# Advice Making Casement Windows



## Gaia (Feb 20, 2010)

Hi,
If you look at my profile you can see the range of power tools I have.

I've been looking into this for a while. I'm intending to make my own replacement windows.Casement with flush fitting sashes ( flush fitting like in photo B ) with a top and side opener, also another window style with just one fixed sash and top opener as on the right hand side of the front of the house. 

This is how I've been thinking, I'm proposing to rebate all around the window frame, the opening sashes will flush close into the rebates. I'm trying to explain how I've been thinking about doing things. bare in mind please. I'm not sure if I'm using the right window nomenclature, scantlings, window sash, frame side jamb etc.

I'm Intending to make the same style but in hardwood as in picture titled ( Window Style )
In a wooden design a center mullion from top to bottom in the middle would be required, mortise and tenon jointing again?

This house front is one of the next pair of semis to my own semi. Has exact same front brickwork opening. I enlarged the photo and printed it out then to scale it up used a plastic ruler like 10mm = 4cm whatever. Did this so could go to glazing people and find out rough cost of glazed units.

The static non opening window ( light ) in the frame will have a shallower rebate as no sash will be fitted into it, just the glazing unit with molding pinned over to hold in position. ( as in photo E ) In the past I've gone into the correct way of bedding glazed units into wood sashes so that they don't fail.

The sashes I propose making, from what I know, are relatively straightforward and plain, nothing fancy, that requires special tooling. My sash design consists of rebated rails and stiles, mortise and tenoned to each other. with molding strips pinned in place to hold the glazing units in position in the rebate. A haunched tenon and mortise might be more stable but my power tool skill set isn't up to that I think. The window frame the side jambs are tenoned into the head jamb and bottom cill, window board. I have information on using battens tacked to the frame to ensure is completely square when gluing and clamping up.

One of the things I find perplexing, running a rebate all along down the complete edge of a board is straightforward. 

On the sash stile though, the rebate doesn't run the whole length, it stops short where the top rail joints into the stile with the tenon, into the stile mortise. I can't work out how this can be done, drill a hole or something to depth of rebate then use a router cutter to make rebate then square up end point with a chisel?

I intend to use, as will be outdoors, air dried French Oak which will be already acclimatized to being outside. French Oak available at I think a good price here, Ebay UK item number 320991213120 not all sizes seem to be available. 

Rip it on the table-saw to within couple of mm then get it exact on the thicknesser. I also have a planing jig that I can use on the Dewalt thickesser. If that doesn't produce satisfactory results, I have a friend who has a 10 inch planer who would plain any timber I need done.

Also if use a tenon like in picture titled Tenon photo, if I run a rebate along the rail edge won't it interfere with the tenon shape, cheek and perhaps strength? I assume the depth of the window frame side jamb should be enough, wide enough to sit on and cover, the inside and outer course of bricks in the external wall. That said I don't understand how to work out how wide I should have the frame jambs same with the dimensions of sash stiles and rails. 

Is quite a gig stumbling block for me to work out the relative dimensions of the various window components. How wide should the frame jambs be, how wide should the sash stile and rails be all in relation to each other.

Once I understand the relative sizes of the various window components. I can then get an idea of what the timber would cost me.
I might be required by building regulations to router in slots in the head jamb for air trickle vents.

The glazed units can have a depth of 22mm.The original windows I'm replacing had no cill just a frame, mine won't be made with a cill but interior window board.
The frame jambs are tenoned into mortises in the top jamb and window cill, window board.I have trade quality Dewalt Thickness/ planer and other stuff.
Any guidance you could me would be very much appreciated,
Peter.


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## gmercer_48083 (Jul 18, 2012)

Gaia, I made window frames using this basic shape . All cuts were made on my table saw. My dimensions were different but the type of cuts were the same. It worked out great!


