# Tenons on long rails (boards)



## Drosner (Sep 12, 2016)

Hi - I'm building a 7x7 ft door for my workshop and attempting my first mortise and tennon joinery project. The rails and stiles are 8/4 thick poplar 5 inches wide and 7 feet long. 

I originally planned to do floating tenons but have realized I won't be able to create the mortise in the end of the rails because they are so long. I thought about using the hay loft in my barn and attempting to route those out from 7 feet above - but decided against that. 

I've read a lot of suggestions on the Internet and they are all really complicated and prone to error. What does this expert group think of the the following plan. Could anything go wrong with this approach?

- Line up the three 5inch wide boards on my table edge to edge (all flat). Add a forth extra board top pto prevent tear out and provide extra base for the router. 

- set my edge guide to route a line 3 inches (length of tenon) across all of the boards at once and route to the depth of the tennon

- flip the boards over and route the same line across the board - I now have cut an identical line for the cheek on both sides. 

- flip the boards 90 degrees so they are on their sides and do the same line across both sides. In my case I will have to change the depth of the router since the depth to the tenon is different on The sides


- I should hopefully have enough material for the edge guide to ride along since I only ran the first line for the shoulders and the rest of the board is intact 

- if the edge guide hasn't moved and I had a steady hand I should have a perfect routed line for the shoulder all the way around each board. 

- while I have the proper depth for the sides I can route out the rest of the side of the tenons

- set the router depth back to the first depth and remove the remaining wood from the first cut with the boards flat. This is the only step where perfectly setting the router to the same depth will be critical. 

This all seems too easy and I would have expected to see many YouTube videos and woodworking articles showing the method. So I assume something will go wrong that my novice self isn't thinking about. 

Any thoughts from this seasoned group?


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

why are you doing tenons on the ends of the long boards (stiles) and not mortises on the edges??


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## Drosner (Sep 12, 2016)

I'm doing mortises on the side stiles which I thought were the vertical members. Then I have a top, center, and bottom rail which are horizontal and will have a tenon that goes into the mortise of the stile. So these long rails will need tenons on both ends.

Did I get my nomenclature wrong?


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Welcome Drosner. The nomenclature is correct. The tenons are easy. How do you plan on making the deep mortices to match?


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## aaronhooks (Oct 12, 2013)

HI,

Your technique for the tenons will work but the critical positioning of the shoulder cut will be hard to get in exactly the same place on both sides of each stile. If the are not exact you will have a gap on one side. I read about a method that solves the problem and can say from personal experience that it works.

Basically you make a "sleeve" with an opening just tall enough to slide over the thickness of the stile and with the opening about a quarter inch wider than the stile on each side. The whole rectangular "sleeve" should be about 5 inches deep. 

To use it , you slide it over the end of the stile and position it the same way you proposed with your edge guide, I.e. So that your router base rides against it at the right place to cut the shoulder. Then use wedges on the edge of the sleeve( remember you left a quarter inch space on each side). This will hold it plenty tight. Route one side, flip over board and all, route the other and you have perfectly matching shoulders on the faces of each long stile.


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## Drosner (Sep 12, 2016)

Thanks - I have seen that method and will go that direction. I'm not sure why using an edge guide isn't the same thing though? If the guide remains fixed and I do it relative to the same edge of the boards I should get a consistent cut right?

For my mortises I found a 3 inch long bit. I'll need to round the tenons but I believe the cheeks are the important part and I can have some space on the cheek edges.


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

Couple of things to add...

1. Your lumber must be EXACTLY the same thickness in order for your method to work...or the tennons will be different sizes for each board.
2. Safe to assume you plan on doing the mortises first...? Then match the tennon to the mortise...? Test cuts...?
3. Consider hogging out the entire tennon rather than going back and matching the initial depth setting to hog it out later...
4. Gonna be a heavy door...what will you do to keep it square after it's hung...? Is it a sliding door or will it be hung...?
5. Will you be pinning the mortise and tennons...?

Your approach should work just fine...


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## Drosner (Sep 12, 2016)

Oh - and with that jig it only handles 2 sides of the board. I'll need to build a second jig for the side that is 90 degrees from the face.


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## aaronhooks (Oct 12, 2013)

The tricky part with the edge guide method is that you have to position it exactly the same distance from the end when you turn the boards over. With the sleeve type jig, it is already set up to do both sides exactly in the same place relative to the end of the board.

As far as the sides, you could use a back saw to cut the shoulders.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

To do the edges with a router I would clamp all 3 together with the ends flushed up. Assuming your jig cut all the faces the same then the shoulders of all 3 should line up. Clamp a straight edge in line with all the shoulders and use a top bearing pattern bit that will follow the straight edge. You should be able to get close enough that any gap would be so small it shouldn't show. You'll need to start the straight edge out near the tips and work your way back to the shoulders since the router will be sitting on it to make the cuts.

I would also make a mortice in a piece of scrap to use a test fit instead of using a stile.


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## OPG3 (Jan 9, 2011)

Drosner, *Welcome to the Router Forums!* 

_As far as nomenclature, remember this: Stiles Stand & Rails Run._ You've made the right strategy choice in my opinion. 

