# I don't mean to be controversial BUT:



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

I simply cannot understand why America still prefers potentially dangerous routers. I am of course referring to fixed base routers where a very sharp bit is protruding from the tool and rotating at 20,000 plus rpm., many without soft start. This compares to plunge routers that as soon as the downward pressure is released, the bit instantly returns to the safety of the housing. It seems to me to be the "it was good enough for my father so it's good enough for me" syndrome. Come on guys, think about the versatility of the plunge router and how it can do everything that a fixed base one can plus LOTS more.


----------



## Chris Curl (Feb 13, 2012)

"Prefers"? I'm not so sure that is accurate. And what information do you have that supports your claim that Americans only (and not people in other countries) prefer them over fixed base routers?


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

I base my remarks on my observations when reading posts on forums around the world. When I search for routers in America, the majority appear to be fixed base yet doing similar searches in other countries show the opposite. So perhaps "prefer" was not quite correct, perhaps I should have said something like "because in America the shops mainly seem to stock fixed base routers, I presume that newcomers to routing probably think that fixed base is the way to go" How's that Chris.


----------



## GulfcoastGuy (Feb 27, 2012)

I bought the Bosch 1617 kit with fixed and plunge bases. The fixed base is always attached to my table. I exclusively use the plunge base for manual work.

GCG


----------



## AndyL (Jun 3, 2011)

The evidence that America prefers fixed-base routers can be seen on the web sites of Lowe's and Home Depot. Roughly half their top 10 or so best selling full size routers are fixed base, and the rest are dual-base kits with fixed and plunge bases. Plunge only models don't start appearing until lower down.

In the UK (and I think Europe generally), the major retailers don't sell any fixed bases at all. If you go to the specialist tool suppliers' sites, the best sellers are plunge models, with some interchangeable-base models appearing lower down the list. As far as I can tell, no-one is trying to sell any fixed-base-only models here.

As Harry says it could simply be that American retailers _think_ their customers prefer fixed bases, and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy because they stock a poor choice of plunge models. But the free market works, right? If the customers wanted plunge-only routers they would sell them, or face losing market share to smaller suppliers who will. Conversely if the fixed-base only models didn't sell, they wouldn't be stocked.


----------



## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Harry

I take it that you don't have a D-Handel router,you should try one out I'm sure you would like..  D-Handle router get the mass of the router down unlike a plunge router...and gives you more control of the router sometimes you just need to get to the edge of the board.

Not to say anything about that many use it to put in a lift on a router table and only need the barrel type motor..for me I use it on a Horizon.router table and a plunge router is just more junk you don't need, and if I need a plunge router I have the base on hand to do so..
==



harrysin said:


> I simply cannot understand why America still prefers potentially dangerous routers. I am of course referring to fixed base routers where a very sharp bit is protruding from the tool and rotating at 20,000 plus rpm., many without soft start. This compares to plunge routers that as soon as the downward pressure is released, the bit instantly returns to the safety of the housing. It seems to me to be the "it was good enough for my father so it's good enough for me" syndrome. Come on guys, think about the versatility of the plunge router and how it can do everything that a fixed base one can plus LOTS more.


----------



## J. Leigh (Jul 15, 2012)

I learned long ago that if you are going to get involved with routers you are going to need more than one. That's why I have a high horsepower unit in my router table with a Woodpeckers lift, a D-handle router fixed base for freehand work and a plunge router for the more difficult/dangerous operations. 
Each has its place though I do see your point Harry, not much safety in leaving a sharp metal object exposed if you don't need to.


----------



## Chris Curl (Feb 13, 2012)

That is better, Harry. Thanks.

They both have their place.

Perhaps it is a simple situation where more people make router tables with them, and while a plunge router will also work in a table, a fixed base often makes more sense for an application like that.

I now have 3 plunge routers, and 3 fixed base routers. I would use plunge routers for hand routing (including skiis), and fixed base routers in tables or overhead or pantograph type applications.


----------



## kp91 (Sep 10, 2004)

It could simply be a matter of people buying the cheapest... a fixed based router is generaly cheaper to make, so it's cheaper to buy. a lot of DIY types are going to grab the cheapest tool that fills the bill.


----------



## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

*Lol*



harrysin said:


> I simply cannot understand why America still prefers potentially dangerous routers. I am of course referring to fixed base routers where a very sharp bit is protruding from the tool and rotating at 20,000 plus rpm., many without soft start. This compares to plunge routers that as soon as the downward pressure is released, the bit instantly returns to the safety of the housing. It seems to me to be the "it was good enough for my father so it's good enough for me" syndrome. Come on guys, think about the versatility of the plunge router and how it can do everything that a fixed base one can plus LOTS more.


Really Harry, you don't want to be controversial? Since when? You seem to enjoy stirring the pot. :dance3:


----------



## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Harry, are you suggesting people quit using router tables? Fixed or plunge base the bit is exposed the same way in a router table. Fixed bases usually have more stability than plunge bases. The highly popular combo kits offer an inexpensive way to have the best of both types.

Don't be a "Tom"! :sarcastic:


----------



## Chris Curl (Feb 13, 2012)

heh, i love it ...

i don't mean to be controversial, but let me just say something that will stir things up ...


----------



## N'awlins77 (Feb 25, 2011)

My fixed base as well, has not seen the light of day, out from under my table. All hand held work is done with the plunge!


----------



## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

AndyL said:


> In the UK (and I think Europe generally), the major retailers don't sell any fixed bases at all. As far as I can tell, no-one is trying to sell any fixed-base-only models here.


Hi Andy

I can only agree with you there. Plungers are intrinsically safer for portable/hand routing (because the cutter retracts) and can be used for jobs that fixed base routers can't do without risk such as mortising, shallow templated cut-outs, ets as well as being faster in use on tasks such as multi-pass routing where the depth is incremental (think kitchen worktop jointing jigs, etc). I can recall in the late 1960s that plunge routers were a rarity - Stanley had only one or possibly two models whilst Porter Cable, Black & Decker and Ingersoll-Rand routers available in the UK were all fixed base. The tool which changed the market was the Elu MOF31 (c.1965) - the first truly modern plunger (note the on-off switch by the right hand, plunge lock by the left hand):










In those days the majority of sales (in Europe) were to trade joiners and the advantages to a tradesman of the plunge base were so obvious that Elu pretty much turned the market on it's head (and captured a sizeable portion of it in the UK not to mention the rest of Western Europe). By the mid to late 1970s this led to the introduction of Makita, Ryobi and Hitachi plungers to the UK market - and the total demise of the fixed-base makes - whilst firms like Bosch, AEG, Metabo, etc (even B&D Europe with the British designed DN66) saw market opportunities in selling low-cost plunge routers of 500 to 600 watts



Mike said:


> Harry, are you suggesting people quit using router tables? Fixed or plunge base the bit is exposed the same way in a router table. Fixed bases usually have more stability than plunge bases. The highly popular combo kits offer an inexpensive way to have the best of both types.


