# Turning-in my Porter Cable Membership



## mjdorsam (Nov 27, 2011)

A sad day for me ... I've been a PC user for 25 years, or more. I've watched the descent of PC as it became a brand within Stanley Black & Decker.

Today, I wanted to practice Mortise & Tenon cuts for an outdoor bench I'm making - 40 M&Ts in all; each requiring the use of a template guide (which is complete). I purchased the bit and guide collar from Whiteside. Installing the bit, I realized it was rubbing on the collar - the reason was the Plunge base did not tightly hold the motor assembly - it wobbled. Shifting to my Fixed base, it's not centered with the collet - now that I look at it, clearly it's off-center.

My options are to purchase another base - perhaps my two bases (Fixed & Plunge) have somehow gotten out of alignment; or my plunge posts have become loose, or my fixed base assembly isn't ... something ... so it's not holding the motor assembly tightly perpendicular to the base. Or perhaps, my woodworking expectations have increased over the years, and I'm less tolerant of 'play' within my tools. 

So, I'm going to look at Bosch & Festool - my trust in these brands remains.


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

I guess you know what my choice would be Mike.

PS: Notice what color Mark chose for my name?


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## TomB19 (Jun 27, 2011)

I used my Dad's old Craftsman router for a lot of years, until the bearings piled up. About 15 years ago, I picked up a PC 690 kit with both bases. It was selected because I was told it was a decent enough router at a reasonable price.

In the last few years, I've picked up several more "high end" routers including the big Milwaukee for my router table, 2 x Hitachi M12V, the big bosch (not sure why I got it, other than online people bragging about how good it is), and a couple of trim routers. Needless to say, I'm over equipped on the router front.

... so I view the old PC690 as a garage sale item, suitable to abuse, disposable.

... and what abuse it has taken. A couple of weeks ago, I used it to plow a flat bottomed dado in drywall so I could bury a low voltage alarm wire in a wall. The drywall dust was pouring out of that thing, as I slid it across the wall. That can't be good for the bearings.

Anyway, this past weekend I used it to cut some oak pieces from a template and found myself marveling on how great it still works after all these years of use and abuse, and how well made it is. My plunge base was never any good but the fixed base and the motor have the comfort of an old friend.

No soft start. No curvy plastic moldings. No variable speed. It's just a crude aluminum body with a steel toggle switch that will jerk your wrists when you snap it on but it is totally reliable, cuts accurately, and has a nice feel to it when it's cutting. It will leave your ears ringing if you run it long without protection, though. lol!

I feel we're losing a good brand, with the downward spiral of Porter Cable.


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## TomB19 (Jun 27, 2011)

mjdorsam said:


> My options are to purchase another base - perhaps my two bases (Fixed & Plunge) have somehow gotten out of alignment;


Have you checked the template bushing to make sure the hole is perfectly centered?


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## papawd (Jan 5, 2011)

Well that being said is going back to a post I made a while back about "Quality of tools" My Ridgid table saw will out perform the Porter Cable table saw I had only 2 years apart and $100.00 but a WORLD of difference in the quality...... Just sold a Dewalt jigsaw and now own a Bosch same thing here what a difference


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## mjdorsam (Nov 27, 2011)

Thanks - all.

I've thought about my initial post throughout this day; and I'll probably ask the Forum Liaison to delete it, if I can't - not that I believe it's incorrect or over-stated; just that I'm not a negative person, at heart. I'm angry that PC has diminished so badly - I have several old generation PC tools that remain workhorses - a tougher-than-nails Reciprocating saw which helped me remove over 600 sq ft of deck - and more; the quintessential Palm sander which still provides glass-smooth finishes; but I've had to throw out two Random Orbit sanders, a jig saw, and now the Router - these are not old tools.
Most of my hand power tools are now Bosch - replacing the PC tools I've discarded, as well as new tools I've purchased as needed. The Bosch is my preferred replacement; though, I'm enamored with Festool's system. Mike (from Detroit) speaks highly of the Bosch routers - and I know he's demanding of his tools.
Thanks, again.


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## kt6762 (Jul 28, 2012)

Am I wrong ,but didnt rockler use to be PORTER CABLE.


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Mike, there is no reason to delete this thread. Black & Decker bought Porter Cable with the intention of destroying it. They have done a great job of it. I still own many older quality PC power tools but will not spend a penny on the new stuff.

Ken, Rockwell split into Porter Cable for portable tools and Delta for stationary tools. No affiliation with the new Rockwell.


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## mjdorsam (Nov 27, 2011)

The Bosch MRC23 looks like a great choice. 

