# TS Kickback Comparison



## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

I just finshed listening to FWW's Podcast #41 (http://ec.libsyn.com/p/6/6/4/66486a...1ce3dae902ea1d01cf8e30d6cf5f0516&c_id=6167091) One of the subjects was on a new segment, "Ask a Rocket Scientist"... who was describing the forces involved in a TS kickback and why you would want to adjust body position accordingly..

He said the calculated speed of a TS blade at the rim (10" blade) is moving over 100 miles an hour, comparable to the wind speed of a Category 2 Hurricane. He then mentioned imagining the Objects moved and destructive forces caused by those in a Category 2 Hurricane... (It also mentioned preventing that with a riving knife or splitter)

I think that was a good comparison that brought across an easily imagined mental picture of those forces.

--- I understand that "that segment" was there as a direct result to answer a comment / question to one of their articles, but... Reports and statistics I've read say that contact from kickback is not the top reported accident on Table Saws --> Finger contact with the blade is reported as the top accident on a Table Saw.

I understand that some of those finger contact accidents might have been caused from the result of a kickback, as the loss of control of the workpiece may have drawn the fingers into the blade... I agree that the kickback risk is there...

So my question- As media goes, writing an article on TS kickback and contact from flying objects seems certainly more dramatic than blade contact... Is this why kickback is written about more often in the media (woodworking magazines)?

I just think that portrayal is an incomplete picture.

Some of that "Rest of the Story" (besides riving knives & splitters reducing the risk of kickback and body position adjusted in case of a kickback...) lends to having push sticks readily available in close proximity to the table saw and the user so they can use them (i mount magnets to the handles of mine so I can position mine close) and user education to ingrain the user to use push sticks when needed (so they think to use them). This is also an argument for those using the Gripper(TM) branded and styled push device...

Thoughts?


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Hey, Mike; seems like in either accident scenario, lack of a blade guard with anti-kickback pawls would be the likely major issue(?).
Sure, there are times when the guard is not possible, but that's when the operator needs to be on highest alert and using every possible level of protection. 
When you lose all fear of the TS, plan on giving up piano...


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

I've seen a little in FWW about blade contact but it is usually in context with them promoting some tool like Sawstop, Grripper, add-on splitters, etc. I'm like you in that I don't consider kickback as big a problem as saw contact, and blade contact injury is usually far more severe than kickback injury. Kickback is usually caused by not holding the piece tight against the table, or from timber bound wood, which you can feel tighten against the blade if you are paying attention, or from trapping short pieces against the fence which is just plain stupid. That last one is probably also responsible for some of the blade contact injuries.

All of the blade contact injuries can probably be prevented by using hold downs and pusher sticks or a tool like the Grripper. Maybe all saw manufacturers should get together and produce a safety video that comes free with the saw that shows all the safe and unsafe ways to use a saw. Maybe if One World Technologies (Ryobi) had done that they wouldn't have been sued for the worker that cut some fingers off.


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

That's a visual!!! (LOL)

"Videos on how not to..." I see instead of using Crash-Test-Dummy's", using finger-test-dummys and kickback-backstop-dummy's along the flavor of "Myth Busters" and "Bill Nye The Science Guy"... Why not, they do instructional DVD's for jigs right?


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## Semipro (Mar 22, 2013)

Can not agree more but read follow and understand your tools, every tool I have bought first page of instructions Read safety instructions 
TAKE RESONSIBLITY FOR YOUR OWN ACTIONS


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Semipro said:


> Can not agree more but read follow and understand your tools, every tool I have bought first page of instructions Read safety instructions
> TAKE RESONSIBLITY FOR YOUR OWN ACTIONS


+1 on that. I think it was Porter Cable who used to start their Operating Guides with (and many others used the same verbiage): 


> "_It must be understood by the operator that common sense and caution are factors which cannot be built into this product, but must be supplied by the operator._"


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

Sell the sizzle, the steak be damned. 

There would be alot of out of work contributing editors out there if they just stuck with 
selling the steak..


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

DaninVan said:


> Hey, Mike; seems like in either accident scenario, lack of a blade guard with anti-kickback pawls would be the likely major issue(?).


