# Question for the kitchen reno guys



## 163481 (Jul 8, 2015)

I need to replace our old, chipped porcelain over cast iron kitchen sink. My wife wants stainless steel but I have some durability concerns. The BORG advertises a 22 ga. stainless unit for $110 and a 20 ga. for $400. Both are described as "durable" but I suspect they're pretty thin. I'm looking for something that will not dent if a frying pan is dropped in it (from an inch or two, not 3 feet).

Another thing: The dimensions of the old sink, measured to the inside edge of the separate top rim, is 31-1/2 X 20-1/2. The new sinks generally say 33 X 19 or 19-1/2. Depth of the old sink is 6-1/4...the new ones are 6-1/4 or 7-1/4.

Suggestions? Comments?


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## Semipro (Mar 22, 2013)

Well Chuck stainless steel dents just like porcelain chips, for me it's the wife's kitchen let her have what she wants tell her don't drop anything in the sink 
The heavier the gauge the better the sink They also come insulated and non insulated, The better the sink the more they cost


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## 163481 (Jul 8, 2015)

This may become a moot question. The wife and I just had a conversation about replacing the counter tops with quartz or some other solid surface. No decision has been made yet so I'm still interested in answers from the experts here.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Your biggest issue will be if the new sink will cover the old hole and tighten down. Here are some pictures of various type hold downs and you need to tighten them against the underside of the counter top so if the sink is too much smaller than the cutout there will not be anything there to tighten against. Therefore it is a hard question to answer without actually seeing the existing cutout and being able to measure the new sink. https://www.google.ca/search?q=sink...oTCP7SptC0g8cCFZJ-iAod0fUM4A&biw=1920&bih=943

20 gauge is heavier than 22 but no guarantee that any of them will resist dropping a cast frying pan into them. I had a cheap $89 sink split once from pouring boiling hot water into it. Too many cycles of heat and cold stresses for it I guess.

Hooking the new one up to the old drain may require re-doing the drains. Height probably is not an issue as the connections that are there should have slip joints but the new sink may not be on the same centers as the old one. ABS is pretty easy to work with so that should not be a big deal.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Making your own counter top out of particle board or mdf and counter top laminate will cost you around say $300 for an average size kitchen. If, in 10 or 15 years you tire of it, it will not cost you that much to replace it. When you spend the money buying quartz or Corian you won`t be replacing it any time soon. Be sure that is the way you want to go before you pull the trigger on that one.


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## tomp913 (Mar 7, 2014)

What is more important, assuming that you're not planning on replacing the old countertop, is the comparison of the size of the actual cutouts. A top mount sink that's 33 x 19 is going to have a smaller cutout. If you are measuring to the inside of the Hudee (sp?) rim, it sounds as if the hole in the countertop may be too large for a standard sink.

As far as durability, I'd think that the SS would be a little more forgiving of having a frying pan dropped in it - plus you can polish them to remove scratches if necessary, dents not so much. A 20 ga sink has .037" material, a 220 ga is .031" - if you're worried about durability, Kohler makes some nice sinks in 18 ga stainless 33" x 22" so it may have a cutout larger than the old sink - and 18 ga stainless at ,050" is considerable thicker - list price is $895. I have a 25 year old Kohler in the kitchen, and feel that the extra cost was well worth it. What a coincidence, my wife yesterday started a conversation with, "How hard is it to take out the old countertop?" - she also is looking at quartz, and I'm thinking that she'll consider the old sink too shabby to reuse with a shiny new top.

Tom


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## 163481 (Jul 8, 2015)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> ...may require re-doing the drains.


I've installed two new garbage disposers in the 30 years we've been here so I've redone the drains twice. I don't think that will be a problem.

Just as an aside, we bought the house from an inexperienced tradesman who had done some atrocious work like epoxying a broken waste pipe under the sink to the T leading into the stack. I had to chisel that out. When I did that I found that the nipple had broken off and he apparently didn't know how to remove the jagged ring with a half-dozen threads on it that remained. I hit it once with a center punch and the ring broke out cleanly allowing me to thread in a new nipple. 

He had also jury-rigged a trap system under the main bath vanity made of four plastic els GLUED so the whole thing had to come out as a single piece. I replaced that with a real P-trap and associated piping.


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## 163481 (Jul 8, 2015)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> Be sure that is the way you want to go before you pull the trigger on that one.