Hi Mike

True, fixed base routers can have advantages in router tables, but, I'd question your assertion that fixed base routers are more stable in hand held use. I've rarely experienced any plunge router tipping in use - to date, that is. They probably feel insecure and/or unstable to anyone used to a fixed base router, but I feel that is offset by the better view you get of the work, and the ability to speedily make multiple passes at different depths, not as fast or easy to do with a fixed base router. As to the combo kits, I just don't think they have enough power for heavy work - to me they are compromises. I find tools like the deWalt DW621 lighter and easier to use in many cases than a P-C or Bosch combo and of similar power output



kp91 said:


> It could simply be a matter of people buying the cheapest... a fixed based router is generaly cheaper to make, so it's cheaper to buy. a lot of DIY types are going to grab the cheapest tool that fills the bill.


Hi Doug

That's got to be the answer - lowest price. But the question I have to ask is, "What do the pros use in the USA?"

I still think that Harry's right on this one. But then my profile shows that I'm biased!

Regards

Phil


----------



## Gene Howe (Jul 10, 2007)

Well, let me humbly proclaim my vast lack of knowledge.
I had no idea that users in the U.S. preferred fixed based routers. 
Why, is the question. Probably because of the price difference. Then, I'm sure that there are industrial applications where a plunge base would not be necessary. 
For hand held use, I couldn't be without the plunge base.


----------



## Idonno (Mar 19, 2012)

Well, as far as the danger goes I hardly consider my fixed base routers to be among the more dangerous tools in my shop and yes I do still have all portions of all ten fingers.

Besides my most recent acquisition that I have yet to try out I have 2 plunge routers and 2 that are fixed base.

Of these four 1 - 3.25hp plunge router is mounted in a stationary router table and 1 - 2hp fixed base router is mounted in a portable router table.

For hand use I have a DeWALT DW621K 2 HP VS Electronic Plunge Router and a DeWALT DW610K Router 1.5HP fixed base router W/rack and pinion height adjustment. The 621 is a great plunge router but, I often prefer the smaller size, lower center of gravity and the rack and pinion height adjustment of the 610.

They both have their place and IMHO any added danger is a non-issue. I didn't reach 55yrs of age with all 10 fingers by being careless.


----------



## billg71 (Mar 25, 2011)

_*"I don't mean to be controversial BUT:"*_

ROFLMAO!!!! Good one, Harry!

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


----------



## L Town Graphics (May 24, 2012)

Harry if I was to give a response to the OP I would say generally speaking most people are using table routers opposed to freehand work. Don't quote me on it because I could very well be wrong. My father owns a router as well as a router table and until I asked him about routing I had never in my 34 years on earth seen him use one.


----------



## OutoftheWoodwork (Oct 4, 2012)

Mike said:


> Harry, are you suggesting people quit using router tables? Fixed or plunge base the bit is exposed the same way in a router table. Fixed bases usually have more stability than plunge bases. The highly popular combo kits offer an inexpensive way to have the best of both types.
> 
> Don't be a "Tom"! :sarcastic:


Thank you, Mike. That's how I feel with my fixed base. (They feel more stable). And while all my full-size routers are fixed, I had a plunge on my little router, which I found was quirky, sticky, (didn't adjust smoothly) and I always felt I had to crank on it to get it to stay in place, which because of this, I ended up striping it (I was told the other day) so now it sits under the work bench, collecting dust (no pun intended) lol. Which, I have to add, I hate, because size and weight wise, I really liked that little machine. Made it so much easier on my wrists and hands. (secretary wrists... they're 20 years older than I am lol)

With my trim router now out of commission, I'm back to using my P100 (you know, the one that weighs 50 lbs) and my Craftsman who-knows-what-model as my two main machines. With basic shop safety rules, if not just that hint of caution in the back of your mind, and just plain common sense in general, you shouldn't be worried about the shank sticking out. Anybody in their right mind isn't going to just go throwing the thing around where it can catch or cut someone or something when setting it down. No one should ever lose that small amount of fear/caution when dealing with machines. Once you lose that fear, which gives you caution to handle with care, is when you get careless, and get hurt. While I love my power tools, and love what I can do with them, every time I go to use them, I still have that tiny pang of caution in the back of my mind, which makes me respect them, and take extra care when using them.


----------



## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Harry- 

Yes you do. You do like to stir things up don't you?

I use both base styles. I don't keep track of what I use more or less. I don't really have a preference except in what I'm doing at the time / for what purpose needs to be done. You know, the right tool for the job at hand.

Sorry, that I couldn't add to any controversy in my answer.


----------



## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Barb, I am willing to bet a nickel cash money that you like the feel of this router. :sarcastic:


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Well, well, well, ME being accused of being controversial! But seriously guys, so far as potential danger is concerned with fixed base routers, it isn't just fingers that are in danger but one's torso being ripped open. Just visualise a fixed speed fixed base router laying on it's side on the bench with 2" of bit protruding and it's power switch on, The power plug has been correctly removed whilst the bit was fitted. Now the plug is inserted into the power point and the router flies off the bench!
As for ease of height adjustment when below the table, most plunge routers need only one hand beneath the bench for course or micro adjustment whereas fixed base in all the many demonstrations that I've witnessed require either lifting the router out of the table or using two hands.
My hope is that forum members new to routing will take note from not only my opinions but also those from so many members who have responded to this post. If all future routers were to be fixed base, routing would go back to the last century, whereas if they were all to be of the plunge type, it would be a big step for mankind!
I have to say that I am surprised that health and safety, worksafe etc. organisations haven't had the potential dangers inherent with fixed base routers brought to their attention, if it were to be it wouldn't surprise me if laws were brought in around the world phasing out these routers. This quite easily could lead to manufacturers and sellers offering big trade-in deals which of course would have the dual effect of removing fixed base routers and give impetus to the sale of plunge routers.
There now, nothing controversial there!


----------



## OutoftheWoodwork (Oct 4, 2012)

Mike said:


> Barb, I am willing to bet a nickel cash money that you like the feel of this router. :sarcastic:


Mike, this is gonna sound SO snobbish, so please forgive me... (gonna show my lack of knowledge now) but Bosch looks SO cheap, like it wont hold up??? Kinda like the bit from Porter Cable I got; it was AWEFUL! It grabbed the wood and left lots of frayed edges. (See? Told you it would sound snobby lol)

I guess because I don't know the brand (cuz I'm probably way off base on this opinion) I should look at it more closely. I'm just so afraid of getting a dud that wont be compatible with me - I'm beyond frugle with cash these days. Can't afford to get one right now anyway (will have to wait till I have a job) but I'll see what I can find out as to it's rating in performance and reliablility.


