# Using router for glue up



## Mickeyt (Nov 12, 2012)

I am having problems with my glue ups. What I am trying to make are end grain cutting boards and I am not satisfied with how the glue ups are working out the glue lines are not as tight as I would like them too be.
The problem I believe is with my table saw, and I have it square to everything as good as I can get it but it is still off just enough to make the glue lines off just enough to not glue up good and tight.
I was thinking that using my router and table as a jointer may work better? What do you all think?
If this is the way to go, how would I set up the table? I figure that I will need a split fence with the out feed side just proud of the in feed side, would that be correct ? What bit would you use for this operation? The boards are 1 ½ inches thick so I guess the bit would have to be 1 3/4 inches tall so, on some of the boards they may be as thick as 2 inches.
My thinking is I would make my own portable table top with a hole drilled into the middle for the router, and make the split fence, I would use this set up only for the glue ups for the cutting boards and table tops or any boards that need a trued up edge.
Is this a good idea or not?
I hope this makes sence
Thanks
Mick


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

Hi Mick,

The problem you are having does seem to indicate that the boards need jointing and then planing.

Either of the solutions you put forward should solve the problem.

Did you run the boards through the planer before glue up?


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## BrianS (Nov 7, 2004)

Hi Mick. You are correct in your thinking that the outfeed side must be a bit proud of the infeed side. Just make sure you set the outfeed side even with the bit. If you don't have a split fence, you can put a piece of laminate or arborite on the outfeed side to make it a bit bigger than the infeed.


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## Mickeyt (Nov 12, 2012)

jw2170 said:


> Hi Mick,
> 
> The problem you are having does seem to indicate that the boards need jointing and then planing.
> 
> ...


Hi James, thanks again for replying to one of my questions.

The boards I have been getting from the saw mill are face planned and have raw edges, I have a Sears jointer but have never been able to get it to edge joint correctly so I do not use it. The way I have been edge joining is to screw the board to a factory edge piece of ply wood and running them through the table saw, but I get some saw marking on the board. When that happens I run it through again until I can not see any saw marks. for the faces I run them through the planner.
I saw the router edging system ether here on Router forums’ or Lumber jocks or U- tube I don’t remember which and it looked like a good way to set the boards up for gluing. 
What type bit would you suggest?

Thanks again
Mick


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## Mickeyt (Nov 12, 2012)

BrianS said:


> Hi Mick. You are correct in your thinking that the outfeed side must be a bit proud of the infeed side. Just make sure you set the outfeed side even with the bit. If you don't have a split fence, you can put a piece of laminate or arborite on the outfeed side to make it a bit bigger than the infeed.


Hi Brian thanks for the information

I'm thinking that if I make this as a dedicated router table just for jointing I could just make a one piece fence and save a lot of work.
The more I think about this the more I am likening it. But there maybe something I am over looking also, as it seems so simple.

Mick


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Mick-

Here's what I see that you have that is pertinent:
Table Saw, radial arm saw, 12" planer, 6" jointer, 2 fixed base routers and 1 plunge router.

I don't see that you have a router table "yet"... correct? So, lets talk about what you are trying to do...

First, what is the length of the stock you are trying to joint for glueup? You said 1-1/2 thick... what is the other dimension?

A router table would work as you described, straight bit or spiral bit. Both come in cutter lengths of around 2" which would fit the requirement for you. If you go that way, I think you would need a 1/2" collet router in a table. A 1/2" x 2" x 1/2 collet straight or spiral bit. Drawbacks are if the router is not secure in your table, the bit is going to apply some leverage at 1-1/2" out and you may get some flex... Take it slow. I would take about a 1/8" to 1/16" at a time with a 1/32" finish cut using a router shimmed jointing fence. That is assuming you already have a router table...

With your free-hand routers, you could use a straightedge clamped to your work and a straight bottom bearing pattern bit, 1/2". Would have to hold work secure and be level and steady as you feed. You just run the bearing against the straight edge and the cutter below it will follow suit.

You could use your jointer to get 2 squared flat sides, then pass it through your planner. Wondering why you aren't going that route and why you didn't mention about using those...Not working right for you? No matter... I usual do jointing for my larger glue-ups on my table saw or radial arm saw... So I'll mention them next.

Jointing with saw's, I usually use a 40 tooth blade, either rip or glueedge spec's. Anything with more teeth, such as a medium or fine finish crosscut will want to wander with the grain and harder to get a gluedge for me.

