# How do I router out a small, shallow pocket?



## Dustin Tocher (Sep 16, 2016)

Hi guys,
I am new to the forum, and hopeful that you can help me with a project. I am doing some custom knife handles, and the knives are spring assisted, so I need to put the spring pocket in the one side of one of the handles. I have to do this for 10 knives. I was thinking of building a small router table, and that I could put a matching pocket in a piece of aluminum or something as a guide, but the smallest corner is only going to fit a 1/8" cutter. I am new to using a router as well, so ANY advice will be hugely appreciated. There will 5 done in micarta, and 5 done in stabilized walnut. The handle blanks will be 4.5x1.5" and the pocket needs to be .082" deep. Because of the precision of these knives, and the action of the spring, these pockets need to be quite precise. I attached a photo of the stock handle, as reference. 
Cheers,
Dustin
You can see my work on Facebook and Instagram @Tocherdesigns


----------



## old55 (Aug 11, 2013)

Welcome to the forum Dustin. I can't help with your inquiry but I'm sure someone will be along to give some advice.


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Hello Dustin and welcome to the forums...

see if this helps..
Making Inlays With A Router - NewWoodworker.com LLC


----------



## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Welcome Dustin. To build a bunch and get them accurate and all the same you need a pattern or template or you need to farm them out to someone with a CNC router which you might want to check out. To rout the entire cavity with a 1/8" bit will be slow. I would rout most of it out with a larger bit and switch to 1/8" to finish the tight spots. You need a fairly short bit with a top bearing such as a small mortising bit to do the major cutout. The next problem is that there are no top bearing 1/8" bits so you would have to switch to a template guide and probably a different template for the last cuts or just chisel the last bit out instead which could be a lot faster than it may sound to you.


----------



## Quillman (Aug 16, 2010)

Way too spooky on the router table.
In my view, has to be done with hand routers.
& you're asking a lot from ground zero.
An understanding of the whole megillah is paramount.
You can see how many templets it takes to get to the work here.
And there were other templets to make these.
I'd be thinkin' laser templet routing, (have it done x a pro).
Complimentary template routing (CTR) is the end game in this art.
Not the beginning.


----------



## MEBCWD (Jan 14, 2012)

Make a template that you can use with a router collar and 1/8" bit. This post may help http://www.routerforums.com/guide-bushings-templates/27643-template-tutorial-beginners.html

You might see if you can find someone local with a CNC that could do the work at a reasonable cost and they could cut all the pockets and drill all the holes. They could even do 2 sided carving and contour the grip.
Or you could have them make a template for you to use with a router collar to cut the pocket that you could use over and over.


----------



## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

MEBCWD said:


> Make a template that you can use with a router collar and 1/8" bit. This post may help http://www.routerforums.com/guide-bushings-templates/27643-template-tutorial-beginners.html
> 
> You might see if you can find someone local with a CNC that could do the work at a reasonable cost and they could cut all the pockets and drill all the holes. They could even do 2 sided carving and contour the grip.
> Or you could have them make a template for you to use with a router collar to cut the pocket that you could use over and over.


I'm with you Mike , as soon as I seen it cnc came to mind . I'd like to see it done with a plunge router , but the template would be a pita too make IMO


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 30, 2009)

I see 2 pockets, and 3 recessed holes... too much for a simple template in my opinion AND what about the other side of the knife scale? There may be more pockets and holes on that one. A CNC is the way to go , and if you don't own one, you can buy one or rent time on one, OR farm out the entire project. Once programmed, the rest will be a 5 minute routing job, no limit to the number of pieces you can make.


----------



## gjackson52 (Jul 4, 2015)

Welcome to the forum !




Gary


----------



## The Hobbyist (Apr 25, 2015)

That project just screams for a CNC router. I can do it on my table, but you are in Canada, so ...

If you will be making more of these types of cuts, you might want to invst in an X-carve CNC machine or something like the Piranha or Laguna CNC router machines.

Joe

Piranha CNC machine

Laguna CNC machine

.


