# How would you cut this?



## distrbd (Oct 8, 2009)

I have already asked the following question in a scroll saw forum and the majority of the members who responded thought a scroll saw is the way to go but I thought I might get a different response if I ask the same question in a router forum.

The template in the picture is 1/2" MDF the size is:15"X15",I am planning to use this template to cut six new pieces like it out of soft pine or 1/2" plywood.

The plan is to build a headboard with them by joining them together,inside a 30"X45" frame ,I could either use a scroll saw to cut them or use the piece as a template and cut the six pieces with a combination of jigsaw/router.

I know most of you are practical and only would use a router if it is the best tool to get the job done and not just because you it's the tool you are most comfortable/experienced with. 

I would appreciate your inputs.
Ken.


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## Semipro (Mar 22, 2013)

scroll saw


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## MikeMa (Jul 27, 2006)

About the only router solution I could think of for that would be a CNC router setup, which is most likely how the original was made (citing the rounded inside corners) The details look like they would be too fine for a pattern or flush trim router bit to fit into.


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## vjeko (Feb 5, 2009)

Ken, I'm no expert, so not sure if this is the best answer , but I'd like to help  - we'll see what the experts say later on.

I'd do it with a drill (starting holes) and router with a template bit - something
like this : Wealden Tool Company Limited Template Trim
(you can see there are short ones, so you can make a couple of passes on the height of the template). The only problem may be the radius of the corners - maybe you'll need
2 router bits (redo the corners with a smaller bit). 

You could also do it with a bushing if the template was made oversized accordingly eg with : http://www.trend-uk.com/en/UK/productlist/4/31/Oversize_Cutter_Profilers.html


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## MartinW (Jun 26, 2013)

Ken,

I would say the answer depends on the size of the narrower gaps and if a halfway matching copy-bit for the router could be found.

If my measurements from the picture and calculations are halfway right, then the narrower gaps would be about 8mm wide.

If a bearing guided bit that size could be found, then the router is surely the better and especially faster choice.

Even if there would be minor tips and details, where an almost fitting copy-bit for a router might just not get in totally - the smallest bits I'd know of have 3/8", a router still could be the faster solution to hog out the majority of the material - only using e.g. a scrollsaw for the last tiny bits and details.

After all, you want to create 6 copies of the "master", not just one.
Therefore, only if not an even closely matching bit could be found, I'd go for 100% scrollsaw.

In regards to the choice of material, starting from about 8-10mm or thicker, personally I would perhaps prefer soft pine over plywood. Pine gives a warmer feeling than ply - which might be very welcome for a headboard of a bed. And since you plan to set the copies into a frame, stability would not be that much of a problem.

Martin


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## distrbd (Oct 8, 2009)

Thank you all for your replies,as I gathered from your comments the best possible way to make this pattern is a scroll saw although a router would probably be the quickest way to achieve it but too difficult to find a source for the correct size bits.

I'll start cutting asap rather than talking about it , I have in mind to make some changes like reducing the actual headboard width , building 3 pieces instead of six,and make some similar design on the bottom portion where the bed and pillows will cover.

I will be starting it soon and will keep you all posted.
Thank you all again for your inputs.
Ken.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Whiteside makes flush trim spiral bits down to 1/8" diameter which should easily be small enough for those corners since they don't appear to, or need to go down to sharp points. Using spirals will save days of sanding to remove saw marks. I would still use a scroll saw to get most of the waste out. The spirals will last longer if you do and that is a lot of cutting and routing. You might want to go with the 1/4" spiral for most of the routing and just switch to the 1/8" to finish the corners. That would be a lot of routing for a 1/8" diameter.

The numbers for the bits are RFT 1600 and RFT 2100. Those are up spiral, down spiral is RFTD. I didn't check pricing.


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## TangoDown3727 (Oct 13, 2013)

Scroll saw, hands down.


