# Shopping for a new table saw



## qulevrius (Mar 18, 2019)

The more I learn, the more I realize how little I know. So, in line with shopping for a new fence and after much deliberation and soul searching, I came to the realization that it is necessary to get a new saw. In particular, I’ve been looking into contractor and hybrid models and for my budget, the top picks would be Ridgid R4512 and Grizzly 0771Z. 

I’m leaning more towards the Ridgid since it’s readily available at a big orange store, about 30% cheaper than the Grizzly and easier to pay off; there are certain things I’ve read about it that concern me somewhat, but I’d like some input from the community first.


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## woodknots (Mar 7, 2012)

Depends on what your concerns are with the Ridgid. Several of the members here (me included) have the Bosch 4100-09 and are pleased with it. That's not the newer model with the safety feature (REAXX). The -09 means it has the gravity rise stand. I bought a used one a few years ago, after much searching and deliberation to replace an older 8" Beaver I had for many years. TBH, I took it off the stand and built my own stand. If you have limited space, the gravity rise stand comes in handy as you can fold the saw/stand up and roll it into a corner. I really deliberated on getting a cabinet saw, but couldn't justify the price and even used ones (unisaw, General) on Kijiji (Canada) are priced high in my area.

I should have mentioned that you could check out CPO Outlets as they have a Bosch 4100-10 with stand for $599. or a 4100-RT (no stand) reconditioned for $349.

https://www.cpooutlets.com/on/deman...-Show?q=table saw&srchSrc=br&fq=brand:"Bosch"


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

I have the 4100...
and it to be applauded...


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## kp91 (Sep 10, 2004)

Reaxx not available in the US anymore (thanks, SawStop…..)

I have an older Craftsman Hybrid, like the Grizzly it has the enclosed base, and I love it. It's over 400 lbs, it came with a big table extension on the right hand side and I added a deep outfeed table. Needless to say, it doesn't get moved often, and takes up a lot of floor space.

I hadn't seen this grizzly (I don't need a TS right now...) but it looks like a nice saw


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## CharleyL (Feb 28, 2009)

The big things to look for in portable saws are "will it take a full dado blade stack", "are the miter slots the full standard dimension of 3/4 X 3/8", and "is the arbor shaft 5/8" diameter"? Most won't take a full dado stack, and few have accurate standard 3/4 X 3/8 miter slots, although some are close, but not a proper fit for a standard miter gauge bar. 

Most of these saws use a high speed drill type motor that screams when it's running and none of these saws seem to have any really good saw dust control. It is possible to cut dados with routers, so having dado capability isn't a deal breaker, but it's a nice feature. A Ryobi BT-3000 saw that I once used would take about a half stack of dado blades, so 3/8" dados were possible with it, but it sure did scream because of the type motor in it. It didn't even have a miter slot, so commonly available jigs couldn't be used on it without extensive modification. I've heard that the present DeWalt saws have inaccurately sized miter slots, so again, available jigs won't work well on them.

Older "Contractor Saws" have motors hanging out the back and these motors are much quieter induction motors with better speed control at the proper rated blade speeds, but none seem to have any good method of controlling saw dust issues, but all of these that I've seen can take a full dado blade stack. Be careful to avoid the pre 1950's saws with 1/2" arbor sizes, because finding blades for them is now nearly impossible. You can get bushings to make 5/8 arbor blades work, but they are hard to keep in place when changing blades and get lost in the saw dust easily. 

The older Delta Contractor Saws use a specially made motor that produces 1.5 hp on 120 volt power to keep it's running current rating below the common 15 amp rating of construction site circuit power, but will produce a full 2 hp when connected to 240 volt power. All have 5/8" arbors and can take full dado stacks. The Delta 34-444 model that I found for my son has proven to be every bit as accurate and capable as my Unisaw once we cleaned it up and calibrated it. Any one of the 34-4__ series seems to be the same saw with tiny year to year changes. I think they incremented the model number each year that they were in production, so any one of them should prove to be a good and accurate saw once cleaned up and calibrated. 

I have no experience with the newer Bosch Contractor Type Portable saws, but other's recommendations on them would have me leaning toward one of them if I wanted to buy a new portable saw. The included folding stand is a nice feature in this saw too.

Charley


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

I'd be inclined toward the Grizzly hybrid. I have a Laguna and really like using it, and it's very close to the Grizzly design. I'm not really much of a fan of contractor saws, and yet, would not be unhappy with the Bosch 4100.


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

CharleyL said:


> You can get bushings to make 5/8 arbor blades work, but they are hard to keep in place when changing blades and get lost in the saw dust easily.


Things like that are the reason I keep a large speaker magnet on a string in the shop.


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## kp91 (Sep 10, 2004)

JOAT said:


> Things like that are the reason I keep a large speaker magnet on a string in the shop.


Hard drive magnets work well for that also, and are a tad smaller


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## qulevrius (Mar 18, 2019)

Based on what I learned so far about the R4512, it’s a hybrid saw masquerading as a contractor type. At a price point of <$700, it’s impossible to beat.

