# Tongue and groove joint



## L Town Graphics (May 24, 2012)

I remember seeing on the forum someplace a link to a YouTube video or instructions on making a tongue and groove joint using just a straight bit. Have any of you tried it and to what degree of success did you have? Was it easy to set up? I plan on making a new work bench using some 1x12's cut at 2' long. It's going to be 2'x4 when I'm finished. And I would like to use a 1/4" straight bit to make each joint (I also plan on edge gluing them for added support.) I know many of u would say use a piece of plywood for the top etc but I want to do something that is a little more authentic considering that I will be using it strictly for sign making, routing sanding staining etc.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

I would be more inclined to do that on a table saw with dado blade but a straight bit will do it too. Set the fence for the groove so that the bit is centered across the edge of the board. Do all of those first. Then set the fence so that the bit is exposed just a bit and make a pass along each side. Keep moving the fence back until the tongue fits in the groove. Remember that each adjustment of the fence is doubled because you will be passing each side past the bit.


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## L Town Graphics (May 24, 2012)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> I would be more inclined to do that on a table saw with dado blade but a straight bit will do it too. Set the fence for the groove so that the bit is centered across the edge of the board. Do all of those first. Then set the fence so that the bit is exposed just a bit and make a pass along each side. Keep moving the fence back until the tongue fits in the groove. Remember that each adjustment of the fence is doubled because you will be passing each side past the bit.


Chuck thank you for the pointers!


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Dan, once you get the hang of it this method is almost as easy as using tongue and groove bits. Practice on some scrap and you will do just fine.


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## jschaben (Jun 21, 2009)

Hi Dan - They are also pretty easy to do with slot cutters. The advantage is that the stock is always run on the flat instead of the edge.


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## L Town Graphics (May 24, 2012)

Mike said:


> Dan, once you get the hang of it this method is almost as easy as using tongue and groove bits. Practice on some scrap and you will do just fine.


Thanks for the confidence Mike!


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

You're welcome Dan. I agree with John that using slotting cutters would make the boards easier to handle, especially with the width you plan to use. 
There is one thing you might change from what I first said. When you make the groove, you might want to turn the board around and make a second pass. This will ensure that the groove is dead center since you are cutting the same distance from the fence on each side just as you will do when you make the tongues. The groove may wind up slightly wider than the cutter but you are going to make the tongues to fit anyway.
The same principle workss with John's slotting cutter suggestion and on the table saw too.


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## L Town Graphics (May 24, 2012)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> You're welcome Dan. I agree with John that using slotting cutters would make the boards easier to handle, especially with the width you plan to use.
> There is one thing you might change from what I first said. When you make the groove, you might want to turn the board around and make a second pass. This will ensure that the groove is dead center since you are cutting the same distance from the fence on each side just as you will do when you make the tongues. The groove may wind up slightly wider than the cutter but you are going to make the tongues to fit anyway.
> The same principle workss with John's slotting cutter suggestion and on the table saw too.


Good points Chuck. I kinda figure and plan on this taking more than one pass to acheive what I'm looking for. I know exactly what you guys are saying with the slots etc but that's a piece of equip. I do not have in the shop.


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## Chris Curl (Feb 13, 2012)

or a horizontal router with a straight bit ...


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

L Town Graphics said:


> I plan on making a new work bench using some 1x12's cut at 2' long. It's going to be 2'x4 when I'm finished.


I'm a literal type guy, so not 100% sure I get want you want to do.
You're planning on laying the pieces flat, right? With tongue and groove on just the ends? Or on all four sides?
If just on the ends, I would not put all two foot pieces in it, the joint would be all in one line. Instead I'd cut two one foot pieces and one two foot piece for every other. 

I would not consider those joints 'difficult', more time-consuming to set up than anything else. I would not use them in something like what you want, but if that's what you want, do it.

However, knowing me, I would probably just lap four foot pieces, making the top double thickness, with no T&G at all.


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## mgmine (Jan 16, 2012)

Since you mentioned a plywood top I would assume that you are edge joining the boards. If that is the case then why not use 2x3's glued together to make a thicker top. That is what my bench is made out of and it will last a life time.


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## L Town Graphics (May 24, 2012)

JOAT said:


> I'm a literal type guy, so not 100% sure I get want you want to do.
> You're planning on laying the pieces flat, right? With tongue and groove on just the ends? Or on all four sides?
> If just on the ends, I would not put all two foot pieces in it, the joint would be all in one line. Instead I'd cut two one foot pieces and one two foot piece for every other.
> 
> ...



