# Calling Router Forum Cavalry



## Seldonman (Jul 30, 2013)

Okay guys and gals, once again I must ask for your help, input, advice, etc. I am undertaking the biggest job I have ever done and I am making progress but I keep hitting road blocks that, with your help, I so far have over come. HOWEVER, this may be the biggest so far. I am making Frame and Panel door for my kitchen cabinets and everything is going swimmingly until I did a mock fit up. The top and Bottom are 18 and 3/8th inches wide and the length is 21 and 7/8 inches both sides. However, I am not square. When I run a tape diagonally it is 29 inches one side and 29.250 on the other! I have put it in the parallel clamps but that did not help.

One critical factor may be that I recently switch from listening to the Rolling Stones whilst wood working and have started listening to Doris Day and the Ray Conniff Singers! Is that the problem? Other than that I do not know why it is not square as the stiles and rail are equal.

Included is a photo of my frame and panel that is not L7 Square.

Jim in Peoria, AZ.


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## DonkeyHody (Jan 22, 2015)

1. Check rails and stiles not only for equal length, but also check to be sure the bits cut full depth to the bearing, especially the end cuts.
2. Check the floating panel for squareness with a framing square.
3. If all else is well and you have adequate float space around your panel, then you can tweak the assembly into squareness by applying a clamp diagonally.


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## sunnybob (Apr 3, 2015)

Ray Conniff? 
Youre way past help.


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## sunnybob (Apr 3, 2015)

On a slighty more serious note,
as you are gluing up, mark the sides as per Pythagorus theorum.
Mark a point 3" from the corner on one side, 4" from the corner on the other side, and when gluing, measure across the angle to the marks, and adjust untill you get 5".

A 3, 4, 5 measurement will ALWAYS give you a right angle, whatever measurement system you are using


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## Seldonman (Jul 30, 2013)

Sunnybob I don't need router forums to tell me I am way beyond help as I already now it. Maybe I should meet somewhere in the middle between the stones and Ray C. How about Gordon Lightfoote? On a more funny note, I will attempt to use the Pythogorus theorum. Just one question, are you a Junior high geometry teacher???


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## sunnybob (Apr 3, 2015)

Jim, if you are over 60, you have to have learnt Danny Kaye's musical lesson by heart. Dont have a clue what the film was called, but I'm word perfect on the song;

OH....
The square of the hypotenuse of a right tri- angle
is equal to
the sum of the squares
of the two opposing sides.

For my sins, I also used to dig fish ponds for a living. try getting a 10 foot x 6 foot hole in the ground square without singing that song.

Try Paulo Nuttini, his "pencil full of lead" is my phone ring tune.


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## Gaffboat (Mar 11, 2012)

Doris Day and the Ray Conniff Singers? It doesn't get more square than that so everything should be perfect! :sarcastic:


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## sunnybob (Apr 3, 2015)

Hey, dont you dare diss Doris day.

take me back to the black hills/ windy city/ deadwood stage/ Calamity Jane/ Thats my childhood youre snubbing there.


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## Seldonman (Jul 30, 2013)

NO, I AM NOT Over 60, I was born in 1953 so I am 39 years old!


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## Shop guy (Nov 22, 2012)

So was Jack Benny.


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## Seldonman (Jul 30, 2013)

Button and Bows! Anyone guy over 55 who does not now claim or at some point in his childhood claimed to be in love with Doris Day is suspicious!


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## sunnybob (Apr 3, 2015)

2015 minus 1953 equals HOW MANY?

Wish I had been taught that system om counting my age.


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## sunnybob (Apr 3, 2015)

Seldonman said:


> Button and Bows! Anyone guy over 55 who does not now claim or at some point in his childhood claimed to be in love with Doris Day is suspicious!


'course, I was ALWAYS suspicious of Rock Hudson. No real man could be that cleanly scrubbed


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## Seldonman (Jul 30, 2013)

Well!


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

that joint pictured appears to be open...
triple check the leg lenghts and don't fudge...

there is only two kinds of music...

Country or Western....


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## sunnybob (Apr 3, 2015)

Country;
you can have my husband, but please dont mess with my man.

Western;
a four legged friend, a four legged friend.

Nah.
You just need some George Thorogood Rock and roll in the shed.
Move it on over, Big dog's moving in.


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## Seldonman (Jul 30, 2013)

Stick,

Four Words for you: Johnny Cash and Patsy Cline! Okay, that was five.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Sarah Vaughn...




:wub:


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## MT Stringer (Aug 15, 2012)

Seldonman said:


> NO, I AM NOT Over 60, I was born in 1953 so I am 39 years old!


