# Can I Cut A Small Bow Tie?\



## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

Several years ago before I started my woodworking career. It was when my interest was still in photography. I had purchased a nice frame for a photo on line to see how it was made. It was a pretty simple frame but kinda of spendy, $60 as I recall.

The way that the mitered corners were secured was rather interesting. As I recall, there was a piece like a small bow tie inlay that occupied the area across the joint ion the back of the frame at each corner. The inlays, the little parts that fit into the recesswa were maybe 3/4" in length and maybe 3/8" wide at the each end of the inlay, the wide ends. I'm wondering if anybody has an idea as to whether or not a person could cut an inlay that small with the router inlay kits that iare available to most of us, like the one that I have on order.

I'm not really into making picture frames anymore, but am just wondering if anybody has had any experience in what I'm referring to. It was or is a really good way to secure a mitered corner of a picture frame.

Jerry


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## Al B Thayer (Jun 2, 2014)

The fastener your referring to is cut with a machine made for frame shops. The two pieces are held in a quick vise and the slot with the bumps on the end is cut. Then without removing it the shop owner pounds the plastic piece in. Ity has a pulling advantage and pulls the miter together.

Al


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

Al B Thayer said:


> The fastener your referring to is cut with a machine made for frame shops. The two pieces are held in a quick vise and the slot with the bumps on the end is cut. Then without removing it the shop owner pounds the plastic piece in. Ity has a pulling advantage and pulls the miter together.
> 
> Al


Al, I'm not sure that what you have described is what I am referring to. When I ordered the frame, it came the four parts and I assembled it. Recesses for the piece that I'm asking about came separately. I inserted them, they fit pretty snug and glue was not required, but it should have been used. I gave the frame along with a photoe of her daughter as a gift and the frame has held up now without the glue for sevral years.

Jerry


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## gmercer_48083 (Jul 18, 2012)

Jerry, take a look at this. It may be what your referring to.


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

gmercer_48083 said:


> Jerry, take a look at this. It may be what your referring to.


No, thas's not it or I'm seeing the photo well, that's example of the type I photo that I can't see. The white background almost completely blinds me. Hard for anybody to understand. Try to imagine the flat sides of the back of a picture frame coming together at the mitered cut. The bow tie lays across the the mitered cut, half on one side of the cut and the the other half on the other side of the cut. The little bow tie part drops into it's recess that is cut across the mitered cut.


Jerry


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## flockshot (Mar 15, 2012)

If you lake Do It Yourself machines you could use this and just cut deeper.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PQlDAg971c


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## rayschimpf (Sep 30, 2009)

Jerry
The wood turners use them all the time to repair a crack in a bowl or whatever there turning. I’m sure there is wood turning clubs near you, contact them. 
Here in Hawaii at our next meeting our program is going to be about inserting the bow ties. They can be purchased by the bag already cut out ready to use. Than you make the cut out with a small router to remove most of the material and set the depth, you use a chisel to finish the sharp points. I’ve seen it done in both curved surfaces and flat. For picture frames mostly flat it is fairly easy to do and goes quick after you have your jig made and set up.
Ray


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

These days Jerry "V" nails are what most framers use and various tools are available to insert these from simple to professional. I have a friend, a professional framer who has a large pedal operated machine for the purpose. This shot is self explanatory.


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

harrysin said:


> These days Jerry "V" nails are what most framers use and various tools are available to insert these from simple to professional. I have a friend, a professional framer who has a large pedal operated machine for the purpose.


Harry, I bought a similar tool several years ago, it operated by hand, cost a couple hundred dollars as I recall, I never liked it, but it was also about the time that I gave up photography for woodworking. It is just drawing dust over in the corner with the a couple of non-sliding compound saws. The last frames that I made were joined at the miter joints with biscuits, that was when I did not know that they did not add strength to the joint, but they seem to work pretty well at the time . 

Thanks for the tip though, glad that you are still trying to be of help. 

Maybe the BBT will come today or tomorroe with the new router, hope so, and thanks again for the heads up on not tryong to cut slits with it...

