# Upper window sash repair



## Keith C (Jan 23, 2012)

I need to fix an upper window sash, my house was built in 1912 as far as I know. The lower rail has pulled away on a few windows and have looked on line to see how to remove the sash, lots of paint over the years, and I will replace the rail with a piece of wood that is identical but fits snugly, meaning I will have to cut to fit the joint. My question is, what is the best word to use? Someone told me most use fir. I guess I would get some number 1 fir to do this, but am open to suggestions. Also, I suspect the side rail may be rotted a little so the part that connects to the bottom rail may be bad, don't know until I get into it. Any suggestions on how to remedy this? I am thinking to do this on the weekend. I know you guys won't let me down on advice as you guys are uber-knowledgeable! Hope I'm not getting in over my head. I have all the basic tools I would need, ....oh. What router bit would I need for the internal edge of the window that opposes the glazing? I could just use a bevel cut for now, but if the local stores have the bit would definitely want it. Thanks!


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Hey, Keith; D. Fir is a great choice.
You didn't say what kind of window system you have; can we assume they're double-hung?
A DIY How-to restore your Wooden Sash Windows Jacksoville, FL
1. remove the interior trim.
2. remove the interior stops
3. remove the parting bead
4. carefully remove the weights and sash cord... _take pictures of how the cords are attached _
5. remove the two sashes
Note the beveled faces where the two sashes come together when the sahes are closed.
6. strip all the paint from the frame channels where the sashes run up and down. I like to use a heat gun and sharp scraper for that part.
Don't bother trying to salvage the stops and cords; buy/make new ones. Parting strip is a standard molding profile.
As for the new sash(s), I'd be leaning towards getting a wood-door and window shop to make them up for me. Most of the profiles are cut with a shaper and I don't have one, nor am I willing to put out the cash for specialty router bits.
They'd end up costing more than new sashes.
Good luck!


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Wood choice partly boiled down to what was locally available in generous supply and relatively inexpensive Keith. In some places oak was commonly used many years ago. D. fir is a good choice and it isn't usually too expensive. Dan covered everything else. If the old units are single glazed you might consider this an opportunity to upgrade to a new unit with double glazed which are far more efficient heating and cooling wise.


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## Keith C (Jan 23, 2012)

Yes, it is a double hung window with 2 panes in each sash. Here are pics of one of the windows.


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## coxhaus (Jul 18, 2011)

The painter must of had a wobbly ladder. Those paint lines are not very straight.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Heh...some folks shouldn't be allowed near paint. Seriously, how much extra trouble is it to come back a day later with a sharp razor and clean up the edges?
I know some DIYers use masking tape but it's really faster, and cheaper, to just use a razor blade after painting is completed..


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Picking up on what Charles said, those weight pockets on either side of the window are a horror when if comes to heat loss. There are a number of retro fitted spring loaded alternatives to the weight system.
They fit into the channels where the sashes run.
Tilt Pac Window Sash Replacement Kits | Marvin Windows


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

DaninVan said:


> Heh...some folks shouldn't be allowed near paint.


glad you see it my way...
I promise to never pick up a paint brush nor get near a container of paint... *EVER...*


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## old55 (Aug 11, 2013)

+1 what Stick said.


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## Keith C (Jan 23, 2012)

Yeah, we had crappy painters, but they were hired by the GC so didn't have a lot of say, plus we weren't able to keep a good eye on them as we didn't live at the place at the time. They were terrible at glazing, hence terrible painting/wavy lines with wavy glazing. They didn't scrape much of the excess paint off windows too, I've gone back on some and cleaned up. My house has 36 windows so more than enough work! 

On this same topic, I saw that 'This Old House' says to just dig out the rotten stuff and use this epoxy mixture to repair. Is this a bad idea? I don't know what is under the caulk that is liberally applied to fill the gap as the rail sagged, or as in the other window with no pic has pulled apart from the side rail. I feel even if I have to put a dowel in, it would be better than epoxy. I feel like that is just a bandaid and not a good idea.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

DaninVan said:


> Heh...some folks shouldn't be allowed near paint. Seriously, how much extra trouble is it to come back a day later with a sharp razor and clean up the edges?
> I know some DIYers use masking tape but it's really faster, and cheaper, to just use a razor blade after painting is completed..


