# Carving with the router



## template tom (Sep 18, 2004)

Hi all
I would be interested if anyone has done any carving with the router. I saw a design and I was wondering if it could be cut with the router.
Has anyone any idea. I will give it a go.
Tom


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## AxlMyk (Jun 13, 2006)

Well, you could part with $2000 and buy the Craftsman CNC machine.. That way we would have a test person to report on it for us..  

Other than that, perhaps something with a flex shaft.. That could be a tough one Tom..


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## challagan (Feb 7, 2006)

It looks a lot like a design that could be made with the Milescraft Spirocrafter.
http://www.milescraft.com
I got one for christmas and haven't been able to use it yet. Uses a template guides and small carving and inlay bits. 

Corey


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Mike, as you know Sears doesn't build any of the tools they sell. The CompuCarve is made by CarveWright. To visit their site just add: .com to watch the demo and see items they have produced.


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## AxlMyk (Jun 13, 2006)

Yes, I've seen the site..


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## kp91 (Sep 10, 2004)

Tom,

I saw a guy a few years back at a woodworking show in the States who carved entry doors with a router almost exclusively. He used a bit that looked more like a 1/4 inch round nose carbide burr to hog out most of his material, then finish up with a bowl bottom bit or small spiral bit. It was amazing how fast he could do his carvings. Unfortunately, I can't remember his name.......

He did it all free hand, no guides, just a big clear sub plate.


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## template tom (Sep 18, 2004)

Thanks to all who responded to the posting.
What I was trying to find out *can this be achieved with the router in the plunge mode with the aid of template guides,* without the need to go and purchase any expensive equipment.
*Well the answer is yes* today I went to my workshop to prove it could be done and I have posted the results. This opens up another method of using the guides I had never considered before. I will leave you to put on your thinking caps and see if you can come up with the answer before I submit the solution to the problem.
When I went to my workshop with the necessary drawings required to make the template I was unsure of the final results that I could achieve and I am very happy with the technique I used though I would change the design slightly based on an elliptical shape. So I will get back to the drawing board and make the necessary changes to improve the design. 
Anyway I would be interested in your method if you were interested in the challenge to Carve with the router without the expense of purchasing the jigs that were considered for purchase.
My expenses were a piece of MDF 400 x 300 x 9mm and the material fitted into my original jig holder See "introduction to the use of template Guides"

Tom


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## AxlMyk (Jun 13, 2006)

I knew it.. That was a trick question all along.. 
I can see how an inside template would be used, and I'm thinking that one double-back taped to the wood, then rout around the outside of it..


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## Joe Lyddon (Sep 11, 2004)

Hi Tom,

Yes, I thought it was a "Setup" too... I just KNEW that you were going to show us how you did it...

But, no, you just show us the finished project...

I'll bet it wasn't done with a 40mm guide!   

Making the original for routing... how did you make it?

I wasn't sure how all of those lines were supposed to be handled...

OK, Tom, you have more pictures for us... yes?  

Thank you for coming through!


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

See the item below

Bj 

Hi Tom and Harry

All I'm saying is it's not the same , If I ask you to carve a pine tree and you carved a elm tree,,, hummmmm ,it's not the same both are trees but not the same.
If I gave you a pattern and I ask you to copy it,,,,and you came back with one that was almost the same but not like the one I gave you.

But you did a great job doing your tree. 

Maybe we should ask Charles M. ( forum member ) to take the pattern you posted and put it in his new CarveWright machine and make one just to show how it should look when you use a real carve router to make it.
If you get some time go to the CarveWright web site and look at some of the items this machine as made, all I can say is WOW, it was done with a router bit and a machine that you and I can now buy without paying $15,000.oo or more for a CNC router setup.
It's a new age of routers and computers and it's only get better for the small wood shop. 
If you want to play you must step up to the pump so to speak just like the computers.

http://www.carvewright.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=6&sid=cbf4fd161824fb9fe99f1f33506759b8
http://www.carvewright.com/forum/
http://www.carvewright.com/

Like the ones below 


Bj


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## challagan (Feb 7, 2006)

Hmmm seems to me if you want the carving to look like the original photo what is needed is a pattern or template guide for one quarter of the design that has the three different shapes cut out in it. It could then be rotated to duplicate the other sections of the design. The center circle needs just that .. a circle over the center to rout around and carve that out. 

Corey


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## template tom (Sep 18, 2004)

Joe Lyddon said:


> Hi Tom,
> 
> Yes, I thought it was a "Setup" too... I just KNEW that you were going to show us how you did it...
> 
> ...


