# Rockwell old table saw problem



## Cfdaneri (Jan 25, 2015)

Hi. I'm new to the forum. I have an OLD Rockwell 34-580 table that worked fine in the past. Recently, after turning the saw on it's side in order to mount some casters, the saw overloaded. That problem is cleared, but now I'm unable to tighten the nut holding the saw blade. I can hold the blade with a block of wood, but the nut and shaft just spin, not allowing either tightening or loosening.

Any idea what may be wrong with the saw, or what I may be doing wrong.

Thanks for any ideas.


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## old55 (Aug 11, 2013)

Welcome to the forum Charlie. I can't help with your question but am sure someone will be along to give advice.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

This can't be the solution because it's to darn obvious , but by chance did the inner spacer that sits on the back side of blade slide off the arbour shaft ? 

Btw welcome to the forum


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## kklowell (Dec 26, 2014)

I think that's at least a very good possibility.


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## Cfdaneri (Jan 25, 2015)

A little more info. The spacer is still intact. The motor shaft spins freely. Should it? Because it spins, when I put the wrench on the nut, there's nothing to "hold" it. When I power the saw on, the motor does run, but of course there's no cutting power since the blade spins.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Hi Charlie and welcome. The above is one good possibility. I'm assuming you've always used 2 wrenches to tighten the blade down as I've never seen a hobbyist saw that didn't use that method. Is the saw blade sitting in the same position? I'm thinking of the washer's on a circular saw that have 2 flat sides that go over the flats on the arbor shaft. Maybe the inner one slipped and isn't seated? Just a thought. Turning it on it's side shouldn't have done anything but loosen a bunch of sawdust. There is no way I can imagine doing that having an effect on the blade and arbor.


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## Cfdaneri (Jan 25, 2015)

*Picture of saw blade shaft*



Cherryville Chuck said:


> Hi Charlie and welcome. The above is one good possibility. I'm assuming you've always used 2 wrenches to tighten the blade down as I've never seen a hobbyist saw that didn't use that method. Is the saw blade sitting in the same position? I'm thinking of the washer's on a circular saw that have 2 flat sides that go over the flats on the arbor shaft. Maybe the inner one slipped and isn't seated? Just a thought. Turning it on it's side shouldn't have done anything but loosen a bunch of sawdust. There is no way I can imagine doing that having an effect on the blade and arbor.


I inherited this saw from a friend and haven't used it much, but it worked fine. I haven't had to replace a blade yet. There were no tools for removing the blade. I've attached a picture of the shaft, blade and nut. As you can see, there's almost no room between the blade and the motor side, and the spacer washer does not have a flat surface to hold with a wrench. When I use a 1" wrench on the nut, it just spins the shaft, even when blocking the blade.

There is probably something stupid I'm not doing, but I'm at a lose. Next step is to dis-assemble the saw and see if that turns up anything.


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## BrianS (Nov 7, 2004)

This is a direct drive saw, and not a belt drive? 

If it's a belt drive, ie an older contractor style, you might be able to hold the belt and stop the shaft from turning. I know on some older saws there was no provision for an extra wrench to hold the shaft.


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

Is it possible there is another spacer washer missing between the nut and the outer flat washer...? I'm thinking the nut might be bottoming out on the shaft portion of the shaft where there are no more threads.

I would take the blade off, put the outer washer and nut back on and see if the nut is able to go far enough to have held the blade. 

Did you have the blade off when you turned it on its side...? maybe a spacer fell off without you knowing it.

Did you replace the blade for a thin-kerf blade after re-assembling...? again, an indication that you might be missing a spacer.

If it turns out to be that the nut is bottoming out at the end of the threads you may be able to add a spacer between the outer washer and the nut to give you some thread room.

Helpful if you post a picture without outer washer and nut...just to see what the threads and shaft look like...


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## Cfdaneri (Jan 25, 2015)

It's direct drive- however, that got me looking. On the side panel of the saw housing, there's an access hole about 1/2". Inserting a long screwdriver allowed me to "lock" the fins of the motor. Then tightening/loosening the nut was easy.

