# Festool



## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

So what do you guys think of the Festool OF 2200 EB Router and Base Accessory Kit?


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

In a word, expensive! :lol:

Very nice piece of kit, but for one of those I could buy two of anything else, and I know what I'd rather have

Regards

Phil


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## PRDarnell (Mar 21, 2012)

And what would that be, Phil?

Paul


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## pretender74 (May 27, 2011)

I'm with Phil in U.K. Festool is nice but they are way to proud of their product. Gary/Florida


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## Jofuss 55 (Oct 17, 2011)

This is the biggest and best of the Festool routers. Like the plant in the Little Shop of Horrors, the more work you give this beast, the more says "Feed me". It's comfortable to use for long periods of time without tiring the operator.


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## bcfunburst (Jan 14, 2012)

*Personal Thoughts on Festool*

I have not used any of the line of Festools and they might be the very best of all!
However, as a hobbiest I cannot justify spending that kind of money on any one tool.
I do NOT believe in going cheap on anything but I do believe Festool is way out of line on their prices for the average Joe.


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

I do not drink the green Kool-aid. Nice tools at twice the cost of anything else.


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

PRDarnell said:


> And what would that be, Phil?


Hi Paul

That would be *two* Trend T11s, Paul. I have used the close relative of the T11 (the Elu MOF177 and deWalt DW625 - European built) for many years and they are extremely capable machines. Granted they don't have the micrometer accuracy of an OF2200, but we are woodworkers, after all - and wood isn't metal. The ergonomics of the OF2200 are very good, but many other routers aren't that far behind and I found the OF2200 to be bulky and tall when I tried it out. Festool can say it's the quietest router in it's class - but more of the noise in routing is generated by the cutter than the motor IMHO. It may have the best dust extraction, but that comes at the cost of a hose which can get in your way at times. With two routers I can run two set-ups, I have a backup if one of my routers is down (not a common experience) or two of us can be doing jobs simultaneously........ That plus stumping up £1023 here in the UK which I find hard to swallow - I can almost buy a secondhand pin router, a more versatile tool altogether, for that sort of money.



Jofuss 55 said:


> Like the plant in the Little Shop of Horrors, the more work you give this beast, the more says "Feed me".


Have you ever used any 2kw routers for extended periods? You could say the same about almost any 2kw router over a smaller 1/2in router. One real test of a big router is Corian - on that the Festool was slightly faster than a 2000 watt DW625, but no better than a Makita RP2301FCX. The only advantage it had was the dust extraction was better. If you want the absolute in hand held power try the Mafell LO65ec - 2.6kw and noticeably more powerful than the Festool. But a half decent pin router knocks all of them into a cocked hat. 



bcfunburst said:


> I have not used any of the line of Festools and they might be the very best of all!
> ...... I do believe Festool is way out of line on their prices for the average Joe.


I own some Festool kit. It is expensive, but it is very competent. Nowadays I wouldn't be without my TS55 (rail saw) but there are now a number of alternatives, some cheaper, which offer the same level of functionality and quality of cut edge (e.g. the Makita SP6000K1). Festool probably make the best ROSs around for woodworking - the RTS150/3 and ETS150/5 - they are light and have excellent extraction - similarly the Rotex is a brilliant sander for doing solid surface work, although a Ceros is probably even better as it is smaller, lighter and can be used one handed (the downside is that you need to buy a separate polisher if you go the Ceros route). The new Festool Carvex jigsaws, however, aren't a sufficient improvement on the Bosch GST140BCE (JS572 in the USA) to justify a price tag about 50% higher, neither are Festool's belt sanders (which are good, they are after all ex-Holz-Her designs), which are no great improvement over Makita or Bosch offerings, but are 1.5 times the price, or more. Having tried one (one day test drive) the same applies to the big router IMHO. Not enough extra bangs for your buck.

Regards

Phil

Who hasn't gotten drunk on green Kool-Aid so far


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

What if price were no object and you wanted a *portable* plunge router? Some projects are not conducive to pin routers or router tables.


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Phil, please jump in with the euro model number of the Bosch MRC23EVSK.


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## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

If you are looking for an excuse and have the money to burn, buy the Festool. Otherwise, there are fine routers available for a LOT less money that will serve you well.
That's my humble opinion!


