# Question: Biscuites vs. Doweles, Asking Harry's Opinion As Well As Others



## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

Harry seems to lean toward biscuits for jointing and alignment, but I am not sure which one he or others would say would be better for the application that I am going to ask about.

I sent Harry a couple of sketches of how I plan to build a frame for a cedar chest that I'm working on. I have all of the parts for the chest cut out nad until now have planned on using dowels in the joints primarily for alignment. My thinking is that dowels would add strength but I think that I recall reading that dowelsa and biscuits do not add much strength to a joint. I am not sure that I read that, just seem like I recall reading that. 

There are two other members of the forum that I have been conversing with about the build of this chest as well as Harry. I have decided to ask Harry publicly about this and will see if there is or is not a consensus on which of the two methods would be better than the other. I suspect that Otis will have something to say as he tells us that he uses a lot of dowels.

I had, until now, been looking forward to using my new JessEm Doweling Jig, but am open to using biscuits if they are a better choice.

I am adding a couple of photos, the ones that I sent to Harry. The material is all QS ****e Oak, 3/4" thick. The corner styles are will be jointed together with miter lock joints. In the second of the two photo, the red areas are where rabbets will be cut for the vertical styles to reside in, these styles will be 3/8" thick. 

But first, let's talk about the which would be better, biscuits or dowels and Harry's recommendations will carry a of weight in the decision. I say this because he is, from what I can tell, a strong advocate for biscuits, but he may not think that it makes any difference in this case. Let me know what you think Harry and this question is posed to anybody that would like to help me.

Jerry


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## boogalee (Nov 24, 2010)

I would use mortise and tenon joints and forget about dowels and biscuits.

Al


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

boogalee said:


> I would use mortise and tenon joints and forget about dowels and biscuits.
> 
> Al


Good point Al, let's see what others suggest, mortise and tenon would be easy to do, thanks for your input.

Jerry


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## MT Stringer (Aug 15, 2012)

If it were me, I would use pocket screw construction to make the frames and be done with it in no time. See pic below of a kitchen island I will soon be building. (I am building the doors today). Carcase comes last.

Note: Just mark your rabbits so the screws will not interfere.

I forgot to ask. Will this frame be seen from the inside? If so, would the pocket holes be visible? You could always plug them and sand them smooth.
Mike


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

MT Stringer said:


> If it were me, I would use pocket screw construction to make the frames and be done with it in no time. See pic below of a kitchen island I will soon be building. (I am building the doors today). Carcase comes last.
> 
> Note: Just mark your rabbits so the screws will not interfere.
> 
> ...


Mike, 
The pocket hole screw would be a good idea, the cedar lining would hide them, that would be good option, I have the Kreg Pocket Hole set up. Somewhere I had heard that using screws in is a no no in higher end woodworking, but never understood that in that, like in this project, who world ever know. O.K. one vote for PHS. One for M&T.

Tnanks for chimming in Mike,

Jerry


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

I wouldn't even ask anyone, I'd just sit down and decide which way 'I'' preferred, and do it that way. 

That said, the one time I made a chest, it was assembled 100% with glue, no fasteners of any type used, only glue strips to strengthen the butt joints. And after 15 plus years it's still holding up just as well as when it was made.

I was thinking about biscuits earlier today. With sausage gravy.


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## Salty Dawg (Jan 24, 2014)

Pocket hole would be a lot faster & easier.


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## denniswoody (Dec 11, 2011)

The issue here is not alignment since these joints would be easy to align on glue-up. There will be stress on the outside pieces so the best choice by far is mortise and tenon. The centre piece could be dowel joined if you wish but I would M&T it as well. Pocket hole joinery is not a good option in my opinion. Biscuits are for alignment and not really suitable here.


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## kp91 (Sep 10, 2004)

If part of the pieces are going to be 3/8 inches thick, then the biscuit might be the way to go there. you could also do a loose tenon (1/4 inch thick) using the router.

I have seen test after test in woodworking articles about the strength of each of these joints, I just use what works now. 

I built a massive deck box for my front porch using pocket hole screws and butt joints, it is built like a tank. It has held the weight of 2 or 3 kids eating lunch on it at a time.

I have built an entertainment center using biscuits to edge join the solid pine 'legs' onto the plywood panel sides, and it has been working for 15 years.

The first face frame I ever made was with dowels, and only dowel centers for aligning them. I would NEVER do that again... you have to have a decent jig of some sort to avoid frustration. {I have a huge box of Miller Dowel parts that were part of an estate lot I bought... I wonder how they would work}

Loose tenons are surprisingly easy. I picked up a 'beadlok' jig at an auctoin once for a buck or two, and I honestly think the router is almost as fast, plus the tenon stock is easier to make.

If you're really worried about strength, I would say loose tenon or dowel. Ease and strength, pocket hole or biscuit.

There are more than one way to skin a cat (but the cats don't like any of them)


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## Gene Howe (Jul 10, 2007)

Another vote for pocket screws.


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## vindaloo (May 30, 2009)

If the joints appearance didn't matter or was hidden I'd use pocket screws.

If you want to stay conventional, that old time skill of carpentry (which I would love to acheive) I'd use mortise and tenon.

As a halfway approach loose tenon would be in the mix.

I'm not sure I'd ever use dowels again as I've not had a lot of success in alignment.

This really is a case of list all possible methods of joining the stock, then write a list of what you want as the outcome, hidden or visible, strength to acheive etc.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Much against my better judgement and because my name was mentioned I'll give my answer Jerry. The main reason that I suggested biscuits is that you have very poor vision and cutting the slots requires no measuring, just freehand pencil lines and when the jointer is plunged it's moved from side to side so that in glue-up the joints can be slid into perfect alignment. All other methods mentioned are just fine for those fortunate enough to have good vision.
In summary, Jerry, you have very little woodworking experience and very poor vision so it seems sensible to me to suggest the simplest method that has guaranteed results rather than one of the several other methods that are more difficult and could easily lead to disaster.


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## greenacres2 (Dec 23, 2011)

Without regard to personality issues or conflicts--in my opinion Harry's answer was a good lesson to me. When i read through the question originally--i went through MY decision matrix for MY solution. Harry's reasoning takes into account the needs of the user and the user's tools. I hope i learn to react to questions on all topics in that manner. Thanks Harry.