----------



## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

harrysin said:


> Well, well, well, ME being accused of being controversial! But seriously guys, so far as potential danger is concerned with fixed base routers, it isn't just fingers that are in danger but one's torso being ripped open. Just visualise a fixed speed fixed base router laying on it's side on the bench with 2" of bit protruding and it's power switch on, The power plug has been correctly removed whilst the bit was fitted. Now the plug is inserted into the power point and the router flies off the bench!
> As for ease of height adjustment when below the table, most plunge routers need only one hand beneath the bench for course or micro adjustment whereas fixed base in all the many demonstrations that I've witnessed require either lifting the router out of the table or using two hands.
> My hope is that forum members new to routing will take note from not only my opinions but also those from so many members who have responded to this post. If all future routers were to be fixed base, routing would go back to the last century, whereas if they were all to be of the plunge type, it would be a big step for mankind!
> I have to say that I am surprised that health and safety, worksafe etc. organisations haven't had the potential dangers inherent with fixed base routers brought to their attention, if it were to be it wouldn't surprise me if laws were brought in around the world phasing out these routers. This quite easily could lead to manufacturers and sellers offering big trade-in deals which of course would have the dual effect of removing fixed base routers and give impetus to the sale of plunge routers.
> There now, nothing controversial there!


Is this a *real* problem or is this a problem looking for a place to happen? How many injuries have been identified directly related to fixed base routers compared to injuries sustained by plunge routers worldwide? Do we really need government regulations to protect us from ourselves? Personally, I'm tired of big government intruding into my life. There is no legislation that can stop idiots from harming themselves but well meaning people continue to strangle those of us that still have a brain in our heads. We have a choice to own both types of routers so why not leave it up to us instead of some nameless government entity making the choice for us. BTW, I own both types and have *never* had an issue with my fixed base offset laminate trimmer.


----------



## OutoftheWoodwork (Oct 4, 2012)

harrysin said:


> Well, well, well, ME being accused of being controversial! But seriously guys, so far as potential danger is concerned with fixed base routers, it isn't just fingers that are in danger but one's torso being ripped open. Just visualise a fixed speed fixed base router laying on it's side on the bench with 2" of bit protruding and it's power switch on, The power plug has been correctly removed whilst the bit was fitted. Now the plug is inserted into the power point and the router flies off the bench!
> As for ease of height adjustment when below the table, most plunge routers need only one hand beneath the bench for course or micro adjustment whereas fixed base in all the many demonstrations that I've witnessed require either lifting the router out of the table or using two hands.
> My hope is that forum members new to routing will take note from not only my opinions but also those from so many members who have responded to this post. If all future routers were to be fixed base, routing would go back to the last century, whereas if they were all to be of the plunge type, it would be a big step for mankind!
> I have to say that I am surprised that health and safety, worksafe etc. organisations haven't had the potential dangers inherent with fixed base routers brought to their attention, if it were to be it wouldn't surprise me if laws were brought in around the world phasing out these routers. This quite easily could lead to manufacturers and sellers offering big trade-in deals which of course would have the dual effect of removing fixed base routers and give impetus to the sale of plunge routers.
> There now, nothing controversial there!


Ok Harry... here's one for you when you're talking about changing the bit; my one craftsman (don't know the model, so please forgive me but I got it cuz it had a work light on it& I liked the color of it which is blue) in order to change the bit, you have to put the lever over into 'lock' position, preventing the machine from doing a thing. (I really like this safety feature.) So, even if I were to find some way to have the power button (which is on the other side of the unit) in the 'on' position when I plug it back in, it won't turn on, till you flip the switch to 'unlock' again. I actually did that one time; I turned off the machine, locked it, unplugged the machine, changed my bit, plugged it back in, got all set to start, and turned on the machine; nothing. Come to find out (after checking everything else out for why it didn't start) DUH... I forgot to move the switch back into the 'unlock' position.

I'm a firm believer in "to each their own". I wouldn't want to see all routers go to one type or another, because it's like drills, miter saws, etc.; no one model or type will suit everyone. If it did, then no one would have made changes to the original design of the item/tool. Plungers were made for the ease of changing the depth. Big deal. It doesn't bother me to use my rotating cap to change the depth. And if I wanted to get mean, I could just say that plungers are for lazy people who are in too big of a hurry to take their time and crank the depth. THAT'S how accidents happen... it's not the tools fault, it's the USER. As for laws getting rid of these "terrible, dangerous, out-of-date" routers, that's a bit silly, don't you think? That's like the government outlawing a tool you like because it has dangers. All tools; rotating or otherwise are dangerous. It's like the government saying "you aren't responsible enough to handle this tool... you could get hurt, so we're gonna take it away from you." You start that kind of thinking, the next thing you know, we'll all be living in a world where the government will take all sharp instruments away because "they're too dangerous for you." Makes no sense.


----------



## AndyL (Jun 3, 2011)

I'm sure the health and safety organisations have bigger fish to fry. Maybe they can look at fixed base routers when they've finished eliminating table saw accidents!

Harry's original question was about consumer choice. Phil's history lesson was quite interesting I thought. Why did European consumers embrace Elu's invention to such a degree that the design completely took over the market, while US consumers to a large extent rejected it? Different sorts of woodworkers, doing different things? Not-invented-here syndrome?


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

OutoftheWoodwork said:


> Ok Harry... here's one for you when you're talking about changing the bit; my one craftsman (don't know the model, so please forgive me but I got it cuz it had a work light on it& I liked the color of it which is blue) in order to change the bit, you have to put the lever over into 'lock' position, preventing the machine from doing a thing. (I really like this safety feature.) So, even if I were to find some way to have the power button (which is on the other side of the unit) in the 'on' position when I plug it back in, it won't turn on, till you flip the switch to 'unlock' again. I actually did that one time; I turned off the machine, locked it, unplugged the machine, changed my bit, plugged it back in, got all set to start, and turned on the machine; nothing. Come to find out (after checking everything else out for why it didn't start) DUH... I forgot to move the switch back into the 'unlock' position.
> 
> I'm a firm believer in "to each their own". I wouldn't want to see all routers go to one type or another, because it's like drills, miter saws, etc.; no one model or type will suit everyone. If it did, then no one would have made changes to the original design of the item/tool. Plungers were made for the ease of changing the depth. Big deal. It doesn't bother me to use my rotating cap to change the depth. And if I wanted to get mean, I could just say that plungers are for lazy people who are in too big of a hurry to take their time and crank the depth. THAT'S how accidents happen... it's not the tools fault, it's the USER. As for laws getting rid of these "terrible, dangerous, out-of-date" routers, that's a bit silly, don't you think? That's like the government outlawing a tool you like because it has dangers. All tools; rotating or otherwise are dangerous. It's like the government saying "you aren't responsible enough to handle this tool... you could get hurt, so we're gonna take it away from you." You start that kind of thinking, the next thing you know, we'll all be living in a world where the government will take all sharp instruments away because "they're too dangerous for you." Makes no sense.


