# Equilateral triangle as a box - need some guidance



## JFPNCM (Dec 13, 2009)

I searched the forum on this project but was not able to find any examples. if there are, then please redirect me accordingly. 

SWMBO has requested a triangular (equilateral) shaped box which should not be a problem. However, she did not like the exposed "end grain" at the corners in the first model I built. So, I'm seeking guidance on laying put the cuts to avoid the end grain.

For the model I used a 3/4 x 10 x 10 inch piece of scrap fir as follows:

1) Set the TS blade to 30 degrees and ripped one edge of the piece. I then flipped the board over to rip the 2nd edge on the opposite side of the piece. As a result the 2 angles are opposites. 

2) Ripped the board into 3 strips each 3" wide.

3) The result was a very nice equilateral triangle except for the end grain.

Perhaps I shouldn't have flipped the board over prior to making the second rip but that seemed logical at the time to make a 60 degree angle for the joint.

Suggestions will be appreciated.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

each cut @ 30°...
face the end grain...

no flipping pieces over...
rotate them 180° end for end to make the end cuts...


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## JFPNCM (Dec 13, 2009)

Stick486 said:


> each cut @ 30°...
> face the end grain...
> 
> no flipping pieces over...
> rotate them 180° end for end to make the end cuts...


Got it, thanks. Thought that might have been the error. Now if I could just figure out why I thought "flipping" the piece was in order. :grin:


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

JFPNCM said:


> Got it, thanks. Thought that might have been the error. Now if I could just figure out why I thought "flipping" the piece was in order. :grin:


somebuddy around here says there is a senior moment afoot...
and from what I gather it's the senior moment's fault...

so be on the look out...


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

Jon, look up some posts on flag cases.. They may give you some idea, especially the ones by Xplorx4...


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

JFPNCM said:


> Got it, thanks. Thought that might have been the error. Now if I could just figure out why I thought "flipping" the piece was in order. :grin:


It's called P.A.Y.S. - Pre-programmed Advanced Youth Syndrome...

It's going around...


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Nickp said:


> It's called P.A.Y.S. - Prue-programmed Advanced Youth Syndrome...
> 
> It's going around...


what happened to CRAFTS???...
(Can't Remember A Farthing Thing Syndrome)...


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## DonkeyHody (Jan 22, 2015)

JFPNCM said:


> Got it, thanks. Thought that might have been the error. Now if I could just figure out why I thought "flipping" the piece was in order. :grin:


I've been doing this for a while. I'm an engineer, so I'm "supposed" to have some intuitive understanding of spatial relationships. But I've made just about every mistake there is to be made when dealing with angled cuts. I'll even have it all drawn up in 3-D, but when I get to the tablesaw, I tend to lose track of "up" and "down" It gets some better with experience, but I think I'll quit making such mistakes when I'm looking up at the grass.


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## neville9999 (Jul 22, 2010)

Actually I am making something very much like this right now, to be honest I am making 50 of them as I never make one of anything, I will post the results later. N


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## JFPNCM (Dec 13, 2009)

Gentlemen:

I appreciate the input and definitely enjoyed the humor as well. 

Unfortunately, I am still at a loss as to how to avoid the end grain showing on the corners. I followed Stick's instructions and when I assemble the model I still have end grain. Clearly I'm missing a step here.

The flag boxes are great, thank you for the suggestion James and I may well end up going that route.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

JFPNCM said:


> Gentlemen:
> 
> I appreciate the input and definitely enjoyed the humor as well.
> 
> ...


keep in mind the angles on a flag box are one 90° corner and two 45° corners...
you will have to mating 45's and four mating 22.5° cuts...

which way does your TS blade tip???
to the right or left???
miter to the left or right of the blade???


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## JFPNCM (Dec 13, 2009)

Stick486 said:


> keep in mind the angles on a flag box are one 90° corner and two 45° corners...
> you will have to mating 45's and four mating 22.5° cuts...
> 
> which way does your TS blade tip???
> ...


Stick: Appreciate the support here. 

Understand the angle differences for the flag box, thanks. 

TS tilts left. 

