# Help - where do you locate your dust filter?



## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

I'm not talking about dust collection here. I'm specifically referring to air filtration like the ones sold by BusyBee, King, General, Powermatic, Grizzly and any number of other vendors.

Here's the rub. I'm updating the sticky on dust collection. I've divided the function into two parts, dust collection and air filtering.

On the air filter side I'm trying to determine the best location of an air filter. Firstly, is ceiling mount better than suspended or table mounted? Should the filter be located in the middle of the room or on the side? Where have you located yours? 

A further question, do you know of any information from any other industry that deals with air filtering and the location of filters or fans etc.


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## Tin man (Mar 4, 2012)

I deal with air cleaners on an everyday basis in HVAC.
From an air circulation standpoint the best location of the filter is in the center of the room, From an air cleaning standpoint the best location is near the source. The reason you will see so many mounted hanging from ceilings ect, is to make them accessible and keep them out of the way. Physical location will normally be decided based on whats practical for a given shop. 
Types and methods of filtering are going to differ considerably based on where your wood working shop is located. 
In a stand alone shop I would use a dust collector as the air filter. If you feel you need to reduce the dust levels apart from when you are actually making the dust with a tool, simply turn on your collector and open your ports, it will probably move more air and do a better job of filtering than a stand alone filter. 
If your shop is in your home the needs are probably quite a bit different. Room constraints can keep you from installing a central dust collection system. I would do a combination of things in that situation. First, still always try to collect the dust at its source, even if only using a shop vac. 2nd, stand alone dust collector with a mirv rating of at least 11. 3rd High efficiency air cleaner on the central heating or cooling system in the home. 
Hope this helps.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Hi Mark:



Tin man said:


> I deal with air cleaners on an everyday basis in HVAC.
> From an air circulation standpoint the best location of the filter is in the center of the room, From an air cleaning standpoint the best location is near the source. The reason you will see so many mounted hanging from ceilings ect, is to make them accessible and keep them out of the way. Physical location will normally be decided based on whats practical for a given shop.


Thanks for the location information. Is there more detailed information somewhere? 

How much clearance should I have on the intake side? I'm using a box fan with stacked filters. If I could mount it close to the ceiling and pushing air downward, I could create an efficient circular motion, down in the middle and up on the sides. Does this seem reasonable?



Tin man said:


> Types and methods of filtering are going to differ considerably based on where your wood working shop is located.


Mine is a dedicated shop, 16'x20' with 8' ceiling. It is insulated with 4" of Fiberglas vapour barrier and R40 in the attic. I have no icicles.



Tin man said:


> In a stand alone shop I would use a dust collector as the air filter. If you feel you need to reduce the dust levels apart from when you are actually making the dust with a tool, simply turn on your collector and open your ports, it will probably move more air and do a better job of filtering than a stand alone filter.


I've broken the dust issue into two parts: dust collection and air filtering. I'm working dust collection to MERV 8 and air filtering to MERV 8 and 1900MPS. I was using a 1 micron non-rated filter before and was having respiratory problems. I'm not going for minimalist now. If this doesn't work, I'll have to wear a fine particle gas mask.

Ok, what is optimal air movement? A shop vac moves from 135CFM to 185CFM. BusyBee's 5HP 220V dust collector moves 4820 CFM. My box fan moves 2100 CFM. BusyBee makes a big deal out of the noise being 90dB but nothing more than "1-Micron top bags" for filtering. No rating.

My shop is 16x20x8=2560 cubic feet. My fan will move all of that air in slightly over 1 minute given good air circulation. Theoretically, I can filter all of that air through my 1900 MPS filter in 1 minute 12 seconds. 



Tin man said:


> If your shop is in your home the needs are probably quite a bit different. Room constraints can keep you from installing a central dust collection system. I would do a combination of things in that situation. First, still always try to collect the dust at its source, even if only using a shop vac. 2nd, stand alone dust collector with a mirv rating of at least 11. 3rd High efficiency air cleaner on the central heating or cooling system in the home.
> Hope this helps.


Ok, can we put together a series of scenarios:

1. stand alone workshop: dust collection and air filter. Location of the air filter should be in the middle of the room or closest to the source of the dust.

2. in-home workshop: try to collect dust at the source and put in a high efficiency air cleaner. What rating should the air cleaner have?

Is there any other scenario that should be addressed?


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## ggom20 (Feb 1, 2012)

Hello!
I use an air filtration at ceiling level, it's home made and does not work well enought.

The idea is to pump air at ceiling level trought a filter, Could not get better than some
car air-intake filters at this time. They are in a box, this could be changed now that there is easyly availlable car-clim filters sub micron type.

Then a flex alu pipe to a squirrell rotor extractor thats a bit weak.

