# Replacing lino with tile



## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

I`m replacing a cushioned lino floor with tile and using an uncoupling membrane and modified thinset underneath. Most of the on line stuff I`ve read and the manufacturer`s instructions say best is to remove the old lino. That part isn`t too bad but does the old glue need to come off too? Getting it off is proving to be a chore.


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## cocobolo1 (Dec 31, 2015)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> I`m replacing a cushioned lino floor with tile and using an uncoupling membrane and modified thinset underneath. Most of the on line stuff I`ve read and the manufacturer`s instructions say best is to remove the old lino. That part isn`t too bad but does the old glue need to come off too? Getting it off is proving to be a chore.


I agree that the lino needs to go, but the glue is thin and shouldn't be causing you any trouble.

The thinset basically sits on whatever you put it on, and it should have sufficient bite. It won't bite on the lino.

Are you using the orange stuff (can't remember the name off hand...old timers again) for your membrane?

Check the expiry date on the thinset - yes it does have one. And it isn't very long. If you don't have a tile saw, I can lend you one if you like.

What kind of tile are you using and how big?


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

It`s not the Ditra, it`s a similar product called Strata Mat by Laticrete out of Connecticut. White instead of orange. I have a tile saw, so much easier than scoring and snapping. The tiles are 13 inch square ceramic.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

I agree about not worrying about the glue. I would however _highly recommend_ stapling down expanded metal lath! It turns thinset into reinforced concrete. Renailing/screwing down the existing flooring is absolutely essential prior to putting anything else down.
The expanded metal lath is available from either the tile wholesale or stucco supplier.

Ditra vs Heavy gauge metal lathe (the real facts) - Ceramic Tile Advice Forums - John Bridge Ceramic Tile


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## cocobolo1 (Dec 31, 2015)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> It`s not the Ditra, it`s a similar product called Strata Mat by Laticrete out of Connecticut. White instead of orange. I have a tile saw, so much easier than scoring and snapping. The tiles are 13 inch square ceramic.


OK then, glad you have the tile saw. That way you won't have to wait months for me to get down your way!

Ceramic is dead easy to cut, whereas porcelain is another thing entirely.

Ditra was the name I couldn't remember...thanks.


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## cocobolo1 (Dec 31, 2015)

DaninVan said:


> I agree about not worrying about the glue. I would however _highly recommend_ stapling down expanded metal lath! It turns thinset into reinforced concrete. Renailing/screwing down the existing flooring is absolutely essential prior to putting anything else down.
> The expanded metal lath is available from either the tile wholesale or stucco supplier.
> 
> Ditra vs Heavy gauge metal lathe (the real facts) - Ceramic Tile Advice Forums - John Bridge Ceramic Tile


Dan, the lath isn't 100% perfect, but then very little is. What we don't know is what Chuck's substrate is made out of. 

Could be plywood over framing, could be concrete, could be thin air for all I know. No, on second thought that's not too likely.

I note on the Tile Guys post that the failures mentioned were outside. 

I tiled an outside deck on my place at Ruxton and used a thin lightweight board underneath it. At the time of my departure all was still good, and it had been down for several years. The deck in question was indeed outside, but the roof overhead offered reasonable protection.

I should see if I can find a pic...yet another one to look for. 

I used the same board behind my tile in the shower as well. It was meant for damp locations.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Substrate is OSB T&G. The uncoupling membrane is supposed to take the place of the tile backing board and that`s from either Ditra or Laticrete. The first thinset is a modified flexible type so that if there is slight movement the tiles don`t crack. The metal lath sounds too rigid for this application. I probably will drive a few screws in the old floor but I also glued it down with PL400 when I built it 30 or so years ago. It`s pretty solid. Instead of crossblocking I solid blocked all the cross joints so that isn`t an issue either.


