# Trying to justify the expense of Pocket Hole Jig



## JohnnyB60 (Jun 15, 2009)

I’m pretty sure I bought a cheap one many, many years ago, but I can’t seem to find it now. I think I only used it once on a single project and wasn’t very impressed. 

I noticed that almost every cabinet making video I see these days shows them using Pocket Holes even where I feel that it’s totally unnecessary. So I started reading the reviews and everybody pretty much says it the best tool they ever bought besides the basic woodworking tools.

There have been times when a pocket hole might have made things easier, but I usually found a way around it.

I’m retired and not in the business of fast production of cabinets plus I don’t want to leave too much for the family to have to get rid of when I pass on. I already have so much to get rid of as it is.:|


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## RBreland (Nov 30, 2014)

I use a Kreg, forget the actual model number but it was about 130.00. I use it all the time. Works great and makes very strong joints. I know there are much cheaper brands but have Breard they are junk. I have seen Porter Cable has one now and it looks to be quality but don't know anyone win has used it. I can vouch for the kreg but the are not inexpensive. I can't imagine doing a project with out it.


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## woodknots (Mar 7, 2012)

I bought the K2000 a few years ago, used, from a gentleman that was clearing out some of his equipment. I use it all the time. If you don't mind using mechanical fasteners for face frames, shop cabinets, etc., it's the way to go - makes strong joints. I haven't found the need to get one of the newer models.
I think they are about $130 or so on Amazon.


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## MT Stringer (Aug 15, 2012)

I use mine mostly to assemble face frames for my projects.

If you are using it sparingly, this model might be good for you. I bought it for use in the field for remodeling a kitchen. I only need to drill a few holes and it worked well.
Shop Kreg Pocket Hole Jig at Lowes.com[com.lowes.commerce.storelocator.beans.LocatorStoreBean%40685b685b]&storeNumber=1145&kpid=1072743&cm_mmc=SCE_PLA-_-ToolsAndHardware-_-SpecialtyBladesAndAccessories-_-1072743%3AKreg&CAWELAID=&CAWELAID=1367980566

Or, this one for more work.
Kreg K5 Pocket-Hole Jig - - Amazon.com

This model has the clamping handle on the operator's side which helps if you are drilling holes in larger pieces such as cabinet sides (to attach face frame).

Hope this helps.
Mike


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## RBreland (Nov 30, 2014)

I looked at mine, it is the K4, the K5 wasn't out yet but if I ever have to replace mine I will go with the K5 unless I can check out the porter cable version in person. It looks a lot different but seems to have a lot of useful features.


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## OttoW (Feb 13, 2016)

Unsure how much use I would find for it I went with the R3 version ($39 Kreg jig.) It can do anything the larger jigs can do but takes a lot longer to set up when making multiple holes.


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## JohnnyB60 (Jun 15, 2009)

vchiarelli said:


> I bought the K2000 a few years ago, used, from a gentleman that was clearing out some of his equipment. I use it all the time. If you don't mind using mechanical fasteners for face frames, shop cabinets, etc., it's the way to go - makes strong joints. I haven't found the need to get one of the newer models.
> I think they are about $130 or so on Amazon.


Hi Vince, Has the K2000 name changed because i haven't found any information on it? I found a K5 that's in the same price range and a K4 for about $100


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## RBreland (Nov 30, 2014)

I guess it depends. My son has the r3 and it works but it takes some time to set the depth correct and takes forever for multiple holes. On the k4 and 5 you can remove the hole part and use it as the r3. 130.00 does seem expensive for what it is but it sure does save time and makes quality pocket holes. It has been a great investment for me personally but I do use it a lot and has definitely paid for itself in time saved.


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## JohnnyB60 (Jun 15, 2009)

OttoW said:


> Unsure how much use I would find for it I went with the R3 version ($39 Kreg jig.) It can do anything the larger jigs can do but takes a lot longer to set up when making multiple holes.


Thanks Otto, I was just thinking that i should probably try something less expensive to see how much i would use it. I think the one I bought years ago was a "General" brand from Home Depot and it must not have been so good or I would have used it again. 

I don't think I would mind spending a little more time setting it up unless it was really tedious and less accurate. I have a cheap dowel jig that has caused me more grief than its worth.


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## RBreland (Nov 30, 2014)

Yes, the general brand is not a quality product imho. I see the k4 is down to 100.00. It is the one I used and paid 130.00 for it as the k5 was not out yet. If you don't mind spending the 100. I would go with the k4. It will do everything you need it to do. 
Btw. The is the PC model island talking about. Definitely more expensive but looks like a neat machine. http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B004A...ethole+jig&dpPl=1&dpID=51MoC2B0P7L&ref=plSrch


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## PhilBa (Sep 25, 2014)

There seem to be 3 camps - one is opposed because it's "cheating" - not traditional joinery. one says "it's just another way of fastening things", use where appropriate and the final group is wildly enthusiastic, pocket holes uber alles.

I'm more in the middle camp. It's useful for cabinets and face frames but doesn't have the strength of M&T and similar joinery. I have a K4 and have used it for a number of shop projects. It does take a bit more planning plus extra time to set up and drill the holes. I built a little station to make it go faster. I don't use it a huge amount. At $100, it was a bit of a marginal buy for me. By the way, mine is a little off somewhere and I have to drill the hole deeper than the setup guide says. Always takes me a few minutes remember that since I don't use it frequently.

One question you should ask yourself - what am I going to build? If you are planning a lot of cabinets and built-ins, then it makes sense. If you are doing small projects like boxes, cutting boards and such, then it's a waste of money. Fine furniture, probably won't use it.


