# Ssssssteam Heat Pt 2



## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

I have an actual woodworking query (minds boggle, I know).
OK I'm making up a couple of WR cedar panels...1/4" x 11" W x 48" L.
Each panel is made from 3-4" x 48" strips...TitebondIII. No problem so far; all going well. Now I need to bend each panel across the width. Ie; I'll end up with something that looks like a wing, when the two bent panels are assembled together.
I've cut a bunch of 3/4" thick forms...11" long x 2" tall. The profile was a natural arc formed by bending a thin strip to touch the three critical points (two ends and the ht.)
Now Considering it's fairly thin Cedar, how long should I have to steam it for before attempting to bend it to the form? Any helpful suggestions? (I emphasize 'helpful'... :x )


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

Well, have never steamed wood, but subscribe to WoodenBoat, which has articles on steaming wood - wooden boat builders seem to steam more wood than any other woodworkers. Have read on it from other sources as well.

I think it is a combination of the volume of the wood, type of wood, heat of the steam, etc. I don't think I have ever seen a formula for it. I would say steam some, see how it bends, and repeat as needed, until you get a satisfactory response. That's how I would do it anyway. Five cents for the information.


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## woodknots (Mar 7, 2012)

Dan - years ago, Norm Abram did a show on steam bending. Not sure if you've seen it.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

I'm worried about the glue joints failing. My understanding is the glue needs to cure for at least three days before stressing the joints, especially with moisture.
A lot of these DIY steam boxes are all wrong for doing a wide panel. Now I need to build a steam chamber that will work, and allow me fast access to the panel when it's ready.
The cheapest part of my 2x4 challenge project is the 2x4...


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Trying to recall a baseline time from a Norm Abrams special a couple decades ago. Steam bending is mainly about the form and clamping the piece to it. Maybe this will help.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

DaninVan said:


> *I'm worried about the glue joints failing. My understanding is the glue needs to cure for at least three days before stressing the joints, especially with moisture.*
> A lot of these DIY steam boxes are all wrong for doing a wide panel. Now I need to build a steam chamber that will work, and allow me fast access to the panel when it's ready.
> The cheapest part of my 2x4 challenge project is the 2x4...


no matter... the heat from the steaming will plasticize the glue the joints will separate...
run a test..
take your glue brush w/ dried glue on it and hold under hot water or dip it in boiled water... the glue will wash right out of the brush...
you should have steamed the wood 1st for 10~15 minuets, then shaped and glued it up.....


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Epoxy might hold in the steam but I'd test that first. All other glues are some form of plastic like Stick says. All the stuff I've read about steaming say 1 hr per inch thickness. But it will have to be pretty limp to bend it across the width.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

DaninVan said:


> I'm worried about the glue joints failing. My understanding is the glue needs to cure for at least three days before stressing the joints, especially with moisture.
> A lot of these DIY steam boxes are all wrong for doing a wide panel. *Now I need to build a steam chamber that will work, and allow me fast access to the panel when it's ready.*
> The cheapest part of my 2x4 challenge project is the 2x4...


here...

...


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

Dan IMHO I think you should build a form and bend before you glue them up. I did some for the inside of a trunk lid out of 1/4" redwood one time. I wrapped them in towels and kept pouring boiling water on them then after an hour took them one piece at a time and bent them to fit. But I was bending them lengthwise. You want to bend them width wise? I hope the bend is not too extreme.
Anothother thing to think about n do your steaming in an open area outside your shop or you might get condensation on all of your tools.

Herb


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

In my own defense, I didn't know what I didn't know. 
Herb; no way was I going to do the steaming indoors, for starters I thought I might use the Coleman gas stove to 'boil' the water...outdoors!*
Re the bend; as I mentioned, it's a 2" rise in 11" of span. basically 1:6- When I take the panels out of the clamps I'll run it through the planer again to clean it up. That'll mean that it's even thinner than the current .25".

(*My neighbor was burning some brush in a burning barrel this afternoon. He didn't notice that he'd accidentally thrown an aerosol can in with the branches.
Startled the daylights out of me, when it went off. He said the barrel jumped a couple of inches vertically.)


