# Kitchen countertop height



## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Argh.

I built the kitchen cabinets. Plan was a countertop of wood. That was the plan.

After I started building the wood stove hearths from scrap marble and granite, she liked it so well, that's how she wants her kitchen countertops. East enough right? Just a little more work...

She is only 5 foot tall. The with the underlayment of 3/4 inch plywood, the wood would have brought the countertop height up 3/4", being up at a standard 36". The stone is 1-1/4"... She's thinking that will be too tall for her (36-1/2). She wants that lowered. She likes the height as it is now, with the underlayment.

I'm thinking that That's still do-able, if I cut an inch off the bottom of these cabinets. It would bring the toe-kicks down from 4" to 3", but I always thought of toe-kicks as wasted space anyways right? Besides, a good excuse to play with that new sliding table... Set the fence squire. Set the stop to the new height. Make the cuts on all the cabinet boxes.

Sharon suggested I just used 1/4 ply for underlayment... but I told her that just wouldn't be strong enough for the weight of the stone and preventing the mortar from cracking.

I mentioned this when my saw was shipping... in that thread. Stick mentioned using toe-kick jacks... Platform steps/lifts that pull-out from the toe-kick. Well, those are okay to get into uppers, but still the issue is that the counter is too high for her. She doesn't want to have steps everywhere or when she is doing dishes. And I have a 3 step for her to get into the to-ceiling uppers. (I thought about a library ladder on rails, but that has wasted space.)

This post? Just confirming that I'm going about this smartly. You never know that there might be someone's else's perspective that I haven't thought about.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

I've lost track here, Mike. Are you using tile on the floor, or hardwood?
What'e the existing subfloor, plywood or old shiplap?
If it's plywood, it's likely 5/8" T&G(?).


If you're going with porcelain floor tile:
May i suggest simply rescrewing it...or renail it with ringnails.
Then prime the whole floor area with polymer bonding solution, let it dry then lay out Med. or Heavywt. expanded metal lath...available from either a stucco supplier or tile wholesaler...over the whole area, stapling it to the subloor. 
Don't bother nailing it as the thinset stucco is going to bond that sucker to the plywood like dried you-know-what to a diaper.
Either laydown a 3/8" thich layer of thinset, screeding it absolutely flat, or slightly thicker and actually set your tile at the same time. If I'm doing it myself I prefer to do the lath layer first, then do the thinset tile laying as a separate step, after the first layer has set for a couple of days. _Your floor will be bombproof, guaranteed!_
Our whole mainfloor was done this way about 10 years ago, no floor noises, no cracks; like I said bombproof.
Metal Lath Install with Scratch Coat (Flo-Rida ft. Akon - Who Dat Girl) - YouTube


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## Marco (Feb 21, 2009)

Assuming that there are not any nails- staples or metal to cut through.... it will work with no sparks.


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Yes, you lost track. Bottom kitchen cabinets. I've always built to 34-1/2 high. If there was for any top I would put 3/4" cdx on top of those and which would give if a strong, level surface to attach a countertop to... or to cover with laminant.

This countertop was to be 1x12 t&g, stained and finished. So with the cdx and the t&g it would have finished out at 36" high off the floor.

Now she likes the job I did with the stone scraps which are random cut pieces of marble and granite about 1-1/4 inch thick. Actually, I've scavenged a bunch oh black granite with blueish gray snowflake looking flecks... I was going to use a synthetic stone adhesive, so I could bond it straight to the cdx... instead of using hardy board and traditional thinset... That's what we did when we were setting a solid slab top... And these are "thick" stones, even though I'm cutting them down into tiles. Even tough that would save 1/4" or so without the hardy board, the finished height of the kitchen counter will still be too tall for her.

So I figured I could undo all the cabinets, that I just got mounted and leveled. And cut about an inch from the bottoms. There shouldn't be nails, but if they are, they are just aluminum finish nails. I could look, but it's not like I can find them with a magnetic stud finder. (Marco) 16 and 18 gauge aluminum finish nails only make dull sparks, but don't tear your carbide up. But you still don't want to do that more than a few times. (I still cringe.)

A finish blade should do okay... but I don't think I want to chance using my scorer (just by the off chance)... So I was going to tape them and score the veneer with a knife before cutting them.

