# Craftsman 14" Bandsaw



## dhern (Mar 22, 2011)

Has anyone used a Craftsman 14 " Bandsaw? I am looking at a used one later today. Thanks


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

dhern said:


> Has anyone used a Craftsman 14 " Bandsaw? I am looking at a used one later today. Thanks


Hi David:

Take a look at this:

http://www.routerforums.com/woodwor...ndsaw-hung-li-hsing-comparison-15-brands.html

Hope it helps.


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## Tommyt654 (Apr 5, 2009)

David if its the newer Craftsman Bandsaw they are made by Rikon not the Hung Li Seng company and actually a very highly rated bandsaw . Its almost identical to the Rikon 10-320 and 325 version, quite a capable machine in its own right., Best 14" Bandsaws: Grizzly vs. Rikon vs. Powermatic vs. Laguna and More |


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Tommyt654 said:


> David if its the newer Craftsman Bandsaw they are made by Rikon not the Hung Li Seng company and actually a very highly rated bandsaw . Its almost identical to the Rikon 10-320 and 325 version, quite a capable machine in its own right., Best 14" Bandsaws: Grizzly vs. Rikon vs. Powermatic vs. Laguna and More |


Hi Tommy and David:

There's a reason a lot of vendors are selling the "flat top & round top" 14-inch. They are a robust and reliable machine. The Italian designed 14" that the Rikon is based on is also an excellent machine. I can't comment on the Rikon version. I haven't tried one. I have seen one of the old Italian ones and the DoAll machines are based on a concept similar to the Italian design. It's rock solid. BTW, all the flat top machines in the the article are the same.

The proof is in the pudding. Try it first. Open it up and take a look at the adjustments and make sure they're all working properly. Lastly, look at the welds and see if there are any that are cracked. 

Thanks I'm going to add a section to the 14" bandsaws of things that can go wrong.


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## Tommyt654 (Apr 5, 2009)

Yup,Them chinese have gotten real good at copying others designs,While the Rikon is manufactured in China as well as the Craftsman the Laguna's are actually manufactured in Europe. The flatop design has been used there for over 40 yrs and has only recently made it to our shores for hobbywork. While it has been used in commercial applications for yrs in industrial applications. Similiar in design to Tanneweitz and other europeon design manufacturers they generally offer better resaw capabilities than most roundtop bandsaws. If that craftsman is in decent shape and a flatop buy it if the price is right, say $200 or less. Otherwise I'd get the Griz 14 incher for around $450 shipped to your front door., G0580 14" Bandsaw 3/4 HP


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## dhern (Mar 22, 2011)

Thanks everyone. I seen the bandsaw yesterday and it looks to be about 10 years old. I am still not sure about it. The wheels did not have any rubber tires on them so that would be another cost. He want $150.00. I think I am going wait and see. Thanks again


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## RobinLocksley (Mar 28, 2011)

I have the Craftsman Professional 14", and it is a lovely machine. very heavy, and once you get the hang of adjusting the myriad of little wheels that hold the blade in place, it does a really lovely job. I can take pics if you need me to.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

RobinLocksley said:


> I have the Craftsman Professional 14", and it is a lovely machine. very heavy, and once you get the hang of adjusting the myriad of little wheels that hold the blade in place, it does a really lovely job. I can take pics if you need me to.


Hi Robin:

Does your saw have squared corners or rounded ones? I'm talking about the top wheel casing and the bottom one. If you have rounded ones, you have the 14" import. Craftsman stuck their brand on it too. If you do have it, I'd like the model number and any other information you can provide i.e. specifications etc.

If someone is looking up this thread in the future, it is possible that parts not available from Sears can be had from bandsaw specialty houses in Canada and the USA.


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## Cochese (Jan 12, 2010)

At that price you're getting close to the floor 14" bandsaw that Harbor Freight has with coupon. $80 more gets you a platform you could literally do anything with, aside from cutting something greater than 14" wide. For a HF product, I (and a couple of others) found build quality you'd except from the other Tai-Chi 14" saws that are probably built in the same factory. You can add a riser block, upgrade the motor, put some great blades on, and if the build quality is where it needs to be, could literally last you a lifetime.

But if you're cost or space challenged, it's understandable to go with a benchtop model. Of the benchtops, I'd probably only go with a Rikon, or Rikon-built version. Too many questions and inconsistencies I found with other models to justify buying.


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## dhern (Mar 22, 2011)

Thanks everyone


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Tommyt654 said:


> ... Otherwise I'd get the Griz 14 incher for around $450 shipped to your front door., G0580 14" Bandsaw 3/4 HP


Hi Tommy:

I would prefer the 14" Four Speed Woodworking Bandsaw version. same saw (literally), 4 Speed, $50 less.


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## Cochese (Jan 12, 2010)

Yup, that's mine. Only real difference is no roller guides.


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## Tommyt654 (Apr 5, 2009)

That machines not even close to the quality of the Griz, I think your sadly mistaken about how and where these machines come from and the overall quality of them per vendor. I know that HF has 4 speeds but who really needs more than 2 at the most and I have seen both in person ,not just pics in an add and I'll guarantee you there's a huge amount of casting differences and quality control on the Grizz vs the HF. But just don't take my word for it actually go see the 2 machines and then get back to me. While a lot of these maybe manufactured in the same plant each vendor has certain aspects of QC over their import, You need to realize that. Everyone knows that almost all the Ridgid,Powermatic, even Sawstop come out of chinese plants but there are very subtle differences in all whether you realize that or not. Not trying to be critical of your assumptions about where things are being made but the quality of the finish, bearing types ,guidebars etc, vary greatly between all the individual manufacturers. I don't know if you understand the process that these machines go thru from start to finish at each vendors assembly plant a totally different process entirely from the basic manufacturing of each tool.


