# One Of The Differences Between The EXpert And The Beginner...



## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

Was thinking about one of what I suspect might be a distinct difference between those guys like, Mike, Harry, James, Otis, to name only a very few of the many talented members of this forum that really know their way around the woodworking shop, and members like myself that though may not be really be new to the craft but are sill in the learning stage might go something like this. The experienced person needs to execute a certain rather complicated procedure, he or she has done it many times and knows how to to the procedure. After the process is completely to perfection the experience woodworker looks at the finished issue and says "Ah yes, just right" and goes on with his project. 

The woodworking like myself who is still learning and sees a need for the same procedure alluded to above but has never done it before but gives it a try and it goes well, he or she says "Oh yes!, I like that" The difference is between the feelings, the expert has the feeling of conficence, the beginner has the feeling of elation that goes only with that of having learning something new and the realization that he or she has gained some new and exciting knowledge. That feeling only exists during the learning stage and is so much part of the joy of learning about the craft and will, hopefully be replaced in time with the confidence that the experts experience as they go about making all that sawdust. In my case, I'm still in that learning group and am loving it. 

If you have taken time to read this, thanks for putting up with my attempt to share some the things that find myself thinking about these days.

Jerry


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

I read it. And, like you said, your thoughts. I can't really agree with much of it. 

I am not experienced in a lot of things - but still have confidence I can do them. 
I have experience in a lot of things - but still lack confidence I will do them right.
And a lot of times with things that I have both experience and confidence in, I finish, look at the results, and say, "Well, close enough for government work", and move on. And I learn new stuff all the time.

You used 'experienced' and 'expert' interchangeably, they're not the same.

I do woodworking for a myrid of reasons. Among them, it's fun, it's relaxing, it's fun, and sometimes just to smell the sawdust.


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## Gaffboat (Mar 11, 2012)

Theo +1


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

JOAT said:


> I read it. And, like you said, your thoughts. I can't really agree with much of it.
> 
> I am not experienced in a lot of things - but still have confidence I can do them.
> I have experience in a lot of things - but still lack confidence I will do them right.
> ...


Theo, sorry that I got my grammer incorrect, but I suspect that you got the jist of what I was alluding to. I know that part of if not most of the enjoyment that I get from woodworking is the challenge of attemping something that I have not done before and did not turn out right the first time, but after some thought and a few more attempts, finally getting it done to my satisfaction is what I am talking about . I feel pretty sure that this description of what I am talking about is not unique to me huh.....

Jerry


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Jerry, let me tell you I get the exact same feeling of elation that you do when a project turns out right, I think everyone does. I make mistakes and slap my forehead just like you do. I am an intermediate skill level woodworker and there are many things I have not tried yet. Woodworking is a daily challenge for everyone; I know I learn new things every time I go into the shop or come on the forums. I look at projects by others and think: Wow, I wish I had their talent. We are all our own worst critics.


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

Mike said:


> Jerry, let me tell you I get the exact same feeling of elation that you do when a project turns out right, I think everyone does. I make mistakes and slap my forehead just like you do. I am an intermediate skill level woodworker and there are many things I have not tried yet. Woodworking is a daily challenge for everyone; I know I learn new things every time I go into the shop or come on the forums. I look at projects by others and think: Wow, I wish I had their talent. We are all our own worst critics.


Mike, 

I hear what you are saying, but in my case anyway, I'm of the opinion that you have forgotten more about woodworking than I will ever know, but the fact is, I do doubt if you get anymore enjoyment from you woodworking than I do, so as you are saying, we all have fun with our shop time, regardless of the level of expertise, and thet's the good part of all of this back and forth in my humble opinion.

Jerry


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

This is why I encourage members to find other woodworkers in their area. We always have a great time when we get together. I will let you in on a secret: The bucket in this photo is really empty. From left to right are Neil,(Oldnewbie) BrianS and AxlMyk.


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Mike said:


> The bucket in this photo is really empty.


Is that Mike's bucket list?

On the thread- Bahahaha! (I can't compose myself.) 

Been exposed to allot. Both relieved and ecstatic when things come together and workout, especially a big project. You would think me being a Master Carpenter would be like mechanic and his car, but I love wood and woodworking. It keep's me sane. 

Wait, I'm still a little crazy? Maybe it helps. Well it makes me feel good, relax and have fun. And I still learn about more each day.


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## Stan Richardson (May 23, 2013)

Mike,
the hand full of woodworkers that I have met in my area have been very snotty, wouldn't help you across the street. the 4 that I did meet seems to me have no interest in meeting other woodworkers. The woodworking club in my area meets on Tuesdays at 10:00am (really really??) most people work Mon thru Fri 9-5? It's one hot mess in south Florida, I have begged on Craigslist to meet new woodworkers, not one response. Oh well back to YouTube to keep teaching myself how to be a woodworker lol..oh made these key chains tonight, how you guys cut with flat skip tooth blades is unreal, I just cant master it. gotta go back to the spirals


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Stan, one of our new members mentioned that he started a club in Florida, scan the introductions for it. It could be in your area.


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

Stan Richardson said:


> Mike,
> the hand full of woodworkers that I have met in my area have been very snotty, wouldn't help you across the street. the 4 that I did meet seems to me have no interest in meeting other woodworkers. The woodworking club in my area meets on Tuesdays at 10:00am (really really??) most people work Mon thru Fri 9-5? It's one hot mess in south Florida, I have begged on Craigslist to meet new woodworkers, not one response. Oh well back to YouTube to keep teaching myself how to be a woodworker lol..oh made these key chains tonight, how you guys cut with flat skip tooth blades is unreal, I just cant master it. gotta go back to the spirals


I haven't met any woodworkers isn my area. On the other hand, haven't gone looking for any either - I am friendly to people, but at the same time private, so it doesn't bother me. Did have a very nice talk with the young guy that bought my lathe, he's in college, sent him a couple of links later. I'm completely good with sharing knowlege, that's the only way it gets passed along. Told him how I did some of the things I do, and showed him a few. Not sure how much he got, I do tend to do thngs a bit different at times. He said he'll probably be back to buy at least one cane. Yay.

There is at least one woodworking club in my area, it's affiliated with the NC woodworking, don't recall the name just now, it's been a good long while since I've been on there - aimed at NC woodworkers. Never met any, but seem very friendly and helpful. They meet in the evenings, and are about 20 miles from here. I'm not a joiner any more, and don't do schedules well anymore. I meet doctor's appointments because they're necessary; but to have to be somewhere at X o'clock, on a certain day, every week, that's just more than I care to deal with. Their meetings are in the evenings, or is it on Sat mornings?, don't know, but do know it is not during a 'normal' work day. Meeting's in the AM, bah, that means it's retirees only, and they probably wouldn't welcome anyone else anyway.

Just be cautious on youtube, they've got some really good information on there, and they've got some complete idiots posting on there.


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## Willway (Aug 16, 2012)

I have found over the years that every job you do you pick up something new, no matter how many times you have done that same thing before. It may not be much, just one little thing you had not noticed before. It's called learning, and each little thing you pick up makes you better at what you do. And when the learning stops, its time to fire the shots, sound the trumpet, and fold your flag.........


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## paduke (Mar 28, 2010)

Been at it since I was 12. Dad told me to install the baseboard in a closet. It was torture trying to nail backhanded. My feelings on completion? relief it was done Dad's? he wondered how I managed so many hammer marks on the baseboard. My learning curve has remained the same. Completed projects after several disastrous attempts. I think I have managed to make every mistake you can. Upon joining the forum I started making a router table. I am now using my fourth prototype. Maybe I will soon find the elation of a completed one, its just I find something I want different on the next one. 
However I will agree with Jerry and say the difference between the beginner and expert is confidence. Confidence comes with experience. Confidence to me is an attitude not a feeling


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## Daikusan (Apr 12, 2013)

Hey, if you make a mistake save the wood for a different project, scraps always come in handy... now to figure out what to do with that big pile of scraps.

The bucket above… just don’t kick it.


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

Willway said:


> I have found over the years that every job you do you pick up something new, no matter how many times you have done that same thing before. It may not be much, just one little thing you had not noticed before. It's called learning, and each little thing you pick up makes you better at what you do. And when the learning stops, its time to fire the shots, sound the trumpet, and fold your flag.........


Actually what Dick is saying, and I hadn't thought of it until now, explains what happened to me years ago with my shooting experience. I began investigating what made a rifle shoot accurated when I was 15 years old and continued my quest for almost 30 years and ended up with a rifle that was, in my opinion about as perfect as it could be in regard to accuracy, I also learned not to shoot it more than when shooting it in competition because there are only a limited number of rounds that go through the barrel before the barrel loses that gilt edge. When I reached that level of understanding all of my interest in shooting came to an end. I sold the gun and never did anymore shooting the goal had finally been meant and it was time to move on. I doubt if this will ever happen with woodworking for two reasons, first I won't live long enough and second the vast array of issues to be learned is amost infinite and that is what makes woodworking so very interesting. By the way, I was not referring to hunting rifles that are mass produced and are not capable of ever shooting at the level of accuracy that I am referring to. Factory guns just aren't built for real accuracy, and are considered to be junk when it comes to real shooting, and that includes what the military calls their sniper rifles. This not mean that sniper rifles and good hunting rifles are not made to do what they are designed for, far from it, their requirements do not include the level of accuracy that I was interested in and for that matter, such a rifle that I am referring to good for nothing except competitive shooting, such a rifle is just a sophisticated paper puch punch tools that has no practical value as does a good hunting rifle, at least this was the conclusion that I came to when I gave up the sport, but the journey along the way was very interesting to me.

Jerry

.


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

Jerry Bowen said:


> Factory guns just aren't built for real accuracy, and are considered to be junk when it comes to real shooting, and that includes what the military calls their sniper rifles.


Now Jerry, you know that is a blanket statement, and as such, not entirely true. It depends on the factory, and the rifle. Apparently you have not paid attention to the more recent dedicated sniper rifles; when a sniper can take a man out at a mile or more, intentionally, I would call that accuracy any day.
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/international/sniper_kills_qaeda_from_mi_away_sTm0xFUmJNal3HgWlmEgRL


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

JOAT said:


> Now Jerry, you know that is a blanket statement, and as such, not entirely true. It depends on the factory, and the rifle. Apparently you have not paid attention to the more recent dedicated sniper rifles; when a sniper can take a man out at a mile or more, intentionally, I would call that accuracy any day.
> British sniper nails two Taliban from world record 8,120 feet - NYPOST.com


Theo, if you believe that stuff about taking an enemy out a a mile away on a even fairly consistant basis, well, lets talk about you some other fairy tales, the BS you read about these sniper rifles is just that BS, and only for the very gullible to think about. Don't mean to insult you but only to stand up for for what I know about shooting in the real world. Even a rifle that is as accurate as the ones that I like to talk about that will keep it's shots into a half a mnute of angle at 200 yards under the best possible shooting conditions by the best shooters in the world, the error becomes nine inches at one mile and the sniper rifles are only capable of half that accuracy which is 18" which is under the best possible conditions which are not available in the field. Yes, from time to time a shot at oa mile will happen but not predictably and when it happens it is just a fluke and you can take that to the bank.

The best sniper rifle is nothing but well tuned hunting rifle, not a competitive benchrest rifle.

Jerry


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Jerry-

By saying what I used to do is a fanstasy... That is sort of insulting, isn't it? Well, I have a twisted sense of humor anyways. Way back when, it wasn't reported nor made public. I can personally say that that is a conservatively true statement and not fantasy.

