# Two wrench method- one wrench router



## Erich (Sep 2, 2005)

The first router that I bought in 1969 was a Black and Decker 1/2 HP beauty that required two wrenches to tighten the bit. The remaining routers that I have purchased through the years use a single wrench as they have internal or external locking methods. Is there a method that will allow a single wrench router to be converted to a double? If not, then which manufacturers sell two wrench routers and what is your personal opinion as to best choice. Thanks Erich


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## Jim-Iowa (Sep 3, 2005)

Mike, I probably have a nearly identical B&D router also my first.
But mine is marked 3/4 hp. I also have two craftsman router with the spindle lock. I actually prefer the two wrench method. Since they all use 1/4" bits and the collets are in my opinion questionable. I think working two wrenches against each other like a pair of pliers allows me to get them tight enough to not slip. I have no idea who makes routers with the two wrench system.
You may hae to look at them? I know my Craftsman routers do have flats on the spindle below the collet nut that I have put a wrench on.


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## Glenmore (Sep 10, 2004)

Porter cable has the 2 wrench system I own 2 690s and I had a craftsman I prefer the PC over the spindle lock.


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## Erich (Sep 2, 2005)

Looks like I shall be purchasing a Porter Cable, thank you for your help. Delta


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## Erich (Sep 2, 2005)

I have a 3 1/2 hp Craftsman which will now be exclusively used for freehanded work as the advice from below appears to resolve my problem. Delta


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## reikimaster (Sep 29, 2005)

My new Bosch 1617EVSK uses 2 wrenches. What a difference using the Bosch from using my VERY old Craftsman 1hp.


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## Erich (Sep 2, 2005)

Well I took the plunge (pun not intended) and purchased the PC 7539 and the PC 895PK. In the near future I shall build the router cabinet and start providing commentary comparing them against My 3 1/2 hp Craftsman, several Ryobi pieces of trash and the Black and Decker. I do not know if the Porter Cables will work better but they sure are pretty and when turned on sound very smooth. Now to start planning on how to make Bob's fixtures. Delta6mike


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## Learning Herb (Sep 11, 2004)

Mike, I just bought a milwaukee and it has two wrenchs.
Learning Herb


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## cbsjoez1935 (Mar 14, 2007)

Mike,

I am experiencing a similar problem with my Hitachi router that only comes with the collet wrench. I am still looking around for the thin 23-24mm wrench to fit the shaft nut. The two wrench system is great and the high end routers normally will have them. The cost of supplying an extra wrench may be prohibitive to the manufacturers. You are going to get what you pay for.
Joe


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## Hamlin (Dec 25, 2005)

Either write, call, or check the website of the manufacturer. You should be able to get another wrench. If you don't this idea, buy a metric wrench from a hardware store and simply grind it down, (much like a "tappet wrench"), so it will fit without any trouble.

I have 3 routers, 2 with the spindle lock and 1 with the 2 wrench system, which is better?? I can't say, I like both.


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## Jack4r5tt322sfc4r22e (Aug 4, 2006)

The Hitachi TR12 came with 2 wrenches 21 mm (Hitachi 956923) and 23 mm (Hitachi 956922). The M12V only comes with 956923, but you can order the 23 mm wrench from Hitachi. I installed a piece of 7-wire trailer hookup cable sheathing to my 23 mm wrench and a piece of 5/8 inch clear hose to my 21 mm wrench handle. This matches the colors on the collett, and also keeps the wrenches from damaging the plunger slides.

As Bob showed on the Router Workshop, sometimes you may need to use a lever between the two wrenches to get the collett open, especially if it's really hot. This isn't practical with a spindle lock, because it's difficult to securely hold the router and the spindle lock at the same time while yanking on the wrench.


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Many people damage their collets by over tightening. After you have inserted your bit and pulled it out about 1/8" you should turn the collet nut till it makes contact and then snug it down. As long as your bits and collet are rust and oil free this is all it takes. One exception to this proceedure is the Triton routers; the instruction manual says to insert the bit fully and snug it in position there.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

cbsjoez1935 said:


> Mike,
> 
> I am experiencing a similar problem with my Hitachi router that only comes with the collet wrench. I am still looking around for the thin 23-24mm wrench to fit the shaft nut. The two wrench system is great and the high end routers normally will have them. The cost of supplying an extra wrench may be prohibitive to the manufacturers. You are going to get what you pay for.
> Joe


Hi Joe: I saw instructions somewhere that allows you to convert a spindle locked Hitachi back to the two wrench. I can't remember where but maybe someone here will remember.

When you find the thin 23mm please let me know. I need one too.

Allthunbs


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Allthunbs

It's not a big job to remove the lock mechanism ,then you can use the two wrench system if you want to..

You can get a thin wrench from the flea market that will fit the flats on the shaft..


