# Shop lighting -- electrical question



## Big Steve (Feb 12, 2012)

I want to add lighting in the garage shop. As you can see in the pic, I have two light sockets for incandescent lights.

Can I just remove the light socket, put duplex sockets in the boxes and then plug in two 2-lamp fixtures in each one? Any concerns or better suggestions? Permitting needed?

T5 or T8 or T12? I am thinking T8.

Main need/want is BRIGHT, realistic lighting.


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## Harrison67 (May 30, 2012)

Yes, you need a LOT more light. I think it's best to run a new line or two for fluorescent s. 

Then you'll have plenty of room/outlets for task lighting.


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Steve, your plan will work just fine.


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## Big Steve (Feb 12, 2012)

Thanks, Mike.

Harrison, I should note that most work during daytime with garage door open, which povides a lot of daylight, except in winter.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Steve; on a cost basis go for the T8's; on a high light level basis, the T5's for sure.
Having said that, you're making extra work and expense for yourself going the lamp cord and plug route.
I assume there's a 4" round outlet box where the current incandescent is?
Just remove the lampholder, take out an additional knockout (or 2) and run Loomex to your new fluorescent locations. 
DO NOT try and combine lighting and tool plugs on the same circuit. 
A sample scenario is:
You're running your tablesaw (separate 220V cct?) and you have your dust collector plugged into the lighting~receptacle cct. The DC blows the cct. and you're suddenly left in the dark with your TS whirring away...you can't even see where the OFF switch is! Don't do it.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Like Dan said. You can mount a florescent over each existing octagon box and if you need more light farther back I would just run armored cable (bx cable) from those fixtures to the next lights. (The wires have to be protected from physical damage when run across a wall or the ceiling according to wiring codes in NA.)


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Steve; I was thinking about the electrical connection issue and I remember quite a few years back the y changed the Cdn. Electrical Code for the reason I was illustrating. 
It used to be that you couldconnect the rest of a cct. to the second set of contact screws on a wall plug, then they changed the code so that all the devices had to be 'pigtailed'. The reason being that if you were doing maintenance with the cct. live, as soon as you loosened the connection, the lights went out, and you were left holding a hot wire in the dark (anybody that's done reno work is lying through their teeth if they claim that they always turn the power off!  ).


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## Marco (Feb 21, 2009)

Steve I'm in the minority on lighting, I can't stand flourescent lighting. It plays tricks with my eyes and for me can't see as well..... I use an overhead light and several flood lights positioned around the shop that can be easily positioned and turned on and off when needed.


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## Big Steve (Feb 12, 2012)

Thanks for the input...

1. This is a dedicated lighting circuit.
2. Only a 10% improvement with T5 over T8, but substantial increase in $
3. Dan wrote "I assume there's a 4" round outlet box where the current incandescent is?
Just remove the lampholder, take out an additional knockout (or 2) and run Loomex to your new fluorescent locations. " that will yield cable coming out of an open box, no? Isn't that bad?
4. Marco, isn't that with the older T12?


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Steve; I made a couple of assumptions re #3
-that the jct. box is accessible
-that the wiring is up on, or above the ceiling
_You can't use lamp cord for permanent wiring._
I suggested Loomex, or NMD 10, for your wiring but you could also use PVC conduit or aluminum flex if you're surface mounting it. The reality is that a lot of exposed surface ceiling wiring is done with Loomex. As long as it's *not exposed to physical damage* there's nothing wrong with it. Look at any unfinished basement ceiling...the stuff is everywhere.
It must enter both the box and the fixture through a knockout and it must pass through an approved connector when it enters. The cabling also needs to be supported with staples or straps.
Is your ceiling already finished ie drywall?


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Steve; me again. ( It's past midnight and even the dog gave up on me and went to bed).
I meant to address the open box part of your question earlier.
If the box is located above the ceiling, this item will give you code approved access for the Loomex... https://ontario.nedco.ca/sd54c6-4-r...143%2529/SWDSD54C6/ProductInformation.raction
run the cable to the first fixture, use the fixture as a 'wireway' and carry on to he next fixture from the first one, and so on.


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## Router Roman (Jun 7, 2012)

Do T5 and T8 Bulbs Cost The Same?