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## sunnybob (Apr 3, 2015)

Thats not too big a curve. Did you know you can bend wood by dry heating as well?

I would try putting the separate panels under mild clamp pressure on the former and use an electric heat gun at the centre, working outwards and slowly increasing clamp pressure you go.
Once the panels have some memory of the shape, glue them up and immediately clamp them so the glue holds the shape.

If you do want to steam, you dont have to build a box for just one time use. A plastic sleeve around the wood will do the trick.
Heres a third option


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## Multiwood (Feb 24, 2013)

Dan I have made several items with bent lamination and I do not steam them. I'm working on a table with bent lamination on
the edges now. You should use a Polyurethane glue for bent lamination. I use Titebond it has a purple label.


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## Multiwood (Feb 24, 2013)

Dan here is a picture of a table I made with Ash & Cherry bent laminated legs. The legs were bent into a form
and I did not use steam.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Dan...
have you considered doing a layup instead???
how about veneering bendy plywood...
make your own bendy plywood from Spanish ceder veneer...


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

you got a rendering of some kind of your idea/plan/project...
is it to be open ended...


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Stick486 said:


> Dan...
> have you considered doing a layup instead???
> how about veneering bendy plywood...
> make your own bendy plywood from Spanish ceder veneer...


1-8' 2X4. That's the 2 x 4 Challenge, Stick. 
(And accessory hardware etc.)

I'm going to go through all the material you guys have posted...I never really wanted to use steam if there was another way.
Thanks for all the input, Guys; lots to consider.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

DaninVan said:


> 1-8' 2X4. That's the 2 x 4 Challenge, Stick.
> (And accessory hardware etc.)
> 
> I'm going to go through all the material you guys have posted...I never really wanted to use steam if there was another way.
> Thanks for all the input, Guys; lots to consider.


brute force applied over time...
segment it w/ thicker material and shape the top...


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

2" offset in 11" with a 4" width to bend. That sounds hard to do. Why not saw it to shape?


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

OK; we're losing sight of the objective. I should have been more explicit about the parameters I need to work within.
As I mentioned in my last comment this is about getting the maximum amount of material out of ONE 8'-2x4 ...species doesn't matter, although my club has rejected hardwood this year.
Every sawcut, planer cut, offcut reduces the material actually available (somebody's eventually going to think of making paper from the sawdust)...
My project isn't one I've seen done before; it's a large-ish musical instrument. My own design. No idea whether it'll work as intended(?).
(Did I mention that my musical talent is pretty much limited to baked beans?)
The thin panels are a sound box; something along the concept of a guitar/mandolin/violin, but very different.
I figure the sawing into thin strips probably used up 15-20% of the original material...I'm sort of stretching the rules a bit because I started with a rough sawn 2x4... that's an added 1/2' in both width and thickness...it was clear quarter sawn, done on a bandsaw mill and really clean on the faces, just a bit of light fuzz.
No drawn plan, Stick; it's all in my head, under constant revision. So many conundrums; wait! That's what I should have made; a conunDRUM


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

DaninVan said:


> OK; we're losing - it's all in my head, under constant revision. So many conundrums; wait! That's what I should have made; a conunDRUM


you realize you are holding the door open and have thrown out the have at it mat...

so change the design,,, again...
*some wooden passive sound box images...*


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

It's hard to imagine what you are trying without at least a rough drawing Dan. Just keep in mind with your idea of bending, if that's still a consideration, is that the wood on the inside of the curve has to compress and the wood on the outside has to stretch and I'm guessing that most of the movement will be on the compressive side so for that much movement I would expect to see distortion on the inside curve, much like you see wrinkling on a muffler pipe when it gets bent. Maybe it can be done in stages with a partial bend, let it sit and then bend some more type approach. It just seems to me that there might be a high probability failure rate going that method.