Mike - I think I've read somewhere that Bosch has a track system, similar to Festool's; do you know of it, or is it still the 'stuff which dreams are made of' (from the Maltese Falcon).
Thanks.


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

I really like my MRC23EVSK. It has a couple of improvements over the 1617: a bit more power, always on LED work lights, a power cord that swivels to eliminate twisting and safety catches to stop the router from falling out of the base when removing it. I highly recommend the optional dust collection accessories for the 23 and the 1617; reduced clean up and healthy lungs are a big plus. Both do an excellent job at capturing the debris.

I am not aware of a Bosch track system but it is easy to build your own with a piece of 1/4" Masonite or plywood and a 1 x 2". I gave mine to a friend and will photo shoot the new one when I build it. (Just need to get a sheet of Masonite) This style does double duty if one side is for your router and the other for your circular saw.


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## mjdorsam (Nov 27, 2011)

Mike - Thanks.

I could spend several hundred dollars buying one; or use some common sense and basic woodworking skills, like you recommend, to build one. I'm sold ...


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## Gene Howe (Jul 10, 2007)

mjdorsam said:


> Mike - Thanks.
> 
> I could spend several hundred dollars buying one; or use some common sense and basic woodworking skills, like you recommend, to build one. I'm sold ...


The one I built has a t track on the saw side. Didn't see a need on the router side. 
BTW, I too, am saddened and just plain pissed about PC's decline, tho it could easily have been predicted when B&D became involved. 
I only own one Bosch tool, a jig saw. It replaced a real POS from Dewalt. If this saw is any indication of the quality of Bosch tools, you can bet my next Router will be a Bosch.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Ditto on _not_ deleting the original post. I have NO sympathy for companies that deliberately degrade their product quality, supposedly in the name of increased profit, at the expense of their customers. 
B&D did it back in the '80s to their own brand, lowering everything to the cheapest 'Homeowner' category. Why do they, or any other mfg., think that the "Homeowner" wants cr*p?! ...oh wait; yes they do.


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## bcfunburst (Jan 14, 2012)

*Loose Base Fix?*



mjdorsam said:


> A sad day for me ... I've been a PC user for 25 years, or more.
> 
> I've seen the descent of PC as it became a brand within Stanley Black & Decker; and I have a professional colleague who was VP-Marketing there, for PC, and have heard the stories of reduced engineering spending, and the homogenization of the Dewalt/PC/B&D build quality.
> 
> ...


I may be living in a daydream, but could you possibly fix your loose router base with a band of metal duct tape to take up the slack??? I don't know, and have not had to try it; just a suggestion! I agree with all of you about the sad decline of PC tools. I have an older PC saber saw that is such an incrediblely smooth, well handling cutting tool!! Too bad the L blades are so hard to find now. Seems there is nothing good to say about B&D tools any more. I've had no experience with Festool, except to say "their prices are insane"!!


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

mjdorsam said:


> I think I've read somewhere that Bosch has a track system, similar to Festool's; do you know of it, or is it still the 'stuff which dreams are made of' (from the Maltese Falcon).


Hi Mike

Bosch actually have *two* guide rail systems over here in Europe, the older one dates back about 12 to 15 years and is similar to, but not the same as the Festool system. Still available, although not that common. The "hump" in it is compatible with Festool guide rail adaptors and Bosch have made adaptors for it which allow the use of the GOF900, GOF1300 and GOF1700/GOF2000 routers - Mike, I'm not sure what these routers are called in the USA. Unfortunately we see very few Bosch fixed base or combo routers here in Europe so I'm not sure if Bosch make adaptors which would suit them

The most recent Bosch rail system came in within the introduction of the Bosch GKT55CE, a plunge rail saw made for Bosch by Mafell and which is very similar, though not the same as the Mafell MT55cc plunge saw. This system is not compatible with the older rail system. Mafell make a guide rail adaptor for their LO65 router which fits this rail and so should fit the larger Bosch plunge routers

Regards

Phil


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## mjdorsam (Nov 27, 2011)

Phil:

Thanks - I thought that I had seen something, but was unsure. I've seen the Mafell offering, though, I assumed it was proprietary to their products. Also, Bosch does not market (though, they may still sell) their guide rail system for the US market. Festool dominates the Forums when it comes to a 'systems' approach. For example, it's logical for Bosch to integrate their top-of-the-line MRC23 router with their rail system, but I've not come across this in my research. 
Your last sentence - about the LO65 router - could you run that past me again?

