# Climb Cutting Continued



## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

We had a discussion here, a couple of weeks ago, re *trapping material between a fence and the bit*, and I believe climb cutting was also in the mix.
Well today I ran into the gentleman who(m) I had mentioned had designed a jig for machining thin strips of Cedar for strip boat building. He, another boatbuilder and I had a great chat about this issue.
First, let me clarify. He has run thousands of meters of Cedar and he says _not without incident._ He never stands in line with the direction the material might kickback...it has happened, but extremely rarely and only with short lengths. The majority of his raw planks are in the neighborhood of 18' - 20' long. The strips final dimensions are 1/4" x 3/4", and the climb cut leaves them as smooth as a baby's bottom.
He and the other boat-builder both gang saw their planks using 7 1/4" thin kerf blades and fender washers as spacers. I didn't ask but I think they were using three blades(?) on the saw arbor..
Following the ripping, they run the final 'planed' edge with the aforementioned 'trapped material' jigs.
What I took away was that as long as you recognize the potential risk and design accordingly, it's a very productive technique, but it's not for everyone and most definitely not for beginners!
https://oysterbayboats.weebly.com/launchings-and-blog/category/building pictures

I asked him if he had a pic of the jig but unfortunately not...


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

If you worked your way back through that link you'll have seen this pic which is the best shot of the strips being installed using fishing line, (a lot of it!!) to fix the strips in place until the glue dries.


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## sunnybob (Apr 3, 2015)

This is the problem with internet and videos. An experienced worker shows how he overcomes an obstacle and a 1000 complete beginners go out and copy it without ever questioning if its appropriate for someone with zero skill levels.

I dont see an easy answer, other than letting Darwins law prevail.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

I did post a warning, Bob... 
But yeh, no argument from me!

I thought it would be interesting to fill in some background from where we left the previous discussion; I might have left the earlier impression that glass bottles never break.


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## sunnybob (Apr 3, 2015)

Good grief Dan, its 4am your time, why arent you asleep?


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

sunnybob said:


> Good grief Dan, its 4am your time, why aren't you asleep?


22:46 his time...


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Stick's on it. 11:17PM my time here on the Coast as I type this. We're still on Daylight Savings Time. 
But I get the message; I'm off to see some sheep...


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## sunnybob (Apr 3, 2015)

whoa, hang on.
I'm on GMT plus 2 hours.

Dan says he's in canada, which is GMT minus 4 to 8 depending which coast.

here now is 10.19 am, that puts canada 6am to 2 am.

Where did you get evening from?


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## Garyk (Dec 29, 2011)

Knew a guy in Round-O SC who used a similar technique for strip canoes. The jig that impressed me the most was his setup for making tongue & groove strips. He used a double sided jig with handheld routers (laminate routers) . Running the strips on one side produced the tongue and on the other side for the grove. Had some pictures but they are lost in the jumble. His stuff was collectors items and never saw the water. $600 dollar paddles and canoes upwards of 30 grand. He was a small time operation UNTIL he met Sam Maloof in CA.(of chair making fame) who connected him to the "money" crowd. Once he had a canoe on exhibit at a big NY gallery he was on his way. He was a crew member on a Boomer (Navy missile sub) until he hit the big time and Sam talked him into early retirement, imagine that. 

If I was as good as folks I have met along life's path I would -------? Oh well, I'm not so I'll keep buying those lottery tickets. The moral of this story is for you younger guys to think outside of the box and maybe one day you will arrive at that million dollar level.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

When milling metal on a milling machine climb cutting is commonly done but the work is firmly attached to the cross slide table which has a gear reduction feed mechanism that is capable of resisting the bits force to self feed.

Years ago I took a dead Freud router and gutted it and attached a 1hp motor via pulleys and belt to it and set it up as a horizontal router. The table I made for the setup allows above or below the bit use which proved really handy for making picture frames. But the first time I tried feeding wood below the bit I failed to consider which direction the bit was traveling in relation to the wood and it took my work and shot it across the shop. Right to left with the wood under the bit was climb cutting. Luckily I was standing in front of my Rube Goldberg setup and the wood didn't hit anything important plus the bit was only turning at around 10,000 rpm instead of twice that speed so not as fast as it could have been traveling.

Dan there might be a practical way for those guys to rout the strips without climb cutting. In a table the rotation is counter-clockwise looking down on the bit. So if they put the fence on the opposite side of the bit and held the work against it with featherboards right to the edge of the bit and another right after the bit so that the rotation couldn't pull the board into the bit they would still be able to feed into the rotation and not with the rotation. I don't know what that would do to finish but it would be much safer.


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## TenGees (Sep 12, 2012)

I was cutting a stopped slot for a bolt and it wasn't quite wide enough. So I bumped the fence and went to do another pass. Unfortunately I bumped the fence the wrong way. Fortunately I wasn't hurt.

