# Spindle vs router // Vacuum vs T-Track



## Bernie_72 (Jan 1, 2021)

I'm working through options on my ShopSabre 23 quote. The sales rep is highly recommending purchasing a 220v spindle to upgrade the 3 HP 110v router that it comes with. The spindle upgrade cost is very expensive, over 1/3 the price of the entire unit, but the upgrade cost is the same whether I do it with the initial purchase or down the road.

I found a few old threads on the forum discussing spindle verses router. It seems that the spindle will run much quieter, will be able to handle longer routing sessions better and generally will have more power. I think eventually I'll install a spindle but I'm leaning towards just going with the router for now.

I'm also considering the vacuum table option. It's about a $600 upgrade to get the vacuum table and the 220v vacuum pump verses getting the standard T-Track table. I'm comfortable with the extra $'s for the upgrade but I'm curious if people that have been routing for a long time find a vacuum table to be a better choice than a simple t-track setup. 

If I skip the spindle upgrade for now the $'s I'd spend on that would fund the vacuum table and pump as well as their 4th axis add-on which I'd really like to have for profiling furniture legs and other items. 

I'd appreciate any feedback.


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## TimPa (Jan 4, 2011)

in my opinion, the best $$ spent would be on a spindle, atc/ftc if you can swing it. the spindle runs every time you run the cnc, so would be appreciated every minute. 
a vac table is mostly good for sheet goods, and even then takes a good set up to work well with. clamps, screws, tape/superglue are the hold downs used by most hobbyist and low level production folks. 
i bought the 4th axis also, and haven't installed it yet after 2 years - just haven't got there yet...


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## ger21 (Feb 10, 2019)

If your capable of doing it yourself, you can get a Chinese spindle and VFD for $300-$400.

On a small machine, you might be better of making vacuum pucks or pods, with a small pump. These can work better for small parts, and you can DIY it for $200-$300.


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## kp91 (Sep 10, 2004)

I am saving up for a spindle. If only for the noise difference.


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## UglySign (Nov 17, 2015)

Cry once, do the spindle & phenolic vac top. Better to have and not need than to need and not have.
I've had my vac table almost 3 years and haven't used it yet. But it's there if I need it and it will be soon.


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## Rusty Nesmith (Feb 1, 2020)

One thing to consider with the vacuum table is if you are going to cut pieces completely out then you will need a spoil board under it. The vacuum table will only hold the spoil board and you will still have to attach the top board to the spoil board some how.


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## BalloonEngineer (Mar 27, 2009)

The rotary can do many things, but the software to handle some carves can be a substantial addional cost. Vectric's products can handle things that are basically round and has reliefs, but not anything that cuts below the centerline or has undercuts, so things like a Cabriole leg cannot be done in Vectric.
The shopsabre is a fine machine, but you can get a much larger machine for the same price if you look at Avid, probably get a full 4' x 8' or at least 4' x 4', including a spindle for less. It is also a fine machine, and expandable, should your needs change in the future. I personally think that unless you are doing sheet stock (full sheets won't fit on the smaller ShopSabre) vacuum is not a necessary feature. Very valuable for sheet stock (holds warped stock flat) if you go with a full size machine. I have cut far more projects that would not fit on 30 x 40 than I ever expected to (my machine is 4' x 5').


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## ger21 (Feb 10, 2019)

Rusty Nesmith said:


> One thing to consider with the vacuum table is if you are going to cut pieces completely out then you will need a spoil board under it. The vacuum table will only hold the spoil board and you will still have to attach the top board to the spoil board some how.


Vacuum pulls through the spoilboard and holds the sheet and parts down. You don't have to attach anything, that's the beauty of a vacuum table.




> Very valuable for sheet stock (holds warped stock flat)


Yes and no. Warped stock can be extremely difficult to hold down with vacuum, especially with hardwoods. Sheet stock will be held flat, IF you can place it on the table with the convex side up. It's it's warped two ways, (like Pringles), good luck.