Barb, you are basing your comments after just one years routing experience compared to my 38 years of extensive use of routers. I must also point out that the purpose of this thread was to get members talking about routers, after all this is a ROUTER forum and new beginners are joining every day and they must be made to realise that the router table is a very basic method of routing, there are far more exciting and useful methods of routing many of which are shown in my illustrated threads and tutorials. I'm not suggesting that there shouldn't be router tables, they certainly have their use, even I have two of them!


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Marcel M said:


> Is this a *real* problem or is this a problem looking for a place to happen? How many injuries have been identified directly related to fixed base routers compared to injuries sustained by plunge routers worldwide? Do we really need government regulations to protect us from ourselves? Personally, I'm tired of big government intruding into my life. There is no legislation that can stop idiots from harming themselves but well meaning people continue to strangle those of us that still have a brain in our heads. We have a choice to own both types of routers so why not leave it up to us instead of some nameless government entity making the choice for us. BTW, I own both types and have *never* had an issue with my fixed base offset laminate trimmer.


I consider that I have achieved what I set out to do, and that is get members talking routers. Who cares about the statistics Marcel, the undeniable FACT is that fixed base compared to plunge routers are POTENTIALLY dangerous and the latter can do everything that the former can but not visa versa. I can't make sense out of the couple of comments that plunge routers are not as stable as fixed base ones.


----------



## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Barb, it may surprize you to hear I am glad you said that. Most people are at a loss when it comes to deciding on new tools. Many are similar in appearance and all you can do in most stores is hold one. Online reviews at sales sites like Amazon are often colored with negative comments from people who didn't read the manual or wanted to return a tool for some other reason. Many people find magazine testing suspect since they get paid to promote new tools. This is where the forums come in; here you get unbiased reviews from other members. I buy different brands of tools so I can try them and give information to members... most of the tools go on to find new homes. Note that I said information and not opinion. No one brand of tool has everything right and people can only choose based on what is right for them. The best way to choose a new tool is to try it hands on and decide for yourself. You will get the chance to try a Ryobi and the Colt palm routers as well as the DeWalt 611 compact router. Bring your favorite to compare against them. This is one of the things we do at our Sawdust Saturday get togethers.


----------



## gwizz (Mar 3, 2012)

*Plunge versus Fixed base and quality of routers in N Amarica*

While plunge router bases’s are neat, I still have a hard time going through the fiddling required, to use mine unless I'm letter cutting etc. My uses are for the most part are slot cutting to fit & glue in 90 degree components of projects, or mounting it under my router table and since my Bosch router has the feature of being adjustable through the bottom plate it spends 80 % of it’s time mounted under the table where the plunge base is of not advantage .

Safety wise : Routers of any type have always terrified me, and that's a good thing so the switch is off and it’s unplugged any time I play / fiddle with it.

North American marketing Quality :
Other than everyone likes overpriced exotic stuff ( hence Bugatti Veyron down to Nissan GTR etc. ) the practical difference between buying a good quality ( there is low end stuff to avoid no matter the product ) family sedan with upgrade features to keep you happy & comfy or spending 200% to 300% more to by a Mercedes which is probable 130% better a vehicle ( taking style and badge value out of the equation ) does not make any economic sense especially if you consider, your use, will never really push or exceed the limits of the cheaper vehicle. 

SO.... the question becomes do I spend a pile of money so I can show off that I own FESTOOL or the like ( they certainly make great stuff ) or do I buy BOSCH , DEWALT etc. which are fine products and will do more than I'll ever do. I’m on my 2nd Dewalt – it took 16 years to wear out the 1st one – The Bosch I bought 6 months ago blows me away with power and features. 

That ought to get the discussion heated up !


----------



## curiousgeorge (Nov 6, 2006)

Marcel M said:


> Is this a *real* problem or is this a problem looking for a place to happen? How many injuries have been identified directly related to fixed base routers compared to injuries sustained by plunge routers worldwide? Do we really need government regulations to protect us from ourselves? Personally, I'm tired of big government intruding into my life. There is no legislation that can stop idiots from harming themselves but well meaning people continue to strangle those of us that still have a brain in our heads. We have a choice to own both types of routers so why not leave it up to us instead of some nameless government entity making the choice for us. BTW, I own both types and have *never* had an issue with my fixed base offset laminate trimmer.


You can't legislate against stupidity but it is proven time and again that stupidity can legislate. :wacko: Our current batch of watch dogs are a bunch of total morons when it comes to anything needing a little common sense (the most uncommon thing in the world, by the way).


----------



## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

harrysin said:


> I consider that I have achieved what I set out to do, and that is get members talking routers. Who cares about the statistics Marcel, the undeniable FACT is that fixed base compared to plunge routers are POTENTIALLY dangerous and the latter can do everything that the former can but not visa versa. I can't make sense out of the couple of comments that plunge routers are not as stable as fixed base ones.


I'll bet that there are more table saw accidents than router accidents even with work guards yet they still insist on building them. Yes Harry we shouldn't confuse the issues with the facts. :sarcastic:


----------



## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

OutoftheWoodwork said:


> Plungers were made for the ease of changing the depth. Big deal. It doesn't bother me to use my rotating cap to change the depth. And if I wanted to get mean, I could just say that plungers are for lazy people who are in too big of a hurry to take their time and crank the depth. THAT'S how accidents happen... it's not the tools fault, it's the USER.


Whoa there, Barb!

The "big deal" for firms like Elu came in the 1960s when they started to capitalise on their plunge routers by introducing all sorts of templates to rout-out recesses (pockets) for hardware in doors and windows. That's one job I do regularly (i.e. more than 100 times in a year) and there's no question about it - it's a job simply cannot be done with a fixed base router. In a similar vein there's the job of cutting mason's mitre joints in worktops (counters) - yes, you could do this with a fixed base router, but it would be way, way slower (and the average kitchen I do seems to need 6 or more cuts these days). Because of the ready availability of plunge routers there are all sorts of jigs and accessories and also materials which have appeared in Europe to "leverage" their intrinsic advantages.

