# Price vs. Safety



## wm_crash (Nov 30, 2009)

OK, so it's generally accepted that cheaper bits will usually not last as long asn more expensive bits. But what about safety? Would you be concerned to place in your router a bit that you bought on eBay for $3. I'm not going to name names, but if you've ever looked on eBay for bits you know what I mean.

A gentleman posted on a different forum the following:

"No matter which DIY level you are at, do NOT use cheap bits, especially carbide. You don't want to even CHANCE having sh*t fly off at you at 14,000+ RPM!!! 

Skimp on the router, not the bits. Seriously."

Then he posted the following:

"The cheap bits, like most cheap stuff, comes from China. I have nothing against China, and I am not a Right-Winger, but they've already proven time and again that our well-being means nothing over the almighty dollar. They can make something LOOK real good. But are those bits zone-hardened? Are they tested for Rockwell hardness? How is the carbide bonded to the bit head? Are the pilot bearing rated for the RPM's? What about the bearing retainer bolt? Is it case-hardened steel?

These are things I do NOT want to think about everytime I chuck a bit into my router, with the bit facing up in the table and my hands and head exposed to whatever might happen. Sure, I wear safety glasses, but you can shove 'em up your butt with a flying router bit or pieces thereof."


Any opinions out there?

thanks much,
wm_crash, the friendly hooligan


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## Ghidrah (Oct 21, 2008)

Inexpensive or not made, in China or not, one needs to ask why a company would import a product that wasn't verified via quality testing by independent authorities prior to investment, unless all concerned didn't care. One might also wonder why there isn't an enforced minimum quality standard all must abide. Like any business, one builds to customer specs or one supplies a customer with a basic agreed upon product and any upgrade options. 

Regarding the problems with imported Chinese products over the last couple of yrs., drywall, pet food, baby toys and whatever the most recent boner was. All these products were bought by American importers because of how the hugely discounted price, (which if it didn't backfire) would nicely pad their purses and wallets. One can't fault a Co. for wanting to improve profits, but one can fault it for how its done.

Did the Chinese companies purposely alter an existing accepted product, did they provide a product currently accepted in their country or did they build to spec? There're too many unanswered questions. 

Regarding culpability issues no one concerned wants to talk about where the fault lies so as to rectify the problem. You'd think the foreign Cos would say hey We sold them what they asked for or what they chose, the importers would say this is not what we agreed to and here's the proof or the retailers suing both for fraud. 

In general as long as I have so many unanswered questions and a mistrust for importers and retailers as a consumer the only thing I can see that would solve the problem is not to buy Chinese made products. Unfortunately this is becoming more difficult to do every day month and yr.


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## newwoodworker (Mar 27, 2009)

Im no expert by any means on router bits but I would assume in a world as sue happy as we have today that even lower price router bits must fall within a standard of safety Ive been using a 10 piece set from Harbor Freight for a little over a year and when I compare the prices to ones at some of the "well known" woodworking websites that sell bits the entire set I got is cheaper than most of their SINGLE router bits I haven't used them heavily but I used them enough that if they were going to explode into shrapnel they would have by now.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

"Any opinions out there?"

Here's just one , I have over 2,000 router bits and many are from eBay and not one of them has every lost a blade or snapped a screw off..I will say I use the Feed Back item on eBay and I must not be the only one that is satisfy with the lower end bits and it's true they are not all made the same ,some have thin carb.blades but work very well for the home shop..
eBay My World - ghsu2ia3

I have use bits from all around the world..and most of them are made the same way..

=======



wm_crash said:


> OK, so it's generally accepted that cheaper bits will usually not last as long asn more expensive bits. But what about safety? Would you be concerned to place in your router a bit that you bought on eBay for $3. I'm not going to name names, but if you've ever looked on eBay for bits you know what I mean.
> 
> A gentleman posted on a different forum the following:
> 
> ...


