# Small box joint bit



## IC31 (Nov 16, 2012)

Is there a decent box joint bit available. I'm not looking to make drawers or large boxes, just small ones using 1/4" to 1/2" material. Ebay, MLCS Infinity and others show bits that are the type I'm looking for, but some of these, especially low buck I assume have their problems. I'm aware that backers and maybe a slider will probably be needed for any of these to lessen tearout. I've looked at the Freud blades and Incra jig and while probably great tools, 1/4 and 3/8 inch cuts arenot something I need (yet, anyhow). Before you ask, I do know the difference between a box and finger joint:laugh2:


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## Marco (Feb 21, 2009)

Freud and Whiteside are arguably the best and MLCS/lower ends the worst. If you are looking for quality....


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

Depends on how small you want them. A regular 1/8" wide table saw blade will work as well as a band saw. I have used both, the tablesaw ,both regular and thin kerf make a nice boxjoint. The bandsaw makes more of a "Comb" joint.
Herb


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

The fingers on a box joint are best made with a table saw and a backer. When you use a router bit you need a facer and a backer. The bit wants to tear out the right side on the way in and the left side on the way out.


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## PhilBa (Sep 25, 2014)

To the original question, a spiral bit (up or down) is somewhat better than a straight bit. As to the best brand, if you are doing no more than 10-20 boxes, most will be ok. Whiteside and Amana are better in terms of longer life and the ability to resharpen more (straights only, though). Freud is a reasonable compromise. Then Rockler. I'd put Yonico and MLCS at the next tier down and anything made of NoName Chinesium at the bottom. 

As to the best way to do box joints, they all work just fine if you use care. There really is no "best" way - the best is the one that works for you. I think my results back this point up.

I use an LS positioner to do mine on the router table with a straight bit. For hardwood and softwood, no fronter, just a backer needed. For plywood though, a front and back are needed, even for top quality baltic birch ply. That stuff splinters if you look at it sideways. The trick to avoiding chipout is to enter slowly. (there's a joke in there somewhere...). 
By the way, make sure you put your bit as far into the collet as you can (minus a tiny amount to avoid bottoming) - this will minimize runout that could make for an oversize cut and loose joints. I learned that the hard way - somewhere there's a box that is 1/2" smaller than I had planned.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

I tend to default to Freud. I would probably go with a down spiral. However, I really like using the ibox jig with a dado stack on the table saw. The workpiece tends to slip under the horizontal force of a router bit. A sandpaper face plus backing board will help with tearoug and slippage. For smaller joints, the dual blade setup the does both quarter and 3/8ths cuts is a very nice accessory, but pricey if you're not making many boxes.


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## IC31 (Nov 16, 2012)

Looks like the idea if stached rourt box joint bit has bit (groan) the dust. 
Soooo it looks like a box joint saw blade (have a dado blade abd maybe a good spiral router bit are in my future - then a home made jig or two.

Glad I decided to drop back in again after a two year sabbatical from making little pieces of wood from big pieces.

Thanks for all the good info and guidance


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## PhilBa (Sep 25, 2014)

If you are at all serious about making a lot of box joints, consider the Incra LS Positioner for your router table. It is one of the tools that I would replace even at full price in a heartbeat if it disappeared. Not only great for quickly making box joints but it's precision and repeatability make it a fantastic tool for the craftsman.


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## IC31 (Nov 16, 2012)

PhilBa said:


> If you are at all serious about making a lot of box joints, consider the Incra LS Positioner for your router table. It is one of the tools that I would replace even at full price in a heartbeat if it disappeared. Not only great for quickly making box joints but it's precision and repeatability make it a fantastic tool for the craftsman.


I saw that jig this afternoon while wandering the 'net. Super nice tool but waaaay too costly at about $300+ for my wallet these days. Thanks


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## Bstrom (Jan 2, 2020)

PhilBa said:


> To the original question, a spiral bit (up or down) is somewhat better than a straight bit. As to the best brand, if you are doing no more than 10-20 boxes, most will be ok. Whiteside and Amana are better in terms of longer life and the ability to resharpen more (straights only, though). Freud is a reasonable compromise. Then Rockler. I'd put Yonico and MLCS at the next tier down and anything made of NoName Chinesium at the bottom.
> 
> As to the best way to do box joints, they all work just fine if you use care. There really is no "best" way - the best is the one that works for you. I think my results back this point up.
> 
> ...


Love your work, Phil. That jewelry box Design is my next challenge - not too hard but definitely a challenge.


