# 220v in a room with no 220v outlets?



## 4DThinker (Feb 16, 2014)

In the CNC room of our new fabrication lab no one thought to install 220vAC outlets for our eventual upgrade to 22v spindles. 

Probotix sells a transformer: PROBOTIX Step Down Transformer.

I'm curious if anyone here uses it, and how well it works?

4D


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## kp91 (Sep 10, 2004)

4D,

We use step up transformers for a variety of equipment, but you have to account for the current draw and heat. Going from 110v to 220v will double your current, and current flowing through a conductor generates heat.

It will work, but you might want to look at options for a 220v circuit in the long run.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Just a thought, but if there was a run of 14/3/1 or 12/3/1 feeding a split receptacle (dedicated ccts), and it could be sacrificed, you could tap into that for your 220V.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

"Going from 110v to 220v will double your current"

Are you sure about this Doug.?


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## mgmine (Jan 16, 2012)

Why not simply run a new 12/2 line or disconnect one going to the room and make it a 220?


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## Knothead47 (Feb 10, 2010)

If you are running 220V, 12 or 14 gauge, IMHO, is too light. Check at Lowe's for a book on electrical work or the local library. Used book stores are a gold mine. I have found some great books at McKay's, if you have one close. I have a book but cant' find it.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

DaninVan said:


> Just a thought, but if there was a run of 14/3/1 or 12/3/1 feeding a split receptacle (dedicated ccts), and it could be sacrificed, you could tap into that for your 220V.


Not necessarily Dan. If that receptacle is wired properly both sides of the plug-in will be on the same leg in the panel. Otherwise you'll have 220 phase coming back on the neutral.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

mgmine said:


> Why not simply run a new 12/2 line or disconnect one going to the room and make it a 220?


That might be the answer Art if there is a dedicated plug with no branching. The wires at the distribution panel could be reconnected to a 220 breaker. The plug-in would then have to be changed to one that only allows 220 volt appliances.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

*Misspoke*



Cherryville Chuck said:


> Not necessarily Dan. If that receptacle is wired properly both sides of the plug-in will be on the same leg in the panel. Otherwise you'll have 220 phase coming back on the neutral.


Sorry, I should have said a _'split receptacle'_...obviously if it was an existing cct., it was originally wired correctly (or as you point out it'd trip the breaker instantly).


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## kp91 (Sep 10, 2004)

harrysin said:


> "Going from 110v to 220v will double your current"f
> 
> Are you sure about this Doug.?


You got me... It was supposed to say that the current on the 110v line will be 2x what the current draw of the load would be on a 220v circuit 

If the spindle would draw 10A on the 220v side, you would see twice that plus transformer loss load on the 110v side.

More proof that long nights and forum posts don't mix!


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## Gundawg (Oct 13, 2017)

If you have a dedicated circuit meaning it does not feed any other load you could convert it to 240V if you have room in the panel for a 2 pole breaker. A licensed electrician might be the way to go here he can tell you in a couple minutes your easiest route. Post some pictures of the panel I might be able to help. You need to know what your load requirement is for the new spindle this will determine the wire size needed the length of the run will also play into the wire size requirement. The breaker is sized to protect the wire the wire is sized for the load. Usually a step down transformer is used when you have a commercial building with 480V service. A transformer can step up voltage or step down voltage it has to do with the turns ratio of the transformer if it has a 2-1 turns ratio and you feed 480v in the primary side you get 240v out the secondary. In your case if you feed 120v in the secondary side you will get 240v out the primary. This would not be ideal there are some losses.

Mike


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

This is why the good Lord gave us licensed electricians. If I were thinking of adding a 220 line, I'd hire an electrician and consult with them before installation so they know exactly what to install. As a callow youth, I rewired the school gym's 440 lines to power theater lighting dimmers for a show there, but now I know I'm mortal and I'd never try that again. Lucky I didn't kill myself back then. For a home shop, I'd be surprised if it cost more than $500 and materials to have a 220 line installed, or less to tap into the the clothes dryer's 220 circuit. But even then, you still have the possibility of burning up your motor.