(i shan't answer how i would do it, but it would likely involve a Kreg product if i'm covering the inside of the chest!!)

earl


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## MT Stringer (Aug 15, 2012)

Jerry, now that a few of us have made suggestions, I think you should go with what you feel comfortable with.

Regardless of your choice, practice on some scrap.

I have used pocket screws enough to be comfortable with them. My assembly table has the tracks for clamps to hold the pieces securely. And, in the case of the frames I showed earlier, I make spacers so everything will be lined up. Since I am building cabinets with overlay doors and drawer fronts, it is easy for me to make minor adjustments during assembly...and no one will ever know. 

Good luck. I have no doubt your project is going to look nice.
Mike


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Biscuits are fairly strong and not just for alignment. Dowels should be a little stronger but you need to be very accurate drilling the holes or you will have mating problems. Mortice and tenon is stronger yet. Old doors and windows used saddle joints, an open ended mortice and tenon, because it was the strongest joint that could be made quickly.


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

harrysin said:


> Much against my better judgement and because my name was mentioned I'll give my answer Jerry. The main reason that I suggested biscuits is that you have very poor vision and cutting the slots requires no measuring, just freehand pencil lines and when the jointer is plunged it's moved from side to side so that in glue-up the joints can be slid into perfect alignment. All other methods mentioned are just fine for those fortunate enough to have good vision.
> In summary, Jerry, you have very little woodworking experience and very poor vision so it seems sensible to me to suggest the simplest method that has guaranteed results rather than one of the several other methods that are more difficult and could easily lead to disaster.


Harry,
That's what I was fishing for, not only your suggestion , but your reasoning too. I do appreciate the suggestions other than biscuits and dowels, but the question to the forum was not for other suggestion but which would be better choice between the two options given in the question. Harry answered in the manner I thought that hw would.

I have been or should say, I am, so impressed with the JessEm doweling jig that I had until now really wanted to use dowels and use the new jig, but Harry's reasoning does make sense. 

The order that the parts are put together in is very important, if not put together in the proper order one could get trapped when using either one of the two options.

One other point that I have wondered about has to do with the strength of the miter lock joints at the corners. The installation of the floor will help to some degree in holding the four wall together, but the corners seems to me to be very important, but I am going to go ahead and use the miter lock joints, they are already cut and they look very good.

Jerry


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Hmmm...

Good reasoning Harry. Along with others- what you are most comfortable with. Each one woiuld hold in your case. A good glue-up goes a long way.

Seems your next question is on the joining of the corners. From s structural point of perspective... You drew out the ends as a frame and panels... You didn't post a scetch on the front/back/bottom. So from a guestamation of what that might be... I'm assuming that the grain of the sides and bottom is going horizontally, with the ends meeting the sides(?) Are the ends inside of that frame on the ends or are there panels inside the frame as the sides? Wondering if you thought you would miter lock those frames to the front or to side panels that are inside of those side frames?

If was looking at your sketches and pondering. A miter-lock might not what I would use on those corners into an end frame. It would detract from the design. I would think a spline joint (either with your table saw or a router.) The grooves would be in the ends, with the splines in the ends of the front, back and bottom. The bottom in chests like that are usually fitted into grooves between the front and back. On adding more to that kind of joining, if I want more than just glue, then I'll shoot some 16 gauge finish nails in. If I think I need more... then I'll use trim screws and sink them below the surface, where I can either fill over them... or put small wooden plugs over them (about 1/8" holes with trim head screws).

Maybe I sometime take some of those things for granted, because I've been doing it a while. I know that may sound like a 3-D puzzle. But plan them out and they just snap together quickly. Joining in that manner, each joint works together to hold the whole together. Being off a little when you set up your tooling and it is a little forgiving and doesn't detract from the finished product.

Being off a minute amount on one end of one side of four locking miter joints... and you have more work ahead to cover that up from showing.

But when it comes down to it-- I guess all of that really depends on "your design"" and/or what you want to practice on. I know whatever path you take, you have a tendency to do a good job at it. You want to do a good job. You take pride in what you do, but sometimes have to remember that it just needs to meet your standards and sometimes your own standards are pretty high up there. Don't take it too seriously or critical. Remember to have fun.


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## routergieck (Feb 11, 2013)

I agree with Doug's reply. Personally I use biscuit joinery in almost all of my non -corner joints because they are fast, easy and never have any alignment problems.I probably tried dowels too early in my woodworking and never really got over some of the traumatic experiences when thos suckers don't line up!! Which ever way you decide to go good luck.


Dennis


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## kp91 (Sep 10, 2004)

Jerry Bowen said:


> One other point that I have wondered about has to do with the strength of the miter lock joints at the corners. The installation of the floor will help to some degree in holding the four wall together, but the corners seems to me to be very important, but I am going to go ahead and use the miter lock joints, they are already cut and they look very good.
> 
> Jerry


Jerry,

The corners are going to be long grain to long grain, and the glue will be plenty. You might simply want to use a rabbet-Dado joint to join the corner. Easy to make, lots of glue surface, more tolerant of a little misalignment than a lock miter. Just remember that piece y will be shorter than x so it looks even when assembled


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

MAFoElffen said:


> Hmmm...
> 
> Good reasoning Harry. Along with others- what you are most comfortable with. Each one woiuld hold in your case. A good glue-up goes a long way.
> 
> ...




Mike,
I'll try again, I wrote a rather long lengthy reply to your post and when I clicked on "submit reply" I got the message, "this message cannot be displayed" so I will try again. I don't know if the problem is with my computer or the web site.

I'll try to condense the reply this time. I found your post to be a bit confusing to me, I am pretty sure that the confusion is my fault. Let me try to simplify things so that you can better answer my question. In the sketches, parts marked A and B have miter lock joints cut into them on the outside edges, you can't tell that from the sketches. The side walls of the chest are of the same construction design as the front and back of the chest.

The matching end styles on the side panels have the matching miter lock joints cut in them and thus form the corner of the chest when locked together..

