# A routing tutorial for beginners Part one



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

The first shot shows the finished project, a coin tray for the dressing table, I could have made it on the lathe in perhaps half an hour, or even with the router in a much shorter time than this one took, however, the whole idea of this tutorial is to show beginners, who are no doubt only familiar with table routing, that there are other, more exciting ways in which the router can be used, I've generally used metric measurements because of the cutters and template guides that I have, however, this coin tray can be any size or height that you want, based on what cutters and guides you have. The piece of American Oak that I used just happened to measure 8.5" x 7" x 1 3/8" which added an extra stage to reduce it's height after routing both inside and outside. I would suggest that a 1" thick piece would be better, also a thinner template, about 3/8", this would mean that a collet extension wouldn't be needed. If a dish cutter isn't available, just leave the inside corner square

to be continued


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

*tutorial continued*

When sorting the photos, I realised that I had failed to take shots of some operations, the most important being how I routed the inside of the tray, so I did a mock set-up to show this with three shots at the end. If anyone has questions, don't hesitate to ask, the chances are that other members have the same questions but are too shy to ask, or feel that the question is foolish, no such thing, if you were in a classroom I'm sure you would raise your hand!

I've just noticed that shots 4 and 5 are transposed


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## Cochese (Jan 12, 2010)

Brilliant as usual, Harry. Will have to make one for Father's Day.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Harry

Nice job,,, 

The only thing I can say on the down side is that 40mm guide thing again, most don't have one in the states and that looks like a real key thing,must have item in your snapshots..to make one like yours..that may be a real turn off for the beginners..

I know you hate the brass guides but many in the states have the brass guides ( 1 3/16 " PC type ) 1" ID max. you can get the bits to fit but the collet nut will not fit into the guide hole..so to say it will not plunge to deep,1/2" max if that..with the guide in place, many ways to get around that but not for the beginners..

Maybe you should show how to do it with a diff.type of bit like a strait or a core bit.

You know me I do it all with just one template and use the BRASS guides and off set rings for the off sets.. 

http://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/smarthtml/pages/bt_core.html
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harrysin said:


> When sorting the photos, I realised that I had failed to take shots of some operations, the most important being how I routed the inside of the tray, so I did a mock set-up to show this with three shots at the end. If anyone has questions, don't hesitate to ask, the chances are that other members have the same questions but are too shy to ask, or feel that the question is foolish, no such thing, if you were in a classroom I'm sure you would raise your hand!
> 
> I've just noticed that shots 4 and 5 are transposed


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## gav (Oct 12, 2009)

Sounds like a good point BJ.
How about you show how to make the same thing the American way.

Although I don't have a 40mm guide, I learnt a lot from your tutorial Harry.
Keep them coming, I may just be able to make cool things with the router one day.
Hope you're not freezing with the record low temperatures you're having at the moment.


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## vredav (Sep 6, 2009)

Hi Harry,

Being a beginner I like these kind of tutorials.
They show me methods I haven't used before and are detailed enough that I don't get frustraited or make mistakes.
What size bushing did you use to cut the inside of the coin tray(Page #11a)?

David


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

Thanks Harry,

Even I can understand that.....LOL

James


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## sofasurfer (May 30, 2009)

Gosh Harry. The timing is impecable. I can not help but think that your tutorial was inspired by my question in the "How to make a template" thread.
Anyway, its a very good tutorial. It answers a lot of questions. Thanks. I will study it tomorrow after I get some sleep.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

bobj3 said:


> Hi Harry
> 
> Nice job,,,
> 
> ...


Thanks for your comments Bob, but I thought that I had explained that a similar project could be made any size according to the cutters and guides that that individuals have. For example, if the inside is going to be 5" diameter, and a 1" guide and a 1/2" cutter used, this gives an offset of 1/4", meaning the hole in the template would be 5.5" to rout the inside, leave the corners square, then, keep the same 1" guide but replace the cutter with a 1/4" one and this will give a 3/8" wall thickness which is very close to the 10mm of mine. You must also remember Bob that this thread wasn't so much to give an end product, but rather to demonstrate that there are so many different ways to use a router, especially a BIG one, by the way Bob, I appreciate you increasing my height in another thread, the truth is that I'm only 5' 2" ish and weigh a mere 145 pounds and have always found a heavy router easier to control than a lightweight one which moves and damages your project if you happen to cough let alone sneeze! As I mentioned in the thread, anyone with questions, just go ahead and ask, I'm sure that between us Bob we'll be able to handle whatever comes along.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

vredav said:


> Hi Harry,
> 
> Being a beginner I like these kind of tutorials.
> They show me methods I haven't used before and are detailed enough that I don't get frustraited or make mistakes.
> ...


David, I used a 40mm (a little over 1.5") for two reasons, so that I can SEE exactly what the cutter is doing, also to allow the collet extension to penetrate, rather than the unsafe way of fitting the short dish cutter with the router plunged and the guide in place. But remember that I stated that one can use whatever combination of cutters and guides that you have.
Do also read my answer to Bj's post


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

sofasurfer said:


> Gosh Harry. The timing is impecable. I can not help but think that your tutorial was inspired by my question in the "How to make a template" thread.
> Anyway, its a very good tutorial. It answers a lot of questions. Thanks. I will study it tomorrow after I get some sleep.


Whilst I can't give you complete credit for this thread, it came about by similar questions from many members in recent times. I'm a great believer in a picture being worth a thousand words, I've just saved myself 40,000 words!


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Gavin

It's not a new thing, in the states we can get many templates to do just that type of job without the need for the 40mm guide or any guides at all..the norm..

Here's just some of them 

New Products - Heart Bowl and Tray Templates
Gift Making Ideas - Holiday Bowl and Tray Templates
Eagle Originals - Universal Template Guide Plates
Best Sellers - Classic Bowl & Tray Templates
New Products - Serving Bowl & Tray Templates
http://www.eagleamerica.com/product/v144-0702/ea_-_groove_forming
http://www.eagleamerica.com/product/415-0660/best_sellers
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gav said:


> Sounds like a good point BJ.
> How about you show how to make the same thing the American way.
> 
> Although I don't have a 40mm guide, I learnt a lot from your tutorial Harry.
> ...


