# Not a Smooth Cut!



## RMW556 (Apr 10, 2015)

Howdy Folks!

I have a brand new Bosch 1617EVSPK on a Bosch 1181 routing table with a brand new Bosch 1.5" straight bit. I WANTED to use this setup as a jointer.

I am completely new to woodworking with Zero training or experience. I am signing up for classes at Palomar College summer session. In the meantime I tried to make a SIMPLE stand for a press. The stand consists of 5 pieces of 1" Red Oak (which I cut from a stair tread). I found I couldn't cut perfectly square edges with a Makita circular saw with a 90 tooth blade - even using a clamping straightedge.

No problem thinks I - I did some research and got a Router setup (above) to make those edges clean and Square. Uh - Yeah.

I Just turned on the table after assembling everything. I have the 1/16th shim on the left fence and adjusted it so it is parallel to the bit. There is a 1/16th gap behind the straight edge on the right fence. When feeding the piece from right-to-left there is chatter and I get a wavy edge with a significant dip on the trailing end of the piece. Also I am getting inconsistent chip size from the routed piece. Thee are small shavings (expected) and some outright chips). The bit is tight (and I did raise it 1/8th inch before locking it into the collet). 

I know this is pilot error. I watched a lot of videos on the process before I purchased the equipment and I am not getting a smooth, clean edge.

Thoughts? RPM? Not a smooth feed? Not enough pressure against the left fence?


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

RMW556 said:


> Howdy Folks!
> 
> I have a brand new Bosch 1617EVSPK on a Bosch 1181 routing table with a brand new Bosch 1.5" straight bit. I WANTED to use this setup as a jointer.
> 
> ...


see your owners manual for RPM settings and feed rates...

dull bit... (there's better than Bosch bits... I like Freud)
wrong bit...
too fast of a feed rate...
biting off too much material in one pass..
wrong feed direction... table feed is from the right to the left...
lead in fence isn't set back from the bit...
exit fence isn't flush to the bit...
table surface is sticky.. wax it w/ furniture paste wax that DOES NOT have silicone in it...
Johnson's furniture paste wax works well...

use either your speed square or clamp on straight edge and fee hand rout...

see your hello post BTW...


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## RMW556 (Apr 10, 2015)

dull bit... (there's better than Bosch bits... I like Freud) - Will upgrade to Freud 
wrong bit...(Freud® Downshear Helix Flush Trim Router Bits - 1/2" Shank) - Will Try One
too fast of a feed rate... - If anything maybe too slow?
biting off too much material in one pass.. - Only 1/16th"?
wrong feed direction... table feed is from the right to the left... - Nope - Right-to-Left
lead in fence isn't set back from the bit... - Also Nope - set back 1/16th"
exit fence isn't flush to the bit... - Double checked and properly offset
table surface is sticky.. wax it w/ furniture paste wax that DOES NOT have silicone in it... - Maybe - will wax.
Johnson's furniture paste wax works well...

What is weird to me is why the double dip off of the trailing end of the cut? Also I saw a chart somewhere (and didn't print it out dang it!) of suggested speeds with different species of wood. Red Oak = hard and dense - right? I want to build something elegant and furniture-like but it must first be Extremely Strong. As soon as I can get past the newbie restriction of posting external links I will post the plans for the piece in question. They suggested using angle iron to reinforce - Ugggg-ly!


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

double dip off of the trailing end of the cut????

exit fence should not be off set...

were the PDF's any help???


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Mike if you have a dip at the end it's probably because the setup isn't perfect and for this operation it has to be perfect. The rough edge may be a result of trying to take too much wood off in one pass. Maybe you should be looking at a pass as small as 1/64th. Common playing cards make excellent shims as the cards are very uniform in thickness. Stick is right about the Bosch bits. They are very average at best. Whiteside are rated the best. Freud is good although a Fine Woodworking test rated Lee Valley, Infinity, BC Saw, Rockler and a couple others as better but that test is 8 years ol now. You can find it easily gy googling it and it may be had for free on FWW's website.

You may be able to check the accuracy of your setup by stopping half way through the cut and see if there is a gap behind the piece at the front end or at the right side fence next to the bit.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Hey, Michael!
One thing caught my attention..._" I found I couldn't cut perfectly square edges with a Makita circular saw with a 90 tooth blade - even using a clamping straightedge."_
Are you talking about an 8 1/4" blade or smaller? With 90 teeth?!
Holy mackerel, that's a fine tooth blade for a builders saw. 
I'd have suggested a 40 or at most 60 tooth blade for cutting a hardwood stair tread, Did you have burn marks on the wood or the blade?
Can you get access to a tablesaw? (With a decent blade on it!)
You could resaw your material on it...maybe a 1/32" off the sawn faces? Should get you back to being flat and smooth.