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## Rusty Nesmith (Feb 1, 2020)

ger21 said:


> Vacuum pulls through the spoilboard and holds the sheet and parts down. You don't have to attach anything, that's the beauty of a vacuum table.


so would you have to have a spoil board that is full of holes?


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## Bernie_72 (Jan 1, 2021)

Rusty Nesmith said:


> so would you have to have a spoil board that is full of holes?


I didn't understand this either but after looking at a few videos on-line I understand what Ger was saying. The vacuum is strong enough to actually pull air through the MDF spoilboard without drilling any holes in that spoilboard. An example of airflow through the MDF spoilboard starts at 4:56 in this video:


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## Bernie_72 (Jan 1, 2021)

BalloonEngineer said:


> ...The shopsabre is a fine machine, but you can get a much larger machine for the same price if you look at Avid, probably get a full 4' x 8' or at least 4' x 4', including a spindle for less. It is also a fine machine, and expandable, should your needs change in the future...


The base price of $7,495 for the ShopSabre 23 seemed pretty reasonable to me given the quality of the machine. As I started adding in a few things like the spindle upgrade, bench, material height touch pad and some starter bits the price with shipping quickly jumped to just over $14,000. I'm starting to realize that is a bit too much to spend for such a small machine,

I had looked at AVID last year but hadn't really considered them. Just the way their website was laid out and not having a phone number listed didn't leave me with a lot of confidence. After you mentioned them yesterday I spent a good part of the day digging into them and I looked at a bunch of on-line reviews from people that bought their systems. I'm not really finding much in the way of negative feedback on AVID machines. All the feedback I've seen on-line has been positive.

I priced out a 5' x 5' pro CNC kit with a 3HP spindle, NEMA 34 control system, table legs, corner/Z height pad, VCarve Pro and a starter pack of bits and the price came to $12,872.56 shipped to my house. I like the idea of a 5' x 5' machine because when I do use plywood it's almost always 5' x 5' baltic birch. It's also nice that if I want a bigger machine at some point in the future I can expand this out. 

I need to work on my shop layout to see if I can fit a bigger machine in. If that works out I may go with Avid over ShopSabre.


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## ger21 (Feb 10, 2019)

Rusty Nesmith said:


> so would you have to have a spoil board that is full of holes?


No, it pulls right through the MDF spoilboard.


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## Afish (Jan 30, 2021)

Im new but can say without a shadow of a doubt the spindle is 100% worth the upgrade. Im amazed at how quiet this thing is. I cant even hear it running over the sound of the air from my dust collector and Im not talking about the sound from the DC motor since the DC is in another building. Just the sound of the air being pulled through the ducting is the loudest part of running the cnc. Super happy with the spindle choice.


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## J0seph (Dec 2, 2011)

I have a 5 x 8 cnc router with a 4hp spindle. I designed and made my own vacuum hold down table. I do glue my spoil board to my table grid. I use 3/4" light weight mdf for the spoil board. I apply glue to the grid and lay the mdf on it, cover it with plastic and let the vacuum clamp it until it sets. When I change the spoil board, I simply use my spoil board bit to remove any remaining parts. I glue it down so that placing full sheets is much easier. I just have to position one sheet at a time. This has worked well for me for about eight years now. I have six zones on my table.
I am semi retired. I own a small (3500 sq. ft.) cabinet shop.


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## Afish (Jan 30, 2021)

After just going through the vacuum table process I am in agreeance with Joseph. I have both t track and vacuum table so I made T nuts to fit into the T track and screwed the spoil board down to the grid table with nylon screws but that does limit how much I can plane of the spoil board before hitting the screws. Im hoping it will be awhile. 

For Joseph, what type of glue are you using? and what material is your vacuum grid made from? Mine looks like some type of plastic or phenolic, so Im not sure what type of glue would work best. I was thinking either silicone or epoxy.


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## J0seph (Dec 2, 2011)

Afish said:


> After just going through the vacuum table process I am in agreeance with Joseph. I have both t track and vacuum table so I made T nuts to fit into the T track and screwed the spoil board down to the grid table with nylon screws but that does limit how much I can plane of the spoil board before hitting the screws. Im hoping it will be awhile.
> 
> For Joseph, what type of glue are you using? and what material is your vacuum grid made from? Mine looks like some type of plastic or phenolic, so Im not sure what type of glue would work best. I was thinking either silicone or epoxy.


