# Raised panel bit/vs router hp



## Bogydave (Nov 14, 2008)

I have a bosch 1617evs, 2.25hp in my router table.
Will it swing a raised panel bit? (looking at this set)
Having never made a cabinet door (with a router), what is the best way to go?
The goal is learn to make cabinet doors for a kitchen upgrade. I have WV red Oak, (Before he past, we cut red oak, maple & cherry & a little white oak (all s2s - 3 & 4 /4, I shipped it to Alaska 12 years ago) (workbench & router table made from it so far)
I want to begin with a door for the router table cabinet, then under the workbench & table saw. (that way my learning curve mistakes are in the shop)
Anayway, bit choices:
http://www.librawood.com/100standardstylestraightraisedpanelset-1.aspx 
or back cutter bit
http://www.librawood.com/5920blargeraisedpanelbitwithbackcutterstraightpattern-1.aspx

OR should I look at the smaller vertical panel bit? (horizontal table only so far)
http://www.librawood.com/raisedpanelbits.aspx
I'm sure this will be a thread of ?s from me as I learn.
Thanks


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Dave

I know you are saying O No here he comes again.. 

Because you are going to use a 2 1/4 HP router ,that's a big low on power for the BIG bits, I would suggest you use the vertical bits...

But you can use the Big bits with your router you have, but it will take about 4 passes to get the job done..
below you will see some great deals on the bits,,,they will do the job I'm sure.. 

http://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/smarthtml/pages/raised_panel_router_bits2.html


http://cgi.ebay.com/2pc-1-2-SH-Quar...50386QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742.m153.l1262

http://cgi.ebay.com/3pc-12-w-Backcu...50386QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742.m153.l1262

http://cgi.ebay.com/3pc-Ogee-w-Back...50386QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742.m153.l1262

http://cgi.ebay.com/1pc-1-2-SH-Ogee...50386QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742.m153.l1262


===


Bogydave said:


> I have a bosch 1617evs, 2.25hp in my router table.
> Will it swing a raised panel bit? (looking at this set)
> Having never made a cabinet door (with a router), what is the best way to go?
> The goal is learn to make cabinet doors for a kitchen upgrade. I have WV red Oak, (Before he past, we cut red oak, maple & cherry & a little white oak (all s2s - 3 & 4 /4, I shipped it to Alaska 12 years ago) (workbench & router table made from it so far)
> ...


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## Bogydave (Nov 14, 2008)

Thanks bj

Will the table I have effectively rout the panel with a vertical bit? Getting the wood tight against the fence doable? 

Does using a bit with a back cut make a better door? or just easier for adjustments & less errors for the fit up?


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

HI Dave

If you make and use a easy to make jig it's very easy to use the vertical bits and it very safe way to make them..
They make a back cutter if you want to use it but you don't need to if you don't want to..the norm..

" Does using a bit with a back cut make a better door? " no,, 
it's just a bit more frightening making them,,you can get over size bearing that make it a bit safer, that's to say you remove the bearing they came with and replace it with the bigger one on the 1st.pass then put the smaller back on for the last pass,,, they do pull a ton of stock off the board... 

Undercutter Bit
http://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/smarthtml/pages/raised_panel_router_bits2.html

Bearings
http://www.mlcswoodworking.com
http://www.sommerfeldtools.com/searchprods.asp?searchstring=bearing&pagenumber=18&sort_on=&sort_by=

panels made with vertical bits ▼
http://www.routerforums.com/84195-post9.html

========







Bogydave said:


> Thanks bj
> 
> Will the table I have effectively rout the panel with a vertical bit? Getting the wood tight against the fence doable?
> 
> Does using a bit with a back cut make a better door? or just easier for adjustments & less errors for the fit up?


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## Bogydave (Nov 14, 2008)

BJ: "If you make and use a easy to make jig it's very easy to use the vertical bits and it very safe way to make them.."

