# Table Sled Runners - The hunt continues...



## Moz (Nov 13, 2015)

Okay.
As many of you know, I am totally clueless and new to woodworking.
I am planning to build a Crosscut Sled for my Kobalt Contractors table saw.
Crosscut saws are almost as unique as fingerprints, there are so many variations out there.

Runners are my major speed bump.
I just can't justify spending $50 for Incra steel runners.
But beyond "use hardwood," everything gets iffy and cloudy.

I saw a YT video, where someone used a piece of cocobolo wood flooring they got from a hardwood flooring dumpster (possible wood source?), and that got me thinking...
could I use a length of hardwood flooring to make my runners???
Here is the list of what my nearest floor shop offers:
http://columber.net/hws2s.html

It's 3/4 thickness, 2 1/4"-5" widths, sold by the square foot...
Which wood would be best to get?
Is Purple heart worth the expense? 
The price beats the $8-$10/sq. ft price from the Orange Box store...
And the selection of hardwoods is better. Like I need more confusion of choice...

~M


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Oak, ash, hickory, walnut, maple if it's straight. Whatever is cheap. Mine are made from white birch because it is what grows locally and I have lots. They've proven to be very durable. Drill and countersink screw holes to mount them and if they ever wear out you can replace them. The fit isn't as critical as you may think as long as the runners aren't sloppy in the miter slots, especially if you go with the sled that straddles the blade.


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## Shop guy (Nov 22, 2012)

Moz, you,re making the runners to complicated. If you don't have any hardwood to make the runners just romp over to HD or Lowes and buy a piece of 3/4 oak, maple or even poplar long enough to make them. The first sled may not be your last. Do you have 3/4 plywood for the base? Good straight 2x4 for the fences? Relax, think it through and sketch out a simple little drawing of what you're going to make.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Purple Heart for runners?! OMG...talk about Cadillac! 
You trying to make the rest of look like cheapskates?!!! LOL


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## woodknots (Mar 7, 2012)

Moz 
I have to agree with others here - you're overthinking this. If you don't have any hardwood scrap lying around, just pick up a piece of 3/4" - doesn't have to fit the slot perfectly, but should not be sloppy. It won't be your last sled. You have to remember that you're not building fine furniture, it's a shop jig

Here's an analogy: some guys spend so much time designing the "perfect" workbench a la Christopher Shwarz, that they never get one built. Nice to have but not necessary. I put my workbench together over a weekend out of dimensional lumber and mdf. Attached a vise to it and works fine.


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

...made mine out of 1x3 leftover...wasn't even straight...used the mounting screws and a square to straighten them out. I have about 8 screws holding each runner on.

Couple of pennies underneath each runner, put tape on one side, slip it into the track...drop the sled on it, square it up using the edges of the saw and slide it off one end just enough to get a screw through each runner and into the sled. Do the same for all 4 corners. Then turn the whole magilla over and, using a square, screw in the runners. Peel the tape off, wax the bajeezies out of the whole thing and then put your fences on per your desired method. Be careful how much you tighten the screws if they are tapered...it will expand the runner and then you're back to zero. Counter sink the runners with a brad point bit and use flat head screws. Your choice on whether you glue them down or not.

The last one I made for the 4100 I used maple...wanted to treat it good...


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

gotta agree w/ all that has been said....


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

Mine were made from hardwood tomato stakes, from the garden centre....


http://www.routerforums.com/jigs-fixtures/17843-my-new-sled.html


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## tomp913 (Mar 7, 2014)

I think the link to this video has been posted before but it presents a very down-to-earth approach to building a sled, including a section on how to fit the runners to the table grooves at about 17 minutes into the video. 5 Cuts To A ?Perfect? Cross Cut Sled | William Ng School of Fine Woodworking


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## MT Stringer (Aug 15, 2012)

I used oak. I think the measurements were 3/4 inch wide x 3/8 inch deep.
Good luck. Take your time.


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

quarter sawn white oak will work just dandy....


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## Moz (Nov 13, 2015)

tomp913 said:


> I think the link to this video has been posted before but it presents a very down-to-earth approach to building a sled, including a section on how to fit the runners to the table grooves at about 17 minutes into the video. 5 Cuts To A ?Perfect? Cross Cut Sled | William Ng School of Fine Woodworking


I think Mike first turned me on to the 5 cuts vid, and it is what convinced me that even if my crosscut sled is fairly sad in construction, I stand a decent chance of at least making it accurate enough for government purposes...

Good to know Oak is sufficient and purpleheart may be overkill...
From a post by one of the Moderators over at Woodtalk.com:


> Use hard maple or purpleheart or bubinga or any other very hard hardwood. Mahogany is too soft, too. Pine is way too soft.


And that from a thread, "Making first crosscut sled..." 

I had never heard of purplewood in my life, until I watched a guy cut his runners for a crosscut sled, and discuss how purpleheart was the hardest wood he could find for them...That video is probably where my poor little mind started to unravel, as he waxed poetic about how the purpleheart wouldn't warp or wear down as quickly...

FWIW, I am finding it hard to locate good old Johnson's Paste Wax. I bought a can of the Boeing anti-rust spray ($10 a can, I'mma be protecting things I have let go to hell for decades! Might even rust protect the cats.) and all I can find are super duper god-knows-what waxes screaming they have carnauba was in them...Too much selection of crap in the world sometimes...

~M


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## BrianS (Nov 7, 2004)

Moz said:


> FWIW, I am finding it hard to locate good old Johnson's Paste Wax. I bought a can of the Boeing anti-rust spray ($10 a can, I'mma be protecting things I have let go to hell for decades! Might even rust protect the cats.) and all I can find are super duper god-knows-what waxes screaming they have carnauba was in them...Too much selection of crap in the world sometimes...
> 
> ~M


Moz, what everyone else has said.. don't overthink this. If you really mess it up, and I don't think this will happen, it either becomes firewood or scrap wood.... either one is useful.

As for the Johnson's paste wax, I think I got mine at the Borg, (Home Depot, aka the Big Orange Retail Group) but I have also seen it at Ace hardware. It's in the floor care section, not automotive care.


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## Moz (Nov 13, 2015)

BrianS said:


> Moz, what everyone else has said.. don't overthink this. If you really mess it up, and I don't think this will happen, it either becomes firewood or scrap wood.... either one is useful.
> 
> As for the Johnson's paste wax, I think I got mine at the Borg, (Home Depot, aka the Big Orange Retail Group) but I have also seen it at Ace hardware. It's in the floor care section, not automotive care.


Oh thank you, Brian! I never would have even thought to look at the Borg (I like that better than Orange Box...lol!) I'm becoming a regular customer there, lately, and probably more so when I start box building... We also have an Ace a couple miles away. I go there when I can't find what I need at the Borg...I went there for a jar of lye crystals when I was in my Pretzel baking mood. (yes, boys and girls, it is a lye bath that gives pretzels that distinctive brown outside and kinda slick taste on your tongue...now you know!)

~M


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

you have 5 Lowes in town...
four of which are super stores..
open early..
close late..
prowl them...

the store on Constitution and Powers is a dump and leaves a lot to be desired..

you have several guilds (2?) and WW clubs (3?)..
also there is Colorado Woodworkers on Filmore...
they are a club...
Woodcrafters has classes....

visit..
get on the mailing list...
pick a class...
go to school...


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

I just buy a length of the straightest hardwood I can find at HD and rip it slightly thinner than the total depth of the miter slot. Sand to fit if necessary, but a 3/4 piece will likely fit nicely. I use the penny trick. 

I don't use screws to attach the runners, and prefer to apply glue, then line up the ply base with the fence (better make sure the fence is precisely aligned first), then drop the ply base onto the runners. I do bring the fence over so I can line the ply base up with the fence. The blade will cut parallel to the miter slots regardless of whether or not the base is perfectly lined up. 

The last step is adding the sled's fence, the 2x4. Use a carpenter square to align perpendicular to the saw blade. Make sure one leg of the square is lined up with the body of the saw, not touching the tips. You can hang the bottom of the sled slightly over the front of the table saw. I apply glue then to the bottom of the sled fence, then if you have a pin nailer, once you align the bottom to the square, pin the sled fence on one end from below. Double check the alignment and then pin the other end from below while holding the board so it stays aligned. By the way, before I do this, apply lots of paste wax to the saw's table so the glue won't stick. Make sure it is wax and doesn't contain silicon or othe lubricants. If you use a pin nailer to hold the alignment, you don't need to use a screw because the glue joint will be plenty strong. 

You will also have to put a front fence on your sled to hold it together after the blade cuts through. The alignment of the front fence is really not critical, unless you are a perfectionist.

I agree that its a good idea to apply paste wax to runners. Some people like to dress up their jigs with some light finish or even wax. 

The most important thing about runners is making sure they fit the miter slots without any side to side movement. That will cause you problems. But it is all for naught if you don't make sure the sled fence is exactly perpendicular to the blade. Take your time setting that fence just right. 

Much easier to do all this than to describe it. I know others like to use countersunk screws on the runners but I like my glue and pinner method just as well. Use the penny trick mentioned above to lift the runners slightly above the table surface. They need not touch the bottom of the miter slot. Many people will glue a 3-4 inch chunk of hardwood to the back, center of the sled fence to safely bury the blade so the whirling appendage remover is not exposed when it passes through the fence. 

And, of course if you screw it up, make a new one. It will probably come out perfect the second time because you'll know what not to do from the first try. I predict that once you start using jigs, you'll be making a lot of jigs with runners, so learning to handle this process right pays off for many years.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Moz; not sure if it's been mentioned here yet, but be extremely wary that any thing you use in the way of waxes and aerosols especially, don't contain any Silicone. If it transfers to your project it'll likely ruin the finish.
Carnauba is excellent; it's the hardest wearing wax. The problem is like everything, just because it says it contains Carnauba, how much do they actually use in their formulation? More is better.
As has been mentioned, stay away from automotive waxes...SILICONE CITY!!!
Paste Wax-Blue Label - Mohawk Finishing


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## Moz (Nov 13, 2015)

That is exactly why I turned around and left the store empty handed.
I had read here to be wary and avoid silicone. 
Johnson's Paste Wax has always been mentioned as the old standard that is still as good as it ever was...So that is what I will use.

Once I find it...So appreciative of the Hardware Store directional. TY!
~M


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Moz said:


> That is exactly why I turned around and left the store empty handed.
> I had read here to be wary and avoid silicone.
> Johnson's Paste Wax has always been mentioned as the old standard that is still as good as it ever was...So that is what I will use.
> 
> ...


Doesn't your big supermarket carry it in with the house cleaning products?


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## Moz (Nov 13, 2015)

DaninVan said:


> Doesn't your big supermarket carry it in with the house cleaning products?


Not Wally-World, I went through household goods, Automotive, and the Paint/hardware section. Tons of crap from all kinds of manufacturers, but no Johnson and Johnson. I haven't headed out to King Soopers, Safeway, or Albertsons, because I don't grocery shop there except on super rare occasions when I'm cooking something weird.

Anymore, I shop at Wally-World, Sam's Club, Borg, or Amazon. Lowe's is semi-added to the list because it is a mile closer than Borg, but isn't near anything else to justify driving in that direction...

I've become quite boring and predictable in my shopping habits as I've gotten older.

~M


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

So what's wrong with _your_ beeswax+mineral oil ?


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## Moz (Nov 13, 2015)

I had rendered some beeswax from a honey harvest back in September, and Ozer was helping me, by dumping the "wash water," containing all the impurities from boiling the honeycomb out in a corner of the yard, since it's organic.

I had just finished a second boil, and strained out the big pieces of gunk,and asked him to help me dump it. I turned to the sink to wash out a bowl i was using, and heard the back door open and shut. The gunk water was in a pan next to me, and I couldn't figure out what was going on. He comes back in, and hands me my previously full of wax pot, now totally empty...Since it was melted, he didn't really look at it, and assumed that was the pot I wanted dumped...
He felt awful, but I just laughed and told him not to worry. It was going to make a candle, so I just laughed and said we burned it up really quick, and saved me the cost of wicking...

Rendering beeswax is a true PITA, because cleanup is a bear. I have to use metal or heavy glass for everything, because the only way to clean up the residue is to warm it in the oven until I can polish it off with paper towels...no washing it off...

THANK YOU for that recipe. I'd use coconut oil because it has a low melting point.
I won't be seeing any wax now until next year. When I relocate The Wild Bunch to their new hive I'll be building this Winter, I will need any and all old comb for swarm traps and to help orient the girls to their new digs.
But, to wax my tablesaw, I may pick up just a couple ozs at the health food store and whip up a batch of butter.

~M


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

?... I thought you bought a can of Boeshield?


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## Moz (Nov 13, 2015)

It hasn't arrived yet...
And that is only for the bottom coat. Everything I've been reading says you should then wax OVER the Boeshield, preferably with good old Johnson's Paste wax.

Why? I have no clue, but "They say" (Ozer always chimes in, "whoever _THEY_ are...") your sleds and everything glide better if you wax over the Boeshield. So wax I plan to do...
~M


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## gjackson52 (Jul 4, 2015)

I got a can of Johnson's paste wax from Amazon. I limit my driving so having things delivered is always welcome  I was surprised at how soft the wax is, it is almost runny, but so far it seems to be working well.


Gary


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## Moz (Nov 13, 2015)

I was just thinking of checking Amazon. Ozer will probably be ordering stuff in the next day or so, I'll add a can to his Wish List. Thx!!!
~M


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Moz said:


> It hasn't arrived yet...
> And that is only for the bottom coat. Everything I've been reading says you should then wax OVER the Boeshield, preferably with good old Johnson's Paste wax.
> 
> Why? I have no clue, but "They say" (Ozer always chimes in, "whoever _THEY_ are...") your sleds and everything glide better if you wax over the Boeshield. So wax I plan to do...
> ~M


what for...