Then the filtered air is thrown in a pipe for difusion above my bench.

The diffusion box is 1.1 m x 0.5 m It did work well , before i put some big light in it.

It's based on what they install in surgy blocs above surgy table
to keep the air clean and bacteria free .

Got to change light position to outside the box and change filter type.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

ggom20 said:


> Hello!
> I use an air filtration at ceiling level, it's home made and does not work well enought.
> 
> The idea is to pump air at ceiling level trought a filter, Could not get better than some
> ...


Merci Gerard,

Est-ce que je peut vous suggère les filtres de fournaise. C'est beaucoup moins cher et beaucoup plus efficace. Je suis en train de modifié l'article que j'ai écrit pour ramasse poussière. Ce sera pas longe et vous pouvez voir mon solution.

Hi Gerard:

Can I suggest furnace filters. It is much less expensive and more efficient. I'm in the process of modifying the article that I'm writing for dust collection. It won't be long and you can see my solution.


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## ggom20 (Feb 1, 2012)

Bonjour!
Hello!

J' attends votre article avec interêt.
Je n' aurais jamais imaginé que des filtres pour cuisine soient meilleurs que ceux pour les moteurs...

I wait for you make your updating about filtering.
I could not imagine furnace filter would be better then motor-intake ones

Amicalement.
Regards
Gerard


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## DeclanJustin (Mar 10, 2012)

Part of my shop is in the garage and the rest of my tools (band saw, table saw, and router) are located in my basement. This offered a unique problem. My solution was to locate my collector in my garage and run pipe to my basement.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

DeclanJustin said:


> Part of my shop is in the garage and the rest of my tools (band saw, table saw, and router) are located in my basement. This offered a unique problem. My solution was to locate my collector in my garage and run pipe to my basement.


Hi Declan:

Ok, that's the dust collection from the sawdust generated by a tool. But that machine then throws dust into the air and that's the stuff that will kill you. That's the second part of dust collection, the filtering of the air. I've dedicated a good chunk of work trying to figure out something that works, and well. Here's the link:

http://www.routerforums.com/woodworking-articles/34320-dust-collection-updated-important.html

Ron


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Call me crazy but an air purifier is just that. Instead of spending big bucks for an industrial filter I use a round Honeywell HEPA filter. I bought this for $20? at a flea market. When sanding I set it next to the project and it pulls all the fines and most of the larger stuff into the filter. Of course you are welcome to spend more money for less performance...


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## ggom20 (Feb 1, 2012)

Mike said:


> Instead of spending big bucks for an industrial filter I use a round Honeywell HEPA filter. I bought this for $20? at a flea market. more money for less performance...


Hello mike!

i' d like to know more about your 20$ Honeywell HEPA filter like ref number ?
So ii could get info about real market price .

Tia
Gerard


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Mike said:


> Call me crazy but an air purifier is just that. Instead of spending big bucks for an industrial filter I use a round Honeywell HEPA filter. I bought this for $20? at a flea market. When sanding I set it next to the project and it pulls all the fines and most of the larger stuff into the filter. Of course you are welcome to spend more money for less performance...


Hi Mike:

Do you have a MERV number for that? The problem is the HEPA filters have a standard all their own and I can't find any comparison between HEPA and MERV. Help!

Ron


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Here is a link to a similar newer unit: Amazon.com: Honeywell 50150 Pure HEPA Round Air Purifier: Home & Kitchen

People buy these and use them a while; once they find out the cost of replacement elements they often end up in flea markets, second hand shops and garage sales cheap. I would not spend the money on replacement filters either. For the shop use it is fine; when needed I take it outside and blow it out with compressed air.

Ron, I have no idea what a MERV number is.(with the exception of a phone number to call my uncle.) These HEPA filters typically trap particles down to 0.3 microns. They have a high flow rate. As I said when sanding next to the machine you can see the flow of dust into the filter. The 360° intake and discharge does a great job in the shop.


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## ggom20 (Feb 1, 2012)

Hello!
Thanks fot your quik answer Mike!
Pity that "flea market" is no so good around here, I have to buy new things.

Been visiting Amazon , it comes that Honeywell system is more expensive to use than
3M equivalent system:

Honeywell 50150 Pure HEPA Round Air Purifier $114
Amazon.com: Honeywell 50150 Pure HEPA Round Air Purifier: Home & Kitchen

Honeywell 38002 Enviracare Universal Replacement Pre-Filter $1.5
Found the Honeywell HEPA replacement for $46.99

Amazon.com: Honeywell 24500 Replacement Air Cleaner HEPA Filter: Home & Kitchen

About 3M:
*300MPR*
Filtrete 303DC-6 Dust Reduction Filters, 300 MPR, 20 x 25 x 1, 6-Pack $31.01
Amazon.com: Filtrete 303DC-6 Dust Reduction Filters, 300 MPR, 20 x 25 x 1, 6-Pack: Home Improvement

Pack of 6 that's a $5 each.

