# Sticky  Making a nice living with CNC



## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

With the surge in interest in CNC on the Forum, I thought it was time to post some information on how to make serious money with one, other than craft shows and sharing profits online and in consignment shops. This orignially was posted in response to a couple just about to take the plunge, but with added information. This is long.

CNC marketing methods to make CNC pay.

If you are planning to make a living from a CNC, you will have to become very good at marketing your services. Translated, that means being very good at identifying and effectively contacting people and businesses that are likely to make good use of your services. Everyone and their uncle Tom is making occasional signs, or signs with clever sayings or even images they hope to sell in consignment shops or weekend craft gatherings. But to really make any money, you have to identify markets that need lots of what you have to sell, but not so many that they go to a completely automated shop, or one that markets and jobs out the work to Mexico or Asia.

One example would be a small chain of regional hotels with a homey feel where signs, plaques and things of that sort , in script or with logos or other identity setting features are needed in fair numbers.

As machines go, that means something pretty fast with easy setup and software that makes such things as using special fonts or logo images easy to set up and produce in limited runs. In marketing, you'd probably have to locate, contact and work with art directors, architects and interior designers -- the real buyers.

With really good software, you could locate individual property owners for inns or mountain cabin owners, whose orders would be small, but beyond hand made sign quantities. Entrance, exit, mens, family and womens' bathrooms, room number, breakfast, meeting room and other signs with logos and unique fonts are all possible products.

I teach marketing to eye doctors, and know how important it is to any business. The internet and social media are good places to search, and 150 to 300 searches will turn up a good number of customers. You don't want to just have one big customer, they apply intense pressure to cut prices and profits. A good mix of lots of medium sized repeat customers is essential. 

Deliver as fast as you can. Get all art approved by several people. If you see something odd or off in the design, check it with the customer before you make it and try to provide a proof run before you produce in quantity. Learn to proof read. Check the spelling of every word and if any problem shows up, check with the customer before starting design or production. These kinds of projects seldom get full attention and you backing up the person who orders this way will save their fanny if you catch a problem before their boss does.

Check out all kinds of materials to use for projects. See if you can find sources of cutoffs that are consistently available. For example, my son in law gets large quantities of 2x6 asian hardwood from pallets used for forklifts. For outdoor signs, you might try using weather resistant composite or engineered lumber. Can you cut aluminum for small signs, room numbers, etc?

Make your laptop the center of your business rather than the CNC. Being able to sit in your car on vacation while handling a design shows up as exceptional service, and pays for the vacation at the same time. Plan for rush orders. Designers are notorious for pushing deadlines and giving the producer precious little time to finish. That is a formula for a designer who makes an error to blame the producer for errors and delays, and to cut you off. Make this attention to detail and possible "inconsistencies" a feature of your service. You've got your customer's back. If necessary, run everything by a skilled proof reader before submitting the final design to the customer for approval. It's no fun eating a $2,000 order because of a missed comma or wrong font. In other words, make no assumptions, don’t skip a check because deadlines are tight. Email proofs on copy, layout drawings, printouts of drawings made in the software, and photos of the first test piece, lit by side light so the carving shows up well. Be VERY fussy about approvals for logos and special images. If there is any concern about size and proportion, you want them handled on paper, not on some exotic or expensive hardwood. Make sure your contact’s boss reviews anything more than a run of, say, 3 pieces. 

Do not make the mistake of competing on price. Start as high as you can stand it, then go up another 10 percent. If you slash prices to below market rates, you can be dismissed by competitors merely by their saying, "you get what you pay for." When I raise prices, I have to practice saying the amount in front of a mirror until I can do so without making a face or showing uncertainty.

Consider having someone else run the machine, spend your time marketing and taking wonderful, thorough care of your customers so they do repeat business. Making stuff sounds like fun, but it IS a business first, and the dollars and cents, relationships and posting examples of your fine work rank higher than running the CNC. 

Social media and developing a great newsletter mailing list is VERY important. (I use Constant Contact because they just don’t allow practices that appear as spam.) Social media drives people to your website, where they see your work, read your information about how to design, order, avoid errors, plus all kinds of pictures of finished work (not all of which has to be yours, by the way. These photos become an idea bank. If you have some pre-made standard items, show those on a separate page. Publish a checklist of steps from design to ordering to final production runs that emphasizes review and proofing. 

There is a great little book titled “Your First 1000 copies,” which was written for self publishing and other authors on how to use social media, website and email to generate business. It translates to any business and isn’t full of fluff. It’s one of those little books with a huge load of practical information, and it’s $10 bucks on Amazon. Really upped my business results and lowered my marketing costs. Low cost social media and email are now our primary source of new business.

I know free advice is easily dismissed, but I've been doing and teaching marketing for 35 years, and charge a lot for my recommendations. If I were in your situation, what I suggested is what I'd do, and I'd have a list of 30-50 high-potential 50-signs-or-more per year customers in hand before I put a penny down on a machine.


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

Tom,

I don't want to, or have to, make a living with my CNC. I already built one company - sold it off - and got out of the rat race. I'm very content doing the things you say I shouldn't do. One machine will not make a good living, or, in my opinion, a mediocre one. Multiple machines must be run constantly making product that is saleable. 

You are right in that the serious money is in good volume, but not real high volume. Gotta find that "niche". Doing a bunch of personal stuff is just a hobby - hence the term starving artist. But keep in mind, not all want to churn out carloads of product. I make enough to buy more materials, and supplement my other income. Basically it keeps me as busy as I want to be. I don't want to rent a shop, pay all the insurances, buy more equipment and vehicles, have (god forbid) employees again. We are debt free and I'm now enjoying those 6 Saturdays in a week, but I still run a successful business, if only in my eyes.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

honesttjohn said:


> Tom,
> 
> I don't want to, or have to, make a living with my CNC. I already built one company - sold it off - and got out of the rat race. I'm very content doing the things you say I shouldn't do. One machine will not make a good living, or, in my opinion, a mediocre one. Multiple machines must be run constantly making product that is saleable.
> 
> You are right in that the serious money is in good volume, but not real high volume. Gotta find that "niche". Doing a bunch of personal stuff is just a hobby - hence the term starving artist. But keep in mind, not all want to churn out carloads of product. I make enough to buy more materials, and supplement my other income. Basically it keeps me as busy as I want to be. I don't want to rent a shop, pay all the insurances, buy more equipment and vehicles, have (god forbid) employees again. We are debt free and I'm now enjoying those 6 Saturdays in a week, but I still run a successful business, if only in my eyes.


 @honesttjohn I wrote this for a couple that wants to make a living with one machine, doing more specialized work. I agree with you that doing high volume work is not the way to go, but you have to work with people with some money to spend and who want special made stuff in moderate volume. That is essential custom work, for which you get paid fairly wel, IF the customer has a budget. This is definitely a niche, but multi customer approach--there are many potential regional customers in any given area. They are businesses that need moderate runs of special items. Make the standard stuff in between the special projects. Not making any suggestions intended to mass manufacture anything. Notice that I put the laptop at the center of the busienss, not the CNC unit.

I'm with you on not wanting to build a business that owns you, but as a marketing oriented person, I can see making an OK living doing what I wrote about. But I wouldn't plan on getting rich doing so. What you're doing is really a hobby that (usually)supports itself. :smile:


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

Honestjohn pretty much says it all. Anyway, a catch22, I don't like salespeople much, and don't want to be one. But I'll get it figured out - one day. In the meantime my income is enough to clothe, house, and feed me, so I'm not worried about it.


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## kp91 (Sep 10, 2004)

Great points to keep in mind, Tom. I struggle when pricing work, I always like hearing how others do it.

Fortunately I don't have to make a living off of the hobby, that way it is still fun, and I can take a break when it feels like work. I do like making the tools pay for themselves, so I guess that makes me a hybrid hobbyist. Making $100 in sales every so often while having fun and making others happy is my goal these days.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

@JOAT I promise I won't show up in your shop and force you to sell a thing. But there are people who want to make some money with their $5,000 and up CNC mills. This post is for them. I have made a good living for decades simply by putting my good work up where potential clients can see and read about it. That's about what I'm suggesting here. Cold calling, overcoming objections, hard sell, arm twisting, sales techniques don't work very well anymore anyway. Business people aren't sold, they choose to buy. I get it what Honest John means, it's why I don't sell frames. It's a hobby. But my suggestions are for the few that want to do this kind of thing for income. Relax.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Tom I think this is a great subject. I would love to be able to supplement my old age income with a cnc at some point, so I'm paying attention.