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## Al Robins (Jul 13, 2009)

Harry,I intended to send you a email re the following, but thought it better via the forum as it may help others. How critical are the dimensions of this project? 

I have a block of laminated pine 8 and1/4 by 8 inches by 2 and 3/8 thick. My largest brass guide bush is 35mm (1 and 3/8 inch) and a 12mm (1/2inch ) straight cutter.I have mdf for the template at 12 mill (1/2 inch) or 4 mm (1/4 inch)

Can I utilize the above for this project? My cam box is 2inches in height, Do I machine the workpiece back to say...1 and 1/4 inch to take the half inch template, or 1 3/4 inches to take the 1/4 inch? If this is unacceptable can I use the cam board without the box...use double sided tape for the template and secure the workpiece with the cams?

I also realize you cant answer each individuals problems but maybe you can shed some light on these questions.

Regards.........AL


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Al Robins said:


> Harry,I intended to send you a email re the following, but thought it better via the forum as it may help others. How critical are the dimensions of this project?
> 
> I have a block of laminated pine 8 and1/4 by 8 inches by 2 and 3/8 thick. My largest brass guide bush is 35mm (1 and 3/8 inch) and a 12mm (1/2inch ) straight cutter.I have mdf for the template at 12 mill (1/2 inch) or 4 mm (1/4 inch)
> 
> ...


Al, there is nothing critical in this project, it was aimed at beginners to show them alternate methods of using the router. I'll try to answer your questions as they appear.
2 3/8" is far too thick for this project, even using a straight cutter you would be struggling to reach a 2" cut, especially if you intended to use skis, which I didn't for the inside. In any case, do you really have that much spare change for such a deep coin tray? By making the tray about 5" dia., it ensured that the router could sit directly on the template for plunge routing the inside, bigger than that and the skis would be required.

The 1 3/8" guide would be fine and if used with the 1/2" cutter would give an offset of 7/16" meaning that the hole in the template would be 7/8" bigger than the inside of the dish, in other words if the dish internal diameter is 5", then the hole in the template will be 5 7/8". By using the same guide and cutter, the wall thickness will be 7/16".

The 1/2" MDF is better than 1/4" and is what I used, simply because it was handy, but I normally use 3/8".

As for securing the work piece, it really doesn't matter how you do it, I personally find the method shown to be the simplest. I do have a selection of boxes/frames using various methods of securing the wood and vary these on different projects to show members different methods that can be used, but do bear in mind Al, the forum motto: KISS, keep it super simple.

Finally, let me assure everyone that metric is far, far easier to calculate offsets than Imperial and if members started to tell manufactures and retailers that they WANT metric guides and cutters, you will eventually get them and no doubt thank me for pushing this subject, also the fact that fixed base routers are for tradies in the building industry, the rest of the world, that is other than the USA use PLUNGE routers the norm. I hope that I've answered your questions Al, if not, keep asking, there will almost certainly be others in the same position.


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## Al Robins (Jul 13, 2009)

Thanks Harry...you have answered it well. I couldnt work out why you used such a large guide until I had a good look....thats the wall thickness...... the edge of the guide to the edge of the cutter... ok, I'm off to do some more........Regards...AL


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Al., the reasons that I use a LARGE guide are, I can SEE exactly what the cutter is doing, a bigger choice of cutters can be used, the swarf cant build up and compress causing heat build up and even a CMT collet extension will fit through it. A 1.5" guide is close enough to the 40mm one that I use most of the time.

I must just once more illustrate how much easier metric is to Imperial:

Using a 40mm guide and a 10mm cutter which is a difference of 30mm, divide this by two and we have a 15mm offset, dead easy without pencil and paper, now Imperial, using your example:

A 1 3/8" guide and a 1/2" cutter which is a difference of 7/8", divide this by two and we have an offset of 7/16.

For most members, which was the easiest?


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## Al Robins (Jul 13, 2009)

I havent got that far yet Harry as I used my skis for the first time to take roughly 3/4 of an inch off the work piece in 1/4 inch increments, and how easy and precise was that! Hardly any lines and a great surface to start without sanding (that will come later).....and YES YES lets stay with metric! Regards.........AL ps...there must be other members of this forum that have questions....come on folks...dont be shy!


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Al Robins said:


> I havent got that far yet Harry as I used my skis for the first time to take roughly 3/4 of an inch off the work piece in 1/4 inch increments, and how easy and precise was that! Hardly any lines and a great surface to start without sanding (that will come later).....and YES YES lets stay with metric! Regards.........AL ps...there must be other members of this forum that have questions....come on folks...dont be shy!


Al, forget the sanding, only the top of the wall will still remain and in order to get some more practice planing with the skis whilst still in the jig will be SO easy!


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## rastus (Mar 26, 2010)

THanks for the tutorial Harry, lots of good info. I'm still relatively new to routing so I don't know some of the slang names used, what do you mean by "the skis"? Again thanks.

Paul


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## Al Robins (Jul 13, 2009)

Welcome to the forum Paul. I am sure that Harry, BJ and the rest will answer all your questions that you ask, stay tuned, Regards........AL


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## Jack Wilson (Mar 14, 2010)

Harry, great tutorial, please continue with other project techniques. I have a lot of routers, but only use them in the simplest of ways and always want to find new ways to take advantage of their utility.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

rastus said:


> THanks for the tutorial Harry, lots of good info. I'm still relatively new to routing so I don't know some of the slang names used, what do you mean by "the skis"? Again thanks.
> 
> Paul


Welcome to the forum Paul, what a pleasure it was to read your profile, it's such a pity that some new members for reasons that I personally can't understand, fail to enter any details, such members will not derive the acceptance and respect that I know you will Paul. Before answering your question, I'm assuming, with good reason I believe that the chair shown was made by you, and that being so, my guess is that most members are likely to learn a great deal from YOU.