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## cocobolo1 (Dec 31, 2015)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> Substrate is OSB T&G. The uncoupling membrane is supposed to take the place of the tile backing board and that`s from either Ditra or Laticrete. The first thinset is a modified flexible type so that if there is slight movement the tiles don`t crack. The metal lath sounds too rigid for this application. I probably will drive a few screws in the old floor but I also glued it down with PL400 when I built it 30 or so years ago. It`s pretty solid. Instead of crossblocking I solid blocked all the cross joints so that isn`t an issue either.


If the OSB is still in good shape after 30 years, then you aren't going to have a problem, especially since you glued it down. Good luck with the tiling.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Don't say I didn't warn you... 
_Any_ flexing will allow the grout to crack and fall apart. A tiler would be telling you that unless you put down another layer of 3/4" ply they won't warranty their work. Personally I think 3/4" is overkill, but you _have_ to stiffen the floor substrate. OSB ain't gonna fly. Don't take my word for it; talk to the tile wholesale.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

http://www.chembond.com/english/tds/substraterequirementst_e.pdf
Section D specifically


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## Knothead47 (Feb 10, 2010)

Definitely go with a tile saw. I tried one of the score-and-break type and it was a waste. Took it back to Lowe's and got a small wet/dry saw. Love it!. Plus I got one of the mixers that you put on a drill to mix the grout. Much easier than mixing by hand. Clean it real good and you can use it to make real large cakes.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

XXlarge SS mixing bowl (Sam's - real cheap) and an electric cake mixer....
make life real easy and clean up easier...
no lumps either...


.







*+*


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

Charles...check a product WELDCRETE as a bonding agent to help minimize the effects of the glue. As for the floor, if there is any bounce at all 13" tiles will offer no strength at all and the grout will crack...especially if you will be rolling heavy stuff on it later...

The thinset has to bond to the substrate...WELDCRETE...you paint it on ahead of time, goes down blue, dries clear...great stuff...

Backing board is a good idea...


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## Shop guy (Nov 22, 2012)

We have tile in our kitchen and breakfast area. We are the second owners of the house. The builder didn't do a great job installing the tile and the grout cracks occasionally. If I was to replace it it would be hardwood flooring. Lots better in my opinion.


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## mgmine (Jan 16, 2012)

Dan is 100% correct. You need to put another layer of 3/4 plywood on top of the osb. If you don't the gout will crack and so will the tile.


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## cocobolo1 (Dec 31, 2015)

DaninVan said:


> Don't say I didn't warn you...
> _Any_ flexing will allow the grout to crack and fall apart. A tiler would be telling you that unless you put down another layer of 3/4" ply they won't warranty their work. Personally I think 3/4" is overkill, but you _have_ to stiffen the floor substrate. OSB ain't gonna fly. Don't take my word for it; talk to the tile wholesale.


Not necessarily true. It all depends on how the floor was built in the first place. 

If you have 2 x 6 joists on 24" centres, then you're begging for trouble. Of course, you shouldn't have anything that ridiculous. Or, you might have 2 x 12's on 12" centres. Yes, I know that's uncommon, but it does exist.

More likely, it's 2 x 8 or 2 x 10 on 16's.

Now the next catch is how far apart are the support beams underneath?

What you are looking for is a floor that doesn't flex. There is actually some flex to thinset which aids in the longevity of tile installations. And there is always some flex with a framed floor.

I had the luxury at my Ruxton house of not having to exceed 7', yes seven, for my support posts beneath my beam structure. That is one stiff floor.

Most of the main level floor was done in terra cotta tiles. If you aren't that familiar with them, I'm here to tell you that those things are weak. Even though they are anywhere from 7/16" to 11/16" thick, they are weak.

It's the nature of the beast with such tiles. Chuck isn't using those, so he has far less to be concerned about. He's using ceramic. My choice would have been porcelain, which are stronger, but they are a bugger to cut.

I didn't do this install without a huge amount of advice from one Bud Cline, the most experienced tile setter it has been my pleasure to run into. He's a gold mine of information and helped me immensely. He'll probably kill me for saying this if he sees this post...but he was being groomed to become the president of the American Tile Association several years ago, that's how knowledgeable he is.

