# Feed Direction, Complicated?



## kolias (Dec 26, 2008)

It’s not very easy to grasp the feed direction of a handheld router. I know that on a handheld router the bit spins clockwise and on the table it’s the opposite. That’s the only easy part.

When the router is table mounted, I find it easier since you can only push the stock against the fence and then feed the stock from the front into the spinning bit. 

But with a handheld router it gets complicated because you must be aware if you are going from front to back and where the fence or router guide is. Then comes if you have a template to follow; when you route on the inside of a template you move the router CCW and on the outside you move CW.

How the heck can you remember all this when you try to concentrate on your cut? Does it come with experience only or there are some “golden rules”?

As an example, on the attached photos I try to make a groove on a table. Are the directions correct?

Thank you,


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

The face of the Carbide must approach the wood, so hand held, the router moves from left to right or anti-clockwise on an outside surface, however, on an inside surface the opposite is true.
So if you think about it, on a table, the wood is fed from right to left. To grasp this concept, hold a cutter in your hand and rotate it clockwise with cutter facing down and you will understand the above.


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## Drew Eckhardt (Aug 2, 2008)

kolias said:


> How the heck can you remember all this when you try to concentrate on your cut?


Don't. Before you start just arrange things so that the carbide is moving into the wood.


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## rwyoung (Aug 3, 2008)

Harry will appreciate this one...

"Right Hand Rule". No, not the one for E-field and Magnetic field and current flow...

Hold out your right hand (I'm assuming you have a right hand). Shape it like a gun, curl back the middle, ring and pinky to the palm, index finger out, thumb perpendicular (index finger = barrel, thumb = hammer)

Now turn it palm down, you should be looking at the back of your hand. The back of your hand represents the router, your palm is the base plate, that is to say it is the part that would be touching the wood. With your palm down, this is a hand-held router. If you do it palm up it would be a table mounted router.

Your thumb points at the work piece edge and your index finger points in the feed direction. 

Always works.

If you don't have a right-hand to do this with, I guess you will need to learn a different trick.


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## kolias (Dec 26, 2008)

Good answers, helps to understand better

Rob, I kind of mixed-up my fingers for a moment LOL but it's a good way to remember.

Thank you


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Rob, I was going to take a shot of the right hand rule, because I couldn't find the one that senior moderator Mike posted a while back, however I couldn't hold the camera in my left hand. For beginners it is very good.


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## CanuckGal (Nov 26, 2008)

Excellent mnemonic! Thanks!


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## xplorx4 (Dec 1, 2008)

I like that right hand rule, I have wondered my self some time that makes it easy!!! or is that *easier*.


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## Capt Splinter (Dec 30, 2008)

Rob,
I'm a visual kind of person, and that "Right Hand Rule" is great. I know for at least the near future, you'll see me out in my shop with my hand out, pointing to my workpiece just before I cut.
Thanks again


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## woodnthings (Jan 30, 2009)

Hey guys I'm all thumbs so the right hand rule left me pointing and firing, rather than routing. Here's the way I think about it: the cutter is like a bunch of sharp fingers trying to trap the workpiece and push it in towards the fence on a table router and because the cutter rotates CCW so you want the workpiece being pushed into the fence, not out or away from it.So feed from to right to left.

< CCW cutter rotation
-------------- # ------------------------ fence
>
mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm <-----==== work 

With a hand held the cutter is rotating CW, pulling itself into the work piece. Use this diagram: (dots are invisible) this software doesn't recognize empty space so....dots, m= wood to be routed or a pattern, table top etc. Also it puts everything flush left..snap!

mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
m...............................m 
m...............................m hand held
m.....router=====-->.....m 
mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm 
> CW cutter rotation
#
<
<------=====Router
On a table the work goes from right to left, with a hand held, the router goes from right to left except on an inside rout.

Sorry, that's the best I can do...not a computer geek...yet! Bill


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## Bob N (Oct 12, 2004)

Great thread guys and very helpful to me at least


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## Bøb (Aug 12, 2006)

Very simple to remember .. . ROUTERS ALWAYS WANT TO GO LEFT !!

If you push a running router into a piece of material, it will pull to the left .. simply take advantage of this fact.


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## rwyoung (Aug 3, 2008)

Harry -

Should we now explain the right hand rule as applies to electro-magnetics?  

(Or as we used to call it in school, "electro-magics"...)


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

The right hand rule applies to generators and the left to motors to predict the direction of rotation when the direction of current flow and magnetic field are known, and my memory tells me it was Mr. Fleming who came up with it, I seem to remember that there is another method known as the grip rule but it's all too long ago.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

<<<__Bøb__>>> said:


> Very simple to remember .. . ROUTERS ALWAYS WANT TO GO LEFT !!
> 
> If you push a running router into a piece of material, it will pull to the left .. simply take advantage of this fact.


