# Are all router bits the same?



## woodbit (Jul 8, 2009)

Hi -

I'm new to the forum, but figured this is a great place to ask this question. Is there really a difference between the different "brands" of router bits? Isn't a carbide router bit a carbide router bit? I would like to hear everyone's opinions.


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## Dr.Zook (Sep 10, 2004)

Welcome to the RouterForums Matt.


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## derek willis (Jan 21, 2009)

Matt, there is a great deal of difference between the cheap ones and the better quality ones. We don't get the makes you have over there, but in my opinion, based on usage, the best that we can obtain are wealden, C.M.T. and Trend, I would go so far as to say that the Trend cutters far exceed any other in lasting sharpness but are a great deal more expensive, it is all down to the grade of carbide used, the smaller the grains the better the quality.


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## Mike Wingate (Apr 26, 2009)

Quality of the carbide. The brazing, balance and the difference of size, only a few thou difference can make a huge difference in joint making. I buy Trend, CMT and MLCS bits.


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## xplorx4 (Dec 1, 2008)

Greetings Matt and welcome to the router forum.


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## Drew Eckhardt (Aug 2, 2008)

woodbit said:


> Hi -
> 
> I'm new to the forum, but figured this is a great place to ask this question. Is there really a difference between the different "brands" of router bits?


Yes.



> Isn't a carbide router bit a carbide router bit?


No.

Carbide thickness (thickness correlates to less tear-out, and obviously allows the bit to be sharpened more times), particle size, metallurgy, and hook and shear angles all vary.

Cut quality (especially tearouts where you start getting grain reversals) and lifetime vary significantly between bits.

A great bit won't be inexpensive but otherwise price and quality don't correlate.

http://www.provenwoodworking.com/support-files/router-bits-test.pdf
http://www.whitesiderouterbits.com/ToolTestRouterBits.pdf


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## Mike Wingate (Apr 26, 2009)

I have just done a drawer slide using the Incra jig. My double dovetails slide fine as the 1/2" dovetail bit measures 0.507". A bit loose for glued joints. I can compensate or try another bit.


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Matt, while the answer to your question has been given above I wonder if this is the question you really meant to ask? Perhaps you are trying to decide on how much to spend on your router bits? Here is some information which may help in your decision. Premium router bits will far out last typical bits. Whiteside, CMT, Amana and Freud are in this group. Next will be average quality bits such as MLCS, Bosch, PC, Eagle America, Woodline, Rockler and Freud's Avanti bit line. There are other brand names that fit this catagory so ask if you have a specific question These bits are some what better than off brand bits and will handle most jobs. Last comes off brand bits. Some of these will work ok and others will be out of tolerance which can really screw up your project. All of these bits will cut the profile shown. Some of the cheaper bits will leave fuzzy edges and burn marks on your wood. I suggest you pick a middle of the road bit to get started. Buy your bits as you need them so you do not have a huge investment until you learn how much you will use each type of bit. At that point it pays to buy the better quality bits, and of course keep an eye open for sales. Today I bought an ogee fillet bit at 50% off from Rockler. It will not see a lot of use so there is no reason to spend more money for a premium bit. I hope you find this information useful.


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## Rutabagared (Jun 18, 2009)

I agree with much of what Mike and the others have already stated. I want to add that Rockler is selling off a variety of Porter Cable bits for $4.99 each through the end of the month. As you could imagine, they are going fast. I've used several and would rate the quality somewhere between premium and average quality. This offer is only good at the retail stores. Most bits are 1/4" shank but several had 1/2" shanks including, 3/4" and 1/2" straight, and 1/2" round over. If you live near a retail location, I would suggest stopping by.

Joe


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## jschaben (Jun 21, 2009)

Rutabagared said:


> I agree with much of what Mike and the others have already stated. I want to add that Rockler is selling off a variety of Porter Cable bits for $4.99 each through the end of the month. As you could imagine, they are going fast. I've used several and would rate the quality somewhere between premium and average quality. This offer is only good at the retail stores. Most bits are 1/4" shank but several had 1/2" shanks including, 3/4" and 1/2" straight, and 1/2" round over. If you live near a retail location, I would suggest stopping by.
> 
> Joe


Joe, I think those prices are good internet also. I didn't order any PC but I did order the Oldham lock mitre off the same ad.