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

FWIW...overthinking is an overstated concept... What you are doing is finding information sufficient enough to make your own informed decision. That more paths show up along the way does not mean the result is any closer or further. We all go through the same predicament and not just in this solitary hobby...every time we run into something new...fishing, hiking, reading, new store in town, new product, new job...it doesn't matter. Wait till you slowly run your fingers over the cut you just made feeling for the tiniest little imperfection when everybody around you says "good enough" and you think to yourself "not yet"...(don't forget that internal smirk) 

It's all about the journey anyway...all the things you have picked up along the way to making a sled that had nothing to do with "sled"... (BTW...I keep a notebook)

Besides...you sound like you're having fun at it...isn't that the objective...???


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## chessnut2 (Sep 15, 2011)

Moz...........I think you'll be fine just using some 3/4" oak. I don't know if you have widely varying humidity where you live, but if so, you can put a couple of set screws in the side of each runner that you can adjust for when the humidity is low and the wood has contracted a little. Adjust them out to take up any sloppiness in low humidity, and back in for higher levels at other times of the year. Its easier if you install the set screws before attaching the runners to the sled.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Guys and gals , when I googled table saw sled I found this version quite interesting . 
I can see building a few differant versions of sleds now . This could save a finger when working with that small stuff


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Parafin works for slicking up the runners too. Parafin is also good on drawers that don't have the metal slides and have the old fashioned hardwood runner on top of hardwood runner. On old antiques where the runners have worn over time and the drawers are starting drag on the stile I glue strips of counter top laminate to the runners which raises the drawer back up and makes them slide easier. A rub of parafin on the laminate strips and the drawers slide almost as good as with the metal slides.


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## Ray Newman (Mar 9, 2009)

Before getting too involved with this project, the first determine that both of your miter gauge slots are parallel! If they are not parallel, the runners will bind. 

Also determine the miter gauge slot and blade are parallel.

I have seen a few contractor type saw where the slots were not milled parallel. This summer there was a thread here 'bout this:

www.routerforums.com/tools-woodworking/71361-table-saw-adjustment-any-ideas.html


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## Moz (Nov 13, 2015)

There is no way to not get "too involved with this project..." Stupid crosscut sled is touted across "teh 'Net," as being one of those things you almost NEED to have to save aggravation and make your woodworking experience so much better...*sigh...

No one tells you that just making it takes up all the aggravation up front.

THANK you for that thread link! That is exactly the type of problem I have read my Kobalt having, so it is nice to have explanations and pictures on how to make the appropriate adjustments.

Ozer bought us a digital caliper, and I am checking out dial indicators to craft a cool little Blade and Fence Alignment Jig for it.
Long gone are the days you open the box, plug it in, turn it on, and go.
Everything now needs set up, alignment, and adjustments before you can get to the actual playing with it...

Thankfully, I am under no timetable. I read, I watch vids, I pester the hell out of you here, and I learn what I will need to do. 
I think when finally built, I shall name my Crosscut Sled "Stupid Stradivarius," or "The S.S." for short...lol.
~M


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## Moz (Nov 13, 2015)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> On old antiques where the runners have worn over time and the drawers are starting drag on the stile I glue strips of counter top laminate to the runners which raises the drawer back up and makes them slide easier. A rub of parafin on the laminate strips and the drawers slide almost as good as with the metal slides.


Chuck, you get the smoochie of the day for that tip. :x

I live in the house I grew up in, an early 50's tract house, and the kitchen drawers are as you describe. a couple of them have drag, one has a horrid propensity to jump the track if you don't pull the drawer out exactly so.

I like your solution.
At the very least, you have reminded me that I DO now have the tools to fix the problem. But you have also gifted me with a fix that will improve my repairs. Love it! Thank you!!!

~M


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

"Ozer bought us a digital caliper, and I am checking out dial indicators to craft a cool little Blade and Fence Alignment Jig for it."

You know that you can do the same thing with a stick . If your mitre gauge on the saw is reasonably tight in the slot, you can just slide a stick across til it touches the leading edge of the blade, clamp it to the m.g. and slide it down to the far edge of the blade and confirm it's the same distance from the slot. If it is, go back to doing whatever it was you're doing, you're golden. If it _isn't_ then you can get serious/worry about the parallelism.
Do the same for the fence. The back end of the fence should be a hair farther from the slot to prevent wood binding as it exits, ie _not_ precisely parallel (+.002" to .004")
Moz, keep in mind that guys have been using portable tablesaws on jobsites for a very long time...a lot of them don't have fences or bladeguards! Not recommending that practice, just suggesting that you're way on the good side of scary practices. It's all relative.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

The suggestion that the slots might not be parallel is worth checking out before you make the jig. If they aren't exactly parallel the 2 runner sled won't work. You would also have to pick which miter slot to true the blade up to, most likely the right side one. You could still make a 1 runner sled like mine. Both work and each has it's own advantages and disadvantages.


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## Ray Newman (Mar 9, 2009)

Another material for jig/sled runners is "cold rolled steel." 

Here, the local hardware carries 3' lengths of 3/8" x3/4" cold rolled steel for about $15.00. Believe I have also seen it at the local Lowe's and Home Depot. Most miter gauge slots are 3/8" X 3/4" but some Sears saws and some contractor type saw are different. 

Cold-rolled is easy to cut, drill, tap, etc. With a micrometer, carefully measure the miter gauge slot(s) width and depth, then do the same for the cold-rolled. 

The cold-rolled will not wear our or expand/shrink from weather change. If it loosens up through use or is a bit undersized to begin with, judicious taping along the length of an edge with a center punch will tighten it back up.

An old friend made all of jig/sled runners from cold-rolled. Depending upon bar length, jig/sled size, etc., he drilled 3-4 hole in each bar, then counter sunk for the screw heads


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## woodknots (Mar 7, 2012)

DaninVan said:


> "Ozer bought us a digital caliper, and I am checking out dial indicators to craft a cool little Blade and Fence Alignment Jig for it."
> 
> You know that you can do the same thing with a stick . If your mitre gauge on the saw is reasonably tight in the slot, *you can just slide a stick across til it touches the leading edge of the blade, clamp it to the m.g. and slide it down to the far edge of the blade and confirm it's the same distance from the slot*. If it is, go back to doing whatever it was you're doing, you're golden. If it _isn't_ then you can get serious/worry about the parallelism.
> Do the same for the fence. The back end of the fence should be a hair farther from the slot to prevent wood binding as it exits, ie _not_ precisely parallel (+.002" to .004")
> Moz, keep in mind that guys have been using portable tablesaws on jobsites for a very long time...a lot of them don't have fences or bladeguards! Not recommending that practice, just suggesting that you're way on the good side of scary practices. It's all relative.


If you go this route, mark a tooth on the blade, and measure the distance at the front. Then rotate the blade so that the marked tooth is at the back and use the same tooth.
And I probably don't need to state this but I will "UNPLUG THE SAW"


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## Ray Newman (Mar 9, 2009)

I am losing my mind today! Just thought of a one runner panel cut off sled that I made many years ago after seeing it on the New Yankee Workshop (show#0101). I added two toggle clamps to hold the stock while cutting.

Accurate, simple, fast to fabricate:






A version from the “other side” of the pond:


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## woodknots (Mar 7, 2012)

Ray

That's the sled I referenced in this post - just couldn't put my finger on the video. As you said, easy to make, simple and accurate

http://www.routerforums.com/shop-safety/82033-push-blocks-push-sticks-4.html#post942777


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

If the runner's a little sloppy, this might be a solution...
Slippery (Low-Friction) Tape - Lee Valley Tools
5mil thick....005"
Probably _lots_ of reasons to have it on the stock room shelf.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Ray I bought a bar of cold rolled steel to use on my sled and it wasn't accurate enough. It bound in the miter slots and was too hard to eliminate the high spots. I don't know if all cold rolled steel is equal. I would think it would have to be precision extruded instead like aluminum bar stock is. Aluminum could be used but I'm not sure there would be any wear advantages over using hardwood and the aluminum certainly costs way more.


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## Moz (Nov 13, 2015)

Norm is evil. He makes everything look so darn interesting and fun...

THANK YOU for finding that vid! I've been chewing through YT hunting for it.

I like the tip for how to measure blade distance. I would never have thought to use the same part of the blade to measure from.
I've seen the plans for a tape dispenser box, but couldn't see my having that many tapes...
I have blue painter's tape (love it for all kinds of things!)
Double sided tape (to mount little pieces to bigger pieces of wood to cut
Good ol' Duct tape (I saw they now have Glow in the Dark...The kid in me SO wants that!)
And probably the low-friction tape. I just saw that last night and put it on my Wish list. I saw it suggested for fences. Sled runners will be another use.

~M


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

You might want to bookmark these guys, Moz:
Untitled Document


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## ansel (Nov 26, 2013)

You might also consider high density plastic runners. There is a chain of stores in California called Tap Plastics that will cut the plastic to your specifications so there may be a similar business in your area, or you can buy sheets and cut it yourself on your table saw. Benefit of high density plastic is that it won't expand or contract due to humidity and slides well through the miter slots. Price is pretty reasonable as I recall.


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## Moz (Nov 13, 2015)

ansel, we've already discussed the plastic route - If I keep my runners short, it's definitely a good idea.
Dan, LOVE that link, ty. If I wear through oak ones, I'mma go metal.

~M


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

you want HDMW/UHMW plastic...
go to the dollar store and get some of their cutting boards..


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

what's up with runner wear and 1/500 th's (and less) of an inch mind set...
a production shop couldn't wear out them out...

friction wears...
sloppiness wears...
do a quality fit from most anything... except metal...
wax the sled...
wax the table...
get back to work...


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

Stick486 said:


> what's up with runner wear and 1/500 th's (and less) of an inch mind set...
> a production shop couldn't wear out them out...
> 
> friction wears...
> ...


Ya'rrrrrrr matey, be a full wind to your sails on dat one...


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

More good T slot stuff...Lee valley
Veritas® T-Slot Tracks (1/4-20 Thread) - Lee Valley Tools

It's a Canadian source but they definitely ship to the US. Instructions at the website for 'US pricing and shipping'.
Maybe one of the US members has some better info on that. the catalog pricing is in Cdn. $$$$, so you should be less expensive.

I bought the 10pk of T-slot nuts...perfect!
The 1/4-20 T-bolts have been useful as well.

Make your own from parts...
Featherboard - Lee Valley Tools
Closer to you...
Jig Knobs, T-Bolts & Hardware | Rockler Woodworking and Hardware


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## FreeTime (Dec 2, 2012)

Stick486 said:


> you want HDMW/UHMW plastic...
> go to the dollar store and get some of their cutting boards..


Tried UHMW - went back to Maple, even with the countersinks for the small screws, it was deforming enough during the fastening to put a noticeable drag in the miter slot. But I must be doing this wrong anyways - each time I put a pair on, I always need to tune the installed runners with a plane to ease the binding areas. (And yes, before you ask, they were cut straight, pre-drilled, taped in place, and put on using a straight edge)


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## Shop guy (Nov 22, 2012)

Mark, I use oak for runners. Fit them to the miter slots then set the base on top of them. Then I use a pin nailer to tack them in place. Next I carefully remove the sled, turn it over and screw it in place. Works for me.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

FreeTime said:


> Tried UHMW - went back to Maple, even with the countersinks for the small screws, it was deforming enough during the fastening to put a noticeable drag in the miter slot. But I must be doing this wrong anyways - each time I put a pair on, I always need to tune the installed runners with a plane to ease the binding areas. (And yes, before you ask, they were cut straight, pre-drilled, taped in place, and put on using a straight edge)


use low profile pan head screws (modified truss head) make the countersinks w/ a fostner bit and a clearance hole for the screw shank...
works super well on wood runners too.. no squeeze out or splitting...
these type screws and DS tape makes installation bullet proof...










using flat headed screws is why the deformity...
think about what the shoulder does to the runner...
it's a wedge...

.









.


----------



## Moz (Nov 13, 2015)

Today's Lesson: The Difference Between Countersinking, and Counterboring - When a Countersink can be Counterproductive Due to Squeeze-out.

Thank you, Stick. I learned a really interesting thing with your last post!!!
~M


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

THANKS...
Couldn't remember counterbore to save my hide...


----------



## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Stick's never boring...


----------



## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Stick486 said:


> use low profile pan head screws (modified truss head) make the countersinks w/ a fostner bit and a clearance hole for the screw shank...
> works super well on wood runners too.. no squeeze out or splitting...
> these type screws and DS tape makes installation bullet proof...
> 
> ...



OMG, the dreaded slotted head screw. I had to turn my head away from the evil on my screen when I saw those pictures Stick. Pictures of screw heads should only be square drive Robertsons. :smile:


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

DaninVan said:


> Stick's never boring...


been accused of being a stick in the mud though...


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> OMG, the dreaded slotted head screw. I had to turn my head away from the evil on my screen when I saw those pictures Stick. Pictures of screw heads should only be square drive Robertsons. :smile:


the inventor of the slotted head should be dug up and given the what for...
but rest easy Charles.. they were reps of screw head shapes..... is all...


----------



## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Funny, no one ever mentions cup washers(?). 
https://www.google.ca/search?q=cup+...-pqMnJAhUItIMKHfNNAT4QsAQIGw&biw=1120&bih=524
I really like the look of them, obviously not for everything...
Those brass coloured insert ones look great!


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

DaninVan said:


> Funny, no one ever mentions cup washers(?).
> https://www.google.ca/search?q=cup+...-pqMnJAhUItIMKHfNNAT4QsAQIGw&biw=1120&bih=524
> I really like the look of them, obviously not for everything...
> Those brass coloured insert ones look great!


not this time around...


----------



## FreeTime (Dec 2, 2012)

Stick486 said:


> use low profile pan head screws (modified truss head) make the countersinks w/ a fostner bit and a clearance hole for the screw shank...
> works super well on wood runners too.. no squeeze out or splitting...
> these type screws and DS tape makes installation bullet proof...
> 
> ...


