# I am so lost



## Xels (Mar 26, 2020)

So I have been looking into buying a cnc for sometime now. I have a background as a machinist so using cnc machines isn’t something new to me but purchasing one is. I have been looking recently at the Probotix, Avid and a Shapeoko. I know after reading several posts a lot of people aren’t fond of the Shapeoko and several people have given high praise to both Probotix and Avid. I don’t plan on making anything complex so I thought something more simple would be a better option. Signs, plaques, maybe some inlay work, are what I’m looking into as a steady go to. It will be slightly more then a hobby machine but not at the beginning. I’m slowly trying to build up a business for myself. So can anyone help out with some thoughts? 

Also when looking at the Avid machines I’m lost as to what I actually need to buy. Are they good as far as providing additional information?

Thanks everyone!


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## OCEdesigns (Jan 31, 2019)

As I'm sure you have noticed there are an infinite number of options. It really depends on your budget and what your end goals really are. I have the Shark HD4 with extended bed and water cooled Spindle from Nextwave. I do all kinds of stuff with wood, plastic, aluminum and even records. I use V-Carve Pro. I'm starting to mess with Fusion 360 so I can do my own 3D designs.


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## difalkner (Jan 3, 2012)

Welcome to the forum! Add your first name to your profile so we'll know what to call you and to clear the N/a in the side panel. Add your location, as well.

I hear nothing but good things about Avid. I went a different route and built my own starting with a frame from Fine Line Automation but I would be happy with an Avid machine.

Couple of questions - 1) how big do you want the machine to be, or what's your available space? 2) what power do you have available, specifically 240 single phase? 3) are you wanting to build or source components and wiring or are you looking for essentially plug and play? 4) will this be in a commercial shop or your home shop (I know you said starting out as a hobby)? 

David


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## Xels (Mar 26, 2020)

difalkner said:


> Welcome to the forum! Add your first name to your profile so we'll know what to call you and to clear the N/a in the side panel. Add your location, as well.
> 
> I hear nothing but good things about Avid. I went a different route and built my own starting with a frame from Fine Line Automation but I would be happy with an Avid machine.
> 
> ...


Currently I am limited on space. I have space for a machine wit a foot print ~4’X4’. I have 220 wired already as well as 110. I would prefer single phase just because three phase is an additional pitb. I don’t really have a preference in terms of prebuilt or plug and play or even a kit. Honestly I am more interested in quality than brand name or popularity. If something happens to be popular and is a good machine I’ll go that route rather then some flashy machine that has endless bells and whistles but just looks pretty and isn’t really functional. This will be in a home shop environment for the time being. I hope this is helpful. Thanks for all the help!


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## difalkner (Jan 3, 2012)

Most machines use 240v single phase to power the VFD if you're getting a spindle. The VFD creates 3 phase for the spindle. If you're going with a router then 120v is all you'll need. A footprint of 4x4 is fairly small, unless you're saying you have a footprint available for a 4x4 machine. Our 2x4 machine has a footprint of about 56" x 72" but that doesn't account for space around the machine to do work. Granted, it's larger than many other 2x4 machines but that gives you an idea.

David


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

I have both -- a Probotix and an Avid Pro. The Probotix uses lead screws and that limits the speed. But it comes with everything you need to start making dust with only having to hook up the limit switches. It's a true plug and play set up including a computer and monitor with Linux loaded. I consider it a serious hobby machine. It paid for itself over 2 years of learning. It also let me get acquainted with the CNC world and whether I wanted to continue in it.

Then I got an Avid CNC Pro4848 complete kit. Granted, I had to assemble (I like to use the word build) it. But it worked. This is a rack and pinion machine and carves 4+ times faster than the Probotix. It's a nice set up and can make a lot of chips and dust. You have to provide the computer and can buy Mach 4 (mine was Mach 3) from them.

I use Vectric Aspire and can make files for both machines using it. I run both machines and throw a lot of chips out. I have an air cooled spindle on both. The difference is probably about $4k between a Probotix Nebula and the 4848Pro model. They both have support and are USA based. Avid is a bigger company than Probotix. What fits your situation and budget.


