# Baltic Birch Ply issues.



## MascaraSnake (Jul 26, 2010)

Hi- anyone in UK with experience of buying/ using BBP over here?

I buy 8'x4' sheets at £55 a pop, one a month or so. I use it cut right down to 3' sq sections or so + thinner 3' x 6" 'panel' sections. And Im fed up with it warping.

What I want to know, is by how much in a large 8'x4' sheet I should expect to be seeing it bow, or warp when I buy it. At the mo Im consistantly getting as much as a 1' bow on the short side.. and 1'- 2' on the long side. It drives me insane. And Im forced to pay for it as its ordered for me.

I dont have the option of buying elsewhere, & my building supply bloke gets the hump if I Q the warp, or even if I ask if their supplier can "please make sure its flat": which makes no difference by all accounts- their supplier says 'its how we get it/ we dont make it' (Ive called them) and/ or 'once its cut up the tension will release & it will flatten'.. it doesn't, ever, certainly not this lg sheet into 3rds even leaving it in a dry flat areas for 2 weeks its ecactly the same, and still evident (say a 1" warp along the side of a 3' sq section) once cut into my useable-sized smaller pieces.

Also both faces are peppered with annoying filled areas in odd shaped birch filler spots approx 3" x 2". All over the shop. What are these, and should I be expecting these on a £55 sheet?

Thanks, The Mascara Snake.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

*bogglement to the 10th!*

Mascarasnake; you are being royally rodgered. Plywood, any plywood, is shipped flat on pallets, and kept dry. If it's warped, don't accept it.
Your supplier is supposed to be on _your_ side of this issue, not telling you to put your complaint where the sun don't shine.
It's either being shipped incorrectly...likely to save space on the truck, or the warehouse is mishandling it. In any case not your problem!
What Grade of BB are you ordering? The surface filling is highly suspicious; is it only on the back face?
Hardwood Plywood and Veneer Association


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## MT Stringer (Aug 15, 2012)

Hmmm...I only have access to 5x5 foot pieces. The lumber yard doesn't sell 4x8 footers. And I never have to fill anything, and no worries about warping.

I know it sounds dumb, but are you sure you are buying Baltic Birch, or Russian Birch? It should be multi ply made from birch w/no voids. Just asking.

I am wondering if the seller is passing off some kind of Chinese made crap marketed as BB.

Post some close up pics of what you have.
Mike

1/2 inch BB drawers.


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## vindaloo (May 30, 2009)

AFAIK for that price you should get solid plys, no filled voids and it should be flat and solid. Sounds like you have veneered ply or worse still, shuttering ply. Veneered usually has a thin veneer of a dark red/brown wood on either side, shuttering ply is non-veneered and usually has the filled voids, ideal for panelling a workshop and other shop related stuff, but not for cabinets.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Welcome to the forum MS.


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

I have never had a warping problem with true 5'X5' BBP. Even the 4'X8' Russian birch which seems to have softer inner plys and small voids is of a sufficient grade that it doesn't warp either. Neither has face plugs ,or edge filling. I use 1/2", 5/8", 3/4" thick sheets and never had a complaint. 

The USA birch is crap, it has very large soft inner plys and lots of voids. The inner plys are not butted together,they are over lapped and pressed creating a hump and a void.the edges are smeared with filler that falls out when it is cut. they are warped in all directions and not truly square sheets. The faces are so thin that they are sanded thru in spots where the inner plys cause humps, and have dimples where the faces have voids under and the face plyis sunk in. Not worth buying for anything but maybe crating. 

I think you are getting ripped off big time with that plywood they are selling you for BBP.
Herb


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

What MT Stringer said.

HJ


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## Shadowrider (Apr 1, 2015)

Herb Stoops said:


> The USA birch is crap, it has very large soft inner plys and lots of voids. The inner plys are not butted together,they are over lapped and pressed creating a hump and a void.the edges are smeared with filler that falls out when it is cut. they are warped in all directions and not truly square sheets. The faces are so thin that they are sanded thru in spots where the inner plys cause humps, and have dimples where the faces have voids under and the face plyis sunk in. Not worth buying for anything but maybe crating.
> 
> Herb


This crap is all I've been able to find at all the places around me. It's probably fine for construction sheathing and such, but if you actually want to build stuff with it, it's a total waste of time. I guess I'm going to hit up the smaller specialty yards because the big ones only seem to carry construction grade crap anymore.


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## schnewj (Nov 18, 2013)

First, welcome to the forum.

I have to agree with everyone here. You are being ripped off by your supplier. Baltic or Russian Birch is multi ply and high grade. Although it can come in a variety of sizes it is usually in 5' X 5' sheets for general uses. If you are getting 4' x 8' sheets, although it can come in this size, it is probably not Baltic Birch, but Birch Plywood. There is a difference. Birch plywood is inferior to the BB in all ways.

I would find a different supplier. I know that can be difficult, but since you are buying approximately a sheet a week, then any supplier would probably order a pallet and sell it to you a piece at a time if he knows he's not getting stuck with it.

Drop kick your present supplier and find one who will work with you and provide some customer service.

Bill


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

Count the plys , My 1/2" BBP has 9 plys, including the face plys, the 3/4 russian birch has 13 plys counting the face plys. 

Here are some pictures,(Not too clear) first the 1/2", then the 3/4".

Herb


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

British currency...#55 :
So, about $110Cdn or $84US today.


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## MascaraSnake (Jul 26, 2010)

Thanks for the replies- I was sitting on my arse thinking 'I wonder when I might get a reply' thinking Id see "X replied to yr thread" in my hotmail.

I have a feeling too Im being rogered by my supplier (whom Ive have a trade account with for 7 years..). The thing is they have my odd sheet of russian birch ply (as its deemed by them) delivered in a stack of other 8'x4' boards/ sheets etc: they cant be expected to pull it out, check it, put it back again and call their supplier saying it is, again, warped. Can they? should they?

