# Milk jug knobs



## Chris Curl (Feb 13, 2012)

i have all these tops that i have been collecting from the jugs of the milk we drink.

i think they would be good for jig knobs, but i'm not sure how best to do it.

how would YOU make knobs out of them?


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

Chris, 

If you are lucky, BJ will post a picture of the jig he has made just to make knobs out of bottle lids - yes he has even made a jig for that.


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## OPG3 (Jan 9, 2011)

I would not attempt to make knobs from something like that for several reasons.
1. When clients visit my shop, I don't want them to see where I am "cutting corners" in an attempt to save a nickel.
2. Tightness settings on knobs can sometimes be a safety factor. My fingers are worth much more than the savings.
3. In today's economy, "Time is Money". I buy hundreds of knobs from Peachtree Wood Working 1/4-20, 5/16-18 & 3/8-16 and they are all approximately $1.00 each. I buy so many that I never run out and I never make a trip just to buy knobs.
4. I drink skim milk and it often has pink tops - the color doesn't match my decor.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi

They are safe to use and make,I don't see why saving a nickle can hurt the bottom line. 

The real plus you can make them for the Metric way, just a metric tee nut and some metric rod and some fiber glass resin you have them done in about 5 mins. the norm,I have made 20 at one time for about 10 cents each..or less..they can be made in the male way or the female way if you don't like the color just snap on a new cap to go with your decor  if that's a big deal  I do like to use pop caps they are the same size and shape as the normal knobs.

You can see many of them in my Uploads..and how to make them quick and easy..at one time I did buy them (knobs) but no more.. 

what do they say waste not want not..

===



OPG3 said:


> I would not attempt to make knobs from something like that for several reasons.
> 1. When clients visit my shop, I don't want them to see where I am "cutting corners" in an attempt to save a nickel.
> 2. Tightness settings on knobs can sometimes be a safety factor. My fingers are worth much more than the savings.
> 3. In today's economy, "Time is Money". I buy hundreds of knobs from Peachtree Wood Working 1/4-20, 5/16-18 & 3/8-16 and they are all approximately $1.00 each. I buy so many that I never run out and I never make a trip just to buy knobs.
> 4. I drink skim milk and it often has pink tops - the color doesn't match my decor.


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## Chris Curl (Feb 13, 2012)

bob, so fiberglass resin is your go to stuff ... ok.

do you put something in the void of the cap, like a dowel that is about the same size? or does the resin hold the t-nut well enough that nothing else is necessary?

otis, i have no clients to worry about. just the wife and myself. we are all about re-using stuff when it makes sense.

what i like about these specific caps is that they are very plentiful, the size is good, and they are not thin flimsy things.

the only down side is that the color scheme in my garage is charcoal and silver, with craftsman red for color. if the caps were red, they'd be perfect.


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## Chris Curl (Feb 13, 2012)

jw2170 said:


> Chris,
> 
> If you are lucky, BJ will post a picture of the jig he has made just to make knobs out of bottle lids - yes he has even made a jig for that.


i would love to see that, along with a little blurb about how it does its thing


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## PetersCreek (Mar 13, 2012)

If it wasn't for the logo, I'd be hard pressed to tell that those NOS caps weren't from a knob manufacturer's product line.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi

" or does the resin hold the t-nut well enough that nothing else is necessary"
That's all you need in the cap 
A pint can with hardener from just about any auto parts store for about 12.oo..


===




Chris Curl said:


> bob, so fiberglass resin is your go to stuff ... ok.
> 
> do you put something in the void of the cap, like a dowel that is about the same size? or does the resin hold the t-nut well enough that nothing else is necessary?
> 
> ...


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## OPG3 (Jan 9, 2011)

To each his own. Many people would use them and I'm sure that BJ is thinking about safety when he is building things. My clients pay me a fortune to do what I do for them. The $1.00 cost of knobs truly is not worth me or one of my people fiddling around with it. Maybe in other areas these bottle tops are strong, but ours are quite flimsy. A little resin, a tee nut, a short piece of threaded rod, clean-up just ain't something I would do to save 4- quarters, not with Peachtree Wood Working right down the street.


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

bobj3 said:


> "_or does the resin hold the t-nut well enough that nothing else is necessary_"
> 
> That's all you need in the cap
> A pint can with hardener from just about any auto parts store for about 12.oo..
> ...


