# Two new 110 circuits in my shop.



## hawkeye10 (Jul 28, 2015)

I had two 110 circuits put in today as I really needed them bad. I have tripped a breaker twice this week due to running an extra heater in my shop. It's not often that it gets this cold and stays cold here in middle Tennessee. Most of the time the one small heater will keep about 65* and that is fine with me but it's been getting down in the lower 50's at night with the one heater running. I am afraid to run the other heater at night because it's not a quality heater.

Now here is the bad part. I wanted to run a circuit for 220 volt but the cost was to high. The price for running the two 110 circuits was $1384.00. To install a 220 circuit would have been $692.00 more. :crying: 

There goes my drum sander I have been wanting. :crying:


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Don that seems unreasonably expensive. I doubt if the wire and two circuit breakers would have cost $100. What did they have to do that drove the cost so high?


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> Don that seems unreasonably expensive. I doubt if the wire and two circuit breakers would have cost $100. What did they have to do that drove the cost so high?


MAN I"LL SAY!!!!!!!:surprise:


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## hawkeye10 (Jul 28, 2015)

They had a book with prices in it and that is what they charged. They were located here in town but I found them through Home Advisors. I will say they did a good job but I thought it was high. I did get another estimate. What really bothers me is I could have done it myself if I were younger.


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## Woodchips39 (Mar 14, 2017)

Don, Those prices are much too high. I suggest you check out at least two more sources, I'm sure you can get it done at a more reasonable cost. In my shop I have two circuits one 20 amps just for overhead lighting and the other is 30 amp for power tools. I don't have a need for 220 volts but it might be handy if I up graded to a more powerful table saw. If I needed additional electric heat another 30 amp circuit dedicated just for these heaters is a good idea.


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## Knothead47 (Feb 10, 2010)

I do my own wiring. My house was built with an unfinished basement- 4 outlets in the whole basement! The previous owner wasn't a mental giant. He put sheetrock on the ceiling and for me to rewire it, I would have to torn it all out. May do that one of these days for the fun of it. I had to run an additional line as I couldn't run the shop vac, heater, or any power equipment or anything in the basement at the same time without tripping the breaker. The house is a split foyer- either take the wire up into the attic and then down. I opted to run it along the wall and under the foyer into the shop. Used Wire Mold and conduit.


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## Garyk (Dec 29, 2011)

Unless there was no easy access to the space the wire was run through the price was *outrageous*. As far as the heaters; small electric heaters are real energy hogs and usually pull between 1500 to 1800 watts. Having two on the same circuit will most likely pop the circuit breaker. If you have more than one breaker controlling the shop outlets move one heater to the other circuit and that should work. Running the 110 circuit is not rocket science, my daughter and I wired my whole shop which was inspected and approved (disclaimer: neither of us is an electrician BUT we both have experience (Navy electronics school for me-- extensive remodeling experience for her) and we *always have an electrician check our work*). I DO NOT RECOMMEND DOING YOUR OWN UNLESS YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING, AMPERAGE EVEN WITH LOW VOLTAGE CAN KILL YOU !!

In a small shop I prefer using my BUDDY heater. It doesn't use that much propane and gas is always faster than electricity.


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## hawkeye10 (Jul 28, 2015)

Well it't already done but I am still crying over spilled milk. I know how to run a circuit but I am just not able.


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## billyjim (Feb 11, 2012)

hawkeye10 said:


> I had two 110 circuits put in today as I really needed them bad. I have tripped a breaker twice this week due to running an extra heater in my shop. It's not often that it gets this cold and stays cold here in middle Tennessee. Most of the time the one small heater will keep about 65* and that is fine with me but it's been getting down in the lower 50's at night with the one heater running. I am afraid to run the other heater at night because it's not a quality heater.
> 
> Now here is the bad part. I wanted to run a circuit for 220 volt but the cost was to high. The price for running the two 110 circuits was $1384.00. To install a 220 circuit would have been $692.00 more. :crying:
> 
> There goes my drum sander I have been wanting. :crying:


Don I don't want to make you feel bad but I think you were hosed pretty good on that job. I just had 2 110's and a 220 circuit installed. I used a licensed electrician who lives in the neighborhood who does moonlighting .He did it all for $300 plus parts which ran probably 200 more at HD. I put a 5000kw heater on the 240 and it keeps my garage at whatever temperature I want. I usually keep it at 65. You might check for moonlighters to do your work and if you get lucky you might still be able to get your 240 at a reasonable cost.


