# Surprise: Bits w/ Lifetime Warranty



## Joe Lyddon (Sep 11, 2004)

I was just browsing the Rockler site, took a look at my "wish list", and landed on a bit I had added some time ago.

I've seen their Guarantee many times BUT have never really thought much about it...




> *Get a great deal on these superior bits!
> Buy 3 or more and get 10% off, or buy 6 or more and get 15% off.
> 
> 
> If you are not 100% satisfied with these bits, send them back for a refund.*



Just for the heck of it, I decided to call them... I asked the question:

*"I see your warranty doesn't have a time limit on it... Does that mean I can use or just have one of your router bits for any time period, if am unhappy with it for any reason, including dropping and breaking one or it just gets dull, I can call you, return it, and get a refund?"*

He had to check it with his superiors... but he ended up saying 
*"YES! but, most of the time, they will just replace it... depending on the situation."*

I thought that was pretty amazing... I was surprised to hear that...

I felt that I should pass this on...

Did you know that?! If not, now you do!

This is what I was looking at...
http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=11322&sid=AFF17


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## scottv11 (Aug 22, 2007)

WOW I wonder how long that will last?
I checked several of different bits at random and all had the same guarantee.
I have had good luck with them. I put them in the middle between MCLS (worse) and Freud (best)

Scott


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## Joe Lyddon (Sep 11, 2004)

scottv11 said:


> WOW I wonder how long that will last?
> I checked several of different bits at random and all had the same guarantee.
> I have had good luck with them. I put them in the middle between MCLS (worse) and Freud (best)
> 
> Scott


Scott, they have had that warranty for YEARS... I've noticed it, years ago & since, but I had never paid much attention to it... till now... Something made me call them to clarify it...

Quite honestly, I don't very many of their bits... most are MLCS!  

Will have to try some... some day...


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hey Joe

That's good to know  Thanks

I have box full of use router bits, I guess I will dig out the blue Rockler ones and see if they will replace them  , I must have 20 or 30 or so of the Rockler ones...and the other ones they sale ,the gray painted ones ,10ea. of them I think they are Amana brand I think...some I have taken the bearnings off of them, I wonder if they will give me a new one for them...that was the only good part left after the bit drop dead.

Most stores don't warranty any type of cutting tools like drill bits, router bits,saw blades,etc. but will warranty them if they got out the door and got by the QC dept. at one time I sold Snap-On tools and that was true for that brand, cutting tools, no warranty...  they sold the best but if you brake them ,WELL....

But it looks like pastic bag time and a trip to the Rockler store with a copy of your post, and maybe I will get some replaced....

Thanks
I will let you know how I make out.. 


Bj 





Joe Lyddon said:


> I was just browsing the Rockler site, took a look at my "wish list", and landed on a bit I had added some time ago.
> 
> I've seen their Guarantee many times BUT have never really thought much about it...
> 
> ...


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## Doyle (Mar 20, 2007)

WOW - Joe
I noticed that also but never gave it much attention.
It would be worth a try. I am the unfortunate one, as I live several hundred miles away from any Rockler store. Router bits become dull after use. I wonder about Sears, now that I am thinking about it. I have some dull sears bits that I purchased over 20 years ago - hmmmmm just thinking.
Thanks for the post
Take care
Doyle


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## Rolf Maxa (Feb 8, 2005)

Thanks Joe for pointing that out. I never noticed that offer, that's a great deal. I'm looking forward to hear how BJ makes out.
I'm surprised that Woodcraft does not offer a similar offer.


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## Joe Lyddon (Sep 11, 2004)

bobj3 said:


> Hey Joe
> 
> That's good to know  Thanks
> 
> ...


I take it that you are unsatisfied with all of those bits?  

... for what reason are you dissatisfied?


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Joe 

Most are just plain dull and some have chips out of the carb.blade.

The only Rockler bit I have now is a 1/2" x 2 1/2" long,,, it still cuts well but I don't use it much any more... I don't recall how much it was but it was not a cheap bit, I'm thinking about 45.oo bucks...




Joe Lyddon said:


> I take it that you are unsatisfied with all of those bits?
> 
> ... for what reason are you dissatisfied?


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hey Joe


Here's a update on the Rockler bit warranties ...

Well I took my box of Rockler bad bits down to the store,,,all 34 of them...
I put the box on the couter and the guy said what do we have here, I told him and he called the boss over,, the boss started to take the bits out of the box and started to put them in two stacks, and I said Great, I'm going to get some more bits ... then he said you can have this pile sharpen and this pile are just plain junk,,, but then I said about the warranty ?, he said are you the guy that called me, I said Yes,,,, he said like I said on the phone the warranty, it's like a tire warranty, if you ware them out I can give you a free replacement , I may give you one for the broken bit but that's about only one....and I'm not to sure about that one... and I said OK can suggest some one to sharpen them, YES, but they are going to be about the same as a new bit.. plus they will be smaller than they are now...and I said OK how much smaller and he said it's hard to tell you that....we send them out...but you can have them call you b/4 they do the job...

