# Bull nose help please!!



## Tally (Jan 14, 2006)

I need some major help from you guys and / or gals that have experience in templates and bull nose bits. I am very open to any and all suggestions because I am getting flat stumped. 
1) I am a custom lure maker and I want to make a flat sided crank bait. I am trying to use a bull nose bit to round the top (back) and the bottom (belly)
2) I do not want to lose any fingers. So if this can not be done safely, then I will trash the idea.
3) The type of wood I will be using is cedar, poplar and other wood like them. The size of the wood is: 1/2" thick and I am talking about routing a lure that is 2 3/4" long.
4) I have tried doing this without a touter table and can't figure this out. I have a table on the way so either way will be okay.
5) I have made a template and will show you a photo at the end of the post. I have never made a template for routing.......so I may have started off wrong from the get go.
6) One of the problems I ran into was: their is 1/8" of flat bit on each end of the bull nose bit. So the template needs to be adjusted for this.
7) the bull nose bit I have is 1/2 "
hopefully this is enough information for somone to help me out. If not, just ask for what you need and I will try to provide the information. If I can figure out how to load the photo, here it is.
thanks, Tally


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## KENNETH KIDWELL (Sep 23, 2005)

Im not real sure how your lure looks when fineshed but one way might be to use longer strips of wood the width and thickness you need and run them through the bullnose bit mounted in a router table to get the sides shaped then cut to length then form the front and back with a table mounted belt or disc sander.
like i said im not sure what the lures look like to try to help any further good luck and hope this helped.


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## Tally (Jan 14, 2006)

Thanks for the reply Kenneth. the SIDES of the bait with stay completely flat and the top and bottom is what I am trying to round. I will try and post a picture with arrows showing what part I want to round next week. If this was a straight line I was routing there would be no concern but the hump on the back and the concaved part near the tail makes it a bit tricky.......for me anyway.
Tally


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## BobandRick (Aug 4, 2004)

Look forward to seeing the pictures of the item you are trying to make.


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## Tally (Jan 14, 2006)

thanks for at least showing some interest in trying to help me. 

Here are the pictures that I promised to post, showing what I am trying to accomplish. Sorry, but I can not take credit for the making of this particular bait but I can tell you a very good friend of mine did. Right now we sand the lure into its round status and that is why we are looking for a better way to round the bait......Sanding is very boring and time consuming  

I hope these photos help someone steer me in the right direction so I can speed up my production. I am open to any and all suggestions.
Thanks again!!!
Tally


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## Hamlin (Dec 25, 2005)

You may consider using a drum sander on it. That's a real small piece to be letting fingers get that close to a high spinning bit.

Ken


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## Tally (Jan 14, 2006)

thanks Ken. Yes I have used a drum sander and if they made one that was 1/2" round, that would be ideal and very safe. We have even discussed making a devise out of a gringing type stone but I thought surely there was a better way. My table arrived yesterday so I am going to proceed to figure this out with great caution. 

I appreciate the site and allowing me to ask my question(s). I thought maybe someone had worked with small pieces with a router and would get me on track. If anyone can think of any saftey measures I need to be aware of, other than the obvious, please let me know. While brrowsing the web I stumbled onto this photo (below). Has anyone tried this technique or have an opinion onif it would work on what I am trying to do?

Thanks again for allowing me to intrude on such a great site. I will visit often to read the post. I have learned a great deal in my brief stay.
Tally


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## Hamlin (Dec 25, 2005)

You're welcome. That's what the site is for though, ask an learn. Never to old nor to young to learn.  

As for round sand drums, look into a dremel. Can't remember off the top of my head but I believe they have 1/2 or 3/4 sanding drums. Another thing you may consider, use a 1/4 round over bit with the method shown in that pic you posted.

Welcome to the board.

Ken


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## Tally (Jan 14, 2006)

Thanks Ken. Is a roundover bit less aggressive than a bull nose? Can I achieve a "full round top and bottom or will there be a smal flat spot where the roundover bit would meet in the middle?
Tally


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## Hamlin (Dec 25, 2005)

It depends on what size of round over an what depth you set it at. Always best to use a scrap piece to find what you're happy with, make adjustments, etc. Hope this helps.

ken


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## Tally (Jan 14, 2006)

Thanks Ken......I will try a few different things and I may be back with some more basic (for you) questions. Unfortunately, I am at the at in the middle. I am not young and I am creeping up on old.....LOL
Tally


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## template tom (Sep 18, 2004)

Tally said:


> thanks Ken. Yes I have used a drum sander and if they made one that was 1/2" round, that would be ideal and very safe. We have even discussed making a devise out of a gringing type stone but I thought surely there was a better way. My table arrived yesterday so I am going to proceed to figure this out with great caution.
> 
> I appreciate the site and allowing me to ask my question(s). I thought maybe someone had worked with small pieces with a router and would get me on track. If anyone can think of any saftey measures I need to be aware of, other than the obvious, please let me know. While brrowsing the web I stumbled onto this photo (below). Has anyone tried this technique or have an opinion onif it would work on what I am trying to do?
> 
> ...


Tally
In my humble opinion routing such small shapes with the router in the router table is not the way to go. 
There seems to be a flat end where the eye screw has been fitted??? or am I looking at it wrong.
If this is so then there is good reasoning to make a simple template to rout your shape from a larger piece of material then cut to size
Small cabinet handle is only 74mm long
Tom


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## Tally (Jan 14, 2006)

Yes Tom, there is a flat end on the tail. I am not sure I am following you on the rout the shape and cut to size part. Please explain and thanks for your opinion. My feelings will never get hurt by an opinion.
Tally


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## reible (Sep 10, 2004)

Hi,

Just catching up after being away for a while but this post looked interesting so let me take a shot at a simple method of doing these that will save a bunch of steps and be reasonable safe to do.

First, I did not actual do this as described but I have done something very much like this with my overhead pin router.....

First look for bits called a "groove forming" bits, the one you need would have a name like "flat bottom round over". The bit looks like a round over bit but where the bearing would normal be it has a cutting edge. What this will do with the use of template guides and a template is cut and edge the "bait" at the same time.

The fixture to hold this will have to have alignment holes as the one side is routed then the template and workpiece are flipped over, and the alignment hole then keep the cuts matching for the second side.

The first attachment show an idea of what the template looks like.... For this type design the cut out will need to be the width or greater of the guide bushing and the off set is dependent on the bit you pick. I would also say that I just picked 4 but you might do 8 or 10 at a time or maybe just 2 that is up to you. You could also do the pattern the other way but this way protects the "bait" better.

What you will be left with is a board with several rounded over pieces which then are cut from the board as shown in attachments 2 and 3. 

[edit: I sort of cheated on what the part would look like on attachment 2... it would really look like attachment 4 with the scrap wood left...... the cut would then remove both the waste and the "bait". I was trying to not have the pattern and the workpiece look alike to much but maybe this will clear things up for everyone....... sorry if I confused you.]

Ed


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## template tom (Sep 18, 2004)

reible said:


> Hi,
> 
> First, I did not actual do this as described but I have done something very much like this with my overhead pin router.....
> 
> ...


Hi Ed
Welcome back 
Good to see you put pen to paper and don't you agree this sort of question gets our old grey matter going,
Firstly I have had very little experience with the overhead Pin router so I will not comment I suppose it is like the router in the table only working from the Top.
The Bit you mentioned is what I call a FACE/EDGE cutter as it will act as a plunge cutter as well as radius the edge. These I use all the time especially when I am putting a moulding on a picture frame for example. 
I follow the idea of the pin in the lower template and the cutter comming down to rout the shape. You mention the template and the work piece being flipped over, this I am not clear with. Are you using a Female Template or a Male Template? The cut out for your pin to follow. How do you ensre realignment when they are flipped over?

