# Why are the small diameter P-C tempate guides the standard?



## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

When I first started learning about how very useful routers are, by watching the Router Workshop, I noted that the table inserts have 1 3/4 in counterbore with 1 1/2 in through bore. These table inserts were available from Oak Park, as were a whole set of template guides. Now that Oak Park has gotten out of the router business, the only place I know of to get the Oak Park sized template guides are Lee Valley, and they have only a few of the sizes formerly sold by OakPark. The smaller diameter 1 3/16 in Porter-Cable guides now by default are the standard. 
However, even the largest Oak Park template guides are still not Harry's 40 mm template guide, although close.
The 1 1/2 inch opening works well for 90% of the router work (fun?) I did, but there were always those larger diameter bits such as some of the round over bits, classical bits, Ogee bits, Roman Ogee bits, Chamfer bits, with 3/4 in carbide height that are close to 2 inches diameter.

*I would like to call on the router manufacturers and marketers to go to something along the lines of table inserts/base plates with 60 mm (~2 3/8 in) counterbore, 55 mm (~2 1/8 in) through bore, and for someone to produce 60 mm overall diameter template guides* with the 6 mm(1/4 in) high guides of various guide diameters graduated along the lines of those that used to be sold by Oak Park, except now with some larger diameters including the 40 mm guides used by Harry and his router ski disciples, of whom in my head I am one and very soon want to be with my hands.

Then plate inserts of 60 mm outer diameter with various diameter openings can be used to minimize the size of the opening around the smaller diameter bits. 

I think what I have proposed would work well for 99% of my router work, except when I am using obviously larger diameter bits such as the raised panel bits.

Responses anyone?


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

You tell them Tom, my voice is wearing out from shouting about BIG template guides from the rooftops for so many years. The answer that PC guides are the US standard is no reason to not change to a better system. Are there any houses left in the US with gas or Kerosene lighting, I'm sure they were the standard for a long time!


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## WurliTzerwilly (Jun 9, 2013)

It might be worth pointing out to their competitors that Incra provide plates with large bores, in their Magnalock ring set and in their Cleansweep set.

The Cleansweep ones don't have an equivalent of the largest Magnalock because the bore size would be too large for any side vents, so for that size you just use the original Magnalock plate.

I have several large raised panel cutters and I've had no problem finding an Incra plate with a suitable bore.

INCRA MagnaLOCK Ring Set

INCRA 6-pc CleanSweep MagnaLOCK Ring Set


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

From what I can see Alan the rings are not actual template guides, or am I missing something?


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## WurliTzerwilly (Jun 9, 2013)

Harry.

It's me that's missing something - a few brain cells still asleep. 

I completely misread the OPs post and assumed he was talking about table inserts, not bases.

In my defense, I have come across a lot of table inserts that also have cut-outs that are too small.

I'll leave my post with the Incra URLs where it is, in case it's useful to someone else.


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## Quillman (Aug 16, 2010)

"You tell them Tom, my voice is wearing out ....................."
*******************************************
Would appreciate your take on the use of templets & collars with cutters much >1.25" 
(32mm) in diameter or length, thank you.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

It isn't just a matter of big bit's, we can obtain a greater depth of cut because the collet nut of all routers can pass through the guide. We can design projects where different size guides are used with the same template in order to obtain a range of offsets and we mustn't forget that we can see what the bit is doing and I do believe that the bit runs cooler because the dust doesn't compact.
I really am not trying to be a smart- arse Pat., I respect you and your published works but they say little if anything about plunge routing and designing and making female template's and the use of template guides, which so far as I'm concerned are very important aspects of routing.


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## Quillman (Aug 16, 2010)

Interesting points but one omission.
I do make a case for templets, plungers and collars but the PDF's/treatises are not free.
Months of work to produce, years of experience to understand. Not the usual internet trivialities.
And I'd add, the PC design, albeit of lesser major diameters, has 15 choices in ring I & O.D's, a lot of options for smaller cutters.
Templates 1 &
Templates 2
************************************


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Tom, at this time you have three options:
1. Order the Makita metric guide bushings.
2. Buy a Trend Unibase so you can use Trend's assortment of guide bushings up to 90 mm.
3. Build your own.


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

WurliTzerwilly said:


> Harry.
> 
> It's me that's missing something - a few brain cells still asleep.
> 
> ...


Alan, I do have a sometimes obtuse writing style, so I will accept some of the blame for your initial misreading. 
The Incra URLs are of interest; if only they had one close to the size I am asking for! The point you raise in your self defense is exactly what I want to have fixed.


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

harrysin said:


> It isn't just a matter of big bit's, we can obtain a greater depth of cut because the collet nut of all routers can pass through the guide. We can design projects where different size guides are used with the same template in order to obtain a range of offsets and we mustn't forget that we can see what the bit is doing and I do believe that the bit runs cooler because the dust doesn't compact.
> I really am not trying to be a smart- arse Pat., I respect you and your published works but they say little if anything about plunge routing and designing and making female template's and the use of template guides, which so far as I'm concerned are very important aspects of routing.


