# Router Accident - Trying to understand what happened



## Darryl (Dec 23, 2007)

I’m not new to woodworking, and I think I understand what happened, but looking for more thoughts.

I had a table router accident last week. 
1.	I would like to share it in hopes that it can stop someone else from repeating it. 
2.	I want to ensure that I understand what might have happened

I want to start out with the fact that I take great pride in being safe, as I think we all do. But I’m here to say that I misread what could happen. I now relate this as similar to a table saw kickback.

See attached pictures

I was doing a flush trim cut (.75” X 1.25” .5” Shaft flush trim bit) using ¼ inch hard board template. By the way, number 4 out of 4, so it was not the first one. The pine board was about 3 feet long with a 10 inch template at the right end of it. I was a couple inches into the cut, guiding the board with my right hand when all of a sudden the board flew to the right and the fingers of my left hand were in the router bit. The rest is history, including the ends of 2 fingers.

It’s been a week now and I think that I figured out what might have happened. 
1.	I think that the board somehow road up off of the bearing and then dug-in big time and fast
2.	I think that the fingers of my left hand may not have been behind the board, but resting on top of it holding it down.
3.	The board launched from left to right like a bullet, so fast that my left hand did not react, but instead went with the board to the bit. Just like a kick back on a table saw.

Does this sound like what may have happened?

Thanks in advance for your help


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## dovetail_65 (Jan 22, 2008)

I bet you never do that again!

Were you trying to take off to much wood ? Taking more than than an 1/8" off is a no no.

What you propose may have happened. The best way to prevent that is to make your set up better. Like adding handles to hold to the template or workpiece. Then your hand would have been behind the wood and could not have slipped off the wood. 

Even if the wood did slip off the template and grab the wood you need to think about where your hands would be if something like that happened and build the safety into the jig, fixture or or even the table you are using.

The pictures are great to show my kids to remind them why never to touch dads tools.

I have cut my finger tip off on a table saw. 100% my fault doing something stupid.  I can add some pictures as well, but I think yours tell the story well enough.

Not to be an ass, but this is 100% operator error as 99.9% of accidents are, IMHO.

I hope you heal fast.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

DAM Darryl

I'm sorry to see you got nailed   

They can get you in a heart beat  


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Darryl said:


> I’m not new to woodworking, and I think I understand what happened, but looking for more thoughts.
> 
> I had a table router accident last week.
> 1. I would like to share it in hopes that it can stop someone else from repeating it.
> ...


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## Darryl (Dec 23, 2007)

I was taking < 1/8 off. I guess I never thought the router could pull a board like that, but when you think about it, 3hp at 25K rpms, it sure can. It goes to show that you must always have an escape route for your fingers. A better setup next time for sure. I think chucking the bit in a hand-held pluge router and stationary work piece.

Thanks for the quick reply, how long did your healing take?


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Darryl

You and Allison now can chat about the same thing almost  she is on the forum almost every day 

http://www.routerforums.com/41820-post6.html


=========


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## Bob N (Oct 12, 2004)

Oh Man that has to hurt like all get out. I am sorry to read of your accident Darryl and hope things heal quickly. I know there is no sure fire way to prevent accidents, but it makes me understand why I use tools like my Grr...rippers so much. Next to the table saw, the router keeps my attention at attention.

Best of luck and thanks for sharing with us as a reminder.


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## dovetail_65 (Jan 22, 2008)

I still feel it, I think about 6 months it took to totally grow a nail and everything, but I lost just the tip, you lost more. They sewed most of my tip back on. It was cut off halfway between the top and bottom of the finger nail. I think my tip grew back so well because my cut was straight. They just sewed it right back on the finger. The router probably cut your finger in a worse way were nothing could be used.

I feel bad for you, that hurts!


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## mailee (Nov 11, 2005)

Sorry to hear of your accident Darryl. Do I take it from your posting that you only had one hand controlling the router? I always use both hands to control the router even if on the baseplate (as in sign routing) I always clamp the timber or if it is small enough use a router mat. I do hope it heals quickly for you and feel for your pain.

Excuse my ignorance I just re read the posting and it was on the router table, Sorry.


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## AxlMyk (Jun 13, 2006)

Damn. That is terrible. It looks like the guide bearing is too far down.
Push blocks. That's what you need to use. I've made several of them for uses like that.
Hope your fingers heal well.


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## Bogydave (Nov 14, 2008)

1st: Sorry about the accident. Hope a good recovery & no restricted finger usage.

2nd: Thanks for posting the accident. 
Very good reminder to keep everyone on their toes that working with routers (as well as other tools) can be dangerous. 
I'm new to routers so this is a real good "this can happen" scenario. 

I made this for free hand cuts just cause I got nervous being close to the bits.
Got the idea from one of bj3 jigs.
Don't know if this would have helped, but maybe. (bottom pics)
http://www.routerforums.com/88918-post29.html 


Again 
Thanks & hope all heals well.


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## cbsjoez1935 (Mar 14, 2007)

Darryl,
I am sorry to see that happen to anyone. When you say the piece pulled off to the right and your left hand was behind the piece, I think I might have a belated answer. From your pictures, it would appear that you were feeding the piece in the wrong direction. That is to say, the piece should have been on the left side of the router bit and you should have been feeding it from right to left. When in the table, the bit rotation is counter-clockwise. I would think you may have hit a knot and were actually doing what is called a "climb cut". With the bit in a pulling direction, it caused the piece to bounce off and pull you in. You did not say how you were feeding it and what I just said may not be the answer, but as Bob & Rick have said before "observe bit rotation". I hope your recovery is quick.
Joe Z.


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## Birchwood (May 13, 2005)

Thank you thank you thank you for posting your experience. It will help the rest of us (I hope) pay CLOSE attention to what we are doing. I recognize those stiff black threads protruding from your finger stubs. Had a few of those myself now and again. It'll heal faster than you think. Sometimes a little sip of good bourbon will help.....after you have finished work of course.
Oh...none of the black threads were the result of a tool accident. I'm the original Captain Cautious when it comes to power tools.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Birch

By the way how is your knife cut accident healing 


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Birch said:


> Thank you thank you thank you for posting your experience. It will help the rest of us (I hope) pay CLOSE attention to what we are doing. I recognize those stiff black threads protruding from your finger stubs. Had a few of those myself now and again. It'll heal faster than you think. Sometimes a little sip of good bourbon will help.....after you have finished work of course.
> Oh...none of the black threads were the result of a tool accident. I'm the original Captain Cautious when it comes to power tools.


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

Darryl,

Thanks for the post.

We should all be reminded every now and then of the danger of the tools we use.

Sorry that it had to be at your expense. get well soon.

Every time I approach the router table from now on I will picture the ends of your fingers.  

James


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## Hamlin (Dec 25, 2005)

Hi Darryl,

Sorry to hear of this accident. I hope that you heal quickly.

I have to agree with Joe Z. It sounds like feeding in the wrong direction. The following I suggest for everyone. Please consider a simple jig with a hold down clamp. There are some jigs on the market to handle such jobs. 

I'd rather talk with you all than about you.


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## jjciesla (Oct 20, 2007)

Damn, that's a hard hit! All my best in your healing process. This post will really get everyone thinking. Thanks for sharing.


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## dovetail_65 (Jan 22, 2008)

Darn it my fingers hurt more and more every time I read this thread!


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## Darryl (Dec 23, 2007)

cbsjoez1935 said:


> Darryl,
> I am sorry to see that happen to anyone. When you say the piece pulled off to the right and your left hand was behind the piece, I think I might have a belated answer. From your pictures, it would appear that you were feeding the piece in the wrong direction. That is to say, the piece should have been on the left side of the router bit and you should have been feeding it from right to left. When in the table, the bit rotation is counter-clockwise. I would think you may have hit a knot and were actually doing what is called a "climb cut". With the bit in a pulling direction, it caused the piece to bounce off and pull you in. You did not say how you were feeding it and what I just said may not be the answer, but as Bob & Rick have said before "observe bit rotation". I hope your recovery is quick.
> Joe Z.


Hi Joe, 
Thanks for the feedback, I was feeding it right to left against the bit rotation, so it was not a climb cut, I would not do those intentionally. I was only cutting the curved part. I know it may sound a little confusing, I started my cut about 10" from the right end.

Thanks for the good wishes
Darryl


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## a1tomo (Dec 3, 2008)

Such a terrible thing Daryl. I'm really sorry!

Perhaps I'm wrong, but truly believe most accidents happen when we get over confident or aren't fully involved in what we are doing. If you feel that the task you are doing is possibly dangerous, STOP and reconsider. Feelings are facts!

Be safe, Tom


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## Lemuzz (Jul 25, 2008)

Were you using a flush trim or patern bit? I have been using a patern bit (well extended) and the bearing slips down the shank. and the work ruined. Maybe this was the case and your fingers were ruined too!


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## dovetail_65 (Jan 22, 2008)

Gotta check that collar for tightness!


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## nzgeordie (Oct 22, 2006)

Heck Darryl. That's just got to have hurt!! How close have we all come to doing the same thing? Could it have been a change in direction of the wood grain? I experienced (almost) the same thing when routing some table legs with a pattern bit and didn't pay enough attention to the changing grain direction. Hope you heal soon, mate.


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## Darryl (Dec 23, 2007)

I just went and checked the bearing and it had not slipped at all. I guess I have been looking for any reason other than operator error, this was one on the few cuts that I have made without using a jig or push block (grippers) and I knew my right hand was safe behind the bit holding the board.

That should have been an indicator to me, I felt that I had to hold the board with my hand, therefore I indirectly knew I was not enough control to use a push-pad gripper.

I never gave a thought to my left hand being in danger because it was over a foot away and getting further away. Had I been steadying the board with a gripper pad, I would still have all of my fingers. Notice in the 1st pic of my router table my blue & yellow gripper is sitting there. I have 4 of them, there's no excuse.

I hope that others who consider themselves safety conscious as I did, can learn that sometimes we get too complacent

Thank you all for the good wishes and kind thoughts, It’s been a crazy week for me Just talking about it on the forum helps.

Thanks Again, too all and Happy New Year
Darryl


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## dovetail_65 (Jan 22, 2008)

You are doing right by working it out in your head.

But if the bearing slipped that is most probably still operator error for not checking it before you began.

How is the injury feeling today? Throbbing? On pain meds? I hope you get better fast.

Did you get right back on the horse or still waiting to turn that thing on?

When I cut my finger tip I used the table saw that night to get over it. Of course my wife gave me the business. I wanted to get the feeling of respect for the tool and not let fear creep in.


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## Cedar (Dec 25, 2008)

That is scarey!
So sorry that happened to you and hope your fingers heal quickly!
Thank you for sharing though,it is a great reminder to us all.
PJ


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## Darryl (Dec 23, 2007)

nickao65 said:


> You are doing right by working it out in your head.
> 
> But if the bearing slipped that is most probably still operator error for not checking it before you began.
> 
> ...


I did a little cutting on the table saw, of course I was getting the business from my wife as soon as she heard it running. 

Can do much of anything yet, I can only have my hand below my heart for short periods. I am off the pain killers as of yesterday. Type is really slow


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## kefjens (Jan 2, 2009)

Jimminy shikes!! Thanks for posting this to teach a newb like me to be very, very careful. I hope you heal quickly.

I think I will be adding a "bit rotation" reminder to the router table top since I'm so new to this art.


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## template tom (Sep 18, 2004)

*Accidents with the router*

It is always sad when you hear of such tragic accidents when using the router and I only hope we can all learn a lesson from some Else's mishap.

Darryl
I hope you get well soon and it will mend and you can continue to enjoy your woodworking projects.

I think if we were to run a poll an how we had an accident with the router I am convinced that the router in the router table would head the poll as opposed to the hand held use using template guides

Recently I have devised a method of doing exactly what you were doing with the router where the fingers do not get near the cutter.( another one of my jigs to show that not all procedures should be done in the router table). I will not post it as I am sure I will get a negative response to the procedure but I am willing to forward to you by email on condition that you do not submit it to the forum.

One of the quotes I use regularly when discussing how a certain procedure could be carried out, and this is a typical example*."Can it be done safely"* and to this end, this is one of the reasons why I have continued to say, "maybe it would be better to make a simple Jig and template to produce the article with greater safety". I have included the method on my DVD with a number of other jigs and templates that enable me to produce articles or do procedures that are best done with the aid of template guides and the router in the *plunge mode*

All I can say is that members must consider the use of the template guides with the router in the plunge mode and not placed in the table as Bobj3 suggests in a previous posting.

Tom


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## Ice (May 20, 2008)

*Be careful*

Hi Darryl,
So sorry about your accident, about 6 months ago i was routing a piece of maple about 24" long. Everything was going great until I got about half way through it and it just exploded. Splinters everywhere, I grabbed my hand that was holding the wood and was afraid to look at it for the longest time. Blood was dropping on the floor and i finally looked at it. I was not sure if I still had a thumb, that is what I was really scared of. I was lucky it was a fleshy wound but nothing time couldn't help. For the longest time I would not run a piece of wood through a machine with my bare hands but I am now getting back to my old ways of using my bare hands. Now I am scared again. I never could find out why the piece of maple exploded. Good luck, Joe


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## Darryl (Dec 23, 2007)

Ice said:


> Hi Darryl,
> So sorry about your accident, about 6 months ago i was routing a piece of maple about 24" long. Everything was going great until I got about half way through it and it just exploded. Splinters everywhere, I grabbed my hand that was holding the wood and was afraid to look at it for the longest time. Blood was dropping on the floor and i finally looked at it. I was not sure if I still had a thumb, that is what I was really scared of. I was lucky it was a fleshy wound but nothing time couldn't help. For the longest time I would not run a piece of wood through a machine with my bare hands but I am now getting back to my old ways of using my bare hands. Now I am scared again. I never could find out why the piece of maple exploded. Good luck, Joe


Thanks Joe,
I know exactly how you felt. All of a sudden WOW! It curious, my wounds left very little blood for the damage it did.
I have some drawer fronts and raised panel doors to make. I get the stitches (the kids call them bugs) taken out next week. All the work I do for awhile will be with jigs etc.

