# 23 ga Pinning into MDF edges?



## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

I'm aware of the warnings not to screw into the edges of MDF, due to splitting. Do the ultra-small 23 ga. pins cause the same problem? I'm thinking of them as "temporary clamps" should I decide to glue hardwood edges to the edges of a MDF router table.

Has anyone here tried this?

Jim


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## Mike Wingate (Apr 26, 2009)

Forget the pins and screws. Go with glue and clamps.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Jim

I use them all the time,the pictures is a little fussy but I think you can make it out ,it's 1/2" thick MDF wirh 17 nails in the edge,I did put some on a angle so you can see them and pulled the presser down to 2 lbs, psi. ,1" long pins..I do it all the time with 1/4" thick MDF also 

The last picture is 1/2" MDF with only 3 brad nails and it split it like a walnut 

Hope this helps 

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## Mike Wingate (Apr 26, 2009)

How about biscuits or dowels?


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Mike

I call them junk fasteners ,if I want the joint to turn I use a round dowel pin (so it break lose ) ,if I want the joint to swell up I use biscuits...then when the glue drys out you end up with a little dent in the stock 
I should say I do like square dowel pins 


"It's fine to disagree with other members as long as you respect their opinions." 
MIKE
Senior Moderator


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Mike Wingate said:


> How about biscuits or dowels?


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

23 gauge pin nailers let you do things you can't with other fasteners. It is worth buying one of these tools. I am sure BJ will agree they make life much easier.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Mike 

I do,anytime you can do it without clamps your money and time a head of the job.. 


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Mike said:


> 23 gauge pin nailers let you do things you can't with other fasteners. It is worth buying one of these tools. I am sure BJ will agree they make life much easier.


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

Thanks, all! It sounds like time to add one to my shopping list!


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Jim

I suggest the one below. it's not the high end one but it works great and at the right price, I like the slider on the side that helps select the right pin nail, quick and easy 

Amazon.com: Grip 23 Gauge Pin Air Nailer Gun: Home Improvement

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_h...s=tools&field-keywords=pin+nailer&sprefix=pin

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BigJimAK said:


> Thanks, all! It sounds like time to add one to my shopping list!


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## RustyW (Dec 28, 2005)

I picked up this one a few days ago

- Harbor Freight Tools - Quality Tools at the Lowest Prices

It was $2 more in store but print the page take it with you and they will match it. I know it's HF, but I also have their $20 nailer/stapler. And both guns work fine.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Thanks Rusty

now I need to get one more for a backup , for that price I can't pass it up.. 

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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

Those look like good deals but alas, I stopped on my way home and picked up a PC PIN100. 

As for stopping by HF to pick one up, I suspect the airline ticket from Anchorage would make that one miiiiiighty pricey pinner. Though when I *do* travel, its definitely time to shop.

It's kinda nice that Alaska doesn't have any sales tax. When I travel I can stop into the store and get things and as long as they ship it back home (I can't take it with me), the savings on sales tax defers shipping costs. It also helps in that you don't need to travel with an empty suitcase!

Now, if my TS would just arrive.....

Jim


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## derek willis (Jan 21, 2009)

I recently made a very large shelf unit, using five sheets of mdf, I screwed end grain every time, only I used drill point screws, the sort used for partitions, no splitting at all.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

I'll keep you in my prayers Derek.


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## derek willis (Jan 21, 2009)

Why Harry? Don't you believe it works then?


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## westend (Mar 31, 2009)

BigJimAK said:


> Those look like good deals but alas, I stopped on my way home and picked up a PC PIN100.
> 
> As for stopping by HF to pick one up, I suspect the airline ticket from Anchorage would make that one miiiiiighty pricey pinner. Though when I *do* travel, its definitely time to shop.
> 
> ...


