# Router bit rising up



## Larkan (Apr 13, 2012)

Wondering if any one can tell me why this would occur?

Using a Triton TRA001 table mounted and a muscle chuck. Passing a piece a 350mm length of US Maple along the fence to create a 4mm deep groove. What starts as 4 mm progresses to nearly 7.

Tried to remove the collet with the idea of cleaning it but can't budge it so used a piece of foil as a shim to get a tighter fit between the bit and the collet. This seemed to work but is a temporary fix to my mind and thoughts?
Is there a technique to removing the collet?

Thanks in anticipation.......

Cheers, Kerry


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## sreilly (May 22, 2018)

Kerry,

I haven't had that problem but I suspect that a liquid wrench solution soaking for a while and some gentle back/forth motion may well convenience that collet to let go. I wouldn't try any brute force but give it some time to work in. 
Good luck


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

did you put a MM dia in an imperial measure collet or vise versa???


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## hawkeye10 (Jul 28, 2015)

Stick486 said:


> did you put a MM dia in an imperial measure collet or vise versa???


That is what it sounds like. You shouldn't be able to shim it with anything. I guess the Muscle Chuck could be bad.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

and the shimming jammed the collet...
sounds like a brute force fix w/ collateral damage...


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

The MC is supposed to grip with about 4x the force of a standard collet so it should have held unless as suggested the shaft was undersize. 12mm is close to 1/2 so is a possibility. I also got a (cheap) bit once that was oversize. I couldn't get it into a 1/4" collet. Something went wrong at the factory on that one. I bought some bits off Onsrud a couple of years ago that were slightly off size on the cutting end (shanks were fine) and most had an E on the end of the model number (E for error?) so not all are what they are supposed to be.

If you can't get the bit out them I'm thinking that you bent the MC slot together and you need to remove the set screw and take a very thin bladed screwdriver and try and open the side apart where the screw goes. Then check to see if a bit that has always worked will fit in. If not then you've squashed it together.


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## sunnybob (Apr 3, 2015)

I read that as the chuck isnt seized, he just wants a way to stop using foil as a shim.

Where did you get the bit from? mainland europe uses 12 mm cutters. UK and america uses 12.5mm (1.2")
use a calibrated tool to measure the shank. If its 12 mm dead, bin it. or youll just make the same mistake again next year.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Run the router fully up so the shaft is locked before you do much of anything. Foil is pretty soft, I'd concentrate on the fixes offered before relying on a shim. If the bit has always worked fine, then something else has happened, perhaps the height lock isn't fully tightened? The Triton is a pretty powerful machine and the resistence of the wood and a slightly loose height lock could result in creeping. I'd be very hesitant to spread the muscle chuck before doing all the other suggested checks.


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## JFPNCM (Dec 13, 2009)

I would take this directly to John Derosa at MC, [email protected]


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## Larkan (Apr 13, 2012)

Thanks everyone appreciate the suggestions.

Cheers, Kerry


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## radios (Sep 30, 2009)

I always use a rubber o-ring between the bit and armature shaft, it keeps from transferring heat, and if a bit gets stuck, I can loosen the nut as much as possible, put a board over the bit, and tap it down, that has always worked for me, I'm used to using a little tap to get Morse tapers loose on machines..


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## sometimewoodworker (Feb 13, 2009)

radios said:


> I always use a rubber o-ring between the bit and armature shaft, it keeps from transferring heat, and if a bit gets stuck, I can loosen the nut as much as possible, put a board over the bit, and tap it down, that has always worked for me, I'm used to using a little tap to get Morse tapers loose on machines..


An O-ring to give a guide to limit how far into the collet is a common good idea. But it has nothing to do with restricting heat transfer. If your bits are getting too hot then either they aren't sharp or you are going too slowly. The collet is designed to grip the bit and absorb a reasonable amount of heat without jamming.

But it sounds as if you are griping the O-ring and that is a terrible idea.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

I'm wondering if you are using a 1/4" shank bit with a MUSCLECHUCk reducer sleeve because early on the reducer sleeves were out-sourced and they couldn't lock some bits. If this is so then do contact John.


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## Larkan (Apr 13, 2012)

Thanks Harry. I'm pretty peed off with John. I sent all my details:
The collet diameter is .484 or 12.28mm
I’m pretty sure it is not one of your collets. The MC does not come with a collet unless you specifically order on is that correct?
The bit itself is 234.5 or 5.96mm

I then had to prompt them for a reply, a reply that means nothing without more detail.
He said and I quote: your collet was not bored correctly. 