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## Cochese (Jan 12, 2010)

Actually owning one, I think I can say from experience the quality control is not as different as it may have once been. For a savings of nearly $300 when I bought mine, I didn't mind spending a few minutes of fine tuning.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Tommyt654 said:


> That machines not even close to the quality of the Griz, I think your sadly mistaken about how and where these machines come from and the overall quality of them per vendor. I know that HF has 4 speeds but who really needs more than 2 at the most and I have seen both in person ,not just pics in an add and I'll guarantee you there's a huge amount of casting differences and quality control on the Grizz vs the HF. But just don't take my word for it actually go see the 2 machines and then get back to me. While a lot of these maybe manufactured in the same plant each vendor has certain aspects of QC over their import, You need to realize that. Everyone knows that almost all the Ridgid,Powermatic, even Sawstop come out of chinese plants but there are very subtle differences in all whether you realize that or not. Not trying to be critical of your assumptions about where things are being made but the quality of the finish, bearing types ,guidebars etc, vary greatly between all the individual manufacturers. I don't know if you understand the process that these machines go thru from start to finish at each vendors assembly plant a totally different process entirely from the basic manufacturing of each tool.


Hi Tommy:

At one time I would have agreed with you wholeheartedly. However, today everyone uses the same quality control methods so, even if you have two different machines, the quality levels are sufficiently similar to be considered the same. 

There is a reason I prepared the tables for the various products. I found that when I was looking for parts to rebuild my bandsaw I could get parts from just about anywhere. I found that while I was researching parts and information more and more places were showing the same thing. I went to my tool specialist in the next city and he had one tool on display. I asked if he had "brand x" and he showed me "brand y" and commented that this was identical to "brand x" but $150 cheaper. He suggested another vendor for "brand y". I went to the other vendor, and indeed it was identical.

In the 14" marketplace there is the square Italian design and the round top/flat top copies of the Delta. The tell tale component is the frame in the back of the top wheel. There will be a fork that holds a white metal casting that sets the tension on the blade. If you have this, it came from the same factory in Taiwan. 

I also found the same with the dovetail jigs, the thickness planers, 14" bandsaws, 6" jointers, radial arm drill presses and others have commented that mitre saws suffer the same dilemma. That I have yet to explore. 

It almost seems that North America has one philosophy and supplier and Europe has another. It will be interesting to see more of what is available in Europe, Africa, India and the rest of the Orient.


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## Tommyt654 (Apr 5, 2009)

Your almost correct ,but take for instance the Delta 28-276. It has a larger 16 x 16 inch table vs lets say the Grizz or the HF thats the subtle differences I 'm referring too. The bearings may be the same ID/OD but from a better source or manufacturer as that particular vender wants a higher grade of tooling. You can compare things like the backbone because its a standard in the industry but to compare the overall tooling with a Grizzly,Delta,Powermatic to a HF is just nuts. The only thing even remotely similiar might be the covers and backbone. But the wheel castings are different as the Delta uses aluminum wheels vs cast others use. To say they are the same is misleading. Even the motors are from different manufacturers. While I'll agree basic components are similiar with several models theres a huge difference in fit and finish of each machine. You'll get what you pay for in most cases, but the overall finish of the end product differs from each manufacturer. I have had the Ridgid, Delta, Craftsman and an older Powermatic and while they all are basically the same I can assure you and everyone else here there's a major difference in the overall finished product of each


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Tommyt654 said:


> Your almost correct ,but take for instance the Delta 28-276. It has a larger 16 x 16 inch table vs lets say the Grizz or the HF thats the subtle differences I 'm referring too.


Yes, the 16x16 table is interchangeable with the 14x14. Only the SteelCity versions have different trunions that I can see. I would consider the SteelCity version to be different but the Delta is just a variation. When there is a substantive difference I wouldn't consider it a 14" import.

That said, I note a difference with the Delta round top and the Hung Li Hsing flat top. Both use the same frame structure and the top wheel sliding bracket but the sheet metal is different. Interestingly enough, the bases are identical on the two types of machines.



> The bearings may be the same ID/OD but from a better source or manufacturer as that particular vender wants a higher grade of tooling. You can compare things like the backbone because its a standard in the industry but to compare the overall tooling with a Grizzly,Delta,Powermatic to a HF is just nuts.


Yet, when I compare the bearings available to me from a supplier they all carry the same brand names. Now, it is possible that different bearings are inserted in Taiwan, but replacement bearings are over the counter cheap SKF(? if I remember correctly)



> The only thing even remotely similiar might be the covers and backbone. But the wheel castings are different as the Delta uses aluminum wheels vs cast others use.


I have found that the wheels are time dependant. Wheels used at one period are different than those used at a later date. There are three types of wheels used: aluminum which almost everyone uses in a variety of castings, cast iron which are used on the bottom wheel and occasionally for both wheels and then there's SteelCity that actually uses a granite bottom wheel to improve the flywheel effect. 



> To say they are the same is misleading. Even the motors are from different manufacturers. While I'll agree basic components are similiar with several models theres a huge difference in fit and finish of each machine. You'll get what you pay for in most cases, but the overall finish of the end product differs from each manufacturer.


My concern when I wrote the article was to allow people to compare apples to apples and allow them to make informed decisions. I'm looking to see if I can use "brand x" parts on my aging bandsaw. I still consider the best value for your money the HarborFreight and the KingCanada or BusyBee. 

There was no rhyme or reason for the bizarre variation in prices from $349 US to over $1,100 US for the same saw with slight differences in options. These machines are assembled to specs and sold by the container load. You specify what you want and they tell you what their price is. The more you order, the cheaper they get. My experience is that the box is packed in Taiwan and I was the first person to open it since it was packed. 



