# Why get a dovetail jig?



## Marcus (Dec 1, 2009)

Been looking around at dovetail jigs and most of them are too expensive for what I want to spend right now, except for maybe a Porter Cable model.

I was in my local Woodcraft store and they were playing a Rob Cossman video and his speed style hand made dovetail. It didn't seem as if it was too complicated after a bit of practice. Also I tend to like the looks more from a hand made dovetail as compared to the ones made with jigs.

So....I'm thinking about trying to go the handmade method for a little while, that is if after a little practice I can get it looking good.

what thoughts do you guys have? Hand made dovetails too hard for a beginner? Jigs just easier and faster? Too time consuming?

Personally I think it's just crazy how expensive dovetail jigs are! Even the smaller ones that can be used on a table are more than $200 to $300, for a decent one that is.


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## Gene Howe (Jul 10, 2007)

I learned to cut dovetails in HS in the 50's. If I can do it, anyone can. Go for it.


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## Slingshot (Dec 14, 2009)

A number of years back I watched Franz Klausz (sp?) make dovetails with a saw & chisel. He is a speed demon! That inspire me to try, and I found that I was able to do it, although no where near as fast.

You would need to invest in good chisels and a dovetail saw. You also have to be proficient at keeping chisels sharp, so that means investing in a good sharpening system as well. The "Scary Sharp" method with plate glass & sandpaper works well & is cheap.

It's worth trying, and can only add to your abilities. Save for a jig as well.


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## Marcus (Dec 1, 2009)

Update, I just found this one on the net. Seems very inexpensive but I'm unsure about it because I don't recognize the brand and there is always the thought that "you get what you pay for."

What do you guys think of it?

http://www.vermontamerican.com/Products/productdetail.html?CID=149


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## Slingshot (Dec 14, 2009)

I'm not familiar with that one. 

I can tell you that only a couple of weeks ago I found my first dovetail jig (very cheap) sitting in a cardboard box on a shelf. It only took me a minute to toss it out.


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## Marcus (Dec 1, 2009)

Slingshot said:


> I'm not familiar with that one.
> 
> I can tell you that only a couple of weeks ago I found my first dovetail jig (very cheap) sitting in a cardboard box on a shelf. It only took me a minute to toss it out.


Slingshot - Do you mean that it would pretty much be worthless for me to try and get a jig like the one I posed above?


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## dutchman 46 (May 23, 2007)

One thing that caught my eye on the net is dovetails with the band saw, with the table saw, And they use a hand made jig to hold the angle of degree. I don't remember where I saw it, but check the net, there were all with in the last three months. Very cheep and much easier from what I saw!

http://www.woodshoptips.com/tips/051704/index.htm


http://www.finewoodworking.com/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesPDF.aspx?id=2748


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## Slingshot (Dec 14, 2009)

I'm not familiar with that particular jig. Just be wary of inexpensive tools. Somebody else might comment with experience on that one.

Tool Test: Half-Blind Dovetail Jigs - Fine Woodworking Article

One by General has worked for a few people here. http://www.toolexperts.com/ez-pro-dovetail-jig.html There are posts on it, just search.


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## cdarney (Mar 27, 2008)

I didn't want to buy a fancy jig for (at this time) very little use. I found enough information to try doing it by hand. After only a few tries I was able to make some pretty decent half-blind and through dovetail joints. I like the hand-made look and with more practice I think it'll be difficult to tell the difference. It was very satisfying, albeit time consuming, to make them.

That said, if I had to do a large number of them for a project I would probably consider a jig.


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## George II (Nov 8, 2007)

Marcus said:


> Update, I just found this one on the net. Seems very inexpensive but I'm unsure about it because I don't recognize the brand and there is always the thought that "you get what you pay for."
> 
> What do you guys think of it?
> 
> http://www.vermontamerican.com/Products/productdetail.html?CID=149


Why not slide down to Home Depot? (I know your in South Carolina..Lowe's country)..HD sells Vermont American tools...Check the country of origin..Besides if you buy it from HD and it sucks you can take it back..Just a thought..
George Cole
"Regulae Stultis Sunt"


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Just my two cents

The Vermont American brand has always been on the lower end of tools 

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## jmg1017 (Apr 9, 2009)

Seems like each woodworker goes through the same progression; 
1. Avoid dovetails in favor of a simpler method.
2. Learn about dovetails and try their hand at some handcut dovetail joints
3. Contemplate a dovetail jig because either they..
A) Never develop the skill or patience to become proficient at them
B) Simply want a jig to eliminate the tedious task of cutting dozens of dovetails on a chest of drawers etc.