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Mike said:


> Phil, please jump in with the euro model number of the Bosch MRC23EVSK.


Hi Mike

I believe it's called the GMF1600 over here, although you 'murricans probably won't like the price (which BTW includes 20% sales tax, so £420 times 100/120 times 1.65 to get dollars = $580 ish)



Marcel M said:


> What if price were no object and you wanted a *portable* plunge router? Some projects are not conducive to pin routers or router tables.


Hi Marcel

With respect I live in the real world where I have to earn the money I spend on my routers and my routers all have to earn their keep, so the comment about pin routers was a real one _for me_. In reality _if_ there were a situation where I _absolutely needed_ the OF2200 and I couldn't do a job without it, and no other router could do the job, then, and only then I'd sell the house and buy one. It's just that I can't envisage that situation ever happening because there are always work arounds. 

So if we're talking fantasy, then yes, the OF2200 is a very high spec router, but I might still opt for either the Virutex FRE317S tilting base plunge router because that can do things the Festool just can't or possibly the massively powerful Mafell LO65ec (here in the USA) which has enough power (2600 watts as opposed to the Festool's piffling 2200 watts) to do stuff like Arunda construction dovetails. Take a look at this video and this one to see what I mean. With that amount of power it would be a natural for stair housings and heavy joinery work

Look at those two alternatives carefully and ask yourself if they aren't equally persuasive pieces of kit

Regards 

Phil


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

*Eating Bon Bons in the land of OZ*

Phil,
Currently I am routing 6" X 1 3/8" deep dadoes in 6"X6" timbers so my question is a valid one in the *real* world. Your suggestions are noted.
Marcel


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## TomE (Dec 17, 2010)

Marcel M said:


> Currently I am routing 6" X 1 3/8" deep dadoes in 6"X6" timbers.
> Marcel


Don't know your specific project but if you're just notching timbers for simple joining then a circular saw and a sharp chisel(slick) will do the trick.

If production setup is needed then using a router with a jig/straight bit to clean out a roughed notch (again with a circular saw and chisel) then most any decent router will handle it. 

I've drunk plenty of the green koolaid but I find that my ol' Porter Cable 7539 handles the big stuff just fine(sans the dust control) so no need for the big Festo here.


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Marcel M said:


> Currently I am routing 6" X 1 3/8" deep dadoes in 6"X6" timbers so my question is a valid one in the *real* world. Your suggestions are noted.


Hi Marcel

I'm having a bit of difficulty with your terminology here, because here in the UK use don't use the term "dado" other than in "dado head" (and even then the "correct" trade term is "trenchng head"). We generally take it to mean a groove worked across the face of a piece of timber, or what we call a "housing joint", but I've seen the term used to describe a rebate as well. What exactly do _you_ mean by a dado? From the description I'm envisioning either a through or possibly a blind mortise, or do you mean a stopped rebate, the sort of thing you'd use if you are framing out in the traditional "cogged joint" ? Sorry to be pedantic, but for any of those I still can't see a need for the Festool router

Regards

Phil


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

That would be a Housing Joint.
I do not own any Festool products but recently saw a video on YouTube showing how the OF 2200 EB Router and Base Accessory Kit operated and more importantly how well engineered it seemed to be. Unlike my Makita 3612BR the base and guide bushings changes are quick and easy there is a micro-adjustment with a pointer for height that can be zeroed out. Ergonomically it is better for and more conducive to routing against the fence because of its angular position in relation to the fence. The hand controls are well thought-out with all key controls where you can easily reach them. The ratchet bit tightening makes it easier than mine because you don't have to re-position the wrench on each turn. Chip and dust removal is integral in the product design and not an after thought (does mine even have a chip and dust removal set up?) No collet bushings (a pet peeve of mine) it uses 3 collets and collets hold on to shafts better than bushings and with less run-out. I also like the fact that the router and all accessories can be brought on the job site in only two fitted cases and can be carried together as well. Everything that you need to do any job on site without hunting around. One minus is that there is no work light-----how did they miss that? So what do you think?


