# Setups to rout a wide and long area?



## csscouter (Feb 21, 2015)

Hi, all,

I have 21 - 2x6 SFS white incense cedar boards that are to be used as decorative cross-members on a long trellis.

These boards are all 36 inches long, identical in profile. I need to rout a square-U-shaped area in the 2" (actually 1 7/16 inches as milled) direction of each board, that's about 6 inches wide. This U-shaped-area of each board will fit "over" the top of the trellis, and I intend to screw each into the top of the trelllis with 2 - 1/4 inch x 6 inch exterior screws.

I'm thinking that I could rout all of these together in one session by clamping them all together (I do have enough long clamps to do this [new "on sale" purchase from Rockler!]). My question is about the best way to rout what would then be a U-shaped-area that's 6 inches wide and now 21 x 1 7/16 inches long (a little more than 30 inches).

I don't have a router table, but I do have a (new!) router. I don't have a table saw or any other nice tools like that - yet...

Any suggestions on setups would be most appreciated!


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

I'm not 100% sure I understand what you want but here goes with what I think it is. You can clamp all the boards together edge to edge or flat to flat.Then mark across all of them the 2 lines that will define the outer edges of the channel. Put the bit you are going to use in your router and set the bit so that it just touches or just barely misses. Put it down so that the edge of the bit just touches the line on one end. Rotate it a bit to make sure you are just up to the line and not over it. Clamp a straight edge guide against the base of the router and go to the other end of the line and do it all over again. Do the line on the other side the same way. Then go back and double check the starting points.

I'm not sure just how deep you want to go but only go as deep as the diameter of the bit is wide each pass. Start in the middle and work your way out to the edges.


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## csscouter (Feb 21, 2015)

Chuck,

Thanks for the guidance. You did interpret my need properly - I intend to clamp the boards together face-to-face (or "flat to flat") so that all of the 1 7/16-inch sides are facing "up", for a total length when clamped together of about 20 inches.

Your points make sense. So, I rout the outer slots first (the depth will be 1 1/2 inches), in multiple passes for each slot so as not to do too much at one time. I will be using a 1 inch straight bit with a 1/2 inch shank. ...and I know I need to pay attention to not making a climbing cut, so I'll run the router from right to left...

How does one replicate the depth for each of the final passes? Do I use the plunge base on my Bosch 1617 kit and set the maximum depth the same for each final pass? That seems to make the most sense to me...

Tim


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## Gaffboat (Mar 11, 2012)

I would make a simple dado jig set up expressly for this job. A piece of 1/4" mdf or ply gives you something for the router to ride on without falling into your wide dado, and fences keep the router in a straight line. The side guides run along the outside of the boards and keep the guide square. You can just use a 1/2" straight bit.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

if you hog out the dado w/ your circular saw before you router...
and use Oliver's jig...


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## csscouter (Feb 21, 2015)

Oliver,

I'm stricken mute by the diagrams! How in the world did you do that? It looks like they were custom-made for my question? Unbelievably helpful...

Thanks so much to both you and Chuck here.

Chuck's suggestion about routing the slots to mark the outside edges makes a lot of sense, and combining that with the custom dado jig is perfect. 

You guys are amazing.

Tim


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## csscouter (Feb 21, 2015)

Stick,

Good idea. That seems like a lot of cuts with a circular saw, at 1/16 inch per pass.

Is it generally a better idea to get rid of this much waste wood with a saw before routing? I don't have any experience here...

Thanks,

Tim

BTW, someone mentioned in one of my conversations (maybe it was Cherryville Chuck) that you also live in Colorado. I'm in Aurora - anywhere close to me?


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## AndyL (Jun 3, 2011)

csscouter said:


> Good idea. That seems like a lot of cuts with a circular saw, at 1/16 inch per pass.


Make your saw cuts about 1/8" apart or so, and the bits that are left between the cuts will snap away easily. Hitting them at a shallow angle with a hammer is a quick way to do it. Then you can flatten the bottom of the area with the router - or with a chisel if you prefer.