Darryl


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## RustyW (Dec 28, 2005)

Darryl said:


> I was only cutting the curved part.


Sorry to hear about your fingers Darryl. I had a similar experience (although I did'nt get hurt) routing some red oak. Just as the cut transitioned from edge to end grain the bearing guided bit it grabbed and yanked it out of my hands. This may be what happened to you.


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## RustyW (Dec 28, 2005)

template tom said:


> Recently I have devised a method of doing exactly what you were doing with the router where the fingers do not get near the cutter.( another one of my jigs to show that not all procedures should be done in the router table). I will not post it as I am sure I will get a negative response to the procedure but I am willing to forward to you by email on condition that you do not submit it to the forum.


Tom, I have learned a great deal about routing safely by trying your methods. If you have information that may save someones fingers, please don't hold back. Negative responses or not, I'd like to keep all mine.


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## dovetail_65 (Jan 22, 2008)

Originally Posted by template tom View Post

"Recently I have devised a method of doing exactly what you were doing with the router where the fingers do not get near the cutter.( another one of my jigs to show that not all procedures should be done in the router table). I will not post it as I am sure I will get a negative response to the procedure but I am willing to forward to you by email on condition that you do not submit it to the forum."

I have received a few negative responses for my thoughts (specifically on drum sanders for the home woodworker) and at first though aggravated I am not going to change my opinion based on naysayers. Mark my words, in the coming months there is going to be magazines singing the praises of these new cheaper drum sanders and their value to the home wood worker. Just as I am certain the template guides will soon be appreciated more as well.

For every poster that voices a dislike there are several that do not post that are appreciative, I am sure.

So please post on your jig, I am very interested.


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

Darryl said:


> I’m not new to woodworking, and I think I understand what happened, but looking for more thoughts.
> 
> I had a table router accident last week.
> 1.	I would like to share it in hopes that it can stop someone else from repeating it.
> ...



First I wish you the quickest, least painful, most complete recovery possible. It is always painful for all of us to learn of such accidents, and great reminders that power tools can very quickly turn into dangerous "weapons".

My thoughts are that the right side was not adequately supported along the fence. If not securely held against the fence or bit bearing, the router bit, no matter what type, will shoot the wood in its direction of rotation. Your case is one of the best I have ever seen for use of horizontal featherboards.

Best of luck and best wishes.

This forum had entered a sort of "silly season" but it takes something like this incident to bring us all back to the reality of the danger of what we do.


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## Ice (May 20, 2008)

*Work You Need To Do*

Hi Darryi,
I sure wish you lived closer to south Florida I would make the raised panels, etc. for you. This is the time you need us. Sorry, Joe


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## reuelt (Dec 29, 2008)

*Safety First*

Hi Daryl,
Sorry for what happened. Hope your wounds heal soon.

I appreciate your wish to help prevent such things happening to others so I hope you don't mind me putting ideas in question form not fault finding but education for all router table users.

1. You mentioned that you were a flush trim bit. Correct me if I am wrong. From the 2nd picture you were actually using a "pattern bit". Flush trim bits have bearings at the end. If the bearing (& template) were on top, could it have been safer?
2. Would an "anti kickback" flush trim bit have avoided such an accident?
see
http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?FamilyID=1863
3. Was there a guard for template routing on the table when the fence could not be used?
4. Would a push block or glued-on handle have made things safer?
5. Is hand held template routing really a safer alternative? Probably yes if we only talk about fingers/hands getting into the blades. Hand held routing on the other hand produces lots more of uncapturable fine dust - very bad for our health. 
Manual trimming using "spokes shave" or "block planes"?
CNC routing?
6. Is it necessary to run at 23,000RPM for a 3/4" bit?
7. Was the trimming done too deep at a time? An "anti kickback" flush trim bit would have controlled that rate in a more fool-proof way.


Hope we all come out with constructive recommendations for all other woodworkers ......


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## captain38 (Dec 23, 2008)

First off, I am SO sorry to hear about your accident! Being an avid guitar player I was absolutley cringing at the sight and thought of this ever happening to me! With that said thanks so much for posting this. I hope that those images will be burned into my mind every time that I get close to a router. The first few times I used a router I was EXTREMELY unsafe and nearly took off some of my fingers and got a running router in the stomach.


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## blurry (Jan 14, 2009)

sorry to hear. thanks for sharing - sometime a reminder of the hazards helps keep us safe.


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## Ghidrah (Oct 21, 2008)

We have a dangerous trade and or hobby for some. In 25+ yrs in the construction trade I've seen some bad ones and been on the wrong end for some myself. 

Darryl, I am so bummed for you. I hope you heal physically and psychologically and that the accident doesn't cause you to shy away from creating and building. I also apologize if my prying is too invasive. I'm sure I'm stating the obvious, I'm trying to quantify the mechanics of the event in my own mind.

The image of your damaged hand impresses one as being strong and with mass. What the heck could have forced the project to bolt right when all effort is moving left? I woulda thunk an event that forced the template so violently right would have provided an obvious big honkin dig in the temp and project. The only time I had mat buck was when it was between the bit and fence. 

Is that hard board at the bottom of the right end of the project? 
May I ask why it is there?
I think I can see where the project stopped feeding into the bit, although even with my glasses there only seems to be about 10" of minimum chatter on the project.

Looking at the cuts on your fingers if your left hand was on and gripping the push block you may have opened your hand as the board bucked right with your fingers pointing down. Maybe the left end of the template moved away from the bit and toward you as your right hand moved right and away from you. The angle of cut on the index finger suggests it was between the bit and template at about 135º.

Does the distance from the table edge to the bit cause you to lean into the table? Was the floor clear of debris and sawdust?

Know this, your accident makes one pause to consider the consequences, and no offense, but I'm going to copy one of the pics to my imaging software to keep a pic in my shop as a reminder.


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## Deanfinger (Jan 9, 2009)

As just having starting using the router table your account is a sobering reminder that beginners really should take the time to understand what they are dealing with on these tools.

Thanks for sharing and sorry you experienced it.


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## Glenmore (Sep 10, 2004)

Sorry to see this Darryl. I feel awfully lucky with my kick back on the table saw that I had I had a hard time not reaching into the blade but I let it fly right into my guts. Thank god I have a lot of padding there. Hell of a way for you and us to learn of how accidents happen. But a lesson learned.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

I have only just seen this thread and there is no doubt in my mind that the template was too thin, therefore the bearing not high enough. I normally use 9mm MDF when routing by this method and keep pressure on the workpiece both down and towards the cutter with my fingers just clear of the cutter area.


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## Pherdnut (Jan 26, 2009)

Looks to me like the template was just too short. The whole setup tipped back with the end of template as a fulcrum when your hand rested on a part of the board that wasn't resting on the template causing it to angle up a bit. The bit caught the angled up portion of the template not to mention the wood at an angle to the grain, and that's where things got ugly. That's why the jagged cut shows the board lifting off into the air like that.

It looks like it would be really hard to keep the whole thing level with that short template and nothing to keep the rest of the project flush with the table. My instincts would have screamed at me on that one. I hope I maintain that level of healthy paranoia around my router and your pictures certainly help. That looks painful and must have been one hell of a shock. Thanks for the potent reminder.


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## Lemuzz (Jul 25, 2008)

This thread in an excellent reminder that all power tools are potentially dangerous. I want to thank Darryl for sharing his painful experience with us and to all who replied to the thread. There have been a number of good suggestions how this accident may have happened, and these may help to prevent further accidents from happening by knowing what can and does turn to custard from time to time. I have worked with tools and machines all my life and while I have all my digits intact I acknowledge many close calls. I frequently ask myself while working "If the unexpected happens is the ruined job worth more than my fingers" the answer is always *no *so don't try to hold the work tightly and risk my fingers being pulled into the cutting tool. The best advice however for all tools and machines is to keep guards in place, wear safety goggles and hearing protection, don't overload the machines horsepower capacity (as the machine can unexpectedly start up after a near stall and knock the work from your hands ) use push sticks and featherboards where appropriate, keep the work area clear and don't allow children in the work area. Thanks again Darryl for sharing what can and does happen and hope this can prevent others from the suffering you have been through.


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

"My thoughts are that the right side was not adequately supported along the fence. If not securely held against the fence or bit bearing, the router bit, no matter what type, will shoot the wood in its direction of rotation. Your case is one of the best I have ever seen for use of horizontal featherboards.

Best of luck and best wishes.

This forum had entered a sort of "silly season" but it takes something like this incident to bring us all back to the reality of the danger of what we do.[/QUOTE]

Darryl, I would be very interested to know how you are doing, as Ghidrah mentioned both physically and psychologically. We are community of caring people with a common interest in router-centered woodworking, and when one of us hurts, we all hurt.

After more thought, I think your accident also presents a very good case for vertical featherboards. 

I have not seen a posting of the method Template Tom has devised. I have been "indisposed" recently so may have missed it, but I cannot find it.

"Recently I have devised a method of doing exactly what you were doing with the router where the fingers do not get near the cutter.( another one of my jigs to show that not all procedures should be done in the router table).

Template Tom: please post your method. I totally agree with Nick and Rusty that your method would be very greatly appreciated, There might be a few nattering nabobs of negativism, but they are flotsam and jetsam of history, the litter by the road of progress, tha ants at a picnic, the mosquitos on an outing. 

I do explicitly exclude from my description those who honestly discuss alternatives and other ideas and have other ideas. We need diverse ideas in order to progress and learn. Tom, you have a very well developed alternative theory of routering, and all members of the forum (and the lurkers) would greatly benefit from learning more of it.

Thanks


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## dgage (Jan 6, 2009)

This thread is a reminder to me to not take things for granted. Hope you heal quickly. God Bless.


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## GBM (Dec 18, 2007)

I am really sorry about your accident. I have been super careful about hand safety because my father lost the end of his thumb in a highschool table saw accident during the 1930's.. they were using used boards and a nail caused kickback... of course one has to be positioned wrong for that to catch your hand.. but that was in the primitive days with regards to safety. 
Have you checked to see if some metal was in the wood ? 
I have not read all this thread.... on slow dialup and have other stuff to do this week...LOL


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## Darryl (Dec 23, 2007)

Thank you for all of your feedback, thoughts, ideas, well wishes and support. 

I am very thankful that I only lost half inch of two fingers. In the past I have recovered from many cuts, surgery, etc. But when the healing was complete, things were pretty much back to normal, nothing was missing. The adjustment to the missing pieces has been more difficult than I ever anticipated, but again, I am thankful that my injury was minor compared to others have had to live with. I can not even begin to imagine what major amputees go through. My heart goes out to them.

Thanks for asking, the use of my fingers is improving a little everyday. The feelings and sensations of the healing process are unique from any experiences I have ever had. The ends of the fingers feel like the sides of the finger when they touch things (I guess that’s because the sides are the ends now). It appears that I will have full use of my fingers; they just can’t do things they use to, without fingernails it’s difficult to pick small things up, screws, coins, etc. I still can not hold screws to start them and things like that.

The doctors told me that I should use my fingers as much as possible. They were too tender to deal with slivers, abrasions, etc of wood working, so I turned to another one of my northern Wisconsin winter time pleasures; I have been an avid snowmobiler for 45 years. The doctor said the movement and vibrations would be helpful and he was right. I had the pleasure of riding a thousand miles since mid January. The recent rain took all of our snow away and with all of the standing water on frozen ground (at least a couple feet of frost), I doubt that we will see much more snowmobiling this year.

I am working my way back into the shop little by little, day here, day there. I have not started up the router table yet. I have limited myself to the saws, jointer, planner, sanders and a little finishing. I’m anticipating making a few raised panel doors in the near future.

I can type again and have been doing some design work for future projects.

I have included a couple of new pictures of my fingers that look a little more humanoid, it’s truly amazing how the body heals itself.

Thanks again for all of your support and allowing me to share my stupidity.

I have come to the conclusion that someone mentioned “Most of the problems are due to the operator.” I thought I was using a safe method and I now know that was wrong. I would like to leave you all with one thought. 
It is imperative that each time we start a new operation on a piece of equipment that we ask ourselves.
1.	“Is this operation safe?”
2.	“Do I have to do this operation in this manner?”
3.	“Is there a safer method?”
4.	“What could go wrong?”
5.	“What would the results be?”

Always Remember, 
Do it the safest way, body parts don’t grow back!

Darryl


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## template tom (Sep 18, 2004)

*Routing with Tom O'Donnell*

Darryl

I was not sure if you had completed all the pieces you required for your project. I would only be too happy to complete Tom's request on how I would have considered producing the shape. In a sense it is no different to the back legs of the chairs I produced with the router, this was done with the router and the aid of the template guides. 

I suppose the five points you have listed, I would use on numerous occasions especially when I was teaching the blind how to use a router
1. “Is this operation safe?”
2. “Do I have to do this operation in this manner?”
3. “Is there a safer method?”
4. “What could go wrong?”
5. “What would the results be?”

If you do have more to produce post the actual sizes, it may also be necessary to list the size of template guides you have and also the size of the straight cutters. I will produce a full size drawing of the Jig and Template I would use.

Tom


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## Darryl (Dec 23, 2007)

Hi Tom,

Thanks for the generous offer, the last piece was completed by hand. I am very interested in your method of routing and plan to pursue it in the future. What is the best way to pursue your method of routing?

The urgent projects that I have in front of me at this time are all cabinet type work, face frames and raised panel doors.

Thanks again

Darryl


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## template tom (Sep 18, 2004)

Darryl said:


> Hi Tom,
> 
> Thanks for the generous offer, the last piece was completed by hand. I am very interested in your method of routing and plan to pursue it in the future. What is the best way to pursue your method of routing?
> 
> ...