My question is whether or not the miter lock joint is strong enough or not for this application. I became intrigued with the concept of the miter lock joint recently and purchased the bits from Infinity along with their set up jigs and wanted to try them. It may well be that they are not suitable for where I have been planning on using them in this project and if not I need to change my design, but I had hoped that they would work as they would form a nice clean looking corner joint.

I will wait for your reply if I can submit this reply, hope it works this time.

Jerry


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## Wood Chip (Apr 10, 2011)

100% Mortise & Tenon joinery


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## delmirj (Jan 10, 2013)

Seems like a perfect application for mortise & tennon joinery. Use loose tenons if the pieces are already cut. Maybe dominoes (expensive?).


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Jerry Bowen said:


> My question is whether or not the miter lock joint is strong enough or not for this application. I became intrigued with the concept of the miter lock joint recently and purchased the bits from Infinity along with their set up jigs and wanted to try them. It may well be that they are not suitable for where I have been planning on using them in this project and if not I need to change my design, but I had hoped that they would work as they would form a nice clean looking corner joint.


A locking-miter profile falls into the spline joint family of joining techniques. Also in this family are dado's, rabbet (drawer-locking) joints, T&G, floating splines... Long mortise/tenon joints, span over into this category. 

Of other joining techniques also mentioned in this thread-- mortise & tenon, biscuit, , dowels, domino, etc... All fall into the same family of mortise and tenon-- of which biscuits, dowels, domino, are all forms of floating tenons.

Historically, a locking miter joints were first used for making columns (making 4 pieces of lumber look like one beam.) So the profile was cut alone _with_ the direction of the grain. This was a very strong joining technique, meant to last for years of service. 

Later this same profile was used for medium sized boxes, such as drawers. Using in this way, it is cut into the end grain. This profile cut in this manner can be used as a corner or as a glue-up profile. It is still a strong joint, gluing end grain fibers to end grain fibers.

This is also what M&T joining does- gluing end-grain fibers together, both methods cut in a manner to extend the gluing surface. As you look at structural factors, the larger the tenon or loose tenon, then the stronger it is-- so a dowel is stronger than a biscuit; an oblong loose tenon (like the brand name domino is), is stronger than a round dowel... and so on.

A true M&T or spline joint is stronger than a floating tenon or floating spline, because there is no interruption of the grain fibers. 

Considerations for spline joint joining goes by size of the grain and the cross-sectional thickness. from thin to 5/8", a rabbet joint is stronger than a butt joint, but somewhat too small to attempt a miter lock joint. 3/8" to 7/8" locking miter joints. 5/8" and above usually go back to rabbet joints and other spline joints.

Why the range? Because of expansion/contraction, how things fit together and strength. How things fit together in a chest-- and how things pull apart, a spline joint keeps a bottom from dropping down better than a locking-miter joint. That's just the physics of the forces being applied. A locking miter may look better, It may display more talent in getting it correct and looking right, but if you are asking what is stronger,... in that application for that one piece, that is not joint as strong in that application. (Spline keys and dovetail keys would help make a miter or miter-lock joint oppose those kinds of forces.)

But who the heck cares about if it will hold an elephants weight through a long-mast ship's voyage, eh? Lots of fine furnishing didn't make those kinds of voyages.) A locking miter would look nicer (if you get it right)... just as (to me) dovetails look nicer than box joints. Where I love asymmetric dovetailing in blanket chests <> looking as one piece (a mitered joint, locking or not, not showing any end-grain) is another nice effect, look and feel. Any technique, if done right would be strong enough for a small chest to last years. Besides, that joining technique falls along with the design you had in your head and have already started.

EDIT-- Notice I didn't mention pocket screw joints. I use them. But I think they have their time and place. They are quick and easy. But realistically, they are reinforced butt joints. That is not a criticism or judgement. Just an observation of what they are and where they fall into as a category. Judge for yourself on your own.


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

MAFoElffen said:


> A locking-miter profile falls into the spline joint family of joining techniques. Also in this family are dado's, rabbet (drawer-locking) joints, T&G, floating splines... Long mortise/tenon joints, span over into this category.
> 
> Of other joining techniques also mentioned in this thread-- mortise & tenon, biscuit, , dowels, domino, etc... All fall into the same family of mortise and tenon-- of which biscuits, dowels, domino, are all forms of floating tenons.
> 
> ...



Mike,
This post is, in my opinion anyway, an outstanding tretise on the subject of joinery. As everyone that follows me on the foum knows, I did buy the miter lock bits and with the set up jig I was able to make the cuts right off the bat. Also, as I said, all of the parts for my project are cut out including the corners with the miter lock joints cut in them. I got hung up in my attempt to construct the lid, spent a lot of time trying to overcome a mistake, consequently the assembly of the chest really got delayed. This thread got started and the subject of the miter lock joint has come up and may be a good thing. I say that because if it had not come up and I had gone ahead and used the design and it did not work, I would have been in for another disappointment. However, I'm not certain that you completely nixed the idea. The material is 3/4" thick. That means that the the distance across the 45 degree cut is .75 x 1.4142" or about .86" and the miter lock cuts are cut into that increasing the surface considerably more than that which when your explanatation is applied, that being the importance of surface area, the joint begins to look like it "might work".

This is where I get into trouble with my interest in woodworking. I think along these lines of seeing that something might work and just can't leave it alone until I try it and find out for myself why it will or won't work. Finding out for myself is the lure of it and what causes some to not understand. I have no problem with finding out that I'm wrong, that is how I learn which is repeat of what I have said so many times before..

Today I e-mailed a member of the forum that has been a big help to me. I told him that I have seriously thought of selling all of my tools and finding a new hobby due to the fact that woodworking is not something that I have a natural instinct for. That may well be true and what I need to admit to myself and stay focused on is that perhaps I am more interested in experimenting than I am in completing a project. This tendency may not be such a bad thing but maybe it's so different from the mentality of the majority of the members of the forum that it is the reason that I seem to always be running against the grain. I'm just trying to figure out why I have, from the get go, run against the norm of the forum. 