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## 4DThinker (Feb 16, 2014)

I appreciate all the advice. This is for a state college fabrication lab and our budget has been cut to the point where we are considering laying off temporary hires (critical to our mission) and so. The students pay a technology fee for every hour credit the sign up for but that also has been raided to finish tooling up our brand new fabrication lab. 

So if we can get by without pay for an electrician to come and run new lines this transformer is just one option we are considering. The other option is to keep running routers until the tech budget has a few years to catch up with the spending.


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## MikeMa (Jul 27, 2006)

If it were me, I would run the routers till you can get the electrician in to do it right. I would be concerned the transformer wouldn't be able to provide clean enough power for the spindle, shortening its life considerably.


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## kp91 (Sep 10, 2004)

Use routers, sell projects, use funds to upgrade equipment... 

Sounds like a good business education as well as technical one!


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## Knothead47 (Feb 10, 2010)

Raise money with a fund raiser. Jacks or better to open?


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## Gary Salisbury (Apr 11, 2014)

harrysin said:


> "Going from 110v to 220v will double your current"
> 
> Are you sure about this Doug.?


Don't you mean that the current will be half not double?


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## Gary Salisbury (Apr 11, 2014)

Just my humble opinion but why do half-assed work? Bite the bullet and install a dedicated 220VAC circuit. 

Don't forget to also do "insolated-isolated ground." It will guarantee that no noise comes back into the power line and possibly cause scrambled digital operation. That just means a special isolated ground outlet with the ground going back to the building load center. This should be a basic when installing computer-controlled equipment.


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## artman60 (Nov 22, 2015)

Man, if I only lived closer. I would gladly trade running and wiring your 220 needs for some cnc schooling. Any vocational schools in the area that might donate the work?


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## Gary Salisbury (Apr 11, 2014)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> That might be the answer Art if there is a dedicated plug with no branching. The wires at the distribution panel could be reconnected to a 220 breaker. The plug-in would then have to be changed to one that only allows 220 volt appliances.


Minor point: 

1. The 110VAC line would have to be a 20AMP line (#12 wire) If it is 15AMPS, then the wire would be #14 which is probably too small for a 220VAC line.

2. The 110VAC line has a colored wire for the HOT and a white wire for the NEUTRAL and a green for GROUND. The white NEUTRAL would have to be taped a different color on both ends to be in code. White NEUTRAL wires can NOT be used to run HOT lines. Electrical codes vary from state to state but that is what NEMA says.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Gary Salisbury said:


> Minor point:
> 
> 1. The 110VAC line would have to be a 20AMP line (#12 wire) If it is 15AMPS, then the wire would be #14 which is probably too small for a 220VAC line.
> 
> ...


It is also code here that when you use a white wire as a power wire instead of a neutral that you wrap it with either black or red electrician's tape so that it is readily recognizable that it is not a neutral wire. Most of our code is based on the same authorities as your code, there are only minor differences as a rule, but since most 2 conductor wire (Nomex here, Romex down there) comes as 1 black and 1 white conductor then it has become common practice to re-color the white to indicate the difference from the norm.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

*Heated Argument*



Cherryville Chuck said:


> It is also code here that when you use a white wire as a power wire instead of a neutral that you wrap it with either black or red electrician's tape so that it is readily recognizable that it is not a neutral wire. Most of our code is based on the same authorities as your code, there are only minor differences as a rule, but since most 2 conductor wire (Nomex here, Romex down there) comes as 1 black and 1 white conductor then it has become common practice to re-color the white to indicate the difference from the norm.


Except that 14/2/1 and 12/2/1 is also available in Red/Black/Green specifically for 220V ccts. Normal application would be electric heating, particularly baseboard heaters.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

4DThinker said:


> In the CNC room of our new fabrication lab no one thought to install 220vAC outlets for our eventual upgrade to 22v spindles.
> 
> Probotix sells a transformer: PROBOTIX Step Down Transformer.
> 
> ...


