# Collaborative Project...who wants to participate...?



## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

Maybe this is in the wrong area...Moderators feel free to relocate.

Ladies and gentlemen...I have an idea prompted by a recent discussion...Let's collaborate on the topic "HOW TO SELECT ROUTER BITS"... If this has already been done, by all means respond with a link and I can put this to bed...thanks in advance for reading...

Here's what I'm thinking...gather a small number of like-minded individuals that believe in "HOW TO..." rather than "WHAT..." In other words, let's create something that tells a newcomer "HOW TO" make a selection of bit(s) rather than blandly responding with "BUY THIS..." At this point I'm not sure how long it will take...days/weeks...it doesn't matter...it'll be good when it's over.

1. Let's put a team together to concentrate on different aspects of making a selection of bits to start woodworking with a router...

2. The team will select the areas to be covered...the team will agree (consensus model) on what these topics should be... We will also document the "Purpose" for this project. We will submit that "Purpose" to the forum members for comments/suggestions. We might use PM's to come to consensus.

3. Each of the team members will be responsible for a particular area...for example, carbide grades, low/medium/quality of bits based on experiences, what it takes to maintain a sharp bit, criteria to consider when purchasing, places to purchase, what not to do, safety, etc...

4. Each team member who volunteers for that area will do their own research...internet, forums, magazines, etc... and summarize the results in keeping with the purpose of this project... @Stick486 and others are likely to have much of this already documented...we can take advantage of that... Again, we could do this with PM's first...

5. Each documented area will go through a "peer review" made up of all the team members and then submitted to the forum for comments/suggestions...the final will become its own thread later... This too might be better done with PM's...

I am not an expert or experienced routerologist...I am fairly new to transitioning to power equipment having been at it for only about a dozen years. But because of my life-long background at working with virtual teams I feel this would be a contribution to the forum that I can make in return for all that I have gotten from the forum.

Maybe during this process we come up with other "HOW TO..." ideas that others may want to run with. Think of it, a library of "HOW TO's" that newcomers can go to and develop questions in making their initial purchases... Remember, this is for initial purchases...it is not intended to replace other areas of the Forum... If this turns out to become a "book", so be it...

I know many of you can use your woodworking and life-experience skills and backgrounds that can make this a very useful project. Join in...this will be fun... I would be honored to work with any of you...we could also use phone calls...I'm a good note-taker :smile:

If you are interested in participating let me know and we can start the project in this thread...pick some areas that a newcomer interested in making an initial bit purchase should consider...for example, carbide quality, profiles, customer service, USA vs import, manufacturers of bits (good and bad), etc...

For this initial interest-gathering/beginning, use 3-5 word phrases for suggestions...there is no right or wrong...all are likely to be included in the final product. Some will be consolidated for reading ease. Others can become a different "HOW TO..."

Once gathered I will submit back to the Forum with an initial outline...by then the team will likely be comprised by the member who made the suggestion. I will put a name to the area and post. Some members may choose to collaborate on one specific area. You can then shoot holes in it as you wish... Don't worry about making a suggestion if you don't want to be responsible for that area...somebody will jump in, I'm sure.

Ready for this challenge...?


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Can they be trusted with sharp objects?


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

DaninVan said:


> Can they be trusted with sharp objects?



All team members will first be certified as to the proper use and safety of a phillips screwdriver...unless they are already licensed for such use.

Members with extensive experience with flat screwdrivers will automatically be eligible, however, they will then need to be certified in phillips. No exceptions...

For the safety of the other team members, and themselves, and especially during the process of arriving at consensus, no users of other similarly sharp instruments will be allowed to participate...

Gotta have some rules...:grin:


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

#1 Robertson's get a pass?


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

DaninVan said:


> #1 Robertson's get a pass?



Definitely not...! ! !

Any member professing the use of a Robertson is automatically deemed ineligible...even those that were in the top 5% of their "Robertson Class of Pointy Stuff" would need more extensive training. Project budget will not allow for the additional expenses for that level of training.