HMMM...sumptin' fishy about his math! :grin::grin::grin:


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## MT Stringer (Aug 15, 2012)

Seldonman said:


> Okay guys and gals, once again I must ask for your help, input, advice, etc. I am undertaking the biggest job I have ever done and I am making progress but I keep hitting road blocks that, with your help, I so far have over come. HOWEVER, this may be the biggest so far. I am making Frame and Panel door for my kitchen cabinets and everything is going swimmingly until I did a mock fit up. The top and Bottom are 18 and 3/8th inches wide and the length is 21 and 7/8 inches both sides. However, I am not square. When I run a tape diagonally it is 29 inches one side and 29.250 on the other! I have put it in the parallel clamps but that did not help.
> 
> Included is a photo of my frame and panel that is not L7 Square.
> 
> Jim in Peoria, AZ.


What is out of square? Is it the cabinet frame or the door?

Has the door already been assembled?


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## tomp913 (Mar 7, 2014)

sunnybob said:


> 2015 minus 1953 equals HOW MANY?
> 
> Wish I had been taught that system om counting my age.


I believe that lesson is limited to the fairer sex.


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## tomp913 (Mar 7, 2014)

As pointed out by Danny Kaye in "Merry Andrew", A^2 + B^2 = C^2. However, unless my calculator is wrong, the hypotenuse of the triangle with sides of 18-3/8 and 21-7/8 is 28-9/16" heavy. As Stick suggested, I'd check that the ends of the rails are machined correctly and seat in the stiles as they are supposed to. Have you measured the door without the panel installed? - maybe the panel is too large or as MT Stringer suggested is not square. If the assembled frame checks out, do you have a way to accurately measure inside the groove and check that against your panel size?


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## Seldonman (Jul 30, 2013)

No, the door has not be glue. I will next attempt to square it without the panel inserted to see if it is the panel or the insert. I got the feeling it might be that the rail ends are off, that is, one side is deeper than the other.


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## Seldonman (Jul 30, 2013)

Sarah Vaughan and Gershwin are hard to beat


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

MT Stringer said:


> HMMM...sumptin' fishy about his math! :grin::grin::grin:


leap years must figure in there some place...


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## MT Stringer (Aug 15, 2012)

I know it is not your style on this project, but face frame construction with a 1/2 inch overlay, eliminates most of the hassle you are having to deal with. A smidgeon off and no one will ever know the difference... 'cept you!

I do use a lot of clamps and a framing square when I build doors or drawer fronts. And dry fit each one just make sure my mind didn't wander off when I was cutting the parts.

Hope this helps.
Mike


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## Seldonman (Jul 30, 2013)

Mike, that is a beautiful raised panel. Poplar? Yes, I am going to stick with stick and cope and keep doing it till I get it right. I will keep everyone informed.


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

My 2c....

You may have measured the length of each of the parts, but the saw blade may not have made a perfect 90° cut....

Are the inside and outside measurements exactly the same?

The error accumulates...


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## MT Stringer (Aug 15, 2012)

Seldonman said:


> Mike, that is a beautiful raised panel. Poplar? Yes, I am going to stick with stick and cope and keep doing it till I get it right. I will keep everyone informed.


Yes sir, poplar.


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

If 2015-1953=39, the .25" out of square is not that bad. As already mentioned, my guess is that end the cuts are a smidgen out of square and you need to take a hard sanding block and touch up the squareness of the ends of the rail. 
Does the panel have clearance in the slot so it is not interfering with the squareness? If it is not glued up you should be able to rack it square and see where the ends are not square and fix them.
Listen to Willie Nelson, he knows how to fix it.

Herb


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

As Herb and others have said, something has to be slightly out of square. 

As far as traditional, if you can call it that, nothing beats the Benny Goodman quartet with Gene Krupa on drums. Certainly the Dorseys and Glenn Miller made honorable mentions. Artie Shaw was an undisputed genius. Then there was Pink Floyd, Emerson, Lake, and Palmer, Yes, Zappa and the Mothers of Invention, and King Crimson. After all, if you want to expand your mind you need to listen to mind expanding music, right? Although they didn't set the pace on that. Edgar Varresse from the 30s and Charles Ives from the 19 teens did that. Then there is BB King, Albert King, Bo Diddely, Stevie Ray Vaughn, and many others doing blues, the only truly American music. Then Southern Rock - Allman Bros., Lynerd Skynerd, and Marshall Tucker Band among others. Then of course there is classical which has lasted for 4 centuries. There's Bach and Beethoven among the old timers with Edvard Grieg, Aaron Copeland, and Tchaichovsky among the newer comers. I still get goosebumps when I listen to the 3rd movement of Tchaichovsky's Sheherazade played by the Philadelphia Philharmonic under the direction of Eugene Ormandy. So many options, why pidgeon hole yourself?


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

@Cherryville Chuck....
waht are you ... 125 years old????


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

Stick486 said:


> @*Cherryville Chuck* ....
> waht are you ... 125 years old????


