# J Phil Thien's Cyclone...?



## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

I read through the Dust Collection sticky and am convinced I need more than a shop vac (even with the little I do with wood). It seems a good "picker-uper" is necessary no matter what.

Does anybody on this forum have any experiences with his design...? I like the idea of a cyclone action in a collection vessel and have used something like this when I sand the bottom of my boat. My experiences are only with putting a 5-gal can in line with some water in it to capture the bottom paint dust before getting in the shop vac. This has worked but I can see Thien's design being better...or something like it...

Your thoughts, please...and thanks in advance...

Nick


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## mgmine (Jan 16, 2012)

I build one several years ago but only use it in conjunction with my Dewalt 735 planer. It works fine the only problem is that the dust comes out where the top meets the can. I have it held down with two bungee cords but the dust still comes out.


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## OPG3 (Jan 9, 2011)

Nick,

This is an often spoken of topic. Send a PM to "allthunbs" - he is extremely knowledgeable about dust collection. You can locate him quite easily, as he's at the alphabetical top of my "friends list". I am actually working on some designs for him here in my shop. The pulmonary long-term affects of breathing dust are atrocious.

Otis Guillebeau from Auburn, Georgia


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## OldGuy54 (May 17, 2013)

I just built a two stage dust collector using the Thien separator. I used a 2hp HF dust collector and a Wynn .5 micron filter. The strongest thing I can say is 'incredible'. I have a table saw, band saw, and planer that have 4" dust ports. I built the dust collector on wheels with a 10' hose. I just move it where I need it, hook up the hose and go to work. 

The Thien separator is built under the lid of a 30 gallon galvanized garbage can. I have only a 1/4" foam weather seal strip attached under the lid, but no leakage. I have emptied the garbage can twice and still have no sawdust in the clear poly bag under the Wynn filter.

More importantly, no fine dust layer on anything in the shop.


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## adot45 (Feb 6, 2013)

Hi Frank Welcome to the forum. It sounds like a real nice setup you've put together.


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## woodie26 (May 31, 2009)

OldGuy54 said:


> I just built a two stage dust collector using the Thien separator. I used a 2hp HF dust collector and a Wynn .5 micron filter. The strongest thing I can say is 'incredible'. I have a table saw, band saw, and planer that have 4" dust ports. I built the dust collector on wheels with a 10' hose. I just move it where I need it, hook up the hose and go to work.
> 
> The Thien separator is built under the lid of a 30 gallon galvanized garbage can. I have only a 1/4" foam weather seal strip attached under the lid, but no leakage. I have emptied the garbage can twice and still have no sawdust in the clear poly bag under the Wynn filter.
> 
> More importantly, no fine dust layer on anything in the shop.


Do you have more information on how you built yours?
Thanks


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## JudgeMike (Feb 27, 2012)

Nickp said:


> I read through the Dust Collection sticky and am convinced I need more than a shop vac (even with the little I do with wood). It seems a good "picker-uper" is necessary no matter what.
> 
> Does anybody on this forum have any experiences with his design...? I like the idea of a cyclone action in a collection vessel and have used something like this when I sand the bottom of my boat. My experiences are only with putting a 5-gal can in line with some water in it to capture the bottom paint dust before getting in the shop vac. This has worked but I can see Thien's design being better...or something like it...
> 
> ...


I built one a few months ago and posted some info about it with photos. I'm a woodworker rookie but got it done and it works very well. You can see what I did here.
http://www.routerforums.com/project-plans-how/41018-my-dust-separator.html

Mike


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

*shop vacs*

About a year ago I managed to pick up a Ridgid WD1450, 168 cfm shop vac. I put it on my LeeValley Tools cyclone lid and it worked a charm. However, at some point it was running too long and it got hot without my noticing and I burned out the armature. Just yesterday, I installed a brand new WD1450 on the cyclone lid and it wasn't long that I noticed that it too was getting too warm.

I'm using a plastic garbage pail under my cyclone lid and it deforms about an inch so the only thing I'm thinking is that vacuum cleaners of any type require a minimum airflow to cool them. If you're using a shopvac or equivalent, be cautious that it's not getting too hot.

If you're one of the engineers on this site, would you please add your thoughts. More to come...

Allthunbs


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## Cassandra (Mar 15, 2006)

Hi Allthunbs:

I don't see why the set-up should cause problems. What size are the hoses leading from the tool (saw, router, drill press) to the separator? The set-up you described is not too unlike using an Oneida Dust Deputy. They're made to go on shop-vacs. 

