# Router table flatness



## wm_crash (Nov 30, 2009)

Hello folks,

I haven't been on the forum in a while, but now that I have a new router table, I have a question.

How flat should be flat enough for a high end router table? I bought the large size Woodpecker phenolic package. I installed stand and mounted top as per instructions, and measured flatness with a Veritas 38" straight edge. It is clear the top sags. By how much? Around the insert area, over 20 thous at some places. It's a rather symmetrical sag side to side, but not front to back. It is really more pronounced around the insert cutout.

All these measurements are without the router or lift installed.

After being scolded for only showing up here when in need, any help is appreciated 

cheers,
wm_crash, the friendly hooligan


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Cosmin, the plate should not sag. Time to get on the phone with Woodpeckers about it.


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## wm_crash (Nov 30, 2009)

The plate is still in box. It's the table that's sagging that much.

thanks much,
wm_crash, the friendly hooligan


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## Quillman (Aug 16, 2010)

"any help is appreciated" 
**********************
Precision on the router table requires a flat surface.
In my view, within .002-.004".
And if there are any interruptions as your work travels from the surface to the router plate,
that will spoil the cut for close work.
Moreover, your fence must be square and straight and so must the work.
So straight, flat & square fence, flat work surface and well prepared work.
Ignore any of the 3 and you might as well hand rout.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Lee Valley designed their steel table top with a very slight convex curve, peaking at the cutout for the bit. Your work will always be dead on at the bit. 
However, if you set the bit height with a gauge on a concave table, a board will start at the right height, but once the board bridges both edges, the bit will be cutting low and then finish at the right height at the end. It might be possible to fix it but it would be better to replace it. It is most definitely defective if it is new.


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## Harrison67 (May 30, 2012)

Like Quillman said, that is way too much for quality work.

Send it back, and tell them to check flatness on any other new tables...it could be a manufacturing defect in all of their tables.


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## wm_crash (Nov 30, 2009)

Thank you all for the help. Here is a vid of me taking measurements.

Woodpeckers Phenolic Router Table - out of flat - YouTube

I have since placed the router lift in the table and was able to measure 23 thous gap over the router insert. I may film that later if needed.

I am expecting a phone call tomorrow from Woodpeckers. Will update accordingly.

cheers,
wm_crash, the friendly hooligan


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## PRDarnell (Mar 21, 2012)

Did you notice? No scolding. Guess that is just the way we are! I'm proud of that.


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## anniekirk (Apr 11, 2010)

Be sure to let us know how you make out.


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## wm_crash (Nov 30, 2009)

Here is a short update:

This morning I had a call from Justin from Woodpeckers. He was knowledgeable and genuinely trying to understand the problem, rather than just throw numbers and company policies at me. We talked about a lot of things regarding the measurements: how accurate are the measurement tools (straight edge and gauges)? how much out-of-flat is normally assumed acceptable out of box? how much sag is expected over time?

To partially respond to the first question, I shot another short vid:

Veritas Straight Edge vs Woodcraft Granite Plate - YouTube

How much out of flat is OK out of the box, the answer was that anywhere up to 30 thous is deemed OK. I did explain that while that may be acceptable for flexible plywood stock for example, it will show in cases where you have long thick stock going through. For such cases, he suggested raising the router plate to the point where it matches the highest point on the table, and make sure that the main stock reference point is the router plate, which I guess could be a compromise in many if not most cases.

As far as long term sag, I can only wait and see what happens.

As a conclusion, I sent him links to my videos and we will go from there.

cheers,
wm_crash, the friendly hooligan


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## BrianS (Nov 7, 2004)

So, tell me if I'm understanding this correctly. Rather than offer to "correct" the problem, he's suggesting a workaround for it? I guess I know what companies products I'm NOT going to be buying.


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## wm_crash (Nov 30, 2009)

Well, according to their own specs - which I can not find anywhere public or within the packaged documentation of the product - the table top is within specs. The conclusion of the conversation was to send an email (which I did) and we go from there.

And just because you guys are atom splitting nitpicks when it comes to router table flatness, I decided to seek a fourth party advice: George Vondriska.

See his reply to my question in his comments:

Why A Router Lift - YouTube

_"Regarding the router table top, how much out-of-flat (i.e., sag in most cases) should one consider acceptable?

wmcrash 16 hours ago

As a general rule with woodworking tools I use .003” as a guide. .003” or less you’re OK.

wwgoaeditor in reply to wmcrash 49 minutes ago"​_
cheers,
wm_crash, the friendly hooligan


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Cosmin, could you supply us with Justin's email address? I think he deserves our combined opinions on his product. I personally will be only too happy to respond to his suggestions. This is part of what the router forum stands for in my opinion. Shoddy workmanship should not be tolerated.


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Chuck, I already offered through a PM. Cosmin wants to give them until Friday to offer to make it right.


