# That Darn Glue.....



## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

I'm still working on the table with the frame around it, the one that I cut up a few days ago and started over on. Today I spent considerable time and effort getting the frame to fit and when it was clamped up it really looked good, I was satisfied, it met my standeard, but when I added glue which I had to do one side at at time due to using biscuits to join the frame to the edges of the table top, everything changed. I finally got the last two parts of the frame in place and are clamped up, but the addition of the glue seems to have changed the dimentions of the parts ever so slightly so that the good fit isn't as good as it was when all of the parts were dry. Things will problably sand out alright but for now I think that the problem was or is the addition of the glue. Has anybody else run into this issue or it just my imagination??

Jerry


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Did you let the center dry/set before you glued the frame on? Wondering if the glue squeezed out of the center section , so in effect shrank.

All guesses, but yes, sometimes glue will add some width. Glue may sometimes add few thousandths... But not enough glue and not a good bond. They say too much glue and you'l have a weak joint... But on a glueup, the excess glue squeezes out from being clamped... and you have a good bond. You end up scraping and sanding off the excess.


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## denniswoody (Dec 11, 2011)

Glue is slippery so probably the wood slipped a little when the glue was added.


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

I guess that I panicked a little to soon, after the glue set on the last parts and I took the clamps off all was O.K. Yes, I did have to sand the joining edges but that was to be expected, so far I'm pretty happy with the results but now I now that any change in humidity may well ruin things so I am going to do my best to seal everything as best I can. Lot to do now to finish the legs do some staining and add the Tung oil. 

Jerry


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

You can have too tight a joint and it dry fit but not fit together with the glue or worse, split the wood. Which glue you use can make a difference too. I use to use Lee Valley's 202GF glue, the GF stood for gap filler. It was good for loose fitting joints but very bad for tight fitting ones. I had to learn the hard way.


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## neville9999 (Jul 22, 2010)

Jerry I would be happy to give an opinion if you say what glue you used and how long it took to dry. NGM


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> You can have too tight a joint and it dry fit but not fit together with the glue or worse, split the wood. Which glue you use can make a difference too. I use to use Lee Valley's 202GF glue, the GF stood for gap filler. It was good for loose fitting joints but very bad for tight fitting ones. I had to learn the hard way.


Even though it holds well, Gorilla brand wood glue is known to expand... and says that in it's instructions. One reason I don't use that brand.


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

neville9999 said:


> Jerry I would be happy to give an opinion if you say what glue you used and how long it took to dry. NGM


Neville,
I use Tite Bond III, I let it set for about hour and a half in a pretty warm enviorment, knowing that it needs to actually set over night, or I suspect that this is true. As I said, it was surprising how much the glue caused the wood to expand and how well it came back into it's original size after setting. Remember the frame corner were mitered and the the table top was trimmed to fit inside of the frame without adding any pressure to the inside edges of the frame that would cause the dimentions to changed, but the edge of the table top, when inside of the frame were making contact with the frame. I say all of this to tell you how careful I was in the cutting and fitting so that the frame's fit around the table top was as close to be as perfect as I could it. This fit being so close is why I was able to see the effect of the glue while it was still wet. I'm talking maybe just few thousands of an inch just enough to bug me after all of the effort that was put in to get the fit right before adding the glue.

Jerry


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

MAFoElffen said:


> Even though it holds well, Gorilla brand wood glue is known to expand... and says that in it's instructions. One reason I don't use that brand.


Both the LV GF glue and Gorilla are good glues, just not for every job. That's why I believe in keeping a few different ones around. I don't think there is one glue that is perfect for every job.


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> Both the LV GF glue and Gorilla are good glues, just not for every job. That's why I believe in keeping a few different ones around. I don't think there is one glue that is perfect for every job.


Charles,
Interesting observation, I'll have to give that some consideration, I had never thought about it. What different glues do you suggest would be good to have on hand and what are the uses for each of them and what do you think about Titd Bond III?

Jerry


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

I use a lot of Titebond 3 for general woodworking. Weldbond is also very good and dries clear but doesn't have quite the weather resistance, but then how many projects require that? I think it may hold a little better but that is just an opinion. Weldbond has more uses and is recommended for more uses. Pick up the little pamphlet for it if you see one and have a good read.