Jerry


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Biscuits in a picture frame certainly adds strength to the mitre.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

I meant to say but forgot Jerry, even though I'm not a "genius", just an amateur with MANY years experience, I do my best to help anyone who asks and occasionally give advice even when it isn't actually asked for!


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

harrysin said:


> I meant to say but forgot Jerry, even though I'm not a "genius", just an amateur with MANY years experience, I do my best to help anyone who asks and occasionally give advice even when it isn't actually asked for!


Harry,
That doesn't make you bad, in fact just the opposite in my view. What you may not know is that, in my case anyway, I can't always follow what you are trying to explain.

One of the things that you have told me is how you use a chisel to cut the mortises for hinges for a small box. I can't see well enough to do what you describe. I am starting to wonder If the mortises can be cut with the hand held router. I have bee cutting them on the router table. I know that the edge of a 3/8" wide board is not enough to support the router, but maybe some type of jig and a template might be used. Haven't spent much time on that idea, just wondering.

But the point here Harry is that if I yad your experience I could not keep from trying to to give advise to people than could use it. If the subject were that of shooting, I would be doing the same thing as that is where my area of expertise lies as you well know by now as I keep harping on it. I do certainly understand and do admire yoru experience and your willingness to help others.

Jerry


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Jerry Bowen said:


> Harry,
> That doesn't make you bad, in fact just the opposite in my view. What you may not know is that, in my case anyway, I can't always follow what you are trying to explain.
> 
> One of the things that you have told me is how you use a chisel to cut the mortises for hinges for a small box. I can't see well enough to do what you describe. I am starting to wonder If the mortises can be cut with the hand held router. I have bee cutting them on the router table. I know that the edge of a 3/8" wide board is not enough to support the router, but maybe some type of jig and a template might be used. Haven't spent much time on that idea, just wondering.
> ...


Jerry, never in a million years did I ever tell you that I cut hinge rebates with a chisel! the only chisel that I use is a CORNER chisel to square the round corners left by the bit. I've included a shot of a corner chisel The first very old photo shows how I use to rout the rebates using an adjustable jig that I made ions ago, the other shots show how I route them these days.
Because I always email photographs with my answers I'm very puzzled as to why you cannot understand my explanations and would be grateful if other members who have the same trouble with my forum posts would please advise me so that I can try a different strategy.
Before I forget again, a couple of days ago I emailed you a shooting game, many of my friends have got back to me with their results, what scores did you achieve Jerry.


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

harrysin said:


> Jerry, never in a million years did I ever tell you that I cut hinge rebates with a chisel! the only chisel that I use is a CORNER chisel to square the round corners left by the bit. I've included a shot of a corner chisel The first very old photo shows how I use to rout the rebates using an adjustable jig that I made ions ago, the other shots show how I route them these days.
> Because I always email photographs with my answers I'm very puzzled as to why you cannot understand my explanations and would be grateful if other members who have the same trouble with my forum posts would please advise me so that I can try a different strategy.
> Before I forget again, a couple of days ago I emailed you a shooting game, many of my friends have got back to me with their results, what scores did you achieve Jerry.



Harry,
It was an hohest misunderstanding on my part in regard to what I thought that said about cutting he rebates for the hinges. You can't understand that I can's see your photo due to my vision. I know that it must be difficult for you to understand.

As far as the shooting message or video, I must have missed it, can you send it again?

I bought a corner chisel but again, my vision will not allow me to use it.

Jerry


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

To be completely honest Jerry I'm at this moment wondering how you actually manage to do any woodwork and I'm sure that other members reading your post will be wondering the same thing. I think that you deserve praise for even trying.
Here is the link to the shooting game which can become adictive and I think that other members will want to give it a try.


http://deti.mil.by/templates/swf/Pistol/indexswf

I just tried to open the link and it wouldn't so I emailed it to myself and it was fine so I don't know what the problem is but I'll email to you Jerry.


