# Do we really need power tools?



## 163481 (Jul 8, 2015)

I've been watching some pretty interesting stuff on YouTube lately and it's got me wondering about the real necessity of power tools. Yes, I know they make woodworking easier but are they faster?

I watched British master craftsman Paul Sellers bang out a mortise in less time than it would take me to set up my router table to do one. Assuming there are eight mortises needed for the legs of a table to attach the aprons, I'd have to change the setup once and I wonder if I could finish all eight faster than Sellers could.

Similar thing with a groove in a drawer side. I watched Roy Underhill dado a drawer side with a plow plane in a couple minutes and I wondered if I could do it any faster with a router table or a stacked dado cutter, assuming there would some setup time required.

I suppose in a production environment the power tools would have a distinct advantage but what about for the hobbyist?

Your thoughts?


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## furboo (Oct 12, 2015)

Chuck, no offense, but you're comparing yourself with some of the best there is that use hand tools. It'd be interesting to compare them to some of the best there is that using a router, say Bill Hylton.

I also think it depends what you're making. Hand-cut joints look great with some furniture, but unless you're really good, probably not for contemporary furniture.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

sfchuck said:


> I've been watching some pretty interesting stuff on YouTube lately and it's got me wondering about the real necessity of power tools. Yes, I know they make woodworking easier but are they faster?
> 
> I watched British master craftsman Paul Sellers bang out a mortise in less time than it would take me to set up my router table to do one. Assuming there are eight mortises needed for the legs of a table to attach the aprons, I'd have to change the setup once and I wonder if I could finish all eight faster than Sellers could.
> 
> ...


they most definitely have their place...
joist and deck an entire floor w/o power tools and see what you think...
it was 4 years before the 1st power tool came to the job.. circular saw and building houses...
next came an electric drill.... then we all went to heaven when the TS made it's debut..
up till the end I liked joinery by hand, practice made for quality and speed but but ripping big stuff into smaller stuff is out of the question w/o power tools...


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## gjackson52 (Jul 4, 2015)

I guess my take on it as a hobbyist is that for me, my time is not money. I do woodworking because I enjoy the process. So if that means hand tools, cool. Or if it means power tools that is also cool by me. So I guess what I am saying is that a hobbyist should use what gives them the most pleasure...power or hand.


Gary


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## kp91 (Sep 10, 2004)

d) all of the above. 

Is a treadle scroll saw a power tool? or do I have to go back to a coping saw? 

When we teach the Girl Scout woodworking class, they get a taste of hand and power tool working. I guarantee that less than 10% of them would ever come back to the hobby if it was all hand tool work. The work, patience, and time involved to get the sense of accomplishment of completing something is more than their limited attention spans can handle. The eggbeater drills and the brace and bit, handsaw, coping saw, and manual screwdriver don't hold the fascination the cordless drill driver and scroll saw do. When they get a taste of power tool use, they can see a result faster, and they want to do more.


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## kp91 (Sep 10, 2004)

PS- you can go broke on hand tools just as fast as you can buying power tools! :wink:


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## Marco (Feb 21, 2009)

The old Hand held drill... a hand saw were both major dislikes for me when I was young when you might have had to use one. Some people still used the drills in the 60's. If there were no power tools, I would not have woodworking as a hobby.


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## Shop guy (Nov 22, 2012)

I was 9 years old when electricity came to the farm thanks to the REA. I well remember the hand tool way of doing things. For some years after we got power we still did most all our building with hand tools because only the house really had electricity. If I still had to do things the old way you would have to count me out of woodworking.


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

Depends. Partly on the individual, partly on what he is doing.

Some people use nothing but hand tools, out of choice. 
Some use hand tools because that is what they have, and/or can't afford power tools.
Some are simply in locations without power available.
Some use just power tools, out of choice.
I think most use both. And a hammer is not a power tool, except in the sense it takes human power to use one.

I learned with hand tools, and started shop class in the fourth grade. That was in a galaxy far away, and long ago. Didn't start using power tools until the 9th grade, and that was only a combination belt/disc sander. Managed to lose the fingerprints on that thing, but no blood. Tenth grade we were taught to use all the power tools. Anymore, regardless of my preference, I am pretty much restricted to using just power tools, with the quick odd job with a hammer, coping saw, etc., tossed in My joints are quite diligent in telling me that they are NOT happy with much hand tool use, and my back chimes in when I stand in one place for more than about a minute. The however is, I should be able to do chisel and carving mallet work on four Tikis, with no major issues, because I'll be sitting down, the carving will be no major issue, and I can just lean back and take a break at any time. It won't all be hand work tho, I'll start out the normal way, with a chainsaw. Hehehe 
:grin:


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

'Woodworking' is a big envelope. Woodframe buildings used to be framed exclusively with dimension lumber; shiplap for subflooring and sheathing. Who does that anymore? 
Kitchen cabinets also from dimension lumber; again who does _that_ anymore? 
Cabinetry is all precision made now, using highly efficient and extremely accurate production equipment. Going back to making it with handtools exclusively would increase the cost exponentially, unless you wanted to work for early 20th century wages.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

sfchuck said:


> I've been watching some pretty interesting stuff on YouTube lately and it's got me wondering about the real necessity of power tools. Yes, I know they make woodworking easier but are they faster?
> 
> I watched British master craftsman Paul Sellers bang out a mortise in less time than it would take me to set up my router table to do one. Assuming there are eight mortises needed for the legs of a table to attach the aprons, I'd have to change the setup once and I wonder if I could finish all eight faster than Sellers could.
> 
> ...


Sometimes if you only do one of something a hand tool is faster but power tools are made for production work and for the repeatability of the quality of the work.


