# Pocket Hole or Biscuit?



## JohnnyB60 (Jun 15, 2009)

*Dowel Jig or Biscuit?*

I cannot find my Doweling Jig and was wondering if I could use Biscuits instead. If Dowels is the only way then I run out to Home Depot and buy one. I just wanted to ask first before running out to buy another set. I said Pocket Hole But I wanted to say Dowel. Sorry!

I don't want miters because its going into a corner and I want the corner to be strong. Oh I also cut it to size already in anticipation of using the pocket. 








Home Depot has them for $30

General Tools Aluminum EZ Dowel Joining Jig Kit-841 at The Home Depot


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Depends what the joint is being used for. You mentioned you wanted it to be strong... (without screws or nails implied)

In joint strength, the long grain of the "out" side of the joint would be parallel to the force being applied, with the pulled side against that side of the joint.... And most biscuits are a pressed wooden wafer (grain compromised). So with that, a dowel as a floating tenon would be stronger than a biscuit... an oval floating tenon stronger than a dowel... a locking miter profile would be stronger than a floating tenon. Somewhere in there with the locking miter joint, rabbets and splines... Each would add more glue surface (which add strength to a joint) , but the materials being used and how the long-grains interact with each other also add different "strength" factors. Above that would be finger joints and dovetailing.

That's the factors to think on... Next is just the effort you want to do to get there. But your "decision" in the end.


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## JohnnyB60 (Jun 15, 2009)

MAFoElffen said:


> Depends what the joint is being used for. You mentioned you wanted it to be strong... (without screws or nails implied)
> 
> In joint strength, the long grain of the "out" side of the joint would be parallel to the force being applied, with the pulled side against that side of the joint.... And most biscuits are a pressed wooden wafer (grain compromised). So with that, a dowel as a floating tenon would be stronger than a biscuit... an oval floating tenon stronger than a dowel... a locking miter profile would be stronger than a floating tenon. Somewhere in there with the locking miter joint, rabbets and splines... Each would add more glue surface (which add strength to a joint) , but the materials being used and how the long-grains interact with each other also add different "strength" factors. Above that would be finger joints and dovetailing.
> 
> That's the factors to think on... Next is just the effort you want to do to get there. But your "decision" in the end.


Thanks Mike, 
The wife wanted to go to the store near Home depot so decided to go ahead and buy that one. Now that I have a new one, the old one will show up I'm sure. :sarcastic:
This one is a little different and I'll see how it works. My old one had a round thing that rotated with the holes and I think it was adjustable for the width and this on this not, but it should work for 3/4" boards.
Oh this is a kick board for the bottom of a cabinet on wheels and the reason I didn't want the miter is the corner might hit something when being pushed around.


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## Gene Howe (Jul 10, 2007)

You made the right choice of the two options you had. I'm not a big fan of biscuits, for strength, anyway. Great for alignment, but splines work as well. Doweled joints are far superior for strength. 
A half lap would be even stronger.


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## JohnnyB60 (Jun 15, 2009)

Wow, I just did my 1st joint with this new jig and I should have made a practice run or at least read the instructions. :sarcastic:

There are 3 holes on each side and I did not realize that they were for different offsets. I managed to get it together but it’s not square, the offset was dialed in on my other one. Plus it doesn’t exactly work on 2 ½” wide boards because the clamp doesn’t connect with the board on the last hole. 

Luckily I have more wood, because I need to start over with a new board. I may even have to make an alignment jig for the dowel jig. I should cut this joint out in tack and hang it on the wall as a reminder of what NOT to do. :stop:


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## MT Stringer (Aug 15, 2012)

I couldn't figure out what you are doing but pocket holes and screws will make a strong joint. You decide where you want the holes and adjust the board accordingly, then drill the hole (minimum of two to prevent twisting).

It is a good idea to set some sort of assy area with a true 90 deg corner so you can have something to work against and clamp to if possible.

Good luck.
Mike


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## JohnnyB60 (Jun 15, 2009)

MT Stringer said:


> I couldn't figure out what you are doing but pocket holes and screws will make a strong joint. You decide where you want the holes and adjust the board accordingly, then drill the hole (minimum of two to prevent twisting).
> 
> It is a good idea to set some sort of assy area with a true 90 deg corner so you can have something to work against and clamp to if possible.
> 
> ...


