# Fire safety, small shop must have, cheap and safe



## BCR (Mar 30, 2009)

I am sure this is has been done to death, but heads up for cheap safety.
I just had to replace old Fire Extinguisher, since it was due (it was a few years old and was reading low.)

So for just 16.99 be safe and buy a few (I have 3 of these)
And so you know, it is plenty for a small fire. See pics for size estimate/comparison.

Link to Amazon at this price it's better to be safe than sorry (unless your looking to get insurance payoff, *that is a joke*)
*Standard Home Fire Extinguisher*


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

The trick to beating any fire is to hit it quick while it's still small. If you do that very little is required to put it out. Wait too long and nothing can put it out. Many people thing the fire department is there to save their house from burning down but their goal is actually to keep the houses on either side from burning down. If you want to save yours you probably need to keep it down until they get there.


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

My shop is 8X12, and only have one electric tool plugged in at a time. So I figure some plastic bottles of water will work just fine. Tool catches fire, unplug, and pour water on it. Never happened yet, but water can be stashed in several places, so some is instantly available, and the cost is pretty much zip.


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## kp91 (Sep 10, 2004)

Gotta love the auto fire extinguishers (AKA Fire Extinguishing Balls)






Samsung made them in flower vases (think pencil holder in the shop!)


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## BCR (Mar 30, 2009)

Yeah, I'll pass on the balls. Seeing that kid roll it and run made me think did he even look to see if he rolled it to hard and it rolled right back out of fire.


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

kp91 said:


> Gotta love the auto fire extinguishers (AKA Fire Extinguishing Balls)


They used to make something like that around 1900, I think it was. Believe I might have seen them on Antique Roadshow, along with other fire fighting antiques. Had never heard of them before. Glass balls, filled with something or other. Interesting, but they didn't remain in vogue for long apparently. Guessing they didn't work that great. But remember, history always repeats itself, especially not so good ideas.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Good idea to get a couple. I have a water hose available in seconds, but since I have multiple devices plugged in, an extinguisher is a good idea. We just had a burn victim speak at our senior group talk about her medical experience. Nasty stuff.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Good points Brian . I see you also know your fences . I had a Bies before to , great investment


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## BCR (Mar 30, 2009)

Yeah that is the older style fence, before they were made in china. The newer ones, I hear are really poorly made (from online reviews.)

But yes, I see no reason why someone would use water, considering for under 17 dollars shipped, to your door, you can have piece of mind.
Maybe its just me...… Worry wort, I think not. If that was the case, I would have a SawStop. but that is not 17.00


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

The pyrene extinguishers are much more effective than water at extinguishing fires. They lay down a blanket that continues to suppress the fire after the container is empty. Plus they are good for class A, B, and C fires. Water is good for class A but it's the last thing you want to put on a B or C class fire.


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> The pyrene extinguishers are much more effective than water at extinguishing fires. They lay down a blanket that continues to suppress the fire after the container is empty. Plus they are good for class A, B, and C fires. Water is good for class A but it's the last thing you want to put on a B or C class fire.


...or Class D - metals...


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## neville9999 (Jul 22, 2010)

I have one handy in the workshop, maybe I should have two of them. N


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## kp91 (Sep 10, 2004)

neville9999 said:


> I have one handy in the workshop, maybe I should have two of them. N


Mine are located on opposite sides, right near the doors. 

Also have 135 degree heat detector (not smoke detector) in the space for early warning.


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## CharleyL (Feb 28, 2009)

JOAT said:


> They used to make something like that around 1900, I think it was. Believe I might have seen them on Antique Roadshow, along with other fire fighting antiques. Had never heard of them before. Glass balls, filled with something or other. Interesting, but they didn't remain in vogue for long apparently. Guessing they didn't work that great. But remember, history always repeats itself, especially not so good ideas.



Those glass balls were filled with carbon tetra chloride. They put fires out very well, but it was later discovered that when it hits hot metal in a fire it turns into phosgene, a nerve gas, and something that you absolutely don't want to inhale.

Remember the old brass extinguishers that had a T handle on one end and a little nozzle on the other? These contained carbon tetra chloride too. 

The best portable fire extinguishers today are those dry chemical extinguishers that are rated ABC, but one the size of the ones in the photos won't handle a fire much larger than a burning waste can. These will fight any fire that you may have, even an electrical fire safely, but burning metal fires, like magnesium fires, require a completely different type of fire extinguisher.

It's also very important to remember to shoot the extinguisher at the base of the fire, and not into the center or top. You want the fire extinguisher chemical or water to separate the fire from the material that is burning and cool the material that is burning. You need to separate the fire from the material. Remove the heat, fuel source, or the oxygen and it will go out.

