# The utter stupidity of Imperial measurements



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

especially where template guides and cutters are concerned. I asked Jim's advice as to what guides and cutters the average amateur routologist would be likely to have, so that I could produce another tutorial for beginners that was truly done the "American" way. Jim drew my attention to the fact that he couldn't find any metric guides on the net, so, not disbelieving him, but curious, I did a Google search with similar results, I did however find these two sites, the first offering a kit which contained both a 51/64" and a 1" as well as a 3/4", the last two of which I was hoping to base the next tutorial on, but the 51/64", how many of you have the means to measure in 64ths let alone calculate off-sets! I think that this unusual figure is close to 20mm and the 1 35/64" that I've seen several times is pretty close to 40mm, there we go, the wonderful 40mm guide that I'm always using. The second site actually sells a 40mm guide!
To those members who are/have become bored with my constant pushing of metric measurements, tough titty as an infamous follower of some Maharishi or other once replied when being interviewed on TV!
For members who can see the advantages of metric guides and cutters, make it known to retailers, distributors and even the actual manufacturers, or if you can't wait that long, perhaps you should have a go at OakPark, our sponsors who, I believe have equipment capable of making template guides! Have a good day my friends and fellow members.

http://www.woodworksupplies.com.au/category89_1.htm

http://www.festoolcanada.com/accessories/routers/template-guides-metric.html


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## Al Robins (Jul 13, 2009)

HA HA Go Get 'em Harry.....while your there try sorting out the nuts/bolts/screws/washers ...what a circus...Best of British Luck .......Regards....AL:fie:


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## jlord (Nov 16, 2009)

Not to mention material sizes like 4/4 (four quarter) which starts out as 1" rough sawn but is closer to 13/16" after both sides have surfaced & still labeled 4/4. How about 1x material that actually measures 3/4". It can get pretty confusing.


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## Gene Howe (Jul 10, 2007)

Couldn't agree more!


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## bill kay (Aug 12, 2007)

Just a thought, 

Skilled engineers, using fractions and inches, as well as a slide rule or two developed everything from modern medicine, farming, aviation and space exploration. These enlightened engineers, again using fractions and inches, even put a man on the moon.

Possibly your difficulty with tried and true measurement scales is actually a training deficiency.


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## Cochese (Jan 12, 2010)

:laugh:

I will say, it's completely pointless to hound one company, or one set of things to be completely different than everything else. No point having one tool use metric and another use imperial.

And the entire tool industry isn't going to bow to pressure from a handful of people. Waste of time. Even if they did, you'd have to go after the lumber industry next.

Measurements are measurements. It really doesn't matter what I use, as long as I use the same one from piece to piece. While it would be nice to have a base-10 system for everything, it's not going to happen. Much bigger fish to fry.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

bill kay said:


> Just a thought,
> 
> Skilled engineers, using fractions and inches, as well as a slide rule or two developed everything from modern medicine, farming, aviation and space exploration. These enlightened engineers, again using fractions and inches, even put a man on the moon.
> 
> Possibly your difficulty with tried and true measurement scales is actually a training deficiency.


I don't doubt for a moment what you say but here we are not professional fine furniture makers, the majority of members are like me, amateur woodworkers. Many of course are professionals in other fields, like dentistry, electronics, electrical engineering, mechanical engineering etc. But, it doesn't alter the fact that in routing, template guides and cutters are are so much easier to calculate off-sets which is an important part of advanced routing. As a matter of interest, how do YOU measure a 51/64" template guide?


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Cocheseuga said:


> :laugh:
> 
> I will say, it's completely pointless to hound one company, or one set of things to be completely different than everything else. No point having one tool use metric and another use imperial.
> 
> ...


Chris, with routing, it doesn't matter what size the wood is, it can be sawed, go through the thickness planer to make it an exact size, whether this is Imperial or metric make no difference, but when deciding on cutter and guide sizes, they are fixed and and one has to choose the fixed sizes of these in order to calculate off-sets which for many projects can be critical, that being so, how is the average member going to deal with the likes of 1 35/64" and 51/64". Correct me if I'm wrong, but my feeling is that you haven't actually experienced plunge routing using templates, male and female.


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## Cochese (Jan 12, 2010)

harrysin said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but my feeling is that you haven't actually experienced plunge routing using templates, male and female.


Point being?


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## bill kay (Aug 12, 2007)

harrysin said:


> As a matter of interest, how do YOU measure a 51/64" template guide?


Put simply, Use a ruler .... About 3 bucks .... Problem solved .....

http://www.micromark.com/displaygroup.aspx?DisplayID=9051&map=web&sc=WGB&utm_source=GoogleBase&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=GoogleBase[/URL]

Regards,


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## Knothead47 (Feb 10, 2010)

What's really bad is to have a car that has both metric and SAE fasteners on it. I had a 1986 Buick and couldn't figure out why the socket didn't fit the oil drain properly. Found out it was 16 mm. Ever try to find a 16 mm socket? Sets jump from 15 to 17! Finally found one at a surplus store. Fit perfectly. Sold car, still have socket JIC (just in case).
Harry, I know what you mean but the metric/English system has been debated since the hills were built. Maybe one of these days..........?


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Cocheseuga said:


> Point being?


You would understand what I'm talking about if you had the experience of designing templates for routing. I'm not so naive to think that I alone could get a country like America to go metric, however I'm confident and patient enough to think that I can lead the charge for metric template guides and cutters, after all are there any Americans who can't deal with your decimal currency? I doubt that very much,that being the case, there would be nothing new to learn but a great deal to gain.


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## Cochese (Jan 12, 2010)

We seem to deal with inches just fine, too. It's only a bit of math.

And honestly, I'd much rather see a change to liquid measurements first, if we're picking priorities.


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## waynoe (Sep 29, 2004)

Harry
LOL It gets even dumber. Being Canadian I grew up on the imperial system, but when I was in my twenties they converted to the metric system. I am a surveyor by trade so I like working in decmals of a foot. You can still find old drawings in chains, just to add to the confusion. I show up to work on jobs that can be either metric or imperial. When they are mechanical jobs, buildings and piping. ( I wonder about pipefitters and plumbers) every time without fail I have to convert every drawing to imperial. Carpenters especially the older guys (my age) I have to convert to imperial. The young guys are so confused they work kinda half and half. (cut me 150mm peice of 3/4 ply.) I agree with you the metric system is easier, but I still find myself converting most things to decmals of a foot because fractions are confusing and old habbits are hard to change.
I am so confused
Wayne


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## rwyoung (Aug 3, 2008)

harrysin said:


> I don't doubt for a moment what you say but here we are not professional fine furniture makers, the majority of members are like me, amateur woodworkers. Many of course are professionals in other fields, like dentistry, electronics, electrical engineering, mechanical engineering etc. But, it doesn't alter the fact that in routing, template guides and cutters are are so much easier to calculate off-sets which is an important part of advanced routing. As a matter of interest, how do YOU measure a 51/64" template guide?


Harry, I think what he was trying to say is that all the metric bushings and guides were left up on the surface of the moon. 

Obviously a bit more math but have you considered offering a set of rings that could be press-fit or epoxied onto some of the the standard Imperial guide sizes to make them into metric? I haven't given it any more thought than to write the above sentence. Figuring out wall-thicknesses and machining issues would be quite an undertaking.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

rwyoung said:


> Harry, I think what he was trying to say is that all the metric bushings and guides were left up on the surface of the moon.
> 
> Obviously a bit more math but have you considered offering a set of rings that could be press-fit or epoxied onto some of the the standard Imperial guide sizes to make them into metric? I haven't given it any more thought than to write the above sentence. Figuring out wall-thicknesses and machining issues would be quite an undertaking.


Rob, in several of my posts I've shown template guides that I've sleeved, I'll try to find a couple of shots. I've been able to do this just like Bj has, because we have metal lathes, but most members are not in the same position. An alternative would be to persuade the crew of the next moon landing to retrieve a bunch of those metric guides! The wall thickness doesn't enter into any calculations, however, the thinner the better, allows larger cutters to pass through also gives greater vision, and is why I prefer steel guides, they can have thin walls and still be strong.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

waynoe said:


> Harry
> LOL It gets even dumber. Being Canadian I grew up on the imperial system, but when I was in my twenties they converted to the metric system. I am a surveyor by trade so I like working in decmals of a foot. You can still find old drawings in chains, just to add to the confusion. I show up to work on jobs that can be either metric or imperial. When they are mechanical jobs, buildings and piping. ( I wonder about pipefitters and plumbers) every time without fail I have to convert every drawing to imperial. Carpenters especially the older guys (my age) I have to convert to imperial. The young guys are so confused they work kinda half and half. (cut me 150mm peice of 3/4 ply.) I agree with you the metric system is easier, but I still find myself converting most things to decmals of a foot because fractions are confusing and old habbits are hard to change.
> I am so confused
> Wayne


Wayne, you sound just the man to answer my serious question, how does the average amateur woodworker measure a 51/64" template guide, what instrument does one use, a steel rule, a dial vernier, a digital vernier or perhaps a micrometer?


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## Cochese (Jan 12, 2010)

Micrometer or calipers, probably.


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## Ghidrah (Oct 21, 2008)

I don't have issue with 32nds, 64ths or 128ths and or converting them from fraction to decimal and or back. Like anything, the more you use it the easier it is to use.

Like Knothead states, using metric and SAE on the same item is wrong. I have a few metric wrenches, sockets and allen wrenches but only for the odd metric bolt or nut that crops up.


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## reprosser (Apr 30, 2010)

When working with wood, do we really need to be accurate to a 64th ?


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Guys

I don't like to use the imperial or the metric system when the decimal system works for both....and just about anyone can get it right off the bat..

Dewey Decimal System/ used in 135 countries....
Dewey Decimal Classification - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://www.mathsisfun.com/numbers/fraction-decimal-chart.html
==========


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## waynoe (Sep 29, 2004)

Harry
calipers or micrometer, If it was me I would use a digital caliper (because I can't see anything else) and and try to be within a 32nd after all its only wood. I agree with Ronald if possible don't mix. because it can be really confusing. 
Wayne


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## tdublyou (Jan 8, 2010)

Bottom line here is that everyone is right, if you're use to one system or the other, that is what makes sense to you.
I have earned a living for the last 33 years using the imperial fractional inch system and, to me, it is a simple as it gets. That said I can absolutely see the ease, simplicity and continuity, that the metric system provides. I wouldn't hesitate for a second to convert to it and I think the imperial population in general would adapt relatively quickly, and by that I mean within a generation or so. What scares the daylights out of me however, is the logistics of converting entire industries, especially construction. The more I think about it the more complicated it gets.
This is a great discussion, but like other divisive issues, I doubt many minds will get changed here. But there's always hope, isn't there Harry?


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

All *I* could think of with that 51/64ths guide was it's approximately 20mm (slightly over), but 25/32nds would be closer. 

Chris.. I think his point is.. Let's see.. a 1/2" bit with a 51/64" guide... the offset would be... 19/128". Now *there's* a common number!

I must be missing something...


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Guys

I have playing with and buys guides for a long time and I can not get my head around why they make and sale the 51/64" someone back when they started to make them and sale them someone must have come up with that size . I tried at one time to run it down and not one person could tell me why they put that guide in all the sets.. 

One DA said because they have the pocket holes in the case and they need to fill them up with something  LOL

Router Accessories

I will say someone got smart and they put in a 1" guide in place for the 51/64" but not all sets come with the 1" one..

===========


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

tdublyou said:


> Bottom line here is that everyone is right, if you're use to one system or the other, that is what makes sense to you.
> I have earned a living for the last 33 years using the imperial fractional inch system and, to me, it is a simple as it gets. That said I can absolutely see the ease, simplicity and continuity, that the metric system provides. I wouldn't hesitate for a second to convert to it and I think the imperial population in general would adapt relatively quickly, and by that I mean within a generation or so. What scares the daylights out of me however, is the logistics of converting entire industries, especially construction. The more I think about it the more complicated it gets.
> This is a great discussion, but like other divisive issues, I doubt many minds will get changed here. But there's always hope, isn't there Harry?


Tim, as I said in post #12, I'll be happy for just routers, guides and cutters to change to metric, just like the US currency and if enough people push for it you may all be surprised. Don't forget, this is nothing to do with your government, just the tool industry. The result will be new projects posted from members around the world!


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## jlord (Nov 16, 2009)

bobj3 said:


> Hi Guys
> 
> I have playing with and buys guides for a long time and I can not get my head around why they make and sale the 51/64" someone back when they started to make them and sale them someone must have come up with that size . I tried at one time to run it down and not one person could tell me why they put that guide in all the sets..
> 
> ...


Bob
The reason they put the 51/64 guides in the sets was because they were originally supposed to be sent to the moon & someone loaded the wrong shipment & sent the metric guides by mistake. So now they have all those extra 51/64 guides that they give for free in the sets. The cost of the sets are for all the other guides but the 51/64 guide is added in like a gift with purchase.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Now that does make sense James seeing that no one has come up with a better suggestion.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

waynoe said:


> Harry
> calipers or micrometer, If it was me I would use a digital caliper (because I can't see anything else) and and try to be within a 32nd after all its only wood. I agree with Ronald if possible don't mix. because it can be really confusing.
> Wayne


I haven't ever seen callipers, dial or digital, which read eighths, sixteenths or thirty seconds, all the imperial ones that I have are in tenths, hundredths and thousandths of an inch but guides and cutters are not. I agree that normally in woodworking, a 32nd" is neither here nor there but in routing it sometimes is. An example being a routed box with a lid that is a good fit into it, here, in order to get accuracy, I often mix metric and imperial guides/cutters.


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## jlord (Nov 16, 2009)

Harry,
The newer digital calibers display mm, decimals, & now fractions. General Tools is one of the companies caliper that displays this. You can find these at Home Depot here in the states. They cost around $35.00. They are stainless with a metal housing around the display. There website shows a higher price then I paid at Home Depot.

Hand Tools, Specialty Hand Tools, Woodworking Tools, Test Instruments - General Tools & Instruments


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## BearLeeAlive (Mar 22, 2010)

Having extensively used both metric and imperial units, I can say without any doubt that metric is the way to go. There is just one unit of measure that corresponds with weight. volume and length, all based on one simple material, water. Basically, one cubic centimeter is one milliliter in volume, and one gram in weight. There is no 1/64 of an inch, 12 inches to a foot, 3 feet to a yard, 1580 yards to a mile. Larger measure and smaller measures all use the same numbers in metric, and only move the decimal place when referring to larger or smaller units. 1,000mm = 100cm = 1m = 0.001 km, etc.

With temperatures, 0ºC is freezing, 100ºC is boiling, you can't get simpler. I calorie is the amount of energy to raise one cc (cubic centimeter, gram) of water through 1 degree centigrade, another basic unit that transfers directly with different measures.

Bill, most engineers (yes, even the US ones) use metric when designing things like in the aerospace industry.

Wayne, your surveying example is a good one. I too used to do some. For others, what they to is to use decimal feet, basically metricizing imperial units. Gone were inches, and instead everything was in decimal feet (ie: 4.389 feet). I did do a couple industrial jobs where the designers had used fractional feet, and man was that ever a PITA. Try quickly adding 5'-0 9/16" + 190-'5" + 48'-9 1/4", and so on, especially before the advent of the foot-inch calculator.

Harry, my calipers measure millimeters, fraction and decimal inches. The fractional inches really have me thinking too hard, like when I measure something and it is 115/128, is that bigger than 7/8 or smaller, and if so by how many 1/128's? Too confusing for me, I just use the decimal inches or millimeters, and instantly can tell whether I am too big, or too small.

Then there is the ridiculous "nominal" measurements as James alluded to. A 2x4 is not really that size, 3/4 ply is not that either. And there is no standard to these nominal measurements, everything seems to have its own. It would be much easier to just call it what it really is.

Most of the entire world is metric, here in Canada we had to cave in with the lumber industry due to the demand of product in the US where metric wasn't to be adopted. When we were changing everything over, we did start using metric measures. I have built a house using metric, 400mm OC stud spacing, 1200x2400 sheets of ply, and so on. There still was no dimensional lumber that was in metric, so we used 38x89's (exact measurement of 2x4's) and the like. It sure was easy for the most part, but the tooling required by the lumber industry to put out both imperial and metric products was going to be too high.

All this said, I can use imperial without too many problems, but without a doubt believe that if everyone throughout the world used metric, not only would they have an easier time of measuring things, but the universality of it would be great too.


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## tdublyou (Jan 8, 2010)

Well said Jim


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Harry

I have one of the fractions combo caliper that I pickup off the net for 12.oo bucks.


=====


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

jlord said:


> Harry,
> The newer digital calibers display mm, decimals, & now fractions. General Tools is one of the companies caliper that displays this. You can find these at Home Depot here in the states. They cost around $35.00. They are stainless with a metal housing around the display. There website shows a higher price then I paid at Home Depot.
> 
> Hand Tools, Specialty Hand Tools, Woodworking Tools, Test Instruments - General Tools & Instruments


I'll start looking around these parts. I must confess to being intrigued when I read in the specifications: "accuracy: 0.0005" +/- 0.02mm" Talk about mixing metric and imperial!


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Jim, if only I had to ability to have put it all so clearly. Thank you so much for explaining it so that everyone will be in a better position to make the decision to at least push for routers, cutters and guides to become available in metric as well as imperial.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

bobj3 said:


> Hi Harry
> 
> I have one of the fractions combo caliper that I pickup off the net for 12.oo bucks.
> 
> ...


 Bob, if you miss seeing me on the forum for a while it will probably be because I'm searching ebay, Craig's list and Gumtree for a decent medium cost triple reading digital calliper.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Harry

Sounds good if you don't find one let me know and I will dig up the link for it 

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harrysin said:


> Bob, if you miss seeing me on the forum for a while it will probably be because I'm searching ebay, Craig's list and Gumtree for a decent medium cost triple reading digital calliper.


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## xplorx4 (Dec 1, 2008)

Hummm---This has been interesting.


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## BearLeeAlive (Mar 22, 2010)

THESE are the digital calipers I bought. Nor as cheap as some, but I know Lee Valley will stand behind them if something goes wrong.


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

jlord said:


> Bob
> The reason they put the 51/64 guides in the sets was because they were originally supposed to be sent to the moon & someone loaded the wrong shipment & sent the metric guides by mistake. So now they have all those extra 51/64 guides that they give for free in the sets. The cost of the sets are for all the other guides but the 51/64 guide is added in like a gift with purchase.


Ah James.. So *that's* what I was missing. I forgot to look in my Imperial <==> Lunar conversion tables!!


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## pal (Feb 13, 2008)

Very interesting, You buy a 2400 x 1200 mm sheet of ply,mdf or melamine here in Australia it's actual size is 2438 x 1220 mm or 8' x 4' still even after 20+ years
Harold


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## CanuckGal (Nov 26, 2008)

Some lumber outlets in Canada now sell ply and other woods in metric measurements. You have to be careful, ask for 3/4" ply, it may not be what you get. It's bad enough nominal measurements are already off, but throw metric into the mix and is't disasterous. I too was raised on the Imperial system and while I fully understand the metric system I am always doing the mental calculations back the "old" way. In my shop I work in feet and inches. Old habits are very hard to break.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

pal said:


> Very interesting, You buy a 2400 x 1200 mm sheet of ply,mdf or melamine here in Australia it's actual size is 2438 x 1220 mm or 8' x 4' still even after 20+ years
> Harold


That can actually be an advantage, a couple of weeks ago I went to Bunnings for a sheet of 300 x 9mm MDF for template making, unfortunately they didn't have any, only 600 x 9mm which would have been a waste, if ripped down the centre, both pieces would have been too narrow for my jig holders and ripping one piece exactly 300 would have left a useless piece. It was fortunate then that I asked the young guy to put his measure across it, what do you know, 607mm!
Non of this of course alters the fact that metric guides and cutters have great advantages over imperial. (I don't miss an opportunity to mention this, do I)


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

bobj3 said:


> Hi Harry
> 
> Sounds good if you don't find one let me know and I will dig up the link for it
> 
> =======


After vainly searching the internet I must now ask if you would please let me have a link Bob.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Harry

Here's just two of them I will need to dig for the 12.oo dollar one, I'm thinking it was off eBay, buy now thing...

6" Digital Fractional Caliper

Measuring,Marking and Layout Tools - Peachtree Woodworking Supply

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harrysin said:


> After vainly searching the internet I must now ask if you would please let me have a link Bob.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Thank you Bob for those links. Price isn't all that important but neither of those companies appear to ship to Australia.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Harry

You are welcome " Australia" sorry hahahahahahahahaha..


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harrysin said:


> Thank you Bob for those links. Price isn't all that important but neither of those companies appear to ship to Australia.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

General Tools 147 Digital Caliper 6" - - Shopping.com

6"/150mm & Fractional Display Digital Vernier Calipers on eBay (end time 14-May-10 11:48:30 BST)

General Tools 147 Digital Caliper 6" - - Shopping.com
General Tools 147 Fraction+ Digital Fractional Caliper (6") Our groundbreaking Digital Fractional Caliper .... France Germany United Kingdom Australia USA ...
General Tools 147 Digital Caliper 6" - - Shopping.com

====


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Bob, I'm totally exhausted, I opened an account on each of them in turn but when I got to checkout it was either "because of warranty considerations, this item cannot be shipped to this country" The others when finally getting to the shipping cost, asked for virtually the same amount! The last one's cost was $A33.80 + $A33.10 shipping, from AUSTRALIA!
I'll have another try in the next day or two.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Harry

How about this one , if you like it I will get it and ship it to you ..let me know..

6" Digital Fractional Caliper

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harrysin said:


> Bob, I'm totally exhausted, I opened an account on each of them in turn but when I got to checkout it was either "because of warranty considerations, this item cannot be shipped to this country" The others when finally getting to the shipping cost, asked for virtually the same amount! The last one's cost was $A33.80 + $A33.10 shipping, from AUSTRALIA!
> I'll have another try in the next day or two.


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## Noob (Apr 18, 2009)

harrysin said:


> especially where template guides and cutters are concerned. I asked Jim's advice as to what guides and cutters the average amateur routologist would be likely to have, so that I could produce another tutorial for beginners that was truly done the "American" way. Jim drew my attention to the fact that he couldn't find any metric guides on the net, so, not disbelieving him, but curious, I did a Google search with similar results, I did however find these two sites, the first offering a kit which contained both a 51/64" and a 1" as well as a 3/4", the last two of which I was hoping to base the next tutorial on, but the 51/64", how many of you have the means to measure in 64ths let alone calculate off-sets! I think that this unusual figure is close to 20mm and the 1 35/64" that I've seen several times is pretty close to 40mm, there we go, the wonderful 40mm guide that I'm always using. The second site actually sells a 40mm guide!
> To those members who are/have become bored with my constant pushing of metric measurements, tough titty as an infamous follower of some Maharishi or other once replied when being interviewed on TV!
> For members who can see the advantages of metric guides and cutters, make it known to retailers, distributors and even the actual manufacturers, or if you can't wait that long, perhaps you should have a go at OakPark, our sponsors who, I believe have equipment capable of making template guides! Have a good day my friends and fellow members.
> 
> ...


Tough titty? That's as useless as tits on a warthog. 

When I was in elementary (around 1978-1979) they started teaching us the Metric system because that's what the rest of the world was going to be using. Here we are over 30 years later and we still mainly use imperial units. They still teach students how to read metric, but I would dare say most industries still use imperial units (civil, architecture, mechanical, etc.).

At work, we only use metric units on items that will be sent to China, and actually we use dual-dimensions so it has imperial and metric units. I have a tape measure that uses millimeter increments, but It stays in the drawer... well come to think of it I've never used it, but I do have one.

I guess this is just a rambling but I thought I would post anyway.


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## wolften (Dec 12, 2008)

...hey Harry, try your local friendly Carba Tec store


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## BearLeeAlive (Mar 22, 2010)

Noob said:


> When I was in elementary (around 1978-1979) they started teaching us the Metric system because that's what the rest of the world was going to be using. Here we are over 30 years later and we still mainly use imperial units. They still teach students how to read metric, but I would dare say most industries still use imperial units (civil, architecture, mechanical, etc.).


I see by your post you are quite young, maybe you have not had a chance to venture outside the US, either visiting or for work, but the rest of the world pretty much is metric. The US is the the only developed country I am aware of that still uses imperial. Yes, it works, but it is WAY more difficult to use.


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

Will Lee Valley ship to Australia, Harry?

Blindman's Fractional Electronic Caliper - Lee Valley Tools


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

bobj3 said:


> Hi Harry
> 
> How about this one , if you like it I will get it and ship it to you ..let me know..
> 
> ...


That one would be just perfect thanks Bob. I'll email you shortly.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

wolften said:


> ...hey Harry, try your local friendly Carba Tec store


I looked on line and they didn't list a triple reading one. Do you know something that I don't?


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Harry

That's great it's on the way to me..

*****
"Thank you for your purchase!

05-01-2010

Your web order # is: 100002867.

Your Harbor Freight order # is: 9277869.

You will receive an order confirmation email with details of your order and a link to track its progress."
******
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harrysin said:


> That one would be just perfect thanks Bob. I'll email you shortly.


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## wolften (Dec 12, 2008)

...Harry... the one I have from CarbyTec is triple reading. Give 'em a call


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## Cochese (Jan 12, 2010)

The one I got from Rockler does fractions, too. Got it on special, $10. It's currently $30.

As for 'Imperial is much harder to use...'

Well, obviously if you've been using it for 30 years, it isn't.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

BigJimAK said:


> Will Lee Valley ship to Australia, Harry?
> 
> Blindman's Fractional Electronic Caliper - Lee Valley Tools


Thanks for that Jim but Bob had already got it well in hand, he really is an amazing guy.


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## Swallow (Jan 13, 2010)

Growing up in a pattern shop as I did I find all of this confusion on metric or imperial rather funny. When working on patterns we frequently talked of splitting 64th's as it was S.O.P. If you want a real challenge sometime just try looking at a blueprint where your plus or minus tolerances on pickup points are + or - 5000" on a span of eight feet. All the while keeping in mind that the wood that one is using has to stay that way under foundry conditions of blistering heat and very wet sand.

Or try calculating the amount of warp to build into a pattern for a thin iron,steel or aluminum casting like a stove part so that the casting will come out straight, because if you build the pattern straight the casting will as the metal cools warp so much as to render the casting worthless. This is when measurements get really interesting.

Now I still have all of my pattern makers shrink rules, for all castable metals from lead to stainless and everything in between and they are all graduated in 64 th's and although they may well look the same, there's not, as each and every one is a slightly different length. It can all get very confusing, but imperial or metric is not confusing, you just use what you have. Just don't mix the two.


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## istracpsboss (Sep 14, 2008)

I don't know how I missed this thread earlier.

I generally prefer dial calipers to digitals having had digitals run out of juice at the wrong moment. My metric one is an East German one from the days when East Germany needed hard currency. Their precision tooling tradition in Suhl was of long standing and there was nothing wrong with it, despite the very low prices. 
I picked up a combined fractional and decimal inch one for 30 CDN from Workshop Supply not long ago and find it handy. I work happily in both metric and imperial although I'm with Harry on metric for guide bushes.

So far as sheet goods go, here in Croatia it is all metric, although when you look at the odd full sheet sizes, they are actually 8' x 4' most of the time, even if they are described in millimetres.

Talking of mixing units, I remember being in a steel stockholder in the UK after the UK had gone metric and their engineers muttering about having to calculate stress factors in beams when the lengths were in metric, but the cross sections were still coming from the rolling mills in imperial.
I can also remember cursing in the early hours of the morning, when I was working on changing a clutch on a Renault Dauphine, wondering why the socket wouldn't grip properly on one nut, only to realise that whilst all the others were metric, one was imperial. I never worked out why !
I've wartime works drawings for a Kriegslok and had to put the full collection together from more than one source. They weren't all of the same date. The earlier ones were metric, except that certain more highly stressed components actually used Whitworth threads, as the threadform is stronger. Presumably, they didn't have many sources of supply for Whit bolts and I guess they got bombed, as the later dated drawings showed all metric threads.

For surveying, I've used 360deg instruments, but also occasionally 400grad ones which were normally ex military, as IIRC NATO uses grads. A right angle is 100 grads rather than 90degs, so metric of a sort. What do you use in the States, these days?

Some imperial stuff for surveying could be real fun. Chains were still in common use as a unit and rods,poles and perches showed up from time to time on old title deeds. We had one office on the Cheshire border and one of my jobs, if we were selling land in Cheshire, was to measure it, as old maps could show fields marked in acres that were actually Cheshire acres and these were over twice a normal acre, even though it would never actually mention the 'Cheshire' bit on them. Hectares are much simpler in comparison.

No-one mentioned paper sizes. The aspect ratio of the metric ISO sizes is constant and each size is half the next one up. The various folio, foolscap etc ones we used to use in the UK when I was a boy and which I think are still used in the States, are much more complicated. I once got a friend to bring over a box of transparent US pocket files as anything of US origin would not fit into the A4 ones that are standard across Europe.

Incidentally, although Europe is metric and most of it has been for a couple of hundred years, you can still find people in country markets in France and, I'm told, in Germany, occasionally selling things in something close to a pound, known as a livre in France. Most European countries had some sort of pound weight at one time, although, like the Cheshire acre, they weren't all exactly the same size. There were also feet, again varying from place to place. Hey, even a gallon varies from the US to the UK !

I've rambled enough !

Cheers

Peter


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

A very interesting post Peter.


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## GTVi (May 14, 2010)

bill kay said:


> Just a thought,
> 
> Skilled engineers, using fractions and inches, as well as a slide rule or two developed everything from modern medicine, farming, aviation and space exploration. *These enlightened engineers, again using fractions and inches, even put a man on the moon.*
> 
> Possibly your difficulty with tried and true measurement scales is actually a training deficiency.


Given this was before the days of the modern computer, they would have landed on the moon sooner if they used metric <Joke>

I enjoyed the imperial vs metric debate...:laugh: thank you gentlemen it certainly put a spin on this debate.

Australia did the imperial change to Metric in the 70's. I'm glad I experienced that transition.
And although a few old measurements still "stick" in our minds for some of us, having the ability of using both in times of need has served advantages.

And my favourite (spelled correctly) ruler always has both scales.
Cheers,
Bill

(BTW I hate the US spell checker)


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Bill, how could you forget that annoying jingle that was constantly broadcast for quite a while before the changeover, it included the words "the 14th of February 1966" which was the changeover date. I too have all my rules and measures in both metric and imperial and do in fact use both, especially on this forum!


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

harrysin said:


> Bill, how could you forget that annoying jingle that was constantly broadcast for quite a while before the changeover, it included the words "the 14th of February 1966" which was the changeover date. I too have all my rules and measures in both metric and imperial and do in fact use both, especially on this forum!



Hi Harry,

I remember it well> I worked in a bank at that time...LOL

Also, as this was in 1966, anyone under 44 yrs of age ( a great percent of the population??) have never used imperial.

Just for laughs, every now and then I change my Navman to miles/yards..

James


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

We actually use a mix of SI and English units in America on a regular basis... we talk about a 100 watt light bulb, not 340 BTU/hr and we buy our electric power in kilowatt-hours, not BTU's. Heat on the other hand... <g>

Say, I've got a question for one of you metric country folks. Is your motor power "real" or "ideal"? I'm not talking about friction, windage and the like but is it watts = volts x amps or does it include the effect of induction? For example, let's take a 1200 watt Triton router. How many amps does it read on the nameplate? I haven't seen it.

A 240V, 5A AC router may be 1200 VARS (volt-amps reactive) but it isn't really 1200 watts*. [technobabble below]


The power would be 240V * 5Amps * sin(x), where x is the angle between the voltage sine wave and the current sin wave. Since sin(x) in an AC motor will be less than 1, the power is lower. BTW, this aqpplies to US motors, which are only rated in Volts and Amps. They lie about the horsepower. <g> Well, technically they don't _lie_ but so significantly misconstrue the truth** that you can tell the ads are made by marketers, not engineers.

** Let's see, my *real* 5hp Unisaw draws 20A at 240V, while my Crapsman 6hp shop vac draws 10A at 120V.


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## GTVi (May 14, 2010)

harrysin said:


> Bill, how could you forget that annoying jingle that was constantly broadcast for quite a while before the changeover, it included the words "the 14th of February 1966" which was the changeover date. I too have all my rules and measures in both metric and imperial and do in fact use both, especially on this forum!


Actually I remember it well...but 1966 was the currency change to decimal, 1971 was the measurement changes to decimal. I still have the postage stamps of the day ( I was a stamp collector at the time)

To Quote the media...
_The change to decimal at the time affected all Australians in both their private and professional lives and has been recognized as one of the great reforms of our time._

By the way USA will change to metric, its only a matter of time, and they are using what Australia did as the model of what needs to be done. Fair dinkum. :laugh:

Cheers,
Bill


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Jim whereas motors generally are rated as "VA" routers oddly are rated in watts, 746 watts generally accepted as being 1hp. One can't be too pedantic when dealing with consumer products.

Bill, you are of course spot on with the dates, it's just that damn jingle that sticks in most peoples minds. I too believe that America will eventually go fully metric, though probably not in what's left of my lifetime. The forthcoming tie-up between Lowes and our Woolworths may see some changes to metric to cater for our market.


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## Indy (May 16, 2010)

I don't know why the U.S. doesn't switch to the Metric system, they have been teaching the metric system to elementary school kids for over 35 years here. Some day, but I don't see it happening in the near future.


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## RJM (Apr 11, 2010)

Aerospace in the United states uses mostly engineering units: inch/lbm/lbf :blink:

It's only difficult if you're not used to it (like speaking a language). :sarcastic:

All you need to know is that there are exactly 2.54 CM per inch and exactly 231 cubic inches per gallon, then you can pretty much convert anything. I know the math will be too hard for some but if you can figure out bushing offset then you should be able to do this too. 

Speaking of offset (no need for tables):
pattern inside the router path = (D-d)/2 (cutout is bigger by this amount - all around)
pattern outside the router path = (D+d)/2 (cutout is smaller by this amount - all around)

Note:
D = bushing diameter
d = bit diameter
assumption is that D is always greater than d.

:jester:


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## Lemuzz (Jul 25, 2008)

Knothead47 said:


> What's really bad is to have a car that has both metric and SAE fasteners on it. I had a 1986 Buick and couldn't figure out why the socket didn't fit the oil drain properly. Found out it was 16 mm. Ever try to find a 16 mm socket? Sets jump from 15 to 17! Finally found one at a surplus store. Fit perfectly. Sold car, still have socket JIC (just in case).
> Harry, I know what you mean but the metric/English system has been debated since the hills were built. Maybe one of these days..........?


16mm socket and spanner are standard in any metric set:moil:


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## Lemuzz (Jul 25, 2008)

pal said:


> Very interesting, You buy a 2400 x 1200 mm sheet of ply,mdf or melamine here in Australia it's actual size is 2438 x 1220 mm or 8' x 4' still even after 20+ years
> Harold


Kiwi's "converted" to metrics 1n 1967. As an engineer I still use both systems after 42 years as some customers still use and think imperial but we use metrics. Our machines are dual scale. Some thread cutting is still imperial. Some wallboards are available in imperial sizes along with metric sizes to satisfy the home renovator. It will take another generation or more to "forget imperial" It is easy to live with both systems and with measuring tools you measure in one and convert to another. My preferred system is by far metric because of its simplicity. Time is the one measurement which can't be metricated


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Murray, I've just produced another small routing project for beginners but this time I've used a 1" template guide and a 1/2" cutter but intend to add approx. metric measurements in the hope that it will satisfy everyone. I personally have difficulty with my metal lathe which is calibrated imperial but I turn in metric! It does however have metric and imperial change gears.


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## RJM (Apr 11, 2010)

Knothead47 said:


> What's really bad is to have a car that has both metric and SAE fasteners on it. I had a 1986 Buick and couldn't figure out why the socket didn't fit the oil drain properly. Found out it was 16 mm. Ever try to find a 16 mm socket? Sets jump from 15 to 17! Finally found one at a surplus store. Fit perfectly. Sold car, still have socket JIC (just in case).
> Harry, I know what you mean but the metric/English system has been debated since the hills were built. Maybe one of these days..........?



My Grizzly jointer has a fence adjustment 5/16-18 bolt with a 12mm head. I wanteds to repalce it with a longer, stronger bolt and it took me a minute (or two) to figure out it was not a metric thread. I love my Grizzly jointer. :moil:


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Bob

I'm almost sure it is metric ,, the 8mm and the 5/16-18 is almost the same thread the norm, the real quick way to tell is the 12mm hex head size.. makes it metric . the thread pitch is just off just a little bit but in cast iron it will be a bit lose.(comes from the 2A fit..) do this for a quick test pull out a 5/16-18 nut and pull out a 8mm tap and run it in the nut, you can almost do it by hand without the need of a vise to hold the nut..

=====



RJM60 said:


> My Grizzly jointer has a fence adjustment 5/16-18 bolt with a 12mm head. I wanteds to repalce it with a longer, stronger bolt and it took me a minute (or two) to figure out it was not a metric thread. I love my Grizzly jointer. :moil:


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## RJM (Apr 11, 2010)

bobj3 said:


> Hi Bob
> 
> I'm almost sure it is metric ,, the 8mm and the 5/16-18 is almost the same thread the norm, the real quick way to tell is the 12mm hex head size.. makes it metric . the thread pitch is just off just a little bit but in cast iron it will be a bit lose.(comes from the 2A fit..) do this for a quick test pull out a 5/16-18 nut and pull out a 8mm tap and run it in the nut, you can almost do it by hand without the need of a vise to hold the nut..
> 
> =====



Now that you mention it ... 

I thought I did try to fit different nuts over the different bolts but I don't really remember the details. I'm pretty sure that both bolts would accept the same nuts, which would mean that if it is a metric bolt, it would have to have to be an M8 x 1.5. Is this a standard size?

After thinking about it, I actually changed the bolt and the used the same nuts, so I suppose it could be metric. I'm not sure if an M8 x 1.5 will take a 5/16-18 nut. Anyone ever do this?

By the way - I'm not taking it out to check. I just recently checked the squareness of the fence with my new Beall Tilt Box and it's perfect (within measurement accuracy). I love my Beall Tilt Box. This is a must have for setting up fences as accurately as possible. I even used it to check my table saw miter gauge - it was off about 2/10's. Thank goodness ISO and Imperial (decimal) angles are measured the same way. It was 58° outside today. Is that hot, or cold?


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## Santé (Jan 14, 2010)

Hi all
The standard size for M8 is 1,25 mm (not 1.5mm)
The standard are: 

M3 0.5
M4 0.7
M5 0.8
M6 1
M8 1.25
M10 1.5
M12 1.75
M14 2

All in mm.

Santé


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

pal said:


> Very interesting, You buy a 2400 x 1200 mm sheet of ply,mdf or melamine here in Australia it's actual size is 2438 x 1220 mm or 8' x 4' still even after 20+ years
> Harold



Harold,

The last plywood I purchased from Mr Ply & wood was made in Brazil. So they probably just make one size.(imperial)

And, yes it was 2438 x 1220. I checked as I had trouble with some plywood I purchased from Bunnings.

They still advertise it as 2400 X 1200. 

James


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

harrysin said:


> especially where template guides and cutters are concerned. I asked Jim's advice as to what guides and cutters the average amateur routologist would be likely to have, so that I could produce another tutorial for beginners that was truly done the "American" way. Jim drew my attention to the fact that he couldn't find any metric guides on the net, so, not disbelieving him, but curious, I did a Google search with similar results, I did however find these two sites, the first offering a kit which contained both a 51/64" and a 1" as well as a 3/4", the last two of which I was hoping to base the next tutorial on, but the 51/64", how many of you have the means to measure in 64ths let alone calculate off-sets! I think that this unusual figure is close to 20mm and the 1 35/64" that I've seen several times is pretty close to 40mm, there we go, the wonderful 40mm guide that I'm always using. The second site actually sells a 40mm guide!
> To those members who are/have become bored with my constant pushing of metric measurements, tough titty as an infamous follower of some Maharishi or other once replied when being interviewed on TV!
> For members who can see the advantages of metric guides and cutters, make it known to retailers, distributors and even the actual manufacturers, or if you can't wait that long, perhaps you should have a go at OakPark, our sponsors who, I believe have equipment capable of making template guides! Have a good day my friends and fellow members.
> 
> ...


Harry, I hope you know I am still with all the way, and I come from long lines of "Americans"


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## Al Robins (Jul 13, 2009)

Harry.....wheres the new routing project with"L" plates? waiting...when I get it on the forum,I have to print it off and take it to a couple of others who dont have cyberspace! Regards........AL


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## Santé (Jan 14, 2010)

Hi
In Belgium, we are in metric but: sometimes the panels are 1.22 m x 2,44 m sometime 2,50 m 1.25 . the pipes are 3 / 8, 1/2or 3/4 ".Sheets of paper are A4. 
in computer all is mesured in bits per inch.
The metric system has not yet won!


If it can help:
The bolt heads are:
for M6: 10mm
for M8: 13mm (formerly 14mm)
for M10: 17mm 
for M14 22mm (I think?)

Cheers
Daniel


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

It's great to hear from you Tom, I do hope that your health is improving.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Allan, the project is all but finished, it starts with making the template for the square tray through to the finished tray using a 1" template guide and a 1/2" cutter for both the inside and outside. I used the guide and cutter in the belief that all newcomers will have them.
I must make it clear to everyone, that if I was restricted to no bigger than a 1" guide, I would stick to the router table like most Americans. Such a small size guide dramatically reduces what can be achieved with a plunge router. A couple of days should see the photos. ready for posting.


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## istracpsboss (Sep 14, 2008)

Yes, even here, our gas pipe is 1/2" and 3/4", as I found out whilst checking before importing some pipe clamps. It is cast into it, so there was no doubt.

Cheers

Peter


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Harry

Many Americans use and have the 1 1/2" guides ( that's a inside diam.of 1 1/2" almost the same as the 40mm OD type.) some call them a Oak Park size (type)

http://www.routerforums.com/project-plans-how/10818-bogydave.html

The plunge router can be setup the same way 


========



harrysin said:


> Allan, the project is all but finished, it starts with making the template for the square tray through to the finished tray using a 1" template guide and a 1/2" cutter for both the inside and outside. I used the guide and cutter in the belief that all newcomers will have them.
> I must make it clear to everyone, that if I was restricted to no bigger than a 1" guide, I would stick to the router table like most Americans. Such a small size guide dramatically reduces what can be achieved with a plunge router. A couple of days should see the photos. ready for posting.


----------



## pal (Feb 13, 2008)

jw2170 said:


> Harold,
> 
> The last plywood I purchased from Mr Ply & wood was made in Brazil. So they probably just make one size.(imperial)
> 
> ...


The last job I had before i retired was store man/purchasing officer for a cabinet/joinery shop. Laminex which now owns Formica & Formex and manufacture their MDF and HMR /melamine coated chipboard in Ipswich (just 1 of their factories in Australia) still manufacture it in 2440x1220 and sell it as 2400x1200 

Harold


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## magicdave (Apr 14, 2010)

Imperial measurement is not stupid it once was the only "standard." Because of a search for an easier system to use and base ten seemed to be the best and easiest to use. The problem as I see it has more to do with the making of for instance router bits of "equivalent" sizes in metric to very closely match the Imperial sized bits. Some are exactly the same some are only close. For me I rarely use templet guides for anything preferring instead using my own templets that work very well with my precision edge guide and a little Yankee ingenuity. I do make jigs that allow me to do a huge variety of tasks using only my routers and sanders.


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

Indy said:


> I don't know why the U.S. doesn't switch to the Metric system, they have been teaching the metric system to elementary school kids for over 35 years here. Some day, but I don't see it happening in the near future.


The US came one vote short in the Senate of developing a decimal measurement system during the Presidency of Thomas Jefferson, some years before the French invented the metric system (SI). The US was on the way to changing to the metric system in the 1980's (as well as developing alternatives to fossil fuels) but the President at the time stopped it. I fear I agree with Harry that the US will eventually become metric, but probably not in what is left of his (I hope very long) lifetime or my lifetime either.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

I think it will be some day also ,when Hell gets real cold..

===


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

harrysin said:


> It's great to hear from you Tom, I do hope that your health is improving.


I am still going Harry; I had a bad several months with what I thought were allergies but turned out to be allergies plus another problem. I expect to get out the router very soon and finally get back what i enjoy very much. However it would be much easier if my guides were metric and the wood sizes were metric. How are you doing? From your activity on the forum you seem to be doing well.


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## Santé (Jan 14, 2010)

istracpsboss said:


> Yes, even here, our gas pipe is 1/2" and 3/4", as I found out whilst checking before importing some pipe clamps. It is cast into it, so there was no doubt.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Peter


Hi Peter
Also the woods are in inches , 3/4", 4/4", 5/4" ....
I Suisse they are in mm but corresponding to inches: 19mm, 25mm, 32mm......

Daniel


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

bobj3 said:


> I think it will be some day also ,when Hell gets real cold..
> 
> ===


With volcano's spewing all that really hot stuff, I think it's logical to assume that deep down the temperatures will drop and that could well extend all the way down to hell. Hopefully one day you and I will meet in heaven and I'll point down to hell where everyone is shivering and I'll say to you "I told you so Bob"!


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

mftha said:


> I am still going Harry; I had a bad several months with what I thought were allergies but turned out to be allergies plus another problem. I expect to get out the router very soon and finally get back what i enjoy very much. However it would be much easier if my guides were metric and the wood sizes were metric. How are you doing? From your activity on the forum you seem to be doing well.


I'm glad to hear that you're improving Tom and look forward to seeing some overdue routing projects, in the meantime I'll be posting another tutorial this evening, aimed at beginners who would like to become proficient in the use of the plunge router.


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

istracpsboss said:


> Yes, even here, our gas pipe is 1/2" and 3/4", as I found out whilst checking before importing some pipe clamps. It is cast into it, so there was no doubt.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Peter


Even here in our metric country copper water pipes are still 1/2" and 3/4" OD,
to be sure I just went outside and checked a recently installed pipe.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

I'm now equipped to understand measurements in all forms. This morning a large padded bag arrived with an American postmark, in addition to some software there was a magnificent triple reading digital calliper. It was sent with the compliments of Bob (Bj) who conned me, after he suggested obtaining one and sending it to me I asked for the best way to pay him and he told me to use PayPal, which I happen to have an account with. I received an email saying it was on it's way so I answered telling him that he had forgotten to mention the total price to which he replied something like "ha, ha, I don't have a PayPal account!
This illustrates the sort of friendships that can, and do get formed on this forum. The members who for whatever reason decide to remain anonymous, have no idea of what they are potentially missing. I consider that I'm very fortunate in the number of genuine friendships that I have formed since becoming a member.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Harry
Thanks
You're Very Welcome Mate , it's only money ,you can't take it with you 
and like I said b/4 it's just a small pay back for the 40 mm guide you made for me Free of charge..pay it forward works... 


=======



harrysin said:


> I'm now equipped to understand measurements in all forms. This morning a large padded bag arrived with an American postmark, in addition to some software there was a magnificent triple reading digital calliper. It was sent with the compliments of Bob (Bj) who conned me, after he suggested obtaining one and sending it to me I asked for the best way to pay him and he told me to use PayPal, which I happen to have an account with. I received an email saying it was on it's way so I answered telling him that he had forgotten to mention the total price to which he replied something like "ha, ha, I don't have a PayPal account!
> This illustrates the sort of friendships that can, and do get formed on this forum. The members who for whatever reason decide to remain anonymous, have no idea of what they are potentially missing. I consider that I'm very fortunate in the number of genuine friendships that I have formed since becoming a member.


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

BJ didn't con you, Harry.. This was Pay Pal at its very finest!


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## magicdave (Apr 14, 2010)

*Metric vs Imperial*



reprosser said:


> When working with wood, do we really need to be accurate to a 64th ?


I make use of measuring devices which allow accuracy to 1/1000 of an inch. (my system is MicroFence based.) I rarely make cuts with so little tolerance but can if need be and by the way when I am building a guitar my cuts are much smaller than 1/64th. Usually I include 2 or 3 thousandths of inch for glue and or expansion. I do most of my larger projects outdoors under an canopy. My entire woodworking shop is completely portable too. The one thing I don't have is enough clamps. I think every woodworker complains about that but as for metric vs Imperial. I can use metric and imperial bits in most of my routers but I haven't made much use of guides so that part of this discussion is not in my realm of experience however I would use any of my multitude of measuring devices at my disposal.


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## Lemuzz (Jul 25, 2008)

bobj3 said:


> Hi Bob
> 
> I'm almost sure it is metric ,, the 8mm and the 5/16-18 is almost the same thread the norm, the real quick way to tell is the 12mm hex head size.. makes it metric . the thread pitch is just off just a little bit but in cast iron it will be a bit lose.(comes from the 2A fit..) do this for a quick test pull out a 5/16-18 nut and pull out a 8mm tap and run it in the nut, you can almost do it by hand without the need of a vise to hold the nut..
> 
> =====


8mm bolt - 13mm across the flats Not a good idea to mix metric and imperial threads if safety depends on this. Far better to measure the bolt diameter and then count the thread pitch using a thread guage


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## Michael 777 (Sep 20, 2009)

*51/64" Why?*

The only published use I have ever seen for this size bushing is for "Hinge Butt Routing Templates" for doors. The guys that made the bushings are the ones that made the templates " Porter Cable, Milwaulkee, etc." My guess is they wanted to allow a little slop for hinge Manufacturers tolerances ? The math does not bring up that magic # in my eyes?
As for metric I am all for it ! As of this post I have 10 fingers and ten toes. So I have 2 built in calculators ! To use both at the same time though would be a feet :sarcastic:


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## CarpenterMan123 (Jun 7, 2010)

*Accuracy*

I have a question for someone who advocates the metric system. I can see the benefit of the system; I got into it a little a few years ago, and many things about it are easier to calculate, but I sometimes try to be very accurate (not necessarily for wooden projects) and wonder how do you get any more accurate than a m/m, since for some things it is very large.


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

Steve,

There's 1,000 micrometers in a mm
1,000 nanometers in a micrometer
1,000 picometers in a nanometer
...the list goes on and on, but I'm not...


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## RJM (Apr 11, 2010)

Nevermind.


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

BigJimAK said:


> Steve,
> 
> There's 1,000 micrometers in a mm
> 1,000 nanometers in a micrometer
> ...


1 nanometer is roughly ten atomic diameters; DNA is 20 nanometers diameter. Magnification is required to see anything much smaller than 100 micrometers. A typical bacterial cell is 1 micrometer in diameter while a typical human cell is generally taken to be 10 to 20 micrometers diameter. 



> I have a question for someone who advocates the metric system. I can see the benefit of the system; I got into it a little a few years ago, and many things about it are easier to calculate, but I sometimes try to be very accurate (not necessarily for wooden projects) and wonder how do you get any more accurate than a m/m, since for some things it is very large.


In what kind of work, other than the cell and molecule work I mentioned, would 1 millimeter be considered large?


----------



## Santé (Jan 14, 2010)

Hi,
In metal working, they normaly use 0.01mm 

Cheers
Santé


----------



## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

Thank you Daniel. I am curious. How is 10 micrometers measured?


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

Santé said:


> Hi,
> In metal working, they normaly use 0.01mm
> 
> Cheers
> Santé



I could see this in FCT (Fits, Clearances and Tolerances), ( Mondays car as against Fridays car).

I doubt very much I would need to measure anything to this level.

100th of a mm would be VERY thin......LOL

James


----------



## Santé (Jan 14, 2010)

Hi Tom,

I do not know the english name of the 2 mesuring apparails
The first can mesurer at 1/10mm and the second at 1/100mm
I have a swiss friend who worked all his life at 1/1000mm but I do not know with what he measured; I will ask when I see him

Daniel


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## Cochese (Jan 12, 2010)

#1: That's a vernier caliper.
#2: Outside Micrometer. Or micrometer caliper.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

mftha said:


> Thank you Daniel. I am curious. How is 10 micrometers measured?


In my previous life as a specialist video repairer, I worked in +/- 3 microns on a regular basis replacing video had discs in Sony and Toshiba Beta VCR's. Any error greater than this would cause flag waving at the top of the picture when playing tapes not recorded on that machine and an even bigger error would cause total non-compatibility with other machines. Because few technicians had the facilities to replace these head disks, I did a lot of trade work. This is a shot of the eccentricity gauge that I used, as you can see, each graduation is 0.002mm.


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## Santé (Jan 14, 2010)

With this picture, you will understand


----------



## Santé (Jan 14, 2010)

So, you have all: vernier caliper 0.1mm

micrometer 0.01mm

and on Harry picture gauge 0.001mm


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## Frank Lee (Nov 29, 2008)

Excellent analogy ! ! ! Frank Lee, Kingman, Az.


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

harrysin said:


> In my previous life as a specialist video repairer, I worked in +/- 3 microns on a regular basis replacing video had discs in Sony and Toshiba Beta VCR's. Any error greater than this would cause flag waving at the top of the picture when playing tapes not recorded on that machine and an even bigger error would cause total non-compatibility with other machines. Because few technicians had the facilities to replace these head disks, I did a lot of trade work. This is a shot of the eccentricity gauge that I used, as you can see, each graduation is 0.002mm.





> Hi Tom,
> 
> I do not know the english name of the 2 mesuring apparails
> The first can mesurer at 1/10mm and the second at 1/100mm
> ...





> With this picture, you will understand


Thank you very much Harry and Daniel. Now I do remember that metal working can have very tight tolerances. I had no idea that the tolerances on the VCR's was so tight. I do know they easily went out of whack. DVD players seem to have similar tolerances.

I think in each of our cases our backgrounds have come through. When I get the Atomic Force Microscope that I want I will be able to measure at the atomic level. 

This is a very informative exchange, and I note that in all our cases were use metric measurements.

I do also sincerely no one has taken any offense to my question or thought I believed that only I was concerned about these very small dimensions.


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

Have I killed this thread?


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

mftha said:


> Have I killed this thread?



Tom,

I think the thread just ran it's course.

Got off topic a bit , but a good discussion none the less.

James


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Not at all Tom, it all reinforces the title of this thread. 

"DVD players seem to have similar tolerances." Actually not Tom because they have a heap of error correction built in. Back to video Beta head disks, Sanyo machines were like all VHS machines in which the accuracy of machining was such that the head disks and drums in the case of VHS were a very tight fit and often special tools were required to remove them if heating the disk/drum with a hair dryer and cooling the centre with a few squirts of Freon didn't work.Screws in every video recorder that I worked on were metric, usually Pozidrive rather than Philips headed.


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

harrysin said:


> "DVD players seem to have similar tolerances." Actually not Tom because they have a heap of error correction built in. Back to video Beta head disks, Sanyo machines were like all VHS machines in which the accuracy of machining was such that the head disks and drums in the case of VHS were a very tight fit and often special tools were required to remove them if heating the disk/drum with a hair dryer and cooling the centre with a few squirts of Freon didn't work.Screws in every video recorder that I worked on were metric, usually Pozidrive rather than Philips headed.


Harry, what I do know is that we had a stack of about 5 or 6 VCRs that ceased working, and I have two DVD recorder/players that no longer work. In the process of obtaining each of these I bought and returned 2 or 3 that did not work out of the box. In an earlier thread you criticized our throw away society, something with which I fully agree.

