# Reversible Glue Joint Bit and Lock Miter bit



## Shells (Feb 20, 2014)

I was wondering if anyone has experience using either of these bits or joints?

I have been buying some walnut but have only been able to find narrow widths. I was wondering if the glue joint bit would make a sturdy joint vs. using a Dowelmax. I haven't bought either yet. 

The panels I need are for the sides of a dresser - about 20 inches wide by about 40 tall. It will be 3/4 inch thick walnut. 

Part of the headboard (making bedroom set) will have wood of different thickness so a Dowelmax may be needed for that unless someone can recommend a way to join them.

The lock miter bit will be used to make the drawers and other corners in the set. 

Thanks for any help.

Sue


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## Quillman (Aug 16, 2010)

Glue joiners, if well made (& many are not), have many advantages for edge glued assembly.
Of course, they run the full length of the edge, register one or both faces, & joint & profile in one shot. Moreover, the cut adds ~35% to the glue line. 

Some may say there is no strength advantage nor impact resistance benefit.
Both statements are false. There is a waste penalty, however.
But since the stock is jointed and profiled in one and the same step, the waste could be about the same as a jointed board with no mechanical connection.

Is it easy to mill? No.
Care must be taken to find the thickness centerlines and a well adjusted offset fence is essential.
And jointed/planed flat stock is manadatory, tho there is not necessarily an equal thickness demand!
Have designed several glue joint cutters, a very underplayed and practical way to join stuff together.
The miter/glue joint, whilst also practical, good looking, & strong is about as easy to execute as one-armed paper hanging.


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## BRAVOGOLFTANGO (Oct 11, 2012)

Shells said:


> I was wondering if anyone has experience using either of these bits or joints?
> 
> I have been buying some walnut but have only been able to find narrow widths. I was wondering if the glue joint bit would make a sturdy joint vs. using a Dowelmax. I haven't bought either yet.
> 
> ...


Gluejoints have their place, I'm on the fence as to which is stronger, glue-joint vs tounge/groove (think T&G is), but as stated there are some junk bits out there, the quality bits make it worthwhile. I using glue-joints on some projects where the edges are visible, just looks cool, but if strength was a primary concern for this particular project then dowel joinery would be fine. 

I personally like the JessEm jigs based on their design advantages and they make two doweling jigs that are topnotch designs, the Paralign Doweling Jig 08300 (older model) or JessEm Dowel Jig 08350 (newer) are both first class tools. 

Joinery Systems


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## Shells (Feb 20, 2014)

Thanks for the info. I am very new to projects like this.

I don't know too much yet about which brands are better, other than reading some reviews on a few web sites. I was thinking about Freud bits. I watched a few videos on Youtube about using the ones from a few different manufacturers. I will spend money on quality tools. Of course, finding things at auctions, Ebay or Craigslist is OK too.

I have an Incra fence and a Bosch router. I picked up an old Ryobi router table that is solid metal but I may build a table top also. I may also go for one of the micro dials to adjust settings. 

I haven't see the JessEm jigs yet but will check them out. 

I'm still in the information gathering stage. It's the family gene for perfection coming out I think. And being a nurse has only reinforced it - make it right the first time on your patient but practice like heck beforehand. I don't have full strength in my left hand so I am determined to let the tools help me. 

Doing a persnickety set-up is OK. I'll try to think of it as a personal challenge and doing it right a source of pride. The bedroom set I am planning - it's based on a set that was in the family since the 1860s. It lasted over 150 years and it took a hurricane to demolish it - roof on storage unit crashed - otherwise it would still be with me. A 150 year old bed was capable of holding a waterbed mattress and people without any additional support. That's solid. I want to build this for the ages. Dreamer?


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## paduke (Mar 28, 2010)

Both bits were great training . I love em and highly recommend them. They were not easy to learn but well worth the effort.


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Susan, you really do not need micro adjusters. Freud are good choices in bits and I will dig out some photos that show the difference in cuts between Freud and less expensive bits. Whiteside is top of the line and often for the same or less money than the other premium brands which are made off shore.


