# What About Those High End Table SAws?



## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

My question for the day is in regard to those $3,500 table saws that I look at and wish for but can't afford and probably don't need. What advantages would such a table saw be for sombody like myself that is just a hobbyist? 

When I became interested in buying a table saw it was just planning to use it to make picture framss and I bought a very cheap little saw from Sears, it was almost a joke and I immediately knew that I wanted something bigger and better. About that time my brother in law had a used saw for sale that he had picked up a garage sale. It was another Craftsman but much bigger, it was also pretty old, but it was better than the first one. About than was when I started reading about saws on the internet and blade alignment. The new, should say well used, saw was way out of algnment and when I attempted to fix it things got pretty hairy. I ended up having to completely disassembling it and modify it so that there was enough adjustment to get it lined up and then after several hours of pure hell, I got it back together.

It was about that time that I decided to purchase the Incra's LS rip fence positioning system and met Mark Mueller, the tech and sales personI for Incra Tools. Shortly after getting the system installed on the saw the motor burned out and could not be replaced, the saw was to old. So, then I was in the market for a new table saw. And started shopping, I had almost made up my mind as to what saw to buy when along came the bright idea of askining Mark for his opinion on what to buy. His words were that in his opinion the best saw on the market at the time under a thousand dollars was one that was sold by Sears under Craftsman's name but had been designed by a person that had worked for Delta. I bought the saw and have besen very pleased with it. It is the same saw that Mark used in his demonstrations at his shows and can be seen in Incra's Demos on the internet. 

Sears no longer sells that saw, they make one almost like it but it doesn't have the cast iron wings and instead has the ones made ot of sheet metal. The point being is that the saw does everything that I want it to do and so I wonder what the high end $3,500 saws would do that mine won't. All that I see is that in an industrial inviorment and when cutting thicker stock and running all day long almost everyday it would stand up longer and not be over worked like my relatively littls saw would. This is why I am asking if I'm missing anything and what would a person gain by buying the more expensive machine. It is just a wonderment, as I'm not going to buy one, but I am just courious, I suspect that this is familiar to most of us, the wondering about such things I meanl

Jerry
C City, TX


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## BRAVOGOLFTANGO (Oct 11, 2012)

I have a 3 week old RIDGID 5412 - Cast Iron TS and it more than substantiates my requirements at this time. The plethora of beastly table-saws on the market are built to a level to fulfill requirements/demands by commercial cabinet makers, furniture builders, high-production businesses, etc. 

The standard WWW aka Weekend Woodworking Warrior simply doesn't need that level of equipment. 

The "gain" as you put it, could (key word) be bigger tables, more working space for larger substrates to cut, higher level of accuracy, more durable hardware throughout, higher amp/hp motors, the list goes on.


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## Chris Curl (Feb 13, 2012)

Jerry, I saw pictures of your saw. In my book, and compared to mine, it IS a high end saw. Heh, I dream about saws like yours!

Of course, mine (a used Skil 3400 that is probably 10+ years old) is probably about as low end as they get.

At some point, it gets to be more about the power and reliability than the accuracy or usability.


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## barking spider (Dec 26, 2010)

I started out with a Rockwell table saw, mostly plastic and stamped metal (1970's). It was better than a piece of junk, but not much.
I then bought a Grizzly or some other import, promptly burned out the motor and replaced it with a beefier American made motor. Then I added a Bisemeyer fence and it suited me well for several years.
I was going to make a house full of cabinets and other things, and I was flush with cash (at the time), so I bought a Delta Unisaw. I took the option of the Unifence instead of the Bisemeyer (regretted that decision). 
What a world of difference!!! Vibration with the Unisaw was nonexistent. It has served me well since mid 1980's, and has never bogged down during a cut. In fact, the only repair I had to make, was replacing the side extension table this year after it had started to cup. 
I did add a Peachtree fence for my Unifence and really like it.
Buy the best saw (or any tool for that matter) that you can afford, IF you are going to use it enough.
I will buy some things at Harbor Freight, but not if I plan on using it all the time with heavy use. Their $1.99 clamps are a bargain, but not sure I would buy production tools from them.


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## BRAVOGOLFTANGO (Oct 11, 2012)

Chris Curl said:


> Jerry, I saw pictures of your saw. In my book, and compared to mine, it IS a high end saw. Heh, I dream about saws like yours!
> 
> Of course, mine (a used Skil 3400 that is probably 10+ years old) is probably about as low end as they get.
> 
> At some point, it gets to be more about the power and reliability than the accuracy or usability.