Radial arm saw. I lock the power unit and rotate 90 degrees left. Lock the power unit just shy of the width. Check for stock for your peak (where it bows away from the end) and mark with a bird mouth towards the bow. Feed the stock along the fence, bird mouth towards the blade, left to right, past the blade using push sticks, taking off about 1/16". Check with a straight edge. Repeat as needed. When flat, turn over and get the other side. This assumes your radial arm saw is tuned, locks steady and tight... and that you have a straight table fence.

When jointing on a table saw, which I do the most often... I use jointing jigs. Are you familiar with those kinds of jigs? Or are you trying to get them straight just using your rip fence (not as accurate)? If needed I could go into detail with those jigs. Very handy and easy to use... 

What kind of Table Saw do you have? Just curious... And trying to help with what you have or what you feel most comfortable in skills with..


Mickeyt said:


> I am having problems with my glue ups. What I am trying to make are end grain cutting boards and I am not satisfied with how the glue ups are working out the glue lines are not as tight as I would like them too be.
> The problem I believe is with my table saw, and I have it square to everything as good as I can get it but it is still off just enough to make the glue lines off just enough to not glue up good and tight.
> I was thinking that using my router and table as a jointer may work better? What do you all think?
> If this is the way to go, how would I set up the table? I figure that I will need a split fence with the out feed side just proud of the in feed side, would that be correct ? What bit would you use for this operation? The boards are 1 ½ inches thick so I guess the bit would have to be 1 3/4 inches tall so, on some of the boards they may be as thick as 2 inches.
> ...


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Mickeyt said:


> Hi Brian thanks for the information
> 
> I'm thinking that if I make this as a dedicated router table just for jointing I could just make a one piece fence and save a lot of work.
> The more I think about this the more I am likening it. But there maybe something I am over looking also, as it seems so simple.
> ...


Let me paint a picture... Works just like your jointer should be adjusted to...

Router table jointer fence. Both pieces of the curtain are the same width. That way you can use for everyday routing... and you adjust the middle to clear your bit. 

For jointing with the router you shim the left side (Outfeed) out 1/16 inch from the main fence and set your fence so that if you put a straight edge along the left side of the fence, set that left side is even with your bit.... Which will end up also 1/16 inch out from the right infeed fence side. (Fed right to left). 

You run your work against the infeed fence (right side)... It gets cut by the bit and then gets supported at that new surface by the right-side outfeed fence.

As this relates to your jointer? You set your jointer blades to the height of your outfeed table (left side). You adjust your infeed table (right) to the depth of cut. The work gets fed from the right side infeed table, gets cut by the cutters and is supported at that height by the left outfeed table...

Same principles between the two. Jointer and router table using a jointer fence. 

Maybe you need help adjusting your jointer blades to your outfeed table? Now that you have an idea of how that works.... Just a thought of what you have... With the jointer, you then put the first finshed edge against the jointer's fence (set square to the outfeed table) (or the router table and supporting against the outfeed fence) and in doing that and also keeping the support to the outfeed table, that adjoining edge should now be squared.

Do those techniques make sense now?


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## Mickeyt (Nov 12, 2012)

MAFoElffen said:


> Mick-
> 
> Here's what I see that you have that is pertinent:
> Table Saw, radial arm saw, 12" planer, 6" jointer, 2 fixed base routers and 1 plunge router.
> ...


Hi Mike, thanks for your time trying to help. I’ll try to answer your question as best I can.
I’ll back up a little and try to explain the problem a little better. Well I thought about explaining it better and can’t figure out anything different.

My profile does not include a router table, but I have gotten one since then, I have not had the time to play with it until yesterday, and found that the router plate is not level with the table top so I need to do something with that, was looking tonight at a Grizzly one? Also this router table has an over head Shop Smith router system built in to it with a Milwaukee router mounted un the table.

The length of most of the boards would be about 36 to 40 inches. This is where I can back up a little on my problem description. On my end grain cutting boards I do not need to worry so much about the edge side of the board as it will get sanded after the final glue up. It is the edge grain glue up I am having problems with when I want to do a smaller edge grain to edge grain type board or a table top. Also the problem is when I do the 2ed glue up on the thicker end grain boards, as you might be aware on the end grain cutting boards after the edge grain glue up has dried then it is then cut again into 1 ¼ Inch to 1 ½ inch sections and then these are glued back together again with every other one flipped end for end. ( I only added all of this in case someone has never made an end grain board before) any way when I cut them the 2ed time is when I really have the problem, Like I said the table saw may be part of the problem are it could be the way I am doing it? My thinking is if the saw is off just a tiny bit from true 90 and when I flip the pieces it enlarges the degree of out of true. The table saw is an older Delta contractors and the blade I have been using is 50 teeth rip blade. 

