# template guides



## levon (Sep 14, 2008)

i as a totally inexperienced person, just got my template guide set. my question is, to make a piece from a pattern where the workpiece and the pattern are the same size, dont i still need to use a flush tim bit with a brearing?


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## dovetail_65 (Jan 22, 2008)

If the finished work piece and the template are to be the same size that's correct.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi levon

Yes and no ,,, the easy way is just use the same guide,,,,once you have the pattern you have the pattern,, just pop the same guide in the router table and cut as many as you want the same size or you can use a bigger guide and make them smaller/bigger  that's just one of the neat things about the guides.. 


Do it all with just one bit 


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levon said:


> i as a totally inexperienced person, just got my template guide set. my question is, to make a piece from a pattern where the workpiece and the pattern are the same size, dont i still need to use a flush tim bit with a brearing?


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## levon (Sep 14, 2008)

i sure enjoy it when i can get on the forum and ask questions and get answeres without feeling totally ignorant. thanks for all the help.


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## GrummanTiger (Jan 3, 2009)

How does one go about getting different patterns????


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## dovetail_65 (Jan 22, 2008)

You lost me there Bob.

If he has a template in hand and wants the finish piece to be the same size he needs to use a bearing bit, doesn't he?


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## levon (Sep 14, 2008)

Nick, i may be wrong, but as i understood bobj, for the same size pattern and workpiece use a bearing bit and for different sized patterns and workpieces use a template guide. i may be wrong.


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## dovetail_65 (Jan 22, 2008)

Got it.


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## levon (Sep 14, 2008)

Grumman Tiger,
i think we can make a lot of templates, but have to calculate making them smaller or bigger to use the templates guides. but i think to find templates, there are a lot of members that can enlighten you on finding these.


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## levon (Sep 14, 2008)

ps, do you fly an airplane?


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

HI levon

see below

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levon said:


> Nick, i may be wrong, but as i understood bobj, for the same size pattern and workpiece use a bearing bit and for different sized patterns and workpieces use a template guide. i may be wrong.


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## GrummanTiger (Jan 3, 2009)

My wife does actually. Her last plane was a Grumman Tiger. Now she has a Piper Warrior. Don't know why, but the Grandkids started calling me Grumman..and it stuck.. <grin>


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## levon (Sep 14, 2008)

bobj, i see the simplicity of using the og/roundover bit to make and finish the workpiece. that is a smart idea. i guess what im not understanding and know its because im inexperienced , is why the guide is better for just a straight cut to make a workpiece.


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## levon (Sep 14, 2008)

Grumman 

we love anything the grandkids call us, within boundaries. lol i know i do.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

HI levon

well you are not making a inlay part the norm where the edges need to be square most of the time you making a pattern of a item that has a round over or some other type of edge  it's just a lot quicker to do it all with one bit.

You can use just about any type of bit with the guide, trim bits are great but the pattern must be on the top the norm in the router table and it hard to use them in the hand router if the pattern is on the bottom it can be done but it's so easy to do on the router table..

Now I'm going to get some flack from Harry/Tom I'm sure 

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levon said:


> bobj, i see the simplicity of using the og/roundover bit to make and finish the workpiece. that is a smart idea. i guess what im not understanding and know its because im inexperienced , is why the guide is better for just a straight cut to make a workpiece.


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## levon (Sep 14, 2008)

sorry bobj, if i get you in trouble with Harry or Tom. i think as time goes by and i learn more and more this information will sink in more and more. at least thats my story,lol.


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## dovetail_65 (Jan 22, 2008)

I am going to only say about the template guide vs pattern bit vs hand held vs table thing is this:

If it works you did it right.

If does not work you did it wrong.

I don't believe any technique is better than the other until the specific operation is identified. Even then people all have different comfort levels as how to do something.

Being safe is the important thing.


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## levon (Sep 14, 2008)

Nick, no matter how good or bad i am, i do wish to remain safe. good post.


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## reuelt (Dec 29, 2008)

*Just IMHO*

"Guide Bushing + hand held routing" have its application. 
e.g. If I am installing Kitchen Bench onsite, I would use a Benchtop template + 30mm guide bushing to cut & join Bench tops. I can't use a router table then.

For making items in the workshop, I prefer the use of the router table.
The table fence allows better fine adjustments - not as easy with the hand held routing.
Profile bits with small bearings at the end allows curves to be followed more acurrately than guide bushings.

