# Duane's torsion box bench top build thread



## Duane Bledsoe (Jan 6, 2013)

Well I'm committed now!!!

I made another trip to the shop where I bought my router table a few weeks back and spent $330 while there today, and most of that went to materials needed for my new table top torsion box. 

First, to go ahead and get it out of the way, I'll mention that part of that money went for a Kreg Jig K4 master kit. I will use this to connect the grid to the underside of the top of the new table with pocket hole screws. I picked up a box of 500 1 1/4" pocket hole screws for that (no, I'm not using the whole box ). I will also be using the PL adhesive that Stick suggested. I know he suggested countersink screws for the top also as a first choice over pocket holes, but I am not sure I have faith that I could hit solidly into the edges of the torsion frame every time I put a screw in.

Then I bought two sheets of 5' x 5' russian birch ply (I asked for baltic but my receipt says russian so I guess that is just the kind they sell) in 3/4" size to make the inner grid with. Yes, I know 3/4" might be overkill, but I know it will be strong that way, no doubt. Also, I will have a little bit more width to hit when I need to aim for it from outside through my ply skins with screws (I still might decide to do countersink on top). Having never built one before, I don't know what to expect and I just felt better with 3/4". At this point, I plan to run them through the table saw and make 3" strips for the depth of the grid, and make 8" squares internally. At least in one direction, I will have to do scarf joints to lengthen the strips longer than their current 5' length because the finished table top will be 6' long when completed.

I also bought two 10' long boards of hard maple for the outer edge banding. This is the first time I have bought any real hardwood besides what the big box stores sell. I had no idea what to look for, but since this is just for edge banding and to add stiffness and durability, I hope it doesn't matter all that much about imperfections and other things. I noticed after I got home that they were flat sawn, which I'd have preferred quarter sawn if I had thought of it, but I was too giddy at the time to think of it all. I have already cross cut these to lengths of 48"+ and 72"+ and that gives me room to work, being over just a tad. The wood is somewhat rough, but since I don't have a planer I will have to just sand it. It has been planed to a rough 13/16" as is, mostly smooth but a few rough patches, and all I plan to do is just joint it on my router table so I have a straight edge to use on the table saw to rip it to width, and then I'll sand it to remove the roughness and put the smoothest side out for looks. 

I also bought two Amana 1/2" flush trim bits with 1" long cutters. One is 1/4" shank, and one is 1/2" shank. I was just gonna get a 1/4" shank bit so it would fit all my routers, especially the trim router, but I got talked into one of each by my wife again. All I need this for is just to trim the hardboard surface even with the plywood under surface after the torsion box is built. I can't think of any reason I'd need two of these, but I like having them.

Also, I tried my router table as a jointer today. Never did any of that before but it worked like a charm. First I ran a short piece of pine as an experiment before trying my maple. When that worked well, then I went to the hardwood. I had a nice straight edge on the edge of that maple in just a few passes. Checking with a square, it was dead on 90 degrees from edge to face, and ram rod straight, so now it can go through the table saw and be ripped to width accurately. 

Ok, so from here on in, as I build this I will post pics and report my progress. I figure I owe you guys a build thread since I cheated you out of a router table build when I bought that Kreg.


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Duane, You may want to add 1/4" Masonite to the top of your bench. As it gets scared up you can just replace the Masonite. If you want to do this add 1/4" to your edge banding to hold it in place.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

If you use just the PL 400, 500, or 700 you don't need screws. There isn't anything that will get it apart in one piece once those set up. My son used to use those to build speaker boxes out of mdf and the only way they would come apart was with a sledge hammer. He used gyp rock screws to hold everything together until the glue dried. After that it didn't matter if you took them out. You could use a few cauls and clamps to hold it it on instead.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Kreg Jig K4 master kit. I will use this to connect the grid to the underside of the top of the new table with pocket hole screws. 
*on the frame/rim install the screws from the outside of the frame/rim in...
watch the depth of the penetration of the screws into the top sheet very carefully....
too deep will telegraph through as pimples into top surface....*

Then I bought two sheets of 5' x 5' Russian birch ply (I asked for Baltic but my receipt says Russian so I guess that is just the kind they sell) in 3/4" size to make the inner grid with. 
*Russian birch ply may be a knock off, may have voids and isn't an actual 60''...
if it's the real deal it's virtually indistinguishable from BB...
verify the sheet thicknesses... both of them... each sheet may be different...
*
Yes, I know 3/4" might be overkill, 
*no it's not...
*
but I know it will be strong that way, no doubt.
*it will, no doubt...
*
Also, I will have a little bit more width to hit when I need to aim for it from outside through my ply skins with screws. Having never built one before, 
I don't know what to expect and I just felt better with 3/4". At this point, 
*being comfortable is very important here...
*
I plan to run them through the table saw and make 3" strips for the depth of the grid, and make 8" squares internally. At least in one direction, I will have to do scarf joints to lengthen the strips longer than their current 5' length because the finished table top will be 6' long when completed.
*remember to alternate the locations of the scarf joints and to plate them...
will you be doing half blinds or blocking???...
*
I also bought two 10' long boards of hard maple for the outer edge banding. This is the first time I have bought any real hardwood besides what the big box stores sell. I had no idea what to look for, but since this is just for edge banding and to add stiffness and durability, I hope it doesn't matter all that much about imperfections and other things.
*shouldn't...
*
I also bought two Amana 1/2" flush trim bits with 1" long cutters. One is 1/4" shank, and one is 1/2" shank. I was just gonna get a 1/4" shank bit so it would fit all my routers, especially the trim router, but I got talked into one of each by my wife again. All I need this for is just to trim the hardboard surface even with the plywood under surface after the torsion box is built. I can't think of any reason I'd need two of these, but I like having them.
*being redundant is a good thing... ask any of us...
*
Also, I tried my router table as a jointer today. Never did any of that before but it worked like a charm. First I ran a short piece of pine as an experiment before trying my maple. When that worked well, then I went to the hardwood. I had a nice straight edge on the edge of that maple in just a few passes. Checking with a square, it was dead on 90 degrees from edge to face, and ram rod straight, so now it can go through the table saw and be ripped to width accurately.
*excellent...
*

Ok, so from here on in, as I build this I will post pics and report my progress. I figure I owe you guys a build thread since I cheated you out of a router table build when I bought that Kreg.

*what thickness ply will you be putting on the bottom side...

Notes...
when you spline the top pieces together make sure the grain goes the same way nd not perpendicular...
after you build the grid verify that it is flat flat...
fine tune it w/ a LA plane if need be...
if the pockets for the screws annoy you in the rim plug them...*


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## Duane Bledsoe (Jan 6, 2013)

I doubt the pocket holes will annoy me. I was planning to build the full grid, rim and all, from the birch plywood, and attach the top and bottom sheets to it, and also add a top layer of tempered hardboard (and then flush trim it with one of the new bits), then add the hardwood edge band. I figured the edge band would cover the pocket holes up if any showed on the rim. As for adding the hardwood, how should I do it? I was just thinking of adhesive and countersunk screws. 

As for the top sheet beneath the hardboard, does this have to be more baltic birch plywood? Because it would be a bit easier on me if a standard cabinet plywood available at the big box in 4x8 sheets could be used. Save me a hassle of joining plys together to lengthen them, especially since it will be PL bonded and screwed to the 3/4" birch ply framing anyway. 

For the bottom piece, I know 1/4" plywood will work. However, I am thinking of using 3/4" anyway, simply because I need to secure it to the metal Kreg frame using the predrilled screw holes, and these may not line up with anything other than the bottom skin. I'd rather run a screw into thicker plywood than to only hit thin material, especially since I can now see how heavy this is going to turn out to be, and the only way to move it if needed will involve lifting it by the overhanging surface and letting the frame hang from below by the connecting screws. I also know I could place some strategically located wood blocks inside, but it is much simpler to just use thicker plywood instead. 

On lengthening the frame strips to the needed distance, I figured on a scarf joint. If this is ok, my plan was to set each strip needing lengthened on the miter saw, edge up, as if I were just cutting trim, and use the saw's widest angle of 60 degrees and miter it. Make a matching piece and overlap them with PL glue and air nails. Have this joint positioned in the middle of one of the 8" squares in the grid (in other words NOT as it crosses another strip in the grid), and use birch ply blocking on both sides of the joint to reinforce it, also air nailed and PL glued. These blocking pieces will span the full 8" width of the square spaces they are in, from side to side. I will stagger these joints out across the grid so they're not all in a line. 

At this point, I plan to do the half blind joints as each strip crosses another to form the grid. I don't know the method yet. I can make a stack from them and use the sliding miter saw set at a specific depth to make the cross cuts and form most of the cut outs, but then I will have to remove the material and finish squaring the joint cutouts by hand with a chisel. If I am accurate enough, I might first drill out the back of the cutout with a forstner bit on the drill press, then do the cross cuts and the material will fall away on its own, and then just chisel the corners to square them up. All of this means every drilled hole, every slide of the saw blade, all has to be spot on accurate. I hope I'm up to it. A dado blade on a table saw and a cross cut sled would be best I think, but I don't have those things and budget won't allow it. I'm into my wallet deep as it is now.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Duane I am curious what a single sheet of 3/4" Birch plywood is down there . 60"/60" is 89 bucks a sheet here before the 14% tax.

Btw good luck with the build . Looking forward to seeing your work station


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

I doubt the pocket holes will annoy me. I was planning to build the full grid, rim and all, from the birch plywood, and attach the top and bottom sheets to it, 
*okay...
*
and also add a top layer of tempered hardboard (and then flush trim it with one of the new bits), then add the hardwood edge band. 
*I would make the torsion grid...
add the edge band...
add the ¾'' top over lapping the edge band so it's under the top...
since you have a sistered frame put the pocket screws on the inside...
*
I figured the edge band would cover the pocket holes up if any showed on the rim. As for adding the hardwood, how should I do it? I was just thinking of adhesive and countersunk screws.
*you use adhesive and it's a forever deal... 
*
As for the top sheet beneath the hardboard, does this have to be more Baltic birch plywood? 
*definitely not... I thought that is what you wanted to use...
*
Because it would be a bit easier on me if a standard cabinet plywood available at the big box in 4x8 sheets could be used. 
*go for it...
use an AB or BB grade APA (American Plywood Association) stamped ply w/ the more plys being a distinct advantage... AB or BB Fir would be an excellent choice... 
Here a C faced plywood won't be smooth nor flat... the lesser side is the one you'll be fastening the grid to..
VOE says DO NOT use the plywood from china or S. America... trust me, you will become disenchanted when the plywood begins to delaminate...
*
For the bottom piece, I know 1/4" plywood will work. However, I am thinking of using 3/4" anyway, simply because I need to secure it to the metal Kreg frame using the predrilled screw holes, and these may not line up with anything other than the bottom skin. I'd rather run a screw into thicker plywood than to only hit thin material, especially since I can now see how heavy this is going to turn out to be, and the only way to move it if needed will involve lifting it by the overhanging surface and letting the frame hang from below by the connecting screws. I also know I could place some strategically located wood blocks inside, but it is much simpler to just use thicker plywood instead.
* go for it... do the wood blocks too... 
you said you were going to pound on the table... 
*
On lengthening the frame strips to the needed distance, I figured on a scarf joint. If this is OK, my plan was to set each strip needing lengthened on the miter saw, edge up, as if I were just cutting trim, and use the saw's widest angle of 60 degrees and miter it. Make a matching piece and overlap them with PL glue and air nails. Have this joint positioned in the middle of one of the 8" squares in the grid (in other words NOT as it crosses another strip in the grid), and use birch ply blocking on both sides of the joint to reinforce it, also air nailed and PL glued. These blocking pieces will span the full 8" width of the square spaces they are in, from side to side. I will stagger these joints out across the grid so they're not all in a line.
*yes on the scarf joint...
BUT!!!! because it's ply you are joining this scarf joint seems to work the best... see the picture...
TS and dado blade to the rescue..
block like you said you were going to but you'll only need to do a block on one side...
once the PL sets up you WILL NOT get that joint apart w/o destroying it...*

At this point, I plan to do the half blind joints as each strip crosses another to form the grid. I don't know the method yet. 
*dado blade and TS to the rescue again...
layout the cuts on one piece...
make your stack and clamp them together... make sure the edge is square to the face....
make your 1st cut... (I'd do the cut 1-9/16'' deep.. this helps w/ easier flush fitting and hydro static glue pressures)... 
use a precut piece 1½'' wide in to the dado and pin it in place... this keeps things lined up and square...
another way is to cut the 1st dado only using your miter gauge, fence and then adding the insert... clamp up and gang cut...
every time you cut validate that the edges are flush before you cut...
no TS/dado blade.. use your router...
*
I can make a stack from them and use the sliding miter saw set at a specific depth to make the cross cuts and form most of the cut outs, but then I will have to remove the material and finish squaring the joint cutouts by hand with a chisel. If I am accurate enough, 
*I believe that to use you mitersaw is an invitation for things not coming out as well as they could...
*
I might first drill out the back of the cutout with a forstner bit on the drill press, then do the cross cuts and the material will fall away on its own, and then just chisel the corners to square them up. 
All of this means every drilled hole, every slide of the saw blade, all has to be spot on accurate. I hope I'm up to it. 
*that seems a bit over thought and a challenge to maintain accuracy...
*
A dado blade on a table saw and a cross cut sled would be best I think, but I don't have those things and budget won't allow it. I'm into my wallet deep as it is now.
*use your router... treat the cuts like a mortise...*

*the hardboard...
take it to the edge of the top...
DS tape (I used carpet tape) and a BRASS screw in each corner will hold it in place for years to come till you flip it over to use the other side...
Brass is kinder to your cutting edges than steel should you clip one...
a holding frame makes for a seam and trash gets into the seam and then works it's way under the hardboard lifting it and negating your flatness... VOE...
*


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## Duane Bledsoe (Jan 6, 2013)

How long does that PL glue take to dry?


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

About the same amount of time as most wood glues but it stays more flexible. It will stretch before it will fail which is one of the reasons that it makes such a strong joint. You would only need to worry about the extra flexibility in its early stages if you intended to flex your frame. Leaving pressure on it would be similar to clamping standard wood glues. In about an hour you should probably be okay to take them off.

Screwing the bottom layer on is fine too, if you have enough time. Screws are slower than clamping and in some cases you have to consider that in your plans if you are going to have a lot of them to put in.