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## Hamlin (Dec 25, 2005)

There is some truth and merit to your concerns. However, in short as Bj has posted. Check into the seller first. Check their ratings, read the feedback posted. This will give you an indication of rather or not to trust this sellers bits/tools, etc.


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## plane collector (Jun 3, 2010)

Just a word or two about Samona bits. I've used them and they are perfectly fine. The welds from body to carbide look good. And they are a fraction of the cost. Here's the way I see it: 

Does anyone remember Gillette blue blades having a close shave? Remember when Wilkinson blades introduced their stainless blade? The close shave for Gillette and others was the fact that Wilkinson came out with a product that was going to last about 10 times longer than the old blades. So with Samona: Samona has come out with router bits priced for about what they're worth. Not a hell of a lot and now Freud and company are going to have their close shave. That is, unless it can buffalo enough people into believing that Freud can do something Samona can't do. I seriously doubt it. 

A couple of months ago I picked up a Samona digital caliper for 15 bucks. I've compared it to my Mitutoya caliper and it's smack on. Maybe Mitutoya is about to have a close shave too! 

Buy American if you want to be loyal but as a Canadian I'm going to buy what works well for the most reasonable price.


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## wm_crash (Nov 30, 2009)

Hamlin said:


> There is some truth and merit to your concerns. However, in short as Bj has posted. Check into the seller first. Check their ratings, read the feedback posted. This will give you an indication of rather or not to trust this sellers bits/tools, etc.


Well what if those who were going to leave negative feedback had no fingers left to type their feedback comments?? :haha:

I guess I will give a shot to my Heleta bits and see what happens. I really need a big angle chamfer, like a 60 degrees, but I can live with Heleta's "horse nose" which is 65 degrees. The only other option is a 60degree chamfer from Amana, which is almost $100. As a week-end warrior still trying to figure out if I'm cut for woodworking, I can't justify that cost to myself.

Thanks to everyone for the input!

cheers,
wm_crash, the friendly hooligan


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## Hamlin (Dec 25, 2005)

With pricing being the biggest concern for everyone. You do have other options other than ebay. Check EagleAmerica, Rocklers, Grizzly, Woodcraft, MLCS just to name a few woodworking suppliers. There are many, many more suppliers.


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## jschaben (Jun 21, 2009)

wm_crash said:


> Well what if those who were going to leave negative feedback had no fingers left to type their feedback comments?? :haha:
> 
> I guess I will give a shot to my Heleta bits and see what happens. I really need a big angle chamfer, like a 60 degrees, but I can live with Heleta's "horse nose" which is 65 degrees. The only other option is a 60degree chamfer from Amana, which is almost $100. As a week-end warrior still trying to figure out if I'm cut for woodworking, I can't justify that cost to myself.
> 
> ...


I've been using Heleta bits for some time now with no problems. I like the profile on their drawer/door finger pull bit and have used that one a lot.
If you want to see some chintzy bits, order some from Heartland America *not to be confused with EagleAmerica*. Those bits are a perfect example of cheap, potentially dangerous, bits.


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## Cochese (Jan 12, 2010)

I've been most pleased with my HF bits. Not the greatest things ever, but I've not once felt unsafe using them.


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## plane collector (Jun 3, 2010)

wm_crash said:


> Well what if those who were going to leave negative feedback had no fingers left to type their feedback comments?? :haha:
> 
> I guess I will give a shot to my Heleta bits and see what happens. I really need a big angle chamfer, like a 60 degrees, but I can live with Heleta's "horse nose" which is 65 degrees. The only other option is a 60degree chamfer from Amana, which is almost $100. As a week-end warrior still trying to figure out if I'm cut for woodworking, I can't justify that cost to myself.
> 
> ...


What if the people buying the expensive bits don't have enough money left to buy a computer and take part here?


