# Benchtop Table Saw?



## kawisser (Aug 15, 2011)

I'm very limited on space, but I would like to get a table saw. Are there any decent benchtop table saws?


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Kevin; the question really is what do you want to accomplish with it? All the flooring and cab. installers I know use "benchtop" tablesaws on the jobsites. A finish carpenter who's doing the interior and exterior trim and will be on the site for perhaps a couple of weeks or more will usually haul a 10" contractor saw onto the site. It'll be set up in the garage or other fixed location for the duration. The 10" with a bigger table, and likely plywood extensions, obviously is more practical. The 8" benchtops aren't great for casework, or ripping long lengths of 2" lumber, never mind crosscutting heavier stuff.
As for brand choices, I always check out Bosch, Porter Cable, and Delta as my baseline when I'm buying new tools; I may buy something else but at least I know what's being offered to the trades.


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## MikeMa (Jul 27, 2006)

Personally, I would see if I could rework my shop space to see if I could fit a contractor style (cast iron top, belt drive motor) table saw, even if it is for a used craigslist saw. 

The issue is most benchtop/jobsite saws are not built to the same tight standards as a saw with a cast iron top and steal body would have. I have read that these saws are built to last about 3-5 years (which my own experience has shown to be true), where things just start to break down on them.

That said, if I had to buy a jobsite/benchtop saw today, I would either get the Bosch or the Dewalt, as I have found their benchtop products to be better than most others. One thing to be aware of is that price of these saws are approaching the cost of a good contractor or hybrid table saw (Grizzly has one under $1000). So I say again, evaluate your space and see if you can find away to get a bigger saw into you shop space, even if it means putting stuff on wheels to be moved around.


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## CharleyL (Feb 28, 2009)

I fully agree with Mike. If it's at all possible get a Contractors saw, even if it's a used one. You will have a much more accurate, longer life saw than any benchtop saw on the market. 

Charley


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## Timberline (Oct 17, 2009)

Kevin,

I was in the same position you are in. I too didn't have much shop space and since I may be moving across the country soon, I didn't want to get a stationary saw. I only had expirience with a Delta shopmaster. It was very cheaply made and was not acurate enough for the woodworking I wanted to do. The arbor was also undersized and would except a dado set. Based on my experience with the shopmaster, I thought that if I wanted a good saw I would need a contractor or cabinet saw. 

But I ended up getting a Bosch 4000 (same as the new 4100 except for the riving knife and gravity rise stand) with a folding stand used on craigslist. It has 4 hp, will make a 25" cut left of the fence and is accurate and smooth enough for my needs. I can't imagine a contractors saw being much better. 

I would encourage you to look at the Bosch or the Makita. Both are the best bench top saws out there. If you don't need a stand, I would take a look at the Bosch GTS1031. It is just under $370 new.

http://www.amazon.com/Bosch-GTS1031-10-Inch-Portable-Jobsite/dp/B004O7FX20


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## kp91 (Sep 10, 2004)

I had a BT3000 Ryobi saw, halfway between a benchtop and a contractor's saw. It was light enough that I could take it off the stand and put in on a shelf when I wasn't using it, but had a great sliding table.

BT3central.com is a forum devoted to that saw, and can provide you more information.

They pop up on Craigslist Ryobi BT3000 BenchTop Saw from time to time.

the only reason I graduated to a bigger saw was that when I used sheet goods, I could push the saw while feeding the stock. It was incredible for small/medium projects.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Timberline; was that "4HP" a typo?!
In theory at least, if it's a portable it's probably wired for 120V /15 AMP. The largest motor possible would be 1 1/2HP for that power supply. 
http://www.kevinsbrady.net/motors.pdf

That's really the big advantage of the contractor saws; they usually have dual voltage, or 220V, motors and at that voltage can handle up to a 3HP motor. 
Cheers,
-Dan


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## bobbotron (Jan 7, 2010)

I have the Rigid R4510 (without the stand). I like it a fair bit, and would probably buy it again, but it definitely has its pros and cons. 

Pros
Lots of power for what I do (rip 1" thick hard woods, cut small sheet goods, rip thicker pine.)
Seems to be fairly tough
Decent dust port

Cons
The blade plate doesn't fit 100% precisely flat on the table, and I don't think it's adjustable - this caused me a little headache on my last project.
The mitre gauge seems to have a lot of play in it, I've yet to adjust this out
Riving knife setup is weird in the lower position, it either needs adjustment or is slightly bent. Not a big fan of it.
Table is a bit short, you need outfeed support - in a small shop (like mine) I find you're always moving junk around to set up the saw. Sigh, no way around it, there's hardly the space for the little saw.

