# How To Determine Radius of a Rail and Stile Profile



## JIMMIEM (Apr 4, 2010)

I'm trying to duplicate the roundover profile of the rail and stile on a furniture drawer front. I did not make the furniture. I laid a straight edge from the shoulder (fillet?) to the edge of the roundover and extended a perpendicular line from the edge of the roundover to the straight edge. Is this intersection the radius?


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

JIMMIEM said:


> I'm trying to duplicate the roundover profile of the rail and stile on a furniture drawer front. I did not make the furniture. I laid a straight edge from the shoulder (fillet?) to the edge of the roundover and extended a perpendicular line from the edge of the roundover to the straight edge. Is this intersection the radius?


I honestly did not understand what you said...

lay the straight edge on the face of the drawer....
measure from the bottom of the straight edge down to where the RO begins...
that number should be the size of the RO if the RO is a true quarter round......

unless.... 

bear in mind that you have true radius as in a real curve, thumb nail radii/profile and finger nail radii/profile that are more like sweeps than curves...
some of these can be very deceptive because only a portion of a roundover bit was used...
to really match what you have is to use radius gauges... 5/6 bucks a set...
they come in SAE and Metric.. look like a set of feeler gauges and have concave and convex gauges/blades...










or.....


----------



## JIMMIEM (Apr 4, 2010)

*Drawer Pictures*

Pictures are attached. The rails. stiles, and center are 1/2 inch thick and glued to a backer piece.


----------



## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

Boy that is a tough one. You might get one of those profile gauges that has the small pins that move when you press it up against the profile and then shows both the male and female cross sectional pattern of the profile. If you don't already have one they are in most tool catalogs,like Lee Valley. Not very expensive but not used too often. I think Rockler and WoodCraft have them too.

Herb


----------



## JIMMIEM (Apr 4, 2010)

Good suggestion. I happen to have one. I'll give it a try. Thank You.


----------



## rwl7532 (Sep 8, 2011)

And practice on scrap until you get it 'right'.


----------



## JIMMIEM (Apr 4, 2010)

I will do that. My problem is I only have standard profile roundover bits. If it's not one that I have then I'll have to keep buying until I get the right one. I'll be working on pecan/hickory which I understand require good sharp bits. I usually buy Infinity bits which aren't cheap.


----------



## tooler2 (Aug 11, 2012)

I agree with Stick486, but the models of gauges he shows are pretty limited and difficult to get into some places. You can buy sets that have individual pieces with multi male and female radii of the same length. You can also make your own one-off gauge by drilling a hole in something and sawing out a section of the edge of the hole. If you start with a 1/2'' hole you will soon see if you need bigger or smaller than the 1/4 radius it gives.
Rob


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

take a piece of tablet card board and scribe it to fit your profile...
compare the cut profile to a circle of known size or the profiles of the RO bits you have...
consult on line router bit catalogs for addition profiles...


----------



## JIMMIEM (Apr 4, 2010)

I'll do that. My wife thinks the wood is pecan. Would you agree?


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

JIMMIEM said:


> I'll do that. My wife thinks the wood is pecan. Would you agree?


yes...
if only there wasn't so much glare...


----------



## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

If she thinks its' pecan, then it is pecan.
Herb


----------



## JIMMIEM (Apr 4, 2010)

I just put some pictures of the drawer sides in the Wood Species section.


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Herb Stoops said:


> If she thinks its' pecan, then it is pecan.
> Herb


you got that right....


----------



## JIMMIEM (Apr 4, 2010)

*Furniture Wood*

She's right unless you experts say different. I'm ok with Pecan....just having trouble finding it. Found an on-line source but hesitate to buy site unseen. Hickory? Will it match? Can buy Hickory locally. Will she notice? Will you rat me out?


----------



## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

JIMMIEM said:


> She's right unless you experts say different. I'm ok with Pecan....just having trouble finding it. Found an on-line source but hesitate to buy site unseen. Hickory? Will it match? Can buy Hickory locally. Will she notice? Will you rat me out?


Hickory heartwood will be pretty close. You are going to have to put a little stain on it anyway. It looks like it has been stained. And of course it is aged so it will be darker than the new wood. You can always get a pecan stain and darken it to match.

Are the center panels of the drawer fronts plywood or solid wood?

Herb


----------



## JIMMIEM (Apr 4, 2010)

Center panels are solid....about 3/8" thick.