> I have had the Ridgid, Delta, Craftsman and an older Powermatic and while they all are basically the same I can assure you and everyone else here there's a major difference in the overall finished product of each


I have to admit, I've only used the Craftex and the BusyBee and I've inspected the Delta and the Ridgid. I can tell you that there is a difference between the Craftex and the BusyBee but then there's 30 years difference between them as well and there's bound to be differences between them over that span of time. That said, the parts are interchangeable. 

Of all of the saws that I've examined the SteelCity 50130 is the only one to consider at a higher price than any of the others. Make sure you get the 16x16 granite table and the granite bottom wheel and the cast iron top wheel. Also the upper blade support structure is far superior to many other vendors.

Tommy, thank you for eloquently speaking your mind. Now members of the forum have two different perspectives from which to evaluate their planned purchases. Nicely done.

Ron


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## Tommyt654 (Apr 5, 2009)

Thanks Ron , You made my points all that more valid, but you could not pay me to buy a granite topped bandsaw with a granite wheel to boot. Living here in Ga. its all to easy to see how granite reacts to things like weather changes and stress fractures. I can only imagine what would happen to those pieces under any duration of use.Stamped steel is just that Ron, your gonna have a plant that just does that in various forms whether they be doors or table legs, Fact is your not comparing apples to apples you are tryin to make them all the same and for some reasoning you think they all come off the same boat from china, but during assembly here in the states like the Grizzly plant in Tenn or the Delta plant they undergo slight differences and upgrades such as paint , bearings, motors, etc. While maybe up in Canada they do things like buy from American suppliers that have already made the modifications and simply rebrand them under another name. Your assumptions are correct however in the fact that they all do for the most part come from Chinese manufacturing plants and the basic cheapest ones available are for the most part(HF,Busybee, etc) identical as they have not been massaged by another plant that makes their converion into a better more refined machine by removing casting sludge, changing out bearings, guides, wheels, tires, etc.However you are apparently set in your opinion and thats fine,we agree to disagree but I'll spend the lesser amount of dollars(bought all my bandsaws new and never paid more than $150 for any of them except the older powermatic) on a more refined product from companys that have bought the basic and them refined and reassembled them here in the states for a different customer base rather than just the basic off the boat that others sell. Cochesuga has bought the HF model after for months I tried to get him hooked up with a used version of the Delta or another brand, Jerry got a great deal on a Jet I hooked him up with. Now the difference there is Jerry can get parts readily available when and if his breaks, I don't know if Chris will have thew same luck with the HF model as their are subtle differences that are not apparent to the human eye in most case's and he can only hope that he can find a replacement part available from another distributor, he should be able to as that machine is a basic as one could buy. But comparing a Grizz 555 or a Delta 28-206 or any other higher end even the Steel city has certain differences that unless miked are not discernable to the human eye.


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## Cochese (Jan 12, 2010)

The difference, Tommy, is that I can take my bandsaw back to the store three miles from my house and get my full purchase price back for the next three years with nothing more out of pocket. And if I do need a part, I have someone i can talk with verifiable experience ordering the exact same parts from Grizzly and it working on my saw.


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## Tommyt654 (Apr 5, 2009)

Hey Chris,Chill out dude. I'm not knockin the HF saw, as a matter of fact after some tweaking it has been shown to perform as well as others. But what I'm seeing is a blanket across the board suggestion their all alike and they aren't, anyone who has had these knows there are subtle differences in them all. You might be able to get some parts for yours from Grizzly if something breaks and maybe not. But lets say a newbie joins our fine forum and reads that their all built by the same guys in China and gets the impression he'll just go with the cheapest one out there and it'll perform the same as another more expensive model from another manufacturer. It ain't gonna happen. You can't really expect all parts to interchange on these machines as indicated as they vary from machine to machine. Thats what I'm trying to convey here and while the HF model is an OK machine its not a Griz 555 or a Delta and will never perform as well as those without some mods period ,its just not the same machine , Matter a fact the HF has been hotrodded on several different websites to be a decent machine after mods that come standard on other BS that all. But my conclusion and I'm sounding redundant here but they just are not all the same tool as indicated and buyers should be aware of that going into a purchase.


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## Cochese (Jan 12, 2010)

You're free to think what you want. My research has led me to a different conclusion after consulting with others who have owned both models.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi

Just my 2 cents,,, I have had a HF band saw for many years and it's always done what I ask it to do, after all it's just a band saw that you don't use all the time, I'm sure if you do than you need to get one in the 800.oo to 1200.oo price range..but for the home shop it's a good one and many of the others are all about the same..If I recall I got it for 239.oo on sale..

But for the price ,the HF is a OK in my book..




===============


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Tommy:

If you can provide the differences I'd gladly add them to the tables. Right now I have 3 machines with 4 speeds, three for wood and one for metal. I also have 4 three speed machines -- two speeds for wood and one metal. Of all of the machines of this class, the Powermatic is the most expensive and is a single speed machine with a 15"x15" table, and the riser is additional cost. It does have some Carter add-ons but far from $700 worth.

This is something I've been on about for quite some time. I would dearly love to know what the difference in price is buying me. 

Some members contend that you get what you pay for. I contend that we've been so duped over the years that price only dictates the level of greed of the board of directors. My mother firmly believed that to be good quality it had to be expensive. I think we've been so conditioned to that philosophy that we are now easily taken advantage of. There is really little difference from brand to brand and certainly nothing to warrant a difference of $700+ between similar machines. Please, please tell me what the functional difference is between the Ridgid BS1400 and the Powermatic PWBS-14CS? Oh, the Ridgid is warranted for life and the Powermatic is warranted for 5 years.