In my case (http://www.routerforums.com/tools-woodworking/15742-lucky-me-new-cyclone.html#post128460), I used a large Rubbermaid bin as the base of my separator and have had no trouble with the system. I use a 590 CFM King dust collector on top, to do the sucking. Never has got overly warm.

Big difference between our systems is that a shop-vac is low-volume, high-pressure whereas a dust collector is high-volume, low-pressure.

Cassandra


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Cassandra said:


> Hi Allthunbs:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## MT Stringer (Aug 15, 2012)

2 HP Harbor Freight dust collector with 30 gallon plastic drum upstream of it. The drum has the Thein separator mounted under the lid. It works great.

This method eliminates the possibility of foreign objects damaging the impeller.

Note: I still use a shop vac with a Dust Deputy to collect the dust from my band saw.

I can't find my pics of the HF dust collector setup. Guess I need to take some more. sorry about that.

Hope this helps.
Mike


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## Cassandra (Mar 15, 2006)

Hi Allthunbs:

My bin does not flex under normal suction. Even when I deliberately push the side in, it bounces back out. Now, if I block the intake, the bin collapses.

My main hose is 4", with a 2-1/2" extension hose for use with the table saw or free-hand router. 2-1/2" would limit the CFM, but not the pressure.

I'm not a mechanical engineer and will defer to wiser ones on this issue.

Cassandra


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## greenacres2 (Dec 23, 2011)

Here's a few shots of mine. Started with a scavenged barrel, scrap plywood and the Peachtree fitting kit. (faulty math done in my head is the cause for the second ring--divided the diameter by 2 to get the radius and missed!!) The lid keeps itself tight enough to not need to be clamped down. After a month or so of moving the barrel by hand, cobbled together a rolling stand and hose holder. System works well enough that I mounted the HF collector unit about 7' up on the wall. Don't know the specs or understand the science, but I do know that it works which was my objective. One of the most effective things I've ever done.

earl


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## MT Stringer (Aug 15, 2012)

I found my pics. Since these were taken, I have added the Wynn canister filter.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Hi Cassandra:



Cassandra said:


> Hi Allthunbs:
> 
> My bin does not flex under normal suction. Even when I deliberately push the side in, it bounces back out. Now, if I block the intake, the bin collapses.


Good, thank you. That's what I needed.



Cassandra said:


> My main hose is 4", with a 2-1/2" extension hose for use with the table saw or free-hand router. 2-1/2" would limit the CFM, but not the pressure.


OK, sounds like my hose diameter is too small at 2.5" but that's what comes stock with the vacuum. I guess it wasn't intended for long sessions. I'll post a query on the Ridgid forum.

Thanks Cassandra

Allthunbs


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## jschaben (Jun 21, 2009)

Ron, you're right about the shop vac type cleaners need the air flow for suction. A few years ago I burned out my shop vac just using a separator lid like you mentioned. I was half lapping a flock of 2x4's at the time with a dado head and plugged the intake of the separator head. Only took about 10 minutes to wring the smoke out of it. I've since installed a dust deputy which seems to have resolved most of the issues but I am more sensitive to listening to the vacuum.
Just FYI, I'm running about 8 ft of 2-1/4" hose from the machine to the dust deputy and about 18" from the dust deputy to the vacuum. The vacuum is rated at 190 CFM and 60" water.


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## MarcNThyme (May 13, 2012)

Hi,
I built a slightly modified vortex chamber based on his design and find it is extremely effective in separating almost all the chips and dust from my system.
It is so effective that I regularly empty the 30 gal container that the separator sits on and have nothing to empty from the lower bag of the dust collector which was the main collection point prior to the J. Phil Thien chamber.


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## Willway (Aug 16, 2012)

I hate to say it, and I have said it before; CONTRARY TO WHAT MOST PEOPLE BELIEVE THE DUST COLLECTOR WILL PULL THE MOST CURRENT, AND GENERATES THE MOST HEAT, WHILE IT IS MOVING THE MOST AIR. This is true on any type of fan. When a dust collector plugs up with chips or a rag or something, the blower is doing less work, pulling less current, and generating less heat. This true with all vacuum cleaners also, EXCEPT a vacuum cleaner has to have air flow to cool the motor. You can put an amp meter in line with a vacuum cleaner, and cap your hand over the hose and the meter will drop like a rock because it is not doing any work. It will sound like it is doing more work, but that is the sound of the motor speeding up because it's not doing anything. A dust collector does not depend on air movement for cooling, they are usually a TEFC motor (totally enclosed fan cooled). If you reduce the hose size from 4in. down to 2-1/2in. the motor will generate less heat because it is actually doing less work.