This is what happened. I've been thinking about ripping it with a table saw to straighten it out and save some wood. Oops That will not work because I need the inside measurements. I definitely need a better plan for the other side


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## Big Steve (Feb 12, 2012)

My approach would be pocket hole joinery since the inside will not be seen.


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

JohnnyB60 said:


> This is what happened. I've been thinking about ripping it with a table saw to straighten it out and save some wood. Oops That will not work because I need the inside measurements. I definitely need a better plan for the other side


What I would do for that is put a hardwood dowel in. Let dry and Cut flush as a plug. Re-drill new hole. Old one is hidden in the joint.

(Dry fit joints and adjust before glueing...)


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## JohnnyB60 (Jun 15, 2009)

Big Steve said:


> My approach would be pocket hole joinery since the inside will not be seen.


I wasn't sure I could do that in only 3/4" space, but then I've never done a Pocket hole before.


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## MT Stringer (Aug 15, 2012)

JohnnyB60 said:


> This is what happened. I've been thinking about ripping it with a table saw to straighten it out and save some wood. Oops That will not work because I need the inside measurements. I definitely need a better plan for the other side


Thanks for the pic. I am not familiar with that jig. Is it for drilling dowel holes or what?

I use the Kreg pocket hole jig...alot.
Hope this helps.
Mike


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## JohnnyB60 (Jun 15, 2009)

MAFoElffen said:


> What I would do for that is put a hardwood dowel in. Let dry and Cut flush as a plug. Re-drill new hole. Old one is hidden in the joint.
> 
> (Dry fit joints and adjust before glueing...)


The wife said I should go ahead and try to rip it and it looked great on the outside but then I made the mistake of trying to take a little of the inside. I should have left it alone and cut the base instead, because I went a little too far with the inside cut so then I ripped the top to lose the little saw cut. 
Now I’m not sure if I’m going to keep it or not. I have it just setting there trying to make a decision. 
I know I need to sand it yet, but I want to wait till I know I’m going to use it.


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## JohnnyB60 (Jun 15, 2009)

MT Stringer said:


> Thanks for the pic. I am not familiar with that jig. Is it for drilling dowel holes or what?
> 
> I use the Kreg pocket hole jig...alot.
> Hope this helps.
> Mike


Yes its for aligning up the holes and also a drilling guide. it comes with 3 different sizes of drills and and dowels.

Oh I almost forgot, thanks for the photos. I may buy one of those some day


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## JohnnyB60 (Jun 15, 2009)

*How should I attach this?*

I’m not so sure I want to try using Dowels again and was wondering if I should just glue this bottom kick board with HD Construction glue in the tube. What do you think?


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## roofner (Aug 1, 2010)

I use pocket holes I use biscuits and I have a beadlock pro which is loose tenon joints. If you want pocket holes I would wait until September when Kreg comes out with new jig which will have a form of self adjusting clamps and the old better jig similar to the k3. If the pocket hole joints are not visible, I'll use pocket holes there self clamping. If in a visible spot I'll use biscuits easy to use also like the pocket holes do not have to be perfectly aligned about an 1/8 inch fudge factor the important thing is you must match same surface the joint was cut . If you flip one of the pieces the top surfaces will not match. Mortise and tenon must be precise.


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## JohnnyB60 (Jun 15, 2009)

roofner said:


> I use pocket holes I use biscuits and I have a beadlock pro which is loose tenon joints. If you want pocket holes I would wait until September when Kreg comes out with new jig which will have a form of self adjusting clamps and the old better jig similar to the k3. If the pocket hole joints are not visible, I'll use pocket holes there self clamping. If in a visible spot I'll use biscuits easy to use also like the pocket holes do not have to be perfectly aligned about an 1/8 inch fudge factor the important thing is you must match same surface the joint was cut . If you flip one of the pieces the top surfaces will not match. Mortise and tenon must be precise.


Thanks Gary, I may use the biscuits on the plywood edge and I have two 2x2 blocks glued and screwed to use for dowels. I was a little disappointed in how this particular jig worked, but I think I got this dowel jig down now.

I just installed the other end piece with the dowels just to be consistent and WOW I saw something I never saw before. As I was pressing the pieces together with the clamps, glue oozed out of the end grain. At first I thought the oak had cracked, but it wasn’t. So I guess this is going to be a strong joint after all.