Harry, thank you very much for making these points. I thought my post was long enough as it was, and thought I should stop when I reached the boundaries of my experience.
I do hope there are manufacturers out there who are reading.


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

Mike said:


> Tom, at this time you have three options:
> 1. Order the Makita metric guide bushings.
> 2. Buy a Trend Unibase so you can use Trend's assortment of guide bushings up to 90 mm.
> 3. Build your own.


Mike, 
I am trying to start a movement, in the path of Harry.
The largest Makita metric guide bushing I can find is 30 mm and I cannot find Trend guide bushings larger than 40 mm. It seems to me the Trend Unibase opening is not large enough to accommodate the larger bits I referenced. Also, it seems that the Unibase is not a table insert. Hence I am left with option 3, and while I fully intend to start making my own table inserts/base plates, I have enough issues with woodworking that I think I have no chance of taking up metal working to make my own guide bushings. My whole point is to have the larger diameter guide bushings and plate inserts, and the base plates/table inserts with openings to accommodate them readily available for all. 
(I am using the vocabulary of Lee Valley)

I speak metric because of my day job, and find it useful with international communities such as this wonderful Router Forums. 

Mike, also let me express my very great gratitude to you for keeping the Router Forums going and thriving.


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

Quillman said:


> "You tell them Tom, my voice is wearing out ....................."
> *******************************************
> Would appreciate your take on the use of templets & collars with cutters much >1.25"
> (32mm) in diameter or length, thank you.


I am not sure what you are asking. I think the answer you are expecting is of the form that I have used enough bits with diameters larger than the base plate/table insert for the P-C sized template guides and even the Oak Park sized template guides that I would find it very useful to be able to readily use bits of up to 2" (51 mm) diameter in a router table without changing the table insert/base plate. I suppose we could go all the way out to 4" (102 mm) and have template guides and plate inserts of those diameters, so all router bits (at least that I know of) could be accommodated.


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

harrysin said:


> You tell them Tom, my voice is wearing out from shouting about BIG template guides from the rooftops for so many years. The answer that PC guides are the US standard is no reason to not change to a better system. Are there any houses left in the US with gas or Kerosene lighting, I'm sure they were the standard for a long time!


I love your analogy to gas and kerosine lighting! (Actually I remember my grandparents used kerosine lighting until the late 1950's)


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Quillman said:


> Interesting points but one omission.
> I do make a case for templets, plungers and collars but the PDF's/treatises are not free.
> Months of work to produce, years of experience to understand. Not the usual internet trivialities.
> And I'd add, the PC design, albeit of lesser major diameters, has 15 choices in ring I & O.D's, a lot of options for smaller cutters.
> ...


One major difference between us Pat. is that you are a professional and earn your living by teaching the finer points of routing whereas I am still a keen hobbyist who has been using routers for 39 years and am in a position to pass on what knowledge that I've acquired over all these years willingly for free. Too many woodworkers use a hand held router for little more than simple edge work and believe that under a table is where a router should live. My efforts are aimed at demonstrating that there is so much more that can be achieved with a hand held plunge router and as I'm sure you know, I hold nothing back, I include in my photo-shoots all my mistakes and how I overcome them. By doing this newcomers to routing should not be put-off when they make mistakes.
Surely the whole point of woodworkers joining ROUTER forums is to learn about routing for FREE, and unlike books, questions can be asked.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

" Why are the small diameter P-C tempate guides the standard? "

Because they are the best 

==


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

bobj3 said:


> " Why are the small diameter P-C tempate guides the standard? "
> 
> Because they are the best
> 
> ==


Bob, my good friend Bob, I'm not a gambler but I will put money on the fact that you are not serious, but like me you occasionally like to stir the pot! It's good to hear from you we don't do this very often like we used to.


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## pal (Feb 13, 2008)

Hi Tom this seems to be the largest makita guide sold in Australia also. 

http://www.norwesttools.com.au/page/shop/browse/category_id/2d51fb10e2e941d38bcf059fed1eec94
Makita Template Guide #165046-4

Template Guide
Size

A = 37mm id
B = 40mm od
C = 11.5mm length
Suit model - 3612/3612C/3612BR/3620/3600BR/RP1800/RP2301FC
Regards 
Harold


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## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

The thing about "standards" is being standard doesn't mean it's best or even that it's good. Just means it's accepted by a lot of manufactures and widely available!

Having a superior system isn't always better if limited or no availability of accessories exists! Certainly doesn't insure commercial success, either! 

Kinda the whole idea of "standards" to begin with is wider availability and better interoperability.

Personally I've never had the need or desire to have my collet able to go through a bushing! The PC types have been adequate for me. Doesn't mean I won't have some day though.