Darryl;

It is great to hear that you are going to continue with your hobby and you have a large project ahead of you. When I was in the cabinetmaking business I sent away for the doors already constructed, I know it is not the same but time was the factor when there were say 30 doors to construct.

*"What is the best way to pursue your method of routing?"*

I am working on that right now as I hope to have a web site in the near future where all the information can be displayed, I suppose similar to what Bob and Rick are doing. Meantime if you do have a question send me an email.
Tom


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## wrestlingstud13 (Feb 26, 2009)

I had a kid that was in my shops class in high school that was routing the panel for a raised panel and the board kicked back much like this.. He was however using a fence but it still kicked back and sent his fingers into the router. He lost the tips and there was nothing left to sew back on but torn up meat... bad stuff, sorry to hear about your finger darryl


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## FatFreddysCat (Apr 5, 2009)

Darryl

Thanks for reminding us all that we're not invincible. I hope the fingers are recovering, although from experience it may take quite a long time before you get anything near full use back. I've had stitches in one thumb (13 stitches) and also reconstructive surgery on my other thumb because of router accidents, although mine were on larger static pin routers. The principles are the same.

FWIW I try to trim any lippings or overhangs down to the smallest possible amount before using the router. Small router bits aren't good at handling big cuts and one should never try to machine off more than 1/2 the diameter of the cutter, i.e. a 1/4in diameter cutter won't handle more than 1/8in overhang. I'd normally restrict trim cutters that size to laminate or veneer edgings. Try taking 3/4in x 1in high overhang off with a 1/4in diameter bit in a 1 HP router and you're just inviting kickback. For solid wood lippings I make it a practice to use 3/4in or 1in diameter bits in a 1/2in router.


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## woodaholic (Apr 17, 2009)

Darryl,

I know us posting doesnt bring ur fingers back but time will heel it. Im a TOTAL noob at routers and i just recently went and purchased the Dewalt DW618 and alot of other goodies such as skill saw, jig saw, cordless drill etc etc.

I helped my grandpa in the woodworking shop many of times and never had nothing happen. But you never ever know. I cant say what happened here cuz i truly dont know. 

I have almost completed my router table ( 75% ) done I'de say with out any accidents. But I still got to install a few things that involves using the router.

I promise the next time I use the router I WILL have sumthing holding the wood down and what not. Thanks for the post it really opened my eyes and kinda punched me and told me to be safe every second when the machines are turned on.

BTW: Me being a noob, On a table u feed the wood from left to right.. CorrecT? Or do you base it on the direction the bit is spinning. If so which way? counter or clock wise. THANKS FOR EVERYONE ON THE FORUM.. I will have pictures of the table very soon 

James


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## Noob (Apr 18, 2009)

This thread was posted before I got here, so I'm glad it was resurrected because it was an eye-opener. Haven't built my table yet, but when I do I'll make sure to have some safety things on there like what Bogydave posted. I found a similar one to Bogydave's guard but attaches differently since my fence may be made differently (Photo 53): Freehand Guard LINK

I wonder if a starter pin would have helped too since all the pressure of holding the material wouldn't have been on the small contact point between the bearing and the template.

**By the way, I think someone has that site linked above as a signature because I've seen it a couple of times.


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## FatFreddysCat (Apr 5, 2009)

woodaholic said:


> BTW: Me being a noob, On a table u feed the wood from left to right.. CorrecT? Or do you base it on the direction the bit is spinning. If so which way? counter or clock wise.


James

If you are using a router table the feed direction is ALWAYS from RIGHT to LEFT. This is because the cutter rotates anti-clockwise and you need to feed in such a way that the cutter cannot grab and pull-in the worlk (i.e. away from your hands). It's possibly also worth noting that the width of cut should always be less that one half of the diameter of the cutter (e.g. 1/4in or less on a 1/2in diameter cutter) and the depth of cut on a given pass should ideally never be out of square, i.e. a 1/2in diameter cutter working a groove (dado) shouldn't be taking more than a 1/2in deep cut on each pass. These figures are obviously maximums, not advised norms!

As to using a lead-in pin - if the work is carried on a template the lead pin is rarely required as the template lead-in should accommodate any start of feed issues. The other thing to do, though, is to carefully hog away most of the waste on the bandsaw or with a jigsaw first to leave a 1/8in (3mm) or so margin to machine away. This has the additional advantage of being safer, putting less strain on the router and giving a better quality end piece (because the router is much less likely to slow dorwn, stall, etc)


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## woodaholic (Apr 17, 2009)

thanks alot fredy! nice tips

JAmes


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## Birdflu (Nov 6, 2007)

Ouch !!!

One thing I don't see in the pics : Where is the FENCE?

A fence might limit the depth of cut (into the wood and fingers).

A tip I once heard "Never attempt to catch a falling knife - let it fall"

Possibly this may hold true - don't attempt to hold a flying board - let it go..

FWIW.

Hope you heal well !!


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## danconway327 (Sep 30, 2009)

Darryl I am aglad you are doing better, I will post some of your pix in my shop {or laminate to my router table/table saw} for a reminder.

1. “Is this operation safe?”
2. “Do I have to do this operation in this manner?”
3. “Is there a safer method?”
4. “What could go wrong?”
5. “What would the results be?”

Always Remember, 
Do it the safest way, body parts don’t grow back!


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## Old_Chipper (Mar 30, 2009)

Darryl, Looks like you are healing nicely. Thanks for posting. Good reminder for the rest of us. Don't beat yourself up too much. just learn from this. It's hard to know what really happen. Looking at your pictures I can see a few things I would have done different. I prefer the bearing be topside, Bearings on the shaft often slip, no matter how often we check them. I would have had handles on the template, It's hard to tell if you had enough surface area to keep it from tipping. Thanks again, It got us all to think, something we sometimes stop doing after 50 yrs of doing it.
Good luck, I don't I need to tell you , "think safety"
Harry


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## Mackhill (Sep 19, 2009)

Gosh, that was an eye-opener. Glad you are healing.
I've bee lucky, no major cuts from tools yet. I had a close call years ago on a radial arm saw. I had never used one before and a friend let me use his. I cross cut a board and came within a 1/8" of cutting off my thumb which was holding the board. 
All these tips are great!!


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## smokey1945 (Jan 12, 2009)

Wuuuu!!!! That hurt!
Thank you for posting that. I know it will help me be more careful.
I hope and pray that you heal quickly with no problems.
With just a quarter inch template I wonder if maybe a half inch templete would have prevented it! It sure wouldn't take much waste to cause the board to ride up on top of it.
Smokey


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## Jack Wilson (Mar 14, 2010)

I am 47 now, and have been in construction for 30 years...I have only had one table saw kick back that I can remember and though I got hurt, I didn't "get hurt"... I am on several forums and seeing these accidents is a wake up call for me. Daryl I am really sorry about your accident, it hurts me to look at your hand. I will start using push blocks and push sticks, I have been at this too long...

Thanks for sharing this as a heads up

Jack


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

I missed this post the first time threw.. Whew! Late last week I my Marc Sommerfeld's 6-pc cabinetmaking set arrived. After watching his video previously I had them "throw in" a couple of push blocks. Yes, I know I could make them.. and I already own a pair but I bought these intending them to be sacrificial... i.e. screw them to boards etc, to ensure safe cuts.

Back to Friday.. I decide to make my first pass at a raised panel door using some scrap red oak. The cope cuts went fine. The raised panel bit.... well... I don't know how many of you are aware of this but Marc's raised panel cutter is 3-1/2" diameter and has a back cutter. The block of wood was 9" x 12" and although I'd seen Marc use push blocks I figured I could do it better by hand. Well, as I was cutting the second pass I noticed a lot of chips were coming off. About then I realized the board has lifted up so the back cutter was cutting way too deep. Fortunately it didn't grab and I was able to back the piece out from the cutter. Firewood created, but no damage. I decided it was time to call it a day, come back rested and in the meantime think everything through.

Come Saturday the push blocks were out and in use. You know what else? The scrap wood raised panel door looks great. Kudo's to Marc.. the Easy Set jig and same length bits (with rubber grommet bit stoppers) work fabulous.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Jim

I will 2nd. Marc Sommerfeld's way, I'm big fan of his way and have been pushing his way for about 5 years now..many may say but I don't make cabinets etc. but his way will work for almost any project you make on the router table..like little boxes,shop equipment cabinets etc.

======= 



BigJimAK said:


> I missed this post the first time threw.. Whew! Late last week I my Marc Sommerfeld's 6-pc cabinetmaking set arrived. After watching his video previously I had them "throw in" a couple of push blocks. Yes, I know I could make them.. and I already own a pair but I bought these intending them to be sacrificial... i.e. screw them to boards etc, to ensure safe cuts.
> 
> Back to Friday.. I decide to make my first pass at a raised panel door using some scrap red oak. The cope cuts went fine. The raised panel bit.... well... I don't know how many of you are aware of this but Marc's raised panel cutter is 3-1/2" diameter and has a back cutter. The block of wood was 9" x 12" and although I'd seen Marc use push blocks I figured I could do it better by hand. Well, as I was cutting the second pass I noticed a lot of chips were coming off. About then I realized the board has lifted up so the back cutter was cutting way too deep. Fortunately it didn't grab and I was able to back the piece out from the cutter. Firewood created, but no damage. I decided it was time to call it a day, come back rested and in the meantime think everything through.
> 
> Come Saturday the push blocks were out and in use. You know what else? The scrap wood raised panel door looks great. Kudo's to Marc.. the Easy Set jig and same length bits (with rubber grommet bit stoppers) work fabulous.


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## de_schwartz (Apr 25, 2010)

wow, I always see things like this coming into my work...glad you are okay, hope all is well. Something to think about for me..


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## Hamlin (Dec 25, 2005)

BigJimAK said:


> I missed this post the first time threw.. Whew! Late last week I my Marc Sommerfeld's 6-pc cabinetmaking set arrived. After watching his video previously I had them "throw in" a couple of push blocks. Yes, I know I could make them.. and I already own a pair but I bought these intending them to be sacrificial... i.e. screw them to boards etc, to ensure safe cuts.
> 
> Back to Friday.. I decide to make my first pass at a raised panel door using some scrap red oak. The cope cuts went fine. The raised panel bit.... well... I don't know how many of you are aware of this but Marc's raised panel cutter is 3-1/2" diameter and has a back cutter. The block of wood was 9" x 12" and although I'd seen Marc use push blocks I figured I could do it better by hand. Well, as I was cutting the second pass I noticed a lot of chips were coming off. About then I realized the board has lifted up so the back cutter was cutting way too deep. Fortunately it didn't grab and I was able to back the piece out from the cutter. Firewood created, but no damage. I decided it was time to call it a day, come back rested and in the meantime think everything through.
> 
> Come Saturday the push blocks were out and in use. You know what else? The scrap wood raised panel door looks great. Kudo's to Marc.. the Easy Set jig and same length bits (with rubber grommet bit stoppers) work fabulous.


Jim, if you consider getting his dvd's, don't wait. They are well worth it. A lot of good info. on them. It took me a few yrs. before I started believing in Marc's way as well. So, in short, I'm with Bj his method.


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## indnajns (May 13, 2010)

Shew, I will take coming across this as an omen and figure out the proper way to do what I'm trying to do. I'll go put in a post now. Hope life has resumed by now for you, sir. Thank you for the pics and wake up call.


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

Oh yes.. I've got his DVD's too... great stuff! I also his rubber washers full-time. I've read that with my PC7518 you needed to install a wooden dowel first. Well, one washer was too short but 3 was just perfect. I installed then for the RP bits but leave them in full-time. Now I don't have to mess around with *any* bit and bottoming out. By inserting the bit and pressing down to the washer I know I've got a good grip on the bit and yet it isn't bottomed. I know they're cheaper elsewhere but at about $4 for 8 as part of my order, the freight and messing around would have "cost" me more than that.



Hamlin said:


> Jim, if you consider getting his dvd's, don't wait. They are well worth it. A lot of good info. on them. It took me a few yrs. before I started believing in Marc's way as well. So, in short, I'm with Bj his method.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Darryl said:


> 2.	I want to ensure that I understand what might have happened


Hi Darryl:

I just picked up on this thread so I'm hoping someone else answered it but just in case, I've stuck my $0.02 in and my neck out.

I hope that you weren't using that bit with the post beside it? From what I can see, there is no bearing on the bit. That safety guide pin looks kinda funny too. I also note that it appears that you are to the left of the bit when you should be to the right. 

Here's what's wrong with your picture. You can only use a safety guide pin when you're using a bit with a bearing (for me the bearing has got to be on the top of the bit, above the base plate.) For the bit you're using, you need to use a fence. Alternatively, you use the bearinged bit with a template but you would still use a safety guide pin. The bearing on the bit must ride on a template or directly on the workpiece. 

Now, from what I can see in the picture, if there is a bearing on that bit, it is below the base plate and useless. There's nothing to stop the workpiece from being grabbed by the bit and tossed across the room. You didn't get kickback, you got your workpiece launched. 

You can get kickback when a bit catches on a knot or something that causes the bit not to cut. With the guide pin, you can carefully work through most imperfections in the wood without mishap.

The way a guide pin is supposed to work is to bring the workpiece up against the guide pin and then carefully, using the guide pin as a fulcrum, bring the workpiece into the bit and up against the bearing. Then, carefully, run the workpiece past the cutters using the bearing on the bit to control the workpiece. the guide pin is downstream of the bit, pushing the work into the bit and the finished cut exiting upstream of the bit.

By the looks of things, you put your hands upstream of the bit, on the workpiece. I put my hands only on the downstream side. I'd rather get kicked away than pulled into the bit. When my hands are past the point of support by the guide pin, I rotate the work slightly so if it is grabbed by the bit, the workpiece gets stopped by the guide pin. I also use push blocks, where possible.

By the way, what happened to you also happens when people are wearing jewellery, long sleeved shirts or, jackets etc. 