Stick, good music is timeless......:wink:


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## neville9999 (Jul 22, 2010)

You should be listening to Led Zeppelin, do that and all will be OK. N


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## mgmine (Jan 16, 2012)

If the panel is square and everything else is right then it's being pushed out of square in the assembly process. Try to get it square dry by tapping the corners.If you can do it then put the glue on and square it up again by tapping, once square let it be and don't apply clamps. If the rail and stile cuts are correct then they will be a tight fit and will hold without clamping.


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## Seldonman (Jul 30, 2013)

Okay, I thought I posted this last night but I don't see it this morning so I will post again. When I insert the panel it is very, very tight. I have to hit it hard with a rubber mallet to get it to seat or to come apart. Question, do I need to open the groove a little so I can move the frame around with the panel in it? 

Jim

PS If everything fails I am going to spend the rest of my life in my room with my head phone on listening to IN A GADDA DA VIDA by Iron Butterfly!


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## splinterz (Apr 11, 2011)

You took the Rolling Stones out of player and replaced them with Ray Conniff??? No wonder you " can't get no SATISFACTION "


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## curly1 (May 7, 2010)

By the looks of that old square I'd check it for squareness, it could be out.


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## stevenrf (Jul 30, 2010)

Maybe that's why they invented wood filler.


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## Roy Drake (Feb 10, 2014)

I can't decide for sure, but you've either listened to "Mama Told Me Not To Come" too much or not enough. I am one who can't hear it enough. That may explain my bad hearing.


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## sunnybob (Apr 3, 2015)

ok, I know I hijacked this thread with the music theme, but try this one, and a word of warning...
DO NOT operate machinery while listening, you might lose something precious while youre bopping around the workshop


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

I'd start with checking the saw you're using to crosscut rails and styles. Same with the panels. If the parts aren't perfectly square, the assembly cannot be square. If the fence and blade are not parallel to the miter grooves, it will affect everything. 

Did you mill the rails and styles yourself from larger stock (Rip cuts) with the saw off by not much, then you can't wind up square. 

When you use a known square (use a large 90 degree drafting triangle or machined engineers square), is the insert square? If not, then you have a parallelogram, opposite sides are equal, but not square. Once a piece is a parallelogram, all additional cuts on the piece will be off will be off. Rails and styles that are parallelograms to begin with, and then one piece turned wrong side up will multiply the problem.

This would also apply to cutting with a circular miter saw. I prefer doing cutoffs with a sled that has tested as 90 degrees to the blade, checked with a large draftsman's triangle. Cut a workpiece on the sled (or miter gauge if you're using one) and then invert one part and push it against the other. If there is a gap, then you're not cutting square. 

I hope it is just the saw being off. It is very easy for that to happen. Can be something as simple as getting some tiny wood chip under the fence locking mechanism. If you're using a miter gauge to make cuts, it may say 90, but it could be 90.02 or 89.08. I sometimes use an Olson gauge, which I've carefully tuned to be an exact 90 to the blade. But I'd make sure the blade is parallel to the miter slot in which the Olson rides.

Are you using a Wixey to make sure your blade is 90 to the table? That could add to the problem.

Picking nits? My face frames, cabinets and doors come out perfect because I always take a little time to check the factors above before every project. Small errors do add up. 

Count me in as a fan of Miss. Day. Her husband destroyed her career and spent all her money. She lives a quiet life these days in a quiet little town on the California Coast. She is still pretty yummy if you ask me.


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## MEBCWD (Jan 14, 2012)

Jim the panel should not be that tight, it should move in the grove with the music. I would chamfer the back edge of the panel enough that it will fit in the panel without being forced into the grove.


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## Seldonman (Jul 30, 2013)

I thought of using a shoulder plane on the back of the 1/4 inch oak plywood panel but not sure if I can plane plywood without it chipping out. guess I could try on a scrap piece. What about attempting to open the groove just a scootch on the router table?


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## MEBCWD (Jan 14, 2012)

I would just go around the edges with a sanding block to add the chamfer.


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## tomp913 (Mar 7, 2014)

If the panel is tight all the way going into the stile/rail, set-up the router table to take a cut a little wider than the depth of the groove along all four edges and just a kiss into the back face of the panel. From experience, I can tell you that works pretty well - go cross-grain first and finish with the long edges to remove any splintering although you shouldn't see any with that light a cut and a sharp bit..


