# How To Price Building A Loftbed To Specific Plans



## tkleff (Feb 5, 2012)

Hi All, 

A friend-of-a-friend asked me to build one -- perhaps two -- twin size loftbeds for her kids. She has the plans she wants built, but she also wants modifications. 

*MY OVERALL MISSION AND FUTURE GOALS WITH WOODWORKING AND SKILLS DEVELOPMENT*

I'm nothing but a hobbyist -- and, on my best day, I'm a mere novice -- more typically I'm a beginner. My woodworking goals are modest: Build cool furniture and develop skills that may help my family renovate a future house we expect to buy in the next 1-3 years when we move to San Diego. Secondarily, if I could pay for the tools I'm buying through some meager income from selling a few pieces, I'd be thrilled. All that said, this is a part-time avocation (slightly above a hobby I suppose) -- I have a professional degree and I won't need to do this for income, just for its pleasure, but I'm happy to take the income. I suppose that's a freedom and a limitation all at once . 

*MY LOFTBED HISTORY -- I'VE BUILT ONE BEFORE AND IT TOOK LIKE 40 HOURS*

About three years ago I built the same loft bed (a queen instead of a king) using the same plans. (Indeed, it's part of what started me down this woodworking path). 

I really enjoyed it. I suspect it took me about 40 hours if I include everything (from buying the lumber, getting the lumber cut at home depot, drilling all the holes, assembly, renting a table saw, assembling it and then painting it (without primer or sanding).

*MY TIME AND MATERIALS ESTIMATE*

Since I've used the plans before, I know they are first rate. And, I'm confident I can build a sturdy bed that will have high function. There's a very accurate materials list. The materials without painting or staining will cost $142.90; with painting or staining roughly $230. 

I figure this time around I may be able to build this loft bed in 20-30 hours -- at least that's my best estimate. Even if I sought $10/hour at 20 hours, that would be an additional $200; so, roughly $350; if I figured 30 hours at $10/hour, that would be about $450. And, of course, this includes no waste, mistakes, overages, etc. -- thus, I'm tempted to just quote a price of $500 and go from there. 

Is there any rule of thumb in this arena (like, materials x2 or something?)

*THE WRINKLE: THE FRIEND-OF-A-FRIEND WANTS TWO CUSTOMIZED FEATURES*

The Friend-of-a-Friend wants two customized features: 1) she wants the side rail higher; and 2) instead of the loft bed ladder, she wants a set of stairs that lead up to the bed. My estimates do not include these wrinkles. How should I price these specialty features? Incidentally, can I buy a prefabricated stair case (what are they, 2x8s?) and attach it to the side of the bed?)

*QUESTIONS ABOUT ESTIMATES AND PRICES FOR JOBS*

So, I spoke to the friend-of-a-friend today. It was very cordial. I explained that I'd need to go price the materials to figure out a price quote. I told her I'd submit an estimate to her via email this weekend. 

With that in mind, would anyone recommend a quote that lays out the materials cost and then asserts a labor number? Or, simply one price quote of $500? 

For three close friends who wanted specific things built (standing desk, chicken coop, and a bookcase), I simply told them materials plus $100 bucks -- and the explained it might take months for me to complete the project. They were all 100% fine with that. But, this one is a bit different. Not only is a friend-of-a-friend rather than a friend; but also, the time, effort, and energy in building the loftbed will take more time (and I'll have to go out to the house to install it). 

CONCLUSION

I'd like to do the work. I know it would be good for me. Indeed, I suspect I may get additional referrals if I did a good job on her work. Moreover, if I could make $200 bucks, I think it would demonstrate to my wife that this is a past-time (ok, a business) that can have short and long term benefits (and won't be a never ending sinkhole) -- or, so the argument goes. Moreover, the tools I use to build these things, can be used later to rehab a house. Finally, it improves my tax position, particularly if I not only generate income, but if I were to actually generated more income than expense for any profit.

So, what would you charge and how would you relay the number? 

Thanks!

--Craig.


----------



## kp91 (Sep 10, 2004)

Craig, 
A quick way to quote is 2x materials cost. If you get in the habit of undercharging, you'll wind up getting requests from friends of friends of friends who want the same deals. This can be a bad thing if you can't say no, you'll be busy with a lot of low paying projects. Folks get upset when you charge them more than friends & family.

