# Guide Bushings



## rberry (Jun 6, 2008)

I notice that the bushings offered by both Porter Cable and Bosch are made from some kind of bright metal (stainles steel?) while most made by independent marketers are made of brass. Which is better?

Bob


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Bob

This just my 2 cents 

Brass is soft so to speak unlike steel one that's plated...if the bit hits the steel it's gone but if it hits the brass ,it's good chance the bit is OK..

You don't want anything like steel next to the bit, that's why you must take great care when you are switching out the bits, you don't want to kick one...and turn it into a paper weight.... 

One more point about brass guides, they will stay in place unlike the steel plated ones,,, the plating is like a lub job so to speak and when you have brass on brass they hold,,,,just like pipe fitting....they give just a bit and lock on...

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## Hamlin (Dec 25, 2005)

Hi,

You want to get brass guides.


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## rberry (Jun 6, 2008)

Thanks bobj3 and Hamlin,

I just ordered the brass.


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Brass is the best choice for most members. Steel bushings are best for rough construction and made to withstand more abuse.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

I hate to disagree with learned members, but I have been routing since 1974 and whilst I do have a few brass guides the majority are mild steel and I have NEVER had any sort of problem, I am convinced that this thing with Brass is some sort of fetish.
Incidentally, having honed my routing skills at Template Tom's school of routing where there were mutiple's of every conceivable size and not a Brass one to be seen.


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Harry, the steel bushings you use attach with screws and are a very different item from the type we use with a threaded shaft and nut. Porter Cable which sets the world standard in routing manufactures steel bushings with the threaded shaft and nut. Experience has shown that the brass bushings do not vibrate loose the way the steel bushings do. This is the reason most aftermarket manufacturers produce brass. There is the added argument that it is safer to use around bits, we know steel can chip carbide where as brass can not. This is not to say one way is better than another. Bosch manufactures steel bushings which do not attach with the shaft and nut design so the vibration problem does not exist in their old style 2 screw system or the new quick release system. The market is driven by popular demand and since brass PC style bushings work better than the original steel bushings, fit more routers, are available in more sizes for less money you will see there are a number of reasons we recommend brass. The only bushings we do not recommend are the plastic bushings since they tend to flex and get trimmed by the bit causing failure. Steel bushings are the only answer for parts of the world and they do the job just fine. Perhaps you understand now this is not a fetish but just being practical for most members.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Mike, I know we shall never agree on this subject but just consider some of my routing projects in my gallery, in none of them could a cutter come into contact with the guide, please explain how this can occur, an odd picture or two would probably assist such explanation.


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

The danger to bits is when changing them. It is easy to drop a bit against a metal edge. While I have never experienced this myself I can see the logic in it. We store our bits in such a way as to protect them from contacting other bits to prevent damage, and this is just another safeguard. This is the reason Bob and Rick sell brass set up bars instead of using steel... just another safeguard.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Brass set-up bars come into contact with the cutter so here there is no argument, so we shall continue to disagree on the guide question and just as a matter of interest, will everyone on the forum please recount stories of when and how many times they have damaged cutters on steel guides and how often steel nuts have worked loose whilst routing, who knows, I may have to change my mind, I'm always receptive to new ideas when a convincing argument is presented.

Perhaps some of the very many viewers of this forum will take this opportunity to prove me wrong by registering as a member, it is absolutely FREE of charge and gives you a voice. The occasional verbal disagreements between members, or even, as in this case a member and a senior moderator are all in good fun, we are generally a very pleasant bunch of guys and gals, yes we do have members of the fair sex, some who are very knowledgeable in woodworking and must be taken very seriously.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

HI Harry

I try not to do dumb things,, I do have one or two steel guides but I don't used them I think they came with a cheap jig....I also don't jump out of a good air plane. 


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Bj, I clearly remember when you disagreed vehemently with me regarding plunge routing with female templates and the use of ski's. Look at you now, you actively promote both, so it's a case of trying things that you're not familiar with, and who knows, being an admitted cheap skate you may just find that the cheaper steel guides are not bad after all!