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

You Lost me,Dan
Herb


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

I won't post any pictures until I've at least got it roughed out... 
Re Charles' comment concerning the difference in 'length' of the top and bottom chords (not the musical kind), ie the compression and tension in the face side and back. I was thinking of kerfing with the grain but apparently that's a recipe for disaster... 
If I had more time, and spare wood, I'd do a bit of experimenting.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Anybody that's lost, think of an airplane wing; basically an airfoil. Except it's symmetrical both top and bottom and end to end.
Nominally 48" L x 11" W x 4" deep at its fattest dimension (tapering a tip along both long edges.)


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Herb Stoops said:


> You Lost me,Dan
> Herb


yur not lost, it's an illusion, yur home Herb....
Dan is, shall we , elsewhere...


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

any of these close???


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

You got the big picture, Stick...but it's symmetrical forward and aft (won't fly worth a damn...  )
Oh, and the interior is hollow, ie a sound box. Maybe an airfoil shaped bridge at the midpoint.


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

Would taking a V groove bit and taking multiple passes on the underside of your foil give you enough flex. Perhaps using a hot towel inbetween the glue lines so as to not
compromise the integrity of the joint????


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Bill; I have a small 1/16" veining bit that I was considering using to kerf the back..._but it's with the grain,_ not across it, and apparently that's a _real_ bad idea.
Like I said earlier, with this project I'm learning just how little I knew! *shock*


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

Get a buddy with a CNC machine. lol


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

DaninVan said:


> Bill; I have a small 1/16" veining bit that I was considering using to kerf the back..._but it's with the grain,_ not across it, and apparently that's a _real_ bad idea.
> Like I said earlier, with this project I'm learning just how little I knew! *shock*


kerfing w/ the grain works .. need to make the cuts as deeper as you can and wet/soak the wood before flexing... 
use your TS to kerf..
radical radii need V shaped kerfs...


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Heh... then it'd be _his_ project! 


I found this article; some helpful advice in it. I'd already thought of the sheet metal strap for the top...
https://www.woodshopnews.com/columns-blogs/curving-projects-can-be-mind-bending


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Stick; won't that remove a lot of the material? It's down to about 3/16" thick after planing and sanding the faces.
_(I'm just heading back outside. SWMBO is giving me the ol' 'The garden won't look after itself' look.
This sunny-non-rain is cutting into my shop time.)_


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

DaninVan said:


> Stick; won't that remove a lot of the material? It's down to about 3/16" thick after planing and sanding the faces.


sure it will...
after you kerf and bend...
fill the kerfing w/ glue...
got piece of veneer...
experiment the bends w/ that...
do 'em hot or cold or dry or wet or some combination there of.....

kerf up a piece of scrap to lean kerf density/depth...


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

DaninVan said:


> _(I'm just heading back outside. SWMBO is giving me the ol' 'The garden won't look after itself' look.
> This sunny-non-rain is cutting into my shop time.)_


in that case tear out the garden or hire a gardener...


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Scrap?! What's this "scrap ' you speak of? 
It's all just waiting for the right project...


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

DaninVan said:


> Scrap?! What's this "scrap ' you speak of?
> It's all just waiting for the right project...


okay...
so select a piece and practice...


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

There must be a piece of _dry_ Cedar here somewhere; wet we gots.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

DaninVan said:


> There must be a piece of _dry_ Cedar here somewhere; wet we gots.


work w/ wet.. it's extra flexible...


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Wait...what?! That link you posted, Stick, it also says you_ can't kerf with the grain_(?)


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

DaninVan said:


> Wait...what?! That link you posted, Stick, it also says you_ can't kerf with the grain_(?)


what's to stop you...
this an emergency...
did you not do things your parents and wife told you not to do... eh??


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Hardly an 'emergency'; more in the line of "Don't screw this up, Dan!"
_"did you not do things your parents and wife told you not to do... eh??"_
My lips are sealed.

In any case, I'm going to try the slow and easy cold mold thing, with a piece of sheet metal as a top platen.
I'll sponge the wood down before applying any pressure.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

DaninVan said:


> In any case, I'm going to try the slow and easy cold mold thing, with a piece of sheet metal as a top platen.
> I'll sponge the wood down before applying any pressure.


good move...


