# planer board snipe



## hintop (Jan 14, 2013)

planer board snipe-delta td 305 12.5 planer.only used maybe 6 times. boards different lengths does not matter.snipes from the infeed side. i have adjusted in and out feeds and still get board snipe. i have noticed that the stainless plate bed underneath blade has some down motion. is that the problem? when i feed board the back of the board raises- so i press down to stay level-but no change. should i make a sled ? if so, a simple plan for a sled.


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## mgmine (Jan 16, 2012)

A snipe is a fact of life with every planer I have used. I now just make the piece longer and cut off the end.


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## hintop (Jan 14, 2013)

yes sounds good but if i do not have much board length to loose?


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## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

Henry, pushing down on the back end of the board is what you _don't_ want to do. That will _cause_ snipe. Lifting the back end slightly should help. If you have more than one board to plane to the same thickness, running them end to end will eliminate snipe on all but the beginning of the first and end of the last. Extended infeed and outfeed support will also reduce snipe. There is _much_ published info on this subject. A quick google search on "reducing planer snipe" should yield more info than you will likely want to read!


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

mgmine said:


> A snipe is a fact of life wit ch every planer I have used. I now just make the piece longer and cut off the end.


Art,
As shown earlier on this forum, can't recall where, but snipe can be elimated in most cases by supporting the workpiece so it does not drop down as comes off of the the first roller
as the workpiece finishes its travel throught the planer. I have a Delta planer and if I don't support the workpiece as described above, I will get snipe every time in boards longer than about 18". But therer is zero snipe when those same boards are supported by hand as decribed above. I em pretty sure that you are aware of this of course, and what you say about every planer having the problem is probably true due to the way the workpieces are moved through any planer. Understanding the way the the front and rear rollers work is the key to understanding snipe with a planer. I only became aware of this through this formum and take no credit for knowing about it on my own by the way.

In the question that started this thread it is stated that the snipe is occuring on the front of the board, not the rear as would be the case in what I understand. Since I am not certain if I am understanding this for sure, I of course can not relate to the problem, but if the plate below the rollers and the rollers themselves are not on a common plane I suppose that a problem coujld occure. However, I believe that the rollers are spring loaded and this, I would think at first blush would remedy any problem there. Hope to hear more on this matter as I sure am courious if the snipe descriped is indeed on the front of the board and the rear of the board.

That's my two cents worth on the matter, will be watching this thread and subsequent posts 

Jerry


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## GulfcoastGuy (Feb 27, 2012)

Dmeadows said:


> Henry, pushing down on the back end of the board is what you _don't_ want to do. That will _cause_ snipe. Lifting the back end slightly should help. If you have more than one board to plane to the same thickness, running them end to end will eliminate snipe on all but the beginning of the first and end of the last. Extended infeed and outfeed support will also reduce snipe. There is _much_ published info on this subject. A quick google search on "reducing planer snipe" should yield more info than you will likely want to read!


Also you can Google "planer penny trick" and you'll see that biasing the in and out feed support for increased lift is the direction to go. When I unboxed my planer and checked the tables, sure enough, they were adjusted up by, you guessed it, one penny.

GCG


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

GulfcoastGuy said:


> Also you can Google "planer penny trick" and you'll see that biasing the in and out feed support for increased lift is the direction to go. When I unboxed my planer and checked the tables, sure enough, they were adjusted up by, you guessed it, one penny.
> 
> GCG


One such:
Penny trick - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum

...I like the idea of the sacrificial stock in front of and behind, so the snipe happens in the sacrificial stock.


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## Sawdust Don (Nov 1, 2012)

I dont know that planer, or if it can be adjusted.
If it has a pressure bar between the cutter head and out feed roller, the problem can be there "set too high".
If the machine has table rollers, those can be set too high also.
If the machine has a chip breaker- a pressure bar between the front roller and cutter head, there might be a problem there.
Machines with shorter distance in the cutter head unit are more likely to have snipe.

Having to cut off a board because of snipe would be a bad deal for me, the cost of the wasted wood, could exceed the cost of a good planer in a short time.

Some planers, snipe cant be eliminated totaly, but can be reduced so as wood is not wasted.

I held out, and found a planer that has zero snipe problems-none at all. That is, after careful set up of the components.