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

I do stuff like that a lot, except I call mine 'masters', instead of 'templates'. I start by laying out the template onto the project piece; I tack mine down with nails. Then drill a pilot hole. Depending on my mood, I might cut out the excess with a sabre saw, then rout, or just rout it out with a 1/2" flush trim bit; the larger the piece to come out, the more likely I will cut, instead of simply rout. If the corners aren't quite sharp enough, then I'd go over it again with a 1/4" bit in the corners - I figure that would be more than sharp enough for anything I do. However, as a rule I make my templates to be used with 1/2" bits, then don't have to change anything, just rout. 

Then repeat with the other pieces. When I put it together, I'd make sure the nail holes were not on the front of the pieces. 

Here's an example of one of my masters.


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## Keith Hodges (Apr 30, 2013)

Yeah, you can certainly do this with a scroll saw, if you have lots of time to invest. A CNC router is far better, and quicker. You'll also get matching pieces. I realize not everyone has a CNC, but there are plenty that do, so check the CNC forum, as well as other CNC forums, you might find someone willing to do it inexpensively.


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## distrbd (Oct 8, 2009)

Keith Hodges said:


> A CNC router is far better, and quicker.


Hi Keith,I agree ,but I have recently retired ,have lots of time ,can spend a couple of hours a day to do this project with my scroll saw,it would have been nice to have a cnc router since it is quick and precise but the DW788 that I have is a good scroll saw and (although I'm not a patient man by nature)using it is very therapeutic for me.I thought a hand held router would have been a good alternative but it looks like a scroll saw is the best tool for the job in my case.

I will only make 3 copies of the "master" so it is not too bad .

Thank you all for your comments,I sincerely appreciate all your inputs.
Ken.


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

distrbd said:


> I will only make 3 copies of the "master" so it is not too bad .


OK, am I missing something, or what? Originally you said you wanted to make six copies. Now you're saying you will make three copies of the 'master'. I'm not understanding.

If you make one master, just the way you want it, then you can basically use that to clone as many copies as you want. You just need the one master.

The way I do mine is, I use 1/2" plywood. Get it just the way I want it, which may mean starting from scratch, or cutting out a piece, gluing a new piece in, then redoing that portion. I have been able to make a very satisfactory master in one try, and it has also taken me up to seven re-triess before I have it the way I want. I glue that down to another piece of 1/2" plywood. When the glue is dry, I rout the second piece, using the first as a guide. This winds up giving me a master 1" thick. I then drill pilot holes for small nails to tack it down to the piece to be routed. I like the 1" thickness, as it give a hefty handhold, and not likely to slip at all. But, of course, every time you make a change, or want each piece to vary from the others, that means more masters. I cut my original out with the scrollsaw, plus any changes I have to make. Then the rest of it is basically all routing. My router is in my table, and I normally use just a 1/2" flush trim/pattern bit. 

Here is a picture of some chess pieces I am making. These are small, so my masters are nothing like described above. But, if they were larger, yard chess size say, then I would do exactly as above.


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## TomE (Dec 17, 2010)

Pin router.

For the few pieces being done, go with whatever tools you have.


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> Whiteside makes flush trim spiral bits down to 1/8" diameter which should easily be small enough for those corners since they don't appear to, or need to go down to sharp points. Using spirals will save days of sanding to remove saw marks. I would still use a scroll saw to get most of the waste out. The spirals will last longer if you do and that is a lot of cutting and routing. You might want to go with the 1/4" spiral for most of the routing and just switch to the 1/8" to finish the corners. That would be a lot of routing for a 1/8" diameter.
> 
> The numbers for the bits are RFT 1600 and RFT 2100. Those are up spiral, down spiral is RFTD. I didn't check pricing.


+1 w/ Charles...

I have scroll saw, routers etc. You could do either, but I'm thinking using a router with a pattern bit would be easy to whip out exact copies of it multiple times over. No problems. Little skill involved.

There is nothing there that could not be done with a router using a small diameter flush cut pattern bit. There are no sharp inside corners to that pattern.

I usually do scroll saw work with 3/8" and thinner stock. 1/2" would be a load on that, but if you took your time....

Sometimes the fastest and easiest is using the combined strengths of multiple tools to your advantage. What may be best is to drill out access to it. Then rough cut it out to within 1/4" of finished cut. You could do a rough cut with either a scroll or jig saw. Then use a pattern bit to finish it off.

