# Table saw-standing on the left or right side.



## Sawdust Don (Nov 1, 2012)

The only reason I dare to mention this, is, on a machinist site, a fellow wondered- Why do wood workers tend to stand on the left side of the saw?

On many saws, the controls, and switch are on the left side.
Most wood workers use the left side miter slot.

Iam a machinist also, most metal working machines are made to be operated from the right side, such as lathes and milling type machines.

I dont want to seem critical on this subject, just curious.

One example is the radial saw,
Most often, it is seen where the operator uses the right hand on the saw head, the left hand doing things on the blade side.
Iam very uncomfortable doing that,
I use the left hand on the saw head, feed the work with the right hand using a slim push block for under the motor clearance.

On the Table saw, Iam much more comfortable doing most everything on the right side of the blade.
When ripping for example, I keep myself more on the right side of the fence, never in front of the work piece or the blade.
Iam much more comfortable using the miter in the right slot.
About the only time, Iam on the left side is when using a tenoning jig, then hanging pretty far to the left.
It just seems safer to me, maybe just because Iam more used to the metal working machines.

Don


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

It may be just because of your background that the left side feels better to you and it may be that I am just used to doing it the other way. However, in most cases I would be trying to control my workpiece with my left hand by doing it your way and I am right handed. I have a friend who is left handed and he finds most power tools to be backwards for him. One of the differences between using stationary machines to machine or woodwork is that your workpiece is clamped down on machine tools whereas on table saws and router or shaper tables you are usually pushing your work past the tool. On drill presses and wood lathes you work on the right side but you are not handling the workpiece, it's clamped down as with machine tools.


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Sawdust Don said:


> Why do wood workers tend to stand on the left side of the saw?


Hi Don

It's probably because they are right handed and it is much easier to control the cut accurately with the right hand than the left. Unlike metalworking machines where the pressure exerted on the tool/workpiece is either from a power feed or threaded manual drive on a saw it's all down to muscle power



Sawdust Don said:


> One example is the radial saw,
> Most often, it is seen where the operator uses the right hand on the saw head, the left hand doing things on the blade side.


Again for a right handed user that is the correct way to operate. Ideally you need to be able to _see_ the cut line (on safety grounds) which you cannot do if you work from the right side of the saw. the stance which should be taken uses the left hand to hold the work against the fence whilst the right traverses the saw head. You should have the left hand no closer than 12in to the blade. If you work the other way round the saw motor tends to foul the right hand.



Sawdust Don said:


> On the Table saw, I am much more comfortable doing most everything on the right side of the blade.
> When ripping for example, I keep myself more on the right side of the fence, never in front of the work piece or the blade.


But how on earth do you control a rip cut that way? Pressure in ripping is in two directions combined. Firstly you are applying a small amount of sideways pressure to keep the timber butted up to the fence, secondly you are pushing the timber forwards through the blade. If you are standing to the right of the rip fence (positioned conventionally to the right of the blade) then the rip fence plate would obscure your view of the material. You'd not be able to see if the work was running tight against the fence and pulling the material against the fence puts your left arm in the firing line if there is a kickback

Sound like you could be a candidate for a left tilt saw, too

Regards

Phil


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## OPG3 (Jan 9, 2011)

Dominant eye, dominant hand and safety precautions. You can best read the speedometer on a car from the driver's seat. Statistically speaking more people are right handed. I have guns that are ideal for me (being right-handed), that would be painful or even dangerous for a person to use left-handed; and conversely left-handed guns (which are less common) would be painful or dangerous for me to use. The same goes for many tools. Line-of-sight is of utmost importance for safety and workmanship reasons and since more people are right-handed, more tools are set-up in this manner. My (Hitachi C10FL) table saw is ideal for either left or right-handed, but most of my users are right handed. No piece of wood is worth an injury. With respect to guns and tools, many left-handed users simply "adapt" to using their right hands. BE SAFE.


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## Leifs1 (Dec 16, 2009)

Hej. Is it not a question about what you are used to or find a safe way to work with your tools ? I for instance have a combi machine made in the EU. I rip to the left and cross cut to the right. One has to learn how to used it the safe way.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Leif, that made me queasy just looking at it; I'm right handed and I want to keep it that way... 

Over the years I've seen so many left handed carpenters struggling with Right hand circular saws rather than cough up the extra dough and order a Left hand model. Maybe an extra $30-$40?
If this is a Left hand model illustrated than I'm officially losing it:
Sunrise Tool - Discount Power Tools from Makita, Bosch, Dewalt


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## stanzee (Dec 9, 2010)

To me the most obvious reason is on the left side you are standing clear of the flying projectile should a kickback occur.