My problem with my jointer is I have never been able to get it to cut a true square edge, granted I have not used it much and years ago gave up on it. Just in the last few weeks I have been working on it to try to make it work for me, I did find the tables to not be level and true, both the end feed and the out feed edges were higher then the tables so I guess that may be one of the problems. This is a Sears out feed adjustable only type jointer and from what I have found out it is hard to get it in alignment .

As for as using the RAS I don’t believe I want to do that with mine. I just put a new top and fence on it and tuned it up the best I could by the book, took most of it apart and cleaned all the crud out of it, and it works pretty good for cross cuts for getting the boards to where I need them to be with pretty square edges. (Proud of myself on this one)

I just ordered some t track, knobs and such to make a table saw sled to cut the ends of the boards truer then my old way of screwing a board to a piece of square ply wood and run them through the saw. Again my thinking is the table saw blade being off just a smiggen . I also use a Wixley angle gauge to set the blade, it says 90 But who knows how right it is.

As for as the hand held router to make the edge right I don’t feel real confident doing that right now, I think the table top way would work better for me and maybe a little faster.

I’ll try to put up a few photos of some boards I have done and maybe you and others can see my problem better. The first photo is after I aquired a drum sander an sanded the edges beter glueing them back it came out the best of the lot.
Everyone has to understand that these or my first boards and have never done this type of wood working before, I have done a lot of carpentry type work but not real wood working.

This is getting to long, sorry for being so long winded.

Thanks again for your help, you and the rest of the members are great. I wonder if it was all put together how many years of knowledge would be here?

Mick


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## Mickeyt (Nov 12, 2012)

MAFoElffen said:


> Let me paint a picture... Works just like your jointer should be adjusted to...
> 
> Router table jointer fence. Both pieces of the curtain are the same width. That way you can use for everyday routing... and you adjust the middle to clear your bit.
> 
> ...




Mike
It makes sense in that I know what you are saying but a little confusing on the lefts and rights.
If I stand at the front of my router table, My in feed side is to the right and the out feed is to the left. 
I guess I really do not understand as I thought I would need to put the spacer on the MY left or My left out feed side on the fence? 
I always feed my work from right to left as looking at it from the front of the table top. Have I been doing it wrong all this time? Seemed to work for me.

As for as the jointer, As I said in the last post I have been working to tune it up, I sanded down both out side edges of the cast table top and now my board sets flush with the whole top, before there was a space in the middle causing the board not to set true to the table. I would like to get it going as it would be a easyer way to true the boards I guess.
Right now if I owned a boat I would make an ancor out of it, I can’t seem to be able to make the infeed table level, I’ll get it some day just hope I live long enough to see it work.


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

Mike, 

BJ would say that I am from 'downunder' and therefore see everything back to front, but, shouldn't the left fence be the outfeed fence and alinged with the cutter?

And the feed be from right to left? ???



> For jointing with the router you shim the right side out 1/16 inch and set your fence so that if you put a straight edge along the right side of the fence, set that right side even with your bit....
> 
> You run your work against the infeed fence (left side)... It gets cut by the bit and then gets supported at that new surface by the outfeed fence.


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## Neil Tsubota (Mar 20, 2010)

Did you check to see if the wood was "square" on all four sides ?


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## Mickeyt (Nov 12, 2012)

Hi Neil,
Well I checked it with my tape measure and it looked pretty good as for as I could tell. Since then I have bought a cheap 
Digital caliper but haven’t made any boards to use it on. My brother in law let me use his high dollar calipers and this cheap set is right in the money with his. 20 bucks as opposed to 150 bucks, well see how long it last as you get what you pay for in most cases. but some times cheap work out.
Thanks for the heads up
Mick


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## rwl7532 (Sep 8, 2011)

Sell the jointer.
Now that you know what to look for, replace it.


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

"Square" is checked by a square, not by calipers... Past comment. 90 degrees on your saw should be 90 degrees if you set via you wixey angle gauge. I use and trust those gauges. But, back to square...

You say the first glue up stage you are fine. If they are fine, then you are coming out square in your tooling (at least for that). Then you rip and join for your second stage and you're off on your mating edges?

So now the goal there is to get pieces that you need consistently straight when then flipped 90 degrees for glueup right? Now you have pieces that are made from different pieces, so along their lengths (made from pieces) they are not of consistent density. 

If when you rip themdown for stage two, why don't you first rip them to intermediate widths such as 12" and pass them all through the thickness planer? One rough pass through the drum sander. Then continue the final rips to size. Would they be straighter then? Seem to me, the challenge there is getting getting a consistent thickness through a length of various density woods, right?. You could check calipers, but more important is that you have a straight edge, such as checking with a sraight edge... Since from there you flip 90 to the end grain, it is no longer the rips from the saw when you are cutting them down to size, but the 90 degree adjacent edge prep, which could be sawn, or routed to joint, but you have other tools also.