I am who I am, and I think that I just need to except that and keep doing things my way and not let what others say bother me so much. Being a wonderfully talented woodworker may not need to be one's goal, but rather doing what one enjoys with one's woodworking endeavors may be much more important. This thread, while being somewhat controversial may be just what the doctor ordered in order for me to figure out what is going on with me. Believe me, I have been doing some serious soul searching and I thank all of the members that have ppsted to the thread, you have all been of help to me in my beginning to understand myself.

Jerry


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## vindaloo (May 30, 2009)

routergieck said:


> ........I probably tried dowels too early in my woodworking and never really got over some of the traumatic experiences when thos suckers don't line up!!.......


Oh so true :jester:


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Jerry, 

Please do not be discouraged. You do good work. Your are on an adventure to learn and better yourself. Experimentation is how I learn also.

With my experimentation, I have learned and am still learning. Sometimes my experimentation was way outside the box. Sometimes it worked and sometimes not. I especially like when someone says something cannot be done... and I think it is still possible. That is a challenge I like to take on.

Who cares what others think or say (I keep saying that). _You are your biggest critic_. (I have also told you that I few times).Please lighten up and just do it... remebering to have fun and take it easy on yourself. One thing I have told myself all my life since I was kid: If I try at something with all my being and I fail at it, I can say I tried whole heartedly. I didn't set myself up for failure. It just didn't work out."

But then again, I've also say you need to be just a little bit crazy and keep a sense of humor to get by..." Just do it and see how it turns out. That is also something I have told you. I know you will learn as you do things. I am not good in all things. I except that. That is only natural. In things I am good at, I had to work at it and practice. There was work and struggle, learning from what worked and what failed. That has shaped me to who I am today, as it should for others... We should be able to learn from our mistakes and not relive them. Things are not always easy or natural. 

I don't know who sets "normal." That is a mystery to me and I don't understand people who try to measure themselves to that. I certainly do not think of myself as being normal. LOL.

Be well my friend. You will do just fine.


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

routergieck said:


> I agree with Doug's reply. Personally I use biscuit joinery in almost all of my non -corner joints because they are fast, easy and never have any alignment problems.I probably tried dowels too early in my woodworking and never really got over some of the traumatic experiences when thos suckers don't line up!!


Interesting. I first used dowels when putting together a small cherry wood bookcase. When I was in the 10th grade. Used a brace and bit to drill the holes, no problems whatsoever. That was in 1954/5. Still got the bookcase, and it's as solid as it was new. I did have a pretty good shop instructor. Back then, our first year of shop was in the 9th grade. No power tools until the 10th grade tho.


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

(Bump)

Thread has been reopened.. 

play nice..

bill


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

TwoSkies57 said:


> (Bump)
> 
> Thread has been reopened..
> 
> ...


I am getting the feeling that most of the negative thinking on dowels is that they can give one real heart burn if not done perfectly and the absence of a good tool or jig is the cuprilt, not the concept. I have experimented with the JessEm jig enough to have a lot of confidence in it's accuracy.

Would some other members that have the JessEm jig like to comment on it and tell me if they agree with me or if they have found any fatal flaw in there use that I may have over looked. since we are discussing the advantages and disadvantages of both biscuits and dowels and so far dowels are the ones that seem to get least support, I'm of the opinion at this point that we might need to discuss why dowels are less popular. It seems that dowels would be stronger than biscuits, but they do have to be installed properly. O.K. I'm waiting for comments.

Jerry


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

I've noted about strength. Now for the other side of it. Each step up is stronger, but more labor and skill intensive/

- Pocket screws are easier to do than than cutting biscuits. You only tool one side. Then sink a screw into the other side. I glue and clamp the side together to help prevent the screws from kicking that opposite side from kicking out while attaching them. Ise them allot with cabinet face frames, where the off side is not seen (it is not a blind joint)... and other adjacent joints are going to help strengthen it.

- Biscuits are easier to do than dowels. It is a blind joint, meaning it is hidden, not seen when finsihed. It is a lose tenon joint, where you extend the surface of the glued joint. They help keep things alighed and together whiel gue dries. Wafers them selves are usually pressed hardwood. Being "pressed" the grain is compromised during that process. Being you are cutting a slot in two sides of a joint and putting it together, it takes more care in getting those cuts lined up for that... but the way a biscuit jointer does that makes that easy (with a little practice). The grooves and biscuits are not a tight-pressed fit, so there is room for fudging that alignment until the glue dries. Example of how it holds things together and aligned-- As a finish carpenter/joiner-- at the one million dollar mark (value of a home) we when from butt joints in trim, to adding biscuits in trim, to hold them in closer alignment, for longer years of service.

Dowels are harder to do than biscuits. I started doing these years ago with dowel pins and freehand electric drills. Many people are going to give up if they start out that way. Holes need to be fairly lined up with each other in relation to the pieces you are putting together. There are jigs to make that all easier and more accurate. That is hard to do freehand. I've done it long enough to be able to do some freehand, but have had enough failure rate at that, to know that that technique has a high failure rate. It is a sronger join...but learning to do it well and easily has probably turned most people away from it. Get or make yourself a doweling jig and learn to use it. I use dowel on higher end cabinets and even used them in conjunction with spliine joints. Some people think you need to have a pressed fit... Actually not so. It should be a loose to lose-snug fit. That what you can still adjust the alignment until the glue dires... and you leave run for there to be enough glue for a good bond.

Oblong floating tenons. Very good joint. Takes the skill of doing dowels, so laying out for the mortises (holes) take care and time. Easily done with a good jig and router. Strong joint. Again, leave room between for glue and alignment adjustment. I hate to plug a brand or imply to someone to spend money, but the domino system made this easy to do, just as a biscuit jointer did foe doing bisicuits. A good router jig comes in second. I do this for higher end furnishing, cabinet facings, etc.

Spline joints and joining... (including drawer lock and miter lock joints)-- You extend the glue surface more so the joint is just stronger(bigger period). You pn the joints so the slpine and grain help hold things together. Takes time in setup and tooiling, Diffrent slpine joints are easier to lineup with other pieces and are more or less forgiving than others. You have to use your head and pplan ahead and it takes math to get things setup and lined up with eact other... but when done right and it goes together,,, I feel stronger (within it own applications) than traditional M&T joining and more forgiving with alignment. I do this on cabinet boxes and joining cabinet faces to those boxes.