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## Tommyt654 (Apr 5, 2009)

Easy enough to do, 14-Inch Band Saws , Since I prefer to actually do work without unecessary tweaking on a daily basis and constantly having to readjust cheap guides I prefer to have a slightly more expensive out of the box tool thats readily available and easy to reset for use rather than constantly mired in readjustments when changing blades ,plus the addition of havin real power to cut thru many materials without overtaxing the motor which BTW the HF has a bad track record on their motors. Enhancing the more expensive BS are better guides, wheels,tables etc, you do get what you pay for and I like to do bandsaw boxes and resaw a lot of lumber to size, very important to have the proper tool in that case and not one that struggles just cutting thru things. All in all the differences have been well documented in this article as well as others over the yrs and while each saw has its own nuances for additional performance if you don't use one much then the cheaper one is the route to go. I for 1 do not need a cheaper made tool to break down on me when I need it to function and have found that at a less expense to me in most case's I have gotten the better made BS at lower cost than the HF on sale w/20% off coupon, but hey,Thats just me


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Tommyt654 said:


> Easy enough to do, 14-Inch Band Saws


I'm sorry, Tommy but these "reviews" tell me nothing. I want to know how well balanced a wheel is. I want to know the weight of the wheel. Are the tyres neoprene or rubber or used car tyres. Are upgrades available from the vendor? Are the bearings good ones or cheap ones? 

How does one evaluate a bandsaw? Mine shakes like the devil when it is on an uneven place on the workshop floor but on an even surface it purrrs like a kitten. It had old heavy Gates fan belts on it. From not working for a long time, it developed a "flat spot" but replace both belts with linkbelts and operations become smooth and even.

My 3/4 HP induction motor is massive and heavy. A different type of motor could have better specifications but poorer performance. It is interesting that in all of the material I can find on bandsaws, none stipulate the type of motor. Thus, my fascination with types of motors of late.

I need real tangible information from real machines. TV, magazine and website reviews _can_ be easily influenced so have no validity.


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## Tommyt654 (Apr 5, 2009)

Apparently you failed to read the article, He actually set up and tested all those machines in real time,what more do you want, There's obviuosly no bias in his information only what he tested was spoken about. If you need real specs then perhaps you should quit lumping them all into a single "made in china " category and you'll see the differences yourself. Having had several of these machines now and in the past I can readily assure you the cheaper the model the more time spent tuning it and some even then you can't. I had a Ridgid that took nearly 2 oz. of lead weights on 1 wheel to get it to balance properly. Yes you can get flat spots on any belt that why I switched to a link-belt system on all my belt-driven tools. I like all my tools to pass the nickel test and some require more than others especially the cheaper versions and most of them still have vibration so away they went until I finally got into better tooling and found that the time and expense required to fine tune was more tolerable. My Delta and Jet bandsaws perform flawlessly and I'm considering a newer Grizzly 17 inch as my next purchase as resawing will become a greater part of my future woodworking endeavors.While an induction motor will in general produce more torque that a TEFC style I have found that speed and reliability are more conducive to my use's in my bandsaw and have them appropiately powered, even my smaller 12 inch Craftsman from 20 + yrs ago was upgraded to 1 h.p. as I found the 1/2 h.p. was underpowered for most use. I find that 1- 1/2 h.p. to be a good overall start when dealing with BS, noting however the Grizz that I plan to purchase is a 2 h.p which should suffice for most of my resawing as the Delta I now have with a 1 1/2 h.p. motor slows considerably when working through hardwoods. I have been fortunate tho over the years and have tested a wide variety of accessorized tooling for several manufacturers. Tim Lory over at Laguna provided me with these for my Delta several yrs ago at no cost to determine whether or not they are sufficient for the smaller Delta BS. I must admit tho expensive for the average joe they provided me with the ability to easily resaw thru dense walnut and with ease and the ceramic guide setup provided incredible stability for tight scrollin cuts that I usually make when doing bandsaw boxes with smaller 3/8ths to 1/4 inch blades as well as the resaw king and kerf kings pictured here:dance3:


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## Cochese (Jan 12, 2010)

allthunbs said:


> Some members contend that you get what you pay for. I contend that we've been so duped over the years that price only dictates the level of greed of the board of directors. My mother firmly believed that to be good quality it had to be expensive. I think we've been so conditioned to that philosophy that we are now easily taken advantage of. There is really little difference from brand to brand and certainly nothing to warrant a difference of $700+ between similar machines. Please, please tell me what the functional difference is between the Ridgid BS1400 and the Powermatic PWBS-14CS? Oh, the Ridgid is warranted for life and the Powermatic is warranted for 5 years.


All too true. I didn't feel like spending additional days, weeks and months scouring CL and wasting gas looking at overpriced tools (a Delta for $300 that was apparently value enhanced either by the name of the 1/2" of rust covering all surfaces). Some people enjoy that. 

What I particularly like is that in 30 months if I decide I want something different, I return it and I'm out $25 (the cost of the warranty). When offering advice to these woodworking beginners, I think that's a much better selling point than what name is on the side. It irritates me so when people start telling others, who are just starting out, that the should buy nothing less than a $3000 tool. I know, I saw it happen just a couple of months ago. There's a very unhealthy 'best you can afford' endemic in this and in other hobbies that simply turn people off from ever getting started. 

It's one thing to advise others off of a mistake tool, it's another to warn them that thy might regret it ten years down the line.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Tommyt654 said:


> Apparently you failed to read the article, He actually set up and tested all those machines in real time,what more do you want,


I want real information. I want to know what bearings are in the Powermatic and what ones are in the Ridgid. I want to know to what specification the frame is poured to. I want to know what specification the table is ground to. I want to know what specification the steel is milled to.