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Leifs1 said:


> One has to learn how to used it the safe way.


Hi Leif

Using any circular saw without a crown guard is inherently unsafe. Doing rip cuts without a riving knif/splitter is also unsafe. Not a very good example of safe sawing IMHO



DaninVan said:


> If this is a Left hand model illustrated than I'm officially losing it:
> Sunrise Tool - Discount Power Tools from Makita, Bosch, Dewalt


Hi Dan

At least you have the choice. Over here we only started to see LH saws when Makita cordlesses became available. We have still to see any corded left handers. 

My own cordless circular saw is a "left hand" saw in the same way that one is, despite my being right handed. The main reason is that with a LH saw I can use a speed square held against the edge to guide crosscuts - because I can see the blade, and the distance twixt blade and square is less then it really is easier to control the saw. It's probably the only example of "wrong-way" usage I can think of which is actually easier, faster and at least as safe if not safer. For ripping, however, I find a conventional RH saw easier and safer to use

Regards

Phil


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## Ben I (May 21, 2010)

I agree with Stan. 

On a typical rip operation the rip fence is to the right of the blade. Kick back is often caused when the piece to the right of the blade gets pinched between the rip fence and the blade. This happens when the rip fence isn't parallel to the blade and the far end section of the rip fence is closer to the blade that the close section of the fence.

As the work piece is cut it is being pinched between the fence and blade. As the cut is complete or near complete the portion of the work piece to the right side of the blade is fired back in the general direction of the operator. 

If the operator is behind or immediately to the right of the blade the flying wood scrap will hit him or her in the chest or other vital parts of the body.

That can really smart!

Ben


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## Sawdust Don (Nov 1, 2012)

Ha Ha! It seems when machinist get old, they start wood working!

When ripping, I keep my hips just to the right of the fence, left foot forward, more standing abit sideways facing toward the left.
I can peer down watching the board edge against the fence. I always use some form of push blocks, or a long push block, then finaly pushing the work past the blade with the left hand.
The blocks have hand holds taller then the fence.
It seem to me, and from a few incidents, I have had wood break in pieces a couple of times, the pieces flew out past me, as the fence was a barrier of sorts.
The last time that happened, the force pushed me back, the push blocks were blown out of both hands.
With my left foot more forward along the front of the saw, this kept me from falling back into the blade.
The wood was a hundred yr old spruce beam, that I resawed first on the band saw, ran through the jointer, then was truing the second edge on the table saw. The wood showed no cracks, but is very brittle.
The first wood that came apart like that on me, was black walnut with really nice looking grain pattern. I didnt get hit, but my hand was cut by the wood. So, after that, no bare hands on the wood.
Those were pretty eye opening incidents, no time to react, just bang, and pieces are flying.
The first time that happened, I was blown back, then fell back with a hand hitting the blade gaurd. Glad, I had the gaurd on there!

Now, I expect that can happen, so I try to keep my body balance in the opposite direction of the blade, as the second time that happened, the blade gaurd was blown to the up posistion.
With my left foot more forward, I didnt fall back into the blade.

Perhaps there is no truly safe place to be when things go wrong like that, hope for the best, try to be prepared for the worst.

Don


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

DaninVan said:


> Leif, that made me queasy just looking at it; I'm right handed and I want to keep it that way...
> 
> Over the years I've seen so many left handed carpenters struggling with Right hand circular saws rather than cough up the extra dough and order a Left hand model. Maybe an extra $30-$40?
> If this is a Left hand model illustrated than I'm officially losing it:
> Sunrise Tool - Discount Power Tools from Makita, Bosch, Dewalt


*Embarrassment*...O...M...G... I had to go and _look_ at my circ. saws. That _is_ a L.H. saw in the pic. I _am_ officially senile. 
:bad:


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## Leifs1 (Dec 16, 2009)

Phil P said:


> Hi Leif
> 
> Using any circular saw without a crown guard is inherently unsafe. Doing rip cuts without a riving knif/splitter is also unsafe. Not a very good example of safe sawing IMHO Phil


Yes I know I know, Sorry, but somtimes I need to take it off. Unfortunately I cannot take off only the crown guard on this because the spitter will be over the sawblad, I'm just about to make a new splitter.

Hi Dan
[Leif, that made me queasy just looking at it; I'm right handed and I want to keep it that way... ]

I do'nt know why ? I feel quite comfortable standing to the left of the blade, using my left hand to hold down the far end and pushing towards the fence, the right hand comes after pushing the rear end towards the fence and also pushing forward. The offcut if it kicks back goes right beside be on my right side. Happens very seldom. Narrow ripcuts always with pushblocks or pushsticks. My ripfence is off parallel by a hair at rear of the blade.
Circular saw are mostly righthand and you move the machine over the object. On stationer saw you move the object over the saw.
Well that is the way I work. Others may do differently.

