# MLCS 7733 Edge banding strong enough?



## Txt8888 (Dec 26, 2014)

I am wondering if I use MLCS 7733 to edge all around the plywood where edge piece maybe about 2" (or wider) be strong enough for book shelves type of project?

See the attached picture (not to scale) for reference.

Many thanks in advance!


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Hey, Tim; the major advantage is that aligning the edge with the shelf is simplified for glueing (plus strength, obviously).
My usual treatment is to make the front and sometimes back lip/edge taller than (hanging below the shelf, not above it) the shelf...the extra ht. giving additional stiffness to a plywood shelf. But with that said, I've been giving serious thought to doing as you're suggesting. I'm getting tired of the glue-up alignment issue without a register point!


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

splines gentelmen...
take the KISS/MISS approach....


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

By the way, the alignment T&G doesn't need to be that massive.._." 2" or more"_ That's a Hell of a shelf edge!
I could park a brewski on that... 

Lee Valley Tools - Important Announcement
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XDgH2IlC5w


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Stick; I agree, but that's not practical for narrow edging.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

DaninVan said:


> Stick; I agree, but that's not practical for narrow edging.


for ½" thick and thicker...
it certainly is...


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

In my opinion, it would have to be really narrow Dan like a 1/4". At 1/2" you're good to go. There's a lot of machining in using the suggested bit where a slot cutter or saw blade is quick and easy (and cheaper).


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> In my opinion, it would have to be really narrow Dan like a 1/4". At 1/2" you're good to go. There's a lot of machining in using the suggested bit where a slot cutter or saw blade is quick and easy (and cheaper).


refresher attachment in order???


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

OK, I surrender. That's a very helpful piece(s) of info Stick and Chuck.
I'd actually been thinking about it after I posted that last comment (Ok 2nd to last...picky picky) and had come up with a couple of solutions.
I think if I edge routed my edging _then_ ripped it off the flat stock, I'd avoid having to deal with getting close to the whirly bits(?)...


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

DaninVan said:


> OK, I surrender. That's a very helpful piece(s) of info Stick and Chuck.
> I'd actually been thinking about it after I posted that last comment (Ok 2nd to last...picky picky) and had come up with a couple of solutions.
> I think if I* edge routed my edging then ripped it off the flat stock, I'd avoid having to deal with getting close to the whirly bits*(?)...


that's how ya do it...
or router table and long pieces w/ vertical and horizontal feather boards... push/feed till you can pull the balance of the baning through...
I also believe splineing is stronger than that banding bit...

that edge banding bits tends to tear splinters out/off of the ply's veneer so when the banding is installed you have another issue to deal with...


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Stick: Lets see if I have this straight. You cut, say, a quarter inch groove on the edge of the plywood shelf, then cut a similar groove in the banding piece. You then cut the spline, a piece of material the thickness of the grooves, and presumably the width of the total depth of the two grooves. Finally, you rip the banding piece to the width desired (wider for more strength), then glue the spline in place on both pieces and clamp. Is that correct?

I see a real advantage in simplicity here if that is correct. You cut both grooves with the top side to the fence on a table saw or face down on the router table so the top of the 2 pieces winds up matching exactly. The bottom of the edge may not match exactly due to thickness differences between shelf and edging material, but that does not really amount to a problem.

Using the edging bit shown seems to me to have the problem of getting the alignment just right, whereas the spline aligns easily.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

DesertRatTom said:


> Stick: Lets see if I have this straight. You cut, say, a quarter inch groove on the edge of the plywood shelf, then cut a similar groove in the banding piece. You then cut the spline, a piece of material the thickness of the grooves, and presumably the width of the total depth of the two grooves. Finally, you rip the banding piece to the width desired (wider for more strength), then glue the spline in place on both pieces and clamp. Is that correct?
> 
> I see a real advantage in simplicity here if that is correct. You cut both grooves with the top side to the fence on a table saw or face down on the router table so the top of the 2 pieces winds up matching exactly. The bottom of the edge may not match exactly due to thickness differences between shelf and edging material, but that does not really amount to a problem.
> 
> Using the edging bit shown seems to me to have the problem of getting the alignment just right, whereas the spline aligns easily.


correct...

*notes..*
slots on the TS don't seem to come out as well as w/ a router... wavers happen...
winged slot cutters do the best job of making the slot/dado...
there is a wide range of cutters and bearings for width/depth control...
I have a dedicated D handle w/arbor just for this job...
the more cutters to a wing the sweeter things get...
clamping usually doesn't need to be anything more than tape...
light gage pins is good way too
for hard clamping face clamps work the best... 
the edging bit may tear the veneer on the ply's face causing more issues besides alignment...