I was told by a reliable president of a company that his organization buys the same tool as Delta and specifies a few extra options and sells it for less than Delta. Use that as the base price and then sell the most feature rich you can for the cost of the upgrades -- and he still makes a profit.



> There's obviously no bias in his information only what he tested was spoken about.


Yet his verbiage is positive for the Ridgid and neutral for the Powermatic. When I recognized that I stopped reading. It was not worth my time. In my commentary, I put the elements in a table because that was the most neutral way of comparing machines. Do you want a machine capable of wood and metal? Good, there are 7 possible. Do you want overpriced models of the same thing? Good, there's lots.



> If you need real specs then perhaps you should quit lumping them all into a single "made in china " category and you'll see the differences yourself. Having had several of these machines now and in the past I can readily assure you the cheaper the model the more time spent tuning it and some even then you can't. I had a Ridgid that took nearly 2 oz. of lead weights on 1 wheel to get it to balance properly. Yes you can get flat spots on any belt that why I switched to a link-belt system on all my belt-driven tools. I like all my tools to pass the nickel test and some require more than others especially the cheaper versions and most of them still have vibration so away they went until I finally got into better tooling and found that the time and expense required to fine tune was more tolerable.


But, that's the point I'm trying to make. They _are_ all the same machine. You got a bad wheel on the Ridgid, take it back and get one to spec. It's no different for the Powermatic. You're always going to get bad product and good product. 

Any tool will have vibration that turns or moves.



> My Delta and Jet bandsaws perform flawlessly and I'm considering a newer Grizzly 17 inch as my next purchase as resawing will become a greater part of my future woodworking endeavors.


Ok, which do you prefer and why? You have had a Ridgid and you have a Delta and a Jet. There are slight differences between them but not great differences. How are they different? What components are in each? 



> While an induction motor will in general produce more torque that a TEFC style I have found that speed and reliability are more conducive to my use's in my bandsaw and have them appropiately powered, even my smaller 12 inch Craftsman from 20 + yrs ago was upgraded to 1 h.p. as I found the 1/2 h.p. was underpowered for most use. I find that 1- 1/2 h.p. to be a good overall start when dealing with BS, noting however the Grizz that I plan to purchase is a 2 h.p which should suffice for most of my resawing as the Delta I now have with a 1 1/2 h.p. motor slows considerably when working through hardwoods. I have been fortunate tho over the years and have tested a wide variety of accessorized tooling for several manufacturers.


All the motors I've seen on wood working equipment are "Totally Enclosed Fan Cooled" in order to reduce as much as possible fire from sparks from the brushes. 

That aside, induction motors seem to be required for this class of bandsaw. Some manufacturers specify they use single phase motors where others only say they use 15A motors. My saw specs a 1HP motor and, given the size, I have to assume it is an induction motor, single phase, rewirable to 240V.



> Tim Lory over at Laguna provided me with these for my Delta several yrs ago at no cost to determine whether or not they are sufficient for the smaller Delta BS. I must admit tho expensive for the average joe they provided me with the ability to easily resaw thru dense walnut and with ease and the ceramic guide setup provided incredible stability for tight scrollin cuts that I usually make when doing bandsaw boxes with smaller 3/8ths to 1/4 inch blades as well as the resaw king and kerf kings pictured here:dance3:


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## istracpsboss (Sep 14, 2008)

Thanks for all this, Ron. The old adage of 'you get what you pay for' simply isn't true any more. In the old days, quality relied on the skills of, often, a single individual in a company, who knew just how long to heat treat and temper something. While he lived, (and let's not mess about here, it was a HE !) that company produced the best planes, chisels, spanners/wrenches, whatever. The company was able to charge accordingly.
These days, those functions are automated. In the old days, machine tools were made by operators trying to keep to specified tolerances. These days, they are made to much tighter tolerances on CNC machines, day in, day out. 
Cars/autos are a prime example. When I was into motor racing, the trick was in getting a bunch of similar parts and reassembling with those closest to original specifications. You could pull significant extra power that way. These days you can pull a production Skoda that is made to tighter tolerances and performs accordingly.

Ignoring the higher priced me-toos, the people with the best reputations are often achieving it by running tighter QC and rejecting more from the same production lines.
The cheap stuff is more of a lottery, but can still be excellent value for money.There is just more chance of a dud and even those can often be resolved for less than the cost of the dearer stuff. 
When the cheap Chinese stuff like horizontal bandsaws first came out, we used to consider them as kits of castings that, with a little care and work, could still offer us something previously unattainable for anywhere remotely near the price.

Ron has pointed out some of the real world things that can affect any machine that has stood awhile. There is some very sound information in this thread.

Cheers

Peter


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

istracpsboss said:


> Thanks for all this, Ron. The old adage of 'you get what you pay for' simply isn't true any more. In the old days, quality relied on the skills of, often, a single individual in a company, who knew just how long to heat treat and temper something. While he lived, (and let's not mess about here, it was a HE !) that company produced the best planes, chisels, spanners/wrenches, whatever. The company was able to charge accordingly.


There are two types of companies in the world, those that learn, and those that don't. Hung Li Hsing doesn't learn, they copy and churn out cookies. Other companies organized for research and learning, actually run three "levels" in their companies: the first level is fully automated computer numerically controlled (CNC) production lines with automated assembly and sensor quality control. The second level goes back to the days of machine tools where everything was made one off but using machines. The third level goes back to the days when craftsmen were such. It took such time and effort and physical stamina and power of a man, few women were physically able to do it. These are the people that companies used to depend on to exist. Modern companies cycle their people through all three levels so that their collective skill level is so high that noone can compete, either with price, or quality. You hear of a compressor motor failing from "brand x" but never "brand y" howcum? The company philosophy is why -- a skilled workforce.