I'm terrible at such things, so in my case it's wishful thinking for the most part


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

A $5000 machine is a hobby machine, pure and simple. I have more than that in my setup - call it an almost serious hobby machine. You only get professional rates when you use professional equipment. My wife's place has either 3 or 4 of these pro machines, the cheapest is $80K, and runs past $150K. They run 2 - 10 hour shifts, and it's still only a part of the whole business. They've offered me a job a few different times doing various things, because of my background and experience. I was willing to work 11-2 with Oct, Nov, and Dec off for hunting season. Guess that wasn't good nuff.

Anybody operating in that class of the CNC world ain't hanging around our Forum.

What has been suggested is way beyond what most here will, can afford, or want to do.

I think you have the wrong impression on just how much (or little) one of these hobby machines will put out - no matter how much of a sales program you put together.

Tom, you're just way above our level with all this corporate mentality stuff. And you should charge by the word - I'd be your bookkeeper.

In a nutshell, one machine is not going to make even a decent living - let alone a good one. It can be a supplement, though.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Good point John . I would just like to make enough to pay the machine off , but seeing as I'll have between 15 to 20K for what I want, and I doubt very much that it could be a accomplished for a hobby machine sideline business. I'll be quite happy to have it as a hobby though, as I've always wanted one.

Never mind the wear and tear, but I'm curious as to how much power would be consumed over a 12 hour cut with dust extraction going the whole time. Imagine a vacuum table going too?
I doubt I could even recover that in the sale


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

Rick,

The actual juice usage is basically not really noticeable from the time when I was running the office from here. The spindle is 220 so that doesn't take much, and then whatever your vacuum and power tools consume. And remember, it's not running all the time, either. It's nothing worth worrying about, at least not here in the USA. I ran her almost 2 weeks non stop during Xmas last year and it was nothing worth worrying about. 

Any $$ I get out of it I consider a "bonus." More bits and accessories. Oh, and more bullets and an occasional new firearm. And it helps pay a big part of our deer hunting lease.

I get a lot of the text sign material free from the wife's work place. They use 4 x 8 sheets for everything and the maintenance guy there saves me the big cut offs. You would have a fit if you saw what they throw out. The carving wood or Corafoam I gotta make or buy. But if you ever saw my wood piles... And I still end up buying a lot of the thicker pine panels already glued up. I can't do it that cheap.

There's a buck (Loonie) here and there once you get started. You just gotta find it.


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## BalloonEngineer (Mar 27, 2009)

One of my friends - the first I knew to have a CNC, was retired from being a general contractor for commercial buildings. Bought a $13,000 Legacy Arty with a 24 x 54 cut area, just to do hobby woodworking. As word spread that he had the machine, work found him. One job was 4 carved panels for a set of double doors - not the whole doors - just the carved panels. $1000 per carving. Paid for the machine in less than 18 months. Upgraded last May to a $16,000 Legacy Maverick with 36" x 60" cut area (Legacy offers 100% trade credit when upgrading). This year he has already ordered Legacy's newly announced $26,000 4' x 8' machine. One way he has made money is hosting weekend training seminars for Legacy at $200 - $300 a head, and he also gets a commission when people buy after seeing his machine. He does not seek work at all - does not advertise, and has as much work as he cares to do. He is obviously very fortunate - I didn't even mention that he lives less than 2 miles from Precise Bits and Ron Reed likes to come over and gives him new bit designs to test. 

Some lucky hobbyists make money. Many of the people in the CNC group I am part of are similarly retired and making at least some money using their machines, none have approached it as a full time job. 

I built my machine in hopes of making some money, but am not quitting my day job just yet. I appreciate the advice that building a CNC business is usually about selling more than making. I enjoy both. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

DesertRatTom said:


> @JOAT I promise I won't show up in your shop and force you to sell a thing. But there are people who want to make some money with their $5,000 and up CNC mills. This post is for them. I have made a good living for decades simply by putting my good work up where potential clients can see and read about it. That's about what I'm suggesting here. Cold calling, overcoming objections, hard sell, arm twisting, sales techniques don't work very well anymore anyway. Business people aren't sold, they choose to buy. I get it what Honest John means, it's why I don't sell frames. It's a hobby. But my suggestions are for the few that want to do this kind of thing for income. Relax.


Hi Tom. Yeah, I realize that. But, went thru this thread again anyway. And I think I will buy that $10 book you recommended. I don't have a CNC, don't plan on getting one, but I do plan on selling a few canes and banks, and I'm thinking I can get more than $10 worth of information out of that book. Way I see it, even the little guy can use some help in selling. I don't figure on getting rich, but a few bucks extra every once in awhile will be me some warm fuzzies. Cane making for me is a hobby, as you said, but it's nice to be able to make something a bit different that will help someone, and put a couple of $ in my pocket at the same time. So, Thanks.


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## beltramidave (Jan 6, 2016)

BalloonEngineer said:


> One of my friends - the first I knew to have a CNC, was retired from being a general contractor for commercial buildings. Bought a $13,000 Legacy Arty with a 24 x 54 cut area, just to do hobby woodworking. As word spread that he had the machine, work found him. One job was 4 carved panels for a set of double doors - not the whole doors - just the carved panels. $1000 per carving. Paid for the machine in less than 18 months. Upgraded last May to a $16,000 Legacy Maverick with 36" x 60" cut area (Legacy offers 100% trade credit when upgrading). This year he has already ordered Legacy's newly announced $26,000 4' x 8' machine. One way he has made money is hosting weekend training seminars for Legacy at $200 - $300 a head, and he also gets a commission when people buy after seeing his machine. He does not seek work at all - does not advertise, and has as much work as he cares to do. He is obviously very fortunate - I didn't even mention that he lives less than 2 miles from Precise Bits and Ron Reed likes to come over and gives him new bit designs to test.
> 
> Some lucky hobbyists make money. Many of the people in the CNC group I am part of are similarly retired and making at least some money using their machines, none have approached it as a full time job.
> 
> ...


Ha! I know who that is.. Say hello to Doug from Dave in MN. I stopped in to see both Doug and Ron when in CO a couple of years ago. Two very knowledgeable people and not afraid to share it.

Doug helped me with my very first 3d project for my daughter's wedding.

Dave


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## rrrun (Jun 17, 2014)

*Building a Woodworking Business*

Love this thread.

I'm weeks away from buying my first CNC. Yes, I'm going to sell stuff. More stuff.

I'm currently making cutting boards for the craft fair circuit, and I'm at capacity. I think. And then I got a job to make 84 pieces for a country club. And then another job with 8 pieces for a start-up food company. Last night, I quoted 2 jobs for 26 pieces for a restaurant. I got 3 orders from my sole brick & mortar boutique retailer that carries my stuff. And, I scheduled a meeting for next week to finalize 12 pieces for a realtor.

The first 2 jobs were both referred to me by my engraver, who is now actively selling my services as a complement to her own. When I get the CNC, she'll offer those capabilities as well.

Is it a living? Nope. But I can see that idea from here, truly. I'm not committing to anything other than driving my production as far as I can while having fun. That's key: I'm selling stuff. I'm making stuff. But I am SO having fun. As I frequently say, it's all about finding the pretty, and that's my goal in everything I make.

My wife and I recently completed our 100th event in our 3+ year run as Mrs M's Handmade. I summarized a lot of what we've learned in a blog post, which is humbly submitted. Read that post, *here*.

I also review every craft event that we do, and talk about our experiences as vendors under the series title, "The Board Chronicles." Our latest event, the California Strawberry Festival, is reviewed *here*.

Here's my current, favorite, prettiest end grain cutting board offered for sale. It's $325. I've carried it to about 10 events so far without selling it. It'll sell... eventually. Also shown are a pair of the signs made for the country club... that order was almost $4 grand, and I only carried the sign to the client. The leverage is to do fewer events and more business to business sales, I know. Getting out and _selling_ those B to B projects is the thing I must do to grow revenue, I know.

But will I do what I know I must do? That's the question.

As a wise man once said, nothing happens until somebody sells something.


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## BalloonEngineer (Mar 27, 2009)

Figured some here might recognize him. He is one of the featured owners on Legacy's site. Doug Pinney - Legacy Woodworking

The carved door panels are the middle photo in the top row. Super friendly and helpful guy, and as you say, very talented as well.

He was one of the original 3 founders of the cnc user group (Colorado CNC User Group) I am part of. Great way to learn from a bunch of talented, helpful people. Networking online is great. Much of what I have learned about CNC is from online forums, having people you can see and talk to in person is better. 