Niiice jig.! Did you make the cut ( the above pics) in one pass?
I like easy & safe. Your "easy" is relative though. (My computer hard drive getting full of your jig plans  )
Thanks AGAIN! & AGAIN!

You probably have one for making the styles & rails also. ? I have a plan for a miter sled for the "cope" joint (it uses the front edge of the table as a guide), & I think I can use the fence for the "stick" joint (zero clearance insert would be good here?). (had to get the book for the correct names)  Knowing your jig is probably better, "do you have one?" 
(Haven't made it all the way through your gallery yet, few more months worth of work there)


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

HI Dave

You're Welcome

Made in one pass, but it's best to make two,,,the last one is a clean up pass, about 1/32" or less just in case you got any burn marks or little dips...but you should not.. run speed is about 14,000 rpm. or a bit less in real hard wood....use some MDF for a test board, this will let you hear the bit and let you set the speed of the router...the router has a voice so to speak it will tell you how fast to move it by the bit..  load it but don't over load it.. 

On real wood do the end grain 1st. then flip it for the long ends.\\

" (My computer hard drive getting full of your jig plans"
hahahahahaha I was going to post a new/old jig I got off the wall today but I think I will hold just for a bit,, it's hinge jig for the plunge router..

Sometimes I can put down a over load of info   and it just gets put in a bottle on the forum waters and floats around for a bit and then it's sinks to the bottom.

=======




Bogydave said:


> BJ: "If you make and use a easy to make jig it's very easy to use the vertical bits and it very safe way to make them.."
> 
> Niiice jig.! Did you make the cut ( the above pics) in one pass?
> I like easy & safe. Your "easy" is relative though. (My computer hard drive getting full of your jig plans  )
> ...


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

HI Dave

I miss this the 1st time I read it..
" styles & rails " I have many but I have stopped using them 

I did find a new way of doing it, that 's quicker and a bit essayer and they are always right on the button every time...no sanding needed..

Let me say why I stopped using them,,,,you need to use two bits and if you use the sled that makes you move the bit up or down when you put in the 2nd bit..
And it will never be right when you go for the glue up..
One will always be just a bit off and that makes the sander come out to finish the job..if you are lucky...( a inside out side of the frame thing )

Let me stop and ask if you want to know how to do it,, it takes a bit of time to put this one down and you may not want to change over to a new way...

Just let me know.. 

=======





Bogydave said:


> BJ: "If you make and use a easy to make jig it's very easy to use the vertical bits and it very safe way to make them.."
> 
> Niiice jig.! Did you make the cut ( the above pics) in one pass?
> I like easy & safe. Your "easy" is relative though. (My computer hard drive getting full of your jig plans  )
> ...


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## Bogydave (Nov 14, 2008)

bj: "Let me stop and ask if you want to know how to do it,, it takes a bit of time to put this one down and you may not want to change over to a new way..."

Since I don't have a "way" yet, 
Yes I'd like to know how to do it the "right way"

I just ordered the bits (ogee), vertical for the panel. Be 4 to 7 business days. (Cheaper than the Bosch bits I could find locally & Free shipping  ) 
Ordered the Oak Park box jig, Leevally 3/4 TG set + had to add needed stuff to lists to get free shipping. (Reid sup.l no free shipping  )
I can use Harrys test he did for learning. (Thanks harry) 
(Wife don't know how many different orders I made tonight yet, in a few days I'll be living in the shop (AKA Dave's Dog House)) 
For her new kitchen cabinets eventually, RIGHT? + It's Christmas.

Thanks


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Dave, there was a report published that stated the Bosch 1619 was actually only about 1/2 HP more than the 1617; (not sure I believe that) but 1/2 HP would make the difference in turning the horizontal panel bits. The 1617 will turn vertical panel bits like there is no tomorrow. The Whiteside bits are rated above the Bosch bits so I am sure you will be happy with them.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

HI Dave

Ist. let say this is just my way and not the only way 

1st. you need a MATCHED set of bits, like the ones below,,then you need a rubber grommet to put in the router harbor hole or in the router nut.

