# Dip in Fence?



## tomp913 (Mar 7, 2014)

Haven't been making too much sawdust recently as my wife has me working on other projects but did finish up the check and realignment of my TS. Final step was to check and reset the fence to the miter slot. From my readings, it appears that the fence has a little dip of about .002" in the area of the saw blade - you can see some wear in the anodizing on the face of the fence. Starting next to the rail, the first section shows the fence being straight, it then gradually dips in (away from the blade) to a max of about .003" and then back out to .001" which is what I was shooting for - the fence being parallel to just OPEN at the outer end. I ran out of miter slot so can't tell if the .001" stays constant from there out.

Is it possible to have wear in just that area? - I would have thought that any wear would be in a longer area. When I get some more free time, I can plot the deviation every inch or so from the start point. Would moving the fence out (away from the front) so I'm checking in a different area at the outer end be of any use? I have a friend with a machine shop, and could call him to see if he has a way to measure flatness for the whole length (in the old days, I could just use the CMM at work but no longer). This may be a good reason to buy a good straight edge (36" would probably do it) and see if I can check using feeler gauges.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

*Shock*...it's a TS, for goodness sakes. .002" ?! The Musclechucks have more runout than that, and the general consensus was *"It's for woodworking!" *


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## DonkeyHody (Jan 22, 2015)

My Biesemeyer has about the same amount of dish in it. Never caused a problem that I could blame on it . . .


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## tomp913 (Mar 7, 2014)

@DaninVan @DonkeyHody

Thanks, that's what I wanted to hear. First time I've checked in a while, and I don't usually sweep the length - set the indicator to "0" at the front, move it to the back and jack the setscrews until I get the setting I need (.000" or +.003") and then recheck the front. The new gauge is much smoother when you move it, and you can see the needle move rather than bounce so the reading was a surprise. I've never had a problem with the fence and bad cuts - as you said, it's probably been like that since new over 20 years ago. My buddy let me use his Bridgeport to make a little aluminum adapter block, guess I need to change gears again.

FWIW I looked at the Lee Valley aluminum straight edge - $45 for the 36" length, and the published tolerance is about the same as the dip in the fence. I could go with steel, but I'd be cheaper buying a new fence (and possibly have it just like the old one).


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## DonkeyHody (Jan 22, 2015)

Don't you have at least 0.002" run out in your tablesaw blade? That dish was put in there on purpose by the manufacturer to match the run out of the blade so as to avoid pinching. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.


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## Ghidrah (Oct 21, 2008)

I'm guessing in general the area of fence within the blade footprint is the most stressed part of the fence and would expect it to abrade faster than the rest.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Tom I checked mine when it was fairly new and I was getting simular to your readings and my fence is an Excalibur made of aluminum. I was suprised as I thought I wouldn't see any discrepancies, but I think I was being to critical . 
I own the same dial gauge as you also and used it for the test


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

Could it be the slot in the table is off .001 here and there? Youve gots to be kidding us, we are woodworkers,at least some of us are, and those do-dads with a dail on it doesn't even belong in a woodshop.
Herb


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## hawkeye10 (Jul 28, 2015)

TheCableGuy said:


> Tom I checked mine when it was fairly new and I was getting simular to your readings and my fence is an Excalibur made of aluminum. I was suprised as I thought I wouldn't see any discrepancies, but I think I was being to critical .
> I own the same dial gauge as you also and used it for the test


Larry oh I mean Rick :wink:. Just to let you know my table saw blade, fence, and miter slots are perfect. Just thought you would like to know. > :laugh2: :surprise:


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

hawkeye10 said:


> Just to let you know my table saw blade, fence, and miter slots are perfect. Just thought you would like to know. > :laugh2: :surprise:


Not sure if your serious lol . I thought there would have to be a discrepancy at some point . 
Herb you have me wondering about the miter slot itself


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## tomp913 (Mar 7, 2014)

@DonkeyHody

Don't let's get started blade runout again :crying: Just put in a brand new Freud 6oT which cuts fantastic Cross-cutting oak rails and stiles, the cut surface feels like it's polished. Thinking it's OK, don't want to check and jinx it.
@Ghidrah

There's definitely a wear pattern on the face of the fence, but it's more like the anodizing is scratched than anything else, and pretty uniform along the length. I polished the face with white Scotchbrite before I took my readings so not seeing high spots. 
@TheCableGuy

The Unifence is an aluminum extrusion like the Excaliber, it may just be from the process. I'm pretty anal with my stuff, and sure that it's not been banged or abused - and a "bump" on the fence would probably bend the fence outwards (away from the blade) too. I've got both but usually used the other one but it chatters in the miter slot so I put this one in as a check and got pretty much the same results. I guess I could flip the fence on it's side and check the narrow edge, although I'm not really sure what that would show one way or another.


