# Do others do this (research)? > Dust Collection



## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

If something interests me or I want to know something more about something I read about it... It's fun to me. I take it on as a challenge to learn how something works. How to make it work better. What is fact or fiction.

This could be on joining and cross-grain joints... 18th century furniture makers did this- so I studied 18th century furniture makers... How machinery works and how to repair or tune them. How to make a particular joint better. It was recently on the subject of Dust Collection.

This is only a recent interest to woodworkers in home shops, but has been used for a long time in manufacturing and production. There is a lots of studies out there on how this works and how to apply it. So I studied. So a lot of things are not original. They have been thought of before... they might just have been used in other applications. Funny about that.

There is 2 styles of cyclone "proportions" that are popular as being effective. They are 2x2 and 3x1. If you look at lumber mills or other factories, you will see many examples of these in those 2 proportions in their skyline. It represents the proportion of the bottom and top section's height in proportion to it's diameter cross-section.

The most effective system I could come up with after my research... to use a DC unit that was overkill in throughput, use a cyclone separator with a baffle (such as a thiel baffle)... and regulate the flow through the separator... By causing a vacuum leak to get the "right" or optimum flow.

Not enough flow through a separator and it doesn't get a good cyclone effect going and there is not high enough a centrifugal force to separate the particles from suspension. Too high a flow and the effectiveness also is degraded.

You might think that this info would only be handy if you were going to be making your own, but it might helps you in making a decision to buy a pre-made... as there are pre-mades manufactured that have both a cyclone and baffles.

That is why I like to research things, to be able to make informed decisions. Is this an interest to others?


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Heh... I support _your_ doing the research 100%, Mike 
I have absolute confidence in you!


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

Well, I don't think we research the same things, but I do research on my projects if need be, usually a LOT of research. One example is my canes, I like different handles - rabbits, lions, grumpy buzzard, grumpy turtle, whatever. So I do a lot of looking at images on-line, and save the ones that look interesting. That look interesting at the time that is. I might wind up with several hundred pictures at times, and then I go thru and cull the ones I decide I don't really like, repeat, until I've got just a handful left. Then I make sketches using those as inspiration, until I get something I like, or dump them all, and start over. 

Right now I have a nifty old shotgun that needs a buttstock. So I've been looking on-line for instructions, so I won't have to reinvent the wheel. I've been looking for a while, but nothing has came up that is really helpful. I'll be looking more, but think I'm going to have to reinvent the wheel - which is no biggie, but had been hoping for a helpful tip or two. 

I like to research how the old woodworkers used to do it too. If they could make a piece of furniture or whatever that will last 200 years plus, they were doing something right, even if a lot of people today would consider some of it crude, especially the parts not exposed to daily view. 

I can't say I copy much that I find, I do tend to put my own imagination to work, but I really do value my research for inspiration. Once I get a few other projects out of the way, I intend to make some custom carrying cases for a couple of guns. The cases will be plywood, but not like any plywood cases I've ever seen. The front and back will be solid plywood, and the ends and sides layers of plywood, with the plies showing, and routed to shape. My piggy bank build may be considered practice for this, as part of the bank, a big part, will be done the same way. 

Besides, doing research like that, you always get side-tracked, and run into all sorts of really interesting stuff, then side-tracked from that, and so it goes. Do love the web, even tho it does cost me sleep at times.
:lazy2:


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

DaninVan said:


> Heh... I support _your_ doing the research 100%, Mike
> I have absolute confidence in you!


ROTFLMAO! Didn't you, Duane and Charles tell me, you guys "also" look at furniture and cabinet catalogs to get "ideas"?


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

PhilP and I used to send each other books on 19th century joining...


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Yes. I also look through the Yellow Pages...


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

DaninVan said:


> Yes. I also look through the Yellow Pages...


Surprisingly enough, I do too, upon certain occassions. AND I hit the local library, absolutely amazing some of the stuff they have there. Used bookstores, if I'm close to one. New bookstores too, but if I find anything I like, then I try to hit a used bookstore, or on-line booksellers, and can probably get whatever book I like for maybe a quarter of new price, sometimes less.


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

In that case, for your reading pleasure, see the attached... "Wilson's Carpentry And Joinery", 4th Edition, 1891.

Seems that the Library of Congress took books that were out of print and scanned them into pdf format. Now they are available if you know were to go and how to look for them.

I have a lot of these books free from them and free from Google Books. PhilP keeps an eye out for some over on his side of the pond. (And I for him.)

I found some really good ones. Such as "The Gentleman and Cabinetmaker's Directer" by Thomas Chippendale, 1754. But most those are too large to upload and share here (10MB limit)... But I could email them.


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## dicktill (Mar 27, 2013)

Mike: Have you looked at Bill Pentz's extensive work on dust collection? See billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/index.cfm


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

MAFoElffen said:


> ROTFLMAO! Didn't you, Duane and Charles tell me, you guys "also" look at furniture and cabinet catalogs to get "ideas"?


Yes and I've been following the discussions on dust control with great interest also. I have a 2 hp unit but I also have a fine layer of dust on everything in my shop so I know I need to make modifications. I don't have a cyclone and I know I need one and probably a filter as well but haven't been back to my shop enough to get to it. (Self imposed exile from the Okanagan area of BC to Alberta for monetary reasons.) I have also toyed with the idea of putting the DC outside like you considered doing. My bags aren't small micron but I have good flow through, something I'm not sure about with the 1 micron bags which apparently aren't fine enough anyway. Hopefully, the ideal solution will become aware (and economical) by the time I go home for good.

I also get a lot of ideas for jigs from Lee Valley's catalog, something I consider no woodworker should be without.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

I had a quick look at the Wilson Carpentry download. I like to check these out whenever I get the chance. There is lots to be learned from the old way of doing things. We do things a little differently because of the changes in the materials we use. The basic principles don't change. It's good to be reminded of that.


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## Router Roman (Jun 7, 2012)

Mike,
Thanks for the quick lesson and insight on dust collection. 
Roman


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## chessnut2 (Sep 15, 2011)

Mike......I'm familiar with using Google books, but could you tell me a starting point for finding the Library of Congress offerings? Thanks.


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## OPG3 (Jan 9, 2011)

> Do others do this (research)?


Mr. Mike,

ooooohhhhhh YEAH! IT's called "refinement". As many of you know (you, Mike especially) and others will learn; I am an inventor. Refinement of [even] new ideas is important, too.