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Peter; you've probably already done your research on hardware, so hopefully you've decided WHITCO is your best bet for hinging...
http://www.whitco.com.au/Local/AU/Documents/Catalogues/Whitco/Whitco Window Stays Brochure.pdf
As long as you give them a bit of a cleaning every few years, and a drop of lubricant on the rivets, they'll outlast you.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Peter in days gone by workers were expected to be craftsmen of their trade. Nowadays they are expected to show up and run a machine that takes care of the craftsmanship for them. I wouldn't expect that a factory these days would have someone chisel out corners to complete a rebate. In cabinet doors the profiles go to the ends of the stiles and the matching reverse profile gets cut into the ends of the rails so I would say that this is the most likely possibility but it could affect the tenons if the rebate is wide enough.


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## Gaia (Feb 20, 2010)

DaninVan said:


> Peter; you've probably already done your research on hardware, so hopefully you've decided WHITCO is your best bet for hinging...
> http://www.whitco.com.au/Local/AU/Documents/Catalogues/Whitco/Whitco Window Stays Brochure.pdf
> As long as you give them a bit of a cleaning every few years, and a drop of lubricant on the rivets, they'll outlast you.


Thanks, I've looked into hardware.


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## Gaia (Feb 20, 2010)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> Peter in days gone by workers were expected to be craftsmen of their trade. Nowadays they are expected to show up and run a machine that takes care of the craftsmanship for them. I wouldn't expect that a factory these days would have someone chisel out corners to complete a rebate. In cabinet doors the profiles go to the ends of the stiles and the matching reverse profile gets cut into the ends of the rails so I would say that this is the most likely possibility but it could affect the tenons if the rebate is wide enough.


Hi Charles and thanks,
" In cabinet doors the profiles go to the ends of the stiles and the matching reverse profile gets cut into the ends of the rails " 
I'm not using stick and cope joinery, just making rebates.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Peter the best person to ask would probably be Phil P. I haven't seen him post in quite a while, probably because he is busy, but he might answer a PM. He may have built windows like those before. Router Forums - Members List


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

*Stopped rebate*

Peter; what Charles is saying is that you can run all the rebates on the TS...long pieces of stock if you like. Then do your tenoning based on the rail allowance for the rebate already precut. Does that make sense?
I just did a quick sketch to illustrate why the rebate is 'stopped', when you remove the rest of the material on the mating piece to the full height of the frame members.
No attempt to show any joinery...just the rebates:
(please pardon my crappy draughting!)


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## TRN_Diesel (Feb 24, 2009)

Peter the other option is to build the frame with the opening using mortise and tennon joinery. If you do not feel comfortable making this joint the other option is to make a floating tenon. 

To make a floating tenon you can make a jig or set up your router table to make the mortises and then cut some tenons to match. 

From the pictures shown you can build this in simple sections and then to make the rebate may I suggest a rabbeting bit in a hand router. Once the frame is built and is square you can run a rabbeting bit on the inside to fit the glass. Once the rabbet is cut measure the opening and cut the glass to fit and then corresponding trim to secure the glass in place.

If you use Google Sketch up send me the measurements of the frame and the glass. I will draw this is Sketchup to help show you how to do it.


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## Gaia (Feb 20, 2010)

DaninVan said:


> Peter; what Charles is saying is that you can run all the rebates on the TS...long pieces of stock if you like. Then do your tenoning based on the rail allowance for the rebate already precut. Does that make sense?
> I just did a quick sketch to illustrate why the rebate is 'stopped', when you remove the rest of the material on the mating piece to the full height of the frame members.
> No attempt to show any joinery...just the rebates:
> (please pardon my crappy draughting!)


I think I understand what you are saying? Run the the rebate down the complete length of the sash stile then cut the tenon? I'm afraid can't make much sense of your drawing. Can you try to explain in a different way what you are trying to convey?
Thanks.


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## Gaia (Feb 20, 2010)

TRN_Diesel said:


> Peter the other option is to build the frame with the opening using mortise and tennon joinery. If you do not feel comfortable making this joint the other option is to make a floating tenon.
> 
> To make a floating tenon you can make a jig or set up your router table to make the mortises and then cut some tenons to match.
> 
> ...


