# Rapidly Losing my head



## Seldonman (Jul 30, 2013)

I may not use screw fasteners often in my wood working but when I do, such as building cabinets, I easily get frustrated because the screw head quickly turns into fine metal shavings. This happens about a third of the time and usually by the time the screw is 2/3 of the way home it stops turning and I have to get a pair of vise grips to remove it and start again. I thought getting an impact driver would help but I am still having the problem. Any suggestions. Should I abandon Phillip head screws in favor of something else?

Jim


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Jim I'm no expert but I'm a fan of Robertson screws . A Philips to me is pretty much just two flatheads 
Philips are great for drywalling but that's about it imo


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

Jim...assuming you are screwing into hardwood I suspect you need a screw with some self tapping threads at the point end...or pre-drill a small hole then use your phillips screws. My typical is to pre-drill leaving a taper for the screw head so it's flush using something like:

DEWALT Steel Countersink Set (3-Piece)-DW2535 - The Home Depot

If you get a quick change (Makita, Dewalt) you can quick flip from the drill end to the bit end - 1,2,3

Hope this helps...Nick


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Nickp said:


> Jim...assuming you are screwing into hardwood I suspect you need a screw with some self tapping threads at the point end...or pre-drill a small hole then use your phillips screws. My typical is to pre-drill leaving a taper for the screw head so it's flush using something like:
> 
> DEWALT Steel Countersink Set (3-Piece)-DW2535 - The Home Depot
> 
> ...


Pre drilling , good point Nick. I do it myself and never thought to mention it


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

And rub the threads with a stub of candle wax. (No bell and book required...)


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## DonkeyHody (Jan 22, 2015)

Seldonman said:


> I may not use screw fasteners often in my wood working but when I do, such as building cabinets, I easily get frustrated because the screw head quickly turns into fine metal shavings. This happens about a third of the time and usually by the time the screw is 2/3 of the way home it stops turning and I have to get a pair of vise grips to remove it and start again. I thought getting an impact driver would help but I am still having the problem. Any suggestions. Should I abandon Phillip head screws in favor of something else?
> 
> Jim


Man, I feel your pain. I've had better success, especially after I switched to impact driver, but I've certainly stripped my share. 

First, get in the habit of pre-drilling in hardwood. 

Second, buy a box of about 25 each #2 Philips bits by Dewalt or Milwaukee. Something aimed at the drywall installers. About the third time you slip a bit, throw that one away - it's edges are ruined. 

Try a box of Spax construction screws from the big box building supply center. They use a star driver bit, and a fresh bit comes in every pack. In addition, they have serrated threads that help cut their own way through the wood. 

Finally, technique is important. Once the screw is started good so you don't have to worry about it flipping over, increase the down-pressure on the bit. For me, that means my elbow must be directly above the screw. If you're plenty strong, you may be able to get by with alternate positions, but that's the only way I can bring enough pressure to bear to avoid slipping consistently with Philips bits. 

It does get better with practice.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Seldonman said:


> I may not use screw fasteners often in my wood working but when I do, such as building cabinets, I easily get frustrated because the screw head quickly turns into fine metal shavings. This happens about a third of the time and usually by the time the screw is 2/3 of the way home it stops turning and I have to get a pair of vise grips to remove it and start again. I thought getting an impact driver would help but I am still having the problem. Any suggestions. Should I abandon Phillip head screws in favor of something else?
> 
> Jim


predrill if need be...
impact driver...
use better grade of screws... 
switch to deck screws...
thousands of screws later...
no worries...


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Seldonman said:


> Rapidly Losing my head
> Jim


and Oliver has spares...


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## DonkeyHody (Jan 22, 2015)

Stick486 said:


> predrill if need be...
> impact driver...
> use better grade of screws...
> switch to deck screws...
> ...


Hey Stick, 
Do you ever Sleep? It's 2 in the Morning!