I can "now" say that 20 years ago I was part of a "team." On down time, I was asked to the test the predecessor to the Tac-50 and later the Tac-50. That and the M107 were a pain to carry. Others on the team would help carry ammo because we were all on foot. I had different weapons issued depending on where we went or what we did... but what I carried most of the time was an early Dragunov SVD, because where we operated, that ammo was more plentiful. I can say that none of my issued weapons were off the rack issue nor was the ammo "normal". Our armorers went through our special weapons. The ammo for the special weapons were "matched." We all had a vested interest.

I figured for cold barreled shots- 800 meters for the M21, 850 meters for the M24, 800 meters to 1km for the M110, 1 km to 1.4 km for the Dragonov, 1.8 km to 2.0 km for the Tac-50, 1.8 km to 2.5 km for the M107...

But even later with pistol competitions on what was supposed to be "unmodified" pistols, we would go through a whole arms room mixing and matching parts until we got a just-right good fit and a smooth action.

Now with progress, advancements <> more people, more often can with "almost" off-the-racks of certain weapons. Some of the new ammo is amazing. A British soldier has an official confirmed kill at 2.43 kilometers (8120 ft. or 1.54 miles) which was 2 hits from consecutive shots with a Lapua .338 caliber L115A3 rifle.

But 20 years ago... No one was reporting how far it was... or not public at all. I was still having to sign security debriefs years after I was out... But not because of the "range" of a rifle.


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

*For Jerry....*

http://www.routerforums.com/show-n-tell/41956-tall-oak-units-fitted.html#post339871

Re-posted as you may not have seen my post.


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

MAFoElffen said:


> Jerry-
> 
> By saying what I used to do is a fanstasy... That is sort of insulting, isn't it? Well, I have a twisted sense of humor anyways. Way back when, it wasn't reported nor made public. I can personally say that that is a conservatively true statement and not fantasy.
> 
> ...


a

Mike, it sounds like you have had some great military experience with good equipment but not of what you are talking about even come close to what is involved in truly accurate benchrest equipment, few shooters have ever even considered what goes into this sport. If I am wrong about your understanding of such things, I reserve the right to be corrected. I'm talking about rifles that are capable of shooting five shot groups at two hundred yards that AVERAGE well under a quarter of an minute of angle, .500" and can attain that level of accuracy all day long. Now it is often said that finding shooters that can shoot as well as these rifles is rather difficult, but the rifles and ammunition are that capable, if anybody finds this hard to belief they need to investigage the NBRSA. the national benchrest shooters association or the IBS, the International benchrest association. Five shot groups that measure under a tenth of an inch are quite common but not the norm, the world record for a single group of five shots at 100 yards is .009" that nine thousandths of an inch from center to center to the shots furthest apart in the group. I do not believe that any military rifle is capable of this level of accuracy, due to the physical issues that go into making rifles and matching ammunition that will meet the specs required. Hope you find yourself courious enough to do some reseach on the matter, But back to woodoworking, it's great isn't it.

Jerry, the nip picker


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

Jerry Bowen said:


> Don't mean to insult you but only to stand up for for what I know about shooting in the real world.


Oh, you didn't insult me, no worries about that, but we definitely live in different worlds, because I consider snipers as "shooting in the real world" - well, A real world anyway, different from this one, that's for sure. But I can't accept benchrest shooting as "shooting in the real world", rather it's a expensive hobby; fun, to be sure, but still just a hobby. And that British sniper didn't just make a "fluke" shot, he "made" his shots. Good man.

This should be an interesting read for you. http://www.gunsandammo.com/2011/09/27/longest-sniper-shots-in-history/

And I think this one is even more interesting - with iron sights yet. http://www.levergun.com/articles/bdixon.htm


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

jw2170 said:


> http://www.routerforums.com/show-n-tell/41956-tall-oak-units-fitted.html#post339871
> 
> Re-posted as you may not have seen my post.


James- I think you meant to link to your post at #2 in that thread.

Exactly James! That's exactly how I feel. Especially as it relates to Jerry. I keep trying to convince him that he under-rates himself. I hold him in high regard. 

Jerry- What is a nip picker? LOL


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

JOAT said:


> Oh, you didn't insult me, no worries about that, but we definitely live in different worlds, because I consider snipers as "shooting in the real world" - well, A real world anyway, different from this one, that's for sure. But I can't accept benchrest shooting as "shooting in the real world", rather it's a expensive hobby; fun, to be sure, but still just a hobby. And that British sniper didn't just make a "fluke" shot, he "made" his shots. Good man.
> 
> This should be an interesting read for you. 8 Longest Sniper Shots in History -- Guns & Ammo
> 
> And I think this one is even more interesting - with iron sights yet. http://www.levergun.com/articles/bdixon.htm


I just got throught writing a very long reply in which I agreed with a lot of what you are saying and a lot of what I wrote was a rebuff about the sniper rifle, then all of my typing just went away as it so often does with my computer. Guess I wasn't supposed to get into the nitty gritty of what makes a rifle really accurate. We both have a common interest in woodworking and that is what this forum is about.

I'm not going to bother re-typing it in that winning an argument is not what is important here. As you say, we live in two diferent worlds when it comes to shooting and after all this is a woodworking forum and we do have a common interest in that subject so I will leave the shooting issue alone as our discussion about the matter will only lead to nott.

jerry


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Jerry Bowen said:


> Mike, it sounds like you have had some great military experience with good equipment but not of what you are talking about even come close to what is involved in truly accurate benchrest equipment


Jerry, I know you were enthusiastic about competing... 

*** Could you explain your wording up there? (quoted) I don't know whether you were trying to insult me and if I should feel hurt or not.

A one MOA group at 200 yards is a whole bunch out at 1000 yards... and bigger at 2000 yards. Benchrest... all supported in a benchrest, sighting, steady trigger pull... That's it? I'm sure there's got to me more to it... But I'm not interested in that. Personally, I don't think that would be my cup of tea... 

But that is apples to oranges to what you lashed out with. And that's not what I posted to and felt hurt by... You said that snipers and sniper rifles shooting out a mile were a myth, a "fairy tale"... and more. Even comparing sniper rifles to hunting rifles... That you just couldn't believe... That any of that could possible be true. Yes, I felt feelings. I had to post.

Now you say that benchrest shooting at 200 yards is more "technical" than a cold shot at 1500 yds? You know what D.O.P.E. is right? A lot of things just don't factor in with a 200 yard shot, that does in a longer shot. I don't know... Was that another insult to say one is better than another? I don't get it. To me it's just different.

I don't know. Seems to me 1/2 to 1 MOA at a moving "target" a mile out... 1/4 to 1/2 MOA group at 2000 yds is not bad. And the groups are "smaller" as you move in closer.

I don't do that now. But I'm still not a sluff. Last 2 times I shot was the Law Enforcement Combat Course at State... The first time I came in second in state, after not picking up a gun in 20 years, not having my glasses, using someone else's gun (at the range) and never having used a speed loader. The next year, I got top gun in state. Burrowed gun, not shot since the competition the year before, still no prescription safety glasses. I just figure it's muscle memory.


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

MAFoElffen said:


> I just figure it's muscle memory.


Sounds right. When I qualified for my CCH it was the first time I had shot anything in years, and first time with a DA/SA pistol. Started each string DA, so each shot was off a bit, but all the SA rounds made a nice fist size hole in the bull.

By the way, I was never a sniper, and never played one on TV. But loved those M14s.


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

JOAT said:


> But loved those M14s.


The M21 was the version I used of the M14. I always liked it. I always thought that it would be great later in civilian life hunting. Besides the way it performed, I always liked how it looked- clean lines.

Springfield M1A was the civilian version of the military M14... which as I remember the M14 version had a forged receiver and the civilian M1A was cast. (I wonder if they went back to forged for the super match?)


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## bowled00 (May 6, 2013)

Jerry Bowen said:


> Mike,
> 
> I hear what you are saying, but in my case anyway, I'm of the opinion that you have forgotten more about woodworking than I will ever know, but the fact is, I do doubt if you get anymore enjoyment from you woodworking than I do, so as you are saying, we all have fun with our shop time, regardless of the level of expertise, and thet's the good part of all of this back and forth in my humble opinion.
> 
> Jerry


Jerry, you're so right. 
I cradled my first dovetail joint like a newborn, not because it was brilliant (far from it) but because it actually fitted together. I'd had hope but no expectation.


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Target shooting and sniper rifles are all well and good but I prefer to do my shooting from the front seat of an attack helicopter. :jester:


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## Gaffboat (Mar 11, 2012)

Sniper rifles? Helicopters? As Frederick II (Frederick the Great) said, "Artillery lends dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl." Us red legs may not have pin-point accuracy but, like in horse shoes, close counts. And, we do it with such style. :haha:


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

Gaffboat said:


> And, we do it with such style. :haha:


Style alright. When I was at Hood a shiny new 2LT was assigned to an artillery company, one of those with the really big shootzenboomers. I guess he was 'in charge' of a gun crew. Well, he apparently wanted to strike a 'heroic' pose and inspire his crew. So, he stood pretty much under the muzzle brake, and told them to fire. Well, the gun sgt, or whatever his title was, tried to talk him out of it. But, you know the type, knows it ALL. So they fired. And the blast put him out cold for about 15 minutes. Needless to say, he didn't do that again. Now that was funny.

The most dangerous thing in the world - a 2LT with a map. :haha:


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

JOAT said:


> Style alright. When I was at Hood a shiny new 2LT was assigned to an artillery company, one of those with the really big shootzenboomers. I guess he was 'in charge' of a gun crew. Well, he apparently wanted to strike a 'heroic' pose and inspire his crew. So, he stood pretty much under the muzzle brake, and told them to fire. Well, the gun sgt, or whatever his title was, tried to talk him out of it. But, you know the type, knows it ALL. So they fired. And the blast put him out cold for about 15 minutes. Needless to say, he didn't do that again. Now that was Jfunny.
> 
> The most dangerous thing in the world - a 2LT with a map. :haha:


J

Theo, isn't that the truth, how funny, do you know if the 2lt lost his hearing or not?

Jerry


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## Gaffboat (Mar 11, 2012)

Jerry Bowen said:


> J
> 
> Theo, isn't that the truth, how funny, do you know if the 2lt lost his hearing or not?
> 
> Jerry


I think all us in the artillery ended up with "artillery ears" otherwise known as hearing loss. For the record, I'm thinking that was probably an infantry 2LT. By the time you finish artillery officer's school you have a true respect for what your weapons can do.

Oh one more thing, just for the former artillerymen members: I SAID WE ALL ENDED UP WITH ARTILLERY EARS. Sorry for the shout but they probably didn't hear me the first time. :haha:


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Originally Posted by Jerry Bowen View Post
Factory guns just aren't built for real accuracy, and are considered to be junk when it comes to real shooting, and that includes what the military calls their sniper rifles.

Jerry you evidently haven't experienced the Remington 700 BDL series firearms..

and for the rest of you guys... it appears y'all ain't trying hard enough..


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

Stick486 said:


> Originally Posted by Jerry Bowen View Post
> Factory guns just aren't built for real accuracy, and are considered to be junk when it comes to real shooting, and that includes what the military calls their sniper rifles.
> 
> Jerry you evidently haven't experienced the Remington 700 BDL series firearms..
> ...


Stick, the only rifles I own are Remington 700 BDLs and some ADLs, the only factory actions used for building benchrest rifles are Remingtons, you will never ever see any other factory action on the line at a real benchrest match and usually these actions are sleeved. But, a 700 out of the box, while a great hunting rifle is no where near being a benchrest rifle. Hope you understand what I'm talking about and if you don't, well the heck with it, I'm coming to the conclusion that if you aren't among that group of shooter, your mind is just closed to the concept of precision shooting and that's it's just a waste of time trying to talk about it. The majority of shooters are absolutely clueless about what I have tried to talk about, I need to stick to subjects that have to do do with woodworking huh.

