# What do you think about....



## nikki1492 (May 31, 2009)

a solar kiln? 

Solar Kilns

Ya know I've got nearly 200 bf of red oak most of which is green. It's now on stickers in the place where I will soon need to winter my lawn tractor.

It's really useless to put it elsewhere in the basement because it's a damp place... and don't think my electric bill can take the hit from a dehumidifier.

I came upon this link and thought hummmmmm???? 

So I'm bouncing it off you all and need your opinions.

Thanks much in advance.


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

Barb,,,

funny you bring this up, I was looking at this link last night, wondering if it would really work:

Solar Wood Drying

I know of a few guys down here (located in SWPa myself) who have built their own standard kilns and have had great success with them. However the cost for me to do such a project would be prohibitive. 
I'd be real interested in some of the feedback you get on this...

b


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## vikingcraftsman (Mar 31, 2006)

You guys will have to make this a garden shed for the wife and a kilm for you. I original came from Warren , Pa. Boy all the free wood I could get if I had a kilm back in the day. Or a shed to store your tracter with a side room for the kilm.


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## Rutabagared (Jun 18, 2009)

*Solar Kiln*

I completed a solar kiln based on that in use at Virginia Tech. It's a scaled down version (about 150 bdft capacity). I dried three charges so far and it has worked very well. Two charges were 4/4 cherry. Each charge took about three weeks to dry from 50% moisture content (m.c.) (as delivered from the sawmill) to 6% m.c. These two charges were dried during July and August (2008). The last charge was 8/4 cherry and took an estimated 8 weeks to dry. I say "estimated" because I loaded the kiln in early September (2008) and unloaded it in May (2009). No measurable drying occurred during the winter months.

Controlling the drying rate is nearly automatic. I usually operate it with the vents closed completely all of the time and have had success. I operate two cheap box fans connected to a $15.00 outdoor timer. I set the timer to operate the fans starting about two hours after sunrise until about an hour after sunset.

There's plenty of info. available online. Also, American Woodworker ran an article about two years ago as well. Wood Workers Guild of America (WWGOA) has a video on their website reviewing this kiln ("Solar Kiln Basics" in the upper left).

Buying green lumber is less than 1/3 the cost of kiln dried, and best of all the lumber shows almost no indication of stress and machines very well.

Attached below are two different deliveries from the sawmill.
The first is of 150+ board feet of cherry (select and better), all 4/4. Total cost - $100.
The second is of 250+ board feet of cherry (FAS) (100 bd.ft. of 8/4 and 150 bd.ft. of 4/4). Total cost - $250.

Granted my supplier is overly generous. But the typical rate for cherry in southwestern Pennsylvania is only about 1/3 more in cost. Still far less than 1/2 the cost of kiln dried.

There was an initial material investment in the kiln of several hundred dollars coupled with sweat equity. And the moisture meter cost $125+, but I've already recovered this. I highly recommend a moisture meter with external probes like this one. Probes enable you to monitor the center of the board as well as inaccessible areas of the lumber stack. The probes are essential for thick lumber. Case in point: the 8/4 lumber charge described above had a measured mc of 6% on the surface and 14% in the center at one stage of the drying process.

I have pictures of the kiln somewhere. I'll post when I find them.


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## nikki1492 (May 31, 2009)

Hi Bill....aha! a fellow Pennsylvanian . Like you, a standard kiln is out of my financial league. Nor do I want to become involved in buying/building solar panels with the batteries, wires, etc. I try to keep the KISS principle alive in my world. 

I'm very new into woodworking and have been practicing on left over wood from an addition to my house. When I paid $25 for a 1X8X10 of clear pine at the local building center I almost lost it. Where I live there are many more trees than people... <grin> 

Then I started watching the local equavilent of Craig's list and found this red oak.... 200 bf for $100 plus $25 for delivery... which they also unloaded and stacked the wood for me, I said why not?

Again I'm saying "why not" but want/need input from a great bunch of people here. I totally trust they will give me their honest opinion and great information.

That's a great link you tossed in. Thank you. 

We have lots of sawmills around here and I like using woods which are harvested locally. BUT..... that usually means green lumber which is rough cut. The humidity in this area generally exceeds the temperature and I don't have 10 years to wait for a drying process. <very big grin>

I believe the comments/information will be great. The more input the better chance I have a making a good decision about this.