If I were doing what you're doing, I'd do mortises first (as you have - in the stiles) and cut the tenons on the rails in the following manner:
1. Lay the boards flat and parallel with ends perfectly aligned - slightly cantilevering over a workbench. Clamp the boards using cauls on both ends.
2. Mark a line on those boards that is the intended length of your tenons.
3. Setup a straightedge router guide to enable you to cut one (wide) router bit width off the ends of each board - depth only to face of tenon.
4. Move aforementioned router guide as required to continue doing the same. Do this until you approach your mark from step 2.
5. This leaves your 3- boards with one side removed. Flip boards and repeat this method.
6. You will only need to remove tiny amounts of wood to make the shoulders of your tenons - this can easily be done with a handsaw.
7. Clean-up with a chisel and you should have some very nice tenons.

Otis Guillebeau from Auburn, Georgia


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## Drosner (Sep 12, 2016)

That some great guidance from everyone - much appreciated. 

I think this raises a question of tenon size. Given I have rails and stiles 5 inch wide and 2 inches thick I was going to originally use a lose tenon that I fabricated that is 3/4 thick, 3 inch long, and 2 1/2 wide/tall. This will be a barn door that will roll on a track and I'll have 2 diagonal supports and a center stile. It will be heavy for sure but the majority of the forces will be the sheer force on the stile to rail tenons. Not a lot of force in other spots that I can think of. 

Should I do larger a fatter tenons? My biggest concern was making giant mortises 3 inch deep on the long stiles. In hindsight I should have laminated 2 4/4 boards and dadoed them prior to glue in order go create the tenons. 

Thoughts on my choice for tenon size?


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## greenacres2 (Dec 23, 2011)

With a center stile--is the center stile the full 7' or split between the center rail? If the left, right and center stiles are full 7', then the rails would only be 32" or so each, and much easier to handle for making tenons. (if my mental picture is correct--and after today at work i'd not bet on that!!)

Either way, by rough estimate I've got just the rails & stiles at 200 to 250 pounds (just about 50 board feet). I'd offer to help hang the door, but I think i'm busy that day!! :wink:

earl


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## AndyL (Jun 3, 2011)

Drosner said:


> That some great guidance from everyone - much appreciated.
> 
> I think this raises a question of tenon size. Given I have rails and stiles 5 inch wide and 2 inches thick I was going to originally use a lose tenon that I fabricated that is 3/4 thick, 3 inch long, and 2 1/2 wide/tall. This will be a barn door that will roll on a track and I'll have 2 diagonal supports and a center stile. It will be heavy for sure but the majority of the forces will be the sheer force on the stile to rail tenons. Not a lot of force in other spots that I can think of.
> 
> ...



Mortises should be roughly 1/3 the thickness of the stock so 3/4" seems a good thickness. My hunch is that the width of the tenon should be more than 2-1/2" though. Like maybe 3" or 3-1/2", and offset towards the inside of the rail so that you're not mortising too close to the end of the stile. Often on doors, the tenon also has a haunch that runs through the end of the rail for maximum resistance to torsion.


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## CharleyL (Feb 28, 2009)

A Leigh FMT jig will do both the mortise and the tenon, but it would be hard to justify the cost with just this one project. Do you have a friend who owns one?

I have used the railing on my neighbor's deck for making tenons on long rails using my FMT jig to do this, but the FMT had to be mounted backwards (work side facing back yard). A barn loft would work too, but again it would require mounting the jig backwards, or you would need to stand on a very tall ladder.

Charley


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## mgmine (Jan 16, 2012)

I wouldn't be married to the idea of using the router, at least for the whole job. I would make the shoulder cut with the table saw then either use a dado blade to finish or the router. Long before the router was invented a hand saw would have been used for the entire job. The table saw with a miter gauge will get the job done quicker than you could set up one cut with the router.


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## Drosner (Sep 12, 2016)

Problem with TS is the length of the boards - 7ft 

Anyone see a problem if the mortise is 5/8th from all 4 sides of the stile board. In other words I'd have a consistent depth of 5/8 for the router to route out around the tenon. Just not sure if I'm cutting out too much material in the stile then with the mortise.


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## mgmine (Jan 16, 2012)

Drosner said:


> Problem with TS is the length of the boards - 7ft
> 
> Anyone see a problem if the mortise is 5/8th from all 4 sides of the stile board. In other words I'd have a consistent depth of 5/8 for the router to route out around the tenon. Just not sure if I'm cutting out too much material in the stile then with the mortise.


If you can't fit the 7' on the saw then it won't work but even if you had to move the saw one way or another it would be the best way to go. Another option would be a band saw if you have one. I have found that often times it takes longer to set up a make shift jig than it does to head straight to the fastest tool. Routers are often asked to do things that they weren't meant to easily do. As far as taking off 5/8 all around it all comes down to how strong the joint has to be and the type of wood that you are using. In your case you would still have plenty of wood left to make it nice and strong.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

make sliding dovetails...


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