# Splines for chest corners



## billyjim (Feb 11, 2012)

I am building a chest using panel and groove construction. The corners pieces are 
3 1/2 x 33 and are mitered. I was going to use dovetail splines to strengthen the joint putting 2 splines at the top, in the middle and at the bottom. Any thoughts or suggestions?

Bill


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

billyjim said:


> I am building a chest using panel and groove construction. The corners pieces are
> 3 1/2 x 33 and are mitered. I was going to use dovetail splines to strengthen the joint putting 2 splines at the top, in the middle and at the bottom. Any thoughts or suggestions?
> 
> Bill


Have you considered miter lock joints?


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Sounds good to me Bill and they should look really good. Splines or biscuits running vertically will also help strengthen it too.


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## billyjim (Feb 11, 2012)

Jerry Bowen said:


> Have you considered miter lock joints?


Jerry I did think about it but I like the looks of the dovetails splines. I just wasn't sure if what I was planning on would be enough since it is about 33" tall. How has your experience been with the lock miter? 
Bill


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

billyjim said:


> Jerry I did think about it but I like the looks of the dovetails splines. I just wasn't sure if what I was planning on would be enough since it is about 33" tall. How has your experience been with the lock miter?
> Bill


Bill,
The recent chest and the only chest that I have build was made with each of the four courners made of two pieces of material three inches wide and put together with with miter lock cuts forming a very strong a perfectly squard corner. I used dowels to attach the parts for the rails or call it the frame to the edges of these corners. I worked very well for me.

I am not visualizing what you are calling a dovetail spline, sounds good, I wonder if you can enlighten me so that I can understand what you are describing.

I must say that I am a bit intrigued with the miter lock joint but am sure open to learn a out other approaches to what we both are focused on.

Jerry


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## billyjim (Feb 11, 2012)

Jerry Here is a pic of a dovetail spline. I think they look good but I was concerned with whether my plan would provide enough strength to the joint. I am debating getting a lock miter cutter so was curious how it worked for you.

https://www.google.com/search?q=dov...niv&sa=X&ei=bjQeVIj8M4a1yASXzoIw&ved=0CCYQsAQ


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

If you are really concerned about the joint being strong enough then run a spline down the length of the joint. It's easy to do on a table saw. Set the blade to 45* and run the miter against the fence with the point on the upper side. That keeps it from going under the fence. Of course the issue with that method is that the points won't be flush if there is a thickness difference. You may have to add a sacrificial face onto your fence. It will only take a few minutes to do this and you can still add the dovetail splines which look sharp.


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> If you are really concerned about the joint being strong enough then run a spline down the length of the joint./QUOTE]
> 
> That would work, but I like just the splines better. Or you could put a glue block on the inside.


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## Willway (Aug 16, 2012)

Bill if I were you I would make the lock miter corners first, then cut the dovetail splines in a V shaped jig on the table. Strong, beautiful and easy!!

Dick


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

billyjim said:


> Jerry Here is a pic of a dovetail spline. I think they look good but I was concerned with whether my plan would provide enough strength to the joint. I am debating getting a lock miter cutter so was curious how it worked for you.
> 
> https://www.google.com/search?q=dov...niv&sa=X&ei=bjQeVIj8M4a1yASXzoIw&ved=0CCYQsAQ


O.K., I understand dovetails, but I have on cut them in the direction of the grain, I'm wondering about how you would use them for a corner that is 33" inches and where you would cut them cross grain. I guess I'm still in the dark and/or have a mental block which is not uncommon for me.

Jerry


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

Willway said:


> Bill if I were you I would make the lock miter corners first, then cut the dovetail splines in a V shaped jig on the table. Strong, beautiful and easy!!
> 
> Dick


Dick, the term "dovetail spline" is what I do not understand, never heard the term until now.

Jerry


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> If you are really concerned about the joint being strong enough then run a spline down the length of the joint. It's easy to do on a table saw. Set the blade to 45* and run the miter against the fence with the point on the upper side. That keeps it from going under the fence. Of course the issue with that method is that the points won't be flush if there is a thickness difference. You may have to add a sacrificial face onto your fence. It will only take a few minutes to do this and you can still add the dovetail splines which look sharp.