This would seem to indicate that there is no difference routing the outside of a circle and routing the inside of a circle. Perhaps a little more explanation is required for this old man.


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## derek willis (Jan 21, 2009)

It's strange, you know, I looked at the first post and had to think how to do it, I've been doing it for more than 20 years and it is all automatic, frankly, I could not have answered the post straight away,
I can assure you I am not new to routing in any manner at all.
I shall have to read up on what you have all said and try to remember.
Derek


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## rwyoung (Aug 3, 2008)

harrysin said:


> The right hand rule applies to generators and the left to motors to predict the direction of rotation when the direction of current flow and magnetic field are known, and my memory tells me it was Mr. Fleming who came up with it, I seem to remember that there is another method known as the grip rule but it's all too long ago.


http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/magnetic/magfor.html

is a good on-line reference.

Harry, I think you may have spent too much time watching the water spiral out the wrong direction down there... 

RHR for current in a wire, point thumb in direction of conventional current flow (yes, DC, if it is AC, then you will need to be flipping your wrist, lets not go there). As your fingers curl around the conductor, that is the direction the magnetic fields are generated. 

Likewise, if you want to find the force direction for a charge moving perpendicularly though a magnetic field, then shape your right hand like a gun but also point your middle finger perpendicular to your palm (I'll let you work out which side of the palm for yourself...). Now if you orient your index finger in the direction the particle is moving and your thumb parallel to the magnetic field, your middle finger will be pointing in the direction of the effective force. Don't really use that one much. 

Another one I use once in a while is for figuring the force direction associated with rotation. Again, right hand, point your fingers in the direction of rotation as if you were going to wrap your hand around the rotating object (say for instance a car tire). Now your thumb will point in the direction of the tangential force. Classic Freshman physics demonstration is having somebody sit on a piano stool and hold a bicycle wheel on a short axis. Give the wheel a spin and if they hold it out in front, it will start to make them rotate ("precession" is the right word?) on the stool.

Seriously, it's all just a mater of finding the mnemnonic that works for you. There are LHR versions of most of the RHR tricks. In my case I tried to learn only the RHR versions otherwise I would have been too confused trying to keep track of which hand was for which! I have enough other things to keep straight without waving my hands about like a spastic spider monkey! 

Having a nice summer down there?


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Here is the artwork Harry mentioned. It is handy to print out and keep by your table.


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## woodnthings (Jan 30, 2009)

Hey Guys, and especially beginners,
Give this a try, (I just safely did this myself, but do so at your own risk!)
Securely! clamp a 1"x3" wide board about 24" long to the edge of your bench parallel to the edge and 3" face side up. Get out your router with a bottom bearing and a roundover bit say 1/2" radius. With the router between you and the closest edge of the board,(near side) rout a 6" long pass from the right end of the board moving from right to left. Then from from the left end of the board rout a 6" pass from left to right. Notice the difference...it may be slight. In a straight, parallel grain board in my case, with an 18.5lb. PC 518 router there was very little difference. But that's a "monster router"!
Now put the router on the (far side) of the board, to simulate an "inside cut" and try routing the edge from left to right and then right to left.  It's good to know what to expect in either case, because a condition will come up when you may need to do one or all 4 methods.


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## Cassandra (Mar 15, 2006)

Hi Guys:

One technique I haven't seen listed above (maybe I missed it) is to use a permanent marker and put the correct direction on the router base. *For freehand routing,* when looking down on the router, *the router should be going "clockwise"* with respect to the side of the bit that is in contact with the workpiece. 

For example, if one is routing a workpiece that is on the other side of the router from oneself, *the router moves "clockwise"*, which would be left--to-right. If one is routing a workpiece that closer to oneself than the router bit, then "clockwise" would be right-to-left. 

*For table routing,* *the workpiece moves "clockwise"* around the bit. If the workpiece is on the closer side of the bit, it moves right-to-left, which would be "clockwise" relative to the bit. If the workpiece is on the far side of the bit, then "clockwise" would be left-to-right.

HTH,
Cassandra


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

The easy way to remember the left from the right rule is to think of the British MG sports car, M is on the left (motors) G is on the right (generators).

When routing on the table, do NOT attempt to move the wood from left to right, it is likely to be thrown across the shop at high speed and push your fingers into the cutter, YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED..................


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

harrysin said:


> The easy way to remember the left from the right rule is to think of the British MG sports car, M is on the left (motors) G is on the right (generators).
> 
> When routing on the table, do NOT attempt to move the wood from left to right, it is likely to be thrown across the shop at high speed and push your fingers into the cutter, YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED..................