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## csscouter (Feb 21, 2015)

Can do, Andy - so it seems that getting rid of waste wood with a saw is "better". Is it better because it's typically faster, or because it preserves expensive router bits longer, or maybe some other reason?

Thanks,

Tim


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## MT Stringer (Aug 15, 2012)

csscouter said:


> Oliver,
> 
> I'm stricken mute by the diagrams! How in the world did you do that? It looks like they were custom-made for my question? Unbelievably helpful...
> 
> ...


That Ollie is smarter than the average bear!


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

csscouter said:


> Stick,
> 
> Good idea. That seems like a lot of cuts with a circular saw, at 1/16 inch per pass.
> 
> ...


 sortta south westerly out in the mountains... about 170/80 road miles...

it certainly is...

you can hog material here by cutting kerfs w/ a circular saw...
cut a kerf.. move the saw over a 1/4" or so.. cut another kerf...
be careful not to cut too deep nor too wide...
break or chisel away the ribs left by the saw.. don't do it w/ the router... bad things can happen... 
also, try not to get ahead of yourself in any operation... no short cuts allowed...


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## Gaffboat (Mar 11, 2012)

Stick486 said:


> you can hog material here by cutting kerfs w/ a circular saw...
> cut a kerf.. move the saw over a 1/4" or so.. cut another kerf...
> be careful not to cut too deep nor too wide...
> break or chisel away the ribs left by the saw.. don't do it w/ the router... bad things can happen...
> also, try not to get ahead of yourself in any operation... no short cuts allowed...


You can make a simple variation of the jig above to make it easy to cut the saw kerfs. Just line the edge of the jig to the inside of your line and make your cut. Move it over, cut again, rinse and repeat.

(It's a rainy day and these are just Sketchup quickies. )


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

I like it Oliver..


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

If I'm on a roll here and still understand you correctly, you want to rout out a 6" wide trough (?). If so, you will have to start in the dead center and work your way out to the edges or you won't have anything holding the router up. I do also recommend that you kerf it nearly to finished depth with a skill saw but only break off a few sections in the middle first, rout those out to finished depth in one pass and then break off the outer sections and rout them. You have to remember that with a 1" bit and somewhere around a 6" diameter base that you will only have about 2 1/2" of base sitting on something at most so you don't want to get too far ahead of yourself here or you'll have too little wood holding the router up and you won't be able to keep it from tipping.

By the way, in handheld position you would work from left to right. Right to left is on a router table (which would eliminate all the precautions I just mentioned). The easiest way to be sure which direction you should be going is by thinking about cutter travel. The actual cutting part of the bit has a bevel towards the backside and a flat face. Router travel should always be in the direction that flat is facing.


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## csscouter (Feb 21, 2015)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> If I'm on a roll here and still understand you correctly, you want to rout out a 6" wide trough (?)...


That's correct, Chuck. The diagrams that Oliver created show my intent exactly.



Cherryville Chuck said:


> I do also recommend that you kerf it nearly to finished depth with a skill saw but only break off a few sections in the middle first, rout those out to finished depth in one pass and then break off the outer sections and rout them...


Stick made mention that routing thin sections that had been created with kerfs could cause some problems when routing. I'm thinking that doing so might throw out large chunks of thin wood when they break off as the router gets to them. Do you see that as a problem?



Cherryville Chuck said:


> You have to remember that with a 1" bit and somewhere around a 6" diameter base that you will only have about 2 1/2" of base sitting on something at most so you don't want to get too far ahead of yourself here or you'll have too little wood holding the router up and you won't be able to keep it from tipping...


I'm mindful of that - thanks for the heads up there. I'm gonna rout this several times over in my mind before I actually build the jig and do the work!



Cherryville Chuck said:


> By the way, in handheld position you would work from left to right. Right to left is on a router table (which would eliminate all the precautions I just mentioned). The easiest way to be sure which direction you should be going is by thinking about cutter travel. The actual cutting part of the bit has a bevel towards the backside and a flat face. Router travel should always be in the direction that flat is facing.