For the custom stairs you add time and materials to the base quote. Include design time as well. I don't think off the shelf stairs will work well because of the tread length, depending on how high the bed is you'll take up half the room. Swing by a bed store and measure the rise and run of some loft bed stairs for ideas.


----------



## ggom20 (Feb 1, 2012)

hello!
+1 Agree with Kp91!

Don' t start being cheap it could be endless...
Two times the materials use to be that way in the 60's..
Think it' s quite more by now.

Custom work lend to errors and wastes of wood and time
Also tools cost and get used

Don' t forget to charge hours for moving and installing.

One of my friend is a professionnal carpenter and started at low prices
So now everyone want his jobs for low charge.
He' s in a mess
Regards


----------



## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi

I do it a bit different ,True cost of the job (materials and tools/items/elec.power used up by the job) and divide by 7, a true mark up of 30%.. 

You may say how on the elec.power I have a meter on the shop that will give me the kilowatts I use but most of the time I can get it right on the button because I know how much power the shop pulls in a hour time of being up and running..but using the welder ,it takes the meter most of the time.. 


http://www.ehow.com/how_2027243_calculate-price-markup.html

===

==


----------



## MEBCWD (Jan 14, 2012)

Hi Craig,

Make a list all your expenses:

1. gas for your car to buy materials, deliver and install the bed, pick-up and return of rented tools.
2. electricity to power the tools lights, and heat you use
3. cost to rent any tools needed (if you buy a large tool (like a table saw) then charge the rental cost you would have to pay for the job and charge this figure on jobs until the tool is paid for)
4. charge for tool replacement/repair, this includes bits and blades ( usually a small percentage of the total job). If you have to purchase a specialty bit or blade for the job that will not be used very often then charge at least half the cost of the bit or blade or talk them into a different construction method.
5. Charge for materials, I use this formula [(material cost + 15% waste) X 1.5]
6. Charge for design time for things not on the plans or for the job if you design it yourself.
7. Time, buying materials, actual work time, delivery and installation. These can all be different rates ( charge what your time is worth but don't under estimate your value, someone else will do the job if you don't)
8. When the job is completed, if you find it took you less time than expected or you save somewhere else then bill the job complete with the addition of a discount (shown in large lettering on the invoice) so the customer fells like they were treated fairly, some will pay the full amount if they are really happy with the job. Never tell them in advance that they might get a discount because they will probably expect it and be upset if you don't give them one, let it be a good surprise.
9. discounts for repeat customers (don't discount too much or they might expect too much)
10. discounts for dealers ( be fair but they have to understand you have expenses too)

Remember if you need to rent tools all the time then it would probably be a good idea to buy the tool then let your customers pay for it. After they pay for it let them pay for the upkeep.

You can adjust this how you see fit, this is how I figure a job.

Mike


----------



## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Hi Craig; as you've already figured out, the first one takes longer...the learning curve for want of a better term. Therein lies the risk of doing custom work!
Fine, give a rough estimate, but charge actual time for the final invoice. There's no reason you should eat the labour! 
ie. materials + a reasonable markup ...that covers overhead. Then add on the labour. 
Please remember and be respectful of the fact that you're 'competing' with tradespeople that do this for a living. Their shops have to pay Workers Comp., taxes, rent, insurance, etc., so when discussing prices you might remind the client that comparing to retail isn't realistic. (They already know this!)


----------



## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

This is one of the toughest things to figure out in all woodworking... What value do you place on your time. Here are a couple things to consider that were not mentioned.

Put it in writting! All materials cost plus part of the labor up front and non refundable since this is custom work. This protects you in the event that the customer can not or will not pay upon completion.(It happens!) Measure the space for the bed to be set up; never depend on the customers remark: "It will fit." Allow extra time for problems. No customer is ever disappointed in early delivery but be one day late and see what happens. Make clear your bill is cash on delivery/before set up; you only need to be stiffed once to learn this lesson. Detail everything on your contract and provide a delivery date. It is sad that these steps are needed to protect yourself. No haggling over the price ever. You are far better off to get paid for your work or pass on the job.


----------



## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Amen, Mike!!!