A standard 4 foot T8 lamp costs between $3.00 and $5.00, and a standard T5 lamp costs between $5.50 and $12.00. That is why you must carefully consider what is the best application so that you aren't spending 2x more than you have to.

The T5 does cost nearly 2x more, but that same margin cannot be applied to performance. The T5 does not outperform the T8 by the same margin. In fact, in many low level interior applications, the performance differences are negligible.

Both the T5 and T8 lamps have a general life expectancy of around 36,000 hrs. at 12 hrs. per day burn time.
Roman
As found on a google search


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## Oakwerks (May 9, 2013)

You have the same lighting that was in our garage.... I removed the fixtures and ran conduit between t8 fixtures lined up in rows .... Be sure to use T8, as they give more light, are cheaper to run, and because there's no hot ballast, they can be attached against the ceiling.... The tubes are more expensive than T12, though.....


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## mgmine (Jan 16, 2012)

Florescent lights don't work very well in the cold so in the winter you could have a problem.


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## richjh (Jan 14, 2013)

I ran two 2-bulb T12 HO fixtures from a single ceiling box. Each bulb is 110W for a total of 440W. Each bulb is 96 inches and they last a long time. I mean years and we cycle these lights a lot. I have had these fixtures for 20 years will no issues except occasional bulb replacement.


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## rwl7532 (Sep 8, 2011)

I would drop the fixtures down to be just above the level of the garage door opener. Light diminishes the square of the distance.

Also, I would use full color or daylight tubes as regular tubes are not.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Ralph brings up an important safety issue. In a shop environment the tbes are supposed to have a protective sleeve over them , or a protective cage over the fixture.
If you accidentally hit them...say with a long piece of stock ...they will shatter, sending extremely sharp shards over a very wide area. I have the scar on my scalp as evidence...
Fluorescent Lamp Safety Sleeves - Grainger Industrial Supply


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## senebraskaee (Apr 29, 2012)

I have stated before that the T-5's are really intended for high-bay applications and most folks find they produce objectionable glare when mounted below about 12'. Each to his own, but T-8's have proven to be great general shop lights and are the future of fluorescent lighting, with the government trying to obsolete all lengths of T-12 (both 4' and 8').


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Mike; and the beauty of the T8 is the simplicity of just upgrading your existing T12's to T8...just install the appropriate T8 electronic ballast, and replace the lamps. Everything else is the same.
Should be about $14/ea pretty much everywhere...
Amazon.com: Sylvania 49853 - QHE2X32T8UNVISNSC T8 Fluorescent Ballast: Home Improvement


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## Willway (Aug 16, 2012)

I have to agree with Mike's comment "Steve, your plan will work just fine". The average load of a 4', 2tube fixture is approx. 1.5amp. There is no code here in the states prohibiting use of fixtures purchased with rubber cords already attached. They are already covered under the NFPA (National Fire Protection Assoc.) and UL listings for cords up to 8'. I would think it would be the same in Canada. Most of the newer electronic ballasts work OK in the cold, and have a 0 degree Fahrenheit start rating, but check to be sure. Be sure to hang them or space them down from the ceiling to protect from fire danger.


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## waynecochran (Aug 2, 2011)

Steve, I buy inexpensive 4 ft. light fixtures and use t8 daylight bulbs. Walmart has the cheapest but, sometimes you get a dud. They always exchange them, no problem.


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## Big Steve (Feb 12, 2012)

Dick, Wayne -- thanks for the info.


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## GulfcoastGuy (Feb 27, 2012)

If the bulbs don't have "Daylight" on the packaging look for the "temperature" rating (2700K, 6500K, etc.). Look for anything between 5000K and 6500K and preferably near the top of that range. That'll get you a color that most closely matches sunlight. Stay away from the higher end (10,000K, 12,000K, actinic). They throw off too much blue. "Grow" lights tend to be a little pink.


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## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

Steve, just a thought. I pulled all the regular fluorescent fixtures out of my shop a year ago. I put in 3 rows of 5 daylight CFL's. Got better light than I had before at 20% of the operating cost! Considering there was over 2200 watts of light before, that is a considerable savings. Total cost for the project? A little over $100, including the conduit!