Charley


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

another plan is *Purple-K (PKP)...*
but straight water is usually not the best plan of the week... or is the LAST order of business.....

but then there's sawdust fires which are a Class *A* fire.... (BTDT/VOE)
Sawdust is highly combustible.
There are a lot of components like electrical wiring, a short spark from metal objects colliding and chemicals during woodworking projects that can quickly ignite a sawdust pile.
Sawdust burns hot and with very little smoke -- combustion is pretty thorough, so you just get to see heat waves and material blackening.
This is why they are often detected a day late and a dollar short..

I had one in my TS. Smelled it, there wasn't any smoke. Definitely scary.
I'm sure glad I found it before quitting time.

Open it up, spread it out, and wet it down. Outdoors if at all possible.
Fill the DC collection drum w/ water.
One in the TS is another whole ballgame..
Like I said before..
Skip the floor sweep plan...

Sawdust fires can indeed be hard to fight. First you are dealing with a very combustible product. Second if it's conveyed to a dust collector with all the ingredients for a fire and deflagration. All that is needed is a spark to complete the Fire Triangle. As per NFPA 664, a listed Spark Detection & Extinguishing System in the conveying system is a very effective tool in preventing this type of fire. Third, saw dust is typically stored in a silo or bin with enough volume that it is hard to extinguish any embedded embers or fires not matter how good your sprinkler or deluge system, because the water will tunnel through the material instead of wetting it thoroughly and consistently. And fourth, with enough combustible dust disbursed within the vessel, as you empty it you create an increasingly explosive atmosphere . Firefighters are at risk of injury when opening a dust collector or storage vessel as they are adding oxygen to a combustible dust cloud with an embedded ember.


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## Larry42 (Aug 11, 2014)

Forget the water unless you have an 1.5" hose with a fog nozzle. Fire extinguishers are much more affective. Turn them over and give them a good shaking once in awhile to keep the powder from caking. I've been through the Navy fire fighting training twice and was on a ship that had an engine room fire that burned a lot of fuel oil. I was badly burned as an 8 year old. Still have the scars and memories. Be safe!


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## Danman1957 (Mar 14, 2009)

I have 3 in my shop, 2 as shown and another for chemical fires. A must in all shops for sure.


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## kp91 (Sep 10, 2004)

Larry42 said:


> Forget the water unless you have an 1.5" hose with a fog nozzle. Fire extinguishers are much more affective. Turn them over and give them a good shaking once in awhile to keep the powder from caking. I've been through the Navy fire fighting training twice and was on a ship that had an engine room fire that burned a lot of fuel oil. I was badly burned as an 8 year old. Still have the scars and memories. Be safe!


The "old days" we used low velocity fog as a shield for the attack team when confronting a fire, and CO2 or Halon of we couldn't knock it down quick.

Newer commercial vessels now use a High velocity Mist system, which works a lot like a CO2 system (or steam smothering system) but is less likely to extinguish personnel in the compartment. i haven't seen any real-world case studies that show the good/bad of these systems yet.


https://www.marioff.com/water-mist/gas-suppression-vs-hi-fogr


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

What made me think of the Metals Class D was fighting Volkswagen engine compartment fires (many, many moons ago). We covered about 20 miles of major interstate roads so when a car fire was called in we typically didn't get to it for 10 minutes or more.

In those days (don't know about now) when a belt flew off in a VW it typically slapped the fuel line/filter. As a result of the belt being off, the engine would overheat terribly, eventually catching fire with the gas having sprayed in the engine compartment.

Typical firefighter tactics is to "put the wet stuff on the hot stuff"...but with these VW engines (I think Magnesium) if the metal caught, it was too late for water...BOOM...the burning metal doesn't like water and the poor guy at the "head of the line" would likely get knocked on his a$$. Dry powder/Purple-K is the way to go...with the frequent maintenance of turning it over a few times to break up the powder (as was mentioned above).

No reason to go with water in the shop unless it is definitely Class A. A small CO2, properly applied at the base of the fire source, is a much better general extinguisher. Equally important is to shut down all the electric sources...applies to any fire, however small, in the shop. Slap that breaker, dial 911 and then hit it with the right firefighting tool. If the fire gets bigger than your extinguisher can handle, watch it from the front lawn. Nothing is more important than your life.

I was in submarines (diesel, fast attack, missile) and the last thing any of us wanted was a fire. Fire equals smoke, smoke equals can't see/breathe. The same thing would happen in a small shop...you would be surprised how much smoke develops in a short time.

