# Advice needed first cnc router build



## woodmartin (Dec 25, 2010)

Hello 

This is my firstpost

I am in the early stages of looking at build methods and materials for constructing a CNC router. I envisage it having a work area of approx 500mm x 600mm. I wish to use the machine for engraving, profiling thin sheet of non-ferrous metal and possibly for light machining of wood. The machine is for hobby use only.

Whilst I own a CNC milling machine I am new to CNC routers and would very much appreciate receiving advice on materials to use in constructing the frame, choice of bearings and drive screws etc. 

Thanks

Alan


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## bgriggs (Nov 26, 2008)

metalmartin said:


> Hello
> 
> This is my firstpost
> 
> ...


Alan,

I would be glad to help you answer any specific questions you have about building a CNC. There are many good plans out to accomplish your goal. Your machine is small 19"x24" so the frame won't be difficult. 

Since you have a CNC mill the task is even easier. 

Let me know how I can help.

Bill


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## woodmartin (Dec 25, 2010)

Bill
Thanks for your offer of assistance. My first question concerns material for the frame. Is there a significant difference in rigidity between MDF, Plywood and aluminium extrusions?
I am inclined towards a design with a moving gantry.

Alan


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## bgriggs (Nov 26, 2008)

Alan,

The short answer is yes. However lets look at it a little closer. In the size machine you plan to build, MDF can work nicely and so can a quality plywood such as Baltic Birch ply or Apple ply. When you get beyond about 3' in length MDF will sag under it's own weight. Unless you build some sort of reinforcement into it you will not be satisfied with the repeatability. Certain designs like the Joes 2006 and the Lionclaw fix this with torsion box structures.

Aluminum extrusion will build a stronger frame at a greater cost. You really need to analyze what you plan on making with the machine as your primary product before you decide what materials to make the machine from. All of the materials mentioned will work. Some will work better for a particular application then others.

Bill


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## woodmartin (Dec 25, 2010)

Bill
Thanks for your help. My interests include woodwork and model engineering. The model engineering use would be profiling thin brass sheet and aluminium. I am less certain of the type of woodworking projects it would be used other than sign making, making jigs and cutting joints. 

Considering your advice and my uncertainty on the range of woodworking projects to be undertaken I think it makes sense to bite the bullet and increase the size to 24" x 36"and go for the more rigid construction method. 

Alan


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## bloomingtonmike (Dec 13, 2011)

If Ahren will ship to the UK, a cncrouterparts 4'X4' might be in order or custom order it for 3'X4'. It would be bolt togther for the most part and would be 8020 in construction with steel parts for gantries and rails.

You can go router or spindle and accomplish what you want to cut. 

I personally like rack and pinion machines with slaved motors on the Y axis. 

I own/built a Joes Castcnc machine with a spindle personally.


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## woodmartin (Dec 25, 2010)

Bill

Thanks for the advice, I appreciate the time you are taking to help me. I will look at the webb site and the posibility / cost of importing a cncrouterparts kit whilst also looking at what is available here in the UK. 

I know from using the cnc mill that it is sometimes helpful to be able to change the both the speed and feed rates during an operation to improve cut and finnish. Is it the same in using a router? 

Is a rack and pinion arrangement viable on say a 3 x 4 machine? (I am constrained for space in my shop

Kind regards

Alan


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## Noob (Apr 18, 2009)

If you're up for a DIY build, I would make a knock-off of the Fine Line Automation build using CNCRouterparts parts. If you are in the UK, you should also consider finding a local supplier for the extrusions and cut, drill, and tap yourself. With the money you save from shipping the aluminum extrusions, you could use that money for other items (unless money is not an issue).

If non-ferrous metals are your primary use for this machine, you really ought to look into a SuperPID if you are going to use a router as your spindle. This can control the rpm from 5,000 to 30,000 rpm, which is lower than most routers are capable of doing, yet recommended for cutting aluminum. For example, I think my Porter Cable 690 will only go down to 10,000 rpm.

SuperPID LINK


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## mbr72cnc (Feb 15, 2010)

If interested in building there is many sites on the net that offer kits or plans. I suggest Solsylva dot com for one the other is buildyourcnc dot com. Good luck with your build!


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## bgriggs (Nov 26, 2008)

metalmartin said:


> Bill
> 
> Thanks for the advice, I appreciate the time you are taking to help me. I will look at the webb site and the posibility / cost of importing a cncrouterparts kit whilst also looking at what is available here in the UK.
> 
> ...