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## RMIGHTY1 (Nov 5, 2014)

I pre-drill in hardwood. Also in softwood if I am using 2-1/2' or 3" screws. Square head or starhead screws help. Star head are better. Try screws like these:

Amazon.com: Screw Products, Inc. YTX-08200-1 #8 X 2" Gold Star Interior Star Drive Wood Screws: Home Improvement

I use separate drills for each, e.g., drill bit, countersink and screw. Also, use an electric drill for the screw as they generally have more torque than the portable drills. I use either an electric drill or my DeWalt 14v for screwdriving. The others, I use el cheapo Harbor Freight portable drills:

http://www.harborfreight.com/18-volt-38-in-cordless-drilldriver-with-keyless-chuck-21-clutch-settings-68239.html

I just get tired of changing bits on big jobs even with a quick release chuck.

As already suggested, have a bag of spare driver tips at least 2 inches long. Lubricating screws with toilet bowl wax ring or such helps ($1 per ring). If still tough, use a slightly larger drill bit. We all have these same problems. These things really work. Give them a try. Saves splitting the hardwood too!

Cheers!!!


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

DonkeyHody said:


> Hey Stick,
> Do you ever Sleep? It's 2 in the Morning!


03:54 and you are up to ya know...


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Hi Jim

In hardwood you need to accurately pilot and countersink your holes, with some hard timbers like oak you need to drive a steel screw in with a drill/driver not an impact driver then back it out and replace it with the finish screw (old school trick) and you need to lubricate the threads of your brass/finish screw with something like candle wax or soft soap (ever been "soft soaped", now you know where the term originated). Also helps with Phillips screws if you keep the drill straight (can-out can cause chewed heads) and change your bits before they become too worn. Fortunately we don't have Phillips screws over here, apart from drywalls, instead we use Pozidrive/Supadrive which allow for an amount of "cam out" (driver out of line with screw), but you still have to ensure that your bits aren't worn (and avoid cheap Chinese bits, too)

On hardwoods impact drivers are really a bit of a no-no because of their tendency to snap the heads off screws when the screw bottoms out suddenly either in the pilot hole or in the countersunk start to the pilot hole. With stainless steel or brass screws this is even more likely than with standard steel screws, so unless you have a 3-speed model with soft impact/low speed leave it for 1st fixing (framing) - that's what they were designed to do

I install a lot of oak and ash commercially and I rarely have problems.

Regards

Phil


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Phil P said:


> Hi Jim
> 
> On hardwoods impact drivers are a bit of a no-no because of their tendency to snap the heads off screws when the screw bottoms out either in the pilot hole or in the countersunk start to the hole.
> 
> ...


if they are Chinese made screws or drywall screws...


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Stick486 said:


> if they are Chinese made screws or drywall screws...


Mainly, but not only Chinese. When you get down onto smaller sizes a 150Nm impact driver (18 volt) is asking a lot from a small screw when it stops dead in oak. If it's my own job I tend to buy Spax or Reisser screws (German) or Timco Velocity (British), but with architectural ironmongery you often have to use the supplied screws because of issues with the colour, finish, style, etc and when working for main contractors who provide the materials (including screws) you tend to be stuck with what you've got.


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## mgmine (Jan 16, 2012)

Sounds like hardware store drywall screws which are good for drywall but not hardwood.You might want to consider a pocket hole jig and if not at least pocket hole screws. Use fine thread for hardwood and standard ones for soft wood.


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

...you might also consider counterbore flat and use a flat screw rather than tapered...it might help to keep from splitting the piece with the potential of overtightening at the end of the travel. Especially good when screwing at the ends of pieces. Counterbore first with a flat wood drill then drill the center then insert flat screw...something like the pocket hole screws which are also self-tappers. At all costs avoid drywall screws as the heads might snap off if overtightened...would not suggest impact driver but plain ole drill instead...

Nick


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## Seldonman (Jul 30, 2013)

Thanks for all the advice. Yes, I pre-drilled the holes but that did not help! I will try wax and I think I need to go up to a better grade screw like a Robertson or square head fastener.