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## rwyoung (Aug 3, 2008)

bobj3;189071I must not be the only one that is satisfy with the lower end bits and it's true they are not all made the same said:


> eBay My World - ghsu2ia3[/URL]
> 
> I have use bits from all around the world..and most of them are made the same way..
> 
> =======


+1 on the bits that George Hsu sells through his ebay shop. I've purchased maybe 15 different ones from him over the past few years. I don't run thousands of feet of material through them so I can't say how long they will last. But for the white oak, cherry, pine, mahogany, walnut and assorted rosewoods I've pushed through they cut fine. Keep them clean and they cut just fine.

Other bits I've had good luck with are those from MLCS (seem to get "dirty" fast, might have something to do with the coating, or could be my imagination), Freud and WhiteSide. The only bit I have that is damaged was purchased from Harbor Freight on a whim. I didn't notice the chip when I bought it or used it the first time but later found the chip. That isn't to say the damage wasn't there from the git-go or that I caused the problem by dinging the carbide on something. It has been retired from service.


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

rwyoung said:


> Other bits I've had good luck with are those from MLCS (seem to get "dirty" fast, might have something to do with the coating, or could be my imagination), Freud and WhiteSide. The only bit I have that is damaged was purchased from Harbor Freight on a whim. I didn't notice the chip when I bought it or used it the first time but later found the chip. That isn't to say the damage wasn't there from the git-go or that I caused the problem by dinging the carbide on something. It has been retired from service.


I have used primarily MLCS bits cutting pine or other big box store local lumber yard soft woods. The bit I used most did seem to lose its sharpness. I obtained a bit cleaning kit from Rockler (as I recall the MLCS bit cleaning kit required special shipping; the Rockler kit did not). I used it as directed, and the bit was nearly completely restored.

In my opinion you are very wise to have retired the damaged bit. Visible damage can hide much more serious internal damaged, and anything rotating at 20,000 rpm is not something to have come apart.


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## rwyoung (Aug 3, 2008)

mftha said:


> I have used primarily MLCS bits cutting pine or other big box store local lumber yard soft woods. The bit I used most did seem to lose its sharpness. I obtained a bit cleaning kit from Rockler (as I recall the MLCS bit cleaning kit required special shipping; the Rockler kit did not). I used it as directed, and the bit was nearly completely restored.
> 
> In my opinion you are very wise to have retired the damaged bit. Visible damage can hide much more serious internal damaged, and anything rotating at 20,000 rpm is not something to have come apart.


I've gone the "cheap" route for cleaning bits. I use either 409 or "Simple Green" and a stiff bristle fingernail brush. Works great if not a little bit slower and more labor intensive than specialty cleaners. I can buy both these in bulk containers for short money and they work well as general purpose household cleaners too. One key to this method is to clean the bits as soon as you notice the pitch buildup. The pitch is easier to remove when "fresh" versus letting it accumulate and cook. It still comes off with 409 but that takes more elbow grease.

Do the same for my table saw blades except that I also add an inexpensive plastic tray so I'm not sliding the blades around on the kitchen counter. :fie: The local dollar store had some but before I found those I picked up some $1 dishtowels for the same purpose. They also make great, large, washable shop rags.

Post cleaning they get a spritz of WD-40, not for any lubricating properties but because it does a great job of displacing water. Then wipe thoroughly with a clean towel and done. No rust issues.

Oven cleaner does work but I don't care for the smell or possible issues with breathing the overspray. Plus there is some concern about it attacking the brazing. I haven't researched the interactions between the chemicals in oven cleaner and metals but it could be possible to cause long term damage. However I have the gut feeling that the damage only occurs after LOTS and LOTS of contact. More likely the blade or bit will have been worn out long before any accumulated damage to the brazing becomes an issue.


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## BOB 2 (Jul 20, 2006)

just curious. Just what do you expect to have happen with the so called "cheap" bits from the dark hole?

The tone of this thread suggests that the bit suddenly explodes sending shrapnel around the work place. More likely, the tungsten cutters are off spec and either not aligned or made from a cheap mix of TC with inclusion bodies in the metal. (brittle)
We have to decide what is valuable to us individually and set out to buy that quality.
If you got a bit for 3 buck that does what you want you have a bargain.
If it came from China you have a miracle.