Thanks for all your replies


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## john60 (Aug 30, 2014)

Check the end of the shaft to see if it will take an allen key
That is what my radial arm takes


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

Cfdaneri said:


> It's direct drive- however, that got me looking. On the side panel of the saw housing, there's an access hole about 1/2". Inserting a long screwdriver allowed me to "lock" the fins of the motor. Then tightening/loosening the nut was easy.
> 
> Thanks for all your replies


I'm thinking it's probably not a good idea to use the motor fins to hold the shaft.

I did a quick check in the manual and it describes using a block of wood against the blade teeth to tighten the nut.

Parts diagram does not show any additional spacers than what you have so my original thought is probably not appropriate.

I would take another peek at the threads to make sure there are no burrs on the threads where the nut tightens all the way down. It might not need too much pressure on the motor fins to tighten the nut but it might take a heck of a lot more to loosen it after it has run.

Just a thought...Nick

Take everything off the shaft, inspect closely and wire brush the threads. Clean the threads of the nut also...


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## dutchman 46 (May 23, 2007)

Another thing to check: remove the blade and nut and put the nut and washer on the outside, ( assign a box or a place for the blade, and nut and washer to the outer side of blade. NEXT, remove the washer, or washers from the shaft, and show them on the inside of the blade. Check the inner washers for a flat spot on the inside of washer that is a spot that would only be useable on a special shaft with a flat spot ! Only the washer, and the shaft could be married together. What I am trying to say, is that the saw will not work correctly until these parts are on the shaft, and would be normally washer against saw, and nut on the inside, or a washer type which is machined as one! the flat washer will not move until the shaft is powered. check the shaft for a flat spot or a key of some sort to act as a brake. This is a safety action to keep the saw, and blade in one piece in case the blade gets squashed, or can not move. Check that the proper washer is in place if you have one. It's long for helping anyone to grip what I am saying, if I haven't lost all of You Please respond if You can say it and make it more understandable Thank You! The Dutchman!


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

"...there's an access hole about 1/2""
Is that end of the shaft bored out for an Allen key. I can't remember what tool I had (have?) that used that method for locking/turning the shaft of the motor.
_Check the threaded end of the shaft as well!_


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

I think Howard is explaining a safety feature...if the blade is not on right when the motor stops the blade will want to keep going. Unfortunately, the blade continuing to spin after the motor has stopped driving the blade, will also try to loosen the blade and nut.

I believe Howard is asking you to check the motor shaft to see if there is a flat spot on it and if there is a corresponding flat spot on the inside of the washer(s)...sort of like a keyway might do. This would force the washers to only go on in one orientation.

Another question...are the washers the ones that belong on the saw or are they replacement washers that may have been laying around...? Washers/spacers for the blade are not just regular hardware washers...make sure you have the right washers/spacers.

I hope I got Howard's point right...? The message is that you may not have found the problem yet and you are faced with a safety issue...a very dangerous one...

Nick


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

You say that there were no wrenches that came with the saw. I have an old Rockwell, I can't say it is the same one without going for a look, but it came with 2 wrenches, both stamped out of steel and about 1/8" thick. I can't remember if the one goes on the inner washer or the shaft but that's how you hold it to tighten it. DO NOT STICK ANYTHING IN THE MOTOR. If you can't find one of the stamped steel wrenches take a cheap one the right size and grind it down until it will go in place. If you aren't sure what size you need you can buy a cheap plastic caliper for under $5 to measure it with. I'll head out to my shop in a bit and see what model mine is and what size the wrench is for it. Good chance it will be the same.


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

dutchman 46 said:


> Another thing to check: remove the blade and nut and put the nut and washer on the outside, ( assign a box or a place for the blade, and nut and washer to the outer side of blade. NEXT, remove the washer, or washers from the shaft, and show them on the inside of the blade. Check the inner washers for a flat spot on the inside of washer that is a spot that would only be useable on a special shaft with a flat spot ! Only the washer, and the shaft could be married together. What I am trying to say, is that the saw will not work correctly until these parts are on the shaft, and would be normally washer against saw, and nut on the inside, or a washer type which is machined as one! the flat washer will not move until the shaft is powered. check the shaft for a flat spot or a key of some sort to act as a brake. This is a safety action to keep the saw, and blade in one piece in case the blade gets squashed, or can not move. Check that the proper washer is in place if you have one. It's long for helping anyone to grip what I am saying, if I haven't lost all of You Please respond if You can say it and make it more understandable Thank You! The Dutchman!


