# Question about saw blades.



## N'awlins77 (Feb 25, 2011)

*Up until now, I've had the saw blades that came with both my chop-saw and my table saw. Both general use blades. But I'd like to know, from my new found woodworking friends, what would you recommend, blade wise, for my two saws. The chop-saw I would be cutting cabinet face frame lumber to length, and on the table saw, I would be cutting cabinet grade plywood. 

The blade that came with the chop-saw (Ridgid) did a pretty good job, until I lent it to my son and he cut a bunch of laminate flooring on it, and now it chips the wood pretty bad. I have an uncle that can sharpen them, but I'm sure there are better blades to use for fine work like cabinet making. Any help would be appreciated!! :help:*


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## Marco (Feb 21, 2009)

Probably both blades are combo blades and with a good sharpening will handle your needs quite well..... now for tear out especially with plywood I would look at a quality 60 tooth thin kerf blade like Diablo's .Diablo 10" x 60" Atb Fine Finishing # D1060X by Freud .

There are guys on here who cut a lot of plywood who can tell you exactly what you need. If money is not a worry, buying a finishing blade for both saws and sharpening your current blades would be the way I would go. I would throw on my good blades for specific cuts and use my general purpose blades for everything else.

Here's a link all about saw blades Saw Blades 101 - Rockler Woodworking and Hardware and a link on saw blade selection Saw Blade Selection Guide - Rockler Woodworking and Hardware


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## jschaben (Jun 21, 2009)

N'awlins77 said:


> *Up until now, I've had the saw blades that came with both my chop-saw and my table saw. Both general use blades. But I'd like to know, from my new found woodworking friends, what would you recommend, blade wise, for my two saws. The chop-saw I would be cutting cabinet face frame lumber to length, and on the table saw, I would be cutting cabinet grade plywood. The blade that came with the chop-saw (Ridgid) did a pretty good job, until I lent it to my son and he cut a bunch of laminate flooring on it, and now it chips the wood pretty bad. I have an uncle that can sharpen them, but I'm sure there are better blades to use for fine work like cabinet making. Any help would be appreciated!! :help:*


 Hi Lee - at least ya got the blades back You will probably want a good combination blade for the table saw and a good cross cut for the miter. I'm with Jim for leaving the OEM stuff on for general use and put the good ones in for special projects. The last few years I've become a fan of Freud blades, high quality and affordable. I've found the cut quality/material charts they publish for each of their blades to be a pretty fair indication of what you will get. I've spent a lot of time on this site researching their products: Freud Tools - Industrial Blades You wont find any of the blades Home Depot carries on there. Home Depot has enough economic clout to have their own line of blades, or, at least numbers. No way I know of to find the actual specs (hook angle, bevel, tooth geometry... etc) of the Home Depot blades. At this point, I think I better apologize to the membership for the long post as I have no way of converting this to an acceptable format for an attachment, which it really should be. This is a pretty decent explanation of the various terms used to describe the different attributes of saw blades: 

Tooth count is one of the more important considerations of a saw blade. Number of teeth should be based on the intended application along with the other design parameters of the blade. If all other parameters are equal, more teeth will equate to a cleaner cut, but it’s not as simple as that. There are several other factors that influence cutting performance in addition to tooth count, and more teeth is not always better. More teeth also means more resistance to the saw, slower feed rates, more friction & heat, and a higher chance of burning. Fewer teeth equates to a faster more efficient cut, but typically also means a rougher cut. Depending on thickness, it’s recommended to have 5 to 7 teeth in the material for crosscutting and finish cuts in hard wood, and 3 to 5 teeth for ripping operations. Depending on blade diameter, it’s common to see between 10 and 30 teeth on a specialized ripping blade, and 60 to 100 teeth for crosscut blades and blades used for plywood, veneers, melamine. laminates, and other sheet goods. Note that more teeth cost more to make, more to buy, and more to sharpen when the time comes, but more teeth also tend to hold an edge longer because they share the work load. However, more teeth will not hold an edge longer if overheated frequently from use in an application not intended for a high tooth blade.

Side Clearance:
The side clearance is another important feature that is essentially the amount of overhang a tooth has relative to the blade’s body. The tangential and radial side clearance angles are part the geometry of the sides of the teeth. These features all combine to determine how much “polish” or “burnishing” characteristics the teeth will contribute to the edge of the wood. Tight side clearances and tight angles mean that more tooth makes contact with the edge of the cut, and thus gives a more polished look. The same characteristic can also increase burning if the feed rate slows too much, and/or if the wood is naturally more prone to burning.