I have a philosophy that requires I always have something more than air between me and the bit; be the bit rotating or flying. I also have a kill switch beside my left knee and I practice with it before I turn on the router. I also practice and try to imagine what should happen as I run the workpiece past the bit. I also make sure that my infeed and outfeed sides are clear and I have a place to get and put pieces as they're run through. I also wear a leather apron. Since my operation I also stick a piece of plywood across my abdomen because it's still tender. If the workpiece gets launched the apron should stop it but I still need to spread the shock over the widest possible area.


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## tom819800 (Apr 9, 2010)

UMMMMMMM OUCH...... sorry to hear WOW man... I have always had the fear of the wood or the router taking off like that ....I hope you heal fast....


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## Jerry Schofield (Aug 4, 2010)

Man! Hate to see pictures like that. Sorry about your fingers. My only comment would be to ask what would you do different if you had it to do over?


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## bobbotron (Jan 7, 2010)

Just built my first router table, after reading some of this thread, I went out and purchased a feather board and two push boards (already made a push stick.) Safety first!


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

bobbotron said:


> Just built my first router table, after reading some of this thread, I went out and purchased a feather board and two push boards (already made a push stick.) Safety first!


A couple of wise and prudent purchases Rob...well done..

there is no substitute for safety...


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## dutchman 46 (May 23, 2007)

Sorry to hear of Your loss. You will do just fine in about 6 to 9 months. I had my first accident about 10 years ago. and did not lose My thumb. Mine is barely shorter, but very sensitive at the inner side of My rt thumb. Then I do somrthing like grip a board tightly, it sends Me on a rampage. The meat on the edge of the thumb is kinda mixed with the nail. The left middle finger is 1/4 in. shorter and doesn't often hurt. Sometimes, the nail cuts into the skin. All very livable, but bothersome. Hoping that Yours goes better, If the nails are gone, You should be fine  By the way, neither one involved the router.


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## OPG3 (Jan 9, 2011)

Ouch! Been there, done that and trying to not ever do a repeat performance... I had a router accident while in the manufacturing plant where I was the director of product development. We were making concrete forms, for which I am the inventor and an employee needed to make an ovoid hole on an oddly shaped heavy plastic part. He handed me his Bosch RotoZip with a skinny spiral downcut bit. I should have clamped the piece, but instead tried to do it quickly while he held it. BAD PLAN. I had the RotoZip in one hand and was helping to hold the form wall up with the other. BAD PLAN. I let being in a hurry pressure me into doing something STUPID. The bit and RotoZip had a mind of their own and "gyroscoped" back to my other hand faster than my Boston Terrier can fart. It scooped about 1/4" x finger width and left only soup - so the grow-back process was slow and painful. As long as I have two hands, I'll keep them both on my router from now-on... *OPG3*


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## papawd (Jan 5, 2011)

I hope all heals well being a safety facilitator at work I have seen a few injuries most heal well these days and I hope You get full function of your fingers back


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## Micah (Oct 11, 2010)

I am so sorry. Thanks for sharing. I am a beginner and it is a little scary. This is a good reminder.


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## tcozadoh (Oct 2, 2009)

I think the minimum that you should have had was some kind of bit guard. This protects us from our stupidity. We all have too much of that!


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## scant (Feb 22, 2010)

Had almost the exact same cuts to my fingers, only a different method. Very painful and took about 6 months to heal but......amazingly the ends on my finger actually grew back with the nails regrowing. Only have very short piece of each finger gone . Maybe .1 percent.

Can use them just fine. However I can tell when its about to rain cause they hurt like hell.
Good luck.


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## Micah (Oct 11, 2010)

*Template a little thin?*

I'm a newbie, so I'm not voicing an opinion, just asking: I wonder (aloud) if 1/4" is a little thin for the template? Is that what most people use? Recently, I made one of 1/2-inch MDF. I have some 1/4 hard board around, but the MDF just seemed a little safer, I guess, leaving plenty of room for the bearing to ride on in case things were a little off. 



Darryl said:


> I’m not new to woodworking, and I think I understand what happened, but looking for more thoughts.
> 
> I had a table router accident last week.
> 1.	I would like to share it in hopes that it can stop someone else from repeating it.
> ...


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## rwl7532 (Sep 8, 2011)

OK, I just saw this and scanned through some of the replies.

Of course, hope you fingers are doing well and pain is gone.

Others have mentioned problems with the template.

I would mention that no hand should be in the area behind the router bit.

The imaginary line parallel to the front edge defines the 'in front of' area and the 'behind the bit' area. 

Stance at the table should be shoulders square to the front edge of the table.

Lastly, the use of a fence would require the hands be in front at all times. I think the starting pin would get in the way.

I appreciate the original poster posting this. I'll certainly re-think my approach when routing! Hadn't occurred to me that my hand could be dragged into the bit!!


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Micah, 1/4" plywood or Masonite works perfectly for templates.


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## wbh1963 (Oct 11, 2011)

Many thanks to the Darryl for starting this thread and to the members who sparked it back into the 'recent activity realm.

Two things come to my mind in reaction:

1. Push Sticks
2. Tough Gloves

It is all too easy for us to ignore the amount of 'kinetic energy' that is being absorbed by the workpiece and cutting tool during any drilling, routing, cutting or whatever type process.

When something 'burps' in the process the resonating energy creates a 'kick back'. When a person's hand(s) are directly in contact with the workpiece, their flesh will fly off in the direction that the merciless 'kinetic energy' wants it to.

It is my guess that if a push stick had been used. it would have taken all the damage. Heavy gloves could have reduced, but not eliminated the cost here.

Reading about situations like this motivates me to adjust my own style of operations to make them safer. 

I plan on installing 'floor switches' that need to be stepped on with deliberate force for a saw to run. The idea is that if I am so much as startled by a grinding sound and pull back wards, the saw stops. I am going to make up some simple units that pass the juice through when the petal is down but shut it off otherwise.

I really love making sawdust but I am not willing to give up didgets to do it!


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## fantastc (Oct 8, 2011)

I am new to this forum and to woodworking especially with a router. Thank you Darryl for the original post and for sharing your experience. I appreciate reading all the comments and will purchase or make finger guides. I use pushers with all my work. 

Jim


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## MikeMa (Jul 27, 2006)

I have a lot of concern with any type of glove near any spinning bit or blade. The spinning action of the bit can potential catch the material and start wrapping around the spinning implement, very quickly pulling the hand into the line of fire. The potential injury from this could be much more severe as well. Using push sticks and push blocks is the way to go to keep hands and fingers safe.


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## Rick in Pittsburgh (Jun 23, 2009)

Darryl,

Had the same thing happen to me about 5 years ago, except I was using an roman ogee bit with a bearing. The board was about 10 inches long and about 3 inches wide. I was in a middle of the cut and the board went flying. Routed the middle and ring finger on the left hand. Bad Memories!! Healed really well, can hardly tell I did it. I make sure my hand is not in front of the router bit at all. I try to make sure my hands are on one side or the other of the bit. I definitly never want to repeat that again.

I hope you heal completely.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Rick

You said,in your profile 
"Do you watch the Router Workshop?
Yes "

On every show they made you will see Rick R. ,take his ring and watch off and put them in a little box he made ..he will do that to push the point home to use your router table safe. 

Not saying it got hung up on your ring , just saying use your router table safe..
Just saying if you push the stock the right way into the bit it should not jump out of your hands..
====


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## wbh1963 (Oct 11, 2011)

Excellent point Mike. I didn't factor in the 'global don't' with regards to weary floppy clothing of any kind. When I was in Jr High school a fried of mines dad got his shirt sleeve caught up in the intake of a hay baler and didn't survive the mishap. Of course the man faught like heck when it was pulling him and did draw a stump out, but there was no way to stem the bleeding. 


That might be an extreme example of 'floppy clothing' risks, but then again, I think it's important to remember that it's not just digits and skin a risk when working in the proximity of a bit spinning that fast.

I suppose that one is a bit of a catch 22. Skin coverage is a good thing in general, but certainly not if it creates the 'snag hazard'.


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## OPG3 (Jan 9, 2011)

> Micah, 1/4" plywood or Masonite works perfectly for templates.
> __________________
> Mike
> "It's fine to disagree with other members as long as you respect their opinons"


I make dozens of templates every week. I even make some templates to create other templates, but cannot agree with this as a blanket statement, because quite a few of my guide bushings extend further than 1/4". I'm using PC690 routers, fixed, plunge and table-mounted, but several guide bushings make use of greater lengths beyond the base plate. It would be nice if 1/4" will work "perfectly", but often I find templates needing to be 1/2" or even 3/4" thick to house the guide bushing. I am sorry if I've taken this out of context, but felt it should be cleared-up. Bearings can almost always work with 1/4", but not bushings, because of differing profiles. When detailing fixtures, jigs or templates, I look at specific cut line locations in combination with (concentric) guide bushings and try to use narrow cutters. As an example, I cut 3/4" +/- dados and grooves with 1/2" straight router bits - this gives "wiggle room" allowing precise matches with intersecting parts and better chip clearance. A shop where I worked had a "rule of thumb" that exterior cuts should be made using shapers or table-mounted routers, but interior cuts were always to be made using hand-help routers - this works most of the time, but not every time. Whenever working with [natural] wood, there is always the potential for surprises - as no two pieces are exactly alike. Even with the very best safety plans and equipment, there is always a chance for something unexpected, but we should learn from the mistakes of anyone to prevent repetition of stupidity.


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## Julio Navarro (Oct 14, 2011)

I had a similar accident with a dado blade while testing the width on a too small scrap. Large gash but did not lose anything. Push stick from now on with everything.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Otis

Not all brass guides are made the same way, the PC brand have a 1/4" long stems..and will work with all 1/4" thick templates.. 

Buy 10 Piece Router Bushing Set With Case at Woodcraft


===



OPG3 said:


> I make dozens of templates every week. I even make some templates to create other templates, but cannot agree with this as a blanket statement, because quite a few of my guide bushings extend further than 1/4". I'm using PC690 routers, fixed, plunge and table-mounted, but several guide bushings make use of greater lengths beyond the base plate. It would be nice if 1/4" will work "perfectly", but often I find templates needing to be 1/2" or even 3/4" thick to house the guide bushing. I am sorry if I've taken this out of context, but felt it should be cleared-up. Bearings can almost always work with 1/4", but not bushings, because of differing profiles. When detailing fixtures, jigs or templates, I look at specific cut line locations in combination with (concentric) guide bushings and try to use narrow cutters. As an example, I cut 3/4" +/- dados and grooves with 1/2" straight router bits - this gives "wiggle room" allowing precise matches with intersecting parts and better chip clearance. A shop where I worked had a "rule of thumb" that exterior cuts should be made using shapers or table-mounted routers, but interior cuts were always to be made using hand-help routers - this works most of the time, but not every time. Whenever working with [natural] wood, there is always the potential for surprises - as no two pieces are exactly alike. Even with the very best safety plans and equipment, there is always a chance for something unexpected, but we should learn from the mistakes of anyone to prevent repetition of stupidity.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Hi Otis:

Neat post. Thank you.



OPG3 said:


> I make dozens of templates every week. I even make some templates to create other templates, but cannot agree with this as a blanket statement, because quite a few of my guide bushings extend further than 1/4".


For those who do not have a source of supply for guide bushings, there are two: LeeValley Tools in Canada and OakPark, also in Canada. LeeValley carries a reduced set of 1 1/2" and OakPark carries all of the sizes in 1 1/2". Unfortunately, neither carry an equivalent to the Makita 40mm.

If the guide bushing "extension" is more than 1/4", it is a simple matter to file off the excess. I've not seen a template that cared a hoot about whether a 1/4" or 5/16" guide were used. The diameter of the "throat???" really does matter. Otis' comments below are spot on.



OPG3 said:


> I'm using PC690 routers, fixed, plunge and table-mounted, but several guide bushings make use of greater lengths beyond the base plate. It would be nice if 1/4" will work "perfectly", but often I find templates needing to be 1/2" or even 3/4" thick to house the guide bushing.


I'm using Hitachi M12Vs and Makita 3601 and 3700 in all 25 methods. I size my templates to the longevity of the pattern. If I'm doing a one-off and never expect to use the template again, I use 1/4". A longer lifespan requires 3/8" or 1/2". However, if I'm nailing the pattern to the workpiece I might just use 1/8" depending on what material I'm working with.

They ship MDF boards with 1/8" MDF "panels" top and bottom to protect the more expensive boards in the middle. I use the 1/8" because they're dirt cheap and on occasion, free.

I'm also using bits with top or bottom bearings and vary the size of the bearings when necessary.



OPG3 said:


> I am sorry if I've taken this out of context, but felt it should be cleared-up. Bearings can almost always work with 1/4", but not bushings, because of differing profiles. When detailing fixtures, jigs or templates, I look at specific cut line locations in combination with (concentric) guide bushings and try to use narrow cutters. As an example, I cut 3/4" +/- dados and grooves with 1/2" straight router bits - this gives "wiggle room" allowing precise matches with intersecting parts and better chip clearance.


Do you use skis for your dados? I'm working on a fence and rail system for skis for just such a purpose. 



OPG3 said:


> A shop where I worked had a "rule of thumb" that exterior cuts should be made using shapers or table-mounted routers, but interior cuts were always to be made using hand-help routers - this works most of the time, but not every time. Whenever working with [natural] wood, there is always the potential for surprises - as no two pieces are exactly alike. Even with the very best safety plans and equipment, there is always a chance for something unexpected, but we should learn from the mistakes of anyone to prevent repetition of stupidity.


I don't always agree with your "rule of thumb." My experience has been that I can do very successful cuts inside as well as outside. The only caveat is that the bit must fit into the smallest inside corner. I also use tables, shis and skis to ensure that I don't "flop over" and leave a "divot" on an edge.

Nice points Otis and nicely put. 

Ron


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## OPG3 (Jan 9, 2011)

*Just for clarity:*

Terms I've been using and definitions used in my shop (for router work) are:
Bearing: is attached to a bit.
Bushing: is attached to base plate (concentric about bit).
Fixture: shop-made contraption - usually to hold something for safe/secure work.
Jig: similar to fixture but with moving parts.
Template: controls the shape of something about to be made.