You can also get a 23mm offset wrench from below

http://www.ptreeusa.com/routerAcc.htm#2887

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allthunbs said:


> Hi Joe: I saw instructions somewhere that allows you to convert a spindle locked Hitachi back to the two wrench. I can't remember where but maybe someone here will remember.
> 
> When you find the thin 23mm please let me know. I need one too.
> 
> Allthunbs


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

bobj3 said:


> It's not a big job to remove the lock mechanism ,then you can use the two wrench system if you want to..
> 
> You can get a thin wrench from the flea market that will fit the flats on the shaft..
> =======


Hi Bob:

Thanks for the info. The lock mechanism doesn't look like a major headache but then, I've not tried it yet. I've been searching flee markets for several years and nothing yet. Everyone sells off cheap wrenches & stuff, but none are selling old metric. I took at look at your offset wrench and I think I'll keep searching for a flat wrench. You see, I remove the router from the table to change bits and I prefer the two wrenches close enough to be able to use one against the other to loosen or tighten.

Thanks again.

Allthunbs


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi allthunbs

The wrenches that work best are the thin black ones the norm, thay are called service wrench, the ones that come with many tools to remove the nuts on cut off saws /many air tools etc. for just one or two of them,,,once you find one at the right price, say a buck you take it back to the shop and take it to the grinder and make it the right size...all for a buck..  they are short the norm say about 6" long for a 23mm size unlike the norm of 14" long..

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allthunbs said:


> Hi Bob:
> 
> Thanks for the info. The lock mechanism doesn't look like a major headache but then, I've not tried it yet. I've been searching flee markets for several years and nothing yet. Everyone sells off cheap wrenches & stuff, but none are selling old metric. I took at look at your offset wrench and I think I'll keep searching for a flat wrench. You see, I remove the router from the table to change bits and I prefer the two wrenches close enough to be able to use one against the other to loosen or tighten.
> 
> ...


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

I must reiterate what Mike said, many people over tighten the collets, if you have difficulty loosening the collet with two spanners, then you have over tightened. There isn't any point in asking which system is better, it's up to the individual to try both methods, at least with the spindle lock there is less chance of over tightening and causing damage to the collet. It would surprise many members as to how little force is required to perfectly lock the collet onto the cutter. Whilst I don't recommend anyone attempting the following, I recently tried it to prove or disprove what I had been taught, that in the table, if the cutter come loose it will just sit there safely.

I switched off the power to the shed, fitted a damaged cutter into the Triton router in the table, finger "tightened" it, switched on the router, stood outside the shed and put my arm through the doorway and switched the power on. The router started as normal and after about 15 seconds during which no unusual noises were heard, I switched the power off and examined the router, the cutter was still in place, so you must arrive at your own conclusions.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Mike said:


> Many people damage their collets by over tightening. After you have inserted your bit and pulled it out about 1/8" you should turn the collet nut till it makes contact and then snug it down. As long as your bits and collet are rust and oil free this is all it takes. One exception to this proceedure is the Triton routers; the instruction manual says to insert the bit fully and snug it in position there.


Somewhere here in one of these threads someone suggested putting an "O" ring in the chuck (somewhere) and that would ensure a constant "bottom" for the bit. I've never been able to figure out what size and where/how it should be placed. If I loosen the collett the ring will slip out of the hole in the collett. 

Comments? Suggestions?

Allthunbs


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi allthunbs

This may help you get it  ▼

http://www.routerforums.com/83854-post11.html


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allthunbs said:


> Somewhere here in one of these threads someone suggested putting an "O" ring in the chuck (somewhere) and that would ensure a constant "bottom" for the bit. I've never been able to figure out what size and where/how it should be placed. If I loosen the collett the ring will slip out of the hole in the collett.
> 
> Comments? Suggestions?
> 
> Allthunbs


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

bobj3 said:


> Hi allthunbs
> 
> This may help you get it  ▼
> 
> ...


Whilst I have no misgivings about Bj's stoppers for collets that clamp the cutter at the top (entrance), some collets, including a couple shown by Bj, clamp at the bottom, like this Makita one, in which case, in my usual humble opinion, I don't think it's the way to go.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

HI Harry

The ones I posted all work the same way, they all grab the bit at the top,but some do grab at the bottom but this is a easy fix with just a wooden plug (dowel) with a rubber grommet super glued on top of the wooden dowel ,inside the harbor, this will do the same job, give a stopping point for the bit..that's needed for matched bit sets.


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harrysin said:


> Whilst I have no misgivings about Bj's stoppers for collets that clamp the cutter at the top (entrance), some collets, including a couple shown by Bj, clamp at the bottom, like this Makita one, in which case, in my usual humble opinion, I don't think it's the way to go.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

bobj3 said:


> HI Harry
> 
> The ones I posted all work the same way, they all grab the bit at the top,but some do grab at the bottom but this is a easy fix with just a wooden plug (dowel) with a rubber grommet super glued on top of the wooden dowel ,inside the harbor, this will do the same job, give a stopping point for the bit..that's needed for matched bit sets.
> 
> ...