> These days, those functions are automated. In the old days, machine tools were made by operators trying to keep to specified tolerances. These days, they are made to much tighter tolerances on CNC machines, day in, day out.
> Cars/autos are a prime example. When I was into motor racing, the trick was in getting a bunch of similar parts and reassembling with those closest to original specifications. You could pull significant extra power that way. These days you can pull a production Skoda that is made to tighter tolerances and performs accordingly.
> 
> Ignoring the higher priced me-toos, the people with the best reputations are often achieving it by running tighter QC and rejecting more from the same production lines.
> ...


The kudos go to those willing to participate in this discussion. I'm only stirring the pot.


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## Tommyt654 (Apr 5, 2009)

Peter and Chris both make valid points. Chris good luck with your BS, The Delta I referred you to was in perfect condition I went to see it myself, not a rustbucket as you claim but thats my opinion and you have yours. Peter good points but I'll take a cadillac over a yugo anyday if I could afford it and lastly Ron, my my, you just don't get it do you my friend. The man put those machines together by hand ,assembled them himself and then tested each 1 individually and from a price-point of view made his notes and comparisons based on value. Something you have not as you claim them to all be from the same plant. Get your corporate president friend to tell us specifically which plant he buys from because I have friends at the Delta plants in S.C and Tenn. that would love to hear how this guys buying the same BS as theirs and reselling it cheaper than them,ha, thats a real funny 1.I suspect that over the course of the next few yrs we'll see exactly who makes what ,when ,where and how, but get out and really look at these machines and you'll see that the difference's are greater than you realize. I suspect you have seen very few of these machines in real life and make assumption based on photos or articles you may have read rather than actually having seen or run them and base you accusations on guessing rather than actual specs. You ask me for bearing spec,why would I want to teardown a perfectly tuned running BS to satisfy you wanting answers. Simply contact the manufacturer yourself if you need realtime answers. My Jet is a 12 inch, The best made in that size thats why I bought it.Its ran great with minor tuning(thats why I paid slightly more for it as it comes from the factory with all those fancy gizmo's I do not want to have to buy or add on) The Delta is a slightly modified(you saw the stuff I've added) 28-206 that ran well out of the Delta manufacturing box I got it in(note: not a made in china box)from the get go and all I have changed was the motor drive belt and tires(prefer the nylon over rubber a personal preference). But anyways Ron they are not all the same regardless of what you say because each manufacturer modifys them to meet their own specifications, you just have to take off those blinders you have on an look at them,Go to a trade show or a WW show and look at the various models and see. Yes the basic styles are the same but thats all


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## Cochese (Jan 12, 2010)

Tommy, it wasn't an opinion. The Delta I looked at in Dunwoody was completely rusted. The blade was so rusted he had to cut it off. It was at that point where I realized my time was better spent waiting for a sale. 

For my situation this was the best choice for me, and I suspect I'm not alone. The beginner finds what they think might be a good deal, and if it breaks a month later they will get discouraged, no matter how available replacement parts may be. One great thing about the 14" round top saws is that they are so similar. Parts for one do stand a very good chance of working on another. And with the reputation HF and Central Machinery have, real or imagined, I could probably pick up a parts mule for pennies on the dollar once I'm out of warranty. 

I got a three year money back return policy on that saw for under $310 out the door, and I don't have to ship it back to the importer if I need service. Once I factored that in, the Grizzly wasn't that fantastic of a value. 

I put a link belt on it (HF again), a ZC insert and some cool blocks and I have been very impressed. Aside from adding a washer or two to the motor mount, and a little bit of grinding on the table to get the insert to fit, there wasn't any major QC issues. But I had to do some grinding on my drill press, so I didn't view that as a big deal.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Hi Tommy:



Tommyt654 said:


> ...
> 
> Ron, my my, you just don't get it do you my friend. The man put those machines together by hand ,assembled them himself and then tested each 1 individually and from a price-point of view made his notes and comparisons based on value.


Ahh, but he provided no information on what he found. Only what he did. 

You have to remember, these machines are sufficiently alike as to be functionally identical. My objective is to find a method of comparing these machines so as to determine why one would be higher priced than the next.




> Something you have not as you claim them to all be from the same plant. Get your corporate president friend to tell us specifically which plant he buys from because I have friends at the Delta plants in S.C and Tenn. that would love to hear how this guys buying the same BS as theirs and reselling it cheaper than them,ha,


Hung Li Hsing Electric Works Co., Ltd.
No. 48, Lane 493, Sec. 3 Chung Shan Road
Tantze, Taichung, Taiwan, R.O.C.



> I suspect you have seen very few of these machines in real life and make assumption based on photos or articles you may have read rather than actually having seen or run them and base you accusations on guessing rather than actual specs. You ask me for bearing spec,why would I want to teardown a perfectly tuned running BS to satisfy you wanting answers. Simply contact the manufacturer yourself if you need realtime answers.


See below.

I tried contacting vendors and none provide meaningful information. Only those vendors in the US and Canada provide online manuals and none want to provide any information that will influence their bottom line.



> thats a real funny 1.
> 
> I suspect that over the course of the next few yrs we'll see exactly who makes what ,when ,where and how, but get out and really look at these machines and you'll see that the difference's are greater than you realize.


I have personally viewed Ridgid, Craftex & busybee (same machine, same vendor, different dates 30 years apart) and the SteelCity 50100. The rest I classify from the parts drawings and the parts inventory. On those that I have no manual or parts breakdown for, I picked based on shape and telltale features. On the older versions, RAM, BusyBee, Frejoth, Timbecon and some Generals, the manufacturer provided a manual for AW14 and everyone put their brand on that manual. Now, vendors are getting more sophisticated and providing manuals of their own making. 