The high points are belt drive, iron cast table with extension wings, full length 5/8” arbor, under 300 lbs weight, portability, lifetime service (if bought at HD) and, of course, the price tag. The low points would be the common issues people complain about, such as getting a lemon with uneven table, 3-wheel system, sloppy fence and the dust collection isn’t the greatest. I can live with the wheels (don’t need them TBH, not planning to move the saw around) and the fence since I’ll change it to the W1410 anyway, but will definitely bring a straight edge to the store for checking the table before buying. Plus, as opposed

I thought that perhaps someone has/had it and could provide some 1st hand perspective.


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## ger21 (Feb 10, 2019)

I'd also go with the Grizzly, if you can swing it.


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

I vote for the Grizz too. They are a nice shop piece.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

qulevrius said:


> B...but will definitely bring a straight edge to the store for checking the table before buying.


I got a bowed wing on my Laguna, and they replaced the whole darn saw. Drove to thier warehouse and they had a new saw all setup. Brought out a stainless steel machined straight edge and feeler gauges. One spot was out fifteen thousandths, which to all intents and purposes is considered flat. So pack along some feeler gauges too.


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## CharlesWebster (Nov 24, 2015)

qulevrius said:


> The more I learn, the more I realize how little I know. So, in line with shopping for a new fence and after much deliberation and soul searching, I came to the realization that it is necessary to get a new saw. In particular, I’ve been looking into contractor and hybrid models and for my budget, the top picks would be Ridgid R4512 and Grizzly 0771Z.
> 
> I’m leaning more towards the Ridgid since it’s readily available at a big orange store, about 30% cheaper than the Grizzly and easier to pay off; there are certain things I’ve read about it that concern me somewhat, but I’d like some input from the community first.
> 
> ...


I love my Grizzly 0771Z! I share my shop with a contractor and between us we use the he** out of that saw. It stays in adjustment, the stock fence is accurate and easy to adjust, and the price was right for me. I'm not a fan of Rigid tools in general, so...


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## sgcz75b (Jan 8, 2019)

I have the Bosch 4100-10. No real complaints though it has an aluminum, not cast iron table which I would much prefer.

It's very easy to move about on its stand. Easy to set up, and I've improved the dust collection by using an old photochemical developing tray secured with bungee straps under the motor area. It's wedged up tight so I get about 90% of the dust that falls below the table.

It's accurate, and I have zero clearance inserts for 10" regular and thin kerf blades and 7-1/4" blades.

Having said all that, I'm looking for a Grizzly cabinet saw with a 3 hp motor and keep the Bosch for outside building projects.

In your case though, I would opt for the Grizzly.


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## mgmine (Jan 16, 2012)

Let be the naysayer. Stay away from anything and everything with the Grizzly name on it. Grizzly is basically Harbor Freight with a better advertising firm. You will be much better off in the long run on spending more for what is basically the most important tool you will ever buy. Decide if you want a contractor type saw or a cabinet type. They both do the same only the cabinet style will be more powerful, can handle bigger jobs and will certainly look better in the shop. The downside is the size and price but if you get a good saw it will last a lifetime and when ready to sell it will bring a much higher percentage of its original cost. If you can live with a contractor style then look for a cast iron Craftsman from the 70's or 80's with a 1 hp belt driven motor. You can pick one up for around $150.00 about what they cost new 40 years ago. A better choice would be a Delta Uni-Saw of the same era which can be had for about $700.Better yet a Powermatic 66 from the 90's for about 1,100 or 3/4 of what it cost new. If you really want a Grizzly then you should be able to pick up a 10-year-old Grizzly cabinet for about $400, a fraction of what it cost new or a contractor saw for about $125.00. You can't go wrong with quality but you can go wrong with choosing based on looks which is what Grizzly is very good at selling. Let the flames begin.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

If the saw is mechanically sound, then it's all about how well you set it up. I think it's wise to take a straight edge along to check out your saw's top before you buy it. That means getting the display model, which often are not well set up, and sometimes missing parts. You're probably going to get one in a shipping crate. If you check out the table and wings before assembling, and something's off, you'll find it easier to return it if necessary. One of the reasons I went with Laguna is that they insist that the Taiwanese "rest" the cast iron for at least 6 months before milling it. They also have really heavy duty trunions. If money were an issue when I bought it, I'd probably have gone with the Grizzly, which I'd considered at the time. 

Rigid had a very nice middle sized, 6 inch jointer that I looked at long and hard. Reviews were really good, but I recall signing a new client and suddenly could afford the PowerMatic jointer. 

I do remember how great it felt to finally have some top notch tools in my shop.


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## Guitfiddle (Dec 14, 2014)

I replaced my old Craftsman (1980 model) contractor saw about 3 - 4 years ago with a Ridgid R4512 and never regretted it. Huge improvement on everything from having dust collection(compared to none), better fence, less vibration compared to the Craftsman. Plus additional features like portable base and Riving knife! 
I could not afford the higher end saws and also I am not a professional woodworker - I do quality work but it is a hobby-not my income. If it was my business, that would be a different story and would definitely go for a higher end saw.
But if your needs are not professional in nature I think you would be happy with the 
Ridgid.
With that said, my saw is the only Ridgid tool I own. Most of my small power tools and routers are Bosch which I am also happy with.


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## billyjim (Feb 11, 2012)

I also have the Bosch 4100 and I have absolutely no complaints. Like Vince I took mine off of the gravity rise stand and built my own cabinet for it. I actually sold the stand for $125 which made the saw price even cheaper. I don't think you would be unhappy with the 4100.