Yeah, where is that saw....just kidding, Jim, I bet you are like a kid the night before Christmas. I know I would be.
I've had a few of these air/brad nailers and if the smaller pin nailers are like their bigger brothers, it pays to get a good one. For casing and other wall trim, I use a Senco and a Porter Cable. As long as the fasteners ae loaded correctly, they operate without needless jamming.
I didn't use any fasteners for the last couple of MDF edge bandings, choosing to glue and clamp. I see Bob's point, though, saving the time to clamp is a consideration. I might have to change my ways :yes4:. Good luck with your new pin nailer.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Over the years Derek I've tried all kinds of screws with MDF and there has always been a tendency to delaminate and if the pilot hole is so big as to have no tendency to delaminate there is little strength in the joint. I wonder if Australian MDF differs from that in the UK.


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## derek willis (Jan 21, 2009)

Harry, look at the screw, the pilot is only the diameter of the shank not the thread, these screws are designed for this type of use, as for mdf I only use the green one ( moisture resistant), there is a great deal of difference.
I first got the idea from my friends in the joinery shop nearby, that's what they use, if it's good enough for the professionals, it's good enough for me.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Ah Derek, that green MDF is very expensive and used for flooring and kitchens by professionals, we hobbyists use the far cheaper product.


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## derek willis (Jan 21, 2009)

Harry, you cannot compare the two. Again I got the idea from the same place, the finish is remarkably superior.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

hi Derek

"I only use the green one ( moisture resistant)"

That's be must hard to make out of saw dust, they sell the same type of screws in the states and they still split the MDF in the states, I would love to see a snapshot of the edge of a board with screw going into place,, one or two from about 1 1/2" from the end..

I have drilled the hole out so big the screw will not hold anything but just act as steel line up pin..but not act like a clamp so to speak.. 

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## derek willis (Jan 21, 2009)

Bob,
I'll see what I can do, but I am unable to go into the workshop until the weekend, hospital clinic tomorrow, and tied up for the rest of today. Nevertheless!!!


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## derek willis (Jan 21, 2009)

Just for you Bob.
I thought, don't let the grass grow under your feet, here is a demonstration piece as you requested, with the bugle headed self drilling screws, countersinking is not neccessary.


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Never having worked with the green MDF I was pleased to learn about it. The 23 gauge pin nailers mentioned so far run from $25 @ HF, $39 @ Amazon, around $130 for the PC Pin100, and that leaves only the Grex line which are priced from $199 and up. Grex do have the ability to shoot much longer pin nails... up to 2" from what I have seen. I'm not sure that there is a need for pin nails of that length, seems like something stronger would be called for. Anybody own one of the Grex nailers and would comment on it?


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Thanks derek

It's looks green,,well I will be damed I wish we had it in the states 

Thanks for taking the time to do it.. now I will be looking for some in the states..

http://www.asianproducts.com/product_1/MDf-Green-Board_P12119610840675244.htm
http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=3361
http://www.alibaba.com/product-free/236146349/MDF_Board.html

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080212225414AA1f5MV
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0VCW/is_4_27/ai_71266839/


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derek willis said:


> Just for you Bob.
> I thought, don't let the grass grow under your feet, here is a demonstration piece as you requested, with the bugle headed self drilling screws, countersinking is not neccessary.


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

westend said:


> Yeah, where is that saw....just kidding, Jim, I bet you are like a kid the night before Christmas. I know I would be.
> I've had a few of these air/brad nailers and if the smaller pin nailers are like their bigger brothers, it pays to get a good one. For casing and other wall trim, I use a Senco and a Porter Cable. As long as the fasteners ae loaded correctly, they operate without needless jamming.
> I didn't use any fasteners for the last couple of MDF edge bandings, choosing to glue and clamp. I see Bob's point, though, saving the time to clamp is a consideration. I might have to change my ways :yes4:. Good luck with your new pin nailer.


Yea Lance,

I wouldn't blame people for wondering if this tablesaw-thing is real or just talk; I've been talking about it long enough! 

It's frustrating though. They indicated it'd be 7-10 days delivery when I was looking. When I asked them to confirm availability & went in with the deposit, they told me Delta was quoting 4-5 weeks to delivery. Now it's one down, 3-4 to go.

