# Guys in BC -- Analysis pls.



## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

There have been several sawmill fires in British Columbia, Canada of late. Some of them have been attributed to the harvesting of trees killed off by the pine beetle. These trees are considered to be dryer and dustier than normal wood harvesting.

I live within 20 km of 4 sawmills and know some of the people quite well. I've been discussing sawmill dust control with some of the maintenance and technical people at some of the mills. In none of the mills in my area is the stoechiometric level allowed to be even approached. How is it that the mills in BC are allowed to?

So, back to our world, given that mills that may have some of the most sophisticated monitoring equipment available, if they can't keep a handle on dust, how can we?

The challenge now becomes how to determine when dust reaches a dangerous level for our health or combustion? Any suggestions would be appreciated


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Hey, Ron; the mills are pumping out as much beetle killed Pine (and Spruce) as they can handle. The cause of the first explosion and fire still hasn't been positively identified, although now after this second one in what, two months(?), suspicion is as you say falling heavily on the buildup of fine powder from the tunnels the beetles make in the wood.
From the video clip shot at a so far undamaged mill, on the news last night, the talc like dust was piling up everywhere...that means all over the motors, electrical switch gear, bearings, and conveyors. There was a _lot_ of it!!! I'm not sure they were referring to airborne dust so much as the extreme fire hazard from this buildup on all surfaces.
Out here, the 'B.C. Liberals' have basically made the Forestry sector self monitoring. There's no money in shutting down a mill for housecleaning as opposed to milling lumber 24/7... I'm guessing the WCB and Insurance companies think otherwise.
CTVNews.ca Photo Gallery -- B.C. Sawmill Explosion
Just my opinion.


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## The Warthog (Nov 29, 2010)

Don't these mills have dust collection systems? I know we did 20 years ago when I worked at a furniture manufacturer. Someone used to come and buy our sawdust from us, too.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Lakeland Mills in Prince George, BC - member of Sinclar Group
...Oops. I'm guessing that'll be coming down soon.
Lakeland Mills Ltd - 1385 River Rd., Prince George, BC | ProfileCanada.com

(My condolences and sympathies go out to the families, and survivors. From all reports some of the survivors are horribly injured.)
Heads should roll at WCB!


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

A lot of the cleanup can't be done safely unless you shut the machinery down. General cleanup is often reserved for weekends. I am pretty sure that there is some dust collection but I am not sure that dust control is an option for some of the machines such as primary breakdown because a lot of the particles being thrown are fairly large and sometimes broken pieces of log are being tossed with it. It would be hard for the average person to believe how much sawdust is produced in a major mill. The old Riverside F.P. sawmill in Lumby, B.C. was one of the fastest (stud)sawmills in North America and they ran logs through at the rate of 5.5'/sec.

Dust lying in piles is not explosive. But if something stirred up a bunch of dust and tossed into the air that would be. As Dan said, the jury is still out as to what happened.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

The Warthog said:


> Don't these mills have dust collection systems? I know we did 20 years ago when I worked at a furniture manufacturer. Someone used to come and buy our sawdust from us, too.


Hi Roger:

This is the part I can't understand. There are two streams of wood waste collection, sawdust for products like MDF and chips for chip board, often used in sub flooring. Old mills are constantly being closed here and new mills are opening up with some serious dust collection. How is it that BC is not at the same level?


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> A lot of the cleanup can't be done safely unless you shut the machinery down. General cleanup is often reserved for weekends. I am pretty sure that there is some dust collection but I am not sure that dust control is an option for some of the machines such as primary breakdown because a lot of the particles being thrown are fairly large and sometimes broken pieces of log are being tossed with it. It would be hard for the average person to believe how much sawdust is produced in a major mill. The old Riverside F.P. sawmill in Lumby, B.C. was one of the fastest (stud)sawmills in North America and they ran logs through at the rate of 5.5'/sec.
> 
> Dust lying in piles is not explosive. But if something stirred up a bunch of dust and tossed into the air that would be. As Dan said, the jury is still out as to what happened.


Hi Charles:

But, dust lying in piles is equally as dangerous as that thrown into the air. There was a small portable mill not far from my home. It was there for about 5 years. When they removed the equipment there was little sign of chips or dust on the footprint. That said, we have another outside mill and there the guy has no respect for anything and lets the dust spray around and pile up everywhere. I would expect that he'll have a fire soon. Wet sawdust is as bad as sawdust in the air. Wet sawdust cooks like manure and it doesn't take much for it to catch fire.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Hi Dan:



DaninVan said:


> (My condolences and sympathies go out to the families, and survivors. From all reports some of the survivors are horribly injured.)
> Heads should roll at WCB!