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## ggom (Apr 5, 2017)

billyjim said:


> Don I don't want to make you feel bad but I think you were hosed pretty good on that job. I just had 2 110's and a 220 circuit installed. I used a licensed electrician who lives in the neighborhood who does moonlighting .He did it all for $300 plus parts which ran probably 200 more at HD. I put a 5000kw heater on the 240 and it keeps my garage at whatever temperature I want. I usually keep it at 65. You might check for moonlighters to do your work and if you get lucky you might still be able to get your 240 at a reasonable cost.


Well at least a bit of fun::smile::smile::smile::smile:

"a 5000kw heater"

That's not too bad heater!

It can warm up a 100x100 yard open air garden with no insulation at all!

Regards.
Gérard


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## Barry747 (Jun 16, 2011)

I'm in Florida. In October I had an electrician add 2 110 lines and 2 quad outlets, each with a GFI. $370. I also had another circuit run to the ceiling and they mounted a new WEN air cleaner that I bought. $225. My shop is in my garage which is where the breaker box is located so there weren't any long runs but the walls are cement block so they had to deal with that running the lines and mounting the boxes. Don, what's done is done but I'd suggest getting multiple bids before you have any more work done.


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## Semipro (Mar 22, 2013)

I sure as hell would hate to tell you guys about some of the mistake i have made you guys are tough on people.
Don if your happy and they did get a good job might well get *on* to making sawdust!


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Don the best solution if you need more circuits is to have a sub panel put in. You probably are still able to run circuits from that. If drilling holes in studs or joists is too hard then hire a young fellow for $20 or so and let him do the grunt work. Then show him him how to do the rest and let him learn something while he's there.


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## hawkeye10 (Jul 28, 2015)

Semipro said:


> I sure as hell would hate to tell you guys about some of the mistake i have made you guys are tough on people.
> Don if your happy and they did get a good job might well get *on* to making sawdust!


I am not all that upset about hiring them. One thing that I liked about them is they got here on time. We made an appointment for 8 AM and they were here at 8 on the dot. That is a pet pieve of mine. I believe people should do what they say they are going to do.

They did have to run two runs of romex at least 100'. But still I think it was to high. The real hard part about all of this is I never had to hire people to do anything around the house. I did it myself. I feal most of the guys on this forum do the same thing and fix it their self. It really sucks when you get where you can't do stuff your self. 

I have been burnt several times by getting moonlighters or want a be's to do work for me. I had really rather hire a good company to work for me and the job be done right than to hire a want a be and they mess it up.


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## ProCarpenterRVA (Oct 10, 2017)

hawkeye10 said:


> I had two 110 circuits put in today as I really needed them bad. I have tripped a breaker twice this week due to running an extra heater in my shop. It's not often that it gets this cold and stays cold here in middle Tennessee. Most of the time the one small heater will keep about 65* and that is fine with me but it's been getting down in the lower 50's at night with the one heater running. I am afraid to run the other heater at night because it's not a quality heater.
> 
> Now here is the bad part. I wanted to run a circuit for 220 volt but the cost was to high. The price for running the two 110 circuits was $1384.00. To install a 220 circuit would have been $692.00 more. :crying:
> 
> There goes my drum sander I have been wanting. :crying:


If you had told me that story in a bar I would have beaten you until you gave me the name and address of the electrician so I could go beat him

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## coyote7 (Jan 5, 2018)

I'm a licensed electrician and $300 sounds like a normal price to me. I'm retired but keep my license up to date just to help others. Investing the rewards in Heaven.


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## hawkeye10 (Jul 28, 2015)

ProCarpenterRVA said:


> If you had told me that story in a bar I would have beaten you until you gave me the name and address of the electrician so I could go beat him
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk



:laugh2: I have a hand gun carry permit. Don't get excited I wouldn't use a gun I would run. :crying:


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## wags999 (Nov 6, 2013)

If you ran two 20 amp 110 lines or one 20 amp 240 line, the 240 line should be less money as it uses a common neutral. You run the 4 wire romex (ground, neutral and two hots and then split into two circuits in the garage, each 20 (or whatever wire you run) amps... 

I was a licensed electrician and even today those numbers are outrageous. 

Did they wear a little mask when they did the job?  

I agree, time to move on, but take it as a lesson, never again. 

Enjoy the warmth !


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## Knothead47 (Feb 10, 2010)

When I worked in electrical at Lowe's, one of the guys was the "pro" and said after 100 feet, there would be some voltage drop. He always recommended going to the next heavier wire. You are right at the edge. Personally, I would err on the side of caution in this case. Comments?


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## wags999 (Nov 6, 2013)

Knothead47 said:


> When I worked in electrical at Lowe's, one of the guys was the "pro" and said after 100 feet, there would be some voltage drop. He always recommended going to the next heavier wire. You are right at the edge. Personally, I would err on the side of caution in this case. Comments?


