# Router wobble or bit problem?



## kansaibear (Apr 2, 2018)

I have a question regarding something that happened today. I'm new to woodworking and trying to figure things out as I go. Currently I've used the "mega dado bit" from Infinity Tools to flatten two end grain butcher blocks and one cutting board with no troubles in the router planing sled/jig I made. My router is a brand new Bosch MRC23EVS.

I was using the {mega dado and planer router bit (#52-506)} to flatten an end grain butcher block made from walnut and hard maple today when the bit suddenly grabbed the wood and shuddered violently then causing the router to vibrate and make a terrible noise. Naturally I immediately shut it off. The bit had dug into the wood by about a millimeter. At the time I was only set to a cut depth of .6mm.

Now the router can't spin the mega dado bit straight yet other normal bits work fine.

Am I looking at a router problem or a bit/collet extension problem?


Sorry for the newbie question...
Any help is much appreciated.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Welcome N/A to Router forums...

the bit digging in suddenly could be a result of the bit moving in the collet or the sled flexing/rocking/tilting from down pressures from you causing the bit to ''dig'' in...
since, as you say, the bit now causes the router to shake (vibrate) but not not normal bits I'd say the mega bit is now bent...
when you run a normal bit as a test are you just running it or cutting w/ it???
did you have at least 1'' of the mega bit's shank seated in the collet???
how does the router behave w/ another large dia heavy massed bit in it???

w/ you being new to routering and all, the next few post will have some PDF's that you need to read...


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

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## kansaibear (Apr 2, 2018)

Thanks for the quick post reply Stick486.

Wow, didn't even consider it could be bent. I guess the collet extension could also be suspect.

I tested the router with a 1-5/8" 45 degree chamfer bit and a 1-1/2" cove bit; both spun perfectly fine and also cut with no trouble.
I did have at least 1" of the shank seated in the collet; it was in a collet extension that was fully seated.

Many thanks for the PDFs, I've got some reading to do...


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## Multiwood (Feb 24, 2013)

Welcome to the forum N/a


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

kansaibear said:


> Thanks for the quick post reply Stick486.
> 
> Wow, didn't even consider it could be bent. I guess the collet extension could also be suspect.
> 
> ...


ummmmm. *YIKES!!!!* you didn't say anything about the bit extension.. 
oh sure.. save all of the surprises for later... who made it BTW...
that's an awful lot of bit to be slinging on the end of an extension... 
physics is not your friend here and I believe you have crossed into the danger zones..
you need to take the extension out of the equation and either lower the plane of the ski or raise the material up to the cutter.....
I trust you are turning the bit as slow as the router allows...
never set a bit as deep as it will go...
and the ''O'' ring thing you see so often mentioned.. skip that plan...
the better router bits say in the paperwork how deep to set them and many have a depth set mark on the shank..

snag those PDF's and make yourself up a library..


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## kansaibear (Apr 2, 2018)

Is it actually possible for such a large bit to get bent?

I guess I'm thinking it may more likely be the collet extension. Both are from Infinity Tools, I purchased the set. The router speed was set on #2 of 1~6; nearly lowest.
As far as the bit depth is concerned, I was only cutting in .6mm and the bit is certainly capable of more than that.


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## difalkner (Jan 3, 2012)

Welcome to the forum, David! Stick's info is a boatload to read but all good stuff where you'll probably find what you need. You can post photos of what you're doing and the bit and router in question. The photos need to be on your computer and not 3rd party hosting, though, until you have more than 10 posts.

David


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## kansaibear (Apr 2, 2018)

Sounds good, thanks David.
I'll try to get some photos posted up soon.
The jig worked fine for the first three cutting boards I did.

I need to give the bit a try without the collet extension and see how it spins.
I'd prefer it were the collet extension being bent rather than the bit. Plus I'll look to raise the material so I don't need the extension.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

kansaibear said:


> 1... Is it actually possible for such a large bit to get bent?
> 2... I guess I'm thinking it may more likely be the collet extension. Both are from Infinity Tools, I purchased the set.
> 3... The router speed was set on #2 of 1~6; nearly lowest.
> 4... As far as the bit depth is concerned, I was only cutting in .6mm and the bit is certainly capable of more than that.


1... yes, at the shank/bit body intersection especially if it is a two piece bit...
2... agreed... I said bent bit before I knew there was an extension involved..
3... good... but I'd slowed down to the #1 setting..
4... where the bit dug in.. did you hit wild grain or a knot... is there any flex to your ski at all???

the chart says 1617 but the 23's speed settings are the same...

...


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## kansaibear (Apr 2, 2018)

Good to hear answers, much appreciated.
I'll slow it down to the lowest speed when I give the bit a go tomorrow.

It doesn't seem to be hitting a knot in the wood from what I can tell. It is end grain if that makes any difference in the cutting ability/capacity of the bit.

I've attached a few quick photos I took; granted I'm no expert and I'm sure the jig can be improved, but I have flattened three boards previously with no trouble. The ski as you can see has metal rails which I figured would be adequately stiff as to not flex. However, I suppose the MDF side walls may flex. The span is 55cm if I remember correctly.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

David, looks to be a more than adequate and well done ski...
believe now that the bit and now to figure out as to why....