OK thanks for that, though if I build the main window frame and sash frame. I didn't think a router bit could rabbet right along corner to corner in one go into the assembled frames? If it can cut the rabbets full length corner to corner, after assembling the frames. In my mind, that would go quite some way to solving the dilemma.
I don't have Sketch Up, you could do it on Sketch Up and post a screen shot ( capture )
Cheers.


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## Gaia (Feb 20, 2010)

I've had a thing in my head about using Oak, even more so as I can get this air dried French Oak relatively cheaply on Ebay. Even making an allowance of 20% for waste.

That said I think I will go back to using a suitable slow growing softwood. The best bet I think would be Canadian Douglas Fir and is available here at affordable prices, will need to look into if available air dried. 

Looking at the photo B. I posted of the complete frame and side and top opening sash. I used this photo as it was to hand an example to illustrate what I meant by flush fitting casement sash. 

In retrospect I see I made a mistake, the side jambs of the frame shouldn't extend to the depth between the inner and outer bricks of the exterior wall. House walls built like this in the UK. A brick is 11cm wide with a gap of about 6 cm then another brick making a total depth of around 28cm. 

So common sense tells me the jambs should only be the same depth as a single brick 11cm. Frame secured into wall with silicone mastic. Or perhaps the jambs screwed into the wall, if is straightforward to cosmeticise ( is there such a word  ) the countersunk holes for the screws and suitably filled in so not noticeable?

My original windows at the front don't have cills though the ones on the ground floor and first floor do. In the picture the head frame jamb and cill ends extend wider than the actual frame. I think this might be for one of two reasons. Sometimes the ends are extended to fit into a corresponding slot cut into the brickwork. Or like a new door has ears,dogs at the top and bottom to protect the door before is hung, they are cut off before doing so. My windows will be fitted into my walls like these are in photo titled Fitting Of Window In Wall 1.
Will post some other new thoughts later to see what people think.
Thanks a lot guys,
Peter.


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## Gaia (Feb 20, 2010)

TRN_Diesel said:


> Peter the other option is to build the frame with the opening using mortise and tennon joinery. If you do not feel comfortable making this joint the other option is to make a floating tenon.
> 
> To make a floating tenon you can make a jig or set up your router table to make the mortises and then cut some tenons to match.
> 
> ...


Hi again Dan,
In my original post, " On the sash stile though, the rebate doesn't run the whole length, it stops short where the top rail joints into the stile with the tenon, into the stile mortise. I can't work out how this can be done, drill a hole or something to depth of rebate then use a router cutter to make rebate then square up end point with a chisel? Perhaps that's such an obvious thing there was no need for you to mention that, self apparent. As shown in the attached photo. How I'm intending to do the frame mortises and the others,I'm intending to use my drill press to drill a starter hole down to the depth of the mortise, then use my plunge router to take out the mortise and square up the ends with a chisel. I assume to start the rebates off in the frame and sash I would drill a hole down to the depth of the rebate then plunge rout, or cut in from the side edge? Even though I've got some good quality woodworking kit. ( I did my research and saved up my money and bought items as and when I could afford to buy them, new. ) though I have got some good woodworking equipment. I'm still very much a newbie, are there then , any actual router cutters available That I wasn't aware of that can take the rabate corners out?
Cheers,
Peter.


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## Gaia (Feb 20, 2010)

gmercer_48083 said:


> Gaia, I made window frames using this basic shape . All cuts were made on my table saw. My dimensions were different but the type of cuts were the same. It worked out great!


OK cheers.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Gaia said:


> I'm still very much a newbie, are there then , any actual router cutters available That I wasn't aware of that can take the rabate corners out?
> Cheers,
> Peter.


Peter, round cutters leave round corners. The radius at the corner will equal the radius of the bit. No way around that fact. I can tell that you want to follow the architecture of the original frame but is there a way to redesign it to make the machine work simpler?