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## mgmine (Jan 16, 2012)

PhilBa said:


> If you are at all serious about making a lot of box joints, consider the Incra LS Positioner for your router table. It is one of the tools that I would replace even at full price in a heartbeat if it disappeared. Not only great for quickly making box joints but it's precision and repeatability make it a fantastic tool for the craftsman.


Totally in agreement and a great tool well worth the money. You might not have to spend this amount but a good one is not going to be cheap. The same goes for one that you would use with a table saw. An adjustable box joint jig is a good example of what not to try and make. You can easily spend a full afternoon and $20 or so dollars in parts only to end up with a complicated and useless jig. On the other hand, if you are satisfied with making only one size joint then you can make a perfectly acceptable jig in a few minutes out of a piece of scrap wood. If you need a different size then you make a new one just as quickly and cheaply. Youtube is full of ideas.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

The first shot shows how I normally make box joints. The second shot show a low cost bit that I bought to try, I've only made two boxes with it and was surprised at how good they turned out. The downside is the restricted height of the box.


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## IC31 (Nov 16, 2012)

harrysin said:


> The first shot shows how I normally make box joints. The second shot show a low cost bit that I bought to try, I've only made two boxes with it and was surprised at how good they turned out. The downside is the restricted height of the box.


I did a bit of a site search and found this - https://www.routerforums.com/general-routing/61545-box-joint-tear-out.html) which is a bit easier to understand how you made up your jig. Super easy and can be made up from odds and ends of odd pieces of wood that I have around the shop. I will beed a spiral router bit or two, probably down cut and give it a try on some scrap pine before dig out some black walnut that's been gathering dust for several years. I've also poked around You Tube and have found several videos to further understand the home made process though mostly using a table saw. The process is basically the same.

As I said above, I just can't justify the cost of that INCRA positioner - though if I win the lottery .....:happy:


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## Willji (Feb 28, 2020)

Nice work Phil!


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

IC31 said:


> I did a bit of a site search and found this - https://www.routerforums.com/general-routing/61545-box-joint-tear-out.html) which is a bit easier to understand how you made up your jig. Super easy and can be made up from odds and ends of odd pieces of wood that I have around the shop. I will beed a spiral router bit or two, probably down cut and give it a try on some scrap pine before dig out some black walnut that's been gathering dust for several years. I've also poked around You Tube and have found several videos to further understand the home made process though mostly using a table saw. The process is basically the same.
> 
> As I said above, I just can't justify the cost of that INCRA positioner - though if I win the lottery .....:happy:[/QUOTE;I didn't make the jig shown, I won it in a forum competition years ago. As you've said, one is easily made from almost scrap laying around the shop. The jig shown made many years ago and used a lot worked just as well. I sometimes used a spiral bit but found that any straight bit gave the same results. the jig itself could have acted as a backer but I soon started to use a separate backer.


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## IC31 (Nov 16, 2012)

harrysin said:


> IC31 said:
> 
> 
> > ;I didn't make the jig shown, I won it in a forum competition years ago. As you've said, one is easily made from almost scrap laying around the shop. The jig shown made many years ago and used a lot worked just as well. I sometimes used a spiral bit but found that any straight bit gave the same results. the jig itself could have acted as a backer but I soon started to use a separate backer.
> ...


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## smitty10101 (Oct 15, 2004)

PhilBa said:


> Whiteside and Amana are better in terms of longer life and the ability to resharpen more (straights only, though)..



I beg to differ. I sent a Whiteside spiral up-cut to them for resharpening last year. FREE service just paid postage. So unless they changed their policy-----. No experience with Amana.

smitty


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## PhilBa (Sep 25, 2014)

smitty10101 said:


> I beg to differ. I sent a Whiteside spiral up-cut to them for resharpening last year. FREE service just paid postage. So unless they changed their policy-----. No experience with Amana.
> 
> smitty


Interesting. I've not heard of that. Certainly, I couldn't do that with a spiral - I do give my straights a quick couple of strops on the diamond stone.


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## NorhS85 (May 13, 2020)

*Agree*

Agree



Marco said:


> Freud and Whiteside are arguably the best and MLCS/lower ends the worst. If you are looking for quality....


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## IC31 (Nov 16, 2012)

Got my Whiteside downcut - did a great job - of tearing out the backside of my cuts. Might be a great router bit but for me making sox joints - useless. I'll be trying my table saw and a Freud blade instead.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

It tore out the back even using a backer board?