Overall I like the saw, it was a toss up between it and the dewalt. I think I maybe wish I bought the dewalt, but I think I would have come up with the same issues with the throat plate, and definitely would have with the short table.


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## Cochese (Jan 12, 2010)

You may want to take a look at the Craftsman 21829, for $399 currently if you're a Craftsman Club member. Folds up and rolls when you don't need it.

Sears: Online department store featuring appliances, tools, fitness equipment and more

It's the spiritual successor to the Ryobi BT series, and I can cut 8/4 hard maple with the right blade and speed. It comes with a decent enough guard and riving knife.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

May I put in a 'plug' for Jim Tolpin's 'Tablesaw Magic' ?
Amazon.ca: table saw magic

Really thorough, well illustrated and full of jigs etc. that I wouldn't otherwise have known about.


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## Drew Eckhardt (Aug 2, 2008)

Timberline said:


> But I ended up getting a Bosch 4000 (same as the new 4100 except for the riving knife and gravity rise stand) with a folding stand used on craigslist.


I have one of the Bosch 4000s too since it's easy to move in and out (for cutting MDF which makes a huge mess) of a garage. It's accurate and works fine for most things.

Caveats:
- you're limited to 25" right of the blade

- there's less space in front of the blade than on a contractor's saw (although a miter sled can gain you enough room for stock around 12" wide)

- the miter gauge slot is not machined (they fixed that on the 4100) so you need to push the miter sled against one side to minimize wobbles as you move into a wide part.

- the miter slots are farther from the blade and it's a left-tilt model so you may have issues with some commercially produced jigs (thin rip, tenoning, etc.)

- it's not as powerful as a table saw with a normal induction motor. No problem ripping 2x Douglas fir although I might worry about 8/4 oak.

- it's a left tilt saw

Some time I'll replace it with a contractor's saw but it's not horrible.


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## MikeMa (Jul 27, 2006)

DaninVan said:


> Timberline; was that "4HP" a typo?!
> In theory at least, if it's a portable it's probably wired for 120V /15 AMP. The largest motor possible would be 1 1/2HP for that power supply.
> http://www.kevinsbrady.net/motors.pdf
> 
> ...


He is probably right. I had a jobsite saw before my contractor saw that was rated at 4hp. The universal motors for direct drive saws use the high RPMs to give you a "developed" horse power rating. I am not sure what the actual HP rating is for those saws, but I am sure it is much lower than 4 HP. Higher end table saws (contractor on up) will use induction motors, which are typically a but more accurate in their HP rating (though many if not most inflate it too).

The issue is developed HP (which is often achieved with raising the RPMs, being that the momentum of the blade gives you some power) VS. actual HP which has nothing to do with the speed of the blade.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Hey, Mike; the only (for me) issue really is there's no way of doing a real world comparison between products. One HP is (about) 765 watts. That's the Laws of Physics not the marketing guys... 
I go straight to the motor label and check the Amp rating; I'm going on the assumption that the UL/CSA rating must be fairly accurate(?).
I'm eventually going to rewire my portable compressor to the 220V dual V. alternative, as I'm fed up with it popping breakers when it's stressed. 

The other point you bring up reflects on the extra effort req'd to overcome friction, and the actual work of cutting, on a 10" blade as opposed to a smaller 8" blade. 
There are times I'd actually like to have a very small saw and blade for doing fine work.
Cheers,
-Dan


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## rwl7532 (Sep 8, 2011)

After some research, I scanned craigslist waiting for a Makita 2703 as it had good reviews. To compliment it, I bought the Rousseau extension. That really made a big difference.

No, cutting a full panel of 3/4" plywood is out of the question.
But it does what I need so far and fits in my one car garage (on wheels of course).

Stock photo of Rousseau:


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## Timberline (Oct 17, 2009)

DaninVan said:


> Timberline; was that "4HP" a typo?!
> In theory at least, if it's a portable it's probably wired for 120V /15 AMP. The largest motor possible would be 1 1/2HP for that power supply.
> http://www.kevinsbrady.net/motors.pdf
> 
> ...



Dan,

Yes, sorry that was a typo. It's really 4.4 hp :yes4:

4000-09 10" Worksite Table Saw with Gravity-Rise™ Wheeled Stand | Bosch

Bosch 4000-07 15 amp 10-inch Worksite Table Saw with Folding Stand:Amazon:Home Improvement

I don't know much about electric motors, but according to everything I see it runs off 120v is 15 amp and has 4.4 hp.

This is an AWESOME saw!