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## sunnybob (Apr 3, 2015)

I feel your pain, I too am brand new to routing. But the one thing you didnt mention was how you are applying pressure to the wood. If you are just using push sticks, that could be your problem. Use feather boards pushed up tight to the wood to stop it being forced away from the bit.
And thinner slices makes a huge difference to quality of cut.


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## Quillman (Aug 16, 2010)

Will show you.
Email to [email protected] 
Will demonstrate a short freebie.


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## MEBCWD (Jan 14, 2012)

Michael,

You should be taking light cuts like Charles suggested.

I usually set up my in-feed fence first where I am taking a very light cut (maybe even less than Charles suggested). Then I adjust the out-feed fence so that a straightedge against the out-feed fence and parallel to the in-feed fence also hits the cutting edge of the bit. I check this by running a board half way through, turn off the router and put the board up against the fences to check for any misalignment, then realign if needed.

When feeding a board through the setup pressure should be on the in-feed fence at the beginning of the feed then half way through pressure should be on the out feed fence.

Another cause could be grain orientation letting the bit pull chunks out instead of cutting cleanly.


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## RMW556 (Apr 10, 2015)

*Re: Playing Cards*



Cherryville Chuck said:


> Mike if you have a dip at the end it's probably because the setup isn't perfect and for this operation it has to be perfect. The rough edge may be a result of trying to take too much wood off in one pass. Maybe you should be looking at a pass as small as 1/64th. Common playing cards make excellent shims as the cards are very uniform in thickness. Stick is right about the Bosch bits. They are very average at best. Whiteside are rated the best. Freud is good although a Fine Woodworking test rated Lee Valley, Infinity, BC Saw, Rockler and a couple others as better but that test is 8 years ol now. You can find it easily gy googling it and it may be had for free on FWW's website.
> 
> You may be able to check the accuracy of your setup by stopping half way through the cut and see if there is a gap behind the piece at the front end or at the right side fence next to the bit.


OK then! So far I am going to improve my current setup by getting a better bit, waxing the table surface and using some playing cards as shims. That will take a day or two with my schedule but I will eliminate the most likely causes and move forward from there. I appreciate the experience you are sharing. I will report back my results too.

Have a Great Weekend!


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## RMW556 (Apr 10, 2015)

*Circular Blade Teeth*



DaninVan said:


> Hey, Michael!
> One thing caught my attention..._" I found I couldn't cut perfectly square edges with a Makita circular saw with a 90 tooth blade - even using a clamping straightedge."_
> Are you talking about an 8 1/4" blade or smaller? With 90 teeth?!
> Holy mackerel, that's a fine tooth blade for a builders saw.
> ...


Good Morning! Well your reply made me wonder if I was quoting the correct number of teeth on that saw blade. I fear the answer is worse than the original quote - 6 1/2" blade - 140 Teeth! I had very little burn on the wood and none on the blade. That may be because the blade was coated with melted PVC from a previous project (made some beautiful tomato cages from 3/4" PVC)

I have feelers out for a table saw - I tend to buy well and buy once. I want tools to hand down to my son in 20 years.

So I should be looking for a 40 tooth blade for Red Oak? Freud or ?

Thanks again for the input! When I jump into something I don't dip my toes first - or check for rocks! LOL


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## RMW556 (Apr 10, 2015)

*Method of Pressure Application*



sunnybob said:


> I feel your pain, I too am brand new to routing. But the one thing you didnt mention was how you are applying pressure to the wood. If you are just using push sticks, that could be your problem. Use feather boards pushed up tight to the wood to stop it being forced away from the bit.
> And thinner slices makes a huge difference to quality of cut.


In this case the work piece was big enough that my finger were 6-7" away from the blade. I wondered in my push technique might cause the slight waviness of the cut. I did have a feather board above the piece but not closest to me on the table top proper. Will correct that as well. 

As for thinner slices - in my naivete I though 1/16" was a thin slice. I understand now that 1/64" might be a better starting point - especially on hardwood? Funny - in my Other hobby I deal with .001" when making changes. I shouldn't be shocked at 1/64" vs. 1/16"!


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## RMW556 (Apr 10, 2015)

*Grain Orientation and Checking Work*



MEBCWD said:


> Michael,
> 
> You should be taking light cuts like Charles suggested.
> 
> ...


In this case there is an angle of about 30 degrees across the grain - and maybe that explains Everything! I may try some scrap and run it through parallel to the edge grain and even along the end grain to see the difference.

Everything little bit of information leads to discovery so thanks for raising that question!


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## RMW556 (Apr 10, 2015)

*Feed Rates*



Stick486 said:


> double dip off of the trailing end of the cut????
> 
> exit fence should not be off set...
> 
> were the PDF's any help???


Howdy! Yes - The Bosch specific table for feed rates is extremely helpful. Also the second PDF showing the faster feed/slower bit speed vs. the slower feed/faster bit speed makes total sense.

