# First Time Poster: Trying To Balance Actual Need Vs. Want



## tkleff (Feb 5, 2012)

Hi All, 

Glad to have what seems to be a well-rounded and friendly forum to ask dumb questions. 

Turns out, I really enjoy building things. Over the past 1-3 years I tackled a few projects. The projects increased in intensity and their challenge; the more challenging the project, the more invigorated I became and the more fulfilled I felt at the end. Here's the basic project list, over the past two years: 

1) Loft Bed (built to plan specifications); 
2) hanging bike rack for three bikes; 
3) Floating drum riser for electronic drums; 
4) shelves throughout old and new place (classic mounting shelves); 
5) air conditioned dog house; 

All of these projects emphasize function over form, much to my wife's displeasure. (but, the doghouse is nicely painted and seems to be my best work so far). 

I purchases several new tools in the past 2-3 months, in preparation for not only the dog house, but also for the delivery of several projects. Two friends saw the doghouse and announced they wanted me to build something for them (a chicken coop and a standing desk). I cut a simple deal with them -- nothing like getting paid while you're learning: I said I'd build it so long as they paid for materials and gave me $100 bucks. 

In addition to a toolbox filled with "regular" tools, I have these power tools: 
1) a few drills; 
2) circular saw; 
3) dewalt table saw; 
4) Ridgid miter saw; 
5) Ridgid router; 
6) black and decker belt sander; 
7) two reciprocating saw (I screwed up the measurements for the opening to the AC on the doghouse, so I had to rip a new hole ). 

In addition to the paid chicken coop and standing desk, I'd like to build a bookcase for my newborn son. On the others, I've had plans to work from -- which, in my view, made it much more simple. I've drawn the plans on sketch up for the bookcase (with the google color scheme to match) -- and I'm more or less ready to start. 

In addition to the tools, I've made a great effort to try to read as much as I can about the tools I intend to use. I have 3-4 table saw books (Toplin's Table Saw Magic, has really caught my attention), several router books, and some general interest woodworking books. I've read alot of that stuff, but I'd really like to dig in and get building again. But, there's a wrinke. . . (isn't there always a wrinkle!). 

I am continually caught between trying to build jigs that make things easier and safer (see below for that discussion) and trying to actually do some building. Yesterday I caught the wood necessary for Toplin's Universal Rip Fence. (I ordered the particular parts necessary for it online, but they won't be here for a few days). In wading through his "sketch" plans, I saw one word that set me on a multi-day/hour detour: biscuit. Turns out, he wants a biscuit joint between two plywood pieces (I suppose not only to ensure 90 deg angles but also to ensure strength and stability). 

So, I started to search the internet. I determined I could go buy a biscuit jointer for a few hundred bucks. I also determined that one could use a router with a specially designed bit to also create a biscuit joint. (Neither of the big box retailers around here seem to have that bit set). And, this is far afield from my initial goal of building a bookcase. I realize the right tool would be the biscuit joint, and also realized I could probably configure the universal rip fence with a 2x2 or 1x1 up against it to accomplish the same idea as the biscuit joint. So, I struggle with what I call "tool creep" and with "jig creep." 

And, I want to build the universal rip fence so I can use the taper rip fence that Toplin has in his book (those parts are also ordered and due to arrive by next weekend, so this weekend, like last weekend, is basically lost). The taper rip fence would be used in the next three projects I have. Truth is, I cheated at the taper rip fence by screwing boards that had to be ripped to a piece of plywood at an angle and got them ripped for the last two projects, but it may not have been 100% safe, and it's clear to me there will be many taper cuts in my future). 

OK, so what's the goal -- _and_ what's the question, right? 

My goal is to enjoy this as a hobby and actually build useful things. (With a more ultimate goal that when my wife and I move to San Diego (from LA), I want to buy a fixer and use some of these skills for that work). 

THE QUESTION(S): 

1) When do you build jigs? A friend says, when you've rigged something twice, that's the time to build the jig, agree or disagree?
2) When do you buy tools? 

It's unrealistic that I'm going to buy every tool at every turn. That said, I'm not afraid of investing in tools. In fact, I try to be frugal about it -- I've been looking for additional clamps on eBay and Craigslist, and some of the tools I've gotten for 50% by purchasing second hand on craigslist). 

Within this, would you buy a biscuit jointer, the router bits, or configure the universal rip fence in another way? 

Any other thoughts appreciated. I'm just trying to figure out some stuff and have some fun along the way . 

--Craig.