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

Dmeadows said:


> The thing about "standards" is being standard doesn't mean it's best or even that it's good. Just means it's accepted by a lot of manufactures and widely available!
> 
> Having a superior system isn't always better if limited or no availability of accessories exists! Certainly doesn't insure commercial success, either!
> 
> ...


Have you ever tried to use a 3/8 inch radius round over bit in a router table with a base plate/table inser sized to accommodate the P-C style template guides?


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Tom, I'm convinced that it's a case of not missing what they have never tried. I see that we have two Toms looking in!


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## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

mftha said:


> Have you ever tried to use a 3/8 inch radius round over bit in a router table with a base plate/table inser sized to accommodate the P-C style template guides?


No, I have several inserts with different size openings. I can't run a panel raising bit with an insert for PC bushings either, What is your point?

Can also run an overhead pin/guide with a top mounted pattern for inside cuts, if that is the issue. There is almost always a way around most limitations.


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

Dmeadows said:


> No, I have several inserts with different size openings. I can't run a panel raising bit with an insert for PC bushings either, What is your point?
> 
> Can also run an overhead pin/guide with a top mounted pattern for inside cuts, if that is the issue. There is almost always a way around most limitations.


What more do I need to say to make my point? Th PC bushings and the openings in the table inserts/base plates into which they fit are too small for a lot of router table work and certainly too small for router ski work. (see Harry's posts in this thread) I named several router bit types that I use with 3/4 in (nominal 1 in) stock, for which I have to change even the larger Oak-Park table inserts in order to use. 

In order to accommodate the raised panel bits the opening needs to somewhere near 4 in (10 cm). I chose the dimensions I did as a compromise between large enough to be widely useful and the amount and cost of material in the template guides.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Tom

You can use the PC guides with the big panel cutters all it takes is a template/pattern of the panel you want to mill and yes with a fixed base router,D handle or a router table or with a ski jig setup..the best ones are the Lee valley type/size because they are all have 1/4" long stems unlike the PC type,the bigger they are the longer they are the norm..

==



mftha said:


> What more do I need to say to make my point? Th PC bushings and the openings in the table inserts/base plates into which they fit are too small for a lot of router table work and certainly too small for router ski work. (see Harry's posts in this thread) I named several router bit types that I use with 3/4 in (nominal 1 in) stock, for which I have to change even the larger Oak-Park table inserts in order to use.
> 
> In order to accommodate the raised panel bits the opening needs to somewhere near 4 in (10 cm). I chose the dimensions I did as a compromise between large enough to be widely useful and the amount and cost of material in the template guides.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

If a picture is worth a thousand words, what about five pictures!


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Harry

The guide must be smaller than the OD of the bit to work right in fact the best one is a 5/8"/3/4" guide the bit must hang over the edge of the guide to work.. the guide runs on the template/pattern to put the profile in the wood panel...

>>>>>>>



harrysin said:


> If a picture is worth a thousand words, what about five pictures!


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

The very points that I'm attempting to get over Bob. The BIG bits shown cannot pass through a PC style template guide and to insert the bit from the bottom of the guide is just plain unsafe (and I've seen posts where that has been done)


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Harry

check out some of Mike's post he posted a fixture/jig that used a big 1.5 hp fixed base PC to make a panel door..almost the same way..

===




harrysin said:


> The very points that I'm attempting to get over Bob. The BIG bits shown cannot pass through a PC style template guide and to insert the bit from the bottom of the guide is just plain unsafe (and I've seen posts where that has been done)


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Any chance Bob that you could find a link, I'd like to see the thread.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Harry

Mike's post are hard to find but here's just one them

http://www.routerforums.com/attachm...osch-1617-router-raised-panel-doors-wj005.jpg

http://www.routerforums.com/table-mounted-routing/43038-bosch-1617-router-raised-panel-doors.html

//////////



harrysin said:


> Any chance Bob that you could find a link, I'd like to see the thread.


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

I am re-posting the photos from an earlier thread about John Marsh and his company Woodjamb Products. Having watched and tried John's jig I can say it does work well with the PC 690 series D handle base. Keep in mind that no bit manufacturer approves of this method for using panel raising bits.


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

harrysin said:


> If a picture is worth a thousand words, what about five pictures!


Harry, thank you very much for your 5000 words, er 5 pictures showing exactly the issue I tried to articulate. You have illustrated my point as well as I could hope.

I own one router and changing base plates when I need a slightly larger bit is a time consuming task that really slows me down. (I do also have a Demel but neither of its router attachments)


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

bobj3 said:


> Hi Tom
> 
> You can use the PC guides with the big panel cutters all it takes is a template/pattern of the panel you want to mill and yes with a fixed base router,D handle or a router table or with a ski jig setup..the best ones are the Lee valley type/size because they are all have 1/4" long stems unlike the PC type,the bigger they are the longer they are the norm..
> 
> ==


Hi Bob,

Yes, but in my thought process I consider the large panel cutters to be a different "species" that require something along the lines of what you describe or a base plate/table insert with a large diameter opening near 4 in (10 cm) diameter.