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

*The Ozzie Jig....*

This is what I use for dowel joints.


http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&r...SAMM-OmHvMFq6kg&bvm=bv.50165853,d.dGI&cad=rja


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## JohnnyB60 (Jun 15, 2009)

jw2170 said:


> This is what I use for dowel joints.
> 
> 
> http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&r...SAMM-OmHvMFq6kg&bvm=bv.50165853,d.dGI&cad=rja


Thanks James, I never seen anything like that or dowels at an angle before


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## cagenuts (May 8, 2010)

What's wrong with a box joint? Or even a nice dovetail?


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## mgmine (Jan 16, 2012)

This is another vote for a pocket hole. They are very strong and vary fast to do.


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## cagenuts (May 8, 2010)

I love pocket holes. If you can hide the hole or plug it nicely then it's a quick and very strong joint. I like the look of the new Kreg K5 that is coming out next month.

I've never quite understood why woodworkers still use dowels in this modern age. Pocket holes and biscuits are much quicker and there's still the option of a routed floating tenon.


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## roofner (Aug 1, 2010)

You need the clamps and jig with the kreg jig but you will find you are using the clamps all the time for other things the precision of kreg jig is the clamps. The new jig will be big improvement so wait a month price will be the same .


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## JohnnyB60 (Jun 15, 2009)

mgmine said:


> This is another vote for a pocket hole. They are very strong and vary fast to do.


Hi Art.
No disrespect, I’m just trying to understand and I have never used one before, but I just don’t see how a Pocket Hole could be very strong in this configuration. Am I missing something because it looks like it could rip right out of the end grain? 

I can see it in the center of the board but not at the end.


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## cagenuts (May 8, 2010)

Johnny, pocket holes are designed to join boards exactly as you have shown in your diagram. Mega strong and I don't even bother with glue.

The screws pull the joint together tighter than a nun's arse.


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## JohnnyB60 (Jun 15, 2009)

cagenuts said:


> Johnny, pocket holes are designed to join boards exactly as you have shown in your diagram. Mega strong and I don't even bother with glue.
> 
> The screws pull the joint together tighter than a nun's arse.


Wow and no glue. That's incredible, I guess I'm going to have buy one of those and try it out. I have to admit that there have been times when a setup like that would have come in handy.

Thanks Hilton


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## JohnnyB60 (Jun 15, 2009)

roofner said:


> You need the clamps and jig with the kreg jig but you will find you are using the clamps all the time for other things the precision of kreg jig is the clamps. The new jig will be big improvement so wait a month price will be the same .


Thanks Gary


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## roofner (Aug 1, 2010)

Don't forget wait a month to buy new improved jig will be out.
http://www.kregtool.com/Kreg-Jig-K5-Prodview.html


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

JohnnyB60 said:


> *Wow and no glue*. That's incredible, I guess I'm going to have buy one of those and try it out. I have to admit that there have been times when a setup like that would have come in handy.
> 
> Thanks Hilton


(One of the 5 doweling jigs I have is the one you just bought. One other is the dial type you misplaced...) 

On what I have highlighted from your post- Method misunderstanding. No... At least for me > I do pockets holes WITH glue. The strength in that joining technique is not in the screw itself...


_"All In It's Place and Time... A Perspective"_ 
(I realize that this post may not make me popular here...)

I can't say I don't use pocket screws, because I have for over 40 some years. I don't overuse it as a joining technique and don't try to use it for everything. But I use them where they aren't seen... where I need something quick. For example- For faces on cabinets where all the faces are flat, joining together in butt joints, then joined to a cabinet box... Then when the cabinets are mounted, the cabinet faces are screwed to each other. The back of the face is towards the cabinet box, so you never see it.

It's quick, simple (if learned and practiced) and strong... to a point. Well, I guess I should say that pocket hole joining has been around a while, long before Kreg ever became a business and made it "popular." 

Of my 4 pocket holes jigs, the one I've used most is over 40 years old. It has a steeper angle than what is now considered as standard now with current standard "pocket hole screws" (current standard is #8 1-1/4" pocket hole screw). 

