# Radial arm router/saw



## Al Robins (Jul 13, 2009)

Under severe pressure from another forumite who will be un named, but who resides in Rockingham Western Australia, I give to you for comment my radial arm saw/router! The guard has been removed for photographic purposes. Regards.......AL.....ps photos following ...finger trouble


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## Al Robins (Jul 13, 2009)

*Photos as promised*

Here are the photos as promised.


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## gav (Oct 12, 2009)

Is that a saw on one end and a router on the other ? I couldn't quite tell.
If so, was it a modification or did it come that way ?


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## Al Robins (Jul 13, 2009)

Yes Gavin, thats the way it was manufactured. I can rotate the head 180 degrees in both directions.........AL


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Al Robins said:


> Under severe pressure from another forumite who will be un named, but who resides in Rockingham Western Australia, I give to you for comment my radial arm saw/router! The guard has been removed for photographic purposes. Regards.......AL.....ps photos following ...finger trouble


Hi Al:

You have to watch out for these guys in Rockingham Western Australia. You never know what they're going to get you involved in next 

You'll find that the 3600 rpm of that motor not enough for routing. It's just too slow. However, Sears in Canada used to sell a molding head that would fit on that saw. I never tried it, it seemed just too scary for me.

Yours looks in pretty good shape. Is the blade on backwards for a reason?


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## Knothead47 (Feb 10, 2010)

I think the term downunder is "Fair dinkum."


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Al Robins said:


> Under severe pressure from another forumite who will be un named, but who resides in Rockingham Western Australia, I give to you for comment my radial arm saw/router! The guard has been removed for photographic purposes. Regards.......AL.....ps photos following ...finger trouble


I must confess Al. that when I found out that you had a radial arm saw for over 20 years and at least the last couple hidden under junk in a corner, I was astounded because I have often mentioned on this forum that the radial arm saw is a tool that all woodworkers should aim for, it is so versatile that one's imagination is the limiting factor for what it can do. Now, as for routing with it, I've never considered that because of the low speed, do let us know what sort of job it does in router mode. If, and I doubt it, the performance is satisfactory, then it may well be worth my while to make a riser for mine (which is the same as Bj's) because as you can see in this shot, it doesn't wind high enough, another 2" or 3" would be required.
I'm sure that if Ron hadn't noticed the blade on the wrong way, Bj certainly would when he wakes up!


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## Cochese (Jan 12, 2010)

That's scary looking. I'd never be allowed to have that.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Knothead47 said:


> I think the term downunder is "Fair dinkum."


I'm pleased to see John that our American friends are learning to speak propper English!


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Al

I hope you don't use your RAS the way you have it setup, by the way it's time to use the blade you have in place for a clock..or a boat anchor 
I will say that the motor will not spin the router bit at the right speed..and it's bit low on HP..

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## Al Robins (Jul 13, 2009)

...just to clarify a couple of things........I only put the blade on for the photo(quickly) as it usually resides in a cupboard, I have routed with it, small pieces of beading, and was very successful. However, I have never tried anything larger. Any further ideas and comments would be appreciated, Regards........AL


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## RustyW (Dec 28, 2005)

I used to have a radial saw just like this one pictured. It's an old Wards Powr-Kraft that was given to me before I was really into woodworking. I never used it and ended up giving away to someone else. The two red caps you can see on the right side of the motor are covering two threaded shafts. The one inline with the arbor spins at 3450 rpm. The other is geared to spin 20,000 rpm, and came with a 1/4" router collet. I kinda wish I still had it, and I see them on craislist now and then, but I just don't have the room.


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## Al Robins (Jul 13, 2009)

After a bit of research I've come up with the following. 11amps.....2? HP motor....saw....5000rpm router 18500rpm.........AL


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## eccentrictinkerer (Dec 24, 2007)

FWIW, all of the Ryobi RAS's had the router feature. I tried it on mine and was not impressed. The gear case and motor noise is horrendous.

The US-sold RA-200 and RA-202 saws have all been recalled due to rare but dangerous failure of the saw bearing housing. Ryobi will send you $75 for the motor assembly and they pay the freight.

