# Finger Joints & Plywood



## sreilly (May 22, 2018)

Well as I hone my old rusty skills and learn new ones I have started another project for my shop by way of a hanging tool cabinet. The plans I'm using are from a Woodsmith book titles Shop Cabinets & Tool Stands. In this plan the box sides are all hardwood while the door panels and back are plywood. As I'm a bit short on hardwoods at the moment and have 10 sheets of plywood I asked myself why not make it all from plywood? I have an Incra IBox Jig which I've had very little practice with but am wondering if plywood could work well for this joint? I can't imagine a reason not and research hasn't turned up any negatives but I'd like to ask those who have the experience for suggestions. And yes, I can get hardwood but I thought the ply is cheaper, already on hand, and maybe a good practice exercise that may turn out just fine. Any thoughts?


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

poor quality limited ply plywood can easily turn in an exercise in futility...
clean your cutters often because of the glue...
rapid tooling dulling is a given because of the glue also...
make sure your tooling is as sharp as it can be...
waste boards are a must...


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## CharlesWebster (Nov 24, 2015)

Trying to make box joints in shop-grade plywood is an exercise in frustration. I used waste boards on both sides, I used the best all-carbide up-cut bit I could buy, I made my jig with as much precision as I could muster, and I still cut hundreds of failures. Mostly because of tear out. The shop-grade ply glue is not good enough to hold the laminations together under the cutting stress, and the voids in the ply ruin the fingers.

If you insist on using plywood, use high quality Baltic Birch (Russian) plywood and as Stick says, clean your cutter frequently.

Best of luck!


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

For shop stands and cabinets, using regular, 5-7 layer, 3/4 ply, I'd skip the box joints and go to another kind of joint. If you use Baltic Birch, which has about 13 layers and no voids, you could use box joints, but I don't know whether you'd like seeing all the layers every other finger. For all ply cabinetry, consider using dados and rabbits, or even easier, pocket holes (with glue). 

Pocket holes have to be drilled in places where they won't be seen, or filled in. They are plenty strong if installed every 5 inches or so. Make certain your saw blade is 90 to the table and the fence 90 to the blade, pocket holes will then pull your cabinet or stand square, and pocket holes do the same to 90 degree cuts to face frame rails and stiles.

Rabbit and dado construction is quite nice for cabinets as well, but you need to make certain they are held square during glue-up. 

When you make tool stands, consider adding casters, two fixed on the back, 2 swivel with both wheel and swivel locks so you can prevent movement when in use. Put doors on all cabinets and stands, it will help keep sawdust from invading every nook and cranny.

I've built a lot of stands for my tools, every one with doors. I've used both the metonds (dados/rabbets, pocket holes) and all stands are ridgid after years of use. For no particular reason, I use spherical 1.25 inch knobs painted a very intense, high gloss Ferrari red--it's cheerful.

I also have the same jig, but most of my projects are BB ply these days. BTW, you could make the cabinet out of carefully selected pine, stained, it will look pretty nice. HD has some 1x4 by nearly an inch thickness. Pick nice pieces, joint or cut a flat edge, cut the other edge flat, and use them to glue up your panels. These have very small knots that stay tight, and the extra thickness lets you plane to even everything up. If you're fussy and lucky, you can find some clear pine that's straight, but you might have to visit several Orange stores to find the number of pieces you need. I generally make face frames from nice straight pieces of hardwood. Again, pick the pieces carefully, or even cut them out from straight, flat sections of larger pieces. Then box joints make sense, and you can enjoy using that great jig-just buy enough wood so you can make some test joints to tune the jig.

Stick's admonitions apply.


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

I did something vaguely similar, using plywood, years ago. Well, it was a toy box, which is vague enough. Around 20 years ago in fact. I just used glue strips on the inside. And still holding up, still being used.


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## CharleyL (Feb 28, 2009)

I have two questions: 

1- Are you making box joints or finger joints? To me, for joining box corners, you want to make "Box Joints". Box joints have square ended pins and are used for making box corners.. Finger joints have tapered pins and are used for joining boards end to end to make the resulting board longer.

