# Help deciding between cnc or lazer?



## lions6 (Sep 28, 2015)

Hello, I am new to the forum. My name is Mike. I am in the very early stage of research between a benchtop cnc machine or lazer engraver. I dont have any experiance with either so that is why I am here asking questions. We have an ETSY shop and I make wood crosses and other wood jewelry. I have had a lot of inquiries about carving scriptures, names, or other items on our wood crosses. We also do leather cuffs and have the same inquiries. Our daughter also has an ETSY shop doing dog accessories. Her business really took off when she started embroydering names on collars so I would like to personalize some of our items. I would like to do names on dog tags for our daughters shop as well. I really need to know more about the real difference between a bench top cnc machine and a lazer engraving machine. If there is anyone out there with experience on either of these can you please help school me? Like I said I have not used either type of machine and really dont know much about either type of machine. I am just hoping that someone can help me gain knowledge about either or both of them. I am looking at small bench top units that would cost under $600.00 I dont even know if they come with software or what is needed. Any help would be great. I can add details as needed to gain education about this. Thanks, Mike. (lions6) TheLotusShop on etsy.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

I have a laser engraver /cutter , and if it's engraving you want then I think it would be the ticket . I spent over $10,000 after tax shipping though , but it's a 2'by 3' table with an 80 watt laser . For engraving you will only need a 35 watt tube which is a less expensive machine for sure , but I've never seen anything in the $600 range .

I'm sure others will have some suggestions for you . Welcome to the forum


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## The Hobbyist (Apr 25, 2015)

You get what you pay for. Look at the Epilog laser systems and the others as well. Steer clear of the Chinese CO2 lasers. You can get something that will do "something" for several thousand dollars, but to get a REAL machine with a REAL laser, you are looking at $28-50K

Laser is terrific for fine detail. Routers are okay for many things, but not for engraving dog tags. 

You could look at the X-Carve kit CNC tables, but even them you are upwards of $3,000.00 for anything decent.

$600 will not get you into EITHER a laser OR a router CNC table.


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## The Hobbyist (Apr 25, 2015)

lions6 said:


> I am looking at small bench top units that would cost under $600.00


Would you post a link to anything you are looking at in the $600.00 range? I can't imagine what you could possibly get for that little cash. :no:


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Mike, the Piranha FX might be a good solution for you. It works as a CNC carving machine, laser and 3D printer but I believe it starts at $3,600.00.


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## Fasteddie58 (May 18, 2014)

I saw a Laser demo this past Saturday and it seemed to operate easily but is $3800 before taxes. The imports that Automation Technologies sells in Chicago are less expensive but still about $2000. I very much doubt your will find anything worth while in $600 range.


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## IRestore (Mar 28, 2015)

*I have both, but sounds like a Laser is what you are looking for*

I have both, both are entry level units but considerably higher than $600.
I have a 40 Watt Full Spectrum Laser & have been very pleased with it. I just saw that Rockler has started carrying these. They are offering free Demos in the Phoenix Store.

I looked at some cheaper models on the internet before I purchased mine but was frightened off by the reviews I was seeing.

My CNC machine is the Oliver 13" intelliCarve CNC Carving Machine that I bought from Woodcraft. It is the smaller size, but works well form most of my projects.

Good luck!


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## The Hobbyist (Apr 25, 2015)

MAYBE it was a typo? He has not returned to respond, so maybe he meant to type "$6,000.00" ???


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## fixtureman (Jul 5, 2012)

I would contact John at Automation and see if he would give you a demo on the small laser. I went there and he did a demo on the material that I was going to use and gave me some training. He is easy to work with


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## lions6 (Sep 28, 2015)