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## mjadams61 (Dec 24, 2015)

I too am looking at a larger table saw ( I have the rigid R4516) and been looking at the R4512 but also Delta 36-725. Both look good and are able to move around since I have a small shop and I can park them against the wall and out of the way. The reviews on the delta and the rigid are about the same more good than bad and Lowes in my area carries Delta and it is cheaper. And having using Deltas Unisaws in the past and with no problems and with straight cuts I would not hesitate in buying a Delta


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## Dr Neon (Apr 15, 2010)

Shopping for a new Table Saw.
I bought an old Emerson Craftsman unit several years ago for $50. The top and frame were intact, with no noticeable play. That leaves a lot of money for upgrades. A 2 hp 240 volt motor for starters, with a linked belt.
The base was given to a 6" belt sander rig, and I built a wood base, enclosed, and with a drop-down door for sawdust removal on the front. The cast iron top is perfect, with 3/4" X 3/8" miter channels. Wings are cast iron as well. Found a Vega fence (originally on a Powermatic) for another $50. Keep your eyes on places like Craigslist, especially near larger cities. We are all builders, in some fashion. I doubt that I have much more than $200 in the saw, and it cuts to accuracy in the few hundredths of an inch.


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## Flipsaw (Mar 11, 2016)

I have the Delta 36-725 and it has been working well. I went with that over the Rigid because of the better reviews and comparisons between the two.


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## qulevrius (Mar 18, 2019)

Thanks all, your input is greatly appreciated. After discussing the purchase with the lady, I’m afraid I’ll have to take a rain check on buying a new toy. That either leaves me with the job site one I have right now, or with a circular saw if I sell it. 

Unless I can find a good deal on a used one.


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## Ray Y (Jan 10, 2012)

Consider buying a used cabinet saw. I have 2 Unisaws. One was purchased at a school auction and had a touch of rust on the table surface which cleaned up nicely. It has the Jet-lock fence that is OK, but not great. It cost me $100. The other Unisaw was never used. The poor guy retired, bought the unisaw, started to set up shop and dropped dead. I saw it on Craigslist for $500 and after a week it went down to $250 and I bought it. It has the Unifence with extra long guides. My third saw is a Jet 10" contractor style that I stumbled onto at a barn sale. The guy was moving, had his truck completely packed full and had to be two states away the next day. For $150 I got the table saw, a very good condition 12" Delta Miter saw and out-feed roller support and a massive amount of cabinet grade plywood cut offs. For $500 bucks I have three saws each of which is far better than the wanna be pretenders. The deals are out there; go get them.


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## papawd (Jan 5, 2011)

I have Shopfox table saw in shop. I had the Ridgid portable a friend that I did odd jobs with had the Bosch portable table saw, after using both for a few years I would buy the Bosch hands down. The Shopfox in my shop, I like better than a friends Grizzly, I own both some Grizzly and Shopfox, I know both are owned by the same person but Grizzlies seem to have a better finish Shopfox seems to be a little heavier built


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

I picked up a used Craftsman 113 series with the cast iron wings off Craigslist. Only problem I've had with it was with the arbor pulleys coming loose allowing the belt to slip. New pulleys (different brand) cured that. Does what I need it to. I keep looking at a Grizz cabinet saw, but this one keeps chugging along.


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## ger21 (Feb 10, 2019)

> The other Unisaw was never used. The poor guy retired, bought the unisaw, started to set up shop and dropped dead. I saw it on Craigslist for $500 and after a week it went down to $250 and I bought it. It has the Unifence with extra long guides.


That's close to winning the Lotto. An unused Unisaw today would probably easily sell for $1200 or more. Even old beat up Unisaws will easily sell for $500-$750. And depending on where you are in the country, they can be very rare.

I just checked Craigslist in the Detroit Area, and there are 4 Unisaws. Prices are $500, $600, $900, and $1200.

The $500 saw is about 40 years old. The other three are 20-30 years old.

Both the $500 and $600 saws have the cheap fence. The more expensive saws have Unifences.

I bought my Unisaw new about 25 years ago, for $1600. Looks like I could sell it today for $800-$1000.

Having said that, if it were me, I'd definitely look for a used saw, if you can wait for a good deal. But don't be surprised if you are waiting for a year or more.

Or just looked for any used table saw. You might find that Ridgid for half the price of a new one. You never know.


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## qulevrius (Mar 18, 2019)

Well, as many have suggested, I started looking for an old, circa 70s-80s saw. Not even a week in, this is what I find on local CL:










The seller was practically giving it away, for $50. With original taper jig, wobbling dado set + throat plate and a few (crappy) blades. The table flatness is within 0.25mm (0.0098”) R to L, which is acceptable. The saw needs some moderate restoration to remove the rust, the casters need some serious work (or to be replaced altogether), the extension wings need adjusting, the fence will definitely get replaced and the bevel pulley handle is broken. But for the price, I feel like it’s a great find.

Any tips on this particular saw ?


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Looks interesting. Probably worth $50 in scrap metal. There have been a few posts over the past few years on resurecting an old saw. Maybe someone here can point to some of them. In the end, each one of them wound up with a very nice tool.