And if you are widening a groove with a table mounted router, so the bit is not rotating within a fence, be sure the side of the groove you are widening is on the left or front. My left forefinger is still stiff about 16 months after one thoughtless instant the led to the local ER when the cut was on the right.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

A very important point Tom that can't be over stressed.


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## rwyoung (Aug 3, 2008)

harrysin said:


> The easy way to remember the left from the right rule is to think of the British MG sports car, M is on the left (motors) G is on the right (generators).........


Ha! That's a good one! Unfortunately, having grown up in the colonies surrounded by wheat fields, nevery really saw any MGs.  Maybe I can figure something out using John Deere or IH...


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## Ralph Barker (Dec 15, 2008)

rwyoung said:


> Ha! That's a good one! Unfortunately, having grown up in the colonies surrounded by wheat fields, nevery really saw any MGs.  *Maybe I can figure something out using John Deere or IH*...


Never rout such that your fingers will be sucked into the combine.


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## kolias (Dec 26, 2008)

mftha said:


> And if you are widening a groove with a table mounted router, so the bit is not rotating within a fence, be sure the side of the groove you are widening is on the left or front. My left forefinger is still stiff about 16 months after one thoughtless instant the led to the local ER when the cut was on the right.


I have read this rule in a router book I have but again can’t understand the reason behind. My book (Woodworking with the Router) says to widen a groove you push the fence away and NOT the stock.

But to start a groove you have to run the stock thru the bit to create the first pass and In this case you trap the bit between the stock and the fence. Why this is okay?


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

HI Guys

I know I'm going to catch hell for this but the CLIMB cut works very well when you are milling/routing veneer plywood,,and some other woods, it packs the chips in the slot to keep the veneer from ripping BUT you should not go more than a 1/4" deep on each pass...to be use by the *advance* user only... 

A climb cut is just backwards from the way you should push the stock by the bit on the router table and it works very well with a plunge router also... but you must hold on to the stock at all times on the router table 

=======


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Far from giving you hell Bj, I agree with you but it's only for the more advanced routologist and not for small pieces which can't be gripped securely. When routing around a corner from straight grain to cross grain, going backwards will prevent breakout, but I must stress again that the piece must be gripped firmly.
To get back on my soap box, plunge routing especially using female templates does not present these safety problems and this is one reason why most of my routing is done this way and only minor operations on the table.


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## Handidad (Dec 31, 2008)

Finally the "backwards around the corner" was mentioned. Because I use a router only occassionaly, I usually forget this and have tear out.


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## Gerard_sr (Dec 7, 2008)

*"Bump-Cutting" VIDEO*



woodnthings said:


> Hey Guys, and especially beginners,
> Give this a try, (I just safely did this myself, but do so at your own risk!)
> Securely! clamp a 1"x3" wide board about 24" long to the edge of your bench parallel to the edge and 3" face side up. Get out your router with a bottom bearing and a roundover bit say 1/2" radius. With the router between you and the closest edge of the board,(near side) rout a 6" long pass from the right end of the board moving from right to left. Then from from the left end of the board rout a 6" pass from left to right. Notice the difference...it may be slight. In a straight, parallel grain board in my case, with an 18.5lb. PC 518 router there was very little difference. But that's a "monster router"!
> Now put the router on the (far side) of the board, to simulate an "inside cut" and try routing the edge from left to right and then right to left.  It's good to know what to expect in either case, because a condition will come up when you may need to do one or all 4 methods.


Bill, (woodnthings) and I were discussing this off-line and he brought up the subject of "Bump-Cutting", he was looking for a video he saw somewhere on the subject. Well I found the video and I find it interesting! It seems to be done by someone that's an "Old Hat" to woodworking, like many of you guys in here, so I thought I would do two things here;
Let you guys know about it and attempt that new-fangled embed a video thingie.

Enjoy and learn!
Cordially,
Gerry


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Very Good Gerry

Just to add a note to your post 

If you watch Bob and Rick R. of the ( RWS) on the DVD'S or the PBS or the The Woodworking Channel , you will see them use the router the same way  just one of the great tips from the pro's..

===



Gerard_sr said:


> Bill, (woodnthings) and I were discussing this off-line and he brought up the subject of "Bump-Cutting", he was looking for a video he saw somewhere on the subject. Well I found the video and I find it interesting! It seems to be done by someone that's an "Old Hat" to woodworking, like many of you guys in here, so I thought I would do two things here;
> Let you guys know about it and attempt that new-fangled embed a video thingie.
> 
> Enjoy and learn!
> ...


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## Electron (May 22, 2008)

Gerry, in spite of the very many years that I've been using routers hand held, I've never thought of or come across that very sensible method, thanks for the video.


