# Feed rates on a 300w Spindle?



## ReliefArtist (Jan 6, 2020)

Hello.

I just purchased a 4040 CNC machine with a 300w spindle. Because the spindle is low-power, i'm worried about burning the motor out. Say if I wanted to make letters 1cm deep, and 1cm in thickness? Should I remove 1mm per layer? What would my ideal feed rate be with a 1/2 inch diameter V bit, connected to a 1/8 inch er11 shaft?

How deep can I cut without straining the motor?

If your feed rate is too slow, can you damage the motor?

My warranty is only good for 3 months, but i'm going to try and get a year out of this motor, so I don't want to run it at 20000 rpm and burn it out.I want to use softwoods like pine and spruce.


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## PhilBa (Sep 25, 2014)

300W is pretty small. Slow feed won't kill your spindle but can cause overheat problems and shorted bit life. 

Take some time to understand feeds and speeds. That's an overlooked area for a lot of beginners. Each bit and material has an optimal chip load. Load is based on the number of flutes, spindle speed and feed rate. Too low and you have rubbing and friction. Too high and you stress the motor and/or frame. Plus, you can get a very poor cut and broken bits. Look to the bit manufacturer for feed and speed recommendations. 

The thing you will need to figure out on your own is how much of a depth of cut your machine will allow. It has to do with the spindle but also with how rigid your machine is. The cheap Chinese machines are notorious for flexing under load which means poor cut quality. You compensate by using a shallow DOC with multiple passes and thus a much slower process. 

I'd start out fairly conservative and then move up. Can you control spindle speed? If you can't get a high feed rate, you can cut your spindle speed. You can also go to a single flute bit which doubles your chip load.

Also, I've never seen a 1/8" shank V Bit with a half inch diameter cutter. Where did you get it?


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## difalkner (Jan 3, 2012)

Welcome to the forum! Add your first name to your signature line to clear the N/a in the side panel and so we'll know what to call you. Add your location, as well.

What material are you cutting? If your feed rate is too slow you'll likely burn the wood, or at least get it smoking. And a feed rate too slow will get the bit too hot and that will damage the bit. 

Your chips need to carry the heat off the wood and the bit. I cut fairly aggressively and the chips and wood are pretty warm but the bit is no more than every so slightly warm when I finish a cut.

David

Edit - You and I were typing at the same time, Phil :grin:


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## PhilBa (Sep 25, 2014)

difalkner said:


> Welcome to the forum! Add your first name to your signature line to clear the N/a in the side panel and so we'll know what to call you. Add your location, as well.
> 
> What material are you cutting? If your feed rate is too slow you'll likely burn the wood, or at least get it smoking. And a feed rate too slow will get the bit too hot and that will damage the bit.
> 
> ...


I just have my feed rate cranked up higher than yours!


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## PhilBa (Sep 25, 2014)

By the way, David has a very nice machine that is fairly rigid and can tolerate aggressive feed rates. I have a cheapo extruded aluminum V-wheel machine that flexes under a direct stare - hope to rectify that soon.


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## difalkner (Jan 3, 2012)

PhilBa said:


> I just have my feed rate cranked up higher than yours!


Want to have a spitting contest??? :wink: I cut 1/2" Baltic Birch in one pass at 175 ipm on a regular basis but have cut at 250 ipm a few times and have been told that 175 ipm is very conservative and that I need to be cutting faster. I even cut at 600 ipm once! :grin:

David


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## PhilBa (Sep 25, 2014)

Different kind of feed rate. But in the contest of machine feed rates, you win walking away.


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## difalkner (Jan 3, 2012)

Haha! Just having phun, Phil. When I go to my friend's cabinet shop where he has his $100k CNC and cutting 3/4" plywood and MDF at 800 to 1200 ipm in one pass it makes my machine look like a toy. LOL! Someone always has one bigger/faster/more powerful whether it's a CNC, table saw, bandsaw, jointer, etc.

David


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

1200 ipm? That's 100 feet a minute. I barely walk that fast anymore.


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## difalkner (Jan 3, 2012)

I've seen some videos on YouTube where the CNC is cutting 2000 ipm and even faster. It's fascinating!