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

IC31 said:


> Got my Whiteside downcut - did a great job - of tearing out the backside of my cuts. Might be a great router bit but for me making sox joints - useless. I'll be trying my table saw and a Freud blade instead.


no backer board... eh???


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## IC31 (Nov 16, 2012)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> It tore out the back even using a backer board?


Yes, supported both sides by 1x material and clamped pretty solidly. I would probably have done more experimenting but by using the router table it seemed like I was taking way too long for each cut. Yes, have currentlylots of that time, but decided to go with the table saw instead. I've made up a small jig/sled, tried my never used Delta dado set even though others have reported tear out, while waiting for Amazon to deliver the Freud. Yes, that Delta did some tear out, but the cuts were usable. 

I have the router table jig ready to try again eventually - but not until my (good) wood source reopens which doesn't appear to be soon since our area backtracked on the COVID problem.


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## Bstrom (Jan 2, 2020)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> The fingers on a box joint are best made with a table saw and a backer. When you use a router bit you need a facer and a backer. The bit wants to tear out the right side on the way in and the left side on the way out.


Got to agree here - my Freud Glue Line blade does very well in this regard, if you use a backer. This is especially good when you're using Pine or any other softwood. The router jig I have just eats Pine up for dovetails...


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## CharleyL (Feb 28, 2009)

For making box joints on a table saw, a blade or blade set with a FTG (Flat Tooth Grind) produces nice flat bottomed cuts. The Freud SBOX8 blade set (or another brand like it) are designed to make 1/4 and 3/8 wide box joint cuts with very smooth bottoms. DADO blades just don't leave the same smooth bottom in the cuts, Chippers of some dado blades tend to not be ground to the same dimension, and the outer blades of many have spurs (bat ears) that also cause problems. I found that a 1/8" Ripping Blade LM72R010 by Freud makes a great 1/8" box joint cut. There are other ripping blades available with slightly different cut widths that will likely produce good box joint cuts if they have the FTG (Flat Tooth Grind) as well. For box joint cuts larger than 3/8" I use my dado blade set because box joint cuts in larger size boxes tend not to need the same quality of box joints, since the perfectly flat bottoms of the cuts just don't seem to be as noticeable in larger joints on larger boxes. 

I make a lot of boxes, mostly from Baltic Birch plywood. I was once told "You can't make box joints in plywood", but I do it all the time using either my SBOX8 box joint blade set or the Freud 1/8" ripping blade and my Incra I-Box jig on my Unisaw, and get great results. I like the I-Box jig because it's so easy to set to different widths and the fact that once initially calibrated, changing from one width box joint to another is simple, since both the cut width and the space between cuts changes together using just one adjustment. 

I've posted the attached photos before, but they do show how good this combination of blade, jig, and saw can make box joints, even in Baltic Birch plywood. I just recently made 2 sets of "Apple Boxes", a photography name for strong and stackable platform boxes of 8, 4, 2, and 1" tall and 12 X 20" length and width. This combination lets you assemble a platform in any height in 1 inch increments from 1" to 15". A photo of these is also included. Each of the hollow boxes have 3/8" box jointed corners and three partitions spaced equally inside to transfer heavy weight through the boxes from the top of the stack to the floor. These are a common item in photo and video studios to get the subject, or camera man at the exact desired height. I made 2 sets of these a couple of weeks ago.

Charley


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

@CharleyL You beat me to it about the dado blades not giving flat cuts. I use my Freud Box cutter blade for the 3/8" and 1/2", and I had my dado blade resharpened for flat bottom dado's so can use it for all the larger one. The Dado set I had was sharpened from the factory with tiny spurs on the outside cutters for some reason, maybe a glue groove. Now every cutter is flat top so it works for any size up to 13/16". I use homemade jigs ,must be 4-5 sizes that I made a long time ago and if I ever upgrade it will be to the I-Box jig.
Herb


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## IC31 (Nov 16, 2012)

Charley - yes, I was aware that a dado set was not a good choice but Amazon has been very slow with their shipping lately. I decided to give mine a try while waiting for the Freud SBOX8 (now due on May 21). I also needed a new zero clearance insert for my JET table saw made with some 1/2" phenolic. The insert turned out useable, not my best work and the dado .... is a dado blade

I do like those boxes you pictured. I have some micrometers and other measuring tools that need a better home then a cardboard box and my first boxes will be for them


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## dman2 (Sep 4, 2019)

Phil,
I'm impressed that you made a box specifically for a pasta maker! Wow! You must love noodles


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## CharleyL (Feb 28, 2009)