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## woodnthings (Jan 30, 2009)

*Bump Cutting and Climb cutting*

Gerry, you rascal, you found it! Hooray! You must have stayed up all night lookin for that. Thanks so much. I knew I had seen it somewhere before, just not in my short term memory or "My Favorite" either one. Drives me Nuts...well, just adds more to my current state of craziness! Bill


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

HI Bill

Here's little tip to help find things on the forum,,,open the Gallery for that poster ( Gerry ) look for the item you want, then just click on the item..it will pop up what you are looking for..

see a snapshot of Gerry gallery below 

======



woodnthings said:


> Gerry, you rascal, you found it! Hooray! You must have stayed up all night lookin for that. Thanks so much. I knew I had seen it somewhere before, just not in my short term memory or "My Favorite" either one. Drives me Nuts...well, just adds more to my current state of craziness! Bill


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

kolias said:


> I have read this rule in a router book I have but again can’t understand the reason behind. My book (Woodworking with the Router) says to widen a groove you push the fence away and NOT the stock.
> 
> But to start a groove you have to run the stock thru the bit to create the first pass and In this case you trap the bit between the stock and the fence. Why this is okay?


It seems to me that when making a groove or dado the first cut has equal force on both sides of the groove or dado but in oposite directions, so they cancel each other out. Widening the grooove or dado applies force to only one side. If that force is on the right or back, the force applied by the router bit is the same as the direction of feed, so if the piece is not held very securely it will shoot to the left or back (what happened to me)

Certainly if held securely, climb cutting does give very good results, but as Harry said, the piece must be well secured. The manual that came with my first router, a Skil that tried to compete with several space agencies (launching things (in this case router bits) into orbit), described climb cutting and extolled its superior results. The manual only said that if not done correctly it could be dangerous.

Does this "explanation" make sense?

The "bump cutting" video shows something new to me; I do not recall Bob and Rick showing it on the Router Workshop, but I have not seen every episode. If bump cutting is new to electron, then is must not be very widely known. Gerry, great thanks for posting it, and Bill, great thanks for putting Gerry on the treack. Bump cutting is a technique I intend to master


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## Gerard_sr (Dec 7, 2008)

Guys,
(blushing)
I didn't make the video, give credit to the person that made it, I'm only the one who dug it up and posted it.
Personally I've yet to try it myself!

Like I once said in here; 

*This community is the sum of of the knowledge of all.
Only we must communicate that knowledge to each other via this forum.
Participate, teach and learn.*

In this case, it was Bill's knowledge that a video existed, my (little) knowledge of how to find it.

Cordially,
Gerry


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi mftha

"bump cutting"
"I do not recall Bob and Rick showing it on the Router Workshop, "

You will see Bob and Rick showing how to do it in # 101 and why it's done. 
We all know that Bob and Rick like to use Cedar in many of his projects, and Cedar likes to rip out very easy.

101 - Heart Frame: Episode, with the Red Router  1996/98 I think..
http://www.routerworkshop.com/S100.html

I will say many like to use this for sign making,, for putting on a diff.type edge on the sign with a big round over bit the norm.  "bump and run edge"



======





mftha said:


> It seems to me that wneh making a groove the first cut has equal force on both sides of the groove bur in oposite directions, so they cancel each other out. Widening the grooove applies force to only one side. If that force is on the right or back, the force applied by the router bit is the same as the direction of feed, so if the piece is not held very securely it will shoot to the left or back (what happened to me)
> 
> Certainly if held securely, climb cutting does very good results, but as Harry said, the piece must be well secured. The manual that came with my first router, a Skil that lost its ability to hold bits, described climb cutting and extolled its superior results. The manual only said that if not done correctly it could be dangerous.
> 
> ...


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Bob and Rick call this method "Scoring" and teach it early in the Router Workshop series. This is the method used for areas of problem grain.


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## kolias (Dec 26, 2008)

Very interesting


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## Electron (May 22, 2008)

Gerard_sr said:


> Guys,
> (blushing)
> I didn't make the video, give credit to the person that made it, I'm only the one who dug it up and posted it.
> Personally I've yet to try it myself!
> ...


Gerry, who invented the method is not as important as the one who brings it to the masses. I have widely promoted ski and female template routing but have never claimed to be the inventor. In a similar way I have been promoting the metric system as applicable to template guides and cutters but you all know that I'm not the inventor!

Harry


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

Gerard_sr said:


> Guys,
> 
> Like I once said in here;
> 
> ...


What an eloquent statement of the purpose of this forum!

Should we adopt it as the forum motto?


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

bobj3 said:


> Hi mftha
> 
> "bump cutting"
> "I do not recall Bob and Rick showing it on the Router Workshop, "
> ...


Great thanks Bob. I did not see that episode, but I either have or will soon have the DVD with that episode.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

HI mftha

Your welcome 

Out of all the DVD'S Oak Park has out this is the one I recommend to someone that wants to know how use the router ...it's that great...it's not a true 101 shop for routers but more like a 102 shop for routers..plus if you think out side of the box you will see a great way to make a circle jig plus so much more... inlays,pattern making,box making the neat way,etc. all on one disk..