2- What kind of plywood do you have? 
You will need "void free" plywood for making boxes and cabinets using "Box Joints". Baltic Birch and Marine quality plywood has no internal voids so they do well for making boxes and cabinets. Construction plywood has internal voids and does not make good joints with the Incra I-Box jig.

I use my Unisaw with My I-Box jig because I've found that I can get cleaner cuts using my saw and the SBOX8 blade than I was able to get easily using the jig on my router table. This is because the saw blade cuts in only one direction as it passes through the work. A sacrificial piece in the I-Box jig becomes a zero clearance insert, keeping the blade from breaking the edges of the cut on the back side. When cutting with a router bit, the rotation of the bit cuts in both directions as it passes through the work. To get chip free edges on both sides of the cut, a second sacrificial piece must be added to the back side of the work as well, so both sides are protected as the cuts are made.It can be done, but I find that it's easier, faster, and produces better results if I use my I-Box jig on my table saw. 

Earlier this year I made about 20 boxes from Baltic Birch plywood, joining all of the corners using my I-Box jig on my Unisaw. I had perfect results. Plywood can be used to make boxes and cabinets, if the plywood is void free and you use sacrificial pieces to prevent tear-out. If your plywood isn't this good you should find another way to join the pieces. Solid wood corners with plywood panels between is one way.

Charley


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

I agree with Charley on using a TS to cut the fingers. The saw blade only puts pressure back and slightly down. When a router bit enters the wood the left side is spinning outward which wants to tear the grain on that side and when it exits the cut the right side is trying to do the same thing. Both machines can make fingers but the saw does it better so why use a router?

My daughter needed some bench/storage chests to use as storage and seats around her dining table a few years ago. I used some 1 1/2" square pine for corners which I put stopped rabbets in which made the upper portions L shaped. I then glued and screwed 1/2" mdf panels into the rabbets. Along the top and bottom of the mdf sides I trimmed it with 1/4" wood to improve the looks of it. They looked pretty good and they held up close to 500 lbs when used at the table. So that's an alternate possibility for you that will hide the edges of the ply, nit involve cutting fingers and have the plys exposed and is fairly easy to make. You don't need much solid wood to do it either.


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## hawkeye10 (Jul 28, 2015)

I tried using the router table but the blow out was too bad so I started using my TS. I made this box with my TS and Russian 1/2" Baltic Birch.


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## sreilly (May 22, 2018)

CharleyL said:


> I have two questions:
> 
> 1- Are you making box joints or finger joints? To me, for joining box corners, you want to make "Box Joints". Box joints have square ended pins and are used for making box corners.. Finger joints have tapered pins and are used for joining boards end to end to make the resulting board longer.
> 
> ...


For some reason I called them finger joints when indeed they are box joints. As for tearout I didn't get any. With the Incra jig I made sacrificial fences to reduce/eliminate the tearout and that has worked extremely well. I move the fence for each new width cut. So if I'm making a 1/2" cut I'll have a new area that's not cut, lock the fence, amke my cut and continue. If I need to change the cut width I'll set the blade width, and make a new cut into the fence (on the IBox jig). My biggest issue was the joints on the test pieces were way too tight to allow any glue. 

As for the plywood, I've not seen a single void or football and it's rated AA. At $56 a 4x8 sheet I seriously doubt it's Russian Birch. I'm not even sure I could find that within a reasonable drive from home. I do have the IBox jig as mentioned and was actually a little surprised to see this plan calling for box joints. However I was trying, still ma, to build as planned especially seeing how this is a shop tool cabinet. And yes, I'm using the table saw (SawStop) and my Freud SD208 dado set to make the 1/2" cuts.

I did make a trip yesterday to a woodyard 1.5 hours away in Culpeper, Va (C P Johnson) and bought some wide quartersawn poplar to use for the sides/top/bottom. My concern about less wide boards is I haven't made any cauls yet for gluing up boards yet so I wanted to get the flattest wood I could. This quartersawn could easily just be planed and skip the jointer. Of course I need to do the edges but I mean this is square evensome flat wood. I need to plan don the 4/4 to 3/4" but I expect that anyway. 

I'll experiment with the ply some but will get busy prepping this poplar for use. 