Thanks, again.
MikeD


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## kevinrf (Oct 11, 2012)

Hi, first post to the forum. I, too, was/is a PC fan. 2/3 of my corded tools are PC. I got out of woodworking for some time and lost track of PC, only knowing that they had been sold. Anyway, to speed things up, I was at the Dewalt (psst...PC) authorized service center in Portland, OR, recently whining about the demise of PC. The manager of the center stated that the router line was not trashed as with the rest. As to the original post of this thread, I cannot speak/write with respect to the plunge bases and I am not sure whether this person was referring to the motors only or the whole tool. FWIW.


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

mjdorsam said:


> Your last sentence - about the LO65 router - could you run that past me again?


Sorry Mike, I missed your question last time. The thread popped up again today, so I'll answer it now.

Bosch have two guide rail systems, the older FSN system which has been around since the late 1990s and the new system which at present is only compatible with the GKT55CE plunge saw. There are adaptors to allow the use of the Bosch GOF900CE,/GOF1300CE and GOF1700ACE/GOF2000CE routers on the older FSN rails and these should also work with the MR23 (sold in Europe as the GMF1600CE). To use the GOF1700ACE/GOF2000CE routers on the new guide rail system you'd need to buy a Mafell guide rail adaptor for their LO65e/LO65ec router because the new Bosch GKT guide rails are actually made by Mafell and Mafell's LO65ec router uses the same fence rods (10mm diameter) and centres as the current and previous large Bosch plunge routers

Regards

Phil


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Bosch is introducing a new rail system in the US next year.


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## mjdorsam (Nov 27, 2011)

Phil:

Thanks for the follow-up.

I will tell you that I miss my European travel. For the UK, I've worked extensively in Bristol, London, Slough, and Sheffield; and spent about a month in Newcastle Upon Tyne last year.

The Europeans seem to always be ahead of us (US) on Tooling - I've become a fan of Felder products, and recently bought the Hammer N4400 bandsaw. 
I believe the MRC23 (GOF1600CE) is the top-end Bosch router sold in the States, though I have not checked in the past two months. Also, as mentioned, there's no news here on a guide-rail system. I'll look at the Mafell site again, to see if I can speak with someone there, to ensure I'm ordering the correct parts - the guide rails, adaptors, ...). 

My winter project is Matthias Wandel's Pantorouter (a highly efficient, versatile, cost-effective Multi-router) - bought the plans last night, for which I'll use either a 12- or 15-amp Bosch router; though, the PC891 is a very good motor. I'll modify the Plans to incorporate Linear Bearings, and include centerline & miter calibrations - the Plans are exceptionally well done; the design - brilliant. If you haven't seen this tool, I highly recommend it. 

To Kevinrf's comment - I agree that the Routers seem to have been spared; though, I've been told by in-company technical-types that the motor windings have been downgraded - I don't know this for a fact. However, the rest of the Router world has advanced - both Bosch & Festool (cost not being considered) have substantially modernized their lines. When I look at the older generation PC tools I own (1/2" drill, ricip saw, 6" sawboss - these tools are powerful, well-used, and will never wearout. However, I've trashed several newer PC sanders, jigsaws, cordless drills.

Time marches on.
MikeD


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## mjdorsam (Nov 27, 2011)

Mike:

You posted while I was responding to Phil - thanks for the information: worth the wait, certainly. I assume the Mafell equipment is very expensive, and not necessarily engineered specifically for the Bosch line.

MikeD


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

mjdorsam said:


> Also, as mentioned, there's no news here on a guide-rail system. I'll look at the Mafell site again, to see if I can speak with someone there, to ensure I'm ordering the correct parts - the guide rails, adaptors, ...).


Hi Mike

That's a shame. The European parts references for the Bosch guide rails are: 

Old style - FSN70 and FSN140

New style - FSN1100 and FSN1600 (these are the Mafell compatible ones). The Bosch guide rails are identical to the Mafell ones but are a lot cheaper for some reason

Which router is it that you are trying to run on a guide rail, BTW? I ask because the Bosch guide rail adaptors for their plunge routers are all compatible with the Festool/Makita/Metabo guide rails because the "guide hump" on the rail is identical with the Bosch rail - I've run a Festool Of1000e on a Bosch FSN1400 guide rail this way in the recent past. Depending on what you want to do you may onlu =y have to order one adaptor from the EU



mjdorsam said:


> I assume the Mafell equipment is very expensive, and not necessarily engineered specifically for the Bosch line.


Mafell are an odd company. They make stuff for others (e.g. the front end of the Atlas-Copco/Milwaukee PJ710 biscuit jointer, some of tyhe European Hilti saws, the Bosch GKT55GCE and rails, and at one time the Festool OF2000e router) but they also buy-in (their LO50e router is a modified version of the original Festool OF900, their 150mm random orbit sander is made by Metabo, etc). When they design their own stuff (like the DD40 Duo Dowler or the P1cc jigsaw) there is always something special and _better_ about it.