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Harry, I can tell you from experience that the steel nuts loosen up easily from vibration. When you use steel nuts and bolts on anything without a locking washer they loosen this way. One solution to the problem was using nuts with nylon inserts since the softer material grabbed the threads and held better. In the same way brass holds very well on brass and requires only finger tightening to remain in place. This is common knowledge. At no place in the forums will you find me faulting other styles of steel bushings. It is just the PC style that has this flaw. Since the majority of our members own routers which use PC style bushings, and the bushings cost less, are available in more sizes, hold better and can not damage a bit in an accident we recommend them. This is not a one size fits all situation, and for some members steel bushings are a better choice. They are more durable, and I have yet to hear of anybody needing to replace one because of damaged threads or collar. That can happen with brass. Please remember we try to tailor answers to specific questions for the member asking.


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## Hamlin (Dec 25, 2005)

Hi,

I think for a starters point of view, brass should be ideal. For a more experienced person, steel. I should point out though. This all depends on the persons preference. There is no right or wrong answer to this question.

Each his or her own.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

I think my job on this subject has ended successfully, people are talking and are in possession of all the facts, and those who have never used template guides might just be thinking that perhaps they are missing a hell of a lot, especially our Ozzie way of using them for serious plunge routing.


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## reuelt (Dec 29, 2008)

*Defacto Standard*

I think as far as guide bushings is concerned there is a defacto standard and other proprietary types

1. The DEFACTO standard is the Porta Cable Standard '1-3/16" Brass Template Guide Bushings standard".

Porta Cable invented the router (fixed base) so their Brass Template Guide Bushings is THE DEFACTO standard. 
"1-3/16 template guides" are suitable for use with any base plate with a 1-3/16" through bore and a 1-3/8" counterbore. 
All Porter-Cable and Black & Decker base plates as well as some from DeWalt, Elu, Hitachi, Makita and Skil and GMC and Triton (with Adapter) support this standard.
These type of guide bushings made of BRASS are available worldwide including Australia.

2. Second most popular (60mm plate type)
ELU (now a division of Dewalts) invented & patented the PLUNGE ROUTER. Being a German Company following metric system, ELU decided to use metric Steel Guide Bushings with barrels on a 60mm diameter plate mounted by 2 screws. The idea is that an adapter ring with 1-3/16" through hole could also be screwed on so that imperial Porta Cable's Brass Bushings can also be used.
Although many companies follow ELU to use 60mm plate mounted guide bushings, the way the guide bushings are attached differs. There is no standard really.

I have discovered that even China & Taiwan made routers are built along the idea of ELU. 2 screws for 60mm type guide Bushings + 1-3/16" hole (or a larger hole) but supply an adapter ring for Porta cable 1-3/16" type Bushings.

Don't just rush to buy or make a base plate for guide bushings. Measure what you have. Perhaps your router is already compatible.
Look for 60mm or 1-3/16".

The DEFACTO standard seems to be still the BRASS (imperial) system. 

"The dog wags the tail. the tail cannot wag the dog"


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## AlanWS (May 2, 2007)

The Bosch ones lock in quite nicely without loosening up, even though they are not brass.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

"The Bosch ones lock in quite nicely without loosening up, even though they are not brass."

True, they are a bayonet fitting, a pain to make. Years ago I had a 1/2" Bosch and made an adaptor to take the threaded brass guides. All the guides that I now make for my two Makitas are steel which are held in place with two screws, such a sensible method, I never cease to be amazed that all makers haven't copied Makita and Hitachi.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Harry

" I never cease to be amazed that all makers haven't copied Makita and Hitachi "

I came with the tools I need to use with the brass guides ( fingers) I don't need to put one more tool in my pocket, I can put 2 or 3 brass guides in my pocket unlike the tank guides made out of sheet metal...plus one little slip and the screw is down the hole right into the router motor, that's a fun job to get it out...if not done just right it's time to take the router down to parts just to get the screw out..it's hard to drop a 1 1/2' brass ring nut down the hole into the router motor..