I suspect that this endeavor, like all aspects of life, will just require time-in-grade to gather experience as to the right feel for desired results!

Thanks again and Have a Great Day!


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Michael; what kind of circ. saw are you using?! A 6 1/2" blade is a bit unusual, and 140 teeth?! Where'd you even find that?
You may need to invest in a few different blades;
A combination blade style, maybe 24 tooth for general carpentry,
a* thin kerf* 40 tooth for cutting plywood...a 60 tooth maximum for the fine cuts and crosscutting hardwood... the 40 tooth maximum for ripping hardwood (with the grain is a tougher task).

If the saw is a decent 7 1/4" I'd suggest staying with that size dia. blade as they're the most widely available. Having said that, the Laws of Physics suggest that the bigger the blade the more horsepower is required to accomplish the same amount of work at the tip. ie the bigger the blade the more trouble you'll have on the tough tasks. More teeth give you a finer finish on the cut, but require a lot more effort to _make_ the cut!
http://www.cmtutensili.com/show_ite...This=true&TB_iframe=true&height=250&width=350


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

RMW556 said:


> So I should be looking for a 40 tooth blade for Red Oak? Freud or ?
> 
> Thanks again for the input! When I jump into something I don't dip my toes first - or check for rocks! LOL


a 24 or a 36T would work if it's sharp...
Freud is a very good bang for the buck....
more teeth need more power... what saw do you have to use right now...

as for the TS... how far up the scale do you want to go???


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## RMW556 (Apr 10, 2015)

*Table Saw*



Stick486 said:


> a 24 or a 36T would work if it's sharp...
> Freud is a very good bang for the buck....
> more teeth need more power... what saw do you have to use right now...
> 
> as for the TS... how far up the scale do you want to go???


I don't want to go too far off topic And - I have seen table saws for $4,000. Since I am not a lottery winner and I am preparing to send my youngest son off to college - not to mention a wedding for my daughter - I will have to find something "decent enough". And I will most likely wait until I have finished the course at Palomar College. They have a deep wood program if this catches (and holds!) me. If I am still in wood up to my ears after the class I can safely justify some expense.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

going off topic around here seems to be the norm sometimes...


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Sometimes?! *shocked* lol


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

A friend wanted to upgrade to a better bigger saw and didn't have room to keep the old one. I have a fair bit of room and wanted a decent backup saw. He sold me his old Rockwell 10" for $100. It came with a usable fence but I already had a better after market one. If you keep your eyes open you might be able to find a deal similar. You could also talk to stores selling new saws and see if any one wanting to upgrade is trying to get them to take the old one as a trade in. Add a table on the end and an out feed table on the back and you'll be pretty well set until you can afford a bigger better one of your own.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

DaninVan said:


> Sometimes?! *shocked* lol


just shocked???


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## RMW556 (Apr 10, 2015)

*Local Rockler*



Cherryville Chuck said:


> A friend wanted to upgrade to a better bigger saw and didn't have room to keep the old one. I have a fair bit of room and wanted a decent backup saw. He sold me his old Rockwell 10" for $100. It came with a usable fence but I already had a better after market one. If you keep your eyes open you might be able to find a deal similar. You could also talk to stores selling new saws and see if any one wanting to upgrade is trying to get them to take the old one as a trade in. Add a table on the end and an out feed table on the back and you'll be pretty well set until you can afford a bigger better one of your own.


While I was down at Rockler I overheard one of the employees telling someone that he would be taking the same class I am signing up for. I made sure to introduce myself and told him I would see him there. Helps that both of us have backgrounds in photography and IT.

I will talk to him about people upgrading and selling off their current saw. I will also continue to gather information so I will know what I am looking at and don't just buy the first thing available. I like fine tools and believe in leaving a heritage for my boy!


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

Michael...maybe a quick check of the basics...I have the same setup...

Can you confirm that the two fences are exactly in line with each other without the offset pieces...? Take both fences completely off and make sure there is no sawdust behind them. At one point I had a problem lining up the fences after using the offset spacers and it turned out to be my shoving sawdust behind the fence after taking the spacer out...now I clean off the table anytime I change the configuration...

Can you confirm that the offset spacer does not cause misalignment of the two fences...? Place the spacer behind the left fence, put a straightedge rule across the two fences and see if there is equal spacing along the full length of the right fence as a result of the offset spacer...

Check the bit itself...using a straightedge rule push the fence until the straightedge is right on the bit cutting edge. Now spin the bit 180* and see that the measurement is exactly the same (in case one of your cutting edges is not at exactly the same distance from the center of the bit as the other)...

Speed charts can be found all over the place but basically if you are using something like a 1/2" straight bit your router speed should be pretty close to top speed...

Hope this helps...


