# Triton table operation with brass inserts (Veritas plate)



## crquack (Oct 10, 2008)

I have been playing with my Triton now mounted on the Veritas plate in my new table. The hole in the plate is 1.5" which allows the collet comfortably through for easy above-table bit changes.

As I was going to use smaller diameter bits I thoght I would put in the brass insert which came with the plate. This reduces the aperture to 0.75". Here I encoutered the following issues:

1) It is extremely awkward if not impossible to change the insert without removing the hefty three-piece saftety guard. This in itself is a pain because of the awkward placement of the holding screws.

2) Once in place, the insert prevents above the table bit changes

So here are my questions:

1) If the router is to stay mounted in the table, are the plastic guards really important?
2) Is reduction of the aperture from 1.5" to 0.75" of practical significance? I have used the table with a 1/2" bit without the insert albeit in limited fashion without noticing a problem.
3) The benefit of the Veritas plate is that the router can be used in a plunge mode without modifications. However, removing the guards makes this more dangerous, yes? 
4) How often does one use insert guides in a table (not just an insert to reduce the aperture, an actual template guide which apparently fits the same way)?

At this point it seems to me that the best solution is not to use the insert if at all possible, replace the guards and thus retain the best of both worlds of plunge and table routing. Or I could keep the router mounted in the table and buy another router for plunging  (my other router is a Crappy Tire weakling which only takes 1/4" shanks and in any case is dedicated to circle routing).

Thanks.


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## dovetail_65 (Jan 22, 2008)

I use all the reduction rings when I can. It is especially nice when you are using 1/4" bits in the table removing the huge gap from around the bit.

I guess you only have one insert so it may or may not be beneficial for whatever you are doing. Zero clearance can never hurt though.

I can get my fingers in just barely using an OP top and my Milwaukee.

Reduction Rings

I always wondered why OP only sells the one 3/4" and not a set. It was a hassle making my smaller reduction rings work with an OP top. I was messing with it all last week.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

HI crquack

1. Yes
2. Yes and No ,, the stock can deep down and jam.
3. Yes
4. all the time , when the bit is small  


Here's just one more place to get them 
At a better price 

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=51152&cat=1,43000,51208&ap=1

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=51208&cat=1,43000


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crquack said:


> I have been playing with my Triton now mounted on the Veritas plate in my new table. The hole in the plate is 1.5" which allows the collet comfortably through for easy above-table bit changes.
> 
> As I was going to use smaller diameter bits I thoght I would put in the brass insert which came with the plate. This reduces the aperture to 0.75". Here I encoutered the following issues:
> 
> ...


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## dovetail_65 (Jan 22, 2008)

A better price and the correct size for the OP table. 

I think I am ordering thanks Bob.


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## crquack (Oct 10, 2008)

OK, so I understand this clearly:

1) Do you a) Keep the guards on all the time under the table and found a way to get the inserts in and out without removing them or b ) Do you remove the router from the table, remove the guards, replace the insert, replace the guards and replace the router in the table?

If the answer is (a), can you share?

2) What function do the guards perform below the table? All the action is above the table. If the bit breaks (worst case scenario) is it likely to fly below the table?

3) Do you really use these:

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=41778&cat=1,43000,51208&ap=1

all the time rather than these:

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=51152&cat=1,43000,51208&ap=1

if the bit is small? Does not the collar get in the way of some work?

BTW that is where I got my Veritas plate from. I only got the one insert as it was the ony one offered together with the plate. If they are as important as is becoming apparent I should get the set.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

You're Welcome Nick

As you can see below I use them all the time 

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nickao65 said:


> A better price and the correct size for the OP table.
> 
> I think I am ordering thanks Bob.


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## crquack (Oct 10, 2008)

One other thing:

With the insert in place and the guards in place there is no way to change router bits that I can see. The only way to achieve this seems to be:

a) Remove the guards and change the bit below the table (kind of defeats the purpose, though)
b) Remove the insert, change above the table. But to remove the insert...well, you get the idea.