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

qulevrius said:


> Well, as many have suggested, I started looking for an old, circa 70s-80s saw. Not even a week in, this is what I find on local CL:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## ger21 (Feb 10, 2019)

I started with an old Craftsman contractor saw. After adding a Vega fence (that cost more than the saw), it was a good saw for many years.

On any inexpensive saw, the fence makes all the difference.


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## qulevrius (Mar 18, 2019)

ger21 said:


> I started with an old Craftsman contractor saw. After adding a Vega fence (that cost more than the saw), it was a good saw for many years.
> 
> On any inexpensive saw, the fence makes all the difference.




I have the Shop Fox W1410 I plan installing on it. But not before the C-man is taken apart, cleaned, polished & put back together. One thing that worries me somewhat is that the arbor shaft and nut have damaged threads, hopefully I can tap & die it. Also, the motor slightly squeaks when slowing down, probably needs sawdust blown out & lubricated.


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## ger21 (Feb 10, 2019)

> One thing that worries me somewhat is that the arbor shaft and nut have damaged threads, hopefully I can tap & die it.


How bad is it? It's probably a left hand acme type thread. Not sure if you'll be able to find a die to match.


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## MikeMa (Jul 27, 2006)

I have a similar saw, and been using it for nearly 10 years now. One of the first things I did was put a new fence on it. It has served me well.


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## qulevrius (Mar 18, 2019)

ger21 said:


> How bad is it? It's probably a left hand acme type thread. Not sure if you'll be able to find a die to match.




Not quite stripped, but damaged enough that changing blades is a challenge. I’ve looked up the assemblies for sale, there are some on eBay if nothing else works.

Upd: Gonna be an easy fix, it’s a regular 5/8” right hand thread. The arbor nut from my Delta screws on it just fine (so it’s actually just the threads on the original nut which are bad), I’ll just buy one.


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## CharleyL (Feb 28, 2009)

If it's a right tilt saw you need a left hand threaded nut. If a left tilt saw you need a right hand threaded nut. They need to self tighten when power is applied to the saw. The wrong thread direction will cause the nut to loosen when power is applied, so they design the saws this way for safety reasons. Acme threads are commonly used on the better table saw arbors. Make certain you which is needed before you order it. The left 5/8-12 left hand Acme arbor nuts are more expensive than you would expect. Be prepared for the sticker shock. The one that I bought for my right tilt Unisaw was almost $25

Charley


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## qulevrius (Mar 18, 2019)

CharleyL said:


> If it's a right tilt saw you need a left hand threaded nut. If a left tilt saw you need a right hand threaded nut. They need to self tighten when power is applied to the saw. The wrong thread direction will cause the nut to loosen when power is applied, so they design the saws this way for safety reasons. Acme threads are commonly used on the better table saw arbors. Make certain you which is needed before you order it. The left 5/8-12 left hand Acme arbor nuts are more expensive than you would expect. Be prepared for the sticker shock. The one that I bought for my right tilt Unisaw was almost $25
> 
> Charley




It’s a left tilt and the arbor nut is 5/8”-11 tpi, same as my jobsite. I was able to screw on the jobsite saw arbor nut with no effort and it holds well. I saw the prices on these arbor nuts, anywhere between $13 to $20. Checked HD’s website and they have these hex nuts for $0.38, I’ll go check it out.


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## ger21 (Feb 10, 2019)

It's pretty hard to damage an arbor. I've only seen it happen by repeatedly over-tighting the nut, using two wrenches. 
The arbor nut only need to be lightly tightened with a wrench on the nut, and holding the blade still with your hand.


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## qulevrius (Mar 18, 2019)

ger21 said:


> It's pretty hard to damage an arbor. I've only seen it happen by repeatedly over-tighting the nut, using two wrenches.
> The arbor nut only need to be lightly tightened with a wrench on the nut, and holding the blade still with your hand.




Judging by the overall state of tool, I’m inclined to believe that it’s a case of utter neglect. The saw looks like it’s never been cleaned or maintained since it left the store, so it’s entirely possible that the previous owner was trying to force the nut through the gunk and rust and ended up chewing up the threads.


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## jfacteau (Dec 10, 2006)

*Table saw*

I have the 10" Jet with the sliding table and have no regrets at all, wire it over to 220volt if you have the option, the saws start up much better.


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## Roger Leclercq (Jan 28, 2009)

I have a 80's version Craftsman 113 series they were made by Emerson Electric. Home Depot (Ridgid) bought Emerson I built mine into a custom cabinet and use a Incra Fence system and love it. When looking at the old Craftsman look for the motor that can be converted to 220v. It was explained to me by a electrical engineer that it doubles the torque by hitting at two phase angles. It sure worked on my old radial arm saw. When I used to cut anything over a 2x4 it used to stall.After I converted it it would cut a 2x12 and wouldn't even slow down it was almost scary. My table saw seems to handle anything i throw at it. The Incra Fence is so accurate and so repeatable I would buy another one if I ever bought another saw. Here is a picture of my setup left to right (Stockroom 24" sander-Table Saw-Enclosed Router Table)It has 17 deep drawers on the front and one on the back for the spare sandpaper rolls as well as dust collection.


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## ecozort (Feb 4, 2012)

I just purchased a grizzly,G1023RL and I could not be happier with it. I realize this is a bigger machine than you are investigating but if the quality of the 0771 is similar to the quality of the 1023 you'll be pleased.