To illustrate one task in particular that I do regularly which is plunge router only country only, take a look at this video



OutoftheWoodwork said:


> As for laws getting rid of these "terrible, dangerous, out-of-date" routers, that's a bit silly, don't you think? That's like the government outlawing a tool you like because it has dangers.


OK, you've got me there. I have to agree that it's a bit ridiculous. On that basis they'd ban Stanley knives because they (apparently) cause more serious injuries every year than any other tool by an awful long way



AndyL said:


> Maybe they can look at fixed base routers when they've finished eliminating table saw accidents!


Well, Andy, we are a lot further towards that than the USA - even without SawStop! 



AndyL said:


> Why did European consumers embrace Elu's invention to such a degree that the design completely took over the market, while US consumers to a large extent rejected it? Different sorts of woodworkers, doing different things? Not-invented-here syndrome?


More likely is that the American makers (Porter-Cable, Ingersoll-Rand and Stanley) all pulled out of the UK/European market in the 1970s/early 1980s - due to issues such as currency rates, etc (although in addition Stanley sold off their power tool division to Bosch who decided to completely restructure it and redesign the whole, rather ancient, range and at the same time shut-down the UK manufacturing operation at Workington). I doubt that US makers ever had ever had much of a market in Germany where there were more than a few router makers and a real "buy the home product, first" ethos, still evident today. It was the Germans who pushed the plunge router in a big way as a production tool so when small DIY routers became available (in the 1970s), firms like Bosch introduced routers like the POF500:-










They weren't alone with many other firms like AEG, Metabo, Kress, Peugeot, etc piling in. These weren't difficult machines to produce - all you needed to do was fix a collet on the end of a die grinder motor and use the 43mm collar (standard Euro size for drills) to hold the plot in a lightweight, simple sprung plunge base. They were/are little more than that. They were inexpensive and became hugely popular, so much so that even B&D got in on the act with the DN66:-










I recently picked up one of these from a flea market (garage sale?) for the princely sum of GB£5 (or about US$8), although I have no idea what I'm going to do with it, yet :blink:

Regards

Phil


----------



## slider (Jun 4, 2011)

*I'm curious*

Do the plunge routers sold elsewhere (outside of North America) have a locking lever so they can be locked down at a specific depth?

Both of my plunge bases have locking levers, so they can be locked at a specific depth and you don't have to keep constant downward pressure on them. Is this not the same as the terribly dangerous fixed base?

Maybe we should legislate all routers out of existence. Or make them out of Nerf. Nerf routers for everyone, and no wood either, Splinters!!!! Oh the horror!







Tongue firmly planted in cheek...


----------



## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

slider said:


> Do the plunge routers sold elsewhere (outside of North America) have a locking lever so they can be locked down at a specific depth?


Hi Brian

Every one I've ever used has had that feature (plunge lock). Most if not all the currently available routers also have either a "manual" mode - in which a fine adjuster is engaged (effectively turning them into a fixed base router) - or offer an after market accessory (often called a fine height adjuster) which screws onto the base of the router replacing the depth flag (in most cases) and does the same sort of thing. Of course the exception to that rule appears to be Festool.......

Regards

Phil


----------



## cutter79 (Oct 21, 2012)

Just one question; Has anyone experienced an accident with the router in the plunge mode as there have been many reported on a number of forums where the router in the table mode is the common choice of many accidents?


----------



## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

I have been using routers for 50 + years (Plunge/Fixed/router Table type) I have Never had a accident ,I always think how I'm going to use it b/4 I power it up.is it safe ,if so I power it up if not I don't.....by the way you don't need to lay a fixed base router on it's side a quick 3" hole in a 2" x 10" wood block to set the router bit down in will keep it safe to use..





cutter79 said:


> Just one question; Has anyone experienced an accident with the router in the plunge mode as there have been many reported on a number of forums where the router in the table mode is the common choice of many accidents?


----------



## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

bobj3 said:


> I have been using routers for 50 + years (Plunge/Fixed/router Table type) I have Never had a accident ,I always think how I'm going to use it b/4 I power it up.is it safe ,if so I power it up if not I don't.....by the way you don't need to lay a fixed base router on it's side a quick 3" hole in a 2" x 10" wood block to set the router bit down in will keep it safe to use..


Good point, Bob.

I have also seen a work top with 1 1/2" holes drilled into the top so that the router can be rested standing up....

Harry has a good question in, why do the US makers still produce fixed base routers when the rest of the world is using plunge routers ( which you can use in fixed mode if you so desire)?

If they are so good, why are they now selling a 'combo kit'. Is this their way to slide the US market into being familiar with the plunge router.

To all those that bought a 'combo kit', WHY. If the fixed base router is so good, why not just buy a second fixed base?


----------



## curiousgeorge (Nov 6, 2006)

jw2170 said:


> Good point, Bob.
> 
> I have also seen a work top with 1 1/2" holes drilled into the top so that the router can be rested standing up....
> 
> ...


You get the best of both worlds. There are times when a fixed base is more suited to the job than the plunge.


----------



## BRAVOGOLFTANGO (Oct 11, 2012)

Silly thread, but interesting replies.


----------



## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

curiousgeorge said:


> There are times when a fixed base is more suited to the job than the plunge.


Hi George

That's just what we are trying to get at - when?

Regards

Phil


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

bobj3 said:


> I have been using routers for 50 + years (Plunge/Fixed/router Table type) I have Never had a accident ,I always think how I'm going to use it b/4 I power it up.is it safe ,if so I power it up if not I don't.....by the way you don't need to lay a fixed base router on it's side a quick 3" hole in a 2" x 10" wood block to set the router bit down in will keep it safe to use..


Gee whiz Bob, you did start routing at a young age! Because I know you so well, I really would have been surprised if you had ever had an accident with a router, but let's face it Bob, there's a whole new generation out there just hearing about routers and I have at all time attempted to guide these new-comers to the fact that there is more to routing than using it under the table or hand-held simply to do simple edge work. I know that I'm on the right track because of the number of "thank you's" that I receive on threads and by way of PM's which often lead to me giving my email address which leads to a surprising number of "private lessons"


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

BRAVOGOLFTANGO said:


> Silly thread, but interesting replies.


Unfortunately I don't know your name so it's obvious that you know little about me, most of my many forum friends including our liaison know that whenever I sense that that forum has become dull I start a thread which will get members talking. This doesn't mean there is no truth in the threads, but it does mean that basically I have my tongue firmly in my cheek. 
Typical threads are: would our academics like to comment
the utter stupidity of Imperial measurement
the time has arrived for a revolution in America
etc.

If you now doubt that I can be serious, please click on my name at the top of this post, then statistics followed by show all threads. Alternatly you can just click on my uploads.


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

curiousgeorge said:


> You get the best of both worlds. There are times when a fixed base is more suited to the job than the plunge.