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## dovetail_65 (Jan 22, 2008)

Can you post a picture of underneath your set up if you get a chance?

I would like to see this Veritas plate Triton Combination working together, it sounds like a nightmare or at the very least cumbersome to work with.


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

crquack,

I believe the safety shrouds you are talking about are are part of the dust collection system.

As I don't use dust collection below table (I Know I will get feedback on that one ) I removed them so that I access the guide bushing ring.


James


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Nick

Here's a little bit of info for the Veritas


Veritas

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=41776&cat=1,43000,51208&ap=1
http://www.veritastools.com/Products/ProductList.aspx?cat=48
http://www.veritastools.com/Products/Page.aspx?p=207

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nickao65 said:


> Can you post a picture of underneath your set up if you get a chance?
> 
> I would like to see this Veritas plate Triton Combination working together, it sounds like a nightmare or at the very least cumbersome to work with.


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## downhill (Nov 21, 2008)

nickao65 said:


> Can you post a picture of underneath your set up if you get a chance?
> 
> I would like to see this Veritas plate Triton Combination working together, it sounds like a nightmare or at the very least cumbersome to work with.


I'd like to see this too as I think I'm getting that 3 1/4 hp model for Christmas and really I think I'm leaving it mounted under the table that I'm getting ready to work on. 


I'm also interested in that Veritas plate. Whats the consensus on it? I've not seen it before and it looks pretty interesting.


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## crquack (Oct 10, 2008)

It's this one:

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=41776&cat=1,43000,51208&ap=1

Tomorrow, when I thaw out, I shall take some pictures.

jw2170,
The manual refers to them separately as safety guards and a dust extraction port. I agree, I cannot make the system work with them in the table. The manual does not mention them specifically in the table-mounted operations section.

As for dust collection, from my limited observation most of the dust happens above the table. In fact there is an additional attachment to be used above the table. I have not done anything with it yet.

downhill,
I bought the Veritas plate because it was inexpensive, everyone whose comments I could find on the net and *who had direct experience with it* liked it and I have generally confidence in the stuff sold at Lee Valley.

I think the issue here may be specific to the Triton, mainly whether to remove the guards or not.

BTW, one final thought: Does the insert *need* to be screwed in when used in the table? If one allowed it to be held in the cut-out by gravity and perhaps pressure from the work-piece, life would be much simpler.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

"How often does one use insert guides in a table (not just an insert to reduce the aperture, an actual template guide which apparently fits the same way)?"

In my more than thirty years of routing...............NEVER!

In my humble opinion there is no substitute or safer method than plunge routing using template guides. My Triton TR001 is permanently mounted in the table with a large opening which will accept ANY cutter. It's a simple matter to make zero clearance inserts, in my case out of clear Perspex. I must also add that, again in my usual humble opinion, the Triton TR001 is superb in a table but woeful for plunge use. The less than a handful of people who have disagreed with me regarding the above statement turned out to have never used any other full size router, and so had no valid means of comparison.

A note for BJ...........What's happened to you, are you becoming a man of few words?
I refer of course to your yes no answers!


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

HI Harry

You should tune into the 
http://www.thewoodworkingchannel.com/
and watch the RWS shows,, you will be amaze how well the guides works in the router table 

Not to say anything about how many times you can use them. 

" *Table-mounted Routing,* Discussions solely based on operations that are using the table-mounted router. 
Bob and Rick say "More than 90% of all operations using the router can be done with the table-mounted router."

I know you're a big fan of the Plunge router, but take a look at some of the RWS shows...just for kicks... like they say you can teach a old dog new tricks it just takes a bit more time..(Longer) 

The best trick I like is the way Bob and Rick make templates on the router table using the guides or a trim bit...I was making some table saw inserts on Sat. and I forgot how easy it was....

Just as a side note, someone said they use floor laminate to make the inserts so I said I would give it a shot,,,I use the RAS saw to cut the blanks out and I saw SPARKS coming off the saw blade when I was cutting the blanks out...I turn the lights off just to make sure and I was right the stuff must have rocks in it...almost like cutting stone..