I really like my RS-202 because it's compact and I can throw it in my minivan for on-site work. (I actually have three, but don't tell OSHA.)

If they want to take my RA-202, they'll have to pry it from my cold, dead hands. 

BTW the motor sort of looks like the motor on a BT-3000 table saw. I've read that the BT-3x00 motors were actually based on the Ryobi router motor.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

As I mentioned to Al. this morning, I hadn't realised that it was a two speed unit, having never come across one before. From the 11amps quoted and our 240 volts, that would be a 3.5HP motor, tons of power for sawing and routing, providing the housing doesn't EXPLODE!


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## Al Robins (Jul 13, 2009)

Thanks for the information. Ive had this unit for 20 plus years without problems? On a more positive note it would appear that it would give pin routing a whole new meaning.Example....if working a mirror base, Put the template on the bottom with a dowel the same height/ thickness as the template,straight router bit the same diameter as the dowel..say..1/4to1/4 and then work from the top....exact reversal of the pin router......am I on the money or away with the fairies?...........Regards...AL


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Al Robins said:


> Thanks for the information. Ive had this unit for 20 plus years without problems? On a more positive note it would appear that it would give pin routing a whole new meaning.Example....if working a mirror base, Put the template on the bottom with a dowel the same height/ thickness as the template,straight router bit the same diameter as the dowel..say..1/4to1/4 and then work from the top....exact reversal of the pin router......am I on the money or away with the fairies?...........Regards...AL


Hi Al:

I call this a gantry router to differentiate it from the Radial Arm Mill Router (RAMer) produced by Ten Fingers Corp or the Overarm Router produced by either General or Woodstock. As for the inverted pin router, I don't go to all that work, I use a guide pin and a bearing bit in a router table.


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## Al Robins (Jul 13, 2009)

Thanks Ron...I will give your alternative some thought.......Regards...AL


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Pictures Al, we want pictures!


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## eccentrictinkerer (Dec 24, 2007)

Al Robins said:


> Here are the photos as promised.


Just noticed, it appears your saw blade is on bass-ackwards!


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## Al Robins (Jul 13, 2009)

Yea E/tinkerer.....only for the photo....usually unused, stays in cupboard...wait for it Harry.....will try Sunday after church.....AL


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## Lee Brubaker (Jan 30, 2006)

BobJ: Beat me to it but most RAS units motor RPM 3450 which is really too slow for good clean router cuts. You can overcome this & still have the versatility of the RAS by making a bracket & hanging a router on the saw in place of the blade.


Lee


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## Al Robins (Jul 13, 2009)

Lee, thats a good alternative also....keep the ideas coming folks.........AL


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## mbr72cnc (Feb 15, 2010)

I have been considering purchasing or building an overhead router. What are your thoughts on overhead routers?

Thanks in advance for the replies,
Mike


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## osioradain (Feb 16, 2010)

interesting stuff there


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## Al Robins (Jul 13, 2009)

BJ and Harry have their respective views regarding the overhead router, personally FWIW it works well, provided there is no play in the arm at the yoke or the carriage. I tried to convert mine to a pin router in reverse with limited success. It was OK doing circles and ovals with templates, but to rout a square took a fair bit of dexterity not to allow the workpiece to over swing on the pin. I am still working on that and think I will use some scrap on the bench to limit the movement. Hopefully I will post some photos in the future when I've ironed out these problems. Regards......AL


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

I realise Al that once the farming season is over you have time on your hands, why else would you be spending time re-inventing the wheel. There are other proven, fully repeatable methods of achieving what you're after.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Al

You maybe are asking for more than it can do , 
Most pin routers, the head does not swing around it's locked at one point and the stock is moved around on a pin...

It's true you can move the head in and out for slots,etc. but once you unlock the carriage it's free floating so to speak but will not do a good job..


