# Newbie question - Bit height problem



## newbie2wood (Apr 22, 2016)

Hello all - first time router user and poster...

I have 2 routers - One 1/4" shank craftsman (I've had for awhile and built a table top stand for it, but haven't used it until this week), and a new HF 1/2" shank router came with a table (didn't realize it was 1/2 when I bought it).

I had to buy a 1/2"-1/4" resize adapter for my 1/4" shank bits to work in the 1/2? router - and of course after having a problem I just broke down and bought 1/2" shank bits also.

So....My question is:

When I insert a bit (let's use the Roman Ogee as example) in either router, the bit goes all the way in and tightens.

BUT, when I raise the router to get the bit through the hole, the bit doesn't come all the way up through it. I know this because when I cut the Ogee, teh cut is only half way through the wood (the bevel cut).

I figured on my home made table stand I did something wrong, but on my new 1/2" shank router and table it's the same thing.

I find I have to raise the bit about 1/4 - 1/2" to get the whole Ogee pattern to cut on the wood.

Is this normal or do I have a defective router/table etc. or am doing something wrong and should just give up 

Kinda lost with this router thing 

Thanks in advance for any and all advice/assitance


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

Welcome...soon as you can, fill out your profile so we have a first name...

General rule is that the shank of the bit needs to be in the collett by at least 80%...best way is drop the bit all the way in and back it off about 1/8"...

If the bit is not in deep enough into the collet, it could vibrate and spin out...very dangerous...

Couple of questions...when you installed the router, did you remove the base plate...? This could account for not being able to raise the bit high enough.

Let's take care of the basics first.

Just checking but this does not happen with the 1/4" router...? Only the new 1/2" router...? And it's a Harbor Freight...?

Is there a stop on the height adjustment that is preventing the router from raising...? (check the manual...?) Like a plunge router step turret...?

Is the router a plunge or fixed base...?


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## newbie2wood (Apr 22, 2016)

Hi Nick, thanks for the profile advice - done.

To answer your questions...



> Couple of questions...when you installed the router, did you remove the base plate...? This could account for not being able to raise the bit high enough.


Yes, the 1/4" router (Craftsman wouldn't mount without removing the plate.

The Harbor freight 1/2" router came with the router mounted to the table already.



> Just checking but this does not happen with the 1/4" router...? Only the new 1/2" router...? And it's a Harbor Freight...?


Happens on both - not too worried about the 1/4" since I built that and figured the depth of the top is too thick and probably needs to be routed out - which I can't do at the moment LOL



> Is there a stop on the height adjustment that is preventing the router from raising...? (check the manual...?) Like a plunge router step turret...?


No the stop height is the table bottom itself on the HF router - nothing in the crappy instructions that tells how to adjust or if it even needs it



> Is the router a plunge or fixed base...?


I'm not too up on the terminology, I assume you mean does the router move up and down aside from the bit part?

I'm going to say both are fixed - only moves up and down to adjust the height and change the bit - is that what you mean?

Thanks for the help

If it helps, this is the router and table 1/2" I have
http://www.harborfreight.com/router-table-with-router-95380.html


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## newbie2wood (Apr 22, 2016)

Hi Nick, thanks for the profile advice - done.

To answer your questions...



> Couple of questions...when you installed the router, did you remove the base plate...? This could account for not being able to raise the bit high enough.


Yes, the 1/4" router (Craftsman wouldn't mount without removing the plate.

The Harbor freight 1/2" router came with the router mounted to the table already.



> Just checking but this does not happen with the 1/4" router...? Only the new 1/2" router...? And it's a Harbor Freight...?


Happens on both - not too worried about the 1/4" since I built that and figured the depth of the top is too thick and probably needs to be routed out - which I can't do at the moment LOL



> Is there a stop on the height adjustment that is preventing the router from raising...? (check the manual...?) Like a plunge router step turret...?


No the stop height is the table bottom itself on the HF router - nothing in the crappy instructions that tells how to adjust or if it even needs it



> Is the router a plunge or fixed base...?


