# Built in Gun Cabinet and Wardrobe



## todd628 (Mar 8, 2015)

I built these cabinets for friends of mine a few years ago. They were an instant hit until I gave them the invoice.
Anyway my friend asked me to build these cabinets and didn't care the cost. I built the cabinets and was ready to install them. I called and set up a time to put them in for them. While I was at it I invited myself and wife for dinner.
I arrived in the afternoon that day to install them, and was finished and cleaned up by dinner time. my friends had time to look them over before we sat down for dinner.
We enjoyed dinner and a little chit-chat. Then Jack said well how much do we owe you? I told him $3200.00 for the 2 cabinets installed. It was a few minutes before anything was said and then Jack said now what do we really owe you. I thought oh no were in for trouble here. I said it really is $3200.00 Jack. Him and his wife's jaw about hit the floor.
The thing to remember is he owns a fairly big Electrical contracting company, a house call was $150, and that just got them to your house. Then there regular hourly rate was $145.00.
We worked it out and remained friends, but these pictures reminded me don't do work for friends or family. People tend to misconstrue custom furniture maker with handyman. They do not sound alike to me.

Thank you all for your continued support, and especially taking the time to leave comments I truly appreciate them.

Have a blessed evening and have fun making some dust, Todd


----------



## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Beautifully done, Todd.

The other rule is don't take on work without at least a reasonable estimate of the final cost clearly stated. Go in high and watch the relief when they see the lower final bill... 
But yeh; don't do work for friends or relatives. Hell, I've even had recommendations of _other_ trades come back to bite me!
That really hurts when it's your valued subs that get messed with (I'd use stronger language but there's children around).


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

DaninVan said:


> Beautifully done, Todd.
> 
> The other rule is don't take on work without at least a reasonable estimate of the final cost clearly stated. Go in high and watch the relief when they see the lower final bill...
> But yeh; don't do work for friends or relatives. Hell, I've even had recommendations of _other_ trades come back to bite me!
> That really hurts when it's your valued subs that get messed with (I'd use stronger language but there's children around).


well said...


----------



## Bricknhank (Dec 28, 2013)

*Beautiful*

Beautiful cabinets Todd. They look like they are worth every penny. There is a lot of work in those. 
I learned that lesson myself a long time ago. As a Bricklayer/Stonemason occasionally people ask about a fireplace like its a Saturday afternoon project. They are usually shocked at the work and hours that have to go into a solid masonry fireplace including digging down well below the frostline for the footing and foundation. A few friends later I just refused to even talk about fireplaces (or any masonry project for that matter) with friends and give them some contact information for other reputable masons. Often times they never would follow through because of sticker shock.


----------



## paduke (Mar 28, 2010)

That was a great price as in a "friends discounted price". If the pieces are compared to retail pieces they are worth 5,000 installed.
The little extra "favors" NIC drove me from residential work.


----------



## kywoodchopper (Jul 18, 2013)

Those are beautiful. I just got a request for Easter baskets from a lady. Her dad & I have built furniture together, but he refuse to make baskets for her. Her husband was the same way. She said if she wanted something do she had to go outside the family. I will post photos in a few days of the outcome. Malcolm / Kentucky USA


----------



## Gerry Kiernan (Jul 19, 2007)

Beautiful work. I see a lot of hours and skill in those. Working for friends or family can be tricky, and often best avoided.

Gerry


----------



## John Bradshaw (Sep 12, 2010)

Well worth the price.


----------



## BOjr (Dec 1, 2012)

Nice cabinets. I've done a little work for my brother in law and it all went fairly well. I've had several neighbors, all good friends, ask me to be the GC on their house renovations and I've turned them all down. At first they're a little PO at that but they soon get over it. Bottom line, we're all still good friends. Now they only ask for advice which I don't mind giving.

Buck


----------



## chessnut2 (Sep 15, 2011)

Even if you do the job for materials cost and no charge for labor, they still usually have a complaint. I had an in-law who would come to my house and see something I'd made. She would say "Oh, will you make one for me?" Free gratis, of course. Then nit-pick about the finished project.