So I'm not too crazy about trapping the work between the fence and bit or climb cutting. If I was to do it, first I'd try to figure out another way or at least use feather boards and stuff.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Charles, it's like talking to you guys who _won't_ use a blade guard, eh? 
As I said these guys have run thousands of meters of material but _I'm_ not recommending their technique (hi, Bob!); I'm just saying that it's being done out there. The major aspect, other than the climb cutting, was the trapped material.
These boatbuilders are doing it with the full knowledge that it's inherently dangerous and their jigs address that risk. And again, _not for the inexperienced routerologist._.


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

DaninVan said:


> Charles, it's like talking to you guys who _won't_ use a blade guard, eh?
> As I said these guys have run thousands of meters of material but _I'm_ not recommending their technique (hi, Bob!); I'm just saying that it's being done out there. The major aspect, other than the climb cutting, was the trapped material.
> These boatbuilders are doing it with the full knowledge that it's inherently dangerous and their jigs address that risk. And again, _not for the inexperienced routerologist._.


This is the way we cut our fire wood when I was young. Only difference was the saw was on the back of the tractor. My Dad was the sawyer, I was the off bearer. 48" dia. saw blade, no guard, don't know what the rpm was but the saw was really singing. We cooked,and heated with wood,so we went thru at least 15 cords a year and had a reserve of at least 10 cords drying for the next year.






Herb


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

My daughter's friend's farmer-dad put a pitch fork through his foot a couple of years ago; almost lost it to gas gangrene. Sh*t happens. Recognizing the risk is half the battle.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

DaninVan said:


> Charles, it's like talking to you guys who _won't_ use a blade guard, eh?


Ok, guilty but I have plans to install one. Not to protect me from the blade but to protect me from the sawdust it throws. My old Unisaw isn't that easy to install it on and I do far too many blind cuts to have it on there. I am fully aware of what the blade can do and take steps to prevent problems as you say these guys do.



> As I said these guys have run thousands of meters of material but _I'm_ not recommending their technique (hi, Bob!); I'm just saying that it's being done out there. The major aspect, other than the climb cutting, was the trapped material.
> These boatbuilders are doing it with the full knowledge that it's inherently dangerous and their jigs address that risk. And again, _not for the inexperienced routerologist._.


You also said "not without mishap". And that's the problem. Back when I first moved here there were still quite a few small semi portable sawmills around and there had been lots more before that. Almost every sawyer I ever met was missing fingers. I survived 25 years logging, much of it falling trees with a chainsaw which WCB said was one of the most dangerous jobs on the planet. But I only just survived it and I have some aches and pains that will never go away because I did some things that I knew better than to do because it was expedient at the time. All those sawyers missing fingers would tell you the same thing. There is always the chance that one of those times that it doesn't go well that the consequences may be really severe.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

*Yours Truly*

This is me (bearded dude) at the annual Wood Expo, yesterday. all of the local wood workers get together and host this public event. Lots of really talented vendors!
Wood Expo | Sunshine Coast Community Forest


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

Yowzer! There is some cool projects there Dan. Thanks for posting.
Herb


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

*.*



Herb Stoops said:


> Yowzer! There is some cool projects there Dan. Thanks for posting.
> Herb


Oversight on my part, Herb; I forgot to take my own camera. There was some incredible work there.
One guy in the guild was commissioned to build a lightweight fake grand piano for a movie set. It had a removable fake keyboard that could have as a substitute a real digital piano slipped into place.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

"You also said "not without mishap". And that's the problem. Back when I first moved here there were still quite a few small semi portable sawmills around and there had been lots more before that. Almost every sawyer I ever met was missing fingers. I survived 25 years logging, much of it falling trees with a chainsaw which WCB said was one of the most dangerous jobs on the planet. But I only just survived it and I have some aches and pains that will never go away because I did some things that I knew better than to do because it was expedient at the time. All those sawyers missing fingers would tell you the same thing. There is always the chance that one of those times that it doesn't go well that the consequences may be really severe."

Heh...one of the boatbuilders was telling us about a young woman sculptor friend who was doing very small strips using this process. She was well aware of the hazard and was herself protected, but the end wall of her studio, insulated but nor drywalled, had 'spears' sticking out of the insulation! These small strips were shattering and then being fired at the end wall. Yikes!!


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Charles; before you excommunicate me remember that I'm the one that pointed out the 'trapped material' hazard in that earlier thread.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

You'll never be excommunicated for having a different opinion. Being rude, combative, and using foul language are what is unacceptable. If we all agreed on everything it would be a pretty dull existence.