Fwiw it is 9mm. Its 7-ply layers, the faces a light birch colour, as you'd expect. Id say there are consistantly 20 or so ('butterfly-sized odd shaped filler things in the top layer' as I call them/ I dont know the term/ same birch colour) in the 8'x4' sheet evenly spaced apart. No voids, the actual quality of it regardless of the filler things & the damn bow/ warp.. is pretty good: as Id expect birch ply to be.

It seems to me that its being stored prior to it being delivered to my supplier (who has a spotless, clean & dry horizontal rack as good as youd want to find) incorrectly. It seems tho Im no expert hence my Q here, that moisture has been introduced to it. 

The actual supplier (who supply my local place) Co is called Timbmet. Ive had a word at my place who got onto them when I was there straight off for me when I queried the first bad one (implying good relations with me, as Ive been used to from my supplier Im on 1st name terms with all 3 of them). Timbmet said "its just the tension of the top layer, it will undo once its cut, its normal" they said to me on the phone in my local place's office. I strongly said, "no I cut it regularly & it does -not- unwarp whatsoever etc etc". So we were at loggerheads. My chap asked them to replace it (a week's wait/ out of some work while I waited) & the replacement better.. but still warped. 

One sheet I had was so bad there was such a strong "wibble" the whole 4' sq corner of the sheet I had to scrap with this wibble in. This wibble looked so strong & permanent I doubt moisture was to blame.. just mfd extremely badly, maybe the drying/ layer/ glue process was simply hurried.

Thing is I have -no- alternative supplier anywhere near me, only alternative ply is chinese with some voids and poor quality inner layers (& even if stright when I buy it.. warps dreadfully once its cut into smaller sections: I have one 6" x 3' panel right near me clamped so unfeasably tight to try and unbend it I could hear it cracking. I have to use it tho. I have nothing else to use.

Thanks MS.


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## vindaloo (May 30, 2009)

I had some shuttering ply delivered which was bowed about 6 inches across the 8' length. Sent it back. They said the pallet center supports had broken and it had sagged in the centre. Not sure why they didn't move it onto alternate storage pallet but hey, this is England :frown:


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

I've found some decent 4x8 ply at Lowes, but it still has voids. I recently bought a sheet of maple veneered 3/4 at HD that was filled with narrow strips of seriously crappy wood and a ton of glue. Looked nice until you cut it. Not sure if I can use it for anything at all. 5x5 Baltic Birch is only to be found at a lumber yard, or by a cabinet maker who will sell you some. Its a 120 mile round trip to get some for me, but the difference is amazing.


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## MascaraSnake (Jul 26, 2010)

Its a bit difficult to guage the info from US folks as theirs might be entirely different in terms of what quality to expect (perhaps far higher than us bozos in UK who never complain/ suck it, then wonder why we seemingly continually get crappy service &/or products). Im really after some info from UK folks who use baltic birch, or birch ply, or russian birch.. or whatever the heck its called.

What are these odd shaped filler areas? I read what theyre called, but cant find the www page again. The'ye about 4"sq and wavy 2 sides, oval on other sides. All uniformly same shape. 

Why do they occur/ what are they for? or any info on these things.. Im not happy with them whatsoever as they show in the sections even after I paint the face black, & look dreadful tbh. Some sheets had just a few, but now they seem so frequent I had 20 in the last sheet, on both sides too.

I just dont know what to expect you see on buying a sheet. I have nothing to compare it to, no-one I know who could help, rarely Ive even heard of anyone using baltic birch ply in my whole life.

Thanks all MS


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## schnewj (Nov 18, 2013)

@MascaraSnake

If you don't have this information, you as well as some of the newer members, might find the attached PDF's useful.


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## bcfunburst (Jan 14, 2012)

Welcome to the Forum Mascara Snake.
Don't know where you live but its time to search out a new supply for your wood. I am sure you can Do a web search to find a reliable supply for your needs. You should never have to settle for the kind of crap wood you described. Is wood really that scarce where you live! I thought we were getting pretty poor quality right here in Canada since most of the really good product is exported to the rest of the world. I just keep searching until I find something worth the money, but a hobbyist can afford the time. I really do hope you can find some better supply.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Thanks, MS; that's good follow up info. Yeh, I can see why you wouldn't want to just walk away from your primary supplier, but...
Are there any commercial millwork or cabinet makers anywhere near you? Perhaps a drop-in social call might be in order?

Please fill out your profile a bit. It's very confusing ...you're talking in #'s but the little info field says you're in the US?
We'll have to just nickname you 'Rodger'...


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## MascaraSnake (Jul 26, 2010)

Hi thanks for the info chaps. Trouble is I just dont know what to expect. Im in UK. Its 9mm birch ply fwiw.

I really need info from folks here in UK, who know what is reasonable to expect. Reading what you guys get by default oover in N. america doesn tell me any info tbh: I have a feeling over there you might have far better quality stock available, us brits putting up with crap so often (service &/ or products) in our chipper stiff-upper-lip way we just expect crap. You guys over the pond simply wouldnt do with it, and demand better.

Can anyone identify what Im talking about re. the filler areas? there's a term for them I read, but I cant find the www page again. I cannot put up with having 20 of these evenly spaced butterfly-looking things across each side of an already dreadfully warped sheet.

I have found somewhere else close on the phone, but chances are they will be getting it from the same Timbmet Co in bristol, who I called their head office.. & they couldnt give a fk about my concern "we dont make it, so what can I do?". I put the phone down on them so annoyed I was. 

So my local merchants says "what can I do? Ive got this sheet in for you.. we just get it in from X". 
So I call X "its how we sell it, the warp is tension/ just cut it & it flattens". Bollocks it does.
So I call their head office "we dont make it, we get it from Y so what can I do?".

This is typical modern fkin england. & I hate the place. MS


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## MascaraSnake (Jul 26, 2010)

Rodger schmodger. Btw Im not in US as it says I am.


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## MascaraSnake (Jul 26, 2010)

I dont know what to expect from here in UK, thats what I want to find out. It might be completely different in terms of quality to expect from what you guys in N. America are used to; as we so often put up with such crap you just wouldnt: service, products whatever it is.