*1000 MERV*

3M Filtrete 4-Pack Micro Allergen Reduction Filters, 1000 MERV $49.40
Amazon.com: Filtrete 9802-4PK Micro Allergen Reduction Filters, 1000 MPR, 20 x 20 x 1, 4-Pack: Home Improvement
That's a $12.5 each.

* 1500 MPR*
Filtrete 2002DC-6 Ultra Allergen Reduction Filters, 1500 MPR, 20 x 20 x 1, 6-Pack $96.87
Amazon.com: Filtrete 2002DC-6 Ultra Allergen Reduction Filters, 1500 MPR, 20 x 20 x 1, 6-Pack: Home Improvement

That makes $15 each!

*1900 MPR*
Filtrete UA02-6PK Ultimate Allergen Reduction Filters, 1900 MPR, 20 x 20 x 1, 6-Pack:
Amazon.com: Filtrete UA02-6PK Ultimate Allergen Reduction Filters, 1900 MPR, 20 x 20 x 1, 6-Pack: Home Improvement
$104.57 That's a better filter for $16 each.

*2200 MPR*
Filtrete EA02DC-6 Elite Allergen Reduction Filters, 2200 MPR, 20 x 20 x 1, 6-Pack 
Amazon.com: Filtrete EA02DC-6 Elite Allergen Reduction Filters, 2200 MPR, 20 x 20 x 1, 6-Pack: Home Improvement

$140.99 makes $23.5 each.

That the ultimate possibilty of micro- filtering.

Now tha's big packs of 6 let's buy less:
Filtrete EA02-2PK-2 Elite Allergen Reduction Filters, 2200 MPR, 20 x 20 x 1, 2-Pack 
Amazon.com: Filtrete EA02-2PK-2 Elite Allergen Reduction Filters, 2200 MPR, 20 x 20 x 1, 2-Pack: Home Improvement

$40.61 for two filters. One filter $20.5


So let's figure out price for 3 stage Ron 3 stage filtering:


stage2 1000 merv $ 12.5
stage3 2200 MPR $ 20.5
--------------
Total $ 32.50

Buyings:

1000 merv qty4 $ 50
2200 MPR qty2 $41
---------------------------
Total $91 but It' s investment for years ...

*Comparison filter changing:*

Honeywell well Pre-filter $ 1.50
Honeywell HEPA $ 46.00
------------------------------------
Total $ 47.50 <> 3M combination 3 stages $ 32.50

So it makes a 2 Stages well rated filter- set cheaper than Honeywell HEPA 

Stays the fan, maybe that could do it:

Air King 20-Inch 2,140 CFM 3-Speed Box Fan #9723 $38.35
Amazon.com: Air King 20-Inch 2,140 CFM 3-Speed Box Fan #9723: Home & Kitchen

So it comes to $37.50 filters
$39 fan
------------------------------
Total $78.50 Plus some plywood or medium 1/2" for box.
total 

Regards


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Hi Mike:

Here is a link to a similar newer unit: Amazon.com: Honeywell 50150 Pure HEPA Round Air Purifier: Home & Kitchen

People buy these and use them a while; once they find out the cost of replacement elements they often end up in flea markets, second hand shops and garage sales cheap. I would not spend the money on replacement filters either. For the shop use it is fine; when needed I take it outside and blow it out with compressed air.[/QUOTE]

Interesting gadget. I've never seen one up here. I'll keep my eyes open this summer and see what I can pick up. The biggest problem I see is the limit to the airflow. A shop needs lots of airflow to clear the air as quickly as possible.



Mike said:


> Ron, I have no idea what a MERV number is.(with the exception of a phone number to call my uncle.) These HEPA filters typically trap particles down to 0.3 microns. They have a high flow rate. As I said when sanding next to the machine you can see the flow of dust into the filter. The 360° intake and discharge does a great job in the shop.


I'm trying to replace the sticky with all of that information but I keep running into new information. I'll try another upload in the next day or so.

Thanks for the input Mike.

Ron


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## ggom20 (Feb 1, 2012)

hello Ron!

Maybe update to 2200 MPR:

Amazon.com: Filtrete EA02-2PK-2 Elite Allergen Reduction Filters, 2200 MPR, 20 x 20 x 1, 2-Pack: Home Improvement

By the way , I' d go for only two levels filters, cost less and better air-flow.
What's your opinion?

Regards.
Gérard


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

ggom20 said:


> hello Ron!
> 
> Maybe update to 2200 MPR:
> 
> ...