David


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## ReliefArtist (Jan 6, 2020)

With my first cut, I did a feed rate of 2mm (0.08 inches) a second, to cut a circle 7cm (2.75) in diameter. My depth of cut was 1mm (0.04 inches) each pass. It sounds like I was way to slow  

I have manual RPM control... If I had to guess I was around 12000. I just turned the knob, and didn't look at the screen.

Anyways... I'm wondering if you can go fast, as long as your the depth of cut is shallow. For example if I take 0.5 millimeters off (0.02 inches), each pass, can I go really fast?

Does the trade off with a 300 watt motor, mean... I should keep my depth of cuts more shallow than someone with a 1.5 kilowatt machine?

Here's a photo of my machine. I think it's a step above the 3018's you see on Aliexpress.


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## PhilBa (Sep 25, 2014)

Generally we talk about feeds in mm/min or in/min (IPM). 

You will need to experiment and find where your machine performs well. But, I'm pretty sure you can go faster. On my machine I started at about 500 mm/min and ramped up to 2000 mm/min. For wood, typically, I take a depth of cut around 1/2 the bit width for end mills (straight, spiral, ...). With Ball Nose, pretty much the same. A V Bit is harder to figure out because the deeper you go, the higher the load, even with multiple passes. I typically use a relatively shallow finish cut - .2 to .4 mm. These were all arrived at via experimentation. I kept upping the feed rate until the cut quality degraded and then backed off a bit. I still tweak it based on the material. 

As you work with your machine, you will get a better sense of where it's sweet spot is for a given material. There is no substitute for doing.


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## ReliefArtist (Jan 6, 2020)

PhilBa said:


> 300W is pretty small. Slow feed won't kill your spindle but can cause overheat problems and shorted bit life.
> 
> Also, I've never seen a 1/8" shank V Bit with a half inch diameter cutter. Where did you get it?


Forgive me, but i'm Canadian... I just took my digital caliper and got 6mm on the shank, with 22 mm on the cutter. That converts to 1/4 inch on the shank and 7/8 inches on the cutter.

It came with my CNC, and there are no measurements... So I'll have to measure them myself.


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## ReliefArtist (Jan 6, 2020)

PhilBa said:


> As you work with your machine, you will get a better sense of where it's sweet spot is for a given material. There is no substitute for doing.


I just don't want to burn out the motor. The guy who sold it for me, works for the factory in China that produces them. He said the motors fail pretty quickly, because of the low power (300 watts)... So my guess is, people don't know how to use them... and they have had to deal with returns

It's the same thing with blenders, you can burn the motor if you use it wrong?

So what can I do... to keep the motor safe from burning out?


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## ReliefArtist (Jan 6, 2020)

PhilBa said:


> Generally we talk about feeds in mm/min or in/min (IPM).
> 
> On my machine I started at about 500 mm/min and ramped up to 2000 mm/min.


I started with 2mm a second, so that's 120mm a minute... 25% your speed. Whats the watts of your spindle?


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## PhilBa (Sep 25, 2014)

You'll just need to use it. If you hear the spindle bogging down, decrease your DOC. If you see poor cut quality, decrease your feed rate. Also, feel the spindle while it's running. If it's getting hot, slow down the feed or decrease the DOC. I have a contactless thermometer that I used when getting to know my machine - it runs totally cool even after an hour of routing.

You might want to consider getting a trim router to replace your spindle. I have a DW611 and it seems to do ok. Haven't had a problem with it yet. I've got several hundred hours on it to date.


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## ReliefArtist (Jan 6, 2020)

PhilBa said:


> You'll just need to use it. If you hear the spindle bogging down, decrease your DOC. If you see poor cut quality, decrease your feed rate. Also, feel the spindle while it's running. If it's getting hot, slow down the feed or decrease the DOC. I have a contactless thermometer that I used when getting to know my machine - it runs totally cool even after an hour of routing.
> 
> You might want to consider getting a trim router to replace your spindle. I have a DW611 and it seems to do ok. Haven't had a problem with it yet. I've got several hundred hours on it to date.


What's the absolute minimum RPM you would recommend? If the RPM is too slow, can you damage the machine? I'm wondering because I have very narrow bits for high resolute cuts (relief art), and don't wanna break them.


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## ReliefArtist (Jan 6, 2020)

PhilBa said:


> I have a contactless thermometer that I used when getting to know my machine - it runs totally cool even after an hour of routing.


You mean one of these things? Just aim it at the Spindle... Thanks for the advice 

What temperature would be too hot, and what is optimal?