Jim
PS I know why Stick486 never sleeps and has all the correct answers, he is really a Cray Super Computer - LOL


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## chessnut2 (Sep 15, 2011)

All of the above. Pre drilling, wax, star or square drive screws. If I have to use Phillips screws, I tighten about 1/16th of a turn, then slightly backward to allow the bit to reseat itself in the screw head. Also, as above suggested, once you get it all the way in, remove it and put a brand new screw in if it's one that will ever have to be removed.


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## BOjr (Dec 1, 2012)

1. Don't use drywall screws in cabinetry. They aren't meant for that.

2. If you are working with hard wood you have to pre drill the wood. The first piece
Of woo that you are passing through should be drilled the same size as the shank of 
The screw. You do not want the threads of the screw digging into that piece of wood.
The second piece of wood should be pre drilled smaller than the shank of the screw. You want the threads of the screw to be grabbing that piece of wood and pulling it towards the 
First piece of wood.

Buck


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## Seldonman (Jul 30, 2013)

Sorry everyone, I think I need a great big Dope Slap! I was sitting on the, well never mind where I was sitting, when it hit me like a ton of bricks. Wait a minute, I just bought a Kreg Pocket hole jig a few months ago and a great big box of Kreg Screws. Why am I using the cheap Phillip heads screws when I could be using the Kreg Robertson style head screws? Lesson Learned!

Jim


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Seldonman said:


> Thanks for all the advice. Yes, I pre-drilled the holes but that did not help! I will try wax and I think I need to go up to a better grade screw like a Robertson or square head fastener.
> 
> Jim
> PS I know why Stick486 never sleeps and has all the correct answers, he is really a Cray Super Computer - LOL


I dont think Stick is really a mortal at all but an advanced artificial intelligence system .
Stick is actually anacronym for " String Theorem Intelligence Cybernetic Kernel " or something


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

My first piece of advise is to get rid of the Phillips and go to square or posi drive. I'm even starting to see square drive in drywall screws up here.

If you are using Phillips and having problems it might be because you are using the wrong size driver. Most people want to use a driver that is one size too small. Also, as mentioned drill the pilot and clearance holes first. Although our square drive screws will drive in without stripping, if the wood is very hard you can snap the heads off doing it.


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## todd628 (Mar 8, 2015)

*screws stripping*

Hey Jim,
The problem can be a number of different things or a combination.
1st if you are using common wood screws throw them in the trash, I am guessing you are not using drywall screws because the head usually breaks off.

2nd buy woodworking assembly screws, hard to find locally but on the net not so bad.
you can get the screws and drivers from mcfeelys.com or baersupply.com

3rd I always use 2 part driver bits, it is hard to tell but if you look real close you can see the tip is inserted into the hex shank. these bits are made with the tips extremly hard but not brittle but the hex shank is not hardened as much. I like to use 1" bits with a magnetic tip, it helps hold the screw in place while you are starting it.

4th If the bit starts to wear through it away and start a new one.

5th I like robertson or square drive the best, Loc drive would be my second choice, and then phillips drive in a pinch.

6th you must keep the driver and bit in line with the screw with good solid pressure. If the screw starts going crooked you either have to remove it or follow it at the same angle it decided to take.

7th if the screw is over 1 1/2" and in hardwood you must drill a pilot hole.

I hope this helps it is a lot of years of seeing the same mistakes.

Have a blessed day, Todd

ps) I am working on a screw order right now and have found that Richelieu Hardware has some great prices on screws right now.


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## Ghidrah (Oct 21, 2008)

square drive and star head screws


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## Dr Neon (Apr 15, 2010)

And last, but not least Bosch makes a drywall bit, the P2R, that has tiny little scores near the tip, which does a superior job on Phillips head screws. Pre-drill in hardwoods, soap or wax on the screw shank, a large, heavy variable speed 1/2" drill, everything clamped/braced in place, comfortable foot position (do this standing up), add the confidence you gain from practicing, and it will all work. Good luck.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Tim you should forget the Phillips and try the Robertson square drives instead. If you have a good quality screw and a good quality driver you'll snap the heads off before they strip. Robertson invented them in 1907 while he was working for Henry Ford. When he refused to hand the patent over to Henry then Phillips,who also worked for Ford, came up with the cross design. So by definition, Phillips are no more than second best to the Robertson.