I think what you're trying to say is that the inner washer might fit over a flat notch on the shaft and the outer washer might not,thus if they are reversed they wouldn't tighten?

All the above are good suggestions,hmmmmmm................

You might turn the shaft and see if there are 2 flat spots for a wrench milled into the shaft behind the inner washer for a wrench to fit on. 

Also if that is a thin kerf blade it might have dropped into the threads instead of the smooth shoulder of the shaft. 

Some of the portable saws won't take a thin kerf blade without a spacer, if that is the case the spacer must have been lost when you tipped it over,assuming you had the blade off then. Check the saw blade thickness, if it is less than 1/8" it is thin kerf.

How did you loosen the blade?

DON"T USE THE FINS TO LOCK THE MOTOR, you will bend/break them and set up vibrations ruining the motor.

Since you tightened it by using the fins, then to me it means that the threads need to be cleaned so you can finger tighten ,then block the blade and use a wrench for final tightening.

I am having trouble with the model # 34-580, all the series 34 are belt drive, the benchtop models seem to be RK series.

According to what I can find the Rockwell 34-580 is a belt driven,not a direct drive. unless this isn't the same saw as pdf

http://www.routerforums.com/delta-manuals/42602-rockwell-34-580-a.html

Herb


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## Ghidrah (Oct 21, 2008)

Finally Herb asked the question I was thinking of while reading the thread. The blade had to be removed, if the block was used to remove the blade the inner and outer washers friction ridges held the blade and shaft stationary. If the blade was removed before the table was up ended its very possible something fell off and or got turned around when put back. A number of members speak of thin kerf blades but I didn't see mention by the poster regarding a blade change.

The washer on the left is from the 10" cabinet saw, the 2 on the right from an 8" port Mak, 1 wrench and block of wood to grab blade. Not all have it but the Mak has a nut on the outer washer and it is keyed to the shaft in case of issues, during removal or replacement, (I'm guessing rust) lucky me never had one. Take note of the circumference ridge on the inner and outer washers, if the outer isn't keyed and you have the outer reversed it might be enough to allow the locking nut to bottom out prior to blade /washer contact. If a thinner blade was installed it could increase the error.


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## dutchman 46 (May 23, 2007)

Ghidrah! You have the point that I was making correct! those washers are thicker, and a regular flat washer is thinner making the nut not take up the space and not getting tight! the thread will tighten on the thread, causing the nut to tighten on the thread. The will be to thin to be tighten and nothing will fit, shaft to washer will not do a thing, and a much larger chance of injury is added to the mix! All of the issues that were mentioned can be an issue to land You in the hospital ! Check it over very carefully, or if Your not sure, ask any one who was some skill with drive pulleys, and shafts to look it over for you. He or She may be willing to show You what it is that can cause a problem. I don' know if this is part of Your problem, Yet.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

I went out and checked my old Rockwell which I haven't used in quite a while and see that there are no flats to put a wrench on the inside of the blade. However, I had no problem taking the blade off and putting it back on with just the 1 wrench. I think the previous suggestion might be accurate. If someone switched the cupped washer with a regular flat washer it would allow the nut to run out of thread on the shaft before the washer tightened against the blade.


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## Ghidrah (Oct 21, 2008)

I framed for close to 30 yrs, the faster you get the job done the more money you make, excepts for worm gears, more times than I can recall, Maks, Skills, Bosch, etc., jammed in the lumber and the motor would spin the arbor till you released the trigger. Direct drives are built for slippage when the blade jambs up, otherwise the motor would fry after the blade jammed a bunch of times. The blade shouldn't be overly tightened to allow it to slip.


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

john60 said:


> Check the end of the shaft to see if it will take an allen key
> That is what my radial arm takes


My Rockwell Show saw-- 5/16" allen wrench fits into the end of the arbor shaft. Tighten the nut with a wrench while holding the shaft with the allen wrench.


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## coxhaus (Jul 18, 2011)

I have an old Rockwell 9 inch table saw. I use a small punch through the saw blade and let it straddle the cast iron top on both sides. I then tighten the left hand nut with a ¾ inch wrench. I don't know if this is a good idea or not but I don't have a nut on the inside for a second wrench.