On the subject of bushings, here are some photos taken today of a right out of the box PC set of guide bushings. These aren't new but are unchanged from their original condition.

@Allthumbs: Good suggestion, but typically my fixtures need to be stiff and I've been okay with the extended lengths. This also shows a very recent fixture (3/4" MDF). Slots are milled 3/4" for the 3/4" guide bushing, which has a shank length of approx. 5/8". For my needs, this has worked fine. I've been using this fixture with a fixed-base router.

@Bob: I was simply attempting to make certain that someone doesn't use a guide bushing length > than their template thickness. People reading this thread could have all varieties of experience.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Otis

" Bushing:" I have been using them for a very long time along with templates, most of the guides I have been reworked down to 1/4" long or shorter, and yes it's good to use 3/4" templates with a 1/4" long guide, it's gives a place for the router dust to fit into the template pockets/corners and still get a true cut with the router bits..

Just a note I don't care for the steel zinc plated ones they don't stay tight the norm..


The picture below is a old one I now have over 150 of them  some are Mertic..just to make Harry happy...not to say anything about of the off set rings I now have to fit the guides.. 

====



OPG3 said:


> Terms I've been using and definitions used in my shop (for router work) are:
> Bearing: is attached to a bit.
> Bushing: is attached to base plate (concentric about bit).
> Fixture: shop-made contraption - usually to hold something for safe/secure work.
> ...


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Hi Otis:



OPG3 said:


> Terms I've been using and definitions used in my shop (for router work) are:
> Bearing: is attached to a bit.


Yup, except that there are a wide variety of sizes and they're mounted top, bottom and both.



OPG3 said:


> Bushing: is attached to base plate (concentric about bit).


Yup. They're vendor specific except the OakPark and there, they are the largest of the guide bushings in brass. Only the Makita screw-ins in soft steel are larger at 40mm.



OPG3 said:


> Fixture: shop-made contraption - usually to hold something for safe/secure work.
> Jig: similar to fixture but with moving parts.


"a method holds,
a jig guides, and
a fixture glides."




OPG3 said:


> Template: controls the shape of something about to be made.


Almost synonymous with the term pattern -- albeit that a pattern can be made of paper and used to transfer a drawing to a template and the template is exclusively a guide for a machine tool (sometimes ;-)



OPG3 said:


> On the subject of bushings, here are some photos taken today of a right out of the box PC set of guide bushings. These aren't new but are unchanged from their original condition.


The PC guide bushings are 1 3/16" which allows a 25/32" through hole. This is small when you want to see what's going on at the bit. Even if your template is perfect, your workpiece is not so even the slightest imperfection can cause chipout. Sometimes you can "read" that before it happens. (if you're really lucky)

I use the OakPark type baseplates and guide bushings. I find if I use the largest bushing that I'm able I can keep track of everything that's going on. I also find that the OakPark seem to be of consistent length whereas the PorterCable are of varying lengths.



OPG3 said:


> @Allthumbs: Good suggestion, but typically my fixtures need to be stiff and I've been okay with the extended lengths. This also shows a very recent fixture (3/4" MDF). Slots are milled 3/4" for the 3/4" guide bushing, which has a shank length of approx. 5/8". For my needs, this has worked fine. I've been using this fixture with a fixed-base router.


The only time I can see where stiffness is needed is when there are large volumes to be produced. Given your requirements in a commercial shop I could easily see this to be the case. Some of the fellows here use lexan or other plastics for "permanent" templates. Personally, most of my stuff is one-off so I use the least expensive materials possible.

That said, I'm only working on the exterior of my home at the moment. When I start working on the interior, perhaps I'll change my thinking somewhat. All depends of SWMBO.


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## OPG3 (Jan 9, 2011)

Thanks guys! Good points brought-on by all. Please keep in mind, it is rare for me to build furniture - because quite frankly, I can go out to the furniture store and buy what is needed. Yes it is very fun to build furniture, and all of my (3) grown daughters have furniture in their homes that I've built for them. I've also made specialty "furniture items" when critical dimensions or applications must be met.. Several years ago, I built museum display cases (all of them are still in-use) at Fernbank Science Center & Fernbank Museum in Atlanta, Georgia. Cases are sized to display everything from small insects to meteorites and even one of the old Apollo Rocket Capsules. One is huge (36' x 18') and contains murals and taxidermically preserved animals (bears, gators, egrets, etc) from the Okeefenokee Swamp. I am retired now from day-to-day work, but my income is now derived from royalties for products for which I am the inventor and consulting fees. It is for this reason that I now own a shop that makes prototypes of inventions of mine and several other clients. Every one of you out there probably own something that I have invented or consulted on. There is a whole world of people out there with some great ideas, but many do not know how to get these ideas functional and to market - this is where someone such as me comes into play. My group has 54 - US patents.
For the aforementioned reasons, most of the stuff I work on is held in the strictest of confidence; and cannot be shown to outsiders - hence the shop is at my home - to assure privacy and keep everything 100% "above board" for my clients. We keep 12-20 projects ongoing at any given time and I have quite a few consultants available when I call on them for help. We've developed things from hand tools to aircraft security, wood tools to concrete forms, calculators - software to gadgets, fiber-optic accessories to adhesives. My chemical consultant stays very busy with our ideas. I love to learn and subscribe to 20-25 magazines (all on real stuff such as trade mags and science stuff). I have absolutely zero interest in which movie stars are getting divorces or face-lifts! I absolutely love this forum and all of the insight that I get and interact with. 

Now, for an explanation of *why thick templates help me*...Some of my router templates span 4-6 feet and are supporting items held on the underside via spring-loaded homemade clamps (an endless variety). Often there are structural rails atop of the template (3/4" thick) straddling the router's path, but numerous items are being "routed" in one pass. Some of the first chores I ever did with routers was to dig channels for electrical wiring in display cases (these are considered "routes" for wires). I utilize dozens of tools - with many not being for wood use, but for metals, glass, polymers, ceramics, castings, bearings and just about anything solid that you can think of. My last product included 1,388 moving parts! 

I readily recognize that routers are one of the most versatile tools in any market - so this forum is a great place for me to learn. Several of you guys are especially helpful and I sincerely appreciate all of your help and opinions, as I have a lot more that I need to learn and this is the most helpful source of info that I am aware of.

If I ever offend anyone, it is unintentional; I am simply world-class candid - and, unfortunately; it sometimes rubs people the wrong way. There have been times when my "think tank" is having meetings that bystanders think a fight is going to break out. That's just our style, but in the end our long term clients appreciate our confrontational candor and honesty to a fault. I will never be able to THANK YOU enough! *OPG3*


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

OPG3 said:


> Now, for an explanation of *why thick templates help me*...Some of my router templates span 4-6 feet and are supporting items held on the underside via spring-loaded homemade clamps (an endless variety). Often there are structural rails atop of the template (3/4" thick) straddling the router's path, but numerous items are being "routed" in one pass.


Ok, there's challenge -- I understand why you would want to use 3/4" MDF for templates. However, given the weight, your framing must be something on the end of a crane to move. Now, how large a template do you need to use to move away from 1/4" to 3/8", or 1/2" or even larger?



OPG3 said:


> I readily recognize that routers are one of the most versatile tools in any market - so this forum is a great place for me to learn. Several of you guys are especially helpful and I sincerely appreciate all of your help and opinions, as I have a lot more that I need to learn and this is the most helpful source of info that I am aware of.


On that we have agreement. Now the question is how to document that and then how to describe it? I've spent the last several years writing and documenting things I've learned here and through experimentation. I've released parts to less than spectacular reviews.



OPG3 said:


> If I ever offend anyone, it is unintentional; I am simply world-class candid - and, unfortunately; it sometimes rubs people the wrong way. There have been times when my "think tank" is having meetings that bystanders think a fight is going to break out. That's just our style, but in the end our long term clients appreciate our confrontational candor and honesty to a fault. I will never be able to THANK YOU enough! *OPG3*


This is a rather large club. Our primary demographic is craftspeople who are taking up a second career, continuing an interrupted one or attempting to improve their professional skills. Whatever the moniker we all beg your indulgence for the same reasons you beg ours. Speak your mind with respect to the opinions of others but above all, speak your mind. For every person that speaks up there are a dozen that feel intimidated (though they shouldn't!)

Thanks for your candour. We'd love to comment on your next project.

Ron


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## OPG3 (Jan 9, 2011)

Yes, some of the templates/fixtures are quite heavy - but no cranes are required. I just need to be mindful that longer spans require deeper (thicker, in this case) members, and these spans are not only supporting the workpieces - but also the pressure being applied to guide the router. The heavier parts (when heavy is required) are also much less likely to accidentally become "Workshop Frisbees". Cost is rarely an issue, also; because there is so often only one of something. I use a huge amount of square-drive screws holding things together, because sometimes these gadgets only get used one time, and then with SD Screws they're very easily disassembled. I keep stacks of MDF, plywood and lumber on-hand for quick access.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

OPG3 said:


> Yes, some of the templates/fixtures are quite heavy - but no cranes are required. I just need to be mindful that longer spans require deeper (thicker, in this case) members, and these spans are not only supporting the workpieces - but also the pressure being applied to guide the router. The heavier parts (when heavy is required) are also much less likely to accidentally become "Workshop Frisbees". Cost is rarely an issue, also; because there is so often only one of something. I use a huge amount of square-drive screws holding things together, because sometimes these gadgets only get used one time, and then with SD Screws they're very easily disassembled. I keep stacks of MDF, plywood and lumber on-hand for quick access.


In Summary:

Templates can be made of most anything. I use MDF simply because it is cheap, dense and holds a clean edge easily. For one-off use, MDF is fine. If you need to make multiples of something you might consider Masonite or other hard board, plywood or even different types of plastic. Almost anything that is easily and accurately machined is suitable for template use.

Templates can be any size. Typically, the larger the template, the thicker it needs to be. Larger templates will require chassis or frames to ensure their integrity and safety. I use thinner templates to reduce cost but slightly thicker would be best for safety. My thinnest, and cheapest would be 1/8" thick MDF for use with a bearing. The minimum thickness for use with a guide bushing would be 1/4" providing the guide extension on the bushing is not longer than 1/4". I would not routinely use 3/8" or 1/2" thick MDF but this is at the judgment of the craftsperson and would be dictated by the physical size of the template. The larger the template, the more support it would require from a structure or frame or chassis to keep it dimension-ally stable and protected from breaking.

Always start with a pattern. Use it to design and construct your template(s). Be aware of the path of the router and any supporting structures (i.e. skis) you might be using and make sure you have no obstructions. Always test your pattern by sliding your router base across the pattern to ensure ease of movement while making the template and the final workpiece.

Design your pattern for the specific guiding mechanism you're going to use. i.e. if you're using a guide bushing, design for and document the specific size of bushing you plan to use, and why. (i.e. "I've got a 1 1/4" bushing on hand) It would help if you also document the size of the bushing and what templates you use it with. If the bushing should get damaged, you know what patterns you're going to need that size for. I maintain an inventory of bushings in 1/4" increments and adjust my patterns and templates accordingly.

When constructing templates it is also important to consider how the template is going to be held to the workpiece and also the path of the router during the cut of the final product. Screws might be in order but make sure the heads and countersinks won't interfere with the smooth sliding of the router base. There are people who use headless pins, double-sided tape and hot melt glue. Whatever the attachment method you use, test first to be sure that it will hold through the entire operation you're planning and that you can separate the template from the workpiece when all your milling is complete. It is my experience that double-sided tape doesn't stick worth a damn unless you're trying to remove it from a workpiece, then, it won't let go for love nor money. I don't know what they use on those TV shows but it sure doesn't look like what I can get.

Try to be very accurate when you're milling your template. Do not rely on sanding to "smooth out" milling errors. This will transfer a fault to your final workpiece. Do not machine templates freehand. Always make sure you have some sort of guide. This is where a pattern comes in handy. Break your pattern down into individual components and prepare guides for each component. You may need to mill a component onto a template, remove it and proceed to the next component. Always maintain the integrity of your pattern. Do not chop it up to make your components. There are various ways to transfer patterns to templates. The most reliable and accurate is measurement and drafting instruments. Remember, female templates make female workpieces and likewise for male. You cannot use a female template to make a male workpiece.

Otis, do you agree?

Ron


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

" You cannot use a female template to make a male workpiece. "


Say WHAT ??????

===


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

bobj3 said:


> " You cannot use a female template to make a male workpiece. "
> 
> 
> Say WHAT ??????
> ...


Not surprisingly, you and I are in complete agreement Bob.


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## OPG3 (Jan 9, 2011)

Ron (allthumbs), Your comments above seem very accurate. I think I am unclear of the difference between Masonite and MDF, _but quite honestly_, it makes no difference in what I am doing. None of my finished products are made of either material, so I simply go to or send someone to Home Depot to get me what I need. There is quite a bit of materials laying around in my shop from which templates can be made, and quite honestly I don't give a big concern, except to make sure it works. If I am going to make "permanent templates", I use red oak, white ash, brazilian cherry, beech, plexiglas, etc. I require that all templates are smooth-edged where necessary when I use them. I would attach photos, but most of my work is kept in strict confidence for legal reasons. When templates become obsolete, they are dismantled and salvaged when smart to do so. Some things end-up in my fireplace.

Furthermore, I agree that template work should not be done freehand and certainly sanding could result in problems. Frankly, I never do work with a router "freehand" - the few times I've tried always resulted in something sloppy. Some people helping me seem fairly good at this - but it is not something I am personally good at.

In my line of work, I do things very differently from many woodworkers - so templates might get used for 10 minutes, and then never again. Often, the templates are simply screwed-down to the workpiece. Wholeheartedly I agree to having had the same result with double-sided tape - so when screws are used, there is caution in locations of screwheads - to never interrupt the [router] base plate's travel path. Since I am an avid user of AutoCAD, I make drawings (2d or 3d) whenever the needs dictate - these help me to visualize fouls or potential problems. I use more straight, fillet and cove router bits than the fancy multi-piece profile bits - hence I've not needed routers bigger than the PC690's. Having all routers the same keeps things simple and reduces shop surprises.