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

If you expand your thinking about where you would use it, you might find one of the smaller Kreg sets to be very useful. I would suggest thinking about it in terms of anytime you might want to strongly join two pieces at a 90 or 180 deg...this opens it up to more than just cabinet making...IF you do enough of that... (treads to stringers/risers from underneath, deck railings, hiding joints, home projects, edging workbench, outside furniture, etc...)

...just to add to looking for your answer for "is it worth it"...

Besides...before you "go" you can put it in the "chuck it" box... 

Someone else on this forum posted "I just hope my wife doesn't sell my stuff for what I told her I paid for it"... > :no:


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## oldrusty (Mar 31, 2011)

Hi Johnny. It's quite likely that the cheaper product will discourage you from using it much, while the Kreg does such a great job you will look for projects to use it on. I love mine. Oldrusty


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## MT Stringer (Aug 15, 2012)

My jig started life as a K4 with the handle on the back side of the jig. The problem was when I was drilling multiple holes in large pieces, I had to reach over (or around) to fasten/loosen the clamp. That led to scrapes on my arms which sometimes broke the skin (thinned skin fellow). I finally got aggravated enough to do something about it.

I modified the jig by replacing the clamping mechanism with an air cylinder controlled by a foot switch. Now it works great. I have drilled a lot of holes and never had any problems.

The first couple of pictures are my original set up with the jig mounted on a board. I would clamp it to the bench, then hang it on the wall when it wasn't needed.

And here is a link to the modifications I made to the jig.


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## OttoW (Feb 13, 2016)

JohnnyB60 said:


> Thanks Otto, I was just thinking that i should probably try something less expensive to see how much i would use it. I think the one I bought years ago was a "General" brand from Home Depot and it must not have been so good or I would have used it again.
> 
> I don't think I would mind spending a little more time setting it up unless it was really tedious and less accurate. I have a cheap dowel jig that has caused me more grief than its worth.


So far I've drilled somewhere around 150 holes with the R3. Once you get things set it's really not that bad. *I found it best to set the depth about 1/16" less than called for.

The clamp can stay attached the jig, works like vice grips. I set it up for 1/2" made my first holes unclamped slide it over and repeated. Once the depth and clamp was set for the right thickness it went quickly. 

I'm still new into woodworking. At this point I'll probably stay wit the little R3 unless I want to build a station for a K4 jig that can work with my work bench. I just have other needs for my modest budget. 

Bench: I haven't completely finished the bench, I tweeted my neck/arm and I'm waiting for it heal before getting back into my shed. My spacing is limited so my bench area has a smaller section that I can switch out to use a miter saw, table saw and hopefully soon a router table.









I still had some cleaning up to do when I took this next picture. It was exciting to use a flush trim bit and my plunge router base. :grin: The two sections now sit together much better. 










I think it might be a fun build to incorporate a K4 or K5 into my work bench. But that might be well down the road. When building my bench I decided to build a second unit so I can support more the work on both sides. Then I figured I should take down the quick shelves (in the background) I built to hold my power tools and built a french cleat system, it looks like my shed is going to turn into a wood shop. 









^Picture of the K4 station I saw online. It flips up for easy storage of the various pocket hole tools and fasteners.


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## woodknots (Mar 7, 2012)

JohnnyB60 said:


> Hi Vince, Has the K2000 name changed because i haven't found any information on it? I found a K5 that's in the same price range and a K4 for about $100


Johnny - the K2000 was an older model and has since been replaced/upgraded for the newer versions. I did buy mine a few years ago, used.
Here's a link to one I located on Amazon:

Kreg K2000 Pocket Hole System - Pocket Hole Jigs - Amazon.com


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## MT Stringer (Aug 15, 2012)

@OttoW -


> I think it might be a fun build to incorporate a K4 or K5 into my work bench. But that might be well down the road.


Check out my pics in the post above. I had mine mounted on a piece of plywood. I clamped it to the bench when needed, but hung it on the wall when it wasn't needed.


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## OttoW (Feb 13, 2016)

MT Stringer said:


> @OttoW -
> 
> Check out my pics in the post above. I had mine mounted on a piece of plywood. I clamped it to the bench when needed, but hung it on the wall when it wasn't needed.


I saw it after I finished my posting, I think we probably were posting as the same time. 

It looks like a good setup. The interchangeable section in my bench is to allow flexibility so I can do the same thing, hang my unneeded pieces on the wall or on a shelf.


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## JohnnyB60 (Jun 15, 2009)

RBreland said:


> Yes, the general brand is not a quality product imho. I see the k4 is down to 100.00. It is the one I used and paid 130.00 for it as the k5 was not out yet. If you don't mind spending the 100. I would go with the k4. It will do everything you need it to do.
> Btw. The is the PC model island talking about. Definitely more expensive but looks like a neat machine. http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B004A...ethole+jig&dpPl=1&dpID=51MoC2B0P7L&ref=plSrch
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks Robert, I might just go ahead and buy the K4. I looked on eBay and they seam to be holding their value in case I need to sell it in a few years although I don't know if they are actually selling.

I bought a lot of tools when I was younger while making a lot of money thinking I would start a little handyman business when I retired, but now I don't have the strength to do that unless the customer has the patience to wait while. LOL Plus most of the tools I bought are now obsolete and I can't even sell them.:no:


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## DonkeyHody (Jan 22, 2015)

Just do it. Once you have one, You'll find uses for it that you hadn't thought about. I was sort of in the camp that says "real" woodworkers use joints and dowels. Then I got one but was only going to use it sparingly. Now I use them anywhere they won't show and some places they do show. Like if it's something for the shop instead of the house. They're just too handy to ignore.