Regarding skis, these two shots show mine, it is a means of mounting a router and performing tasks that otherwise would be difficult or impossible to do by other means. By controlling the assembly by the ends, you get great mechanical advantage to accurately control the movement of the router. I certainly didn't invent the idea but I have been promoting it vigorously since I became a member. Acceptance was VERY slow because experienced members were so familiar with the way they had always used a router that the feeling struck me as "what does this old Aussie geezer know about routing" By sheer polite persistence, odd members stuck their toes in the water and were surprised by what they found, but the real increase in making skis happened after one of our most respected members, who reckoned he couldn't see any point in them finally succumbed and was blown away by them and has since come up with all manner of variations. For threads showing them being used, grab a coffee, sit down comfortably in front of your computer and take a stroll through my gallery. 
Here is a link to one of these threads:
http://www.routerforums.com/general-routing/10898-small-fully-routed-project.html


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Thanks Jack, have you looked through my gallery, and others of course, there's lots of interesting stuff to see!


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## rastus (Mar 26, 2010)

Harry thanks for the reply. I guess I should have looked at your gallery and that would have answered my question. I'm going to check that link you gave me and see if I can learn a little more about "ski's". Lots of good info on this site, as I said before I'm relativly new to using a router other than in my shop made bench mounted table. And since I just picked up the Bocsh combo kit I not only want to build a "Norm style" table but learn about routing with templates and other uses.
Yes you are right that Morris chair is my latest pride and joy(each successive piece replaces the previous). To date I've made in order a table lamp, end table for said lamp, Ottoman, Mission style sofa(including upholstery), bookcase for my daughter, and now I'm building a "Buffet" with details I've found on other pieces, I drew it using "sketchup", which is a free 3d drawing program from Google. Pretty cool learning to use that. Well again thanks for the info, now I have to go play in the shop. Later

Paul


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Paul, I hope that you intend to take a few photographs during the making of some of your projects, show and tell is nice, but does very little to SHOW members HOW things are done by other members. The show and tell bit is aimed at ALL members, you haven't been here long enough to show us anything.
I'm about to start another project for routing beginners, a second coin tray, but this time making it by what Bj calls "the American" way!


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## kp91 (Sep 10, 2004)

harrysin said:


> "what does this old Aussie geezer know about routing"


Quite a lot, my friend! And you're a pretty good teacher whether you believe it or not.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

gav said:


> Sounds like a good point BJ.
> How about you show how to make the same thing the American way.
> 
> Although I don't have a 40mm guide, I learnt a lot from your tutorial Harry.
> ...


Gavin, I'm about to start another coin tray project, made I hope "the American" way. It will be Pine, slightly smaller than the first one, the finish will be gloss paint with a felt inside bottom. Just one template guide, 1 1/8" and two straight cutters, a 1/2" and a 3/8", plus a round-over bit and a straight bearing cutter. An additional one for decoration is optional. I'd be surprised if these items aren't in most members shops. It will show the making of the male and female templates, both made with a circle jig


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## gav (Oct 12, 2009)

That's great Harry, but I was throwing down the gauntlet for BJ.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Gavin

hahahahahaha 
I have posted it ,the USA way, see my Gallery (Oval box) but I got a lot of flack from TT so I did back off..


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gav said:


> That's great Harry, but I was throwing down the gauntlet for BJ.


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## jschaben (Jun 21, 2009)

harrysin said:


> Gavin, I'm about to start another coin tray project, made I hope "the American" way. It will be Pine, slightly smaller than the first one, the finish will be gloss paint with a felt inside bottom. Just one template guide, 1 1/8" and two straight cutters, a 1/2" and a 3/8", plus a round-over bit and a straight bearing cutter. An additional one for decoration is optional. I'd be surprised if these items aren't in most members shops. It will show the making of the male and female templates, both made with a circle jig


Hi Harry - In my shop, 1" guide is the largest. But, I should be able to duplicate with a 1" guide, 3/8" and 1/4" bits, shouldn't I??


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## vjeko (Feb 5, 2009)

Harry,
not sure if I missed the info/skipped it somewhere - the 40 mm plastic guide - is that something you bought/made yourself - can you give a few details ?

(I'm finally going to buy some guides and was thinking of the Trend metal ones - if there's anything better, please tell me now or forever keep your peace  - everytime I need to import something I get a headache thinking about customs hastles and costs)

P.S. what setup do you have for inlay ?


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## Santé (Jan 14, 2010)

jschaben said:


> Hi Harry - In my shop, 1" guide is the largest. But, I should be able to duplicate with a 1" guide, 3/8" and 1/4" bits, shouldn't I??


Hi
I just finished this little table all with a guide 14mm, an other 24mm and a bit 5mm.
The 5mm bit on my little old router (Kress 450w) and the copy bit on my other router Kress 900w.
I had no problem 

Cheers
Santé


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## sofasurfer (May 30, 2009)

Hey Sante...Whats that big fuzzy looking thing on the chair?:lol:


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## Santé (Jan 14, 2010)

sofasurfer said:


> Hey Sante...Whats that big fuzzy looking thing on the chair?:lol:


It is "Chipie" my poppet dog !:haha:


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

jschaben said:


> Hi Harry - In my shop, 1" guide is the largest. But, I should be able to duplicate with a 1" guide, 3/8" and 1/4" bits, shouldn't I??[/quote
> Absolutely John, a 1" guide - 3/8" cutter = 5/16" offset which means that the hole in your template will be 5/8" bigger in diameter than the diameter of the inside of your coin tray.
> For the outside, 1" guide - 1/4" cutter = 3/8" offset, in other words the wall thickness will be 3/8"............PERFECT!
> 
> I've just sprayed primer on the new one, by the time it's had several coats of gloss and I've sorted the photographs, it will be a few days before posting.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

kp91 said:


> Quite a lot, my friend! And you're a pretty good teacher whether you believe it or not.


Gee Doug, I can feel myself blushing, such praise from a marine engineer is praise indeed, thank you.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

vjeko said:


> Harry,
> not sure if I missed the info/skipped it somewhere - the 40 mm plastic guide - is that something you bought/made yourself - can you give a few details ?
> 
> (I'm finally going to buy some guides and was thinking of the Trend metal ones - if there's anything better, please tell me now or forever keep your peace  - everytime I need to import something I get a headache thinking about customs hastles and costs)
> ...


