# Saw marks in my cuts, my fault?, blade's fault?, saw's fault?, no idea...



## Artemix (Aug 10, 2014)

Hi, I'm kind of new to WW and after a while I started to wonder.. why do all my cuts have saw marks?, I attached some of them to illustrate better.

My blade is the one that comes as default with the DW745 (my saw), it is a 24 teeth blade).

Could it be that I'm doing something wrong?, I can't seem to avoid producing these marks on the wood, sometimes it doesn't matter, but other times I'd like to have a smoother cut.

P.S: doesn't seem to matter if my cut is cross grain or along the grain, I got the same result.


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

HI, just my 2 cents worth....

I would only use a 24 tooth blade for rough work like on a mitre saw.

You may need a blade with more teeth, if you can get one.

I am surprised that DW had that as a default blade on a table saw. See if you can get a 40 tooth general purpose blade.

Also, just a thought, slow down the feed rate slightly so the teeth get more time to act?


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Artemix said:


> Hi, I'm kind of new to WW and after a while I started to wonder.. why do all my cuts have saw marks?, I attached some of them to illustrate better.
> 
> My blade is the one that comes as default with the DW745 (my saw), it is a 24 teeth blade).
> 
> ...


blame the blade 1st and the saw 2nd...
get a better blade and get fussier w/ the saw set up...


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## Artemix (Aug 10, 2014)

I will, I never did any kind of adjustment or verification to the saw/blade, I will start looking into it. I hope there is nothing wrong with the saw , blades.. I can get another one.


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## MT Stringer (Aug 15, 2012)

For the past 2 years I have been using an Irwin Marples blade on my table saw. Actually, it has been on two different saws. It has 50 teeth and is used for ripping and cross cutting. Not very expensive either. I got it at one of the big box stores but I have since forgot which one.

Anyway, you should get pretty smooth cuts with it.

Good luck.


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## Botelho007 (Sep 23, 2012)

If you are using can be a reducing bushing. 
Reduction bushing cause fluctuations in the blade.

Best use blade with hole 5/8-Inch.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Blade makes all the diffeerence, and, I would check the alignment of the fence with the blade. If you've never checked it, it is likely out of adjustment. 

Less likely, but I'd check it out anyhow, check that the blade is aligned with the miter slot. Look up how to measure run out, which is a small wobble in the blade as it rotates. Clean the arbor and the surfaces that touch the blade before you check runout. You'll need some sort of gauge to get it exactly right.

This is in part what Stick was speaking about when he said be fussy with your setup. If you don't have a Wixey to check blade angle, I'd get one. Learning to be fussy about all these things Stick was pointing out changed the quality of my work considerably. Last year I replaced my old Delta contractor saw with a Laguna Fusion, and the difference in what it produces and what I had is amazing.

As for blades: For ripping I use a Freud LM74R010 10-Inch 30 Tooth TCG Glue Line Ripping Saw Blade, about $ 75 on Amazon. Smooth as the proverbial baby's behind. For fine cross cutting, I have an 80 tooth Freud blade that is particularly good on flat goods. 

For general use, I mount the Freud D1050X Diablo 10-Inch 50-tooth ATB Combination Saw Blade. Versatile blade makes clean cuts. I'm all Freud because the HD is the nearest store. Have also been thinking of trying an Irwin Marple blade, but good blades cost plenty and I'm happy with the Freuds mentioned.

Tuning up your tools takes some time, but the difference it makes is worthwhile learning how to do it. Caution, woodworking with well tuned tools is addicting.


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## rrrun (Jun 17, 2014)

Be particular with your set up, certainly. It doesn't matter what blade you are using if the set up isn't square. Then.... 

Throw away the standard blade and upgrade. I use the Woodworker II from Forrest Manufacturing for all of my cuts. I have 2 of them: when one is dull, it returns to the factory for sharpening. I then take the sharpened one off of the shelf and install it ... until the process repeats.