I hear that. We've been discussing this off and on for a few years so I think she's pretty well settled on what she wants.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Pretty well covered already. I'd avoid porcelain like the plague!!! 
SS is the perfect kitchen sink; look at any commercial kitchen..._everything_ is SS. Pretty forgiving as far as chipping fine diningware; porcelain not so much. 
18GA if you can afford it.

Canadian made 18GA...
Novanni Elite | Product Categories |


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Commercial plumbing supply will have what you need and better..
way better than any Borg out there...
if you special order a good sink through a Borg that is where they will be going to get it......


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## 163481 (Jul 8, 2015)

Thanks, Dan. And thanks to everyone who weighed in on this.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

sfchuck said:


> This may become a moot question. The wife and I just had a conversation about replacing the counter tops with quartz or some other solid surface. No decision has been made yet so I'm still interested in answers from the experts here.


1st thing you do is determine if the cabinets you have and if the floor framing will support those solid counter tops...
if they can't, go with a cultured top that only appear to be thick...
cultured tops are real money savers too...


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

What Stick said.
Most Plbg. wholesalers will sell things like sinks to the non-trades person, but at retail price. If you don't have an account expect to pay more (than Trade price).
If they're small and hungry you may luck out.


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## 163481 (Jul 8, 2015)

Stick486 said:


> ...determine if the cabinets you have and if the floor framing will support those solid counter tops...


Don't think that a problem. The cabinets are 3/4 ply and the floor framing is 4X6 under the subfloor about 48 o/c. Oh, and that area is right adjacent to the central load-bearing wall. There are footers underneath.


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

Huh...48 o/c...?


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

48 OC won't work...
there must be swales between the joist and the is springier than a trampoline...


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Yeh but think of the comfort factor!


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

drop something and all you need to is catch it on the rebound...


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## 163481 (Jul 8, 2015)

Stick486 said:


> 48 OC won't work...


Trust me...that's what it is. I've been under the house more than once. I failed to mention that the sub floor is is old dimension 2X8, probably Doug fir.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

old house... huh...


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Solid decking is great stuff, but horrendously expensive in today's dollars.
2x6 T&G shown:
http://www.dougfirflooring.com/medi...a9c230972d/2/x/2x6_t_g_doug_fir_deck_1__1.jpg


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## 163481 (Jul 8, 2015)

Stick486 said:


> old house... huh...


Yeah, sixty some years. But still keeps the wolves away.


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## 163481 (Jul 8, 2015)

DaninVan said:


> Solid decking...


Yup, that's it. Roof decking is the same.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

60 years isn't old. That was built a decade after me! (Wash your mouth out with soap, Chuck.)


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

DaninVan said:


> Solid decking is great stuff, but horrendously expensive in today's dollars.
> 2x6 T&G shown:
> http://www.dougfirflooring.com/medi...a9c230972d/2/x/2x6_t_g_doug_fir_deck_1__1.jpg


we do that here but w/ 3x6 or 3x8 T&G fir...
we build for a minimum of 120# snow load...


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## 163481 (Jul 8, 2015)

I may not have stated the floor framing accurately (remember, I said _about_ 48" o/c). Looking at the roof framing, it's also 4x6 but with 36 inch centers and carried TONS of tar and gravel before the original roof was replaced with closed-cell foam. The floor framing is probably the same, i.e., 36" o/c.

By the way, my late step dad was a house builder for 54 years. You can tell that I learned some of the jargon and have some knowledge of materials, codes, etc., but only worked for the company briefly as a teenager.

That's why I have to ask the real experts...you folks...for advice.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

*Snowball in Hell Chance*



Stick486 said:


> we do that here but w/ 3x6 or 3x8 T&G fir...
> we build for a minimum of 120# snow load...


I think you should go up on the roof and sweep the snow off, Stick...


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

let it set...
good insulation..


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## john60 (Aug 30, 2014)

If you are going with solid surface counters look at intergal sink. No lips, rings or grooves to catch junk


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## 163481 (Jul 8, 2015)

Stick486 said:


> ...cultured tops are real money savers too...


Stick, do you have a source or manufacturer for cultured counter tops? Also, can they be had in non-standard counter top widths? I have a peninsula that is 35 X 42-1/4.

I did a little reading on them and one big downside seems to be that you cannot use an under-mount sink with them. Comment?