----------



## OPG3 (Jan 9, 2011)

Craig, You have certainly looked at your endeavor from several angles. You will never collect all of the tools one might use in woodworking, but there are several that can be done without. I've built many bookcases, museum display cases, custom furniture, cages and hundreds of prototypes for all types of things, and quite frankly I do not own a biscuit joiner, nor do I have plans to get one anytime soon. My bookcases have utilized dado joinery, dowel joinery, bracketed joints, ledge joints and rabbet joinery. You will get many opinions on this that will differ from mine, but I personally feel that biscuit joinery is over-rated. Above all, be safe doing whatever you choose! *OPG3*


----------



## waho6o9 (Apr 4, 2010)

Festool


----------



## Clyde_WoodBee (Jan 15, 2012)

*Juggliing Need vs Wants*

The basic thing I started doing early on was using simple, inexpensive, doweling jigs made by Sears to do aligned joints and end joining small cross section pieces to their mating pieces. This takes time in the setup, but is as effective as a biscuit joiner and, in my opinion, stronger.

I have 'graduated' into biscuit joinery and use it often to align and join flat panels made from several boards, and right angle joinery in furniture cases and cabinet carcases. The doweling works just as good.

In the past, currently, and in the future I will use techniques that employ rabbets, dovetails, dadoes, splined, mortise and tenon, lapped joints, even a drawer box bit for the router in preference to do a biscuit joint in the piece I am making.

That said, there are reasons for using a biscuit joiner in large scale/quantity work such as kitchen cabinetry. Biscuit joinery is fast, lends itself to quantity mass production, and does indeed align edges and faces accurately. (Although you can screw it up by making a mistake {;<) )

But, based on 55 years of experience, I recommend that you perfect all the other methods of joinery first. The best fine furniture artisans I have met, never use the biscuit joiner.


----------



## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi

Just my 2 cents 

If you want things to turn use a round pin but if you must use dowel pins use square ones 

===



Clyde_WoodBee said:


> The basic thing I started doing early on was using simple, inexpensive, doweling jigs made by Sears to do aligned joints and end joining small cross section pieces to their mating pieces. This takes time in the setup, but is as effective as a biscuit joiner and, in my opinion, stronger.
> 
> I have 'graduated' into biscuit joinery and use it often to align and join flat panels made from several boards, and right angle joinery in furniture cases and cabinet carcases. The doweling works just as good.
> 
> ...


----------



## Clyde_WoodBee (Jan 15, 2012)

*When to Jig or Buy Tools*

Your friend is correct in recommending a jig to do 2 or more items the same.

I build two types of jigs. Universal and project specific.

In the Universal category, some examples of I have made:
1. A "box sled" for projects that i need to have squared ends and prevent chip-out.

2. A miter sled with extension arms that permit me to do right angled moldings and picture frames in quantity and always square.

3. Several sliding sleds for my router table that enable me to handle small parts and end rout rials and narrow pieces.

4. An adjustable jig to hold shaped parts for pin routing edges safely.

Lots more can be listed.

Project specific jigs include:

1. A two jig setup to mass produce gift boxes from crown and other types of molding.

2. A jig to create plunge router mortise holes for slats in the cradle for our first grandchild, and it survived for the subsequent two also.

3. A jig to accurately create routed inserts in a table project.

4. A jig to produce Mortises and tenons in a table project.

In a sense some of these could become "universal" if I make projects that require my pulling them down and re-using them.

The best jig making advice I received from a friend who is not only a master craftsman, but has taught woodworking. His advice: 

IF You want to do it right the first time, make a jig that will ensure accuracy. And make it so that you can use it in the future for similar purposes.

When to buy the new tool? My rule of thinking is:
1. Can I do it accurately and safely with what I have?
2. How many times might I use this in the future?
3. Can I make a jig that will do the job from what I have on hand?
4. Is the money in the bank?
5. Is this a Fad tool? Or how well is it made?


----------



## MEBCWD (Jan 14, 2012)

Hi Craig,

If I am going to be making more than one of an odd item for a project i make a template.

If the material I am using is real expensive, even if I only need one I make a template.

If I will be doing the same procedure multiple times on a project I make a jig. If I think I will use the procedure on other projects I would make a better jig, adjustable for size and any other variations.

If I make a template, even a simple thing like a hole template I keep it, it may come in handy.

Always mark the template with special information for it's use so you don't have to figure out what bushing and bit to use or what size hole it will cut with a pattern bit. Remember you can reduce the size of a cut you make from a template with the use of bushings and different size bits so you are not limited to what is marked on the template.

I buy hand tools if I need one for a special task and it is not outrageous. 
I buy power tools when they are on sale or clearance, or if I find a good used tool somewhere. I watch prices on tools that I need for replacements if one goes out on several sites and always always always check at the local stores when I'm there to see if anything is on clearance. If you find something that is really marked down to get rid of the final remaining stock left and there is more than one don't be afraid to get the manager involved and ask if you take the rest of the remaining stock if he will give you an even better deal. If they really want to get rid of them he will jump at the chanch to get rid of them at an extra discount to you. Sell the rest to pay for the one you want to keep and you might be able to buy some other tool you want.

If I don't know if I would use it very much ( like you question the biscuit jointer) don't buy it, look for other methods to build the project. If you know you will use it a lot then watch for it on sale.

Hope this helps,
Mike


----------



## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

G’day 

Welcome to the router forum.

Thank you for joining us, Craig.

All good advice posted above.