Jim

With my luck lately, watch it get backordered! :fie:


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## Hamlin (Dec 25, 2005)

Hi Derek,

Thanks for posting a pic of the green MDF. I'm with Bj though, it's not here in the states. If it is, I must be lookin in the wrong places.


Jim,

Now, remember, patience is the key to woodworking.... yea right. :sarcastic:


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

I'd called my local cabinet makers supplier here in Anchorage asking about the stuff. He knew about it and indicated they used to stock it but had lost the source. If it s used in high-end homes, a wood supplier to custom cabinetmakers would likey know.

The mentioned I may want to consider MDO (like MDF but denser and water resistant; marketed for outside signs). Anyone have any experience with MDO?


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Jim

I have used it once or twice but the price almost gag me...

MDO Wood Signs


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BigJimAK said:


> I'd called my local cabinet makers supplier here in Anchorage asking about the stuff. He knew about it and indicated they used to stock it but had lost the source. If it s used in high-end homes, a wood supplier to custom cabinetmakers would likey know.
> 
> The mentioned I may want to consider MDO (like MDF but denser and water resistant; marketed for outside signs). Anyone have any experience with MDO?


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## westend (Mar 31, 2009)

BigJimAK said:


> Yea Lance,
> 
> I wouldn't blame people for wondering if this tablesaw-thing is real or just talk; I've been talking about it long enough!
> 
> ...


Jim,
I seem to forget that what gets printed on the screen can be interperted in many ways.....forgive me if I seemed to infer that you were just "all talk". That was the farthest thing from my mind when I wrote that little sarcastic jab. 

I know how it is with some of the suppliers. Even down in the lower 48, delivery can be painstaking. I hope that the saw gets delivered in a timely fashion. I am really waiting for your impressions of the Delta after you put it through a few paces. 

I was using the Senco Finish Pro 35, today. I don't know how I could hang a door or window without an air nailer, anymore.


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## derek willis (Jan 21, 2009)

I read and appreciate your comments about the Green, moisture resistant, M.D.F. it is a little more expensive over here, but only about 15% or so, you must surely have some kind of moisture resistant mdf in the states, it's workability is so far superior to the ordinary rubbish.


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

Wow Bob! I followed your link; they want $75/sheet. My local shop wanted $70 for 3/4". With the freight to Alaska, it'd be down in the $50's down there before shipping. I'd only asked because I was comparing it to the prices in a local BBS with the initials HD and a 4x8 sheet of MDF with a 4x8 sheet of a inferior Formica clone was $86. I think I need to call around (non-BBS) some more and try to locate the real Formica, to see how its priced.

Lance, I wan't offended. :nono:. I took your jab for what it was and responded in kind. 

Well, I got one step closer to what I'm building togiht. I got a "temporary power" 100A electrical sub-panel wired in my 2-car garage / shop. Well, by wired I got the wire run, panel constructed and energized. I even got the receptacle installed for my imaginary 5hp TS!  I still need to mount the breaker panel and outlets to a piece of plywood and mount it to my handtruck. I hope to get that done by the end of this weekend. I even got it done without letting the "magic smoke" out of the system! (Don't you hate it when you turn on the power and **poof** the magic smoke comes out? You know you're in trouble!) :yes4:

Starting next week its time to go through the plethora of boxes stored in the garage and create five piles: trash, give away, sell, store out in the shed and a select few to remain in the garage. Gotta make room for the *important* stuff! Oh yea.. and the wife's car come winter. :yes2:


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Derek, pardon me for asking but that looks more like water resistant chipboard which is quite common here and used for mass produced kitchens.


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## AxlMyk (Jun 13, 2006)

I've seen MDO/HDO for $35/sheet.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Mike

Is it/are they green tint ?
By the way I have been thinking about you how's your ticker  by the way how was your trip ?


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AxlMyk said:


> I've seen MDO/HDO for $35/sheet.


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## AxlMyk (Jun 13, 2006)

Not sure on the color, but possibly.
Tickers is doing great. Went to the Rockys/Mariners game and had funnel clouds overhead. What a week for the weather.