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## grbmds (Mar 14, 2019)

What you buy and how much you spend on a table saw depends on what you plan to use it for, really. For example, I use a Festool track saw/MFT table combo for almost all crosscuts as I've found that I get the best accuracy and precision with this setup. I still own a job site saw for rips as most of my rips aren't long boards and it is easier and more accurate to rip on a table saw. However, between the track saw, table, and job site saw, I have as much or more money sunk into the equipment as it would cost to buy a table saw like you are considering. However, I want the flexibility to be able to move the table saw out of the way in my shop when I need to.

If you want a table saw that is good for essentially all table saw jobs, crosscutting, ripping, dadoing, box joints, etc. then I would get the most substantial saw you can afford. Also consider how good it is rated by users for dust collection, power, and accuracy. Regardless, most saws don't come with the best miter gauges and you may well have to invest in an upgraded after market miter gauge.


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## gdonham1 (Oct 31, 2011)

The original post was about what saw to buy. First priority should be to get a good saw. Second priority is to get a safe saw. The answer to both of those priorities is a SawStop. They make contractor and cabinet versions. I have a Powermatic 66 that was made just before the PM2000 came out. I love the saw but if it disappeared for some reason I would get a SawStop cabinet saw.

You can put a price on the saw but your personal safety is priceless. If you cut off your fingers it would be hard to get much use out of your saw after that.

As Ben Franklin said "A stitch in time saves nine". Hopefully you would be lucky if you got stitches and not a total loss of finger(s).

Some of the old timers with stumps instead of fingers would probably advise on the SawStop for a saw purchase.

There is no denying that Bosch, Ridgid and others make good saws but can you make the argument about safety for those saws compared to SawStop.


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## ger21 (Feb 10, 2019)

> First priority should be to get a good saw. Second priority is to get a safe saw.


One could argue that a table saw is only as safe as it's user.

And you can also argue that if it weren't for SawStops legal tactics, all other saws would be much safer. Many people despise Sawstop for that reason.

Over the years, I've seen a lot of forum posts about table saw injuries. With a large portion of those, the user actually reaches into the blade. 
Paying attention, and using proper techniques could probably eliminate 90% or more of table saw injuries.


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## qulevrius (Mar 18, 2019)

To pitch onto this matter, I’d say that relying on your tool for safety is the worst thing to do. Sawstop came up with an excellent aid for increasing the safety level, but one can argue that it gives the user a sense of false security. On the other hand, a healthy respect for the tool and constant awareness of what it could do to you, is a very powerful deterrent.


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## CharleyL (Feb 28, 2009)

Sawstop saws don't prevent kick-backs either. There are many ways to injure yourself with a table saw if you don't follow good safety rules about their use. Having a Sawstop saw doesn't mean you can't get seriously hurt by using it. 

Charley


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## ger21 (Feb 10, 2019)

In 25 years of working in cabinet shops, the worst (only?) table saw injury I've seen was from kickback.
A 3/4"x3/4" piece of maple kicked back and went 3" into someone's stomach.


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## OldCurmudgeon (Feb 25, 2012)

Coming late to this party, I'm probably going to cause a furor... 

I have a DeWalt DWE7490X (a real contractor/jobsite saw, almost portable) with a stand, and put it on a rolling base. I got it when I had a tiny shop, but even in my much larger shop I'd rather not take up all the space with a cabinet saw. It is very accurate (contrary to what others might have experienced), has a good fence, can handle stacked dado blades, and has standard arbor and miter slots (Charley's criteria). It may not be able to handle full sheets of plywood, but I'm not a cabinet builder but a toy maker. When I need a full sheet cut, I get it done at the big box store so my saw doesn't need to handle those sizes. It was not too expensive and had served me well.


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## gdonham1 (Oct 31, 2011)

I cannot disagree with the fact that you have to use a tool properly and be careful when using a table saw. But even the most experienced and careful operator makes mistakes from time to time. My point about the SawStop is when you make a mistake you can get a scratch instead of a loss of a finger and/or fingers. Lets face it woodworking can be dangerous. You can get kick back from any saw but I still think for my money if I needed to buy a new saw I would get a SawStop. Their cabinet saw is a good saw that has excellent safety features. 

I am not telling anyone else how to spend their money but my money will go to SawStop should I ever need a replacement tablesaw. But having a Powermatic 66 I do not think I can ever wear it out. Only fire, flood or other physical damage will ever make the PM 66 unserviceable.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

According to reviews the SawStop is a good table saw but you have to be careful what you are sawing with it. I watched a video earlier today about making a miter sled for a saw and it used aluminum rulers mounted to it which were then cut to match the saw kerf. The presenter was using a SS saw and cautioned to turn the safety feature off before doing this cut as touching the aluminum would activate the brake, destroying it and the blade. I've seen the same cautions about sawing wet wood. That's a $200-300 ouch I'm guessing if you should forget. I'd rather just use good machine practices. And I'm not sure about the statement about experienced operators making mistakes. From my experience it's mostly a case of ignoring safety practices or just getting sloppy. I spent a number of years logging in BC forests and every time I got hurt I was doing something I knew I shouldn't have been doing. There are only very rare exceptions when that doesn't apply to the workshop as well.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> According to reviews the SawStop is a good table saw but you have to be careful what you are sawing with it. I watched a video earlier today about making a miter sled for a saw and it used aluminum rulers mounted to it which were then cut to match the saw kerf. The presenter was using a SS saw and cautioned to turn the safety feature off before doing this cut as touching the aluminum would activate the brake, destroying it and the blade. I've seen the same cautions about sawing wet wood. That's a $200-300 ouch I'm guessing if you should forget. I'd rather just use good machine practices. And I'm not sure about the statement about experienced operators making mistakes. From my experience it's mostly a case of ignoring safety practices or just getting sloppy. I spent a number of years logging in BC forests and every time I got hurt I was doing something I knew I shouldn't have been doing. There are only very rare exceptions when that doesn't apply to the workshop as well.


