# How much HP do I really need ?



## fstellab (Oct 12, 2012)

Hi Folks,

I am looking to buy a new plunge router, after looking at the prices I though it would be best if I really understood my requirements.

I started doing DIY woodwork projects about 6 months ago, building a shop table and shelves. I am now embarking on a closet Organizer, probably using Hardwood ( I will know which wood as soon as my wife can make up her mind).

Is there a chart/table .. showing how much HP is needed to do different routing scenarios ?

Is there a chart/table .. Showing what can be done with a fixed base, a fixed mounted in a table and a plunge base ?

Thanks so much for reading this.

-Fred


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## Harrison67 (May 30, 2012)

Well, if you are taking heavy cuts; use more HP.

Those charts you'll find, are just general guidelines.


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## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

I think the 2 1/4 HP are a good compromise. The combo kits give you the best of fixed/plunge at a relatively good price. They will do about anything you want. If the cuts are too much for them, you can usually make the cut in multiple passes and at slower feed rates.

Charts are really only the chart creators opinion anyway.


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Fred, HP ratings are played with a good deal, many are just plain dishonest. You will get a more realistic comparison using the amps rating. Most of the combo kits that are advertised as 2-1/4 hp pull 12 amps. This is plenty of power for most people. In the US the largest amp rating allowed for routers is 15 amps. This would include the PC 7518 3-1/4 hp model as well as the Bosch MRC23EVSK rated at 2.3 hp. If you do the math you will find the Bosch is a lot closer to the truth.


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Mike said:


> HP ratings are played with a good deal, many are just plain dishonest


Surely not, Mike? :blink: :sarcastic:



Mike said:


> In the US the largest amp rating allowed for routers is 15 amps. This would include the PC 7518 3-1/4 hp model as well as the Bosch MRC23EVSK rated at 2.3 hp. If you do the math you will find the Bosch is a lot closer to the truth.


Is that because of the design limit on the wall socket/appliance plug? Just curious

Regards

Phil


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## mgmine (Jan 16, 2012)

Fred as Mike said hp can and is overstated. Go by the amps and the reputation of the company. In other words don't buy something like a Harbor Freight just because it says that it is 2 hp. Another decision is do you really need a plunge or are you going to be using a table. If using a table then get the biggest one you can afford because weight doesn't matter and you will be able to do anything with it. The opposite is true with a hand held router. Get a lighter one but be prepared not to easily do many things. IMHO a hand held router is like having a computer without a printer.


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## rwbaker (Feb 25, 2010)

Please do not use Amps or KW as suggested before as a bad design can raise the amp rating without a corresponding increase in output. There is no good or common measurement in the industry. HP is the same way. Buy one with 1/2" collet as this is a machine turning at apx 25 to 30 Krpm. Bosch, PC, Dewalt, Milwaukie, Freud and others all have there good and bad side. I use PC, Freud and harbor freight - this covers from good to cheap and each works.

Ass for hardwood closet shelving - think about 1/2 oak or Baltic birch plywood and for the uprights using 3/4" - this way you do not have to worry about warp in future years, unless you are rich enough to purchase quarter sawn hardwoods. Use spiral up plywood bits for the correct fit.

good luck - baker


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## mjdorsam (Nov 27, 2011)

Fred:

Choosing between Router brands, at a given power rating, is much akin to "Ford vs Chevy"; "Canon vs. Nikon" - on cameras. While we tend to focus on HP or Amps, other considerations are the quality of castings for the Fixed and Plunge bases, and whether the collet is centered on the base. For example, PC 89x series has a great motor and documented poor castings.

With all due respect to the fine comments, above, Amps are the most consistent measure of a motor's power; though, I'm sure some creative marketing and engineering folks have figured-out how to mislead us with these, as well. I've only owned PC and Bosch, and have quit PC - due to quality reasons, and now purchase only Bosch. 

There are many fine 12 amp routers; and unless you want to make single-pass raised panels, this should handle your needs. Also, 12 amps is the industry sweet-spot; it's less expensive, less bulky. If you want to go big, the Bosch MRC23EVS is a great machine.
MJCD


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Richard, none of the name brand routers would be considered a bad design except for the HF. Bushings instead of bearings is just poor engineering. The PC 7518 is rated at 3-1/4 hp and draws 15 amps. The Bosch MRC23EVSK router is rated at 2.3 hp and draws 15 amps. The electronic speed control modules boost performance over the straight switch models. Now lets do the math: 1 hp = 746 watts. This is the most accurate way to rate a routers power.