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## kywoodchopper (Jul 18, 2013)

Hi Sue, if I understand your question and comments - you are wanting to glue boards side-by-side to make panels. If that is true I would get the edges straight and put glue on them and clamp them. I have done this for 40 years and haven't a glue joint to fail. One problem with dowels is if you forget where you installed them and if you make a raised panel you may expose a dowel. I have never heard of using a lock miter for drawer assembly. I suppose that would work. Often times I use dovetails, box joints and other ways, but I haven't used a lock miter. Learn something new every day. Malcolm / Kentucky USA


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## Shortslvs (Jan 13, 2013)

I am with KW on this one. I have used dowels to glue up panels of troubled wood, but if the wood is milling well and nice and hard like walnut I just rely on glue. Are you jointing this lumber? There is a learning curve there but a properly jointed board will glue up nicely.

It may be a look you are going for with your joint choice or you might just want to do it that way. In that case go for it, and have fun with it. 

Please post pics if you are happy with it. We love to see what our friends build and are building


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## Skyewalker (Aug 30, 2012)

1.do not scrimp on the cost of the lock/mitre bit. The cheap ones will ruin your joint faster than a sledgehammer. Skil makes a really cheap one,......junk.
2.get the larger size for 3/4 wood . There are two sizes available go for the 1".
3. set up can be fun but not too difficult, just finnicky. Get the set-up right and you will love the joints.
Good luck.


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## Shells (Feb 20, 2014)

*Edge joining - glue and joints*

The wood that needs to be made into panels will be the sides of a dresser. It will be weight-bearing, so I was trying to think strength. 

The fronts of the drawers could be just glued.

I'm still at the "don't know what I'm doing" stage so am very open to ideas and suggestions. 

I probably have a tendency to over-engineer. I built some kitchen cupboards years ago (just for function, didn't have much money) and elephants could have slept on top of them. :lazy:


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## Shells (Feb 20, 2014)

I don't want to see the joints in the large panels. I want smooth and will be picky about which boards to place where. How much do the joints show in general?


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## Shells (Feb 20, 2014)

The lock miter bit for making drawers was just an idea. There are probably better methods that will work. I tend to see things and my mind jumps to another idea or application.


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Susan, for a dresser you would be better off using cabinet grade plywood with a veneer of the wood you are building with. This is much more stable than using solid wood and there will be no glue joints to deal with. You can add hardwood strips to cover the edges of the plywood and get great results.

You can use a locking rabbet joint for your drawers and this is built with a straight bit.


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## JPF WOODWORKING (Jun 8, 2012)

I build high-end custom cabinets which often calls for gluing up panels among other things. Edge to edge gluing is very straight forward, will yield great results with a little effort (read: spring joint) and will be more than strong enough without any type of edge joinery produced by a router. Occasionally I will reinforce a unsupported panel (i.e. drop leaf table) with dowels (or Dominos) but even this is not really necessary.Try gluing a couple do scraps, edge to edge. After they cure set the new board in a vice and hit it with hammer. The board will break but not on the glue joint. Today's adhesives produce joints stronger than the wood itself.

As far as the lock miter joint, save your money. This type of cutter is not only expensive it is very difficult to use mostly due to the variability of the thickness of the material. I think I can safely say that I have never seen a lock miter joint used in drawer construction. My advice would be to invest in a simple (half-blind) dovetail jig and call it a day. I use one made by Porter Cable bought 30 years ago.


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## Shells (Feb 20, 2014)

Mike - Thanks for the info. My thoughts on veneer (outdated I'm sure) were that it was flimsy and likely to peel off, chip easily or otherwise self-destruct. Do you mean veneered plywood that is veneer purchased separately and then applied at home or a sheet with the veneer already glued on. Any particular supplier that you like? I have seen some walnut panels on Home Depot but there are too few reviews for me to judge.


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## Shells (Feb 20, 2014)

John - I had no idea today's glues were so good. My info. is based on hide glues from Dad and Grandpa's lessons with many years of not doing woodworking again until now. Dad had a Shopsmith when we built the first house (all ourselves) and Papa was all handtools.