Hi Gerard:

The update is not the problem, it's getting the 2200MPR. If our local vendors don't carry it, it can't be had unless ordered in. If the labelling isn't in two languages, my local vendors can't get it. I've actually run into a vendor refusing to ship english language only products into Quebec. 

As for the two levels of filters I had them so I used them. I also looked at the "more efficient" filters and the most expensive were 4" thick so I figured "why not?" At a minimum I figured the two cheap filters would help keep the expensive filters from getting fouled up with coarse dust.

We'll have to compare notes further down the road.

Ron


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## Tin man (Mar 4, 2012)

Regarding merv ratings, hepa ratings and mpr ratings

What is a MERV Rating?

MERV, which stands for Minimum Efficiency Reporting Value, is a rating that was developed by ASHRAE (the American Society of Heating, Refrigerating, and Air-Conditioning Engineers) used to assess the filtering power of a furnace filter/air cleaner.
The MERV scale consists of ratings from 1 to 16, with filter performance being greater as the number increases. On the MERV scale, dirt particles are graded from 0.3 microns to 10 microns. A micron is 1 millionth of a millimeter, and to give you an idea of just how small that is, you can look at the size of a single human hair. The average strand of human hair is about 100 microns thick, so imagine just how small 0.3 microns of dirt is!
The Merv rating is directly related to micron size, with the best merv rating being 16 

A HEPA air filter must trap 99.97% of all airborne contaminants that are 0.3 microns, which would give it a merv raing of 16

Mpr rating were developed by 3m as there own rating system. I have not been able to find any way to relate it to the standard of measuring removal by micron size. I personally believe that they developed their own rating system to deliberately make it hard to compart their filters with others. Also, since none of the independant testing labs use the MPR rating system there is no independant testing done to verify any of 3M's ratings. Honeywell hepa rated filters have been tested and rated by independant testing labratories. 
.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Hi Mark:

Gerard found a chart that specifically states the MPR ratings on filters and their equivalent in MERV, The best 3M filter with an MPR of 2200 is directly equivalent to MERV12. I've included this in the article I'm about to upload. I think we've got it down pretty good by name.

Thanks for the info.

Ron


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## ggom20 (Feb 1, 2012)

Hello!

Pitty this nice brand new 3M 2200MPR is only a 12 MERV..
It looks unsuficient comparing it to HEPA.
Did you find any information about HEPA testing compares to MERV ?
If test conditions are not the same, HEPA could be one other way to make things look good while still questionable.

I did like the simple constuction 20x20x1...
But got information about a costly Hepa filter for workshop that's more than 10" thick.

Regards


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## AaronRC4 (Feb 27, 2012)

*3M /Dylos*

At one time I bought into the theory that if you had good dust collection at the source you didn't need a separate dust collection filter. Then Dylos brought out an relative inexpensive test instrument for displaying the amount of dust in the air you breath. I bought the DC1100 version that measures down to .5 Micron. 
This was a bit of a shock when first used. My shop appears clean to the eye but its not. I can get air down to a display of 65 which is rated excellent but if I turn on a hand held router or my dual drum sander I get 6500. My shop made filter uses a 2amp blower with a 20x24 HEPA and a police filter of the purple 3M Home furnace of about the same size. I fogot the Merv # but no matter,it doesn't work fast enough to clear the air in less then 5 hours. I just recently replaced the 3M 1" thick filter with a 6" thick 3M filter I got at Lowes for about $30 as I remember. No data yet but I don't expect much. It should last a long time ,maybe a year compared to the 2-3 months I get on the 1" filter and should be cost effective. There will be no change in air quality time. This system works fair for light dust but when cutting MDF forget it.

So I now use the furnace if the air goes bad. I have 4 each 3M filters on it about 12x20 in parallel. This works very well and cleans the air to 75 in about an hour+. So I got a used furnace blower for free. Some of the HVAC will give you one. I'm going to build a system around this blower and use the 3M V-Bank filters. I don't like running the furnace blower and wearing it out. $$$

Using a HEPA to clean shop air is futile. HEPA fillters get 100% of the dust. This is important in some industries where a spec of dust will ruin a part. The MERV's don't get 100% but what it misses will be picked up on the 2 or 3rd pass though. The important thing is a HUGE amount of air flow to clean the air fast. HEPA NG for this at a fair price. I think good MERV's will get the job done on the cheap. I intend to tie the blower to the Dylos so when the air quality drops to a bad level it turns on automatically and then turns off when the air is clean.

