# Table saw extension input



## wagspe208 (Jan 26, 2019)

So, I have my grandpas 113.27520 table saw. From the 50's or 60's. I also have his craftsman/ king seeley 103.20660 jointer. It is from the 50's also... I like old stuff. It was family. It was built to last. I went through the jointer, installed a shelix head, it is awesome! Looks better than new. Cuts great. Straight as an arrow.
OK... the table saw was in good shape, just needed a tuneup and a fence. The old fences sucked. So, I checked blade runout, good, aligned blade, installed a forrest blade, and bought a vega pro 40 fence. On that fence, I installed the jessem clear cut stock guides. The rollers are awesome. They mount on a T track, so they are adjustable (as you all know). 

To the point. The saw has one 10" extension. (mounted on the right side) I am planning on putting another 10" extension on the left side. If I add a 16" ish router table to the existing 10", that puts me near the end of my vega pro 40. The table is plenty big for my needs. I have made a rigid steel frame on wheels the saw is mounted on. So, the extensions will be supported with adjustable rods (jacks if you wish) to keep the table level, and support the weight. 
So, I'd have a 10" extension on the left side, the main table, 10" extension on the right side, then my router table.

Question is... I really only want the table. I don't want a fence. The vega fence is straight. I can put a sacrificial strip on it if I am doing something requiring that. The jessem rollers could be slid off the track, turned 180*, then they roll the right way to feed the router. (does that make sense? just slide them off the T track, rotate, then go). If, in the future, I think I need a more "fancy fence". I can always buy one. The fences with most tables are basic, and fair at best.
I have a triton router, so I do not need a router lift either. 
I am contemplating a table with only the insert ring. The other option is a regular table cut out for the lift plate, and spending another 70 to 100 for a plate, or make my own. 
I was on the fence between the saw stop table only at 264 ish, or the bench dog table. Then I saw the grizzly with no insert plate, only the cutter insert.
The saw stop is 265, (16 x 27") then I need to buy or make an insert plate. Free shipping
The bench dog (16x27) is 349, fence no plate, or 369, fence and plate. I didn't see an option for table only, nothing else. PLUS rockler will charge me another 20 shipping... even if I ship to store... that just aggravates me. They have a truck show u[ every damn week or so. 
The grizzly has only an insert ring, 18"x27", no fence. It is 328 with free shipping. This seems like the most reasonable option for me. The sawstop will be 365 with plate... or more. The rockler is at the same 360+. 
So, what do you think? I am not worried about having to drill holes to match up stuff. I am a metal guy.. so no big deal. 
My only concern is future needs. IF I buy the grizzly, and down the road I think I need a lift instead of the triton adjustment, another table would be the only option. 
I am just an occasional hack. I like metal/ welding/ machining more.. but wood is fun, can make some pretty cool stuff with metal/ wood accents or vice versa. I am not a cabinet maker... 
(Oh, btw... I bought a used summerfeld table locally, it was a good price, but I did not think I was going to like it because it was aluminum, and a few other reasons). I don't like it. Not what I wanted. Not that it is a bad piece... just not what I really want. I like old, heavy, cast iron, etc.
Thanks
Wags


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

There are a number of drawbacks to adding a router into a saw's extension table. Unless you are desperately short of room most of us will tell you don't do it. First is that you can get busy with a routing project and realize that you need to cut some wood with the saw and the router will be in the way. But the router is set to do a job and you don't want to have to reset fence or height. That's an aggravation that tends to take some the fun out of woodworking. Second is that the fence on a router table has to have a cut out in it because most of the bit is usually behind the face of the fence. That means you'll need to add something to your saw fence on that side to accommodate that. Third is that you must feed wood from right to left on a router table and you don't want to be reaching over the bit on either side so the only location where you can do that is at the end of the extension. If you have the room build a separate table or go for a table top model. I have one of each as I find I prefer the table top one for doing small pieces. The bench top model is another 16" or so taller which makes that work more comfortable.