More importantly, is the way you actually set the tile itself.

When you set the tile, after having applied thinset over the area, make sure that the back of the tile is very substantially covered with thinset. Do this by setting the tile, then lift it off and look at the back of the tile. You might be surprised by what you see. This will encourage you to use enough thinset so that your tile is properly covered. Nine times out of ten, an inexperienced setter will have nowhere near enough contact between the back of the tile and the thinset. All you will see is a few lines of thinset with much of the back of the tile remaining untouched. Not good.


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## cocobolo1 (Dec 31, 2015)

Shop guy said:


> We have tile in our kitchen and breakfast area. We are the second owners of the house. The builder didn't do a great job installing the tile and the grout cracks occasionally. If I was to replace it it would be hardwood flooring. Lots better in my opinion.


Those are high traffic areas. Exactly the places which need extra attention to detail. Grout does crack from time to time, and that can be fixed. I would be interested to hear how wide your grout lines are. And do you know if you have sanded or unsanded grout?


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

cocobolo1 said:


> More importantly, is the way you actually set the tile itself.
> 
> When you set the tile, after having applied thinset over the area, make sure that the back of the tile is very substantially covered with thinset. Do this by setting the tile, then lift it off and look at the back of the tile. You might be surprised by what you see. This will encourage you to use enough thinset so that your tile is properly covered. Nine times out of ten, an inexperienced setter will have nowhere near enough contact between the back of the tile and the thinset. All you will see is a few lines of thinset with much of the back of the tile remaining untouched. Not good.


Man, ain't that the truth!!


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## cocobolo1 (Dec 31, 2015)

TwoSkies57 said:


> Man, ain't that the truth!!


Sure is. My friend Bud claims that to be the main cause of cracked tiles and grout.


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

just take and tap on a new tile install......you can pick out the ones that "will" crack and the ones that wont..


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## cocobolo1 (Dec 31, 2015)

TwoSkies57 said:


> just take and tap on a new tile install......you can pick out the ones that "will" crack and the ones that wont..


That's for sure...they sound hollow...lack of thinset.


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

cocobolo1 said:


> That's for sure...they sound hollow...lack of thinset.


exactly!


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

DaninVan said:


> Don't say I didn't warn you...
> _Any_ flexing will allow the grout to crack and fall apart. A tiler would be telling you that unless you put down another layer of 3/4" ply they won't warranty their work. Personally I think 3/4" is overkill, but you _have_ to stiffen the floor substrate. OSB ain't gonna fly. Don't take my word for it; talk to the tile wholesale.


They are the ones that said it would work, plus Ditra, plus Laticrete. If I put down another subfloor I would have to lift my cabinets which means tearing up the backsplash, changing the plumbing, and possibly getting the gas line to the cooktop redone. That`s too big a job. I`m going to have to trust Ditra and Laticrete on this Dan.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

cocobolo1 said:


> Not necessarily true. It all depends on how the floor was built in the first place.
> 
> If you have 2 x 6 joists on 24" centres, then you're begging for trouble. Of course, you shouldn't have anything that ridiculous. Or, you might have 2 x 12's on 12" centres. Yes, I know that's uncommon, but it does exist.
> 
> ...



Full thickness and width, rough sawn 2 x 10 D fir that I logged and had a neighbor saw. Select or better. Fairly short span starting on one bearing wall with another bearing wall at 6`and terminating at the outside wall in another 4ft. Glued and blocked. It doesn`t move very much.


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## cocobolo1 (Dec 31, 2015)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> Full thickness and width, rough sawn 2 x 10 D fir that I logged and had a neighbor saw. Select or better. Fairly short span starting on one bearing wall with another bearing wall at 6`and terminating at the outside wall in another 4ft. Glued and blocked. It doesn`t move very much.