Possibly. However, I do not use either. BUT, when I make a saw sled, I make very sure that I make it so neither of my hands can get near the blade, and the blade is under cover - like a piece of 2X4 front to back; let's put it this way, my saw sleds are overkill as far as keeping my fingers safe. And when I use push sticks, I make them so I cannot get my fingers near the blade; got a Gripper now, so use that over push sticks a lot now. I value my body parts a lot, so make very sure I keep them away from the whirly parts.

Not had a kickback, but always stand well to the side of the blade, just in case.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Very early on had a kickback piece of ply hit me in the stomach, hurt like heck and took about 6 months to really heal. Use a GrRipper all the time now and stand more to the side with the paddle off switch where I can hit it with my body. New saw has riving knife and a decent blade guard with pawls. Also do most of my cross cuts on a sled, much safer. Biggest safety device, however, is taking time to work out mentally exactly how i'm going to make the cut. I also cannot bring myself to put an unprotected hand closer than about 6 inches from a spinning blade without that GrRipper. Getting a second one for Christmas, thanks honey.


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

DesertRatTom said:


> Also do most of my cross cuts on a sled, much safer. Biggest safety device, however, is taking time to work out mentally exactly how i'm going to make the cut.


I should have mentioned, with that 2X4 over the blade, I would actually have to stick my fingers under the 2X4 to even come close to the blade. Plus, I have a stop on the front, and back, of my sleds, so the sled can never travel far enough in either direction far enough to let the blade cut thru, and be in the open. 

And, very true, thinking is the big thing.


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## IC31 (Nov 16, 2012)

Ahhhhh the good ol' kick back syndrome. Since I started being more careful with using push devices, haven't had one. I did have 2 significant ones though. My shop door has a patch to prove that my TS can throw a piece of wood a good distance and still get full penetration in a slab door. Then there was that "I'm in hurry" kick back about 10 years ago that really hurt - a lot. I never knew a belly bruise could have so many different colors even after that piece of wood had lost a bunch of energy breaking off a fingernail then shoving that broken piece under the unbroken part. That's when I learned more about and using those push devices. As far as a blade shield and anti kickback teeth, the one supplied with my saw was really the cause of the first kick back in that the piece of wood jammed and my subsequent attempt to release it caused it to get thrown. I haven't used a guard since. I know, shame on me, but my guess is that more folks don't use them then actually do, either relying on Grrripers or similar, or if not, their luck simply because so many are. IMHO, pure useless junk. Cross cuts on anything up to about 12" are usually done with my radial arm saw which is never turned that 90* and used to rip, a frightening process.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

"As far as a blade shield and anti kickback teeth, the one supplied with my saw was really the cause of the first kick back in that the piece of wood jammed and my subsequent attempt to release it caused it to get thrown."
-Dave

You tried to undo the jam with the saw _running_?! Yikes!


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## IC31 (Nov 16, 2012)

DaninVan said:


> "As far as a blade shield and anti kickback teeth, the one supplied with my saw was really the cause of the first kick back in that the piece of wood jammed and my subsequent attempt to release it caused it to get thrown."
> -Dave
> 
> You tried to undo the jam with the saw _running_?! Yikes!


Of course - young and dumb!! 
Weren't you unbreakable way back then?:sarcastic::sarcastic:


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

IC31 said:


> Of course - young and dumb!!
> Weren't you unbreakable way back then?:sarcastic::sarcastic:


Never that unbreakable.


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## hankh (Jun 25, 2013)

*front and back stops on a sled*



JOAT said:


> I should have mentioned, with that 2X4 over the blade, I would actually have to stick my fingers under the 2X4 to even come close to the blade. Plus, I have a stop on the front, and back, of my sleds, so the sled can never travel far enough in either direction far enough to let the blade cut thru, and be in the open.
> 
> And, very true, thinking is the big thing.


I just saw this thread - after a stupid, but fortunately painless kickback incident (I stood off to the side). Can you describe or upload pictures of the front and back stops on your sled? I have a 2 x 4 to keep my hands away from the blade line, but the idea of stops sounds like a good addition. thanks.


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