I have a biscuit joiner but no longer use it after I found out about pocket hole joinery....
This is all part of the learning curve, Craig.

As to buying power tools, go more for what you need rather than what you want - unless you have limitless wallet........


----------



## wbh1963 (Oct 11, 2011)

tkleff said:


> Hi All,
> 
> Glad to have what seems to be a well-rounded and friendly forum to ask dumb questions.


Welcome to The Router Forums. It's good to have you join us. I look forward to reading your posts, questions and answers alike. In particular I like how much energy and though you put into this particular post. This forum is top notch for tons of information and being a friendly atmosphere to exchange it in.



tkleff said:


> THE QUESTION(S):
> 
> 1) When do you build jigs? A friend says, when you've rigged something twice, that's the time to build the jig, agree or disagree?


During the last six months of actually setting up the workshop I have wanted for a long time I have made several jigs. Just about every time, it was a situation where I needed to make one or buy one to finish whatever the project of the moment happened to be. My attitudes towards that are changing so much that I have been picking up 'material' for use in the construction of several jigs.

I ordered the 50 buck assortment of fancy UHMW plastic from this link.
I picked up a box of 3.25 in wide Hickory Flooring at close to closeout prices from Home Depot. There might be a cheaper place to get hickory in 3/4 thicknesses, but it doesn't seem to be the average hardwoods dealer.

One thing that I do differently from most is create 'cheater sticks' that I hold onto for just about any measurement I will need to make more than two or three times. This is the most effective way I have found to cope with my poor vision. I Take as much time as needed to get the 'template' cut right, and use it to set the tools.



tkleff said:


> 2) When do you buy tools?
> 
> It's unrealistic that I'm going to buy every tool at every turn. That said, I'm not afraid of investing in tools. In fact, I try to be frugal about it -- I've been looking for additional clamps on eBay and Craigslist, and some of the tools I've gotten for 50% by purchasing second hand on craigslist).


I love collecting them far more than my budget allows. That being said, when I'm just plain tired of doing without it, or when a Craig's list opportunity pops up and sets the hook in me for an item that's been on my 'get me when you can list'.

As a kid in school I only took one semester of wood shop as compared to 6 in metals, 2 in plastics and 2 in electronics. As such, I know enough about machines in general to know that I know damn little about the finer points of woodworking power tools.

I have compensated by going cheap in both tool specs and source. That strategy is working, though I would have been braver about starting out on Craig's list if I had it to do over again. That being said, I am soon to upgrade out of my first table saw, perhaps even this week if a CL deal goes through. I learned what I needed to know about buying table saws for the $200 tuition I paid on the first one. Who knows if I will sell it, or go 'machinist' on it and turn it into a ripping mill.
[/quote]




tkleff said:


> Within this, would you buy a biscuit jointer, the router bits, or configure the universal rip fence in another way?


I have had some curiosity about biscuit jointing, but not nearly enough to dive in. It's not that I am opposed to it in anyway, and I do believe that it has it's applications. It's just a priorities vs. resources thing. I do want to try some of the advanced joinery router bits available, but may not get around to shelling out the 50-200 bucks it will take before a project demands it (or can help fund it. I have a habit of building the cost of a new tool into a job quote!)

Right now my highest priority for 'major power tool' purchase is a 'thickness planer'. It turns out that just about any board that hasn't been rounded, has 6 sides that need to be contended with. Ends and Edges are easy, faces not so much.

Most shops get a jointer before a thickness planer because edges need adjusting more than thickness. In my case the opposite is true. I use a lot of cedar fence boards because they are cheap (Because they haven't been surfaced). It is also possible to do edge planing on a router, and to a lesser degree on a TS with a blade suited to edge surfacing.

The planer will save me money on wood, which is a good thing for a cedar freak like me. Getting the fancy plastic and hickory transformed into custom fence systems and jigs for the major power tools I have already and building a better router table will have a bigger impact on my shop's functionality than 'one more tool' ever could.

Thanks again for joining up and taking the time to share where you are at in the crafting universe. Questions provoke thought, especially those as well asked as yours. Just thinking about how to answer them has helped me in my quest to build the super shop.


----------



## Cochese (Jan 12, 2010)

Biscuits are fine and good, and have their place most times. However do a survey and you'll find the most regrettable purchases have been these tools.

Why? A router and a slot-cutting bit serves basically the same purpose on a lot of joints. Or you can cut any width slot and use a hardwood spline.

Or you can use dowels. Never had the itch to try them.

A pocket hole jig is, I think, a much better investment. A lot of people don't like mechanical fasteners, but can make life a lot easier. You can get the most basic kit for about $20, or you can go whole hog for $140 - still less than some biscuit joiners. 

If you feel the need to buy a biscuit joiner, buy one with metal fences.


----------



## MikeMa (Jul 27, 2006)

Reviewing your list of tools, you have enough to get started as you have show you already have. The best advice I can give you now is you will know you need a certain too, be it a machine or hand tool, when you are not able to accomplish a task, or a group of tasks. For example, if a project requires cutting a lot of curves, you have a pretty good indication that you need a band saw. 