Makita/Hitachi
I think the same designer that got that idea also said I know lets put the oil filter on the bottom side of the eng. and take it off the top side of the eng.where it's easy to replace the filter...or better yet lets turn the eng.sideways and make it front wheel drive so it's real night mare to fix any thing on the eng.without pulling the thing out...the only thing the states did right is to put disks brakes on the front of the car/truck that they got from the mfg. over the pond... 


Ping / Pong


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harrysin said:


> "The Bosch ones lock in quite nicely without loosening up, even though they are not brass."
> 
> True, they are a bayonet fitting, a pain to make. Years ago I had a 1/2" Bosch and made an adaptor to take the threaded brass guides. All the guides that I now make for my two Makitas are steel which are held in place with two screws, such a sensible method, I never cease to be amazed that all makers haven't copied Makita and Hitachi.


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## Charles M (Apr 10, 2006)

harrysin said:


> ...will everyone on the forum please recount stories of when and how many times they have damaged cutters on steel guides and how often steel nuts have worked loose whilst routing, who knows, I may have to change my mind, I'm always receptive to new ideas when a convincing argument is presented.


Harry,

I have seen many instances of bits damaged by steel guides. In my experience this has mostly been due to using bits with cutting diameter larger than the bushing ID in plunge routers. Evidently, the user inadvertently releases the plunge lock and the bit is raised into the bushing. I have also seen similar cases of the bushing nut vibrating loose, allowing the bushing to drop onto the spinning bit. In all of these I have no doubt that the damage would have been much less (or maybe nonexistent) if the guides had been brass rather than steel.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

bobj3 said:


> Hi Harry
> 
> " I never cease to be amazed that all makers haven't copied Makita and Hitachi "
> 
> ...


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

HI Harry

The notch on one of the side of the adapter plate works well BUT if it's not done right you just wiped out the adapter plate,,if it's to big the guide will not stay in place without a little washer to hold it tight ,, I would not suggest that to anyone it's just to easy to wipe the plate out...when I see the phil.or slotted heads screws I almost always replace them with Allen hex drive,this gives a way to hold on the the screw ...so to speak...less of a chance of dropping them into the motor...but the best way is lay the router on it's side then do the job...but the very best way is not playing with the funky plate at all and just use the brass guides.. ( 1 1/2" ID)

You may say then you can't use the big bits,, I'm not sure why anyone would want to use the big bits in a hand router,,,many of the big bits are label ,use in a router table only  what is your come back on that one ?


ping- pong 


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harrysin said:


> bobj3 said:
> 
> 
> > Hi Harry
> ...


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

"The notch on one of the side of the adapter plate works well BUT if it's not done right you just wiped out the adapter plate,,if it's to big the guide will not stay in place without a little washer to hold it tight ,, I would not suggest that to anyone it's just to easy to wipe the plate out...when I see the phil.or slotted heads screws I almost always replace them with Allen hex drive,this gives a way to hold on the the screw ...so to speak...less of a chance of dropping them into the motor...but the best way is lay the router on it's side then do the job...but the very best way is not playing with the funky plate at all and just use the brass guides.. ( 1 1/2" ID)

You may say then you can't use the big bits,, I'm not sure why anyone would want to use the big bits in a hand router,,,many of the big bits are label ,use in a router table only what is your come back on that one ?"

wakey, wakey Bj, how in the world can the notch be botched, once it's over the screw head the guide is ROTATED, as shown in the photograph, therefore it doesn't matter of it's two or three times the ideal size because it's well away from the screw. Regarding large template guides, the ability to use large cutters is only one benefit, it allows the chuck to pass through enabling a deeper cut, it also gives greater ability to SEE the cutter and makes extraction of the dust easier. In retrospect I realise that you know all this and are just trying to shake me out of the lethargic state that I'm in due to the continuation of the shingles, and for this I thank you Bob.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Harry

" just trying to shake me out of the lethargic state "

But did it work ? ?