Then, they're also watching their pennies. Take a look at page 31 of the Central Machinery 67595 manual and page 46 of the Grizzly G0555 manual. The blade/wheel drawings are identical. The only difference between the machines, is the Central Machinery have the stepup bottom mounted motor whereas the Grizzly has the frame mounted motor. You can't upgrade the frame mount but you can the base mount. The Craftex manual page 26 is the identical drawing but the parts are moved around a bit. 

The Jet 708115K manual page 25 shows the same blade/wheel components as does the Craftex manual page 26. 

Grizzly g0555 page 46 and king canada service manual first page, drawings are identical. 

This one is a bit twisted. Take the PorterCable PCB330BS page 26. The point of view has been rotated 90 degrees but is the same as the Grizzly g0555.

Here's a good one: Ridgid BS14002_292_4_sheet.pdf figure A moves things around a bit but is the same as the Powermatic M_1791216K.pdf page 30. That's one of the cheapest and the most expensive machines and their drawings are the same. ;-)



> My Jet is a 12 inch, The best made in that size thats why I bought it.Its ran great with minor tuning(thats why I paid slightly more for it as it comes from the factory with all those fancy gizmo's I do not want to have to buy or add on) The Delta is a slightly modified(you saw the stuff I've added) 28-206 that ran well out of the Delta manufacturing box I got it in(note: not a made in china box)from the get go and all I have changed was the motor drive belt and tires(prefer the nylon over rubber a personal preference). But anyways Ron they are not all the same regardless of what you say because each manufacturer modifys them to meet their own specifications, you just have to take off those blinders you have on an look at them,Go to a trade show or a WW show and look at the various models and see. Yes the basic styles are the same but thats all


Please note that I'm dealing only with Hung Li Hsing 14" import bandsaws. I'm not dealing with other bandsaws although the Italian designs are being copied and flogged around the world the same way as the 14" import.

I have not been able to find information on older Delta bandsaws but I've seen pictures of older ones but not been able to identify model numbers. I've also had difficulty identifying Canadian made Delta vs. US made Delta. 

Please see above.


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## Tommyt654 (Apr 5, 2009)

Cocheseuga said:


> Tommy, it wasn't an opinion. The Delta I looked at in Dunwoody was completely rusted. The blade was so rusted he had to cut it off. It was at that point where I realized my time was better spent waiting for a sale.
> 
> Chris I was reffering to the Delta 28-276 in Rome, it was almost new, anyways good luck with your saw if it works for you then good, but you don't have to send a Grizzly back to any importer, they are assembled here in the USA to Grizzlys specs and anyone that has had to deal with Grizzly will tell you they have excellent customer service. When your HF fails or the motor burns out then you have to drag it back to HF, get another 1 and spend your time and money reassembling another one , Grizzly sends you a new machine in most case's and p/u the other or will sometime simply let you keep it. Either way the HF works for you and thats what counts, Ron can keep puddling away at his reviews of every 14 inch bandsaw in the world but it will not convince me or others here that they are all the same,frankly I think he waste a lot of forum space with his addage to the manual section on things most folk will prolly never need,afterall if they are all the same why keep posting identical manuals? we have purchased other higher end brands and for the most part are satisfied with our purchase's and the fact we no longer have to spend large amounts of money to refine them which is the case in the saws he seems to insist are the same. Granted there are similarities in the drawings, but they are drawings, no specs shown for anything I saw in any of them other than basic H.P ratings and a few bolt sizes and assembly tips and guides, those aren't technical enough to determine who makes what ,where, when , or how. My Delta is a dream, my Jet superb for a 12 incher and the new Grizz 17 in a few months will compliment the others for resaw purposes, but I'm not buying into Ron's belief they all come outta the same plant in china,taiwan or korea,except for maybe the cheapest possible brands something I prefer in most case's to not spend my money on:dirol:


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## Cochese (Jan 12, 2010)

Unless I am mistaken, I would either have to drag the Grizzly back to a terminal or pay an additional $50, on top of the $50 I paid before, to have it delivered on a lift truck. It's those hidden costs that I keep talking about, which some people don't factor or ignore.

Like I said before, HF is a lot closer for me than it is for you, so there's really no 'dragging' involved. And Rome was just too far of a drive for me to make, with time and gas involved. As were the ones I kept seeing in Conyers. I'm not trying to belabor that point on you, but I think it's an important distinction and factor when people decide what tool, of any flavor, they decide to purchase.

With these used tools located over half of N. Georgia, I just don't have the time or money to spend going hunting for them.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Tommyt654 said:


> Ron can keep puddling away at his reviews of every 14 inch bandsaw in the world but it will not convince me ...


I'm not trying to convince you but I'm putting my arguments forward, for what they're worth, and allow others to examine the evidence and make their own decisions. That you took the time to comment is what is important. 

But, it sounds like you've completely missed the point about the comparisons. They're not reviews, I'll leave that to the magazine publishers and their advertising departments. What they are is a feature by feature comparison of like machines. If you want to compare 12" bandsaws and 17" bandsaws, write your own comparisons. I only recognized the similarity in the 14". 

You may be absolutely right and machines shipped from Taiwan are being disassembled and reassembled in the US. If that's the case, I sure hope they're adding real value, not just phantom profits. If it's 14" import bandsaws that are being "remanufactured" the comparison still stands. 

In all this discussion at no point has anyone disclosed what we would get for paying more money for essentially the same machine. Of all the bandsaws in the comparison, the SteelCity granite model is the only one that is truly different.