I do use DS tape but I didn't have any screws of the type you mentioned short enough (1" was too long). I also didn't think the runner was deep enough to be structurally sound after a c'bore. The flat head screws did not cause squeeze out on the maple (I didn't crank them down) - the high spots were on only one side and not necessarily near the screws. Runners were checked for sliding in the miter slot before installing.


----------



## ejgoerner (Jan 31, 2013)

I have a Bosch saw, and used the left over oak floor from when they built my house in the late 90s, i used all scraps of plywood, it came out great. when i build my next one it will be out of better plywood Hardwood and not 1/2 inch(it came as packing materiel for something at work) It cost me my time, screws. but did learn lot


----------



## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

FreeTime said:


> Tried UHMW - went back to Maple, even with the countersinks for the small screws, it was deforming enough during the fastening to put a noticeable drag in the miter slot. But I must be doing this wrong anyways - each time I put a pair on, I always need to tune the installed runners with a plane to ease the binding areas. (And yes, before you ask, they were cut straight, pre-drilled, taped in place, and put on using a straight edge)


Mark...if you're using tapered head screws that may happen...try brad point bit and flat head screws...


----------



## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Hey, Eric; have we properly welcomed you?! (I didn't recognize your name when I saw it)

Just in case... Welcome!


----------



## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Moz said:


> Long gone are the days you open the box, plug it in, turn it on, and go.
> Everything now needs set up, alignment, and adjustments before you can get to the actual playing with it...
> ~M


When I bought my Laguna TS, it had a slight warp on one wing, high in the middle. Called the company, HQ is about an hour from here, and they said, heck, bring in the whole saw. I did, thinking they'll fit it. Nope, they gave me a brand new one they'd assembled perfectly. All alignments were perfect and then they checked for flatness using stainless steel straight edges and feeler gauges. One slightly low spot well within specs and out of the way. But I still reset blade and slot to fence alignment from time to time. My Bosch 19 inch sliding miter was perfect out of the box, but it was packed in foam to absorb shocks. But setup is really important these days.


----------



## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

" My Bosch 19 inch sliding miter..."
*19" *? Holy Hanna! Tell me that's a typo?!


----------



## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

ejgoerner said:


> I have a Bosch saw, and used the left over oak floor from when they built my house in the late 90s, i used all scraps of plywood, it came out great. when i build my next one it will be out of better plywood Hardwood and not 1/2 inch(it came as packing materiel for something at work) It cost me my time, screws. but did learn lot


Exactly right Eric. I never assume the one of anything I'm building now is going to be the last one I build.


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## Moz (Nov 13, 2015)

Why are slot headed screws bad?
I shuddered seeing the square holes...I hate Torx too.

But I'm old. If I can't jam a kitchen knife into it to turn it when I can't find a screwdriver, what good is it? 
It's only when it's so marred I have to use an "easy out" tap handle and replace it, that I get a bit miffed...

~M


----------



## woodknots (Mar 7, 2012)

Moz said:


> Why are slot headed screws bad?
> I shuddered seeing the square holes...I hate Torx too.
> 
> But I'm old. If I can't jam a kitchen knife into it to turn it when I can't find a screwdriver, what good is it?
> ...


You might be sorry you asked :no:

Slotted screws don't stand up to torque very well - easy to mar both the slot and the work piece. Each size of slot requires a matching screwdriver.
"Square" or Robertson are easier to center the screwdriver into the recess and were more adaptable to mass production assembly lines (ie: the Ford Motor Company) eliminating the extra time it took to get the slotted screwdriver into the slot.

That's my take on it and I'm sure a lot of the experts here will add to this.

And BTW, Robertson screws don't allow you to use a kitchen knife, nail file, or anything with a slim edge to double as a screwdriver (which you should not do unless you like to wreck the screw and possibly whatever it is that it is holding)

And the inventor of the Robertson screw was Canadian - so there >


----------



## Ratbob (Apr 6, 2015)

@Moz, my take on screwdriver bits is:
Flat blade - slips out of the head and mars the wood if you don't use both hands to guide the bit.
Phillips head - tend to 'cam' out of the screw head rounding the edges when applying a lot of torque.
Torx - an acceptable solution, but I hate Torx after years of working on my Harley! I've converted most of them to standard Allen bolts.
Robertson - able to keep its seat while under high torque (like when using an impact driver).

With Roberson bits I can run the driver with one hand and not worry about slipping out of the screw head. When assembling a project that uses a lot of screws this can really speed up the process.
@vchiarelli, I've found that you can use a flat blade screwdriver that is wider than the side, but narrower than the diagonal of the Roberson Bit in a pinch.


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

FreeTime said:


> I do use DS tape but I didn't have any screws of the type you mentione*d short enough (1" was too long).* I also didn't think the runner was deep enough to be structurally sound after a c'bore. The flat head screws did not cause squeeze out on the maple (I didn't crank them down) - the high spots were on only one side and not necessarily near the screws. Runners were checked for sliding in the miter slot before installing.


so cut the length of the screws down...


----------



## FreeTime (Dec 2, 2012)

Stick486 said:


> so cut the length of the screws down...


Too much work


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

FreeTime said:


> Too much work


don't own a set of side cutters or lineman's pliers for a few screws and less than a minuet.....
really...


----------



## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

There is so many different screw slots out there, I used to have one screwdriver, now I have a whole toolbox full and they don't fit everything. I get something new to assemble and have to go buy a screwdriver to fit it. And they are SAE and Metric, and hex and star and torx and the ones that look like phillips and are not, and look like stars and torx and are not. Then I read in a wood magazine that some guys invented a new one that is better than the ones out there it will accept six different kind sof drivers and they want it to become the new "Standard". 
My shelves are full of jars of screws of different shapes and sizes, like a hardware store. I say lets go back to nails!

Herb


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

LeePages....


----------



## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

Let's dig up Archimedes and "put the screws to 'im"...


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Nickp said:


> Let's dig up Archimedes and "put the screws to 'im"...


I'm in...


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## Moz (Nov 13, 2015)

Is that before or after the Big Heist?
~M


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

side entertainment/amusement/revenge...
aka moon light side job


----------



## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

DaninVan said:


> " My Bosch 19 inch sliding miter..."
> *19" *? Holy Hanna! Tell me that's a typo?!


That is what you get when you keyboard in the dark, late at night. 10 inch of course.


----------



## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

All this talk about screws. Given the amount of work I do with sliding jigs, I'd rather use pinners and glue that futz around with screws. By the time those runners show any significant wear requireing replacement, I'll probably be dead or know how to make something better. Hardwood, glue and pinners to hold it in place. Was to keep the glue from sticking to the table. My gosh, everyone is making this runner thing too darn complicated.


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

DesertRatTom said:


> That is what you get when you keyboard in the dark, late at night. 10 inch of course.


be nice if it wasn't...


----------



## Moz (Nov 13, 2015)

DesertRatTom said:


> My gosh, everyone is making this runner thing too darn complicated.


My fault, led on by the market for aluminum, plastic, steel, expandable and Rockler runners...It is made to seem that one's success or failure with any and all crosscuts is more dependent upon placing those runners "just so," than anything else next to the 5 cut alignment...
One runner, two runners, recessed, extending. Composition, adjustment, glued, pinned, screwed. Nylon, countersunk, those damn runners have run me ragged since BEFORE i got my table saw...And every day I trip across at least one new Crosscut Sled plan that is just different enough from every other damn crosscut sled plan, that I have to stop, and study it, and see what it does that may make it better. Tonight I saw one with flip stops on a steel bar (possibly a t-track, couldn't see too clearly) that would SO make box joints easier for me...

~M


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

@Moz

I agree with Tom...you're bordering on "analysis paralysis"...

When it comes down to it, it's all about the 3 F's ... form, fit and function. You only need two pieces of something attached to a piece of wood... Two decisions...what and how...

You will always be faced with HOW to attach no matter the project...

Slap a couple of runners on any which way and try it...as you can see by all the responses, they all work...

Besides, we're all more anxious to see WHAT you're gonna make with it...


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Nick; beehive yourself!


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

DaninVan said:


> Nick; beehive yourself!


What would be the fun in that...

Ur right...going to the booboo box for a time out. 

Ok...I'm back out...

Phew...


----------



## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Moz the flip stops are rarely rigid enough to use for making joints, some aren't even rigid enough for accurate cutoff. Stick with the jig with a key way the same size of the fingers and keep it simple for the sled.


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## seamuskennison (Nov 17, 2015)

Awesome thread gang! I'm going to try a couple different types of runner materials and see which works best for my contractor saw. The crappy miter slide that came with it is complete garbage (as you all know) and I've been hesitant to move forward with building a sled. This discussion, and that really nice video takes much of the guesswork out of the equation.

Thanks once again!


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## old coasty (Aug 15, 2014)

Nickp said:


> @Moz
> 
> the 3 F's ... form, fit and function.


What happened to the 4th F (Finish)


----------



## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

Chad, go buy an Incra miter gage,they are reasonably priced and often on sale.

A lot of "F"en going on here. 

Marble or granite might make good slides, how about soapstone? or Plyboo? Whale bone? ivory?

Herb


----------



## Moz (Nov 13, 2015)

Whale bone is impossible to come by. I'm into corsets, flexible steel is the norm nowadays. I don't think you can even buy whalebone legally, but that may just be rhino horn...
Soapstone is too soft. Far softer than pine, so no go for runners.
Marble or granite would be nice, but drilling them to mount to the sled would be highly problematic...Although it does make the idea of faux marble an interesting thought...it's very hard, but drillable.
Plyboo...Hmmm. I've seen plywood runners used a few times, no Plyboo. Bamboo is super strong, so it would be very interesting to try it for runners...

Dan, for the next 3-4 weeks, all i'mma be making will be sawdust, once Ozer unboxes my table saw.
Starting January 10th Hive Production will be going into full swing. I even made a Gantt Chart to help me stay on schedule, so that my 3 hives will be ready by April 10th. I'm leaving plenty of "F" factor time for mistakes and total screwups, as well as sufficient painting time. I will post pics of my progress for general amusement...

I just picked up my belt sander. The gentleman took REALLY good care of it, it honestly looks hardly used. He was even sweet enough to give me a basic plywood push stick for good luck, after I told him the one that came with the table saw makes the fence worthless for clamping if you take it out to use it...
I also got to see some of his projects, including a nice knife handle made of "snakewood," or "lacewood," which I had never heard of before. And I got to see and hold some purplewood. It IS nice stuff...

~M


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

PurpleHEART, Moz. There's also a Yellowheart...

https://cookwoods.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Purpleheart.jpg
http://www.chitswood.com/woodpics/yellowheart.JPG

I haven't seen the Yellowheart at my hardwood place; I guess I should try elsewhere.
I really like the intensity when it's been finished!

http://www.lynneyamaguchi.com/Images/483yellowheart_c3.jpg


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

what about locust, mesquite and Ipe???...


----------



## fire65 (Oct 29, 2008)

10 pages on table saw sled, REALLY?


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

fire65 said:


> 10 pages on table saw sled, REALLY?


take the speed reading course...
go to *ACCOUNT SETTINGS > EDIT OPTIONS >* and find this....
*
Number of Posts to Show Per Page*
Use this option to set the number of posts to show in a thread before splitting the display into multiple pages.
*Number of Posts to Show Per Page:*

and change the setting to 40 posts to page..
you'll have just over 3 pages...


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

fire65 said:


> 10 pages on table saw sled, REALLY?


There's WAY more pages than that on router tables. Anything with as many variations as a saw sled or a router table can do that.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

*Right!*



Stick486 said:


> what about locust, mesquite and Ipe???...


Sorry, forgot the Mesquite...
Shows up at Canadian Tire in the Summer Seasonal section.
>


----------



## Moz (Nov 13, 2015)

i don't see anything but a header...
Possibly deleted tips, or is it just me?
~M


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## Moz (Nov 13, 2015)

The Webpage is just "show N tell" photos. 
But the link to the FB page has some tips there.

The links from the FB page go to the website, and then show up.
But good luck hitting the site the 'normal' way.


----------



## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

Stick486 said:


> another way to get there..
> WoodworkerZ.com


Works OK for me, some good tips there , Stick.

Herb


----------



## Moz (Nov 13, 2015)

Okay. Today's contender for the "Use a metal one." Emphasis on 'one.'

Build a Super-Precise Tablesaw Crosscut Sled - Fine Woodworking

It looks like what I want it to do.
Seems simple enough.
Do you guys think it viable?
~M


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

metal on you aluminum tabled TS is not a good plam...
VOE...


----------



## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

I agree with Stick and disagree with the FWW article. You don't want to use anything for runners that is as hard or harder than the table material because of wear. Hard runners will eventually wear the miter slots. The harder they are the faster the wear. While they may be easier there will be consequences to deal with later that are far more difficult. If your slots are 3/4 wide I would just take a piece of 3/4" hardwood long enough for the sled and see if it fits in the slot. If it's a little too big then sand both sides with a piece of sandpaper glued to some ply or mdf (home made sanding block) until it fits and will slide satisfactorily and then rip of some strips 3/8" thick or less.


----------



## Ratbob (Apr 6, 2015)

Hey Moz, Stick and Charles have very valid points about using metal bars, but it seems to me that you are really asking if you need to use 2 runners or 1. From my very limited experience one runner is all you need as long as it fits properly. If there's no slop when you try to rotate the fixture (when engaged with the slot), you are amply constrained. IMO adding a second runner creates more problems than it solves.


----------



## Moz (Nov 13, 2015)

Oh, I agree, the metal runner is not all it's cracked up to be, because they come with little nylon spacers, that people say shear off.
I have no wood the appropriate size to cut down, but have found a hardwood mill place here in town.
I am hoping to be able to just buy a small piece to make a single runner of oak. Purple heart if it is not too dear.

I was asking about the one runner, yes. 
Since I won't be slamming out box sides, and they will generally be pine, no larger than 12", if one runner will give me sufficiently accurate tracking, I'm good with that.