Alan,

Another member was the one who recommended the CNCrouterparts machine. I built a Joescnc and think it is nice. However, if you could afford one, the Camaster Stinger would be a nice fit. The stinger is a Rack & Pinion machine.

Personally, I will probably build all my machines because I enjoy it and it saves me some bucks. 

Bill


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## mech-e (Jan 3, 2012)

*cool*

Does anyone have pics of their build?


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## bgriggs (Nov 26, 2008)

I have lots of pictures of my build posted on several forums. I will post a few here but perhaps it would be better if I just did a thread so I don't hijack this one. I plan to post some pictures on my blog as well as here. Obviously my blog will have more details .

Bill


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## woodmartin (Dec 25, 2010)

Bill, Mike, Paulo, Mikie

Thanks for your help. I now need to look in detail at your suggestions and come to a decision on the build design.

Alan


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## Noob (Apr 18, 2009)

mech-e said:


> Does anyone have pics of their build?


I really need to update my build, but there are a few pics here: New CNC build using 80/20 extruded aluminum


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## woodmartin (Dec 25, 2010)

Paul

Paul

Thanks for sharing the pictures. 
The cost of importing parts from the USA, such as the linear motion carriage is high due to post charges and import taxes. Does this type of bearing have a significant advantage over say linear bearings on a supported rail? I can buy the supported rail, ground and hardened in sizes 12mm to 25mm diameter bar, in the UK.

Alan


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## plouf (Jan 8, 2012)

Hi Bill,

I'm interested in the comparison you just made in your post. Does it mean that up to a certain point, Baltic Birch and Apple Ply could fit beyond 3'? Or will they tend to sagging as the MDF?

- plouf -



bgriggs said:


> In the size machine you plan to build, MDF can work nicely and so can a quality plywood such as Baltic Birch ply or Apple ply. When you get beyond about 3' in length MDF will sag under it's own weight.


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## bloomingtonmike (Dec 13, 2011)

Video just after my Cast upgrade

Video of Upgrade to spindle

Video of Cutting with spindle

I also have a ton of build pics on photobucket and in the galleries there (on the right).

BloomingtonMike Photobucket Link


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## bgriggs (Nov 26, 2008)

plouf said:


> Hi Bill,
> 
> I'm interested in the comparison you just made in your post. Does it mean that up to a certain point, Baltic Birch and Apple Ply could fit beyond 3'? Or will they tend to sagging as the MDF?
> 
> - plouf -


plouf,

Essentially the same problem exists with MDF and ply longer than 3 feet. To see what I mean, go to a local lumber yard and select a 4'x 4' sheet of plywood. Suspend it horizontally between two shopping carts and look to see if the board bows. You will notice that it will bow.

Most people design big MDF router tables and don't take this into consideration. However, a properly designed torsion box could solve the problem at the expense of weight. Another solution is some form of metal supports beneath the wood table....

Small routers are great for MDF. Big router require special designing and material selection.

Hope that helps.

Bill


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## Clueless&Luke (Jan 14, 2012)

*hello*

I have just finished my first CNC build 

I can't post a video yet as I need to post 10 time before

I would be happy to help you if I can on finding materials and suppliers I used

as I live in the uk as well

Tom:shout::shout:


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## jlord (Nov 16, 2009)

TomTomthumb said:


> I have just finished my first CNC build
> 
> I can't post a video yet as I need to post 10 time before
> 
> ...


Welcome Tom.
Say hi to 9 more people in the introductions forum & you will have your ten in a matter of minutes.


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## plouf (Jan 8, 2012)

Hi Bill,



bgriggs said:


> Most people design big MDF router tables and don't take this into consideration. However, a properly designed torsion box could solve the problem at the expense of weight.


Thanks for helping! Do you mean an unusual torsion box design? Or the usual kind that some people use to build a very flat and sturdy workbench alternative? 

I like the very idea of a torsion box as a foundation for a cnc, especially if you are not well equipped to work with metal (which is my case, at least for now)...

- plouf -


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## woodmartin (Dec 25, 2010)

Tom
Thanks for your offer of help. I look forward to you posting the video.

Alan


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## bgriggs (Nov 26, 2008)

plouf said:


> Hi Bill,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The usual torsion box like a workbench. Perhaps thinner though. It really depends on what you are building. The Joes 2006 and the Lionsclaw were both torsion box builds.

