# Ancient Japanese joinery



## N'awlins77 (Feb 25, 2011)

Wow, check out these elaborate Ancient Japanese joinery methods. 

Ancient Japanese technique to make wood buildings is a pleasure to watch


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

N'awlins77 said:


> Wow, check out these elaborate Ancient Japanese joinery methods.
> 
> Ancient Japanese technique to make wood buildings is a pleasure to watch


Lee, That is very interesting, thanks for posting. All hand work looks like ,no chainsaws there.LOL

Herb


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

Its very unlikely that in my lifetime I would ever have a need to do that kind of joinery, but dang, I'd love to learn how to do it that well...impressive


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## Artemix (Aug 10, 2014)

Like Leonardo da Vinci once said: "simplicity is the ultimate sophistication".


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## Knothead47 (Feb 10, 2010)

That is impressive. I wonder if the cuts, finger joints, etc., were done by hand or power tools. I didn't hear any power tools in the background.
Thanks for posting the video!


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

Hey John... typically when demonstrating traditional Japanese joinery, they guys go old school. no power tools. I've looked at alot of Japanese joinery video's and never seen em use power tools. I can see why they perfected the chisel


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## Ghidrah (Oct 21, 2008)

Probably cause the joinery is the finished product. I came close to getting a job with a post and beam co 30 yrs ago, they were willing to hire and teach but they weren't local. Based in western Ma. they were gypsy framers, all over the NE region. There are few cos left that can do that kind of work and its always in the top end homes.


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## N'awlins77 (Feb 25, 2011)

TwoSkies57 said:


> Hey John... typically when demonstrating traditional Japanese joinery, they guys go old school. no power tools. I've looked at alot of Japanese joinery video's and never seen em use power tools. I can see why they perfected the chisel


Wow, if those cuts, square holes, notches and things were done without power tools (and I don't doubt they are), that would make a better video then just the designs of the joints!! Glad to see everyone enjoyed it as much as I did. I was in awe!!


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Like Bill I think that was 100% hand done.


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## AndyL (Jun 3, 2011)

Wow those are pretty amazing. On the first one I thought he'd made a mistake when I saw there was a slight gap at one end of the joint, but of course he had not, it was the hole for the wedge to disassemble the joint. Who needs ugly nuts and bolts!


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## Badlandsbuzz (Jul 21, 2010)

Yes what they do is amazing and I heard many stories about their skills, from my grandfather. 

My grandfather was a carpenter / cabinetmaker and worked in the industry fabricating, assembling, and finishing wooden frames for the old Brockway trucks, prior to the sheet metal skins being put on. He also did the same type of work for Thompson boats back in the day, here in upstate NY prior to WWII. He volunteered to serve in the Army during that war, but was classified as "not young enough to be fighting at the front lines". He was able to enlist, but was always assigned to special duties.

Because of his skills he was sent to the Philippines after it was liberated and then went on to Japan after the smoke had settled. The US would set up woodworking shops, in order to bring and teach "western type techniques" to them. My grandfather ended up learning much more from them, than he could ever teach them. Besides for some reason they just weren't interested in learning, what we had to offer at the time, go figure.


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## 64 ford (Apr 21, 2013)

It would be nice to be that skilled but labor costs would kill you in the real world.
Dennis


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## Artemix (Aug 10, 2014)

What I meant by my quote, is that even if it looks pretty in the eyes, it's a monumental waste of time and effort, to accomplish something that can be made in several different more efficient ways.

After all, objects are meant to serve a purpose, they are tools, that's it, they don't have value otherwise.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Beautiful workmanship if you are working for a client willing to pay 10 or 20 times the cost of conventional joinery methods. Nice to look at though.


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## Ghidrah (Oct 21, 2008)

Its an art form mind set, more than likely they could do the work with power tools if they wanted to. Maybe power tools block the adherents from being the wood, Zen.