======





mftha said:


> Great thanks Bob. I did not see that episode, but I either have or will soon have the DVD with that episode.


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

bobj3 said:


> HI mftha
> 
> Your welcome
> 
> ...


My house recently went through a major rearrangement (it seems there is someone living here who wants my woodworking interests hidden from vistors, so I do not know where many things are right now. This person comes from a culture where hand work is something for the "little people". I lived in that country for 16 months, was happy to leave, but I have inlaws and cousins in law there whom I like very much). I cannot do active woodworking until it warms up anyway, so I do have time. 


You can call me Tom
"and if you'll be my bodyguard
I'll be your long lost friend"

Actually we are friends, much to my pleasure and honor


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## Woodnut65 (Oct 11, 2004)

If you cut a groove in a board , like a dato both sides of the bit is moving wood.
The second cut to widen that groove must be to the front of the table, therefore the fence must be moved to the rear. In that position the bit is cutting in the proper direction when the board is moved from right to left through the cut. The back end of the bit is not cutting anything on the second pass. And you could keep moving the fence back for subsequent cuts to widen the groove or dato and still be cutting in the proper direction... Hope this clears the problem up. Woodnut65


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

Woodnut65 said:


> If you cut a groove in a board , like a dato both sides of the bit is moving wood.
> The second cut to widen that groove must be to the front of the table, therefore the fence must be moved to the rear. In that position the bit is cutting in the proper direction when the board is moved from right to left through the cut. The back end of the bit is not cutting anything on the second pass. And you could keep moving the fence back for subsequent cuts to widen the groove or dato and still be cutting in the proper direction... Hope this clears the problem up. Woodnut65


Not to be obnoxous, but how does your post differ from my post #35 in this same thread, other than being much more succinct? Am I correct that we have the same conclusion?


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## Electron (May 22, 2008)

May I be the referee and say yes, you both said the same thing in slightly different words.

Harry


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

Electron said:


> May I be the referee and say yes, you both said the same thing in slightly different words.
> 
> Harry


Thanks Harry. I was hoping that no referee would be needed, but now that there is one, from my perspective there is now no hint of a dispute. Between Woodnut65 and me the point is made.


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## Woodnut65 (Oct 11, 2004)

MFTHA: I don't bother to read all of the opinions expressed on a given subject.
Upon re-examination, the conclusions are the same. However I answer questions that are asked and input my opinion. You seem to be saying that if you answer a question,
no one else is free to give an opinion, no matter what the conclusion. If that is the case you can answer them and I won't. Woodnut65


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

harrysin said:


> The right hand rule applies to generators and the left to motors to predict the direction of rotation when the direction of current flow and magnetic field are known, and my memory tells me it was Mr. Fleming who came up with it, I seem to remember that there is another method known as the grip rule but it's all too long ago.


I thought the right hand rule was for coils?

Oh, well, screwed up again ;-(

Allthunbs


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

Woodnut65 said:


> MFTHA: I don't bother to read all of the opinions expressed on a given subject.
> Upon re-examination, the conclusions are the same. However I answer questions that are asked and input my opinion. You seem to be saying that if you answer a question,
> no one else is free to give an opinion, no matter what the conclusion. If that is the case you can answer them and I won't. Woodnut65


Richard, the way I said what I said certainly could lead you to the conclusion you stated. I certainly did not mean that if I answer a question no one else should give an opinion. Your answer is given in a more plain-spoken way and as I pointed out more succinct way; your answer is also much less long-winded. Between our two answers, the idea should have been communicated to all. 

Let us not let this discussion get out of hand. When I saw your post I thought maybe my post had missed something, and I was wondering what I had missed. No way, No how, do I ever mean to squelch discussion. From now on if someone duplicates the essence of my post, I will not do what I did to you. If a similar situation arises in the future, I will welcome you response, and I would hope you would accept mine if the order of response were reversed. 

Bottom line, we agree, and now there are two different expressions of what is essentially the same idea.


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## Woodnut65 (Oct 11, 2004)

mftha: Tom I respect everyone's viewpoint. I suspect from what I have seen the members of this forum do also. Many questions posed will have more than one answer
since wood working very often has more than one way to accomplish a task.
Regards.. Woodnut65


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

Woodnut65 said:


> mftha: Tom I respect everyone's viewpoint. I suspect from what I have seen the members of this forum do also. Many questions posed will have more than one answer
> since wood working very often has more than one way to accomplish a task.
> Regards.. Woodnut65


Richard, it is a great relief and joy to me that we are on good terms. I also respect everyone's viewpoint for exaclty the reason you stated, and as you said, there is very often more than one way to accomplish a task.