Jerry

Jerry


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Jerry Bowen said:


> Stick, the only rifles I own are Remington 700 BDLs and some ADLs, the only factory actions used for building benchrest rifles are Remingtons, you will never ever see any other factory action on the line at a real benchrest match and usually these actions are sleeved. But, a 700 out of the box, while a great hunting rifle is no where near being a benchrest rifle. Hope you understand what I'm talking about and if you don't, well the heck with it, I'm coming to the conclusion that if you aren't among that group of shooter, your mind is just closed to the concept of precision shooting and that's it's just a waste of time trying to talk about it. The majority of shooters are absolutely clueless about what I have tried to talk about, I need to stick to subjects that have to do do with woodworking huh.
> 
> Jerry
> 
> Jerry


so what has you so angry and why direct it at me???
just commenting on your "junk" declaration but I believe I'll pass on the new commentary and take your "the heck with it" stance"...
have a nice day...


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Stick486 said:


> Jerry you evidently haven't experienced the Remington 700 BDL series firearms...


Just a note-
The Army M24, which is the Marine M40, which was based on the Remington 700...


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

Stick486 said:


> so what has you so angry and why direct it at me???
> just commenting on your "junk" declaration but I believe I'll pass on the new commentary and takeno your "the heck with it" stance"...
> have a nice day...


Stick, sure did not mean to pull your string, I was just expressing my frustration at the fact that there seems to be nobody responding to the subject at hand that will even inquire about the issues that go into making an accurate rifle suitable for precision shooting and that's fine I guess, what most shooter consider to be adequate accuracy is just that, adequate for them and why should they give a darn worabout anything else. I sure wish I had never brought the subject up on this forum, seems like I am just making enemies and/or stepping on some members feelings, Lord knows, that is not what I want to do, sorry about my getting frustrated about it all. Let's get back to woodworking where I am the one in need of help and opinions of those that know more about the subject than I do and I won't offend anybody that way. Boy, have I learned a lesson.

Jerry

Jerry


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Jerry Bowen said:


> Stick, sure did not mean to pull your string, I was just expressing my frustration at the fact that there seems to be nobody responding to the subject at hand that will even inquire about the issues that go into making an accurate rifle suitable for precision shooting and that's fine I guess, what most shooter consider to be adequate accuracy is just that, adequate for them and why should they give a darn worabout anything else. I sure wish I had never brought the subject up on this forum, seems like I am just making enemies and/or stepping on some members feelings, Lord knows, that is not what I want to do, sorry about my getting frustrated about it all. Let's get back to woodworking where I am the one in need of help and opinions of those that know more about the subject than I do and I won't offend anybody that way. Boy, have I learned a lesson.
> 
> Jerry
> 
> Jerry


since any of the 23 different calibers 700's I have will hit a bottle cap repetitiously in their respective LOS windows I figure that's pretty good or using a Marlin 39/.22 octagon to hit a softball at 1,000 measured feet over and over again ain't too shabby either.... so no need to get all anal-lytic about it or anything else...

want to tighten up??? do some serious frequency/harmonics control/dampening to your firearms(s) starting with the trigger sweep and ending up at the port......

as a side note, I'm here for the woodworking.....


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## Daikusan (Apr 12, 2013)

Jerry Bowen said:


> J
> 
> Theo, isn't that the truth, how funny, do you know if the 2lt lost his hearing or not?
> 
> Jerry


ehh speak up!!!! what did you say????


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

For those not familiar with bench rest shooting, I found these on-line.
I believe the first two are what Jerry was referring to.
This is the last of a series on making one.
Bench Rest Rifle build Part 6 - YouTube 
Bench rest Shooting Introduction.
Bench Rest Shooting Introduction - YouTube
And this is what Wikipedia says.
Benchrest shooting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I really appreciate accurate rifles, but I'd rather just pop soda cans at 100 yards or so, off-hand, with a .22. To do it 'proper' would mean iron sights, but I will admit, I put a small scope on my revamp of a single-shot Marlin .22, the 'Ultimate Squirrel Rifle' I wish I'd had as a kid.

The first picture is the original mod. The second picture was what it evolved to about a year or so ago. The third picture is what it went to almost immediately after the second mod. The stock is in the shop now, waiting the next, and I believe final, mods. The color was supposed to be orange, but somehow red and yellow came out more pink than orange. The final result WILL be orange. All my gun cases are either way too long, or not wide enough for it, so a custom case is in the planning - wood, with lots of routing.


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

Not my scene, I am afraid.

Let's see them follow a kangaroo or wild pig across a field.......

Or run a mile with full pack and 7.62mm SLR, then fire at a target.

But we digress again......LOL


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

Stick486 said:


> since any of the 23 different calibers 700's I have will hit a bottle cap repetitiously in their respective LOS windows I figure that's pretty good or using a Marlin 39/.22 octagon to hit a softball at 1,000 measured feet over and over again ain't too shabby either.... so no need to get all anal-lytic about it or anything else...
> 
> want to tighten up??? do some serious frequency/harmonics control/dampening to your firearms(s) starting with the trigger sweep and ending up at the port......
> 
> as a side note, I'm here for the woodworking.....


Stick, The first benchrest match that I competited in, before I had a benchrest rilfe buils was a tac driving 700BDL , heavy barreled .22/250 with a 24 power scope, it had a Temney trigger and keep all of it's shots inside a half inch at a hundred yard, I came in dead last an I mean really far down on the list when shooting against guy with bencrhrest rifles. Their guns would keep their shot inside of a circle the size of the end of a penci which is much smaller than a bottle cap, They could keep all of their shots inside of a circle the size of a bottle cap at 200 yards too, so we are talking about relative accuracy and yes, I have great respect for the Remington 700's and all of the previous bolt action Remingtons including the 721, 722, 725 and the XP100 which is the action that was used to build my first benchrest gun on. Wow, all 23 calibers, what a great collection of very fine rifles. What scopes do you prefer? Personally I have always been a leaned toward Leupolds, they have always served me well. The high end benchrest scope goes for over a grand now, I don't have one of them and in fact I haven't done any shooting to amount to much for the past 20 years. Again, I am sorry that I got a little sideways with you over our mutual love for good quality rifles, it was my poor choise of words that got me in hot water, do hope that all that is behind us and that we can be friends.

Jerry


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

1st 700 (CD/LH) was in 1963.... As LH models showed and you know where it went from there... 

A smorgasbord of variable power Bausch and Lomb optics w/ high lift mounts.. (Kept the iron sights because the terrain here is so varied)... From 3x9/40's to 4x24/60's (rifle mounted spotter mind set)...


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

Stick486 said:


> 1st 700 (CD/LH) was in 1963.... As LH models showed and you know where it went from there...
> 
> A smorgasbord of variable power Bausch and Lomb optics wk/ high lift mounts.. (Kept the iron sights because the terrain here is so varied)... From 3x9/40's to 4x24/60's (rifle mounted spotter mind set)...


I said that it has been twenty years since I did any serious shooting, don't know what I was thinking, it's been 31 years now. 

Do your rifles have replacement triggers, actually the standard triggers in the 700s are pretty good triggers, but I did like the Canjar and/or Timney triggers. Wish I could find away to get you to just try a 2 oz. trigger like we used in our benchrest guns, Stick, all you do with one of those triggers is just to very very lightly just let your finger gently make contact when you are ready to let the shot go, there is absolutely no detectable pressure required, it takes some getting used to them, but boy, are they different and certainly not practical for anything other than target shooting, there are no safetys on these triggers either. 

Jerry


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Jerry Bowen said:


> I said that it has been twenty years since I did any serious shooting, don't know what I was thinking, it's been 31 years now.
> 
> Do your rifles have replacement triggers, actually the standard triggers in the 700s are pretty good triggers, but I did like the Canjar and/or Timney triggers. Wish I could find away to get you to just try a 2 oz. trigger like we used in our benchrest guns, Stick, all you do with one of those triggers is just to very very lightly just let your finger gently make contact when you are ready to let the shot go, there is absolutely no detectable pressure required, it takes some getting used to them, but boy, are they different and certainly not practical for anything other than target shooting, there are no safetys on these triggers either.
> 
> Jerry


not for me....
all my fire arms are multi taskers.. 
no safety or a hair trigger has no business in the field...


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

Stick486 said:


> not for me....
> all my fire arms are multi taskers..
> no safety or a hair trigger has no business in the field...


I do agree with you about the 2 oz. triggers with no safetys. At a match the bolts for the rifles are only installed when at the bench and ready to shoot and are immediated removed when the command to cease fire is given. By the way, you have seven minutes to fire your five shots for record, there is a record target and just below it there is a duplicate target to be used to check the conditions that exist when shooting the record shots. The barrel is cleaned after every eight to ten shots. When you start to shoot a target for record you always start with a clean barrel and shoot at least two shots at the sighter target do not go to the record target until you have two shots touching which may take two or three shots and the barrel is fouled and ready to shoot. The accuracy will begin to drop off after fifteen or so rounds and must be cleaned again in order to get the rifle to shoot again at the level required to be competive again.

Jerry


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## OPG3 (Jan 9, 2011)

Back on original topic and on original statements... *Otis* _(me I am guessing)_ *isn't really an expert on anything having to do with woodworking* (or shooting great distances with super accuracy). I more consider myself a "visionary" in product development than an "expert" on woodworking. I am quite observant of some things and (according to Joy) not nearly observant of other things. 

I do from time-to-time have need to make multiple copies of a project that I am tasked with fabricating. One line of thought is that an "expert" would build all of the copies in an exactly alike manner. On the obverse, most people would learn as each copy is made and learn a little on each one - eventually producing successive copies in an ever-decreasing span of time. Still others will make mistakes along the way and continue to repeat those mistakes similarly. In this example, I find myself in the middle of the categories.

For experience to create an expert, there is a stubborn need for this experience to be "observant" and with an attitude of attempting to continuously hone skills. This is one of the reasons so many magazines on the subject of woodworking will have projects that are considered "SKILL BUILDERS".

What I am about to share herein may come as an odd surprise to most of you. On Saturday, 20 April 2013: Joy was out-of-town for a Bluegrass Music Festival. It is an annual event and she had very much looked forward to attending it. Joy plays several musical instruments and is quite gifted in music. She had left from home on the day prior and spent the night very near the event at a relative's home. I stayed home and did a variety of "honey-do chores" around the house. To shorten the story, let's just say that I took a bad fall. When my movement ceased, my left foot was under the small of my back. To this day (and probably never to change) I have no idea how my foot got there!

Needless to say, I had seriously injured my left foot, ankle and lower leg. Also, I had a lot of bruising on my ribs. Home alone, it took me about 10- minutes to get back-up on my feet. I've had broken bones in the past and since that ankle has been broken twice in passed years, I felt confident it was now broken a third time. I did not "break the news" to Joy until she returned home on the following day for fear of "ruining her trip and her day that she had so much been looking forward to. She arrived on Sunday morning and drove me to the local hospital for a checkup on the ankle and the ribs. Good news! No broken bones. Torn achilles tendon and sprained ankle along with bruised ribs. 

Now, Fast forward for exactly one month. On Monday 20 May 2013, "Molly" (our Boston Terrier) and I went for our typical morning walk. I had been absent on these walks for the first week after the fall, but with a walking stick my walking improved considerably. Molly was walked by Joy during my unavailability. As Molly and I approached our house, two Pit Bull Terriers attempted an attack on Molly and me. We were not injured, but I cannot say the same for that pair of Pit Bulls. I made each dog do a back-flip with swift kicks to each of their "Adam's apples". Even though both dogs were temporarily disabled, they both continued to attach even further. Fortunately, with Molly under my right arm, I had landed 4- carefully placed kicks on each dog - and the pair hobbled away. That pair is owned by an Irresponsible Pet Owner. Those dogs have killed and dismembered 3- dogs in our neighborhood in recent years. Then, I felt like an EXPERT! And YES - if you are wondering, I am back to using the walking stick - I reinjured that left ankle in my efforts to protect my little innocent dog.

