# Phenolic Question



## CanuckGal (Nov 26, 2008)

I want to make a new insert for my Oak Park table and have been trying to find a phenolic supplier. So far McMaster Carr looks like the best place. They have several different grades of Phenolic, so what grade am I looking for for a table insert or base plate?


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## CanuckGal (Nov 26, 2008)

No suggestions? Hmmm


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Deb

The Black stuff 


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## CanuckGal (Nov 26, 2008)

They have 8 grades of Phenolic, most of which are available in black. I made an uneducated guess and picked one. Hope I guessed right.


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## crquack (Oct 10, 2008)

A related question: How do you manage to get McMaster-Carr to ship to Canada?


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## CanuckGal (Nov 26, 2008)

Their site states:


> Shipping methods
> 
> Ground: Most orders are delivered the same or next business day at standard ground rates if you are in the United States or much of Canada.


It's my first order from them. I can't find phenolic anywhere in Canada. I'll let you know how it works out.


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

Deb, Why did you not just buy from Oak-Park? As soon as it warms up and assuming I do not reinjure myself, I will be making base plates from Lexan that I think I obtained from Lee Valley. I need the thicker base plates for my Router Raizer.


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## CanuckGal (Nov 26, 2008)

I want to make a base plate that takes the circular plates/rings for different bit sizes. I have run into issues a couple of times with the OP plates the hole is either too big or too small. (I have both base plates from them with the large and small openings) Instead of messing up my OP plates I thought I'd try making one from scratch. It's cheaper (I hope) to buy some blank phenolic then to buy another OP plate.


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## xplorx4 (Dec 1, 2008)

Hey Deb what thickness are you using? I was wondering because I have a piece that is 2’x4’x1/4” ,give or take, and was thinking if using it to make a base plate for the Craftsman that I got in December.


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## gregW (Mar 14, 2007)

CanuckGal said:


> I want to make a new insert for my Oak Park table and have been trying to find a phenolic supplier. So far McMaster Carr looks like the best place. They have several different grades of Phenolic, so what grade am I looking for for a table insert or base plate?


It looks like the Garolite grade xx from McMaster should work for what you are trying to do ( save money ), otherwise it looks like the other grades that might be more suitable ( G10 ) would cost as much or more as a oak-park plate.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Deb

If that's all you want you can buy just the insert rings,,It's not a big job to open the hole on the bigger OP Plate, then you have one plate that will do it all..See levon post he has a link to the rings..and a picture of the rings..

But not all is a lost you can use the new stuff for a 8" sq.plate for hand plunge jobs.
But I would suggest a plate from HF for only 20 bucks,then pull the ring set out for the OP plate you now have and cut down the HF plate for the 8" sq.plate, all for 20.oo bucks plus shipping..and you can still use the rings in your 8" sq. plate.. 

- Harbor Freight Tools - Quality Tools at the Lowest Prices

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CanuckGal said:


> I want to make a base plate that takes the circular plates/rings for different bit sizes. I have run into issues a couple of times with the OP plates the hole is either too big or too small. (I have both base plates from them with the large and small openings) Instead of messing up my OP plates I thought I'd try making one from scratch. It's cheaper (I hope) to buy some blank phenolic then to buy another OP plate.


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## CanuckGal (Nov 26, 2008)

Jerry the piece I ordered is 12x12x1/4" . The opening in the OP table is 11x11x1/4" so I will have to do a little cutting to get it to fit. 

Greg I did order the XX grade. Price was the deciding factor. If it works out to be no good for a plate it says it's makes good template material 

Bob this will be my first time working with phenolic, and usually things don't go right for me the first time. That was why I didn't want to ruin one of my OP plates. I have seen the post you mentioned, I may even have it bookmarked and I will be looking for it as it was the inspiration for this project. That and a piece of wood taking a nosedive into the OP plate large opening as I was trying to rout it with a drawer lock bit. That was a wake up call!


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## Mike Wingate (Apr 26, 2009)

You lot over the pond are really spoilt for choice. There are no suppliers of materials like that in the U.K.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Deb


All I can say is think scroll saw and a drum sander 
http://www.routerforums.com/attachments/jigs-fixtures/5709d1180652584-small-router-table-6729.jpg
http://www.routerforums.com/attachments/jigs-fixtures/5711d1180652584-small-router-table-6731.jpg

The big OP plate with the big hole is almost useless the way it is.  too big and to small all at the same time.. 

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CanuckGal said:


> Jerry the piece I ordered is 12x12x1/4" . The opening in the OP table is 11x11x1/4" so I will have to do a little cutting to get it to fit.
> 
> Greg I did order the XX grade. Price was the deciding factor. If it works out to be no good for a plate it says it's makes good template material
> 
> Bob this will be my first time working with phenolic, and usually things don't go right for me the first time. That was why I didn't want to ruin one of my OP plates. I have seen the post you mentioned, I may even have it bookmarked and I will be looking for it as it was the inspiration for this project. That and a piece of wood taking a nosedive into the OP plate large opening as I was trying to rout it with a drawer lock bit. That was a wake up call!