Since it's important for any member to not feel discriminated against, their application for team membership will be considered if they denounce that Satan's spirit is in the screwdriver. There can be no "Devil made me do it" excuses...


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

*Choosing Woodworking Equipment,Tools & Machinery*


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

As any woodworker/carpenter/construction guy knows. You can't use "do I need it?" as a criteria for buying a new tool. Whether or not you'll even ever use it is besides the point! For all you confused people out there, I will give you the listed reasons for buying a new tool straight from "The Man Bible" Chapter 35 Section 72 Subsection D Paragraph 23 states:

*You simply buy a new tool because:
a) It's there
b) You can*

I hope this has cleared up any questions any of you may have for buying new tools, and hopefully relieve some of the guilty feelings you may have about purchasing that new tool with the money you should have spent on a new dishwasher for your wife.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Nickp said:


> All team members will first be certified as to the proper use and safety of a phillips screwdriver...unless they are already licensed for such use.
> 
> Members with extensive experience with flat screwdrivers will automatically be eligible, however, they will then need to be certified in phillips. No exceptions...
> 
> ...


anyone that uses a flat screwdriver for a any purpose other than a prybar or chisel needs to be disqualified...


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

DaninVan said:


> #1 Robertson's get a pass?


neither do #'s 0, 2, 3 or 4...

you take this PDF up there w/ you and hide it..

.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Here in Canada flat screwdrivers are only used for prybars these days. The reason Robertson invented his screw drive system was because he stuck a flat screwdriver in his hand during a demonstration while he was working for Henry Ford (the #1 Henry). Phillips are only used when driving screws that come with things made somewhere other than Canada. Our hardware stores have bins of square drive screws like yours have bins of nails. No special permits are needed when using square drive screw drivers. They are pretty hard to hurt yourself with.

I couldn't resist saying that Nick. I think it is a great idea to determine what's needed and you were right in the other thread about finding out first what the user needs. But that can and should change over time whether a newbie or well seasoned. I've seen some posts from new members in the past and it was obvious that they couldn't imagine what some bits would be used for and in some cases they were pretty simple bits. One case I recall the newbie couldn't imagine what you would use a cove bit for yet it is often the bit I choose these days for edge profiling. I like the clean simple look. I started out preferring an ogee but now I tend to think it looks too busy most most of the time. 

Maybe with router bits we could put together a list of the ones we use most and describe what they can do and why we use them and maybe add some pictures of examples. That might help them figure out what type bits they would be interested in. Once we have what we think is a winning compilation it can be made into a sticky thread or added as a link into an existing sticky thread.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

@Nickp..

I ain't a team player...
but I'll bite and throw some gas on the fire...

.


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> Maybe with router bits we could *put together a list of the ones we use most and describe what they can do and why we use them and maybe add some pictures of examples.* That might help them figure out what type bits they would be interested in. Once we have what we think is a winning compilation it can be made into a sticky thread or added as a link into an existing sticky thread.



Excellent idea...I will make sure it is in the outline...maybe we can set up a poll at some point to get a read on it...thanks for adding to the project...


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

Stick486 said:


> @Nickp..
> 
> I ain't a team player...
> but I'll bite and throw some gas on the fire...
> ...


Thanks, Stick...the Rockler PDF on choosing bits has a lot of the topics I woud have wanted to cover...it is an excellent start and it could be even better if there were some experiences to go with it...for example, how to choose which of those bit categories should be purchased from whom. You've mentioned customer service, availability, return policy, etc...which are not covered in the PDF.

Can you put together a quick summary covering these things and more...? Greatly appreciated...

You don't need to narrate...just some bullet items that we can put words around later...

Thanks for adding to this...


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> No special permits are needed when using square drive screw drivers. They are pretty hard to hurt yourself with.



LMAO...I particularly enjoyed the history lesson re: Robertson screwdriver...