This is where I prefer to use the template guide and use the plunge router working from above. _I personally would not use the router table_ on such a small object.

Now I know that the end section is a flat surface I have something to work on, _either screwing the piece of material to a jig, or using a larger piece then cut to size when the it has ben shaped_.

I would be iterested in some other comments surely theremust be someone out there whow may have attempted something like this. If I get a chance I will give it a try if there is no alternative solution.


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## Tally (Jan 14, 2006)

AWESOME!!!!!
I am glad to see that you guys find this post both interesting and a challenge. 

Ed, you are on the same path as me. The idea was to cut / rout as many as possible at one time. Until you two took off with this post, I would have settled for just being able to do one. 8-10 at one time would beperfect.

First attachment you have, and correct me if I am wrong. Are you talking about leaving both the bait and the wood out side of the cut / groove attached to the main board. By this I guess it looks to me as if there is an inside and outside template if you will. "this way protects the bait better".....meaning there is less chance of the bait breaking off?
Overhead pin router....hmmm!!!! I have heard and seen these but never really paid any attention to them. I guess I need to do some research here.

Tom......thanks for asking those questions to Ed. This is really starting to take shape a bit. I have no problem with using some sort of small pins to hold the template to the wood. A little filler and touch with sand paper and she will be ready to go. Besides, the bait gets sealed with a clear epoxy.

"If I get a chance I will give it a try if there is no alternative solution."
WOW!!! Now that is what I call help.
This has been my pleasure and please keep this post going.
thanks,
Tally


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## BobandRick (Aug 4, 2004)

How many of these things do you want to make?

If it is a fair number then one pattern shape of your item and guide with the plunge round over router bit is the way to go. 

With the pattern located over a block the size of your item with a thickness of 4-6". Use the plunge round over, pattern and guide cut the shape into the end of the block. Remove the block from the pattern and cut the end of the block off at 1/2" thickness. You now have the shape of your item, it's 1/2" thick and is rounded over on one side. 

To get the other side rounded over you could mount the piece on the end of a support block with a screw. Then you could round over the other side, with a round over bit as shown in your photo keeping your fingers on the support block.


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## Tally (Jan 14, 2006)

BobandRick said:


> With the pattern located over a block the size of your item with a thickness of 4-6". Use the plunge round over, pattern and guide cut the shape into the end of the block. Remove the block from the pattern and cut the end of the block off at 1/2" thickness. You now have the shape of your item, it's 1/2" thick and is rounded over on one side.


Not to sound dumb here, but I am not following what you are saying.
thanks Tally


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## reible (Sep 10, 2004)

"I follow the idea of the pin in the lower template and the cutter comming down to rout the shape. You mention the template and the work piece being flipped over, this I am not clear with. Are you using a Female Template or a Male Template? The cut out for your pin to follow. How do you ensre realignment when they are flipped over?"

Hi Tom,

The first cut is made where the bit will do the plunge cut and radius the edge. In either case 
1)you are using the router above the work hand held and the template on top to control the cut 
or 
2)overarm pin router where the template is on the bottom 

You now have to flip the work piece over to cut the second side.

The second cut is the tricky one as it needs to align to what has already been cut. To do this I flip both the template and the work piece over. The tempate is now on the wrong side to use. This is where the alignment pins come in to play. I lift the work piece off the pins. I push the template pins through (to face the other side of the template) then slide the work piece on the pins. This reverses the stack and the template is now on the side you need it and the second cut can be made.

Hope that makes it clear..... If not we can try it again.

Yes the bits you have shown are the ones I was talking about. They work great for a lot of projects and are nice additions to your bit collects for those of you who don't already have some.

Ed


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## reible (Sep 10, 2004)

Hi again,

How an overarm pin router works is the router is on an arm above the work piece. The table has a pin (normal sizes of 1/4", 3/8" and 1/2") The pin stands above the table and is used to follow the pattern or template.

In the case I was descibing I would make a pattern of one of the "baits" then use that to cut the shapes shown in the template attachment 1. This sits on the pin in the table, the work piece is above that and the router is lowered into the work piece and the pattern is followed. You then move pattern to pattern and when in this case all four have been cut things need to get flipped over. You do the same thing and when they are all cut you end up with the 4 pieces attached to the work piece and you cut them off and do what ever else needs to be done.

This is much the same as what could be done with the use of a hand held router with guide bushing and a template mounted above the piece. This again requires the work piece to be turned over and the second side to be done. This is where the alignment is needed to make sure the "bait" is not misaligned.

When you use a router with either of these methods the pattern can be used to protect the parts you want. Where ever the pattern is the router can never go....... If you made a tempate to cut out the bait that requires you to keep the guide against an edge the rotation of the router along with your efforts can keep it to the edge but if you were to not be watch and thinking you could rout into the opening thus making a new designed "bait". 

Think of it this way. You make a pattern with a large round hole in the middle. Now you can use the template to make more holes. Each hole is never going to be larger then the next as the guide prevents it from doing so. But that same template could be used to cut out circles like maybe a wheel. As long as you stay tight to the pattern each wheel will be the same... but if some sawdust/wood chips built up at some point along the edge and the template guide followed the edge until it got to the that then followed the chips around that portion of the circle the wheel will no longer come out round..... the wood chips will have caused the cut to go off at that point....... If this same thing happen to you when you were using it to make holes you simple go back and run by that spot again after you clean the chips away and you have another perfect circle.

Now is this making sense or can someone else expain this better.....

Ed


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## Tally (Jan 14, 2006)

Thanks Ed. I understand this concept completely. Even though I am working with wood, I don't consider myself as a wood worker like all of you folks. 
I did some browsing on the web and unless there is a special place to buy the "overarm pin router", they look to be a little more expensive than the return I am getting.......meaning I would have to sell a ton of cranks to pay for the machine.

However, I have found a few pin router's where the "pin" would be on the top and the cutting would take place on the bottom. I know this is a new bucket of worms and probably should be in a thread of it's own, but can you tell me if this type of pin router will do the same thing you described???? Or is this type of "pin router" a waste of money.
thank you very much for your time and patience!!!!
Tally


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## reible (Sep 10, 2004)

Tally said:


> Thanks Ed. I understand this concept completely. Even though I am working with wood, I don't consider myself as a wood worker like all of you folks.
> I did some browsing on the web and unless there is a special place to buy the "overarm pin router", they look to be a little more expensive than the return I am getting.......meaning I would have to sell a ton of cranks to pay for the machine.
> 
> However, I have found a few pin router's where the "pin" would be on the top and the cutting would take place on the bottom. I know this is a new bucket of worms and probably should be in a thread of it's own, but can you tell me if this type of pin router will do the same thing you described???? Or is this type of "pin router" a waste of money.
> ...


 You are right about the cost of new ones..... I went to ebay and got one made back in the '80's by Shopsmith. They have a new one that mounts to a Mark 5 if you happen to have one of those... See:
www.shopsmith.com

The old one I have from Shopsmith has the table made with a cut out for a router plate thus it will work just like a regular table router or as the pin router. The overarm design has like a drill press a handle that lowers the route and thus bit into the wood.

The other way round where the router is below will work the same basic way but you need to provide a starting spot or some why of lifting the router... both can be done. Take a look at:
www.leevalley.com
They have a system like this and I was thinking about buying it but in the end it would have cost more then I paid for mine at ebay. I did try one form another company for about $100 with bits but it was not ridged enough for me so I returned it...... The lee valley one looks like it made much better.