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## Hamlin (Dec 25, 2005)

BOB 2 said:


> just curious. Just what do you expect to have happen with the so called "cheap" bits from the dark hole?
> 
> The tone of this thread suggests that the bit suddenly explodes sending shrapnel around the work place. More likely, the tungsten cutters are off spec and either not aligned or made from a cheap mix of TC with inclusion bodies in the metal. (brittle)
> We have to decide what is valuable to us individually and set out to buy that quality.
> ...


No matter who made it. Every once in a great while a "lemon" will slip through the specs. It doesn't happen often but, it still happens. I've seen chipped cutters, out of specs. bits and even bent shafts on the bits. Along with quality that we each expect from a company or seller, it all comes down to "customer service". As you've said, we each have our own likes and or dislikes about tools and associated products. Personal preference.

BTW, I've seen China made tools outlast american made tools. In todays world, it comes down to... money!! How much is a company going to spend for QC!!


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## PURSITA2 (Mar 6, 2010)

Slightly disappoiunted to see nothing but chinese complaints and "get what you pay for" comments. As a newcomer to this forum i was expecting knowledgeable craftsmen who had criteria by brand type of construction (ie solid vs fused carbide), etc. I will check in again to see if there are further helpful comments.


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## Andiamo (Mar 7, 2009)

I've tried several brands over the years, and I now buy just about all of my bits from MLCS. The quality (especially of the Katana brand), price and above all top-notch customer service (not to mention free shipping) does it for me.

Roger


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## redbeard (Jun 14, 2010)

*I totally agree with PURSITA2*



PURSITA2 said:


> Slightly disappoiunted to see nothing but chinese complaints and "get what you pay for" comments. As a newcomer to this forum i was expecting knowledgeable craftsmen who had criteria by brand type of construction (ie solid vs fused carbide), etc. I will check in again to see if there are further helpful comments.


I am a new member to this forum. I agree with PURSITA2. For 15 years I worked as a welder. I welded Aluminum and Stainless steel. A local company in Tampa Florida makes the carbide tipped blades to cut aluminum (and every other type of blades for any type of material). These blades for cutting aluminum were -10 degrees with a triple chip cut. I would get years of work from each blade without any teeth coming loose or becoming dull. Several times I used the "big box stores" carbide blades with only a -3 (the only type they carried made to cut aluminum) degree cut and I would be lucky to get a months worth of cutting from them. Usually the tips would be missing in action in regularly use. Yes the local company was 4-5 times the money and worth every darn cent of it on these blades. To know which brand is good or great I do not know. The manufacturer in Tampa told me that there are many grades of carbide and better ways to mount the carbide tips. I was also told that many (at the time Mexico) times that the foreign companies did not have the same grinding tools and the workers were not required to wear the safety equipment that a grinder needed to wear in the U.S. So some of the extra money is for personnel safety of the shop worker grinding the carbide blades. The chop saws I used were the same saws that a wood worker uses. I have not calculated the surface speed of a 12" blade turning at thousands of RPMs x 12" diameter ( that is about 3' for every revolution ) vs. the 1" ( about 3" per revolution) router turning 20k RPMs. I know for myself if you have a company that is local making bits that last years in the commercial arena talk to them first. For myself I would not like the blade to come off, shank to break, or shatter on me. I have had a abrasive cut off wheel explode on me and I would rather not do that again. The body takes a little longer to heal with shrapnel embedded within the body. In yesterday's world the more money you spent on a tool generally would give you a better tool. Today it does not always mean you get a better tool just because you spent more money - or even stayed with the same brand. Loosing time off from work because of an injury would cost you how much $$$ per day? And how much more was the better blade? What would you do if the bit goes through your safety glasses and permanently damages your eyesight??? Whatever you purchase get some good stuff.
Redbeard in Tampa


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## g3en (Jun 9, 2009)

Most of my bits come rom mclswoodworking.com. Their standard bits are reasonably priced and they have free shipping. They have higher quality bits for more money, but for my haome shop, the more economical ones are satisfactory. Check them out.