Product introductions are very key to the future sales successes - some intros work, others don't - "nobody bats 1000" when you have dozens of inventions on the market as I do. If a product "hits the street" not properly Researched and Developed, it is a guaranteed failure. If that same product has been produced without superb product quality testing - it will start-out on the wrong foot. Some products come out as a "beta" version. I have always made a practice of not selling "beta" versions intentionally. If my design is not ideal for real-world situations, I want to know. We do however; send-out "not-fully-developed products" for consumer feedback - with a clear understanding that we get-back honest reports of likes and dislikes. We are very choosey about who gets to be a recipient of these products. Naming products can be quite important, as well; and that is a whole field of study in itself. I have a group of people that have proven over-the-years to do this kind of work extremely well. 

When we (Router Forum members) are doing things for our own personal use, it is good to make prototypes. These can be done in a number of ways - oftentimes one only needs to make prototypes of the key or innovative components - while in other cases a full and working prototype must be made. Component or full product prototypes can also be made in several ways - one of these methods is simply to scale-down what the target product will be like; another prototype making method is to use computer solid modeling programs. Many of you are using Google Sketch-Up and are doing some amazing work with 3d model creation. This type of work is quite helpful and a tremendous amount of data can be collected from the "virtual model" that gets produced. All paper prints are 2d images, but can be generated from a 3d "virtual model" with command suboptions that enable what is often referred to as "projection to a plane". 

I am often called-upon to utilize stereolithography - which involves creation of a detailed 3d [virtual] model on computer and using an "export" facility to convert the file from whatever is your computer's inherent filetype into .stl format. The .stl file can then be sent to a "3d printer" for a real "hold it in your hands" model. I do not own a 3d printer; but rather I simply email my files to a company in Knoxville, TN - who has been making 3d prints for me for many years. They have well-maintained, state-of-the-art equipment and have made me perfect models every time! This method is a.k.a. "rapid prototyping". Before I dove into RP work, it could take months or even years to design, produce short-runs, implement, test and refine invention concepts - now, the "short-run" process is really short! From sending-out .stl files to my Knoxville vendor, I usually have a real-life model for me, customers or employees in one week!

A couple of years ago, PEPSI had need for me to design something for them...that "Couldn't be done" - according to their design team, engineers and contractors. When I got into it, I was beginning to believe everyone's assessment. Construction of this two-story monstrosity (that weighs over 750 tons) was an 18- month project. Now, it is complete - it worked perfectly, and is saving them millions of dollars per month and greatly increasing their product speeds and quality control!

Certainly, numerous computer 3d models had to be made - components, of course - and guess what? Everything was scaled-down and checked and rechecked until I was satisfied that it would perform exactly as designed by me and one coworker!

Yes, Mr. Mike - RESEARCH IS *THAT* IMPORTANT!


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## paul11 (Jan 17, 2012)

As part of your research, I would highly recommend Googling "Bill Pentz" and visit his website. He has also done a great deal of research regarding dust control for woodworkers and has a wealth of information for those seeking to start or improve their workshop dust control.

His cyclone designs have become the standard design from which the makers of wood shop cyclones have produced their products. ClearVue Cyclones has directly licensed Pentz's designs while Grizzly and Oneida have knocked them off without compensation.


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

chessnut2 said:


> Mike......I'm familiar with using Google books, but could you tell me a starting point for finding the Library of Congress offerings? Thanks.


I stand corrected (not library of congress) as it seems it is through Yahoo, Microsoft and a bunch of colleges and universities... Same effect though- an online library:
Internet Archive: Digital Library of Free Books, Movies, Music & Wayback Machine


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Tying this back to DC's... This is a paper that i thought would be of interest here. I found in the Texas A&M Archives, "Efficiency And Pressure Drop Of Cyclones Across A Range Of Inlet Velocities," by W. B. Faulkner & B. W. Shaw, attached.


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

Great thread.


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

paul11 said:


> As part of your research, I would highly recommend Googling "Bill Pentz" and visit his website. He has also done a great deal of research regarding dust control for woodworkers and has a wealth of information for those seeking to start or improve their workshop dust control.
> 
> His cyclone designs have become the standard design from which the makers of wood shop cyclones have produced their products. ClearVue Cyclones has directly licensed Pentz's designs while Grizzly and Oneida have knocked them off without compensation.


"i" have... as well as J. Phil Thien's Projects and many others. Occording to your wording: Exactly on some points, sort of with others...

Quoted from Pentz'es intro to his site:


> Although cleanup of wood dust, shavings, curls and chips known as "chip collection" remains important to avoid fires, slipping, and being able to see as we work, I painfully discovered the dangers of invisible fine dust. I used the top magazine rated cyclone based dust collector with vendor designed and supplied ducting plus vendor recommended upgraded filter. That system worked poorly but left a clean looking shop that created a bad false sense of security. I landed in the hospital from a bad wood dust triggered allergic reaction. My respiratory doctor had me spend my down time learning about fine dust. This web page gives an introduction and overview of what I learned.


Summary- He got sick from using an inadequate Dust Collector System. He did research to see how that really worked and how to make it better.What he really found was that dust collectors themselves where still not enough...

Thein had a Dust Control System using a shop vac that wasn't really working for him. He did the same...

With me, I find how it works, gather the data, sift through the fluff, look at other's experience before deciding if that would be right for me. If right for me, get my hands dirty. (That's if it has been done like that before.) If it doesn't work as I expected, decide on how to make it better.

If it has not been done like than before. Collect data on the physics of it- how it could happen // how it should work. Apply that to my application in a prototype. Collect data on that application. Improve it.

***
My "underhanded intention here" in this thread aligns with those two mentors (Mr. Pentz and Mr. Thien) in that, if you want to do something or have something and it isn't working as expected, use it as a learning experience. Find out for yourself, with an open mind, and tweak things until you find what works for you through yourr own experience and the experience of others... Yet understand that "that" one way may not be the only way... It's just one way of many that might be possible.

You can read many experiences of other's following their own interpretations of those 2 in their own endeavors and their efforts were not idyllic.Why would this be, one might say... Well, there "are" some other factors, that Pentz and Thein didn't get into.

Dust Collectors sort of remind me when I was a teenager- I used to race "Fords." Someone told me, when building Chevy V8's, it was easy... anything you could do was an improvement... That is sort of like Dust Collection. Cyclones and baffles have been around in factories and lumber mills for a long time before someone decided to try to scale one down to use in their garage... Just adding a cyclone effect (circular airflow movement at the top of a vessel) to a garbage can (tube shaped vessel) may separate wood chips... but maybe not as effectively as traditionally cyclone shaped vessel in the two proportions that have proven their effectiveness. ...And maybe not as effective as the same with a baffle.

There is one I know of - pre-made woodworking style separator that has all "these pieces"... and you named it, sold by ClearVue. There may be more, just one I can think of off the top of my head...