This a stop point for the matched set of bits,,,you need to look real hard at the bit set some cut 7/16" and some cut 1/2" deep, that tells you how wide to cut the frame parts...this is not a hard fast rule but you need to know that right off the bat..

Put your 1st. bit in the router the one with the bearing in the middle ,mark all your stock with a " X " this will always be the back side of the frame parts, all the parts you cut the X will always br UP.

Now set the bit,, you should leave about 1/8" of stock on the bottom side, now zero out the bit bearing to the fence, check it a time or two, once you are sure it's right on clamp a stop board behind the fence,, this is just a quick return to the zero point for the bit..

Now you need to get the stock ready,,, then norm for most frames is 2 7/16 wide or 2 1/2" this comes from the cut the bit puts in the stock..
Now you need to cut the stock to size,,, 4" is the golden number,, lets say you want to make a door 12" x 18" , with a 1/2" over lay ( over hang ) on the door..your 1st cut would be the 8" long....4" from 12" = 8" then you need to cut the long ones they will be 18" long.

Here's the trick, you start with 5 1/2" wide stock, then once you have the stock cut to size run it by the bit, on both ends with the " L type " push block below. the push block will let you run it by the bit true..

Once you have put the cope cut on both ends set it to one side, now comes the next trick,, put the other bit in the router BUT DON'T move the router up or down, just switch the bit out,,now the fence stop block comes into play,,once you have the bit in place put the fence back in place.

Now run ALL the parts to the door frame by the bit...once you have that done take them to the table saw and rip them to size,, aging 2 7/16" or 2 1/2" wide... you now have all the parts to the door frame,all made out of the same stock to get them to match ,,, then test fit them to make sure they are dead on...then mark them with a pencil , door 1 and so on..

Just a small note,,, all the stock must be the same size ( thickest )
============
bit set below
*
Brand new, high quality, industrial grade
*
Matched Rail & Stile with Classical Design
*
C2 Carbide Tipped - Micro grain grade provides increased strength and utmost resistance
*
Professional kitchen set


http://cgi.ebay.com/2pc-1-2-SH-Bits...50386QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742.m153.l1262

=============








Bogydave said:


> bj: "Let me stop and ask if you want to know how to do it,, it takes a bit of time to put this one down and you may not want to change over to a new way..."
> 
> Since I don't have a "way" yet,
> Yes I'd like to know how to do it the "right way"
> ...


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## vikingcraftsman (Mar 31, 2006)

*Here is a good project*

Here is a good project to get you up and running with your bits.


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## Bogydave (Nov 14, 2008)

Nice, could be a router table, night stand, lamp stand?
Projects like this are what I'd like to be able to make.
Gives me ideas. 

Thanks


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## Bogydave (Nov 14, 2008)

BJ, Thanks
got it all copied to a file. Printed steps (in big font)
Pretty straight forward & logical. Very good description bj.
Scary eh, starting to make sense to me.
Using the fence will create a bigger surface area to push against, eliminate unnoticeable movements & (larger & more stable than just the bearing)
(Hope the rousseau base plate don't move)

Couple of clarification ?s
Cut with one pass or more passes till I hit the stop board behind the fence?
Do I need a feather board or 2 for hold downs? (for the long cuts)
Is this a good place to make/use a "zero clearance" insert for each bit? (hand cut out the bearing area?)

Oak park just called, $80 shipping UPS on box joint fences OR $13 slow boat, chose slow boat, 17 days  .