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Al Robins said:


> BJ and Harry have their respective views regarding the overhead router, personally FWIW it works well, provided there is no play in the arm at the yoke or the carriage. I tried to convert mine to a pin router in reverse with limited success. It was OK doing circles and ovals with templates, but to rout a square took a fair bit of dexterity not to allow the workpiece to over swing on the pin. I am still working on that and think I will use some scrap on the bench to limit the movement. Hopefully I will post some photos in the future when I've ironed out these problems. Regards......AL


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## timbertailor (Oct 4, 2009)

I know this is a router forum but yall started it.

I want to see some pictures of the oldest Radial Arm Saw.

I like the old ones. I went to buy a new one because the bearing are wasted. I found out Sears still carries the bearings. US$70 installed and it should be good as new.

They just don't make them like they used to.

I think this one is around 40+ years!!!

P.S. I agree with Harry. A RAS is one of the first power tools for the workshop my dad owned and I learned how to do just about anything with it. Not as safe as a TS but VERY versatile. I still use it a lot for cross cutting. It is easier to repeat and I can cut some very long boards to manageable size with it quickly.


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## Al Robins (Jul 13, 2009)

These photos show what I was attempting...........


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## Al Robins (Jul 13, 2009)

Should have mentioned...the workpiece is secured by double sided tape...


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## timbertailor (Oct 4, 2009)

Al Robins said:


> These photos show what I was attempting...........




I think you would be better served using a template. It may take you longer to set up but I think you will get better results in the end.

I love radial arm saws!!!


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## Al Robins (Jul 13, 2009)

Brad, in the first photo that is the square template with a 3/8 dowel in the workbench, the same height as the template, The workpiece is stuck to the template with double sided tape...drill a 3/4 inch hole with a forstener bit about 1/4 inch deep and then lower the router to that level, then move the template/workpiece around by hand until you have the square....lower the router and repeat the process to what ever depth you require...............Regards...AL


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Al

I can't wait until you discover the ski jig, it will do that job in a heart beat.

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Al Robins said:


> Brad, in the first photo that is the square template with a 3/8 dowel in the workbench, the same height as the template, The workpiece is stuck to the template with double sided tape...drill a 3/4 inch hole with a forstener bit about 1/4 inch deep and then lower the router to that level, then move the template/workpiece around by hand until you have the square....lower the router and repeat the process to what ever depth you require...............Regards...AL


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## Al Robins (Jul 13, 2009)

I agree BJ...it was just a little exersize to see if it could be done.....and good for circles and arcs....same deal...cut out template and away ya go...waiting to get the 1/2 inch rods for the skis and its all go......Regards AL


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Al

With the ski jig no templates needed 

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## Al Robins (Jul 13, 2009)

BJ, I reckon we are getting off topic, but the pattern you have made for the hold down cams, is that peg board or did you drill to suit? Regards.........AL


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Al

"drill to suit?" 
I didn't take pictures but Bob N. did

http://www.routerforums.com/jigs-fixtures/13311-bobj3-mr-jigs.html

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Al Robins said:


> BJ, I reckon we are getting off topic, but the pattern you have made for the hold down cams, is that peg board or did you drill to suit? Regards.........AL


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Al Robins said:


> These photos show what I was attempting...........


Allen, some people get their pleasure from making jigs and templates, others from making "things" but you my friend are obviously getting your pleasure from re-inventing the wheel. If you want to achieve perfect results for what you're after, you only have to troll through the galleries of Bj, myself and many other members.


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## Al Robins (Jul 13, 2009)

Yes Harry, I agree, but occasionally its good to push your own boundaries to see what the addled brain can come up with.....Regards.....Al


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## kolias (Dec 26, 2008)

I always loved these saws, very versatile


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## istracpsboss (Sep 14, 2008)

bobj3 said:


> Hi Al
> 
> With the ski jig no templates needed
> 
> =======


Hi Bob

Was there a reason why you both made the board with the pronged t-nuts rather than using threaded inserts? I've still got to make my board and it struck me that not having to counterbore for the t-nuts would make life a lot simpler.

Cheers

Peter


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Peter

Yes it would be simpler but they just don't hold very well in MDF or plywood, the insert type will not take the in and out of the screw, the tee nuts can't come out plus they don't lift the stock up and put that little bump on the stock it's true you can sand it off the stock but I have tried them and they just don't work well for this job..plus if you strip one out you can just tap a new one in and you will strip one out now and then.
I use 10-24 and at .05 cents that's cheap unlike the threaded ones,at a total of about 100 of them that can run up the cost real quick..