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## Dimitri M (Oct 4, 2011)

Chuck, I read your comparison observations and please let me philosophize a bit :

Once we are born, there is only one thing really necessary: to die at some moment. All other things to do are optional. So, if you want to give it a try without power tools, lock away for 365 days your power tool (e.g. disc saw) and then tell me how many things you made of mdf etc. Also, you are comparing your singing to the Pavarotti of carpentry. What do you want to hear? How good he is or how far behind him you are? I heard many sculptors say that Michaelangelo, after his famous "Pieta" put the tombstone on sculpture, because no human can ever make better sculpture. BUT, the joy of creating is not about comparing our work to what can be achieved, but about appreciating what emotions our wooden "creature" (a product of creation) brings out. Thus, if you go back to my posts, look at the cutting boards: is there any comparison between my single board "things" and Herb's puzzling masterpieces?
http://www.routerforums.com/attachm...boards-gone-christmas-presents-d20_5382rf.jpg
http://www.routerforums.com/attachm...boards-gone-christmas-presents-d20_5392rf.jpg

http://www.routerforums.com/show-n-tell/48810-crazy-cutting-boards-chess-board.html

No way, yet when I see my own boards on a table I am very happy (And to be sincere, I am VERY happy to cut cheese with my knife on a simple board, while I think it is barbaric sacrilege to do this on a masterpiece by Herb. (And a side question: How much saw dust does an intricate job produce vs the very simple bandsaw cut of the single-piece cutting board?). Still there is no comparison : Herb's boards are superb to hang on the wall (and keep hearing all others ask how it's done) while mine are at home when they are near the sink.

Obviously, what we do in carpentry (as in many other activities) is a choreography, a "dance" of thoughts and moves that results in what we can make. Our education, experience, needs, wishes, expertise, weaknesses, stubbornness and dares will make us produce whatever it is. It is the amateur's virtue to "lick" a piece of wood indefinitely, until he is satisfied, while the pro has to get on with it finish it faster, easier, perfect, and give it to the customer to take the money and rush away to cover expenses.

So, after much thinking and dreadful trials at dovetailing, I stopped the idea. Through my needs, strengths and weaknesses I resolved to the use of dowel joints, found them 100% accurate easily, and they haven't failed me up to now. I stopped envying others quite a long time ago, and I am happy at what I can achieve. And many times it is unique from what I see on people's remarks here, e.g.

http://www.routerforums.com/project-plans-how/32153-coat-stand-my-own-design-5.html

Best wishes


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## gmcromp (Jun 1, 2012)

Not everyone can use hand tools due to physical limitations. Power tools open up the hobby to those of us that have.arthritis and other limitations. Use what you feel best, it is a personal choice. If you make it and it looks good who cares what tools you use.


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## 163481 (Jul 8, 2015)

A lively discussion with many different perspectives. Thanks all for chiming in.


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## MikeMa (Jul 27, 2006)

I am a hobby woodworker, and I use both extensively. For stock prep, you will see me using my jointer, planer, and table saw almost exclusively. However, if I am working on a 12" wide board, my jointer is only 6". You will see me grabbing my #62 and #7 hand planes to flatten one of the faces, and then proceed to watch me send that board through the planer. 

For mortise and tenons, I don't have a tenon jig, nor a mortising machine. I have made a few different tenon jigs, but I have never had them perform real well. To cut my tenons, I will establish the shoulders at the table saw , and depending on the size of the tenon cut the shoulders at either the router table or band saw. The router I can get typically get the tenon sized to what I need. The band saw they need to be slightly over sized. I will use my rabbet block plane to get that fit perfected. After going through this process a few times, it is actually a pretty quick process to get the tenons fit to the mortises. For the mortises, I will machine them out with either the drill press or router table, and both I will clean up with chisels.

This is why I enjoy woodworking. So many different ways to accomplish tasks.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

This is about as primitive as woodworking gets. Happens every day for this guy.


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## 163481 (Jul 8, 2015)

MikeMa said:


> For the mortises, I will machine them out with either the drill press or router table, and both I will clean up with chisels.


Has anyone ever tried boring contiguous holes with an upcut router bit in the drill press and then gently routing out the remainder of the waste with the bit still in the drill press?

For full disclosure, the spindle bearing of my drill press is the same part number as the arbor bearing of my table saw.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

sfchuck said:


> Has anyone ever tried boring contiguous holes with an upcut router bit in the drill press and then gently routing out the remainder of the waste with the bit still in the drill press?
> 
> For full disclosure, the spindle bearing of my drill press is the same part number as the arbor bearing of my table saw.


not w/ a router bit...
a fostner bit works as good or better than anything out there...


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## MikeMa (Jul 27, 2006)

sfchuck said:


> Has anyone ever tried boring contiguous holes with an upcut router bit in the drill press and then gently routing out the remainder of the waste with the bit still in the drill press?
> 
> For full disclosure, the spindle bearing of my drill press is the same part number as the arbor bearing of my table saw.


If I use the router table, I will cut the full length and depth of the mortise (multiple passes as needed). I will typically square up the corners with chisels. (Yes, I realize this may be a touch OCD, but I prefer my mortises to have squared corners)


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## kp91 (Sep 10, 2004)

I've been drawn to 'sailor's art' for a long time. The items that these guys made in their months at sea with little raw materials and limited tools have always impressed me. I especially liked the cribbage boards, because of my fondness for the traditional game of seafarers. The example picture below is an example of these simple, but impressive projects. I have seen some at Maritime Museums with drawers for the pegs, folding boards, and other impressive features, all worked by hands on long voyages.

Having made a few cribbage boards in my time, I understand now why all of the handmade ones have as few peg holes as possible. Drilling 250 holes with a drill press is work enough, I can't imagine the patience to drill them all by hand!

I can't find a credit (or age) for the one below, but it is beautiful.


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