It's even more efficient when you put the paint only where it needs to go. To me planning on scraping after you finish painting is like admitting defeat even before you try.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Keith C said:


> Yeah, we had crappy painters, but they were hired by the GC so didn't have a lot of say, plus we weren't able to keep a good eye on them as we didn't live at the place at the time. They were terrible at glazing, hence terrible painting/wavy lines with wavy glazing. They didn't scrape much of the excess paint off windows too, I've gone back on some and cleaned up. My house has 36 windows so more than enough work!
> 
> On this same topic, I saw that 'This Old House' says to just dig out the rotten stuff and use this epoxy mixture to repair. Is this a bad idea? I don't know what is under the caulk that is liberally applied to fill the gap as the rail sagged, or as in the other window with no pic has pulled apart from the side rail. I feel even if I have to put a dowel in, it would be better than epoxy. I feel like that is just a bandaid and not a good idea.


Keith basically everything after the initial build is a bandaid including fresh coats of paint so anything that can prolong the eventual replacement should be considered but your windows appear to be at or near the point of being structurally unsound.


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## Keith C (Jan 23, 2012)

And I'm still looking for the bit to use for this. It looks like a roman ogee to me. Here is a pic. The measurements are depth into rail towards window is about 1/2". The distance along the rail parallel with the plane of the window is about 1/4". What bit should I use for this? I have a couple ogee bits but neither fits. One doesn't have a bearing (bit looks like a bell) and the other does, but both are too big of a diameter I think. I was holding the bit so the spin plane is in plane with the window, but maybe it should be 90 degrees to that and just cut not too deep? Stick with me guys, trying to learn and do it myself!  Thanks for all your advice and help.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Keith C said:


> Yeah, we had crappy painters, but they were hired by the GC so didn't have a lot of say, .


you had everything to say...
by not saying anything you accepted what you got and let the GC slide...


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Keith; that epoxy route is a great way to fix rot in the outside sill, and maybe small spots in the sash that are just beginning to deteriorate, but it's not a fix for rotten sash. Not saying it wouldn't work in the short term, but it ain't cheap and will require a _lot_ of work.
You'd still need to disassemble and strip the wood down to bare.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Keith C said:


> And I'm still looking for the bit to use for this. It looks like a roman ogee to me. Here is a pic. The measurements are depth into rail towards window is about 1/2". The distance along the rail parallel with the plane of the window is about 1/4". What bit should I use for this? I have a couple ogee bits but neither fits. One doesn't have a bearing (bit looks like a bell) and the other does, but both are too big of a diameter I think. I was holding the bit so the spin plane is in plane with the window, but maybe it should be 90 degrees to that and just cut not too deep? Stick with me guys, trying to learn and do it myself!  Thanks for all your advice and help.


That looks to me like a roman ogee too Keith and they come in a variety of sizes. If you had a shaper you could probably get a bit that cut both sides at once plus the groove for the pane(s). You are better off to do one side at a time. I would cut the channel for the glass on a table saw. Windows and doors are often joined at the corners with saddle joints which is a mortice and tenon that goes all the way to an edge or two edges. You don't have to use that joint but you do need good strong joinery at the corners to keep it square over hundreds of cycles of opening and closing.


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## thomas1389 (Jan 4, 2012)

Stick486 said:


> you had everything to say...
> by not saying anything you accepted what you got and let the GC slide...


I haven't learned all the codes yet. So please, what's a GC ?


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## chuckgray (Aug 2, 2015)

General contractor


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Thomas; we're bad about that... 
We two-finger typists use any excuse to reduce the typing. Thanks for reminding us to not take things for granted.
PT...pressure treated
S4S...sanded 4 sides (conversely S12E is sanded one side and both edges)
D. Fir...Douglas Fir
SPF...Spruce/Pine/Fir basically Northern species that can be a mixed bag in the 'lift'. What the mill ships.
RL...random lengths

TS...table saw
DP... drill press

feel free to add to the list, folks.


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## chuckgray (Aug 2, 2015)

I've also seen S4S to mean surfaced 4 sides.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

*S4s*



chuckgray said:


> I've also seen S4S to mean surfaced 4 sides.


Yes. Either way works for me...you're probably more correct in that I'm guessing that a pass through the planer is all it gets.


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

Keith C said:


> And I'm still looking for the bit to use for this. .


Keith...I wonder if that's not a 1/4 round with a lot of paint built up...?


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Nickp said:


> Keith...I wonder if that's not a 1/4 round with a lot of paint built up...?


