# Trying to Measure Runout on my Atlas Drill Press



## coxhaus (Jul 18, 2011)

I ordered one of the Grizzly gauge devices from Amazon. I thought I would measure the run out on my Atlas drill press posted on this site.
The way I set this up is shown in the pictures included.

The only thing I found which would measure tight is a reamer I had. The gauge swings from 5 to 94 from 0. I assume this is .011. I think the gauge reads in .001 increments. 

I tried several USA made old drill bits and the swing was at least twice maybe more on some. 

Am I doing this right? If the table is off would it effect this. I used a square to adjust the table. I don't know if I can use the gauge to adjust the table?

How do I know if I am measuring the reamer or the drill press?


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

That looks good to me Lee. I would also try measuring on the quill above the chuck to see if it is the chuck that's causing the run out. And I would see if pushing sideways on the chuck causes a deviation. Sometimes as tapered bearings wear too much free play results and the bearing needs to be tightened. All the bearings on the John Deere skidder I used to own were supposed to be set with .002 to .006 of end play. That is pushing in/out or up/down.


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

Lee try it on the solid part of the chuck where the key goes in. If there is some rust or grrime on one of the jaws of the chuch it could throw off the reamer a bit. If you can loosen the collar and remove the chuck, you might get a better reading on the drill press spindle.
The chuck might have a little run out. How close do you want? .011" should be close enough for wood working.

Herb

Chuck beat me to it.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Probably not relevant as you think you have too _much_ runout but shouldn't the shaft of the gauge be perpendicular to the object being measured? 
I'm just guessing but I think the measurement error increases with the angle to the object (the greater the angle the less difference in the readings?)


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

I think you're right Dan. If the gauge was tangent to the shaft there would be zero in/out so every position between zero and 90* would be a percentage.


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## Quillman (Aug 16, 2010)

You need something with a known history, best: a new ground steel precision drill rod.
Your reamer could be bent.
For drilling big holes in wood, Herb is right; you can live with a 10 mil runout.
Drilling on close centers in metal or plastic? Forget it.
High demanding work in hard wood, samll drills? Then max of 5 or 6 mils TIR, (toal indicated readout).


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## coxhaus (Jul 18, 2011)

Ok I took your advice and moved the gauge up to the chuck just below the hole where the key goes in. Now I only get 1 tick or .001 out. So what does this mean? Is my reamer a little off or is there a problem with jaws in my chuck?

It is funny that none of my drill bits are real accurate. I tested a 1", 3/4", 5/8", and 1/2" drill bits. These are all old, 20 years or more made in the USA twist metal drill bits. Of course they have been used.

PS
The gauge shaft is at 90 degrees as close as I can get it. It may be camera angle.


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

coxhaus said:


> Ok I took your advice and moved the gauge up to the chuck just below the hole where the key goes in. Now I only get 1 tick or .001 out. So what does this mean? Is my reamer a little off or is there a problem with jaws in my chuck?
> 
> It is funny that none of my drill bits are real accurate. I tested a 1", 3/4", 5/8", and 1/2" drill bits. These are all old, 20 years or more made in the USA. Of course they have been used.


Sounds like you are good to go, now you can start making sawdust.
Herb


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

If the outside of the chuck reads good but everything you chuck in it reads out then it is likely the chuck jaws that are the problem. You can spend up to $1000 on a high quality chuck. There are a lot of grades in between.


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

They might just need cleaningYou might try to open them as wide as posible and spay some WD40 up inside and and with a small brush go inside and try to clean them out. I imagine that old of DP has never been cleaned inside the chuck might have some metal shavings packed inside. Worth a try.

Herb


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

and what do you plan om cleaning up the WD w/???
you know it will corrupt/remove the lube inside of the chuck and replace it w/ a crap/cud collector...

Jacobs Drill Chucks


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

chuck up a known straight rod into the chuck and dial off of that...


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## Quillman (Aug 16, 2010)

If you're only going to put holes in wood (say 1/4 - 5/8+) then the following does not apply.
Fastening 2 aluminum components together (a common occurrence for me) is another
& extraordinary matter, at least 8 operations with 3 or 4 drilling tools.
The schedule goes like this:

1) The piece that's tapped: Spot>drill>ream>chamfer both sides>& tap.

2) The component that gets the screw head: Spot>drill>optional ream>chamfer both sides>
then counter sink or counter bore for the screw head.

So if this is common, get a keyless chuck like an Albrecht. But only if the health of the press justifies it. Imagine 8 + operations for a single fastener! A keyed chuck, in this instance, is a liability.


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## neville9999 (Jul 22, 2010)

DaninVan said:


> Probably not relevant as you think you have too _much_ runout but shouldn't the shaft of the gauge be perpendicular to the object being measured?
> I'm just guessing but I think the measurement error increases with the angle to the object (the greater the angle the less difference in the readings?)


This is how it can be checked, a drill press is not a mill and the tables are rarely square to the chuck, they may look square but are they? This test requires the sacrifice of a wire coat hanger. N


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## waynecochran (Aug 2, 2011)

I found that computer printers have some nice polished steel rods inside. If you happen to have one that is dead, tear it apart and get shaft. Works well for runout and getting the table adjusted.