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

If I was going to start from scratch on lighting a workshop I think I would go with LED strip lighting. The higher initial cost would be recovered in very short order because of the reduction in electricity. I am sure an entire 24 x 24' shop could be lit very well for 100 watts.


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## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

Mike said:


> If I was going to start from scratch on lighting a workshop I think I would go with LED strip lighting. The higher initial cost would be recovered in very short order because of the reduction in electricity. I am sure an entire 24 x 24' shop could be lit very well for 100 watts.


I am not quite sold on the strip lighting yet, but I do have a couple of LED spot lights in the house. 4 watt replacements for GU10 fixtures(50 watts). Added advantage is they run cool. I have 6 can fixtures ready to install in my living room ceiling when I get the ambition to go up in the attic to do the wiring! The LED bulbs are about $5 each, which I think is actually very reasonable. 

It would probably take at least 24 of those fixtures to light my shop. Payback would be about a year or so with the existing CFL lights. Being recessed there would also be very little chance of hitting one with a board! Another advantage is it would not be too unreasonable to run those much of the time with a solar panel or 2!

Here is a link for anyone interested in the LED GU10's

http://www.amazon.com/TORCHSTAR-320...&qid=1369230113&sr=8-6&keywords=led+gu10+bulb


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Dmeadows said:


> Steve, just a thought. I pulled all the regular fluorescent fixtures out of my shop a year ago. I put in 3 rows of 5 daylight CFL's. Got better light than I had before at 20% of the operating cost! Considering there was over 2200 watts of light before, that is a considerable savings. Total cost for the project? A little over $100, including the conduit!


What wattage are the CFLs Duane? I've seen 40 or 45 watt CFLs in Princess Auto's catalog up here. I would guess that they must be equivalent to about 200 watts incandescent. I have about a dozen old 4' T12 fixtures in my shop that I have some new T8 ballasts for but I'm not averse to saving them for use in my basement and doing a refit in my shop.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Mike said:


> If I was going to start from scratch on lighting a workshop I think I would go with LED strip lighting. The higher initial cost would be recovered in very short order because of the reduction in electricity. I am sure an entire 24 x 24' shop could be lit very well for 100 watts.


Do you have any links Mike and do you know anyone who has tried it? I just did a little searching but it's hard to compare the different systems. The only way I know of to compare one to the other is lumens output and the sites I looked at didn't give those figures.


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## Harrison67 (May 30, 2012)

I just bought 2-100 watt LEDs. Don't have them hooked up in the shop yet.....but these babies will blind you if you look at them. They should really light up the place because I have 10 foot ceilings.


here are examples:


https://www.google.com/search?q=100...hMMqzygGw6IDgAw&ved=0CHEQsAQ&biw=1429&bih=940

I found these on Fleabay for $15.00 each. You still have to heatsink them and get the proper Current set up. LEDs are Current based, more than Voltage.


Also got several 50, 20, and 10 watters.


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## Harrison67 (May 30, 2012)

This place sells them, but I think they are too high priced:


items in Factory Direct Warehouse Store store on eBay!


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## BOjr (Dec 1, 2012)

Steve, there's no reason you can't replace the single outlet with a duplex or even a four plex. If the circuit is a dedicated lighting circuit and you have a 15 or better yet a 20 amp breaker you'll be fine. It is true that code will require a separate pig tail for each light but if they are exposed they diffiniy should be protected. Just because you see unprotected wire in unfinished basements doesn't make it correct. The first time you are carrying something long and you hit the protected wire you'll be glad you did protect it. Make sure your wiring is at least 14/3.

Buck


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## Harrison67 (May 30, 2012)

OK, here's an example of the new LED, T-8 replacement bulbs....not cheap at all:


EverLED TR - LED Supply.com


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## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> What wattage are the CFLs Duane? I've seen 40 or 45 watt CFLs in Princess Auto's catalog up here. I would guess that they must be equivalent to about 200 watts incandescent. I have about a dozen old 4' T12 fixtures in my shop that I have some new T8 ballasts for but I'm not averse to saving them for use in my basement and doing a refit in my shop.