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## difalkner (Jan 3, 2012)

PhilBa said:


> As you work with your machine, you will get a better sense of where it's sweet spot is for a given material. There is no substitute for doing.


I agree, Phil. Some of the items I regularly cut, like the Longworth chucks, were cut at 125 ipm and a DOC of about 0.2" per pass when I began. Now I cut them at a still conservative 175 ipm but full DOC for the material, about 0.475" in one pass. Nothing changed on the machine or software, it was just me getting comfortable with higher feed rates and greater depths of cut.

Unless your spindle is getting hot while running and doing that often I doubt it will burn out. As has been said, make sure it is running at a good temp - you should be able to touch it with no problem - and adjust your feed rates to get the best cut. Do some tests and keep cranking the feed rate until your cut quality degrades and then back off. Then do the same with the DOC. You'll arrive at a feed/speed/DOC that works for you, your machine, and the material you're cutting.

David


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## difalkner (Jan 3, 2012)

ReliefArtist said:


> You mean one of these things? Just aim it at the Spindle... Thanks for the advice
> 
> What temperature would be too hot, and what is optimal?


My infrared model quit working but the last time I checked my spindle was around 100° after cutting for about 20 minutes. I can easily put my hand on the spindle and the bit after cutting. Just a tip - wait until the bit comes to a complete stop before testing the temp with your hand... :wink:

David


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## MEBCWD (Jan 14, 2012)

Sean The most important thing to remember you don't want to run the spindle at top speed all the time. I would probably try to set the spindle speed to about 3/4 of the maximum speed and calculate the feed rates. this will give you a starting point to slowly tweak the depth of cut and feed rate so you get the best cut and don't overheat the spindle or bit.


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## PhilBa (Sep 25, 2014)

You got some good advice on your various questions.

Basically, heat, sound and vibrations are how your machine talks to you. Become attuned to those and you will know if you are stressing it. 

On the heat front, your spindle, stepper motors and stepper drivers are the main things to look at. In general electronics and motors should be run at no more than about 60C for long periods of time. That will feel quite hot. If too hot, you need to slow something down. Maybe feed rate. Look for your material burning, you will smell it. If so, your spindle is too fast.

If your bit is cutting badly because you are moving it too fast or it's too dull or your DOC is too much, you will get a lot of vibrations and perhaps even visible flexing of the machine. Back off on feed rate and or DOC. Your cut will probably look like crap too.

Listen to your spindle. If it bogs down a lot as you start a cut, you need to back off. maybe feed rate, maybe DOC. Note that some spindles have a feedback control mechanism that is slow to react to changes in load - it will drop it''s speed for a second and then speed up. That's ok. Not sure your's has feedback, though.

But, in all this, you are going to simply have to run your machine and get a feel for it. All the theory in the world is useless if you don't. And, if you burn the motor out, it's not the end of the world because you can replace it with something better.


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## BalloonEngineer (Mar 27, 2009)

Is your spindle brushless, or does it have brushes (like most routers)? If it has brushes, worn brushes is the most likely failure that will cause issues, they are usually cheap and it is best to have some spares on hand before they go. Get in the habit of blowing the dust out of your motor frequently. 

Experiment with your bits (you do need to buy others, different types, having only one you have will severely limit your options) and the materials you are likely to cut. Just cut slots at various feeds and speeds to see what gives the cleanest cuts. Vary the depth of cut as well. Listen to the machine, you will be able to learn the difference between clean cuts and issues such as chattering by ear. Ideally you want to be creating (warm) chips, not dust. Fast feeds and slower speeds tends to work better for me, you will learn what works on your machine, but it will take experimentation, do that before worrying about getting projects done.


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## ReliefArtist (Jan 6, 2020)

difalkner said:


> I agree, Phil. Some of the items I regularly cut, like the Longworth chucks, were cut at 125 ipm and a DOC of about 0.2" per pass when I began. Now I cut them at a still conservative 175 ipm but full DOC for the material, about 0.475" in one pass. Nothing changed on the machine or software, it was just me getting comfortable with higher feed rates and greater depths of cut.
> 
> Unless your spindle is getting hot while running and doing that often I doubt it will burn out. As has been said, make sure it is running at a good temp - you should be able to touch it with no problem - and adjust your feed rates to get the best cut. Do some tests and keep cranking the feed rate until your cut quality degrades and then back off. Then do the same with the DOC. You'll arrive at a feed/speed/DOC that works for you, your machine, and the material you're cutting.
> 
> David


I'm getting close to an idea of where I want to start, but as you can tell... I'm playing it safe, by asking alot of questions. I want to have this machine last long enough to pay for itself, so I can purchase a better machine, once I start selling signs. How many watts was the motor you used, and is it air cooled or water cooled?