You also bring up another point that I have never understood about the PC template guides, why the stems of some are so long. I simply do not understand why the stems ever need to be longer that 1/4" (6 mm) (Actually the plywood 1/4" as opposed to the real 1/4" would be preferable). Can someone please enlighten me on that point?

The only PC guides I own are those that come with things like dovetail apparatus, etc. and I do not own a base plate/table insert into which they would fit, so I would use a (no longer available) Oak-Park or if is available and I own it the right size Lee Valley 1 3/4" OD template guide.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Tom

You need to pickup one of brass rings below it will let you use the standard PC size type guide in your OP router table plate'

The stems are made longer because not all templates use 1/4" thick stock the good ones are 1/2" thick or more.. 

http://store.workshopsupply.com/cat....html?osCsid=2f7e5b82b7b08ce6e540e1b2c628cbfc

http://store.workshopsupply.com/cat....html?osCsid=2f7e5b82b7b08ce6e540e1b2c628cbfc

http://store.workshopsupply.com/cat....html?osCsid=2f7e5b82b7b08ce6e540e1b2c628cbfc

http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=49306&cat=1,43000,49306
==




mftha said:


> Hi Bob,
> 
> Yes, but in my thought process I consider the large panel cutters to be a different "species" that require something along the lines of what you describe or a base plate/table insert with a large diameter opening near 4 in (10 cm) diameter.
> 
> ...


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

bobj3 said:


> Hi Tom
> 
> You need to pickup one of brass rings below it will let you use the standard PC size type guide in your OP router table plate'
> 
> ...


Bob, 
The issue for me is why should I use PC sized template guides when I have the Oak-Park set? I do agree that there are now those who may need the step down lock ring as you showed.

All this discussion is very much beside the point. As Harry's pictures show numerous router bits are too large to be used with the PC sized guides, and even the O-P are too small for some. The use of template guides would be much easier and would become more wide spread if the router equipment manufacturers and marketers were to adopt a slightly larger standard size along the lines I suggested. By this time I was expecting a vigorous discussion of exactly what is the best size.

I am still confused as to why some sets of PC sized template guides vary in height; while 1/2" templates may be (are) ≥1/2" thick, the 1/4" high O-P templates would work them, and I see no advantage to ruling out the use of thinner templates.


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## kp91 (Sep 10, 2004)

Tom,
I think the ring Bob is referring to reduces the 1-3/4 lee valley size to the 1-3/16 porter cable size. You can see the step in the picture.

Ive never seen that adapted before Bob. Hope you've fared well in the rains.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Tom

It's not just a ring it's a adapter that will let you use any brass guide in your table.

===



mftha said:


> Bob,
> Each of the PC sized template guides I own comes with a brass ring as you showed. The issue for me is why should I use them when I do not have any table inserts/base plates into which they would fit?
> I also do not have any router tables into which such table inserts would fit.
> 
> All this discussion is very much beside the point. As Harry's pictures show numerous router bits are too large to be used with the PC sized guides, and even the O-P are too small for some.


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

Mike said:


> I am re-posting the photos from an earlier thread about John Marsh and his company Woodjamb Products. Having watched and tried John's jig I can say it does work well with the PC 690 series D handle base. Keep in mind that no bit manufacturer approves of this method for using panel raising bits.


Mike, I tried searching for John Marsh and Woodjamb products. The top hit on Google already is your post in this thread! The remaining hits are other people named John Marsh. Do you have a link to his company?

His jig does show however that router skis are a viable alternative for using raised panel bits, and also a reason for even larger template guides than I proposed!


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

kp91 said:


> Tom,
> I think the ring Bob is referring to reduces the 1-3/4 lee valley size to the 1-3/16 porter cable size. You can see the step in the picture.
> 
> Ive never seen that adapted before Bob. Hope you've fared well in the rains.


Doug, I reread Bob's post and rewrote my own post to correctly respond to his. I did indeed first misread his post and post a response for which you gave the correct response. During the time I was rewriting my post yours appeared.

It is Bob for whom we should be be concerned about the rains; I live several hundred miles east where we have had almost no rains but record high temperatures for a couple of weeks.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Tom

The brass guides are just like bearings, it can be on top of the bit or below the bit they will work both ways,,,,,,,,, no need to trap the bit inside of the brass guide...

Hope this helps..

===

===


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

bobj3 said:


> Hi Tom
> 
> It's not just a ring it's a adapter that will let you use any brass guide in your table.
> 
> ===


Hi Bob,

I did misread your post and did for a short time have a responding post that reflected my misreading and my totally missing the point of the ring you showed. Now that I know what it is I do see its general usefulness.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

It's all too confusing for me Bob, how about a photo or two, you know how I like (and can understand) photos!