The only real advantage of a lift over a router with above table adjustment is that the lift will lock in position by itself and you will have to reach under the table to lock a router so if that's going to be a problem then you need a lift. Jessem makes good lifts that start at $189. https://www.amazon.com/s?k=jessem+r...G0&sprefix=jessem+,aps,263&ref=nb_sb_ss_i_3_7


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

> you have the room build a separate table or go for a table top model.



here's a couple of models..

.


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## wagspe208 (Jan 26, 2019)

Room is not the real problem for me. I do understand the drawbacks. Honestly, I don't use either piece much. 
IF I were to buy another table, it would be cast table.... I like iron. I just do not like alum for "machining tools) tables...
I understand the fence issue... I would have to put/ build a sacrificial fence onto the existing vega pro fence. Feeding right to left fits with the jessem guides. I see the point of working from the end of the saw. My stand is on rollers, I roll it under a shelf whenever not in use. So, I can't foresee that being a problem.. it might be... just cant figure it out now. 
I also get the "build a table" route. I just do not want to do that. I would rather spend the few hours it takes actually doing what I see as a project. I know, building a table is a project. My mind just does not work like that. Plus, expense... a WELL designed and built stand alone cabinet would be way more than the 300 to 500 for a table/ fence.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

wagspe208 said:


> Plus, expense... a WELL designed and built stand alone cabinet would be way more than the 300 to 500 for a table/ fence.


I've built very functional tables for as little as $10 by repurposing materials. An added advantage of building a table is that if you build it the same height as your saw or work bench it can be used in conjunction with those as an auxiliary. Time and cost depend on whether you just make a stand or you incorporate drawers, etc into it. I would have to guess that at least 50% of the forum opted to make one and that might be a low estimate. I would guess that those of us with more skill and experience would be closer to 90%. By making your own you get the features you like. My current table has drawers and probably is still under $300. I made my own insert plate out of some thick plastic sheet that my son brought home. I suspect it's acrylic. My Hitachi M12V2 adjusts from above the table and I let my insert plate float in the rabbet on the table which allows me to lift it out when I change bits which I find much easier than trying to do that in table.


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## wagspe208 (Jan 26, 2019)

ok. Let me phrase my question differently.
My router table is 2/3 complete. I still need to add drawers, racks, and wheel locks, paint, etc.
I also opted to include my grandfathers table saw into my router table. Here is a quick pic as I was headed out the door.
What do you think of insert plate vs plate with only router bit ring?


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## richjh (Jan 14, 2013)

I added the tablesaw extension from MLCS to my saw. I use the Triton router TRA001. I have a separate router table but use the saw setup more often. The extension has slots for the fence so I can add and remove it quickly. I can still cut narrower stock on the saw without removing the fence. I purchased the cast iron top but MLCS has other material options. I like having the insert plate myself and I don't mind reaching under the table to lock the router. I added a foot pedal switch for power so I only need to turn the power switch on the router off to raise and lock the router to change bits.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

wagspe208 said:


> What do you think of insert plate vs plate with only router bit ring?


Sorry Steve but I'm not sure what you mean by plate with ring only. Can you post a link to an example?


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## senebraskaee (Apr 29, 2012)

Not on the subject but I could not help but notice the beautiful welds on the saw stand! WOW! Nice job.
Mike


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

A couple of suggestions, if you are willing and have room to use the router from the END of the saw, not the front.

The simplist solution is to make a fence like the one pictured, that's long enough to be clamped to both sides of the router area. You may be able to buy a fence that's wide enough to span with a few inches to spare for the clamps. Normally you just adjust one end forward or back to set the fence accurately. Unlike the TS fence, the adjustments are made around a single point (the bit) so it is always parallel to the cut line. A TS fence has to hold a long piece parallel to a blade, so a T shaped fence base is required to make it parallel to the blade as you push the piece into the blade.

By having a separate fence, you may be able to make cuts on the saw without changing the router setup. 

The other option is to make a wide saddle type add on fence that fits over and clamps to the TS fence. Something like what you'd make for a detachable tall fence. But you will find the minute adjustments you make on a router fence very hard to make accurately with the T type TS fence. Try nudging your TS fence by an exact 17/1000 ths, a gross adjustment for a router fence.

The attached drawings are for a fence you could clamp on if you make the base long enough. The picutes are some interesting ideas and how to hook up to your DC system.