Theo, here is my plan. The boards are approx 12" wide. Taking that into consideration I know that I will have to use 5 boards. The length of the boards will be 2'. Those ends will be the short side of the rectangle as I am building this table into the wall of my shed, notching out 1" of the three studs it will cross through. I am using the T n G to help with stability and personally I think it will look authentic. I'm sure most people would do it the way you suggested using 4 boards and running them 4' long. As I said I want original.... Something different. The joint will be on the sides connecting the boards only. Hope this helps clarify my original post


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Hey, Dan; I'm not sure but I think 'JOAT' is basically suggesting that a nominal or full dimension 1" top is potentially at risk for warping, or at least I think that's what he's saying (?).
You probably should be looking for 1/4 sawn boards to reduce the risk, and narrower rather than wider in the selection process. Reversing the crown, if there is any, on every other board is supposed to help.
Personally, I'd prefer a more substantial work surface if only to dampen vibration.


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

DaninVan said:


> Hey, Dan; I'm not sure but I think 'JOAT' is basically suggesting that a nominal or full dimension 1" top is potentially at risk for warping, or at least I think that's what he's saying (?).
> You probably should be looking for 1/4 sawn boards to reduce the risk, and narrower rather than wider in the selection process. Reversing the crown, if there is any, on every other board is supposed to help.
> Personally, I'd prefer a more substantial work surface if only to dampen vibration.


Remember the pic I posted on my cabinets- The island? The counter top is glued T&G 1x12's 6' long. Of course their laid down on 3/4 ply and edge banded (trim). That's how the counter top for the rest of the kitchen is done also.

If you did it that way... No problem warping and a lot stronger, especially since you are using it as a workbench.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

L Town Graphics said:


> Theo, here is my plan. The boards are approx 12" wide. Taking that into consideration I know that I will have to use 5 boards. The length of the boards will be 2'. Those ends will be the short side of the rectangle as I am building this table into the wall of my shed, notching out 1" of the three studs it will cross through. I am using the T n G to help with stability and personally I think it will look authentic. I'm sure most people would do it the way you suggested using 4 boards and running them 4' long. As I said I want original.... Something different. The joint will be on the sides connecting the boards only. Hope this helps clarify my original post


Ok; now I'm really confused! 5 x 12" is 5' yet you say that the 2' dimension isn't the "end" of the table blank (?). 3 studs are approx. 3' in wall distance; how are you going to slide a 5' blank into a 3' opening? See? I'm _really_ confused!
If the 5' length is _perpendicular_ to the 2' pieces that's a _really _bad idea joint wise, unless, as was suggested, you laminated it to a 3/4" plywood base slab. Waaay too much stress on the longitudinal joints, if it's supported along the two end pieces (2') .


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

This is a math thing right?

Given:
- Table is 5'x2'.
- 1x12's are really 0.75"x11.25" 
- T&G tooling depth for 3/4" stock is 0.25" 

Laterally, 11.25 x 2 pieces - (0.25 x 2) for each side of the joint, which comes out to 21.75 inches wide, leaving a deficit of 2.25" off the 24" wide goal.

Laterally, 11.25 x 5 pieces - (0.25 x 8) for each side of the joint, which comes out to 54.25 inches long, leaving a deficit of 5.75" off the 60" long goal. It would actually be a little shorter with a slight jointer pass before tooling your joint... That way you get a tight joint. 

Taking all into account- 6 pieces starting out at 10.5 inch wide (and 2 foot long), after tooled with T&G joints would come out to 60 inches long.


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## L Town Graphics (May 24, 2012)

you guys thought way to far into this..... the bench top im making will be a rectangle 2'x4' yes i know I will have to cut a board down to get to that length because when you consider a 1/2" of each board with the exception of the two end boards is going to be used as the joint.... 1/4" on each side. for the comment on the studs, my studs are on 16's.... 16x3 is 48. to also clarifiy things the boards are approx 12" wide. I cut the length to 2'. the width (12") sides are what i will be joining T n G.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Dan; can you do a quicky a sketch ? 
I wasn't worried about the finer points of the dimensioning but rather the general concept. 3 studs is _two_ stud spaces, ie 32" ctr. to ctr.
3 stud spaces is _ 4 studs_ or 4' ctr. to ctr.
I'm still not clear on how the support relates to the _length_ of the panel. If the 4' dimension is _perpendicular_ to the individual boards and joints, and one side of the 4' panel isn't fully supported, that's the weakest possible scenario from a structural pov. My approach would be "can I stand in the centre of the panel with the short sides supported?" If you were up 8' in the air, would you trust the joints to carry your weight?


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## L Town Graphics (May 24, 2012)

DaninVan said:


> Dan; can you do a quicky a sketch ?
> I wasn't worried about the finer points of the dimensioning but rather the general concept. 3 studs is _two_ stud spaces, ie 32" ctr. to ctr.
> 3 stud spaces is _ 4 studs_ or 4' ctr. to ctr.
> I'm still not clear on how the support relates to the _length_ of the panel. If the 4' dimension is _perpendicular_ to the individual boards and joints, and one side of the 4' panel isn't fully supported, that's the weakest possible scenario from a structural pov. My approach would be "can I stand in the centre of the panel with the short sides supported?" If you were up 8' in the air, would you trust the joints to carry your weight?