Because you PM'd me the same question, I answered it via a PM, but for the sake of any other member, this is how I answered it.

Ah, the plastic guide, some time ago I posted a thread "making an illuminated router base" which turned out "brilliantly", however metal guides block the light and as the 40mm guide is my favourite because of it's many advantages mentioned many times in my threads, I turned a plastic 40mm guide which gives a similar amount of light as when I'm routing without a guide.
Because this is a very friendly forum and most of the regulars use first names, please don't take offence if I suggest that for the purpose of the forum, you Anglicise your name, perhaps to Jacko.
We seem to be building up a following from Croatia.
Just to show how friendly we can be and because you Have a Makita 3600BR which is what I have permanently on skis, and because I happen to have a spare 40mm template guide, please let me have your full street address by PM and I'll send it to you as a present.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Santé said:


> Hi
> I just finished this little table all with a guide 14mm, an other 24mm and a bit 5mm.
> The 5mm bit on my little old router (Kress 450w) and the copy bit on my other router Kress 900w.
> I had no problem
> ...


Your work is very beautiful Daniel, and I don't doubt for a moment that you used small guides, however, I suspect this is a case of "what you've never had, you never miss"! One of these days beg, borrow or steal a large guide and "see" the difference.


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## Santé (Jan 14, 2010)

harrysin said:


> Your work is very beautiful Daniel, and I don't doubt for a moment that you used small guides, however, I suspect this is a case of "what you've never had, you never miss"! One of these days beg, borrow or steal a large guide and "see" the difference.


Exactly Harry, i have only That 2. where I am here right now . The Problem Is That i have 2 shops and Than i must have all the tools 2 times, But You convinced me, I Will buy 1 (2?) Complete Series.

cheers
Daniel


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Gavin

For you, note the date on the picture ,note all done with one bit and one template.. 

====


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

bobj3 said:


> Hi Gavin
> 
> For you, note the date on the picture ,note all done with one bit and one template..
> 
> ====


I remember well Bob that you surprised T/T who was not happy because you worked out how to make an oval box by a different method to his! You no doubt will remember this shot of mine, around the same time.


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## Al Robins (Jul 13, 2009)

Hi Harry...Sorry, Ive been going over your tutorial for some time now and cant get my head around the photos #22#23#25 you mention of reducing the diameter of the male template. Then what happens and how? The only thing I can think of is to turn the workpiece up side down to rout the walls? Regards........AL


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Al, shot #22 shows the piece that was removed when I routed the hole in the main female template. Now, in order to make the male template (plug), I could have used a new sheet of MDF and routed it from that, but why waste material when I could simply reduce the diameter of the piece that I already had! Does this make sense Al?


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## Al Robins (Jul 13, 2009)

Yes Harry, got that but what do I do with it (be nice)...where does it fit in the scheme of things...as you can see by the photo, this is as far as Ive got, Regards....AL


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Al

Just a butt in post ,the template you have now is a good start for T.T. 12 sided clock (12 points) all you need to do is put in some half circle holes in your template, one template for more than one job thing..

clock below
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRVl7ch5fP8

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Al Robins said:


> Yes Harry, got that but what do I do with it (be nice)...where does it fit in the scheme of things...as you can see by the photo, this is as far as Ive got, Regards....AL


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## levon (Sep 14, 2008)

hi Al,
nice job on the camboard and template holder.
im sure Harry will be here to help you soon.

i think you need to route the inside and then fit the plug to fit in it snugly and then use the plug to shape the outside. he can explain it and heck i may be wrong in my thinking.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Al, Levon has shown that he has grasped the procedure. As he said, at the stage that you're at, you're ready to rout the INSIDE of the tray, THEN make a male template (plug) to be a tight fit into the INSIDE of the tray for the guide to press against whilst routing the OUTSIDE of the tray. You may recall that I used 1/2" MDF for the plug so that it sits deep enough (with packing underneath) to be firm, but protruding enough so that the guide has sufficient to press against. One final point Al, looking at the photo., it looks like there is a gap between the template and jig holder on the right of the photo, if this is so, jam in some packing so that there is NO movement at all of the template.When you're ready to fit the plug for routing the outside, no screws will be used, the plug is to be a tight fit sat on packing and if you find it too loose, shim it with paper, if too tight, sand it.Your progress is excellent Al.


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## Al Robins (Jul 13, 2009)

Thanks Levon,BJ and Harry,yep, gotcha now,all good...couldnt see in the photo where the male template went....looked that snug I thought it was just sitting on the workpiece. Lesson learnt, I will never use a template less than 1/2 inch in thickness....I may even discard the one I,m using for something thicker! its little more than a 1/4. 

...Have any of you people ever used a rough sawn blank/slab using this same technique? Cant think why it wouldnt work...stick the rough blank in the cam board , level it with the skis and away we go...seems too easy...must be drama somewhere!!!!!! Regards.........AL


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

Al Robins said:


> Thanks Levon,BJ and Harry,yep, gotcha now,all good...couldnt see in the photo where the male template went....looked that snug I thought it was just sitting on the workpiece. Lesson learnt, I will never use a template less than 1/2 inch in thickness....I may even discard the one I,m using for something thicker! its little more than a 1/4.
> 
> ...Have any of you people ever used a rough sawn blank/slab using this same technique? Cant think why it wouldnt work...stick the rough blank in the cam board , level it with the skis and away we go...seems too easy...must be drama somewhere!!!!!! Regards.........AL



Goin' well, Al.

Keep up the good work.

James


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Al Robins said:


> Thanks Levon,BJ and Harry,yep, gotcha now,all good...couldnt see in the photo where the male template went....looked that snug I thought it was just sitting on the workpiece. Lesson learnt, I will never use a template less than 1/2 inch in thickness....I may even discard the one I,m using for something thicker! its little more than a 1/4.
> 
> ...Have any of you people ever used a rough sawn blank/slab using this same technique? Cant think why it wouldnt work...stick the rough blank in the cam board , level it with the skis and away we go...seems too easy...must be drama somewhere!!!!!! Regards.........AL


Al, I normally use 9mm, about 3/8" for templates, however for that tutorial I used what I had which was 1/2", however, if it had been only 3/8", I would have used a piece of 1/2" for the plug.
There are a number of projects in my gallery where I have planed a slab using the skis, where I've placed the slab directly on the sacrificial bench top, held with a piece of scrap on each side. Why complicate things with the cam board, in this situation it's not only over-kill but somewhat of a hindrance. Because you have a hammer Al, it doesn't mean that you must use it on every project (except to pin the four pieces of scrap around the work-piece of course!)