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## carlp. (Nov 3, 2012)

*bow tie keys*

Hi Jerry those are referred to as butter fly keys . regards carl


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## carlp. (Nov 3, 2012)

*bow tie / butterfly key*

Hi Jerry the best way to cut the small ones is with a dremel router if you have one it is very quick and easy.


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## CharleyL (Feb 28, 2009)

Perhaps you are looking for this The Hoffmann Dovetail Joining System

A bit pricey for me, but it does a great job.

Charley


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## Gaffboat (Mar 11, 2012)

harrysin said:


> The first very old photo shows how I use to rout the rebates using an adjustable jig that I made ions ago, the other shots show how I route them these days.


Harry, I know you have been preaching about router skies forever but I never thought I had a real need for them. Your photo showing how skies enable you to rout the edge of the small box without trying to balance the router on the narrow edge is the best router ski story-telling photo I've seen yet. For me, it was an "aha" moment that made me realize that I DO need to make some skies. :yes4:

Keep the photos and explanations coming they are very helpful.


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

harrysin said:


> To be completely honest Jerry I'm at this moment wondering how you actually manage to do any woodwork and I'm sure that other members reading your post will be wondering the same thing. I think that you deserve praise for even trying.
> Here is the link to the shooting game which can become adictive and I think that other members will want to give it a try.
> 
> 
> ...



Harry and other members that wonder about my vision,

It is so hard to explain, I have been to any number of specialist in my life time aobut my vision and nobody yet has been able to understand. Indoors I see just fine except for fine detail. As I trype this my screen is black the letters are white. I see the typing just fine, clear and sharp. But if I were to change the screen to a white screen with black letters, I could not see a thing. I might zoom way in and tip the screen sideways to reduce the glare and see some of it.

Outdoors during day light hours I have no central vision but fairly good peripheral vision. With two pairs of dark glasses, one of which has been dyed as dark as they can be dyed, I can see well enough to drive and feel fairly comfortable. 

It was only after Lasik surgery that my inability to read a book or anything on white paper began. It's mostly a light problem along with acuity at close distances. Light just blinds me. As I said, it's almost impossible to explain. It started when I very young and has just gotten worse over the years. I feel completely safe in the shop, I see everything well enough to be very comfortable as long as the light doesn't get to bright. Could be a lot worse. I'm not complaining. When it comes to understanding photos it's more of a mental block I think as I see the photos pretty well I think, but for some reason I can't always tell what is being communicated via a photo. I'll try harder and study closer. 

When I was shooting I often wondered how things would go if I could dial the other competitor's vision down to what mine was. I did well shooting against some of the best competitors in the world, but could not beat their average score over a full day of shooting, but did beat the majotity of the competitors at any match even with my vision impairment and won several individual matches and won small group of the day on a coupld of occasions. As I said before, I can't play golf, baseball, shoot trap, fly an airplane, or understand some of Harry's instructional photos that he is adept at posting.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Jerry Bowen said:


> Harry and other members that wonder about my vision,
> 
> It is so hard to explain, I have been to any number of specialist in my life time aobut my vision and nobody yet has been able to understand. Indoors I see just fine except for fine detail. As I trype this my screen is black the letters are white. I see the typing just fine, clear and sharp. But if I were to change the screen to a white screen with black letters, I could not see a thing. I might zoom way in and tip the screen sideways to reduce the glare and see some of it.
> 
> ...


Jerry, would it help if I were to re-work the photos. that I email to you like this?


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Jerry, after going to some trouble, I really did expect the courtesy of a reply.


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## UlrichJ (Feb 16, 2012)

Amazon sells a butterfly template and an inlay template guide set. Template has several sizes of butterfly/bow ties.


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

harrysin said:


> Jerry, after going to some trouble, I really did expect the courtesy of a reply.


Harry,
By now you should know that I would not ever want to be rude to you. I must hav emissed something and for that I am sorry, what are you referring to my friend, I have not intention of being rude to you, your attempt to be of help to me means a great deal to me, even though I may not have been able use all of you help due to my own short comings. So please forgive my if I have dropped the ball.