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## JohnnyB60 (Jun 15, 2009)

MT Stringer said:


> I use mine mostly to assemble face frames for my projects.
> 
> If you are using it sparingly, this model might be good for you. I bought it for use in the field for remodeling a kitchen. I only need to drill a few holes and it worked well.
> Shop Kreg Pocket Hole Jig at Lowes.com[com.lowes.commerce.storelocator.beans.LocatorStoreBean%40685b685b]&storeNumber=1145&kpid=1072743&cm_mmc=SCE_PLA-_-ToolsAndHardware-_-SpecialtyBladesAndAccessories-_-1072743%3AKreg&CAWELAID=&CAWELAID=1367980566
> ...


Oh wow, I steped out in the shop for awhile and I missed this altogether. Thanks Mike


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## JohnnyB60 (Jun 15, 2009)

I know a lot of people call this a strong joint, but I have always felt that this type of joinery was weak just by looking at it although I have never tested it. 
I was working as a framing carpenter when I was in my late teens and early 20s doing balloon frame houses in PA. Since the studs were 2 stories high we had to toenail each stud to the bottom plate and they were really easy to knock out if I made a mistake so I never really trusted the strength of toe nailing anything.


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## RBreland (Nov 30, 2014)

DonkeyHody said:


> Just do it. Once you have one, You'll find uses for it that you hadn't thought about. I was sort of in the camp that says "real" woodworkers use joints and dowels. Then I got one but was only going to use it sparingly. Now I use them anywhere they won't show and some places they do show. Like if it's something for the shop instead of the house. They're just too handy to ignore.



There are also ways to "hide" the pocket holes if needed. There sell wooden dowels cut at the same angle as the pocket hole angles that fit perfectly into the holes and you glue them in. You can then sand them a bit and you never notice unless you are looking for them. They sell All different species of wood types, from paint grade pine all the way to oak and cherry. Most of the time there is no need to do this as you make the pocket holes in places no one ever looks. Before I purchased mine I put in my cart and removed it several times before I decided to bite the bullet not knowing how much I would actually use it. I'm glad I put it back in my cart for sure. One thing you do need to consider is for best results you need to use the screws made for the pocket holes by. kreg which are a bit more than standard wood screws. Somebody may have had luck with different screws and if so please let me know because I go through a ton of them.


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## RBreland (Nov 30, 2014)

JohnnyB60 said:


> I know a lot of people call this a strong joint, but I have always felt that this type of joinery was weak just by looking at it although I have never tested it.
> 
> I was working as a framing carpenter when I was in my late teens and early 20s doing balloon frame houses in PA. Since the studs were 2 stories high we had to toenail each stud to the bottom plate and they were really easy to knock out if I made a mistake so I never really trusted the strength of toe nailing anything.



I'm with ya on the toe nailing but for some reason, could be the angle and it being a screw, the joints are much stronger than you would think. A spot of glue helps it out to. 


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## MT Stringer (Aug 15, 2012)

When putting the cabinets together, I use a little glue along with the pocket screws. The screws really hold the pieces together while the glue dries! :grin:

The end result is a strong cabinet.

For face frame construction, I usually don't use glue. The screws pull the joints tight. That has been really handy on one ocassion. I put a mid rail in the wrong spot. UGH! But it was a simple matter to remove the screws, re-position the rail and screw it in place. Whew! :grin:

No use repeating the info here but if you want, check out my projects and threads. I use the pocket screws a lot for almost all of my projects. I have no regrets.
http://www.routerforums.com/search.php?searchid=4244777


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## JohnnyB60 (Jun 15, 2009)

Well I just ordered the K4 at FactoryAuthorizedOutlet.com for the same price as Amazon with free shipping. I get a free multipurpose knife with my order like I really need more knives, but what the heck. Maybe my grandson might like it. LOL


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## RBreland (Nov 30, 2014)

Congrats Johnny. They used to give you a dvd to help get you started, I don't think I ever watched mine but probably should have you. The documentation thy comes with it is pretty good if I recall. Main thing that follows the measure twice cut once rule is to make sure you set the jig and bit to the correct thickness of your wood. Mine has a couple of extra holes in the bottom of the jig because I forgot. I just say it is a way to know it's mine if I am working on a team
Project and someone has one also. I would definitely join the kreg community on the kreg site. It is a great resource. 


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## paduke (Mar 28, 2010)

I use Sommerfields pocket hole jig. It is great quality I believe Mark(?) Sommerfield is a forum member. here is link Sommerfeld's 3-In-1 Pocket Cutter


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## greenacres2 (Dec 23, 2011)

I'm a little late to the party, but i bought a K2000 from Detroit Mike a few years back--used it for a year, bought a K4 and sold the 2000 for $10 more than i paid for it. I wanted to try one, but it's one of those tools that just doesn't come up on the secondary (used) market often enough or at enough of a discount from retail to make it worth the waiting. I did pick up a used heavy duty model last year for a good price, a great way to retrofit blocking between studs for any reason. 

I'd be in middle of the three camps mentioned, use it where it makes sense. I have joined 45 deg face frames with glue, that took a little trial and error--but much easier than finding a way to clamp it. I usually hide the holes, but have used the plugs (which can be made by cutting a 3/8" dowel at 15 degrees--no need to be perfect since the ends will be sawn & sanded)

Mine is mounted to a board with wings on each side for stock support. In the spring i may cut a 1" deep recess into my workbench as suggested by Otto so i can just clamp the fixture when needed--though the mounting board and cordless drill make it a real easy tool to be mobile with. And--Mike Stringer's sexy little pneumatic plunger may just get built here some day!!

The dust collection on the K4 is good, and hooking up a vac makes the drilling a lot easier/quicker. And, Kreg makes great screws. I often use the screws as screws (no pocket hole), and the drill bit makes a quick & easy countersink. That 1" washerhead is great for wire loops when running cable as well. I think Kreg will even sharpen the bits for something like $4 or so.