Without meters one cannot determine what is going on. CFM or air quality. If you value your health spend the $ and buy a Dylos. Subjective comments are just hot air and mean nothing. I'll tell you what- trying to figure air out is the most difficult thing I have ever done. There is so much bad info and just plain lies out there it drives me nutso. Every one with a HF unit is an expert, they think.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Excellent AaronRC4:

Thanks for the heads up on the Dylos. I took a look at the price though and by the time I bring it into Canada, it will be prohibitive.

Ok. would you do an experiment for me please. Take a bright lamp and turn it on in your shop. Cut some MDF or something and see how much dust you show in the beam of light from the lamp. Now measure the air with your Dylos. Run your filter stack until you do not see particles in the lamp beam and measure again. Please tell me what you saw and the values you measured.

For me, I routed a piece of MDF. I had dust all over the place. Within the first foot of the lamp in the light beam there was a fair amount of dust. I ran my filter for two hours and went back and took another look. There was no dust in the beam of light. I'd love to know how that measures on your Dylos. I'm sure that this is a pretty objective evaluation but it's all I've got.

Thanks for the help.

Ron


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## camerio1 (Mar 23, 2012)

The question is still out there, where do you find your filters for King air filtering system, well king Canada on their website now list the two filters for their 2 models
(I am not allowed yet to post the url yet) 
Now you have to order them through a seller of King Tools


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Hi Andre:

I don't know where you are so I'll give you a contact:

TegsTools.com

Call them (they have a watts number if necessary) and they will ship to you. If you're going to get a good price, theirs will probably be amongst the best. BTW, Home Hardware can also order filters for you. I think the warehouse in St. Jacobs stocks them.

That said, the King Canada model is only a 5 micron and 1 micron filtering system for probably a good chunk of change. I've effectively replaced it with my garage sale box fan and filter stack.

I'm gradually updating my dust collection article. There's part of it in place at the moment in the woodworking articles section of this forum.







camerio1 said:


> The question is still out there, where do you find your filters for King air filtering system, well king Canada on their website now list the two filters for their 2 models
> (I am not allowed yet to post the url yet)
> Now you have to order them through a seller of King Tools


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## camerio1 (Mar 23, 2012)

allthunbs said:


> Hi Andre:
> 
> I don't know where you are so I'll give you a contact:
> 
> ...


Thanks, I will soon have post #10 so I will be able to update my profile.
I live in the Quebec City area, Valcartier to be exact, it is 30 minutes north of the center of the city. There is a few Home Hardware in my area and I have a Canac-Marquis hardware near me that sells King tools, but that part for the air filter has to be order, the do not stock it.
I have cleaned to filter with my compressor (outside of the shop, of course ) and I think they still have some life yet.


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## AaronRC4 (Feb 27, 2012)

allthunbs said:


> Excellent AaronRC4:
> 
> Thanks for the heads up on the Dylos. I took a look at the price though and by the time I bring it into Canada, it will be prohibitive.
> 
> ...


================================================================

Brilliant idea! Never thought of a do it your self dust tester but I think it can be done on the cheap. I'm a retired EE and a genuine DIYer in the shop. I save a huge amount of money by forward thinking.In fact I enjoy making tooling and stuff more then building furniture or cabinets.

All of the dust particle counters work on the same principle of using a laser and measuring the light from back scattering. For our needs we don't need a $4600 lab instrument. Dylos charges about $200 for the 1 micron. I bought the .5 Micron unit a long time ago . They did an excellent job of getting the price down but its still a bit much for a home shop. 

I have a very large back order of all sorts of projects Wife, kids etc so probably about 6 months before I can complete this. It takes me about 3 tries to get a project where I like it. I can already see a bunch of ways to do this in my head. A really fun project. The killer is measuring the back scatter in a wide enough range to be useable. It might be as easy as using a photo transistor and a Harbor freight Digital Volt meter. Cost here for parts about $10-$20. Things rarely work out but we shall see. Keep in contact with me.

If there are any EE's here jump in. 

I also have a lot of test gear for airflow. If you have duct work you can roughly estimate your CFM by making a Slack Tube manometer. That is simply a 1/4" clear plastic tube about 4' long bent in a U shape. Fill it half way with water and stick one end inside the duct . This will give you a pressure reading( SP) which relates to CFM.

The matching CFM instrument is also a bit pricey at about $120 but CFM estimates are probably good enough for most folk. No way to DIY for the CFM meter that I know of.


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## ggom20 (Feb 1, 2012)

Hello!

Interesting challenge to measure dust in the air...
But I won't try. as long as there is dust on my shelves;
I'd better spend my limited time trying to ameliorate:

1- Dust extraction witch one of the source of the dust problem.

2- Air cleaning , and MERV 12 is insuficiant.

My opinion is to clean the air where i breath it, that's mostly around the work bench.

So, i want to inject from top some clean air where i stand.This what i will breath.
That's consistent with a surgy installation flowing clean air to "work area".