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Hi Marcel



Marcel M said:


> Unlike my Makita 3612BR the base and guide bushings changes are quick and easy there is a micro-adjustment with a pointer for height that can be zeroed out


I tend to find that I'm using two or three bushing sizes - mainly 16mm and 30mm for 90% of the guide bush work I do. I've never had to swap around that much - but then I tend to have two routers set-up when I need to that sort of approach. My DW625 (MOF177e) has depth settings which can be zeroed out, but it's far too inaccurate to use any scale that way - far better to plunge the cutter onto the work surface, lock the plunge then set the depth flag with a setting block (we get these nice plastic packers over here in 1mm increment for door casings and windows) or for hinge/hardware recesses, etc just use the hardware itself between the flag post and the turret depth stop and plunge to full depth when making the cut. The DW625 I find excellent for this because the "flag" actiually has a threaded anvil on the bottom making it a doddle to make minor corrections to deoth of cut - not a bew design, either, the MOF177 (now called DW625) appeared nearly 30 years ago. Yes, I'm a traditionalist in some ways - I'll make and use a rod very often rather than a tape. I KNOW which is more accurate



Marcel M said:


> Ergonomically it is better for and more conducive to routing against the fence because of its angular position in relation to the fence.


But how many hours will you have to use a router for that benefit to be apparent?



Marcel M said:


> The hand controls are well thought-out with all key controls where you can easily reach them


I have no complaints about the vast majority of deWalt and Bosch plungers I've used over the last 30 years in that respect. I didn't find the OF2200 to be that much better



Marcel M said:


> The ratchet bit tightening makes it easier than mine because you don't have to re-position the wrench on each turn.


At last an advantage! I use to have an OF1400 with that feature. To me it isn't a deal breaker because a cutter tends to be installed for a few hours (or longer) and I also tend to leave commonly used cutters installed in the router at the end of a session. Nice, but hardly essential



Marcel M said:


> Chip and dust removal is integral in the product design and not an after thought


Try a DW621 (or in Europe also the DW622) - much cheaper and really good extraction. My DW622 has all but replaced my smaller Festool for site work. The OF2200 has exactly the same issues as the DW625 when it comes to extraction on deep pocket routing (a common task for me - lock mortise slots) - the hose and other gubbins tend to get in the way and hoses happen to be a ruddy nuisance to have to drag round behind you, despite the obvious health benefits.



Marcel M said:


> No collet bushings (a pet peeve of mine) it uses 3 collets and collets hold on to shafts better than bushings and with less run-out.


And something which irks me, too. All European-designed routers I'm aware of have the same concept of a multi-groove, double taper collet in a full range of sizes. Bet you didn't know that Festool use the same collets as the DW625? Or that the self-same collets also fit the Mafell LO65, Trend T10/T11, older Elus (MOF77/MOF98 and MOF177 aka the 3338/3339 in the USA), Freud FT2000/FT2200, etc? That collet design first appeared on routers in the 1970s (Elu Elu MOF98). Shows how good the design is. Bosch use a similar (but slightly different and equally good) design for their GOF2000 (169oEVS in the USA, these collets also fits the earlier GOF1700ACE/GOF1600A or 1615EVS/1615 in the USA). And run-out? We're talking about a hand router here, not a CNC router. Is it really going to make that amount of difference? To me that is just another green (Festool red) herring.



Marcel M said:


> I also like the fact that the router and all accessories can be brought on the job site in only two fitted cases and can be carried together as well. Everything that you need to do any job on site without hunting around


I carry more than half my kit around in Systainers including my router cutters (and the collection is growing steadily). They are good, but they aren't unique to Festool, although I have to admit the T-Loc versions are even better than the originals. Mafell, Lamello and Metabo also supply part of their respective ranges in Systainers - even Makita ship the SP6000K saw in one in Europew. Bosch in Europe has opted for the L-Boxx, another commercial box system with the same aim, and late last year deWalt followed suit with their take on the system box concept. I don't think that any one is mecessarily better than another - it's just that I started on the Festool system a few years back and now it's compatibility I'm driven by



Marcel M said:


> One minus is that there is no work light-----how did they miss that?


Oh, dearie me, tsk, tsk 



Marcel M said:


> So what do you think?