Since in handheld mode, the cutter is rotating clockwise, I thought I understood that I needed to have the descending edge of the bit (descending into the wood, that is...) scoop into the fixed part of the wood, the edge that I want to leave behind. To me, that means if the cut is being made on the side of the router blade that's closest to me, clockwise rotation would mean going from right to left would cause the blade to scoop the wood from the edge being finished, up the curve of the blade on the wood and expel the chip away from me.

I thought I understood that a climbing cut does the opposite - it descends into the waste part of the wood as it heads towards the edge I want to leave behind, and in so doing risks "climbing up and over" the waste part of the wood.

Now, if I were holding the router still in handheld mode, and I were cutting an edge where the far side of the router blade is doing the cutting, then I'd reverse the direction. In that situation, I thought I'd need to go from left to right, as the scooping of the blade against the edge I want to leave behind would happen from the left to the right.

Do I have that wrong?


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## csscouter (Feb 21, 2015)

Thanks once again, Oliver - I've seen Sketchup, but no experience yet. It will come with time.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

csscouter said:


> *Stick made mention that routing thin sections that had been created with kerfs *could cause some problems when routing. I'm thinking that doing so might throw out large chunks of thin wood when they break off as the router gets to them. Do you see that as a problem?
> 
> Since in handheld mode, the cutter is rotating clockwise, I thought I understood that I needed to have the descending edge of the bit (descending into the wood, that is...) scoop into the fixed part of the wood, the edge that I want to leave behind. To me, that means if the cut is being made on the side of the router blade that's closest to me, clockwise rotation would mean going from right to left would cause the blade to scoop the wood from the edge being finished, up the curve of the blade on the wood and expel the chip away from me.
> 
> ...


the thin pieces break off and become projectiles...
if a larger piece were to break off it could jamb and break the bit and then you risk getting seriously injured...
got a torn up ear to prove what happens when a piece of carbide lets go... it's like getting shot......

see the attachment on climb cutting...

build Oliver's jigs and you will have a router guide and support for the router in one fell swoop...

if the clamp on guide is to the left of the router you move the router away from you...
it it's on the right.. pull the router to you...


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## csscouter (Feb 21, 2015)

Much, much appreciated, Stick. I have some reading to do tonight.

The diagram you provided is in line with my understanding about the direction the router should go, but of course the picture is worth more than my klunky words.

I'm so glad I joined this forum, and I'm so glad for all of the advice you've provided.

Tim


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Tim; a 1 1/2" -2" deep cut with a circ. saw is a walk in the park. Not a lot of 'routering' going on on a framing job; nobody has that much time. It's saws and chisels and git er done. Framing square for a guide and make the two out side cuts then make the middle portion go away.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

DaninVan said:


> Tim; a 1 1/2" -2" deep cut with a circ. saw *is a walk in the park.* Not a lot of 'routering' going on on a framing job; nobody has that much time. It's saws and chisels and git er done. Framing square for a guide and make the two out side cuts then make the middle portion go away.


that's for the energetic..
let's go w/ easy as cake and pie instead...


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Tim those chunks of wood being broken loose by the router are either projectiles or they get bound up in between the pieces that aren't cut and toss the router around. Neither situation is a good one.

If you look at Stick's diagram the wood is always on the left side of the router if you were holding the router and following it around those curves. As you said, the cutter is turning clockwise with a handheld router which means that the flat face of the cutter is facing into the cut direction. I have a horizontal router setup that allows me to router the lower side of a board or the top side of a board. When routing the lower side the feed direction is right to left the same as a router table. But when routing the top side of a board the feed direction reverses and goes from left to right. But in both cases (and all cases) I'm feeding towards the flat face of the cutter. That rule will never let you down. It's much easier than trying to remember all the separate cases.

So in the case of you routing out a trough, when doing the left side you'll push the router away from you because the flat side of the cutter will be facing into the uncut wood. When doing the right side, provided you are still standing in the same place, you'll pull the router towards you because the flat face of the cutter is facing the uncut wood on that side.


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## csscouter (Feb 21, 2015)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> ...But in both cases (and all cases) I'm feeding towards the flat face of the cutter. That rule will never let you down. It's much easier than trying to remember all the separate cases.
> 
> So in the case of you routing out a trough, when doing the left side you'll push the router away from you because the flat side of the cutter will be facing into the uncut wood. When doing the right side, provided you are still standing in the same place, you'll pull the router towards you because the flat face of the cutter is facing the uncut wood on that side.