Thanks for all of the help. The systems I was looking at are the 40w lazer systems that are chinese. They are listed mostly on ebay and amazon. They are small and yes the price is under 1000.00 mostly around 400-600 bucks. From the responses I have seen here it does seem like you get what you pay for. In my circumstance I cant really spend the kind of money you all are talking about. It does sound like the lazer machine may be best for what I am looking for. There is a competitor of mine on Etsy that also makes a lot of wood cross necklaces as well as other types of pendants. He lists his as hand carved and I think he must be using either a lazer or cnc machine to cut them out. I dont really think that is fair as I cut all mine on a scroll saw and shape them on a 1x30 inch sander as well as a 6x48 inch sander then I finish them all off by hand with a file and a lot of sand paper. In a shorter period of time his shop has overtaken ours and we think it may be due to the use of either the lazer or cnc machine. I know like I originally posted our daughters shop (where she makes dog collars ect) really took off once she was able to personalize them with names using an embroidery machine. I was hoping I could get an inexpensive desktop machine that we could start personalising our stuff to maybe take back some buisness from our competitors. Does anyone know if there are any places in Boise Idaho to maybe get some demo of either type of these machines? I know we do have a woodcraft in Boise. I saw that someone mentioned the chinese machines as not being very good. I am sure they are not that great but would it be something that could be a starter machine without spending a ton of money that may at least get us started? I would continue to cut them out like I already do as I want to keep the style of hand carving them rather than lying to people by cutting them out with a lazer or cnc and still telling people that they are hand carved. The whole purpose for this research is really to be able to personalize them. Maybe it would help if you all could see what we do. I dont think this forum will let me put the actual url until I have posted about 6 posts but if you go to ETSY you can search for The Lotus Shop in handmade. It will be obvious when you find us as we mostly sell crosses from hardwood and my wife sells crochet items (dish cloths and scrubbies). I am looking for something that can put a name, scripture, date, ect on a small cross necklace or leather cuff. I have had a lot of interest in personalization and in the past I did use letter and number stamps to put a date on a cross but since they are so small by the time I lacquer them the lacquer fills in the indentations of the numbers ect. I am slowly working on changing from lacquer to buffing and waxing them but it is soooooo much more hand sanding than the lacquer. If anyone is interested in looking at the machines I have been looking at they are usually listed on ebay and amazon. I just typed in "portable lazer engraver" to search. Can anyone tell me how fine of font these types of machines can etch or cut? And to cut out say a pendant of a cross or dolphin, wolf, or other shapes is it being done on a cnc or a lazer machine? Thanks so much for the help so far. I am also sorry that I was not back here sooner to check the responses. I was camping for a week for my 50th birthday where I cought a lot of nice trout. I will check in much more often. Today was also the first time the forum sent me an email to tell me that I had responses. Thanks again, Mike. ( I live near Boise Idaho in Mountain Home Idaho ).


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

N/a I have a Chinese laser and it was fine for the first few years . I believe it only gave me issues because I had it in an unheated garage for the past 5 years and I'm wondering if moisture from the humidity changes got into the tube .
Stan's on the forum here too and has the same Logilase machine as mine but a bigger tube and his has been problem free that I'm aware of . 

I bought mine from Mike in Toronto . His company is called Logilase and maybe he's got a used smaller laser he could sell you ?


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## 4DThinker (Feb 16, 2014)

If you aren't in a rush to get your laser cutter, then a new one is coming out that might be worth a look. Go to Glowforge.com.

I've ordered one. If you decide to order one look around as there are $100 discount links around. Everyone that has already ordered one was given a link that if used by someone else will get them $100 off and a $100 discount for the link provider.


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## The Hobbyist (Apr 25, 2015)

Lions6 ... a couple of things.

First, your keyboard has a spacebar. Please USE IT. Your long posts with no break in them make it difficult to read.

Next, you make some nice items, but it is up to you to improve your production methods and keep your costs down. I don't know about the people you call your "competitors," but if they are selling more inventory than you are, then you need to find a way to make your product with less time and energy invested into each piece.

The word "handmade" means different things to different people. There is no great overload that watches companies to make sure that everything they make is manufactured by hand. Handmade (to some) means that a person made it, rather than a large factory. Using a laser or CNC table to make a product does not necessarily eliminate the "handmade" designation.

Don't worry about your competitors. Just make a good product, price it correctly, and people will buy it. If you are focusing on taking business away from your competitor, you are in business for the wrong reason. When you go fishing on a lake, you never catch ALL of the fish. You catch what you can, while the commercial fisherman uses his large nets and fancy equipment to haul in more fish than you could possibly catch in a day. But YOU STILL CATCH FISH!

Perhaps raise your prices. since your products are truly "handmade" you can charge more. Unfortunately, you cannot force people to see additional value in your product though. Some people consider price alone, and there are always companies that will make something cheaper and sell it for less money than you can. Those who consider price alone are their lawful prey.