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## papasombre (Sep 22, 2011)

DaninVan said:


> And rub the threads with a stub of candle wax. (No bell and book required...)


I do this always. I have a can with candle wax for this pourpose.


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## papasombre (Sep 22, 2011)

Hi, Jim.

Have you tried a yankee screwdriver?


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

papasombre said:


> Hi, Jim.
> 
> Have you tried a yankee screwdriver?


Isn't that a flat head?


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## AndyL (Jun 3, 2011)

RainMan1 said:


> Isn't that a flat head?


Or is it what we'd call a "Birmingham screwdriver"


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

No, that is an Irish screwdriver....

I agree that pre- drilling is required.Use the next size drill if you are still having the screws jam....


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

AndyL said:


> Or is it what we'd call a "Birmingham screwdriver"


was in Texas...
asked for a screwdriver...
somebuddy handed me one of those...


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## old coasty (Aug 15, 2014)

RainMan1 said:


> Isn't that a flat head?


Interchangeable bits, flat and phillips at least. Never saw Robertson or square.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Stick486 said:


> was in Texas...
> asked for a screwdriver...
> somebuddy handed me one of those...


Texas? Good job you didn't ask for a drill...


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

DaninVan said:


> Texas? Good job you didn't ask for a drill...


wonder what I would have got if I had asked for a hammer...


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

so reread the thread...

the Phillips drive was faulted...
is anyone aware that there are multiple Phillips sizes and types within sizes and types and that they are actually is called cruciform type drive sockets???
the bit used to drive one of these cruciforms needs to fit the socket... there is a style/type bit for every different type/style of cruciform socket...
mixing and not matching just leads to issues...

other issues are the poor quality of many of the screws that are on the market... buyer beware...
soft or brittle steels...
poorly made sockets...
poorly made screws that are not sharp or won't thread worth a flip...
*
you have:..*

Phillips...
Phillips II...
Phillips supra..
reed and prince...
number sizes... (0-4)..
recessed cross drive...
Quadrex...
combination...
Frearson... (reed and prince)
pozidrive...
pozidrive 1a...
plus a few others...

you get the idea...

so the manufacturer(s) issue(s) which can be easily remedied by wiser purchasing...
Chinese manufacture is auto suspect for me....
learn to mate the correct fasteners to the job.. 
skip using brittle drywall screws for other than drywall.. 
use the correct thread for the type/species of wood... (Hard - fine thread, soft - coarse thread) 
avoid using sheet metal screws instead of wood screws... most wood screws have tapered bodies/points and SM screws are straight bodied w/ blunted points..
ease up on operator failures.. figure out the best bit that fits for the screw on hand and improve installation techniques...

this don't use an impact driver doesn't wash in my book either...
been driving far too many USA made screws w/ an impact driver (not wrench) for too many years successfully...

so instead of over thinking this or compensating because of poor results...
learn the products/applications...
learn the better methods...

I'll put away the soap box now...


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

"wonder what I would have got if I had asked for a hammer..."

Mor'n likely a sandwich.


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## Seldonman (Jul 30, 2013)

Wow, this topic has sure stirred up a hornets net of activity. I think everyone had some good thought but, as usually, Stick nailed it. I notice that when I buy driver sets for my impact driver all the Phillips head drivers appear nearly identical and they are not numbered or marked in anyway. Maybe we can start a movement to get the manufacturers to mark there bits! On the other hand, maybe we should throw the Phillips screws out the window and use Robertson type fasteners. I think I am done with Phillips head and will try using my Kreg fasteners in the future.