Another glue I won't do without anymore is this one. Titebond - Product I use it when gluing to particle board and mdf or to the surface of melamine or HPL. Nothing works better on porous materials like edge gluing to particle board. I built some slide out drawers using 5/8 melamine coated particle board and ran sides around the drawer of 3/4 x 2 1/2 tall birch rabbeted to cover the edge and sit on the surface of the melamine. Then I discovered a measuring error and had to take them apart and I broke one or two pieces of the birch before it would let go.

Another glue I always have around is this one Lee Valley Tools - Important Announcement . It stays 100% water soluble forever so it is good for things like gluing plugs over screws or dowels where you need to clean all the glue residue off so that it won't interfere with the finish. If you use those little buttons to cover holes I would use this for that too. I also usually use the fish glue for gluing sandpaper to sanding jigs because you can use reuse them by wetting the sandpaper. Lee Valley advertised it for blind nailing where you would peel back a sliver of wood with a chisel , then drive your nail and glue the sliver back down with the fish glue. When dry you wiped off any residue. I tried once or twice and it is virtually invisible.

If you are gluing something that has to be waterproof then it is either a polyurethane glue or an epoxy. I have used auto body fibre glass resin for some of these jobs as it is a lot cheaper than epoxy glues. It has about 3-4 times the holding power of wood glue and will fill a gap to a point.

I have a few more but those are the ones I consider essential Jerry.


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

Some photos of the table top I've been talking about in this thread.

Jerry


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## Gaffboat (Mar 11, 2012)

Jerry Bowen said:


> Some photos of the table top I've been talking about in this thread.
> 
> Jerry


Nice looking miter joints, Jerry. I always struggle with them and at best think mine have been just okay. Yours look great.


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

Gaffboat said:


> Nice looking miter joints, Jerry. I always struggle with them and at best think mine have been just okay. Yours look great.


All of the credit for the miter joints go to incra. When their miter gauges are calibrated, cutting good miter joints is as simple as cross cutting a piece of wood, no fuss at all. But tnanks for nice words.

Jerry


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## elrodqfudp (Sep 5, 2011)

*Would this have worked?*

What if you had made the frame first and then trimmed the center to fit?


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

elrodqfudp said:


> What if you had made the frame first and then trimmed the center to fit?


That's exactly what I did, but did not glue the frame together first as I used biscuits to join the the frame to the top. So I had to add the pre-fitted frame to the top in parts.

Jerry


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## bdusten (Mar 22, 2013)

Thanks for the post Chuck I never thought to use auto resin. I'm going to give it a try I was using pc 11. That stuff is just so darn expensive.


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

bdusten said:


> Thanks for the post Chuck I never thought to use auto resin. I'm going to give it a try I was using pc 11. That stuff is just so darn expensive.[/QUOTE
> 
> Did some more work on the table top and wanted to send more photos but these photos are more to point out a glaring mistake that I had not thought about until I took the pictures. I did not match the wood color at all, I was so focused on cutting the parts out just right and completely missed the issue of matching the wood better, i'm actually a little embarrassed, but it's part of learning and I will work on the issue in my next project, just can't learn without making mistakes and trying to fix them. Any way, the tope was sanded to it's completion, I used Aqua Coat to fill the wood, then used a blend of laquer thinner and Belen stain for the first staining session, then added a coat of Old Master's in a cherry color. After it was dry I mixed thinner and tung oil half and half and drenched the entire table top with it, let it set and then wiped dry to the touch, will let it set for a day now and begin the straight tung oil finish tomorrow.
> 
> ...


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

Jerry...

Hopefully the "learning" never ends


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

bdusten said:


> Thanks for the post Chuck I never thought to use auto resin. I'm going to give it a try I was using pc 11. That stuff is just so darn expensive.


I learned by accident. I used about a 1 foot square of some pretty good fir ply to mix a batch on for something else I was doing then laid something on it when done. When it was dry I tried to part them and tore patches of the top lamination off. There was no way I could separate the resin from that ply. That's when the light bulb came on. The only bad thing about using it is that it is very ridged, i.e. no give. There are some blends made for woodworking that will give very slightly without fracturing but you're back into the money again.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Jerry I worked with some guys at a mantle factory that could use toners to even out the colors in situations like yours. It isn't always possible to get a perfect match in the woods but once they were done it was hard to tell. I wish I had spent more time trying to learn what they were doing but we were all busy so I never really got the chance. If you can find someone who can do that take the time to learn how.