----------



## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

If it is a true 1/4 circle then the length at the base or the vertical height will be the same and will equal the radius of the circle. In other words, you can lay a ruler on a rail or stile with zero at the fillet on the edge and where you eyeball to is the radius. Chances are it is 3/8 but 1/4 is a possibility. If you have those cove bits you can cut the mating profile down to a narrow edge and use that for a gauge.


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> If it is a true 1/4 circle then the length at the base or the vertical height will be the same and will equal the radius of the circle. In other words, you can lay a ruler on a rail or stile with zero at the fillet on the edge and where you eyeball to is the radius. Chances are it is 3/8 but 1/4 is a possibility. If you have those cove bits you can cut the mating profile down to a narrow edge and use that for a gauge.


but what if it's 5/16???....


----------



## Frankj3 (Oct 6, 2014)

Don't forget.....sometimes you can combine 2 or more different bits to make a unique contour.
You may be able to duplicate the desired contour by using the bits you have in combination(s).

Good luck and post pictures when finished.


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Frankj3 said:


> Don't forget.....sometimes you can combine 2 or more different bits to make a unique contour.
> You may be able to duplicate the desired contour by using the bits you have in combination(s).
> 
> Good luck and post pictures when finished.


like so???...


----------



## JIMMIEM (Apr 4, 2010)

Stick486 said:


> but what if it's 5/16???....


I think one was 5/16". I like the article you attached about using a few common bits to make many profiles. Thank You. I have those bits already. I could buy one of every size but I might never use them again and they're not inexpensive. 
You folks are great and I appreciate all the help you have provided.


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

can we have a picture of the side panel and if you could ease up on the glare...

1st contender... Nutmeg..
2nd contender... Nutmeg..
3rd contender... Nutmeg Hickory...
*
Color/Appearance: *Heartwood tends to be light to medium brown, with a reddish hue; sapwood is a paler yellowish brown. Boards with contrasting heartwood and sapwood create a somewhat rustic appearance that’s sometimes marketed as Calico Hickory.
*Grain/Texture:* Grain is usually straight, though occasionally wavy, with a medium texture. Pores are medium-sized and open.

be it QS (quarter sawn). RS (rift sawn) FS/PS (Flat sawn/Plain sawn) woods alter the appearance/aesthetics of the wood remarkably within the same species...
99% of the time no one ever includes/provides the end grain or multiple sawns... even after requesting them...

*Plane Sawn*
This is the simplest method. The log is squared and sawed lengthwise. Knots that occur are round or oval -shaped and have relatively little weakening effect on the lumber. The annual rings appear as approximately straight lines running across grain. The lines join at the bottom, forming a U-shape; however, this part is sometimes cut off. Wood cut this way shrinks and swells very little 
in thickness.

*Quarter Sawn*
Wood cut by this method is called "quarter sawn if it is hardwood. If it is softwood it is called "edge grained" or "vertical grained". The log is sawed into quarters, then into boards. The angle between the cut and the growth rings varies from 90 degrees to about 45 degrees. In such wood, the lines formed by the rings run with the grain. Again they will appear as relatively straight or as U-shaped, depending upon how much is cut off. Such lumber shrinks and swells less in width and warps less than plain-sawn lumber.

*Rift Sawn*
The logs are sawed at not less than 35 or more than 65 degrees to the annual rings, usually at about 45 degrees. In wood sawed this way, the rings appear as longitudinal lines. Rays always run longitudinally and are longer than lumber cut by the other methods....

The quarter sawn boards From an Oak tree will have the characteristic “Tiger Stripes” found only in quarter sawn lumber and will generally have less movement (shrinkage) when drying. The way the cells are aligned will cause the quarter sawn board to shrink a little bit in width 
and very little in thickness. 
Quarter sawn boards are also much less prone to warping.
Plain sawn boards have grain in multiple directions, this will cause uneven drying and in turn cause the board to warp (cup, twist, and bow). The shrinkage rate is also much more pronounced in plain sawn boards. Due to the grain's orientation in the board, the board will shrink considerably in thickness as well as width.
The quartered lumber will mainly swell in width, and the plain sawn lumber will swell in width and thickness and possibly even warp.
Besides the stability, (and sometimes ray fleck that is displayed), another great feature of quarter sawn lumber is if you have to glue up boards for a larger sized panel the grain is easily matched to look seamless.

*Now for that Hickory/Pecan thing...*

Read the PDF....

*Notes...*
Sharp tooling is a must and clean your paper often...