So HEPA looks a lot better than merv12.
If we got EE around, what about electrostatic dust-collection.
easy to make a 20 kv power suply.
I think that's the ultimate way of catching litle things...
There is also another factor that's first to recuce air speed , by increasing the square section, then particles with low mechanichal energies would get easier to catch.

I don't care of having a 3 cubical meter filter, if works better.

Regards


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Bonjour Andre,



camerio1 said:


> Thanks, I will soon have post #10 so I will be able to update my profile.


Go to the introductions forum and answer 10 newbies with a hello and welcome. You can get your 10 in a few minutes.



camerio1 said:


> I live in the Quebec City area, Valcartier to be exact, it is 30 minutes north of the center of the city.


What is your rank?



camerio1 said:


> There is a few Home Hardware in my area and I have a Canac-Marquis hardware near me that sells King tools, but that part for the air filter has to be order, the do not stock it.


Typical. You might try Nordique in Quebec City. I don't like them but they sometimes stock supplies. They have a lot of router bits but they don't use routers so they don't stock bits that are usable.



camerio1 said:


> I have cleaned to filter with my compressor (outside of the shop, of course ) and I think they still have some life yet.


I would recommend rather than use the air compressor, use the dust brush (the one with long bristles) on your vacuum cleaner. The bristles will keep the filter material far from the suction but it will disturb the dust so the vacuum can suck it up. It might work better. That's what I do with mine.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Hi Aaron:

Before you undertake the electronic solution, could you try the experiment. This is so that guys around the world can have an idea of how bad their environment really is and perhaps then qualify why to look to solutions and perhaps measurements systems. 

I'm going to input into your thinking below but give me a bit of time to think it through. The laser method is quite predictable so that's why it works. The equivalent is a strong light source against a dark(?) background. Can that be compressed and the light attenuation measured?????

Let me think about this some more.

Ron




AaronRC4 said:


> ================================================================
> 
> Brilliant idea! Never thought of a do it your self dust tester but I think it can be done on the cheap. I'm a retired EE and a genuine DIYer in the shop. I save a huge amount of money by forward thinking.In fact I enjoy making tooling and stuff more then building furniture or cabinets.
> 
> ...


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## AaronRC4 (Feb 27, 2012)

allthunbs said:


> Hi Aaron:
> 
> Before you undertake the electronic solution, could you try the experiment. This is so that guys around the world can have an idea of how bad their environment really is and perhaps then qualify why to look to solutions and perhaps measurements systems.
> 
> ...


 No problem with the experiment and I know what I will see, a bunch of dust in an air stream. I've done this a long time ago. There is no way I can describe verbally what I see. A" whole lot of dust" doesn't mean much and a" little bit of dust" is the same. I have to have a number or indicator.

More thoughts on my el cheapo meter . I think maybe 3 led lights indicating poor, fair and ok is all that's needed. 

Some day when I get time. Old guys don't get much done . If not getting much done is a qualifier then I'm older then God.


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## AaronRC4 (Feb 27, 2012)

*Cancer*

Got a call yesterday from a long time friend who's a hobby woodworker like me and also a smoker. Has nasal cancer but lungs are clear but typically congested. Cough cough. The Doc says give it up- ie smoking and wood working. They are going to remove his sinus membranes which means he will have no sense of smell anymore

I just Googled occupational cancer-wood workers for the first time. If your queasy on this subject of cancer, don't do it. The articles claim woodworkers nasal cancer is 500 -1000 times higher then the general population. We talk about finger loss and a bunch of safety stuff that nothing to compared to this in numbers.

So that telephone call was a wake up for me and I'm going to take another hard look at dust control in the shop. If your shop is in the house you can wipe out your wife and kids also. Think about it.

Bill Pentz has a huge site on dust control. Worth reading.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Hi Aaron:



AaronRC4 said:


> Got a call yesterday from a long time friend who's a hobby woodworker like me and also a smoker. Has nasal cancer but lungs are clear but typically congested. Cough cough. The Doc says give it up- ie smoking and wood working. They are going to remove his sinus membranes which means he will have no sense of smell anymore


He's lucky. He's still alive. Fifty years ago he'd be dead by the time he was diagnosed.



AaronRC4 said:


> I just Googled occupational cancer-wood workers for the first time. If your queasy on this subject of cancer, don't do it. The articles claim woodworkers nasal cancer is 500 -1000 times higher then the general population. We talk about finger loss and a bunch of safety stuff that nothing to compared to this in numbers.


