# In Regard To That Trash Can Lid...



## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

This thread is just a heads up to the members that use the trash can and special lid for the separator in their dust collection system.

Lately I noticed that the suction on the system was getting weaker and that chips were accumulating behind the DC so it was time to have a look and see what was going on. What I found was that the chips and dust had begun to build up under the the edge of the lid where it seals to the top of the trash can. After throughly cleaning the channel out that fits around the edge of the lid and fits over the rim the trash can to form a seal, everything seems to have returned to normal. The suction seems to be much stonger but I did the clean up this morning and have not run the DC long enough to be certain that the seal is doing it's job. Before this problem was fixed I notices that the jointer was spitting chips out of the top and when I checked the hose it was not pulling the chips out of the jointer. I'm sure glad that I found the problem. I'm just saying that if you are one of those people that use the trash can with thw special lid, keep an eye on the seal to keep things working for you. Oh, just in case you're wondering, the lid on my system is held down with bungy cords.

Jerry


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

I found my trash can separators leaked and reduced suction from the start and went to ULead and bought a 30 gallon fiber drum with steel top and a clamping rim that seals it tight. No more leaks, lots of suction. Thinking about how to put a plexiglass peep hole in it so I don't have to open it to see how full it is. Maybe a hole in the top with the plexi bolted in place with a gasket and lots of calk to seal it tight.


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

DesertRatTom said:


> Thinking about how to put a plexiglass peep hole in it so I don't have to open it to see how full it is. Maybe a hole in the top with the plexi bolted in place with a gasket and lots of calk to seal it tight.


Holy Cow Batman!!! I've been wondering the how-to of that... and of course over thinking it. That sounds like some real simple solutions that I want to try out for mine! Thanks Tom.

What I have been doing is either check... or when I start seeing shavings in the bag, I know I was too late. LOL.


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## MT Stringer (Aug 15, 2012)

I don't need a stinking peep hole! 
Just kidding.


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## TinyTiger (Mar 9, 2013)

Great tip Jerry. Thanks!


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

*Question, Mike*



MT Stringer said:


> I don't need a stinking peep hole!
> Just kidding.


Is your lower baffle the same diameter as the inside of the drum, or slightly smaller?


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## MT Stringer (Aug 15, 2012)

jw2170 said:


> Is your lower baffle the same diameter as the inside of the drum, or slightly smaller?


James, part of the baffle (120 deg.) is the width of the drum and the rest (240 deg) is a little smaller. For a better description, check out Phil's website.

Phil Thien's Cyclone Separator Lid


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## roofner (Aug 1, 2010)

Desertrat I don't know the what the term Ulead is? I would like a source for a fiber drum.


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## MT Stringer (Aug 15, 2012)

roofner said:


> Desertrat I don't know the what the term Ulead is? I would like a source for a fiber drum.


Here ya go, bud.
ULINE

I think that is what he meant. I have ordered stuff from the, before.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

*Uline, not ulead*



MT Stringer said:


> Here ya go, bud.
> ULINE
> 
> I think that is what he meant. I have ordered stuff from the, before.


Uline is what I meant. 70 year old memory cells. LOL


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## roofner (Aug 1, 2010)

Very expensive barrels. You must buy a minimum 2 at $29 these are the 10 gallon and shipping minimum. Plus taxes, $80 . However went to empty my bucket and plastic lid cracked and broke. Now I'm forced to switch now.


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

After cleaning the area where the lid seats to the top rim of the barrel, all went well for a short time until the build up caused the lid to lift again and leaking started again, so, fo rnow, just to see if it will help. I have placed a ciner block on the back half of the lid to find out if this will prevent the problem. If so, I will try to add some more bungy cords and see if this will work. However, other that the cinder block looking kind of weird, if it work, maybe that is all that I need to do. I'm wondering if other member that use the trash can as their separator have the problem with the lid leaking and if now what was used to keep the lid tight.

Jerry


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Jerry...

