# New member with a question about 110 volt machine switches...



## demographic (Aug 12, 2012)

Hi, new member here.
I've been a member for a few days and have been ratching through the old posts, there's a huge amount of info on here. Work as a labour only subcontractor carpenter and till now not used a router much, just for the occasional kitchen worktop postform joint and rounding off window boards.

I'm looking for a 110 volt machine switch to go onto a home made router table. 
Ideally with a 110 volt plug to go onto a transformer or extension, the switch (green ON switch and red Off switch) and a socket to plug my Hitachi M12V2 into.

I don't know if it makes any difference but the router has electronic speed control.
Not really that bothered about No Volt release switches because I've noticed that they can stop when someone uses another powertool off the same transformer and its irritating having to switch things back on everytime it happens.


This has to pass PAT testing and be seen by the site safety inspectors so I'm not really interested in light switches converted for the job or wooden boxes with a mass of spaghetti wiring behind them.
Also it needs the yellow site voltage plugs and the socket that goes with it.
I was going to post images but I can't yet.
Might do after I've posted a bit more.

Now, its quite possible that there's a product out there that has all these fittings setup. I can't seem to find it though. Surely someone else on here has had the same needs? I've done a few searches and not found any but perhaps my search criteria wasn't upto scratch.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Your location says UK but you're looking for 110V? 
In any case over on this side of the pond...
Woodworker.com: WOODTEK ON/OFF SWITCH WITH PADDLE STOP
would seem to be what you're looking for, minus the add-on wiring?
If you are in the UK, you're looking for an Electrical Wholesale supplier, ie a trades seller.
(Look for a Seimens representative. sp?)


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

How's this one?
Amazon.com: MLCS 9072 Safety Motor Power Switch: Home Improvement


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## demographic (Aug 12, 2012)

DaninVan said:


> Your location says UK but you're looking for 110V?
> In any case over on this side of the pond...
> 
> would seem to be what you're looking for, minus the add-on wiring?
> ...


230 volt is household voltage over here. Thats usually stepped down with a transformer to 110 (well more accurately 115 volts but everyone calls it 110 for some weird reason) for any tools used on a building site.
Also instead of the fairly crap plugs on standard 230 volt UK extensions they have decent plugs that are fare more robust.

There is a way to use 230 volt tools on site but it involves residual current breakers and even then some sites just don't allow it. Plus I can't be bothered with having to have 230 volt cables in my van as well as 110 volt ones. 



DaninVan said:


> How's this one?


The switch looks great, part of what I want, but it looks like I will have to have a look in the local electrical stockists for the rest.
I'm not so worried about wiring it up myself because, lets face it it can't be rocket science but my only concern is that the completed electrical setup looks professional. Otherwise the site agents and safety inspectors (who DO look at these things) might get arsey.

In case anyone was wondering where the links in their quotes went to, I had to remove them because the forum software spat the dummy and considered them to be part of my posts, as I haven't done my ten posts yet I am barred from posting links, that seems to include links in other peoples posts. Sorry bout that bit, I think I have another eight posts yet.

By the way, I totally understand that this policy is to reduce the spammers on a forum so I'm not stressing about it.

Thanks for the useful suggestions folks.


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Just so you know, you can not use anything with an external speed control as it will fry your routers built in controller. Please unplug your router from the switch box for any bit changes; safety first!

If you want to make life real easy you might just purchase the Skill RAS800 router table from amazon.com since it has a built in safety switch, guard and 2-1/4" dust collection port. Price is $97.


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## demographic (Aug 12, 2012)

Mike said:


> Just so you know, you can not use anything with an external speed control as it will fry your routers built in controller. Please unplug your router from the switch box for any bit changes; safety first!
> 
> If you want to make life real easy you might just purchase the Skill RAS800 router table from amazon.com since it has a built in safety switch, guard and 2-1/4" dust collection port. Price is $97.


I didn't know the part about the speed control but I wasn't planning on changing the location of the speed control anyway and being a fussy chap I always ziptie the bit change spanner to the plug, that way I can't change the bit without removing the plug first.
I do the same with grinder spanners as well.