Thanks for the advice, especially the blades and glue. I'll make sure the blades are clean and sharp.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

sreilly said:


> For some reason I called them finger joints when indeed they are box joints.


Actually the most common term for box joints is finger joints. The reason being when you lace your fingers together that's what it looks like. If you do a google search for finger joints most of the examples will show that joint. Old masters and some of the new ones too call them finger joints. The proper name for the joint Charley mentioned where ends of lumber are joined is a splice joint as that is what it does. The tapered finger's only use is joining lumber together, hence a splice. So when you see the term finger joint don't automatically assume it's not a box joint. I still refer to it as a finger joint because when I lace my fingers together it looks like that joint.

Until all concerned get together and change it, like they did with Pluto's status as a planet to a planetoid, then both terms will get used for the same thing.


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## sreilly (May 22, 2018)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> Until all concerned get together and change it, like they did with Pluto's status as a planet to a planetoid, then both terms will get used for the same thing.


Oh you just had to bring Pluto into it didn't you?  Stubborn me still calls it a planet. But that's a whole nother chat......

As seen in another post not long ago, terminology in the English language isn't always so clear.

Thanks again Chuck


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

the pointy ones are the finger joint...

.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Lace your fingers together and tell me what that looks like.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> Lace your fingers together and tell me what that looks like.


a steeple...
bound lodge poles...
finger joints are finger joints and box joints are box joints...

Sawblades | DADO SETS | BOX JOINT CUTTER SET










Router Bits | JOINERY | FINGER JOINT

.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

My point is that many disagree and some of those who disagree are masters who were trained by masters and they are training the next generation of masters. So one shouldn't assume one way or the other.
Finger-Joint Basics | Startwoodworking.com
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finger_joint
Box (finger) Joint Jig
https://www.pinterest.ca/miriambaynes/finger-joints/
http://www.shopnotes.com/files/issues/110/fast-and-easy-finger-joints.pdf
Finger Joints


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

ever buy box jointed molding???
Primed Finger Joint Pine Mouldings from EL and EL Wood Products


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

You didn't look at the links did you? I've heard that joint also called a tapered finger joint, making it different from a standard finger joint, also called a box joint.That's terminology I heard many decades ago. Some day everyone may concede to your point of view but we aren't there yet.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

I'm with Stick on this one. A box joint is squared off, a finger joint is tapered. Period. They have separate and distinct purposes. A finger joint can only create a longer, straight piece. A box joint can make a right angle turn, or in theory a longer piece. But you can't make a box with a finger joint. Let's all be purists about this, OK? I think the confusion comes from naming the box joint's protrusions "fingers." If they were called, say, flugles, there'd be less confusion--don't you think?.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

DesertRatTom said:


> I'm with Stick on this one. A box joint is squared off, a finger joint is tapered. Period. They have separate and distinct purposes. A finger joint can only create a longer, straight piece. A box joint can make a right angle turn, or in theory a longer piece. But you can't make a box with a finger joint. Let's all be purists about this, OK? I think the confusion comes from naming the box joint's protrusions "fingers." If they were called, say, flugles, there'd be less confusion--don't you think?.


You didn't look at my links either, did you?


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Charles, yes I did, but they only perpetuate the confusion. I think the point is that a (tapered) finger joint can't make a 90 degree corner while a box joint can. Small box joints (1/8th for example) don't fit the finger definition, so they are small box joints. For me, that is very clear. Too bad the box joint protrusions are called fingers. But I'm not insisting that anyone else follow this convention, but if you say tapered finger joint, you're covered. if there's no taper, it's a box joint. If it's angled and interlocks and forms a 90 degree angle, it's a dovetail joint. 
*
From the Joint Book: * 
*Box Joint:* Another name for a finger lap joint with straight, interlocking fingers.
Finger lap joints also go by the name of Box joint and share the same definition.

