# Gloss = Harder Finish than Satin?



## jficke13 (Jul 17, 2013)

I'm currently finishing some cedar chests. I want to end up with a nice satin, but my uncle (a 30+ year cabinetmaker) told me that the hardest finish comes from gloss finish. He told me to put one or two coats of gloss polyuerethane on and then a final top coat of satin.

It's my understanding that the only difference between a gloss and satin finish is that there are flattening agents suspended in the satin in order to break of light, thus reducing its glossiness.

My question is this: does a gloss finish end up harder than a satin finish?

and if so, 

Could anyone describe the chemical/scientific reason why?


----------



## neville9999 (Jul 22, 2010)

As a Cabinetmaker I always prefer a satin to a gloss as the gloss is just too hard to live with. every finger mark shows, I don't know what your Uncle is referring to, hardness comes from the type of lacquer used as some are harder than others, as long as the finish is done the same with the same number of coats then the shine factor is not linked to hardness, you should check with him and make sure that you understand exactly what he said. NGM


----------



## flockshot (Mar 15, 2012)

It has been my experience that when a woodworker with 30 years experience tells you something, it is time to stop overthinking the issue and listen. They are usually correct.


----------



## jficke13 (Jul 17, 2013)

Oh I listened, but I want to understand. I like to know at least the high points of the science that is the 'why' of what we're doing.

My uncle has in the past said "make these 30 cuts," and I have. It's more valuable for me to get "make these 30 cuts because we're using a table saw to cut a custom groove to fit that piece over there."

Maybe I'm just a science geek, haha.


----------



## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Jonathon; aside from the gloss vs satin aspect I strongly suspect there's tremendous variation from one manufactures product line to the competitions'.
Even within a specific company's products there are recommendations as to the appropriateness of individual formulations for specific applications ie floors as opposed to trim. 
Just too general a statement in my opinion.


----------



## rwl7532 (Sep 8, 2011)

*From a forum that I participate in:*

When I do a satin finish on furniture, I always start with high gloss and knock it back. Basically, high gloss has more hardeners in it so its tougher than satins or semis. I do 0000 steel wool first. Don't just take it out of the package and use, as is. You need to unwind it and then fold into a flat pad. Use a straight flat backer so you don't put finger grooves into the finish. After that, if I need a finer cut, I go to wet sanding between 600 and 2000 grit. I start at 600 and move to finer grits depending on my own personal judgement. Everyone has a slightly different view of "satin".
*
And:*

Also, the steel wool thing... Sometimes you get a big fat strand in your wad. You've really got to be careful and pay attention for that. If you miss that you will end up with big ugly scratches in your finish that will be difficult to remove.

***


----------



## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

jficke13 said:


> I'm currently finishing some cedar chests. I want to end up with a nice satin, but my uncle (a 30+ year cabinetmaker) told me that the hardest finish comes from gloss finish. He told me to put one or two coats of gloss polyuerethane on and then a final top coat of satin.
> 
> It's my understanding that the only difference between a gloss and satin finish is that there are flattening agents suspended in the satin in order to break of light, thus reducing its glossiness.
> 
> ...



I have heard this before too. Whether it is true or not I don't know. I did a quick search to see what I could find and one response was that gloss has more hardeners in it. Maybe. If in doubt contact the manufacturer and ask them.

I did see other reasons for using gloss under satin and that was because it gives better looking depth to the finish.


----------



## Bradleytavares (Feb 25, 2012)

Very interesting discussion and interested to read more as it's posted. In my short 40 years of working with wood in one way or another, I've also heard and applied your Uncles insight. It has been a discussion I've listened to since forever and as a general rule, most people go with the gloss harder concept. Yes, things most likely have changed in the last 40 years which is why I'm so interested in following this. Ha, ha... keep me POSTED!


----------



## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

One of the yachts I used to race on was owned by a retired house painter. He re-coated the interior himself and all the edges, likely to be touched or rubbed, were gloss and all the panels, satin.

As I recall, he said that was because of the wear factor.


----------



## fire65 (Oct 29, 2008)

I had no idea. I have been rolling, brushing, and spraying many coats for at least 30 years, and this is a new one on me. I will follow it, but in just my experience I have never noticed a difference, BUT I never really thought about it. 
SOOO< I went to Sherwin Williams, where I buy most of my product and they say there is no difference in the hardness, just the look.


----------



## Bradleytavares (Feb 25, 2012)

Sherwin Williams should be an authority on the topic, I'd hope.


----------



## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Bradleytavares said:


> Sherwin Williams should be an authority on the topic, I'd hope.


They should be about their own products at least. This is one of those things that may have been true at one time but might not be now. All of the paint manufacturers have had to reformulate in the last few years to reduce VOCs in their products.

I've been doing a lot of painting lately as part of renos. I've bought a fair bit of paint from a large chain quality brand. The paint I'm painting over is way better than what I am using to cover it with.


----------



## mstrfnsh (Aug 19, 2013)

I have to agree with some of the comments here as to the hardness. I have been refinishing gun stocks for 36 years, using several different finishes over the years. For the last 5 or 6 years I have been using a Sherwin Williams conversion varnish with great results in both gloss and satin, I really have not noticed any change in hardness. All the stocks I do in gloss are buffed on a 2 hp. buffing machine without any trouble.