Because hickory's hardness even tops sugar maple, you'll definitely need carbide-tipped blades and cutters for your power tools. With that caution in mind, follow these additional tips:

To avoid surface chipping when planing hickory, feed the wood at a slight angle. 
Feed hickory slowly when ripping, allowing the blade plenty of time to clear itself of sawdust. Crosscutting with a carbide blade poses no problems.
Jointing straight-grained stock should be effortless, but occasional wavy-figured wood may chip, so take lighter cuts.
In steam-bending hickory, use only the straightest-grained stock, and then make arcs slightly tighter than needed. Pull the arch wider for an exact fit.
Use only spurred bits and slower drill-press speeds when drilling hickory, and clear the bit often on thick stock to avoid burnishing.
To avoid tearout, take light routing passes with a consistent feed rate.
Avoid cross-grain sanding on hickory because it scratches. Where grains meet at right angles, do your cleanup with a cabinet scraper or random-orbit sander.
For best results when gluing, use an adhesive with longer open time, such as white glue. Lay down a light coat, briefly join the pieces, and then pull them apart to allow the glue to partially setup before reassembling the pieces.
Always drill pilot holes for fasteners in hickory, otherwise the wood may split.
Although hickory responds to all stains and finishes equally well, you may want to fill the grain for ultimate smoothness.


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

JIMMIEM said:


> I'm OK with Pecan....just having trouble finding it.
> Found an on-line source but hesitate to buy site unseen.
> Hickory? Will it match? Can buy Hickory locally.
> Will she notice?
> Will you rat me out?



finding it... where are you...
on line... who is it???
can buy... which will have pecan mixed in w/ it...
notice... some places are best not gone to..
rat me out... no worries.. we are specialist at blackmail when there's beer at stake...


----------



## JIMMIEM (Apr 4, 2010)

Thank You for all the info. I'll attempt another picture. The glare is from the camera's flash. I'll play around with the lighting and see if I can get rid of the glare. I assume you're referring to the cabinet side panel and not the drawer side.


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

yes....
the cabs side panel...
got end grain???
use natural light and no flash...


----------



## JIMMIEM (Apr 4, 2010)

Stick486 said:


> finding it... where are you...
> on line... who is it???
> can buy... which will have pecan mixed in w/ it...
> notice... some places are best not gone to..
> rat me out... no worries.. we are specialist at blackmail when there's beer at stake...


I'm in Massachusetts.....15 miles south of Boston.
Local Hardwood supplier is Downs and Reader...Stoughton, MA. They list Hickory but not Pecan.
OnLine....THE WOOD & SHOP Inc Since 1983 Says they have Pecan.
Boston is home to Sam Adams Beer. Will that work for you?


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

JIMMIEM said:


> I'm in Massachusetts.....15 miles south of Boston.
> Local Hardwood supplier is Downs and Reader...Stoughton, MA. They list Hickory but not Pecan.
> OnLine....THE WOOD & SHOP Inc Since 1983 Says they have Pecan.
> Boston is home to Sam Adams Beer. Will that work for you?


supplier... don't know them...
do you have a Woodcraft available to you???
you could take a drawer in and compare it to their veneer sample book... mind ya.. the place ain't cheap...

Woodcraft of Walpole
Woodcraft of West Springfield
Woodcraft of Woburn

on line... try these folks... Exotic Hardwood Lumber and Wood Supplies | WoodworkersSource.com

oh man...
thanks for the offer...


----------



## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

[
Although hickory responds to all stains and finishes equally well, you may want to fill the grain for ultimate smoothness.[/QUOTE]

Stick, those pictures in the PDF are a lot better representation. Thanks for posting that I saved it for future use.

I still think that his carcase has a stain on it.

Herb


----------



## JIMMIEM (Apr 4, 2010)

I'll have to check the bottom and back for end grain. Woburn is a 40 minute drive from where I live. I'll also check the on-line sources you listed.
Where should I send the beer?


----------



## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Stick486 said:


> but what if it's 5/16???....


I don't know about your bits Stick but that is a hard size to find here. In round overs, coves, and matched rail and stile bits. I checked Amana's catalog and found 3/16", 1/4" and 1/2" sets. I'm pretty sure I have someone's in 3/8" but until I finish my new router table and can unpack my bits I can't be sure. Lee Valley and some of the bigger bit makers sell miniatures and I don't know what they are. You are right about the different profiles available especially if the piece is old enough that they would have used profile planes to make them by hand.