Before the age of cheap nc machines this was the best most small companies and advanced hobbiest could do, even these machines were a couple thousand $ so when Shopsmith entered the market with this one in the $500 range it help the home users who had that much money get one... and small start up companies. The problem was it didn't take long for x-y machines to enter the market under the 10K mark and small companies could afford that for the added power of "nc" sooooooo the shopsmith market went down and they stopped making them. Now the new one they decided to market (after 10 or so years) mount to a Mark 5 (on sale for $432).

I would keep an nc machine in mind for when you go global and start making millions of these or you might check around for a local shop that would be willing to make these on their machine for a reasonable cost...... Just remember your time is worth money.

Ed


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## Tally (Jan 14, 2006)

Man, am I getting an education.

Ed, I assume the "bit jack" from Lee Valley is the part you particularly like. That is an interesting deal and I may look at that a little closer. 

"The other way round where the router is below will work the same basic way but you need to provide a starting spot or some why of lifting the router"
In your figure one, how would you make a starting point to use just pin on top and bit on bottom if you did have a way to lift the router?
Tally


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## reible (Sep 10, 2004)

Tally said:


> Man, am I getting an education.
> 
> Ed, I assume the "bit jack" from Lee Valley is the part you particularly like. That is an interesting deal and I may look at that a little closer.
> 
> ...


 Lee valley also has the pin router arm + table top.... the arm can be used without the "jack".

You have several options for starting the operation. The issue is the bit has to be some place where the work piece is not. The work piece and template have to sit on the table and the pin adjusted in to the template. Then you need to start the router and move along the template to engage the work piece. The easies way is to have the template have an opening to the side where the work piece is not...... Then have room to engage the pin before you reach the wood.

It might look like the attached sketch.... 

Remember this is a concept not plans for your actual project, if I were really building this I might try several ways before selecting one that I felt worked best. In this case I might not like the idea of having to come in follow one leg then back out and follow the other leg then back out.... or follow one leg shut off the router let it spin down then take the pin out move the project over put the pin down and rout the leg then repeat... It makes a lot of difference when you make lots of something rather then say 50 or 10, things you can live with on short runs could make doing a lot of them a less then wonderful experence.

I should also point out I am no expert on overarm pin set up and only building experence on the overarm router, so if anyone wants to explain some other methods please do so, we all can learn for an exchange like this.

Ed


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## template tom (Sep 18, 2004)

Ed
From your Drawing where four are cut out from the one piece of material, which way is the grain running?? if it is vertical you will have a chance of 'Break-out' as there will be very little material to take the pressure.
Just my thoughts from your links I was unable to see a pin router. 
The first Pin router I saw was standing over 1800mm tall and took up a floor space of 1metre square
Tom


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## labric (Sep 11, 2004)

Interesting problem

I have been surprised by all the different solutions to your problem and offer you another alternative, which closely resembles what you were trying to do in the first place, with the tools you currently have.

First a few assumptions:
- you are using a 1/2 " shanked full bull nosed bit
- your finished lure is approx 1 " to 1 - 1/4 " in depth
- you have access to a table mount or are getting one

To do this project, I prefer the table mount method and a simple template fixture, so I can keep a close eye on what is routing and to keep my body parts away from the router.

Make a " clamped sled template " for your lure with a symetrically shaped edge that matchs your lure profile, using 2 lures end to end connected at the tail. 

Use either 1/2" thick MDF or 2 pieces of 1/4" MDF glued together to form the top and bottom of your fixture.

Rabbet the profile to provide 1/4" relief along the profiled edge of your template if using 1/2" thick MDF or offset one layer of the 1/4" MDF to provide relief. This will provide a recess for the flat end of the router bit that isn't needed in your finished product.

Add stop blocks, spacers, piano hinge, clamping knob, and grippers (if needed). Assemble the sled as shown in the attached plan.

Use a minmum 3/4 " guide bushing in your router, install your bull nose bit, keeping the bit above the bushing. Alternately, you can use a 1/2" ID bearing attached below the cutting of you bit.

Set up your bit 1/2" off table or to match lower edge of your clamped woodstock.

Starting stock would be 1 - 1/4" x 5 - 1/2" or larger depending on the depth of your lure and what you will use to cut the 2 lures apart.

The process would require two passes over the router, cutting one side at a time, so you end up with a symetrical " batwing " that you simply cutting into two peices.

You can make improvements to the sled to eliminate " tearout " and duplicate the sled so that you can cut 4 or 6 lures at a time, however your original starting stock would still stay the same.

I think this is a simple solution to your problem but caution you as I have not tried this myself, however the principle should work for you.

Go fish!!


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## Tally (Jan 14, 2006)

WOW!!! I have definately come to the right place with my problem and answers. I just stopped in to see if there were some replies and I printed them to study a bit. I am open to any and all suggestions. I am 100% sure that you all on this forum surely have a better idea of how to attack this problem. I am very greatful!!

Ed, someday.....if I ever need to produce millions of these, I might have enough money to afford an "NC" machine. For right now I have to stay with in a budget. Having said that, I am always looking for a better way to do things. This thread has been awsome and very helpful, please keep the thoughts and ideas coming.
Tally


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## Gilbear (Dec 13, 2005)

Hey Tally, as a fisherman, I'm interested in seeing the finished product too - please post some photos when you get there ... may be able to help support your new equipment needs with a purchase or two (specially if they're guaranteed to get a 10 lb or better bucket mouth!)


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## template tom (Sep 18, 2004)

Tally
Labric has come up with the solution so now you are all set to go
Congratulations Labric
Just had a quick thought re the jig. Make it slightly longer at the leadin side simply to engage the template guide before cutting 
Tom


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## Tally (Jan 14, 2006)

Tom, I think you might be right. I have been looking at this plan of attack all afternoon. Now remember I told you I am not a "woodworker" so please excuse my ignorance.

"Rabbet the profile to provide 1/4" relief along the profiled edge of your template if using 1/2" thick MDF or offset one layer of the 1/4" MDF to provide relief. This will provide a recess for the flat end of the router bit that isn't needed in your finished product."

I have 1/2" MDF so let's just use it. Now I understand the 2 lures connected at the tail. My question is: there is a top sled and a bottom sled, am I correct in thinking these both need to be shaped? If so, do I rabbet both pieces?

The process would require two passes over the router, cutting one side at a time, so you end up with a symetrical " batwing " that you simply cutting into two peices.

Okay, side one cutting and clamping I understand. Clamping and cutting side two, looks loke there is still a problem with now way to clamp.

Thanks.....you guys are getting me on track. Maybe someday I will understand enough of your language that I won't appear so dumb...lol
Tally


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## Tally (Jan 14, 2006)

Gilbear said:


> Hey Tally, as a fisherman, I'm interested in seeing the finished product too - please post some photos when you get there ... may be able to help support your new equipment needs with a purchase or two (specially if they're guaranteed to get a 10 lb or better bucket mouth!)


No problem Gilbear......will be more than happy to post finished product with all the help I am getting. It will catch a 10 pounder if you put it in front of a hungry one  I will mark one :sold: to you.
Tally


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## labric (Sep 11, 2004)

Tally, let me clear up some points you raised.

I used a wooden clamping top to provide even pressure across the total face of the stock material for both first and second cuts. If you wish you could use 2 toggle clamps in lieu of the wood top however the fixture could get fairly expensive when extending beyond two lures at a time. 

The top of the fixture is shaped the same as the bottom to allow you clear visual site lines to your routing and keep you in tune with what is happening at the router face.

With respect to the rabbeting, my first thoughts were to allow total clearance for the top and bottom portions of you bull nose router bit, providing 1/16" vertical clearance top and bottom of the bit thus allowing the bit to cut your stock and not bind or cut the fixture.