She's thinking if I just put some 1/4" cdx and bonded to that...That that would lower it enough. You know, I've done some bathroom vanities with 1/4 hardy directly on the vanity... and it's not like a countertop. When you can't reach something in a kitchen, I want to be able to stand on the counter and not have ill effects.

I guess I could go with 1/4-3/8" cdx and hardy glued and screwed... But that is only saving 1/4" to 3/8"... See now? LOL.

I'm figuring if I cut off 1" from the bottoms, then I will save in the kick panels. I usually make them at 4-3/4" in the boxes, so the the bottom of the face rails are 4" on the floor and the top of a 3/4" bottom shelf come even with the top edge of the rail. This way, there will be a 3" toe-kick with a 3-3/4 toe-kick panel. I can then use standard 1x4's and not have to cut them down at all. I'd still have to trim the toe-kick skins. But I'll go further. (Less stock)


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

MAFoElffen said:


> Yes, you lost track...


Could be me.

Current projects:

- Wood stove and hearths.

- Kitchen Cabinets.

- Ramping up to change out some windows in a ceiling "space.' (not skylights, but not a loft... open ceiling.)

- Still waiting for the go for a finish job installing moulding.

- Drawing up plans for a patio and cover.

- Drawing up plans for a carport.

- Drawing up plans for revised parts for my new saw. New suspended overhead crown (from ceiling). New riving knives (different design). New end plate for my crosscut fence extension so it can support material better. Ordering a Uni-T-Fence to convert for use on my saw. Plans already done for a conversion plate for my crosscut fence mounts to be about to use standard aluminum extrusions... but also researching converting a Felder crosscut fence and mounts.)

- *** Got some cedar to cut up some parts to create a "lighthouse kit" for a local wood worker. It's going to be 8 sided, about 3 feet tall and the sides are going to be about 5-1/2" each side at the base. He wants 3. He will put them together, paint and resale to his customers. I want his business. I have no idea how much I'm going to charge him yet. It was going to be in trade for a scroll saw... I waited until I got this new saw to do it. In the meantime, he sold the scroll saw.

- Then I have 2 Lunix Server hardware projects, testing a Lunix Server and Desktop Edition dev cycle. Project leader for an opensource software project... Actually, that one, I'm the only one one the project, so I am the writer, admin and chief bottle washer.

I start listing this off and Sharon's eye's just glaze over.


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## Semipro (Mar 22, 2013)

Mike
Why not inset 3/4 ply in the top each cabinet if you had not build the cabinets already I would tongue and groove in , now just pocket holes and glue, then apply 1/4 over top that gives you 1" base but you only lose a 1/4 in height ( just saying ) but not sure i have your project in total concept


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## greenacres2 (Dec 23, 2011)

Semipro said:


> Mike
> Why not inset 3/4 ply in the top each cabinet if you had not build the cabinets already I would tongue and groove in , now just pocket holes and glue, then apply 1/4 over top that gives you 1" base but you only lose a 1/4 in height ( just saying ) but not sure i have your project in total concept


When I read Mike's post, my first thought was a web frame in the top of the cabinets with 1/4" over the top--but the 3/4" ply sounds even sturdier to stand on. Is there enough room to screw 3/4" x 3/4" cleats on the inside of each cabinet to res 3/4" or 1/2" ply on for insurance?
earl


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## mgmine (Jan 16, 2012)

Normal cupboards are 34 1/2" from the floor. You can fudge it a little but if they are too short then a dishwasher won't fit under the counter and the stove will stick up too high. Another thing is where your drain comes out from the wall. It may be too high for you to lower your cabinets. Don't forget a garbage disposal hangs low and you need to hook a trap up.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Yes, I did lose track. However, having said that, the same application-system applies to countertops of, tile, marble, concrete or stone tile.
The finished product is virtually uncrackable, and waterproof.
Around the sink, I'd be really tempted to pre-treat the plywood with S1 epoxy,after the cutouts are done of course.


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

mgmine said:


> Normal cupboards are 34 1/2" from the floor. You can fudge it a little but if they are too short then a dishwasher won't fit under the counter and the stove will stick up too high. Another thing is where your drain comes out from the wall. It may be too high for you to lower your cabinets. Don't forget a garbage disposal hangs low and you need to hook a trap up.