I plan on using the router to make the box joints, So at this stage, my crosscut sled will just give me box sides the same length.
If they are not accurate, the honeycomb frames will bind up as I slide them across the inner rabbets.

~M


----------



## old coasty (Aug 15, 2014)

I built my first sled with two metal runners on my Bosch, and couldn't get them both adjusted so it didn't bind. Went to one hardwood runner and am happy now.


----------



## Ratbob (Apr 6, 2015)

Moz said:


> ...I have no wood the appropriate size to cut down, ...


Sure you do. Go to the BORG and pick up a 1x4 in white oak. You'll probably have to buy at least 6', but now you'll have some scrap to play with. You should find that the 1x4 is actually 3/4" thick, so all you need to do is to do is trim off a piece to match your required depth.


----------



## BernieW (Sep 12, 2006)

I tried metal runners thinking I was smart. Problem was as others have said it wears on the table, gets rather sloppy plus every time you turn around they were pinching. Changed to red oak for the Delta saw. I just redid my sled runners this afternoon on my mitre sled and crosscut sled for the new DeWalt saw I just bought. I used red oak. I just cut it to the depth I needed. Glued, screwed and waxed.

Moz don't over think it. Go to Youtube. There are many on there on making crosscut or mitre sleds.


----------



## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

I think Moz takes the title away from me for overthinking things lol


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Moz said:


> Oh, I agree, the metal runner is not all it's cracked up to be, because they come with little nylon spacers, that people say shear off.
> I have no wood the appropriate size to cut down, but have found a hardwood mill place here in town.
> I am hoping to be able to just buy a small piece to make a single runner of oak. Purple heart if it is not too dear.
> 
> ...


so go over to the big box and get a piece of oak or go over to the flooring outfit (Sam's, Sonny's?) on Elkhorn and raid their dumpsters...
install two runners.. way more stable...

you could use metal if it's undersized (millimeter) and you put UHMW tape on the side walls of the rail...


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

old coasty said:


> I built my first sled with two metal runners on my Bosch, and couldn't get them both adjusted so it didn't bind. Went to one hardwood runner and am happy now.


use UHMW or wood and a shoulder plane is your Allie...


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

@Moz...

you need to get out more...
you posted around here about no construction in the Springs because of winter shut down...
I was in town for most of this week...
saw a lot residential/commercial construction in progress as in quite a bit...

Powers..
Union..
Circle..
Woodman...
Briergate...
UCCS...
Cordoba.. 
Constitution..
Platte..

lots of dumpsters...


----------



## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Moz; the part about Purpleheart being a _hard_wood? try sanding it and you'll be a lot clearer on the 'hard' part'
Besides the dust is toxic. Save the Purpleheart for something that you want to look spectacular.


----------



## Moz (Nov 13, 2015)

DaninVan said:


> ...
> Besides the dust is toxic.


You mean like pressure treated wood?
Well poop.

Is walnut harder than oak?
Relatively speaking?
~M


----------



## Moz (Nov 13, 2015)

Stick486 said:


> @Moz...
> 
> you need to get out more...
> you posted around here about no construction in the Springs because of winter shut down...
> ...


I'm far south, almost Fountain. I try to forget the "big city" past S. Academy and Hancock...Down here, the only thing going is a shopping center by the new WalMart, and they flat out said N to the O. Too close to Fort Carson, they don't want anyone near the construction areas not authorized to be there.

I can't say I blame them.
But I should take a jaunt up north, see what's shaking.
I've had some wonderful people help me out, when I admit I am a crazy woman trying to build beehives.
~M


----------



## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

A lot of this stuff gets passed around and magnified beyond actual fact.
I've been working for decades with both the earlier CC40 and the current ACQ PT wood and I'm still alive... 
On the toxicity scale Purpleheart only gets a 2 star rating (out of 5)...doesn't mean you should sand it without a mask on. Western Red Cedar is much worse.
Purpleheart | The Wood Database - Lumber Identification (Hardwoods)
Western Red Cedar | The Wood Database - Lumber Identification (Softwoods)
Wood Allergies and Toxicity | The Wood Database
Wood/Dust Toxicity

For info on specific woods, click on the name at the 3rd link repeated below...
Wood Allergies and Toxicity | The Wood Database


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

take a run up Powers...
there are a bunch of sites...

is Bryon still the manager at the S Powers Lowes???


----------



## Moz (Nov 13, 2015)

2" of snow atm, and more falling...
My hips have no interest at this moment in doing much besides whimpering...

But I'll head up that way next week when things warm up again. Ty!
~M


----------



## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

Hard maple (sugar maple) is harder than white oak is harder than red oak, red oak is harder than walnut, walnut is harder than cherry, cherry is harder than popular..
E-I-E-I-O

most (not all) of the more common exotics are harder than American Hardwoods..


----------



## Moz (Nov 13, 2015)

Thank you So much Bill!
I read somewheres here how what many of us consider "hardwood," isn't, in some respects. 
You've given me a "handy reference guide."

Now I can go to the hardwood joint and see what they have to do the job that doesn't cost an arm and leg.
With the snowy weather, I'd give them my left hip and right knee, no questions asked, tho...
~M


----------



## Moz (Nov 13, 2015)

Stick486 said:


> take a run up Powers...
> there are a bunch of sites...
> 
> is Bryon still the manager at the S Powers Lowes???


I've never been to that one. 
There is one down in Fountain, and one at Platte and Academy.

I've been more of a BOrg store girl myself...
~M


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Hey...
Balsa is a hardwood...


----------



## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

Janka hardness scale......great reference:

The Janka Hardness Test for Hardwoods


----------



## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Bill; once again looking at the lists reinforces the risk of relying on 'common names' for wood...any plants for that matter. Lots of confusing duplicates in there until you look at the Botanical names.


----------



## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

DaninVan said:


> Bill; once again looking at the lists reinforces the risk of relying on 'common names' for wood...any plants for that matter. Lots of confusing duplicates in there until you look at the Botanical names.


Thats actually a good point. The list I provided, albeit specific is in truth relatively generic. I think it safe to say its an excellent starting point. After reading your post, I started surfing a bit, found variations in the list from one source to another, not by much, but variations none the less. Example would be in my list, it shows Ligium Vitae as being the hardest wood. However, the Wood Data Base lists it as #2, and Wiki lists it as #4...
Another consideration is as you mention is the botanical names or sub speices. There are over 600 types of oak tree. With "Live Oak" being nearly 2 1/2 times harder than "Red and White Oaks"...
So, in the end if its a specific wood for a specific task that is wanted, then ya just gotta do your homework. Even at that, at some point you'll often just have to make a decision.


----------



## Moz (Nov 13, 2015)

I'm going to go Oak, although Balsa would be SO much easier to cut... LOL
I also now understand that "hardwood" is not necessarily hard.

I had someone send me this link:
Video

which creates "adjustable" runners by using a countersunk screw to "push out" a portion of the runner for sloppy rails.
If I find I have screwed up, I may try that before replacing them, just to see if it works, as replacement will be the next step anyway...

I have now watched so many crosscut sled vids, some fairly "loose" with concern about precision, that Saint Norm, and his exhortations about the need for uber precision is not as intimidating as it was when I first started obsessing about it. That is not to say it is no longer my worst paranoia/fear, just that I am less worried about it. The bees should be quite content with my efforts, regardless my sled...

~M


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

it's a fix but only a so so of fix...
since the expansions aren't uniform the effect/affect micro accuracy when it's important...
use HDMW tape instead...


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

My runners are all Poplar from the HD. I don't do enough work with the Poplar runners to wear much. Selection of the straightest possible piece, with grain that runs the long way and is straight, not curved, is what I look for. You have to go through a lot of pieces to find one that fits the bill. Sometimes I find the best stuff in the pre-cut shelves just below the longer pieces. You can get Oak there if you want. I often lay the piece on the concrete pad. If it rocks or is unstable in any way, I skip it and look further. Lowes also has the shorter pieces

I will add that you need to make certain the fence is parallel to the miter slots (and or the blade body). As you set the angle of the bar your work piece will ride on, you will probably use a triangle of some sort to make sure it is 90 to the blade or fence. If you don't already have one, get a Wixey angle guage. It will enable you to cut square. It is much more exact than using a square or triangle.

I bought a Rockler heavy duty triangle to set the rail to 90. It's big, thick, transparent and exact. It will cozy up to the blade while you set the angle.

Finally, I popped for the Rockler Crosscut sled, Table Saw Crosscut Sled - Rockler Woodworking Tools. I like the fact that it enables you to make exact angle cuts up to about 50 degrees. You still have to calibrate it to your saw, but that's really easy. Shift the fence against the triangle, lock it in, then adjust the centerline that shows the angle to zero and you're done. I use it more than any other jig. It has a single, metal miter bar and cuts like a dream. You can also get their cutoff sled that catches the cut portion. I usually use a piece of scrap behind the workpiece to prevent tearout. Solves the problems you're anticipating. 

To me, some things are better store bought. Given my earlier skill level, I'm not sure I would have made a sled as good as the Rockler. I still weigh whether to build a jig or buy one pretty carefully. A slight error in a jig can really mess you up.

Hope this is helpful. Whatever else you do, get the Wixey, about $30 on Amazon.


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## Moz (Nov 13, 2015)

Thank you, Tom for the Wixey tip! I was wondering about getting an angle gauge, and had no idea how to proceed.
I have a dial indicator and a digital micrometer, which I will be using to make sure the blade angle is true, but still need an angle gauge.

I have a compound miter saw for angle cuts, at the moment, the TS will be making simple straight cuts.
I am planning on my Router table to make the box joints.

The Rockler sled is beautiful, but my budget is now flat, as all remaining moneys will be going to HD or Lowe's for lumber for the hives and birch ply for the sled. The DIY cost is my motivation over the beautiful Rockler sled. They made my Router table, so I am already a fan of their stuff! The Wixey may have to be my Valentine's 'candy' this year. Less fattening than chocolate, and I'll appreciate it far longer!

Thank you for the Lowe's info on the shorter pieces. I always have to get HD to cut my stuff down, because I don't need 12' of anything...

Thank you for the help!
~M


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Moz said:


> I'm going to go Oak, although Balsa would be SO much easier to cut... LOL
> I also now understand that "hardwood" is not necessarily hard.
> 
> I had someone send me this link:
> ...


According to math, if you have 16" long runners that are 1/64" narrower than the groove, which is an easily visible gap, you will have a possible deviation slope of 1/1024. Does that make you less concerned? 1/64 can be tightened with masking tape, UHMW tape, or adding a strip of veneer to the edge of your runners. Or just making an adjustment and getting a better fit on a second set. Quit obsessing, you have way less to fret over than you are willing to believe.


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## cocobolo1 (Dec 31, 2015)

Stick486 said:


> so go over to the big box and get a piece of oak or go over to the flooring outfit (Sam's, Sonny's?) on Elkhorn and raid their dumpsters...
> install two runners.. way more stable...
> 
> you could use metal if it's undersized (millimeter) and you put UHMW tape on the side walls of the rail...


Now there's an idea that I like. There's an outfit down on the coast here, Surrey I think it is, that sells oddball pieces of UHMW, cheap.

I wonder how two solid 3/4" UHMW slides would work?


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

cocobolo1 said:


> I wonder how two solid 3/4" UHMW slides would work?


really well...
that's all I use now...
won't hurt or wear aluminum tracks/slots and slide really well...
finesse fitting is cake and pie w/ a shoulder plane...

when you mount your runners use low profile pan head screws (modified truss head) make the countersinks/bores w/ a fostner bit and then drill a clearance hole for the screw shank...
works super well on wood runners too.. no squeeze out or splitting...
these type screws and DS tape makes installation bullet proof...

using flat headed screws is why the deformity...
think about what the shoulder does to the runner...
it's a wedge...

.


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## cocobolo1 (Dec 31, 2015)

Stick486 said:


> really well...
> that's all I use now...
> won't hurt or wear aluminum tracks/slots and slide really well...
> finesse fitting is cake and pie w/ a shoulder plane...
> ...


Sold!


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

If I could get a picture to upload I would show what happens to runners that aren't supported when you use UHMW. I wanted to stick the runners out the front and back of 2 sleds I made and the UHMW is too flimsy to do that with so keep that in mind.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> If I could get a picture to upload I would show what happens to runners that aren't supported when you use UHMW. I wanted to stick the runners out the front and back of 2 sleds I made and the UHMW is too flimsy to do that with so keep that in mind.


didn't extend the runners...
that is what an infeed table is for...


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## cocobolo1 (Dec 31, 2015)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> If I could get a picture to upload I would show what happens to runners that aren't supported when you use UHMW. I wanted to stick the runners out the front and back of 2 sleds I made and the UHMW is too flimsy to do that with so keep that in mind.


Can't you just drag and drop?

Of course the UHMW will be flexible, it is after all only plastic.

They use UHMW for thrust bearings in tug boats, great big so and so's. A chum of mine who used to look after a fleet on the coast gave me several sections of these bearings. I turned some pulleys out of some of the pieces. Just about totally indestructible.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Had not thought of trying to drag and drop. It has a wide range of uses and is easy to machine but it also has limitations. It is used on truck 5th wheels but UHMW is bad for "creep" which causes it to deform under pressure over time, which is one of it's limitations for example. I'm not saying it doesn't have it's place, it just isn't suitable for every application. Good hardwood runners work very well and cost virtually nothing whereas UHMW isn't that cheap.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> Had not thought of trying to drag and drop. It has a wide range of uses and is easy to machine but it also has limitations. It is used on truck 5th wheels but UHMW is bad for "creep" which causes it to deform under pressure over time, which is one of it's limitations for example. I'm not saying it doesn't have it's place, it just isn't suitable for every application. Good hardwood runners work very well and cost virtually nothing whereas UHMW isn't that cheap.


use DS tape to hold in place and mechanical after...
et Dollar Store cutting boards...