I need to hear from anyone in UK who can help really, as much as I appreciate the replies.

Can someone tell me what the name of these odd splayed-butterfly filler areas I keep seeing? i read they have a specific name but I cant find the www page again. I cannot put up with these showing thru even after painting sections of this damn ply- they look dreadful & cheap. tbh it looks like seconds-quality Im receiving, the frequency of these damn fill areas increacing to 20 evenly-spaced across the last sheet.. on both sides/ 40 or so in total.

Thank MS


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

_I_ know you're not, but others probably haven't noticed the pound sterling comment...that's what gave it away.

1) fill out a bit of info in the 'Profile'
---click on the Mascarasnake name. it should open up some options, one of them being the profile thing.
---make sure that you're _logged in_. If you don't check the 'keep me logged in' option it'll log you out when leave. Then it won't recognize you when you come back.
2) most of the members do a bit about their woodworking experience, tool crib, shop, and a very general geographic location; Wales, for instance.


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## MascaraSnake (Jul 26, 2010)

Yup thanks, I did just find where to change my location Ive just seen was default as US- prob why the replies assuming I was US.


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## MascaraSnake (Jul 26, 2010)

"Butterfly filler areas".. anyone?


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## MT Stringer (Aug 15, 2012)

MascaraSnake said:


> "Butterfly filler areas".. anyone?


You got me. Goat any pictures you can post? Closeups would be nice.


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## MascaraSnake (Jul 26, 2010)

MT Stringer said:


> You got me. Goat any pictures you can post? Closeups would be nice.


No Im too exhausted to get the cam batts on charge/ get the slr out etc.

It is apparntly the word "patches" Im looking for. I have these odd shaped patches, apparantly Ive just read/ found, & many of them.


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## MascaraSnake (Jul 26, 2010)

schnewj said:


> @MascaraSnake
> 
> If you don't have this information, you as well as some of the newer members, might find the attached PDF's useful.


Thanks for the info schnew.. some useful stuff there for sure.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

MS; Angie ('Vindaloo') might be able to give you better info re your side of the pond.
Router Forums - View Profile: vindaloo


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## Shadowrider (Apr 1, 2015)

MascaraSnake said:


> "Butterfly filler areas".. anyone?


They are patches to fill imperfections or discontinuities in the veneer face. In the U.S. typical plywood is generally used for structural purposes and cosmetic quality comes at a very very distant second. Pretty frustrating if you want to stain for appearance, not so much if you just want to paint. If you want appearance you have to get the high grade stuff for cabinet making and you still see some, but far fewer of them. It all depends on grade.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plywood#Grades

Here is a thread that has some examples and there are a fair number of examples if you do a google search for images instead of web.

CR4 - Thread: What Are These "Jigsaw Piece" Shaped Patches Plywood?

Hope this helps and good luck with your search for a source.


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## MascaraSnake (Jul 26, 2010)

Hi- thanks for that info. Jigsaw pieces is a good term. 

I think Im being sold C grade stuff (or whatever it might be BB/BB BB/CC means nothing to me.. Ive no idea what B or C stands for let alone "BB").. and paying A grade prices, being told its better than it is as they might cotton on to fact that i dont know the difference/ have no experience in the difference in grades.

Also having "X number of patches allowed" is totally useless info unless its stated what size is the eg in Q. 6 patches per 12sq inches? 6 patches per 12sq feet? 120sq'?


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## vindaloo (May 30, 2009)

DaninVan said:


> MS; Angie ('Vindaloo') might be able to give you better info re your side of the pond.
> Router Forums - View Profile: vindaloo


I did answer but got ignored, hey, what a female know anyway 0


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Angie; I _always_ listen to you!!!


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## MT Stringer (Aug 15, 2012)

MascaraSnake said:


> Hi- thanks for that info. Jigsaw pieces is a good term.
> 
> I think Im being sold C grade stuff (or whatever it might be BB/BB BB/CC means nothing to me.. Ive no idea what B or C stands for let alone "BB").. and paying A grade prices, being told its better than it is as they might cotton on to fact that i dont know the difference/ have no experience in the difference in grades.
> 
> Also having "X number of patches allowed" is totally useless info unless its stated what size is the eg in Q. 6 patches per 12sq inches? 6 patches per 12sq feet? 120sq'?


BB would be good both sides for plywood. That's what the designations are.
BC sanded plywood is stuff you would put on a sub floor deck or make shelves out of. The B side would be the best and the C side would have some knots or voids.

I think the best I have purchased was A2 veneer grade walnut 3/4 inch - $136.00 US for 4x8 sheet. Basically, that grade is imperfection free on both sides.

That is what I used for the liquor cabinet.


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## schnewj (Nov 18, 2013)

@MascaraSnake

Read the PDF's that I posted. The one titled _Plywood Grades_ explains both the North American (ANSI) and the international requirements for grading of plywood. 

From what you are describing, you are not even getting what we would refer to as, BB/CC. You are probably getting a construction grade plywood that is not really BB. Trust me, it is not easy for all of us to find BB in our respective parts of North America. Fortunately, if you are willing to pay the price you can have it shipped to you if it isn't locally available.

I'll assume that you are building cabinets? You don't specify. If you are just building shop cabinets you might get comparable quality from non "BB". It appears that you are painting them? If so, then it doesn't necessarily need to be BB. 

We are dealing with an influx of Chinese, plywood. It is the worst quality I have ever seen. Some of the South American is better, but not by much. Believe me, we feel your pain.

As suggested, try and find a local cabinet maker. If you can "get in" with these folks, they may be able to supply your needs without damaging you present supplier relationship.

Bill


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

vindaloo said:


> I did answer but got ignored, hey, what a female know anyway 0


Angie, I always read your posts, I like to see your input from a different perspective, surprised at the differences on some things and similarities on others.
I like your millwork company suggestion ,as they have sources an individual doesn't. 
I get most of my BBP from a hardwood supplier , Rockler, WoodCraft Supply, here. But the hardwood supplier is the cheapest, and he gives our Woodworking club a 10% discount. There was a spell when BB was not available as the chineese were buying it up , and all he could get was Russian birch. 
It is not as good quality wise as BBP , cheaper and comes in 4'X8' sheets but it is a good secound choice. 
They do sell ApplePly which is better quality than BBP , and costs nearly twice as much, it has maple faces.