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Phil, standard outlets are rated at 15 amps. Older homes used 15 amp circuits, newer wiring jobs are capable of supporting 20 amp circuits. This is one disadvantage of using 110 vac.


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## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

rwbaker said:


> Please do not use Amps or KW as suggested before as a bad design can raise the amp rating without a corresponding increase in output. There is no good or common measurement in the industry. HP is the same way. Buy one with 1/2" collet as this is a machine turning at apx 25 to 30 Krpm. Bosch, PC, Dewalt, Milwaukie, Freud and others all have there good and bad side. I use PC, Freud and harbor freight - this covers from good to cheap and each works.
> 
> Ass for hardwood closet shelving - think about 1/2 oak or Baltic birch plywood and for the uprights using 3/4" - this way you do not have to worry about warp in future years, unless you are rich enough to purchase quarter sawn hardwoods. Use spiral up plywood bits for the correct fit.
> 
> good luck - baker


I won't get into the theory, but Amps are *quite* standard and kilowatts are just amps times voltage.

However, without efficiency info, they do not necessarily give a good indication of output power, only total power consumption. Bad bearings will increase amps with a drop in available HP(lower efficiency). I use that as an example because most people will understand that. Design issues will also effect efficiency. Also as I have mentioned before, my 15A 3.25HP router idles at about 10A and may hit 12 or so under heavy load. A HP is defined as 746watts. However, there is a difference between input(power consumption) HP and the actual HP delivered to the load(router bit in this case). More amps may just mean more heat generated!

HP may not be accurate, but I think(just my opinion) that HP is still the best rating we have. Don't get hung up in the 2 vs 2.25 vs 2.3 stuff(same with 3, 3.25, even seen some 3.5). But generally speaking a 3HP class router is still more powerful than a 2 hp class router which is also more powerful than the 1.5HP class router.

For instance if the Bosch MRC23 series router are really as powerful as the 1619(Both rated at 15Amps, why does Bosch still make the 1619? There is more going on there than just Amps! If they are truly trying just to be more accurate, why don't the fix some of their other machine ratings? Could be that they don't want to admit they were lying in the first place, but I think there is a little more to it than that.


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## gwizz (Mar 3, 2012)

Stay away from bushing routers as Mike says ( harbour freight in US / Princess auto in Canada ) as you won't get a year out of them as far as accurate cutting goes but hey you thought you got a deal as $89.00 and if it's for rough work or one project and then throw away it's great.

1/2" collet with soft start and speed control is important, I like my Bosch M23xxxxxx ( what ever ) and the LED lighting is a great frill I now wouldn't be without but if your starting out it's not a deal breaker. I still get a lot of use our of and Old dewalt ( model ? from before the motor twist hight adj ) and with only a 1/4" collet it's handy as it's smaller and lighter. I can't see myself into anything bigger and heavier than the Bosch unless I was permently mouting it and then rule #1 would apply.

Rule # 1 - it's called a power tool because of the power and the more the better. more power straighter / cleaner / deeper / smother cuts. ( unless it's physically too big to suit the job ).


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## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

gwizz said:


> Stay away from bushing routers as Mike says ( harbour freight in US / Princess auto in Canada ) as you won't get a year out of them as far as accurate cutting goes but hey you thought you got a deal as $89.00 and if it's for rough work or one project and then throw away it's great.
> 
> 1/2" collet with soft start and speed control is important, I like my Bosch M23xxxxxx ( what ever ) and the LED lighting is a great frill I now wouldn't be without but if your starting out it's not a deal breaker. I still get a lot of use our of and Old dewalt ( model ? from before the motor twist hight adj ) and with only a 1/4" collet it's handy as it's smaller and lighter. I can't see myself into anything bigger and heavier than the Bosch unless I was permently mouting it and then rule #1 would apply.
> 
> Rule # 1 - it's called a power tool because of the power and the more the better. more power straighter / cleaner / deeper / smother cuts. ( unless it's physically too big to suit the job ).