Holy cow! I was trying to think of any uses for the gallon that's been sitting out in the storage shed still un-opened. I almost threw it out about a month ago. I can "re-cycle" it now. (or, now I have and excuse to my girlfriend why it's still out there...)


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## Chris Curl (Feb 13, 2012)

hey bob, what is this bottle cap knob making jig that james referred to earlier?

otis, they are not at all cheap where i live. if there was a local place that sold them for $1 or less and i could get them whenever i wanted them, then i might consider just buying them


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Chris

I will take a snap shot of it and post it's just a simple wood frame with holes in it to hold the cap on dead center with the threaded rod and tee nut with blue tape on the bottom side part so the cap can just slip out easy..once the resin is hard in about 2 mins. or so..I use the little black cup that I get in the Taco Bell salad for free to mix the resin up, waste not want not, thing again, I do like Taco Bell salads a lot, I must 50 or so on hand, one cup will do about 6 knobs. 

I do ask for some extra cups all the time they don't seem to mind a bit..I do get 10 or so or to say a hand full, just about every time 

===

==


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

OPG3 said:


> My clients pay me a fortune *to do what I do for them.*


Don't say. No. I'm sorry, I have to say it... I am painfully modest and don't like to talk about myself, but to keep this impersonal and trying not to be offensive or for you to take it the wrong way... I'll talk about myself and my experiences with that.

I am a Master Carpenter, at least that's what I ended up working as after many years in the trade. My clients also paid "me" well for the quality and craftsmanship of my work. Custom home's between $500 thousand to $10 million... and still- affordable remodels for the average Joe. 

In over 30 years, I don't think any of them looked at what brand my tools were or what tools they were, except about 5 of them who made comments of that they were fully functional and skillfully used for the quality that came out of them. That I knew _how_ to use my tools.

The Master Carpenter that brought me through the ranks... Name brands/high dollar... but was a gift to himself. (And great warranties!!!) And yet in a pinch, I saw him use a tool never remotely for a purpose used to create a masterpiece. So that adds another factor into this of ingenuity and creativity.

Around here in the past 10 years, a new factor started to get thrown into it, re-use. People here in the Northwest US lean towards recycling, re-using materials or creating something from alternate materials. (etc, beach driftwood/logs/etc) I was getting paid more for re-using materials that buying new!!! Then again, some of that always existed, like re-using existing 19th century mahogany trim and millwork (was all done with hand planes, chisels and now brittle as heck!!!). 

I've seen medium dollar but quality tools turn out amazing work/craftsmanship. I've seen 5 figure tools turn out garbage. It surely wasn't any shortage on the tool's functionality. That's more about tuning and skill.

Although, I do have to admit, I have a few tools that stay home (shop mount's and such) and then there tools that go to a jobsite. The biggest difference I see in those jobsite tools- they really have to pay for there existence. I have to be able to do what I need to with them. Most of them have to be multi-functional. Those that stay home would surely be more eye-candy if for some outlandish reason I thought I needed to show-off to a customer, but that's just not me... and that would not affect what the customer was paying for.

On brand-appeal, I think that reflects of the person that thinks that is really a factor rather than others that might see it. I have too much experiences with people that were worried about these things to be able to comment on this objectively... (My son-in-law.)

Can you see what I'm trying to explain? I hope I didn't get off in to much of a tangent. You know us old people.

Bottomline: My customers cared about what they received for their money. (<-- Big Period)

On BJ's knobs? Most of my customers aren't looking over my shoulder while I work. Most would not notice, unless I pointed it out to them. Those that would would applaud it. It always seemed to me that handmade tools or tools tailored to the craftsman/by the craftsman... take more skill than going out and buying something that's close, that would hold less satisfaction.


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## stan2602 (Jan 26, 2012)

I think it's really cool, heck I would try it. Plus you can spray the knobs with krylon plastic paint.


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

*Thanks BJ..*



bobj3 said:


> Hi Chris
> 
> I will take a snap shot of it and post it's just a simple wood frame with holes in it to hold the cap on dead center with the threaded rod and tee nut with blue tape on the bottom side part so the cap can just slip out easy..once the resin is hard in about 2 mins. or so..I use the little black cup that I get in the Taco Bell salad for free to mix the resin up, waste not want not, thing again, I do like Taco Bell salads a lot, I must 50 or so on hand, one cup will do about 6 knobs.
> 
> ...


