# Replacing worn-out casements using router table...



## nickds1 (Jun 29, 2012)

Hi - I have some worn-out opening oak casements in an highly exposed window - the joints are shot and so is the double-glazing, so I'd like to remake them from scratch rather than try to patch them. The frame is fine.

I have a 1/2" CMT router set in a table, and being lazy, was hoping that I could find a suitable cutter/technique to do the corner joints - the detail on the inside of the window is simple - an ogee - i'll then need a flat rebate (rabbit?) to hold the glazed unit and a way, most importantly, of making the corner joints to account for the ogee etc. - ideally, i'd like these joints to be the full depth of the timber (about 2") and a double tenon - a single would do. 

I'll be treating this as a storm window with appropriate weather strip sealing... probably Aquamac - guidance welcome!

Any pointers to how I might achieve this would be much appreciated - I know little about routing techniques using a table beyond the basics and the table was a recent present from my understanding SWMBO - I have been woodworking for years though....

Thanks

Nick


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Nick; My custom sash supplier uses a shaper rather than a router, but this vid clip seems to show that a router, with the purpose designed bits, works just fine.
Rockler Reversible Sash & Door Assembly Router Bit - YouTube
Cheers,
-Dan


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## nickds1 (Jun 29, 2012)

DaninVan said:


> Nick; My custom sash supplier uses a shaper rather than a router, but this vid clip seems to show that a router, with the purpose designed bits, works just fine. Rockler Reversible Sash & Door Assembly Router Bit - YouTube


Yup I was hoping to do it that way but I can't find any suitable cutters in the UK (I'm in England)


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

nickds1 said:


> Yup I was hoping to do it that way but I can't find any suitable cutters in the UK (I'm in England)


Hi Nick 

Finding the sash ovolo and matching sash scribe is pretty easy. The other part of the job requires a rebate and bearings. That way you have a rebate cutter which can be used for other tasks and isn't just dedicated. It also gets round the possible problem of depth of cut required for the beading + double glazing unit which may be too much for the set with the rebate cutter. Assuming that your DG unit is a modern 20 to 28mm thick one (the current standard BTW is 4/20/4) you'd require a rebate cutter about 38mm (1-3/4in) high. That in conjunction with hardwood and a profile cutter is a big ask for a portable router to handle in one piece. A 2-1/2HP (1850 watt) router isn't as powerful as a 2-1/2HP spindle moulder by any means (much less torque). The glazing beads are worked separately on the edge of a pre-planed board then ripped off with the table saw, although a portable rip saw with a sharp blade will do at a pinch.

As to Aquamac, that's a German product made by Schlagel and I don't even know if it's available in the USA with building standards being so different to here in Europe. The one you need for windows is Aquamac 63 and it comes in brown or white - a quick ring round some local joinery shops should source you the small amounts you need (a lot of people use it) and it will be cheaper to buy a small length this way than buy a massive trade pack which you'll only ever use a fraction of. It does require a specific cutter to install it, like this one

Regards

Phil

Who's also in the UK


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## nickds1 (Jun 29, 2012)

Phil - That's great info - I'm actually about 5 miles from Staplehurst where the Wealden Tool folk are - I'm off to Axminster's Sittingbourne shop tomorrow to pick up the table - I intend to put a CMT1 1/2" router in it.

I'd seen the Trend Aquamac tool and was going to get one - Wondering where to get the Aquamac 63 (brown) from around Tonbridge/Tunbridge Wells area - was also looking for a joinery timer merchant locally for the the oak - JW Timber in Marden looked ok.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

3pc 1/2" SH Window Sash/Glass Door R&S Router Bit Set | eBay

I'm sure you can buy from eBay

http://www.freudtools.com/images/manuals/Window_Sash_Rail.pdf

==**
" For Canadian shipping, it's $12.00 for USPS First Class mail International.

I will ship to worldwide. Please email me to get Shipping cost before you bid. "
==


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Hi Nick



nickds1 said:


> I'd seen the Trend Aquamac tool and was going to get one


Like this one? The Trade range is probably a better bet if you're only doing a couple of dozen windows - the main range tool is a lot more expensive



nickds1 said:


> Wondering where to get the Aquamac 63 (brown) from around Tonbridge/Tunbridge Wells area - was also looking for a joinery timer merchant locally for the the oak - JW Timber in Marden looked ok.


The reason I suggested a joinery shop as opposed to a merchant is that joinery shops are probably going to be willing to sell you a few metres at a time (the full trade packs are about 300 metres at about £1/metre!). I don't use much these days, but when I do I pop over the hill to see a guy who has council contracts and uses hundreds of metres a month. Unfortunately I'm about 250 miles north of you.....

Regards

Phil


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## nickds1 (Jun 29, 2012)

Well, I got a new router table & router today - now just need the cutters for this baby.
The rebate is 1.25" so a bit of work to do there - edge is a standard 0.5" Roman Ogee - again pretty straight-forward.

Stile&Rail probably - wondering how to do the corners to make them really strong...


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

nickds1 said:


> Stile&Rail probably - wondering how to do the corners to make them really strong...