Gullet:
A gullet is the trough between the teeth. A larger gullet allows for more efficient chip removal, which is one of the reasons that a blade with fewer teeth will cut faster…there’s simply more gullet space on a lower tooth count blade. Ripping operations have larger chip size than crosscutting operations, which makes lower tooth count blades more conducive to ripping operations. Crosscutting operations tend to have smaller chip sizes, so a dedicated crosscut blade can have more teeth around the perimeter of the blade, which allows for a cleaner cut.

Hook Angle:
Hook angle (or rake) is the amount of forward or backward lean of the teeth on a blade. The hook angle can range from roughly -7° to as much as + 22°. The steeper the hook angle, the more aggressive and faster the feed rate will be. A steep, or positive hook angle, will have more pull on the material than a low or negative hook blade, which is a feature well suited for ripping operations on a table saw. A low to negative hook blade is well suited for use on a sliding compound miter saw (SCMS) or radial arm saw (RAS) to prevent “climb” or self feeding of the material, and is highly recommended when cutting metals on any type of saw. The steeper hook angles will feed faster but can also increase tear out characteristics at the exit of the cut. A lower hook angle will have less tear out, but will require more feed pressure and may have a higher tendency for burning to occur if the saw bogs down.

Anti-vibration slots:
Laser cut anti-vibration slots help channel heat buildup during the cutting process, allowing the blade to expand and contract without distorting and destroying the tension of blade’s body. Ultimately, they help the blade run true with low noise and vibration for a cleaner cut. Filling the slots with silicone can further reduce noise. Some blades will have copper silencers in the “keyhole” of the slot.

Tooth Grinds:
ATB – Alternate Top Bevel (ATB) is a very versatile grind that features a bevel across the top of the tooth that angles from the outside in, alternating between left side and right side. The angle of the bevel can vary from about 10° to approximately 20°. The versatility of the ATB grind makes it a very common grind on many types of blades, especially woodworking blades. The bevel helps reduce tear out on cross grain and plywood cuts, is reasonably durable, and can still be fairly efficient at ripping with the grain. Essentially the steeper the bevel angle, the less tear out the teeth will cause, but also becomes increasing less efficient at ripping as the bevel increases. The ATB grind is very well suited in a configuration as a higher tooth count dedicated crosscut blade, and as a versatile medium tooth count general purpose blade.

Hi-ATB – Teeth with a top bevel of roughly 25° or higher are commonly referred to as "High Alternate Top Bevel" grinds. Hi-ATB grinds are a variation of the ATB grind, and have the lowest tear out characteristics of any other grind. They’re extremely well suited for ultra clean cuts in plywood, laminates, melamine, veneers, and ultra fine crosscuts in hardwood. The sharp points of the higher bevels give up some durability and some ripping efficiency compared to some grinds, but are still capable of good ripping efficiency when combined with a lower tooth count and positive hook angle.

ATB/R – The ATB/R grind is a combination of two different tooth grinds in one blade. It typically features groupings of five teeth that consist of four ATB ground teeth and one flat top “raker” tooth with large gullets between the groupings. Common configurations are found in a 10” blade with 50 teeth and a moderately steep hook angle of 10° to 15°. The ATB/R combination grind is well suited for both ripping and crosscuts, and general purpose woodworking applications on a table saw or compound miter saw.

FTG – Flat top teeth are used on blades intended primarily for ripping wood with the grain. A flat top grind (FTG) is very efficient at removing large chips from the kerf, and is a very durable grind that tends to have very good edge life. A flat top grind is the only grind that will leave a truly flat bottom kerf, which also makes it a good choice for cutting grooves and splines. The FTG is commonly found on ripping blades with a steep positive hook angle and lower tooth count, typically 10 to 30 teeth.


TCG – The triple chip grind (TCG) also combines two different tooth grinds in one blade – a flat top grind and a trapezoidal grind, which is essentially a flat top tooth with chamfered top. The TCG alternates between a flat top “raker” and a trapezoidal tooth which protrudes slightly higher than the raker tooth. The TCG is extremely durable, and exhibits low chip out characteristics in brittle materials, which makes it well suited for cutting metals, laminate flooring, very hard woods, abrasive materials like MDF and teak, and sheet goods like melamine. Its durability also lends itself to high volume applications where edge life is important.

Hope this helps some


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## N'awlins77 (Feb 25, 2011)

*Wow, thanks both Jim and John! Both replies will be very helpful!*


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## papawd (Jan 5, 2011)

Hello Nawlins , I used to live in River Ridge ..A good place to find blades would be PMC Machinery in Hammond ...


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## crquack (Oct 10, 2008)

I copied and pasted John's excellent treatise on saw blades into a document and saved it. Should it not be pinned somewhere? It is a great reference.


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## LinuxRandal (Mar 11, 2011)

What size miter saw? Budget?