That jig uses what were called #6 1-1/2" "cabinet mounting screws". There used to be "cabinet screws" that looked like black drywall screws with a countersunk Phillips head and "cabinet mounting screws" that looked like black pocket hole screws with a shoulder shank, with a round Phillips button head. The difference to their modern descendants is that for the diameter of the outside of their threads (#8 in diameter), the shanks and valleys of the threads were thin in diameter (#6 in diameter)... More aggressive looking threads, because the threads were thicker around than the shank, the shank being the same diameter as the valley of the threads. (Not like today's, were the shank is the same as the outside diameter of the threads.) They held without splitting the wood. They held the wood together to use with glue and helped keep the wood from pulling apart. They had to be put in with care or the screw would shear/break. They were brittle. Once in, they were great. But they were meant to use with gluing.

Because this screw was 1-1/2" long and had a longer shoulder, the angle was steeper. It only had a 5/16" drilled pilot hole, instead of what others use now (3/8"). The point from the pilot hole, where the screw head rests/pulls has more distance from it, to the joint... was a longer distance than current jigs do now, by about 3/8" to 1/2"... It was very clean looking compared to today's pocket holes. It didn't have a tendency to split and had less of a tendency to get too close to the opposite face. Unfortunately, I think I just ran out of the last source I knew of for those sized screws!!!!

To do a good job at that, first, you have to clamp the work while you are assembling a pocket hole joint... or the joint face opposite will try to shift. I keep it clamped until the glue is dry. Most of the strength in that joint is the glued adhesion, with the added help of the screw, to help prevent "movement" from breaking that glued joint. On facings, I also staple that side of the butt joint, with a wide crown staple bridging the joint. That helps it from shifting/moving and seems to keep them together / helps the joints last longer over passage of "time". But then that face is joined as an assembly to a cabinet box, in a way that also holds it all together...

I also use this joint in some lower end furniture joining for braces that are not seen...

But that is like I described earlier in this thread for other joints... there is a progression in the strength of joints and how things work together. ...And in what customers know to look for in craftsmanship. In higher end cabinets and furniture, instead of using pocket holes for facings, I'll mortise and loose tenon (includes doweling) or mortise & tenon. In those two categories, then if strength is needed, then I'll pin the tenons from the offside with dowels or metal pins.

In rocking chairs, I pin the tenons with wooden dowels.

For drawers, for example... one customers told me... the first thing they do when the see a chest of drawers or roll-top desk is to pull a drawer and look at the joining. If they see finger joints or dovetailing, they know it represents craftsmanship and attention to detail. They say they expect and will pay for that.

Other types of joining, you don't see visually. It's not staring you in the face that inside what looks like a but joint, lies a loose tenon or tenon.... But when it stays together, customers do appreciate that. If it comes apart, they remember that for a longer time.

So it's not that I don't do pocket holes or doweling... I do both. But I don't over use them as joining technique. Most customers, when they see pocket holes, associate that with short-cuts and low quality, not with craftsmanship... Not my call- just what I've heard from my customers.. I listen.

But if the ease of pocket hole joining gets you to build more things and keep you busy... Then I think it's right for you. Kreg has reintroduced it as a catch-all do-it-all. It has gotten people excited about making things again. Good on that... LOL I don't want to offend, so... there is a place for it. I don't need to get into the physics of the way the screw is holding in the grain in shallow shoulder of today's current sized pocket hole screw do I? I will post that... 

Today's pocket hole jigs do not create as strong a joint as they used to be, but the jigs make it easier to drill the pilot holes. Overall, 40 years experience with pocket hole joining has shown me that it is not as strong as some try to lead you to believe. Just that darn real-world reality of it.

But like any joining techniques, there are some peculiarities you need to learn and practice with it to get it right.


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## MT Stringer (Aug 15, 2012)

@JohnnyB - I am reorganizing my *garage/workshop* by building cabinets and a miter saw station. I have used pocket hole joinery for all of the cabinets and the face frames for each one. 

The most important thing to remember is make sure your cuts are 90 deg. The joints assemble tight w/no glue needed unless you want to use it.

As you can see from the pics, there is a lot of weight in the cabinets already. No problems encountered.

Take a few minutes and browse through the pics. You might some inspiration for your projects.