If you didn't rough cut it out first, then you'd still need to punch through, then take 1/4" depth of cuts at a time. Could be done, but would just be slower. Remembering that you're working with 1/2" thick stock, I wouldn't try to attack it all at once. But you could punch through and rough it out with a panel bit... then a pattern bit to finish.

So it still ends up in your court in what methods you feel comfortable with using. If that method involved enjoying the journey by whittling it out with grand pa's old pocket knife, that is up to you.

But you asked what we would do...


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## distrbd (Oct 8, 2009)

JOAT said:


> OK, am I missing something, or what? Originally you said you wanted to make six copies. Now you're saying you will make three copies of the 'master'. I'm not understanding.


Thank you for your replies ,I'm sorry I wasn't clear in my explanation in post#6.

The first couple of headboards I made in the past had one thing in common,the bottom half of the headboard (once installed to the bed) is usually hidden behind the box spring/bed/pillows.
the expose portion is always the top half.
The original plan was to make 6 pieces of 15"x 15" to make a 45"x 30" headboard 3 pieces on top row,3 on the bottom.
The revised plan:*still it in two sections*,but only the top portion would be 3 pieces of 15"x 15"=45" long.15" wide.
The bottom portion (the part which is hidden behind the bed and pillows)would be 45"x 7" of slats or a blank piece of wood . size = 45"x 22".
I already have the MASTER or template,I am using my scroll saw but you are suggesting to use a router which is a good alternative to scroll saw but the way I see it the master is a complex pattern with many small curves which seems to be easier (IMHO and in the opinions of most of the members who replied) to cut with a scroll saw than a router.
The examples of the masters you posted seem to be simpler than the one I'm using and probably why is best to cut with a router ,of course I could be wrong .

I'll try with a scroll saw first ,if it doesn't work out the way I want then the best alternative method would be to use a router.
Thank you again for taking the time to post pictures and for your suggestions.
Please let me know if I am on the wrong track.


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## distrbd (Oct 8, 2009)

MAFoElffen said:


> Sometimes the fastest and easiest is using the combined strengths of multiple tools to your advantage. What may be best is to drill out access to it. Then rough cut it out to within 1/4" of finished cut. You could do a rough cut with either a scroll or jig saw. Then use a pattern bit to finish it off.
> 
> .


That sound like a great advice,and very practical.I must at some point consider switching to a router just to see what work best.I have not used a router for this type of projects before so I am a little reluctant but if the scroll saw makes the job too difficult or tedious ,then,,,


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

distrbd said:


> I already have the MASTER or template,I am using my scroll saw but you are suggesting to use a router which is a good alternative to scroll saw but the way I see it the master is a complex pattern with many small curves which seems to be easier (IMHO and in the opinions of most of the members who replied) to cut with a scroll saw than a router.
> The examples of the masters you posted seem to be simpler than the one I'm using and probably why is best to cut with a router ,of course I could be wrong.


OK, got it. 
rNo, I am saying that is the way "I" do it, how you do it is up to you. 
Personally I find a router is much faster and easier than using a scrollsaw, to me the scrollsaw is a PITA. 
Yep, those masters are simpler, a lot simpler. I posted those, because I didn't know if I had any pictures of my more complex masters. 
However, I went looking and found some examples of some of my more complex masters; these are very precise. The tallest is about seven inches tall, and five wide. The center one holds a 5"X5" piece so as to have slots routed in it; the small notch at the bottom is to rout a very small arc, so I will know that side is the back of the piece. The other two are used to clone exact sized pieces, with a router, and they do that very quickly, very accurately, all with the router and a 1/2" bit - I could use a 1/4" bit, but the way they are made, the finished product would still be exactly the same size as if I used a 1/2" bit; neat, eh?. I am in the process of changing my method of making my figure banks, which these are used for, so these are now basically useless, all will be remade from scratch, incorporating the necessary changes. :moil:


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## belaire445 (Oct 21, 2012)

I would use a 1/4" bushing with a 3/16" spiral downcut bit. It sure looks like 95% of the cuts could be made this way. Of course, you'll have to make a template but the template can last years and be there for many more


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

distrbd said:


> That sound like a great advice,and very practical.I must at some point consider switching to a router just to see what work best.I have not used a router for this type of projects before so I am a little reluctant but if the scroll saw makes the job too difficult or tedious ,then,,,


What is going to be the problem is trying to sand it smooth once you are finished cutting with the saw. That is a lot of sanding and some of it is hard to get at. 