Thanks for posting BJ.

I did not realize that my privileged visit to your shop would be of benefit to the members so quickly....:yes4:


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## Chris Curl (Feb 13, 2012)

bob,

i'm starting to follow you now thanks. 

at first, when you started talking about it, i was imagining you were putting a thin layer of the resin and hardener in the bottom of the cap and then putting the nut or bolt in, sort of like if you were gluing it in. Now I see that you are filling the cap with the resin.

sorry for these seemingly simple questions ... i have never worked with the fiberglass resin

with a t-nut, is the resin thick enough that it won't seep up into the middle of the nut?

and how do you do the "through knobs" where the bolt can go all the way through the cap and come out the back? when do you put the hole in the cap?

if you accidentally get the resin in or on the threaded part of the bolt or nut, is it hard to get off, or do you just clean it afterwards with a tap or die?


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Chris

It's a good thing that the resin will leak in the bottom and the top of the tee nuts it locks the rod in place but it's not a big deal to back one back out if needed for a female type knob,once you back it out just drill a smaller hole down inside of the tee nut and then just drill a hole in the top side with a bigger drill bit than the tee nut size no need to re-tap it out ,,the tee nut the rod will clean it up once you remove the rod or bolt,I use two nuts and the jam nut way to back out the rod.

By the way no need to bend the points on tee nuts they are just right to lock the nuts in place and just right to fit inside almost all caps.. 
====



Chris Curl said:


> bob,
> 
> i'm starting to follow you now thanks.
> 
> ...


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## OPG3 (Jan 9, 2011)

Mike (MAFoElffen), I see where you're coming from. I am not working at other people's locations, but rather I am working in my own shop (one of two). I'm not making stairs, cabinets or doing trim work - I make prototypes for inventors. My products are not necessarily attractive - they are functional. Several of my products are sold world-wide and I work with products where trade secrets are kept and reputations are high. You very likely have products in your home or workshop or tool box that I played a part in developing. I agree with saving money when money can be saved, but FOR ME, there just isn't a lot of money to be saved by using milk jug tops in lieu of factory made knobs sitting in bins right under my nose for $1.00 each at Peachtree Wood Working. Before PWW was on my regular travel path, I was always griping about the prices of these type accessories at Rockler and WoodCraft - and what was even more aggravating was they would only have 2 or 3 at a time on their shelves. Not the case for me, now.

Have you ever been in a court case involving OSHA or Worker's Compensation? If you have you may already know, but possibly have forgotten; when the photos go up on the screen -if anyone sees stuff made out of milk jug knobs - you would get booted out of court. An exception to this is the recently publicized case where a genius cut-off his finger with a table saw DOING EVERYTHING WRONG.

My shop is fully insured and regularly inspected. I simply know better than to do this in my case. Look, I'll admit it ain't a big deal - you may change some minds, but for me and my shop there will be no milk jug tops utilized.

My concrete formwork product line is made of recycled HDPE plastic. Until 2008 we were the US's largest user of recycled HDPE. You are 100% right about reuse of resources, but I don't personally need a lecture about that, but THANKS for spreading the word.

I think for my situation this might be unique, but for your situation - do anything you wish, but be forewarned that RUBE GOLDBERG setups will get you thrown out of court. That's all I am trying to express. Hey we even had a popular thread about "FRUGAL WOODWORKING" - it was a really cool thread. Many of the suggestions were really neat and some good ideas were openly discussed. Bobj3 showed some of his wooden homemade knobs and those were really nice - now something like that is as good as (if not even better than) what I currently use. I just do not like to mix "flimsy" with "safety".
I hope you have a very nice day.


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

OPG3 said:


> Mike (MAFoElffen)...


Otis-

I am in total agreement with you. I intimately know too well about OSHA and the Department of Labor and Industries. Something's, especially when it involves employees, get complicated. Then when you sell products that you manufacture.... My dad once told me he wanted to be cremated and his ashes spread over OSHA Headquarters. (As a last get-back) He's been retired for a while now and he still feels that way. LOL.