I used 1" waterproof mdf for the vacuum grid. I have a top shop as well and we fab a lot of Corian. The waterproof mdf i what we use for build up under the Corian. It has worked very well. I investigated using some sort of plastic but that was way too expensive. I decided to "try" the water proof mdf and it has served well. I use water down titebond 2 with about 25% water and use a short nap roller and roll it on the grid. It does not take much to hold it.


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## Afish (Jan 30, 2021)

J0seph said:


> I used 1" waterproof mdf for the vacuum grid. I have a top shop as well and we fab a lot of Corian. The waterproof mdf i what we use for build up under the Corian. It has worked very well. I investigated using some sort of plastic but that was way too expensive. I decided to "try" the water proof mdf and it has served well. I use water down titebond 2 with about 25% water and use a short nap roller and roll it on the grid. It does not take much to hold it.


Thanks, I guess I will just have to experiment a little


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## DsKnees (Mar 4, 2021)

Bernie_72 said:


> I'm working through options on my ShopSabre 23 quote.



Did you choose to buy the machine? Or are you going with something else? I am working on making a decision myself. I need a machine for making precise 3D molds.

Options I am considering are no stand, (I'll make my own), the spindle, phenolic vacuum top (w/ vacuum) and t-slots, and the upgrade dust skirt. That puts me just over $14k, or $15k when you add the tax!

I am pretty sure I will go with the spindle, because everyone seems to agree that the spindle is important. And I don't feel comfortable taking my chances with a cheap imported spindle of unknown origin.

The vacuum table seems to make it easy to use the entire 30x40" capacity. Having t-slots only seems useful for some things, but I expect it would also mean giving up some of the usable space (leaving space around the perimeter for clamps). So I figure having both would be ideal.

I am still struggling a little with the value comparison between the 23 and bigger machines, but I think I'm mostly settled now. I am figuring out the "base" price of every machine is deceptive and should be ignored. I was dreaming of the Pro 404 machine...I could really use more gantry clearance, and the pro has 12"! I configured one that would cost me $35k, without vacuum. Adding the vacuum table to that machine would add ~$5k. And having that vacuum would require me to upgrade my electrical service in my garage. And there's shipping. And I would need to hire a forklift or skid steer to set it up. That "starting price of $25,000" turns into $50k+ pretty quick! 

So I decided the 23 is a fair deal. Not cheap, but no quality machine is going to be cheap. I haven't come across anyone who has complained about buying one of these. And I can't find anyone trying to sell a used one either.


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## Bernie_72 (Jan 1, 2021)

DsKnees said:


> Did you choose to buy the machine? Or are you going with something else? ....


I decided to go with an AVID machine. I have a quote for a 5'x5' machine with a 3HP spindle that is around $13,000 with some extras. I also have a quote for a 5'x10' machine with the same configuration that is just over $14,000. Those are both under my max budget so I looked into adding a ATC from CNC Depot. They have a package that bolts right onto the AVID. I mentioned that to my contact at AVID who has been working with me on a few configurations. He mentioned that AVID is coming out with an ATC later this fall so right now my plan is to wait until that's out.

I am working on changing the layout of my shop right now. I know I can fit a 5'x5' machine in there. I think when I'm done with the layout change I'll be able to make room for the 5'x10' model. That would give me room for the ATC tool holders as well as enough space to setup a vertical table.


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## Bentley (Mar 22, 2021)

Hi. This may be a bit late to post. But if you want to do ANY highly accurate work the Avid won’t give you the results the ShopSabre will. I was on the fence and have purchased the ShopSabre 23. Yes it is a bit more expensive but it is one heck of a solid build. I contacted Avid and their repeatability is only 0.005” versus the ShopSabre which is 0.001”. I need repeatability accuracy. Just my 2 cents worth.