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## Willway (Aug 16, 2012)

allthunbs said:


> About a year ago I managed to pick up a Ridgid WD1450, 168 cfm shop vac. I put it on my LeeValley Tools cyclone lid and it worked a charm. However, at some point it was running too long and it got hot without my noticing and I burned out the armature. Just yesterday, I installed a brand new WD1450 on the cyclone lid and it wasn't long that I noticed that it too was getting too warm.
> 
> I'm using a plastic garbage pail under my cyclone lid and it deforms about an inch so the only thing I'm thinking is that vacuum cleaners of any type require a minimum airflow to cool them. If you're using a shopvac or equivalent, be cautious that it's not getting too hot.
> 
> ...


Hi Ron, with a properly designed cyclone separator you should see minimal or no vacuum at your catch can. Your restriction has to be on the inlet side. That lid should not be deforming with proper air flow. Remember the very fine dust particles that get past the cyclone separator will clog the filter very quickly reducing your air flow over the motor. You may be able to blow that 3 stage filter out with an air compressor blow gun. That very fine dust is the most hazardous to your health, so ware some kind of mask. Remember that unit is a 6-hp unit and that alone is going to generate quite a bit of heat. I hope this helps.


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## OldGuy54 (May 17, 2013)

You are exactly correct with your statement about airflow versus amperage. In fact, you can take advantage of this. A motor draws about 6 - 8 times its running current when it starts. This surge only lasts for less than a second, BUT, if you are having trouble with your breaker tripping on start-up because it is undersized, start the motor with the discharge or suction blocked. It will come up to speed faster and draw less starting current for a shorter time. Of course e right answer is to get the right breaker.

The same idea applies to big variable speed routers. Start them at the slowest speed you can then ramp up the speed after a couple seconds. This will reduce motor heating which can help motor winding life.


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## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

OldGuy54 said:


> You are exactly correct with your statement about airflow versus amperage. In fact, you can take advantage of this. A motor draws about 6 - 8 times its running current when it starts. This surge only lasts for less than a second, BUT, if you are having trouble with your breaker tripping on start-up because it is undersized, start the motor with the discharge or suction blocked. It will come up to speed faster and draw less starting current for a shorter time. Of course e right answer is to get the right breaker.
> 
> The same idea applies to big variable speed routers. Start them at the slowest speed you can then ramp up the speed after a couple seconds. This will reduce motor heating which can help motor winding life.


Hmm, the initial surge will be the same... blocking the air flow does *NOT* change the electrical resistance of the motor winding! It *might* change the duration of the surge. Air flow at startup either way is *zero*. Replacing a weak or undersized breaker is the answer.(_Do not exceed the amperage rating of the wire used!_) Using a dedicated circuit for the DC in that case(breaker tripping at startup) is also a good idea.

Any time a circuit breaker trips repeatedly, I'd change the breaker first. Increased contact resistance will cause the breaker to heat up. Might also want to check start and/or start/run caps if breakers continue to trip on startup!

As for routers... most newer ones have soft start. Trying to out softstart the softstart circuit will only result in more mechanical wear on the speed control pot! If your router heats up that much just starting... time to buy a new router!


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## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

Willway said:


> I hate to say it, and I have said it before; CONTRARY TO WHAT MOST PEOPLE BELIEVE THE DUST COLLECTOR WILL PULL THE MOST CURRENT, AND GENERATES THE MOST HEAT, WHILE IT IS MOVING THE MOST AIR. This is true on any type of fan. When a dust collector plugs up with chips or a rag or something, the blower is doing less work, pulling less current, and generating less heat. This true with all vacuum cleaners also, EXCEPT a vacuum cleaner has to have air flow to cool the motor. You can put an amp meter in line with a vacuum cleaner, and cap your hand over the hose and the meter will drop like a rock because it is not doing any work. It will sound like it is doing more work, but that is the sound of the motor speeding up because it's not doing anything. A dust collector does not depend on air movement for cooling, they are usually a TEFC motor (totally enclosed fan cooled). If you reduce the hose size from 4in. down to 2-1/2in. the motor will generate less heat because it is actually doing less work.


True, but if that fan motor depends on *air flow* for cooling, it may still burn up running with restricted air flow! Granted TEFC motors have their own fan and don't depend on vacuum/DC air for cooling.

Making an assumption while not understanding the difference can cause problems. Just because Amperage draw decreased, doesn't mean the motor won't overheat in a shop vac with zero airflow!


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## Willway (Aug 16, 2012)

Hi Duane, evidently you did not read all of what I posted. A vacuum cleaner plugged filter will burn up the motor just as fast as a clogged intake.


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