Good stuff, and it's a company that provides great service if you ever need to call them--even when you're honest and tell them you need a few parts for a miter gauge bought used, and it was your own mistake that caused you to lose the parts. Just in case that ever happens to you, i know it's happened to at least one person and they sent the parts for free!!

earl


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## MT Stringer (Aug 15, 2012)

Congrats Johnny. Check out this link.
Kreg Owners' Community

Also there are many videos on You Tube featuring the Kreg jig in some form or fashion.


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## JohnnyB60 (Jun 15, 2009)

greenacres2 said:


> ..........
> The dust collection on the K4 is good, and hooking up a vac makes the drilling a lot easier/quicker. And, Kreg makes great screws. I often use the screws as screws (no pocket hole), and the drill bit makes a quick & easy countersink. That 1" washerhead is great for wire loops when running cable as well. I think Kreg will even sharpen the bits for something like $4 or so...........
> earl


Ok thanks Earl, this is exactly what I’m looking for. I have had the worst luck finding vacuum hose fittings to connect a standard ShopVac to any of my tools with dust collection. 

I’ve had to resort to everything from radiator hoses to sink drain pipe. I lucked out with my PC 890 router dust collector when I noticed my neighbor throwing away an old vacuum cleaner. It turned out that the hose fit my PC router perfectly.


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## cocobolo1 (Dec 31, 2015)

Glad to hear that your dilemma has been solved.

But for the life of me I couldn't wrap my head around "trying to justify the expense" thing? How on earth does that work anyway? If it's cheaper than a week's worth of groceries and gas it doesn't even count. You just buy it...simple. >


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## RBreland (Nov 30, 2014)

cocobolo1 said:


> Glad to hear that your dilemma has been solved.
> 
> 
> 
> But for the life of me I couldn't wrap my head around "trying to justify the expense" thing? How on earth does that work anyway? If it's cheaper than a week's worth of groceries and gas it doesn't even count. You just buy it...simple. >



I wish it were that simple. This is me.

Ok, I really want this because it will save me some time and I am a tool junkie. This 100.00 is coming from somewhere, wife won't approve as she has no idea why I "need a piece of plastic for 100.00 and another stupid tool" so it has to come from somewhere so I dip into the Harley Fund, which grows by 25.00 a week and has been 10 years in the making so far. In 14 months I will be getting close to what I plan on buying so now it's 15 Months, unless I see another really
Neat tool or cool piece of plastic, which sometimes get used once or twice and end up in the part of the workshop that the kids love to look at and ask "what does this do? I never see you use it."


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## cocobolo1 (Dec 31, 2015)

RBreland said:


> I wish it were that simple. This is me.
> 
> Ok, I really want this because it will save me some time and I am a tool junkie. This 100.00 is coming from somewhere, wife won't approve as she has no idea why I "need a piece of plastic for 100.00 and another stupid tool" so it has to come from somewhere so I dip into the Harley Fund, which grows by 25.00 a week and has been 10 years in the making so far. In 14 months I will be getting close to what I plan on buying so now it's 15 Months, unless I see another really
> Neat tool or cool piece of plastic, which sometimes get used once or twice and end up in the part of the workshop that the kids love to look at and ask "what does this do? I never see you use it."
> ...


It would appear that you're confusing "Harley Fund" ( a perfectly understandable fund I might add ) with Tool Fund. Really one and the same. You can always borrow from the tool fund later when you need to repair the Harley.

Sent from my T-Fal 4 slice toaster. >


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## LazurusLong (Jan 20, 2015)

Nickp said:


> Someone else on this forum posted "I just hope my wife doesn't sell my stuff for what I told her I paid for it"... > :no:


 Awesome!!!:grin:


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## DonkeyHody (Jan 22, 2015)

RBreland said:


> This 100.00 is coming from somewhere, wife won't approve as she has no idea why I "need a piece of plastic for 100.00 and another stupid tool" so it has to come from somewhere so I dip into the Harley Fund, which grows by 25.00 a week and has been 10 years in the making so far.


What you need is a project that your wife REALLY wants. A big one, that takes a lot of time and effort. Then, every tool you want while you're building that project gets "charged" to the project. Works for me . . .


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## richjh (Jan 14, 2013)

I purchased the Kreg Mini for around $20. I just needed one for occasional use and where I can use it with a cordless drill when AC power is not handy and it works great if speed is not an issue. It's single hole model and I use my own clamp with it. I have a more expensive Porter Cable pocket hole cutter if I need a lot of repeatable holes but I find myself using the Kreg more often.

Rich


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## RBreland (Nov 30, 2014)

DonkeyHody said:


> What you need is a project that your wife REALLY wants. A big one, that takes a lot of time and effort. Then, every tool you want while you're building that project gets "charged" to the project. Works for me . . .



I have played that card so many times the corner is bent so she can pick it out of the deck. Lol


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## RBreland (Nov 30, 2014)

cocobolo1 said:


> It would appear that you're confusing "Harley Fund" ( a perfectly understandable fund I might add ) with Tool Fund. Really one and the same. You can always borrow from the tool fund later when you need to repair the Harley.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my T-Fal 4 slice toaster. >



Shhhhh! I know they are the same but it's hard to sell the concept to my wife she will have lots of fun riding on the back of a new table saw down country roads. 
(Keep the jokes to yourself, way to easy) LOL


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## JohnnyB60 (Jun 15, 2009)

richjh said:


> I purchased the Kreg Mini for around $20. I just needed one for occasional use and where I can use it with a cordless drill when AC power is not handy and it works great if speed is not an issue. It's single hole model and I use my own clamp with it. I have a more expensive Porter Cable pocket hole cutter if I need a lot of repeatable holes but I find myself using the Kreg more often.
> 
> Rich


Well Rich, I hope I didn't make a mistake by not buying the smaller one. I'll have to wait until it gets here to see if I'm actually going to use it enough to get my moneys worth.