Your cyclone s is on the underpressure side of the DC right? Not the pressure side? Cyclones work on both sides, but with a workworking DC System, we usually put it before the blower...

Sure you don have something else going on? Just going off how mine works...

I have weather stripping under my lid. I don't have anything holding my cyclone line down or to latch it closed. When I turn the blower on, the suction holds it closed. If I temp hold me hand over a hose downstream. I can see the weather stripping on the lid compress. 

Seems to me, if there was a leak there, the suction would pull whatever chip away from there towards the blower, and in how cyclones work.... Then the efficiency of the cycone action would be compromised and you'ld end up with chips in your DC bag.

That's just how things (are supposed to) work with a cyclone. So I am a bit confused why yours is building up chips under the lid (between the lid and can) and raising the lid. By physics, if it was on the pressure side, if there was a leak at the lid, I could see that happening... But on the suction side, I am sort of at a lose.


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## jficke13 (Jul 17, 2013)

Uline is right next door to me here in Wisconsin. We looked there, and ended up finding someone who gave us a couple cast off fiber barrels that once were used to hold the syrup marshmallows are made from. They had a really intense marshmallow aroma and were a little sticky, but worked perfectly.

I'd say maybe try digging around and there might be a local business that uses these and might be talked out of a couple for you.


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

MAFoElffen said:


> Jerry...
> 
> Your cyclone s is on the underpressure side of the DC right? Not the pressure side? Cyclones work on both sides, but with a workworking DC System, we usually put it before the blower...
> 
> ...


Well Mike, let's see if I can splain this to you. The four inch hose from the maching being used go direction to the input on the lid of the trash can and yes there is weather stripping on the lid where it fits over the rim of the can. There are no baffles in the trash can. The outlet on the lid has a four hose of course that goes to the blower. Most of the chips and all go into the bag on the blower but the bigger stuff that might plug the intake of the blower does go into the can. All I wanted was for the blower and/or hose to not get plugged up when when I run the DC. I have bungy cords attached to the handle on top of the lid that are stretched down and hooked to the moble frame or cart that both the blower and can ride on. Right now I have had to put a cinder block on the back side of the trash can lid to hold it down so that it won't leak and blow everything out of the back side of the lid, and I do mean everything. The cinder block works fine, just a little less nice to look at. I am using it until I find out what I'm doing wrong, like hearing from somebody like you to tell me.

Jerry

Edit; As long as the chips and dust don't end up on the floor and the blower doesn't plug up, what else can a DC do? I know that the really small stuff isn't always being caught, but what the heck, I'm only in the shop a few hours a day and I'm not going to live another 20 years anyway, so the little bit of dust that I breath in can only kill me and somethings going to get me anyway. I would like to eliminate the cinder block though so that I don't have to explain it to anybody in case just maybe somebody asks me about it, but for now, all is working fine for me in my opinion.

Second Edit: Just dawned on me that the problem with the lid, should say I think that the problem just began with the new planer. I has that high pressure fan that blows the chips from the planer with lots of pressure down the hose and into the trash can. I neee to go check this out to verify this and will get back when I determind if I'm right or not.


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Jerry Bowen said:


> Second Edit: Just dawned on me that the problem with the lid, should say I think that the problem just began with the new planer. I has that high pressure fan that blows the chips from the planer with lots of pressure down the hose and into the trash can. I neee to go check this out to verify this and will get back when I determind if I'm right or not.


So if I'm reading that second edit right, the blwer on the planer is causing and overpressure condition in the intake hose of your cyclone and the DC is causing an underpressure condition in the exhaust of your cyclone... So inside your cyclone is is almost nuetral? (Not an effective condition for a cyclone // almost replicating a leak). It must be somewhat overpresured for it to be able to lift your cyclone lid and have chips sticking between.

If there is a leak in the cyclone lid caused by that lifting, then that cuts down on the cyclone effect also. 

Okay, now I have ideas on what is going on. If the cyclone effect of the cyclone was working correctly, you should be getting no or almost no dust or chips in your bag downstream from your cyclone. I've shown a fellow member who visited here mine... less than a quarter cup of fine dust in my bag, after emptying my cyclone (30 gallons each) 3 times. My cyclone is like yours, no baffles.