Secondly, the depth of rabbet is overly exaggerated in my diagram. The depth of rabbet should be slightly larger than the depth of your cut and will depend on the size of bushing or bearing you use to rout with and I expect will be somewhat less than 1/4". If you can match a bearing or bushing to the diameter of your router bit you may have very little rabbet.

Again assuming that you material is 1" or wider, you should have lots of clamping surface left after the first cut.

Once you determine the bushing and bearing that you will use, you can then see that the fixture will clamp all across your stock except for that portion which you rabbeted away from the fixture. The addition of sandpaper to the fixture or strategically placed short nails just penetrating the inside of the fixture should secure your stock more than adequately for routing.

When constructing your fixture allow for the addition or your hinge so that the leading of your fixture can be tightened and squeezed thinner than the back of the fixture.

Tom, raised a good point about extending the fixture at the leading edge, and I might add that if you intend to increase your capacity to use multiple fixtures, that you allow some distance between the fixtures so that finish routing one piece of stock before continuing down the fixture for the next piece.

Ric


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## template tom (Sep 18, 2004)

Just had a quick look at my cataloge on cutters there is a cutter with a bearing similar to the one in your sketch. This would save any danger with the template guide Carb-I-Tool cutter Number TBN 8 B 1/2.
There is also another problem to solve. When the item is turned round How is it Centred?? or will it make much difference if they are not exactly the same size?
Just a few thoughts as I was drawing it on my computer.
How critical is the shape can I have a detailed drawing with the radii as well as the length and width
Tom


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## labric (Sep 11, 2004)

Tom, there is a simple solution for this one.

Before starting the first cut, place a vertical line at the center of your stock on both sides of your work piece.

Place a cut line or pencil line mark on the centerline at the outer edge of the template.

When laying up your fixture, simply line up your marks and tighten your clamp.

The router bit you mentioned has a bearing on the top of the bit, which is opposite to that required for a table mount as in my diagram.

I just purchased a bearing repair kit the other day which has 3/16", 5 mm, 1/4" and 1/2" ID bearings c/w 1/4" and 1/2" ID stop collars that will make any router bit into a bearing bit, and would work for this project. The kit contains 1/2" ID bearing with OD sizes of 3/4", 1", and 1 - 1/8", which will allow the addition of a bearing to the router shaft together with the stop collar.

Tally may have to provide you with the sizes, as I am old school and used my drafting skills together with a french curve to draw the shapes in my post. If you want a copy of my sketch, I can gladly email you one.

Ric


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## reible (Sep 10, 2004)

template tom said:


> Ed
> From your Drawing where four are cut out from the one piece of material, which way is the grain running?? if it is vertical you will have a chance of 'Break-out' as there will be very little material to take the pressure.
> Just my thoughts from your links I was unable to see a pin router.
> The first Pin router I saw was standing over 1800mm tall and took up a floor space of 1metre square
> Tom


 Boy you go not read this post for 24 hours and all sorts of good stuff comes along.

Tom the grain has to run the length of the bit, at least I think it does for the bait to more secure...... but then some wood is stronger then others and maybe the importain point is how strong it is when a fish is on the line........ the attachment points for the hook and line???

When it warms up I'll get some pictures of my set-up, I've made some mods to mine that allow 1-1/2" guide bushing to mount and thus any patterns I have for guide bushings and top routing can now be used with the pin router..... anyway I'll show some of these details sometime in March or April and they really don't mean much for this post anyway.

Ed


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## reible (Sep 10, 2004)

Hi,

Now that I'm up to date on the progress and had time to look at the "labric" fixture design I can see this as being a nice starting spot for this project. The bad news it it gave me yet another idea.....

What if now (I'm just going to start the idea so someone can picture it cause I don't have the time to sketch it up) we start with the idea of the top and bottom as shown, we add a place to get on and off the pattern as was mentioned but the two baits are inches apart and the pattern is on both sides.... Two holes, one for a pin or dowel the other for the fastener are between the baits as is this "on and off" spot. You start at the mid point rout all the way round. The work piece is held by the fastener and pin going through the workpiece and both sides are done........ Now all you have to do is come up with a way to keep it from being toooo tippy which also can be done....

OK now we each make 10,000 of these we get Jerry to finish them and we flood the market with them via e-bay. We make them out of basswood and and call them "The Basswood Bait". Who's in???

Ed


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## reible (Sep 10, 2004)

BTW for those of you watching from the side lines come on in the waters fine and this is a good time for you to pitch in with yet another idea...... This is one of the more interesting post in a good while......

Ed


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## Tally (Jan 14, 2006)

ha! ha! Ed..........
just had the opportunity to check back myself and wow, it is very nice to see all the help and replies. I am part of a tackle making forum and it offers the same great help that this site does. I am very impressed with you guys and your generosity.

"BTW for those of you watching from the side lines come on in the waters fine and this is a good time for you to pitch in with yet another idea...... This is one of the more interesting post in a good while......"

Thanks Ed....... I was very leary of posting here in the first place because of the size of wood, but you all have made feel very receptive and have not treated me like a dumby.

"OK now we each make 10,000 of these we get Jerry to finish them and we flood the market with them via e-bay. We make them out of basswood and and call them "The Basswood Bait". Who's in???"

You are killing me Ed........lmao
unfortunately getting the shape of the body is just a small part of making a crankbait. There are still things like lip slot for the bill, cutting the bill out of lexan, drilling holes for weight and hook hangers, weight placement and the correct amount of weight to get the bait to do what production baits do not do. Oh yeah, then there is the sealing, painting and clearcoating of the finished product.

Anyone who wants to make their own crankbaits, just send me an email and I will help you out all I can. It will be my repayment for the help I am receiving.  

Tally


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## Tally (Jan 14, 2006)

"The router bit you mentioned has a bearing on the top of the bit, which is opposite to that required for a table mount as in my diagram.

I just purchased a bearing repair kit the other day which has 3/16", 5 mm, 1/4" and 1/2" ID bearings c/w 1/4" and 1/2" ID stop collars that will make any router bit into a bearing bit, and would work for this project. The kit contains 1/2" ID bearing with OD sizes of 3/4", 1", and 1 - 1/8", which will allow the addition of a bearing to the router shaft together with the stop collar."

So what I need hear is a 1/2" shanked full bull nose bit (1/2" radius) with no bearing? Then purchase a bearing repair kit? This will allow me to put a bearing on the shaft side of the bit? 

Now, in my readings of the posts in this forum, there are bits that are better than others. Where do you all recomend purchasing bits from and what brand that will do the intended job?

Also, are the shanks the same size in lenght on all of these type bits? or do they make some bits with a larger shank.
thanks Tally


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## Tally (Jan 14, 2006)

*"When constructing your fixture allow for the addition or your hinge so that the leading of your fixture can be tightened and squeezed thinner than the back of the fixture."*

Sorry, but I do not understand this hinge deal?????

Tally


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## Tally (Jan 14, 2006)

Okay fellas, it is time for you instructors to grade the student. I have 2 pieces of 1/2" MDF two sided tape together so I can make the symetrical cut. I added one additional knob to the original plan submitted, one because I think this will help hold the "sled" together tighter and two, it will give me something to hold on to as I am routing. 

Please.........all comments welcome
Tally


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## Hamlin (Dec 25, 2005)

To answer the hinge question:


> I used a wooden clamping top to provide even pressure across the total face of the stock material for both first and second cuts.


E-bay eh? Hmmmm I kinda like that idea.


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## labric (Sep 11, 2004)

In yesterdays post in reply to Tom, I discounted the idea of using a hand held router and std bearing bull nose bit and suggested the only way was table mount.