Bill


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## woodmartin (Dec 25, 2010)

Hi Bill
I now have a clearer idea of what I want to use the machine for. Mainly 2D and 3D woodwork projects. But I also wish to try prototyping for which I need both accuracy and repeatability. Bill in an earlier post you recommended the use of rack and pinion. With my proposed use of the machine would you advise using dual rack and pinion on a cnc router having a cutting area of say 25" x 36” or would you advise using a single central ball screw? When using rack and pinion do you fit anti-backlash double offset pinions to improve accuracy?

Alan


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## bgriggs (Nov 26, 2008)

metalmartin said:


> Hi Bill
> I now have a clearer idea of what I want to use the machine for. Mainly 2D and 3D woodwork projects. But I also wish to try prototyping for which I need both accuracy and repeatability. Bill in an earlier post you recommended the use of rack and pinion. With my proposed use of the machine would you advise using dual rack and pinion on a cnc router having a cutting area of say 25" x 36” or would you advise using a single central ball screw? When using rack and pinion do you fit anti-backlash double offset pinions to improve accuracy?
> 
> Alan


You could do either. I know of a few machines which have a single rack and pinion driving the gantry from beneath the table center. In my experience, the rack &pinion is plenty accurate enough for 99% of all work. If you are milling SMD traces for really tiny electronics you would have to use formulas to determine if the resolution was sufficient. I don't know those formulas off the top of my head though.

No on the ABL pinion unless you can get them cheap.

Bill


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## plouf (Jan 8, 2012)

Hi Bill,



bgriggs said:


> The usual torsion box like a workbench. Perhaps thinner though. It really depends on what you are building. The Joes 2006 and the Lionsclaw were both torsion box builds.Bill


Just looked at the Joes 2006. Now I see exactly what you meant. 

A silly question if I may ask: there are holes in the components of the torsion box separators. Do they follow a specific pattern to make it even more sturdy. Is it a specifically calculated size? 

thanks

- plouf -


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## woodmartin (Dec 25, 2010)

Bill 

Thanks again for your advice.


Alan


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## bgriggs (Nov 26, 2008)

plouf said:


> Hi Bill,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I am not sure why the hole spacing show was chosen. I think mainly it was to lighten the weight of the machine. MDF is a heavy material and that table is a bear.

I don't think the positioning makes a great deal of difference, however the radius on the corners is important. The radius prevent the creation of a stress riser at the cut out location. If all the cuts line up in one place they will be weaker and crack. 

Bill


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## Noob2012 (Feb 5, 2012)

bgriggs said:


> I have lots of pictures of my build posted on several forums. I will post a few here but perhaps it would be better if I just did a thread so I don't hijack this one. I plan to post some pictures on my blog as well as here. Obviously my blog will have more details .
> 
> Bill


Hi, Bill. This is my first post here. It looks like you used SuperStrut for your frame, but what did you use for the top X rail sections, the square stuff? Is that 8020, maybe a 1530 style? I'm looking to do a 4x4' router which will make the frame roughly 5' square. What did the frame cost to build? I look forward to participating in this thread while I finish doing my research and start building.


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## Clueless&Luke (Jan 14, 2012)

I think I only need one more post and I can post a video of my Home made CNC Machine

so this being said THIS IS POST NUMBER 10 

Tom


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## Clueless&Luke (Jan 14, 2012)

*first video*

OK so here I go a link to my first video sorry for the quality but I think the tape got damp as video camera was left it my workshop/garage

I will do a walk around video in the week of my router but please take a look at this video of my machine cutting a dragon in MDF buy the way this is my first carving.

MDF Dragon test_0001.wmv - YouTube

Tom:haha::haha:


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## Noob2012 (Feb 5, 2012)

TomTomthumb said:


> OK so here I go a link to my first video sorry for the quality but I think the tape got damp as video camera was left it my workshop/garage
> 
> I will do a walk around video in the week of my router but please take a look at this video of my machine cutting a dragon in MDF buy the way this is my first carving.
> 
> ...


I'll bet it's great seeing the first output of a build, and can't wait for my own.

P.S: I'm working on my first ten posts here, too.


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## Noob2012 (Feb 5, 2012)

*Ready To Gather Parts*

OK, I've read a couple books (_The CNC Cookbook: An Introduction to the Creation and Operation of Computer Controlled Mills, Router Tables, Lathes, and More_ by Hess and _CNC Machining Handbook: Building, Programming, and Implementation_ by Overby, and I bought the DVD by pdjinc.com.