Having said that, it is obvious we will first need to test applicants to the project team...maybe a background check...?

For example...Are they from Canada...? Have they ever hurt themselves with a square drive screwdriver...? Do they know what a square drive screw driver is...? And how it is used...?

If they answer "Yes" to any of the above they would, of course, be disqualified...:grin: ...don't want to take any chances...LOL


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

BTW...did I mention you will be compensated for submitting ideas/input into this project...?

Yes...you will have the honor of writing up the section that you submitted. Think of it...you will be "published"...!

You will leave a legacy that will remain in the archives forever to be embedded in the minds of those who will take the advice you offered...

Can it get any more exciting...? You will forever be scribed in the annals of Routerforums history...!


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

One legitimate use for a flat screwdriver is tightening hose clamps, many of which still have a flat slot. They arealso very useful for opening a can of paint or wax. Try using a star or philips for that.

Having written a sticky on the 18 things, 10 pages long with pictures, I think this is an OK project but who knows if it will do any good. We could survey a list of brands and have everyone rate them. What would be a basic kit of high quality bits you buy individually. Say a kit of 6, another of 12 and possibly 18. This would be specific type of bit, 18 total, and then the reader could choose the quality level they like. Maybe 3 of 4 levels. Most votes wins, or judgement call by the committee.

What would be next, at least to me, would be specialty and purpose made bits. For example door sets, spiral up or down cut, slot cutters, box cutting bits, finger joint bits, rabbeting bits of various types, matched sets.

Pricing would be tough and require ongoing maintenance, so I'd skip that.

It would also need to have a primer on various router types, not brands. All the safety and other information that Stiock has gathered should be linked. It's too much for a sticky post.

Any bit we post should have a sample of the cut it makes, and it wouldn't hurt to have this all in a pdf as well as a post. Making an illustrated sticky post would require a lot of detailed layout work. I built and keep expanding my 18 things in Word, then print to a pdf so I can update it. It is easier to put illustrations in that way. A Sticky will also gradually collect comments, so after awhile, it will be annoyingly long.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Nickp said:


> Thanks, Stick...the Rockler PDF on choosing bits has a lot of the topics I woud have wanted to cover...it is an excellent start and it could be even better if there were some experiences to go with it..*.for example, how to choose which of those bit categories should be purchased from whom. You've mentioned customer service, availability, return policy, etc*...which are not covered in the PDF.
> 
> Can you put together a quick summary covering these things and more...? Greatly appreciated...
> 
> ...


but I did... (post #8)

*Choosing Woodworking Equipment,Tools & Machinery *
1st and most important, I look to the company...
evaluate their CS/TS and will they step up to the plate should there be issues...
see if they have a planned obsolesce program in force...
what will the company and their product do for me...
try to figure out if they will respect me in the morning...
no sense in buying something that can't be fixed a few years later, find repair parts for or get crap for support...

*next the product...*
quality..
availability..
will it have a long productive life...
will it do more than I need it to....
is it a good value...
will it protect my bottom line...
will it go the extra mile...
will it go obsolete or become disposable in short order...
tools and tooling that don't cut the mustard, suffer down time, hurt production and the bottom line need to left on the store shelf and avoided...
w/ trying most of the major brands and experiencing poor support/rapport from many and through the process of elimination I went w/ and favor Freud bits and tooling and Bosch routers...
*
Opinion *
Both, Bosch and Freud's CS/TS is next level outstanding...
their products have proven to be a good value...
this goes for Whiteside bits and their CS/TS also...
*
Online reviews...*
those I don't too much...
read a few too many that my VOE said other wise...
I prefer to use and abuse different brands and evaluate them myself and I pay attention at large job sites as to who has what and what, if any, issues they are having......
I think the testers should eval a tool and then put it in production mode for a few years and then do another eval..