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istracpsboss said:


> Hi Bob
> 
> Was there a reason why you both made the board with the pronged t-nuts rather than using threaded inserts? I've still got to make my board and it struck me that not having to counterbore for the t-nuts would make life a lot simpler.
> 
> ...


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## Lee Brubaker (Jan 30, 2006)

Well Harry....20 year ownership of a RAS is just getting started. I have had mine for 52 years...made by American Machine & Foundry BEFORE Black & Decker bought the DeWalt tool line from them. Yup... there is a fixture on the motor armature opposite the blade end for routing with 1/4" shank bits. However, I agree with Bobj3 that motor speed is too slow (3450 rpm) for nice resuts. Soooo I made bracket to fit the blade end of the motor & hang a 1hp router on the saw. Also made a tilting table that clamps in place of the fence which allows weird & wonderful cuts with the router. Also my lathe does not have outboard turning so I can machine large discs using the router/RAS combination.
Great for making router plate inserts for the router table that is a little off-center so they can be tightened into the table plate using a simple two prong home-made wrench.

Lee


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Hi Lee, I'm sure that I mentioned that I've had RAS's since 1974, but even that makes you the clear winner and I like you set-up. Do you agree with me when I say that all woodworkers should set their sights on a RAS?


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

istracpsboss said:


> Hi Bob
> 
> Was there a reason why you both made the board with the pronged t-nuts rather than using threaded inserts? I've still got to make my board and it struck me that not having to counterbore for the t-nuts would make life a lot simpler.
> 
> ...


Peter, over the years I've used both, but because I now want everything done NOW, I only use the inserts with hex drive as shown because they are so much faster to use. I use glue as I screw in the inserts and I've never had a problem, and I do use these jigs on a regular basis. I wonder if Bj has actually had any come loose.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Harry

The error for me is they don't come loose but they lift the stock up and must be sanded down, I use MDF a lot of the time because it's flat and true and with the screw in type that's gone once I put them in place, I used them once in my router MDF table top and that was a big error on my part..  now I have 4 bumps in the top, I can remove them but I use it to remind not to use them every aging. 


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harrysin said:


> Peter, over the years I've used both, but because I now want everything done NOW, I only use the inserts with hex drive as shown because they are so much faster to use. I use glue as I screw in the inserts and I've never had a problem, and I do use these jigs on a regular basis. I wonder if Bj has actually had any come loose.


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## timbertailor (Oct 4, 2009)

Lee Brubaker said:


> Well Harry....20 year ownership of a RAS is just getting started. I have had mine for 52 years...made by American Machine & Foundry BEFORE Black & Decker bought the DeWalt tool line from them. Yup... there is a fixture on the motor armature opposite the blade end for routing with 1/4" shank bits. However, I agree with Bobj3 that motor speed is too slow (3450 rpm) for nice resuts. Soooo I made bracket to fit the blade end of the motor & hang a 1hp router on the saw. Also made a tilting table that clamps in place of the fence which allows weird & wonderful cuts with the router. Also my lathe does not have outboard turning so I can machine large discs using the router/RAS combination.
> Great for making router plate inserts for the router table that is a little off-center so they can be tightened into the table plate using a simple two prong home-made wrench.
> 
> Lee


So, do you still use it as a RAS or has it transformed into something as described permanently?

That is a classic RAS. Don't think I have ever seen one. Has mine beat by almost a decade and it shows in the amount of metal on the face.


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## Al Robins (Jul 13, 2009)

Harry,where did you obtain the screw in ones, and what size are they....1/4inch? Regards...AL


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## istracpsboss (Sep 14, 2008)

bobj3 said:


> Hi Harry
> 
> The error for me is they don't come loose but they lift the stock up and must be sanded down, I use MDF a lot of the time because it's flat and true and with the screw in type that's gone once I put them in place, I used them once in my router MDF table top and that was a big error on my part..  now I have 4 bumps in the top, I can remove them but I use it to remind not to use them every aging.
> 
> ...