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

BTW....nice video work, Cosmin.

I wonder if we can get Harry to video some of his projects??????

I also wonder if we can find out how high the Oak Park plate used to sit above the table?


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## Tool Home LLC (Sep 18, 2012)

Cosmin:

Was your worst gap about .021"? I couldn't see the gauge on that last one.

Did you gauge the fence mounting tracks relative to the tabletop? It looked to me like they may be part of the tolerance stack.


Tom


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## wm_crash (Nov 30, 2009)

Unbelievable! I got a reply from Justin again questioning the devices I use to measure the flatness. To respond to that I was planning to measure the deviation between the straight edge against each of two brand new CNC rails that I have. Unfortunately my battery died before I could hit the right points, so I have to restart that from scratch. I don't want to present an edited video and possibly open other arguments. I also need to hire an assistant camerawoman (wife) because balancing the straight edge on the CNC rail takes one hand, and using the feelers takes another hand.

As far as the table, things have gotten from worse to worser. While sitting out there with my Craftsman router for roughly 36 hours (maybe less but it's irrelevant), I can now measure 24 thous dip at the point where before I was only able to measure 20 (same straight edge, same feelers, same person, same camera, you get the idea). Note that this is from JUST sitting . . . no running stock, no messing with height adjustments, no slamming my head/fist on the table after messing up a cut, no car, no severe temperature fluctuations (insulated garage), no strangers walking in (alarm system) with baseball bats, etc. etc.

I have the feeling this would have been worse with a heftier Porter Cable 3 1/4hp - yes, I am the kind of person that will buy that router _just_ to see what happens. (for anyone wondering, yes I have the replacement pads for a 4.2" router motor)

The other half of the email deals with if I am able to package and return the top in unused condition and if there were a replacement, what kind of tolerances would I be happy with.

Like Mike said, I would like to offer a reasonable amount of time to Woodpeckers to offer a reasonable way to deal with problems.

My common sense tells me that something went wrong in manufacturing. I have no proof, but here is what I think happened. The tops are on purpose made with a slight bump around the insert area (which when seen from below, it's a slight sag). The workers are supposed to set the table with the bump side upwards and have the miter and insert cut, as well as screw holes on the true underside. The table with a slight bump gets coaxed into flatness by the weight of the router, its own weight, the stand braces, and the free floating braces under the table. It would seem in this case, the top was placed with the wrong side up, so instead of ending with a bump, it has a sag and further sagging. Keep in mind, this is just my personal common sense guess as to what happened and I have no knowledge of phenolic manufacturing process.

Just to add some more to the picture, I have not yet measured runout and tilt. I will do that in case I consider keeping the lift/plate. How do I measure that? I have a 1/2" thick 18" long CNC rail and quite a few squares.

cheers,
wm_crash, the friendly hooligan


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## wm_crash (Nov 30, 2009)

Tom,

I believe the last feeler I tried was a 21 thous, but I did not have a clear insertion so I couldn't call it a 21 thous dip.

The fence mounting tracks are below table surface, they don't get in the way. They are anywhere from 7 to 14 thous below adjacent table surface.

Just to add some more numbers, I also have about 14 thous dip at the front of the table (i.e., away from the router insert) exactly above the stand support rail.

cheers,
wm_crash, the friendly hooligan



Tool Home LLC said:


> Cosmin:
> 
> Was your worst gap about .021"? I couldn't see the gauge on that last one.
> 
> ...


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## Quillman (Aug 16, 2010)

Flatness of most phenolic is abysmal.
Whether paper, kraft, jeans, cotton or whatever the laminate.

It twists with temp, time, % RH and stress. It ain't flat.
It's tough as hell, holds threads like steel, stands all sorts of heat without melting but it ain't flat. The flatness specks are not advertised for good reason.
Who'd buy the stuff?

I've seen black paper phenolic specs (once) on a 2' x 3' x 3/8" slab at >+ or - 3/8"!!!

You can remachine it, however. And rather than fight stuff that was thermally created and presented right out of the hot mold as finished goods: Remachine it.
Thickness sanders can flatten if you sand off the high spots on one side first, e.g.
Been there and now use nothing but ground jig-plate aluminum.


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## wm_crash (Nov 30, 2009)

I can accept that argument in a discussion about materials in general. When a manufacturer takes a material and makes a router table top, I expect it to meet the minimal specs of a router table top. If the material is unfit right out of the mold and needs further massaging and bracing, fine by me, but needs to be handled by the manufacturer.