While I personally think Legacy's machines are overpriced for their build quality, their level of support is first rate. What Vectric does in support of its software is what Legacy does in support of its machines. Most of the members of the CNC group own Legacy machines. Almost all know John and the other principals at Legacy on a first name basis from personal contact. I have my own take on the fact that they all do.


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## gtsharp (Mar 10, 2014)

This is just one old guy's slant on the subject; now retired but spent the last 35 years with either my own sign shop or employed in one. Originally acquired/built a CNC (2011) to add to the capabilities of sign production. With that being said, I have to go with Desert Rat Tom's philosophy. If you have hopes of making a living selling your craft, you have to market it. Every successful business I've observed has done so. 

At this point in my life I really enjoy making and creating only what I want to, instead of what someone has sketched out on a napkin and expect you to create it for the same cost they have into their napkin sketch, (you'da had to been there, lol ). I do take in 2 or 3 jobs a week on my CNC making parts for items that other people sell. It helps supplement my income, is really easy and keeps me in tune with operating a CNC. It is NOT creative by any stretch of the imagination. I do sell the occasional 'created' item but rarely realize a profit. Okay, I know, enough with the boring post! The point is, IMHO, if you go into business with a CNC, one needs to market and be prepared to make and sell anything and everything that justifies your being in business. Just my $.02 and your mileage may, very well vary.


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## Everend (Mar 15, 2013)

This is great, I need to re-read and take notes. This applies to other business ventures, not just CNC.

"Do not make the mistake of competing on price." This paragraph is GOLD!


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## Gaffboat (Mar 11, 2012)

This has been a great thread with a lot of information and views from both sides. Tom said he wrote his original marketing piece for a couple who wanted to make a living with one machine. Some feel that it isn’t possible to make a living with such a small set-up.

Having worked in the marketing arena for many years I fully agree with Tom’s views. And, at the same time, I’m aware of how challenging it can be with just a two person operation. For 13 years I was the creative part of a two person graphic design and marketing studio. The only way a small company like that can succeed is if one person is constantly doing the selling while the other is busy with production. Someone needs to be out drumming up business and meeting with clients every day to keep jobs in the pipeline and the other needs to be meeting the production deadlines.

Can you make a living that way? Yes you can if you go after the right clients and develop relationships with them. Our little two person operation had some Fortune 500 clients as well as smaller regional businesses. In Tom’s example, since it is a couple, they can probably make a living doing something they enjoy. Will it be a “good living”? That is very subjective because we all have different needs and goals.

As always, one of the secrets is to avoid making commodity products that have a lot of competition. If you can focus of creative solutions that are a cut above the others you can demand more for what you produce. For example when I look at Etsy for carved wood signs I’m astounded at cheaply some are being sold. But when you take Tom’s example and create signage for hotels where every sign includes the hotel logo you have moved beyond simple signage and into the world of branding which is easier to sell and produces more revenue.

As for me, I don’t want to be in business again either. I do think it can be done on a small scale if you keep things in perspective and are willing to work at it full time. It’s tough to take vacations in a two person company.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Everend said:


> This is great, I need to re-read and take notes. This applies to other business ventures, not just CNC.
> 
> "Do not make the mistake of competing on price." This paragraph is GOLD!


Thanks for getting the point. My consultation costs $24,000, every time I raise my price, sales go up. I think the problem is lack of imagination and fixed thinking. What most people think of as marketing is hard sell. But that doesn't really work very well. And yes, my suggestions apply to many businesses. Here's the link to the best online marketing approach I've ever read: *https://www.amazon.com/Your-First-Copies-Step-Step/dp/0615796796/ref=mt_paperback?_encoding=UTF8&me=*  Although it is about book publishing, it works for nearly any business, and certainly does for mine.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Gaffboat said:


> This has been a great thread with a lot of information and views from both sides.... It’s tough to take vacations in a two person company.


Hi Oliver, If you love what you do, its like being on a vacation, and that's why I suggested centering the business on the laptop, you can even do work on vacation. 

You and I have led some pretty interesting lives. 

My email list just hit 617, small, but every one is a serious prospect, generated mostly from facebook posts and shares. I use the method in that little book and we gererate a client about every other mailing. Never do cold calling, never do hard sell, just give out informaiton and invite people to take action. We are in the top 10 percent of open rates on Constant Contact. We chose that service because they do everything possible to avoid spamming, and people know that ethical businesses use that service.

What that means is that our business marketing is mostly done on laptops. My daughter and I share information via dropbox, so it hardly matters which laptop we use. We don't even have to be in the same state, any her daughter (my granddaughter) who lives across the country, is now becoming part of our family business so I may be able to retire before I'm 80 LOL.

As a retired person, making an extra $2K per month would be nice, as a working couple, think $6-12K per month. Very doable if you actually work, not just nap and goof off. Take your vacations around the holidays. Mast of the clients I'd pursue for CNC are inactive at those times.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

I have been meaning to ask this question for some time. Say you make a sign, if you sell it could you be infringing on someone's patent?

Say someone wants the Edmonton oilers logo, or your making a sign with a known slogan, if it's not for personal use or a gift, I believe you can be sued?


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

Rick, 
Yes you can get your t*t in a wringer if you copy a trademarked image!!!! I posted a Harley Davidson sign on Etsy - took about 2 weeks and I (and quite a few others)got 2 nasty emails. One from Etsy and the other from HD legal. Not that I won't do something for someone I know, but not openly advertised. You gotta watch it.

Now you can pay a fee to the trademark holder and a % of each sale. But you'd never sell enough of them to pay the fees, unless Tom markets them for you.


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## difalkner (Jan 3, 2012)

It wouldn't be a patent infringement, Rick, but likely a trademark infringement. Someone can commission you to build an item with the Harley Davidson or Edmonton Oilers logo and you can build that for them royalty free. You can build a hundred of them and give to friends and family if you want. But if you decide to build more and market them for sale then you'll have to pay the piper.

Basically you can - patent a design, machine, or product, etc.; trademark a word, phrase, style, or design that identifies or separates your product from others; and copyright an original artistic endeavor (song, woodworking art, painting, etc.).

Each has its own lifespan, as well. In general a copyright for the original idea holder lasts until his/her death plus 70 years. A patent is 15-17 years depending on the type and who you talk to. A trademark is generally indefinite. Obviously there are exceptions and additions to this and qualifying conditions but this is a fair rule of thumb (for US items, that is, not international - whole different ball game).

I didn't research this so if I'm off a bit I'm sure someone will let me know but this is the general knowledge I try to keep in mind. And likewise there are volumes of this on the Internet but if you need to take advantage of most of this you'll be working with an attorney anyway.

David


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

Hey Tom. Ordered a copy of that book yesterday, $8.90+, used, and free shipping. Got an e-mail, shipped today. 

I've got no worry about trademark infringement, I design all my own stuff. However, I have read that if you make 7, or more, changes to a trademark, it is then considered your work. Don't recall where I read this, possibly on the patent and trademarks site. I once used a photo taken in about 1914, of an individual from one of the NorthWest tribes, to use as the face for my cigar store Indian bank. Later figured out I had made 11 changes from the photo - all hand sketched.


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## woodknots (Mar 7, 2012)

Perhaps if @patlaw sees this thread he might respond, but I haven't seen him active in a while. I believe he is a patent lawyer.

Having said that, I agree with David in that it wouldn't be a patent infringement but a trademark infringement.


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## difalkner (Jan 3, 2012)

And to take it a step further, the moment you create your special design it is yours and yours alone. This is important in the marketplace for sites like Etsy, that truly honors the copyright owner, if you design and build something to sell on Etsy and subsequently see your work being recreated by others then Etsy will pull the item off the other seller's store or shut them down completely until it is resolved. If you post the copyright sign on your photos and in your write up then you have an even stronger case in your favor. If you take it a step further and register your design with the US Copyright office then you have real teeth in your effort and gaining a judgment on your behalf and in your favor is far easier, should it become necessary. 

This goes for all marketplace efforts, not just Etsy, but Etsy is one that truly enforces this and supports originality. Now you can't copyright a modification of a cutting board, let's say, if you see one you like and just exchange Pecan for Cherry and then try and call it original. But if you create a cutting board with a unique inlay or feature that you've never seen before and you are certain it is your original idea then you can copyright that. 

I have yet to open our Etsy shop but when I do there are several designs of items I know are my original ideas and those are marked with the copyright symbol and spelled out in the description. It would be nice to have the problem of something being so good in design and creation that others want to copy your work but that may be a lofty goal - LOL!