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Nickp said:


> BTW...did I mention you will be compensated for submitting ideas/input into this project...?
> 
> Yes...you will have the honor of writing up the section that you submitted. Think of it...you will be "published"...!
> 
> ...


can I get away w/ saying ''Bite Me'' here...
your thread Nick...
you be the editor/publisher.....


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

DesertRatTom said:


> One legitimate use for a flat screwdriver is tightening hose clamps, many of which still have a flat slot. They arealso very useful for opening a can of paint or wax. Try using a star or philips for that.
> 
> Having written a sticky on the 18 things, 10 pages long with pictures, I think this is an OK project but who knows if it will do any good. We could survey a *list of brands and have everyone rate them*. What would be a *basic kit of high quality bits* you buy individually. Say a kit of 6, another of 12 and possibly 18. This would be specific type of bit, 18 total, and then the *reader could choose the quality level they like*. Maybe 3 of 4 levels. *Most votes wins, or judgement call by the committee*.
> 
> ...



Great topics, Tom, thanks...I will add your bullets (highlighted) and considerations to the initial outline (some have already been captured)...I'm hoping to have something out to you guys tomorrow/Monday ...this is already turning out to be a good turnout between Cherryville, Stick and yourself...I am in the process of writing up the "PURPOSE" of the document and will send that out for comments/suggestions sooner.

I agree about the maintenance and likely do as you suggest regarding the cost. I thought about that and wondered if ranges associated with the bits we discuss might be the answer...dunno, yet.

I have an idea about how to link to this but need to formulate better and then submit to Moderators and Admin for consideration...what has been done with yours and Stick's PDF's and writeups might fit that idea as well. Will let you know soon...


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

Stick486 said:


> can I get away w/ saying ''Bite Me'' here...
> your thread Nick...
> you be the editor/publisher.....



Nope...not a chance...LOL...

...don't you want to go down in the annals of RF history...?

If I have to do the "words" you will have to submit to countless interviews...


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

I tried to do something like this in my specialty some years ago. It got stuck for a very long time and got out of hand. We finally reduced the outline to a grid, then added on the elements separately. My feeling is that this should be pretty straight forward and I don't think it should go beyond the basic information about router bits. Otherwise we're writing a book on woodworking, something that is NOT needed and will simply swamp the project.

I'm pretty much with Stick on brands, but I think we have to go way beyond four brands, and I think the profile sample is a must for newbies. I think a general quality discussion is very appropriate--what represents quality. Hardness, brazing, shank size, longivity depending on use. KISS will be read, compllicatingthehelloutofeverydetailjotandtiddle, won't.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Nickp said:


> Nope...not a chance...LOL...
> 
> ...don't you want to go down in the annals of RF history...?
> 
> If I have to do the "words" you will have to submit to countless interviews...


darn....

interviews it is...
I like the no typing aspect...
gonna hold ya to it...


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Nickp said:


> ...don't you want to go down in the annals of RF history...?


what!?!?! and get into yet another circle argument er discussion...
no thanks...


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

DesertRatTom said:


> I tried to do something like this in my specialty some years ago. It got stuck for a very long time and got out of hand. We finally reduced the outline to a grid, then added on the elements separately. My feeling is that this should be pretty straight forward and I don't think it should go beyond the basic information about router bits. Otherwise we're writing a book on woodworking, something that is NOT needed and will simply swamp the project.
> 
> I'm pretty much with Stick on brands, but I think we have to go way beyond four brands, and I think the profile sample is a must for newbies. I think a general quality discussion is very appropriate--what represents quality. Hardness, brazing, shank size, longivity depending on use. KISS will be read, compllicatingthehelloutofeverydetailjotandtiddle won't.



Agreed...in my prior life I had the liberty of long narrative...not applicable here. Regardless how well intentioned, it will fail if it's too long or convoluted. We need to make all efforts to make it an easy read of a difficult topic. That is the challenge which is why I am reaching out to any member that may have ideas (good/bad/indifferent)...and why I want as much review as possible. I'd rather go through several iterations of review, hence, consensus model for final. (check your PM...we have started)


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

*C'mon RF'ers...*

...by now you should be able to see how easy it is to participate...