I have faith in you Chuck. That sucker isn't going anywhere. And have you ever noticed that the older D fir gets, the harder it becomes? Wow, just like iron.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

I tried to salvage some 100 yr old clears in a set a stairs once and wound up with kindling. The nails just wouldn`t let go. When it gets to that state you have to pre-drill nail holes.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

*A Tile Layed is a TIle Played*



Cherryville Chuck said:


> They are the ones that said it would work, plus Ditra, plus Laticrete. If I put down another subfloor I would have to lift my cabinets which means tearing up the backsplash, changing the plumbing, and possibly getting the gas line to the cooktop redone. That`s too big a job. I`m going to have to trust Ditra and Laticrete on this Dan.


EXACTLY why I recommend laying expanded metal lath...virtually no increase in the finished floor level and superb improvement in flex resistance.
Our whole main floor was done this way. Expanded Metal lath over the existing 5/8" D.Fir t&g plywood subfloor. I re-screwed the whole floor before laying down the lath. All the hammer tacker does is keep the metal lath down tight so it doesn't poke up through the thinset while you're trying to lay the tile
We didn't use anti-fracture membrane, and although we _didn't_ pre-treat the plywood sub-floor with acrylic additive, I agree that it's a good idea. Having said that, you're probably using a heavy sanded *Modified Thinset* which already has Acrylic in it, or using Acrylic additive for mixing(?).
If you're putting down an anti-fracture membrane, than pre-treating the subfloor with Acrylic is pointless as _neither the tile or thinset will come into contact with it_.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

I bought the two mortars that are recommended by Ditra. I`m pretty sure the one that goes under is already modified that way. The more rigid one goes on top and under the tile. Laticrete`s instructions are very similar. I got the Strata Mat in Grande Prairie as I was headed back home (no sales tax that way) from work but I didn`t have room or want to pack the mortar back from there so I bought it at the big orange in Vernon and they handle the Ditra. Laticrete warranties it if put down according to their instructions which is the method I outlined but I couldn`t find anything about whether I needed to strip the old glue off the floor which was my main quandary. I wasn`t sure if the thinset would bond to it properly. BTW, this is the thin membrane I`m using so it wouldn`t be much different that the mesh in thickness.


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## Knothead47 (Feb 10, 2010)

We put down ceramic tile in our foyer. Peeled up the lino, hit the glue/backing with a heat gun and scraped it off. We put the mortar directly on the plywood. Anything more and the door wouldn't open. We peeled up the carpet in the den downstairs and put the ceramic tile directly on the concrete. I did have to take a drill and an abrasive wheel to clean up the glue and the padding of the indoor/outdoor carpet. Good luck on the project!


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Sounds like you've done your 'due diligence', Charles, so party on!


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## cocobolo1 (Dec 31, 2015)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> I tried to salvage some 100 yr old clears in a set a stairs once and wound up with kindling. The nails just wouldn`t let go. When it gets to that state you have to pre-drill nail holes.


Chuck, I don't know if you were around at the time, but do you recall back in about 1980 - give or take - they took apart several of the original old docks in Vancouver harbour. They had what must have been thousands of 10 x 10's, mostly about 12' long. Sold them off at $10 a pop. Every one old growth D fir and many dead clear. I got a truckload which I used for many projects.

They were too heavy to run through the planer, so I used a power plane to clean them up. Barely had to take off 1/16" to see the good wood underneath the dirt. Of course, I had to pressure wash them first.

As you say, a fight to drive a nail, so pre-drilling it was.


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## cocobolo1 (Dec 31, 2015)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> Full thickness and width, rough sawn 2 x 10 D fir that I logged and had a neighbor saw. Select or better. Fairly short span starting on one bearing wall with another bearing wall at 6`and terminating at the outside wall in another 4ft. Glued and blocked. It doesn`t move very much.


Purely for the sake of interest, I just worked out the volume of your 2 x 10's as compared to a current day 2 x 12. You win by 19%. No worries there.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

When the building inspector came for a look I said to him that although they weren`t legally graded they were full size and of a grade that is very hard to buy (one of the perks of being a logger is picking out the best logs for yourself). His comment was `They look substantial enough to me`.


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