Jim


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Seldonman said:


> Wow, this topic has sure stirred up a hornets net of activity. I think everyone had some good thought but, as usually, Stick nailed it. I notice that when *I buy driver sets for my impact driver all the Phillips head drivers appear nearly identical and they are not numbered or marked in anyway*. Maybe we can start a movement* to get the manufacturers to mark there bits!* On the other hand,* maybe we should throw the Phillips screws out the window* and use Robertson type fasteners. I think I am done with Phillips head and will try using my Kreg fasteners in the future.
> 
> Jim


the better manufactures do mark their bits...
google *'''made in America Phillips driver bits'''*
my wholesaler for screws also has American made bits...
bits should always fit the screw's socket snuggly...
stay away from made in China...
learn to recognize bit size and type visually.... 
buy better screws than what is at the BB's...

USA Made Fasteners - Mutual Screw & Supply

Driver Bits, Phillips, Alpha Made in USA - Product List - Sheffield Blades
American Industrial Manufacturing - Manufacturer of USA made premium screwdriver bits and accessories
Montana Brand Tools – Made in USA — 3pc 2" Phillips #2 Driver Bits (MB-62033)
Woodworker.com: American Made Driver Bits, 2 X 1 Phillips Driver Bit


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Check the picture out. That isn't a new driver by a long shot but it will still hold the screw on. Try doing that with a Phillips. Until you experience not having to hold the screw to start it you can't appreciate how much easier it is to use them. Just take all your Phillips head screws and toss them. They aren't worth the aggravation. You can buy square drive up here in 50 lb boxes just like you would nails.


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## BrianS (Nov 7, 2004)

I've got to agree with all the comments about Robertson screws... (square drive for you South of the border folks) I've been using them for a long time with good results and I try to stick exclusively to them.


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

jw2170 said:


> No, that is an Irish screwdriver....


Local variation, James. I call them Brummy or Birmingham screwdrivers as well..... Obviously when translated into Oz' there's something gets lost or changed

Regards

Phil


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## greyguru (Feb 16, 2014)

I hate Phillips screws with a passion. I swap them out when I can. I don't know if this is one of those Internet myths, but I've read that they were originally designed for an industrial process that REQUIRED the driver to cam-out (i.e stop driving) when the screw was driven home. Here in Canada, we're proud of our Robertson screwdrivers, which are the patented form for square head screws. They have a small taper, and the screw will sit happily on the driver at any angle while you line it up. Generic "square head" drivers may not conform as well. (Maybe there are patented Robertson screws as well; I may have the legal details wrong, but the bottom line is that any screw/driver combination where the fit is tight enough for the screw to sit on the driver will work much better than any loose fit.)


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## darsev (Feb 3, 2012)

DaninVan said:


> And rub the threads with a stub of candle wax. (No bell and book required...)


Or soap - that was my father's trick.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

greyguru said:


> I hate Phillips screws with a passion. I swap them out when I can. I don't know if this is one of those Internet myths, but I've read that they were originally designed for an industrial process that REQUIRED the driver to cam-out


Ford's early assembly line is where. Both Robertson and Phillips worked for Henry Sr. I'm not sure it was designed purposefully to cam out. It may have been an added benefit. Robertson wouldn't give Ford exclusive rights on his design but Phillips did on his if I remember right. Which might explain why it's still hard to find them down there even after 108 years.


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## RMIGHTY1 (Nov 5, 2014)

I understood that the Phillips head was made so that interior automotive finishes would have fewer scratches from less slippage of the standard flat vs. phillips head screw.


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## BrianS (Nov 7, 2004)

RMIGHTY1 said:


> I understood that the Phillips head was made so that interior automotive finishes would have fewer scratches from less slippage of the standard flat vs. phillips head screw.


Now THAT's the most logical legend I've heard... and, there just might be some truth in it as there are a whole lot of Phillips fasteners used in automotive interiors.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

BrianS said:


> Now THAT's the most logical legend I've heard... and, there just might be some truth in it as there are a whole lot of Phillips fasteners used in automotive interiors.