I had no idea of the difficulties of working with Beta and VHS VCRs.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Tom, because of the mechanics involved with VCR's, audio techs. like myself who had worked with reel/reel, compact cassettes and 8 track cartridge players took to VCR's like ducks to water whereas even brilliant TV techs. invariably lacked natural mechanical ability.
In spite of side tracking the original thread, METRIC is the way the world will go, so everybody start grasping it NOW!


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## Cochese (Jan 12, 2010)

*snickers*


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

harrysin said:


> Tom, because of the mechanics involved with VCR's, audio techs. like myself who had worked with reel/reel, compact cassettes and 8 track cartridge players took to VCR's like ducks to water whereas even brilliant TV techs. invariably lacked natural mechanical ability.
> In spite of side tracking the original thread, METRIC is the way the world will go, so everybody start grasping it NOW!


Harry, as you know, it is not possible for me to agree with more. This thread has well demonstrated your point.


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## RJM (Apr 11, 2010)

harrysin said:


> Tom, because of the mechanics involved with VCR's, audio techs. like myself who had worked with reel/reel, compact cassettes and 8 track cartridge players took to VCR's like ducks to water whereas even brilliant TV techs. invariably lacked natural mechanical ability.
> In spite of side tracking the original thread, METRIC is the way the world will go, so everybody start grasping it NOW!


Metric measure is already used worldwide - just not exclusively. I don't see the United States going completely metric anytime soon. It will be many generations before this happens. There's still just too much investment in US customary measure (which by the way, is not imperial measure). There are already lots of mixed unit terms and there may be even more by the time the US goes all metric. So, the world may never be entirely all metric. At least, for now, I won't need to buy any new tools - I mean to replace the ones I already have - I buy new tools all the time.


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## Santé (Jan 14, 2010)

Hi
Our webmaster has done a very small program (346kb) to convert inches to mm and mm to inches . It can be useful.

Here it is

Cheers
Dniel


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

Here's another good free program for converting. It doesn't support fractions like yours does, Daniel, but it's got lots of units! I use it regularly.

Convert for Windows | Josh Madison


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## Santé (Jan 14, 2010)

Oh, yes, very interesting ! I do not saw all units but it seems very usefull
Thanks


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## pal (Feb 13, 2008)

English is used as the international language while countries continue to use their own ,I believe metric will follow the same path

Harold


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

For a brilliant unit converter that converts just about anything to anything and it's FREE, do a google search for: "ESBUnitConverter"


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## Lemuzz (Jul 25, 2008)

RJM60 said:


> Metric measure is already used worldwide - just not exclusively. I don't see the United States going completely metric anytime soon. It will be many generations before this happens. There's still just too much investment in US customary measure (which by the way, is not imperial measure). There are already lots of mixed unit terms and there may be even more by the time the US goes all metric. So, the world may never be entirely all metric. At least, for now, I won't need to buy any new tools - I mean to replace the ones I already have - I buy new tools all the time.


Unfortunately it does take a long time to fully convert to metrics from imperial measurement. BUT it gets no easier as time goes on, in fact probably harder. Fortunately most machines in the metalwork industry are dual scale, either imperial or metric. Measuring tools are also dual. Measurement therefore need be just a number. The big problem is adjusting the brain to convert from one system to another. After more than 40 years working almost exclusively in metrics to close tolerances I can still "think" and work in imperial.


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## magicdave (Apr 14, 2010)

Generally speaking measurement systems have evolved over the centuries. Most of the ancient measurement systems have been replaced by different standards so it might be a good idea to either learn how to work around the two major systems in use today or wait until there is only one left. I remember when I had three sets of tools because I worked on any motorcycle that came into my shop. I had SAE, Metric, and Whitworth tools. Leave it to the Brits to come up with Witworth sized fasteners. Did they develop the Imperial system also? I use both Imperial and Metric measuring devices when I do my wood working but mostly stick to Imperial. I make my own templets so using standard guides is not a problem for me. I mostly build solid body electric guitars and speaker cabinets but also build one off furniture and cabinet work too.


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## waho6o9 (Apr 4, 2010)

bill kay said:


> Just a thought,
> 
> Skilled engineers, using fractions and inches, as well as a slide rule or two developed everything from modern medicine, farming, aviation and space exploration. These enlightened engineers, again using fractions and inches, even put a man on the moon.
> 
> Possibly your difficulty with tried and true measurement scales is actually a training deficiency.


Testify:blink:


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## Frank Lee (Nov 29, 2008)

*metrics*



harrysin said:


> especially where template guides and cutters are concerned. I asked Jim's advice as to what guides and cutters the average amateur routologist would be likely to have, so that I could produce another tutorial for beginners that was truly done the "American" way. Jim drew my attention to the fact that he couldn't find any metric guides on the net, so, not disbelieving him, but curious, I did a Google search with similar results, I did however find these two sites, the first offering a kit which contained both a 51/64" and a 1" as well as a 3/4", the last two of which I was hoping to base the next tutorial on, but the 51/64", how many of you have the means to measure in 64ths let alone calculate off-sets! I think that this unusual figure is close to 20mm and the 1 35/64" that I've seen several times is pretty close to 40mm, there we go, the wonderful 40mm guide that I'm always using. The second site actually sells a 40mm guide!
> To those members who are/have become bored with my constant pushing of metric measurements, tough titty as an infamous follower of some Maharishi or other once replied when being interviewed on TV!
> For members who can see the advantages of metric guides and cutters, make it known to retailers, distributors and even the actual manufacturers, or if you can't wait that long, perhaps you should have a go at OakPark, our sponsors who, I believe have equipment capable of making template guides! Have a good day my friends and fellow members.
> 
> ...


I hardly thinkthe measurement you call "imperial" is stupid. I realize there are different ways to measure things. I worked as an apprentice in atool & die shop as ayoung man, very interesting. Later in the construction industry and have some knowedge of both measurements, neither being "stupid". I have held licenses in two states, successfully. It amazes me to think of all the structures that I have worked on from being a worker and as a contractor useing the "imperial" system (stick built to highrises) and think of them built from a "stupid" syetem. I believe both systems are productive I don't proport to be a know-it-all but have some knowledge ofboth measures, learned over a period of 80 years. Again just my two cents. Frank Lee, Kingman, Az.:nono:


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## Frank Lee (Nov 29, 2008)

Hello Chris, It is hard to be as well versed as Harry


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Fellow members, whilst I sincerely believe that metric is far easier than imperial (I spent the first 31 years of my life in an imperial country) I personally use both types of measurements. The whole purpose of this thread was to brighten up what was becoming a rather dull forum, and judging by the number of views and posts, I think that what I set out to do has been achieved!


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## Frank Lee (Nov 29, 2008)

Why accept criticism from one area and not the other ? I guess this a question for Mark or other moderators ? Frank Lee, Kingman, AZ.


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## Frank Lee (Nov 29, 2008)

*error*

My comment made towards Mark or another moderator was MADE IN ERROR I would like to retract that statement, Sorry, Frank Lee Kingman, Az.:sad:


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## CanuckGal (Nov 26, 2008)

No problem Frank.


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## Santé (Jan 14, 2010)

Hi all
For those like me who have not grown up with the Imperial, it is very difficult to understand the value measurment.
Cheers
Daniel


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

For Harry

National Metric Week
U.S. Metric Association (USMA)

========


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

Darn, BJ.. Those pages all had their sizes in *metric*!


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

bobj3 said:


> For Harry
> 
> National Metric Week
> U.S. Metric Association (USMA)
> ...


I'm indebted to you Bob for that post,I hadn't realised that there was a long-standing movement towards metrication in the US, I'm pleased that there are learned people who realise that metric has merit.


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## Cochese (Jan 12, 2010)

I can hear the adenoids from here.


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## TRN_Diesel (Feb 24, 2009)

harrysin said:


> I don't doubt for a moment what you say but here we are not professional fine furniture makers, the majority of members are like me, amateur woodworkers. Many of course are professionals in other fields, like dentistry, electronics, electrical engineering, mechanical engineering etc. But, it doesn't alter the fact that in routing, template guides and cutters are are so much easier to calculate off-sets which is an important part of advanced routing. As a matter of interest, how do YOU measure a 51/64" template guide?


Harry to answer your question the answer is the same as how to Porcupine's mate?.............VERY CAREFULLY! :jester:

But all kidding aside it is very frustrating and I share your pain.

In Canada we have adopted the metric system. They started to teach it in the schools in the middle 80's if memory serves me correct. I was lucky because I had moved to Germany in 1977 and lived in Lahr, Germany when my Dad was stationed overseas. I was introduced to it and as a young kid I never blinked and said why are doing this. Having said that I still measure in inches though because I learnt to frame houses in inches given the rafter calculations are derived from rise run in inches and my framing square was based on this.

I guess you could call me a Heinz 57 when it comes to metric and imperial. I measure in litres only and measure distance in Km. AT the fire station I can do both kPa and psi and litre/min and gallons. Mind you it can get a little confusing at times and I get things back-wards at time. Usually when this occurs I go home and pray to my doG.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Dan, there are still things that I prefer in imperial, I can visualise psi but kpa is still meaningless, X miles per gallon I can visualise but X litres per 100Km is still not very meaningful. Years ago a car was rated in horse power now they talk of Kilowatts and Newton metres. But having made these admissions, for the kind of measurements we use in woodworking and metalworking, I wouldn't go back to imperial.


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

TRN_Diesel said:


> Harry to answer your question the answer is the same as how to Porcupine's mate?.............VERY CAREFULLY! :jester:
> 
> But all kidding aside it is very frustrating and I share your pain.
> 
> ...



Years ago confusion about liters and gallons came very close to causing a major airliner crash of a trans-Canadian flight. Only the skill of the pilot in landing a powerless large passenger airliner on an abandoned airfield prevented the disaster. The end result: the pilot was penalized for not being certain the aircraft had enough fuel. It had been filled with X liters instead of X gallons.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Your Welcome Harry

I just knew you could not be the only crack pot around.. 

======



harrysin said:


> I'm indebted to you Bob for that post,I hadn't realised that there was a long-standing movement towards metrication in the US, I'm pleased that there are learned people who realise that metric has merit.


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

bobj3 said:


> For Harry
> 
> National Metric Week
> U.S. Metric Association (USMA)
> ...


I did not know there was such an organization either. Thanks very much. It is good to know I am not the only rational person in the U.S. :lol::jester: 
Others who have posted on this thread actually already established this point.

My memories of dates differs somewhat from theirs, but I am going to assume they are correct.


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## RJM (Apr 11, 2010)

mftha said:


> Years ago confusion about liters and gallons came very close to causing a major airliner crash of a trans-Canadian flight. Only the skill of the pilot in landing a powerless large passenger airliner on an abandoned airfield prevented the disaster. The end result: the pilot was penalized for not being certain the aircraft had enough fuel. It had been filled with X liters instead of X gallons.


 
This interested me so I did a Google search and found the following story, which I believe is the one you are refering to:

Passengers sue airline after jet runs out of fuel - Europe, World - The Independent

It appears the incident evolved from a series of changes (new plane, new crew requirement, new manuals, NEW UNITS) with the key change being from imperial measure (lbm & gallons) to metric (Kg & liters). So I guess the moral of the story is that we shouldn't make changes ... 

Actually, I don't see how metric units make the following problem (read the story) any easier:

Metric:
22300(kg) / .803(kg/L) = 27771(L)
27771(L) - 7682(L) = 20089(L)

Imperial:
49613(lb) / 6.701(gal/lb) = 7337(gal)
7337(gal) - 2029(gal) = 5308(gal)


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## Hamlin (Dec 25, 2005)

Your "weight" ratio's will vary I'm afraid. As each "liquid" has a different weight per gal.


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

RJM60 said:


> This interested me so I did a Google search and found the following story, which I believe is the one you are refering to:
> 
> Passengers sue airline after jet runs out of fuel - Europe, World - The Independent


Robert thanks for the link. This incident is not the one I had in mind. The one I had in mind took place two or more decades earlier, and it took place over Canada. I suspect I read an abridged version, and I remember reading it in the house in which I grew up. That house was torn down about the time of the incident you found. It does demonstrate that even the best trained professionals can make mistakes when converting between systems.


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

RJM60 said:


> Actually, I don't see how metric units make the following problem (read the story) any easier:
> 
> Metric:
> 22300(kg) / .803(kg/L) = 27771(L)
> ...


Robert, you are correct. The arithmetic is of equal difficulty no matter what units are involved.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

bobj3 said:


> Your Welcome Harry
> 
> I just knew you could not be the only crack pot around..
> 
> ======


Gee, thanks for that Bob, it indicates that you still care for me!


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## GTVi (May 14, 2010)

RJM60 said:


> Actually, I don't see how metric units make the following problem (read the story) any easier:
> 
> Metric:
> 22300(kg) / .803(kg/L) = 27771(L)
> ...


This just illustrates the point that the system of units doesn't simply the mathematics of a caluclation, but where it does make a difference is the conversion of units within the system is easier in metric than imperial.

Also the other lesson to be learned from the above is to only stick to one system, and not use both. SOP (do we still write these?)

In Australia, an airplane must have enough fuel to take it to its destination and back again that way it will always have enough fuel for more than twice the flying time to the destination. In other words fill the tank up! lol


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## GTVi (May 14, 2010)

I was drawing a circle the other day, for my next project, and I thought of the following question...Why does a circle have 360 degrees, why not say 100 degrees? Anybody know how this came system came about? I'm sure it has nothing to do directly with imperial or metric measurements.


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

GTVi said:


> I was drawing a circle the other day, for my next project, and I thought of the following question...Why does a circle have 360 degrees, why not say 100 degrees? Anybody know how this came system came about? I'm sure it has nothing to do directly with imperial or metric measurements.


Blame the Babylonians.....


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## TRN_Diesel (Feb 24, 2009)

TwoSkies57 said:


> Blame the Babylonians.....


Go here for the answers:

Math Forum - Ask Dr. Math


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## Santé (Jan 14, 2010)

Hi
Thanks for this link Dan,

The 60 base is a good base but you must use 60 diferents signs that is too much.
Base 12 is better, because you can divide by 1, 2, 3,4, 6, 12 and you must use only 12 signs. 60 is a multiple of 12. and can be divided by many other numbers.
The base 12 is still used for many things
In my profession (tailor), the base 12 is used for buttons that are sold in 12 x 12 (144 = "une grosse" in French.)
the eggs were sold by 12 and many other things in the past.
For me, the base 12 would have been much better than the base 10

and for the time (day, hour, minut) this come from the Babylonians too, I suppose.
1 minut = 60 seconds, 1 hour = 60 minuts 1 day = 4 x 60 minuts
Correction : 1 day = 4 x 6 hours
Cheers
Daniel


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## GTVi (May 14, 2010)

Santé said:


> 1 day = 4 x 60 minuts


:wacko: Now I know why I getting nothing done ! lol

Seriously, though, you do bring up an interesting topic. I can't imagine working with time as a decimal system.


----------



## Santé (Jan 14, 2010)

GTVi said:


> :wacko: Now I know why I getting nothing done ! lol
> 
> Seriously, though, you do bring up an interesting topic. I can't imagine working with time as a decimal system.


Oh, yes, in Belgium, minutes are longer than other part in the world !:lol::lol::lol:


----------



## Ralph Barker (Dec 15, 2008)

GTVi said:


> :wacko: Now I know why I getting nothing done ! lol
> 
> Seriously, though, you do bring up an interesting topic. *I can't imagine working with time as a decimal system.*


That's coming. StarTrek, for example, replaced the Gregorian calendar with decimal stardates. 

Drop by at 17.75 hours for a beer, and we'll discuss it further.


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## Santé (Jan 14, 2010)

Hi
"I can't imagine working with time as a decimal system."

In the clothing industry, all posts are timed to one hundredth of a minute (centiminute) not in seconde.

Cheers
Daniel


----------



## xvimbi (Sep 29, 2009)

bill kay said:


> Just a thought,
> 
> Skilled engineers, using fractions and inches, as well as a slide rule or two developed everything from modern medicine, farming, aviation and space exploration. These enlightened engineers, again using fractions and inches, even put a man on the moon.
> 
> Possibly your difficulty with tried and true measurement scales is actually a training deficiency.


That reminds me of that NASA Mars lander that crashed, because someone mixed up metric with imperial units: CNN - NASA's metric confusion caused Mars orbiter loss - September 30, 1999

My spice rack also just crashed, another case of imperial confusion :sarcastic:


----------



## RJM (Apr 11, 2010)

Santé said:


> Hi
> "I can't imagine working with time as a decimal system."
> 
> In the clothing industry, all posts are timed to one hundredth of a minute (centiminute) not in seconde.
> ...


I know what you mean. It would be like trying to work with mm when I'm used to using inches. :sarcastic:

Also, what would we do about the 365.25 days in a year (or is it 365.24219, or 365.2425)? Then there's the 24 hours in a day (the Babylonians strike again?).

BTW, at work we must record time to the tenth of an hour (that's 6 minutes - reeks of Babylonianism).


----------



## RJM (Apr 11, 2010)

reprosser said:


> When working with wood, do we really need to be accurate to a 64th ?


Yes - especially with mitered corners.


----------



## Tommyt654 (Apr 5, 2009)

Is it just me or is this post turning into a waste of time and boring as all ****, Can we get past this and move on to more wood related sunjects please,Thanks,Tommyt


----------



## RJM (Apr 11, 2010)

Tommyt654 said:


> Is it just me or is this post turning into a waste of time and boring as all ****, Can we get past this and move on to more wood related sunjects please,Thanks,Tommyt


 
Don't read it.


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## RJM (Apr 11, 2010)

Santé said:


> Hi
> "I can't imagine working with time as a decimal system."
> 
> In the clothing industry, all posts are timed to one hundredth of a minute (centiminute) not in seconde.
> ...


"If it's Tuesday, this must be Belgium"


Just felt like posting that, it being Tuesday and all. :jester:


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## jfrowe1 (Nov 27, 2008)

Cocheseuga said:


> :laugh:
> 
> I will say, it's completely pointless to hound one company, or one set of things to be completely different than everything else. No point having one tool use metric and another use imperial.
> 
> ...


What's one third of 10mm? The metric system isn't as easy to use as many would have us believe. I agree with Cocheseuga, its not what system you use to measure with, it's the consistency of use. It's just as difficult to use the Metric system for some measurements as it is any other system. But for the record, we don't use the Imperial system here in the US. It's a modified system that has SOME similarities to the Imperial system. Nevertheless, again its not what you use, but the consistency of using it.


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## CanuckGal (Nov 26, 2008)

> What's one third of 10mm?


That would be 3.33mm
What's 1/3 of an inch?
That would be .333 inches.
Not so different.


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## Cassandra (Mar 15, 2006)

jfrowe1 said:


> What's one third of 10mm? The metric system isn't as easy to use as many would have us believe.


1.
How many cubic inches in a cubic foot?
How many cubic centimeters in a cubic meter?

2.
How many ounces in a ton? (Either a short or a long ton.)
How many grams in a tonne?

3.
How much does a gallon of water weigh?
How much does a liter of water weigh? 

Answers for metric: 
1. 1 million (100^3)
2. 1 million (1000 kilograms/tonne *1000 grams/kilogram)
3. 1 kilogram

For the record: I use either system, dependent on the needs of the task at hand.

Cassandra
Devil's Advocate


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi

For the record: I take a black marker and cover up the little Metric marks on my rulers 
What you don't have you can't use 


========


----------



## Cassandra (Mar 15, 2006)

bobj3 said:


> What you don't have you can't use ========



And what you can't use can't help you. :sad:


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## Cassandra (Mar 15, 2006)

In my engineering training and career, I have had to use a lot of different scales (engineer's scales, architect's scales, imperial, metric, US, etc.) Rather than look at each of these scales and abandon it, I rather keep it in mind, just in case I have need of it later. 

The scale doesn't matter. It's the use of the scale that matters. If I have a workpiece and I need, for example, to mark off a portion of some dimension, I might use imperial or I might use metric. For example, if I have a measurement of 13-9/16 inch and need to mark the midpoint, I am more likely to flip the scale, measure the distance in mm and divide in half. Then flip the scale back to imperial to continue, since I do most of my woodworking in imperial. Of course for something like halfing 3 inch, well, no need to use the metric scale.

Cassandra
D.A.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

HI

Very true , but my ruler has all the little marks I need on one side I don't need the other metric side  i.e. all my plans would call out cut 4 pcs. to 8 3/16"long ..or 4ea. to 4 51/64" .......

=======



Cassandra said:


> And what you can't use can't help you. :sad:


----------



## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

:jester: As for me, I prefer using Furlongs per Fortnight for velocity. Whether you're walking at 10,000 F/F or driving at 150,000 F/F, it sounds like you're haulin' a**!! :jester:


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## Bob N (Oct 12, 2004)

BigJimAK said:


> :jester: As for me, I prefer using Furlongs per Fortnight for velocity. Whether you're walking at 10,000 F/F or driving at 150,000 F/F, it sounds like you're haulin' a**!! :jester:


Now Jim.... that struck my funny bone :jester::lol::lol::lol::jester:


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## Cassandra (Mar 15, 2006)

:yes4:


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

bobj3 said:


> HI
> 
> Very true , but my ruler has all the little marks I need on one side I don't need the other metric side  i.e. all my plans would call out cut 4 pcs. to 8 3/16"long ..or 4ea. to 4 51/64" .......
> 
> =======


Bob, I clearly remember the time when you said similar things about skis, but look how age is mellowing you! I still live in hope that one day, before my time is up, metric will suddenly, like a clap of thunder, become loud and clear.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Harry


hahahahahahahahahaha LOL,, the big guy IN THE SKY said now you are METRIC HAHAHAHAHAHAHA LOL , as I hit the floor hahahahahahaha..

========



harrysin said:


> Bob, I clearly remember the time when you said similar things about skis, but look how age is mellowing you! I still live in hope that one day, before my time is up, metric will suddenly, like a clap of thunder, become loud and clear.


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## magicdave (Apr 14, 2010)

I understand Harry's frustration. I have to admit that I have rarely used templet guides so my experience doesn't lend itself well to giving advice but 51/64th is 20.24mm. I guess finding the properly sized bit is the problem. I will admit that even when using metric bit I measure in inches. My digital calipers will do metric but I have been using the inch systems all of my life so changing at this stage of the game isn't likely. I will admit that my router system is available in both metric and inches but I opted for the inch measuring micrometer when I purchased my router accessories. 
I make my cut, measure the cut and adjust my fence accordingly. 2 or 3 thousandths of an inch can make a big difference when leaving space for glue. I suppose that if I used templets I could offer better advice but most of the router work I do relies of a precision fence system.


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## jfrowe1 (Nov 27, 2008)

CanuckGal said:


> That would be 3.33mm
> What's 1/3 of an inch?
> That would be .333 inches.
> Not so different.


BINGO...my point exactly.


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## Jclaude (Oct 19, 2007)

Hi to everyone!
Originally Posted by CanuckGal View Post
That would be 3.33mm
What's 1/3 of an inch?
That would be .333 inches.
Not so different.
Let me understand how you express .333 inch using /64th, /32th, /16th...., it may be funny!
By saying 0333 inch you are implicitly using decimal system, which is the base of metric system, isn't it?

Jean Claude


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## Ralph Barker (Dec 15, 2008)

Jclaude said:


> Hi to everyone!
> Originally Posted by CanuckGal View Post
> That would be 3.33mm
> What's 1/3 of an inch?
> ...


That would be 21.33/64, 10.667/32, 5.33/16. 

Threes almost always get you in trouble. :wacko:


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## istracpsboss (Sep 14, 2008)

That was what the wife said.


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## magicdave (Apr 14, 2010)

Jclaude said:


> Hi to everyone!
> Originally Posted by CanuckGal View Post
> That would be 3.33mm
> What's 1/3 of an inch?
> ...


Metric is measured in millimeters NOT inches. Using thousandths of INCHES is NOT metric. .333 in 64th measures as a decimal fraction. The arithmetic is simple but you missed my point. Just because I use precision measuring accessories that adjust my depth of cut and my fence adjustment in thousandths of an INCH. Inches are NOT metric millimeters and centimeters are metric. I find those that made the comment that my adjustments to allow for glue space in thousandths of an INCH is metric doesn't understand the metric system. .002" is NOT metric it is INCH measurement which is NOT metric.


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## CanuckGal (Nov 26, 2008)

Thanks Dave


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## RJM (Apr 11, 2010)

Cassandra said:


> 1.
> How many cubic inches in a cubic foot?
> How many cubic centimeters in a cubic meter?
> 
> ...


 
Off the top of my head ... 

Answers in English Engineering units
1. 1728 (12^3)
2. 16*2000 = 32000
3. About 8 lbs - okay I'm off - actually 8.345404 lb


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## RJM (Apr 11, 2010)

Cassandra said:


> ... For example, if I have a measurement of 13-9/16 inch and need to mark the midpoint, I am more likely to flip the scale, measure the distance in mm and divide in half.
> 
> Cassandra
> D.A.


 
This is really simple - 6-1/2 and 9/32 more, or 1/32 less than 6-13/16. The math is simple if you do it often enough.


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## Jclaude (Oct 19, 2007)

magicdave said:


> Metric is measured in millimeters NOT inches. Using thousandths of INCHES is NOT metric. .333 in 64th measures as a decimal fraction. The arithmetic is simple but you missed my point. Just because I use precision measuring accessories that adjust my depth of cut and my fence adjustment in thousandths of an INCH. Inches are NOT metric millimeters and centimeters are metric. I find those that made the comment that my adjustments to allow for glue space in thousandths of an INCH is metric doesn't understand the metric system. .002" is NOT metric it is INCH measurement which is NOT metric.


Hi Dave, you are missing something here, "Metric" as you call it, is a restriction, the correct word should be "Decimal" .
Metric is decimal system applied to length, with a physical meaning base value - metre- (ten millionth of the quarter of the earth meridian), an official reference exists in Paris.
On the other side the Inch has no scientific value, and has varied in size during the history.
Just some points of our past.


Jean Claude


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## Lemuzz (Jul 25, 2008)

jfrowe1 said:


> What's one third of 10mm? The metric system isn't as easy to use as many would have us believe. I agree with Cocheseuga, its not what system you use to measure with, it's the consistency of use. It's just as difficult to use the Metric system for some measurements as it is any other system. But for the record, we don't use the Imperial system here in the US. It's a modified system that has SOME similarities to the Imperial system. Nevertheless, again its not what you use, but the consistency of using it.


Easy 3.33333333333 repeating. Measurement is only a number. It doesn't matter which system is used. Accuracy can be achieved with either. The fact is it is far easier to work with metrics than imperial It is almost impossible to work with both systems on the same job and achieve accuracy. Many posting here don't want to change, but future generations undoubtedly will be using metric measurements because of their simplicity and universal acceptance.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Keep pushing for metric Harry. The USA is the only country left that uses Imperial measure. I've been in Canada about 35 years now and Canada converted about 30 years ago although we are still stuck using lots of Imperial sized merchandise. I grew up in Alabama and went to three universities there. I only started learning metric when I started studying physics. As far as I am concerned Imperial can't die fast enough. Imperial measure is the most idiotic idea ever conceived. Everything in metric is a multiple of 10, much easier to calculate than 16ths, 32nds, 64ths, 12" to the foot, 3' to the yard, and 5280' to the mile. I've been on both sides and there is no defending Imperial.


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

*even B&R agree?????*

I was just watching an early episode of TRW (301/302).

Maybe Mark can tell us when that was recorded....

Anyway, Bob mentioned the fact that even back then, plywood was sold in the US in 4 X 8 sheets but was 19mm thick.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

There was a time when I thought that I was a single voice in a wilderness but I'm becoming heartened now that I have quite a few allies. We were all born with the metric system, ten fingers and ten toes! Just imagine 12 fingers and three feet.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

HI Harry

" single voice "
They say the ones with the Gold make the rules, I'm sure if we (the States) said we want you to switch over to the Imperial way you would,if we said if you don't we will not give you any more money or sale you any food..

================



harrysin said:


> There was a time when I thought that I was a single voice in a wilderness but I'm becoming heartened now that I have quite a few allies. We were all born with the metric system, ten fingers and ten toes! Just imagine 12 fingers and three feet.


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## del schisler (Feb 2, 2006)

not so 10 fingers and 10 toes. harry count backward's on your fingers like 10 9 8 7 6 and 5 more fingers are 11 ???? why is that have a good holliday


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

bobj3 said:


> HI Harry
> 
> " single voice "
> They say the ones with the Gold make the rules, I'm sure if we (the States) said we want you to switch over to the Imperial way you would,if we said if you don't we will not give you any more money or sale you any food..
> ...


You're not completely wrong Bob, there is a saying here "what America does today, Australia will be doing tomorrow"
However, America NEEDS what WE export:

*Australian Exports to U.S.*

Of the $8.2 billion in American imports from Australia in 2006, the following product categories had the highest values.


Meat products including poultry …US$1.3 billion (15.7% of Australian to U.S. exports, up 2.8% from 2005)
Wine & related products … $768 million (9.4%, up 0.2%)
Semi-finished iron & steel mill products … $454.5 million (5.5%, up 96.5%)
Items returned to U.S. then reimported … $392.7 million (4.8%, down 4.8%)
Nickel … $365.9 million (4.5%, up 92.7%)
Other scientific, medical & hospital equipment … $339.2 million (4.1%, up 26.1%)
Industrial inorganic chemicals … $336.3 million (4.1%, up 21.1%)
Medicinal, dental & pharmaceutical preparations … $305.3 million (3.7%, up 25.1%)
Non-steel finished metal shapes … $276.7 million (3.4%, up 871.3%)
New & used passenger cars … $242.8 million (3%, down 12.7).


Read more at Suite101: Top Australian Exports & Imports: Most Popular Products Traded Between Australia & America Top Australian Exports & Imports: Most Popular Products Traded Between Australia & America​


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

del schisler said:


> not so 10 fingers and 10 toes. harry count backward's on your fingers like 10 9 8 7 6 and 5 more fingers are 11 ???? why is that have a good holliday


Del.,I reckon that it will take all of the Christmas break to figure that one out.


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## magicdave (Apr 14, 2010)

When I purchase rough unfinished lumber, if I want full dimension 4/4 I buy 5/4. There are some wood providers that sell full sized planed lumber but in the case of purchasing some 4/4 stock plan on paying for 5/4 stock and planing charges. Personally when it is possible I always buy rough lumber because I had a friend that owned a custom furniture business and he had a really impressive collection of wood milling equipment. I took my stock to his shop and surfaced it myself. I realize that's not a practical solution but since he went out of business in 2006 when his business took more of a nose dive than he could endure I was forced to look elsewhere. Luckily Woodhaven came out with their line of planing sleds and I bought the largest one. With the proper bit I can plane a piece of wood so smooth that you would think I ran it through a drum sander with 400 grit paper installed. Incidentally, I have clamped this excellent tool to a section of a tree with the bark still on it and surfaced the both cut ends perfectly flat and parallel. I then clamped my home made bowl cutting jig to the short "log" and made various sized wooden bowls that look like I did them on a lathe. I love routers.


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## magicdave (Apr 14, 2010)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> Keep pushing for metric Harry. The USA is the only country left that uses Imperial measure. I've been in Canada about 35 years now and Canada converted about 30 years ago although we are still stuck using lots of Imperial sized merchandise. I grew up in Alabama and went to three universities there. I only started learning metric when I started studying physics. As far as I am concerned Imperial can't die fast enough. Imperial measure is the most idiotic idea ever conceived. Everything in metric is a multiple of 10, much easier to calculate than 16ths, 32nds, 64ths, 12" to the foot, 3' to the yard, and 5280' to the mile. I've been on both sides and there is no defending Imperial.


I had a thought regarding this Imperial/Metric discussion. I was remembering a time right after high school when I got a job working in a precision machine shop (metal) making parts for IBM. Almost all of our specs held a tolerance of +/- .0002". How do you do extremely small measurements using the metric system? What are very tiny measurements in the metric system? Not that such tiny measurements are relevant in wood working but just for general knowledge.


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## jschaben (Jun 21, 2009)

magicdave said:


> I had a thought regarding this Imperial/Metric discussion. I was remembering a time right after high school when I got a job working in a precision machine shop (metal) making parts for IBM. Almost all of our specs held a tolerance of +/- .0002". How do you do extremely small measurements using the metric system? What are very tiny measurements in the metric system? Not that such tiny measurements are relevant in wood working but just for general knowledge.


Hi Dave - Actually this discussion hasn't been so much about metric vs. imperial measurement systems as it has been about decimal vs. fractional notation. Fractional notation pretty well falls apart at 1/128 as the next most common fraction you may see is 1/250th not 1/256th. At that point you are usually working in decimal notation no matter what the base system is. JMHO
For metric small measurements you get into microns, nanomicrons etc.


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## Cassandra (Mar 15, 2006)

magicdave said:


> I had a thought regarding this Imperial/Metric discussion. I was remembering a time right after high school when I got a job working in a precision machine shop (metal) making parts for IBM. Almost all of our specs held a tolerance of +/- .0002". How do you do extremely small measurements using the metric system? What are very tiny measurements in the metric system? Not that such tiny measurements are relevant in wood working but just for general knowledge.


0.0002" = 5.08 um (micrometer)


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Cassandra said:


> 0.0002" = 5.08 um (micrometer)


You are of course quite right, microns, in the days when I replaced video head discs on Sony and Toshiba beta VCR's, they had to be set within +/- 2 or 3 microns to ensure compatibility. Here is a shot of my eccentricity gauge.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

*If this was a war you already lost*



bobj3 said:


> HI Harry
> 
> " single voice "
> They say the ones with the Gold make the rules, I'm sure if we (the States) said we want you to switch over to the Imperial way you would,if we said if you don't we will not give you any more money or sale you any food..
> ...


I just checked some of the US made products in my house. My Gilette shaving cream offers metric and Imperial measure. Febreeze lists only metric measure. It seems that US companies are quite happy to use metric measure. Canada and the US both looked at going metric at about the same time. I can't remember which president was in power at the time, maybe Clinton, but he decided that it was going to be too costly to recalibrate all the scales, gas pumps, etc. Our government realized that it was inevitable and that waiting would only make it more costly in the future. At the moment, about 5.7 billion people are on the metric system. 300 million are still using Imperial. If this was a war, you lost it about 30 years ago.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

I doubt that even Bj has an answer to that!


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Harry

I could but Mark said put a sock in it, sit down ,you are rocking the boat.. 



=====



harrysin said:


> I doubt that even Bj has an answer to that!


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

"At the moment, about 5.7 billion people are on the metric system. 300 million are still using Imperial. If this was a war, you lost it about 30 years ago."

This is the part that I referred to Bob, 5.7 BILLION using metric and only a paltry 300 MILLION using Imperial. It reminds me of when I was in the RAF, I really thought that it was me in step and all the other airmen out of step!


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

hahahahahahahahahahaha LOL LOL

=======



harrysin said:


> "At the moment, about 5.7 billion people are on the metric system. 300 million are still using Imperial. If this was a war, you lost it about 30 years ago."
> 
> This is the part that I referred to Bob, 5.7 BILLION using metric and only a paltry 300 MILLION using Imperial. It reminds me of when I was in the RAF, I really thought that it was me in step and all the other airmen out of step!


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## terryvk6pq (Apr 3, 2009)

Someone said earlier on in this disscussion that 1/64th of an inch in woodwork made very little difference. Well I have to say that in some situations, like making box joints or dovetails, I'm using the thickness of a sheet of paper, about 1/10th of a millimetre or if you are into imperial then it would be .004inches as a spacer to make my joints fit perfect.
I was brought up on imperial but now use metric most of the time. All my rules, calipers etc are in both and I still use both for measuring in general but stick to metric for the final sizing.
I can still "see" with my eye 1/16th or 1/18 of an inch but have to check with a rule when switching to metric as my "eye" does not "see" say 7mm. 
Bloody confusing!!!!!!!!!!!
I can still judge a 1 inch gap or mark to within a couple of mm but find it more difficult to judge a 25mm gap or mark to within a 1/16 of an inch??!!??!!??!!
Like I said........Bloody Confusing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Terry vk6pq


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

As soon as I get my voice back Terry, I'll be round for a demo of how you make such accurate box joints which I have of course had the pleasure of seeing on several of your fine boxes. I installed a new MODEM this afternoon so that both desktops are wired and this little laptop that I'm currently usling is wireless. well I couldn't get it right so Marlene did the speaking to the ISP guy and the phone was on speaker so that I could follow the instructions, it was like Fred Carnos circus!


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## Al Robins (Jul 13, 2009)

Whats all this Harry?....You lost your voice?.....That would be like a dog losing its tail.....HAHA..............AL


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

Al Robins said:


> Whats all this Harry?....You lost your voice?.....That would be like a dog losing its tail.....HAHA..............AL


lmao...

Say Harry... one of your "top ten" export items is...

Non-steel finished metal shapes … $276.7 million (3.4%, up 871.3%) 

What is the primary non-steel finished metal export from Australia? Aluminum?


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Al Robins said:


> Whats all this Harry?....You lost your voice?.....That would be like a dog losing its tail.....HAHA..............AL


Don't rub it in Al.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

BigJimAK said:


> lmao...
> 
> Say Harry... one of your "top ten" export items is...
> 
> ...


You've got me there Jim, it might just as well be in Chinese for all the sense it makes!


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## Thrifty Tool Guy (Aug 23, 2007)

bill kay said:


> Just a thought,
> 
> Skilled engineers, using fractions and inches, as well as a slide rule or two developed everything from modern medicine, farming, aviation and space exploration. These enlightened engineers, again using fractions and inches, even put a man on the moon.
> 
> Possibly your difficulty with tried and true measurement scales is actually a training deficiency.


I'm a a bit late to this thread, but you are assuming that all engineering of any note was done in the US or the Commonwealth. As case in point, the US space program was/is still based on the fundamental work of the German V-2 rocket (Werner von Braun). It's an ugly fact, but true.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

I well remember the sound of the V1 and V2 "doodlebugs", their distinctive sound and when it stopped was the time to put hands over ears and wait for the explosion.


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## jschaben (Jun 21, 2009)

harrysin said:


> I well remember the sound of the V1 and V2 "doodlebugs", their distinctive sound and when it stopped was the time to put hands over ears and wait for the explosion.


Hi Harry - correct me if I'm wrong but seems as though the explosion came first with the V2:bad:


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

I was only about eight at the time Peter and that's my recollection.


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## Cassandra (Mar 15, 2006)

jschaben said:


> Hi Harry - correct me if I'm wrong but seems as though the explosion came first with the V2:bad:


Hi John:

You're quite right. As the V2 would descend at supersonic speeds, it would arrive before you heard it.

Cassandra


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Harry


======


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Most where the (V1) buzz bombs ,that they could shoot down with the P38 ( I worked with a guy that did that many times and would go on and on and on about doing just that) ,the V2 was late in the war,,buzz bomb, would run out of gas and than just drop..

=====


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## Ralph Barker (Dec 15, 2008)

Getting back to the metric vs. Imperial measurement topic, I learned something new today by watching Roy Underhill. The Danish inch (apparently still used in woodworking there) is slightly longer than the Imperial inch. The Danish inch is 1.0295 inches long; or 26.15mm, instead of 25.4mm. 

By Googling "Danish Inch" I also found this handy online converter:

Online converter

Notable because it also includes Angstroms, Parsecs, and lightyears for those who like unusually small or large guide bushings. A 40mm bushing, for example is 400,000,000 Angstroms in diameter, while 1 Parsec is 30,856,770,000,000,000,000mm. Who would have ever guessed?


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

bobj3 said:


> Hi Harry
> 
> Do you have a Metric slide ruler ?
> 
> ...


Why would I need/want a slide rule of any kind Bob when a very good friend of mine in America sent me a triple reading digital calliper for conversions and I have electronic calculators coming out of my ears!


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## edhills (Dec 14, 2009)

Hey Gene I have a greenie,,, actually I have 2 of em...


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Harry

I pull one out of the tool box today and I almost forget how to use it, I used it all the time back in the days b/4 all the high end tools..


====


harrysin said:


> Why would I need/want a slide rule of any kind Bob when a very good friend of mine in America sent me a triple reading digital calliper for conversions and I have electronic calculators coming out of my ears!


----------



## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

*Slide rules are logarhythmic*



bobj3 said:


> Hi Harry
> 
> Do you have a Metric slide ruler ?
> 
> ...


Bob,
If I remember correctly, slide rule scales are based on log rhythms and are neither Imperial or metric ( i.e. 10 x an exponent). Since you don't seem to want to let this die, here is a history of the two systems. 
The Imperial system is just that. Measurements based on the king. The length of his foot was the foot. The distance from the center of his breastbone to his outstretched fingers was a yard. The distance between the knuckles on one of his digits (I think the index finger) was an inch. And so on and so on. The problem with that was that when that king died and his successor took power, all the measurements changed.
The French Royal Academy in the 1790s decided enough of this baloney. A system was needed that never changed. The meter was the unit of length and was 
1/10,000,000 of the distance between the equator and the poles. 1/100 of a meter was the centimeter. A kilogram is the mass of a liter (1000 cubic centimeters) of pure water. Since the 1790s we discovered that the earth is shrinking. Therfore the length of a meter is a specific number of wavelengths of light produced from krypton 86 gas now. This is reproducible anywhere in the known universe. Once you do that, you can reproduce any of the other metric measures anywhere in the known universe since water is the same everywhere. 
The US keeps a platinum iridium bar kept at very precise temperture in a secret vault somewhere in or near Washington, DC with a set of scratches on it that determines the length of measure for the US Imperial system. Should something ever happen to it chaos could follow, unless there is a backup that they haven't let anyone know about. At least that is what I was taught when I went through the US school system in the 50s, 60s, and early 70s.
When my children were young, I said something to them about the length of something in inches. They asked me "What is an inch". There is one more generation behind me that was taught in Imperial. When that one is gone, Imperial will become a distant memory just like cubits from the Christian bible.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

ok

==========


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

bobj3 said:


> Hi Harry
> 
> I pull one out of the tool box today and I almost forget how to use it, I used it all the time back in the days b/4 all the high end tools..
> 
> ...


I'm impressed Bob that there was a time when you could use one, in spite of my late older brother never seeming to go anywhere without his, I never had the slightest need or interest in a slide rule.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Is that OK "ok now I understand" or could it be "ok, I've had enough of this subject"?

An interesting explanation Charles.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

"ok, I've had enough of this subject"



=======


----------



## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

bobj3 said:


> "ok, I've had enough of this subject"
> 
> 
> 
> =======



love - 30.........LOL


I love the restraint, BJ....:laugh::laugh::laugh:


----------



## magicdave (Apr 14, 2010)

jschaben said:


> Hi Dave - Actually this discussion hasn't been so much about metric vs. imperial measurement systems as it has been about decimal vs. fractional notation. Fractional notation pretty well falls apart at 1/128 as the next most common fraction you may see is 1/250th not 1/256th. At that point you are usually working in decimal notation no matter what the base system is. JMHO
> For metric small measurements you get into microns, nanomicrons etc.


I have to agree with you on that point. My "go to" router is a Bosch Colt mounted in a Micro Fence Plunge Base that adjusts in thousandths of an inch as does my Micro Fence. Belittling someone for using Imperial measurement instead of metric seems strange to me. I use metric bits as well as Imperial measured bits but all of my measuring is done in inches. I have rarely templets so the entire discussion about how to get the correctly sized insert was not something that I was much help with solving. I try to avoid using accessories that make my work look like it was done with a machine. I do my dovetails with the router I just mentioned. I will be buying a new small router soon because Porter-Cable just came out with a new small light weight model and as soon as Rich has specs to produce the correct mounting ring for my plunge base my Bosch will become a free hand carving tool. 
Peace


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## KUMZUM (Jun 19, 2010)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> I just checked some of the US made products in my house. My Gilette shaving cream offers metric and Imperial measure. Febreeze lists only metric measure. It seems that US companies are quite happy to use metric measure. Canada and the US both looked at going metric at about the same time. I can't remember which president was in power at the time, maybe Clinton, but he decided that it was going to be too costly to recalibrate all the scales, gas pumps, etc. Our government realized that it was inevitable and that waiting would only make it more costly in the future. At the moment, about 5.7 billion people are on the metric system. 300 million are still using Imperial. *If this was a war, you lost it about 30 years ago*.


This isn't war. It's woodworking. After reading this thread, all I can say is jeepers creepers. My dad would say, "if God wanted us to use the metric system, He would have given us ten fingers and ten toes" I was taught the metric from a young age, (dad thought it important). But come now fellas, this metric vs imperial is bordering on pontification. I use both, because I have tools for both.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

KUMZUM said:


> This isn't war. It's woodworking. After reading this thread, all I can say is jeepers creepers. My dad would say, "if God wanted us to use the metric system, He would have given us ten fingers and ten toes" I was taught the metric from a young age, (dad thought it important). But come now fellas, this metric vs imperial is bordering on pontification. I use both, because I have tools for both.


Great profile you have there N/A.


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## Ralph Barker (Dec 15, 2008)

KUMZUM said:


> This isn't war. It's woodworking. After reading this thread, all I can say is jeepers creepers. My dad would say, "if God wanted us to use the metric system, He would have given us ten fingers and ten toes" I was taught the metric from a young age, (dad thought it important). But come now fellas, this metric vs imperial is bordering on pontification. I use both, because I have tools for both.


We're really not "warring". But, if the U.S. (completely) converted to metric, we couldn't tease Harry about his 200mm guide bushings.


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## KUMZUM (Jun 19, 2010)

harrysin said:


> Great profile you have there N/A.


Thanks for noticing. My wife thinks so also!

Merry Christmas


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## Mike Wingate (Apr 26, 2009)

Over here in England, I was brought up with Imperial measurement. I still use both inches and mm. As a woodwork, metalwork and technichal drawing teacher in the late 60's, everything was in inches. Drawing in mm's was no problem. As a guesstimate, 300mm was a foot, 25mm an inch. My chisels are all imperial, so 6mm mortises were near enough to 1/4". All my CAD and CAM are now in metric. I have metric and imperial router bits and guide bushes (most of my guide bushes are metric). What we do not find in schools unless you come across an old engineer is 1000ths of an inch. This works well, esp for guide bush calculations. Having a variety of measurements can be confusing, but can be put to your advantage. Flexibility is the name of the game.


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## magicdave (Apr 14, 2010)

Yesterday I ran across some metric bit that were "fractional sizes for instance I happened to notice that the straight bit I was holding had an 8mm shaft but the cutter was 9.1mm. Now there is a size that is a little baffling that a bit would be such an odd size but it was new and clearly marked 9.1mm. Weird huh?


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

magicdave said:


> Yesterday I ran across some metric bit that were "fractional sizes for instance I happened to notice that the straight bit I was holding had an 8mm shaft but the cutter was 9.1mm. Now there is a size that is a little baffling that a bit would be such an odd size but it was new and clearly marked 9.1mm. Weird huh?


I'm sure that the imperial equivalent, 23/64" must be a very popular size in America!


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## Cassandra (Mar 15, 2006)

harrysin said:


> I'm sure that the imperial equivalent, 23/64" must be a very popular size in America!


Might be suitable for making dados for receiving 3/8" plywood?

Cassandra


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

Cassandra said:


> Might be suitable for making dados for receiving 3/8" plywood?
> 
> Cassandra


Blimey, Cassandra.. I think you've *got* it!


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## KUMZUM (Jun 19, 2010)

I've always loved the "metric ton".


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

I am amazed that this thread is still running! For those who have not noticed (and who care), I'M BAAAAAACK!!!



Cherryville Chuck said:


> I just checked some of the US made products in my house. My Gilette shaving cream offers metric and Imperial measure. Febreeze lists only metric measure. It seems that US companies are quite happy to use metric measure. Canada and the US both looked at going metric at about the same time. I can't remember which president was in power at the time, maybe Clinton, but he decided that it was going to be too costly to recalibrate all the scales, gas pumps, etc. Our government realized that it was inevitable and that waiting would only make it more costly in the future. At the moment, about 5.7 billion people are on the metric system. 300 million are still using Imperial. If this was a war, you lost it about 30 years ago.


What measurement system do the remaining 900 million people use? (or are they too young to use any measurements beyond their stomachs?)

It was President Reagan who stopped the adoption of the metric system for general use in the U. S. Before the French adopted the metric system, President Thomas Jefferson had proposed the development of a decimal system of measurements. It failed in the U. S. Senate by 1 vote!

When I first joined the Router Forums my first post (possibly under the name talton) asked why, if the Router Workshop originated in Canada, were all the measurements, bit sizes, etc. in the Imperial system.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Welcome to the RWS forum


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Great to see you Back Tom, I hope that your health will allow a long stay this time.


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## Ralph Barker (Dec 15, 2008)

mftha said:


> I am amazed that this thread is still running! . . .
> 
> When I first joined the Router Forums my first post (possibly under the name talton) asked why, if the Router Workshop originated in Canada, were all the measurements, bit sizes, etc. in the Imperial system.


I'm going on record here to predict that this thread will end 100 metric years after the U.S. finally adopts the metric system. 

On the second point, I'm guessing it was based on the U.S. market being larger. 

BTW, I have no idea what a "metric year" is, but it sounds great. 

Welcome back, Tom.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

America appears to be doing the same as Australia, closing businesses and having the manufacturing done offshore in places like China, Korea, Malaysia etc, and these countries appear to have been using metric for a very long time so no doubt this will influence what industry remains.


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

harrysin said:


> Great to see you Back Tom, I hope that your health will allow a long stay this time.


Thank you very much Harry. I certainly hope I can stay for some long time measured in decades! 

I have had my long-held view that the U. S. really does need to adopt the metric system greatly reinforced.


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

Ralph Barker said:


> I'm going on record here to predict that this thread will end 100 metric years after the U.S. finally adopts the metric system.
> 
> On the second point, I'm guessing it was based on the U.S. market being larger.
> 
> ...


Thanks very much Ralph. 

If your explanation about the U.S. market being larger, I would think that in Canada the two systems would coexsist side by side in Router work, but you may well be right.

A metric year; we have that inconvenient truth that the earth orbits around the sun in some time that does not match the time it takes for the earth to rotate on its axis in any number that has no decimal points. I do not know what a metric year would be, but a metric day is a possibility. If any civilization anywhere in the world now or ever used base 10 time units for the length of a day I do not know of it.


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

bobj3 said:


> Welcome to the RWS forum


Are you talking to me Bob? It is good to be back. Somehow I do not see you getting to 20 kiloposts by the end of the year! Maybe in a hectoday. Or was 1.8 kiloposts your goal? 20 kiloposts in a hectoday would still require approximately 240 posts per day, or 10 per hour or one every 6 minutes, leaving no time for anything else. No more projects from you until April? A real crisis for the Router Forums!

I remain in awe of what you do when you are not on the Router Forum. Is there anything you do not have in your workshop? Is there anything you cannot make, and show us?


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

mftha said:


> It was President Reagan who stopped the adoption of the metric system for general use in the U. S. Before the French adopted the metric system, President Thomas Jefferson had proposed the development of a decimal system of measurements. It failed in the U. S. Senate by 1 vote!


I got some things wrong here. Jefferson proposed a decimal system of measurements for the U. S. in 1790, the same year France began to develop the metric system. Jefferson of course did not become President until 1805, and there was no senate in 1790. I can no longer locate the source for what and when Jefferson did. While President Reagan stopped theh general conversion to the metric system, he did not block regulations that require that each U. S. federal agency to be metric by the end of 1992. In 1866 use of the metric system was made legal in the U. S. and it was made illegal to refuse commerce based on metric measurements! In 1893 the U. S. yard, pound, etc. have been defined in metric equivalents.


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

KUMZUM said:


> I've always loved the "metric ton".


I agree. Why not the megagram?


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

mftha said:


> I agree. Why not the megagram?


You're quickly getting back into your stride Tom, do keep it up.


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## tmjr (Dec 28, 2010)

Its no different than using another language. you have to adjust and get used to it.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Hear, hear!


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## newwoodworker (Mar 27, 2009)

Being from England born and raised for half my life before moving to America and lived almost as long over here now I find that I have adopted both forms of measurement and incorporate them both into the projects mostly I switch to metric when it becomes small pieces I cant stand messing with 64th's of an inch MM is just so much easier at that point but on bigger measurements Ironic as it is example I find it easier to use 34 1/2 inchs compared to 876.3 millimeters but can use both if needed.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

In spite of starting this thread Paul, I do exactly as you describe, metric for small, Imperial for large! However, as I've been metric for about 45 years I can visualise a 1200mm x 2400mm sheet of MDF.


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## Ralph Barker (Dec 15, 2008)

harrysin said:


> In spite of starting this thread Paul, I do exactly as you describe, metric for small, Imperial for large! However, as I've been metric for about 45 years *I can visualise a 1200mm x 2400mm sheet of MDF*.


Do the sheets there actually measure that in mm, or do they measure 48" x 96", with the mm designation being rounded for convenience?


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## pal (Feb 13, 2008)

Hi Ralph,
The sheets actually measure 1220mm x 2440mm.

Regards
Harold


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## Ralph Barker (Dec 15, 2008)

Thanks, Harold.


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

Arghhh...

I picked up some 1/4"-20 flat head machine screws from Lowes to hold a sacrificial fence to my SCMS and the danged imperial threaded nuts took a metric wrench. 

D**ned C*mmie plot!! Time to dump Lowes as a supplier of nuts and bolts.

I've no problem with metric or imperial nuts and bolts and have wrenches and sockets for both... but a nut where the head is one and the threads are another. Blasphemy!! (Not to mention being a PITA!)


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

harrysin said:


> America appears to be doing the same as Australia, closing businesses and having the manufacturing done offshore in places like China, Korea, Malaysia etc, and these countries appear to have been using metric for a very long time so no doubt this will influence what industry remains.


You are quite right Harry. It has been impossible for a number of years now to work on a North American made vehicle without a set of metric tools. As the number of vehicle components that are sourced out to countries with cheaper labour increases, the number of parts with metric fasteners, pulley bores, etc. also increase.


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## magicdave (Apr 14, 2010)

that didn't occur to me thank you Cassandra.


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## magicdave (Apr 14, 2010)

harrysin said:


> I'm sure that the imperial equivalent, 23/64" must be a very popular size in America!


Yes it must be and it surely seems as if you are just interested in bashing Americans. This will be my last post on this thread forever. NOW I AM PISSED OFF. By the way Harry.......
IMPERIAL MEASUREMENT IS CALLED THAT BECAUSE IT WAS THE MEASUREMENT SYSTEM OF GREAT BRITAIN. IT WAS AT ONE TIME WIDESPREAD BECAUSE GREAT BRITAIN WENT AROUND THE ENTIRE PLANET COLONIZING EVERY COUNTRY IT COULD DEFEAT ON THE BATTLEFIELD OR AT SEA. When metric came along the United States was the largest manufacturer on the planet hence the resistance to change. I know the metric system and I use Imperial measurement most of the time because most of the tools I use were designed that way. I was interested in this discussion and found some useful information from others including you but I will NOT put up with any more bashing of MY COUNTRY!!! Good Day.


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## Cassandra (Mar 15, 2006)

magicdave said:


> that didn't occur to me thank you Cassandra.


You're welcome, Dave.

Which comment are you referring to?

Cassandra


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

Woo Hoo!! I have surpassed 0.6 kiloposts!! (How many actually contribute to anything?)

