# SawStop Lawsuit.....



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

SawStop wins Supreme Court action in antitrust suit against Black & Decker | Woodworking Network


----------



## hawkeye10 (Jul 28, 2015)

Stick486 said:


> SawStop wins Supreme Court action in antitrust suit against Black & Decker | Woodworking Network


Stick I just don't know what to say. For it to go to the supreme court they both must have had good arguments.


----------



## patlaw (Jan 4, 2010)

Don't read too much into the decision. As I read it, the matter at hand is SawStop's antitrust suit against Black and Decker and other companies. The defendants previously had an unfavorable ruling from the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals Here's the holding:



> SD3, LLC and its subsidiary, SawStop, LLC (together, "SawStop"), contend that several major table-saw manufacturers conspired to boycott SawStop's safety technology and corrupt a private safety-standard-setting process, all with the aim of keeping that technology off the market. Consequently, SawStop sued nearly two dozen saw manufacturers and affiliated entities, alleging that they violated § 1 of the Sherman Antitrust Act, 15 U.S.C. § 1. The district court dismissed SawStop's amended complaint based on, among other things, its belief that SawStop had failed to plead facts establishing an unlawful agreement. See SD3, LLC v. Black & Decker (U.S.), Inc., No. 11:14-cv-191, 2014 WL 3500674 (E.D. Va. July 15, 2014). SawStop appealed.
> 
> We agree with the district court that several parts of SawStop's case cannot go forward. SawStop's complaint does not plausibly allege any conspiracy to manipulate safety standards, so we affirm the district court's decision to dismiss SawStop's claims concerning standard-setting. Likewise, the complaint fails to allege any facts at all against several corporate parents and affiliates, so we affirm the district court's decision to dismiss all claims against those defendants.
> 
> But as to the remaining defendants, SawStop has alleged enough to suggest a plausible agreement to engage in a group boycott. *Although that claim may not prove ultimately successful at trial, or even survive summary judgment, the complaint offers enough to survive the defendants' motion to dismiss.* "[A] well-pleaded complaint may proceed even if it strikes a savvy judge that actual proof of those facts is improbable, and that a recovery is very remote and unlikely." Thus, we vacate the district court's decision dismissing SawStop's group-boycott claim and remand for further proceedings. _Emphasis added._


Black and Decker petitioned the Supreme Court for certiorari (to hear the case.) The Supreme Court said, "no". This case is not to be confused with the patent cases that have been filed. I did about 5 minutes of research, so I am perfectly fine to stand corrected if I missed part of the case.


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

hawkeye10 said:


> Stick I just don't know what to say. For it to go to the supreme court they both must have had good arguments.


I read it a SS wants their technology mandated....
and to discourage everyone else from introducing any thing...


----------



## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Bosch has far deeper pockets than SawStop, and their technology is not destructive, which makes it superior, as well as having twin cartridges. Serves SawStop right for trying to "Micro$oft" us by forcing a standard that was exclusively theirs. Legal thuggery should not be rewarded. However good SawStop products may be, all technologies are soon outdated and if Bosch is smart, it will freely license its safety technology to every other saw maker, particularly those who produce shop style machines. It will make Bosch even more of a hero to woodworkers and tradesmen everywhere. Screw SawStop.

Strong letter to follow.


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

deep down SawStop has never been about us woodworkers. They have continuously sued other manufacturers because they wouldn't utilize their technology when thy came up w/ their own which is often better like Bosch's approach...

It's all about GREED...
and look is trying to form a monopoly...


----------



## schnewj (Nov 18, 2013)

patlaw said:


> Don't read too much into the decision. As I read it, the matter at hand is SawStop's antitrust suit against Black and Decker and other companies. The defendants previously had an unfavorable ruling from the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals Here's the holding:
> 
> 
> 
> Black and Decker petitioned the Supreme Court for certiorari (to hear the case.) The Supreme Court said, "no". This case is not to be confused with the patent cases that have been filed. I did about 5 minutes of research, so I am perfectly fine to stand corrected if I missed part of the case.