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## Al Robins (Jul 13, 2009)

Thanks James and Harry,....yer..well...we had our little dramas today, some of which I will talk about later with photos, also the obligatory questions. Regards.....Al


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## kolias (Dec 26, 2008)

Really enjoyed your tutorial Harry, thanks for taking the time


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## Al Robins (Jul 13, 2009)

Harry, When I use the round over bit, I assume I'l be using the skis for better control? also, no need for guide bush as the bearing will do the job? Regards.......AL


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## jimini2001 (Mar 28, 2010)

Thanks Harry. It is a nice thing that you would take the time to do something like this. It is a great tutorial and I picked up a couple of neat tricks here. Your time is appreciated.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Al Robins said:


> Harry, When I use the round over bit, I assume I'l be using the skis for better control? also, no need for guide bush as the bearing will do the job? Regards.......AL


Spot on Al, but the reason for doing it that way was because the template was no longer being used so there would have been insufficient surface to sit the router on, making the skis the easiest way to do the round-over. In any case, the point of these tutorials is to show as many ways as possible of using the router. If you study "a routing tutorial for beginners #2, you'll notice that I did the round-over in a totally different way. I hope that you are progressing with your version Al.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

jimini2001 said:


> Thanks Harry. It is a nice thing that you would take the time to do something like this. It is a great tutorial and I picked up a couple of neat tricks here. Your time is appreciated.


Thanks Jim and Nicolas, in fact all who found benefit and took the time to post remarks. It's such feedback that makes the time taken to produce these projects, photograph them, sort the shots, add text, adjust brightness/contrast/colour/sharpness and then post the thread well worth the time and effort.
Next week I'm hoping to rout a small square tray/box using a 1" and 3/4" guide and a 1/2" and 1/4" cutter, which items I'm led to believe most American router users have.


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## Santé (Jan 14, 2010)

Hello everyone 
Congratiluations Harry for your teaching and your methodoligy 

i just made this little thing just for the fun
This one (the wood, not the glas) was made with an other methode, without template and without guide .
but which method ?
That is the question !


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Daniel

I use the 3 1/8" forstner bit and a hole saw and a small round over for that type of job  quick job in about 3 mins. to make.. 

Forstner Bit Set - Peachtree Woodworking Supply

=======


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## reprosser (Apr 30, 2010)

As a real newbie to routing, the tutorial has lots of information. The pictures sure make a big difference. Some of it I don't have a clue about, but as I learn about how to use a router, I will catch up.


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## Santé (Jan 14, 2010)

bobj3 said:


> Hi Daniel
> 
> I use the 3 1/8" forstner bit and a hole saw and a small round over for that type of job  quick job in about 3 mins. to make..
> 
> ...


Hi Bob,
3 1/8 = +/- 8cm, mine is 10 cm interior and 12 extérior, but i can make it at 6,5cm, 11,8cm, 13,5 etc.. the measures are not fixed i make what i like 

The question is not resolved !:haha:


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## kolias (Dec 26, 2008)

Santé said:


> Hello everyone
> Congratiluations Harry for your teaching and your methodoligy
> 
> i just made this little thing just for the fun
> ...


Nice idea Daniel


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Santé said:


> Hello everyone
> Congratiluations Harry for your teaching and your methodoligy
> 
> i just made this little thing just for the fun
> ...


That really is nice but how about showing everyone HOW you made it, that's how we all learn different methods of achieving a similar result.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

bobj3 said:


> Hi Daniel
> 
> I use the 3 1/8" forstner bit and a hole saw and a small round over for that type of job  quick job in about 3 mins. to make..
> 
> ...


Bob, my dear dear friend, I'm sure Bernie could turn one in his lathe in minutes, but the whole point of this thread is to show different methods of using the ROUTER, not the fastest way. In over three years that I've been a member of this forum, it became obvious that very few members EVER used template guides probably because very little has been written about their use. In my declining years I'm attempting to take over where T/T left off and show members how versatile the router becomes when templates and guides enter the equation.


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## Al Robins (Jul 13, 2009)

Well, Ive finally finished my first attempt of making a bowl/coin tray entirely with the router, under the tutorlidge of Headmaster Harry, who I thank very much. Although the end result leaves a lot to be desired I would like to show some points that I need to address and maybe other newbies.

First, make sure your template is at least 3/8 inch thick, I fell for this trap twice, and reverted to using 1/2 inch....OR...at least 2/3 of the height of the guide bush from the base plate of the router! Any thing less is a pain!

Second. I dont know what size bit Harry used to cut the template, I used 11 mm straight cutter. I can do better next time with something smaller in width I think...maybe some one else would care to shed some light on this. After I cut the template, it was far too small to be used as a plug, so over to the trusty wood lathe and chisels.I made it with a slight bevel so a couple of mm was inside the top, also secured with a block and small screws for stability.

Next...Make sure the skis are exactly the same height, One of the photos shows a "ring" on a quarter of the sides...although I now reckon that I had something else out of whack.

I did not use the round over bit on the inside of the bowl as the wall thickness did not allow....(sometimes my measuring leaves a lot to be desired!)