Whether or not that 5Kv transformer would be suitable or not depends on the power rating of the router/s and how many routers are involved. Do not forget that the starting current is much higher than the running current.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

DaninVan said:


> Except that 14/2/1 and 12/2/1 is also available in Red/Black/Green specifically for 220V ccts. Normal application would be electric heating, particularly baseboard heaters.


If I worked as an electrician it would be worth it to me to buy extra rolls of wire like that but I only add on something once in a while now so I only keep 14/2 and 14/3 around and tape the white if I need more 220 since that is acceptable by code. If someone was changing a dedicated circuit from 110 to 220 they would have no choice but to re-colour the white and I've never come across anything in the code that says you can't do that as long as all the requirements are met for that type circuit.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

You're right of course, existing wiring is grandfathered, but I wouldn't count on any given Inspector accepting new wiring being done that way. For a while they were insisting on the whole run having red tape bands applied every 3' or so (can't remember the spacing).
The reasoning being that someone could come along and try to add a plug or light into the cct., being how since it was 14/2/1 it was _'obviously_ 110V'. Not.


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## CharleyL (Feb 28, 2009)

For all of you living in the USA. We don't have 110 or 220 volt power in our homes. This voltage is a leftover from the old Edison Direct Current (DC) systems that were discontinued in favor of our present AC power system. Some of the original Edison power systems were switched over to the AC system and were fed the original 110/220 volt power until everything could be converted to AC power. So in use today in all residential areas is 120 and 240 volts and has been since well before WWII. Industrial customers use this power, because it is very efficient to operate motors and high current requiring machinery from three phase power without doing much more than adjusting the voltage to a lower level. To understand three phase, imagine a circle with three magnets spaced equally around this circle at 0 degrees to each other. If you could turn on one of these magnets at a time and continue in a clockwise direction, a piece of metal in the center of this circle would spin in a clockwise direction as each magnet was turned on in sequence. Three phase power does exactly this. It sequences each AC pulse of power on each of the three power lines 60 degrees of rotation from each other, making 3 phase motors work very efficiently. If you swap the connections of any two of these phases to the motor, the motor will run in the opposite direction.

The home power system here is actually a single (1) phase 240 volt system with a center tap. The two hot wires have 120 volts on them with respect to the center tap and 240 volts between them,The center tap is considered to be Neutral and this Neutral is connected to ground at the location where the electric service enters the building, at the circuit breaker panel or meter box. It should not be connected together at any other point in the home. Even though the Neutral and the Green Ground wire are connected together at this point, there can be a voltage difference between them at distant points in the home wiring because of high current being drawn through the neutral at that point. The longer wiring carrying this high current will have some resistance due to the wire length and electrical connections in it, and this will cause the Neutral wire to have a voltage on it when measured to ground at that distant point. The ground (green) wire is only supposed to carry current when a problem arises that causes the case of a tool to have voltage on it. The green wire will then give a path for this unsafe voltage to ground, shielding the user of the tool from a possible shock. 

Electrical power from the generating stations is commonly distributed as 3 phase power on towers and at the very top of the poles on the major streets of the USA and to industrial locations around the US. This is the most efficient way for the power companies to distribute the power. For residential use, this power is fed through a transformer that is connected to two of these three phases or to one phase and ground. The output of this transformer is only one phase, but is center tapped, making the 240/120 system that we have in our homes. Other nearby housing developments have the same transformer type system, but the transformer will be fed from different phases of the power distribution, in an effort to balance the loads on the power companies generators and distribution system. This is the reason why one neighborhood might have electrical power while one next to it might still have power after a storm takes out one phase of the power company's system, but not another.

Industrial equipment that runs on three phase power will not run correctly if one phase of the power system is lost. In my prior life as an Automation Engineer (EE) I always made it a point to include a 3 phase power monitor in the design of the equipment, to prevent the tool from operating if any phase of the three phase power was lost or went low in voltage. It also prevented the tool from operating if the phase sequence was incorrect, since this would run the involved motors in the wrong direction. 