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## difalkner (Jan 3, 2012)

Welcome to the forum! Head over to the introduction area and tell us a little about yourself. And we do like photos, so show us your shop, CNC, tools, projects, etc. whenever you're ready.

David


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## DsKnees (Mar 4, 2021)

Bernie_72 said:


> I decided to go with an AVID machine. I have a quote for a 5'x5' machine with a 3HP spindle that is around $13,000 with some extras. I also have a quote for a 5'x10' machine with the same configuration that is just over $14,000. Those are both under my max budget so I looked into adding a ATC from CNC Depot. They have a package that bolts right onto the AVID. I mentioned that to my contact at AVID who has been working with me on a few configurations. He mentioned that AVID is coming out with an ATC later this fall so right now my plan is to wait until that's out.
> 
> I am working on changing the layout of my shop right now. I know I can fit a 5'x5' machine in there. I think when I'm done with the layout change I'll be able to make room for the 5'x10' model. That would give me room for the ATC tool holders as well as enough space to setup a vertical table.


There should be a separate category in this forum for garage/ shop organization! My shop has been 100% torn apart for quite awhile now, but is now slowly beginning to resemble a usable work space again.


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## DsKnees (Mar 4, 2021)

Bentley said:


> Hi. This may be a bit late to post. But if you want to do ANY highly accurate work the Avid won’t give you the results the ShopSabre will. I was on the fence and have purchased the ShopSabre 23. Yes it is a bit more expensive but it is one heck of a solid build. I contacted Avid and their repeatability is only 0.005” versus the ShopSabre which is 0.001”. I need repeatability accuracy. Just my 2 cents worth.


Mind if I ask what you are using your machine for? 

I just made the down payment for mine this morning! However, I can't be too excited, since I still have to wait 2-3 months before I see it. (I live ~1hr away from their facility, so I have the luxury of just picking it up when they say it is ready! That will be fun.)

I intend to use mine for mold making. I am designing 2 part molds, so that precision and repeatability was something I couldn't cheap out on. I need the 2 mold halves to line up within a couple thou.

Oh, and what specs did you get? I ordered the spindle, vacuum table, phenolic table top w/ t-slots, and the better dust skirt. And I passed on the stand. I'm building my own.


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## difalkner (Jan 3, 2012)

DsKnees said:


> I intend to use mine for mold making. I am designing 2 part molds, so that precision and repeatability was something I couldn't cheap out on. I need the 2 mold halves to line up within a couple thou.


I worked in plastics for about 12-13 years; injection, blow, and rotational molding. We had a tool and die shop that was amazing so I saw hundreds of molds. What will you be making (or can you say)?

David


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## DsKnees (Mar 4, 2021)

difalkner said:


> I worked in plastics for about 12-13 years; injection, blow, and rotational molding. We had a tool and die shop that was amazing so I saw hundreds of molds. What will you be making (or can you say)?
> 
> David


I'm making knee pads, hence my name...D's Knees. No need to be super secretive. The design has a carbon fiber shell that is covered with a urethane rubber. The design is patent pending, and I'm hoping to have something to show off pretty soon. I mean, I have the current prototypes that are great, which I use nearly every day, but I have already drawn an improved version. Now I just need a CNC router to machine the mold. 

(Hiring someone to machine the mold for me would cost me $1,350, and I'm not 100% sure I drew it right....and that's just for the first mold of something like 20 molds I will end up making, assuming everything goes to plan.)

What I was saying about machining accuracy before--the over-mold urethane layer is 1mm (0.040") thick around the edges, so even a small inaccuracy in the alignment of the two molds will be visible. An error of 0.004" is 10% of the total thickness, after all.


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## old55 (Aug 11, 2013)

bump


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## difalkner (Jan 3, 2012)

DsKnees said:


> I'm not 100% sure I drew it right....and that's just for the first mold of something like 20 molds


What material will you use for the molds? It would be a good idea to begin a new thread about your machine, the molds, your process, etc., without revealing anything you feel needs to be protected.