Don't get discouraged ,Angie, keep posting.
Herb


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Roger; is this what you meant by "butterflies"? 
https://www.kitronik.co.uk/3201-3mm-laser-plywood-600mm-x-400mm-sheet.html


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## thomas1389 (Jan 4, 2012)

What's going on??? I bought two sheets of 4 x 8 Birch veneer ply about three months ago. I paid $CDN 59. a sheet at Rona, a big box here in Ontario from Quebec. In the process of putting together a couple of T.V. cabinets. (Yes, I'm slow. Too much more going on.) No patches, a couple of small voids when cut and it has good colour. I think it'll stain just fine. This stuff is eleven plies making 3/4". I dropped in a couple of weeks ago and was told it's all gone. Snapped up and possibly a one-off. Don't know the source of it. I'm in the middle of 5 Home Depots, 3 Loews and 3 Rona's, plus a few independents. Max. distance to the farthest is about 25 km. but they don't all stock the same stuff. You have to cover some ground. Even Loew's varies, depending on the neighbourhood. The highest price I've seen around here for 3/4 Walnut VC is $89.CDN. Just wish I was two people. I've just about stopped the wood stuff to put in a basement 2 piece and shower from scratch. Going through the concrete floor and all. I'd like to snoop around the mills up country before the snow but maybe springtime now.


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## vindaloo (May 30, 2009)

In the UK, decent quality cabinet grade ply is difficult to come by. I have 2 local timber merchants, both supply hardwoods of various types but neither stock furniture grade ply. Both stock the thin veneered ply that looks great but has numerous voids when you cut it, one has the shuttering ply which, as far as I'm concerned, is unfinished and has the filled voids which are filled with a filler, not wood.

On the other hand I do have a couple of places within 40 miles that have the furniture grade stuff but they're not merchants, but importers. You can go to them to get the stuff, and it is the price that has been quoted by 'Rodger'. They do store it dry for delivery to manufacturers but a couple of phone calls and I had a price.

It's definately more difficult to find than the cheaper, poorer quality stuff.
@MascaraSnake
Search g**gle for hardwood suppliers in your local area, then give 'em a call. See what they say. Most furniture grade goes to fabrication shops, not local merchants, my experience anyway.


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## MascaraSnake (Jul 26, 2010)

vindaloo said:


> I did answer but got ignored, hey, what a female know anyway 0


A woman scorned etc..

Angie Im sorry if I missed something, I have read the links folks have kindly added fpr me (hugely apppreciated- you guys across the pond are rarely anything but friendly & helpful on forums- a credit to y'all), but may have missed one-?

[The link you add there Im scratcjing my head over as its so full of info my brain cant cope (too minute & plentiful on a page, & Im not exactly sure how/if its meant to help re. this specific Q).

So does the BB apply to two faces, BC for eg means one vg face, one poor face? or one excellent face, one total crap.. or maybe one pretty good, t'other not quite as good?

Its reference points Im lacking.. rather like building my first amp; it works hallelujah.. but w'out being able to compare it to X (a ref point) Im left wondering continually if in fact it sounds right/ as it should, or flat as a pancake and major fettling req.

I make cabinets for amplifiers. Usually say H18 x W22 x D10 or so (so quite lg) specifically 3/4" pine covered in tolex and "tweed".. with front & back sections of bbply. The back panels are attached at the RHS and LHS only (onto upright 3/4" batons) so any bow is seen here: front too tho bow can be flattened if I have 4 sides to attatch to (usually tho its a top rail & btm rail, so bow in the ply front evident at its sides here).

Thanks, MS


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## MascaraSnake (Jul 26, 2010)

DaninVan said:


> Roger; is this what you meant by "butterflies"?
> https://www.kitronik.co.uk/3201-3mm-laser-plywood-600mm-x-400mm-sheet.html


Yes the first one.. peppered with these my 8x4' sheet is. (roger my arse.. oh no hang on thats not what I mean is it..).

Then I shall call you soppysealface Ive decided- soppy, or SSF.

MS


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## MascaraSnake (Jul 26, 2010)

MT Stringer said:


> BB would be good both sides for plywood. That's what the designations are.
> BC sanded plywood is stuff you would put on a sub floor deck or make shelves out of. The B side would be the best and the C side would have some knots or voids.
> 
> I think the best I have purchased was A2 veneer grade walnut 3/4 inch - $136.00 US for 4x8 sheet. Basically, that grade is imperfection free on both sides.
> ...


Ok BC then sounds like the one I need, or even CC if this means just knots.. I quite like knots, just not the nasty "butterfly patches" oj the one visible (back/ inside) face. In fact if its straight it can have xyz imperfections-as long as just one side. If its warped invaribly I have to use the imperfect side visible, if the warp forces me to use the section one way round only (this is where Im, at time after time after time you see).

Ive found another local place Im going in to see/ have a word with Alscot timber.. so with more knowledge thanks to this thread I might be in good stead.

terrific help- thanks chaps (& chappess Angie). MS


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## MascaraSnake (Jul 26, 2010)

Herb Stoops said:


> Angie, I always read your posts, I like to see your input from a different perspective, surprised at the differences on some things and similarities on others.
> I like your millwork company suggestion ,as they have sources an individual doesn't.
> I get most of my BBP from a hardwood supplier , Rockler, WoodCraft Supply, here. But the hardwood supplier is the cheapest, and he gives our Woodworking club a 10% discount. There was a spell when BB was not available as the chineese were buying it up , and all he could get was Russian birch.
> It is not as good quality wise as BBP , cheaper and comes in 4'X8' sheets but it is a good secound choice.
> ...


Herb,

I need to clarify the difference in plys/ start over then as I cant distinguish between: BBP (i assume is baltic birch ply), russian birch (what Im told this I get is).