----------



## ksidwy (Jul 13, 2013)

very well done Todd, Congrats!
Sid


----------



## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Beautiful work Todd. Where I live the lumber would have been about 1/2 the cost.


----------



## 64 ford (Apr 21, 2013)

Very nice Todd. Labor and material for 3200? They got a bargain! We have a business shop and I have my home shop . If it comes out of our business shop it's full price -no discounts at all. From my home shop it's usually free - labor and material. Occasionally, I make some small thing and charge a nominal amount. Most things done at home are small- anywhere from jewelry boxes to desks and tables and are made for friends, relatives and neighbors. Luckily, I'm sort of retired and enjoy wood working and being in the shop. Of course sitting back at the end of the day , looking at the day's progress and tipping a couple cool ones doesn't hurt either!
Dennis


----------



## kp91 (Sep 10, 2004)

Great looking project.


----------



## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Jim; "I *had* an in-law who..."

I noted the _past_ tense; are the police still investigating?


----------



## MEBCWD (Jan 14, 2012)

I had a customer ask if I could build a coffee table and 2 end tables to match the ones they bought at a high end furniture store. They had a new house built with a large open area for the family room and had the coffee table, sofa table and 2 end tables that were a set and the store no longer carried that style. They wanted the 2 end tables to match the ones they had and wanted a new coffee table that was square but matched the style of the other pieces.

They had the original paper work with the brochure listing each piece with pictures and prices. They were a special order item and they had waited 4 months to receive the furniture.

The doors had leaded glass panels so I got an estimate from a glass shop that did leaded glass work. I checked on the cost of the lumber and hardware to match and was lucky enough to find hardware to match. I estimated times based on lead times of the suppliers and figured out a delivery time frame.

When I presented them with the prices that were 15% less than they paid for the end tables and a fair price for the new coffee table that would be less than the company would have charged for the same item if they had offered one and delivery dates they were noticeably upset. 

When I ask if there was a problem with the bid they said they thought I could build the 3 pieces for around 75% of what they paid for the original coffee table and they could get them in 2 or 3 weeks. I told them I was sorry but there was no way I could build them for that and needed more time than 2 to 3 weeks just to get materials.

When invited to a party at their new house I saw they ended up buying 2 odd end tables and a 2X4 built coffee table at a garage sale and painted then with brown spry can paint.

My point is that people do not see an individual craftsman in the same way they see a large company. They want to pay by the number of employees and think that the craftsman should have all the materials and drop everything else and just work on their project.


----------



## mailee (Nov 11, 2005)

Those are stunning cabinets Todd and well worth the price tag for all that work. I have had similar situations with customers but I always give them the price up front and take a 50% deposit so they can't change their mind. I am lucky with friends and relatives though as they all realise I do this for a living and not a hobby.


----------



## belaire445 (Oct 21, 2012)

I had a woman come into my shop asking what the "cheapest" way to make this particular item. I told her the cheapest way was to make it herself. Needless to say I didn't get the job, but with her mindset I knew she was looking for something for next to nothing.


----------



## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

That's one beautiful looking cabinet setup you built there Todd !


----------



## old55 (Aug 11, 2013)

Beautiful cabinets Todd.


----------



## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

MEBCWD said:


> I had a customer ask if I could build a coffee table and 2 end tables to match the ones they bought at a high end furniture store. They had a new house built with a large open area for the family room and had the coffee table, sofa table and 2 end tables that were a set and the store no longer carried that style. They wanted the 2 end tables to match the ones they had and wanted a new coffee table that was square but matched the style of the other pieces.
> 
> They had the original paper work with the brochure listing each piece with pictures and prices. They were a special order item and they had waited 4 months to receive the furniture.
> 
> ...