David


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## Bernie_72 (Jan 1, 2021)

Bentley said:


> Hi. This may be a bit late to post. But if you want to do ANY highly accurate work the Avid won’t give you the results the ShopSabre will. I was on the fence and have purchased the ShopSabre 23. Yes it is a bit more expensive but it is one heck of a solid build. I contacted Avid and their repeatability is only 0.005” versus the ShopSabre which is 0.001”. I need repeatability accuracy. Just my 2 cents worth.


I think you have to consider that AVID's stated 0.005" accuracy claims are for a kit that has to be assembled when you receive it. People that have done a good job assembling and aligning these machines are claiming 0.002" or better accuracy. 

I won't know until this fall what AVID's ATC pricing will be but I suspect it will be in-line with the current CNCdepot ATC pricing. I suspect a 5x10 AVID pro configuration with ATC will come in around $17,500. ShopSabre's cheapest 5x10 ATC config comes in well over $40,000. I'm willing to give up a little accuracy for something that is half the price.


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## Bentley (Mar 22, 2021)

DsKnees said:


> Mind if I ask what you are using your machine for?
> 
> I just made the down payment for mine this morning! However, I can't be too excited, since I still have to wait 2-3 months before I see it. (I live ~1hr away from their facility, so I have the luxury of just picking it up when they say it is ready! That will be fun.)
> 
> ...


Hi. I make cheese boards, plaques and need accuracy. Also did you get the Avid?


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## Bentley (Mar 22, 2021)

Bernie_72 said:


> I think you have to consider that AVID's stated 0.005" accuracy claims are for a kit that has to be assembled when you receive it. People that have done a good job assembling and aligning these machines are claiming 0.002" or better accuracy.
> 
> I won't know until this fall what AVID's ATC pricing will be but I suspect it will be in-line with the current CNCdepot ATC pricing. I suspect a 5x10 AVID pro configuration with ATC will come in around $17,500. ShopSabre's cheapest 5x10 ATC config comes in well over $40,000. I'm willing to give up a little accuracy for something that is half the price.


i understand the money saved part. You do realize that probably 99% of the people out there are gonna lie to back their purchase of whatever they get. When I do my work I use a certified micrometer for everything I do. Also I’m only quoting what Avid told me. I was all set to get the 4x4 pro build until they told me that. I have an Axiom Precision AR6 basic and it is 0.004” off under on everything I cut. That is my back up machine. So in my case why would I get something that is approximately the same + or -. I will get their electronics kit if the Axiom ever craps out though. Great deal on a quality electronics kit.


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## JohnnySabre (Mar 25, 2021)

Hey What is up with ShopSabre and their delivery time I paid on Dec. 30 and then they tell me 4 Months?

I had to build my own to get the smaller signs out.
I hear good things about them but starting to think different. I would not have purchase from them if they told me up front.



Bentley said:


> Hi. This may be a bit late to post. But if you want to do ANY highly accurate work the Avid won’t give you the results the ShopSabre will. I was on the fence and have purchased the ShopSabre 23. Yes it is a bit more expensive but it is one heck of a solid build. I contacted Avid and their repeatability is only 0.005” versus the ShopSabre which is 0.001”. I need repeatability accuracy. Just my 2 cents worth.


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## ger21 (Feb 10, 2019)

JohnnySabre said:


> Hey What is up with ShopSabre and their delivery time


Pandemic?


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## old55 (Aug 11, 2013)

Welcome to the forum @JohnnySabre


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## DsKnees (Mar 4, 2021)

Bentley said:


> Hi. I make cheese boards, plaques and need accuracy. Also did you get the Avid?


I was saying I had literally just made a down payment on the shopSabre.


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## DsKnees (Mar 4, 2021)

JohnnySabre said:


> Hey What is up with ShopSabre and their delivery time I paid on Dec. 30 and then they tell me 4 Months?
> 
> I had to build my own to get the smaller signs out.
> I hear good things about them but starting to think different. I would not have purchase from them if they told me up front.


They told me 8-12 weeks, and I just ordered. They didn't misrepresent that for a second!

Apparently a lot of people are buying machines right now. 