My opinion is do both. And if it's within your budget purchase a quality dovetail jig, regardless of which manufacturer you choose.

Learning to cut handmade dovetails accurately is a skill that lasts a lifetime, but not every job requires them. Remember jigs of any kind are NOT a substitute for skilled workmanship.


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## Marcus (Dec 1, 2009)

jmg1017 said:


> Learning to cut handmade dovetails accurately is a skill that lasts a lifetime, but not every job requires them. Remember jigs of any kind are NOT a substitute for skilled workmanship.


Now that's a quote to work with! :sold:


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## CanuckGal (Nov 26, 2008)

Look for the video "Mastering Your Bandsaw" with Mark Duginske. He makes dovetails pretty quick and easy on the bandsaw, as well as a few other tricks. The bandsaw would have some size limitations, a blanket chest might be out of the question.


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## Hamlin (Dec 25, 2005)

Cutting DT's by hand is the best way to go. However, it's tedious at best. To answer the OP, to get a jig, eases & simplifies the setup time for cutting DT's. Think about your layout... it HAS to match.

Now, for a DT jig. I'm a little surprised Bj hasn't recommended yet but, the Katiejig. Reason being, you're really not limited to the size or rather, number of DT's you're wanting to cut. Many, many jigs are limited. The plust side, you can use it with either a hand held router or on the RT. 

Now, DT's can be cut by hand, a band saw and even the table saw. The best choice is rather simple really. You'll need to try each method to see which "fits" you best. 

Just my $0.02 worth.


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## rwyoung (Aug 3, 2008)

Go ahead and learn to cut them by hand. It isn't that difficult. 

On small projects or where you want really skinny pins (English style, the ones where the pin comes to a point), hand cut is pretty much the only way to go. ALL jigs using a router will have a limitation on how closely tails can be spaced (ie width of pins) based on the minimum diameter of the router bit. And none of the jigs can cut full mitered / secret mitered dovetails or hounds-tooth dovetails.

However there are jigs that can cut heart and teddybear shaped pins and sockets...

Cutting the parts for a chest of drawers or highboy by hand isn't THAT bad but will take some time. But if you have a whole kitchen full of drawers to do, consider the cost of a jig just part of the project cost. 

FYI, you can rent the Rob Cosman videos from SmartFlix, the Web's Biggest How-To DVD Rental Store.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Guys

I can't think of a faster way to make fire wood than to put in hand cut dovetails, if you do it day after day it's gets easy but most of us need the DT jig 

That's why they make so many types of the jigs, we all want the look but it's NOT easy for the one timer or the now and than wood worker..not to say anything about the high end tools to do them right..

That's the last thing you do to the stock the norm and if you mess up you will need to start over and stock is not cheap now days 

The DT jigs is the way to go for the home shop.


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## jmg1017 (Apr 9, 2009)

bobj3 said:


> Hi Guys
> 
> I can't think of a faster way to make fire wood than to put in hand cut dovetails, if you do it day after day it's gets easy but most of us need the DT jig
> 
> ...


Gotta disagree with this.

First off learning to make hand cut dovetails is NOT beyond the reach of any woodworker looking to improve their skills. All that's needed is some practice and patience. In addition, practicing on scrap material eliminates the waste of expensive stock. Who learns a new technique on expensive material anyway?
Secondly "high end" tools are not required. All that's needed is a good sharp set of chisels and some measuring and marking tools, which every woodworker should already own. It does help to have a good quality dovetail saw but these need not be expensive. 
What's wasteful to me is building a shop full of jigs and hoping that they're some type of substitute for skill. Never will be.


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## dustmaker (May 18, 2009)

Yeah, mostly because it's faster and I get a better result, but there's no disgrace in doing it by hand. I grew up near Amish country in Pennsylvania. Those folk do nearly everything with hand tools and could put many of us to shame with what we do with our power tools. I think every wood worker ought to try at least once to cut some DTs by hand...we might appreciate our jigs and tools a bit more. As Joe said, it will help build your skills as well.


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## Marcus (Dec 1, 2009)

Tell you what gentlmen....

I'll get started on practicing some hand made dovetails with the cheap 1/2"X4" "white board" stock that I got from home depot and I'll post pix when I get good at it!

Wish me luck!!!