A separator works with a positive or negative pressure. But both those variables need to be only positive or only negative pressures. If there is a leak, it stops working. Enter in the new Dewalt planer, with it's blower... If you have connect to a DC, the separator stops working, because it thinks it has a leak... positive pressure in the inlet, negative pressure in the outlet, neutral pressure in the separator. So now, with that planer, you have to turn off the DC and ensure the lid is secured on the separator. One member here finds he needs 40#'s of weight to keep his lid closed.

So that leads into other factors besides basic design, such as static pressure and airflow through a separator. At a very low flow, there is not enough to suspend the particles in that flow. When this happens, after you shut down your DC or Vacuum source, there will be junk left in your hoses and in the tops of closed gates along your ducting. What does get carried on to the separator will immediately fall to the bottom of the container, because it was not really in suspension in the first place. But fines will be carried on, because there was not enough of a cyclone swirl effect to separate them from suspension.

At a little higher flow, but still not enough flow through it, then small and large particles are in suspension, there is not an effective cyclone swirl action action created in the separator, so then it carries large and small particulars out the outlet (more than it should). 

Low flow? How? This could be from an underpowered flow source (underpowered shop vac, too small an impeller in too large an impeller housing, etc.), hoses stepped down from 1-1/4" to 4", too many DC gates open, too long a DC run, too much resistance in the runs, positive-negative pressures zeroing each other out, too much resistance after the impeller from filters or ducting (back pressure), air leaks in the ducting or separator, etc.

The other side of that is too much airflow through a separator. Too much airflow through an airflow separator and the cyclone effect is disrupted and the particulars don't have time to separate from suspension before exiting the separator and on...

Most people don't have too much flow. If you have one or two gates open and your separator lid is sucked down, the helical hoses are compressing, you have a separator and it's still passing large sawdust through to the DC filter bag, you might have too much flow. Play with it and see it you can regulate that by opening another gate... 4", 2-1/2", 1-1/4"... I know of only one shop that was so lucky that they added 21 open drops for cleaning the shop and work areas, because even with all their machine drops left open, they had too much draw, but separation problems. This is rare.

Wet/dry vacuums and DC's are two different animals. Vacuums rely on tight clearances of the impeller, high static pressures and somwhat loow CFM. On the average a wet/dry shop vac has a static pressure between 50"-65" w/l... that is what is important if you are trying to vacuum up nails and bolts from a floor. The CFM rating on them is only 100cfm to 185cfm. If filtered, the filter is before the impeller. Anything caught in the impellers means bad news.

Dust Collectors have a material handling styled impellers. They have some clearances... but wide enough to allow material to go through the impeller & housing. Some vendors will try to tell you that as cfm increases, static pressure drops... That is not necessarily true, but there are design changes and looser tolerances that cause that. DC's usually only have 7"-10" w/l.... but varies from 150cfm to above 6000 cfm. (10HP DC has 6000cfm. 17" w/l and either a 16" inlet or five 4" inlets...)

Then how much airflow in CFM is sufficient? This varies depending on the tool and/or tools tahta require DC... for instance a small miter saw may only need 80-100 cfm... but my panel saw takes 1150cfm.

Bill Pentz,in his research and the editors of Fine Woodworking, both found independently that small shop class woodworking Dust Collector manufacturers lie about how much airflow their equipment is rated at, compared to what they test out at. Bill found one manufacturer with multiple models that had different HP motors, turning the same speed, but the same impeller. They claimed different cfm ratings... which physics would say they are pushing the same amount of airflow, with just an easier load on the larger motors... This still happens today and is not changed. There is still much room for improvements. Although a dust separator may contain a cyclone in it's filtering a pre-filter dust separator compliments the effectiveness of a dust collector.

Bill Pentz went on to test fans with better filters to filter out "fine" dust, because DC don't filter out dust finer than 0.5 microns. It's that fine dust that he found out the hard way, which is most dangerous.

Thein research on how to tune a cyclone as to not get a burbing effect from the settled shavings in a cycolne. In doing so, he found that by creating a certain shaped outside slot, you could not only do that, but separate finer particles. The shape and length of that slot needs to be tuned to the individual environment to be optimum. It is tuned (in size) to the cyclone and the airflow through it. There is no standard, do it to this size, as a catch all.

Just saying, before someone says "this is the only way and it covers everything in all conditions"... They might want to look into just what that understanding means. Right?


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Too many thoughts running rampant at one time? Or too long a post? LOL. Oh well...


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

I checked out the ClearVue link, Mike. There's a _huge_ product gap between their little shopvac powered model and the big 1800. 
I don't understand why the disinterest on their part in the hobbyist with an existing 1-2 HP DC, who wants to upgrade the efficiency of their system?
Seems shortsighted to me.


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

DaninVan said:


> I checked out the ClearVue link, Mike. There's a _huge_ product gap between their little shopvac powered model and the big 1800.
> I don't understand why the disinterest on their part in the hobbyist with an existing 1-2 HP DC, who wants to upgrade the efficiency of their system?
> Seems shortsighted to me.


Yes/Agreed. 

"Mike" (Admin) originally had me look into them... I like the design. I about had a heart attack when I saw their prices!

At the time, it was when My 2hp DC was not up to par. Mike had me look at the hobbiest version... which was 2-1/2" fittings and is more geared to a shop vac. That one looked a bit pricey, but still in there for a hobbiest. But small storage and (again) limited to a shop vac

I looked at the next step up, which was 4" fittings, but just the cyclone unit itself is over $600. Good design, but honestly, that scared me away in a heartbeat... and I quickly stopped looking. 

It gave me good ideas for "if" I was going to make my own... but in reality, I couldn't afford to buy theirs. 

I am looking at building an air-filter from a box fan and furnace filters to hang from the ceiling... and maybe trying to remove some of the back-pressure from my DC (maybe a Wen A-35 cartridge kit). The back-pressure in my DC is so, that it's stretching my exhaust filter bag. I'm no doctor, but... I'm thinking if I don't take care of that, eventually it's going to over-inflate one morning. (Pop)


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

*The Old Bag*



MAFoElffen said:


> Yes/Agreed.
> 
> "Mike" (Admin) originally had me look into them... I like the design. I about had a heart attack when I saw their prices!
> 
> ...


No room to hang multiple bags (baghouse), re relieving the back-pressure? Also, that'd reduce the particulates escaping, assuming 1 micron weave on the fabric.
Maybe put the bags in an exterior attached shed with lots of ventilation, or a return vent back into the shop for energy savings?


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

I've thought of putting mine outside too Dan but if you vent back in the small particles will come back in too. They are so light some will float for hours. I know, because when the sun is shining in my windows at the right angle I can see them. Of course if you vent out there goes your heat. Fine Woodworking says you have to use a hepa filter but they are costly and require steady maintenance even with a good cyclone. Maybe the air vented back into the shop could be hepa filtered after the cyclone and the 1 micron bags?