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

I trust you did your glue up as an oily wood...


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

.....................................................*dial tone*


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

ut-oh.....


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

*Oops*

In Spades. 
It just has to last through the bending operation and then till the judging in June... _*embarrassment*_


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

*Red, in the Morning*

I popped in to the Cedar mill this morning to see if they were back up and running...they've been out of low grade logs for a t least a month or more. These guys mostly cut Utility Grade logs for fencing material, but like anything, they get some decent stuff out of most logs they buy.
Anyway,* WR Cedar has gone up 24%* since they last bought their saw logs! What they call 'Standard Grade' is now $3/LIN. Ft. (not Bd. Ft) for a 2x10 Rough Sawn. Clear isn't even offered.
2x4 is $1.15 Lin. Ft. for Std. and $3.50 Lin. Ft for Clear. When I picked up my 2x4 for my project, from a custom mill (not these guys) I paid $2.25 _Bd_. Ft. for Clear quarter sawn...that was just before Xmas.
:crying:


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Confused?


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

I've heard lately that WR cedar log prices here in the interior are also way up. Probably at least in part due to the fact that deck season is just about here again and there is lots of demand for 5/4 cedar deck boards. The price might drop starting around October. I bought some decent boards of tight knot second growth last summer from the big orange but they were out by fall so I think it's a seasonal product.


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

a 1" thick board, 4 inches wide by 1 foot look = 1/3 board foot.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

DaninVan said:


> In Spades.


you've been away from WW for a while haven't you Dan...


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

I was at Menards tonite and started to get the stuff for MIL's wishing well.

All rough sawn cedar

21 - 2 x 4 x 8
2 - 2 x 6 x 8
4 - 2 x 8 x 8 

$356.57 plus tax (USD)

That'll take care of the bottom and side posts. Still need the stuff for the top and bucket.

This is one project that needs to measure twice, or thrice, before cutting once.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Stick486 said:


> you've been away from WW for a while haven't you Dan...


Some of us have plants that need our attention (others have snow...)


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

DaninVan said:


> Some of us have plants that need our attention (others have snow...)




i don't have either..


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

You thought I'd forgotten about this project?! You should be so lucky... 
I sponged down the two panels today, and put them into the cold forming jig. I think it's going OK as I didn't hear or feel any sudden cracking.
I'd done everything I could do including sanding, while panels were still flat...I'm down to under 3/16" thick at this point. Getting a bit fragile for WR Cedar.
The trick I think was in using a sheet metal platen on the top face to prevent the fibers from fracturing upwards. I'm using 1" ratchet straps to apply the pressure. Five strap clamps in 4' seems about right. 
I had the sheet metal shop put a safety edge on the two long edges and that's helped tremendously in stiffening the platen ie applying pressure more evenly. And yes I took some pics.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

A very long time ago I used kerfing on some pine to make a prop miniature Grand piano for a production of "You're a Good Man Charlie Brown." It was about 2 ft. long by maybe 18 inches wide. Had a fake keyboard withkeys that moved too. I don't recall doing anything besides kerfing, but might have soaked the outside for some time in hot water. I used a lot of blocks inside the piano body to support the outside edge. I only kerfed the curved sections and left the rest solid. It went together pretty easily. The director was a girl I liked so I made it really look good.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

I took them out of the mold this afternoon. No hay problemas! 
Having said _that_, I might as well have saved myself the trouble of finish sanding before putting them in the jig wet. Major grain raising. *sigh*.
Pictures later tonight; I need to take them off the camera.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

*Pictures!*

My captions didn't come through so here's the rundown:
#1...1-8' 2x4 Western Red Cedar, Rough Sawn
#2...cut into 2-4' sections, and ripped into right thicknesses for components
#3...one panel yayed up , next one ready to go and other two components ready for machining
#4...bottom of bending form
#5...both panels in place, metal platen layed over, and ratchet clamps in place
#6...end view of clamping assembly
#7...out of the mould, and temp. notched braces slipped on to hold the shape
#8..end view of the curved panel(s)

Before anyone asks, there is no plan...it's all in my head! *scary thought, I know*


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

so far so good...