----------



## MEBCWD (Jan 14, 2012)

Mike said:


> This is one of the toughest things to figure out in all woodworking... What value do you place on your time. Here are a couple things to consider that were not mentioned.
> 
> Put it in writting! All materials cost plus part of the labor up front and non refundable since this is custom work. This protects you in the event that the customer can not or will not pay upon completion.(It happens!) Measure the space for the bed to be set up; never depend on the customers remark: "It will fit." Allow extra time for problems. No customer is ever disappointed in early delivery but be one day late and see what happens. Make clear your bill is cash on delivery/before set up; you only need to be stiffed once to learn this lesson. Detail everything on your contract and provide a delivery date. It is sad that these steps are needed to protect yourself. No haggling over the price ever. You are far better off to get paid for your work or pass on the job.


This is definitely one thing I did not hit on. Like Mike says get the money before delivery and make sure they know it will not be delivered without payment.

Another point Mike brought up is never listen to the customer when they tell you it won't be a problem getting it into a certain room.


----------



## tkleff (Feb 5, 2012)

Hey All, 

Thanks for the great tips. 

One follow-up if I may. The actual estimate form -- do you send one number over in an email. PIck an option: 

1) "I can build the doo-dad bed, and deliver it by Jan 13, 2931, for $515.92." Or 
2) "I've priced the job and it is $495 for me to complete it." 
3) Do you deliver an excel spreadsheet which details the cost of the hardware, the 2x6s, 2x4s and the 3/4" plywood sheet? 
4) do you deliver an even more detailed spreadsheet that not only lays out the materials, but provides an estimate of the number of hours, tool depreciation. . . you get the idea. 

BTW, anyone have an estimate they've recently done that they'd be willing to share? 

thanks!

cek.


----------



## MEBCWD (Jan 14, 2012)

Craig,

I would not give the customer a detailed break down of each item, just a final cost to complete, with the request for percentage up front (unless the customer requests a breakdown of the charges, this is additional work on your part so charge accordingly). Get their signature for OK to procedee and the partial payment. 
You can give a price to complete and a price for delivery/set up. You might not have to make a delivery, they may pick it up and save you the trouble. Just remember to get money up front for a portion of the job. 
Remember the customer is wanting to get the piece as cheaply as they can and if you give a broken down estimate they can take it to your competitor and save him the work of estimating the job. All he has to do is put in a bid under yours and show them where you were trying to make money off of materials or something. Play it safe, if they don't ask for a break down, don't offer a break down.

Just my opinion,
Mike


----------



## wbh1963 (Oct 11, 2011)

Most of my experience quoting jobs is in the Telecommunications and Computer System realms. Time has taught me that feeding a 'prospective customer' too much information is risky.

If the customer were to show an extra detailed quote to a contractor looking for a counter quote, the contractors reaction to your labor rate could be 'cheap shots' at your material prices, because he doesn't want to compete with your labor prices. That just creates hard feelings when your material prices get challenged. You should also understand that contractors probably can buy a good portion of the materials for less than they cost you. Not volunteering information that wasn't asked is safer.

Some jobs I will give up component pricing on, but most of the time I wont. I have done jobs where I disclose the invoices I bought the materials with at final billing and just mark up what I paid by 20%, but I wouldn't give up the parts list & prices without a commitment because 'comparison shoppers' love to give quotes to the competition.

Another comment I saw in the thread that I definitely 'second' is checking out some other designs of beds with stairs in stores, online or wherever during your design process. I wouldn't underestimate how much the 'stairs' alone could increase this project.

That being said, if the stairs had to kill a ton of square feet, sounds like an opportunity for a multi function chest of drawers!


----------



## tkleff (Feb 5, 2012)

So, for future reference -- 

I did end giving a bid. The bid was four lines, and quite simple: 

Full Sized Bed Built To OP-Loftbed plan specifications .......................... $395.00

Sanding and Painting (Two colors) Full Sized OP-Loftbed........................ $195.00

Custom Staircase (3 x 14x28" stairs, with handrail, fixed with lap joints, 
affixed to exterior ladder of OP-Loftbed) ................................................ $295.00

Sanding/Painting Customized Stairs (Two colors)................................... $145.00

Delivery ............................................................................................. FREE

TOTAL ESTIMATE .............................................................................. $1,030

I haven't heard back from the potential client. 