My apologies to those I may have offended.

You can use this fixture either way, but you will need to make some slight alterations to the fixture if you are going to use a hand held router and a standard bearing bit.

In order to have sufficient surface to use a hand held router , will require the lengthening of the fixture from 4" long to maybe 12" long and the fixture will have to be turned upside down and then clamped to a suitable work bench or put in a vice.

The top part of the fixture (now the bottom) will now be your guide for a normal bearing bit.

So for all you die hard fishermen, who thought left out because you didn't have a table router, go fish!!!!

Ric


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## labric (Sep 11, 2004)

Tally

If you already have a bull nose bit with bearing lets work with that and avoid the additional expense.

I had original thought that because fixture is so high using 1/2" material that the router bit would be working too far out of its collet.

The solution depends on what kind of bit you are using, whether it has a long or short shaft. 

It is possible to use the top portion of the fixture as your guide and use a normal bearing bit, providing you can do so safely.

Unfortunately, I don't have a bull nose bit in my shop so I am only looking a catalogue pics from different sources and they all vary.

What is size and brand of router bit are you intending to use??? 

Modifications can be made if you want to use a top mounted bearing bit. 

I would consider making the bottom portion of the sled in thinner material ( 1/4" MDF) and lower my bit just off the table if necessary.

It shouldn't be necessary to buy a new bit if your existing bearing bit is too short. Just add a new bearing and stop collar to the shaft side and remove the old bearing from the top. 

You always have the alternative to use a guide bushing rather than the bearing.

With regards to which router bit brands you should buy is discussed elsewhere in the forum and in some of today's other posts. 

In regard to the hinge make sure you allow for the thickness of the piano hinge so that the total height doesn't exceed  the height of your work piece. The mounting surface of the hinge could be sloped downward slightly towards the front of the fixture. This will ensure that you are clamping the work piece fully and not getting hung up on the hinge.

Your layout of the bait lures needs to be continuous in one line as if you were extending the tail of each piece by your sawcut.

In the layout you have drawn, you have centered the lures on the " X " axis when they should be drawn so the backs and fronts touch the stop block or line behind and then moved proportionately apart in a continuous line to allow for your eventual sawcut. Your " noses " will not line up on the " X " axis.

I have made adjustment to my original sketch to indicate the numerous options available from our discussions to date

Ric  

PS What type of fishing are we doing here???


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## Tally (Jan 14, 2006)

labric said:


> Tally
> 
> If you already have a bull nose bit with bearing lets work with that and avoid the additional expense.
> 
> ...


These Lures are for BASS fishing. I would like to offer an invitation to everyone who has helped me in this post. Send me you "addy" and I will not only send you one of these cranks, but I will send you a rounded side crank to boot. This particular crank, takes somewhere between 3-5 hours from start to finish. who knows, I might even slip in one of my fish catching machines.......a Tally's spinnerbait. If interested drop me an email...

[email protected]

Thanks Tally


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## template tom (Sep 18, 2004)

THis has been one of the more interesting postings submitted as it has brought out some interesting postings from a number of presenters and I am sure we have all learned something from this. 
I would have thought it could have been done with the plunge router, completing a simple jig and template but Ladric has come up with a great solution on the router table. The method he has shown has made me rethink how I could complete some of the articles I was producing in the plunge mode. Thank you for that.
If I do get a chance, I will see if I can do it with the plunge router and keep you informed.
Once again thank you all for keeping the interest going and also helping someone with a routing problem, we should have more postings like this.
Tom


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## labric (Sep 11, 2004)

Tom

Thanks for your blessings and compliments, I guess I should apply for a patent!!!.

An afterthought to those making the bait fixture.

If you cut any material away at the center of the bull nose router bit, you will have to shim the back stop in order to make the same cut in the second pass.

It may be a good idea to cut your original stock material *1/8" *  larger, make your first cut and then add a 1/16" shim for the second cut.

Thats the theory, let me know what you come up with.

Ric


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## Tally (Jan 14, 2006)

Excellent Ric.....you must have been reading my mind. I was a bit concerned about losing height on the bait and was dliberating on just how to overcome this proble. In order for me to get a "full" rounded top and bottom, some material has no option but to be removed. The 1/16" shim should do the trick, if not, it at least gives me some ideas on how to overcome the problem. You guys have been most helpful and I just want to say thanks.
Tally


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## cheesehead (Jan 24, 2006)

Tally make two jigs one shaped for the top side cut #1 and one with a profile cut to do cut #2


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## Tally (Jan 14, 2006)

update: I have now conected the tails and lined up on the stop block instead of the center axis. The cut has been made and sanded smooth. When time allows, I will drill the holes for the clamps and cut the stop block and spacer.
Like a student (me), I am turning in my homework. Hopefully, I have paid attention in class. Thanks.
Tally


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## labric (Sep 11, 2004)

Looks good so far !!! Give yourself a star !!!

Did you find a router bit that you can work with, as planned???

Set your stop block in so it is removable (screw attach thru bottom ?) in case you have to make fine adjustments later.

Ric :sold:


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## Tally (Jan 14, 2006)

labric said:


> Looks good so far !!! Give yourself a star !!!
> 
> Thank you, I had some great teachers!!!
> 
> ...


thanks again...Tally


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## labric (Sep 11, 2004)

Not sure this is any help as my sources are probably different than yours living up here in the great white north.

Try these:

Freud 

lenght 2 - 9/16" w/o bearing and 2- 7/8" with bearing
http://www.freudtools.com/woodworkers/rep/router_bits/Router_Bits/Half_Round/html/Half_Round_1.html

Lee Valley 

length not indicated
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=30158&cat=1,46168


Eagle America

lenght 2 -3/8"
http://eagleamerica.com/product.asp_Q_pn_E_160-0302


Hope this helps.

Ric

PS: The great white north hasn't arrived here yet !!


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## Tally (Jan 14, 2006)

Thanks Ric,
the bit I have now is 2 3/8", guess when my bushings arrive I will be able to tell more. Again, I will only continue this project if it done with safety being the number 1 concern. The Freud bit will give me a little more and I will keep this in mind when I lay out the router bit on the table.
Tally


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## Tally (Jan 14, 2006)

Latest update on the progress. Also, I found an interesting article that I would like to scan and post. The name of the article is "4 Rules for Router Setup". Being very new to routing myself, this article helped me understand some of the things some might take for granted that a "newbie" should know? I will post in "general routing" as a pdf file unless this would be against the forum rules.
thanks Tally


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## template tom (Sep 18, 2004)

Tally said:


> Latest update on the progress. Also, I found an interesting article that I would like to scan and post. The name of the article is "4 Rules for Router Setup". Being very new to routing myself, this article helped me understand some of the things some might take for granted that a "newbie" should know? I will post in "general routing" as a pdf file unless this would be against the forum rules.
> thanks Tally


Tally

I have spent some time in working out a method using the template guides cutting one lure at a time I have still to make the Jig and templates So when I do I will keep you informed on the results.
Down to the workshop 
Tom

Since posting my suggestion yesterday and having a close look at it this morning I will require to be carefull I do not cut into that screw
Tom


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## template tom (Sep 18, 2004)

template tom said:


> Tally
> 
> I have spent some time in working out a method using the template guides cutting one lure at a time I have still to make the Jig and templates So when I do I will keep you informed on the results.
> Down to the workshop
> ...


Enclosed is suggestion to overcome the problem by leaving the small area in position will add as a stop for the template guide.
The template guide was 40mm and the cuter is an extending rounding-over with a 6mm radius
Tom


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## Tally (Jan 14, 2006)

Tom, thanks for staying with this project. I only wish I could understand your drawing. That is way over my head.