That's one of my pet peeves , as people want the world but don't want to pay anything . That has to be a tough business to be in some days


----------



## jody495 (Sep 11, 2011)

nice. I built a display cabinet a few years ago,had almost 600 dollars in it in glass,wood andhardware, a friend told me he could buy one at a big box store for about 300. most people don"tunder stand about the time and materials that go into a project.ever thing I make now I give away as presents. keep up the good work. God bless


----------



## todd628 (Mar 8, 2015)

Thanks to all for the positive comments.
Dan, Sometimes friends don't care about an estimate until it is to late.
This friend bills $65.00/hr for his laborers. If I made $25.00 an hour 
I'd be really surprised. I never tried to get rich in all my years, I just wanted 
to be able to pay my bills and buy groceries. Because of knowing what 
he billed I never expected a problem. Thanks for the compliment on the outcome.

Thanks Stick.

Hank, thank you very much. I often did the same thing with people walking in off the street.

Bill, thanks much for taking the time to comment.

Malcolm, thanks alot. Those are the kinds of jobs to get.

Gerry, thank you for taking the time to chime in.

John, thank you

Buck, thanks for your input. I have gotten to the point for family or friends I only do what I can do for them for free.

Jim, Thanks.

Sid, thanks much.

Chuck, thank you. and you are about right on your material estimate.


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Todd...
I did a guesstimate...
I believe you sold yourself short by 1100/1200 dollars and the install would have been extra...


----------



## todd628 (Mar 8, 2015)

Thanks Stick,
I intended to give him as good a price as was possible for me. But that is what kinda hurts, you short yourself for a friend and they still think you over charged them.

Todd


----------



## todd628 (Mar 8, 2015)

Thanks Dennis, for taking the time to comment. And being retired as well I do like the end of the day.

Thanks Doug, I really appreciate those that take time to comment on my posts.

Thanks Mike, I agree completely they they thing woodworkers are just in the same class as handymen. Then they think you should drop whatever you are doing and do their project first.

Thanks Allen, before I retired I took things much more seriously with contracts and sales orders for everything. I am just a little more laid back now.

Thanks Steve, I used to go through that sort of thing as well. As soon as you realize they just want it cheap just send them on there way.

Rick, Thank you for your continued support I appreciate and look forward to your comments.

Ross, same goes for you thank you very much

You all have a blessed evening and weekend, and have some fun making dust, Todd


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

todd628 said:


> thanks stick,
> i intended to give him as good a price as was possible for me. But that is what kinda hurts, you short yourself for a friend and they still think you over charged them.
> 
> Todd


btdt....


----------



## Marco (Feb 21, 2009)

Nice work Todd!

I imagine most people don't know of anyone who could have installed the cabinets correctly let alone built them. They look great~


----------



## dabob (Jan 12, 2010)

I don't understand the gripe with the price - there's gotta be 8-10 grand of guns in there . . beautiful work sir!


----------



## Bob38S (Sep 10, 2006)

Very very nice work.

Beautiful finish and install, they are a credit to you and your skills.

Regards,
Bob


----------



## Stewie D (Jun 15, 2013)

Very nice work.
Working for friends and family ? Hmmm, yeah, been there done that. Now I quote them double what I think I can do it for after quite a few problems in the past which soon sorts out the ones who want something for nothing or the cheapskates who will complain about the price even if you only charge them for materials.

Stewie


----------



## douce1949 (Oct 7, 2011)

*douce1949*

A+ work for -D payouthttp://www.routerforums.com/images/RouterForums_2015/smilies/tango_face_surprise.png


----------



## Jack Wilson (Mar 14, 2010)

Seems to be a consistent theme. Nice work, don't work for family and friends. I won't. If I do, I don't charge, which means I RARELY do. If they offer something then I'm ahead of the game. I won't do it for pay, when I do, because I already know it will just make trouble. There are a couple people that I have occassionally worked for more than once, knowing that they can't afford it anyway, and sometimes they offer a little, I take it, but I never ask. Then there are MANY others that I just won't work for, period.