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## wagspe208 (Jan 26, 2019)

senebraskaee said:


> Not on the subject but I could not help but notice the beautiful welds on the saw stand! WOW! Nice job.
> Mike


:surprise::surprise:
Oh my gosh... part of the reason I made it from steel is my welding ability wend downhill over a cvouple of years of not having a shop set up... I am embarrassed of those welds. I used to be a tig welding machine and fair with a mig…. Ran into some health issues, which led to dexterity and coordination issues... I really didn't want to post that pic.
Anyway... the ring insert thing... By that I mean instead of the 9 ish by 11 ish plate that drops in, with the center ring (that goes around the bit, it is about 4" or 4 3/8") vs a table with only the round bit clearance insert. 
The grizzly extension only has the 4" zero clearance insert for the router bit, not a large plate.
https://www.grizzly.com/products/Grizzly-18-x-27-Router-Extension-Table-for-Table-Saw/H7507
In fact, the grizzly table does not have any slots, grooves, etc.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Plate with ring: I popped for the Woodpecker plate. Extra heavy thickness, twist lock inserts with a kit with all imaginable sizes. No screws to lose, makes changing bits quick and easy, especially with a Triton router that locks the shaft when raised fully to the top. I was constantly looking for the screws on my old plate. The Triton also has a pushbutton lock so you can change bits without changing the height--important with matched bit sets.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

There is no need for tracks. Some like one for using featherboards. Some like it for using a miter sled. My last table had T tracks for holding my fence down. I found no particular advantage to that system so I went back to just using F clamps to hold it to my table.

The Grizz table looks pretty good and it has a quick mount system for attaching a router so that you don't need to drill a plate to fit. My Lee Valley steel top has that system too. The downside is that you can't pull the router out quickly to change bits with it and that is one feature I consider a must have. Not everyone does and that goes back to why many of us build our own tables. We have developed preferences in the way we like to work. 

The largest router bits are raised panel bits and very large round over bits. They go up to 3 5/8" in diameter. You want a main hole that big if you want to use those bits. Most of us like to keep the gap between the bit and the insert ring reasonably close so it's nice to have some intermediate sizes or at least 1 small and 1 medium.


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## wagspe208 (Jan 26, 2019)

I ordered the grizzly. I have a machine shop, so if slots, etc... I can just mill them. The grizzly seems heavy enough. I am just doing occasional edge stuff, grooves for bottom of boxes, etc. I do have a drawer lock bit that is around 2" maybe?? But other than that, everything is pretty small. 
The grizzly comes with legs, which I won't use, (I will use adjustable supports from the base up)
I have no issue drilling holes for mounting the router if needed, edge holes to match saw extension, etc. 
It was cheaper to order the grizzly top from amazon than it was grizzly.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Glad you worked it out. As you can tell, everyone has their own preferences.


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## gdonham1 (Oct 31, 2011)

I have a Powermatic 66 Cabinet Saw and would not put a router table on the end. I use the saw too much for it to be tied up with a router set up for a job. I have a Rockler table with a Jessum FX lift and a shop built router table with a 27inch Incra positioner and another Jessum FX lift. I love the Incra positioner with the wonder fence because it is so versatile. 

I have been considering building a new offset router table for the Incra positioner but have a second router mount on the same table. It would get rid of the older Rockler table and stand and let me setup two different jobs. I just have not figured out quite how to set up a single table with two router lifts. Since I have two of the Jessum FX router lifts it is feasible but not sure if it is practical considering the length of the Incra positioner. Still thinking.


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## wagspe208 (Jan 26, 2019)

Well, the grizzly table showed up. I installed it yesterday. I am pretty happy with it. No frills, but it is flat, the triton router actually fit 2 of the T slots, and I used 2 of their clamps. I am working on supports for the outer table. The supports are triangulated to the table saw support area... that way, the wheels and unlevel shop floor have no effect on table height. 
I will post a pic or two when welding is finished... maybe even paint.