TwoSkies57 said:


> Barb,,,
> 
> funny you bring this up, I was looking at this link last night, wondering if it would really work:
> 
> ...


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## Rutabagared (Jun 18, 2009)

nikki1492 said:


> Hi Bill....aha! a fellow Pennsylvanian . Like you, a standard kiln is out of my financial league. Nor do I want to become involved in buying/building solar panels with the batteries, wires, etc. I try to keep the KISS principle alive in my world.


Hi Barb,
The solar kiln is not based on solar panels such as those used to generate electricity, but rather solar energy. Except for the fans, they are completely passive devices. The basic principle is solar energy heating a solar collector in the kiln. The heat generated in the kiln is then circulated through the lumber stack with fans.

Joe


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## nikki1492 (May 31, 2009)

Hi Joe, It's great to "talk" with someone who has been there and done that successfully.

When I first saw the topic last evening I expected to read about solar collectors with wires going to storage batteries, etc. I was very pleasantly surprised when I read about the passive approach. (I like passive.)

And this is where I bombard you with questions! <grin>

How big is your solar kiln? What is the capacity? What did you use for collection? Did you double layer that? At what angle did you use for the collection? (Tee Hee Hee.... I've been reading and I know just enough to be dangerous.) 

I really hope you can find the pictures of the kiln..... I'd be delighted to see them.

There is a lumber yard very near which ships internationally as well as domestically and is quite modern. They've got a great setup. I'm going to call tomorrow to see if they would kiln dry my red oak and what the cost would be per bf. My SUV can not haul the 10 ft lengths so I would have to pay someone to get the wood there and back. With the expenses I would incur I wonder how close I'd come to paying for the kiln?

So now if you will excuse me... I'm going back to reading about the kilns. Oh, and Joe.... I'll make a list of questions for you so Bill and I and anyone else can learn.... today is not a wasted day.... I've learned so much already. :dance3:

Thanks



Rutabagared said:


> Hi Barb,
> The solar kiln is not based on solar panels such as those used to generate electricity, but rather solar energy. Except for the fans, they are completely passive devices. The basic principle is solar energy heating a solar collector in the kiln. The heat generated in the kiln is then circulated through the lumber stack with fans.
> 
> Joe


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## nikki1492 (May 31, 2009)

And hey there, Joe..... from south western PA huh? That is so kewl!

By the way, how did you come by your register name? That's an interesting name to me.

Barb


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## nikki1492 (May 31, 2009)

Hey there, John.... what's a ridge runner like you doing on Long Island, NY? :laugh:

Barb


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## Rutabagared (Jun 18, 2009)

nikki1492 said:


> And this is where I bombard you with questions! <grin>
> 
> How big is your solar kiln? What is the capacity? What did you use for collection? Did you double layer that? At what angle did you use for the collection? (Tee Hee Hee.... I've been reading and I know just enough to be dangerous.)
> 
> ...


Hi Barb,
My kiln's overall dimensions are 10' long x 6' high x 3 ½’ wide. The capacity is about 150 bdft. The floor is 2x6 pt lumber. The walls are 2x4 construction. It is fully insulated with fiberglass batting. I went cheap with the sheathing and used particle board. I finished the inside and outside with 1 coat of primer and 2 coats of outdoor paint. So far the paint is sealing well and the particle board is showing no signs of deteriorating. I made the entire unit so that it could be broken down and stored. Albeit in large pieces that take two people to move. I’ve had it up for about 1 ½ years and haven’t disassembled it yet.

For the collector I used a corrugated, clear, plastic material from a big box store. I believe the trade name is Palruf. I fastened it two 2x4 frames with proprietary galvanized screws that have a rubber washer for sealing - sold in the same section as the corrugated material. The 2x4 frames are constructed "flat" - the faces of the stock down. I didn’t add a second layer of Palruf. Instead, I added clear plastic to the back to form an air pocket. I read that this makes a BIG difference in retaining heat. The plastic was actually part of a window kit for sealing drafty windows. The card stock included in the kit made stapling the plastic to the frames easy.