*All I ask is for others to at least give it a try before they hang on to someone feeding the answers all the time I am sure there must be others who will produce the same project and not necessarilly the same way as I have produced it.  * 

I must confess I enjoyed the challenge I presented to myself and it gives me great pleasure to achieve the answer.

Tom


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## template tom (Sep 18, 2004)

bobj3 said:


> See the item below
> 
> Bj


Hi Bob
_Harrysin contacted me regarding if I could interpret the comments and the arrows on the pic that you submitted Unfortunately I too was at a loss regarding your comments I'm sure readers would appreciate a further explanation as Harry and I would> I am pleased to hear from Harry that he will make the effort to try and produce a template as he has been converted to the use of the guides a number of years ago._
.Tom


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## template tom (Sep 18, 2004)

challagan said:


> Hmmm seems to me if you want the carving to look like the original photo what is needed is a pattern or template guide for one quarter of the design that has the three different shapes cut out in it. It could then be rotated to duplicate the other sections of the design. The center circle needs just that .. a circle over the center to rout around and carve that out.
> 
> *Corey*


*
Corry 
Your on the button now what about going for it
Tom*


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## challagan (Feb 7, 2006)

Tom, what I wasn't quite sure of was if what you were after was a way to do a line carving like your drawing or a separate carving to be applied to something as in your photos above. It's a neat piece, reminds me of the stuff you saw in the 50's and 60's... the atomic generation  Are you going to apply this to a cabinet or something? 

Corey


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Tom 

see add on notes and snapshots to the 1st. post 

Bj 





template tom said:


> Hi Bob
> _Harrysin contacted me regarding if I could interpret the comments and the arrows on the pic that you submitted Unfortunately I too was at a loss regarding your comments I'm sure readers would appreciate a further explanation as Harry and I would> I am pleased to hear from Harry that he will make the effort to try and produce a template as he has been converted to the use of the guides a number of years ago._
> .Tom


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## template tom (Sep 18, 2004)

bobj3 said:


> Hi Tom
> 
> see add on notes and snapshots to the 1st. post
> 
> Bj


Bob.
I was not answering your posting you refer me and others to. I see you have edited your first post I was answering to since it was first published.(sneaky) You could have answered my posting instead of refering me and every one else back to a posting you had changed by adding more information. 
It would have been more fitting and I would have appreciated it more if you had submitted a new posting to keep the progression correct especially if new readers were to come on scene. If they had not spotted the change they might think I am an idiot or something.
*I hope others noted that it had been edited especially any newcomers to the forum.* 

*I will go and answer that new posting*


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## template tom (Sep 18, 2004)

challagan said:


> Tom, what I wasn't quite sure of was if what you were after was a way to do a line carving like your drawing or a separate carving to be applied to something as in your photos above. It's a neat piece, reminds me of the stuff you saw in the 50's and 60's... the atomic generation  Are you going to apply this to a cabinet or something?
> 
> Corey


*Corey
Now I understand 
I was thinking that the design may be used on a small door or on a drawer front They may have to be modified to suit the various sizes of material that was to be used. It was just an idea or a challenge I set myself to see if it could be done. 
My apology to all, I should have put the word "Carving" in brackets as it seems that some members of the forum may be thinking I was suggesting I was competing with a wonderful $1990 dollar Carving machine. That was never the intention.
Thank for you interest comments and reply
Tom*


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

No worries Tom. Everyone understands that the challenge was to try and re-create the design using a router. This is not the first time there has been a misunderstanding of intent, I'm sure it wont be the last. It is our "uncommon" common language that causes it.


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## challagan (Feb 7, 2006)

Thanks Tom, either way it is possible to do either a line carving or a separate piece to be applied without the aid of a 2000. machine  With the line drawing or carving my first thought was a cabinet door carving as well. Funny thought, I could duplicate that drawing you say almost to a T I think with the milescraft jig as it just happens to have the patter for 3 different sized leaf like items like that . Really......whether it is 40mm or otherwise Tom, it is nice to get people to use templates and guides and that is something I am just starting to explore! Appreciate the posts and thoughts Tom.

Corey


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## challagan (Feb 7, 2006)

Holy snikey's Bob, that is some cool stuff. I don't think the wife will ever stand for me making that purchase! Hell, I haven't spent that kind of money on any one single tool and that price tag would probably buy me my table saw, router table, scroll saw and drill press all in one   I don't know though... while I can see it makes some cool stuff and you can do some custom stuff to sell and merchandize.... as a woodworker... I think I will focus on making the box or project itself the piece of art and I have a long ways to go on that endeavor  Heck I would just like to get a nice routed diamond inlaid with a contrasting wood and maybe some nice initial letters inlaid inside of that. I hope to accomplish that one before the year is done!! Maybe..... 