Should I be asking for specifically baltic birch ply then first off, and not just 'birch ply' I wonder (regardless of the warp)?
or do we ask for 'birch ply' and it just might come from latvia, russia (or any baltic area roughly same geog anyway) then we deem it bbp or rbp even? I wonder if the russian stuff is just poorer quality (as seems to be the jist of your post here) and not what I should be asking for at all then.

MS

Im still


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## schnewj (Nov 18, 2013)

MascaraSnake said:


> Herb,
> 
> I need to clarify the difference in plys/ start over then as I cant distinguish between: BBP (i assume is baltic birch ply), russian birch (what Im told this I get is).
> 
> ...


Most of the high quality Baltic Birch Plywood is made is Russia/Latvia. Baltic and Russian Birch are generally the same. If you are just asking for Birch Plywood you may be getting Chinese garbage. Since you are getting 4' x 8' sheets (and the "butterflies") then I suspect that this is the case.

I would do an internet search and find a supplier in your area, or one willing to ship true Baltic or Russian Birch plywood directly to you. 

You might have to order a minimum amount, and although it may be pricey up front, it may be cheaper in the long run per sheet. Time is money and lost productivity and frustration dealing with inferior materials is just not worth it.

Since you are building speaker enclosures, then, have you considered other materials in lieu of the plywood? I don't know if you have MDF (Medium Density Foam) board available to you there. It is used quite extensively here for speaker enclosures.

Some of the members here have solid experience with building enclosures and may be able to offer some help/advice for alternatives. 

Other materials may not be adequate for what you are wanting for a final visual affect. You have been non-specific as to your vision of the final product should be.

Bottom line, if the plywood is warped and not usable, then it is time for a change. Nothing that you do will probably be adequate to flatten and keep it flat.


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## vindaloo (May 30, 2009)

The @MascaraSnake is not a link, it creates a 'notification' in your profile just to the left of the time below the forum header. It tells you someone has commented directly to you.

As for how furniture grade ply would sound in comparison to the cheaper stuff, I would assume it sounds better but I listen to MP3's not flac file and so wouldn't know for sure.

Furniture grade is definately superior in that it is more solidly constructed, so would assume (there's that word again) it is better, after all that is what cabinet makes use.


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

MascaraSnake said:


> Herb,
> 
> I need to clarify the difference in plys/ start over then as I cant distinguish between: BBP (i assume is baltic birch ply), russian birch (what Im told this I get is).
> 
> ...


Baltic Birch plywood might be made in Russia, But it is not the same as Russian Birch Plywood and thus marketed with different names.
1. Baltic Birch comes in 5'X5' sheets or cut down from that. Russian Plywood comes in 4'X8' sheets.

2. Baltic birch has hardwood birch inner and cross plies with no voids. Russian Plywood has softer wood cores not necessarily birch and small knots and voids. 
3. If you finish the edge of each in clear finish, it will be apparent which is which. The Baltic Birch will have bright shiny inner plies that jump right out at you. The Russian Plywood will have dull,brown, some light, small black knots small voids and thinner face plies.

4. There is nothing wrong with Russian Birch, it is a very good second to Baltic Birch, and the Russian Birch I get doesn't seem to warp. It is a tad cheaper too by the sq.ft.

If you are ordering just birch plywood ,who knows what you are getting. 
Read the pdf's that were posted previously they tell the story on the composition and grades of plywood.
I don't know if you can get lumbercore plywood ,it is solid wood core with hardwood face plys. It was popular years ago for cabinet doors. And if you you can get Appleply, it is a better quality than Baltic Birch, it has maple faces which are harder than birch.

Hope this helps.
Herb


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## schnewj (Nov 18, 2013)

Herb,

Thanks for clarifying the difference between Baltic and Russian. I have been under the impression that they were one and the same. Apparently, not so! I wasn't aware of the core differences.

Appleply will be a non-starter in this case. It apparently is common in the NW part of the US but not elsewhere that I know. I doubt it is available in the UK.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

*Rodger Schmodger*



MascaraSnake said:


> Yes the first one.. peppered with these my 8x4' sheet is. (roger my arse.. oh no hang on thats not what I mean is it..).
> 
> Then I shall call you soppysealface Ive decided- soppy, or SSF.
> 
> MS


Heh...You need a name and since you still haven't given us one I (how altruistic is that?!) gave you one. I'm happy to call you Percy if that's what you'd prefer?


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## Bodger96 (Mar 18, 2014)

We use a few hundred sheets each of 6mm and 12mm Baltic Birch 5 ft. x 5 ft. per year and have only had a problem when we went with a new supplier that was selling us lower grade BB. We went back to the reputable dealer (in business for 70 years) and have had no problems since. We have tried some South American plywood that had the core made out of blocks of plys (very strange)and it would delaminate at any time. You sometimes get what you pay for. 

Regards Bob


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## MT Stringer (Aug 15, 2012)

DaninVan said:


> Heh...You need a name and since you still haven't given us one I (how altruistic is that?!) gave you one. I'm happy to call you Percy if that's what you'd prefer?


Well alrighty then, until further notice...*Percy *it is.:grin:

Welcome aboard, Percy.

I hope you get your plywood woes worked out.


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## schnewj (Nov 18, 2013)

MT Stringer said:


> Well alrighty then, until further notice...*Percy *it is.:grin:
> 
> Welcome aboard, Percy.
> 
> I hope you get your plywood woes worked out.


*Percy*? Where I grew up *Percy* was a fighting word in my neighborhood!

But, if you insist, then *Percy* it is...


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

"Then I shall call you soppysealface Ive decided- soppy, or SSF."
-Percy

My atavar says to tell you that making fun of the face he was born with is mean...he's not soppy, just herring impaired!


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## schnewj (Nov 18, 2013)

DaninVan said:


> "Then I shall call you soppysealface Ive decided- soppy, or SSF."
> -Percy
> 
> My atavar says to tell you that making fun of the face he was born with is mean...he's not soppy, just herring impaired!