I can miter from either side but would do so from the right if the blade is tilted to avoid trapping under the blade.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

JFPNCM said:


> Stick: Appreciate the support here.
> 
> Understand the angle differences for the flag box, thanks.
> 
> ...


several ways...

*simple...*

cut three blocks about ½'' longer than needed w/ the TS set to 90°...
calibrate your miter gage at this time... accuracy matters...
set the TS to 30°... I use a 30/60 drafting triangle to get the setting dead nut...
cross cut one end of each block at 30° w/ the board flat on the table......
attach a lead block to your fence and set the fence to the length you want the sides of the box to be...
*remember to allow for the lead block...*
set the angled cut *(LP/long face up)* to the fence and angle cut the second edge...

length of sides being the same exact length and your angle being dead nut matters a great deal...

now...
never flip over any pieces always rotate 180°...
each cut piece will have an ''SP'' (short point) and a ''LP'' (long point)...
one face of a cut piece will be longer than it's opposite face.. hence the LP/SP reference...



assemble the box by joining the cut angles to each other...


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

JFPNCM said:


> Stick: Appreciate the support here.
> 
> Understand the angle differences for the flag box, thanks.
> 
> ...


when you get ''simple'' mastered we'll move on to ''advanced''....


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## DonkeyHody (Jan 22, 2015)

JFPNCM said:


> I searched the forum on this project but was not able to find any examples. if there are, then please redirect me accordingly.
> 
> SWMBO has requested a triangular (equilateral) shaped box which should not be a problem. However, she did not like the exposed "end grain" at the corners in the first model I built. So, I'm seeking guidance on laying put the cuts to avoid the end grain.
> 
> ...


If I understand you correctly, you have a box like the one on the left, and you want a box like the one on the right. 

The problem at hand is that the miter cut required to make the box on the right is a 60 degree cut (according to the gauge on your saw), and your saw will only tilt to 45 degrees. You can make the cut by tilting the blade to 30 degrees and then standing the board vertically against the fence. You will have much better success if you build a jig to accomplish holding the workpiece perfectly vertical and steady with clamps as you pass it across the blade. I built a jig that straddles the fence to do these cuts. You can also buy such a jig that runs in the miter slots I think.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

DonkeyHody said:


> If I understand you correctly, you have a box like the one on the left, and you want a box like the one on the right.
> 
> The problem at hand is that the miter cut required to make the box on the right is a 60 degree cut (according to the gauge on your saw), and your saw will only tilt to 45 degrees. You can make the cut by tilting the blade to 30 degrees and then standing the board vertically against the fence. You will have much better success if you build a jig to accomplish holding the workpiece perfectly vertical and steady with clamps as you pass it across the blade. I built a jig that straddles the fence to do these cuts. You can also buy such a jig that runs in the miter slots I think.


thanks for the correction Andy.....
Sorry about the bad information Jon...


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## woodknots (Mar 7, 2012)

I'll offer another suggestion. No need to build a jig or stand the piece on end.

All three pieces are identical and all six ends require a 30 degree miter. You don't make a 60 degree cut, as two pieces cut at 30 degrees will form a 60 degree angle when joined together.

Assuming your blade tilts to the right, as viewed from the operator position (I never know the difference between a left-tilt and right-tilt)
With a miter gauge and a stop: tilt the blade to 30 degrees
with your gauge set to the left of the blade, and your workpiece set against the stop (on the left), cut one end
rotate the piece end for end (no flipping) cut the second end
do the same for the other two pieces
you've now got three pieces forming three 60 degree angles, no end grain showing

Vince

Edit: I just re-read Jon's post and see your blade tilts to the left. So, run your miter gauge in the slot to the right of the blade


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## DonkeyHody (Jan 22, 2015)

vchiarelli said:


> I'll offer another suggestion. No need to build a jig or stand the piece on end.
> 
> All three pieces are identical and all six ends require a 30 degree miter. You don't make a 60 degree cut, as two pieces cut at 30 degrees will form a 60 degree angle when joined together.
> 
> ...