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## Ghidrah (Oct 21, 2008)

I have 30 blades that I can count off the top of my head from 3 1/2 to 12". Aside the 5/8 arbor holes none of the older blades, (pre laser cut) have holes in them. Of the newer, (laser cut) blades the slots cut are for cooling and vibration dampening purposes, ranging from just over .035 to .0015. Every blade I've had sharpened over the last 10 yrs has received a very hard wax or poly plug filling them in. I do have 3 blades with factory drilled holes at the end of the laser cuts, 1/12" and 2/10". The 12 and 10 are Freud diablos the other 10 is a Tenryu. I like my saws too much they and the blades are too expensive to abuse, I would hate to accidently warp a blade no matter how small the error.


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## coxhaus (Jul 18, 2011)

I have two 9 inch blades. One is a Freud industrial carbide 40 tooth combo blade and the other is a Black& Decker old Piranha carbide 60 tooth blade and they both have holes in them other than the center hold. The Freud blade I just bought before Christmas on black Friday which was still expensive but they had it for under $70. Yes I worry about wrapping too. I am not sure using a pair of boards to clamp the blade is any less likely not to wrap the blade as you are still torquing the blade as the nut is tightened. Maybe there is a better way then what I tried.


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## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

If one is tightening the arbor nut sufficiently to warp a blade, no matter what method used to hold the blade, maybe should reconsider how tight a blade needs to be! JMHO.


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## Ghidrah (Oct 21, 2008)

I never heard of anyone clamping a blade with blocks to tighten or loosen it. The loosening method is to place the block in front of the blade as if it were to be cut then turn the blade to engage the block. There are no side to side torsional stresses on the blade or table. To tighten there's no need to tighten any further than what resistance you can provide by holding by hand, blade rotation is counter to loosening eh. 

If a blade, washer and nut aren't compromised only moderate pressure is required to loosen the nut. If it's rusted and resistant I'd squirt dw40 and wait for 10 to 15 mins.

I just measured the holes in my blades, they're between 7 and 11/64".

To each his own


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Ronald the owner at Windsor a plywood told me that a wood block is hard on the carbide teeth? 
I had to remove my locking pin that engaged to loosen the blade on my GI TS as my Freud dado has bolts that hit it . I was kinda bummed about that . Now I use a heavy glove to grab the blade as I loosen off the bolt . With the TS unplugged obviously :fie:


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## Ghidrah (Oct 21, 2008)

Rick I never used a hardwood to immobilize a blade, white or SYP only. I suppose it could happen but frankly I'm having a hard time figuring how a stationary piece of oak etc., against a stationary blade could chunk a carbide tip unless the weld was defective in the 1st place. In which case I'd rather it pop off then as opposed to a 4500 rpm blade under power. I did need to have 1 tip brazed back on the last blade sharpened from my Bosch slide, Either a rock or knot in some 4X4 PTSYP.

If I were to use a metal something to assist in a blade removal it would be as a last resort and would be after heating the nut once WD40 got a chance to soak in 1st. Even than I'd place a 10, 12 or 16d fin nail in a gullet.


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## coxhaus (Jul 18, 2011)

I guess I will try these other methods using a glove and soft wood. See which works best for me. Thanks guys.


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## dinsmo52 (Aug 8, 2018)

My Rockwell 10 saw runs great, until I start to cut wood. Then it loses all power. Belt is tight.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Hi Dinsmo and welcome. Are you sure nothing is slipping? If not then something is wrong with the motor.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

dinsmo52 said:


> My Rockwell 10 saw runs great, until I start to cut wood. Then it loses all power. Belt is tight.


welcome N/A..
something is slipping or like Charles said.. it's the motor which could be nothing more than a run capacitor...
when it loses power does the motor slow/bog down or does it keep running...


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Stick486 said:


> could be nothing more than a run capacitor...
> .


That's what I was thinking too. But it would change pitch noticeably and motor pulley/belt would turn noticeably slower. I can't remember for sure if the motor still draws extra amps when it slows down if that cap is bad but good chance it does. Dinsmo if that is the case don't try running it anymore until you get it fixed. You might overheat the windings if that is the problem and a relatively minor, not overly expensive fix could turn into a motor replacement.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

time for a PDF???

.


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