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## wbh1963 (Oct 11, 2011)

kawisser said:


> I'm very limited on space, but I would like to get a table saw. Are there any decent benchtop table saws?


I am also afflicted by lack of space, so when I picked up my first TS, it turned out to be the low end Ryobi RTS20. I had been looking at table saws for about a year when I gave up making an 'informed decision' regarding units in the middle to higher end of the price ranges. I gave up 189.00 for the unit at Home Depot to get the ball rolling and learn what features are important by using and doing.

As it turns out, the fold up stand it came with turned out to be a 'huge' bonus for saving space. It does spend half the time tucked away under the workbench. It wouldn't be a huge effort to convert this unit to a table top model by putting some T-nuts on the underside of a section of plywood and using longer bolts than the ones that connect it to the folding stand.

My biggest 'gripe' about the unit is the 'rot gut' miter slots. Rather than using an insert, or actually machining a slot into a heavy cast table, they just 'faked' it. Skil does the same thing on their bottom of the line units. The Miter uses a 'thicker part down' T shaped rail that slides under two sets of tabs in a slot that is narrower than most 'third party accessories' can use. It also complicates the creation of cross cut sleds or box-joint jigs.

You mentioned an interest in smaller sized blades with regards to smoother cuts. I don't see any reason 8" blades couldn't be used on a 10" saw, especially since most 8" dado-stacks are used on 10" table saws!. I haven't had the need to put any of my 7.25" blades on it, but they have the same arbor size, so if I thought the blade was a better match to the material than the closest 10" blade I have, I would do it in a snap as long as the RPM ratings were compatible.

On the topic of horsepower, I think the density of the material being cut is the big thing there. Ripping up 4x4 fir is always going to be an easier cut than 2x2 oak would be. I do know that the Ryobi had no problem at all cutting up some used 4x4 posts down into 1x4 boards, and whatever it's HP rating is, I doubt it is on the high side.

One thing I have considered doing is crafting up some sort of multi purpose cover sheet to lay over the surface of my TS when it's not being used as a TS. In this way it could be used as a multi purpose table the rest of the time. The fold up stand does ok for cutting, but I wouldn't want to put it to the test of being a 'hand planing' friendly workbench.

Good Luck with your Quest!


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## Cochese (Jan 12, 2010)

Timberline said:


> Dan,
> 
> Yes, sorry that was a typo. It's really 4.4 hp :yes4:
> 
> ...


4.4HP? Perhaps right before all the smoke pours out. Bosch is using some math unknown to other humans.

http://www.veris.com/calculator.aspx


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

*Heh..."smoke" and mirrors?* 
Just having a little fun with ya, Timberline. If it's doing a great job for you, that's all that's really important. Having said that, and I know I'm repeating myself, but go with what's stamped on the motor label; it's the only meaningful info that you can trust. 
Here's an excellent discussion explaining the physics/math in lay terms, for electric motors rather than in the more usual automotive terms:
http://www.kevinsbrady.net/motors.pdf

Cheers,
-Dan


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## KCRich (Dec 26, 2011)

Sorry to hear you've been cursed with a small shop. I, too, have that same problem. At best mine is a 2 butt shop. My wife says it could be a 3 butt if I wasn't such a big one. But I'm too old to buy another house and move. Besides, this house is paid for. We have to deal with what we got, I guess.
Anyway...I, like bobbotron, also have the Ridgid R4510 and I love it. Bobbotron's assesment of the machine is spot on. It really is a good machine but there are definitely some areas of limitation. (And I'm kind of jealous of the guys with the big cabinet saws.)
An issue he did not mention, though, is the arbor length is rather short and there is not enough room for a full 3/4 inch dado stack and still have room left to secure the nut to recommended depth. (I took that recommendation seriously as I have no desire to experience having a dado stack come loose in a small shop.) But regarding the other issues he mentioned, I was able to resolve some of them with some addons. (Unfortunately table size is what it is) 
First I replaced the blade that came with the saw with a good Freud. Blade selection is very important if you like nice clean cuts. Second, I bought a couple of Leecraft zero clearance inserts from Woodcraft. They have a model for the R4510 that adjusts to a perfect fit. Next I replaced the miter gage with the Incra 1000HD. There are others on the market that probably work very well but this is the one I chose. And after using it for a while I think its way cool. I also got the Incra miter express to go with it and I must say it was money well spent. (Throwing some money at the project has really benefited my limited skill sets. But I'm determined to learn.) 
Another thing I wanted to mention is that even though the R4510 comes on a stand, it can be removed and placed on a bench. Then, if you need to take it elsewhere (or as the Mrs. says..."GET THAT DAMN THING OUT OF HERE" ) you can always reattach it. 
The main thing about whichever saw you decide on is to take the time to set it up and align it correctly. And this I can't stress enough. Even though mine was really close right out of the box, I did have to make some adjustments. And even small adjustments can net big results. 
Do not trust the saw to be right. Get a machinist square and other alignment tools and go through everything and verify. There are many smart folks on the internet who are happy to explain how to do this. (I'm new to this and that's how I found out) But take your time. Don't let a misaligned machine cause you to think you can't be good at wood working. (An old ******* SOB taught me that. We've been friends for 40 years now.)