Uh . . .Vince, remember that when the Tablesaw blade is set to Zero, you are actually making a cut 90 Degrees to the face that's on the table. So, a 30 Degree cut (according to the Tablesaw Gauge) is actually 90-30=60 relative to the face on the table. The method you describe will make a hexagon, but you can't make an equilateral triangle that way. Please see the diagram.


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

Miter saw may be the answer...you will need to make a 30* wedge-shaped piece to offset the blade by 30* when saw is set to 30*...

Take a corner of a piece of plywood and cut it to make a long enough wedge shape...12" on the hypotenuse...at 30*...
Set miter saw to 30*
Lay the wedge against fence of miter saw 
Set your piece against the hypotenuse on edge making sure it is square to the table
Cut carefully...

This will fool the saw into thinking it's cutting a 60* angle but the 30* wedge shape will allow your piece to be cut at 30*...

You can use any combination of wedge angle and saw setting as long as it adds up to 60...


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Now I'm confused?! If you bisect the 60Deg. angle at each corner, as shown in Stick's drawing, you'd have an a acute 30Deg. cut face opposing a mirrored angle on the next piece. There _is_ no end grain; am I missing something?
OK, I went back and reread the OP..."Set the _TS blade to 30 degrees_ and ripped one edge of the piece." And there's the problem. The cut needs to be 60Deg. 90Deg minus 60Deg = *30Deg angled cut*
Now you just have to figure a way to make that cut. If you had a tall fence precisely vertical to the table, then set the blade for 30Deg. off the vertical. That should do it.


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## DonkeyHody (Jan 22, 2015)

Nickp said:


> Miter saw may be the answer...you will need to make a 30* wedge-shaped piece to offset the blade by 30* when saw is set to 30*...
> 
> Take a corner of a piece of plywood and cut it to make a long enough wedge shape...12" on the hypotenuse...at 30*...
> Set miter saw to 30*
> ...


That will work too. Main thing is to realize that the miter angle will be VERY acute. It's 30 degrees relative to the face of the board instead of 30 degrees departure from the normal 90 degrees cutting angle. No saw in my shop will cut it unless I hold the workpiece at some angle other than its normal orientation. Knowing what angle you need is half the battle in figuring out how to get there. I usually have to draw it up to be sure. That "zero is really 90 degrees" thing on both the tablesaw and the miter saw confuses me too.


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## vindaloo (May 30, 2009)

I think I'd do something like this.


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## DonkeyHody (Jan 22, 2015)

vindaloo said:


> I think I'd do something like this.


Exactly! Thanks for drawing that up. It would have taken me hours to draw it, and it still wouldn't be that good.


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

There was a post some time ago about using a chop saw and an angled board to make the cut....


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## JFPNCM (Dec 13, 2009)

Stick486 said:


> thanks for the correction Andy.....
> Sorry about the bad information Jon...


No worries Stick. :yes4:


Still working my way through this so please keep watching this space.


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## JFPNCM (Dec 13, 2009)

Thank you one and all for the detailed discussion. I am still working on this and will advise as progress is made.


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## JFPNCM (Dec 13, 2009)

vindaloo said:


> I think I'd do something like this.


I used this approach on a piece of pine scrap and the results were excellent as seen in the attached. Now on to the project. I'll post the finished project another day.

Thanks again to one and all for the discussion. That's what makes this forum such a great site! :yes4:


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## DonkeyHody (Jan 22, 2015)

JFPNCM said:


> I used this approach on a piece of pine scrap and the results were excellent as seen in the attached. Now on to the project. I'll post the finished project another day.
> 
> Thanks again to one and all for the discussion. That's what makes this forum such a great site! :yes4:


There y'a go! "None of us is a smart as all of us."


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## woodknots (Mar 7, 2012)

Andy:
Correct - I had my offsets confused in relation to the blade/table face. I stand corrected.
The workpiece held vertical is the way to go as demonstrated by the attachment further along in this thread.

Two brains are better than one - sometimes mine outraces me.

Vince


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## DonkeyHody (Jan 22, 2015)

vchiarelli said:


> Andy:
> Correct - I had my offsets confused in relation to the blade/table face. I stand corrected.
> The workpiece held vertical is the way to go as demonstrated by the attachment further along in this thread.
> 
> ...