I’m surprised SawStops arbor isn’t bent after it self destructs the way it does. Maybe it is?


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Good point Rick. You have to wonder what something as violent as how that mechanism works does to the motor and frame.


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## qulevrius (Mar 18, 2019)

The project was put on hold due to various reasons, mainly because there are other, higher priority things to be done and because the arbor assy is FUBAR and needs to be replaced. Which is gonna set me back some $40, but I simply don’t have the time to deal with it right now. So I just keep cleaning up the table top periodically, to prevent it from rusting again.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## grbmds (Mar 14, 2019)

qulevrius said:


> The project was put on hold due to various reasons, mainly because there are other, higher priority things to be done and because the arbor assy is FUBAR and needs to be replaced. Which is gonna set me back some $40, but I simply don’t have the time to deal with it right now. So I just keep cleaning up the table top periodically, to prevent it from rusting again.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


For the future then ...? From my experience with tablesaws, you should buy a stationary saw if you can find the space in your shop and get a large tool into your shop (meaning down into a basement if that is where it is). Cabinet saws, hybrids, etc. are great saws and, these days, safer even without the SawStop blade brake. If you can afford it, have the space, and can get it into your shop, the Sawstop PCS is worth the money, is a high quality saw, will match performance with any similar saw plus it has the blade brake. No matter what anyone says, this added layer of safety is worth it.

If you can't find the space for a permanent place in your shop, then one of the job site saws really is a great option. I have the Sawstop jobsite saw and love the capability to fold it up and get it out of the way when its not currently being used. I do feel better knowing the saw won't cut my hand off if, after 40+ years of woodworking, I suddenly just lose m concentration. If you can't afford the Sawstop (and it is pricey), the other jobsite saws on stands are good saws also - Dewalt, Bosch, etc. The one problem with these saws for me is that the distance in front of the blade is short and this does sometimes create a problem starting a cut. There are ways around this but nothing beats having a regular saw with all the table space on top available for starting cuts, and for working with larger boards or sheets.

So, if you have the space and can afford it, go for a stationary saw, either hybrid or cabinet saw. That will give you the most use for the longest period.

And, as for those who wonder about the stress on a Sawstop arbor and/or motor when the blade brake trips . . . just remember, the goal is not to trip it so, the number of times it does trip should be minimal. I tripped mine once in 4 years. My goal is to never trip it again, but, if I do, I'll be glad I had it.


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## qulevrius (Mar 18, 2019)

grbmds said:


> For the future then ...? From my experience with tablesaws, you should buy a stationary saw if you can find the space in your shop and get a large tool into your shop (meaning down into a basement if that is where it is). Cabinet saws, hybrids, etc. are great saws and, these days, safer even without the SawStop blade brake. If you can afford it, have the space, and can get it into your shop, the Sawstop PCS is worth the money, is a high quality saw, will match performance with any similar saw plus it has the blade brake. No matter what anyone says, this added layer of safety is worth it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




For what it’s worth, the only reason I miss having a TS right now is the ease with which you can make long rips. I can do with a skilsaw everything that I needed from a TS, but it’s significantly more time consuming. It’s a matter of convenience. But since I don’t make a living off of woodworking, I can suck it up without a TS for a while.

P.S. SawStop is _way_ outside my budget.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Roger Leclercq said:


> I have a 80's version Craftsman 113 series they were made by Emerson Electric. Home Depot (Ridgid) bought Emerson I built mine into a custom cabinet and use a Incra Fence system and love it. When looking at the old Craftsman look for the motor that can be converted to 220v. It was explained to me by a electrical engineer that it doubles the torque by hitting at two phase angles. It sure worked on my old radial arm saw. When I used to cut anything over a 2x4 it used to stall.After I converted it it would cut a 2x12 and wouldn't even slow down it was almost scary. My table saw seems to handle anything i throw at it. The Incra Fence is so accurate and so repeatable I would buy another one if I ever bought another saw. Here is a picture of my setup left to right (Stockroom 24" sander-Table Saw-Enclosed Router Table)It has 17 deep drawers on the front and one on the back for the spare sandpaper rolls as well as dust collection.


Sweet setup, Roger! Can I play at your house?