I have a Freud LU85r0xx (xx blade size, 10, 12, etc), on my miter saw, because I found them at a bargain (damaged freight store). My neighbor, buys only blades from Home Depot or Lowe's, due to one project may be fine woodworking (kitchen cabinets, or trim) and the next building materials. The Diablo that compares is the D1080x. I would recommend an 80 tooth on a miter saw, and a 60 tooth on a slider. Blades depend on budget, and if you plan on resharpening them. (industrial verses Diablo)

My table saw has a never used Freud Fusion, thin kerf 40 tooth (also have a regular kerf, but thin kerf is prefered). I picked these up on bargains, but I find myself using only my EZ stuff, and leaving the miter saw for angles or crown molding.


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## jschaben (Jun 21, 2009)

LinuxRandal said:


> What size miter saw? Budget? I have a Freud LU85r0xx (xx blade size, 10, 12, etc), on my miter saw, because I found them at a bargain (damaged freight store). My neighbor, buys only blades from Home Depot or Lowe's, due to one project may be fine woodworking (kitchen cabinets, or trim) and the next building materials. The Diablo that compares is the D1080x. I would recommend an 80 tooth on a miter saw, and a 60 tooth on a slider. Blades depend on budget, and if you plan on resharpening them. (industrial verses Diablo) My table saw has a never used Freud Fusion, thin kerf 40 tooth (also have a regular kerf, but thin kerf is prefered). I picked these up on bargains, but I find myself using only my EZ stuff, and leaving the miter saw for angles or crown molding.


Hi Randall - where did you find the comparison between the Freud designations and the Home Depot designations? I looked very hard at the D1080X but couldn't find the specs. I opted for the LU79 because I do some laminate as well.


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## Ralph Barker (Dec 15, 2008)

I tried using a Freud blade once, but it kept asking me to lay down on the couch and talk about my mother. I switched to Forrest blades, and they just ask, "What can I cleanly cut for you today." 

http://www.forrestblades.com/

John - nice explanation of the various blade specs.


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## Gene Howe (Jul 10, 2007)

Here is where I buy mine. Tenryu America, Inc. - Tenryu Website Products page
Just use Johns excellent selection suggestions and find the one for your applications. 
I can't say enough good things about these blades. I have one or two for each of my saws, including my Skils that I use to break down sheet goods.


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## N'awlins77 (Feb 25, 2011)

*Yep Warren, I'm still looking forward to making it across the lake to check that place out. 

Randal, they are both 10" (miter and table). And looking mid range. Don't want to pay a fortune, but also don't want to buy cheap stuff! 

And Ralph, you almost made me swallow my toothpick! Funny stuff!!*


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## jcr3 (Mar 12, 2011)

I agree with Ralph and Gene. I have used Freud, Forrest, and Tenryu. The Freud is very good (and reasonably priced), the Forrest and Tenryu are outstanding. I have both 10" and 12" sizes. There is not much that is more frustrating than to see tearout on a crosscut. Have two blades minumum, one sharpened and ready to go, and the other on the saw.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

N'awlins, 
John Schaben's explanation is excellent, but I would add a bit to it. Also important are saw plate thickness (or stability) and quality of tooth grind. I have an 18 tooth Freud LM71M010 Industrial that is advertised as "glue line capable in deep cuts". It is very close and if I were to spend a little time tweaking my saw I would say that it will deliver as advertised. The biggest part of that is because it has a thick plate and does not wobble under load. It cuts very cleanly in almost any material although I don't trust it in melamine. It also takes a full 1/8" cut.
I bought a Delta (not sure who actually made it) chopsaw blade and it did okay on straight cuts but wobbled on mitre cuts. A pair of blade stabilizers fixed that. The blade stabilizers also helped with thin rim blades on the table saw, like the Freud Diablo.
With all that said, according to a woodworking friend of mine, and every blade comparison test I've read, Ralph is correct. Forrest blades are the best money can buy. You just need to be prepared to spend more cause they ain't cheap.


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## LinuxRandal (Mar 11, 2011)

jschaben said:


> Hi Randall - where did you find the comparison between the Freud designations and the designations? I looked very hard at the D1080X but couldn't find the specs. I opted for the LU79 because I do some laminate as well.



Freud's site (or a sheet they have given out at the woodworking shows). I also have a Forrest blade, but that tends to run higher, and some places have sales on Freud blades. However I will say from everything I have heard, Ridge Carbide is comparable to Forrest.

Years ago, I think there was more to Freud's site. They had the industrial line, the Avanti line, and the Diablo line.


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## jschaben (Jun 21, 2009)

LinuxRandal said:


> Freud's site (or a sheet they have given out at the woodworking shows). I also have a Forrest blade, but that tends to run higher, and some places have sales on Freud blades. However I will say from everything I have heard, Ridge Carbide is comparable to Forrest.
> 
> Years ago, I think there was more to Freud's site. They had the industrial line, the Avanti line, and the Diablo line.