*splines...*
I like oak for splines... strong and very stable...
long grain is the weakest (not that are truly weak) and cross grain is the strongest in shear... the opposite for in compression or tension... (loaded shelf)....
the spline needs to be at least 1/16 to 3/32" less than the total depths of the matching dadoes to allow for glue...
splines can be easily done blind...
free hand slotting is very doable...
break/chamfer all edges before install... a hard 80/100 grit sanding block is all that is needed...

next time you glue up a panel... spline it....
your overall work to getting things right is less...


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

You are possibly unaware that commercial work is generally done using PUR (heat-set PU) glue or UF glue and plain butt joints and works very well. With proper clamping and good quality glue the same results can be achieved

Regrds 

Phil


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

That's a good pdf Stick. We might convert a few people yet.

Phil I can't disagree with what you said but we aren't comparing apples to apples here. The joints you are talking about are made with high priced equipment that literally does a perfect job. When the same boards are processed with average or cheap equipment by hand instead of with power feeder and the results aren't always as perfect. In those cases a spline can offer a little help and some peace of mind. The spline is an especially good joint for woodworkers with basic skills because there is very little to nothing to have to master in using it.


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## BenAtar (Nov 9, 2014)

Thank you for the so informative discourse guys, from a novice. Learning, learning, learning.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Phil P said:


> *You are possibly unaware that commercial work *is generally done using PUR (heat-set PU) glue or UF glue and plain butt joints and works very well. With proper clamping and good quality glue the same results can be achieved
> 
> Regrds
> 
> Phil


no... I'm not unaware...
what you are implying isn't practical for 99% of the members here... those/that type of systems/set ups requires $$$$, isn't practical and is all production oriented....

not many here do commercial level outputs/work nor use commercial grade formaldehyde-based glues like Phenol-formaldehyde (PF) or Urea-formaldehyde (UF) let alone RF-CG.... Its generally PVA or nothing.... (that's Titebond and ilk if you need to know)...

There are hobbyist here that have limited clamps... don't own a jointer or a glue line blade... heaven forbid they should have a thickness planer or sander...
We have folks here that don't even own a TS yet are still trying to accomplish...
so we try to help...
splineing is a plan "B" approach and a fix for some issues...

you haven't done much splineing have you???


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

DesertRatTom said:


> Stick: Lets see if I have this straight. You cut, say, a quarter inch groove on the edge of the plywood shelf, then cut a similar groove in the banding piece.
> The bottom of the edge may not match exactly due to thickness differences between shelf and edging material, but that does not really amount to a problem.


plot thickens time...
and real time strength...

if you slotted the edge of the ply and the face of the banding material.. ripped the banding from 1 to 1½" wide (your choice) and installed it so the banding is wider/taller than the ply is thick you'll accomplish several things...

lent strength to the shelf.. 
on shorter shelves you could use ½" ply or even thinner and you'll have anti-sag help while giving the appearance of a thicker shelf....
a face grained 1½'' tall band would be leagues stronger in application over a 1½" deep banding... 
really handy come 48 ± inch wide shelf...

*note...*
on really thin shelf material (3/8 and less) rebating to the face band is in order and not splineing...
the back side of the shelf needs banding for strength also if you use thin materials...

aesthetics..
a faced edge ban can be readily ornamented...
RO's...
carvings...
beading...
veining...
fluted...
inlayed...
laced..
astricaled...
and a mix there of...
you get the idea...


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> Phil I can't disagree with what you said but we aren't comparing apples to apples here. The joints you are talking about are made with high priced equipment that literally does a perfect job.


Hi Chuck

In a small to medium sized shop edge jointing is often done using little more than sash cramps, home-made cauls and glue (UF or possibly D4 PU) - I've done enough of it over the years to know. The key, as ever, is edge preparation which requires a jointer - either a machine or a hand plane (NOT a router because they just aren't accurate). Almost the only time I'd use splines or biscuits to fix an edge lipping would be if post processing, such as a deep moulding is called for on the lipping. For ordinary lipping 6 to 16mm (1/4 to 5/8in) proper and glueing will deliver a glue joint which is stronger than the glue on either side. Using thick lippings is just a waste of materials IMHO and can and does lead to issues of the joint probably telegraphing as the result of differential wood movement, normally taking some time (possibly years) to appear.



Stick486 said:


> not many here do commercial level outputs/work nor use commercial grade formaldehyde-based glues like Phenol-formaldehyde (PF) or Urea-formaldehyde (UF) let alone RF-CG.... Its generally PVA or nothing.... (that's Titebond and ilk if you need to know)..


You surprise me when you say that UF (urea formaldehyde) glue is unavaible, Stick, partly because I have a cousin in the USA who runs a 2-man shop which uses it a lot of the time. I know that D4 glues are available in the USA and that it will produce a strong joint _if the joint is tight to start with_



Stick486 said:


> There are hobbyist here that have limited clamps... don't own a jointer or a glue line blade... heaven forbid they should have a thickness planer or sander...