Hope this helps.
Mike


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## Willway (Aug 16, 2012)

I have a general rule, pocket holes or biscuits are for cabinet work. Dowels, tenons, or biscuits for furniture work. One of the best doweling jigs on the market is the Dowl-It, and has been around for years, and is still US made. Pocket hole joinery is strong, but is not nearly as strong as a properly done dowel joint. A HF Pocket hole jig works just fine and many like it better than the Kreg jig. I get a lot of crap for saying that, but lets face it folks, *Kreg Tool and Harbor Freight are both American companies, and both use offshore manufacturing, mostly China.* I am not comparing the quality of all HF tools to Kreg tools, only the pocket hole jigs. Kreg is a fine company and I use many of their tools, but don't fool yourselves into thinking they are American made.


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## OPG3 (Jan 9, 2011)

I use hundreds of SQUARE DRIVE pocket hole screws every month. I love them. When I am building something to show (like furniture) the pocket holes will be hidden. Like Mike mentioned, though; I also use glue - then the screw becomes a super-efficient and stabilizing "clamp". Use more than one to prevent rotation. 

Dowels, to me have their place, also. I use a lot of dowels and find them ideal for many situations. One year Joy gave me a biscuit joiner for my birthday. I explained to her that I would not use it - I know they are great for some things, but I just didn't think it was a tool that I would get much use out of. She gave it to another family member and he said he used it twice - his first and his last time. Some people swear by them, others swear at them. 

Loose tenon joints are great, also. I use a lot of those and believe that to be an excellent route to a good solid joint. 

The main point should be this: there are times when one type of joint can be substituted for another for whatever reason, but it is a good idea to develop skill sets with a variety of joints. SQUARE DRIVE screws are so great that I find myself calling me stupid when I use any other type. When we had this house built, I changed-out all of the plantation-type shutters to SQUARE-DRIVE SCREWS in the support assembly. The builder thought I was crazy, until he tried them. Now 10 years later he is a big fan of them on everything he builds that uses screws.

Otis Guillebeau from Auburn, Georgia


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## JohnnyB60 (Jun 15, 2009)

Sorry to take so long in replying back, but I’ve run into more trouble with this project. 

Thanks MAFoElffen for all the great information on pocket holes. Wow, I don’t know what to say, but you covered a lot. Thanks so much for your time. 


The Pictures were helpful and thanks MT. 
The one problem I had was that for some reason I decided to sand the plywood edges to get strong glue joint and I lost my 90 deg edge. I have never sanded my plywood edges before because I usually use a good blade on my table saw and I will never do it again because now I have a lot of filling to do.



Thanks for the input Willway. I was at Lowes yesterday and I saw what I believe was the Dowel jig that I lost and I could see right away that it would have been the best “locally available” choice for me because of the way I was trying to do things. The one I bought worked, but it was limited to the smaller width board sizes and I had 4 situations were I could use the wider one.


Thanks Otis, 
I hate to see anything go to waste and even thought I haven’t used my biscuit cutter yet, I’m still looking for something to use it on. I think the only reason I wanted one in the first place was that I saw it being used on TV. I don’t remember now. Buy I think it was Norm Abrams on New Yankee Workshop and I figured he would know better than most LOL.

It sure looked like a cleaver way of doing it and as far as strength goes it seams like most of every fine woodworking projects are usually very fragile anyway or at least you can’t touch them. LOL


So anyway, I did finish my project and I’m not really happy with it, but its going work for what it was intended and will not be seen anyway. I learned from a lot of mistakes I made and I hope I remember this because I don’t want to go through this again. What was supposed to be a weekend project turned into a nightmare, but it’s done except for some wood filler and sanding.

My biggest mistake was trying to do this in a hurry and not thinking things through before assembly. There was so much that could have made this so much easier if I would have done things in the proper order.


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## roofner (Aug 1, 2010)

I think some of you should get the biscuit joiner out and try it. I find it works well with 45 degree angles. you must match tops when joints are cut. Clamp the piece being cut to a bench so it cant move. Center the biscuit on the joint. Also good for gluing wider panel.


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## OPG3 (Jan 9, 2011)

Johnny, You're very welcome. The mistakes you have mentioned are mistakes we have all made. It is called "the learning curve". My Dad said that if I could learn from my mistakes, I was destined to become a genius. Sometimes my mistakes are so overwhelming that I even do them a second time, and a third. We all learn at different speeds and through various manners. The expensive lessons are usually the ones that get most remembered.

Take care, thanks for sharing, and that is one of the 423 reasons this forum is so handy for so many people!

Otis Guillebeau from Auburn, Georgia


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