One year I told my wife that I really needed a biscuit cutter for Christmas and have only used it once. It was partly because everyone told me after I got it that the joints weren't strong enough. :frown:


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## RBreland (Nov 30, 2014)

Hey Rich. Do you like the Porter Cable one? I have seen it online but have yet to see it in person. Looks like a quality machine and takes all the need to reset for different thicknesses. 


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## N'awlins77 (Feb 25, 2011)

The Kreg Pocket Hole Jig gets my vote as well! I have the K4 and used it on the boxes, drawers and cabinet door face frames of the set of cabinets I built for my house. And I've used it dozens of other projects! It is one of my favorite tools!! Like Mike, I use glue along with it, and everything is tight as can be.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

I have the K4 system and use it all the time. I use it on nearly all case work. If you cut the pieces at 90 to the table, the screws pull the pieces together quite square. You can also glue and use the screws for clamping purposes. Setting the depth stop is very easy: push the bit into the jig until it is about 1/8th inch from the surface, slide the stop down and lock it on the bit's shank. Done. You will be surprised how strong the joints are.

You also need to buy at least two clamps. The Kreg KHC-RAC Right Angle Clamp, which holds a joint together to make a corner. It is a MUST for cabinet work. The other must have clamp is the Kreg KHC-PREMIUM Face Clamp. I also have the long reach clamp, the Kreg KHC-XLARGE Extra Large Face Clamp, which is very handy in my shop.

It is also a wonder for face frames! The way it pulls the frame together square is amazing. Make 90 degree cuts and it pulls the joint tight and square every time. You can add glue if you wish, but face frames are normally attached to the carcass and don't need much reinforcement. Not long ago I made a set of fake french doors for a stage set and used pocket screws to put it all together. No glue, and really ridgid and holds up to theatrical handling.

I no longer use anything but square head screws, the driver almost never slips as it does with phillips. You use coarse screws for soft woods, find threads for hard wood. Buy the screws in bulk. You will likely go through the 1 1/4 coarse and fine fast enough to buy them 500 at a time. Annoying to run out and the bulk price is usually less, and you can't always find the square heads at the big box stores when you need them.

To get your cuts square, get a Wixey angle gauge. Set the blade to 90 exactly to the table every time you cut something you're going to assemble with the Kreg system. If the cuts are not square, the assembly will be off and very difficult to fix.

There are lots of other ways to make joints, but for many kinds of projects, judicious use of pocket screws is the way to go. I have my kit mounted on a very flat piece of 3/4 ply with a riser on the sides of the jig to balance longer or larger pieces. I like the idea of having the clamping lever in front, but the K4 really gets the job done.

The K4 comes with a dust collection attachment, but the jig produces more like chips than sawdust, so I just brush it off the jig right into a trash barrel. 

I highly recommend this tool.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

I just realized I left out comment on the K5 jig. I would like to have the front clamping lever, given its the same price as the K4. But I also like having the side supports on the K5. My recommendations on clamps and screws applies to the K5 as well.


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## PhilBa (Sep 25, 2014)

Here is a decent tutorial on PH joinery. He's a bit apologetic about it at the beginning but it's a good treatment of the subject.


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## RBreland (Nov 30, 2014)

richjh said:


> I purchased the Kreg Mini for around $20. I just needed one for occasional use and where I can use it with a cordless drill when AC power is not handy and it works great if speed is not an issue. It's single hole model and I use my own clamp with it. I have a more expensive Porter Cable pocket hole cutter if I need a lot of repeatable holes but I find myself using the Kreg more often.
> 
> 
> 
> Rich



Hey Rich. I use the kreg K4 and love it. I like the fact that you can take out the drilling part and use it separate with clamps if desired. 
For some reason though the Porter Cable Pocket Hole Machine intrigues me when I saw it on Amazon. Do you like it? It looks like a quality little machine to me. 


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## firstmuller (Aug 28, 2014)

I have the single hole one for $20 also and have use over 100 screws with it and reworked a old cabinet in my shop with it and used Sheetrock type screws rated for outdoor use and they worked just fine in 2X lumber but I would not use them in 1#. I would be scared that the tapered head would slip the wood.
Allen


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## dovetail_65 (Jan 22, 2008)

*SO many uses other tna cabinet making for a pocket screw jig*

Though I wouldn't use pocket screws for a fine furniture reproduction, I would use it for utility or regular use type furniture, clamping and so many other things.

I have the set linked below. I use it for tricky glue ups for making larger crates out of plywood when I ship out my inlays. Like edge gluing two pieces of ply to make a large 65" x65" box. I can easily edge glue the ply to make 65" x 65" sheets by just adding glue and using the pocket screw to clamp the edges together. There really isn't any other simple way to do something like this and nothing near as fast. I used it one time for this application and for me that was worth the 135.00 immediately. 

Instead of trying to get around not using the pocket jig I suggest buying this kit and try using it for more things, things outside it's normal use even. I suspect once you start using it more and more you will easily justify the cost. If not Amazon will take it back within 30 days for any reason.



This kit has a lot of extras, a nice case, clamp, dust collection port(which helped more than I thought it would) and the pocket pro is included. That little pocket pro just came in so handy for making a repair to our kitchen table. It was easy to get in a tight space and I brought the tool to the tale, didn't have to drag the table to the shop. Actually, I dont see that the little pocket pro is included anymore, possibly I purchased that on a special deal. It seems this kit can be used near the same way, though the part is twice as wide as the single wide pocket pro. Still, the kit below is nice. I would wait untill it goes on sale for 119.00(about every month or so).