I notice you used the word "chassis". I believe there is no better word, because your word better describes what I referred to as "frames". My finished products are often HDPE structural foam, sheet plastics, aluminum, delrin, corian, unique composites, etc. - so often a cheap, thin template is used to make a better template, so forth and so on.
It is believed that when Native Americans needed to have a heavy rope span a ravine for a bridge, and if the rope was too heavy to be thrown that far, they would begin with thin lines and work feeding back and forth progressively heavier lines until the heavy rope is worked-up to. Planning tedious operations often requires steps of progression. I probably should have the term "TWEAK IT" tattooed on my arm somewhere. Tweaking to get a permanent template to exact specifications, is often something where days are spent, and quite frankly; when it yields a product that is an important tool to build a prototype which will help develop a product that will sell for many years for serious money - it is always worth it. Whole businesses throughout the US are manufacturing products that I've built the original concepts and prototypes for.

I MAKE PROTOTYPES, and your information has been most helpful and I would love to show my (some areas) shop to you personally in more detail. I am about 65 miles NE of Atlanta, GA. PM me for my phone numbers, etc. *OPG3*

PS. My wife has this little device called a "*Cricut*" and she uses it to make scrapbooking inserts. Often, I make a drawing in AutoCAD, export the .dwg file to .pdf format and email it from my laptop to her laptop. She can then use my .pdf to insert into her (???)software which "drives" the *Cricut*. The *Cricut* makes cutouts that are exact, which can be excellent drilling patterns when applied as a sticky part to my workpieces - which end up as wooden templates. This is one of the best ways I've found to mark tiny parts. After my cuts are made, the "bumper sticker" removes easily.

Thanks again for your time, *OPG3*


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Hi Otis:

Thanks for your input.



OPG3 said:


> Ron (allthumbs), Your comments above seem very accurate.


Thank you. I was hoping you'd find some errors but I'll take your comments below as usable modifications.



OPG3 said:


> I think I am unclear of the difference between Masonite and MDF, _but quite honestly_, it makes no difference in what I am doing.


I believe that Masonite and MDF are essentially the same materials but Masonite has a hardened surface whereas MDF is of the same density through it's thickness.



OPG3 said:


> None of my finished products are made of either material, so I simply go to or send someone to Home Depot to get me what I need. There is quite a bit of materials laying around in my shop from which templates can be made, and quite honestly I don't give a big concern, except to make sure it works. If I am going to make "permanent templates", I use red oak, white ash, brazilian cherry, beech, plexiglas, etc. I require that all templates are smooth-edged where necessary when I use them. I would attach photos, but most of my work is kept in strict confidence for legal reasons. When templates become obsolete, they are dismantled and salvaged when smart to do so. Some things end-up in my fireplace.


I'm no fan of working with MDF or Masonite. The MDF uses formaldehyde in its manufacture and when it is worked, the dust is toxic. That said, I do use Luan when possible or work the MDF outside. Your list of materials for permanent templates is appreciated. 

By your comment about templates being smooth-edged, I would assume that you machine your templates carefully. Do you have any other tricks? i.e. if you take lexan and heat it slightly you can "smooth" out the edge or even "iron" out any defects. Do you do this?

I have lived most of my adult life under the stricture of government control so I can appreciate your reasons for security.



OPG3 said:


> Furthermore, I agree that template work should not be done freehand and certainly sanding could result in problems. Frankly, I never do work with a router "freehand" - the few times I've tried always resulted in something sloppy. Some people helping me seem fairly good at this - but it is not something I am personally good at.


I'm going to start experimenting with over-sized handles and angled handles in the hope of developing a technique of freehand use. Perhaps some of my planned experiments might help you with your endeavours.



OPG3 said:


> In my line of work, I do things very differently from many woodworkers - so templates might get used for 10 minutes, and then never again. Often, the templates are simply screwed-down to the workpiece. Wholeheartedly I agree to having had the same result with double-sided tape - so when screws are used, there is caution in locations of screwheads - to never interrupt the [router] base plate's travel path. Since I am an avid user of AutoCAD, I make drawings (2d or 3d) whenever the needs dictate - these help me to visualize fouls or potential problems.


Sorry, I do not agree. There are many woodworkers that would work as you do. When I make something, it doesn't necessarily mean that I'll reuse a template. I worked on a template for more than a week and used it for 1 cut and that was it. So, join the club. I don't know how many other's work this way but I would assume quite a few.



OPG3 said:


> I use more straight, fillet and cove router bits than the fancy multi-piece profile bits - hence I've not needed routers bigger than the PC690's. Having all routers the same keeps things simple and reduces shop surprises.


I use single cut bits. A lot of straight bits, bearinged bits of various types. I also use only "parts" of bits. One of the advantages of working on a variety of tables.



OPG3 said:


> I notice you used the word "chassis". I believe there is no better word, because your word better describes what I referred to as "frames". My finished products are often HDPE structural foam, sheet plastics, aluminum, delrin, corian, unique composites, etc. - so often a cheap, thin template is used to make a better template, so forth and so on.


I would think "chassis" to be appropriate because you can mount a frame to a chassis but not a chassis to a frame. Just another one of those semantic play on words that seem ridiculous until you find you need to describe something.



OPG3 said:


> It is believed that when Native Americans needed to have a heavy rope span a ravine for a bridge, and if the rope was too heavy to be thrown that far, they would begin with thin lines and work feeding back and forth progressively heavier lines until the heavy rope is worked-up to.


I use a light mono filament fishing line (about 5 lb test) with a fluffy wad of toilet paper tied on one end. Push it into an electrical conduit, go to the other end and suck up the toilet paper with a shop vac. Put an old nylon stocking over the vacuum nozzle so you don't "swallow" the toilet paper. Now, you can pull one of those 3mm static cords through the conduit that you can then use to pull your electrical cable through. Remember, the more bends the more miserable the pulling job, but it's possible. Don't remove the static line once you've pulled the cable through. There's no substitute for "being nice" to the next guy working on that circuit ;-)



OPG3 said:


> Planning tedious operations often requires steps of progression. I probably should have the term "TWEAK IT" tattooed on my arm somewhere. Tweaking to get a permanent template to exact specifications, is often something where days are spent, and quite frankly; when it yields a product that is an important tool to build a prototype which will help develop a product that will sell for many years for serious money - it is always worth it. Whole businesses throughout the US are manufacturing products that I've built the original concepts and prototypes for.


Question: do you have an inventory of "standard" templates? For example, french curves of various sizes, disks or circles or ellipses?



OPG3 said:


> I MAKE PROTOTYPES, and your information has been most helpful and I would love to show my (some areas) shop to you personally in more detail. I am about 65 miles NE of Atlanta, GA. PM me for my phone numbers, etc. *OPG3*


Thanks for the invite but, alas I'm over 1,392 miles from Atlanta. Perhaps someday when I "retire"



OPG3 said:


> PS. My wife has this little device called a "*Cricut*" and she uses it to make scrapbooking inserts. Often, I make a drawing in AutoCAD, export the .dwg file to .pdf format and email it from my laptop to her laptop. She can then use my .pdf to insert into her (???)software which "drives" the *Cricut*. The *Cricut* makes cutouts that are exact, which can be excellent drilling patterns when applied as a sticky part to my workpieces - which end up as wooden templates. This is one of the best ways I've found to mark tiny parts. After my cuts are made, the "bumper sticker" removes easily.


Interesting observation and method. I'll insert that into "making templates."



OPG3 said:


> Thanks again for your time, *OPG3*


and I thank you for your time and your candour. It is much appreciated.

Ron


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## robertfezcorp (Nov 19, 2011)

:yes4:

Thanks for sharing your experience. The posting and responses are certainly helping me to review what were are doing in our facility to prevent this kind of accident.


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## Joe Lyddon (Sep 11, 2004)

cbsjoez1935 said:


> Darryl,
> I am sorry to see that happen to anyone. When you say the piece pulled off to the right and your left hand was behind the piece, I think I might have a belated answer. From your pictures, it would appear that you were feeding the piece in the wrong direction. That is to say, the piece should have been on the left side of the router bit and you should have been feeding it from right to left. When in the table, the bit rotation is counter-clockwise. I would think you may have hit a knot and were actually doing what is called a "climb cut". With the bit in a pulling direction, it caused the piece to bounce off and pull you in. You did not say how you were feeding it and what I just said may not be the answer, but as Bob & Rick have said before "observe bit rotation". I hope your recovery is quick.
> Joe Z.





FatFreddysCat said:


> James
> 
> If you are using a router table the feed direction is ALWAYS from RIGHT to LEFT. This is because the cutter rotates anti-clockwise and you need to feed in such a way that the cutter cannot grab and pull-in the worlk (i.e. away from your hands). It's possibly also worth noting that the width of cut should always be less that one half of the diameter of the cutter (e.g. 1/4in or less on a 1/2in diameter cutter) and the depth of cut on a given pass should ideally never be out of square, i.e. a 1/2in diameter cutter working a groove (dado) shouldn't be taking more than a 1/2in deep cut on each pass. These figures are obviously maximums, not advised norms!
> 
> As to using a lead-in pin - if the work is carried on a template the lead pin is rarely required as the template lead-in should accommodate any start of feed issues. The other thing to do, though, is to carefully hog away most of the waste on the bandsaw or with a jigsaw first to leave a 1/8in (3mm) or so margin to machine away. This has the additional advantage of being safer, putting less strain on the router and giving a better quality end piece (because the router is much less likely to slow dorwn, stall, etc)


*IMHO, the above two posts nailed HOW THE ACCIDENT HAPPENED...*

*When a bit is in a Climbing Cut and hits a Knot (or close to a knot) or a Change in Grain to where the bit CANNOT CUT, the results can be HELLISH... and SCARY... and just about anything happen.*

I think when the Bit stopped, ever so briefly, *the wood had to move instead* (along with the fingers ON the wood) thus, cutting fingers.

The wood can be even FLIPPED up or down... hard to predict... *but it can happen FAST... usually starting with a loud POPPING sound when bit can't cut & subsequently moves the wood.*

If I remember, the grain looked like ripples of grain (soft, hard, soft, hard, etc.) like Pine... a perfect setup for this to happen.

I'm glad the fingers healed.


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## rwl7532 (Sep 8, 2011)

Darryl said:


> Hi Joe,
> Thanks for the feedback, I was feeding it right to left against the bit rotation, so it was not a climb cut, I would not do those intentionally. I was only cutting the curved part. I know it may sound a little confusing, I started my cut about 10" from the right end.
> 
> Thanks for the good wishes
> Darryl


Just to be clear.
The feed was from right to left.

I'm thinking of printing out a color version to put on the wall behind my table mounted router.

This post has changed how I work my routing. For instance, if the piece is the right size to do it, the heels of my palms are on the table which anchors my hand so to speak.


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## Joe Lyddon (Sep 11, 2004)

rwl7532 said:


> Just to be clear.
> The feed was from right to left.
> 
> I'm thinking of printing out a color version to put on the wall behind my table mounted router.
> ...


OK Ralph,

In inspecting the wood pieces after the accident, after the dust settled & medical aid was done, did you notice gouges cut into the wood pieces where the bit was trying to cut but did not finish cutting... like it stopped dead with a partial cut into the wood?

If so, something, maybe a hard knot, had to try to stop the bit from turning triggering the rest of the accident.

Was your bit still in it's original cutting position? Not out longer, etc. Did the Bearing still line up with the template / pattern?

Take the same pieces back to the router table... setup exactly the same way... and with BIG PUSHERS, try to RESUME the cut that was interrupted.

Maybe during a dry run, without power, the reason may jump out at you...
If not, turn the router on... watch it a little to see if it's normal... turn off... see how it spins to a stop... all normal? If so, resume the cut.

The Reason for the accident is there somewhere... Hope you find it.


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## rwl7532 (Sep 8, 2011)

Joe Lyddon said:


> OK Ralph,
> 
> In inspecting the wood pieces after the accident, after the dust settled & medical aid was done, did you notice gouges cut into the wood pieces where the bit was trying to cut but did not finish cutting... like it stopped dead with a partial cut into the wood?
> 
> ...


Uh, wasn't my accident. My post include a quote of the post from the OP regarding feed direction. That quoted post was way way at the beginning of this thread.


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## Joe Lyddon (Sep 11, 2004)

Oh well...

It's not the first time I've gotten lost... LOL

Thank you... LOL

:dance3: :dance3: :dance3:


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## woodmanz (Oct 31, 2011)

sorry to hear about your accident. good luck with the healing. thanks for the pictures and your story, pictures are worth a thousand words. I also had a mishap on my router table. I was also doing a flush trim when my bearing went flying off, no injuries. I check all my bearings before they go in the router. woodmanz


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## sp5937 (Apr 10, 2009)

This type of accident can happen to anyone at any time. I lost my middle finger left hand with a skil saw, almost up to the first knuckle (behind the nail)...was cutting a 2x4, it hit a know, jumped out so fast!!! I heard a TINK sound, felt som epressure, looked and the damage was done. Didn't really hurt, felt like a paper cut actually, sort of stung. That happened in Aprol of 2010, and it still gives me fits sometimes. Especially in the cold winter weather!!! Boy howdy, can it ever hurt!!!


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## Joe Lyddon (Sep 11, 2004)

sp5937 said:


> This type of accident can happen to anyone at any time. I lost my middle finger left hand with a skil saw, almost up to the first knuckle (behind the nail)...was cutting a 2x4, it hit a know, jumped out so fast!!! I heard a TINK sound, felt som epressure, looked and the damage was done. Didn't really hurt, felt like a paper cut actually, sort of stung. That happened in Aprol of 2010, and it still gives me fits sometimes. Especially in the cold winter weather!!! Boy howdy, can it ever hurt!!!