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harrysin said:


> "The notch on one of the side of the adapter plate works well BUT if it's not done right you just wiped out the adapter plate,,if it's to big the guide will not stay in place without a little washer to hold it tight ,, I would not suggest that to anyone it's just to easy to wipe the plate out...when I see the phil.or slotted heads screws I almost always replace them with Allen hex drive,this gives a way to hold on the the screw ...so to speak...less of a chance of dropping them into the motor...but the best way is lay the router on it's side then do the job...but the very best way is not playing with the funky plate at all and just use the brass guides.. ( 1 1/2" ID)
> 
> You may say then you can't use the big bits,, I'm not sure why anyone would want to use the big bits in a hand router,,,many of the big bits are label ,use in a router table only what is your come back on that one ?"
> 
> wakey, wakey Bj, how in the world can the notch be botched, once it's over the screw head the guide is ROTATED, as shown in the photograph, therefore it doesn't matter of it's two or three times the ideal size because it's well away from the screw. Regarding large template guides, the ability to use large cutters is only one benefit, it allows the chuck to pass through enabling a deeper cut, it also gives greater ability to SEE the cutter and makes extraction of the dust easier. In retrospect I realise that you know all this and are just trying to shake me out of the lethargic state that I'm in due to the continuation of the shingles, and for this I thank you Bob.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

It did Bob, I made something today and will post a photo shoot tomorrow.


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## reuelt (Dec 29, 2008)

If you want "file" a notch or two, instead of filing you can use a nibbler made to attach to a power drill.

Clamp the guide bushing, use a ratched box spanner to turn the nibbler manually -nibbling a little at a time.. You can get 100% good fitting notches that way & much faster.

(This was how I adapted the whole set of Axminster/Trend "metric" guide bushings for my Hitachi M12V - just nibble off two notches in each of them. I found that manual filling would take too long and powered filing would be less accurate.

Reuel


Type I use is like one shown here when the punch is round not square.
http://www.axminster.co.uk/product-Axminster-Axminster-Power-Nibbler-23286.htm


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## woodnthings (Jan 30, 2009)

I'd like to get in on this if you'all don't mind. No one has mention that brass is sort of self lubricating, where steel is not. I had a steel PC guide bushing loosen up on me just last week. I also has a 1/4" shaft bit heat up and lock up in my 5/16ths steel guide bushing. Possible I'm dumb as a post, but I'm only using the brass gide bushing from HF at 15 to 20$ per set if you want the "adaptor" from now on. I didn't understand the need for a nibbler in the previous post. All we are doing is filing two 3/8" half moon notches in a brass adaptor. A rattail file and 8 strokes per notch and it's done.. Have I made this too easy? The notches at 180 degress apart allow the bushing to be rotated slightly to clear the screw heads and be removed, Right? Therefore the screws never have to be removed and possibly dropped into the motor. Right? I like that idea. Bill


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

I completely agree with you Bill, all my notches are made with a few strokes of a rat tail file, only one needed in the thin steel guides and two in the thicker brass adaptor. This shot of the adaptor that I recently made clearly shows the notches at the top and bottom.


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## reuelt (Dec 29, 2008)

woodnthings said:


> I didn't understand the need for a nibbler in the previous post. All we are doing is filing two 3/8" half moon notches in a brass adaptor. A rattail file and 8 strokes per notch and it's done.. Have I made this too easy? Bill


Reason for using a nibbler was because all the whole set of Metric Guide bushings available here are made of STEEL not brass. 12 pieces for EVEN metric sizes and 12 pices for ODD metric sizes.

I already has a brass adapter with ready notches for the set of Brass Imperial Guide Bushing.


Reuel


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

As I said in the above post, only one notch is required in the steel guides and my nibbler, like most hobby types, has a maximum capacity of 0.047" in steel and my guides are mostly 0.086". In my opinion, nibbling is not normally very neat compared to a file, in any case I'm sure everyone has a file, but how many I wonder have a nibbler other than myself and I'm sure BJ.!


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## woodnthings (Jan 30, 2009)

Hey harry, did you note that bobj now has 9.801 posts! I think you are running a distant second at 3,691. Consider the knowledge that dwells within those minds!!Bill


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## Bob N (Oct 12, 2004)

Naw..... Dr. Zook has Harry beat with over 5000 posts 

Speaking of the good Dr.... he has been missing for a couple of days now, I hope he is okay. Anyone been in touch?