In the meanwhile, someone else wanted a quote; I told them $400 to build and $200 to paint -- and I'd need 4 weeks. They said they'd make it themself. Oddly enough, I was quite happy with that answer. I wouldn't have done it for $350 or $300 (unless it was family or close friends, then I'd do it with them helping me ). 

I'm going to assume client #1's silence means "no thanks". If that changes, I'll let you guys know. 

cek.


----------



## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

Sometimes people feel that they can get something custom built with solid timber for the same price they can pick up a pack at Ikea........

They have no idea........


----------



## MEBCWD (Jan 14, 2012)

Hi Craig,

Sometimes they need time to see what other people would charge them. Some times they thought you would give it to them for nothing. Other time they will call and ask if you can add something to your bid or question other options. 

There have been times when I was thankful that they did not want me to build their furniture for them because I just did not want to build what they wanted built. It just did not interest me or they just wanted one step above cheap and I did not want to build like that. I would give them a fair bid on what they wanted and just hoped they found someone else that wanted to do it. Sometimes I had to build it and did the best job I could but could not wait until the piece was delivered. Sometimes they thought you could build a one of a kind piece of furniture cheaper than the large factory that had an assembly line pumping them out all day long. It's hard to compete with some of the small furniture items coming out of overseas factories with their cheap labor and abundance of raw materials. 

I use to give them a 30 day guaranty on the bid I gave them so they could check prices to see what other people would charge them for the same job. My overhead was lower than a lot of my competition so it always made my bid look better. 

Good luck! Hope everyone was helpful with their opinions 

Mike


----------



## wbh1963 (Oct 11, 2011)

tkleff said:


> So, for future reference --
> 
> I wouldn't have done it for $350 or $300 (unless it was family or close friends, then I'd do it with them helping me ).


I noticed right away you priced the construction and finishing separate..... Most of the stuff I have built has been finished by the person who will be using it.

I have sold quite a few 'computer kits' that weren't assembled, but haven't done that with furniture (yet!).

Handcrafted furniture constructed with quality solid materials will always be on the opposite end of the price spectrum from the 'sugar coated particle board' stuff the market is flooded with.


----------



## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Craig, many people will say I can buy it for less at a store. Tell them: "You get what you pay for." A good example of this is a potty training chair. Most will cost about $40 in plastic. The chair shown I sell for $55 unfinished. It is solid wood with a stainless steel bowl. It will be kept and handed down and they get the pleasure of finishing it the way they want. It doesn't take long to acquire a list of happy customers and word of mouth is the best advertising.


----------



## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Craig; please don't let yourself get pulled into the _estimate vs quote_ bear pit! If a customer wants* a firm quotation*, what they get is a price. In almost every case they'll shop your price around, doing comparison shopping. There's no reason to supply your competitors with your cost breakdown (or your profit margin)!!
If on the other hand they want *an estimate*, then great, break it down into material and labour, if they want it more detailed than that, tell them you're too busy. 
Put it this way, if you phone a plumber asking for bids on having a tap replaced what are your chances of him even showing up? If you put in 3-4 hours doing a site visit, material takeoff, and pricing it out, you've already invested at least $100-$200 of your time...on a $500 project. See what I'm getting at?
One other point, Craig. Don't conflate profit/markup with your labour; they're two (three) very different things.
Your labour is what you get paid for your time and effort, be it digging a ditch or turning a bowl. 
Markup is what covers your expenses, related to doing the work. Vehicle expense, shop/tools, business license etc, PLUS a return on your investment (profit). Without it any business will fail. If your client doesn't understand that, run, don't walk!


----------



## kp91 (Sep 10, 2004)

Mike said:


> Craig, many people will say I can buy it for less at a store. Tell them: "You get what you pay for." A good example of this is a potty training chair. Most will cost about $40 in plastic. The chair shown I sell for $55 unfinished. It is solid wood with a stainless steel bowl. It will be kept and handed down and they get the pleasure of finishing it the way they want. It doesn't take long to acquire a list of happy customers and word of mouth is the best advertising.


Mike,

I love the magazine rack... nice touch!


----------



## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

*Customer Relations...*

:nono:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Yhpk-EUsKjM/Tzk-xOyq1vI/AAAAAAAAJ8A/kQKTdZL56nk/s400/cancel.jpg
...lol


----------