Corey


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## template tom (Sep 18, 2004)

bobj3 said:


> See the item below
> 
> Bj
> 
> ...


*Well Bob 
Even in your edited post you still have not answered the question put to you that was to explain what all the arrows were on the drawing. I am still at a loss as to what you were trying to say. I am sure Harry would be the same. Or maybe I am wrong.*

All I'm saying is it's not the same , If I ask you to carve a pine tree and you carved a elm tree,,, hummmmm ,it's not the same both are trees but not the same.

But you did a great job doing your tree. 

*All this jargon posted as an answer above has little to no relevance to the challenge that was posted. We were only working with a little piece of the tree whether it was Pine or an elm or my favourite Timber Jarrah.*

If I gave you a pattern and I ask you to copy it,,,,and you came back with one that was almost the same but not like the one I gave you.

*I did not give anyone a pattern and ask them to copy it, I gave everyone an opportunity to look at a new method of using the router without the need to spend $1990 on a carving machine. What I was trying to do is create a little more interest in the use of the router. Could it be done??? well the answer is yes in my opinion.  * 

Maybe we should ask Charles M. ( forum member ) to take the pattern you posted and put it in his new CarveWright machine and make one just to show how it should look when you use a real carve router to make it.

*Bob you are defeating the purpose of this posting. 
There is no doubt in my mind that Charles M could make one and do it much quicker than I can on his expensive machine. (Maybe not expensive to him as all he wants to do is carve, if that was all I wanted to do I would purchase one myself)
My idea for the posting was to stimulate some interest in using the tools we can afford. Just as a matter of interest, the machine was designed specifically for carving and not to complete all the other projects we can produce with other machinery. So really it also has its limitations.
I would emagine that most members of the forum are what I would call novices (It would be good to do a poll update to find out) and they are looking for new ideas on how to use the router. I have been working with wood for over 50 years I do not class myself as a novice. 
There are adequate posting in all forums regarding the use of the router table and any new member to the forum would think that was the only way to use the router because they have been guided by others who believe that is the only way to go.*

But you did a great job doing your tree. 

*Bob
I am not sure if this is a backhanded compliment, or not, as I am not sure if you are referring to your Pine or elm try or my attempt to create some interest in a new form of routing.*

It's a new age of routers and computers and it's only get better for the small wood shop. 
If you want to play you must step up to the pump so to speak just like the computers.

 Bob... Such fine encouraging words for any newcomer to routing if I interpret what you are saying. "If you do not have all the latest machinery you would best lay woodwork alone"

*I have tried to answer most postings relating to the questions submitted with written (Lately verbal since I was introduced to Skype) and photographic evidence of my answer and I do believe that is what we, so called "woodwork professionals" should do. There may be some need to refer others to the various websites but any new members are usually new to computing as well and find it daunting going from one site to another and in some instances it is only a 'For Sale' site and they are still in doubt as they do not get an answer to their question.

We should be prepared to reply to their questions if we can with the proper solutions if we have the answer. I do not consider I know all the answers as we are never too old to learn*

Enclosed is details of my woodworking background which may be of interest to those with specific questions to a problem. Might be a good idea to start a library with all the others who continually answer posts

[B]*Completed a Five year apprenticeship in Carpentry and Joinery
Attended teachers Training College for two years and qualified as a 'Technical Teacher'[/**B]
Taught in High schools for 30 Years woodwork metalwork and technical drawing. In that time I introduced photography into the system. 
Conducted a cabinet making Business for 15 years after resigning from the education department.
Came out of retirement to take a class of Blind people for one year how to do woodwork and introduce them to the router.
I have travelled round Australia giving demonstration at some of the various wood shows in each state. This was done over a period of ten years or more
I have produced some written work on the subject.

Example I Tried to reload "Introduction to Template guides" 

My apology for the long posting. I tried to be polite as possible as I did not want to offend anyone. With the experience I have listed above I object being told 'How to suck eggs'
Tom*


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Tom

I guess you told me,,,,,all I can say is we don't see eye to eye.



Bj 

Note *** I did remove the picture with the arrows.