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## kansaibear (Apr 2, 2018)

If the bit is okay and still serviceable, I'll run it at the lowest speed and raise my work piece to eliminate the collet extension which is likely the bent culprit (I'm hoping).

That being said, what kind of feed speed should I be doing with that low a router speed?


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

kansaibear said:


> Good to hear answers, much appreciated.
> I'll slow it down to the lowest speed when I give the bit a go tomorrow.
> 
> It doesn't seem to be hitting a knot in the wood from what I can tell. It is end grain if that makes any difference in the cutting ability/capacity of the bit.
> ...


The only problem that I can see with you jig is that it isn't adjustable for height which is probably the reason you used the extension. I only use my extension on very rare occasions when there is no alternative. This is how I plane wood. The pdf shows how I make router skis.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

You can check the cutter for straightness by lowering it onto a flat surface just enough for the cutters to start scratching it (turning by hand). If it's bent parallel one cutter will make contact first and if it's bent enough to make a difference then you should be able to see the difference in height. If it's bent perpendicular to the cutters then only the tips will make contact first. I You can also do a side to side test the same way. One cutter will make contact with something set up to the side of the bit and the other one won't or only the tips will make contact (provided they are vertical to start with). You can check both the cutter and the extension that way.

I call what you are using a sled rather than skis. Harry's setup is skis. When using it to plane like that you should only need light pressure downward. Let the router do the work. You can still flex those angle irons. I usually make the sides taller to stiffen the bottom plate more. I also agree with Harry about using the extension. Don't unless you have to. The longer the distance from the cutter to the bottom bearing the more pressure you put on it it. It's like using a longer pry bar on something, i.e. more leverage.


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## kansaibear (Apr 2, 2018)

Thanks Harry for the planing ski plans, I'll have to give those a shot.

Quick update...
It seems both the bit and the collet extension are bent. I tested the bit only in the router and it still vibrates and causes the bearings to make some noise; as well the extension when used with another smaller cove or chamfer bit still vibrates and the bearings are noisy. However, when running a normal bit in the router there is no vibration or bearing noise when spinning freely or cutting into wood.

Lesson learned, I need a better jig setup or to just get a planer.
Thanks for all the input guys!


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Hey, David; welcome...I'm a bit late to the party (I see all the smoked salmon and craft beer is gone).
The thickness planer also has limitations, width of panel for starters. The weight of a solid workbench top would also really be an obstacle, should you need to plane it down.
Hand planing is good, *electric portable planers are an economical alternative*, and router planing is ideal. Having said that, you might want to consider a vacuum/dust collection system to control the debris.
HITACHI Power Tools: Products > Woodworking > Planers > P20SBK 3-1/4" Planer
https://www.boschtools.com/ca/en/boschtools-ocs/planers-pl1632-119307-p/
https://www.makita.ca/index2.php?event=toollist&categoryid=3&subcategoryid=56


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## whimsofchaz (Jun 6, 2013)

Welcome to the forum David. There is also a wealth of information in the archives and learning how to search for answers will help you a lot. There are a few discussions on the physics of using a heavy or large bit and the added torque created by having a large bit on the end of a extender. Some good reading also...just use the search feature. Learning is part of the fun!!!


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## kansaibear (Apr 2, 2018)

That I can totally get behind Dan, vacuum dust collection. Currently I've quite had my fill of sweeping up the garage and driveway.

Disappointingly, upon further use and inspection it seems the router bearing was damaged in some way. It spins up and cuts fine with small bits like a 1-1/2" chamfer, but when I used my flush trim bit which is 3/4" diameter with a 2" carbide height on a 1/2" shank the router seemed "off" a bit. It's hard to put it in words but it didn't feel the same and it wasn't cutting so buttery smooth. Plus when I released the trigger and the motor wound down to a stop I could hear an odd sound that my days as a gearhead tell me the bearing is suspect.

Any advice for changing a bearing on a brand new router?

Also, I'm going to be doing a fair amount of planing in the future so I figure investing in a good benchtop planer is in order. Any recommendations?


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

If you do plane end grain with a planer I see where the guys that do it build a sacrificial frame tight to the edges of the cutting board to eliminate the tearout that happens along the edges when planing end grain.
I have always used a drum sander during my cutting board phase.

Welcome to the forum, you are doing a great job, too bad about the mishap, glad it wasn't worse and no one got hurt.
Herb


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

> It's hard to put it in words but it didn't feel the same and it wasn't cutting so buttery smooth.


it's called run-out...
change the bearings, top and bottom and hope you didn't bend the armature shaft or damage the bearing retainers......
which YT video did you get your plans from...