Back to router use:
Feed direction: It is very mportant to pay attention as nearly everyone in this thread, and in many other threads have said.


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

We all express our thoughts in different ways, just as we all understand in different ways. I have found giving answers to questions clarifies woodworking concepts in my own mind. I am sure others do as well. The more members who participate... the better the odds of everyone understanding.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Mike said:


> We all express our thoughts in different ways, just as we all understand in different ways. I have found giving answers to questions clarifies woodworking concepts in my own mind. I am sure others do as well. The more members who participate... the better the odds of everyone understanding.


RIGHT ON! It may not be spoken but this rule is what sets this forum apart from all others.

Allthunbs


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## Ralph Barker (Dec 15, 2008)

Mike said:


> We all express our thoughts in different ways, just as we all understand in different ways. I have found giving answers to questions clarifies woodworking concepts in my own mind. I am sure others do as well. The more members who participate... the better the odds of everyone understanding.


I don't understand.

(just kidding)


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## levon (Sep 14, 2008)

when cutting circles, what direction would you use?


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Outside of the circle anti-clockwise, inside of the circle clockwise. Routing a circle with a circle cutting jig it doesn't matter, which ever is most comfortable to you.


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## curiousgeorge (Nov 6, 2006)

levon said:


> when cutting circles, what direction would you use?


Oh, Oh, I know... Oval?


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Guys

Complicated? ? ? ? I don't get it,,,,,Complicated ? ? ?.

Pull a round over bit out and set it on the table on it's end, so the bit is up, this is what it would look like in the router table, look at the cutting edge on the bit, note how the blades are ground, now pickup the bit and flip it over like it would be in a hand/plunge router note the blades and the grind on them, this tells you how to use the bit,,once you know how your router spins you will have it down..

Complicated No

==


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## derek willis (Jan 21, 2009)

This series of posts has to be the biggest load of ******** i've ever read, if it's in a table push it, if it's freehand, pull it!!! what more do you want to know.!!!
And as for circle cutting, you pull. push, push, pull, or if you can rotate your circle, then you pull, pull, pull!!!.

This will start them off!!!


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## AxlMyk (Jun 13, 2006)

derek willis said:


> This series of posts has to be the biggest load of ******** i've ever read, if it's in a table push it, if it's freehand, pull it!!! what more do you want to know.!!!
> And as for circle cutting, you pull. push, push, pull, or if you can rotate your circle, then you pull, pull, pull!!!.
> 
> This will start them off!!!


I like your attitude.


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## levon (Sep 14, 2008)

what more do you want to know? i want to know there are more people here like bobj and Harry that try to help people and less people that dont know how to help newcomers at all!


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## curiousgeorge (Nov 6, 2006)

levon said:


> what more do you want to know? i want to know there are more people here like bobj and Harry that try to help people and less people that dont know how to help newcomers at all!


Whoa up a bit here, Levon. Every body is entitled to their opinion but not to the expense of someone Else's. Just because you don't agree with someone's style, or presentation, doesn't mean you have a right to dis them for it. Please try to keep it civil. Thank you.


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## kolias (Dec 26, 2008)

Very sorry that you feel like that Derek, I guess you were born knowing everything and never had to ask for anything, Lucky you………

However some people are not like you and they have to ask questions to learn, and some people are kind enough they like to SHARE their experience with others

Nicolas


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## levon (Sep 14, 2008)

very good post Nicolas! ditto! 

George, i didnt dis him. i just said that i liked having people that tried to help people that were newcomers. if he is really trying to help people then that is great. i like people that try to help people rather than just trying to make themselves look good. i didnt mention??? whoever you thought i mentioned. i think you are way off base. but we all can be wrong.
if you thought i did you need to reread the posts.


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## levon (Sep 14, 2008)

levon said:


> what more do you want to know? i want to know there are more people here like bobj and Harry that try to help people and less people that dont know how to help newcomers at all!


what is wrong with this post?


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## Bob N (Oct 12, 2004)

Hey guys,

Calm down, some folks just have a different way of communicating what they teach like Mike tried to convey a few posts back. Let's look for what they are teaching instead of how they are teaching it. I think if you will stop and look, you will see the end results all have the same good intentions.


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## levon (Sep 14, 2008)

dear fellow members of the forum,

in as much as i always think im right, i realize im far from perfect, lol

we should be really thankful we have someone as impartial and fair as Bob to keep us in line. he may not always be right, but he is always Bob. the last sentence is just teasing. i respect Bob and as a loudmouth ,i couldnt ever see anyone being upset with him. if he asks i will admit i am wrong! i think we have a forum to be proud of and a team that is very fair from Mark to Mike to Bob and our contibutors and to each and everyone of us that enjoys this forum.