I am perfectly fine if this needs to be bolted down to a steel frame, but I hit the shop once or twice a month. I don't want to deal with this.

cheers,
wm_crash, the friendly hooligan


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## wm_crash (Nov 30, 2009)

Here are two more videos I shot today

First one shows that after living in the table for ~36 hours, a craftsman router (lighter than the 3 1/4 PC that could have been there) has caused an additional 4 thous of sag. It also shows that I was not just making up when I said I will need to run 8/4 stock on top of this table:

Woodpeckers Router Table - sagging after 36 hours of router insert - YouTube

The second video I shot deals with proving the straightness of the Veritas straight edge. I lay it against two brand new CNC rails and can't fit a 1.5 thous anywhere. I am at the end of my possibilities trying to prove this thing is straight enough for Woodpeckers:

Veritas Straight Edge - confidence builder - YouTube

They were prepared for my email reply to Justin but I thought I'd share.

cheers,
wm_crash, the friendly hooligan


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## wm_crash (Nov 30, 2009)

Somebody call me Sherlock Holmes and I'll tell you a story you can tell your grandchildren:

I bought this now famous router table at Performance Tool Line:

Woodpeckers PRP-4-V2350 27x43 Premium Router Pkg Fits 3.5" Motors

from which I quote:

"The Super Fence mounts directly to our extra large 27 x 43 x 1-3/8 thick commercial grade router table."

Which can also also be found on the Woodpeckers website, but different price and no free shipping:

Woodpeckers PRP4 Precision Router Table Package

from which I quote:

"The Super Fence mounts directly to our extra large 27 x 43 x 1-3/8 thick commercial grade router table."

You called me Sherlock already, right? Turns out the table is 3/4" thick (actually it is 0.746" on my calipers)!!! Worry not, I have screen captures. And I took photos of my table with 3 combination squares just to make sure.


I am lost for words and I fail to understand.

cheers,
wm_crash, the friendly hooligan


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## Quillman (Aug 16, 2010)

"I am perfectly fine if this needs to be bolted down to a steel frame, but I hit the shop once or twice a month. I don't want to deal with this."
**************************
Point well taken.
I was off track, but you must know what you're buying before you make such a purchase. Not something you want to find out about after the fact.
At least, for some, there is a viable resurrection.
*******************


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

I spoke with Justin this morning and he is willing to exchange the table top. He will also be joining the forums as a Company Rep so he can assist members with questions or problems.

The page describing the set has a typo on the measurement of the table thickness which is 3/4" as seen on the page about the table itself. Performance Line Tool duplicated the page for their site. Incidently Performance Line Tool is a 45 minute drive from my house and they used to have a small store about 1-1/2 miles up the road from me. I have purchased many good quality tools from them; they are good guys.

Keep in mind that no router tables will be perfectly flat, it just wont happen unless you are spending in the thousands of dollars range. A reasonable standard is that the table does not sag and is close to flat.


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## wm_crash (Nov 30, 2009)

I was typing this just as Mike was posting his message. Apologies if there are redundancies:

As this is getting closer to a form of closure, here's the summary of my last exchange with Justin:

- the 1 3/8" advertised thickness was a typo/mistake that caused the specs of an MDF table to end up in the phenolic top product page

- he stated that if I expect 4 thous max out-of-flat along a 42" phenolic surface, I might as well just return the item

- he offered to find a table within 10 to 15 thous and swap it


My concerns:

- 10 to 15 thous is way more than anyone around here and otherwise on the internet considers acceptable (btw, WHERE do you guys get your router tables??)

- since simply adding a lightweight router (without even running it) for 2-3 days, the sag has gone down from an initial 20+ to 26 thous (just measured now)


Things to keep in mind:

- he assumes the combined error of my straight edge and feelers is a +/- 3 thous

- if I ever want a refund, I will have to package and send back - and then what table do I buy after that?

- I am not sure what will happen to the table with one week/month/year after upgrading to a Porter Cable heavyweight

At this point, my reply to him is that I am weighing my options. Any advice is welcome.

thanks much,
wm_crash, the friendly hooligan


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## Woodpeckers (Oct 4, 2012)

*Woodpeckers Router Tables*

Hello Everybody,

I'd like to thank Mike.M for bringing this discussion to my attention. Quillman sounds like he has some experience with machining and especially with phenolic. By in large, he is correct. Most phenolic is far from flat, but is quite stable. We do purchase the highest grade, flattest, and most expensive phenolic from Formica. The expectations of .004" from flat on a 4' section of phenolic is absurd. No one can or will be able to guarantee that. 

Something to put this into perspective, +/- .004" is the tolerance by our supplier of cast aluminum tool plate that has been Blanchard ground flat on both the top and bottom face. This is the stock we use to machine our router mounting plates and router lift plates. This same stock is only 10" x 12". By the way, we are the only company in the industry that uses this extremely flat and expensive material on plates/lifts.


All that being said, it is simply an unreasonable expectation for a piece of phenolic that is 27" x 43" to hold that same tolerance.

Cosmin, I have offered to replace your table with a table that is flatter. Somewhere between .010" - .015" or better if possible. I have also offered to send a prepaid UPS return label for your current table. 

