# Shooting the moon



## Gaffboat (Mar 11, 2012)

If you like firearms you may enjoy this post, otherwise "nothing to see here, move along." :stop:

I recently purchased Smith & Wesson's new Governor revolver which shoots .410 ga, .45 colt, and .45 ACP ammunition. It uses moon clips to hold the .45 ACP and I have been shooting that caliber at the practice range. The loaded moon clips rolling around in my shooting tray as I traveled to the range bothered me so I made this quick little Moon Clip Holder.

I used eight 1/2" dowels, tall enough to stack two loaded moon clips on each dowel, glued vertically in a support base. I drilled 1/2" holes in some 1 1/4" disks to separate the top moon clip from the bottom one and ensure that the upper bullets don't bounce on the primers of the lower cartridges.

With this solution I can conveniently carry 16 loaded moon clips (96 rds) in a 3 1/2" x 6 1/2" space. Of course, when carrying a full complement of loaded moon clips the carrier weighs over 5 lbs! :yes4:


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Oliver, based on past posts, I thought you might have actually built something to shoot the moon with. That sounds like a hoot to shoot, rhyme not intentional, but it unfortunately would fall between a restricted and prohibited weapon here. I am not sure how the RCMP would class a pistol that shoots shotgun shells. That looks like a practical solution.


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## MT Stringer (Aug 15, 2012)

I thought you were serious for once!


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

Hi Oliver. Neat solution. What kind of accuracy do you get? I love my Bersa .380.
I recently got me a S&W Model 22A, bull barrel. Not been able to get to the range with it yet, but very nice. Won't replace the High Standard Victor, in my heart, that was stolen many years ago, but close. 
Anything in rifles? Recently got a nice Deutsche Werk Model 1, single shot .22 rifle, made approx 1921-1939.


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## Willway (Aug 16, 2012)

Oliver I like it! Now a nice fitting box to transport it to the range. I have wanted one of these or 'The Judge' ever since they came out. Excellent snake gun, for both kinds of snakes.


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## mailee (Nov 11, 2005)

Excuse my ignorance Oliver but a revolver that shoots .45 ACP? just how does that work? I see the moon clips but are they used in the weapon to hold the rear of the case and stop it from falling through the chamber if so are they made of steel as they look like plastic in the photos. As you can tell we don't get our hands on many firearms over this side of the pond. I have owned a few firearms in the past but since the laws got much tighter I gave up shooting. Sorry to high jack the thread.


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## Gaffboat (Mar 11, 2012)

JOAT said:


> Hi Oliver. Neat solution. What kind of accuracy do you get? I love my Bersa .380.
> I recently got me a S&W Model 22A, bull barrel. Not been able to get to the range with it yet, but very nice. Won't replace the High Standard Victor, in my heart, that was stolen many years ago, but close.
> Anything in rifles? Recently got a nice Deutsche Werk Model 1, single shot .22 rifle, made approx 1921-1939.


Accuracy is very good although I didn't shoot at any distance beyond 15 yards. At 7 yds I was able to keep most of the shots in the x-ring on a standard silhouette target. Of course, I can do that with my ancient Chief's Special also. [see attached. I confess that I'm showing off the target because my old eyes can't really see the front sight anymore and I was pleased with how well the shots were grouped. I was first issued a Chief's Special as a Sky Marshal in 1971.]

As a point of comparison, Federal makes a .410 load containing four 000 buck. So one shot from that is about the equivalent of four from your Bersa .380. However, the Governor definitely isn't something you can carry in your pocket. :haha:


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## Gaffboat (Mar 11, 2012)

mailee said:


> Excuse my ignorance Oliver but a revolver that shoots .45 ACP? just how does that work? I see the moon clips but are they used in the weapon to hold the rear of the case and stop it from falling through the chamber if so are they made of steel as they look like plastic in the photos. As you can tell we don't get our hands on many firearms over this side of the pond. I have owned a few firearms in the past but since the laws got much tighter I gave up shooting. Sorry to high jack the thread.