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## gmercer_48083 (Jul 18, 2012)

I second Stick


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## 8jmwoodie (Jan 2, 2014)

Make it a 40 tooth carbide tipped or even 60 tooth and check fence alignment


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## thomas1389 (Jan 4, 2012)

I use various Freud blades on my 10" General TS and have always had good results, ripping and cross cutting. Last year I had a blade sharpened and there I picked up another blade, which was touted as much better. It's a Japanese blade, KANAFUSA, 10" x .118 x 80 teeth. It's as close as getting to a hot knife as I can imagine. Odd thing, though, I don't use it much because I want to "save" it. I have yet to shake this character trait of saving things for the good stuff I may do in the future. Get a decent blade and use it. That's what it's for.


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## Artemix (Aug 10, 2014)

I was actually kind of trying to avoid this because.. specially me that I'm new to woodworking, it's probably the hardest thing to do, not knowing much about saws/blades, fine tuning a saw is like trying to run before walking.

But, I was going to get another blade for sure, what do you think about this:

"http://articulo.mercadolibre.com.ar/MLA-523721135-disco-sierra-circular-freud-para-corte-de-madera-y-paneles-_JM#D[S:HOME,L:RECOMITEM-CORE-UNO-START,V:4]"

(But in 10" instead of 12")

Here there aren't many options to choose from, that is if I understand correctly a good quality general purpose blade.


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## CharleyL (Feb 28, 2009)

To me, when I see marks like that it is coming from a blade that has teeth that are not directly in line with the rest of the teeth on the blade. This can be a problem with the blade itself or from a problem with the saw's arbor. Try this, run the saw and shut it off, while watching the blade teeth closely as the blade slows to a stop. You will likely see a side to side shift of the blade teeth just before the blade stops turning. This can be caused by many things. First try another blade and run the same visual test on it. If the shift is different, then the blade may be the cause and each of your blades has a problem. If you get the same tooth shift, then the problem is more likely in the arbor or blade washers. A problem here is amplified by the distance to the teeth on the blade, so an error of only a few thousandths of an inch can become 60 thousandths of an inch at the teeth. You can also try loosening the blade nut and rotating the blade on the arbor by 45 degrees and then re-tightening the blade nut. Then do the visual inspection of the teeth as the blade coasts to a stop again. Is it different this time? If it is the problem is more likely in the arbor or blade washers. If it is the same the problem is more likely in the blade. Sometimes it's possible to rotate the blade on the arbor several times by 15-45 degrees each time and find a "sweet spot" where a slight error in both the blade and the arbor tend to cancel each other out. If you find such a position, putting an alignment mark on both the blade and the arbor will allow you to remove and replace the blade without loosing the "sweet spot" setting. You may need to do this with each blade that you use. Life is not perfect and neither are table saws and saw blades, but you should be able to reduce the problem to a manageable level. Completely eliminating these scratches will be nearly impossible. They make joiners for that.

Charley


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## Artemix (Aug 10, 2014)

CharleyL said:


> To me, when I see marks like that it is coming from a blade that has teeth that are not directly in line with the rest of the teeth on the blade. This can be a problem with the blade itself or from a problem with the saw's arbor. Try this, run the saw and shut it off, while watching the blade teeth closely as the blade slows to a stop. You will likely see a side to side shift of the blade teeth just before the blade stops turning. This can be caused by many things. First try another blade and run the same visual test on it. If the shift is different, then the blade may be the cause and each of your blades has a problem. If you get the same tooth shift, then the problem is more likely in the arbor or blade washers. A problem here is amplified by the distance to the teeth on the blade, so an error of only a few thousandths of an inch can become 60 thousandths of an inch at the teeth. You can also try loosening the blade nut and rotating the blade on the arbor by 45 degrees and then re-tightening the blade nut. Then do the visual inspection of the teeth as the blade coasts to a stop again. Is it different this time? If it is the problem is more likely in the arbor or blade washers. If it is the same the problem is more likely in the blade. Sometimes it's possible to rotate the blade on the arbor several times by 15-45 degrees each time and find a "sweet spot" where a slight error in both the blade and the arbor tend to cancel each other out. If you find such a position, putting an alignment mark on both the blade and the arbor will allow you to remove and replace the blade without loosing the "sweet spot" setting. You may need to do this with each blade that you use. Life is not perfect and neither are table saws and saw blades, but you should be able to reduce the problem to a manageable level. Completely eliminating these scratches will be nearly impossible. They make joiners for that.
> 
> Charley