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## MEBCWD (Jan 14, 2012)

Cocheseuga said:


> You may want to take a look at the Craftsman 21829, for $399 currently if you're a Craftsman Club member. Folds up and rolls when you don't need it.
> 
> Sears: Online department store featuring appliances, tools, fitness equipment and more
> 
> It's the spiritual successor to the Ryobi BT series, and I can cut 8/4 hard maple with the right blade and speed. It comes with a decent enough guard and riving knife.


I have the Craftsman 21829 and like it for most work I do now. You can also mount a router to the table extension.
I moved from a 24 x 40 shop to a 16 x 24 two story, the tools are on the ground floor and remember the stairway takes up some of the room. I also have a band saw, a scroll saw, a radial arm saw, and a ShopSmith knockoff with 6" jointer. That is just the saws I have. I also have a planer, 2 router tables, a shaper, a 10-20 drum sander, A CNC Shark Pro, a rolling stand with drill press and 12" disk sander mounted to it, 4 roll around tool chests and 2 - 24 x 60 work benches (one on wheels has a mini lathe and WorkSharp mounted to it. There is probably something else in there but I have not seen it in a while! I try to put everything on rollers. Im still trying to get everything organized!
Back to the Craftsman 21829, It has done everything I have ask of it and am please with the performance. I try to cut as much as possible with it when it is set up, then fold it up and put it away. everything stores right on the saw so you do not have to figure out where you put something. I have build small furniture projects and used it for home repairs as well

Mike


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## bobbotron (Jan 7, 2010)

KCRich said:


> Sorry to hear you've been cursed with a small shop. I, too, have that same problem. At best mine is a 2 butt shop. My wife says it could be a 3 butt if I wasn't such a big one. But I'm too old to buy another house and move. Besides, this house is paid for. We have to deal with what we got, I guess.
> Anyway...I, like bobbotron, also have the Ridgid R4510 and I love it. Bobbotron's assesment of the machine is spot on. It really is a good machine but there are definitely some areas of limitation. (And I'm kind of jealous of the guys with the big cabinet saws.)
> An issue he did not mention, though, is the arbor length is rather short and there is not enough room for a full 3/4 inch dado stack and still have room left to secure the nut to recommended depth. (I took that recommendation seriously as I have no desire to experience having a dado stack come loose in a small shop.) But regarding the other issues he mentioned, I was able to resolve some of them with some addons. (Unfortunately table size is what it is)
> First I replaced the blade that came with the saw with a good Freud. Blade selection is very important if you like nice clean cuts. Second, I bought a couple of Leecraft zero clearance inserts from Woodcraft. They have a model for the R4510 that adjusts to a perfect fit. Next I replaced the miter gage with the Incra 1000HD. There are others on the market that probably work very well but this is the one I chose. And after using it for a while I think its way cool. I also got the Incra miter express to go with it and I must say it was money well spent. (Throwing some money at the project has really benefited my limited skill sets. But I'm determined to learn.)
> ...


Good to hear someone else's experiences with this saw. Good point about the dado blade - I haven't tried it yet, I use my router for dados so I haven't run into that.

I 2nd what KCRich says about alignment. First thing I did was realign the rip fence on the saw, made a big difference. I think there's still more I can do - I think most of my issues with the saw are alignment, technique and lack of good infeed and outfeed support.

Ps: good to know about the zero clearance insert, I may pick one of those up one of these days.


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## Drew Eckhardt (Aug 2, 2008)

Cocheseuga said:


> 4.4HP? Perhaps right before all the smoke pours out. Bosch is using some math unknown to other humans.
> 
> http://www.veris.com/calculator.aspx


Horsepower is a rate of work defined as 550 foot-pounds per second, torque in foot-lbs * RPM / 5250, or approximately 746 Watts in metric lands. 

The FTC holds companies to this definition within a few percent.

The astute reader will note that the definition is silent on how long that power must be produced. 

It could be all day every day. Induction motors are rated that way.