Certainly possible. There are 3 ways it can get done, 2 of which are/were common. At one time the panes were puttied in to place so replacement involved chipping out the old putty, new glass and new putty. That was only with single pane glass as best I know. Next are small moldings holding the glass in. Last would be to install the glass as you assemble the frame but if you break a window you start over from scratch.


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## Keith C (Jan 23, 2012)

So I've finally gotten around to removing the lower sash. The upper sash looks a little ugly with the middle divider between the pains (name?) looking pretty rotted, hope I don't need to make a new one but we'll see. Haven't gotten the upper sash out, but it is partially loose. It seems I need to cut away caulk/paint/whatever on the outside. Hope I can do it without removing the storm. One question though. I was reading this old house on a post of removing the upper sash. What is actually holding it in place? I thought someone had told me there was a cord and weight for it, but that doesn't really make sense unless it is recessed. Thanks for any help. I'll post some pics later.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

*Yes.*



Keith C said:


> So I've finally gotten around to removing the lower sash. The upper sash looks a little ugly with the middle divider between the pains (name?) looking pretty rotted, hope I don't need to make a new one but we'll see. Haven't gotten the upper sash out, but it is partially loose. It seems I need to cut away caulk/paint/whatever on the outside. Hope I can do it without removing the storm. One question though. I was reading this old house on a post of removing the upper sash. What is actually holding it in place? I thought someone had told me there was a cord and weight for it, but that doesn't really make sense unless it is recessed. Thanks for any help. I'll post some pics later.


Yes. The cord, on either side, loops over the pulley at the top side. It falls away into a weight cavity on the other side of the frame member that makes up the side that the window runs in. And yes you will need to separate the sash from the exterior paint.
If you've already removed the 1/2" x 3/4" parting strips that separates the upper and lower sashes, you should be able to work away at loosening the upper sash by reaching the exterior from the inside.
A little prying and tapping should break the seal.
One of those 5 in 1 scraper tools will be your new best friend.
Some double hung window frames had a small removable 'access panel' on the sides but they're a major hassle, especially if you've never done this before.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Wait! Heads up!
If the cords have rotted/broken, all that will be supporting the upper sash will be that bonded paint...the sash would just fall out (in) once you break the paint seal.
A second set of hands couldn't hurt.

When you go to buy new cord, you will be asking specifically for SASH CORD...that's what it's called. Accept no substitutes. It does come in various diameters.
As i said in my first response, pay a lot of attention to exactly how the cords are attached. Take pics of the old arrangement before you junk the old stuff. Make sure you remember which weights are for which sash.
One of the problems with upgrading to sealed units is that the weight of the glazed sash will no longer be counterbalanced by the existing weights. You'd have to find heavier ones. Believe it or not there are guys that collect that sort of stuff.
If you can find a wood window and door shop, they likely have salvaged some.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Good vid...
https://www.thisoldhouse.com/how-to/how-to-replace-window-sash-cords
Not all windows will be exactly the same but in general, pretty similar.


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## Keith C (Jan 23, 2012)

OK, got both windows out, storm window seems to keep the house from getting too cold!  Next question. What is the best way to deglaze the windows without breaking the pane? I'm 0-2 so far. I have to replace one in the other sash as well, so I only have one good pane left. I don't have a deglazing tool, which I've seen on line but no local dealer has one. I successfully was using the multi tool on an angle but that got a bit dicey and nicked the pane a little when it slid off the glazing. I though about using the router with a guide board clamped down to keep from getting into the wood. I also thought about using the multi tool and just going straight down to avoid slipping off and damaging the pane, and just taking it slow across the joint. When a window is still in place, I've used a chisel with pretty good success, but this window was about 20 feet or so up and don't really like being up that high working on a ladder. Suggestions much appreciated!


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Hey, Keith; progress! 
Don't try the router thing! The glass is initially installed using glazing points...small metal diamond shaped fasteners that are put in using a chisel or screwdriver. I think you'd not be happy if your bit hit one.
Personally, I just use a putty knife and a finish hammer or rubber mallet to loosen and split away the putty piece by piece (very carefully.the glass shouldn't be closer than a 1/16" to the wood mullions...in theory at least.
keep the flat flexible blade parallel to the face of the glass as much as possible.
There's a toothless blade for the multitool that works slick as s**t for this kind of job. I separated a bunch of sealed unit glass in record time using it. 
https://www.blackrocktools.com/bosc...!!g!!&ef_id=WAHTmQAAAQRAUh4x:20161015151047:s
Since there's no teeth, any brand will do; cheap is probably good, but it won't wear out so maybe $10 is a good investment(?).