Regards Leif


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## Chris Curl (Feb 13, 2012)

it seems to me that from a safety perspective, standing on the left or right of the blade is not relevant as much as following the guidelines, like not crossing the plane of the blade, standing to the side to avoid flying objects if a kickback occurs, and not impeding one's line of sight.

on most saws, the rip fence and miter gauge can be set up on either side of the blade. if one is right handed, then standing to the left with the miter on the left and the rip fence on the right probably makes more sense. conversly, the other way around probably feels more natural for a southpaw.

but as phil points out, standing behind the fence while ripping doesn't make much sense because you cannot see if the wood is flush against the fence.

similarly, when crosscutting, standing on one side with the miter on the other side is generally cconsidered a bad idea.


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

DaninVan said:


> *Embarrassment*...O...M...G... I had to go and _look_ at my circ. saws. That _is_ a L.H. saw in the pic. I _am_ officially senile.
> :bad:



Don't book into the retirement home just yet, Dan.
You may have a couple of summers left.......:lol:


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## Sawdust Don (Nov 1, 2012)

I can see the fence edge, left eye is looking straight down at it.
Iam pretty tall, with long arms. the saw is fairly low- 34", but the table is 38" from front to back, plus about 5" more from the fence guide tube.
Iam not saying that the best spot being is over to the right, just that I cant seem to find a spot over on the left of the fence,that is out of more of the hazzard zone.
The saw is 7hp, if its going to throw a board back, I dont want to be there.










Notice, the old guy that had this saw, moved the switch down. Its operated by foot!
I was going to change it, but found its in a logical spot.
He was a machinist also, thats a Bridgeport milling machine in the background.
Machinist, it seems, just dont want to be over on the left of the fence.

Don


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

I can't make out what the left hand extrusion is; another fence? A motorized feed? 
Nice saw! 
(but I'd personally prefer the switch high and to the left... out of the line of fire)


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## Sawdust Don (Nov 1, 2012)

That long part on the left side of the table, is the fence for the Excalibur sliding table attachment that came with this saw. The black frame leaning on the saw at left, is the slider.
I have not yet hooked that up or tried it. It takes up considerable room. It will be awhile before I can test it out, I have some walls to knock out to expand my woodworking area.
The attachment will allow a 48" cross cut. I have read mixed reviews on it, but, I think it will work if set up solidly, or so its said.

I did alot of research to find the right saw for me, this one has removable blade arbors from the main saw driven arbor.
The arbor sizes are 5/8", 1", 1 1/8", 1 1/4" and 30mm. With blade sizes to 14".
This Delta is very much like the Unisaw, but about twice the weight at 950lbs as this one sits.
The weight along with much heavier arbor bearings makes for a fine finish cut, much like my friends 1600lb Northfield.
I hunted this one down because, it can use any blade within its capacity, and it can be knock down, and fairly easily moved... Its in my basement. Lucky, it came with many extras also.
Ha, now remember Iam a machinist, so the switch is more out of the line of fire where it is, as Iam over at the right.....

Don


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## StevePixley (Aug 10, 2012)

Basic problem in making a safe place to stand at a table saw that you should be compatible and comfortable with the saw. It basically depends on you are left handed or right handed as left handed person can complement the right side better and right handed person can do the same left.


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Sawdust Don said:


> I am not saying that the best spot being is over to the right, just that I cant seem to find a spot over on the left of the fence,that is out of more of the hazzard zone.
> 
> The saw is 7hp, if its going to throw a board back, I dont want to be there.


Hi Don

The safest place to stand when ripping is to the left _of the blade_. That way you can see the fence, apply side and rear pressure to feed the board whilst holding it against the fence and you are out of the firing line. It also helps to have a short rip fence plate which stops just after the front of the blade - that way if the timber you are ripping is reaction timber there will be some extra room for it to move and much less chance of a trap between fence and blade occurring.

In my own experience a kickback is much more likely to occur on a low-powered saw with a blunt blade and no outfeed support - the sort of thing you have on an installation job :blink:. I've worked on 10HP panel saws (sliders) where you'd rarely get a kickback (and it would almost always be down to the operator not pulling the rip fence plate back into the short position), but when you did you'd know about it.

Regards

Phil


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

This is a shot taken from the rear of my Triton saw table. Notice that it is designed with the fence to the left of the blade, note also the riving knife. In use I stand behind the fence and feed wide boards with both hands and narrow ones with a pusher and feather board.