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

MAFoElffen said:


> So if I'm reading that second edit right, the blwer on the planer is causing and overpressure condition in the intake hose of your cyclone and the DC is causing an underpressure condition in the exhaust of your cyclone... So inside your cyclone is is almost nuetral? (Not an effective condition for a cyclone // almost replicating a leak). It must be somewhat overpresured for it to be able to lift your cyclone lid and have chips sticking between.
> 
> If there is a leak in the cyclone lid caused by that lifting, then that cuts down on the cyclone effect also.
> 
> Okay, now I have ideas on what is going on. If the cyclone effect of the cyclone was working correctly, you should be getting no or almost no dust or chips in your bag downstream from your cyclone. I've shown a fellow member who visited here mine... less than a quarter cup of fine dust in my bag, after emptying my cyclone (30 gallons each) 3 times. My cyclone is like yours, no baffles.


Mike,.
Now remember, I have not had a chance to confirm this thing with the planer yet, but I am almost positive I'm right. What I plan to do is to hook DC up to the jointer and run some wood across it, but first I am going to be sure that both the bag and can are empty. Once I establish where most of the chips are ending up I'll switch over to the planer. But first I'll empy the bag and the can before I start running the wood through the planer. Also, before doing either one of these test runs I'll remove the cinder block and and in both cases be watching for leaks. I'll let you know what the results are. That 735 really blows hard and I think that the pressure created by that fan is indeed the problem as before I lost the 734 planer I was getting almost all of the chips in the can and very little in the bag. No leaks either, but I need to check as my memory may be playing tricks on me.

Jerry


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

Jerry Bowen said:


> Mike,.
> Now remember, I have not had a chance to confirm this thing with the planer yet, but I am almost positive I'm right. What I plan to do is to hook DC up to the jointer and run some wood across it, but first I am going to be sure that both the bag and can are empty. Once I establish where most of the chips are ending up I'll switch over to the planer. But first I'll empy the bag and the can before I start running the wood through the planer. Also, before doing either one of these test runs I'll remove the cinder block and and in both cases be watching for leaks. I'll let you know what the results are. That 735 really blows hard and I think that the pressure created by that fan is indeed the problem as before I lost the 734 planer I was getting almost all of the chips in the can and very little in the bag. No leaks either, but I need to check as my memory may be playing tricks on me.
> 
> Jerry


O.K. Mike and other members watching this issue of the lid of the trash can leaking. This morning I emptied the can and the bag. put the can back in place with no hold down bungy cords or no cinder block. Next I hooked up the hose to DC to the jointer and made about six passes over the jointer on a four inch wide bpard that was about 20 inches long. But before doing that, when I started the DC the suction was so strong that I could lift the can by it's handle, with the DC turned off the lid lifted off of the can with ease. So after running the board over the the jointer I checked the can and you will see in one of photos all of the chips where they should be and there was almost nothing in the bag. Then I emptied the can and hooked up to the planer. I didn't even have to run anything through the planer, see the other photo where the lifted off of the rim almost two inches, no wonder the can leak so bad. Yesterday, even with the cinder block holding the lid down there were chips all over the floor after running the planer. So, for sure the fan in the new 735 planer is the culprit. Not sure what I'm going to do about it yet. Suggestions will be welcome.

Jerry


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

There is toggle clamps that pull and work like "fishing tackle box latches"... About 3-4 of those might be enough to hold the lid down. Would be stronger, easier and look nicer than bungees or a block. 

As for the overpressure // underpressure thing. Looks like the cyclone is definitely in overpressure by lifting the lid like that. If that is happening with the DC blower on (the underpressure) and the planer blower on... then it seems that the planer blower is stronger than your DC suction there... The cyclone should still work and separate in an overpressure condition as long as there isn't a leak. 