I'm with you, Chuck, and the rule makes sense. It's taken me a bit to realize that by "flat side of the cutter", you mean the flat side of the cutter(s) that is/are not contacting the wood. That's an important realization.

Thanks,

Tim


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## csscouter (Feb 21, 2015)

DaninVan said:


> Tim; a 1 1/2" -2" deep cut with a circ. saw is a walk in the park. Not a lot of 'routering' going on on a framing job; nobody has that much time. It's saws and chisels and git er done. Framing square for a guide and make the two out side cuts then make the middle portion go away.


Thanks, Dan - appreciate your input. 

I think I've got the concepts here. I understand your idea, I think: Make saw cuts along the lines that Cherryville Chuck suggested in his page 1 response (at http://www.routerforums.com/general-routing/60401-setups-rout-wide-long-area.html#post560353 - don't yet know a better way to refer back to a "Permalink"...), and then use those as the "marks" beyond which I dare not go lest I cut stuff I don't want to cut.

The difference seems to be that Chuck suggested using the router to cut the do-not-go-past-me grooves, and you're suggesting using a saw kerf. 

I really liked Oliver's modified (additional?) fixture idea for cutting straight lines in the waste area. A properly-constructed fixture like that seems really easy to make and use and can provide the straightedge I need to follow Chuck's lines.

Interesting. Follow Chuck's lines using Oliver's fixtures to cut Dan's kerfs to follow Stick's advice to cut my wood to make Susan happy. This is truly a community project.

Thanks,

Tim


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Tim I would be just as happy with saw cuts at the edges as router cuts. There is often more than one good method for doing any job, just depends on your tools and experience and preferences and all the advice given was good advice. As far as the help from the forum members, it reminds me of something Red Green used to say on his TV show, usually when he he was talking about how to slip something past our wives. He said "We're all in this together and I'm pulling for you."


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Tim; here's where the concepts go their separate but both valid ways:
You need to determine for _your_ particular project just how precise the cuts need to be. You said this was for an exterior screen? That's not a particularly precise application, as opposed to say a jewellery box. Something like a screen could be completely built in an afternoon. If the lap joint isn't accurate to 1/32", let alone a couple of thousandths of an inch, _nobody will ever notice or care_.
If you're making furniture, yes, it will matter. It's pretty subjective, and after it's all said and done, you're the guy that has to be pleased with the final product.
If time doesn't matter, sure, use the router; good practice!


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## collinb (Sep 10, 2014)

csscouter said:


> Hi, all,
> 
> I have 21 - 2x6 SFS white incense cedar boards that are to be used as decorative cross-members on a long trellis.
> 
> ...


Perhaps use a table saw with a dado to decrease the number of passes.
Use a bed. Add a block for the start and stop positions.
Several could be cut at the same time.
Just add a sacrificial piece on the back end to alleviate edge problems.
It would be both quick and precise.
Less clumsy than clamping and making a block or jig.
Quicker than a hand saw.


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## csscouter (Feb 21, 2015)

Chuck and Dan - thanks once again for the advice.

Dan, I agree completely about assessing the need for precision, and you're right - this doesn't require absolute precision.

I am planning to make both of the jigs (fixtures? I'm not sure of the difference...) that Oliver suggested, as I can benefit from both. I plan to use the saw kerf fixture to get a clear line at the edge of both sides of the trough (Chuck's accurate word) and then will rout a groove up to those kerfs. That gives me practice with both approaches.

Nice weather here this afternoon, so I'm going to take a half-day off and work on the top beam of the trellis to get it set up for these decorative cross members. Tomorrow I'll do another half-day-off and build the jigs and hopefully get the routing done - first time with the router, as you both can surmise.

Of course, I'll share what I've learned here since you're involved...!


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## csscouter (Feb 21, 2015)

collinb, thanks for the input. I don't have a table saw so my options - at this point in my nascent woodworking hobby - are limited to a router, a circular saw, and a lot of very good advice. At the moment, I feel pretty confident I can get this job done with those tools.