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## mitchal (Aug 30, 2009)

I bought a set of raised panel,rail and stile, bits from ebay. Ran them through some tough black walnut and have had no problems to date. I feel very safe with the bits and will buy from ebay again when I need to do so. I can't justify paying twice or three times for a name brand when a less expensive set work just as well. Perhaps when I hit the lottery my opinion will change.


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## clifft (May 18, 2010)

don't know about safety,
blades and bits (now defunct) only bit not good (or me) was
glue joint bit. Craftex from Busy Bee ok, elite bits seem ok
although not impressed with box joint bit from last year.
Leigh jig bit sets seem very good, Lee Valley bits good,
Freud from router bit world? $1 shipping - I get shipped to
a US address. Other cheap sets seem ok.
Definitely thicker carbide on Freud. I figure if I am going to
use a bit a lot - I get a better quality, but otherwise have
bits to cover most shapes I want.
In reviews I have read, have not heard about bits being
unsafe. I have no idea for sure where they are made.
Could be US, Taiwan, China, Italy ??
my 2 cents - no idea either about weld quality, would
really need some sophisticated test equipment to know that?

Can always get a bad high price bit, and some good cheap bits.
No way to know till you try.


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## istracpsboss (Sep 14, 2008)

I'm with you Cliff. I've bits from cheap eBay deals with bits costing less than a dollar each that have worked OK and others from CMT and Freud, generally bought when there was a deal on.
I've never worried about them being unsafe, although I normally inspect a bit before inserting it. These things haven't been soldered up in some back street sweatshop. Even the cheapest ones are made on fully automated (and likely the same make of)automated machinery, so apart from the final finish, I'm not always convinced there's a big difference. Just how many manufacturers of automated router bit machinery are there? I don't think they could make them this cheaply if they were made any other way. I find it very difficult to judge products on price in the way that used to be possible.

Freud make a point of being the only manufacturer to make their own carbide but I'm not sure why this should be any different from buying in from someone like Sandvik. It's a bit like that old chestnut,'specially selected'. Specially selected, no doubt, but on what basis ? Funnily enough, the only bit I've noticed some pitting on is a Freud bit, but it gets lots of use and I'm not holding that against them.

I think it comes down,in the end, to speak as you find. Cheap router bits aren't any more inherently unsafe than dearer ones. If some of the cheap ones are cheap because someone needs to shift some stock in a hurry to keep the bank happy, they can often be quite good ones. The cheap ones anyway are usually cheap enough for you to do your own QC on and reject the occasional one.

Cheers

Peter


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## Marc R (Jun 10, 2010)

Hi Folks;
Just thought I'd chime in on this. I bought a set af 1/2 shaft bits, 35 in total, from a local supplier on sale for $55 2 years ago. Each one has a bearing. They came in an aluminium case. I've used them alot without any trouble. I don't know how they can sell bits so cheap and still make a profit! I know off shore labour is cheap but come on, 35 bits for $55. Are we so addicted to cheap goods that we'll sell North American manufacturing down the river:nono: I still buy Freud and others made in North America but for a starter set of bits, I think their ok.
Marc R


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## Hamlin (Dec 25, 2005)

One should never "skimp" on safety, even many Companies have learned this lesson... the hard way. 

I will say this one more time. _*IT MATTERS NOT AS TO WHOM MADE IT*_. It matters as of the QUALITY CONTROL that it has to pass. There is a reason as to why manufacturing companies have certain "specs" that they follow.