Alan you have it exactly correct: The moon clips hold the rimless cartridges to keep them from falling through the chamber. The clips are generally made of steel but removing the spent cartridges from those is difficult. Your eyes are correct. The ones in the photo are made of a polymer material and are easier to load and unload. The moon clip is nothing new. Smith & Wesson used it on a revolver in 1917 when the .45 ACP cartridge was first coming into use. Apparently even some Webley Revolvers used moon clips when they were converted to use the ACP cartridge.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Hi, Oliver; my experience is limited to my Army Reserve days back in the '70s (9mm and 7.62 NATO) so I'm sort of curious about the moonclips. Why those instead of rounds that work with speedloaders?
How Speedloaders Work - YouTube


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

DaninVan said:


> Hi, Oliver; my experience is limited to my Army Reserve days back in the '70s (9mm and 7.62 NATO) so I'm sort of curious about the moonclips. Why those instead of rounds that work with speedloaders?
> How Speedloaders Work - YouTube


That guy is slow. Now THIS is the way you are supposed to use a speedloader.
How to shoot a Revolver with world record shooter, Jerry Miculek! (handgun grip & stance) - YouTube

Moonclips are made for rimless rounds, which is what Oliver has been shooting. I would prefer full moonclips over speedloaders any day; less bulk, much less cost to replace one if lost, and I would say faster for the average shooter.

Speedloaders have been around for a long time. I just prefer revolvers for plinking, and semi-autos for serious.
http://www.guns.com/2013/03/30/revolver-speedloaders/ 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZnWx97HwD4


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## Gaffboat (Mar 11, 2012)

JOAT said:


> That guy is slow. Now THIS is the way you are supposed to use a speedloader.
> How to shoot a Revolver with world record shooter, Jerry Miculek! (handgun grip & stance) - YouTube
> 
> Moonclips are made for rimless rounds, which is what Oliver has been shooting. I would prefer full moonclips over speedloaders any day; less bulk, much less cost to replace one if lost, and I would say faster for the average shooter.
> ...


Thanks Theo, that was a fantastic video by Jerry Miculek. Looks like it's time for me to reconsider the Weaver stance I've been using for 45 years. Once again I'm delighted and amazed at the things I learn on this *router* forum. :yes4:


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## roxanne562001 (Feb 5, 2012)

Very cool!!! I like to wood work and shoot too, but I bet that thing kicks like a big mule with the 410s a little more gun then a girl like me whats to handle great in house defense weapon though. I was looking at the double tap in 45acp and that would sting a bit also I would think. I used to shoot a Smith 44 mag 629 how does the Governor compare in recoil? 
Have Fun
Roxanne


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## Knothead47 (Feb 10, 2010)

Great idea! Real handy to take to the range.
You have to use the moon clips with the . 45 ACP as it is a rimless cartridge. The .45 Long Colt and the .410 shotgun shell are rimmed.


> I have owned a few firearms in the past but since the laws got much tighter I gave up shooting.


Now you know why we have the Second Amendment. Ever wonder why the First and Second Amendments were first and second?


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## williamm (Oct 10, 2011)

Very clever indeed.


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## Gaffboat (Mar 11, 2012)

roxanne562001 said:


> Very cool!!! I like to wood work and shoot too, but I bet that thing kicks like a big mule with the 410s a little more gun then a girl like me whats to handle great in house defense weapon though. I was looking at the double tap in 45acp and that would sting a bit also I would think. I used to shoot a Smith 44 mag 629 how does the Governor compare in recoil?
> Have Fun
> Roxanne


Roxanne if you have shot a .44 mag then you would have no problems with the .410 in the Governor. The recoil is *much* less than the .44 and seems like less felt recoil than shooting +P loads in my little .38 special Chief.


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## vzbingo (Mar 1, 2012)

Roxanne, my wife shot one not to long ago and loved it. Now she wants one for herself!


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## neville9999 (Jul 22, 2010)

Oliver I understand why you got that gun, you never know when there will be an Wild Elephant or a manic depressive Water Buffalo loose in your house and that pistol would fix that problem. Neville


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

Does anybody out there that likes hand guns every heard of one that will shoot five shot groups around a quarter inch at 100 yards. There are such hand guns used in one class of benchrest shooting, the class is called the "Fly Class" or the class did exist when I was shooting back in the 80's, I don't know if it still exists now or not. The hand guns was in reality a little benchrrest rifle, just cut down to be hand held. Usually bult on an Remington XP-100 action with about a 12" hart barrel and 20X scope with a long eye relief. 