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

I hear you. Remember I put in that bigger impeller? Right now I have a 5.0 micron bag. I can see lots of settled fine dust and I have all that back-pressure. I was wary of going to a 1 micron bag, because I already have all that back-pressure. Right now I'm about $300 into the DC.

I guess I could go to a gang- buying a filter ring, band hardware, bags and another filter bag, a "Y" fitting, hose and modify my mounts to hang another ring... but by the time I buy all those separate parts, it might be cheaper to buy a HF 2HP DC to use the parts off that. (On sale right now for $199 and would use a 20% discount coupon) Then I'd end up with less back pressure, but still only 5.0 micron filtration... Unless I also bought some 1.0 filtration bags...

A Wynn A-35 cartridge (Filter #35A274BLOL) is about $109, is 0.5 micron and would relieve at least some of that back pressure. I think I remember, that after shipping to me, it's going to run around $135.
35A Series Cartridge Kit
...Their nano filter is about $50 dollars more, but is rated as the same??? I don't see going that way as smart... But then again, it is a durable lifetime kind of material. But by their calc's a normal filter bag is 35 sq/ft of filter and doubling the area should reduce the pressure by 4 times. So 274 sq ft of filtration is almost 8 times the area of a filter bags and should be 24 times less pressure... I know re-world realistically it shouldn't be that much less, but it's a step in the right direction for less investment and resulting in a shorter/smaller footprint than a gang of filter bags.

I could build a hang over off the garage to house the exhaust filtration (already planned after the deck and the 10x10 Shed next to the driveway...), but the extra outside storage alone won't solve the back-pressure issue... Unless I just vent it outside with no filtration --or-- into another "outside" positive pressure real cyclone separator with a thein that it's final venting is through a stack of furnace filters... Of course I nixed the $500 2400cfm parallel DC upgrade as "overkill" and onto the short list... besides too spendy.

Sidenote- I have to talk with the neighbor tonight about that 10x10 shed. It's going to be on skids, but within 1 foot of the property line between us...


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Mike, have you come across any hepa quality flat filter media at a reasonable price? After what I posted I am starting to think that that might be my personal solution. Cyclone inside the shop, DC outside the shop in an enclosure, and then hepa filter the positive pressure in the enclosure back into the shop. That seems to make the most sense. FWW put the hepa filter after the cyclone but in front of the DC and there were issues with keeping it clean enough to not affect the air flow.


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> Mike, have you come across any hepa quality flat filter media at a reasonable price? After what I posted I am starting to think that that might be my personal solution. Cyclone inside the shop, DC outside the shop in an enclosure, and then hepa filter the positive pressure in the enclosure back into the shop. That seems to make the most sense. FWW put the hepa filter after the cyclone but in front of the DC and there were issues with keeping it clean enough to not affect the air flow.


Oneida--> H12 HEPA Media Filter Conversion Kit | Oneida Air

But here's what Wynn says:


> Beware of filter suppliers that are claiming HEPA efficiency with a round cleanable dust collector filter. To the best of our knowledge, there is no such thing as a "Cleanable HEPA" here in the United States. Here in the U.S., a filter must meet MIL Std 282 to be called a HEPA...that's 99.97% efficient at 0.3 microns. European HEPA standards vary widely from H10, which is only 85% efficient at 0.3 micron, all the way up to H14, which is 99.995%. Before you risk your health, or waste a lot of money on a filter, be sure to do your research. A quick Google search for "european hepa efficiency", or "en 1822" will turn up valuable information. Again, in the United States, a filter must be 99.97% efficient at 0.3 microns to be rated HEPA.


But since They are competitors... and that filter is an H12, it should be okay. Note the price though. You could probably shop around for it and get a better price somewhere. But that is a cartridge kit, not flat...

EDIT-- Then the other side of that... Hepa Filters in HVAC and DC applications (high volume) are noted for having higher resistance and cause back-pressure. In HVAC apps, they say in might take an upgrade to the fans to handle that higher resistance. I didn't read all the reviews for DC app's, but there was some noise over at LumberJocks along the same lines... You might want to read those.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

The suggestions that FWW had was to go from cyclone to fine filter media then to DC which has medium filter media. In any other filtering application you go progressively finer but with the DC inside the shop that's impossible. However, if the DC is inside an airtight enclosure you could go from cyclone, to DC, to fine filter media by installing the fine filter media in the wall of the enclosure. I am picturing flat media panels like furnace filters.There must be something like that somewhere since computer manufacturing and I think certain hospital rooms require filtration like that. By using flat filters it would be possible to install a bunch of them which would lessen the back pressure problem. Also, by running the airstream through the DC's bags first would reduce the particle size and volume going to fine filtration. If you happen to come across something like that in your research, PM with it.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Maybe I misunderstood you Charles, but wouldn't an 'airtight enclosure' completely defeat the functioning of the system(?). 
On the flat filtration media, I'd come across it in the past while redesigning a veterinary clinic's air handling issues. It was a long time ago but their problem had something to do with micro filtering the air between two rooms, and the exterior.
I'm pretty sure I found it while doing the Yellow Pages thing, looking for odour abatement or something similar.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

It's out there, but you'll need to go to industrial wholesalers...
http://www.jm.com/engineered_products/filtration/GlassAirMediaGraph.pdf
http://www.jm.com/engineered_products/filtration/products/gfm-30.pdf
https://www.acklandsgrainger.com/AG...balProductDetailDisplay.do?item_code=FLG92133

I'm pretty sure that when they refer to efficiency, the standard is 1 micron particles that they're basing it on.


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> The suggestions that FWW had was to go from cyclone to fine filter media then to DC which has medium filter media. In any other filtering application you go progressively finer but with the DC inside the shop that's impossible. However, if the DC is inside an airtight enclosure you could go from cyclone, to DC, to fine filter media by installing the fine filter media in the wall of the enclosure. I am picturing flat media panels like furnace filters.There must be something like that somewhere since computer manufacturing and I think certain hospital rooms require filtration like that. By using flat filters it would be possible to install a bunch of them which would lessen the back pressure problem. Also, by running the airstream through the DC's bags first would reduce the particle size and volume going to fine filtration. If you happen to come across something like that in your research, PM with it.


One way to do that is go... Unit needing Dust Collection -> Separator (Cyclone/Thein) --> Dust Collector Blower/Impeller --> Cyclone Rings w/ Filter/Collection bag/cans gallery inside an enclosure box --> Enclosure Ducted to a another finer filter...

(picture of that basic arrangement from Bill Pentz site:








--OR-- That finer filter could be a filter stack, like we have envisioned...