What Mike and I are suggesting is to use the scroll saw or a jig saw or even a drill to remove all the waste wood to within 1/16" of the finished pattern and then use the original pattern with a flush trim bit and router to the finished design. As I said, it will save you hours and more likely days of sanding.


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## distrbd (Oct 8, 2009)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> .. use the scroll saw or a jig saw or even a drill to remove all the waste wood to within 1/16" of the finished pattern and then use the original pattern with a flush trim bit and router to the finished design.


Do you mean to use a flush trim bit without a guide bushing?


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

distrbd said:


> Do you mean to use a flush trim bit without a guide bushing?


With guide bearings. 

--- Side Note ---
There are flush trim bits without bearings... But a flush trim bit without a bearing "guides" via the shaft _rubbing_ directly on the pattern. That tends to cause a bit of heat and doesn't move as smoothly.


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## distrbd (Oct 8, 2009)

MAFoElffen said:


> With guide bearings.


I would need flush trim bits 1/8" or may be 3/16",have not seen any with guide bearings.
The groove on that pattern is smaller than 1/4" in some areas.


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

distrbd said:


> I would need flush trim bits 1/8" or may be 3/16",have not seen any with guide bearings.
> The groove on that pattern is smaller than 1/4" in some areas.


I misread your previous. Without "Guide Bushings"... and smaller than 1/4", we were saying something like this:
Whiteside RFTD1600 Flush Trim Down Cut Spiral Router Bit 1/8" D X 3/8" CL 1/4" SH 2" OL









The shiny ring part there in that photo would go along the pattern and the spiral cutting your stock. Do it like that (or a similar flush cut pattern or flush cut bit) and you use the same sized pattern as you want to come out with. (Like the original you have.) Except-- that bit only has a 3/8" cutting length to the cutters... You sure some of that is 1/16" radius?*** (See note at end)

The reason you don't want to use guide bushings for something like that, is with guide bushings you make a pattern that is offset in size the distance of the bit to the bushing OD (pattern usually that much smaller) so it wouldn't work out to as much detail as you want to get with that. Besides, you already have an original to use as a same-size pattern.

I think you offhand asked about using CNC... I ignored that comment. A new low end CNC 2-axis router system would run you over $3500 for the tooling. Realistically, I didn't think you wanted to spend thousands on tooling to make a single piece of furniture right? Although... If you had the money to burn and if your significant other wanted it bad enough... and if you needed a reason... No, that would be a real stretch trying to rationalize that one. My wife is smarter than that. (LOL)

NOTE-- If 1/16" radius on some. what I would do is go with a 1/4" flush trim, then use an 1/8" bit to finish the detail. personally, I have a Dremel plunge base and I'd would use an 1/8" zip bit for the detail.


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## distrbd (Oct 8, 2009)

MAFoElffen said:


> I misread your previous. Without "Guide Bushings"... and smaller than 1/4",


I meant the smallest bushing in my guide bushing set is 1/4" and thought using it in a router with a 3/16" spiral bit would still be too big to fit in some areas of the template.




MAFoElffen said:


> The reason you don't want to use guide bushings for something like that, is with guide bushings you make a pattern that is offset in size the distance of the bit to the bushing OD


I undersood that but didn't know you were reffering to a flush trim bit with bottom guided berings that small(1/8"D).



MAFoElffen said:


> I think you offhand asked about using CNC... I ignored that comment. A new low end CNC 2-axis router system would run you over $3500 for the tooling. Realistically, I didn't think you wanted to spend thousands on tooling to make a single piece of furniture right? Although... If you had the money to burn and if your significant other wanted it bad enough... and if you needed a reason... No, that would be a real stretch trying to rationalize that one. My wife is smarter than that. (LOL)


I think you misread that,I never even considered a CNC router.I did take a complete course in cnc programing but never put it to use and therefore forgot almost all of it.
Plus I do want stay married to my wife,lol.