MagicDave, If you are true to your word you will not see this response, but I for one would be sorry to see you leave this thread. In truth I have never been a My Country Love it or Leave it type, and after I did leave it for a while (for professional reasons, not evasion of any military obligations; years earlier I had used perfectly legal means to do that; but I have great respect for our veterans, no matter what if any war or "police action" they were part of) I came back with a new and greatly enhanced respect for what this country has done and how it does it. I lived in a nation that was one of the first examples of the U. S. attempting nation building, in a would-be nation that certainly welcomed the end of three centuries of Spanish oppression. The process took almost 50 years and was ended at the end of WWII. I also happen to work at an educational institution that was the place where the best and brightest were brought to learn how to set up an educational system. What that nation certainly learned was how to set up bureaucracies that get in the way and actively prevent progress.
I have never lived in any country other than the U. S. or that nation, so I have no basis to compare the U. S. to all these other nations. I have visited other nations that are very good to visit, but I would not want to live there; knowing I was going to visit one of them was what finally motivated me, after a decade, to get a hair cut and a beard trim. (I have never visited Great Britain, France or any other European country, nor have I visited Australia, Japan, China, either Korea, nor have I even set foot in Mexico or Canada) I had intended to visit many of these nations after I retired but, we will see.

Further background: I have a sister who is an amateur genealogist and a niece who is a professional genealogist. They have traced my ancestry back into Ireland for several generations and to two sets of ancestors from France; my surname is French Huguenot and I actually lived very close to where the French Huguenots landed in the what was to become the U. S. No one has been able to trace my ancestry back to Africa from whence we all come; every member of the RouterForums is a cousin (or closer) to every other member.

By no means do I consider this country perfect; the current debates are proof that I am not alone. One thing that would help the U. S. in the world economy would be if we were to adopt the otherwise world-wide adopted system of measurements. There are at present three nations in the world that have not adopted the metric system for general use, Liberia, Myanmar and the U. S. 

Recent testing shows that our young people (K-12 and even college students) understand decimal much better than they understand fractions. For years I have seen things along the lines of 1/2 + 1/4 = 2/6, and it is getting worse right now in the population I deal with. 

Am I guilty of nation-bashing? I do not think so. This forum is a great testament to the fact that people all around the world have similar interests, aspirations and abilities; we really are all cousins!

I will now climb 1.5 meter (or is it 1.5 km?) down from my soap box (actually roll down the ramp from it)


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## CanuckGal (Nov 26, 2008)

Well if nothing else this thread has been a great history lesson.


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## newwoodworker (Mar 27, 2009)

magicdave said:


> Yes it must be and it surely seems as if you are just interested in bashing Americans. This will be my last post on this thread forever. NOW I AM PISSED OFF. By the way Harry.......
> IMPERIAL MEASUREMENT IS CALLED THAT BECAUSE IT WAS THE MEASUREMENT SYSTEM OF GREAT BRITAIN. IT WAS AT ONE TIME WIDESPREAD BECAUSE GREAT BRITAIN WENT AROUND THE ENTIRE PLANET COLONIZING EVERY COUNTRY IT COULD DEFEAT ON THE BATTLEFIELD OR AT SEA. When metric came along the United States was the largest manufacturer on the planet hence the resistance to change. I know the metric system and I use Imperial measurement most of the time because most of the tools I use were designed that way. I was interested in this discussion and found some useful information from others including you but I will NOT put up with any more bashing of MY COUNTRY!!! Good Day.



Harry isn't bashing America or Americans he is simply sharing his opinion about a method of measurement, surely being so proud of America and what it stands for Freedom of speech would also fall under one of those American values you also hold to a high standard.
It must be an English thing they say you can take the brit out of England but you will never take England out of a brit and we have a ummm very unique sense of humor and sarcasm and a mannerism in the way we speak or should I say "Word things" which often gets confused by other country's. 

I dont want to speak for harry as I could be wrong but im 99.9% sure harry has meant no offense to America or its great people!


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## KUMZUM (Jun 19, 2010)

magicdave said:


> Yes it must be and it surely seems as if you are just interested in bashing Americans. This will be my last post on this thread forever. NOW I AM PISSED OFF. By the way Harry.......
> IMPERIAL MEASUREMENT IS CALLED THAT BECAUSE IT WAS THE MEASUREMENT SYSTEM OF GREAT BRITAIN. IT WAS AT ONE TIME WIDESPREAD BECAUSE GREAT BRITAIN WENT AROUND THE ENTIRE PLANET COLONIZING EVERY COUNTRY IT COULD DEFEAT ON THE BATTLEFIELD OR AT SEA. When metric came along the United States was the largest manufacturer on the planet hence the resistance to change. I know the metric system and I use Imperial measurement most of the time because most of the tools I use were designed that way. I was interested in this discussion and found some useful information from others including you but I will NOT put up with any more bashing of MY COUNTRY!!! Good Day.


Relax my man. Even if he was bashing America or Americans, so be it. Don't let that dictate whether you stay here or not. The dude loves my profile...which is great, cause I never cared much for my nose. I think the majority of us use metric and imperial tools everyday, so I don't understand the conundrum.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

newwoodworker said:


> Harry isn't bashing America or Americans he is simply sharing his opinion about a method of measurement, surely being so proud of America and what it stands for Freedom of speech would also fall under one of those American values you also hold to a high standard.
> It must be an English thing they say you can take the brit out of England but you will never take England out of a brit and we have a ummm very unique sense of humor and sarcasm and a mannerism in the way we speak or should I say "Word things" which often gets confused by other country's.
> 
> I dont want to speak for harry as I could be wrong but im 99.9% sure harry has meant no offense to America or its great people!


You are so right about me Paul, NEVER have I even hinted that I'm an American basher, it's the system of measurement that I consider stupid. Remember that I migrated from Imperial country England when I was about 32 to Imperial country Australia in 1964 but in 1966 we started to slowly change to metric. I have also never denied that for some measurements I still use Imperial. Inches I think should slowly go the way of rods, poles and perches!
By the way, some of my very best friends are Americans, a couple are Canadians and others are all over the world, all of these friendships were formed on this very forum and we correspond by email, PM's and Skype (when I have my voice, which for a while has been leaving me)


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## jschaben (Jun 21, 2009)

harrysin said:


> You are so right about me Paul, NEVER have I even hinted that I'm an American basher, it's the system of measurement that I consider stupid. Remember that I migrated from Imperial country England when I was about 32 to Imperial country Australia in 1964 but in 1966 we started to slowly change to metric. I have also never denied that for some measurements I still use Imperial. Inches I think should slowly go the way of rods, poles and perches!
> By the way, some of my very best friends are Americans, a couple are Canadians and others are all over the world, all of these friendships were formed on this very forum and we correspond by email, PM's and Skype (when I have my voice, which for a while has been leaving me)


Hi Harry - I'm not sure what set the guy off, I reread through the thread (well most of it any, it's becoming a novelh34r and couldn't find anything I would remotely consider anti-American, by you or anyone else. Besides that, in my opinion, citizens of democratic societies have a responsibility to be objectively critical of their governments. 
That said, I'm gonna crawl back in my foxhole and await another installment of your marvelous tutorials


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

You're just too kind John.


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## magicdave (Apr 14, 2010)

I surely hope that your "soapbox" isn't 1.5 km high. That would be pretty dangerous. LOL I am not an America Love it or Leave it kind of guy. I am however an American and do not go around bashing other countries that I only know from reading about their history and news stories etc. There are many countries that were once Dominions of Great Britain that began "life" as penal colonies for the "undesirables" that may or may not have been actual criminal in England. What I do know is that many of those countries that are now independent nations may be somewhat free societies that have loads of problems just we do here in the United States. My comments about Harry bashing America is a reaction to his directly bashing Americans. Those were his words and he specifically used the word Americans. That's is bashing. I have lots of stories such as an acquaintance of mine that has been living here in the US for over 30 years making a good living. He came here originally as the United States office of his father's British based travel agency until it went under. He did not go back to England because to use his words he couldn't do as well financially over there so he stayed. Now 35 years later after making a good living here that wasn't possible for him in England he is still an arrogant jerk that constantly bashes the US. That is an attitude problem many Brits have. They never got over losing two wars to the "upstart" colony. They never seem to be thankful that they don't speak German either. Those attitudes are offensive to me. So it just occurred to me that Harry's original post had a title suggesting the utter stupidity of Imperial Measurement and spoke of inch measurement being a problem when using guide bushings and the terminology belies the problem. Imperial Measurement come from a nation that for some strange reason still recognizes people (royalty) as somehow "better" than others. Is that any different than the US still using a measurement system foisted upon the entire planet by Great Britain? I didn't disagree with him except I was pointing out that the precision adjustment system on my plunge base of choice is in 1 thousandth of an inch increments. I rarely if ever use guide bushings and did not bash whatever country he is from. The system I use is available as metric measurement and I do have lots of metric router accessories since many that hire me to build cabinets ask for hardware that is only available in metric sizes. I can adapt to whatever I need when I am building something and am not so conservative that I will just complain about a measurement system that is antiquated. I even had a garage full of Triumph motorcycles at one time that used fasteners that were "Whitworth" and I had to have a special set of tools for those oddities too. What I did was remove any and all fasteners and converted them to metric. Yes Harry I said metric. Why you may ask? Well because I was working as a mechanic and I worked on Harley Davidson's, BMW's, Honda's,Yamaha's,Suzuki's,Kawasaki's,BSA's, and my favorite old motorcycle the venerable Triumph. I didn't automatically start bashing anyone's home and as far as I am concerned Harry owes me an apology.


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## magicdave (Apr 14, 2010)

Cassandra said:


> You're welcome, Dave.
> 
> Which comment are you referring to?
> 
> Cassandra


I think that it had to do with making 25 posts to qualify for the Eagle contest but don't quote me on that.  J/K The irony is that I did make it to 25 in time and then didn't enter because I was ill at the time and wasn't doing much online.


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## magicdave (Apr 14, 2010)

Most of my ancestry is Scottish(Vikings) (maternal grandmother), Swedish(more Vikings)(maternal grandfather) and Norman French (paternal grandfather)by way of England. The Scots intermarried with the First People of the upper Hudson Valley in what is now upstate New York and my maternal grandmother's father's mother was of the Seneca Nation. I would suspect that all of our families that are of European descent "crossed paths" somewhere along the line in the journey to today. precluding when our bipedal ancestors left the cradle of humanity and spread across the earth. That is of course that some of us are from one of the other recently discovered lines of the evolutionary development of mankind.


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## magicdave (Apr 14, 2010)

BigJimAK said:


> Arghhh...
> 
> I picked up some 1/4"-20 flat head machine screws from Lowes to hold a sacrificial fence to my SCMS and the danged imperial threaded nuts took a metric wrench.
> 
> ...


That may be an anomaly. I know people that used to work for manufacturers in the fastener business and I would have to guess a parts mix-up that got past QC.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

I'm sorry Dave but I really haven't got a clue as to what you feel I've said that deserves an apology. Please do a copy and paste of the sentences in question so that I can judge if an apology is appropriate. Quite frankly, after being in Australia for 46 years and making a far better living than I could possibly have done back in England, I feel NO allegiance to England, just ask my brother-in-law, we've had many heated discussions because he barracks for the Poms in cricket and football, this upsets me because he's enjoyed the hospitality and social services available to him here for so many years, yet shows not a scrap of loyality to Australia.


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## George II (Nov 8, 2007)

Well it's a snowed in day here in Georgia. Nothing to do but sign on the the old router forum and read some "stuff". I decided to read this thread. It's better than situation comedy on television. To be honest who gives a rats ass if we go metric or not? Most of the people in the United States can't do basic math without a calculator..conversion chart built in...problem solved.

The part about the fuel management situation of a aircraft running out of fuel...That was funny..Fuel quantity on an commercial aircraft is measured in lbs...on a standard day that is 6.8 lbs to one gallon of jet fuel (kerosene). That Boeing 767-200 was a operated by a Canadian airline. The final fuel quantity was checked by drip sticks as all airliners are. That plane had the sticks marked in US standard verses metric..The fuel quantity processor was also programed in US standard..of lbs on board. There is no verbiage stating the difference on the indicators in the cockpit. If the world was using standard measurements it would have been avoided...

What does that have to do with routing and woodworking? Nuttin..

It's still fun to see you guys get your panties in a wad over nothing constructive. 

Harry I understand your point quite well....You can stir up a pile of s**t to draw enough flies....I love ya for it..

I hope all our Australian brothers are safe from the floods.

Hang Fire,
"G".


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

Dave, it is good that you have rejoined this thread. 
Harry's original point is that measurements are much more easily made using a decimal system than it is in a system based on many different standards. It is interesting to me that the so-called Imperial system in the U. S. had been defined as related to the SI system, primarily the MKS version but some (the inch) defined in the cgs version. The units of distance in the Imperial system have many different reference points, and they differ from country to country. How many different definitions of the inch are in use world wide? The metric system (now really more properly called the SI) has one reference point for distance, and all other units (mass, energy, etc.) are derived from that one reference point. 

Interestng that the SI uses seconds as the unit of time while some professions such as Sante's use centiminutes. I have tried to see what would be a workable decimal time system based on the time it takes the earth to rotate so that it faces the sun in exactly same direction at the end as it does at the beginning. In space one rotatation takes 23 hr 56 minutes, but because the earth is also revolving around the sun, it takes that extra 4 minutes to face the sun in exactly the same direction, sun to earth. The underlying issue of course is what is the basis for a system of measurements.

To Big Jim's point, I have to live with a similar situation every day. My wheelchair has many bolts and threadscrews that do periodically need to be tightened or adjusted. Some have Imperial heads, some have metric heads so I need to carry a set of hex wrenches that is a mix of the two systems. 

The danger of descending from a 1.5 km soapbox depends on the slope of the ramp; if the ramp complies with ADA requirements it would be at least 36 in wide (0.9 m; defined in inches) but I would want at least side rails and wider, and it would have a slope of 5° (1 inch per foot), it would have to be 18 km flat length or 18.07 km total length (11.23 miles or 11 miles, 1201 feet). I thought my rant was worthy of one on a very high soap box, and certainly no offense was intended to anyone.

Discussion of human evolution is certainly a topic worthy of a thread in the lobby. I am probably guilty of introducing a side-tracking issue, something I criticized in a different thread a few days ago.

Woodworking: We do work with relatively small distances and the calculations are easier in decimal systems, but almost everything I have uses the Imperial system and fractions, usually multiples of 1/16 or sometimes 1/32 inch. Like you, my day job is almost exclusively SI, specifically cgs, and my brain has been wired to use SI measurements in that context. My understanding of Harry's point is that it would be much easier for all if we used SI instead of the mix of Imperial and SI units for the amounts we work with. It certainly would be a monumental task to make everyday life in the U. S. completely SI, and wookworking in all aspects would be at least a nuisance (e.g. SI equivalent of 5/4 hardwood) until we had a totally new generation of woodworkers whose brains are wired to use the SI in all aspects of life. 

As Harry pointed out gasoline utilization is a very problematic area; liters/km converted from mpg is a real challenge in the U. S. and will be for a very long time. Nonetheless, comparisons can be mede and understood so long as the units are consistent. Right now at my day job I am frustrated by the lack of a consistent use of units to measure pressure, whether it be air pressure or water pressure.


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## Lemuzz (Jul 25, 2008)

I have been told that around 90% of the worlds bearings are made in Japan. Of these around 90% are metric. It seems from this that metric tools and machines are dominant. This also explains why metric bearings are considerably cheaper than imperial sizes.


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## CanuckGal (Nov 26, 2008)

We have machines at work from all around the world. Some use metric sized parts/nuts/bolts, some use Imperial. It's a PITA and requires me to have tools to work on both. Replaced parts may get either standard or metric nuts and bolts, whatever a mechanic has handy. This makes things even more of a PITA because the next time you work on that machine you assume it's all one or the other and then find out someone used the wrong bolt. A unified system would be nice. But if I had a choice, I'd choose Imperial because that's what I was raised on and that's what I use in my shop. However I reluctantly admit metric is probably easier. Just can't teach this old cat new tricks.


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

George II said:


> Well it's a snowed in day here in Georgia. Nothing to do but sign on the the old router forum and read some "stuff". I decided to read this thread. It's better than situation comedy on television. To be honest who gives a rats ass if we go metric or not? Most of the people in the United States can't do basic math without a calculator..conversion chart built in...problem solved.
> 
> The part about the fuel management situation of a aircraft running out of fuel...That was funny..Fuel quantity on an commercial aircraft is measured in lbs...on a standard day that is 6.8 lbs to one gallon of jet fuel (kerosene). That Boeing 767-200 was a operated by a Canadian airline. The final fuel quantity was checked by drip sticks as all airliners are. That plane had the sticks marked in US standard verses metric..The fuel quantity processor was also programed in US standard..of lbs on board. There is no verbiage stating the difference on the indicators in the cockpit. If the world was using standard measurements it would have been avoided...
> 
> ...


George, as far as I can tell there have been two incidents involving aircraft flying trans-Canada in which there was confusion between metric and Imperial, separated by several years. The one to which I originally referred was described in Readers Digest and it must have been published there in 1984. 

Is the use of lbs of jet fuel universal? My understanding is that there was confusion in reading the drip sticks. I no longer have access to my original source so I cannot check. I think you are absolutely right in that "If the world was using standard measurements it would have been avoided..."

Harry, your questions and provocative questions make us all think, and that is a good thing. Keep them coming!!


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## OPG3 (Jan 9, 2011)

Both Metric and Imperial have their merits. Personally, I have been involved in precision work since 1968. Being in the US, I "cut my teeth" on Imperial measurements, but Harry is correct in favoring the metric system. I use both systems daily and where problems occur is when one tries to convert from one system to the other. Doing template routing very often, I find the 51/64 router template is rarely utilized, where dimensions 3/4 or 5/8 get used most often. In engineering work, nobody uses slide rules anymore. We are born "metric" (base 10) and should embrace it. If anyone doubts this they should try tying inches to feet to yards - then go to pints to quarts to gallons. Metric has all units of measure respectfully linked. Try turning gallons into pounds and then cubic inches and it is quite obvious that this [US] Imperial system is confusing.


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

Lemuzz said:


> I have been told that around 90% of the worlds bearings are made in Japan. Of these around 90% are metric. It seems from this that metric tools and machines are dominant. This also explains why metric bearings are considerably cheaper than imperial sizes.


Now that I have read your post I cannot resist pointing out that many of the remaining ball bearings are made (or at least the world headquarters of the company that makes them) is located in the town where I have lived since 1987, a town of 20,000 people. The nearest "big" city is 80 miles (130 km), and there is a choice of three such cities (actually metropolitan areas)

A few days ago I had to buy new bolts for my wheelchair. The one metric bolt I needed was 65¢ while the imperial bolts were 9¢ a piece.


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

OPG3 said:


> Both Metric and Imperial have their merits. Personally, I have been involved in precision work since 1968. Being in the US, I "cut my teeth" on Imperial measurements, but Harry is correct in favoring the metric system. I use both systems daily and where problems occur is when one tries to convert from one system to the other. Doing template routing very often, I find the 51/64 router template is rarely utilized, where dimensions 3/4 or 5/8 get used most often. In engineering work, nobody uses slide rules anymore. We are born "metric" (base 10) and should embrace it. If anyone doubts this they should try tying inches to feet to yards - then go to pints to quarts to gallons. Metric has all units of measure respectfully linked. Try turning gallons into pounds and then cubic inches and it is quite obvious that this [US] Imperial system is confusing.


How many people now even "know what a slide rule is for"? (to quote a popular song of some years ago). In many ways the last three sentences of your post reminds me of my recent post, except now expressed in English!

Have you been properly welcomed to the RouterForums? Even so, please allow me to add my voice in welcoming you.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

I suppose changing from one system to another must be like learning a new language, one day you realise that you no longer have to translate from one to the other in your head because you now UNDERSTAND the new language. One thing that took me years to think in metric was litres/100Km, it's only in the last four or five years that I've been able to interpret how economical or otherwise a car is. My Mazda 6 wagon is rated at 7litres/ 100 Km which isn't bad at all and I haven't a clue how that translates to miles per gallon, but I'm sure that someone is going to tell me!


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

harrysin said:


> I suppose changing from one system to another must be like learning a new language, one day you realise that you no longer have to translate from one to the other in your head because you now UNDERSTAND the new language. One thing that took me years to think in metric was litres/100Km, it's only in the last four or five years that I've been able to interpret how economical or otherwise a car is. My Mazda 6 wagon is rated at 7litres/ 100 Km which isn't bad at all and I haven't a clue how that translates to miles per gallon, but I'm sure that someone is going to tell me!


Hi Harry,

Who did you expect would tell you? 7 liters/100 km is 33.6 mpg (US gallons, not Imperial gallons). In my head I figured slightly greater than 30 mpg. 100 km is about 62 miles, 7 liters is just under 2 US gallons. Your gas mileage is indeed very good. (My time in a SI country apparently did help for something)
What hybrid or plug-in electric vehicles are available in Western Australia? 

Somewhere years ago I came across the idea that one does not understand new language until they dream in that language! I have had many discussions with many people whose first language is not English, and this invaluable factlet seems to be true. Those who do not dream in English do, for example, hear what I say, translate it into their langualge, think about it in their language, formulate a response in their language, translate the respnse into English, then speak the response in English.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Harry

Your speed O meter in your Mazda, both Km and Miles ? or did you take a black marker and mark out the Miles numbers..


==========



harrysin said:


> I suppose changing from one system to another must be like learning a new language, one day you realise that you no longer have to translate from one to the other in your head because you now UNDERSTAND the new language. One thing that took me years to think in metric was litres/100Km, it's only in the last four or five years that I've been able to interpret how economical or otherwise a car is. My Mazda 6 wagon is rated at 7litres/ 100 Km which isn't bad at all and I haven't a clue how that translates to miles per gallon, but I'm sure that someone is going to tell me!


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## Ralph Barker (Dec 15, 2008)

Some years back while attending a computer standards meeting in Germany, I thought I was being racy and adventurous when driving down the Autobahn at 90. Then, when someone zoomed by in the passing lane, I remembered it was measured in km/hour, and not that fast at all. 

I think the language analogy is apt, Harry. It's the transition that's difficult, particularly since everything doesn't get converted all at once. Then, there are the subtleties - like the differences between English, American, and Australian, language-wise.


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

bobj3 said:


> Hi Harry
> 
> Your speed O meter in your Mazda, both Km and Miles ? or did you take a black marker and mark out the Miles numbers..
> 
> ...


The best-handling car I have owned was German-made. I could switch between Km and Miles at will, but because the U. S. is stuck on miles, I kept it in miles . 

Ralph, to your point, this same car had to be modified before importation in order to be street-legal in the U. S. It was built for the Autobahn. Does anyone know if there is a speed limit on the Autobahn?

I recall discussion in the U. S. when we were about to switch to SI about whether the national speed limit would be raised from 55 mph (89 kph) to 100 kph (62 mph). Ralph, you were driving at the U. S. speed limit (except for 4 lane divided highways)!


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## thejh (Dec 3, 2007)

Harry, I see you have been on this metric campain for some time now. Here is a repost of my intro to the forums and your input.

me "Well, I got the DeWalt! Now my research for bits and accessories starts. I want to get some decent bits and don't want to go over $100 to start. I know I need dados with 3/4 and possible 23/34 depending on the plywood, I did not know that some 3/4 plywood is actually 23/34. Also I will need a rabbit bit. I was going to clamp a straight edge for now but I guess I should go ahead and pick up the edge guide for it?"

"Isn't it obvious why sooner or later you are all going to demand that the USA goes fully metric!!!"
__________________
Harry


My response "Yea we were supposed to go to metric when I was a kid in the early 80’s but it never happened. Metric does seem easier with everything based on 10 but I do not see certain measurement standards switching here. I do believe that reloaders will be using grains for bullets and powder until the end of time! For Gods sake the Brits still use stones for body weight and furlongs are still used in horse racing. Because of my hobbies, competitive rifle shooting, ammunition reloading, working on new and old motorcycles and now beginning wood projects I have to know and use many standards of tools. I have metric, American standard (imperial), and even Whitworth (for old British cars and motorcycles) tools. I don’t mind the different standards as long as I know what I’m dealing with. What I do not like is the bastard “Americanmetri” or what ever you want to call it where nuts and bolts are made between metric and standard where neither fit all that well."


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## CanuckGal (Nov 26, 2008)

My Camaro can be switched from imperial to metric for all functions. I had to switch the gas usage to mpg so I could figure out what I was getting. Gets about 22 mpg. Not bad for a 312HP 6 cylinder.


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## Ralph Barker (Dec 15, 2008)

mftha said:


> . . . Does anyone know if there is a speed limit on the Autobahn?


When I was first there in the '60s, there were generally no speed limits on the autobahn. Unless you were driving at more than 120mph, getting in the left lane was a bad idea. When I went back in 1990, most sections were speed controlled.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

bobj3 said:


> Hi Harry
> 
> Your speed O meter in your Mazda, both Km and Miles ? or did you take a black marker and mark out the Miles numbers..
> 
> ...


The ones here in Canada have kilometres as the larger number and a smaller, less conspicuous, mile per hour number below in case we cross the border going south. Everyone here talks in kilometres now, or clicks, as they are more popularly called. By the way, same cars as you drive, made in the same places, just with a different speedometer.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

bobj3 said:


> Hi Harry
> 
> Your speed O meter in your Mazda, both Km and Miles ? or did you take a black marker and mark out the Miles numbers..
> 
> ...


No Bob, all cars since the early days of changed road speed signs are in Km/hour. I had a Datson 240C wagon at the time and that had a dual reading dial. Circular stickers were available to stick on the speedo over the mph of existing cars.
If you intend to come and visit us one day, you'd betted start brushing up your metric and perhaps I should send you a couple of car games so that you become familiar with driving on the left of the road with a Km/hr speedo and road signs. A question for you, in all new car reviews, the engine torque is quoted in Nm (Newton metres) how is it described in the US?


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

mftha said:


> Hi Harry,
> 
> Who did you expect would tell you? 7 liters/100 km is 33.6 mpg (US gallons, not Imperial gallons). In my head I figured slightly greater than 30 mpg. 100 km is about 62 miles, 7 liters is just under 2 US gallons. Your gas mileage is indeed very good. (My time in a SI country apparently did help for something)
> What hybrid or plug-in electric vehicles are available in Western Australia?
> ...


You are so perceptive Tom. Could you please go just one step further and give to me in BRITISH miles/gallon because as I recall, back in England, a gallon of water weighed ten pounds whereas the US gallon only weighs 8.35 pounds, a significant difference.


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## Wobbly (Jan 3, 2011)

After driving in Japan for five years when I returned to the USA, I would occasionally get into the car and find that the steering wheel had been moved over to the left side while I was shopping. What was worse was occasionally starting to drive on the wrong side of the road.

There's nothing like taking the ferry from France to England and having to drive on the wrong side of the road upon disembarkation. The first roundabout is always a thriller.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Harry




===========



harrysin said:


> No Bob, all cars since the early days of changed road speed signs are in Km/hour. I had a Datson 240C wagon at the time and that had a dual reading dial. Circular stickers were available to stick on the speedo over the mph of existing cars.
> If you intend to come and visit us one day, you'd betted start brushing up your metric and perhaps I should send you a couple of car games so that you become familiar with driving on the left of the road with a Km/hr speedo and road signs. A question for you, in all new car reviews, the engine torque is quoted in Nm (Newton metres) how is it described in the US?


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

harrysin said:


> You are so perceptive Tom. Could you please go just one step further and give to me in BRITISH miles/gallon because as I recall, back in England, a gallon of water weighed ten pounds whereas the US gallon only weighs 8.35 pounds, a significant difference.


Harry, The utter stupidity of the Imperial system! I specified U. S. gallons exactly because I thought you might operate with British (and Canadian?) gallons. As I calculate it, your car gets 40 mpg British. I have no idea how the U. S. and British gallons came to be so different. I grew up "knowing" the British gallon is 5 quarts (U. S. quarts). We cannot even agree on what is a gallon!

Thanks very much for the great compliment. My first experience as a college prof was in the Philippines. There are over 7000 islands, and each island has its own dialect if not own language. Some large islands such as the one in where Manila is have several unrelated languages, e.g. Illocono, Ifugao, Tagalog to name three. I neither speak nor read any of them. The nation has three official languages, Spanish (almost never used), English, and a language made up based on the dialect found around Manila. My mother-in-law and late father-in-law are both Filipino, but from different islands. They had one language in common: English. At the university level the medium of instruction is English. I taught largely 3rd year and graduate students. The first essays I had to grade were a real eye opener for me. The syntax and vocabulary were very different from anything I had ever encountered, and different students had different forms. I already knew about the strange intonations, and that they had trouble understanding my accent (what accent? I don't have any accent!) It was a real struggle for me to discern the meaning of their answers. I simply could not grade based on my English. They did have one thing in common: use of the SI (metric). 
That background greatly helped me deal with the students I now deal with, from Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia, several different parst of India, South Korea, China, Saudi Arabia, Kenya, Palestinian Israel, and I may have one coming from Iraq.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

mftha said:


> Harry, The utter stupidity of the Imperial system! I specified U. S. gallons exactly because I thought you might operate with British (and Canadian?) gallons. As I calculate it, your car gets 40 mpg British. I have no idea how the U. S. and British gallons came to be so different. I grew up "knowing" the British gallon is 5 quarts (U. S. quarts). We cannot even agree on what is a gallon!
> 
> Thanks very much for the great compliment. My first experience as a college prof was in the Philippines. There are over 7000 islands, and each island has its own dialect if not own language. Some large islands such as the one in where Manila is have several unrelated languages, e.g. Illocono, Ifugao, Tagalog. I neither speak nor read any of them. The nation has three official languages, Spanish (almost never used), English, and a language made up based on the dialect found around Manila. My mother-in-law and late father-in-law are both Filipino, but from different islands. They had one language in common: English. At the university level the medium of instruction is English. I taught largely 3rd year and graduate students. The first essays I had to grade were a real eye opener for me. The syntax and vocabulary were very different from anything I had ever encountered, and different students had different forms. I already knew about the strange intonations, and that they had trouble understanding my accent (what accent? I don't have any accent!) It was a real struggle for me to discern the meaning of their answers. I simply could not grade based on my English. They did have one thing in common: use of the SI (metric).
> That background greatly helped me deal with the students I now deal with, from Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia, several different parst of India, South Korea, China, Saudi Arabia, Kenya, Palestinian Israel, and I may have one coming from Iraq.


WOW, 40 miles to the gallon, I can't believe it, my first four wheels in about 1954 was a 1934 Ford 8 and I was lucky if I got 30 miles to the gallon. Are you sure of your calculations Tom?
I regularly talk to people in Manila, my two cell phones and ADSL2+ broadband are with Dodo who's tech. support is in Manilla and I'm a regular caller! All the people that I speak to there have excellent English, I've never had a problem understanding them and usually after my particular problem has been solved we chat. Manila is also in the same time zone as here in Western Australia.
You're certainly having a colourful life Tom, and who knows, one day, stem cell technology could have you back on your feet, I certainly hope so.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi


Back in the day I could buy gas for 30 cents a gal. and I didn't care what kind of miles I got on a gal. of gas..but I only made 75.oo week also..and my house payment was 110.oo per . the good old days,now I put that out for full tank of gas..and my truck still gets the same 10 miles per.gal.. 


=======

===


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

harrysin said:


> WOW, 40 miles to the gallon, I can't believe it, my first four wheels in about 1954 was a 1934 Ford 8 and I was lucky if I got 30 miles to the gallon. Are you sure of your calculations Tom?
> I regularly talk to people in Manila, my two cell phones and ADSL2+ broadband are with Dodo who's tech. support is in Manilla and I'm a regular caller! All the people that I speak to there have excellent English, I've never had a problem understanding them and usually after my particular problem has been solved we chat. Manila is also in the same time zone as here in Western Australia.
> You're certainly having a colourful life Tom, and who knows, one day, stem cell technology could have you back on your feet, I certainly hope so.


Harry, I have by now triple checked my calculations, and they come out the same. 7 liters is 1.54 British gallons, and 100 km is 62.14 miles. 62.14 ÷ 1.54 is 40.35 mpg. Interesting that mpg higher numbers are better but the SI form is liters/100 km so lower numbers are better.

The Filipino students I was dealing with had in many cases been using English for only a few years. All well-educated Filipinos have very good command of English so I am not surprised the people you talk to in Manila have excellent English.

If I were a rat (there are some people who think that I am!) there is now a 30% chance my spinal cord injury could be cured even without stem cells, but those treatments are not approved for human use. 

One of the my biggest regrets about the time I lived in the Philippines is that I never had a chance to tour Western Australia. I have been fascinated by it for many different reasons for many years now.


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## Cassandra (Mar 15, 2006)

Metric Conversion charts and calculators


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

I do believe you Tom even though I find it amazing considering I'm no slouch on the road, I like fast getaways and set the cruise control 2Km over the speed limit when I don't have the sat-nav on otherwise it keeps telling me with a nasty tone in it's voice "you're speeding"!


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Cassandra said:


> Metric Conversion charts and calculators


It's now book-marked thank you Cassandra.


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## Cassandra (Mar 15, 2006)

You're welcome, Harry!


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi

Thanks for the the link But how about using Google and use your hand held device..cell phone now days will do it all..on the fly... 

========


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## magicdave (Apr 14, 2010)

To be honest I never actually disagreed with Harry. I do agree that there should be one standard. I turned wrenches for so long that when I began seeing both metric and Imp. fasteners on automobiles it made me angry at first but after a short learning curve I became used to this anomaly. I have not acquired that "auto-translation" for other metric measurement however. Your calculations of time very interesting too. I just had a thought about that atomic clock in Colorado. Getting the government to alter our time calculation to something different than seconds/minutes/hours would prove an impossible task. I understand Harry's dilemma in calculating an offset having to use a system that isn't in reality a standard. This whole thing got started because I mentioned my Micro Fence system adjusts by one thousandth of an inch increments. I do agree with you that most people cannot do the simple math required when dealing with fractions. I had the advantage of attending school way back when teachers were there because they loved to teach and were very professional about their careers. I believe that students had fewer "rights" back then too. I am saddened by the state of education here in the US. I do not know how it is elsewhere but I taught for a few years back in the '90's and was appalled by my students lack of self respect and the respect of anyone else for that matter. I attributed it to bad parenting but cannot be certain if my theory is correct. I had classes with 25 students. 5 of them could complete a math assignment without a calculator. The other 20 could not even set up the problem on paper let alone solve it. I could not spend the entire school year teaching math that should have been taught to them in lower grades. It was not fair to my 5 good students. I wound up transferring to a high school and taught physics instead of math. Yeah I know a mechanic with degrees in the sciences sounds weird . LOL Thanks for your post it was very educational.


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## magicdave (Apr 14, 2010)

Well Harry, I cannot seem to find it but I think it was a post I made because I ran across a router bit with an odd measurement in millimeters. I seem to recall it was 9.1 mm which I found odd and you made some comment about it being American. I was not feeling well at the time and it set me off. If you don't feel like an apology is due that's cool.
I still think it must have been some sort of mistake by the manufacturer. I remember when the school system here began to prep students to change over to a decimal based system. I believe it happened when I was in what is now called middle school but I am not sure. I do remember thinking how much easier it would be though. I cannot even remember why it was abandoned either. I do know that I have dealt with so many different measurement systems I can deal with them for the most part and without using a calculator but I did take physics in high school before calculators were around. I remember asking a teacher when I was in elementary school how they built structures in ancient times using cubit when men were of differing height and therefore had different length arms. My teacher sent me to the principal's office for being a smart ass.  I was serious though. I gave some thought to the measurement system on my precision plunge base which is graduated in 1 thousandth of an inch increments and realized that using decimals would be much easier and would not be a problem but rather than offering a lead "metric" lead screw the manufacturer supplies a conversion chart. Each division on the lead screw is the equivalent of .0254mm so "metric" conversion could be easily achieved without difficult alteration. I use 8 mm bits more often than 1/4 inch because they are much more robust but living here in the States my choices are geared to what is available to me. I wasn't trying to get into a "pissing contest" with you when I posted that I had run across an odd sized bit in millimeters but just as an observation that I had made at a store while shopping for some tools.

PS:I need some Black Accacia for a guitar that I am building. Do you know where I can find one piece of AAAA grade fairly wide piece that is at least 16mm thick and 180mm wide x 530mm long and one piece that is 16mm thick and 120mm wide x 900mm long?


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

What you must realise Dave is that the average woodworker does not have your maths. skills, therefore when it comes to calculating offsets, metric needs neither a calculator nor pencil and paper. I can't imagine any woodworker who couldn't calculate 40-10+150 in their head, the result being the template hole size for a 150mm rebate for a tile in a lazy Susan, using a 40mm template guide and a 10mm bit.
This thread has reached what is probably a record number of viewings and postings, that coupled with my 77 year old memory, probably accounts for the fact that I have no recollection of the post to which your refer, but one thing that I AM sure of, is the fact that I have never been an American basher, if an answer of mine struck you as such, then I offer my unequivocal apology Dave. Are we friends again?


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## magicdave (Apr 14, 2010)

Of course we are Harry. I gave some thought to your suggestion about many woodworkers not having good math skills when it suddenly dawned on me that my level of mathematics isn't common and my assumption that "doing the math" was just a matter of grabbing a pencil and a piece of paper. I should be ashamed for my arrogance because I often do complex math problems in my head when I am on a long distance trip and the "white line fever" is beginning to set in. Some of those problems involves multiple steps and keeping everything in it's proper order isn't something that was easily accomplished. I do know that such mental exercises keep the mind sharp. Sharp tools make the task at hand easier if it involves math. I never really used Differential Calculus except in school. I suppose that had I actually worked as an electrical engineer I might have but I only got my degree because I wanted the knowledge. That's the only reason I even attended college was for the knowledge and not to pursue a degree or a career since I spent my adult life mostly on stage playing my guitar and sometimes I had a day job working in a garage repairing motor vehicles with both two and four wheels but other times I worked as a chef. I guess I am just a weirdo. LOL Have a grand day and don't worry Harry I think it is all good. Peace.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

You're very gracious Dave. I wish that I had your maths skills, I left high school with lots of electrical and electronic knowledge but very little maths. It was only when I started technical college, three nights a week plus one day a week that I realised how important maths was if I was to pass exams. and because I soaked up electronics like a sponge, the maths started to make sense. Having not forgotten the struggle that I had with maths, I try to make calculations in my projects as simple as possible, and what could be simpler than metric, in a worse case scenario, most members have ten fingers and ten toes to use as an abacus!


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## Ralph Barker (Dec 15, 2008)

harrysin said:


> . . . in a worse case scenario, most members have ten fingers and ten toes to use as an abacus!


True, but I always put my shoes back on, for safety sake, after using my toes.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Ralph Barker said:


> True, but I always put my shoes back on, for safety sake, after using my toes.


But of course Ralph, that's what I would expect. Don't forget that digits would only be used for the calculations, well before the work started.


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## newwoodworker (Mar 27, 2009)

Thankfully with us being wood workers we could always produce our own abacus from left over scraps save getting so many splinters in our feet :sarcastic:


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

harrysin said:


> What you must realise Dave is that the average woodworker does not have your maths. skills, therefore when it comes to calculating offsets, metric needs neither a calculator nor pencil and paper. I can't imagine any woodworker who couldn't calculate 40-10+150 in their head, the result being the template hole size for a 150mm rebate for a tile in a lazy Susan, using a 40mm template guide and a 10mm bit.
> This thread has reached what is probably a record number of viewings and postings, that coupled with my 77 year old memory, probably accounts for the fact that I have no recollection of the post to which your refer, but one thing that I AM sure of, is the fact that I have never been an American basher, if an answer of mine struck you as such, then I offer my unequivocal apology Dave. Are we friends again?


Hi Harry,

Just noticed your reference to a 150mm tile in Lazy Susan..... I must try and remember these things....LOL.

I have just ordered the 20mm and 30mm template guides for the Makita.


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## bikegeek (Jan 12, 2011)

bobj3 said:


> Hi
> 
> Thanks for the the link But how about using Google and use your hand held device..cell phone now days will do it all..on the fly...
> 
> ========


Cell Phone!, Surely I'm not the only person who keep a slide rule in the toolbox  It's the perfect tool for all those conversions and trig you need to do in the shop. 

And it won't ring on you in the middle of a cut.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

jw2170 said:


> Hi Harry,
> 
> Just noticed your reference to a 150mm tile in Lazy Susan..... I must try and remember these things....LOL.
> 
> I have just ordered the 20mm and 30mm template guides for the Makita.


Now you're cooking with gas James, you'll be amazed at what you can produce once you have the 40mm, 30mm and 20mm template guides. Eventually aim to add a 35mm and 25mm guide to make your projects the envy of the membership. Having cutters of 3mm,1/8",6mm,1/4",10mm,3/8",12mm and 1/2", coupled with the above mentioned guides PLUS you're Imperial set will soon have you designing quite complex projects.


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## magicdave (Apr 14, 2010)

bikegeek said:


> Cell Phone!, Surely I'm not the only person who keep a slide rule in the toolbox  It's the perfect tool for all those conversions and trig you need to do in the shop.
> 
> And it won't ring on you in the middle of a cut.


When I was in high school we used slide rules because scientific calculators weren't something that were either affordable or invented yet. LOL


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## Heyjohn (Jul 19, 2010)

What I have found is if you ask someone how many inches in lets say 200 mm ,they say "I havent a clue". I then say how many quarters are there in 200 cents and they say "
Thats easy 8 inches. The easiest way is to convert mm to cents and found how many quarters there are.(Approx)


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

Heyjohn said:


> What I have found is if you ask someone how many inches in lets say 200 mm ,they say "I havent a clue". I then say how many quarters are there in 200 cents and they say "
> Thats easy 8 inches. The easiest way is to convert mm to cents and found how many quarters there are.(Approx)


G’day John

Welcome to the router forum. 

Thank you for joining us


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## magicdave (Apr 14, 2010)

That's a good way to get someone not familiar with "metric" measuring standards. I have been doing the 25.4 calculations in my head for so long that it is almost automatic but I regularly run across people that struggle with it. I sometimes tell them to "pretend that 2.5 centimeters is an inch. That seems to help but for some reason the quarters analogy never occurred to me.


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## magicdave (Apr 14, 2010)

harrysin said:


> Now you're cooking with gas James, you'll be amazed at what you can produce once you have the 40mm, 30mm and 20mm template guides. Eventually aim to add a 35mm and 25mm guide to make your projects the envy of the membership. Having cutters of 3mm,1/8",6mm,1/4",10mm,3/8",12mm and 1/2", coupled with the above mentioned guides PLUS you're Imperial set will soon have you designing quite complex projects.


Hey Harry a while back I mentioned running across a bit that had 9.1mm etched on the shank. A couple of days ago while reading an article on ballistics I discovered the significance of 9.1mm. It is .38 caliber. A 9mm handgun bullet is .38 caliber which normally measures 9.1mm. On further examination of the bit I saw it isn't a solid carbide router bit but is a metal cutting bit.


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

There you go Dave, not only have you solved a real puzzle, but you have the means to make your own .38 revolver!


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## toolstoday (Feb 9, 2011)

I always wondered why the clock is 12 or 24 hours and not 10?
John


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## Jclaude (Oct 19, 2007)

toolstoday said:


> I always wondered why the clock is 12 or 24 hours and not 10?
> John


John,
This is historical, the Babylonians who first divided the time had six periods in the day,, three for the day light and three for the night. Six was a kind of magic number, their numeral system was based on 60.
Afterward the Egyptians (not the revolutionizers, the oldest!) divided again by two, and it has been divided again by two by scientist who needed more precision.
And we keep it! At least this is was is commonly assumed by scientific community.

Jean Claude


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## dapetersen (Aug 23, 2010)

But the day is only 23 hours and 56 minutes long, and what makes the stars change position night to night.

Dave
P.S. sorry, the astronomer got loose.


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

dapetersen said:


> But the day is only 23 hours and 56 minutes long, and what makes the stars change position night to night.
> 
> Dave
> P.S. sorry, the astronomer got loose.



Is that why we have daylight saving? To save all those 4 minutes???


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## Rabelais (Feb 3, 2008)

jw2170 said:


> Is that why we have daylight saving? To save all those 4 minutes???


No, we have leap years for that purpose.


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## bharner (Dec 27, 2010)

Just saw this thread and have been amused by it.
I love the tape measure my uncle brought me from Canada with both SAE and Metric measurements.
Now I don't have to mess with fractions as much.


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## papawd (Jan 5, 2011)

Hey I remember in 6th or 7th grade learning the metric system because we were told in the next 2-3 years the U.S. will switch over to metric and it took longer than that to get the ever popular 2 liter coke bottles, and I remember even seeing a few gas pumps selling gas in liters and some people talking about how cheap the gas was till we showed them how much a 2liter bottle filled a gallon milk jug (whoa that is funny to think of now).... Been both amused and learned a little as to say my pencil will not draw a line 64 ths of inch when measuring with ruler at least my eyes won't be that exact..and i do have a a square with inches on one side and metric on other and yes there have been times when I use the metric side as it is easier to see and calculate ....


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

It will happen, it's inevitable, the whole world can't be out of step and only the USA instep. My guess is that it will happen very gradually to the point where people will one day realise that they are using metric more and more and WOW, it IS easy!


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## mpbc48 (Sep 17, 2010)

dapetersen said:


> But the day is only 23 hours and 56 minutes long, and what makes the stars change position night to night.
> 
> Dave
> P.S. sorry, the astronomer got loose.


Hi Dave,

Every time I see that statistic, I go through the math that tells me in 180 days it would be noon when my clock says midnight. 

180 x 4 = 720 minutes.
720 minutes = 12 hours. 

I know you're correct, but the math of it befuddles me. ":^)

Mike


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

*Easy Detail Distance Measuring / Marking*

I'm probably the only one here who can't see as well as he used to but I'll be the first to say that since I got the Incra 3" T-rule about a year ago I loved it so much I bought the 12" set, and when I needed some longer for a project I'm working on, got the 18" set. 

This isn't really an Imperial / metric issue but since y'all mentioned measurements I've pasted a picture of their 6" set. If you will use a 0.5mm mechanical pencil, it inserts in the little holes in the rule and, by dragging the T-bar against the edge, draws a straight line. I agree that it's 1/64" resolution is overkill but I do use the heck out of the 1/16" slots... and once or twice a 1/32" slot. <g> 

INCRA Measuring, Marking & Layout


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## Cassandra (Mar 15, 2006)

mpbc48 said:


> Hi Dave,
> 
> Every time I see that statistic, I go through the math that tells me in 180 days it would be noon when my clock says midnight.
> 
> ...


180 days is about 1/2 year.

In 1/2 year, the Earth has moved to the opposite side of the Sun. 

Thus, the Sun would have moved from the noon position to the midnight position, relative to the same day of the year. 

All things being relative.

Cassandra


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Jim

Some OLD guys can still see well  (with glasses) 
Incra got me about 3 years ago and I got the small and the big sets off Amazon 
Once I got the sets I needed the pencils , so I got about 10 boxes of dif.kinds, can't have to many on hand  the pencil lead breaks so easy on wood marking jobs.. 

Don't tell Harry but I use them all the time on Metric stuff, I like the edge ruler the best and use it all the time..mark both sides of the board at the one time..

Amazon.com: Incra BNDRUL12 12-Inch Incra Precision Bend Rule: Home Improvement

Amazon.com: Incra PROTRAC06 6-Inch Precision Marking Protractor: Home Improvement

Amazon.com: Incra ruler Home Improvement
==========




BigJimAK said:


> I'm probably the only one here who can't see as well as he used to but I'll be the first to say that since I got the Incra 3" T-rule about a year ago I loved it so much I bought the 12" set, and when I needed some longer for a project I'm working on, got the 18" set.
> 
> This isn't really an Imperial / metric issue but since y'all mentioned measurements I've pasted a picture of their 6" set. If you will use a 0.5mm mechanical pencil, it inserts in the little holes in the rule and, by dragging the T-bar against the edge, draws a straight line. I agree that it's 1/64" resolution is overkill but I do use the heck out of the 1/16" slots... and once or twice a 1/32" slot. <g>
> 
> INCRA Measuring, Marking & Layout


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

You're getting there Bob! I'm eagerly awaiting for the day that when I log in there will be a post saying "an apology to my mate downunder" and it will say something like " sorry Harry, but you were right, I've been secretly using mainly metric for some time now and as you've always said, it's easy to do the sums and more accurate. Please hurry, I'm in my 78th year!


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Harry

You are a old fart, I'm sure I will go b/4 you do..I didn't think I would see 21 years old but here I am..pushing 70 real hard and you are right I have used metric for a long time but not to good at it...if I want 1/8" I still use .125 or the 2nd little mark on the ruler.. 

=======



harrysin said:


> You're getting there Bob! I'm eagerly awaiting for the day that when I log in there will be a post saying "an apology to my mate downunder" and it will say something like " sorry Harry, but you were right, I've been secretly using mainly metric for some time now and as you've always said, it's easy to do the sums and more accurate. Please hurry, I'm in my 78th year!


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## mpbc48 (Sep 17, 2010)

Thanks Cassandra,

It is easier to wrap my head around it when viewed spacially rather than mathematically.



bobj3 said:


> Once I got the sets I needed the pencils , so I got about 10 boxes of dif.kinds, can't have to many on hand  the pencil lead breaks so easy on wood marking jobs..
> 
> Don't tell Harry but I use them all the time on Metric stuff, I like the edge ruler the best and use it all the time..mark both sides of the board at the one time..


Bob, 

Where did you find metric pencils? I would have converted over a long time ago, but I could never find metric pencils. Maybe its because I'm in North Dakota... we still have covered wagons and wood sidewalks. LOL *":^)*

Mike


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## Ralph Barker (Dec 15, 2008)

mpbc48 said:


> Thanks Cassandra,
> 
> It is easier to wrap my head around it when viewed spacially rather than mathematically.
> 
> ...


Mike, the metric pencils come cleverly disguised as mechanical pencils, with 0.5mm leads. It's an Aussie plot, I tell ya. 

Personally, I use a Japanese marking knife, which marks in metric, but can be interpreted as Imperial.


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## mpbc48 (Sep 17, 2010)

Ralph Barker said:


> Mike, the metric pencils come cleverly disguised as mechanical pencils, with 0.5mm leads. It's an Aussie plot, I tell ya.
> 
> Personally, I use a Japanese marking knife, which marks in metric, but can be interpreted as Imperial.


I just knew the Aussies were up to something... I sure didn't expect metric pencils though.

I bet you had to learn Japanese to use that marking knife, didn't you? ":^)

Mike


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

Mike.. Can you say Sue-Shee? <g>


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

*We have inroads.........*

Last night I was watching a program on cable called "Mega Factories"?.

The episode was on the Winnebago plant in Iowa.

Every measurement the workers quoted and all their jigs were in Metric.

You could see the markings, 38mm 50mm etc, on the spacers.

Not one imperial measurement was mentioned.

Look out, BJ, we are on the way........:dance3::dance3::dance3:

As soon as I saw the program I thought of this thread.........


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## derek willis (Jan 21, 2009)

Going metric in the U/K was the best and most accurate thing we ever did, be it when setting out the ground for excavation work or working on our hobby of woodworking, it was a nightmare trying to transfer measurements with a theolodite in imperial style, but dead easy with metrication.


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## Grumpy Old Tom (Feb 25, 2011)

*Adding to the dogpile*

I mean, 35 pages, I may as well jump in. Don't even dream that I've read everything, gents! And we probably won't settle anything either!

I'm a mechanical engineer. In college, way back in the 70's - 80's, they taught us most everything in metric. I get out in the industry, behold, everything is "U.S. customary."

For woodworking, I prefer English. I have a 24" machinist's combination square graduated in 16th's, 32nds, 64ths and 100ths! (It's tough for the old eyes to even see those!) But I also have a dial caliper/depth gauge good to .001" - I often use this to set the rip fence on the table saw, depth for the router & dado cutter, etc. I needed this kind of accuracy for my first major project (I'm new at this), routing mating cove and quarter-round profiles for the outside rails of a door I was making. I don't have a joiner or planer yet so I had to get withing sanding accuracy on the depths.

The thing I like about English is it "halves" well. But in the end, I find that after the first cut I often use direct comparisons - I'm replacing all the interior doors in the house, and all that is direct (and bloody careful) transfer.

A couple of war stories to add to the heap:

- My boss is accustomed to using heat transfer units of watts/(inch-°C). He holds 7 patents...
- On my daughter's car, when changing the alternator I found a stud that was metric on one end and English on the other!
- I still have my slide rule. When I went back to school in *1985*, many of the current crop of engineering students had no idea what it was, and the few that had heard of it had no idea how to use it.
- I now have a working slide rule for my computer screen. It's great to pull on new hires! But for real work we have a software package that allows you to input & display your calculations pretty much as you'd have done on paper. But it tracks the units, so it doesn't matter what system you use. You can input in mm and get results in inches, feet, miles, km, and so on. Of course, you can also add your own units, and so I have have hanks, spindles, furlongs, firkens, barleycorns, hands, hogsheads, etc., all of which are actually usable and translate to all the other units as needed! My poor co-workers occasionally get pranked with my "odd units."

Best to all,

Tom


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## Grumpy Old Tom (Feb 25, 2011)

*And here it doesn't matter!*

So I'm making up a little piece of cherry to which I will attach three coat hooks. The hooks attach through the back, one has a screw and one is just a locating boss (so you'd want it to fit fairly tight). I get out the calipers (.001" accurate) and create the attached layout, dimensioned in English and [metric].

Ok, I can drill the lower hole with either a 1/4" bit or a 7 mm bit, the 1/4" is tighter (I don't know what diameters they sell metric bits in, but even a 6.5 mm bit would have not been as tight as the 1/4" bit).

I can drill the top hole with a 9/32" or an 8mm or even a 5/16th inch.

Now given the distance between centers and the boss diameters, I suspect this is a metric design. But to put more than one hook on the piece, you have to lay out from the center line, which means you halve the .906 center dimension in the attachment. So I'm stuck either way - 11.5 mm or 29/64ths! I don't have a single rule that has 0.5 mm graduations, I've never even seen a metric machinist's rule, but I was able to use my English machinist's rule to do my layout and it came out fine. But yowser, whoever did this one didn't make it "nice" for English OR metric! :wacko:

Lol's,

Tom


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Grumpy Old Tom said:


> So I'm making up a little piece of cherry to which I will attach three coat hooks. The hooks attach through the back, one has a screw and one is just a locating boss (so you'd want it to fit fairly tight). I get out the calipers (.001" accurate) and create the attached layout, dimensioned in English and [metric].
> 
> Ok, I can drill the lower hole with either a 1/4" bit or a 7 mm bit, the 1/4" is tighter (I don't know what diameters they sell metric bits in, but even a 6.5 mm bit would have not been as tight as the 1/4" bit).
> 
> ...


Just a couple of points Tom, metric drills are available here in 0.1mm increments and our steel rules have the first 100mm in 0.5mm divisions.


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## Ralph Barker (Dec 15, 2008)

Amazon.com: Starrett C331-150 Full Flexible Steel Rule With Millimeter And Inch Graduations, 150mm Length, 12mm Width, 0.4mm Thickness: Home Improvement

One just needs good eyes, or a magnifier, to see the 0.5mm graduations (just like /64ths on the inch side). :wacko:


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## Grumpy Old Tom (Feb 25, 2011)

Thanks, gents! When I'm "reverse engineering" something like that I'll switch between whichever unit system gets the job done better; I can eyeball half a mm pretty well. But I think those hooks would've had to use stretchable quatrazoobies to get "nice" numbers.