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## Mike Wingate (Apr 26, 2009)

I have hand cut dovetails for years. A need for 8 mahogany drawers caused me to buy an Elu dovetail jig many years ago. Fine no problem with false fronts. Very quick, and srtong, but not visually right. My Incra Ultra setup produces more stylish dovetails.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Marcus

If you are going to give it a shot the video below will help,,but be sure to but your trash can near by, you will need it.. good luck

I would love to see a snapshot after you have done it 

Search Results dovetails — Woodworking Online

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Marcus said:


> Tell you what gentlmen....
> 
> I'll get started on practicing some hand made dovetails with the cheap 1/2"X4" "white board" stock that I got from home depot and I'll post pix when I get good at it!
> 
> Wish me luck!!!


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## Marcus (Dec 1, 2009)

bobj3 said:


> Hi Marcus
> 
> If you are going to give it a shot the video below will help,,but be sure to but your trash can near by, you will need it.. good luck
> 
> ...


Thanks Bob!!

Actually I found a post on here from someone who attached an index to all of those woodsmith video's. So I do have access to them all but haven't seen much of any of them at this time.

My problem is that I've spent a lot of money already trying to get a good hobby going. Table saw, router and table, planer, some hand tools and other little things. I need to have some time before I start putting a lot more money into it.

I will post pix when I get some good stuff going!


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi 

I'm looking forward to seeing them but if you get up tight, pickup the little jig below, it will do a good job for you..with out dropping a ton of money.

The EZ Pro Dovetail Jig Instructional Videos

40.oo bucks at HD and at many other outlets

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Marcus said:


> Thanks Bob!!
> 
> Actually I found a post on here from someone who attached an index to all of those woodsmith video's. So I do have access to them all but haven't seen much of any of them at this time.
> 
> ...


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## CanuckGal (Nov 26, 2008)

Good for you Marcus! We look forward to seeing your progress!


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## Hamlin (Dec 25, 2005)

The real key to hand cutting DT's is patience and lots of practice. I believe a few have forgotten that. Yes, it's easy once you've done numerous times, anything is. However, if you've never done it... Bj said it best, you'll be making lots of firewood. Marcus, best advice, find as many vids as you can, watch them, if you have to get ahold of books too, the better. The more info you have on hand, the easier it will be for you.


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## levon (Sep 14, 2008)

hi Marcus,
you mention practicing on white wood. it does cut easy, but makes very poor drawers. you might want to use some poplar scraps. it makes much better drawers as does other woods and plywoods.


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## andersonec (Jan 12, 2010)

Has anybody tried the MLCS dovetail templates, I have just ordered a set and was wondering if anyone has any experience of using them. Can't post a URL yet as I am a newcomer to the forum but I saw a video of the templates on a site 'Eaglelakewoodworking'


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## Larry S (Jan 8, 2010)

I was looking at the Porter Cable jig, has anyone used this DT jig?


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## andersonec (Jan 12, 2010)

Been onto the MLCS site and they have what looks to me a very good deal, a complete setup with six templates, cutters, guide bushes etc. for the price of a cheap jig here in the UK


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## rwyoung (Aug 3, 2008)

Larry S said:


> I was looking at the Porter Cable jig, has anyone used this DT jig?


I have a 4212 and it works very well. 

Track down the extra manual (link escapes me at the moment but I have posted it in these forms before) and read up on all the other "tricks" for this jig. It can do quite a lot.


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## rwyoung (Aug 3, 2008)

bobj3 said:


> Hi Guys
> 
> I can't think of a faster way to make fire wood than to put in hand cut dovetails, if you do it day after day it's gets easy but most of us need the DT jig
> 
> ...


If you mess up with a DT jig you get to start over too... 

As to cost, it really isn't that great. Here is a minimum tool set for handcut DT joints, might even be able to "pare" it down further (ha!).

1) Saw - a dovetail saw is nice but seriously, you can do these with a hacksaw ("The Precision Handcutting of Dovetails, Cecil E. Pierce, Astrigal Press). However I haven't tried it with a hacksaw. I have two dovetail saws, an inexpensive $10 "gent's" saw and I just bought the $65 DT saw from Lee Valley. The gent's saw works fine but like all less expensive tools it does require some user modification to get peak performance.

2) Combination square or engineer's square. A single 12" combo square is sufficient for most drawer and small box sized marking jobs. But having a second small 4" engineer's square helps with bringing lines around a board as the 12" combo square can be a little cumbersome. You may already have a 12" combo square. The inexpensive one from the hardware store will be fine here, but do take a little time and sort though the batch to find a good one.

3) Sharp pencil. A 0.5mm mechanical pencil works slick here but a good-ole #2 is fine, just keep it sharp.

4) Marking knife. Somewhat optional, you can work with just a pencil but you may end up doing more paring and test fitting. Furthermore, the small disposeable snap blade knives are fine for this.