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

harrysin said:


> In use I stand behind the fence and feed wide boards with both hands and narrow ones with a pusher and feather board.


In which case, Harry, the featherboard is taking the place of the hand/push stick to keep the material against the rip fence. That technique works up to a point, but I don't see it being applicable if you need to rip an 8 x 4ft sheet of plywood down the middle.

Regards

Phil


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## Sawdust Don (Nov 1, 2012)

OK, I want to be in the safest spot for sure!
My questions at this point, when being left of the blade, how do you push the work past the blade where it is against the fence?
There at the left, my arms, hands, head, and body, would pretty much be in front of the blade, or, arms stradling the blade.
I use the gaurd most of the time, but have to remove it and use just a splitter for thin kerf blades I use sometimes, but not often.
It seems being left of the blade, I would be in more control of the piece being cut off, then the piece against the fence.

Don


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Sawdust Don said:


> OK, I want to be in the safest spot for sure!
> My questions at this point, when being left of the blade, how do you push the work past the blade where it is against the fence?


Easy, Don, you use a push stick. If pressure is required against the fence you use two...










We've been teaching apprentice joiners to do this for years. This is the way we are taught as apprentices andbel;eive me it is a lot safer

Regards

Phil


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## Sawdust Don (Nov 1, 2012)

I use push sticks "blocks" always.
But, being on the left side of the blade still would put me, arms and hands in front of, and across the blade.
Where, keeping to the right of the fence, appears to eliminate most of that exposure.

I have been naturally doing that anyway without much thought about it.
I have read a few comments on the practical machinist site, where some "machinist" have remarked about why most wood workers operate in front of the blade, or at left of the blade, where it looks like much of an increase of exposure, should a problem happen.

Not saying somehow machinist know better, or anything like that.
One thing comes to mind is a speed to get things done aspect, that woodworkers would lean to, as probably for most machinist, its just a hobby.
An example on the metal machining side, would be some lathe operations that an old hand would do, but in any books, or beginner classes would be described as too dangerous.


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## reuelt (Dec 29, 2008)

Sawdust Don said:


> The only reason I dare to mention this, is, on a machinist site, a fellow wondered- Why do wood workers tend to stand on the left side of the saw?
> 
> On many saws, the controls, and switch are on the left side.
> Most wood workers use the left side miter slot.
> ...


For a right-handed people (about 90%), standing on the left is more comfortable since a woodworker must use the right hand to push the workpiece.
Before electricity, the headstock of a treadle-lathe or bow-lathe was usually on the right. Single-phase electric motors must rotate clockwise and so electrical lathe started to have the headstock on the left NOT BECAUSE of human comfort but because of which way the 1ph electric motor must rotate. 3ph motor can rotate either way but metal working machinery are built so that they can use 1PH too.

The tablesaws are also of two types - right-tilt and left-tilt for bevel cuts. For traditional right-tilt saw, the rip fence must be moved to the left when doing bevel cuts - for safety and quality of final product. For a left-tilt saw, it is the reverse. Most people usually do 90% cuts however.
Many EU tablesaws have a sliding table on the left. That means the tablesaw should be right-tilt or both left & right tilt capable.
Since most Americans have the rip fence on the right, a left-tilt tablesaw has advantage over right-tilt saw when doing bevel cuts.

More confusion?


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

StevePixley said:


> Basic problem in making a safe place to stand at a table saw that you should be compatible and comfortable with the saw. It basically depends on you are left handed or right handed as left handed person can complement the right side better and right handed person can do the same left.


I am comfortable around table saws. I listened to all your stats.

I am left handed. I am also ambidextrous. Growing up, a lot of things where just available right-handed , so you dealt with it and adapted. I stand on either the right or the left of the blade, depending on what I'm doing and what seems more comfortable and/or safer.

If I'm breaking down sheets (for me, that is alone), it all depends where the majority of the weight is, to be able to control it for an accurate cut. If you can't control the work, you are not going to be safe with it. So some times on the right side, some times on the left. Mostly left if I have the rip fence on the right of the blade. Mostly left if I have the rip fence on the left of the blade. If using my sleds or a crosscut fence, then on the left. My cabinet saw is a right-tilt. My site-saw is a left-tilt.

I have a machinist background from way back when. There where lots of right-hand controls that I just learned "this is how you use this." I don't know any left handed metal working machines. I didn't think of them as right-handed until tonight, when I thought back about it. I guess my brain doesn't work that way by setting those limits. Same with other equipment.

Safety saying I need to share. New job. New startup. Their new safety saying- "What do you want to go safety home to?"