----------



## Wood Man (Feb 1, 2014)

Sherwin Williams products, M L Campbell products... I have used both, and both are top shelf. As for hardness, both use flattening agents in their gloss to "knock down" the gloss finish. In the post catalyzed finish from M L Campbell that I use for kitchen cabinetry, all levels of sheen start out as gloss, and the dulling agent is added for the finish effect desired by the customer. The amount of catalyst used per quart (1.2 ounce for Duravar -M L Campbell) is identical for gloss as well as lower sheen levels. Just given that fact alone, can one assume that the hardness should be equal also? I believe the proof is in the application. Both the gloss and the "semi gloss" are very durable. I still choose the flattened down version 90% of the time for utility cabinetry. Clarity is still very good, although gloss is, by its makeup, less opaque.
Just my humble opinion.


----------



## KenM (Dec 9, 2007)

Clipped from the FAQ's about Minwax Fast Dry Poly on their site:

'Q. What is the best way to select a sheen?

Sheen choice is a personal preference. Satin sheens reflect less light and gloss sheens reflect more light.

Q. Is one sheen more durable than the others?

No. The additives that distinguish satin from semi-gloss and gloss do not compromise the durability of the finish.'


----------



## stevieh (Mar 3, 2014)

Hi Jonathan,

Firstly, the finish on any given product is only as strong as it's substrate. 
Secondly, gloss will be harder than a finish with a matting agent in it. This is because there will be no obstructing elements stopping the polymers from joining to together to create a solid. 
Lastly, polyurethane lacquer/varnish is essentially a polymer, so is a plastic bag, so is the plastic on your mobile phone. Manufacturers create different strengths of plastic by using different polymers and catalysts. Therefore, when finishing your project use a good quality PU and it won't let you down.

Trust the old man he knows what talking about.....;-)
Happy polishing

Steve


----------



## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Steve, it seems there is a difference of opinion between you and the chemists at Minwax.


----------



## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

stevieh said:


> Hi Jonathan,
> 
> Firstly, the finish on any given product is only as strong as it's substrate.



A poly finish on pine is the same poly finish on maple. The finish does not change. Are you suggesting that it does? Or that the substrate alters the chemical makeup of the finish somehow so as to make it stronger? Or simply just referring to the substrates ability to absorb and recover from external forces?




stevieh said:


> Secondly, gloss will be harder than a finish with a matting agent in it. This is because there will be no obstructing elements stopping the polymers from joining to together to create a solid.



On its face, I'd have to agree with you on this. However, I would think that the differences would need to be measured in a laboratory setting. But.. and there is always a but in there *L* If doing a deep finish, comprised on 8,9,10 coats perhaps the differences would be much more noticeable. 




stevieh said:


> Lastly, polyurethane lacquer/varnish is essentially a polymer, so is a plastic bag, so is the plastic on your mobile phone. Manufacturers create different strengths of plastic by using different polymers and catalysts. Therefore, when finishing your project use a good quality PU and it won't let you down.



No argument here  



stevieh said:


> Trust the old man he knows what talking about.....;-)
> Happy polishing
> 
> Steve


Great post Steve....


----------



## stevieh (Mar 3, 2014)

Mike said:


> Steve, it seems there is a difference of opinion between you and the chemists at Minwax.


Hahaha.... I'm sure they have. Especially when they're trying to sell thier product.

Take a look at this test conducted in 2013 by another company peddling thier wares.

Seems I need 10 posts to paste a URL........? So here's the web page in PDF, typed with my extremely fast, two typing fingers.

3 W .pqcorp.com/Portals/1/lit/Matting

Pay particular attention to the section on, "effects of matting agents on mechanical properties of the coating"

I know the test was conducted using UV cured lacquer but the principle is the same. The test clearly shows the affect of abrading a surface that contains a matting agent. Will either in any case, gloss up or down resulting in damage.

Further more, ASTM D3363, EN 13523-4 and ISO 15184, ISO 1518 and
EN 13523-12, regulate a controlled test to ascertain the strength of organic coatings. As strange as it may seem these are the tests.

1. The pencil test. Surface hardness of the paint is assessed by using a range of pencils with increasing hardness: 6B, 5B, 4B, 3B, 2B, B, HB, F, H, 2H, 3H, 4H, 5H, 6H. The pencil is applied to the paint surface at an angle of 45° under a constant load.
The measurement is given by the hardness of the last pencil that does not scratch the paint surface.

2. The scratch test. The coating’s resistance to scratches is assessed using a tool with a spherical tip (1 mm diameter), which is dragged along the coating surface under an increasing load. The Clemen value corresponds to the highest load that does not scratch
the whole organic coating right down to the substrate.

Both of these tests are typically conducted on metal surfaces.

I know they sound crazy but it's true....... :wacko: 

Steve


----------



## stevieh (Mar 3, 2014)

TwoSkies57 said:


> A poly finish on pine is the same poly finish on maple. The finish does not change. Are you suggesting that it does? Or that the substrate alters the chemical makeup of the finish somehow so as to make it stronger? Or simply just referring to the substrates ability to absorb and recover from external forces?
> 
> Just the last one Bill. That's why most coating test are conducted on metal.... Less give in the substrate.
> 
> ...


Thanks Bill


----------



## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Steve, you can't compare lacquer to poly, two very different animals.


----------



## 1934fram (Jun 21, 2014)

Making a white cedar lounge table with red cedar inlay, what is suggested for obtaining a high gloss finish, sanding sealer Mirotone, Estapol or other polyurethane products?


----------



## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

HI , welcome to the forum.


----------



## Semipro (Mar 22, 2013)

Hello, glad you found us, it's great to have you as a member of the community, welcome to Router Forums.


----------