I may wind up with a mix of plywood and solid. The mirror frame has to be solid since it will involve curves and carvings. I don't want plywood on that. Can you recommend any particular brand of glue or point me in a direction? Are some better for certain types of wood than others? Sorry if my questions are totally newbie. The wood is walnut. 

I will be trying dovetails too. 

I think part of my problem with getting info on the 'net is figuring out who is to be trusted. Every company says it is the best and I've read that ratings are frequently done by paid workers. I'm glad there are forums like this and I really appreciate you taking the time to help.


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

hello Susan..

Glue-ups are a relatively simple, straight-forward process. Clamps, culls and glue is about all you need. After having done a few, you'll not give doing one a second thought. 
To my eye, the big advantage of glue-ups is that you have control over the "look" of the panel. Color and grain patterns often play a significant role in how one wants a build to look. As mentioned earlier, wood movement has to be taken into account when doing glue-up panels. Walnut, @ 20" in width can expand as much a 1/8"(+/-) with only a 2% change in humidity. While this may not seem like much, its enough to put alot of stress on joints and the panel itself. 
When color and grain arn't that important and to minimize movement, veneered plywoods are an excellent option. Strong, durable and consistent colors make them a very attractive option. Taking it a step further, locating a veneer supplier who will let you select your veneer and then vacuum press the veneer to a substrate/plywood/mdf etc. presents all kinds of options. I did a dresser build a few years back using veneered panels and could not have been more pleased with them. Take a look:

http://www.routerforums.com/show-n-tell/27854-chest-drawers.html

A great general purpose glue would be Titebond II or Titebond III. With III providing greater water resistance than II. Both are quite suitable for indoor furniture work. 

There are many options available to doing your drawers. If, however, your trying to keep true to the original appearance of the dresser, it is quite likely that either dovetails or half-blind dovetails were used. IMHO, you just can't beat dovetailed drawers.
Remember to factor in what kind of drawer slides you plan on going with as part of your project, as well as start looking at hardware and finish schedules. Both are kind of like the icing on the cake so-to-speak...

Not unlike the net, you'll find alot of varied and often seemingly opposing perspectives on how to go about getting things done. Its not that any one is correct or incorrect. The trick is finding one that will work for you......

HTH
Bill


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## Shells (Feb 20, 2014)

Bill,

The dresser you built is great. I really like the way the wood grain flows in each panel.

I am trying to recreate a specific look and style (Victorian 1860s in walnut). After watching the DVD that comes with the Incra jig earlier today, I will be using dovetails. It's what is on the original and with the jig and some practice I think I can pull it off. This jig seems to take a lot of the stress out (from me) and I don't have to try and hold the router in my hands while working around a pattern.

It's fun breaking down all the steps. The pieces look very complicated but in actuality, they mainly have a lot of trim and applique. Now I just have to watch the DVD about six more times to get some understanding of what the guy is doing. I think I need to get the reference book and have a checklist of the steps with me when I start. Slow and easy learning to get some skill. 

For drawers, I am going without any sort of hardware - keeping to the original. I don't like drawer hardware for some unknown reason. 

I will start doing some glue work. Titebond sounds good - so it's time for some practice.

I know plywood is more able to handle stress but it's just one of those things where it may look good but I will know. The bedroom set was in my family for 150 years and I knew every bit of each piece. It just wouldn't sit right with my poor ol' brain or heart to do it otherwise. Life is funny. If it fails, well, then I learn what I did wrong and try again.

Thanks for the encouragement.

Sue


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

Would somebody just describe to me what a "glue joint" is, and what these bits that are being discussed are?

Jerry


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## pal (Feb 13, 2008)

Susan, this is a glue up of four boards that did a few years ago for a dresser. Glue used was Sellies outdoor PVA, same as your Titebond glue.

Regards
Harold


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

*what is a glue joint.*



Jerry Bowen said:


> Would somebody just describe to me what a "glue joint" is, and what these bits that are being discussed are?
> 
> Jerry


IMO, a glue joint is any wood joint using only glue and no mechanical fasteners.

What the thread is discussing a router cutter that cuts a profile in the board edge to increase the gluing surface and help align the edges.