The main heat collector is the "plenum" - the vertical panel containing the fans that spans the length of the kiln. But actually all interior surfaces serve as one collector. Paint all interior surfaces black to absorb as much heat as possible - I went to a paint store and bought the darkest black available. I even enlisted my daughter (10 at the time) and one of her friends to help me paint the bricks that are used to add weight to the top of the stack. 

As you may already know from your research, for maximum efficiency the angle of the collector should equal the degrees in latitude of the kiln location. My latitude coordinate is 40 degrees – 45 degrees is close enough and is the angle of my collector. You can get your coordinates here.

I’ll keep searching for the photos. I’m due to get another delivery soon. I’ll photograph the loading process and can provide some internal pics of the kiln as well.

Try searching woodweb for kiln drying services in your area. Add your zip and your set. As you'll see, you'll have to wade through sawyer services as they're typically linked. They typically pick up and drop off for a fee and are likely the most reasonable. Woodweb also contains a lot of information on solar kilns and drying.

Good luck!
Joe


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## Rutabagared (Jun 18, 2009)

nikki1492 said:


> And hey there, Joe..... from south western PA huh? That is so kewl!
> 
> By the way, how did you come by your register name? That's an interesting name to me.
> 
> Barb


Nickname of a red-haired childhood friend who had a bad experience with a certain turnip. It has stuck to this day! I should mention that my dog, Rudy (my avatar photo) shares the same nickname.

Joe


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## nikki1492 (May 31, 2009)

Hey Joe, I didn't mean to be nosey. I've been very involved for the last 9 years doing genealogy. Both my parents ancestry is in Sweden. And thanks to the web I've completed my ancestry back to the mid 1200's. The "agared" in your screen name is a very typical ending for the smaller parishes. And so I wondered...... 

That Woodweb site you and Bill sent me to is quite the place. Using this link go to page 121 and read about heated-room drying. 

http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/fpl_pdfs/fplgtr118.pdf 

What do you make of that? Am I getting the wrong idea about this... that it is more to acclimate the wood after it has been air dried before you work with it?

Of course it would be too good to be a complete drying process. I've got two extra bedrooms upstairs which are 'junk collectors' that could easily be converted to lumber drying. During the winter I keep some heat going to those rooms since I have 3 rescued cats who inhabit the second floor.

I've been partially disabled with problems in my upper and lower back. Last summer my kids added a bedroom, bath and laundry area on the first floor so I don't need to do the steps all the time. And it leaves another bedroom unused.

Ya don't suppose....... 

Barb 



Rutabagared said:


> Nickname of a red-haired childhood friend who had a bad experience with a certain turnip. It has stuck to this day! I should mention that my dog, Rudy (my avatar photo) shares the same nickname.
> 
> Joe


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## Ghidrah (Oct 21, 2008)

Most old time farmers called them cold sheds, (without the fans) I had one for many yrs until the lumber supporting the old slider panels rotted away. We used it for late season radish, lettuce etc, (they like the sun, don't like the heat).

Real simple and cheap is free pallets from the local Lumb yd, electrical conduit, (PVC) and clear poly barrier. We use the PVC and poly barrier for cloches and solarization sheets. As a cloche you can start your potatoes and such weeks or a month earlier than usual if you can get the starters.

As a solarizer you can soak and cover a used bed with the clear barrier for a couple of weeks and start a 2nd crop of taters free of scab and any of the critters associated with an overly used bed.

The temps inside get up well above 130+°. It would work well for drying lumber during the summer if you had the time roll the lumber and space for a cold frame/cloche.


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## vikingcraftsman (Mar 31, 2006)

"Hey there, John.... what's a ridge runner like you doing on Long Island, NY? 

Barb" I went to school in NYC after the Marine Corps. Found my wife on a blind date set up by a class mate. She lived on the island so so do I now. And My spine is still turned from going around the ridge.


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## Rutabagared (Jun 18, 2009)

nikki1492 said:


> Hey Joe, I didn't mean to be nosey. I've been very involved for the last 9 years doing genealogy. Both my parents ancestry is in Sweden. And thanks to the web I've completed my ancestry back to the mid 1200's. The "agared" in your screen name is a very typical ending for the smaller parishes. And so I wondered......
> 
> http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/fpl_pdfs/fplgtr118.pdf
> 
> ...


