# Plenty o' tenons to cut...which method?



## matt1710 (Sep 21, 2010)

Hi

I'm making a dining table that has an unusual trestle under frame, meaning there are lots of tenons to be cut. There are 6 tenons per trestle, and 2 trestles - plus the tenons (possibly two tenons per rail end) on the rails that join the rails to the trestles. So there will be about 20 tenons all up - probably all the same size. 

I'm trying to decide whether to make a jig, do them on the router table, or cutting them 'manually' with a fence on a handheld router. Any advice would be much appreciated. The tenons will probably be about 34mm x 44mm, and about 44mm long.

I've done the 'manually' method before (for my workbench) and it worked well. The jig I've seen holds the stock vertically, and provides a platform on top which the router runs on, and is guided by either a collar guide (in the aperture on the top of the platform) or using a bearing guided bit on the stock itself. 

Matthew


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## Titus A Duxass (Jan 6, 2010)

I knocked up a quick and dirty Horizontal Router Table 

























As you can Tenons are a breeze.


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## gav (Oct 12, 2009)

I find just doing mortices on both pieces and then using loose tenons to be a good fast method.
Titus's method looks good too.


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## Ralph Barker (Dec 15, 2008)

I've been helping a neighbor friend build a two-level workbench with mortice/tenon joinery. We used my Powermatic morticing machine to cut the (large) mortices, and then a combination of table saw and bandsaw to cut the tenons. We cut the shoulders of the tenons on the TS, using a stop block to establish the distance of the cut from the ends of the boards. For shorter pieces, we then used my old Delta tenoning jig on the TS to make the cheek cuts. For longer pieces, we used his bandsaw. 

The trick is to keep the "reference surface" in mind when doing the cuts. That is, the surface from which all measurements are based.


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## matt1710 (Sep 21, 2010)

Thanks for the advice so far. I did consider making a quick horizontal router table but was concerned re holding my heavy router (a 3612C) horizontally - whether that be in the mounting plate, or attached directly to a vertical plate. Any idea re this? My mounting plate is a Bench Dog aluminium pro plate at 3/8" so it's a solid unit...but horizontally?? I guess I could support the router body to reduce the leverage it can exert on the plate. 

I don't have a TS, nor a BS - otherwise that'd be a good option.


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## Titus A Duxass (Jan 6, 2010)

matt1710 said:


> I guess I could support the router body to reduce the leverage it can exert on the plate.


That's how I'd do it if I was fitting a heavy router, a piece of 19mm mdf cut to suit the shape of the router.

My HRT cost less than 10 € so it's a cheap option.

The 8mm spiral up-cut HSS bit cost a bit more mind:laugh:


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## matt1710 (Sep 21, 2010)

If I am to go with a HRT, would it be advisable to use my existing mounting plate - and cut a recess just like I did with the RT - or ditch the mounting plate and attach the router directly to the vertical member of the HRT?


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## Titus A Duxass (Jan 6, 2010)

I went with a new "plate" which is the vertical part of the HRT - it was cheap.


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## gregW (Mar 14, 2007)

matt1710 said:


> Thanks for the advice so far. I did consider making a quick horizontal router table but was concerned re holding my heavy router (a 3612C) horizontally - whether that be in the mounting plate, or attached directly to a vertical plate. Any idea re this? My mounting plate is a Bench Dog aluminium pro plate at 3/8" so it's a solid unit...but horizontally?? I guess I could support the router body to reduce the leverage it can exert on the plate.
> 
> I don't have a TS, nor a BS - otherwise that'd be a good option.


you could probably just use a scissors jack if you need something to support the weight of the router


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## Titus A Duxass (Jan 6, 2010)

gregW said:


> you could probably just use a scissors jack if you need something to support the weight of the router


Good idea and cheap too!


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## istracpsboss (Sep 14, 2008)

I like it Titus ! Any advice on fine adjustment ? Nip up and fine taps?

Cheers

Peter


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## istracpsboss (Sep 14, 2008)

Incidentally, yesterday I saw a morticing machine I hadn't seen before. Instead of it being a hollow square chisel with an auger bit up it, this one used a slim chainsaw held in a similar position. On plunging, it produced a rectangular rather than square hole and could presumably be then moved sideways to cut the full size mortice, as the teeth are working on the side, too, which you can't do with the hollow chisel type.

Have I lived a sheltered life?

Cheers

Peter


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## gav (Oct 12, 2009)

It's called a chain mortiser and you can get bench models or even portable ones.
Makita have one.









