# Sliding Table Saw with Scoring?



## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

*Sliding Table Cabinet Saw with Scoring?*

I know I'm opening a thread for discussion which will turn up as opinions, likes, dislikes, but that's okay. Here goes.

I have this money coming to me that I have plans to pay off bills, buy an economical work car for Sharon and... a new cabinet saw for myself. Planning on this has been like a teenager lusting after a Lamborgini Countach.

I want a cabinet saw 3+ HP with an independent scoring motor and a sliding table. I want the slider to go to the blade. The scoring blade most be a split type and be able to do dado scoring. I want the miter/crosscut fence for the sliding table that can mounted on either at the rear or the front of the sliding table. I want a sliding table that can handle 48" to be able to do sheet goods, but be setup to be able to do smaller work without it being in the way. To be able to still do ripping. I want a cast iron router table extension. I want a saw that I can use both 10" and 12" blades on. That narrows down the field a little.

I am favoring the Laguna TSS. I know I can get all those features in their saw. With that saw, I can still buy the left table half from the TS saw to have the capability to have a traditional American table to use some of my jigs on. Also with that saw I can get additional sliding table material hold-down clamps. The saw is pricey, but surprisingly it is not the most expensive out there.

I know there's other saws out there. Grizzly has a 10" with scorer that is less than half the price... but it does not have some of the functionality that draws me to the TSS. I see a lot of panel saws with that functionality, but I don't have the work space for a panel saw. I want something in between.

Logistically, I need something available in the US/west coast. There is Grizzly, General, Hammer, Martin, Felder, King and Laguna. All have sliding tables. All are available with scorers. The Altendorf has all that and blade capacity, hydraulic raise, lift and tilt, but has a national debt type of pricing on it of at least twice the price.

Now that it is getting closer to the purchase, I just want to make sure I have info and am making a good informed decision before a purchase like this. I don't want to end up with buyer's remorse because I didn't do my homework... not being able to do something and ending up at a dead end... or ending up having to build something to work around short-comings. I think with his one, it's a reward I want to have for a long time, replacing a saw that I've also had for a long time.

Any insights or recommendations? Soliciting all comers.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

If you end up with one as described, most members, myself included will be drooling for a long time Mike.


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

My personal preference would be saw sled(s) over a sliding table. I think they would be much more flexible overall.


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## Garyk (Dec 29, 2011)

Mike,
Since most of our information on such things come from the internet, personal opinions and etc. I would suggest that you visit local commercial cabinet shops (most hobbyists won't have the cadillac you are talking about) and millwork shops. That way you can get real world opinions. The guys that do woodwork for a living can tell you the good, bad and ugly on such tools. Good luck and I'm jealous....lol
Gary


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Mike; my only contribution would be to thoroughly check out the dealership network vis-a-vis getting parts and technical info, should you ever need it. Way too often this stuff is sold without any serious backup infrastructure...let the buyer beware.
Think in terms of buying a Maserati, then discovering there isn't a knowledgeable mechanic within 1500 miles. 'Nuff said.


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## Garyk (Dec 29, 2011)

Dan makes a good point. Support on a lot of foreign products is scarce. ie: when living in SC I had a local repair shop for anything in my shop, here in the Knoxville area the resource is there but scattered all over the place.


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

DaninVan said:


> Mike; my only contribution would be to thoroughly check out the dealership network vis-a-vis getting parts and technical info, should you ever need it. Way too often this stuff is sold without any serious backup infrastructure...let the buyer beware.
> Think in terms of buying a Maserati, then discovering there isn't a knowledgeable mechanic within 1500 miles. 'Nuff said.


Right. Made in Bulgaria. Motor is an American Baldor which I'm opting for an upgrade from Baldor 3 HP to a Baldor 4.5 HP. That is as high as I could go without having to go 3-phase. Spare parts are in their main location in California. If a warrantee service, they have been known to fly a tech out to repair. They have a good track record with this saw. If need be, I am very handy with machinery.