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Pre-Catalyzed Powdered Urea Resin*

Gentlemen, you may want to give this product a look. Its a pre-cat powdered urea resin. I used it on a round glue up I did a few months back.. 8 layers of a 3/32' veneer I made were used. I used this resin between layers, put in form, clamped down and let sit for 24 hours. The mold was 1/2 of a 24" diameter round. When I removed the 16 clamps and pulled the laminate off, spring back was less than 1/8 of an inch and remained that way until I began assembly of the table top. So that kinda gives you an idea of its rigidity. I mixed with water, by weight, not volume and achieved excellent results. Applied with a roller. Open time is petty generous, give or take in a cool environment. The warmer the shop, the less open time. Once applied you do have a decentl window for tweeking , in a warmer shop. However, even in a warm shop, specs indicate a very generous pot life. 
Shelf life is one year, BUT,, the fellow who turned me onto this stuff has been using it for years and said that if you keep it dry and in a cool place, he's had stuff last an easy 2-3 years. I emptied the bucket, dumped it all into a heavy zip lock baggy and folded over..stuck back into bucket... good stuff IMHO


There are also Urea Formaldehyde Resins that off gas and special attention should be paid to their use. The formaldehyde gases can be quite dangerous. 



http://www.cpadhesives.com/woodwork...e-catalyzed-powdered-urea-resin-25-pound-pail


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

I've tried the Weldwood which appears to be the same type glue and I wasn't impressed with it. It's supposed to be waterproof but it didn't hold very well in an outdoor application I used it for. I never bothered using it for an indoor application but I see it is recommended for veneering.


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

I do believe you are right Chuck. Looking at the Weldwood specs, there is no mention of it being waterproof and the CP product says its is a type II adhesive, water resistant, NOT water proof. Good thing the table is staying indoors. CP does list water proof resins..


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> Jerry I worked with some guys at a mantle factory that could use toners to even out the colors in situations like yours. It isn't always possible to get a perfect match in the woods but once they were done it was hard to tell. I wish I had spent more time trying to learn what they were doing but we were all busy so I never really got the chance. If you can find someone who can do that take the time to learn how.


Charles, 
Thanks for the tip. Wish I could get a photo of the table top without the contrast that you see in the photo, it just not exist in reality. I probably need to shoot the picture outside without the flash. I'll give it a try. Jerry


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## neville9999 (Jul 22, 2010)

Jerry Bowen said:


> Neville,
> I use Tite Bond III, I let it set for about hour and a half in a pretty warm enviorment, knowing that it needs to actually set over night, or I suspect that this is true. As I said, it was surprising how much the glue caused the wood to expand and how well it came back into it's original size after setting. Remember the frame corner were mitered and the the table top was trimmed to fit inside of the frame without adding any pressure to the inside edges of the frame that would cause the dimentions to changed, but the edge of the table top, when inside of the frame were making contact with the frame. I say all of this to tell you how careful I was in the cutting and fitting so that the frame's fit around the table top was as close to be as perfect as I could it. This fit being so close is why I was able to see the effect of the glue while it was still wet. I'm talking maybe just few thousands of an inch just enough to bug me after all of the effort that was put in to get the fit right before adding the glue.
> 
> Jerry


Jerry I have used Tight Bond 2 and 3 myself and they are both very good modern PVA adhesives, one of the first things that I learned as an apprentice is that a join straight off the saw is not as good as you think it is so for many years I have always improved that joint, the traditional way is to use a shooting block and a very sharp plane, for picture type frames then the block is the 45 deg one and I would always cut my item a small amount 'over size' then put it on the shooting block and hit the join with that sharp plane's blade and you will be amazed at how much better the join can get, one other way is to set up a fence on a linisher sander and lightly sand the join but that is not always a good idea because if the belt is not very tight then you can make it worse and round over the leading and exit corners so that is not the best way and the shooting block is the answer, as an apprentice then I learned to sharpen my plane blade so that it would shave the hairs off my arm and you need them that sharp, the next time you make a frame then try that and get that join very good before you glue it up. NGM


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

neville9999 said:


> Jerry I have used Tight Bond 2 and 3 myself and they are both very good modern PVA adhesives, one of the first things that I learned as an apprentice is that a join straight off the saw is not as good as you think it is so for many years I have always improved that joint, the traditional way is to use a shooting block and a very sharp plane, for picture type frames then the block is the 45 deg one and I would always cut my item a small amount 'over size' then put it on the shooting block and hit the join with that sharp plane's blade and you will be amazed at how much better the join can get, one other way is to set up a fence on a linisher sander and lightly sand the join but that is not always a good idea because if the belt is not very tight then you can make it worse and round over the leading and exit corners so that is not the best way and the shooting block is tNhe answer, as an apprentice then I learned to sharpen my plane blade so that it would shave the hairs off my arm and you need them that sharp, the next time you make Nframe then try that and get that join very good before you glue it up. NGM


Neville,
They say that there are no dumb questions, but, what is a shooting block. And I have never owned or used a hand plane, you're probably shaking your heard but I can't learn if I don't ask. 