Real nice guys at Rockler but they need to go by the company rules just like we all do.

So the bottom line is I got one free one and I did buy some more tools
and I didn't have them sharpen, back in the box with all the other ones I have in the shop..

============


bobj3 said:


> Hey Joe
> 
> That's good to know  Thanks
> 
> ...


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## Joe Lyddon (Sep 11, 2004)

bobj3 said:


> Hey Joe
> 
> 
> Here's a update on the Rockler bit warranties ...
> ...


Thank you Bob.

I will be calling Rockler tomorrow, when Management is present, to hopefully get an answer on this "Unconditional Guarantee".


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Rolf, Woodcraft has a 100% money back guarantee on their bits. By the same token if you have used a bit and it has performed well and needs sharpening then I would not expect them to replace it with a new bit. If a bit is defective in any way or breaks then I would expect a replacement. Fair is fair.


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## Joe Lyddon (Sep 11, 2004)

Mike said:


> Rolf, Woodcraft has a 100% money back guarantee on their bits. By the same token if you have used a bit and it has performed well and needs sharpening then I would not expect them to replace it with a new bit. If a bit is defective in any way or breaks then I would expect a replacement. Fair is fair.


Mike,

Rockler's website clearly states

*"Unconditional Guarantee!
If you are not 100% satisfied with these bits, send them back for a refund."*

It appears to NOT be true... will know tomorrow...

If I were doing it, I would word it:

*"If you are not 100% satisfied with these bits under normal usage, send them back for a refund."* ... and I would have an asterisk (*) linking to the finer points of exactly what their Guarantee does / doesn't cover.

I think I would question Woodcraft the same way about their warranty... I think they would change their tune too...

If their wording is like the current Rockler Guarantee, it's a lifetime satisfaction guarantee against dullness, breakage, ANYTHING!!

*It's what they're saying... vs what they're doing that bothers me...*

*They should say it like it is... and live up to it.*  

Not saying it like it is one way, then weasle out of it...


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Joe, I think the semantics should be left to lawyers and common sense should apply. This is like the signs McDonald's had to post to say their coffee is hot. I am sick to death of this type of argument. When a product performs as it should there is no reason to penalize the merchant who sells it. A defective product should be replaced at no charge. Any tools with cutting edges wear down. They require sharpening or replacement. This applies to drill bits, saw blades, router bits, chisels, taps, scissors, cutlery and razor blades to name a few. BJ had a bit that broke and he got a replacement, no questions asked so Rockler lived up to the intent of the warranty. Bits that had normal wear and tear and required sharpening were not covered. This is reasonable. The guarantee does not state that the bit will never dull or need sharpening. If it did then the situation is changed. If it has served its intended purpose for a normal life span then you should be satisfied. And that is what the guarantee is about. When people expect a guarantee to be something other than what is intended it ends up costing everybody more money. I for one am pleased with the performance of the bits I have purchased from both Rockler and Woodcraft. I know they are not premium bits and do not expect miracles. Only old women and lawyers worry about details like this Joe, why not make more sawdust and enjoy life instead?


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Mike, I was very tempted to add a post similar to what you have done, however, I felt sure that I would have been vilified by the odd member or two.


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## Joe Lyddon (Sep 11, 2004)

Mike said:


> Joe, I think the semantics should be left to lawyers and common sense should apply. This is like the signs McDonald's had to post to say their coffee is hot. I am sick to death of this type of argument. When a product performs as it should there is no reason to penalize the merchant who sells it. A defective product should be replaced at no charge. Any tools with cutting edges wear down. They require sharpening or replacement. This applies to drill bits, saw blades, router bits, chisels, taps, scissors, cutlery and razor blades to name a few. BJ had a bit that broke and he got a replacement, no questions asked so Rockler lived up to the intent of the warranty. Bits that had normal wear and tear and required sharpening were not covered. This is reasonable. The guarantee does not state that the bit will never dull or need sharpening. If it did then the situation is changed. If it has served its intended purpose for a normal life span then you should be satisfied. And that is what the guarantee is about. When people expect a guarantee to be something other than what is intended it ends up costing everybody more money. I for one am pleased with the performance of the bits I have purchased from both Rockler and Woodcraft. I know they are not premium bits and do not expect miracles. Only old women and lawyers worry about details like this Joe, why not make more sawdust and enjoy life instead?


Mike, I agree with you 100% *EXCEPT. they said Unconditionally!*

They qualified their guarantee...

Unconditionally, to me, means just that... without a time limit!

If one of their bits got dull, what I thought to be too fast, it should cover sharpening. Normal use dulling, I agree with you...

But, that's NOT what they say.


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## Joe Lyddon (Sep 11, 2004)

Joe Lyddon said:


> Thank you Bob.
> 
> I will be calling Rockler tomorrow, when Management is present, to hopefully get an answer on this "Unconditional Guarantee".


OK, I just got off the phone with "Ro", Rosieland.

I explained what had happened, etc.