I have agreed the entire time that your table is not flat. I only question the degree to which it is out of flat based on the tools you are using. We use certified high end inspection equipment in our machine shop. The tools you are using are probably acceptable for most woodworking applications, but that's about it.

Woodpeckers has been manufacturing woodworking tools just outside of Cleveland, OH for about 15 years now. We pride ourselves on offering our customers with high quality tools that are still made in the USA. More importantly, we try to do our customers right. If there is a problem, we do our best to correct it quickly. We can't claim to get it right every time, but you can bet we will stand behind our products and do what we can to correct it. 

Justin Killebrew
Vice President
Woodpeckers Inc.


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Cosmin, this is a tough question to answer. I have a feeling you will not be satisfied with the Woodpeckers table so perhaps the best solution is for you to return it for a refund. In the history of the forums I do not recall a single complaint on any Woodpeckers product. Perhaps a road trip is in order so you can select a table in person? I use a Router Workshop table and they are no longer available except used through Ebay or craigslist; I am certain you would not like this method of routing.


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## paduke (Mar 28, 2010)

Glad the conflict is resolved. There still remains the issue of tolerances in an RT. Ihave a 36" top and went nuts getting it true enough to use. So to finish the thread what are acceptable tolerances?


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## wm_crash (Nov 30, 2009)

This won't answer your question, but will give you some more reference points for 24x32 tops:

MLCS guarantees flatness within 15 thous for both their MDF and metal top router tables (as per my conversation with support)

Benchdog guarantees flatness within 8 thous on their cast iron - see Bench Dog® Full-Sized Cast Iron Router Table, Fence & Plate - Package #3 - Rockler Woodworking Tools

I have yet to hear back from JessEm (both direct phone call and via Lee Valley tech support were not returned) and from Rockler on their MDF tops.

cheers,
wm_crash, the friendly hooligan



paduke said:


> Glad the conflict is resolved. There still remains the issue of tolerances in an RT. Ihave a 36" top and went nuts getting it true enough to use. So to finish the thread what are acceptable tolerances?


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## wm_crash (Nov 30, 2009)

Quick update on the Rockler MDF tops after having talked to product support: there are no guarantees as to the level of flatness.

cheers,
wm_crash, the friendly hooligan


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## billg71 (Mar 25, 2011)

*Time out for a reality check*

Cosmin, I feel your pain. BUT we live in the real world where things are seldom perfect, our challenge is to deal with them as they come. 

So let's look at the Woodpeckers table top: Take a piece of material that's not noted for flatness, carve big chunks out of it, support it from the perimeter, hang a few pounds of weight in the middle and *Surprise! it's not flat!* OMG! Who'da thunk it?

If you take a look at the manufacturer's specs for Quillman's jig-plate aluminum you'll find Alcoa guarantees it for a flatness of .005" in thicknesses 3/4" or greater _if_ it's properly handled and cut. This is precision-ground cast aluminum at a cost of around $50.00/sft. for 1/2" material, call it $75.00/sft for 3/4 and your table top alone would have cost you $600 for the raw material plus whatever Woodpeckers would charge you for machining big chunks out of it and most likely wiping out the flatness in the process(of course they could have sent it out to be surface-ground after machining at a substantial cost).... It is what it is, you can't cut out large portions of a flat piece of material and expect it to stay flat be it aluminum, phenolic, wood, acrylic or whatever. At least not any material I(and presumably you) can afford.

As far as the Internet pundits go, I challenge them to take a Starrett straightedge and feeler gauges to their router table and come back and report it's all within .003" flat corner-to-corner, end-to-end and side-to-side. Quillman and his rather unique setup I trust, the rest need to prove it. As far as anything you can buy today for a reasonable amount of money I doubt if you'll do any better than Justin's .015" offer.

So what do you do? Basically, you deal with it just like the rest of us. Spend some time on your table, analyze what goes wrong and when and adjust your workflow accordingly. Is it a PITA? Yes. Are you willing to shell out the money or time and effort(do you have the skills to make your own?) to do better? Only you can answer that question. Anything can be accomplished if you have enough money to throw at it, how deep are your pockets?

It's all about knowing your tools, their capabilities and their shortcomings and making things work within those parameters. Nothing's perfect, we just have to deal with it.

Best,
Bill


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## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

billg71 said:


> It's all about knowing your tools, their capabilities and their shortcomings and making things work within those parameters. Nothing's perfect, we just have to deal with it.
> 
> Best,
> Bill


And remember, we are talking about _*wood*_working.. If you can machine it perfect today(doubtful), let it set over night and it most likely wont be perfect tomorrow! See the thread on wood movement...

http://www.routerforums.com/tools-woodworking/37755-learning-about-how-wood-moves.html


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## AxlMyk (Jun 13, 2006)

I glued 2 pieces of 3/4" MDF together, convex sides together, and called it good.
.015" is perfectly acceptable for a top. I have no idea what mine is, but it hasn't changed in several years being in a garage shop. 
For cripes sake, this isn't lab quality work we do. Don't be so fussy.