The book doesn't include a tapered finger joint, but to make it clear, here is a pix of a tapered finger joint and the router bits that make them. If it's called a tapered finger joint, then it seems a more accurate and descriptive definition to me. I've spent most of my adult life writing and try to say what I mean with accuracy, so this conflating finger and tapered fingers and box joints just doesn't give clarity for me. No offense meant to anyone with differing points of view.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

My point was and still is that many people, including most of the group I consider master woodworkers, still refer to the box joint as first being a finger joint. When someone says finger joint it's not a given that they are talking about splicing lumber. If you paid attention to the sources in the links I gave you saw some very respectable sources referring to what you call a box joint as a finger joint, the reason being that the individual projections are called fingers and that when joined together they look like interlaced fingers, no matter what size they are. It's how I refer to them because that's how I learned to refer to them a very long time ago. You guys can argue all you want to but unless you know a way to change history then the traditional way to refer to that joint is as a finger joint.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

un-huh...


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## Larry42 (Aug 11, 2014)

It's unfortunate that box joints have become called finger joints. It confuses the issue. Finger joints are made with long, skinny, pointy elements and are used to join flat parts to make them longer. At least in the commercial world that's what "finger joint" means. They are almost always done on high speed automated lines. I bet if you put "finger joint" into YouTube you can watch one of those line run. And yes you can make them with a shaper or even a router but gluing them up is a PIA.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> My point was and still is that many people, including most of the group I consider master woodworkers, still refer to the box joint as first being a finger joint. When someone says finger joint it's not a given that they are talking about splicing lumber. If you paid attention to the sources in the links I gave you saw some very respectable sources referring to what you call a box joint as a finger joint, the reason being that the individual projections are called fingers and that when joined together they look like interlaced fingers, no matter what size they are. It's how I refer to them because that's how I learned to refer to them a very long time ago. You guys can argue all you want to but unless you know a way to change history then the traditional way to refer to that joint is as a finger joint.


calling it what it isn't till it's accepted doesn't make it a correct descriptive...
an element of a box joint is called a finger..
but the final product is a box joint...
it is not a finger joint...
so call it what its, a box joint...
let's call the receiver for the ''finger'' a pocket... so now we have a pocket joint???


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Have you noticed that posts about tapered finger joints require a picture and a long string of posts when they ask about a finger joint when they mean box joint? So first thing, we have to have either a picture or drawing or explanation to know whether they're talking about a box, or a finger joint? That is evidence that misuse of the terms leads to confusion, and long argumentative strings like this one.

The only way to correct this is a lifelong campaign of reaching every tool maker, every fixit guy who is making videos, responding to every article that misuses the terms and correcting them. And then, some guy in a garage in Idaho will misuse the term and the process starts again. So we'll probably keep arguing one side vs the other around here, and we'll probably repeat this string endlessly to some of our frustration, and for others, to their satisfaction. Clarity or ambiguity.. Which is better?


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

Been here, done that, got over it.....

good news, I may be right after all!!!

Bad news, I could be wrong?????

Good news, I really don't care!!


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

@CharleyL

I'm tellin' ya Charlie, everytime I see those boxes, I just want to go down to the shop and get started on a set. Affordable, practicable and
just damn fine lookin'!!!!!


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## woodknots (Mar 7, 2012)

Well, I guess I'll enter the discussion.

A "box joint" is typically used to join two boards at a corner. The protrusions are commonly known as "fingers".
A "tapered finger joint" is used to elongate a board "end to end".

From FineWoodworking, September 2005:

_"The box joint, *sometimes called a finger joint*, interlocks two boards at a corner. It is similar to a dovetail (with the grain going in the same direction), however, instead of angled tails and pins, box-joint *fingers* are straight._

From "The Complete Illustrated Guide to Joinery", by Gary Rogowski:

On page 128, he refers to a box joint as "a finger joint" and further, on page 266 he refers to the "other" joint as a "tapered finger splice joint"

Having said that, typically when a member asks a question or makes a comment regarding a "case" or joining the corners of two boards, they are generally referring to a "box joint" or "finger joint". Rarely does anyone ask about, or comment on, elongating two boards, or splicing them.

The OP may have titled his thread as "finger joint" but in the text in post 1, he did refer to making a "hanging tool cabinet" and further stated that he had the "IBox jig".

So his intentions were clear and this discussion is for naught as he was clear in his description of his project and "wasn't wrong in his title".