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

David; Stick mentioned YouTube vids...If I remember correctly, the guys using the planers all had big commercial planers, but if I'm not mistaken most used drum sanders once they were dealing with the end grain.
I have neither the space nor the spare change ($1,200Cdn) for an open ended arm drum sander. 
A 15" planer is in the same price range.
https://www.busybeetools.com/products/planer-15in-3hp-3-knive-cutterhead-csa-cx15.html
https://www.busybeetools.com/products/18in-open-end-drum-sander-craftex.html
Me? I use my belt sander and random orbital sander...both with dust collection! (And _outdoors_ if the weather's OK)


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

DaninVan said:


> David; Stick mentioned YouTube vids...If I remember correctly, the guys using the planers all had big commercial planers, but if I'm not mistaken most used drum sanders once they were dealing with the end grain.
> I have neither the space nor the spare change ($1,200Cdn) for an open ended arm drum sander.
> A 15" planer is in the same price range.
> https://www.busybeetools.com/products/planer-15in-3hp-3-knive-cutterhead-csa-cx15.html
> ...


I had a Delta 15" like that, lost it in the fire, they don't make them any more, now there are other brands of the same design.
I had a Dewalt before it and a loose knot came out with a terrible BANG and destroyed some of the inside of the planer. I can see the same thing happening with a chunk of cutting board.

Herb


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

You know, if you're really careful with your slicing off of your end grain layup pieces, and even more careful doing the final glue-up, your unfinished panel should be pretty flat and even. An 80grit belt will take that down _very_ fast. Follow that up with a 100gr. and 120gr belt and you're ready for the R.O. sander.
I doubt that I've had to spend much more than an hour (maybe 1 1/2hr) sanding an end grain board...both sides and edges...in total. I can live with that.
One thing that wasn't mentioned earlier is/are cabinet scrapers.
Veritas® Cabinet Scraper - Lee Valley Tools


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

A more general info link (card scrapers)...


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## kansaibear (Apr 2, 2018)

Stick...
Yeah I've figured I damaged the bearings. Makes sense considering this was the third end grain block I was flattening. I ordered both bearings so we'll see once I get them changed out.
Regarding the YT videos, I watched nearly a dozen different ones then put together my jig based on what I'd seen and understood.

Dan...
True if I got everything lined up nicely and had a drum sander, I'd imagine I wouldn't need to plane it. Though I'm a beginner and don't have all the precise tools so I'm working with what I've got.
Plus I live in Japan and let's just say it's not a friendly place for DIY people, and equipment/tools are over priced. I have to budget myself when shipping stuff from the States.

For now I'm going to plane my two glued up boards at a local shop since I need to finish them; they're gifts. Once I change the bearings in my router I'll look to make a better jig setup.


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## kansaibear (Apr 2, 2018)

**Update**

Thanks again for everyone's help and input. I changed out the bearing and all is well. It was surprisingly easy on my Bosch MCS23 router.

Now to build some router skis...


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## reuelt (Dec 29, 2008)

kansaibear said:


> **Update**
> 
> Thanks again for everyone's help and input. I changed out the bearing and all is well. It was surprisingly easy on my Bosch MCS23 router.
> 
> Now to build some router skis...


Is that bit still OK (ie. NOT bent after all ?)

Planning using a hand held router is very dangerous. 
Think of other alternatives;
1. A CNC router
2. Manual Overhead firmly supported radial arm or gantry supported router 
3. A portable electric planner
3. A portable belt sander
4. Hand jointer (joiner) plane #8 or #7

All have all the above including a 3.5HP router and best Quality planner router bit. But I still prefer to flatten wood with my
ebay won AUD$15, 24" long VINTAGE but now-well TUNED and sharpened wooden jointer hand plane.
Very safe and DUST FREE too.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

What about planing using some of those amazing Japanese pull planes?


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## kansaibear (Apr 2, 2018)

@Reuel... 
Option #1&2 that you listed are out of my league and price range. I'm a DIY hobbyist at best. The electric planer won't work as I need to control for thickness as well; I'm making cutting boards. A belt sander would be an excellent addition to my tool inventory and an investment I look to likely make in the future. A hand or manual plane is not up to the task and neither are my skills up to snuff with those tools. Surprisingly the bit is not bent and operates fine.
@DesertRatTom... 
I'd love to try them and likely will in the future, but for now I'm flattening cutting boards so I need to control for thickness as well. Operating the bit at minimum speed in a smaller sled should be fine and suffice for now. Eventually I'll upgrade and get a planer. I'm building my tool shop slowly as I go, as well learning the tricks of the trade so to speak. This is a hobby for me, but I'm quickly discovering there is a demand for things that I can make so we'll see where it all goes down the line.


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## reuelt (Dec 29, 2008)

kansaibear said:


> @Reuel...
> The electric planer won't work as I need to control for thickness as well;


How about an electric planer ON A SKI?
Blades rotating horizontally (planer) is safer than blades rotating vertically(router) for planing.

A planer thicknesser that has blades rotating horizontally is even safer.


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## kansaibear (Apr 2, 2018)

Yeah no doubt a planer thicknesser would be best, and likely an investment I'll make sooner rather than later.
Looking at the Triton TPT125 as a good option; it's not too pricey and seems more than capable.


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