Ps. Peter, I finally found a supplier of shellak in Zagreb. 63 kuna for 250 grams, and 30 kuna for 1 ltr 96% alcohol.
http://www.juricek.hr/ Nothing to see on their site but the shop was only a few kms from my workshop.


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## istracpsboss (Sep 14, 2008)

gav said:


> It's called a chain mortiser and you can get bench models or even portable ones.
> Makita have one.
> 
> 
> ...


6mins ! By gum, that were quick !

Cheers

Peter


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## istracpsboss (Sep 14, 2008)

Informative website ! Gornjostupnička 27 OK! 

BTW, I just remembered an art shop just off Ilica. From memory it is through an archway leading to Dezmanova, which is the bottom end of Tuskenac. City centre stuff !

Cheers

Peter


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## matt1710 (Sep 21, 2010)

Very funny!! Now back to reality...


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi

Not to sure why anyone now days would do it the hard way, floating tenons are easy to do and all done with one router bit and a plunge router..

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## matt1710 (Sep 21, 2010)

I raised that idea with my wood working tutor - he said that while it was a fast, easy and accurate way to do it, a traditional fixed tenon and mortise was ultimately stronger. Not sure if he's correct though - any research on that?


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## RJM (Apr 11, 2010)

matt1710 said:


> I raised that idea with my wood working tutor - he said that while it was a fast, easy and accurate way to do it, a traditional fixed tenon and mortise was ultimately stronger. Not sure if he's correct though - any research on that?


I think a floating tenon is just as strong, or stronger. After all, if the mortise is the weaker part, then having 2 of them is no less strong than having one.

Also, aren't glued joints usually stronger than the parent wood?

Here's a thought; a floating tenon permits using a different, stronger, wood for the tenon than is used for the frame members being joined. So if you were working with spf frame members, a nice hardwood tenon would permit smaller mortises which would increase the overall strength of the joint, maybe.

I would guess that "traditional" mortise and tenon joints do not use floating tenons because mortises were harder to make; i.e. floating tenons nearly doubles the work.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

HI 

I would 2nd. Robert's post 

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RJM60 said:


> I think a floating tenon is just as strong, or stronger. After all, if the mortise is the weaker part, then having 2 of them is no less strong than having one.
> 
> Also, aren't glued joints usually stronger than the parent wood?
> 
> ...


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Matt

Many ways to put the slot pocket in place, here's just some of them. the KISS way is with two pins in the router base plate, that you can make for peanuts and it works right every time...no guide is needed or a ruler just a real drop and slot thing.

http://www.routerforums.com/jigs-fixtures/2641-mortise-tenon-jig-plunge-router.html
http://www.routerforums.com/bargain-bin/23736-jessem-slot-mortiser-woodcraft.html

YouTube - JessEm Zip Slot Mortise Mill

=========


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## matt1710 (Sep 21, 2010)

Right - will have to prove the woodwork tutor wrong on this one then - I'm going with floating tenons! It also helps that I have a good jig described in detail in my favourite router book - so I'll build that and hopefully, can use it to cut all the mortises on the table - and there are 40 of them!

I understand it's important to use the same wood (and grain orientation) for the floating tenons, so will make some from the offcuts. Seems a shame to use rimu (another of NZ's beautiful native timbers) for that but if it gets the best results...

Must try and take some pictures as I make these things.

Matthew


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

HI Matt

I would Not suggest doing them on the router table, it's very unsafe, you will need to drop the stock on the bit,it will take more than once pass to get it done..if it hooks up on the way down the stock will take off like a jet.. 

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matt1710 said:


> Right - will have to prove the woodwork tutor wrong on this one then - I'm going with floating tenons! It also helps that I have a good jig described in detail in my favourite router book - so I'll build that and hopefully, can use it to cut all the mortises on the table - and there are 40 of them!
> 
> I understand it's important to use the same wood (and grain orientation) for the floating tenons, so will make some from the offcuts. Seems a shame to use rimu (another of NZ's beautiful native timbers) for that but if it gets the best results...
> 
> ...


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## matt1710 (Sep 21, 2010)

WHOOPS! Didin't mean to write 'on the table'. It's my intention to make a jig that holds the stock vertically, with a platform on top - on which the router will sit.


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## jcr3 (Mar 12, 2011)

Ralph Barker said:


> I've been helping a neighbor friend build a two-level workbench with mortice/tenon joinery. We used my Powermatic morticing machine to cut the (large) mortices, and then a combination of table saw and bandsaw to cut the tenons. We cut the shoulders of the tenons on the TS, using a stop block to establish the distance of the cut from the ends of the boards. For shorter pieces, we then used my old Delta tenoning jig on the TS to make the cheek cuts. For longer pieces, we used his bandsaw.
> 
> The trick is to keep the "reference surface" in mind when doing the cuts. That is, the surface from which all measurements are based.