The moral to this seemingly unrelated story is that we should all be observant and learn from our experiences!

Otis Guillebeau from Auburn, Georgia


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

OPG3 said:


> Back on original topic and on original statements... *Otis* _(me I am guessing)_ *isn't really an expert on anything having to do with woodworking* (or shooting great distances with super accuracy). I more consider myself a "visionary" in product development than an "expert" on woodworking. I am quite observant of some things and (according to Joy) not nearly observant of other things.
> 
> I do from time-to-time have need to make multiple copies of a project that I am tasked with fabricating. One line of thought is that an "expert" would build all of the copies in an exactly alike manner. On the obverse, most people would learn as each copy is made and learn a little on each one - eventually producing successive copies in an ever-decreasing span of time. Still others will make mistakes along the way and continue to repeat those mistakes similarly. In this example, I find myself in the middle of the categories.
> 
> ...


Otis, I sure am sorry to hear about your fall, sounds like it was really bad. 

In regard to the issue of experience, as I have said before. When I was born I was given complete and absolute free will, but no wisdom to go along with it. After 75 years I have gained a little wisdom, not a lot by the way, but what I gained came as your say Otis, from life's experience.

Jerry


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Otis- Sorry to hear about your injuries. Hope you are healing well. I wish Joy would get you some pepper spray for your walks.

I would never have though someone would pepper spray themselves, but the main ingredient of the topical ointment the VA has me trying now for my back and shoulder, is the same as pepper spray.

I agree with Otis on that. Experience. Being exposed to various things and hopefully learning from those experiences. I still try to learn something every day. There are lots of things that peak my interest and I want to learn. And some things I learn from a beginner... or "teaching" a beginner. 

Funny how when I was tasked to train others, that when I explained to someone else what I was doing or how to do something, that some things just didn't make sense and I ended up changing those things.

And when you get into the swing of doing things and you've always done it that way, it sure is refreshing when that light bulb comes after someone asks "Why don't you do it this way?" (Because I never knew that way existed or never thought it was possible!?!)


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Otis; good to hear you're recovering! That torn Achilles will take at least 18 months to fully heal.
On the dog thing, Bear Spray, or a water pistol with a diluted solution of household ammonia will work like a hot damn.


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

You are either extremely well trained, or exceedingly fortunate, to survive the attack of two dogs. When seconds count, a cop is only minutes away. I carry a cane, and feel confident I could take care of one dog, but doubtful with two.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Otis...
sorry about all of your calamity...
get well dude....




JOAT said:


> You are either extremely well trained, or exceedingly fortunate, to survive the attack of two dogs. When seconds count, a cop is only minutes away. I carry a cane, and feel confident I could take care of one dog, but doubtful with two.



concealed carry just may have been the solution...


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

Stick486 said:


> concealed carry just may have been the solution...


Exactly. My neighbor has three rotweillers. I carry.
Not long ago a double amputee was pulled from his wheelchair and killed by pit bulls.

http://www.newsmax.com/TheWire/amputee-killed-dogs-dragged/2013/05/15/id/504576


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## OPG3 (Jan 9, 2011)

> You are either extremely well trained, or exceedingly fortunate, to survive the attack of two dogs. When seconds count, a cop is only minutes away. I carry a cane, and feel confident I could take care of one dog, but doubtful with two.


Theo, 100% true! 
1. *I am well trained* (15 years as a Dangerous Animal Specialist), but I have worked with animals that thought of me as a snack. When working at the Atlanta Zoo Reptile Building in the early 1970s, I was in charge of the solariums. We had Alligators, Caimen, Crocodiles and Gharials. Of that group, there were some animals that were "dog tame" and others that considered me a potential meal. With most gharials, you can slowly approach them and they will eat from your hand. They look more ferocious than any of the other animals, but are actually quite shy. Alligators are _comparatively_ slow moving and will most often back-away. Caimen are the creatures you have to be most cautious of - they can run like a lizard, jump like a frog and they attack anything that makes them mad or hungry. But our biggest threat was a 13 foot long, 1,200 pound (estimated weight) Salt Water Crocodile. He was affectionately known as "Dilbeck". This was the last name of a very mean old man that worked a prison crew that cleaned the grounds and concourses throughout the zoo. Dilbeck (the man) wore a revolver, carried a shotgun, but made daily use of a long-handled, square nose shovel. With the strapped to his shoulder shotgun, Dilbeck would quite often use his shovel to beat the tar and nicotine from the prisoners that he was charged with overlooking. Dilbeck (the Salty) could jump 7 feet high vertically and seemed to be always hungry. Dilbeck couldn't run as fast as a caiman, but he could swing his tail faster than most people can ever imagine!
2. *I was extremely fortunate.* When you do dangerous animal work, you only get calls on animals that worker's compensation policies forbid local animal control personnel from working with. No chihuahuas, no housecats. My "specialty" was reptiles that were considered too dangerous for animal control officers to work with. When doing this type of work, one must keep a "cool head". People that get alarmed in emergency situations are not cut-out for working with cobras, mambas and other venomous snakes, etc. It was not that rare for me to go onto a property and remove large constrictors, dangerous lizards, crocodilians, etc. We saw a lot of real strange setups - most of which were "black market animals" owned by various types of criminals. I have been attacked by people and animals, because after surveillance; I was usually the first guy in the building.

It takes years of working with dangerous animals to learn what to expect from a behavioral standpoint - different dog breeds attack in different ways! Fortunately, pit bulls are mostly "ground fighters" and this enabled me to make effective kicks to both attackers. Dobermans are great jumpers and Shepherds usually go for arms and bodies. Most of the dogs I had to deal with were simply "in my path" toward the reptiles, but still they had to be dealt with effectively.

Just like experience teaches important lessons, working with wood gives us experience and if we make a point of being observant, that experience can help on our path to becoming an expert. Just yesterday, I did some really funky work on my computer using AutoCAD to develop 3d models of a prototype I am about to build for one of my own inventions. It took about 3 hours to create the initial drawings. What I did would take most computer users several days, but because I have over 25 years of _*extremely observant experience*_ with AutoCAD - I was able to do the work in a relatively short period of time. Here is the funny thing about this: Now I need to create something similar in many ways, and I will do the same amount of work in one-half or one-third of the time! That is experience, but that IS NOT EXPERT!

Thanks to all for the kind comments!
Otis Guillebeau from Auburn, Georgia


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## MEBCWD (Jan 14, 2012)

Stan Richardson said:


> Mike,
> the hand full of woodworkers that I have met in my area have been very snotty, wouldn't help you across the street. the 4 that I did meet seems to me have no interest in meeting other woodworkers. The woodworking club in my area meets on Tuesdays at 10:00am (really really??) most people work Mon thru Fri 9-5? It's one hot mess in south Florida, I have begged on Craigslist to meet new woodworkers, not one response. Oh well back to YouTube to keep teaching myself how to be a woodworker lol..oh made these key chains tonight, how you guys cut with flat skip tooth blades is unreal, I just cant master it. gotta go back to the spirals


*Anyone willing to help Stan out with his scrollsawing that might live near by send him a PM and maybe you'll find a great new friend that can share tips and tricks!*

Jerry,
I never lose that great feeling when everything goes right and I get that prefect fit. I do make mistakes from time to time but I try to remember my mistakes instead of forgetting them so that hopefully I won't repeat them. The most important thing is to enjoy your time in the shop and if you can share your love of woodworking with family and friends you will find that time spent in the shop is even more rewarding.


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

OPG3 said:


> People that get alarmed in emergency situations are not cut-out for working with cobras, mambas and other venomous snakes, etc.


A 12 ga pump, with about a 20" barrel, and snake shot, somehow always sets my mind at ease in cases like that.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

JOAT said:


> A 12 ga pump, with about a 20" barrel, and snake shot, somehow always sets my mind at ease in cases like that.


seems to me that you are fixing to ruin lunch...


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

Stick486 said:


> seems to me that you are fixing to ruin lunch...


For a poisonous snake? Who cares. But it would take ones head off nicely.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

_My_ lunch is ruined...
Recipe for Fried Snake


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

JOAT said:


> For a poisonous snake? Who cares. But it would take ones head off nicely.


I do...
happen to like BBQ'd snake...


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

DaninVan said:


> _My_ lunch is ruined...
> Recipe for Fried Snake



your lunch???


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

O.K., now that the this thread has turned to snakes, I have an important question, at least ti's important to me. As you that know me due to reading my threada and posts know that I moved from non snake country, Alaska, to big time snake country, West Texas about ten years ago. So far I have encountered three only four snakes, three of them were West Texas Diamond Backs, but none of the encounters were close to being a problem. I attended on Rattle snake round up shortly after moving here and a snake handler at that event made the remarl that if you step near enough to a rattle snake and he rattles, that if you can just stand perfedtly still that the snake will just crawl away and not bother you. I do not know if I could keep jusmping if I encountered a snake like that, my question of course has to do with what anybody than knows about snakes thinks of this remark that the snake handler made. 

My first encounter with a snake was when I moved my wifed's plants inside for the winter, there must have been a small rattle snake in one of the pots. A few days later my wife saw him in ghe kitchen and it went uner the refrigerator. I got a board after we both put on our boots by the way, I moved the frig and pinned the little snake against the wall with the board and killed it with another board. No big deal but that was before we spotted him before we ahd an occasion to surprise him.

The other time was after I had mowed the lawn and had used the trimmer, I wass finishing up and notiece what looked like a rope coiled up on the lawn and in my ignorance just picked it up. I had cut the tail off of the snake with the trimmer and stunned it. It had coiled up on its bsck so that the light under belly iw what I had seen, however, it did not take me long to realizx that it was not a piece of rppe and I gave the snake a very quick fling, I killed it with a hoe, again, it was not a large snake, but size has nothing to do with the danger or so I am told.

The third encounter was when my wife had asked me to cut down an old shrub near the patio. I used the cnain saw to cut the it down, the base or what became the stump was hollow and there was a snake coiled up in side of it and I cut the snake into several pieces with the saw which rendered it somewhat harmless but did not kill it immediately.

Recently I came in from the shop and as I stepped on the patio there was a large snake laying right there all stretched out, I stepped around it, went inside and got my camera and took some pictures before it crawled away, but we believe that it was only a bull snake and not a rattler, we were able to tell that from the photos, but I did not know that until after others had looked at the pictures. So, hopefully, I can stand still if I ever hear that buzz that I have only heard in the movies so far. There is a rumer going around that the snakes have quit rattles due to their encounters with the many wild pigs that have become so common here in the past several years, I don't know of course, but living here where the big rattles live does not thrill me and I am paying closer attention lately.

Jerry


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Jerry Bowen said:


> O.K., now that the this thread has turned to snakes, I have an important question, a snake handler at that event made the remark that if you step near enough to a rattle snake and he rattles, *that if you can just stand perfectly still that the snake will just crawl away and not bother you. *
> I moved the frig and pinned the* little snake* against the wall with the board and killed it with another board.
> *
> it was not a large snake*, but size has nothing to do with the danger or so I am told.
> ...


yes on stand still for rattlers but never ever trust a water moccasin... 
small snakes have way more potent venom than large snakes and a dead snake is still dangerous because their venom is stored in cheek pouches and remains deadly for a very very long time...
BS on the pig/rattle rumor...
Jerry you need to learn snake I.D. and how to cook up some of the rattlers that you keep making a mess of...


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## Daikusan (Apr 12, 2013)

Stick486 said:


> I do...
> happen to like BBQ'd snake...