Yes, I think in that instance, a jointer itself, would be a challenge, using it alone across quickly changing densities, _crossgrained_ and expecting it to be dead-on flat. Hmmm... With practice(?), but still a challenge.

Do you have a 48" straight edge of some type?

Edit-- When I get back tonight, I'll PM you on a jig I think might help... Now scurrying around getting ready for some appointments.


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## greenacres2 (Dec 23, 2011)

Here's a jig that may help as well for straight lining:
http://www.routerforums.com/introductions/38861-jointing-router.html ...the third post in the thread.


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## Mickeyt (Nov 12, 2012)

rwl7532 said:


> Sell the jointer.
> Now that you know what to look for, replace it.


Hi Ralph, thanks for the advice, 
Yep as soon as I get it all back together and working right I will put it up for sale and get a real one LOL

Passed on a nice one a month ago, now I wish I would have bought it.

Thanks again
Mick


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

*Other Right, Other Right!*



jw2170 said:


> Mike,
> 
> BJ would say that I am from 'downunder' and therefore see everything back to front, but, shouldn't the left fence be the outfeed fence and alinged with the cutter?
> 
> And the feed be from right to left? ???


Yeh, I was wondering about Mike's _jointer_ description:
_"As this relates to your jointer? You set your jointer blades to the height of your outfeed table (right side). Your adjust your infeed table (left) to the depth of cut. The work gets fed from the left side infeed table, gets cut by the cutters and is supported at that height by the outfeed table..."
_
...?!
http://www.woodhelp.com/JetJointer.jpg


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

DaninVan said:


> Yeh, I was wondering about Mike's _jointer_ description:
> _"As this relates to your jointer? You set your jointer blades to the height of your outfeed table (right side). Your adjust your infeed table (left) to the depth of cut. The work gets fed from the left side infeed table, gets cut by the cutters and is supported at that height by the outfeed table..."
> _
> ...?!
> http://www.woodhelp.com/JetJointer.jpg


Back from Employment Security...

Yes. (embarrassed) Job hunting and doing 6 other things at once. I was turned around. reverse all that please. Don't know what I was thinking, but was multi-tasking and exhausted. Both infeeds on those are fed from right to left... good catch guys.


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## rwl7532 (Sep 8, 2011)

MAFoElffen said:


> Back from Employment Security...
> 
> Yes. (embarrassed) Job hunting and doing 6 other things at once. I was turned around. reverse all that please. Don't know what I was thinking, but was multi-tasking and exhausted. Both infeeds on those are fed from right to left... good catch guys.


You can go back and edit your posts. :big_boss:

I was hoping you weren't advising a climb cut.


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## Willway (Aug 16, 2012)

Mick that is some beautiful work, would almost make me want to smack someone for using a knife on one!


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

*I can relate to that..*



Willway said:


> Mick that is some beautiful work, would almost make me want to smack someone for using a knife on one!


I agree, the cutting board I made under instruction is not to be touched....LOL.


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

rwl7532 said:


> You can go back and edit your posts. :big_boss:
> 
> I was hoping you weren't advising a climb cut.


Editted and corrected. Thanks Ralph. Let me catch up and see where you're all at with this... sorry. Unwinding.

In my postes and uploades I have pictures and descriptions of these. Can't find at the moment, so I don't expect anyone else to.... So.

the first TS jointing jig I'm discussing is just like what you are using... where you are using a sheet of plywood and screwing to, while using the factory edge against the fence... I go a bit further on that. I do my jointing jigs in 48" and 106". If you've ever had a strip of ply sit for a while, it doesn't always stay straight. Something about that cross-hatch pattern of skins glued together and pulling against each other and when you cut it into a long narrow strip... Anyways, I don't assume that a factory edge is straight. I check it, brace and support it with other wood. For instance, Take a 48" of 1/2" ply as your base. Joint (square) a 1"x3"x48" piece along three sides so you get the opposing wide edges parallel, screw and glue one edge even to the factory edge, while ensuring it's straight with a straight edge during assembly. Then I thickness plane a matching 1"x3"x48" piece, turn it on edge, screw and glue it to the jointed, straight edge of other 1x3 piece, squared to it. So now you have a platform of plywood that your working stock will ride on, an edge that is parallel to the edge that the stock rests against... and a long tall square and parallel surface that can either ride against the fence or be secured to the fence (to act as an auxiilery fence). 