I usually use biscuits In the corners of my picture frames and this has worked well for me. However, on a frame for a table top that I plan on routing and edge like a Roman Ogee for example, the biscuits in the corners aren't practical as you don't want to cut into a biscuit as it won't add tp the appearance of the edge.

Jerry


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Jerry, the fellow in this video uses a shooting board about 3 1/2 minutes into the video. Creating a perfect mitered joint with a shooting board - YouTube How he joins the 2 sides together near the end of the video is also interesting. 

I like what "Careful Carpenter" says down in the comments.


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Jerry-

As you said "picture frame"... On trim, at 1M homes, we automatically switched over to including biscuits in the trim we installed... Holding miters together better in thin stock by adding more glue surface to the mitered joint.

In a table top, you have more glue surface. But it could also be said that if you cut a biscuit or tenon in a table top band edge (that's what your "frame" edging is) would be planned to be cut... not to extend into the profile edge. Whereas with dovetail key or mitered spline joints, those visual joints are incorporated into the design.


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## ChadPMIK (Jun 28, 2013)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> ...I use to use Lee Valley's 202GF glue, the GF stood for gap filler. It was good for loose fitting joints but very bad for tight fitting ones. I had to learn the hard way.


LOL, sounds like the kind of glue I should be using. If I get 1 out of 5 joints in a project to be nice and tight fitting I consider that a win.


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## neville9999 (Jul 22, 2010)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> Jerry, the fellow in this video uses a shooting board about 3 1/2 minutes into the video. Creating a perfect mitered joint with a shooting board - YouTube How he joins the 2 sides together near the end of the video is also interesting.
> 
> I like what "Careful Carpenter" says down in the comments.


Charles thanks for posting that video as it is exactly what I was referring to, shooting blocks and shooting planes are how you get perfect joins, just listen to the cut when he uses the plane and hear that very sharp plane slice the join to a perfect finish, I will bet that when he learned to sharpen that blade like that then he tested it by shaving the hairs of his own arm, it's a guy thing to do when you think that the blade is correct, nice video. Neville


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> Jerry, the fellow in this video uses a shooting board about 3 1/2 minutes into the video. Creating a perfect mitered joint with a shooting board - YouTube How he joins the 2 sides together near the end of the video is also interesting.
> 
> I liwke what "Careful Carpenter" says down in the comments.


Charles,
I just watched the video, great information. If I had seen this before I spent all that money on the Incra Miter Gauge and sled, I could sure have saved a lot of money and probably taken more pride in my work in that it would all have been done by hand instead of using power tools. I must say that I was impressed. On difference however in what the guy in the video did and what I like to do and that is that I like to put biscuits into the end grain on my miter joints. Also of course, is the fact that his method of cutting his 45s was crude, but the way he finished them up with the shooting board was really neat. The Incra Miter Gauge does cut the 45s perfect and with the Express sled with stops, the opposing parts are kept to the same length but what was shown in the video would allow the same results. Just doing everthing with hand tools really is intriguing and cause me to re-think a lot of things, but I'm stuck with all of these power tools and so it's a little late for me to retreat to what was shown in the video, but I sure did like what I saw, thanks for sending me the link to it.

Jerry






I


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

I don't think that there are very many of us that are willing to give up our power tools and go back to doing everything by hand. It is an option for truing up something that didn't turn out perfectly. I use many hand tools for fine tuning. I think it might have been John Schaben that said quite a while back that he regularly used a shooting board to true up his miters. I don't have one or one of the planes that you need but I am considering it.

You still could use biscuits at the corners but the method in the video is a good option and actually helps keep every thing tight until the glue dries. Plus it becomes a visual feature which is the reason I use splines from time to time. I like the look of them and they make a very strong joint. Just more ways to skin the proverbial cat.


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