If you had an entry level... Chinese CNC, in the picture I showed... If you were cutting pine with a 1/4 inch endmill... What would you you IPM and DOC... If you only have a 300 watt spindle at 10000 rpm? Can ya make a guess.... for high and low end?

I think I have a decent frame... Certainly better than the 3018's... But the drive belts looks sensitive... I don't want to loosen them, by putting too much pressure on my frame.

As you can see, these are very thing narrow belts.


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## difalkner (Jan 3, 2012)

ReliefArtist said:


> I'm getting close to an idea of where I want to start, but as you can tell... I'm playing it safe, by asking alot of questions. I want to have this machine last long enough to pay for itself, so I can purchase a better machine, once I start selling signs. How many watts was the motor you used, and is it air cooled or water cooled?
> 
> If you had an entry level... Chinese CNC, in the picture I showed... If you were cutting pine with a 1/4 inch endmill... What would you you IPM and DOC... If you only have a 300 watt spindle at 10000 rpm? Can ya make a guess.... for high and low end?
> 
> I think I have a decent frame... Certainly better than the 3018's... But the drive belts looks sensitive... I don't want to loosen them, by putting too much pressure on my frame.


Well, ours is a 3kW water cooled spindle. So it's 3000 watts (4 hp). And I am probably not the guy to ask because I don't recall ever cutting Pine on the CNC and maybe only twice on other shop projects for quick structures - I don't even have any except what came in on machinery pallets.

If I were to guess, and it would be a guess, I would keep the ipm low - 75 and lower, maybe even 50 and lower. As for DOC, I would keep it at maybe 1/2 the bit diameter at most and go from there. If it runs without chattering, stalling, burning, etc. then increase one factor at a time. Then increase the other factor and see how it does, etc.

I think the kicker on yours is going to be the drive belts. Generally anything with a drive belt needs to be run slower and easier than a machine with ball screws or rack & pinion.

What sort of signs are you wanting to cut? If this is hobby income then if the sign takes a bit longer it's probably ok. But if you need to crank out 25 signs each day then you'll need a different machine.

David

Edit - you can see our machine here - http://www.routerforums.com/cnc-routing/97721-2nd-build-first-cnc-router.html


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## ReliefArtist (Jan 6, 2020)

So basically I want to protect the frame first and drive belts first.

I want to protect the spindle second.

And my last priority is saving the life of the bit, because I would rather dull a few bits before replacing the motor.

I can replace the bits for about $2 each. If I buy 10 of them, I get free shipping.


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## MEBCWD (Jan 14, 2012)

You might find that the pine is not the best wood to do testing with but if that is what you want to use for your signs then you are correct to use it for testing, just remember there may be a lot of cleanup because of fuzzies. Also it will depend on any pre-treatment you do to the wood before carving. That will all come later after you get used to how your machine runs and figure out the limits you have.


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## ReliefArtist (Jan 6, 2020)

difalkner said:


> What sort of signs are you wanting to cut? If this is hobby income then if the sign takes a bit longer it's probably ok. But if you need to crank out 25 signs each day then you'll need a different machine.


Well basically my thinking is that I'll make money faster than investing in mutual funds... Since you average 10% ROI in a mutual fund. Instead of buying a mutual fund, I bought a CNC machine. I realize you can't get rich overnight... But I do understand the power of exponential growth, when you upgrade equipment and your productivity.

So the plan is to develop a few funny signs.... Like cute fishes for fisherman, and funny signs for people with cottages.... I think I want to create hilarious signs, so people will buy them... (because humor sells) But I want to make them simple with V cuts... So they don't take forever to carve.

I'm going to design about 5 different vectors, and produce the same patterns over and over again.... (So i'm not wasting time making a custom design every day) I'm going to let the machine run, while i'm watching TV, and start stockpiling what it produces. Once I create a website, I'll try selling them locally, or shipping them online.