If you need freight shipping, that will add to the time. I live about 1 hr away, so I will just pick it up when it's ready. That'll probably save 1-2 weeks.


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## DsKnees (Mar 4, 2021)

difalkner said:


> What material will you use for the molds? It would be a good idea to begin a new thread about your machine, the molds, your process, etc., without revealing anything you feel needs to be protected.
> 
> David


I will start with MDF or HDF, to keep costs done while I am still prototyping. I will likely switch to some type of tooling board when I am making production molds. I don't know if I will use a polyurethane style, or epoxy. If I choose epoxy, I can probably laminate over it without having to add primers that can change the shape of the mold. I know it is more expensive, but it may be worth the extra cost in time saved and detail preserved.

I understand that treating MDF with a thin coat of epoxy works pretty well to seal the surface, but I don't know how much detail I can get and how well it will be preserved while preparing the mold to laminate.


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## difalkner (Jan 3, 2012)

Are there leader pins in your mold design for cavity and core? If so, what are those made of and if you made them, how so? Just curious...even though it's been a long, long time since I was around the molding process it still interests me.

David


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## ger21 (Feb 10, 2019)

DsKnees said:


> I understand that treating MDF with a thin coat of epoxy works pretty well to seal the surface, but I don't know how much detail I can get and how well it will be preserved while preparing the mold to laminate.


I guess it would depend on the type of detail you are talking about. You can get a LOT of detail with epoxied MDF. Cut the mold with the Z axis up about .01", then cover it with a LOT of epoxy, so it can penetrate into the epoxy. Then go back and cut it again at the finished height. It'll have a hard, smooth surface like a hard plastic.


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## DsKnees (Mar 4, 2021)

ger21 said:


> I guess it would depend on the type of detail you are talking about. You can get a LOT of detail with epoxied MDF. Cut the mold with the Z axis up about .01", then cover it with a LOT of epoxy, so it can penetrate into the epoxy. Then go back and cut it again at the finished height. It'll have a hard, smooth surface like a hard plastic.


That's a good idea! Do you use an infusion resin? Or a wood preservative type resin?

The possible issue that comes to mind is preserving alignment. I suppose I just leave the part on the machine, and leave the machine turned on while the epoxy cures?


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## DsKnees (Mar 4, 2021)

difalkner said:


> Are there leader pins in your mold design for cavity and core? If so, what are those made of and if you made them, how so? Just curious...even though it's been a long, long time since I was around the molding process it still interests me.
> 
> David


At the moment I am pretty much just making things up as I go. I don't have any mold making experience to work from. (I appreciate any input I can get from people with experience!)

I don't have any pins in the design right now. My current (hand made) mold uses a couple pyramid shaped lugs for registration.

Your question did jump-start my thought process. I basically dismissed alignment pins. I was worried about the carbon part contacting the top mold and getting contaminated with mold release. But then I realized I could use a long pin that is either tapered or has a shoulder. This would solve the problem.

A related question is clamping, another issue I have left open. Right now I'm just using vice grips as campls. But a pin that is designed as a shoulder bolt would allow alignment and clamping. It would be substantial for a pin, maybe 1/2"? 

(Luckily I have a brother that fancies himself to be a machinist, so I can probably convince him to make custom pins for me.)


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## difalkner (Jan 3, 2012)

DsKnees said:


> But a pin that is designed as a shoulder bolt would allow alignment and clamping. It would be substantial for a pin, maybe 1/2"?


Injection and blow molding machines typically rely on hydraulic toggle mechanisms to reach and maintain full clamping pressure, usually rated in tons. The leader pins usually have grooves for grease and fit into bushings with a very tight tolerance to keep alignment as precise as possible. The reason for the grease is that these molds made of tool steel and are run hot enough to facilitate the even flow of the molten plastic into all parts of the cavity, meaning the molds are running hot and the grease keeps them from seizing during operation. Depending on your mold size I don't know why you couldn't use shoulder bolts for leader pins and I would say 1/2" is the bare minimum you'd want, larger would likely be better. Just make certain your bushings are sufficiently sized to maintain good registration between mold halves for core and cavity.

David


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