I grilled the sales rep. (That is a gross understatement.) I sent him a 5 page email on what I do, the configuration I wanted to end up with, questions on this saw and it's accessories. I told him taht a test of sale's knowledge of their products would show with his answers. I gave him a few days and then called him. I was pleased by his answers. He even talked me out of a few options and accessories,, as they wouldn't give me the return on my use or wouldn't fit me.

Each TS/TSS saw is custom built for each customer. They usually don't have them in a warehouse, except the ones they plan to sell at trade shows (And they sold out at the last in Atlanta). The purchase is a 3 month lead time after order for the delivery. Drawback on the custom made- tune of blade alignment is not via the trunions... rather by the saw table. At factory it is set and aligned with pins between the frame and table. (I think this is a strenght in a heavy cabinet saw) If later that adjustment is off, the pins have to be driven out of the way to be able to move the table into adjustment. Only one saw has ever needed that so far.

Just got the quote back Friday night on what I want as a package deal:
LAGUNA TSS Sliding Table Saw with Scoring
- 1PH 4.5HP SHORT SHAFT LT16HD-LT20
- TS/TSS Tablesaw Mobilty Kit
- HOLD-DOWN CLAMP FOR TSS, 9', SHAPER
- Accessory - Tablesaw telescoping for 24" fence for TSS Adds 24" to existing fence This includes the end piece to hold the wood
24" Crosscut Fence for TSS
- Angle extension table For TS, TSS, 2700 Pro
- Clip on support table TSS/TSS 9'
- Positive Stop Miter Support Table, Must also order Pivot Post*Movable frame w/degree stopper	
- PIVOT POST for fence to use Miter Support Table
- Accessory - Straight Line Rip Bracket
- Accessory - Fence Stop (spring loaded)
- Accessory - Flip Stop
- Accessory - Tenoning Jig
- Carbide Tipped Split Scoring Blade - 120mm x 20mm x 24t
- Carbide Tipped Split Scoring Blade - 120mm x 20mm x 12t
- Tablesaw Dado Shim Sets for TS/TSS)/TS 9'/ 4',6', 9' Pro
- Dado Scoring Shim Sets for TS/TSS)/TS 9'/ 4',6', 9' Pro
- Accessory - Other 8" Dado Set x 30mm bore x 40T
- Accessory - Tablesaw SB CT ATB 10" X 5/8" X 60T
- Accessory - Tablesaw SB CT ATB 10" X 5/8" X 80T
- Accessory - Tablesaw Glue Line Rip 12" X 30mm X 36T
- Accessory - Tablesaw Triple Chip 12" X 30mm X 100T

Some things they discounted or threw in. The blades are Professional/Industrial. Notice on the 12" blades and dado's they go with 30mm bore. My 12" blades are 1" but the TSS is 5/8" arbor. I planned on using the 5/8" to 1" bushings I have. I have questions on their choice of 30mm bores. To use on their 12" blades and dado stack on this saw, I'm assuming 5/8" to 30mm bushings, which for a dado stack with that bore, might be a challenge. So I may pass on their finish dado stack which they were discounting from $475 to $275)... Unless they have a good explanation or an easier way.

Since I also know how to and end up easier to do tenons on a sliding table laying the work down on the slider and dadoing them in... I might also pass on the tenoning jig.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Well done, That Man!


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

Hi Mike. After reading your last post, I moved my saw into a corner under a cover......(just kidding).

That sound like a great saw and should last a lifetime.

On the 5/8" or 30mm bore. The stacked dado set I was looking at (CMT) comes with a 5/8" or 30 MM bore, so this size may be common on European saws.


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## AxlMyk (Jun 13, 2006)

MAFoElffen said:


> Drawback on the custom made- tune of blade alignment is not via the trunions... rather by the saw table. At factory it is set and aligned with pins between the frame and table.


With a quality cabinet saw, the blade to miter is adjusted by moving the table.
My Steel City is built like that. That's not a drawback, that's a plus.