My ex-brother-in-law has a machine shop that does aeronautics. (I was a machinist until I decided I found it boring and meticulous) He has a full-time safety inspector. I have a deep appreciation for how simple the building codes and regulations I have to follow as a carpenter seem in comparison.

Sorry if I came out wrong or strong. Peace offering? Need a friend? Need something from the forge?

BJ-- It turned out so simple. Thanks for sharing that.

Mike


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## Chris Curl (Feb 13, 2012)

ok bob, i'm almost there! sorry, i can be dense sometimes ...

to recap your process:

for a female knob:

- screw a bolt into a tee-nut and position that in the bottle cap
- support it to keep the threaded rod perpendicular if necessary
- fill the cap with fiberglass resin (that has been mixed with hardener)
- let it harden (about how long does that take?)
- remove the threaded rod
- drill out the back side of the cap so a bolt can go all the way through

for a male knob:

- position a bolt in the bottom of the cap and secure it perpendicular
- fill with resin
- let it harden

anything else?

other questions:

- have you ever used other epoxy-like adhesives? the resin is pretty expensive at my big box store.
- how would body filler work? that is about $5 less expensive for a quart


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Chris Curl said:


> other questions:
> - how would body filler work? that is about $5 less expensive for


Bondo? Bondo is porous and brittle. First mix is like a putty, so you have to worry about voids. Cured, it stays workable with rasps and such. It will bond to metals, but doesn't bond well to plastics. (That's why you use plastic squeegees with it.) I'm not sure that would be a good choice at trying to hold a t-nut.


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## Chris Curl (Feb 13, 2012)

MAFoElffen said:


> Bondo? Bondo is porous and brittle. First mix is like a putty, so you have to worry about voids. Cured, it stays workable with rasps and such. It will bond to metals, but doesn't bond well to plastics. (That's why you use plastic squeegees with it.) I'm not sure that would be a good choice at trying to hold a t-nut.


ok, resin it is. i can get it for less at the ace hardware down the street ($15 at home depot, $12 at ace)


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi

You got it 

I have tried epoxy-like adhesives? but it didn't work well for me the tee nut was not in real tight just a little to much slop..  the resin is like honey it just slides in all the way around the two items..I some times put the rod in more than the tee nuts to give a more holding power on the bottom side of the tee nut on the male type..
Most epoxy-like adhesives take a 50 / 50 mix or so with the resin it's just a drop or two for the harden..


==


Chris Curl said:


> ok bob, i'm almost there! sorry, i can be dense sometimes ...
> 
> to recap your process:
> 
> ...


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## Chris Curl (Feb 13, 2012)

update: for grins, since i had these things on hand, i tried one each with:

- wood glue mixed with sawdust
- "amazing goop"
- 5 minute epoxy

i don't have any fiberglass resin yet.

i'll report back tomorrow how they came out. i do NOT have very high expectations, but i have about 50 of the caps, so if i trash a few, no biggie.


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## japa62 (May 9, 2012)

I remember from school that when we used resin and didn't want it to stick to the mold, we put a very thin film of Vaseline on those surfaces. Might work if smeared on the rod if you are after a female knob.


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## OPG3 (Jan 9, 2011)

Mike (MAFoElffen), no problem - we are just looking at this subject from different perspectives. I'll send you a friend request. There is no need to apologize. I would venture to guess that a majority of the Router Forums members will agree with you, rather than me. I am not trying to change anyone - simply stating where "I am coming from".

Let's say I've got an employee who mows-off the ends of two fingers. Worker's Comp gets involved, or my homeowner's policy gets involved. Both of those companies will try to avoid paying the medical bills. OSHA _automatically_ gets involved. Photos get taken, because quite frankly - the insurance company wants to reduce their expenses. A court date gets set and on that date, a brief explanation is followed by the Power Point presentation. When the people in court see the homemade featherboard held-on with Milk Jug Top knobs, "reasonable doubt" (on me, the shop owner) is asserted. I've been there as an "expert witness" and I've learned my lesson by observing the mistakes of others. I would just hate to see anyone go through that sort of thing.