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## challagan (Feb 7, 2006)

Bob & Tom...... hey that's the name of my favorite radio show  Guys, I would like to say I have 20 years plus of woodworking hobby experience. Given that, I would say that both of you have probably forgotten more about woodworking than I will ever know! I personally have learned sooooo much from both of you and that is not an exaggeration. You are both very valuable members of this forum and I expect other members would agree. 
I think it's important to recognize that there are many ways to do things in this sport  Many more than I was ever aware of. So.... can we agree that the two of you don't see eye to eye and let the other try to do his thing here without the constant back and forth. I don't see that as healthy for the community. I don't know that I will ever use the 40mm system that Tom teaches... but I enjoy learning about it. Bob, you have shown me much more that can be done with the router than I ever imagined.... truthfully! As I said before, let's not consider either way of doing this as superior over the other...but one of many ways to do it. The important thing is that we continue to explore the world of the router and what template/pattern routing has to offer, both 40mm and other. 
Just my opinion and I make these comments with the utmost respect for both of you, the forum moderators and the other members of this forum. 

Corey


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## template tom (Sep 18, 2004)

bobj3 said:


> Hi Tom
> 
> I guess you told me,,,,,all I can say is we don't see eye to eye.
> 
> ...


 Ok you did remove the picture but you still have not come up with the answer for the reasons for submitting it in the first place. It has not really been helpful to me or Harry. I openly accept constructive critizism (You just need to ask Harry) if it is going to assist in producing the article using a simple and an alternative method. I suppose I really was not interested in how a professional machine did the job as I was well aware of their availability on the market, not to mention the costing. My concern was to create some interest in routing to see if we could still achieve similar results with what we have. I suppose I was thinking someone like yourself Bob would put on your thinking cap and come up with a solution on how you may tackle the problem without just casting it off and saying that is the sort of work that should only be done on the Carving machine

If the truth be known I could produce other topics of discussion that would stimulate the brain to see how other topics could be achieved, which would add interest to the forum. But we have to approach it with an open mind and consider all alternative methods even though we do not always agree with the author. 
*"Keep on producing the projects with the material we have been using for years and we will still produce the same product"[/*COLOR] 

You yourself have said we must keep up with changes whether it is the computer field or in woodworking projects. All I ask is that you take off your blinkers and step outside the square and look closer at what I have submitted
Just as a final point on the matter If I had not introduced this technique to the woodworkclass at School for the blind the clients would have been doing the same old projects they had been doing for years. 
Tom


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Corey

Cool stuffffff

I know I want one so bad  BUT the same on this end, I would be in deep stuff if I did .
What I'm thinking of doing calling some mates and see if they want to go in on it with me, if we could all chip in 300.oo bucks or so we all could have one, so to speak, we could send the pattern via the email to the guy that has it in his shop ( ME  hahahahaha maybe )) and let him load it on the memory card and make it,or send the stock with the pattern via UPS ,many ways to do it I think.

Most of the mates are with in 5 miles or so but some are 500 miles away.
I could joint a wood club but I don't like most clubs.
To much BS with most of them.

It's one of the tools you would not use all the time once the new wares off.

But it sure would be nice to have one to use. 

But maybe this would be wanting is better than having in this case and we all have tools we want but just can't have right now but we all can dream what it would be like to have a great machine like the computer carvewright machine .....I offen wonder what the rich dream about like Bill Gates when you have all the money you want/need and you can buy just about anything you want then what..more money I guess  I see Norm on the TV and say it must be nice but then I say it may not be fun anymore for him, just a job and that's sad  well that's all for me right now I'm off the to shop to play with my routers and be happy with what I have     



Bj 




challagan said:


> Holy snikey's Bob, that is some cool stuff. I don't think the wife will ever stand for me making that purchase! Hell, I haven't spent that kind of money on any one single tool and that price tag would probably buy me my table saw, router table, scroll saw and drill press all in one  I don't know though... while I can see it makes some cool stuff and you can do some custom stuff to sell and merchandize.... as a woodworker... I think I will focus on making the box or project itself the piece of art and I have a long ways to go on that endeavor  Heck I would just like to get a nice routed diamond inlaid with a contrasting wood and maybe some nice initial letters inlaid inside of that. I hope to accomplish that one before the year is done!! Maybe.....
> 
> Corey


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## challagan (Feb 7, 2006)

Bj, I belong to another forum and one of the fellars purchased this unit. He is a professional wood worker and has produced some unbelievable detailed carvings to use on the furniture he produces. I just hope the unit is going to last.... that would be my concern... longevity. Will it still be working well in 5-10 years..no what I mean! 