Tim


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Most important, Tim; work safely!!! Neither of those power tools have a sense of humour...
(Oh yeh, and just _enjoy_ the woodworking...  )


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## csscouter (Feb 21, 2015)

Will do, Dan. I've had fun discussing this, and now it's time to walk the walk.


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## jeff.fredrick (May 20, 2010)

Just be careful of the dust from white cedar it's very toxic.

Good luck with the project Jeff


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## collinb (Sep 10, 2014)

csscouter said:


> collinb, thanks for the input. I don't have a table saw so my options - at this point in my nascent woodworking hobby - are limited to a router, a circular saw, and a lot of very good advice. At the moment, I feel pretty confident I can get this job done with those tools.
> 
> Tim


Anyone who knows how to use the term "nascent" is either an academic or watches Big Bang Theory. Maybe both.


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## csscouter (Feb 21, 2015)

c3jrf said:


> Just be careful of the dust from white cedar it's very toxic.
> 
> Good luck with the project Jeff


Thank you, Jeff - appreciate the advice. 

I tend to look like an alien when I work on projects - hearing protection, eye protection, respirator. 

I used the router for the first time yesterday to get the feel of it, and I was fully outfitted, a bit to the shock of the neighbor's young girls!

Tim


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## csscouter (Feb 21, 2015)

LOL, collinb!

Hope I didn't isolate myself from this nice circle...! I'm neither an academic nor do I watch TV, so the term's placement in my mind is, as Churchill once said, a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma.

Thanks...

Tim


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Keep wearing the safety gear Tim. Don't worry about looking funny.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

,...except when the girls are around. They've all got 911 on speed dial, and itchy trigger fingers.


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## csscouter (Feb 21, 2015)

To All You Great Advisers:

I haven't dropped off the sides of the earth. The weekend came and went without completing my project, although I did manage to make and test the 2 jigs for which Oliver provided the visuals. Work intervenes during the week (a good thing from multiple perspectives - I like what I do).

I learned several things, though.

One - I cannot believe how many shavings routers produce. They're all beautifully nipped away from my toxic white cedar (I'm fully lung-protected, Jeff and Chuck...), but they were all over the place. I don't have a dedicated workshop or dust collection system, and I didn't foresee purchasing a dust collection hood for the router, but that's now on my list. It's typically pretty low humidity here in Colorado, and I even had / have shavings on the walls and ceiling. It's like coming home from a beach vacation - there's always some sand, somewhere you didn't expect.

Two - Stick, the visual of the correct direction to rout, and Chuck's guidance with his mnemonic about routing in the direction of the back of the blade, helped immensely. Even so, I wound up accidentally doing a climbing cut. I was bear-hugging my router so nothing untoward occurred, but one definitely can feel the difference between climbing and whatever non-climbing is (descending?).

Three - collets hold bits snugly! After I was done with my tests, I loosened the nut on the collet, reached in to take the bit out, cut my finger (a little - an instructional nip) on the blade while pulling it, loosened the nut some more, and it came out. 

Anyway - all is well, and this coming weekend seems most likely for my project finale.

Thanks all for your community.

Tim


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## greenacres2 (Dec 23, 2011)

csscouter said:


> LOL, collinb!
> 
> Hope I didn't isolate myself from this nice circle...! I'm neither an academic nor do I watch TV, so the term's placement in my mind is, as Churchill once said, a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma.
> 
> ...


That was Churchill?? I always thought it was Batman in the old TV series!!

On the collet, the Bosch 1617 (and others) uses a self-releasing collet. You'll note that when you loosen the nut, it spins freely for a turn or two then you need the wrench a second time, which easily releases the bit. I've got a different marque that does not self-release...another world!!

earl

earl


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## nsecrist (Jan 13, 2015)

*csscouter - I live in Aurora, CO*

Hi Tim,

Sorry I have to post this as a message on the end of your thread. I am new to the Router Forum and haven't had 10 posts yet, so it won't let me private message you.