When you make a dovetail joint, you refer to the elements as "tails" and "pins".
So, when you make a box joint, how do you refer to the elements???? As boxes?? Nope, as fingers.

Some of you may not agree but it is what it is - experts have long called the "box joint" a "finger joint" - and I do consider Gary Rogowski an expert.


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

It all depends on which finger and which joint on the finger you are talking about. Every night when I go to bed i remember how thankful I am I have all my fingers and finger joints after all these years of working with power tools.
Herb


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

What do Boxes, fingers and cannabis all have in common................JOINTS.
Herb


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## CharleyL (Feb 28, 2009)

Sorry guys......I didn't mean to create this all this ruckus. How about we call what I made "Square Finger Joints" versus the other "Taper Finger Joints" for joining boards end to end "board stretcher style", but we still can't fix this mess here. It's a global woodworking problem that I believe was created by the woodworking tool sales people, some of who sell woodworking tools, but don't know the first thing about them or the differences between them. I think it's now way beyond fixing. That's why I always ask the question as to which one the poster is referring to.

Charley


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Don't worry Charley, we like to thrash about on issues like this. We've had our say and are satisfied, for now at least.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Larry42 said:


> It's unfortunate that box joints have become called finger joints. It confuses the issue. Finger joints are made with long, skinny, pointy elements and are used to join flat parts to make them longer. At least in the commercial world that's what "finger joint" means. They are almost always done on high speed automated lines. I bet if you put "finger joint" into YouTube you can watch one of those line run. And yes you can make them with a shaper or even a router but gluing them up is a PIA.


You missed a lot of the conversation Larry. They were always called finger joints until only recently when, as Charley pointed out, the manufacturers started referring to them as something else. The ones with tapered fingers were called just that or were called splice joints. If you find old literature, that will be the nomenclature you find. When I read articles in Fine Woodworking almost all of their contributors refer to a box joint as a finger joint. Most of those guys went through a training period by old masters. One of the very first contributors to FWW was Tage Frid (pronounced Tay) who was a Danish born and educated master. I'm not sure if FWW would have made it without him. He was trained the old fashioned (European) way and started as an apprentice in a traditional European wood shop. That's what he called the joint in his book on how to make wood joints. It's an excellent book by the way, one of the best woodworking books I've ever read. So that was how he was taught by an even older master than himself. And so on, and so on, and so on.

Maybe one day the terminology will change. Ain't was't in the dictionary when I was young but it is now. Maybe one day no one will refer to it as a finger joint anymore but for now you can still find as many or more references to it being a finger joint and those references are from professional sources. In the mean time the one thing that should happen is for everyone to quit correcting people who call it the other term. It IS a finger joint. It also IS a box joint. Both are correct.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> You missed a lot of the conversation Larry. They were always called finger joints until only recently when, as Charley pointed out, the manufacturers started referring to them as something else. The ones with tapered fingers were called just that or were called splice joints. If you find old literature, that will be the nomenclature you find. When I read articles in Fine Woodworking almost all of their contributors refer to a box joint as a finger joint. Most of those guys went through a training period by old masters. One of the very first contributors to FWW was Tage Frid (pronounced Tay) who was a Danish born and educated master. I'm not sure if FWW would have made it without him. He was trained the old fashioned (European) way and started as an apprentice in a traditional European wood shop. That's what he called the joint in his book on how to make wood joints. It's an excellent book by the way, one of the best woodworking books I've ever read. So that was how he was taught by an even older master than himself. And so on, and so on, and so on.
> 
> Maybe one day the terminology will change. Ain't was't in the dictionary when I was young but it is now. Maybe one day no one will refer to it as a finger joint anymore but for now you can still find as many or more references to it being a finger joint and those references are from professional sources. In the mean time the one thing that should happen is for everyone to quit correcting people who call it the other term. It IS a finger joint. It also IS a box joint. Both are correct.


and this all boiled down says to eat dung because 500 bazillion flies can't possibly be wrong...


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Doncha love a food fight, Larry and Moe? I was having some trouble making a wanglewhoozer joint the other day, because the tapered box from the Orange place was trapezoidal rather than curvalinear. So my fence had to be tapered instead.


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