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## Harrison67 (May 30, 2012)

Well, after reading all of this thread, I'm glad I never shelled out $1.000.00 for a tabletop that is out that much. For that price, I would expect it to be flat.

.030 is totally unacceptable.


When a customer wanted a flat surface on a machining job, it was just that. Flat!


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## alaskagypsy (Jan 31, 2009)

*This isn't rocket science*

C'mon this isn't rocket science. 
I built my router table, bought the top from Woodpecker (48" for my Incra jig). My table has a flat top with a middle support and my top is screwed to it with angle mounts. The router chamber is supported equally on all sides plus I have heavy duty angle-iron screwed around the router, maybe 1/2 way between the router and the sides of the table, with the angle iron going all the way to the framing parallel to the Icra jig - it's flat. I have had the Dewalt 3 1/4 hp router hanging on there for 4 years. It never leaves the table - no sag. If it's not flat, once you screw the angle iron on it will be, or will eventually be and it won't go out of shape. At least I haven't seen it. I have a shop (in Fairbanks, Alaska) where I also store my work van nights - the snow brings in humidity so the wood can change. But I've had no problem. Quit the micro-managing of your tools and get to work doing what you like best - woodworking.


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## dickwilber (Oct 15, 2012)

Wow. I found this site and this thread as a comparative novice thinking about buying or building an inexpensive router table. This was way above my pay grade, and a little frightening. As someone with a fair technical background, I can see the impracticality of trying for a dead flat table surface. But, as was pointed out by one of the contributors, a table with a slightly convex working surface would be highly desirable. Sag from the router weight, and time, would tend to bring it back towards true flat, AND the depth of cut would remain as set across the workpiece. Thanks for an entertaining thread, but now I've got to return to the question of building or buying, and of potential compatibility questions with the routers I own.


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

dickwilber said:


> Wow. I found this site and this thread as a comparative novice thinking about buying or building an inexpensive router table. This was way above my pay grade, and a little frightening. As someone with a fair technical background, I can see the impracticality of trying for a dead flat table surface. But, as was pointed out by one of the contributors, a table with a slightly convex working surface would be highly desirable. Sag from the router weight, and time, would tend to bring it back towards true flat, AND the depth of cut would remain as set across the workpiece. Thanks for an entertaining thread, but now I've got to return to the question of building or buying, and of potential compatibility questions with the routers I own.


Welcome to the forum, Dick.


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## AxlMyk (Jun 13, 2006)

wm_crash said:


> he suggested raising the router plate to the point where it matches the highest point on the table, and make sure that the main stock reference point is the router plate, which I guess could be a compromise in many if not most cases.


And introduce a ridge to hang the stock on? Not recommended my myself.
That's a half-assed solution.


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## papasombre (Sep 22, 2011)

*...and the maximum flatness is...*



paduke said:


> Glad the conflict is resolved. There still remains the issue of tolerances in an RT. Ihave a 36" top and went nuts getting it true enough to use. So to finish the thread what are acceptable tolerances?


Right now my RT is under construction. I´ve already laminated two 16mm MDF pieces and covered both sides with high pressure laminated. After read all this thread, as Paduke, I´d like to know "...what are the acceptable tolerance" 

Best regards,


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## J. Leigh (Jul 15, 2012)

Quite a bit of misinformation and hyperbole in this thread.
.002-.004 max deflection? in a router table?? Ha! good luck with that..
I like precision as much as the next guy but let's take a deep breath here. Woodpeckers already explained the tolerences you can expect (which by the way are miles ahead of 90% of the junk out there) and has agreed to both replace the top AND the cost of shipping. Pretty reasonable if you ask me especially since a lot of the comments here have been less than reasonable.

Seems like every time a high end manufacturer has an issue with one of their products the so called internet experts use the event to pile on with comments about how this item is overpriced blah blah blah...a good part of that price allows them to provide the highest level of customer service as exhibited here by the Woodpeckers rep as well as other companies like Lee valley and Lie Nielsen.

So take the man up on his offer, send the old top back free of charge, accept the new top, put away your Veritas straight edge and your feeler gauge and start making sawdust.

Enjoy.


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## Sawdust Don (Nov 1, 2012)

I recently read a spec sheet for an older Powermatic model 66 table saw, the top is to be better then .010" for flatness.
Yes the top is cast iron, but, an actual test of the top using a 36" 60lb Brown&Sharpe master straight edge showed no more then .003" being out.
I would find .030" not acceptable, no matter what the stories may be.

Any other wood working machine with a table out .030" would need to be repaired.
Just my take on it.

Don


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## davelame (May 15, 2014)

Incra Customer service says .024 acceptable. So range seems to be .008 to .024. Am I allowed to change my original question to .024? Any body else have other numbers they would care to suggest?