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

harrysin said:


> It's all too confusing for me Bob, how about a photo or two, you know how I like (and can understand) photos!


I'm with Harry. Some pictures would help. Do you have any pictures or drawings, Bob?


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## Alan Bienlein (Oct 17, 2009)

This has been an interesting discussion. I personally have never had a need for a guide bushing that was larger than 3/4" in my almost 35 years of wood working other than the one needed for the PC dovetail jig.

I also wonder why you would use a guide bushing with a cope and stick bit that has a bearing for a guide?

Personally I can't stand the routers with the huge hole in the base plate. I end up replacing them with custom made ones that will accept the pc style guide bushings and one additional one that I can just pass a bit thru while it's running to make the hole the size I need. Thats very rare now ever since I got my router lift that has 8 different replaceable inserts of various sizes and can accommodate up to a 3-1/2" dia. bit. Anything larger than that and you really should be using a shaper.


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

pal said:


> Hi Tom this seems to be the largest makita guide sold in Australia also.
> 
> http://www.norwesttools.com.au/page/shop/browse/category_id/2d51fb10e2e941d38bcf059fed1eec94
> Makita Template Guide #165046-4
> ...


Harold, Thanks very much. 
I can't even find any that large in the US market.


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Tom, John's name came up from a member mentioning his jigs. I will try to get a hold of John to see if he is still producing them. I know he used to sell them through a company in Ohio.

I tried having a company in China produce the larger Oak Park/Lee Valley style guide bushings in both metric and standard sizes and the PC style in metric.. They ignored my thread specification because a different thread die was cheaper; the flange thickness was also way out of tolerance and unusable.


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

Alan Bienlein said:


> This has been an interesting discussion. I personally have never had a need for a guide bushing that was larger than 3/4" in my almost 35 years of wood working other than the one needed for the PC dovetail jig.
> 
> I also wonder why you would use a guide bushing with a cope and stick bit that has a bearing for a guide?
> 
> Personally I can't stand the routers with the huge hole in the base plate. I end up replacing them with custom made ones that will accept the pc style guide bushings and one additional one that I can just pass a bit thru while it's running to make the hole the size I need. Thats very rare now ever since I got my router lift that has 8 different replaceable inserts of various sizes and can accommodate up to a 3-1/2" dia. bit. Anything larger than that and you really should be using a shaper.


Thank you very much for your input. I certainly respect your experience.
I do not understand why you raise the point of using a guide bushing with a bit that has a bearing.
Have you used router skis? Are you describing hand held routers or table routers or both?
The largest diameter bit in my collection is a 3 5/8 in diameter roundover bit that makes a 1 1/2 radius roundover. I intend to use it in building some chests. This bit has a larger diameter than any of the raised panel bits I own, with the possible exception of the ogee profile raised panel bit that came with my Makita 3612c router. Are you telling me I need to acquire a shaper for such work?

However, almost everything I do is with 3/4 inch thick stock, and even with that stock for example a 3/8 in roundover bit is 1 1/2 in diameter, the Roman Ogee 1/4 in radius is 1 1/2 in diameter, the Ogee Fillet with 3/4 in carbide height is 1 5/8 diameter, the 45° chamfer bit which cuts a full 3/4 in is 2 15/32 in diameter (which is even larger than the opening diameter I want to have made standard), a new double ogee & bead bit, a profile I like for edge forming, is 1 3/4 in diameter. None of these would fit through a PC sized table opening, and the smallest diameter of these mention hit the edges of the Oak Park/Lee Valley sized openings.
The way I work I want to minimize changing table inserts and I want to have template guides that fit into the table insert with minimal steps (i.e. shortest time).

How have you dealt with such bits?


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

Mike said:


> Tom, John's name came up from a member mentioning his jigs. I will try to get a hold of John to see if he is still producing them. I know he used to sell them through a company in Ohio.
> 
> I tried having a company in China produce the larger Oak Park/Lee Valley style guide bushings in both metric and standard sizes and the PC style in metric.. They ignored my thread specification because a different thread die was cheaper; the flange thickness was also way out of tolerance and unusable.


Mike, who makes the Oak Park/Lee Valley style guide bushes? 
What you got from the company in China, what can I say. Intolerable.

One thing I learned sometime ago is that the brass guides and plate inserts are made of brass that is on the order of 3% lead, so there are environmental issues in machining them. (Lead is one of the big 4 elements the dangers of which I alert people in my day job, but then how many people have mercury in their mouths, the old amalgam fillings?)