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

sfchuck said:


> Stick, do you have a source or manufacturer for cultured counter tops? Also, can they be had in non-standard counter top widths? I have a peninsula that is 35 X 42-1/4.
> 
> I did a little reading on them and one big downside seems to be that you cannot use an under-mount sink with them. Comment?


here I do.. but not where you are..
the yellow pages for your locale is your friend..


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## thomas1389 (Jan 4, 2012)

Stick486 said:


> Commercial plumbing supply will have what you need and better..
> way better than any Borg out there...
> if you special order a good sink through a Borg that is where they will be going to get it......


Here's a dumb Question: What's a BORG ?


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

BORG = Big Orange Box = Home desperate = generic for home center = Lowes, Menard's and etc...


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## thomas1389 (Jan 4, 2012)

Stick486 said:


> 48 OC won't work...
> there must be swales between the joist and the is springier than a trampoline...


I worked for a homebuilder in California in the early 60's. Built tract houses in Napa, Vacaville and Davis. No basements. Just a framework of 6" x 6" timbers on piers covered with a sub floor of 2" x 6" Redwood. Yes, Redwood. Something I'd never seen before, coming from a land of cement blocks and 2" x 8" Spruce.


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## thomas1389 (Jan 4, 2012)

Stick486 said:


> BORG = Big Orange Box = Home desperate = generic for home center = Lowes, Menard's and etc...


Thanks, Stick.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

thomas1389 said:


> I worked for a homebuilder in California in the early 60's. Built tract houses in Napa, Vacaville and Davis. No basements. Just a framework of 6" x 6" timbers on piers covered with a sub floor of 2" x 6" Redwood. Yes, Redwood. Something I'd never seen before, coming from a land of cement blocks and 2" x 8" Spruce.


must have got a deal...


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## MT Stringer (Aug 15, 2012)

We had a stainless steel sink ever since we bought the house in 1987. It was four years old. It lasted all of those years, even if it was a builder special.

When we remodeled our kitchen, she picked out the counter top and sink. she's happy...so I am happy! :grin:

We replaced the old laminate (butcher block design) with Silstone. No upkeep ever.

Good luck with your kitchen redo.

Here is a link to our efforts.
Mike


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## 163481 (Jul 8, 2015)

thomas1389 said:


> What's a BORG ?


Big Orange Retail Giant, i.e., Home Depot. It's kinda become a generic term for home centers.


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## 163481 (Jul 8, 2015)

MT Stringer said:


> Here is a link to our efforts.
> Mike


Nice work, Mike. Very well done. 

We're not going to get that complicated. We're just doing the counter tops and sink. I MIGHT make Shaker-style doors for the existing cabinets to replace the slabs but that's all we have planned.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

*Borg*



thomas1389 said:


> Thanks, Stick.


There just pulling your chain, Thomas...
Here's BORG 7of 9
http://www.artasylum.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/7of9.jpg

:nerd:


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

DaninVan said:


> There just pulling your chain, Thomas...
> Here's BORG 7of 9
> http://www.artasylum.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/7of9.jpg
> 
> :nerd:


oh my...


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

DaninVan said:


> There just pulling your chain, Thomas...
> Here's BORG 7of 9
> http://www.artasylum.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/7of9.jpg
> 
> :nerd:


I thought she was 6 of 9 ?


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

All of that and more...


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## stanzee (Dec 9, 2010)

We replaced our counter tops with a good quality laminate (budget considerations). At the same time ordered the sink so the cutout was made to fit. The sink is granite which we like very much. Wondering how granite? I am assuming that it is granite dust cast into the shape of a sink. Does not show marks and don't expect it to be damaged at least not to this point.


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## thomas1389 (Jan 4, 2012)

DaninVan said:


> There just pulling your chain, Thomas...
> Here's BORG 7of 9
> http://www.artasylum.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/7of9.jpg
> 
> :nerd:


Thanks to Stick and Chuck for their meaningful replies but I'm leanin' to BORG 7 out of sheer curiosity.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

thomas1389 said:


> Thanks to Stick and Chuck for their meaningful replies but I'm leanin' to BORG 7 out of sheer curiosity.


make careful note of where the SO is when you do that...


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Just did new quartz counter tops and went to a plumbing supply and had a very experienced guy track down the heaviest weight SS sink, which they had in stock. Nice and deep too. Your choices are a bit more limited if it goes in under the counter top instead of on top.
Happy wife, happy life.


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