My good friend George, please put me out of my agony by telling me when a fixed base is more suited.


----------



## N'awlins77 (Feb 25, 2011)

Well I bought the combo to have the fixed base stay in the table and the plunge I use out. (my only other router is an old, low horsepower, basic Craftsman) But, like someone mentioned above, about the plunge lock. When I make signs or most jobs, once I set my depth, I don't release the lock, until I'm done. So I guess it's the same as using a fixed base. Maybe I'm using it wrong, I just find it easier to leave it set, and like with making signs, I just, shut off, and tilt the router before I lift it up. Then set it to the side. Yea, maybe that's not the safest procedure, but like a lot of jobs in woodworking, you have to respect the tool you are using and be safe. They operator has the brains, not the tool!! ;o)


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Lee, the secret is to have a finger on the lock lever ready to release it in an instant, something that can't be done with a fixed base router. Many years ago I had a Bosch router that had some nice features but also one that I didn't like and that was the lock was on by default and the lever had to be moved to release it, and was OK except for someone like me who had used routers for years that were the "normal" arrangment.


----------



## anniekirk (Apr 11, 2010)

Harry,

You gave me a wake up call. I don't know how many times I have thought of that very thing while using my favorite fixed base router. As of today I am getting one of my three plunge routers off of the shelf and USE it!


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

I'm so pleased that my message is starting to be received John. By using plunge routers exclusively, there is a whole new exciting world of routing out there including the making and using of templates with template guides also ski routing opens up new exciting possibilities. Hopefully this forum is big enough to be watched by router manufacturers and sellers and if a demand is seen things really could start to change.
I know for a fact that our liaison, Mike, is working hard in the background liaising with manufactures regarding metric bits and template guides, perhaps I can convince him about plunge routers, we have on several occasions discussed this topic but he can't think beyond Porter Cable style template guides!


----------



## curiousgeorge (Nov 6, 2006)

harrysin said:


> My good friend George, please put me out of my agony by telling me when a fixed base is more suited.


The times when I feel I need more control/stability such as doing trim work and sometimes even dados. My fixed base is shorter and allows more stability and the "D" handle, more especially, is much more stable and easier to controll. IMHO.
If you are still in agony, Harry might I suggest you take a couple of jiggers of your special medicine and call me in the morning. :sarcastic:


----------



## OutoftheWoodwork (Oct 4, 2012)

harrysin said:


> Barb, you are basing your comments after just one years routing experience compared to my 38 years of extensive use of routers. I must also point out that the purpose of this thread was to get members talking about routers, after all this is a ROUTER forum and new beginners are joining every day and they must be made to realise that the router table is a very basic method of routing, there are far more exciting and useful methods of routing many of which are shown in my illustrated threads and tutorials. I'm not suggesting that there shouldn't be router tables, they certainly have their use, even I have two of them!


First, Harry, let's get something straight... Just because you have more experience using a router means I couldn't *possibly* know *anything* about the difference between a plunge or a fixed router, could I??? My comments had nothing to do with router tables, as your original post talked about routers, and not the table, either; rather, the safety issue between the two, which is what I have been posting about, and making my points on; (but I wouldn't know anything about safety, either, would I?) You don't need experience to know safety. Now you want to include the table, which brings me to this: I haven't mentioned a routing table, or that being the only use for a router *as I don't use one*. And to be *completely* honest, I haven't much of a clue as to how to even use mine... I got my routers for sign making. Working on a table will be something I explore later. I did use it to make a track for my drying box I made, other than that, it sits in the workshop under a counter. 

With that, you and I will agree to disagree when it comes to plunge or fixed, and the safety of them. *Every* tool is dangerous, and is only as safe as the person using them. I can respect your feelings about fixed routers, and you are entitled to your feelings/opinions. But do not insult me or my comments over years of experience, as experience doesn't make up for intelligence.


----------



## OutoftheWoodwork (Oct 4, 2012)

Mike said:


> Barb, it may surprize you to hear I am glad you said that. Most people are at a loss when it comes to deciding on new tools. Many are similar in appearance and all you can do in most stores is hold one. Online reviews at sales sites like Amazon are often colored with negative comments from people who didn't read the manual or wanted to return a tool for some other reason. Many people find magazine testing suspect since they get paid to promote new tools. This is where the forums come in; here you get unbiased reviews from other members. I buy different brands of tools so I can try them and give information to members... most of the tools go on to find new homes. Note that I said information and not opinion. No one brand of tool has everything right and people can only choose based on what is right for them. The best way to choose a new tool is to try it hands on and decide for yourself. You will get the chance to try a Ryobi and the Colt palm routers as well as the DeWalt 611 compact router. Bring your favorite to compare against them. This is one of the things we do at our Sawdust Saturday get togethers.


When is the next Sawdust Saturday? I'm gonna have to beg my mom to take the grandson so me and my Handsome One can come out...


----------



## AndyL (Jun 3, 2011)

curiousgeorge said:


> The times when I feel I need more control/stability such as doing trim work and sometimes even dados. My fixed base is shorter and allows more stability and the "D" handle, more especially, is much more stable and easier to controll. IMHO.


The one feature of my Triton router I don't like is that the handles are set quite high on the body, even relative to other plunge routers, which doesn't help stability. I can appreciate the advantage of having low-set handles like you get on a fixed base. Some sort of sub-base with an upright handle on the side could give a plunge router a similar feel to a D-handle fixed base I think.


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

curiousgeorge said:


> The times when I feel I need more control/stability such as doing trim work and sometimes even dados. My fixed base is shorter and allows more stability and the "D" handle, more especially, is much more stable and easier to controll. IMHO.
> If you are still in agony, Harry might I suggest you take a couple of jiggers of your special medicine and call me in the morning. :sarcastic:


That may well be a good idea George, it may help me to understand how a fixed base is more stable than a plunge.


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

OutoftheWoodwork said:


> First, Harry, let's get something straight... Just because you have more experience using a router means I couldn't *possibly* know *anything* about the difference between a plunge or a fixed router, could I??? My comments had nothing to do with router tables, as your original post talked about routers, and not the table, either; rather, the safety issue between the two, which is what I have been posting about, and making my points on; (but I wouldn't know anything about safety, either, would I?) You don't need experience to know safety. Now you want to include the table, which brings me to this: I haven't mentioned a routing table, or that being the only use for a router *as I don't use one*. And to be *completely* honest, I haven't much of a clue as to how to even use mine... I got my routers for sign making. Working on a table will be something I explore later. I did use it to make a track for my drying box I made, other than that, it sits in the workshop under a counter.
> 
> With that, you and I will agree to disagree when it comes to plunge or fixed, and the safety of them. *Every* tool is dangerous, and is only as safe as the person using them. I can respect your feelings about fixed routers, and you are entitled to your feelings/opinions. But do not insult me or my comments over years of experience, as experience doesn't make up for intelligence.