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

CanuckGal said:


> I want to make a new insert for my Oak Park table and have been trying to find a phenolic supplier. So far McMaster Carr looks like the best place. They have several different grades of Phenolic, so what grade am I looking for for a table insert or base plate?


Hi Deb:

Sorry I didn't pick up on this earlier. I've got a bunch of different plastics > 1/4" and I'm going to try them all. As long as it remains flat, almost anything will do. My first test is to plock a router on the piece suspended between two blocks of wood. If it deflects, on to the next one, if not, it's fair game.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

CanuckGal said:


> Their site states:
> 
> 
> It's my first order from them. I can't find phenolic anywhere in Canada. I'll let you know how it works out.


Hi Deb:

Phenolic is a category of plastic. Any plastics shop will have a member/equivalent of the family. Most any brand name of styrene will work too. Polypropylene will be too flexible I think.


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## CanuckGal (Nov 26, 2008)

Looks like I'll have to find something else, or order another OP plate:



> Thank you for your order. Unfortunately, due to the ever increasing complexity of United States export regulations, McMaster-Carr will only process orders from a few long-established customers in Canada. We sincerely regret any inconvenience this causes you.


I am sure there must be Canadian Suppliers. With the proclivity of the Internet I am amazed how hard it is still to find things these days.


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## Hamlin (Dec 25, 2005)

Hi Deb,

When working with the phenolic, make sure you wear a respirator. The dust and the odor produced, it's nasty and not good to inhale. I enlarged the opening on my second "big hole" OP plate and discovered this quickly. 

I have to ask, why not go with 1/4" plexi? It's just as good as phenolic.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

eBay Seller: hikerj99: Business Industrial items on eBay.com

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CanuckGal said:


> Looks like I'll have to find something else, or order another OP plate:
> 
> 
> 
> I am sure there must be Canadian Suppliers. With the proclivity of the Internet I am amazed how hard it is still to find things these days.


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## fasttruck860 (Feb 18, 2008)

Give Amazon a try they might have something for you.


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## CanuckGal (Nov 26, 2008)

Ken I don't think the plexi is as ridgid as the phenolic and it might flex. But I have easy access to plexi and can give it a try. 

Bob I don't think that seller ships to Canada either, and he has nothing in 1/4" thickness. But thanks, I never though of Ebay.

Amazon is another one that has several restricitions about shipping to Canada including it's phenoloc products it seems.

Maybe it's illegal in Canada? Guess I need to find the Canadian Phenolic black market...LOL.


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## gregW (Mar 14, 2007)

Deb,

I think you can get the phenolic sheet from Lee Valley in Canada:

UHMW & Phenolic Sheets - Lee Valley Tools

1/4" Phenolic - 16" x 24"( Item # 46J90.20 )

If they're local at least you can check it out before you buy it, and it's a big enough sheet to make two inserts.


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## CanuckGal (Nov 26, 2008)

Greg just under the description on that page you will see it says:


> The 1/4" Phenolic is no longer available.


.
Why they still have it on the page I don't know.


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## garybaritone (Feb 21, 2009)

*phenolic education and possible supplier to Canada*

There are many grades and types of phenolics. The trade name commonly used for phenolic sheet is Micarta (like countertop material is commonly called Formica). Some of the common grades are as follows.

XX - is phenolic impregnated paper
CE - is phenolic impregnated canvas
LE - is phenolic impregnated linen
all of the above are machinable with woodworking tools although they are tough but strong.

Greg mentioned G-10 in a post earlier today.

This is a glass mat impregnated with epoxy resin. It is extremely tough and can destroy a carbide table saw blade in short order.

I have machined many parts from all of the above materials. When quoting a job from G-10, I assume I will have to replace my table saw blade and add that to the price of the job. I generally have been able to cut 1/4" G-10 sheet with a table saw but once I had a job from 1/2" thick G-10 and destroyed a carbide table saw blade after cutting about 6 inches. I had to send the material out to be cut with a waterjet.

As far as getting material in Canada, you may try smallparts.com. It is an American company but indicates they do work to ship internationally. They have many useful items (including phenolic sheet). I purchased some bronze bushings from them and received my items in a couple of days.


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## CanuckGal (Nov 26, 2008)

Thanks Gary, I'll give them a try on Monday. 
Now I am off to get ready for work. Thanks for everyone's help! The saga will continue next week


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## crquack (Oct 10, 2008)

You got the same response from McM-C. Amazon.com will not ship anything except books to Canada. And very expensively at that! HF, BTW, do not ship to Canada either AFAIK.