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## Xels (Mar 26, 2020)

difalkner said:


> Most machines use 240v single phase to power the VFD if you're getting a spindle. The VFD creates 3 phase for the spindle. If you're going with a router then 120v is all you'll need. A footprint of 4x4 is fairly small, unless you're saying you have a footprint available for a 4x4 machine. Our 2x4 machine has a footprint of about 56" x 72" but that doesn't account for space around the machine to do work. Granted, it's larger than many other 2x4 machines but that gives you an idea.
> 
> David


If I need to I can rearrange my workspace to accommodate a larger overall machine footprint but as it is now 4’X4’ is that space I have available total.


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## MoHawk (Dec 8, 2013)

I've owned my Avid 4824 Pro for 4 years this month. Avid's kits are extremely well engineered, made with high quality parts, easy to assemble and they have great customer support. I bought the kit minus the spindle, vfd and related wiring. I added a 2.2kW water cooled spindle and Hitachi VFD. I built the base from 80-20 alum extrusion, more mass is better. The base has 4" heavy duty caster with screw out legs to raise the machine off the casters for extra rigidity.
It measures 5' 4" wide by 45" deep. The base is actually smaller but those dimensions are for stepper motors and other equipment on the ends. The only change I would make if building again; I would buy their air cooled spindle and controls which is simpler to install, get running and maintain. Other than 2 minor problems I created myself which Avid quickly corrected over the phone, it has run flawlessly for 4 years. After working for 42 years, my machine is strictly for hobby use, I don't need a job. I've machined wood, aluminum, soap stone, acrylic and diamond drag bit on glass.

The cnc has a dust collection shoe which was installed after this picture.


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## old55 (Aug 11, 2013)

Welcome to the forum.


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## ger21 (Feb 10, 2019)

> I have been looking recently at the Probotix, Avid and a Shapeoko.


There's a HUGE difference between these machines, as none are even in the same class.

If you can afford it, an AVID Pro series machine is the way to go.

Imo, the Probotix is way too slow for what it costs. They probably limit the speed due to the lightweight gantry.

The ShapeOKO is an entry level hobby machine.


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## Xels (Mar 26, 2020)

Firstly I want to thank you all for the input. It looks like I might go with the avid. Still looking to see if there are any other options out there but that’s my top choice as of now. My next question is do only their spindles work in their machines or has anyone had kuck using a third party spindle? I only ask because I may have access to one for a fraction of the price.

Thanks again!!


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## difalkner (Jan 3, 2012)

You can use third party spindles. Just make sure the specs are the same. 

Btw, we still don't know your name so please go to your profile and add your first name and location. Use Account Settings in the top right of this page, then Edit Your Details.

David


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## HDVideo (Mar 8, 2018)

It's been said that you should buy your second machine first (if possible). Between Probotix and Avid, and if the difference in price is no problem, definitely go with Avid. 

(Full disclosure, I own a Probotix Asteroid) 

Ed


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## difalkner (Jan 3, 2012)

What size spindle are you wanting to start with, Jay? 2.2kW is a very common size and should serve you well. Look at the collet size and make sure it's ER20 so you can use 1/2" shank bits.

David


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## Xels (Mar 26, 2020)

I would like to go with a 2.2kw. The one I was looking at is a 1.5kw but looking at all the information online it seems a 2.2kw is the best way to go. I’m not opposed to getting a different size just so long as it’ll meet my needs/wants. I have seen some people say they built their machines with as much as a 4.4kw which I would think it complete overkill but hey if the price is right &#55357;&#56833;. I’m just finding it hard to sort through all the information. Does anyone have a favorite third party spindle/VFD that they use?


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## difalkner (Jan 3, 2012)

I doubt you'll need a 4.4kW spindle and I also doubt the gantry on the machines you mentioned can handle the weight of one that large. I put a Chinese 3.0kW water cooled spindle (eBay purchase) on ours when I built it about 3 years ago and now have a bearing going out so I am replacing it with a 3.2kW spindle (from Automation Technologies). The current spindle weighs a little over 18 lbs. and the new one weighs just under 22 lbs. 