I am using daylight 23W(100W eq) bulbs in the shop. I do have a couple of 45 around the house though


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## GulfcoastGuy (Feb 27, 2012)

Here's a source for a DIMMABLE 23W (eq. 100W) CFL 6500K for $12. Yeah, you read right - dimmable.

23 Watt Compact Fluorescent CFL 6500K Full Spectrum


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## GulfcoastGuy (Feb 27, 2012)

And non-dimming cousins.

http://www.1000bulbs.com/search/?filter%5Bcategory%5D=1833&filter%5Bcolor+temperature%28int%29%5D=6500..7000&filter%5Bdimmable%28text%29%5D=No&filter%5Bbase+type%28text%29%5D=Medium+%28E26%29&filter%5Bincandescent+equal%28int%29%5D=100..101


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## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

GulfcoastGuy said:


> Here's a source for a DIMMABLE 23W (eq. 100W) CFL 6500K for $12. Yeah, you read right - dimmable.
> 
> 23 Watt Compact Fluorescent CFL 6500K Full Spectrum


Never had the urge to make one less bright!:sarcastic:


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

LED's are great 
==


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## GulfcoastGuy (Feb 27, 2012)

Dmeadows said:


> Never had the urge to make one less bright!:sarcastic:


Yeah, I know but I was thinking maybe along the lines of higher intensity for prep and inspection and then the capacity to set the level to match the final use location for finishing and such. Anyway, one of historical drawbacks of florescents has been their incompatibility with conventional dimmers.


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

I spent some time on the phone today with a LED strip lighting specialist at Antenna Hub. I was told it would require three 5 meter sets to light a 24' x 20' shop. Power consumption is higher than I thought, 216 watts. This may or may not be good information. Right now I have 8 4' twin bulb fixtures and 2 single bulb fixtures consuming 512 watts. This could be a big electricity savings if the 3 strips will do the job. I figure this is a good starting point for research, not a final solution. You can view the LED strip lights in question here:
5050 LED RGB Super Bright Remote Controlled Flexible Light Strip IP67 16 Feet Reel 150 LEDs


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## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

Mike said:


> I spent some time on the phone today with a LED strip lighting specialist at Antenna Hub. I was told it would require three 5 meter sets to light a 24' x 20' shop. Power consumption is higher than I thought, 216 watts. This may or may not be good information. Right now I have 8 4' twin bulb fixtures and 2 single bulb fixtures consuming 512 watts. This could be a big electricity savings if the 3 strips will do the job. I figure this is a good starting point for research, not a final solution. You can view the LED strip lights in question here:
> 5050 LED RGB Super Bright Remote Controlled Flexible Light Strip IP67 16 Feet Reel 150 LEDs


Looks like good info to me, Mike. 3 5m strips would require a 20A 12V power supply plus the $360 for the strips... so into about $500 give or take. 9 23W CFLs use 207W, 12 would be 276 Watts, so it cost more to operate compared to 9 CFLs or slightly less than 12 CFLs. Too early to think clearly, but I calculate the payback at over 14 years assuming $0.11/KWhr, and 200 and 16 hours per day!

Think I will stick with the CFLs even though may have to change a bulb once in a while!


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## Harrison67 (May 30, 2012)

Mike said:


> I spent some time on the phone today with a LED strip lighting specialist at Antenna Hub. I was told it would require three 5 meter sets to light a 24' x 20' shop. Power consumption is higher than I thought, 216 watts. This may or may not be good information. Right now I have 8 4' twin bulb fixtures and 2 single bulb fixtures consuming 512 watts. This could be a big electricity savings if the 3 strips will do the job. I figure this is a good starting point for research, not a final solution. You can view the LED strip lights in question here:
> 5050 LED RGB Super Bright Remote Controlled Flexible Light Strip IP67 16 Feet Reel 150 LEDs





That guy said that three, five meter strips; will light a shop?

No way.

I bought several strips of the 5050s, and they are for decorative purposes. They put out a lot of light.....if you want to mount them 2-3 feet away from a work surface. Not on your ceilings.

You should buy a strip on Ebay and try them out first. Most American companies are selling the same Chinese strips for 100.00-200.00.....that can be bought on the Bay for 15.00-45.00.