I think the same as when we started. I already own some Festool stuff, I trialled an OF2200 for a day a while back, and my opinion is unchanged. It's too expensive for what few advantages it has to offer over existing designs. It is evolutionary, not revolutionary. To put that comment in context I've used mainly plunge routers since the late 1970s/early 1980s and I settled on what was a mature design when it appeared, the MOF177e (DW625) as my go to router many years ago. Sadly I don't think that the OF2200 ist 30 years better. 

Oh, and I think you've already sold yourself on the idea of having one in any case! If you do get one, keep a sharp lookout on it when on site. Stuff like that tends to grow legs.........

Regards

Phil


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

Thank you for your insight Phil. The cost is high and no I'm not sold yet. That why I wanted input from people that use these machines far more than I do. I just wanted to discuss design point by point and wanted to know if another manufacturer has addressed all of these points as well and for a lower price.


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Marcel, no one router is right for everyone. To complicate things even more companies use different model and part numbers in many countries. Even though all routers perform the same funtions the controls vary in how they work. The best advice you will ever get is to hold each model you are considering in your hands and compare for yourself. What feels best to me is different than what feels right to Phil or you. You are the one who will be using it and you are the one who must be happy with it. With that said I would like to point out that the Bosch GMF1600 has a full 3" plunge depth, the most of any router I am aware of. That is a very usefull feature. When it is plugged in the LED worklights are always on; that is a great reminder to always unplug while doing set ups or bit changes. They also aid in positioning your router before starting it. Just a couple of points I think you should consider. Good luck on your decision, let us know how it works out.


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

Those are great points Mike.


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

Tom,
Yes your production method would work as well. Thank you for your router suggestion.


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

*Arunda Dovetails*



Phil P said:


> Hi Mike
> 
> I believe it's called the GMF1600 over here, although you 'murricans probably won't like the price (which BTW includes 20% sales tax, so £420 times 100/120 times 1.65 to get dollars = $580 ish)
> 
> ...


Beautiful heavy timber joinery. When assembling do you think that they would glue them in place or leave them to slide past each other as the building shifts?


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Hi Marcel



Phil P said:


> Arunda construction dovetails





Marcel M said:


> Beautiful heavy timber joinery. When assembling do you think that they would glue them in place or leave them to slide past each other as the building shifts?


I reckon they'd leave them unglued - in places where you get hurricanes it might be as well to secure through the joint somehow with metal (e.g. long screw skewed through the cross beam into the long beam) to prevent lifting if you get negative g forces. The weight of the timbers alone will lock the tapered joints together and glueing end grain to long grain is only going to result in a failed joint over the years

Regards

Phil


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## mjdorsam (Nov 27, 2011)

I own 'selective' Festool equipment - not a kool-aid drinker; however, the Domino is unique, and the Festool system (track system, MFT) are down payments for the longer term. 

Regarding the OF2200, I see this as a solution looking for a problem; in that, it's almost too heavy and powerful to use hand-held, which means you need the track system; otherwise the OF1400 is the preferred choice - the sweet spot within the Router industry. The unique features of the 2200 (the captive collar for dust collection, and others) benefit from it's size; and are not sufficient for me to open the wallet that much more.

Even if the router was the same price as the 1400, I'm not sure I'd want to muscle the weight on a router-centric project.

Festool has brought precision and creative engineering into the woodworking tool industry - a needed energy within mega-manufacturers (Stanley/Dewalt, with Porter-Cable, B&D, Skil, Dewalt) making clones of themselves with cheaper materials and rougher castings. However, I believe Festool has priced itself out of the prosumer market; and is primarily focused on production shops - who else can afford $1,100 for a Domino Systainer package, or approximately the same for the OF2200 (who else would need a 2200 watt machine? Great Stuff, but clearly focused on those who can afford it.
MJCD


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## dukebeau (Apr 4, 2006)

I own a lot of Festool. Over the years, I have replaced almost all my power hand tools with theirs. Expensive? Well that depends on how you look at it. If you appreciate the system they offer and the knowledge there won't be a need to upgrade to a better caliber of tool, then it is truly beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I spent an insane amount on their T15 drill set but I smile everytime I pick it up and use the extremely fast centrotec bit change system or use the right angle attachment when nothing else will work. These things are tough, too and I have dropped it several times and it has come out no worse for wear. The dust collection on the routers and plunge saws are worth the price of admission. Expensive, yes but well worth it IMO when they make my projects easier and more accurate. Just sayin"...