Now that you mention it, yeah, I noticed that the blades "wobble" when it's stoping, I calculated more or less how much, and it is aprox 1mm of total movement. I think this could be the problem.

I will do what you said about removing the blade and installing it again to check if something improved.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

I no longer assume that a machine comes from the factory properly set up. In fact, I assume the opposite. First, make sure the saw blade is parallel to the miter slots. Then adjust the fence so that it is parallel to the miter slots. It may also help to use blade stabilizer washers. I used to use a thin kerf Freud and it cut more smoothly with them. Playing with the fence adjustment may help if nothing else works.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

*Cmt?*



Artemix said:


> I was actually kind of trying to avoid this because.. specially me that I'm new to woodworking, it's probably the hardest thing to do, not knowing much about saws/blades, fine tuning a saw is like trying to run before walking.
> 
> But, I was going to get another blade for sure, what do you think about this:
> 
> ...


Can you get your hands on CMT blades, in Argentina?
Herramientas para fresadoras y para taladros, herramientas para taladradoras y para la madera - CMT herramientas


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

DaninVan said:


> Can you get your hands on CMT blades, in Argentina?
> Herramientas para fresadoras y para taladros, herramientas para taladradoras y para la madera - CMT herramientas


or Freud???


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## Goldenhammer4 (Aug 30, 2014)

Goldenhammer4 here I agree with all who have responded to the burning blade scenario tune up of saw is very important and goes hand in hand with type of blade for varying types of material not to get into specifics but woodworking is an art and an artist uses different brushes to achieve different strokes don't think one type of saw blade will do it all do your homework match blade to material good luck


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## TRIPS (Jul 29, 2012)

Artemix said:


> Hi, I'm kind of new to WW and after a while I started to wonder.. why do all my cuts have saw marks?, I attached some of them to illustrate better.
> 
> My blade is the one that comes as default with the DW745 (my saw), it is a 24 teeth blade).
> 
> ...


 My only suggestion is to purchase a blade that is slightly thicker --- if the blade dia. is approx. 150mm or 6" & has a kerf of only 2mm rather go for a 2.5mm as the 2mm will give too much wobble, also try to get a blade with the max. number of teeth this will give a much smoother cut.


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

The first thing I check on a new saw is the arbor shaft and flange. You only have to true one once. It takes a long time to true it. I set the arbor 90 without a blade. Then I mount a sharpening stone at 90 degrees to a miter gauge. Then I start the motor and hold light pressure.

I've seen Delta Techs true them using an abrasive grinding bit for a die grinder, mounted in a router... Saw running, while the router is running... But I've always been worried above taking off too much with that method.

I'm big on saw tuning. Can't emphasize enough on that. A great blade can only do so much on a saw that is out of tune. You need to have a baseline sometime.

Then you can take advantage of a good blade. I agree that there are excessive saw marks in the cut. You can get a better cut, but you are only going it get so good with a 24 tooth 10" blade. Even with the saw in tune, you are only going to get it so smooth with a course type blade. Usually 24 tooth is for course ripping on rough-length cuts. Thickness of the plate does matter. 