Other needs will come as you develop your skill and knowledge. For example, I found a hardwood supplier that sold rough sawn hardwood at a substantially lower price then the surfaced stuff at box stores. I knew it was time to buy a planer.

Then there are the wants. None of the projects I had worked on required any sort of turning, and anything I had planned didn't as well. I knew I wanted to try turning though. I practiced on an old beat-up one that was given to me, and after turning a few small projects, I bought a new lathe. Most definitely didn't need, but I have a lot of fun turning stuff. The flip side of wants is wanting a tool at the box store that looks fancy, and can accomplish anything you ever throw at it. You get it home, and it ends up collecting dust rather than making it. (If it is a dust collector, then this is actually a good thing!)  

How do you prevent yourself from buy a tool you think you want then never use? The answer is do your homework, and ask yourself what you are going to use it for. For years I wanted to buy a biscuit jointer. Did some homework, watched Norm use his, and I knew I had to have one. I was about to pull the trigger on one when I asked about them in a chat room on another woodworking site. I was asked why I needed it. I couldn't come up with an outright answer, as I had all the machines I needed to do M&T joints, and pocket screws for things like face frames. I ended up crossing the biscuit jointer off my list, and bought a second router instead.


----------



## routered (Jul 9, 2009)

Hi Craig;
You seem to have a pretty good start on your tools already. also the books you talked about are good advice to the beginner to catch up with. As you have read rom others already, there are several ways to do joining of wood and I would have to agree with the fact that a good pocket jig system is more versatile then the biscuit jointer. You don't have a drill press either and as you start getting into furniture building you will find that a very useful tool for many things including some thicknessing on a small scale. I have a Riobi bench top model that has served me well over the years. You also are going to need a tool that will cut curves whether it be a jig saw or a band saw. I started with the hand tools and as money came available got the stationary ones. As far as planing is concerned I have yet to pick upp a piece of wood off the store shelf and found it true enough to use. I use my joiner to get the wood in shape and my table top planer to get the surfaces to dimension and dressed to semi final finish.
It all takes time ,money and as you say"study" to get to where the product is the way we want it in the end.
Welcome to the wonderful world of woodworking and if I have one piece of advise it is this" we can not attain perfection but that should not stop us from working at getting there with all we do". The closer we get the better the project turns out!


----------



## tkleff (Feb 5, 2012)

07.24.2012 - UPDATE

*A. BUILDS CONTINUE*
So, I continue to build. I would say I'm about 9 months into woodworking as a "serious" hobby/vocation/business. Moreover, I still have a tool list of what I'd like to buy -- but my tool purchases have slowed down. 

* * * 

*B. LIFE CIRCUMSTANCE - CHALLENGING BUILD TIME - BUT MY KID IS DOING GREAT*
[Incidentally, it is a challenging time to build given my "life circumstances." 

I'm a first time father with a 7 month old. In fact, he was born 10 weeks premature -- and he entered the world at 800 grams (1.7 pounds). To give y'all a sense of it: My wedding ring fit around his bicep. He was in the hospital for 10.5 weeks. 

The hospital -- in LA -- was about 20 miles from where we live. I went to see him every day; but, due to traffic, feed and sleep schedules, I would work at my day job until 5p, then come home from 5p-730p -- then be at the hospital 8p-1230a. (The commute at 5p is 1.5 hours; by 730p, it's about 0.5 to 0.75 hours). 

So, I was home for 2-2.5 hours a day. If I just sat around and moped (or inserted myself into the world's worst traffic) -- it made things worse rather than better. 

So, I bought plans for a dog house and started building. Since the build of the doghouse consumed mental and physical energy, I became more relaxed and centered. It was a huge coping mechanism. (I highly recommend it). So, instead of torturing myself with my kid being at the hospital with things out of my control -- I could lose myself for an hour or two a day, and then go to the hospital. Ahhh, much better . 

Now, BTW, it's a *very* happy ending: He's about 10x larger now, about 14 pounds. While premature babies have many risk factors, he continues to excel and seems to have no residual issues from his prematurity. He's quickly catching up to his peers and nearly tests developmentally/physically like other 9 month olds (for premies you keep a chronological age [from date of birth] and an adjusted age [from their due date]). 

And, I am the first one to say to anyone who will listen: We're the lucky ones. We had an aggressive doctor, who made a hard call and got him out (due to health issues my son would have died in utero) -- and once out, the team at the neonatal unit did a spectacular job. Moreover, I fully understand the fragility of life and how important it is to savor what you have. 

* * * 

*C. MY SCHEDULE - ABOUT 8-10 HOURS A WEEK*

I do my woodworking for 3-4 hours on Saturday and/or Sunday -- and then another night or two every week. But, I have to squeeze it in among being the family chef, the maid, coach, and dad -- and, to make it even more challenging, all of my tools are out in a locked shed; so, it's usually 20 minutes of set-up and tear down time -- so an hour of woodworking time, yields 20 minutes of actual woodworking/building. 