One other attribute of the PLs is that they have gap filling capability. I used PL 400 to glue the subfloor in my house to the floor joists. It is capable of filling a 3/8" gap. Just as an example, if your frame had a few low spots among the inner members you could use some good stiff cauls along with clamps and the PL would leave a solid bond across the gaps.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> About the same amount of time as most wood glues but it stays more flexible. It will stretch before it will fail which is one of the reasons that it makes such a strong joint. You would only need to worry about the extra flexibility in its early stages if you intended to flex your frame. Leaving pressure on it would be similar to clamping standard wood glues. In about an hour you should probably be okay to take them off.
> 
> Screwing the bottom layer on is fine too, if you have enough time. Screws are slower than clamping and in some cases you have to consider that in your plans if you are going to have a lot of them to put in.
> 
> One other attribute of the PLs is that they have gap filling capability. I used PL 400 to glue the subfloor in my house to the floor joists. It is capable of filling a 3/8" gap. Just as an example, if your frame had a few low spots among the inner members you could use some good stiff cauls along with clamps and the PL would leave a solid bond across the gaps.


Charles I never even thought of using PL , thanks for the heads up earlier . Funny thing is I've used it years ago too . When I get back to my torsion box router table I'll take that route. 
Which one would be the best though as you mention three . Does one have a longer setup time?


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Duane Bledsoe said:


> How long does that PL glue take to dry?


which do you have 400 or premium???
generally 15/20 min (tops) open time...
also.. PL won't creep like yellow wood glue...
if you get it on your hands clean it while it's wet or other wise plan on wearing it for about 2 weeks till your skin oils break the bond between it and you...

mineral spirits is an excellent cleaner if it's still wet...

*Cleanup*
Clean tools and uncured adhesive residue immediately with acetone or mineral spirits in a well-ventilated area to the outdoors. Cured adhesive may be carefully cut away with a sharp-edged tool.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Rick I'm not sure. I would have to read the labels. I think the 700 and maybe the Premium are polyurethane based and waterproof. One or more of them are good to use down to +5F which is well below what typical wood glue can used at. One or more of them will bond to wet lumber too. There are lots of applications for them. The nozzles will plug if you don't use them for a while but I'm using the last 1/2 of a tube of 400 right now that I started at least a year ago and maybe 2 or 3. I use a drill and long bit to get the plugs cleared.


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## billyjim (Feb 11, 2012)

I looked the glue up and started reading some reviews. The one complaint that I saw was the difficulty squeezing it out using a caulk gun. Is this a problem? The reviews were for the premium; I didn't look up the 400 so I don't know if that is a problem with that grade as well.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> I use a drill and long bit to get the plugs cleared.


screw a long screw or small dis lag into the tip...
pull the screw out and the plug comes w/ it...
it helps to leave a ''bulb'' of glue on the end of the nozzle...
for real stubborn plugs... cut a little of the nozzle off... pressurize the tube *a little*,,, add the screw/lag and pull...


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

billyjim said:


> I looked the glue up and started reading some reviews. The one complaint that I saw was the difficulty squeezing it out using a caulk gun. Is this a problem? The reviews were for the premium; I didn't look up the 400 so I don't know if that is a problem with that grade as well.


cold glue is an issue... it's some kind of stiff..
the warmer it is the more fluid it becomes....
direct sun shine is a great heater...
way too small of a hole in the nozzle doesn't help either...

premium is way easier to use and seriously stronger than 400...


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

RainMan1 said:


> Charles I never even thought of using PL , thanks for the heads up earlier . Funny thing is I've used it years ago too . When I get back to my torsion box router table I'll take that route.
> Which one would be the best though as you mention three . Does one have a longer setup time?


didn't you read my posts to you???...


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Stick486 said:


> didn't you read my posts to you???...


 Stick I think I'm remembering that now from my router thread . Seemed odd at the time so I stuck with glue , but after reading about how it will fill in the gaps I think it's a much better solution .
Good call


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

RainMan1 said:


> Stick I think I'm remembering that now from my router thread . Seemed odd at the time so I stuck with glue , but after reading about how it will fill in the gaps I think it's a much better solution .
> Good call


I had to look it up too. What the heck does PL stand for. 
I have used a lot of construction adhesives and Sitca Flex before , not for years,tho , and had never heard of PL. After I googled it ,it was clear as mud.

Herb


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Herb Stoops said:


> I had to look it up too. What the heck does PL stand for.
> I have used a lot of construction adhesives and Sitca Flex before , not for years,tho , and had never heard of PL. After I googled it ,it was clear as mud.
> 
> Herb


stands for *P*rofessional *L*ine...
for the longest time you could only get through commercial cantractor outlets...


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Stick486 said:


> screw a long screw or small dis lag into the tip...
> pull the screw out and the plug comes w/ it...
> it helps to leave a ''bulb'' of glue on the end of the nozzle...
> for real stubborn plugs... cut a little of the nozzle off... pressurize the tube *a little*,,, add the screw/lag and pull...


Do all of that. Still seems to want to harden up just past where the screw ends. Long drill bit fixes that with only a small widening of the tip. Have tried pressurizing the tube and have had the adhesive pass backwards past the tube piston. That is a real ***** to clean up sometimes. Can be really hard to get off the gun and actuating rod. 

Can't remember who else posted about thickening up but don't let it freeze. I've heard contractors ask at the contractors desk in the hardware store if it was kept inside over the winter or allowed to freeze. Mine didn't freeze and I'm not sure how old the rest of the tube I used today was but it's been quite a while since the first half was used. Once the plug was removed it still came out just a little thicker than baby poop.


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## Duane Bledsoe (Jan 6, 2013)

Eww.


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## Duane Bledsoe (Jan 6, 2013)

Ok, I made a little progress on the torsion box today. I just now got rained out so I was forced to stop a little early, but not before I had time to learn a few things.

First, I love baltic birch plywood!

Second, I LOVE baltic birch plywood!

Did I mention that I love baltic birch plywood?

I have never cut a plywood that cut so smoothly in my life. Now my experience is limited to plain old construction grade plywoods in all sizes, and also some cabinet grade stuff, but none of these ever cut so smoothly without splintering. Baltic birch is already amazing to me, and I haven't even made anything with it yet. Also, my experience has been limited to only using a circular saw to cut plywood in the past. Today is the first time I ever ran any through a table saw so I don't know what difference that might have made, if any. I am using a Ridgid R4513 portable saw with a Freud Diablo 10 inch, 24 tooth ripping blade. It left a few saw marks but not bad at all, however, I am concerned about them somewhat (details below). 

I started with 60" long, 30" wide sheets of the 3/4" plywood. I set my saw to 3" for a width of cut and ran it through repeatedly to create strips to form the torsion frame. I got one sheet finished before the rain hit so I went on to do a few quick pics of the strips across the work bench frame for this thread. Also laid a level across them to see how well I did at consistant widths, because the plywood started out a little hard to handle and got easier as I went but I always felt like I was wobbling it a little as I went also. The level seemed to lay across all pieces nicely, no humps or dips to speak of as far as I could see. 

Second lesson learned. I had cut two strips and on the third I let the piece move at the end of the cut which made that piece slightly narrow on the last 12 inches, about 1/32 or a little more. I fixed the remaining sheet edge roughly with a sanding block, and it came out pretty well so I went back to cutting, and I marked those ends because I will have to cut some strips so it is still useable after I cut it for length. The lesson learned was concentrate on holding the sheet to the fence as I pass it through the blade, and modify my push pressure as I near the end of the cut. I even had to modify it with each pass due to the plywood becoming smaller and smaller. I just focused on moving the sheet and staying on the fence and took it a few inches at a time. It went smoothly that way.

So a few lessons learned, and I have some of the frame strips cut. My concern is, they aren't all dead on consistant 3" widths, or so it would seem. I took a pic to show this with a steel ruler, but this could be due to saw marks, or a slight bow in some pieces that will flatten out as I assemble it. I could even plane it out (after I go buy a low angle plane), or I may not even have to worry about it. It is only about 1/32 off. I can see light under the ruler in a few places. This bugs me. I want this table top flat flat flaaaaaaaaat. Should I be concerned? 

Pics below.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Duane Bledsoe said:


> Did I mention that I love Baltic birch plywood?
> 
> This bugs me. I want this table top flat flat flaaaaaaaaat. Should I be concerned?


so tell how you really feel about Baltic ply...

no, you shouldn't be at this time... don't fuss w/ it what matters is *AFTER* also remember that PL will bridge up to 3/8''..

do your scafs now and make sure the rips are straight...
take one rib and scarf it to length..
cut the scarf joints on two pieces and clamp them together...
measure/mark/cut to length... most accurate way to get the lengths all the same... this method comps for the slightest of errors..
take the drop and scarf it to length the same way you did the 1st rib.....
repeat/keep taking the drops and lengthen them.. the drops will continually get shorter
this the easiest way to to end up w/ staggered scarfs... least amount of waste too...

hope this is clearer than mud...

when yur ready to cut the half blinds we'll cover that,,


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## Duane Bledsoe (Jan 6, 2013)

Some of that seems clear. I am not sure what "scarf it to length" means, or what the drop is.

What I comprehended was cut a scarf onto the end of one rib, then cut the rib to length so that the scarf joint will fall where I want it. Then cut another scarf on another piece and put the two pieces together with clamps and PL glue. When dry, cut to overall length. Does that about sum it up?

My scarfs themselves will be what I call half laps. I was thinking of laying a rib on its side and use a router to remove half of the depth of the material on one end (11/16 thick, so 11/32 exactly, and I hope I can hit it that close). This will be cut in about 3" from the end, unless you think the overlap should be longer. With two ribs cut this way I can overlap them and form the joint. I think you put up an illustration that shows this very thing earlier in this thread.

Well, the rain stopped, so I started again and finished ripping another half sheet down to 3" strips. Then I laid them all out to see what it was like. Oh, how I wish all those lap joints were already cut and that grid could be formed. Obviously the overhanging strips have to be cut closer to the size of the metal frame they rest on. I am going to leave a 2" overhang all around, except for maybe on one end where it may be as much as 6-8" overhang so I can add a set of wheels to the legs, set just off the floor, and positioned under the overhang so I'm less likely to trip over them. I can lift the opposite end to make the wheels touch the floor for easy movement and just move it like I would a wheelbarrow. 

Also, in laying them out, I realized my 8x9 squares will unnecessarily complicate the spacing figures when I calculate the cut points. This was based on my metal frame size, and how I wanted the overall top to compare to this. I think I will make the spacings 9x9 for easy layout and less chance of mistakes. That's not too wide overall for 3" strips is it?


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Some of that seems clear. I am not sure what "scarf it to length" means, or what the drop is.
*scarf two ribs together...
measure the length you need and cut it..
the piece that falls away is the drop...
scarf that piece (the drop) onto another rib...
this time when you measure include the piece that was the drop in the measure... 
basically, you took the drop and made it longer not a long rib...
take the new drop and make that one longer...
and so on...
if you get two scarfs in one long rib.. no problemo...
REMEMBER... you will always be making the drops longer after the 1st glue up...

this will waste less and staggering the scarfs will be effortless..
*

What I comprehended was cut a scarf onto the end of one rib, then cut the rib to length so that the scarf joint *will fall where I want it. *Then cut another scarf on another piece and *put the two pieces together with clamps and PL glue.* When dry, cut to overall length. Does that about sum it up?

*make up your scarf joint w/ clamps and no glue or fasteners.. 
measure/cut..
now do the glue.. doing it this way helps w/ alignment and you won't be as likely to stress the joint while while it's wet...
suggest you hold up on metal fasteners at this time... glue and clamp only...
*
My scarfs themselves will be what I call half laps. I was thinking of laying a rib on its side and use a router to remove half of the depth of the material on one end (11/16 thick, so 11/32 exactly, and I hope I can hit it that close). 
*you can.. use your router table...
if you free hand make sure your router is well supported so that it doesn't ''rock'' during the cut....
*
This will be cut in about 3" from the end, unless you think the overlap should be longer. With two ribs cut this way I can overlap them and form the joint. I think you put up an illustration that shows this very thing earlier in this thread.
*a 3'' check will be fine... nothing wrong w/ 4'' either other than longer laps make for better stronger joints.. 
no better going any further/longer than that...*

Well, the rain stopped, so I started again and finished ripping another half sheet down to 3" strips. Then I laid them all out to see what it was like. Oh, how I wish all those lap joints were already cut
*what is your preferred method of cutting these joints??? 
dado blade or router???
*
and that grid could be formed. Obviously the overhanging strips have to be cut closer to the size of the metal frame they rest on. I am going to leave a 2" overhang all around, except for maybe on one end where it may be as much as 6-8" overhang so I can add a set of wheels to the legs, set just off the floor, and positioned under the overhang so I'm less likely to trip over them. I can lift the opposite end to make the wheels touch the floor for easy movement and just move it like I would a wheelbarrow. 
*sounds good to me...*

Also, in laying them out, I realized my 8x9 squares will unnecessarily complicate the spacing figures when I calculate the cut points. This was based on my metal frame size, and how I wanted the overall top to compare to this. I think I will make the spacings 9x9 for easy layout and less chance of mistakes. That's not too wide overall for 3" strips is it?
*no...*


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## Duane Bledsoe (Jan 6, 2013)

Ok, I have a few questions. When cutting the half lap joints for the internal ribs to cross each other, I understand it needs to be 1 9/16" deep on a 3" wide rib to allow a little room for the glue. My plan was to sandwich all the ribs together as if they were one large piece, then make passes crossways with the router against a clamped on guide and basically make dadoes to form the cuts for the joints. I have a 11/16" wide plywood bit that is the exact width of the plywood thickness, and it will make my work much easier if I can use it (much less router work needed), however, the cutters are only an inch long, and it only has a 1/4" shank. It needs to stick out of the collet a good bit in order to allow a deep enough cut to make the joints. I looked at the bit in the collet while out of the router and the collet has a good bit of the shank still inside it, about 5/8-3/4" , although it could cover another 1/4" if the shank was longer. I have put a pic of the bit in the router in this thread to show how it needs to be in order to make the cut. If this sticks out too far to be safe or make the cuts smooth due to chatter then I will need a plan B instead of this.

The possible plan B could be taking some of the width off the ribs so a shallower cut would work. I have them cut pretty accurate now, as accurate as my abilities allowed for, probably all within 1/32" of the same width as far as I can tell, but I feel they could be closer. I ran them through the table saw as a whole sheet the first time and this introduced inaccuracies from too much movement of an awkward cut. Some have just the slightest hint of a crown where the sheet must have moved away from the fence slightly and created a curved cut instead of dead straight. If I joint the edges of every strip, then run them througn the table saw again, I feel I could get them more accurate since it will be a strip at a time now and not a whole sheet, and at the same time make them thin enough for the plywood bit to work. Maybe go down to 2 1/2" inch?