I'm not too up on the terminology, I assume you mean does the router move up and down aside from the bit part?

I'm going to say both are fixed - only moves up and down to adjust the height and change the bit - is that what you mean?

Thanks for the help


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## newbie2wood (Apr 22, 2016)

If it helps this is the router and table I have
harborfreight dot com/router-table-with-router-95380 dot html


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

Thanks, Jessie...

A plunge router typically has two shiny columns, one on either side of the motor housing with an obvious spring action to the router.. The plunge allows one to operate the router by plunging it to a specified amount of travel. Sort of like setting a stop on a drill press. Plunge routers typically are used when routing freehand, when the piece is too big for the table, sign-making, and a host of other uses out of the table. Reason I ask is to make sure that what is normally a stop adjustment in a plunge base would be one item to check that would limit travel (height adjustment when in the table). If it's not a plunge base, scratch that idea...

Let's get the table out of the way first...

Take the HF router out of the table and see if the bit will drop sufficiently when adjusted with the provided height adjustment. Take the bit out of the collet so it doesn't get hurt in the manhandling... Make sure there is nothing between the router and the table that does not belong there...

If the height adjustment then allows the shaft to lower sufficiently (if a bit were in it), then the table is in the way when the router is installed...maybe the size of the hole vs the size of the router motor...? Have you checked the width of the table top...? Might it be the culprit...? (too thick ?)


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

...and you did check the depth stop knob/rod...? (figure F, 12a and 18a in your manual)


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## newbie2wood (Apr 22, 2016)

Sorry nick (please forgive my ignorance - i'm not very astute at this stuff at all) - not sure exactly what you are asking me to do.

I get remove the router - that miuch is clear


> and see if the bit will drop sufficiently when adjusted with the provided height adjustment.


You mean does the bit go all the way into the collet?

I need a few more posts I think to post pictures, so I'm going to take some pics of my table and router and post them to photobucket.


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## newbie2wood (Apr 22, 2016)

Nickp said:


> ...and you did check the depth stop knob/rod...? (figure F, 12a and 18a in your manual)


Yes, this I've been looking at.

When I raise the router it goes all the way up.

I know this because when I raise it to lock it down I hear the "clump" against the table. LOL


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

...looks like it is a plunge router (see springs in parts diagram)...

The stop rod (18a) is a suspect for now...loosen the knob (12a) and let the rod drop fully away from the base side of the router...lock it again...now try raising the router and see if it travels further...


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

Looks like we crossed posts...

I meant for you to take the router out of the table to make sure the table wasn't getting in the way...

Then operate it in it's "plunge" mode and see if the bit will travel sufficiently. If yes, then there might be something in the table blocking the full travel of the router.


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

By the way...you can post pictures provided they are on the hard drive...you just can't post URL's until 10 posts...next response should do it...


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

...maybe the handles...could they be hitting the bottom of the table...?


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## newbie2wood (Apr 22, 2016)

I have some photos (didn't come out very well I'm afraid) of the router here: 
s1216 dot photobucket dot com/user/completenewbie/library/HF%20Router?sort=3&page=1

The darker pic shows the bit all the way into the collect - when the router is raised it is not high enough to get the whole cut of the bit










The 2nd pic shows the same bit raised slightly to clear the hole in the table so the whole bit cuts the wood.









The last pic shows the bit not clearing the table top









I've removed the stop completely and without raising the bit in the collet when I raise the router it doesn't clear the top completely.

If you look at the 2nd picture (clearest of the 2 below table) you will see on the "slides" of the router there are 2 sleeves/collars at the top (just below the plate)- I think if these were not there the router would raise to the appropriate height

Also there is no way to remove the router from the table as the power is on the table itself - no power switch on the router.


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## newbie2wood (Apr 22, 2016)

Nickp said:


> ...maybe the handles...could they be hitting the bottom of the table...?


There are no handles 

All good suggestions though Nick - and your effort and time is greatly appreciated!