M&T -- strong, rough service, HD applications... Usually where the customer wants to pay for it and usually requests it. Although low end applications for chairs and benches, work tables, etc. Takes skill and time to get the alignment and both pieces fitted. I do a lot of my tenons on my panel saw or a router table. Mortises with a router, a drill and chisels.


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

Jerry Bowen said:


> I am getting the feeling that most of the negative thinking on dowels is that they can give one real heart burn if not done perfectly and the absence of a good tool or jig is the cuprilt, not the concept. I have experimented with the JessEm jig enough to have a lot of confidence in it's accuracy.
> 
> Would some other members that have the JessEm jig like to comment on it and tell me if they agree with me or if they have found any fatal flaw in there use that I may have over looked. since we are discussing the advantages and disadvantages of both biscuits and dowels and so far dowels are the ones that seem to get least support, I'm of the opinion at this point that we might need to discuss why dowels are less popular. It seems that dowels would be stronger than biscuits, but they do have to be installed properly. O.K. I'm waiting for comments.
> Jerry


Been a long time since I used dowels. I have plans to use some in a project for my grand-daughter, as soon as I come up with a design I really like - a small chest in fact. The dowels will be for decoration mostly, but I anticipate no problem with accuracy. I'll just drill pilot holes thru the two pieces involved at the same time, and repeat untill finished. If it turns out I will need a jig or fixture, no problem, I'll make one. In fact, could even just drill a hole thru one, and put in short pieces. My personal thought is that dowels are stronger than biscuits. Regardless, I think dowels are also simpler (read cost less for tools to use them) than biscuits. I also think glue strips are probably stronger than biscuits, and very simple. I have no problem aligning pieces, for a chest say, with clamps, or have been known to make glue-up jigs, also simple to use, and simple to make.


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

I have used dowels, biscuits, pocket screws, splines and mortise and tenon in various projects over the years. (oh and 'but' joints...)

Each has it's own uses, IMO, some add strength [ m&t, pocket screws and dowels] some make alignment easier.

The most important aspect is that the pieces to be joined be flat and square..

To get back to Jerry's original question (biscuits v dowel), it depends which is more important. Dowels for alignment and strength, biscuits where alignment is the major factor.

For a frame, I would use dowels. My first choice would be M&T, but Jerry has excluded that joint.


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

jw2170 said:


> I have used dowels, biscuits, pocket screws, splines and mortise and tenon in various projects over the years. (oh and 'but' joints...)
> 
> Each has it's own uses, IMO, some add strength [ m&t, pocket screws and dowels] some make alignment easier.
> 
> ...


James,
While I have indeed excluded M&T joints in the question. I sure do agree that they would be a good choice. The truth of the matter is that I have wanted to use my new doweling jig and have planned to do so, but really wanted Harry's input due to his earlier encouragement to use biscuits. His reasoning on the biscuits was very good and came from his honest observation about my vision issue. Just for the record, my vision problem would not be an issue if I were to use dowels, this is due to the way the JessEm dowieling jig is made and how it is used. The issue with my vision is primarily that of seeing well enough to read detail in which I need magnification to do so. Obviously I am wanting to use my new dowling jig.

Right now, due to recent rain in West Texas I have been very busy cutting grass and weeds that have sprung up. I have about two acres of ground that I have to keep mowed and trimmed up, about half of that is actual lawn. Consequently I am spending any time in the shop. 

I was working on the lid to the chest project and really got it screwed up due to not taking Harry''s advise about using biscuits when fitting the frame to the lid. I don't have enough material on hand to start over on the lid and will have to drive a hundred miles each way t buy more material. When I do that I'll buy enough material for the new lid plus enough for a second chest. I'm sure that I am repeating myself, but I don't recall all of what I have said earlier, so just bare with me and skip what you don't want to read.

By the way, the term "floating tenon" keeps coming up and I am not sure what this term means unless it is the joint that uses a large piece that resembles a very large biscuit that fits into the space that a normal tenon would fit but is not part of one of the two pieces. I have seriously been wondering buying the jig for that type of joint.

Jerry


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

Jerry,,, these links should provide a nice explanation of "loose tenons" or "floating tenon" for you: 

Loose Tenon Joinery - Woodworking Techniques - American Woodworker

Router Joinery Basics: Loose Tenons - YouTube

Floating Tenons. - YouTube

There are other methods but the concept remains the same...


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

TwoSkies57 said:


> Jerry,,, these links should provide a nice explanation of "loose tenons" or "floating tenon" for you:
> 
> Loose Tenon Joinery - Woodworking Techniques - American Woodworker
> 
> ...



Bill,

I had just looked at the Mortis Pal on the net, haven't looked at the ones that you sent the links to yet, but the morise pal is abit spendy, I was somewhat surprised. I'll be looking at the ones you just sent the links to. Thanks,

Jerry


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## Al B Thayer (Jun 2, 2014)

Well James. Tests show the biscuit is stronger than dowels. Myself I haven't used dowels for 35 years and don't see a need for them anymore. It's too easy and faster to use other methods.

Al


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

Jerry Bowen said:


> Bill,
> 
> I had just looked at the Mortis Pal on the net, haven't looked at the ones that you sent the links to yet, but the morise pal is abit spendy, I was somewhat surprised. I'll be looking at the ones you just sent the links to. Thanks,
> 
> Jerry


Just watched the demo on you tube about making the jig. If that is what the man referred to as simple, I can't image what one would be like that he calls complex. You guys and gals that see this as being simple are very gifted and just probably can't imagine wny someone like myself seeing it to be simple too. I don't but suspect that if I just did one step at a time I could master it, just can't get in in one pass. This is an example of why Harry loves photos so much. It's just a natural for him the say his mind works. My brother is like that, but my mind doesn't work the same way I guess. Anyway, looks like a project for the future, I like it, but right now I better stay with what is in front of me with the cedar chest build. Thanksa again Bill, the Mortise Pal is looking better all the time.