Thanks to those who made specific suggestions that are quite helpful.

Dave


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

I tried building a router table and it ended up pretty much with a dip around .007" near the middle .
When I put a straight edge over it with a light behind it to indicate the problem it made it look worse than it really was . But it made me throw fits till I discarded it .

Btw I'm a hypochondriac , so that doesn't help . .035" is pretty much the thickness of money , so two five dollar bills thick shouldn't be an issue in reality and would be fairly close to .008 . 
I like the .008" far better than .024", but even the .008 is to much for me to sleep at night


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

TheCableGuy said:


> I tried building a router table and it ended up pretty much with a dip around .007" near the middle .
> When I put a straight edge over it with a light behind it to indicate the problem it made it look worse than it really was . But it made me throw fits till I discarded it .
> 
> Btw I'm a hypochondriac , so that doesn't help . .035" is pretty much the thickness of money , so two five dollar bills thick shouldn't be an issue in reality and would be fairly close to .008 .
> I like the .008" far better than .024", but even the .008 is to much for me to sleep at night


I have never checked the tabletops of any tool I have ever owned and sleep very well at night. As long as the switch works when I turn it on, I can make things. It is only wood, and since I don't make pianos,and 99% of the wood workers don't, so I don't waste my time building a shop that I can do that, Besides I wouldn't know where to start on a piano. 

Herb


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## woodknots (Mar 7, 2012)

Herb - you'd probably make the bench and call it a day - works for me too. I can't get that neurotic over "a few thou"


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

I tend to agree with Herb. Unless the tool is causing you problems and the things you make with it don`t fit right then you shouldn't go looking for issues with it.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

vchiarelli said:


> Herb - you'd probably make the bench and call it a day - works for me too. I can't get that neurotic over "a few thou"


 My problems go back to doodle arts when I was a kid . Spent many hours trying to complete one , just to screw up when I went over a line and couldn't repair it . My mom would try to convince me no one would notice it , but I'd go ballistic and tear it up lol


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## old coasty (Aug 15, 2014)

TheCableGuy said:


> My problems go back to doodle arts when I was a kid . Spent many hours trying to complete one , just to screw up when I went over a line and couldn't repair it . My mom would try to convince me no one would notice it , but I'd go ballistic and tear it up lol


Good Grief you are a youngster.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

old coasty said:


> Good Grief you are a youngster.


do not touch that for any reason...


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

There are some who would rather build and improve shops and tools but build few projects, I have no problems with this and that is what they enjoy. My grandfather was a millwright,he built saw mills and set machinery to the .0001". But was never interested in sawing a log. So it is what ever is enjoyable to you that counts for you and whether you can sleep at night. 

Herb


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Herb Stoops said:


> There are some who would rather build and improve shops and tools but build few projects, I have no problems with this and that is what they enjoy. My grandfather was a millwright,he built saw mills and set machinery to the .0001". But was never interested in sawing a log. So it is what ever is enjoyable to you that counts for you and whether you can sleep at night.
> 
> Herb


Thanks for posting this because I love working on the shop, making jigs, doing small projects now and again. Its just nice being out there and using the tools. I'm not likely to make fine furniture at this point, but may as my skills and precision build up. It is a hobby, not a career for me.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Seems to me that the vibration and weight would eventually cause some sag. I think you really need jointer-flat, hardwood trusses under a thick, multi layer table to keep it flat over the long haul. But out of spec on a commercial table--or anything more than a slight rise would prompt me to take it back, and I'd bring a good straight edge and feeler gauge to check out the replacement. I don't think we should be letting any tool or equipment maker get away with producing junky products.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

dickwilber said:


> Wow. I found this site and this thread as a comparative novice thinking about buying or building an inexpensive router table. This was way above my pay grade, and a little frightening. As someone with a fair technical background, I can see the impracticality of trying for a dead flat table surface. But, as was pointed out by one of the contributors, a table with a slightly convex working surface would be highly desirable. Sag from the router weight, and time, would tend to bring it back towards true flat, AND the depth of cut would remain as set across the workpiece. Thanks for an entertaining thread, but now I've got to return to the question of building or buying, and of potential compatibility questions with the routers I own.


Welcome to the forum . 
I have the 27/43 Incra top , and it seems very flat when I tested it , no complaints at all. 
I am going to glue a torsion box under it using 3/4" Baltic birch so it stays straight over the long haul . Timbertailor's making me do it


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

TheCableGuy said:


> Welcome to the forum .
> I have the 27/43 Incra top , and it seems very flat when I tested it , no complaints at all.
> I am going to glue a torsion box under it using 3/4" Baltic birch so it stays straight over the long haul . Timbertailor's making me do it


Have you ever thought of just turning it over and letting it straighten itself flat again? :grin::grin:

Herb


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

The Lee Valley steel table top purposely had a hump to it. A slight rise is okay, a dip not so much.