*Wow! . . . OUCH!*

Yep, those knots can cause all kinds of things to happen...

Was the saw handle in your Right hand?

Was it the hand you were holding the 2x4 as you were cutting? (left hand)

On my Skil saw, holding in my right hand, the motor is on the left...

Did your saw pop & travel toward the motor?

How close was your holding hand from the saw?


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## sp5937 (Apr 10, 2009)

Joe Lyddon said:


> *Wow! . . . OUCH!*
> 
> Yep, those knots can cause all kinds of things to happen...
> 
> ...


Ahhh, therein lies the mistake!!!My left hand was only inches from the saw. It was a short 2x4, was cutting a birds beak into it. I shoulda known better!!! Just plain old stupidity and rushing.:fie:


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## Joe Lyddon (Sep 11, 2004)

OK, you pretty much "asked for" it to happen... taking a real chance...
It's a shame we have learn the hard way isn't it?
Glad you're healed... and have a hand... It could've been worse.


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## NavyCharles24 (Feb 23, 2011)

dovetail_65 said:


> I bet you never do that again!
> 
> Were you trying to take off to much wood ? Taking more than than an 1/8" off is a no no.
> 
> ...


It's an old post but boy oh boy oh boy, this section has really reminded me, in a BIG WAY, to Read, Know and Understand how my Power Tools Operate. Your pictures are stunning to the point. Even 3+ years later. Thank you for the reminder.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Man, that's brutal! Hope you have a quick recovery, Darryl. 
Absolutely on the 'wake-up call' to the rest of us; that got _my_ attention!!!
Not being impertinent, but how in the heck are you typing?! Your hand must be sensitive as hell.


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## jlord (Nov 16, 2009)

I'm sure he is better by now. It was in December 2008.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Oh fercrisake! I never noticed the original post date *embarrassment*...


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## jlord (Nov 16, 2009)

DaninVan said:


> Oh fercrisake! I never noticed the original post date *embarrassment*...


It's ok. It's still a relevant reminder to be safe when operating machinery.


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## vandomme2 (Jun 11, 2012)

I can't comment on the reason for your accident. I have used a benchtop table router now for half a year to make flat curved parts with holes using a top template. I roughcut with a jigsaw or scroll saw, drill cutouts and holes with a 1/2in diameter bit, then rough cut inner and outer sides freehand on the router using a larger diameter bit, then use the template to finish all inner and outer sides and the small cutouts/ellipses/holes. I do the cutouts with a 3/16 or 1/4 in straight bit with a minibearing on top as some of the holes are really small. 

I find the scariest part of this table routing is always these small holes as the router bit sometimes/often wants to grab the part. My two hands hold the part and I look down on the bit from above. If it 'grabs' anything can happen, the part rotates many times violently then flies off. It damages the hole so much that I always have to discard the part. Any comments of what I should do better, or is maybe a plunge router, with the part being firmly clamped in, better to these small cutouts and holes? Thanks.


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

vandomme2 said:


> I find the scariest part of this table routing is always these small holes as the router bit sometimes/often wants to grab the part. My two hands hold the part and I look down on the bit from above. If it 'grabs' anything can happen, the part rotates many times violently then flies off. It damages the hole so much that I always have to discard the part. Any comments of what I should do better, or is maybe a plunge router, with the part being firmly clamped in, better to these small cutouts and holes? Thanks.


Yes. Firstly, it sounds like your grabbing might be either that you're trying to take too much stock off at a single pass or that you're feeding the wrong way (climb milling) or possibly that you're runniing without dust extraction and that the cutter gullets are clogging. In which direction are you trying to make the cut? On a router table the work is fed right to left with the cutter to the rear - inside cut-outs and holes you need to feed in an anti-clockwise direction to avoid climb cutting. The depth of cut should never exceed 1/2 the diameter of the cutter if possible, so you need to drill or rough-out the holes to within 1/8in of the finished size before deploying the 1/4in trim bit (or 3/32in for a 3/16in bit) - always try to go for the largest bit possible when routing these small holes as the smaller bits can and will clog much more easily, especially if you haven't hooked up a vacuum. You might also want to consider making a larger and heavier jig with proper handles to hold the pieces, one which leaves your hands well away from the cutter. The extra weight and mass together with having your hands further apart promotes stability. That's how it's done in an industrial shop for safety and added control.

Regards

Phil


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## japa62 (May 9, 2012)

Haven't read the whole thread yet but from what I have, feel this should be sticky'd or part of a top ten 'Shop Safety' sticky.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Phil P said:


> Yes. Firstly, it sounds like your grabbing might be ...


Well said Phil.

I can only add that safety pins are the only effective replacement for a fence, in spite of what the TV programs say.


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## jerrag (Sep 23, 2008)

Talk about catching a falling knife, in a former hobby, (gunsmithing) I had my belt sander set up on a rather pecarious stand, and when that stand failed with the sander running full blast, I caught it, my hand caught the spinning disk sander on the side and "SANDED" the hide off the palm of my hand, as well as cutting some extra lines for the palm reader to ponder. It hurt like hell for a long time, but since I was "A MAN" I never bothered showing it to a doctor, just washed it down with soapy water and bandaged it well (I was at that time a nationally registered EMT). It did heal OK but I doubt I will ever forget the folly. These pictures showed me that I have been LUCKY thus far with my routing, and plan on making some bit guards tomorrow since I finished my table today.

I am rather new to this hobby myself, spent all winter watching all the woodworking shows I could find on the internet (MAN THERE ARE A BUNCH!) and dreaming up my setup. My main problem, well the one that I can say is main is the fact my garage is cluttered as heck, and has a very loose dirt floor. I have placed a 3/4 inch plywood sheet on the floor by my new table saw so I have a firm place to stand when operating that deadly tool, perhaps I should do the same with my new router table. My other problems stem from four botched surgeries on my lower spine, leaving me dependant on some rather strong narcotic pain relievers, and numbing parts of my old brain. I used to use one of those little Craftsman mini router tables that my wife found for me at a yard sale but it just wasn't up to the job or at least by my way of thinking, so I purchased a new Craftsman 2 3/4 horse plunge router then found a parts router on Ebay for cheap and took the standard base off it and mounted on my newly built router table. Makes life easy just pull the motor out of the table mount and stick it in my plunge base and I am ready to go. I do have a Skill router that I have used twice, not the plunge and doesn't seem to be as easy to use as the Craftsman series for some reason. The other day I accompanied the wife to a yard sale (she needed my pickup to haul her purchases) and picked up an old Black and Decker Professional router. Guy said it works but I haven't turned it on yet. It is just a quarter inch collet but most of my bits are as well. My Craftsman router takes both. Wife got me one of those 24 bit sets for Christmas one year, the Skill came the Christmas before, so I have been a long time in starting. I can only work a couple of hours a day because of my stupid back but I do love my time with my routers and hope to actually make some stuff soon, now that I got the table built.
Anyhow I ramble on, sorry to see the fingers man that must have hurt like heck! I can't imagine having to reprogram the brain to figure out what I am touching like that.

I spent over 20 years as a cop and I think I am in more danger out in the garage then I was all those years sitting on my rear in the squad car.

Anyhow I have some Plexiglas in the garage and like I said, tomorrow I begin cutting out my guards and building the wooden parts. I think I will make some like they showed on RWS.


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## tooldad (Aug 5, 2012)

Being a shop teacher, this is my worst fear for my students. 14 years under my belt and only 4 have gotten stitches. Only myself as a result of a router, actually a shaper. 

We sometimes do an adirondack chair project in which we make about 40 chairs as a mass production unit. rough cutting and template routing is essential for consistency. My method is a half fence screwed to the top of the table top (ours is wood). The fence needs to be taller than the material and pattern thickness combined. Then screw a piece of plexiglass over the bit attached to the top of the fence. 

This at least creates what we call in class a "dummy guard". If you're dumb enough to put your hands there, you can figure out the rest.

Feed direction could have been a contributing factor also, but not for sure.
Hope that helps for future endeavors or for other woodworkers.


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## woodoodle (Jul 26, 2012)

could some sort of hold down feather board prevented this?

No Safety Know Pain
Know Safety No Pain


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Best wishes for a speedy recovery, Darryl! 

Would this be an inappropriate time to compliment you on your workbench top? I really like it.


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## Joe Lyddon (Sep 11, 2004)

After reviewing revised pictures, it was obvious to me...

*You were going the wrong direction!*

You started at the *top* of the picture and *routed toward* the *bottom*!

*You should have started at the BOTTOM of the picture and routed toward the TOP of the picture!*
(with the board on the left side of the bit)

The router PULLED the board INTO the router... & probably SHOT that board toward the bottom of the picture with fingers getting in the way...

What a damn SHAME... I'm really very sorry for your mistake in direction...

You should have watched a few more episodes of The Router Workshop.


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## Darryl (Dec 23, 2007)

DaninVan said:


> Best wishes for a speedy recovery, Darryl!
> 
> Would this be an inappropriate time to compliment you on your workbench top? I really like it.


Thank You, I have a lot of hours on it. It took a few months after the accident before I could use the table again. Now I use it on a regularly.


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## Darryl (Dec 23, 2007)

*correct direction*



Joe Lyddon said:


> After reviewing revised pictures, it was obvious to me...
> 
> *You were going the wrong direction!*
> 
> ...


______________
Hi Joe, 

Sorry, but I found your response kind of *nasty*. I use a lot of caution in my work. I know how to rout and was going in the correct direction. 

Just wanted to let you know I was routing in the correct direction and I had a router kick back and it through the board back at me and pulled my left hand throught the router. Believe me I have re-lived this many times, My fingers are functional now for the most part.

*This was a router kickback, not dis-similar to a tabel saw kick back.* The big bit grabbed the work and shot it back at me. Unforunately it brought my fingers through the router bit, I should not have had them on the work, I should have been using a gripper of some kind, which I have at every workstation in my shop now.

PS: I have watched a lot of episodes of The Router Workshop

Thanks

Darryl:thank_you2:


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## Joe Lyddon (Sep 11, 2004)

Darryl said:


> ______________
> Hi Joe,
> 
> Sorry, but I found your response kind of *nasty*. I use a lot of caution in my work. I know how to rout and was going in the correct direction.
> ...



*Darryl,*

*Sorry, I called it like I saw it...*

Obviously, you did something wrong...

After I saw your revised picture the way your hands were placed, etc., the workpiece looked like it was going to be PULLED toward the bit, which is WRONG.

If I commented in error & you didn't like it, Sorry...

*Again, I called like I saw it...*

Glad you are healed and ready to go again...
I hope you don't make the same mistake again...

I can't even FIND the picture you posted... now... What happened to it?


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## MikeMa (Jul 27, 2006)

Reviewing the pictures myself, it appears the direction of travel isn't the issue. I have had a few cases where a flush trim bit got caught in the grain of the wood, most cases causing nasty tear out. In this case, instead of tear out, it grabbed a hold of the board and caused kickback. This can serve as a reminder that even when everything is being done correctly, bad things can happen in an instant. 

Still photos mocking up what happened is never going to give a full representation of what happened, in this case it was an attempt to show what may have happened.

While the spirit of the forum is always here to give advice to one another, there is no need to be rude, with over use of bolding, italics, and curse words.


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## Joe Lyddon (Sep 11, 2004)

NiceG316 said:


> Reviewing the pictures myself, it appears the direction of travel isn't the issue. I have had a few cases where a flush trim bit got caught in the grain of the wood, most cases causing nasty tear out. In this case, instead of tear out, it grabbed a hold of the board and caused kickback. This can serve as a reminder that even when everything is being done correctly, bad things can happen in an instant.
> 
> Still photos mocking up what happened is never going to give a full representation of what happened, in this case it was an attempt to show what may have happened.
> 
> While the spirit of the forum is always here to give advice to one another, there is no need to be rude, with over use of bolding, italics, and curse words.



OK, take a look at THIS picture!

The way I see it, the workpiece and fingers will be pulled right into the BIT...
To me, the workpiece will be PULLED toward the bit... fingers going along for the ride...


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## MEBCWD (Jan 14, 2012)

Joe Lyddon said:


> OK, take a look at THIS picture!
> 
> The way I see it, the workpiece and fingers will be pulled right into the BIT...
> To me, the workpiece will be PULLED toward the bit... fingers going along for the ride...


Sorry Joe I have to agree with Mike!

The picture clearly shows the starter pin to the right of the bit just where it should be. The work should be feed into the cutter moving from right to left. It is dangerous to attempt to climb cut (running from left to right), especially with the larger bits.

The bit might have been over feed and caused a kick back, even anti kick back bits can be over feed when routing very hard woods of other materials and also grain can often cause problems when using larger bits.

Darryl hope you are healed or healing by now and Everyone should note that you have push pads and use them now, they should too.


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## GulfcoastGuy (Feb 27, 2012)

Joe Lyddon said:


> OK, take a look at THIS picture!
> 
> The way I see it, the workpiece and fingers will be pulled right into the BIT...
> To me, the workpiece will be PULLED toward the bit... fingers going along for the ride...


I think it was stated that for the position in the image the intent was to move to the curve which would be correct feed direction for the cut. If I understand you Joe, you believe that regardless of the of the feed direction that it was the position of the hands to the "left side" of the cut that contributed to the injury. I see that. Had the hands been to the right they would have been in the line of fire for the kickback but not pulled into the bit.


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## MikeMa (Jul 27, 2006)

Joe, one thing to consider, as I stated before still pictures of a mock up aren't going to give the full picture. His right hand in that picture is probably holding the camera to take the picture, when during the actual operation it was on the work piece where it needed to be. The only difference I could see that Darryl should have made, which he made a comment on that, was using push blocks on the piece, as well as keeping his fingers out line of fire, before and (in this case) after the bit. Otherwise from the factors that Mike also pointed out, it appears the operation was setup correctly based on the position of the starting pin. If he was going to do a climb cut, the pin would have been on the opposite side of the bit.