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## Gaia (Feb 20, 2010)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> Peter, round cutters leave round corners. The radius at the corner will equal the radius of the bit. No way around that fact. I can tell that you want to follow the architecture of the original frame but is there a way to redesign it to make the machine work simpler?


Hello again my friend 
I think I can handle the chisel taking out the corners, I sent a PM to Phil P. Go on I'm all ears.


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> Peter the best person to ask would probably be Phil P. I haven't seen him post in quite a while, probably because he is busy, but he might answer a PM. He may have built windows like those before. Router Forums - Members List


Phil originally got his feelings hurt here with a Brit-bash comment by someone... I had him just about talked into coming back, when he disappeared off the face of the earth, literally!!!

I hold Phil in high regard and we were very close friends. We had a lot in common professionally and how we were brought up through the trades. We would talk on Skype for hours on end. I was thinking of paying for him and his wife to viisit here, while he had been out of work... Then he got two jobs at once... then poof.

Even I haven't heard anything from him in over a year... Even from Skype or my many un-answered emails that I've sent him since. I am still worried about him and miss our talks. I hope he is okay! We also used to trade old, circa 1900 carpentry and joinery books. We both had quite a few of them in pdf format.

I have one in mind for Peter that would help him out in what he's looking for. Much too large in size to post here, so I sent Peter a PM with my emial addy, so he can send his... so I can send as an email attachment.

Mike


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

I hope that it is just that he is too busy to respond as well Mike. I didn't know about the anti Brit comment. As the saying goes "it only takes one idiot sometimes". I emailed him a few times. He is a wealth of knowledge and experience and usually the best person to ask about methods and customs that are UK based. I hope he is well.


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## Gaia (Feb 20, 2010)

MAFoElffen said:


> Phil originally got his feelings hurt here with a Brit-bash comment by someone... I had him just about talked into coming back, when he disappeared off the face of the earth, literally!!!
> 
> I hold Phil in high regard and we were very close friends. We had a lot in common professionally and how we were brought up through the trades. We would talk on Skype for hours on end. I was thinking of paying for him and his wife to viisit here, while he had been out of work... Then he got two jobs at once... then poof.
> 
> ...


Hi Mike thanks, didn't receive the PM so I'm sending you one, with my email address. I have some old joinery, building books that cover door making and window making. Though they don't cover the way I'm making my replacement windows. Compared to the designs and jointing show in the books, mine are relatively straightforward.
Cheers.


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## gmercer_48083 (Jul 18, 2012)

Peter, This is how I made mine. All cuts were made on the table saw. You will have to decide the sizes of material (thickness, lengths and size of rebate for the glass). I used bridle tenons on frames 30" tall x 30" wide. I used Pine and it was very strong. The tenons were glued with titebond III. I made the bottom rail 2-1/2 tall and the top and side pieces 1-3/4" and 1/2" rebates for the glass (single pane). the thickness of all the frames were 1-1/2".


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## Gaia (Feb 20, 2010)

gmercer_48083 said:


> Peter, This is how I made mine. All cuts were made on the table saw. You will have to decide the sizes of material (thickness, lengths and size of rebate for the glass). I used bridle tenons on frames 30" tall x 30" wide. I used Pine and it was very strong. The tenons were glued with titebond III. I made the bottom rail 2-1/2 tall and the top and side pieces 1-3/4" and 1/2" rebates for the glass (single pane). the thickness of all the frames were 1-1/2".


OK thanks.


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## Gaia (Feb 20, 2010)

MAFoElffen said:


> Phil originally got his feelings hurt here with a Brit-bash comment by someone... I had him just about talked into coming back, when he disappeared off the face of the earth, literally!!!
> 
> I hold Phil in high regard and we were very close friends. We had a lot in common professionally and how we were brought up through the trades. We would talk on Skype for hours on end. I was thinking of paying for him and his wife to viisit here, while he had been out of work... Then he got two jobs at once... then poof.
> 
> ...