Absolutely!

That said, what can we learn from all of this? After all, we're a miniature version of what's happening there.

I keep going back to my original problem. Is there some method that we can use to "measure" or gauge our exposure to dust? 

I tried using masking tape thinking that dust laden air could be caught by the tape and that used as a method of measurement. I thought I could compare an exposed piece of tape to one that wasn't. That didn't work. I tried the Tyndall Effect; that is like a beam of sunlight that shows all the dust in the air. That didn't work either. Professionals use fan driven filters that "capture" the dust in the air and they use a microscope to measure that. There's the Dylos. 

I'm also using water vapour to "capture" more and finer dust but I can't measure how effective that is. 

There's got to be some method that we can use to "measure" or approximate how much and how fine the dust is in our shops. I'm open to any and all suggestions.

I'll be uploading another update to the dust controll article soon.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Ron; it's more complex than a comparison with a normal mill operation would suggest. Something like 23 mills have closed in the last couple of years, largely because they chewed through the available timber cut available to them. The two big mills that have been destroyed may _not_ be rebuilt unless they can be guaranteed an uninterrupted log supply. As Charles said, these high tech mills go through logs at a phenomenal rate, and unlike the big Hemlock and D. Fir logs, they don't get much usable lumber from individual Interior Spruce and Pine trees. 
This whole very dead and dry, with digested bug dust, log supply, is a whole new problem that the industry hasn't had to deal with in the past (prior to say the last 5 years or so). 
http://www.pinebeetle.ca/pictures/originals2/animation-bctrees.gif


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Ron. dust lying in piles is not as dangerous as dust thrown into the air. Take the sawdust from your table saw and pile it on the ground and set it on fire. First, it may be moderately hard to light and very quickly it will start to smolder. Take a handful of that sawdust and toss it over a flame and you will possibly lose your eyelashes and eyebrows.
When you talk about a small portable sawmill you are not talking about the confined spaces that exist around a large permanently located sawmill. Not apples to apples or oranges to oranges.
I am not saying that what happened is acceptable but this may be a new problem because of changing circumstances never encountered before. Never before have the Interior BC mills had this much dry wood to saw. As mentioned the jury is still out. Knee jerk reactions may not be beneficial. I would suspect that all the operating sawmills are being especially vigilant now.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Hi Charles:



Cherryville Chuck said:


> Ron. dust lying in piles is not as dangerous as dust thrown into the air. Take the sawdust from your table saw and pile it on the ground and set it on fire. First, it may be moderately hard to light and very quickly it will start to smolder. Take a handful of that sawdust and toss it over a flame and you will possibly lose your eyelashes and eyebrows.


Yup, been there, got the singed eyebrows to prove it;-)



Cherryville Chuck said:


> When you talk about a small portable sawmill you are not talking about the confined spaces that exist around a large permanently located sawmill. Not apples to apples or oranges to oranges.


Only to point out the complete disregard for anything dealing with safety.



Cherryville Chuck said:


> I am not saying that what happened is acceptable but this may be a new problem because of changing circumstances never encountered before. Never before have the Interior BC mills had this much dry wood to saw. As mentioned the jury is still out. Knee jerk reactions may not be beneficial. I would suspect that all the operating sawmills are being especially vigilant now.


You would think that as soon as operators recognized the problem they'd be proactive and attempt to quickly effect a solution. Sounds like bad management to me.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

DaninVan said:


> Ron; it's more complex than a comparison with a normal mill operation would suggest. Something like 23 mills have closed in the last couple of years, largely because they chewed through the available timber cut available to them. The two big mills that have been destroyed may _not_ be rebuilt unless they can be guaranteed an uninterrupted log supply. As Charles said, these high tech mills go through logs at a phenomenal rate, and unlike the big Hemlock and D. Fir logs, they don't get much usable lumber from individual Interior Spruce and Pine trees.
> This whole very dead and dry, with digested bug dust, log supply, is a whole new problem that the industry hasn't had to deal with in the past (prior to say the last 5 years or so).
> http://www.pinebeetle.ca/pictures/originals2/animation-bctrees.gif


But, what I'm finding most unbelievable is that they seem to be ignoring the problem rather than dealing with it. It seems that this is nothing but an insurance scam. Exhaust your log supply as cheaply as possible, when you cannot find raw material start cutting bug infested material, let the dust pile up and pollute and before you have worker side effects, kill them off with a big fire, and let the insurance company re-imburse you for your "losses."