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## woodbit (Jul 8, 2009)

Thanks for all the replies and tips.

So are there metrics or ratings by which I can measure the quality of a router bit? like a carbide hardness rating or something? How do I compare different brands router bits? Hopefully I'm not beating a dead horse here or being too technical... 

But I noticed the article in Fine Woodworking - the one name Whiteside router bits as Editor's choice - the performance of each router bit was determined by a panel of judges looking at the strip of wood each bit shaped...but that's not a specification that you can attach to a product's package. Am I making any sense?

BTW, thanks for tip on the Rockler sale.


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## derek willis (Jan 21, 2009)

I extolled the quality and virtue of Trend bits the other day, but day before yesterday I had a disaster with my rabetting bit, comes with set of bearings and costs about £50:00, most of the carbide broke off one side, and I was only honing it!!!!
E. mailed Trend, it has been returned by freepost, waiting a verdict, will keep you informed.


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

Unfortunately, it's not that simple, Matt. You could get the best carbide but the brazing that holds the carbide to the steel shank could be weak or out of tolerance dimensionally. The best way I know of is word of mouth.. in forums like this and (to some extent) tool reviews in woorworking magazines.

For example, if I want to buy a top-quality table saw blade, I"ll buy a Forrest. Some here may feel another is even better and maybe they are. All I know is by buying a Forrest Woodworker II I'll get a good quality blade that will last. They have a reputation for good quality and good quality control. Does that mean I could not buy a bad one? No. But I know Forreswt will stand behind their products, just as I've learned here that Bosch has gone over the top standing behind their routers for some users here.

By buying bits as you need them, you can try several brands until you find out what you like.

The guys recommendations for brand / quality assessments is the consensus I hear from many others on this forum. 

Jim


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

Ouch, Derek! Good luck on the outcome.. and keep us all posted.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

woodbit said:


> Hi -
> 
> I'm new to the forum, but figured this is a great place to ask this question. Is there really a difference between the different "brands" of router bits? Isn't a carbide router bit a carbide router bit? I would like to hear everyone's opinions.


Hi Woodbit:

I've asked similar questions before with mixed results. I refer you to the following article: 

Router Bits- how to choose the best router bit .

It was originallly posted to the forum by the president, Tom Walz. If you poke around the various manufacturer's sites, you find scraps of information that you'll have to assemble into something cohesive and then weed out the garbage.

I have yet to find qualification as to why one bit is so much more expensive than another. Everyone cites quality of materials, construction, processes and a myriad of other excuses but noone has a definitive answer. For example, most (good) bits are sharpened on a CNC grinder. All companies use the same technology and most use the same machines. Now, either the machine is setup and programmed correctly, or it isn't. Why would company "X" sell their bits for 3x the price of company "Y" citing "CNC quality control" when they both use the same materials, processes and equipment?

Do you smell a rat? The worst part of it is, cheap bits are cheap bits and expensive ones are usually good.

Allthunbs


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## derek willis (Jan 21, 2009)

Allthumbs, that is probably the best bit of advice so far.


_Do you smell a rat? The worst part of it is, cheap bits are cheap bits and expensive ones are usually good._


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Matt, while there is no scale or rating method in place that lists which bits are best to worst you can follow the guide lines in my last post. Those are based on magazine testing by different magazines, (No need to yell about payolla for advertising) the ratings developed by making cuts in various types of wood and how long they last. For those who are comfy with his opinion, Norm uses Whiteside bits.(They are not a show sponsor for the NYW) Whiteside are made in the USA, CMT and Freud are made in Italy and Amana are made in Israel. These 4 brands use the thicker, finer grained carbide which lasts longer and can be resharpened more times than other brands. Freud also sells bit under the Avanti name and these are not premium bits but still very good quality, the carbide is not as thick and they do not get the special coating Freud bits get. Bosch recently bought out the bits and blades divisions of Freud, they do not mess with a good thing. Any of the average quality bits will serve you well. This is not brain surgery, or if you prefer... these bits are "Good enough for the kind of girls we go with."