The VFD I used is the Hitachi WJ200-022SF and it's been a very good VFD. A lot of people have used the Chinese VFD and spindle packages with great success but I chose to buy the Hitachi because it's a better unit, less electrical noise, and I can call Drives Warehouse in Dallas and talk to very knowledgeable folks about the VFD and its setup.

David


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## Xels (Mar 26, 2020)

difalkner said:


> I doubt you'll need a 4.4kW spindle and I also doubt the gantry on the machines you mentioned can handle the weight of one that large. I put a Chinese 3.0kW water cooled spindle (eBay purchase) on ours when I built it about 3 years ago and now have a bearing going out so I am replacing it with a 3.2kW spindle (from Automation Technologies). The current spindle weighs a little over 18 lbs. and the new one weighs just under 22 lbs.
> 
> The VFD I used is the Hitachi WJ200-022SF and it's been a very good VFD. A lot of people have used the Chinese VFD and spindle packages with great success but I chose to buy the Hitachi because it's a better unit, less electrical noise, and I can call Drives Warehouse in Dallas and talk to very knowledgeable folks about the VFD and its setup.
> 
> David


How difficult was it to setup the spindle and vfd along with the machine? Did you have to run wires disassemble anything? Or is it relatively straight forward?


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

Granted the spindle from Avid is on the expensive side, it's my opinion that it is of a much better quality than the cheaper ones like you can get from Auto Tech. I've went thru two of them on the Probotix so far. Plus it's just a matter of plugging wires into the right ports. Avid has great instructions. Do you want to be a driver or mechanic? Of course, somebody like Gerry or David is a lot smarter than this old retired trucker. And we need some of those types to keep us "normal" people straight. lol


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## difalkner (Jan 3, 2012)

Xels said:


> How difficult was it to setup the spindle and vfd along with the machine? Did you have to run wires disassemble anything? Or is it relatively straight forward?


The setup on the VFD is a bit involved but that's the sweet part of buying the Hitachi - I called Drives Warehouse to verify my settings and it turned out I missed something. I got it running but they got it running more efficiently for me. 

The spindle is fairly straight forward - 3 phase so three hot with one ground. If rotation is incorrect switch any two hot wires.

Like John said, getting the 'ready-to-use' version from Avid is a good choice but that wasn't in my budget and I knew I could do the setup, even though I missed a step.

David


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## Rusty Nesmith (Feb 1, 2020)

All VFD’s are not created equal. I have programmed a lot of Allen Bradley VFD’s and they are fairly easy with the book that comes with it. The other brand drives I have had to set up we’re not as easy. I would recommend buying one with good online and phone support.


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## MEBCWD (Jan 14, 2012)

Jay welcome to the Router Forums.

If you can afford it go with the Avid.

1. You will be assembling it yourself and they provide great documentation to put it together. This way you are familiar with all the components and troubleshooting mechanical problems should be easier.
2. If you are willing to source the electronic parts and assembling the control box then you will save some money and be familiar with the electronics. If you don't know anything about electronics then go with the plug and play kit, it comes with great customer support and they take care of problems quickly.
3. Their spindle is a high-quality spindle but that does come with a price but all you have to do is plug it in and go. If you want to go with a different spindle you will have to wire it and the VFD so it will work automatically with the system. You don't have to wire it into the system where it is automatic but you will have to remember to turn it on and set the speed each time before you start cutting.
4. Their leg kit is not necessary but if you are trying to save money remember you will have to provide and materials and hardware to build one. Their leg kit is sturdy and is adjustable to unlevel floors, it also has the mounting location for the electronics. If you build a stand you have to make sure it is well braced and adjust to an unlevel floor because movement in the stand can cause problems with the operation of the CNC. It might be cheaper and faster to go with their kit.

I'll leave you with one last thought ... If you buy a cheap CNC to learn on you will probably be learning software for design and machine control that is limiting and the better quality machines use software that won't limit the operation of your machine.


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## Xels (Mar 26, 2020)

MEBCWD said:


> Jay welcome to the Router Forums.
> 
> If you can afford it go with the Avid.
> 
> ...