The Filter Stack could be medium-efficiency flat furnace filters stacked so it is thick which would add filtration, but not add as much flow resistance --OR-- a HVAC Hepa Filtration System such as this:
HEPA Air Filtration Systems - Pure Air Systems - 2000HS PLUS

That system is modular... Modular in that it could be just the filters to an existing system or use their blower. Note that with what we are talking about, we would just need just the filters for the stack (pre-filter, carbon filter and hepa filter) and build our own filter stack boxes to house them. Their blower is rated at 2000 cfm. Noted that if you look closer through their specs that that 2000 cfm unit is only pushing 1200 cfm after you install all the filters... so there is a lot of resistance in those filters. The cost of the filter stack for that unit is around $400. For me, even if I could afford that, the resistance would push me DC back down under what I need to evacuate my saw.

If you look at this article:
HEPA Filters in Forced-air Furnaces and Air Conditioning Systems
...and look down to what the EPA says about filtration and Hepa Filters:


> Manufacturers market HEPA filters to allergy and asthma patients. Experimental data and theoretical predictions indicate that medium-efficiency air filters, MERV between 7 and 13, are likely to be almost as effective as true HEPA filters in reducing the concentrations of most indoor particles linked to health effects. Available data indicate that even for very small particles, HEPA filters are not necessarily the preferred option.
> 
> For these small particles, relatively large decreases in indoor concentrations (around 80 percent) are attainable with medium filter efficiency (such as a MERV of 13). Increasing filter efficiency above a MERV of 13 results in only modest predicted decreases in indoor concentrations of these particles. Predicted reductions in indoor concentrations of cat and dust mite allergens carried on small particles vary from 20 percent with a MERV 7 filter to 60 percent using a HEPA filter. Increasing filter efficiency above a MERV of 11 does not significantly reduce predicted indoor concentrations of animal dander.
> 
> Medium-efficiency air filters are generally less expensive than HEPA filters and allow quieter HVAC fan operation and higher airflow rates than HEPA filters because they have less airflow resistance. Pleated filters 1 to 2 inches thick that have a MERV of 12 are available for use in homes and may often be installed without modifying residential HVAC systems; however, manufacturer’s information should be checked prior to installation.


So, yes, if instead of using Hepa filters, we take medium-efficiency filters and stack them (several filters in the box)... We could end up with good air filtration without all that flow resistance and not incur high costs doing it (initial and long term routine maintenance)...


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

DaninVan said:


> Maybe I misunderstood you Charles, but wouldn't an 'airtight enclosure' completely defeat the functioning of the system(?).
> On the flat filtration media, I'd come across it in the past while redesigning a veterinary clinic's air handling issues. It was a long time ago but their problem had something to do with micro filtering the air between two rooms, and the exterior.
> I'm pretty sure I found it while doing the Yellow Pages thing, looking for odour abatement or something similar.


I guess I used the wrong choice of terms. The enclosure would be airtight except where the hepa filters allowed air back into the shop. I did a little searching after for hepa filters and some use activated charcoal prefilters which will absorb most odors but they add cost and aren't reusable. My wireless internet is up and down again so it is making the search difficult but I did see some possibilities. Most filters seem to be tied to a particular filtration unit whereas I am hoping to find something similar to a furnace filter.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

That's good information Mike. Reduced resistance is why I was looking for large flat filters where I might use 3 or 4 in the wall of an enclosure to get decent cfm. The filter in the first link was along those lines but too pricey for what I want. Using a stack of MERVs might be the solution according to the article.


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Tonight I will try to post a brainstorm kind of sketch I have in my head... sort of a cabinet, with a Sonotube cyclone, with baffles to a clean-out tray and stacked flat filtered gallery for exhaust...

I have some errands to take care of at the moment.


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## greenacres2 (Dec 23, 2011)

It's been a busy week, and i haven't had time to follow this thread as i would have liked. To answer Mike's original question--when i start on something new, i do a lot of reading and research. But, i'm kind of the same as DanInVan--what i read and research is usually thie work of one of our Mikes, Harry, or BJ (and a cast of many others). 

On the topic of dust collection--that's on of those areas where, thankfully, enough of you have a deep enough understanding of engineering air flow that i can just sort of do what y'all do and i'll be close. (okay, i do a little more than that, but it's sure what it feels like!!)

Thanks for the education that so many of you provide!!

earl


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

One of the cabinet shops I used to use, had a spray lacquer room, and I do mean room, about the size of a dble. garage, that had the wall between the shop and the spray rm. completely panelled with filter media. I'd guess that he had at least 180sq. ft. of filtration ( on the input side) and a very large clg. mounted exhaust fan... explosion proof electricals of course. Somehow I don't think he worried about heat loss.


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Something along these lines?








While I was drawing this up, I remembered that when I was looking for a blower for my forge, that an HVAC company in Oly has their own boneyard... Used ducting, blowers, etc... I'm thinking I might want to visit there one of these days...


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

DaninVan said:


> One of the cabinet shops I used to use, had a spray lacquer room, and I do mean room, about the size of a dble. garage, that had the wall between the shop and the spray rm. completely panelled with filter media. I'd guess that he had at least 180sq. ft. of filtration ( on the input side) and a very large clg. mounted exhaust fan... explosion proof electricals of course. Somehow I don't think he worried about heat loss.


My younger brother was the Manager at a Collision One body shop in Bellevue.. He was custom painting a car in Lacquer, when the ventilator failed and he was overcome. He decided after the L&I settlement to be a stay at home dad with his own home shop...


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

It looks like you're going fully home made instead of a branded DC system like HF or Oneida. What I had in mind was similar to the arrangement you said you got off Bill Pentz's site. It also looks like you are taking flat media and stacking them on top of each other which will increase filtering efficiency but will also increase restriction. I wanted to cover a large area with the filter media to lower the restriction. Much like what Dan described about the paint booth.


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

Mike, to answer your original question, I sit back and allow more knowledgeable people such as your self to do the research and make informed decisions. :dirol:

Threads such as this provide so much information to us Saturday Shed Men.....


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

MAFoElffen said:


> Sidenote- I have to talk with the neighbor tonight about that 10x10 shed. It's going to be on skids, but within 1 foot of the property line between us...


OK, don't leave me hanging. What's the story?

I've read this thread several times, and learn more every time. I anticipate reading it any number of times more, and probably learning more every time. Good work.


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Adding a filter to a afilter would add depth of filtration and add some resistance... But they don't have ahrdly any resritance to start with, but they do add some. That's why, like Dan explained in his post of a wall of filters --> Making the filters into a gallery would lower the resistance... But then I started diving deeper into MERV Ratings and what the mean and translate into...

It seems that a MERV Rating on pleated filters doesn't necessarily mean that a higher MERV rated filter means more resistance.