MAFoElffen said:


> NOTE-- If 1/16" radius on some. what I would do is go with a 1/4" flush trim, then use an 1/8" bit to finish the detail. personally, I have a Dremel plunge base and I'd would use an 1/8" zip bit for the detail.


Mike *thank you * for finally coming up with a viable solution,the bit you linked has bottom guided bearings and best of all it is 1/8" in diameter,wow,and I thought they wouldn't make them that small with bearings.
That bit will most likely work,I have used a 1/4" spiral like that to make table saw inserts and it was easy to use,I'll definitely order one .

For narrower areas(smaller than 1/8") your idea of using a dremel or rotozip is again a good one.I do have both tools and the bits.

Wow.I was dreading the use of a scroll saw for this project,and the time it would take,most of all I'm not a patient man and your way of doing it makes it faster and cleaner.
I forgot how great this site was,you all went out of your way to help me out.
Thank you all .


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

distrbd said:


> Do you mean to use a flush trim bit without a guide bushing?


Yes. With bits like I suggested in post #7 in this thread.
Whiteside RFT1600 1/8" CD SPIRAL FLUSH TRIM - Amazon.com
Whiteside RFT2100 1/4" DIA SPIRAL FLUSH TRIM - Amazon.com

or if you prefer downspirals
Whiteside Machine RFTD2100 1/4" Down Cut Spiral Router Bit 1/4" Shank
Whiteside RFTD1600 1/8" CD SPIRAL FLUSH TRIM - Amazon.com

As I said back then, I don't see any radii that appear to be smaller than 1/16".


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## distrbd (Oct 8, 2009)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> Yes. With bits like I suggested in post #7 in this thread.
> 
> 
> As I said back then, I don't see any radii that appear to be smaller than 1/16".


Thank you Chuck I finally understood what you meant.thank you for your patience.
As I mentioned in my previous post I didn't realize they made flush trim bits *with bearings* smaller than 1/4". 

I listen to your (and mike's)suggestion and just ordered the Whiteside RFTD1600 Flush Trim Down Cut Spiral Router Bit . ordered it from *Holbern,*I have heard nothing but praises about them and also they have very reasonable shipping charge to Canada.
Flush Trim - Spiral - Holbren


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

That is a lot of routing for a bit that small especially at a 1/2" of depth. Go slow and if you get a pitch build up clean the bit off. I would try and remove as much wood as possible with a larger bit first.


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## distrbd (Oct 8, 2009)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> That is a lot of routing for a bit that small especially at a 1/2" of depth. Go slow and if you get a pitch build up clean the bit off. I would try and remove as much wood as possible with a larger bit first.


I'll be using a combination of drill bits/spade bits, ,jigsaw to get most of it out.


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## distrbd (Oct 8, 2009)

update: I ordered a(whiteside) RFT 1600 flush trim 1/8"x3" ,1/4'"shank from Holbren in November but they lost my order and after contacting them a few times asking them about it they finally sent it to me which I received the end of December.last week
Flush Trim - Spiral - Holbren

The problem (if it is called a problem) is,the bit does not have bottom guided bearings! instead it has a blank end about 3/16" long and 1/8" wide.there could be a difference between RFTD vs RFT,at the time I ordered the bit there was no RFTD available ,only RFT1600.
I have not tried it yet an am not sure if not having those two bearings is crucial ,I wonder if they changed their design or if I ordered the wrong part.
I thought the bearings would roll better on the template than the blank tip scraping against it,I'll soon find out.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

The picture shows a bearing set but it must be for a larger bit as the text says pilot which means a solid surface. Use very light pressure and keep the bit moving.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

The normal flush trim bits don't come with bearings..

Solid Carbide Flush Trim Bits

Panel Pilot Bits

==


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## distrbd (Oct 8, 2009)

Chuck,Bj,thank you both,I have a larger spiral bit but it comes with bearing and I just assumed this small one should be the same but as they say ,never assume anything b/c when you do,..........


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