The threaded inserts I'm using have a lip and need countersunk holes, which should take care of the raising issue. What glue do you use, Harry, to make sure they don't move?

I really didn't fancy drilling all those holes then having to centre a forstner bit on all of them for the t-nuts, although I acknowledge their superior holding power. OTOH, I didn't feel they were under a lot of strain for this job.

Cheers

Peter


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Al

You can make your own just drill a counter sunk (pocket ) hole and drive in a nut, little bit of glue and your set, it will hold about the same way... insert from the back side than tap it into place...

Note ***use a brad point drill bit for the pocket holes..it's flat on the bottom and will give you a center spot on the other side to drill it out on dead center of the nut.

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Al Robins said:


> Harry,where did you obtain the screw in ones, and what size are they....1/4inch? Regards...AL


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## Lee Brubaker (Jan 30, 2006)

Timbertailor: I use my RAS as the inventor intended....as a saw. My shop is small & the RAS has a small footprint vs a TS. I have replaced the table on the RAS once & it is starting to get to the point that it should be replaced again. Fortunately it pre-dates the cheapening of the design & it stays in tune with only minor twigging now & then. I have a CMS & stand(retirement gift) that is no more accurate than my RAS & is a darn sight noisier hence it spends it's time folded up & leaning against the wall outta the way.
The bearings in the motor are original & still run quiet. Only complaint I have is that my tools have been aging along with me.LOL.

Lee


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

I was trying to recall when I got my RAS, it was in 1965, that's 45 years ago and still running strong , 3rd table top,it help me make a 4 car garage plus many more items..


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## Lee Brubaker (Jan 30, 2006)

Oooops Bobj3: Your math is off if you bought the saw in 1965 it is 45 years old instead of 55 !


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Lee

hahahahaha Old fingers hahahahaha don't work as good as the RAS..

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Lee Brubaker said:


> Oooops Bobj3: Your math is off if you bought the saw in 1965 it is 45 years old instead of 55 !


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## Al Robins (Jul 13, 2009)

Sorry for the late reply BJ....(away with the fairies again) and yes, thats another way of doing the job. Got the rods threaded at long last, so its all go, Regards.......AL


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Al Robins said:


> Harry,where did you obtain the screw in ones, and what size are they....1/4inch? Regards...AL


Hi Al, the last few lots I got from Bunnings in blister packs, they used to be 1/4" Whitworth but are now 6mm.

If you look closely at the shot of the jig in post 46 you'll see that I countersink the holes.

I normally use Araldite (5 minute two part epoxy)


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## Oxbox (Mar 5, 2010)

Knothead47 said:


> I think the term downunder is "Fair dinkum."


!! Yep, its Fair Dinkum Mate!, 

Where do I get me one of those Guys. . . .I want one!


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## Al Robins (Jul 13, 2009)

Thanks Harry.....as I said I've threaded the rods ...all I have to do is find BJ's post on making the round knobs with a forstener bit......AL


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

http://www.routerforums.com/jigs-fixtures/4464-jig-storage-shop-made-knobs.html

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Al Robins said:


> Thanks Harry.....as I said I've threaded the rods ...all I have to do is find BJ's post on making the round knobs with a forstener bit......AL


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## Al Robins (Jul 13, 2009)

Thanks BJ....problem solved....AL


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## Lee Brubaker (Jan 30, 2006)

Hi Harry:

I have NEVER regretted my purchase of my RAS & as I mentioned previously it has a small footprint making it a ideal saw for the small workshop. Especially when it can do so many more operations than it is possible to do with a table saw. Heck, I even sharpen my lawnmower blade & hoe with a stone mounted instead of the blade. Ditto re my lathe chisles. I like to make wheels for the toys that I build & donate at Xmas. These get mounted on the RAS for face turning. The list is endless of the things that can be done with an RAS.

Lee


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Lee, I've only had radial arm saws since 1974, the first being a rather simple 8" B&D which I replaced with a 10" De-Walt in about 1978. I've mentioned on this very forum on a few occasions that every woodworker should set his/her sights on a RAS, one's imagination seem to be the limiting factor as to what these saws are capable of and you've introduced uses that even I hadn't thought of!