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## dovetail_65 (Jan 22, 2008)

I had a Makita 3612 for many years and used the rubber grommet and matched cutters from CMT sold by Sommerfeld. The cope and rail and t& g sets.

Though I get what you are saying I never noticed the bit get loose or slip in actual use. I used the router with the grommet in the bottom to make at least an entire kitchen worth of cabinets in one run and I noticed nothing different. 

So though the collet's pinch at the bottom for the Makita the rubber grommet never prevented the collet from grabbing the bit tightly in my experience.

Possibly because the rubber compresses a little as you tighten allowing the bit to get low enough.

When you tighten a collet around a bit it ever so slightly expands toward the bottom, the reason I think most manufactures do not want you bottoming out the bits.

Either way I never had anything happen pushing the bit to the bottom either, although I now do not do it in practice. I just keep the rubber grommet in the bottom always.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Harry

" but what is the difference between bottoming the cutter without any additions and bottoming it onto a wooden peg, rubber grommet or not?"

Lets take one bit set like a T & G set,,,when you use the set (that's matched the norm) you want both cutters to line up dead on,that's to say you want the male part right in the center the norm and you want the female the same way so at glue up time both parts are right on, it's true you can PLAY with the cutters to get the same thing by moving them up or down,,,by want not just that the guess work out of it..

The rubber stop will set the height for you once you set it up the 1st time, then it's all in auto mode after that...if the stock is the same the slots will be dead on and you don't need to sand the joint after glue the norm..

The same is true for R & S sets or any other sets that are MATCHED..
That why they make the type of router bit set.. 

I know once you try it you will say the same as I " WOW " that's the only way to use that router bit set...

I know you say put the bit in and then pull it up by a 1/8" I don't know anyone that can do that every time and get it right every time.

The rubber stops takes the error out of doing it..

I know most manuals tell you to do it that way, but they don't want to see you in court and they don't care how the project turns out and they don't want you to add any device to the tool they made..

Like a small rubber grommet that cost .05 cents and turns the router into a great tool..Here's just one, Marc Sommerfeld of sommerfeld tools ships out one with every router bit set he sells, he puts in a rubber grommet for free..he wants you to have the the best way to use the router bit set..

I know I have said this b/4 but do get the video ( Cabinets made Easy ) from sommerfeld tools and you will see what I'm talking about..

http://www.sommerfeldtools.com/prodinfo.asp?number=DVD4

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harrysin said:


> bobj3 said:
> 
> 
> > HI Harry
> ...


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Would someone please tell me what to do with the [email protected]#$%^&*! $0.05 "O" ring! I've been trying to figure this one out and it's as clear as mud but it covers the ground. Pictures would help getting the concept to sink into this thick skull!

Allthunbs


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Allthunbs

O-Rings are not the same as the rubber grommet/washer , the O-ring way sucks, they will move on the shaft and if it's off by .001 it will show up at glue up time..

I will say the o-rings work very well under the cutter, to stop you from putting the bit to deep in the collet,,most bits are not cut true under the cutter that's to say they have a small round over under the cutter and that part of the shank should not be uses..it will damage the collet and the bit will not be set right...(tight in the collet) 
But the rubber grommet/washer takes that error out quick and easy with a .05 cent part.

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allthunbs said:


> Would someone please tell me what to do with the [email protected]#$%^&*! $0.05 "O" ring! I've been trying to figure this one out and it's as clear as mud but it covers the ground. Pictures would help getting the concept to sink into this thick skull!
> 
> Allthunbs


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

bobj3 said:


> But the rubber grommet/washer takes that error out quick and easy with a .05 cent part.


Hi Bob: Thanks for the description and the picture. Now it sinks in! Ok, you say a rubber grommet. I'll go across and see if I can find one.

Allthunbs


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## Ghidrah (Oct 21, 2008)

Price Cutter.com has a witness mark to set by on all their bits. 

As for setting cutters to height, yrs ago when I bought my 1st stile&rail and sash sets I kept a chunk of each piece in Maple for guides sake. For the most part they get you very very close but never to a point of no sanding. I wish I was able to use the force when it comes to setting heights perfectly on the 1st try.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

HI Ghidrah

Give the rubber grommet/washer a try out just for kicks and you will say the same as I " WOW " no sanding needed...
But the bits must be matched set for this little trick to work..
I also use setup block wheel to set the bits up, but once that's done the router is not adjusted up or down...

http://www.sommerfeldtools.com/prodinfo.asp?number=EZSET



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Ghidrah said:


> Price Cutter.com has a witness mark to set by on all their bits.
> 
> As for setting cutters to height, yrs ago when I bought my 1st stile&rail and sash sets I kept a chunk of each piece in Maple for guides sake. For the most part they get you very very close but never to a point of no sanding. I wish I was able to use the force when it comes to setting heights perfectly on the 1st try.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Allthunbs

You're Welcome

I do like to use the facet washer in the bottom of the collet, (see the snapshot above) you can find them in a facet repair kit from ACE hardware/Lowes/HD and they are just the right size to press in the bottom of the collet nut,some have a little tit that must be removed with a sharp knife but other than that they just pop in.