Yeah I think I am going to go with all Avid. Machine kit and spindle/VFD. I’ll just have to save up a little longer to afford it all. As for everything else the unit will be on a level work bench. I have cement floors and built my work bench’s you be level and adjustable. I also have a background in CNC machining so Using cam/cam software won’t be new. Thanks for the input!


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## BalloonEngineer (Mar 27, 2009)

*Another option is to build your own!*



Xels said:


> Firstly I want to thank you all for the input. It looks like I might go with the avid. Still looking to see if there are any other options out there but that’s my top choice as of now. My next question is do only their spindles work in their machines or has anyone had kuck using a third party spindle? I only ask because I may have access to one for a fraction of the price.
> 
> Thanks again!!


The only other option to get a similar quality machine is to build your own. You can save substantial amounts. My machine is very similar to an Avid 4x4 at maybe 1/3 the price (I spent $2800 including the dedicated computer and CNC control software). 49” x 60” cut, 2.2kw (3hp) spindle, running Mach4. I have been using an inexpensive Chinese spindle and VFD with absolutely no issues for 4 years now, was only $250 for both (Huanyang, very popular and common). The spindle is under complete g-code control, start/stop/speed. I have tested to 1000ipm speeds, but have rapids set to 600, cut at 200-300 ipm (but mostly use smaller bits, so have not really pushed speeds).


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## ger21 (Feb 10, 2019)

> How difficult was it to setup the spindle and vfd along with the machine? Did you have to run wires disassemble anything? Or is it relatively straight forward?


You'll need to add a box for the VFD, and wire it into the AVID control box, as well as run a shielded cable to the spindle. Then you have to configure the VFD for the spindle. A lot of people set their VFD's up incorrectly and burn up the spindle, or VFD, or both. But it's not THAT difficult.

While the AVID spindle is definitely higher quality, you can by 5 chinese spindles and 3 Huanyang VFD's for less than the AVID plug and play kit.


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

I'm jealous of you smart knowledgeable nerds!!


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## wyzarddoc (Dec 31, 2006)

As a former machinist you should be ok building your own. I would suggest more research on the internet and find a design you like. I am building machine #2 using ball-screws, linear bearings and 80/20 aluminum. I would suggest a 4X4 machine since you will be able to do a 4X8 sheet of foam or ply. Speed on your first machine is not important unless your in a production environment and these smaller machines are not made for production or heavy chip loads. Electronics are not that difficult again more research on the net. I would suggest Vcarve pro, Mach 3/4 and a ESS smooth stepper. The rest is point to point wiring.


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## kcortese12 (Nov 12, 2019)

Check out bobs E4 CNC. their CNCs are good for the hobbyist and won’t break the bank. 

I purchased one for making signs and other home decor items.


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## Rusty Nesmith (Feb 1, 2020)

Just throwing this out there. I don’t know him and have no experience with his product. How are the Dave Gatton kits. I have seen them on YouTube. They don’t look bad and look to have a decent price.


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## maddog (Feb 28, 2010)

You might also check out the Axiom line of CNCs. The Pro8 V5 is a 2 x 4 with a 2.2kw water cooled spindle, ER20 collett. Or, you can check out the Elite Series that comes all assembled, ready to cut and it's a 4 x 4.

No one has asked, what's your budget as that will help you determine your machine. As said earlier you can get a lot more machine for the money if you build your own.


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## Xels (Mar 26, 2020)

wyzarddoc said:


> As a former machinist you should be ok building your own. I would suggest more research on the internet and find a design you like. I am building machine #2 using ball-screws, linear bearings and 80/20 aluminum. I would suggest a 4X4 machine since you will be able to do a 4X8 sheet of foam or ply. Speed on your first machine is not important unless your in a production environment and these smaller machines are not made for production or heavy chip loads. Electronics are not that difficult again more research on the net. I would suggest Vcarve pro, Mach 3/4 and a ESS smooth stepper. The rest is point to point wiring.


I’ve looked into building my own, I even sat day on day and sketched out what I would like it to look like, but when I started looking into what to build it from and the electrical and the software I just got overwhelmed and decided that I’d be better off buying one with everything included, working with that for a while then building my own.


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