Thanks for the info anyway as I'd rather be told something I do know than not be told something I need to know that might save my fingers.

As for the router table, looks good but by the time I've changed the plug and socket over to UK site specifications it it be too expensive, plus the postage would be a killer.
I have bought a fair few motorcycle parts from the US and generally anything that over here costs a hundred quid or more is worthwhile, as long as its not too big.
Thats quite a size to pay postage from the US on though.


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

demographic said:


> I'm looking for a 110 volt machine switch to go onto a home made router table. Ideally with a 110 volt plug to go onto a transformer or extension, the switch (green ON switch and red Off switch) and a socket to plug my Hitachi M12V2 into.


Hi n/a (I'd use your name, but you haven't put it into your profile.....)

I work in the trade in the UK so I'm aware of your issues here. I have seen the sort of socket/switch you refer to fitted onto site saws on a number of occassions in the past so you might want to take a look at spares for Metabo and Scheppach site saws (sorry, don't know the model). Failing that it might be a case of building your own with a BS.4343/CEE type 17 3-pin 110 volt inlet, an enclosure and a DoL (direct on line) or NVR (no-voltage release) switch. The only problem with them might be getting hold of a 110 volt coil, I've seen 230 volt coils and 415 volt ones, but to date I've not a 110 volt one with CE-marking. An alternative might be to use a relay switch of appropriate capacity, but with 24 volt DC controls which would require a 110 volt AC to 24 volt DC power supply, but which would side step the 110 volt coil issue. Either solution would be a piece of cake for an electrician with electro-mechanical experience to wire up (so maybe worth smoozing the HVLP guys on site if it's that sort of job). I've recently started down the same path so we might be able to share knowledge here.



demographic said:


> I don't know if it makes any difference but the router has electronic speed control. Not really that bothered about No Volt release switches because I've noticed that they can stop when someone uses another powertool off the same transformer and its irritating having to switch things back on everytime it happens.


There's the rub - the devices you are talking about _are_ NVR switches. But, if working correctly they shouldn't kill other tools on the same transformer. What I'd be more concerned about is the switch being killed (i.e. switching itself off) as a result of power fluctuations caused by multiple users on a transformer



demographic said:


> Also it needs the yellow site voltage plugs and the socket that goes with it.


They are called BS.4343 connectors, or in Europe CEE typ 17:










but there are electrical issues to do with them. Your M12V2 is rated at 2000 watts, which means the router will need to be wired with a 32 Amp plug, not the standard 16 Amp one. You will also need an appropriate extension cable to supply power from the tranny. One thing you can't do is buy from the USA - unless you can find equipment which is CE-marked



demographic said:


> 230 volt is household voltage over here. Thats usually stepped down with a transformer to 110 (well more accurately 115 volts but everyone calls it 110 for some weird reason).....


Actually you have that completely wrong - the actual voltage +ve to -ve really is 110 volts NOT 115 volts. This is because the site transformers are centre-tapped to give +55 volts / -55 volts. In other words if you grab a single live terminal in one hand and an earth in the other you'll only get a 55 volt shock, not the full 110 volts



demographic said:


> There is a way to use 230 volt tools on site but it involves residual current breakers and even then some sites just don't allow it. Plus I can't be bothered with having to have 230 volt cables in my van as well as 110 volt ones.


The one thing I've found in the past which they are more prepared to accept is a 110 volt suupply from the transformer across the site (which is the real issue) and a step-up 110 volt to 230 volt transformer at the point of use (i.e. NO extension cables allowed). Even then your router table would need the appropriate BS.4343 250 volt (blue) connectors and a DoL starter, although they are at least an off the shelf product.