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Duane, each of those strips are complete and ready to plug the transformer in so the cost is just the price of the three sets. They are backed with 3M mounting tape so installation should be easy enough.

Harrison, each of those strips puts out 5250 lumens which is more than a single 4' dual bulb fluorescent fixture. Based on that figure it seems to me 6 reels would be required for my shop. That is still a savings of 100 watts over what I am using now. (I missed one 40 watt fixture when I was counting) Like I said this source is not the solution, just a starting point to learn more about the strip lights. I know you are right about Ebay.

A very nice 60 watt power supply designed for these strips can be quite expensive. I have several old PC 300 watt power supplies that will work just fine in the shop. Each can power 10 reels.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Good info Harrison. I spent several hours on the net yesterday trying to find out if LED lighting would replace my florescents and at a cost I could afford. I looked at the strips but couldn't conclude if they would work. Glad that someone had personal experience with them and I can rule them out. I found a site where I could purchase LED T8 tube replacements for a mere $1900/24 tubes. These would appear to get the job done and have many advantages such as less wattage, less heat output, no ballast needed as they connect directly to 120 line voltage, and all of the light is directed down unlike regular tubes. It's the $2Gs to re-lamp my shop that is the very large pill to swallow.

I also found some interesting comparisons between LED, florescents, and incandescent. One was this one LED light bulbs: Comparison charts - Eartheasy.com Solutions for Sustainable Living and in the chart showing estimated cost over 50,000 hours of operating time, there was very little difference between LED and CFLs. 

I also found a report from the US DOE comparing LEDs against other lighting. I didn't read the entire report but in the section on trouffers (e.g. tube type fixtures) it stated that there is no significant advantage to using LEDs over florescent. http://apps1.eere.energy.gov/buildings/publications/pdfs/ssl/led-adoption-report_2013.pdf 

It appears that the florescent choices are still cost effective and don't have the high start up cost. At least for now.


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## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

Duplicate post!


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## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

Mike said:


> Duane, each of those strips are complete and ready to plug the transformer in so the cost is just the price of the three sets. They are backed with 3M mounting tape so installation should be easy enough.
> 
> Harrison, each of those strips puts out 5250 lumens which is more than a single 4' dual bulb fluorescent fixture. Based on that figure it seems to me 6 reels would be required for my shop. That is still a savings of 100 watts over what I am using now. (I missed one 40 watt fixture when I was counting) Like I said this source is not the solution, just a starting point to learn more about the strip lights. I know you are right about Ebay.
> 
> A very nice 60 watt power supply designed for these strips can be quite expensive. I have several old PC 300 watt power supplies that will work just fine in the shop. Each can power 10 reels.


I missed that, Mike! Needing 6 strips though, still an awful long break even time! When those strips get down to $15 - $20, I may consider that!

Oh, and by the way those 300W supplies won't run 300 W on the 12V rail!

PS... Well here you go!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/5M-5050-SMD...677231?pt=US_Car_Lighting&hash=item35c34a0eaf


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## rwl7532 (Sep 8, 2011)

Dmeadows said:


> Looks like good info to me, Mike. 3 5m strips would require a 20A 12V power supply plus the $360 for the strips... so into about $500 give or take. 9 23W CFLs use 207W, 12 would be 276 Watts, so it cost more to operate compared to 9 CFLs or slightly less than 12 CFLs. Too early to think clearly, but I calculate the payback at over 14 years assuming $0.11/KWhr, and 200 and 16 hours per day!
> 
> Think I will stick with the CFLs even though may have to change a bulb once in a while!


But it's for the shop!!
Which negates any payback calculations.

:big_boss:


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## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

rwl7532 said:


> But it's for the shop!!
> Which negates any payback calculations.
> 
> :big_boss:


Well, there is that!:dance3: Rather spend it on tools than utilities, though!


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## Harrison67 (May 30, 2012)

This site claims that their strips are the brightest in the World.:


Brightest LED strip Light - Industrial Ultra Bright series

Have not tried theirs. Very expensive.




I also bought strips with 600 LEDs, for under cabinet lighting and they are very bright, using a dimmer of course.


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