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## Marc R (Jun 10, 2010)

My point exactly! If it's for sale in this country or any other for that matter, it should be up to that countries standards. Our building codes (Canada) won't allow us to use non "CSA" approved products, yet there are thousands of them out there for sale at reputable retailers. As much as they try to uphold these standards, we all have to take precautions and don't skimp on protection (glasses, guards, etc.) An accident can be life altering in seconds!
Work Safe!!
Marc R


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## plane collector (Jun 3, 2010)

Marc R said:


> Hi Folks;
> Just thought I'd chime in on this. I bought a set af 1/2 shaft bits, 35 in total, from a local supplier on sale for $55 2 years ago. Each one has a bearing. They came in an aluminium case. I've used them alot without any trouble. I don't know how they can sell bits so cheap and still make a profit! I know off shore labour is cheap but come on, 35 bits for $55. Are we so addicted to cheap goods that we'll sell North American manufacturing down the river:nono: I still buy Freud and others made in North America but for a starter set of bits, I think their ok.
> Marc R


What? And you still have all your fingers and your eyes and there's no carbide bullet holes in your shop ceiling and walls? And none of the bearings have failed and turned to dust? And you haven't worn them all out? Well just give them another 40 or 50 years and you'll see why you need to buy Freud! 

One more comment on the price of the 35 for 55 bucks. The only reason why we can't believe that is because we all probably don't understand that's all the damn things are worth! Freud could probably make em for 60 bucks if they had to. As long as people are going to buy em for 55 bucks a bit, Freud doesn't have to. 

A question though: If they can make pop cans for 2 cents, why can't they make router bits for 3 cents? Something to think about?


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## BOB 2 (Jul 20, 2006)

Hamlin said:


> BTW, I've seen China made tools outlast american made tools. In todays world, it comes down to... money!! How much is a company going to spend for QC!!


The topic was *price vs safety*.

Someone used a $3.00 bit as an example.
I have responded to that . If you want to talk quality then China is capable of quality as they have either duplicated or imported most of the worlds best equipment.
My experience has been that in the majority of instances they don't have the will to make quality and prefer to cut corners at every opportunity.
That pretty much narrows the field down to about 6 major producers of carbide cutters. Whiteside, CMT and MLCS all have good reputations but none have $3.00 bits.


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## BOB 2 (Jul 20, 2006)

PURSITA2 said:


> Slightly disappoiunted to see nothing but chinese complaints and "get what you pay for" comments. As a newcomer to this forum i was expecting knowledgeable craftsmen who had criteria by brand type of construction (ie solid vs fused carbide), etc. I will check in again to see if there are further helpful comments.


It might be helpful if you read the topic of the thread before "unloading" so to speak.
If you wish to discuss brand preferences and physical make up of product , feel free to start up a new topic.


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## Cochese (Jan 12, 2010)

bob oswin said:


> The topic was *price vs safety*.
> 
> Someone used a $3.00 bit as an example.
> I have responded to that . If you want to talk quality then China is capable of quality as they have either duplicated or imported most of the worlds best equipment.
> ...


It's price vs safety, not price = safety. The most expensive bit can fail, the cheapest bit can last five years.


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## clifft (May 18, 2010)

Hamlin said:


> One should never "skimp" on safety, even many Companies have learned this lesson... the hard way.
> 
> I will say this one more time. _*IT MATTERS NOT AS TO WHOM MADE IT*_. It matters as of the QUALITY CONTROL that it has to pass. There is a reason as to why manufacturing companies have certain "specs" that they follow.


Sorry to have apparently skipped your comment on quality control, and
safety being important. I agree on both counts. One reason why I will
not use collet reducers, as I don't feel they are safe.
CSA and Iso standards are almost a joke.
Years ago involved with trying to sort out iso standards for some equipment.
It seemed then as long as the entire process is well documented you could
be conforming to iso. It did not matter if the product was of a lousy design,
just as long as the process was well documented.

Quality control is almost as elusive. How does one know if brand X QC is
better than brand Y QC. Quality Control is often done on a statistical
basis, like one in a thousand off a production line. Inspection of welds
requires some elaborate equipment I would suspect.

Up to a point, the market will decide and report defective or poor quality.

This applies to any product. 

The best we can do is a visual examination, a test run, and see if we are
satisfied. I still stand to one side when I turn on a bench grinder.


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## istracpsboss (Sep 14, 2008)

So do I !