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## cocobolo1 (Dec 31, 2015)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> Had not thought of trying to drag and drop. It has a wide range of uses and is easy to machine but it also has limitations. It is used on truck 5th wheels but UHMW is bad for "creep" which causes it to deform under pressure over time, which is one of it's limitations for example. I'm not saying it doesn't have it's place, it just isn't suitable for every application. Good hardwood runners work very well and cost virtually nothing whereas UHMW isn't that cheap.


You're right, it will creep a small amount. I think that's why Bob gave me the UHMW in the first place. I will guess that in the case of sled runners it would last indefinitely.

The "Drag and Drop" notice is right under the posts as we write them.


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## cocobolo1 (Dec 31, 2015)

Stick486 said:


> use DS tape to hold in place and mechanical after...
> et Dollar Store cutting boards...


$ store cutting boards! Absolutely genius! We must have at least half a dozen here...off to measure the longest one. Don't say anything to the missus....:no:


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

cocobolo1 said:


> You're right, it will creep a small amount. I think that's why Bob gave me the UHMW in the first place. I will guess that in the case of sled runners it would last indefinitely.
> 
> The "Drag and Drop" notice is right under the posts as we write them.


null the creep...
use double stick tape...

lay the runner in the slot DST up...
drop the sled on top...
flip the sled over..
add mechanical...


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## cocobolo1 (Dec 31, 2015)

Stick486 said:


> null the creep...
> use double stick tape...
> 
> lay the runner in the slot DST up...
> ...


Yep, pretty straight forward. I'll be making one soon for my new table saw.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Man, It is amazing this has gone on 15 pages so far. Over thinking? I think so. Good info though between the picking of nits.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

DesertRatTom said:


> Man, It is amazing this has gone on 15 pages so far. Over thinking? I think so. Good info though between the picking of nits.


set your personal preferences to 40 posts per page and navigation will get easier..


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## woodknots (Mar 7, 2012)

Stick486 said:


> set your personal preferences to 40 posts per page and navigation will get easier..


15 pages or 40 pages, it's still 145 posts (146 if you count mine).

Rome wasn't built in a day, but it didn't take this long.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

DesertRatTom said:


> Man, It is amazing this has gone on 15 pages so far. Over thinking? I think so. Good info though between the picking of nits.


Yes I'm going to purchace the wood myself and ship it to Moz lol . Just tell me what to get as I'm confused at this point


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

vchiarelli said:


> 15 pages or 40 pages, it's still 145 posts (146 if you count mine).
> 
> Rome wasn't built in a day, but it didn't take this long.


This old dead horse was beat to life many times. LOL
Herb


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

vchiarelli said:


> 15 pages or 40 pages, it's still 145 posts (146 if you count mine).
> 
> Rome wasn't built in a day, but it didn't take this long.


...Great Wall of China...?


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## Moz (Nov 13, 2015)

TheCableGuy said:


> Yes I'm going to purchace the wood myself and ship it to Moz lol . Just tell me what to get as I'm confused at this point


Tell me about it...
Now that the saw has been unboxed, the space where it will live is being created - I can't imagine insulating our garage. I grew up in this house, and that garage is the winter "cold cellar," where leftovers from the humongous Holiday meals stay cool, since the fridge is barely large enough for daily foodstuffs.

But Ozer has been storing all the cardboard from all the boxes until he can take it down into the crawlspace - poor man's dirt carpeting - So many handymen over the years have thanked us for putting it down...

That damn crosscut sled is going to be my bane, and my proudest accomplishment when it gets built...
stupid runners should be made of diamonds and gold for all the aggravation they have caused me. 
It's all Saint Norm's fault. He said somewheres how accuracy of your crosscut sled is the very most important thing. My poor OCD head latched onto that, and it's taken months of you guys' (and gals) gentle encouragement to pry my mind off of it. 
If not for that "most important" warning, I'd probably just slap one together, willy nilly, and have the craziest angles ever seen...5 cuts...HA!
~M


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Herb Stoops said:


> This old dead horse was beat to life many times. LOL
> Herb


''what if'' sure is an enduring thug...


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## Moz (Nov 13, 2015)

Beating it back to life is only beneficial, though, if you can get additional mileage out of it.
If is only lies there to be fed, it's worthless and should be adopted as a kid...

Amidst all the nits, there _are_ some good tips, hints, and reasonings behind why some people choose one thing over another.

I never would have made the connection between type of screws and push out.
Or have any real understanding why cutting board runners would work.
Or that while of importance, a crosscut sled does not live or die solely by the runners you use (but placement may be another animal...)

Now I'mma feel like a baboon every time I check this thread...Picking nits off the back...

~M


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## gjackson52 (Jul 4, 2015)

I have what is probably a dumb question. If you use two rails in both miter slots ( assuming your saw has two ) and they are tight against the blade side of the slot. Does it matter if they even fill the slot completely, they will still be tight against the slot...yes ?


Gary


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

that works if both of the runners are tight to the inside side of the slot or to the outside sides but not one to the inside and the other to the outside of the slot....


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## Moz (Nov 13, 2015)

Everytime I think I have this down, it's like eating beans. 
One good brain fart, and poof! It's gone again...

Inside, outside, all around the town...
For the clueless and easily confused (*ME ME ME!), I have two slots, with a blade in between.
[...] ^ [...]
Should the rails BOTH orient on the same side of the rails? Like, both hugging the right or left edges as I face them from the end? Left or right?
[x..] ^ [x..] OR [..x] ^ [..x]
They should NOT both push in from the sides towards the blade in the middle?
[..x] ^ [x..]

If I were to be buried when I die, instead of cremated, I would have my crosscut sled made into my tombstone...That's assuming I will live long enough to build the stupid thing...
Notice how my first project will be a belt sander stand? ROFL.

~M


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## woodknots (Mar 7, 2012)

Moz said:


> Everytime I think I have this down, it's like eating beans.
> One good brain fart, and poof! It's gone again...
> 
> Inside, outside, all around the town...
> ...


Moz - if the rails butt against the miter slot nearest the blade (the centre) then they are contained by the slots and cannot push in the opposite direction as one of the rails has reached its limit and cannot move in that direction - Make sense?
So, install them so they are both butting up to the inside or the outside of the rail. Doesn't matter. It matters if they are *both* butting in one direction, ie: right or left, then there will be movement within the slot.


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## Moz (Nov 13, 2015)

Ah, kinda like if they were magnets? either attracted to or pushed away from each other, no 'in-tandem' parallel positioning?

TY, I think my feeble little brain has it right now.

[x..] ^ [..x] 
OR 
[..x] ^ [x..]

~M


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## woodknots (Mar 7, 2012)

Moz said:


> Ah, *kinda like if they were magnets*? either attracted to or pushed away from each other, no 'in-tandem' parallel positioning?
> 
> TY, I think my feeble little brain has it right now.
> 
> ...


More like "lovers in a dangerous time" :surprise:


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## cocobolo1 (Dec 31, 2015)

Moz said:


> Ah, kinda like if they were magnets? either attracted to or pushed away from each other, no 'in-tandem' parallel positioning?
> 
> TY, I think my feeble little brain has it right now.
> 
> ...


Now you have it. But why not make the slides a close fit to the slots?


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

@Moz I can see why its so confusing. Use good wood, 3/4 x 3 inch, pick from the straightest 4 foot precut pieces in the slots beneath the longer pieces in the store.

Take the time to run it through your table saw until it just fits. This means lightly tapping the fence to move it slightly toward the blade. That is called creeping up on the cut. Once you get the right dimension, cut off strips slightly smaller than the depth of the miter slot.

Test to make sure they slide, but don't wiggle. Put 2 dimes in two places in the slot and then place the slides on top of the dimes. Put some double stick tape on the slides, then carefully place the bed of the sled against the fence (which you've adjusted to be parallel to the slot). Then lay the bed onto the tape. Press down to make the tape stick, then test slide the whole thing carefully to make sure it is aligned and moves fairly freely. If it doesn't, peel the bed off and retry.

I made a jig with two runners that was loose on one side, so I used a bit of the aluminum tape used for air conditioning ducts (Not duck or duct tape) along the side of the loose fitting runner and it then fit perfectly.

Carefully slide the assembly off the saw, pre drill and counter sink holes through the runners, and screw it in place. 

If the runners don't fit, start over. It is a practice run and you are just learning so be forgiving of yourself.

Once the runners are on and slide well, all other adjustments are pretty easy. I bought Rockler's large right angle triangle (nice and big, thick and square). Use it to line up the bottom fence square to the blade. Rest the triangle on the saw's body, not against the teeth. You can put a small nail through the base and into the fence at one end so it pivots. Line up the bottom with the triangle held against the blade, pull it back off the saw, clamp the fence and drill a hole with a countersink on the free end of the fence to hold it in place. Then add more screws with countersunk pre drilled holes. Don't put any screws in line with the saw blade.

Do make sure the fence is fairly tall so the blade doesn't cut all the way through. You can put a top rail on. If you want to be able to hold a piece in place on the top rail as well as the bottom one, then you can cut a couple of pieces of ply to the distance you want between front and rear fence. Place them on the bed and then place the top fence against it. It will be parallel, and because you squared the bottom fence to the blade, they will both allow 90 degree cuts, top and bottom.

You need about a 2x4 foot piece of the best 3/4 ply to make a sled. Cut off four four inch wide strips and glue two sets of two pieces together. Make sure they rest on a very flat surface while the glue cures. Clamp them together with 3-6 clamps ($3 at Harbor freight) while they're on the flat surface. Put wax paper under so they aren't glued to the flat surface. 

Once you've assembled the table, run your saw blade up a couple of inches and run the sled through it. Be careful where you put your fingers when holding the piece you're cutting in place.
Do it again or fix it. You'll learn a lot and feel good for having done it.

Did you get that Wixey digital angle gauge yet? It is really a must. Setting the blade to zero on the tilt scale on the front of the saw does not guarantee the blade is actually at 90 to the table top. If you don't get the blade to 90, the sled wont' turn out and cuts you make with it may also be off. 

Just go get the wood, 3/4 wood screws, double stick carpet tape, a Wixey from Amazon, and a countersink. Get to your saw and start. The sky won't fall if you mess it up and you'll feel really proud when it turns out OK. You can do it.

Sorry this is so long, but I think you have been confused by the random comments on comments about comments made pages earlier. Watch a few videos, yes, then start.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Here's a link to a New Yankee Workshop episode where Norm Abrams makes a crosscut sled. Mine is identical to his except for the size and they are probably close that way too. He starts making it at the 12 minute mark. It isn't any harder than he makes it look.


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## Moz (Nov 13, 2015)

I think you gave me the wrong link Chuck. I saw no sled in this episode...
~M


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Have you made any sawdust yet, Moz?
Personally I think you need to get a feel for how the saw works before worrying about the sled. Just my opinion.
Why, you ask? Because you need to get comfortable with it and not be distracted while you're using it! Self preservation.
As an analogy, driving in London England, in a standard transmission, when you've only ever driven an automatic.


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## Moz (Nov 13, 2015)

I have Gorilla double sided tape.
The guy on YouTube who was cutting really tiny pieces on a table saw showed how valuable that stuff can be.
I think I may have a carpenter's angle around somewhere from the ex husband decades ago...
I will be using my Dial Indicator attached to the miter like this:








can't afford the Wixey right now, house taxes are due, and Ozer's been a sweetie buying me all the other tools. A few, like the Grrriper and a Wixley are on a future wish list.
And I'm not sure how accurate a chinese no-name might be...
~M


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## Moz (Nov 13, 2015)

I agree about getting comfortable with the saw first.
I have various pieces of wood, MDF, and ply to abuse and cut up, just to get a feel for the power and speed and drag.

After I make a mess, and give the saw a bit of run time, I will then check the blade and fence for "truth and justice." Then I will do the 5 cut, and then get serious...

~M


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

Moz said:


> I agree about getting comfortable with the saw first.
> I have various pieces of wood, MDF, and ply to abuse and cut up, just to get a feel for the power and speed and drag.
> 
> After I make a mess, and give the saw a bit of run time, I will then check the blade and fence for "truth and justice." Then I will do the 5 cut, and then get serious...
> ...


I would suggest checking and making all your alignments before making your first cut...no reason to use a tool before knowing how dangerous it might be...

Doing them first will alert you to how the fence reacts to moving it...if the blade might have some runout, where there is slop, etc...


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## Shop guy (Nov 22, 2012)

I agree with Nick. Get everything right before you start. It's like measure twice cut once. Also if the fence happens to be canted in it could conceivably cause a kick back which you never want to see. Do it right the first time.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

I think you gave me the wrong link Chuck. I saw no sled in this episode...
It's there, he starts talking about it at 12 minutes in.

I think I may have a carpenter's angle around somewhere from the ex husband decades ago...
You'll need a good framing square for a few jobs, such as checking to make sure that cuts are square, making sure your table saw blade is 90*, layout, etc. I have a little 3" machinist's square for setting tools, a 6" x 12" small framing square, 2 full size framing squares, speed squares, try squares, combo squares, etc. You need at least a framing square. Check to make sure it's accurate. I've seen some cheap ones for about $7-8 that weren't. You can check them by holding one arm along the edge of some ply or mdf (factory edge) and mark a line along the other arm. Flip it over 180* the other way and see if it lines up with the original mark.

If you haven't used your saw much then it would pay to watch Part 1 of the NYW video too. He goes over the basics on that video.


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## Moz (Nov 13, 2015)

Such good advice. Once again, thank you all.
~M


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

*The Tablesaw Massacre*



Moz said:


> Such good advice. Once again, thank you all.
> ~M


We're squeamish, Moz... :surprise:


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## cocobolo1 (Dec 31, 2015)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> I think you gave me the wrong link Chuck. I saw no sled in this episode...
> It's there, he starts talking about it at 12 minutes in.
> 
> I think I may have a carpenter's angle around somewhere from the ex husband decades ago...
> Check to make sure it's accurate. I've seen some cheap ones for about $7-8 that weren't. You can check them by holding one arm along the edge of some ply or mdf (factory edge) and mark a line along the other arm. Flip it over 180* the other way and see if it lines up with the original mark.


