# Adventures in Table Saw Tuning



## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

40 year old Rockwell shop saw. 

After moving my shop saw a few times,last time when the upright freezer went south... And after many maniacal shift changes. (Now worked 16 days straight.) I needed something to distract me, focus my mind on other things... So I decided to tune my saw again. I know it is way out after the last move.

Really sounds like with the hours in my new job, that I need to get a life back. Going through saw dust withdrawals.

Previously, I trued the arbor from being out 0.015" to 0.004", which was within specs. But I knew I could get it closer if I took the time. That fist time took forever to get it that close. I said then, it was close enough for "then." Now with some time stolen away for distraction, I got it less than 0.0005". (Sweet!!!) I'm overjoyed with that. Especially by just using the end of a sharpening stone clamped to a crosscut fence at 45 degrees with the arbor at 45 degrees. Light pressure, just until the high spots touch. Checked stone often for loading up. 

Turned, remounted and continued.

Clamped a piece of steel to my aluminum miter fence. Mounted my magnetic dial indicator mount to the block. Mounted my Frued Alignment disk. Slid my dial indicator to the front of the disk 3/4" from the edge, about 1" off the table. Found out my Frued Alignment Disk is not "True." It is warped and dished. No matter. 
Found a good high spot in the disk, about 3/4" from the edge and marked it with a fine tipped permanent marker. Slid the dial indicator back, 3/4" from the edge. 

Spun the disk so the "mark" and dial indicator lined up. Wow. It was 0.053" off. Went to loosen my trunions and the back trunion bolts were not tight. Must have got screwed during those moves. I knew it didn't sound right.

Loosened up the 90 degree stop. Kept a back trunion bolt snug while I moved the front trunion left. Snugged one front trunion bolt and loosened the rear trunion bolts back up. Rechecked front and rear. Moved the rear trunion to within 0.001". On my saw, while moving the trunions, I have to also loosen the tilt lever lock to be able to do it. If not, that lock puts things in a bind and it doesn't move right. With those front trunion bolts in my saw, I have to manipulate them from inside. I'm glad I have a saw that I can open, climb in (partially) , turn over and there you go. The rear I can do from the outside-rear of the saw. That's why I went close with the front trunion and fine tuned with the rear. Also so I wouldn't run out of adjustment.

Tilted the saw to 45 degrees and checked to dial indicator to my front and rear reference mark. I have shims cut from beer cans and 2 liter bottles that I use for trunion shims. I also cut some from automotive shim stock and some old machine shims from work. I shim the high end (between the trunion and table and got it within .0015". The high end is the end that pushes up the dial indicator. The shims will push that end of the trunion down.

Tilted back to 90 degrees. Adjusted back under 0.001". Rechecked 45 degrees. Close to 0.001". Rechecked bolt tightness. Rechecked. Called it good.

Readjusted my 90 degree and 45 degree stops. 

Put my 3/4" x 3/4" square bar stock in miter slot. Moved my rip fence to the bar and adjusted with 0.002" toe out at the rear. (0.002 in 30")

Tomorrow, when I get home I'll check the fences with a 5-cut check.

(Intermission)


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

> Found out my Frued Alignment Disk is not "True." It is warped and dished


sorry, but I had to laugh..........


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## Sawdust Don (Nov 1, 2012)

Thanks for posting about adjustment when the blade is tilted. I have a problem of .019" out there. I will try shimming.
I have had this Rockwell for many years, it drifted out of true seems more when I moved it.
Looking at the PALs adjusters, they replace the trunion bolts with studs, I did the studs with nuts, and it holds much better.
Good usefull post, thanks again.

Don


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Sawdust Don said:


> Thanks for posting about adjustment when the blade is tilted. I have a problem of .019" out there. I will try shimming.
> I have had this Rockwell for many years, it drifted out of true seems more when I moved it.
> Looking at the PALs adjusters, they replace the trunion bolts with studs, I did the studs with nuts, and it holds much better.
> Good usefull post, thanks again.
> ...


Don-

Studs and nuts? Hmmm. Maybe I should try that on mine. The actual "adjuster" mechanism of the PALS system won't work on mine (also looked into it), as it won't fit my trunions. But thought that type of system ingenious for what it does/how it works.

I was toying with completely disassembling it. Original design has a shaft screwed in to the ned of the yoke, whicvh is part of the mechanism for the Angle indicator "dial." When I got the saw, it was hanging loose. The hole in the yoke is stripped. Still saved that shaft and have had it for over 25+ years. After disassembly, I would have to put an insert or helicoil. I should have done it when I rebuilt the motor and replaced the bearings. But I forgot about it until I had it all back together and weeks later made a bevel cut... So used to not using that saw's angle indicator. I have a Wixey digital angle gauge, that I bought because of that.