In Canada Spruce is very cheap. I can buy a 2x12x16 for $38... That's about $2 a square foot, and i'll just mill those pieces. I don't even want to touch hardwoods, until I purchase a better machine.

My priority is to build my profile, and pay this thing off.

I want to get into relief art, but that's very time consuming, so for now... I want to make some signs, to start a new fund... to purchase my next machine... For my next machine, i'm hoping to get something with at least 1.5 KW in power.

I also want to get into custom picture frames, but it's a very competitive market... So I want to begin with signs.

If I don't break this machine... I'll keep it to do relief art, since it's very accurate... and use something more powerful to make signs. Also the 300w motor is quiet, so there're some benefits.


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## MEBCWD (Jan 14, 2012)

Sounds like you have a game plan already. Just take a while to get to know your machine and what it is capable of and you will be well on your way.


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## Pro4824 (Oct 17, 2015)

ReliefArtist said:


> (So i'm not wasting time making a custom design every day) I'm going to let the machine run, while i'm watching TV,


Be careful and keep an eye on it while it's cutting. 👍
It can burn your shop down while you're watching TV. 🙂

https://youtu.be/D2xoxPlDnW4


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## difalkner (Jan 3, 2012)

We built ours 2 1/2 years ago and I still watch it cut - it's _*still *_fascinating! Plus, we don't even have TV service so no problem with stepping away (cancelled it years ago). 

I generally stay in the shop the entire time the CNC is cutting even though I may be on another piece of equipment at the time. Most of what I cut is over with pretty quickly so no point in going to do something else. But I haven't been doing those 3-4 hour 2.5D and 3D carvings, either. 

David


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## ReliefArtist (Jan 6, 2020)

Pro4824 said:


> Be careful and keep an eye on it while it's cutting. 👍
> It can burn your shop down while you're watching TV. 🙂
> 
> https://youtu.be/D2xoxPlDnW4


This is where I tend to disagree. I think it's a good idea to keep an eye on it, but I think people should put them in safe places that can't start a fire. Why not put them beside a concrete wall, or build something around it, to keep your house safe from fire.

No one wants to watch the machine every minute during a 10 hour cut... Also i'm not sure how healthy it is... to stay beside a machine all the time, breathing in the air. Why don't they sell power outlets, that are hooked up to smoke alarms... That way if it smokes, it cuts the power?

All we need to do is invent hybrid power outlets/smoke alarms, and have them calibrated to cut power when there's smoke instead of sawdust.

This is the kind of innovation the industry should be talking about.

In my opinion, I would rather take more time setting everything up properly, than stress out about checking the machine every 5 minutes. I want to relax, and let the machine make money when i'm doing household chores. I purchase this to make passive income... And not have to quit work, to watch it all the time.

In the mean time, let's make sure nothing around our machines can catch fire.


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## Pro4824 (Oct 17, 2015)

Or just could at least point a cheap IP camera at it and watch it on your phone.


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## ReliefArtist (Jan 6, 2020)

Pro4824 said:


> Or just could at least point a cheap IP camera at it and watch it on your phone.


It's still like getting hundreds of messages on your phone... I think it causes undue stress, to be thinking about your machine every few minutes. CNC is a long process... So I think we should take more time debating about how to set things up properly, so were not becoming paranoid about how it's running.

Personally, I think we should put a fireproof barrier beside our machines... If they are close to a flammable wall, or ceiling.

When I use to buy and sell on craigslist... Id be checking messages every 5 minutes, worried I wasn't responding to people fast enough. I learned to chill out, and check twice a day, and if I miss some sales, I don't worry about it.


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## ReliefArtist (Jan 6, 2020)

Pro4824 said:


> Or just could at least point a cheap IP camera at it and watch it on your phone.


That's not a bad idea... There's no harm in trying that. Life is about Balance... Just have to figure out what's optimal.


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## ReliefArtist (Jan 6, 2020)

I plan on copying the same signs 20 to 50 times... So once I watch it once, i'll know how much heat it produces, and how much dust/chips I'll have to clean up. I'll know what to expect after I produce the first one.


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## difalkner (Jan 3, 2012)

Fires typically start on the work piece, not with what's around the machine. So unless your wood or work piece is fireproof then that should be your point of focus. 

If I planned to do some of those long running jobs - like 3, 5, 8 hours - then I would definitely walk away from the machine. But most of my jobs are very short and there's no real opportunity to really get fully involved in another job.

