# Router Table Top Material



## Yellow Hammer (Mar 28, 2010)

I'm thinking of using 1-3/8" solid surface counter top material (simulated granite, i.e., Silestone). I have an Incra LS Positioner, PC 7518 router and the Incra Woodpecker PRL-V2 router lift. My experience with MDF and phenolic is that they tend to sag due to the weight of the router and lift and must be aggressively supported in order to avoid the sagging.

Has anyone had any experience using solid surface countertop material as a router table top? Thanks for your input in advance.


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## Gene Howe (Jul 10, 2007)

The reasons we didn't use Silestone in our new kitchen were it's propensity for scratches and it's non-resistance to scorching. 
Scorching wouldn't be a problem in a router table top, but I'd bet scratching would.
My top is 24"X24" of 1 1/8 MDF covered with a pretty tough laminate. It is "aggressively" supported for the weight of the 7518 and Jessem lift. 
When we were researching counter top materials, we were advised to "aggressively" support the engineered stuff also. Especially, around the cast iron sink we used. I'll bet my PC and lift weighs in at just a bit under the weight of our sink. (without water:haha
We ended up with granite on the counters. Now that would make a great router table top.


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## AxlMyk (Jun 13, 2006)

I used 2 plies of 3/4" MDF glued together. Makes a great table.
Use an insert plate. You will wish you did.


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## paduke (Mar 28, 2010)

IMHO the ult is phenolic plywood. Have read about it on-line but yet to source it. I am building a 12' long 2' wide bench with router table built-in. I own a Triton 3 1/4 hp so weight is a concern. My top is 1/2 CDX build up glued to 3/4 AC with 1/8" tempered hardboard glued on top. With a 3/8' insert plate there will remain 1 1/4" plywood suppporting the plate. I had 4X8 laminate sheet intended for the benchtop but realized the durability and smoothness of hardboard (price also at 7 bucks a sheet) persuaded me to save laminate for outfeed table.


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## BearLeeAlive (Mar 22, 2010)

I see no reason not to use Silestone. We have installed it in many a kitchen and bath. I have never heard issues with scratching. It will definitely not droop or sag in the span on a router table.

I can't imagine it would be any too cheap with the milling involved in cutting out a relief for the lift, but then my Bench Dog top was none too cheap either.


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## Swallow (Jan 13, 2010)

Never having worked with Silestone I really couldn't say but if it's anything like Corian I don't think that you will find a better RT top material esp if you use the solvent adhesive to laminate two sheets into one. As far a milling goes the corian mills like cheese just use your router. It's a bit pricey here at least as it runs at around $30.00 a square foot, but with the area of the average RT I don't think that it would put anybody in the poor house when one conceder's what one is getting. So if Silestone is anything like Corian I say go for it.


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

+1 on MDF with Formica on both sides.



AxlMyk said:


> I used 2 plies of 3/4" MDF glued together. Makes a great table.
> Use an insert plate. You will wish you did.


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## vcooney (Apr 30, 2010)

I think corian would work well and would be over the top. And it would be costly. MDF with formica would be my vote.

Vince


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## BearLeeAlive (Mar 22, 2010)

Swallow said:


> Never having worked with Silestone I really couldn't say but if it's anything like Corian I don't think that you will find a better RT top material esp if you use the solvent adhesive to laminate two sheets into one. As far a milling goes the corian mills like cheese just use your router. It's a bit pricey here at least as it runs at around $30.00 a square foot, but with the area of the average RT I don't think that it would put anybody in the poor house when one conceder's what one is getting. So if Silestone is anything like Corian I say go for it.


Silestone is a quartz based product composed of over 90% stone chips bound together by a resin. Corian is a form of hard plastic. Silestone is shaped and finished just like granite, whereas Corian can be shaped with good steel cutting tools. Silestone would also have way less flex than Corian and is less prone to scratching.

I would rather us a good laminate than Corian for a router top, as it is tougher.


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## Dr.Zook (Sep 10, 2004)

Hello Vince. Welcome to the RouterForums. Glad to have you participate in our forums.


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## fullersr (Sep 20, 2011)

Well the folly of newbies! Having just gutted my bathroom, I had 1/2" corian and lots of it. I laminated 3 pieces together and routed the insert (a Rockler insert plate). It looks pretty good, but I don't know that I would do it again. I chewed up a bunch of good bits and the better part of two weekends. I'm sure MDF and laminate would have been just fine.


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## Eric G. (Aug 2, 2011)

fullersr said:


> Well the folly of newbies! Having just gutted my bathroom, I had 1/2" corian and lots of it. I laminated 3 pieces together and routed the insert (a Rockler insert plate). It looks pretty good, but I don't know that I would do it again. I chewed up a bunch of good bits and the better part of two weekends. I'm sure MDF and laminate would have been just fine.


I am new to the forum and this is my first post. I bought several good sized pieces of it some time ago and am considering laminating three sheets, too. Can you tell me the adhesive you used and the process? i.e. vacuum bag, etc. 

Eric


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## mpbc48 (Sep 17, 2010)

As long as this thread has come back to life, I'll toss in my .02 

I'm very happy with 2 of the 3/4" MDF sheets glued together. I laminated both the top and bottom and sealed the edges with poly. That and a Bench Dog plate will provide plenty of support for any router out there.

Mike


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## fullersr (Sep 20, 2011)

> Can you tell me the adhesive you used and the process? i.e. vacuum bag, etc.