BBQ snakes, BBQ gator and raw fish (sushi), now that’s living. . . :yes4:


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

I was just kidding, Stick. Just small Garter snakes where we are; they eat the slugs so are more than welcome in our garden.
(There are rattlers up in the dry B.C. Interior however)


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

DaninVan said:


> _My_ lunch is ruined...
> Recipe for Fried Snake



I understand that Guam has been overrun by these introduced tree snakes.

That's a good way to whittle down the numbers.:yes4:


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

Years ago my dad met a guy in Arizona who made money supplying rattlesnakes to local eating establishments. They would accept live rattlers, but he preferred taking their heads off with a 20ga shotgun. He got $1 a foot, and the eateries skinned and cleaned them, then sold cooked snake for $5 a foot.

Personally I consider snake starvation food, somthing you eat to keep from starving to death. But, to show my good intent, here's some recipes that may be new to you. 
Grilled RoadKill 
And, some easy listening music to go along with your meal.
Leroy Troy - Five Pounds Of Possum - YouTube


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

Daikusan said:


> BBQ snakes, BBQ gator and raw fish (sushi), now that’s living. . . :yes4:


If you cook sushi it tastes just like fish.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

"If you cook sushi it tastes just like fish." Heh...good one!

Theo; more easy listening...
the snake - YouTube


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

dinner time...


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

jw2170 said:


> I understand that Guam has been overrun by these introduced tree snakes.
> 
> That's a good way to whittle down the numbers.:yes4:


Except they weren't introduced, they apparently made it in on their own. This sounds like a really screwy idea, but apparently it might help. 
Will Poisoned Mice Solve Guam's Snake Problem | Brown Tree Snake | LiveScience 

Florida's Burmese Pythons now, those were introduced, and a major problem. And I've read of cobras, mambas, Nile Monitor Lizards, giant african snails, lion fish in the sea off the coast, and who knows what all else, loose down there. They're not doing much about controlling/destroying any of them from what I read, and what they are trying is pretty unsuccessful - apparently politicians are the 'leaders' on the 'efforts'. Those pythons are nasty critters, they'll even tackle the alligators.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfYAj1k9uZM 
The video says they are competing for the same resources, but not true, the snakes eat everything, birds, eggs, small animals, they found one with a grown deer that had been eaten, they even eat alligators. At the rate they are going, they're going to run out of animals to eat, and start on people.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/10/1006_051006_pythoneatsgator.html


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Jerry Bowen said:


> O.K., now that the this thread has turned to snakes,
> 
> Jerry


Topics within topics within topics within topics within a thread and so on...
It's called "highjacking" which seems to be about any forum's national/international sport... 
Some ignore the festivities, others spectate, then there are those who participate and those that whine about a thread getting "derailed" or switched to a new track... 
Often venomously....

Given plenty of time and enough posts/subject changes even the most discombobulated threads seem to come full circle and pick up where they started...
Or would that be left off??? Went sideways???


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

DaninVan said:


> Theo; more easy listening...
> the snake - YouTube


Not my cuppa. Now THIS is easy listening.
Clanadonia - " Hamsterheid " - YouTube


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

Stick486 said:


> Topics within topics within topics within topics within a thread and so on...
> It's called "highjacking" which seems to be about any forum's national/international sport...
> Some ignore the festivities, others spectate, then there are those who participate and those that whine about a thread getting "derailed" or switched to a new track...
> Often venomously....
> ...


The important part is, we're all having fun.


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

Not sure if Jerry's thread got highjacked, like stick suggested, or it just drifted. But, just in case, I'm going to start a new thread, Snakes, Et Al.

Here's the link. http://www.routerforums.com/lobby/42033-snakes-et-al.html#post340474


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

JOAT said:


> The important part is, we're all having fun.


with a touch of camaraderie....


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

Stick486 said:


> dinner time...


Dang...if you stepped on that thing, it could jump up and bite you on the nose......


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## Daikusan (Apr 12, 2013)

JOAT said:


> Not my cuppa. Now THIS is easy listening.
> Clanadonia - " Hamsterheid " - YouTube


Different strokes for different folks, the drums reminded me of the Japanese Taiko. So I found a couple. I sorta figure don’t mess with the little kid in the first one, he is stronger than what you think…4-9-2011 Taiko Drum Concert for Children @ Mid Hudson Children's Museum (Part 5/5) - YouTube

The second I like because it has scenes you see daily around Japan, well maybe not the drummers on the hill by the ocean. You can hear the drums a mile and the big ones reverberate the whole building. Kodo - Spirit of Taiko - YouTube


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## Daikusan (Apr 12, 2013)

Found this when looking for drums of a different beat. It fits right in with the forum and this thread, is this guy an expert or a beginner? Frank Doggs' router lathe - YouTube


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## OPG3 (Jan 9, 2011)

*Miscellaneous Snake Information...*

SNAKES is my subject where I probably do qualify as an expert! I've been interested in snakes for well-over 50 years. I have kept captive snakes since 1961. This all started because I was not good at sports such as baseball and football. My only sibling is David, he is 32 months younger than me. David walked before me - because he was always very physically capable and because I was born with both legs broken - following a bad accident my mother had been in while I was a fetus. Kinda like the kid that had a pork chop strapped to his neck so his dog would play with him, I felt a need to engage in something that I could share with my Dad. I certainly was a disappointment in sports!

Anyway, I really stayed with this interest in snakes because they were unique and it seemed nobody else seemed to share the interest. Studying about them became a thing that I just continued to be fascinated with for all of these years. My Dad would enjoy helping me develop skills for all facets of the hobby. Since he was a structural engineer, he saw this as an opportunity for me to learn about designing projects - so I would design habitats for us to build to keep the snakes in. My Dad and I learned together to design and build cages. In my efforts to build the best cages possible (in my eyes), I learned a lot of basic woodworking skills. I had an after school job cleaning-out houses during construction, and since this was during a "boom economic time" - anything that the builder deemed "burn it", I sought permission to take it home and use for cage building. I rode my bicycle to the subdivision where I worked and since I had materials to bring home daily, my Dad would drive his old junky weekend work truck to pick-up me, my bicycle and whatever left-over materials that the builder allowed. I was tasked with unloading the truck and fortunately I was alotted a large enough basement area to keep materials somewhat organized. This exposure taught me at an early age about materials and their best applications, etc.

By the time I reached high school, I had accumulated a wealth of information about snakes and other reptiles. I was certainly a kid that wanted notoriety - but it was obvious that it wasn't going to come from my "sports career"! In my first biology class, my teacher quickly realized that I was "far ahead" in both knowledge and a thirst for more knowledge - to the point that I became kind-of-a teacher's aide. This made me be popular where otherwise I would have gone completely unnoticed. I was an odd student, in classes that I deemed "interesting", I made perfect grades, but in classes that bored me - I was a miserable failure. I found common denominators with subjects such as science, geography and math - but literally could not find anything that I enjoyed about history and literature - so my grades in those classes were exceedingly low. My parents insisted that I go to college, but for the first year; all of my classes were "remedial". I was completely frustrated with college! 

My Dad brought to me a newspaper article where the Atlanta Zoo was looking for 3- new employees. There was an entry exam that must be taken. My Dad suggested that I go and take the test and "it will make you see how much you need to stay in school". I went and took the test and a few weeks later I learned that I made a perfect 100% score on the test. It was an AZA Standard Test and I scored the best ever in the nation. I took the job - which meant that I dropped-out of school. I never went back to school, except for some trade school training and seminars. Over the following few years, I married Joy and we had 3- daughters. I went through several career changes, but always maintained a keen interest in herpetology.

By now, I have worked with every species of snake, except Sea Snakes. I have worked with venomous and non-venomous, and from tiny to huge. About the time we started having grandchildren, I quit keeping venomous snakes in my home collection. Now, my collection consists entirely of constricting snakes and a handful of lizards. I still know how to work with venomous snakes, but no longer have the desire to do so. Most of the snakes in my collection are long-term captives. I even have one Boa Constrictor that has been a pet since 1972. Boas and Pythons typically live 45-60 years, so they represent a long-term committment similar to parrots and some other species.

I never scare people with snakes! When people visit my house to see the reptile collection, I first set them down and explain that their visit will be completely safe, clean and non-frightening. Every first-time guest comments after their visit that is was not what they had initially expected. They do not leave frightened, uncomfortable or grossed-out.

Snakes are quite likely the most misunderstood group of animals on our planet. Interestingly, many people think snakes are all mean and aggressive. This is false, wild snakes do fear oncoming people - because they perceive it as aggression. One reason they perceive people as aggressive is because it is often true - the person tries to injure or kill them. Snakes are completely deaf! It is due to the deafness that snakes often do not notice "oncoming traffic" until it is very near them - the snake is startled and some people interpret the snake's reaction as aggression.

When people tell me of a snake they killed, I ask if they left-out cookies or bread? They say, "What?" I then tell them that most snakes feed on rodents and killing snakes gives benefit to rodents. Here in the Metro Atlanta, Georgia area the C.D.C. is headquartered. CDC recognizes 16- potentially fatal diseases that are tranmitted via rodents. All 16- of these diseases are "stopped-in-their-tracks" if that rodent is eaten by a snake. Potentially fatal diseases transmitted by wild snakes: 0. Snakes move very slowly, but their means of locomotion often make it appear that they are moving much faster than they actually are! No arms, no legs, deaf as a rock and most with poor vision - snakes "make their living" by feeding on numerous fast-moving prey items using stealth approaches, high intelligence and a very keen sense of smell! Since most snakes can survive in good health with only one meal per month, they can afford to be patient hunters! Many of the prey items for snakes are caught at night while they are asleep, yet others are caught by being outsmarted, ambushed or over-powered.

Since the Brown Tree Snake subject has been mentioned, let me also say this.
I am working with the USGS in early (for me) efforts to help control the invasive Brown Tree Snakes. Many methods are being considered. Brown Tree Snakes (Boiga irregularis) were inadvertantly imported into Guam by a variety of [careless] methods back around the late 1940's. I have never been to Guam, but have been told by the "higher-ups" to be ready for the trip. I have written several publications on the planned extinction of the BTS on Guam. My papers have been forwarded to US Government Officials and they are being considered, but are hampered by several current factors. Due to national security reasons, I am not at libery to share all that I know; but know this: BTS on Guam grow to over 3 meters in length / in their native habitat they rarely exceed 2 meters in length. BTS in their native habitat breed annually or more often once every 2 or 3 years / in Guam they usually breed twice per year. BTS in their native environment are considered "mildly venomous" / but the BTS in Guam is considered "dangerously venomous" - mostly due to it increased venom yield (bigger snakes produce more venom). My suggestion was for a "multi-pronged approach" including toxins (already being utillized and tested), some new products (in early developmental stages) and some new practices at electrical distribution points.

BTS are a problem in Guam for many reasons, but the two main reasons are: 
Protection of native wildlife (some of the native birds are already thought to be extinct).
Economic - Electrical outages due to the snakes are currently costing $16,500,000 yearly!

Also, in posts previous; someone mentioned the possibility of young snakes being more toxic or dangerous or deadly than their adult counterparts. There is a little bit of truth to this. When the doctor pokes you with a syringe, he or she still must "push the plunger". It is a two-step process. The venom of young snakes is not more toxic, but rather an older (wiser) snake knows from experience how to deliver a "dry bite" to ward-off an attack by what they perceive as a predator. Young snakes are "more impulsive" and often use up all of their stored venom - which leaves them without venom necessary to acquire a meal. Their expelled venom typically is replaced within a few days.

I hope this is found interesting and helpful.