On my boat I carry CO2's in all compartments and walkways and two powder's for the engine room. My garage/shop is fitted with CO2's.

When a fire does occur in your shop, carefully consider the fire triangle before applying any firefighting tactics...do you want to remove HEAT, FUEL or OXYGEN...? 

Great topic...very glad it came up.


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## BCR (Mar 30, 2009)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> The pyrene extinguishers are much more effective than water at extinguishing fires. They lay down a blanket that continues to suppress the fire after the container is empty. Plus they are good for class A, B, and C fires. Water is good for class A but it's the last thing you want to put on a B or C class fire.


I was going to mention the same thing. But most people know that water on electrical or grease is bad. But if they want to use water, then so be it.

Yes, these 17.00 dollar cheap piece of mind are all ABC rated.


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## BCR (Mar 30, 2009)

Danman1957 said:


> I have 3 in my shop, 2 as shown and another for chemical fires. A must in all shops for sure.


Yeah, my sentiments exactly. These are a must in all small shops.
I do not say big shops, as most of them will be business class, and will have MANDATORY fire safety cabinets as well extinguishers.

Anyway, may not be back for awhile to answer any PM's or the like, due to Dorian (grey)….
Looks as though it is headed - centered at me here in SoFlo. I live pretty far out west, but winds get bad here, so the house I have been shuttering up all day (as much as I can, work).


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

I have one installed in the back of the Ute...

Bought it mainly for fire protection in the camper trailer....(Propane (Gas) stoves etc..)


Only a small one like in the picture. I did read that it should be at least double that size to be really effective....


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Good luck Brian. According to the forecast I heard tonight you have until Monday.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

good luck Brian w/ your meteorological calamity...


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

BCR said:


> Yeah, my sentiments exactly. These are a must in all small shops.
> I do not say big shops, as most of them will be business class, and will have MANDATORY fire safety cabinets as well extinguishers.
> 
> Anyway, may not be back for awhile to answer any PM's or the like, due to Dorian (grey)….
> Looks as though it is headed - centered at me here in SoFlo. I live pretty far out west, but winds get bad here, so the house I have been shuttering up all day (as much as I can, work).


Be safe with the storm...take no chances...hope all goes well for you...


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## Danman1957 (Mar 14, 2009)

Good luck with the storm Brian


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

You guys seem to be copping it all ways this season.


Hope no members badly affected..


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## CharleyL (Feb 28, 2009)

The only safe way to put out a propane or city gas fire is to turn off the gas. If you put the fire out and don't stop the gas flow quickly, it will find another ignition source and re-light, possibly causing a bigger fire and/or explosion in the process. You don't want to be there when this happens. Control the fire so nothing else burns, but don't put it out.

Purple K fire extinguishers are intended for burning metal fires. They are expensive, and not very good at fighting any other kind of fire. We carried 1 Purple K extinguisher on each engine, and used them mostly when we had a VW hatchback engine fire, because the fan part of the engine was made from magnesium and was very difficult to put out any other way. Many times it was necessary to chop out the burning metal and bury it to put it out because even the Purple K didn't work well enough, and at least two engines responded to every auto accident or vehicle fire, one of them being a tanker/pumper, so we brought over 2,500 gallons of water with us, and at least two Purple K extinguishers. 

Fire Classifications -

A = burning wood and paper

B = burning liquids

C = burning electrical fires (best to turn off electrical source first, in which case it 
becomes more of a class B fire) 

D = Burning metal

Carbon Dioxide fire extinguishers are great for class B and C fires, but they are heavy. Their one big advantage is that they don't make a mess like dry chemical extinguishers do. 

Water is a great class A fire extinguisher.

When using a fire extinguisher, get as close as you can to the fire and use the extinguisher to sweep the fire off of the burning material much like you would use a push broom. Be careful not to allow it to sneak back around either side as you advance, and continue until the fire is completely out. Then back away carefully until you are safely out of the involved area. Fires can re-light, so be prepared not to allow it to get behind you as you back away.


Don't keep your fire extinguisher right next to the most probable sources of fire. Locate it near your exit point. 

That way, as you are running away from the fire, you can decide to turn and fight the fire with the fire extinguisher, or decide that it's too big to fight and continue running away, hopefully toward a phone or alarm call box to get help. A fire extinguisher that is located close to the likely fire source could be in the fire, and it will do you no good, since it won't fight the fire without you operating it.