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## DonkeyHody (Jan 22, 2015)

Herb Stoops said:


> we are woodworkers,at least some of us are, and those do-dads with a dail on it doesn't even belong in a woodshop.
> Herb


Now Herb . . .
Please allow us our little foibles. I only drag out my dial indicator once or twice a year, but it gives me such pleasure. You should try it. Then you can begin to obsess over things that don't really matter too. :nerd:


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Nothing wrong with checking stuff for alignment etc. But knowing when you're golden is the trick. 
My retired machinist neighbor has been giving me a hand occasionally; he just knows when to quit fiddling.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

you realize that you are talking 1/500th's on an inch...
put a piece of scotch tape there and change it to a bump....


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Stick486 said:


> you realize that you are talking 1/500th's on an inch...
> put a piece of scotch tape there and change it to a bump....


Good point Stick . I measured the thickness of a 5 dollar bill and got .0035"


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## Ghidrah (Oct 21, 2008)

Has anyone here ever set their calipers to .002 then tried looking between the jaws? It requires a very bright light to see through the gap, that's twice the diameter of a *"thin"* baby blond human hair.

Dimes to dollars every aspect of the material, bloody tool and the body and brain working them conspire against a perfect cut from ever occurring . Starting about 15 yrs ago I sorta drove myself mental over a 5-6 yr. period trying to improve cuts beyond what I considered framing quality. I bought the Delta and then messed, finessed and threatened it. How could a blade be 90° to the table from one side and not the other?

Nothing is perfect, you get the machine as close to *"right"* and as *"consistent"* as possible, adapt the things that can be and accept the rest


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

This whole discussion is insane, I'd fire the lot of you if I saw you wasting time checking out tools with dial wich-ma call-its. Do you realise the minute you turn around to put that blasted thing in its' case a speck of saw dust unbeknownst to you got drawn to the fence by static attraction and gave you a .001" bump in the fence. 

Pardon me while I go outside and bark at the moon.
Herb


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Herb Stoops said:


> This whole discussion is insane, I'd fire the lot of you


Sounds like we need a Union guys . Any retired shop Stewards here?


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

*It's Under Control...*



TheCableGuy said:


> Sounds like we need a Union guys . Any retired shop Stewards here?


Nurse Ratchet is on duty! :surprise:


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## hawkeye10 (Jul 28, 2015)

TheCableGuy said:


> Not sure if your serious lol . I thought there would have to be a discrepancy at some point .
> Herb you have me wondering about the miter slot itself


Rick I am just kidding. Maybe I should keep my mouth shut. What the other guys are saying is good advice.


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## DonkeyHody (Jan 22, 2015)

Herb Stoops said:


> This whole discussion is insane, I'd fire the lot of you if I saw you wasting time checking out tools with dial wich-ma call-its.
> Pardon me while I go outside and bark at the moon.
> Herb


Now Herb . . .
This from a guy who spends his time making wooden locks that serve no useful purpose except just to show us you can! Maybe the reason you couldn't get the combination lock to work consistently is because you didn't use a dial indicator on your table saw. >

By the time we reach this age, we've all picked up a little obsession or two. I'll allow you yours if you allow me mine. That's why they make chocolate and vanilla.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

DonkeyHody said:


> By the time we reach this age, we've all picked up a little obsession or two. I'll allow you yours if you allow me mine. That's why they make chocolate and vanilla.


at least some of us have our CDO's in order...
an make mine a twist...


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

DonkeyHody said:


> Now Herb . . .
> Please allow us our little foibles. I only drag out my dial indicator once or twice a year, but it gives me such pleasure. You should try it. Then you can begin to obsess over things that don't really matter too. :nerd:


Not really sure about this but I don't think we're allowed to pleasure our foibles on the forum... :grin: :surprise:


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

Ghidrah said:


> Has anyone here ever set their calipers to .002 then tried looking between the jaws? It requires a very bright light to see through the gap, that's twice the diameter of a *"thin"* baby blond human hair.
> 
> Dimes to dollars every aspect of the material, bloody tool and the body and brain working them conspire against a perfect cut from ever occurring . Starting about 15 yrs ago I sorta drove myself mental over a 5-6 yr. period trying to improve cuts beyond what I considered framing quality. I bought the Delta and then messed, finessed and threatened it. How could a blade be 90° to the table from one side and not the other?
> 
> Nothing is perfect, you get the machine as close to *"right"* and as *"consistent"* as possible, adapt the things that can be and accept the rest


And hence the Serenity Prayer...