5) Marking gauge - make one (very cheap) or buy one. I suggest that if you buy one, get the wheel cutter type for this. Again, you can go as low as about $10 or into the hundreds. A $10 Shop Fox or similar is fine but you may need to hone the cutter wheel a bit. An easy job.

6) Chisels - No need to go nuts here. The blue handled Marples/Irwins are fine. I happened to find a 4 piece set on clearance once for around $15 but really all you need to start would be a 1/2" and 1/4". 

7) Striking mallet - for a long time all I used was the flat side of a small finish hammer. Yes, they tell you that is a bad thing but it is tap, tap, tap, not bash, bash, bash. Otherwise is a tool you can make (hard maple, osage orange, etc) or buy for small money.

8) sharpening method - google for Scary Sharp. This is the least expensive in the short term as you may already have some or all of the sandpaper grits. A honing guide is optional at less than $20 for the "Eclipse" style or learn to do it free hand. Free hand isn't hard. Long term you may want to invest in a couple combination grit water stones or even look at the power sharpening methods. 

9) Adjustable bevel gauge - you may already have one. The inexpensive plastic and steel Stanley is fine. The end-screw adjusting type are nicer to use but the wing-nut type work just fine in this application.

OK, so here is the list with a few prices (Woodcraft, amazon, etc)
Saw - $23 for 8" Lynx brand gent's saw
1/4" chisel - $14
1/2" chisel - $14
Wheel marking (cutting) gauge - $12 
bevel gauge - $7.50
12" combo square (non-sterrit) - $15
0.5mm pencil + lead - $5 (get one with the little metal sleeve tip)
mallet - use a small framing hammer $15
honing guide - $10
320, 400, 600, 800, 1500 wet dry sandpaper (auto parts store) - $20
12x12 smooth marble tile (Home Depot, used to back the sand paper) - $10

So assuming you have to buy all these things: $145.50 plus something for tax and shipping. But you may already have some of these tools and for the most part, they are all multi-taskers so budgeting $200 is not a big deal in the greater scheme of things.

You can add more chisels later, getting into special grinds and paring versus bench chisels and O1 vs A2 steel. It is easy to layout with a ruler, bevel gauge and square but you can also find pre-made dovetail markers or make your own. Likewise, an inexpensive bow-divider works for layout. I left out a coping saw or jewlers saw for removing most of the waste because you can do it all with the chisel. Just takes a few extra minutes per pin or tail. If you want to go that route, add another $20 for a frame and some blades. 

I have left off the list handplanes for dressing the stock because you may already have them or you can also sand using a belt sander or stationary sander or by hand to dress down the pins/tails even should you get things a little proud. This is something you may need to do when using a DT jig too.

And I left out the workbench and work holding (vice, clamps) because you really should already have that. Just about any workbench will do but the heavier the better and do your chopping over a leg so you get the most support.

This has turned into a long post but really, it isn't that expensive to start and chances are you already have most of the stuff on the list I made anyway. 

Plus it is fun to poke at BobJ3.


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

Marcus said:


> Been looking around at dovetail jigs and most of them are too expensive for what I want to spend right now, except for maybe a Porter Cable model.
> 
> I was in my local Woodcraft store and they were playing a Rob Cossman video and his speed style hand made dovetail. It didn't seem as if it was too complicated after a bit of practice. Also I tend to like the looks more from a hand made dovetail as compared to the ones made with jigs.
> 
> ...



Hello Marcus...thought I'd give ya just another 2 cents worth..

hand cut dovetails are an artform! When well exicuted the end result is 
extrodinarily satisfying. There is a skill set involved that requires a great deal of patience and practice. Both of which many find in short supply. The tools required vary depending upon the approach. Rob has given a very nice example of what you need to get started. 
Personally I think the problem with hand cut dovetails is that very few people other than other craftsmen really appreciate them. Handcut or jig cut most don't know or can't tell the difference between the two. 
DT jigs are nice. Offer a relatively much shorter learning curve. Produce repeatable joints and in more and more cases, offer varrying theme's on the joint itself. AS jigs become more popular with woodworkers the number of offerings increases as does the price. What the market will bare and all that. Everything from plastic single pass/single joint to billet aluminum multijoint jigs that have all the bells and whistles you could possibly want and quite possbily never use. 
I have a older craftsman 16" jig, that typically would make fair to nice joints. A incra LS system that makes beautiful joints (with a learning curve) and for Christmas my wife bought me (lord only knows why...*L*) a Porter Cable 4216 that I havn't had a chance to try yet...all that and I still enjoy cutting them by hand on occasion. ..
Chances are, you'll end up with less firewood when learning to use a jig than hand cuts. I've found popular a good medium to work with when leanring anything new...plus it burns real well..*S*...

good luck with whatever you decide to go with...