I finally had the opportunity to try out the jig on Sunday night. Once again, trial and error seems to be the main ingrediant. I used 1 1/4" x 6" x 1/2" thick stock. I think I nee to use 1 1/2" wide stock as I had some flat spots on the widest part of the jig. I also think I need to adjust mystop block to where more wood in in the jig. These are just simple trial and errors until I reach the best method.

2 problems................

1) when trying to rout the left side (see attached) the router wants to grab real bad and actually takes chunks out of the lure body at the nose area. What am I doing wrong? the rest of the body cuts just fine.

2) there is a lot of wood between the 2 tails that needs to be cut out. Am I expecting too much, thinking the bull nose bit can cut all that wood on one pass?

thanks.....Tally


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## labric (Sep 11, 2004)

Tally

In response to your latest post, I suspected the need to adjust the stop to get a good finish and glad you solved it by the age old method of " trial and error " .

She's a great teacher !!!

In reply to your other concerns, I will deal with the second item first.



> _2) there is a lot of wood between the 2 tails that needs to be cut out. Am I expecting too much, thinking the bull nose bit can cut all that wood on one pass?_


Yes, take smaller bites out of the deepest cuts before cleaning up your final cut. It will leave you a better job and save wear & tear and over heating on your router bits.

With regard to the first problem, your dilemma was not unexpected.



> _1) when trying to rout the left side (see attached) the router wants to grab real bad and actually takes chunks out of the lure body at the nose area. What am I doing wrong? the rest of the body cuts just fine._


Two possible questions and answers may solve your concerns.

Are you routing in the right direction?? Left to right for table routing??



Did you add any modifications to the fixture to eliminate " tearout" ??

Add a stop block on each side of the stock material, which will allow the cutter cut through the ends without tearout. If stops can not be added to the fixture then remake your back stop in a " C " or " U " shape to accomodate the side stop. 

If you can whittle the amount of cutting down so that you are only cleaning up your cut on the final pass and have a block at the end of your fixture, you should totally eliminate the tearout and end up with a nice clean finished cut.

Again trial and error will be your best teacher!

Ric


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## Tally (Jan 14, 2006)

"Two possible questions and answers may solve your concerns.
Are you routing in the right direction?? Left to right for table routing??

Be gentle now as I am new at this, and maybe this is the problem but from reading post's, I think I am routing in the right direction. I am standing on the side of the table and moving my sled from left to right. to better describe this: I am looking at the router and the fence is behind the router.


Did you add any modifications to the fixture to eliminate " tearout" ??

I have not made any modifications and excuse me for asking, but for never doing this, I just don't understand what you mean  
Stops????? Is this so the guide bushing will not allow the bit to go any farther?
My initial thought was that I needed to re-make my jig and make some kind of point of entry into the lure stock.
Tally


Add a stop block on each side of the stock material, which will allow the cutter cut through the ends without tearout. If stops can not be added to the fixture then remake your back stop in a " C " or " U " shape to accomodate the side stop."


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## labric (Sep 11, 2004)

Tally

I have not routed cedar material as much as hardwoods, so I can only speculate as to possible solutions.  

I had hoped the tearout was at the end of your routing, not at the start, so bare with me.

The choice of cedar, which is a softwood, is a loose grained wood, very easily split along the length of the grain. Unfortunately at the start of your cut, you are cutting directly into the grain and pulling away from the stock material as you move along the fixture thus lifting chunks.

Not sure support stops will prevent this from happening, based on the type of wood we are using here. I have attached a sketch on top of your picture, of the idea of "support stops" on the sides of your fixture to help prevent " tearout". They should be the same thickness as your material.

You are now in the tinkering stage of jig making and will have to experiment with the fixture and techniques you will employ.

Before you try the support stops, let's do some trial and error methods here.

1. Change your knobs to the other side of the fixture and start routing from the opposite side as it appears the starting angle would be less severe.

2. Try a peice of MDF or other wood as your material stock and see if you run into the same problem.

3. Experiment with longer pieces of stock, to see if you can keep the tearout away from the nose of the lure. ( May have to widen the fixture for this to work)

4. Try the addition of support stops.

Do you get any tearout while routing the center of the fixture?? 

Maybe Tom or Ed may have more experience with routing cedar and have some other ideas in this regard.

Ric


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## reible (Sep 10, 2004)

Hey I see we are still on this project....... and here I was taking a nap.

Can you provide an image of how the set up looks just as you are about to start the cut including where the router bit is and the direction you are feeding and have it from your perspective (what it looks like as you look at it)? I'd like to see the stock in place too.

Any reason for the wood choice?

I'd like to tell you to take lighter cuts but I'm not sure how you can do that with the jig you have now....

If you want to give it another try and this time put an angle cut on the stock so it looks like <==========> to keep the angle down as the cut starts....

Anyway I review all of this again later in the day and see what if anything Tom adds.

Ed


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## template tom (Sep 18, 2004)

reible said:


> Hey I see we are still on this project....... and here I was taking a nap.
> 
> Can you provide an image of how the set up looks just as you are about to start the cut including where the router bit is and the direction you are feeding and have it from your perspective (what it looks like as you look at it)? I'd like to see the stock in place too.
> 
> ...


Hi Ed
I understand the problem there will be with the cutter taking such large bites
(a) at the beginning and halve way through then at the end. 

The method I had put up using the template guide and an extending rounding over cutter and taking small cuts would elliminate the break out to a certain extend.
The template I had submitted was open from both sides and turned over to rout from the other side.
Even as I am writing this posting I am considering changing the cutter and template guide to a different combination (So it is back to the drawing board to prepare an alternative solution)
I will post the result in the morning as it is now approaching bed time for me.
Tom


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## template tom (Sep 18, 2004)

template tom said:


> Hi Ed
> I understand the problem there will be with the cutter taking such large bites
> (a) at the beginning and halve way through then at the end.
> 
> ...


Hi again
Could not go to bed with this unsolved (Working with template Guides) and I think this would work 
Two identical templated with the material sandwiched between Using two dowels to locate. The template guide I would use is 22mm diameter with a fine point (1mm) Beading cutter 6.35 Radius. Plunging from both sides. I consider this combination better than my previous submission.
Tom


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## Tally (Jan 14, 2006)

labric said:


> Tally
> 
> I have not routed cedar material as much as hardwoods, so I can only speculate as to possible solutions.
> 
> ...


pictures will be up in about an hour


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## Tally (Jan 14, 2006)

reible said:


> Hey I see we are still on this project....... and here I was taking a nap.
> 
> Ed, there is no times for naps
> 
> ...


Please don't stop throwing ideas out there. I am taking them all in and can see where some of these will be very important to this project.
Tally


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## Tally (Jan 14, 2006)

template tom said:


> Hi again
> Could not go to bed with this unsolved (Working with template Guides) and I think this would work
> Two identical templated with the material sandwiched between Using two dowels to locate. The template guide I would use is 22mm diameter with a fine point (1mm) Beading cutter 6.35 Radius. Plunging from both sides. I consider this combination better than my previous submission.
> Tom


Tom I am sure that what you are posting is probably on the money, but for guys like me, it is a bit to high tech. Meaning, how about putting it in "layman's" terms?
Tally


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## Tally (Jan 14, 2006)

Okay, here are the photos from this mornings rout. I am making progress but still have a few adjustments to make. This is what I adjusted for todays rout.
1) I moved my stop block 1/4' back so I would have ample stock remaining to make second cut.
2) my original stock width was 1 1/4" and I tried 1 3/8" today.