David


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

vchiarelli said:


> Perhaps if @patlaw sees this thread he might respond, but I haven't seen him active in a while. I believe he is a patent lawyer.
> 
> Having said that, I agree with David in that it wouldn't be a patent infringement but a trademark infringement.


Guys I meant to say trademark , but couldn't remember what it was called. I see some people on Sharks Tank get tuned in real quick when they mention using someone's logos etc.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Copyrights, trademarks, patents are irrelevant if you are making something with a protected image or slogan for the holder. You just can't reproduce and sell it to others. Your permission is the written order with attached drawings. You can and should keep some samples of projects to show off, and photographs for your website, email newsletters and social media. The pictures and objects also let prospects know that you work with top tier clients. Call them clients, not customers. Whole different mind set.


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

DesertRatTom said:


> Call them clients, not customers. Whole different mind set.


Very glad I went back and went thru this thread again. If that book helps me as much as you have so far, I'll be squattin' in tall cotton.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

JOAT said:


> Very glad I went back and went thru this thread again. If that book helps me as much as you have so far, I'll be squattin' in tall cotton.


Now, that's why I ran for Contributor. Amazing what information has shown up on this string. :grin:


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## MEBCWD (Jan 14, 2012)

One thing you need to remember when you start doing work for other people, it takes time from the projects you design and want to make. Your creativity might sit on your computer for many years before you get a chance to build it or may only take up space on the computer hard drive and never see the light of day. This can also extend over into your everyday life and you could find it hard to find the time to do house repairs, work on cars, mow the property and everything else. 

Another thing to consider when you do work for other people, they may want you to use materials that are not suited to the project to save a few dollars and may not agree with using quality construction techniques to save time on a project. They offer the piece for sale and when someone asks who built it they tell them you built it but they don't tell them you tried to get them to use the right materials and to use better construction techniques so you could end up with a bad reputation for the quality you produce. This type of work you don't want because not only are you making bad product you will eat yourself alive because you know it is wrong.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

@MEBCWD you decline to do work like that, no point. Maybe lose the client? What you do is replace a lousy client or one who asks you to do poor work with a good one who understands that ou are protecting their interest. If you are doing the sort of marketing I described, you will gradually reach the good guys and gals. Mike is absolutely correct about the loser when you compromise or accept work that is lousy; it will be you. 

@Gaffboat Oliver was right about how "making a good living" is very subjective. It does take some time to put this kind of marketing program in place, but there is also a learning curve so you don't necessarily want to explode on the scene. My doctor clients usually take 4-6 months to put our approach in place, sometimes longer. But that is about the interval it takes to train to a basic skill level. 

For example, you'd want to take the classes and visit the experts mentioned in this string. When I started my business, I cut my expenses to the bone and spent a couple of years building my knowledge, reading and studying and working with just a few clients so even if my performance was spotty, it wouldn't put a hex on my reputation forever. 

You can get help from Small Business Administration consultants, usually retired business people who want to contribute to younger peoples' success. We had some help this last year from one of these volunteers to get my daughter up to speed, and to update our brand and paper presentation.


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

I take it that this is not the proper way to go about it.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

JOAT said:


> I take it that this is not the proper way to go about it.


Someone must have been inspired to draw this after attending a Stanley products board meeting. >


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

difalkner said:


> And to take it a step further, the moment you create your special design it is yours and yours alone.
> David


I believe you can reinforce ownership of the material by putting it in a self-addressed, registered envelope, sending it to yourself and leaving it sealed. You must also put a copyright mark on those pages, and on all copies, on the back of products, as well.

I have nearly a thousand pages of maerial and every page has a copyright mark, my name and the year created. And I call attention to the copyright with each client.


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

DesertRatTom said:


> I believe you can reinforce ownership of the material by putting it in a self-addressed, registered envelope, sending it to yourself and leaving it sealed. You must also put a copyright mark on those pages, and on all copies, on the back of products, as well.
> 
> I have nearly a thousand pages of maerial and every page has a copyright mark, my name and the year created. And I call attention to the copyright with each client.


I like the idea of putting a copyright mark on each of my canes and banks. I'm not going to be making 1,000s of them, or probably even 100s, but still, I really like the idea. Now to make a stamp.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

JOAT said:


> I like the idea of putting a copyright mark on each of my canes and banks. I'm not going to be making 1,000s of them, or probably even 100s, but still, I really like the idea. Now to make a stamp.


A hot stamp (wood burning) is a nice way to put it on a product. Rockler has this, but I'm sure you can find one elsewhere.


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

DesertRatTom said:


> A hot stamp (wood burning) is a nice way to put it on a product. Rockler has this, but I'm sure you can find one elsewhere.


Nah, I've got an article stuck away somewhere on how to make one. But, if I can't find the article, probably, I can still work one up. Always more fun to make your own stuff, and loads less costly.


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## Scottart (Jan 8, 2015)

fascinating discussion....


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Scottart said:


> fascinating discussion....


Speak oh router god of the north ! We need your insight


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## Scottart (Jan 8, 2015)

I am on Tom's side on this. Marketing makes all the difference, and I don't mean high pressure sales. 39 years selling for a living has honed those skills and they can not be shrugged off as a small part of what you do if you want to grow. There are lots of books on the topic, Tom has suggested a good one. With out those skills you will be floating around in word of mouth world and saddled with low prices that don't reflect what you do. 

The other part of this conversation that warrants further exploration is what does "making a good living" mean in dollars an cents. In my case, after 40 years in the corporate world, most of my finances are covered for retirement... So making $40000 a year out of my garage shop now allows me to transition away from the corporate umbrella 5 to 7 years ahead of the plan. But $40000 a year would not have covered the costs of raising our 4 kids, and the balance of our life style. 

In June we will bill close to $16000 almost all of it off our 48 x 96' CNCRPT machine. This is our peak season so not typical, but all of it was designed and produced in the last 5 weeks. I work many late evenings and weekends, many folks wont do that, but I truly find this to be a like a vacation. I use very few Clipart models, and most of my designs are mine alone and custom to match a customers imagination.. .. so competition is slim.

My $10k machine is bolted together from a kit, does not have a vacuum table, or auto tool changers. We own an art gallery on a high way to a national park, and i have sold art as a side business for 30 plus years up here.. so that provides some momentum that a newby would lack. I also still work 3 to 4 days in corporate world.

So pick what you want from your one CNC machine. They can certainly pay for themselves with a bit of word of mouth and a few shows each year if you do quality work. Beyond that, i am convinced that $100000 k out of our garage is doable ...... if you want to work, and learn to sell. Having said that... our operation is open 5 months per year and than we go to online selling and a much lighter winter duty.. so our current plans are not to go full speed.... but i sure wish i had started this when i was 40..


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## difalkner (Jan 3, 2012)

Great info, Scott. What are you making that allows you to bill that much in a month? My woodworking frequently involves a lot of detail work on one-offs and commission work and some of it commands a higher price but quantity is low; I'm billing 1/10 that on an average month but I probably stay just as busy with nights and weekends. Granted, I'm just getting started and have only just begun to do any marketing although I too have been in sales/marketing for 25+ years so I know how important that is. But we don't have a store front and have yet to kick off our Etsy shop so most of my work is for a couple of shops and people in town.

Thanks!
David


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## Scottart (Jan 8, 2015)

difalkner said:


> Great info, Scott. What are you making that allows you to bill that much in a month? My woodworking frequently involves a lot of detail work on one-offs and commission work and some of it commands a higher price but quantity is low; I'm billing 1/10 that on an average month but I probably stay just as busy with nights and weekends. Granted, I'm just getting started and have only just begun to do any marketing although I too have been in sales/marketing for 25+ years so I know how important that is. But we don't have a store front and have yet to kick off our Etsy shop so most of my work is for a couple of shops and people in town.
> 
> Thanks!
> David


Hi Dave

Most of what we sell is what i would loosely classify as Cabin signs. 24" x 24" 3D painted, carved outdoor themed name signs. These sell in the $200 to $300 range. Moose, bears, salmon, loons, Alaskana stuff.. etc. 10 or so each month.

Than salt that with a few 36 " to 72" signs that run $600 to $1200.

Like Tom mentioned we also end up with some business that i call B to B. business to business. Bed and breakfasts, lodges, and tourist shops that want signature pieces. These are larger CNC pieces like carved benches, and Bed headboards. Again, $500 to $2000.