Sounds like greed gone wild.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Ron, the infected trees _are_ the timber supply! We're talking about an area that is infested comparable to the size of the State of California.
Nothing can be done in the way of reforestation until the dead and dying trees are cleared. 
Come on out here for a holiday; see it for yourself.
This picture shows a clearcut that has been replanted, next to infected forest. For some reason, the beetles don't attack very young trees.
http://www.for.gov.bc.ca/hfp/mountain_pine_beetle/images/Jul1-8_roll1_Williams_Lake_MPB1.jpg


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Ron; you also fail to acknowledge that these are Union operations, from the logging to the milling. You blame the owners but let the workers off without a hint of culpability.
Are you suggesting that the Unionized workers conspired in their own tragedy?! 
Logging has killed over 600 workers in the past decade, in B.C., and I believe 5,000 injured (we're not talking slivers here).


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

DaninVan said:


> Ron, the infected trees _are_ the timber supply! We're talking about an area that is infested comparable to the size of the State of California.
> Nothing can be done in the way of reforestation until the dead and dying trees are cleared.
> Come on out here for a holiday; see it for yourself.
> This picture shows a clearcut that has been replanted, next to infected forest. For some reason, the beetles don't attack very young trees.
> http://www.for.gov.bc.ca/hfp/mountain_pine_beetle/images/Jul1-8_roll1_Williams_Lake_MPB1.jpg


Do you mean that, without the pine beetle, BC can produce 5.5' per second sawn lumber per mill for eternity? I'm quite familiar with clear cutting and selective cutting. I knew that BC had lots of lumber but that much? I see the trucks go past my place every day in summer, fall and winter and I marvel at how much lumber there is in the forests. I wonder how long it will last.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

DaninVan said:


> Ron; you also fail to acknowledge that these are Union operations, from the logging to the milling. You blame the owners but let the workers off without a hint of culpability.
> Are you suggesting that the Unionized workers conspired in their own tragedy?!
> Logging has killed over 600 workers in the past decade, in B.C., and I believe 5,000 injured (we're not talking slivers here).


Hi Dan:

It has been my experience that management gets the work force that they deserve. Cooperative management gets a cooperative work force. God-like management gets god-like union leadership. I have been examining the roles of managers and their "accomplishments" and find them paid disproportionately to the benefit they bring. That said, unions do nothing but create strife to augment their necessity. Long gone are the days when unions were there to protect workers.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Ron, I think there may be some confusion here over the Coast logging and the Interior logging. This epidemic is specific to the Interior forest industry (Spruce and Lodge pole Pine). *Basically East of the Coast Range and now moving over the Rockies into Alberta.
The Coast industry cuts primarily D. Fir, Hemlock, and Cedar. I normally pass _at least_ 2 fully loaded logging trucks on the Highway, on my 10 minute drive up to Sechelt. Doesn't matter what time of day. 
(* The Coast is warm and wet; the Interior is very cold in the winter and pretty dry year round...almost desert like in the Summer.)

Another point that you brought up; why the rush. The timber has no market value about five years after dying. It still will need to be removed, however. A lot of this diseased timber is on Crown Land and the Gov't wants the stumpage revenue.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

allthunbs said:


> Do you mean that, without the pine beetle, BC can produce 5.5' per second sawn lumber per mill for eternity? I'm quite familiar with clear cutting and selective cutting. I knew that BC had lots of lumber but that much? I see the trucks go past my place every day in summer, fall and winter and I marvel at how much lumber there is in the forests. I wonder how long it will last.


The rate of logging in BC is set at harvesting 1/100th of the available timber resource per year. I.E. a 100 year cycle. Barring things like the pine beetle epidemic it would have gone on for centuries at that pace. As Dan pointed out, you need to remove the existing forest before you can start a new one. Also, all that dead pine represents a huge fire hazard. The trick now is to get as much of it off as possible before it is no longer any good, approximately 3-5 years. In the meantime, as little green wood will be harvested as feasible.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

*Nope.*



allthunbs said:


> Do you mean that, without the pine beetle, BC can produce 5.5' per second sawn lumber per mill for eternity? I'm quite familiar with clear cutting and selective cutting. I knew that BC had lots of lumber but that much? I see the trucks go past my place every day in summer, fall and winter and I marvel at how much lumber there is in the forests. I wonder how long it will last.


That's 5.5' per saw, not per mill. It doesn't have to last for eternity. The forests have been, and continue to be replanted. A lot of wood being cut is now second growth timber.


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## The Warthog (Nov 29, 2010)

This story was on CTV news tonight. It appears that the safety regulations in some other provinces are not in place in BC, as regards dust.


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