Don


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## greenacres2 (Dec 23, 2011)

Dewalt's tech support answer on setting the infeed/outfeed tables on the DW735 "a dime's thickness above the table". Anything up to about 6' long never has noticible snipe, i don't have the courage to try anything longer without setting up a stand!!


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

GulfcoastGuy said:


> Also you can Google "planer penny trick" and you'll see that biasing the in and out feed support for increased lift is the direction to go. When I unboxed my planer and checked the tables, sure enough, they were adjusted up by, you guessed it, one penny.
> 
> GCG



Thanks for the tip, Patrick.

I will try that.

I usually hold the end up slightly on both the infeed and outfeed side, and this seems to work for me.


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## bcfunburst (Jan 14, 2012)

Sawdust Don said:


> I dont know that planer, or if it can be adjusted.
> If it has a pressure bar between the cutter head and out feed roller, the problem can be there "set too high".
> If the machine has table rollers, those can be set too high also.
> If the machine has a chip breaker- a pressure bar between the front roller and cutter head, there might be a problem there.
> ...


----------------------

Please tell us what planer you found, with no snipe after adjustments, Don!!??


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## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

bcfunburst said:


> ----------------------
> 
> Please tell us what planer you found, with no snipe after adjustments, Don!!??


+1
Kinda wondering about that one myself!


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## Gene Howe (Jul 10, 2007)

Almost totally eliminated snipe on my Delta with a sled. Bought a length of laminate covered shelving material at Lowes and slid it in over the stock tables. Added a strip of solid on the bottom of the in feed end to keep it from sliding through while planing.
Works well.


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Jerry Bowen said:


> Art,
> As shown earlier on this forum, can't recall where, but snipe can be elimated in most cases by supporting the workpiece so it does not drop down as comes off of the the first roller


Hi Jerry

That's perfectly correct. If the planer had a long enough bed snipe could be all but eliminated. The problem is that the infeed and outfeed (pressure) rollers are actually quite close together and the springs they are controlled by could never really be made strong enough not to allow a bit of dip at the outfeed side, at least not without damaging the wood fibres. Bigger industrial machines actually have separate pressure bars in addition to the feed rollers and these, together with the longer thicknesser beds industrial machines tend to have, make a better job of it. In fact some machines like the Felder/Hammer machines and Martins offer bed extensions (and even roller table extensions) on their thicknessers whilst the safety equipment firm Aigner offer clip-on after-market extended support beds - all these are sadly out of the reach of most hobby woodworkers on cost grounds: 









_Above: Felder 500mm (20in) table extension on a spindle moulder (shaper). Felder and Hammer thicknessers all have the front and rear edges of their tables machined to take this type of extension. The Aigner aftermarket system is fundamentally very similar

Below: Felder roller outfeed extension on industrial thicknesser_









These medium to heavyweight machines have rise and fall beds and are more difficult to deal with than the rising/falling heads found on some low to middle market machines on sale in the USA. Fundamentally every lightweight machine I've ever seen suffers from too little support on both infeed and outfeed sides of the cutterhead to avoid snipe (I'm familiar with the Makita 2012NB, for example) and many smaller commercial machines are little better which is why industrial machinery makers have for more than a century offered the adjustable roller stand, uised in pairs, as a solution. Even hobby machinery firms offer lightweight versions of these nowadays:









_Above: Single roller roller stands

Below: Multiple roller stand_
















_Above: A useful variation, the roller/ball stand in roller format

Below: Detail of the head showing the transfer balls which can be flipped up in place of the single roller. These are very handy for machining long, curved workpieces_









Using this type of roller support stand on infeed and outfeed sides of thicknessers (and other machines like spindle moulders, etc) was and still is standard practice in commercial shops when handling large dimension or extra long timbers but for thinner and shorter stock such as 4 x 2in the cost of the material vs. cost of labour, etc often mitigates in favour of cutting over length to start with and taking the snipe off with a cross cut saw after thicknessing rather than adjusting the roller stands every time the bed is raised or lowered, especially in softwoods. 