Jerry


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

Al B Thayer said:


> Well James. Tests show the biscuit is stronger than dowels. Myself I haven't used dowels for 35 years and don't see a need for them anymore. It's too easy and faster to use other methods.
> 
> Al


What tests? Quote:
"What we hear most – and agree with - is that biscuits joints serve best as a quick and easy way to keep glue-up parts in alignment, and that they add appreciable pull-apart to strength joints that would be otherwise too weak to stand on their own – like butt joints and miter joints. Doweled joints, on the other hand, are stronger – especially when it comes to shear strength – but usually take longer to make. This popular conclusion also echoes the findings of the “Wood Joint Torture Test”, published in the November, 2006 issue of Wood magazine, where dowels and biscuits were actually tested against one another under stress in a variety of joints."

From here: Doweling vs. Biscuit Joints / Rockler How-to


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

Jerry...

ANY of the methods presented within this thread are certainly applicable to your project. I believe that all would work, and work quite well. There are perhaps even a few that have not been mentioned. Some methods will undoubtedly provide a mechanical advantage by design but in application add very little to this particular build and therefore do not warrant the additional expense for new equipment. 
I humbly suggest that you stay focused on the two methods originally questioned. Either will provide you with the needed strength and durability needed for a successful project. You have gained the experience of using both and I do believe you are both confident and comfortable with the application of either. 
The grass isn't always greener, but sometimes it is.. for now, however. stay in your own yard 
It is not hard to find advocates for any of the methods mentioned. When it comes to joinery, that ole cat gets skinned 6 ways from Sunday and then some. Of the two methods you've queried about, I'm not a big fan of biscuits as you know. I do however use em when its makes sense. In fact, I used them on the seat for my rocker build. Just because that was the suggested method for joining the boards. The advantage to biscuits has been mentioned repeatedly. Ease of application and you get a bit of wiggle room during assembly. It is also generally agreed that biscuits are stronger than dowels. "Generally", not unanimously. The down side to biscuits is that they have been known to swell after application and create small rises on the surface of the wood above. This often can be found on softer woods and in thinner stock. I've had this happen a few times, but never to the extent that it presented a real problem. A little extra sanding and all was well. Dowels on the other hand in my opinion provide a stronger joint. I realize I may be completely wrong about that and most of the data you'll find won't support my thinking. But it works for me. Application of dowels can be extremely difficult without quality tooling. Without quality tooling, its extremely difficult to get proper alignment of the work pieces. Though not impossible!!! You just got to be real good, real lucky or real experienced (or any combination of the three) to do dowels freehand or even with a modest doweling jig. You have a quality jig, and have become proficient in its use. Any errors you've encountered have been recognized and adjustments made to your technique. 
For this particular application I'd personally say that the biscuits have an advantage over the dowels in so much as that during glue up, you can make some adjustments
to align your surfaces. 
Regardless of which you choose, its not uncommon to have some variation between surfaces especially when your looking at things from the .000 of an inch perspective. nothing is 100%, 100% of the time..


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## Al B Thayer (Jun 2, 2014)

JOAT said:


> What tests? Quote:
> "What we hear most – and agree with - is that biscuits joints serve best as a quick and easy way to keep glue-up parts in alignment, and that they add appreciable pull-apart to strength joints that would be otherwise too weak to stand on their own – like butt joints and miter joints. Doweled joints, on the other hand, are stronger – especially when it comes to shear strength – but usually take longer to make. This popular conclusion also echoes the findings of the “Wood Joint Torture Test”, published in the November, 2006 issue of Wood magazine, where dowels and biscuits were actually tested against one another under stress in a variety of joints."
> 
> From here: Doweling vs. Biscuit Joints / Rockler How-to


Not going to get into a board stretching contest here. I have never read any tests that say otherwise. Wood mag would not be my pick for anything above a whirly gig. Fine Woodworking however did build a dining chair out of them also proving they add a great deal of strength to joints.

Given that the blade cuts a wider joint than the biscuit and that when not cut perfectly. The biscuits and joint still can be mated properly. I have no idea how this would aid in joint alignment.

I also know from experience on forums. There are three words or subjects one should never engage in. Biscuits, Fe$tool and Kregg.

Al


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

JOAT said:


> What tests? Quote:
> "What we hear most – and agree with - is that biscuits joints serve best as a quick and easy way to keep glue-up parts in alignment, and that they add appreciable pull-apart to strength joints that would be otherwise too weak to stand on their own – like butt joints and miter joints. Doweled joints, on the other hand, are stronger – especially when it comes to shear strength – but usually take longer to make. This popular conclusion also echoes the findings of the “Wood Joint Torture Test”, published in the November, 2006 issue of Wood magazine, where dowels and biscuits were actually tested against one another under stress in a variety of joints."
> 
> From here: Doweling vs. Biscuit Joints / Rockler How-to



In this instance we are sure on the same page. My only knowledge is that I have used biscuits and like them, but since the actualy biscuit is not a thick as the slots that they fit into, they, by themselfsk, do not provide perfect alignment and as you point out, are not nearly as strong as dowels. I have only used dowels in experimenting with the new jig and find it to work extremely well. Obviously without a jig that works "perfectly" dowels will never work as intended. I know that this post hs not added any useful information, but it just agrees with you.

I have not yet heard back from anybody that has used the JessEm Doweling Jig more extensively than I have and sure would like to.

Jerry


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

TwoSkies57 said:


> Jerry...
> 
> ANY of the methods presented within this thread are certainly applicable to your project. I believe that all would work, and work quite well. There are perhaps even a few that have not been mentioned. Some methods will undoubtedly provide a mechanical advantage by design but in application add very little to this particular build and therefore do not warrant the additional expense for new equipment.
> I humbly suggest that you stay focused on the two methods originally questioned. Either will provide you with the needed strength and durability needed for a successful project. You have gained the experience of using both and I do believe you are both confident and comfortable with the application of either.
> ...


Bill,
Since this project has turned into one for learning and learning is coming from making mistakes, I have decided to try to use dowels. I spent nearly two hundred dollars for the JessEm Jig. It's important to me that I find out if it is of any real value to me or not. I will never know until I try it. How's that for rationaling.