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## Keith C (Jan 23, 2012)

OK, next question. I have the window apart, the panes are out, except one in the good sash. I did an OK job with pane 3, course it was already cracked at one corner. Anyhow, my question.
The upper sash check rail looks like it has an angle cut on the bottom of it. Is there a rule of thumb on what angle to use? 10 degrees? And is the rail square other than that? It is a little hard to tell with mine as the ends are rotted some. Fortunately the side rails look in OK shape. The middle divider between the two panes looks a little bad on the end, but I think there is enough wood to glue to. Any advice here would help as well. The tenon only juts out maybe 1/2" and not the full width. Should I just cut it flat and screw into it from the check rail? Or use a dowel and glue? I'm thinking the dowel might be easiest.

Thanks again guys!


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Keith; that angle is what I mentioned way back in the correspondence. It mates with a mirrored angle on the lower sash; they push against each other when the sashes are closed. This forces the respective sashes outwards from each other jamming them tightly against the inner and outer stops. This makes for rattle free windows and supposedly helps with draft proofing. 
10 deg seems a little steep(?)...what does yours measure? Remember both mating surfaces need the same slope.
If this is a wee bit unclear, the pic below might help.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

I completely forgot to mention that it's the sash lock that uses a camming action to force the two sashes tightly against each other.

Two different brands:


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## mgmine (Jan 16, 2012)

You seem to have gotten through the hardest parts. Now you have to get it fixed. First off is the bottom rotted? If not really rotted then get some Minwax wood hardener. Strip off the old paint and put it on. Here is a Youtube video using the stuff.






If all goes well then I would squeeze some glue in the joints and use some pocket hole screws to hold it together. The last thing I would try would be making a new bottom. The reason is that you will never be able to get a piece of wood to fit as it should fit. In order to fit correctly you would need the same bit that was made to do the coping on the inside edges. You may be able to semi copy what you can see on the outside but not the inside cuts. In a worst case I would hold the window together from the outside which being 20 feet off the ground you would never see. Use either mending plates or a piece of plywood the length of the window.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

20' up? I strongly recommend renting scaffolding. It's not that expensive and you'll be glad you did. It will make the job a lot easier and a lot safer.


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## Keith C (Jan 23, 2012)

OK, got things mostly fixed, just need to install the window panes, glaze paint and reinstall. Question about the parting bead. I bought the parting bead and wonder how to install. Do you just press the bead in? Nail it in? I think it was tacked in a few places, but certainly not all the way. On removal, it came apart. If you just force it in, any special technique? Using a putty knife and hammer? I've looked and don't see any good videos on youtube.

Things I've learned.

1. Quick grip clamps don't hold good enough to hold a straight edge in place when routing a straight edge.
2. Make sure you are familiar with your router and have the bit completely inserted into collette so that it holds properly and doesn't come out. Learned this the hard way, sadly on my check rail after it was already installed.
3. Make sure you have the glazing groove cut into the check rail before you glue to the rest of the window.
4. Trying to mate up to an old window with a new check rail isn't easy.
5. Turn off your router before you set it down.
6. If you do set it down before it is fully stopped, make sure you have the plunge lock disengaged. Your table saw surface will thank you.
7. Make sure the glass cutter cuts the glass exactly to your specified dimensions.
8. A good set of chisels is invaluable!

I'm sure there are others, but those are the main things I have learned.


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## Keith C (Jan 23, 2012)

A pic of the check rail that I made. It's a little ugly, so far so good. I accidentally routed the wrong direction so have an area that is blank.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Hey, Keith; re the parting strip.
Make sure the channels are nice and clean, ie no paint blobs etc. I like to 'break' the two back edges of the strips so that they go in without chewing up the the two front edges of the channels (but that's just me).
Yes, it's a press fit. A small block of wood and a hammer might be needed to get it in...but be careful, if it's too tight you could split the window frame, by forcing it into the channel!
I usually put a couple of small finish nails in, especially if the fit is a bit sloppy. Keep in mind that it's going to be painted; that would in effect glue them in.
Did you put the rear sash in before doing the strips?
If you haven't already, this might be a good opportunity to do any painting on the frames before installing the sashes, painting the sashes is easier as well (especially the exterior).
Be careful of paint buildup...not welcome at this stage.


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