In conclusion, It was sometimes a frustrating project. mainly trying to sort out the depth gauge on the 3612, but overall it was a great learning piece, and I thank all that contributed, Regards........AL


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

May I be the first to congratulate you Al, for a first attempt at using unfamiliar techniques I consider that you have done very well. The way you planed the wood however strikes me as having made things difficult for yourself. By having the skis running parallel to the cam board means that after each strip you would have had to slide the router along the rods ready for the next cut. By doing this you have made a quick simple job into a chore. Keep things as simple as possible, the cam board, as nice as it is, was not required for the purpose of planing the block. I have posted shots of the block held on the bench with a scrap of MDF/ply pinned on each side of the block, this gives freedom to move the skis in all directions, it's easy to rout a strip going in one direction then come back in the opposite direction for the next cut and when the skis are close to the block, slide the router along the rods (and lock it of course) so that you can continue to route the rest of the block.
Finally, I've just realised why you've made it so deep, being a retired farmer you would be considered to be wealthy and have pockets full of gold coins in your pockets each night!!! Now my friend, it's time to make another tray, following the tutorial in #2, because of the simpler method plus the experience you now have, I think you will get great enjoyment from it.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Al

You did a nice job , now the fun starts..

=====


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## Dr.Zook (Sep 10, 2004)

You're hooked now Al. Nice, first bowl project mate.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Bj is dead right Al, now that you're aware of these techniques you have a lot of routing enjoyment ahead of you, and that's not all, I'm sure you will want to learn more!


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## Santé (Jan 14, 2010)

Hi all

That explains how I did this thing: it starts as Harry (thank you Harry, before I put clamps around !) First photo (the guide bushing is not necessary)
But I have my "compass tripod" - an invention which I am very proud, photo 2 and 3,
Just set the center, photo 4
and replace the disc with the router, set the radius Photo 5.
The rest is like Harry.

Cheers
Santé


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## Al Robins (Jul 13, 2009)

Sante,Dave BJ and Harry...Thanks for your encouragement...and Sante, I will have a good look at your project....However....I couldnt work out how I got the"ring" on the edge of the bowl...well, dopeys got the router bush and plate upside down!!!! when I went to take the bit out the screws wernt counter sunk...and yep, the ferrule that tightens the bush was being used as the guide....BUT DONT TELL NO ONE!!!..........Regards...AL


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Daniel, that's an extremely interesting set-up, albeit a little difficult to take in with the one post. I hope that you are going to present us with further projects using this method so that I can get a better understanding of the method.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Al Robins said:


> Sante,Dave BJ and Harry...Thanks for your encouragement...and Sante, I will have a good look at your project....However....I couldnt work out how I got the"ring" on the edge of the bowl...well, dopeys got the router bush and plate upside down!!!! when I went to take the bit out the screws wernt counter sunk...and yep, the ferrule that tightens the bush was being used as the guide....BUT DONT TELL NO ONE!!!..........Regards...AL


I really don't know what I'm going to do with you Al.,but whilst I'm considering, I won't mention it to anyone!


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Daniel

Very unique and very well done  I can't wait until you find out about the guides/bushing and how easy they can do the jobs the KISS way, I love jigs but I found out that one needs to keep it simple and easy or no one will try it and pick it up .. 


Note Daniel

see snapshot below.look familiar 

=======



Santé said:


> Hi all
> 
> That explains how I did this thing: it starts as Harry (thank you Harry, before I put clamps around !) First photo (the guide bushing is not necessary)
> But I have my "compass tripod" - an invention which I am very proud, photo 2 and 3,
> ...


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## Santé (Jan 14, 2010)

Hi Harry
Here is the press article published in "Idées Défonceuse", a french press revue for woodworkers (this press revue is currently dead ).
It is in french, but with photos and drawing you will understand how it work.
have you Sketchup ? I can give you the file of the drawing of this material.


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## Santé (Jan 14, 2010)

Hi Bob,

This jig is very simple, a big hole in wich a plate rotate. on this plate is attached the router wich can move from the center to periphery.
The plate is guided by 3 bearing. that is all. 
Simple no ?

Santé


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Daniel

With a quick 1" slot put in the plate they are the same  but the one I have can be adjusted to just about any template hole pattern ...


===



Santé said:


> Hi Bob,
> 
> This jig is very simple, a big hole in wich a plate rotate. on this plate is attached the router wich can move from the center to periphery.
> The plate is guided by 3 bearing. that is all.
> ...


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Thank you Daniel for posting the pdf. I've "studied" it but with my 76 year old brain I have to admit defeat, it makes little sense to me, I'm going to have to stick with templates and guides. I do have sketchup but that too is beyond me!


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## Santé (Jan 14, 2010)

OK Harry

i am so old as you, Harry, and my english is 60 years old but i will try to translate this file as i can with help of Google translate.

This must take time !

Daniel


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Thank you for that offer Daniel, I suspect the I won't be the only one interested in a translation.


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## Swallow (Jan 13, 2010)

Santé said:


> Hi Bob,
> 
> This jig is very simple, a big hole in wich a plate rotate. on this plate is attached the router wich can move from the center to periphery.
> The plate is guided by 3 bearing. that is all.
> ...


Sante
Simple yes. Very easy to understand and well made. Perhaps a couple of knobs on the plastic disk might help some understand the rotation. This jig would also offer excellent repeatability no?


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

Hi Al,

great reward for persistence.

keep it up.

James


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## Al Robins (Jul 13, 2009)

Thanks James. I am going to have a hack at the American version on....Friday/Sat... depending on interruptions, let ya know how I get on, ....Regards.......AL


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## Al Robins (Jul 13, 2009)

.........ps....Harry,BJ and others....what size bits do you use when cutting template circles etc. does smaller give you more exact profiles? wondering....AL


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## Santé (Jan 14, 2010)

Hi all

I have translated some pages of my "compass tripode"
Here is any firsts one.
Will you say if it is understanding for any english woodworkers ?
Thanks

Page 1 Page 1 
COMPASS TRIPOD FOR ROUTER
(Without centre and with micro adjustment)
By “Santé”
Member of the French woodworkers site
Association Les copeaux

This compass allows routing circles and arcs of 0 to 280mm diameter, without having to fix one way or another a centre.
Diameter of these circles is adjustable.
Of course, for great circles you can glue a centre with double-face, or with hot-melt glue, but for routing small diameters, we must work with templates drilled holes with diameters calculated according to the diameter of the ring to be copied and the used bit. 
The unit that I present below, can be work with the greatest accuracy while circle whose radius is adjustable millimetric, readable on lath graduated and all for a minimal investment. 