Man I'm wanting the bits (hopefully sooner than the Oak Park stuff), like a kid before christmas, kinda fun to be learning new stuff. The things that a router table can do has amazed me & I'm just scratching the surface. Like a battery drill, how'd I ever live without one 

Gota go make a "BJ" Jig or 2


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

HI Dave 

You're Welcome

" Cut with one pass or more passes till I hit the stop board behind the fence? "
Right On

"Do I need a feather board or 2 for hold downs? (for the long cuts)"
Nope

" Is this a good place to make/use a "zero clearance" insert for each bit? (hand cut out the bearing area?)"
Right On, but use a forstner bit to open a hole for the bearing..just drill the hole 1st.then pull the fence into the bit this will give a real copy of the bit plus the chip breaker edge...drill a 1/4" hole in the fence base on one end ,then drop a bolt/pin in the hole and then just swing it into the bit...this will give you control you need..


Yep, that's the down side of buying anything from Oak-Park  you would thing they would put some in the USA in Mike's house so he could ship them a bit quicker...I'm sure he would like to have a truck /trailer load of them in the back yard  after all he just over the big lake..

Xmax is always a great time for getting new toys but it's hard sometimes to wait.. 

=========



Bogydave said:


> BJ, Thanks
> got it all copied to a file. Printed steps (in big font)
> Pretty straight forward & logical. Very good description bj.
> Scary eh, starting to make sense to me.
> ...


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## Bogydave (Nov 14, 2008)

Bj 
Your just full of good tips
" Is this a good place to make/use a "zero clearance" insert for each bit? (hand cut out the bearing area?)"
Right On, but use a forstner bit to open a hole for the bearing..just drill the hole 1st.

then: "then pull the fence into the bit this will give a real copy of the bit plus the chip breaker edge...drill a 1/4" hole in the fence base on one end ,then drop a bolt/pin in the hole and then just swing it into the bit...this will give you control you need..  DO WHAT!
:'( Drill a hole in the brand new top & fence 
Guess at some time I was going to have to use it as a tool. LOL

Another good tip, I think.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Dave

Yep,,, drill a hole in the table 

All my router tables have the swing fence ,, most have a threaded insert or a tee-nut in the pivot hole and a lock pin /bolt on the other end of the fence..
I will try and find a snapshot of it..

It makes it so easy to set the fence and replace a router bit....once you use one you will say the same as I WOW this is the only way to use a fence on a router table, it's almost the same as the RWS fence but no clamps needed...

====



Bogydave said:


> Bj
> Your just full of good tips
> " Is this a good place to make/use a "zero clearance" insert for each bit? (hand cut out the bearing area?)"
> Right On, but use a forstner bit to open a hole for the bearing..just drill the hole 1st.
> ...


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## Bogydave (Nov 14, 2008)

BJ
Good idea. Is there a "best location" for the pivot point? (i want to drill as few holes as possible, knowing, down the road I'll need to add others for various tasks) Or do you have various locations, ? so distance from fence to bit has a good range. I'm assuming the other end "lock pin/bolt" has a slot (x radius) in the fence base to swing "x" distance or does it lock over the table edge.

Is the table in the 1st 3 pictures your creation? or are plans available somewhere?
Looks like the "Ultimate table" Vertical & horizontal all in one. I saw you mentioned it in a previous post, but just now beginning to understand the versatility. All the features, the hardware list (with sources), instructions, tips, how to's & top plans would be a book. (add a steering wheel & you could drive it to the hardware store  )


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Dave

"3 pictures your creation?" yep, that one I came up with 

Just a great way to save room in the shop,,,

http://www.routerforums.com/31299-post8.html
http://www.routerforums.com/tools-woodworking/3037-horizontal-router-table-plans.html

Below you will see a small drawing how to set up the swing fence.

==========



Bogydave said:


> BJ
> Good idea. Is there a "best location" for the pivot point? (i want to drill as few holes as possible, knowing, down the road I'll need to add others for various tasks) Or do you have various locations, ? so distance from fence to bit has a good range. I'm assuming the other end "lock pin/bolt" has a slot (x radius) in the fence base to swing "x" distance or does it lock over the table edge.
> 
> Is the table in the 1st 3 pictures your creation? or are plans available somewhere?
> Looks like the "Ultimate table" Vertical & horizontal all in one. I saw you mentioned it in a previous post, but just now beginning to understand the versatility. All the features, the hardware list (with sources), instructions, tips, how to's & top plans would be a book. (add a steering wheel & you could drive it to the hardware store  )


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## Bogydave (Nov 14, 2008)

Well which ever tool company buys your creation will market it as "The Ultimate Table Mounted Router Platform System". You'll be famous. 
Can I have your autograph now.? 