Hope the above is of use

Regards

Phil


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## demographic (Aug 12, 2012)

Phil P said:


> Hi n/a (I'd use your name, but you haven't put it into your profile.....)
> 
> I work in the trade in the UK so I'm aware of your issues here. I have seen the sort of socket/switch you refer to fitted onto site saws on a number of occassions in the past so you might want to take a look at spares for Metabo and Scheppach site saws (sorry, don't know the model). Failing that it might be a case of building your own with a BS.4343/CEE type 17 3-pin 110 volt inlet, an enclosure and a DoL (direct on line) or NVR (no-voltage release) switch. The only problem with them might be getting hold of a 110 volt coil, I've seen 230 volt coils and 415 volt ones, but to date I've not a 110 volt one with CE-marking. An alternative might be to use a relay switch of appropriate capacity, but with 24 volt DC controls which would require a 110 volt AC to 24 volt DC power supply, but which would side step the 110 volt coil issue. Either solution would be a piece of cake for an electrician with electro-mechanical experience to wire up (so maybe worth smoozing the HVLP guys on site if it's that sort of job). I've recently started down the same path so we might be able to share knowledge here.
> 
> ...


Maybe I didn't put it across well but I was meaning that the tool with the NVR was the one that stopped, This has only been a problem with a Bosch tablesaw when someone elsa was using a crosscut sawbut thats the only thing on site I have used with a NVR switch so far, whatever, it was bloody irritating and I don't want it happening with a router




Phil P said:


> They are called BS.4343 connectors, or in Europe CEE typ 17:


Yes, that was the exact image I was attempting to link to in my first post, only to be told "Computer says NO" and having to modify my post accordingly.





Phil P said:


> but there are electrical issues to do with them. Your M12V2 is rated at 2000 watts, which means the router will need to be wired with a 32 Amp plug, not the standard 16 Amp one. You will also need an appropriate extension cable to supply power from the tranny. One thing you can't do is buy from the USA - unless you can find equipment which is CE-marked


Not quite, the normal UK mains power version is 2000 watts, the 110 volt version that I have is 1570 watts and the plug that comes on it as standard is the smaller size yellow 16 amp plug, not the massive 32 amp things that I usually see on the main site splitters.




Phil P said:


> Actually you have that completely wrong - the actual voltage +ve to -ve really is 110 volts NOT 115 volts. This is because the site transformers are centre-tapped to give +55 volts / -55 volts. In other words if you grab a single live terminal in one hand and an earth in the other you'll only get a 55 volt shock, not the full 110 volts


Ahh, fair enough, I keep seeing things advertised as so many different voltages that it must have baffled me.




Phil P said:


> The one thing I've found in the past which they are more prepared to accept is a 110 volt supply from the transformer across the site (which is the real issue) and a step-up-transformer at the point of use (i.e. NO extension cables allowed). Even then your router table would need the appropriate BS.4343 250 volt (blue) connectors and a DoL starter, although they are at least an off the shelf product.
> 
> Hope the above is of use
> 
> ...


I'm not buying another router in normal UK house voltage, I already have two good quality routers in 110 volt (UK site voltage) and its just not happening, plus a step up transformer is the last thing I need. I already have a step down transformer to get voltage to 110 on the odd site that has 220 volt sockets, no way on earth am I going to take it from a plug, step it down to 110 wih a transformer, take that voltage across site with 110 volt extensions than use a step up transformer at the other end. As it is I'm sick of the sight of the 110 volt transformer but I need it and don't like carrying it if I can avoid it so a step up transformer is a step too far.

All the same, there's some very good info in your post, its just that after carrying a step down transformer across site too many times I'm not getting a step up transformer plus extra powertools. I'd rather just use the tool without a table and clamp it to my saw stools instead.


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Hi n/a



demographic said:


> Maybe I didn't put it across well but I was meaning that the tool with the NVR was the one that stopped, This has only been a problem with a Bosch tablesaw when someone elsa was using a crosscut sawbut thats the only thing on site I have used with a NVR switch so far, whatever, it was bloody irritating and I don't want it happening with a router


You've just confirmed what I stated above! The issue is that if too great a load is placed on the transformer, especially over long or multiple cable extensions the voltage at the tool drops. When that happens an NVR switch will behave in exactly the same way it does when there is a complete power outage and the NVR (which is really only an electro-magnetic relay switch) will disconnect, dropping the power. It doesn't matter if you have an NVR or an RCD to protect the circuit - the result is identical. And when the site safety guy is asking for a safety switch he is talking about an NVR switch. The only way to avoid this is to have the router/table combo on a dedicated transformer with no other tools plugged-into it - even then variations in load on the mains supply cable might cause problems from time to time. There is no other solution available which meets site regs so far as I can see



demographic said:


> > ...but there are electrical issues to do with them. Your M12V2 is rated at 2000 watts, which means the router will need to be wired with a 32 Amp plug, not the standard 16 Amp one...
> 
> 
> Not quite, the normal UK mains power version is 2000 watts, the 110 volt version that I have is 1570 watts and the plug that comes on it as standard is the smaller size yellow 16 amp plug, not the massive 32 amp things that I usually see on the main site splitters.