Kreg K4MS Jig Master System - - Amazon.com


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## Ray Newman (Mar 9, 2009)

I see you purchased one. Hope it works out for you.

After reading this entire thread, Phil Ba posted sage advice which should be considered when buying or considering a tool purchase:

"One question you should ask yourself - what am I going to build? If you are planning a lot of cabinets and built-ins, then it makes sense. If you are doing small projects like boxes, cutting boards and such, then it's a waste of money. Fine furniture, probably won't use it. "


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## JohnnyB60 (Jun 15, 2009)

Ray Newman said:


> I see you purchased one. Hope it works out for you.
> 
> After reading this entire thread, Phil Ba posted sage advice which should be considered when buying or considering a tool purchase:
> 
> "One question you should ask yourself - what am I going to build? If you are planning a lot of cabinets and built-ins, then it makes sense. If you are doing small projects like boxes, cutting boards and such, then it's a waste of money. Fine furniture, probably won't use it. "


Thanks Ray, 
I read the thread on tools collecting dust after I made my purchase and I hope it doesn't end up collecting dust like my 25 yr old dovetail router jig that i only used once. :frown: I use it to hold my coffee cup these days.


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## TomE (Dec 17, 2010)

Good-o and you'll probably find more uses for it than you think.

I've used them on cabinets, doors, decks, stairs both railings and cases, moldings, countertops, extension jambs, machine stands, clamping jigs. etc....... basically anywhere a sharp angled/oft hidden screw is needed to bind members together with immediate clamping action and often in combination with other joining methods like loose tenons.


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

This has been an outstanding thread. I believe that about everything about the PH joint was covered. 

The part about using glue along with the PH joint is an idea that I have just recently decided to try on the frame of a cedar chest, not so much for extras strength which is a positive issue, but more for not having to wait for the glue to set up. I'm thinking also of being able to sand the joint before the glues sets to get rid of the any glue line that would exist if the glue were to set up.


I use dowels on the joints for alignment and some added strength. I'm thinking of two dowels being used on a board that is four inches wide with a PH screw between them.

Jerry


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## paduke (Mar 28, 2010)

Jerry 
When I make face frames with pocket screws I clamp the pieces together. The clamps insure alignment before I screw it together. I lack your gun barrel accuracy and doweling always leaves a teenie weenie offset for me. With pocket holes and clamps I get better results


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

paduke said:


> Jerry
> When I make face frames with pocket screws I clamp the pieces together. The clamps insure alignment before I screw it together. I lack your gun barrel accuracy and doweling always leaves a teenie weenie offset for me. With pocket holes and clamps I get better results


Bill,
Help me understand, are you saying that the use of dowels cause the minor offset and if so, the to me anyway, the question is what dowel guide are you using.

That really isn't all that important if you are getting the results that you want by not using dowels. Once again, PH joint is a great way to go isn't it?

Jerry


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## dovetail_65 (Jan 22, 2008)

If I may interject, I think I know where he is coming from. Dowel work requires precise measuring, the pocket hole system using a face frame clamp doesn't. If I drill the holes for the dowels, even ever so slightly off center, the two pieces will not be flush. With the pocket screw system the face frame clamp actually forces the pieces flush while the holes are drilled and the screws inserted, with no measuring, automatically.

An experienced person that does dowel work often may not understand this becasue they know how to align and drill the holes perfectly, it's second nature to them, but required practice and experience.. The pocket screw requires far less technical expertise and experience. When my daughter was 11 years old she was screwing up face frame with 20 min of instruction, all came out flush. It would take quite a bit of training for her to learn to do the same using dowels. 

Both dowel and pocket screw have their place of course.


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

dovetail_65 said:


> If I may interject, I think I know where he is coming from. Dowel work requires precise measuring, the pocket hole system using a face frame clamp doesn't. If I drill the holes for the dowels, even ever so slightly off center, the two pieces will not be flush. With the pocket screw system the face frame clamp actually forces the pieces flush while the holes are drilled and the screws inserted, with no measuring, automatically.
> 
> An experienced person that does dowel work often may not understand this becasue they know how to align and drill the holes perfectly, it's second nature to them, but required practice and experience.. The pocket screw requires far less technical expertise and experience. When my daughter was 11 years old she was screwing up face frame with 20 min of instruction, all came out flush. It would take quite a bit of training for her to learn to do the same using dowels.
> 
> Both dowel and pocket screw have their place of course.




Dovetail,
Your observation certainly makes sense to me, and I have to admit that I had not thought of it.

However if, and this is an big if, one could get the holes driller "perfectly" the error would not be created of course. The ability to drill the holes is for all practical purpose almost impossible.

With the Jessem jig, the distance from the the edges of matching parts is such that it is probably correct, but the positioning of the jig on the parts from the end of the part to the place where the hole or holes are drilled is where the error is likely to be created.

When I set the jig up I either set the edge of the jig to the edge of the workpiece by feel which is not a real accurate method of setting the jig as it hard to feel a few thousandths and just a few thousandths of error is what you are alluding to.

Certainly a new issue to deal with. Thanks for the post, it makes me start to think about it.

Jerry


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

Jerry Bowen said:


> Dovetail,
> Your observation certainly makes sense to me, and I have to admit that I had not thought of it.
> 
> However if, and this is an big if, one could get the holes driller "perfectly" the error would not be created of course. The ability to drill the holes is for all practical purpose almost impossible.
> ...


Dovetail,

Just got back from a one mile walk and while I was walking I was thinking about what you said and I realized that what I had written back did not in any way address what you were saying, so forgot that post, I'll think on it some more.