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## coxhaus (Jul 18, 2011)

I have a brand new unused Freud forstner 1 inch bit. It has about .01 swing to the bit. How accurate are drill bits? Has anybody measured some drill bits? Is it possible they add a little runout to keep the bit from burning?

I cleaned my Jacobs chuck with some K&W spray penetrating oil. Then I used a tooth brush and scrubbed 360 degrees from the inside several times spraying more oil. I got a little black out but no chunks. I think it is clean. The jaws move freely until they tighten.

The Albrecht is a nice looking chuck but out of my price range.

I still have to try the wire method for checking the top. I have been busy with my new to me maple workbench.


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## Quillman (Aug 16, 2010)

Forstners are harder than hell to machine.
I would not be surprised if, when new, they spin in a funny circle.
Ordinary regular (118 & 130 deg.) bits are often tapered.
I would not use a drill bit to check runout. It's seen too many machine ops already. You want a precision gound steel pin.
And incidentally a drill ain't necessarily much good until it supported on the drill (pointed) end. And it is best centered and supported when it's in a spot divot created from a solid carbide spotter. More on drilling.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

drill blanks work well in DP's and routers......

Drill Blanks - MSCDirect.com


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## coxhaus (Jul 18, 2011)

I can't decide whether I want to buy a drill blank or not. It is not going to help with drilling. I think my drill press is more accurate than the drill bits. I think to buy a 1/4 and 1/2 inch drill blank are going to cost me $50.

The holes I am drilling are based on the bits I have. I started chucking lots of bits and some router bits. The router bits seem to be the best with the least run out. I guess the best of the big drill bits are up there with the router bits. I don't really have any precision small drill bits as they are lost or broken over the years but I found some old Black & Decker small bits made in west Germany and the 1/4 measures pretty good only about .007 swing. I also have a 1/4 Freud router bit which measures about .008 swing. All my other router bits are 1/2 inch shaft. I don't have any Freud 1/2 inch shaft bits to test.

So now my question is, are smaller bits more precise or is it my chuck which is more precise with smaller bits?

I can't find that the manufactures publish tolerances for drill bits. In the end I guess even .01 is very precise for drilling in wood.


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

If you have a centering pin for your router base plate that might be close enough...?


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## Quillman (Aug 16, 2010)

.500 precision ground steel pins = <$5/5" 
Plenty straight for your apps.


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## coxhaus (Jul 18, 2011)

Do you have a link? Nothing popped when I googled it.


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## coxhaus (Jul 18, 2011)

I just found something interesting at Grainger under dowel pins. Look at these specs I posted. I think it has maybe answered my question about my Jacobs chuck. The smaller ones are more precise. I think my chuck is good.

The diameter varies from 20.008 to 20.21.
Dowel Pin, Standard, Hardened Steel, Plain Finish, 50mm Overall Length, M20 Nominal Dia, Dia 20.008 to 20.021mm, Length Tolerance +/-0.50mm, Single Shear Strength 74250 Lbs, Rockwell Hardness C52-62, Meets DIN 6325 / ISO 8734A m6, Package 5

The diameter varies from 6.006 to 6.015
Dowel Pin, Standard, Hardened Steel, Plain Finish, 16mm Overall Length, M6 Nominal Dia, Dia 6.006 to 6.015mm, Length Tolerance +/-0.50mm, Single Shear Strength 6682 Lbs, Rockwell Hardness C52-62, Meets DIN 6325 / ISO 8734A m6, Package 50


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Lee; that's possibly confusing. Do they mean the _individual pieces_ have a variation from end to end, or are they saying they source from different suppliers and that from batch to batch there can be that much deviation? In other words, 'customers need to check the material rather than assume.'
No mention of linear deviation...It's probably safe to assume that a 5" length is going to be straight(?).
As long as it's straight/precise the exact diameter shouldn't be an issue.


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## coxhaus (Jul 18, 2011)

You could be right. I don't know and I am just making assumptions. Maybe the variation is tied to a percentage so a larger diameter will have a greater variation. How straight is straight and does size affect it?


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## coxhaus (Jul 18, 2011)

Well I needed a drill bit a little bigger than 3/8. I was at Walmart and they had a large orange Black & Decker set made in China for $19.00. I bought it. So I decided to test the runout on the 1/2, 3/8, and 1/4. The runout is greater in the larger bit and decreases as the bits get smaller. The runout seems in par with the other bits I have tested. I guess this will make a good set of drill bits for me. I hope the diameters are true. I don't know how to test them.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

this way...

.


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## coxhaus (Jul 18, 2011)

Do you have a link? I think I need some.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

anyplace that sells drill bits..


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## coxhaus (Jul 18, 2011)

Silly me. I think was drinking too much beer last night. I woke up realizing all I had to do was mic the drill bit.

This morning I put a micrometer on the 3/8 drill bit. My England made 3/8 drill bit is .375. My new Black & Decker 3/8 bit shows as .374. So I think it is a little off. I did get the whole 29 piece set all the way up to 1/2 inch for $19 at Walmart. It will work for me in wood.

I need to drill some oak handles I made for my daughter's BBQ smoker. The shaft is 3/8 for the handle. I need to drill a little oversize so the smoker shaft will pass through.


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