 @patlaw

So, Mike, the suit it just for anti trust collusion? If Saw Stop wins what is the ultimate outcome? Does SS just win their point, reap financial gain from lost sales, or force their system onto the market?

I understand that there are several different things on the docket; patent infringement, anti-trust, safety legislation, et. al. Since reporters rarely do any research anymore to verify facts and accurately report the issues, it is very difficult to understand the intricacies of where all of this is potentially going in respect to the consumer.

As a former safety professional I applaud SS development of the system. As a consumer I hate them for their marketing of a destructive and expensive system, as well as their attempt to monopolize the market. Forcing others to come to the "dark side" as Desert Rat Tom aptly put it, is "thuggery".

I really like the new Bosch system. It it non-destructive, more cost effective, and appears to be easier to use. 

Now, if they would only put it into a cabinet saw...


----------



## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

You can patent a method, but not an idea. And patents expire after 20 years, or somewhere around 2021 through 2023. SawStop sued Bosch in 2015, so the battle is on. SawStop owns about 100 patents, so they are mired in lawsuits. This suit seems to be about a claim that the other manufacturers conspired to say no to incorporation of SawStop features, which may be pretty tough to prove since SawStop tried to do this through intimidation and legislation, so it was in those firms' self interest to oppose what they saw as predatory behavior. See a shark? Stay away from it. None of this has anything to do with quality of SawStop products, which, like Apple's propriety technology, seems to be just fine. I'll place my bet on Bosch winning this one in the long run.


----------



## patlaw (Jan 4, 2010)

schnewj said:


> @patlaw
> 
> So, Mike, the suit it just for anti trust collusion? If Saw Stop wins what is the ultimate outcome? Does SS just win their point, reap financial gain from lost sales, or force their system onto the market?
> 
> ...


Bill, I have not read a lot about this case, but what I read seemed pretty clear that this case is only about an antitrust claim. If SS wins, they'll probably get money damages. They still have to win the patent infringement cases, which most people predict will take years.

If SS can establish that everyone "conspired" against them, that's a valid claim. The language from the court seems to suggest that they have an uphill battle, but at least they get their day in court.


----------



## Garyk (Dec 29, 2011)

Ass best I can remember one of the principals was an attorney. Not to paint all lawyers with a broad brush but that would explain the rash of law suits SS has brought. Great idea, bad company. Given that Bosch has their own cadre of attorneys I would think that there would be enough difference to their technology to refute any patent claims SS can make.


----------



## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Mike I'm only guessing here but if the case is over those other companies choosing not to use SS's technology I can see that as being a very long, steep uphill battle. It's not hard to see why another company would not want to adopt a technology that destroys your blade and cartridge and costs a couple of hundred to replace. If I was B & D I think I would be holding off until something better came along.


----------



## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

I think Charles has come to the point. "If I was B & D I think I would be holding off until something better came along." I can't imagine a stronger defense. Many years ago, I ran across a company that held a long standing, but meaningless patent for a device. The technology had long been antiquated, but the money kept flowing in, enriching the executives and attorneys, and irritating the firms being harassed that had moved on to a better technology.


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

AIUI, other manufacturers backed out of dealing with Gass because of the conditions imposed....
Manufacturers complained that costs for his safety equipment would have raised the prices of their saws so that they would not be marketable nor competitive...
Gass may win in the court and/but preventing newer and better safety equipment from entering the market should definitely not be included as part of his claim....
Also, I believe as he complains about monopolies he his trying to organize his own for his technology...

because of his tactics that I considered the purchase of the Saw Stop a no go.... 
the tool isn't in question...
just Gass's MO, greed and integrity...

Rule #1 come purchases...
consider the company and it's mind set and integrity 1st...


----------



## cocobolo1 (Dec 31, 2015)

Not long after Sawstop came out, there was a lawsuit when some clown managed to cut himself up a bit with a competitors saw. Not badly, just enough to get his attention. You probably read about it at the time in the woodworking press. The newbie woodworker admitted that he had no knowledge of how to use a table saw properly.

One thing that was brought up then was that the actual cost of this system was a paltry $70. Yet how much does SS charge for their saws?