The Mafell routers aren't all that compatible with the Bosch routers other than the LO65e/c being able to use the same fence/rods as the Bosch GOF1700ACE/GOF2000CE which in turn are compatible with the deWalt DW625/DW626 and their Elu predecessors. Sometimes useful to know where you can "alternate souce" from IMHO

Regards

Phil


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## mjdorsam (Nov 27, 2011)

Phil:

Thanks for the detailed information. I purchased the MRC23EVS about 3 months ago (Mike was kind to recommend it to me), and I immediately asked it cut 24 deep mortises in Jatoba. It is a well-made, 15-amp router - smooth, quiet, and powerful. The router performed well - better than its new owner: I royally messed-up the template-routing, but not bad enough to impact the project.

I'm on a mission to make my workplace safer and more systematic, and am looking at tools which are more ergonomic or engineered with more safety in mind. I think the Festools have done this well (the Domino and MFT/3, which I've purchased), but I balk at the cost of their equipment which competes product-for-product with Bosch & DeWalt. The CMS router table - though I like the sliding table, dust collection, and guard - is priced well outside of my wallet, and will not receive serious consideration when I upgrade.

Again, Thanks.
MikeD


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Hi again Mike

I was talking to Bosch Tech in the UK this morning and they guy there told me that the MRC23 (or GOF1600CE/GMF1600CE as we call it here) uses the same fence as the GOF1300CE (or 1613EVS in the USA). That fence has 8mm or 5/16in fence rods and the fence is a direct swap for the fence supplied with the deWalt DW613/DW615/DW620/DW621/DW622 routers and a host of small Elus and compatibles. Unfortunately you won't find an adaptor to fit the new Bosch/Mafell guide rails for it. You will find an adaptor to fit the older FSN70/FSN140 guide rails, part number 2 609 200 143

The manual for the GOF1300CE is here, but I've Taken the liberty of "borrowing" this illustration of the guide rail adaptor (which is also a trammel head):










Part #36 - router compass/guide rail adaptor (Part # 2 609 200 143 - not a cheap part at circa US$80 plus shipping from the UK (unless you can source it in the USA) 
Part #42 - base spacer (included with #36)
Part #43 - guide rail (see my notes on this)

The nice thing about this adaptor is that it can be used not only with the Bosch plungers (POF800, GOF900, GOF1200, GOF1300, GOF1600, GOF1700, GOF2000 and US equivalents), the combo MRC23 (GOF/GMF1600) but it will also work with any router with a compatible fence to the old Elu MOF96 (which means DW613/DW615/DW620/DW621/DW622, stuff like the Virutex FR278 and Perles OF-808, Trend T5, etc) AND because it takes both 8mm and 10mm guide rods it could also be used on the deWAlt DW625/DW626, Trend T10/T11, Festool OF2000/2200 and Mafell LO65 (all of which are compatible with the Bosch GOF1600/1700/2000 routers). 

Because the "hump" on the old FSN70/FSN140 rails are compatible with the Festool style rail and have the same vertical offset (5mm) it is also possible to use this adaptor on Festool, Makita, Virutex or Metabo guide rails. You may not (yet) have the Metabo or Virutex rails in the USA, but I know that the Festool and Makita guide rails are widely available (annd the Makita is very reasonably priced). 

The upshot of all this is if you could get the adaptor for a GOF1300CE router it will fit your MRC23, although you may need to make or modify the 5mm thick sub-base from the GOF1300CE to fit it, and the outfit should then run on guide rails available in the USA from Makita or Festool. If you want to double check this mic. your fence rods and measure the distance between them (centres) and I'll confirm the centres on a GOF1300CE over here for you

BTW sorry for referring to the GOF2000CE - that's what the sell the 1619EVS as in the EU and related markets whilst the GOF1700ACE was our version of the US market 1615EVS

Sorry for such a long post - it took me a while to marshall the available information and check it for accuracy. Hope it's of help to you

Regards

Phil


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## mjdorsam (Nov 27, 2011)

Wow! That's a lot of useful information; and I can appreciate that it took quite some effort to get it - Thanks, and there is much here to help me. 
As Mike mentioned in his earlier post, Bosch evidently has a railing system scheduled for next year; though, I'll pursue your information directly. I had the big Elu many years ago, and it was a great machine - I went overseas for 15+/- years, and sold just about everything I owned.
On the fence rods, one approach to M&Ts is to double-up the straight-edge (you need longer rods for this), and capture the work between them (two simple length-of-mortise stops complete the approach).
I assume the GOF2000 is 2,000 watts, about 17 amps - big machine. I'm making the Wandel Pantorouter this winter - I'll start when I receive my new BS (Hammer N4400) - sold my Delta 14" for a good price; this should take me about two months to complete - I'll design this around either the 1617 or the MRC23 motor.