Corey


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Corey

Yep I know what you mean, but I said the same thing about the SHopSmith I had 
I had it for years and then I sold it off because I got feed up with switching the tools around to use all the extra items that I had for it.
I know it's not the same but a router is a router but this one runs on a computer chip.

I think they will come up updates for it just like the computer but the tool is a router and I love routers 

Bj


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

*A "final" word on router carving*

Gentleman, regarding the rather robust discussion taking place regarding Template Tom's router carving, my understanding is that this forum is intended for hobby type woodworkers as distinct from professional woodworkers with workshops to match. From reading various posts it strikes me that many followers of this forum have difficulty in purchasing ONE router let alone a shed full of really expensive machine tools. Whilst I am fortunate in having a fairly well, but not lavishly equipped shed one must consider that I am 73 years of age and it has been built up over a very long period. It seems obvious to me that Tom was attempting to get some of the readers to become sufficiently interested to make an attempt at, or at least suggest possible ways of making a SIMILAR item to Toms. I, like Corey believe that it can be done with a single template which covers just one quarter of the pattern and rotate, flip it over then rotate again for the final quarter. I have made an attempt at making a template but I fear that a CAD type programme is required and just as importantly, someone who can use it! this excludes me so I shall have to wait for Tom to produce a drawing showing the centre-points. I hope that Tom hasn't given up and taken his ball with him. 
As an example of what I mean about a hobby situation, a friend of mine who turns tall vases asked me to make an extension for Forstner bits, 1/4" and 3.8" , photos attached. Now, this took me quite some time, I'm sure that a professional metal worker using my lathe would have made a better, faster job and a professional in a fully equipped machine shop in a fraction of the time with a perfect finish. I hope that I have got my point over. Cheers for now Harry


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## kp91 (Sep 10, 2004)

*A plethora of possibilities*

Ain't it awesome how many different ways there are to do the same thing? The discussion above reminds me of the "wars" that go on about power tool junkies and hand tool purists. Is a router cut dovetail joint appropriate for fine furniture? Are tools not made by XYZ company 'good enough' for quality work? Are plywood and other manmade products wood? etc.

As a guy who lusts after the latest and greatest tools, yet comes last on the food chain at home, I've had to 'make do' a lot when faced with challenges early on in woodworking because I simply didn't have the tools to do it 'the fast and efficient way.' So, a hand miter box and a shooting board worked (and still does best in some ways) until I got a miter saw. Circular saw and guides until I stepped up to a decent table saw. Paying a sawmill or driving to a buddy's house to get boards planed, etc... I'm sure we could all go on with similar examples. I still check the availability of previously loved woodworking and shop tools on Craigslist.com, Ebay, or the reconditioned tool outlets to squeeze the last bit out of my woodworking dollars.

One of the things I've always liked best about the Router Workshop series is the Keep it Simple, Stupid (KISS) mentality that Bob and Rick bring do routing. Simple fixtures and simple jigs can be amazingly efficient and acomplish a great deal of tasks. There are tons of plywood jig plans in shop reference books (free at the library too) that can teach you how to build a router mortise and tenon jig that looks a lot like the $300 and up ones that are the hot products today. 

The balancing point becomes when you factor in what you do in your shop, and how valuable your time is. Going a little slower with a Harbor Freight $30 half blind jig may work fine if you're doing one chest of drawers a year, but the PC Omni Jig might be worth the extra $300 if making drawers is how you feed your kids.

There is a fine series of threads on this forum about folks using the little trim routers to carve signs. If doing one is not time critical, that's probably the way I'd do it. If I was doing it for a living, a ShopBot CNC is the way to go, and I'd probably try to pick up a used one at that.

The best thing about this forum is the experience of it's members. I have seen aproaches to tasks that I've done MY way since day one that are much more efficient, and maybe even safer. (you know, the feeling you get when the lightbulb finally comes on.....) Is one more RIGHT than others, I don't know, does it even matter?

So, to wrap up, we can carve by hand, we can carve freehand with a router using an oversized clear base plate, we can use Tom's method, we can use a method like the CMT 3d router carver (picture attached), we can use a $1800 compucarver (I hadn't thought of timesharing it like Bob suggests....), or a $5000 CNC, or a $13000 laser engraver. Whichever fits your need and budget is the way to go.

(I guarantee that my shop is going to look A LOT different if I ever win the lottery......)

The more exposure we have to different ways of doing the same thing, no matter how crazy we may initially perceive them, the better we will become in our own shops.


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