Haa! I killed my SKIL baby tablesaw a few weeks ago trying to rip a 2x6 into 1xs, just not enough umph in that little guy. Bought it used for $75, lasted a year, new they are only $150 around here.


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

barking spider said:


> I started out with a Rockwell table saw, mostly plastic and stamped metal (1970's). It was better than a piece of junk, but not much.
> I then bought a Grizzly or some other import, promptly burned out the motor and replaced it with a beefier American made motor. Then I added a Bisemeyer fence and it suited me well for several years.
> I was going to make a house full of cabinets and other things, and I was flush with cash (at the time), so I bought a Delta Unisaw. I took the option of the Unifence instead of the Bisemeyer (regretted that decision).
> What a world of difference!!! Vibration with the Unisaw was nonexistent. It has served me well since mid 1980's, and has never bogged down during a cut. In fact, the only repair I had to make, was replacing the side extension table this year after it had started to cup.
> ...


Jack,
I asked for it didn't I? I was afraid that someone like you would write what you wrote and cause the "wana buy a nice new saw" syndrom to set in. Sometimes we just want a new tool because... I can't buy anymore tools this year, my recent purchase of the Grizzly Band Saw and Jointer are about all that I could sell to my wife this year. I sure have wanted a Unisaw since I started looking at them on the web, but just can't justify one, but still the wanting has really set in. Will have to wait and see. No vibration, large table, lots of power, Ummmm.....


Jerry


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## TomB19 (Jun 27, 2011)

I think it ought to come down to making yourself happy. For me, that is what woodworking is about.

If you can afford a nice saw and it helps you enjoy woodworking, I think that's great. For those of us who can't afford the fancy gear, I don't recall seeing anyone in this group being disrespected because of their financial status.

It's all good, as far as I'm concerned.


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## greenacres2 (Dec 23, 2011)

Jerry Bowen said:


> Jack,
> I asked for it didn't I? * I was afraid that someone like you would write what you wrote and cause the "wana buy a nice new saw" syndrom to set in.* Sometimes we just want a new tool because... I can't buy anymore tools this year, my recent purchase of the Grizzly Band Saw and Jointer are about all that I could sell to my wife this year. I sure have wanted a Unisaw since I started looking at them on the web, but just can't justify one, but still the wanting has really set in. Will have to wait and see. No vibration, large table, lots of power, Ummmm.....
> 
> 
> Jerry


LOL--Jerry, i think you were looking for somebody to nudge you!!! Okay, you've been justified, now all you have to do is start working on how to make the sale (and maybe the space). Have a great night--and ENJOY!!


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## kp91 (Sep 10, 2004)

Jerry,

That's my saw as well. It's my 3rd real tablesaw, and hopefully my last for a while. I do get to play with the SawStop contractor version at work a bit, and I'm sure I could always get the Mrs. to spring for a 'safer' saw, but I'm happy with the Craftsman.

My little old Ryobi BT3000 was a fine cutting saw, but didn't have enough mass. I don't think I'm at the point in my woodworking that a 'better' saw would make much difference. I could get a lot more things I 'need' in the shop before dropping an additional pile on a better saw.


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

kp91 said:


> Jerry,
> 
> That's my saw as well. It's my 3rd real tablesaw, and hopefully my last for a while. I do get to play with the SawStop contractor version at work a bit, and I'm sure I could always get the Mrs. to spring for a 'safer' saw, but I'm happy with the Craftsman.
> 
> My little old Ryobi BT3000 was a fine cutting saw, but didn't have enough mass. I don't think I'm at the point in my woodworking that a 'better' saw would make much difference. I could get a lot more things I 'need' in the shop before dropping an additional pile on a better saw.


Doug, sounds like we are on the same page. Like you, my wife's concern for my safety is the thing that would move her to wanting spend the money for the saw stop. In the real world that isn't going to happen. I just can't imagine ever actually NEEDIND more saw than the one that we have.

Jerry


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## barking spider (Dec 26, 2010)

Jerry,
I just looked it up. I paid about $1500 for it back in 1990 (I thought it was older). I sold my old table saw for a few hundred dollars, and had worked a lot of overtime to save up. It was just a priority. It helped that I had a big job ahead of me to help justify the purchase, and my wife supported my decision.
Hey, I'm, as cheap as the next guy. My work truck had 207,000 miles on it when I took over my wife's old Highlander (she got the newer car). it's now our "new" mulch truck, and the old mulch truck was sold off.