On the bottom end is simple routered name signs. I charge $40 for a 24 x 6" raised letter sign with a family name or address. Spray it black, run it through a planner.. done.. these a great place to up sell to something with 3 D and maybe even a painted sign. 

I keep a stock of cribbage boards in the store any one for $89. I also have dozens of Carved panels in the store for customers. a few CNC puzzle games, rod holders, coat racks. A store makes it easy to have a broad range of stuff around ... and it keeps my interest up. 

Than occasionally we get a bigger pieces. I just finished a 34' carved Mural for a local Childern's library.. they had an association with a solid budget and wanted to add some bright colors to the 3 archways entering the library. We get a few big commissions each year that run $3000 to $8ooo.

If you find us on Facebook at Willow Creek gallery.. you can see much of what we sell. I also use FB extensively to market.. Way more sales come from that than our Web Page.. Not in Etsy yet, but headed there..


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## difalkner (Jan 3, 2012)

Thanks so much, Scott. Those are markets I have yet to explore though I've thought of going after some locally and regionally here in the Ark-LA-Tex. We don't have the range of Bed & Breakfast locations here like y'all do but that doesn't mean I can't find other avenues for sales. Of course, our 2x4 CNC won't let us do near the size of signs and projects you can but I've managed to keep it busy enough - just need to find more.

David


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Thank you for starting this thread Tom, and thank you all for sharing your Knowledge, as I may have to really pay attention now . 

I just had a major curve ball thrown at me , as I’m about to get laid off after 30 years of service , and never seen it coming. How I would have done things differantly had I known this was coming . 
If all goes well , there will be severance pay. My health is not great , as I’m down to one eye , and that puts a guy out of all the decent paying jobs , like the mines etc.
I’d be lucky to get a job around here that pays minimum wage and 32 hours a week . No one wants full time employees anymore, as then they have to pay benefits . 

My idea was to invest in a cnc like Scott’s , and take a chance on that . Hopefully I don’t end up putting myself in a worse position. 
If I could make a little better imcome than a job that pays minimum wage I’d be happy . And I’d actually enjoy what I’m doing ,and don’t have to make 60K a year to survive . I don’t mind Kraft dinner lol . 
I was debating to splice fibre , but the local company here really prefers younger guys , so I think that’s out . I hate routine anyways , so that occupation would drive me crazy at best . 

My coworkers think I’m nuts investing in a cnc router table , but I believe it may be my savour.
This is certainly a tough one


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## Everend (Mar 15, 2013)

Good luck with your career change, I have faith in you!

A friend of mine down here bought a laser engraver after he got laid off, that was 9 years ago, he's cranking out trophies, name tags and personalized yeti. I don't know how great of living he's making off it but he has a store front now and a few employees, so it's not too bad.

I left IBM 10 years ago to become handyman. Now I'm a master handyman with an apprentice, who's now capable of running most jobs himself.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Everend said:


> Good luck with your career change, I have faith in you!
> 
> A friend of mine down here bought a laser engraver after he got laid off, that was 9 years ago, he's cranking out trophies, name tags and personalized yeti. I don't know how great of living he's making off it but he has a store front now and a few employees, so it's not too bad.
> 
> I left IBM 10 years ago to become handyman. Now I'm a master handyman with an apprentice, who's now capable of running most jobs himself.


Thanks for your words of encouragement Everend. 
The more I think about it , I have the best people in the world right here at this very forum to mentor me . :smile:
Looks like my garage is getting insulated whether I like it or not lol


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## Flipsaw (Mar 11, 2016)

Sorry to hear about your situation Rick. Will say a prayer that things work out in the long run for you.


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## woodknots (Mar 7, 2012)

hey Rick, sorry to hear about your pending layoff. If you don't find anything, you can always come down to Ontario and caddy for me on the golf course. Can't promise I'll pay you but you'll get the occasional beer on me. And the upside is, you won't have to worry too much about insulation, cause we're slightly warmer in the winter than you are.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Hey @RainMan 2.0, sorry to hear about the layoff. However, not many things get you going faster than that kind of event. But resources get scarce pretty fast if you delay your start up. You have to give it all you've got, and it is rare that a business starts producing much at the very first. Start the marketing effort NOW by identifying some of the same potential clients that the folks have been talking about. Get your CNC while you're able to finance it. Spend daytime hours marketing (research, making contacts, etc), and evenings and nights learning the program and producing samples. Photo the samples and put up a facebook page. Survey the members to work on a company name (ask Oliver for his opinion). 

Work on a way to say what you do, what you have to offer, in less than 45 seconds. It takes some thought and effort. Don't rely on low prices to sell, or you won't make it through long enough to be successful. Keep records, all your miles, all your costs are deductable busieness expenses and you want to offset as much income with expense as the tax code allows. 

I'm always willing to put in my thoughts and I'm cheering for you. Just give it all you've got, starting right NOW! You'll find a lot of leads in the ads in local and regional publications, Look for interesting logos you can use to make samples, and then take that sample with you when you go there. Don't buy a starter machine that won't let you cut something a little larger. In the USA, we have something called the Small Business Administration mentor programs, retired business people who volunteer to help folks start their businesses--but don't get too hung up on making a business plan and setting up accounting. You're going into a pretty simple business with a well defined market. You'll need to set up some simple contracts and forms for working up the visuals (They sign to indicate their approval). Don't make your contract long and complex. If someone wants to stiff you, they will regardless of the complexity of the contract. Too many CYAs in a contract cause people to shy away.

Stay in phone contact, fax or email materials, start an email list as outlined in the little book (Your First 1,000 copies) on Amazon https://www.amazon.ca/Your-First-Co...505043&sr=8-1&keywords=your+first+1000+copies

Set up your facebook page right away (By Saturday after choosing your company name. You will need to get a DBA (ficticious company name) to open a bank account. Set up with a credit card processing account with the settlement going direct to your bank account. You'll probably only need the card reading capability if you do shows or fairs (which would be a very low priority for me).

Set up with Constant Contact to manage your email list. You can have a small list free. They only let you add people who consent to receive emails. I think you can add a sign up box to your facebook page (I can't remember) Our signup is on every page of our website (which is very simple).

But most of your effor needs to go to getting marketing going (days) and gaining skill with the CNC (nights). No vacations for awhile Rick. You'll probably find that your costs will be low for some time. You should have business cards, but even better, a little pocket notebook so you can collect information about your potential customers. Handing out cards is almost entirely non productive, but they expect you to at least have one.

Start collecting pictures of your production so you can show them off on a website. At first, you can make a few signs on speculation or even for free for a few very local companies so you can put up a recognizable name or logo. The effort you put in now pays off, but if you don't give it all you've got, then you don't really have much chance, because delay will eat up your money. Sometimes you can get a little part time job, but only on the weekend if you do that, so your weekdays are open for marketing, sales calls, design and deliveries. 

Go man, *Go!*


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## Pro4824 (Oct 17, 2015)

Hey Rick, I'm really sorry to hear that. But this may end up being the greatest blessing in disguise! I listened to one of Bill Griggs podcast/YouTube videos, He had a guy on there who lost everything in hurricane Katrina and with the last of his resources, He bought a CNC.... It had 
a happy ending! Good luck and I can't wait till next year when you're on here bragging about all the work you've been doing!


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Flipsaw said:


> Sorry to hear about your situation Rick. Will say a prayer that things work out in the long run for you.


Thanks JJ . I pretty much created my own mess here . I had every chance to do things right, but messed it up royally . I seriously had no idea this was coming, and was hoping to stay with them till my mid 60’s. 
Saying that though, I’ve been wanting a change . So maybe this is a blessing in disguise.




Thanks Joe. This is to funny , as I wrote the same thing you did before I knew you posted. Thanks , as that’s gotta be a sign right there lol


Pro4824 said:


> Hey Rick, I'm really sorry to hear that. But this may end up being the greatest blessing in disguise! I listened to one of Bill Griggs podcast/YouTube videos, He had a guy on there who lost everything in hurricane Katrina and with the last of his resources, He bought a CNC.... It had
> a happy ending! Good luck and I can't wait till next year when you're on here bragging about all the work you've been doing!


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

vchiarelli said:


> hey Rick, sorry to hear about your pending layoff. If you don't find anything, you can always come down to Ontario and caddy for me on the golf course. Can't promise I'll pay you but you'll get the occasional beer on me. And the upside is, you won't have to worry too much about insulation, cause we're slightly warmer in the winter than you are.


Thanks Charley . That Beer invite sounds awfully tempting lol .