I believe people tend to recommend West System epoxy. I used what I could find locally at HD -- an inexpensive epoxy resin (can't remember the brand). I sanded the surfaces and cleaned thoroughly with acetone. I laminated the material in two steps. After the first two pieces set and cured, I added the third. I clamped them up using curved cauls. That was a mistake. The cauls added a bit of camber to the top. it's acceptable, but I wish I hadn't done it.

My strong recommendation is not to do this. It's really not worth the effort.


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Baltic birch plywood is the best choice for strength and stability. If you want to add thickness and mass to reduce vibration the plan from Shopnotes #1 is an excellent choice. This uses 3/4" plywood with 1/2" of Masonite on top. The edges are wrapped with hardwood and then Formica is added top and bottom. This makes for a great table top as seen in these two plan photos.


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## Eric G. (Aug 2, 2011)

fullersr said:


> I believe people tend to recommend West System epoxy. I used what I could find locally at HD -- an inexpensive epoxy resin (can't remember the brand). I sanded the surfaces and cleaned thoroughly with acetone. I laminated the material in two steps. After the first two pieces set and cured, I added the third. I clamped them up using curved cauls. That was a mistake. The cauls added a bit of camber to the top. it's acceptable, but I wish I hadn't done it.
> 
> My strong recommendation is not to do this. It's really not worth the effort.


Thanks for the process and the advice. When you say not worth the effort, do you mean you do not like the surface, or are unhappy with the result due to the flatness issue. I have machined corian before with good results, but was unsure how I could bond them together. To acheive flatness, I intend to use the table saw for a reference and a vacuum bag to clamp the pieces while the adhesive sets up.


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## jlord (Nov 16, 2009)

Mike said:


> Baltic birch plywood is the best choice for strength and stability. If you want to add thickness and mass to reduce vibration the plan from Shopnotes #1 is an excellent choice. This uses 3/4" plywood with 1/2" of Masonite on top. The edges are wrapped with hardwood and then Formica is added top and bottom. This makes for a great table top as seen in these two plan photos.


The only problem is it will sag over time with the larger routers. Unless you give it extra support underneath.


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## Dal300 (Jul 14, 2011)

I made a few Corian/Silestone counter tops a few years back, What I found was that if I used a regular wood bit, it would get ruined in just about 30 seconds. I ended up buying a couple of fancy diamond grinding bits for granite, and they worked quite well, except they would load up with cut material and burn.
The best that I found was a pneumatic die grinder on a sled, using an abrasive cutoff disc from HF to make the straight through cuts. Once those were done, I used cheap Chinese abrasive router bits to make the profile.
Just for S&G's, I tried a few minutes ago to put one of my Eagle America bits into a new piece of 2" thick Corian I was going to use for a flat surface to hone my chisels. The bit just burned and made a few scratches on the surface. Yeah, it cut, but I think the straight bit is done for.


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## rstutheit (Sep 26, 2011)

I'm very much a newbie to this, but would would share that I used a portion of a heavy solid core door (1 3/4 thick) for my table. I find it to work well and the cost was right....free from the demo site. Easy to cutout & router space for router plate to sit into.
Randy


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## Eric G. (Aug 2, 2011)

Dal300 said:


> The bit just burned and made a few scratches on the surface. Yeah, it cut, but I think the straight bit is done for.




Wow! I have cut corian on my table saw using a cheap carbide blade. It make terrible dust, but it cut easily enough. I then made several ZCI for the same saw and used a flush cutting router bit. I planned on the same procedure for the router top I have planned.


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## 603Country (Dec 1, 2010)

Like a couple of the other guys, I glued up two pieces of 3/4 MDF and routed out the top for a router plate. I didn't even use laminate on the faces of the tabletop, but put several coats of a good varnish on it and trimmed the edge with oak. It looks great and has put up with the abuse I've dished out over the last 5 years or so. I might need to put another coat of varnish on the top in the next year or so. And, like the others, I did put in plenty of support for the top. Absolutely no problems with the end result, and it was cheap. And with MDF, you get a really flat surface.


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## Dal300 (Jul 14, 2011)

Eric, I was just sitting here wondering if the router was turning too fast and that caused the heat which caused the burning which the ruining of the router bit? I dunno. my router is an older Craftsman single speed that turns @ 20K. It's possible that a variable speed would work a lot better.
I might go out tomorrow and see if I can cut the Corian with the table saw. It's only turning 4-5K

Kirk, (603Country), I saw your shop today..... I doubt that any of your tables would succumb to lack of support! You have a great looking work space, well thought out and easy to get around in. Thanks for allowing me to look and dream.


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## Eric G. (Aug 2, 2011)

Dallas,

Corian has a mineral content, so it will dull the router bit. However, carbide is reccomended for cutting it. I didn't slow the speed down on the router when I did the template cut.


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## Ken Dolph (Jan 23, 2009)

*Corian*

Dal300

Corian and Silestone are two completely different things. Corian is no harder than hickory. Silestone is a little harder than granite. It is made of quartz crystals. DO NOT try to cut Silestone on your table saw. 

The mineral in Corian is Alumina Trihydrate and is as soft as talc. It will not hurt your carbide tooling.

Ken


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## Dal300 (Jul 14, 2011)

Thanks Ken and Eric.

I learn new stuff everyday!

It could be the router bits were dull, but they shouldn't be. I've only used them for about 2 years cutting joints in Hickory and Bodark.:wacko:


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

"It could be the router bits were dull, but they shouldn't be. I've only used them for about 2 years cutting joints in Hickory and Bodark." LOL


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## fullersr (Sep 20, 2011)

*Worth the effort?*



Eric G. said:


> Thanks for the process and the advice. When you say not worth the effort, do you mean you do not like the surface, or are unhappy with the result due to the flatness issue. I have machined corian before with good results, but was unsure how I could bond them together. To acheive flatness, I intend to use the table saw for a reference and a vacuum bag to clamp the pieces while the adhesive sets up.