Sounds awful fishy to me, Dan! I've never heard the avatar complain about its herring before. Are you making excuses?:surprise:


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

"...Are you making excuses?"

Hmmm...that's de-bait-able


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## schnewj (Nov 18, 2013)

DaninVan said:


> "...Are you making excuses?"
> 
> Hmmm...that's de-bait-able


OK, I'll nibble, where do we go from here?


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

It's Percy's turn.


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## sunnybob (Apr 3, 2015)

as has been said, youre being sold shuttering ply, cheapest possible construction because its going to used to make a shape to pour concrete in and then (at best) reused, or more normally thrown away.

Cabinet ply is the best, but if youre making amp enclosures, why not use MDF board?

More expensive maybe, but totally stable, never going to warp under any dry conditions, and better sound absorption as well.


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## MascaraSnake (Jul 26, 2010)

vindaloo said:


> The @MascaraSnake is not a link, it creates a 'notification' in your profile just to the left of the time below the forum header. It tells you someone has commented directly to you.
> 
> As for how furniture grade ply would sound in comparison to the cheaper stuff, I would assume it sounds better but I listen to MP3's not flac file and so wouldn't know for sure.
> 
> Furniture grade is definately superior in that it is more solidly constructed, so would assume (there's that word again) it is better, after all that is what cabinet makes use.


Hi Angie- sorry not sure what the link is you add above/ it leads me to a profile page full of lord knows how much detail.. but I cant see anything to get me notification of a mssg: left of the time under forum header just leads me to the same profile page.

-----------------------------------------------------

Mdf is a definite no-no. Its used for speakers yes but hifi, to be cpvered in veneer. Mine are fingerjointed pine guitar amp cabinets which demand a superior front & back. Mdf is frowned upon to be used here.

{anyone know of a good "app" or wtf these things are called, which corrects spelling mistakes as I go along.. rather than me having to spend ages going back correcting every 3 words wasting so much time?? its that or Im just ging to carrt on regardlrss like thisd].

I just went to check my last 8x4 sheet just arrived in for me.. and its bettrer than one before but still a huge 'tension' across the short side which means the sheet flexes one way then 'pings' t'other way a full 2' along the length.

I am told I have to buy it too- head honcho guy at local place likeky to get the major hump with me if I say sorry its not up to par/ pls send back. I dont want to jeapordise my trade acc with him as its where i get my pine from & they cut it up for me. And theyre decent folks too.

Not easy situation. god I hate having to go back & dorrect every other word!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I m stesswe with all this. £55 a sheet and its crap & I have to buy it or my teade acc. goes/ pine supplier lost. I have mno choice but say " thanks, herews my £55".

BUT I have funnilty uenough dfouind another supplier!! local too. And £20 cheaper!! christ almighty hoe much I could have saved over the years! thanks to the info i checked what I can get and its BB (whether thats BB/BB or just BB I dont know if thers a difference, but made sure I think its "Baltic Birch Ply. BB grade. Latvia, otr russia, or somewhere from baltic region. Some patches but not covered on them. Should be straighter: no m,oisture avfected".

Thanks MS


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## schnewj (Nov 18, 2013)

@MascaraSnake

Don't worry too much about the spelling mistakes, we speak "typonese" here.

Glad you found another supplier with a better grade of material. Keep using your pine supplier, but buy the BB elsewhere. When they ask why you haven't bought any from them just be evasive. If they don't like it too bad...business has to be earned and they were unwilling to fix the problem. Ask yourself this, if your other supplier can get "quality" BB, why can't they?

Don't mistake BB (Baltic Birch) with BB grade. Apples and oranges here. Same letters different meanings.

So, when are you going to shows us some photos of your work? "The story is no good without photos".


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## MascaraSnake (Jul 26, 2010)

Yes I called again to check exactly what it will be (once I get thru my £55 sheet, sitting there waiting to be paid/ so a month away min).. so it 7 layers baltic birch ply + BB grade + 9mm/ ie 3/8" in proper talk. £35 a sheet, cut into 3rds too.. from a proper timber supplier/ lovely site all rural near stratford-on-avon (shakespere etc blah) so a nice trek out to get it on way to town. Defo NOT sourced form same Timbmet Co, bristol.

Its just a Q if this 'tension' (best describes the one sitting ready for me) is there in spades with the new suppliers' sheets. Its evident once I cut it into panels (IE 5" x 25" or so). The warp is an absolute headache here as it is 50% of the time, whcih I then have to try & clamp the feck out of to reverse/ doing another right now. Time-consumong & stressful if its covered and 'finished' & holds up a job or I have to completely redo the whole covered panel, a good hrs work just one of these. THIS is why Im hoping to heck I can eliminate in the future: I just want straight panels, thats all.

My cabinets are v. accurate repros of your late great Leo Fender's Co cabinets of the 50's.. so i wont do an injustice and post a pic, copies as they are. Theres a helathy amp-building small industry you see: so either by onesefl, or by usually small Co's (often say an ex-radio tube nerd, or his son perhaps whose grown up on tubes/ valves, in an elaborate garden shed making high qaulity amps) an orig amplifier with new components is born (invariably still the best sounding circuits you see). Originals cost a small fortune: for eg a single 12" small fender amp from late 50's (drool) goes for maybe £2k to £3k.. or buy a new 'clone' for £800.
Thanks MS


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Excellent news, on the new supplier front.
I can't remember whether you said you were using Mozilla Firefox as a web browser or not(?). It highlights spelling errors as you type, *if you select the option*, and if that's what you meant...

Under 'Options'

-right click on the high lighted word(s) and a drop down menu opens up (it ain't perfect...makes me crazy)

Back on the plywood topic; isn't 3/8" (9mm) a little on the light side? I would have guessed at least 1/2", if only from the convenience of having a bit more meat to work with?


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## MT Stringer (Aug 15, 2012)

About those typos...

Always preview your typing before you click the submit button. Your typos will have squiggly lines under the words that need to be corrected. Hover your mouse over each word and right click the mouse button. Suggested correct spellings will be displayed and you can click the correct one.