She told me it was for a period of 90 days, which is stated under some questions section on the website... she couldn't tell me exactly where to find the questions. I suggested that the Unconditionally Guaranteed graphic be linked to the clarifications, wherever they were... She agreed that would be a good thing to do.

When it comes to router bits, depending on the problem, they will want to look at the bit(s) to determine if there was obvious abuse, defective, etc. and they would either replace, fix, or give refund... their choice.

If a person makes it a habit of returning bits every 3 months for a refund, they will "catch on" and stop the action... possibly losing a customer.

In General, they will strive, to the best of their ability, to make the customer happy as they have done for years.

I did happen to stumble on this link... that describes their guarantee, and other things, in detail. (clicked on the Man & Gal picture on Home page)
http://www.rockler.com/faq_ordering.cfm##SatisfactionGuarantee

So, that wraps this subject up...

It's Unconditional, subject to their fine conditions, etc. only for 90 days.
They will make you happy... if they can... as they have done in the past.

Sorry, if this has upset anyone... I had to find out... and it ballooned into more than I expected.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Joe Lyddon said:


> Mike, I agree with you 100% *EXCEPT. they said Unconditionally!*
> 
> They qualified their guarantee...
> 
> ...


Just a final word Joe, unconditional is nothing to do with time, it simply means without conditions, ie: if within the stated period you have ANY complaint then it will be addressed, ie: replaced, repaired or a refund.
As you would say Joe "end of story"
Now let us find a new one!


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## Drugstore Cowboy (May 17, 2007)

Joe Lyddon said:


> . . . If a person makes it a habit of returning bits every 3 months for a refund, they will "catch on" and stop the action... possibly losing a customer. . . .


That's becoming a trend in retail -- 'blacklisting' --- individual customers who abuse the policy or just tightening their return policies for everyone.

Unfortunately there ARE people who will 'buy' a suit or a dress etc or a tool to wear or use for one special purpose or event -- then return it. Or pull other tricks. I dogged shoes for a couple of years for a company who garunteed our uppers would outlast the soles. And I took back more than a few pair that had obviously been sanded or ground off --. 

"No good deed ever goes unpunished." Sure as a store tries to be supportive and helpful -- SOME people are determined to ruin it for the rest of us.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Cowboy, do you realise that we have agreed THREE times in the last few days, this must mean that we are starting to understand each other's thought trains which can only be a good thing for the forum.


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## herbfellows (Oct 24, 2007)

Absolutely correct, fair is fair. Though Rockler, for their part, should have this worded better. After all, they are a large company and should have the legal talent to write a warranty correctly. i think we all know what was intended and that should rule the day.


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## Jean-Marc (Apr 23, 2011)

Hi every body,
Since it's a topic on router bit, inorder not to make another topic, I will ask my question here.
I am looking after a pointed bit, to make freehand routing for out set letters and small intricate routing.
I know that it's very difficult to have it. ( see photo)
Is there a possibility to buy other standard bit and transform it into a pointed bit.

Thanks and best regard,

Jean-Marc


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Router Forums - View Single Post - Need source for small/long bits

CarveWright :: Bits :: Carbide :: 1/16" Carving Bit
=========



Jean-Marc said:


> Hi every body,
> Since it's a topic on router bit, inorder not to make another topic, I will ask my question here.
> I am looking after a pointed bit, to make freehand routing for out set letters and small intricate routing.
> I know that it's very difficult to have it. ( see photo)
> ...


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## jschaben (Jun 21, 2009)

Jean-Marc said:


> Hi every body,
> Since it's a topic on router bit, inorder not to make another topic, I will ask my question here.
> I am looking after a pointed bit, to make freehand routing for out set letters and small intricate routing.
> I know that it's very difficult to have it. ( see photo)
> ...


Hi - Just another option
MLCS Dish Cutters, V-Groove, Sign Lettering, Router Letter Template Set, Sign Carving


It may be possible, but, I doubt advisable, to try to reconfigure bits


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## 197761 (May 2, 2017)

As mentioned before, it's nearly impossible to get through all the threads, but I am always looking to see what knowledge I can pull out of them. I lit up when I saw this one but it's no longer true:

FAQs

Returns: Our Guarantee of Satisfaction

We are proud of the quality of our products, and stand behind them 100%. If for any reason you are not satisfied with the merchandise you ordered, just return it within 90 days to receive a refund in the manner of original payment. Your order will come with a return form with convenient instructions, or you may send your returns directly to Returns Department, Rockler Woodworking and Hardware, 4365 Willow Drive, Medina, MN 55340. You may also return purchases to a Rockler store near you.


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Woodcraft used to have a lifetime satisfaction offer on their house brand bits. Bits they sell today are labeled "Wood River" and I think they have the 90 day return like Rockler. I bring this up because a bit that is labeled "Woodcraft" should always qualify for an exchange if not a refund. The replacement bit would only have the 90 day coverage but it's still better than a sharp stick in the eye.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

WoodRiver?! THIS WoodRiver?
Wood River Hand Planes - FineWoodworking
Perhaps they're trying to establish a quality benchmark? Sounds promising.


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