I have been thinking that biscuits would be the way to go as far as keeping the frame of the lid in alignment with the edge of the lid. The wiggle room might be needed in order to get the mitered corners of the frame to fit properly. Cutting the slots a little long might help, actually a spine might evern be better. On the other hand, I am toying with another idea for the frame around the lid and that is to instead of using biscuits, to just cut rabbets into the top edge of the frame and dropping the lid into the rabbets. The lid would have to be cut to exact dimentions in order for this to work. In order to do this witness sticks along with the micro adjust feature of TS LS system would be employed. I have done this in the past. You need to use a "witness stick for both dimentions of course. 

A witness stick is first cut slightly long and then you sneak up on getting the length correct and setting the fence by making minute adjustments with the micro adjust. The witness stick is used like an inside micrometer to know when it the correct length of the stick is achieved and the fence is set correctly for the cut on the lid. All of what I have just described is commen sense to most readers but somebody out there may not know what I'm talking about. The clamp up of such an approach is very important and I had to learn the hard way but got educated by our good friend Dick Willis on how to clamp the frame up so that the entire parameter of the lid and the frame make good contact. 

I'm getting off of the main subject here so let's get back to the issue of using dowels, it just looks to me like doweles would be stronger that biscuits due to them being longer than biscuits are wide. 

By the way, before I bought the JessEm jig I bought a copy of the Dowelit jig. I did not use it correctly and got it out of calibration. It can be sent back to the manufacturer for calibaration but cost about $25 plus postage each way I think. 

If anybody would like to have the jig I would give it them, even pay the postage, I hate to see it just set here drawing dust and cobwets. I think that a person could get it calibrated without sending it into the factory by just puttzing with it, but if they can't, well, all it would cost them is the time they spent fooling with the darn thing. If anybody is interested just let me know. 

Jerry


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

boogalee said:


> I would use mortise and tenon joints and forget about dowels and biscuits.
> 
> Al



another vote M&T...


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

Jerry...I would submit that the Dowlit is still useful if you take off one of the ends. You can then drive the drill block all the way up and then clamp the piece to the wood. The problem I have had with the self-center'ers is not all wood is the same size. I've had better success by only using one end and clamping.

Just a thought...it'll save you some shipping 

Nick


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

Jerry: 

"Since this project has turned into one for learning and learning is coming from making mistakes, I have decided to try to use dowels. I spent nearly two hundred dollars for the JessEm Jig. It's important to me that I find out if it is of any real value to me or not. I will never know until I try it. How's that for rationaling."

You'll get no argument from me..


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

Nickp said:


> Jerry...I would submit that the Dowlit is still useful if you take off one of the ends. You can then drive the drill block all the way up and then clamp the piece to the wood. The problem I have had with the self-center'ers is not all wood is the same size. I've had better success by only using one end and clamping.
> 
> Just a thought...it'll save you some shipping
> 
> Nick


Nick, now that I have the JessEm, I'll never use the Dowelit, that's why I would like to give it to somebody that could or would it.

Jerry


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

TwoSkies57 said:


> Jerry:
> 
> "Since this project has turned into one for learning and learning is coming from making mistakes, I have decided to try to use dowels. I spent nearly two hundred dollars for the JessEm Jig. It's important to me that I find out if it is of any real value to me or not. I will never know until I try it. How's that for rationaling."
> 
> You'll get no argument from me..


Didn't think I would.

Jerry


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

Stick486 said:


> another vote M&T...



Do suppose that JessEm would refund my money and if not what should I do with the jig that I spend all that money on? If the dowels don't work I can strart over nd put the jig in the dumster. I'm goint to try it before I concede that you are right about M&T and well might be. I reserve the right to be wrong. I think that we are both about as stubborn as the other, don't you?

Jerry


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## Daikusan (Apr 12, 2013)

vindaloo said:


> Oh so true :jester:


No problem! Plug the hole and try again.:blink::blink:


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Jerry Bowen said:


> Do suppose that JessEm would refund my money and if not what should I do with the jig that I spend all that money on? If the dowels don't work I can strart over nd put the jig in the dumster. I'm goint to try it before I concede that you are right about M&T and well might be. I reserve the right to be wrong. I think that we are both about as stubborn as the other, don't you?
> 
> Jerry


Jerry...
I have that jig..
it's great...
I believe it's operator and not jig issues..
If you are really going to dumpster it, let me know.... I would love to have another...


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

Stick486 said:


> Jerry...
> I have that jig..
> it's great...
> I believe it's operator and not jig issues..
> If you are really going to dumpster it, let me know.... I would love to have another...


Stick,
I'm so confident in the jig that I seriously doubt if it will be dumpted. Since you own one, you know why I'm so conficent that it work for the project.

Jerry


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

JOAT said:


> What tests? Quote:
> "What we hear most – and agree with - is that biscuits joints serve best as a quick and easy way to keep glue-up parts in alignment, and that they add appreciable pull-apart to strength joints that would be otherwise too weak to stand on their own – like butt joints and miter joints. Doweled joints, on the other hand, are stronger – especially when it comes to shear strength – but usually take longer to make. This popular conclusion also echoes the findings of the “Wood Joint Torture Test”, published in the November, 2006 issue of Wood magazine, where dowels and biscuits were actually tested against one another under stress in a variety of joints."
> 
> From here: Doweling vs. Biscuit Joints / Rockler How-to


Theo- I have to agree with you Theo.

My real world experience, seeing what lasts and fails at customers residences... and have to take apart, break down, rebuild, repair and sometimes to destroy things with different joining techniques... Just don't show biscuit joining as being better/stronger than dowels.

When I started, years ago when I was an apprentice... and many years later as a Master Carpenter training apprentices... one thing we did do was have them practice a joining techniques, then have them make it fail. Doing that, you can see for yourself what works and doesn't. That sort of breaks the molds on a lot of myths. Also gives someone the practice to make things better and stronger. 

I can't say that was or is universal, but it taught me allot about how things really worked. (or not)

I know Jerry just got a new doweling jig and has been practicing. I think that would do well. 

I know he also has a new miter-lock joint bit, which would do well.

If he had a mind to, he could combine using both... Or do a miter-lock with adding contrasting colored dovetail keys... (Like I mentioned before.) I know he is aching to practice with that miter-lock bit. Harry has done a few threads on spline key jigs, which could be converted easily to cutting dovetail keys... And Jerry does have an Incra system. You want to practice on things with higher end furnishing... And other higher skills...