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## gdonham1 (Oct 31, 2011)

Would you rather have your fingers or not, that is the bottom line for the SawStop. The kickback argument posted earlier seems to disqualify the SawStop because ANY saw can have a kickback. Additionally the ability to turn the safety feature off because of a special operation is certainly no argument against the overall safety of the saw. Additionally someone had brought up that SawStop protecting their intellectual property was also a black eye for SawStop. SawStop shopped their safety system to all the major manufacturers and none of them wanted it. So when SawStop invested their own money and made a successful product of course they should defend their ideas from being poached by Johnny come lately's. I cannot understand the resistance to a safety feature like SawStop has compared to other saws. I am not saying it is the only saw to buy but feature for feature is is comparable to anything else out there and certainly a lot safer by several orders of magnitude. Again I repeat do you want your fingers or not. Even the most highly rated crash automobiles still have to be driven safely. Because when you strap your family in for a ride to grandma house do you want a highly rated crash rating or a no star car and hope for the best if the two cars have the same price I would rather have the 5 star rating over the no star rating.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

@gdonham1 
Guy,I've responded in color. I'm assuming you really want to know what's behind the resistence. I'm not advocating for one view or another. 

...Would you rather have your fingers or not, that is the bottom line for the SawStop. protecting their intellectual property was also a black eye for SawStop.

Here you get into why the resistence. Economic issues aside for a moment, the aggressive attitude of the company's founder has generated most of the reluctance about their product.

SawStop shopped their safety system to all the major manufacturers and none of them wanted it. So when SawStop invested their own money and made a successful product of course they should defend their ideas from being poached by Johnny come lately's.

SawStop's licensing agreement was onerous and overpriced. It was designed so that it would give the company the competitive advantage. It was unworkable for a company to license the technology--which, by the way is pretty damn crude. It consists of using a well known touch sensing technology to trigger a shotgun shell to shove a bar into the blade's teeth and drop the blade out of the way. Currently, they are trying to argue that Bosch's non destructive approach to this safety feature violates their patent because it uses the touch technology, which they clearly do not own. The ability to detect the slight change in capacitance of a finger touch is long ago known and out of patent. So the company's legal strategy has delayed the implementation of other safety blade stops by competitors. This is something I prefer not to support, and the high price of SawStop products is how they finance their anti-user approach.

I cannot understand the resistance to a safety feature like SawStop has compared to other saws (I've detailed that above). 

I am not saying it is the only saw to buy but feature for feature is is comparable to anything else out there and certainly a lot safer by several orders of magnitude. Again I repeat do you want your fingers or not. Even the most highly rated crash automobiles still have to be driven safely. Because when you strap your family in for a ride to grandma house do you want a highly rated crash rating or a no star car and hope for the best if the two cars have the same price I would rather have the 5 star rating over the no star rating.

Your car analogy is flawed because the price of the two is NOT equal. The problem is compounded by the fact SawStop is more than double the price of many other comparable saws. As becomes obvious in this group, price is an issue. Maybe a full out shop needs to go for the SawStop for safety reasons, but I can't afford the luxury of paying for the owner's lawyer bills, and I'm not the only one here in that situation. Even when I was making good money, the price was more than I could manage--it would likely have included the cost of a divorce lawyer. 

For me, the use of sleds, Gripper, and using safe procedures is the most workable solution, and think I'm not alone here. Yeah, SawStop gear is really good stuff, very well made, probably up to PowerMatic quality. But Bosch, for example, has already surpased the safety feature with a non destructive method. Who knows what the other makers would do if SawStop stopped blocking the Bosch U.S.A. implementation with legal shenanigans. If Bosch finally wins, or the SawStop patent fully expires (except for the lawsuits, it already has expired), then I expect Bosch will license their method for far less to other saw manufacturers, or new methods will be invented, and we can all preserve our fingers.

Some would call SawStop's management greedy or evil and certainly not in the best interest of users.


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## ger21 (Feb 10, 2019)

> Would you rather have your fingers or not, that is the bottom line for the SawStop


That would imply that anyone not using a Sawstop will cut their fingers off. Most people never get injured while using a table saw.
For the last 25 years, I've worked in shops with 4 table saws, with no guards, and have only seen one injury, which was from a kickback.

Simply paying attention goes a long way to improving table saw safety. Learning how to properly use a table saw will also make it much safer.

I see a lot of table saw injuries on various woodworking forums. The majority are from people just not paying attention and reaching into the blade. Most if not all of the rest are from unsafe procedures.

Count me in the camp that would never buy a SawStop.


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## woodknots (Mar 7, 2012)

I think @DesertRatTom summed it perfectly and I couldn't agree more with his comments. And like Gerry, @ger21, I'm in the same camp and will never buy a Sawstop. I've been using table saws for a very long time, including an old Beaver from the mid 50s and have never had an accident, or lost a finger, for that matter. Safe practices and vigilance go a long way to prevent injuries. How many people know that you shouldn't give a child a plastic bag for fear that he/she will put it over their head and possibly suffocate. But manufactures still put that disclaimer on them. Not so much as a warning, but to avoid a lawsuit if/when it happens.

The inventor of the Sawstop was a patent lawyer - go figure.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

I’m waiting patiently for Router Stop :grin:


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

I just want to add that once a patent expires, then everyone is free to reinvent that wheel, even to merely duplicate the formerly patented device. Once several makers add their own method, it will be likely that ALL makers will be forced to add a device and OSHA will surely require it and the lawyers will line up to sue anyone who doesn't have it. But that hasn't happened because SawStop has, in effect, blocked the technology through legal challenges. Thus, SawStop is the safety standard in name only and are largely responsible for delaying what should have been a great innovation in safer power tools. 