I do the exact same thing as Ralph has mentioned, I just feel safer and more comfortable. I would imagine tho that once you had a jig for the router, and had done a few tenons, you could tear through the others in no time!
John


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## Titus A Duxass (Jan 6, 2010)

istracpsboss said:


> I like it Titus ! Any advice on fine adjustment ? Nip up and fine taps?
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Peter


Yes, nip up and fine taps.
I have also found that a wedge under the vertical part greatly assists with up adjustments.


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## istracpsboss (Sep 14, 2008)

Ta ! Since spotted its cousin in Bill Hylton's Router Magic, where he uses a little screw adjustor.

Cheers

Peter


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## Ralph Barker (Dec 15, 2008)

matt1710 said:


> Right - will have to prove the woodwork tutor wrong on this one then - I'm going with floating tenons! It also helps that I have a good jig described in detail in my favourite router book - so I'll build that and hopefully, can use it to cut all the mortises on the table - and there are 40 of them!
> 
> I understand it's important to use the same wood (and grain orientation) for the floating tenons, so will make some from the offcuts. Seems a shame to use rimu (another of NZ's beautiful native timbers) for that but if it gets the best results...
> 
> ...


For most applications, I think the relative strength issue between traditional tenons and loose/floating tenons is probably academic. Most objects simply won't be subjected to stresses that would cause either type of joint to fail. Thus, for many things, it becomes a matter of which type of joint is easier and quicker to make.

That's one reason the Festool Domino is so popular among professional cabinet shops. For those of us who don't have $900-plus to spend on a Domino, there's still the practical problem of routing a mortise in the end of long stock to accept a loose tenon. For that purpose, a slot mortiser or horizontal router setup may be the way to go.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi

Just one more way to beat the high price of putting in floating tenons..
" Festool Domino" WOW 

http://www.routerforums.com/show-n-tell/10133-birch-m-t-jig.html
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## derek willis (Jan 21, 2009)

*cutting tenons on the table*

Try this way.
Cutting tenons on the router table without a jig,

•	Pictures 1 and 2 show tenon being marked out, in this instance, the timber is 27mm. and the tenon is to be 9mm.
•	Pictures 3 and 4 show the band saw fence being set to the shoulder of the tenon, cutting the face to stop breakout, not necessarily to the depth needed.
•	Picture 5 shows the fence being set to almost the depth of cut needed to make the tenon
•	And picture 6 shows the tenon being cut.
•	Picture 7 shows a 25 mm straight cutter fitted to the router and a false continuous fence fitted.
•	Picture 8 shows the tenon being cut to its final size, by, “creeping up to the timber very slowly with the cutter until the correct size has been obtained”, this is done with the fine height adjuster. 
Picture 9 shows the final cut, and picture 10 shows the finished tenon.
Cut this way the tenon will always be dead central with no over cutting and no breakout.
Cutting tenons on the router table without a jig,

•	Pictures 1 and 2 show tenon being marked out, in this instance, the timber is 27mm. and the tenon is to be 9mm.
•	Pictures 3 and 4 show the band saw fence being set to the shoulder of the tenon, cutting the face to stop breakout, not necessarily to the depth needed.
•	Picture 5 shows the fence being set to almost the depth of cut needed to make the tenon
•	And picture 6 shows the tenon being cut.
•	Picture 7 shows a 25 mm straight cutter fitted to the router and a false continuous fence fitted.
•	Picture 8 shows the tenon being cut to its final size, by, “creeping up to the timber very slowly with the cutter until the correct size has been obtained”, this is done with the fine height adjuster. 
Picture 9 shows the final cut, and picture 10 shows the finished tenon.
Cut this way the tenon will always be dead central with no over cutting and no breakout.
Picture 01 (600 x 450).jpg (74.0 KB)
Picture 02 (600 x 450).jpg (70.4 KB)
Picture 03 (600 x 450).jpg (73.6 KB)
Picture 04 (600 x 450).jpg (68.5 KB)
Picture 05 (600 x 450).jpg (75.4 KB)
Picture 06 (600 x 450).jpg (74.6 KB)
Picture 07 (600 x 450).jpg (69.7 KB)
Picture 09 (600 x 450).jpg (71.6 KB)
Picture 10 (600 x 450).jpg (73.4 KB)


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi derek

Nice photo shoot of the OLD way to do it.  now you must show the old way to make the pockets to put the sq. end shoulder tenons in..