Don't kid yourself that the less expensive lighter saws will do "the same job" as the heavier, more expensive saws. I can tell you form personal experience, there is a world of difference. Sure they will all cut wood, but so would a piece of wire if you work at it hard enough.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Jerry I bought a 3hp Unisaw with an Excalibur fence about 15 years ago. I have never touched it after the initial truing up. I can bury the blade in 3" of hardwood and it doesn't complain. It is deadly accurate. I bought it cause I wanted it to do anything that I asked of it and it does.


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## BRAVOGOLFTANGO (Oct 11, 2012)

barking spider said:


> Don't kid yourself that the less expensive lighter saws will do "the same job" as the heavier, more expensive saws. I can tell you form personal experience, there is a world of difference. Sure they will all cut wood, but so would a piece of wire if you work at it hard enough.


Exactly, my beginner used SKIL table (cheapo version) died a few weeks ago while ripping a 2 x 6 vertically, just wasn't enough umph and burned up the motor. My new RIDGID seems to have plenty of power, albeit I haven't tried ripping a 2x6 again, hmm...maybe will try that tomorrow just for good measure. It's under warranty afterall.


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## Bradleytavares (Feb 25, 2012)

If a new TS is what you're interested in then look at the Saw Stop. It's real value is your body part. Those big $ saws are for pros and not a weekend warrior. My DeWalt TS is great. It has an out feed extension and side extension, plenty of power and as with any TS other than high dollar, I should check the fence for paralell, even has a DC port for a shop vac. A set of legs set it off. This is my second one, works well for me.


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## senebraskaee (Apr 29, 2012)

After consuming two 10" contractor saws, one Sears and one Skill, I bought a Unisaw with Beisemier fence. Put a router insert in the side table, wheels under it, and have never fallen out of love since! It runs vibration free, much quieter, cuts more accurately than I can measure, and has much better dust collection. Since I started doing more MDF projects, an above table dust collector is becoming more interesting. Yes these cabinet saws cost much more, but they are a multi-generational tool.


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

senebraskaee said:


> After consuming two 10" contractor saws, one Sears and one Skill, I bought a Unisaw with Beisemier fence. Put a router insert in the side table, wheels under it , and have never fallen out of love since! It runs vibration free, much quieter, cuts more accurately than I can measure, and has much better dust collection. Since I started doing more MDF projects, an above table dust collector is becoming more interesting. Yes these cabinet saws cost much more, but they are a multi-generational tool.


Mike, the rule of "You Get What You Pay For" still applies doesn't it.

However, there is still another truism. When I was waiting for my present table saw to be delivered and while I was setting it up, I was very excited about it and to date it has not disappoointed me. It is, even though it's not an expensive saw like the Unisaw, a pretty darn good saw so this fact has to be considered too in making a decision. And there is still the fact that spending the price of the high end saw is not an issue that can be over looked. 

As usual, the feed back on this thread has been very interesting.


Jerry


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## Maroonram (Jul 10, 2012)

*Table Saw*

I have one of those old Rockwell Unisaw with a 5 HP motor, the type that you need four of your strongest friends to help you move! There are better saws out there today due to new technology. The biggest downside to my saw is that it has a left tilting arbor and of course no riving knife.

On the other hand I have more steel in my table than most saws today ensuring that I always have a consistent level surface and reducing saw vibration. I've also upgraded my saw with a Beismeyer fence and use only a Freud Fusion blade or a Forrest blade. I get superior results with my old saw.

Nevertheless, if I were to buy a new saw or just starting out and planning to pay over $ 3,500. 00 I would buy a Saw Stop. Their cabinet saw runs about 
$ 3,000.00. The safety technology is unsurpassed. It is impossible to cut off a finger. A cabinet blade stops within two teeth cogs when the brake trips. In addition, their industrial model that runs about $ 5,000.00 with a 7 HP motor has more steel than any table on the market. I've seen them run wide open with a nickel on the table and the coin never fell over! And, like all of the new saws they have riving knives instead of splitters.

There are a number of good saws out there today and there are some that are pieces of junk. It still comes down to a good table, an accurate fence from front to rear and a motor strong enough for your needs. You also may want to make sure that your saw doesn't have unique dimensions or construction where no after market accessories will work on it outside of those offered by your manufacturer. How about parts availability or service support?


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## elrodqfudp (Sep 5, 2011)

Jerry,

There are at least two big differences between a table saw on legs and a cabinet saw.

You will find that there is much less vibration and noise.

My wife purchased a Sawstop for me and it has been wonderful. Out of the box all of the adjustments were correct. The fence that comes with the saw is great. I got the caster system and even with the weight of the saw it is not difficult to move.