Jerry


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## Al B Thayer (Jun 2, 2014)

Jerry Bowen said:


> Al, I'm not sure that what you have described is what I am referring to. When I ordered the frame, it came the four parts and I assembled it. Recesses for the piece that I'm asking about came separately. I inserted them, they fit pretty snug and glue was not required, but it should have been used. I gave the frame along with a photoe of her daughter as a gift and the frame has held up now without the glue for sevral years.
> 
> Jerry


I haven't found it yet but I believe the Miters are cut and then perp to the miter they rout a hole and slot much like a keyhole. When both pieces are put together they pound in a plastic dog bone looking piece that holds the miter together. I have had frames made like this and as soon as I find the picture I'll take a photo of it.

Does this sound like the one your looking for?

Al


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

Al B Thayer said:


> I haven't found it yet but I believe the Miters are cut and then perp to the miter they rout a hole and slot much like a keyhole. When both pieces are put together they pound in a plastic dog bone looking piece that holds the miter together. I have had frames made like this and as soon as I find the picture I'll take a photo of it.
> 
> Does this sound like the one your looking for?
> 
> Al



Al,
It does sound right. I was more concerned about what I could or coundn't do witht the new router. Making picture frames is not very high on list of things I want to do with my new router. I sure do appreciate you trying to be of help to this old guy in Texas.

Jerry


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## Al B Thayer (Jun 2, 2014)

Hard to believe but the last time I saw a picture frame joined as such was about 24 years ago. Maybe more. But I do remember.

I most times find what Im looking for by searching Google images.

Best of luck
Al


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Jerry Bowen said:


> Harry,
> By now you should know that I would not ever want to be rude to you. I must hav emissed something and for that I am sorry, what are you referring to my friend, I have not intention of being rude to you, your attempt to be of help to me means a great deal to me, even though I may not have been able use all of you help due to my own short comings. So please forgive my if I have dropped the ball.
> 
> Jerry


Jerry, please refer to post #21 wherein I reworked the text on a photo and asked if photos that I email to you in the future would be better understood by you.


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

harrysin said:


> Jerry, never in a million years did I ever tell you that I cut hinge rebates with a chisel! the only chisel that I use is a CORNER chisel to square the round corners left by the bit. I've included a shot of a corner chisel The first very old photo shows how I use to rout the rebates using an adjustable jig that I made ions ago, the other shots show how I route them these days.
> Because I always email photographs with my answers I'm very puzzled as to why you cannot understand my explanations and would be grateful if other members who have the same trouble with my forum posts would please advise me so that I can try a different strategy.
> Before I forget again, a couple of days ago I emailed you a shooting game, many of my friends have got back to me with their results, what scores did you achieve Jerry.


Harry,

These photos and text are great. It helps a lot now that I have a my new router and have used it, I had been thinking along these lines, but your photos clear things up, thank you again, sorry it took me so long to get back to you on this.

We are about to leave for the hospital for Vesta to hae the procedure on her back that is supposed to relieve the pain in her back that that persisted for nine years since the the firsr of several back surgeries. Needless to say we very hopeful that the procedure will be successful, her quality of life has not been well during this time.

Jerry


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

I do hope that the procedure on Vista's back is 100% successful Jerry.


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

Hey Jerry, 

I ran across this this morning... perhaps this is what you were thinking of..

Buy CMT ENLOCK1 Joining System Kit at Woodcraft.com


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## Semipro (Mar 22, 2013)

Bill 
Very interesting idea , even if you did not buy the jig the plastic bowties could be usefuli
Amazon got the jig on sale for 92.00


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

John... I'd be very interested in hearing just how well it works by someone who's used it. I watched the video a couple of times and just could not convince myself that it was all they cracked it up to be. However, CMT has a reputation for quality products...so......

For production line work, line picture frames and the like, there I could see a value perhaps..


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## Semipro (Mar 22, 2013)

Bill
I read a couple reviews on amazon biggest complaint was breaking the plastic bow ties when installing them,


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