If you do have a framing square that is NOT actually square, you can adjust them by taking a punch and hitting either the inside of the corner of the square - in the case of the square being "closed" or on the outside corner of the square - in the case that the square is "open".


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Moz said:


> ...I think I may have a carpenter's angle around somewhere from the ex husband decades ago...
> I will be using my Dial Indicator attached to the miter like this:
> can't afford the Wixey right now, house taxes are due, and Ozer's been a sweetie buying me all the other tools. A few, like the Grrriper and a Wixley are on a future wish list.
> And I'm not sure how accurate a chinese no-name might be...
> ~M


You can use 2x4 chunks as push blocks. Put a short piece on the back or cut it to an L shape across the bottom so there is a small tab to hold the wood as you push it forward. it is disposable and cheap and will help keep you safe. I know you can use a square of many types to set the blade to 90, but my eyes are just not good enough to be certain its right on without using the Wixey. For decades people have gotten along with a square of some sort.

Using the dial gauge that way is a nice choice. Hint: Place the probe end on the side of a tooth, not the body of the blade. Rotate the blade and place the probe on the same tooth. I have to use a marker. This will tell you if the blade is parallel to the miter slot. You do pretty much the same for the fence to make it as parallel as possible with the miter slot. I can get mine to 3/1000 ths, which is within specs. The angle of the fence lengthwise should be outward ever so slightly, If the fence angles in, you will increase the risk of kickbacks, which can be very painful! 

These are some of the setup criteria the guys are talking about. Just doing that will help you get familiar with the saw.

One other thing you can do that can help you get started is to get the flattest piece of material you can find and screw it onto the face of your miter gauge. Set the 90 angle of this backer piece carefully with a square of some sort. The inexpensive and most stock miter gauges are not at all accurate and a 1 degree error will make joints hard to impossible to fit.

Trying to think of ways to get you going without spending any money. 

Has anyone talked with you about finding free wood? I think there was a thread on here awhile ago. I know you're repurposing things now. With all those bee hives you'll be making, you might want read through that string. http://www.routerforums.com/featured-topics/79025-sources-wood.html.


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## Moz (Nov 13, 2015)

How slightly is slightly for the fence?
I've gotten some beautiful pieces of wood through Craigslist, and scouting the neighborhood.
At least enough to chop up and get comfortable with.

I have a push stick given to me by the gentleman who sold me my belt sander. He is a woodworker, and wanted to help me along. 
~M


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## woodknots (Mar 7, 2012)

Moz:

The fence can be parallel to the blade or as Tom suggests, slightly further at the back of the saw - slightly is a few thousandths.

Not sure if this has been mentioned in this thread, or if you need to be told, but *NEVER EVER USE THE MITER GAUGE AND THE FENCE AT THE SAME TIME* - that's kickback waiting to happen. It's OK for dados but not if the cuts go *through* the work piece.

I know you're trying to save some money (or at least not spend very much). For under $10, you can find these at any office supply (Staples, Office Depot, etc.) They are accurate enough to set your miter gauge. It's a Staedtler-Mars #964, 12", 60°


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## cocobolo1 (Dec 31, 2015)

vchiarelli said:


> Moz:
> 
> The fence can be parallel to the blade or as Tom suggests, slightly further at the back of the saw - slightly is a few thousandths.
> 
> ...


Hah! What a great idea. I use my 6" machinists square, but this would do the job at 1/10 the price!


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## Moz (Nov 13, 2015)

Oh YAY!
I have one of those in Fluorescent Orange from when i took Graphic arts in college decades ago! Never had a use for it, but it was just too cool to get rid of....

Now to try to remember where I put it...lol!
~M


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## cocobolo1 (Dec 31, 2015)

Moz said:


> Oh YAY!
> I have one of those in Fluorescent Orange from when i took Graphic arts in college decades ago! Never had a use for it, but it was just too cool to get rid of....
> 
> Now to try to remember where I put it...lol!
> ~M


Good luck on your search Moz.

The bigger the better for those plastic squares.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

It's with the T square, Moz...


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## roofner (Aug 1, 2010)

I ran accross this runner on pinterest today .
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/499547783647280186/


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

I'd been thinking along those lines, Gary; it'd eliminate the problem of the runners requiring a long slot in the outfeed table.
Wouldn't even need the metal fin, just a taller than flush slot runner and a channel in the bottom of the sled.
There must be a reason why not otherwise everyone would be doing it?


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

I'm looking at the picture with the aluminum fin and the image of a chalkboard around the 6th grade keeps popping up...screeeeeeeeeech.....and then goose bumps... 

But I like your idea, Dan, about extending the slot into the bottom of the sled...gives a beefier impression. Next one I make might just see that...


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

DaninVan said:


> I'd been thinking along those lines, Gary; it'd eliminate the problem of the runners requiring a long slot in the outfeed table.
> Wouldn't even need the metal fin, just a taller than flush slot runner and a channel in the bottom of the sled.
> There must be a reason why not otherwise everyone would be doing it?


I don't think I understand that angle thingy,

Post#181 and counting Wheeeeeee.....

Herb


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

*Wait...what?*



Herb Stoops said:


> I don't think I understand that angle thingy,
> 
> Post#181 and counting Wheeeeeee.....
> 
> Herb


Herb, sorry, I don't follow?
Instead of the runners hanging down into the mitre slot, why not have the runners loose and projecting UP into the base of the sled...ie the sled runs on the runners rather than the runners being attached and sliding in the mitre slot.
Obviously there'd need to be a stop screw hanging down from the runner at the infeed end to prevent it from going too far back into the slot...or maybe at both ends so it can't go anywhere.

Crazy, I know.


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

DaninVan said:


> Herb, sorry, I don't follow?
> Instead of the runners hanging down into the mitre slot, why not have the runners loose and projecting UP into the base of the sled...ie the sled runs on the runners rather than the runners being attached and sliding in the mitre slot.
> Obviously there'd need to be a stop screw hanging down from the runner at the infeed end to prevent it from going too far back into the slot...or maybe at both ends so it can't go anywhere.
> 
> Crazy, I know.


The dead horse is alive and well........

Dan, I understand now what the angle does now, kind of like the drawer slide principle. HMMM...........The out feed table would stop the angle from going out further, a stop on the back end of the table would keep the angle from sliding back. Very interesting

Herb


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

Poor @Moz...she'll never get one built... 

...let's find some more ideas...


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Nickp said:


> Poor @Moz...she'll never get one built...
> 
> ...let's find some more ideas...


procrastinating ...eh???


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## woodknots (Mar 7, 2012)

Nickp said:


> Poor @Moz...she'll never get one built...
> 
> ...let's find some more ideas...


When she decides to start she'll have a list to pick from


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Maybe drawer slides?


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## Ratbob (Apr 6, 2015)

Ball Bearings, or a bolt on linear actuator with a flux capacitor?


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## Shop guy (Nov 22, 2012)

Rick may get insulation before Moz gets a sled. LOL


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## woodknots (Mar 7, 2012)

Shop guy said:


> Rick may get insulation before Moz gets a sled. LOL


doubt it


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

vchiarelli said:


> doubt it


neither will win that race...

procrastination is an art form...
you are witnessing it's masterization...
yur dealing with a couple of Donatello/Da Vincis here....


----------



## woodknots (Mar 7, 2012)

Stick486 said:


> neither will win that race...
> 
> procrastination is an art form...
> you are witnessing it's masterization...
> yur dealing with a couple of Donatello/Da Vincis here....


They're trying to decide who's gonna be president of the club - just haven't set a date for the vote yet


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

vchiarelli said:


> They're trying to decide who's gonna be president of the club - just haven't set a date for the vote yet


had an idea something was up...
thank for figuring it out...


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## Moz (Nov 13, 2015)

Oh, me and that sled will be going around for a bit, yet.

First projects are a wheelie cart for the air compressor, and a stand for the belt sander.

And I may try the router for the box joints. I have that Diablo bit just for that purpose.

But the sled is right up there in the top 5 projects.
I have too much crosscutting for all the hive components. 25 frame constructions from 1" to 10" in width...

And they have to be done by March so I can Tung oil and wax the outsides.
~M


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

They're gonna call you the Tung Dynasty, Moz...


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## Moz (Nov 13, 2015)

personally, I like chemically laden varnish, but the girls need a kinder, gentler approach...

This is food-grade Tung oil. No Formby's crap for my bees!
I should nab a little for my knife handles...

~M


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

I think this may be of some assistance ...


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

Moz said:


> personally, I like chemically laden varnish, but the girls need a kinder, gentler approach...
> 
> This is food-grade Tung oil. No Formby's crap for my bees!
> I should nab a little for my knife handles...
> ...


Edible Tung oil made from humming bird tungs.

Herb


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## cocobolo1 (Dec 31, 2015)

Herb Stoops said:


> Edible Tung oil made from humming bird tungs.
> 
> Herb


Herb...that's not even nice. Poor little humming birds.


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

DaninVan said:


> I think this may be of some assistance ...


Looks like a train wreck waiting to happen.

Herb


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

Herb Stoops said:


> Edible Tung oil made from humming bird tungs.
> 
> Herb


I think there should be a "devilish" Like button just for these occasions... >


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

Nickp said:


> I think there should be a "devilish" Like button just for these occasions... >


Several years ago ,when I was in my cutting board phase, I wanted a food friendly coating for my projects and did an "Edible finish" search on the internet.
What came up was edible shellac. Seems that food and candy manufacturers use a lot of it also Pharmaceutical companies. So I ordered a small jug of it and used it for finishing wooden items for food. It was an alcohol based finish.

Herb


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

cocobolo1 said:


> Herb...that's not even nice. Poor little humming birds.


no sweat...
Herb doesn't collect them till it's the bird's last day...


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Shop guy said:


> Rick may get insulation before Moz gets a sled. LOL


Take it easy on Moz. I recall taking a long time before tackling any serious project. I think making stands is a great place to start. They don't have to be perfect to be useful. I watched hours of video before I made my first stand, which I'm still using. Keep going Moz!


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## schnewj (Nov 18, 2013)

cocobolo1 said:


> Herb...that's not even nice. Poor little humming birds.


Oh, sure, worry about the Hummer tungs! I bet you never considered how many poor Naugas the car industry killed just to make Naugahyde for their car seats!>>>


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## woodknots (Mar 7, 2012)

schnewj said:


> Oh, sure, worry about the Hummer tungs! I bet you never considered how many poor Naugas the car industry killed just to make Naugahyde for their car seats!>>>


Bill - haven't heard that one in ages - still funny

How many nauga gave up their lives for that bar?:grin:


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

schnewj said:


> Oh, sure, worry about the Hummer tungs! I bet you never considered how many poor Naugas the car industry killed just to make Naugahyde for their car seats!>>>


rumor control has it that they are just skinned and allowed to grow a new hyde...


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## gjackson52 (Jul 4, 2015)

You know with all the talk about table saw cross cut sleds, I think I also need to make one. So I am off to look for plans that show what a good overall size should be. 


Gary


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## woodknots (Mar 7, 2012)

Gary:
I've been using the one in the Norm video in this post for a while - single runner, easy to make, works for me. 

http://www.routerforums.com/tools-w...led-runners-hunt-continues-17.html#post998210


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## cocobolo1 (Dec 31, 2015)

vchiarelli said:


> Gary:
> I've been using the one in the Norm video in this post for a while - single runner, easy to make, works for me.
> 
> http://www.routerforums.com/tools-w...led-runners-hunt-continues-17.html#post998210


I think I might do the same. Seems simple enough.

When I left Ruxton Island I sold just about all of my bigger tools, table saw included, just got a Rigid a few months back but have had little chance to use it.

But with the missus gone for a couple of weeks to the Big Smoke, I should try and see what sort of trouble I can get into. :jester:


----------



## Moz (Nov 13, 2015)

cocobolo1 said:


> Herb...that's not even nice. Poor little humming birds.


 Why do you think they hum? No tungs, so they can't sing...>

THANK You, I stared at that stupid photo for 10 minutes trying everything...
Long road (track) to hoe? Nope
Cross that track when you get to it? Nope
When like minds think alike, it's like two train tracks crossing? Nuh-uh
Don't let yourself get de-railed? Naw

Train wreck waiting to happen...AH HA!
Color me clueless, once again...

If I make a One Runner, I can just push it against the rail, which would eliminate alignment issues...
Gee, just what I need. ANOTHER decision to make...gah.

~M


----------



## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

You forgot "They're stringing me a line" and "I'm getting sidetracked".


----------



## johnnie_dr (Jan 8, 2016)

*since you are still looking*

I'll add my solution.

I built a sled several years ago and had the same quandary...

Thought about hardwood? Softwood? mitre-slot inserts??

Then said "I want something that will slide in the slot...nice an easy...like slippery and slick

I went to my cut-off bin, found a length of PCV trim stock (like the stuff you get at HomeDepot.

I cut it to size, glued-n-screwed it to the bottom of sled and have never had a problem with it, since it is stable (no shrink/swell) and it just glides in them slots...

john


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

johnnie_dr said:


> I'll add my solution.
> 
> I built a sled several years ago and had the same quandary...
> 
> ...


excellent idea...


----------



## Moz (Nov 13, 2015)

I had to look it up, never heard of PVC as anything but pipe...
Oh joy. Another option to throw into the mix...

This is why I am so confuzulled over this seemingly simple part of a crosscut sled...
So, Mr. Stick. You talked about plastic inserts awhile back, like cutting boards. How does PVC trim stack up to that?
Home Despot is beginning to recognize me when I go in...

What screws would I use?