I think the picture is referencing where the work piece was at the time of when the incident occurred, NOT the direction of travel. The position of his left hand does show that when the piece did kick back was the cause of the injury, which is what I believe what he was trying to show in the picture.


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## Joe Lyddon (Sep 11, 2004)

MEBCWD said:


> Sorry Joe I have to agree with Mike!
> 
> The picture clearly shows the starter pin to the right of the bit just where it should be. The work should be feed into the cutter moving from right to left. It is dangerous to attempt to climb cut (running from left to right), especially with the larger bits.
> 
> ...



OK, which direction is the BIT turning? :big_boss:


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

No criticism implied, but out of an exaggerated sense of self preservation I _never _put my hand _anywhere_ on the workpiece...clamps, clamps, clamps.
Once burnt (RAS).
Same for drilling with portable drills; keep your hand(s) well away from the chuck. You'll only slam a drill chuck/drill bit down on your finger _once_!


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## MikeMa (Jul 27, 2006)

Joe Lyddon said:


> OK, which direction is the BIT turning? :big_boss:


Seriously? This is a router not a shaper, as evident by the router plate. I don't know of any router that is reversible*, though most shapers are. However, looking at the bit that is being used, it was spinning the same direction as every router made does, and he was pushing against the spin of the bit.

*There maybe some old model router out there that could have been reversible to allow for a cross over for using shaper bits. However, looking at his setup, it looks like he has a modern setup, with a modern router.


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## MEBCWD (Jan 14, 2012)

NiceG316 said:


> Seriously? This is a router not a shaper, as evident by the router plate. I don't know of any router that is reversible*, though most shapers are. However, looking at the bit that is being used, it was spinning the same direction as every router made does, and he was pushing against the spin of the bit.
> 
> *There maybe some old model router out there that could have been reversible to allow for a cross over for using shaper bits. However, looking at his setup, it looks like he has a modern setup, with a modern router.


Joe,
With the router in a router table the bit is spinning in a counterclockwise direction and you feed your material into the cutter by feeding it from right to left. My right side is the side my right hand is on and my left side is the side my left hand is on, and just so there is no confusion about this I face the table when I am routing.


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## Joe Lyddon (Sep 11, 2004)

NiceG316 said:


> Seriously? This is a router not a shaper, as evident by the router plate. I don't know of any router that is reversible*, though most shapers are. However, looking at the bit that is being used, it was spinning the same direction as every router made does, and he was pushing against the spin of the bit.
> 
> *There maybe some old model router out there that could have been reversible to allow for a cross over for using shaper bits. However, looking at his setup, it looks like he has a modern setup, with a modern router.


*YES, SERIOUSLY!
*
If that workpiece was pushed up against the bit, pin or not, it would be moved from Left to Right... If someone actually pushed the workpiece into the bit (using the pin), oriented the way in the picture, the workpiece would be PULLED INTO the BIT... if his left hand was in the position in the picture, it would be in-line with the bit... Heading for disaster.

OK?


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## MikeMa (Jul 27, 2006)

He moved the work piece from right to left, it kicked back, unfortunately his fingers were pulled into the spinning bit. The moving of a work piece from a starting pin until it goes against the bit's bearing is a very common practice on the router and can be done safely. If anything his mistake was poor placement of his hand, and push blocks should have been used. 

I base this on the pictures as well as his explanation.

Regardless, back to the original point, just because you *THINK* you are right, does NOT give you the excuse to be rude and nasty to others on the forum.


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

Going back to the original post in 2008:



> It’s been a week now and I think that I figured out what might have happened.
> 1.	I think that the board somehow road up off of the bearing and then dug-in big time and fast
> 2.	I think that the fingers of my left hand may not have been behind the board, but resting on top of it holding it down.
> 3.	The board launched from left to right like a bullet, so fast that my left hand did not react, but instead went with the board to the bit. Just like a kick back on a table saw.


This seems to agree with what Joe has been saying. 

The cutter is spinning anti-clockwise, so will PULL the work piece from left to right.

This is not saying that the OP was FEEDING the work piece that way, that is the path the cutter took it when it dug in...

It does sound like the template rose above the bearing and could not prevent the work piece from impacting into the cutter.

IMO, the pin is only to start the cutter on to the bearing, after that safety is set by the bearing. 

I believe that is why Bob and Rick only used the pin/bearing for curved pieces. For all straight pieces, a fence was used with the bearing 'isolated'.

Bob and Rick also seemed to favour using a guide bush in the table for their bigger pieces.


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## MikeMa (Jul 27, 2006)

From Joe "You were going the wrong direction!"

Indicating that he felt a climb cut was being done, which is not the case. When the work piece grabbed too deeply into the router bit, then yes the kickback will be in the direction opposite of what he was pushing.

Regardless, it STILL does not give him the excuse to be rude and nasty.


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## Joe Lyddon (Sep 11, 2004)

NiceG316 said:


> He moved the work piece from right to left, it kicked back, unfortunately his fingers were pulled into the spinning bit. The moving of a work piece from a starting pin until it goes against the bit's bearing is a very common practice on the router and can be done safely. If anything his mistake was poor placement of his hand, and push blocks should have been used.
> 
> I base this on the pictures as well as his explanation.
> 
> Regardless, back to the original point, just because you *THINK* you are right, does NOT give you the excuse to be rude and nasty to others on the forum.


OK, I look at the picture...

I see it going from left to RIGHT... NOT Right to Left! :nhl_checking:

THAT is the way I saw it... THAT is the way I called it... :nhl_checking:

If you think my response was "RUDE", so be it! :nhl_checking:

.... why did it take SO LONG for someone to figure out that "I was Rude"? :nhl_checking: 

TOO MUCH... :nhl_checking: :nhl_checking:

Sorry if I misinterpretted the picture... Should have been a VIDEO, I guess...

Glad the fingers are healing... :dirol:


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## Joe Lyddon (Sep 11, 2004)

NiceG316 said:


> Regardless, back to the original point, just because you *THINK* you are right, does NOT give you the excuse to be rude and nasty to others on the forum.



*Mike,*

*I can turn this around...*

Just because *you THINK* you are right and *I am Wrong,* *does that give you an excuse to be Rude and Nasty to me?*

May I suggest that you find another tree to climb? LOL


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## MikeMa (Jul 27, 2006)

Perhaps you should take your own advice as well.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

...


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## Joe Lyddon (Sep 11, 2004)

NiceG316 said:


> Perhaps you should take your own advice as well.


Hey Guy, *I'm just passing YOUR advice on to YOU!*

I guess you just couldn't find another tree to climb, eh? LOL
... go ahead beat your head against it... LOL


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

DaninVan said:


> ...


Nice one, Dan. I think I'll have that on my tombstone

Regards

Phil


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## CanuckGal (Nov 26, 2008)

The OP stated he was feeding right to left. It is nearly impossible to tell from a still picture which direction something is being fed. There have been many good theories throughout this thread on why this may have happened. The bottom line is it is imperative to take ALL safety precautions when using a router, and be aware that even with that there is still the possiblility things can go wrong. A split second is all it takes. 
Please remember the forum rules and respect other people's opinions even if you disagree - try to state your reasons without malice.


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

OK gentlemen, enough is enough. Please stop with all the name calling and insults. If you can not discuss the matter in a civil manner, then just agree to disagree and move on.


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## Hamlin (Dec 25, 2005)

The best thing that anyone can do is, "think" the process through first. Visualize it in your mind. You'll surprise yourself at what YOU can "see" happening BEFORE it happens. Accidents do happen but, they can be PREVENTED!! Most of the things that can help prevent an accident from happening is just plain "common sense".


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Just to be sure about what happened I went back to the beginning and read through until I found this:

_" I was feeding it right to left against the bit rotation, so it was not a climb cut, I would not do those intentionally. I was only cutting the curved part. I know it may sound a little confusing, I started my cut about 10" from the right end."_

We know the wood was being fed in the correct direction. Removing about 1/8" of material is a light cut and there should of been no problems. We may never know what caused this accident but we do know two things:

Never allow your fingers to be in the path of the cutter, both before and after the bit.

Use a bit guard whenever possible. Bob and Rick recommend using the guard shown in photo #1. I took this one step further with the VacGuard I designed in photo's #2 & 3.

I use push sticks if I feel there is any danger of being too close to a bit or blade. I kept the mangled push stick that saved my fingers as a reminder to be safe.

On a final note, if someone posts a comment that offends you do not respond to it. Click the report post button and one of the Moderation Team will handle it. This is the best place on the web for woodworking. Let's not spoil it with bickering.


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## CR1 (Aug 11, 2011)

I sort of suspect the OP's diagnosis was correct. His board rode up during what might likely have been a climb cut. If so that's two errors climb cutting and insufficient downward pressure. One error can usually be compensated for. Compound errors can be something more. 

I thought Bogydave's gizmo was pretty decent.
Router Forums - View Single Post - AK router table/stand progress
It overcomes the problem with the bearing placement below the cutter. In fact, I may build one. 

Everybody makes mistakes. Not everybody pays so dearly for them.


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

Another reason why I make my masters/templates/patterns, whatever you want to call them, my way. 

I use 1/2" plywood, make my master from that, then glue that to another piece of 1/2" plywood. Then rout around that, using the first as a guide. This gives me a master 1" thick, providing a nice hand hold, versus 1/4" anything. I drill nail pilot holes thru my master, and tack/nail it to the piece that will be routed. I can get a very nice firm grip on that 1" thick master, and have no problems routing. If I am making only one, possibly two, of anyone thing, I normally do not make a master - exceptions do occur, when pinpoint accuracy is required. But, any number of copies to be routed over two for sure, I make a master. As long as that very first piece is accurate, I can clone accurate copies one after another. 

When I first started, I tried the masonite, 1/4" plywood, even 1/2" plywood, masters. Wasn't happy. I wanted something I could get a good solid grip on, and the two layers of 1/2" plywood gives me that. A few times, when I've tried to hog a cut, or maybe feed the wrong way, the bit will grab, but I've always been able to control it - get it away from the bit - and I put that to the thickness of my masters. 

But, to each his/her own. I'm 72, and the worst accident I've had in the shop was sanding a few finger tips off in 9th grade shop, and cutting myself with my pocket knife. I don't count the fingers hit with hammers.


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## Sgt45 (Apr 13, 2013)

Hope you heal quickly, Darryl. We work with dangerous machines and if we could react at 3000 RPMs, we might be safer but we can't. Understand what you mean you're not sure what happened. I was cutting 10"x10" squares of plywood on a table saw years ago using the respect and caution I always have for power tools, yet suddenly a piece flew back into my gut knocking me down. I could'nt get my breath for 15 min. and the bruise & blood showed it missed my ribs by 1/2". Please everybody never take your mind off safety


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## r-ice (Feb 2, 2010)

*guard block*

Grr ripper system blocks

Now would something like this help prevent some of the damage if he had one of these? I've been thinking of picking up one of these.


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## GTVi (May 14, 2010)

Read through the whole thread, am pleased to have picked up some good tips from everyone. I will be keeping my fingers well away.


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## Gmww (May 19, 2013)

Oh my goodness. That has reminded me I need to purchase push blocks and such. Take care.


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## rjconti1 (Sep 29, 2013)

*effect of router rotation direction??*

I am new at using a router..... Just bought a trim router and puzzled that the recommended direction of motion is left to right..... The accident described noted the board was "caught" and thrown in the direction of the feed???? what is going on??
any comments???

Ron-- Murrieta Ca....


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Welcome to the forum Ron. If the router is above the work feed is left to right if working on an edge or up against a fence or guide strip. In a router table feed is right to left. Most say that if the bit is completely in the cut, such as a straight bit making a groove, that direction doesn't matter since the forces on one side of the bit are canceled out by equal forces on the other side of the bit.


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

Welcome to the forum, Ron.

Charles has explained as well, or better, than I could.

To me, a trim router should only be used, hand held to trim the edge of work. But that is just me.


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## guzforster (Jul 5, 2017)

Sorry for what happened to you 

So just so I understand - I'm very new to woodworking and it would be great to understand better on how these kind of accidents happen - the piece of wood flew right from your hand because you were cutting in the same direction that the bit was spinning, am I correct?


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

guzforster said:


> Sorry for what happened to you
> 
> So just so I understand - I'm very new to woodworking and it would be great to understand better on how these kind of accidents happen - the piece of wood flew right from your hand because you were cutting in the same direction that the bit was spinning, am I correct?


Welcome to the forum. 
This is an old thread you found. He has not been active for a few years according to his profile info . 
Pretty much got sick looking at his fingers . Like OMG you've gotta be kidding me ! 
This makes a person even more aware of how fast things can go south , and is worth seeing again as a reminder


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Hi Guz and welcome. If you are going back to the first post in this thread and the original poster was feeding left to right as is implied by the last few photos then yes he was feeding in the wrong direction. It appears he was using a pattern bit and feeding from the side he was on so in that situation then feed direction is right to left on a table. Just so you know this, putting a board between the fence and the bit is extremely dangerous and should never be done.

You can always determine the correct feed direction without having to do a lot of memory work. Feed direction should always be toward the flat face of the cutting edge. Feeding in this manner will require you to push the board into the cutter, or require you to force a handheld router to go that direction. If you are feeding the wrong way then the board or router will want to feed itself and will try to drag you along with it.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

feed direction...

.


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## N'awlins77 (Feb 25, 2011)

Yea, didn't notice it was an old post, right away, but was about to ask which way he was feeding. As it looked like he was climb cutting. Man, those are some messed up fingers!!


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

N'awlins77 said:


> Man, those are some messed up fingers!!


Im still cringing today at the very thought . I can't imagine how painful that must have been :fie: 

If anything , it's a good reminder of what potential hazards are there , and how fast things can go wrong .


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## JFPNCM (Dec 13, 2009)

As with all posts if you read them carefully there is much to be learned, particularly when it comes to safety. Thank you for the post Daryl and may your fingers recover well.


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