How much shavings gets past your cyclone if you have it all connected, the lid secured and have your DC switched on? The DC is still helping to evacuate the exhaust from the cyclone... A test would be to have it connected, then off and disconnected. I wouldn't leave the DC connected with it switched off as it might collect/backup in the blower housing.


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

Jerry Bowen said:


> O.K. Mike and other members watching this issue of the lid of the trash can leaking. This morning I emptied the can and the bag. put the can back in place with no hold down bungy cords or no cinder block. Next I hooked up the hose to DC to the jointer and made about six passes over the jointer on a four inch wide bpard that was about 20 inches long. But before doing that, when I started the DC the suction was so strong that I could lift the can by it's handle, with the DC turned off the lid lifted off of the can with ease. So after running the board over the the jointer I checked the can and you will see in one of photos all of the chips where they should be and there was almost nothing in the bag. Then I emptied the can and hooked up to the planer. I didn't even have to run anything through the planer, see the other photo where the lifted off of the rim almost two inches, no wonder the can leak so bad. Yesterday, even with the cinder block holding the lid down there were chips all over the floor after running the planer. So, for sure the fan in the new 735 planer is the culprit. Not sure what I'm going to do about it yet. Suggestions will be welcome.
> 
> Jerry


Mike,
Where would I get the clamps you mentioned and how are they attached to the can and the lid?

Jerry


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## tvman44 (Jun 25, 2013)

Can you disable the planer's blower easy enough, that may be the answer.  Surely worth a try.


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

tvman44 said:


> Can you disable the planer's blower easy enough, that may be the answer.  Surely worth a try.


Bob, 
I'd rather try to secure the lid first, I like the way the blower works with the DC. I have secured the lid so far with bungy cords, two of them, on the rear of the lid and the cinder block on the front, not real pretty, but no leaks. I did make a one mistake by not turning the DC on and running a board through the planer, the blower is so strong that it still blew chips out with bungy cords and the cinder block in place. Boy is that blower powerful. 

But thanks for the suggestion, it may come to disabling the blower.

Jerry


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## Willway (Aug 16, 2012)

If anyone wants a foolproof catch-can/drum check out Amazon for 'Lab Pack Drum'. These are made for hazardous material and you don't have to worry about leaks, ever. This is the one I currently have in my 'wish list'. These are polyethylene drums and probably translucent. Much cheaper than the fiber drums and a much better design for a baffle. These have a metal lever-locking metal lid and rubber seal. You cannot beat the price $55 and no shipping for 'Prime Members'. A lot of people don't know what the 'Prime' means on Amazon. It means you pay a fee for the year that entitles you to free shipping on anything marked 'Prime', and has a few other benefits. I think my Prime membership fee will be $78 this year (was $71 last year) but for me it more than pays for itself. I currently have a 55 gallon blue metal drum, with metal lid and rubber seal with metal band, from a bakery. I thought is was plastic but sadly not. We plan on using that, but I may still spring for one of these for the advantages (space and weight).

Eagle 1601MB Blue High Density Polyethylene Lab Pack Drum with Metal Lever-lock Lid, 30 gallon Capacity, 28.5" Height, 21.25" Diameter: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific


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## Lynden (May 19, 2011)

First post here. Hello everyone. Regarding the Lab Pack Drum, I think Phil Thein recommends that a drum used for a pre-separator have a flat side in the area of the baffle. If this is correct, a Dixie Poly drum would be a better choice. The white translucent drums are nice because you can see the level of the chips inside. I'm not allowed to include a url on my first post, so you'll have to Goggle Dixie Poly. Click on "Products" and then "Drums" (Super Shipper Open Head).


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

Welcome, Robert.


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## Lynden (May 19, 2011)

roofner said:


> Very expensive barrels. You must buy a minimum 2 at $29 these are the 10 gallon and shipping minimum. Plus taxes, $80 . However went to empty my bucket and plastic lid cracked and broke. Now I'm forced to switch now.


Check Industrial Supplies Company. Free shipping, no tax.

12 gal. fiber drum --- $25

30 gal. fiber drum --- $43


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