The old eyes like "nice" numbers...

BTW mounted the hooks to the now-varnished piece this AM before work. They were a perfect fit! :dance3:


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## papawd (Jan 5, 2011)

I still use both sometimes it is easier to read the metric lines and why,WHY,oh WHY do they put metric and english bolts and nuts on the same equipment ... Settle on one or the other


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

I hear ya there, Warren.. What *really* got me the other day was when I ran into a nut with 1/4-20 Imperial threads but needing a metric wrench.


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## istracpsboss (Sep 14, 2008)

papawd said:


> I still use both sometimes it is easier to read the metric lines and why,WHY,oh WHY do they put metric and english bolts and nuts on the same equipment ... Settle on one or the other


I've got works drawings of German Wartime Kriegsloks. Whilst most of them are in metric, certain critical fasteners are BSW, as the threadform is stronger. Drawings from later in the war show all metric. I suspect the BSW fasteners may have been from a single source that was destroyed.

Cheers

Peter


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## istracpsboss (Sep 14, 2008)

BigJimAK said:


> I hear ya there, Warren.. What *really* got me the other day was when I ran into a nut with 1/4-20 Imperial threads but needing a metric wrench.


I've seen that before, usually when a smaller head than standard was wanted for cosmetic or access purposes.

Cheers

Peter


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

istracpsboss said:


> I've got works drawings of German Wartime Kriegsloks. Whilst most of them are in metric, certain critical fasteners are BSW, as the threadform is stronger. Drawings from later in the war show all metric. I suspect the BSW fasteners may have been from a single source that was destroyed.


Some years back in the 1980s I did some work for a German engineering tool manufacturer who supplied hand tool kits for engineering staff maintaining aircraft engines and tank engines and, you've probably guessed it, the kits included a small number of Whitworth wrenches. When I queried this I was told that certain critical components in jet turbine engines still used Whitworth threads for strength - and that there was a DIN (Deutsches Institut für Normung) standard to cover these Imperial size Whitworth threads.

Phil


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## derek willis (Jan 21, 2009)

Yesterday we re-roofed my conservatory, when fitting the edge trims, I actually called out to my mate, "872mm. x 1 1/2" not my usual way as I use metric all the time, it just happened to read that way.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

When I started this thread (metric of course) a year ago I never dreamt that there would be over eleven thousand views, could this be some sort of record?


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## Grumpy Old Tom (Feb 25, 2011)

*So now we're adding Whitworth to the mix!*



Phil P said:


> Some years back in the 1980s I did some work for a German engineering tool manufacturer who supplied hand tool kits for engineering staff maintaining aircraft engines and tank engines and, you've probably guessed it, the kits included a small number of Whitworth wrenches. When I queried this I was told that certain critical components in jet turbine engines still used Whitworth threads for strength - and that there was a DIN (Deutsches Institut für Normung) standard to cover these Imperial size Whitworth threads.
> 
> Phil


At work, we use Whitworth threads as well for high-stress radial studs. The rounded thread form gives lower stress concentration factors. But since these are custom-machined, studs, we can use an imperial-sized hex head on them. I once worked with an accomplished British engineer who told me that in his mechanic days they had THREE sets of tools - metric, imperial, and British/Whitworth!

Yes, Harry, just get a metric/imperial "pond war" going and you're bound to generate a lot of views. Interesting that this thread, as you say, is probably the number one in views for this site!

Best,

Tom


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## Ralph Barker (Dec 15, 2008)

harrysin said:


> When I started this thread (metric of course) a year ago I never dreamt that there would be over eleven thousand views, *could this be some sort of record?*


Perhaps. I suspect I'm not the only one whose intent was to push the thread to a record by contributing thoughts. 

On the old Fine Woodworking Knots forum, there was a thread that reached over 5,000 posts, so we have a way to go.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

5000 posts Ralph, I'll have to dream up something really controversial to beat that! Of course I have to bear in mind that Mark doesn't miss a thing, his hand is always on the plug, ready to pull it at a moments notice.


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## Ralph Barker (Dec 15, 2008)

harrysin said:


> 5000 posts Ralph, I'll have to dream up something really controversial to beat that! Of course I have to bear in mind that Mark doesn't miss a thing, his hand is always on the plug, ready to pull it at a moments notice.


To be fair, Harry, very few of the posts on the Knots thread were actually on-topic. It simply became a catch-all thread for random thoughts, conversations, and jokes - all intended to rack up the numbers. The "plug" probably should have been pulled there after the 4th or 5th post. Knots was never particularly well-moderated. Taunton has never really understood the concept of Web forums.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Thanks for that further info. Ralph, I feel better now!


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## Ralph Barker (Dec 15, 2008)

No problem, Harry. We'll just keep this thread in.., er, I mean mm-ing along. :dance3:


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## GTVi (May 14, 2010)

Because I do a lot of work on modern cars these days (in Australia), I must admit imperial measurements are non existent. I've "archived" all of my imperial sockets and spanners, haven't found any use for them in the last 10 years.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

My lawn mower and edging machines, both over 30 years since I bought them use Whitworth nuts and bolts, also my English Myford metal lathe made in 1947 uses Whitworth
threads.


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## Lemuzz (Jul 25, 2008)

harrysin said:


> When I started this thread (metric of course) a year ago I never dreamt that there would be over eleven thousand views, could this be some sort of record?


The funny thing is that the supporters of metric are actually the people who have already changed from imperial, and can see the advantages of the much simpler metric system.:cray:


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## GTVi (May 14, 2010)

harrysin said:


> My lawn mower and edging machines, both over 30 years since I bought them use Whitworth nuts and bolts, also my English Myford metal lathe made in 1947 uses Whitworth
> threads.


30 years and still going...you must admit they don't make them like that anymore. Although my lawn mower is 15yrs and still going strong, in that time, Ive gone though my fair share of whipper snippers.



Lemuzz said:


> The funny thing is that the supporters of metric are actually the people who have already changed from imperial, and can see the advantages of the much simpler metric system.:cray:


I too noticed that correlation. :dance3:


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Yep, the lawn mower has it's original motor but I had to replace the motor about three years ago on the edger because my neighbour, allegedly an intelligent man, borrowed it and used it as a turf cutter! My new rotary mower for occasional use has an American made Briggs and Stratton motor that requires Ether to get it started, I haven't yet checked what threads it uses.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Harry

Think astro turf, I have been trying to talk my Boss into it for the last 3 years, I thing it comes in the Metric size as well  right up you alley so to speak..


======



harrysin said:


> Yep, the lawn mower has it's original motor but I had to replace the motor about three years ago on the edger because my neighbour, allegedly an intelligent man, borrowed it and used it as a turf cutter! My new rotary mower for occasional use has an American made Briggs and Stratton motor that requires Ether to get it started, I haven't yet checked what threads it uses.


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## Grumpy Old Tom (Feb 25, 2011)

*Briggs & Stratton?*

I own the best lawn mower in the world. It is a 19" [483mm] Sensation Professional (company long since out of business) with a 3.5 HP [2.61 kW] Briggs & Stratton old-style motor. It definitely uses Imperial fasteners! And it never needs ether to start, Harry, though since I purchased it in 1980 I've had 3 motors on it. Yes, it gets abused.

This mower is a monster. It's not the thing if you need to bag your clippings, but in my area with all the hills, it's an unstoppable beast. It has 8" [203 mm] dia. wheels on ball bearings, and the handle is mid-frame mounted so that it can swing over and thus you can push from either side. When you're on a hill, this is great- I have a fairly steep one behind my house and you don't have to turn the mower around at the end of the row, you just flip the handle over, and I can keep the grass chute pointed away from the house.

With the grass chute coming off the back (or front, I guess) at a 45° angle, you get minimum mower width and the ability to trim close on 3 sides of the mower. A slight home modification allows the handle to lay all the way down when you have the chute pointed away from you, which is great for reaching down over embankments, etc. It has a scalp plate and a 3/16" [4.76 mm] thick by 2-1/2" [63.5 mm] blade. I think all that inertia under there is what enables the thing to hit a tough patch of weeds or brush and just throw it out like a combine harvester!

You couldn't buy one like this in the US today, with the safety requirements, dead man levers, and what not. I always wear steel toes and safety glasses when using it. But I love it - I even have drawings made so when the housing goes I can have a welder friend make me a new one.

As you can see, I'll use about any excuse to talk about my favorite mower! (I also have a conventional bagger for near the house and a 60" belly mower on the tractor).

Oh, and to continue on topic, I have learned both metric and Imperial and prefer Imperial for woodworking.

Best,

Tom


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

bobj3 said:


> Hi Harry
> 
> Think astro turf, I have been trying to talk my Boss into it for the last 3 years, I thing it comes in the Metric size as well  right up you alley so to speak..
> 
> ...


Most lawn bowling clubs over here now use Astro turf Bob and because of acute water shortage, it's becoming more common for domestic use, in fact Marlene has already suggested it, I'm thinking about it!


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

I hate to Brag Tom, but mine is bigger than yours! It's a 20" power driven reel mower made by Scott Bonnar and has it's original 6.3h.p. Kirby motor that starts first pull every time


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## Ralph Barker (Dec 15, 2008)

I like the idea of metric Astro Turf. But, wouldn't that require metric feet to walk on the turf? Then, there's the question of whether "metric feet" would cause some sort of space-time-continuum paradox, with disastrous results.


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## jschaben (Jun 21, 2009)

Ralph Barker said:


> I like the idea of metric Astro Turf. But, wouldn't that require metric feet to walk on the turf? Then, there's the question of whether "metric feet" would cause some sort of space-time-continuum paradox, with disastrous results.


:lol::lol::no:


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## Grumpy Old Tom (Feb 25, 2011)

harrysin said:


> I hate to Brag Tom, but mine is bigger than yours! It's a 20" power driven reel mower made by Scott Bonnar and has it's original 6.3h.p. Kirby motor that starts first pull every time


Aw, but that's just me little one, mate! Didja not see I have a 60" [1.5 m] belly mower on me tractor (an 18 Hp [13.4 kW], 4 wheel drive New Holland diesel)! 

A power driven reel mower sounds interesting, though!

Best,

Tom

ETA: metric feet... LOL


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## derek willis (Jan 21, 2009)

This thread seems to be developing into a pee up the wall contest, it's always the bigger boys that win.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi

I can still write my 1st. name on the wall at 3ft high but only one time but not in Metric.. LOL
Metric = dot,dot,dot,dot dot etc. not in little lines 

==========


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

derek willis said:


> This thread seems to be developing into a pee up the wall contest, it's always the bigger boys that win.


Derek,

I think Harry started that, about 375 posts ago!!


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## derek willis (Jan 21, 2009)

BigJimAK said:


> Derek,
> 
> I think Harry started that, about 375 posts ago!!


Quite so, and he's noticeably quiet.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

It breaks the boredom Derek. Every now and then the forum gets a bit stale. There's no contest with Tom, he wins hands down.
In any case, the more that the word "metric" is mentioned the more likelihood there is of it becoming part of the American language!


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi

" part of the American language" 
It's part of my language in the states, every time I run into it I say some more of the Metric crap again..now let me see do I need a 1/2" wrench/socket or a 13 mm one.. 

=========


========


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## derek willis (Jan 21, 2009)

harrysin said:


> It breaks the boredom Derek. Every now and then the forum gets a bit stale. There's no contest with Tom, he wins hands down.
> In any case, the more that the word "metric" is mentioned the more likelihood there is of it becoming part of the American language!


Harry,
Pigs might fly, not in this century.


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Derek, it may surprise you to know that those of us who build machines or work in the auto industry have been using metric stuff for many years. Metric bits and collets are starting to show up as "available" but not stocked.


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

LMAO... You're right there, Derek!! Not without a pigapult... er, catapult!!


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

Mike's right, Derek.. Clear through elementary, high school and on through my college days.. you, know... B.C. (Before Computer)... we had to do our calculations in Metric as well as Imperial.. since "Metric's coming". Well, it's now been 45 years since grade school....

If the U.S. government *really* wanted the masses to accept the metric system they'd focus the elementary school training on learning the conversions and the simple math to make approximate conversions on the fly.. you know, simple math.

Stuff like, since 1" = 25.4mm which is approximately 25 and 25 = 100 / 4, to convert from inches to millimeters, divide by four and multiply by 100.

A liter is 61 cubic inches, but 60 give you a good working approximation. This makes BJ's 454ci Chevy big block about 7.5 liters. In other words, with 8 cylinders, each of those pistons displaces almost a liter.

Working the other way, the 1.5L "rice ricket" is about 90 ci.

An fluid ounce is about 29.6 ml (about 30). For a 12 oz pop can, 12 x 30 is 360ml. The "technical" answer may be 355 it's pretty close.

I think this is the kind of thing that really helps Imperial" people "think metric".. at least it sure helps me!!


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## derek willis (Jan 21, 2009)

Mike and Jim,
You surely can keep secrets over there then.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

One of these days my old mate Bj is going to swallow his pride and admit that he is fully conversant with the metric system, in fact I'm convinced that he is at home with either system.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Harry

You are a Very Sharp old fart......you don't miss much ....

======



harrysin said:


> One of these days my old mate Bj is going to swallow his pride and admit that he is fully conversant with the metric system, in fact I'm convinced that he is at home with either system.


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

BJ, "Old Fart" is not politically correct. Make that "Highly Experienced Flatulence Dispersal Engineer!" :jester:


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

"Highly Experienced Flatulence Dispersal Engineer!" 

ROFLMFAO!!!


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## derek willis (Jan 21, 2009)

Mike said:


> BJ, "Old Fart" is not politically correct. Make that "Highly Experienced Flatulence Dispersal Engineer!" :jester:


Now you are giving an accurate description of me, 'though I can't see how you'd know with me so far away, surely it doesn't spread that far.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Mike said:


> BJ, "Old Fart" is not politically correct. Make that "Highly Experienced Flatulence Dispersal Engineer!" :jester:


Mike, since when has Bj bothered about being politically correct, whatever he says, irrespective of the spelling, we all fully understand, no ambiguity, and his sense of humour can be so subtle.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Harry

What sense of humour. I just tell it like it is  YOF....

=====



harrysin said:


> Mike, since when has Bj bothered about being politically correct, whatever he says, irrespective of the spelling, we all fully understand, no ambiguity, and his sense of humour can be so subtle.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

From time to time you say it as it is with with a careful selection of words in both posts and emails that surprise and make me smile.


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## CarpenterMan123 (Jun 7, 2010)

mftha said:


> 1 nanometer is roughly ten atomic diameters; DNA is 20 nanometers diameter. Magnification is required to see anything much smaller than 100 micrometers. A typical bacterial cell is 1 micrometer in diameter while a typical human cell is generally taken to be 10 to 20 micrometers diameter.
> 
> 
> 
> In what kind of work, other than the cell and molecule work I mentioned, would 1 millimeter be considered large?


I wouldn't be too happy if my miters had a gap this large, but what comes to mind as much more important are the bearing clearances in an automobile engine where a tenth of a m/m is more realistic.


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## NoChatter (Dec 4, 2010)

Knothead47 said:


> What's really bad is to have a car that has both metric and SAE fasteners on it. I had a 1986 Buick and couldn't figure out why the socket didn't fit the oil drain properly. Found out it was 16 mm. Ever try to find a 16 mm socket? Sets jump from 15 to 17! Finally found one at a surplus store. Fit perfectly. Sold car, still have socket JIC (just in case).
> Harry, I know what you mean but the metric/English system has been debated since the hills were built. Maybe one of these days..........?


16mm is = to 5/8"

The US lost a Mars probe because it was built in Imperial, but metric was used for weight. Calculations got all screwed up, so it crashed/burned up.


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## Grumpy Old Tom (Feb 25, 2011)

It's probably already been mentioned, but a much more serious potential loss occurred when the Gimli Glider was fueled using an Imperial fuel density instead of metric, resulting in less than half the fuel it needed being placed into the tanks.

Like the more recent ditching on the Hudson, the captain of the Gimli Glider was also an accomplished glider pilot; still, the only runway that he was able to reach had activities on it at the time, and folks were quite surprised to see a 200+ passenger wide body airliner descending near silently out of the afternoon sky. It's approaching miracle status that the only injuries in the air or on the ground were minor, and no lives were lost.

If they just hadn't switched from Imperial measurements... :jester:

Best to all,

Tom


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

NoChatter said:


> 16mm is = to 5/8"
> 
> The US lost a Mars probe because it was built in Imperial, but metric was used for weight. Calculations got all screwed up, so it crashed/burned up.


I know that I'm being pedantic, but 5/8" actually = 15.875mm!


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

harrysin said:


> I know that I'm being pedantic, but 5/8" actually = 15.875mm!


Harry; what he meant was that a 16mm socket was basically the same as a 5/8 socket, for all intents it'd work fine...not so sure about the reverse however.

I find that I often have to resort to metric sockets when using hot galvanized bolts (Imperial sized) as the heads are slightly larger. It's either that or a long session with a crescent wrench...:sad:


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi

I'm a old gear head, 5/8" and 3/4" are just that 15 mm and 16 mm are just that if you use 16mm tool on a 5/8 bolt/nut it round it off in short order.. 


===


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## Grumpy Old Tom (Feb 25, 2011)

Yeah, but 19 mm and 3/4 are so close (19 mm = 0.748") that I've used it frequently when I need a good, tight fit on 3/4" hex head!


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Tom

True  
At one time I sold Snap-On tools If I tried to sub a 3/4 socket or wrench for a 19mm it would not fly for most GEAR heads.

With all the junk bolts now coming out..China,etc. it's always a long shot what will fit.. 

Just a note they don't hot dip Galvanized the run mill bolts only on fence hardware the norm.. 


====


===



Grumpy Old Tom said:


> Yeah, but 19 mm and 3/4 are so close (19 mm = 0.748") that I've used it frequently when I need a good, tight fit on 3/4" hex head!


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

"Just a note they don't hot dip Galvanized the run mill bolts only on fence hardware the norm.."
Sorry, I wasn't clear on what you meant Bob(?). My selection up here is, I'm pretty sure, all from China. As you mentioned, it's a crap shoot whether any particular socket will fit...especially on HG machine bolts and lags. The HG nuts aren't as much of an issue.
The plated lags and m/c bolts don't seem to be a problem (or at least it's negligible).


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

If a spanner or socket fits without sideways play then it's perfect for the job in hand, sorry Bob! Having said that, perhaps rev-heads are like Marlene describes me, PEDANTIC!


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## TRBaker (Jul 5, 2012)

Harry, you've convinced me. I went out today and bought a set of metric crescent wrenches. They seem to work just fine.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

hahahahahahahaha I like it hahahahahaha

===




TRBaker said:


> Harry, you've convinced me. I went out today and bought a set of metric crescent wrenches. They seem to work just fine.


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

TRBaker said:


> Harry, you've convinced me. I went out today and bought a set of metric crescent wrenches. They seem to work just fine.


Make sure you did not get the left handed set in error......


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

trbaker said:


> harry, you've convinced me. I went out today and bought a set of metric crescent wrenches. They seem to work just fine.


i believe you troy, the screw through the worm probably has a metric thread!


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## TRBaker (Jul 5, 2012)

Lolololol


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## argoknot (Dec 7, 2009)

harrysin said:


> I haven't ever seen callipers, dial or digital, which read eighths, sixteenths or thirty seconds, all the imperial ones that I have are in tenths, hundredths and thousandths of an inch but guides and cutters are not. I agree that normally in woodworking, a 32nd" is neither here nor there but in routing it sometimes is. An example being a routed box with a lid that is a good fit into it, here, in order to get accuracy, I often mix metric and imperial guides/cutters.


They're out there. I have a digital caliper that measures inches, millimeters, and fractions. Accuracy: +/- 0.001" +/- 0.02mm.


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## GulfcoastGuy (Feb 27, 2012)

Got a 6" set from HF 
6" Digital Caliper with Metric and SAE Fractional Readings

.0005 inch, .02 mm, 1/128 inch resolution.

Checked out fine on my feeler gauges.

GCG


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

The last 3 times I bought replacement bearings for old imperial sized bearings (some over 40 years old) I noticed that the the salesmen measured the bearings as metric instead of in thousands. And it was a US based and manufactured bulk bearing manufacturer/supplier.

Makes me wonder if a metric changeover might happen here. We've had, what, 40 or so years of practice and preparation for it?


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

MAFoElffen said:


> The last 3 times I bought replacement bearings for old imperial sized bearings (some over 40 years old) I noticed that the the salesmen measured the bearings as metric instead of in thousands. And it was a US based and manufactured bulk bearing manufacturer/supplier.
> 
> Makes me wonder if a metric changeover might happen here. We've had, what, 40 or so years of practice and preparation for it?


It's not a question of if, it's a question of when Mike.


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

*If or when....*



MAFoElffen said:


> The last 3 times I bought replacement bearings for old imperial sized bearings (some over 40 years old) I noticed that the the salesmen measured the bearings as metric instead of in thousands. And it was a US based and manufactured bulk bearing manufacturer/supplier.
> 
> Makes me wonder if a metric changeover might happen here. We've had, what, 40 or so years of practice and preparation for it?



I think USA has already gone metric. They just don't want to tell the public......

:jester:


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

I agree James, I receive regular mail-outs from America and more and more I'm seeing metric mentioned, and not before time!


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## Lemuzz (Jul 25, 2008)

MAFoElffen said:


> The last 3 times I bought replacement bearings for old imperial sized bearings (some over 40 years old) I noticed that the the salesmen measured the bearings as metric instead of in thousands. And it was a US based and manufactured bulk bearing manufacturer/supplier.
> 
> Makes me wonder if a metric changeover might happen here. We've had, what, 40 or so years of practice and preparation for it?


 As an engineer I have been "metricated" for 35 years. I still use imperial measurements often as some countries are still imperial as is much older equipment. However that is not a problem with dual scale measuring equipment and machine scales, however for precision work, I zero my verniers or micrometer (in metrics) on the shaft or internal size then measure the object. This gives the amount to remove then simply work back to zero. So it makes no difference it it is metric or imperial as zero is the only number that matters. :bad:If the salesman measured in metrics he would be confirming if they were metric or imperial as they do not "cross over" as their tolerance is too close for that to happen I was told long ago that more than 90% of bearings world wide are made in Japan. Even SKF and Timken. Metric bearings are considerably cheaper than similar sized imperial due the much larger volumes made, so machine manufacturers opt for metric as a cost saving measure


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## Lemuzz (Jul 25, 2008)

BigJimAK said:


> Mike's right, Derek.. Clear through elementary, high school and on through my college days.. you, know... B.C. (Before Computer)... we had to do our calculations in Metric as well as Imperial.. since "Metric's coming". Well, it's now been 45 years since grade school....
> 
> If the U.S. government *really* wanted the masses to accept the metric system they'd focus the elementary school training on learning the conversions and the simple math to make approximate conversions on the fly.. you know, simple math.
> 
> ...



Right on the button. In most situations there is a simple conversion which comes naturally after a short time. Like a pint of milk is similar to 1 litre or a 4" nail equals 100mm a sheet of wallboard 8X4 equals 2400X1200.:agree::agree:


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Hi Murray



Lemuzz said:


> Right on the button. In most situations there is a simple conversion which comes naturally after a short time. Like a pint of milk is similar to 1 litre


:fie: Actually there are 4.5 litres per gallon, so a pint of milk is about 10% over 1/2 litre....



Lemuzz said:


> a sheet of wallboard 8X4 equals 2400X1200.


That's one where you need to be careful - in the UK and Europe plasterboard (sheetrock) suppliers metricated many years back with "8 x 4ft" sheets becoming 2400 x 1200mm - for those you stud out on 300, 400 and 600mm centres HOWEVER plywood manufacturers have stuck with "real" 8 x 4ft sheets at 2440 x 1220mm. Important to know when plywood cladding stud, etc where the centres are 12in (approx. 305mm), 16in (approx 406mm) and 2ft (approx 610mm). 

There are many cases where approximations work well - some where they are disasterous. One needs to be mindful of those differences

Regards

Phil


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## Harrison67 (May 30, 2012)

jlord said:


> Not to mention material sizes like 4/4 (four quarter) which starts out as 1" rough sawn but is closer to 13/16" after both sides have surfaced & still labeled 4/4. How about 1x material that actually measures 3/4". It can get pretty confusing.




Totally agree with this.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

I wonder why I wasn't surprised a few days ago when I read that America is the only industrialised country that isn't fully metric.


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## roblaw55 (Jun 9, 2012)

metric system is flawed was based on a division of the earths circumference only problem being the figure they used was wrong


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Better keep this a secret otherwise America will have a reason not to completely changeover and dear old blighty might go back to rods, poles and perches!


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

harrysin said:


> Better keep this a secret otherwise America will have a reason not to completely changeover and dear old blighty might go back to rods, poles and perches!



Isn't a perch, a fish??????? Is that why they use a rod or pole....ROTFLAO.....


I guess the current method of calculating a meter is pretty accurate........

No longer has any bearing on the circumference or radius of the Earth.:no:

_



The metre (meter in US spelling), symbol m, is the base unit of length in the International System of Units (SI). Originally intended to be one ten-millionth of the distance from the Earth's equator to the North Pole (at sea level), its definition has been periodically refined to reflect growing knowledge of metrology. Since 1983, it has been defined as "the length of the path travelled by light in vacuum during a time interval of 1⁄299,792,458 of a second"

Click to expand...

_Note: International System of Units - not US System of units.....


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

I have to confess James that in the 32 years that I spent in England I never did understand rods poles or perches, I don't know about over here, but all school notebooks in England had such measurements inside the covers.


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Wow Harry, I didn't know stone tablets had covers... :jester:


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Now, now Mike, this Friday, being your birthday, you are well on the way to catching up with me! Marlene and I do hope that you will enjoy the day. Unfortunately, due to distance, you won't be able to share these two gorgeous smelling date loaves that Marlene has just taken out of the oven.


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

harrysin said:


> I don't know about over here, but all school notebooks in England had such measurements inside the covers.


Same here Harry......:jester:

PS; re the cakes --- one for you and one for me,,,,,,right?


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

harrysin said:


> I have to confess James that in the 32 years that I spent in England I never did understand rods poles or perches, I don't know about over here, but all school notebooks in England had such measurements inside the covers.


Oh come on Harry it's really easy to understand.

A perch is a fresh water fish.

A rod or a pole is used to catch a perch.

How hard is that to figure out? :lol:


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Now why on earth didn't MY teachers have your ability to explain things in simple terms!


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

Probably because your teacher wasn't a simple guy like me.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Now you're being modest.


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

Harry I'm about to list my power tools on my profile. Should I list all of my power tools or just those related to woodworking? For instance I have a 1"drive pneumatic gun. Should that be listed?


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

All of them Marcel, I've listed my metal lathe, mill, cut-off saw and stick welder etc.


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## sbjforumman (Aug 30, 2012)

I'm with you 100%


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## Chris Curl (Feb 13, 2012)

here is what i find stupid:

i got this miter saw for a song but it didn't have the locking bolt for the bevel adjustment.

it is a 10mm 1.25 pitch bolt, i needed one that is 50mm long

stupid thing cost $2.39 at my local home depot. and the nuts are 83 cents EACH!

come on now .... REALLY? ridiculous.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

And the gas to _get_ there cost you $5? Now _that's_ gouging...


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## demographic (Aug 12, 2012)

I've mentioned it before but my De-Walt D26200 compact fixed base router has a metric scale on its height adjusting ring. 
The numbers go both ways round the ring and meet in the middle. Each way round (up and down the scale) stop at 6 *and a bit* mm.

Thats half a revolution being 6.35mm, or quarter of an inch and a full revolution of the adjustment ring being half an inch.

If they go to the bother of putting a metric scale onto the adjusting ring, surely its not rocket science to make the thread that it rotates on with a 10mm pitch, that way its one turn for 10mm two for 20mm height adjustment and so on.

Great little tool but I'm totally un impressed by its Half Metric adjustments.
It would have been so easy to get right and be far more user friendly.

Even having it all in inch scale would be better, I can work in either OK but to me its a half arsed measure.


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## Ben I (May 21, 2010)

I'm an American Engineer who has worked construction and home office design while living in Australia. I was there during the Australian conversion from imperial to metric.

I clearly remember a group of my carpenters gathered around their first metric blue print trying to figure out what the real (imperial) measurement were. I provided new tape measures in metric only and compelled my trades to put down their imperial tapes. The guys quickly became fans of the metric system despite the then lack of bricks, doors and windows reconfigured to rational metric sizing.

As for my personal preference -- It's metric all the way. I would guess that the greatest majority of American engineers are comfortable designing in metric units and would love to see the end of fractions.


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

harrysin said:


> All of them Marcel, I've listed my metal lathe, mill, cut-off saw and stick welder etc.


Done.


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## Chris Curl (Feb 13, 2012)

Ben in Cypress Texas said:


> I'm an American Engineer who has worked construction and home office design while living in Australia. I was there during the Australian conversion from imperial to metric.
> 
> I clearly remember a group of my carpenters gathered around their first metric blue print trying to figure out what the real (imperial) measurement were. I provided new tape measures in metric only and compelled my trades to put down their imperial tapes. The guys quickly became fans of the metric system despite the then lack of bricks, doors and windows reconfigured to rational metric sizing.
> 
> As for my personal preference -- It's metric all the way. I would guess that the greatest majority of American engineers are comfortable designing in metric units and would love to see the end of fractions.


But Ben, do you agree (or not) that the cost of the metric stuff in the US makes it a non-starter? Eventually, if (or when) the price is comparable, then I would proably choose metric because there is no question to me that it is easier to think in mutliples of 10 than in fractions.

But with how slowly the wheels of change turn, honestly, I doubt it will happen in the US in my lifetime.


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

My ninth grade science teacher told me of the soon to be change from Imperial System to the Metric System in the US. I'm fifty five now and still am waiting.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi

I will 2nd this post,it's fine for the people on the other side of the big pond but we have a system that works for us why do they want to push the metric stuff down out throat but I think it's comes down to the buck ,next thing they will want to do make us drive on the other side of the road..just let us be please unless you want to foot the bill..for the switch over..that would bankrupt most counties..I would think.. 


==



Chris Curl said:


> But Ben, do you agree (or not) that the cost of the metric stuff in the US makes it a non-starter? Eventually, if (or when) the price is comparable, then I would proably choose metric because there is no question to me that it is easier to think in mutliples of 10 than in fractions.
> 
> But with how slowly the wheels of change turn, honestly, I doubt it will happen in the US in my lifetime.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Marcel M said:


> Done.


Quite a collection Marcel, many members will be drooling.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

bobj3 said:


> Hi
> 
> I will 2nd this post,it's fine for the people on the other side of the big pond but we have a system that works for us why do they want to push the metric stuff down out throat but I think it's comes down to the buck ,next thing they will want to do make us drive on the other side of the road..just let us be please unless you want to foot the bill..for the switch over..that would bankrupt most counties..I would think..
> 
> ...


That reminds me of the Aussie who wouldn't connect to the deep sewerage when it was put through his suburb, he is alleged to have said about his septic system " it was good enough for my father so it's good enough for me", Think about it!


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## Sleeper (Sep 5, 2012)

Hi ya's..On my Chevy truck (1988) one alterantor bolt was metric and the other imperial..only drug dealers do grams in the USA and in the UK I get 4x2's x 2.4 meters ( or 7 feet 10 31⁄64 inches....)..why they call them 4x2's and not 2x4's....


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Sleeper said:


> why they call them 4x2's and not 2x4's....


Because the trade convention here is normally to refer to the largest size first - except for cross-grained sheet materials where 4 x 8 (ft) would indicate a cross-grained sheet. The sizes of planed timber are more correctly referred to as "EX-3 x 2in" and not 3 x 2in - "EX-" indicates the original size of the raw sawn and kilned timber from which planed stock is machined. We all know that the result is metric, but there is no absolute standard size for the finished stock.......

Regards

Phil


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

bobj3 said:


> we have a system that works for us why do they want to push the metric stuff down out throat but I think it's comes down to the buck ,next thing they will want to do make us drive on the other side of the road..


Hi Bob

Much of large engineering industry in the USA is already pretty much metricated because that' the way the rest of the world has gone. If you can't see the advantages then fine, we're not trying to force you. We are trying to point out how much easier (and therefore potentially more accurate) metric calculations are than messing about with fractions. I was educated in both systems so I can and do work in both, but metric is much, much simpler and faster

Regards

Phil


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Phil

Is that right,,,most of the plans and woodworking books I buy in the states are in the imperial way and I hope it stays that way..if the Metric works for you that's fine use it but NOT me..if I can help it..after all I'm working with wood and a 1/64" is just fine for me..imperial way is easy for me because that's where I'm at,,,Good Old USA..if I was on your side on the pond I would use the Metric way too because that is the standard..  just like driving on the wrong side of the road..  

"It's fine to disagree with other members as long as you respect their opinions"

===



Phil P said:


> Hi Bob
> 
> Much of large engineering industry in the USA is already pretty much metricated because that' the way the rest of the world has gone. If you can't see the advantages then fine, we're not trying to force you. We are trying to point out how much easier (and therefore potentially more accurate) metric calculations are than messing about with fractions. I was educated in both systems so I can and do work in both, but metric is much, much simpler and faster
> 
> ...


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## Grumpy Old Tom (Feb 25, 2011)

Wow. I'm in power engineering and we are nowhere close to fully metricated. Oh, yes, kilowatts & kilovars & such yes for big generators, but still most other motors are in HP, and I seldom work from metric prints. One of the funniest things (that I posted back aways) is that my highly accomplished boss (6 patents, published, etc) prefers heat transfer units of Watts/inch-°C!

I like fractions myself. Imperial is just comfortable. Like someone else said, I was taught largely in metric in college, esp in my '85 - '87 stint, but we're nowhere close to adopting it fully here.

But it's nothing I get really exercised about, thought the alternator stud on my daughters' Berettas (yes, both daughters had the same car...) that was metric on one end and English on the other was not funny at the time! I can do metric, I can do English, and when I get down to joinery tolerances I'm often in decimals (mils) anyway!

Best to all,

Tom

(who has been terribly busy lately...)


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

bobj3 said:


> Good Old USA..if I was on your side on the pond I would use the Metric way too because that is the standard..  just like driving on the wrong side of the road..


Now then, Bob, you know that there is no right or wrong side to the road. But we Brits (and also the Japanese, Chinese, most Africans, Indians, Australians, New Zealanders, etc) drive on the left side of the road - not the wrong side. Much easier to draw ones' sword to deal with varlets that way....... The logic is indisputable.

Regards

Phil


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## Chris Curl (Feb 13, 2012)

Heh, there is a monty python image for ya ... jousting in cars!

I've been driving on the right side for so long, I'm sure it would take a long time before driving on the left side felt correct.


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

Phil P said:


> ....... Much easier to draw ones' sword to deal with varlets that way....... The logic is indisputable.


Now that explains why we in the US drive on the right side of the road. We have no varlets! We only have varmints and they are more easily struck while driving on the right side......and indeed our varmints are quite militant.


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## Donald R Smith (Sep 1, 2012)

The building trade went over to metric about 1967. Imperial is not user-friendly! About as useless as calipers and rules marked off in tenths of an inch!


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Chris Curl said:


> I've been driving on the right side for so long, I'm sure it would take a long time before driving on the left side felt correct.


Actually Chris, having in the past worked in a job where I regularly drove in Europe (where they drive to the right) and then came back to the UK (which drives on the left) I found little problem in making the switch _except_ when starting a journey at night when there was no traffic on the roads - then I had to think for a minute where I was to avoid driving on the incorrect side. It always took me a week or so to mentally switch sides automatically, so I used to have a piece of masking tape with "DRIVE ON THE LEFT" or "DRIVE ON THE RIGHT" stuck on the dash of the car. The language on signs wasn't a help either as I'm at home with signs in several languages...... the biggest bugbear when switching from right hand drive to left hand drive (or vice versa) was my occassional tendency to attempt changing gear with the window winder...... :blink: (we have stick shifts over here)

Regards

Phil


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## reuelt (Dec 29, 2008)

Sorry
But the metric system is NOT smarter at all.
e.g. 
1. In woodworking, many people are unhappy with a tape measure that has both cm & mm. It's confusing. It seems the only popular tape measure is the tape measure labelled in 0-8,000mm.
So the mm is becoming the "stardard" (not the cm nor dm nor m).
VERY FUNNY
Do we have to use the dollar & milli-dollar (1/10 cents) to satisfy the "critics of the Imperial measurements"?


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Where on earth do you get your information from Reuelt?


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## JCJCJC (May 15, 2012)

Phil P said:


> Now then, Bob, you know that there is no right or wrong side to the road. But we Brits (and also the Japanese, Chinese, most Africans, Indians, Australians, New Zealanders, etc) drive on the left side of the road - not the wrong side. Much easier to draw ones' sword to deal with varlets that way....... The logic is indisputable.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Phil



Well, here in Ireland we usually drive in the middle ;-)


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

harrysin said:


> Where on earth do you get your information from Reuelt?


Reuelt has a wonderful imagination. :yes4:


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

JCJCJC said:


> Well, here in Ireland we usually drive in the middle ;-)


This could be why.


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## JCJCJC (May 15, 2012)

Marcel M said:


> This could be why.


there are a lot more than that, not to mention the breweries as well, and the micro-breweries after that!


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

JCJCJC said:


> there are a lot more than that, not to mention the breweries as well, and the micro-breweries after that!


That was just a small tasting of breweries in Ireland. :jester:


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

JCJCJC said:


> Well, here in Ireland we usually drive in the middle ;-)


I know, John - especially those buses with the red setter down the sides (Bus Éireann?) - they seem to have had just two speeds, dead slow and get outta tha way! A few years since I was over in your part of the world, but I vividly remember that the inter-city services always used to drive a deal faster than I did (i was always yoo concerned about getting "nailed" by the "Guards")

Regards

Phil


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## reuelt (Dec 29, 2008)

*Understanding the brilliance of 51/64" template guide*

I think it is used for inlay.
Just like a rod cannot fit a washer if both OD of rod and ID of washer are of EXACTLY the same diameter, the 51/64" template guide is probably used to make the male part slightly smaller for perfect fitting inlays.
Please let me illustrate:-
1/8"=2/16"=4/32"=8/64"
5/8"=10/16"=20/32"=40/64"

If we use a 1/8" bit with a 51/64" template guide bushing to cut the female recess, displacement is 1/2* (51/64-8/64) = 21.5/64"

Now use a 1/8" bit in a 5/8" template guide bushing to cut the male inlay.

Displacement will be 4/64" + 20/64" = 24/64"

That means that the inlay part will be is slightly smaller than the female recess by 24/64-21.5/64" = 2.5/64"
How about an Inlay that drops into female recess perfectly??.

(Remember 2.5/64" is just slightly less than 1mm)


I think you can also get similar results with a 1/4" bit, a 51/64" bushing and a 3/8" bushing.
(remember 1/4"=16/64", 3/8"=24/64")

The Porter Cable IMPERIAL GUIDE BUSHING SET is brilliantly designed.



Reuel


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

In my humble opinion 51/64" is interchangeable with 20mm, there only being a difference of 0.16mm, barely more than the thickness of a sheet of paper, in woodworking terms, of little consequence.


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Hmm, Reuel

So you have to reduce everything to a common denominator before doing the arithmetc then possibly have to reconvert to the lowest common denominator. Too much room fr error there. I'll stick with metric, thanks!

Regards

Phil


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

reuelt said:


> I think it is used for inlay.
> Just like a rod cannot fit a washer if both OD of rod and ID of washer are of EXACTLY the same diameter, the 51/64" template guide is probably used to make the male part slightly smaller for perfect fitting inlays.
> Please let me illustrate:-
> 1/8"=2/16"=4/32"=8/64"
> ...


Wow, that's a lot of work Reuel. You need this: 51/64 =0.7969=20.2406 MM

http://www.hamuniverse.com/antfrac.html


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## reuelt (Dec 29, 2008)

*cm, dm has been rejected*



harrysin said:


> Where on earth do you get your information from Reuelt?


In the market place in Australia.

Metric system (mm, cm, dm, m) is confusing, error prone, waste more materials & time - in fact useless for woodworking.
The 100% "mm system" is taking over in Australia - see pictures

What is the size of that stove? 900mm x 600mm x 654mm. That is how we talk! cm and dm and m are not even in the conversation. 


The Australian Building and Construction Advisory Committee policy:
The metric units for linear measurement in building and construction will be the metre (m)
and the millimetre (mm), with the kilometre (km) being used where required. This will
apply to all sectors of the industry, and the centimetre (cm) shall not be used. *
With these words the Australian Building and Construction Advisory Committee effectively
banished centimetres from the building trades in Australia. They made it clear that the centimetre should generally not be used, and in particular:
… the centimetre should not be used in any calculation and it should never be written down.
*
*Standards Association of Australia 'Metric Handbook, Metric Conversion in Building and Construction 1972


Regards


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## reuelt (Dec 29, 2008)

Marcel M said:


> Wow, that's a lot of work Reuel. You need this: 51/64 =0.7969=20.2406 MM
> 
> FRACTION TO DECIMAL AND MM TABLE


Hardly as I do not even need a calculator - unlike most people using the metric system.

imperial system also trains good character - we are precise. 
1/16 is exactly 1/2 of 1/8.
In the metric system you must be always rounding, rounding & rounding - sort of saying you have rejected being precise.


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

IMHO, we are getting ridiculously pedantic about how we work with wood.

If I start a project using ["], I do so all the way through the project. If I start using [mm], then I continue to use mm. 

No problems....end of story.

Some of these posts [all through the forum, not this thread in particular] are getting like a group of guys at the pub, where one will not shut up because he just wants to hear his own voice..... 'nuf said.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

!...did I just hear somebody mention the pub?!


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## TRN_Diesel (Feb 24, 2009)

I am in! I will take a 355 ml beer or a pint if that doesn't work.


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

DaninVan said:


> !...did I just hear somebody mention the pub?!


Dan and TRN....

Could you find your way to the pub, with your weather this time of year...LOL
We Aussies like our beer cold, but not that cold.....

Schooners all 'round, thanks.


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

DaninVan said:


> !...did I just hear somebody mention the pub?!


 I'm in!!!


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## reuelt (Dec 29, 2008)

*Trouble with the Metric System - interesting read*

Pushers of metric system should read:-

Trouble with the Metric System


"mm" system is being adopted because the full "metric system" has failed to work.


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## AndyL (Jun 3, 2011)

reuelt said:


> Pushers of metric system should read:-
> 
> Trouble with the Metric System


It's an interesting view. But is, say, 1195mm really harder to remember than 3' 11 1/16"?

The author does also fall into the common trap of thinking that converting round imperial measurements into inconvenient metric equivalents somehow demonstrates the inferiority of the latter system; when the reverse can equally be "demonstrated". A 4'x8' sheet of plywood is an inconvenient 1219mm x 2438mm, but a 1.5m x 3m sheet of plywood is an equally inconvenient 4' 11 1/16" by 9' 10 1/4". Neither demonstrates that a particular system is better, just that they're not interchangeable.

The continued use of 1000 feet as the division between aviation flight levels is another interesting example raised in the article. The author uses it as an illustration of the superiority of the foot for that purpose, but you could equally draw the lesson that it's easier to work with measurements based on powers of 10.


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

reuelt said:


> Pushers of metric system should read:-
> 
> Trouble with the Metric System


Teachers? You know what Oscar Wilde (I think) said about them! Here you have an article written by someone who rarely measures anything significant (or any significant number of times in a day) in his everyday life discussing a subject he seems to have little real grasp of, at least not in the real world that I and many other tradesmen inhabit. If he did he wouldn't have made such a ridiculous statement as, "_For us here in the states, a good example of this problem is a typical sheet of plywood. WE would say it is 4x8, meaning 4-foot by 8-foot. Simple. In metric notation this would be 1219.2mm by 2438.4mm. Even if rounded off to 1220 by 2440 you can begin to see the problem developing_". Even there he plainly doesn't understand the convention of putting the "along the grain" measurement first, so *8* x 4ft. It is plain to even the lowest of intelligence on a construction site (and that can be pretty low, believe me) that you firstly cannot accurately measure the 0.2mm over a distance such as 2.44 metres with the equipment at hand, to whit a tape, and that in any case it just isn't significant _in that context_. Were we talking about wing panels in CNC-machined carbon fibre for a Lightening II jet aircraft then it might well be relevant, but plywood? :blink::blink: C'mon guys, get real!

One thing I will make clear is that metric drawings of sheds and the like where the draughtsman has used metric dimensions through out are often clearer and easier to follow than Imperial size drawings, at least for me, because logical spacings such as "300mm on centres" and not 304.8mm or even 305mm (conversions of 12inch to metric) get used. In practical terms setting out in construction terms for metric is often a lot easier because setting out calculations don't require that everything is reduced to lowest common denominator - there is no possibility of error being introduced because you've converted 15/64ths wrongly. As Andy says the problems start where people convert one to the other - and introduce conversion errors into the measurements. That means I steer clear, if possible, of drawings with lots of odd sizes.

The guy writing the article then seems to have a problem remembering numbers and thinks that remembering a figure like 1364mm is more difficult than recalling 4ft 5-11/16in? Some of us less able types use offcuts and pencils for that..... That's when we've not abandoned the tape (which in any case are never _that_ accurate, be they metric. Imperial or a mixture - offer up three "identical" tapes to each other and see what I mean) and gone to the "rod" (story pole) which masons and carpenters have used since at least medieaval times - and which is more accurate than measuring as well as not requiring a tape :haha:

He then meanders on, aimlessly, to explain, so far as I can see, a complete lack of systematic approach in anything to do with construction of his shed. Perhaps if he had more practical skills he wouldn't find reading a drawing, measuring and cutting stuff such a mentally taxing occupation

It really doesn't matter to me if you measure things in inches, millimetres, vershoks or "bobs" (remember them?). I can work in almost anything (well, except for vershoks - can't get the tapes these days!) but I find it _easier, faster and more accurate_ to work in millimetres, despite having been brought-up in Imperial measurements. I still visualise some things in non-metric terms, such as overall sizes of a piece of furniture, but that is only because I was "indoctrinated" in Imperial at an early age - younger people I've worked with seem to have no difficulty visualising stuff in metric. 



reuelt said:


> "mm" system is being adopted because the full "metric system" has failed to work.


Really? Then why is it that so much of the world now uses it? If you were to spend a week working on a sliding panel saw breaking down several tonnes of sheet materials (BTW circa 20 sheets of "8x4ft" 18mm MDF to the tonne) then you'd soon understand the significance of working in metric over Imperial. Practical experience is a great teacher

Regards

Phil


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## cagenuts (May 8, 2010)

Couple of fuddy duddys who are afraid of change, even if it's for the better.

Guess what? When they die, they will be buried 1.829m below in the ground.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

"Wow, that's a lot of work Reuel. You need this: 51/64 =0.7969=20.2406 MM"

Marcel, it looks like I can no longer believe my three way digital caliper, it converted 51/64" to 20.16mm! I know, like my dear wife, you think that I like being pedantic!


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

harrysin said:


> "Wow, that's a lot of work Reuel. You need this: 51/64 =0.7969=20.2406 MM"
> 
> Marcel, it looks like I can no longer believe my three way digital caliper, it converted 51/64" to 20.16mm! I know, like my dear wife, you think that I like being pedantic!


I trust that she endeavors to persevere. Btw it's 20.240624999. Did you buy the caliper at Wal-Mart?


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## AndyL (Jun 3, 2011)

Phil P said:


> I can work in almost anything (well, except for vershoks - can't get the tapes these days!)


Phil: if Wikipedia is correct in informing me that a vershok is 1.75", otherwise known as 1U in 19" rack terminology, you might be in luck with that tape measure!
Rack Unit Measuring Tape - Packet Life


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

AndyL said:


> Phil: if Wikipedia is correct in informing me that a vershok is 1.75", otherwise known as 1U in 19" rack terminology, you might be in luck with that tape measure!
> Rack Unit Measuring Tape - Packet Life


Thanks, Andy

Next time someone gives me some drawings in those measurements, I'll bear that in mind

Regards

Phil


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## cagenuts (May 8, 2010)

AndyL said:


> Phil: if Wikipedia is correct in informing me that a vershok is 1.75", otherwise known as 1U in 19" rack terminology, you might be in luck with that tape measure!


It's pretty easy to just do the maths. Measure and then divide by approximately 45mm.

Even my 19-_voetsak_ mobile phone has a calculator.


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## reuelt (Dec 29, 2008)

AndyL said:


> It's an interesting view. But is, say, 1195mm really harder to remember than 3' 11 1/16"?
> 
> The author does also fall into the common trap of thinking that converting round imperial measurements into inconvenient metric equivalents somehow demonstrates the inferiority of the latter system; when the reverse can equally be "demonstrated". A 4'x8' sheet of plywood is an inconvenient 1219mm x 2438mm, but a 1.5m x 3m sheet of plywood is an equally inconvenient 4' 11 1/16" by 9' 10 1/4". Neither demonstrates that a particular system is better, just that they're not interchangeable.
> 
> The continued use of 1000 feet as the division between aviation flight levels is another interesting example raised in the article. The author uses it as an illustration of the superiority of the foot for that purpose, but you could equally draw the lesson that it's easier to work with measurements based on powers of 10.


1.5m x 3m sheet? - That is a strawman because such size do not exist in real-life (in Australia).

Std. Timber lengths are 1200mm, 1800mm, 2100mm, 2400mm ....
They are supposed to be 4', 6', 7', 8'...sort of renamed round mm numbers. 

1m (witout decimal point) can deceptively mean anything from 0.56m to 1.0m ROUNDED to the nearest whole number since if we are so used to rounding, rounding and rounding in the decimal system. The metric system lacks precision.
How to check if your 1m is right?
Check the "The distance travelled by light in vacuum in 1⁄299792458 of a second" - which is NOT possible to any ordinary person - so the meter definition is stupid or even immoral.

Many metric countries use the cm commonly.

Austalian use mm - at least rounding to 1mm is NOT that bad..


----------



## reuelt (Dec 29, 2008)

Phil P said:


> Really? Then why is it that so much of the world now uses it?
> 
> Phil


Is UK using cm or mm?
Australia has banned the cm & the dm.

"So much of the world" that never sent anyone to the moon.

Regards

Reuel


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## AndyL (Jun 3, 2011)

I was about to write a reply, but I think I need to ponder a little longer on the immorality of the speed of light first.


----------



## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

reuelt said:


> ..... "So much of the world" that never sent anyone to the moon.
> 
> Regards
> Reuel


Of course they have. :yes2:

http://youtu.be/63o8exNK4-Q

When Britain first, at Heaven's command
Arose from out the azure main;
This was the charter of the land,
And guardian angels sang this strain:
"Rule, Britannia! rule the waves:
"Britons never will be slaves."

The nations, not so blest as thee,
Must, in their turns, to tyrants fall;
While thou shalt flourish great and free,
The dread and envy of them all.
"Rule, Britannia! rule the waves:
"Britons never will be slaves."

Still more majestic shalt thou rise,
More dreadful, from each foreign stroke;
As the loud blast that tears the skies,
Serves but to root thy native oak.
"Rule, Britannia! rule the waves:
"Britons never will be slaves."

Thee haughty tyrants ne'er shall tame:
All their attempts to bend thee down,
Will but arouse thy generous flame;
But work their woe, and thy renown.
"Rule, Britannia! rule the waves:
"Britons never will be slaves."

To thee belongs the rural reign;
Thy cities shall with commerce shine:
All thine shall be the subject main,
And every shore it circles thine.
"Rule, Britannia! rule the waves:
"Britons never will be slaves."

The Muses, still with freedom found,
Shall to thy happy coast repair;
Blest Isle! With matchless beauty crown'd,
And manly hearts to guard the fair.
"Rule, Britannia! rule the waves:
"Britons never will be slaves."


----------



## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

reuelt said:


> 1.5m x 3m sheet? - That is a strawman because such size do not exist in real-life (in Australia).


Maybe not for you, personally , Reuel, but there is a large size sheet colloqually referred to as a "jumbo" available from many manufacturers of MFC, MDF and MF-MDF (as well as other man made sheet materials). A "jumbo" is normally around 1.5 x 2.7 to 3.1 metres and happens to be why the manufacturers of industrial sliding carraige panel saws (Martin, Altendorf, Panhans, SCM, Griggio, Cassadei, Wadkin, Robland and yes even Felder) all offer "standard" carraige lengths/strokes of 2.5 metres and *3.2 metres*. The trade in sheet products is worldwide - or has Oz somehow dropped off the world trade routes recently, and we failed to notice?

Plastics, on the other hand are much simpler. They pretty much all come in metric sizes - so 3 x 1.5 metres sheets are stock sizes in stuff like HDPE, nylon, Tufnol (phenolic plastics), etc



reuelt said:


> Std. Timber lengths are 1200mm, 1800mm, 2100mm, 2400mm ....
> They are supposed to be 4', 6', 7', 8'...sort of renamed round mm numbers.


Every market has different standards, but you'll probably find that timber sold in pack as 2.4 metres _actually is_ 2.4 metres, not 8ft. The reason why the trade started using standard size packs is, I'm told, down to the widespread move to containerised shipping in the 1970s and the consequent waste of valuable cargo space caused by shipping "randoms". You still get "randoms" in rough sawn hardwood, though



reuelt said:


> 1m (witout decimal point) can deceptively mean anything from 0.56m to 1.0m ROUNDED to the nearest whole number since if we are so used to rounding, rounding and rounding in the decimal system. The metric system lacks precision.


Surely the same would be true if you were to round in feet? The fact is that if we _metricièns_ need something more accurate we either invoke the decimal point, or use millimetres. Simple! 1.38 metres (or 1380mm) at least means something - 1.38 feet on the other hand....



reuelt said:


> How to check if your 1m is right?
> .....the meter definition is stupid or even immoral.


Errm. One could say the same for feet and inches, you know. If you want to be a pedant you could always take your metre rule to France and check it against the Prototype Metre Bar held by the _Bureau International des Poids et Mesures_. I know that it may actually be something like 0.001mm out, but if your eyes can't see it, then neither can mine. What I'd like to know is where are you going to go for your "standard" foot? Or do you just take a boot and sock off and work from that? :nono: Maybe you've missed the actual, legal definition of a foot as being 1/3 of a yard, or 12 inches - and that the international definition of a yard as agreed to in the International Yard and Pound Agreement of 1959 is *0.9144 metres*. The UK adopted what is nowadays referred to as the "industrial inch", at 25.4mm precisely in 1925 - it took the USA a bit longer; they adopted it in _1933_. Then again Britain had actually accepted the millimetres system as far back as 1897 with the introduction of the Weights and Measures Act of 1897, legalizing the metric system. I can only think it must have been something to do with international trade



reuelt said:


> Many metric countries use the cm commonly.


OK, name them........ Seriously, I don't think you understand how we use the metric system, at least not in Europe. Small measures, components, architectural measures on a smaller scale such as door openings, doors, windows, etc are by convention quoted in millimetres, especially on components lists and the like. Larger scale items, such as room sizes are quoted in metres with 1 or sometimes 2 decimal places, e.g. 15.5 metres, 3.45 metres, etc. In the UK, as well as other European countries that convention in drawings and plans, etc is enforced by law, so that a drawing arriving here from, say, Poland would mean the same to use as it did to the original author. The only place you'll normally find centimetres in Europe is in somewhere like a gift catalogue where stating that an object such as a coffee table is 30 x 30 x 50cm high is just a form of shorthand - shorter and easier to read than stating 300 x 300 x 500mm high and less unwieldy than using 0.3 x 0.3 x 0.5 metres. Pretty much everyone here seems to know this and understand it. My experience isn't limited to living and working in the UK, either - same hold true for all the "old" ten states of the EU I've worked, lived or travelled in overthe last 40 odd years

Regards

Phil


----------



## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

reuelt said:


> "So much of the world" that never sent anyone to the moon.