Otis Guillebeau from Auburn, Georgia


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

Otis's explanation of both why his life went it has and his expertise on snakes and reptiles is extremdly interesting to me. My life was also effected due to a physical issue. Now I know that many of you that have followed my on the forum will, after I tell what happened, will say "Ah, that explains so much about that Jerry guy". So, here we go. When I was three years old my folks lived on a farm in Kansas, there was no running water in the hours and all of the water had to be pumped by hand from a well, the pump was outside and one day my mom was pumping water. Now for you that aren't famiier with hand operated water pump, the water is pumped with a large cast iron handle. Anyway, unbeknown to her, I walked up behind her and whe came down with that big pump handle right on top of my head. I was in a comma for several days and guess that I was lucky to survive according to what I have been told, of course I have no recollection of the event. Apparently my optic nerve was damaged and my vision is not very good. Like Otis, I loved sports but could not follow a baseball in flight and have a great deal of problems with bright light. The light thing has gotten worse over the last 50 years. The point of all of this is that since I coujldn't excel in sports I turned to shooting and that is why you constantly read of experience with shooting and why I consider myself to be an expert on the precsion issues that come up. When I was seventeen I joined the National Guard, that first year all of us in my company had to qualify with our weapons, in those days we were issued M1 Garands. Anyway, the first stage that we had to shoot was off hand at 100 yards. Off hand is standing up in case you don't know. Anyway, I was afraid that I could not see well enough to qualify. As we stood there getting ready to shoot I looked that the target, it was solid black and 12" in diameter. I could not see any rings to tell me what I had to do to get the best score. I asked my buddy standing next to me how big the center ring was in the target, he answered, "Jerry, there are not rings". I breathed a sigh of relief, that 12" target was about the size of my backstop at hope, I relaxed had a great two days of shooting. On the following Monday my dad brought the local newspaper home with. He had a big grin on his face and asked me to read the article about the National Guard's qualification shooting. I had the only Expert score, Not only had I had the best score in our company, I also had the best score in the entire battalion of over 600 officers and enlisted men. All of a sudden I had found an area in my life that I could be proud of and of course my interestest really took off from there. 

That was in 1955, I did not really get into the precision shooting until 1973. My interest in shooting was much like most gun nuts until I got interested in the benchrest game. I began to load my own ammunition before I joined the National Guard, but the really good ammunition didn't come along until I got into precision shooting. Part of that was swagine precision bullets on some very high end swaging dies that cost more than a good hunting rifle. I advertised and sold my bullets. I had customers from all over the world and never had a complaint. This was not a really lucrative endeavor and I gave it up after just a few months. Making bullets is not much fun, but shooting them in competition and seeing those little bug holes appear on the target where shot after shot was going through the same hole, now, to me, that was a real thrill.

Jerry


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

Daikusan said:


> Different strokes for different folks, the drums reminded me of the Japanese Taiko. So I found a couple. I sorta figure don’t mess with the little kid in the first one, he is stronger than what you think…4-9-2011 Taiko Drum Concert for Children @ Mid Hudson Children's Museum (Part 5/5) - YouTube
> 
> The second I like because it has scenes you see daily around Japan, well maybe not the drummers on the hill by the ocean. You can hear the drums a mile and the big ones reverberate the whole building. Kodo - Spirit of Taiko - YouTube


But where's the bagpipes?


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

Daikusan said:


> Found this when looking for drums of a different beat. It fits right in with the forum and this thread, is this guy an expert or a beginner? Frank Doggs' router lathe - YouTube


That's pretty slick. I would have set it up with a hand power plane myself; and yes, I've done it, just not quite as sophisticated as this guy.


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

Interesting Otis. Any idea of what the Florida status is on their snakes? And just how many varieties there are loose down there? From what I've read there isn't a whole lot of action, positive action at any rate, being taken. Glad I don't live in Florida.


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## Daikusan (Apr 12, 2013)

JOAT said:


> But where's the bagpipes?


Theo
Opps my bad. . . I forgot the important part. 

Interesting you mentioned that, you just reminded me of something. I was walking by a house I walk by 8-10 time a week. I heard a bagpipe playing. Its normal to hear people practicing various instruments, but never bagpipes. I stopped to listen thinking it was a stereo, a really good one at that I thought. When the person repeated a few measures a couple of times and started the piece over decided it was the real thing. Who ever it was must have one good set of lungs. Do you play?


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## Daikusan (Apr 12, 2013)

Otis and Jerry
Thanks for the interesting explanations. I learned something.


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## OPG3 (Jan 9, 2011)

> Interesting Otis. Any idea of what the Florida status is on their snakes? And just how many varieties there are loose down there? From what I've read there isn't a whole lot of action, positive action at any rate, being taken. Glad I don't live in Florida.


Those are good and valid questions Theo, and I'm not convinced that anyone truly knows an answer for the "how many varieties" segment. It all gets-back to irresponsible pet ownership IMHO. Far too many people have pets that were bought on impulse and so very often these pets escape their intended confines. Since snakes and other reptiles are ectothermic (they used to call this cold-blooded), they have optimal environmental conditions - especially thermal. Snakes and lizards escape cages all over the world, but as they say, "It takes two to tango". Almost every part of the planet has seasonal temperature fluctuations, and quite often when someone's pet escapes and makes it into the the great outdoors - cold temperatures are encountered resulting, quite likely in an expiration of the escapee when temperatures drop. 

Where the problem occurs is escapees that can survive year-round in their new range. The large Burmese Python situation in Florida is just one example. Due to their popularity in the pet trade, Burmese Pythons are prone to account for the bulk percentage of the reptiles that escape their intended captive evironments. Burmese Pythons are very instinctive and easily adapt to the outdoor conditions they find when outdoors in some parts of Florida. In addition there also have been collected African Rock Pythons, Reticulated Pythons, Anacondas and Boa Constrictors. Of this list, the Burmese Pythons are the most likely species to mate with others of their kind and then reproduce in their new "host" environment. African Rock Pythons are seldom kept as captives because they are difficult to tame and acclimate into captivity. Reticulated Pythons are also often kept as pets, but often because of costs; these are less likely to fall into the hands of irresponsible owners. Anacondas could be problematic, but they are seldom found very far from water. Boa Constrictors do not attain sizes anywhere close to what these other snakes do - and are therefore less likely to become the problem that the big pythons can become. All 3- of these python species have been known to interbreed and the likelihood of these hybrids occuring is not rare. Most people in herpetology refer to inter-racial pythons as "CatEaters". This is a problem because similar to the Brown Tree Snake situation in Guam, much of the native bird and mammal populations are not instinctively geared to avoid these new predators. 

The most effective manner that I have personally seen employed is for there to be payable bounties for removal of said invasive species. In Guam the problem is that the Brown Tree Snakes are venomous; in Florida the constrictors are dangerous to those without the experience to deal with them. Southern Florida represents a habitat that allows year-round conditions conducive to healthy living for the invaders.

Our planet is littered with invasive species and in many cases this causes problems.

Otis Guillebeau from Auburn, Georgia


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

Otis,
Just wondering if you know anything about "Ice Snakes" that we have in Alaska?


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Otis, there was a special on TV a little here a while ago about the Burmese and African pythons that stated basically what you said. They have pretty good reason to believe that they have interbred and that mixes the African rock python's aggressiveness with the Burmese's size making for a dangerous combination at about 20 feet long. However, the hide must be worth a bit and they might be very tasty, I know rattlesnake and eel are. A bounty combined with the other might help keep the population in check. 

Coincidentally, the worst area was near the Miami airport, as was also the case for a few other problem species.


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## OPG3 (Jan 9, 2011)

Jerry, That is the first time I have ever heard that term "Ice Snakes". I have no clue of what it is in reference to.

Chuck, Personally I have never eaten python or boa. Just recently I consumed alligator and it was very tasty. You're correct on the hybrid types. African Rock Pythons are very aggressive 95% of the time, while Burmese pythons are easily tamed when young. Some people try to tame "Afrock" pythons when young, but there usually comes that day when they decide to abandon their tameness and then bite for the face of the handler.
"Retic" pythons also are face biters if not properly tamed while young. Another python, the Amethystine (a.k.a. Scrub) python is from Australia - I've never heard of these in Florida, but they can really be a handful - mainly because of size and strike distance.
Most snakes can strike from a coiled position about 1/3 of their overall length; however, Afrock, Retic & Scrub pythons can often "reach out and touch someone" from up to 1/2 of their overall length! By comparison to Afrocks, Burmese Pythons are lazy. Burmese Pythons often "bulk-up" body weight at about 9-12 feet in length, yet Afrock & Retics usually do not "bulk-up" until 12-15 feet long.

I hope this clears-up some things we have may be hearing in recent news.

Otis


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

They go for the face! There was a kid who lived up the street from me in the early and mid sixties that had a bunch of snakes for pets. He managed to get his hands on a 5' anaconda which he kept in the bath tub (part time I am assuming). He went in to check on it, maybe a week after he got it and his older brother heard a commotion and ran in and found the anaconda attached to his brother's face. At which point he beat it off him and killed it. 

I'll remember to put my arm up if confronted.


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

OPG3 said:


> The most effective manner that I have personally seen employed is for there to be payable bounties for removal of said invasive species.


I agree with that, but the only manner I have read that has been done so far is to capture the Burmese Pythons, alive, take them in, so they can measure them and whatall, and kill them later. That sounds quite stupid to me, I say find one, shoot it, then take the head for the bounty. If they want measurements, measure them before lopping the head off, then you could get on with hunting for more snakes. A two man crew could get a lot more snakes that way then even a larger crew could do capturing them alive. I know in several different states it's a pretty good business, having feral hog hunts. I would imagine it could do pretty well for python hunts in the Everglades, with night hunts, using night vision equipment. A well placed .22 round would do the job I would think.


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

Daikusan said:


> Do you play?


I play the radio very well, comes from years of practice.


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## paduke (Mar 28, 2010)

While in the infantry I was an Ammo sergeant. We wound up with a case of M16 ammo that had an expired case lot. We had to shoot it off to get the brass to get a new ammo. The armorer and I went to the range for a couple of days. This fella could keep a #10 can in the air shot after shot, repeatedly nicking the bottom of the can and No bench rest


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

paduke said:


> While in the infantry I was an Ammo sergeant. We wound up with a case of M16 ammo that had an expired case lot. We had to shoot it off to get the brass to get a new ammo. The armorer and I went to the range for a couple of days. This fella could keep a #10 can in the air shot after shot, repeatedly nicking the bottom of the can and No bench rest


While in Nam I picked up a M2 carbine. It always jammed on about 2d or 3d shot on auto, but worked like a charm semi-auto, no matter how fast you pulled the trigger. Had access to all the ammo I wanted, and got so I could hit a soda can on the 1st or 2d shot, then hit it almost every shot. From the hip. Took a LOT of ammo to get that good.


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## OPG3 (Jan 9, 2011)

*Facial biting...*

Chuck (and others), Most snakes take note of another animal's eyes and their locations - this applies even when the "animal" is human. Everyone that works with Afrocks, Retics or Scrubs gets to tone their reflexes with facial bite "swings". Once you know the individual snake(s), you can often know when to back-out of strike range. You either get used to backing-up quickly or you suffer facial bites. Often to get a snake occupied, it is feasible to let the snake bite a towel - which when tugged appropriately keeps the snake's (curved backward) teeth something to be temporarily snagged on.

It can take years to be able to master this technique!..and if not done correctly simply makes an aggressive snake that much more aggressive - which is not fun. Even with their teeth "preoccupied" embedded into a towel, large constrictors can still be quite a handful - not something for the faint of heart.