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

*Didn't Know That...*

Michael; I found a blade that sounds like the one you were using. Is it on this list?
That might be of help to members that do inlay work, extremely fine cut and a lot of teeth for the very thin material(?).


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## PhilBa (Sep 25, 2014)

michael, start surfin craigs list. You can set up email notifications when a posting matches your search terms. That way you can jump on a good deal as soon as it's posted. You will find a lot of sellers that a very proud of their stuff but sometimes a real deal shows up.


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## RMW556 (Apr 10, 2015)

*Irwin 140 Tooth Blade*



DaninVan said:


> Michael; I found a blade that sounds like the one you were using. Is it on this list?
> That might be of help to members that do inlay work, extremely fine cut and a lot of teeth for the very thin material(?).


I just looked at it. I have a Lot of melted PVC on the outer half of the disc and I am not sure I did it any favors sawing through about 12' of cuts on 1" Red Oak. I think I will have to relegate it to the PVC tomato cage project. Sorry Guys!


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## RMW556 (Apr 10, 2015)

*Bosch Router Table*



Nickp said:


> Michael...maybe a quick check of the basics...I have the same setup...
> 
> Can you confirm that the two fences are exactly in line with each other without the offset pieces...? Take both fences completely off and make sure there is no sawdust behind them. At one point I had a problem lining up the fences after using the offset spacers and it turned out to be my shoving sawdust behind the fence after taking the spacer out...now I clean off the table anytime I change the configuration...
> 
> ...


Well I can confirm that there is no misalignment between the left fence and the right fence - there is indeed an equal spacing all down along the right fence.

The bit I will have to check tomorrow or Monday. And yep! I do indeed have the 1/2" bit. Intuitively I figured it would be less prone to distortion.

Thanks for checking in and I'll check that bit soon!


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## RMW556 (Apr 10, 2015)

*BAck to the Table Saw*



PhilBa said:


> michael, start surfin craigs list. You can set up email notifications when a posting matches your search terms. That way you can jump on a good deal as soon as it's posted. You will find a lot of sellers that a very proud of their stuff but sometimes a real deal shows up.


I can certainly check Craig's List. I also just got a line on a table saw that belonged to a neighbor now passed. He was one of the teachers at the Palomar Wood class. Should be high quality And I will be respectful of his widow's timing for when she wants to sell.
I get Blessed a lot when I listen to what God has in mind for me!


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## sunnybob (Apr 3, 2015)

As for thinner slices - in my naivete I though 1/16" was a thin slice. I understand now that 1/64" might be a better starting point - especially on hardwood? Funny - in my Other hobby I deal with .001" when making changes. I shouldn't be shocked at 1/64" vs. 1/16"![/QUOTE]

I'm being self taught as i go along with this table, apart from this site I'm on my own. I can cut off almost a half inch of 9mm plywood at a time and get a reasonable smooth finish. I tried that on an 8" square piece of unsupported hardwood.....
It snapped the 20mm thick piece like it was balsa wood, threw one half at me and the other half out the shop door. :fie:

This router table is the first machine that has ever scared me, after 50 years of all kinds of metalworking machinery.

the local saying here in greek is "siga, siga" which translates as "slowly slowly", it applies perfectly to cutting hardwood on a router table :dirol::dirol:


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## RMW556 (Apr 10, 2015)

OK then! My machine hasn't thrown anything at me yet - and I have given it the same courtesy! LOL I was tempted I will admit!

I think "Siga, siga" is sage advice and I will take it a little at a time. I am a recovering perfectionist and my new goal is merely Excellence.

Thanks for the support! It's pretty cool getting these answers from a truly international set of people with similar interests!

Have a Great Day!


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## Alf Beharie (Apr 12, 2015)

RMW556 said:


> I can certainly check Craig's List. I also just got a line on a table saw that belonged to a neighbor now passed. He was one of the teachers at the Palomar Wood class. Should be high quality And I will be respectful of his widow's timing for when she wants to sell.
> I get Blessed a lot when I listen to what God has in mind for me!


Craig's List? First place I would look is ebay! Tip: Make sure you select used items on the left hand check box as this will rule out all the overpriced new items. You can get real bargains on there.


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## RMW556 (Apr 10, 2015)

OK - tried a piece of cedar without changing anything else. It cut smooth as a baby's butt! Same bit, same depth settings, same everything.

Re-examining the oak I can see that I was trying to joint it using the router on a diagonal to the grain. The bit was just digging into the grain all along the length. I still need practice and instruction for getting a good 90 degree square edge but at least the mystery of the terrible cut is solved.

Thanks to all with their various suggestions - all were helpful and appreciated.

Lastly I just found out that the next night class for woodworking isn't until August. Well - I'll have plenty of time to get "experience" and build up some more questions!

Have a Great Day All!


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

lessen how much material you take off in one pass....


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