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

Jessie...looking at the 2nd picture it really does seem that the depth stop (18a) might be the problem. Loosen the knob (right behind the date stamp in the 2nd picture) while the table is upright...let the depth stop (the silver rod) fall, or push it, towards the back of the motor (down)...

By the way...that bit is definitely not in the collet sufficiently...besides the possibility of it coming out you could damage your collet.

Really nice shop...WOWSER...


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## dalboy (Jun 12, 2012)

This may be a silly question Jessie but how thick is the table top, looking at your photo's it does seem very thick which could be the problem of not able to raise the bit high enough. I have a home made table with a insert that the router attaches to and is somewhere in the region of 1/4" thick which allows for the bit to protrude quite a bit.


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## PhilBa (Sep 25, 2014)

I think nick's right, the depth stop rod needs to go away. There is really no need for it in a table. You should be able to raise the router enough that the tip of the collet will be above the plate.

And +100 on the point that the bit isn't fully in the collet. Quite dangerous and will increase runnout which can be an issue for dados and such.

edit: as long as I am on this. If you use it enough, I think you will agree that 1/2" shank bits are superior to 1/4", especially for bigger bits (3/4" and up).


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

I also suspect table thickness as a contributor to the problem. On most tables, the router is mounted on a 3/8ths plate. If the top is 1 inch thick, then the router needs another 5/8ths rise to offset the difference between a plate and the existing top. An after market aluminum router plate needs to sit in a half inch rabbit with a hole an inch less the width and height of the plate.

The picture shows how its done using a template, which can usually be ordered from the plate's manufacturer. I think this is a source of the problem.


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## woodknots (Mar 7, 2012)

Jesse

I have to echo what others have said

Drop the bit into the collet properly - it isn't deep enough and you risk personal injury if it flies out. I probably don't have to tell you this but I will anyway - unplug your router/table before you go anywhere near that bit with your hands or anything else. I still have ten digits because I don't go near sharp things while the tool is plugged in.

Remove the depth stop rod completely then plunge the router and see if your bit comes up through the table. I really think the depth stop rod is the problem.

Let us know how you make out.


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## newbie2wood (Apr 22, 2016)

Thanks all - all your advice and assistance does not go unappreciated...

I took the rod out - made no difference - here are new pics (got the wifes camera LOL):

This shows the rod removed, the router fully extended and the bit seated all the way









Here's the view from the bottom:









Here's a view fully raised no rod and the collet only:









From the top - collet fully extended - no rod - no bit









Nick - thanks - the shop is very small but I'm working on it


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## newbie2wood (Apr 22, 2016)

On this particular table, I think there needs to be an area "dug out" to fit the router making the bit higher? As you all suggested.

Unfortunately, don't you need a router to do that LOL - my catch 22

As far as the bit not seated properly, it catches very well in the collet - so well that I have to use a dowel and hammer to remove the bit from the collet.


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## dalboy (Jun 12, 2012)

newbie2wood said:


> On this particular table, I think there needs to be an area "dug out" to fit the router making the bit higher? As you all suggested.
> 
> Unfortunately, don't you need a router to do that LOL - my catch 22
> 
> As far as the bit not seated properly, it catches very well in the collet - so well that I have to use a dowel and hammer to remove the bit from the collet.


It is not a case of digging the material out to thin the table if you did that you would weaken the area around the router joint to the table. If you look at Tom's post #18 it shows a blue insert which the router fits to then you need to rout out a hole to suit the insert.
Some inserts come with instruction on how to do all of that.


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## newbie2wood (Apr 22, 2016)

dalboy said:


> It is not a case of digging the material out to thin the table if you did that you would weaken the area around the router joint to the table. If you look at Tom's post #18 it shows a blue insert which the router fits to then you need to rout out a hole to suit the insert.
> Some inserts come with instruction on how to do all of that.


Isn't that the same as digging out to make the bit higher?


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## dalboy (Jun 12, 2012)

newbie2wood said:


> Isn't that the same as digging out to make the bit higher?