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Phil P said:


> In which case, Harry, the featherboard is taking the place of the hand/push stick to keep the material against the rip fence. That technique works up to a point, but I don't see it being applicable if you need to rip an 8 x 4ft sheet of plywood down the middle.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Phil


I'm not capable of handling a 1200 x 2400mm panel. What I do is sit it on a pair of saw horses, clamp a straight edge on then use a portable circular saw, the panels are then suitable to go onto the Triton saw table which is of course intended for hobbiests, not professionals.


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## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

reuelt said:


> Single-phase electric motors must rotate clockwise and so electrical lathe started to have the headstock on the left NOT BECAUSE of human comfort but because of which way the 1ph electric motor must rotate. 3ph motor can rotate either way but metal working machinery are built so that they can use 1PH too.
> 
> 
> 
> More confusion?


Not true. Single phase motors can be and are made to run either CW or CCW and many are reversible by change the winding/wiring configuration. The one on my shaper I even added a double pole double throw switch to reverse at will( must allow to stop before reversing... just saying)! I don't have 3 phase available in my shop, so I assure you they are single phase!


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

reuelt said:


> For a right-handed people (about 90%), standing on the left is more comfortable since a woodworker must use the right hand to push the workpiece.


That's perfectly true Reuel. Everything I have written so far has been postulated on the basis that a conventional right tilt saw is being used with the fence to the right of the blade in all instances. Obviously if you are using a fence designed to have the rip fence on the left, like the Kity combi above, the mirror image of what I've been saying would be the case. 



reuelt said:


> The tablesaws are also of two types - right-tilt and left-tilt for bevel cuts. For traditional right-tilt saw, the rip fence must be moved to the left when doing bevel cuts - for safety and quality of final product. For a left-tilt saw, it is the reverse. Most people usually do 90% cuts however.


Did you know that left tilt saws have, in the main, only been around about 25 to 30 years? They seem to have started in the USA as a way to work round those ridiculous _(sic)_ full length through fences folk seem so wedded to. If you attach an auxilliary short rip fence to one of those you can bevel rip _with_ the guard/riving knife in place, without the fence fouling the guard and with much minimal kickback hazard - an all with the fence to the right of the blade at all times. If you take a look at European-type saws you'll find that the way round trapping/bevel guarding problems has been to move to an L-section high-low fence profile, as on this Hamer K3:










The fence design is like this (fence shown in "short" rip position):










When used for conventional ripping the action is this. Note the "short" rip fence position, guard and riving knife which make kickbacks very, very rare occurrences. also the use of the push stick rather than a block (which places the hand by the blade and the operator too near to the blade):










Obviously in the high position the rip fence plate will not allow you to do any narrow or bevel rips:










To accommoadte this with the guard in place the fence is drawn back, rotated through 90° and re-inserted onto the rip fence body. Note that the riving knife and guiard stay in place:



















This has been pretty much the norm for European-designed sawbenches for about 35 to 40 years now, starting, I believe in Germany



reuelt said:


> Many EU tablesaws have a sliding table on the left. That means the tablesaw should be right-tilt or both left & right tilt capable.
> Since most Americans have the rip fence on the right, a left-tilt tablesaw has advantage over right-tilt saw when doing bevel cuts.


Firstly I don't think it's "many", it's "some" - probably less that 40% of home workshop machines because of cost, but in industry sliders probably account for 75% of saws sold these days which may indicate something about safety concerns. Left+right tilt have proven both expensive and difficult to execute in practice. To date one of the few manufacturers I'm aware of which offers this is a Martin on one design of industrial panel saw (only one, the rest of their designs are right tilters). Martin are very expensive. I feel that what you say about left tilt is only partly true. Please examine carefully the diagrams above. They show a somewhat different approach to safe operation taken in Europe which is simple, safe and effective (and cheap). If you have a long draw back high-low rip fence plate you are in the position of being able to make a conventional rip, bevel rip and thin material rip all with the riving knife and guard in place. These high low fences are generally long enough that they can be slid forwards to accommodate housing/dado cuts and some will also take appropriate pressure guards for that operation (making it safer):










A similar auxilliary rip fence plate can be made and attached to a Biesmeyer fence to convert it into this type of fence, an approach postulated by "Sarge Grinder" over at Taunton Knots for many years and the sort of conversion I've carried out on a number of saws I've worked on. After all it takes just two pieces of hardwood and ten minutes work to make your saw safer

I don't know whether or not this shows I'm starting from a different point to you or not, but hopefully showing the basis from which I work (i.e. what I was trained to use, and the way the USA is starting to move) may clarify some of my earlier comments. 