I think the Philips is more attractive in an automotive interior , if that makes any sense lol .
In car audio competitions they clock them for extra points


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Robertson ScrewsMysteries of Canada


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

That's interesting, Chuck. I sometimes come across square drive screws on pre-WWI manyfactured items of furniture, and nothing later, where things reverted to standard slotted head screws until after WWII when limited use was made of Phillips screws. They were even used on some older Norris planes (to hold the adjuster mechanism onto the frog). Your link explains why, thank you.

From the 1960s onwards we began to see Pozidrive screws here in Europe, a patented GKN development of the Phillips screw with a number of changes made to overcome shortfalls in the original Phillips design, such as the inability to work with any cam out. Pozidrive screws now dominate the European market, both for woodworking and motor vehicles (although Torx is gradually replacing it in the automotive field) whilst about the only place we see Phillips head screws is in drywall for some reason (but then if you are using a collated screwdriver, there's no reason to accommodate cam out)

Regards

Phil


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

I'm not sure what type tools Henry Ford Sr. used to drive the screws into his vehicles but with modern air driven tools you need only regulate the air pressure going to the tool to regulate how much force it can apply to the fastener so camming out shouldn't be an issue anymore and the torx will grip the driver much better as the idea is similar to square drive. It will also be much easier to get out down the road when it needs to be removed for repair work. Phillips are extremely hard to remove once they've rusted in. I have a hammer driven impact driver just for those screws.

With the Phillips head screw you need one hand to hold the screw on the driver and the other to hold the tool. With square drive or torx you can stick the screw onto the driver and then you have one hand free to hold something else which is a real asset when you are woodworking.


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## RMIGHTY1 (Nov 5, 2014)

I think this thread is all screwed up! :fie:


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## MT Born (Oct 29, 2014)

RainMan1 said:


> I dont think Stick is really a mortal at all but an advanced artificial intelligence system .
> Stick is actually anacronym for " String Theorem Intelligence Cybernetic Kernel " or something


Damn Rick that's funny!:lol:


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Kernal Stick is our CO?


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## N'awlins77 (Feb 25, 2011)

I use a bar of soap, in place of wax. Not only makes the screws go in easier, but keeps them fresh smelling!! ;o) But really, I'd go with the square head/pocket hole screws. But yes, I do use a bar of soap when I want to use Phillip screws, instead of the more expensive pocket hole screws.


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## DonkeyHody (Jan 22, 2015)

DaninVan said:


> Kernal Stick is our CO?


I tried soap. Works OK, but the screws taste really bad when I put them in my mouth . . .


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

"I tried soap. Works OK, but the screws taste really bad when I put them in my mouth . . ."

The upside is that your carpenters pouch doesn't smell like a dead beaver anymore!


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## N'awlins77 (Feb 25, 2011)

DonkeyHody said:


> I tried soap. Works OK, but the screws taste really bad when I put them in my mouth . . .


Yea, but it serves three purposes then. 1)lubes screw 2)makes screws smell fresh 3) cleans out potty mouth. :lol:


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

N'awlins77 said:


> Yea, but it serves three purposes then. 1)lubes screw 2)makes screws smell fresh 3) cleans out potty mouth. :lol:


#4... stains the wood...


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## todd628 (Mar 8, 2015)

For those of you that were not around when flat blade screws were used almost exclusively in woodwork, I for one loved phillips drive screws. However if you look through my screw inventory today you will find mostly sq dr screws, if you do find something else it was a miss-order or is really old stock.

Todd


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## bcfunburst (Jan 14, 2012)

*Screwey Reply*

I use mostly hardwoods in my woodworking. If I need to use screws anywhere it does require predrilling, without exception. Yes it takes longer; with much better results. My understanding of this hobby is that it takes a lot of perseverance and even stiff socks to get the results you want. Oh! I prefer using the Robertson Head screws for woodworking too. Hope you are at least having some fun.


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