Dan,

Finally got around to a sketch.... Main reason in doing the tng is to try it (never done it figured why not try it). In the future is like to use the joint for sign making. Personally I like the look. It's going to be 2' from the studs coming towards you and 4' across.


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

DaninVan said:


> Hey, Dan; I'm not sure but I think 'JOAT' is basically suggesting that a nominal or full dimension 1" top is potentially at risk for warping, or at least I think that's what he's saying (?).


Oops, nope, I'd gotten so confused I forgot about the 1" factor; somehow I was thinking 2X12s. If I had been thinking of the warping I would have definitely advised a thick top, of several layers.


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

L Town Graphics said:


> Finally got around to a sketch....


OK, now it's clear. I kept thinking you were running them long ways, and couldn't figure out what you were wanting to do. 
Yep, I'd say that would work. Almost. I would definitely want a thicker top, because I'm thinking that unless you plan on some substantial support underneath, like a spiderweb of 2X4s, I would almost bet it will warp sooner or later.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Ahhh, ok, now I get it, Dan! The support legs and stringers got lost in the shuffle. 
You could probably save yourself the trouble of notching the studs by simply securely screwing a ledger to them, upon which the back of the slab would rest. Why weaken the studs unnecessarily? 
Another thought; hinge the back stringer to the studs and put folding legs under the front stringer. That way you can swing the top up out of the way if you need the space.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Theo has again focused the discussion on the 1X_12_" issue. I absolutely agree that warping will occur, either now or later, unless it's quarter sawn. Even then I wouldn't bet on it staying flat across the individual boards. 
If it were me I'd saw the boards into 3" pieces (width is 3"+/-) and either T&G them or spline them back together, turning alternate pieces upside down.
Great opportunity for honing your hand plane skills...lol
Cheers, Dan,
-Dan


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## L Town Graphics (May 24, 2012)

**Update** The boards are all cut and TnG joints are cut. Not sure if I mentioned it or not but I have a cabinet that this will be the top of.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Uh, no you didn't. So why are you notching the wall framing? It's not shown in your sketch(?).


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## L Town Graphics (May 24, 2012)

DaninVan said:


> Uh, no you didn't. So why are you notching the wall framing? It's not shown in your sketch(?).


I ended up omitting the notch and just ran a stringer across and screwed the top down to it. Putting the legs on it tonight as well as any other supports


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Heh...wish I had a buck for every time I worried a construction detail to death in the planning stage, then just sailed through the actual doing of it. Then do it all over again the next time... 
(Hope I'm not alone in that.)
I spent months worrying and planning how to move my hot tub by myself, off the old h.t. deck, then back onto the new one. As it turned out it was about a 1/2 hour job with my come-along. (*Kicks self*)


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## L Town Graphics (May 24, 2012)

DaninVan said:


> Heh...wish I had a buck for every time I worried a construction detail to death in the planning stage, then just sailed through the actual doing of it. Then do it all over again the next time...
> (Hope I'm not alone in that.)
> I spent months worrying and planning how to move my hot tub by myself, off the old h.t. deck, then back onto the new one. As it turned out it was about a 1/2 hour job with my come-along. (*Kicks self*)


I have a bit of a creative mind and not alot of knowledge. I am a "learn to do by doing" kinda person. My shed where I do all of my wood working I built with my dad and his knowledge. He built his garage and the additions to our hunting camp. He did all the designing I did the labor. All of this wood working and routing I'm learning on the fly but I enjoy it and makes me some money here and there


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## MT Stringer (Aug 15, 2012)

If not too late, you might want to consider putting down a 2/4 inch piece of MDF and then attach your boards to it. Should turn out nice and flat...and thick enough to beat on. 

I used part a solid core door (1 3/4 inch) and glued on Formica for the top. That thing is rock solid.


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## MT Stringer (Aug 15, 2012)

I meant to type 3/4 inch mdf. Sorry.


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## L Town Graphics (May 24, 2012)

MT Stringer said:


> If not too late, you might want to consider putting down a 2/4 inch piece of MDF and then attach your boards to it. Should turn out nice and flat...and thick enough to beat on.
> 
> I used part a solid core door (1 3/4 inch) and glued on Formica for the top. That thing is rock solid.


Well at this point it is a lil late, already attached the stringer on the front and back. I also ran some glue in the joints for a lil extra stability. Keep in mind I'm routing sanding and painting on this table/setup nothing more.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Re my original contention about "standing on it"...you're good as gold. I wouldn't hesitate, seeing your final configuration, although I still think that 1X12" wide boards are problematic. You know, if it turns out to have issues, no big deal to unscrew it and deal with it later.


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