At 100 ft with a maximum load you would have a voltage drop of about 6 volts, not enough to cause an issue. If less draw you would have less voltage drop. 

It would not hurt to have installed a #10 vs #12 wire on a 20 amp circuit, if you feel you will be running close to max amp draw.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

In BC they suggest increase wire size at 75' but I'm sure Wags number is correct.


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## Knothead47 (Feb 10, 2010)

My grandfather said- Little bit good, whole lot better.
A bit off topic but following the idea of wire size. The "pro" who was a licensed electrician and now has his own business couldn't understand why houses were wired with #14 for the overhead lights and #12 everywhere else. His opinion was make it all the same, even if not required. Why carry more wire in the truck? I have to agree with him.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

That went right by me(?), John. A 15Amp cct. is a 15Amp cct., lights or plugs are irrelevant other than you can pretty much determine ahead of time what the actual _ lighting_ load will be. Our Canadian Electrical code encourages mixed loads on ccts., other than dedicated ccts.
Electrical Contractors use #14 cable because it's _less expensive_, lighter and easier to work with. If you're putting in a competitive bid why would you use pricier material unless there was a substantial labour saving or the client/Architect/Engineer called for the specific upgrade?
Also, you can't mix wire gauges on the same cct., with a few very specific exceptions. I often use #12 on 15Amp ccts. if I'm putting in a dedicated receptacle. It means that I have the option of upgrading to a 20Amp cct. brker later.


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## wags999 (Nov 6, 2013)

In my past life (retired now) when we were doing a service change IE replacing a 60 amp panel typically to a 200 amp panel, it was legal under the code to replace 15 amp fuses with 20 amp breakers utilizing the 14 ga wire. That being said, I always used 12 ga even on 14 ga for the reasons said above. At that time the cost of the wire difference was not a big deal. It was easier to just carry #12 for all standard circuits. We also always used THHN which allows more wires in the same size box or conduit. Yes everything was in conduit no romex allowed. 

I really enjoyed electric work since it is very logical...in it's layout etc. It was an interesting time, since most of the homes were built shortly after the war, no AC 4 or 6 fuses on a 60 amp panel. We did work for a number of HVAC companies including Sears who were huge back then. We would put in 100 amp, 20 circuit panels or 200 amp 40 circuit panels, mostly went from overhead to underground as the local electric company was really promoting the underground service. The service panel was only half the answer...it didn't do anything for the circuits inside the home, only brought more into the house. 

Guess this thread has gotten a little off topic LOL


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## hawkeye10 (Jul 28, 2015)

wags said:


> In my past life (retired now) when we were doing a service change IE replacing a 60 amp panel typically to a 200 amp panel, it was legal under the code to replace 15 amp fuses with 20 amp breakers utilizing the 14 ga wire. That being said, I always used 12 ga even on 14 ga for the reasons said above. At that time the cost of the wire difference was not a big deal. It was easier to just carry #12 for all standard circuits. We also always used THHN which allows more wires in the same size box or conduit. Yes everything was in conduit no romex allowed.
> 
> I really enjoyed electric work since it is very logical...in it's layout etc. It was an interesting time, since most of the homes were built shortly after the war, no AC 4 or 6 fuses on a 60 amp panel. We did work for a number of HVAC companies including Sears who were huge back then. We would put in 100 amp, 20 circuit panels or 200 amp 40 circuit panels, mostly went from overhead to underground as the local electric company was really promoting the underground service. The service panel was only half the answer...it didn't do anything for the circuits inside the home, only brought more into the house.
> 
> Guess this thread has gotten a little off topic LOL


It may be off topic but I am learning a little something and it's intresting. 
:smile:


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

On another thread that Dan started a self help book published by P. S. Knight, a former government electrical inspector here in Canada, said that 12 gauge wire wasn't meant to be used in normal runs. I learned to wire from his books and I suspect Dan did too. Here is a quote from book #1 "based on the 15th Edition of Canadian Electrical Code and B.C. Amendments (this is back to about 1975 give or take). "Use only #14 wire unless your runs are unusually long, say more than 30 metres (approx. 100 feet) long. The #12 wire is stiff. It can cause excessive strain on the switch and receptacle terminals." I've heard that from other sources too that #12 wire wasn't designed to be bent around the terminals on a standard switch or receptacle. The bend is too tight and it can result in metal fatigue in the wire. Not that it can't be done with success but the question then becomes what is the failure rate between using #14 and using #12 under those circumstances and is the risk acceptable? That is something I don't have the answer to.