Again, Thanks for the personal effort, and navigating me through the Bosch maze.
MJCD


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

mjdorsam said:


> I assume the GOF2000 is 2,000 watts, about 17 amps - big machine.


Yep., that's it - called a 1619EVS in the USA. Mike says it has a plunge lockout for use under the router table. If Bosch are introducing a guide rail system in the USA next year what's the betting it will be the new style rail (i.e. not Festool compatible). Presumably at thet point we get a router guide rail adaptor for the new guide rail, too

Regards

Phil


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## Harrison67 (May 30, 2012)

One of my old friends used to work for Rockwell, making power hand drills. One day they came out and changed the (Blueprints) main gears, to nylon. Instead of metal.


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## mjdorsam (Nov 27, 2011)

I'm old-school - I see this everyday, as I read the newspapers, read the news online, interact with my resident grandchildren. As such, I believe there will always be high-quality tools for the commercial/industrial users; that the rest of us will find and use. For my two-cents, this list is decreasing.


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## Drew Eckhardt (Aug 2, 2008)

kevinrf said:


> Hi, first post to the forum. I, too, was/is a PC fan. 2/3 of my corded tools are PC. I got out of woodworking for some time and lost track of PC, only knowing that they had been sold. Anyway, to speed things up, I was at the Dewalt (psst...PC) authorized service center in Portland, OR, recently whining about the demise of PC. The manager of the center stated that the router line was not trashed as with the rest. As to the original post of this thread, I cannot speak/write with respect to the plunge bases and I am not sure whether this person was referring to the motors only or the whole tool. FWIW.


Both fixed and plunge bases from my 890 kit are bad. The tolerances are bad on the mounting pattern for the fixed base (which works OK with the counter-bored screw holes in the new clear sub-bases, but isn't so hot for other sub-bases with counter-sunk holes like my circle jigs, offset bases, etc. where the last of the screws doesn't want to thread in). The plunge base adds a sloppy mechanism which wiggles to one side when plunging.

Neither of those problems were present in my 690 series plunge base from the mid 1990s.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Heh...this degradation of quality, in the chase for lower cost/higher profit margin, brings to mind these insanely badly built drill press vices...
4" Cross Slide Drill Press Vise Metal Milling Machine - Amazon.com

The reviews are the _positive_ ones! 
I'm pretty sure they came out of Mao's back yard smelters.


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

DaninVan said:


> Heh...this degradation of quality, in the chase for lower cost/higher profit margin, brings to mind these insanely badly built drill press vices...


Ah yes, Dan, but they're c - h - e - a - p . Reviews include, "I am totally happy with the vise because I had 30 dollar expectations for a 30 dollar product. " aas well as "Boat anchor.....and not a good one". Priceless and very entertaining

Thanks

Phil


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## Sawdust Don (Nov 1, 2012)

Iam very new to the router, but having a great time of it. Learning so much from the forum here. 

My only real router so far is a PC 890 type 1, I found at a yard sale.
Iam a machinist and have many measuring tools, this is what I found.

The motor is accuratly made, and true with itself, tested on a large V block on a surface plate.
The collets both 1/4" and 1/2" are accurate, to machine tool standards within a couple of tenths of one thousanth.
The motor runs smoother then most other routers I have tried, just turning them on. Iam on a budgit , so I have been looking at used routers, pawn shops and such.

The fixed base on my PC 890 was pretty badly out of square, and not true to the center line of the motor.
For some reason, they did not machine the face of the base, leaving it rough cast.
The plastic base plate was cracked at the screw holes, because of the uneven surface.
The center line of the motor being off from the edge of the base made centering the router to my table plate too hard to do.

I turned the OD of a short piece of pipe in a lathe, clamped the router base to it, turned the face, its step, and the outer edge of the base true to the machined ID.
I would think that the factory would have done that.

Anyway, by doing that, the router mounted very true, and centered to my table plate.
In the photo here, the machined outer edge of the base can be seen. It was out of true to the center line of the motor almost 1/16", about a mile, in the way I look at things.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Hey, Don; do you do house calls? Have I got a job for _you_!


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## Sawdust Don (Nov 1, 2012)

I would sure like to, but, I have too many projects going!

Don


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