How long does it take you to make one of these crosses, ALL time included? Lets start there ....




.


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## The Hobbyist (Apr 25, 2015)

Also, are there one-of-a-kind, meaning that you hand form each one? If so, you can charge more for them. If you are using a pattern and you replicate the various crosses you make, then they are worth a bit less. I saw your ETSY site, and I did not see any indication that there are "One-of-a-Kind" creations.


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## lions6 (Sep 28, 2015)

Thanks for all the additional info. I guess it takes me quite a bit of time to make each one. Sure it is easy to cut them out on a scroll saw and sand them into shape but the real time is in hand sanding and finishing. Including drying time for the lacquer it takes quite a few days to complete one. 
I guess we could raise our prices although we have always tried to keep them affordable for people. The joy our pieces seem to bring people is incredible. Some of the feedback we get is really cool to read. I ran into a lady last week that told me she buried her mother with one of my crosses in her hand as she loved it so much. 

As far as my competitors goes it is really not trying to steal away their sales as I understand that there are a lot of fish in the pond. It is more that they claim to hand carve each piece and when I look at their stuff I can tell that they are using something more to make them than hand carving them. (cnc or lazer). 

I can see the point about items being made in a factory vs being handmade and maybe I need to let some of that go. 

With that in mind I need to get back to the original inquiry of the cnc vs lazer. I dont know if anyone has looked on ebay and amazon at the lazer machines I have been looking at. I would like to start out with something affordable to see if I can use it properly before I go spending several thousand bucks on a proper machine. Will a lazer machine cut wood like the items in our etsy shop? Will it do some engraving? Do you have to use patterns in the software? What software is best? I have seen some that use corel draw and some with moshi draw. I have corel draw 12 already so I am a little bit familiar with it but I have never seen the other ones. Mike.


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## lions6 (Sep 28, 2015)

PS, I tried to use the space bar a little more often in my last post. I get it and thanks for the critique. I will try to remember that to make it easier to read. Mike.


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## The Hobbyist (Apr 25, 2015)

lions6 said:


> PS, I tried to use the space bar a little more often in my last post. I get it and thanks for the critique. I will try to remember that to make it easier to read. Mike.


Actually, I was wrong. I stated "space bar" but I MEANT "The ENTER Key" (aka The RETURN Key, aka "The Carriage Return")

White space makes it a lot easier to read. :grin:


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## lions6 (Sep 28, 2015)

Ok enter key. Now can we get back to my questions? I guess I really need help understanding how each type of machine works and what it can do. Lazer vs cnc. 

Can I cut out of hardwood using a lazer. Lets say I wanted to cut out a cross. Will either machine actually cut it out and shape it? 

What about the software? What type does either use? 

Can I engrave onto wood, metal, leather with either one? 

What would be the difference between the wattage of the lazers?


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## herrwood (Apr 19, 2014)

First I need to say tha t I do not sell any woodworking products. There does not seem to me to be enough profit considering time spent. Besides if I work at it it take the fun out.
However as you are involved in selling craft items in today's market with things like cnc and laser technology at reasonable costs., and yes under 10,000 for business equipment is reasonable.
You can expect to see more of your competition use modern technology so you have to make the investment. It's like trying to run a mail order business without a internet connection.
Just my 2 cents and not worth much more.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

lions6 said:


> Ok enter key. Now can we get back to my questions? I guess I really need help understanding how each type of machine works and what it can do. Lazer vs cnc.
> 
> Can I cut out of hardwood using a lazer. Lets say I wanted to cut out a cross. Will either machine actually cut it out and shape it?
> 
> ...


To cut wood with a laser your going to need quite a big tube . My 80 watt does cut threw this special model airplane wood but it's only 1/8" thick . Will only go into mdf about a 1/16" at full power and 30% speed .
If it's engraving your after most lasers should work fine on the majority of materials , even a 35 watt


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## The Hobbyist (Apr 25, 2015)

lions6 said:


> Ok enter key. Now can we get back to my questions? I guess I really need help understanding how each type of machine works and what it can do. Lazer vs cnc.
> 
> Can I cut out of hardwood using a lazer. Lets say I wanted to cut out a cross. Will either machine actually cut it out and shape it?
> 
> ...