Get on your thinkin' hats and submit ideas...

It's already fun...make it more so...jump in there with both feet...


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Writing ain't fun because it's mostly edit, rewrite, rewrite again, submit for review, rewrite again. Mix up versions of text, fiddle with making tables for easy comparison. Update the tables until your fingers are beaten into submission.


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

DesertRatTom said:


> Writing ain't fun because it's mostly edit, rewrite, rewrite again, submit for review, rewrite again. Mix up versions of text, fiddle with making tables for easy comparison. Update the tables until your fingers are beaten into submission.



Thanks for the concern, Tom...I'm trying to make the project fun for the team members...collaborative projects are always fun, if you allow them to be. Having said that, there is a bit of work to make it what it needs to be. The team, as it grows, will PM, maybe conference call, get to know each other better...you know the drill. Who knows, maybe others will run with other "HOW TO's" after they see our results. Maybe I'll just keep crankin' these babies out for other subjects. I am simply advocating that responses should be geared to advising posters HOW TO buy rather than WHAT to buy and this is my way of helping to do that.

Your submissions gave you the dubious distinction of participating in that fun as a team member, should you wish to participate as such. You don't have to if you don't want...just keep feeding me ideas (like you did above) and I'll deal with it behind the scenes...that's one of the things I'm good at. I'll make you the same offer I made Stick...feed me bullets, I'll discuss them with you and others and then I'll write them up for the guide...easy, peasy...by now you should have received a PM from me with my first shot at the "PURPOSE/SCOPE" sections. Let me know by PM if you have any comments, when you get a chance...no timeline...

To make this easier, how about enticing members to participate...talk it up with friends/other members...everybody's got good ideas given the right encouragement (something this group doesn't need much of) >

Didn't you have fun writing up your "18"...? Don't you continue to feel good about the value it has to newcomers...?


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## JFPNCM (Dec 13, 2009)

I recall my first introduction to those “Robertson screws”, repairing furniture. In those days we considered them the @)))*&*)’k, Bain of our existence. Given the advent of star drives etc, I can now appreciate their place. Having acquiesced to the new norms, I abhor slots and Phillips screws with a passion.

Sorry but the above doesn’t qualify me for comments on router bits. My perspective there is I buy the best for the task and abhor packages.


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## Danman1957 (Mar 14, 2009)

I vote for Robertson screwdrivers, Philips are not as good as our Canadian Robertsons ! or if you insist, Torx is also very good ! LOL


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Danman1957 said:


> I vote for Robertson screwdrivers, Philips are not as good as our Canadian Robertsons ! or if you insist, Torx is also very good ! LOL


what about clutch drive???


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## Danman1957 (Mar 14, 2009)

Tom, I use a screwdriver type handle with a socket or the socket in my cordless drill for hose clamps. These are way better suited to the task. I use them quite a bit when I open and close the pool in Spring and fall. Many clamps and with the cordless drill it makes the task much easier.


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## Danman1957 (Mar 14, 2009)

???? ABHOR ???? WOW !!! WHERE DOES ONE FIND SUCH WORDS ? 61 YRS old and I've never heard of it before. The Router Forums is becoming a language course LOL Is it because I'm CANADIAN that I've never heard of it, or is it because except for University, the rest of my education was mostly in French.


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

Abhor...WOW... definition = *to regard with extreme repugnance or aversion; detest utterly; loathe; abominate.*

I can honestly say I could never describe my relationship with any of my tools in that way...

I find myself suddenly starting to fee sorry for those poor screwdrivers...


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## thomas1389 (Jan 4, 2012)

Danman1957 said:


> ???? ABHOR ???? WOW !!! WHERE DOES ONE FIND SUCH WORDS ? 61 YRS old and I've never heard of it before. The Router Forums is becoming a language course LOL Is it because I'm CANADIAN that I've never heard of it, or is it because except for University, the rest of my education was mostly in French.