*D. TOOL LIST - BEST RECENT PURCHASES - WHAT I WOULD DO DIFFERENTLY*

In any event, while I still have a tool wish list -- the purchases have slowed down (and so have the wishes). 

I have the following tools -- mostly purchased in the last 9 months: 

1) a corded and two cordless drills 
2) circular saw; 
3) dewalt table saw; 
4) Ridgid miter saw; 
5) Ridgid router; 
6) black and decker belt sander; 
7) two reciprocating saw (I screwed up the measurements for the opening to the AC on the doghouse, so I had to rip a new hole ). 
8) Ridgid Orbital Sander; 
9) Pocket Screw Jig (Kreg); 
10) A straight cut jig for table saw and/or router; 
11) A 24" framing square
12) 15 or so pipe clamps (story below); 
13) 15 or so Irwin 6-12 inch clamps; 
14) two workbenches (outdoor); 
15) half-a-brain (mostly unused)
16) Dewalt Biscuit Joiner (still unopened in the box, I've had it about a month)
17) Bench Dog router table (I've had it a month, have yet to find the time to put it together)
18) jig saw
19) A Delta drill press (used for $80 bucks; I figured out later I overpaid, it was probably worth $50 used; I've had it a few months, I think I used it once); 
19) a cross cut sled that's probably 88.23 degrees to the blade, instead of 90 degrees. 
20) A stack of about 15-20 woodworking books (which I have read and tried to absorb). 

*E. TOO MANY OR TOO FEW TOOLS? *

The truth is, my tools probably exceed my skill level at this point. Don't get me wrong, I'm not sending any tools back (nor will I tell my wife that I have too many tools). But, I've come to see the wisdom of thinking through the problem. 

*F. MY BEST TOOL PURCHASES -- *

I would say my best tool purchases have been my clamps (super cheap Craigslist steal), the straight edge jig I made for cutting sheet goods, and my cross-cut saw.

*E1. CLAMPS*

For me, I bought 15 used pipe clamps (or so) for like ~$90 dollars; in the same week I bought 10 used Irwin ~15 inch blue and yellow clamps for like $50 bucks or something cheap (but I did have to drive 80 miles round trip -- but, I still saved like $100 or so). I would say these two purchased, more than any other purchase, improved my ability to work smartly more than any other purchase. 

I'm in the midst of building a standing desk. It's on it's side on a work bench/table I have outside. The pipe clamps keep the table legs and desk together as I cut pieces to their precise dimensions and allow me to pick-up where I left off. Moreover, the pipe clamps are able to hold things to the exact spot I want them when I glue/screw things together. if I had to choose between an $750 table saw and no clamps; or $150 in clamps and a $600 table saw, I'd choose the latter every time. 

E2. TABLE SAW

I continue to use my Dewalt Table Saw all the time. When I first did my research about what table saw to get some insisted that I had to spend $1,000 or even $2,000 to get something "decent." Well, for my money -- and my skill level -- I couldn't disagree more. I spent $500 or $600 on my table saw -- and it works great. It cuts square (even though the operator may screw it up every now and again) and the fence works fantastic. Sure, I'd like a longer fence -- but most of us new kids must start somewhere. And, now with a working straight edge jig -- and clamps so that I can clamp down my carpenter's square -- I can cut reasoanbly straight and 90 deg true cuts on sheet goods using the jig and a regular circular saw. 

Indeed, if I had it to do over again, I would have bought a used Dewalt or Delta table saw with about a $300 or $400 budget. 

E3. CROSS-CUT JIG

I finally built a cross-cut jig. I normally just used my miter saw -- but, finally, building the standing desk created two issues that it seemd only a cross-cut sled could adequately address: 1) I needed to cut some small pieces, so it was easier/safer to clamp the small pieces for the drawers to the cross-cut sled; and 2) I had to cut a 12 inch wide (or so) shelf -- and my miter saw couldn't make the cut. 

Turns out, I probably should have build the cross-cut sled much sooner. Indeed, it would seem the cross-cut sled could have replaced the miter sled entirely. (Of course, I have then used the $$$ I spent on the miter saw to buy other equipment to further the hobby/business). 

*E4. Pocket Hole Jig (Kreg)*

I find this to be a very useful jig. I've used it a bunch already (particularly on the standing desk). It definitely makes it easier to get things square and easier to manage the building process. 

*F. MY ADDITIONAL WISH LIST*

1) Planer (OK, maybe even a planer/joiner); 
2) Nail gun with compressor (even the pancake one is fine, with the three gun kit, that'd be fine for $220 or so); 
3) Dado blade; 
4) Band Saw (I guess? - Don't know exactly what I'd do with it); and 
5) Fence extender for the table saw. 