A router is my only option. I don't have a dado set for my table saw, although a sled and a dado set does seem to be the best answer (it goes on the top of the list now for things desired in the shop). I thought of using my sliding miter saw at a preset depth but the last time I tried that it was much less accurate than I thought it would be. There is just too much flex in the saw for the depth to be accurate on each pass, it leaves a woefully rough bottom after all those passes, and it relies on my eyeballing the mark and being accurate on both shoulders of the dado for every single one. Way too much room for error.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

I have to say I'm stumped . I used my table saw with a dado and it made it eceptionally easy . Actually far easier than I anticipated .
I have to say your end result may be the same but it's going to be a lot of work and suspect a lot of room for error . Be interesting to see what the experts say


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

I think your going to have to build a sled/jig system for your router table the more I think about it.

Ok what if you attached a piece of wood to your miter gauge and have a second piece in front that slides on its surface . The front wood would have an added piece of wood behind it that fits a notch in the rear piece and allows for side to side movement of the same width as your wood . The front piece would also have a piece of wood on the front left hand side of its face to hold the piece your putting a notch in for the next cuts to keep them identical .
Wish I could do sketch up


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Ok, I have a few questions.
*you should meet my neighbor... 
you'd really develop some questions...
Is there some reason why you are not using TS w/ a dado blade???
*
When cutting the half lap joints for the internal ribs to cross each other, I understand it needs to be 1 9/16" deep on a 3" wide rib to allow a little room for the glue. 
*correct...
*
My plan was to sandwich all the ribs together as if they were one large piece, then make passes crossways with the router against a clamped on guide and basically make dadoes to form the cuts form the joints.
*okay...
*
I have a 11/16" wide plywood bit that is the exact width of the plywood thickness, and it will make my work much easier if I can use it *(much less router work needed), *
*how so???...*
however, it only has a 1/4" shank and it needs to stick out of the collet a good bit in order to allow a deep enough cut to make the joints. I looked at the bit in the collet while out of the router and the collet has a good bit of the shank still inside it, about 3/4", although it could cover another 1/4" if the shank was longer. I have put a pic of the bit in the router in this thread to show how it needs to be in order to make the cut. If this is too long, then I will need a plan B instead of this.
*so why not get you a 1/2" shank bit....
that's a lot of routering for a 1/4" shank...
is that a Ryobie bit???... if it is it will never finish the marathon...
are you trying this w/ a router in the 1HP range???... do you have a router that takes half inch shanks???...*

The possible plan B could be taking some of the width off the ribs so a shallower cut would work. 
*why waste the material???...
*
I have them cut pretty accurate now, as accurate as my abilities allowed for, probably all within 1/32" of the same width as far as I can tell, but I feel they could be closer. 
*PLEASE!!!! please stop over thinking this... 1/32" ain't squat in the grand scheme of things...
Pl will bridge 3/8'' on an inch...
put the grid then be concerned about flatness/coplanar and not until then,... 
*
I ran them through the table saw as a whole sheet the first time and this introduced inaccuracies from too much movement of an awkward cut. Some have just the slightest hint of a crown where the sheet must have moved away from the fence slightly and created a curved cut instead of dead straight. If I joint the edges of every strip, then run them througn the table saw again, I feel I could get them more accurate since it will be a strip at a time now and not a whole sheet, and at the same time make them thin enough for the plywood bit to work. Maybe go down to 2 1/2" inch?
*do what yo want but you have got to stop over thinking this...*


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

My bad , I forgot your bit is the same thickness as the wood . That makes it easier yet .
Dado a slot the same thickness as your material in a sacraficial board that's going to be screwed to your miter gauge . Install a piece of wood in that slot the same thickness as the material . This wood will extend past the face and is on the left of the board . 
You slide the material threw till you get the desired height , and then the cut you created fits in that piece of added block on the left and repeat


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## Duane Bledsoe (Jan 6, 2013)

RainMan1 said:


> I think your going to have to build a sled/jig system for your router table the more I think about it


That might work, however my fence is not removable without a good bit of work that feels more like dismantling it than just taking it off temporarily. Also, the amount of ribs I need to cut will be pretty heavy all at once, and the cuts out towards the ends will have them hanging so far off the table that they'd be very unwieldy I think.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Duane Bledsoe said:


> That might work, however my fence is not removable without a good bit of work that feels more like dismantling it than just taking it off temporarily. Also, the amount of ribs I need to cut will be pretty heavy all at once, and the cuts out towards the ends will have them hanging so far off the table that they'd be very unwieldy I think.


Ok I didn't know about the fence . And yes your right the material will be a little awkward alright when getting closer to the ends.

I'm talking about doing ONE rib at a time though . That pin on the left keeps them all consistent, because after you do the first cut you merely slide it down and the dado you just did rests in the pin and repeat .
The first cut would have the material sitting against the pin .

I had no idea the fence was that complicated to get off though , shame


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## Duane Bledsoe (Jan 6, 2013)

Ok, I went with the bit sticking out as shown in my previous post and just took shallow bites and multiple passes. It worked well. My set up was just to clamp all the ribs together and mark the dado paths, then clamp a guide a set distance back from the shoulder for the router to ride against and then plow it out. It worked well. The pics actually show only the cross ribs (bottoms) not the longer ones which I have not yet cut (the tops), but for this pic I flipped half of them over and locked them together as if they were tops and bottoms to test fit it all since I have never done this before and I wanted to see what it was turning out like. It is going beautifully as of now. It all fits together nicely. Not tight but not loose either, however there is some movement possible. Since the PL glue is supposed to do so well at bridging gaps of 3/8 or less then I should have a great result from all of this. My gaps are probably 1/64 - 1/32 at most, and I really suspect less than 1/32. I left a gap between where each board overlaps that is less than 1/8 total. The ribs are set on 9" centers so the squares formed in the frame are a little over 8" across inside.

So, later today I will try to get the longer pieces going. First I still have to do my lap joints to lengthen them. Then I will need to do the dado cuts on them the same as I did here, and then the skeleton of my torsion frame will be ready to assemble. I am carrying the half laps all the way to the outside band, as shown by the notches cut on the ends of them in the pics. Then I will have one more hard maple edge band to cover all of this and also add strenght to the whole thing. But before I can do any of that, I will need to get out a snow shovel and clean the shavings that are all over my garage. Wow!


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Duane awesome job! Your going to like those small gaps because I made mine so close they ended up being a PITA


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## Duane Bledsoe (Jan 6, 2013)

Yes, I think you're right. I took it all apart to lay out of the way and it was just a bit resistive to dismantle. Not too tough but it did take me more than a minute. If it was any tighter I doubt I'd have gotten it back apart.

I also did a couple of the scarf joints tonight as well. I cut the overlaps with about a 3" check. I cut the ends of four pieces to make two joints total. On the very first two of those pieces I let the router tip somewhat as I cut and the check ended up sort of chewed up. It isn't too deep, and the PL glue will take care of it easily, but I still don't like it. The second pair turned out as smooth as butter, and the way I did it, it ends up with each joint having a smooth check and a roughed up check together. Besides the PL glue to ensure a good bond, these two parts that I made will be at the edge of the frame, and be reinforced with the outer edge hard maple boards as well. I also plan to overlap each scarf joint with another layer of 3/4 birch plywood to further reinforce them, so I doubt this little hiccup will hurt me much, and I now know what I did wrong, have already corrected my technique, and have already seen a successful result when I routed the second pair. I have four more of these joints to make, so cutting 8 more parts to make them, and then I have to cut all the half lap dadoes in the long ribs. Still a lot of work left to do. 

One thing I don't understand. Earlier when I cut the dadoes, first I'd cut a shallow depth dado, then repeat with successively deeper cuts. By time I reached the bottom, the original top cut had gotten very slightly wider overall. I could tell by the slight ledge the bit left along the walls of the dado cut. Obviously this is due to either bit movement or router movement. I tried to be very careful as I made each pass, and the widening went both ways, not just one, so I ruled out the possibility of my clamped on guide moving and causing it since it was only on one side. Anybody else seen this before that can tell me why it happened?


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## Duane Bledsoe (Jan 6, 2013)

Another update. Sorry this project is taking so long. This past week I had to pull some overtime at work so today was my first opportunity to work in the shop some. 

I routed the half laps for the scarf joints tonight and then glued them up using the PL glue. I bought the PL premium. I might have put too much in the joints, or I might have over clamped them, because the glue kept squeezing out of the joints. I applied it just like shown but then I added more after that to try to make sure every spot on that surface was covered. I put them together and moved them around to spread it, then clamped them. When it squeezed out, I'd scrape it off and sometimes more would squeeze out again. I also only applied it to the broad mating faces as shown, not on the cut depth surfaces, mostly because it kept squeezing out and I didn't want it to be such a mess all around. I knew it would be stronger if I had glued all the mating surfaces and just let it squeeze out all around, but after these dry I am planning to finish the grid and then add another piece of wood bridging the span of the joints on both sides as well, so I think it will be plenty strong enough. At that point I will slather the glue in and not worry about being sloppy. The pieces I add will stretch end to end inside the squares of the grid so I will apply it even on the ends of them.

At this time, most of the joints are in the same place but once they are dry I will cut each strip to length to make the joints fall where I want them in the grid, staggered out. The strips are much longer than needed now so this will be easy. I drew out a diagram so I have something to follow. Should be easy.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

well done Duane...

that glue you have expands on it's own...
a plywood block will be stronger and more stable that the maple you are planing to use...
after the glue dries cut/shave off the squeeze out..
mild clamping pressure is all that is needed..

I have recommendations on how to get super flat if you are interested..


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## Duane Bledsoe (Jan 6, 2013)

Stick486 said:


> well done Duane...
> 
> that glue you have expands on it's own...
> a plywood block will be stronger and more stable that the maple you are planing to use...
> ...


Are you kidding, of course I'm interested! :smile:

I am planning to use plywood blocks. After I cut the strips to length I will have plenty left over to make my blocking with. The maple is only for the outside banding to finish the table top, and even that will be sistered to the plywood band inside. 

I also went with 4" overlaps instead of my originally planned 3". I also redone the two I routed last week that I let the router tip on and roughed up the joint in doing so. Now that I have used this glue I can see it wasn't even necessary but I am glad I did it anyway. I see it as me disciplining myself as a woodworker to shoot for the stars. If I land on the moon it will still be stellar, but if I just shoot for the moon then I would come up short of even that. 

Man, that PL glue is going to be stupid strong! I just unclamped one of my strips, the first one I did, which was only about 2 hours ago. This strip is just shy of 10' long as is. You'd think with the joint directly in the middle that it might give some under pressure, but when I propped it up and beared down on it a bit (just a little because I didn't fully trust it yet) it didn't flex any at all. It might be full strength now, or in 24 hours, but I can tell when this table is finally finished, I might just be able to park a bus on it!


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Duane Bledsoe said:


> Are you kidding, of course I'm interested! :smile:


I am planning to use plywood blocks. 
*good..*

After I cut the strips to length I will have plenty left over to make my blocking with. The maple is only for the outside banding to finish the table top,
*you banding the the edges of both plys or will you be letting them show... 
I need to know...*

I also went with 4" overlaps instead of my originally planned 3". I also redone the two I routed last week that I let the router tip on and roughed up the joint in doing so. 
*the glue wold have fixed any irregularities/imperfections for you...
*
Now that I have used this glue I can see it wasn't even necessary but I am glad I did it anyway. I see it as me disciplining myself as a woodworker to shoot for the stars. If I land on the moon it will still be stellar, but if I just shoot for the moon then I would come up short of even that. 
*excellent mind set...*

Man, that PL glue is going to be stupid strong! 
*I trust you wouldn't really mind a "We tol'ja so"...
*
I just unclamped one of my strips, the first one I did, which was only about 2 hours ago. This strip is just shy of 10' long as is. You'd think with the joint directly in the middle that it might give some under pressure, but when I propped it up and beared down on it a bit (just a little because I didn't fully trust it yet) it didn't flex any at all. It might be full strength now, or in 24 hours, but I can tell when this table is finally finished, I might just be able to park a bus on it!
*two if they'll fit...*


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## Duane Bledsoe (Jan 6, 2013)

What I am planning is to build the full grid from the 3/4" birch plywood, band and all. Then add another band around the perimeter of the hard maple sistered to the plywood band. The top and bottom sheets of plywood over the grid will be inside the hardwood band. I thought of running the top sheet over top of the hardwood but I just decided I wouldn't like that look.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Duane Bledsoe said:


> What I am planning is to build the full grid from the 3/4" birch plywood, band and all. Then add another band around the perimeter of the hard maple sistered to the plywood band.


I got that...
but will you be covering the 3/4'' edge of the plywood top and bottom sheets???...


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## Duane Bledsoe (Jan 6, 2013)

Yep, absolutely stupid strong! I just beared into that strip as if trying to break it and I got no flex at all. I already unclamped all of them. They're ready to be worked. Wow, I'm so impressed with that PL glue. Any projects I have where this is appropriate in the future, especially any outdoor projects, I will be using it.


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## Duane Bledsoe (Jan 6, 2013)

Stick486 said:


> I got that...
> but will you be covering the 3/4'' edge of the plywood top and bottom sheets???...


Sorry, I must have been editing my post as you typed yours. Yes, I will be covering the edges of the plywood with the hardwood. I just like that look better. I'd just end up tearing up the edges of the plywood if I left it exposed.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Duane Bledsoe said:


> Yes, I will be covering the edges of the plywood with the hardwood.


okay...

mount you top sheet to the table frame good side to the frame...
four short screws will do fine...

now test the ply for flatness ...
because it's wood you will never get it absolutely perfect but but pretty damn close...
to twist/torque/flatten the ply use shims stuck between the frame and ply...
if the sheet is cupped or bowed the frame will fix that...
use the frame and shims to remove twist...

dry fit the frame...mark the frame layout on the ply...
predrill for *ALL* of your pocket screws...
think of how you are going to assemble.. 
now is the time to do assembly dry runs so you can find any difficulties in fit and sequence...
do several so you can get it down pat...

remember that 1/32'' you were worried about???... 
but let me guess... you ripped the ribs down like you were thinking of doing...
this is where that issue begins to disappear..

as you glue up the grid work at keeping it square and *DO NOT *get ahead of yourself...
screw the ribs down to act as a clamps... snugly now and not tight...
if you apply glue but don't assemble scrape the glue off and let it dry...
fresh glue will stick just fine to the old w/o any issues...
*what does the tube say about cure time???...*

call it day and let the glue set up really well...
come back tomorrow or in 4 or 5 hours and we'll continue......

I sure hope you have a sharp LA hand plane....
an electric will do if you are careful...


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## Duane Bledsoe (Jan 6, 2013)

Stick486 said:


> okay...
> 
> mount you top sheet to the table frame good side to the frame...
> four short screws will do fine...
> ...