PRINCIPLE 

The principle is very simple: the router is mounted on a Plexiglas disc and can move radially from the centre of the disc to its circumference. 
This disc can rotates, guided by three ball bearings on an MDF board pierced with a circular hole of 300 mm, 
(The router of this outbreak, carried out under Sketchup, was kindly provided by my friend Bgum, eminent 3D design specialist) 

Page 2 
MAKING THE COMPASS 

Material

1 square MDF board 450 mm side 
A Plexiglas disc 330 mm diameter
1 disc MDF 300 mm
A Plexiglas disk 100 
3 8 x 22 bearings 
3 8 x 30 bolts 
1 6 x 40 bolt
2 strips 8 x 20 x 200 mm
A knurled nut M6 
Two round bars of 8 x 300 
2 x M5 inserts 
2 wings bolts M5 x 20 
A threaded rod 6 x 70 
Some washers and nuts M6 and M8 
2 small hardwood stock
A dial gauge +/- 20 cm.
A little courage. 

Page 3 
The basis 
The base is simply a square of MDF 450mm x 12mm thick. 

You draw the diagonals to determine the centre to route a hole of 150 mm radius. 
I routed the circle to a depth of 5 or 6 mm, cut with scroll saw and finished with copy bit.
This hole will be perfect, without any asperity or hollow; this would result in a failure during future routing. 
To facilitate the sliding of the Plexiglas disc on the MDF board, I inserted six blocks of silicon kindly provided to me by my friend Sdol well known on French woodworking’s forums.

2) The Plexiglas disk

The rotating disc is a bit more complicated to make. 
This disc is cut from a sheet of Plexiglas 10 mm thick, for a radius of 165 mm. After drilling a 2 mm hole in the centre, I route the circle of 5 or 6 mm in depth, Before detaching this disc completely from the rectangular plate, I drew a circle of 139 mm radius to determine the location of three ball bearings. 139 = 150 radius of the big hole, less 11 mm, radius of ball bearings .so, this will turn inside the hole. These bearings 22 x 8 come from roller skates wheel purchased second hand for a few euros).


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## kp91 (Sep 10, 2004)

Thanks Daniel!


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Al Robins said:


> .........ps....Harry,BJ and others....what size bits do you use when cutting template circles etc. does smaller give you more exact profiles? wondering....AL


Where possible Al I use a 10mm plunge cutter, It's strong compared to anything smaller when deep routing yet it doesn't leave too much swarf.

Having said that, when producing a project "the American" way I have to consider what cutters the average beginner is likely to have. For instance, my next tutorial is going to be a small square box. I intend to use a 1/2" cutter to rout the inside and a 1/4" cutter for the outside. Once you gain a little more experience Al, you WILL be in a position to make these decisions yourself, and because you now know how to calculate off-sets, you'll be able to juggle guides and cutters to produce particular off-sets.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Thank you Daniel for going to all that trouble, I have saved it and will study it at length when I'm in just the right mood. I have glanced through it and only the odd word here and there is confusing but we'll sort that out later. I did however notice amongst the materials required, "a little courage" You are spot on there Daniel.


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## Santé (Jan 14, 2010)

Hi
Good news,
The translation of "Compass tripode" is ended and will be soon on my french site "lescopeaux.asso.fr, we expect the french version, this version make more work to my others friends which will install the files on the site because i have only this version in PDF and they will work on this file before installing it on the site.
Maybe this will be the first file in our two langages, the first of a long list ?

Cheers
Santé


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

Great, Daniel!


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## SrgB (Nov 16, 2010)

[QUOTE = harrysin; 178779] первый выстрел показывает готовый проект, монеты лоток для туалетного столика, я мог бы сделать на токарном станке в полчаса, или даже с маршрутизатором в гораздо более короткие сроки, чем это принял, однако, сама идея этого урока является показать новичкам, которые, без сомнения, знакомы только с таблицей маршрутизации, что Существуют другие, более интересные способы, в которых маршрутизатор может быть использован, я обычно используются метрики измерений из-за резаки и шаблон направляющие, которые я, однако, эта монета лоток может быть любого размера и высоты, что вы хотите, основанный на том, что резцы и руководства у вас есть. Часть американского дуба, который я использовал только что произошло в меру 8,5 "х 7" х 1 3 / 8 ", который добавили дополнительный этап, чтобы уменьшить его высоту после маршрутизации как внутри, так и за ее пределами. Я хотел бы предложить, что 1" толстый кусок будет лучше, тоньше и шаблонов, около 3 / 8 ", это будет означать, что цанга продление не будет необходимости. Если блюдо резака нет, просто оставить в квадратных углу

продолжение следует [/ QUOTE]

Hi, Harry!
I apologize for the bad English.
I'm a beginner. With a PC uncertain.
I thanked Darrin. First you. Your lesson to me very much.
Thank you for the lesson. Waiting for the next one!
Sincerely, Sergey.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Thank YOU Sergey for your kind words. I'm working on a few new projects at the moment and hope to have one ready for the forum in a week or two.


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## SrgB (Nov 16, 2010)

[QUOTE = Santé; 182958] Привет Гарри
Вот пресс статье, опубликованной в "иде Défonceuse", французского ревю пресс для плотников (настоящем пресс-ревю в настоящее время мертвых).
Это по-французски, но с фотографиями и рисования вы поймете, как это работает.
Вы SketchUp? Я могу дать вам файл розыгрыша этого материала. [/ QUOTE]

Attached Files

COMPAS TRIPODE POUR DEFONCEUSE.pdf (818.0 KB, 26 views)




Hi, Daniel!
I apologize for the bad English.
I'm a beginner. With a PC user is uncertain.
Daniel, thank you for a PDF file - a pair of compasses. Very interesting design. It does not matter that the French, there are pictures. All clear.
Thank you.
Sincerely, Sergey.


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## Santé (Jan 14, 2010)

Thanks Sergey for your kind appreciation.
My english is not better than yours but we can understand us it is the more important.

Daniel


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## 57delrio (May 31, 2009)

*Thanks*

Good to have a plethora of info and pics presented, a lot of useful info and tips!!!11:dance3:


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## blademansw (Sep 14, 2009)

An excellent tutorial thanks.