So, I suppose my fascination with tools has slowed down. I figure it'll take me another month or so to finish the standing desk. Then, I expect to build my wife a bed, then finally get to my kids bookcase that I designed. Then some shelves my wife wanted, then maybe a 16 nook storage container for the entrance to the house. Who knows from there . 

cek.


----------



## Big Steve (Feb 12, 2012)

All great posts. I have one contrarian thought though. There are many comments on price and reducing it.

Always use due diligence to pay no more than necessary. BUT DO NOT BUY CHEAP TOOLS where paying a bit more in a key tool would increase your safety, accuracy or enjoyment.


----------



## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Whew! I though I was being and old grinch in not buying into the biscuit joiner stampede...
You guys have _more_ than convinced me to put my doubloons elsewhere.


----------



## Marco (Feb 21, 2009)

This thread is a good example of the great advice and input from the years of expeirience by friendly Forum members. And it's why I continue to visit, learn amd ask questions (no matter how dumb) on this site. Thanks to all who ask and answer.


----------



## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Looks like you have all the right tools that someone would need to start out, plus a few.

That table saw is a good table saw. Keep it adjusted and it will do a good job for you. 

I really use my pocket hole jigs a lot!!! 

Biscuit Jointer? Yes I have one. I use it. (In fact, for about 90 biscuits today) When I didn't have one, I just used other joining techniques. At work, on trim, any structure worth over 1 million in value got biscuit joints in trim. Under 1, straight glue joint. It's fast, but other joining techniques could be also, if you have it set up. And, you know you can also cut biscuit joints with a router right?

It might be worth it to you to go back through your TS crosscut sled and square it's fence up. Very valuable tool. Use mine lots.

Squaring up by using a piece of plywood- yes a jig. I have one made up that I use regularly with toggle clamps. It's called a TS Jointing Jig. Add two fences with joint and stay- A taper jig. 

You said planer... you can plane with a router and a ski jig. 

A dado blade- look at your arbor length. I think you'll find that it's not long enough for a stacked type dado. It will take an adjustable dado. In the meanwhile you could cut dado's with you router and a dado jig.

Pancake compresser with 3 guns. Porter cable w/ 18 gauge, 16 gauge finish guns and a stapler? Quality set with a good price. I have that set... and added a pin-nailer.

Fence extension??? As in longer? Add and an auxiliary fence to the existing. On width of cut? Add on extension wing or a table that extends your working "area"... I have photo's here
Router Forums - View Single Post - Jobsite router table "plus..."

Take your time. Figure out what things you want to make or are asked to make. For your project's tools, what do you need. Could you do it with what you have using a jig. If not, as someone else said, inexpensive not "cheap." 

My eldest son is now 32 yo. Was born at 7 months. I do understand.

The group here is always a good resource for tips and ideas.


----------



## tkleff (Feb 5, 2012)

*Frugal not cheap*



Big Steve said:


> All great posts. I have one contrarian thought though. There are many comments on price and reducing it.
> 
> Always use due diligence to pay no more than necessary. BUT DO NOT BUY CHEAP TOOLS where paying a bit more in a key tool would increase your safety, accuracy or enjoyment.



Steve, 

Thanks for the note. I appreciate it. I think we actually agree: I believe in being frugal rather than cheap. Interestingly, I've learned that tools -- like Toyotas and Volvo's -- really hold their value. In fact, I search the used market for Dewalt table saws, and the used discount was about 20-25% off the new price; with that little of discount (~$100 off of retail as I recall) I decided I would simply pay the retail, retain the warranty, and bet that I'd use the tool for decades. I think I won that bet . 

WHY I WROTE THIS POST - THE BEGINNING WOODWORKER NEEDS TO MAKE HARD CHOICES

I wrote this post originally -- and now followed up with my own reply several months later -- as an attempt to help those who will wander into this forum later (much like others helped me last year). 

I vividly remember last year, before I jumped in and bought my table saw -- I wanted to get a handle on how much it would really cost me to "set up shop." If someone asked me that today, I can give a more educated and realistic answer, based upon the few months I've been doing things. (And, let's be clear -- I'm a new kid on the block. I know virtually nothing compared to others. But, I have a significant advantage in the new woodworker discussion: I was very recently the one with virtually no experience. Reticent to jump in the deep end, and afraid of the potential huge costs). 

So, what have I learned over the last year? You really can do more with less -- but, it's quite hard without the right tools. I also learned -- at least for me -- I do much better learning project by project -- rather than trying to gather every tool and every jig I may need before I start taking on projects. [I also continue to learn that one REALLY SHOULD measure twice and cut once -- despite consistent misapplication of that principle]. 

Moreover, if someone told me, I really want to be a woodworker, but I can't afford even $300 for a table saw, so I just can't do it. I would encourage them to think creatively (and recall a2 + b2 = c2 (3^2 + 4^2 = 5^2) -- so, get yourself an accurate and long straight edge that you can use -- and a good carpenter's square and roll up your sleeves. And, I'd encourage them to be generous with their allowable tolerances . 