But I also use a rubber grommet glued on the end of a wooden dowel when I need the bit to drop in a bit deeper..and one or two of the routers I have a very deep hole in the harbor...  like when I use the 4" long router bit.

==


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allthunbs said:


> Hi Bob: Thanks for the description and the picture. Now it sinks in! Ok, you say a rubber grommet. I'll go across and see if I can find one.
> 
> Allthunbs


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

==


=======[/QUOTE]

"When you tighten a collet around a bit it ever so slightly expands toward the bottom, the reason I think most manufactures do not want you bottoming out the bits."

Do most manufactures say that, I asked yesterday for members to check their operators handbooks and report on what they say. We know for a fact that Makita and Triton, both sold world wide, say to fully insert the cutter.

Now Bj, listen carefully, with a matched set of cutters, if they are both fully inserted, there will be 100% repeatability. If a wood dowel is left permanently in the shaft, then once again there will be perfect repeatability, however, rubber is flexible and so 100% repeatability is not assured.
This shot shows a plastic peg which Makita supply with models that have a deep hole in the shaft. When I have time I shall fully insert a cutter and measure from the it's top to the bottom of the nut then repeat with the nut tightened in an attempt to prove or disprove this thing about cutters rising or sinking.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

harrysin said:


> Do most manufactures say that, I asked yesterday for members to check their operators handbooks and report on what they say.


Don't you just love it! My M12V manual says "Insert the bit _deeply_ in the collet..."!

I guess they have a politician on the manual writing staff 

Allthunbs


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Harry

Now HARRY, listen carefully, when the bit is put in the collet, you don't tap it in place ,you just slip it in to the stopping point, the rubber is not that flexible then when your tighten the collet nut down it pulls the bit down just a little bit b/4 it becomes locked in place...

It will do it over and over the same way every time you put a bit in.
It's not to good to use a solid plug, this will act the same way as bottoming the bit out and you and I know that's a no no... 

It over loads the collet device...one part needs to move just a little bit.
That's why almost all router Mfg. recommend you put the bit in and pull it back up about a 1/8"..
That is why the rubber grommet works so well,it takes the guess work out of it and lets the bit compress the grommet just a little bit..


PING PONG
===== 






harrysin said:


> ==
> 
> 
> =======


"When you tighten a collet around a bit it ever so slightly expands toward the bottom, the reason I think most manufactures do not want you bottoming out the bits."

Do most manufactures say that, I asked yesterday for members to check their operators handbooks and report on what they say. We know for a fact that Makita and Triton, both sold world wide, say to fully insert the cutter.

Now Bj, listen carefully, with a matched set of cutters, if they are both fully inserted, there will be 100% repeatability. If a wood dowel is left permanently in the shaft, then once again there will be perfect repeatability, however, rubber is flexible and so 100% repeatability is not assured.
This shot shows a plastic peg which Makita supply with models that have a deep hole in the shaft. When I have time I shall fully insert a cutter and measure from the it's top to the bottom of the nut then repeat with the nut tightened in an attempt to prove or disprove this thing about cutters rising or sinking.[/quote]


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Bj, with so many routers, you must have hand books, why not scan and post the paragraphs that tell how to insert the cutter, go on, it won't take you long!


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

The supplied dowel that comes with the router will allow the proper amount of movement for tightening. How is that for an easy answer? Bob & Rick Rosendahl, the founders of this forum, the experts who have published two books and taught tens of thousands how to use their routers say to insert the bit fully and then back it out about 1/8". This applies to most routers, but follow the instructions that come with your router when in doubt.


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## dovetail_65 (Jan 22, 2008)

There is NO way you could possibly measure the amount I referred to that the router bit shaft expands! We are talking a very little amount, not an amount that can be measured with any device you would have on hand. We are talking thousands of a mil for heavens sake. 

I have never had trouble using the o rings and getting perfect alignment 100% of the time with the matched cutters and the o ring in the bottom. They are not going to compress have you seen the rubber in these rings. I would have to jam the bits in the shaft as hard as I could and I still doubt they would compress much within the shaft. 

In all the classes and every book and every expert that has run a seminar I have gone to, everyone suggests not bottoming out the router bit. And one seminar I went to the gentleman was using a Makita router. It's how I learned and have been doing it the last 25 years and first learned it from my grandfather. Then in high school shop. The again by Sommerfeld at his many seminars for cabinetmaking, both Kreg and his brother.