You can get this saw for about $2500 at,
SawStop PCS175-PFA30 1.75 HP Professional Saw 30 Inch Fence


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## J. Leigh (Jul 15, 2012)

Jerry Bowen said:


> My question for the day is in regard to those $3,500 table saws that I look at and wish for but can't afford and probably don't need. What advantages would such a table saw be for sombody like myself that is just a hobbyist?


I will try and answer your question directly. Mass, accuracy and the ability to maintain it.

Large flat cast iron tables provide mass and a flat surface to reference from.

Large cast iron trunnions provide mass to quell vibrations.

High quality ball bearings and accurately machined bearing carriers produce quiet smooth blade operation with near zero runnout. The larger the measured runnout, the greater the blade wobble, the lower the cutting accuracy.

Higher quality, more accurate rip fences equal safer more repeatable, more accurate cuts.

Riving knives and better dust collection found on quality cabinet saws also promote safer operating conditions. 

Read anything above that only applies to commercial operation and is not needed for "weekend warriors"?

I'm not making a judgement on who can and who cannot afford a quality cabinet saw, just answering a direct question directly.


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Welcome to router forums Joe!

Agreed. Easier to get quality results from quality tooling. Price doesn't always mean quality, but quality does come at a price. 

I can buy 25 cheap bench table saws for the price of the cabinet saw I'm ordering... Difference in the weight between those two is also about 25 to 1. Difference in the quality of construction is night and day. But for what it is, I feel it is the best deal I can find for the quality it can produce. Price, I had to think hard on that. I had to save and make sure that was what I want and forego what other tools I could have gotten with that money. To me, my personal choice, it's worth it to me.

From that, people need to decide what is "acceptable" to them (or their customers) and what can they afford. I can get somewhat quality results from a bench saw if you keep it in tune. I have to work to keep it in tune. I can get quality results from my 40 year old shop saw, but it has it's limitations also. It is closer to the quality I expect and I have to work less to get there. I can get quality results from a hand saw, plane and sanding block. Time wise, it's just going to take me a whole lot longer to get there.

So for me, the question is where do I want to spend my time and effort? Spending extra time to make things be acceptable quality wise or hitting it once with a sanding block to get there and put those pieces together into a finished product?


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

MAFoElffen said:


> Welcome to router forums Joe!
> 
> Agreed. Easier to get quality results from quality tooling. Price doesn't always mean quality, but quality does come at a price.
> 
> ...




Mike, I think that you have pretty much nailed it. In my case and suspect some other folks way of thinking, just having something nice, is important whether or not you can justify or not financially. I'm just going to start tucking some money away and thinking about the saw. Than after I have the money set aside I will make the final decision, I'm pretty sure what it will be. I've pretty much decided on the SAW STOP, just not sure which one, I didn't realize that there are several to choose from. Probably might as well go all the way or almost all the way and get the 3HP machine if I do go that route. What the heck, I can't justify what I have already spent from a financial view point, might as well enjoy the years that I have left, might even build a new shop, but when you are up in years as I am, it's sometimes hard to know what to do. Fortunately I am in about as good of health as anybody can be at my age. The doctor told me that the only reason that I lived through the recent bout with ecoli poisoning was because I am in such good health.

This has been as I guess still is an interesting thread from my view point.

Jerry


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## elrodqfudp (Sep 5, 2011)

Jerry,
You do not have to spend $3500 for a quality table saw. By shopping around I purchased a Saw Stop with a 220 volt single phase motor, 52 inch right extension table, and fence, and casters for $2700. It is a great saw and weighs at least 300 lbs so there is no vibration.
In the long run quality is the only bargain!


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## Maroonram (Jul 10, 2012)

Joe;

That is a most thorough explanation. Thanks for covering all aspects.


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## Sawdust Don (Nov 1, 2012)

An option for a good cabinet style saw, is look for a clean used one.
There are many out there that have had little or no use, at often less then half of new price.

Don


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## AxlMyk (Jun 13, 2006)

Jerry Bowen said:


> I had almost made up my mind as to what saw to buy when along came the bright idea of askining Mark for his opinion on what to buy. His words were that in his opinion the best saw on the market at the time under a thousand dollars was one that was sold by Sears under Craftsman's name but had been designed by a person that had worked for Delta. I bought the saw and have besen very pleased with it. It is the same saw that Mark used in his demonstrations at his shows and can be seen in Incra's Demos on the internet.


That would be a Steel City made by Orion. I have a SC and love it. The Hybrid design is great because the trunions are mounted on the body of the saw, instead of being bolted to the table.