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

Herb Stoops said:


> I have never checked the tabletops of any tool I have ever owned and sleep very well at night. As long as the switch works when I turn it on, I can make things. It is only wood, and since I don't make pianos,and 99% of the wood workers don't, so I don't waste my time building a shop that I can do that, Besides I wouldn't know where to start on a piano.
> 
> Herb


+ Eleventy...


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## mbrun (Jan 12, 2020)

You know, it occurs to me, that issues like sag control could be built into a product that is prone to sagging. It could be done in such a way that the end-user could tweak it to their satisfaction. For example: Many a user that build their own tables know they need to add cross bracing beneath to minimize sag. Some even intentionally add steel angle below, but attach it in such way that they can shim the top surface up or draw it down to achieve their personal preference for flatness. So perhaps if adjustment capability is built in, the more OCD among us woodworkers can be satisfied and the manufacturer would have fewer challenged customers to contend with.

In addition, manufactures could provide better service by being more forthcoming about and publishing specs. If a specific value or tolerance is regularly questioned, why not publish it and hold themselves and the customers accountable to it. If a manufacture holds itself to a particular set of tolerances, why not publish them. 

I remember about decade ago searching for a particular type of pump. I was questioning the quality of everything I found until I found one (higher priced than many) where the manufacturer published a mean time between failure value of 15000 running hours. No other product in its class had this value published. That value meant something to me, it spoke volumes to me personally and it sealed my decision. 

Just some thoughts to consider on a very old topic.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

You have to consider what you are working here,WOOD. If you took a dial indicator to every piece of wood you used a project would never get built. After it is complete you could stand back and say that cabinet over there is within .005" in all dimensions,6 mos later you mic it and it gained or shrunk .005". A good woodworker never owns a micrometer or even knows how to use one.
Just saying,
HErb


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

Herb Stoops said:


> You have to consider what you are working here,WOOD. If you took a dial indicator to every piece of wood you used a project would never get built. After it is complete you could stand back and say that cabinet over there is within .005" in all dimensions,6 mos later you mic it and it gained or shrunk .005". A good woodworker never owns a micrometer or even knows how to use one.
> Just saying,
> HErb



The spiders are guarding my micrometers...


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## Bstrom (Jan 2, 2020)

This is one contentious subject - and a critical one at that. Thankfully, my Jessem Rout-R-Lift II came to me in good shape - flat that is - and my retrofit was uneventful as well. The Jessem has bracing of sorts under its phenolic plate that contribute to its rigidity - have no idea what the Woodpecker phenolic construction looks like underneath but it wouldn't be hard to imagine a change in flatness if it is left sufficiently unsupported - hence the aluminum material in their deluxe model. (My aluminum Bosch insert was flat but useless with their lift mechanism. I've got two is someone wants one for the shipping cost.)

At this point, good customer service is all you can count on these days from vendors, especially as the invoice figures increase for better tools.

As far as wood goes, a moisture meter should be the first tool you grab when starting a project. Consistent milling is another step i'm paying a lot more attention to, also. Primary disciplines and measurement techniques well executed seem to protect me from myself more effectively than any tool misgivings.


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## sonnywiehe (Mar 4, 2011)

I agree with the earlier post that mounting the table on a wooden torsion box (fairly deep rib matrix sufficient for span of router and material dead load) is the best bet for working the top to within acceptable tolerance. 
I would suggest drilling a bunch of Kreg pocket holes in a myriad of points along top edges of ribs which would allow one to fasten and/or shim in different spots as necessary. Drill the holes in tight pairs so that if one screw hole cams out for some reason during tune sessions, you have a back-up in that (nearly) same position ready to go.


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

@Bstrom My Jessem black Phenolic table has held up Ok for 10 year with the big 3 hp. PC router hanging on it, of course I have never checked it for flat,as it does what it is supposed to.
HErb


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Herb Stoops said:


> @Bstrom My Jessem black Phenolic table has held up Ok for 10 year with the big 3 hp. PC router hanging on it, of course I have never checked it for flat,as it does what it is supposed to.
> HErb


One of my tables that was meant to be a temporary one while I lived and worked in Alberta was a left over piece of 5/8" melamine coated particle board. I decided I'd try t-tracks for a fence hold down method and cut 3/8" deep grooves in the top for them. That only left 1/4" of meat under the t-tracks but I put cross members under the slots and 2 more as close to the plate opening as I could as well as the apron boards to attach them to running down the front and back edges. In 5 years of being outside in a shed from +40C to -45C it never dipped even a few thou. 

Like Herb has been implying, you guys are throwing more concern towards this job than is warranted for it. You won't be making parts for NASA with it. Attach a piece of some type panel board to a frame that resembles the floor joists and joist plates in your house and you'll be good to go. I sometimes think that some of our members need to make things complicated in order to believe they are doing it right. I'm not one of those guys.