Do you think 1/4" phenolic will be thick enough particularly if the plate is going to be largish? Have you considered aluminium? I know opinions are divided on that one here...

Do you have a sign shop in your location? They deal with a variety of plastics. I have been to my local one here (I am doing the same as you ) and they gave me a tip for a Vancouver-based plastics supplier. I have not followed up yet but when I do I shall let you know if it is useful.


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## jlord (Nov 16, 2009)

I would favor 3/8" thickness for phenolic or any kind of plastic. 1/4" for an aluminum plate.


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## gregW (Mar 14, 2007)

garybaritone said:


> Greg mentioned G-10 in a post earlier today.
> 
> This is a glass mat impregnated with epoxy resin. It is extremely tough and can destroy a carbide table saw blade in short order.
> 
> I have machined many parts from all of the above materials. When quoting a job from G-10, I assume I will have to replace my table saw blade and add that to the price of the job. I generally have been able to cut 1/4" G-10 sheet with a table saw but once I had a job from 1/2" thick G-10 and destroyed a carbide table saw blade after cutting about 6 inches. I had to send the material out to be cut with a waterjet.


Gary,
a diamond blade cuts 1/2" thick G10 fairly easily and is cheaper than a good carbide blade...but if I had a lot of it to cut sending it out would definitely be the best option just to avoid dealing with the dust and glass particles!


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## George II (Nov 8, 2007)

I'm with Whittier James..I would do 3/8 Lexan or Plexiglas...micarta is almost as bad dust wise as MDF when working it..
Just my opinion..
George Cole
"Regulae Stultis Sunt"


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

Don't let it get you down, Deb... I run into the same thing in Alaska... even though UPS, FedEx and USPS all deliver here in every form (ground, air, etc.). I've had people say "we don't ship outside the US" and stick by it.... and "We don't ship outside the Continental US". I just can't resist replying with "I'm on the North American continent. What continent (or planet) are you on?" 



CanuckGal said:


> Ken I don't think the plexi is as ridgid as the phenolic and it might flex. But I have easy access to plexi and can give it a try.
> 
> Bob I don't think that seller ships to Canada either, and he has nothing in 1/4" thickness. But thanks, I never though of Ebay.
> 
> ...


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## Hamlin (Dec 25, 2005)

Hi Deb,

Have you looked into using "acrylic"? Or perhaps it's called "Lexan", I haven't kept up with it. This is by far stronger than plexi and will route/cut the same. It may be just another option for you. Otherwise, you may have to do as Bj suggested, alter or modify an OP plate.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

CanuckGal said:


> Looks like I'll have to find something else, or order another OP plate:
> 
> I am sure there must be Canadian Suppliers. With the proclivity of the Internet I am amazed how hard it is still to find things these days.


There's a plastics shop on Augusta in Hamilton. They carry a variety of brand names of different solid plastics. Take a look at their yellow pages ad and look for something similar in your neighbourhood.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

BigJimAK said:


> Don't let it get you down, Deb... I run into the same thing in Alaska... even though UPS, FedEx and USPS all deliver here in every form (ground, air, etc.). I've had people say "we don't ship outside the US" and stick by it.... and "We don't ship outside the Continental US". I just can't resist replying with "I'm on the North American continent. What continent (or planet) are you on?"


Jim:

It doesn't surprise me. I've visited Buffalo and spoken with people who had never been outside Buffalo for their entire lives. Fort Erie Ont. is closer to downtown Buffalo NY than the Buffalo airport yet there are people who have looked over the river all their lives and never crossed the bridge.


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

Ron, I was 31 when I first set foot outside the lower 48 of the U.S. I have looked across a river into Canada and across another river into Mexico but never set foot there. One of my Grandmothers had only been to one other state, 30 miles away, her entire life. 

Jim, I am with you on your point. Any place on the North American continent should be within shipping range of a U.S. or Canadian company. I had a wheelchair carrier for my car held up for weeks by U.S. customs in Oct./Nov. 2001. My car was German built and the dealer was able to track it from Germany up the Mississippi river to the dealership.


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## crquack (Oct 10, 2008)

OK, here is a possible solution:

Proveer formerly East West Plastic | Sign Supplies

It's worth looking at their jazzy catalog at least. I am not sure that anything they sell is going to be useful to you (the 12mm lexan has possibilities, as does the aluminium). The other problem might be the minimum quantities they are prepared to sell.

I was thinking some of their stuff might be useful for templates.

I have not contacted them and will not be doing so for some time due to other priorities, so if you are successful with them let me know.


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

Hamlin said:


> Hi Deb,
> 
> Have you looked into using "acrylic"? Or perhaps it's called "Lexan", I haven't kept up with it. This is by far stronger than plexi and will route/cut the same. It may be just another option for you. Otherwise, you may have to do as Bj suggested, alter or modify an OP plate.