Bottom out the bit if you want, but it is not a standard way to insert a router bit. I will go with the experts I have read and interfaced with my entire woodworking career.

Actually, in this thread is the first time I ever heard of someone bottoming out the bit in purpose.


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## dovetail_65 (Jan 22, 2008)

Here is the scientific reason why you MUST back out a router bit.

*Installing Router Bits*

*Almost everybody knows that the "proper" way to install a router bit is to bottom it out in the collet, then withdraw it 1/16" to 1/8" before tightening the collet nut. Almost nobody, however, knows why.* I've never seen an owner's manual divulge the secret, and I've seen the real story in print only once or twice in the last twenty years. The stuff you _have_ heard is almost certainly hogwash: you pull the bit back to reduce vibration, or to decrease heat transfer into the motor spindle, or perhaps to keep fairy dust from getting in your eyes. Even though such things actually show up in print from time to time, they're entirely nonsensical.

Most of us aren't real good at following instructions whose purpose and provenance we don't understand, and I'd guess I'm not the only router user who's sometimes been a little too casual about bit installation because the rules just didn't seem very real or important. It turns out the rules are both real and important, and once you know why they're there you'll never fail to pay attention and install your router bits safely.

*







Picture a collet at work. As you tighten the collet nut, you drive the increasing taper of the collet cone into the matching decreasing taper milled into the end of the motor spindle. This squeezes the collet against the router bit shank, creating so much friction that the bit is locked in place and can't twist or pull out during operation.*
*
If you try to make this happen while a bit is bottomed out in the spindle, however, you're asking for the impossible: the collet cone must slide along the stationary shank while simultaneously locking onto it immovably. What actually happens is that the collet grabs the shank hard enough to quit sliding, so you might not be able to tighten it further even though it's not yet tight enough to control the bit under operational loads. So when you fire up the router and start stressing the bit, it comes creeping out of the collet. This makes for exciting times in the shop, you bet, but it's not very productive.

If instead you first bottom out the router bit and then pull it back a tad, you allow the collet cone to grab the shank and pull the bit along with it as both are driven deeper into the spindle, locking on tighter and tighter all the while. The story is so simple it's absolutely obvious--after you've heard it, of course. Pass it along; there's no reason for every new router owner to stumble through the same bog of ignorance and misinformation that you and I have had to put up with.

Incidentally, if you have a 1/2"-collet router which uses adapter sleeves rather than replacement collets for smaller shanks, be sure to treat the adapter exactly as if it were a bit; leave room for both bit shank and adapter to travel deeper into the collet when you tighten the nut.

Tightening the nut means just that: don't "kill" it, just tighten it. Apply firm pressure with your wrench and then go away before you decide that more is better. Over tightening eventually will stretch the mouth of the spindle so it can't hold any bit securely--and when you need a new spindle you get to buy a whole new router along with it.*

Having firmly established the rules, we should mention that they don't apply to several top-of-the-line current routers. A relatively new design feature has the motor spindle drilled far deeper than the usual inch or so (see our DeWalt and Makita plunge routers, for instance), so deep that it's unlikely even the longest shanks will reach bottom. This completely solves problems that would result from bottoming out, but it creates a different problem: you can't always figure out how much shank you've inserted into the collet. As a general rule, you should insert any bit shank to the full depth of the collet's grip (usually at least 3/4") to ensure positive control. Any less risks creeping bits, bent or broken shanks, and more unproductive excitement. An effective low-tech solution is marking a heavy black line on your bit shanks to eliminate guesswork errors when using deep-bored spindles.

Here's a related thought: if it's friction that holds a bit in the collet, then anything that reduces friction is bad news. Friction results from contact between surfaces; the smoother the two surfaces are the more contact they can share. Corrosion, dirt or damage can reduce friction dramatically. Never grab a bit with pliers to change bearings, clean it or sharpen it (the router collet is the right tool for holding a shank harmlessly, after all). If you have a bit with a scarred shank, discard it, no matter how painful the loss--it's not as painful as routing through the side of a roll top desk or catching a broken bit right in the kazoo. Do not treat shanks with oil or other coatings designed to prevent corrosion. Regularly inspect the collet, the motor spindle and your bit shanks to make sure they're clean and polished. If they need help, use nothing coarser than 4/0 steel wool, a white Scotch-Brite pad, a bronze gun bore brush or a fine Rust Eraser to clean them up.

*Written by

Zach Etheridge*
*
Highland Woodworking
*

Thanks Zach!

I am awaiting a response from Zach as whether I can leave this up. *I did not write this.* In the past I was told if the author was credited and I linked back to their site(Highland Woodworking) its okay, but if they email me back to remove it I will just leave a link to this very informative article.

In another online publication I printed a hole back I found this, I can not verify the author I will when I find out:

*Two other minor Reasons NOT To Allow Router Bits To Bottom-Out In The Collet*
First, bottomed-out bits will almost always make direct contact with the shaft of your router's motor...transferring the heat created by cutting directly to your motor's shaft. This will tend to shorten the lift of your router motor.