And Tom , thank you for the advice, much appreciated! I will certainly make a very hard effort at this . I talked to my tax lady down the street, and she thinks this startup company is a great idea . It’s funny as when I talked to her she also mentioned establishing a business name. . I’ll think of one once my head clears , and I’m out of shock 

I have to say guys , it’s almost like divine intervention that I’m here at this forum , as I had no idea my life would go this direction when I joined here .
Funny how things work out


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## difalkner (Jan 3, 2012)

Hey Rick,

So sorry to hear that happened but if you'll recall, that very thing happened to me two years ago. The technology company I worked for pulled up stakes and left Louisiana. Now, I could have moved to Mississippi or Alabama to one of the corporate offices and kept on plugging away but I didn't want to do that. So Sandy and I decided that we'd do a few years early what we had planned when I hit 65 (still not there) and that was for me to do woodworking out of our house. I just really didn't want to go find another technology job for a few years. 

We built the CNC, I started drumming up business, and I'm staying pretty busy. This year I'll do some serious marketing and sales just like I did for 25+ years in the technology sector. Tom's advice is spot on and we're eager to grow our little slice of the pie here in our area.

If there's any way I can help just give me a call - we haven't talked in a while anyway.

David


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## kklowell (Dec 26, 2014)

Hey Rick, I'm sorry that you have to go through the trauma of an unexpected layoff, but I'll bet that if you follow Tom's advice and that of others here, it will end up being a blessing in disguise. I'd be willing to bet that 99% of us here are pulling for ya too! 
Now, think of a business name! My suggestion, just to get you started -- UIG Enterprises...with UIG meaning "uninsulated garage"? LOL


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## Gene Howe (Jul 10, 2007)

Rick, what a shock, for sure. But, you'll persevere and everything will turn out for the best. 
Count me in Ken's 99% cause I'm pulling for ya, too. And, you've already got a head start just by making the decision to go it alone. In a couple years, you'll wonder why you didn't do it sooner. 
Look forward, keep your goals topmost in your mind and never give up.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Thank you guys , I really mean it. I’m in shock and am having a hard time wiping tears away when I read your posts . 
As I mentioned, I brought this upon myself ,as I didn’t really see an end . If things go well , the company is being very generous with there buy outs . This was a voluntary lay off, as I had a choice , but the alternative left a lot of questions, so it was time to move on . 
I will always love the company ,and will always be available if the new guys have issues trouble shooting . 

Anyways on a positive one, I know a former Marine from the USA that said something that has always resonated with me . 
“Improvise, Adapt and Overcome”


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

Rick,

take what you can get til you fall into something, be it woodworking or something else. Just go with the flow and you'll fall into something that'll work. Don't overlook anything.

You won't get rich with a CNC, but you might be a whole lot happier.

Never did I ever think I would carve Polish Eagles for a profit and attend Polish Festivals. It just takes one good idea, product, or the right person to cross your path.

And you know you can always call on any number of us, if only to talk.

Scott ........ we might have just found your summer intern. lol


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

honesttjohn said:


> Rick,
> 
> take what you can get til you fall into something, be it woodworking or something else. Just go with the flow and you'll fall into something that'll work. Don't overlook anything.
> 
> ...


Thanks John. I know a guys not getting rich by any means , but I was hoping to make enough to keep my head above water . I just can’t see a future at HomeDepot lol.
I enjoy things that are cnc and wood related ,so this seems like a viable option


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## bgriggs (Nov 26, 2008)

Great thread guys. I just caught up on what is going on. 

Building a CNC business is no only possible it is probable if you follow proven methods that others have used. Get an audible account and start listening to books about starting a business while you are working in the shop. Get your mindset aligned for success. Start listening to John Saunders and John Grimsm's podcast, "The Business of CNC". Read Pat Flynn's book "Will It Fly?" Follow what he says a find your first product/business idea.

Then execute your plan like you have a rocket booster strapped to your bottom. 

Best wishes.

Bill


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

@bgriggs Good advice about listening to inspiring material. It is easy to get down while going through the initial stages of a startup. But nothing will work better than a persistent effort. 
@RainMan 2.0 OK Rick, time to get going. I suggest you start by going through this thread and writing a list of possible clients and actions. Look them up on the web and Facebook. Write down their locations. Start looking at ads in some of the regional publications. Look for business members of local chambers of commerce, some of them may be good prospects. 

There's some pricing information on this string so you can figure out what to ask. Get your machine and set it up. Learn the software at night. Make some sample signs with the company logos you find in your research. Run your designs by us one the Forum and ask for suggestions. Just get moving now, Rick. Nothing will haul your butt out of shock and depression faster than getting into action on your new future. 

At one point very early in my business, money was very tight and I was tempted to go get a job. But instead, my wife took me to a car dealership and we bought a car! Having a car payment to make shook me into action and so I seriously started executing our plan--got into action contacting all our prospects and started making money. I suggested you get your machine and software ASAP. You'll have a payment to make and will probably have the same experience I did. You aren't going to do hard sell with anyone, just showing a sample and asking whether the potential customer wants to order some customized signs or other items. They will or they won't. And if they don't take the sample to someone else in the same busienss, even a competitor.

Tell us what you're doing as you go along. Take pictures, you'll use them later for marketing on Facebook. We'll cheer you on! --Tom


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

I just re-read this string. It is full of great input. Read it if you have any thoughts about making money with woodworking and/or CNC. 

I got to thinking about hooking up with a CNC owner and doing marketing for them. The missing person in failing businesses is the marketing person. An appropriate percentage would probably work and would keep me off the streets and out of trouble. Just thinkin'.

I'm going to revive this post from time to time to keep it visible.
@RainMan 2.0 How are you doing on this? Easy to get off track, isn't it. :wink:


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

DesertRatTom said:


> I just re-read this string. It is full of great input. Read it if you have any thoughts about making money with woodworking and/or CNC.
> 
> I got to thinking about hooking up with a CNC owner and doing marketing for them. The missing person in failing businesses is the marketing person. An appropriate percentage would probably work and would keep me off the streets and out of trouble. Just thinkin'.
> 
> ...


Tom , thankfully I’m still employed till Aug-16-2019 . In the mean time I’m trying to save as much $ as I can , and finish projects inside my home. 
Will have lots of time on my hands to finish the garage , and then start a cnc build thread .
In theory I could start sooner , but I’m trying to see where I stand financially after I’m layed off . My Shares keep diving , and my company pension is tanking again . Not good timing . 

I wish I had room for a 4x8 machine . I talked to cncrouterparts recently, and for an extra $800 I can have a kit built for a 5x5 instead of a 4x4 . 
That will help by accommodating sheets of Baltic birch in that size if it’s required, plus a little more real estate is always welcome . I don’t know if an extra foot is going to be detrimental to the gantry stiffness , but I’m hoping not , as they do use the same extruded aluminum for there 5x10 model. 
I could accommodate an 8x4 cnc router table if I jettisoned the laser engraver , but I’m planning on getting it fixed while I’m at it . 

I realize you don’t get rich with a cnc , but all I want to do is keep my head above water.
After the smoke clears I’m sure I’ll be into it for around 20K ,and thats building the electronics myself and a cheap eBay water cooled spindle and vfd . Will likely never pay the machine itself off,but will sure have fun learning . 
Ive always wanted one regardless , and I’m sure it’s something I’m going to enjoy, so that alone is worth investing in one. 
I may be able to find a part time job if all else fails , but I’d sure like to work from home. 
This was a great idea for a thread ,and I like all the inspiration you guys have here


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

Tom,

Don't tempt me. lol


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

honesttjohn said:


> Tom,
> 
> Don't tempt me. lol


Lmao , I think I know where this is headed


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

Rick,

Right now I have 6 custom orders waiting, 2 designs to create, and 2 displays to keep up. One of them sold 8 items off the shelf yesterday. Now i gotta replace (make) those along with with today's sales, if any.

For the next 2 1/2-3 weeks I'll be cutting and finishing 12 to 20 hours a day and napping on the couch (chesterfield for you) during the night on some days.

Plus .... getting the new machine up and running and learning about it. Working on the bed now. Might as well do it right the first time.

Plus.......... it's deer season. Priorities!!!!!

This retirement thing is getting out of hand.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

honesttjohn said:


> Rick,
> 
> Right now I have 6 custom orders waiting, 2 designs to create, and 2 displays to keep up. One of them sold 8 items off the shelf yesterday. Now i gotta replace (make) those along with with today's sales, if any.
> 
> ...