Jerry


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

I really like strings like this discussion. On point, lots of helpful information, cautions, plusses and minuses. Practical. And no diversions into insulation or other "insider" posts that are of interest to just a couple of people. Thanks all.


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## MT Stringer (Aug 15, 2012)

Since I do a lot of pocket hole joinery, my work table is set up for clamps of all sorts.


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

MT Stringer said:


> Since I do a lot of pocket hole joinery, my work table is set up for clamps of all sorts.


Amazing, simply amazing, I love it.

Jerry


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## RBreland (Nov 30, 2014)

Promise you you will get way more use out of the picket hole jig vs a biscuit cutter.


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## JohnnyB60 (Jun 15, 2009)

*What, no Vac Hose Adapter?*

Ok I just recieved my Kreg K4 Pocket Hole tool and none of my Vacuum hose adapters fit. :surprise:

Well I guess I'm not surprised because nothing ever fits when it comes to dust collection. 

So what are the rest of you who have one of these using?


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## woodknots (Mar 7, 2012)

what kind of vac do you have - you probably need this one: item B on this page

Kreg® K4 Pocket-Hole Jig - Lee Valley Tools


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## RBreland (Nov 30, 2014)

Well Johnny, when bought mine it was before it was even part of the kit so I didn't Kane one included. Truthfully I use the blow method. Works great but it does have a habit of getting wood stuck in the drill bit , which is a pain to get out. Just make sure you run the bit in and out several times to clean the bit out.


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## JohnnyB60 (Jun 15, 2009)

vchiarelli said:


> what kind of vac do you have - you probably need this one: item B on this page
> 
> Kreg® K4 Pocket-Hole Jig - Lee Valley Tools


Oh wow thanks Vince, I missed that one.

I'm going to have to wait on that because the shipping is 3 times the cost unless I can find it on Amazon.


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## JohnnyB60 (Jun 15, 2009)

RBreland said:


> Well Johnny, when bought mine it was before it was even part of the kit so I didn't Kane one included. Truthfully I use the blow method. Works great but it does have a habit of getting wood stuck in the drill bit , which is a pain to get out. Just make sure you run the bit in and out several times to clean the bit out.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Well Robert I guess I could have my wife stand by with a vacuum like I do when I'm using my trim router indoors. LOL


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## woodknots (Mar 7, 2012)

JohnnyB60 said:


> Oh wow thanks Vince, I missed that one.
> 
> I'm going to have to wait on that because the shipping is 3 times the cost unless I can find it on Amazon.


Johnny - what type of VAC do you have? If it's a standard make like a rigid or shop vac that have 2 1/2 inch hoses, you should be able to pop into any hardware store or big orange and pick up an adapter.


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## RBreland (Nov 30, 2014)

JohnnyB60 said:


> Well Robert I guess I could have my wife stand by with a vacuum like I do when I'm using my trim router indoors. LOL



LOL. That is about the extent of my wife helping when I need an extra hand on my projects. That and "can you hold these together for me for a second" and then puts her hand in the exact place I need to screw.


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## JohnnyB60 (Jun 15, 2009)

vchiarelli said:


> Johnny - what type of VAC do you have? If it's a standard make like a rigid or shop vac that have 2 1/2 inch hoses, you should be able to pop into any hardware store or big orange and pick up an adapter.


Vince, I have a shop Vac, but I think one of my adapters is for a rigid that came with a universal 2 1/2" hose I bought.


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## RBreland (Nov 30, 2014)

Funny story but nothing to do with pocket holes. I had to trim some tile on my kitchen counter to make a new slide in oven fit the space since we converted from
A drop in Oven in to a slide in. Quite a little project.
I made this elaborate drop cloth tent to keep the tile dust to a minimum and asked her to hold the shop vac near the saw to help keep the dust down. Wifey said no problem and started vacuuming the air on the outside of the tent instead of inside so she wouldn't get tile dust in her hair. God I love my wife.


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## cocobolo1 (Dec 31, 2015)

JohnnyB60 said:


> Oh wow thanks Vince, I missed that one.
> 
> I'm going to have to wait on that because the shipping is 3 times the cost unless I can find it on Amazon.


The solution seems obvious to me. Buy more stuff! :smile:


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## JohnnyB60 (Jun 15, 2009)

cocobolo1 said:


> The solution seems obvious to me. Buy more stuff! :smile:


LOL Keith I do that now with Amazon. I keep adding thing to the cart until I get free shipping. They just raised it to $45 so now I'm buying more expensive stuff. :grin:


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## RBreland (Nov 30, 2014)

My family orders so much stuff from Amazon we did the Amazon Prime. Free 2 day shipping plus amazon prime video, kind of like Netflix. Works great because 6 of us went in on it and all take advantage of it. All different addresses and credit cards.


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## RBreland (Nov 30, 2014)

We save the 99.00 on shipping alone easy.


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## JohnnyB60 (Jun 15, 2009)

RBreland said:


> My family orders so much stuff from Amazon we did the Amazon Prime. Free 2 day shipping plus amazon prime video, kind of like Netflix. Works great because 6 of us went in on it and all take advantage of it. All different addresses and credit cards.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I should probably break down and get prime because we also buy an awful lot of stuff.


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## MT Stringer (Aug 15, 2012)

@JohnnyB60 select the vac hose adapter that is closest fit, yet a tad too large.

Use your band saw or hack saw to slice into it several times. Break out the wife's hair dryer and heat it up. Squeeze it closed and shove it home! Hopefully it will fit. Mine does.


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## RBreland (Nov 30, 2014)

JohnnyB60 said:


> I should probably break down and get prime because we also buy an awful lot of stuff.



Problem with it is you buy more stuff than you need. They do run some great deals on Dewalt stuff every now and then. Also you can find some good deals on table saw blades. Think this one will be my next purchase. Freud LU84R01 for 64.00, free
Prime shipping. Has anyone used this blade before? 