A friend of mine that had one happened accidently onto a turkery shoot during the holidays one time. He asked if he could shoot his pistol and they laughted at him said to bring his pistol and his money. The informal competition consisted of shooting three shot groups at a 100 yards, usually five shooters would shoot at a time the the person with the smallest group would win a turkey. They were a little amazed with when my friend shot three shots into .050", you could barely see the clover leave pattern to determine that there were indeed three shots in the group.k

Jerry


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## Knothead47 (Feb 10, 2010)

> Wild Elephant or a manic depressive Water Buffalo loose in your house


You would need something more that a .44 Maggie. 

I once shot an elephant in my pajamas. How he got in there, I'll never know- Groucho Marx


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## Oliver24 (Nov 26, 2013)

yeah, i like it


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## neville9999 (Jul 22, 2010)

Jerry Bowen said:


> Does anybody out there that likes hand guns every heard of one that will shoot five shot groups around a quarter inch at 100 yards. There are such hand guns used in one class of benchrest shooting, the class is called the "Fly Class" or the class did exist when I was shooting back in the 80's, I don't know if it still exists now or not. The hand guns was in reality a little benchrrest rifle, just cut down to be hand held. Usually bult on an Remington XP-100 action with about a 12" hart barrel and 20X scope with a long eye relief.
> 
> A friend of mine that had one happened accidently onto a turkery shoot during the holidays one time. He asked if he could shoot his pistol and they laughted at him said to bring his pistol and his money. The informal competition consisted of shooting three shot groups at a 100 yards, usually five shooters would shoot at a time the the person with the smallest group would win a turkey. They were a little amazed with when my friend shot three shots into .050", you could barely see the clover leave pattern to determine that there were indeed three shots in the group.k
> 
> Jerry


I/4 inch group at 100 yards with a pistol, Jerry I would have to see it to believe it. N


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

neville9999 said:


> I/4 inch group at 100 yards with a pistol, Jerry I would have to see it to believe it. N


Neville, you have to understand that these are not factory producted pistols. They are precision custome guns, made on bolt actions just like a competition benchrest rifle, everything is done to keep the everything completely concentric and stress free, this can not be done with factory guns due to the issue of manufacturing tolerences. These tolerance are eliminated when done by a skilled gunsmith. The same thing is done witht ammunition down to the variation in the thickness of the jackets uses to swaging custom bullets that are hand loaded into custom made cartridge cases. Most people have no idea of the accuracy achieved by the the quality of such guns and the skill of the people that shoot them. The three shot group at the turkey shoot measured only .050" , but no single group is indicative of the potential of the gun, it's the average that counts and tell one the real potential accuracy of any firearm. Averageing around .300" with the guns used in the Fly Shoot at 100 yards is not uncommon even you can't grasp it. Sorry you can't believe it, but if you are not familiar with this level of shooting you woujld be hard put to grasp what goes into building a custom benchrest rilfe. and ammunition that is used in it.

Jerry


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

I agree, hand held not possible.

In an 'vice' in a bench, possibly.


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## roxanne562001 (Feb 5, 2012)

*picture of xp 100 for those that don't know*

I used to have one in 223 it was very accurate. Here is a picture of what the xp 100 looks like. 


Jerry Bowen said:


> Does anybody out there that likes hand guns every heard of one that will shoot five shot groups around a quarter inch at 100 yards. There are such hand guns used in one class of benchrest shooting, the class is called the "Fly Class" or the class did exist when I was shooting back in the 80's, I don't know if it still exists now or not. The hand guns was in reality a little benchrrest rifle, just cut down to be hand held. Usually bult on an Remington XP-100 action with about a 12" hart barrel and 20X scope with a long eye relief.
> 
> A friend of mine that had one happened accidently onto a turkery shoot during the holidays one time. He asked if he could shoot his pistol and they laughted at him said to bring his pistol and his money. The informal competition consisted of shooting three shot groups at a 100 yards, usually five shooters would shoot at a time the the person with the smallest group would win a turkey. They were a little amazed with when my friend shot three shots into .050", you could barely see the clover leave pattern to determine that there were indeed three shots in the group.k
> 
> Jerry


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

jw2170 said:


> I agree, hand held not possible.
> 
> In an 'vice' in a bench, possibly.