I like the surface (but for the slight cambor). I spent a lot of time on it though and trashed a blade and several bits. At the end of the day, I think the MDF and laminate would have resulted in an equally fine surface without the hassle. 

Eric, It sounds like you're more experienced with the material than I was, so you may have fewer issues.


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## Eric G. (Aug 2, 2011)

fullersr said:


> Eric, It sounds like you're more experienced with the material than I was, so you may have fewer issues.


I am using the corian because I have the materials and I think the finished product will be cool and worth the effort. Laminate and MDF do make a fine surface. I already have a small mdf/laminate table and it works well. This router table is an upgrade for the shop. It will have the Jessem miter slide, Incra ultimate positioner, INCRA/Woodpeckers PRL-V2 Lift and Wixley digital readout. Why not add a cool top? Providing, of course, that I can get a flat surface to begin with.


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## red_tigrav (Sep 18, 2009)

I used two mdf panels for my new router cabinet top, 18mm each, (about 0,7 inch) screwed together,and it remain perfectly flat despite the weight of Dewalt DW625EK router and axminster router lift. The top panel was covered with a sheet of laminate bonded with contact cement.
Have a nice day.
Phil


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

James, the plywood/Masonite/Formica combination does not sag, at least not in the 9 years since I built my first table. It would take a lot more than the 20 lb router weight to make this combination sag.


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## visiongtr (Nov 4, 2011)

*corian top*



Yellow Hammer said:


> I'm thinking of using 1-3/8" solid surface counter top material (simulated granite, i.e., Silestone). I have an Incra LS Positioner, PC 7518 router and the Incra Woodpecker PRL-V2 router lift. My experience with MDF and phenolic is that they tend to sag due to the weight of the router and lift and must be aggressively supported in order to avoid the sagging.
> 
> Has anyone had any experience using solid surface countertop material as a router table top? Thanks for your input in advance.


i used to work at a cello shop and they guy that owned it had a buddy make him a router table top out of corian and it worked amazing. i just found a guy that will cnc the entire top out of corian for me plus a plexiglass insert plate for $240, very reasonable seeing how they are reaming people for $189 for mdf with melamine laminate on a router table top. if it comes out really well i will see if he is interested in making more of them and would have him post his contact info on here. i am going there tomorrow to lay it out and he will have it cut on saturday 11-5-2011


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## frosty50 (Dec 6, 2011)

I have a Corian top on my router table laminated to 3/4" lumber core plywood. This enable me to route in the grooves for my miter guage and fence tracks, and for different attachments/jigs. With the plywood under the Corian it has plenty of suppoert. To insure level, on each side of the cabinet and in the compartment for the router, i tap 1"x1 1/2" ange iron for 4 5/16-18 (I think this right thread size) cap screws. I've used this router cabinet for 15 years and have had to make on minor adjustments a couple times to insure the top is level. Top is 24"x 36" bolted in 4 places to the angle through the plywood. Works great.


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## rwl7532 (Sep 8, 2011)

MDF, Watco and wax.
Done.
No plate.
Pivot Fence made out of MDF.


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## Gbishop (Dec 22, 2011)

I purchased a large piece of corian at our local Habitat store. $8.00 for a 60 x 32 inch piece. Makes a great top.


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## rwl7532 (Sep 8, 2011)

Gbishop said:


> I purchased a large piece of corian at our local Habitat store. $8.00 for a 60 x 32 inch piece. Makes a great top.


How thick?


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## bobcat65 (Jun 12, 2015)

AxlMyk said:


> I used 2 plies of 3/4" MDF glued together. Makes a great table.
> Use an insert plate. You will wish you did.


Just as a data point, I glued 2 3/4 BB plys together and the whole thing warped across its face. No doubt this is owing to the fact that everything stays in my unheated, uninsulated garage. 

that's one thing to think about- do you do your woodworking in your shop or in your driveway  ? Because if you do it in your driveway and store your stuff in the garage, weather matters, a lot and some of the otherwise common and good advice and techniques you read may not be the best ideas for your situation. 

When enduring straightness matters, and when doesn't it?, I go with metal. Incra for my jigs, miters and 80/20 for my fences. I have a 4'x2' aluminum sheet 1/4 inch thick that is going to be turned into a router table top for my new LS 17 from Incra. Probably cover it with some kind of slippery stuff to get away from the friction if just waxing doesn't do the trick.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

bobcat65 said:


> Just as a data point, I glued 2 3/4 BB plys together and the whole thing warped across its face. No doubt this is owing to the fact that everything stays in my unheated, uninsulated garage.
> .


Bob I would been a little choked about that . I just about bought a 60" by 60" sheet of 3/4 BB today and was going to do exactly like you said . It had a bit of a warp in the sheet so I said to heck with it and went with MDF .
That BB was 90 bucks before tax  

Thanks for the heads up


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

You're going to be somewhat choked if you don't get some climate control in that icebox of a shop, Rick. Mind you, if you don't actually build the RT it'll be moot...


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

My Router Workshop table has been around for 8 years and still perfect. This table works outside, has temperature extremes when I heat up the garage to work in winter, has held all types of routers up to 3-1/4 hp models with no sagging.

I expect the same from my version that has a phenolic impregnated BB plywood top instead of the Formica on the original.