On an installation job, Stick, I carry only 4 G-clamps and long (sash-type) cramps I _make_ cheaply on the job from 2 x 1 softwood and screws, sometimes with folding wedges, which is what an carpenter would be expect to do simply because you can't carry a rack full of T-bars or sash cramps round with you. Cramping doesn't require massive pressures, which only starve the joint faces of glue, but it does require good mating surfaces. Even if you use splines you still need to cramp it all up, so I regard that argument as specious. 

As to the other stuff - if you can cut a straight line with a hand saw (or better a circular saw and a timber batten) - you can dress it with a hand plane, such as a jack plane or a jointer. It is actually pretty easy to learn this



Stick486 said:


> you haven't done much splineing have you???


Wrong! I've made table tops with deeply moulded edges in the past and splines or biscuits were required to get the strength _because the lippings were deep and wide_. If you go for thinner lippings, which are cheaper as well as environmentally more sound, you don't need the splines..... Simple!

Regards

Phil


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## Gaffboat (Mar 11, 2012)

This is a great discussion. Thanks for the PDF and further descriptions, Stick. I'm going to add splining to my repertoire.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

gaffboat said:


> this is a great discussion. Thanks for the pdf and further descriptions, stick. I'm going to add splining to my repertoire.


yur welcome...


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## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

Txt8888 said:


> I am wondering if I use MLCS 7733 to edge all around the plywood where edge piece maybe about 2" (or wider) be strong enough for book shelves type of project?
> 
> See the attached picture (not to scale) for reference.
> 
> Many thanks in advance!


Th edging will help some, but the key is thickness, not width. Even a solid wood shelf(no plywood) will sag depending on the length of the shelf and the weight applied.

Edge banding is pretty much just to cover the edge of the plywood... the shelving design must take into account the length and load of the shelves, else you will have issues no matter the width of the edge band! An edge band thicker than the shelf will help, if your design allows for it!


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Ben; you still following this?
This is a very simplified explanation of the vertical ht., vs horizontal thickness thing.
Take two thin planks, one is 2" tall (standing on its long edge), and the other is 12" tall...both the same length...say 12'long.
Put a brick under each of the ends. You now have two 'bridges' each 12' long.
The top and bottom of each is called a chord. if you apply the same weight to the centre of each bridge, the top chord will deform downwards and the bottom chord must also, the same amount (called deflection).
However on the 12" plank the bottom chord must in effect _stretch_ significantly as it's a much longer _arc_ than the top chord.
The deeper the separation between the two chords the stiffer the 'bridge' (less deflection).
In short, making the banding massively thick, front to back, doesn't help appreciably but making it taller is crucial.


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## Botelho007 (Sep 23, 2012)

*Strong & Sturdy Shelving — without sagging*

I mounted the shelves with information in this PDF.

http://www.woodsmith.com/files/issues/sample/sample-08-09.pdf


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## BenAtar (Nov 9, 2014)

*Taller beats thicker*



DaninVan said:


> Ben; you still following this?
> This is a very simplified explanation of the vertical ht., vs horizontal thickness thing.
> Take two thin planks, one is 2" tall (standing on its long edge), and the other is 12" tall...both the same length...say 12'long.
> Put a brick under each of the ends. You now have two 'bridges' each 12' long.
> ...


Dan,
Tks for the explanation, very kind. I never thought of sagging in terms of chords, but I get what your saying. To add stiffness, height beats width.
I must get round to replacing/repairing sagging shelves in a kitchen cabinet.....the shelves are 5/8" melamine, about 36" long and about 18" wide. There are foodstuffs stored on the shelves, the shelves are about 12 years old, the sagging is increasing over time :fie:
Ben


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Stick, Thanks for the information. I have a couple of projects I'm considering that could use that approach.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Ben; MDF is notorious for sagging! Plywood is much better, solid lumber is the stiffest.


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## PhilBa (Sep 25, 2014)

Since the discussion veered to strength, sagulator is your friend when you need to build a strong shelf.


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## BenAtar (Nov 9, 2014)

DaninVan said:


> Ben; MDF is notorious for sagging! Plywood is much better, solid lumber is the stiffest.


Tks Dan, I agree, it's actually chipboard (particleboard) coated with melamine, not mdf, but still not great. Installed by a contractor and widely used for kitchen cabinet shelving here.


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## BenAtar (Nov 9, 2014)

PhilBa said:


> Since the discussion veered to strength, sagulator is your friend when you need to build a strong shelf.


Sorry Phil, my newbie-ness is showing, I shouldn't have changed topic. Mea culpa.:sad:
Learning every day!


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## BenAtar (Nov 9, 2014)

PhilBa said:


> Since the discussion veered to strength, sagulator is your friend when you need to build a strong shelf.


Oh, and Tks for the sagulator link


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## PhilBa (Sep 25, 2014)

BenAtar said:


> Sorry Phil, my newbie-ness is showing, I shouldn't have changed topic. Mea culpa.:sad:
> Learning every day!


actually, based on the title of the thread, strength is very much on-topic.


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