It is the lack of adequate support which is key to curing this problem, although even then there may still be a small amount of snipe depending on how the machine is constructed. There was a very interesting article in FWW many years ago by an aerospace engneer, Greg Colegrave, about elimination of snipe which took the approach of building a very accurate, long through feed bed onto a low-cost Delta 12in lunch box planer (what I call a thicknesser). The article was subsewuently reproduced in the book "Ingenious Jigs and Shop Accessories" (Taunton Press, 1999, ISBN 1-56158-302-2) and it seems to me that this would go a long way towards taking a $300 machine and getting $6,000 performance. I still have the book if you'd like to contact me. 



Jerry Bowen said:


> In the question that started this thread it is stated that the snipe is occuring on the front of the board, not the rear as would be the case in what I understand.


You are, of course right. Snipe is most commonly associated with the back end of the board and is often down to the board dropping as it exits the thicknesser, hwoever is can occur at the infeed end if the work is not held dead level when it is fed into the machine. The problem is generally down to the workpiece being presented by the operator with the back end too low. IMHO, and can be cured by using a properly set-up infeed support stand/roller

There are potentially some other issues with smaller planers, but IMHO they are minor in comparison to the material support problems many people experience 

Hopefully this should clarify matters. Apologies for the length of post

Regards

Phil


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## Bradleytavares (Feb 25, 2012)

Yep, lifting up slightly on tag end of both in/out feed seems to do the trick with most every planer I've used. Longer stock is always the best answer since we should factor in the lost waste. I have a DeWalt two speed, three knife, 13" wide and I think it's a 735 model that seems to not give me snipe unless the material is long and/or heavy due to the mechanical advantage causing the end under the last roller to lift that end up and into the cutterhead.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

I will 2nd. that Gene, I do it that way also and it works for me also..

=====



Gene Howe said:


> Almost totally eliminated snipe on my Delta with a sled. Bought a length of laminate covered shelving material at Lowes and slid it in over the stock tables. Added a strip of solid on the bottom of the in feed end to keep it from sliding through while planing.
> Works well.


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## Sawdust Don (Nov 1, 2012)

This may seem over the top to some. I found it in Montana on CL for $600.
A 1963 Powermatic model 160-16", out of a school, and in great condition.
It weighs 1100lbs, but I managed to rig it with a chain fall from an opening I made to my attic, and then using a chain puller, I eased down the stairs to my basement work shop with a ramp on the stairs.

I did alot of research on the Old Woodworking machine forum, asked alot of questions, read the manuals, and followed Bob Vahauns set up proceedures.
These are pretty basic and simple machines, though there are alot of adjustments that need to be made.
The table rollers are lever adjustable, where they are raised up for rough sawn wood, and lowered for finish work.
There are machines considered better, but these are known to be super reliable, not prone to breaking, or have expensive worm gears in the feed drive like some Delta models.
Can be adjusted for no snipe.
The feed drive on this is variable speed using belts, with really heavy gears on the feed rollers
The minimum board length is 13 1/2" maximum thickness 6", minimum thickness 1/8".
This one was already converted to 220v single phase 5hp, and came with Esta Dispoz A Blades, that I noticed is an option on the new Grizzly planers.
I almost bought a Grizzly 15", but I am glad I kept looking and found this one.


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## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

Don, I wont argue about whether that machine is snipe free. But really comparing an 1100 lb $10,000 in today's dollars(or more) machine to the 80 lb $400 machines many woodworkers use today isn't really any comparison at all. Glad you got a great deal on it and was able to get it into your shop, but I don't think that is the answer for most hobbyist or even small shop operators!


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## Sawdust Don (Nov 1, 2012)

Duane,
I think you would be surprised what many are putting in thier garages and basements.
Equipment like this most of the time can be found very cheap.
The weights can be more then one thinks that can be handled, but, there are ways to deal with moving these machines, that actually is not back breaking at all.
I didnt even lift the weight of 80lbs in the entire move of this planer.
Perhaps another train of thought envolved regarding older industrial wood and metal working machines for home use. There are many others doing this----and much worse then me---3000+lb machines.
This is next to my 1000lb Delta 12/14" table saw in my basement!

Don


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## Bradleytavares (Feb 25, 2012)

Go get 'em Don! I'm stoked to find any tool like that... but not for my basement. Ground level shop only. Things can be lowered down easier than getten' 'em back up, ha, ha.