Charles,
Wouldn't what you described require a right tilt blade or being able to put the fence on the left side of the blade if the blade were a left tilt blade??

Jerry


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Jerry Bowen said:


> Dick, the term "dovetail spline" is what I do not understand, never heard the term until now.
> 
> Jerry


How to make spline dovetail joints - Construction techniques

How to Make Spline Dovetail Joints: 20 Steps (with Pictures)


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## billyjim (Feb 11, 2012)

Thanks for the suggestions fellows. The corner pieces are already mitered so the lock miter is out. I am partial to the dovetail splines because the corners are a long run and look kind of plain and this would produce a good looking result. Still considering the vertical splines and I will probably incorporate glue blocks into a ledge I am putting in to support a tray.


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## billyjim (Feb 11, 2012)

Jerry Bowen said:


> O.K., I understand dovetails, but I have on cut them in the direction of the grain, I'm wondering about how you would use them for a corner that is 33" inches and where you would cut them cross grain. I guess I'm still in the dark and/or have a mental block which is not uncommon for me.
> 
> Jerry


Jerry My plan is to cut two splines near the top of the corner pieces, two more in the middle and two near the bottom so there would be 6 splines total on each corner. I will glue the corner pieces together and then use the a jig to cut the splines into the corners. I can use the same cutter to cut the key. An alternative would be to just use a V jig and make straight cuts on the TS...probably easier that way. 
Did this help?
Bill


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## billyjim (Feb 11, 2012)

Stick486 said:


> How to make spline dovetail joints - Construction techniques
> 
> How to Make Spline Dovetail Joints: 20 Steps (with Pictures)


Thanks Stick. I wasn't doing a very good job of explaining myself.
Bill


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

billyjim said:


> Thanks Stick. I wasn't doing a very good job of explaining myself.
> Bill


yur welcome...

the vertical spline, will it be blind, shown and/or in combination with the dovetails???


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## billyjim (Feb 11, 2012)

Stick486 said:


> yur welcome...
> 
> the vertical spline, will it be blind, shown and/or in combination with the dovetails???


If I use a vertical it will be blind. I would probably put the vertical in first and then the dovetails.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

billyjim said:


> If I use a vertical it will be blind. I would probably put the vertical in first and then the dovetails.


that would be the way...
biscuits would be a lot simpler and easier to do...
a seen thin vertical inlay(s) would be total class...
consider an inlay on the outside corner of the leg...


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## billyjim (Feb 11, 2012)

Stick486 said:


> that would be the way...
> biscuits would be a lot simpler and easier to do...
> a seen thin vertical inlay(s) would be total class...
> consider an inlay on the outside corner of the leg...


Biscuits would definitely be simpler...something to consider but I don't know about the inlay. That would be much harder and in my mind more opportunity to screw it up.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

billyjim said:


> Biscuits would definitely be simpler...something to consider but I don't know about the inlay. That would be much harder and in my mind more opportunity to screw it up.


inlay is not hard...
one or two pieces of practice and you'd be a pro....

the outside edge is nothing more than a filled saw kerf with a contrasting wood...


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## billyjim (Feb 11, 2012)

Stick486 said:


> inlay is not hard...
> one or two pieces of practice and you'd be a pro....
> 
> the outside edge is nothing more than a filled saw kerf with a contrasting wood...


I could see that with the line inlays but once you get into the more intricate patterns I have my doubts. I guess I need to just play with it some time to see how it goes. BTW, at your suggestion I tried a couple of Freud blades and they are awesome. Thanks


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## 64 ford (Apr 21, 2013)

Bill
I built a couple dozen jewelry boxes last year for our girls hockey team and put three dovetail splines in each corner. The boxes were maple and the dovetails were walnut. The contrast looked very nice. I was going to add a vertical spline also but on the prototype it made them look too busy. On a tall box, with only six splines, it would look very nice I think. Probably not over 1/4 inch thought.
Dennis


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Jerry Bowen said:


> Charles,
> Wouldn't what you described require a right tilt blade or being able to put the fence on the left side of the blade if the blade were a left tilt blade??
> 
> Jerry


Let me see if a picture of what was said would help with your question...