I stand corrected. My own experience with deWalts (DW625) and Trends (T10/T11) is that their 110 volt models come with the full 2000 watt motors which require a 32 Amp plug. I've found that solid surface work is a bit heavy going with lower-powered routers



demographic said:


> > The one thing I've found in the past which they are more prepared to accept is a 110 volt supply from the transformer across the site (which is the real issue) and a step-up-transformer at the point of use (i.e. NO extension cables allowed). Even then your router table would need the appropriate BS.4343 250 volt (blue) connectors and a DoL starter, although they are at least an off the shelf product.
> 
> 
> I'm not buying another router in normal UK house voltage, I already have two good quality routers in 110 volt (UK site voltage) and its just not happening, plus a step up transformer is the last thing I need.


I agree that when you have to use them they are a royal PIA, BUT without going down that route you will find locating a 110 volt CE-compliant NVR switch somewhat difficult (I've dead-ended on another possible this morning)



demographic said:


> I'd rather just use the tool without a table and clamp it to my saw stools instead.


In which case the site safety guy will bounce you if he sees it on the grounds that it isn't safe working practice, without a doubt...... and another reason why I dislike working on jobs run by the likes of Carillion!

I have to ask what it is that absolutely needs a router table, though

Regards 

Phil


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

*Bogglement* ....it's amazing the Olympic sites even got built! 
You Brits have had the reputation of over engineering (not in a good way; think Byzantine)
Since the Industrial Revolution.


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## demographic (Aug 12, 2012)

Phil P said:


> In which case the site safety guy will bounce you if he sees it omn the grounds that it isn't safe working practice, without a doubt...... and another reason why I dislike working on jobs run by the likes of Carillion!
> 
> I have to ask what it is that absolutely needs a router table, though
> 
> ...


Maybe I should have said that I would be clamping the workpiece to the sawstools, not the router. My mistake.

You know the score, its like vans. The smaller the jobs you usually do the bigger the van you need. Seems that the smaller part you want to rout the more likely you are to want a router table.
Plus, at home I have very little space thats not taken up by motorbikes and tools for bikes. Sometimes having something like a router table setup means I get to use the space on site for my own things. 
During lunch time obviously...

I know what you mean by Carillion jobs, you could add Costains, and Balfour Beatty to that list also.

Hardhat, boots, vizzy vest I'm used to. Ear muffs and drop down visor on my hard hat are very handy for when using loud powertools that fire dust and chippings about and a dust mask just makes sense sometimes also but some of those sites stipulate that I walk about site with safety specs on and gloves on all the time.
I can't work out how they think using powertools (ripsaws, routers, powerplaners and so on) wearing gloves is safer. 
I was always taught specifically NOT to wear gloves whilst operating spinning machinery that could pull my hand into it if the glove got caught.

Sorry folks, I have de-railed my own thread.

Anyway, it looks like I'll be trying out the Grizzly Products paddle switch and I'll see how I get on.


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

DaninVan said:


> *Bogglement* ....it's amazing the Olympic sites even got built!


Really, Dan? On time if not on budget. We also have a fairly low accident rate in one of the more dangerous areas of endeavour (cinstruction).

The CEE typ 17 (BS.4343) electrical stuff originates from Germany - it locks together and is difficult to pull apart accidentally. It is also shower proof (completely waterproof versions are available where required) so has a lot going for it over the standard North American connectors, at least in a construction environment. 

An NVR starter should be fitted to almost any static machine you ever use on grounds of safety - then if the power goes off for whatever reason (not an uncommon ocurrence in site-based work) the machine won't start up of its' own accord when power is restored. 