No, I didn't rip the strips again as I had said I was thinking about doing. You told me to stop overthinking it so I did and just left them as they were. They are all still at 3" with some having an ever slight variance at certain points. I'm not even sure that is from the initial ripping, it seems to be from slight bowing on the worst of them because I was able to press them down and have them line up with the others. When I say worst, I mean 1/32" or so. Way less than 1/16". We will see how I did on the long glue ups this afternoon. Putting two pieces together end to end and holding them straight seems like it would be easy to introduce a bow in it. I used a 4' long aluminum straight edge to align them when gluing. 

I can see I will need to get a plane. I don't own a single one. I will need to check around to see about one locally or just order one from Amazon or something. Any non bank breaking suggestions?

When you say predrill every hole for the pocket screws, do you mean into the mating surface of the plywood top also? I thought all I had to do was use the Kreg jig on the torsion frame ribs only (to clarify, I understand that if also drilling the top sheet is necessary that I won't be using the jig on it).

When assembling the grid, would I do it one piece at a time onto the upside down top sheet or would I already have the whole grid glued and assembled and then attach it to the sheet?

The only thing I saw about cure time was to use mechanical support for 24 ours during cure. I took the clamps off after just 2 hours, but mine weren't under any load overnight by just laying there, although I did bear into that one pretty hard as a test and it passed admirably.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

No, I didn't rip the strips again as I had said I was thinking about doing. You told me to stop over-thinking it so I did 
*paid off too, didn't...*

We will see how I did on the long glue ups this afternoon. Putting two pieces together end to end and holding them straight seems like it would be easy to introduce a bow in it. I used a 4' long aluminum straight edge to align them when gluing.
*if they are slightly out don't fret about and don't try to fix them....
*
I can see I will need to get a plane. I don't own a single one. 
*WOW!!!*

I will need to check around to see about one locally or just order one from Amazon or something. Any non bank breaking suggestions?
*I have a love affair going w/ my Veritas planes...
they are cat's meow and will last for generations to come...
pleasure to use...
I believe they are an excellent value...
the PM-11 iron really impresses me...
About Veritas® Planes - Lee Valley Tools
Veritas® Block Planes - Lee Valley Tools

the PDF on the #92 Sweetheart shoulder plane lays out some serious issues but it appears the same issues afflict a lot of the newer generation Sweethearts...
look for older Stanley/Bailey planes and up grade the irons...
HINT: there is nothing stopping you from getting one plane and having several different irons (blades) w/ different bevel angles...
in short.. you take one plane body and use it to serve as several different planes simply changing the irons...

to shave/trim/plane the edges of plywood it takes a LA plane (Low Angle)... a LA skew plane is even better...
so whet you do is take your LA plane and angle the body of the plane to the ply's edge so that the iron is angled to the grain...
your plane is now functioning as a skew plane...
*
When you say predrill every hole for the pocket screws, do you mean into the mating surface of the plywood top also?
*NO... only into the ribs.. 
doing this is you savior come assembly time...
the screws are your clamps... have the pocket holes ready to go..
HINT: you are ready to affix a rib...
clean away any sawdust laying on the sheet.. you don't want inadvertent shimming from the sawdust...
place the screws in the pocket hole but do not drive them.. just place them..
apply your adhesive to the sheet not the rib... save making a mess w/ the glue up..
affix the rib...
that pre-placeing of the screws will really work for you... any screws you choose not to drive you can just take out.....
remember not to over tighten your screws to limit squeeze out and torquing/flexing the sheet into a shape you do not wnt...
*
I thought all I had to do was use the Kreg jig on the torsion frame ribs only 
(to clarify, I understand that if also drilling the top sheet is necessary that I won't be using the jig on it).
*not sure what you mean...*

When assembling the grid, would I do it one piece at a time onto the upside down top sheet or would I already have the whole grid glued and assembled and then attach it to the sheet?
*I believe I would install a long edge rib and the install one short rib at a time squared to long rib w/ the dado up...
this is where a dry run pre-assembly is invaluable 
clamp those short ribs into place and not w/ the screws
test fit your cross ribs...
adjust your mortises for fit and remember.. your adhesive will bridge up to 3/8''...
I trust none of these blind joints fit together tightly.. you need room for adhesive..
in about five minuets it will be clear as day to you why so many take the blocking route...*

The only thing I saw about cure time was to use mechanical support for 24 hours during cure. I took the clamps off after just 2 hours, 
but mine weren't under any load overnight by just laying there, although I did bear into that one pretty hard as a test and it passed admirably.
*BUT!!! you took off the clamps off and allowed the adhesive to swell/grow and form air bubbles in it's self...
cross section a blob of the stuff...*

*HINT:* applying adhesive to the dadoes...
do it w/ a stick like a tongue depressor to the insides of each dado of the blind only..
put the glue on the stick then spread it into place...
plastic spatula is 1st rate... clean the spatula often...
PL cleans really well w/ mineral spirits when it's wet...
if you are using a stick.. apply one row of joints and then toss the stick... spatula??? clean it...
if toy let the adhesive film/skin up you are asking for issues...

grid all in???...

now is the time to add blocks for those some day maybe bench dogs... one row?? two rows?? maybe over here??? maybe over there...
2 by's will be fine.. double thick or stacked up pieces of ribs..... these blocks need to be as thick as the ribs are deep.. trust me... 
add the scarf joint plates.. one side is fine... 2 sides is unnecessary overkill...
add the blocks for table frame screws...
add blocks for underside mounted tail or side vises...
throw in some blocks just because you have some left overs...


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

+1 on the Veritas planes! For the money they can't be beat..


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## Duane Bledsoe (Jan 6, 2013)

Ok, I learned a lesson about unclamping too early. That PL glue is ridiculously strong but it did expand and pushed the joints apart a little bit. It won't hurt the final result since it just expanded horizontally which will be inside the table and have no bearing on things. Total expansion was about 1/16" or less. I plan to bridge each joint with a plywood block anyway, and I will clamp each one and leave it for 24 hours next time. The glue will bridge a wide gap, much wider than what will be caused between the joints and the block due to prior expansion. So all is still good. 

Now for some fun! I finished the grid tonight, routed all the dadoes for the half laps, and then I locked it all together for a dry fit on the table frame. The grid squares are framed on 9" centers, as shown on the ruler in one of the pics. Man, it impressed me, and I just know this is going to be a great work bench when finished. Very solid. Very stable. Very flat and straight. I can't wait to get it finished and start making all the things on my list using this table to ensure square builds with precise results. This is turning out awesome!


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Great job Duane , that's looking great so far . Shame that PL expands , that I wasn't aware of . Are you using the PL to attach the top too ?


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## Duane Bledsoe (Jan 6, 2013)

I'm using PL on all of it. Expansion won't be a problem on the rest. I will use clamps on the rest to ensure it comes out right. I'll use pocket hole screws to secure the grid frame to the underside of the plywood so it doesn't expand and push the plywood up from the frame. When I put the bottom sheet on I will glue it also and then brad nail it on. I may have to use cauls to keep that one from expanding.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Duane Bledsoe said:


> Ok, I learned a lesson about unclamping too early. That PL glue is ridiculously strong but it did expand and pushed the joints apart a little bit. It won't hurt the final result since it just expanded horizontally which will be inside the table and have no bearing on things. Total expansion was about 1/16" or less. I plan to bridge each joint with a plywood block anyway, and I will clamp each one and leave it for 24 hours next time. The glue will bridge a wide gap, much wider than what will be caused between the joints and the block due to prior expansion. So all is still good.
> 
> Now for some fun! I finished the grid tonight, routed all the dadoes for the half laps, and then I locked it all together for a dry fit on the table frame. The grid squares are framed on 9" centers, as shown on the ruler in one of the pics. Man, it impressed me, and I just know this is going to be a great work bench when finished. Very solid. Very stable. Very flat and straight. I can't wait to get it finished and start making all the things on my list using this table to ensure square builds with precise results. This is turning out awesome!


looking good dude...
and yes it is turning out awesome...

the PL expands till it meets resistance to fill voids and bridge gaps...
this a plus feature of the adhesive...
this is also why you don't over clamp,,, or tighten down the pocket screws...
remember me telling you that irregularities will work themselves out and quit fretting... 
BTW.. let squeeze out happen... shave/cut it off later..

do your half laps go together and pull apart easily??? they need to to capitalize on the expanding feature of the adhesive and to get the maximum strength of the adhesive.....


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Duane Bledsoe said:


> I'm using PL on all of it. Expansion won't be a problem on the rest. I will use clamps on the rest to ensure it comes out right. I'll use pocket hole screws to secure the grid frame to the underside of the plywood so it doesn't expand and push the plywood up from the frame. When I put the bottom sheet on I will glue *it also and then brad nail it on.* I may have to use cauls to keep that one from expanding.


ummmmmm....
brad nails aren't a good choice... no head...
pocket screws w/o the pocket would be a very god choice... it won't take many...


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## Duane Bledsoe (Jan 6, 2013)

The half laps are slightly resistive. I had to use a rubber mallet in two places to get them together but mostly I can just push them together by hand and then remove them again the same way. I didn't need the hammer to get them apart. They came out easily.


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## tomp913 (Mar 7, 2014)

*Another Torsion Box Top*

While browsing my folder of saved/scanned articles on the computer, I came across this 1987 article from _Popular Mechanics_ on building a torsion box top for a workbench. While the method is completely different, the interesting part of the article is setting up to get a dead flat surface on which to assemble the top.

Somewhere, and I'll keep looking, I remember an article about building a top using a pre-made cardboard honeycomb similar to that used in making hollow core doors - and I believe that they listed a source for the honeycomb too. I don't remember if the article showed setting in blocks for mounting legs, vises, etc. or not.

Tom


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Good article Tom and I would be interested in seeing that source for honeycomb. Back in the late 60s they were building buildings out of that honeycomb with an aluminum skin glued to each side. It was used for walls and floor and was only 4" thick.


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## tomp913 (Mar 7, 2014)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> Good article Tom and I would be interested in seeing that source for honeycomb. Back in the late 60s they were building buildings out of that honeycomb with an aluminum skin glued to each side. It was used for walls and floor and was only 4" thick.


The article I was thinking about is in Fine Woodworking Issue #151, and was written describing making the top for a dining table. I have the DVD, not the original article. Other articles found in a Google search discuss making the honeycomb from wood or plywood, and with either egg-crate joints like Duane's or stapled joints like the article I posted. The article in FWW doesn't address inserting blocks to support items like the router plate, etc. 

There is a source for the honeycomb mentioned in the article - Vacuum Pressing Systems in Brunswick, ME (207) 725 - 0935.

Tom


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

*hope you don't mind this inclusion to your thread...*

your torsion table and long range thinking...
you have the grid installed to the top sheet and prepped for flatness...
now you are adding blocks for screws/bench dogs/vises and what ever else you can think of...
make those blocks/plates/cats the thickness of the webs... call them through blocks...
plates are squares of ply stacked up 3'' thick or near that just so so that they aren't proud of the ribs that fill a square...

drill flat bottomed 1/2'' holes w/ a forstner bit just deep enough for the heads of the screws into the bottom sheet's better face...
you are looking to flush the heads of the screws... use fine threaded screws...
this is a predrill operation well before the adhesive is placed...
you are using pocket screws because of the type head they have...
can we say exploiting here???... better holding and draw down..
and it won't take many.. three or four per every other short rib will be plenty .. add more if it makes you happy...

install the bottom sheet of ply...
adhesive to the ribs.... suggest a bead of adhesive about 1/8 to 3/16'' thick and 3/8'' wide... leave any squeeze out till after it dries...
add the ply.. rim clamp.. add cauls..
you know, cauls don't need to be anything more than some pipe clamps w/ wedges driven between the pipe and plywood...
drill your pilot hole for the screw shank using the forstner bit's center point as a locator...

as you install the screws.. start in the center and work out wards so that sheet of ply will roll out flat...
take your time but hurry...
if you have somebody to drill the pilot hole for you and you install the screws this is a very good deal... or the the other way around..
don't pilot drill too far ahead of yourself... you don't want splintered ply becoming shims..
REMEMBER try not to over drive the screws... snug is a wonderful thing...
HEY!!! yur the one that demand flat... we are really going to work at giving it to you... (there is an ulterior motive afoot here)...

the top is done now and you are happily working along............. *AND*.........................

OH NO!!!!! some nefarious catastrophe strikes and severely damages your top.... I mean really tears it up...
you hang your head and go find closet to hide in, suck your thumb and weep....
now that you got that out of your system you head down to the shop...

you unscrew the top from the frame....
flip it over... mount it to the frame...
pull the pocket screws... no sense in tearing up a cutter because you accidentally hit one...
fill the countersinks...
install a new hardboard cover... and you are back in business...
and all those blocks you put in for the original top are available to you with/for the new top that was once the bottom...
you may never have to flip the top over but if you ever have to you are good to go....
a simple flip over halves the price and labor of a one sided top in a heartbeat...


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

a couple of thoughts...

when you fasten on the bottom ply 1½'' screws would be a better bet..
ribs to top sheet.. aim for ½'' penetration into the top sheet.. no bumps please...
the grid you have is fine because of the thick top and bottom sheets,,,
thinner tops and bottoms require a higher rib count...
higher rib count asks for thinner ribs...
a door skin wold like a 4'' rib spacing w/ the ribs a ¼'' thick...
it's a weight to strength ratio...
make it too heavy and a lot of it's strength is used on it's self... 

look at the bright side...
after all this if you were to build anther you'd buzz right through it...


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## Duane Bledsoe (Jan 6, 2013)

Looks like the torsion box is on a little hold again. Overtime at work calls. I will try to get back on it next week.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

*Gaffboat's jigs*

Oliver came up w/ these for bulk cutting dadoes and hogging out...
some to file away...


.


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## Duane Bledsoe (Jan 6, 2013)

More progress! On Sunday, I went to Home Depot and brought home two 4x8 sheets of purebond 3/4" thick birch plywood to form the top and bottom of my bench top. Also bought a full sheet of 3/16 hardboard for the replaceable top. It is smooth on one side only. I looked for some that was smooth on both sides but this is all they had so I took it. 

So tonight I crosscut the plywood sheets to roughly 3/4" longer than the overall torsion box length, to give me room to square it up and also flush trim it when I am finished building the frame. I did not rip it for width. The torsion box will be 46" wide when assembled so that leaves an inch overhang on both sides. Should I also rip it so it's a closer fit or will the flush trim bit just zip right through it anyway? It's no more than plowing a dado 1/2" wide and 3/4" deep under other circumstances. I bought a brand new 1/2" Amana flush trim bit for this, with 1/2" shank. I'm thinking it will just plow it right off. 