I own a fair share of intellectual property and therefore deeply respect the laws that protect it. But the SawStop management has used it as a weapon to the detriment of woodworker safety. They tried to force regulations requireing that ALL tool makers include blade stops, but then made it economically unviable for other firms to use it. That is a manipulation that is unacceptable--a form of monopoly, the prevention of which is why all patents expire in 17 years.


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## Roger Leclercq (Jan 28, 2009)

SawStop got their start from a Stella awards lawsuit where worker was trying to freehand rip a piece of flooring without a fence or Guard and with blade at full height SawStop President Stephen Gass testified saying he had tried to sell his technology to Ryobi and they wouldn't buy it (It would have tripled the price of their saw) I wont buy one. I was taught that all power tools are out to get you and just when you think you are smarter than them they will get you.

https://www.finewoodworking.com/2010/05/03/more-details-on-the-carlos-osorio-tablesaw-lawsuit


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## grbmds (Mar 14, 2019)

I'm not really sure why the Sawstop topic always results in the same arguments and discussions, but . . . either you believe in buying the safest tools on the market (including high efficiency dust collection and low decibel ratings) or you don't. Whatever makes you feel comfortable and you can afford is what you should do. I personally have always believed that, assuming you can afford it, buying tools with the best dust collection, lowest decibel ratings, and safest features is always the best decision, assuming the tools themselves don't suffer in quality. With Sawstop, for a woodworker who really makes furniture and cabinets, etc. as a hobby, the Sawstop saws are as good as the other cabinet saws on the market and are about the same price as the Powermatics, Deltas, etc. So why not get the added measure of safety.

In the end, Steve Gass was only trying to protect his intellectual property and his business. Is he a jerk? Probably. Could he have sold his saw brake product cheaper to the saw manufacturers? Maybe, but the others are just as much at fault as he is. They are just out to make money also and they weren't going to raise the price of their saws just to make them safer.

In the end, if you want a safe saw that is still a great saw. Sawstop is that product. Should you always use that saw safely? Sure. However, we are all human and, as we get older, we do tend to lose concentration periodically and possible even make more mistakes. Why take a chance that one of those times will result in a lost finger just because you don't like Steve Gass (who, by the way, I don't believe even owns Sawstop anymore)/


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Randy; as has already been pointed out, Sawstop technology is deeply flawed. Not necessarily from the perspective of 'safety' but rather it's alleged tendency to self destruct if the operator tries to cut wet or treated wood ie conductive material. Pretty expensive mistake. No thanks; I cut a lot of material which might trigger it. Not interested. I'll just use my Shark guard.


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## grbmds (Mar 14, 2019)

DaninVan said:


> Randy; as has already been pointed out, Sawstop technology is deeply flawed. Not necessarily from the perspective of 'safety' but rather it's alleged tendency to self destruct if the operator tries to cut wet or treated wood ie conductive material. Pretty expensive mistake. No thanks; I cut a lot of material which might trigger it. Not interested. I'll just use my Shark guard.


Deeply flawed in what way? The goal is to NOT trip the brake. If you do you are doing something not proscribed either by the saw's safety mechanism, have made a mistake, or maybe doing something that requires a second thought. The electronics can be turned off if cutting wet wood or if you feel it's even a possibility of hitting metal like a nail. I think the instructions were quite clear on that.

As I said, though, all tools are not for all people. Don't wish to argue the point anymore. Tools should be used the way they are designed. This one isn't designed for cutting wet would without bypassing the circuit. Sorry it didn't work for you. It does work extremely well for me.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Randy, once again, if the lawsuits cease, there are other safety systems in the works. Had not the management of SawStop been so short sighted, those innovations would likely be further along than they are now, and that competition would begin to lower prices. 

I agree with you, that if the mechanism is something you want, then get it, and the saws are excellent tools. I'll be glad when something like it, but non destructive, is in every saw. The instant stopping power of a shotgun shell should set a disk brake as fast as a pin thrust into the teeth. I am glad for you, Randy, that you can afford to have what you want.


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## ger21 (Feb 10, 2019)

> I'm not really sure why the Sawstop topic always results in the same arguments and discussions,


Because you say things like this:


> Would you rather have your fingers or not, that is the bottom line for the SawStop


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## Hoey (Feb 8, 2019)

Saw this on the internet the other day, don't know what's the story there!


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## grbmds (Mar 14, 2019)

Gerry,

Seems like you mixed quotes from 2 different posts as I didn't say what it appears you attributed to me. For me, Sawstop just gives me an extra layer of safety and peace of mind. Others don't feel that way. That's what's great about our country and democracy; we have choices.


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

Hoey said:


> Saw this on the internet the other day, don't know what's the story there!


Maybe the Doctor gave him a prescription.
Just saying,
Herb


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Hoey said:


> Saw this on the internet the other day, don't know what's the story there!


Makes one wonder alright .

I have to say one thing about sawstop, I like their dust collection hood. I actually bought it and the piping a year ago and want to cut and modify it in order for it to fit my riving knife .


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## ger21 (Feb 10, 2019)

> as I didn't say what it appears you attributed to me.


I quoted your post, and then you say you didn't write it???


I quoted a question from one of your posts, and the answer was what you posted in a different post. Simple.


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