Gary, Plexiglas is not a good choice for a router table insert. It will warp over time. You might want to consider the $13 Grizzly mounting plate which has removable inserts and accepts PC style guide bushings.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

DaninVan said:


> You're going to be somewhat choked if you don't get some climate control in that icebox of a shop, Rick. Mind you, if you don't actually build the RT it'll be moot...


Naw , I'm building a torsion box underneith . This puppy will stay straighter than a laser after dark


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

RainMan1 said:


> Naw , I'm building a torsion box underneath . This puppy will stay straighter than a laser after dark


The last table I built had a 5/8" thick melamine coated particle board top with 3/8" deep grooves cut in for T track for the fence. It was in a uninsulated shed in Northern Alberta that went from 40+ Celsius in the summer to -45C in the winter and it hasn't warped in 6 years. I did put it on a good frame (torsion box) with cross members next to the insert plate. 

As I've said before, I think the laminating process is the problem in many cases. When you glue one to the other the glue around the edges dries first, leaving no where for the water in the remaining glue to go except into the panels. The remaining water is what is causing the warpage I believe. If I was going to laminate 2 pieces together, and I won't because I see no need to, I would screw them together from underneath.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Charles that's good to know . I will use screws from underneith to put the layers together then and not use my weld bond glue except where the torsion box is attached to the bottom piece . I really wouldn't have thought that would be an issue , but I guess I would have found out the hard way


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

I've never heard anyone who used 1 thickness for a top have a problem with warp or sag as long as they had adequate support under over the 5 years I've been on the forum. Not even one. I have heard lots of people who laminated pieces together say they have had problems. Those are facts and there has to be reasons for it. 

As I've pointed out before, your laminate covered countertop is made from 5/8" particle board and it takes a lot of abuse and will still stay flat for decades as long as it doesn't get water between the lam and the panel. That's another fact. For some reason people seem to panic when they start planning a router table and think it has to be 1 1/2 to 3" thick to work. Relax, it's just a router table. You're not going to drop it out of a helicopter. I hope.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Well this is great timing cause tommorow I'm building mine (depending on the severity of the hangover) 
Charles I was going to use my Festool router to flush the arborite where the overhang is . I don't need a laminate router do I ?

Regarding the thickness I thought that seeing as I'm routing in T track and a miter track that it would only leave me with areas 1/4" thick , that was my reason for going with pieces of 3/4" . Although I guess if I don't break it and put the torsion box on right away I'd be ok? 
To bad there wasn't any 1" at the store


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

you are going to build your torsion frame...
you are going mount the single thickness top to the torsion frame...
you will leave the bottom of the torsion frame open for now...
you will do a rough layout for tracks, fence and and the router plate so no fasteners will be hit by cutting, routering and drilling operations...
you are going to glue and mechanically fasten the top and frame together by countersinking screws through the top and into the torsion web...
you will now add the arbonite to the top...
you will now proceed to install the router plate and dado for tracks... 
you will make sure the plate's outside rim rests directly on top of the torsion frame's webs if additional webs need to be added to achieve this...
you will compute track locations off of the plate...
you will now install the fence, that too will be computed off the plate...
you will add any *REAL WOOD* blocking as required to the under side of the top the mounting hardware/screws of the plate, track and fence.....
you *WILL NOT* use MDF for blocking or the torsion frame...
you will add any blocking to facilitate mounting the top to the RT cabinet...
you will add the bottom plywood to the torsion frame...
you will not forget to lay out accesses to any fasteners used in the mounting of the plate and fence and install them...


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Stick I'm really afraid to secure the torsion box first , because after its laminated and if I make one mistake for the tracking I'll be screwed . I feel if I build the top first and laminate it , if I'm successful putting in the T-track and miter slot track , then I can glue the torsion box on ? 
I know it sounds backwards


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

RainMan1 said:


> Stick I'm really afraid to secure the torsion box first , because after its laminated and if I make one mistake for the tracking I'll be screwed . I feel if I build the top first and laminate it , if I'm successful putting in the T-track and miter slot track , then I can glue the torsion box on ?
> I know it sounds backwards


so tell me just how you plan on fastening the top to the torsion frame AFTER the laminate is installed


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

RainMan1 said:


> I know it sounds backwards


because after its laminated and if I make one mistake for the tracking I'll be screwed . 
*no you won't because the bottom is open for corrections, addendums and adjustments...*

I feel if I build the top first and laminate it , if I'm successful putting in the T-track and miter slot track , then I can glue the torsion box on ?
*if you are relying on glue only...
good luck w/ that....*


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Well Stick if if I have the two layers of 3/4"MDF screwed together at first , then glue the arborite on the top and sides , then route in the channels for the miter slots and cut in the hole for the plate , I should be ok to do the torsion box last I think . 

My concern is if the plate doesn't fit right or if I make a mistake routing in the channels for the T channel and miter slot that if the torsion box is glued on I'll have to start completely over . I do have the Festool track and the other accessories to guide my router , so I shouldn't screw up the channels IMO , but who knows 

Gee you'd think I was building piano here lol .


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

so you put one top together w/ the torsion box and laminate...

you said you bought a sheet of MDF... use a chunk for the finished top and the rest of the sheet perfecting the cuts and lay out...
god help us if you were to try a piano....

just grow some can do attitude/confidence and get it on...