----------



## Michael32744 (Feb 13, 2013)

How deep are those cabinets Todd?


----------



## old55 (Aug 11, 2013)

I've done a fair bit of welding for people over the years. With the price of steel if anyone wants a job done these days I tell them what lengths, sizes etc. they will need and to have it delivered to my address.

They soon start to work out where a lot of the costs are.


----------



## todd628 (Mar 8, 2015)

Thanks alot guys,
It seems as if we all have to learn that lesson.

Jim, Thanks I use to sub out the installs occasionally, But I always ended up on the job anyway. There was 
always something that wouldn't work, after a quick look and point out how it needed done. It was always the same thing, I didn't think of that.

Bob, I had a rough time not saying that same thing, but I kept my mouth shut and saved a friendship.

Bob 38S, thank you much for the compliment.

Stewie, Thanks for taking the time to comment I do appreciate it.

Tom, Thanks for commenting.

Jack, seems like we have all been there

Michael, the cabinets are probably 18" deep.

Ross, That sounds like a pretty good idea. I have also done that on occasion, the material never shows up. 
So you can scratch that one off your list.

Thanks again to all for your comments, Have a blessed evening, Todd


----------



## kuma (Jul 25, 2014)

My experience (it has happened three times that I can I can think of) is that I will ask somebody for their opinion or their idea on how to approach a project and when I ask how much it will cost (so I can budget) I am told there is no charge. In all three cases they followed up with a bill. I paid each one promptly because I felt they earned their pay, but I did ask for a reduction on one because it was quite high, especially since it started out at 0. I agree that people should state their price, especially since I explicitly asked up front. I want, and need, to know what I am getting into before I start a project.


----------



## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Catherine; YES! Thank you for posting the flip side to the the (our) contractors' complaint.
Indeed, that is a huge problem in that clients are told an off-the top-the-head ballpark price that is wildly out of touch with reality (too low), ie the actual final price. Almost always it will be significantly higher than the guesstimate. 
The _only_ way to get a real-World estimate is to sit down and work out the material and labour. The contractor _has_ to resist the pressure from the client to do an on the spot guesstimate; it's a recipe for conflict down the road!


----------



## one1inamill (Jul 12, 2010)

one of my college instructors made the statement the first day of class that there were two rules for the trade. 1. never take a job without looking at it first. 2. never work for friends and relatives for money. That was some of the best advice I ever received and if someone has a complaint I just say to them that they can do the next project themselves. I am mean aren't I? Since I am very critical of my work I seldom get complaints and most of them are misunderstandings from them not being able to see in their mind what they had described to me.


----------



## jim7fl (Apr 19, 2015)

Todd... I have a minor question about the construction of these cabinets. What was on the other side of the wall where you located the cabinets?

BTW, they appear to be worth more than you quoted, so obviously, you had already discounted for the friends and neighbors customer thing...

Best Regards,

Jim,
White Springs, Florida USA


----------



## Knothead47 (Feb 10, 2010)

Beautiful work! :yes2: My complements on the crafting and finish.

However, I do have one thing- such cabinets are not thief-proof. I speak from personal experience. If I were approached for such a job, I would tell the customer to buy a quality gun safe and I would enclose it in decorative cabinetry. Otherwise, I would not take the job on the basis of security. :no:
Gun owners, photograph your guns and write a complete description and put on DVD. If your guns are ever stolen, they will be entered into a crime record and can be recovered. I heard of one fellow who got one of his guns back after 20 years!


----------



## Lawdes (Nov 26, 2013)

The rule of not working for family and friends transcends most occupations. I am not in the same universe as all of you with woodworking, but I do enjoy trying, and hope to do a lot more when I retire in a year. However, and this is a huge mea culpa, I am a lawyer, and about 30 years ago established my own iron clad rule....never represent family or friends...for free or not! They don't think of you as a (insert area of expertise)....but think of you as Dad, brother, uncle, neighbor, etc. All of you are absolutely correct and are exercising outstanding judgment and self preservation! By the way, outstanding work on those cabinets...I would like to be able to be half as talented as you'all!