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## Tommyt654 (Apr 5, 2009)

OK,Fine I'm really not going to continue to argue about this cause its futile. But think about this, Where's the customer service on these cheaper copys gonna be if a "distributor" doesn't back up his "reassembled" tools. Thats the value. HF has no customer service other than "go get another one off the shelf attitiude when something breaks, if they do not have one in stock(likely) then your outta luck waiting for a replacement machine. If brand xyz has no support group like those at Delta, Jet, Powermatic, Steel City, Grizzly then what. Thats why you pay for the extra service and availability of parts and a customer service base. Then you have the fact already admitted too by Ron that there are subtle differences between all the different manufacturers, when one of those parts breaks where you gonna go,"Back to China", don't think so. Like I said you could not pay me to run and bandsaw with a granite wheel(don't wanna be around when it goes off". Now Steel City makes another model thats sold by Lowes(What Lowe sell's Steel City) Yes just go to their webpage and search for it. Point is Ron, Lots of basic castings come outta china,taiwan,korea and then get massaged. Look at the HF Mortisers,Lathe's, Dp's, they all look like something we have seen at these other fine manufacturers cause the C,T,K, have used our manufacturers design to copy them. I 4 1 want customer service and a parts base in case I need it or an upgrade for it if they have something developed, Not gonna happen with the off brand C,T,K models sold so cheaply by other less than stellar import groups trying to make an easy buck off the unknowing, which in this case seems to be a few members hereBut your point seems to contend its all about value,Well my friend I see value in paying a few extra bucks to have the support of a company that puts its name brand on a product and stands behind it,Something your not gonna find with your chinese takeoffs, but go ahead and buy them ,but when they break (hah) don't expect to much help


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## Tommyt654 (Apr 5, 2009)

Cocheseuga said:


> Unless I am mistaken, I would either have to drag the Grizzly back to a terminal or pay an additional $50, on top of the $50 I paid before, to have it delivered on a lift truck. It's those hidden costs that I keep talking about, which some people don't factor or ignore.
> 
> Like I said before, HF is a lot closer for me than it is for you, so there's really no 'dragging' involved
> 
> You are mistaken Chris, period. Grizzly has a huge support group when it comes to customer service, something your gonna find out about when you HF breaks as their customer service is, go get another one off the shelf, and maybe you'll get lucky and a Grizzly customer service rep will help you try to find a piece that will fit your saw, maybe not. They may need a part no. or description, if you have one fine. But you still gonna be buying from the same folks your complaining about so there gonna get into your pocket anyways. You pay to have their tools shipped to your door, Great I say, saves on Gas. They do not charge you to p/u an item that fails or breaks and in most case's because they have a huge support group they'll p/u the tab and ship overnight in some case's free of charge if the part is warranted. When's HF gonna do that. So there's the true value. I would have gladly if I had been in your shoes paid the extra $100+ just for that fact alone, not too mention it's one of the better ranked BS out there. You DO GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR especially when it come to dealing with reputable manufacturers and distributors. HF is undergoing a huge change right now from what I have heard and I won't be buying anything large from them until that ship gets righted. You do know they have a tendency to just say, "We no longer carry that item" then where are you, right back to where you are gonna be anyways by buying an off-brand knockoff to save a few dollars for right now, but whats gonna happen when the frame cracks or while moving it you topple it over and a door gets bent or damaged, Good Luck with that


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## Cochese (Jan 12, 2010)

Whatever. At this point it's just not worth talking with you about it. You're right, we're all wrong.


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## istracpsboss (Sep 14, 2008)

Hi Tommy

Are you in the machine tool business ?

Most of the regulars on here have been around machinery for a good few years and are beyond the point where hot shot salesmen can convince us that an orange is a lemon. Sticking on 20 bucks worth of upgrades but charging 200 more on the price is a sign of the times. Swapping out some standard sized bearings for better ones, or balancing a wheel does not justify a massive price difference.

Ron made the very valid point that a lot of the specs are time specific. 30 years ago there were much clearer distinctions in quality. Makes that were better or worse then are not necessarily made the same way these days. These days automation of production of many parts plus the marketingdroids puts a very different spin on things.
You mentioned never paying more than 150 bucks for your saws, so this was presumably a while back.

30 years ago I bought Stanley planes, but Marples chisels. I wouldn't have dreamed of buying Stanley chisels, any more than I would have bought Stanley spanners/wrenches. Now Stanley or Irwin offer full ranges of things they never did previously and had no particular reputation for, but the marketing works not on the basis of quality specifically, but on the brand name and how famous it is. 
Bosch and Freud both sell saw blades and at different prices. Freud is probably better known to professionals, while Bosch is to the DIY crowd. Both have a decent name. The few Bosch router bits I have were all made in China. Marking country of origin is mandatory here. The Bosch saw blades are almost certainly made in the Freud factory in Italy, as I don't think Bosch ever had a blade making operation and they own Freud anyway. Each marque has its own fan club though, wherever the stuff came from.

Marketing has taken over. It is a 'profession' that has more to do with psychology than fact, but is an essential weapon for public companies for whose shareholders it is not good enough just to make a profit. They have to make a higher profit every year, or the shareholders walk, dropping the share value on which the security for the company's borrowing is based. Shareholders, most of whom are professionals acting for big funds and who are only interested in numbers, matter more than customers, who get the smoke and mirrors routine.

Years ago our local television station took a box of tomatoes and split the contents between three boxes outside a greengrocers and put three different prices on, then interviewed buyers.
Typical responses were:
I always buy the best (From someone buying the highest price ones)
I've a big family and can only afford the cheapest
I'd like to be able to buy the best but I have to be careful (From someone buying the middle priced ones)

They had a steady stream of buyers over the day mostly with variations on those three responses. Virtually no-one examined the three boxes and bought on the basis that they were clearly all the same so they just paid the lowest price. Quality clearly bore no relationship to price. 

Marketing people know this full well and push it to the limits. High prices are no longer a factor for me when determining quality, but they would have been 30+ years ago.

Cheers

Peter


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Nicely put Peter.

Ron


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