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## istracpsboss (Sep 14, 2008)

derek willis said:


> I extolled the quality and virtue of Trend bits the other day, but day before yesterday I had a disaster with my rabetting bit, comes with set of bearings and costs about £50:00, most of the carbide broke off one side, and I was only honing it!!!!
> E. mailed Trend, it has been returned by freepost, waiting a verdict, will keep you informed.


Hi Derek

I must admit I was surprised at you rating Trend so highly earlier. Their stuff is OK, but it's mostly Chinese. I've seen lots of their stuff on a Chinese supplier's site.

My rabetting bit is CMT, as I'd thought it worth splashing out more for a cutter that would get a lot of use and was pleasantly surprised when Axminster had the ones with replaceable tips on offer, some months back, complete with three different bearings, that I bagged for something like 22 Quid. 
For cutters that I'm not likely to use so much and won't need so often I've been happy enough with Chinese.

Cheers

Peter


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## istracpsboss (Sep 14, 2008)

Mike said:


> Whiteside are made in the USA, CMT and Freud are made in Italy and Amana are made in Israel.
> 
> Bosch recently bought out the bits and blades divisions of Freud, they do not mess with a good thing.


Interestingly, the only two Bosch bits I have are both marked, Made in China. I wonder how long the Freud production has got ?http://www.routerforums.com/images/smilies/sad.gif

Cheers

Peter


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## derek willis (Jan 21, 2009)

Peter, although I may rate them pretty high, and I do, because they keep their edge much longer than most, I don't have many, I bought the Trend rabetting bit because of its ability to cut varying widths of rebate, I do own four other rebating cutters, one of which is a heavy duty 1/2" shank bit from Screwfix and is a superb cutter and is my most used one at present.


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## Billat908 (Jun 25, 2009)

My bits run from Chinese to Whiteside. I have slowly come to realize that Whiteside is worth the extra money. Although the Porter Cable Taiwan bits on sale are a decent value if you can find the ones you want.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

> These 4 brands use the thicker, finer grained carbide which lasts longer and can be resharpened more times than other brands.


What is this "finer grained carbide" called? How do we know what carbide a manufacturer uses when he won't say so in his specifications?

What are the different carbides that are available? Is it possible to alloy carbides i.e. mix two different grades like a lamination? 

What is the best method of attaching carbide to the body of the bit? glue? weld? braizing? screws?

Is there a cooling element in the body of the bit and what is the best material to conduct heat away from the carbide?

Any other reasonable questions to be considered as well please.

Allthunbs


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## istracpsboss (Sep 14, 2008)

Incidentally, Holbren, from whom several of us got some nice cheap undersized plywood bits earlier in the year, Holbren usually have Whiteside stuff at good prices.

(No connection. just a satisfied customer)


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## istracpsboss (Sep 14, 2008)

allthunbs said:


> What is this "finer grained carbide" called? How do we know what carbide a manufacturer uses when he won't say so in his specifications?
> 
> What are the different carbides that are available?
> 
> Allthunbs


There is quite a bit on here Carbide Router Bits | Router Bit Sets | Shaper Cutters | Saw Blades | Planer Knives | Jointer Knives | Infinity Cutting Tools

Cheers

Peter


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

istracpsboss said:


> There is quite a bit on here Carbide Router Bits | Router Bit Sets | Shaper Cutters | Saw Blades | Planer Knives | Jointer Knives | Infinity Cutting Tools
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Peter


Thanks Peter. Going reading.

Allthunbs


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## Billat908 (Jun 25, 2009)

Part of the problem is that, ultimately, we must rely on the seller to be honest with us. These days, so many products are outsourced, and often surreptiously subbed-out by the supposed supplier, that we really have no way of judging quality. And one batch may be different from the last, either due to a change in material or production or a change in supplier. Even the same well-known old-line brand puts their label on bits made in different factories in different countries. Brand loyalty is harder to justify than it used to be. 

Many companies make nothing any more, they just market something made by the supplier of the moment. This makes choosing really hard.


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## Rutabagared (Jun 18, 2009)

Billat908 said:


> My bits run from Chinese to Whiteside. I have slowly come to realize that Whiteside is worth the extra money. Although the Porter Cable Taiwan bits on sale are a decent value if you can find the ones you want.


Bill,
This is what happened to my Porter Cable bit after about 10 feet of MDF. I payed $5 on clearance at Rockler.