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## Alan Bienlein (Oct 17, 2009)

mftha said:


> Thank you very much for your input. I certainly respect your experience.
> I do not understand why you raise the point of using a guide bushing with a bit that has a bearing.
> Have you used router skis? Are you describing hand held routers or table routers or both?
> The largest diameter bit in my collection is a 3 5/8 in diameter roundover bit that makes a 1 1/2 radius roundover. I intend to use it in building some chests. This bit has a larger diameter than any of the raised panel bits I own, with the possible exception of the ogee profile raised panel bit that came with my Makita 3612c router. Are you telling me I need to acquire a shaper for such work?
> ...


I'll try to answer the best I can without getting long winded.

Yes I have used ski's on a router. That was mainly back in my solid surface days to bring the glue at the seam flush with the surface to minimize sanding.

As for the bit with the bearing being used with a guide bushing I was basically talking about the bit Harry showed in his picture as it looks like a cope and stick bit used for the stiles and rails of raised panel doors.

I also have that same 1-1/2" radius router bit that I used in a hand held router back in the day. That was a beast to use like that. Now it only gets used in my router table.

As for bits here is a sample of the bits I own but it's not up to date as I have acquired quite a few more larger diameter 1/2" shank bits. I don't buy 1/4" shank any more unless I have no other option.



























Here is that large 1-1/2" radius round over bit in use. That bit is 3-1/2" in diameter and as you see I have no problem fitting it in my router table.














I do about 95% of my router work using the router table. I have no problem getting what ever size opening I need for any bit I need to use. I just put in the appropriate size insert. They are the red anodized aluminum to the left in the drawer.








This problem you speak of with the size of the opening is why I finally just bought a lift for my router.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Alan, what are your typical types of projects that you use your router for, I'm curious why you would want to restrict your view of the bit and limit the size of bits by reducing the opening in the base of your router.
As for the bits shown in the photos, they were a quick set-up to illustrate the point that I was attempting to make regarding the benefits of using BIG template guides.


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## Alan Bienlein (Oct 17, 2009)

I do very little with a hand held router any more Harry. Mostly 1/4" and 1/8" round over in a Bosch colt or the PC equivalent. Maybe the occasional dado if the piece is to large to handle on the table saw and by large I mean bigger than 4' x 4'.

Here are a few pics of some of the work I use a router for.

A bamboo table. I made a template out of mdf and used a bottom bearing 1/2" straight bit to cut the curves. 







A flag case. The profile around the flag had to be done with the jig shown to get the profile I wanted from the bit I had on hand.













Curved mouldings and crown. The crown is 5-1/2" wide.













Raised panel doors and beaded face frames.







Dovetails.







Various pieces of trim for the bed I made.



















I did make this jig for mortise and tenon but now I just use my pantorouter or my horizontal slot mortiser.




















This is just a few examples of what I use a router for.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Your work Alan is of a very high standard and the openings in the fixed and plunge router bases are HUGE, just like I keep advocating! but it doesn't agree with your original remarks!


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

Alan,
I am very impressed with the quality of your work. It does indeed show the result of years of experience.
However, the pictures you show of your router seem to contradict what you said about the baseplate opening. 
In other words, I agree with Harry completely.

It seems to me if anything your work supports the point of my opening post.


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## Alan Bienlein (Oct 17, 2009)

No that opening is huge due to the fact I removed the base plate to gain depth of cut for mortises. I no longer cut mortises like that anymore as my panto-router and my horizontal slit mortiser can cut deeper and more consistent mortises. I can cut up to 3-3/4" deep mortises with the slot mortiser up to 6" long and lets say 5" wide in one setup if needed.

Here is the Small Porter cable trim router I use for flush trim and 1/8" and 1/4" round overs.







Here is the Freud you saw with the large opening in the plunge base because I removed the base plate to gain depth that I have setup in the fixed base with a new Plexiglas base plate and setup to take the PC style guide bushings.







And with a guides fence that clamps to the Plexiglas plate when needed.







If the bits don't fit in those openings then I use my router table. Depending on the operation I'm doing I'll either leave the opening as large as possible for increased dust collection or I'll install an insert that will make the opening as small as possible with out interfering with the bit because I might need the support next to the bit.

I guess we are looking at it two different ways as I'm using a router lift that's designed from the get go to have different size inserts just like a shaper but you all are looking for a router manufacturer to design a base plate that has easily interchangeable inserts.

I've never had the need for any guide bushing larger than the ones Porter cable sells. My understanding of all this discussion in this thread and in the other one is that you want guide bushings that are larger than that.

For me if for some reason I might ever need the opening in a hand held router base plate that's larger then the opening for a PC guide bushing I'll just slap a piece of 1/4 ply or Plexiglas and drop the bit thru it while its running to get what I need but at this point I don't need to as I have my router table that's designed like that from the get go. 

Discuss.