I have toggle clamps on one of mine to help hold the work to the jig, but i can tell you I hardly use those clamps. I can use this jig on my cabinet saw... or my cheap Ryobi jobsite saw and still get quality straight glueedge joints from either. Vary the dimensions to the material you need to work with. You put the work onto the jig with the work edge against the raised edge of the jig. Adjust the rip fence so the jig goes against the fence and the blade trims the outside edge of the work.

Second TS jointer jig is just like the one above, but you use the toggle clamps... You put the jig against the fence. You adjust the blade to the outside edge of the jig. You put the work next to the jig and hold it with the toggle clamps (You have the hold the jig down to hold it.) As you move the jig, the blade cuts between the jig and work.

Third TS jointer jig is like a stationary table/auxillery fence/jig/sled... sort of affair. Cut a straight edge of ply about 36". Cut the front half of that edge another 1/16". Put on 1/4" dado blade. Put the blade down. Mount a miter bar, just like you would for a sled, with the platform even to the right of the blade, the most left edge of the ply in back and the less than than to the front, with that rear side left edge parallel to the left side of the blade. Clamp down the jig. Turn on the saw. Raise the blade slowly to full height.

You now have a TS auxillery jointing fence. You raise the blade just so the gullet starts to clear the work hieight. Feed the work along the edge of that fence. It will hit the blade and be cut. The new surface will be supported by the rear edge.

There's 3 of the jointing jigs I use on table saws... I use a forth, but that one I use on sleds and sliding tables. That one is just basically a tapering jig.

I tried using a sanding drum on my RAS with the first jig above along the fence and the drum along the outboard side. Works good, but it takes forever, so I gave up on that...

Tip- I always do the convex edge first, then the concave edge.


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## Mickeyt (Nov 12, 2012)

MAFoElffen said:


> "Square" is checked by a square, not by calipers... Past comment. 90 degrees on your saw should be 90 degrees if you set via you wixey angle gauge. I use and trust those gauges. But, back to square...
> 
> You say the first glue up stage you are fine. If they are fine, then you are coming out square in your tooling (at least for that). Then you rip and join for your second stage and you're off on your mating edges?
> 
> ...



Yep your right, for some reason I was not thinking of square but thickness, my BAD it was getting to late for me last night I guess.
I ts been awhile since I did the boards in the photo’s but I believe what I did with the one in the first photo was what you suggested that being after the first cut I ran the cut offs through the drum sander lightly, and it worked out fine, I also did a few after that that did not work out as well. Sooooooo ? I also make the 2ed cut using a small cut off sled, it could be the sled is off a tad, but then again one worked perfect and some did not. This is the reason I asked about the router / joiner set up hoping it will be more consistent.

For sure I would love to see jig plan.

Thanks again
Mick


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## Mickeyt (Nov 12, 2012)

Willway said:


> Mick that is some beautiful work, would almost make me want to smack someone for using a knife on one!


Willway and James thanks for the nice commints

All my boards are finished with a meneral oil and bee's wax finish and non of them have feet or cut outs for handles, that way people can use them on one side and display the other side if they wish.


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## Mickeyt (Nov 12, 2012)

greenacres2 said:


> Here's a jig that may help as well for straight lining:
> http://www.routerforums.com/introductions/38861-jointing-router.html ...the third post in the thread.


*greenacres* 
Thanks for the link, lots of information there, of course one link leads to another link and another, before you know it is has been 2 hours before you get back to where you started. LOL

Thinking of using one of the ideas to build my own.

Thanks again Earl
Mick


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## greenacres2 (Dec 23, 2011)

Mickeyt said:


> *greenacres*
> Thanks for the link, lots of information there, of course one link leads to another link and another, before you know it is has been 2 hours before you get back to where you started. LOL
> 
> Thinking of using one of the ideas to build my own.
> ...


Truly. The combined posts on here are enough to earn at least a Master's Degree of Routerdom (MDR), and many of the contributors have their Doctorates!! If i ever can use 5% of what i've read here i'll be much better for it.

earl


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## mudcat (May 3, 2011)

What you are experiencing(gap on one side of glue up) happens even with good jointing etc. Unless the fence and blade are perfectly square you can get a misfit. There is a cure for this. On a jointer you put the two pieces(edges) that are to be joined through the machine with the "top" or "bottom" faces toward each other. Even if the jointer fence or blades are not perfect one piece gets cut one way while the other piece gets a reverse; but perfectly matching cut. Make sure you mark the surfaces so you align them consistently when gluing up.

Using your table saw you can do the same thing. If the blade is not perfect, reversing the orientation of the 2nd piece will make it match the 1st piece. Be sure to run the boards all the way through and past the blade, as it may not be perfectly parallel to the fence


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