Stronger type of locking joint for that orientation there, in a horizontal orientation and how weight is applied, would be a standard lock joint, over dong a miter lock joint. On your first comment, as I said when your built your chest, a locking miter would be good on vertical joints, but by matter of physics, spline joints are stronger holding horizontal planes in that plane. When you use a miter in a large piece, where greater weight is involved and comes into play, then you start getting shear forces where the added weight push against the miter and encourages forces to pull it apart... therefore if a miter is used as being visually appealing effect, the need to reinforce it. 

Miters and locking miters are better "visually" in a vertical joint and strength-wise in a vertical joint. But you usually see that type of joining in small items. Standard locking joints are stronger in horizontal joints. Mitered joining in vertical joints are usually found in higher end furnishing where you are trying to hide the end-grain.

Other comments:
A full spline or full loose spline is stronger in that application(1), than a keyed spline or keyed dovetail. Both will reinforce a miter joint. A spline is visually hidden, where keyed is visually seen. 

A biscuit joint is just a loose spline. (Greater would be tenons or loose tenons) A dovetail interlock the grain/fiber of both pieces of wood, basically, the same way a mortise and tenon joint would, so that would be the (strongest long-term) in most applications... BUT, you don't usually see dovetail joint type of joining (design wise) in the type of piece that the OP is making. When you see dovetails in a large piece, it's visually, in-your-face, showing off strength. Although a strong joint, large furnishings with exposed dovetailing usually fall into 2 classes, either being there to because of a visual effect wanted ... or being there for utility... as strength over fine, high-end visual appeal(2)... Such as in shaker furnishing. But even in Shaker versions of the type of furnishing the OP is making, you see dovetails on the vertical joining and splines on the horizontal joining(1).

Challenge is to look at a joint... Figure out how you want your design to look visually. Figure out the forces applied. Choose a joining technique that applies. In reality- You "could" use any joining technique (including glued butt joints or butt joint with nails...) to get it together, but think about what you want to invest into it... and what you are trying to do.

Notes: 
(1) In holding a bottom... Tops are fine with dovetailing or miters. But again if a miter in a top, you assume that weight will not be applied to the top of the top... or the shear forces will push the sides apart over time. If weight is to be considered onto a top with a mitered joint, then a loose spline will help prevent that...
(2) Visualize an Oak chest, with heavy brass bolstering and exposed heavy hinges... Or Mission style with exposed forged iron fittings and round headed studs.
EDIT-- (Sidenote) One thing we don't talk about much here is veneers. I would hate to see that as becoming a lost art. I am happy to hear when members try that out...


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

I'm chewing on it, haven't got it all digested quite yet. I do have to wonder of the majority of the people looking at this thread readily understand what is being discussed and illustrated. I admit that I am having trouble understanding, but that is not new for me.

Jerry


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Jerry Bowen said:


> Charles,
> Wouldn't what you described require a right tilt blade or being able to put the fence on the left side of the blade if the blade were a left tilt blade??
> 
> Jerry


It wouldn't matter which tilt you have Jerry. You would just put the fence on the side opposite the one the saw tilts to. You might need a sacrificial board attached to the fence over the blade to get the setting right.

I see that the OP doesn't want a through spline if he goes with this. It is possible to do a stopped spline groove on a miter by retracting the blade below the table and moving your piece to where you want it to start and raising the blade the measured amount of turns for your spline. Advance the board to where you want the groove to stop and either stop the saw or retract the blade below the table again.