Sounds like you need to hire employees. Just kidding. 

It’s a lot easier to work for yourself than someone else though . Especially knowing you can hit that couch on your terms lol. 
I talked to my tax lady , and she said I can write off earning for up to five years . Then if it’s not showing a profit, there’s no more write offs . 
Would be nice to at least pay these toys off


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

OK, most of you already know that I'm not a CNC guy. Which is likely why I never paid attention to this thread before. But when it popped up today, something caught my attention, and now I think I need to read it. Because I'm thinking about getting a CNC machine? Not only no, but Hell no. It is because I'm thinking that a load of the information will also apply to a non-CNC guy, like me. 

So, my question for today is: 
Is there anything specific I should look out for that would apply to me, that I need to ignore, or just need to read it, pick out what would, apply to me, and ignore the rest? 

Fortunately not dependent on woodworking income (a bit of prior planning - retired Army, the disability income was not planned), but on the other hand, can't afford to give away all I make. 

I think later I will start a thread asking about pricing.


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## JFPNCM (Dec 13, 2009)

@RainMan 2.0

Sorry to hear about the lay off. Been through those and there is definitely a better life on the other side.

Don’t forget to look into programs that might be available through the government. Not sure how it works in the North but around here there are opportunities for learning new job skills etc., possible seed money for starting a small business etc. 
and take heed of all the valuable comments in this thread.

We are all rooting for you.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

JFPNCM said:


> @RainMan 2.0
> 
> Sorry to hear about the lay off. Been through those and there is definitely a better life on the other side.
> 
> ...


It’s unfortunate that I’m almost blind in my right eye , as they’ve built another mine a few hours from me , and they just hired my neighbors son who is 53 . 
But there not going to have someone in poor health driving a 2 million dollar truck .
I’m pretty much left with working for myself , or possibly HomeDepot. I would much prefer to see if I can make it at home though .
Just walking around those stores shopping kills my back , never mind actually working there .
The products that would sell the best in my head , may not move at all . We have a lot of wealthy people an hour north of me in Fairmont and Invemere , and it would be nice to make a journey there once in a while . 
I know your not allowed to park on the side of the road anymore , as there’s a big pullout where I’ve seen vendors before .
May have to rely more on e-commerce


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## Scottart (Jan 8, 2015)

Just remember, Don't listen to the folks who say "they can't do it".. … because they are right about themselves..... because THEY can't.

Find a few people that are doing what you want to do, build a friend ship, adjust for what you want out of it, have fun, go for it.


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

RainMan 2.0 said:


> The products that would sell the best in my head , may not move at all . We have a lot of wealthy people an hour north of me in Fairmont and Invemere , and it would be nice to make a journey there once in a while .
> I know your not allowed to park on the side of the road anymore , as there’s a big pullout where I’ve seen vendors before .
> May have to rely more on e-commerce


Rick, for a long time I communicated with a retired college professor. He has/had a workshop in his basement, and primarily made some nice boxes, which usually sold around the $40- 50 mark, perhaps a bit more. No CNC. He hit craft shows several times a year, did well enough to give his small sailboat to charity, and to buy a larger one. Then started getting repeat customers. Then the repeat customers started contacting him direct. Somewhere in there he started selling in a consignment shop or two. Eventually he stopped hitting the craft shows, the repeat customers increased, and he got to the point where the consignment shops were contacting him. Not saying that will happen to you, but it does prove it is possible. I don't know about the craft shows as such, but I think consignment shops might be a good start, just make sure that buyers know it was you making whatever, and how to get in contact with you.

In the small town I live just outside of there is now a new 'general store', selling all sorts of stuff. Apparently they are doing decent business, not stopped to check, but have to drive past almost every time I go to town. A lot of the stuff outdoors is wooden yard art, etc., so thought they might take consignments. But when I called, they said they did when they started, but no more; I'm thinking they but the crafts outright, then resell them, but forgot to ask. They did say that every 2-3 weeks, they rent out up to 20 spaces in their parking lot, $25 each, for venders to sell. That seems to be going quite well, so later going to give that a shot. I've been thinking that flea
markets would be a good way to sell my stuff, but this is closer and should work as well. So you mght want to give flea markets a shot.


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

Just like this, Rick.


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

Scottart said:


> Just remember, Don't listen to the folks who say "they can't do it".. … because they are right about themselves..... because THEY can't.


With me it was people saying, "You can't do it." Puzzled me for a long time, because I knew I could. Finally figured it out, what they meant was that 'they' couldn't do it, so they figured if they couldn't do it, there was no way I could. It used to make my day when they would tell me that, and I could tell them I had already finished it.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

@RainMan 2.0 Hey Rick, go back to the first post and re-read it. It's a fairly well laid out approach that can keep you OUT of the lowball price competition. Go for the high end! Sketch out in writing a direction you might take this. You have at least 7 months to go, so I suggest you start executing your plan NOW. Of course, you can always do the employee thing again. It is easier that way, but you are not in charge of your own fate. When I started my business almost 37 years ago, the most important thing to me was to have my own busienss. To never have to work for someone else again. Even though the first few years were lean, I persisted. And I can tell you, persisting is everything. Everyone can be stopped from time to time. The trick is to always keep restarting. If you run up against something that stalls you, look at it until you understand what it is, and then find the solution and way out. 

The biggest problem most people have in starting a business is that they don't do the work, or worse, they do what they want to do and don't do the rest. Making contacts, visiting potential clients and asking them to buy your stuff is something many people don't want to do, and when they don't, their business fails. I only know one thing that overcomes that, and that is finding someone you can make commitments to and who will ask about what specifically you have actually done. You must consider this person to be your most important contact, especially when they catch you breaking your word.


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

DesertRatTom said:


> @RainMan 2.0 And I can tell you, persisting is everything. Everyone can be stopped from time to time. The trick is to always keep restarting. If you run up against something that stalls you, look at it until you understand what it is, and then find the solution and way out.


When I read that it reminded me of a guy I learned about years ago. He had about 10 or so businesses - all at once. He would start a small business, get it going smoothly, then hire someone to do the work. Then he'd work on doing it again. None of the businesses gave him a lot of income, in fact I think that after he paid for materials and payroll he only made about $10 a week on 1 or 2, but put together, he had a healthy income. Every once in awhile in awhile one of his companies would run out of customers, or for whatever reason. No problem, he would either have a new business ready to put into operation, or he would work on it until he got one ready. I don't know if I could come up with 2 ideas for businesses that would actually make money, let alone 10 or so. 

I guess the moral is just keep plugging, keep coming up with different things that sell, and different places to sell 'em. Short version of your advice Tom.


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## Wafa (Dec 1, 2018)

Hello for all
My name is Hasan 
I am from North Carolina, looking for friends, I have 4x8f CNC router and 4x3f 130 watt co2 laser cutting machine in my home garage.
Truly say I don't know how I can start in USA, it's fully different than our country, the marketing
Communication, the material
I need help if that's possible
Regards


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## Wafa (Dec 1, 2018)

I agree with you tom
My 25 year experience in business,I never worked for any one I have my own business,9 months I am in North Carolina ,import my machines,and I start to look and learn from other how everything is going in new culture for me 
,I am so sorry maybe someone or most of you feeling that's I can't explain well but ,I spent last 7 months also study ESL classes
To learn English language
It's a first time I enrolled with forum ,
And so exciting to get more knowledge
Thanks


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

For as many years as I've been writing as a big part of my work, I still have my daughter look at and edit everything I write. Hassan, suggest with your new language that you have all designs with words checked by someone with good English ability. Spelling errors or using the wrong word can get your work rejected. But with all your experience behind you, you should do pretty well.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Well I had a good conversation with a gentleman from the Creston area yesterday .
I was repairing his line and asked what he had done for a living . Apparently he sold Salmon and other seafood on the side of the road .
Only worked in the summer ,and on a long weekend he was selling over $17,000.
Had other vendors in other towns that also sold for him , and he’d take a cut . Earned him a few hundred K yearly .
He mentioned you do not need a licence to sell if your out of city limits . That’s why I used to see him on highway pullouts during the summer .

So I mentioned my idea with wood carvings , and he told me a funny story .
The Indian reserve going to the States is on the highway , so these two Indians would sit outside selling woodcarvings by there store .
One would sit there painting while the other had a knife and some carving tools etc .
Well it turns out all there stuff was made via cnc at night , and they’d just capitalize on it by saying it was all done by hand lol. 
I guess the tourists just ate this stuff up . Gotta give them kudos


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Merchandising. Once interviewed a gadget making company's president. He made up stories about the origin of every one of his thingies and put them on a tag attached to each item. Sold tons of Chinese made things that had amaricanized labels.