Barb,
I don't mind at all. That's an interesting coincidence. Congratulations on tracing your ancestry back nearly 800 years! That's quite a feat!

Thanks for the link. I've never known about this method. I think you have the right idea. It seems as though you could start with air-dried lumber (12% m.c.) and dry it to the required 6%-8%.

Joe


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## nikki1492 (May 31, 2009)

Hey y'all,

I'm starting to make preparations for the solar kiln to happen. 

Joe, please don't mind but I'd like to use your dimensions and info and make one like yours. Why try to reinvent the wheel when yours is proven. ['Try' being the operative word here.] 

You said you made yours able to be knocked down. How did you fasten the collector panel to the back wall? I was thinking of the wood cleats?

What did you cover the vent hole with.... regular screening or some sort of metal type? The kiln will be in a fenced-in area which I have for my dogs. Which also means that there will be no little critters nosing around.... just the 50+ pound variety. 

I found the clear convoluted poly-whatever at a big box store near me. Does the size of 22" X 144" seem right? I've seen wind breaks on porches done with this, although usually not clear, and it didn't seem like the panels were that narrow. The brand they have now is Tuftex. Any opinions?

I don't know anything about buying insulation. Do you remember about how many rolls you used? It does come in rolls, right?

I hope you don't live to regret joining this thread.... because I will be asking lots of questions. After all is said and done, I don't want the project to fail because I did something silly only because I thought I knew the answer to my question. It won't get so bad that I ask about where to put a nail, I promise. 

There was way too much month left over at the end of the money this month but September is almost here. :yes4:

Maybe this is a good time to learn Google's SketchUp. I've never done much with any CAD programs. So I'll try to get a handle on it by the time September rolls around. :fie:

I hope you don't mind me asking questions. I will understand if you don't want to continue. You've already given me a great start and I appreciate it all. Thank you.

Barb

P.S. Sorry that I ramble on as badly as I do. I'll try to minimize it but that's what happens since the dogs haven't learned to talk in return. 




Rutabagared said:


> Barb,
> I don't mind at all. That's an interesting coincidence. Congratulations on tracing your ancestry back nearly 800 years! That's quite a feat!
> 
> Thanks for the link. I've never known about this method. I think you have the right idea. It seems as though you could start with air-dried lumber (12% m.c.) and dry it to the required 6%-8%.
> ...


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## CanuckGal (Nov 26, 2008)

Good stuff Barb! I will be watching this thread to see how you make out. The solar kiln sounds like a great idea.


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## nikki1492 (May 31, 2009)

Thanks, Deb. I'm excited about getting at it, getting it done and loaded with the wood.
I'll do a photo shoot of it and keep a log after it's loaded. 
Only 6 days till September and my retirement check. Woooo Hoooo! 




CanuckGal said:


> Good stuff Barb! I will be watching this thread to see how you make out. The solar kiln sounds like a great idea.


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## Rutabagared (Jun 18, 2009)

nikki1492 said:


> Hey y'all,
> 
> I'm starting to make preparations for the solar kiln to happen.
> 
> ...


Barb,

I think that you made a wise choice. I'm always happy to help.

I'll make every effort to take some photos this Saturday. I'd take them sooner but I've been putting in looooong days at my job and the next two days I'll be undergoing an audit so I likely won't get to it until then. The photos will go a long way towards explaining things.

In the meantime, I'll try to explain what I can without photos. I had to squeeze my kiln into the corner of my residential lot. Because of this, I had to make the roof the removable element. I would highly recommend that you make the front and the roof removable like the design in this video (upper left on the page). Your back will thank you. Because my roof is removable, it's constructed in three sections so that I can manage it. The roof sections are built from rectangles of 2x4 stock. Attached to each roof frame section are two pieces of 22" x 72" of corrugated roofing material (your dimensions of 22" X 144" are correct). The corrugated material needs to overlap the previous piece by two valleys and peaks (this will be in the instructions for the material). Because my roof is sectional, two peaks and valleys "hang over" the edge of each roof section frame so that they can overlap the piece on the next section. In order to support the three roof sections, I ran two "stretchers" of 2x4 stock from the top sill of the front wall to the top sill of the back wall, cutting a bird's mouth so they would mate flush with both sills. This divided the collector area into three equal spaces. The 2x4 frames of the removable roof sections fit between these stretchers and the side walls (two outer, removable roof sections) and between the two stretchers (center removable roof section). These frames are almost a friction fit because I added self-adhesive weather stripping to all mating surfaces of the roof. However, I used metal angle brackets to attach the roof sections to the stretchers and side walls.