An untrained person will not operate a fire extinguisher correctly, so their chances of successfully putting a fire out by using a small fire extinguisher, like the 2 1/2 lb in the photo above, because they will waste most of the few seconds that the extinguisher will deliver the extinguishing agent. They will spray it at the fire and smoke rather than at the base of the fire, or they will begin shooting the extinguisher from too far away for it to be effective. If used properly and under all of the right conditions, that 2 1/2 lb dry chemical extinguisher can put out a fire in a trash can and not much larger. If it's a bigger fire than that, your chances will be significantly reduced, especially if you have had no experience using a fire extinguisher. 

I have two 10 lb dry chemical ABC extinguishers and one 20 lb CO2 extinguisher in my shop, all located next to the exit doors. I also have a water faucet and a 50' garden hose and nozzle on the outside of the shop between the exits. The nearest manned fire station to my home and shop is also only 2 1/2 miles away. My kitchen has a 10 lb ABC dry chemical located in it near the door, and my garage has a 10 lb dry chemical ABC plus a 20 lb CO2 extinguisher located just inside and between the two garage doors. There is also a pressurized water extinguisher in both the first and second floor hallways.

I was a volunteer fireman from the age of 18, working my way up to Captain of a 6 vehicle fire company. For my last 7 years, before my first retirement at the age of 58, I was the fire marshal for a 3.8 million sq ft manufacturing facility located on 1,364 acres. I managed 5 fire technicians who maintained and tested all of the fire equipment in the facility. 

I have a deep respect for fire, and the damage that it can do. I've probably a bit over protected my family, home, and shop, but I feel comfortable in the fact that I have fire extinguishers placed near my family and me, so we can minimize any fire damage to our property until help arrives. The farther you are away from your nearest fire company, the more protection that you should have because you won't likely have any help for at least 5 minutes and in rural areas this could be 35 minutes or more. I've arrived at structure fires before the trucks have arrived and made significant progress using only a garden hose, or even snow to fight the fire, until the trucks got there. 

Charley


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## Larry42 (Aug 11, 2014)

The Navy had purple K extinguishers that were flat amazing on how they put out fires. Never have seen them in civilian places??


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## BCR (Mar 30, 2009)

Thanks fellows for your concerns. I am fine, the most we had here was a few trees knocked over, and a little mess (thankfully) I dodged a bullet, but perhaps others may have not, this has (and still is) been a very bad storm. Bahamas, oh wow, I feel bad for them.

Again thanks for your concern, back on topic.

Yes, finally got around to hanging the FE, changed places, it is far away from all machinery, and is right next to door opening (it's farthest away from all tools, but in a spot I will see it every time I use shop, so will know where it is in a hurry (emergency, that hopefully I will never need).

On another note: I decided to pick up a 4th can, so I can spread these all out evenly throughout house. Still at a price, in comparison to other brands that only do a B +C fire for 50.00 dollars that have a 2.5 pound use.

Oh yeah, for these, they are 5 pounders for 16.99 since I have so many, I felt that I did not need a single 10 or 20 pounder. (with luck, I wood get to the fire quick enough).
Yes that was a bad pun.


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

Mine arrived today,3 of them .I will mount them tomorrw. Thanks for starting this thread. I had completely forgot about FE's.
Herb


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## CharleyL (Feb 28, 2009)

Yes, you want to have the right fire extinguishers in place BEFORE YOU NEED THEM. 

Having only one fire extinguisher in a given area isn't the best plan. What if it isn't quite enough to put out the fire? What if it fails? 

Most fires will grow expotentially in size over time from their beginning. The sooner that you can fight the fire, the more likely that you will succeed. 

If you fail to put the fire out, remember to close the door on your way out. Keeping the fire in the one room and minimizing it's fresh air source until help arrives, is very important. It will also minimize fire and smoke damage, containing it, at least for a while, within that one room. It would be better to loose your shop than your whole house that's attached to it.

Charley


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## CharleyL (Feb 28, 2009)

Herb Stoops said:


> Mine arrived today,3 of them .I will mount them tomorrw. Thanks for starting this thread. I had completely forgot about FE's.
> Herb


Herb (and others),

Do you have them in the rest of your house? Maybe you need more? The kitchen? The garage? Each car? The central hallway between the bedrooms? Upstairs hallway?

Again, you don't want to put them where the fire is most likely to start, but you should have at least one nearby that you can get to quickly, like near the door or just outside of it, and another that you can get to with a little more effort, maybe a little farther away, should you fail to put out the fire with the first one. Don't forget to call or have someone else call the fire dept. while you are doing your best to contain and put out the fire. 