~M


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

I think Stick made the point a while back that using flat head screws...the ones with the pyramid shape on the underside...is a bad idea in that it tends to force the material outwards thereby increasing friction on the slot sides. Use pan head or round head screws in a slightly countersunk hole ie, predrill a slightly under diameter hole. 
https://www.boltdepot.com/fastener-information/Wood-Screws/Wood-Screw-Pilot-Hole-Size.aspx


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## Ratbob (Apr 6, 2015)

DaninVan said:


> I think Stick made the point a while back that using flat head screws...the ones with the pyramid shape on the underside...is a bad idea in that it tends to force the material outwards thereby increasing friction on the slot sides. *Use pan head or round head screws in a slightly countersunk hole ie, predrill a slightly under diameter hole.*
> https://www.boltdepot.com/fastener-information/Wood-Screws/Wood-Screw-Pilot-Hole-Size.aspx












The method that Stick suggested requires two holes. Drill a through hole that is the same diameter of the body of the screw, but less than the diameter of the threads of the screw. Drill a second hole just larger than the diameter of the head of the screw, and just deep enough so that the screw head (plus washer if used) is below the surface of the part. Similar to the Counterbore in the attached pic.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

My bad! Yes, _counterbore_ not countersink. Sorry about that; it most certainly makes a difference.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Ratbob said:


> The method that Stick suggested requires two holes. Drill a through hole that is the same diameter of the body of the screw, but less than the diameter of the threads of the screw. Drill a second hole just larger than the diameter of the head of the screw, and just deep enough so that the screw head (plus washer if used) is below the surface of the part. Similar to the Counterbore in the attached pic.


the screw body (including threads) hole is sized for clearance...
drill the counter bore 1st, then the pilot hole and drill the clearance hole in the runner...
w/ a modified truss head there is no washer needed...
also the modified truss head has very flat profile...

K-lath screws are perfect for this...

.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

@Moz,

Man, this string has been going on a long time! Did you get the table saw tuned up yet? Don't bother doing anything else til that's done. You will learn a lot doing that.


----------



## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

DaninVan said:


> I'd been thinking along those lines, Gary; it'd eliminate the problem of the runners requiring a long slot in the outfeed table.
> Wouldn't even need the metal fin, just a taller than flush slot runner and a channel in the bottom of the sled.
> There must be a reason why not otherwise everyone would be doing it?


A lot of friction unless the wood on the sled's bottom dado was perfectly smooth. It never is. Not sure how much you'd gain in accuracy. Easier to rout a rough groove in an outfeed table, doesn't need to be all that accurate.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Herb; the runner needn't go all the way up into the sled, it's just a guide that's not attached to anything. But yes, you're likely right about friction, although drawers have been running on wood rails for eons.
Anyway, It's just for Moz to think about rather than sleeping at night...


----------



## cocobolo1 (Dec 31, 2015)

Poor Moz...she just doesn't stand a chance with you guys, does she?


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

0


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## Moz (Nov 13, 2015)

DaninVan said:


> ...although drawers have been running on wood rails for eons.
> Anyway, It's just for Moz to think about rather than sleeping at night...


If not for the fact I suffer horrid insomnia, and spend my nights trying to learn all this stuff, I would say you are being evil...lol!

As for drawers and their wooden rails, drawers don't have to be precise to slide out and in. They can lean, tilt, and wobble away. But a sled has to move in such a way so as to not cut crooked...

I'd love the tolerance of a drawer rail...but my hives would look like a drunken blind person made them...lol!
~M


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## Moz (Nov 13, 2015)

DesertRatTom said:


> @Moz,
> 
> Man, this string has been going on a long time! Did you get the table saw tuned up yet? Don't bother doing anything else til that's done. You will learn a lot doing that.


Saw tune up is next on the list.
We picked up lumber yesterday.

~M


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

"As for drawers and their wooden rails, drawers don't have to be precise to slide out and in. They can lean, tilt, and wobble away. But a sled has to move in such a way so as to not cut crooked...
-Moz

Why would they wobble?


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## Moz (Nov 13, 2015)

DaninVan said:


> "As for drawers and their wooden rails, drawers don't have to be precise to slide out and in. They can lean, tilt, and wobble away. But a sled has to move in such a way so as to not cut crooked...
> -Moz
> 
> Why would they wobble?


When they get older, and the wooden rails wear down.
I live in the house I grew up in. It was built post war, in the early 50's, before metal drawer slides. There are a couple drawers in the kitchen you open and close in a very specific direction...

They will now be getting replaced at a future point, because I have the tools to do it.

My biggest excitement is to one day replace the 'built in' cutting board drawer that my mom used for many many years...
~M


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

After you build your sled...


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## Moz (Nov 13, 2015)

DaninVan said:


> After you build your sled...


Tru dat...those drawers are already on uneven and crooked tracks. No need for me to make new ones just like it...

I do like the one-track idea, though. Only half as much chance of me screwing it up...

~M


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

There is NO chance you're going to screw it up; just do it.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Plus 1. Watch the New Yankee Workshop video again. I'll bet Norm didn't spend more than 20-25 actual minutes building his.


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## cocobolo1 (Dec 31, 2015)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> Plus 1. Watch the New Yankee Workshop video again. I'll bet Norm didn't spend more than 20-25 actual minutes building his.


Maybe even less. That one just has one runner, doesn't it? Very simple.

I see that PBS is not going to be doing any more Norm workshops. Bit of a shame. He was really quite popular. But still and all, there's 21 years worth in the archives.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

DaninVan said:


> There is NO chance you're going to screw it up; just do it.


Maybe this will help ?


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## woodknots (Mar 7, 2012)

Keith:

Earlier in this thread (seems like a lifetime ago) I posted a picture of a one runner sled I built (much the same as Norm's). Probably didn't take me more than an hour.

http://www.routerforums.com/shop-safety/82033-push-blocks-push-sticks-4.html#post942777


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

TheCableGuy said:


> Maybe this will help ?
> http://youtu.be/ZXsQAXx_ao0


insulation????


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Stick486 said:


> insulation????


Omg , ouch . Guess that's sort eh calling the kettle black :sarcastic:

In my defence , wiring ,insulating . Aw forget it


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## cocobolo1 (Dec 31, 2015)

vchiarelli said:


> Keith:
> 
> Earlier in this thread (seems like a lifetime ago) I posted a picture of a one runner sled I built (much the same as Norm's). Probably didn't take me more than an hour.
> 
> http://www.routerforums.com/shop-safety/82033-push-blocks-push-sticks-4.html#post942777


Vince, I've only been here for a few days, did not see the picture of your sled before.

I must admit I'm a bit confused (normal for me) about what appears to be the fence on the leading edge of your sled. Is there some special reason for that?


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## woodknots (Mar 7, 2012)

That is a fence on the leading edge - you could put it on the trailing edge. I chose the leading edge as my TS is a smaller 8" Beaver.
The fence is 90 degrees to the edge that runs along the blade. I place my work piece that needs cutting against the fence.

Essentially, I made the runner, placed the panel onto the runner, with a bit of the panel, past the blade. I wasn't too concerned that the panel wasn't exactly 90 degrees to the blade at that point.
I then ran the panel through the blade and the resulting cut was at the blade, basically giving me an exact fit (to that blade) and parallel to the miter slot (which should be parallel to the blade)

I then attached the fence at one point - farthest away from the blade and left the "blade end" of the fence loose.
I then set up my dial indicator and a square and slid the panel along the miter slot while checking the dial indicator until it was a constant zero - no movement - (adjusting the fence as required)
When I found that, I permanently attached the blade end of the fence.

Hope that all makes sense. I've attached a photo (sorry about the quality -taken with my smart phone)


----------



## cocobolo1 (Dec 31, 2015)

vchiarelli said:


> That is a fence on the leading edge - you could put it on the trailing edge. I chose the leading edge as my TS is a smaller 8" Beaver.
> The fence is 90 degrees to the edge that runs along the blade. I place my work piece that needs cutting against the fence.
> 
> Essentially, I made the runner, placed the panel onto the runner, with a bit of the panel, past the blade. I wasn't too concerned that the panel wasn't exactly 90 degrees to the blade at that point.
> ...


Looks like it was accurately made.

Did you have some special reason for putting the fence at the front? That was really my question all along. Just curious. 

I wonder if you wouldn't benefit from having some way to clamp your wood with a leading edge fence.


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## woodknots (Mar 7, 2012)

My table saw is small and doesn't give me a lot of distance between the blade and the front of the table. A fence at the front would limit the size of the panel I material I could cut.
By having it at the rear, the material can overhang the front of the panel and still allow me to push it completely through (I have slots in my out feed table to allow a miter gauge or the sled runner to continue on their path.

front = toward me
rear = away from me


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## woodknots (Mar 7, 2012)

Keith

I should explain a little further. When I need to break down larger sheets I use a jig I made, picture attached. Specifically labelled for the circ saw/blade combo I used. A length of plywood, and a 1x2 for the fence. I made the plywood slightly larger than the distance between my circ saw and the edge of the plate, then cut off the plywood to the exact width.
I then only have to line up the edge of the plywood to my cut line and go. This one is 8 feet, and I have one that is 4 feet.

If I'm cutting anything long and narrow I use my Bosch sliding miter saw to a shorter length then I might use my Delta square with a stop on the TS to get exact length pieces.

The sled in the above picture is used for smaller panels that I want to square up.

I haven't had a need to clamp the wood to the leading edge but you could easily attach some toggle clamps to the fence.


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## cocobolo1 (Dec 31, 2015)

vchiarelli said:


> My table saw is small and doesn't give me a lot of distance between the blade and the front of the table. A fence at the front would limit the size of the panel I material I could cut.
> By having it at the rear, the material can overhang the front of the panel and still allow me to push it completely through (I have slots in my out feed table to allow a miter gauge or the sled runner to continue on their path.
> 
> front = toward me
> rear = away from me


OK...now I see why you did it that way. So you're not just a pretty face after all!


----------



## cocobolo1 (Dec 31, 2015)

vchiarelli said:


> Keith
> 
> I should explain a little further. When I need to break down larger sheets I use a jig I made, picture attached. Specifically labelled for the circ saw/blade combo I used. A length of plywood, and a 1x2 for the fence. I made the plywood slightly larger than the distance between my circ saw and the edge of the plate, then cut off the plywood to the exact width.
> I then only have to line up the edge of the plywood to my cut line and go. This one is 8 feet, and I have one that is 4 feet.
> ...



Gotcha!

I've been using something very similar to your long jig for the past 40 years or so. I usually use 1/4" plywood for the base and the fence. Then cut as you say.

Yes, you do need one for each different saw. Correctamundo! (The Fonz)


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## woodknots (Mar 7, 2012)

1/2" ply with a 1x2 fence. My old circ saw has the blade on the right, so the 1x2 allows the saw motor to clear over it. The overhang to the left of the fence gives me enough room to clamp the jig down to the sheet I'm breaking down. The small piece of wood you see sticking out from the left is attached from underneath and squared to the cut edge so I can just butt it up against the large panel and get a square cut.


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## Moz (Nov 13, 2015)

well, I have enough birch plywood, And I think some of my wood is cherry and possibly oak for the damn dreaded runner.
One runner cuts my obsession in half...
No fancy back rail, no safety block, but it will be a sled. A scary, yet simple to construct sled.
If Saint Norm says it works, who am I to doubt?
I can always make a fancier one, maybe even one with two rails someday...By then maybe I'll be confident enough to make a Super Sled...That is SO nifty looking with the slots and all...*sigh*

Okay. The SUV died, hopefully just a battery. Tomorrow morning will be vehicle aggravation. Ozer will grumble, me and the cats will try to stay out of sight.
Then adjust table saw, and try to make sled.
I like the "less than a lifetime" thought of making it in an hour or two.

And yes, there will be pictures. And probably Ozer video taping it as well...
~M


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## cocobolo1 (Dec 31, 2015)

Moz said:


> well, I have enough birch plywood, And I think some of my wood is cherry and possibly oak for the damn dreaded runner.
> One runner cuts my obsession in half...
> No fancy back rail, no safety block, but it will be a sled. A scary, yet simple to construct sled.
> If Saint Norm says it works, who am I to doubt?
> ...


Good Luck Moz!


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Not liking the sound of that 'no safety block' part...
It ain't a piano, Moz; slap some extra ht. on that area over the blade path!

Some people (also) put really coarse sandpaper on top in that spot, to remind you to_ keep your hands out of that zone!!!_


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## woodknots (Mar 7, 2012)

DaninVan said:


> Not liking the sound of that 'no safety block' part...
> It ain't a piano, Moz; slap some extra ht. on that area over the blade path!
> 
> Some people (also) put really coarse sandpaper on top in that spot, to remind you to_ keep your hands out of that zone!!!_


I think in this case a spike strip would be appropriate >


----------



## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

It isn't as dangerous as it seems Moz. The best place to push is just to the outside of the runner going from the blade. I usually push with my left hand and the sled is on the right side of the saw so I'm nowhere near the blade when I'm using it. Your hand will be at least 5 to 6" away from the blade as the sled goes past it.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Keep in mind, Charles, Moz hasn't even used the saw yet and she's already dropping safety features. 
It's one thing for an experienced woodworker to do it but a really bad idea for a complete TS novice.
I like Vince's idea! This should work... 
Ufiyona - Bird Control Products


----------



## Shop guy (Nov 22, 2012)

*My sled*

@Moz
The first picture shows my sled.
The next picture shows the runners.
The next one shows a stop block to limit sled travel in the storage 
position.
Next one show stop block in place to prevent blade reaching fingers.
Next one is a stop block for the fence held in storage with a magnet.
Last is fence block hanging on back side of fence.


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## Moz (Nov 13, 2015)

I don't want to drop anything! I like the idea of the block at the back where the sharp dangerous things can come and hurt me.
Someone here, I believe, showed their sled, and it had a big, bright red stop block on the back.

You can blame Saint Norm for this one! His 'quickie' sled has a minimalist fence, which already scares me... I thought about using a 2x4...I've also seen a box made from little pieces of plywood scrap.

I just figured I would have to position myself away from that area, and be uber paranoid as the blade gets close...

I also figured out that my portable contractors TS does not need a gigantic sled like most of the ones in vids. I don't need a 4" sled, just one about the size of my saw's tabletop. It has a slide on the side giving me up to 30" right rip, and 14" left rip, but table size is basically 20"x26". 
Should I cut it to fit? Or allow an extra 1/2" or 1" overhang?