Oh, being picky... I took the 50 year old extension off my saw and machined both edges to verify they are parallel and square... they were awesome. Not surprised much, they used to build quality products. From my initial touch of the edge to full, complete remachine was .006". This was not from a good "zero"... it was from the initial touch. They were square from the get go.
I had to drill holes in the grizzly top. No surprise, it was not listed as something that would bolt up The grizzly top was square sides to top btw...


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Just a word to the wise Steve. We've had other metal workers come and saw them get frustrated with not being able to machine wood to the tolerances like they were accustomed to with metal. This frustrated some of them greatly and may have led them to give up on woodworking. You might machine something in wood to a tolerance of a few thou today but when you check it tomorrow it won't be close. That's because wood changes dimensions with humidity even more than metal changes with temperature. I just wanted to point that out to you as your last comments imply you might be headed down that road.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Charles' point was a bit of a hangup for me at first, but there are all kinds of techniques to acount for wood movement. Wood expands and contracts mostly across it's width, against the grain. The softer the wood, the more likely humidity will affect it. And the wider the piece, the more expansion you'll get. For something like table tops, you use special hardware to attach the top so it can move, yet stay firmly attached. 

Plywood, on the other hand, is quite stable, which is why it is often used for panels and case work. You can generally cover the edge with a strip of wood to make it appear solid. It's part of the art and craft of woodworking. However, you still want your tools to be set up with great precision, and it sounds like there's no problem there with your skills.


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## Larry42 (Aug 11, 2014)

I came by a PM26 shaper cast iron top. Put it on the mill and cut out for an Incra router lift. (The Incra is made by Jessem but has steel insert plates held by magnets.) I made the fence from some 8020 aluminum extrusion. It is of the two part design so it can serve as a jointing fence. Every adjustment has the typical quick handles. Fore & aft movement is via 1 1/4" SS shafts through some aluminum castings I made. I made a steel bar that fits into the slots in the 8020 for perfect alignment when the fence is in a straight line.


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## wagspe208 (Jan 26, 2019)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> Just a word to the wise Steve. We've had other metal workers come and saw them get frustrated with not being able to machine wood to the tolerances like they were accustomed to with metal. This frustrated some of them greatly and may have led them to give up on woodworking. You might machine something in wood to a tolerance of a few thou today but when you check it tomorrow it won't be close. That's because wood changes dimensions with humidity even more than metal changes with temperature. I just wanted to point that out to you as your last comments imply you might be headed down that road.


Thank you for the advice. I am totally 100% with you. I wondered why some guys get so worked up about thousandth accuracy on their fence or ?? part. I'm in the Midwest. Our wood floor expands enough you better not fit it tight during install. 
I machined the edges of the table to ensure (hopefully anyway)I didn't have to shim the table to flat. That is surely a fix... but it just seems best to have to solid surfaces, square to one another, bolted solid... not bolted with shims, paper, etc... 
I really do appreciate the input.
I will upload a pic from the phone in a minute of the stand... in progress.


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## wagspe208 (Jan 26, 2019)

So, here we go. This is the back. It is almost ok...The triangulated area is to support the extension table. I just tossed the jack screw in from the grizzly table to show what it will look like. The load from the table weight is transferred to the base directly below the saw. This means the total base, 5' wide can flex if floor is uneven, and it will not affect the router table height (in relation to the saw itself). IF I only used jacks straight up at the corners, if the base flexed or twisted due to floor, the table height would also change. I don't explain stuff well.. I hope it makes sense. 
I want the surface to be as close as it can be... but it is not a cnc mill.... 
Hope to finish up prep work on the base tomorrow, prime, mount saw permanently, and start tearing up some stuff. 

Background... I am a country boy. One of grandpa's jobs was a cooper. Other grandpa played with wood working too. I have done a fair amount of construction for a guy who isn't a carpenter. Buddies all in the trades, so I have a pretty varied background. I am not implying I am an expert... but I am an experienced new guy. HA
I just have more free time now days. When I work on a tool, piece of equipment, etc., I fix all of it. I don't want to have to work on anything every time I go to use it. So, for me, being picky as I say, is just a proper fix, repair, etc. It makes life easier down the road.


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## tulowd (Jan 24, 2019)

Steve: That is a nice bit of fabricating. Looks like a motorcycle or snowmobile lift. I mig'ed together my welding table when I first got the Lincoln180 in order to practice. My background is jack of all trades/car audio install unlike real woodworker, so I totally appreciate your position and inclinations.