Site work in the UK is different to how it's done in the USA - here a lot less is manufactured on site and a lot more is built in the workshop. That, and the fact that our buildings are smaller than those in North America, means that there often isn't space to set-up table saws, planers, radial arm saws, etc. I tend to carry my SCMS and sometimes a table saw, but you don't see planers that much at all - easier to ring the shop and get someone else to plane-up material for you a lot of the time.

The CE bit is only really the same as UL-compliance in the USA. Possibly one difference is that if your kit isn't CE-marked (and often PAT tested - electrical safety test done every 3 to 12 months depending on who your main contractor is) and you have an accident there are insurance issues - something our insurance industry has learned from your litigious southern neighbours

Regards

Phil


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

"On time if not on budget"
When was the last time an Olympic circus was assembled on budget?
But I digress; I was referring to the seemingly 'Rube Goldberg' like approach to electricity. Why would the subject of a subtrade having to step up or down even occur? The sub tells the General Cont., or the Elect. Cont., what he needs, when and where and that should be a done deal.
Any discussion here about whether power is 110 or 120 is simply academic. The RMS varies slightly, depending on time of day and where you are. Not to mention local conditions such as long subfeeds. 
The only other condition in industrial/ commercial situations is whether the higher voltage is 208 3ph, or 220 -240V 2 ph...once again no one really cares where in that range it actually is.


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## demographic (Aug 12, 2012)

DaninVan said:


> Why would the subject of a subtrade having to step up or down even occur? The sub tells the General Cont., or the Elect. Cont., what he needs, when and where and that should be a done deal.


Whilst thats a nice ideal to work to, in reality its not always like that. 
We carry a step down transformer in the van for the many sites where there's not enough transformers. Yeah we can whine like a jet turbine to the main contractors about needing better power but in the meantime we won't be making money.

Most sites have it all setup properly but even on those when it gets to the end of the job all the huge transformers get returned to the yard and we end up using the mains voltage and stepping it down ourselves.

Every site is different, sometimes (as little as possible) I also work in peoples homes on my own jobs and as all my corded tools are 110 I have to supply the transformer. The homeowner won't have one, thats for sure.
Personally I'd rather be stabbed in the eye with a thistle than do domestic work but sometimes its just got to be done to keep the roof over my own head.

We can't afford to faff about waiting for other people to get their stuff together when we are on pricework, on day rate like the fully employed workers we could amble about and not care how long it takes management to get sorted.

As mentioned above, the yellow 110 volt plugs save time and money by not pulling apart constantly and they are better protected against the weather.

Anyway, thanks for the useful input folks. I'll sort something out now.


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

This is what I use. Not sure if it would be satisfactory for what you want or not. I like it because you don't have to reach for and on/off switch if you need it shut off 'now'. Nice too, if something startles you and you step back the machine gets shut off rather than keeps on running - safety, you know. Yeah, I forget and move my foot off it once in awhile when I don't want to, but all in all I really like it. 
They have another version, where you step on for power, and step on it again to shut it off - I don't care for that version at all, not near as safe to my mind.
Foot Switch - Save on this Momentary Power Foot Switch


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Hi Dan



DaninVan said:


> I was referring to the seemingly 'Rube Goldberg' like approach to electricity. Why would the subject of a subtrade having to step up or down even occur? The sub tells the General Cont., or the Elect. Cont., what he needs, when and where and that should be a done deal.


Well, Scott pretty much covered it. That "Rube Goldberg" approach is how it's done here, like it or not. Another problem is that there are still some machines out there which can't be obtained, CE-marked, in 110 volt (mainly tools which aren't available in the USA, either) and for those the only acceptable way to proceed is step down at the feed, transmission to point of use at 110 volt, then step-up. In mainland Europe they use 230 volt _*providing*_ that the extension cables are fitted with a hard-wired RCD - and all power tools must run on extension cables. The same rules should apply here under EU harmonisation rules, but....... It's actually the insurance companies who seem to be behind the use of 110 volts for site work (so far as I can tell there is no law mandating it's use _except_ on railway and tunnel works). It's a PIA when you start buying power tools, but once you've built-up a 110 volt kit it's no problem to maintain it - prices are similar to 230 volt tools and 90% of the tools you'll ever need are available in 110 volt form (but you don'yt get the cheap Chinese tools) - it's just the aggrevation of having to lug around a transformer at job's end and when doing domestic/occupied installs



DaninVan said:


> The only other condition in industrial/ commercial situations is whether the higher voltage is 208 3ph, or 220 -240V 2 ph...once again no one really cares where in that range it actually is.