I also crosscut the hardboard to a couple of inches longer than the final finished bench top, including the maple hardwood sides. I will flush trim it the same way once it is all finished. 

Then I predrilled all the pocket holes in the torsion frame ribs, taking care to watch which side was up on each one. I drilled one hole between each half lap joint along the rib lengths, except where I had made other half laps on the longer ribs to extend their length. Just didn't want to put a pocket hole right through those joints. Once I was finished with these, I dry fitted everything once more to see how things were going. I was sure I had done right but rather than rethink it all over and over I just did it this way so if I'd made any mistakes they might seem more obvious. I observed none. In looking at the picture, do you think I made too many pocket holes? 

Stick, we talked about the ribs fitting together too tighty. Well, tonight as I dry fitted it again, I noticed the joints seem to fit slightly looser than before. Expansion maybe? They are still very close fitting, as in MAYBE a couple of sheets of paper would go between them. Is this still too tight? Should I just go ahead and use the pull saw on them to give them some space anyway? I did this on two of them as an experiment, one actually from necessity because it was just too tight to come back apart so I had to loosen it with the pull saw on both ribs (cut one, flip it over and cut the other). 

Also, as I near the assembly stage, I would really like for this not to be too complex with shims and all. Over the weekend I had the thought to go get three 2x4's, crosscut them in half to form six boards 48" long, joint one edge of each one, and then put them through the table saw to make uniform widths of all six of them. Then I would lay these across the metal bench frame (first ensuring it is level and square) and use them as a work surface for the top sheet of plywood to rest on, good face down, and do my torsion rib frame assembly on this. That is about as good as I would get, I believe, in making the final outcome dead flat, or as close as can be, and it's probably as good as I'd ever need for anything I'd build on it anyway. Also, once I am finished with the 2x4's, I can then use them as framing for the storage shelf on the bottom of the bench below the torsion box top. Being jointed and straightened, they'd do nicely with a sheet of OSB screwed on to store my cutoffs. That shelf doesn't have to stay as flat as the bench top does so 2x4's would work there even if they bowed some later. I am liking that there would be no waste using this method. 

As you can see from the pics, the ribs are all nice and straight as they cross over each other. No zig zags here, just a solid, square grid. The pic shows a slight gap below the frame between the plywood and ribs. This is due to a slight curve in the plywood (explained below). The frame is not screwed down, and that sheet is not the top sheet which will dictate flatness as it is assembled.

I am really learning a lot on this build. Before this I had never worked with baltic birch, never even heard of purebond birch, never made a torsion box, and never did pocket hole joinery. The Kreg K4 jig is wonderful! Not so much as one speck of sawdust spilled when using the vac attachment and being careful to not just jerk the spinning bit out of the hole as soon as it is drilled. If I came up slowly to moderate, every speck was caught. I was somewhat surprised to see that the jig was made to be used with even 1" thick supports for long pieces of wood. I would have thought either 3/4" or 1 1/2" since those are common sizes to have laying around, but it just so happened that I had some 1x1 here that I had made on the table saw for my door trim project and I used that to support the long ribs as I drilled all the pocket holes. Also, this purebond plywood, I can't speak highly enough about it. Very good quality stuff. Lowe's should be ashamed letting Home Depot outclass them by not carrying this product in their stores. This is not baltic birch, but as big box plywood goes, I've found none better. It has fairly thick veneers on both sides, one side being clear of defects. The veneers are thicker than standard cabinet grade plywood, as far as I can see. It has 5 plys through the core, and is nearly void free. And IT IS formaldehyde free, and I believe it is made in the USA. I found no voids on the edges of my two sheets, nor in the crosscuts either, and I saw only one edge void in the entire stack at Home Depot. It also is as straight and flat as any plywood I have seen, though one sheet of mine was slightly curved from side to side and it did worsen over the last two days, but not horribly. It is a gentle, even bow, though, and should pull flat as I assemble the table top. I will use it as the underside. The piece I selected for the top is very flat. One final bonus, a full sheet seems to be very light compared to other 4x8 plys. I can lift a full sheet alone and lay it on my bench and it is not overly hard to do.

By the way, that's my 2014 Nissan Frontier truck in the background. The thing is part mountain goat, I swear it will go anywhere. I've not needed the 4wd yet, even in 10"-12" of snow, plowing my own paths through it! It was awesome! You gotta get one o' dese babies! Wow!


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

SWMBO drives an '03 Nissan Xterra; mountain goat is right!
(She lets me drive it if I'm good.)


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Duane Bledsoe said:


> More progress! On Sunday,


More progress! On Sunday, I went to Home Depot and brought home two 4x8 sheets of purebond 3/4" thick birch plywood to form the top and bottom of my bench top.
*this going to be quite the top...
* 
Also bought a full sheet of 3/16 hardboard for the replaceable top. It is smooth on one side only. I looked for some that was smooth on both sides but this is all they had so I took it.
*it isn't tempered but in the grand scheme of things it won't matter...
because of the textured side carpet DS mesh tape is going to be your friend... thin is good...
*
So tonight I crosscut the plywood sheets to roughly 3/4" longer than the overall torsion box length, to give me room to square it up and also flush trim it when I am finished building the frame.
*square and use one short and one long edge to control the squaring of the frame...
*
I did not rip it for width. The torsion box will be 46" wide when assembled so that leaves an inch overhang on both sides. 
Should I also rip it so it's a closer fit or will the flush trim bit just zip right through it anyway?
*rip it closer.. and now it won't ''zip right through...
*
It's no more than plowing a dado 1/2" wide and 3/4" deep under other circumstances. I bought a brand new 1/2" Amana flush trim bit for this, with 1/2" shank. I'm thinking it will just plow it right off.
*the less you cut w/ the router the kinder you are to the bit and you will extend it's longevity...
the glue in that ply will be unkind to your bit...*

I also crosscut the hardboard to a couple of inches longer than the final finished bench top, including the maple hardwood sides. I will flush trim it the same way once it is all finished.
*that will be fine but set the sheet so you only trim two sides...
think in terms of more bit preservation... don't kill the bit, save it for many more jobs and stretch your $$$$.....*

Then I predrilled all the pocket holes in the torsion frame ribs, taking care to watch which side was up on each one. I drilled one hole between each half lap joint along the rib lengths, except where I had made other half laps on the longer ribs to extend their length. Just didn't want to put a pocket hole right through those joints. Once I was finished with these, I dry fitted everything once more to see how things were going. I was sure I had done right but rather than rethink it all over and over I just did it this way so if I'd made any mistakes they might seem more obvious. I observed none. In looking at the picture, do you think I made too many pocket holes?
*looks to be that you have a really handle on things...
no, you did not drill too many pockets...
in fact add a pocket to each joint's plate...*

Stick, we talked about the ribs fitting together too tighty. Well, tonight as I dry fitted it again, I noticed the joints seem to fit slightly looser than before. Expansion maybe? They are still very close fitting, as in MAYBE a couple of sheets of paper would go between them. Is this still too tight?
*No... iff you can slide the paper in...
*
Should I just go ahead and use the pull saw on them to give them some space anyway?
*only one tight ones..no paper.. it's tight...
* 
I did this on two of them as an experiment, one actually from necessity because it was just too tight to come back apart so I had to loosen it with the pull saw on both ribs (cut one, flip it over and cut the other).
*were they sloppy after the pull-saw ???...
*
Also, as I near the assembly stage, I would really like for this not to be too complex with shims and all. 
*DO NOT use shims any place.. for any reason...
you will do well by marking gaps at the pocket holes between the ribs and the ply on the plys so when you install the screws you don't over drive them and end up screwing w/ the flatness..
a lot of adhesive squeeze out = over tightening......*

Over the weekend I had the thought to go get three 2x4's, crosscut them in half to form six boards 48" long, joint one edge of each one, and then put them through the table saw to make uniform widths of all six of them. 
*adding ribs to the frame as joists will be a HUGE plus in improving your table...*

Then I would lay these across the metal bench frame (first ensuring it is level and square) and use them as a work surface for the top sheet of plywood to rest on, good face down, and do my torsion rib frame assembly on this. 
*do a minimal screw down of the ply to the frame... flatness rules, do what you need to do to get there... level isn't important...
*
That is about as good as I would get, I believe, in making the final outcome dead flat, or as close as can be, 
*that is EXACTLY where we are going a step at a time...
also we trying to avoid more work and any one step or multiple steps causing running interference...
as in over tightening the pocket screws and flexing the ribs or putting dips in them or putting swales in the ply...*

and it's probably as good as I'd ever need for anything I'd build on it anyway. 
*you are headed for the better...*

Also, once I am finished with the 2x4's, I can then use them as framing for the storage shelf on the bottom if the bench below the torsion box top. Being jointed and straightened, they'd do nicely with a sheet of OSB screwed on to store my cutoffs. That shelf doesn't have to stay as flat as the bench top does so I am liking that there would be no waste using this method.

As you can see from the pics, the ribs are all nice and straight as they cross over each other. No zig zags here, just a solid, square grid.
*noticed.. KUDOS...

now practice rib assembly...
suggest you clearly mark the dry fit on the plywood... 
mount a long rib to one edge...
install the short ribs mortise up...
install the rest of the long ribs...
install the last two outside ribs..
this where the slightly loose joints pays off...
remember to apply your adhesive with a spreader to the blinds and be quick about it......
do one long rib at a time and don't ahead of yourself...
leave squeeze out alone till dry and then shave it off if it's the way... otherwise leave it be...*


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Duanne to me it looks as though they overlapping boards are differant heights , or is it the pic? 
Not that it matters I guess as long as the ones attached to the top are flat plus the PL should compensate for small discrepancies . 
Looks really good so far . It's amazing the amount of hours these things can consume . I'm going to have to go threw your thread from beginning to end as I want to do something simular


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## Duane Bledsoe (Jan 6, 2013)

In the pic they are different heights because the grid is assembled on top of that one sheet of ply that is curved up at the edges so it is causing the shorter ribs to not sit all the way down. When I get started doing the final assembly I will use that piece for the bottom. At that point the grid will be screwed and bonded to the much flatter sheet already so it should pull down flat then. The bottom sheet will be screwed on and bonded also.


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## Duane Bledsoe (Jan 6, 2013)

I just noticed, you can see a harbor freight work bench in the background of a couple of these pics. It makes a nice size comparison. The torsion box bench looks huge compared to them. It should, is is more than double the size. Final dimensions will be 48" x 68". With a bench that size I should be able to build any sized piece of furniture I want, or else I'll have plenty of room for tools, drawings, and any other item I want handy during smaller projects. This bench will also serve as my outfeed table on my table saw. One more idea I am toying with is to add one of the three tail vices I have that came from the harbor freight benches onto this new bench top. I'm just using the HF benches as counters due to drawer space, and narrowness of them at 20" to save space in my small shop. Regular countertops would have been 25" deep, and since I have benches on both sides I'd have lost 10" of width across a 13' wide room going with those. I could have just reduced the torsion box size in that case but I'd rather have the space here as opposed to wall counter surfaces. Not to mention, I'd already bought all those benches with the original idea of using two of them back to back to make one large space similar to what I am now building. An uneven floor made that all but impossible, and even the bench surfaces proved to be irregular so I just decided to use them in this manner. It makes the vice unable to be used so I just removed them all.


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## Duane Bledsoe (Jan 6, 2013)

A little more progress tonight. 

I had some returns to take back to Lowe's, just stuff we'd bought for the new house but didn't use. Of course I can't find the receipt so the credit goes on a gift card, which is fine because I'll spend it for sure. So I got some more items for this project.

So, as mentioned earlier in this thread, I plan to use three 2x4's, crosscut in half, edge jointed and then ripped to uniform width. I got three of the straightest (relative term there) 2x4's I could get from their top choice selection. Tonight I cut these as described above. Their final measurement is 1 1/2" x 2 15/16", cut specifically to fit into the C frame rails of the Kreg bench for use as joists below a storage shelf once they are done serving as a uniform plane surface to build the torsion box on. I should be fairly pleased with the results based on the fact that I can stack six of these on edge vertically and the stack is pretty stable. I think normally this would have been wobbly, so that tells me I must have done a decent job on them. What distresses me is that I can see daylight between two of them where they meet. I tried everything I knew to get them to come out right but that one board simply would not joint without a slight bow in it, even after about 20 passes removing 1/32 at a time. I attempted to measure the gap using a steel ruler and it appears less than 1/32 total. I know I'm splitting hairs and I'm not concerned at all how this affects this project, but I also want to learn while doing it. Has anyone had this happen before? It's just cheap pine lumber so I'm sure that affects it. Maybe internal stresses being released? It seemed to center on that large knot as I jointed it. At one point it was getting worse and worse, making a somewhat straight board into a rocker, but I started working it in the center only, then went back to full passes and got it back straight again. Once I had them all done I clamped them together, not tight, just barely snug, to keep them straight until I can use them. I don't trust dimensional lumber at all. 

Also, since I had a gift card and need a plane for this project, I decided to get one. I figured about any one would do, it's just to dress the plywood edges of the inside rib frame, and it will only be in a spot or two. I promise I didn't just buy the cheapest one. But I only spent $15 on a 6 1/4" long block plane. I chose it because it was the only one that looked like it had an adjustable width mouth. None of them got rave reviews, which I tried to look at online before choosing. I liked the larger bench plane the best but the tote (handle?) felt too short for my hand. I'd have to let one finger stick out as I used it, so I passed on it. They had a 7" block plane also, and it had more complex adjustments, but the way it appeared I'd grip it looked suspect to me. Since I couldn't open them and test them I just figured I'd get one, try it out and either return it if I don't like it, or work it over trying to flatten the sole, sharpen the blade, adjust it, and either have a decent first plane, or destroy it and call it a cheap learning experience. 

Also bought a Stanley surform. Plastic yellow handle, single hand grip. I did try it briefly on a scrap 2x6. It is rough as a cob. Only way I could make it somewhat work was to skew my angle as I slid it. It was catchy and left very rough results and seemed to clog easily. Not sure if I'll keep this or not. I watched a youtube video of one in use and the guy was just going to town with it but I could not make it move that way. It was less than $6.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

you got the surform for drywall...
micro cut is for wood... think fine tooth...


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## Duane Bledsoe (Jan 6, 2013)

Stick486 said:


> you got the surform for drywall...
> micro cut is for wood... think fine tooth...


Doh! 

That's just my luck. Ok, I will return it. Sure could have used such a tool on many an occasion in the past. Never knew about it.

No comment on that block plane?


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Duane Bledsoe said:


> Doh!
> 
> That's just my luck. Ok, I will return it. Sure could have used such a tool on many an occasion in the past. Never knew about it.
> 
> No comment on that block plane?


