# How flat should flat be?



## Dale2992 (Dec 13, 2012)

Made a bare bones router table and it has been fair to use but wife went with me about three weeks ago and saw some commercial tables at a Woodworking store. Sweet as she can be she wanted me to get a new router table for a combined Birthday and early Father's Day gift. I have been blessed, she is a real gem.

Last week during Routermania at Rockler I bought the HPL Top Stand and Fence Combination and saved a bunch of money on my car insurance. Oops I meant on shipping as well. Anyway I put it together last night and in general fit and finish is very nice.

However, after I put it together I found major discrepancies to it being "Flat." Every corner was high when compared to the center of the table. I checked the plastic edge banding, that was not the problem. Talked to the Rockler folks and they suggested I shim it where it is low and retighten all the screws.

Being its a brand new top I thought I shouldn't have to do that, but decided to give it a whirl. I made the measurements with a feeler gauge about 1 inch from the opening for the plate.

As you look at the table starting at the front of the opening for the plate and going clockwise it originally was off by .045 front, .040 left, .037 rear, and .045 right. After shimming it I am now down to .006, .010, .008, .006. Obviously much closer than to begin with, then I thought maybe I was being overly critical of this.

Since I know you all for the most part have much more experience than me I am back to my question is How Flat should Flat be? What would be an acceptable tolerance may be the more intelligent question. 

Thanks in advance for your input, hope you are all well and having a great day!

Dale


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

On my home made table with a particle board top I couldn't see light under a straight edge. If you can it isn't flat enough in my opinion.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Geez that would be disappointing. You would think manufactured ones should be dam near perfect 
I'm surprised they didn't send you another instead of having you bandaid the issue

You should send one of your unused drones there way


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

I'd arrange for a replacement. Rockler has been good for that. I don't think there is anything that is perfectly flat, but I would think that any significant warp would likely reappear despite shimming. Call Rockler direct and speak to a human to arrange a return, the HQ, not the store. I have the same table and it is fine.


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## Dale2992 (Dec 13, 2012)

DesertRatTom said:


> I'd arrange for a replacement. Rockler has been good for that. I don't think there is anything that is perfectly flat, but I would think that any significant warp would likely reappear despite shimming. Call Rockler direct and speak to a human to arrange a return, the HQ, not the store. I have the same table and it is fine.


A return of the problem is what I was afraid of, I think I will get back with Rockler and see if they can help me out. In the past I have had nothing but Outstanding service from them so I don't think this will be an issue.


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## Quillman (Aug 16, 2010)

If a well jointed stick, heading to the cutter, rocks up & down:
The thing is unsafe, can provoke a self feed. spoil a profile, is unfit for joinery
and plum needs replacing.


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## Dale2992 (Dec 13, 2012)

*Rockler's reply*

Spoke to the folks at Rockler, the young lady said she didn't know much about Router Tables but knew they were supposed to be flat without being shimmed so they will be sending out a new top and it would have a return label inside for this one. 

I asked if it wasn't too much trouble to have someone put a straight edge on it before they shipped it out to which she replied she would make a note but didn't know if they were pre-boxed or if it was possible.

Anyway I decided to use a level and straight edge to check all the mounting holes in the metal stand and get them as close to flat as I possibly can before the new top arrives.

Does anyone have any suggestions that may help ensure I get and keep a flat table top?


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## PaulH (May 30, 2012)

Dale2992 said:


> Made a bare bones router table and it has been fair to use but wife went with me about three weeks ago and saw some commercial tables at a Woodworking store. Sweet as she can be she wanted me to get a new router table for a combined Birthday and early Father's Day gift. I have been blessed, she is a real gem.


She's a keeper!!!!!:yes4:


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## Dale2992 (Dec 13, 2012)

Thank You Paul, I think so too


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## Knothead47 (Feb 10, 2010)

Your wife is most understanding and generous. Does she have a sister?


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## Dale2992 (Dec 13, 2012)

Got a second top from Rockler and it is the same as the first one, Left to Right in front of the Plate opening it is off by .039 behind it is .024 and the sides are both off a bit. I even double checked to make sure it isn't in the edge banding, my fingernail doesn't catch when dragging from the table off the edge of the top, I guess no one checked it before shipping. 