Guide bushings can be also be used on the table but template at the bottom is not so convienient. In that situation, a overhead mounted (inverted) pin will be better.

When using guide bushings, the established rule is to keep the distance between the cutting edge and the lip edge of the bushing 2 to 3mm.
This is why I cannot disagee with some promoting the use of "40mm guide bushing" for all bit sizes.


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## dovetail_65 (Jan 22, 2008)

You do not have to have the bearing at the bottom on a table though. You can easily use the table with the template(bearing) on top.

Many are using the bits with the bearing on top and bottom so you can flip the piece if the grain direction changes on you, by just adjusting the router bit height.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

"When using guide bushings, the established rule is to keep the distance between the cutting edge and the lip edge of the bushing 2 to 3mm.
This is why I cannot disagee with some promoting the use of "40mm guide bushing" for all bit sizes."

I'm not sure where this came from, the advantages of using a 40mm guide or any other large guide metric or Imperial one are, it's possible to SEE the cutter, routed material does not compact within the guide to cause excessive heat, the chuck can protrude through the guide for extra depth of cut and there are heaps more cutters available that can be used.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Guys

What do they say a picture is worth a 1000 words...


=========


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Credit where credit is due, if all 20,581 members were to vote for the forums best jig maker, I doubt that there would be a single one who didn't vote for Bj.

Bob, you are THE master jig maker, you have ideas, skill and lots of patience, plus a bloody good memory!


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Thank You Harry 


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harrysin said:


> Credit where credit is due, if all 20,581 members were to vote for the forums best jig maker, I doubt that there would be a single one who didn't vote for Bj.
> 
> Bob, you are THE master jig maker, you have ideas, skill and lots of patience, plus a bloody good memory!


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## reuelt (Dec 29, 2008)

*In Printed Books*



harrysin said:


> "When using guide bushings, the established rule is to keep the distance between the cutting edge and the lip edge of the bushing 2 to 3mm.
> This is why I cannot disagee with some promoting the use of "40mm guide bushing" for all bit sizes."
> 
> I'm not sure where this came from, the advantages of using a 40mm guide or any other large guide metric or Imperial one are, it's possible to SEE the cutter, routed material does not compact within the guide to cause excessive heat, the chuck can protrude through the guide for extra depth of cut and there are heaps more cutters available that can be used.


I have read it in many places.
It is also written in "The Encyclopedia of Wood Working Techniques" by Jeremy Broun
ISBN 0-7318-0396-5 page 102.

The use of a 40mm Guide Bushing will make say a V of a "heart shape" pattern become a large U with a 20mm radius.
Depending on the size of the item to be produced, this may or may not be acceptable.
So for real production work, people go for Inverted Pin where the pin is the same size as the router bit or else use a bit with end-bearing.

If we need to use hand-held, the nature is that the bushing must be larger than the bit so the best compromise is the keep the size of the bushing as close as possible as the blade diameter. - to avoid major defomationn of the original pattern.

Using 40mm Bushing for all bits is of course acceptable if we are cutting straight lines and large patterns where only optuse angles and large curves are present.

I repect other's opinions and do not want to get into arguments.

"everyone is entitled to his/her opinion, but everyone is not entitled to his/her own facts""




Reuel


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## dovetail_65 (Jan 22, 2008)

I think the idea that one needs to use the smallest template guide or guides that will get the job done is the norm. At least for me it is. 

I also try to design so a bearing bit is not required becasue the guides give a better more consistent result.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

I have just realised what all the confusion is about, I use FEMALE templates and plunge rout, only minor edging being completed on the table. These shots might remove the confusion. Members who have followed my projects over the past two years will of course know that I plunge rout using female templates, this being a very safe method due to the fact that after each operation, the cutter returns to the safety of the housing. I have many times shown how easy it is to make female templates accurately.
These shots should clear things up.


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## template tom (Sep 18, 2004)

*Routing with template guides*



reuelt said:


> "Guide Bushing + hand held routing" have its application.
> e.g. If I am installing Kitchen Bench onsite, I would use a Benchtop template + 30mm guide bushing to cut & join Bench tops. I can't use a router table then.
> For making items in the workshop, I prefer the use of the router table.
> The table fence allows better fine adjustments - not as easy with the hand held routing.
> ...