Seriously, such innovation, it may be possible to sell the idea. You know the companies to market it to. Worth a try. Unless there's one out there already.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Dave

That would be nice but like they say nothing new under the sun ,,I'm sure someone has done it b/4 me..  it's no brainier to have the best of both worlds on one router table.. 

It's like putting sand paper on the table saw blade,,that I have been doing for about 15 years or so, it's also a no brainier for me, why not let the table saw do both jobs at one time...
I got that hint when I had my ShopSmith, and I just hated to switch things all the time..that's one machine I will never have again.. it's great if your shop is 3 ft x 4ft  Swiss Army Knife of woodworking tools....

Just for kicks, pickup a 50 tooth ,8" carb.tip saw blade ( yep that 's right a 8" blade) how many times have you ripped a 2 x 4 on a 45 deg. not to many I think ) anyway once you have the 8" blade rip up some MDF 3/4" x 6" x 24" and some plywood also,,, ,,,then cross cut the ends with the best rip blade you have in the saw..
Then take out your compass and some 100 grit sand paper, make 2 ea. 7 3/4" circles, cut them out and spay on some 3M glue on the back of the sand paper, press them on the new 8" blade, let it dry for about a hour or two, then cut out the center hole so the fit the harbor on the saw with a razor blade then put the new blade in the saw and rip some 1" wide parts from the the boards you did b/4 then cross cut the same boards,,, now look at the edges they will be clean and very smooth ..  just like you ran them over the joinery but it's a no no to run plywood over the joinery ...as you know I'm sure...the best test is to use some plywood with vernier on it..

You will be amaze how well this works, the next time you are going to make a box,etc.give the blade a work out, in time you will need to clean the sand paper on the blade or replace it, you can buy peel and stick sand paper that works great also..

You will also say why in the world do I want to buy the high price 10" blades when the lower price 8" ones work just as well..  most of the time you are working with 3/4" thick stock or less.. 


====




======





Bogydave said:


> Well which ever tool company buys your creation will market it as "The Ultimate Table Mounted Router Platform System". You'll be famous.
> Can I have your autograph now.?
> 
> Seriously, such innovation, it may be possible to sell the idea. You know the companies to market it to. Worth a try. Unless there's one out there already.


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## delirous26 (Aug 18, 2007)

my 2 cents
i have a pc-690 variable speed router i put my setting on 3 or 4 and make 4 to 5 passes and not 1 time ever had a problem bogging down the router, and the router bit that im using is a medium bit.


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## Bogydave (Nov 14, 2008)

GOT THE BITS this PM 
made 0 clearance insert, 
I cut a nice neat notch in the insert for the bearing & nut, started swinging the fence. Didn't take into account the radius from the pivot pin to the bit. cut out more for the bearing & nut. Swung again, cut out a little more at an angle on the side away from the pivot pin, on the band saw. this time it went through. I figured the little extra room around the bearing & bit will help the vacuum 
Adjusted for about 1/8 to be left on the rear of the panel with a little bead on the ogee pattern. Tomorrow I will practice some runs.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

HI Dave

When using the R & P bits the insert below works very well, you will need the extra room if the stock is just a bit thicker or thiner  that is the case most of the time...But you want the zero type when using router bits that remove the edge from the stock,,,45 deg.,T & G,bull nose,any lock joint type bit,22 1/2 deg. bit, etc. 

The angle of the dangle so to speak 

I'm looking forward to your snapshots on your test run today..