Regards

Phil


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## reuelt (Dec 29, 2008)

Dmeadows said:


> Not true. Single phase motors can be and are made to run either CW or CCW and many are reversible by change the winding/wiring configuration. The one on my shaper I even added a double pole double throw switch to reverse at will( must allow to stop before reversing... just saying)! I don't have 3 phase available in my shop, so I assure you they are single phase!


Your are right but it is not typical of a 1PH motors design. 
Of course rotation can be changed by configuring the internal pole relationships. For most 1PH induction motor, the only way to change it, is to go inside the motor, find the two ends of the start circuit and reverse them. The arbor shaft can also be made double ended (like in a desktop grinder) or the worm gears can be added as in the skilsaw design so that the blade can be on the left. But machine design takes many other factors into consideration including lowest cost of production. Most cheaper circular saw using universal motors and has the blade rotate clockwise so they must put the blade on the right which is a bad design. That is the reason why cordless circular saws are putting the blade on the left because DC motors can easily spin in reverse.

If an end-user tries to reverse the rotation of a typical lathe motor, the chuck is going to unscrew itself from the arbor when motor starts rotating CCW. It will be unsafe for uninformed end-users to alter machines.


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## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

reuelt said:


> Your are right but it is not typical of a 1PH motors design.
> Of course rotation can be changed by configuring the internal pole relationships. For most 1PH induction motor, the only way to change it, is to go inside the motor, find the two ends of the start circuit and reverse them. The arbor shaft can also be made double ended (like in a desktop grinder) or the worm gears can be added as in the skilsaw design so that the blade can be on the left. But machine design takes many other factors into consideration including lowest cost of production. Most cheaper circular saw using universal motors and has the blade rotate clockwise so they must put the blade on the right which is a bad design. That is the reason why cordless circular saws are putting the blade on the left because DC motors can easily spin in reverse.
> 
> If an end-user tries to reverse the rotation of a typical lathe motor, the chuck is going to unscrew itself from the arbor when motor starts rotating CCW. It will be unsafe for uninformed end-users to alter machines.



Universal motors can be reversed by reversing brush connections. Without changing any thing else.

Porter Cable made both right and left cut circular saws(otherwise identical) for years!

Reversible motors generally have the diagram for hookup on a label on the motor. It is no big secret and does not require going any further than the terminal block.

Some applications run cooling fans that wood be useless if run backwards.

Whether a motor is running CW or CCW depends on which end of the shaft you are looking at. Some, such as fan motors in many window air conditioners, have a fan on both ends of the shaft!

I do agree that you should not reverse the motor in your lathe(or tablesaw, or most tools, for that matter). Some lathes have spindle on both sides and require LH or RH threaded chucks depending on where you are mounting the workpiece. Either or both would unscrew if you reversed the motor direction.

When changing a motor if you just assume its CW, you would be wrong much of the time! At least here in the USA!

So it could be said it is unsafe for an _uniformed_ end-user to change or modify any motor. But that does not change the fact that induction motors...
1. CAN be built to run either direction, 
2. Many ARE reversible with minimal knowledge and effort, 
3. You can get in serious trouble if you are not aware of that!

Guess if your are not absolutely sure what you are doing, it may be best to leave well enough alone, or pay someone who does!


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## Sawdust Don (Nov 1, 2012)

Thanks for posting that Phil!
Lots of good info from everyone.

My best metal lathes have DC drive motors, variable speed, and instant reversing "important for some thread cutting operations", and cam lock spindle nose, "no chucks flying out of the machine".

Don


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

reuelt said:


> Your are right but it is not typical of a 1PH motors design.
> Of course rotation can be changed by configuring the internal pole relationships. For most 1PH induction motor, the only way to change it, is to go inside the motor, find the two ends of the start circuit and reverse them. The arbor shaft can also be made double ended (like in a desktop grinder) or the worm gears can be added as in the skilsaw design so that the blade can be on the left. But machine design takes many other factors into consideration including lowest cost of production. Most cheaper circular saw using universal motors and has the blade rotate clockwise so they must put the blade on the right which is a bad design. That is the reason why cordless circular saws are putting the blade on the left because DC motors can easily spin in reverse.
> 
> If an end-user tries to reverse the rotation of a typical lathe motor, the chuck is going to unscrew itself from the arbor when motor starts rotating CCW. It will be unsafe for uninformed end-users to alter machines.


(Actually direction basically has to do with switching the pairing of a brush to which side of the field winding. One brush to one side of the field winding, then switched to the other brush with the other side of the field winding.)