Second, if a bottomed-out bit seizes in the collet (which frequently happens), you'll have to PULL it out with pliers, which can be difficult. If your bit isn't bottomed-out, you can tap it with a piece of wood, freeing it from the collet much more easily.


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## Hamlin (Dec 25, 2005)

Hi,

Not trying to dispute this but, what part of counter diction is this? (read the quotes). The key is safety. Again, read the tools manual, there is a reason they are printed in the first place.




> The stuff you _have_ heard is almost certainly hogwash: you pull the bit back to reduce vibration, or to decrease heat transfer into the motor spindle, or perhaps to keep fairy dust from getting in your eyes. Even though such things actually show up in print from time to time, they're entirely nonsensical.





> *Two other minor Reasons NOT To Allow Router Bits To Bottom-Out In The Collet*
> First, bottomed-out bits will almost always make direct contact with the shaft of your router's motor...transferring the heat created by cutting directly to your motor's shaft. This will tend to shorten the lift of your router motor.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Why then do at least two major international manufacturers say to FULLY insert the cutter, Makita and Triton. It amazes me how fast and wide myths travel. I'm still waiting for members to post what their owners manuals say regarding cutter insertion.


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## AlanZ (Aug 21, 2008)

The instructions for Triton routers varies

From page 9 of my Triton 2.25 hp MOF001KC router



> 3. Insert your router bit (21) fully into the collet, then pull it back 1/16" (1-2mm). Use the wrench (22) to turn the collet slightly, allowing the collet lock to engage. Once engaged, turn the spanner clockwise to tighten the bit


http://www.tritonwoodworking.com/manuals/MOF001KC.pdf

Instructions for the larger router in my next post.


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## AlanZ (Aug 21, 2008)

The instructions for the 3HP 2400w TRA200 router is different. From page 7:



> Use the spanner (j) to turn the collet slightly, allowing the collet lock to engage. Once engaged, turn the spanner anti-clockwise to release, or clockwise to tighten the cutter. Fig. 12.
> 
> *Note*: When fitting cutters, ensure the shank is inserted fully into the collet.


http://www.tritonwoodworking.com/manuals/TRC001.PDF


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## AlanZ (Aug 21, 2008)

From page 8 of the Festool OF1400 manual




> *Inserting the tool*
> - Insert the router (6.3) into the open clamping collet as far as possible, but at least up to the mark on the router shank.
> - Press the switch (6.1) for locking the spindle on the right-hand side (A).
> - Tighten the locking nut (6.2) with a 19 mm open-end spanner.




http://www.festoolusa.com/media/pdf/465324_006_of%201400_usa.pdf

Page 10 of the OF2200 manual also says to insert the bit as far as possible.

http://www.festoolusa.com/media/pdf/472601_003_of%202200_usa_nl.pdf

*HOWEVER* the FestoolUSA Knowledgebase article states



> Q: How do I set the router bit depth?
> 
> A: Place about 2/3 of the shank in the collet and tighten. You don't want to bottom the bit out as the shaft will expand as it heats up. Loosen the depth post lock (see manual). With the router table flat, plunge the bit, and when it is stopped, tighten the plunge lock. Use the closest depth stop turret and set your depth indicator at zero. You are now ready to set your depth, simply raise the indicator to the desired depth and set depth post lock. The green, micro adjust knob will move the bit up or down 1/10 mm to adjust. See your manual for complete details. A copy of your manual is available under the service section of our website under tool manuals.


http://www.festoolusa.com/support/Support-Article.html?ArticleID=34


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## AlanZ (Aug 21, 2008)

Dewalt DW618 page 1 and page 2



> 1. To install a bit, insert the round shank of the desired router bit into the loosened collet as far as it will go and then pull it out about 1/16". Using the wrench(es) provided, turn the collet nut (J) clockwise while holding the spindle shaft with the second wrench. [On the DW618, depress the spindle lock button (I) to hold the spindle shaft.]


http://toolnet.dewalt.com/Toolnet/OMrepos/0037810B5F0F26420080000354BC051F.pdf


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## AlanZ (Aug 21, 2008)

Freud FT1700 page 10



> e) Insert the router bit and rotate the collet nut with the 22mm wrench clockwise to tighten the collet. Always be sure that 80% of the router bit shank is inserted in the collet - Fig 1e


http://www.freudtools.com/images/manuals/FT1700VCEK-Manual.pdf

*HOWEVER*

The Freud FT3000 manual adds this note on page 9:


> d) Insert the router bit and rotate the collet nut with the 22mm wrench clockwise to tighten the collet. Always be sure that at least 80% of the router bit shank is inserted in the collet but
> never allow the bit shank to “bottom out” in the collet. – Fig 4


http://www.freudtools.com/images/manuals/FT3000-Manual.pdf


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## dovetail_65 (Jan 22, 2008)

Hamlin said:


> Hi,
> 
> Not trying to dispute this but, what part of counter diction is this? (read the quotes). The key is safety. Again, read the tools manual, there is a reason they are printed in the first place.