How many of us can scary sharp our planes and chisels without jigs and guides, sharpen our own hand saws? Look at a section of rough lumber and instantly know what its good and not good for by the species and when, where and how it was harvested?

The 1st framer I worked for that though I was worth keeping, the 1st time I was in on rafter construction asked me how to get the correct length of a rafter. I answered the book, "A framing guide and steel square" (bought it in 1981, still have it). What if you don't have the book? The side of the Framing square. What if the house is 24' 2 1/2" wide? Use a calculator. What if you don't have a calc? Find somebody else to do it. This went on till doing it long hand popped up, pencil and paper, or wood, lots of wood around.

I still drive by and look into new house/building construction and see incorrect hips valleys and the occasional gambrel, no one seems to want them anymore around our area. I still see botched sidewall, gable and halfround window clapboard sunbursts. All because they didn't know and or care to do the math correctly. 

If you can do it upstairs and with your hands you don't need all the other things. So I taught me how to do the math by hand and used the calculator to verify the results till I was confident. Frankly long hand blows, but eventually said crew began calling me the doctor, which stuck. I was the idiot that spent the time figuring out how to many ways to do things. I know they were making fun of me in the open but I took pride in the fact that people began coming to me for answers regarding the trade.


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## darsev (Feb 3, 2012)

Japanese have a very different way of looking at things. When you go there and see timber buildings that are centuries old, you understand that they build for the future, not to a price. They have a very earthquake prone country and the rigidity of steel and concrete can be a liability which loses out to the flexibility of timber. With the size of those beams they were for a building much larger than a house, and the way they were dressed even at that stage of construction makes me think they were highly visible when the job was completed. All in all, I think they were making some sort of public building to function, survive earthquakes, and be admired probably into the next millenium, whereas we would build something that would be lucky to surive into the next generation. 

Darryl


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## Artemix (Aug 10, 2014)

If you want to be efficient and to have something that last and is noble, don't use wood. Even if we like wood, we like to work with it, and it looks cool, it's far from the best way to build something.

And in the end, what matters is efficiency, tools are meant to be used.

Now if we talk about art, that's completely different of course.


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## darsev (Feb 3, 2012)

Artemix said:


> If you want to be efficient and to have something that last and is noble, don't use wood. Even if we like wood, we like to work with it, and it looks cool, it's far from the best way to build something.
> 
> And in the end, what matters is efficiency, tools are meant to be used.
> 
> Now if we talk about art, that's completely different of course.


Pablo,

I'm a bit lost when you say wood doesn't last. I live in a timber house that is a century old. I made a chess board for my grandson out of Huon Pine that is at least 450 years old. The oldest timber building I am aware of is the Horyu-ji temple in Japan that was built in 607 AD. I reckon you can make things out of timber that last. As far as efficiency is concerned, a lot depends on context. l don't know about your country, but timber is a major material in the construction industry here in Australia, which wouldn't be so if it were an inefficient material as the housing market is pretty price sensitive.

Help me understand what you were trying to say. I do think that the construction techniques used in the video are specialised and have a niche market though. Is this what you were trying to say, or something else?

Darryl


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## AndyL (Jun 3, 2011)

darsev said:


> I'm a bit lost when you say wood doesn't last. I live in a timber house that is a century old. I made a chess board for my grandson out of Huon Pine that is at least 450 years old. The oldest timber building I am aware of is the Horyu-ji temple in Japan that was built in 607 AD. I reckon you can make things out of timber that last. As far as efficiency is concerned, a lot depends on context. l don't know about your country, but timber is a major material in the construction industry here in Australia, which wouldn't be so if it were an inefficient material as the housing market is pretty price sensitive.


It's all relative I suppose. Certainly wooden buildings can last a long time, there are many timber-framed or half-timbered buildings in Europe that are 500 or more years old. But on the other hand, there are also masonry buildings that are much older. For example the Pantheon in Rome is made of concrete and has been in continuous use for 2000 years.