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

I bought a Kreg pocket hole jig after seeing Mike aka MT Stringer using his . Couldn't fathom living without it now


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## JohnnyB60 (Jun 15, 2009)

TheCableGuy said:


> I bought a Kreg pocket hole jig after seeing Mike aka MT Stringer using his . Couldn't fathom living without it now


Hi Rick, that's good to know. I don't have a use for it at the moment, but hope to find something soon. 

I need to make some drawers real soon and I'm actually waiting for some much needed tools before I can start. I don't think there is anything I can use the pocket hole tool for on drawers. The cabinet is already done


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## cocobolo1 (Dec 31, 2015)

JohnnyB60 said:


> LOL Keith I do that now with Amazon. I keep adding thing to the cart until I get free shipping. They just raised it to $45 so now I'm buying more expensive stuff. :grin:


$45? What a bunch of so and so's. It was still $30 only about a week ago. I wonder if it depends on what you're buying. Mine was for a Dewalt zip tool. Free shipping on that one, plus they gave me a rebate of $3.65 for something or other. Not sure exactly why that was, but they credited it to my gift account.


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## cocobolo1 (Dec 31, 2015)

MT Stringer said:


> @JohnnyB60 select the vac hose adapter that is closest fit, yet a tad too large.
> 
> Use your band saw or hack saw to slice into it several times. Break out the wife's hair dryer and heat it up. Squeeze it closed and shove it home! Hopefully it will fit. Mine does.


Sounds to me like you must have been a hot rodder at one time. >


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## JohnnyB60 (Jun 15, 2009)

cocobolo1 said:


> $45? What a bunch of so and so's. It was still $30 only about a week ago. I wonder if it depends on what you're buying. Mine was for a Dewalt zip tool. Free shipping on that one, plus they gave me a rebate of $3.65 for something or other. Not sure exactly why that was, but they credited it to my gift account.


Hmm Keith you got me thinking now. I wounder if its different for each customer.


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## CM1 (Mar 3, 2016)

I have owned the Kreg Pocket Hole K3 Master System with case for many years now. When I purchased my Kit there were not any DVD instruction manuals included at the time.(Note I purchased my kit from Lowe's as it was discounted end of year)(I found out that it was being replaced by the K4) I contacted Kreg when I saw the K4 kit because I felt I was missing out. They sent me the DVDs for free. Plus I get emails all the time with projects plans and other helpful tips. I have many Kreg accessories for both pocket holes and making saw work easier on my aging body.

I use the old tried and true biscuit and dowel method of joining face faces and other joints. That was so long ago. I had built all of the cabinets in my first shop along with my glue up table with this kit. I built the table with pocket hole joinery for ease of replacing parts that I knew I would eventually wear out. I had several friends so impressed by all the things I had build in the shop with the pocket hole kit they went and purchased them too. And when I closed do the shop one of those same friend purchased all the cabinets and table system for his overflow shop, saved him the time to build and made myself some money. 

I have built cabinets, bookcases, built-ins, Case work, raised panel wainscoting and flat panel wainscoting, window trim And last but least my Step son's bedroom furniture. Do you know how hard it is to build for a man that is 6'6" Evreything is larger than normal custom built for him My son still has most of that furniture now that he is married. His wife wants me to build more. Maybe one day I will surprise them. 

I also recently purchased the Kreg HD kit and used it to remodel a bathroom by installing additional wood bracing into existing walls for ADA grab bars and other additions to the rest room. Even used the kit to build some exterior wood projects. 
The kit has paid for it self in saving build time and labor cost. The initial cost of 139.00 for the K3 and the other 100.00 or so for the extra clamps have well been worth it and I would sell my 499.00 biscuit jointer and my doweling kits before I would let go of my Kreg Pocket Hole system.


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## JohnnyB60 (Jun 15, 2009)

WOW Jack I can see that I have a lot of learning to do. I did not get a CD or anything like that so I guess I'll have to start watching YouTube videos.


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## cocobolo1 (Dec 31, 2015)

JohnnyB60 said:


> Hmm Keith you got me thinking now. I wounder if its different for each customer.


I really don't know, but I'm a pretty good Amazon customer...add to that the fact of paying in Canadian $ as well, which is currently .74 cents US to one Canadian $.

It might have something to do with the sort of thing you are buying, as well as where it is being shipped from. For example, I have just received a bunch of books and one was sent from the UK. I had to hit $75 CDN to get that sent free, along with the rest of the order I was over that amount.


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## woodknots (Mar 7, 2012)

Keith
I've purchased books from Amazon and got free shipping on orders over $25. I'm in Southern Ontario and a lot of stuff gets shipped from the Toronto area, so maybe it depends on where you are located as well.


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## JohnnyB60 (Jun 15, 2009)

Well I do know that shipping to CA is higher than other states. I wounder if CA has started a new shipping tax in the last couple of months. I already have an additional tax on wood and they are trying to add a lot more taxes.


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## cocobolo1 (Dec 31, 2015)

vchiarelli said:


> Keith
> I've purchased books from Amazon and got free shipping on orders over $25. I'm in Southern Ontario and a lot of stuff gets shipped from the Toronto area, so maybe it depends on where you are located as well.


I've had the same thing Vince. In fact, until just the last couple of weeks $25 was the norm. I'll have to order something else and see what it says now.:smile:


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## cocobolo1 (Dec 31, 2015)

JohnnyB60 said:


> Well I do know that shipping to CA is higher than other states. I wounder if CA has started a new shipping tax in the last couple of months. I already have an additional tax on wood and they are trying to add a lot more taxes.


How terribly nice of them! :frown:


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