I just used sheet stock for the vent closures. They ride in rabbets of 1x2 stock framing the openings just like those in the video referenced above.

I believe two rolls of insulation will suffice. Though, I can’t remember the length of the rolls.

This will all be MUCH clearer when I post the photos. Good luck!

Joe


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## nikki1492 (May 31, 2009)

Hey Joe,

Of course work comes first.... how else do you get those cool woods for the kiln and pay to run those fans. <tee hee hee>

I've got a picture in my head of your kiln... especially after watching the video many times. I stop and start so I can study different shots of the "Dave03". But I'm sure it will all come together when you post your pictures.

From your written description I've taken an inventory of leftovers from the addition and started a shopping list. If it isn't on a list I don't remember to get it. Dang gray matter is a bit filled up right now. 

Thanks for the information. I'm looking forward to putting it all together with the photos you post.... and all in due time.

Again, Joe, thanks so much.




Rutabagared said:


> Barb,
> 
> I think that you made a wise choice. I'm always happy to help.
> 
> ...


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

Great thread folks... enjoyin this one!!'

I love the idea of my own kiln, however, I know how I am about things and wouldn't stop at just "enough".. *L* (check out my thread in table top routing).. You'd think being from SW Pa. about hour east of Pitts. finding kiln dried lumber wouldn't be a problem. Yet, it did take some looking and searching. I found a guy up in Jennerstown who has a small business with a kiln. Turned out to be a great guy to do business with. You walk into his "shop" and you see nothing but sawdust, equipment, sawdust and wood. 
The owner is just a good guy. And his pricing is more than fair. It turned out that he built his own kiln. which was basically a converted 1 1/2 car garage. I got the royal tour and he explained how everything worked. I was pleasantly surprised at how simple a functional kiln can be. Being lil more than an over active 'hobbyist', constructing my own kiiln probably wouldn't be practical, but darn, it sure would be fun....


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

We share much in common, Bill!


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## nikki1492 (May 31, 2009)

Hey Bill, I understand about "enough". I was like you once. But life taught me lessons that have made me content/happy and grateful with "enough". 

The kiln will be completely mobile after minor tear-down. I don't know how long I will be living in PA. At least as long as my back/neck hold their current conditions. 

Last year I made a decision to live here until I could no longer get along from my on-the-job injury and now my lower back going to &%^$. The trees we use to play with is keeping me here. My two older kids live in desert climates.... brown hills.... YUK! I've vacationed with them long enough to know I don't like the climates. They aren't thrilled either but it's where the jobs are. My baby girl lives 11 miles from me with her four kids or I wouldn't be here at all.

I'm excited to get started BUT.... I don't do shopping or appointments on Tuesday.... senior citizen day in our area.... talk about the entitlement mentality, again YUK!  No offense to anyone but I seem to find them all. My black and blue heels tell the tale when I shop on Tuesday. And maybe not tomorrow because it's SS check day.... the third.

I also feel an urgency about getting the kiln up. The wood is stacked (with stickers) where I normally park my new deluxe TroyBilt garden tractor. Right now it's covered with a tarp out in the weather. But.... there is no contest as to where the tractor is going for the winter..... so..... urgency and "enough" must rule. 

I was once a perfectionist which only caused frustration. I could not live up to the expectations I placed on myself. It's been extremely difficult to change that habit and it's still a work in progress. But I don't place those same expectations on others.... go figure.

Bill, your router cabinet (not just a table) is a work of art. You do absolutely beautiful work. I'm so happy that you found a source of wood that is reasonable. These days that's not an easy task.

I hope you all stick around and input your thoughts, ideas and comments. Who knows what will be the end result..... but enough is just fine for now.



TwoSkies57 said:


> Great thread folks... enjoyin this one!!'
> 
> I love the idea of my own kiln, however, I know how I am about things and wouldn't stop at just "enough".. *L* (check out my thread in table top routing)......


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