_I have to agree with what you have pointed out regarding the job you have on hand._


_I am not looking at replacing the use of the router table to complete some projects and I suppose a great number of cabinet makers do not require the use of the guides for the work they are producing. Though when I was conducting my cabinet work it was necessary for me to adopt an alternative method of approach to complete a number of projects. One of my specialities was refurbishing executive jets that required some complex routing procedures at the time. It is since I required to find alternative methods I realised that we were not getting the full potential from our router_

_Profile bits with bearings especially small bearings can produce the tight curves that are sometimes required_

_I do agree with you that guide bushes used on the table is not the best way to go_

_Just as a matter of interest I for one *do not* promote the 40mm template guide for all router cutters. It is not just the 2-3mm spacing required there is more to it._

_I see that you have been involved in the woodworking field for over 50 years, was this as a cabinetmaker or as a hobby? Secondly what sort of projects would you produce with the aid of the template guides? _

Tom


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Harry

I see the template but I wish you would show how you made the template from square one..I'm guessing you made one side and then flip it over to make the other side so it comes out the same on both side.  but that's just a guess, but you need to see how you got the profile. I'm sure others would like to make one but the trick is the pattern..and how to make the template... 

Drawing one on paper is one thing but doing it in wood is a norther 

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harrysin said:


> I have just realised what all the confusion is about, I use FEMALE templates and plunge rout, only minor edging being completed on the table. These shots might remove the confusion. Members who have followed my projects over the past two years will of course know that I plunge rout using female templates, this being a very safe method due to the fact that after each operation, the cutter returns to the safety of the housing. I have many times shown how easy it is to make female templates accurately.
> These shots should clear things up.


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## template tom (Sep 18, 2004)

bobj3 said:


> Hi Guys
> 
> What do they say a picture is worth a 1000 words...
> 
> ...


Very impressive jigs you produce Bob mainly for use in the router table. Have you made any jigs suitable for use with the aid of the template guides in the plunge mode and not used in the router table that you can show members? 

Tom


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## reuelt (Dec 29, 2008)

template tom said:


> _I have to agree with what you have pointed out regarding the job you have on hand._
> 
> 
> _I am not looking at replacing the use of the router table to complete some projects and I suppose a great number of cabinet makers do not require the use of the guides for the work they are producing. Though when I was conducting my cabinet work it was necessary for me to adopt an alternative method of approach to complete a number of projects. One of my specialities was refurbishing executive jets that required some complex routing procedures at the time. It is since I required to find alternative methods I realised that we were not getting the full potential from our router_
> ...


I have no desire to challege anyone who obviously wants to be "the only tiger on a hill".


Just to restate my background
As I said in my introduction, I worked for a cabinet maker duing my teens (secondary school days) after school using ONLY 100% manual hand tools.
After graduation I have been a Production Engineer and Production manger of a large 2200 employees factory (15 years)
Woodworking is my hobby by my expertise with Computers is tapped by a fellow church elder who is in the woodworking industry.
He owned a hardware store and produced moldings with overhead routers. A multi million dollor business. This was why I bought a Hitachi MV12V Router. He told me that the only two routers that never burned up was the ELU & the Hitachi. (makita failed too)
I helped to mordernise his Melboune factory. he was making huge woodstuning
products using templates, Large wooden signs using Router Copier and bandsawned building products.
I helped him buy and installed large, medium and small CNC routers and CNC lathes.

My day job is in the Computer industry and my clients include Metal forming factories using metal CNC lathes, CNC EDM and CNC Mills.

Why have a workshop full of MDF templates if all the templates could be in computers? 
But woodworking is always my hobby. I am not going to take a "CNC production operator job" as a hobby.
The fun of doing stuff by hand using portable power tools or table mounted Routers is why I am in this forum. - not to tell CDs or my services.


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## dovetail_65 (Jan 22, 2008)

Luckily some people still value things made with humans hands instead of just a computer controlled router cutting all the pieces, otherwise I would have no business at all. 

My niche is making with small tools what about 10 other companies make using CNC. 

Customization is just as expensive using CNC for one offs so there is still a place for the one man shop making one of a kind objects, thankfully.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

GrummanTiger said:


> My wife does actually. Her last plane was a Grumman Tiger. Now she has a Piper Warrior. Don't know why, but the Grandkids started calling me Grumman..and it stuck.. <grin>


and here I thought you took your name from the Grumman aluminum canoes that used to be made in Peterborough. Go figure.