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## Ghidrah (Oct 21, 2008)

I can see where Derek is coming from, however, its easy to take years of experience in a particular field for granted. What is obvious to an auto mechanic may not be so to a landscaper. 

That said, even a novice looking at a bit regardless of its orientation should be able to figure out what part of it cuts and which direction the sharp part will cut from. 

Simply grabbing the shank with one hand, gently enclosing the cutting end in the other hand and spinning it one way and then the other will tell you what direction cuts and what doesn't.

What a novice sees is a bit digging into the wood regardless of what the feed direction is. What he/she will learn shortly, (hopefully without damage) is one direction pulls the stock and will almost assuredly cause calamity and one way pushes against the stock and for the most part is considerably more stable.

Lastly there's only so many ways to explain the processes of said event before it becomes tedious repetition


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## levon (Sep 14, 2008)

hi Ronald,

i agree with you to a certain extent. but like Harry told me so eloquently, if a thread is bothering you each of us can switch to another thread. this at first didnt set well with me. but as i see more and more , i find myself agreeing. rather than critize a thread, i can always move to another. i hope you take no offense from this as i did. it is not meant to offend anyone. just a thought.


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

I was going to weigh in on how this thread was developing, but it now seems to be self-correcting. The number views of this thread shows that the direction of feed is an issue of great interest, and about which there is uncertaintly. As I noted earlier, the manual that comes with some routers clearly not intended for heavy duty use (for example my first router which has a permanently attached collet that accepts only 1/4 in shaft bits) extols the virtues of climb cutting without providing sufficient explanation of the dangers and how to do it safely. 

One of the great virtues of this forum is the great diversity of experience in woodworking and in other aspects of life, and the way in which almost always everyone is treated with respect and questions and responses are almost always taken seriously.

In my day job I am involved in the search for a person to fill a critical position. Friday (yesterday) we were conducting telephone interviews with our top candidates. One, whom I thought to be the best, asked questions of the interviewers. Many interviewers responded by laughing at the questions, which were serious, insightful and showed genuine concern for important issues. This candidate withdrew.


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## levon (Sep 14, 2008)

hi Tom,

thanks for your post. i thought it was well thought out and stated. you made a really good point. 
you know im sure any beginner could as bobj said in his post , figure out which way the bit cuts and can easily tell by turning on the router without a bit in it , what the rotation is. 
but i think lots of beginners are so excited to try out their new toys, that they dont stop to figure it all out. i know im guilty at times. 
anything we can do or say that may keep someone from getting hurt is well worth it, i think.
sorry for the rambling fellow members.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

mftha said:


> In my day job ... This candidate withdrew.


Hi Tom:

The unfortunate part is that those doing the laughing didn't understand why the questions were important and no amount of explaining would have enlightened them. Ah 'tis difficult to soar like an eagle when one spends all day herding turkeys!

Allthunbs


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

Hi levon, Allthumbs:

Thanks very much for your kind words and support. You have both made very important points. levon, I agree absolutely completely without rservation that anything we say or do that may keep someone from getting hurt is well worth it. I did not find your post at all rambling, especially if you were to compare your post to some of mine!

Allthumbs, you are absolutely right. Those laughing should have known better.


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## Ghidrah (Oct 21, 2008)

Levon,
I'm in no way upset by the thread, its length or the explanations given in an effort to quantify a process by literal and or perspective means. 

IMO, many active threads means a busy site and that attracts new members by being so. This in turn adds perspectives and insights, creating a "Router Forums" Gestalt eh!

(Note)
While writing this after re-reading all 8 pages and 75 posts the question was answered decently in 9 of them and within the 1st 3 pages. The rest was mostly drifty friendly banter and a smidge of pissyness. Threads should drift leading from one thing to another as long as they tie together

I understand Derek's position, which I'm assuming is, (This is truly a simple concept, how come so much ado?). 
Also, you know there's tonza members here that help newcomers and existing members with projects.

I'm good
good day eh!


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## derek willis (Jan 21, 2009)

My whole point is that after 75 posts surely it's covered, it was in the first three anyhow, and Colias, I had to learn, albeit 25 years ago.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Some people grasp ideas quicker than others and in spite of my age and poor memory for many things, I do tend to remember when I learned things that interested me, that being so I try to put myself in the position of newcomers and show patience and understanding, and where practical, photograph an example or demonstration. I must once again remind members that there is an OFF button, no thread is forced upon them.


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## levon (Sep 14, 2008)

hello Harry,

it took awhile for it to sink in but i do agree with you about the off button  see Harry , patience on your part has got me coming around to your way of thinking. but wasnt it fun getting there,lol. i think Bob holds his breath til he finishes reading my posts, thinking what is he gonna say now, lol Bob is a great guy . btw, your ok for an out of towner, lol!
have a great day!