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## Billat908 (Jun 25, 2009)

Rutabagared said:


> Bill,
> This is what happened to my Porter Cable bit after about 10 feet of MDF. I payed $5 on clearance at Rockler.
> 
> View attachment 26451


EEK. My Taiwan PC bits are what I would call medium quality, but, so far, none of them have grenaded. Knock on wood. I find that they don't stay very sharp on MDF or laminate, but are OK on wood, particularly softer woods. 

I am at the point where I have no brand loyalty any more, unless the company still makes its own product. Once manufacturing is outsourced to a third-world country, the quality is no longer assured. The big companies seem only interested in the initial sale, with no thought toward creating satisfied customers who will buy from them again.


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## Rutabagared (Jun 18, 2009)

Billat908 said:


> EEK. My Taiwan PC bits are what I would call medium quality, but, so far, none of them have grenaded. Knock on wood. I find that they don't stay very sharp on MDF or laminate, but are OK on wood, particularly softer woods.
> 
> I am at the point where I have no brand loyalty any more, unless the company still makes its own product. Once manufacturing is outsourced to a third-world country, the quality is no longer assured. The big companies seem only interested in the initial sale, with no thought toward creating satisfied customers who will buy from them again.


Bill,
I agree. It seems that few companies get by without sourcing at least some raw materials, machining, etc. For instance, according to Freud, who make their own carbide, most bit manufactures source carbide from common sources that serve the metal industry.

Joe


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

Rutabagared said:


> Bill,
> This is what happened to my Porter Cable bit after about 10 feet of MDF. I payed $5 on clearance at Rockler.
> 
> View attachment 26451


Man, Joe...

Where did you get your MDF? Andy's MDF Supply & Concrete Fabrication? 

I know PC doesn't make top-tier bits but (especially being a newby) I bought an "inexpensive" PC 1-1/2"x1/2"x1/2" bit to trim the MDF for my new router table, figuring I'd likely burn it if the MDF didn't kill it. After trimming the 34x52" and cutting the lift through-hole I was surprised to see the bit looked like new (after cleaning with MS to remove a bit of adhesive and other build-up).

I must have been lucky. Maybe yours was made on a Monday! <g>


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## derek willis (Jan 21, 2009)

Send it back, demand a free replacement, defective goods are not to be tolerated.


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## Duane867 (Oct 25, 2008)

That's definitely not a normal occurrence. I've fried'em cutting MDF but never chipped'em.


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## Rutabagared (Jun 18, 2009)

Strange indeed. I wasn't pushing the bit at all. Makes me a bit apprehensive about using the other four PC bits I picked up that day. Who knows where the chip went (as it released at 25,000rpm!) - as long as it wasn't in me! I will be returning to the retailer.

quote
"I must have been lucky. Maybe yours was made on a Monday!"

. . . or Friday near quitting time.

Joe


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

derek willis said:


> Send it back, demand a free replacement, defective goods are not to be tolerated.


Hear! Hear!

I love Ridgid. Everything I've got with their brand on it is guaranteed for life, including batteries. I love it. I figure what I've got will last me the rest of my life.

Allthunbs


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Rutabagared said:


> Who knows where the chip went (as it released at 25,000rpm!) - as long as it wasn't in me!


That's why I always build my router tables with a "skirt" within the bit's trajectory. Usually a goodly 2x4 is all it takes.

Allthunbs


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## Duane867 (Oct 25, 2008)

allthunbs said:


> Hear! Hear!
> 
> I love Ridgid. Everything I've got with their brand on it is guaranteed for life, including batteries. I love it. I figure what I've got will last me the rest of my life.
> 
> Allthunbs


Love Rigid my self. Got a little rigid shop vac that wont die and a rigid contractor grade saws all that would probably saw a tank in two, and a Rigid compound miter that's kick but as well. Never had an issue but I know I can send it back to be fixed any time if I do.


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## Billat908 (Jun 25, 2009)

Rutabagared said:


> Strange indeed. I wasn't pushing the bit at all. Makes me a bit apprehensive about using the other four PC bits I picked up that day. Who knows where the chip went (as it released at 25,000rpm!) - as long as it wasn't in me! I will be returning to the retailer.
> 
> quote
> "I must have been lucky. Maybe yours was made on a Monday!"
> ...





allthunbs said:


> That's why I always build my router tables with a "skirt" within the bit's trajectory. Usually a goodly 2x4 is all it takes.
> 
> Allthunbs


I bought some of those, too. So far, so good, but perhaps I should wear a flak vest when using them.