I think he's talking about some mutant like this one. I would much, much, much, rather have fun shooting at soda cans, off hand, at 100 yards (with a .22 pistol), than mess around with something like that.


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

This is for all of you that don't know anything about accuracy. You live in your own limited world as we all do including myself. 

I once heard a man that was talking to an atheist about the existence of God. The atheist was going on about why he did not believe in God, the man that believed in God asked the atheist if he knew everything and of course he said, no, he didn't know everything, and other man said, do suppose that it might be possible that God could exist in the area that you don't know about. I'm saying that you that doubt me about the handguns accuracy may sort of be in the situation that the atheist was. Without understanding what goes into a benchrest rifle, in this case a handgun, you could not 
grasp what I'm talking about. Wish I had never brought it up, let's stick to woodworking where I am the novice and can stay in my place which is where I claim no expertise on anything.

Jerry


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

Here is a link to benchrest shooting for you Doubting Thomas'es, when you watch, should say if you watch the video, you might keep in mind that the center of the target being shown .375" in the inside of the circle. Two bullet just touching is well under a quarter of an inch, this will give you an idea of the accuracy that I have been harping one. Hope you will take time to look.

Jerry


http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...wYD4DA&usg=AFQjCNG1tboGvlZ147cJZdGORfbNKdJG7w


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

Jerry Bowen said:


> I'm saying that you that doubt me about the handguns accuracy may sort of be in the situation that the atheist was. Without understanding what goes into a benchrest rifle, in this case a handgun, you could not
> grasp what I'm talking about.


Well, I for one understand it, even considered doing it once. But it just ain't my cuppa. However, if I were to get into it, it would be with a muzzle-loader rifle, probably .50 caliber, because I doubt I could come up with the pocket change for a .75 caliber barrel, which I would prefer, now that I could enjoy. Even better, shooting 1,000 yards, with open sights.

Something along the lines of this is what I would really love, but don't think that's ever going to happen, unless I hit the lottery bigtime. 
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/threads/46450-built-by-a-machinist-not-I

But, if need be, I could probably suffer along with one of these.
http://www.nramuseum.org/the-museum...nia-kentucky-percussion-bench-rest-rifle.aspx 
http://nmlra.org/wp-content/uploads...-Rest-Mat-ches-Part-VII-by-Richard-Hummel.pdf


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

Jerry, please do not get upset........

We are talking oranges and apples here....

Bench shooting - V - hand held......


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

jw2170 said:


> Jerry, please do not get upset........
> 
> We are talking oranges and apples here....
> 
> Bench shooting - V - hand held......


James, you are correct, the conventional use of firearms is one thing, ghe sport or hightly accurate firearms is a very narrow area of interest and the majority of people have no idea that it even exists, let alone have an interest in it even if they did know about it. That is obvious from the posts to this thread about the subject.

Jerry


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Neat project Oliver and useful too. I used to enjoy shooting hand guns but then I became a certified mechanic for these little gems.


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## L Town Graphics (May 24, 2012)

Gaffboat said:


> If you like firearms you may enjoy this post, otherwise "nothing to see here, move along." :stop:
> 
> I recently purchased Smith & Wesson's new Governor revolver which shoots .410 ga, .45 colt, and .45 ACP ammunition. It uses moon clips to hold the .45 ACP and I have been shooting that caliber at the practice range. The loaded moon clips rolling around in my shooting tray as I traveled to the range bothered me so I made this quick little Moon Clip Holder.
> 
> ...


Oliver love the idea! Im a recent owner of a Springfield XDS 9mm (nice xmas gift from the wife). Its always nice to be able to mix two hobbies together.


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