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## Noob (Apr 18, 2009)

OPG3 said:


> To each his own. Many people would use them and I'm sure that BJ is thinking about safety when he is building things. *My clients pay me a fortune to do what I do for them.*





OPG3 said:


> Mike (MAFoElffen), I see where you're coming from. I am not working at other people's locations, but rather* I am working in my own shop (one of two). *


Not sure if it makes you feel bigger or better bragging about yourself, but if you don't want to make these or if you are too rich to bother with making them, then why post? If you don't want to make these then don't make them. If you make too much money to make some of these, then don't make them. 

You don't have to post to brag about yourself or to knock others for wanting to make some of these. Why not just read the post and ignore it and move on without posting instead of knocking what others WANT to do. Many if not most on here are just do-it-yourselfers and don't own 2 companies or places of business. That said, even if we have the money to purchase knobs but want to make our own, not sure why you have to put others down for that.


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## OPG3 (Jan 9, 2011)

Paulo, You made a very good point,


> Why not just read the post and ignore it and move on without posting instead of knocking what others WANT to do.


, and I think you are the only one that took it like that. I began at the top of the post from Chris Curl (who often has some very good questions) and gave my point of view. What people WANT to do is often affected by their perception of what the pros & cons are. I was simply stating some facts about knobs and how they are utilized. I'm not


> too rich to bother with making them


, but rather have an inexpensive way to acquire knobs and have quite a bit of experience that I felt was relevant. On the other hand, I didn't see anything about knobs in your post. Do you not have need to be fully OSHA compliant? I felt that some readers needed to hear from that point-of-view, but HEY I didn't mean to "ruffle your feathers". Now you go and have yourself a nice day!


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Otis-- Hang in there. I understand your perspective. Everyone is due their own perspective and opinion, albeit tempered by their outside constraints... and voicing it does let others in on that perspective. Sometimes we need the whole story.

I'm sure with the tooling in your shop, in-house featherboards and knobs would look better and exceed any of the spec's you are being held to -- but couldn't do it because of those constraints. 

My father was under those same constraints. Any because of that, the best priced items didn't qualify. With him, even some items had to be sold by a company in-country, even thought the product could have been made for that company out-of-country.

Others--- FYI. More work but... I just saw a video of someone who melted down a milk jug and routed in into a knob. Hmmm. BJ's way is definitely easier and faster for a DIY.

EDIT-- The way those "NOS" knobs look almost makes me want to start drinking it. My meds and doctors? Maybe not.


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## Chris Curl (Feb 13, 2012)

I was at the 7-Eleven earlier and looked for those NOS drinks specifically to see the caps, but alas all they carry is the cans, not bottles, so no go on seeing the caps.


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## Chris Curl (Feb 13, 2012)

they all sat for about 20 hours to dry/cure. here are my results:

- the glue/sawdust mixture was not at all strong. then again, it was not completely dry either, but even the dry parts were spongy. i didn't think this would be good

- the "amazing goop" was a little better. but it was also sort of spongy and did not stock to the plastic. pretty much as expected.

- i expected the epoxy to fare better, and it did, but when i tried to get the bolt out of the t-nut, the hardened epoxy did not stick well enough to the plastic and came out.

so they were all failures.

today i got some of the 3M/Bondo fiberglass resin and made a few little jigs to support the bolt that is in the t-nut. i filled the caps with resin(about an ounce), put in 10 drops of hardener, stirred it around, and lowered the t-nut into the resin. it is suspended about 1/16" from the bottom of the cap. i made 2. they are curing now. the instructions say the curing time is 2 hours.


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## Jack Wilson (Mar 14, 2010)

Well Chris, it looks like I'll soon be asking BJ AND you questions about this homemade knob business!


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## Chris Curl (Feb 13, 2012)

bob, question for you:

i'm trying to make a female knob, and when i went to back the bolt out, it was glued in the t-nut tight enough that the hardened resin came out of the cap before the bolt would turn in the t-nut.

what is your trick to getting the bolt out?

i have another one hardening currently, but on this one, i put some vaseline on the threads of the bolt first. with luck, that will make it come out more easily.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Chris

No trick to it, but some of the caps have a insert in them that you may want to remove for the female type 

But the Vaseline/grease/candle wax/WD40 will work also for the female type knobs... 


http://www.routerforums.com/project-plans-how/30687-ez-dovetail-jig.html

===



Chris Curl said:


> bob, question for you:
> 
> i'm trying to make a female knob, and when i went to back the bolt out, it was glued in the t-nut tight enough that the hardened resin came out of the cap before the bolt would turn in the t-nut.
> 
> ...