> Simply stated, a MERV rating represents the efficiency for a filter’s ability to trap certain particles in a laboratory test at a particular point in time. MERV ratings do not indicate a filter’s air flow resistance, average efficiency during use or expected performance in home environments. MERV ratings can be particularly misleading because tests can be manipulated to falsely increase ratings.
> 
> Air flow is critical for proper functioning of air conditioning systems. The greatest factor in air flow reduction has little to do with the filter itself, but how fast air is flowing through it. This is simply a function of filter size. Larger filters allow the same amount of air to pass through more slowly, creating less resistance and better filtration. Because resistance increases exponentially faster than air speed, this can create major problems if the system was built with too small of a filter. When properly sized, almost any high quality filter can be used. More detailed information is below.


Then I started Looking at Nordic Pure MERV 14 filters and their prices.... a 20'hx20'wx5"d of that rating is about $60 each. So 2 filters would be 40"x20x5" pleated, so the filter area... Using someone's else's formula, the math says about 1000cfm each, 2000cfm...? I'd have to call to check that. That seems a little high.

But MERV 14? So I looked to see what The MERV ratings really meant...








Is MERV 14 overkill?


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

What I've read said that you need to get down to .3 micron (.3 ppm). As I mentioned, these can float on air currents for quite a while and most of the DC discussions I've read about say these are the ones that can really do damage. That would indicate a MERV 16. 
However, if you create enough filter surface area a couple of things should start to happen. Air velocity will slow down so as long as the particles don't freely pass through the media then a lower MERV should be almost as effective as a smaller filter with a higher MERV rating. If you stack the filters as you are suggesting then each time a particle strikes the media, even though it initially passes through, it will lose more energy each successive impact and be more likely to be captured before it exits the filter. And as any filter gets dirtier, it filters better. As long as you have enough filter area to keep from causing a pressure restriction on the outlet side then that will work for you.

So I would say that you probably wouldn't need to go finer than MERV 14. Maybe a MERV 11 filter system would be good enough, especially once it got used a little.


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

JOAT said:


> OK, don't leave me hanging. What's the story?


She's come home later than I've been up. Might be a weekend thing.



Cherryville Chuck said:


> It looks like you're going fully home made instead of a branded DC system like HF or Oneida. What I had in mind was similar to the arrangement you said you got off Bill Pentz's site. It also looks like you are taking flat media and stacking them on top of each other which will increase filtering efficiency but will also increase restriction. I wanted to cover a large area with the filter media to lower the restriction. Much like what Dan described about the paint booth.


Like I drew out, sort-of... could just be a cabinet. The inlet to the cabinet could just be like pictured from the Pentz site, with the exhaust from there going to this cabinet, but tried to figure out how to make into one.... 

I figured a cheap 20" x 20" x 1" regular flat fiber filter in the front of the other filter as a pre-filter to weed out the course stuff. That should'nt add nominal resistance to the finer filter and would keep it from loading up as fast.

Inside the fine filter cabinet. Each MERV 14 20"x20"x5" filter handles 1050 cfm. Two separate filters in a wall would handle 2100 cfm. that would take a wall in that enclosure of 40"x20". Figuring the exhaust from that would take about 10"-12"? (That whole exhaust enclosure from the filters on not really needed, but...) I'm thinking it would be better to put the filters in the top of an enclosure...

That would set a gallery of 2 flat filters in a single layer. A MERV 14 filter would have about 11 pleats each. So 2 stretched out... would be around 366 sq ft of filtration. An A-35 Cartridge filter is 274 sq. ft. of filtration. Our 2-3 hp DC's, if pushing well are about 1150 cfm. Putting the filtration at 2000 cfm in those 2 filters...

Well the resistance on MERV 13 thru MERV 16 filter are all 1.4m... but that is measure at 300 - 500 fps of air speed of the air going through the filter. I'm thinking that with the volume being halved, going through 2 filters, and more than adequate square footage of filtration, that it should drop the resistance by more than 4 times... to at least 0.35m... or less than a MERV 1 filter. (According to Pentz and Wynn's calc's, it would be 41.6 times less pressure...)

What does that mean. Well, I'm thinking that theoretically, you could use MERV 16 filters, for surgical quality air (0.3 Microns)... which just the price comparison on filters, being less than half the price of HEPA filters (and HEPA filters have too much resistance), ending up with less resistance than a normal sized normal filter... But it would take up some room to do it with flat filters.

Difference in MERV 13 ($40) through MERV 16 ($70) filters would be the cost. And the resistance tables I found only went up to MERV 16. Looking at the new standards, those standards also only go up to MERV 16, with MERV 16 being equivalent in filtration to a HEPA Filter.

Just seeing how the numbers went...

Notes: (Rules of Thumb...)
400 cfm per ton
200 inches nominal filtration per ton
Scratch- 2000 cfm = 5 tons = 1000 sq in filtration = 83.3 sq ft filtration nominal.
A35 filter is rated at MERV 15:


> Upon startup with a pleated cartridge filter, the first thing you will notice is a huge increase in airflow, as compared to the original bag arrangement. This is due to the large surface area of the cartridge filter. Remember, doubling the surface area of a filter results in a four-fold decrease in pressure. Stock bags offer about 35 sq. ft. of area, so a 100 sq. ft. to 274 sq. ft. cartridge makes a big difference.


*** But with an A35 filter being 274 sq. ft. filtration, MERV 15 (0.5 Microns) and only $109... that makes sense for my short term needs. And ends up as a smaller footprint.


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

But for you... and following the same logic and increasing filter area decreasing the pressure caused by filter resistance...

Although I can't find the rated resistance of these filters, this pair of HEPA filters set into a gallery should work with less pressure than a filter bag...
Air Filters | Filtration Mfg | Hepa Filter, Merv 18, Particle Board, 20"W X 6"D X 24"H - Pkg Qty 2 | B767187 - GlobalIndustrial.com

... but would need a pre-filter, which would add some resistance back in.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

MAFoElffen said:


> But for you... and following the same logic and increasing filter area decreasing the pressure caused by filter resistance...
> 
> Although I can't find the rated resistance of these filters, this pair of HEPA filters set into a gallery should work with less pressure than a filter bag...
> 
> ...


FWW tried running fine filters before the DC but found that the filters plugged too quickly to be practical which is why they tested cyclones to solve that problem. My thinking is that I can install a cyclone inside the shop where the DC is now. Then put the DC outside in an enclosure where it will run as normal with it's bags in place taking care of medium filtration. Then putting some fine filtration leading back into the shop possibly with some pre-filters in front of the fine filters to keep them cleaner. After the air flow exits the DC bags there won't be anything coarse left in the airstream which should allow the fine filters to go a long time before they get plugged up.