I have/had a new Freud 80 tooth blade in the saw and I check it afterwords and it now it's a bit dull .. just a tip off for anyone that wants to use that type of stock. ( use you old blade to cut the stock up) I also checked the router trim bit afterwords and now it's a bit dull on the top end of the router bit just under the bearing...


How's that Harry for being a bit more windy 

Just a note about the *** quick Yes and No thing,, sometimes the question have many things they would like to know about , it's sometimes best to say yes or no , and put the note back in the bottle..  no need to rehash it over again I think ...


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harrysin said:


> "How often does one use insert guides in a table (not just an insert to reduce the aperture, an actual template guide which apparently fits the same way)?"
> 
> In my more than thirty years of routing...............NEVER!
> 
> ...


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## Hamlin (Dec 25, 2005)

Hi,

If I'm understanding the "Veritas" correctly, it's a copy cat of the OP style, only with a round plate instead of a square one. Correct?

If so, then why worry about above bit changes? Just pop out an change bits, simple.

Or have I missed something, like I usually do?


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

We know from experience that a zero clearance insert on a table saw improves dust collection and reduces tear out. Follow that logic with your router as well. The large Oak Park style guide bushings are the best choice available for many members. It is worth having a set of them as well as the zero clearance bushings.


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## crquack (Oct 10, 2008)

Here some pictures - Part 1:

*Pic01* shows the router attached to the plate upside down. The retaining ring for the insert can be seen. It is clear that the collet cannot pass through for the bit change above the table.

*Pic02* shows the insert from the business side.

*Pic03-06* shows the guards in place. At this point there is no access to the retaining ring nor can one change the bits below the table as there is no room to insert a spanner and use it. Also not the screw position of the guards which makes it a major pain to remove them.

*Pic07* shows the inset removed. The collet passes through the opening and bit can be changed above the table as it was meant to.

*Pic08* shows the router upside down with the guards removed. the bit can be changed below the table as there is access for the spanner and the spindle stop can be pressed manually. Also there is now access to the insert retaining ring and the insert can be changed relatively easily.


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## dovetail_65 (Jan 22, 2008)

For table use I would take all that stuff off, but that's me. 

You definitely do not need it at as a safety shield under the table and I think you can get effective dust collection without it several different ways.


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## crquack (Oct 10, 2008)

Pictures - Part 2:

Here is a possible solution:

*Pic09* shows the retaining ring fixed to the underside of the plate (in this case by Bluetack - perhaps not the best but I was in a hurry).

*Pic10* show a simple way of unscrewing the insert.

*Pic11* shows the insert removed with the retaining ring in place. the collet can now pass through the opening and bit changes above the table are possible.

*Pic12* shows the router with the guards restored and the retaining ring still in place. It can now be used for plunge routing, the insert can be replaced with a template guide as necessary etc. Voila!

I went through quite a few references yesterday pertaining to a Triton router mounted in a table. None dealt with this issue. Some simply did not use inserts (apertures as big as 2.25" were considered OK). Some used inserts which were screwed to the top of the table obviating the need for access to the underside of the plate.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi crquack

This what I would suggest you do to get around the error you are having.
1st. send off for a HF mounting plate from HF, once you get it take yours off the router and copy it with a band saw and trim bit..

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=94331

Then once you have that done put the new one on the router and then you have a snap out ring set to make it easy to change the bits out..or use the guide rings..
I woulds also take off all the dust shields if you are going to use it for the table most of the time...
The shields are made to keep the chips out of face ..when you use the router by hand.. 

I would also suggest you use the bigger guides but it's not a big deal.

http://www.routerforums.com/showthread.php?p=89748#post89748

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crquack said:


> Pictures - Part 2:
> 
> Here is a possible solution:
> 
> ...


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## crquack (Oct 10, 2008)

> This what I would suggest you do to get around the error you are having.
> 1st. send off for a HF mounting plate from HF, once you get it take yours off the router and copy it with a band saw and trim bit..
> 
> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=94331


Soon as they start shipping to Canada



> I woulds also take off all the dust shields if you are going to use it for the table most of the time...
> The shields are made to keep the chips out of face ..when you use the router by hand..