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## wags999 (Nov 6, 2013)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> On another thread that Dan started a self help book published by P. S. Knight, a former government electrical inspector here in Canada, said that 12 gauge wire wasn't meant to be used in normal runs. I learned to wire from his books and I suspect Dan did too. Here is a quote from book #1 "based on the 15th Edition of Canadian Electrical Code and B.C. Amendments (this is back to about 1975 give or take). "Use only #14 wire unless your runs are unusually long, say more than 30 metres (approx. 100 feet) long. The #12 wire is stiff. It can cause excessive strain on the switch and receptacle terminals." I've heard that from other sources too that #12 wire wasn't designed to be bent around the terminals on a standard switch or receptacle. The bend is too tight and it can result in metal fatigue in the wire. Not that it can't be done with success but the question then becomes what is the failure rate between using #14 and using #12 under those circumstances and is the risk acceptable? That is something I don't have the answer to.


I used THHN #12 stranded not solid. Pulls easier and the THHN insulation is better. Yes #12 solid can get a tad difficult to pull if you have a lot of bends, but the stranded pulls great, and is not subject to all the other issues you mentioned. Yes it costs a few cents more but typically labor is a bigger cost than the material. We of course could not use romex and everything was in metal conduit.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

I'm curious, Tom (wags). Where and when was 'Romex', or 'Non-Metallic Sheathed Cable' not allowed? Why?
It's introduction up here must have been in the '50s(?). It replaced armoured cable rather quickly, based on ease of use and cost.


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## wags999 (Nov 6, 2013)

DaninVan said:


> I'm curious, Tom (wags). Where and when was 'Romex', or 'Non-Metallic Sheathed Cable' not allowed? Why?
> It's introduction up here must have been in the '50s(?). It replaced armoured cable rather quickly, based on ease of use and cost.


In Cook Cty Illinois, (Chicago Area) Romex I believe is still not allowed..reason. Unions.. Same as PVC pipe was not allowed until maybe 20 years ago and then only in buildings less than 3 stories high. Everything had to be run in conduit and plumbing in Copper or cast iron. 

There are good reasons why a conduit job is better.. IE ability to pull additional lines later, mechanical protection of the circuits etc. Also the whole system is grounded through the conduit. It was a PIA but, it did have the side effect of killing the DIY market as to electrical work. 

I was not a licensed plumber but did a lot of plumbing. When I added an upstairs on my own home, I did the plumbing. When the inspector came out he said who did it, when I said I did, he said it's too good you didn't do it. He made me jump through hoops to get a C/O. I had to cut the wall downstairs in the main stack and put a test plug in. And water test the whole upstairs, which passed with no issues. 

Unions are very strong, they control the politicians (which is why I do NOT live in Illinois or any Dem controlled state). 

I will check but I do not believe they allow Pex in any application for the same reason.. of course they always give some BS reason, you know, ,safety of the public, to protect etc etc etc.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

I'm gobsmacked, Tom. That's crazy in this day and age. Especially the PEX part. 
I can't say anything political but your msg. came through loud and clear...not like we don't have some similar issues up here in some jurisdictions.


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## hawkeye10 (Jul 28, 2015)

wags said:


> In Cook Cty Illinois, (Chicago Area) Romex I believe is still not allowed..reason. Unions.. Same as PVC pipe was not allowed until maybe 20 years ago and then only in buildings less than 3 stories high. Everything had to be run in conduit and plumbing in Copper or cast iron.
> 
> There are good reasons why a conduit job is better.. IE ability to pull additional lines later, mechanical protection of the circuits etc. Also the whole system is grounded through the conduit. It was a PIA but, it did have the side effect of killing the DIY market as to electrical work.
> 
> ...



Things are changing for the better. :smile: I hope.


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## Mycrossover (Dec 29, 2017)

Garyk said:


> Unless there was no easy access to the space the wire was run through the price was *outrageous*. As far as the heaters; small electric heaters are real energy hogs and usually pull between 1500 to 1800 watts. Having two on the same circuit will most likely pop the circuit breaker. If you have more than one breaker controlling the shop outlets move one heater to the other circuit and that should work. Running the 110 circuit is not rocket science, my daughter and I wired my whole shop which was inspected and approved (disclaimer: neither of us is an electrician BUT we both have experience (Navy electronics school for me-- extensive remodeling experience for her) and we *always have an electrician check our work*). I DO NOT RECOMMEND DOING YOUR OWN UNLESS YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING, AMPERAGE EVEN WITH LOW VOLTAGE CAN KILL YOU !!
> 
> In a small shop I prefer using my BUDDY heater. It doesn't use that much propane and gas is always faster than electricity.


I tried a kero. heater in my 2 car garage. I had a side door open and an overhead door partially open. Instant CO headache. By the time I was getting enough air to not get sick, the garage was wide open and the heater was useless. I don't know if propane is any better. I returned mine to HD. I would stick to electric or gas with proper outside exhaust or a mini split, if I had the cash.

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