Your comment is now starting to make sense and I'm wondering if the MC did come with the collet? Not sure what to do now.......




harrysin said:


> I'm wondering if you are using a 1/4" shank bit with a MUSCLECHUCk reducer sleeve because early on the reducer sleeves were out-sourced and they couldn't lock some bits. If this is so then do contact John.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

The reducer sleeve is an optional extra and the 1/4" one equates to 6.3mm so your bit at 5.96 is undersized which isn't surprising that it slips. I have never had problems using unbranded reducer sleeves. Don't hesitate to ask further questions if you are still in trouble.


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## Larkan (Apr 13, 2012)

Can I ask how do you think I should resolve the issue? I'm un able to get a 6 mm collet here. My favourite supplier is out of them, another says they won't stock them because they're for europe not here and Muscle chuck want a small fortune to ship one of theirs.


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## Nobodi (Oct 22, 2015)

look on ebay.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

That bit is a 6mm shank if that's the size it measures. Lee Valley sells a variety of collet sizes for $4.80 CAD last time I bought one. Their products are usually good quality. I think Rockler may also sell them out of the States and if I remember who and how much correctly they were $4 US. That would give the Rockler one a slight edge price wise and their shipping may be cheaper down there. Ours is high. I have 6mm, 8mm, 3/8, and 1/8 from LV. The 3 larger ones are 1/2 OD.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Kerry, one thing that I'm pretty certain of is that your problem isn't with the MUSCLECHUCK. Is the problem with only one bit or many, also from where did you buy the bit/bits? Here are three places in Oz where you can get reducer sleeves plus, as has been said, there are many more around the world including Ebay. Please do keep us up to date Kerry, I can guarantee that the problem will be resolved, we are here to help each other like no other forum that I have come across .


https://picclick.com.au/1-2-to-1-4-Engraving-Adapter-Router-Collet-Reduction-131700785094.html

https://www.makita.com.au/products/...12-7mm-1-2-plunge-router#standard-accessories

https://www.carbatec.com.au/1-4-1-2-router-collet


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

NOTE FOR A MODERATOR.

I must have had hiccups when I made the above post! Could you please delete the copies. Thank you. Harry


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## JFPNCM (Dec 13, 2009)

@Larkan

Very surprised to hear of your issues with John re the MC. The internet can be a funky place for communication and I would encourage you to give him another try.


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## Larkan (Apr 13, 2012)

I get frustrated when folks like him think customers know and understand as much about the product as they do. Simple as that, it is a communication issue, I know he is trying to help but I'm no nearer to understanding exactly what is wrong. I used the router Thur with a ½ bit in the Muscle Chuck and it worked like a dream so my belief is that the bit is metric while the collet is imperial.


The collet diameter is .484 or 12.28mm
I’m pretty sure it is not one of your collets. The MC does not come with a collet unless you specifically order on is that correct?
The bit itself is 234.5 or 5.96mm
Harry tells a ¼ bit equates to 6.3mm
The inside diameter of the collet is 6.0mm this leave .04 slack before the collet is tightened, is that too loose to begin with?


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

It now appears that the MUSCLECHUCK has been proved to be fine, as we all suspected Kerry. A new reducer sleeve will almost certainly solve the problem. You really must appreciate that without having your router, sleeve and bit to examine, neither John or anyone else can diagnose the problem without asking lots of relevant questions. I have just read your profile and it is impressive, I hope that you will post photographs of some of your projects, and in the future take shots during the making of your projects so that we can all SEE how YOU do things. We really are a friendly lot here with all kinds of experience that we enjoy passing on. I see that you are looking at this this thread at the moment so I won't answer your PM.


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## Larkan (Apr 13, 2012)

Thanks Harry. I agree it is not the MC. 
Yes I'm a bit slack when it comes to pics but will make an effort to take a few more. I'll take a few of this project and add them in.

Cheers Kerry


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Larkan said:


> I get frustrated when folks like him think customers know and understand as much about the product as they do. Simple as that, it is a communication issue, I know he is trying to help but I'm no nearer to understanding exactly what is wrong. I used the router Thur with a ½ bit in the Muscle Chuck and it worked like a dream so my belief is that the bit is metric while the collet is imperial.
> 
> 
> The collet diameter is .484 or 12.28mm
> ...