Further, if someone said, I'd like to set up a woodworking shop to do some stuff, but, I only have (pick a low number) -- I'll say $800. I'd tell them -- you _can_ do it. You can totally do it. (I'm sure someone will come along at some point and say that's their budget -- at which point I'll have to get out the excel spreadsheet and see what tools he/she could get for that. But, I would expect t-square, measuring tape, drill, drill bits, circular saw, router, router bits, would be in the $400 or so range, particularly if one bought smartly from Craigslist. Then, one would have $300 or so for a table saw and $100 in miscellaneous materials (for jigs of course, the cross-cut sled being one of the first to build, particularly since you could skip -- particularly for the short term -- the need to buy a miter saw). 

I would say that I succumbed too much to the "you-can-t-be-a-woodworker-unless" you have x-tool. You can. You can do more with less -- and do it safely and have a blast doing it. :laugh:

c.

Even more -- I'd encourage them to try to stretch that number being frugal and buying used. And, seeing if there was a project they could build someone with what tools they had for $800 and using that income to buy a few more tools.


----------



## Knothead47 (Feb 10, 2010)

Pardon, but my father always said the only dumb question was the one not asked. Welcome to the forum. There a lot of great people here and most willing to share their experiences and expertise.


----------



## tkleff (Feb 5, 2012)

*I'll use it, I promise!*



DaninVan said:


> Whew! I though I was being and old grinch in not buying into the biscuit joiner stampede...
> You guys have _more_ than convinced me to put my doubloons elsewhere.



DaninVan -- 

I'm going to use it, I swear! I'm building a stand up desk right now. And, the last part of the plans call for biscuit joining wood together to form the cover. It's only unopened because I haven't gotten to that part of the build. 

(The other reason I bought it is a fence I built called for biscuit joints -- but, I didn't have a biscuit jointer -- and my work around didn't work so well). 

I'll let you know when I get it out of the box and how it goes! 

c


----------



## tkleff (Feb 5, 2012)

Hey MAFoElffen --



> Biscuit Jointer? Yes I have one. I use it. (In fact, for about 90 biscuits today) When I didn't have one, I just used other joining techniques. At work, on trim, any structure worth over 1 million in value got biscuit joints in trim. Under 1, straight glue joint. It's fast, but other joining techniques could be also, if you have it set up. And, you know you can also cut biscuit joints with a router right?


Glad to hear you're getting use out of it. I've heard that one can do biscuits with a router table. Just got to get that router table set up (that, too, will come at the end of this desk project, so it's imminent). 



> It might be worth it to you to go back through your TS crosscut sled and square it's fence up. Very valuable tool. Use mine lots.


Actually, it's as square as I can make it (and, I think it is 90% or very very close to it). I think I'm making another one without a back brace anyhow -- and that should be 90.0 deg -- at least according to my design . 



> Squaring up by using a piece of plywood- yes a jig. I have one made up that I use regularly with toggle clamps. It's called a TS Jointing Jig.


Any photo or video of this? I think I've read about it -- but I'm not getting it from the description (my fault, not yours). 



> Add two fences with joint and stay- A taper jig.


I do have a taper jig. I love that thing. 



> You said planer... you can plane with a router and a ski jig.


OK -- well, I'll have to look into that. Any plans around that show me how to build the jig? 



> A dado blade- look at your arbor length. I think you'll find that it's not long enough for a stacked type dado. It will take an adjustable dado. In the meanwhile you could cut dado's with you router and a dado jig.


yep. Recently, I did it one kerf width at a time. While a bit slow, it was oddly fulfilling . When I get closer to that purchase, I'll take a look. (Which reminds me, another great reason to start slow -- in my view -- with table saws. It's hard to know what YOU really want the table saw to do, unless you've worked with one. It sounds like this one may limit may ability to cut wider dados all at once. Hmm, didn't even know that til now . . . . 



> Pancake compresser with 3 guns. Porter cable w/ 18 gauge, 16 gauge finish guns and a stapler? Quality set with a good price. I have that set... and added a pin-nailer.


Yep, that's what I hear. Sometimes I think I inherited my dog's hearing -- becuase I can apparently hear things that my wife doesn't hear (Yes dear!). 



> Fence extension??? As in longer? Add and an auxiliary fence to the existing. On width of cut? Add on extension wing or a table that extends your working "area"... I have photo's here
> Router Forums - View Single Post - Jobsite router table "plus..."


This sounds great. I'll check it out. 



> Take your time. Figure out what things you want to make or are asked to make. For your project's tools, what do you need. Could you do it with what you have using a jig. If not, as someone else said, inexpensive not "cheap."


Frugal . 



> My eldest son is now 32 yo. Was born at 7 months. I do understand.


Yep. We hear about it from others all the time. It's almost like a secret brotherhood/sisterhood. I still feel like the lucky one. 



> The group here is always a good resource for tips and ideas.


Yep, they've been great, just like you . 

c.


----------



## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

tkleff said:


> Hey MAFoElffen --
> Any photo or video of this? I think I've read about it -- but I'm not getting it from the description (my fault, not yours).