3) Before making second rout, I added a 1/8" wedge which made the second rout near flawless......YEE-HA!!!!

what happened? First rout I still had some flat spots on the "humps" which leads me to think I still need more stock for the initial rout. I will adjust the width to 1 1/2" tomorrow and see if this eliminates the 2 flat spots on the "humps". 

5 pictures below showing some good progress and some problems that need attention.

photo 1: second rout using 1/8" wedge
photo2: side veiw showing flat spots and a little gouge. More stock might correct this.
photo 3: first cut showing the gouge that is taking place on the intial rout.
photo 4: another veiw showing the nice rout on the second cut using the 1/8" wedge.
photo 5: veiw showing the 1 3/8" stock and the flat spots that occured.

okay..........fire away at me
Tally


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## template tom (Sep 18, 2004)

Tally said:


> Okay, here are the photos from this mornings rout. I am making progress but still have a few adjustments to make. This is what I adjusted for todays rout.
> 
> what happened? First rout I still had some flat spots on the "humps" which leads me to think I still need more stock for the initial rout. I will adjust the width to 1 1/2" tomorrow and see if this eliminates the 2 flat spots on the "humps".
> 
> ...


Tally with your first cut leaving flats it is your jig. This needs some fine adjustment I think. Yes you will need a shim when taking the second cut.

Don't worry about what I have put up I was only looking at an alternative method only because I specialize in the use of the guides, you seem to be going well using the table. 

I am convinced I can use the guides but I still have to prove it by producing like you are doing, so keep up the good work and you will master it before long. Ric has set you on the right track for someone who has not used the guides so go with it.

Try my suggestion for the first cut and let us all know how you get on
Tom


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## template tom (Sep 18, 2004)

Tally said:


> Tom I am sure that what you are posting is probably on the money, but for guys like me, it is a bit to high tech. Meaning, how about putting it in "layman's" terms?
> Tally


Tally 
I should have gone to bed. Just a correction to one of my postings I mentioned a 22mm guide in one of my drawings then I proceded to draw the template changing to 18mm Guide (this would be the smallest I could go with this cutter) and I did not make the change in the Template Cutter drawing.
My apologies to all
Tom


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## Tally (Jan 14, 2006)

laughing my rear end off.......I sure am glad you cleared that up Tom, I was starting to get confused....

One day I might know woodworking enough and look back at this post and say...ahh, now I get it. Just how long have you been working with guide bushings? In my short time with guide bushings and templates, I wonder why more people are not up to speed on them?
Tally


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## template tom (Sep 18, 2004)

Tally said:


> laughing my rear end off.......I sure am glad you cleared that up Tom, I was starting to get confused....
> 
> One day I might know woodworking enough and look back at this post and say...ahh, now I get it. Just how long have you been working with guide bushings? In my short time with guide bushings and templates, I wonder why more people are not up to speed on them?
> Tally


Tally
No it is not easy to come to grips with template guides. I have been working with template guides for the past 20 years and I also wonder why more people are not up to speed on them. I always look first to see if it can be achieved with the template guides as I consider it as a safer option and also reduces break-out on most projects.
Tom


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## Hamlin (Dec 25, 2005)

Labric, I'm not understanding the attempt of using MDF? Unless this is only for the cutting trials to check for "tear-out". Ceder however, is an excellent choice for lures.


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## Tally (Jan 14, 2006)

Hamlin,
I took it as to mean: try another type of wood or MDF, just as a test to see if maybe it is the scrap wood I am using causing the problem. I have a piece of poplar and some MDF I will try in the morning. I also raised a question in "general routing" about bits, fearing that maybe the bit might be the problem also. 
with all the help and interest on this thread, I am sure there will be success!!!!
Tally


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## labric (Sep 11, 2004)

Hey Hamlin

Only suggested MDF as a trial since as it is denser than cedar and may not suffer from the tearout Tally is getting with softwood.

Ho Tally

Great pics ....you are making me jealous sitting on the sidelines watching you have the fun part and me guessing what you are up to. I may have to get in the workshop and try my hand at this although I don't know what I would do with it when I'm done. There's no Bass fishing up here !!!!

Just to spurn you on...this project must be completed by early Saturday a.m., as I'm off for 2 wks R&R in the sun, and I'd hate to miss the ending after reading 74 chapters so far.

No more fooling around ..there is a now a *deadline*...lets see if you can work under pressure.

Get routing !!!!


Ric


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## Tally (Jan 14, 2006)

"Just to spurn you on...this project must be completed by early Saturday a.m., as I'm off for 2 wks R&R in the sun, and I'd hate to miss the ending after reading 74 chapters so far.

No more fooling around ..there is a now a deadline...lets see if you can work under pressure.

Get routing !!!!"

Deadline???? ha ha!!! you all obviously have more free time than I. There is no time for nap or vacations.......so you to wake up and cancel the R&R.

Here is what I did this mornig. Changed stock to 1 1/2" and a length of 7".

I tried 3 different types of wood today. 1) the original scrap wood I have been using which I bought at Lowes and it says "craftwood" on it. It is very light wood. 2) Poplar and 3) MDF.

Results: craftwood and poplar still have gouges on the hump area where the wood is tearing out......I guess. To my surprise, the MDF is the best rout I have done by far. see attachments.

Point of entry is still a problem and a big concern. when the bit catches the end, it kicks pretty good and this scares the socks off me.

Ed.......the photos of my point of veiw are also ready for you. see attachmnets.

As the old saying goes: Close, but no cigar!!!!!

Tally


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## Hamlin (Dec 25, 2005)

> Only suggested MDF as a trial since as it is denser than cedar and may not suffer from the tearout Tally is getting with softwood


That's what I intially thought but figured I'd ask.. (just in case)  

Tally, looks like things are coming along just fine for ya. For the flat spots, as someone mentioned, "practice makes perfect". Don't rush it, you'll get it.  Awesome job so far. :sold: 

Ken


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## template tom (Sep 18, 2004)

Tally said:


> Here is what I did this mornig. Changed stock to 1 1/2" and a length of 7".
> 
> And here is what I did this morning
> 
> ...


I just needed to give it a go...... It worked alright but I would not ask a Neewy to routing to tackle anything this small.... The lure ended up 65mm long and 30mm wide..... With the alteration to the jig it is possible to make them a little larger. You could actually make them Much larger if you wish.

Tom


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## reible (Sep 10, 2004)

Sorry I didn't back to this sooner but things happen....

One thing to try is to do a precut using a bandsaw or jigsaw (coping saw by hand?) cut about 1/16" away from the shape of the bait then do the routing... as you enter you shoud have cutting not a "bang"..... this is due to the grain of the wood and if you hear that noise that is a large splinter of your bait is chipping off.

Now as far as material goes...... is it correct to say you have not done cedar yet? Depending on the cedar it may do better due to a more even grain pattern then pine who has a mix of tight and wide spaces so have a go with it using the cedar.

I would also mention that many years ago I did some lathe turning of segmented baits as a highschool project. The instructor (from the old country) told me to use basswood. I did a quick look at basswood and it weighs in at 26 lbs/cu foot.... cedar depending on which one is in the range of 23 to 31. Pine again depending on the kind is 28 to 38, things like oak are in the 40-47 range. Anyway you can also try a few different woods and see how they do...... of course staying to the lighter weight ones.

Ed


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## Tally (Jan 14, 2006)

Well, you can't say I don't listen. I put the scrap wood and poplar away and broke out the cedar. Much better results!!!!!

I also started with a 14 1/2" stock which would give me plenty of room on booth sides to enter and exit. Just trying to elimunate the gouging and tearing.

See attachments:
1) First side rout...........this side is no longer a problem since I used longer stock. No tearing or gouging anywhere.