=========




Bogydave said:


> GOT THE BITS this PM
> made 0 clearance insert,
> I cut a nice neat notch in the insert for the bearing & nut, started swinging the fence. Didn't take into account the radius from the pivot pin to the bit. cut out more for the bearing & nut. Swung again, cut out a little more at an angle on the side away from the pivot pin, on the band saw. this time it went through. I figured the little extra room around the bearing & bit will help the vacuum
> Adjusted for about 1/8 to be left on the rear of the panel with a little bead on the ogee pattern. Tomorrow I will practice some runs.
> ...


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## Bogydave (Nov 14, 2008)

1st cabinet door frame.




















Line up height of the bits most difficult part. 




















Very important to put the "X" on the side that is alway up !!! Know why? see pic







( didn't notice on the 1st pass, tried to fix on second HA HA, Made me PO'd & laugh at the same time. LOL called myself names)

2 of the joints are a little loose, I made 2 passes for the cope, noticed second cut depth a little off so I ran it again. 
I think its operator error, not the same down pressure, maybe I should have used a feather board for down pressure until i build some feel.
I did cut one of the stick passes in one cut but noticed some tear out in a few locations along the panel grove. Ran the other 3 in 2 passes. Bosh 1617 evs on speed just below # 4 (about 19k rpm) bit is 1-5/8 diameter. Never did feel like I loaded the router so maybe I could bring the RPM up above 20k. Red Oak planed to 3/4"
??s Would more speed help eliminate some of the tear out so the one pass cut is OK?
The bit height adjustment, shafts are different lengths. I put a grommet below the collet & they both hit it. (above pics - of bit in router & are hitting the grommet). Any tips? (I ran test cuts in a 3/4 pine board till alignment seemed right)
Right methods for the cuts? (sacrificial board between 90 deg jig, probably should have taped it in place)














Usable for the router cabinet door. It was easier than I expected but still need to make more door so experience will come & quality will hopefully improve. 
Tips, ideas & constructive criticism of any kind appreciated.

Was football Sunday & !!!!"Steelers" !!!** were playing, so not allot of time in the shop today. (real football harrysin)


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

HI Dave

Looks good, it will take a door frame or two to get it down 
Once you get it down right you will use it for making all your cabinets not just the doors..then once you get it down you will find the T & G way to make cabinets...and face frames...

The rubber grommet trick only works if the cutters are a Matched set...
see the link I posed for a cheap set but they are matched.

The grommet and the matched set take the guess work out of it..but the real key is not to move the router up or down once you use the 1st. cutter,always start with the bearing in the center of the cutter, use wider stock than you need just in case you get a bit of rip out, that's why it's best to use 5 3/4" wide stock , it's makes it easy to cut across the end grain then rip the stock to size, in that way if you get some rip out you can rip that part off.. 

Feather boards don't work to well but a nice true 2 x 4 /MDF clamped to the fence works well and one clamped to the table top works well for the pattern bit.

Just a note about the cheap R & S bit set, I have many brands of the R & S sets Freud,CMT,Rockler,etc. the cheap bit set will stand up to about 25 door frames b/4 you will need to replace them but at 25.oo bucks it's well worth the price..you can get them in many profiles... 

Speed of the bit, it comes down to the stock you are using, the bit and the router will tell you what speed to use...they have a voice so to speak.

Always run a test some test stock b/4 you start the real frame...check it for burn marks,how clean the cut is,load the router but don't over load it.
Heat is the big killer of bits, once you run the test board check to see if the bit is hot, if so you want to let it cool down just a little bit for the next pass...

Don't rush it ,, and you will come out with some great frames every time.


=======



Bogydave said:


> 1st cabinet door frame.
> View attachment 17331
> View attachment 17332
> View attachment 17330
> ...


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## Frank Lee (Nov 29, 2008)

To Bodydave--- "Life just is" is better than no life, take it as humor, that is the way it's ment. Frank Lee


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## Bogydave (Nov 14, 2008)

I agree, life's great, cause the alternative sucks


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