And what the blazes has that got to do with the metric system? :wacko:



AndyL said:


> I was about to write a reply, but I think I need to ponder a little longer on the immorality of the speed of light first.


Me too, Andy. Me, too. All sorts of things are now popping into my head!

Marcel, from your link, a wonderful comment: _"For us, England is a bit colourfull small country, a bit dull weather, a lot of nice humour, good music and a population that is a bit like a mixture of Paul McCartney and Mr Bean."_. 

As a Brit who lives here I think that sums us up rather well. Not too sure whether I'm nearer Mr Bean than Paul Mcartney, though. Personally I always preferred "Hearts of Oak" to "Rule Britannia".

Toodle Pip! TTFN

Phil


----------



## reuelt (Dec 29, 2008)

*Imperial System Guide Bush not stupid at all*

Std Porter cable Guide Bush set
Includes Guides with following Outer Diameters

5/16"
3/8"
7/16" (suitable for use with Leigh dovetail jigs), 
1/2"
5/8"
3/4"
51/64" (suitable for inlays with 1/8" or 1/4" bits)

(I have the Triton Router Template Guide Kit - and they have guides similar dimensions - nothing stupid at all


----------



## gwizz (Mar 3, 2012)

Hey Harry ... Your the Man ! – You’ve done it again, 
50 pages of flag waving, adrenaline producing, shots back and forth without once, ( well maybe a couple of oblique nationalistic quips could be considered politic ) resorting to religion or politics.

I was totally pleased recently to find a modestly priced digital linier caliper that actually converts metric and imperial decimal displays to fractions and display it that way so I don’t need to keep my old inch caliper with fraction indications, rust free anymore. 

Phil will be pleased it's made of Alue - mini - umm so I'm moving on ( slowly ) into the brave new world.


----------



## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

AndyL said:


> I was about to write a reply, but I think I need to ponder a little longer on the immorality of the speed of light first.


299 792 458 m / s


----------



## Chris Curl (Feb 13, 2012)

heh. my caliper is in inches, with 1/1000 graduations. how about that for an imperial measuring tool with base 10 stuff injected into it for fun?

now when i measure stuff with that, i need to use the calculator to figure out that .122" rounds 1/8" and .0631" rounds to 1/16". fun stuff ... i need to print out the decimal equivalents of the standard imperial measurements so i can easily convert. my little table will also include millimeters


----------



## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

gwizz said:


> Hey Harry ... Your the Man ! – You’ve done it again,
> 50 pages of flag waving, adrenaline producing, shots back and forth without once, ( well maybe a couple of oblique nationalistic quips could be considered politic ) resorting to religion or politics.
> 
> I was totally pleased recently to find a modestly priced digital linier caliper that actually converts metric and imperial decimal displays to fractions and display it that way so I don’t need to keep my old inch caliper with fraction indications, rust free anymore.
> ...


He is such a rabble rouser!!


----------



## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

chris curl said:


> heh. My caliper is in inches, with 1/1000 graduations. How about that for an imperial measuring tool with base 10 stuff injected into it for fun?
> 
> Now when i measure stuff with that, i need to use the calculator to figure out that .122" rounds 1/8" and .0631" rounds to 1/16". Fun stuff ... I need to print out the decimal equivalents of the standard imperial measurements so i can easily convert. My little table will also include millimeters


1/8" = .125, a micrometer is more accurate but who cares 'cause it's only wood.


----------



## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Marcel M said:


> 1/8" = .125, a micrometer is more accurate but who cares 'cause it's only wood.


Yeah, first rains of the rainy season and it'll move more than that (problem is, round here the rainy season starts in September and finishes late July)

Regards

Phil


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

Get the wellies on go down to the local lumber yard and buy some Cyprus.


----------



## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

*Metric guide bush system not stupid either*

Trend metric guide bushes:-

10/11/12/14/16/17/18/19/20/22/24/25/26/27/28/30/32/40 mm plus a load of others in "non metric" sizes

Bigger ones for use with the Trend T11 router: 50/60/70mm

Pocket to inlay? Easy, use a metric guide bush and a collar with the appropriate cutter:-

16mm guide bush + 16/30 collar + 7mm bit

20mm guide bush + 20/40 collar + 10mm bit

30mm guide bush + 30/54 collar + 12mm bit

Most 1/2in plunge routers are delivered with a 30mm guide bush in the box (here in the EU and in OZ from what I'm told) and 16mm is available for pretty much everything. Handy really as those two sizes fit all sorts of jigs from worktop (countertop) post form jigs to hinge jigs. 24mm is the third nice one to have because used with a hinge jig and a 20mm straight cutter you can use it to install 10mm radiused door hinges (a standard metric size :lol

Leigh jigs? They do guide bushes to fit this system, too, although go WoodRat or RouterBoss and it doesn't matter which system you use.....

The nice thing is that Trend listened and made P-C-style guide bushes in 16mm and 30mm

Please note: This post was added for the sake of completeness 

Regards

Phil


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

gwizz said:


> Hey Harry ... Your the Man ! – You’ve done it again,
> 50 pages of flag waving, adrenaline producing, shots back and forth without once, ( well maybe a couple of oblique nationalistic quips could be considered politic ) resorting to religion or politics.
> 
> I was totally pleased recently to find a modestly priced digital linier caliper that actually converts metric and imperial decimal displays to fractions and display it that way so I don’t need to keep my old inch caliper with fraction indications, rust free anymore.
> ...


Surely it isn't made from Aluminium Richard, plastic possibly but more likely stainless steel. Probably the reason this thread has gone on so long is that Reuelt has nothing to do all day but seasrch the internet to find things to post and we all know how unreliable statements on the internet can be. I don't know how you could possibly have come this far without a triple reading digital caliper.


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Chris Curl said:


> heh. my caliper is in inches, with 1/1000 graduations. how about that for an imperial measuring tool with base 10 stuff injected into it for fun?
> 
> now when i measure stuff with that, i need to use the calculator to figure out that .122" rounds 1/8" and .0631" rounds to 1/16". fun stuff ... i need to print out the decimal equivalents of the standard imperial measurements so i can easily convert. my little table will also include millimeters


What you really need Chris. is a triple reading digital caliper like this and I know that Bj will second that, wont you Bob?


----------



## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Yes I 2nd that Harry 

==



harrysin said:


> What you really need Chris. is a triple reading digital caliper like this and I know that Bj will second that, wont you Bob?


----------



## GulfcoastGuy (Feb 27, 2012)

I've got one of those. Very handy. Harbor Freight - not bad once I cleaned the grit out of it and used it a little - whoda thunk it.

GCG


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Phil, you missed the 33 mm bushing and the US bushing set that runs from 3/8" to 1-5/16". The bottom right metal piece is a PC adapter.


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## Chris Curl (Feb 13, 2012)

yes i looked at those ... they are really nice, but more than i wanted to spend ... sound familiar? 

and yes GCG, i got it at Hazard Fraught. it's actually a nice piece and seems well made and durable.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Just a note,Rockler has the *T4* on sale for 69.00 dollars

One more note I have had the metal guides for the T4 for over 3 years and have not needed to use them ,just so much more *metric junk* in the router tool box.. 

==


Mike said:


> Phil, you missed the 33 mm bushing and the US bushing set that runs from 3/8" to 1-5/16". The bottom right metal piece is a PC adapter.


----------



## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

If you want to work with guide bushings on a small router the T-4 is hard to beat at the price. It has a very poor turret design and the other small routers can be placed upside down for bit changes; if Trend moved the power cord to the side along with the speed control it would be much easier to use. The T-4 does have the most power of all the small routers.


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Mike said:


> Phil, you missed the 33 mm bushing and the US bushing set that runs from 3/8" to 1-5/16". The bottom right metal piece is a PC adapter.


Hi Mike

Oops! Pity is Trend missed a 34mm GB - I could really use that one. Does that mean Trend are distributing the full line in the USA now?

BTW any how easy will it be to get the new Bosch plunge base to tale Trend GBs (without resorting to a Trend GB5 sub-base)?

Regards

Phil


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Phil, A picture is worth a thousand words. The Trend Unibase and the factory base on MRP23 routers. Trend USA has stock of the GB1, GB2 and GB3 sets as well as the steel bushings. Trend is only offering part of their product line in the US.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

I've had all night to think about these three photographs that I posted and realised that they illustrate vividly why I called this thread "The utter stupidity of Imperial measurements"!


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Harry; only a masochist would be using Imperial fractions at that scale. 
Once you get to 32nds... if you can still actually see that small without a magnifying glass...you switch to decimal places, same as metric usage.
I've lived with Imperial all my life. I can relate to it; My outstretched arms, fingertip to fingertip is 6', same as my height. I can pace off distance fairly accurately as my stride is pretty close to three ft. My hand width stretched out tip of thumb to tip of pinky is 8" almost dead on. That x2 is stud spacing ctr. to ctr.
My shoe is 12" long (just measured it to confirm).
It's true that a lot of Imperial measurement is archaic, bushel baskets for example, but they all relate to human endeavour; in other words, History. I'm not prepared personally to junk 150,000 years of evolution just because somebody else thinks 
that SI trumps it. 
_"... Their measurements were extremely precise since their smallest division, which is marked on an ivory scale found in Lothal, was approximately 1.704 mm (1/16 inch), the smallest division ever recorded on a scale of the Bronze Age. "_
History of measurement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## david k (Oct 22, 2012)

harry my friend you have too much time on your hands


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## reuelt (Dec 29, 2008)

*mm only measure is better*

Compare CAREFULLY Australian mm tape measure with other countries metric tape measure.

Australia banned the cm and use "mm only" measures & that will easily expose the decimal point "rounding" cheats encouraged by "the decimal metric system".

"2438mm" label is far superior than "2.4m"

cm, dm are redundant.


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## cagenuts (May 8, 2010)

reuelt said:


> Compare CAREFULLY Australian mm tape measure with other countries metric tape measure.
> 
> Australia banned the cm and use "mm only" measures & that easily got rid of the meter decimal point "rounding" cheats.
> 
> cm, dm are redundant.


Sorry but I see centimetres on those tape measures.


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## reuelt (Dec 29, 2008)

cagenuts said:


> Sorry but I see centimetres on those tape measures.


The first picture is labelled in mm only. The second is cm + 1/10 divisons. See the difference?


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## cagenuts (May 8, 2010)

The first tape measure is useless.


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## reuelt (Dec 29, 2008)

cagenuts said:


> The first tape measure is useless.


Respect your opinion.
We only have the first type in Australia because cm has been banned. Other countries use the cm commonly.
On some other forums, there are Canadans, Swede and others who are said they are after the "mm only" tape measures only available from Australia.


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## cagenuts (May 8, 2010)

Is this because the Aussie contractors were easily confused? I seriously don't see why they would 'ban' the centimetre, it's just counting in tens.

What's next, the distance between Perth and Sydney is now stated as 393540000mm?


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

david k said:


> harry my friend you have too much time on your hands


I wish David.


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

reuelt said:


> Compare CAREFULLY Australian mm tape measure with other countries metric tape measure.
> 
> Australia banned the cm and use "mm only" measures & that will easily expose the decimal point "rounding" cheats encouraged by "the decimal metric system".
> 
> ...


I've asked before and I ask again Reuelt, where DO you get your information from? When did Australia BAN the cm?


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

reuelt said:


> Compare CAREFULLY Australian mm tape measure with other countries metric tape measure.
> 
> Australia banned the cm and use "mm only" measures & that will easily expose the decimal point "rounding" cheats encouraged by "the decimal metric system".
> 
> ...


These two tapes plus a few others are readily available here at Bunnings and probably every other tool store!


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## AndyL (Jun 3, 2011)

cagenuts said:


> Is this because the Aussie contractors were easily confused? I seriously don't see why they would 'ban' the centimetre, it's just counting in tens.
> 
> What's next, the distance between Perth and Sydney is now stated as 393540000mm?


Hey, why not


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

harrysin said:


> These two tapes plus a few others are readily available here at Bunnings and probably every other tool store!


Funnily enough, Harry, they look just like the tapes we get over here......



AndyL said:


> Hey, why not


Yes. And whilst we are at it what's the distance to the sun? Oh yeah, 150 000 000 000 000 mm :blink: (or 150 million km for simpletons like me :lol. This could be the start of a whole new craze!

Regards

Phil


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

*Wait...what?*



harrysin said:


> These two tapes plus a few others are readily available here at Bunnings and probably every other tool store!


The legend on the photo says "These are meters."
Well no, actually they're not. They're meter equivalents; they're mm and cm respectively. 
That's no different than saying the three ft. mark on an Imperial tape is a 'yard'. It's equivalent to a yard. If it were a 'yard' it would say "yard".


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

cagenuts said:


> Sorry but I see centimetres on those tape measures.


Oops...lol


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

*Wot the......*



reuelt said:


> Compare CAREFULLY Australian mm tape measure with other countries metric tape measure.
> 
> Australia banned the cm and use "mm only" measures & that will easily expose the decimal point "rounding" cheats encouraged by "the decimal metric system".
> 
> ...


Hi Reuel,

You keep repeating that "Australia has banned the cm" and have failed to provide any evidence of this statement.

The rulers you show in your post clearly have the cm as the major marking with mm as the minor marking.

I have lived in Australia for all my 65 years and was not aware of this "ban". Can you please offer some proof or desist from making this statement?????


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

*Page 53?????*

Remind me agin, somebody, where was that link to the tape marked in _"vershoks"_, again? I'm beginning to think that we should all compromise and change system........ :thank_you2:

Regards

Phil


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## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

Phil P said:


> Remind me agin, somebody, where was that link to the tape marked in _"vershoks"_, again? I'm beginning to think that we should all compromise and change system........ :thank_you2:
> 
> Regards
> 
> Phil


Or, we could just create a _*new*_ incompatible with everything standard!:lol:


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## david k (Oct 22, 2012)

You use the measurements you learned as a kid/prof. not rocket science. if it works for you then it works.period


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

DaninVan said:


> The legend on the photo says "These are meters."
> Well no, actually they're not. They're meter equivalents; they're mm and cm respectively.
> That's no different than saying the three ft. mark on an Imperial tape is a 'yard'. It's equivalent to a yard. If it were a 'yard' it would say "yard".


Dan., the photo was one that I posted some time ago so the text has no significance this time around.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

david k said:


> You use the measurements you learned as a kid/prof. not rocket science. if it works for you then it works.period


Not true David, I spent my first 32 years in England which at the time was IMPERIAL as was Australia when I arrived in 1964 but the changeover to metric commenced on February 24th 1966 and was a slow steady transition to the far easier to use METRIC system.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Harry

I'm sorry you lost the best IMPERIAL way//

==


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

It's good to see your input to this thread Bob, even though I have a suspician that you are quietly practicing using metric and will eventually, like with the router skis, admit that you have realised that metric really is far easier than Imperial. I know for a fact that like me, your maths wouldn't win any prizes however, after "finding" metric, my maths improved no end, I really am being serious Bob.


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

david k said:


> You use the measurements you learned as a kid/prof. not rocket science. if it works for you then it works.period


That's easy, then - I learned both. Can I choose, please? If so, then metric.....

Regards

Phil


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

In the same way that woodworking tasks can be accomplished using different methods the same holds true for measurements. Use what ever you are most comfortable with.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Me thinks that you are missing the point Mike which is attempting to get members to TRY using metric and THEN making the decision. It's like having only ever used a micrometer and not being prepared to try the much simpler digital caliper.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Harry; there are lots of things out there that I might like, but haven't tried yet. Some of them are even legal...


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## Chris Curl (Feb 13, 2012)

I, for one, will NOT even try metric when the cost is so much higher than SAE. If the costs were similar, then I would almost certainly prefer metric.


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## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

harrysin said:


> Me thinks that you are missing the point Mike which is attempting to get members to TRY using metric and THEN making the decision. It's like having only ever used a micrometer and not being prepared to try the much simpler digital caliper.


Why in the world would I go out and by a bunch of new tools just to "try" metric, when the imperial tools I have work just fine? Just saying.:yes4:


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

harrysin said:


> Me thinks that you are missing the point Mike which is attempting to get members to TRY using metric and THEN making the decision. It's like having only ever used a micrometer and not being prepared to try the much simpler digital caliper.




Hmmmm...
Harry, just guessing here, but starting off by insulting the majority of members' IQ ..."The Utter Stupidity of Imperial Measurement"... is probably not going to win over a lot of converts.
Lets keep in mind here, we're talking about a market in excess of 300Million people.
Manufacturers aren't stupid! (Well ok, some are...)
Set of 4 Mortise Chisels (Extra Strong) - Made in Germany-Traditional Woodworker


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## reuelt (Dec 29, 2008)

*Australia is Young & Free - Fractional Calipers Available here*

At least 4 brands of Fractional Calipers are available - even sold in Bunnings and Masters Home Improvements.
some accurate to 1/128"

General Tools
General - Digital Fractional Calipers - Masters Home Improvement
General Calipers
Kinchrome
Measuring Vernier Kincrome 150mm Digital K11100 - Bunnings Warehouse
Kincrome Digital Vernier 200mm (8”) Imperial, Metric & Fractional + Case K11102 | Hitachi Power Tools | Dewalt | Milwaukee Tools | Makita

Inteck
Intech Digital Vernier 200mm(8''). #MTDC200

carba-tec
Carba-Tec® 200mm Digital Caliper : CARBA-TEC


----------



## reuelt (Dec 29, 2008)

*I provided Evidence in #465 of this thread*



jw2170 said:


> Hi Reuel,
> 
> You keep repeating that "Australia has banned the cm" and have failed to provide any evidence of this statement.
> 
> ...


I already provided Evidence in post #465 of this thread

Measuring a 10" diameter circular saw, a ruler in Australia would read 254mm directly - with NO DECIMAL POINTs. Rulers in most "Decimal metric" countries would read 25.4cm.
Ever wonder why some countries e.g Germany must use commas instead of fullstops for the decimal points - The important "dot" is sometimes hardly visible - so causes errors.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

#465
"The Australian Building and Construction Advisory Committee policy:
The metric units for linear measurement in building and construction will be the metre (m)
and the millimetre (mm), with the kilometre (km) being used where required. This will
apply to all sectors of the industry, and the centimetre (cm) shall not be used. *
With these words the Australian Building and Construction Advisory Committee effectively
banished centimetres from the building trades in Australia. They made it clear that the centimetre should generally not be used, and in particular:
… the centimetre should not be used in any calculation and it should never be written down.
*
*Standards Association of Australia 'Metric Handbook, Metric Conversion in Building and Construction 1972"

While not an outright "ban" that certainly adds some serious support to Reul's claim.
The underlying reason being that as far back as the late 60's, costly errors were being made with metric implementation?


----------



## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

DaninVan said:


> #465
> 
> 
> While not an outright "ban" that certainly adds some serious support to Reul's claim.
> The underlying reason being that as far back as the late 60's, costly errors were being made with metric implementation?


Imagine that! Mistakes can be made in metric? Who'd of thunk it!:no:


----------



## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Some ammo for Harry;
when I'm doing stair calculations, I use my calculator, ie digital and decimal results. I then need to switch back to fractions to set the stair guides on the framing square. That _is_ an unnecessary step, compared to metric.
On the other hand I _could_ upgrade to a construction calculator, which would eliminate the issue.
Enlarged Image - <\/TITLE><\/HEAD><BODY bgcolor="white" onLoad="if (self.resizeTo)self.resizeTo((document.images[0].width+10),(500))" topmargin="4" leftmargin="0" rightmargin="0" bottommargin="0"><table width=""'+document.images[0].width+'" border="0


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

Grumpy Old Tom said:


> It's probably already been mentioned, but a much more serious potential loss occurred when the Gimli Glider was fueled using an Imperial fuel density instead of metric, resulting in less than half the fuel it needed being placed into the tanks.
> 
> Like the more recent ditching on the Hudson, the captain of the Gimli Glider was also an accomplished glider pilot; still, the only runway that he was able to reach had activities on it at the time, and folks were quite surprised to see a 200+ passenger wide body airliner descending near silently out of the afternoon sky. It's approaching miracle status that the only injuries in the air or on the ground were minor, and no lives were lost.
> 
> ...



Tom, this event is exactly the one to which i had referred much earlier, and in very vague terms, with uncertainty about the date. Thanks very much for the info and the link.

Tom


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

DaninVan said:


> #465
> "The Australian Building and Construction Advisory Committee policy:
> The metric units for linear measurement in building and construction will be the metre (m)
> and the millimetre (mm), with the kilometre (km) being used where required. This will
> ...


Hi Dan, Reuel.

While a recommendation from an advisory committee, this is still not a "ban".

To imply otherwise is misleading. 

"While not an outright "ban" ".........????

Committee was looking at the _building and construction _industry, not woodworking at our level.




> With these words the Australian Building and Construction Advisory Committee effectively _banished_ [note - not banned] centimetres from the building trades in Australia. They made it clear that the centimetre should generally not be used, and in particular:
> … the centimetre should not be used in any calculation and it should never be written down.


 who's words are these?

Sorry, Reuel, I am still not convinced that the cm has been _banned _from Australia.


----------



## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Hey, I'm just holding Reuel's jacket...


----------



## reuelt (Dec 29, 2008)

jw2170 said:


> Hi Dan, Reuel.
> 
> While a recommendation from an advisory committee, this is still not a "ban".
> 
> ...


Ban is a synonym of banish (see picture).

I am NOT trying to convince anyone. Anyone can check the Standard Association of Australia - to convince themselves.

Australia does NOT ban goods from overseas labelled in cm. Only bans cm locally to avoid costly mistakes in Building & construction industry. Mistakes are caused by the inferior "METRIC system" - the decimal point and the roundings create expensive mistakes.


----------



## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

DaninVan said:


> Some ammo for Harry;
> when I'm doing stair calculations, I use my calculator, ie digital and decimal results. I then need to switch back to fractions to set the stair guides on the framing square. That _is_ an unnecessary step, compared to metric.
> On the other hand I _could_ upgrade to a construction calculator, which would eliminate the issue.
> Enlarged Image - <\/TITLE><\/HEAD><BODY bgcolor="white" onLoad="if (self.resizeTo)self.resizeTo((document.images[0].width+10),(500))" topmargin="4" leftmargin="0" rightmargin="0" bottommargin="0"><table width=""'+document.images[0].width+'" border="0


Dan, carpenters successfully made stairs before calculators of _either_ type existed! Maybe the tech is the problem.:yes4:

Don't get me wrong, I _like_ tech! 

I still say the tool manufactures are the ones really benefiting from this continuing. Although my measuring tools are most all imperial, and I like it that way, Still have to have 2 sets of sockets, 2 sets of wrenches, 2 sets of allen keys, etc, etc.


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

reuelt said:


> Mistakes are caused by the inferior "METRIC system".


Aw c'mon Reuel. Mistakes are caused by _people_. If metric is so inferior why is it so widely used - and increasing it's reach year by year? Never heard of a country "going Imperial", only "going Metric"

One point to consider is this; what's the smallest measure a carpenter works to - often in Imperial it's 1/8in (or 3.16mm) - in metric it's 1mm, which is a tad more accurate 



Dmeadows said:


> I still say the tool manufactures are the ones really benefiting from this continuing. Although my measuring tools are most all imperial, and I like it that way, Still have to have 2 sets of sockets, 2 sets of wrenches, 2 sets of allen keys, etc, etc.


In the UK and other places that would be three or even four; BSF, Whitworth, A/F (US) and metric. I'm glad somebody came up with Metrinch spanners

Regards

Phil


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## reuelt (Dec 29, 2008)

Phil P said:


> Aw c'mon Reuel. Mistakes are caused by _people_. If metric is so inferior why is it so widely used - and increasing it's reach year by year? Never heard of a country "going Imperial", only "going Metric"
> 
> One point to consider is this; what's the smallest measure a carpenter works to - often in Imperial it's 1/8in (or 3.16mm) - in metric it's 1mm, which is a tad more accurate
> 
> ...


Sorry Phil,
I am talking from experience. 

I just custom ordered a barrier screen door for my back door. Cost me AUD$495 to custom order because mine is an old house. Provided the dimensions as requested in mm. Took 3 weeks. Width was specified as 754mm. Came back as 75cm wide. 
In summer we have BIG flies in Australia. But that door is supposed to keep big and small flies & mosquitoes out of my house!

If I take it back means - they have just lost $495 for a silly metric rounding mistake.

The Australian building industry tries to reduce this sort of errors. That's why we now only work in mm - no cm or dm. We do NOT have to fine, jail or kill people as they do in the UK & other countries over metrication. We are 100% metric officially since 1971. 

4 brands of Fractional Calipers are sold in Melbourne - but tapes, rulers, squares etc. with cm are "banned".

Australians are "FAIR DINKUM" - we are young and free.


----------



## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Power to the People!

..."British units of measurement were adopted in India as first the East India Company and later colonial rule gained foothold.[4] The Republic of India adopted the metric system on April 1, 1957.[4] However, the traditional units still prevail in some areas.[19] Chakrabarti (2007) holds that: 'Yet a few areas have still remained untouched by the metric system. In the land-measuring system in India, possibly one of the most complex and archaic systems, we follow different sets of measuring units and systems in different parts of the country. Different State governments have tried to standardize this by introducing a suitable metric system through which official transactions take place and official records are kept. But the land dealings are still done in a number of archaic units. It appears that people are satisfied and comfortable with them.'[19]"
History of measurement systems in India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

reuelt said:


> We do NOT have to fine, jail or kill people as they do in the UK & other countries over metrication.


Reuel, now you're being ridiculous! If I order a door 754mm wide in the UK, then that's exactly what I get (unlike, it appears, Australia). I can still order a 2ft 6in or 2ft 9in door if I want to (we call that backwards compatibility) and that's what will be delivered. Nobody here gets fined over refusing to use metric (we've had that stupidity in Weights and Measures repealed for quite some time) and it is still legal to sell "loose" foodstuffs in avoirdupois (16oz pounds) or pints/gallons BUT the price must also be quoted in the metric equivalent (so £1.50/100gm = 82.7pence per 1/4 lb, etc). The only place where any form of coercion comes in is in stuff like architectural and engineering drawings _for use within the EU_. Do those in any non-standard scales (i.e Imperial or cm) and the drawings will be rejected by the relevant regulatory/governing body, e.g. a local council Planning Dept (if you are working on a building), any accreditation body dealing with ISO.9000, etc within the EU, etc. This is no different to how things were in Imperial days. It is very obvious to everyone involved that harmonisation not only of measurements but also of building materials standards is in everyone's interest and there simply aren't naysayers here any longer

As for killing people? Nowhere in Europe has used the death penalty for a long time - it's a part of joining the EU that you abolish it's use. It's a long time since we've hung anyone, or even deported them to the colonies for illegal possession of a centimetre rule! :jester:

Regards

Phil


----------



## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Easy boys and play nice or someone will close this thread for every.. 

===


----------



## reuelt (Dec 29, 2008)

*10mm bit 20mm & 40mm Guide Bush is a MISTAKE*

10mm bit 20mm & 40mm Guide Bush project is itself a MISTAKE!
It will produce inlays that will not fit unless sanded manually.

Problem with some people is that they can't admit they are wrong and are non-stop continually trying to push an INFERIOR "decimal" system. 

NASA lost NASA lost a 125 million Mars orbiter because of Metrication confusion.
NASAs metric confusion caused Mars orbiter loss - CNN


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

reuelt said:


> I just custom ordered a barrier screen door for my back door. Cost me AUD$495 to custom order because mine is an old house. Provided the dimensions as requested in mm. Took 3 weeks. Width was specified as 754mm. Came back as 75cm wide.


Just a thought on that Reuel. Did you specify the width (754mm) as door size or opening size? On reflection I'm wondering if they've made a door to fit a 754mm *opening* - which would be 750mm wide leaving a 2mm gap at the sides (for a tight fit). I've seen that confusion a couple of times where an invalid assumption was made somewhere along the way and stuff was delivered wringly sized. I've also seen the same sorts of errors in Imperial days. Might be worth asking them what the took the size to mean. 

Just a thought

Phil


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

DaninVan said:


> #465
> "The Australian Building and Construction Advisory Committee policy:
> The metric units for linear measurement in building and construction will be the metre (m)
> and the millimetre (mm), with the kilometre (km) being used where required. This will
> ...


Dan., that applies to the building industry and as you rightly pointed out, it is not a ban. This forum like so many others basically consists of amateurs and hobbiests, I have no doubt that there are professional forums for many industries. It's obvious that I have to once again repeat that MY posts and threads are aimed fairly and squarely at the groups I've just mentioned. To put things in perspective, here in Australia Imperial measurements are still used for some things BUT, by law the metric equivenent must also be shown. This television advertisment from today's paper shows what I mean.


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

DaninVan said:


> Harry; there are lots of things out there that I might like, but haven't tried yet. Some of them are even legal...


Go be a devil Dan. and give some of them a try!


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

DaninVan said:


> Hmmmm...
> Harry, just guessing here, but starting off by insulting the majority of members' IQ ..."The Utter Stupidity of Imperial Measurement"... is probably not going to win over a lot of converts.
> Lets keep in mind here, we're talking about a market in excess of 300Million people.
> Manufacturers aren't stupid! (Well ok, some are...)
> Set of 4 Mortise Chisels (Extra Strong) - Made in Germany-Traditional Woodworker


I'm sure that you have realised that it was that title that has brought so many members together and talking to each other, I consider it "mission accomplished"!
Incidentally Dan., I receive regular fliers from American tool stores and more and more I'm seeing metric options. As you said, manufacturers are not stupid, just slow to accept change, however, as the trickle of requests for things METRIC reaches flood proportions things WILL change, believe me.


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

reuelt said:


> I already provided Evidence in post #465 of this thread
> 
> Measuring a 10" diameter circular saw, a ruler in Australia would read 254mm directly - with NO DECIMAL POINTs. Rulers in most "Decimal metric" countries would read 25.4cm.
> Ever wonder why some countries e.g Germany must use commas instead of fullstops for the decimal points - The important "dot" is sometimes hardly visible - so causes errors.


Reuelt, I've reached the inescapable conclusion that you are in no way involved in woodworking OR you are just taking the Mickey.
Please be informed that all woodworkers that I know use steel rules like these two which are readily available even here in Perth, the first or second most isolated place in the world.


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

DaninVan said:


> Hey, I'm just holding Reuel's jacket...



ROTFL.

I believe that Reuel is having a quiet day in the office and is searching for info to inflame the tread.

He got me..........LOL

In any case the discusssion is on "metric" -V- "imperial', not which parts, if any, were or were not banned.

This is just red herring...........:haha::haha::haha::haha::haha::haha:


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## reuelt (Dec 29, 2008)

Phil P said:


> Just a thought on that Reuel. Did you specify the width (754mm) as door size or opening size? On reflection I'm wondering if they've made a door to fit a 754mm *opening* - which would be 750mm wide leaving a 2mm gap at the sides (for a tight fit). I've seen that confusion a couple of times where an invalid assumption was made somewhere along the way and stuff was delivered wringly sized. I've also seen the same sorts of errors in Imperial days. Might be worth asking them what the took the size to mean.
> 
> Just a thought
> 
> Phil


Again, YOU assume it was my error? Why?
The cataloque has very clear instruction of what to measure. We just had to fill in the table.

Decimal system IS at fault. People becomes dumb and just do CARELESS rounding.


----------



## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

> or even deported them to the colonies for illegal possession of a centimetre rule


LOL......must be my great grandfather........LOL


----------



## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

bobj3 said:


> Easy boys and play nice or someone will close this thread for every..
> 
> ===


Thanks for the wake up call, BJ.

I guess the thread has drifted "slightly" of topic........:sold:


----------



## cagenuts (May 8, 2010)

jw2170 said:


> I guess the thread has drifted "slightly" of topic........:sold:


Yes but only by a few centimetres


----------



## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

cagenuts said:


> Yes but only by a few centimetres


Hilton, you should know better......


----------



## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

reuelt said:


> Again, YOU assume it was my error? Why?
> The cataloque has very clear instruction of what to measure. We just had to fill in the table.
> 
> Decimal system IS at fault. People becomes dumb and just do CARELESS rounding.





reuelt said:


> Problem with some people is that they can't admit they are wrong and are non-stop continually trying to push an INFERIOR "decimal" system.


I have to assume that as Harry says, you are no woodworker and that you really have nothing constructive to contribute because you are a nothing more than an Internet troll.

Tara

Phil


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

"Problem with some people is that they can't admit they are wrong"

Your words Reuelt, and I agree 100%!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! By the way, does being a Chartered IT Consultant allow you much time in your "new" shed?


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

I wonder what my old friend Santè, who I notice is looking in on this thread thinks.


----------



## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

_"When the mind is silent, then reality comes of its own accord. When you are thinking and thinking, the world has got you, and you become worldly again. Self-inquiry causes the mind to be quiet."

--Robert Adams_

( I have absolutely no idea what he's talking about, but it sure sounds impressive...  )


----------



## Santé (Jan 14, 2010)

Yes, Harry, I read with great pleasure this thread.
I understand that it is difficult to change our habits, but when it is to make life easier, do not hesitate.
I believe that the Americans are victim the fact that they believe they were the best in everything. This is probably true in many domains but certainly not for the use of the imperial system.
I laugh a lot when I read you are talking about the use of meter, cm or mm. It's so simple: if you must measure small length (eg furniture) we will use the millimeter when it is used to measure longer distances or if it should not be very precise, we will use cm or meter with comma if it is for the distance between two cities, it is the Km. 
If you measure a cabinet just to know about its length, you say 1.8 m or 180 cm.
If you need to make the same cabinet, you say 1805 mm or 1803,5 etc..for more precision
All this do not poses problem.

Excuse me for my poor english


----------



## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

When I began reading the most recent posts I had to check to see if I had stumbled on to a kindergarten site. I'm still not sure! I'll check back later to see if the IQ level has gone up from double digits.


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

I think that you chose a very appropriate avatar Marcel.


----------



## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

I do nothing by chance


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Well then Marcel, how about a project from you complete with photo-shoot, you sure do have the tools and background to do so. I am NOT being sarcastic or facetious, I know for a fact that many members would like you to do this and either metric or Imperial will be fine, a great many of us have an understanding of both systems.


----------



## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

I will bargain with you Harry. If I make a project photo-shoot than you will make a project video-shoot within three months of me posting my project photo shoot. Deal?


----------



## reuelt (Dec 29, 2008)

*US customary system (fractional) is better for Woodworking*

Why they HAD to ban the cm? 
Because the DECIMAL system is so inferior to the (US customary system).
Using the cm is confusing (hence error prone) when doing woodworking or carpentry and Using the “mm only” is a just using “BAND-AID ”.
Eg. 
½ cm = 0.5cm = 5mm
1/4cm = 0.25cm = 2.5mm
1/8cm = 0.125cm = 1.25mm
1/16cm = 0.0625cm = 0.625mm
1/32cm = 0.03125cm = 0.3125mm
They round down 2.54cm (1 inch) to 2.5cm 
2.5cm /2 = 1.25cm
1.25cm /2 = 0.625 cm
0.625 cm /2 = 0.3125cm
But 12.5mm 6.25mm 3.125mm router bits does not exist.
But we have 13mm, 12mm, 8mm, 6mm, 5mm, 4mm, 3mm router bits – GO FIGURE.
GO BACK to “US CUSTOMARY SYSTEM” for woodworking.
You may count your money using the decimal system.


----------



## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

reuelt said:


> Why they HAD to ban the cm?
> Because the DECIMAL system is so inferior to the (US customary system).
> Using the cm is confusing (hence error prone) when doing woodworking or carpentry and Using the “mm only” is a just using “BAND-AID ”.
> Eg.
> ...


I am sure there is a point here somewhere, but for the life of me I can't see it.:laugh:


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Believe me Duane, you are far from being alone, Reuelt is attempting to compete with me in stirring things up, but I sure hope that my way is better than his. I'm sure that there are IT types who are also practical and down to earth, but I personally can't recall actually meeting any.


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Marcel M said:


> I will bargain with you Harry. If I make a project photo-shoot than you will make a project video-shoot within three months of me posting my project photo shoot. Deal?


I'm giving your proposition serious thought, however how do you know that I wouldn't renege after you've posted.


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

It's been announced that China has overtaken the USA in the number of motor cars it is producing and because China has, for about the last 30 years been a METRIC country my thought is that all it's exports will soon be METRIC only, and because like other major countries the USA imports a huge amount of manufactured goods from China it will be a good idea if Americans become familiar with BOTH systems, like we in Australia also people from many other countries including England. I'm not just referring to woodworkers, rather all Americans. I'm trying to be helpful here guys.


----------



## Santé (Jan 14, 2010)

Hello,
Why would you want to use fractions in the metric system?
1/2, 1/4, 1 /, 1/16, etc. ..? This does not happen!
It uses mm for precise measurements (carpentry)
I stop here my speeches in a debate that does not concern me, being happy to use the metric system!


----------



## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

*A matter of integrity*



harrysin said:


> I'm giving your proposition serious thought, however how do you know that I wouldn't renege after you've posted.


If you planned on reneging you would not have posed this question.


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Santé said:


> Hello,
> Why would you want to use fractions in the metric system?
> 1/2, 1/4, 1 /, 1/16, etc. ..? This does not happen!
> It uses mm for precise measurements (carpentry)
> I stop here my speeches in a debate that does not concern me, being happy to use the metric system!


Don't worry about such inane posts Santé, I doubt that anyone else does.


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Marcel M said:


> If you planned on reneging you would not have posed this question.


Perhaps you should be considering a suitable project to produce complete with photo-shoot Marcel!


----------



## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Santé said:


> I stop here my speeches in a debate that does not concern me, being happy to use the metric system!


Santé, I can but agree with you about the metric system, despite where I come from!

Regards

Phil


----------



## cagenuts (May 8, 2010)

I have *ten* fingers, *ten* toes, there were *ten* lost tribes, *ten* plagues, etc etc.

Tells you something.


----------



## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

"... ten plagues,"
One of them being metric.


----------



## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

harrysin said:


> Perhaps you should be considering a suitable project to produce complete with photo-shoot Marcel!


The consideration was made before the proposition.


----------



## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

cagenuts said:


> I have *ten* fingers, *ten* toes, there were *ten* lost tribes, *ten* plagues, etc etc.
> 
> Tells you something.


AYK, Numerology? Although I agree that base 10 is easier than the imperial system of measurement numerology does not help your case.


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

It's happening guys, Rockler are currently stocking a decent range of Forstner bits in METRIC!


----------



## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

*made in the USA*

I was mucking around in the shed today, when I laid eyes on this straight edge/ruler.


----------



## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

*manage offset......*

Thought I would get a bit of practice on template routing as I want to make a small disc (about 4.5") to repair a set of wind chimes.

I already have 4 circle jigs but felt I needed the practice, Bob and Rick make it look so easy.

I used one of my base plates for a template, a 20mm guide bushing and a 10 mm cutter.

Calculating the offset was easy, even for me......


----------



## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

*congratulations Harry*

You seem to have achieved what you set out to do.:sarcastic:

24,600 views and 589 replies.....

Must be a record of some sort......


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

jw2170 said:


> I was mucking around in the shed today, when I laid eyes on this straight edge/ruler.


The trickle is increasing in velocity James, it won't be long before the flood gates open!


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

jw2170 said:


> You seem to have achieved what you set out to do.:sarcastic:
> 
> 24,600 views and 589 replies.....
> 
> Must be a record of some sort......


Yes James it's got a lot of people talking and using th "M" word.


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

jw2170 said:


> Thought I would get a bit of practice on template routing as I want to make a small disc (about 4.5") to repair a set of wind chimes.
> 
> I already have 4 circle jigs but felt I needed the practice, Bob and Rick make it look so easy.
> 
> ...


Doesn't the Makita router make fast, accurate work of such projects James. It sure is easier to calculate the offset than a 7/8" guide and a 5/16" bit.


----------



## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

Measurements in the imperial system are based on the use of parts of the body and the natural surroundings as measuring instruments. Ancient Indian measurements related to the body are correlated to the finger measure of 1⅜ inch. This measure is found throughout the human body in increments. It is the measure used to build ancient temples and is precisely related to the Indus Valley measuring devices. Early Babylonian and Egyptian records and the Bible indicate that length was first measured with the forearm, hand, or finger and that time was measured by the periods of the sun, moon, and other heavenly bodies. When it was necessary to compare the capacities of containers such as gourds or clay or metal vessels, they were filled with plant seeds which were then counted to measure the volumes. When means for weighing were invented, seeds and stones served as standards. For instance, the carat, still used as a unit for gems, was derived from the carob seed. My point is that units of measure early in our civilization were based in the natural world and were common to many cultures throughout the world. Our methods of calculation have become more precise and now with globalization the world is more interconnected. We need to again change to a universal method of measure that is simple for the global community to understand and calculate. Base 10 is the logical choice for it is simple to convert and understand by all. One example of universality is the use of symbols, such as traffic signs and symbols (see attached), which are easily understood at a glance regardless of geopolitical boundaries.


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Hi Marcel

For one moment there I thought you might be working up to tell us that we're all wrong and that we should adopt the angula and cubit! :haha:

Regards

Phil


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

Phil, did you like my international symbol examples?


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## gwizz (Mar 3, 2012)

It's OK Harry we know that your really just Jealous cuz’ Austrailia like Great Briton does not have routers with built in flux capacitors, like the rest of us, which have two distinct advantages, a) lots ( and I mean LOTS ) of power and b) these routers can go back and correct mistakes before they happened and in nanometres, picometres even, if you skilled, in angstroms. 

But Hey when your good you never need to correct mistakes ! 

I'm 9,999/1000 sure I'm right ( but remember I'm often wrong. )
.
.
.


----------



## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Richard; if you don't _admit_ you're wrong, all they've got is circumstantial evidence!


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

Marcel M said:


> Phil, did you like my international symbol examples?


..'specially the last one. Instantly recognizable,,,,,,


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

> harrysin;311465]Doesn't the Makita router make fast, accurate work of such projects James.


 Great to use Harry. If one takes one's time and maintains the correct direction of feed. The funny thing was, now having 5 routers, it took 1 hour to pick which router I would use......LOL




> It sure is easier to calculate the offset than a 7/8" guide and a 5/16" bit.


 Even for my tired old grey matter......(although, as you are, being trained in both methods [and having to do maths before calculators], it is not too hard. I do know which which is the numerator and denominator)


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

gwizz said:


> It's OK Harry we know that your really just Jealous cuz’ Austrailia like Great Briton does not have routers with built in flux capacitors, like the rest of us, which have two distinct advantages, a) lots ( and I mean LOTS ) of power and b) these routers can go back and correct mistakes before they happened and in nanometres, picometres even, if you skilled, in angstroms.
> 
> But Hey when your good you never need to correct mistakes !
> 
> ...


I'll be forever greatful Richard if you come accross a website where they have them on special if you'll let me have the URL.


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Marcel M said:


> Phil, did you like my international symbol examples?


Yes. The one on marriage I _can_ relate to!

Regards

Phil


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

gwizz said:


> Great Briton does not have routers with built in flux capacitors, like the rest of us, which have two distinct advantages, a) lots ( and I mean LOTS ) of power


Hi Richard

Speaking as an ordinary Briton of somewhat limited stature (as opposed to a Great Briton) I have to say that due to fluctuations in International exchange rates a British HP these days is worth more than the rather over-inflated Canadian or US ones. A quick scan of the market seems to put the exchange rate at 1 HP UK = 1.33 HP US (so not quite as good as the dollar exchange rate). If you don't understand what the effect of metrication and standardisation has been on the HP exchange rates, how can you possibly make any form of valid comparison?

Yours faithfully

E. L. Whisty


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## gwizz (Mar 3, 2012)

Very Good but, when you refer to HP are we talking Horse Power or Hay Pennies ( Hey Pennies ? )


----------



## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

gwizz said:


> Hay Pennies


That doe not compute! Got rid of them quite a few years back!

Regards

Phil


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

Okay Harry, I finally received my 40 mm router template guide bushing.


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Marcel M said:


> Okay Harry, I finally received my 40 mm router template guide bushing.


Surely you mean a 1-147/256in, don't you? :haha:

Regards

Phil


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

Phil P said:


> Surely you mean a 1-147/256in, don't you? :haha:
> 
> Regards
> 
> Phil


I can't count that high. I only have ten fingers.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Marcel M said:


> Okay Harry, I finally received my 40 mm router template guide bushing.


Now Marcel you are about to appreciate all the advantages that a template guide with such a large internal diameter offers like greater depth of cut because the collet can penetrate the guide, you will be able to SEE exactly what the bit is doing, a greater range of bits can be used safely and of course the debris won't compact and cause extra heating of the bit. You are in for a treat.


----------



## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

harrysin said:


> Perth, the first or second most isolated place in the world.


and I thought Macomb, IL where I live was the most isolated place in the world!


----------



## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

harrysin said:


> Now Marcel you are about to appreciate all the advantages that a template guide with such a large internal diameter offers like greater depth of cut because the collet can penetrate the guide, you will be able to SEE exactly what the bit is doing, a greater range of bits can be used safely and of course the debris won't compact and cause extra heating of the bit. You are in for a treat.


That's great Harry except that it is absolutely useless on any of my templates.


----------



## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Me Too LOL


==



Marcel M said:


> That's great Harry except that it is absolutely useless on any of my templates.


----------



## Chris Curl (Feb 13, 2012)

Marcel M said:


> That's great Harry except that it is absolutely useless on any of my templates.


sorry ... i have to ask ...

if you have no use for it, then why did you get it? on a dare?


----------



## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

*Consequences of Harry's Advice*

I will be able to use it on future templates only so currently it is useless.  So now I need to decide if it is worth the trouble to modify my current templates.


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

mftha said:


> and I thought Macomb, IL where I live was the most isolated place in the world!


Tom my friend, it's good to see you on the forum and feeling well enought to crack a joke!

Perth the second most isolated capital city in the world


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## R.J. (Jun 1, 2012)

The imperial system doesn't work in Russia. Though.
Carving on pipes only inches.
We use imperial names for the metric.
(timber, liquid, weight)
But it is a habit.


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Welcome to the thread George, some more details about Russian weights and measures would be interesting. "Carving on pipes only inches" has, I think lost something in the translation.


----------



## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

"... "Carving on pipes only inches" has, I think lost something in the translation. "

Pipe threading? Standard N. American pipe threads?


----------



## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

Marcel M said:


> I will be able to use it on future templates only so currently it is useless.  So now I need to decide if it is worth the trouble to modify my current templates.


No need to *use* it. It's metric. From what I have learned reading this thread, just _*having*_ it should improve your woodworking!


----------



## Santé (Jan 14, 2010)

In belgium and probably in much of continental Europe remains the Imperial system for iron pipe. Copper and plastic pipe (more recent) are metric.
Where it remains Imperial is for wood, in some countries they say for example 6/4 inch and in others it says 1 inch 1/2.
Where the imperial system is and seems to settle is for computer where everything is in inch, (ex: bpi). This is a shame.


----------



## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Dmeadows said:


> No need to *use* it. It's metric. From what I have learned reading this thread, just _*having*_ it should improve your woodworking!


Just _thinking_ metric makes me almost orgasmic...


----------



## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

Dmeadows said:


> No need to *use* it. It's metric. From what I have learned reading this thread, just _*having*_ it should improve your woodworking!


I guess that I'm progressing into awesomeness.


----------



## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

DaninVan said:


> Just _thinking_ metric makes me almost orgasmic...


Oh my!!!


----------



## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

Santé said:


> In belgium and probably in much of continental Europe remains the Imperial system for iron pipe. Copper and plastic pipe (more recent) are metric.
> Where it remains Imperial is for wood, in some countries they say for example 6/4 inch and in others it says 1 inch 1/2.
> Where the imperial system is and seems to settle is for computer where everything is in inch, (ex: bpi). This is a shame.


It sounds like a mess Santé.


----------



## R.J. (Jun 1, 2012)

DaninVan said:


> "... "Carving on pipes only inches" has, I think lost something in the translation. "
> 
> Pipe threading? Standard N. American pipe threads?





Right. We use BSW (British Standard Whitworth).


----------



## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

R.J. said:


> Right. We use BSW (British Standard Whitworth).


George

Did you know that Rolls-Royce still use BSW threads for some parts in their aero engines? (or at least they did a few years back) And that there is a DIN standard to cover it? 

Regards

Phil


----------



## R.J. (Jun 1, 2012)

Phil P said:


> George
> 
> Did you know that Rolls-Royce still use BSW threads for some parts in their aero engines? (or at least they did a few years back) And that there is a DIN standard to cover it?
> 
> ...



I really do not speak English. I apologize.
Google does not help.)))

It's amazing.
I worked as a lathe and can do inch thread.
It's not difficult for a specialist.


Russia has its own standard. DIN for Europe. I think.


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

DaninVan said:


> Just _thinking_ metric makes me almost orgasmic...


In that case Dan, just wait until you use router skis for the first time, I recall that I described the feeling as similar to having sex, but I did add that I was going from memory!


----------



## PeterGee (Dec 4, 2012)

Speaking as someone that was brought up in the Imperial system I can only add my voice to the OP when he talks of the utter stupidity of Imperial over Metric systems.

For a top of my head example. how about diving 11 13/16" into 5 equal parts - easy, eh? 
I didn't think so...


----------



## boogalee (Nov 24, 2010)

PeterGee said:


> Speaking as someone that was brought up in the Imperial system I can only add my voice to the OP when he talks of the utter stupidity of Imperial over Metric systems.
> 
> For a top of my head example. how about diving 11 13/16" into 5 equal parts - easy, eh?
> I didn't think so...


Fairly easy. :haha:


----------



## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Round up (or down by a 1/16" ). 11 7/8 or 11 3/4 is no big deal... the extra 1/16 divided into 5 parts is negligible. If you want accuracy in Imperial you use the decimal function.
Every drill register I've ever seen has the equivalents stamped into the case, so what's the big deal? If you want to use metric, knock your socks off, as they say. But frankly this carping on Imperial is getting old.


----------



## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

DaninVan said:


> Round up (or down by a 1/16" ). 11 7/8 or 11 3/4 is no big deal... the extra 1/16 divided into 5 parts is negligible. If you want accuracy in Imperial you use the decimal function.
> Every drill register I've ever seen has the equivalents stamped into the case, so what's the big deal? If you want to use metric, knock your socks off, as they say. But frankly this carping on Imperial is getting old.


We are able to deal with Imperial measurements because we were raised with them and as a result are able to find work arounds like your drill register example. I always use decimals, base 10, and can recite many decimal to fractional equivalents verbatim. That being said I have come to realize that I do this because it is much easier to calculate via base 10 than through fractional measurements. Base 10 is the basis for metric measurement systems and is easy to master, just move decimals and zero's around. In my prior posts I did point out that there is a downside which is enduring the change over from Imperial to Metric. This was demonstrated by my posts concerning the 40 mm guide bushing and having to reconstruct my templates to use it. In conclusion I believe that changing over is a short term problem with long term benefits. Now I need to change my templates.......crap.


----------



## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

DaninVan said:


> Round up (or down by a 1/16" ). 11 7/8 or 11 3/4 is no big deal... the extra 1/16 divided into 5 parts is negligible. If you want accuracy in Imperial you use the decimal function.
> Every drill register I've ever seen has the equivalents stamped into the case, so what's the big deal? If you want to use metric, knock your socks off, as they say. But frankly this carping on Imperial is getting old.


Agreed. Actually got old quite a while ago!


----------



## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-iKcoNSjodCg/UL4oAoQvFbI/AAAAAAAASEc/fW7pldpsK_o/s1600/oacg656.gif

....


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

boogalee said:


> Fairly easy. :haha:


Oh dear, you're at a mates place and you've left the divider at home!


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

DaninVan said:


> http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-iKcoNSjodCg/UL4oAoQvFbI/AAAAAAAASEc/fW7pldpsK_o/s1600/oacg656.gif
> 
> ....


Anyone who feels that this thread is going in circles can of course put a personal block on the thread.


----------



## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

That's not the point, Harry. All that can be said about the merits of either system has been said. Now it's just down to (my point much earlier) disrespecting the other guys' choice of what measurement system he/she prefers.
"The Utter Stupidity..." most certainly reflects on those of us who use it.
If I block the thread, that doesn't in effect stop others from casting aspersions as to my being retarded; I just won't know about it. Not really in keeping with the 'respectful of other members' protocol?


----------



## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

DaninVan said:


> That's not the point, Harry. All that can be said about the merits of either system has been said. Now it's just down to (my point much earlier) disrespecting the other guys' choice of what measurement system he/she prefers.
> "The Utter Stupidity..." most certainly reflects on those of us who use it.
> If I block the thread, that doesn't in effect stop others from casting aspersions as to my being retarded; I just won't know about it. Not really in keeping with the 'respectful of other members' protocol?


Again, I agree Dan. If I started a thread called "The Utter Stupidity of buying a (_Insert your favourite router brand here_) Router", I would expect it to be censored. Not sure why this has been allowed to continue as long as it has. Open discussion is one thing, this is something else.

A rose by any other name...
Slander by any other name... or at least derogatory.


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

I wonder how many views and posts there would have been had I called the thread "metric and Imperial". For the many years that I was in business I wrote my own "catchy" advertisements and believe me, they were VERY successful. Judging by the number of views, I would hazzard a guess that members log in to see what's happening on a daily basis. As has been said by several members, a thread will die when members cease to view it.
Here is a sample of a tiny classified add. in the daily newspaper:

swap a five cent phone call for a free quote for repairs to your TV or radiogram

Picture tubes replaced in your home today, free quotes

These two adds ensured that for years I was averaging close to TWENTY calls each day, which I started at 10.00am and I would arrive home around 10.00pm. Needless to say, a social life was just about non existant.


----------



## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

harrysin said:


> I wonder how many views and posts there would have been had I called the thread "metric and Imperial". For the many years that I was in business I wrote my own "catchy" advertisements and believe me, they were VERY successful. Judging by the number of views, I would hazzard a guess that members log in to see what's happening on a daily basis. As has been said by several members, a thread will die when members cease to view it.
> Here is a sample of a tiny classified add. in the daily newspaper:
> 
> swap a five cent phone call for a free quote for repairs to your TV or radiogram
> ...


There is a difference between clever advertising and rude insulting titles. Sorry that you don't seem to understand that.


----------



## BRAVOGOLFTANGO (Oct 11, 2012)

Dmeadows said:


> There is a difference between clever advertising and rude insulting titles. Sorry that you don't seem to understand that.


Meh, give poor old Harry a break, we'll all look back one day and whilst yapping about the good old woodworking days on earth atop a cumulus cloud (I plan on Heaven lol), we'll all chuckle about Harry rowling up...well....freaking planet earth with his "puny Americans and their fixed routers and stupid imperial measurements.