As Stick points out a biscuit cutter is much faster and easier and works just as well. For all practical purposes, a biscuit is a short spline. If you want to make splines with a router and straight bit you need to make a jig that will hold the piece at 45* to the router table. The groove on a mitred face has to be 90* to the face. That puts both grooves in the same plane when the mitres come together.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Jerry Bowen said:


> I'm chewing on it, haven't got it all digested quite yet. I do have to wonder of the majority of the people looking at this thread readily understand what is being discussed and illustrated. I admit that I am having trouble understanding, but that is not new for me.
> 
> Jerry


no problem...


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Sorry... I had edited my last post to add more to it to finish my thoughts on that (initial post was to get the illustration posted, but had no explanation for it yet)... And to fill it holes in those thoughts. While I was adding to it, by the time I had finished it, there was other posts.

Sometimes after I read something I wrote, I think- that could be misread. Maybe I should reword that a bit.. LOL.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

MAFoElffen said:


> Sorry... I had edited my last post to add more to it to finish my thoughts on that
> 
> Sometimes after I read something I wrote, I think- that could be misread. Maybe I should reword that a bit.. LOL.


don't worry...
seems you haven't gotten to the point of asking yourself...

""where was I going with this""...


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Stick486 said:


> don't worry...
> ""where was I going with this""...


I think the title of the post, along with Charles last post and his agreement on your post summarized that.

Depending where the joint is and the design of the piece, should dictate what kind of joining. On what the OP said he was trying to do, it sort of went in many directions from the first post. Whereas, with what it evolved to, in the tradition of his design, you were spot on with a biscuit (or other loose spline or loose tenon) joint in a miter joint.


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## billyjim (Feb 11, 2012)

Charles you have me re-thinking this now. Thinking about a vertical spine at top and bottom for about 8-10" and then two sets of dovetails about where the vertical ends. I like the vertical for a couple of reasons not the least of which is to help align the two pieces of the corner when it comes to glue-up.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

The spline definitely helps with alignment on that plane and makes for a stronger glue joint. Besides adding more glue surface (double or more) the shear plane across the miter changes from just through the glue joint to also having to shear the wooden spline.

You don't need to stop and start it. You can machine through the spline where you want your dovetails and it won't matter a bit. You also don't have to have a continuous spline either. You could make a continuous groove, stopped before the ends or right through, and then use sections of splines or even a handful of biscuits. You could then just use some some nice wood for the ends of the groove if it is a through groove. Lots of options here and all of them are an improvement compared to no spline IMHO. 

I hope no one has discouraged you from adding the dovetails through this discussion. I think that with the addition of elements like that that you improve the look of craftsmanship in the piece.


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

MAFoElffen said:


> I think the title of the post, along with Charles last post and his agreement on your post summarized that.
> 
> Depending where the joint is and the design of the piece, should dictate what kind of joining. On what the OP said he was trying to do, it sort of went in many directions from the first post. Whereas, with what it evolved to, in the tradition of his design, you were spot on with a biscuit (or other loose spline or loose tenon) joint in a miter joint.


Mike,
Is the bottom line such that it is agreed that the loose spline is stronger than a miter lock joint. If you are saying that, and I'm sure that you are, I can't visualize it to be so. Did I miss something along the way?

Jerry


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## billyjim (Feb 11, 2012)

Thanks Charles. I was vacillating on this because I really like the looks of the dovetails but from what was being said, I didn't think it was going to strengthen the joint significantly. I think I will do the vertical the entire length and then just put in the dovetails where I find pleasing. Your answer really helped to solidify my thinking.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Your welcome Bill. Be sure to post some pics when you are done. If you could take some pictures of the dovetailing process that would be good too. I don't remember anyone documenting that process while I've been on the forum so we're overdue for a tutorial on that.


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## lenh (Feb 27, 2009)

Bill, please do post some pics. I am kind of curious what kind of chest you are building that is 33" high.


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## billyjim (Feb 11, 2012)

lenh said:


> Bill, please do post some pics. I am kind of curious what kind of chest you are building that is 33" high.


The boss gave me the dimensions that she wanted...33x52. It is going in a very specific location.


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

billyjim said:


> The boss gave me the dimensions that she wanted...33x52. It is going in a very specific location.


Ah, it's a jewelry chest then. :sarcastic:


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