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## Troy T (Mar 9, 2011)

timbertailor, I saw the pic of your Craftsman RAS. I used to have one until the motor burned up. I wish I still had it because I could probably fix it now. But I was young and dumb and didn't think I could get parts for it because it was so old so I got rid of it. Seeing yours almost brought a tear to my eye.


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## timbertailor (Oct 4, 2009)

Troy T said:


> timbertailor, I saw the pic of your Craftsman RAS. I used to have one until the motor burned up. I wish I still had it because I could probably fix it now. But I was young and dumb and didn't think I could get parts for it because it was so old so I got rid of it. Seeing yours almost brought a tear to my eye.


This TS was my fathers, as most of my tools and they too bring tears to my eyes on occassion. I am doing my best to keep them going. The TS still cuts great and works as well as it did the day it was purchased, some 40 years ago!!!

Thanks for taking time to comment.


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## mpbc48 (Sep 17, 2010)

My 30 - 40 year old Craftsman RAS is capable of rotation into that position. It works well with the moulding head attachment, but the number of cutters available is limited.

The moulding attachment is large. Without measuring, I'm guessing at least 7 inches in diameter as the blades spin, so the slower speed isn't a problem. However, flipping it 180 degrees and attaching a chuck or collet to the other end of the spindle is another story.

I tried it with a smaller router bit and the result was my going out and purchasing a router table. There just isn't enough stability in the RAS structure. 

It reinforces the saying; "Just because you can, doesn't mean that you should." 
(At least with the RAS I have.)

Mike


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## anniekirk (Apr 11, 2010)

Brad, I use that saw often in my shop. I have replaced the bearings a couple of times. I still have the sales slip from 1966.


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## timbertailor (Oct 4, 2009)

I need to replace the bearings in mine. They are still listed in the Sears catalog!

It still does a lot of cross cut work on larger lumber for me. I laminated the fence and the table when I shimmed them. A digital angle cube makes 40+ year old equipment like new again. Another tool on the high recommend list.


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## Lee Brubaker (Jan 30, 2006)

I made a bracket allowing me to mount an old Sears 1hp fixed base router that the depth adjustment had crapped out on. The router mounts in place of the saw blade & of course to avoid stupidity I always unplug the saw when using it in this configuration. I also made a base that can be tilted producing decorative cuts not otherwise possible either handheld or with a standard router table. I use this setup when making table bit inserts with off-center rabbits & use a lugged wrench to tighten them in the table insert.
My lathe does not allow outboard turning so I also use the RAS/router setup for machining the wheels when making motorcycle rockers. I also used it for the 24" wheel on the wife's spinning wheel. A good combination that often solves those "head scratching" types of machining problems.

Lee


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## timbertailor (Oct 4, 2009)

Lee Brubaker said:


> I made a bracket allowing me to mount an old Sears 1hp fixed base router that the depth adjustment had crapped out on. The router mounts in place of the saw blade & of course to avoid stupidity I always unplug the saw when using it in this configuration. I also made a base that can be tilted producing decorative cuts not otherwise possible either handheld or with a standard router table. I use this setup when making table bit inserts with off-center rabbits & use a lugged wrench to tighten them in the table insert.
> My lathe does not allow outboard turning so I also use the RAS/router setup for machining the wheels when making motorcycle rockers. I also used it for the 24" wheel on the wife's spinning wheel. A good combination that often solves those "head scratching" types of machining problems.
> 
> Lee


This versatility is probably why the RAS is one of the first large power tool most shops start out with.


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## Lee Brubaker (Jan 30, 2006)

In response to a Private Msg. inquiry Iam posting a pic of my RAS/Router set-up. I used a part of the molding guard that I had plus a phenolic plate to which the home-made router clamp is attached. This in turn utilizes the blade guard motor attachment
which in turn assures that the router bit is square to the work. For those with an RAS different than mine a method of attachment will likely have to be developed but at least my approach may start the thinking juices going for you.

Lee


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