By using the plate it is stronger than the material the table is made from. The strength of the table material relies on the thickness. I will try and photograph my table tomorrow.


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## newbie2wood (Apr 22, 2016)

dalboy said:


> By using the plate it is stronger than the material the table is made from. The strength of the table material relies on the thickness. I will try and photograph my table tomorrow.


Ah - so the plates are made of metal or something other than wood? - Duh - just re-read that post about the plate = aluminum!

Cool - greatly appreciated


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## dalboy (Jun 12, 2012)

newbie2wood said:


> Isn't that the same as digging out to make the bit higher?


By using the plate it is stronger than the material the table is made from. The strength of the table material relies on the thickness. I will try and photograph my table tomorrow.
Just found an old photo of the top while it was under construction

You can see the plate in position the router fits to the plate which is a lot thinner than the table top.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

You could rout out the area the router bolts to, as close as possible to the actual base size and 3/8" of material should be adequate for Mdf or plywood that way, especially if there are cross supports under the table close by. 

One way to set bits properly in the collet is to remove the collet from the router and insert the bit in it until the end of the bit is even with bottom of the collet and then mark the shaft of the bit with a marker. Then you know exactly how far to insert it. You can damage the collet by not inserting the bit far enough into it and never tighten the nut down on an empty collet. 

The collet nut should hit the surface you have it on when you plunge. If it does then the issue is not with the router.


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## newbie2wood (Apr 22, 2016)

Thanks everyone for the great advice and information.

I've come to the decision after reading everyone's responses that the HF table I have is going back to HF.

I don't like to purchase things that need to be modified to work, and it seems this table needs modifications to be able to use it properly and safely!

I'm now considering the Bosch RA1171 Cabinet Style Router Table - it's quite a bit more, but I think it will work out better in the long run.

I should be able to use my old Craftsman 1/4" router, until I can afford to purchase a new 1/2" router.

Thoughts?


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

The Bosch table is usable but check it with a straight edge to make sure it's flat and
don't leave the router in it when not in use. A 1/4" router restricts you to small diameter bits, roughly about 1 3/8 and while that encompasses a lot of different bits it also leaves out a few fairly important options as you gain skills and confidence. You will also need a plunge router to do some jobs safely and accurately. Look at CPO's website for remanufactured routers. They are more affordable and there have been very few complaints about them. Unlike new routers, reman routers get tested before they are sold. Bosch routers are about as good as you can get for longevity, customer service, and parts availability down the road. Parts availability will be your nemesis with Cman routers.


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

1171 is a good table...you'll be happy with it. 

The only disadvantage to 1/4 router is being limited to smaller bits. You will not be able to spin up a door set, for example.

The Bosch 1617 is a very good router...check out cpooutlets.com for a reconditioned.

Craftsman also has less expensive 1/2'ers...

Best of luck...sorry you couldnt get the HF going...for the best, long term...


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## newbie2wood (Apr 22, 2016)

Thanks Charles - I didn't know about CPO - very cool - and affordable!


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## newbie2wood (Apr 22, 2016)

Nickp said:


> 1171 is a good table...you'll be happy with it.
> 
> The only disadvantage to 1/4 router is being limited to smaller bits. You will not be able to spin up a door set, for example.
> 
> ...


No worries Nick - YOU THE MAN 

I greatly appreciate all your effort

Wish I knew about this site earlier - I could have saved a bunch on some other tools I bought LOL


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## mgmine (Jan 16, 2012)

It's definitely the table thickness. You may have the same problem even with a new table. You should recess the router into the table or get an extension. MLCS has one for around $20 dollars. Every now and then I need to use mine even thought 99% of the time the bits are fine.


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## Bushwhacker (Jun 16, 2009)

Where is STICK? I can't believe we had all these comments about Routers and no comments from Stick.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

I like the 1617 Bosch as well. The fixed base can be used as table mount and you can get a key to adjust height from above the table. All kinds of aluminum mounting plates out there for the Bosch. It can handle both half and quarter inch bits. I use half inch. An old trick to make bit inserting easier is to drop a half inch grommet into the collet to keep the bit from bottoming out. 