*** Like I started getting into, sometimes my customers see or know something is built a certain way, and they willing to pay extra for that. I have customer that looks for dovetails and M&T joiining. They are willing to pay extar to have that. Most M&T joining, you do not see... But if they can see dovetails... they take interest. It is distincintive and shows a higher skill level. Dovetails keys are done into mitered joints... and what better than to add them to a good-miter lock joint, eh?

I've done a lot of M&T joining. I've only done 2 end-of-bed blanket chest in what could be considered true Mortise an tenon joinery. That is one furnishing that you just don't commonly think of M&T joinery in it's construction. Those two were raised panel chests, with the frames were rail and stile with M&T joinery. 

Spline joinery is more common in the higher end chests. Some others that could have remotely or absractly been considered as M&T, but were still more along the lines of blind dados or partial splines... just throwing out ideas...


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## JIMMIEM (Apr 4, 2010)

Jerry Bowen said:


> Mike,
> This post is, in my opinion anyway, an outstanding tretise on the subject of joinery. As everyone that follows me on the foum knows, I did buy the miter lock bits and with the set up jig I was able to make the cuts right off the bat. Also, as I said, all of the parts for my project are cut out including the corners with the miter lock joints cut in them. I got hung up in my attempt to construct the lid, spent a lot of time trying to overcome a mistake, consequently the assembly of the chest really got delayed. This thread got started and the subject of the miter lock joint has come up and may be a good thing. I say that because if it had not come up and I had gone ahead and used the design and it did not work, I would have been in for another disappointment. However, I'm not certain that you completely nixed the idea. The material is 3/4" thick. That means that the the distance across the 45 degree cut is .75 x 1.4142" or about .86" and the miter lock cuts are cut into that increasing the surface considerably more than that which when your explanatation is applied, that being the importance of surface area, the joint begins to look like it "might work".
> 
> This is where I get into trouble with my interest in woodworking. I think along these lines of seeing that something might work and just can't leave it alone until I try it and find out for myself why it will or won't work. Finding out for myself is the lure of it and what causes some to not understand. I have no problem with finding out that I'm wrong, that is how I learn which is repeat of what I have said so many times before..
> ...


Jerry, I'm not going to weigh in on the different methods.....I just use the tools that I have. If you enjoy wood working and experimenting then keep the tools and keep at it. Nobody ever said that only world class level craftsman should do it and everybody else should sell their tools and go home. If you build it and it doesn't work at least you will have learned from your own experience and it will be easier the next time. If it's not an issue of time or $ then have fun, experiment, and then you will be the expert on what does and doesn't work! Lastly, don't take life too seriously because nobody gets out alive.


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## WillieOsgood (Jul 14, 2019)

*Biscuit Jointer Recommendations*

Looking to buy a Biscuit jointer and, based on your experience, would like some inputs on which brands and models you feel I should seriously consider.

Thanks

Willie Osgood


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

I have a Porter Cable 557 and I've used Dewalts (can't remember a model number). The PC is more versatile in my opinion in that it can be adjusted in more ways, especially if you want to reinforce miter joints, but the DWs I used seemed more powerful even though they were a bit lighter.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

I did something similar withy a wood counter top, used dowels, but just couldn't get the top sections close to OK. Cut it apart and did it again with biscuts, then spent manydays sanding. Today I would have used either pocket screws or a spline.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

spline....


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Being in Australia I can't suggest a brand for members in America but I can state that since I bought a cheap GMC (no longer in business) biscuit jointer I have never used dowels, which require careful measuring and in my opinion many of the dowelling jigs on the market leave a lot to be desired. Biscuits on the other hand require no measuring and give perfect alignment, a surprising amount of strength and the adhesive does the rest.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

I have and occasionally use the Porter Cable. Nice machine, pretty fast to use.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

DesertRatTom said:


> I did something similar withy a wood counter top, used dowels, but just couldn't get the top sections close to OK. Cut it apart and did it again with biscuts, then spent manydays sanding. Today I would have used either pocket screws or a spline.


On something like a table top or where you need to edge join 2 or more boards with insurance that they won't pull apart and have the joint crack then I would also use splines. But on something like a picture frame miter where you don't want the spline to show then biscuits are hard to beat. Even if you didn't care if the spline showed, a biscuit joiner is much quicker. The biscuit joiner is also good for joining something like an apron to the underside of a table top if you are working with composite materials where there is no expansion and contraction. They can be good for joining melamine panels together in that way too. Melamine doesn't hold screws well so I like to use biscuits and dowels to reinforce joints.

So, in my opinion at least, biscuits do have their place in woodworking.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Harry, I never even thought about using biscuits on a mitred edge . I have a Dewalt biscuit cutter and will certainly try it one day .
I’ve heard some materials expand to much with biscuits and glue ?


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Although biscuits are designed to expand in the slot, the slots also have a bit of play in them. So it's a s much the glue causing the swelling as any other factor, which means that a spline can also cause swelling. Experts advise to wait a few days after gluing to allow the water to finish evaporating out of the wood before sanding and finishing. This lets the swelling go down so that it isn't a problem. I've read of people who sanded right away to level and then wound up with a dished surface days later.


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

The first one I had was the PC in the 90's. It was excellent,we used them on the job extensively. now I have a Ryobi, and it does good too, I don't have occasion to use it much.
Herb


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## roofner (Aug 1, 2010)

My vote is also pocket holes but it is really what your most comfortable. Gluing up panels I use Dowels or be lazy and buy panels already glued up.


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## denniswoody (Dec 11, 2011)

Biscuits allow a sloppy fit which is nice is certain applications like edge gluing. They do not provide as much strength as dowels or tenons so cannot be used in high stress applications like chairs. I have never had a problem with swelling but apparently it is something to be careful about. A biscuit is not the equivalent of a spline or floating tenon and should not be used in place of either.


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

WillieOsgood said:


> Looking to buy a Biscuit jointer and, based on your experience, would like some inputs on which brands and models you feel I should seriously consider.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Willie Osgood





G'day Willie, and welcome to the forum.


Most response seem to be dowels v biscut v spline, not offering any brand.


Like Harry, I cannot recommend as in Australia...


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