My machine will be roughly 5' square for 4x4' work output. Sourcing parts via eBay, I've found linear hardware from China (can't _even_ afford US-made here):
2pcs SBR16-300mm rails
4pcs SBR16-1500mm rails
12pcs SBR16UU bearing blocks
1pc RM1605-300mm-C7 with nut and end machined
3pcs RM1605-1500mm-C7 with nuts and end machined

For the electronics, I'll get an Acer laptop and another eBay electronics package:
Full license of Mach 3 Software on CD. 
Full license of Bobcad V21 3D on CD.
1 Gecko G540.
4ea 620 oz/in motors (Single or Dual Shaft).
Latching Red E-Stop Switch.
3 Homing buttons.
3 Current Set Resistors.
4 DB9 Connectors.
4 DB9 Backshell Kits. 
And I'll pick up some cabling and wire run cages.

I'll probably go with a Bosch Colt for the spindle.

I'll see what Corel X5 can do, and try some things with BobCad, but I'm really eyeing a copy of Aspire. I want to do architectural and artistic wood carvings, build furniture, mill cabinets, carve signs, and I have a handful of niche markets I want to explore with this beastie.

On to the frame. I'll either weld up some 2x2x.125 square tubing or go with a bolt-together frame of Unistrut like Bill did, possibly welding it together after it's assembled (while ventilating the zinc fumes.) And I'll see if 5x5' pieces of MDF are available for a bed. 

I already have a nice Griz 1029 dust collection system with vortex trashcan lid for my other woodworking. 

My questions:

What did you guys do to ensure the flatness of the bed? Screw-adjustable glue-ons beneath it or just laid on the support rails?

Do you have any particular framing or building caveats?

Would you suggest a laptop or desktop computer for this? How fast? What OS?

Do you have preferences for a dust collector hood for the router?

Can you anticipate any other questions I might have? 

Onward and upward!


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## bloomingtonmike (Dec 13, 2011)

For a 4X4 machine have you considered rack and pinion setup for X and Y using some 8020? You can buy nema23 rack and pinion kits from cncrouterparts for about $90ea and 20 pitch rack from them or moore gear or mcmastercarr. It may reduce some whip you might have in your screws. They also have some linear carriages that work awesome with 15 series 3030 or 3060 extrusions with some 1/4" steel as the rails.

Also as to the flatness question - square and level your base as much as you can, same with your rails and bed.
Then tram your machine (adjusting the carriages as best you can)
Then surface your MDF/table - this makes the bed parallel to the motion of your router.

Go with a Hitachi M12VC vs the Colt - your machine can handle it.

If you plan to weld stick with box steel over the unistrut. I have had both and the steel base is 10X less jiggly than the C shaped Unistrut. Price is the same too and maybe cheaper for steel if you do the welding. Spring nuts and cone nuts are pricey for unistrut.

You need a power supply on your list and other box components.

I would go with a computer with a built in parallel port running XP if you can find it whatever machine you choose. Personally I do not like laptops on cnc machines but that is just my experiences.

You do not need a CD of Mach - the demo is teh full version. You just need a .lic file to make it the full version.

Check out vectric software as well. Cats Meow to start out with - vcarve pro is pricey but very nice!




Noob2012 said:


> OK, I've read a couple books (_The CNC Cookbook: An Introduction to the Creation and Operation of Computer Controlled Mills, Router Tables, Lathes, and More_ by Hess and _CNC Machining Handbook: Building, Programming, and Implementation_ by Overby, and I bought the DVD by pdjinc.com.
> 
> My machine will be roughly 5' square for 4x4' work output. Sourcing parts via eBay, I've found linear hardware from China (can't _even_ afford US-made here):
> 2pcs SBR16-300mm rails
> ...


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## bloomingtonmike (Dec 13, 2011)

Just to add on about rack and pinion....

if you ever upgrade you can add on to the rack or replace the rack a TON cheaper than replacing screw setups. Just a thought.


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## Noob2012 (Feb 5, 2012)

bloomingtonmike said:


> For a 4X4 machine have you considered rack and pinion setup for X and Y using some 8020? You can buy nema23 rack and pinion kits from cncrouterparts for about $90ea and 20 pitch rack from them or moore gear or mcmastercarr. It may reduce some whip you might have in your screws. They also have some linear carriages that work awesome with 15 series 3030 or 3060 extrusions with some 1/4" steel as the rails.