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

Alan Bienlein said:


> No that opening is huge due to the fact I removed the base plate to gain depth of cut for mortises. I no longer cut mortises like that anymore as my panto-router and my horizontal slit mortiser can cut deeper and more consistent mortises. I can cut up to 3-3/4" deep mortises with the slot mortiser up to 6" long and lets say 5" wide in one setup if needed.
> 
> Here is the Small Porter cable trim router I use for flush trim and 1/8" and 1/4" round overs.
> View attachment 65119
> ...


I do think you are very close to the mark with your comment about two different ways. One need only watch the videos Harry has posted to understand the value of using router skis and the importance of the larger (40 mm) template guides, and look at Harry's photos of larger bits and smaller template guides.

I do indeed want a base plate/table insert with an easily changed template guide . Changing the base plate only so I can use a 1 5/8 in diameter bit takes more time the first base plate has to have all four screws unscrewed, the second the aligned, all four screws screwed in, then the base plate has t be centered, then the screws tightened. Then ready to go.

Also, larger sized template guides allow options for making varying sized larger copies from smaller templates. I am now trying to do just that. Even with the largest Oak-Park template guide I am going to have to make one template, then make a second so I can make a thire, then use the first and third to make what I am trying to make.


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## Alan Bienlein (Oct 17, 2009)

Sounds like the best thing for you to do is get one of these and mount your router to it for in the router table. Of course I wonder how one of thse would work if it replaced the stock base plate on a hand held router?


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

It works very well and all one needs to do cut a mounting plate down to 8" sq. in that way you can use any bit in your router..and makes a snap to install a new bit.

If you want to do it the real easy way just pickup a Milescraft plate and you can use up to a 2" OD bit with same base plate install...
==


Alan Bienlein said:


> Sounds like the best thing for you to do is get one of these and mount your router to it for in the router table. Of course I wonder how one of thse would work if it replaced the stock base plate on a hand held router?


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Alan, you are in fact agreeing with me, removing the base plate in order to accommodate larger bits wouldn't be necessary if routers all had large openings and large template guides were available. As for the trim router, a comparatively small opening is all that is required for trimming!
Finally, my aim is to guide hobbyists, not professionals who generally have access to a range of tools that hobbyists don't.


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

I fully agree with Harry. Alan, I think you have provided very good visual support for the need for large openings. 

I think we all agree that in a router table the work piece needs to be supported as much as possible. It is for that reason that I did not simply attach my router to the Oak Park large opening table insert. It is also for that reason I was very happy to discover the Lee Valley router plate inserts that fit into the Oak Park standard opening table insert, and noted they also sell plate inserts for the P C sized table inserts. These plate inserts make possible safe router table work with small width work pieces. (Yes, there are other plate inserts such as the Incra set I became aware of earlier in this thread, the Milescraft set and the plate inserts shown by Bob (I have those, obtained from MLCS) and other possible solutions such as the GRR-Ripper). 

I use the Oak Park systems for nearly all my router table work, and I found their now no longer available Miter Gauge system which uses a 1 inch template guide in the table to be very useful. Even when I first started using it I thought how much more useful it would be if it used a larger template guide, such as the 40 mm or even better the 50 mm guides shown by Harry, or, now that my thoughts are more consolidated, the size I proposed in my opening post. Now, as a result of the discussions in this thread and examining my own router bit collection, I think a standard opening of 65 mm through bore, 75 mm counter bore would be optimal. And for template guides be made for such table insert/base plates.

However, table work is not the only way to use a router. About half the work I do is with handheld routers, and almost all of that work involves template guides. As soon as I can get them built I will start using router skis. For router skis or for handheld router use the issue of work piece support is not an issue. Using larger template guides allows one to see the cutting part of the router bit as it is cutting. 

I am a router hobbyist, not a router professional; my livelihood does not depend my use of the router. I would rather spend my money on router bits than on buying more routers. I am quite happy with my one router.

As Duane (Dmeadows) posted "The thing about "standards" is being standard doesn't mean it's best *or even that it is good*. (Emphasis mine) Just means it's accepted by a lot of manufacturers and widely available!"

I submit it is time for a new, better standard.


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

Somehow it seems one of my main points has been lost. Not only do I want larger standard openings on the base plates/table inserts, I also want a new, larger standard size template guide/guide bushing. The main reason for the larger opening is to accommodate the larger template guides. 

I am asking the manufacturers to produce template guides that fit into the larger base plate openings. From my own experience and from other threads over the years, at the very least I ask for Harry's (and Template Tom's/Doak's etc.) 40 mm guide, the 50 mm guide shown by Harry, and a 65 mm guide.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

65mm guide, wow, even I hadn't thought of that! I just popped out to the shed from where I was taking a 15 minute tea break whilst some primer hardens, and I found a short bar of 60mm Aluminium from which I cam make only one such guide Tom, however I may well have material for another 50mm guide, nudge nuge wink wink say no more!


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

If I was a mfg.(manufacturer) of routers (bits) I would say we put bearing on bits now and they do the same job as a guide,you don't need to have a base plate with a small hole in it to use them...