Katana® Dovetail, Glue Joint, Drawer Lock, Lock Mitre Router Bits and Jointmaker Set

http://youtu.be/POvBhQo2ivQ

Personally, I have never smoked one..........:haha: :haha: :haha:


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## Shells (Feb 20, 2014)

Hi Jerry - I was asking newbie questions. A glue joint bit cuts grooves into the side of a board so that there is more surface for glue - used in edge-joining. I was looking through the Freud website to learn more about routing and what the various bits do.


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## Shells (Feb 20, 2014)

Pal - I am definitely trying edge glue ups. Yours look great. Maybe the specialty bits are "leftovers" from a time when the glues weren't as good as they are today? I am just stumbling around the different sections in the forum and going "hey, that looks like something I might need". And then somebody tells me something better. I love it!


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## Shells (Feb 20, 2014)

jw2170 said:


> IMO, a glue joint is any wood joint using only glue and no mechanical fasteners.
> 
> Personally, I have never smoked one..........:haha: :haha: :haha:


James - I'm guessing that's one of the reasons all your work looks better. Or is it the effect of Vegemite?:haha:

Sue


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

Shells said:


> James - I'm guessing that's one of the reasons all your work looks better. Or is it the effect of Vegemite?:haha:
> 
> Sue


This is an interesting thread, not so much, for me anyway in regard to edge jointing but in regard to adding veneer to MDF. I'm referring to veneer that is creating by resawing and getting grain to match. The rough cut material that I have access to is normally, at best eight inches wide, but my jointer is only a six inch machine. So, in order to get a two pieces of veneer to match, I mean like a mirrored arrangement, at best I'm limited to a 12" face. Anything wider that that just has to be mis-match of the grain, which is not all that bad, but not really what I would like. By adding a three inch wide frame around the 12" wide piece of veneered MDF I can end up with an 18" wide table which is alright but in many instances, but for larger projects luch as the sides of a dresser like Susan is wanting to bult, my method of veneering would not allow for matched grain. I don't have access to a place where I can pick and choose veneer like described earlier in this thread. 

Just wondering what other do or think about in regard to the limitation tha I am referring to.

About an hour so after writing this post, I got thinking that maybe the mirror concept can be expanded if more than two pieces of veneer can be cut from the same board. Something that I have not considered until just now.

Jerry


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## carlp. (Nov 3, 2012)

*reversible glue jointbit*

Hi Susan have alook on sommerfeld site for the easy set gauge it makes setting up those bits very easy. regards carl


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Note that Sommerfeld sells two set up jigs; one is only for Marc's bits and the other is red and for Freud bits. Peachtree also sells the red Freud jig.


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## pal (Feb 13, 2008)

Susan, The speciality bits are great and are a relatively new type of bit (take that as 10 + years), I have a couple of them. When I glued up that panel I was just too lazy to fiddle around and set them up in the outer table.

I do use them all the time now that I have the set up jigs.

Regards
Harold


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

Susan..

Thank you for the kind comments on the dresser. 

Nooooooooo problems with not going with the plywood panels. If your game to go for it, by all means do so. There's more than one say to skin a cat, and if you ask a question in here, good chance you might get a good 2-3 ways to go about it. I'm with ya on the dovetails. 
If you pick up some pine at the local big box store, you can kill two birds with one stone. Get some practice in on your glue ups, then rip the pine to width and practice on your dovetails. The Incra jig is a great jig, but it does have a bit of a learning curve. 

Do you have any thing left of the old dresser? thinking if you do, perhaps incorporate it into this build...



Shells said:


> Bill,
> 
> The dresser you built is great. I really like the way the wood grain flows in each panel.
> 
> ...


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## Shells (Feb 20, 2014)

Bill - using pine for practicing two techniques is a great idea. Hopefully it will make the wood gods pleased enough to let me sneak the walnut by them. Of course, a little pine apothecary chest would be nice to have also. :yes4:


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

This thread that Susan started has become extremely interesting to me and suspect many other members.