Cheers

Peter


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## BOB 2 (Jul 20, 2006)

Cocheseuga said:


> It's price vs safety, not price = safety. The most expensive bit can fail, the cheapest bit can last five years.


What do you think the odds are of that?


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## clifft (May 18, 2010)

bob oswin said:


> What do you think the odds are of that?


Without statistical data on failed bits, it is difficult
to come to an informed conclusion on safety vs price.

An easy calculation of odds is on winning the 649,
they are 1 in 14 million.

I was trying to find out the minimum safe insertion
depth for STRAIGHT router bits - using to make
mortise and tenons in a jig, where I wanted maximum
cutting depth.

I have a Freud straight bit #12-128, 1/2 dia, 1/2 shaft.
Overall length is 3.9 inches, cutters are 2 inches.
This bit has an etched line showing minimum insertion
depth, located at 0.95 inches from the end of the bit.

I transposed this 0.95 inch line to a Leigh solid
carbide 1/2 inch dia bit for use on their FMT jig.
Used a cd/dvd marking pen.

I made 1.55 inch deep mortises with matching tenons,
2.5 inches wide for a lumber rack. I could gain
a little more depth with the Freud bit.

NOTE: This 0.95 inch guideline would NOT apply to cutters
with a larger diameter than 1/2 inch. No such marking
was on the Freud vertical panel bit.

Just in case someone has struggled with the same problem.


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## plane collector (Jun 3, 2010)

Hamlin said:


> With pricing being the biggest concern for everyone. You do have other options other than ebay. Check EagleAmerica, Rocklers, Grizzly, Woodcraft, MLCS just to name a few woodworking suppliers. There are many, many more suppliers.


Or just go to a builder's supply store and buy the cheap ones that work well for you at a tenth of the price of the American made brand names. 

A wood box of 10 Samona bits for $20 and the sky has not fallen on me yet after 6 months use.


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## toolgle (Sep 21, 2010)

Hi from a newbe

Right here goes

I used to work for a company in the UK that manufactured router bits titman tip tools ltd (have moved on to better things) and here is the truth

Titman and Demar (i think you can buy them under the Trend machinery brand) and neck and neck with quality.
Titman will last that little longer but you will suffer with finish as it has a harder grade of carbide.

Onsrud in the US are a very good brand and excel with spirals.

Everybody else follows behind.

In answer to your original question is this

*In this game you get what you pay for.*

Why are router bits so expensive? it is because 75% of carbide ore is mined from China and they dictate the price worldwide.

Cheaper bits are made by unskilled worker, low quality carbide and very poor knowledge of grinding angles. (many of the tips of cheap imports are not brazed on straight)

I hope this has enlightened and not been too boring

Steve


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## clifft (May 18, 2010)

toolgle said:


> Hi from a newbe
> 
> Right here goes
> 
> ...


Thanks for the insight Steve
Is Demar the same as Dimar in Canada?
Is the carbide brazed by hand or machine?
How do we know which quality of carbide is used by whom?
In fact, what is the best quality carbide?
(You mention harder grade not as good a finish but keeps
its edge longer)

I just bought a raised panel set from Sommerfeld. They
told me their bits are made in China. Very sharp, clean
cuts in pine. One advantage with the coping bit is longer
shank - a height consideration if using a coping sled.
Carbide is not as thick as Freud, who claim you can
sharpen more often - not necessarily a guarantee of
carbide quality.

Just re-designed a non-sacrificial base coping sled, so shank 
length is an important consideration.

Also and infinity set, carbide as thick as Freud, but
back cutter has 3 wings, and slightly cleaner edge on
the back.

Also a Freud quadra bit - so I can compare quality of cut.

I picked up a different glue joint bit from elite - 7/8 dia,
(most are 1 1/2 in dia) This $15 bit, does a very good
job. But no guarantees that a second one would be to spec?

ok, goes beyond simply price vs safety, but then usually
more involved to a simple question.