I'd personally throw another prawn on the barby with Harry and drink a ...wait...oh yeah FOSTERS with him....:big_boss:


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

SI users suffering from low sperm count.
French scientists warn sperm counts falling for men - CBS News


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## BRAVOGOLFTANGO (Oct 11, 2012)

DaninVan said:


> SI users suffering from low sperm count.
> French scientists warn sperm counts falling for men - CBS News


lmao, this thread gets better with age...the thread that just keeps giving and giving...:jester:


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

DaninVan said:


> SI users suffering from low sperm count.
> French scientists warn sperm counts falling for men - CBS News


Does this mean that we will have to try harder and more often ......for the sake of mankind?


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

harrysin said:


> Oh dear, you're at a mates place and you've left the divider at home!


Hi Harry

Just use simple geometry? I was taught how to divide lines into any number of odd length segments using a pait of compasses, a straight edge and a set square. standard drawing office practice back in the day before CAD...... :sarcastic:



DaninVan said:


> SI users suffering from low sperm count.
> French scientists warn sperm counts falling for men - CBS News


And you guys aren't? I seem to recall big concerns about groundwater cantamination in places like Ohio quite a few years back........ Get real, Dan, you'll be telling us next that "REAL" men drink Budweiser (or Schlitz, or Michelob, etc, etc) when Ozzies will tell you it's Fosters (or Swan, etc) :sarcastic:

I'm waiting for somebody to tell me that SI saws are less virile. Oh, wait, somebody's already tried that one........ 

Regards

Phil


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

Phil P said:


> Hi Harry
> 
> ........ Get real, Dan, you'll be telling us next that "REAL" men drink Budweiser (or Schlitz, or Michelob, etc, etc) when Ozzies will tell you it's Fosters (or Swan, etc) :sarcastic:
> 
> ...


Wait a minute mate Fosters is not Australian it is owned by some foreigners. Coopers is truly Australian.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Dmeadows said:


> There is a difference between clever advertising and rude insulting titles. Sorry that you don't seem to understand that.


Duane, the more that I think about your post the more I realise how poor your interpretation of the title of the thread is. The title says that the SYSTEM is stupid NOT the poor people who have been brought up with it as the only system.
I must repeat my qualifications for starting this thread. My first 31 or so years were spent in Imperial countries and the next 48 years in a metric one so I reckon that is ample experience of the two systems to make a judgment.


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Marcel M said:


> Wait a minute mate Fosters is not Australian it is owned by some foreigners. Coopers is truly Australian.


Frankly, Marcel, I couldn't give a XXXX. I'm going to Swan off and do some more CAD now.....









Bye y'all

Phil


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Posts like that Phil. tells me that I am right in starting threads like this, they get members "talking" to each other often with some humour which livens up what at times becomes a rather dull forum.
By the way, I've just realised that to ensure that all Americans understood the monetary system, it was made in simple METRIC!


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

harrysin said:


> Duane, the more that I think about your post the more I realise how poor your interpretation of the title of the thread is. The title says that the SYSTEM is stupid NOT the poor people who have been brought up with it as the only system.
> I must repeat my qualifications for starting this thread. My first 31 or so years were spent in Imperial countries and the next 48 years in a metric one so I reckon that is ample experience of the two systems to make a judgment.


I agree with you Harry. I too was raised in the Imperial system. I began learning metric at University when I started studying physics. Then I moved to Canada and they began metrification in the 70s. It's true that we are not all the way there yet. I pretty much know when I have a good deal in kilograms at the supermarket by now. Every Canadian knows the price per litre of gasoline or diesel. I still convert temperature to Fahrenheit once in a while but metric makes way more sense. Building materials are a little tougher because we are geared to export to the USA so almost all of those are Imperial. Same with router bits. Most are geared to the US market. 

That doesn't change the fact that the Imperial measuring system is just plain stupid. It may be what you are used to, but it is still stupid. There is no uniformity to the Imperial system. 12 inches to the foot. 3 feet to the yard. 5280 feet to the mile. 16 ounces to the pound. 2000 pounds to the ton. It goes on and on and not one measure is similar in units to another. 

If you just want to say that the Imperial system is what you are used to and you don't want to change, that is up to each and every one. But the metric system is the only one that makes any sense. No amount of arguing or discussion will change that.


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> There is no uniformity to the Imperial system. 12 inches to the foot. 3 feet to the yard. 5280 feet to the mile. 16 ounces to the pound. 2000 pounds to the ton. It goes on and on and not one measure is similar in units to another.


And that's before you get to rods, poles, perches, furlongs, chains, acres, etc, etc :fie:


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## AndyL (Jun 3, 2011)

Phil P said:


> And that's before you get to rods, poles, perches, furlongs, chains, acres, etc, etc :fie:


To misquote Grandpa Simpson, my car does 90 leagues to the firkin and that's the way I like it


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## PeterGee (Dec 4, 2012)

It seems to me that there is more than a sensible amount of "my team" associated with defending the old imperial system of measurement. I can say this more easily than most being in the country that actually devised the original system, then changed to the metric system - despite the illogical complaints of those that simply hate any form of change. I always assumed that logic played a great part in making things - wood, metal, pastic or whatever else you fancy - and continue to be surprised at the 'stick in the mud' attitudes of some people, despite them needing a flexible mindset if they are ever to accomplish making anything. 

He says, sitting on his sackbutt...


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## JCJCJC (May 15, 2012)

Phil P said:


> And that's before you get to rods, poles, perches, furlongs, chains, acres, etc, etc :fie:


Rods, and indeed roods! And don't forget Irish miles, English Miles, Nautical Miles, Irish acres, statute acres...
In the West of Ireland, there's perhaps a more intelligent system. Land is measured in grass - ie 'the grass of six cows'. It works.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

JCJCJC said:


> Rods, and indeed roods! And don't forget Irish miles, English Miles, Nautical Miles, Irish acres, statute acres...
> In the West of Ireland, there's perhaps a more intelligent system. Land is measured in grass - ie 'the grass of six cows'. It works.


I hadn't heard of that measure before. The Forest Service in British Columbia, Canada leases land that has been recently logged to ranchers for grazing. It is advertised as grazing for xxx number of cow/calf pairs. But I think that they first measure the hectares and then figure out how many cow/calf pairs it will feed. Maybe it would work in reverse too.
There is another measure that Phil didn't mention that has always confounded me. When someone who likes horses tells me that their horse is so many hands high I just nod and say okay (whatever). I automatically wonder who's hand they are using. Centimeters or inches would mean more.


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> ....There is another measure that Phil didn't mention that has always confounded me. When someone who likes horses tells me that their horse is so many hands high I just nod and say okay (whatever). I automatically wonder who's hand they are using. Centimeters or inches would mean more.


With origins in ancient Egypt, it was originally based on the breadth of a human hand. It is today equal to four inches or 10.16 centimeters. A horse is measured from the ground to the top of the highest non-variable point of the skeleton, the withers. Miniature horses, but not miniature ponies, may be measured at the base of the last true hairs of the mane rather than at the withers.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Marcel M said:


> With origins in ancient Egypt, it was originally based on the breadth of a human hand. It is today equal to four inches or 10.16 centimeters. A horse is measured from the ground to the top of the highest non-variable point of the skeleton, the withers. Miniature horses, but not miniature ponies, may be measured at the base of the last true hairs of the mane rather than at the withers.


Can't I just pull out a tape measure and read the centimeters?:lol: Not meaning any disrespect to horse lovers but I've always been more interested in horse power. Less temperamental as a rule and when I park it I don't have to feed it or clean up after it.

By the way, have any horse lovers thought that after 4000 years it might be time to adopt a new measuring system?


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> When someone who likes horses tells me that their horse is so many hands high I just nod and say okay (whatever). I automatically wonder who's hand they are using. Centimeters or inches would mean more.


A hand! Wonderful measure - 4 inches, or the distance across the "average" human hand (so some room for discussion in a deal?) but not requiring the horse trader to carry a ruler or tape (as if the average horse trader would have such a thing)..... But the other "nice" thing about hands is that they are base 4, so there is no such thing as 15-3/4 hands or 15.75 hands, the correct measure is 15.3! You couldn't make it up - oh, sorry, somebody _did_ :jester:



Cherryville Chuck said:


> By the way, have any horse lovers thought that after 4000 years it might be time to adopt a new measuring system?


C'mon Charles - if they can't manage inches, what chance do they have with metric?

Regards

Phil


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## R.J. (Jun 1, 2012)

I have an imperial hammer, but no instructions!
I broke it.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Now isn't this how a forum should be,members joining in with humour but at the same time making their opnion on the subject matter known.


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## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

R.J. said:


> I have an imperial hammer, but no instructions!
> I broke it.


Did the same thing with my metric hammer!


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## cagenuts (May 8, 2010)

My wife says that when we were married I promised her *inches* but now it's only *centimetres* that are delivered.

Who can I blame?


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## R.J. (Jun 1, 2012)

cagenuts said:


> My wife says that when we were married I promised her *inches* but now it's only *centimetres* that are delivered.
> 
> Who can I blame?



:laugh:lol


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

harrysin said:


> Now isn't this how a forum should be,members joining in with humour but at the same time making their opnion on the subject matter known.


Yes Harry this is much more civilized.


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

cagenuts said:


> My wife says that when we were married I promised her *inches* but now it's only *centimetres* that are delivered.
> Who can I blame?



Tell her that it is not the meat but the motion that counts.


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## cagenuts (May 8, 2010)

Marcel M said:


> Tell her that it is not the meat but the motion that counts.


Is that in feet per minute or meters per second?


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

cagenuts said:


> My wife says that when we were married I promised her *inches* but now it's only *centimetres* that are delivered.
> 
> Who can I blame?


Fosters? Castlemaine? Black Swan? :jester:


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

cagenuts said:


> Is that in feet per minute or meters per second?


Actually, none of the above. This particular measurement is entirely dependent upon the individual performing the measurement. For a female it would be expressed as the moisture index (ranging from zero to full saturation) which is a unit of liquid measure. For an adult male it would be expressed as a unit of linear measure called a "rod". Finally for a pubescent male or an elderly male (IE one who "goes by memory") it would be expressed as a "hand". Please bear in mind that like the uncertainty principal in quantum physics all these measurements change by the very act of performing the measurement.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

There's no stopping you now Marcel!


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## PeterGee (Dec 4, 2012)

I can't stand Imperialism: I much prefer Democracy...


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

PeterGee said:


> I can't stand Imperialism: I much prefer Democracy...


But now that Silvio is coming back, will you get that in Italy? Thought you guys were all going to revert to such Imperial practices as toga wearing and bunga bunga parties :jester:

Regards

Phil


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## PeterGee (Dec 4, 2012)

Phil P said:


> But now that Silvio is coming back, will you get that in Italy? Thought you guys were all going to revert to such Imperial practices as toga wearing and bunga bunga parties :jester:
> 
> Regards
> 
> Phil


They go to prison for doing that - well, sometimes...:sarcastic:


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

i wanted to make a post that marked my first kilopost to be in this thread!
We need to keep it going.


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

mftha said:


> i want my first kilopost to be in this thread!
> We need to keep it going.


Yes, Tom, but how?


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

Phil P said:


> Yes, Tom, but how?


For example, by citing examples in which among other things lack of understanding of the SI harms those of us in the US. One example, in my profession metric is the standard. When I find third year college students have no sense of what the units mean, aside from the 2 L soft drink, I have to teach them how to use metric measurements before they can go on to the real content or carry out their research projects.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Congratulations my friend on reaching that magic number! It's good to see you back Tom, especially as you're in total agreement with me in THIS thread! Perhaps with an academic of your standing explaining the advantages of the metric system might help the remaining disbelievers to at least look into the metric system. I hope that you've had a pleasant Christmas.


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## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

harrysin said:


> Congratulations my friend on reaching that magic number! It's good to see you back Tom, especially as you're in total agreement with me in THIS thread! Perhaps with an academic of your standing explaining the advantages of the metric system might help the remaining disbelievers to at least look into the metric system. I hope that you've had a pleasant Christmas.


Harry, it is not a matter of disbelief. They are measuring systems, nothing more, except for the people for whom metric seems to be a religion. As with most religions, most people don't want it shoved down their throats. As with religion, some of us want to make our own choices.

Also financially it would be quite impractical to scrap 57 years(in my case) of investment in imperial tools and tooling. I do buy metric when I have a need for it, I use 35mm hinges(although my 1 3/8" forstner *still* fits them the best! I have absolutely nothing against metric, except that it forces me to have 2 sets of many tools, thus really only benefits the tool manufacturers.

But continually having someone attempt to jamb it down my throat, just makes me resist it that much more. I enjoy your many helpful posts, but this metric as a religion crap is getting old!


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Dmeadows said:


> Harry, it is not a matter of disbelief. They are measuring systems, nothing more, except for the people for whom metric seems to be a religion.


Hi Duane

I can work in both systems, although I'm _supposed_ to work in metric over here because that is the _standard_. I have no real problems working in either, although I prefer metric on grounds of speed and simplicity. Where I see problems here is when I come across people who are trying to do "on the fly" conversions from one system to another, such as working in metric from a set of Imperial-sizes plans or vice versa. Many times their conversions aren't accurate, or if they are they come out with really odd dimensions (thicknesses, etc) to cut timbers to. Much easier I find to redraw the darned thing in the appropriate system than mess about with conversions a lot of the time - but I have the advantage of owning a couple of CAD packages. The one that really got me when I worked in the USA a number of years back were the guys who tried to convert "System 32" (a cabinet making system based on multiples of 32mm) to Imperial sizes and were having problems. Some things can't be converted that way and are best left in their original metrological system IMHO

I've not long finished doing some CAD conversions from Imperial to metric for one firm where new tool paths were required for a new CNC router which is optimised for metric. Because some of the panel sizes, thicknesses, etc changing a decision was taken to revise everything, add-in the many real life changes the production line had made over a number of years (but never included in the drawings), do a bit of panel optimisation and generally tidy things up a bit. Interestingly their subsidiary in the USA is also metricating in the same way in the New Year.

Regards

Phil


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## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

Phil, I totally agree that conversion is a bit of a pain. But here, even that is an occasional issue. And for some thing neither are that great, but that is a matter of trying to measure infinitely variable things with a fixed finite unit. And then there are things like pi that defy any system of measurement.

So, I guess the bottom line is, as long as humans are involved, there will always be errors and always be difference of opinion. But still no need to make a religion of it.


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## dsbock (Apr 24, 2010)

All this talk about Metric versus Imperial measuring systems is well enough.

However, outside my workshop, my day job involves graphic design. Points, Pica, Ciceros, Agates, and Pixels.

Take that! 

David


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Amen to that ..


===

==



Dmeadows said:


> Phil, I totally agree that conversion is a bit of a pain. But here, even that is an occasional issue. And for some thing neither are that great, but that is a matter of trying to measure infinitely variable things with a fixed finite unit. And then there are things like pi that defy any system of measurement.
> 
> So, I guess the bottom line is, as long as humans are involved, there will always be errors and always be difference of opinion. But still no need to make a religion of it.


----------



## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

dsbock said:


> All this talk about Metric versus Imperial measuring systems is well enough.
> 
> However, outside my workshop, my day job involves graphic design. Points, Pica, Ciceros, Agates, and Pixels.
> 
> ...


And they work fine for their intended purpose, don't they!


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## dsbock (Apr 24, 2010)

Dmeadows said:


> dsbock said:
> 
> 
> > All this talk about Metric versus Imperial measuring systems is well enough.
> ...


Ciceros and Agates have mostly been supplanted by Points and Pica. But other than that, yes. I also work with inches, decimal inches, emms, and enns.

They all have their place and in that place they work perfectly well. I doubt any carpenter would measure a thickness in Pica, but they could.

David


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

dsbock said:


> All this talk about Metric versus Imperial measuring systems is well enough.
> 
> However, outside my workshop, my day job involves graphic design. Points, Pica, Ciceros, Agates, and Pixels.
> 
> ...


Ah, but INSIDE your workshop what to you prefer David?


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Dmeadows said:


> Harry, it is not a matter of disbelief. They are measuring systems, nothing more, except for the people for whom metric seems to be a religion. As with most religions, most people don't want it shoved down their throats. As with religion, some of us want to make our own choices.
> 
> Also financially it would be quite impractical to scrap 57 years(in my case) of investment in imperial tools and tooling. I do buy metric when I have a need for it, I use 35mm hinges(although my 1 3/8" forstner *still* fits them the best! I have absolutely nothing against metric, except that it forces me to have 2 sets of many tools, thus really only benefits the tool manufacturers.
> 
> But continually having someone attempt to jamb it down my throat, just makes me resist it that much more. I enjoy your many helpful posts, but this metric as a religion crap is getting old!


Duane, two things, one, no one is forcing you to follow this or any other thread, second, I constantly use both systems, probably about half my tools are Imperial. It is MY opinion that the Imperial system is stupid compared to metric. Even America realised this and opted to use METRIC for the monetary system!


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## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

harrysin said:


> Duane, two things, one, no one is forcing you to follow this or any other thread, second, I constantly use both systems, probably about half my tools are Imperial. It is MY opinion that the Imperial system is stupid compared to metric. Even America realised this and opted to use METRIC for the monetary system!


Nickels, quarters, $5, $20, $50, and the occasional $2 bill suggest only partial commitment to that, even if there are 100 pennys or ten dimes to the dollar. The comparison kinda falls apart beyond that! Many children(and adults for that matter) have just as much trouble with money counting as with fractions!

Harry, of course you are entitled to your opinion, but there still need to force the issue. The USA decided way back in the 1970,s to change to metric, if not before. Didn't happen completely then, not going to happen completely any time soon. Metric is growing here, but far from universally accepted or wanted! Course you knew that! I doubt this 69 page diatribe has changed anyones opinion, nor likely will it. Believe it or not, we have known about metric for a very long time. That all I'm saying. So if it makes you feel better to evangelize the metric religion, so be it! But when all is said and done, it's _*still*_ just a measuring system, not gonna change the world in any meaningful way!


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Dmeadows said:


> But when all is said and done, it's _*still*_ just a measuring system, not gonna change the world in any meaningful way!


Actually Duane that isn't true. Until the metric system was devised, all measuring system standards were regionally based. The reason that the metric system was devised was to develop a world standard, or at least a European standard that would make trade easier. It also made scientific calculations easier and more accurate. For example, work is measured by the amount of energy it takes to move a mass a specified distance. The horsepower was invented by James Watt and was derived by his observations on how much work a horse could do in one minute. The metric measure is absolute. The imperial one depends on how big the horse is, how energetic it feels today, etc.

So metric already has changed the world. I suspect that the only reason that the imperial system is still around is because the US has been the #1 economic power for the last (6?) decades. That is due to change within the next few years (or maybe as soon as January) as China takes over the #1 spot. At some point in the not too distant future it will cease to be used anymore and it will be because of what Harry said when he started this thread.


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> Actually Duane that isn't true. Until the metric system was devised, all measuring system standards were regionally based. The reason that the metric system was devised was to develop a world standard, or at least a European standard that would make trade easier. It also made scientific calculations easier and more accurate. For example, work is measured by the amount of energy it takes to move a mass a specified distance. The horsepower was invented by James Watt and was derived by his observations on how much work a horse could do in one minute. The metric measure is absolute. The imperial one depends on how big the horse is, how energetic it feels today, etc.
> 
> So metric already has changed the world. I suspect that the only reason that the imperial system is still around is because the US has been the #1 economic power for the last (6?) decades. That is due to change within the next few years (or maybe as soon as January) as China takes over the #1 spot. At some point in the not too distant future it will cease to be used anymore and it will be because of what Harry said when he started this thread.


Absolutely correct. The following is a breakdown of economic powerhouses:

United States
Country Rank: #1

GDP- Purchasing Power Parity: $14.66 trillion (As of 2010)

Contribution of Industrial Sector in GDP: 22.1%

Contribution of Agricultural Sector in GDP: 1.1%

Contribution of Services Sector in GDP: 76.8% (As of 2010)

Population: 312,222,000 (As of 2011)

Unemployment Rate: 9.6% (As of 2010)

China
Country Rank: #2

GDP- Purchasing Power Parity: 10.09 trillion (As of 2010)

Contribution of Industrial Sector in GDP: 46.9%

Contribution of Agricultural Sector in GDP: 10.2%

Contribution of Services Sector in GDP: 43% (As of 2010)

Population: 1,339,724,852 (As of 2010)

Unemployment Rate: 4.3% (As of 2009)

Japan
Country Rank: #3

GDP- Purchasing Power Parity: 4.31 trillion (As of 2010)

Contribution of Industrial Sector in GDP: 24.9%

Contribution of Agricultural Sector in GDP: 1.4%

Contribution of Services Sector in GDP: 73.8% (As of 2010)

Population: 127,960,000 (As of 2011)

Unemployment Rate: 5% (As of 2010)

India
Country Rank: #4

GDP- Purchasing Power Parity: 4.06 trillion (As of 2010)

Contribution of Industrial Sector in GDP: 26.3%

Contribution of Agricultural Sector in GDP: 18.5%

Contribution of Services Sector in GDP: 55.2% (As of 2010)

Population: 1,210,193,422 (As of 2011)

Unemployment Rate: 10.8% (As of 2010)

Germany
Country Rank: #5

GDP- Purchasing Power Parity: 2.940 trillion (As of 2010)

Contribution of Industrial Sector in GDP: 27.8%

Contribution of Agricultural Sector in GDP: 0.9%

Contribution of Services Sector in GDP: 71.3% (As of 2010)

Population: 81,799,600 (As of 2010)

Unemployment Rate: 7.1% (As of 2010)


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## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> The horsepower was invented by James Watt and was derived by his observations on how much work a horse could do in one minute. The metric measure is absolute. The imperial one depends on how big the horse is, how energetic it feels today, etc.


Puhleeze! The HP has been standardized here since before I was born and it has NOTHING to do with metric. Or how tired my, or your horse is!:laugh:

There is a difference between accuracy and precision and both can be obtained with either system! Yes, my inch must be the same as your inch, but that is also true of mm or meters... that is the whole idea of standards!

There is a difference in the math involved, to add, or subtract measurement. Quite true. If I want to divide a random length into say, 7 pieces, the math can be fairly ugly in either system! Calculators and such have made that much easy in either system as well. But that does NOT effect the accuracy obtainable with either system.

As for the political and economic climates, I agree. And that may indeed drive the USA closer to metric, but then again a lot of commerce has already been there! But for most woodworkers here, I still say not that much will change anytime soon!


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

Although the largest manufacturing based economies will dictate which system will be used throughout the world I believe that the transition has and will be slow in the US.


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## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

Marcel M said:


> Although the largest manufacturing based economies will dictate which system will be used throughout the world I believe that the transition has and will be slow in the US.


If that was the only factor involved, the world would have been on imperial for the last 60 years! Global trade will eventually force the change. On that I agree.

It's kind of a VHS/Beta thing!


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Dmeadows said:


> Puhleeze! The HP has been standardized here since before I was born and it has NOTHING to do with metric. Or how tired my, or your horse is!:laugh:
> 
> There is a difference between accuracy and precision and both can be obtained with either system! Yes, my inch must be the same as your inch, but that is also true of mm or meters... that is the whole idea of standards!
> 
> ...


The horsepower has been standardized at moving 1 lb 33,000 feet in one minute but it got its start as I pointed out. It was almost totally arbitrary as were all imperial measures. That was the point of the metric system is that nothing was arbitrary. By the way, up until 70 years ago the US and British inches were slightly different and when we started making rifle parts to help out with their war effort the parts didn't always fit so the inches were standardized as being 25.4mm. That is, the inch has been based on a metric standard for the last 70 years.

As far as when the change will occur you may be right. But if all our bits and building materials become metric sized and no longer match up with any mark on your tapes and rulers you might change your mind.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Marcel M said:


> Although the largest manufacturing based economies will dictate which system will be used throughout the world I believe that the transition has and will be slow in the US.


I would guess that most of the US's exports are converted to metric in order to be sold. Canada requires it by law and I suspect that many other countries do too. 

When I work on a vehicle I need metric and imperial tools and that goes for the Kenworth I drive at work and the Dodge I use to get there. The foreign companies that make parts for them are not willing to retool to imperial just to make parts for the US and Canada. I think that Canada would have already made a complete transition except for the fact that the US is our largest trading partner. I suspect that there is also pressure for the US to use metric sized parts on equipment that they export where there is competition from foreign companies. Why would a mechanic in another country want to buy a set of imperial sized tools just so he can work on equipment made in the US? It's issues like that that will force the transition.


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

When I was young my first set of hand tools were Metric. My first vehicle was a Kawasaki motorcycle and then came and Volkswagen Bug followed by an MGB, that forced me into buying Imperial tools, and then a Jaguar e type. By age 21 I bought my first american car, a 1970 Plymouth AAR 'Cuda. I now have a rather large assortment of both Metric and Imperial.


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

Dmeadows said:


> If that was the only factor involved, the world would have been on imperial for the last 60 years! Global trade will eventually force the change. On that I agree.
> 
> It's kind of a VHS/Beta thing!


Yes, and although Beta was a better system it was VHS that won out because of politics.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

"It's kind of a VHS/Beta thing!"


Not really a good analogy. Whilst beta, for provable technical reasons gave better resolution, VHS hit the stores first and when the sales reps. from Sony, Toshiba and Sanyo came around the stores were reluctant to have to stock two competing systems so from early on sales people were telling customers that Beta wasn't here to stay, so when a story is repeated often enough it sticks, hence the demise of the Beta system. Later a similar scenario was seen with Hi-def. video discs versus Blu ray. the latter being the winner. I'm hopeful that a similar thing will happen with METRIC versus IMPERIAL!


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> By the way, up until 70 years ago the US and British inches were slightly different and when we started making rifle parts to help out with their war effort the parts didn't always fit so the inches were standardized as being 25.4mm. That is, the inch has been based on a metric standard for the last 70 years.


Hi Charles

In *1930* the British Standards Institution adopted an inch of exactly 25.4 mm. The American Standards Association followed suit in *1933*. By 1935 industry in 16 countries had adopted the "industrial inch" as it came to be known. WWII started in 1939........



Marcel M said:


> When I was young my first set of hand tools were Metric. My first vehicle was a Kawasaki motorcycle and then came and Volkswagen Bug followed by an MGB, that forced me into buying Imperial tools, and then a Jaguar e type.


Did you know, Marcel, that in the UK we manufactured cars with Whitworth (BSW), Armstrong (BA) and British Standard Fine (BSF) threads until the early 1960s? Our government intervened to get car manufacturers to go metric and car makers did initially retool to UNF/UNC from the late 1950s onwards as an intermediate step - this was partly to improve export prospects (after all where do you buy BSW spanners/wrenches in the USA?). From the early 1970s UK-manufactured cars started to have an ever increasing quantity of metric threads with the final change occurring in the early 1980s. 

There was pressure from the scientific community in particular to metricate from as early as the 1840s - in fact in 1863, the House of Commons passed a bill by 110 votes to 75 which would have mandated the use of the metric system throughout the British Empire, but due to lack of parliamentary time the bill was not debated in the House of Lords and so did not become law, however the following year a Private Member's Bill legalising the use of metric measures did become law

The changeover to metric, when it happened in the UK, actually cut manufacturing overheads.. An example of a hard metrication changeover in the UK was the threaded fastener industry (nuts and bolts) where 21 "first choice" BSW, BSF and BA series thread in the range 0 BA to 1 inch plus another 20 UNC and UNF fasteners *were replaced by just seven metric sizes*. This resulted in considerable cost savings, not only due to the reduction in inventories, but also the numbers of taps, dies, tapping and clearance drills that workshops held

Regards

Phil


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

I still have a set of BA and BSF taps and a few dies that I brought out from England in 1964. I also have Whitworth, UNC, UNF and of course METRIC, plus the odd BSP, this being an international standard EXCEPT, you've guessed it, the USA where NPT is used.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Phil P said:


> Hi Charles
> 
> In *1930* the British Standards Institution adopted an inch of exactly 25.4 mm. The American Standards Association followed suit in *1933*. By 1935 industry in 16 countries had adopted the "industrial inch" as it came to be known. WWII started in 1939........
> 
> ...


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## J. Leigh (Jul 15, 2012)

Here in the US we never really did care what anyone else thought or said about us. Still don't for the most part.
About 200 or so years ago, when a foreign government thought they knew what was best for us, we whipped up a few able bodied men and promptly kicked the snot out of the monarchy and sent them back from whence they came with a bloody nose or two...
Now that nation and a great many others rely on us for protection.
We don't adapt well to having opinions or ideals forced on us. Never will. 
I can't believe how many posts have been written about metric vs imperial. Don't like the imperial system? Get over it. To tough to convert? Sorry. Deal.
I used to own a Leigh jig with its 8mm collet, found it a pain finding bits with 8mm shafts. Gave the jig away. Much easier using and finding 1/2" universal bits. Never gave metric a second though after that much less found the time to publically complain about it. 

This was posted with tongue firmly planted in cheek...hate to see grown men and women arguing over something that most likely will never change.


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

Phil P said:


> Hi Charles
> 
> In *1930* the British Standards Institution adopted an inch of exactly 25.4 mm. The American Standards Association followed suit in *1933*. By 1935 industry in 16 countries had adopted the "industrial inch" as it came to be known. WWII started in 1939........
> 
> ...


Yes, I am painfully aware of the standards of which you speak. The following are examples of other standards regarding screw thread forms. In particular applications and certain regions, threads other than the ISO metric screw threads remain commonly used, sometimes because of special application requirements, but mostly for reasons of backwards compatibility so like it or not the Imperial system is here to stay.

ASME B1.1 Unified Inch Screw Threads, (UN and UNR Thread Form), considered an American National Standard (ANS) widely use in the US and Canada

Unified Thread Standard (UTS), which is still the dominant thread type in the United States and Canada. This standard includes:

Unified Coarse (UNC), commonly referred to as "National Coarse" or "NC" in retailing.
Unified Fine (UNF), commonly referred to as "National Fine" or "NF" in retailing.
Unified Extra Fine (UNEF)
Unified Special (UNS)
National pipe thread (NPT), used for plumbing of water and gas pipes, and threaded electrical conduit.
NPTF (National Pipe Thread Fuel)

British Standard Whitworth (BSW), and for other Whitworth threads including:
British Standard Fine (BSF)
Cycle Engineers' Institute (CEI) or British Standard Cycle (BSC)
British standard pipe thread (BSP) which exists in a taper and non taper variant; used for other purposes as well
British Standard Pipe Taper (BSPT)
British Association screw threads (BA), primarily electronic/electrical, moving coil meters and to mount optical lenses
British Standard Buttress Threads (BS 1657:1950)
British Standard for Spark Plugs BS 45:1972
British Standard Brass a fixed pitch 26 tpi thread

Glass Packaging Institute threads (GPI), primarily for glass bottles and vials

Power screw threads

Acme thread form

Square thread form

Buttress thread

Camera case screws, used to mount a camera on a photographic tripod:
¼″ UNC used on almost all small cameras
⅜″ UNC for larger (and some older small) cameras

Royal Microscopical Society (RMS) thread, also known as society thread, is a special 0.8" diameter x 36 thread-per-inch (tpi) Whitworth thread form used for microscope objective lenses.

Microphone stands:
⅝″ 27 threads per inch (tpi) Unified Special thread (UNS, USA and the rest of the world)

¼″ BSW (not common in the USA, used in the rest of the world)

⅜″ BSW (not common in the USA, used in the rest of the world)

Stage lighting suspension bolts (in some countries only; some have gone entirely metric, others such as Australia have reverted to the BSW threads, or have never fully converted):
⅜″ BSW for lighter luminaires
½″ BSW for heavier luminaires

Tapping screw threads (ST) – ISO 1478

Aerospace inch threads (UNJ) – ISO 3161

Aerospace metric threads (MJ) – ISO 5855

Tyre valve threads (V) – ISO 4570

Metal bone screws (HA, HB) – ISO 5835

Panzergewinde (Pg) (German) is an old German 80° thread (DIN 40430) that remained in use until 2000 in some electrical installation accessories in Germany.

Fahrradgewinde (Fg) (English: bicycle thread) is a German bicycle thread standard (per DIN 79012 and DIN 13.1), which encompasses a lot of CEI and BSC threads as used on cycles and mopeds everywhere 

CEI (Cycle Engineers Institute, used on bicycles in Britain and possibly elsewhere)

Edison base Incandescent light bulb holder screw thread

Fire hose connection (NFPA standard 194)

Hose Coupling Screw Threads (ANSI/ASME B1.20.7-1991 [R2003]) for garden hoses and accessories

Löwenherz thread, a German metric thread used for measuring instruments

Sewing machine thread

When servicing an antique sewing machine and after a great deal of research I found that each major sewing machine company had their own screw thread design and that this was done purposefully. They wanted customers to come back to their company to buy attachments and spare parts and did not want compatibility between themselves. If you bought a Singer sewing machine you could not buy any other brand attachment that would work on that machine and it was the same with replacement parts.


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

harrysin said:


> "It's kind of a VHS/Beta thing!"
> 
> 
> Not really a good analogy. Whilst beta, for provable technical reasons gave better resolution, VHS hit the stores first and when the sales reps. from Sony, Toshiba and Sanyo came around the stores were reluctant to have to stock two competing systems so from early on sales people were telling customers that Beta wasn't here to stay, so when a story is repeated often enough it sticks, hence the demise of the Beta system. Later a similar scenario was seen with Hi-def. video discs versus Blu ray. the latter being the winner. I'm hopeful that a similar thing will happen with METRIC versus IMPERIAL!


Another format that died off quickly was the "Elcaset" made by Sony. The Elcaset system, an audio format, was intended to marry the performance of reel to reel with cassette convenience. The Elcaset also had all the features of deluxe open reel decks, such as separate heads for erase, recording, and playback, remote control, and heavy duty transports for low wow & flutter. The system was technically sound, but a complete failure in the marketplace, with a very low take up by a few audiophiles only. Apart from the problem of the bulky cassettes, the performance of standard cassettes had improved dramatically with the use of new materials such as chromium dioxide, Dolby B noise reduction, and better manufacturing quality. For most people, the quality of standard cassettes was adequate, and the benefits of the expensive Elcaset system limited. Audiophiles turned away from Elcaset and towards high-end cassette decks from companies like Nakamichi, which began making very high-quality tape decks using the regular audio cassette in late 1973. The tapes they made could be played on any standard cassette machine. Also, the machines were quite expensive.


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> I never did come across a set of Whitworth that I can recall although they must have been available somewhere.


I have, Charles, on almost every pre-1970 woodworking machine I've ever owned. Complete PITA as BSW is getting hard to source easily these days.

Regards

Phil


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

J. Leigh said:


> I used to own a Leigh jig with its 8mm collet, found it a pain finding bits with 8mm shafts. Gave the jig away. Much easier using and finding 1/2" universal bits. Never gave metric a second though after that much less found the time to publically complain about it.


Maybe, Joe, the problem is that your suppliers are also living in the twilight zone of 200 years ago. 8mm shanks are readily available in Europe, and apparently elsewhere, too...... If you don't learn to adapt to the changing world it will pass you by. For that reason I'd suggest learning mandarin )(or possibly Spanish) and going metric! You know it makes (commercial) sense

Regards

Phil


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## J. Leigh (Jul 15, 2012)

You're right Phil, Spanish for sure..


It just seems to me to be a silly argument. I own some metric sockets, combination wrenches and Allen wrenches and I use them when necessary. I understand the need for them, but for me that's only an occasional need. It's pretty evident that the US will never abandon it's imperial system of measurements, not in my lifetime anyway...


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

"not in my lifetime anyway..."

To make that profound statement Joe you must be close to my age, your profile doesn't make mention. I hope that in the six months that you've been a member you have derived some knowledge and amusement!


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Marcel M said:


> Another format that died off quickly was the "Elcaset" made by Sony. The Elcaset system, an audio format, was intended to marry the performance of reel to reel with cassette convenience. The Elcaset also had all the features of deluxe open reel decks, such as separate heads for erase, recording, and playback, remote control, and heavy duty transports for low wow & flutter. The system was technically sound, but a complete failure in the marketplace, with a very low take up by a few audiophiles only. Apart from the problem of the bulky cassettes, the performance of standard cassettes had improved dramatically with the use of new materials such as chromium dioxide, Dolby B noise reduction, and better manufacturing quality. For most people, the quality of standard cassettes was adequate, and the benefits of the expensive Elcaset system limited. Audiophiles turned away from Elcaset and towards high-end cassette decks from companies like Nakamichi, which began making very high-quality tape decks using the regular audio cassette in late 1973. The tapes they made could be played on any standard cassette machine. Also, the machines were quite expensive.


I could have devoted a lot of space recalling long since forgotten audio/video systems like the eight track cartridge which was developed in America for sales reps. who travelled long distances for them to learn about new products, especially in the pharmaceutical industry and so the high level of wow and flutter was of no consequence but when car makers like Toyota fitted them as standard in the early 60's, well, one had to have cloth ears to tolerate the W&F!
Black/white open reel video recorders were introduced in the early 70's, by Akai and Panasonic, non-compatible of course. Then Philips introduced a two hour colour recorder using a physically large cassette, this was followed by a three hour machine and guess what, the two were NOT compatible! Well after the failed Elcaset came a digital recorder from Philips using the standard compact cassette. I attended a demonstration of this machine which of course added no wow & flutter to the source signal and it's performance was like reel/reel at 15"/second. 
In mid 1974 I set up a service centre for what at the time was Australia's largest Hi-Fi retailer setting up a large branch here in the West, the company was Douglas Hi-Fi and amongst many other products I was responsible for Nakamichi, the model 1000 three head cassette deck being the standard by which my regular reviews were compared to.
By way of nostalgia, the first recorder of any kind that was placed before me as a very young semi-skilled technician was a Grundig R/R, a very sophisticated machine in 1950 compared to ones made in the UK which used three motors and the solenoid operated brakes were connected with BICYCLE SPOKES!
Ah well, that passed some time on this hot new years eve afternoon, it's far too hot to poke my head out of the air-conditioned house. A very happy new year to everyone, not only the ones who love me but also the ones who hate me but for some odd reason keep following my threads!


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## J. Leigh (Jul 15, 2012)

And a Happy New Year to you as well Harry...and let me say there are no haters here, nothing but respect for a fellow member who talks plain and straight.
In fact we had a similar concern here a few years back when the two of us tried to convince a certain member to share some background, knowledge and technique with the membership only to have that request met with resentment.

Oh well, good luck with this latest quest....


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## Santé (Jan 14, 2010)

Thank you Harry, for refreshing you, a beautiful landscape of Switzerland (photo from this morning)
And Happy New Year 2013 to all


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Thank you my friend, and I wish you and all your family all the best for 2013.
I was struggling with our 40° heat today and in fact we've had I think 7 consecutive days with temperatures over 37.5° but I wouldn't change it for for yours, as pretty as it is!


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

harrysin said:


> Congratulations my friend on reaching that magic number! It's good to see you back Tom, especially as you're in total agreement with me in THIS thread! Perhaps with an academic of your standing explaining the advantages of the metric system might help the remaining disbelievers to at least look into the metric system. I hope that you've had a pleasant Christmas.


Thank you very much Harry. I trust you had a very happy Christmas, and that now that it is 2013 in your part of the world, that you have a very Happy New Year.

To go back in history, my very first post to Router Forums, under the name th-alton, included a question about why the world of router use did not use metric measurements. To go way back, as a young teenager I discovered the metric system and it made so much sense to me that I learned it and did mental conversions.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

bill kay said:


> Just a thought,
> 
> Skilled engineers, using fractions and inches, as well as a slide rule or two developed everything from modern medicine, farming, aviation and space exploration. These enlightened engineers, again using fractions and inches, even put a man on the moon.
> 
> Possibly your difficulty with tried and true measurement scales is actually a training deficiency.


Don't be so sure about that. All of the physics I learned at the University of Alabama back in the late 60s- early 70s was in metric.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Imperial measurements ,,just like Charles said

Charles Heston 
From My Cold Dead Hands. 
Charlton Heston; From My Cold Dead Hands. Long Version - YouTube
5 stars out of 5 stars 

Now one just for fun of it...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMDNgFqyBLo&NR=1&feature=endscreen

==


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

harrysin said:


> I could have devoted a lot of space recalling long since forgotten audio/video systems like the eight track cartridge which was developed in America for sales reps. who travelled long distances for them to learn about new products, especially in the pharmaceutical industry and so the high level of wow and flutter was of no consequence but when car makers like Toyota fitted them as standard in the early 60's, well, one had to have cloth ears to tolerate the W&F!
> Black/white open reel video recorders were introduced in the early 70's, by Akai and Panasonic, non-compatible of course. Then Philips introduced a two hour colour recorder using a physically large cassette, this was followed by a three hour machine and guess what, the two were NOT compatible! Well after the failed Elcaset came a digital recorder from Philips using the standard compact cassette. I attended a demonstration of this machine which of course added no wow & flutter to the source signal and it's performance was like reel/reel at 15"/second.
> In mid 1974 I set up a service centre for what at the time was Australia's largest Hi-Fi retailer setting up a large branch here in the West, the company was Douglas Hi-Fi and amongst many other products I was responsible for Nakamichi, the model 1000 three head cassette deck being the standard by which my regular reviews were compared to.
> By way of nostalgia, the first recorder of any kind that was placed before me as a very young semi-skilled technician was a Grundig R/R, a very sophisticated machine in 1950 compared to ones made in the UK which used three motors and the solenoid operated brakes were connected with BICYCLE SPOKES!
> Ah well, that passed some time on this hot new years eve afternoon, it's far too hot to poke my head out of the air-conditioned house. A very happy new year to everyone, not only the ones who love me but also the ones who hate me but for some odd reason keep following my threads!


There are times in my life that I need to be nostalgic. Thanks for the trip down "failed products" lane Harry.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

mftha said:


> Thank you very much Harry. I trust you had a very happy Christmas, and that now that it is 2013 in your part of the world, that you have a very Happy New Year.
> 
> To go back in history, my very first post to Router Forums, under the name th-alton, included a question about why the world of router use did not use metric measurements. To go way back, as a young teenager I discovered the metric system and it made so much sense to me that I learned it and did mental conversions.


May I reciprocate your kind wishes Tom. I must confess that this wasn't the best Christmas ever, Marlene tripped and badly bruised her left leg on the brick paving on Christmas eve. which meant we couldn't go to the children's place for Christmas dinner. Instead they packed the cars and the family came here and set-up dinner with all the trimmings. It's just wonderful when kids turn out like that.
Perhaps now that this thread has an academic of your standing with no axe to grind, even more members will experiment with metric. Once again my friend, all the very best to you in this new year and hopefully your health will improve and we'll see the results from your router.


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## smart alex (Nov 20, 2011)

*What is...*

Being metric I am stumped, what is half of 9 13/16"? :fie:


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## cagenuts (May 8, 2010)

smart alex said:


> Being metric I am stumped, what is half of 9 13/16"? :fie:


4 29/32"

Even coming from the World's number 1 cricket nation, I worked that out


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Wouldn't it been far easier to have divided 250mm by 2 which is probably what the metric design would have called for. Bear in mind that once a country becomes metric things are designed in metric. Alex, whilst more and more Americans are becoming happy dealing with both Imperial and metric, there are still many who simply aren't prepared to experiment.


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## cutter79 (Oct 21, 2012)

One would think Australia has gone metric completely untill you pick up the Carb-I-Tool catalogue where a great number of cutters are sold imperial size as well as metric.
Sam


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Thanks for that ,it looks like there may be still some hope ,that they see the error of there way and just go for the easy way of the imperial way..and not have two router bit boxes for the router bits.  like I do for both metric and auto hand tools,drives me nuts...I just about always take the 13mm and the 1/2" to the car to work on it...it would be nice if they would stamp the head of the bolts with "A" or "M" or with a "J" for Junk fastener...

===






cutter79 said:


> One would think Australia has gone metric completely untill you pick up the Carb-I-Tool catalogue where a great number of cutters are sold imperial size as well as metric.
> Sam


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## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

bobj3 said:


> Thanks for that ,it looks like there may be still some hope ,that they see the error of there way and just go for the easy way of the imperial way..and not have two router bit boxes for the router bits.  like I do for both metric and auto hand tools,drives me nuts...I just about always take the 13mm and the 1/2" to the car to work on it...it would be nice if they would stamp the head of the bolts with "A" or "M" or with a "J" for Junk fastener...
> 
> ===


+1:yes4::yes4:


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## cagenuts (May 8, 2010)

bobj3 said:


> ..it would be nice if they would stamp the head of the bolts with "A" or "M" or with a "J" for Junk fastener...
> 
> ===


I assume "A" stands for "Anarchist"?


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

cagenuts said:


> I assume "A" stands for "Anarchist"?


and "J" stands for off shore....


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## cutter79 (Oct 21, 2012)

bobj3 said:


> Thanks for that ,it looks like there may be still some hope ,that they see the error of there way and just go for the easy way of the imperial way..and not have two router bit boxes for the router bits.  like I do for both metric and auto hand tools,drives me nuts...I just about always take the 13mm and the 1/2" to the car to work on it...it would be nice if they would stamp the head of the bolts with "A" or "M" or with a "J" for Junk fastener...
> 
> ===


bobj3
I was not advocating that we in Australia go Imperial as I personally do not see that the Imperial way is the way to go. I still prefer the metric system but Carb-i-tool must cater for the many businesses who still operate with imperial machines. It is a matter of preference what each of us want to use I have no objections to the US retaining the imperial standards but I object strongly to telling us we are wrong and to say the imperial system is the only way to go. 

I peronally will persevere with the metric system as it is the most covenient way of communicating with others here. Most would never have even heard of a 64ths 32nds or even 16ths and maybe not even 8ths of an inch, 1/4" 1/2" 3/4" maybe, but then you have to explain what an inch is to begin with.

There is nothing wrong with both systems; what is wrong is the negative attitude towards the system that is not being used. I can easily convert the imperial measurements produced to complete a project, and produce the article in the metric mode, and I have done it in the past, that is if I wish to produce the project published in such magazines published overseas. 

Looking through the forum I recall someone posting he had a tape measure with both imperial and metric (like we all do) only he admitted taking a black marker pen and simple obliterate the metric dimensions making the measurements unable to be used. In my mind that is the negative approach I was referring to.

Sam


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

cutter79 said:


> bobj3
> .......There is nothing wrong with both systems; what is wrong is the negative attitude towards the system that is not being used......
> Sam


So you disagree with the OP.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Maybe I'm still suffering from the effects of Christmas because I haven't a clue what the OP is.


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

harrysin said:


> Maybe I'm still suffering from the effects of Christmas because I haven't a clue what the OP is.


Harry, you need to get with the program buddy. OP means "Original Poster"


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## kt6762 (Jul 28, 2012)

cm,mm are used because fractions are to hard for workers to learn . its easier for them to teach them hole numbers.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

kt6762 said:


> cm,mm are used because fractions are to hard for workers to learn . its easier for them to teach them hole numbers.


units of ten as in ten fingers...
workers come with their own caculators...


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

Stick486 said:


> units of ten as in ten fingers...
> workers come with their own caculators...


That never worked out for me.


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

We had to have the garage door repaired. The Sears repairman told us that one of our problems was that we did not have a "large" enough motor on the opener. I thought for a minute, and said that we had the largest one Sears made at that time, a 1/2 horsepower. He shook his head and said, "Buddy, you need a 1/4 horsepower." I responded that 1/2 was larger than 1/4. He said, "NO, it's not." Four is larger than two.." :lol:


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

In Denver will call that type of guy a Rocky Flats Kid..
hahahahahahahahahaha LOL.

==



Marcel M said:


> That never worked out for me.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

marcel m said:


> that never worked out for me.


*snork!!!!*


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Marcel M said:


> Harry, you need to get with the program buddy. OP means "Original Poster"


Marcel, if you can still do all the things that I do when YOU reach the age of 79, then you will be very fortunate.


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

harrysin said:


> May I reciprocate your kind wishes Tom. I must confess that this wasn't the best Christmas ever, Marlene tripped and badly bruised her left leg on the brick paving on Christmas eve. which meant we couldn't go to the children's place for Christmas dinner. Instead they packed the cars and the family came here and set-up dinner with all the trimmings. It's just wonderful when kids turn out like that.
> Perhaps now that this thread has an academic of your standing with no axe to grind, even more members will experiment with metric. Once again my friend, all the very best to you in this new year and hopefully your health will improve and we'll see the results from your router.


Harry, I am so sorry that Marlene suffered a fall and injuries. I do pray that she is recovering well.
You are so blessed to have such a wonderful family.

i certainly do what I can to train students in using SI measurements.


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

*Old age....really??*



harrysin said:


> Marcel, if you can still do all the things that I do when YOU reach the age of 79, then you will be very fortunate.


Harry, I hope that you understand that I am just teasing you. 

Genetically speaking I probably have a good chance that I will do well in my advancing years. My paternal grandfather passed at age 89 and he was physically fit and as sharp as a tack up until that time. Throughout his life he was able to add or subtract large columns of numbers mentally....like a human calculator. My paternal grand uncle left us at age 86. My dad was 85 when he passed and his mind was quite nimble as well. All were ambulatory up to the end. My maternal grandmother left us at age 98. My maternal aunt is 91 and still well. My mom has just celebrated her 92nd birthday and although the ravages of Alzheimer has taken its toll she is still exercising, ballroom dancing and walking up a storm. This is a picture of her beside my truck, she was a full 10 years older than you are now (see attachment) and yes she climbed up to have a ride. The gentleman in the third attachment is my father-in -law and he is older than you as well. So you see that I'm unimpressed by a mere 79 year old. You are just a kid compared to my family, not even an octogenarian yet. Now, get out to your shop and make some sawdust and speak to me not of old age for another decade!! :nono:


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## PeterGee (Dec 4, 2012)

Marcel M said:


> That never worked out for me.


I have a truly excellent Japanese fine tooth saw that could sort out your little problem, very easily. Ask any Yakuza members...


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

mftha said:


> Harry, I am so sorry that Marlene suffered a fall and injuries. I do pray that she is recovering well.
> You are so blessed to have such a wonderful family.
> 
> i certainly do what I can to train students in using SI measurements.


Thank you Tom, thankfully Marlene is back on her feet even though her left leg is quite black. She must have strong bones for none to have broken in such a hard fall. She had planned to "take me shopping" tomorrow but 40°C temperatures are forecast so I'll not be surprised if her plans suddenly change! I hope that your health is improving and that this year will be infinitely better than the last one.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

"Harry, I hope that you understand that I am just teasing you."
Sometimes it's difficult to tell Marcel, especially when I couldn't find and answer on Wiki. So I have to presume that you made that one up. By the way, I don't harbor grudges.


----------



## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

PeterGee said:


> I have a truly excellent Japanese fine tooth saw that could sort out your little problem, very easily. Ask any Yakuza members...


Probably a Dozuki saw. My only concern is weather I'll be able to play the piano after.


----------



## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

harrysin said:


> "Harry, I hope that you understand that I am just teasing you."
> Sometimes it's difficult to tell Marcel, especially when I couldn't find and answer on Wiki. So I have to presume that you made that one up. By the way, I don't harbor grudges.


I usually do not provide a bibliography with my posts but I will in this instance just for you Harry.


OP - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (Found in the "internet and gaming" section)

OP - Wiktionary (Found in the "initialism" section)

Urban Dictionary: op

What does OP mean? - OP Definition - Meaning of OP - InternetSlang.com

Why would you harbor a grudge with someone that is attempting to broaden your horizons? My friend. :yes4:


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

I'm pleased to see just how computer literate you are Marcel so perhaps you can solve a problem for me. My computer has successfully paired with my Bluetooth headset and the sound is set for the Bluetooth headset, however I can't get a peep out of them. When paired with an iPhone it works perfectly. I can't wait until tomorrow to follow your instructions.


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## PeterGee (Dec 4, 2012)

Marcel M said:


> Probably a Dozuki saw. My only concern is weather I'll be able to play the piano after.


I would agree that an octave+3 might be a difficult feat, but just remember to offer your left hand...


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

harrysin said:


> I'm pleased to see just how computer literate you are Marcel so perhaps you can solve a problem for me. My computer has successfully paired with my Bluetooth headset and the sound is set for the Bluetooth headset, however I can't get a peep out of them. When paired with an iPhone it works perfectly. I can't wait until tomorrow to follow your instructions.


Is it a PC or a Mac?


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

:jester:


PeterGee said:


> I would agree that an octave+3 might be a difficult feat, but just remember to offer your left hand...


Wow!!! That must be a special saw for I have *never* been able to play the piano.:jester:


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## PeterGee (Dec 4, 2012)

Marcel M said:


> :jester:
> 
> Wow!!! That must be a special saw for I have *never* been able to play the piano.:jester:


Oh, come on now! I bet you can play "Chopsticks" alright...


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

PeterGee said:


> Oh, come on now! I bet you can play "Chopsticks" alright...


Chopsticks? Is that by Rachmaninoff?


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Marcel M said:


> Is it a PC or a Mac?


It's a PC i7 with Win7.


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

harrysin said:


> It's a PC i7 with Win7.


Okay. What brand and model number is your device?


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Marcel M said:


> Okay. What brand and model number is your device?


It's a generic.


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

harrysin said:


> I'm pleased to see just how computer literate you are Marcel so perhaps you can solve a problem for me. My computer has successfully paired with my Bluetooth headset and the sound is set for the Bluetooth headset, however I can't get a peep out of them. When paired with an iPhone it works perfectly. I can't wait until tomorrow to follow your instructions.


You know Harry that not knowing your brand and model means that I'm just shooting in the dark. It sounds as though you have a driver problem and there are many drivers to choose from. I can't recommend a driver solution unless you can specify the brand of computer and the brand and model of your headset. :cray:


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Thanks for your suggestion Marcel, really appreciated, however a friend called round yesterday and when he couldn't find anything obvious he un-installed the device, re-installed it and to the astonishment of both of us, loud clear music burst forth! I still have the odd problem but I'll try for another couple of days before seeking help.
As for the computer, it uses an ASRock H71M-DGS mother board with an Intel Core i7-377 processor running at 3.4GB and has 8GB of memory with a 1TB hard drive. You now know as much as I've read from the paperwork Marcel. All I really know is that when I click the mouse, It takes a second for me to realize that the screen has changed!


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

use the other shortcut...

calls for metric, whip out the meter stick...
need SAE, continue on as you always have...

convert nothing...


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

I've never disagreed with that simple logic Stick, even I mix and match metric and Imperial but that doesn't alter the fact that in MY opinion Imperial really is stupid compared with METRIC, hence the title of this long running thread, it shows that there is a great deal of interest in the subject.


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## cagenuts (May 8, 2010)

Now if only Time was metric............


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

harrysin said:


> Thanks for your suggestion Marcel, really appreciated, however a friend called round yesterday and when he couldn't find anything obvious he un-installed the device, re-installed it and to the astonishment of both of us, loud clear music burst forth! I still have the odd problem but I'll try for another couple of days before seeking help.
> As for the computer, it uses an ASRock H71M-DGS mother board with an Intel Core i7-377 processor running at 3.4GB and has 8GB of memory with a 1TB hard drive. You now know as much as I've read from the paperwork Marcel. All I really know is that when I click the mouse, It takes a second for me to realize that the screen has changed!