So I'm definitely with Stick on this one, I'm under the impression that SS are just a bunch of greedy buggers trying to get cash from something other than selling saws.

Somebody with deep pockets should buy them out and squash the brand.

Now please don't ramble on and try and tell me what a fabulous machine the Sawstop is. If it was that good they wouldn't need to be going through all this legal nonsense. Adding a $70 gadget to a $1,000 saw shouldn't run the price up to $5,000!


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

cocobolo1 said:


> Somebody with deep pockets should buy them out and squash the brand.
> Adding a $70 gadget to a $1,000 saw shouldn't run the price up to $5,000!


Do you realize what the staggering over priced price of the company Gass would demand and Gass would never let loose of the tech because he'd want to keep his claws embedded into what he sees as a golden goose... (cut of all the sales)...

agree on the price of the saw statement...

cabinet saw w/ a 1.75HP motor...
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...


----------



## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Stick486 said:


> Also, I believe as he complains about monopolies he his trying to organize his own for his technology...
> 
> because of his tactics that I considered the purchase of the Saw Stop a no go....
> the tool isn't in question...
> just Gass's MO, greed and integrity...


That is the irony of the situation isn't it. He complains about other companies ganging up against him while he tries to block Bosch's technology, which appears to be quite superior to his own. The only thing he's really interested in is how much he can gouge us for. I'm with you Stick, I don't care how good his product is I wouldn't buy it from him.


----------



## cocobolo1 (Dec 31, 2015)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> That is the irony of the situation isn't it. He complains about other companies ganging up against him while he tries to block Bosch's technology, which appears to be quite superior to his own. The only thing he's really interested in is how much he can gouge us for. I'm with you Stick, I don't care how good his product is I wouldn't buy it from him.


Exactly! What's good for the goose....


----------



## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Stick486 said:


> ...cabinet saw w/ a 1.75HP motor...
> hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...


 @Stick486 I have a Laguna Fusion with the 1.75 hp motor. Don't have 220 available in the shop, so I'm very happy to have the max hp available. It works very well for what I do. 

I looked at the SawStop when I upgraded from my old saw, and realized it was just an overpriced contractor saw in my price range. After looking at everything out there, I choose the Laguna Fusion. As it happened there was a small warp on the left wing (no politics intended) and called for a replacement. I live about an hour away from Laguna's HQ, so they suggested I bring in the saw. I did, and when I arrived, they'd set up a brand new saw and then checked it for flat with some machined steel straight edges and feeler gauges. One tiny little low spot well within specs but otherwise perfect. They took back the old saw and gave me the new one! Now that is great customer service. Laguna and Bosch are both top of the mark for CS.

I think the fusion is the best saw for the buck out there, and you can get it in 220 if you want. There are cheaper, but I don't think in that price range that there is anything better. You can get the extra wide unit for just $100 more if you have the space. 

Thanks for the history on SawStop. I knew they were predatory, but didn't know the whole story. Again, decent gear, but way over priced. Look forward to seeing Bosch freely licensing their superior technology. They would be smart to do so. It would be particularly nice to see retrofits.


----------



## cocobolo1 (Dec 31, 2015)

Tom, wouldn't it be worth your while to run 220 power to your shop. I have always found that the 220 is more than worth the effort.

Just the fact that the motors use half the amps makes them run so much cooler. But you know that already.


----------



## kp91 (Sep 10, 2004)

Whirlwind Tool Patents Pending Saw Safety Technology

I like this approach over SawStop's. I think lawyers are going to be the death of our hobby, or at least price it beyond the reach of 90% of us. I hurt myself in the shop, but it wasn't with a table saw; will band saws, routers, nailers, and hammers need flesh sensing technology next? (I know my thumb would appreciate that!) 

The Osorio vs. Ryobi case should never have seen the inside of a court room. A man was given a tool he had no experience with, trained improperly by his employer, and operated it against the safety recommendations in the tool's manual. It was a terrible accident, but using that incident to 'force' everyone to use his invention, or sue to protect his patent from other similar devices sours my opinion of the company founders.