Was that stock blade a thin-kerf? (Thinking it might have been.) To do a quick check of how things lay, Unplug your saw. Put your blade at 90, while all the way up. Clamp a piece of scrap to your miter gauge, with the scrap just touching the blade lightly. Rotate the blade by hand and watch how the blade meets that piece of scrap... Adjust the piece of scrap so the part of the blade just misses the blade. That will tell you how the combination of things add up... and how far out it is. A feeler gauge will measure just how much. I could say do it with a dial indicator, but for a quick check, this inexpensive method will work.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Pablo is in Argentina, guys. Whole 'nother World of what's actually available, in Latin America.
Freud apparently...
Wood Tools SRL - SIERRAS EN HM


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## Artemix (Aug 10, 2014)

Yes, we have Freud here, but only the Italian branch of the brand, and not the american one.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

So, basically, aFreud not? 
Out of curiosity, Pablo, what's wrong with the Italian version? Probably uses German steel and Carbide(?)... _ that's a good thing!_


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## al m (Dec 13, 2012)

I will say I agree with those who say tune your saw,very important
I will differ with the statement generally saying more teeth is better.
Not necasarily .there is no general use blade that will do a good job on everything
Get a ripping blade,40 teeth or less for smooth rips,and a cross cut blade,60 teeth or more for cross cuts.
Number of teeth need will vary with depth of cut and type of wood
A 80 tooth blade will not give a smooth rip in 8/4 maple etc
Blade must suit the application


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Wow! Lucky You Guys, Pablo!!
Robert Bosch LLC. - Media Center
That's a Hell of a combination. (In a really good way)


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Artemix said:


> Yes, we have Freud here, but only the Italian branch of the brand, and not the American one.


Freud is all Italian, even the American products ...

Bosch owns Freud...


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## Artemix (Aug 10, 2014)

DaninVan said:


> So, basically, aFreud not?
> Out of curiosity, Pablo, what's wrong with the Italian version? Probably uses German steel and Carbide(?)... _ that's a good thing!_


Nothing, actually I don't know much about Freud and their products.

The only thing I know, is that the dado blades are american (or at least they are fabricated there), therefore I can't buy them here.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Artemix said:


> Nothing, actually *I don't know much about Freud and their products.*
> 
> The only thing I know, is that the dado blades are American (or at least they are fabricated there), therefore I can't buy them here.


no worries about Freud, their products or CS.. I like my Freuds...

how about that on the dado blades...
the label on mine says Austria on one and Italy on the other...


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## al m (Dec 13, 2012)

Going to add,as far as my comments above,I keep several blades,one ripping blade is indeed 24 tooth and gives a smooth glueline cut on 8/4 maple,Chinese blade with German carbide


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

I agree with Al--

For my table saw I have 5-1/2" to 12" blades, 12 to 110 teeth. Seems like I 'm continually changing blades to suit what I want to do. For me, that is normal and seems the natural thing to do. Most my blades are thick plated, instead of thin kerf... but for the thin kerf's I use blade stiffeners/stabilizers. I do have a preference for commercial grade blades.

Tooth count is relative to the blade diameter. A 40 tooth 12 diameter blade may be considered as an aggressive blade... while the same tooth count on a 5-1/2" blade would be a finer cut. It goes more like a Bandsaw where you have so many teeth per inch, blade speed, feed rate, material thickness... and material density. I have formulas (some that I've posted in the reference section here), but sometimes you just use a rule of thumb as a guideline, but have to go with your gut and the "feel" of the cut.

I do not feel there is a catch-all blade for everything, for all uses, for all users, for all saws. I believe in using sharp quality blades, that are right for the job at hand. But the best blade can only do as good as the tune of the saw (and the saw itself) will let it. Then again, a funny thing about blades is that one brand and model might do great on one saw model and not as well on another. I don't want to speculate why. But I've told apprentices that they need to experiment and find what works best for themselves.

Smooth Cuts? Saw in tune, good blade that is suited to the material, consistent feed rate... Material feeders are not affordable to many, but do have their own uses. They do demonstrate that consistent feed rate does make a difference.


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

I have the same set up as Tom, Freud Glueline for ripping and Freaud 80tooth for cross cut, Perfect I am happy with them.

If you can't get good blades, next best thing is run them through a jointer like we used to do in the old days when we didn't have all these fancy glu-poo zillion teeeth blades, and before that hand planes were the tools of the day after you handsaw ripped the board.

Herb


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