Hi Randall - I haven't been able to track down any of Home Depots numbers on the Freud or the Apex(?) site but there should be some somewhere. 
I tried comparing Tenneyu (sp) but got kinda confused on their site. 
Forrest was out of my budget. I ended up with a Freud Fusion on the table and the LU79 on the SCMS for about the same money as a WW2. I'm happy


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## LinuxRandal (Mar 11, 2011)

John, I am not sure what Home Depot numbers your talking about? The only Home Depot specific numbers that I am aware of, are SKU's (their pricing numbers), otherwise the blades still use the Diablo numbers (D, for Diablo, then blade size, then tooth count, in the D1080 example).

Glad you found blades your happy with, now quit reading and go have some fun in the shop. LOL


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## boogalee (Nov 24, 2010)

Lee

PM me if you would like to try a Forrest woodworker II.

Al


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## N'awlins77 (Feb 25, 2011)

boogalee said:


> Lee
> 
> PM me if you would like to try a Forrest woodworker II.
> 
> Al


Thanks Al, but after looking at some prices of those blades, no way! LOL Way out of my league, at this point. Nothing I'm building requires a blade that cost almost as much as my saw!! :blink:

Thanks though!!


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## N'awlins77 (Feb 25, 2011)

*Thanks for all the help everyone! I went out and got the .Diablo 10" x 60" Atb Fine Finishing by Freud, that Jim (Marco) recommended. It was 39.99 at my local Home Depot. 

Now, where is the "shop blunders" thread? Oh well, I'll just post it here for all to chuckle to! Some how, I mean I know which way a tablesaw rotates, and which way the blade is suppose to rotate. I might be new to using a router table, but not a table saw!! But some how I ended up putting the blade on backwards. I start my test cut and it's like I really had to shove the wood through to make it cut. I hear my saw boging down, and I'm about to set the wood on fire, smoke pillowing out everywhere's. And this is just on about a 4 inch cut! So I stop the saw, and in the corner of my eye, while opening a window to let the smoke out, I see the new bright arrow on the blade, going the wrong way as the blade stops. My wifes right out my shop weeding a little flower garden on the side of my shop, and she comes running in and asking if I started a fire. I told her, not yet, but close!! Well, none the less, I turned the blade around and it worked like a charm. No chipping. Thank goodness a wood saw is more forgiving at these times of dumbfoundness, then cutting metal with a blade or bit going backwards. Do that on an endmill for just a couple of seconds, and that endmill is garbage or on the way to the sharpeners.*


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

N'awlins77 said:


> *Thanks for all the help everyone! I went out and got the .Diablo 10" x 60" Atb Fine Finishing by Freud, that Jim (Marco) recommended. It was 39.99 at my local Home Depot.
> 
> Now, where is the "shop blunders" thread? Oh well, I'll just post it here for all to chuckle to! Some how, I mean I know which way a tablesaw rotates, and which way the blade is suppose to rotate. I might be new to using a router table, but not a table saw!! But some how I ended up putting the blade on backwards. I start my test cut and it's like I really had to shove the wood through to make it cut. I hear my saw boging down, and I'm about to set the wood on fire, smoke pillowing out everywhere's. And this is just on about a 4 inch cut! So I stop the saw, and in the corner of my eye, while opening a window to let the smoke out, I see the new bright arrow on the blade, going the wrong way as the blade stops. My wifes right out my shop weeding a little flower garden on the side of my shop, and she comes running in and asking if I started a fire. I told her, not yet, but close!! Well, none the less, I turned the blade around and it worked like a charm. No chipping. Thank goodness a wood saw is more forgiving at these times of dumbfoundness, then cutting metal with a blade or bit going backwards. Do that on an endmill for just a couple of seconds, and that endmill is garbage or on the way to the sharpeners.*


It happens. I did the same thing once with a slotting cutter on my router. Smoke was so thick I couldn't breathe.


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## Marco (Feb 21, 2009)

I would like to say I never put a blade on bass ackwards....... yep I sure would! 

BTW a tip for cutting multiple cuts of vinyl siding on a miter saw is to put the blade on backwards to avoid chipping................ plus if I can remember to use it the next time, a great excuse to use when you put a blade on backwards!


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## N'awlins77 (Feb 25, 2011)

Marco said:


> I would like to say I never put a blade on bass ackwards....... yep I sure would!
> 
> BTW a tip for cutting multiple cuts of vinyl siding on a miter saw is to put the blade on backwards to avoid chipping................ plus if I can remember to use it the next time, a great excuse to use when you put a blade on backwards!


*LOL, good one!!* :lol:


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