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## Chris Curl (Feb 13, 2012)

ok, i think i still have a problem with my process. the resin does not seem to harden completely. i must be either not mixing it well enough, or not using enough hardener.

the good news though is that the bolt with the vaseline on it came out without drama

i measured the volume of the cap by using 2 oz of water in a measuring cup, and it filled 4 of the cups, so that means that a capful is about 1/2 oz.

i used 10 drops of hardener, which is supposed to be enough for 1 oz, so i must not be mixing it thoroughly enough. 

for the 3 i have made so far, i put the resin in the cap and then the drops, and then i took a popsicle stick and sitrred it for about 30 seconds. that must not get the hardener distributed into the corners of the cap.

my next try will be to mix it in a separate cup and pour the mixed resin into the cap. maybe that will be the ticket. i'll also put a tiny bit of vaseline on the threads.


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## Chris Curl (Feb 13, 2012)

last update for tonight ...

for me, mixing it outside of the cap combined with putting a little vaseline on the threads is the key.

this time, in 10-15 minutes, it got really hot and it is hardening more uniformly.

and the bolt came right out.

now i need to make a better jig that ensures that the bolt is centered in the cap


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## mc73 (May 17, 2010)

MAFoElffen said:


> Don't say. No. I'm sorry, I have to say it... I am painfully modest and don't like to talk about myself, but to keep this impersonal and trying not to be offensive or for you to take it the wrong way... I'll talk about myself and my experiences with that.
> 
> I am a Master Carpenter, at least that's what I ended up working as after many years in the trade. My clients also paid "me" well for the quality and craftsmanship of my work. Custom home's between $500 thousand to $10 million... and still- affordable remodels for the average Joe.
> 
> ...


Excellent said Sir.

Michael


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## Noob (Apr 18, 2009)

There's more than one way to skin a cap (see attached PDF)


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## Chris Curl (Feb 13, 2012)

thanks, paulo. i was thinking about trying a few like that too. the only thing is that the inside diameter of the knobs is an in between size, so i'd have to either settle for one that is a little too small, or sand down one from the next size up to get it to fit.


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## Chris Curl (Feb 13, 2012)

another option ... i did a few more with wooden inserts and a couple of different adhesives

the big one and the purple one are glued with gorilla glue; the others with fiberglass resin.

the jury is out on the gorilla glue. it seems to be holding pretty well, but i'm not confident about it at this time.

fwiw, the orange cap is from a gatorade bottle, the small white ones are from large juice jugs, and the large white cap is from a jar of apple sauce.

bored yet? i know ... get a life chris, i'm pitiful


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## Chris Curl (Feb 13, 2012)

Now I find myself looking at the tops of the bottles when deciding on drinks. 

Those NOS energy drinks are more expensive than I like, and I'm more of a coffee drinker. So as great as the tops are, they are not for me.

I eat breakfast at work (oatmeal), and OJ is a part of that, so when buying my OJ, I might as well pick the bottles with good caps for re-using.


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

Chris Curl said:


> Now I find myself looking at the tops of the bottles when deciding on drinks.
> 
> Those NOS energy drinks are more expensive than I like, and I'm more of a coffee drinker. So as great as the tops are, they are not for me.
> 
> I eat breakfast at work (oatmeal), and OJ is a part of that, so when buying my OJ, I might as well pick the bottles with good caps for re-using.


Let's all blame BJ......(just kidding)...

I have also started a collection of milk bottle lids....:yes4:


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hey,,,, hahahahahahahaha

Waste not want not thing,,,,,keeps the plastic out of the dump,,,they say the plastic in the dumps will be around in a 1000 years or longer,,just my SMALL way to help it out.. LOL,,,, I can see it now once all the oil is gone in a 1000 years they will be digging the plastic out...and reusing it for routers, etc. LOL

===



jw2170 said:


> Let's all blame BJ......(just kidding)...
> 
> I have also started a collection of milk bottle lids....:yes4:


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## john880 (Aug 18, 2010)

This was/is a good & intresting thread to follow,,,,,,,,,,thanks guys.


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