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## derek willis (Jan 21, 2009)

Harry,
I know the difference between chipboard and M.D.F. I don't think I've used chipboard, except for flooring, for about ten years or more.


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## John Gray (Jun 26, 2009)

Thanks everybody for the information it will be used as I attach an oak border to the particle board top for a sander I am building.


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

John,

Think long and hard about using particle board for anything that requires strength in bending (any time you have weight over a non-supported section of the board). It has a bad reputation for sagging over time.


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## Mike Wingate (Apr 26, 2009)

I won't be buying a pinner as I have spent all my money on cramps already.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Mike

Can't have to many clamps " cramps" hahahahahahahaha, just think of all the money you could have saved with one pin nailer, that you could use for router bits or lumber  pin nail goes for .oo1 ea.,same as a clamp but you don't need to take them off or put them away after the glue drys out.. 

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Mike Wingate said:


> I won't be buying a pinner as I have spent all my money on cramps already.


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## Mike Wingate (Apr 26, 2009)

I laminate my longbows with 3 to 7 laminates and need about 57 cramps. The one in the photo is a recurve longbow with wedged ends to get the recurve which disappears under string tension and gives 20 to 40 more yards range. Or less elevation at 100 yards York and 90metres FITA rounds. Can you tell that I am not a big fan of nails and pins, but I love using threaded components in my work, (see the Digital Height Gauge). Guitar necks take a few cramps to laminate, as do clamping the fingerboards to the neck. I have 6 4' sash clamps for gluing the bodies. I used 60 spring clamps per box, gluing up individual boxes for my daughters work. The small spring clamps I use on acoustic guitar bodies. If you use the correct adhesive and enough clamps, you can stick almost anything. And give yourself a hernia lifting the job.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

The reason that I queried it Derek was because of the rough finish, unlike MDF but more like chipboard. You have assured me that it is MDF so MDF it is and no offence was meant.


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## derek willis (Jan 21, 2009)

Harry, point taken. I can assure you that W R Mdf is not a rough finish, it is much superior to the ordinary stuff, these two bits have been kicking around for quite a while and may have gotten knocked about a bit.


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

"Can't have too many cramps?" or is that "Can't have too many pins"?

Thanks for all the help, guys!

Jim


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## levon (Sep 14, 2008)

hello guys,

BobJ recommended this pin nailer to me about 7 months ago. my wife wanted to get me some Christmas presents, so i suggested this nailer. 

i have been trying to get into template routing and the jig that i am using works pretty good, but for different thicknesses of workpieces cant hold every thicknes with just the setscrews. i started using the nailer to hole the template to the workpiece and found it worked great! i use the nailer very often to hold workpieces to the template. 

ive also used them for glueups and other purposes. its a great tool, the price is right and i use it all the time. 

i knew BobJ gave great advice, but thank him for the advice to purchase this time saving , labor saving tool!

p.s. i think if we took up a donation and sent mike a pin nailer, he might burn his biscuits and dowels.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

"he might burn his biscuits and dowels."


I don't know about Mike, but I certainly wouldn't Levon, they all have their uses, no one of them is optimum for all situations.


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## derek willis (Jan 21, 2009)

I, personally, am a great lover of biscuits, (of all sorts), but have never been very enthusiastic about dowels. I'm afraid I like to stick to the old fashioned way of mortise and tenon, in the instances where others may use dowels, I have seen so many joints made by dowel shrink and it has been my job to carry out repairs, this would not have happened with M/T joint.


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## levon (Sep 14, 2008)

harrysin said:


> "he might burn his biscuits and dowels."
> 
> 
> I don't know about Mike, but I certainly wouldn't Levon, they all have their uses, no one of them is optimum for all situations.



your right Harry, and i do have a pc biscuit joiner. i do hate to use it. its a pain to use. but it has its place.


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## Mike Wingate (Apr 26, 2009)

Not wishing to seem a tool freak, but... I have 2 biscuit jointers. I really do find them useful for cabinets and other work. I have a BIG mortiser at school and that is really terrific.