Any machine operation should start with a risk assessment. What are the risks? Are they acceptable? Are they manageable? Can they be mitigated? Can they be eliminated by using an alternate method? Maybe your friends have the risk figured out well enough to do what they are doing with an acceptable risk level. However, the woman you speak should probably have a better look at her risk level. Blowing pieces up at the router and shooting shards of it at high speed doesn't sound like a good plan. And she may have learned that method from your two friends. The problem is she may not understand the process as well and doesn't know what to look out for. It could be something simple like knowing which grain orientation to send through first which the average onlooker would never recognize.

When I worked for the FS I used to point out to my loggers that you could take a shortcut on something and the risk level might be 1 incident in 100,000 times of doing it. But for everything that you took a shortcut on could increase your chances exponentially of having an incident finally to the point that you were guaranteed to suffer one. Of course with logging the chances of it being a career or life ender was very high. The best policy is always just don't do it. There is almost always a safe way to do something. It only took me a couple of minutes to figure out a better way than your friends are using. Too often we settle for less.


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## Hypnotoad (Apr 17, 2018)

Herb Stoops said:


> This is the way we cut our fire wood when I was young. Only difference was the saw was on the back of the tractor. My Dad was the sawyer, I was the off bearer. 48" dia. saw blade, no guard, don't know what the rpm was but the saw was really singing. We cooked,and heated with wood,so we went thru at least 15 cords a year and had a reserve of at least 10 cords drying for the next year.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eY1_xcIKtpE
> 
> Herb


Seeing this takes me back, only the one my dear departed father in law had on his farm wasn't even bolted to the tractor, if the belt didn't scare you that saw blade jamming in the logs would. Don't know how many years he used it but lucks a fortune as he never had an accident with it.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

...


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## ranman (Oct 27, 2017)

I like you mentioning grain orientation Chuck as far as when doing a no-no operation.


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## ranman (Oct 27, 2017)

DaninVan said:


> ...


Wow Dan, that looks dangerous.
...Dad always said to never cut towards yourself, especially your face. :grin:
....and thanks for bringing this subject back up. 
Items I see as being dangerous would be skinny and thin materials, passing a wide but short (as in length) piece of material into the bit, as Chuck said, grain orientation.
That plus a lot of time and experience using power tools makes the "unsafe" operations safer than a novice could ever be capable of.
I probably broke my first (I mean _*my Dad's*_) drill bits about 5 or 6 years old. .....55 years later I break them far less often.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

"Wow Dan, that looks dangerous."
-Randy

The Inuit teach their little kids to eat with those SHARP ulus when they're small...(the kids not the ulus).
Seems crazy dangerous to us but we're from a different culture.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

"Dan says he's in canada.."
-Bob

Lol! Lost somewhere within 5 timezones. I've never been East past Toronto, and that's sort of 1/2 way across, and _that_ was a 5 week trip.
If you fly West from Ontario, you arrive back home on the West Coast more or less at the same time you left Ont.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

DaninVan said:


> "Wow Dan, that looks dangerous."
> -Randy
> 
> The Inuit teach their little kids to eat with those SHARP ulus when they're small...(the kids not the ulus).
> Seems crazy dangerous to us but we're from a different culture.


had...
note the had...
a GF that would slice bread against her chest slicing towards herself...
mother did it the same way...
man that use to bother me...


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

There are 6 time zones in Canada. UTC-3 through -7 (west coast) is the bulk of Canada but they set Newfoundland at UTC -2:30 instead of -2 otherwise they are just too far ahead for most of the rest of Canada. When I worked for an Esso agency in Alberta we had to have our orders into Esso's order system by about 10 in the morning because they were in New Brunswick and were just about ready to go home by then.


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## radios (Sep 30, 2009)

climb milling is only required for Aluminum since it's so soft and sticky that conventional milling leaves a rough edge as the Aluminum sticks to the mill, climb milling pushes that rough surface back into place.. I can't imagine wood being like this!..


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

It is not the rough surface,it is the concern of the bit grabbing and throwing the piece being cut.
Herb


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Isn't a metal milling operation always done with the material secured in a machinist's vice or similar? That's a bit (sorry, no pun intended) different than the wood operation.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Yes. If you could attach the wood to something similar then climb cutting would be no issue. The problem is not being able to resist the forces wanting to self feed. You can test the theory but running a board from left to right instead of the normal right to left. As long as it isn't trapped it won't get flung more than a foot roughly. The greatest risk is having it drag your hand into the bit if you can't stop it (and you are working on a narrow piece) so you just have to be prepared to let go before that can happen. Chances are you'll cut more wood off if you make a second pass, and maybe for a few more passes after that.

If you trap the piece between the bit and fence and you lose control then every time a cutter touches the wood it will advance the wood to the point where it moves away from the wood on the far side. Now imagine that happening 40,000 times a minute (for a 2 flute bit) and you can visualize what is going to happen to that piece of wood.


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