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

My sentiment exactly. 
Titebond *III*, my new friend.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

DaninVan said:


> My sentiment exactly.
> Titebond *III*, my new friend.


watch out for heat exposure... ie. the sun or even a heat register.....
the glue will plasticize.. and then....

joint failure...
joint shift...
creep...
glue weeping...
joint separation...


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

It's done! A couple of pics tomorrow. I've been very bad about doing any further progress pics; I hate taking my good camera into the shop and my shop camera has had battery issues.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

OK; the 'reveal'...
The 2x4 Challenge is to build something from a single 8' 2x4 (any species. I bought an 8' WRCedar rough sawn.
I designed an airfoil shaped Aeolian harp.




The shell is made from 2-3 lengths of 3/16" thick x 4"W x 42"L glued and molded into a curve, then glud into the airfoil shape.
5 internal bulkheads give it some strength. Then 2 end caps...they hold the string attachments (10-32 Machine screws---2" long ea. ground and drilled)
Just an exterior oil treatment.
The bridges are Walnut. The challenge permits small bits of other wood for this sort of purpose.
Next time I make up a thin panel I'll do scarf joints; the butt joints were a pain and caused me a lot of worry. As insurance I glued full length narrow strips of nylon mesh over the inside of each of the joints.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Sorry, forgot to explain!
The harp has a fishing swivel on a hook mounted on top...it'll be suspended outdoors, probably from a tree branch. Hence the 'wind' part (not a lot of wind in the shop...normally  ).


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

I like it...
really mighty fine outcome Dan..


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

Well done Dan,,, not to mention a most interesting project...
gonna be hard to beat that


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

Good one Dan,well thought out and executed. Bet there wasn't much left of the 2X4. Have you tried it out yet?

I would be surprised if that didn't win.
Herb


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Thanks, Guys! Got my fingers crossed...and no, no usable scrap left over.


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## jj777746 (Jan 17, 2015)

Good luck Dan.Certainly looks like a winner to me. James jj777746


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## sunnybob (Apr 3, 2015)

The workmanship is fantastic, but I'm really glad I'm not your neighbour.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

sunnybob said:


> The workmanship is fantastic, but I'm really glad I'm not your neighbour.


are you kidding?!?!?!...
w/ his talent and beer stash everybuddy wants to be his neighbor...


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

*'Dan's Tool Crib and Pub*'

Bob; Knowing what I've learned doing the first one I'm sure if I did it again I could avoid a few of the road bumps. 
I did the original resawing using a thin kerf blade. If I hadn't, there wouldn't have been enough material to do the project; that's how tight the material list was. An S4S 2x4 wouldn't have worked.
(I'm still thinking about how to stretch a 2x4 to make Rick's footstool!)


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## sunnybob (Apr 3, 2015)

Dan, ordinary wind chimes make me want to reach for my shotgun. That thing whining all day long could start a war.
But again, the idea and quality are faultless.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

sunnybob said:


> Dan, ordinary wind chimes make me want to reach for my shotgun. That thing whining all day long could start a war.
> But again, the idea and quality are faultless.


retune it...


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

*Music To Your Ears*



sunnybob said:


> Dan, ordinary wind chimes make me want to reach for my shotgun. That thing whining all day long could start a war.
> But again, the idea and quality are faultless.


Hardly faultless, Bob, but not an embarrassment either... 
I'm thinking of gifting it to my SiL; he's kind of tightly wound. Needs some soothing music... >


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## sunnybob (Apr 3, 2015)

That is PURE evil. ROFLMFAO.

Had a neighbour who put up a wind chime. We live in an area with constant wind sometimes strong. I was on the verge of shotgunning it when it suddenly went quiet. i found out later that all the time it had been driving me crazy he had been out at work. the first week he took off and stayed at home it vanished on the second day.
I expect that was a gift from a father in law.


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