Over the years, I have only suffered a handful of Anaconda bites - it is nasty and bleeds profusely. Boas, Anacondas & Pythons all have 110 needle-sharp teeth. People have only one movable jawbone (mandible), whereas snakes have 6. We (people) have a lower jawbone that is very rigid - snakes have left and right, upper and lower and palatine bone teeth. Especially on those python species - the palatine teeth are the longest. Palatine bones are in the roof of the mouth and straddle the glottis - which is the extendable windpipe. Being extendable makes it possible for snakes to consume large meals that can sometimes take over an hour to swallow whole - the glottis is simply extended down and out under the meal, much like a crude snorkel. Snakes are able to smell using their tongues, which are forked; the tongue tips are brought into the snake's mouth and inserted upwardly vertical into two holes on the palate. In this manner, a snake gets an immediate "reading" of smell comparison from one tongue tip to the other.

Otis


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

While I was on team, if we were not out and went to a range, we would fight over the 7.62x39 and 7.62x54R ammo cases! Fairly good sized. Wood. Finger jointed joints. Cyrillic labeling. Unique looking. I had a few, but I didn't hang on to any as life went on.

Great write up Otis! Also on sensing/seeing IR (heat), which our heads are the biggest source of heat loss, right? Growing up, one of my neighbors had a 15 foot boa. (It seemed bigger, but my parents said it was 15) It would get lose occasionally. Once it got lose while it was at our elementary school as the subject of "show and tell." LOL.


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

I don't know... anything that is large enough to think of someone as food is something to be wary of. 

What get's my head going? Of all things- 20 foot plus sturgeon. They just look prehistoric. I know they are bottom feeders, but you have to wonder if something that big might want some variety or mistake something small as a snack. Just me being wary.

EDIT-- LOL... I guess I should mention something about a woodworking tool or project to get this thread back somewhere on track right--> Harpoons.


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

In regard to Mike's suggestion to get back to woodworking sugjects, I'm attaching a photo of a table top that i'm working on, i'm down to polishing it with rotton stone using vegetable oil for a carrier, have a long ways to go but it is comeing along.

Jerry


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

looking good Jerry...


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

MAFoElffen said:


> I don't know... anything that is large enough to think of someone as food is something to be wary of.
> 
> What get's my head going? Of all things- 20 foot plus sturgeon. They just look prehistoric. I know they are bottom feeders, but you have to wonder if something that big might want some variety or mistake something small as a snack. Just me being wary.
> 
> EDIT-- LOL... I guess I should mention something about a woodworking tool or project to get this thread back somewhere on track right--> Harpoons.


When Kelowna, BC was building their floating bridge across Okanagan Lake they had a bunch of commercial divers working below. Some of the sturgeon in the lake came up to see what was going on and some of the divers refused to go back down again.


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## Daikusan (Apr 12, 2013)

Jerry
I agree with Stick “Looking Good.” How many hours you got into it?


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> When Kelowna, BC was building their floating bridge across Okanagan Lake they had a bunch of commercial divers working below. Some of the sturgeon in the lake came up to see what was going on and some of the divers refused to go back down again.


I used to live in Eastern WA. One of my friends had just gotten out the the Navy from SEALs. He got a job with the Corps of Engineers, diving at the heads of the dams clearing submerged logs... He swam to what he thought to be a big log and it wasn't. Was a big sturgeon. He quit.

Sturgeon fishing was a pastime there in Eastern WA. Stainless line. They will take live bait. Size limit was above 3 feet and below 6 feet. They were rarely below 6 feet. I used to sturgeon fish, until I hooked into one and it was a pulling our 26' boat (cabin cruiser) upriver (On the Snake River) below/towards Ice Harbor Dam, against major current (the spillways were open)... I cut the line. Reminded me later when the movie "Jaws" came out and one of the actors said "We're gonna need a bigger boat!"








At least to me, sturgeon are modern day prehistoric abnormalities. I am un-nerved by few things- big sturgeon are one of those few things.


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## OPG3 (Jan 9, 2011)

*Swimming with WHAT?*

Interesting about the sturgeon...I have no pertinent knowledge of those fish..A few years ago, Joy and I went on a diving trip to swim with manatees. We love swimming and diving and neither of us had swam in the Crystal River - we had always _wanted_ to, but never prior had the opportunity presented itself. There were longnose gar swimming alongside of us and when they are close enough to touch with your hand it was initially a bit unnerving. Interestingly fish that will dart-away if you're walking alongside the river - simply swim-up and investigate people, manatees, boats, etc.
We saw several manatees and that in itself made the entire trip worthwhile! The manatees all wanted close contact with us - and we would scratch their backs while they would roll-over to get all parts scratched! We saw why they are often called "sea-cows", as peting their faces is just like doing the same thing on a horse or a cow.
Not having tape measures handy - we can only guess lengths, but I am going to guess that some of the gar were 5 or 6 feet long, and some of the larger manatee appeared to be 8 or 9 feet long.
I cannot imagine what a 20 foot long fish (6 meters) would look like - but it would probably get us back on land really soon!
Many years ago, while diving; we came upon a group of stingrays - one of them hit me across the backs of my legs (at exactly knee level). My legs still have scars there, but the pain only lasted about 3- months!


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

OPG3 said:


> Interesting about the sturgeon...I have no pertinent knowledge of those fish..


You have sturgeon there also. Atlantic Sturgeon range from the Gulf of Mexico to Nova Scotia. In fact, 26 species of sturgeon in the Northern Hemisphere around the globe. There's fossils of them over 200 million years old. They can live in salt, brackish, fresh water.

They breed in fresh water. Here the small ones go up the fish ladders. The larger ones through the locks. The males don't start breeding until after 15 yo. The females after 25 yo. Like sharks, they don't have bones - they have cartilage. 

What do they eat? About everything. The small ones eat small organisms, algae, plants, shrimp, crustaceans... and will scavenge any decaying matter, including the carcasses of other sturgeon. As they get larger, they adapt to other live animals... frogs, mice, rats, mud puppies, live fish (to include full sized salmon).

I've never ever heard of one ever attacking a person... but after seeing how big they get and knowing they will go after live animals, it gets "my" mind turning.


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

Daikusan said:


> Jerry
> I agree with Stick “Looking Good.” How many hours you got into it?


Steve, I have a lot of hours, but this morning I ripped it apart and started all over, I hope that I can do better, it was not to the standard that I'm trying to reach, but remember, I am the first to admit that my skills so far are not equal to my standards, but I will keep trying. Thanks for the compliment though.

Jerry


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Jerry Bowen said:


> Steve, I have a lot of hours, but this morning I ripped it apart and started all over, I hope that I can do better, it was not to the standard that I'm trying to reach, but remember, I am the first to admit that my skills so far are not equal to my standards, but I will keep trying. Thanks for the compliment though.
> 
> Jerry


All the way down? I think that leads back to the title of this thread doesn't it?

It looked to me as a great piece... But maybe a closer look would have revealed what your were not satisfied with. But hearing that reminds me of the quote in Cherryville Chuck's signature line- "Someone I consider a master woodworker once told me that a master woodworker is not someone who never makes mistakes. *He is someone who is able to cover them up so that no one can tell*."

...and I agree on that. Skill in woodworking is not just creating something, (tooling and working with grain, showcasing the grain) but in the finishing (filling, sanding, staining, finish coat) of that creation into an end product.

EDIT-- I meant to say that "finishing" is an important skill... that we don't seem to share about and talk enough on here.


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

MAFoElffen said:


> All the way down? I think that leads back to the title of this thread doesn't it?
> 
> It looked to me as a great piece... But maybe a closer look would have revealed what your were not satisfied with. But hearing that reminds me of the quote in Cherryville Chuck's signature line- "Someone I consider a master woodworker once told me that a master woodworker is not someone who never makes mistakes. *He is someone who is able to cover them up so that no one can tell*."
> 
> ...and I agree on that. Skill in woodworking is not just creating something, (tooling and working with grain, showcasing the grain) but in the finishing (filling, Msanding, staining, finish coat) of that creation into an end product.



Mike,

Part of the problem, but not all, had to do with the fact that the table top had been drenched twice when the roof of the shop was partly blown off when the tornado went through. After I ripped the piece into two parts I found that there was .020" difference in the thicknesses of the halves. Also there was a place where the frame was not adhered to the main table top. The point being of course is that no matter my present skill levels, trying harder will improve them, hopefully anyway. I am in touch almost daily with one of the members of our forum that is coaching me and he is a great help to me on this project. 

Jerry


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

Jerry Bowen said:


> Steve, I have a lot of hours, but this morning I ripped it apart and started all over, I hope that I can do better, it was not to the standard that I'm trying to reach, but remember, I am the first to admit that my skills so far are not equal to my standards, but I will keep trying. Thanks for the compliment though.
> 
> Jerry


How did you have it fastened, that you could take it apart and start over? With my projects, they are glued together, and while you could get them apart, after a fashion, and a lot of hard work, it would be near impossible to salvage much to start over with. 

You may want to make a prototype next time, of inexpensive wood, and see how it turns out, and what you do wrong, and what you do right. One of the professionals does that, makes say a desk out of poplar, pine, whatever, to see how a new design will turn out, make any changes/corrections needed, then sells the prototype, at a much lower price of course, and proceeds to make a desk using the good stuff. Basically that is what I am doing with my canes; I have the skills, but running into technical problems, but getting them resolved one at a time, and more satisfied with the results with each one. Almost ready to start selling for real, and in the meantime willing to pass along my 'blemishes' at a reduced price.


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Theo-

I do that = experiment with cheaper wood.

Jerry-
I hear you. So that was the one you were asking about pre-tornado on glueup edge banded frame across glueup ends?

So when you ran a straight edge on the top (the visual side), how much was is out? Could you have brought the top back by torquing to an offset frame or by planing?

Yes, well, the water damage and not a good adhere on the outside frame... And besides, too late now right?

So are you going to glueedge rip the banding edge off, rip the glueup to 12" wide pieces (along a seam) to get it in your new planer... Then glue it back together, then edge band it again making the edge banding just a little wider to make up for the cuts?

Just curious...


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Jerry, I usually use these to attach my tops now. I think I used these even to attach the mdf based top of my daughter's coffee table. They allow for movement. The top won't move but the frame might. Lee Valley Tools - Item Search


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

JOAT said:


> How did you have it fastened, that you could take it apart and start over? With my projects, they are glued together, and while you could get them apart, after a fashion, and a lot of hard work, it would be near impossible to salvage much to start over with.
> 
> You may want to make a prototype next time, of inexpensive wood, and see how it turns out, and what you do wrong, and what you do right. One of the professionals does that, makes say a desk out of poplar, pine, whatever, to see how a new design will turn out, make any changes/corrections needed, then sells the prototype, at a much lower price of course, and proceeds to make a desk using the good stuff. Basically that is what I am doing with my canes; I have the skills, but running into technical problems, but getting them resolved one at a time, and more satisfied with the results with each one. Almost ready to start selling for real, and in the meantime willing to pass along my 'blemishes' at a reduced price.


Theo,
There was nothing to taking it apart, after first sanding all of the finish off and I mean completely off, I installed my magnetic feather board set up and my micro spitter into the table insert, kinda like wearing a belt and suspenders you know, can't be to safe. I lined the top up so tha the blade would cut where the parts of the main table were joined together and juspped the top into two pieces, then cut the frame off. I'll make a new frame. Remember, the reason for making the table the way that I am making it is to see if veneering the MDF for the main top and then putting a frame alround that top will hold over time without breaking the frame. However, this has turned out to be a great learning experience. I found a product that will stain the sap wood for one thing and I also have learned that the harder I try the more peticular I get and I think that is a good thing for me. I am pretty much a nit picker or what some might call me a perfectionist even though I am not skilled enough yet to do really good work. I do recall how good it felt when I was able to cut the six sided ring so that when it was glued together there were no gaps at all in the ring, it took some experimenting to get the cuts dead on as you that read the thread about it will recall. Anyway, these challenges are what makes working so enjoyable for me.

Jerry


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

Jerry Bowen said:


> Anyway, these challenges are what makes working so enjoyable for me.