I like the spike strip. Healthy fear will only suffice until I'm familiar with the sound and feel. Once comfortable is when you get careless...An air horn that would sound every time I get near the center would work, too.

New battery for the SUV is turning into a major seek and acquire mission. Went to 2 auto parts stores, it's too old, they only have 'newer' model batteries...It's not THAT old, just late 90s...Don't want to go through the Lexus dealership, they charge like it's gold plated lead. Now I understand why...

~M


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## woodknots (Mar 7, 2012)

Well thought out Richard - you've got the bases covered.


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## woodknots (Mar 7, 2012)

Moz said:


> I don't want to drop anything! I like the idea of the block at the back where the sharp dangerous things can come and hurt me.
> Someone here, I believe, showed their sled, and it had a big, bright red stop block on the back.
> 
> *You can blame Saint Norm for this one! His 'quickie' sled has a minimalist fence, which already scares me*... I thought about using a 2x4...I've also seen a box made from little pieces of plywood scrap.
> ...


Regardless of which fence you use, it's all about *NOT BEING CARELES*S. Unless I'm using my GRR..PRR, my hands don't go within 6" of the blade - that's the danger zone. And it took me a while to get comfortable with the GRRPR.

The first time I used the GRRPR was actually a dry run - blade wasn't turning cause I wanted to see and test what I was going to do and how comfortable I was with the procedure.
Even now after using the GRRPR for a while, I still never lose focus.


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## Moz (Nov 13, 2015)

I love the handle grip on the fence. Especially since it is connected to a blade block. Less chance for my hand to be in the wrong place.
I do not understand the fence block on the back, left of the handled blade block. What is that for?

The stop block is attached to the outfeed table?
My TS is a contractor 'portable' model. I will only *for now* be cutting 1x12's with the sled, so I don't yet have an outfeed table. Should I mount a stop block onto the TS itself?

~M


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## Shop guy (Nov 22, 2012)

@Moz, the fence block was only shown that way for illustration purposes. The stop block on the outfeed table has a dowel that goes in a hole so as to limit travel. 
Once you start using the saw more things will become apparent to you.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Moz; Phew!


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## JFPNCM (Dec 13, 2009)

A word of caution re that vertical handle, make certain your shirt sleeve isn't dangling when your hand is on that handle.


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## Shop guy (Nov 22, 2012)

Make certain your shirt sleeve isn't dangling when you use any power tool.


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

DaninVan said:


> Not liking the sound of that 'no safety block' part...
> It ain't a piano, Moz; slap some extra ht. on that area over the blade path!
> 
> Some people (also) put really coarse sandpaper on top in that spot, to remind you to_ keep your hands out of that zone!!!_


...and paint it RED...


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## Moz (Nov 13, 2015)

Y'all are preaching to the choir, here. 
Watch Norm Abrams make that sled in his Power Saw Yankee Workshop episode.
_HE_ is the one who uses a little 1x2 as the back fence, no blade stop, no red, no handle, no sandpaper, no spike strips. Nothing.

I will be attaching SOMETHING, SOMEHOW, and will paint it bright red. Maybe with bamboo skewers poking out... 

Going through the myriad of You Tube videos again, I am starting to see how some are examples of obsessive overkill. if I had a humongous TS, I'd be tempted, but they look as big as a trundle bed!
~M


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

"HE is the one who uses a little 1x2 as the back fence, no blade stop, no red, no handle, no sandpaper, no spike strips. Nothing."

You're on the right bus, Moz! 

That's a perfect illustration of what I was saying about novices being led into dangerous territory. Good catch!


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Nickp said:


> ...and paint it RED...


glow in the dark orange...


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

*Power Outage?*



Stick486 said:


> glow in the dark orange...


Why would you be using your TS in the dark?


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

DaninVan said:


> Why would you be using your TS in the dark?


be different...


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## cocobolo1 (Dec 31, 2015)

DaninVan said:


> Why would you be using your TS in the dark?


...forgot to pay the power bill.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

cocobolo1 said:


> ...forgot to pay the power bill.


just the lighting portion...


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## cocobolo1 (Dec 31, 2015)

Stick486 said:


> just the lighting portion...


the generator runs the T/S. They forgot to plug the lights in.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

cocobolo1 said:


> the generator runs the T/S. They forgot to plug the lights in.


correct...


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## Moz (Nov 13, 2015)

DaninVan said:


> "HE is the one who uses a little 1x2 as the back fence, no blade stop, no red, no handle, no sandpaper, no spike strips. Nothing."
> 
> You're on the right bus, Moz!
> 
> That's a perfect illustration of what I was saying about novices being led into dangerous territory. Good catch!


Dan, when I first got my Router Table a few months ago, and started TS hunting, and reading, and YT vid watching, I somehow came across one an online warning that the runners would make or break your sled's effectiveness. It was presented as of such importance, that I have in turns, obsessed, worried, fixated, and worried some more about trying to build a crosscut sled, long before I even got the table saw...

Mind you, I only got into this manufacturing bug, when the best price I could find for a "half hive," 5-frame Nucleus box was $25 on e-bay. It was Cypress, but was a 'second,' with uneven box joints showing gaps and warps in the teeth.
I KNEW I could build something of better quality, for less, but am now old enough that a 50 year old, never been sharpened hand saw, and a couple Dremel tools would make the project take forever and a day, and I don't have that much time on the planet left...lol!

So I studied Crosscut sleds. And of course, everyone's is "teh bestest." And of course, the only commercially made one was by Rockler, for an outrageous amount of money, for a very small little thing...
But, in the name of SAFETY (MY #1 concern, as when you get old, that "I'm INVINCIBLE!" attitude has been beaten down by experience, injury, and scars), I fixated on the sleds with nice, BIG, thick back rails, and thought out blade stops.

Norm Abrams has another Table Saw sled video, and that sled is NOTHING like the 'down and dirty,' quickie sled. That one is big, and awesome looking.

I'm sure someone here did a Show and Tell, with a beautiful bright red blade stop block on their sled. That was my first indicator that a blade stop is uber important.
So yeah, I was a bit disappointed that Saint Norm's sled, quick and easy as it may be, is somewhat sorely lacking in basic safety features.

But it makes me SO appreciative of RF, and every one of you, for ALL the advice, suggestions, education, ribbings, and smiles you have given me.
It encourages me and reassures me in my clueless and blind efforts to provide shelters for thousands of homeless little girls in yellow and black striped outfits...

~M


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## cocobolo1 (Dec 31, 2015)

Moz, I was searching for jigs by Matthias Wandel, and an adaption made by this fellow was being used to make BEE HIVES!

Thought you might be interested.


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## bryansong (Mar 4, 2015)

tomp913 said:


> I think the link to this video has been posted before but it presents a very down-to-earth approach to building a sled, including a section on how to fit the runners to the table grooves at about 17 minutes into the video. 5 Cuts To A ?Perfect? Cross Cut Sled | William Ng School of Fine Woodworking


Tom, I think this is a good one and really learned a lot from the William Ng video. I will be watching that one a few more times
to kind of burn it in.

Last night I picked up a 5'x5' sheet of Baltic Birch and going to follow his directions as well as I can with the exception of the Plexiglas shield and routing out the mounting for that. Where he glued up the three 1/2 pieces of ply for the front and rear of the sleds will be a challenge because I don't have a really flat surface like he had to clamp to, plus, I don't have near as many clamps. 
And, handling that large of a sheet of plywood to cut down to size will be a handful.


Thanks,
Bryan


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Moz a sled either does the job or doesn't, "better than" is a bells and whistles term that has more fluff to it than fact. The two basic types are 1 runner and 2 runner. Mine is the 1 runner with open front (most of the single runners probably are open). This design is better for larger panels. The 2 runner would be better for lumber cut off but limits the size of panel you can put on pretty severely. The single runner is also better for longer cut offs as a 2 runner that has that much support surface would be unwieldy. Yes it is easier to put a blade guard on the 2 runner. I suppose it could be done on the 1 runner but the sled would have to be longer out the back to allow for the attachment of it. I've been using my single runner sled for at least 15 years without even one close call for 2 reasons. One is that my hand is never closer than 4 inches to the blade. The other is that when I turn the saw on *I stay totally focused.* Putting guards on to make up for careless work habits is not a solution in my mind. You can only guard something to a point and then proper work practices have to take over.


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## cocobolo1 (Dec 31, 2015)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> I've been using my single runner sled for at least 15 years without even one close call for 2 reasons. One is that my hand is never closer than 4 inches to the blade. The other is that when I turn the saw on *I stay totally focused.* Putting guards on to make up for careless work habits is not a solution in my mind. You can only guard something to a point and then proper work practices have to take over.


Well said Charles.

I couldn't agree more...when the switch is turned on...don't let anything distract you. All it takes is one tiny slip.


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## cocobolo1 (Dec 31, 2015)

bryansong said:


> Tom, I think this is a good one and really learned a lot from the William Ng video. I will be watching that one a few more times
> to kind of burn it in.
> 
> Last night I picked up a 5'x5' sheet of Baltic Birch and going to follow his directions as well as I can with the exception of the Plexiglas shield and routing out the mounting for that. Where he glued up the three 1/2 pieces of ply for the front and rear of the sleds will be a challenge because I don't have a really flat surface like he had to clamp to, plus, I don't have near as many clamps.
> ...


Bryan, you can always use the top of your table saw for clamping to, just get a piece of plywood that is about 6" wider and longer than your saw top. Then add some pieces of 1 x 2 - or anything similar - to the underside so the plywood stays in place.

Then you will have a decent clamping surface (the plywood) for your glue ups. And until such time as you make yourself that nice workbench you have always wanted, you will have a dedicated flat surface.

Nobody EVER has enough clamps!


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## bryansong (Mar 4, 2015)

*Gluing surface*



cocobolo1 said:


> Bryan, you can always use the top of your table saw for clamping to, just get a piece of plywood that is about 6" wider and longer than your saw top. Then add some pieces of 1 x 2 - or anything similar - to the underside so the plywood stays in place.
> 
> Then you will have a decent clamping surface (the plywood) for your glue ups. And until such time as you make yourself that nice workbench you have always wanted, you will have a dedicated flat surface.
> 
> Nobody EVER has enough clamps!


Ok, I'll need to figure out what you're saying but I don't have time now, I'm getting ready to leave work ( I hear its getting slick). I like the sound of your idea but so far I haven't found a good way to clamp to the saw top. I bet I just haven't tried hard enough.

Thanks!


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

bryansong said:


> Ok, I'll need to figure out what you're saying but I don't have time now, I'm getting ready to leave work ( I hear its getting slick). I like the sound of your idea but so far I haven't found a good way to clamp to the saw top. I bet I just haven't tried hard enough.
> 
> Thanks!


You can get a bunch of "F" clamps at Harbor freight for a reasonable price. They are good clamps, the grey ones with the soft rubber handles are a good buy, I have a dozen or so of them in assorted lengths. and they do a good job.

Herb


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## bryansong (Mar 4, 2015)

Herb,

We've got a Harbor Freight here in town and we also have a Northern Tools so I could check both places.
Thanks for the tip.

Bryan


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## Shop guy (Nov 22, 2012)

Brian, I agree with Herb about the HF clamps. I've got several of the F clamps but don't buy any of their plastic ones. Those are junk IMO.


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## roofner (Aug 1, 2010)

Moz I think you should just go for it you must have some scrap plywood 1/2 inch thick make some runners or buy some 3/8 x 3/4 inch bar
stock. Nice couple pieces of straight 2 x 4. Square your runners to you factory edge of the plywood. Put one piece of 2 x 4 lined up with back edge of the sled.


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## bryansong (Mar 4, 2015)

*Harbor Freight F clamps*

I really find only one F clamp other than the bar clamp at harbor freight.

Is this what you're thinking for $14.99?
Search results for: 'f clamps'

Bryan


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## Ratbob (Apr 6, 2015)

Search HF for "Quick Release Bar Clamps"


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Gary; Moz had no TS up till now, so probably not much scrap anything... that'll change.


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

bryansong said:


> I really find only one F clamp other than the bar clamp at harbor freight.
> 
> Is this what you're thinking for $14.99?
> Search results for: 'f clamps'
> ...


Try this one, Brian. 6 in. Quick Release Bar Clamp

Herb


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## bryansong (Mar 4, 2015)

Herb Stoops said:


> Try this one, Brian. 6 in. Quick Release Bar Clamp
> 
> Herb


Thanks Herb, that's a much better price.

Bryan


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## bryansong (Mar 4, 2015)

Herb Stoops said:


> Try this one, Brian. 6 in. Quick Release Bar Clamp
> 
> Herb


Herb,

I stopped by Harbor Freight this evening and picked up 8 of them. Thanks for the tip and the link.

Bryan


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## bryansong (Mar 4, 2015)

*Cocobolo1, I think I got ya now.*



cocobolo1 said:


> Bryan, you can always use the top of your table saw for clamping to, just get a piece of plywood that is about 6" wider and longer than your saw top. Then add some pieces of 1 x 2 - or anything similar - to the underside so the plywood stays in place.
> 
> Then you will have a decent clamping surface (the plywood) for your glue ups. And until such time as you make yourself that nice workbench you have always wanted, you will have a dedicated flat surface.
> 
> Nobody EVER has enough clamps!



Just need some clarity, will the plywood be on the side touching what I am gluing or the side the clamp foot is on?

Bryan


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Just one word of caution about using table saws for work tops. If the are the lightweight aluminum tops they can bend under too much weight so keep it down to reasonably small parts.


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## bryansong (Mar 4, 2015)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> Just one word of caution about using table saws for work tops. If the are the lightweight aluminum tops they can bend under too much weight so keep it down to reasonably small parts.


Thanks, I do have a cast iron top with both wings also being cast.
I'll start Saturday and I look forward to it.

Bryan


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