Hi Nick

Unfortunately I don't think the type of stile and rail set which creates a short stub tenon will really give you a strong enough joint for exterior storm windows because they only make a short stub tenon with insufficient glueing surface to withstand prolonged heavy weathering. My take as a joiner is that you really need to make the casements up with either mortise and tenon joints or bridled joints. You might get away with loose tenons, but they aren't much liked by the joinery trade in the UK on account of a bit of a flaky track record in imported joinery products in the past (windows and doors). Same is true of dowels. You can't use ironmongery otr screws to strengthen your corners either because you'll almost certainly need to plane any replacement casing into the opening to match any warping and out of square caused by building settlement

The rail and stile cutters I linked to will allow you to work the profile and counter profile as well as the top face of the tenon. A rebate or large straight cutter (used in a table with a fence) is used to work the rebates. An appropriate straight cutter, say 25 to 35mm in diameter, can be used to work the other side of the tenon. The open mortise slot can be worked using a long straight cutter. I'd recommend a good quality exterior grade glue, such as Cascophen (i.e. a UF or urea formaldehyde) glue - far better for exterior use than exterior grade PVA or polyurethane (PU, Gorilla) glue. 

I'll try to find some appropriate exploded drawings to illustrate what I'm talking about

Regards

Phil


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## nickds1 (Jun 29, 2012)

Phil - your input is really appreciated. I bought a decent table from Axminster along with a new router (Kreg table + Trend T11 - Axminster is SOOOOO dangerous!) - I chose the Trend as it can be table mounted and still micro-adjusted from above - fitted it last night with an NVR switch - very pleased - got a deal as they were display items (last ones left in shop). Means I keep the CMT1E (which is almost identical to the Trend and made in the same factory) for hand use.

I hear what you say about the standard stile&rail sets - as an engineer, I was not at all happy with the joint depth they produce, hence my looking for alternatives. If my rebate is 1.25" front-to-back and about 5/8"th deep, I was going for the T1714-1/2 with the correct bearing (I'll buy a range) and do a few passes to get the full depth & width.

Now just need the cutters. T1360-1/2 with a T1365-1/2 will deal with the ovolo/scribe and the T1714-1/2 with bearings for the rebate (unless you suggest otherwise).

I'll take your advice on the glue and the bridled joint - can you suggest cutters for those? That is my one remaining concern.

Many thanks


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

http://www.freudtools.com/images/manuals/Window_Sash_Rail.pdf
==


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## nickds1 (Jun 29, 2012)

Well, I got almost all that I needed ...

I paid a visit to Wealden Tool Company (they are only a few miles away from me) - extremely helpful & nice people. When I explained my problem they told me about "flat ovolo" cutters they have for use when replacing older casements which allow you to put thicker double glazing in whilst preserving the visual proportions of the frame. Neat idea.

I'm now waiting on their T1362-1/2 to come back into stock...

Can anyone recommend a suitable (UK available) UF glue that is available to non-trade in reasonably small quaitity for use on just a couple of windows? 

Cheers

Nick


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

nickds1 said:


> Can anyone recommend a suitable (UK available) UF glue that is available to non-trade in reasonably small quaitity for use on just a couple of windows?


Hi Nick

As you already know Axminster why not get yourself some Cascamite from them - £3.76 for 125gm. I've used Cascamite for years. Keep it inside a plastic ziplock bag in a cool, dry, dark place and it should stay good for 18 months plus (I think it says 1 year in the instructions). A couple of tips about using it; when handling the powder and mixing the glue wear a mask (BTW this applies to all powdered resin glues and is a precaution against inhaling the stuff by accident. a sprayers mask with a filter cartridge is preferable) and also disposable gloves (easier to clean your hands), use ionised water from Boots or the like not distilled water from garages (which sometimes containes traces of acid) and not stuff from the tap (where I live it has way too much iron in it and can stain oak), the pot life of UF glues is at least 40 to 60 minutes at 18°C so you can take your time doing a glue up, between sessions drop your brush into a jamjar of water, cramps should be left on for 12 to 24 hours but don't squeeze the joints to death - firm pressure only lest you starve the joints.

BTW I found some cracking illustrations of the type of joint you may be attempting here. That's a haunched tenon, but you may be satisfied with noy haunching the tenon and instead just producing a bridle joint. Main thing is the upper illustration shows how the profile and counterprofile relate to the tenon. Hope you find it of use

Glad you liked Wealden. I've used them for years by mail order and they've always given me good service.

Regards

Phil


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## nickds1 (Jun 29, 2012)

Thanks for the reply...

I do a bit of boat work and was asking around - none of the boat-repairing-types use Cascamite any more (and haven't for years) - they use Balcotan which is far more waterproof and supposed to be even easier to work with.

How long would you expect an exposed oak/cascamite sash to last?

Thanks

Nick


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

nickds1 said:


> I do a bit of boat work and was asking around - none of the boat-repairing-types use Cascamite any more (and haven't for years) - they use Balcotan which is far more waterproof and supposed to be even easier to work with.
> 
> How long would you expect an exposed oak/cascamite sash to last?


Hi Nick

Different strokes? Go with whatever you feel happiest with - some folks with deep pockets would ecommend West Epoxy. But then they aren't trying to sell a product and make a living. 

How long it will last probably depends as much if not more on what type of finish is applied and how often it is recoated. I've worked on painted softwood sashes in exposed conditions which have done 100 years because they were properly designed and made and had been repainted regularly - equally I've seen modern hardwood windows which are shot in 20 years (one on a near door neighbours house, top hung casements, F/E hardwood - they've never varnished their windows once in the last 18 years and the joints are now shot so he's out there this morning slapping Sadolin all over them. As if....). If your joints are a good fit and you recoat with lacquer from time to time you should get well over 20 years all being well

Regards

Phil


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