Actually, I see misspelled words as I am typing this.

Note: Sometimes my words are misspelled so badly the dictionary can't figure out what the heck I was trying to type. :surprise::frown:


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## vindaloo (May 30, 2009)

It's OK Mike, we know what you mean 

Most of the time.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

MascaraSnake said:


> Hi- anyone in UK with experience of buying/ using BBP over here?
> 
> I buy 8'x4' sheets at £55 a pop, one a month or so. I use it cut right down to 3' sq sections or so + thinner 3' x 6" 'panel' sections. And Im fed up with it warping.
> 
> ...


you are not getting the real deal Baltic Birch...
read Bill's PDF's...


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

vindaloo said:


> I did answer but got ignored, hey, what a female know anyway 0


now why would I do that...
doesn't happen...


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

MascaraSnake said:


> Then I shall call you soppysealface Ive decided- soppy, or SSF.
> 
> MS


whew....


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

schnewj said:


> *Percy*? Where I grew up *Percy* was a fighting word in my neighborhood!
> 
> But, if you insist, then *Percy* it is...


you guys got the lead....


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

DaninVan said:


> "Then I shall call you soppysealface Ive decided- soppy, or SSF."
> -Percy
> 
> My atavar says to tell you that making fun of the face he was born with is mean...he's not soppy, just herring impaired!


word...
herring breath that could krill ya...


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

schnewj said:


> OK, I'll nibble, where do we go from here?


I'll bite...
ask the lead aka master baiter...


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

vindaloo said:


> It's OK Mike, we know what you mean
> 
> Most of the time.


but does Mike???


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

Stick486 said:


> but does Mike???


Mike??? I thought it was Percy??

Herb


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Who's on first?


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## vindaloo (May 30, 2009)

Who's on second, what's on first.


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## schnewj (Nov 18, 2013)

vindaloo said:


> Who's on second, what's on first.


No, no, no! Who's on first, What's on second, I don't know is on third, Today is the catcher and Tomorrow is the pitcher.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

DaninVan said:


> Who's on first?


dunno...
got benched...


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Herb Stoops said:


> Mike??? I thought it was Percy??
> 
> Herb


the cloud thickens...


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## hawkeye10 (Jul 28, 2015)

MascaraSnake said:


> Hi Angie- sorry not sure what the link is you add above/ it leads me to a profile page full of lord knows how much detail.. but I cant see anything to get me notification of a mssg: left of the time under forum header just leads me to the same profile page.
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------
> 
> ...


I think you need to watch your language. :|:frown:


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## MascaraSnake (Jul 26, 2010)

Sorry if you're that sensitive hawkeye.

Great idea obout the spellcheck thingy. I had noticed the squiggly lines (my firefox) but thought it was just reminding me to redo the word rather than any useful right click thing! I'll try.. hey it works right here!

Terrifc.

Ok ply- I need to use 3/8 (9mm) as its A) the orig guage for a 1x12" speaker cabinet in fender tweed style, B) its less work to work than 12mm C) its less overall weight than 12mm if Im making 3' sq front and 2 back panels on average. D) price better too.

Im still obliged to buy the wibbly £55 sheet godamit sitting for me.. so will be a while before I start on another sheet from new place. But even so £20 less is a reief right there.

Thanks chaps, MS


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

hawkeye10 said:


> I think you need to watch your language. :|:frown:





MascaraSnake said:


> Sorry if you're that sensitive hawkeye.


mostly because this is a family site...


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## vindaloo (May 30, 2009)

Stick486 said:


> mostly because this is a family site...


And it's in the forum rules.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

vindaloo said:


> And it's in the forum rules.


courtesy...


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

I wasn't offended. (I've probably pushed the boundaries a couple of times myself.)
If you've ever spent any time around a school-ground, the language emanating from there would make a sailor blush.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

MascaraSnake said:


> Sorry if you're that sensitive hawkeye.
> 
> Great idea obout the spellcheck thingy. I had noticed the squiggly lines (my firefox) but thought it was just reminding me to redo the word rather than any useful right click thing! I'll try.. hey it works right here!
> 
> ...



Please do watch your language MS. We have all sorts on this forum and some are offended by such things. There is no need for it. You can get the point across without it.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

I've gone back and edited out all the offensive language I could find. If anyone sees anything I've missed please PM me.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

DaninVan said:


> I wasn't offended. (I've probably pushed the boundaries a couple of times myself.)
> If you've ever spent any time around a school-ground, the language emanating from there would make a sailor blush.


bet the kids don't talk like that at home...


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Wouldn't put money on it, Stick. It's the Progressive way, dontcha know?


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

daninvan said:


> wouldn't put money on it, stick. It's the progressive way, dontcha know?


.


.


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## David Dickson (Oct 30, 2015)

*Butterfly filler areas*



MascaraSnake said:


> "Butterfly filler areas".. anyone?


Could it be a "Dutchman"?
See //www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMcXwmoOExI


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Yes. Just a common term for a fill in patch. Nothing unusual about the patches except that they shouldn't be there in the product you're paying those prices for.
The ones I normally see here are eyeshaped.
Scroll down here to 'Face Grain Descriptions'...
Thomes Canada - Baltic Birch Plywood


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## MascaraSnake (Jul 26, 2010)

Are you serious moderator? youve spent time out going thru taking out 3 letters, that dont even form a word (IE f*d).. and telling me anyone would be -actually- be offended anyway?? how hilarious!

You godfearing puritans! repent for laying such innocent eyes on such defamatory gobbledegook from ye olde satanic MascaraSnake! REPENT!

MS


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## hawkeye10 (Jul 28, 2015)

MS I am not offended and say bad words myself but not at a place where everyone can hear or read them. It's just not the right thing to do.