The late Pat Warner once said on here what he thought was the outside limit from perfect size and I can't remember exactly what he said but it was 2 thousandths inch or less. A 1/4" shank bit is precisely 6.35mm. If the bit were 2 thousandths inch under size that would 6.23mm, still quite a bit larger that what you measured. So the bit you have should be chucked in a 6mm collet or collet reducer. I have a Bosch bit I bought cheap that I thought was 1/4" but was a 6mm instead and when I tried it in a 1/4" collet it literally fell in. That's too loose. It should have at least the sense of resistance going in or it won't hold.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Just as an aside, if I place a 1/2" bit just inside the MUSCLECHUCK, it sinks in slowly, indicating just how precision the MUSCLECHUCK is.


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

I agree.Harry it kind of bounces with the air pressure. for my curiosity is the 6mm collet, 12mm o.d.? or 1/2"? The reason I ask is that will a 1/2" Muscle Chuck take a 12mm bit and a 6 mm collet? in other words can they be mix and matched?
Herb


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Herb Stoops said:


> I agree.Harry it kind of bounces with the air pressure. for my curiosity is the 6mm collet, 12mm o.d.? or 1/2"? The reason I ask is that will a 1/2" Muscle Chuck take a 12mm bit and a 6 mm collet? in other words can they be mix and matched?
> Herb


I just went out and tried it Herb and it's way too lose, just like my 6mm was in a 1/4" collet.


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> I just went out and tried it Herb and it's way too lose, just like my 6mm was in a 1/4" collet.


Thanks,Chuck, that explains a lot.
Herb


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## Larkan (Apr 13, 2012)

The problem child. My rising router bit occurred while routing the channel for the glass. There is a photo go in on the left


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Herb., the 6mm is NOT the same as 1/4", 6.3mm equals 1/4"
similarly, 12mm is NOT the same as 1/2", 12.7mm equals 1/2"

Here in Australia, in spite of being a Metric country since 1966, we still use the almost universal size router chucks of 1/4" and 1/2".


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Kerry, I like your work. Regarding the groove, I assume that it is only 3mm or perhaps 1/8" and because it was routed a great deal of heat is generated because the waste compacts rather than clears. For such grooves I generally use the table saw and if the blade is narrower than required I then follow on the router table.
The first shot shows another case where the router follows the saw. The other shots show that SHORT runs using a slow feed are OK on the router table.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> I just went out and tried it Herb and it's way too lose, just like my 6mm was in a 1/4" collet.


Charles, I wonder how accurate your bit is. I have tried this out with all three of my MUSCLECHUCKS and the same thing happens. I'm not saying that Derosaengineering, the makers of the MUSCLECHUCK make such claims, I just happened to try it one day out of curiosity.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

It was an Onsrud bit I tried Harry so very accurate. It literally fell into the collet, just like the 6mm did when I tried it in a 1/4". You know something is wrong when there is that much slop in the fit. I have the same experience with my MC as you. If you start the bit into the collet and let go it gradually slides down as it displaces air, but even with a standard collet you usually feel at least a little resistance pushing it in and if you don't there is probably something wrong and it probably won't hold.


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## Larkan (Apr 13, 2012)

Thanks Harry, Yes, it did occur to me the table saw would have been a better way to go. I've another to make and will use the table saw.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

I'm puzzled Charles, in your post #28 you say that the bit just fell into the collet yet in post #34 you appear to say that your first test was NOT with a MUSCLECHUCK!


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Kerry, the Mr. Walter Bloget in your by-line pays me a compliment when he says that a craftsman is one who can cover his mistakes. Well, I have become quite adept at not only doing that but actually turning my mistakes into features! Hare are a couple of examples.


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## sometimewoodworker (Feb 13, 2009)

Larkan said:


> Can I ask how do you think I should resolve the issue? I'm un able to get a 6 mm collet here. My favourite supplier is out of them, another says they won't stock them because they're for europe not here and Muscle chuck want a small fortune to ship one of theirs.


The only place I've seen 6mm bits is in Japan where they are common but they may well be available in Europe 

If you want a reduction sleeve (not a collet) then as has been mentioned leevalley is a good choice.

However if you actually want a collet then quite possibly one of the Festool ones will fit, amazon.com has 1 and the part number for the other is 4994459


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

sometimewoodworker said:


> The only place I've seen 6mm bits is in Japan where they are common but they may well be available in Europe
> 
> If you want a reduction sleeve (not a collet) then as has been mentioned leevalley is a good choice.
> 
> However if you actually want a collet then quite possibly one of the Festool ones will fit, amazon.com has 1 and the part number for the other is 4994459


Caution, This one pictured, looks like it is tapered and not a good idea using it in the Muscle Chuck as it is a straight bore. You want a reducer sleeve, they are a straight o.d.

Herb


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