Duane; hang on to it! There's (always) drywall in your future. 
Seriously, if you get rid of it (and you _have_ used it) you _will _need it for something down the road. VoE!!!


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## vindaloo (May 30, 2009)

Do they do replacement foils for the surform of differing grades?


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## Duane Bledsoe (Jan 6, 2013)

Ok, I'll keep the thing. I do deal with drywall on occasion as an apartment maintenance man. But you know how it is, you work at a job long enough and develop your own techniques and all. I have gotten so I don't have as much need for something like this now. It's rare that I need to shave a panel to make it fit anymore.

What is the sawtooth edge for? Cleaning up rough cut paper edges on drywall after using a drywall saw, maybe?


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Great Job!!*

This thread has been and continues to be an outstanding example of a start to finish "how to". From planning to execution of a top shelf build that includes the why's and why nots. Duane, Stick and to all who have contributed and will continue to contribute though its conclusion: 

VERY WELL DONE!!!


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## Duane Bledsoe (Jan 6, 2013)

Oh my goodness, I feel as if I have just struck gold! 

Last night I posted about the plane I bought in this thread. While shopping I looked at several others too and noticed that one plane I held in my hand had a tote that only allowed for a 3 fingered grip, which I decided I didn't like just due to comfort and nothing else. Well, I must have been holding it wrong. I had my pinky finger sticking out, or I was cramming all four fingers onto the too small grip. 

Just now, I read an article that explained why it was made that way. They are made on purpose apparently, and the author specifically preferred planes with 3 fingered grip totes, seeing his index finger extended and pointed forward as a cue to the brain to stay straight as he slides the plane along the work surface. Wow! To me this has just become priceless knowledge and changed my whole outlook on planes in a single sentence. At the same time it made me thing of gripping the plane, how my grip would be weaker, thereby possibly preventing me from bearing into it too hard. Again, priceless knowledge. Made me want to go buy a jack plane right now and start working with it to see these things proven before my eyes. 

That one sentence simultaneously let me know the tote was the correct size, taught me how to hold it, and gave me insight into using it that might have taken me a long time to just learn on my own!

I'd post a link but I found it through clicking a series of other links and it is a pdf file. It is by Chris Schwarz, entitled bevel up vs. bevel down planes, and is on woodandshop.com according to the pdf file.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Duane Bledsoe said:


> Doh!
> 
> That's just my luck. Ok, I will return it. Sure could have used such a tool on many an occasion in the past. Never knew about it.
> 
> No comment on that block plane?


keep the one you have and get the micro-fine replacement blade...
the blades are cheap...

http://www.amazon.com/Stanley-21-398-2-Inch-Surform-Replacement/dp/B00002X1ZP
Stanley 10 in. Surform Plane-21-296 - The Home Depot
Stanley Surform 5-1/2 in. Pocket Fine-Cut Replacement Blade for 21-399-21-398 - The Home Depot


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

vindaloo said:


> Do they do replacement foils for the surform of differing grades?


they do and there are are something like 4 different grades/types...


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Duane Bledsoe said:


> Doh!
> 
> That's just my luck. Ok, I will return it. Sure could have used such a tool on many an occasion in the past. Never knew about it.
> 
> *No comment on that block plane*?


and you'll need it in the future...
so what plane did you get and what shape is it in???
is it a LA (low Angle) ???...


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## Duane Bledsoe (Jan 6, 2013)

I got the one pictured below, Lowe's item 118007. I don't know if it is LA or not. Packaging didn't say. I've been playing with it some this morning on a scrap piece of 2x10. It will shave a paper thin sliver but it is catchy as I slide it. Not sure if it is my technique or a not sharp enough blade. Probably both but so far I've learned to lighten my pressure and it works better. Also skew the angle as I slide it and it will sometimes work better. I have had it took apart and reassembled again to try to adjust it. I have it set about 1/32 or less in blade extension. Also did a few strokes across some 220 grit paper to sharpen it just a little, though I know it will need some more work and I'll need a few accessories to do it with as well. The machining of this is very rough. Notches in the blade to attach the adjustments to are not consistently machined, even being crooked and off center to each other. The body has a chunk missing from its shape near where your hand grips it, and they left this rough and irregular and just painted right over it. It's definitely a $15 plane, but I'll try to learn from it and move up in quality as I go, and this one may end up on my truck as a work site tool while other better ones eventually end up on my workshop bench to stay.

So far, I have found it to be quite addicting sliding it across wood when it shaves without catching. I have smoothed a surface, eased an edge, and even chamfered an edge pretty evenly while playing, and I am loving it. I cannot believe I never did this before.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

catches are from too big a bite, too much down pressure, irregular grain, dullish iron or the bevel is set skewed to the sole..
I would lean twoards that being a LA plane..

did you sharpen it???
have you waxed the sole??
have you tried it on any plywood end grain...


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Duane Bledsoe said:


> So far, I have found it to be quite addicting sliding it across wood when it shaves without catching. I have smoothed a surface, eased an edge, and even chamfered an edge pretty evenly while playing, and I am loving it. I cannot believe I never did this before.


UT-oh...
look out now...
those Woodrivers and Veritas looking better to you now???


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## Duane Bledsoe (Jan 6, 2013)

FINALLY!! REAL PROGRESS!! TODAY BEGAN THE ASSEMBLY!!

First, a special thank you to my wife for the photos! Also, special thank you to all those who offered advise as I did this project. Most especially to Stick! 

Today, I laid out the six 2x4 boards across the frame, checked for in plane alignment, then lifted the top sheet of plywood and placed it face down on the boards. I used a drywall square to find a square corner on the plywood and got lucky and found one so I used this to square from as I assembled. Then I dry assembled my grid on top of it and checked for in plane again with a 4 foot level. Also checked corner to corner with a tape line in an X pattern to double check squareness. After this I pencil marked the grid location on the plywood just for reference. So far, so good! So I took the grid back down again and began the final assembly using adhesive. This time it's for real! 

Well, the only way I could see to begin was to glue and screw one long rib to the edge with the PL adhesive and pocket screws. With that in place, I installed one of the cross ribs along the end from the square corner to form an L. Then I began applying adhesive to one long rib at a time and placed it where it belonged according to the pencil marks, with the end lap joint inside the cross rib on the end. With each long rib put down I would dry fit the cross ribs to hold it in place, then ran in the the pocket screws until just snug, not torqued tight. Then I'd remove the cross ribs and repeat the process again until all the long ribs were in. My wife assisted with this process all the way. We were moving fast. With the last long rib down I knew the grid would all fit because at this point it was all assembled, just the cross ribs weren't set yet.

Then I simply applied adhesive to each cross rib top edge and also through the halp lap U joints. I put adhesive on both ribs in the U joints where they crossed, pressed the ribs in together and watched the PL adhesive squirt out in the corners. Periodically as I went I would check my progress with the level. I snugged all the pocket hole screws down just enough to bring the ribs to the plywood and feel for the screw to stop and then I let off. I did not torque any of them. 

Once this was all done I went back and installed blocking across the half lap joints where the long ribs were lengthened originally. I had planned to do this on both sides but as I assembled this I saw that Stick was right, one block per joint was truly enough. So I put them in, shot a few brads to hold it, and then clamped it to dry. 

Once I was finished, I checked with a level again and was pleased. I am sure I am within 1/32" of plane from end to end, side to side, and corner to corner. It is as close as I'll ever need. I think I'm done for today. Once it fully cures I'll install the bottom sheet, then proceed to the next step. I can tell this is going to be seriously strong, and at this point I cannot see ever needing another one. This one should last me forever.


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## vindaloo (May 30, 2009)

Glad it went well for you Duane. Looking good.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

squared away and then some...
excellent work Duane..
now add your blocking for possible vises and bench dogs...
use up all of your drops/left overs for the blocking... 
safe the big stuff for another day...


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Wow I'm super impressed with your work . Great outcome Duane !


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## woodknots (Mar 7, 2012)

Stick486 said:


> catches are from too big a bite, too much down pressure, irregular grain, dullish iron or the bevel is set skewed to the sole..
> I would lean twoards that being a LA plane..
> 
> did you sharpen it???
> ...


That plane appears to have an adjustable mouth as well - maybe it's not close enough.
I would also check the back of the iron - might need to be flattened Check the back - if you can see grinder marks and no reflection, flatten it. You won't get a sharp edge if the back isn't flat.

As stick said, check grain, make sure you aren't planing against it


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

vchiarelli said:


> That plane appears to have an adjustable mouth as well - maybe it's not close enough.
> I would also check the back of the iron - might need to be flattened Check the back - if you can see grinder marks and no reflection, flatten it. You won't get a sharp edge if the back isn't flat.
> 
> As stick said, check grain, make sure you aren't planing against it


http://www.routerforums.com/tools-woodworking/72386-sharpen-chisels-plane-irons-easily-cheaply.html


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## woodknots (Mar 7, 2012)

Read it - are you referring to my "reflection" or to your "sharpie"?


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

or for Duane's information in case he missed it...
@Duane Bledsoe...

when you use glue think glue...
when you use adhesive like PL you need to think in adhesive...
tiny learning curve...


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## woodknots (Mar 7, 2012)

Got it - thought I might have misspoken
Yes that was a good article and a good thread


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## Duane Bledsoe (Jan 6, 2013)

Guys, I have a bit of a problem. 

As the adhesive has set, on one edge, right where I began the assembly, I have a hump that has formed in what is to be the top. It is right smack where I put the first screw in that long rib that runs down that side. I must have not gotten it fully seated, and I didn't check it until it was too late and the adhesive has aready set. This is in the middle of the length of the table on one edge, and continues inward for at least 9" before flattening out again. The adhesive has expanded and swelled it out to form a hump.

Right now the assembly is still upside down across the 2x4's. I was looking at it earlier and set a 4' level on it to see how flat it was and I noticed it rocked at one point. I had the level touching the plywood surface side, not across the ribs. If I set the level on the hump near one end of it and hold it flat, the other end of the level comes away from the surface as much as 1/16" or more. The farther the level extends from the hump, the farther away from the surface it gets. It appears this hump travels inward as far in from the edge as 9", to the next long rib, and then goes back to being very flat after that point. I know this because I lifted the table top up and held it with one hand while checking with a level in the other hand. Based on holding the level balanced across the hump, it looks as though the rise is 1/16", or close to it, and only across a few inches in length. This is devastating to me. If I tried to build a cabinet on this I feel that it could throw off my squareness since anything near that edge would be elevated over that hump. 

Is there any fix for this? Can I just sand it down or plane it out once I flip it over? It is a plywood top with a thin veneer. I know the veneer will be removed completely and I'll be into the layer below it.

I have to admit I panicked when I realized this, and I attempted a fix earlier while I thought the adhesive was still soft, which it was only semi-soft by that time. I slid a box cutter knife in between the plywood surface and the rib to break the bond there. Then I screwed the pocket hole screw down tighter at that point. I measured the depth from the underside of the top sheet of plywood to the other side of the rib and compared this to other points. It is a full millimeter off. I clamped it solid at that point with three clamps. It did help a tiny bit but not much. I resigned myself to thinking it cannot be fixed any better and at that point I added more adhesive along the inside to reestablish the bond again, and turned off the shop lights and left.....very worried.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

the cement isn't cured yet,,,
pull the screws 
take a hacksaw blade or similar and shove it between the ply and the rib..
cut the adhesive...
sandwich the ply and rib between two 2 bys...
use pipe clamps to squeeze everything where it needs to be....
the 2 bys disperse the clamping force and make it more uniform...
when you got to where you need to be replace the screws....
tomorrow scab a plate to the ribs where you cut the adhesive...
pocket and adhesive them into place...
where you cut will be a very weak joint and the plate makes up for it...


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## Duane Bledsoe (Jan 6, 2013)

I just discovered another problem that is compounding this and I believe it is unfixable at this point. The plywood is not 3/4" thick on one end. It is closer to 11/16 than it is 3/4. 

So besides having a slight rise at the point in the center, the plywood thins as it nears the end. I knew that the farther away from the point of the rise, the worse the gap would appear between the surface and the reference straight edge. But I could swear it looked worse than I thought it should for such a slight rise. 

On the one hand I'm disappointed about this. On the other, I'm relieved that it was less my fault than I first thought. At the very least this means my work is not as bad as I had believed and that means something to me. I have no idea what might be done to fix it. I may have to just live with it. There's no mistake either, I measured the thickness of the ply with a steel ruler and can clearly see it is about 3/64 (or close to it) off from being 3/4 thick. It's just a tiny bit thicker than 11/16 on one end, and a full 3/4 thick from the center point to the other end.

A hard lesson learned, but in the future I will check closer on the thickness of my plywood. If I'd done this before cutting it, I may have found the cut end to be more true and could have cut the other end instead.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

That's unfortunate that the plywood has a discrepancy in its thickness , I never would have expected that . I have to go back in your posts but from what I remember you didn't use Baltic birch did you? 

I'm thinking the best way to get perfection at this point is to add a new layer of BB on the top.
Could you live with the work station being another 3/4" taller ?


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## Duane Bledsoe (Jan 6, 2013)

Duane Bledsoe said:


> Guys, I have a bit of a problem.
> 
> As the adhesive has set, on one edge, right where I began the assembly, I have a hump that has formed in what is to be the top. It is right smack where I put the first screw in that long rib that runs down that side. I must have not gotten it fully seated, and I didn't check it until it was too late and the adhesive has aready set. This is in the middle of the length of the table on one edge, and continues inward for at least 9" before flattening out again. The adhesive has expanded and swelled it out to form a hump.
> 
> ...





RainMan1 said:


> That's unfortunate that the plywood has a discrepancy in its thickness , I never would have expected that . I have to go back in your posts but from what I remember you didn't use Baltic birch did you?
> 
> I'm thinking the best way to get perfection at this point is to add a new layer of BB on the top.
> Could you live with the work station being another 3/4" taller ?


Not really. It was just barely going to come out the right height to serve as an outfeed table for my tablesaw, which I need. I knew plywood could be inconsistant in thickness but this plywood looks so much better made I didn't consider it. It isn't baltic birch, it is purebond birch from Home Depot.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

I've had nothing but issues using plywood from HD . I'm not sure if there was a thickness issue but I sure had a tough go of it with my shelves . 
So your stand can't be modified to drop the height , or kibosh that stand and make a wood frame stand for it underneath.
I'm sorry to hear your pain as you've done one hell of a job so far , and a lot of man hours .


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

RainMan1 said:


> That's unfortunate that the plywood has a discrepancy in its thickness , I never would have expected that . I have to go back in your posts but from what I remember you didn't use Baltic birch did you?
> 
> I'm thinking the best way to get perfection at this point is to add a new layer of BB on the top.
> Could you live with the work station being another 3/4" taller ?


no Rick it isn't...