I got the idea for mine from this video:
"the wee mac edger-jointer in an Aberdeen brogue.wmv"



tkleff said:


> OK -- well, I'll have to look into that. Any plans around that show me how to build the jig?


Search in the jigs area for "router ski". I built on, but I keep going back to a jig I built. Dado jig, router using an 1 3/4" straight bit (x, y across work), rails on each side of work, dado jig floats on the rails (z, length of work).... Work is secured between the rails.

If use use ski's I still use my rails and secure the work between.


tkleff said:


> yep. Recently, I did it one kerf width at a time. While a bit slow, it was oddly fulfilling . When I get closer to that purchase, I'll take a look. (Which reminds me, another great reason to start slow -- in my view -- with table saws. It's hard to know what YOU really want the table saw to do, unless you've worked with one. It sounds like this one may limit may ability to cut wider dados all at once. Hmm, didn't even know that til now . . . .


 The adjustable dado I mentioned is also called a wobble dado. Can fit on a short arbor. Will adjust a dado cut to 15/16". Less expensive than a stacked dado set. Faster to set the width of the dado than a stacked set. 

Drawbacks: The wobble action of a wobble dado gets some tearout, so not real quality/finished kind of cut. I own both. If I didn't, I would say it was a good cut... but then my stacked set would then be fantastic/great. Another drawback to that wobble action, is that it creates a somewhat tapered cut, with the bottom of the dado slightly wider than the top. Most wouldn't notice. You have to play with it and see where your settings need to be to get a good tight joint.

I agree, the more you use a tool, no matter what tool that may be, the more you get ideas of what you can do with it (even as non-traditional uses). Example, I can cut compound miters on a table saw, but thank goodness for my miter saw. With practice, same cut could be done with a circular saw, jig saw, a router, hand saw. Maybe not as well or as fast... The point is that you "can" and in a pinch, if you have to...

If you need pictures on anything above, just ask.


----------



## Fishinbo (Jun 11, 2012)

Good finds at charmed prices are usually at flea markets. It’s always a challenge for me to say no to great finds.


----------



## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Oh boy, Craig, I hope you realise the can or worms you've opened-up here...... :yes4:

On the biscuit jointer question I'd have gone and bought a router biscuit joint cutter set for about $25. I have two BJs, but the cutter serves me well when I'm working on site and don't want to carry the extra weight. Although you sometines need to make compromises in usingh it instead of the full-blown BJ..... BTW BJs are only any use for internal joinery because the beech biscuits decay in external situations



tkleff said:


> My goal is to enjoy this as a hobby and actually build useful things. (With a more ultimate goal that when my wife and I move to San Diego (from LA), I want to buy a fixer and use some of these skills for that work).
> 
> THE QUESTION(S):
> 
> ...


1. I build jigs when they will save me time (which is really an experience/judgement thing, sorry), save me effort (by making the task easier), improve my accuracy or when I'm making multiples. Not quite as simple as your friend says it. remember a "jig" can be something as simple as a block screwed to the back fence of a mitre saw so you can make a dozen identical cuts without the need to measure each and every time (this a time saver AND an accuracy addition) 

2. I buy tools either when I can't do the job without that tool - and that means that there is absolutely NO work-around - (this is and always a rare one for me), or when it will save me time (and I work as a sort of trim carpenter, so time _is_ money) or when the tool will make a task simpler and more accurate. having said that my missus thinks I have a "router fetish"......

Looking at your original tool kit if you are interested in taking on a "fixer-upper" I'd say that you should have considered an orbital jigsaw, a portable power planer, a palm sander (1/4 sheet), maybe a trim router (like a Colt, but not strictly necessary) and a couple of nailers (I use Senco clipped head gas and DW trim nailers, a small compressor and air tools is initially way cheaper). That's what I'd be taking on site for my "day job" - note the lack of a BJ and other "non-essential" items. Having to lug your tool kit on your back makes you think twice about anything you have to carry! The rest of what you need mainly will be unpowered hand tools (chisels, hammers, screwdrivers, hand saws, prybars, combination square, tapes, spirit levels, challk line, string line, etc). The one thing I missed out was a planer/thicknesser if you need to prep your own timber. I don't know what the situation in the USA is, but most of the time we here can order in pre-plabed timber - working to standard sizes and profiles is always simpler, faster and cheaper, at least in the beginning

One thing I would say is to avoid the unnecessary builds/buys - you have a mitre saw so use that for cross cutting and mitres but do the rips on the table saw (this is the "classic" trade apprenticed joiner approach). I don't feel the need to build a crosscut seld in this situation - it is plain and simple duplication to me. For breaking down sheet material you could build yourself 3 identical trestles and make a sawing guide or two like these (although you don't need a Festool saw to go with them)

I know the saying is "he who dies with the most tools wins", but going to a site job for at least half of my life means that you look askance at axioms such as that. I prefer the motto "less is more"

Regards

Phil


----------