----------



## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Hey, Don; welcome! Thanks for that perspective; how true, eh? Like the apocryphal Doctor at a cocktail party...
'Listen, while I've got you here, I have a question for you...' 
If you had a moment you might like to start a thread, and say 'Hi!' to everyone...this thread's been here for a few days and most members will miss your first comment, here.
Cheers,
-Dan


----------



## todd628 (Mar 8, 2015)

Jim, the room the cabinets are in is a guest room. the room behind the cabinets is another bedroom.

Al, after about 40 years in the trade I would agree with the advise you received.

Dan, you are right their is always another side to a story.

Cathrine, In all my years I would have never thought of giving someone an invoice larger than the quote.
It does not matter how much money I have to eat I do not go over my estimate. However their have been a few times I have run into things unforeseen and have gone to my customer and explained what happened, at that point I give them the chance to help with the overrun with as much or little as they wish. That is then the end of the story....

Thanks to all of you for your comments, have a blessed day, Todd


----------



## geedub (Mar 20, 2006)

A bargain. Well done. Sorry they don't understand the value. I also avoid friends and relatives as clients. I have gifted work in the past rather than enter into a business deal with loved ones.


----------



## old55 (Aug 11, 2013)

Welcome to the forum Don.


----------



## old55 (Aug 11, 2013)

Welcome to the forum Michael.


----------



## old55 (Aug 11, 2013)

Welcome to the forum Catherine.


----------



## old55 (Aug 11, 2013)

Welcome to the forum Jim.


----------



## freddag (Jul 26, 2011)

Nice work! I would say inexpensive at double the price! Some people have know idea how much things cost.


----------



## N'awlins77 (Feb 25, 2011)

Beautiful work there Todd. Can't believe they were just not overjoyed over that. I had some neighbors, who after seeing my cabinets I built, start asking about me building different things for them. I warned them that even if I charged a "friendly" hourly wage for my time, with the cost of materials, and that "friendly" hourly wage, they could buy what they wanted cheaper then I can build it. I told them that the materials would be better stuff, then what the box stores sell, but they would/could cost at least, twice as much for me to custom build them. Never heard another thing about building anything for them!!


----------



## LONGHAIR (Mar 8, 2008)

I read through the entire thread and completely agree with most of what was said.... People just have no idea what things really cost in a "one-off" custom piece. 
Factory made furniture has the huge advantage of volume. They engineer it once and build thousands of the same thing. The volume purchase of materials, the time savings of multiple runs of the same parts, the repetitive actions/speed of factory assembly people and lack of attention to detail all contribute to cheaper goods.
All of the posts are positive except maybe the one cautioning about locks.... but that is a rather moot point in a "display" cabinet with glass panel doors. Locks would only keep out children and if you didn't have any(or the were grown/gone) it wouldn't matter. A thief just breaks the glass.
I do have one design concern with them though. Simply my own opinion, but I don't like the look of the tiny panel in the top drawer front of the glass door unit. Generally that is done with a simple slab that has the same outer profile. You could also go down to two drawers, making them bigger, eliminating it totally? The rails and styles are just too wide for a drawer that small.

I build reception desks, book cases, tables, etch. for a custom cabinet/millwork shop and despite a team of people who pour over these things long before the drawings hit the shop floor, stuff like this still happens occasionally. Details of how something fits actually fits together or how it would look are overlooked. There is also the fact that many of these things have to be broken down into smaller sections to travel, fit through doorways or into elevators, and then be reassembled.... by someone else. How things "fit" and "feel" are hard to judge on scaled drawings of projects that may be 20 feet long.

Then again it may just be me, if that's what the customer wants, so be it. I can't say I have loved everything I have built


----------



## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Nice to see this thread resurrected just to remind myself of what an incredible job you did on that project Todd .


----------