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## vindaloo (May 30, 2009)

You seem a very angry person MascaraSnake. This is not the demeanor one should have when using power tools, as such an attitude can lead to the loss of fingers and other appendages. This forum is one of the politest forums on the internet and has rules to protect other members AND GUESTS who may find something of interest as they search the internet. Common courtesy is not just for any such 'god fearing puritans' but for all members and guests.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

vindaloo said:


> You seem a very angry person MascaraSnake. This is not the demeanor one should have when using power tools, as such an attitude can lead to the loss of fingers and other appendages. This forum is one of the politest forums on the internet and has rules to protect other members AND GUESTS who may find something of interest as they search the internet. Common courtesy is not just for any such 'god fearing puritans' but for all members and guests.


well said...


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## MT Stringer (Aug 15, 2012)

MascaraSnake said:


> Are you serious moderator? youve spent time out going thru taking out 3 letters, that dont even form a word (IE f*d).. and telling me anyone would be -actually- be offended anyway?? how hilarious!
> 
> You godfearing puritans! repent for laying such innocent eyes on such defamatory gobbledegook from ye olde satanic MascaraSnake! REPENT!
> 
> MS


Good luck with your plywood issues.
I'm outta here.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

MT Stringer said:


> Good luck with your plywood issues.
> I'm outta here.


where we gonna go eat???


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## schnewj (Nov 18, 2013)

Stick486 said:


> where we gonna go eat???


 @MT Stringer
@Stick486

Count me in, where we going for lunch?


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

schnewj said:


> @MT Stringer
> @Stick486
> 
> Count me in, where we going for lunch?


major smorgasbord...


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

Stick486 said:


> major smorgasbord...


Wait for me, 

Herb


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Herb Stoops said:


> Wait for me,
> 
> Herb


anybody else want in????


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

Who's buying???

HJ


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

Stick486 said:


> anybody else want in????


Don't forget Rick

Herb


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## JFPNCM (Dec 13, 2009)

I'm in let's go to Dan's.


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## schnewj (Nov 18, 2013)

JFPNCM said:


> I'm in let's go to Dan's.


Great idea, he has a stash of, er, blondes, ya that's it blondes. He is getting a new delivery on the ferry on Thursday.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

schnewj said:


> Great idea, he has a stash of, er, blondes, ya that's it blondes. He is getting a new delivery on the ferry on Thursday.


wait till the redheads fing out they've been excluded...


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## schnewj (Nov 18, 2013)

Stick486 said:


> wait till the redheads fing out they've been excluded...


Hey, we need to invite Cricket, also. If it's going to be a connoisseur meal, she likes food and we need a good photographer to take blackmail photos!


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

schnewj said:


> Hey, we need to invite Cricket, also. If it's going to be a connoisseur meal, she likes food and we need a good photographer to take blackmail photos!


great plan.....


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

schnewj said:


> Hey, we need to invite Cricket, also. If it's going to be a connoisseur meal, she likes food and we need a good photographer to take blackmail photos!


That's on way to get Cricket and RainMan together!!

Count me in!

HJ


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## MascaraSnake (Jul 26, 2010)

Im wasnt angry- I was chuckling at all you sensitive folks on the www. (I was being Ironic '"god-fearing puritans" etc.. can't you see that?!)

Its a place warts and all the www. get used to it. its real life. But honestly, not even spelling out a swear word/ disguising it as I did.. hardly consists even a wart! not even a pimple- maybe a small squeaky fart (christ smote me down again!). For goodness sake you delicate lot! Anyway heyho. how amusing.


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

Bacon n eggs for me please...waffle on the side with vanilla bean ice cream and strawberries on top...the real ones...coffee...black n bitter...


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Nickp said:


> Bacon n eggs for me please...waffle on the side with vanilla bean ice cream and strawberries on top...the real ones...coffee...black n bitter...


you forgot the ham-steak and sausages...
and refills on the coffee...


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Puns an' beer, Percy, puns an' beer; 'ats wot keeps im 'appy, it does...


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## vindaloo (May 30, 2009)

MascaraSnake said:


> Im wasnt angry- I was chuckling at all you sensitive folks on the www. (I was being Ironic '"god-fearing puritans" etc.. can't you see that?!)
> 
> Its a place warts and all the www. get used to it. its real life. But honestly, not even spelling out a swear word/ disguising it as I did.. hardly consists even a wart! not even a pimple- maybe a small squeaky fart (christ smote me down again!). For goodness sake you delicate lot! Anyway heyho. how amusing.


Oh my, you still haven't got it. You arrive from who know's where, and like an A-Bomb begin a rant and contravene the 'house-rules', then, when it is pointed out to you, and many members indicate this by ignoring your thread or speaking of something that has nothing to do with your thread, you come back again and have another poke at the bear.

My fellow forum members, I apologise for my countryman. He was obviously not bought up, as I was, to behave politely in strange (read unknown) company. Although Stick may be a little strange h34r:


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

vindaloo said:


> Oh my, you still haven't got it. You arrive from who know's where, and like an A-Bomb begin a rant and contravene the 'house-rules', then, when it is pointed out to you, and many members indicate this by ignoring your thread or speaking of something that has nothing to do with your thread, you come back again and have another poke at the bear.
> 
> My fellow forum members, I apologise for my countryman. He was obviously not bought up, as I was, to behave politely in strange (read unknown) company. Although Stick may be a little strange h34r:


Well said, Angie, you don't have to feel you have to apologize for a person who gets his jolleys by insulting people who are trying to help him. His words fall on an empty hall as his audience has left and he is left ranting to himself like some kind of idiot.

Herb


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## thomas1389 (Jan 4, 2012)

Herb Stoops said:


> Well said, Angie, you don't have to feel you have to apologize for a person who gets his jolleys by insulting people who are trying to help him. His words fall on an empty hall as his audience has left and he is left ranting to himself like some kind of idiot.
> 
> Herb


More to be pitied than censored.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

vindaloo said:


> . He was obviously not bought up, as I was, to behave politely in strange (read unknown) company. Although Stick may be a little strange h34r:


insufficient pounds ya say???...

OUCH!!! I heard that last remark...
I'll have you know ''a little'' just doesn't cover...


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Angie I couldn't have said that better. I do hope he has gotten the message this time. I obviously can and will do something about it if he didn't.


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