Just got off the phone and the customer rep said she would have someone remove the top from the box and have someone put a straightedge on it to check it before shipping to me but I would have a new top in the mail today. I would hope if they do that the next top will be fine but if this isn't right I am going to cancel the order and send everything back. 

Fit and finish of everything else is really nice about the set-up. I really like the stand, the Micro Dot surface is cool and the plate fits my router just like it should so I will be really disappointed if they cant provide a flat top.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Dam that's disappointing . I wouldn't doubt there thinking your being to critical . 
I have a feeling this is a production issue and the only resolve is a different brand 
Hopefully I'm wrong


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Rick; since Dale supplied them with the off-specs info, they can't claim he's just being picky. They need to take their top mfg. out behind the barn; that's inexcusable quality control, not to mention ham fisted service.
I think that's covered under Chapter 3, 'How to Make a Client REALLY Angry'.
(Made in China?)


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

DaninVan said:


> Rick; since Dale supplied them with the off-specs info, they can't claim he's just being picky.


^^^I forgot about that , good point .

I was very nervous when I ordered my general cast RT as I thought with my luck it would be less than straight .I lucked out as it was back ordered so I didn't feel obligated to take it , and it's been cancelled since .
After seeing some of the issues members have had on the forum I'm more than happy to build my own . Glad I joined as I never would have bothered otherwise. I realize others don't have the time or resources to build there own , but I don't have much of an excuse


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## Dale2992 (Dec 13, 2012)

*It shipped*

Got an EMail notice that the top has shipped, since Customer service told me someone would put a straight edge on the next top before it shipped I have my fingers crossed. Will be here tomorrow or the Thursday.


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## Al B Thayer (Jun 2, 2014)

*gota be phlat*

Dale
Best of luck on the new top. I've looked at these units in the stores and haven't seen any that are flat enough. In my opinion, all need to be tuned so to speak. This will probably be the last one you buy. When it wares out you will have enough ideas of what a "perfect" router tale is and build your own. I'm on my second one which was a design build so there are a few things I will improve on with the third one. 

Al


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## MikeMa (Jul 27, 2006)

I have been following this thread and thinking this through a bit, especially as I am finishing up my new router table. The critical point of the router table is the plate (or if your not using one, the area immediately around the router bit). As long as the table is flat enough to let your work pieces travel flat on the plate, through the bit, unimpeded, the table is probably flat enough. 

I think this goes in line with how I set my machines up, which I know some of you will cringe. I don't use feelers, dial indicators, or any other high precision measuring tool, except for a good machinist square and a good straight edge. I get the tool dialed in as close as I am able to visually see (if I am squaring up a fence to table, and I don't see any light, its square). Then I run several tests pieces through the machines. If the test pieces come out square and to the correct dimensions, I am done. I used this same process when I tuned up my jointer this past weekend. 

If I was doing metal working, this setup procedure probably wouldn't be acceptable, but then the tolerances of metal working require a far high degree of precision. Since wood is a constantly changing medium, even with a perfectly dialed in machine, you will never get that degree of precision with it.


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## Dale2992 (Dec 13, 2012)

I appreciate that wood is ever changing, nature of the beast. 

If the tops were off by .007 or something less I would probably go with it, but two of the measurements were off by over .040. For free or for 20 or 30 bucks I wouldn't worry about it either, but this top package was over $250.

One of the projects I am in the planning stages will have several pieces routed that will mate to make a 90 degree inter-locking joint. I will be making five almost 8' long hollow pillars so actually 4 pieces will be made that will join together with a 90 degree bit set. 

When routing the piece with it flat on the table and a slight concave it would probably be not too difficult to flex the boards just slightly to get them to run correctly. But when routing the edge with the board Perpendicular to that I think it would be nearly impossible to flex an 8 or 10 inch wide piece of wood that is 8 feet long to get a matching cut to interlock with the first piece.

Additionally with the top being concave, the plate area lower than either end, I could set me up for a situation where the wood could bind and get thrown back off the table so it would risk injury.