It could be for a few seconds before the motor overheats and trips its thermal protection circuit just before its windings get hot enough to melt their insulation. 

It could be at a speed way less than you'd want to cut wood without tear out. Since universal motors as used in routers, benchtop saws, etc. produce more torque at low RPMs (peaking at 0, although horsepower there would be zero since it's a product of RPM and torque) they get rated at low speed.

It could be at a useful speed. Induction motors produce peak torque and power a bit below their synchronous RPM; so a 1.5HP table saw motor that'd run synchronously at 3600 RPM is likely to develop that at a rated 3450 RPM.

You can bet the Bosch rating is at low RPM where it's about to stop.

This is totally orthogonal to whether it's enough or not.


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## Cochese (Jan 12, 2010)

One day the table saw industry is going to meet the same fate as the mower industry, and stop using unrealistic numbers.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

The best defense, Cocheseuga, is an informed customer. Keep up the good fight!
Cheers,
-Dan


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## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

Cocheseuga said:


> One day the table saw industry is going to meet the same fate as the mower industry, and stop using unrealistic numbers.


They just changed to a different useless number! The displacement really does not tell much either. A 180cc Honda almost always outperforms a generic 210cc Chinese built engine!

I used to have heated discussions with customers after replacing motors on Craftsman contractor saws. They would see the new motors 1 1/2HP rating on the name plate and want to know why I put a 1.5HP motor on their 3HP(advertised!) saw.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

heh...Unfortunately, Duane, being on your business side of the counter sort of limits what you can say in response to the customers being uninformed, eh?
_"Sooo...what were you doing that burned out your 3HP motor?" _


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## KCRich (Dec 26, 2011)

I also forgot to mention...if you do get the R4510, there is a dado insert available on Amazon.com. It's metal just like the insert that comes with the saw. DO NOT BUY THIS INSERT! I don't know what saw it fits, but it's not a 4510. Looks nice hanging on my wall, though. Maybe one of you guys can give me ideas of what I can make with it. I ended up making one from a Leecraft blank. ( I live entirely too close to a Woodcraft store. But at least their kids will go to college.)


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## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

Yeah, do kinda just have to bite my tongue once in a while! Retired now, tho!


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## TheOakDude (Oct 11, 2011)

Just as a matter of observation which seem applicable here....
PA amplifiers used to be made in UK and USA and they were rated in Watts of power....
I have noticed rather dramatically that the new Chinese Watts do not equate to our western Watts. Literally Half it and you are about right..ie a 1000watt per side PA made in China actually equates to approx 500watts per side in reality...I know this as a matter of personal experience. Same Speakers, different Amps. half the volume and hence coverage.....its a shame, all they need to do to be taken seriously is be truthful and honest when rating the gear....then no one could possibly complain....as it is..people who dont know and take things on the spec data alone are left dissappointed and rather negatively biased.


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## rwl7532 (Sep 8, 2011)

TheOakDude said:


> Just as a matter of observation which seem applicable here....
> PA amplifiers used to be made in UK and USA and they were rated in Watts of power....
> I have noticed rather dramatically that the new Chinese Watts do not equate to our western Watts. Literally Half it and you are about right..ie a 1000watt per side PA made in China actually equates to approx 500watts per side in reality...I know this as a matter of personal experience. Same Speakers, different Amps. half the volume and hence coverage.....its a shame, all they need to do to be taken seriously is be truthful and honest when rating the gear....then no one could possibly complain....as it is..people who dont know and take things on the spec data alone are left dissappointed and rather negatively biased.


Wow. Just like politics.  :dirol:


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## Straightlines (May 15, 2013)

*Makita/Rousseau setup rocks*



rwl7532 said:


> After some research, I scanned craigslist waiting for a Makita 2703 as it had good reviews. To compliment it, I bought the Rousseau extension. That really made a big difference.
> 
> No, cutting a full panel of 3/4" plywood is out of the question.
> But it does what I need so far and fits in my one car garage (on wheels of course).
> ...


Yep, from my inquiries to many SF Bay Area cabinet shops and installers, this is the preferred setup. I followed their advice and put the setup together for my own use, and wow! it rivals the performance and accuracy of the contractor saws I've used. The Makita does have size limitations, but honestly these can be resolved thru the use of sleds, jigs, and proper work support. The work support is an important concept, because when we look at the very elaborate, accurate, and expensive cabinet saws out there, one of the key elements they possess are massive side tables and outfeed tables. Put your time and money into licking the work supports and you will be very far down your path. BTW, the Rousseau extension setup comes w/ a fence, which accommodates whichever sacrificial fence faces you put on it, be they short or long.


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