That's why I'm doing this. However, it takes someone like you to speak up and be heard. Add your 2 cents worth to the sticky at this url:

http://www.routerforums.com/shop-sa...collection-solutions-comments.html#post186623



AaronRC4 said:


> So that telephone call was a wake up for me and I'm going to take another hard look at dust control in the shop. If your shop is in the house you can wipe out your wife and kids also. Think about it.
> 
> Bill Pentz has a huge site on dust control. Worth reading.


Go to the URL above and follow the link to the article in Woodworking Articles. There you'll find a link to a *.pdf that I've uploaded on dust control.

Please take the time to read it and comment. Any comments you may have would be appreciated.


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Hi Ron

Been following this for a while and thought I'd chime in.

In commercial shops it's normal to try and get dust extraction which extracts the maximum of dust at source - far better and easier to catch it when it's made that let your lungs filter it _before_ it gets to your air cleaner. For that reason I'd prefer to attach a vacuum cleaner to my router and wera a dust mask (or better yet an air helmet). We're finally starting to see "building sites" (and I regard a hotel remodel for example as just such) where companies are taking this on board as well, although it's long overdue IMHO. 

I've seen the results of breathing too much unextracted hardwood dust first hand and it's not just cancer than can get you - my father ended up with pneumoconiosis and a collapsed lung which partly led to his premature death and that was directly down to his time working as an occupational therapist teaching wood turning (amongst other things). His exposure duration was well under 10 years in the late 1950s/early 1960s and I take that as a warning

Regards

Phil


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Hi Phil:



Phil P said:


> Hi Ron
> 
> Been following this for a while and thought I'd chime in.


Chime away. I'm looking for stuff that should be included in the article on dust collection here:

http://www.routerforums.com/woodwor...-collection-updated-important.html#post274714

The objective is to get as much input as possible to render this a usable document for everyone, newbie and ancient duffer.



Phil P said:


> In commercial shops it's normal to try and get dust extraction which extracts the maximum of dust at source - far better and easier to catch it when it's made that let your lungs filter it _before_ it gets to your air cleaner. For that reason I'd prefer to attach a vacuum cleaner to my router and wera a dust mask (or better yet an air helmet). We're finally starting to see "building sites" (and I regard a hotel remodel for example as just such) where companies are taking this on board as well, although it's long overdue IMHO.


So, when I compare what you've experienced to what I've discovered, it is reasonable to assume that dust collection and air filtering were accepted as hazards of the job and continue to be so today. I say this because had the woodworking industry demanded better filtering and dust control, it would have happened long ago. 

I second the dust mask idea. I use them when I'm working with MDF in addition to my shop made collection and filtering.



Phil P said:


> I've seen the results of breathing too much unextracted hardwood dust first hand and it's not just cancer than can get you - my father ended up with pneumoconiosis and a collapsed lung which partly led to his premature death and that was directly down to his time working as an occupational therapist teaching wood turning (amongst other things). His exposure duration was well under 10 years in the late 1950s/early 1960s and I take that as a warning


Doesn't take much. It just takes the wrong time and the wrong place for the wrong reason and 15 years later you pay the price. 

Take a look at the article that I referenced above and see if there's anything there that should be improved.

Thanks Phil.

Ron


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## Cutlass327 (Sep 1, 2018)

Bringing back an old thread from the dead, but I have a question and I think this is a good place for it. 

I see the box fan in the pdf used as a filter, and is labeled as having a 2100CFM of airflow. I just wonder how much of that 2100CFM is lost with all of those filters. That rating by the mfr would be free flowing, as the fan is meant to be used, but adding 3-4 filters will slow it down a lot. 

Has anyone ever measured the flow loss?


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

I doubt anyone here has Rick as first off it is very tricky to measure such a thing. I'm not even sure if the manufacturers actually measure the flow or just do some calculations. The only easy measurements that can be taken are the velocity of the air coming out of the fan and the diameter of the blades. I suppose if you could measure that velocity before filters and after filters it would give you a ratio to multiply the 2100 by and that would give you a decent ballpark figure. Your end result would also depend on the filters and to what micron rating they have. The finer the mesh, the more effect it would have on the air flow.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Hi Rick:



Cutlass327 said:


> Bringing back an old thread from the dead, but I have a question and I think this is a good place for it.
> 
> I see the box fan in the pdf used as a filter, and is labeled as having a 2100CFM of airflow. I just wonder how much of that 2100CFM is lost with all of those filters. That rating by the mfr would be free flowing, as the fan is meant to be used, but adding 3-4 filters will slow it down a lot.
> 
> Has anyone ever measured the flow loss?


No I haven't. I don't have the equipment and now my shop usage is so low as to not require the fan at all. I took a standard box fan, stuck a stack of progressively finer furnace filters on it, put a pair of deflectors on the top and let it run. I look at the dust in the beam of sunlight and it doesn't seem worse than before I turned the saw on. I can also breathe. It has to be better than nothing but certainly not as good as high-end scientifically proven dust control systems.