Sorry that I couldn't help more. The un-install/re-install leads me to believe it may have been driver problems and that I was on the right track. There were at least four different drivers assigned to drive various headsets so without knowledge of brand I was in a quandary as to which would work for your specific model.
It sounds like you have a nice computer. If you ever feel the need to speed it up even more in the future than you may consider single user disk striping in conjunction with a RAID 0 array like I did to mine. This is my set-up 

Dual 800 watt hot swap power supplies
5 - Hot swap SAS/SATA 7200RPM hard drives
PICMG 1.3 HSB with dual Xeon, C2Q, C2D, SOCKET 771 processors
32 GB memory
RAID 0
Dual GB LAN
14 Slot passive backplane with support for:
10 Full Length / Full Height ISA CTI Boards or
10 Full Length / Full Height PCI CTI Boards or
10 Full Length / Full Height PCIe CTI Boards


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

> Dual 800 watt hot swap power supplies
> 5 - Hot swap SAS/SATA 7200RPM hard drives
> PICMG 1.3 HSB with dual Xeon, C2Q, C2D, SOCKET 771 processors
> 32 GB memory
> ...



i love it when people talk PC....LOL


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Stick486 said:


> units of ten as in ten fingers...
> workers come with their own caculators...


Don't tell the bean counters - they'll use it a a way to economise......


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Marcel M said:


> Sorry that I couldn't help more. The un-install/re-install leads me to believe it may have been driver problems and that I was on the right track. There were at least four different drivers assigned to drive various headsets so without knowledge of brand I was in a quandary as to which would work for your specific model.
> It sounds like you have a nice computer. If you ever feel the need to speed it up even more in the future than you may consider single user disk striping in conjunction with a RAID 0 array like I did to mine. This is my set-up
> 
> Dual 800 watt hot swap power supplies
> ...


That sure is impressive even though I don't pretend to understand it all, but tell me, does it have USB3?


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

harrysin said:


> That sure is impressive even though I don't pretend to understand it all, but tell me, does it have USB3?


I have indeed changed from eSATA to a USB3 hub. As you know SATA is still being used in the majority of hard drives so even if USB3 is faster externally the data stream still has to pass through the bridge chip which slows it down. As a result both are currently transferring data at about the same speed with eSata handling data writing a little faster than USB but loses to it at reading data. When it comes down to the wire, USB 3.0 is still too new to be raving about it just yet, or to even accurately judge it against other data transfer methods. I will say that we can expect this technology to soon surpass eSATA in every aspect, but we’re just not there yet. That's just my opinion Harry but time will tell.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

I know that this thread is being side-tracked but computers are interesting. I'm just waiting delivery of a 4 way USB 3 board which claims to give USB3 speeds to a USB 2 machine. I had another problem with the new computer, it damaged the mics. on two headsets, in as much as they sound like a transatlantic phone call about 75 years ago even when tried on another machine. First thought was too much voltage at the mic. sockets but it was spot on 2 volts like other machines. A friend suggested re-installing the drivers and this fixed the unusual problem.


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

harrysin said:


> I know that this thread is being side-tracked but computers are interesting. I'm just waiting delivery of a 4 way USB 3 board which claims to give USB3 speeds to a USB 2 machine. I had another problem with the new computer, it damaged the mics. on two headsets, in as much as they sound like a transatlantic phone call about 75 years ago even when tried on another machine. First thought was too much voltage at the mic. sockets but it was spot on 2 volts like other machines. A friend suggested re-installing the drivers and this fixed the unusual problem.



All this talk of speed is moot if you don't have a computer that supports this new technology, and few do at this point. The first devices that were certified for USB 3.0 were introduced just over a year and a half ago, and have only been in stores for a short time (about a year). That holds for computers just as it does for hard drives and other peripherals. USB 3.0 devices work with 2.0 partners, but only at 2.0 speed. If you have a 3.0 peripheral but still have a 2.0 computer, you'll be able to use it; you'll just pay more money for some performance advantages you can't yet enjoy. The same rule applies if you have a 2.0 hard drive and a 3.0 laptop. Having said that your 4 way USB 3 board will speed things up considerably but your machine will not be as fast as a dedicated USB 3 machine. Your connection is only as fast as the slowest component, whatever that may be. It's a lot like having to convert from Imperial to metric or visa-verse as opposed to using just one measuring system. It's the converting that takes time. To make a further analogy 2.0 is akin to Imperial, slow and cumbersome, and 3.0 is like metric, quick and easy.


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Marcel M said:


> To make a further analogy 2.0 is akin to Imperial, slow and cumbersome, and 3.0 is like metric, quick and easy.


Back on track at last, I see!


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

Phil P said:


> Back on track at last, I see!


:yes2::yes2::yes2:


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Marcel's last sentence has made my day!


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## cagenuts (May 8, 2010)

Keeping off topic, in December a client wanted an external hard drive. For roughly the same money he could either get a 2Tb USB 3.0 or a 3Tb USB 2.0.

I advised the bigger drive as he had no devices that would recognize the faster drive.


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

cagenuts said:


> Keeping off topic, in December a client wanted an external hard drive. For roughly the same money he could either get a 2Tb USB 3.0 or a 3Tb USB 2.0.
> 
> I advised the bigger drive as he had no devices that would recognize the faster drive.


Good call!


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

I hope that everyone with such big hard drives also use a similar size external one for regular backups.


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Phil P said:


> Back on track at last, I see!





harrysin said:


> I hope that everyone with such big hard drives also use a similar size external one for regular backups.


..... or then again, maybe not :blink:


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

Phil P said:


> ..... or then again, maybe not :blink:


Yes, we are easily sidetracked. Sometimes half the fun is in not knowing where you are going.


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

harrysin said:


> I hope that everyone with such big hard drives also use a similar size external one for regular backups.



I currently have 5 external hard drives hooked up to the laptop......

I have copies of copies of copies....LOL. (up to 6 copies of my photos).

Presently, organizing and removing so many duplicated files.( and keep one backup)...


PS: none of the drives are in imperial or metric

:jester:


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

I like to have hot swap hard drives that way I can physically disconnect my back up drives. Remember that if you mirror your hard drives a virus or malware can infect and corrupt all your drives.


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## Willway (Aug 16, 2012)

I see nothing wrong with learning both systems, as a matter of fact you had better learn to use both. As for measurements most all of have at least one set of calipers which much more accurate than we can work. I have 2 on the desk in front of me as I type this. I have a hell of a time keeping 5/16 and 8mm bolts separated. Most of our bits are imperial to go with the templates and bushings. A digital caliper that uses Caliper with Inch Fractions/Decimal SAE/Metric can be had for less than the cost of good square.

True Power 6"(150mm) Stainless Steel Digital Vernier Caliper with Inch Fractions/Decimal SAE/Metric Unit Display & Conversion #446 - Amazon.com


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## GTVi (May 14, 2010)

Metric person here for a long time, I'm finding lately I am using more and more imperial as I am buying more things from USA. Helps to not just understand imperial but also to conceptualize (is that the right term) both measurement standards without getting out a ruler. Imperial drill bits I hate with a vengeance.


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## Duane Bledsoe (Jan 6, 2013)

Metric would be so simple if it was all we had. I know it, and could learn to use it well with practice, but I was brought up using imperial and am very comfortable with it to the 1/32 ranges (as in if a 1/2 inch bit is just a shade small, I immediately know to try a 17/32). 

All I need to know is 1 inch equals 2.54 centimeters or 25.4 millimeters to do the conversions. I even sat one day and cross multiplied to figure out what sizes of metric and standards were in between each other, made a chart, and put it with my sockets and wrenches. Now anytime I have a bolt that almost fits a wrench but not quite, it's a simple matter to look and see what other one to try. It's not always metric, inch, metric, inch. Sometimes it's metric, inch, metric, metric, inch, in terms of graduated size order. Having this chart has made working on a car much easier for sure.


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## thething84 (Jan 7, 2013)

i can use both metric and imperial. Brought up on metric system here in UK. But work for a aerospace company who deals with american military aircraft. therefore we work in imperial at work. I personally like imperial measurement. Much more accurate to measure in the Metric. Can measure to a finer degree easily.


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## cagenuts (May 8, 2010)

Here's a thought.............

Why are there no metric dado sets?

Nothing on amazon.co.uk or at Axminster or Rutlands etc (all UK shops).


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

My understanding is that in Europe dado sets are banned, in fact I'm led to believe that saw tables MUST have short spindles to ensure that they can't be used. I suppose that any width dado can be made with the aid of a shim or two. I once bought a dado set, used it a couple of times then swapped it for what I considered a better choice of tool.


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## cagenuts (May 8, 2010)

harrysin said:


> swapped it for what I considered a better choice of tool.


cold chisel? :laugh:


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

harrysin said:


> My understanding is that in Europe dado sets are banned, in fact I'm led to believe that saw tables MUST have short spindles to ensure that they can't be used. I suppose that any width dado can be made with the aid of a shim or two. I once bought a dado set, used it a couple of times then swapped it for what I considered a better choice of tool.


Oh boy, Harry! They *aren't* banned, _per se_, but there is a limit on the width of tooling that can be held on table saw spindles, effectively about 16mm - over that and you won't get CE type approval. Since the late 1990s we've had a requirement that ALL tooling on saws and spindle moulders (shapers) must be of chip limiter/anti-kickback design to limit injury in the event of a hand to tool contact, you see the same design features in many router cutters here (often marked "BG Pruf", a German standard). In addition in the late 1990s came a requirement for all woodworking machines (with certain limited exceptions) to brake to a halt within 10 seconds of the emergency stop being hit - for commercial woodworkers this requirement was retroactively applied to ALL machines within the shop, new or old, between 2000 and 2006, meaning that a lot of old kit was simply scrapped in favour of newer braked machines. 

As it happens there are several European table saw manufacturers who produce 2-piece split grooving heads for use on table saws, most notably Scheppach and Felder. These cutters will all work happily on a the shorter stub arbors fitted to more modern machines but the machines also have braking mechanisms set-up specifically to handle the extra mass of the grooving heads. 

In addition deWalt in Europe has for a number of years produced no less than three different 2-piece split groovers for use on its' own radial arm saws, but radial arm saws are an exception to the rule on braking because they don't need to have a brake fitted so long as they auto-return to their home position should the operator's hand be removed (generally achieved by a spiral spring mechanism or a counterweight and pulley arrangement) and so long as in the home position the head is enclosed within a "home" box to stop contact with spinning tooling.

So after that convoluted explanation it boils down to the "ninja star" stacked dado head not meeting our legal requirements for anti-kickback design together with the braking requirement on table saws. With the correct type of "dado head" (or groover) you can still cut housings and rebates on a European saw. Perhaps I should point out that MDF and particle board are more often used for domestic furniture than plywood over here and therefore biscuit jointing, KD fittings, carcass screws, etc have largely replaced housed (dado) joints for this type of work mainly because they are much faster and much cheaper.

My own opinion is that rebates are better (and safer) cut on a spindle moulder (shaper) or with a hand held router and that if you need to trench-out housings (grooves) the radial arm saw is the way to go

Regards

Phil


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

bobj3 said:


> Hi Guys
> 
> I don't like to use the imperial or the metric system when the decimal system works for both....and just about anyone can get it right off the bat..
> 
> ...


and the math is so simple....
excellent post..


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## Santé (Jan 14, 2010)

cagenuts said:


> Here's a thought.............
> 
> Why are there no metric dado sets?
> 
> Nothing on amazon.co.uk or at Axminster or Rutlands etc (all UK shops).


Because this type of blade is forbidden in Europe (I think?)


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Santé said:


> Because this type of blade is forbidden in Europe (I think?)


Sorry, Daniel, that's not strictly true - it's a lot more complicated than that. See my reply above


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## cagenuts (May 8, 2010)

Phil P said:


> Perhaps I should point out that MDF and particle board are more often used for domestic furniture than plywood over here and therefore biscuit jointing, KD fittings, carcass screws, etc have largely replaced housed (dado) joints for this type of work mainly because they are much faster and much cheaper.


I think this sums it up pretty well. Do the UK tradies use pocket hole joinery?


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

It sounds like I was pretty close to the truth. Thanks Phil. for such a detailed explanation.


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

cagenuts said:


> I think this sums it up pretty well. Do the UK tradies use pocket hole joinery?


Yes, Hilton, but not really that much. The main place I've seen them used is for decor gable ends on kitchen carcasses and the like (where overskinning with a separate decor panel isn't feasible). I've found that on MFC and MDF they don't make for a particularly strong joint - it's not the in-service strength which is the issue, it's actually the strength required for manhandling carcasses, etc into their final position. I've only ever broken one pocket-hole carcass (a full-heignt oven unit without any back panels or cross braces, so very weak, had to lift it to a 4th floor apartment) but I've seen others do it enough times to be wary.

Regards

Phil


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Santé said:


> Because this type of blade is forbidden in Europe (I think?)


In UK for commercial use it is regulated. But for Hobby use... 

The European saw I got the quote on, I had to have the company make corrections to the quote as the dados they where trying to send with it were 10" x 30mm arbor and 8" x 30mm arbor, which the saw was 5/8" to 1" arbor. So I "think" they are available in Europe...

Thought about blade braking and arbors getting loose from inertia. Don't some have a different arbor locking systems? For instance, some of the Martin T-60's use a hydraulic quick release arbor, while the Martin T-73 uses an electro-pneumatic release... I've noticed 2 small holes across from each other near arbor holes on some European blades and was wondering if those could be used for keeping a blade keyed to an arbor during braking...

Sorry, just thinking out loud. I talk about this with Phil often. We both seem to realize that feelings and techniques on creating "a groove" are different in North America that they are in the UK. I can see where a heavy dado set would spin off an arbor nut during blade braking. I can see where I would really have to change my techniques under those conditions.


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

MAFoElffen said:


> In UK for commercial use it is regulated. But for Hobby use...
> .....So I "think" they are available in Europe...


Hi Mike

Yes, you can still buy stacked saw dado sets for home use, but they are very much of a grey area, and there aren't many firms willing to supply them any longer - as firms have sold their stocks they simply haven't restocked because it avoids the liability issue entirely. For use in a commercial environment, though, they are really and truly frowned on. If you have an accident with one and if it's not marked with the supplier's name and a CE mark (both legal requirements, a bit like the UL marking you have on electrical goods in the USA) and you'll probably find yourself uninsured. Or so I'm told. I'm not so sure that many of the stacked saw sets would meet the CE-marking requirement because they aren't of an anti-kickback design. BTW H&S law is EU-wide and not national. Some countries like Germany and the UK are more rigourous in enforcing it than others (in fact Germany is stricter than the UK on many points)



MAFoElffen said:


> Thought about blade braking and arbors getting loose from inertia. Don't some have a different arbor locking systems?


Yes, but not on lower cost saws. The DW 2-piece dado sets I mentioned (which are really like a 2-piece expanding spindle moulder/shaper cutter block) have been tested on DW 10in radial arm saws with a single locking nut, and didn't unscrew under braking, but they are only approved for use on one model of saw. For any other cutters used on a braked saw motor I think you'd either need to double nut the tooling or to disconnect the brake (of course the latter option may be a fineable offence in a commercial workshop if you are caught). It really all depends on how rapidly your saw stops the blade when you hit the eStop button - it has to be under 10 seconds on a trade machine. And saying you're buying a hobby machine doesn't cut it here - the regs on new machines apply across the board just as they would with a car or a pick-up.



MAFoElffen said:


> I've noticed 2 small holes across from each other near arbor holes on some European blades and was wondering if those could be used for keeping a blade keyed to an arbor during braking...


Drive pins either side of the main arbor are fitted to pretty much every saw with 12in blades over here and have been for 20 or more years. The pins locate in the extra holes in the blades to prevent the blade from slipping under braking. Having a blade with locating pins means that a blade unload is almost unheard of

Perhaps I should point out the reason for shut-down braking on machines (again, in a trade environment); the issues of kickback, etc have long ago been addressed here by a variety of methods (riving knives, table saw fence design, run-off support, push sticks, etc) but there were still a significant number of hand/cutter contact injuries every year caused by operator carelessness, e.g. opening guards to clean parts of the machine whilst the cutters were running down (5-head tenoners, etc). Braking removes this hazard almost completely. The result over the last ten years is that this type of accident has all but disappeared - so more wood machinists who can count to ten without taking their shoes and socks off!

Regards

Phil


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## demographic (Aug 12, 2012)

Just spotted this today and thought it was appropriate.


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## cagenuts (May 8, 2010)

Good one!

+1000


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Thank you Scott, that chart vindicates me from criticism for choosing the name of this thread.


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

harrysin said:


> Thank you Scott, that chart vindicates me from criticism for choosing the name of this thread.



Harry, i am completely with you for your praise of Scott' chart
Scott, Thank you very much for the chart. May I ask where you got it 9did you make it yourself? and where can I get permission to use it for teaching purposes?


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## woodworkingmenace (Feb 7, 2013)

So, the rest of the World is wrong, and we are right LOL 

It takes and individual to be the exception, and not follow the crowd...

I wish you well...

Jesse


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## demographic (Aug 12, 2012)

mftha said:


> Harry, i am completely with you for your praise of Scott' chart
> Scott, Thank you very much for the chart. May I ask where you got it' did you make it yourself? and where can I get permission to use it for teaching purposes?



Someone posted the graph on THIS thread on Garage Journal.

I'm afraid I don't have the foggiest notion who actually made the graph in the first place but personally I would just use it anyway cos its funny.

Well, it tickled me anyway.


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

woodworkingmenace said:


> It takes and individual to be the exception, and not follow the crowd...


Once that was where the metric system was....... Now look at it


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## AndyL (Jun 3, 2011)

If you want to know how good the metric system is, you just have to look at the number of British posters on this thread arguing in favour of it. It has to be pretty great for us to have conceded the superiority of something invented by the French!


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## cagenuts (May 8, 2010)

AndyL said:


> It has to be pretty great for us to have conceded the superiority of something invented by the French!


Yes they are still p1ssed that the Poms stole the Meridian! (now GMT).


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Realizing that there are still a few Americans who can't accept the METRIC system, here is a very short video to help you with the outdated Imperial system.


Fractional Addition & Subtraction Made Easy - Woodworking videos, projects, classes, tips and techniques


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

That was funny Harry. Wonder if they have an equally inventive method for dividing fractions into equal parts?


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

cagenuts said:


> Yes they are still p1ssed that the Poms stole the Meridian! (now GMT).


Nothing new, Hilton, they've been teed off with us for centuries. If you want a good read on the subject I'd recommend "1000 Years of Annoying the French" by Stephen Clarke which SWMBO gave me at Christmas

_"The English, by nature, always want to fight their neighbours for no reason, which is why they die badly"_ - from the "Journal d'un Bourgious de Paris" (written during the Hundred Years War, 1337 to 1453 - go figure!)

_"We have been, we are and I trust we always will be detested by the French"_ - Duke of Wellington

And *despite* all this we still adopted the metric system!

P.S. We _didn't_ steal the Prime Meridian (or the Greenwich Meridian) - the French simply got outvoted at the 1884 International Meridian Conference held in Washington, D.C., *USA* (22 to 3 as it happens). Didn't stop them using the Paris Meridian until 1911, though.

Regards

Phil


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## Semipro (Mar 22, 2013)

I am a newbie, my woodworking hobby spams 30 years joined this form to maybe learn something new ( was told no religion no politics ) yet after reading this argument between the metric system and the imperial system I have learn nothing about routing or woodworking . This started over 51/64 measurement well gentlemen wood grow and shrinks more then this so my suggestion is to use the system that works for you. At my age I have no desire to learn a new system


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## cagenuts (May 8, 2010)

Phil P said:


> If you want a good read on the subject I'd recommend "1000 Years of Annoying the French" by Stephen Clarke which SWMBO gave me at Christmas


Thanks Phil, downloaded and on my Kindle.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Semipro said:


> I am a newbie, my woodworking hobby spams 30 years joined this form to maybe learn something new ( was told no religion no politics ) yet after reading this argument between the metric system and the imperial system I have learn nothing about routing or woodworking . This started over 51/64 measurement well gentlemen wood grow and shrinks more then this so my suggestion is to use the system that works for you. At my age I have no desire to learn a new system


May I respectfully suggest that you only follow the HUGE number of woodworking threads including the large number of my fully illustrated tutorials.


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

Semipro said:


> ..... yet after reading this argument between the metric system and the imperial system I have learn nothing about routing or woodworking . ....


It took you reading 803 posts to figure that out? :haha:


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## Chris Curl (Feb 13, 2012)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> That was funny Harry. Wonder if they have an equally inventive method for dividing fractions into equal parts?


simple. 

multiply the bottom number by how many parts you want.

dividing 7/16 into 4 equal parts is 7/(16*4) = 7/64

3/4 divided into 2 parts = 3/8

done


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## Semipro (Mar 22, 2013)

Marcel 
You know how it is with us stupid people


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

Semipro said:


> Marcel
> You know how it is with us stupid people


I'm smarter than that and would have stopped at 802. :yes4:


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## Semipro (Mar 22, 2013)

Marcel
Haha, well enough on this guess I will get back to retirement


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

Semipro said:


> I am a newbie, my woodworking hobby spams 30 years joined this form to maybe learn something new ( was told no religion no politics ) yet after reading this argument between the metric system and the imperial system I have learn nothing about routing or woodworking . This started over 51/64 measurement well gentlemen wood grow and shrinks more then this so my suggestion is to use the system that works for you. At my age I have no desire to learn a new system



Hi John,

This is only one post in a wealth of information. :yes4:

Have you taken the time to read any of the other posts.......?

It appears you have missed some pertinent points in the thread....Just a discussion topic.

Even Harry says, you don't have to follow this tread if you don't want to.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Chris Curl said:


> simple.
> 
> multiply the bottom number by how many parts you want.
> 
> ...


I meant to do it with a pair of tape measures like they were using in the video. Despite the fact that you and I and many other forum members know how, I know a lot more people who can't do it. I've worked with some carpenters who can't do it.


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## ja1n (Mar 1, 2013)

well the metric system is so much better. just hard to implement some places. jan


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

I have noticed during the life of this thread that more and more METRIC items are being offered in America. I receive several flyers on a regular basis and so am able to judge this.


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> I've worked with some carpenters who can't do it.


Good grief! In order to divide any length into any number of parts you don't even need a tape measure. It can be done by geometry. It was drummed into me many times in the early days that "memory and tapes are fallible - a rod isn't" and that if you have a grasp of geometry you need to measure a lot less

Some things stick

Regards

Phil


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

harrysin said:


> I have noticed during the life of this thread that more and more METRIC items are being offered in America. I receive several flyers on a regular basis and so am able to judge this.


This is probably because the US is not the manufacturing power house that it used to be. Many US companies are manufacturing goods abroad for both local and foreign consumption.


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Marcel M said:


> This is probably because the US is not the manufacturing power house that it used to be. Many US companies are manufacturing goods abroad for both local and foreign consumption.


Another thing to consider is the widespread adoption of metric-based systems, such as System 32 used in kitchen cabinet construction. On another (trade) forum in the USA it is still possible to read threads of disasters and problems caused by folk trying to use this construction system but who insist on converting all units to inches. Of course it doesn't work because all the hardware designed and made for System 32 is metric (even the stuff made in the USA). The advice over there is always the same - System 32 is METRIC, so convert to using METRIC (at least for building the cabs)

Regards

Phil


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## cagenuts (May 8, 2010)

Like most other things in life, both systems will remain in part and be used accordingly.

Think about the decision to go Wireless or Wired (Ethernet). You shouldn't really choose one over the other, each has its place and the best way is choose the correct measuring system for the job at hand. 

So don't *EVER* think that you have to give up Imperial in order to integrate Metric in your shop.


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## ggom20 (Feb 1, 2012)

*Some Beauty in Imperial system*

Hello!

It is true that calculating with fractions of inches not an easy thing...
I remember the day I've seen my english uncle's steel-lathe and it's divisions...
Then I had to use about the same one at school.

As a regular Metric system user, I still can found some advanges the imperial system:

Dimensions of standart things as pipes, mechanics profiles are more evenly 
distributed.

As an example of this I made extensions to my scaffolder using imperial steel tubing
designed for central heating.

Worked fine. Could find a pipe that would fit into another to make some male- female
connections.

And , by using fractional calculation, sizes goes bigger in a way that is well stepped.
-Quickly according to what is needed for the necessity.:yes4:

That we don't here, using metrics:
Too much choice !

Advanced , well learned enginners are suppose to use a mathemathical approach
using some " serie de Renard" Numbers, but no-one does....
serie de Renard example:
1 ; 1.2; 1.5 ; 1.8 ; 2 ; 2.2 ; 2.5 : 3 ; 3.3 ; and so on. (This one is used in the electronics
component sizing).

So it comes that we got a very large choice of "standard size" in manufacturers catalogs.
But with really few in stock as it is impossible to stock all of them...

So when one want to build a prototype.. nothing in stocks. 


If someone is interested i' ll post a copy of "Serie de Renard" as it aplies to mechanical dimentions. as it's 'in the tech book.

Regards.
Gérard.


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

ggom20 said:


> If someone is interested i' ll post a copy of "Serie de Renard" as it aplies to mechanical dimentions. as it's 'in the tech book.


Hi Gérard

Even if nobody else is interested, I am

Regards

Phil


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## cagenuts (May 8, 2010)

I was watching a video presented by the Schwarz and he also uses Metric in his shop. Has one metric ruler that is used to elevate a card scraper when sharpening on a stone so only the leading edge is polished and not the entire surface.

Thought it was funny at the time.


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## dherbert (Oct 28, 2011)

*Skilled engineers*



bill kay said:


> Just a thought,
> 
> Skilled engineers, using fractions and inches, as well as a slide rule or two developed everything from modern medicine, farming, aviation and space exploration. These enlightened engineers, again using fractions and inches, even put a man on the moon.
> 
> ...


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

"just saying" 

I'm glad that you did David.


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## walowan (Jan 21, 2011)

At one time the US governement tried to get the country to go metric....I believe it was the money mongers that felt it would be too expensive to change over. I feel that was very short sighted because once we had all been trained to use the metric system and converted the tooling as the imperial tools wore out it would have been better and cheaper in the long term.....

So now we have ******* machines that use both metric and imperial fasteners and that is truely a nightmare and pain in the butt!


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

walowan said:


> At one time the US governement tried to get the country to go metric.......
> 
> So now we have ******* machines that use both metric and imperial fasteners and that is truely a nightmare and pain in the butt!


The Government did not try hard enough.... LOL .....

Is the country run by the Government or by the "money mongers"?

If the bills were passed at that time, all the change over would have finished a long time ago.

Most industrial manufacturing uses metric these days in any case.

I saw a documentary of the Winnebago factory some time ago and all the measurements shown were metric. Even the small spacer blocks for the furniture. 

It does not matter to me which country uses which system, I just find metric easier to use, which was, I believe, Harry's original premise.


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

jw2170 said:


> ......Is the country run by the Government or by the "money mongers"?.....


It's run by the money mongers!! :big_boss:


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## demographic (Aug 12, 2012)

jw2170 said:


> The Government did not try hard enough.... LOL .....
> 
> Is the country run by the Government or by the "money mongers"?
> 
> ...


We have the metric system in the UK...
Well in theory we do anyway, doors still come in inch sizes 2'6", 2'9" by 6'6" or 6'8" and so on or metric conversions of those very same metric sizes cos they have to fit into old casings.
Plywood is still eight foot by four foot (2420x1220mm) and plasterboard is metric at 2400x1200 which means on a flat roof in order to get the centres right you might as well set it up for the plasterboard then do cuts on the plywood to reduce it slightly so the centres work properly.


Its a half arsed way of doing it but that's what we have so we use it.


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

*Does the US Govt. know......*

...that the US is a non-metric country?

Last night, I watched a documentary on the spread of Asian Carp in the Mississippi river system.

The govt officers, had USCG patches, were measuring the carp in mm and weighing the carp in kilos.......

:dance3:


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

jw2170 said:


> ...that the US is a non-metric country?
> 
> Last night, I watched a documentary on the spread of Asian Carp in the Mississippi river system.
> 
> ...


He was just being PC.


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## cagenuts (May 8, 2010)

Countries which are still living in the past.


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## cutter79 (Oct 21, 2012)

Very interesting

It should be noted that here in Australia Cutters can be purchase either in Metric or Imperial from an Australian company that manufacture both here in Melbourne
sam


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

*How close.....*



cutter79 said:


> Very interesting
> 
> It should be noted that here in Australia Cutters can be purchase either in Metric or Imperial from an Australian company that manufacture both here in Melbourne
> sam



That also has to be taken with a grain of salt. 

I went to Carbatec that other day to buy a CMT straight cutter. In the Carbatec catalog as 8mm, on the CMT label was an imperial measurement. (and Italy is a metric country).

Some manufactures and suppliers seem to believe the difference is so slight that it makes no difference.


----------



## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

cutter79 said:


> Very interesting
> 
> It should be noted that here in Australia Cutters can be purchase either in Metric or Imperial from an Australian company that manufacture both here in Melbourne
> sam


Probably because they are hoping to increase market share by catering to routers that use imperial collets and/or selling bits to the US market. I've checked dimensions on quite a few imperial sized router bits and the measurements on some were approximate imperial measure but very precise when measured in metric. The imperial system is gradually being replaced in the holdout countries. There are some things that are going to make the full transition difficult like the 4 x8 sheet of panel or the fact that a section of land is one square mile. The roads here in the Canadian prairies are one mile apart going east/west and two miles apart going north/south. That can't be changed, but when I get directions on how to get to a drilling rig the measures are in metric because that's how our odometers are graduated. Eventually we'll make the full transition work and Imperial will be a footnote in history.


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

Interesting thread, what I read of it. I only use Imperial, because that's what I grew up with, and not about to change now. It works very accurately for me, because with every thing I do, I operate on the principle of, close enough is good enough, and a little sanding makes it fit perfectly. Works for me. 
:thank_you2:


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

I still use both but metric is much easier to use. In building cabinets, 1/16 is a bit of a large error but 1/32 is getting too difficult to read on a tape. A millimeter, at 1/25 of an inch, I find to be just right.


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

I use Imperial measurements for most tasks but I would be perfectly content to switch over to metric. One standard for the world makes it much easier to relay measurement information between our countries.


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## cutter79 (Oct 21, 2012)

jw2170 said:


> That also has to be taken with a grain of salt.
> 
> I went to Carbatec that other day to buy a CMT straight cutter. In the Carbatec catalog as 8mm, on the CMT label was an imperial measurement. (and Italy is a metric country).
> 
> Some manufactures and suppliers seem to believe the difference is so slight that it makes no difference.


James I was referring to the Carb-I-Tool company where I have purchased both Imperial and Metric Cutters from a great range of sizes


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

cutter79 said:


> James I was referring to the Carb-I-Tool company where I have purchased both Imperial and Metric Cutters from a great range of sizes


Hi Sam?.

I knew that you were referring to Carbi-I-Tool, I was using my experience at Carbatec as an example, which seems to be confirmed by Charles.

Have you checked a 3/8" cutter from Carb-I-Tool? What is the metric reading?


----------



## dc_ni (Jul 6, 2013)

I use metric in both work and at home. I learnt metric at school but picked up imperial off my dad when he was doing jobs about the house.

When I worked in the exhaust industry the two were both used at the same time. Both the tube and tooling sizes were in imperial, a throw back to pre decimalisation, but we used metric for the tube lengths.

In reference to the posts mentioning space exploration I thought some might find the following interesting:

"(CNN) -- NASA lost a $125 million Mars
orbiter because a Lockheed Martin engineering
team used English units of measurement while
the agency's team used the more conventional
metric system for a key spacecraft operation,
according to a review finding released
Thursday."

Further on it says:

"Metric system used by NASA for many
years"

So it looks like some areas of the US industry have converted but most haven't, which is where the need for full conversion comes in.

Dave


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

"There are some things that are going to make the full transition difficult like the 4 x8 sheet of panel"


Here they became 1220mm x 2440mm, however even now, all these years after the conversion to metric I still occasionally buy a sheet of 300mm x whatever and it turns out to be 12". This isn't a problem, just annoying that I have to trim it.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

jw2170 said:


> Hi Sam?.
> 
> I knew that you were referring to Carbi-I-Tool, I was using my experience at Carbatec as an example, which seems to be confirmed by Charles.
> 
> Have you checked a 3/8" cutter from Carb-I-Tool? What is the metric reading?


Yes, Carb.I.tool are very disappointing, for instance they quote a 10mm bit as being the same as a 25/64" whereas it's 9.921875mm and a 12mm is shown as 15/32" whereas it's actually 11.90625mm so the question is: if I order a 12mm bit is that what I receive or will it be undersized at 11.90625? For an Australian manufacturer where metric has been in since the 60's, it's very unsatisfactory.


----------



## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

harrysin said:


> Yes, Carb.I.tool are very disappointing, for instance they quote a 10mm bit as being the same as a 25/64" whereas it's 9.921875mm and a 12mm is shown as 15/32" whereas it's actually 11.90625mm so the question is: if I order a 12mm bit is that what I receive or will it be undersized at 11.90625? For an Australian manufacturer where metric has been in since the 60's, it's very unsatisfactory.



From my experience,little as that may be, Harry, I believe the metric measurements may be spot on. It is the "imperial" equivalents that will be off the mark. :sad:


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

You're probably right James, but it surprising how few whole number metric bits they list.


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## smart alex (Nov 20, 2011)

*Did you know?*

Did you know that most iconic science friction TV show ever, 'Star Trek', used metric units? A quote from the show -

"You’re position is 75,000 kilometres from the Klingon border.
Captain, are you seeing this?"

:laugh:


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## smart alex (Nov 20, 2011)

*While I'm at it...*

A quote from US columnist Dave Barry -

"The metric system is not going to catch on in the States, unless you count the increasing popularity of the nine-millimeter bullet."


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## smart alex (Nov 20, 2011)

*one more time...*

How large a cube do you need to build for it to contain 1 liter? That's easy. One liter is a decimeter cubed, so a cube with sides of 1 decimeter (0.1 m) a side will do.

Now the same problem in US customary units. How large a cube should you build for it to contain a gallon? 

Ehhm, that depends: do you mean a liquid gallon or a dry gallon? 

Hmmm, don't see why that should matter, but let's say the cube is to contain water. I guess that should make it liquid gallons? 

Right, liquid gallons it is. Let's see, if I remember correctly, 77 cubic feet equals 576 liquid gallons. So that would make one gallon equal to 77/576 cu ft. To get such a volume you need a cube with edges in feet that are equal to the third root of 77/576 which is... ehhh... got a pocket calculator?


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

smart alex said:


> How large a cube do you need to build for it to contain 1 liter? That's easy. One liter is a decimeter cubed, so a cube with sides of 1 decimeter (0.1 m) a side will do.
> 
> Now the same problem in US customary units. How large a cube should you build for it to contain a gallon?
> 
> ...


Or you could use an abacus. :lol:


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

You really don't need one in metric measure. All you need is ten fingers or ten toes. Although an abacus does the same thing without taking off mitts or socks.


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> You really don't need one in metric measure. All you need is ten fingers or ten toes. Although an abacus does the same thing without taking off mitts or socks.


Maybe I should put mine back in the attic then.  Wait............Damn, I still need mine 'cause I live in the US.


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## cagenuts (May 8, 2010)

Living in a metric world there's certainly something romantic about Imperial. Perhaps it's because no-one around you knows what a 9/16th spanner is or what 1/4-20 bolt is.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Marcel M said:


> Maybe I should put mine back in the attic then.  Wait............Damn, I still need mine 'cause I live in the US.


Not sure it will help you Marcel. 12 inches to the foot, 3 feet to the yard, 1760 yards to the mile. Drams, grains, ounces, pounds, and tons, all odd measures. Not to mention chains, rods, perches, and acres. And then there are pints, quarts, gallons, pecks, and bushels, also nothing similar to each other. You can keep your abacus out if you want but it would be a lot handier if you were working to base 10 math like the metric system.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

There are a few members who have totally inflexible minds, nothing will convince them that metric is simple and is used in most countries.


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> Not sure it will help you Marcel. 12 inches to the foot, 3 feet to the yard, 1760 yards to the mile. Drams, grains, ounces, pounds, and tons, all odd measures. Not to mention chains, rods, perches, and acres. And then there are pints, quarts, gallons, pecks, and bushels, also nothing similar to each other. You can keep your abacus out if you want but it would be a lot handier if you were working to base 10 math like the metric system.


The abacus does not work. I tried measuring my FOOT with the abacus to see if it was a FOOT long and it didn't work. So then I placed a BUSHEL of GRAIN on it to see how many POUNDS it weighed and it broke in half. I repaired the break with two RODS, CHAIN and duct tape. The mending job didn't go so well so I threw it out of the second story window where it became PERCHED in the tree just outside of the window. Giving up on the whole endeavor I went to the bar and threw down a few PINTS which turned into a few GALLONS. :cray:


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

It's good to see that when you're not studying your dictionaries you have time for a little humor Marcel.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Marcel M said:


> The abacus does not work. I tried measuring my FOOT with the abacus to see if it was a FOOT long and it didn't work. So then I placed a BUSHEL of GRAIN on it to see how many POUNDS it weighed and it broke in half. I repaired the break with two RODS, CHAIN and duct tape. The mending job didn't go so well so I threw it out of the second story window where it became PERCHED in the tree just outside of the window. Giving up on the whole endeavor I went to the bar and threw down a few PINTS which turned into a few GALLONS. :cray:


Good story Marcel, but I take it with a GRAIN of salt because I don't think there is an OUNCE of truth to it. Your argument is MILES off the mark and if you would take your light out from under the BUSHEL I think you would get down from your PERCH and join the rest of us. There is no reason to stay CHAINED to the Imperial system. There's no good reason to treat metric like it's at the end of a ten FOOT ROD. I can see why you would want to indulge in a DRAM or two of spirits with this mess, but a GALLON is a lot, especially if you should happen to be a small PINT.:sarcastic:


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> Good story Marcel, but I take it with a GRAIN of salt because I don't think there is an OUNCE of truth to it. Your argument is MILES off the mark and if you would take your light out from under the BUSHEL I think you would get down from your PERCH and join the rest of us. There is no reason to stay CHAINED to the Imperial system. There's no good reason to treat metric like it's at the end of a ten FOOT ROD. I can see why you would want to indulge in a DRAM or two of spirits with this mess, but a GALLON is a lot, especially if you should happen to be a small PINT.:sarcastic:


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

I can hardly believe it. Marcel stuck for words!


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

I am indulging James.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

With all due respect Marcel, not just James according to PM's and emails that I've had. I'm sure that you don't mind me being honest.


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

harrysin said:


> With all due respect Marcel, not just James according to PM's and emails that I've had. I'm sure that you don't mind me being honest.


Of course not Harry, please continue.


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## fire65 (Oct 29, 2008)

Never argue with the guy that has 9000 post. He thinks he is a god.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Fire65, it's blatantly obvious that you don't know me, if/when you do, I know that I'll get a very different opinion from you. In the meantime I'll continue to treasure the many good friends that I've made on this forum.


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

harrysin said:


> With all due respect Marcel, not just James according to PM's and emails that I've had. I'm sure that you don't mind me being honest.


Doesn't it seem odd that a person or persons would feel the need to contact you if they had an issue with me?


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Marcel, please believe me when I tell you that MANY forum members contact me via PM's and I usually give them my email address so that they can contact me direct, among the reasons for the contacts, apart from advice on wood working issues are remarks like " please Harry don't let so and so get under your skin" and that would be one of the mild ones.

Here is a copy of the most recent one concerning yourself: "Don't let him get to you, Harry.

He is just stirring the pot for his own amusement...."


----------



## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

harrysin said:


> Marcel, please believe me when I tell you that MANY forum members contact me via PM's and I usually give them my email address so that they can contact me direct, among the reasons for the contacts, apart from advice on wood working issues are remarks like " please Harry don't let so and so get under your skin" and that would be one of the mild ones.
> 
> Here is a copy of the most recent one concerning yourself: "Don't let him get to you, Harry.
> 
> He is just stirring the pot for his own amusement...."


Interesting since I have agreed with you on this and indeed most subjects, but not all. I too have seen several personal character assassinations and references to you having a God complex which I thought was uncalled for. Why do you suppose that you have been targeted? Do you feel that I have assailed your character? If so, please be specific.
Btw, you have been accused of "stirring the pot" as well to which you have admitted so I don't consider this much of a complaint. Sound like James. ;-)


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

You have misunderstood me Marcel, I personally have been getting great amusement from your posts and in all my replies to the messages that I receive I have said exactly that. In between my occasional controversial threads I continue to post answers to members serious woodworking questions, also to post new projects.
At my age I really am not bothered as to what people think of me because I know that during my lifetime I've always done my best to help all who I come into contact with. I've mentioned on many occasions on this forum that I keep no secrets from members, any knowledge that I have I'm eager to pass on. I make many mistakes during the making of projects for the forum, but instead of hiding them I show them together with the way that I solve the problem, usually by turning errors into features.
I'm proud of the fact that I have 42 friends listed on this forum
As for stirring the pot, I plead guilty as charged! When I do it's usually because there is a lull in the postings but once things become lively again I STOP, I don't continue post after post etc.


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

harrysin said:


> You have misunderstood me Marcel, I personally have been getting great amusement from your posts and in all my replies to the messages that I receive I have said exactly that. In between my occasional controversial threads I continue to post answers to members serious woodworking questions, also to post new projects.
> At my age I really am not bothered as to what people think of me because I know that during my lifetime I've always done my best to help all who I come into contact with. I've mentioned on many occasions on this forum that I keep no secrets from members, any knowledge that I have I'm eager to pass on. I make many mistakes during the making of projects for the forum, but instead of hiding them I show them together with the way that I solve the problem, usually by turning errors into features.
> I'm proud of the fact that I have 42 friends listed on this forum
> As for stirring the pot, I plead guilty as charged! When I do it's usually because there is a lull in the postings but once things become lively again I STOP, I don't continue post after post etc.


It pleases me that I am a source of amusement to you. Perhaps your friends are a bit thin skinned. I do like James although I believe that he views me as a bit course. So be it. 

It is my contention that the only people that do not make mistakes are those who do nothing. I always seem to make all of the mistakes first in order to get it correct in the end.

I have only had a chance to view one of your videos (tulips) but will look at the other when I get more time. Bravo Harry. Proof that an old dog can learn new tricks......and do them well. More on that later. When I am able to restart my pending router project I will not only document it but will critique my newly acquired and installed MuscleChuck. Cheers.


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## cagenuts (May 8, 2010)

Come on guys, let's get back on topic; bashing Imperial users.


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

Someone is restless. Lol.


----------



## cagenuts (May 8, 2010)




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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Brilliant Hilton.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Marcel M said:


> It pleases me that I am a source of amusement to you. Perhaps your friends are a bit thin skinned. I do like James although I believe that he views me as a bit course. So be it.
> 
> It is my contention that the only people that do not make mistakes are those who do nothing. I always seem to make all of the mistakes first in order to get it correct in the end.
> 
> I have only had a chance to view one of your videos (tulips) but will look at the other when I get more time. Bravo Harry. Proof that an old dog can learn new tricks......and do them well. More on that later. When I am able to restart my pending router project I will not only document it but will critique my newly acquired and installed MuscleChuck. Cheers.


You must surely realize Marcel that using language that requires comparatively uneducated simple folk like me to keep a dictionary on the desk in order to interpret many of your posts has to be a source of amusement. What on earth has James got to do with the subject at hand. By the way Marcel, I'l let you into a little secret, there is a member of this forum who so got under my skin some years ago that I resigned from the forum, however, Mark, who was the forum administrator called and spoke to me and persuaded me to stay and try to patch things up, which I did and that member and I became and are still very good friends. I have another very good forum friend who's views on climate change are 180° out of phase with mine, we simply don't discuss that subject. I mention all this in the hope that we two may reach a time when we discuss wood/metal projects and are in a position to assist not only any member who requires advice that we can give them, but help each other. One final thing, I not only give help here but I most definitely receive lots of it. The only two things that I've ever considered myself to be professional in are/were repairing consumer electronics and for the last ten/twelve years routing.


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

cagenuts said:


>


Oh my!!!


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

harrysin said:


> You must surely realize Marcel that using language that requires comparatively uneducated simple folk like me to keep a dictionary on the desk in order to interpret many of your posts has to be a source of amusement. What on earth has James got to do with the subject at hand. By the way Marcel, I'l let you into a little secret, there is a member of this forum who so got under my skin some years ago that I resigned from the forum, however, Mark, who was the forum administrator called and spoke to me and persuaded me to stay and try to patch things up, which I did and that member and I became and are still very good friends. I have another very good forum friend who's views on climate change are 180° out of phase with mine, we simply don't discuss that subject. I mention all this in the hope that we two may reach a time when we discuss wood/metal projects and are in a position to assist not only any member who requires advice that we can give them, but help each other. One final thing, I not only give help here but I most definitely receive lots of it. The only two things that I've ever considered myself to be professional in are/were repairing consumer electronics and for the last ten/twelve years routing.


I was not aware that my manner of expression is different from others. Perhaps it is a function of global distance and we are both practitioners of a divergent language. I too have perused the dictionary for this forum and one example are the words "rebate" and "Rabbit" as used in woodworking. Both words depict the identical woodworking feature in our corresponding countries to which I was unaware until most recently. This is much faster to use than the printed version. Dictionary and Thesaurus - Merriam-Webster Online

I must say that I have never gotten angry at anybody in any forum. Wow, that is serious anger Harry. I am pleased that you continued contributing to this forum. 

Temper is a weapon that we hold by the blade.
-James Barrie

I do try to help now and then and have already purchased a MuscleChuck and a large, metric bushing as per your suggestion. My life is a bit richer for this medium.


----------



## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

Back to the topic.

Powers of Ten


----------



## Padawan Learner (Oct 12, 2009)

Harry,
I read your post when it was first published, and didn't make much of it. But it had a way of sticking in the back of my mind. 

One day I was shopping for a new tape measure and decided to get one with fine metric increments, as well as the imperial. I, like many others, found it annoying to convert from imperial fractions to their decimal equivalents, and then back to fractions in order to consolidate measurements. That's when I decided to whip out my new metric tape measure. At first it was clumsy, since I wasn't used to measuring in that way. But over the past couple of years I have found it much easier to use metric for everything. Many of my tools are imperial, but I just convert everything to metric at the beginning of my design, taking into account the metric equivalents of my imperial tools, and from that point I go totally metric. Now that I am used to it, I doubt I will be going back to imperial.

The only thing that still bugs me about your original post is the word "stupidity." That word is a lightning rod that is likely to drive away from your idea many of the very people you are trying to convince. 

But I for one have found metric measurements to be much easier, and I have to give your post credit for it.

Best regards,
Vaughn Emett
Sandy, Utah


----------



## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

Padawan Learner said:


> Harry,
> I read your post when it was first published, and didn't make much of it. But it had a way of sticking in the back of my mind.
> 
> One day I was shopping for a new tape measure and decided to get one with fine metric increments, as well as the imperial. I, like many others, found it annoying to convert from imperial fractions to their decimal equivalents, and then back to fractions in order to consolidate measurements. That's when I decided to whip out my new metric tape measure. At first it was clumsy, since I wasn't used to measuring in that way. But over the past couple of years I have found it much easier to use metric for everything. Many of my tools are imperial, but I just convert everything to metric at the beginning of my design, taking into account the metric equivalents of my imperial tools, and from that point I go totally metric. Now that I am used to it, I doubt I will be going back to imperial.
> ...


Harry specifically intended the wording of his post to be provocative in order to gain readership.........it worked.


----------



## Semipro (Mar 22, 2013)

Hello


----------



## Peter Harrison45 (Aug 26, 2013)

Hi All ,
I have to agree with Harrysin, imperial V's Metric. i'd go metric. All plans that i see are always in imperial and i have to spend half a day recalculating into metric
" SUCH IS LIFE "


----------



## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

Semipro said:


> Hello


Just bringing the new kid on the block up to speed.


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Padawan Learner said:


> Harry,
> I read your post when it was first published, and didn't make much of it. But it had a way of sticking in the back of my mind.
> 
> One day I was shopping for a new tape measure and decided to get one with fine metric increments, as well as the imperial. I, like many others, found it annoying to convert from imperial fractions to their decimal equivalents, and then back to fractions in order to consolidate measurements. That's when I decided to whip out my new metric tape measure. At first it was clumsy, since I wasn't used to measuring in that way. But over the past couple of years I have found it much easier to use metric for everything. Many of my tools are imperial, but I just convert everything to metric at the beginning of my design, taking into account the metric equivalents of my imperial tools, and from that point I go totally metric. Now that I am used to it, I doubt I will be going back to imperial.
> ...


The word "stupidity" was added to ensure that a vigorous discussion would ensue, and wasn't I right! I'm sure that all who give metric a serious try will soon wonder why America hasn't joined the rest of the world. Here we go again!


----------



## OutoftheWoodwork (Oct 4, 2012)

omg Marcel you've had me in stitches this morning...

Harry, how many months ago did I argue with you on your metric? I let this dog lie, now I'm going to have 
to go back and do more reading to see what I've missed! too bloody funny!!

The weather this morning is a crisp 55 *degrees* with the temps going to roughly 73 *degrees* this afternoon.... 
you do the math. It's not my forte-thus the reason I don't make furniture lol


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Barb., it's like learning a foreign language, eventually you don't have to translate in your mind, you just understand what is being said. I'm not saying that the conversion here in Australia starting in February 1964 happened overnight, it took time. By the way what you meant I think was 12.7°C and 22.777°C, easy with a conversion list in front of me!


----------



## OutoftheWoodwork (Oct 4, 2012)

Harry, you crack me up! "_*22.777°C*_" <<< that's the crap I'm talkin about roflmbo *THREE* decimals for one freakin temperature! LOL

But... I still love ya, even if y'all are goofy gumball fishy heads over there (as Shawn would call ya lol)


----------



## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Barb, when we converted the first things that happened, by law, was that the temperature and gasoline had to be metric. In temperature a general conversion is easy. -40 is the same for both, -20C is about -5F, freezing is 0C, 10C is 50F, 20C is 68F or room temperature. Body temp is exactly 37C so if the outside temp is 37 it's hot. The hottest water you can tolerate for an extended period of time is about 50C. Boiling is 100C. (Zero and one hundred for freezing and boiling was pretty smart, no?)

The average car holds about 60-80L. A large pickup tank can hold about 120L. No one talks about the temperature or how many liters to fill your tank in imperial anymore. Grocery stores list prices in kilograms but most still list the price in lbs too for the benefit of the old timers. It really isn't as hard as most from the states have made it out to be you just have to jump in and get your feet wet.


----------



## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

Watched an episode of "Cops" last night.

The cops charged the "alleged" crim with having over 1 gram in his possession....

No wonder they (dealers) all have to carry those little scales.....The convert their ounce bags into grams......ROTHLAO.


----------



## OutoftheWoodwork (Oct 4, 2012)

Charles:

*"(Zero and one hundred for freezing and boiling was pretty smart, no?)"*

*NO*

lol and I'll leave it at that. Too bloody much conversions for me - about to send me into convulsions lol


----------



## cagenuts (May 8, 2010)

OutoftheWoodwork said:


> *"(Zero and one hundred for freezing and boiling was pretty smart, no?)"*


Yes because unlike dear old Fahrenheit, most of us don't care at what temperature _*brine *_freezes.


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

OutoftheWoodwork said:


> Harry, you crack me up! "_*22.777°C*_" <<< that's the crap I'm talkin about roflmbo *THREE* decimals for one freakin temperature! LOL
> 
> But... I still love ya, even if y'all are goofy gumball fishy heads over there (as Shawn would call ya lol)


Barb., I was giving you an exact conversion, we would actually call it 23° because it's over 22.5 and 22 if it had been under 22.5!
This is how our weather forecasts are given on radio and TV.


----------



## cagenuts (May 8, 2010)

harrysin said:


> we would actually call it 23° because it's over 22.5 and 22 if it had been under 22.5!


Or more correctly, we would call it 23° if it had been 22.5° or greater.


----------



## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Barb, do you actually believe that 32F and 212F makes more sense than zero and 100C? Seriously?


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Originally Posted by harrysin View Post
we would actually call it 23° because it's over 22.5 and 22 if it had been under 22.5!


"Or more correctly, we would call it 23° if it had been 22.5° or greater."

Isn't that EXACTLY what I said?!


----------



## cagenuts (May 8, 2010)

harrysin said:


> Isn't that EXACTLY what I said?!


Um, not _exactly_.............

You said


> over 22.5


I said


> if it had been 22.5° or greater


See the difference?


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Could this be a case of semantics or are you just being pedantic?


----------



## cagenuts (May 8, 2010)

harrysin said:


> Could this be a case of semantics or are you just being pedantic?


No neither actually. Nor belligerent, confrontational, obnoxious, impertinent or any of the other special qualities my wife says I have.

You said _greater than_ 22.5 but you should have said _greater than and including_ 22.5. (=<).

Anyway, to some degree this is now off topic :laugh:


----------



## TangoDown3727 (Oct 13, 2013)

bill kay said:


> Just a thought,
> 
> Skilled engineers, using fractions and inches, as well as a slide rule or two developed everything from modern medicine, farming, aviation and space exploration. These enlightened engineers, again using fractions and inches, even put a man on the moon.
> 
> Possibly your difficulty with tried and true measurement scales is actually a training deficiency.


:sarcastic:


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

That is rather like saying that we should still be lighting our homes with kerosene or gas lights because at the time it was better than candles. What a good job we didn't stick with the British system of rods, poles and perches!


----------



## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

TangoDown3727 said:


> :sarcastic:


Actually Dave you are no longer correct. Nasa is going metric. Metric Moon - NASA Science


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Thank you Charles for posting that, I now feel vindicated for having started this thread. It really is now only a matter of time before America becomes Metric by default and we all know how one thing leads to another! So my fellow forum members, now is a good time to start becoming familiar with the metric system, it really is as simple as you have found counting your metric money!
Hi to my good friend Tom. who I see is watching this thread!


----------



## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

Harry, I believe that 85-90% of all industry in US is already metric.

I feel they are perpetuating a myth just because they still have miles and put gallons in their cars.

Even their money is already metric........

On the way from BJ's to Los Angeles I saw a road sign that gave the distance to the next town in both miles and Km's.....Could have been on I70 or I40.


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Yes James, as I noted a while back in this thread, I've noticed more and more tools being offered in both Imperial and metric, this trend will gather speed exponentially I suspect.


----------



## carver1942 (Oct 28, 2013)

harrysin said:


> Tim, as I said in post #12, I'll be happy for just routers, guides and cutters to change to metric, just like the US currency and if enough people push for it you may all be surprised. Don't forget, this is nothing to do with your government, just the tool industry. The result will be new projects posted from members around the world!


 As a retired Tool & Diemaker, I can remember back in the 70's the government had a campaign on to convert to metric. It took off like a lead balloon. People wouldn't accept it. I loved it!! Made my work easier when I had the opportunity to work with prints in metric. No more converting silly fractions to decimals. I remember reading in major trade journals that conservative estimates to change over to metric would cost $80 billion dollars. Just to convert the dials and lead screws on machines would cost billions, When the cost for keeping inventory for replacement parts in both imperial and metric was calculated the push for metric quickly fell to the wayside. It was funny, when I worked in metric my mind would think in imperial, aaaah....25mm hmmm...., that's an inch. :happy:
regards
Ed


----------



## Lemuzz (Jul 25, 2008)

carver1942 said:


> As a retired Tool & Diemaker, I can remember back in the 70's the government had a campaign on to convert to metric. It took off like a lead balloon. People wouldn't accept it. I loved it!! Made my work easier when I had the opportunity to work with prints in metric. No more converting silly fractions to decimals. I remember reading in major trade journals that conservative estimates to change over to metric would cost $80 billion dollars. Just to convert the dials and lead screws on machines would cost billions, When the cost for keeping inventory for replacement parts in both imperial and metric was calculated the push for metric quickly fell to the wayside. It was funny, when I worked in metric my mind would think in imperial, aaaah....25mm hmmm...., that's an inch. :happy:
> regards
> Ed


Absolutely correct. but most dials and leadscrews are "dual " as are measuring equipment. But once the change is made the costs are greatly reduced and the interim period when both measurements are used it is easy to "think" both systems and work around any inconvenience.