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

AxlMyk said:


> That would be a Steel City made by Orion. I have a SC and love it. The Hybrid design is great because the trunions are mounted on the body of the saw, instead of being bolted to the table.


Mike

That's a wonderful looking saw and fence, from what I could see. I couldn't see it well though. The original picture was quite small and I couldn't see it any better when blown up.

Could you "_please_" take a bigger picture for me of the fence so I could see it better? Am really interested in seeing that.


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## Mking1 (Sep 18, 2012)

Hello Jerry,
I think I understand your situation. My first saw was also a sears bench top model and after a limited amount of use I too wanted something better and more stable, handling big pieces of lumber or sheet goods on such a small saw was not the safest thing to do. So I went back to sears and purchased their new hybrid table saw which was heavier more hp and not too bad for the money, about $700 or so. Then after a year or so the fence, which was make from extruded aluminum, would no longer lock down into position. A screw responsible for the fence locking stripped out. So next I purchased an after market fence for about $300 or so after some modifications the new fence rails fit on the saw tabletop and all was good. That is until the motor’s shaft broke. So after 3 or 4 years and more than a $1000 invested in table saws and I didn’t even have a working tool not including a the price of a new motor. That’s when I started looking a new high dollar cabinet saws in the $3000 plus range, PM and Delta where the saws that caught my eye, mainly due to the quality of construction. After a few visits to the local wood tool store I settled on the Delta saw. And you get at a minimum; bigger table, easy blade change, riving knife, 3 hp, proven rip fence, better dust collection, mobile base, flawless mechanical fit and function all for about $3200. Is that too much to pay? Maybe for some but I’m very happy with my purchase. Also, I’m a retired hobbyist and in no way could I justify that purchase but I’m still happy. Isn’t that the goal? Hope you find your goal.
Miles
Canton, Tx.


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

Miles,
It sounds as though your second table that you bought from Sears might be the the same one that I have. Fortunately my saw has seved me well, but I am just intrigued with high end tools like the one you have purchased. If I had not acquired the new Grizzly band saw and the jointer this year I may have bought a new saw, but when the one you are using is working so well, it's just hard to justify the cost. Maybe you were just lucky that the other saw didn't work out for you giving you a really good excuse to step up to that new machine.
Sounds like things have really worked out well for you in that regard.

Jerry Bowen


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Miles; just out of curiosity, which Delta miter gauge came with it?


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

DaninVan. said:


> Miles; just out of curiosity, which Delta miter gauge came with it?


Dan,
I'm courious as to you suspected or know that thet Mile's saw used a Delta miter gauge. I have said what I'm going to say here earlier on this forum, but will repeat it here. When I was shopping for a new saw I had become acquainted by phone with Mark Mueller of Incra Tools after purchasing the Incra LS fence system. Because of this I asked his opinion about what saw to buy. He told me that the saws, two of them, that he used in his demos was a saw sold by Sears but designed and built by an ex employee of Delta who had started his own company and was marketing his table saws through Sears. When I needed a zci for the saw, I had to buy one for a Delta saw. So, as I said earlier, it sounds like Miles has the same saw that I am talking about. So, Dan what gave you the clue?

Jerry


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Jerry; Miles said it. From his earlier post:
* "After a few visits to the local wood tool store I settled on the Delta saw".*
I was just curious what Delta includes on a $3K machine. Not a criticism at all. 
It's completely understandable that as the price comes down, the mfg. is going to reduce the benefits. At what point those cost/benefits appeal to the individual purchaser is the whole point of price point marketing.


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## Mking1 (Sep 18, 2012)

DaninVan: I do not know which model number miter gauge that was supplied the other than I suspect it was just their standard. It is of the same quality in general as the saw itself but I haven’t used it because I have several after market (Incra) gauges that are more useful.

Jerry Bowen:
I’m glade to hear your saw has satisfied your exceptions. I know how disappointing it can be to put down a large sum of money and not receive that satisfaction. My purchase of that saw was pure indulgence like buying a high performance sport car to drive on the dirt roads in my area. Just couldn’t do it justice.

Miles King
Canton, Tx.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Hi, Miles; I made a run into Vancouver today and made a point of checking out the Delta UNISAW... just looking 
It came with the fence in the pic but the store had the smarts to put it out on display with the Osborne miter gauge instead of the OEM one! 
They had another unit out with a _Delta knockoff of the Osborne _...1/2 the price but not even close on quality control. The $50 price could certainly be justified, I guess.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Oops...
36-L352


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