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Rick another alternative to countersinking screws is to attach 3/4 x 3/4 or 1" x 1" strips to the sides of the pieces in your torsion box frame. This is the same method I've always used to join counter tops to my cabinet carcases. You pre-drill holes horizontal and vertical in them and put 2 or 3 screws sideways into the frame and 2 or 3 up into the bottom of the top. That way if you need to replace it later it's a piece of cake. It is a bit of a knuckle buster putting the screws in but to me it's worth the effort. This tool helps and I think every shop should have one. Reversible Ratchet Screwdriver - Lee Valley Tools General Tools makes one which is available at many tool or hardware stores so you don't necessarily have to go to Lee Valley to get one. Make sure the holes in the cleats are clearance holes and not pilot sized holes and mount them slightly lower than the top edges of the sides so that when you tighten the screws it sucks the top down on the torsion frame.

I also wasn't saying that you should use 5/8" material, only that you could and it will still work. If you can get flat 1" ply, mdf, or particle board then go for it. I made sure that I had bracing under the table near my t-track grooves for strength. In fact, directly under would be good. 

Otherwise, FOLLOW STICK'S INSTRUCTIONS IMPLICITLY.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Especially the " FOLLOW STICK'S INSTRUCTIONS" part. Just be glad he's not sending you a bill, Rick!


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Guys I had no intentions of screwing the torsion box to the top . I was going to use my dado and make interlocking pieces and use a lot of Weld Bond glue to hold it . That glue is quite incredible once it sets up . But I will do all of the above and leave the router plate and tracking for last as it makes more sense . 
Hopefully I don't have a slip up routing in the channel . As I said I have the Festool track so it should go smoothly 

I do have a biscuit joiner if I wanted to biscuit the torsion box on , but that would be next to impossible to get those measurements right


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## woodknots (Mar 7, 2012)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> The last table I built had a 5/8" thick melamine coated particle board top with 3/8" deep grooves cut in for T track for the fence. It was in a uninsulated shed in Northern Alberta that went from 40+ Celsius in the summer to -45C in the winter and it hasn't warped in 6 years. I did put it on a good frame (torsion box) with cross members next to the insert plate.
> 
> As I've said before, I think the laminating process is the problem in many cases. When you glue one to the other the glue around the edges dries first, leaving no where for the water in the remaining glue to go except into the panels. The remaining water is what is causing the warpage I believe. If I was going to laminate 2 pieces together, and I won't because I see no need to, I would screw them together from underneath.


Completely agree with this. Years ago I made a weekend workbench (2 x 4 lower frame, legs, stretchers, aprons held together with threaded rod and nuts). Top was made from two pieces 3/4 inch mdf, screwed from underneath, no glue. Still as flat as it was on the day it was built.

Rick, another option to consider for attaching your torsion box to the table top is with pocket screws. They hold well, and no fear of them coming through the top. Only had to ensure they aren't located where your track and plate will be.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

vchiarelli said:


> Completely agree with this. Years ago I made a weekend workbench (2 x 4 lower frame, legs, stretchers, aprons held together with threaded rod and nuts). Top was made from two pieces 3/4 inch mdf, screwed from underneath, no glue. Still as flat as it was on the day it was built.
> 
> Rick, another option to consider for attaching your torsion box to the table top is with pocket screws. They hold well, and no fear of them coming through the top. Only had to ensure they aren't located where your track and plate will be.


Vince I never thought of that . I did buy a shiney new Kreg pocket screw jig after watching Mike Stringer use his . Good thinking !


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

Too many options,too many tools,too many decisions, not enough time , LOL.
Herb


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

RainMan1 said:


> I do have a biscuit joiner if I wanted to biscuit the torsion box on , but that would be next to impossible to get those measurements right


The last table I made was meant to be left in Alberta when it was time for me to move back to BC so I biscuited the top on. It's easier than you think but there is a trick I learned at the mantle factory that makes it work better. Whatever dimension we were working on on its edge we would center the cutter to. We would make a cut and then flip the piece over and make another cut beside and partially into. If you couldn't tell one from the other it was centered. For some reason this works way more accurately than using it un-centered. You still want to work from the same side of your layout lines but doing it this way always fits.

Of course the problem with using biscuits and glue is that it isn't coming apart again.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Herb Stoops said:


> Too many options,too many tools,too many decisions, not enough time , LOL.
> Herb


Yes and my hangover is still bad on day 2 . I need plywood but not sure if I am capable of driving to pick some up . 
Why I go over board drinking when I know I want to accomplish something is beyond me 

Herb I think I've got this figured out now though , thanks to you guys . If the table wasn't a proprietary size I would have just thrown an Incra top in and called it a day , but the more I looked at it I thought it was going to look kinda tacky . It would have been cheaper to use an Incra top , but I guess this way I get a learning experience as well as the satisfaction that it will look factory. 

Then I'll tackle building the cabinet for another router table with my Incra top .


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## Ratbob (Apr 6, 2015)

For me it's all about the journey Rick. I ruined my first attempt at a router table when the screws I used for the banding pushed up the edges of the laminate. (yes, I pre-drilled them but they still expanded the particle board. I have since replaced my old straight countersink bits with a nice set of tapered bits).

My second version has some blemishes since it was the very first time I had ever used a router, but it is fully functional and beautiful in my eyes. Not only did I learn some valuable lessons on my first attempt, ver. 2 helped re-purpose ver. 1 to be a matching drill press table which I just finished today.

Just pick a course, take your time, and enjoy the trip!


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

I hope you are using the Kreg jig.........VBG


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

jw2170 said:


> I hope you are using the Kreg jig.........VBG


James I haven't used it yet as it's still new in the box a long with other numerous tools .