As I havd said over and over again on this forum that I am very ignorant about woodworking. I am well aware that many of threads and posts are just plain "goofy". So much of this is due to the way I think, maybe should say don't think. I have had times that I have wanted to just give up on the forum as I realize how strange so much of what I post sounds so different that what is normal.

So, with that said, or admitted to I want to ask about something that has come up in this thread of Susan's. I have had it in my mind to try build a cedar chest for a special young woman on our family. After reading about positive qualities of plywood I have begin to change my mind about using it on a hight end project such as the cedar chest. 

Here is my question. What do members think of making the main part of the chest out of just good 3/4" plywood. Then using a hardwood, maybe oak for example to build a frame with the corners of the frame mitered. Then filling in the frame all the way around with oak boards about five to sixe inches wide that are positioned vertically. Each edge where these workpieces contact each other have a slight round over so that the joints are distinct. Of course the interior would be lined with aromatic cedar. I don't need to go into more detail, but issue is that of using plywood for the carcass and building the outer box so to speak out of oak or some other hardwood in the manner that I have described. This poses the second question. The plywood box or carcass could simple set down inside the the outer oak exterior, or and this is the question should the oak be secured to the plywood or not?

Does this concept of building a chest even make sense. The advantages that I thinkl that I see to doing it this way are, to begin with, a very sturdy as well as a heavy chest. The outer hard wood shell or box would create a nice appearance. I won't go on, I think that a reader of this post will get the jist of what I'm asking about.

This post is an example of why I feel as I do about myself and my queries on the forum, so as said before, "nobody is holding a gun to anyone's head to read my posts or threads". 

Susan, thanks for starting the thread, 

Jerry


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

*frame and panel..*

Hi Jerry, your 'outer' box makes great sense, but I do not see the need to then line it with 3/4" ply.

What you are describing, to me anyway, is a normal frame and panel construction.

Here are a couple of end panels I made from pine and re-cycled fence palings...


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

jw2170 said:


> Hi Jerry, your 'outer' box makes great sense, but I do not see the need to then line it with 3/4" ply.
> 
> What you are describing, to me anyway, is a normal frame and panel construction.
> 
> Here are a couple of end panels I made from pine and re-cycled fence palings...


James,
What you are suggesting is exactly what I had been planning on until I read Susan's thread and it sounded to me like the plywood inside liner or box would add to it's strength and durability over time. It would certainly add to the challenge too.

Thanks for your input James, always very much appreciated, this how we all learn and what the forum is about.

Jerry


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## Shortslvs (Jan 13, 2013)

Jerry I might not have understood your post exactly. My fault, not yours.... But it seems like you are starting with an "over build" and that is a nice place to start planning for any build. Eventually though we have to narrow it down to what we really want to build and what we really think would be best for the build.

If the strength of plywood is what you most desire in the build then start and end with it, with the proper hardwood applied where necessary.

If you want an authintic build that does a serious respectful nod to the past then go all hardood panels.

Either of these approaches is right, but ultimately I have to decide if I am building a show piece or a work piece. I also have to consider how much I'd like to make on the piece and who my customer is, but your project sounds like a gift. Will the gifted appreciate your hardwood panels or will they just be excited to get a beautiful useful chest...?

But finally for the hobbiest you can make your final decision based on what you could do to most enjoy your hobbie and what anyone else thinks about your build "overkill" or not matters not. All that matters is did you have fun and do feel lime your skill was demonstrated or even expanded.

Long answer that probably doesnt answer a thing, but don't give up on forum or worry about not being sure what to do. Who cares? I don't? I love your post


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## BCK (Feb 23, 2014)

what about solid wood frame as said and a oak plywood panel if plywood is a factor..then line with the cedar...saves facing the playwood with oak as an oak one side plywood would cover that??? just a thought or other option??


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

BCK said:


> what about solid wood frame as said and a oak plywood panel if plywood is a factor..then line with the cedar...saves facing the playwood with oak as an oak one side plywood would cover that??? just a thought or other option??


I started the project today and the main carcass is going to be plywood, not veneered material. The outer layer will be of solid oat so the plywood will not show. There will be some room for expansion and/or contraction of the hard wood outer layer. A member of this forum with more experience is coaching me on the project.

Jerry


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