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Thanks Levon for what I'm sure are compliments.


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## levon (Sep 14, 2008)

they are compliments ,Harry.


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## thatguy1963 (Mar 1, 2009)

That is great info for a newbie, because I will be doing a lot of hand-held routing. Thanks again!!!


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## Hamlin (Dec 25, 2005)

Hi,

Since the OP is dated back on 02/05/2009. Here's a reminder from the RWS site. http://www.routerworkshop.com/direction.html


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## rstermer (Apr 22, 2008)

rwyoung said:


> Harry will appreciate this one...
> 
> "Right Hand Rule". No, not the one for E-field and Magnetic field and current flow...
> 
> ...


Hi RW Young-Thanks for posting that very useful rule. If working on the router table does it become the "left hand rule?' Also, if routing a groove or dado, does it make any difference which direction one moves the router, seems to me there's no difference in how the cutter attacks the wood. Thanks for your help.
rstermer


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## Rutabagared (Jun 18, 2009)

My high school shop teacher taught us a simple phrase that I've remembered all these years - "feed as you read." You can always visualize where you are at in relation to the router - standing inside the work when routing inside curves, lying on your back if table routing, etc.

Joe


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## dawziecat (Dec 8, 2009)

Many thanks to all for this thread.
I have dickered about with a router for 35 years but am totally inexperienced for all that. Everything I touched with it turned to trash except for using a hinge template. I got to be very good at that one particular task. :yes4:

All these years I did not appreciate the importance of understanding the 
way the bit rotates. Strange, as I would never rip with my radial arm saw
pulling me into the blade!:fie:

The RHR and "Feed as you read."

Invaluable information for me! I am still mulling over CW inside and CCW outside a template.

Never underestimate how little some of us reading here know. Especially me.


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## Cassandra (Mar 15, 2006)

Hi Terry:

I used to rely on the cumbersome CW inside and CCW outside rule, but now rely on the simpler RHR.

Cassandra


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## Dawid (Dec 15, 2009)

Right hand rule - Brilliant. Thanks


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## Kral (Sep 30, 2009)

The rules I follow are: Keep the stock on the left of the router for "normal" routing. You don't have to remember separate rules for inside and outside routing. For a "climb cut" keep the stock on the right of the router. For a climb cut make a very light pass. Never make a climb cut with a router table.


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## jmg1017 (Apr 9, 2009)

Thought I'd add my .02 cents if for no other reason than it tweaks some folks.
My method doesn't involve any rules or thumbs, nor do you have to turn the router upside down or know what phase the moon is in. Simply move the router slowly into the work and when you feel the router wanting to move in one direction move it in the other direction. 

I agree with Derek, pretty funny how we got 88 some odd posts so far. Not surprising though as we had one member post 8 times and he never addressed the original question.


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## Gene45 (Sep 6, 2009)

jmg1017 said:


> Simply move the router slowly into the work and when you feel the router wanting to move in one direction move it in the other direction.


This is good advice except when the wood tends to splinter and chip, It also lets you, potentially, make a clean cut in one pass. It assures that you don't make a climb cut. 

However, if the wood tends to splinter, let the router move the way it wants to, but make light cuts, no chipping or splintering but don't let it run away with you. 

And I have never tried a climb cut on a router table.


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## paulski (Aug 20, 2009)

Paul here, yes it does matter what direction the bit spins cutting the wood , handheld feed left to right, table mounted feed right to left.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Router Workshop: Direction Of Feed

=======


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## Dr.Zook (Sep 10, 2004)

Welcome to the RouterForums Dawid and Jon. Glad you found us and joined.


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## jschaben (Jun 21, 2009)

rstermer said:


> Hi RW Young-Thanks for posting that very useful rule. If working on the router table does it become the "left hand rule?' Also, if routing a groove or dado, does it make any difference which direction one moves the router, seems to me there's no difference in how the cutter attacks the wood. Thanks for your help.
> rstermer


Oh yes, table always needs to be feed right to left, especially when doing slots or dados. If widening a slot or dado, make sure you are cutting the edge AWAY from the fence.


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## rwyoung (Aug 3, 2008)

rstermer said:


> Hi RW Young-Thanks for posting that very useful rule. If working on the router table does it become the "left hand rule?' Also, if routing a groove or dado, does it make any difference which direction one moves the router, seems to me there's no difference in how the cutter attacks the wood. Thanks for your help.
> rstermer


Nope, still the right hand as I described it.

As to dados, if the dado is to be the same width as the bit, the feed direction is a function of which side you plane to fence the router. If the dado is to be cut in multiple passes (ie wider than the bit), don't trap wood between the fence and the bit.


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## hankus (Jun 17, 2010)

Thanks for the right hand rule.
Being a visual person it makes it very clear, and it should save a bit of confusion in the future.

Hankus


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