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## Redwinkle (Sep 24, 2012)

Metric single end end mills are available. I buy carbide and HSS end mills to use in my routers. I'm not sure what diameters that you would find most useful but they're made from 0.5mm to 25 mm. Check out Production Tool Supply. A problem may be the shank diameter, the few I just looked at, the shank diameter matched the cutter diameter. Having access to a lathe you may be able to turn down the shank to fit your collet. Another option may be to open up a collet reducer (3/8" that fits 1/2" collet) to match the shank diameter. Not a perfect solution but a step in the right direction.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

I'm puzzled Mike as to why you would choose to use end mills instead of conventional router bits which are designed for high speed router use. I have a lot of end mills and slot cutters for use in milling metal and they are all Imperial sizes because my milling collet set is Imperial and the only two sizes that will safely fit the collet in all my routers are 1/4" and 1/2". I'm just curious.


----------



## Redwinkle (Sep 24, 2012)

I took a router class at Conover Workshops some years ago and the instructor suggested end mill bits for routing. Price for the solid carbide end mill, and sizes for bushing to bit diameter in some applications. I usually use router bits however there are instances that the end mill does the job.


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Do you find any different in results between end mills and conventional router bits Mike?


----------



## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Onsrud Cutter, Router Bits items in LMT Onsrud store on eBay!

==


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

The prices are right Bob but some have 3/8" shanks and others 5/8", possibly for CNC use?
there are some with 1/2" shanks but what I want to know Bob is, is there any advantage using these against conventional bits.


----------



## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Harry

Price is always a big deal for me I just got a 3 pak.of 1/2" bits for 7.oo with free shipping,I have many of his bits now some are carb. and some are HSS, the carb ones are a bit higher 10.oo ea. but they are so sharp it would blow your mind..I use the 3/8" ones all the time but not the 5/8" ones or the 3/4" ones..

===



harrysin said:


> The prices are right Bob but some have 3/8" shanks and others 5/8", possibly for CNC use?
> there are some with 1/2" shanks but what I want to know Bob is, is there any advantage using these against conventional bits.


----------



## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

I have quite a few of them too. I've even bought a bunch of the HSS ones sometimes as cheap as $1.30 each. At that price you can't go wrong. I bought quite a few in odd sized shanks, it's cheaper to buy bushings to fit than it is to buy bits with common sized shanks. I do still need to get a 12mm collet for some of them. I haven't purchased any 5/8 or 3/4 ones either but they would work in a milling machine with large enough chuck or in collets if you have them.

Bob if you didn't buy any of their miter saw blades you missed out. They are the sharpest I've ever used.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

hi

The blades are great also I have 8 of them.

==


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## fire65 (Oct 29, 2008)

Well we are still using that old system and it still works. THANK GOD Lets move on and close this thread which is going no where. 
Most of us still speak English and love it here.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

bobj3 said:


> Hi Harry
> 
> Price is always a big deal for me I just got a 3 pak.of 1/2" bits for 7.oo with free shipping,I have many of his bits now some are carb. and some are HSS, the carb ones are a bit higher 10.oo ea. but they are so sharp it would blow your mind..I use the 3/8" ones all the time but not the 5/8" ones or the 3/4" ones..
> 
> ===


Thanks for that Bob, as soon as I have time I'll try using a couple of my end mills and let you know how I find them.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

fire65 said:


> Well we are still using that old system and it still works. THANK GOD Lets move on and close this thread which is going no where.
> Most of us still speak English and love it here.


Have you not yet realised that there are heaps of other threads that you can spend your time on, any thread that you're not interested in can simply be avoided!
Of my more than 10,000 posts on this forum, only a tiny fraction have been on non-woodworking topics.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Harry

Here's a picture of what some of the bits look like.
note not end mills.............

====


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

It did cross my mind Bob that many of the bits didn't appear to be end mills but as you've just pointed out, spiral bits and the prices are really red hot.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

LMT does put a mill cutter or two on there from time to time and they are good prices too.


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

Perhaps a high helix, solid carbide, end mill would work best.


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Marcel M said:


> Perhaps a high helix, solid carbide, end mill would work best.


Have you a link to such bits Marcel. How is your wife?


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## cagenuts (May 8, 2010)

I recently received for my birthday a copy of _The Unplugged Woodshop –
Hand-Crafted Projects for the Home & Workshop by Tom Fidgen_

What made me giggle and cry at the same time was printed on the last page before the index. Tom has a simple conversion chart showing various measurements in both Imperial and Metric.

The interesting part is that he (or the publishers) somehow deemed it necessary to have a column for both millimetres (mm) and centimetres (cm).

For me, this summed up the American resistance to accepting the Metric standard.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Did they not notice that in every case the cms was exactly 10x the mms? Or maybe they were afraid we couldn't do the math.


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## cagenuts (May 8, 2010)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> Did they not notice that in every case the cms was exactly 10x the mms?


That's what is most baffling. The beauty of Metric is that you don't need to have an array of units to display quantity. 



> Or maybe they were afraid we couldn't do the math.


He is Canadian but I thought this was a bit of a slap in the face of what is most probably his biggest audience.

Anyway, good book nonetheless.


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

Grainger or MSC has a variety of end mills but I have not looked on line. Usually I just call them and tell them what I need and they ship it to my business.

Christine is improving. She has graduated from a walker to a crutch. This past week she has started to cook which is something that she enjoys and has not been able to do since early August. We have had a physical therapist work with her for a month now and she says that my wife will not be in need of her services after this week. Fortunately Christine is young, 13 years my junior, which gives her resilience. Presently I am on sabbatical but soon I will be able to get back to teaching. Thank you for asking Harry.


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

I really am pleased that your wife is recovering so well Marcel.


----------



## vjeko (Feb 5, 2009)

Guys, I've read some of the pages of what is written on this thread but I just had
to write a word, just to put some more wood on the fire so to speak.
Now, I did my schooling in Australia when we still used imperial measurements
- I had to, everyone had to- it was what was done then (now I can't imagine
something like that). 

A few days ago my daughter asked me for some help in an IT subject 
(I'm in the electronics/IT branch)- number systems - it was about numbers to 
base 2, base 8, base 16 - i.e. we convert everything from
decimal to what machines will understand in 1s and 0s. You may be asking
what is this guy on about now - well, at that time I remembered this thread - why -
well, at the time I was helping my daughter, I thought how easy it is to
see and understand a decimal number and what juggling one has to do
to compute a number in a different base - to me it's very similar to
decimal vs. imperial. Who in the world would think of doing something
stupid like using such fractions as are used in the imperial system - it doesn't
make any sense - it's plain stupid, well, to be more correct and polite, it just
isn't optimal for human beings- but someone concocted this and we're
all stuck with using it - funny :laugh::sad: 1 3/8", 1 3/16" - why would
anyone want 3/8" or 3/16" - you might as well say give me 3/8 of a bread - OK,
sorry, gone too far now


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Vjeko, my guess is the fractional system came about because you could use it to divide a length up by halving, then halving the halves, etc, with a stick with 2 marks made on it or even better, a piece of string. We don't need to be that primitive anymore. There are no end of measuring devices available. It's unfortunate that everyone didn't decide back when they first started making rulers and tape measures that it would be much smarter if all the units on them were in multiples of 10.


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## vjeko (Feb 5, 2009)

Fully agree Charles - guess we'll have to wait a bit longer as there's so much
imperial machinery out there which can't be scrapped overnight but it's good
that industry hears the buyers. Anyway, back to woodwork now.


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## Spectric (Jul 11, 2013)

Hi all

Using both metric & imperial can be handy, just makes some people stop and think when you ask them to cut something 550mm by 9 & 3/8" !

Roy


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

That wouldn't work for me. I only buy tapes that are imperial or metric and not both. I would have to convert one of them. In fact, that sounds like why you would have 2 different measures like that, you must have been using a tape with both systems on it.


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Metric Vs Imperial: End Of An Epic Battle?
By Johannes Koelman | July 6th 2010 12:21 PM | 110 comments | Print | E-mail | Track Comments

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Johannes Koelman

Which country does not belong in the following list: Burma, Liberia, Somalia, United States?

OK, that was not too difficult. As astute Scientific Blogging reader you got that right. Somalia has made the step to metric (SI) units already half a century ago, and therefore does not belong in one list together with the three remaining countries that haven't embraced the metric system yet. 

The word 'yet' seems appropriate, as with 95% of the world population adhering to metric units, it seems it will just be a matter of time for the remaining tiny fraction to go metric. The more so as the 5% BUL minority (Birma, US, Liberia) is divided amongst themselves with Birma and the US each adhering to their own customary systems of units, and Liberia not having made up their mind between SI and Imperial units. 

BUL nations (red)
The BUL gang: the rogue nations (Birma, US, Liberia) that stubbornly refuse to accept international standards on measurements. 

So give it a few years, and the world has unanimously embraced metric? 

Well, don't hold your breath. Liberia will no doubt at some stage make the transition, and Burma might do the same, but the US appears to be an anti-metric stronghold. Judged solely upon the 'metrication battles' raging at internet fora, the opposition against the 'European socialist metric plot' sneaking 'commie units' into God's own country, seems deeply rooted in American society and has unmistakingly acquired distinct political and moral angles. US columnist Dave Barry clarified these sentiments in a hyperbole that might not be too far from true feelings: 

"[..] my belief, as an American, is that if I have to start understanding the metric system, then the terrorists have won."

It should not come as a surprise that, to again quote Dave Berry:

"The metric system is not going to catch on in the States, unless you count the increasing popularity of the nine-millimeter bullet."


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

*The Grave*

One kilogram of silicon.

World's Roundest Object! - YouTube


----------



## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

I knew that the inch had been st at 2.54 cm sometime early in the 20th century so that the British and US inches could be matched. I didn't know that the pound had been set as a percentage of a kilogram. That was an interesting video Marcel.


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> I knew that the inch had been st at 2.54 cm sometime early in the 20th century so that the British and US inches could be matched. I didn't know that the pound had been set as a percentage of a kilogram. That was an interesting video Marcel.


Pleased that you enjoyed it.


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## almost there (Apr 12, 2011)

when working with 64th of 1 inch, metric is the way to go. I suspect the American engineers, etc used metric for calculations and converted them for those who like imperial. Most if not all my shop measuring gadgets have both metric and imperial units


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Thank you for that fascinating video Marcel. Since I started this thread I've noticed a great deal more mention of metric on American sites and advertisements.


----------



## TRN_Diesel (Feb 24, 2009)

Thanks for a fascinating video Marcel. 

The question for me is if the mass of an object changes over time at what point do we correct the unit? Four of the other SI units are link to the kg so does this mean there units change over time as well?.......hmmmmmmm


----------



## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

None of them were supposed to change according to the knowledge at the time. The metre was originally supposed to be 1/10,000,000 of the distance from the equator to the poles if I remember right but they discovered that the earth wasn't static in size so they changed it to a given number of wavelengths of light from a krypton 86 light source.


What really surprised me was that the clones of the original kilogram standard all changed weight by different amounts. I'd love to hear the explanation for that. Where did the missing molecules go?


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

No words necessary!


----------



## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

TRN_Diesel said:


> The question for me is if the mass of an object changes over time at what point do we correct the unit? Four of the other SI units are link to the kg so does this mean there units change over time as well?.......hmmmmmmm


If the mass of the each "Le Gran K" clone change differently than how could we correct for the unit? Each unit shows a different mass. What we need is a more stable physical unit and a theoretical standard hence the silicon spheroid and the unit of measure based on the Planck constant (6.62606X x10-34 J s). How do we know that the "Le Grande K" is losing weight at all? Couldn't the other units be gaining weight? There is a movement to define many (or all?) of the SI units by non-changeable phenomena.


----------



## TRN_Diesel (Feb 24, 2009)

It is my understanding they want to change the definition to essentially say they are counting the atoms in mass opposed to the mass being defined by its weight in kilograms.

Never the less it is very interesting and makes you re-consider things we once thought to be easily understood.


----------



## wbrisett (Feb 12, 2011)

harrysin said:


> No words necessary!



But not necessarily entirely accurate.  

Having spent 12 years of my life in the military, I can tell you that the US military is primarily metric. However, most parts of everyday life are a mix. You buy carbonated sodas in both metric (1 and 2 litre bottles) and imperial (12 and 16 ounce cans). However, we're mostly imperial. That said, some places (Britain) should also have a tinge of red since they drive in miles per hour, yet measure distance in meters.  

I work for a UK company, so all of our measurements are in metric, and having lived for a brief time in Canada myself, I understand both systems. But honestly when you don't grow up with the system you tend to want to convert it over (at least I did ... I'd pass bank signs with 20 degree temperatures and have to quickly convert that over to 68 for myself because somethings are just hard to break).

That said, I think we shot ourselves in the foot when we backed out of the agreement to move to metric back in the 1970s. The reason then is it was going to cost industries too much money. Well, I think the cost today would be much higher and as your graphic shows, we're really in the minority now. But I also think with our much more entrenched Us vs. the rest of the world mentality, it would be harder to push the metric system through and move everybody over to at this time.


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## Tom King (Jan 22, 2014)

A friend recently bought a Range Rover (or maybe Land Rover) cheap because it needed some engine work. The block is the same as a late '60s Buick aluminum V8. All the topend is modernized. ALL the bolts in, or screwed into the block were SAE. Everything else was Metric. Some metric stuff bolted to the block had to have some parts with SAE threads, and some Metric. I understood why it was sold cheap.


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

Tom, I believe that one model Land Rover was made by Honda...That could explain something..


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## cagenuts (May 8, 2010)

If you need encouragement to move over to Metric, just watch this segment of Colin Knecht's video on installing euro hinges.

The over complicated calculations using Imperial would be vastly simplified if he just used Metric. I'm not knocking his video at all, just thought it highlights the flaws in the Imperial measuring system.


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## rpludwig (Nov 22, 2011)

harrysin said:


> No words necessary!


funny...the moment I saw that map in the video I thought Harry might jump on it!!!!

(amazing what one does/watches on a winter day when it's 5*F (...err minus 15 celsius) outside....


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## TRN_Diesel (Feb 24, 2009)

I have been following this thread for a long time and find it interesting how people seem to take sides on using either of the two measuring systems.

To say one is better than the other is unfair. Hilton has pointed to a video made in which the woodworker's strong suit is definitely not math. This doesn't make the imperial system bad it just means the process he uses is flawed. Fractions tend to scare people and hence the reason I think people migrate over to the metric system. In the video what the woodwork fails to do is divide the fraction in half by simply multiplying the denominator by 2 (bottom number of the fraction) and the top number (numerator) by 1. Hence 1/2 of 7/8 would be 7/16. Therefore half of 23 7/8 would be 11 1/2 (8/16) + 7/16 = 11 15/16  All that is left is to add the distance the tongue protrudes into the groove. I like to use 7/16" so the two tennons would be 14/16" or 7/8" (divide the top and bottom by 2)

What is important here is people will always work in the system they are most comfortable. I prefer the imperial system but switch back and forth with the metric system in other measurements (distance km, volume litres, weight kilograms). Truth be know I always tend to use a story stick and transfer measurements rather than using a tape measure.

Never the less this debate will rage on long after I die!


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## GTVi (May 14, 2010)

Imperial vs those using or are in the process of metrication by Country. Source: Internet.


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## Grumpy Old Tom (Feb 25, 2011)

*More fodder*

But even that isn't entirely true; the US is definitely a mixed bag.  I have a full set of tools in both systems, and I can use whichever units system is most convenient. I'll agree that is more expensive overall, though.

Funny, though, I don't buy IKEA furniture. Strangely enough, I can see the difference in metric proportioning versus Imperial, and I don't like it. Say what you want, I know as well as any of you that 36" = 91.44 cm and I'd never see that. But they don't size it that way, I don't think (were it me I'd be using 90 or 95 or even 92 cm, something round) , and then like I said the relative proportions seem different. YMMV!

I ain't been around for a long time and that's a shame, but I got this notice on my email & thought I'd pop in.

Best to all!

Tom


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## almost there (Apr 12, 2011)

this is for Dan, TRN Diesel--Very good post. You provided some good lessons. If my old dad was still alive, and he read your post, he'd say, "now that man uses his head for something other than a hat rack"


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

GTVi said:


> Imperial vs those using or are in the process of metrication by Country. Source: Internet.


Note we now have an announced candidate for President who is running, among many other things, on bringing the metric system to everyday use in the USA!


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Canada is _officially_ Metric, but in practise we're still using Imperial. Even the young kids prefer Imperial, once they've used it. In conversation, you'll almost never hear people under 30 referring to something in Metric terms. As I and others have been saying ad nauseam, Metric has no Humanity to it; it means nothing in the real World.
(When my grandson was born in Jan., the Hospital told the parents the sprouts weight in _Imperial_. I was pleasantly shocked!  )


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

In time imperial will just fade away into oblivion, just like the cubit did. It's inevitable. Eventually they will just stop making SAE nuts and bolts, studs will be placed on 40cm centers, plywood will be 1200x2400 cm, etc.


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

Metric is so boring.


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## Gaffboat (Mar 11, 2012)

Herb Stoops said:


> Metric is so boring.


Yep. No calculation challenge whatsoever.


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

For whoever has the honor, please tell Harry his thread has come back to life!:smile:


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

He's still around.


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## cagenuts (May 8, 2010)

More than five years later and this thread is still active 

I just want to know when manufactures will start to supply decent Metric tools. In my man cave I have no use for a 16oz hammer nor a 3/16 flat screw driver.


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## john60 (Aug 30, 2014)

In 1965 the Scripto Co. in Atlanta were hiring drafting students at my college part time to convert all there drawings to metric as the changeto metric in the US was immenent. 

And while we did put a man on the moon we also missed one of the deep probes with a misstake in a unit conversion.

It is the intermingling that is hard


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## Lemuzz (Jul 25, 2008)

Yes Conversion from imperial is harder than measuring with metrics. Thank goodness for dual rules, tapes and verniers


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

I am back Tom, this is the first time since I was struck down with a viral infection. I'm sure that I've mentioned more than once on this thread that even I sometimes use Imperial, for instance when taking a measurement with a dual scale rule sometimes an Imperial division is spot on.


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

It's good to see you back, Harry.


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

harrysin said:


> I am back Tom, this is the first time since I was struck down with a viral infection. I'm sure that I've mentioned more than once on this thread that even I sometimes use Imperial, for instance when taking a measurement with a dual scale rule sometimes an Imperial division is spot on.


Harry, I am overjoyed by your return and your rapid recovery!

When I first learned of your health issues I thought of my father who at about your age had similar, albeit probably less sophisticated procedures on his heart. It took him about a year to regain his strength. Then after 5 months of a fat salt fat sugar fat diet and a fall that caused significant internal injuries, my blood count was less than 2/3 normal, and it knocked my energy levels big time. It took 1 1/2 years of iron and B12 supplements to get back to normal. 

Even in th USA blood work results are reported in metric.


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

harrysin said:


> I am back Tom, this is the first time since I was struck down with a viral infection. I'm sure that I've mentioned more than once on this thread that even I sometimes use Imperial, for instance when taking a measurement with a dual scale rule sometimes an Imperial division is spot on.


That must have been some virus. Was it identified? 
(I've been teaching for a popular audience from a book that starts with the Hendra virus that struck Eastern Australia, and I am investigating literature on a virus much more dangerous than originally thought, West Nile Virus)

yes, certainly there are advantages to being "bilingual", metric and imperial.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

An unfortunate after effect of of being inactive for so long is that I'm now lazy and in danger of becoming a procrastinator, something that has always been foreign to me.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

harrysin said:


> An unfortunate after effect of of being inactive for so long is that I'm now lazy and in danger of becoming a procrastinator, something that has always been foreign to me.


try it...
it helps w/ setting the priorities straight...


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## Larkan (Apr 13, 2012)

Marcel whats the wording on that T Shirt ...... Blood is thicker etc
The small print is too darn small and I can't enlarge it.


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## Larkan (Apr 13, 2012)

harrysin said:


> An unfortunate after effect of of being inactive for so long is that I'm now lazy and in danger of becoming a procrastinator, something that has always been foreign to me.


welcome back Harry


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

Larkan said:


> Marcel whats the wording on that T Shirt ...... Blood is thicker etc
> The small print is too darn small and I can't enlarge it.


BLOOD IS THICKER THAN WATER
BUT MAPLE SYRUP IS THICKER THAN BLOOD
SO TECHNICALLY PANCAKES ARE MORE IMPORTANT THAN FAMILY

:grin:


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

And we haven't even covered waffles and French toast!


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

I thought procrastination was normal at our ages.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

john60 said:


> In 1965 the Scripto Co. in Atlanta were hiring drafting students at my college part time to convert all there drawings to metric as the changeto metric in the US was immenent.
> 
> And while we did put a man on the moon we also missed one of the deep probes with a misstake in a unit conversion.
> 
> It is the intermingling that is hard


Intermingling is indeed the problem. If we could get 3/4 ply instead of 18mm, a large part of the problem would go away. Metric does make for simpler math. Glad you're back Harry.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> I thought procrastination was normal at our ages.


that's some that I've been meaning to get around to...


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

DaninVan said:


> And we haven't even covered waffles and French toast!


they are already eaten..


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## schnewj (Nov 18, 2013)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> I thought procrastination was normal at our ages.


WAT! It's not normal, it's a way of life!:grin::grin::grin:


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## sunnybob (Apr 3, 2015)

harrysin said:


> I don't doubt for a moment what you say but here we are not professional fine furniture makers, the majority of members are like me, amateur woodworkers. Many of course are professionals in other fields, like dentistry, electronics, electrical engineering, mechanical engineering etc. But, it doesn't alter the fact that in routing, template guides and cutters are are so much easier to calculate off-sets which is an important part of advanced routing. As a matter of interest, how do YOU measure a 51/64" template guide?


Millimeters to Inches table

LUJII 150MM Electronic Digital Calipers Veriner with: Amazon.co.uk: Electronics


easy peasy lemon squeezy


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

schnewj said:


> WAT! It's not normal, it's a way of life!:grin::grin::grin:


an art....


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

sunnybob said:


> Millimeters to Inches table
> 
> LUJII 150MM Electronic Digital Calipers Veriner with: Amazon.co.uk: Electronics
> 
> ...


I'm not quite sure what Harry's original point was(?)...

In the table below the fractional equivalents in Imperial and Metric.
Who counts off 64ths?


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## Moz (Nov 13, 2015)

Cochese said:


> We seem to deal with inches just fine, too. It's only a bit of math.
> 
> And honestly, I'd much rather see a change to liquid measurements first, if we're picking priorities.


I'll throw in a vote for cooking recipes that measure solids by the cup (flour, sugar, salt, etc.) instead of by weight.

And my scale has both Metric and Imperial.
I find that for baking solids, I'm a Metric girl, but liquids and measuring, Imperial all the way... 500 mg flour, 3/4 cup water, 10 mg salt, 50 mg yeast = pizza dough...

~M


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## Shadowrider (Apr 1, 2015)

I used to cuss the metric system. That is until I worked in a machine shop where EVERYTHING was metric. Blueprints, CNC programs, measuring tools, all of it. After about 5 minutes it became clear that the metric system with having everything based on 10 was vastly simpler. Still took a long time but once used to it, it really is simpler and generally more accurate since the measuring tools (micrometers, indicators, etc.) have just over twice the resolution. I still use my metric scales to this day and do have a couple of pair of vernier calipers that don't get a lot of use.

What I cuss now is manufacturers that use both systems on the same piece of equipment. That's a whole nuther thing...


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

The biggest problem most people have in using metric is that they are compelled to convert metric to Imperial. I have 2 tapes and a few rulers that only have metric on them. It is much easier dealing with it that way. You just read the metric measure off the tape/ruler and don't worry about what it is in Imperial.


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## Nobodi (Oct 22, 2015)

hi when I started my apprenticeship it was a only a couple of years after Australia had converted to the metric system at the time you couldn't get an imperial tape measure but we had to make things from drawings that were still in imperial measurements.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> The biggest problem most people have in using metric is that they are compelled to convert metric to Imperial. I have 2 tapes and a few rulers that only have metric on them. It is much easier dealing with it that way. You just read the metric measure off the tape/ruler and don't worry about what it is in Imperial.


ditto...


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

terryvk6pq said:


> I can still "see" with my eye 1/16th or 1/18 of an inch but have to check with a rule when switching to metric as my "eye" does not "see" say 7mm.
> Bloody confusing!!!!!!!!!!!
> I can still judge a 1 inch gap or mark to within a couple of mm but find it more difficult to judge a 25mm gap or mark to within a 1/16 of an inch??!!??!!??!!
> Like I said........Bloody Confusing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> Terry vk6pq


The problem for me is that I have great difficulty establishing a mental concept of metric distinces, thicknesses, lengths, so when I eyeball or try to conceptualize, I am at a loss. This has to do with what you're raised with. Metric is really simple for calculation, even for measurement, but the lack of ability to visualize in metric is really hard to overcome. I also have no interest in changing over all my gear to metric--too expensive at this point.


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

You are exactly right Tom, I can look at a piece of wood and tell closely how wide long and thick it is,sometimes the exact measurements, but have no idea how many meters,mm, kilometers, etc.

When I look at a distance I can tell you approximately how many feet or yards something is , but don't have a clue how many meters.
Same with temperature. When I was in college it was Centigrade,now Celsius. I know that 0 deg C is freezing for water and 100 degrees C is boiling for water. But have no idea without calculating what room temp. is. But if I see a thermometer saying 75 degrees , I under stand that, or I can say it feels like 70 degrees. and I understand that. 

It is like a second language,"Do you speak Metric , do you speak Fahrenheit ? I am not good at learning and speaking other languages.

Herb


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

You weren't born with the ability to visualize Imperial either.


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> You weren't born with the ability to visualize Imperial either.


yes I was!!!! :nerd:


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

TwoSkies57 said:


> yes I was!!!! :nerd:


me too..


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> You weren't born with the ability to visualize Imperial either.


destiny...


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

My BS detector is at about 120 db right now.


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> My BS detector is at about 120 db right now.


Mine broke a long,long time ago in here...good to know yours is working>


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> My BS detector is at about 120 db right now.


Is that in metric db;s or imperial db's?

Herb


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Quoted from Wiki-Although permissible, the bel is rarely used with other SI unit prefixes than deci. It is preferred to use hundredths of a decibel rather than millibels

So that makes it metric and it is measured in powers of 10. The powers of 10 is the giveaway to that. If it were Imperial it would be divided by 3 (as in feet per yard), or 5280 (as in feet per mile), or 4 (as in Quarts per gallon) or 32 (as in ounces per quart), or some other logical quantity. I`m starting to think that Imperial must have been designed to improve your math skills.>


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> My BS detector is at about 120 db right now.


if it gets too loud and unbearable...
use one of these ...


.


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

FOFLMAO......ohhhhhhhhh man, could I get in trouble with that!!!

damn, that is the first time I have EVER used FOFLMAO..EVER....


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

TwoSkies57 said:


> FOFLMAO......ohhhhhhhhh man, could I get in trouble with that!!!
> 
> damn, that is the first time I have EVER used FOFLMAO..EVER....


gimme 5 to set up the ticket booth and then proceed...


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Imperially speaking...


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

Oh, hello...did somebody ring the door-bel...?


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Nickp said:


> Oh, hello...did somebody ring the door-bel...?


it was the clue phone ya didn't hear...


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

I recently bought a tape measure that had imperial on one edge, metric on the other. Makes conversion much easier. My table saw has an imperial scale under a movable magnifier. I guess I could attach a metric strip using the zero line as the start point, that would probably help. 

It seems its what you get exposed to is the scale you think in, yards or meters. My guess is that having a physical double scale would eventually allow you to form a mental concept of a meter rather than thinking, 39 or so inches. It would be a function of using brain plasticity to your advantage. Here is a stainless meter stick with SAE markings as well. I'm going to try to retrain my thinking. amazon.com/Meter-Stainless-Steel-Ruler-Metric/dp/B0083JRSKK/ref=sr_1_12?ie=UTF8&qid=1451399060&sr=8-12&keywords=meter+stick

Then there is the matter of old eyes trying to distinguish 1mm separations when many of us have problems with 16ths, at least without strong glasses and plenty of light.


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

DesertRatTom said:


> I recently bought a tape measure t
> Then there is the matter of old eyes trying to distinguish 1mm separations when many of us have problems with 16ths, at least without strong glasses and plenty of light.


My Jessem router table fence scale is in both, and I use the metric to bump the fence back and forth to make fine adjustments. I don't set it with the metric scale, only increase or decrease the setting by 1mm marks.
I also have a tape measure like that Tom, but don't measure with it on the metric scale. I use the metric mm to fine adjust measurements because they are easier to see than 32nds.

Herb


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## old coasty (Aug 15, 2014)

]It's not woodworking, but wrenches for my MG TD were not Metric or SAE, THEY WERE Whitworth. 

British Morris and MG engines from 1923 to 1955 were built using metric threads but with bolt heads and nuts dimensioned for Whitworth spanners and sockets.[5] The background for this was that the engines were produced using machine tools of a previously French-owned company that was set up for metric production; for the average British motorist to be able to service his car, the bolt heads had to fit imperial-sized spanners.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

I had two BSA motorcycles when I was young which used Whitworth bolts and screws. Neither a US Imperial set of wrenches fit nor did a set of metric but between the two I could find one close enough to get the bolts off and back on. As I understood it at the time the Whitworth bolt heads were sized in decimal inch rather than fractional inch.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Went to visit a friend's workshop today and he had a like new British bike stashed in there. He had collected all three types of tools so he could work on them. He built high performance engines for fun and profit while working as a machinist for the Atkinson-Topeka & Santa Fe. (How often do you get to write that!) My brother had a Norton Commando (fast as hell) and also had to keep 3 sets of tool as well, seemed like he had to use them all the time. I spent a year as PR for Kawasaki and recall hearing an editor explain why an oil drip pan was a necessary accessory: This editor toured a british factory and saw all the great new tools, and then, the shiny new parts were placed on 100 year old, rough hewn tables covered with nails, staples, metal shavings. Result? Oil leaks and the frequent need for tools.


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## Lemuzz (Jul 25, 2008)

Excellent post. I agree completely


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## Kitwn (Oct 14, 2017)

*The Babylonians had it right...*

I do prefer metric to imperial measurements (why do people call them 'English', the English went metric years ago?) but it was the Babylonians who had the right idea using numbers in base 60. How many integer options do you have when dividing ten? 1/2 = 5, 1/5 =2, that's your lot. But 60! 1/2 = 30, 1/3 = 20, 1/4 = 15, 1/5 = 12, 1/6 = 10, 1/10 = 6, 1/12 = 5, 1/15 = 4, 1/20 = 3, 1/30 =2. So I say we abandon all the current systems and start again with 60 seconds to a minute, 60 minutes to a metre. Simple:wink:

Kit

PS All measurements have been metric since the 1930's when the international inch was defined as exactly 25.4mm


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## dovetail_65 (Jan 22, 2008)

Measurements are only a guide for a human to be able to relate, I relate to imperial and it works well, it's how my mind works. 

Because I have a science degree I also learned to relate to metric and decimal, BUT when I think of general length I instinctively think mile, yard, foot and inch. I have an internal feel for these because it's what I used as a child. When I think money I think fractionally usually, but when I think CNC I think in mils or MIL or thousandths of an inch. In other words .001 of an inch. It's what we learned and used for metal machining and for me just how I think naturally for items I cut on a mill or CNC or any small measurement I think of in my mind. Thousandths of an inch works very well for me in all the CNC software too. .003 to .005 of an inch are great offsets for inlay work and I can see .015 and feel even less with my fingers. Hundredths of an inch for precision work is far better than I need for wood and it's still units of tens, or tenths, hundredths etc, so it's just as simple to change measurements as it is in metric. And FOR ME .001 of an inch is a better unit than a millimeter, other wise I have to start using fractional millimeter units. Believe it or not 1 millimeter is just too large, I find 1 mil is the perfect small measurement.

I don't think Imperial is stupid as long as the human can relate and work with the system it doesn't matter what system they use. If you get a file from me it's going to be in thousandth's of an inch, if you want it in metric you will have to change it over yourself.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Most of the world doesn't agree with you.


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

I think that in this thread it is very apparent that Harry Sinclair is of unique mentality that sets him apart of the majority of the population of the world.

We need to undersand this and not let his absurd statements cause us to get upset, Harry is, a generous, man, willingly to help anybody with anything that he can, but at the same time his mentality is unique.

Jerry


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Jerry; when _you_ drop the hammer it's best not to be under it! 
Ouch!! LOL
That set a new standard for the 'Have You Stopped Beating Your Wife Yet' category...


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Harry is correct, most of the world doesn't agree. There are only 3 countries left worldwide that use Imperial measure and I'm not sure that they are the same. The British inch and US inch were different until around 1939 when they were standardized to equal to 25.4mm. The reason for this was that the US was helping make parts for British .303 caliber rifles and the parts didn't always fit because of the slight difference in the values of the inch. The gallon was also different (4.55L as opposed to 3.79L) and there were 160 ounces to it. Countries currently using Imperial measure represent about 1/14th of the world's population and that will decrease to zero eventually. There is zero chance that it will increase. 

What you are accustomed to and what makes sense are often totally different. Read the following carefully and then be my guest at making a logical argument as to how it is intelligent. 12 inches= 1 foot. 3 feet= 1 yard. 5280 feet or 1760 yards equal a mile. An acre is 43,560 sq ft. You can't actually square an acre. It's 208 feet and an irrational fraction if you try. It can only be a rectangle. There are 16 ounces to the pound but it also equal to 7000 grains. And let's not forget drams and carats, rods, chains, perches and rest of the Imperial system. 

So someone make a logical argument as to why Harry's is wrong. I suppose his title for this thread could have been a bit more tactful and less abrasive but his assessment is correct. And don't forget that at his age he started out with the Imperial system. He was well along in years before his countries adopted metric so he has been on both sides of the argument.


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> Harry is correct, most of the world doesn't agree. There are only 3 countries left worldwide that use Imperial measure and I'm not sure that they are the same. The British inch and US inch were different until around 1939 when they were standardized to equal to 25.4mm. The reason for this was that the US was helping make parts for British .303 caliber rifles and the parts didn't always fit because of the slight difference in the values of the inch. The gallon was also different (4.55L as opposed to 3.79L) and there were 160 ounces to it. Countries currently using Imperial measure represent about 1/14th of the world's population and that will decrease to zero eventually. There is zero chance that it will increase.
> 
> What you are accustomed to and what makes sense are often totally different. Read the following carefully and then be my guest at making a logical argument as to how it is intelligent. 12 inches= 1 foot. 3 feet= 1 yard. 5280 feet or 1760 yards equal a mile. An acre is 43,560 sq ft. You can't actually square an acre. It's 208 feet and an irrational fraction if you try. It can only be a rectangle. There are 16 ounces to the pound but it also equal to 7000 grains. And let's not forget drams and carats, rods, chains, perches and rest of the Imperial system.
> 
> So someone make a logical argument as to why Harry's is wrong. I suppose his title for this thread could have been a bit more tactful and less abrasive but his assessment is correct. And don't forget that at his age he started out with the Imperial system. He was well along in years before his countries adopted metric so he has been on both sides of the argument.





In my opinion, Charles is, as we say "spot on" in regard to both issues. 

Jerry


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## dovetail_65 (Jan 22, 2008)

?
Most of the world doesn't agree that systems of measurement are simply a tool for humans to relate to a distance? That's a fact and the point of my post. If they dont agree with that they don't understand what systems of units are for. 

Actually, I would say every country in the world agrees with me, that measurements are simply a tools for humans to relate to distance and both systems work, actually that's a fact as proved by the millions of projects us American's pump put every year. 

How could anyone disagree with how I relate to measurements and how my mind own mind works. That is is what my post talks about. People disagreeing doesn't change that fact. Though I can use metric and most likely better than most, I prefer Imperial and mils specifically for my CNC units.

More to the point people that choose to use metric seem to always care so much, why do they care? I don't care they use metric. If they are frustrated with Imperial just use metric and make some nice projects, I'll stick to what I think and not what "most others" think. I think that both systems work and it really doesn't matter which we use. One is not better than the other, one may be simpler to use for large group of people but it doesn't make it better for every person. The results are always going to be the same using either system no matter the application. I say use whatever is simplest for each person.


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

dovetail_65 said:


> ?
> Most of the world doesn't agree that systems of measurement are simply a tool for humans to relate to a distance? That's a fact and the point of my post. If they dont agree with that they don't understand what systems of units are for.
> 
> Actually, I would say every country in the world agrees with me, that measurements are simply a tools for humans to relate to distance and both systems work, actually that's a fact as proved by the millions of projects us American's pump put every year.
> ...


Dovetail,
I could not agree with you more, makes perfect sense. Certain people hve a closed mind to anything that is foreign to what the have known and used all of their lives, that's just natural.

Everything that I have read about Astronomy, lwhich is is not all that much comepared to real astromoners, Emperical numbers are used, at least here in the U.S..

Distances to the moon, the sun, light year distances etc. etc.. If I had been raised on the metric system, I would be as familiar with it as I am on the Emperical system.

But what Harrys said about the Eperical system must be used very little compared to the metric system. I for one didn't know that and will add, I could not care less.

The Emperical system may seem stupid to Harry, but people that use it are not stupeid, he did say that they were, but he sort of implied that he thinks that, or so it sounded to me. I suspect that Harry will clear that point up as he is not one to run rough shot over people, at least not all of the time, ummmmm

Jerry


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Actually, Jerry, I brought that point up a couple of years back, and no, Harry did not apologize for insinuating by implication that Imperial measurement users are stupid.
I'm not going back through 30 odd pages of posts to find it either; it's somewhere past pg. 10. 
I walked away from the discussion at that point. Let me just say that I'm surprised that it's been revived.

Like Dovetail said, to each their own.


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## jj777746 (Jan 17, 2015)

My entire schooling was based on the Imperial system & I am absolutely positive I could have done better at mathematics (I achieved only C) with the Metric system as it is so much simpler to use.
So I think some members are missing the point of Harry's post as,put simply,with some metric measure to find the answer,one only needs to move the decimal point.Jamesjj


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## dovetail_65 (Jan 22, 2008)

No we are not missing the point. The wording "the utter stupidity" implies anyone that uses it is stupid and even if that's not the intent it is what it is and could of been stated better.

Metric units were made up just like Imperial units and only very recently has the meter been equated to a length of light so really metric isn't any better in that sense. There were many weird definition for meter over the years. Now the standard is :

*The meter is the length of the path traveled by light in vacuum during a time interval of 1/299 792 458 of a second. Note that the effect of this definition is to fix the speed of light in vacuum at exactly 299 792 458 m.*

That is just as weird as a King saying a foot is the length of his foot. If you dont think so please tell me what the meter is again a minute from now without reading the definition I just wrote. I am betting many if not most people that use metric don't have a clue of the definition and who cares it really does not matter as long as it stays the same.

The point is the distances stay the same and universal so we can manipulate distances and weights, etc in a consistent manner.

What people really mean when they say metric is better and makes more sense really has little to do with metric nomenclature itself, what they mean and what they like and think is simpler is that metric uses the decimal system base 10 to break down it's defined units in multiples of tens, tenths, hundredths, thousandths, etc. For most humans these are very simple to work with. It's not that a meter or gram make more sense, but that the decimal base 10 system is used for the metric unit break down and manipulation.

It is very true too. Most humans can manipulate 10's much easier, but heck I can use a hexadecimal base 12 pretty fast too, but base 12 is cumbersome for small numbers, great for really large numbers though. Since in woodworking and CNC we use small numbers metric makes sense for many as some dont want to think fractionally, but for me mils make even more sense as I can use the base 10 benefit of metric in the imperial inch unit using thousandths or .001 inch. Which again I feel is a better measurement for my type of woodworking and especially, precise small cnc work. For me a millimeter is too large, but a manometer is too small, .001 inch is preferct6.

It boils done to what each person can use and get the results they want with the least amount of effort, it it is metric great, if it is Imperial great. Neither are stupid.

I am not sure why you think metric would of made your schooling any easier, we all learned it in 3rd grade through high school here in the US. My kids are using both SI units and Metric right now and we did back in the 80's well. I college of course we use both and back in 3rd grade is when I was first exposed to metric, I am 52 years old, so we do learn metric in the US, possibly in your state it was different?


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## jj777746 (Jan 17, 2015)

Oh boy,it was different alright.It's the same with our language.I say school not shool & yet I was taught to pronounce schedule as shed ule not schedule.You say sodder we say sol der.These are just a couple of examples I'm trying to explain (& am not receiving much help from spellcheck).So when I read Harry's post I couldn't see anything wrong with it.It's his way of saying a certain system is stupid & no way was he inferring the people who use that system are stupid.It's just the way we talk down here mate.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

I agree with James that it's the system that is stupid and not the people that use it. And as as Dovetail points out, it's possible to use a ridiculously illogical measuring system as long as it's consistently reproducible. And if I'm not mistaken DT, the US standard is also now based on a given number of wavelengths of light emitted by energizing krypton 86 gas. When I was young and studying physics the standard was a platinum iridium bar with two scratches in in stored deep underground in a vault but I heard years later that the bar was found to be losing weight which meant that it was not stable and couldn't be trusted. Just as the original standard for the metre was found to be unreliable which the French Academy of Science couldn't have known in 1792 when they devised the system. It was meant to be equal to 1/10,000,000th of the distance of the equator to the poles but they didn't know that the earth is shrinking and that it wouldn't be a constant. And that was the goal of the Academy was to create a system that would be consistent forever. And it is and it's reproducible anywhere in the universe where light and water exist.


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## Larkan (Apr 13, 2012)

I've made a number of items from plans and the plans with Imperial measurements, e.g. one was an elec Guitar, another a toy truck. For the guitar I converted everything on an internet "conversion" site and wrote up the plans. No problems just a little more work.
Then during winter when the antique hand tools people had their biannual sale here I bought an imperial rule for $3.00

I'd reckon it's line ball which will change first in the USA gun laws or imperial measurement, spit in one hand and wish in the other as the saying goes...........

Cheers Kerry


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

dovetail_65 said:


> No we are not missing the point. The wording "the utter stupidity" implies anyone that uses it is stupid and even if that's not the intent it is what it is and could of been stated better.
> 
> Metric units were made up just like Imperial units and only very recently has the meter been equated to a length of light so really metric isn't any better in that sense. There were many weird definition for meter over the years. Now the standard is :
> 
> ...


The "like" button was pressed in error"

"No we are not missing the point. The wording "the utter stupidity" implies anyone that uses it is stupid and even if that's not the intent it is what it is and could of been stated better."


Your understanding of the English language is far different to mine and my education was in England. The utter stupidity of the Imperial system refers to those who invented it, certainly not the users of the system. For some reason that I can't fathom the title of the thread appears to have hit a raw nerve with you. No other reader of the thread has taken exception to it, they have simply given their opinion, whether agreeing or disagreeing.


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## AudioHTIT (Jul 26, 2017)

Wow, this thread has been going for seven years! I thought I was persistent. I haven’t read more than a few posts, but I’m guessing there are a few dead horses along the way? I will say I was very disappointed back in the early 80’s when they took down the metric speed signs and dropped our conversion, not only was I getting good at rattling off my speed in kph, but I was young enough and wanted to make the change (though I did wonder what a 4x8 sheet of plywood would look like).


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Yes Harry, another reader _has_ taken exception to it, Me, and as I previously stated that was a couple of years ago and I'm not going looking for the exchange.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Changed my mind; I _did_ go looking for it...
Router Forums - View Single Post - The utter stupidity of Imperial measurements
Router Forums - View Single Post - The utter stupidity of Imperial measurements
Router Forums - View Single Post - The utter stupidity of Imperial measurements
Router Forums - View Single Post - The utter stupidity of Imperial measurements
Router Forums - View Single Post - The utter stupidity of Imperial measurements
------http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-iKcoNSjodCg/UL4oAoQvFbI/AAAAAAAASEc/fW7pldpsK_o/s1600/oacg656.gif

And finally:
*Router Forums - View Single Post - The utter stupidity of Imperial measurements*


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Some body needs to remind Harry and a few others the facts...

It all about MONEY, four instance NASA claims it would cost $370 million to revamp their software and their manuals.....
The cost to remodel or repair buildings and structures be astronomical....

but the real deal is....
Now it may be correct that the USA is one of the last to change over but there is 326 million people in the USA to retrain now that is more people then Australia, England and Canada combined....


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## AudioHTIT (Jul 26, 2017)

Stick486 said:


> ...
> Now it may be correct that the USA is one of the last to change over but there is 326 million people in the USA to retrain now that is more people then Australia, England and Canada combined....


I agree it’s probably too late for us, and would be very expensive, but if we had continued the conversion when we started it in the 70’s there were over 100 million fewer people. It will never be a good time, but the US population has roughly doubled in my lifetime (66 yrs), and it’s not going to get easier anytime soon. I’m not advocating we change, we don’t have the conviction.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

DaninVan said:


> Yes Harry, another reader _has_ taken exception to it, Me, and as I previously stated that was a couple of years ago and I'm not going looking for the exchange.


My apologies, BUT out of the 90,000 views I wonder how many did take exception to the title/thread. I have no regrets about starting the thread, just look at the interest it created.


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## Shop guy (Nov 22, 2012)

As I have posted earlier my opinion is the USA should have made the change when it was started many years ago. I think metric is superior but I agree with Stick that to change today is impractical, to expensive and would not be supported.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Stick486 said:


> Some body needs to remind Harry and a few others the facts...
> 
> It all about MONEY, four instance NASA claims it would cost $370 million to revamp their software and their manuals.....
> The cost to remodel or repair buildings and structures be astronomical....
> ...


Stick if you go back to near the beginning you'll find the link I supplied to an article where NASA announced that they would no longer be doing any calculations using Imperial units. I suspect that the announcement was well after the fact. When I majored in physics in the late 60s, very early 70s, we were only taught in metric. Engineers were still using Imperial and maybe they still are but as Otis has mentioned, he's had jobs that required him to give the results in metric so I'm not sure if that's true still.

As for the comments that's it too expensive, it was considered too expensive in the 80s when it was first suggested. That dollar figure is paltry when compared to today's cost and today's cost is paltry compared to the eventual cost when there is no choice anymore. There are already more metric parts on an automobile than SAE parts. All of the US's foreign trade is done in metric. The clock is ticking downward and no one down there should assume that it won't happen in their lifetime.


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## AudioHTIT (Jul 26, 2017)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> Stick if you go back to near the beginning you'll find the link I supplied to an article where NASA announced that they would no longer be doing any calculations using Imperial units. I suspect that the announcement was well after the fact. When I majored in physics in the late 60s, very early 70s, we were only taught in metric. Engineers were still using Imperial and maybe they still are but as Otis has mentioned, he's had jobs that required him to give the results in metric so I'm not sure if that's true still.
> 
> As for the comments that's it too expensive, it was considered too expensive in the 80s when it was first suggested. That dollar figure is paltry when compared to today's cost and today's cost is paltry compared to the eventual cost when there is no choice anymore. There are already more metric parts on an automobile than SAE parts. All of the US's foreign trade is done in metric. The clock is ticking downward and no one down there should assume that it won't happen in their lifetime.


Good points, the conversion was actually started in the 70’s (we first saw it on road signs and mile markers in California), but it was abandoned/killed in the early 80’s. I think your point though that engineers and scientists have been using it for some time is the key for any possible future conversion, science will often lead the way. 

It also shows how an industry (scientists in this case) can make a change in the way they work, without causing grief to the country as a whole. It would be possible for other industries to change with little discomfort, for instance I’m looking at 80+” UHD TV’s to sit on my Credenza when it’s finished, there are very few specifications that use imperial/metric. I would happily look for 208cm units (now that’s big!), I’m really more interested in whether it has HDMI 2.0b, or 1000NITS, or WCG/HDR — none of these are affected by what unit of measure they use, they’re industry standards. Cell phones might be another example, I think it’s great the new iPhone X screen is 5.85”, but think it’s just as great to be 14.86 cm or even 148.6 mm. I’ve used two similar examples but there are different industries who could switch to metric and not cause tremendous grief for their customers or cost to themselves. Apple could probably switch as a company, but their employees might need some retraining (nothing insurmountable in a complex tech industry). 

It could be done over time industry by industry, some would be relatively easy, others very difficult, some might seem impossible, but each step would make the next a little easier. I think some industries will continue to make these kinds of changes because they participate in the world market (if they haven’t already). Maybe these points have already been made, there’s some low hanging fruit that could lead the way, but we’d all need to be open to a little change.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Very true Bruce. It's in many cases just a matter of stating the specs in metric. The real cost is changing the readouts on scales and meters.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Whilst not changing officially, America is changing slowly but surely. When I first became a member of this forum metric was never mentioned but now even tools are now available in metric.


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## Kitwn (Oct 14, 2017)

It's in the kitchen among the recipe books where I find the differences between nations measurements most frustrating. A 'tablespoon' is not equal to a 'tablespoon', a 'quart' is not the same as a 'quart' and a 'cup' of rice in Queensland is not a 'cup' of rice in Georgia.

Fortunately a 'bottle' of wine to go with the results of my efforts is always a 'bottle'. But then it's the quality not the quantity that matters anyway!


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

It looks like America was partly metric a long time ago!


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## AudioHTIT (Jul 26, 2017)

harrysin said:


> It looks like America was partly metric a long time ago!


It shows some things come so naturally we don’t even think about them, once again, science.


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

This would have to be one of the longest running threads on the forum,....

Keep up the good work, Harry.

Was watching a’cops’ show on tv the other day and the cops were recording the amount of drugs found in grams,,,,not ounces....

Is it only OLD mechanics and woodworkers that still use non-metric measurements......&#55357;&#56876;&#55357;&#56876;&#55357;&#56876;&#55357;&#56876;


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

jw2170 said:


> This would have to be one of the longest running threads on the forum,....
> 
> Keep up the good work, Harry.
> 
> ...



Now James, you know that isn't quite true. Metric is still foreign to the masses here in the U.S.

I know that what I'm about to say is rather rediculeous but this thread got me to thinking if ther is such a thing a a set of metric measurments for time. 

Do you that use metic still say that there are 365 days in a year, and 60 minutes in and hour, etc, of course you do, but I did sort of wonder about it.

I do agree with Harry that the Emperial system is, I will say weird compared to metric, but of course we comfortable with we are taught and live with.

Just doing my part to keep the thread going.



Jerry


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## jj777746 (Jan 17, 2015)

harrysin said:


> Whilst not changing officially, America is changing slowly but surely. When I first became a member of this forum metric was never mentioned but now even tools are now available in metric.


And dollars & cents have been in place for quite a while in The 'States & Canada


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Math has not always been to base 10. It was likely base 4 or 5 at some ancient time because you could point to the digits on one hand with the other. It also may have been 20 at one point since that's how many digits we have total. It's rumoured that the ancient Sumerian's math system may have been base 60 and that is where we get the value for an hour and also the 6 segments that make up a circle. 

In the same book I read that in it discussed a crude experiment involving a crow. A farmer noticed the crow hanging around at a distance and went in his farmhouse. The crow stayed put until the farmer came out of the farmhouse and moved away. Once he was a safe distance away the crow flew close to the farmhouse looking for food. A friend came over a few days later and both went in the house but left at different intervals. The crow waited until both were gone to fly closer so the crow could count to two. The farmer stated experimenting and found the crow could count to 3 and 4. But when a fifth person came in the crow still flew closer after the fourth person came out. The crow couldn't count past 4. Early man was similar. His ability to count was based on what he could relate the numbers to. This came from a book on phi and I found it quite interesting.


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## AudioHTIT (Jul 26, 2017)

Jerry Bowen said:


> ...
> I know that what I'm about to say is rather rediculeous but this thread got me to thinking if ther is such a thing a a set of metric measurments for time.
> 
> Do you that use metic still say that there are 365 days in a year, and 60 minutes in and hour, etc, of course you do, but I did sort of wonder about it.
> ...


Time is already ‘metric’, or rather is based on a scientific measurement, the rotation/revolution of the earth and sun. Like the meter was based on the circumference of the earth (but now is based on the speed of light), time has a repeatable way for others to measure it and doesn’t require a bar stored somewhere as a reference. 

Though if you mean that the movement of the earth and sun will change over time, and that we should have a time system based on the speed of light as well (like some fraction of a light year), that might make sence ... but if we’re having trouble with meters ???

Now everyone knows within a couple hundred years we’ll be using Stardates, so maybe by then we’ll be ready for change. :smile:


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

AudioHTIT said:


> Time is already ‘metric’, or rather is based on a scientific measurement, the rotation/revolution of the earth and sun. Like the meter was based on the circumference of the earth (but now is based on the speed of light), time has a repeatable way for others to measure it and doesn’t require a bar stored somewhere as a reference.
> 
> Though if you mean that the movement of the earth and sun will change over time, and that we should have a time system based on the speed of light as well (like some fraction of a light year), that might make sence ... but if we’re having trouble with meters ???
> 
> Now everyone knows within a couple hundred years we’ll be using Stardates, so maybe by then we’ll be ready for change. :smile:


Bruce
Can't keep from asking if the issue of time running at different speeds at different elevations is workied into all of what you re suggesting. It's a very interesting subject, should say, interesting to me anyway. I suspect that time runs at different rates through out the universe.

Thanks for the post, very interesting,

Jerry


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

The difference in time from the bottom of a mountain to the top would be the extreme low end of minuscule. That part of Einstein's theory only became provable with the invention of the atomic clock. The proof happened in the 50s I believe when they flew one around the world and left the other one at the starting point. And keep in mind that time dilation is only apparent between people moving AT&T greatly different velocities, as in zero compared to about 80% light speed. But you're right, it is different in some parts of the universe compared to us.


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## AudioHTIT (Jul 26, 2017)

Jerry Bowen said:


> Bruce
> Can't keep from asking if the issue of time running at different speeds at different elevations is workied into all of what you re suggesting. It's a very interesting subject, should say, interesting to me anyway. I suspect that time runs at different rates through out the universe.
> 
> Thanks for the post, very interesting,
> ...


I’m not really suggesting anything, and haven’t thought much about it. I don’t know that we really need anything more accurate, though scientists probably always will. Having something based on a constant like the speed of light might be helpful when we colonize other planets. Terms like ‘day’, ‘week’, ‘month’, ‘tomorrow’, would either be arbitrary or defined differently; we could probably still use seconds, minutes and hours, but something more ‘universal’ might be preferable.


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

The real interesting thing about "Time", is that it is an accepted construct. What is the whole concept is bogus?


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## Kitwn (Oct 14, 2017)

I'm reminded of a quote from 'The Hitchhikers Guide To The Galaxy' by Douglas Adams...

Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so.

Kit


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## GTVi (May 14, 2010)

https://www.stuffyoushouldknow.com/podcasts/why-isnt-the-u-s-on-the-metric-system.htm

Interesting to listen to the above podcast.


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