All of this seems to be so misunderstood that I felt it necessary to post it here. Some of it was probably beyond your need to know, but I've included it anyway.

Charley


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

All of the above is kind of moot, Charley, as the voltage as measured at the plug is what you get to work with. As you know the AC voltage stated is actually the Root Means Squared, and I normally get 117V plus or minus a couple of volts depending on the time of day, ie other major users and/or a lot of people using their kitchen ovens.
BC Hydro anticipates the historic high usage times and adds extra generating capacity on a minute by minute basis; it's actually extremely well managed up here.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Power values are like Imperial lumber sizes, i.e. nominal for the most part. While you are right Charley that it should be 120 volts at the standard outlet, it's pretty rare that I actually see that. 115 to 117 is more the average here.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Here in Western Australia the nominal voltage is 240 +/- 10%


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## MoHawk (Dec 8, 2013)

As a retired electrical engineer, I'm a little puzzled by your post and the many answers. Your post states "220v in a room with no 220v outlets?" If you already have 220 volt service to the room, which will actually be 240v, installing the proper plugin outlets shouldn't be that much of a problem. I don't understand why you would need the stepup/stepdown transformer.


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## 4DThinker (Feb 16, 2014)

What I meant is that we have no 220v outlets in the CNC room. We currently run routers that run on 120v, but want to eventually upgrade to spindles that require 220v. Not having 220v outlets was an oversight by the architecture firm who handled the remodel of the building we just moved back into. 

The transformer that was linked to on the Probotix.com site is recommended by them as a way to transform a 120v input to a 220v output to run their spindles. I was hoping to find anyone who has used one that could verify that it worked. Yes, having dedicated 220v circuits run to the room would be preferred, but hiring an electrician to do that is financially prohibited.


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## Gundawg (Oct 13, 2017)

4DThinker said:


> What I meant is that we have no 220v outlets in the CNC room. We currently run routers that run on 120v, but want to eventually upgrade to spindles that require 220v. Not having 220v outlets was an oversight by the architecture firm who handled the remodel of the building we just moved back into.
> 
> The transformer that was linked to on the Probotix.com site is recommended by them as a way to transform a 120v input to a 220v output to run their spindles. I was hoping to find anyone who has used one that could verify that it worked. Yes, having dedicated 220v circuits run to the room would be preferred, but hiring an electrician to do that is financially prohibited.


This will not work you can not run a motor that requires 240V by boosting the voltage from 120v. You need two phases of 120v 120* apart. I suspect you are actually needing 3 phase 240V but the VFD can make the 3rd phase. By boosting the 120v to 240v through a transformer you will get one leg of 240v and no second phase. A 240V motor runs on 2 legs of 120V 120* apart on the vector.


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## kp91 (Sep 10, 2004)

It will run with stepped up 120v. The motor only needs to see 220v across the leads. 

The problem will be the current. The specs call for a 20A 220v circuit. That would be more than a 115 circuit could handle.

Of course, what the VFD actually pulls, I don't know.


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## Gundawg (Oct 13, 2017)

kp91 said:


> It will run with stepped up 120v. The motor only needs to see 220v across the leads.
> 
> The problem will be the current. The specs call for a 20A 220v circuit. That would be more than a 115 circuit could handle.
> 
> Of course, what the VFD actually pulls, I don't know.


It absolutely will not work you will not produce 3 phases from one in this manner. You could theoretically turn a generator with the single pole motor to create 3 phases but that is not what he wants to do and the losses involved would not make it feasable. You can make 3 phase with 2 phases but not one phase. I am a retired grid operator and journeyman Lineman. You can make the right voltage but you need at least 2 phases.


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## kp91 (Sep 10, 2004)

The specifications for his unit is for a single phase supply.


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## kp91 (Sep 10, 2004)

4D,

If anyone you know who runs the spindle you are looking at can get you an AMP reading while cutting on their machine you can get an idea of what your load will be.

Being that the XMFR is listed as an accessory on their own website I am sure it would work. 

I would hate for the spindle to trip the supply breaker during a cut, which is why I am a little concerned about using a step up transformer.


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