As a fireman, I was never upset that I responded to a fire call but the home owner had the fire out before we got there. When this happens, we do an investigation to be certain that the fire is really out, that everyone is safe, and we do a report that helps the home owner when it comes time to deal with their insurance company. Most fire companies will also help in the cleanup, with water vacuums, squeegies, plastic tarps, etc. 

Charley


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## dicktill (Mar 27, 2013)

CharleyL said:


> Having only one fire extinguisher in a given area isn't the best plan. What if it isn't quite enough to put out the fire? What if it fails?
> 
> Charley


Absolutely right, and I'll add: What if the fire is between you and the fire extinguisher?


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## CharleyL (Feb 28, 2009)

dicktill said:


> Absolutely right, and I'll add: What if the fire is between you and the fire extinguisher?


One of my reasons for saying "put it near the door" and "have more than one". It's best to have more than one escape route too, maybe not from your standing position, but from the other side of the tool, bench, etc. A passage door plus the garage door is my 2 ways out. The garage door isn't quite as easy to get to from where I'm usually standing and working, but if it's my only way out because the fire is blocking the passage door, I'm certain that it won't take me very long to get there. Another fire extinguisher is there too, plus the garden hose just outside and between this door and the passage door. 

Charley


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## BCR (Mar 30, 2009)

CharleyL said:


> One of my reasons for saying "put it near the door" and "have more than one".


Yeah I stated something to that effect. What I was saying, is put it in a area you will subconsciously see every time you go in and out of work area. So in an actual emergency, even a panicked person will know where to reach in their sleep. So put it at eye sight (but not eyesore, especially if you are a interior designer)

I stated something like that, it is what I had meant.0


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## Kuh Shise (Sep 3, 2019)

A few things came to mind as I read down through all these comments. First, if you are going to have only one extinguisher, then the only way to go is with the A B C extinguisher. The chemical in this type of extinguisher is Monoammonium Phosphate. It is hell on unprotected metals as it becomes acetic when exposed to moisture or humidity, so things will rust or oxidize after you operate the extinguisher. Vacuum it up as soon as possible and then wipe it off with a damp cloth that you rinse frequently. Any area with banks of electronics and relays (your CNC machine and computer) will be destroyed by using an ABC type extinguisher. Purple K was mentioned. It is Potassium bicarbonate and works on flammable liquids by interrupting the flame chain reaction (between the vapors coming off the liquid and the actual flames) by bonding to the active ion sites in the chemical reaction. It grabs the fuel so that it isn't available to the oxygen thus stopping burning. You have just combined two dry chemical extinguishers that are completely different in their effectiveness on different types of fire. Purple K won't be effective on wood or sawdust, so when you are faced with a fire - will you remember which extinguisher to grab? Nothing burns as a solid. All fuels must be vaporized before they take part in the oxidation process. Water works by cooling the fuel below its "flash point" (that temperature where enough vapors are coming off the material to flash into fire) Pine or fir typically begin to burn at about 400 degrees, so 60 degree water will be effective in putting out the fire (converts to steam at 212 deg. F.) if you can bring the water in contact with the hot fuel. Sawdust and shavings don't like water (pitch) but you can improve the contact by adding a surfactant (make the water like to stick to the fuel) like some dishwashing detergent. A plastic garden pump sprayer filled with water and a shot of Dawn dish detergent will be a good thing to grab for a fire in your dust collector bag. Having said this, agitating the fine dust by stirring of forceful application of the water can create a dust cloud that could detonate. Dust explosions are nasty, and it isn't the first little "Puff" that does the damage. That first little explosion will shake all the loose dust into the air and the second one will be the killer. A good estimator for the amount of water needed by the fire department to put our "ordinary" combustibles in a structure is 1 gallon per minute for every 100 cubic feet of involvement. So a 10 x 10 shop with a 10 ft high ceiling will need 10 GPM for extinguishment, but the water must be applied to the burning fuel. Squirting the wall when the fire is under the floor won't put the fire out. Lastly, since carbon dioxide was mentioned.. it puts out fires by displacing the oxygen. It is heavier than air, so works best on flammable liquids by blanketing the liquid. For an electrical motor, you will need enough CO-2 to push the oxygen out of the motor frame. Putting water on a burning, energized motor exposes the operator to possible electrocution. Surprisingly not with the electricity following the stream from the extinguisher, but by following floor water to the operators feet and then to a ground point. Hope some of this helps to generate more discussion.


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## CharleyL (Feb 28, 2009)

I was trying to avoid the technical terms by not including them, but thanks. Most people glaze over when you go technical, and these same people are the first to run past the extinguisher and leave the door open as they run away from the fire. My reason for trying to avoid this.

Charley


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