Hi again Mike I didn't get your PM, I sent you a PM with my email address, no response. Did it not come through?
Thanks.


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Gaia said:


> Hi again Mike I didn't get your PM, I sent you a PM with my email address, no response. Did it not come through?
> Thanks.


I also sent to Dan and Charles. Through them, they did not send. I nixed one of the attachments, so now is just one and resent,...

Maybe too large to send 2 large files as an attachment? So look this morning and see if it sent to you as one single smaller.attachment?

Mike.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Mine came through OK, Mike. Great book!!
I'm just trying to figure out how to get my desktop computer out to the shop...
Oh wait! See the thread 'I Wants'. Seems like a perfectly good reason to buy a laptop.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

I got mine too this try. Original must have been too large.What I've seen so far is great stuff. I got a disc off ebay with 101 old woodworking books on it. However, I haven't seen it since we moved back to BC from Alberta. It'll turn up eventually. When it does I'll see what's worth sharing. I got it from a company in Vancouver who must have taken the time to copy it all.


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## Gaia (Feb 20, 2010)

MAFoElffen said:


> I also sent to Dan and Charles. Through them, they did not send. I nixed one of the attachments, so now is just one and resent,...
> 
> Maybe too large to send 2 large files as an attachment? So look this morning and see if it sent to you as one single smaller.attachment?
> 
> Mike.


Sorry still no sign of it.


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Gaia said:


> Sorry still no sign of it.


I sent it to a few others and "some" of them got it, but even to those few, it was delayed some how. I think some never received it at all.

I'm thinking it has to do with the size of the PDF files and how some email services limit the size of attachments. Maybe someone that recieved those from me could try sending to you(?)
- Mike


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## Gaia (Feb 20, 2010)

MAFoElffen said:


> I sent it to a few others and "some" of them got it, but even to those few, it was delayed some how. I think some never received it at all.
> 
> I'm thinking it has to do with the size of the PDF files and how some email services limit the size of attachments. Maybe someone that recieved those from me could try sending to you(?)
> - Mike


Hi thanks,
What was the title of the book you were trying to send me?


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Gaia said:


> Hi thanks,
> What was the title of the book you were trying to send me?


I have them on my hard disk, but originally I found them online and downloaded them... Since I had problems sending them via email (and too large to upload here), I tracked down the links for them again. The titles and links for them (below).

"A Manual of Carpentry and Joinery"... which is in the Internet Archives at:
https://archive.org/details/amanualcarpentr01rilegoog

The other was "Modern Carpentry and Joinery, Volume II", Both are a two volume set, by the same author, Frederick Thomas Hodgson. The second book is in the internet Archives at:
https://archive.org/details/moderncarpentry00hodggoog

Both have links to download in whatever formats you want. 

PhilP and I spent time looking for out of print Carpentry, Joinery and Furniture manuals... And we would trade them (via email or via links to them) between each other. We found quite a few in that Internet Archive, Others on Google Books. Other we scanned for each other (if small). One I have a hard copy of Hodgson's, that someone gave me when I was an apprentice. That is "Builder's Architectural Drawings"... but I found that is scanned online also:
https://archive.org/details/buildersarchitec00hodg


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## Gaia (Feb 20, 2010)

MAFoElffen said:


> I have them on my hard disk, but originally I found them online and downloaded them... Since I had problems sending them via email (and too large to upload here), I tracked down the links for them again. The titles and links for them (below).
> 
> "A Manual of Carpentry and Joinery"... which is in the Internet Archives at:
> https://archive.org/details/amanualcarpentr01rilegoog
> ...


I've had a look at both of them, some interesting stuff there.
Many thanks.


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Gaia said:


> I've had a look at both of them, some interesting stuff there.
> Many thanks.


Look in the indexes... As I remember, what you are looking for is in the second half of each of the first two manuals... and about halfway back of the third.

These three books would also be of interest to Esko... who restores vintage window frames and casings.


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