David


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## PhilBa (Sep 25, 2014)

Fires, while very unusual, are pretty random. A poorly clamped workpiece or random machine failure is more often the precipitating cause rather than the workpiece burning. But any problem can lead to machine damage and the cost of inattention can be pretty significant. So, knowing how a given machine program runs doesn't really protect you. Like the bumpersticker says "$hit [email protected]". Having an IP camera is a reasonable idea but, no matter what, you really need to be attentive to your process - five minute or five hour job. I have my machine set up in the basement and can faintly hear it running while upstairs. Any change in the sound is cause for investigation. My typical runs are at least 30 minutes so I will start it up and do other things all over the house. Just recently, I had a double sided tape that failed and it pushed the piece around on the bed. Wouldn't have caused a fire but I would still rather have know immediately.


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## Pro4824 (Oct 17, 2015)

ReliefArtist said:


> I want to relax, and let the machine make money when i'm doing household chores. I purchase this to make passive income... And not have to quit work, to watch it all the time.


I wish you luck my friend. 😉


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## UglySign (Nov 17, 2015)

I'd rather be safe than sorry, to be at a reasonable distance in case of the inevitable should occur.


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## difalkner (Jan 3, 2012)

ReliefArtist said:


> I want to relax, and let the machine make money when i'm doing household chores.


I'd rather have an iRobot Roomba do the vacuuming and the dishwasher running in the house while I'm out in the shop watching the CNC and doing other shop tasks. :wink:

David


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

I got a feeling he's going to be grossly disappointed with the results he's going to get. He'll either go bigger and faster or give it up.


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## Pro4824 (Oct 17, 2015)

The general population sees CNC machines as a Star Trek Replicator, you lay a board on it, tell it what you want and press "PLAY" then a few minutes later your part is finished and people are standing in line waiting to buy it. 
Which is why Joat is always downing them. 🙂 Most people will never see or appreciate the hours, months, years spent developing the knowledge to produce the finished products that they see as inferior to "handmade" because it was just "made by a machine."
They think these machines are fully integrated with A.I. and come preprogrammed for any task you ask of it. 
Trying to explain to the average person, the amount of information that must be programmed into these "magic machines" just to complete the simplest task is difficult at best and usually pointless. 
With over 10yrs as a Network Analyst, I'm fully aware that people aren't interested in "How" their computer works, just "That" it works. 🙂
I'll quit rambling, I just think that if you're only looking for a money making machine, maybe a few well placed Coke machines might be a better option. You go fill them up in the morning and collect the money each night. 😉


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## Pro4824 (Oct 17, 2015)

difalkner said:


> We built ours 2 1/2 years ago and I still watch it cut - it's _*still *_fascinating! Plus, we don't even have TV service so no problem with stepping away (cancelled it years ago).
> David


WHAT!! No TV!!! 😉
Actually, we cancelled our dish network years ago too. 100 channels of nothing worth watching. We do have an antenna for our local fake news and Netflix for Andy Griffith reruns and cartoons for the grandkids. 👍 🙂


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## PhilBa (Sep 25, 2014)

Pro4824 said:


> The general population sees CNC machines as a Star Trek Replicator, you lay a board on it, tell it what you want and press "PLAY" then a few minutes later your part is finished and people are standing in line waiting to buy it.
> Which is why Joat is always downing them. 🙂 Most people will never see or appreciate the hours, months, years spent developing the knowledge to produce the finished products that they see as inferior to "handmade" because it was just "made by a machine."
> They think these machines are fully integrated with A.I. and come preprogrammed for any task you ask of it.
> Trying to explain to the average person, the amount of information that must be programmed into these "magic machines" just to complete the simplest task is difficult at best and usually pointless.
> ...


3D printing is even more extreme in the popular imagination. But the vast amount of the inherent complexity of any machine can be ignored. I don't need to understand electrodynamics at all to use a table saw or fluid dynamics to use a dust collector. A CNC router is just a tool. And, you find some sort of computer controlled machine at the heart of many small businesses. A sign business, for example, that cuts signs by hand will have inherent limitations whereas one with a CNC will be able to produce more products and do more business. The customer for the most part doesn't care if the part is made with hammer and chisel, hand routed or machine cut. I'd bet the "cheating" argument played out when the electric router was first introduced. And the experience argument applies to fully manual operations as well as computer controlled ones - skill must be acquired to be able to produce something people want to buy.