The second is not from the same author. That is not a contradiction just another persons opinion.

Festool also states that the shaft does grow. It science and common sense. Well common sense if you studied the nature of metal in high school or college science. If you look carefully many manufactures will state to pull out the router bit, but you have to look hard because it is usually taken as common knowledge. A few people have shown Festool and many others do include this on their web site or manuals. To me it just makes sense, metal expands and the logic of the the collect grabbing and there needing to be room at the bottom also makes sense. Actually, the metal expanding is a fact its not disputable.

I did state that I have never in practice seen anything go wrong when the collet was pushed in all the way the very few times I have seen someone do it.

I am sure I can spend all day on the web and find 100 sources that say pull the bit out slightly to every source that says just put in the bit. But I need not prove myself as that is my technique and I am happy with it. As is the high school shop teacher(luckily we still have that here) and anyone that teaches my kids woodworking. That's good enough for me. If someone wants to cram the bit in all the way I have no problem with it, not my bit, not my router. And i am sure in the whole scheme of things it is a small thing.

But I have never seen anyone *specifically* say push that bit in tight to the bottom so there is no gap at all. And if I did I would ignore it as some ignore the warnings not to do it. I think this topic is done for me as I can not possibly change someone mind that is set in his ways, I know, my wife has tried to change me for years, won't happen.


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## AlanZ (Aug 21, 2008)

Bosch 1619EVS page 8:



> 4. Insert the shank of the router bit into the collet chuck assembly as far as it will go, then back the shank out until the cutters are approximately 1/8" to 1/4" away from the collet nut face.


http://bosch.cpotools.com/static/manual/www.cpotools.com-1619evs.pdf


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## AlanZ (Aug 21, 2008)

As you can see, there's no consistency in the instruction manuals, even within brands.

However, I agree with Nick. The properties of metal would cause me to back out the bit a little. 

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of using a rubber grommet like Sommerfield and others recommend. 

Using a relatively stiff rubber grommet would allow for some isolation from the motor and allow compression during tightening, but will likely return to its 'at rest' height when not compressed. This would allow consistency during bit installation (assuming you simply bottom the bit on the grommet, but don't press down before tightening).


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

nickao65 said:


> I know, my wife has tried to change me for years, won't happen.


I don't know you from Adam but I'll just bet my last dollar that, not only have you been "trained" by your wife, you have been shaped, molded, prodded, poked and changed by her gradually over the years. You just don't realize it.


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## fdcox (Dec 3, 2007)

I have a couple of different routers that use the 2 wrench system which I prefer over the spindle lock.


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## Hamlin (Dec 25, 2005)

Hi Nick,

Sorry you feel this way, & I appologize if I've upset you.


> I think this topic is done for me as I can not possibly change someone mind that is set in his ways, I know, my wife has tried to change me for years, won't happen.


It's obvious that each manufacturer have different methods/ideas. I believe Harry, has gotten something accomplished here. People are now reading and posting their manuals.


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## dovetail_65 (Jan 22, 2008)

I am not upset at all don't worry about me I have thick skin, just ready for another topic that's all.

Happy Thanksgiving!


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Well guys, that broke the monotony during a quiet period on the forum, around 1600 viewers and 50 posts, we'll have to do something similar real soon!

Just my final word on the subject, because the coefficient of linear expansion of the steel shaft, the steel cutter and the steel collet are substantially the same, where is the problem, no differential rates of linear expansion are involved.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

harrysin said:


> Well guys, that broke the monotony during a quiet period on the forum, around 1600 viewers and 50 posts, we'll have to do something similar real soon!
> 
> Just my final word on the subject, because the coefficient of linear expansion of the steel shaft, the steel cutter and the steel collet are substantially the same, where is the problem, no differential rates of linear expansion are involved.


Actually, you've forgotten about the dissimilar metals problem wherein the coefficient of linear expansion of each element will be different, thus creating an additional layer of friction and thus an increase in heat enclosed in a high pressure, high temperature environment that will ultimately exacerbate heat retention and creation exponentially! ;-))

Allthunbs


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

"Actually, you've forgotten about the dissimilar metals"

What dissimilar metals, all three are steel and the difference between the three types over such a small area is infinitesimal!

Where on earth is the HIGH temperature and HIGH pressure, I regularly use a router for several hours at a time, admittedly intermittently and I can change cutters with no need to use an asbestos glove or any other insulator. Sure the cutter and router are warm, but that's it. You may not be aware that the router is my main tool, and I have been using them since 1974, further, since 2000 I have been a prolific maker of routed projects.

!