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

HI Bill

It's not a big deal ,,, I'm just a bigger loud mouth than Harry is and he gets on the forum late ,USA time..  the norm is about 10:30 or 11:00 Mountain time.. I have the day shift and he has the night shift ,he's the old fart swinger .. I just can't talk him into driving on the right side of the road..  but he also right on all the other things  ( most of of the time but NOT all ) he is my mate down under 



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woodnthings said:


> Hey harry, did you note that bobj now has 9.801 posts! I think you are running a distant second at 3,691. Consider the knowledge that dwells within those minds!!Bill


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

HI Bob

I did talk to him about a week ago . I will PM you..

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Bob said:


> Naw..... Dr. Zook has Harry beat with over 5000 posts
> 
> Speaking of the good Dr.... he has been missing for a couple of days now, I hope he is okay. Anyone been in touch?


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Bill, I've only been a member for two years as against Bj's three years, in any case he averages close to 9 posts per day compared to my 5 per day and the reason for this is because Bj has in depth knowledge of far more things than me. I tend to stick to subjects that I do know something about, which gives me less scope than Bj. The thing that we do have in common is an ability to stir things up to keep the forum interesting. I know from emails and PM's that many members log on before going to work to see what we've been up to, without these messages of support I probably would have faded away some time ago.


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## woodnthings (Jan 30, 2009)

*The meaning of is, is*

Harry, It's possible I'm taking this out of context,  but there's an implication here that would definitely stir the pot a little....and I quote " I tend to stick to subjects that I do know something about," from your post above referring to bobj no. of posts. Did I miss anything or am I detecting more than meets the eye? And is there a contest going on from down under?  Bill
As far as Dr. Zook, the greeter, having 5000 posts, as well he should, that's part of his job decription!


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hey Bill 

Watch this,,,,Harry , we still can't get that 40mm guides in the states  LOL
for most of the router WE use in the USA .. we have ping/ pong this one for a long time..right Harry .....


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## Electron (May 22, 2008)

Spot on Bj, now as for the 40mm guide, I have a spare professionally made one to fit the Makita 3600/3612/3612C. The first member to email me with their street address, anywhere in the world will receive it with my compliments.
At present the email address [email protected]


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## Dr.Zook (Sep 10, 2004)

*I are lurking!*



Bob said:


> Naw..... Dr. Zook has Harry beat with over 5000 posts
> 
> Speaking of the good Dr.... he has been missing for a couple of days now, I hope he is okay. Anyone been in touch?


I are here Bobs. I are alright. I have been slacking off greeting everyone here lately. We have so many new members joining, that it is very time consuming to greet them all. I can remember when we only had 2 or 3 join per day.
Bill; the title of "Offical Greeter" is an honorary title, given to me by Mark. I really don't have any duties. I just thought that it would be nice to welcome new members to the forums. The 5000+ post are from when I joined back 2004. I try to keep this as a big International family of woodworkers. I even try at times to greet newbies in there own language. As for "Harry." You will find out he had about ¾'s of his brain removed, or they wouldn't let him into Australia. This explains Harry.
Besides, I don't want to catch up and pass Bj on posts. (like I could)!
Thanks for all the concern but I am fine. Cold, but fine.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

HI Dave glad to see you up and going 


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Dr.Zook said:


> I are here Bobs. I are alright. I have been slacking off greeting everyone here lately. We have so many new members joining, that it is very time consuming to greet them all. I can remember when we only had 2 or 3 join per day.
> Bill; the title of "Offical Greeter" is an honorary title, given to me by Mark. I really don't have any duties. I just thought that it would be nice to welcome new members to the forums. The 5000+ post are from when I joined back 2004. I try to keep this as a big International family of woodworkers. I even try at times to greet newbies in there own language. As for "Harry." You will find out he had about ¾'s of his brain removed, or they wouldn't let him into Australia. This explains Harry.
> Besides, I don't want to catch up and pass Bj on posts. (like I could)!
> Thanks for all the concern but I am fine. Cold, but fine.


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## Dr.Zook (Sep 10, 2004)

*Welcome*

Yeah, welcome.


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