Allthunbs


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

reuelt said:


> I have no desire ...


Oops. We don't go there folks. We can agree or disagree with anyone's philosophy, present a different point of view, examine another's perspective but the golden rule here is we _never_ criticize anyone else. 

There is so much experience and knowledge in this forum from the most humble of participants to those researching and expounding new theories and practices, that we cannot afford to allow anyone be treated with less than the absolute respect they deserve. Besides, never criticize a man until you've walked a mile in his shoes. I have bad feet. I can't walk a mile in my own shoes. I'd have to use a bicycle.

There are those of us who cannot express themselves as eloquently as others but once you get beyond that difficulty, there is a gold mine of knowledge and experience here to be learned. We cannot afford to lose that education.

The burden is on the student to learn from the master. In this forum we are all students. At the same time we are all masters for we each bring something unique to the table, ourselves.

Allthunbs


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## dovetail_65 (Jan 22, 2008)

I have tried re-reading some of the posts. 

I do not think Tom is here in any way to promote a CD or DVD to make a ton of money, if that's what was implied.

Breaking even and possibly making a little and helping others to use his techniques for safeties sake is what I always gleaned from his posts.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

HI Nick

I will need to 2nd that.. Tom is a great guy and he has always just wanted to help others and he has in many,many ways..

So to say if you pick on him you will need to get pass me 1st..

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nickao65 said:


> I have tried re-reading some of the posts.
> 
> I do not think Tom is here in any way to promote a CD or DVD to make a ton of money, if that's what was implied.
> 
> Breaking even and possibly making a little and helping others to use his techniques for safeties sake is what I always gleaned from his posts.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

*Bob help here pls.*



levon said:


> i as a totally inexperienced person, just got my template guide set. my question is, to make a piece from a pattern where the workpiece and the pattern are the same size, dont i still need to use a flush tim bit with a brearing?


Hi Levon: you fell into the trap. You asked a question with a thousand possible answers. You're lucky, they haven't started into skis yet;-)

In short, YES, you need to use a flush trim bit with a bearing -- well, maybe. 

If your pattern is exactly like what you want to make, then yes, you want the bearing and the flush trim bit. Your end product will be the same size and almost the same detail as the original. You might have to do a little bit of filing or extra sanding for those little details. BTW, this is called a positive pattern.

*Bob* is there a video of positive template cutting somewhere using a table and flush trim bit? How about with a flush trim bit in the hand-held router with the template on the bottom and the workpiece in the middle?

Levon:
The opposite is when you have a board with the pattern cut into it (negative pattern/template) that a template guide comes into play. The template guide follows the pattern (template) and the bit, sticking through the guide, cuts the workpiece. The template is "adjusted" to allow for the difference in size of the bit compared to the template.

Both philosophies are equally strong but for different circumstances.

We'll get into those for your next project. For the moment, let's wait and see if Bob can find a few videos for you.

Allthunbs


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

HI allthunbs

The best one I have seen is the one for the steps/stairs made by Bob R.
You can see it on the http://www.thewoodworkingchannel.com/

below is just one of the tips from the RWS but it shows the steps/Stairs.
http://routerworkshop.com/stairmarkers.html

Bob and Rick are the pro's and they have done it many time on the RWS shows..Bob calls it the stick way most of the time..I use his way all the time because it's so easy to do on the router table 

I have posted some snapshots on the forum how to do it..the easy way using a template or sticks....

===========

below is a small list of tips from the RWS , I have about 40 of them...

http://www.routerworkshop.com/dtliner.html
http://routerworkshop.com/qalegfixture.html
http://routerworkshop.com/angleboxjt.html
http://routerworkshop.com/mugtreejig.html
http://routerworkshop.com/drawertip.html
http://routerworkshop.com/angledado.html
http://routerworkshop.com/vanitylegs.html
http://routerworkshop.com/stairmarkers.html
http://routerworkshop.com/envelopejig.html
http://routerworkshop.com/doweljig.html
http://routerworkshop.com/ezindex.html
http://routerworkshop.com/clampmtgauge.html

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allthunbs said:


> Hi Levon: you fell into the trap. You asked a question with a thousand possible answers. You're lucky, they haven't started into skis yet;-)
> 
> In short, YES, you need to use a flush trim bit with a bearing -- well, maybe.
> 
> ...