But your point about starry-eyed newcomers is true. People are always looking for shortcuts and the marketing folks know how to suck them in. Whenever I see anything that talks about making money with a tool, I move along 'cause everything else is probably BS too.


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## TimPa (Jan 4, 2011)

OP, not to much has been disussed on the tooling. i read where you are not concerned about tool price, 1/8" bits are not expensive. but, if you follow a good chip rate for the tool, i suspect that you will not be placing any part of the machine in jeopardy, including the spindle. if the company is installing motors that cannot support a recommended chip rate for a tool, then it is under-designed.


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## ReliefArtist (Jan 6, 2020)

So I got around to making my first sign. I used a V-bit to carve down 3mm (1/8th inch) deep. I programmed it to step down 0.5mm (0.02 inchs) per layer... My feed rate was 10 millimeters per second (24 inches per minute). You're going to laugh. "I Don't Need Sex. My Government Screws Me Everyday".

The cut was very smooth, but there was a fair amount vibrations, since I could only clap down the right side, and the top. The bottom left corner was exposed. Next time.. I'll rotate the vector... To mill horizontally... so I can clamp it down on 3 sides. I'll go with a feed rate of 40 inches per minute.

I've had to take tweezers to pull off some of the coating that was still sticky. I still have a little bit left to do.

I paused it 30 minutes into the cut, and put my hand on the spindle... It was only slightly warm.

I didn't calibrate the machine correctly, and the words were about 3% bigger than normal. I had to cut power to the machine, before it tried to mill the border... or it would of rammed into the clamps.

I don't expect to get rich, but eventually I wanna make enough money to upgrade the machine. Thanks for all your advice... I appreciate it.

This is from a shelf board. The cost of this piece is $2.75 and it comes with a nice finish.

I have this one for sale, for $5 in the Buy and Sell... I just want a quick sell for motivation, and then i'll increase my cost, when I start making custom signs.


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## PhilBa (Sep 25, 2014)

Looks like you're on your way. If you want to do painted signs, look into low tack vinyl. I paint my sign boards, apply the vinyl, route through it, spray the letters with a contrasting color and then remove the vinyl. Looks great.


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## difalkner (Jan 3, 2012)

Pro4824 said:


> The general population sees CNC machines as a Star Trek Replicator, you lay a board on it, tell it what you want and press "PLAY" then a few minutes later your part is finished and people are standing in line waiting to buy it.





PhilBa said:


> 3D printing is even more extreme in the popular imagination... A CNC router is just a tool.


You can go pretty extreme on this, too. There are folks with the opinion over at Neanderthal Haven that if you use a table saw, jointer, power tools at all, then you're cheating. ALL woodworking should be by hand! 

Well, I focus on the end result. It's funny how I can use most every tool in the shop for a project but if it landed on the CNC for even one simple operation then it's a CNC project. Wrong! It's a shop project, it's made of wood, and if I didn't know what I was doing then all the CNC power in the world won't make my project magnificent. The CNC is just another tool in the shop and I use it when it makes sense to do so (as Phil has said and I've said many times). 

Do I have projects that I do because I have a CNC? Absolutely! Just like I have projects that I do because I have a great Laguna bandsaw and can resaw very thin pieces to make guitar backs/sides/tops and to bend wood for other projects. I also have projects that I came up with strictly because I have an old scroll saw and I don't have another tool that can replicate that. 

I could go on and on but you get the idea. CNC = tool. It might be the fanciest tool in the shop and the one everyone wants to see running but in the end it's just another tool.

My $0.02

David


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## PhilBa (Sep 25, 2014)

difalkner said:


> You can go pretty extreme on this, too. There are folks with the opinion over at Neanderthal Haven that if you use a table saw, jointer, power tools at all, then you're cheating. ALL woodworking should be by hand!
> 
> ...
> CNC = tool.


I can see the ol' boys sitting around the shop in 1905 talkin smack about those woodworkers usin that 'letricitee. No workmanship left. Every technology advance has always been met with reaction.

What I think the anti CNC crowd is missing is that creativity springs from the mind, not the tools. Skill is the ability to direct the tools to create what they imagined. I could probably go on and show lots of examples of bad imagination executed with all sorts of tools including CNC but will stop here.


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