Ken, acrylic is polyacrylic a.k.a. plexiglass; Lexan is a trade name for polycarbonate. Lexan is very strong mechanically; much more so than acrylic. The U. S NASCAR racing cars use Lexan windows. Where Lexan fails is chemical resistance; chloroform can weaken it and even dissolve it. Lexan is only slightly less strong than phenolics. Lexan can be worked with by using O-flute router bits at low (for a router) speed. Non-O-flute router bits also work but the risk of melting is greater.

Lexan should make excellent router baseplates.


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## jschaben (Jun 21, 2009)

mftha said:


> Ken, acrylic is polyacrylic a.k.a. plexiglass; Lexan is a trade name for polycarbonate. Lexan is very strong mechanically; much more so than acrylic. The U. S NASCAR racing cars use Lexan windows. Where Lexan fails is chemical resistance; chloroform can weaken it and even dissolve it. Lexan is only slightly less strong than phenolics. Lexan can be worked with by using O-flute router bits at low (for a router) speed. Non-O-flute router bits also work but the risk of melting is greater.
> 
> Lexan should make excellent router baseplates.


Hi Tom
Any information on the rigidity of lexan vs acrylic, ie, does one have a tendency to deflect or bend easier than the other?
I have worked lexan with some degree of success with flush cutters and circle cutters. Tried a hole saw once with some degree of disaster:sarcastic:


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Mike Wingate said:


> You lot over the pond are really spoilt for choice. There are no suppliers of materials like that in the U.K.


Hi Mike:

Ok, I live in Quebec, Canada. Here, we have a different culture, different language, different laws and different terms for just about everything. I can get most of what others' can in English Canada/US. I have stuff available here that most of North America can't get, especially plumbing fixtures.

My last visit to England astounded me with the selection of goods available. I visited Selfridges in London and that was a real eye-opener. UK/Europe is no backwater. Your problem is you've got to find who has what. I daresay everything is available to you, you just have to find it. Somehow I can't believe that you don't have access to plastics. Brits have too long a history of tinkering to put up with such a void.


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

jschaben said:


> Hi Tom
> Any information on the rigidity of lexan vs acrylic, ie, does one have a tendency to deflect or bend easier than the other?
> I have worked lexan with some degree of success with flush cutters and circle cutters. Tried a hole saw once with some degree of disaster:sarcastic:



Hi John, 
Lexan is very rigid, much more so than acrylic. Thanks for pointing out the critical factor I neglected to mention.


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## garybaritone (Feb 21, 2009)

*Another Canada Supplier*

It appears professionalplastics.com also supplies to Canada (and the rest of the world). Website shows use of credit cards and sales offices throughout the world. Only drawback may be quantity issues. It appears they only sell in relatively large and full sheet quantities.


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## RStaron (Sep 25, 2009)

I buy my plastics from usplastic.com. No minimum order, very reasonable priced, usually quick shipment. They have Lexan ( polycarbonate ) in many thicknesses and sizes.


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## CanuckGal (Nov 26, 2008)

Thanks for all the suggestions, I'm still looking


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## crquack (Oct 10, 2008)

Busy Bee rules!

Busy Bee Tools Product Detail

On sale. Can you go wrong with that?


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## CanuckGal (Nov 26, 2008)

CR it would be perfect, BUT it's the wrong dimensions. I need a piece that's 11X11X1/4 inches. I saw this insert before and I have considered making a new top for my Oak Park table that would accomodate it. The table top is only attached with dowels so it would not be hard to swap it out. HMMM... now it's got me considering it again. Might be easier AND cheaper in the long run  Thanks for the reminder!


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi

Still pushing you 


Replacement Rings & Guide Pin
#9330 ....................................SALE $10.95 

"Our 1/4" thick" opening sizes (3-1/4", 1-7/16", 1-3/16" for template guides and a blank insert ring to create your own size). "

Router accessories

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## CanuckGal (Nov 26, 2008)

I know Bj... I Know


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## crquack (Oct 10, 2008)

> HMMM... now it's got me considering it again. Might be easier AND cheaper in the long run Thanks for the reminder!


Same problem here: I got the Lee Valley circular plate with 1.5" hole. I am trying to put a fancy edge on a 1.5" thick piece of wood. Most of the bits tall enough are a bigger diameter than that. So the option is to blow $42.50 on another plate and roger it by enlarging the hole *and* having to change plates (but retain the table top) or just make another table top for the spare DeWalt base.

In my case the additional issue is that my original table design is supported by my mitre saw table. This means that I can either use the saw or the router but not both. A real pain as it turns out!

I just downloaded a podcast which promises to explain how to achieve a fancy edge using simple small beading bits. Maybe I can get around it that way...


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