Ratbob said:


> For me it's all about the journey Rick. I ruined my first attempt at a router table when the screws I used for the banding pushed up the edges of the laminate. (yes, I pre-drilled them but they still expanded the particle board. I have since replaced my old straight countersink bits with a nice set of tapered bits).


Jeff that was a concern of mine as I thought with my luck there would be an expansion problem .


I do have one question guys . What is the best way to countersink the holes in the T track for the screws ? I do have some countersink bits but I think there for wood. I bought some other bit but not I see it to wide to get in. 

This is what I normally use for wood , but would it be ok going threw aluminium ?


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

It might not be the ideal thing to use but it should work.


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## Ratbob (Apr 6, 2015)

RainMan1 said:


> . . . I do have one question guys . What is the best way to countersink the holes in the T track for the screws ? I do have some countersink bits but I think there for wood. I bought some other bit but not I see it to wide to get in . . .


If the track is deep enough you might be able to get by with pan head screws, I have some that work just fine. It would be tough to find proper counter sink bit that will fit through the T track slot. If I really wanted a counter sink I'd just use the biggest drill bit I could fit through the slot.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Ratbob said:


> If the track is deep enough you might be able to get by with pan head screws, I have some that work just fine. It would be tough to find proper counter sink bit that will fit through the T track slot. If I really wanted a counter sink I'd just use the biggest drill bit I could fit through the slot.


Jeff the ones I've seen online were countersunk . I'm liking your drill bit idea . A guy could drill the small hole then follow with a big bit with the depth set properly .
Thanks for heads up , simple yet I couldn't see it


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

Rick, I used wood screws on the "T" tracks for my drill press and they pulled out under clamping pressure. Had to go with thru bolts, i.e. Machine screws and nits. I countersunk the heads with a LV 3/8" CS.
Herb


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Herb Stoops said:


> Rick, I used wood screws on the "T" tracks for my drill press and they pulled out under clamping pressure. Had to go with thru bolts, i.e. Machine screws and nits. I countersunk the heads with a LV 3/8" CS.
> Herb


Geez this is not what I want to hear 
Well I guess I could get machine screws and go all the way threw . I'm sure going to have to carefully orchestrate this with a torsion box underneith though , and I hate math lol 

Herb is it possible that you sunk your T track to low and it was forced up when you applied pressure with whatever was attached? I was going to make sure I was dead level with the top .
My miter slot is made for nuts to hold it down I think , it's the fence T track that I was going to screw. 
At one time I was only going to use dual track for all three pieces , but I've decided to go with T track to hold the fence


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

I used the track for clamping on the drill press. For a miter gauge, it shouldn't be a problem, and the fence might be OK too. At any rate you could try it with wood screws and see how it goes and if they pull out, put thru bolts in it. 
herb


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Herb Stoops said:


> I used the track for clamping on the drill press. For a miter gauge, it shouldn't be a problem, and the fence might be OK too. At any rate you could try it with wood screws and see how it goes and if they pull out, put thru bolts in it.
> herb


I was thinking the same thing. I better make sure the ribs of the torsion box don't obstruct key locations though.
I'm almost tempted to glue a few strips of aluminum angle iron underneith the router top and put a kibosh on the torsion box ?

Naw , do a torsion box. I'm on my way to HD to get glue and plywood


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## Ratbob (Apr 6, 2015)

RainMan1 said:


> I was thinking the same thing. I better make sure the ribs of the torsion box don't obstruct key locations though.
> I'm almost tempted to glue a few strips of aluminum angle iron underneith the router top and put a kibosh on the torsion box ?
> 
> Naw , do a torsion box. I'm on my way to HD to get glue and plywood


Rick, if your frame interferes with the screw location, just re-position the hole and countersink. An extra ho or two never hurt nobody!:nerd:

*note: just make sure that the torsion box frame doesn't have a run directly underneath the length of the dado for your T track.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Ratbob said:


> Rick, if your frame interferes with the screw location, just re-position the hole and countersink. An extra ho or two never hurt nobody!:nerd:


Yes I was thinking the same thing , but if I'm careful with my design I should be ok .
I'd almost like to mount the router plate turned 90 degrees from normal , as it would give me more real estate for the torsion box underneath on the sides , but I think it wouldn't look right. I don't want my router table to think it's ugly and get a complex


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

RainMan1 said:


> Yes I was thinking the same thing , but if I'm careful with my design I should be ok .
> I'd almost like to mount the router plate turned 90 degrees from normal , as it would give me more real estate for the torsion box underneath on the sides , but I think it wouldn't look right


Don't worry about the looks,do what ever works the best, and it won't look that bad if you do a good job of routing it in,which I know you will.
Herb


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Ratbob said:


> *note: just make sure that the torsion box frame doesn't have a run directly underneath the length of the dado for your T track.


why not...

then the track screws could go through the top and into the rib...


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## Ratbob (Apr 6, 2015)

Stick486 said:


> why not...
> 
> then the track screws could go through the top and into the rib...


Sorry, I could have been clearer. The note was to make sure that Rick has clearance to switch to a machine screw and nut if his wood screws pull out. You're absolutely right Stick, using longer wood screws sunk into the rib of the torsion box should give ample tie-down for the track.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Ok I have to test my dado blade again . I think my arbour on my TS was kinda short for doing a 3/4" dado (had only a few threads on) Thinking 1/2" now for the torsion box ?