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

harrysin said:


> "Actually, you've forgotten about the dissimilar metals"
> 
> What dissimilar metals, all three are steel and the difference between the three types over such a small area is infinitesimal!
> 
> ...


Harry, I was making a joke! All three are different grades of steel with different alloys that will react differently with each other. When you see ;-) read 

Allthunbs


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

"Harry, I was making a joke! All three are different grades of steel with different alloys that will react differently with each other. When you see ;-) read

Allthunbs"

I become too serious at times, but purely as a matter of interest, here is the AVERAGE coefficient of linear expansion of steels:

0.00000665 inches per degree F..........Is this really going to make any difference where routers are concerned.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

harrysin said:


> "Harry, I was making a joke! All three are different grades of steel with different alloys that will react differently with each other. When you see ;-) read
> 
> Allthunbs"
> 
> ...


Actually, it's 0.00000664751842, but I'll not quibble ;-))

Allthunbs


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## dovetail_65 (Jan 22, 2008)

Allthumbs come on I know you can eye ball that amount if you had to.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

nickao65 said:


> Allthumbs come on I know you can eye ball that amount if you had to.


Eyeball, I couldn't imagine 0.00000664751842 of an inch. I'm fully expecting Harry to tell me to take a flying leap though. 

Allthunbs


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## wnagle (Oct 13, 2008)

The instructions say fully seat the bit in the collet cone. That is not the same as saying bottom the bit out. It depends on the length of the shaft. If the shaft is long enough to bottom out it should be raised off the bottom. The bit should be as low in the collet as posible without bottoming out. If you use a grommet on the bottom, you can bottom into the grommet. Seems simple to me...


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

wnagle said:


> The instructions say fully seat the bit in the collet cone. That is not the same as saying bottom the bit out. It depends on the length of the shaft. If the shaft is long enough to bottom out it should be raised off the bottom. The bit should be as low in the collet as posible without bottoming out. If you use a grommet on the bottom, you can bottom into the grommet. Seems simple to me...


Which router?

Allthunbs


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## wnagle (Oct 13, 2008)

The instruction Harry posted in post 22.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

wnagle said:


> The instruction Harry posted in post 22.


Oops, got it. Through confusion comes understanding ;-)

Allthunbs


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Because no unsafe methods have been discussed, I can, with conviction say, TO EACH HIS OWN, Amen.............................


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## datvette (Mar 22, 2012)

Hello Guys
Just picked up a Hitachi TR12 from Habitat Re-Store. It was sitting there for $35 and the salesman asked if I had shopped there before. When I told him I had just moved into the neighborhood he says "OK then, that will be $25. Welcome to the neighborhood". Has no wrenches, guide or manual but I'm looking. 
Datvette


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

datvette said:


> Hello Guys
> Just picked up a Hitachi TR12 from Habitat Re-Store. It was sitting there for $35 and the salesman asked if I had shopped there before. When I told him I had just moved into the neighborhood he says "OK then, that will be $25. Welcome to the neighborhood". Has no wrenches, guide or manual but I'm looking.
> Datvette


Hi Reese:

Here's the manual:

http://www.routerforums.com/hitachi-manuals/32615-tr12-1-2-plunge-router-manual-parts.html .

There's a *.PDF copy there. For the wrenches, you might end up going to the Makita site and looking at the 3601B wrenches. I have the M12V and that's where I got the wrenches for mine.

HTH


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Offset wrench ,they work great

MLCS Heavyweight and Precision Router Tables

==


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## datvette (Mar 22, 2012)

Just got a Hitachi TR12 From Habitat Re-Store. Didn't get squat with it. Thinki'n maybe the guy died and his wife cleaned out the garage and donated it? Anyway. I have plenty enough room for my 7/8" and 15/16" and I'm likeing it. I'm not going to spend money on cheap replacements plus shipping. Very glad to see the 2 wrench method is much preferred. Why don't the manufacturers give you the option of which to use? Put the spindle lock on but also give flats on the shaft where you can wrench it if you choose.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

datvette said:


> Just got a Hitachi TR12 From Habitat Re-Store. Didn't get squat with it. Thinki'n maybe the guy died and his wife cleaned out the garage and donated it? Anyway. I have plenty enough room for my 7/8" and 15/16" and I'm likeing it. I'm not going to spend money on cheap replacements plus shipping. Very glad to see the 2 wrench method is much preferred. Why don't the manufacturers give you the option of which to use? Put the spindle lock on but also give flats on the shaft where you can wrench it if you choose.


Hi Reese:

That's what my M12V is. It has spindle lock for fixed table mount and dual wrenches capability for all other applications. Hitachi doesn't sell the two wrenches though. That's why I gave you the Makita link. Note the offset wrench is necessary for fixed table use but I find it too cumbersome to use out of the table. Also, it puts a tremendous amount of stress on the columns especially when the collet is reluctant to release a bit.


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