The first and second photos that I posted above show a box that I made a few years back for #2 son's wife for her target pistol. The second box in the third photo holds my CRB7 router jig and all of it's accessory parts. Photos 4 & 5 show the box that I made for my Incra I-Box jig and it's accessories. Photo 6 is just a close-up of one corner of one of the boxes to show how well I can make box joints in Baltic Birch plywood, because someone asked me to take the photo. The last photo #7 shows the two sets of "Apple Boxes" that I just made recently for my photo studio. They aren't for apples, but that's what the photo and movie industries have been calling them for the past 100+ years. They are stack able platforms to lift the subject or camera man, or anything else, any height in 1" increments up to 15" by stacking the right combination. They are very strong because of three partitions in each of the hollow ones, to transfer the weight down through the stack to the floor. The 1" thick is solid plywood. The sides and partitions of these are 3/8" Baltic Birch plywood and the tops and bottoms are 1/2". Each is the standard 12" X 20" and 8", 4" 2" and 1" thick, so different combinations can produce a stack in any 1" increment between 1" and 15". I have managed to test the 8" with three 240 lb + close friends standing on it without even a crack sound from it, so way better than I need. Commercially made versions of these use mostly construction grade 3/4" plywood and are very heavy. Using the Baltic Birch for additional strength let me cut the weight to less than 1/2 of the commercially made versions. A full set of mine weigh about 25-30 lbs. I can no longer pick up a full set of the old Apple Boxes made the traditional way. My guess for their weight is about 80 lbs for the full set. They don't have partitions and are entirely made from 3/4" plywood. 

It's best to shoot portrait photos of standing people with the camera about at eye level to them. At 5'4" I'm not tall enough to get me high enough to see through the viewfinder of my camera when shooting people 5' 8" and up, so one set of these Apple Boxes was made solely to get me at the correct level to photograph them, but there are many other reasons to have and use these in a photo/video studio. My assistant is 5' 8", and when I wanted a close-up of both of us together, I used a 4" and a 2" Apple Box to
put me at her level, since the photo was mostly to get both of our faces at the same level (She was wearing 2" heals.). Group photos frequently need some of this "leveling" too, where the correct ones are added to get the shorter subjects high enough to be in the photo. The 8" standing on end makes a good seat for sitting subjects too, but I usually use chairs or stools.

Charley


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## CharleyL (Feb 28, 2009)

Herb,

Those spurs on the outer blades of dado sets cut free the next amount of material that the dado blade will remove as it cuts deeper. 

It's just like the spur on outer edge of the old auger drill bits. One revolution cuts the fibers free with the spur and the next revolution of the bit scrapes those fibers free of the bottom of the drilled hole. Following revolutions of the bit continue the process while the spiral lifts the cut chips out of the hole.

I switched from shop made box joint jigs (had one for about every size, a whole stack of them) after watching an I-Box demonstration of the prototype at our NCWoodworker club picnic. After seeing it, I was totally sold on getting one, but had to wait about 3 months for them to become available. (yes, I know the inventor personally). He also invented the "Lock Miter Master" setup gauges. After getting and using my I-Box jig, all of my shop made box joint jigs became firewood. It saved me more than double the space in my small shop by replacing them. I now easily dial the jig to whatever width box joint that I want and have only 1 jig to store, instead of about a dozen.

BTW, That Freud SBOX8 blade set makes 1/4 and 3/8" box joints, not 3/8 and 1/2" as you said above (just picking details). For 1/8" box joints, I found a Freud 1/8" Ripping Blade (actually 0.126", but that extra 0.001" is good for the glue) and it has the needed FTG Flat Tooth Grind. freudtools.com/products/LM72R010. Any box joints above 3/8" get made with my Freud stacked Dial-A-Width dado blade. Precision widths, but not nice flat bottomed cuts (but they aren't bad for larger boxes).

Charley


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## IC31 (Nov 16, 2012)

I received that Freud SBOX8 blade and while haven't spent much time with it yet have run several small pieces of 1/2x3 poplar from Home Depot past that blade.. Been a very interesting experience. The joints are first too tight then too loose with very little adjustment - usually in only a few thousandths of an inch making a significant difference.

Also found that there was be a big difference in the wood that was supposed to be pretty close in width - up to 1/16" over a 6" length. This created another problem but easily corrected with my table saw. I'll get my next batch of wood from the lumber yard that has a large selection of nice, well dimensioned woods but will still do a dimensional pass through the table saw

I finally ran a couple pieces yesterday afternoon and while a wee bit looser then I hoped, will work just fine with a couple thousandths more adjusting


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