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## Drew Eckhardt (Aug 2, 2008)

Rutabagared said:


> Bill,
> This is what happened to my Porter Cable bit after about 10 feet of MDF. I payed $5 on clearance at Rockler.
> 
> View attachment 26451


While un-impressed with the quality of my Porter Cable bits (they cost more than Whiteside but don't cut as well as the $5 specials from Woodcraft) I might look at the MDF first.

People have found interesting metal things in their box-store Chinese MDF.

Some one on one of the web forums came across a piece of basketball in their Chinese sheet goods, although I don't remember if that was plywood or MDF.


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## Pherdnut (Jan 26, 2009)

I'm pretty new to it. At this time I have a dirt cheap set of Chinese 1/4" ebay junk bits that was so cheap I picked up for the heck of it, a small MLCS set that I think is perfectly adequate for 'learning bits' and a 2.5" diameter Whiteside table edge bit that I went with a known top quality brand on specifically because when carving out a profile that big at 20K RPM, I don't want any problems.

The Chinese junk is junk. The edges are rough and too thin to bother sharpening. The price was less than a dollar a bit. I might as well have gotten them out of a gumball machine. They're more of a curiosity than anything I plan on using but if I'm on a really soft, cheap, wood, need a 1/4" and the alternative is going to the store or waiting on a bit in the mail, I'd try 'em out.

The MLCS set seems okay, but I think I'm going to have them sharpened as you can see milling marks on the edges and I've heard this is a good way to compensate for cheaper bits. For the most part their bases are fairly even but never flawless. One had some kind of bubble that popped on the brazing right behind a blade that I'm not sure is worth using but again I'm in 3+ bucks a bit territory on these so I'm not especially upset about that. The brazing on the bits is generally pretty well balanced but is slightly mottled. I've used one and it's definitely a rougher cut than the Whiteside but they all require some finishing and I haven't tried any of these bits on more demanding wood yet.

The Whiteside bit is perfect. The base is flawless and perfectly balanced and the blade is thick and perfectly clean. It's a big high quality bit so it cost more than all my other bits combined but it's very clear that Whiteside ain't messin' around. And I have to admit, it feels good to see we're still doing something properly in the US. If I paid too much for it I at least have the comfort of knowing I'll never have to pay too much for one like it again.

In my experience with other tools, cost doesn't always have a direct correlation to quality where bits and blades are concerned but quality does have a direct correlation to performance. The right bit or blade can make a crummy tool seem worthwhile right up until the motor seizes up on you and the silly thing lights on fire. But yeah, the best ones are never cheap.

Whiteside is popular because it competes with the highest quality bits but tends to not cost quite as much. The difference in quality is highly visible between it and the MLCS bits and there is as much of a gap between them and the crummy Chinese bits on ebay.

My recommendation is that you start with something like a small MLCS bit set and as you find yourself using certain ones more regularly, try upgrading to a higher quality bit in the 20-30 range (or just borrow one) to see how you feel about the difference. I wouldn't bother with one of the 30+ bit sets but a 12er to get started and have some variety to fall back on for new projects you might not have nicer bits for right away seems reasonable to me.

I'd do research on all the major power-tool companies' bits before purchasing. They tend to be universally expensive and the quality is all over the place. I think you can tell a lot about a bit just by looking at it if you know what to look for though.

I think I'll be looking at Whiteside first from now on for mainstay and large or especially fine bits where I don't really want to take risks on quality but I wouldn't think twice about using ones from the MLCS set I have on a new project. That opinion may shift as I get better at this stuff or start doing horrible things to more expensive wood though.


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## Pherdnut (Jan 26, 2009)

Speaking of power tool brand bits, does anybody have an opinion of the Milwaukee bits? I was tempted by this one:

Amazon.com: MILWAUKEE Router Bit CBD 2-19/32" TABLE EDGE Part # 48-23-7165: Home Improvement

...but I'm a bit of a fanboy for their power tools so I didn't trust my judgment on the matter. It looks well-made though. How about Bosch? I know they make great jigsaw blades and I've been wondering if that translates to all their other blades 'n bits.