----------



## MEBCWD (Jan 14, 2012)

RainMan 2.0 said:


> I'm with you Mike , as soon as I seen it cnc came to mind . I'd like to see it done with a plunge router , but the template would be a pita too make IMO


I have made templates for things like this knife scale by hand by calculating all the offsets and laying out the cuts with circle templates, french curves, and straight edges, then cutting the waste out by drilling and filing but making the template by laying it out in your CNC design software and cutting it on you CNC is better. You can make a set of indexed templates to cut all the openings with a hand held router.

Here is a picture of knife scales I did as a present a few years ago. Could not find the pictures of the finished knife, maybe lost during a computer crash.


----------



## Dustin Tocher (Sep 16, 2016)

Thanks for all the replies gents. Great to get so much feedback, so quickly. As a CNC Machinist/programmer, doing it with a CNC was my first choice, but I don't have one, nor can I use the ones at work. Also, programming that pocket, without a 3D scanner, would be a seriously difficult task.
Woodneagle, I should have been more accurate with my OP, and have attached another photo, outlining the pocket in question. All of the holes are no sweat, and will be done prior to the pocket. The only feature needing to be done by a router, is the one circled in red. I have been thinking of making a template with the pocket shape, and also with dowels to mate up with that hole pattern. That way I can repeat the pocket location with accuracy, in relation to the holes. Does this make sense? Is the plunge router going to be the better option, over using a table? Thanks again for all your help. It is GREATLY appreciated!
Cheers,
Dustin


----------



## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

My personal opinion is that it would be much harder to do accurately on a table. I would use a plunge. It is possible to do that job freehand with pretty good accuracy. I would print to scale that shape and then use water soluble glue (like Lee Valley's fish glue) to attach it to the scale. Then I would try scoring the finished line with a knife to finished depth. Then route close to the line on one pass and to the finished line on the second pass. If you have very little wood to remove it isn't too hard to maintain control of the router and the scored line also helps to avoid going in too deep.


----------



## The Hobbyist (Apr 25, 2015)

Dustin Tocher said:


> programming that pocket, without a 3D scanner, would be a seriously difficult task.


Really? I see it as a very easy task, using V-carve and a simple trace of the profile. I could also carve that using a router on my PlasmaCam table.

I am not seeing the complexity. It is just a simple pocket routing.

Joe



.


----------



## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

I think you're right, Joe. Scan it and use the bitmap tracing tool.

HJ


----------



## Dustin Tocher (Sep 16, 2016)

The Hobbyist said:


> Really? I see it as a very easy task, using V-carve and a simple trace of the profile. I could also carve that using a router on my PlasmaCam table.
> I am not seeing the complexity. It is just a simple pocket routing.
> Joe
> .


Thanks for that Joe. I looked into it, and you are right. That does look like an easy approach. Unfortunately, due to my budget for this project, and my lack of access to the necessary equipment, I think I will have to do it as others have suggested, and use a plunge router, and a template. I think I will even try to freehand one, and see how that goes. You have all offered up some very good info, and it is great to have stumbled upon such a fantastic forum. 
Cheers,
Dustin


----------



## CharleyL (Feb 28, 2009)

You are going to need to build a fixture to hold the knife blank as well as a template to put above the blank for the router to follow. I would start with a piece of plywood that could be screwed or clamped to my workbench as a base for this jig. I would then add a second piece of plywood about the same size, but as close as possible in thickness to the thickness of the knife blank. I would then closely trace the perimeter of the knife blank onto this piece of wood and carefully cut this image out with a scroll saw. 

Then I would fasten both of these layers of plywood together with screws, glue, etc. and then insert the knife blank into this cavity. I would then use transfer punches of the size for the holes in the knife blank, to transfer the hole locations to the bottom layer of plywood, remove the knife blank, and then drill the dowel holes on a drill press and insert dowels of the correct size. From here on you need to key everything off your dowels to keep the alignments correct. 