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Rob

It's hard to mess up with a DT jig ,very hard,, the jig will do all the hard work for you, just need to just push the router (bit) in and pull it back out, any one can do that and get some great looking dovetails..a 10.oo dollar bit and a 40.oo dollar jig, if you buy it right all for 40.oo bucks 


The EZ Pro Dovetail Jig Instructional Videos

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rwyoung said:


> If you mess up with a DT jig you get to start over too...
> 
> As to cost, it really isn't that great. Here is a minimum tool set for handcut DT joints, might even be able to "pare" it down further (ha!).
> 
> ...


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## jlord (Nov 16, 2009)

Larry S said:


> I was looking at the Porter Cable jig, has anyone used this DT jig?


I use PC jig all the time. It's a good jig. Easy to use. Here's some links to the regular manual & the supplemental manual.

http://www.deltaportercable.com/jigs/dovetail/SupplementalManual.pdf

http://www.deltaportercable.com/jigs/dovetail/DovetailJigManual.pdf


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## rwyoung (Aug 3, 2008)

bobj3 said:


> Hi Rob
> 
> It's hard to mess up with a DT jig ,very hard,, the jig will do all the hard work for you, just need to just push the router (bit) in and pull it back out, any one can do that and get some great looking dovetails..a 10.oo dollar bit and a 40.oo dollar jig, if you buy it right all for 40.oo bucks
> =========


Maybe for some it is hard to mess up with a DT jig but you would never know that by the number of questions on jig set-up that show up on the forum.  But I do agree with the general principle of your statement. I've found my PC4212 very easy to use. Once set up and dialed in you can cut matching joints all day long. :moil:

And you forgot to add in the cost of a router. :dirol:

Seriously, I use both (PC4212) for DT joints. It depends on what I want to make. DT jigs cannot cut pins narrower than the narrowest part of the dovetail bit. These are sometimes referred to as English dovetail joints. The ones with the pin only about a saw-kerf wide at one end. Elegant and suitable for a small drawer but not so much for a sea-chest!

DT jigs cannot cut 100% of a mitered DT joint and they cannot cut any of a hidden or double mitered DT joint. They cannot cut hounds-tooth DT joints. I want to figure out how to cut a hounds-tooth DT joint. I think I know how, it is really just a through DT joint with smaller half-blinds between.

Some can cut true arbitrary spaced joints others can only cut variable width based on skipping fingers or sliding the template. And several allow arbitrarily long work pieces.

Pretty much all of DT jigs are going to be much faster in a production situation than hand cutting.

Hand cut is quieter.  I won't say any less messy except for there are fewer airborne particles. But you still need to sweep up after.

So, pick your poison.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hounds Tooth Dovetail Tutorial/Drawer techniques...Blue Spruce - Sawmill Creek
Hand Cut Double Dovetail Experiment - by Woodhacker | LumberJocks.com :: woodworking community
WoodCentral Articles & Reviews


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## rwyoung (Aug 3, 2008)

bobj3 said:


> Hounds Tooth Dovetail Tutorial/Drawer techniques...Blue Spruce - Sawmill Creek
> Hand Cut Double Dovetail Experiment - by Woodhacker | LumberJocks.com :: woodworking community
> WoodCentral Articles & Reviews
> 
> ...


I have seen the SMC thread on the the 1/2 blind double dovetails. He does a nice job of explaining it.

And you reminded me about the double dovetails. Forgot to mention those. Machine or hand cut both look pretty neat.

Also left out faux-dovetails or dovetail splines. Those can be cut by hand but are better cut by machine.

Didn't mention dovetail dados either. Both double and single bladed types. Again, easier by machine but if you want a stopped dado with a square end, you have to go back and do that by hand. Although frequently the inset piece is haunched so the round end is covered over anyway.

Also, I've seen some single blade dovetail grooves that would have been too narrow to cut by hand because the width of the dovetail bit would interfere with the vertical side. Those would need to be cut by hand with a series of saw cuts, dovetail plane, chisel work, etc. 

Rob Cosman is fun to watch. So is Frank Klaus.

But for me, part of the fun is figuring out how to do the stuff given some basic information. So even though I've seen the SMC thread and a few others on Houndstooth cutting I've mostly figured out for myself how to do it. Just haven't done much on the execution. I seem to let to many other activities and projects get in the way!  

And for those interested in the Rob Cosman videos, they are listed at SmartFlix, the Web's Biggest How-To DVD Rental Store for rent.


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