Curious what model number yours is. I really like the versatility of your saw. I remember you saying that your looked out for it specifically for a long time. What alignment plate do you have pictured in your post? Is that bar stock?


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## Knothead47 (Feb 10, 2010)

You realize you have just given me somthing else to do- tuning my TS. When will it end?????


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## greenacres2 (Dec 23, 2011)

I had the same thought John!! Noticed last weekend that i couldn't lower the blade beneath the plate so it's time for a good cleaning anyway. I kind of need to suspend projects so i can clear a spot for both cars in the garage for the winter. Got 1200 bf or so that needs to move over 4 feet, but to do that i need to find a new home for ladders/shovels. To do that i need to relocate some other stuff, but to do that...okay you get the picture.

That's pretty tight tolerance you've gotten--mine will probably not get that close but could use some help. Nice project in a small space so my little heater will work great!!


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## Sawdust Don (Nov 1, 2012)

Hi Mike,
The saw pictured is a Rockwell Model 10 contractors Saw, model# 34-410. about 1983 vintage.
I have had quite a few issues with this saw, but seem to be getting the uperhand on those.
I recently found a much heavier saw, A Delta Rockwell 12"-14". that saw is like a Unisaw, but twice the weight.

In the photo, I have a chipper blade from a dado mounted in the arbor.
I put a mark on one outer edge, then roll the blade back and forth, at the same time slide the indicator gauge, and place the indicator tip on the mark. Its easier using a chipper instead of a regular blade.

The base for the indicator is an antique Starret #57 surface gauge. It has push down pins that are riding the edge of the miter slot.

This saws trunions bolt under the table with just 4 5/16" bolts. I made some 5/16" grade 8 studs by sawing off 5/16" Allen bolts threaded ends.
I used locktite to hold the studs in the table.
I just couldnt really get the regular bolts to hold, but with the stronger studs, with nuts, they are holding, and reducing the risk of stripping out the tables threaded holes.

When I get some time, I need to see what I can do about the blade being out of true when tilted at 45.

Don


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Sawdust Don said:


> When I get some time, I need to see what I can do about the blade being out of true when tilted at 45.


That's a relatively easy one...

Some engineer told me that you get difference the measurement front to rear on your dial indicator, the distance between your measurement points that you just made with your dil indicator, the distance between the trunions and use that ratio to find out how much you need to shim... You can see that seemed to me a bit over complicated and a lot of math for what it really is.

The general idea, is you true up at 90 degrees. Then when you tilt to 45 degrees
and check to see which end of the trunion reads higher than the other. If you add shim stock between the trunion and the table, it will drop that trunion lower... A lot of saws come with some shims already. 

I just make my own out off aluminun cans, pop bottles and automotive brass shim stock. All those I can cut with a pair of scissors or a small pair of tin snips.

I shim the high trunion until I get it true at 45 degrees... or shim both alternately like a jigsaw puzzle to get a combination of shims on both sides where it evens out and it being true front to rear. I loosen the trunion bolts, then sandwich the shim stock between the table and the trunion.

After I get that true, I go back and forth checking the true at 90 and 45 to see if anything changed. Sometimes while the trunion bolts are loose for shimming, you'll inadvertently shift the trunion again. just like sometimes, just tightening the bolt that last little bit will shift it with some saws. From what I hear, I guess a PALS kind of system does hold things together better and helps prevent that side-to-side shifting while you shim.

Time and patience. It's really easier than how it sounds.

So does the Delta Rockwell 12" - 14" have a model number? I'm thinking somewhere between 34-345 through 34-395?


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## Sawdust Don (Nov 1, 2012)

Yes, mine is a 34-350 of 1968 vintage.
These are 3 phase with 5hp or 7hp motors.
I am using an Autogen 7 hp phase converter, to power this saw off of 220v single phase, using when needed a 7hp idler, to reach near full power, but that is not often.

Don


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

I heard "Grizzly Industrial" remade a copy of that saw. On the copy, Grizzly Tablesaw 7209, the parts were interchangeable. The interchange arbors were being remade. The import arbors for it, 1", 1-1/8" and 1-1/4"... and someone said they saw a 5/8" inch arbor for it, turn up after that. 

I don't know. You would have thought the copy was in metric... but that's what I heard.

Interesting saw.


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## Sawdust Don (Nov 1, 2012)

Yes, Grizzly does have arbors to fit the Delta 12-14.
But, having a Monarch 10ee toolmakers lathe, I make them myself out of pre-hardened chrome alloy tool steel.
In the spindle is the 5/8"dia long arbor,


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Sawdust Don said:


> Yes, Grizzly does have arbors to fit the Delta 12-14.
> But, having a Monarch 10ee toolmakers lathe, I make them myself out of pre-hardened chrome alloy tool steel.
> In the spindle is the 5/8"dia long arbor,


Sweet!

Boy do I have a small project I want to talk to you about...


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