Now comes the job of making the template to route the cavity. Take a piece of 1/4" birch plywood and use the knife blank to again transfer the hole positions to this piece of plywood, Remove the knife blank and carefully drill the holes. Now you will need to mark the shape of this cavity onto this piece of plywood and add the offset distance between the router bit diameter and the outside diameter of the bushing that you wish to use. This will create an image of the cavity that is larger than the first image, by the distance between your router bit and the bushing outside surface. If it's say 3/16", as an example, you will need to increase the size of the cavity image that you wish to rout by this dimension (3/16") in all directions. I have used computer graphics programs to easily enlarge patterns like this to produce a paper template that I can then attach to wood and then cut to the line of the pattern with a scroll saw, leaving a hole in is pattern larger than the needed cavity by the router bit to bushing dimension, but the exact same shape as the hole that I needed to route.

Now you are ready to route your first, hopefully extra, test piece knife blank to cut the cavity in it. 

When the part to be routed is placed in the cavity in layer two and over the alignment dowels, and then this routing pattern is placed over it with the dowels keeping all of the layers and the part to be routed, held in alignment, it has been quite easy for me to just follow the pattern and rout out the cavity in the parts that I've made this way, to the dimensions and shape desired.

Once the knife blank and the template are held on some kind of base in close alignment to each other, It is a simple task to use a small plunge router with a bushing bit to rout that area out very accurately. It's going to take some time to build all of this, but cutting the cavity should only take a few minutes per knife handle, once the jig is built, I too would like to see a larger bit and a second template used for the larger bit to remove the bulk of the material. Then the second template and 1/8" bit for the small remaining areas. Once you have built this jig it will be easy to make one knife cavity or a thousand in any knife blank of this same outer shape and hole pattern to fit these dowels. If the knife is similar, but needs a different cavity, it's a simple job to just create a new top layer pattern for the new cavity desired.

Harry Sinclair (harrysin) has done similar templates, so a search of his work might show some good examples. I haven't done any of this in years, so I don't think I even have one of my jigs around to photograph.

Charley


----------



## Gaffboat (Mar 11, 2012)

So, I have to ask: Can the pocket be carved BEFORE the shape of the handle is cut? I think it would greatly simplify using a jig and carving the pocket if the stock is over size with square sides than can be locked in place. I could envision cutting a lot of pockets in a much larger piece of blank stock and then cutting the individual pieces to their finished outline and size. Working with oversize raw stock should also simplify your jig making.


----------



## MEBCWD (Jan 14, 2012)

If you make a template it will probably need to be an indexed set because of the small bumped out section. At that point your hole in a template would probably be large enough that you would loose the bumped out section. 2 templates would do it though.

Here is an example of an indexed set of templates I made for a customer to use with a router collar and bit to carve a logo.


----------



## Dustin Tocher (Sep 16, 2016)

Gaffboat said:


> So, I have to ask: Can the pocket be carved BEFORE the shape of the handle is cut? I think it would greatly simplify using a jig and carving the pocket if the stock is over size with square sides than can be locked in place. I could envision cutting a lot of pockets in a much larger piece of blank stock and then cutting the individual pieces to their finished outline and size. Working with oversize raw stock should also simplify your jig making.


 Yes, this is what I was thinking of doing. I can probably do a piece about 4x11 in micarta, which I should be able to get 6 handle sides from. I'm not sure what size the wood will be yet, but I can keep them in squared up blanks for routing. 
I think I will also make a jig to do the necessary holes, so I can go ahead and drill all 6 of those pieces in the one large blank. Then I figure aligning the router template to those holes should be rather easy. 
I guess I could also do a template for the outer handle profile, and rough that into shape while I am at it.


----------



## Dustin Tocher (Sep 16, 2016)

MEBCWD said:


> If you make a template it will probably need to be an indexed set because of the small bumped out section. At that point your hole in a template would probably be large enough that you would loose the bumped out section. 2 templates would do it though.
> 
> Here is an example of an indexed set of templates I made for a customer to use with a router collar and bit to carve a logo.


That is really creative! And, looks quite complex. lol
I'm not really sure I follow how to apply this idea to my pocket. Would I make a template for the main area of the pocket, leaving the bump out, and then make another template with the bump, and use a smaller cutter?


----------



## MEBCWD (Jan 14, 2012)

Dustin I just did a quick check and you might not have to make 2 templates, depends on the acttual dimensions of the pocket. My layout is a guess.


----------