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## Rutabagared (Jun 18, 2009)

Pherdnut said:


> Speaking of power tool brand bits, does anybody have an opinion of the Milwaukee bits? I was tempted by this one:
> 
> Amazon.com: MILWAUKEE Router Bit CBD 2-19/32" TABLE EDGE Part # 48-23-7165: Home Improvement
> 
> ...but I'm a bit of a fanboy for their power tools so I didn't trust my judgment on the matter. It looks well-made though. How about Bosch? I know they make great jigsaw blades and I've been wondering if that translates to all their other blades 'n bits.


Hi Erik,
I have several Bosch bits and they are good quality. They produce a fine finish and are durable.

Joe


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## Billat908 (Jun 25, 2009)

Pherdnut said:


> I have a dirt cheap set of Chinese 1/4" ebay junk bits. The Chinese junk is junk. The edges are rough and too thin to bother sharpening. The price was less than a dollar a bit. I might as well have gotten them out of a gumball machine. They're more of a curiosity than anything I plan on using but if I'm on a really soft, cheap, wood, need a 1/4" and the alternative is going to the store or waiting on a bit in the mail, I'd try 'em out.
> 
> I think I'll be looking at Whiteside first from now on for mainstay and large or especially fine bits where I don't really want to take risks on quality.


I use my Chinese bits for the first few passes, and finish up with the Whiteside or other higher quality bits. I have been very happy with the price-to-quality ratio on Whiteside. 

Despite their low quality, I would buy them again, for jobs where quality is not critical. Like storage bins, shop or garage shelving, etc. I have made some pretty low-quality stuff with those bits, but that is OK for projects where appearance does not count too much. I save my better bits and my better skills ))for the more important projects.


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## Frank Lee (Nov 29, 2008)

*? ? ?*



woodbit said:


> Hi -
> 
> I'm new to the forum, but figured this is a great place to ask this question. Is there really a difference between the different "brands" of router bits? Isn't a carbide router bit a carbide router bit? I would like to hear everyone's opinions.


Odd question for some one with such excellent abilites:sad:


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## carolinchicago (Mar 31, 2010)

*No thread too old -- Avanti bits*



Billat908 said:


> I use my Chinese bits for the first few passes, and finish up with the Whiteside or other higher quality bits. I have been very happy with the price-to-quality ratio on Whiteside. . . .


This sounds like a good approach for me. I bought a starter set of Freud Avanti (half-inch shank) on sale at Rockler (brick and mortar) yesterday. I was getting nervous reading the reviews, but I think they will be fine to learn on and to make "first passes."


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## istracpsboss (Sep 14, 2008)

Hi Carol

There is nothing wrong with Freud bits. They even make their own carbide. If you managed to get them at a good price, well done! Freud are one of the leading European manufacturers.

Cheers

Peter


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Carol, the real cost of routing is in the bits. All bits will need to be sharpened or replaced over time. Premium bits are worth the extra money since they last longer, but there is nothing wrong with buying inexpensive bits. I suggest the best way to start is to purchase the ten most commonly used bits in a low priced brand then replace them with premium bits as needed. It will save you money in the long run to purchase a set of solid carbide spiral up cut bits in 1/4", 3/8" and 1/2" sizes. These bits have a much longer life and make cleaner cuts. You will need different bits for specific projects that will not see much use so it makes sense to buy these in less expensive brands. Never use damaged bits, but do not throw them away. Mark them with paint so they will not be used and save them in a coffee can. When the can is full you can sell them as scrap carbide and use the money for replacement bits.


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

derek willis said:


> Matt, there is a great deal of difference between the cheap ones and the better quality ones. We don't get the makes you have over there, but in my opinion, based on usage, the best that we can obtain are wealden, C.M.T. and Trend


Hear! Hear! I'd agree with that, CMT and Trend are good makes as is Freud, Titman is probably a tad better, whilst Wealden is a very good bit at a reasonable price. The USA equivalent to Trend would be Amana who source many of their cutters from the same factory in Israel(?). I'm also of the opinion that you'll often get what you pay for in router cutters.

Phil


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