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## derek willis (Jan 21, 2009)

Mike Wingate said:


> Not wishing to seem a tool freak, but... I have 2 biscuit jointers. I really do find them useful for cabinets and other work. I have a BIG mortiser at school and that is really terrific.


Nobody wants you at school when you are mine and Harry's age.


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## Mike Wingate (Apr 26, 2009)

They are not keen on keeping me on,but my pupil exam grades are running at 100% pass rate with 70% at a and A* grades,but the 3' x 2' laser cutter/engraver arrives for september. I cannot wait. Any ideas on what to use it for apart from writing my name on everything?


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## rwyoung (Aug 3, 2008)

RustyW said:


> I picked up this one a few days ago
> 
> - Harbor Freight Tools - Quality Tools at the Lowest Prices
> 
> It was $2 more in store but print the page take it with you and they will match it. I know it's HF, but I also have their $20 nailer/stapler. And both guns work fine.


+1 on this pin nailer. I just got one the other day because I have a few jigs I'd like to build and the nailer seemed like a good tool to acquire.

Playing with it this afternoon to get used to it, it had no problems punching through poplar, MDF, pine, baltic birch and a few other scraps of soft maple. Just piddled around nailing this to that. All in all, it worked just fine. Did it all with 1" nails.

I was however kind of suprised to discover this nailer DOES NOT have a secondary safety in the tip. You can fire a nail across the shop should you wish...


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Rob

" safety " I disable mine all together ,,I think they are for the mentally challenged 

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rwyoung said:


> +1 on this pin nailer. I just got one the other day because I have a few jigs I'd like to build and the nailer seemed like a good tool to acquire.
> 
> Playing with it this afternoon to get used to it, it had no problems punching through poplar, MDF, pine, baltic birch and a few other scraps of soft maple. Just piddled around nailing this to that. All in all, it worked just fine. Did it all with 1" nails.
> 
> I was however kind of suprised to discover this nailer DOES NOT have a secondary safety in the tip. You can fire a nail across the shop should you wish...


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## rwyoung (Aug 3, 2008)

bobj3 said:


> Hi Rob
> 
> " safety " I disable mine all together ,,I think they are for the mentally challenged
> 
> ==========


It really just suprised me that it had no secondary safety. Obviously (or not so obviously I suppose) safety is a personal responsibility. Now, lets just see how loaded a statement that is... Ha! :sarcastic:

I will say it was fun making a free-form sculpture out of scraps. Very satisfying sound of the hiss-kerpop as the pin is driven home. For a cheap gun it seemed to be driving things pretty consistantly 1/16" below the surface. And not to terribly much denting, even in the soft pine.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Rob 

" Now, lets just see how loaded a statement that is... Ha!"

Many will say ,don't remove the safety devices, but they have a hard time walking and chewing gum at the same time.. 

Anyone can use a nail gun without nailing ones foot/hand to the floor/stock  it's not a high tech device..

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rwyoung said:


> It really just suprised me that it had no secondary safety. Obviously (or not so obviously I suppose) safety is a personal responsibility. Now, lets just see how loaded a statement that is... Ha! :sarcastic:
> 
> I will say it was fun making a free-form sculpture out of scraps. Very satisfying sound of the hiss-kerpop as the pin is driven home. For a cheap gun it seemed to be driving things pretty consistantly 1/16" below the surface. And not to terribly much denting, even in the soft pine.


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## Etch43 (Sep 15, 2013)

I drill it out an insert dowel stock slivers with a bit of glue. Screws dig into the dowel stock and give you a total grip, not a fist full of pins and hope for the best


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

BJ; Amazon says that one is_ 'unavailable'_...no indication if it'll be re listed at some point.
I'd been waiting for an opportunity to do the Bricks and Mortar thing; actually get my hands on one before throwing my money down. But yes, totally agree on the convenience and time saving aspect, but I need to be careful with the *18ga* or staple option. It can do some damage if not careful about placement of the nails.
I'm looking fwd. to acquiring a 23ga.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

They are nice. The holes are so small there really isn't a need to fill them most of the time. I got a good deal on a Hitachi off Amazon.ca.


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