I don't think you could say it's the challenges that make it enjoyable, rather the end results, when they turn out well. Right now I'm in the midst of changing/making all my chess piece masters - except the pawn. Not so enjoyable as you might think.
:sarcastic:


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## Daikusan (Apr 12, 2013)

JOAT said:


> Right now I'm in the midst of changing/making all my chess piece masters - except the pawn. Not so enjoyable as you might think.
> :sarcastic:


Hey making a chess set of masters is a chess game in its self. :sarcastic:


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

Daikusan said:


> Hey making a chess set of masters is a chess game in its self. :sarcastic:


Read about it in my thread, more like the Three Stooges at times.


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

JOAT said:


> I don't think you could say it's the challenges that make it enjoyable, rather the end results, when they turn out well. Right now I'm in the midst of changing/making all my chess piece masters - except the pawn. Not so enjoyable as you might think.
> :sarcastic:


O.K., I'll ask the silly question, what's a master, I play a little chess, but have never heard of a piece called a master. This question is for the sake of the other's that don't know either just in case i'm the only one. dah

Jerry


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

Jerry Bowen said:


> O.K., I'll ask the silly question, what's a master, I play a little chess, but have never heard of a piece called a master. This question is for the sake of the other's that don't know either just in case i'm the only one. dah
> 
> Jerry


You haven't been keep up. The masters are what I make my chess pieces with. I also have masters for making figure banks, puzzle rocking chairs, lawn reindeer, probably more. Some people call them different things, I call them masters - because with them I can make repeatable pieces, and just now I am making entirely new versions.


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

JOAT said:


> You haven't been keep up. The masters are what I make my chess pieces with. I also have masters for making figure banks, puzzle rocking chairs, lawn reindeer, probably more. Some people call them different things, I call them masters - because with them I can make repeatable pieces, and just now I am making entirely new versions.



OH!

Jerry


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## Daikusan (Apr 12, 2013)

Jerry Bowen said:


> O.K., I'll ask the silly question, what's a master, I play a little chess, but have never heard of a piece called a master. This question is for the sake of the other's that don't know either just in case i'm the only one. dah
> 
> Jerry


JOAT gave a good answer. Master is used in the recording industry also, starting back with the LP’s (long play vinyl records). Used in the tape recording world also. The master was kept carefully to make copies from. The same still holds true in the CD world. Likely the recording industry borrowed the term from wood workers or die makers. Maybe someone out there knows the etymology of “master” and can give more insight. I think it can also mean “standard”.


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

Daikusan said:


> JOAT gave a good answer. Master is used in the recording industry also, starting back with the LP’s (long play vinyl records). Used in the tape recording world also. The master was kept carefully to make copies from. The same still holds true in the CD world. Likely the recording industry borrowed the term from wood workers or die makers. Maybe someone out there knows the etymology of “master” and can give more insight. I think it can also mean “standard”.[/QUO,TE]
> 
> I can relate to what you are saying from my video productiona days in Alaska. In the days before digital technology came along, our raw footage was first generation. Then wen edited it and that was the second gereration, or first master, but we dared not use it and lose our work so we made a second master, that was a third generation, our copys of tha that which were sold were fourth generation and without the digital technology, well the results were less than wonderful, then all of that changed with we went to the new technology, the dubs looked as good as the original and of course editing a computer really change things too as you might imagine.
> 
> Jerry


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## Daikusan (Apr 12, 2013)

Jerry Bowen said:


> I can relate to what you are saying from my video productiona days in Alaska. In the days before digital technology came along, our raw footage was first generation. Then wen edited it and that was the second gereration, or first master, but we dared not use it and lose our work so we made a second master, that was a third generation, our copys of tha that which were sold were fourth generation and without the digital technology, well the results were less than wonderful, then all of that changed with we went to the new technology, the dubs looked as good as the original and of course editing a computer really change things too as you might imagine.
> 
> Jerry


Thank goodness we don’t have to go through all of that with wood masters. I would still be building masters. Now if I can just keep from loosing them. Yellow paint has been a thought.


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

Hey Jerry, I was looking for something else in my pictures folder, and ran across this one. It's three masters I used to use for making my wooden figure banks. Took several tries to get them accurate, especially the one on the left. Probably redid that one close to half a dozen times, maybe more. I'll keep the one on the left, for when I start making figure banks again, the other two are outmoded now, I'll be making new, easier and quicker to use, masters to replace them; I'll be making masters to do the other parts of the banks also, parts I just used to cut to size, using masters should speed things up.


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## Chris Curl (Feb 13, 2012)

to me, the real difference between a novice and a craftsman is that the craftsman makes fewer mistakes, and has learned how to recover when he does make a mistake.


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

JOAT said:


> Hey Jerry, I was looking for something else in my pictures folder, and ran across this one. It's three masters I used to use for making my wooden figure banks. Took several tries to get them accurate, especially the one on the left. Probably redid that one close to half a dozen times, maybe more. I'll keep the one on the left, for when I start making figure banks again, the other two are outmoded now, I'll be making new, easier and quicker to use, masters to replace them; I'll be making masters to do the other parts of the banks also, parts I just used to cut to size, using masters should speed things up.


Theo,
It's work like you show in the photos that cause me to realize how far I have to go. Needless to say, I may not understand how all the parts fit together, but I'm impressed with all the cuts and the fact that you undoubtedly know how to put them together. Again, I'm impressed.

Jerry


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

Jerry Bowen said:


> Theo,
> It's work like you show in the photos that cause me to realize how far I have to go. Needless to say, I may not understand how all the parts fit together, but I'm impressed with all the cuts and the fact that you undoubtedly know how to put them together. Again, I'm impressed.
> 
> Jerry


Nah, not really. These aren't the first of these I made, they're probably about the 5th or 6th generation. Make one, not quite right. Make another, not quite, repeat. It took awhile, but I had a mitre saw set up to make 90 degree cuts, right on. So I made a lot of my bank parts with that, and very accurate stop blocks, which also took awhile and a number of tries to get dead accurate. All told, I had 16 or 17 pieces in one of the banks. And about the time I started more on other things, the saw motor burnt up. :laugh:

The reason I can do these is because I concentrated on doing them this way for quite awhile. Anyone else would probably have made banks in a much more conventional way, but it was more fun my way. The center master is for routing the bottom of the banks. A 5"X5", very precise, square piece of 1/2" plywood fit in there - all my banks were 1/2" plywood. Then I would flip that side down, and on the top was a finger hold, and I would hold the base in place with my thumbs. Couldn't work it any other way, and doing it that way, couldn't get my fingers near the whirly parts. I'd rout the slot on one side, then the little part at the back - this was just a small indent, to tell me which was the back side of the base, because I couldn't get the two slots exactly the same distance from edge. Then rout the other slot.

The one on the left, I would tack down and rout it out. The two 'legs' would fit closely into the slots on the base. Then two sides would fit very closely into each each side. A piece would fit between the sides in the front. All glued, of course. Then a piece would be glued on top in front. On the back, the master on the right would be used to rout a part to allow the coins to drop in, and that would complete the basic money box. Then three strips would be glued on the back of the part sticking up over the box, and a couple of small pieces glued on top of them to make the coin slot, and coin chute. Then a piece would be glued on the inside, one each side, and a slightly loose piece would fit against them, to hold the coins in. The master for the top of the back has a small part protruding back, this would fit a strip of plywood in, that would fit against the piece holding the coins in. And then I would use another master to rout the outline of whatever figure would be going on the bank, usually wizards, that would be hand painted, then glued on the front of the center piece. Viola, a bank, with absolutely no metal parts in it whatsoever. 

The only 'trick' is to make whatever piece you want to accurately replicate, very accurate. Then what I do is glue that to a piece of plywood, then rout that, using the accurate piece as a guide. That then makes a 1" thick master copy. I like the 1" because it give a much better gripping area than thinner masters. 

And that's basically it. You could do the same if you just want to bad enough. I just happen to like doing it that way, but it's not rocket science.

I'm not even sure where I got the idea of my masters. I know I read years ago of a company that makes replacement parts for Lyman boats. Lyman boats have been out of business for years, but a lot of people like them, and they want to keep them up. The company got all the patterns/masters Lyman had made over the years, for all the boats they made. So if you wanted a piece of wood plank that was the third one down, for a 16' runabout, they could make you a brand new piece, that would fit like a glove. 

A lot of people use masters, or whatever they want to call them, in woodworking, when they want to duplicate a piece. All depends on what you're doing, if you need/want any or not. So, what I do is no biggie, you can do the same thing. No prob.


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

> A lot of people use masters, or whatever they want to call them


I call them templates........

They are a great time saver if you want to make multiple copies.


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## Sika Maine (Jul 29, 2018)

" ...a 13 foot long, 1,200 pound (estimated weight) Salt Water Crocodile. He was affectionately known as "Dilbeck". This was the last name of a very mean old man that worked a prison crew that cleaned the grounds and concourses throughout the zoo. Dilbeck (the man) wore a revolver, carried a shotgun, but made daily use of a long-handled, square nose shovel. With the strapped to his shoulder shotgun, Dilbeck would quite often use his shovel to beat the tar and nicotine from the prisoners that he was charged with overlooking. " 

You write entertaining fiction but fiction nevertheless. I think you watched “Cool Hand Luke” to many times. Mr. Dilbeck managed every aspect of the zoo operation for thirty-five years since it's inception and did it successfully for the city of Atlanta, on a shoestring, so to speak. There was prison 'farm' help and some of those guys were fine workers. Mr. Dilbeck did not wear a revolver, never carried a shotgun, and never carried or made use of a long-handled shovel or beat prisoners. Defamation, beyond the reach of rebuttal, is demonstrative ugliness, defamation of the deceased is an act that one does not have the guts to say to the living.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Welcome to the forum Sika, I think. When you refer to a post it's usually best to use the Reply with Quote function. This shows the post the text was in as well as the poster and the date it was posted which in this case was a number of years ago. The rules of this forum are that when you disagree with another member that you do it politely without making rude comments such as "I think you watched Cool Hand Luke too many times". Don't do that again. State the facts as you know know them and leave it at that.

I don't know that you have first hand knowledge of this particular situation but Otis should as he was an employee of the Atlanta Zoo at the time in question. I know Otis personally and have been to his house near Atlanta and seen his impressive reptile collection in person. He's not a person prone to making things up. So i'm curious what your knowledge is based on.


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## Sika Maine (Jul 29, 2018)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> Welcome to the forum Sika, I think. When you refer to a post it's usually best to use the Reply with Quote function. This shows the post the text was in as well as the poster and the date it was posted which in this case was a number of years ago. The rules of this forum are that when you disagree with another member that you do it politely without making rude comments such as "I think you watched Cool Hand Luke too many times". Don't do that again. State the facts as you know know them and leave it at that.
> 
> I don't know that you have first hand knowledge of this particular situation but Otis should as he was an employee of the Atlanta Zoo at the time in question. I know Otis personally and have been to his house near Atlanta and seen his impressive reptile collection in person. He's not a person prone to making things up. So i'm curious what your knowledge is based on.


Thank you for the advise regarding the Reply with the Quote Function. 

I state facts as I know them and have zero tolerance for the besmirching of anyone that worked with dedication for thirty-five years without a revolver, shotgun or long-handled shovel with which to beat the help and was able to do things most people would run from screaming. If my jovial reference to Cool Hand Luke was not received in the manner intended, it was albeit an honest opinion. I take the reprimand seriously and will not offer future opinions. 

My first hand knowledge is steeped in the work I did with and for Mr. Dilbeck for 20 years and having known the Curator of Reptiles and other ' long time' Herpers employed at the Reptile bldg. I am not a person prone to making things up. Thank you Cherryville Chuck.


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