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derek willis said:


> Try this way.
> Cutting tenons on the router table without a jig,
> 
> • Pictures 1 and 2 show tenon being marked out, in this instance, the timber is 27mm. and the tenon is to be 9mm.
> ...


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## Racer2007 (Nov 3, 2010)

bobj3 said:


> Hi
> 
> Just one more way to beat the high price of putting in floating tenons..
> " Festool Domino" WOW
> ...


BJ , it is more than likely a very great tool. But how can buying anything "Festool" really beat the high price of useing floating tenons. Or was that a joke?


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## derek willis (Jan 21, 2009)

No problem Bob,
but it will have to wait until tomorrow or Monday, I will comply, 
and I will not have to buy an expensive piece of equipment to do it either.


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## derek willis (Jan 21, 2009)

*Tenons.*

Here you are Bob, in response to your royal command, I have used this quite a bit, it also got an award from one of the U/K magazines, cost me about £1:00 whereas a Festool domino, plus equipment runs into £1000:00 which on my meagre pension is way out of reach.
Mortise cutting jig, for use with a router.

•	Pictures 1 and 2 show the jig, a piece of acrylic sheet or mdf or ply about 6mm thick. Drill holes for fixing to your router, fix to your router, then fit a small cutter and plunge through, this will give a centre line with which to work.
•	Mark a line through centre and square to the router, drill and fit 2 dowels either plastic, as I have, or timber, at a distance near to the edge.
•	Here false plate is fitted to router.
•	Here Router is set onto piece to be mortised, then turn the router until the pegs are touching each side and plunge to cut.
•	Here in picture 5 I am using the additional fitment that allows the routing of mortises near to the end. A spacer of the same thickness as the piece to be mortised must be fitted to the end of the extending jig.
•	Picture 6 shows the extending jig.
•	Picture 7 shows all the components.
Your mortise will always be central with the use of a jig like this.

Picture 01 (600 x 450).jpg (56.7 KB) 
Picture 02 (600 x 450).jpg (51.1 KB) 
Picture 03 (600 x 450).jpg (56.4 KB) 
Picture 04 (600 x 450).jpg (74.2 KB) 
Picture 05 (600 x 450).jpg (69.1 KB) 
Picture 06 (600 x 450).jpg (63.9 KB) 
Picture 07 (600 x 450).jpg (81.5 KB)


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## gregW (Mar 14, 2007)

Derek that's simple and effective...I especially like the extending jig.

Thanks!


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## Ralph Barker (Dec 15, 2008)

Derek - nice, simple setup, but you forgot to include the photo showing which bit you use to get square ends on the mortise. 

What Bob refers to as your "OLD" method (using a bandsaw) isn't really the old method, which would entail hand-cutting the tenon with hand saws - preferably, two tenon saws, one crosscut and one rip. The corresponding mortise would be hand-chopped with a mortise chisel, of course. 

All - The range of responses demonstrate that there is a wide range of methods and tools that can be used to accomplish the task. Which method is most appropriate depends on the objectives of the individual, which tools are already available, and what sort of budget is available if more tooling is desired. Additionally, objectives can change, depending on the number of M&T joints to be made. A handful can be different than a hundred, or a thousand. For some, large quantities of joints might justify buying additional tooling. That's particularly true for production shops, where time is definitely money. 

For router-based M&Ts, the Leigh FMT (frame mortise and tenon) jig is perhaps the most versatile commercially-made jig for relatively short stock. But, at $900 (plus accessories, bits, etc.), it's also out of the reach of the casual woodworker. The Trend jig that Bob provided a link for is much more limited, but less than half the price. I've also seen similar shop-made designs from various woodworkers posted on the Web. For example, the Woodworking for engineers guy has an interesting design for a nifty slot mortiser: Multi slot mortising machine. How much time is involved in building it, and how that balances against a commercially-made solution, is another consideration. 

The Festool Domino is a somewhat hybrid approach (think biscuit crossed with dowel and loose tenon), and also falls at the high end of the expense range. It's portable, meaning it can be used on the face of a frame member, or on the ends of long stock - a problem area for other router-based solutions. Again, probably not a solution for the budget-limited casual woodworker, but of interest to wealthier types and commercial cabinet shops. One pro on another forum bought one early on, and figured it paid for itself in about a week.


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## derek willis (Jan 21, 2009)

Ralph, the obvious answer to that is to round off the tenons, but when I use my benchtop mortiser I have no problem at all, although you see I have used a bandsaw, I have not cut the tenons with it, merely removed the bulk of the timber, the router has cut the tenons to accurate dimension.


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## alittlebit (Aug 19, 2008)

thank you ....great info


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