----------



## JIMMIEM (Apr 4, 2010)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> I don't know about your bits Stick but that is a hard size to find here. In round overs, coves, and matched rail and stile bits. I checked Amana's catalog and found 3/16", 1/4" and 1/2" sets. I'm pretty sure I have someone's in 3/8" but until I finish my new router table and can unpack my bits I can't be sure. Lee Valley and some of the bigger bit makers sell miniatures and I don't know what they are. You are right about the different profiles available especially if the piece is old enough that they would have used profile planes to make them by hand.


Infinity has a 5/16" round over bit.


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Herb Stoops said:


> [
> 
> I still think that his carcase has a stain on it.
> 
> Herb


me too and UV altered what was there...
think in terms of poplar as faux cherry and etc....


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

JIMMIEM said:


> Where should I send the beer?


you can have my share...
I don't drink.. allergic to hops and/or barley...


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

JIMMIEM said:


> *I'll have to check the bottom and back for end grain*. Woburn is a 40 minute drive from where I live. I'll also check the on-line sources you listed.
> Where should I send the beer?


end grain... I wonder if one of the drawer faces is easily removable and you can get a look see at an unadulterated wood and/or finish... 
Woburn... maybe you have a Rockler's that is closer...
on line... that link I posted... the customer service there is very good...


----------



## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

Stick486 said:


> you can have my share...
> I don't drink.. allergic to hops and/or barley...


You too? I had to give up my beer because of the yeast causes my gout. So said the doctor, or maybe he wanted me to quit, but it seems to be right ,now every time I snitch a brew the next morning my big toe is killing me.
Herb


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> I don't know about your bits Stick but that is a hard size to find here. In round overs, coves, and matched rail and stile bits.
> I checked Amana's catalog and found 3/16", 1/4" and 1/2" sets. I'm pretty sure I have someone's in 3/8" but until I finish my new router table and can unpack my bits I can't be sure. Lee Valley and some of the bigger bit makers sell miniatures and I don't know what they are. You are right about the different profiles available especially if the piece is old enough that they would have used profile planes to make them by hand.


5/16''... Googled it... very common from just about everybody... https://duckduckgo.com/?q=5/16+round+over+router+bit&t=ffsb
profile plane... kinda doubt it, but if it was resharped shaper cutters.. all bets are off...
and then there is the thing of one manufacturer's rail and stile set won't/doesn't match up to another manufacturer's set even if they are suppose to be the same profile......
not to compound things... so we won't mention matched sets...

working w/ hickory does take a little extra finesse and the occasional working out of an issue or two...


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Herb Stoops said:


> You too? I had to give up my beer because of the yeast causes my gout. So said the doctor, or maybe he wanted me to quit, but it seems to be right ,now every time I snitch a brew the next morning my big toe is killing me.
> Herb


I get the hives...
snitching a beer comes w/ some real issues...


----------



## JIMMIEM (Apr 4, 2010)

Stick486 said:


> me too and UV altered what was there...
> think in terms of poplar as faux cherry and etc....


The furniture definitely has stain on it. There is a small spot on the edge of one of the doors that has been rubbed down to bare wood.


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

JIMMIEM said:


> The furniture definitely has stain on it. There is a small spot on the edge of one of the doors that has been rubbed down to bare wood.


you may have faux pecan....


----------



## JIMMIEM (Apr 4, 2010)

What wood would they use to make faux pecan?


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

JIMMIEM said:


> What wood would they use to make faux pecan?


not many...
ya just might have cherry...


----------



## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

The weight of the wood (density) can be a clue too. Also hardness. Can you leave a mark with a thumbnail?


----------



## JIMMIEM (Apr 4, 2010)

I tried the thumb nail....wouldn't make a mark.


----------



## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

If you google wood identification you'll get a number of sites where you'll be able to compare the attributes like that to pictures of samples and you may be able to identify it that way. Looks, density, hardness, grain pattern, whether it has visible pores or not, etc will all enter into it.


----------



## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

Is all this moot? in the end what difference will it make? I would go with what I could find locally that was as similar as possible grain wise and stain it to match as closely as possible in color and build it as close to the details as the original and be done. 

I have done this with many projects and once the finish goes on it is anyones guess what wood it really is.

Herb


----------



## JIMMIEM (Apr 4, 2010)

You're right. I like your logic. The only ones who will ever see it will be my wife, myself, and whoever gets to clean out the house once we're both gone or don't know what world we're in.


----------