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## mjdorsam (Nov 27, 2011)

Howard:

Excellent comments regarding Festool, and consistent with my usage; everything I've heard; and, everyone I've spoken with - I wish more owners could speak so kindly of their brands. My quibble is the price-premium, not the quality or innovation.
The trickle-down effect will benefit all of us - Bosch, and other top-tier companies, will mimic or momentarily trump Festool, and then everyone wins.


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

mjdorsam said:


> Bosch, and other top-tier companies, will mimic or momentarily trump Festool, and then everyone wins.


You think so, Mike? Remember that Bosch INVENTED the jigsaw - and that their current best offering, the GST140BCE offers advantages over the Festool product (the Carvex), but at a much lower price. Similarly the "all conquering" Kapex SCMS is nowhere near as robust - and therefore long-tern as accurate as, equivalent products from Bosch, Makita and deWalt (based on field iusage, trade environment). Also Festool cordless tools are nowhere near as robust as they should be for trade environments - and at trade prices they should be. Festool are clever marketeers, however, their products are often not as robust as they should be. I'm saying that as a Festool owner, too! Some innovations they have made are truly great - many are far too gimicky, and far too costly.

Regards

Phil


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## mjdorsam (Nov 27, 2011)

Phil:

We're seeing different sides of this - competition among the two best in the business. For all of Bosch's firsts & innovations, they punted badly on the new sliding compound miter saw - with poor quality control; and they have failed to fully develop and deploy an integrated system to support diverse tools - whereas Festool surcharges an arm-&-leg for integration engineering.
But this is not, and I won't get into, a discussion of which brand is the best, which product within each brand is the best, or the relative merits of "Value". For my part, 90% of my hand power tools are Bosch - so, this is where my value-equation maxes-out - unless you can utilize the Domino, or highly-value dust-collection-at-source - both of which Festool engineered.


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Hi Mike



mjdorsam said:


> We're seeing different sides of this - competition among the two best in the business


Not so sure I'd say they are the two best - I tend to buy based on what productivity gains are to be had, combined with durability - on those counts Makita do surprisingly well in my field.



mjdorsam said:


> For all of Bosch's firsts & innovations, they punted badly on the new sliding compound miter saw - with poor quality control


Thankfully over here in Europe we've had to wait for both Makita and Bosch to sort-out problems in their mitre saws before they released them here (in both cases more than a year). One plus is that we got products which worked and were accurate out of the box whilst US customers paid the cost of being "early adopters". We got the Festool Carvex here, but it's had a lot of teething problems with "free" upgrades, etc and you still don't have it in North America, do you? Similar pattern of events?



mjdorsam said:


> and they (Bosch) have failed to fully develop and deploy an integrated system to support diverse tools - whereas Festool surcharges an arm-&-leg for integration engineering


Exactly what system integration are we referring to, here? I'm not a user of Festool's over-priced multi-table, nor will I ever be in all probability. To me a lot of Festool's engineering in that area is just gimmick. System tables by their nature appeal to a very limited market. Is it the rail systems? Festool were the first - but everyone else has caught them up _over here_. I use Festool guide rails and saws and quite frankly Makitas offerings are almost as good but a lot cheaper, Maffell/Bosch products are better if more expensive. Only a few Festool products deliver any real advantages - the main advantage being better dust extraction in most cases (and even that crown is slipping) - but overall I'd say you can get equal or sometimes better products at a lower price by looking around the market (example: Mirka's palm sander vs. Festool Rotex)
.


mjdorsam said:


> unless you can utilize the Domino, or highly-value dust-collection-at-source - both of which Festool engineered.


If you realise that the Domino is really a cross between a router and a Maka oscillating mortiser (circa. 1957) and that Festool didn't invent dust extraction on portable power tools, but just improved it then their crown doesn't appear quite so shiney (I have a deWalt DW622 which started life as the Elu OF1 or OF97 back in the early 1980s which has better, integrated dust extraction than the similar period Festo OF900 plus some other advantages over Festool's offerings). 

Regards

Phil


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