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## 1fizgig (Feb 11, 2018)

I was hesitant to wade in here, being of the lesser experienced variety of woodworker, but really, once you have a non-sagging table and good support for it aren't you good to go?

My table top is an inch and a half thick, made of two sheets of melamine coated chipboard, and I used an aluminium plate I got off ebay.

The plate does appear to have a slight rise in it (very slight), but that's about it so far. I haven't used it lots, but it serves the purpose well.
I haven't measured the tolerances, other than it's pretty flat, and I hope it stays that way. If it doesn't and it's affecting something, I'll make a new top.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Herb Stoops said:


> @Bstrom My Jessem black Phenolic table has held up Ok for 10 year with the big 3 hp. PC router hanging on it, of course I have never checked it for flat,as it does what it is supposed to.
> HErb


same here...
I did put a torsion frame under the top made out of architectural aluminum channel... (stability)...
that was more for setting the top's final elevation for multitasking the table...

.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

I'm fascinated by this old thread. So long as the zero clearance insert is a fraction higher than the highest point on the table, the depth of cut will remain accurate however long the piece of wood is. I know that my table is cast iron, but it makes no difference what its made from. Notice that I use shims to achieve the slight height increase. A member did mention this early on but didn't emphasize it enough.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Put a really flat truss under it. It couldn't hurt.


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

@1fizgig I like that table design, really simple and sturdy.
Herb


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## 1fizgig (Feb 11, 2018)

Thanks Herb.
I've debated putting drawers or a cabinet in it since I made it, and as yet I'm still undecided. The thing I like about it is it has a good length, which should be good for most jobs


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

1fizgig said:


> Thanks Herb.
> I've debated putting drawers or a cabinet in it since I made it, and as yet I'm still undecided. The thing I like about it is it has a good length, which should be good for most jobs


I did drawers in mine a great way to store all the router odds ans ends close to where they are used.
Herb


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Herb Stoops said:


> I did drawers in mine a great way to store all the router odds ans ends close to where they are used.
> Herb


same here..

.


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## mtnwalton (Feb 10, 2020)

*sag concern*

I ran across this thread and it's really relevant to the way I've been thiiking. I recently wanted to improve my router setup and bought a new table, top and lift. I got the Rockler table, the rockler phenolic top and the Incra lift for Rockler tops. I'm of course very impressed with the lift and was really oncerned about sag like disussed here. I added angle iron under the top with tapped holes to adjust pressure up if needed. Hope to post some pics here soon.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Hi Mtn and welcome. When you get a minute go back into your profile and edit out the N/A where your name goes and give us a name or nickname to call you by. We hate referring to people as N/A.

Panel board of any type is not designed to span gaps without sagging so I think it's always a good idea to support it as close to the router plate as possible like you did. It's good insurance that you won't have a problem later. As I and Harry mentioned, it's okay for the plate to be a little higher than the rest of the table but it's not good if it's low. The work stays level at a high bit but when it's low the ends drop into the dip and the rest of the piece bridges across the table edges which winds up making an uneven height profile.


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## mtnwalton (Feb 10, 2020)

I thought I'd try to post some pics about the current subject - sagging tables - Just recently have been putting together I hope will be my last router setup. I bought a Rockler table, a Rockler phenolic top, an Incra lift and will be using my old Bosch 1617 for now. I thought I did plenty of research before making these choices, and so far I'm happy. I do wish though that I had gotten the Kreg table instead due to better bracing under the top. I decided to buy instead of build due to various reasons, I may explain later. Anyway, I'm trying to make smart decisions at this stage of life and hopefully don't have too many regrets later. 

If you can tell in the pics, I added some angle underneath and bolted into the Rockler frame. There are tapped holes to allow upward adjustment if needed. My shop time is kind of limited now partly because of the cold, but also back and neck pain.


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## sonnywiehe (Mar 4, 2011)

I used 3/4" melamine laminated flake board for router table extension to my TS. I know, not the best substrate, but I was in a hurry to get this thing set up at the time...and that's what I had hanging around the shop. I figured I would re-do it with a more expensive piece of phenolic resin veneer ply at some point to make it more slick and stronger

...but this has worked out reallywell with the addition of a pair of pocket screwed 1x beams (located near the router) attached from below. I think the 1x beams are about 3" tall and basically span across the steel structure of 54" TS rails. Anyhow, in case its helpful to anyone, here are a few pic of the set up. It’s been hangin for at least 7 years now with absolutely no sag. Just checked it with a Veritas straight edge before I set up to run some moldings today. Was thinking about this thread...but did not get out the feeler gauges to check for any "thou" deviations :surprise:. Bottom line-- no light under straight edge and only _slight_ hump from infeed edge to outfeed edge. That slight deviation could be built into the Woodpeckers plate even. It works fine.


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