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

hopefully you fixed the bulge as prescribed by now...
the thickness issue we can fix too..

is a whole end thinner or is it just a corner ???...


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

vchiarelli said:


> I might have misspoken


you a politician now???


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## woodknots (Mar 7, 2012)

Stick486 said:


> you a politician now???


Didn't say I lied >


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## Duane Bledsoe (Jan 6, 2013)

I fixed the hump as well as I could. I removed the screw, and used a clamp that I am glad I owned (was given to me, never used before) that works like a C clamp but has jaws that contact about 5 inches of surface when applied. With this I was easily able to draw the plywood together closer to the ribs. Now measuring from the bottom side of the ply up to the opposite edge of the rib, I am within 1/2 a millimeter of what it measures elsewhere doing the same. Now I just have the plywood thickness issue. Man I wish I'd seen this coming yesterday before I started. 

Today is church. Can't cut that, even though the adhesive is curing as we speak. Anything I do will have to be this evening.

Rainman, I can't modify the stand easily, it is thick steel. No way I'm tossing it either. Paid too much for it. I might not be able to use it as an outfeed table but it will still work as a bench and I'm too far along to start thinking design change. I will figure it out somehow.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

This may seem a bit off the wall...not exactly 'woodworking'...but if you put a thin frame all the way around the box, _dead level_, and standing proud of the surface at the high end by a 1/6"- you could pour/place a self levelling liquid resin coating on the top surface. Obviously this would be intended to make up the difference at the low end. Clear or white would work.
Self-Levelling Epoxy Flooring Vs Concrete Levellers | The Floor Company
ArmorSeal® Floor Coatings - Sherwin-Williams

(They talk about concrete being coated but that's because most industrial applications are over it, but wood's fine too.)


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Niiiice....


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Duane Bledsoe said:


> I fixed the hump as well as I could. I removed the screw, and used a clamp that I am glad I owned (was given to me, never used before) that works like a C clamp but has jaws that contact about 5 inches of surface when applied. With this I was easily able to draw the plywood together closer to the ribs. Now measuring from the bottom side of the ply up to the opposite edge of the rib, I am within 1/2 a millimeter of what it measures elsewhere doing the same. Now I just have the plywood thickness issue. Man I wish I'd seen this coming yesterday before I started.
> 
> Today is church. Can't cut that, even though the adhesive is curing as we speak. Anything I do will have to be this evening.
> 
> Rainman, I can't modify the stand easily, it is thick steel. No way I'm tossing it either. Paid too much for it. I might not be able to use it as an outfeed table but it will still work as a bench and I'm too far along to start thinking design change. I will figure it out somehow.


Well it sounds like you have it so close now that the tolerances should be expectable no? 
It would drive me insane but that's just me , for any normal person it would be just fine I'm sure


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

DaninVan said:


> This may seem a bit off the wall...not exactly 'woodworking'...but if you put a thin frame all the way around the box, _dead level_, and standing proud of the surface at the high end by a 1/6"- you could pour/place a self levelling liquid resin coating on the top surface. Obviously this would be intended to make up the difference at the low end. Clear or white would work.
> Self-Levelling Epoxy Flooring Vs Concrete Levellers | The Floor Company
> ArmorSeal® Floor Coatings - Sherwin-Williams
> 
> (They talk about concrete being coated but that's because most industrial applications are over it, but wood's fine too.)


rock can do that for him...


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

*Rock Who?*



Stick486 said:


> rock can do that for him...


That blew right by me, Stick. What were you referring to?


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Oops...my bad!
" surface at the high end by a *1/6"-* " should have been "...*1/16"-* ..."


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Stick486 said:


> rock can do that for him...


meant to say rock hard can do that for him...


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Are you saying you like the hanger floor, Stick?


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

hanger floor???


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Yes. The gleaming white, self-leveling, epoxy floor coating.
http://www.routerforums.com/tools-w...box-bench-top-build-thread-11.html#post759586

I thought that's what you were "rock hard" over(?)...


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## Duane Bledsoe (Jan 6, 2013)

Wanted to touch base and say I am still around. I've had to do some heavy overtime at work recently so I haven't been on in a while. Also haven't progressed beyond where I was on the bench top yet either. I wil try to get back to work on it soon.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Duane Bledsoe said:


> Wanted to touch base and say I am still around. I've had to do some heavy overtime at work recently so I haven't been on in a while. Also haven't progressed beyond where I was on the bench top yet either. I wil try to get back to work on it soon.


thanks for the heads up....


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

DaninVan said:


> This may seem a bit off the wall...not exactly 'woodworking'...but if you put a thin frame all the way around the box, _dead level_, and standing proud of the surface at the high end by a 1/6"- you could pour/place a self levelling liquid resin coating on the top surface. Obviously this would be intended to make up the difference at the low end. Clear or white would work.
> Self-Levelling Epoxy Flooring Vs Concrete Levellers | The Floor Company
> ArmorSeal® Floor Coatings - Sherwin-Williams
> 
> (They talk about concrete being coated but that's because most industrial applications are over it, but wood's fine too.)


10-12 years ago, I helped a outfit pour 200 or so square feet of a similar product just outside of a freight elevator. High traffic area, all kinds of equipment (dolly's, carts etc.) were dragged over it 16 hours a day, 7 days a week. After 12 years, the stuff has held up incredibly well. just dirty...the product was self leveling, went down and dried up dead flat. I want to say the name of the product was "General sumptin or nother"...


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Duane Bledsoe said:


> Wanted to touch base and say I am still around. I've had to do some heavy overtime at work recently so I haven't been on in a while. Also haven't progressed beyond where I was on the bench top yet either. I wil try to get back to work on it soon.


Well your excuse is better than mine . I took a weeks holidays in hopes of getting something done only to go on a runaway and lay on the couch with a hangover for a week straight


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Re the poured self levelling finishes;
Look at the beating table and bar tops done with casting resin take! 
Epoxy Since 1980


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## Duane Bledsoe (Jan 6, 2013)

Ok, I found about an hour to put in on this project today.

To start with, I've had to do overtime in the last couple of weeks at work so my shop time was just about cut out completely. However, even when I could have did just a little as I did tonight, my heart just wasn't in it. After all that work, I found that even though I had my ribs dead level, the currently face down top still had an inherent hump in it anyway from having uneven thickness plywood. I just couldn't even think about it anymore for awhile. I just walked away. 

But I knew I had to finish this anyway because I need a work bench, and I want to keep the costs from mounting up. I'm already into this thing deep as it is. My wife suggested to just use the top as the bottom and continue with it and see how it turns out. So I decided to do that. Tonight I laid the other sheet of 3/4 plywood on top of the grid and mapped out a grid on it in pencil to show where the ribs are below. This will be my guide for running screws in to hold this sheet on after I apply the adhesive. 

I also made a jig (my first ever using baltic birch, yay!) to allow me to use the drill bit from my Kreg pocket hole jig to predrill vertical holes for the pocket screws I plan to use to join this plywood to the ribs. It will drill a flat bottomed, stepped hole to recess the screw heads. I used the depth collar to prevent boring all the way through the plywood, and set it to just barely penetrate the ribs below, leaving a clean bored hole on both sides of the top ply sheet. 

Also, I removed the 2x4 support that had been temporarily holding the bench top up and keeping it in plane, letting it down to the metal frame. Then I used them like cauls to clamp the top sheet down flat to the grid to see what would happen to the slight bow the plywood has. It pulled completely flat, as expected, but what was unexpected is this whole thing is sitting flat to the metal frame below, contacting everywhere, and seems to be totally unaffected by what I just know is an awful hump. It's like it just vanished! I laid a 4' level across the cauls, and down in between them across the table top also, and I tested it at multiple points, sliding the level all around. It contacted the surface smoothly with no teetering on humps, no dips more than 2 sheets of paper thick, and I'm just as tickled pink with that as anybody ever could be! I only hope the final result is this flat once it gets "glued and screwed". Wow! All that worrying for seemingly nothing. Where did the hump go? Is it absorbed by being spread out across the whole surface as the weight of this bench top presses down on the frame? This thing is insanely heavy now, even with just the ribs and one sheet of plywood so far. Already would take two men to lift, and yet there's still the second sheet to put on, plus all that hard maple around the band, and then the hardboard topper. All I know is it seems to be about as flat as anything could be and so long as it stays this way then I am 100% sure I will get the good square results I'm after in future projects by referencing this table surface as I assemble things.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

really like your drill guide..
nice save too...


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## Duane Bledsoe (Jan 6, 2013)

Thanks. I just hope it holds up for all the holes I have to make. I have some room to redrill another one or two if need be to finish. I kind of thought this would last for other projects too, but in testing it, I can see I may wallow the hole out after some use. This would produce non-vertical holes in that case, which I don't want. 

Any idea what happened to the hump I clearly saw before? I held a level to the underneath side where it overhung the metal frame and it was clearly off by a significant amount. Seems to be totally gone now that it is resting on the frame itself without the 2x4 spacing between frame and bench top. I remember you saying as I assembled it, any small inconsistencies would seem to show less and less. Is this an example of that? To me, the hump seemed large, holding the level away from the surface over 1/16" at the end when teetering on the hump peak in the middle of the level's length. Boy, I was really depressed when I saw that, and tonight I was equally impressed when I saw it was gone.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

yes on the hump...

I trust you did your blocking...
set the screw holes no deeper than you have to...
you will using adhesive to mount the second sheet won't you ???...
if so ease up on the screw count... three in the field and one at the rim set in about 2 inches from the edge on every other rib is all you need..
*NOTE: *more meat under the head of the screw = more strength...
that drill guide of yours will see you through this and then some...
please do a pilot hole in the webs so that the screws don't split the webs...
test the pilot hole size on a piece of scrap.. hole + screw = no split and you got to where you need to be... 
fill the screw holes w/ 29¢ caulk from wally world...
the cheaper the better...

you know, Rock Hard putty will fix that thickness issue for very little money...


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## Duane Bledsoe (Jan 6, 2013)

Yes, I will be using adhesive to attach the second sheet. I will back off on the screws some then. I just don't want to risk the plywood not pulling down flat all around, especially since it has a little bow in it now. Once I start with the adhesive, then it is too late to drill more holes, so if I see any place where it doesn't pull down then I will be in trouble. Of course I can use the cauls to clamp it down and hold it until it dries anyway. 

If I have any of the PL adhesive left, why not fill the holes wirt it? This stuff dries pretty hard.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

flatten the ply w/ your caul arrangement you have pictured...
be sure to add extra clamps on the rim...
the screws are to *HOLD* the plywood...
once the ply is down drill all the pilot holes you want - *one at a time..*
one hole, one screw... one hole, one screw... one hole, one screw... one hole, one screw... and so on...

no on the PL as a filler...
if you ever need to take out a screw the PL will put up a helluva an argument and just may tear chunks out of the ply when you back out the screws...

the cheap caulk won't hold really well... 
you'll find if you need to remove a screw just push the bit through the caulk to the screw and back out the screw...
the screw will take the caulk plug w/ it...
besides.. you need it to fill the rim seam between your maple and the plywood before you install the hardboard.....
any humps will shave/plane off very very easily...


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Duane Bledsoe said:


> Thanks. I just hope it holds up for all the holes I have to make. I have some room to redrill another one or two if need be to finish. I kind of thought this would last for other projects too, but in testing it, I can see I may wallow the hole out after some use. This would produce non-vertical holes in that case, which I don't want.
> 
> Any idea what happened to the hump I clearly saw before? I held a level to the underneath side where it overhung the metal frame and it was clearly off by a significant amount. Seems to be totally gone now that it is resting on the frame itself without the 2x4 spacing between frame and bench top. I remember you saying as I assembled it, any small inconsistencies would seem to show less and less. Is this an example of that? To me, the hump seemed large, holding the level away from the surface over 1/16" at the end when teetering on the hump peak in the middle of the level's length. Boy, I was really depressed when I saw that, and tonight I was equally impressed when I saw it was gone.


Glad to hear your on your way to a good outcome after all this hard work


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

@Duane Bledsoe...

before you install this sheet let's see if anything needs fine tuning...
do some look/see before you jump...


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## Duane Bledsoe (Jan 6, 2013)

I logged some more shop time tonight. First thing I did was rip two edges of the remaining plywood sheet to overhang the torsion frame about 1/8". Later when it is secured in place, I will route these edges flush with the frame. 

Next, I predrilled all the stepped holes using the guide I made. After about 2/3 of the holes were drilled I could tell the bit was fitting the guide a little more loosely than it had started out, but not enough to throw off the vertical drilled holes I was shooting for. After this, I used a chisel and cleaned up all the hole edges so none had any raised edges. They're all smooth and flat, though many of them had minor tearout around them. I don't think this will matter, this surface will either be the bottom, or it will be the top and have a hardboard cover. Once all the stepped holes were finished I flipped the sheet and cleaned up the holes on the other side the same way since the bit had gone all the way through. I ended up with all the stepped holes having about 1/4" deep recession for the screw heads, still leaving a good 1/2" of plywood thickness for the screwhead to hold onto inside the hole. 

Then I lined up the sheet on top of the grid, clamped it down with cauls all the way across it in several places, and used a 7/64 bit to predrill all the holes in the grid so none of the screws cause the grid ribs to swell or split when inserted. 

I'm good to go to get this bottom sheet installed now. I checked and rechecked the flatness of everything so far. I have no high spots on the grid at all, and no dips either. Right now, the plywood sheet has not yet been installed permanently, it is only clamped down to hold the plywood flat. I noticed after having it clamped down for about 2 weeks now that when I released the clamps it has flattened out some. It still has a slight curve in it but not as much as before. After I finished my drilling, with it clamped down I laid a 4' level across as many cauls as I could reach on an angle to cover as much surface as possible. The level contacts all cauls, does not rock or wobble, and it impresses me that this table top is as near flat as I could ever hope to achieve. I called it a night. Time for a shower now.

I also put up a pic of the unfinished table top on its frame to better show just what it is that I'm building. It will be quite large when finished. A full 4' across, and close to 6' long. A bench this size, built this heavily and sturdy, ought to last me the rest of my life, I think.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

You definitely have this under control...


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## Duane Bledsoe (Jan 6, 2013)

I just finished installing the last sheet of plywood. I applied the PL adhesive to the edges of the grid ribs as I had done during the first part of the assembly, and then laid the plywood over the frame with it elevated at each corner using a temporary support stick laying diagonally across the corners. Once I had it positioned, I lifted it up, removed the sticks and applied a bit of PL adhesive where they had been laying. Then I let the plywood down and put a couple of screws in their holes to make sure I had it lined up. Satisfied with that, I put the cauls back across it again and clamped them down, and then begin putting screws in, working from the center outwards towards the edges. Once they were all in, I went back and used a hand tool screw driver to set each one by hand so I get a better feel for their snugness. Afterwards, I took all the cauls off and used a 4' level to check for bows, dips, curves, or any high spots, and found NONE. I slid that level all over the place and took pictures of it everywhere, some that I didn't even post. Then I put the cauls back on again and clamped them down, and there it will stay until tomorrow evening.