Disclaimer: I know NOTHING about laser systems, but I have been looking into them for a few months now.

What a laser will cut is largely dependent on the density and the consistency of the material. For instance, a 150 watt laser will cut 1/2 birch plywood IF the interior of the plywood is solid and consistent. If there are spaces and air pockets and voids in the plywood, it will not do well.

Lasers start at around 30 watts for the "old technology" Chinese CO2 lasers which seem inexpensive for what you get, but the better lasers "Made In America" are a different technology, and there are two types. One is for cutting metals and the other is for non-metals. 

Remember, you get what you pay for.

I looked at the Epilog lasers and the Chinese counterparts, and tthe differences quickly became clear when the salesmen started talking.

The Chinese lasers CAN do many of the things the American lasers can do, but not at the speeds and the wattage ratings of the equivalent American variety.

I first drooled over the big "Full Spectrum" laser table for $25K, until I started looking into the specs. There is a *reason* that the American Made KERN HSC100 with a 150 watt laser is $150,000.00 while the Full Spectrum Chinese table with a 150 watt laser is $25,000.00 for the same _size_. The capabilities of the two machines are worlds apart.

Laser through hardwood? Maybe 1/4" thickness, at best. Unless you are going to spend the money for a 600 watt laser or something in that power range. Cutting metals requires a different type of laser. Very thin sheet metal can be cut with normal lasers, but if you want to cut through 12 ga. steel, you're going to need some serious power.

Ask a LOT of questions, and do a lot of comparisons. Education is expensive, but a lack of knowledge when purchasing a laser can cost you a lot more.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

herrwood said:


> First I need to say tha t I do not sell any woodworking products. There does not seem to me to be enough profit considering time spent. Besides if I work at it it take the fun out.
> However as you are involved in selling craft items in today's market with things like cnc and laser technology at reasonable costs., and yes under 10,000 for business equipment is reasonable.
> You can expect to see more of your competition use modern technology so you have to make the investment. It's like trying to run a mail order business without a internet connection.
> Just my 2 cents and not worth much more.


a lot of my machines are 40/50's vintage...
no latest greatest anything...
three generation old hand tools...
I cost what I cost and if I don't fit your budget there are many out there that will.... 
all w/o an internet connection...


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

*Dear Cherished Customer....*

Thank you for hiring us. We look forward to saving you a lot of money compared with all the other contractors who submitted quotes. As for your inquiry as to how we can charge so much less than everyone else, I welcome this opportunity to explain how we operate. You see, unlike many of our competitors, we don't believe in paying top dollar to employees. There are so many people looking for work these days, it's pretty easy to find some desperate enough to work for far less than they're worth. If they start complaining, we just get rid of them and find replacements in a few days. Most jobs get disrupted just a little bit. Besides, we don't look to hire the best workers. Most of the work required for your project can be performed by people with almost no skills. (In fact, if you care to do some of it yourself, I can save you even more money.) Heck, I've learned that some of the best employees don't even speak English. They work cheapest of all and never sass the boss. Most of the time they can figure out my hand signals telling them what to do. If anything complicated does arise, that's what I'm here for. It may take a few days for me to get around to check out your job, but with all the money you're saving, I'm sure you won't mind the wait. 

Not only don't we pay our employees very much, we offer no benefits, because that adds way too much to overhead. Our employees know that if they get sick and can't work, they don't make any money. So you can rest assured that they'll show up at your job even if they come down with pneumonia or TB. I'll tell you something else -- our installers and technicians work fast. A lot of contractors tell their crews to hang around jobs forever making sure everything is just right. Experienced as I am, I know exactly when something is just good enough to get by. That's when we call it a job. Think of all the money you save with us not worrying about frilly details. 

Another thing is, we know how to cut through all that government paperwork. Most rules and regulations make no sense. For instance, everyone in the construction industry knows that hardly anyone ever gets caught working without a permit or trade licenses. The money we save by avoiding these technicalities gets passed on to you. We also cut corners with code requirements & standards at every opportunity. Standards do nothing but jack up the price of a project. By substituting cheaper materials and ignoring labor-intensive procedures required to meet code, we are able to charge much less than those suckers who operate by the book. Insurance is another area where we realize big savings. How many jobs do you ever hear of where there's a payoff? Insurance is nothing but money down the drain. If something does go wrong, you can always sue us. What more protection do you need than that? 