Soft start is a nice feature for handheld use, not nearly as important in a table. The LED light also not nearly as useful in a table.

If rule#1 is the _be all, end all_ answer than I guess technique an skill is worth nothing. Just buy the largest Festool and you will automagically be a master craftsman! Guess I should just take up stamp collecting!


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Duane, most of the speed control modules have a feedback circuit which controls the routers speed. This actually results in a slight increase in useable power. By way of example a 1617 with a straight switch is rated at 2 hp while the 1617EVS is rated at 2.25 hp. While the soft start aspect isn't important in a table the slightly higher output is not a bad thing.


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Dmeadows said:


> Just buy the largest Festool and you will automagically be a master craftsman! Guess I should just take up stamp collecting!


Oh, Duane, so that's where I've been going wrong? :jester: And there was me thinking I could earn a living at this using lesser tools. Guess I should just go and hang my head in shame!

Hi Fred (OP)

Power is relative. I'm a trade joiner. I do lots of heavy cuts such as templating in 36mm (1-1/2in) MDF, cutting/templating kitchen countertops (40mm laminated chipboard), heavy mortising in doors for mortise locks, etc. For that the biggest plunge router I can carry is "appropriate". So I have a 3HP (??? - actually 1850 watts or 16 Amp) tool just for that - works well in a table. But for other tasks, like recessing for hinges, running small mouldings, inlaying small hardware, light grooving the big router is just too much. Too big and heavy for comfortable handling. That sort of stuff can be better done with a small 1/4in router/trimmer like a Colt (GKF600 over here) with as little as 7/8HP (or 600 watts to be more accurate). I guess the best compromise is one of the smaller 1/2in routers, and I now have a deWalt DW622 (a slightly more powerful version of the DW621 sold in the USA) which works well enough at both ends of the spectrum - 1400 watts or 12.7Amps (the DW621 is something like 1200 watts/11Amps). It is small enough _and light-enough_ to do the more delicate stuff, but just about big enough to do the heavy stuff so long I as go gentle on the heavy cuts making maybe 3 or 4 passes instead of the 2 of the big tool. Whilst don't do much table stuff, and a fixed base _is_ better for use in a table, I do enough plunge work to realise that for mortise and tenon work, inlaying hardware (such as shoot bolts and hinges into doors, etc), general template routing and the like a plunger is way, way more convenient and in some cases (mortises) is the ONLY way you can work safely

Good luck making your choice

Regards

Phil


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Mike said:


> Phil, standard outlets are rated at 15 amps. Older homes used 15 amp circuits, newer wiring jobs are capable of supporting 20 amp circuits. This is one disadvantage of using 110 vac.


Tell me about it, Mike. Site tools in the UK and Ireland are 110 volt, although we do sometimes get the option of 32 Amp circuits

Regards

Phil


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## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

Mike said:


> Duane, most of the speed control modules have a feedback circuit which controls the routers speed. This actually results in a slight increase in useable power. By way of example a 1617 with a straight switch is rated at 2 hp while the 1617EVS is rated at 2.25 hp. While the soft start aspect isn't important in a table the slightly higher output is not a bad thing.


Mike, that is interesting, as the triac can't fire at more than 100% power. I am sure there must be another reason for that. Gonna have to do some research into that one!


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## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

Bosch 1617 11 Amp 2 HP Fixed Base Router

Product Description
From the Manufacturer
Bosch, Blue/Silver, 1-3/4 HP Router, Exclusive Precision Centering System For Accurate, Repeatable Cuts At Any Depth Setting, Microfine Bit Depth Adjustment With Resettable Indicator Ring, Adjustable Sub-Base Allows Precise Centering For Pattern Work, All Magnesium Construction For Strength and Light Weight, High Torque, High Efficiency 11.0A, 25,000 RPM Motor, Precision Self-Extracting Collet System For Less Run out and Easy Bit Changes, 1/4-Inch and 1/2-Inch Standard, 3/8-Inch and 8MM Optional, Quick Change Lever Action Template Guide System, Comfortable, Traditional Hardwood Handles, 1 Piece Armature Shaft Provides Accuracy and Long Bit Shank Capacity, 10 feet Rubber Cord.