Dan: abhor, to detest utterly. Abhorrent, hateful or disgusting. These are words whose original use came from landscapers in the northeast U.S. Primarily around the Boston area. It seems that these fellows loved most of their tasks but disliked very much the erection of rose arbours, which were a sought-after addition in the early years. they expressed their dislike by cursing the arbour and in the dialect of the region this word came out as Abba (sounding much like the landscaper on This Old House) Eventually, this word morphed from the physical object to a feeling. One of disgust and hatefulness. so you have Abba...abbor...and then abhor, which is the word today. As a lot of the work done in the area was for an affluent, educated group the word was thought to be that of an educated person. It is also used here in Canada and is common to those of grammatical bent, as in the U.S.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

I got through high school English classes by reading heavily during summer, then turning in 30-40 book reports during the year. Read many British Manners novels, in which such words were common. So I know the word, but have used it maybe 3-4 times in my life, despite having been a writer (non fiction) for decades. It's a great word and has some real political possibilities these days. 

Back to the topic. If you were going to be starting anew, which 10 bits would you want in your collection?

Maybe I'll start a new topic for a survey to help this project along...


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

DesertRatTom said:


> I got through high school English classes by reading heavily during summer, then turning in 30-40 book reports during the year. Read many British Manners novels, in which such words were common. So I know the word, but have used it maybe 3-4 times in my life, despite having been a writer (non fiction) for decades. It's a great word and has some real political possibilities these days.
> 
> Back to the topic. If you were going to be starting anew, which 10 bits would you want in your collection?
> 
> Maybe I'll start a new topic for a survey to help this project along...



Thanks, Tom...but would you mind waiting until I finish all the survey questions that I have in mind...?


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

@DesertRatTom

Ok, Tom...you win...looks like you want to run with the project so please proceed as you wish.

I am relinquishing the project to you...best success, let me know if you need anything...


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Nickp said:


> @DesertRatTom
> 
> Ok, Tom...you win...looks like you want to run with the project so please proceed as you wish.
> 
> I am relinquishing the project to you...best success, let me know if you need anything...


I decline. I'm just moving things along as I see fit. I have many other projects, including writing projects, to take on another. I'm old, semi retired, and need long naps you know. I'll jump in from time to time. There are so many strings and posts on this question that it's more of a compilation project, and I just hate doing those.

DRT


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

My first lesson in carpentry was that screws are pounded in and screwed out,
Just saying,
Herb


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## OutoftheWoodwork (Oct 4, 2012)

@Nickp I don't think I'd wanna be an an anal of anything...

Oh wait... you sake an*n*als! 

Sorry, Nick. My glasses weren't on straight...


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## JFPNCM (Dec 13, 2009)

Herb Stoops said:


> My first lesson in carpentry was that screws are pounded in and screwed out,
> Just saying,
> Herb


Reminds me of when a neighbor lady asked me to look at a wobbly table her husband had”repaired” in hopes it could be stabilized and become functional. The first thing I uncovered was that the previous “repair” was accomplished by using longer wood screws and adding a lock washer and nut to each one. Took me longer to get those apart than it did to clean and glue the joints. 

So, perhaps pounding screws is not all that bad. 😳


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

JFPNCM said:


> Reminds me of when a neighbor lady asked me to look at a wobbly table her husband had”repaired” in hopes it could be stabilized and become functional. The first thing I uncovered was that the previous “repair” was accomplished by using longer wood screws and adding a lock washer and nut to each one. Took me longer to get those apart than it did to clean and glue the joints.
> 
> So, perhaps pounding screws is not all that bad. 😳


I remember that table, that is the only screws I could find in the garage,was going to use 16d nails until I found them, had to to take up the slack with the nuts and washers.
Herb


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

What? No HD galv lag bolts in the misc. fastener bucket?!