Now we wait. 

I am well pleased with the outcome of this. If I did nothing more, I know I have a solid bench on which to build things. It is primarily an assembly table, but still is very strong feeling, and I am quite sure it will stand up to any whacking I need to do with a hammer and chisel on any projects. After tomorrow, I will be in the final stages. Things get simple from here. I plan to use those cauls as cross joists in the metal frame beneath the torsion box top. Does it need them? :no: Absolutely not. This thing is insanely stout. But will it be double insurance against any sagging, if ever? Yes it will. Besides, I love to overbuild things. This bench will be so overbuilt that I know it will last me the rest of my life. Easily!


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Duane Bledsoe said:


> I just finished installing the last sheet of plywood. I applied the PL adhesive to the edges of the grid ribs as I had done during the first part of the assembly, and then laid the plywood over the frame with it elevated at each corner using a temporary support stick laying diagonally across the corners. Once I had it positioned, I lifted it up, removed the sticks and applied a bit of PL adhesive where they had been laying. Then I let the plywood down and put a couple of screws in their holes to make sure I had it lined up. Satisfied with that, I put the cauls back across it again and clamped them down, and then begin putting screws in, working from the center outwards towards the edges. Once they were all in, I went back and used a hand tool screw driver to set each one by hand so I get a better feel for their snugness. Afterwards, I took all the cauls off and used a 4' level to check for bows, dips, curves, or any high spots, and found NONE. I slid that level all over the place and took pictures of it everywhere, some that I didn't even post. Then I put the cauls back on again and clamped them down, and there it will stay until tomorrow evening.
> 
> Now we wait.
> 
> I am well pleased with the outcome of this. If I did nothing more, I know I have a solid bench on which to build things. It is primarily an assembly table, but still is very strong feeling, and I am quite sure it will stand up to any whacking I need to do with a hammer and chisel on any projects. After tomorrow, I will be in the final stages. Things get simple from here. I plan to use those cauls as cross joists in the metal frame beneath the torsion box top. Does it need them? :no: Absolutely not. This thing is insanely stout. But will it be double insurance against any sagging, if ever? Yes it will. Besides, I love to overbuild things. This bench will be so overbuilt that I know it will last me the rest of my life. Easily!


I'm impressed... 
nice job...

I have some questions....
did you PL all of the grid to the ply???
are you aware that it's the blue frame that is the weak link here not the top???...
did you install blocking???

suggestion...
two joist for mounting down the center core of the top...
install/sister an apron over the current apron to adsorb flex and dampen vibrations...
sister at least one 2 by on the outside of each leg from the underside of the added apron and extend to the floor...
this will lend to to some serious strength and impact transfer to the floor...

and...
please do not run your trim bit trough the heavy squeeze out...
shave the bulk of it off before you flush trim...

KUDOS to you Duane...


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

Overbuilt? maybe, possibly, naaaaaaaaaaaaaaa could be...

Well Built: 

ABSOLUTELY!!!

well done Duane, very well done... and an excellent thread on top of that..


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

TwoSkies57 said:


> Overbuilt? maybe, possibly, naaaaaaaaaaaaaaa could be...
> 
> Well Built:
> 
> ...


agreed


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## vindaloo (May 30, 2009)

*I like 'overbuilt'*

Well done Duane, been watching this build with interest, not that I have the room for one 

I like 'overbuilt, if there is such a thing. To me that means built for the future. :yes4:


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## Duane Bledsoe (Jan 6, 2013)

With work what it has been lately, I have not had any shop time. This week, I have managed to get TWO evenings! 

Tonight I unclamped everything, and got both sides of the torsion box plywood flush cut all around. Then I flipped it over (with help, because this thing is NOT light) so that the original intended side for the top was up. That is a definite no go. It has a hump in it, as discovered earlier. Not really a hump, but one corner of the plywood thins out as it comes to the corner, causing a 4' level to teeter when laid across it. So, I flipped it back over so that the bottom becomes the top. This way it seems to be just dead flat for some reason. I know to watch for this as I secure the top to the frame though, so if I see any slight separations between the frame and table top, I will add a shim to hold the space. 

The cauls are no longer needed so I took three of them and cut them to fit in the frame to act as joists below the top. I notched them to sit in the C beam of the frame and be flush with the top most edge. I also drilled pocket holes in them to fasten to the underside of the torsion box, but afterwards I started thinking this might make the box draw down to the boards too tight and cause a dip that I don't have now. I don't trust 2x4 boards not to twist, warp, bow, or sag in time. Despite these being clamped tight most of the time since I cut them, at least one has now developed a super slight curve. Drawing these together with a screw will only put to the test which is stronger, the torsion box or board. Maybe the shim trick would work here also? Or am I worrying too much? 

Well, as you can see, I have rounded third base and am headed for home on this project. All that's left is to attach the hard maple band boards and then install the hardboard top. I have it laying on top of it loosely now, just to see how it is going to look, and I am liking it a lot. I managed to get my measured final width within 1/8" of a full 4'. Sadly, I did not get my measured height under the height of my table saw, as I had hoped. The metal frame and torsion box together are about 3/8" higher, even with the feet adjusted to the lowest setting possible. The solution is simple though. I'll just keep a piece of 3/4" plywood cut and laying on the floor below the table, and just pull it out and then set up my table saw on top of it when I need to run long boards through it and use the torsion table as a runout table. Problem solved. If I had only used a sheet of 1/4" for the bottom, this would have came in just barely low enough to work, but considering the first sheet of 3/4 plywood was defective, that would have proven a bad thing. I'm happy with it the way it is.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

man are you ever on a roll....

KUDOS...


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## Duane Bledsoe (Jan 6, 2013)

Stick486 said:


> I'm impressed...
> nice job...
> 
> I have some questions....
> ...


Sorry, Stick, I didn't see this post until now. 

Yes, I applied the PL adhesive to the entire grid. 
No, I wasn't aware that the metal frame is the weak link. I bought it to try to make building this easier. It has leveling feet, and I could simply bolt it together to achieve a squared frame. I'd have built something from wood if I'd had a flat surface to work and reference from but since I didn't I just did this instead. At least now I will have a flat surface for future projects.
I didn't add anymore blocking other than the blocks to bridge the joints in the ribs. I thought about adding some in for future added on accessories like a vise, but I ultimately decided I didn't want anything sticking out or in the way as I work around the table. I just decided to put it together the way it was.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Duane Bledsoe said:


> Sorry, Stick, I didn't see this post until now.
> 
> No, I wasn't aware that the metal frame is the weak link.
> 
> I didn't add anymore blocking other than the blocks to bridge the joints in the ribs.


the frame isn't truly weak but could be considerably improved like I suggested...
good call on not fastening the joist to the top...
and since I just now thought of it ... get some locktite red on those table bolts 

the blocking was to go on the inside of the top.. not to the outside...

and please fill the screw holes so you bon't get pockets to form in the hardboard or lend to cracking...


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

Good job Duane, you learned a lot on this project, it will serve you good for years to come. A lot of good projects will come off this bench. You might consider putting some shims under the corners of your saw to raise it the small amount to clear the table. That will eliminate jacking it up to clear your table when the time comes.
Herb


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## Duane Bledsoe (Jan 6, 2013)

Well, I finally finished the top tonight. All that was really left to do was rip the maple edge band to width and joint the edges for a smooth finish, and attach the replaceable hardboard topper. 

In attaching the edge banding, I predrilled all the holes and countersink drilled them as well so the screw heads sit flush. I drilled them in sets of two, so the ends got 8 screws each and the long sides got 10. I used 2" deck screws to attach them with. Also used the original cauls that I had used in building the torsion box, stretched across the table and clamped down to make sure I got the boards flush with the top, then screwed them on. 

To attach the hardboard top, all I did was position it so all sides had a bit of overhang to flush cut later, then measured and marked a screw position in each corner so that when the hardboard was finally cut the screws would end up an even 3" inset from each side in the corners. I predrilled and countersunk these as well and inserted a #10 brass wood screw in a 1" length, 4 screws total with one in each corner. Just enough to hold it down and have a clean, smooth surface. If I should happen to drop a chisel on one of these screws, being brass, it will be a bit easier on the blades. 

When finished, I chucked up a flush trim bit in my DeWalt DW611 and cut the hardboard even with the edge band all the way around. Not completely satisfied with that, I went back and chamfered the edge to ease the sharpness, and I also really like the way it turned out to look with the chamfered edge as well.

I am not totally finished with the bench project as a whole. Still need a sheet of OSB to make the bottom storage shelf for wood cutoffs. That is coming soon, maybe next weekend. 

I ended up with a work surface a full 4' across and almost 6' long, solid as a rock, and as flat as anything I could have hoped for. All sides overhang the frame by 2" to allow for clamping all around. This will do anything I can think of, from large furniture pieces to small, tinkering projects. Being close to the washer and dryer, it's gonna make a handy place to fold clothes also.  Pics below.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

@Duane Bledsoe....

you did yourself proud...

will you be ureathaning the top and waxing it ???...


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## Duane Bledsoe (Jan 6, 2013)

Maybe some wax. I need to get some and put a coat on my drill press and band saw table surfaces anyway. What kind is best? I noticed the drill press is beginning to show the red rust stains on the table. It never did this in my old basement shop but this new garage shop is more of an outdoor environment now. I will need to learn some new habits and procedures for tool care now, it seems. Winter is coming and I can only imagine how that will affect my shop and the tools. I have heat ready to go.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

furniture paste wax w/o silicone...
if it's touted for cars and boats you can bet it has silicone in it...
there's nothing stopping you from calling the manufacture from the store and asking if their wax has silicone in it...
I like the 1st two and Johnson's the best,,,
one can can should last you a decade or so...

Briwax...
Carnauba paste wax...
Minwax furniture paste wax..
Johnson furniture paste wax..
Black Bison..
Coach Wax...
Blue label...

*HINT:* apply the wax w/ a small elcheapo buffer...


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## Duane Bledsoe (Jan 6, 2013)

Thank you. I think I can get Johnson's paste wax at Walmart here locally.


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## waynecochran (Aug 2, 2011)

Duane, I've just finished reading the whole thread. I'm impressed with the care you took with this project(and the great help everyone provided,is this a great forum or what). Looking at your pics it seems like there is some height adjustment left at the feet of your frame. Can't tell for sure but, it might be worth checking to get it level with your T-saw. Again. great job!!

An aside, I think Sticks monicker should be Professor Emeritus!


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## Duane Bledsoe (Jan 6, 2013)

Some of the pics were taken before final adjustments. I have it dead level now, and as low as it can possibly go, and the saw still has to be elevated to use it. For now I have the saw parked on top of some plywood but I plan to try to shim the saw and stand so I can do away with the plywood.


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## Duane Bledsoe (Jan 6, 2013)

Ok, new question. Today I discovered that my hardboard top on my torsion box table is bowing up and away from the table surface along one edge. I only have this secured with a single brass wood screw in each corner, four in all. The edge that is bowing is about 6 feet away from a gas heater that I recently began leaving on at a low setting now that the weather has turned cold here. Could this be causing it? The torsion box itself seems fine, straight, and flat. Just the hardboard cover is doing this. I don't think adding screws will help as I tried seeing what it would do if I just pressed it down with one or two fingers. It easily went down but it just turned one long bow into two or three shorter ones. I'm guessing expansion of the material from heat has caused this.


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

Duane Bledsoe said:


> Ok, new question. Today I discovered that my hardboard top on my torsion box table is bowing up and away from the table surface along one edge. I only have this secured with a single brass wood screw in each corner, four in all. The edge that is bowing is about 6 feet away from a gas heater that I recently began leaving on at a low setting now that the weather has turned cold here. Could this be causing it? The torsion box itself seems fine, straight, and flat. Just the hardboard cover is doing this. I don't think adding screws will help as I tried seeing what it would do if I just pressed it down with one or two fingers. It easily went down but it just turned one long bow into two or three shorter ones. I'm guessing expansion of the material from heat has caused this.


Duane, is that the unvented heater? if it is , you are putting moisture into the shop. GAS+ COMBUSTION= WATER +CO2.
WHat I would do is take out all the screws and let it settle down. In the workbench I had before I didn't fasten the masonite down ,just let it lay in its bed.

Herb


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

listen to Herb and did you use double stick outdoor carpet tape...

note:
if the hardboard expanded it will never shrink back to original size/flatness..
what thickness is the hard board???


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

Stick486 said:


> listen to Herb and did you use double stick outdoor carpet tape...
> 
> note:
> if the hardboard expanded it will never shrink back to original size/flatness..
> what thickness is the hard board???


Duane the DB tape is a good idea, it will allow the masonite to grow and shrink a little depending on the humidity.
You also don't want the masonite tight in its recess, a 1/16" smaller on the sides and endo will give it room to move.

Herb


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## Duane Bledsoe (Jan 6, 2013)

I didn't use double sided tape, I didn't know I was supposed to. If it was mentioned in this thread I missed it. Sorry. The hardboard is not recessed, it goes edge to edge. It is 3/16" thick.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Duane Bledsoe said:


> I didn't use double sided tape, I didn't know I was supposed to. If it was mentioned in this thread I missed it. Sorry. The hardboard is not recessed, it goes edge to edge. It is 3/16" thick.


end of the post...

Router Forums - View Single Post - Duane's torsion box bench top build thread

you may have have to replace the hard board...
leave it flush to the edge...


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

Duane Bledsoe said:


> I didn't use double sided tape, I didn't know I was supposed to. If it was mentioned in this thread I missed it. Sorry. The hardboard is not recessed, it goes edge to edge. It is 3/16" thick.


In that case, Duane just use DB tape and no screws, The screws in the corners are what keeping it from expanding.

Herb


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## Duane Bledsoe (Jan 6, 2013)

I will try that when I replacertainly it. For now it seems to have laid back down nearly flat again. Don't know why. The heater is still running


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

It is obviously a heat/humidity issue Duane. Those are the only things that can make it move. I'm thinking it is because the surface is close to impermeable with the coating on it and the back side is open celled which doesn't allow bot sides to expand at the same rate.


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

Duane Bledsoe said:


> I will try that when I replacertainly it. For now it seems to have laid back down nearly flat again. Don't know why. The heater is still running


Take the screws out now and add the DB tape and that should take care of the problem.

Herb


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

then put the screws back in...


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