Product Description
1617 Model Code: AB (part# 1617) This item features: -Course and microfine depth adjustments. -Collet Size: 3/8 in, 8 mm, 1/4 in, 1/2 in. -Voltage: 120.00 VAC. -Base Diam: 6 in. -Price is for 1 Each. Testing and approvals: -Double insulated, UL listed, complies to OSHA. -Double Insulated, UL listed, complies to OSHA. Model Code Model Description AAPower Cap.:2 1/4 hp, Amps:12.00 A, Speed:8000 rpm [Min], 25000 rpm [Max], Control Type:Variable Speed Dial, Includes:1/2 in. S.R. Collet Chuck, 1/4 in. S.R. Collet Chuck, Chip Shield, 16 mm Shaft Wrench, 24 mm Collet Nut Wrench, Wrench, Wt.:8.20 lb ABPower Cap.:2 hp [Max], Amps:11.00 A, Speed:25000 rpm [Max], Includes:1/4 in. S.R. Collet Chuck, 1/2 in. S.R. Collet Chuck, 16mm Shaft Wrench, 24mm Collet Nut Wrench, Chip Shield, Tool Free Templet Guide Adapter, Wt.:7 1/2 lb


Ah, what to believe! Ain't advertising wonderful! There are 3 ratings on 1 router in 1 add page!

Courtesy of Amazon. EDIT: Of course the 2nd product description is for the EVS. Note the 8000-25000 speed range! Off to the Bosch site I go!


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## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

Here is the difference between the 1617 and the EVS version

.......................*1617.....................................1617EVS*
Field.............2610934199............................ 2610934202
Armature.......2610934197.............................2610934201

I much rather think the difference in power is due to this than the speed control!


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Duane, you are correct but please understand that the EVS versions are capable of higher speeds and throttled down by the controler. When power demand increases there is some head room to help the router maintain speed. I am not trying to be technical, just to convey the general idea. Fair enough? Most people do not care about the specifics, only the end results.


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## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

Mike said:


> Duane, you are correct but please understand that the EVS versions are capable of higher speeds and throttled down by the controler. When power demand increases there is some head room to help the router maintain speed. I am not trying to be technical, just to convey the general idea. Fair enough? Most people do not care about the specifics, only the end results.


That's true, speed head room is necessary to be able to maintain constant speed on the high end of the range. But its not the reason for the difference in power. Look at the small router that turn 30,000RPM. They are still lower in power. 

You are right tho, I'll take the extra 1/4HP and the variable speed any day! Especially the variable speed.


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## fstellab (Oct 12, 2012)

*I am thinking .. Do I really need a plunge router ?*


Folks,

Thanks for the great information. I did finally purchase a relatively large, quality router table, the Wolfcraft 490. I am amazed at the rock solid (very heavy) build of this table.

I was planning to put my Skil 1810 Fixed router in the table a leave it. Now I am thinking that perhaps I should consider a high quality fixed router router for the table, and a Palm Plunge router. 

The 2 projects I thought I needed a plunge router are:
- I want to cut a "mortise" ( I think) to put a router plate in my workbench.
- I have some old Kitchen Cabinets, that I want to hang in my shop. I want to cut a big square hold in the Doors so I can cover with pegboard.

I think I could do those with Palm sized plunge router.

As for the Closet, I was planning to stay away from Plywood, and make the shelves from 1x3's or wood cut down to make slats. These would be what they call "Vented" shelves similar to the attached photo. My wife wants Tigerwood, she will get Ash or Hickory.

Thanks again
-Fred


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## mjdorsam (Nov 27, 2011)

M&Ts are a different issue - personally, I would not cut M&T with a palm router. I'm sure there are many, more experienced individuals on the Forum who have done this. Usually, Palm routers are 1/4" shank, 10 amps, or less - this is asking a lot from these resources.
MikeD


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## rwbaker (Feb 25, 2010)

The HF unit is a trash unit for those quick, dirty jobs and mine has bearings ( upper and lower), not sleeves - run out is +/- .003. On occasion I will buy a HF, hand tools only, instead of using my expensive equipment. Never will purchase a floor or bench mount from them. Made a quick release bandsaw (Jet) tensioner from them for about 5.00 US, lot cheaper than Carter - and there is no reason it will not last forever.


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