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## Artemix (Aug 10, 2014)

darsev said:


> Pablo,
> 
> I'm a bit lost when you say wood doesn't last. I live in a timber house that is a century old. I made a chess board for my grandson out of Huon Pine that is at least 450 years old. The oldest timber building I am aware of is the Horyu-ji temple in Japan that was built in 607 AD. I reckon you can make things out of timber that last. As far as efficiency is concerned, a lot depends on context. l don't know about your country, but timber is a major material in the construction industry here in Australia, which wouldn't be so if it were an inefficient material as the housing market is pretty price sensitive.
> 
> ...


I'm saying that as efficiency and lifespan goes, with the current technology we have today, wood is probably the last material I would use to build.. anything.

It fulfilled it's role, it allowed the human race to build amazing and relatively long lasting buildings and artifacts.

Also timber is not practical to use as material and it also hurts the ecosystem unnecessarily.

Maybe I'm talking from a context that I'm not sharing with you, so it sounds a little extreme what I'm talking about, but if you want take a read at this: TZM - FAQ

I strongly believe that the way we live should be defined by the ideas the Zeitgeist Movement proposes. And under that premise, in my opinion, wood is not ideal to use as building material.


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## darsev (Feb 3, 2012)

Artemix said:


> Maybe I'm talking from a context that I'm not sharing with you, so it sounds a little extreme what I'm talking about, but if you want take a read at this: TZM - FAQ
> 
> I strongly believe that the way we live should be defined by the ideas the Zeitgeist Movement proposes. And under that premise, in my opinion, wood is not ideal to use as building material.


Pablo,

I have looked at that manifesto and all I can say is that I have reached very different conclusions on the evidence that I have seen. For example, the section on finance seems to overlook the old gold standard and the current Basel III reforms. A woodworking forum is not the place to have discussions such as this, and I am only commenting so that you are aware of my thoughts on this subject, and will not make any further comments on this.

Darryl


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## Ghidrah (Oct 21, 2008)

World wide, the lumber industry has been involved in the development of fast growing trees since the 1950s. I think I read somewhere that they're having much success with hardwoods too. Cos like Weyerhaeuser began replanting harvested sectors around the same time, watching and choosing the faster growing trees. Cos began engineering umpteen yrs back some are in use today although I don't know if any are in the construction end. Fruit trees have been messed with for thousands on yrs. Look at corn.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

AndyL said:


> Wow those are pretty amazing. On the first one I thought he'd made a mistake when I saw there was a slight gap at one end of the joint, but of course he had not, it was the hole for the wedge to disassemble the joint. Who needs ugly nuts and bolts!


I thought the same thing . Those guys have incredible talent imo


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

RainMan1 said:


> I thought the same thing . Those guys have incredible talent imo


Just think to remodel, just knock out the wedges and reuse the beam and post undamaged.

By jove, I think they have got something there.

Herb


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

Does anyone know of a book that gives instructions on making these joints AND let you apply them to smaller demonstrated projects?


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

TwoSkies57 said:


> Does anyone know of a book that gives instructions on making these joints AND let you apply them to smaller demonstrated projects?


Lowes Stores: Tools & Hardware: The Complete Japanese Joinery


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

Thank ya Stick...

I looked at this as well as "The art of Japanese joinery"

Lowes Stores: Tools & Hardware: The Art Of Japanese Joinery

yesterday. Both books appear to be outstanding references for joint design and contruction, but I'd like to find something that is geared more practice projects...


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

TwoSkies57 said:


> Thank ya Stick...
> 
> I looked at this as well as "The art of Japanese joinery"
> 
> ...


pick what you think will grant you happiness and scale them to fit the project...
redesign/modify if needed..


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## darsev (Feb 3, 2012)

Have a look at this video. Japanese joinery where they do use Power tools.

梁丸太の蟻を手刻み加工 【小林建工_040】: http://youtu.be/SE0pb3iuLTs

Darryl


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## mlrlangley24 (Dec 27, 2013)

I want those chisels!!!


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