I am also from Aurora, CO - it is nice to know there are other woodworkers on this forum from my area.

Send me a PM and we can chat or my email is [email protected]

Thanks

Nate


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## csscouter (Feb 21, 2015)

*We are done!*

All,

Not the Royal "We", but all of us since this became a community project...

You guys absolutely rock!

Thanks to your generous, voluminous, and capable advice, I was able to finish my project this weekend!

I've attached photos in project order, although since this is my first posting of photos I'm not sure what order they'll appear in. The time-sequenced order, by image name, is as follows:


Trellis before project
Cross members using Oliver's saw jig
Cross members cut for rapid stock removal
Cross members roughed out
Oliver's jig for a wide channel
Router in place for finishing channel
Finished channel
Final result

Some lessons learned:

The advice to get rid of the volume of unneeded wood as efficiently as possible was great (thanks, Cherryville Chuck, AndyL, and Stick486. I opted to use my circular saw to do that, after making a jig that Oliver suggested to quickly make straight cuts. That worked very well, and I was able to break off the resulting strips of wood by wedging a screwdriver in the slots and twisting.

The router guide worked perfectly. I'm a convert to the idea of making things to make things. I actually made a thing (the circular saw jig) to make a thing (the router jig) to make a thing (the slots in my cross pieces). That's meta meta woodworking, seems to me.

As I was putting the cross members into place on the trellis, I discovered that the variations in the long top piece (2 - 12 foot 2x6's, with a lap joint for an overall length of 24 feet) would have caused the cross pieces to vary in angle from front to back. Summoning up my inner DanInVan, I used some pinewood shims that I had for door installation to level them all out. They're on the top of the trellis, which is 9 feet high, so no one outside of this forum, my wife, my father-in-law, and anyone you tell will know they are there.

Thank you all so much for your assistance with this thing. Now, on to masonry saw work in the front yard for a while...

Tim


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

that came out better than nice....


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## csscouter (Feb 21, 2015)

Thanks for the comment and the "Like", Stick. If you look carefully, you'll see the 2 wisteria plants we placed in the center of each open area, for which the entire trellis was created. If the wisteria grows as "advertised", we'll have a big, espalier-ed, beautiful vine in several years.

If not, I'm going to have a chat with the wisteria family tree to figure out what went wrong - and then we'll plant again!

Tim


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## Gaffboat (Mar 11, 2012)

Well done, Tim! Move to the head of the class. :yes4:


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## csscouter (Feb 21, 2015)

Oliver,

Your advice and those great Sketchups were instrumental here. Thanks so much for taking the time to make them for me. 

I did decide not to rout all 21 pieces at the same time, because the length of the resulting mass of wood was unwieldy. I wound up doing them in 2 lots, but the net effect was the same.

Tim


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## MT Born (Oct 29, 2014)

Gaffboat said:


> I would make a simple dado jig set up expressly for this job. A piece of 1/4" mdf or ply gives you something for the router to ride on without falling into your wide dado, and fences keep the router in a straight line. The side guides run along the outside of the boards and keep the guide square. You can just use a 1/2" straight bit.


Not to steal the thread but Oliver how do you create those amazing images?


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## Gaffboat (Mar 11, 2012)

MT Born said:


> Not to steal the thread but Oliver how do you create those amazing images?


They were just created in Sketchup, exported as 2D images and saved as PNG files. Various parts were given colors to make them easy to see. Just quickies that take about 30 minutes to think through and draw.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Gaffboat said:


> You can make a simple variation of the jig above to make it easy to cut the saw kerfs. Just line the edge of the jig to the inside of your line and make your cut. Move it over, cut again, rinse and repeat.
> 
> (It's a rainy day and these are just Sketchup quickies. )


jus noticed....
blade on the saw is on backwards...


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

The guy that's pointing it out posts the actual link... 
Router Forums - View Single Post - Setups to rout a wide and long area?


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

DaninVan said:


> The guy that's pointing it out posts the actual link...
> Router Forums - View Single Post - Setups to rout a wide and long area?


use the whole thread...

http://www.routerforums.com/general-routing/60401-setups-rout-wide-long-area.html#post560393


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