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Hi Mike

I've had more than a few years using real sliders in commercial environments - enough to know what I, personally, would be looking for. To get the most out of a slider you really need to look for a saw with at least an 8ft (2.5 metre) carraige - for commercial grade work, 10ft or 3.2 metres is really needed to handle "jumbo" commercial sheets. A carraige that size will allow you to do a full length rip on an 8 x 4ft sheet and is really what sliders are designed to do. Half-size saws limit the length of cut to about 4ft and consequently aren't as accurate or as easy to use _when breaking down larger sheets_ (i.e. they take much more effort). Of course the downside of any saw designed to break down sheets is that they take up a lot of space - for an 8ft slider, or to handle 8ft sheets, you'll need 20ft length x 12ft width to even begin to use the saw to it's potential. One addition I'd suggest if you intend to do much sheet work is the TSS large support table which will be worth it's weight if you do any volume of sheet work. I don't know if the TSS has the facility, but on saws like the Altendorfs and Wadkins the equivalent carraige can be unclipped and removed fairly quickly to turn the saw into a rip saw - otherwise the slider can get in the way of some operations

One good thing about the TSS is that the sliding carraige runs right against the blade. This does not facilitate the use of zero-clearance inserts, but with a pre-scorer and sharp blades that is rarely necessary. On the subject of adjustments I may be misunderstanding you, but in my experience with panel saws you never adjust the trunions to square to the fence. On every saw I've ever used (SCMs, Magic, Griggios, Altendorfs, Wadkins, Robland, etc) the rip fence bar is independently adjusted to align it _to the blade and_ both the sliding carraige bed and the cross cut fences have built-in adjusters - there is no need to measure, either, a five cuts process is used to check the squareness of the crosscut fence (this should be in the manual)

On the subject of 30mm arbors; these are standard for small to medium size table saws (i.e. up to about 10HP) in Europe these days. What isn't standard is the use of dado heads _in a table saw_ which is generally frowned upon _over here on safety grounds (as in any case there are safer alternatives)_

Good luck with your intended purchase

Regards

Phil


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Phil P said:


> Hi Mike
> 
> I've had more than a few years using real sliders in commercial environments - enough to know what I, personally, would be looking for. To get the most out of a slider you really need to look for a saw with at least an 8ft (2.5 metre) carraige - for commercial grade work, 10ft or 3.2 metres is really needed to handle "jumbo" commercial sheets. A carraige that size will allow you to do a full length rip on an 8 x 4ft sheet and is really what sliders are designed to do. Half-size saws limit the length of cut to about 4ft and consequently aren't as accurate or as easy to use (i.e. they take much more effort). Of course the downside of any saw designed to break down sheets is that they take up a lot of space - for an 8ft slider, or to handle 8ft sheets, you'll need 20ft length x 12ft width to even begin to use the saw to it's potential. One addition I'd suggest if you intend to do much sheet work is the TSS large support table which will be worth it's weight if you do any volume of sheet work. I don't know if the TSS has the facility, but on saws like the Altendorfs and Wadkins the equivalent carraige can be unclipped and removed fairly quickly to turn the saw into a rip saw - otherwise the slider can get in the way of some operations
> 
> ...


Thanks Phil.

Sent you a PM. That's what I figured. My concern on getting a 30mm dado set for a 5/8" arbor saw is the bushings needed to make that work... and the risk of shims slipping between them. Would not be a concern if the saw had a 30mm arbor.

Just got off the phone with my sales rep. He agreed. Bushings in a dado set would be a juggling challenge. He put the wrong dado set on the quote. He changed it to the same dado set with a 5/8" bore.

And also added in a 5% discount on the whole order.


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## plainolebill (Oct 27, 2012)

Mike, I've got one of the older TSS saws, I like it. The miter table accessory is a must - else you will be constantly realigning the crosscut fence. With the miter table once everything is setup correctly it is totally accurate when you remove/replace the cc fence. 

I bought a length of 5/16 x 1 1/4 cold rolled bar that fits in the slots on the slider - great for making fixtures. I also bored another hole in the track the slider runs on so that I can lock the slider exactly inline with front edge of the main table, gives me a little more room when ripping. I'm probably going on way to long but my saw came with a real clunky bies style fence so I adapted a Unifence to it and bought a Uni-T bar as well. 