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## jetpilot (Jul 7, 2010)

:help:Well someone said read the thread before you reply (34), I did!!!, and here is what I got out of it.:agree:yes4::nono::yes:::haha::yes2::moil::thank_you2:::shout::nono::'):wacko::dance3::It has been my experience in buying todays tools, that it is almost impossible to buy any "AMERICAN" name brand tool that is made in USA. Most all are made in far away
lands, China, Spain, Taiwan, India, Korea, etc, etc. I have bought "BARGIN" stuff, and yes some of it is junk, (made in USA) and others are better than the high dollar name brand stuff. Our Unions have raised the cost of labor in this country so that our (some) workers are well over paid for the work that they are supposed to be doing. Actually they are no better qualified than many of the offshore workers.

The old and stable adage, BYER BEWARE IS STILL TURE:sold:


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## toolgle (Sep 21, 2010)

clifft said:


> Thanks for the insight Steve
> Is Demar the same as Dimar in Canada?


Sorry Typo Dimar it is. They are Isrealy made and along with British TTT(dont like pluging them since leaving but..) are possibly the best in the world.


clifft said:


> Is the carbide brazed by hand or machine?


Dimar/Freud are machine though i believe small batches are still hand - TTT by hand


clifft said:


> How do we know which quality of carbide is used by whom?
> In fact, what is the best quality carbide?
> (You mention harder grade not as good a finish but keeps
> its edge longer)


Nearly all manufactures use Ceratizit carbide and claim that their nano teeny-weany smaller than an ants testicle grain carbide is the best but in truth the high end cutters Dimar/Trend TTT are like a pro 100 metres race - at the end its very difficult to separate them (Every once in a while a Usain Bolt of carbide appears but they soon catch up)TTT works with its own hard metal sister company and can develop its own carbide.



clifft said:


> I just bought a raised panel set from Sommerfeld. They
> told me their bits are made in China. Very sharp, clean
> cuts in pine. One advantage with the coping bit is longer
> shank - a height consideration if using a coping sled.
> ...


TTT developed a grade of carbide (and as they do - they didnt market it properly) that contained more iron which aloud the tool to have a sharper edge. This was a great advantage with cutting soft woods but the cost is a lower life span. (still a great deal more than HSS though)
Use a professional sharpening service to improve the life of your tools. The backs of the cutters can be relieved when the diameter of the tips dictate.

The question I was asked the most - How long will your cutters last? And the only answer is - about that long! If any manufacturer tells you that "our cutters *will* cut ####yards" they are telling you something to get a sale. I know what TTT cutters can cut in test conditions but the real world is different. I know TTT cutters *can* cut well over 1000metres (1100 yards) in MDF (1/2" dia straight double flute) but give it to the new boy cutting cheap chipboard along with the nails and old car doors that you find in the cheap baords and its a completely different world.

more info at diyheroes.com


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## toolgle (Sep 21, 2010)

clifft said:


> How do we know which quality of carbide is used by whom?
> In fact, what is the best quality carbide?
> (You mention harder grade not as good a finish but keeps
> its edge longer)


Nearly forgot this one - Best Quality Carbide? all depends on what you are doing? even the top manufacturers have different grades of carbide.
So whether you are cutting wood, aluminium or solid surface materials there will be a tool made for the job!

The harder the carbide the more brittle it becomes so the edge will get tiny chips(not noticeable) but will last longer. Softer tips will need to be sharpened more often and have a shorter life! Beware the fantastic like our tips contain titanium, sounds fantastic a hard modern material like titanium! Truth is it makes the tips more brittle!
:jester:


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## MKTGChristine (Apr 21, 2011)

Samona router bits (the yellow ones) are actually made in Taiwan, and are made in the exact same factories using the exact same quality as many top name brand router bits. The only difference... You aren't paying for the name brand. The Powersonic (green router bits) also made by Samona, are slightly lower quality and are made in China; they are a decent bit if you are using them once in a while or for a small project, but if you are looking for the top quality that lasts, I would recommend the yellow ones. Same quality as the big names at a fraction of the price!


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