Another solution I've toyed with is this E-4250 - K&N Replacement Filters, Replacement Industrial Air Filter direct from K&N (scroll down to see the pre-filter) K&N Airforce Foam Pre-Cleaners for Extending the Service Life of a K&N Air Filter in Extreme Dust 
A layer of this type foam in front of the fine filters will catch most of what's left with the advantage that it can be washed and reused. Back in the day when lots of chainsaws were used in the bush these were very popular. They were far more efficient than the factory filters. When the foam pre-filter got dirty we would just wash them off with saw gas. The main filter would go for a week or two before it would need to be washed and you just used soap and water for it and when dry you would re-oil it. I've even toyed with the idea of using the oiled type but I have a feeling that oil fumes might be a problem for the first little bit after installation.


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## OPG3 (Jan 9, 2011)

Wow! You guys sure have taken this subject to the maximum (or should I say to the minimum?), I think I'm going to buy a nose mask, build an open quonset-style pavilion, build a windmill and power a big fan with said windmill, make a waterfall (as has been used successfully in thread mills for hundreds of years) and also power it with the windmill. Then I will install a wood-burning stove. My neighbors will keep a safe distance away. The sawdust caught by the windmill will be dehydrated and pelletized to be used as fuel for the wood-burning stove. 

Yesterday, there was a new cashier at the hardware store. Everyone there (except her) knows me and knows I am a joker. I asked for information on their solar flashlight. I said what if the sun isn't shining? She said she would check with the manager.

A few days before that I pulled into McDonald's. I told the Drive-Thru Window Girl that I first had a question.. She said "What is your question?". I told her I needed the weight of the "double quarter pounder". She said she would check with the manager.

At the grocery store I used my debit card to pay for my purchases. When I "swiped" my card the machine asked if I wanted any cash-back? I replied "Yes - $30.00". The cashier asked how I would like the $30.00? I said, "How about 2- $15.00 bills?" Honestly, the jackass boy cashier went to the manager's station and asked for 2- $15.00 bills! Sometimes we make simple problems too complex, in my opinion.

Insurance statistics tell us that overheated fan motors are one of the leading causes of house fires. Personally, I am afraid that in an effort to filter our workshop air, we are creating "bottlenecks of dust and heat with oil" - which could be hazardous to your health.

Question: Should cigarette smokers wear seat belts?

Otis Guillebeau from Auburn, Georgia


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

"Should cigarette smokers wear seat belts?"
Nah; it gets in the way when you drop hot ash between your legs...


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

I hear you. And that's how I had envisioned. And any other way and the filters would clog up too fast.... And they are too spendy to allow that to happen.

K&N makes heavy truck filters, but they are around $250. I have a K&N Filter on my diesel pickup and I swear by it. I buy their "renew" kit, which is a bottle of cleaner (rinsed off with water) and a can of light oil. Lifetime filter and no problems with flow. But read on... 

K&N air filters... They dance around what microns they are rated at, even though other air filter companies will publish theirs. The standards they are held to is how much "test dust" a filter can hold before replacement. They do say that most engine wear is from 10-20 micron particles... That is their target. Remembering back to the eruption of Mt. St. Helens.... Volcanic ash is the finest airborne abrasive I know of for engine risk... and that is 10 microns.

Elsewhere, a competitor's (Amsoil) marketing claims saying their own filters are better than K&N's... saying their own filters are good to 98% at 2.0 microns. (Does not stop me from using K&N Air Filters.) That is still "bigger" than the dust we are trying to filter out for us to breath.

After looking at that MERV Rating chart that I posted... again and again... And what the different levels filter out... again I have to ask-- *How fine is overkill?* 

Surgical quality air is MERV 16. Unless you are sensitive or have allergies (Example --> Bill Pentz has severe allergies!)... Or is it the over-accumulation of, that over time builds up? Otherwise, again, _when is fine, fine enough_?

For me, so far I'm not sensitive to wood dust (yet), but I have backflow problems in my DC. I know my 5.0 micron filtration leaves an annoying film in my shop. I know I have a coating of fine wood dust caked in my nostrils at the end of the day. That's the way is been every day for the last 40 years working as a Carpenter. Honestly, until I came here to this forum, I blew my nose and never thought about it. I know that going to a 0.5 micron filter with less back pressure will make my DC work better and also take care of some of that film in my shop and me. I'm glad I'm not a drywaller and don't work with concrete dust!

-- But I also realize that some of my film that is from tooling dust that isn't getting picked up effectively by the DC... Which I am also looking into. I'm still thinking my DC system would be better if outside the shop.

EDIT-- Has anyone here read Bill Pentz'es air cleaner sidenotes for his house? His allergies are severe enough that he has to run his air cleaners inside his house almost constantly, otherwise walking around his house stirs enough for him to be sensitive... even with him making sure everything is clean, walking around with his particle meter, his electric powered dust mask while vacuuming with his Hepa filtered vacuum... He is medically overly sensitive. I feel for him, but thank goodness I'm not him. But also, I thank him for his research on the extremes.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

The last few times I cut mdf all day I began developing flu like symptoms. About 15 years ago I was still fighting forest fires and about 3 days working in wood smoke would also give me flu like symptoms. When I was younger it didn't bother me. I would like to solve the problem but my wallet can only stand so much strain and the very fine filtration is pricey and may be very pricey to maintain. 

I think we are both agreed that outside is better. I had been thinking about that for years now. Cleaner and quieter that way. Heat loss when it is cold is an issue for me but I'm starting to think that if a cost effective way to be able to recycle air isn't to be found then it will be cheaper to exhaust the warm air out. I'm hoping to find adequate filter media that can be cleaned and reused, information the manufactures don't seem to want to share in the product descriptions. I'm sure most want to keep selling you filters.

Based on the chart and our discussion I am thinking a MERV of 11 to 13 should make a major difference so it's just finding the right combination of other factors now.


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Charles- 

Sorry for another chart... 








It's a Canadian Woodworking Forum's compilation of data from a SawMill Creek member's collection of data with a particle meter.. re this post:
MDF Dust Myth Busted??
He got that from sanding with 220 grit paper... Not by cutting, which should be bigger particles of pine, but since MDF is made from particles, not neccessarily bigger particles of MDF... at least in how those tests were done. (My out)


I think what is important in it is a couple things. First that the particles of MDF are an irritant, not necessarily because of the wood used in it, but because of the adhesive binders that hold it together, which contains "_formaldehyde_."

Secondly- Irrelevant of what the guy is saying, because "I know" I get more dust from "cutting" MDF than Pine (maybe because it's made from sawdust)... Is that even with sanding MDF with fine paper, most of the particles are in the 5.0 - 2.0 micron range. Right below that, it drastically falls off between 2.0 to 1.0 microns... Then between 1.0 to 0.5 microns it has a minor spike again, where below that it falls off again. 

Note- Combustible smoke and carbon dust are both at about 0.3 microns. So if you were burning your work...