===



mftha said:


> Somehow it seems one of my main points has been lost. Not only do I want larger standard openings on the base plates/table inserts, I also want a new, larger standard size template guide/guide bushing. The main reason for the larger opening is to accommodate the larger template guides.
> 
> I am asking the manufacturers to produce template guides that fit into the larger base plate openings. From my own experience and from other threads over the years, at the very least I ask for Harry's (and Template Tom's/Doak's etc.) 40 mm guide, the 50 mm guide shown by Harry, and a 65 mm guide.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

There certainly are SOME jobs where a bearing bit will do the same job, for instance using a dovetail jig, but there are very many more where that isn't the case and I know that YOU know this to be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth Bob.


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## CharleyL (Feb 28, 2009)

Getting back to the OP question "Why are the small diameter P-C tempate guides the standard?" 

I think that Porter Cable may have been the first to offer guide bushing sets and router bases to accept them, and they kind of set the pace for the other router manufacturers to follow. This then became an industry standard with no Patent that others freely copied. Since the 1/4" collet and the less then 1 hp router were the only size offered at the time, there was no need for anything larger. Today we have much larger routers and a need for larger bushings, but no manufacturer seems to have jumped ahead and offered a bushing set for these larger routers, so no industry wide standard was in place for making them. Each manufacturer seems to have gone off on their own to create their own bushing and base designs. 

Just my thoughts on this. The first to offer a product design is usually the one that others copy if they can.

Charley


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

Thanks Charley
I think you are right.
I think it is time to move on to something better.


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

CharleyL said:


> Getting back to the OP question "Why are the small diameter P-C tempate guides the standard?"
> 
> I think that Porter Cable may have been the first to offer guide bushing sets and router bases to accept them, and they kind of set the pace for the other router manufacturers to follow. This then became an industry standard with no Patent that others freely copied. Since the 1/4" collet and the less then 1 hp router were the only size offered at the time, there was no need for anything larger. Today we have much larger routers and a need for larger bushings, but no manufacturer seems to have jumped ahead and offered a bushing set for these larger routers, so no industry wide standard was in place for making them. Each manufacturer seems to have gone off on their own to create their own bushing and base designs.
> 
> ...


Charley, that makes sense to me.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

"but no manufacturer seems to have jumped ahead and offered a bushing set for these larger routers"

There certainly are manufacturers like Makita and Hitachi to mention just two who sell world wide who have had routers with large openings and template guides up to 40mm for many years. With due respect to American woodworkers, table routing appears to have been the main form of routing, routing magazines, if any are left, surprisingly seldom carried articles to do with plunge routing using templates and template guides. It seems to me that it's forums like this that are making woodworkers, especially newcomers, aware that there is so much more to routing than that which can be done on a router table.


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## CharleyL (Feb 28, 2009)

I agree, Harry. Now what can we do to get the manufacturers to offer a set of the larger sizes of bushings and standardize the mounting of them between manufacturers, or will we continue to be forced into making our own versions. Like router skis, the manufacturers don't seem to be interested.

Charley


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Charley, it's a case of keep asking the stores and then tell them you're going to buy a Makita or Hitachi both of which have large openings and large template guides. Eventually the message WILL get through to the manufacturers. It won't happen overnight but it will happen!


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## cutter79 (Oct 21, 2012)

*Producing templates*

Here is Tom O'Donnell's latest posting on youtube an alternative method of producing a number of Projects . Not suitable for small radii sections as he has introduced a 70mm template Guide (not really but an extension to the 40mm Guide. I suppose the method could also be used with smaller guides and then be able to get into those sharp corners
Sam

producing templates 3 - YouTube


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

I believe BJ has many "doughnuts" to increase his guide sizes.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi James

You are right on, I have 30 with the 1 1/2" center hole (From 50mm to 150 mm) and 30 with the 1" center hole to fit the standard PC guides ( from 1 1/4" to 6" ) and some with a 40mm inside center hole ( from 50mm to 125mm ) just for kicks but I have not used any of the metric ones yet 



I watch Sam's video and it makes scene to me because I have been doing it that way for a long time....

==========


jw2170 said:


> I believe BJ has many "doughnuts" to increase his guide sizes.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Now Bob, when did you last use any of the guides between 50 and 150mm? I really am curious.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Harry

The last time when I was making some oval boxes with lids..and no I didn't take any pictures just made them, it's so easy anyone can do it..one size template and just added the rings to get the job done..

===



harrysin said:


> Now Bob, when did you last use any of the guides between 50 and 150mm? I really am curious.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

For routing the inside and outside of boxes a very large guide IS required for the inside and then a MUCH smaller one for the outside. The reason that I don't do photo-shoots using this method is because very few members even have a guide around 1.5" and unlike you and me, haven't the facilities for making their own.


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