With tooling start to finish, left-hand threads take as much labor to create than right-hand threads. No cost difference on arbors with left-hand threads. But a machine would have to be built from start to finish as left-handed with that intent. Since metal working machines are inherently costly out of the gates and there are few of us left-handers, I don't see a company changing over it's tooling or cnc routines and completely redesigning a mirror image of something to accommodate a low volume run of left-handed machines. But does it really matter?

Example today. My supervisor was watching me do something. He stopped me afterwards and said I did that faster than others in my crew, but something just looked odd to him and he couldn't figure it out what that something was. My co-worker that was standing next to me, without losing a beat, told him that I was left-handed. The tools were right-handed. Nothing else was said.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

"If an end-user tries to reverse the rotation of a typical lathe motor, the chuck is going to unscrew itself from the arbor when motor starts rotating CCW. It will be unsafe for uninformed end-users to alter machines"

Really Reuelt! See photo just taken showing the power switch on my MYFORD ML7 metal lathe. As Mike has said, when screw cutting it makes life easy.


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## Sawdust Don (Nov 1, 2012)

Here is a left hand saw arbor Acme 12tpi thread.
This had to be cut running in reverse, the tool upside down.
The tool traveling toward the chuck, and being pulled out at the end of the thread, leaving the end of the thread feathered out. A groove to terminate the thread is not done in this application.


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## reuelt (Dec 29, 2008)

Dmeadows said:


> Universal motors can be reversed by reversing brush connections. Without changing any thing else.


True. Universal motors basically can even run on DC - that's why they need carbon brushes.
Some other factors need to be considered before reversing any motor direction.
1. Is there a fan attached?
2. Is the chuck moubted by RH screw or LH screw thread or is there a pin-lock or a set-screw lock at the arbor?
3. Is there a AC dependent Electrics variable Speed control with feedback circuit?
4. Will the machine still be safe for a typical RH person (90% of population)?

In some Govenment Safety and Health regulations in Australia, a left-handed person is NOT permited to use the chain-saw because they would use it with their left-hand and risk hurting themselves. Why aren't there any chain-saws for Left Handed person sold then? Probably because RH people who are in the majority may hurt themselves if they ignorantly use "that LH chain-saw" using their right hand. Easier to ban LH person from using the chain-saw.

So coming back "table saw standing on the left or right side", - a RH person would usually stand on the left but NOT directly behind the blade though - unless doing a bevel cut on a right-tilt saw.


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Reuel,

Curiosity- Are you left-handed or right-handed?

Just wondering why you are so passionate to make this a personal band-stand issue. No malice in that at all. Just curious.

I am left-handed. I assure you that it does not matter to me. It does not stop me nor is it a difficulty. I have not found that being left-handed is in any way a disability. (I don't see any telethons.) I do not think of myself as "unsafe" just because I am left-handed.

I am probably a step ahead, as I can work in both worlds, left and right. By that logic, I must be "more" balanced, right? (Or is that left? I lost track.)

And I thought this thread was about "safety" issues. You adapt, adjust and modify to what is at hand. (Not meant as a pun.) Some could say that those that blatenly don't keep safety in mind and not use common sense... end up on the Darwin List.


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## Sawdust Don (Nov 1, 2012)

2007-2008 over 79000 table saw injuries!

Some interesting reading here,
http://www.cpsc.gov/library/foia/foia11/os/statsaws.pdf

Always be careful!

Don


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Sawdust Don said:


> 2007-2008 over 79000 table saw injuries!
> 
> Some interesting reading here,
> http://www.cpsc.gov/library/foia/foia11/os/statsaws.pdf
> ...


Never read before. Interesting and enlightening.

Different than what I expected though. I would have thought that kickback caused a higher percentage of injuries, but it did cause quite a few. If I read that right, the majority of injuries where blade contact by fingers, but only 56.9% of those were above the table. So that also means that 43.1% of the finger injuries were from blade contact _below the surface of the table_? (What?) And by it's statistics old secondhand bench and contractor saws (most without installed safety equipment and owner's guides) are a lot safer than a new cabinet saw?

But clearly stated, most injuries occurred with a functioning blade guard removed. Most injuries were during ripping with a rip blade.

Interesting read.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

What an eye opener that was.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Mike; it ight have something to do with the manhours spent with the production cabinet saws vs the older Contractor saws (hobbyists?). It might also reflect the experience level of the operators of the fossil equipment (higher?).
Some other likely factors re the production equipment:
-high volume and work pressure
-distractions
-bad work habits passed down from older workers to the new guys
-physical and mental tiredness


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Sawdust Don said:


> 2007-2008 over 79000 table saw injuries!
> 
> Always be careful!