If you get a commercial table, it will probably need a plate, or may come with one set up for the table. Most table makers let you specify which router to match the plate's pre drilled holes. I am a fan of twist lock inserts, the ring that goes into the plate to have as close a fit to the bit size as possible. I have a Rockler brand table, but there are other, better tables out there. Shop carefully.


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

newbie2wood said:


> No worries Nick - YOU THE MAN
> 
> I greatly appreciate all your effort
> 
> Wish I knew about this site earlier - I could have saved a bunch on some other tools I bought LOL


Jessie, as you can see there are plenty of members that jump in and help...and as you continue on RF you will see them all...

Welcome, again...good luck with your future purchase...and don't forget to ask the membership for the "Voice of Experience" when you get ready to pull the trigger.


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## newbie2wood (Apr 22, 2016)

Thanks all - I returned the router table to HF - now shopping a new router and table

I doubt I am going to build my own table - but you never know.

It's starting to get very warm now in Florida - and that means my time in the shop/garage is going to be very limited if I get any at all.

So don't be surprised if I disappear and return as the weather cools

I have to figure a way to cool down my garage to use it during the hot months


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

newbie2wood said:


> Thanks all - I returned the router table to HF - now shopping a new router and table
> 
> 1.... I doubt I am going to build my own table - but you never know.
> 
> ...


1... why not??? cake and pie...
2... block or frame...
3... insulate and add through the wall HVAC unit...


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

newbie2wood said:


> Thanks all - I returned the router table to HF - now shopping a new router and table
> 
> I doubt I am going to build my own table - but you never know.
> 
> ...


In Florida, only AC really works. Insulation is the other half of the cooling equation. If you have a ceiling, check into blowing in insulation to at least R30. Walls to at least R13 or higher if they are 2x6. Aluminum roll up doors can be insulated with foam pretty easily. I live in a desert, and found that laying in a layer of aluminized bubble insulation helped reflect some heat out, so I put that in first, then the insulation. 

It the walls are covered but uninsulated, you would have to use a blow in type. Then a nice sized AC through an outer wall will make it livable. Problem in Florida is moisture condensation on your steel and iron tools. Frequent application of Johnson's wax or a rust inhibitor will help, but you will have to stay on top of it.

Not the cheapest thing to do, but once done, your garage shop will become a refuge for you. You might have to have an electrician run an extra line or two into the garage to have enought power, but it may or may not be needed. 

Insulating the workshop is one of the best things I've done. Still have to have the garage drywall put in along with some serious insulation. Have just a couple of big tools out there, so I just sweat or freeze in the summer or winter, but the garage's insulation is on the to do list. Door first.


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## newbie2wood (Apr 22, 2016)

Thanks guys,

Through the wall AC is not an option at the moment - the cost is prohibitive.

The garage has a room above it so there's no insulating the ceiling, there are 2 exterior walls but are full of "stuff" and the garage door is aluminum - are you talking about the spray foam for the garage door? I'd be afraid it would fall off onto one of the cars and ruin the finish. Maybe use the insulation boards instead - I have lots of those left over?

However, I am working on a solution.

I'm building an AC table to sit a window AC unit on. I have an exterior door with a window, but don't want to put a AC window unit in it - so it will rest on the table with it's compressor hanging out the window of the door.

Table will be on casters, so I can roll it out of the way and still use the door without fear of the AC unit falling out LOL.

When I no longer need the AC unit, I can re-use the table for one of my tools

The AC unit only cools 200 Sq Ft, so I am dropping some plastic from the ceiling to isolate the shop area I work in most. That leaves just the car part for sawing un-cooled.

This should allow me to work during the summer in the shop - I just do my sawing early in the AM before it gets too out of hand.

So far my tools haven't rusted, I have johnsons wax I use on the TS


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

polystyrene boards...


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