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## Sawdust Don (Nov 1, 2012)

Bradley,
It only gets worse!
This is my one car garage, filled with metal working machines.









Anyway, I ran some wood through the planer tonight, its going to save me alot of time.
Well worth the effort involved.

Don


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## Gene Howe (Jul 10, 2007)

Yeah Brad,
My body works that way, too!:lol:



Bradleytavares said:


> Go get 'em Don! I'm stoked to find any tool like that... but not for my basement. Ground level shop only. Things can be lowered down easier than getten' 'em back up, ha, ha.


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## Bradleytavares (Feb 25, 2012)

Nice garage, honestly! I'd like to touch everything and check 'em all out...


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Sawdust Don said:


> The weights can be more then one thinks that can be handled, but, there are ways to deal with moving these machines, that actually is not back breaking at all......
> ........There are many others doing this----and much worse then me---3000+lb machines.
> This is next to my 1000lb Delta 12/14" table saw in my basement!


Hi Don

Getting a machine in or out is only one part of the equation. That 3000 lb 30in thickness planer you can pick up for $500 will require a power supply big enough to start and run a 15 or 20HP three-phase main motor, with maybe a 2HP feeder. Possibly a tad much for a domestic supply.......

The issue about snipe and machine weight is very relevant to the original question. I'd hazard a guess that you Powermatic has an extremely rigid cast-iron table and is fitten with both feed rollers and pressure bars, which all go to reducing snipe, but it's all relative. You may not get snipe on a 3ft long piece of 6 x 1in timber, but how well would it do on a 16 foot long piece of 9 x 3in pitch pine? Without extra support I'll bet you there would be visible snipe. Lightweight machines tend to flex quite a bit so they need all the (additional) help they can get

Regards

Phil


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## Sawdust Don (Nov 1, 2012)

Common sense would have to come into play on 16foot lumber, for sure it would lift up the upper rollers against the pressure springs and force the board into the cutter and cause snipe on this and any planer.
The machine will snipe if not properly adjusted.
Under normal conditions, with work properly supported this machine, and others like it will not have those problems on any lengths.
From my view, the cost of many woods, and the work I am doing, snipe is not acceptable at all.
Seriously, From my perspective, the consumer wood working equipment on the market is cheap junk, and does not work very well.
However, publications and their advertisers say plastic table saws and the other equipment are great.
But, looking a little deeper and considering others thoughts and experience. i found for myself that the heavier equipment made in years past is far better, and can be had for less money.

Don


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## hintop (Jan 14, 2013)

thanx guys i will take in consideration of all these experiences with planer snipe and put them to the test!


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## Mark55 (Sep 6, 2012)

*This is an option*

If you had enough room you could run some scrap lumber along side of it about 5" longer this way your good board will make it through and the scrap will take the snipe.


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Mark55 said:


> If you had enough room you could run some scrap lumber along side of it about 5" longer this way your good board will make it through and the scrap will take the snipe.


Hi Mark

I don't think that will work. You still aren't supporting the material adequately as it enters and leaves the machine and you'll probably still get snipe. Snipe is caused more by the timber pivoting under its' own weight on the edge of the thicknesser table, than by the machine itself flexing.

In any case if there is any variation between the thicknesses of the two boards you can get a situation where one of the pieces is not in contact with the feed roller, but both of them are in contact with the spinning cutter head. The one not in contact with the feed roller can then be ejected (kicked-back) at the operator with considerable force, rather like a javelin. People in commercial shops have been killed and badly injured by just this sort of accident. Large industrial thicknessers (20in wide and above) incorporate independently sprung sectional feed rollers to circumvent this, but often in trade shops on smaller machines you'll find a notice on the infeed side of a thicknesser, *"Warning: Feed only one piece at a time"* for just this reason

Regards

Phil


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Mark

I do it that way also and it works for me also,but I do have a 4 ft.bolted down to the base plate so I have more support for the stock under the cutters

==


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## Mark55 (Sep 6, 2012)

Phil,
By all means you are correct. I should have been more specific. I have a very small planner and I use this technique from time to time and it does work. But all my material is the same thickness scrap and my good piece. This technique works for me on my machine but I did not take into consideration big commercial machines . 

So for that reason I would not recommend this as per phil's enlightenment on the subject.
Thanks Phil for bringing this to attention.


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