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## dovetail_65 (Jan 22, 2008)

Here is one using the top and bottom bearing(on the same bit) method on a table:

http://mlcswoodworking.com/shopsite...atana_bits3.htm#katana_flushtrim_video_anchor


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

*Levon you've got some video watching to do*

Thanks Bob and Nick.

Levon, start out with the one Nick gives first, then go through some of the ones that Bob gives.

Keep watching the videos until you're thoroughly familiar with all of the steps involved. You should be able to describe each step to your wife, in full. She should feel comfortable doing it herself. (well, maybe not but somehow prove to yourself that you know what you're doing.) If that doesn't work, come back here and start asking questions. There are >20,000 of us, someone will figure out how to help.

Allthunbs


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## levon (Sep 14, 2008)

hello allthumbs

im a little confused on the positive and negative patterns. if you mean the negative are cut out inside a board, would it not still be possible to use a flush trim bit? i dont mean to sound like im questioning you, i am just so inexperienced and trying to grasp when to use guides and when to use flush trim bits. i may have to practice more and learn more. but im curious. thanks for all your help allthumbs, bobj and nick!


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

HI levon

This may help, but then it may not  ,, see below 


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levon said:


> hello allthumbs
> 
> im a little confused on the positive and negative patterns. if you mean the negative are cut out inside a board, would it not still be possible to use a flush trim bit? i dont mean to sound like im questioning you, i am just so inexperienced and trying to grasp when to use guides and when to use flush trim bits. i may have to practice more and learn more. but im curious. thanks for all your help allthumbs, bobj and nick!


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## levon (Sep 14, 2008)

hello bobj ,

i see you have made a stick template and used a flush trim bearing bit to cut it out. my question im getting at is could you also have used a template guide and done the same thing, it would just make a slightly smaller opening? or am i confused? lol


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## levon (Sep 14, 2008)

bobj,

i really like those boards you made with the camlocks on them. . they look like they work great!


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi levon

Well no,, the guide will be in the way..on the router table but if you use the plunge router yes But you need some type of guide the sticks will work but they need to be about 3" wide or more to support the router but then if you use the ski jig it works will small sticks.. 
I know clear as mud  

The hold down block with cams works great to hold just about any thing quick and easy...





levon said:


> hello bobj ,
> 
> i see you have made a stick template and used a flush trim bearing bit to cut it out. my question im getting at is could you also have used a template guide and done the same thing, it would just make a slightly smaller opening? or am i confused? lol


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## levon (Sep 14, 2008)

thanks bobj 

after posting and while waiting for your answer, i figured out the template guide wouldnt let the bit cut if mounted in the table. you see, i am making progress, lolol! i m gonna get better if it kills me! lol 

now that ive figured that out, im gonna try and figure where a guide will work .again thanks for all the help.!


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi levon

Read the link in the post below  it will help you get it.

http://www.routerforums.com/94092-post2.html

Most don't get it , you need to have a inside template and a outside template, making the templates the inlay way is the easy way...it can be a oval or a round item or just about anything..but once you have the templates made you can use just about any brass guide to make the item..

You can use the plunge router or the router table with a trim bit.

I will say I'm not a big fan of the 1/8" bit when using the inlay kit way, I use a 1/4" bit and a 7/16" brass guide...it's just quicker and I brake less bits 

======




levon said:


> thanks bobj
> 
> after posting and while waiting for your answer, i figured out the template guide wouldnt let the bit cut if mounted in the table. you see, i am making progress, lolol! i m gonna get better if it kills me! lol
> 
> now that ive figured that out, im gonna try and figure where a guide will work .again thanks for all the help.!


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

levon said:


> hello allthumbs
> 
> im a little confused on the positive and negative patterns. if you mean the negative are cut out inside a board, would it not still be possible to use a flush trim bit? i dont mean to sound like im questioning you, i am just so inexperienced and trying to grasp when to use guides and when to use flush trim bits. i may have to practice more and learn more. but im curious. thanks for all your help allthumbs, bobj and nick!


Hi Levon: forget all about that stuff for the moment and go concentrate on watching the videos. If you watch enough of them, you'll see the difference. For the moment let's concentrate on your project. All will become clear in time. Let's not rush time, it's going fast enough.

Allthunbs


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