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

I have to take the sawblade washer off for mine to do 3/4" , but the dado blades are stout enough that I don't need it. Maybe you will have to resort to the festool and straight edge and route the dadoes across the sheet then rip them to width on the TS.
Herb


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Herb Stoops said:


> I have to take the sawblade washer off for mine to do 3/4" , but the dado blades are stout enough that I don't need it. Maybe you will have to resort to the festool and straight edge and route the dadoes across the sheet then rip them to width on the TS.
> Herb


Geez I'd hate to route all those dados in the torsion box. I've gotta figure out how to on my table saw . I'm going for a nap now lol

I suspect I'll never drink again


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## Ratbob (Apr 6, 2015)

Just take two passes with the dado blade Rick! Set your stack for 1/2", add a 1/4" spacer between the work piece and a stop block, take a pass, remove spacer, take second pass.


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## Stargate (Oct 2, 2014)

jlord said:


> The only problem is it will sag over time with the larger routers. Unless you give it extra support underneath.


Are we talking about routers here or women? "problem is it will sag over time". LOL


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## woodknots (Mar 7, 2012)

RainMan1 said:


> Geez I'd hate to route all those dados in the torsion box. I've gotta figure out how to on my table saw . I'm going for a nap now lol
> 
> I suspect I'll never drink again


Rick:
No need to route or TS dados for the torsion box. Here's a video of a TV show. As background, David Marks is a master woodworker, furniture designer (look up his website). He had a TV show over a few seasons. Anyway, his torsion box is made up of long strips, with shorter pieces in between to make up the "boxes" forming the torsion box.

https://vimeo.com/5082731

Vince


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## 4DThinker (Feb 16, 2014)

I strongly questions the wisdom of using MDF for a torsion box. To start with, it has no torsional resistance itself. I've seen the stuff drape when laid over 55 gallon drums. I've seen it snap across a long strip when loaded in the middle. Try twisting a piece. Not hard to break that way. It is a little good in compression, but horrible in tension. 

I've done no scientific study, but been using/regretting the stuff for 30+ years now. It has it's uses, but for anything structural should be avoided completely. A torsion box is structural. JMHO.


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## Stargate (Oct 2, 2014)

Check out how Steve built this torsion box for his SawStop Outfield Table - *SawStop Outfeed Table Pt 2 B* - https://goo.gl/f9TYri


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

a torsion box needs a through grid of boxes...
it also has to have a fixed top and bottom covering all of the grid...

take a hollow core door...
MDF frame, cardboard honey comb and a press board skin on each side...
set it between two saw horses... the door will sag on it's own in short order... add just a little weight and it will separate and break...
change the MDF frame to real wood, the press board to ply or luan and it holds pretty well.. even when weighted..
take one of the skins off though and all bets are off...

so the secret is a complete quality frame, skins on both sides and no MDF material or it's ilk any where's...


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

I believe, 4D, that you need to take into account the plane in which the force is applied.

In the box, is it not a vertical plane?


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

I wouldn't use MDF for the stringers in the box either, it's just too flexible. Real wood is the best with plywood a close second only because it's harder to securely attach the skins to ply because you are splitting the laminations if you use fasteners. Glued it's not an issue and the ply is probably superior to real wood. Both ply and OSB are used to make joists as long as there are caps or flanges along the edges just like an I-beam has flanges to prevent torsion.

In the end, we are talking about a router table here so unless you plan on parking your SUV on it at times it is probably way stronger than you need it to be with the torsion box under it.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> I wouldn't use MDF for the stringers in the box either, it's just too flexible. Real wood is the best with plywood a close second only because it's harder to securely attach the skins to ply because you are splitting the laminations if you use fasteners. Glued it's not an issue and the ply is probably superior to real wood. Both ply and OSB are used to make joists as long as there are caps or flanges along the edges just like an I-beam has flanges to prevent torsion.
> 
> In the end, we are talking about a router table here so unless you plan on parking your SUV on it at times it is probably way stronger than you need it to be with the torsion box under it.


Charles , what would be cost effective for the stringers using real wood ? Pine would be about the cheapest I think as most wood I look at around is a small fortune per foot . Even pine would be a up there though . Maybe I should be saving pallets at work?


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

RainMan1 said:


> Charles , what would be cost effective for the stringers using real wood ? Pine would be about the cheapest I think as most wood I look at around is a small fortune per foot . Even pine would be a up there though . Maybe I should be saving pallets at work?


Where are you looking for wood, Rick?
1 X 4 SPF 'strapping' is kiln dried and CHEAP! If you look in the 14' and 16' bays/racks you'll find really nice stuff...way better quality than the 8' pile (generally speaking).
You're cutting it up anyway so if it's not _perfectly_ straight it won't matter. You're going to joint it and rip it to width in any case.
I always keep a bunch on the shelf for immediate use as opposed to driving into town for want of a couple of pieces.
If it's Spruce, other than for exterior apps, its very strong and lovely to machine...I love the smell as a bonus.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Not sure what SPF strapping is but I'll ask at HD

Actually I'll stick with plywood as I don't have a jointer . I think you'd need a jointer to do it right IMO , to bad I don't have a router table :lol:


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

*SPF* is the stamp on the face of the lumber. It stands for Spruce/Pine/Fir...all Interior and Northern Species lumped into one category, except D. Fir.
The other common lumber stamps here in BC are DFir and HemFir...did I miss any?
Check out your RONA branch, Rick, and Don's Bldg. Supplies, assuming they're still in business(?)
You really need some 1x4 SPF sitting on your lumber rack; once you've got it handy you'll be surprised how often you'll reach for it; temporary bits and pieces, small parts, stands for stuff, etc.
I try to keep at least a doz. lengths in stock.