I already noted 34-1/2"... Remember, I used to do this for a living. (Still do/semi-retired) So I am familiar and I have done a few. (Custom cabinets as well as stock installs).

That's the second time someone has mentioned a dishwasher... On a bottom cabinet box the bottom shelf is normally 3/4" thick, with the bottom at 4-3/4", the top of that at 5-1/2" and the top edge of the bottom rail lined up with the top edge of that shelf. That's just reference. So, under that bottom shelf, is the toe kick cutout... and dead space. So if you cut an inch out there, it would not affect the dimensions inside the box... for instance where a dishwasher might go... which we do not have a dishwasher, but who knows, someone down the line might want one, right? 

The plumbing is fine and adjustments up and down are workable within specs. Your concerns on that were confusing though... After cutting down a cabinet, the concerns would be that the trap was too high, instead of low... But in my case is still not a worry.

Next, no worries on the stove and oven. They are already installed in the island I built, already installed. This I am talking about now is the wall/floor boxes.

Actually, putting the 3/4 inch ply inside the top edge would have been a great idea... If I hadn't built my boxes with a top frame. Years of doing these, I have this standing method of building a frame in the tops of 1"x4"... so that 3/4" is already there. Just easier for me doing installs to actually have some meat there to screw too (in the tops of boxes). Also stronger and keeps things square. I guess I could cut these out and replace with 3/4 ply, seal, then bond the stone directly to that...

Draw-backs to that method- First is that when you build boxes, the faces (rails and stiles) are planned to be wider than the boxes. You do this on purpose, so that if you have anything that is not perfectly inline, square or parallel, you have some room for adjustment. So from box to box, you would still have some voids between them. 

The boxes are mounted to the wall and connect to each other at the faces. Plywood over the top then connects them all together again. The top is usually screwed from underneath through that ply... or with mine, if needed, straight through the top frame. If I do away with the ply, I'm trying to bond stone, not lay on a single top, right?

I don't know... I guess I could just cut off 1/2" -AND- screw on 1/4 ply. Glue (construction adhesive) and screw 1/4"hardy board... I was worrying that that might not be strong enough. But glued together would add "some" strength. Then, 1-1/4" stone and thinset is not silly putty. I'm thinking that would put the height at just below 36", now enough off the toe-kick that it is visually different from the island across from it and may be strong enough. 

The plus would be that the bond would be stronger. The drawback to that is that I then would have to add a stone edge to the counter, instead of the planned hardwood wood trim to tie it all together. I would have nothing along the edge of that to nail to...


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## Knothead47 (Feb 10, 2010)

My daughter is just under 5 ft. and gets along OK with standard cabinets and countertops. If you fudge, as mentioned, things with appliances can get real funky. Keep in mind if you sell the house and the folks are tall, the cabinets will kill the sale.


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## Harrison67 (May 30, 2012)

If it's the last house you'll ever buy, do it any way you think best.
I'm 6'2", and standard cabinet height is too short for me. Kills my back when I'm doing dishes, but it's just fine for the Wife. 

This is my last house, so I customize everything.:laugh:


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## gmercer_48083 (Jul 18, 2012)

*Counter height dillema*

Marble & Granite Weight CalculationMike, I looked at your hearth, very nice. I think cutting the 1" off your toe kicks is a reasonable option as long as you are not ever planning to ever build up the floor for future floor renovation in the future. Another thing you may not have considered is a mosaic counter is harder to clean if the joints are not water tight and smooth. Granite that thick weighs about 20 lbs per square foot. Check out the link to calculate the weight. Can you insert steel under the top to support a thin plywood underlay for the stonework? Something to think about.


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Thanks. That puts the granite for each hearth at about 200 lbs each and for the counter at about 550 pounds...


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## Willway (Aug 16, 2012)

Mike I have to agree with Gary. Metal would work great. Excellent application for "Unistrut", or some other strut channel product. I didn't know it, but HD has Unistrut and some fittings.


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## karenbill (Nov 14, 2012)

Commonality put aside, 3-feet is typically the optimal and most ergonomic height for a kitchen counter. It may not be the best for a specific task, but it is the best overall compromise for the majority of tasks done in the kitchen.

TheRTAStore.com


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