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## shotgun (Mar 12, 2010)

*Very Professional tutorials*

Thanks for these great tutorials. They are very easy to understand and I'm getting started on making sawdust with them. I'm sure the sawdust will come out good and if the actual steps are as easy as the written material makes them seem, the projects should be great as well.

Regards,
Roy Moore


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Keep us informed of your progress Roy.


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## jeeper (Jan 9, 2011)

Sante, You are amazing! Wish I could even do a small amount of what you do. That really is beautiful work!!


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## jeeper (Jan 9, 2011)

Hi Harry, Very nice work with the skis. Though I dont yet totaly understand the need yet, I am sure I will soon. So far the only problem is I have a Ryobi and a Ridgid Router. I am not sure which Router I should use to set up with skis. I love using the Ridgid on a home made table top. But I have a store bought table for the Ryobi that also works. Any ideas, thoughts? Thanks...

Larry


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Larry

I don't want to step on Harry's toes but here's a way to get the job done >

Just a note if you don't want to use all thread rod that Harry hates you go to the next type and use just plain rod without the need of threads on the ends and use lock collars to hold the router in place..see last snapshot..

=====



jeeper said:


> Hi Harry, Very nice work with the skis. Though I dont yet totaly understand the need yet, I am sure I will soon. So far the only problem is I have a Ryobi and a Ridgid Router. I am not sure which Router I should use to set up with skis. I love using the Ridgid on a home made table top. But I have a store bought table for the Ryobi that also works. Any ideas, thoughts? Thanks...
> 
> Larry


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## ppharper (Jan 22, 2008)

Harry,

The addition of the zip for the images is great. Any chance you could do the same for the first three parts?

Pete


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

jeeper said:


> Hi Harry, Very nice work with the skis. Though I dont yet totaly understand the need yet, I am sure I will soon. So far the only problem is I have a Ryobi and a Ridgid Router. I am not sure which Router I should use to set up with skis. I love using the Ridgid on a home made table top. But I have a store bought table for the Ryobi that also works. Any ideas, thoughts? Thanks...
> 
> Larry


Thanks for your kind words Larry. I always suggest using the router with the largest diameter holes for the rods to go through and as a mechanic, I'm sure that turning down and threading the ends of the rods will present no problems. When you have time, look through my gallery where you'll see heaps of uses for the ski mounted router, but you really will need time, lots of it!


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

ppharper said:


> Harry,
> 
> The addition of the zip for the images is great. Any chance you could do the same for the first three parts?
> 
> Pete


How about these pdf's, with thanks to Darrin for producing them


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## CAF (Mar 2, 2012)

Thanks, Harry. Line upon line precept upon precept. CAF


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## wingman 1944 (Oct 10, 2012)

Thank you for the tutorials Harry.I must say that I appreciate Metric sizes.


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## kolias (Dec 26, 2008)

Excellent tutorials Harry and the presentation makes them even better


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Thanks guys, once I've completed all that's going on in my shed at the moment, I hope to produce another project aimed at the budding routologists and I'm going to be metric only! Hopefully by that time metric bits and template guides will be available, won't they Mike! (Mike as in forum liaison)


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## CAF (Mar 2, 2012)

I enjoy and apprecciate these begionner tutorials. I was wondering if there were any recommended beginner projects which could be used to both learn technique and develop skills that are recommended anywhere. Technique is fine but so is practice and practice that yileds a practical end project better yet. Especially if it keeps the frustration to a minimum. Thanks CAF "Clark"


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## BRAVOGOLFTANGO (Oct 11, 2012)

Thank you for sharing, making one out of a slab of cedar I found in a field and cut into slices. I keep leaving my loose change in my slacks and that gets into my wife's new dryer, haha, doesn't go over well, so need a coin tray. Much obliged sir.


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Trend metric guide bushings are in the US now but nobody has them listed. I will be working the phone again tomorrow on this. The Whiteside metric bit set #460 is available for order from Woodcraft. Woodcraft also has listings for metric bits from Freud.

More good things are in the works but I prefer not to comment on them until they are locked in.


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## old knothead (Apr 25, 2013)

harrysin said:


> The first shot shows the finished project, a coin tray for the dressing table, I could have made it on the lathe in perhaps half an hour, or even with the router in a much shorter time than this one took, however, the whole idea of this tutorial is to show beginners, who are no doubt only familiar with table routing, that there are other, more exciting ways in which the router can be used, I've generally used metric measurements because of the cutters and template guides that I have, however, this coin tray can be any size or height that you want, based on what cutters and guides you have. The piece of American Oak that I used just happened to measure 8.5" x 7" x 1 3/8" which added an extra stage to reduce it's height after routing both inside and outside. I would suggest that a 1" thick piece would be better, also a thinner template, about 3/8", this would mean that a collet extension wouldn't be needed. If a dish cutter isn't available, just leave the inside corner square
> 
> to be continued


i agrea ! a real friend is hard to find these days.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

It really is easy to make lasting friendships on THIS forum, by the way I'm 79!


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## almost there (Apr 12, 2011)

Thanks, Harry. Good demonstration!


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Thanks Lee. Those magswitches are the best thing since sliced bread don't you think?


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## mklett33 (Dec 4, 2013)

Very cool project, thanks for taking the time to post it


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Thank you Mark. Have you studied all five tutorials?


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## kevin887 (Mar 11, 2014)

harrysin said:


> The first shot shows the finished project, a coin tray for the dressing table, I could have made it on the lathe in perhaps half an hour, or even with the router in a much shorter time than this one took, however, the whole idea of this tutorial is to show beginners, who are no doubt only familiar with table routing, that there are other, more exciting ways in which the router can be used, I've generally used metric measurements because of the cutters and template guides that I have, however, this coin tray can be any size or height that you want, based on what cutters and guides you have. The piece of American Oak that I used just happened to measure 8.5" x 7" x 1 3/8" which added an extra stage to reduce it's height after routing both inside and outside. I would suggest that a 1" thick piece would be better, also a thinner template, about 3/8", this would mean that a collet extension wouldn't be needed. If a dish cutter isn't available, just leave the inside corner square
> 
> to be continued


Thanks Harry,:yes4:


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