The real question is this: when someone does have a catastrophic incident with a SawStop saw, what will the court say then? 

We did buy a SawStop contractor saw at work, mainly because with the rotational nature of our crew we can't be sure of who will be aboard to supervise it's use. From a liability point of view it made sense. The extra $600 on the price tag was considered a one time "insurance premium."


----------



## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

For those who do not know, Gass is also a patent lawyer. There was a thread several years ago about the first lawsuit. The plaintiff was injured on the job, while drinking beer. His lawyer called Goss to testify that had the employer provided work-site table saws with Sawstop technology the injuries would have been prevented.
I have taken all this from that thread. Great thanks to Tommyt654 for the information.
Here is a link to the thread. 
http://www.routerforums.com/lobby/20620-another-stupids-day-court-3.html


----------



## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

cocobolo1 said:


> Tom, wouldn't it be worth your while to run 220 power to your shop. I have always found that the 220 is more than worth the effort.
> 
> Just the fact that the motors use half the amps makes them run so much cooler. But you know that already.


It is just a 50 foot run to the shop, and there is at least one 220, unused circuit available, but it will cost me a serious bundle to have it put in. I just haven't seen the need to do so yet. I semi-retired this last Friday and that means a reduced income, so I am joining the ranks of the financially cautious. 

If I had the opportunity to install something in the garage where the unused clothes dryer circuit is, I'd probably do it, but I don't want to put a table saw out there because it will track sawdust into the house. I have a neighbor who is an electrician, but he is retired and has no trencher. This argues for putting in oversized conduit for underground wiring so you can upgrade later. Would have to use an existing wire to pull the 220 through, as well as a replacement wire for the 110. With the DC, tool and AC/heater, this would really add a load to the existing house load. Edison would own me. LOL


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

DesertRatTom said:


> @Stick486 I have a Laguna Fusion with the 1.75 hp motor. Don't have 220 available in the shop, so I'm very happy to have the max hp available. It works very well for what I do.
> 
> I looked at the SawStop when I upgraded from my old saw, and realized it was just an overpriced contractor saw in my price range. After looking at everything out there, I choose the Laguna Fusion. As it happened there was a small warp on the left wing (no politics intended) and called for a replacement. I live about an hour away from Laguna's HQ, so they suggested I bring in the saw. I did, and when I arrived, they'd set up a brand new saw and then checked it for flat with some machined steel straight edges and feeler gauges. One tiny little low spot well within specs but otherwise perfect. They took back the old saw and gave me the new one! Now that is great customer service. Laguna and Bosch are both top of the mark for CS.
> 
> ...


now only if Bosch made an array of stationary tools ...
my Uni's are all from '40s if that is saying anything...
then there is the Felder TS....
I have the Italian made Laguna Band saws.. sweet...
got a bunch of Boise Crane too.. all from the 40's.. they even say US Navy in the castings...
WWII left overs???


----------



## patlaw (Jan 4, 2010)

cocobolo1 said:


> Just the fact that the motors use half the amps makes them run so much cooler. But you know that already.


I am having trouble following this logic. Power is Voltage times Current. 

240 volts x 10 amps = 2400 watts
120 volts x 20 amps = 2400 watts

Watts = Heat

Running a motor at 240 instead of 120 does reduce the "IR" losses-negligibly.


----------



## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

@Stick486 I went down to Laguna with a friend who picked up one of the italian made bandsaws, and they are beautiful. My friend is an engineer and he was amazed at how over engineered the bearings are in their bandsaws. So many old machines were built like tanks, but keeping them running is not my kettle of fish. If I bought one, I'd have to hire you and fly you out to work on it.


----------



## kp91 (Sep 10, 2004)

P = I^2 x R is the equation for power loss for conductors. The higher a current draw, the larger the line losses are, and therefore the resistive heating is reduced. That's why long distance power transmission is done in the kilo-volts range. 

In industry we always go for the largest voltage motors we can to keep the machinery as 'small' as possible. Less amps means less copper, which means lower cost, smaller motor per HP, and better heat dissipation. You won't see it on your power bill, but you will see it in the longer life of your motors. Dual voltage motors on compressors and other tools that are started and stopped frequently will definitely see a longer lifespan running on 220v, with the lower starting currents.