Given the ghastly price of 8020, I decided that the linear rails and ballscrews weren't much cheaper but were a much better way to go. When I upgrade, it'll be to a big monster machine, I hope.


>Also as to the flatness question - square and level your base as much as you can, same with your rails and bed.
Then tram your machine (adjusting the carriages as best you can)
Then surface your MDF/table - this makes the bed parallel to the motion of your router.

Right, thanks.


>Go with a Hitachi M12VC vs the Colt - your machine can handle it.

Why the Hitachi? More power?


>If you plan to weld stick with box steel over the unistrut. I have had both and the steel base is 10X less jiggly than the C shaped Unistrut. Price is the same too and maybe cheaper for steel if you do the welding. Spring nuts and cone nuts are pricey for unistrut.

Yeah, I'll probably stick with welding up local square tubing.


>You need a power supply on your list and other box components.

Yes, I forgot to list it, Antek PS-4N48R, 48V and 400W.


>I would go with a computer with a built in parallel port running XP if you can find it whatever machine you choose. Personally I do not like laptops on cnc machines but that is just my experiences.

Sounds good to me.


>You do not need a CD of Mach - the demo is teh full version. You just need a .lic file to make it the full version.

Licensed versions of BobCad Express v21 and Mach3 come with the stepper kit.


>Check out vectric software as well. Cats Meow to start out with - vcarve pro is pricey but very nice!

If I spring for Vectric, it'll be Aspire. Only cry once. <sigh>

Thanks for the input, Mike.


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## bloomingtonmike (Dec 13, 2011)

The Hitachi is cheap at about $100US for a 2.25hp router, is 72dB which it makes it one of the quietest routers out there. It also has a lot larger bearings than a colt. It would run 1/2" bits more effectively as well. Use what you want but I would run at least a M12VC with your setup.

With ball screw whip potential and slower speeds I would not rank it far better. The precision is not noticeable in wood from what I have read but I have only ran rack and pinion. I have seen about 50 machines convert to R&P (to gain the extra travel of R&P and to remove the whip and cranky cold starts) from screw and zero the other way. Cammaster and many sub 20K machines run R&P. 

Ebay has the best source for 8020 on the cheap. items in 80 20 8020 Aluminum T-Slot T Slot extrusion 8020 garage sale store on eBay! Many of us use it all the time. again you may have already selected screw but wanted to through that out there as an option again.

Enjoy your build!!


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## Noob2012 (Feb 5, 2012)

bloomingtonmike said:


> The Hitachi is cheap at about $100US for a 2.25hp router, is 72dB which it makes it one of the quietest routers out there. It also has a lot larger bearings than a colt. It would run 1/2" bits more effectively as well. Use what you want but I would run at least a M12VC with your setup.


After reading the reviews, the M12VC sounds good. Precision collets might be a good idea, too. I'll check the DIR once I get one and go from there.


>With ball screw whip potential and slower speeds I would not rank it far better. The precision is not noticeable in wood from what I have read but I have only ran rack and pinion. I have seen about 50 machines convert to R&P (to gain the extra travel of R&P and to remove the whip and cranky cold starts) from screw and zero the other way. Cammaster and many sub 20K machines run R&P. 

I don't think 4' is long enough for 16mm ball screw shafts and doubt there will be much whip, if any. What are your thoughts on timing belts vs r&p? They seem to have less to go wrong than r&p.


>Ebay has the best source for 8020 on the cheap. stores.ebay.com/8020-Inc-Garage-Sale items in 80 20 8020 Aluminum T-Slot T Slot extrusion 8020 garage sale store on eBay! Many of us use it all the time. again you may have already selected screw but wanted to through that out there as an option again.

Given the cost of 8020 and rack and pinion setups, the Chinese ballscrews and linear rails don't look bad at all. I knew there was a reason for my looking at them. They should last a lot longer, too. Precision stuff just doesn't wear like regular parts.


>Enjoy your build!

I look forward to it. The BobCAD guy talked me into a package deal for a cheap price. I have a full package of BobCAD v24, all the training CDs, and BobART Pro, and he says BobART Pro is as good as Aspire. We'll see about that...but the price was great.

The motors and drive package is on its way, too.

I'm awaiting a reply from John @ Antek for the supply.


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## Garyk (Dec 29, 2011)

Alan,
Check out solsylva.com. I bought plans for the 25" x 25" machine and it is pretty straight forward in the building process. 
Gary


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