MAFoElffen said:


> Most injuries were during ripping with a rip blade.


Thanks for publishing that link, Don. What I take away from that is that if people got into the habit of using a table saw _properly_; i.e. with a riving knife/splitter and crown guard as well as using push sticks and a (European-style) hi-lo rip fence there would be a lot less injuries. Some of this _must_ be the result of poor design in the guards/riving knives/rip fences of American saws, whilst some of it is down to sheer ignorance; after all you don't climb aboard a Honda Fireblade (high-performance motorcycle), ride off in traffic without training and expect to come away unscathed, do you? But the real pity is that a lot of this can be fixed fairly cheaply and with a little bit of education. There is no need to go the SawStop route

Regards

Phil


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## Sawdust Don (Nov 1, 2012)

Honda Fire Blade-Wow! Best keep the right wrist low on that machine!

The sawstop, maybe the best option for those that are less experienced, or prone to distraction, perhaps watch TV in their work shop.
I looked at the sawstop, rejected it because of the limited blade sizes it can use-10" regular blades, and 8" dado. With 5/8" bore only. Some user complaints on the 5hp models not quite having the power of older saws.
I use regular blades in sizes from 7" to 14", dado blade sets to 12". Also, I like the 38" X 48" table on my current saw.

There are many reasons people give for removing the blade gaurds.
I use the blade gaurd when I can, but of course remove it when needed. But then, being extra careful.
Some say, they cant see the cut with the gaurd in place. I dont feel the need to see the cut, instead paying attentsion to the fence/board contact.
Please dont do this without a gaurd.
Myself, and with my saw, found, I get better cuts with the blade higher then just peaking through the board. I have the blades gullet about 1/4" or more above the board.
I feel that the blade runs cooler also, but, the blade is more exposed, and much more of a hazzard if ungaurded.

I think, and from experience, that a saw needs to be kept in close alignment, and often checked.
There is a point that many would find hard to do, and some saws are not easy to align, and or drift out of alignment in use, My Rockwell contractors saw was like that, but there are some fixes for it.

I dont want to say bad things about other peoples saws, but, it looks to me, even the more expensive consumer saws, at the the big stores, seem pretty bad.

The TV and internet guys, do alot of things on table saws, that I just wouldnt do.
Some think, that the examples seen in the media, is perhaps part of the problem.

Don


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Sawdust Don said:


> Honda Fire Blade-Wow! Best keep the right wrist low on that machine!
> 
> The sawstop, maybe the best option for those that are less experienced, or prone to distraction, perhaps watch TV in their work shop.
> I looked at the sawstop, rejected it because of the limited blade sizes it can use-10" regular blades, and 8" dado. With 5/8" bore only. Some user complaints on the 5hp models not quite having the power of older saws.
> ...


Don- 

Very well said.


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## reuelt (Dec 29, 2008)

MAFoElffen said:


> Reuel,
> 
> Curiosity- Are you left-handed or right-handed?


right-handed. My son-in-law and nephew are left-handed.
To talk about safety, it necessary to know that most woodworking machines have been designed more for a RH person based on economy of scale.
A LH person is usually very intelligent. He usually can & will adapt. 
I mentioned the chain-saw because there is a definite State Government OH&S government regulations on that.

A LH person may stand on the right of a table saw - no safety issue there. But since the power buttons are on the left, he may have to somehow adapt. 
I admire Jim Tolpin a left handed expert woodworker. In his workshop he uses foot-swirtches and lever systems that are so brilliantly designed - that a RH person probably may never have thought of.


(I had once been a factory manager for over 3,300 people. I care for all people's safety. I did not even let any pregnant person sit in front of a CRT because I know the risk to their babies).

So please do not be offended.


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

reuelt said:


> right-handed. My son-in-law and nephew are left-handed.
> To talk about safety, it necessary to know that most woodworking machines have been designed more for a RH person based on economy of scale.
> A LH person is usually very intelligent. He usually can & will adapt.
> I mentioned the chain-saw because there is a definite State Government OH&S government regulations on that.
> ...


No offence taken. If you get to know me- a somewhat twisted sense of humor. I don't take things personal.

Good point. I guess if I stood on the right and moved any extensions to the left side and my fence... Then I could move my auxillery power switch:








You would like that one. A pnuematic (air) actuated electrical switch. Has a big bellows bulb attached to a hose that goes to the switch which it activates. (avaiable as single pole or 2 pole) I have it at knee height. That way I can use the normal switches by hand or the safety switch with a knee. That way I can shut things down without having to take my eyes off the saw or the work.

I now "work" on a line and have to use foot switches. I find this switch easier to use and find.


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