Oh dear, we are touchy Barb.


----------



## anniekirk (Apr 11, 2010)

Harry,

It's official, my new router of choice is my plunge router. It is a change but I am loving it!

John


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

That's good to hear John. That is the reaction of everyone who has taken my advice. I hope that the one you just bought is a nice big one that will save you having to upgrade once you become proficient and realize the advantages of BIG routers, and believe me, you don't have to be 6'4" to handle them, I'm only 5'2"or so and coming up to my 79 birthday and have no difficulty with what one of my favorite forum friends refers to as a TANK! It's a bit like the ease with which piano removers handle what most of us can't even budge, it's KNACK.


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

AndyL said:


> The one feature of my Triton router I don't like is that the handles are set quite high on the body, even relative to other plunge routers, which doesn't help stability. I can appreciate the advantage of having low-set handles like you get on a fixed base. Some sort of sub-base with an upright handle on the side could give a plunge router a similar feel to a D-handle fixed base I think.


 That no doubt is because the router was originally designed primarally for below table use. I have mentioned this in so many of my posts, whilst one of the best routers for table use it's quite hopeless for hand held use.


----------



## reuelt (Dec 29, 2008)

*B&D chose fixed based routers*

Black and Decker (now merged with Stanley) decided to stop subsidiary Dewalt from producing their routers and only allowed subsidiary Porter-Cable to continue making theirs.
So the world's largest tools company actually decided to stop plunge-routers (as per Elu design) and keep fixed base routers (as per Porter-cable design).

Perhaps there could be commercial reasons we don't really know nor understand.


----------



## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

reuelt said:


> So the world's largest tools company actually decided to stop plunge-routers (as per Elu design) and keep fixed base routers (as per Porter-cable design).


Hi Reuel

B&D also happen to own deWalt who make plunge routers. In fact several of DWs designs are actually the current production versions of those self-same Elu designs (DW613, DW615, DW622 and DW625). As to B&D stopping production of plunge routers, that can only be in the USA. Over here ALL B&D routers are plungers..... Maybe Harry is right about the need for revolution after all :yes4:

Regards

Phil


----------



## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

reuelt said:


> Black and Decker (now merged with Stanley) decided to stop subsidiary Dewalt from producing their routers and only allowed subsidiary Porter-Cable to continue making theirs.
> So the world's largest tools company actually decided to stop plunge-routers (as per Elu design) and keep fixed base routers (as per Porter-cable design).
> 
> Perhaps there could be commercial reasons we don't really know nor understand.


I think it was Bosch that bought Stanley. 

Dewalt is still making router,s both plunge and fixed, PC is still making both plunged and fixed routers. 

The Dewlalt DW625(Elu descendant) is still available...

DEWALT DW625 3-Horsepower Variable Speed Electronic Plunge Router - Amazon.com


----------



## Chris Curl (Feb 13, 2012)

Nah ... it's more that we Americans are kick butt mothers who don't need no stinking plungers to do the job. And the rest of the world still can't keep up with us. You can say that there is something wrong with us and that we need to change to "keep up with the times" until you are blue in the face, but the fact is that we are doing just fine, thank you.

We have both options, and can (and will) choose FOR OURSELVES which tool we use for the job. That is called liberty, something we cherish over here. 

So feel free to go about life your way and let us do the same.


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Do I detect the "it was good enough for my father" syndrome?


----------



## Chris Curl (Feb 13, 2012)

harrysin said:


> Do I detect the "it was good enough for my father" syndrome?


Nope, not even close. You detect American exceptionalism. We are a free people and are perfectly capable of deciding on our own what works best for us. We do not like being told what to do or how to do things by people who claim to know what is best for us. And we will defend that freedom to the last. That is what has made us the greatest nation on earth.


----------



## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

If you could only own one router a plunge router would be the best choice. Plunge routers will perform jobs that fixed based routers are not able to accomplish. Fixed base routers have their benefits too. Combo kits provide the best of both worlds at an inexpensive price.

We are all friends here and the purpose of the forums is to exchange ideas, not create static. "Nuff said."


----------



## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

Phil P said:


> Hi Marcel
> 
> B&D also happen to own deWalt who make plunge routers. In fact several of DWs designs are actually the current production versions of those self-same Elu designs (DW613, DW615, DW622 and DW625). As to B&D stopping production of plunge routers, that can only be in the USA. Over here ALL B&D routers are plungers..... Maybe Harry is right about the need for revolution after all :yes4:
> 
> ...


Uhhh? You have the wrong guy.


----------



## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Marcel M said:


> Uhhh? You have the wrong guy.


Sorry Marcel, it was Reuel that response was meant for :blink:

Regards

Phil


----------



## BRAVOGOLFTANGO (Oct 11, 2012)

I have doubts anyone conducted a statistical analysis of which router style America prefers, but am more perplexed that a router-style choice keeps an Aussie up late at night. :no:


EDIT: If it helps the OP get some sleep at night, I'm an American, have both styles, use both styles and I sleep well not worrying about what style of routers Australians use...there is help out there for this sort of thing, that or get some wood in your shop and start chipping away...


----------



## BRAVOGOLFTANGO (Oct 11, 2012)

harrysin said:


> Unfortunately I don't know your name so it's obvious that you know little about me, most of my many forum friends including our liaison know that whenever I sense that that forum has become dull I start a thread which will get members talking. This doesn't mean there is no truth in the threads, but it does mean that basically I have my tongue firmly in my cheek.
> Typical threads are: would our academics like to comment
> the utter stupidity of Imperial measurement
> the time has arrived for a revolution in America
> ...


You gotta warface? Lemme see your warface? Now lemme see your real warface.....You don't convince me..... work on it! (Full Metal Jacket)

It's a router-forum, it will get quiet at times, the apparent lack of diplomacy skills to make your points are evident and most quality forums don't allow the approach you're taking. As for your personal resume, it's irrelevant to me who your friends are here, how serious you think you can be, blah blah blah. 

Work on just a little bit of diplomacy, it'll take you far, old dogs can learn new tricks, give it a whirl.


----------



## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

BRAVOGOLFTANGO said:


> the apparent lack of diplomacy skills to make your points are evident and most quality forums don't allow the approach you're taking. As for your personal resume, it's irrelevant to me who your friends are here, how serious you think you can be, blah blah blah.
> 
> Work on just a little bit of diplomacy, it'll take you far, old dogs can learn new tricks, give it a whirl.


So BGT, that's diplomacy? 