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## thomas1389 (Jan 4, 2012)

TheCableGuy said:


> Not sure if your serious lol . I thought there would have to be a discrepancy at some point .
> Herb you have me wondering about the miter slot itself


Gotcha!!!


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## DonkeyHody (Jan 22, 2015)

Nickp said:


> Not really sure about this but I don't think we're allowed to pleasure our foibles on the forum... :grin: :surprise:


We have to take our pleasures where we can find them :wink:


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## Garyk (Dec 29, 2011)

.002 = 1/500 If you can machine wood to 1/500 of an inch I want to come watch you work....


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

In a completely innocent way, he asks, maybe locking the fence down introduces a microscopic (temporary) deformation/flex?
I still say it's an irrelevant amount, but it would be interesting to know if an extrusion can flex by that small a degree...


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

I meant to comment earlier on that very clever Woodpecker gauge mounting device. Using a machined rod just slightly larger in dia. than the slot is brilliant.


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## Ghidrah (Oct 21, 2008)

I should read my posts before replying, I meant to say the finest human hair is twice the diameter. I shoulda held off on the medication.

Nickp,
Arte you referencing Frank Costanza from Seinfeld?


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

DaninVan said:


> I meant to comment earlier on that very clever Woodpecker gauge mounting device. Using a machined rod just slightly larger in dia. than the slot is brilliant.


Is the moon perfectly round, better get my dial telescope and measure it,might effect the tide by .001".

Herb


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## tomp913 (Mar 7, 2014)

DaninVan said:


> In a completely innocent way, he asks, maybe locking the fence down introduces a microscopic (temporary) deformation/flex?
> I still say it's an irrelevant amount, but it would be interesting to know if an extrusion can flex by that small a degree...


In a Unifence, the extrusion is suspended off the table and fastened to the side of the "T" - the locking of the assembly happens at the rail so doesn't involve the extrusion. Somehow I don't think that the force from the indicator stem is enough to deflect the fence.

I normally use the A-Line-It for checking the fence, and the whole process takes probably less than a minute - drop the fixture in the slot, move the fence over to load the indicator, set to zero and move the assembly to the outer end of the fence. If adjustment is needed, you can do it with the indicator still reading on the fence, and turn the screw to move the fence and get the alignment needed. A quick move back to the starting point to recheck and you're done - way quicker than my typing. I only noticed the dip in the fence this time because I used the Woodpecker unit which moves way smoother than the A-Line-It which bounces a little because of the spring-loaded plunger that keep the bar tight in the slot and could actually see the in-out movement of the plunger. 

I'm pretty sure what I'm seeing is wear - as minimal as it is - in the area around the blade and am thinking that it's caused by the way I cut sheet stock on the saw. Working by myself, I have the fence sticking out the front of the saw by about 6 inches and start the cut standing to the left side of the sheet. As I start the cut. I'm pushing from the back and opposite corner from the one that's touching the fence, and keep feeding like this until the sheet is well into the cut at which point I move behind the sheet more. As was mentioned earlier as a possibility, this area has seen more wear over the 20+ years of running sheet goods through the saw because of my pushing the front corner/edge of the sheet against the fence as I'm starting the cut.

The Woodpecker gauge is a very clever idea - the two small rods/upper large slot automatically adjust to any slot, and don't go out adjustment like the spring-loaded plungers on other designs. It's not as versatile as the A-Line-It which can be reconfigured for other measurements.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Herb Stoops said:


> Is the moon perfectly round, better get my dial telescope and measure it,might effect the tide by .001".
> 
> Herb


November = King tides!
Panic in the streets!!!
Vancouver piles sandbags as king tides pose potential flood risk | CTV Vancouver News

Ooh! Ooh!! Climate change!!! >


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## Pots43 (Nov 4, 2012)

You guys are a hoot. You need .002 to .003 clearance to slide a precision ground rod in a perfect hole.


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## Ghidrah (Oct 21, 2008)

Connecting rod bearing to crank clearance Ingersol Rand Inline 8, .006


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