2) Second side rout.....you can see that after the first rout, it leaves very littls stock left to do the same thing as the first side. suggestions here would be greatful. The right side is still very good but the left side with little stock there, I still had a gouge or tear out.

3) After studying this for a bit, I am thinking about making my template look something like the first rout........what do you think?

I have photos of the 3 routs up in a bit.

Tally


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## Tally (Jan 14, 2006)

One more thing. Lesson learned today. Routers and knots do not like each other!!!
Tally


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## labric (Sep 11, 2004)

Hey TAlly

Yep, routers and knots are not compatible!!

If you hear of a guy being arrested on a island beach for indecent exposure while only wearing a thong, you will know it was me because I was suppose to be packing but snuck down into the workshop for some " lure " making.    

I had great success starting out using a piece of spruce and I was quite pleased with my efforts for the little time invested.    

I then moved on to cedar and after routing the first side I figured this was going to be a piece of cake. NOT SO!!!! Cutting the back side was a total disaster, as large chunks tore off.  :'(  

My third attempt produced better results, but even though I took more care, I still ended up with tearout at the humps as you had reported earlier.    

As I didn't have a lot of time to make my jig and the lack of a bull nose router bit, I made some alterations to the fixture and used a 1/4" radius round over bit ( similar to what Tom used ) with a 3/4" guide bushing.

The fixture is slightly wider, ( the profile is similar to your first rout ) and instead of knobs I used a t-nuts and stove bolts through the fixture, thus allowing me to rout using both sides of the fixture as the sled and template. It worked real well and I had no problem hanging on. I will post pictures tomorrow some time.

I have a few comments and possible solutions to our dilemma, as even using the round over bit, I found that when running parallel to the grain, tear out was inevitable.

Here are some suggestions that are worthy of a trial run are:

- Try using the round over bit as it doesn't grab as much 

- Use wider stock ( only if using a round over bit )

- Cut stock off a wider board ( 1 x 6 ) at an angle so that the grain doesn't run parallel to the template.

- Cut stock out of thicker dimensional cedar and rip opposite direction. If this is not possible I would look at laminating thinner material and then rip opposite. This would put the grain of the stock material vertically rather than horizontally through the " lure ".

I will post pics and if I get some more time, I'll see if I can get packed and sneek downsatairs for some more lure time.

Hope this helps.

Ric


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## labric (Sep 11, 2004)

Ok guys Here are the pics as promised!!!   

There is a thunderstorm brewing upstairs so I will make this short as I have been told that this is not important and to start packing.   

I snuck down to the workshop and did one more trial run and had much better success now knowing where the problems are. Here are the pictures and short explanations

1st Pic -The setup 
1/4" round over bit with 1" OD brass guide bushing
2nd Pic - Fixture parts & assembly
used t-nuts & stove bolts in lieu of knob and screwed fixture together at hinge end, 1/8" spacer, top & bottom sleds with stops
3rd Pic - Assembled fixture 
assembled fixture (bottom view) with 1/8" spacer, stock cedar material
4th Pic - Assembled fixture
assembled fixture (top view) with 1/8" spacer, stock cedar material. Notice pencil line for centering
5th Pic - Finished Rout
Fixture with finished rout of lure. Small chips still evident at these locations only from 2nd cut. Can be sanded out.
6th Pic - Finished results
after 4 attempts these are the results

Keys to the improved finish:

- For the 2 nd cut I increased the spacer to 3/8" as I didn't have any more cedar to play with and needed to see what would happen if I could use a wider piece to start with.

- Before routing across the fixture, I started to lightly nibble at the humps, without forcing the wood into the router. Also worked backwards as I nibbled away which eliminated large tearouts. Once the humps were relatively complete, I then started at the noses and continued across the fixture. Seemed to work real well and I am sure that with a little more time and effort, I could get much better at it.   

I still believe that changing the direction of the grain would be much more beneficial and produce better results, and suggest you give serious consideration to this point.

If I get some time later today, I'll review this post to see if I can add anything that I may missed.

Ric


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## Tally (Jan 14, 2006)

Excellent Ric. I know moma does not think this is important stuff, but I am not going on a 2 week R&R in the sun so it is pretty important to me....ha! ha!
You all have been great help to me and hopefully this weekend I will get to play with a different template idea also. These pictures you posted have helped me out even more. You all keep this up and you will be making custom lure before you know it!
Tally........have a good trip


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## Tally (Jan 14, 2006)

Just wanted to drop in and give you guys a BIG THANKS for helping me with my project. I have since made a few more modifications to the jig and now have it dialed in. This is a great group of guys/gals who do exactly what the forum was designed for, and that is to share your knowlegde and helpful ideas. I tip my hat to you all and the forum mods. If I ever need any router help in the future.....I now know where to go. The pleasure was all mine.
Tally


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## Tally (Jan 14, 2006)

Hi all.... it has been a while since I have dropped in. Some of you have asked to see some final product after had them ready. So I will attach them to look at.
I could not have done this without the help of this forum and I want to thank all of you. With all or your help and then a little creativity on my part, there is now four jigs ready for use. All of them create a different lure. There has been modification after modification and now they are dead on the money. I can not seem to get away from "some" chatter but it is easily sanded out.

In the photo there are 18 cranks. The 6 middle ones are the ones made with a router.......
Again, thanks to all of you!!!!
Tally


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## Joe Lyddon (Sep 11, 2004)

Hey Tally,

Those look pretty darn GOOD!! Any fish should be happy to take a bite of them!! 

Just curious... do you have a band saw? If so, I can see where you could setup and mark a long string of them, cut the sides close to the lines, take to router & use pattern bit to clean up, roundover/bull nose the sides, on bandsaw cut off pairs at noses, setup bs jig for slits & cut slits... tidy sanding... cut each pair in half... etc...

Where do you sell those lures? How much do they run?

You're doing a great job! Thank you for showing the finished products...


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Tally

I have seen the snapshots b/4 BUT I'm total amazed every time I see them  
And it's amazing you made them with a router, it's such a great job I need to say something every time I see them, but they are great and you did a great job painting them as well. 
It just goes to show many router users and me you can make almost anything with the right jig and the right bit(s)...
If you have anymore snapshots I would like to see them and I'm sure the others would also.
Router art, is a art and you have the gift. 

Bj


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## Tally (Jan 14, 2006)

Joe Lyddon said:


> Hey Tally,
> 
> Those look pretty darn GOOD!! Any fish should be happy to take a bite of them!!
> *Thank you.... the baits in that picture are the hands of a few guys who fish alot and are also custom lure builders, who are testing the baits to make sure that all is ok. *
> ...


*Thank you for the compliments
Tally*


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## Tally (Jan 14, 2006)

bobj3 said:


> Hi Tally
> 
> I have seen the snapshots b/4 BUT I'm total amazed every time I see them
> And it's amazing you made them with a router, it's such a great job I need to say something every time I see them, but they are great and you did a great job painting them as well.
> ...


Thanks again for the help and nice compliments......this forum took a guy who knew very little about routing and turned me into a routing machine  
Tally


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## labric (Sep 11, 2004)

Hi Tally

Congratulations on your fine workmanship and craftmanship!!! Excellent work!!!

I am impressed and envious with what you have accomplished and proud to have had a bit part in your success.

You mention in your posts, of " changes and modifcations " and a " little creativity  " allowed you to come up with the finished product.

For those of us who have been following the progress of your project, please let us know the modifactions and creativity changes you made and what the finished jig/fixture ended up with!!! Pictures would be great!!!!

Again, I commend your work and suggest that you post your handywork in the current contest running on this forum, because it takes routering to a different level from the norm and it is in a class of its own. 

I am sure others here, would agree.

  Ric


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