Personally I feel if I am paying for a Router Top that is supposed to be flat, I expect it to be a bit closer than what it is.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

I'd be surprised if a 4/100ths inch discrepancy would have any effect on the mass of an 8' x 8" board, but that doesn't mean that you're wrong in your expectancy of accuracy from a $250 top.


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## Al B Thayer (Jun 2, 2014)

NiceG316 said:


> I have been following this thread and thinking this through a bit, especially as I am finishing up my new router table. The critical point of the router table is the plate (or if your not using one, the area immediately around the router bit). As long as the table is flat enough to let your work pieces travel flat on the plate, through the bit, unimpeded, the table is probably flat enough.
> 
> I think this goes in line with how I set my machines up, which I know some of you will cringe. I don't use feelers, dial indicators, or any other high precision measuring tool, except for a good machinist square and a good straight edge. I get the tool dialed in as close as I am able to visually see (if I am squaring up a fence to table, and I don't see any light, its square). Then I run several tests pieces through the machines. If the test pieces come out square and to the correct dimensions, I am done. I used this same process when I tuned up my jointer this past weekend.
> 
> If I was doing metal working, this setup procedure probably wouldn't be acceptable, but then the tolerances of metal working require a far high degree of precision. Since wood is a constantly changing medium, even with a perfectly dialed in machine, you will never get that degree of precision with it.


I have to agree with you on the set ups using dial indicators. While I like to be accurate. Some just take the thousandths too seriously. I might use them when I set jointer knives but that's about it. 

Al


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## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

Dale, did you ask Rockler what their spec's for the table are? Runs in my mind from several threads over the last couple of years, that 25-30 thousandths may be entirely within spec.

That said I'd rather see convex than concave. Also I think the plate being flat or slightly convex is more important than the rest of the table. Just my .02 worth. I know mine is slightly bowed(convex) but doesn't cause me any issues. Never measured it though, so can't give you a number.

I'd think at 30-40 thousandths it should be very easy to pull it flat _*if*_ there is good support under it. Without proper support it will be tough to keep anything composite flat long term.


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## Dale2992 (Dec 13, 2012)

*We may be in business*

Got the third top from Rockler.

This time from right to left in front of the plate opening is only .007 and behind is .009, I am sure I can work with that small of an error.

From front to back again the center is low by .032 and by .035 on left and right respectively so will try to shim just the two centers and if I can get it to half that I will be good with it. 

In addition to the Rockler stand I have a steel support frame that is made of angle steel that is slightly bigger than the router opening. It will give me four places to shim and bring the front to back closer to flat if I need to but I think just the Rockler stand alone will do it. 

Everything else I have received from Rockler has been spot on, will keep you all posted.


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

*good news...*

That is good news, Dale.

We like to hear about good customer service that solves a client issue.

Not all suppliers would re-act the same way.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Good news Dale . 
.007 is the same thickness as two Canadian bills according to my dial gauge . That's a very small amount of error IMO.
Hopefully you can get the front to rear resolved


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## Dale2992 (Dec 13, 2012)

*I think I'll keep it*

Put everything back together, placed a piece of card stock on the front and rear center of the table to shim up the small error there and added .040 shim on the left and right. All errors noted above, after the first top, were without the top mounted to the stand by the way.

I added washers to the mounting screws under the steel frame not between frame and top) because the screw heads were so close to the same size as the holes provided for mounting.

Tightened down on the stand and Oh My What have I done...

Side error remained constant, about .037 or so but now front and rear errors were .040 or greater. So I backed off the screws until I could just move the washers, not really loose but just friction kind of fit in there but washers were movable. Now I was back to previous flatness side to side in front and rear of the plate. So I tweaked the side mounting screws by hand a little. Now I have .005 in front of the plate, .008 behind and .012 on the infeed side and .014 on the outfeed. I have not mounted a Router yet but will do so this afternoon when I get home. I am hoping the extra weight at the center of the table doesn't change anything.

Finished up the install by leveling the plate and assembling the fence. 

All in all I am pretty happy with everything and Rockler customer service was 
Excellent to say the least in making me happy with the table. 

I have it set up level with my table saw so I can use either as an added outfeed table for the whichever one I am currently using.

I wish to express my appreciation to those who provided feedback in this thread and again to Rockler Customer service.:thank_you2:


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