I'll let you in on another inside secret. We cleverly save you money by not paying all of our bills. Our company has accounts at about a dozen supply houses around town, and we never pay for material unless we absolutely have to. Most wholesalers will carry us for 60 or 90 days before they start nagging me about payment. Then I can usually string them along for another few months with promises or token payments. If one supplier cuts us off, I simply take my business to the others and go through the same routine. It's a game that real sharp contractors like myself have refined to an art form. You ought to be proud to have your job done by an artist! 

Something else that separates us from the pack is that we're not a bunch of namby-pambies hung up on safety concerns. Accidents will happen, so why bother trying to prevent them! Some contractors worry more about their trades people getting hurt than they do about getting the job done fast. Believe me, hard hats, eye shields and work gloves only slow people down. So we don't supply those things to our workers. Here's where we gain another advantage by hiring a bunch of people who don't speak English. They can't read warning signs that might make them too cautious. This saves you money. 

Also, I'm sure you noticed that when you called me you reached an answering machine, not some secretary costing over $10,000 a year. Sorry that it took me so long to get back to you, but that's the price you pay for saving money. You may have also noticed that our trucks are run-down, our tools worn out and this letter is being written on a 1950s vintage manual typewriter. Our philosophy is to make do with whatever is already paid for, no matter how old. That's another reason we can charge you so much less. 

Nor do we waste money on association dues and educational seminars like some of our high-fluting competitors. Believe me, I've been in this business for more than 20 years and I learned everything anyone needs to know in my first two years of apprenticeship. If it was good enough for my daddy and granddaddy, it's good enough for you. By the way, did I mention that we guarantee our work.. Just make sure you catch what's wrong before the job is done, because at the prices we charge, we can't afford any call backs. Thank you once again for letting us do your work. We're happy to be the low bidder. I'm sure you'll get your money's worth. 


Sincerely, The Low Bidder


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## herrwood (Apr 19, 2014)

Stick486 said:


> a lot of my machines are 40/50's vintage...
> no latest greatest anything...
> three generation old hand tools...
> I cost what I cost and if I don't fit your budget there are many out there that will....
> all w/o an internet connection...


If it works for you that is good and depending on what you produce that may still be a option.
But the question was based towards the craft markets and where today many are using routers and scroll saws which replaced coping saws and files. The newer cnc machines will replace routers and scroll saws in the competitive mass produced "home made" markets you going to need have the equipment to make any real money.


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## lions6 (Sep 28, 2015)

Well, that is all good advice. I have been re-thinking this whole thing and I have been looking at the new wave technology unit called the Piranaha FX model. It is a cnc that comes with a lazer head as well as a 3d printer head for about 3200.00 bucks. It looks like it will do everything I need. It is much more than I want to spend but it looks like the best machine for my application so far. It comes with VCarve Desktop software. Is this easy to learn and use? Is is something I can get help with on a forum? Mike.


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## The Hobbyist (Apr 25, 2015)

lions6 said:


> Well, that is all good advice. I have been re-thinking this whole thing and I have been looking at the new wave technology unit called the Piranaha FX model. It is a cnc that comes with a lazer head as well as a 3d printer head for about 3200.00 bucks. It looks like it will do everything I need. It is much more than I want to spend but it looks like the best machine for my application so far. It comes with VCarve Desktop software. Is this easy to learn and use? Is is something I can get help with on a forum? Mike.


Vectric.com has a forum for V-Carve users, but yes, of course you can get help here. and it will be worth every dime you pay for it, and more! :wink:

$3,200.00 for a CNC router AND a laser WITH V-carve ...?? I must warn you that you won't be getting much. Do a LOT of research on that package before you plunk down $3.2K. I can't imagine that the laser is anything worthy of serious consideration at that price.


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## fixtureman (Jul 5, 2012)

RainMan1 said:


> To cut wood with a laser your going to need quite a big tube . My 80 watt does cut threw this special model airplane wood but it's only 1/8" thick . Will only go into mdf about a 1/16" at full power and 30% speed .
> If it's engraving your after most lasers should work fine on the majority of materials , even a 35 watt


Something is not right with your unit. I have a 60 watt that I can cut 1/4" MDF with it


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