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## timbertailor (Oct 4, 2009)

Gene Howe said:


> The reasons we didn't use Silestone in our new kitchen were it's propensity for scratches and it's non-resistance to scorching.
> Scorching wouldn't be a problem in a router table top, but I'd bet scratching would.
> My top is 24"X24" of 1 1/8 MDF covered with a pretty tough laminate. It is "aggressively" supported for the weight of the 7518 and Jessem lift.
> When we were researching counter top materials, we were advised to "aggressively" support the engineered stuff also. Especially, around the cast iron sink we used. I'll bet my PC and lift weighs in at just a bit under the weight of our sink. (without water:haha
> We ended up with granite on the counters. Now that would make a great router table top.



Not sure where you got your information but Silestone is a quartz material. It is far more resistant to heat than granite. It is also harder than granite and is more resistant to scratches.

And, like glass, is impervious to stains and does not calcify. And, once installed, has no seams.

That is why it is &75\ft vs. $15-25$ for granite.

But, I would not use either. No real advantage and I would rather not damage my router bits should they come in contact with the table top.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

DaninVan said:


> *SPF* is the stamp on the face of the lumber. It stands for Spruce/Pine/Fir...all Interior and Northern Species lumped into one category, except D. Fir.
> The other common lumber stamps here in BC are DFir and HemFir...did I miss any?
> Check out your RONA branch, Rick, and Don's Bldg. Supplies, assuming they're still in business(?)
> You really need some 1x4 SPF sitting on your lumber rack; once you've got it handy you'll be surprised how often you'll reach for it; temporary bits and pieces, small parts, stands for stuff, etc.
> I try to keep at least a doz. lengths in stock.


My question would be though , if the wood was not perfectly straight it wouldn't work for the stringers . If a guy had a jointer he could make two straight parallel sides , so it's pretty much back to ripping plywood again


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Rick; use your TS as the jointer. Lots of Youtube clips on how to do that. You do _not_ need the full depth of a 1x4!
You're only talking about 3'+/- lengths here.
With the tops and bottoms glued on, there isn't going to be any movement in 3' of stringer.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

DaninVan said:


> Rick; use your TS as the jointer. Lots of Youtube clips on how to do that. You do _not_ need the full depth of a 1x4!
> You're only talking about 3'+/- lengths here.
> With the tops and bottoms glued on, there isn't going to be any movement in 3' of stringer.


Yes I'm liking the 3" part as that's fine . Forgot about the TS as a jointer . A track saw would work to in reality for the first cut


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Rough cut all to length first. It'll simplify the jointing and ripping to width part.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

My last table used a combination of leftover spruce 1x fence boards and 3/4 ply as a make up for what was left. Pallets would work fine once you got rid of any nails. Nobody is going to see it so stiff and straight is all you are interested in.

The F in SPF stands for balsam fir. Sometimes called silver fir although it may also be a variation in that family. A Forestry employee told me once that D fir isn't really a true fir. I think he said it's a member of the hemlock family.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

?Elaho Giant? ? 1,000-year-old Douglas fir ? saved by quick action of B.C. fire crews | National Post


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> My last table used a combination of leftover spruce 1x fence boards and 3/4 ply as a make up for what was left. Pallets would work fine once you got rid of any nails. Nobody is going to see it so stiff and straight is all you are interested in.
> 
> The F in SPF stands for balsam fir. Sometimes called silver fir although it may also be a variation in that family. A Forestry employee told me once that D fir isn't really a true fir. I think he said it's a member of the hemlock family.


Correct.
That is what I read too that DF is in fact a Hemlock,not a true fir.

Herb


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Dan I've been over by Port Renfrew to see the Red Creek Fir. 275 feet tall and they say that the top 75 feet broke off in a storm around a hundred years ago. It's pretty impressive. It reminds me of the beginning of the Canadian kids TV show that ran for a few decades, i.e. The Friendly Giant. Each show started with "Look up, look waay up".


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

I was up looking at some D.Fir lumber at a small local custom milling operation today. The owner mentioned that he'd been running Fir offcuts and scrap through his chipper last week when he noticed the chips coming out black...and then the smoke started. Not something you want to see in the middle of a sawmill operation...with tinder dry forest all around you. (They got it out with no serious damage)
I should have asked if he was having a 'Fire Sale'.
His Cedar was beautiful stuff but $2.20 Bd ft. 
I think the D. Fir was about the same. Both clear.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

DaninVan said:


> I was up looking at some D.Fir lumber at a small local custom milling operation today. The owner mentioned that he'd been running Fir offcuts and scrap through his chipper last week when he noticed the chips coming out black...and then the smoke started. Not something you want to see in the middle of a sawmill operation...with tinder dry forest all around you. (They got it out with no serious damage)
> I should have asked if he was having a 'Fire Sale'.
> His Cedar was beautiful stuff but $2.20 Bd ft.
> I think the D. Fir was about the same. Both clear.


That's not that bad. I bought a 9' clear cedar 2 x 4 at Windsor Ply quite a few yeas ago to make moldings out of of and it was $20 at the time.


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## koolrebel (Aug 25, 2015)

jlord said:


> The only problem is it will sag over time with the larger routers. Unless you give it extra support underneath.


This could be done during the build and would not be an issuehttp://www.routerforums.com/images/RouterForums_2015/smilies/tango_face_devil.png


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## Semipro (Mar 22, 2013)

*Welcome*



koolrebel said:


> This could be done during the build and would not be an issuehttp://www.routerforums.com/images/RouterForums_2015/smilies/tango_face_devil.png


Hello and welcome to the forum. Bill


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