Where are you located?


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

plainolebill said:


> Mike, I've got one of the older TSS saws, I like it. The miter table accessory is a must - else you will be constantly realigning the crosscut fence. With the miter table once everything is setup correctly it is totally accurate when you remove/replace the cc fence.
> 
> I bought a length of 5/16 x 1 1/4 cold rolled bar that fits in the slots on the slider - great for making fixtures. I also bored another hole in the track the slider runs on so that I can lock the slider exactly inline with front edge of the main table, gives me a little more room when ripping I'm probably going on way to long but my saw came with a real clunky bies style fence so I adapted a Unifence to it and bought a Uni-T bar as well.
> 
> Where are you located?


Welcome To Router Forums...

Definitely not "too long?" Please go on as long as you want/can. I am thirsty to hear more on this!

I am located a little southwest of Olympia, WA.

Older? What were the changes from then to now? I heard the motor was one change? Another was the mount for the TSS Swing Arm for the accessory Large Support Table.

I planned on the miter table with the order. I saw some nice advantages and uses for it. But I didn't realize that it also helped with what you mentioned on what would seem to be something as basic alignment.

I wondered about the slot sizes on the slider and where they are in reference to the blade. I have a lot of sleds, jigs and other fixtures that I wanted to adapt from my current shop saw. I asked my rep at Laguna about that. He led me to believe that they were the same as the right slot in the fixed table, same as the left in the Laguna TS. At least in location, even if it was close, I didn't see that happening unless you specifically adjusted the slider for or to that, right? 

What did you not like about their stock rip fence? Was that the same as the current stock fence?

You're saying the slot size in the sliding table is 1-1/4"x5/16" and not 3/4"x3/8"?

So you drilled a hole in the side of slider under the table lock to lock the table where the face of the crosscut fence would be even with the front of the table or the sliding table edge? That's not where it normally is? (The CC Fence Face) Where is the "normal" lock point? I was wondering about where that would be and if I wanted to add more for ripping or with using jigs/fixtures. I thought maybe at half travel, but hard to see with the saw not even ordered yet and here in front of me... Unknown until I actually "see" it. I also thought if locked forward with the angled outfeed table (part of my order), it might add some infeed support. 

Yes. I've done my homework and research, but... I haven't seen one of these the saws "in person." I'm a little nervous about spending around $8000 (in the configuration and with the accessories I want to start with) on just trust and hope, without actually seeing and feeling it. Does that make sense? For me, that's a lot of money, a major investment that I've had to scrimp and save for, from a lot of sacrifices and hard work, for a long time...

EDIT--
I also thought the large support table was not something I needed to start with. Most of the stock I work with now would be supported by the slider clip-on table. I thought if I did find the need, that I would first see if I could fabricate my own "TSS Swing Arm." Experience from welding/fabrication tells me that that accessory/required precision telescopic support arm that helps hold up that accessory large support table is less than $100 in materials for what they want over $1000 for.


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## TRBaker (Jul 5, 2012)

+1 on the drooling.


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## plainolebill (Oct 27, 2012)

Mike, The new style fence is Euro style, so no that isn't what came with my saw. The controls for the new saw are on the left side panel of the saw, mine are located on the front left which is very inconvenient when a large panel is on the slider. The motors are from Eastern Europe rather than being Baldors or whatever they are using now. 

Jigs and fixturing to the sliding table itself - it's an extrusion with a narrow opening and wider underneath. OK, I just measured the location of the slots on the sliding table with respects to the blade - neither slot is even close to the same distance as the miter slot on the cast table. The opening in the slider slots is ~5/8" - so unless they've changed the table dramatically (which I doubt) he's wrong or misunderstood the question. Ask him to take a tape out to the showroom and do some measuring.

Take a look at the cc fence in the photos on the website - the fence pivots where the clamp is, there's a little stop block for the fence to reference off of on the edge of the table. Not much leverage to hold that big heavy fence in calibration - this is the number one complaint of TSS owners and from what I can see they haven't fixed it.