Whenever I get at fixing anything I truly attempt to fix everything once and be done. Nothing more frustrating than having to repair something 2 or 3 times, especially when it delays the job/project that was actually on the docket. 

The precision aspect of woodworking vs metal is noteworthy, but still a better perspective than coming from construction carpentry where 1/8" is ok, lol. I use a lot of MDF because of it's inherent stiffness, dimensional stability, tight tolerance machinability and density. Eventually I'll be using real wood, once the car is finished and the shop is fully setup, likely 2022 lol.


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## wagspe208 (Jan 26, 2019)

Well, here are pics of router table v1. It looked nice. I was happy with the stand. Not happy with the layout. The table saw layout didn't flow. I know... stupid... but solid cast table saw top, open extension, solid cast router table just bothered me... so I cut it apart and shortened the extension side. Moved the extension to the left side. Now, I am usijg it a couple of days... to see if I like it before adding brace and priming again.
Stay tuned!


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## wagspe208 (Jan 26, 2019)

Oh, I am probably going to cut off the excess fence rail too... on the right side. I don't do big stuff. If I do, I will just kick myself in the ass then.


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## CharleyL (Feb 28, 2009)

Before you cut off the fence rail, I have never liked web table extensions, because I have had chunks of wood or splinters on the wood being cut, jam in them and cause feeding problems. Also because I have pinched my fingers in the web when feeding work across them. I would have put the web extension on the left of the saw and used a solid extension, even if I had to make it from wood, in the center between the saw table and router table.

You might want to try using your saw in the present configuration before cutting the rails, and then decide for yourself if the webbed table causes problems for you. Then, if it does, either move it or replace it. I could live with it on the left end of the saw, but not where you have it located now.

Charley


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## wagspe208 (Jan 26, 2019)

I will heed your advice before butchering the rails. I have the saw set back up with the webbed extension on the left. I will move the rails to align with the saw front... and see.
I will also build more than the 2 brackets per rail included with the fence. It just seems as more support if aligned, cannot hurt. Ties everything together more..... and I can build some bad a** brackets from aluminum that look super cool! Maybe even a spot for a much used tool with a bracket.
Thanks
Steve


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## wagspe208 (Jan 26, 2019)

Mr. Vega, meet Mr. Wixey. You two should be more closely associated.
I butchered out a few brackets to do just that. They are still in trial fit/ mock up right now. I will detail them to look appropriate after dimensions are set.
The new brackets will be threaded 1/4 20 (probably) for the wixey rail. I will drill the wixey rail piece to match up with the center lines of the new brackets. I will use an allen head cap screw through the wixey rail into the new bracket.
I may mill the bottom of the new bracket slightly (only where the wixey rail sits)…. reasoning... the vega fence has a steel piece in it already. It is the pivot pin for the locking handle. Guess what?? A magnet will stick to steel. The wixey uses a magnet to stick to their bracket, which could be bolted on... eliminate unsightly clutter!


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## wagspe208 (Jan 26, 2019)

Just a little update for you all. I was working on a box for my sharpening diamond things... I was cutting slots, and spacing them apart, then another slot... I didn't want to go 3/8, or 5/16, I wanted in between, then the math... made my head hurt, and I am great with math... so I decided to add a wixey. I did not like how all the brackets were piggy backed on each other. Just looks crappy. Stuff hanging all over the place, only 2 brackets for the front rail, bolts different sizes... just a cluster f.....
So, I ade 4 brackets for the front rail, the wixey rail mounts to these directly, instead of via another bracket. The DRO unit magnet aligns with the steel piece in the vega fence... BINGO. Simple, smooth, done.
Oh, I detailed the brackets and painted them black to match the vega fence, contrasts with the front rail... sweet!


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## wagspe208 (Jan 26, 2019)

oops... psted twice... sorry..
Now, if I can just get this project finished up... I can turn wood into dust.
PM100 resto, resurface the table slides, resurface the table, dry film lube on everything that would get grease or oil... keeps from attracting dust. Paint, etc.


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