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

DesertRatTom said:


> @Stick486 I went down to Laguna with a friend who picked up one of the italian made bandsaws, and they are beautiful. My friend is an engineer and he was amazed at how over engineered the bearings are in their bandsaws. So many old machines were built like tanks, but keeping them running is not my kettle of fish. If I bought one, I'd have to hire you and fly you out to work on it.


I don't fly...
those old machines take off the shelf sheave, belts, motors and bearings...


----------



## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Stick486 said:


> I don't fly...
> those old machines take off the shelf sheave, belts, motors and bearings...


Naw. I just buy good modern stuff. By the time they wear enough for maintenance, I'll be long gone. LOL My dad kept everything working in a circa 1913 farmhouse through constant repair, and I just don't want to do that again.


----------



## Garyk (Dec 29, 2011)

Don't know the math or remember the formulas but I do know when I changed the wiring on a JET contractors saw to 220 it ran and cut whole lot better. My Delta uni is 220 with a Forrest blade and bogging down is a thing of the past.

Re: replacing wiring: There is some goop (sold by big box) that we used to call Owl S##t that makes working wire thru conduit a whole lot easier. It is slicker than most politicians.


----------



## furboo (Oct 12, 2015)

kp91 said:


> Whirlwind Tool Patents Pending Saw Safety Technology
> 
> I like this approach over SawStop's.


Me too, Doug. Thanks for pointing this out.


----------



## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Garyk said:


> Don't know the math or remember the formulas but I do know when I changed the wiring on a JET contractors saw to 220 it ran and cut whole lot better. My Delta uni is 220 with a Forrest blade and bogging down is a thing of the past.
> 
> Re: replacing wiring: There is some goop (sold by big box) that we used to call Owl S##t that makes working wire thru conduit a whole lot easier. It is slicker than most politicians.


Wire pulling compound. Lots of different brands, but for a quick short run, just use dish detergent...the stuff for hand washing dishes, not the stuff that goes in your DW.


----------



## Ray Newman (Mar 9, 2009)

Read the "Business Updates" section on the Whirlwind link -- the company has been tied up in legal action for the last 4 years and the company is for sale. See: 
Whirlwind Tool Patented Safety Technology for Sale or License

Also these are just prototypes. 

Have a feeling that this may go no where....


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

DaninVan said:


> not the stuff that goes in your DW.


is that how you keep the warden all sparkly...
beats having to change her mind, often...


----------



## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

The "warden" is spatial relations challenged...
She couldn't load the DW efficiently if her life depended on it.


----------



## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Speaking of safe sawing...
LiveLeak.com - Lumberjack Runs Away as Tree Splits during Cut
How's that for a hijack, eh?


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Whoa!!!


----------



## schnewj (Nov 18, 2013)

DaninVan said:


> The "warden" is spatial relations challenged...
> She couldn't load the DW efficiently if her life depended on it.


Ut, oh! (he muttered, as he cringes)


----------



## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

It's true; I swear it. Loading the DW is my job by default.


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

DaninVan said:


> It's true; I swear it. Loading the DW is my job by default.


hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....


----------



## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

DaninVan said:


> Speaking of safe sawing...
> LiveLeak.com - Lumberjack Runs Away as Tree Splits during Cut
> How's that for a hijack, eh?


I saw that on Facebook and my first thought was that he didn't have a wide or deep enough undercut for that tree. He proved me right.


----------



## schnewj (Nov 18, 2013)

DaninVan said:


> It's true; I swear it. Loading the DW is my job by default.


Oh, boy! I wonder if the "Warden" and my 95 year old mother are related!:surprise:


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

schnewj said:


> Oh, boy! I wonder if the "Warden" and my 95 year old mother are related!:surprise:


through the art of tact...


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.....

why do so many many women feel the absolute need to prewash the dishes before getting loaded in the DW.....
and they don't want you put up the washed dishes because they haven't been run through the DW on the 2 hour HD/extra clean settings...


----------