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## Biagio (Mar 2, 2013)

Danman1957 said:


> ???? ABHOR ???? WOW !!! WHERE DOES ONE FIND SUCH WORDS ? 61 YRS old and I've never heard of it before. The Router Forums is becoming a language course LOL Is it because I'm CANADIAN that I've never heard of it, or is it because except for University, the rest of my education was mostly in French.


Hey Dan, did they stop at je déteste at your school, and not go on to j’abhorre? Maybe it is because you are Canadian.


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## JFPNCM (Dec 13, 2009)

As a matter of history, I learned the word in high school physics as the Prof was keen on the statement “ Nature abhors a vacuum” and had multiple demonstrations for that point. A fun time.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Stick486 said:


> As any woodworker/carpenter/construction guy knows. You can't use "do I need it?" as a criteria for buying a new tool. Whether or not you'll even ever use it is besides the point! For all you confused people out there, I will give you the listed reasons for buying a new tool straight from "The Man Bible" Chapter 35 Section 72 Subsection D Paragraph 23 states:
> 
> *You simply buy a new tool because:
> a) It's there
> ...


At last we agree on something Stick!

It's there
You can


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Herb Stoops said:


> My first lesson in carpentry was that screws are pounded in and screwed out,
> Just saying,
> Herb


Back in England a hammer was affectionately called an American screwdriver by joiners who hammered screws most of the way in and used a screwdriver for the last couple of turns. I've often wondered why they called it an AMERICAN screwdriver.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

I've heard it called a Polish screwdriver. Maybe a Mexican screwdriver too. Pick an ethnicity. The guy I go work with twice a year is named Gibson so I'm think Scottish heritage. He didn't bother using a proper screwdriver the time or two I've seen him use screws. A hammer was good enough for him. Back in the old days when all we had to work with was slotted screws lots of them got driven home with a hammer. Usually out of frustration.


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> I've heard it called a Polish screwdriver. Maybe a Mexican screwdriver too. Pick an ethnicity. The guy I go work with twice a year is named Gibson so I'm think Scottish heritage. He didn't bother using a proper screwdriver the time or two I've seen him use screws. A hammer was good enough for him. Back in the old days when all we had to work with was slotted screws lots of them got driven home with a hammer. Usually out of frustration.



AAHHH, the good ole days...better than coated ring shank nails for holding power...:grin:


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## Danman1957 (Mar 14, 2009)

Thanks Thomas,
I have been watching This Old House for more years than I care to count and of course editing would prevent that word from being broadcast, but the clarification makes sense to me, that accent from the New England States around Boston, Rhode Island and other areas are sure local and sometimes we need help to interpret the ''Jargon''. 
Dan


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## Danman1957 (Mar 14, 2009)

Biagio,

I guess I forgot to mention that I abhorred school !!! LOL

The only courses I enjoyed were auto mechanics, technical drawing, Geography and ???? can't think of any other. Oh yes did I mention that at that time I didn't enjoy woodworking ! wow how we change, from not enjoying something to now teaching it to others ! and loving it. 
I attended French schools from grade 1 to grade 6, then tried the English schools for my first 2 years of high school and then ended up in a very small school that the only optional course was typing. That's when I asked my parents if I could go back to the French school and take the auto mechanics course. I am thankful that I learned the French language for it has allowed me to excel during my career. Living in Quebec Canada, French is a must if you want to succeed. I can also say that'' je n'ai jamais entendu ou utilisé ce mot J'abhorre '' ! but I assure you I know many other bad words that I won't mention. LOL


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Danman1957 said:


> Biagio,
> 
> I guess I forgot to mention that I abhorred school !!! LOL
> 
> ...


Abhor isn't used commonly but it isn't rare either. I had some issues when I was in French speaking Switzerland with Je demande, Je commande and Je veux. You would think we would have translated those words from French to English with equivalent meanings but not the case. I thought I was being polite saying Je veux when I should have said Je demande. I was surprised to see the reaction on the guy's face I was talking to when I did it.


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