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## tomp913 (Mar 7, 2014)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> As Herb and others have said, something has to be slightly out of square.
> 
> As far as traditional, if you can call it that, nothing beats the Benny Goodman quartet with Gene Krupa on drums. Certainly the Dorseys and Glenn Miller made honorable mentions. Artie Shaw was an undisputed genius. Then there was Pink Floyd, Emerson, Lake, and Palmer, Yes, Zappa and the Mothers of Invention, and King Crimson. After all, if you want to expand your mind you need to listen to mind expanding music, right? Although they didn't set the pace on that. Edgar Varresse from the 30s and Charles Ives from the 19 teens did that. Then there is BB King, Albert King, Bo Diddely, Stevie Ray Vaughn, and many others doing blues, the only truly American music. Then Southern Rock - Allman Bros., Lynerd Skynerd, and Marshall Tucker Band among others. Then of course there is classical which has lasted for 4 centuries. There's Bach and Beethoven among the old timers with Edvard Grieg, Aaron Copeland, and Tchaichovsky among the newer comers. I still get goosebumps when I listen to the 3rd movement of Tchaichovsky's Sheherazade played by the Philadelphia Philharmonic under the direction of Eugene Ormandy. So many options, why pidgeon hole yourself?


Not 125 either but I grew up listening to big band music on my parent's radio (BBC). In 1962, I got locked out of the house because I came home after "curfew" - a friend and I went to a concert featuring Acker Bilk and Kenny Ball (among others), missed the last bus and had to walk home all the way across Edinburgh. That was the music I listened to until the Beatles era, spent many hours listening to Radio Luxembourg on a 9V transistor radio as "that music" wasn't allowed on my parent's radio.


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## billyjim (Feb 11, 2012)

Quite a wide variety of listening tastes. I am surprised no one mentioned Bing Crosby. There are some other notables I would add as well...Perry Como, Frank Sinatra, Bobby Darin, Nat King Cole, Henry Mancini...all really mellow and easy listening.


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## billyjim (Feb 11, 2012)

There are some terrific You tubes of Gene Krupa drum solos


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

*WUT!?!?!?...*
no steels....


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

drums we gots...


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## Seldonman (Jul 30, 2013)

Just awesome! Now, on another note, I just figured out that the hypotenuse should be 29.22 inches or 29.25 inches and I am getting 29.0 and 29 & 5/16". Stick, how do I loosen the fit between the frame and panel. Should I attempt to open her up by passing it through the router one more time with just a very tennie, tiny adjustment. Right now I love the tight fit but I must use a rubber mallet to put the panel and and take it out, it is just that tight.


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## tomp913 (Mar 7, 2014)

Stick486 said:


> *WUT!?!?!?...*
> no steels....


Jimmy Buffett has an awesome steel band as part of his show. I was at one of his concerts years ago, and one of the drummers played a 15 minute solo at intermission.


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## tomp913 (Mar 7, 2014)

billyjim said:


> Quite a wide variety of listening tastes. I am surprised no one mentioned Bing Crosby. There are some other notables I would add as well...Perry Como, Frank Sinatra, Bobby Darin, Nat King Cole, Henry Mancini...all really mellow and easy listening.


Forgot Dean Martin..............


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## tomp913 (Mar 7, 2014)

Seldonman said:


> Just awesome! Now, on another note, I just figured out that the hypotenuse should be 29.22 inches or 29.25 inches and I am getting 29.0 and 29 & 5/16". Stick, how do I loosen the fit between the frame and panel. Should I attempt to open her up by passing it through the router one more time with just a very tennie, tiny adjustment. Right now I love the tight fit but I must use a rubber mallet to put the panel and and take it out, it is just that tight.


You initially gave dimensions of 18-3/8" wide x 21-7/8" high - are these over the assembled door? At a finished door size to these dimensions, I keep getting 28.568" as the corner-to-corner dimension.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Seldonman said:


> Just awesome! Now, on another note, I just figured out that the hypotenuse should be 29.22 inches or 29.25 inches and I am getting 29.0 and 29 & 5/16".
> 
> 1... Stick, how do I loosen the fit between the frame and panel.
> 2... Should I attempt to open her up by passing it through the router one more time *with just a very tennie, tiny adjustment. *
> ...


1... cut the panel down or deepen the dado/rabbet...
2... if you will consider 1/8'' of clearance all the way around a very tennie, tiny adjustment....
cut it w/ a slot cutter or a rabbeting bit... which ever works the best....
3... that's one one love affair you need to break off...
4... that is way too much too tight....

1st... 
disassemble and remove the panel...
inspect and measure your rabbets/dadoes for uniformity/depth.. (fix the issue if need be)...
assemble the frame....
check for squareness...
if so check the panel for squareness (fix the issue if need be) and fit it into the frame like it should be...

if not...
make sure your rails and stiles match in length... (fix the issue if need be)...
make sure your stub tenons fit correctly... (fix the issue if need be)...

2nd... the panel should fit snugly and not anything resembling tight... (fix the issue if need be)...
it's got to move or your frame is gong to suffer...
hold the panels from rattling w/ space balls, screen spline or some other shop generated soft cushioning seat of the pants engineering...
don't forget to prestain your panels before assembly...
install the panel...


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## TenGees (Sep 12, 2012)

I've found that when you're sanding it's good to listen to Smooth Jazz.


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