I'm thinking 0.5 micron filtration should get the majority of MDF being sucked through a DC... But I think the majority of my MDF dust is what is being thrown by my cutters, away from the DC ports (saw blades, shaper cutters, router bits...). Enough that I wear a dust mask while tooling MDF. I don't see the cloud forming from my DC. I see the majority where I'm working.

I know this is a problem with my saw blade guard! ...and I'm looking at either buying another or building something better. I'm thinking an overhead guard.


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

*Otis.....*



OPG3 said:


> Wow! You guys sure have taken this subject to the maximum (or should I say to the minimum?), I think I'm going to buy a nose mask, build an open quonset-style pavilion, build a windmill and power a big fan with said windmill, make a waterfall (as has been used successfully in thread mills for hundreds of years) and also power it with the windmill. Then I will install a wood-burning stove. My neighbors will keep a safe distance away. The sawdust caught by the windmill will be dehydrated and pelletized to be used as fuel for the wood-burning stove.
> 
> Yesterday, there was a new cashier at the hardware store. Everyone there (except her) knows me and knows I am a joker. I asked for information on their solar flashlight. I said what if the sun isn't shining? She said she would check with the manager.
> 
> ...


....how do you get out, without supervision.........:lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

The MERV chart was really good, this one is interesting too. I don't have a problem with sanding either. Maybe as say, the particle size is larger and there is a bag on the sander that is doing some collection. Like you, my biggest issue is the TS while I'm working. I do have a cloud form around the DC when I turn it on. It's older and the bags aren't that fine I suspect. My router table isn't a problem anymore since I boxed in the space behind and over the cutter and attached the shop vac to it.

I have had an idea for a home made guard for it for a while. I was planning on building a plexiglass box that I could hook to the DC and hang it from 4 chains attached to the ceiling for a little height adjustment. I just need to get somewhere I can get the plastic I need. Although PhilP posted a similar idea that hung on an arm that is also a good design and is less likely to get in the way like the chains might. The .5 micron sounds like a reasonable target.


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> ...Although PhilP posted a similar idea that hung on an arm that is also a good design and is less likely to get in the way like the chains might.


I really like that one PhilP posted. I was thinking building that or a twist on that.

Either that or one of these... This one is like the one Phil posted:








This one is a swing-away that has a narrow hood, but has a replaceable hood for doing bevels:








What I like about that design is that because the box stays upright, all 4 sides of the bottom stays close to the table or work, so the DC in the hood is a little more controlled. The hood has roller blade type wheels that the works hits, rolls over the work as the hood slides up a vertical track.

It's at 0:57 in this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=eggoARfvojo


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

The first one does look like Phil's and I like the arm and the fact that it would be easy to lift up out of the way if needed. The laguna might be too tight to the work. There has to be as much gap at the bottom as the cross sectional area of the vac hose. Unless the back were wide open. I didn't look that carefully.


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## OPG3 (Jan 9, 2011)

> ....how do you get out, without supervision.........


James, I rarely do - but Joy has learned to ignore me. When we go shopping - she usually scatters (I cannot imagine why!). Effective dust collection = breathing through one's nose and then careful removal of the buggers that accumulate! My first car was a 1963 VolksWagen. All it had for an air filter was this gizmo that one oiled periodically -so the intake air would funnel inward, circulate around a spiral and dirt, etc, would be accumulated in the oil. It did work, but I never had a MERV rating. Occasionally it would even contain a dead bug - poor bug - within a bug (get it? - VW beetle).

Otis


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

OPG3 said:


> James, I rarely do - but Joy has learned to ignore me. When we go shopping - she usually scatters (I cannot imagine why!). Effective dust collection = breathing through one's nose and then careful removal of the buggers that accumulate! _My first car was a 1963 VolksWagen_. All it had for an air filter was this gizmo that one oiled periodically -so the intake air would funnel inward, circulate around a spiral and dirt, etc, would be accumulated in the oil. It did work, but I never had a MERV rating. Occasionally it would even contain a dead bug - poor bug - within a bug (get it? - VW beetle).
> 
> Otis


1966 1300 deluxe..........? was mine. Bought it in 1969 as my now wife would not hitch hike across Asia to Europe.... I needed a "courtin' car.....:lol: :lol: :lol:

Must have been the VW, as we met in February and got married in Oct ...:dance3:

A VW is one of those "you like them or have never driven them" type of cars....


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## OPG3 (Jan 9, 2011)

My VolksWagen was supposed to be a 40 horsepower, but it turned-out to be a zero horsepower. The engine was blown and needed to be rebuilt, so it cost $200 for the car, $200 to get it removed from the tree that had grown through it, $250 to get the engine rebuilt, blah, blah, blah. It had been parked over a stump. Both were thought to be dead - but the stump came back vigorously and grew threw the floorboard, open windows and canvas sunroof. That was in August of 1969 when I turned 16. My Dad was of the belief that one's first car should be a "junker" so damages were not noteworthy - this proved to be a good plan. My VW had "FlintStone Floorboards" (none) and a literal "rag-top" for a sun-roof. Daddy made me pay-back every penny he had loaned me before any repairs could be made (body work, etc.). We repainted it with spray cans of Rust-O-Leum - and it had the texture of an alligator!

Yep James - I miss that old car, but I still do not know what the MERV rating was!


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## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

OPG3 said:


> My VolksWagen was supposed to be a 40 horsepower, but it turned-out to be a zero horsepower. The engine was blown and needed to be rebuilt, so it cost $200 for the car, $200 to get it removed from the tree that had grown through it, $250 to get the engine rebuilt, blah, blah, blah. It had been parked over a stump. Both were thought to be dead - but the stump came back vigorously and grew threw the floorboard, open windows and canvas sunroof. That was in August of 1969 when I turned 16. My Dad was of the belief that one's first car should be a "junker" so damages were not noteworthy - this proved to be a good plan. My VW had "FlintStone Floorboards" (none) and a literal "rag-top" for a sun-roof. Daddy made me pay-back every penny he had loaned me before any repairs could be made (body work, etc.). We repainted it with spray cans of Rust-O-Leum - and it had the texture of an alligator!
> 
> Yep James - I miss that old car, but I still do not know what the MERV rating was!


Ahh, the good old days! As for MERV rating? Probably negative... made more fine dust than it filtered!


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

I used to _hate_ cleaning those oil bath filters. They were a pain. But looking back, the cars were "simple" to work on. You didn't need to be a scientist to figure them out. 4 bolts and a few wires to drop the motor... so a lot of things it was just easier that way.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Those filters actually worked pretty well. The problem with most of them was that they didn't get maintained. And of course there was all the money that could be made by selling replaceable filters.


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> Those filters actually worked pretty well. The problem with most of them was that they didn't get maintained. And of course there was all the money that could be made by selling replaceable filters.


They didn't do real well for off-road use... LOL


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