I still wear face masks when using MDF though. Use your own common sense and protect yourself first. Better to err on the side of caution than suffer the consequences 20 years down the road. I know my situation and felt it adequate for that. It may not be suitable for your situation. That said, my kitbash solution with a hepa filter has to be better than a big canvas bag.

Allthunbs


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

anybody have a vane style air flow meter out there???


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

In response to the first post: I have an air filter suspended from the ceiling in my shop, and another hanging from the ceiling in my garage. I choose the WEN filters (see pix below) because their stats are the same as "name brand" filters, but the price was low enough so I could afford two. 

They hang in the middle, near one wall, about 1-2 feet below the ceiling. The point is to create a circular air flow. These have a remote control and timers for 2, 4 and 8 hours of operation. The air is far clearer after 4 hours, which is the usual interval I set. My shop is 12x24 and the garage is 22 ft square, so I'm thinking of adding a second filter on the opposite wall. 

I've been on a campaign to stop sawdust in my shop. I have two Harbor Freight dust collection units, one for the shop, the other is in the garage. The one in the shop has a Wynn drum filter, the one in the garage just has the bag, but is rolled outside during use.

I recently enclosed a space between two sheds (one is the shop), put in a strong floor and placed the DC unit outside (see pix) , but well protected from weather. The enclosed space acts as a wind tunnel and carries the ultra fine dust away. See pix for installation. By placing it outside, accessed via a Rockler through-the-wall, 4 inch port, I regained space inside the shop and it is much easier to clean up stray sawdust. BTW, the HF units are often on sale along with a 25% off coupon. Mine cost about $150 each.

In the picture of the shop interior, you can see that I recently added above the blade collection via a Shark Guard. This has greatly diminished the sawdust emitted by the saw. On the left side of the picture, you can see where the 2.5 and 4 inch hoses join in a Y fitting, then go through the wall. This has also reduced the noise level in the shop.

The 4 inch hose in the picture is hooked up to a 4 inch "sweeper" that is able to reach into corners and extract sawdust. The hose is hooked up to whatever tool I'm using. All 2.5 inch ports are attached to a 4 inch fitting. The big offender is the sliding miter saw. I have DC set up with a shower curtain that feeds down into a 4 inch port, but I intend to set up a "porch" so I can roll the saw outside for use. There is just no way to hold down the sawdust that thing produces.

The shop is slowly being set up for sawdust control. I have open shelves now, but all tool stands have doors to keep sawdust out, so I will be removing the shelves and making enclosed cabinets to replace them. With the exception of one wall furthest from the cutting tools, all other areas have nothing stored in the first 16 inches from the floor so it's easy to suck up the dust there. 

I use a Rockler powered dust mask that is really effective. I keep two sets of batteries fully charged to power it. See pix. I always wear this when cutting and for hours after.

I also keep a box of surgical type masks for the times I work in there without making any cuts. I issue one of these disposables to any guests who come into the shop.

Glad to see this discussion about this often overlooked danger. I read that OSHA found that home shope had far worse dust conditions that a commercial shop. If I had it to do over again, I would have bought a decent DC unit and setup right away. Some people love the smell of fresh cut wood, but you can still detect that aroma even with a mask.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Hope no one minds my posting my solution again, but dust collection is not a casual matter and something of a battle you don't want the flying sawdust to win.


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## MT Stringer (Aug 15, 2012)

That WEN filter looks a lot like the Grizzly I have hanging from the ceiling. :surprise::grin:


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

It's probably sold under a few names.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

MT Stringer said:


> That WEN filter looks a lot like the Grizzly I have hanging from the ceiling. :surprise::grin:


I noticed that too. Which is why I felt confident and bought it. Several of the WEN products are identical to name brands, thier 12 inch band saw and large bench drill press. Both are identical to Jet and Rikon models, and a couple of other brand labels, according to a quick web search.


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## Cutlass327 (Sep 1, 2018)

OK, I was just curious. I didn't know if anyone had ever tried one of those handheld wind speed meters you see for hunting or whatever. A LOT of very good info here. I just built a box 20x20x30 with my old belt driven furnace fan inside with 3 sides having 25x16x1 filters. I only have one Filtrete 1500 Ultra Allergen per side, looks to be a MERV 11 according to a site I just found. 

I should probably add a couple more, or find a smaller micron filter. I plan to just duct tape around them to seal, they're just there for test fitting. Kids were wanting dinner, so I had to stop there.

As for where it will be located, I have it sitting in the 'bed' of my CJ5, as I am going to be sanding the wheel wells to smooth the fiberglass I just laid last week. Cannot get it any closer!


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