You're certainly not the first or the last to make that mistake. I was thinking the same thing until I started drawing it up. Then I realized what was happening. That whole "zero is really 90 degrees" thing messes me up too often.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

vchiarelli said:


> Two brains are better than one - *sometimes mine outraces me.
> *
> Vince


...


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## woodknots (Mar 7, 2012)

Stick486 said:


> ...


Stick;

There's quite a few times when my train of thought can't even find the station.:surprise:


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

it just occurred to me...
since accuracy matters... look to a tenon jig for these cuts...
there a bazillion plans out there for them if you wish to make your own...


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## JFPNCM (Dec 13, 2009)

Stick486 said:


> it just occurred to me...
> since accuracy matters... look to a tenon jig for these cuts...
> there a bazillion plans out there for them if you wish to make your own...


Excellent idea Stick. 

I used an old push block set up I originally built for the router table but the tenon jig would be a definite improvement. 

Thanks again.


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## neville9999 (Jul 22, 2010)

A 'true miter' is like a picture frame, you cut your cuts at 45degs and when you join them up then you get a right angle corner, join 4 pieces that way and you get a frame, the pieces can be cut all four the same length and you get a square frame, if you want a rectangular frame then use four pieces where two are shorter than the other two but each pair is the same length. Not all miters are 'true miters' and not all frames need four pieces. you can make a frame like a rhombus, and it can also be square or a rectangular rhombus, the thing is with these odd shapes then the miters cannot be cut at 45degs, you have to set out the joins and then bisect the cut, this works with any odd angle, with these cuts then they are not 45 degs but they are the exact angle of the bisected join, a Triangle is also a frame, one made up from three sides, were it an isosceles triangle then you have two sides the same and one shorter one, these joins are not 60degs, imagine one where it stand very tall and is very short on the short side, or it could be a squat isosceles triangle where the one side is the long one, all these joins can be done with a mitered join but the angle of the cut is not half of 60degs, the joins are odd angles so you must bisect the angle to get the joins cut angle, your box is an equilateral triangle, just like the one drawn by Stick, all three sides are the same length so the joins are cut at half of 60degs, they meet at a point on the outside so you do not see any end grain. Making these joins is not easy as you need a very clean cut, you can do that with a saw sled and use a blade with many teeth, I have a saw blade with 120 teeth and I use that for these very fine cuts, a picture frame maker would also do this or they will have a miter guillotine, one where they can set the angle the way they want and as the cut is done guillotine style and then the cut is very clean, so the join is very clean, I also have a shooting board and you can see it on my post 'My Favorite tool' so you use a shooting plane like a guillotine, you can make one and use a normal plane with a razor sharp blade but the clean up cuts are done guillotine style and these clean edges join very closely, far better than they will join straight off a saw blade, even a blade with 120 teeth will have some roughness where the end grain meets. Sticks drawing is an equilateral triangle and all three sides are the same length, all internal angles are the same, they are 60degs and this is also like a flag box, it is also like my project, the thing is that the corners are joined with miters that are cut at 30degs to join at 60degs, done this way then there is no end grain, the quality of the join will be as good as you can do the joins cuts, better if it is shot with a plane, Cabinetmaking is fun, the better you are then the better work you can do. N


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## JFPNCM (Dec 13, 2009)

*I finally finished it*

With a "little help from my friends" as the old song goes, I have finally completed the equilateral triangle box that started this thread. Thank you one and all for the assistance! :grin:

The box sides were once again drawn from the cut off bin and assembled as in previous posts. Fortunately, the bin is now down to the nubs so it will be awhile before I can bore you with this mishmash again. 

The finish is standard Butcher block oil. The last photo shows the bottom of the box as SWMBO didn't want a lid on this one. The bottom is Philippine Mahogany and Maple.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

skills running rampant...
nice job...


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## JFPNCM (Dec 13, 2009)

Stick486 said:


> skills running rampant...
> nice job...


Thanks, Stick. It was a fun one once the collective "we" figured out how to cut the angles.


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