Not here, Dan! In Europe 3-phase is 380 volts 50Hz, in the UK it's 415 volts 50Hz (so averaged out at around 400 volts) and on phase to earth that's about 230 volts, our standard ring main voltage. a lot higher than 55 volts live to earth that you get from a site supply

Regards

Phil


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

O...M...G....:0
Seriously, I'm sitting here with my jaw dropped around my knees. 
Back in the 50's the Province of Quebec was the only place in Canada that was 50Hz; if I'm not mistaken, the only place in N. America. 
On the weatherproof cord ends thing, Hubbell (and others) have been offering similar gear for at least 40 years, that I'm aware of. I can't say if it's mandatory, but I'd be surprised if it was. Hubbell has pretty much taken over the competition; Bryant is now a subsidiary company.
This is all I could find at the Worksafe BC (Workers Comp.) site. It seems a little thin on content compared to you guys.
http://www2.worksafebc.com/i/manufacturing/Toolbox/PDFs/MTG09-004-PowerToolsCords.pdf


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## demographic (Aug 12, 2012)

Phil P said:


> it's just the aggrevation of having to lug around a transformer at job's end and when doing domestic/occupied installs


The bloke who manufactures a lightweight 3 or so KVA 110 volt transformer (with LED light to show its got power) will make a hell of a lot of money
He can then go onto provide extension leads where the plugs don't spin round when you pull the cable out (I know those exist already cos I have one) AND a LED light by the sockets so you know when its got feed as well.

I don't know how many times I've realised that I don't have power to a tool and not known exactly where the fault was or which breaker had tripped on a line of extensions and splitters but its quite a few.


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Hi dan



DaninVan said:


> O...M...G....:0
> Seriously, I'm sitting here with my jaw dropped around my knees.
> Back in the 50's the Province of Quebec was the only place in Canada that was 50Hz; if I'm not mistaken, the only place in N. America.


Well, all of Western Europe and the Soviat Union are on 50Hz, as is most of Africa, India and Australia. Japan is half and half 50Hz/60Hz. In fact more of the world is on 50Hz than 60hz as this map shows 

The BS.4343/CEE typ 17 weren't much used in the UK until the 1990s - we had our own weatherproof 3- to 5-pin plugs called, I believe, "Walsall plugs". They weren't as good as the current standard IMHO. With European harmonisation the CEE typ 17 connector (which dates back to the 1960s) has become all-pervasive here, you even see massive versions on railway locomotives. In German workshops I've often seen static machines such as industrial spindle moulders (shapers) connected to the mains using 32 Amp 3-phase CEE typ 17s (red, 5-pin) and when a machine isn't in use it simply gets unplugged and moved into a corner on a pallet truck to make room for something else (biggest corded tools in the world?). Another plus of these connectors is that the colour tells you the voltage, e.g. red = 400volts (generally 3-phase), blue = 230 volt (ring main), yellow = 110 volt (site), etc with other colours used for low voltages, etc. There are different pin orientations (so you can connect different frequencies, add a neutral as well as an earth, etc) and some versions meant for semi-permanent connection come with a twist lock. Very efficient and logical. Of course, it started out as a German standard.....



demographic said:


> The bloke who manufactures a lightweight 3 or so KVA 110 volt transformer (with LED light to show its got power) will make a hell of a lot of money


Agreed!



demographic said:


> He can then go onto provide extension leads where the plugs don't spin round when you pull the cable out (I know those exist already cos I have one) AND a LED light by the sockets so you know when its got feed as well.


The LED light in the socket I'm part way towards - my cable drums both have LEDs to show whether or not they are live - although they do lack the anti-spin feature

Regards

Phil


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