The slider normal locking position is just like you see in the photos, about a foot back from the front edge of the fixed table. I just added the extra hole to give me a little more working room - the base of the slider still sticks out. Yes the standard location is great for support when ripping large panels. BTW, that crosscut fence will be on and off your saw all the time so the miter table is a must, the. Buy one of the flipstops, that thing that comes with the saw is micky mouse - if you get the flipstop you'll either need to put another tape on the fence or measure each time you move the stop. 

I have trouble realigning the riving knife when I've removed it so I pretty much have given up running dadoes on the saw. I route them instead.

Sounds a little negative but this saw really has made a difference in how I get my work done. I can cut identical square pieces quickly, same with cut to length. I made a jig that sits on the slider that enables me to rip identical rails/stiles without using the rip fence. Think of it as a new kind of tool because it really works a lot differently than a standard table saw. 

I'm 70 years old and am not in the market for anymore big machinery but when I look at Laguna's website the saw that really attracts me is the Laguna Pro 6' slider - made in China I know but it has some big league features like the controls on the end of the slider, nice big support table, etc. Once start using a slider the question won't be: do I like a slider but should I have bought a longer one.


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## plainolebill (Oct 27, 2012)

I can't post PMs yet so send shoot me an email polarsea1 at yahoo dot com and I'll send you my phone number if you want to chat more about this. 

Bill


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## rwl7532 (Sep 8, 2011)

I'm thinking of driving to Olympia just to look at it!!!
(after delivery of course

:dirol::dirol:


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

rwl7532 said:


> I'm thinking of driving to Olympia just to look at it!!!
> (after delivery of course
> 
> :dirol::dirol:


Ralph-

You are invited. Thinking with these last 3 weeks of rain that our rainy season has started... 

Still waiting for the VA to catch up with my back pay, which part of that is the balance for this. Thinking when it comes, that it takes 3 months to ship over by container... Maybe planning to have it here in July (start of dry season), so they don't deliver it and it isn't sitting in my driveway in the rain. Caught in the rain with that might be miserable.

After delivery? Wait. You don't want to help me move it from my driveway into my garage? LOL. Don't blame you. (1100 pounds or so) Phil and I have been talking about ideas for that.


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

Been following this with some great interest. I see a new saw sometime within the next few years and hopefully one to last the rest of my journey... Great homework and due diligence! 

This is certainly one sweet unit! Albeit out of my league..


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

" Don't blame you. (1100 pounds or so) Phil and I have been talking about ideas for that."
Mike; the cartage company is the resource to talk to. They _also_ have to deal with heavy crates and aren't likely to come unprepared...request a Hiab, or motorized dolly to be on the truck. Does it come direct, or already unpacked from the dealership? If from the dealership they'll be prepared to move it into position...that's what they do.


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

DaninVan said:


> " Don't blame you. (1100 pounds or so) Phil and I have been talking about ideas for that."
> Mike; the cartage company is the resource to talk to. They _also_ have to deal with heavy crates and aren't likely to come unprepared...request a Hiab, or motorized dolly to be on the truck. Does it come direct, or already unpacked from the dealership? If from the dealership they'll be prepared to move it into position...that's what they do.


Coincidence that Phil and I brainstormed this last night...

It's coming directly from from Laguna (at least formally on paper). Laguna has this "Laguna Tools Delivery" Video that shows a truck with a lift gate showing up to a delivery address (residential shown) with an unpowered pallet jack dropping a packed pallet at the street end of your driveway, where you inspect the packed crate for damage and sign for it... then you're on your own. Video shows the shown proud new owner using "his" pallet jack to move it. That video conveniently fades out as the owner puts his pallet jack under the crate, not showing if he struggled to get that crate up the incline of his driveway. ...Because that guy was struggling to keep his pallet jack from running himself over just going down his slight inclined driveway to the crate. Owner's manual has the assembly instructions.

In their website, they then briefly mention (in fine print) extra costs for moving it into your shop/garage and/or for one of their Tech's doing the assembly / adjustments "for you".