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## Cncest (Apr 26, 2020)

Lots of good info for starting a business. But for me CNC is just a hobby. I realized that I could use one in the shop. With zero CNC experience I ordered an entry level 6040 from Ebay. It took 2 months to get it hooked up and cutting 3D relief items. Now I'm making all kinds of 3d reliefs. First pieces were pine. The type of wood makes a big difference in the quality. So now only cherry or walnut.


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## Rebelwork Woodworking (Sep 11, 2004)

You can make a lfew dollars on a CNC. But I would quit my day job...


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Rebelwork Woodworking said:


> You can make a lfew dollars on a CNC. But I would quit my day job...


Wouldn't ?


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## Rebelwork Woodworking (Sep 11, 2004)

No...


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## Rebelwork Woodworking (Sep 11, 2004)

What did you do for a career?

Did you own and operate a cnc as a ful time business?


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Rebelwork Woodworking said:


> What did you do for a career?
> 
> Did you own and operate a cnc as a ful time business?


If you directed that question to me, I spent 38 years teaching marketing to eye doctors. Before that I was a journalist, and spent the last five years of that as a business writer and editor and interviews two business leaders per week on how they built their businesses. I have read marketing, business and even sales materials and applied them to the operating marketing/sales in a full system that I provided and taught to clients as a consultant and trainer.

I am also always seeing opportunities to make money in all kinds of disciplines. I've been a serious woodworker for about 15 years, but did DIY and home repairs and enhancements pretty much all my life. In writing the original post, and subsequent posts, I presented how I would make a more serious business with a CNC. It was offered in response to a number of posts by people who were thinking of starting a full time or even part time business with their machine.

As it turns out, reading here and on a facebook page for CNC, what I suggested is pretty much what the successful CNC owners were doing. 

I am not the most skilled woodworker here by any means, but I try to post as a teacher, on topics about which I have experience. I also like to think through alternative ways to do things. I have a wonderfully complete shop, lots of tools and accessories, and that allows me to think of and try different ways of skinning that proverbial feline.

BTW Rebel, no offense taken with your question. It provided me with the opportunity to state why I've been an official contributor (before the software change) and why I pipe up so often. I am a teacher at heart, and I think from your posts that you are as well.


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## Rebelwork Woodworking (Sep 11, 2004)

We're just talking. Not trying to upset anyone. I once had a guy contact me in Woodnet.. He said he could tell me how to make a lot of money as a cabinet maker He was from Chicago, Illinois. I talked to the guy, but used none of his advice. He was successful in Chicago at he time. A lot of work was booming.

He no longer is in business. The industry boomed and then it collapsed.

I suggest to anyone. Start part time. Run as hard as you can as long as you can and hope you have a wife or husband that can support you when work gets slow....

I can tell you one thing. Hobbies aren't hobbies anymore when it's time to pay bills


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Rebelwork Woodworking said:


> ,,,I suggest to anyone. Start part time. Run as hard as you can as long as you can and hope you have a wife or husband that can support you when work gets slow....


If you are actively marketing, your numbers should be fairly stable. Part time and full time are quite different. Running the machine is interesting, but someone has to sell something or you have a hobby. Unfortunately, most people have a complete misconception of selling. Today, the old idea of overcoming objections, of selling something to someone who really doesn't want it, is long gone. 

The idea is to eliminate through marketing and communication, those who don't want stuff, and not to pester them by repeated, unwanted contact. You sift through the "no thanks" folks and occasionally, you run across someone who is looking for what you are offering. Sometimes it is because they have a client looking for something you could provide and they don't know where else to look, or you can deliver quickly, or you can consult on, or even supply, designs that translate to workable results. You don't know, but if you listen and ask questions rather than engage in a sales pitch, you will detect the interest and by asking further questions, you can figure out why they need help. If you can do it, are willing to handle their issue, then you are likely to have a customer's first order. Your service, assistance, support, and you produce good stuff, you are likely to get further orders. Price is rarely the big issue with good customers. 

There's an old piece of wisdom in business. What do you do with a troublesome, bad client/customer? You replace the with good customers. Sometimes by saying no to rush rush jobs, no to low or slow pay customers and jobs, imposing extra charges for rush jobs, you can retrain them to be better customers. But you be reluctant to do that if you don't have a good customer to keep up your cash flow. That's why marketing is so important.

What to do with the mildly interested or the NOs? Ask permission to send them a little information. Send a page or two, one with pictures of your best work, the other a brief bit of information about what you do with phone number, email and an admonition to keep this handy in case they ever need what you do. Keep this informational, avoid selling language. If you use the phrase, "serve your needs," you'll be dismissed.


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## Rebelwork Woodworking (Sep 11, 2004)

You have to sell it even if there not interested today. Future buyers is the goal. No interest today could turn in a custoner in months or years. Being confident in your business means you know your pricing. You know what your selling and you know the competition. 

Many just wants quotes to compare, but eventually could lead to some work


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

There is a wonderful little book for self published authors on how to sell lots of books and build an interested readership fairly quickly using email with an assist from social media. It is by far the most concise and worthwhile book on the topic I've ever found. It is titled "Your First 1,000 Copies."

Although for authors, it applies to almost any business. We used if for years to generate business ourselves, modified it only slightly to apply to our clients practices and a bit of it is in my suggestions for marketing. You use the emails to follow up and send a stream of useful information out to prospects who have signed up to read your email. The method fits the small CNC business to a T. It is inexpensive to maintain and allows you to present your current projects to new prospects. In a way, it allows you to let your prospects know how good you are, and at the same time caution them about picking just any provider when they could get your expert help and production.

The basic principles of marketing are very simple, even if some of the methods are arcane. You are looking to reveal people who want what you want to sell, and over time, to turn them into paying customers. Old sales methods focus on overcoming objections to get someone to buy. New methods focus on providing services and goods that people want, or will want, or preferably will want over and over again. If land a contract with a small, but expanding hotel chain to put their logo on every room number plaque on every door, then as they expand, so will your business with them. Once you have their logo scanned in, it's easy to fit on all kinds of additional signs, restroom plaques, signs for the hotel bar, laundry, etc. A B&B or large lodge in the mountains, near the sea or lake, or..., may never open another location, but they might well love the CNC themed signs with logo, and want them everywhere, indoors and out. 

Finding these folks isn't all that difficult. Finding agencies that do branding for such chains is pretty easy as well. There are thousands of small agencies to be approached and if you talk branding using the CNC produced items, you may well reach them. If you help the get started by helping design and then provide a sample, they can pitch their client, and you may have a client. Designers, PR agents, art directors, in house agencies are all prospective clients, and it's not hard to reach them.

If anyone wants further discussion of their CNC marketing plans, I am happy to reply.


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## Rebelwork Woodworking (Sep 11, 2004)

When I want to know how to sell something I simply ask the people sellng it.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Rebelwork Woodworking said:


> When I want to know how to sell something I simply ask the people sellng it.


OK, fair enough. I prefer asking the people who are laying out the cash to buy it. Our consultation and training tab starts at $24K, up to $32K for additional services and programs. No one else "sells" anything like it, so the understanding and listening to the buyers is the key to staying in business nearly 40 years, and now, my daughter runs the show. We have a troubleshooting survey form that addresses almost every issue we've encountered over all those years. And we know how to resolve ever item on the list and have past clients who vouch for us. 

When I mentioned small agencies, I remember a guy who supported our PR department at Kawasaki (motorcycles) when I was PR manager for that company. We had an open budget account to cover him and relied on him for backup and support. He would sometimes pop up with ideas and suggestions that set us off on a different course, including connecting us with a great photographer who didn't break our budget. In my business journalism days, I ran into and got helpful info from a number of small free-lance marketing and PR agencies and individuals. 

Marketing and modern sales avoids the language of selling and the old nostrums: overcoming objections, ABC Always Be Closing, pressure. That faded out a long time ago. Good riddance.


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## thomas1389 (Jan 4, 2012)

Curious... how does one send a private message since the system changed for the "better"?


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## difalkner (Jan 3, 2012)

thomas1389 said:


> Curious... how does one send a private message since the system changed for the "better"?


Click on your avatar in the top right and choose Conversations.

David


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## Jared355 (3 mo ago)

I made some tool holders for Etsy and those things sell like hot cakes…. If I had time I would try to find other ideas but simple simple simple I can’t stress enough


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