That is what I was wondering about in my initial post. Once that is done the rest becomes a non-issue.

In any case, I am*sure* I need another router for plunging. And a Bosch Colt. And...and...


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

HI crquack

You can skip over to Grizzy and get one it's bit higher in price but it would work..
1821 Valencia St., Bellingham, WA 98229
right down I-5 and you're at the door step...

http://grizzly.com/products/Precision-Router-Insert-Plate/T20368


====

quote=crquack;91176]Soon as they start shipping to Canada



That is what I was wondering about in my initial post. Once that is done the rest becomes a non-issue.

In any case, I am*sure* I need another router for plunging. And a Bosch Colt. And...and...[/quote]


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## Hamlin (Dec 25, 2005)

Hi Bj,

Just curious here but, wouldn't be simpler to just make a new plate? He already has the template. Again, just curious my friend.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Ken

I'm not 100% sure but I think he needs more room to get into the collet nut and use the brass guides...the plastic snap-in-rings will fix that but if he just makes a new plate he will not have the rings..the norm...it's true he can make is own set but it's much essayer to just buy a plate and rework it..


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Hamlin said:


> Hi Bj,
> 
> Just curious here but, wouldn't be simpler to just make a new plate? He already has the template. Again, just curious my friend.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

First off Bj, I'm pleased to see you in full voice again. Second, plunge routing with template guides is so much safer than the method you are espousing, you can SEE exactly what the cutter is doing and where it is at all times, should you run into a problem release the grip on the router and the cutter instantly pops back into the safety of the body. I can never be accused of being one eyed about any aspect of woodworking, in the time I've been a member of this forum I've learned heaps of things from many members, particularly from you Bob, but standing back and viewing both methods from a distance, I have to dig my heels in on this one. Would sight impaired people be safe using "your" method as they are plunging?


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

HI Harry

I see your point 
" Would sight impaired people be safe using "your" method as they are plunging?" NO .. I can only say if some one was in my shop and if they where sight impaired and turned on the router I would walk out the door, I don't like to see people get hurt.. I don't know how Tom gets it done...

The router table I think is for people with good sight...or to say with fair sight.. 
I don't need to see the tires turning to know they are 

Ping Pong
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harrysin said:


> First off Bj, I'm pleased to see you in full voice again. Second, plunge routing with template guides is so much safer than the method you are espousing, you can SEE exactly what the cutter is doing and where it is at all times, should you run into a problem release the grip on the router and the cutter instantly pops back into the safety of the body. I can never be accused of being one eyed about any aspect of woodworking, in the time I've been a member of this forum I've learned heaps of things from many members, particularly from you Bob, but standing back and viewing both methods from a distance, I have to dig my heels in on this one. Would sight impaired people be safe using "your" method as they are plunging?


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## dovetail_65 (Jan 22, 2008)

I don't know, but I just prefer a table and use it first if I can. If I finally do not see a way to use the table then I go to manually using the router.

How can the table can be any less safe than using the router traditionally? I can not see that at all. They are both equally safe and not safe.

It seems some will sit around and think of a way to make something work in a hand held just to prove it can be done *and vice versa*. I think most things from the beginning are usually crystal clear as to what method to use. It's simple for me, use the table unless it is impractical to do so. 

Using a router hand held is very dangerous just as using a table mounted router is very dangerous, this one verse the other based on safety is a ridiculous argument. They are both safe when used properly and both not safe when not used properly and both are dangerous if care is not taken.

Basing the choice of router table verse hand held router on the operation that needs to be done, the users comfortableness with either method AND the tools a certain person may have access to is what makes sense, IMHO.

Is it safer to jump at a train from the left or the right?


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

"Is it safer to jump at a train from the left or the right?"

Hardly a valid analogy.

Don't forget, this discussion is NOT about table routing per say, but comparing template routing on the table versus hand held both using template guides. 

I'm sure that the partly finished clock shown could be routed on the table but I haven't figured out how.


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