My concern on their definition of "curbside/end of driveway"... Specifically, where they consider that "curbside/end of driveway" for me. I live on a hill. From the street, I have a shared gravel driveway with my neighbor that goes down that hill from the street, that splits down to my somewhat level concrete driveway.

If they consider my "concrete" driveway the drop I'm fine... and have ideas to get it off the pallet and into the garage for assembly.

If they drop to the edge of the street? I'm challenged. I would try to talk to my old boss to borrow one of his excavators or backhoes to sling load it down to my concrete driveway. That would also help to get it off the pallet.

If I couldn't sweet talk him or dare him into a freebie, then he would try to charge me a delivery fee (transport of equipment) plus $150 an hour for use? I'd then be more than challenged, I'd be [email protected]#%ed! Renting a backhoe that big from a rentals is spendee. I'd have to unpack the crate at the street. Install the mobility kit while still on the pallet. Using a impromptu ramp or diesel engine hoist to get it off the pallet onto a piece of sacrificial plywood. Strap it to my truck. Lowering it down the drive (someone driving truck and someone uphill of the saw with the johnson bar steering it) while setting it down each time to throw out plywood in front of it until I get it to the concrete... Then I could winch it over a small wedge to get it over the short lip into my garage.

Another way would be to winch it onto my equipment trailer. Back down onto my concrete driveway. Winch it off. Did I mention yet that my winches are manual powered?

With that much weight, any small void or bump in the rolling surface is going to be a challenge. 

Yes, I've "started" to think about this and solicit ideas. I don't have any misconception that I can do this by myself.


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

plainolebill said:


> I can't post PMs yet so send shoot me an email polarsea1 at yahoo dot com and I'll send you my phone number if you want to chat more about this.
> 
> Bill


Yes, the "under 10 post" thing. Very interested. Sent you an email with my phone number.


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## SteveMI (May 29, 2011)

There have been some cabinet saws on craigslist around me. One of the cabinet saws was a sawstop. Reason for sale on a couple of them were that the shops are going to the sliding tabletop designs. 

Steve.


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

Mike, you should remember that most of the buyers for this type of machinery are professional operations where the method and cost of unloading and installation are taken into consideration.(eg... onto a concrete floor in a warehouse/workshop)

I know that some transport companies will only drop the delivery within 1 meter of the truck. Anything after that is up to you. Insurance is a big issue.

As has been suggested, see if you can get delivery on a HIAB equipped truck and be prepared to 'sling' the driver $100 for him to drive up to where you want in dropped.

The driver, at a minimum, would have to be able to safely unload the crates from the truck by HIAB or power tailgate.


Keep us up to date as the time draws near.


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

jw2170 said:


> Mike, you should remember that most of the buyers for this type of machinery are professional operations where the method and cost of unloading and installation are taken into consideration.(eg... onto a concrete floor in a warehouse/workshop)
> 
> I know that some transport companies will only drop the delivery within 1 meter of the truck. Anything after that is up to you. Insurance is a big issue.
> 
> ...


Oh Boy!!! It would be safer to unload after parking on my somewhat level concrete driveway. If they could take their box van and back it down my drive up to my garage door, they could take it 1 meter into my garage!

Somehow I don't think it will be that easy... But will know more as the time gets near. It is a concern.


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

MAFoElffen said:


> Oh Boy!!! It would be safer to unload after parking on my somewhat level concrete driveway. If they could take their box van and back it down my drive up to my garage door, they could take it 1 meter into my garage!
> 
> Somehow I don't think it will be that easy... But will know more as the time gets near. It is a concern.


I doubt it will be delivered in a box van. You would need a forklift to get it out. Do you have one handy......:jester:

Likely to be delivered on a table top truck. 

Now you have us interested, keep us informed.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Mike; there's no way that the manufacturer has their own dedicated truck to do their own deliveries _everywhere _. This _has_ to be a contracted out delivery, or the sellers company truck(?).
Laguna wants you happy right out of the gate! 
My suggestion would be to formalize the delivery instructions _now_, not when the truck's on its way. Surely the rep is part of the logistical planning? He must have done this many times previously...


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