Two peoples divided by a common tongue, methinks


----------



## BRAVOGOLFTANGO (Oct 11, 2012)

Phil P said:


> So BGT, that's diplomacy?
> 
> Two peoples divided by a common tongue, methinks


Negative, to the point, mission accomplished, period. Disclaimer: No countries were ripped in the making of my militant non-diplomatic reply. :yes2: 

As stated before, silly thread, but interesting replies.


----------



## reuelt (Dec 29, 2008)

*Basic Physics & Engineering provides better understanding.*



harrysin said:


> I simply cannot understand why America still prefers potentially dangerous routers. I am of course referring to fixed base routers where a very sharp bit is protruding from the tool and rotating at 20,000 plus rpm., many without soft start. This compares to plunge routers that as soon as the downward pressure is released, the bit instantly returns to the safety of the housing. It seems to me to be the "it was good enough for my father so it's good enough for me" syndrome. Come on guys, think about the versatility of the plunge router and how it can do everything that a fixed base one can plus LOTS more.


Consider this:-
America is 110/120V 60Hz. That is 1/2 the voltage of Australia/Europe/China.

To make same power motor, internal motor wires must be of thicker gauge to get 2 times the amperage. Heat must be drained because more current means more heat.

PUT 2 pillars in the router to get the plunge and the space left for the size of the motor becomes too small for a reliable 110/120V 60Hz motor.

The fixed based router design is brilliant American design. The size available for the motor is big and the metal cylinder provide adequate heat sink - true reliability.
American Screw thread is based on tpi (threads per inch). Say you use 8tpi, rotate 8 times and your get 1" depth. Turn 1 time and you get 1/4". Turn 1/4 turn and you get 1/16" depth.

The plunge router was designed by ELU in Europe where voltage is 220V. American company "Stanley,Black & Decker" owns ELU's design rights. But engineering-wise, a plunge router is less suitable for America/Canada.

90% of routing is done using a routing table. The professional router-lifts can mount the motor of a fixed based router more easily than a plunge router.
Most people making a CNC machine prefer to use the motor from a fixed-based router. Even people who build router-copiers or router pantographs find that mouting the American router motor is MUCH easier.

I am NOT an American but I appreciate American Engineering and honesty.
A 10" (254mm) tablesaw with 5/8" Arbor of American Design can cut 3-1/4" (82mm) and can also cut dados. Since dados are cut by the tablesaws, PLUNGE router is less important.

A typical European 250mm tablesaw with 30mm arbor can only cut 77mm (3") thick wood and cannot do dados. 30mm bore of the EU sawblade requires bigger flange so reduce depth of cut. 75mm legs of a table are NOT strong enough.

If I need to make decent furniture - an 10" American designed Tablesaw will do. 

But I follow the people who cannot even divide by 2, 4, 8, 16 I will need a 300mm EU tablesaw plus a big plunge router.



Just my 2 cents..

Reuel


----------



## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Hi Reuel



reuelt said:


> PUT 2 pillars in the router to get the plunge and the space left for the size of the motor becomes too small for a reliable 110/120V 60Hz motor.


So, that's obviously why my 1970s Elu MOF31 plunge router (110 volt) is still going strong...... As you've mentioned Elu, take a look at the size of the motor on an Elu MOF98 or a MOF177 (3339 in USA). Big enough for you? I think you'll find that those motors are a tad bigger than a P-C 690 (at circa 4in x 4-1/4in for the MOF177e - and they fit between the pillars).... My little 600 watt Elu MOF96 (also 110 volt) is also an "oldie" having been hard run for about 15 or so years of its life and now pushing 30 years of age - and it's still completely reliable. Is it how I use them? I think mot, but I've never burnt out an Elu, or even a DW or Bosch 1/2in router (done a couple of smaller ones, though ). I can remember the old alloy Stanley H.264 (fixed base) routers we had in the 1970s and early 1980s. Everyone had one at one time. They were the best. Back then. Where are they now? 

There are components which have failed over the years, though - brushes, bearings, switches and flexes (cords). It takes a LOT of hours to wear them out



reuelt said:


> American Screw thread is based on tpi (threads per inch). Say you use 8tpi, rotate 8 times and your get 1" depth. Turn 1 time and you get 1/4". Turn 1/4 turn and you get 1/16" depth.


Whereas a plunge router works differently, _but no less efficiently_, with the significant advantage that once you centre a guide bush _it stays centred_ - on a fixed base router where the body screws into the base (e.g P-C 690, etc) turning the body of the motor can and does move the cutter off centre to the cutter if there is any lack of concentricity in the machining. I'm told there often is (my two in the past were both off-centre)



reuelt said:


> The plunge router was designed by ELU in Europe where voltage is 220V. American company "Stanley,Black & Decker" owns ELU's design rights.


As far as I know the first patent for plunge routers was granted to Carter, an American firm, before WWII. Admittedly Elu was the first firm to succesfully build and sell plunge routers in volume, but that was after WWII (circa 1947)



reuelt said:


> But engineering-wise, a plunge router is less suitable for America/Canada.


You've still failed to explain, WHY? I've worked in the USA and met professional woodworkers over there who use plunge routers all the time because for many tasks they find them faster, better, etc. The same guys often hace fixed base routers as well - but not for tasks better performed by a plunger, and mainly because they often very cheap to buy. Reliability is often another matter



reuelt said:


> 90% of routing is done using a routing table.


Speak for yourself, Reuel. 90% of _my_ routing is done handheld - freehand, using a side fence, using templates - _with plunge routers_. Tables don't come into it. I'm not alone in that respect, but I'll be happy to post comments when you put a vid on YouTube showing you using a router mounted in a router table being used to put an edge profile on a 6-seater dinner table :thank_you2:



reuelt said:


> Most people making a CNC machine prefer to use the motor from a fixed-based router. Even people who build router-copiers or router pantographs find that mouting the American router motor is MUCH easier.


Finally a point on which we can _half_ agree, although it's only laziness which makes it easier to go down that path for us Europeans (and then only for DIY machines - proper industrial machines often use those nice Italian induction spindle motors by firms like HSD, Colombo, etc. BTW firms like ShopBot also offer them as a better quality upgrade). One point - I don't know about other plunge routers, but if you look on the underside of an Elu MOF177/DeWalt DW625 you'll find four threaded (metric) mounting holes which can be used to secure the motor to a mounting plate. This was exactly how Elu secured this motor to their CNC 860 router (still sold by Trend although I'm not sure who actually builds it). I'll post a picture to confirm this if you'd like. From memory I can't recall if Bosch did/do the same thing



reuelt said:


> A 10" (254mm) tablesaw with 5/8" Arbor of American Design can cut 3-1/4" (82mm) and can also cut dados. Since dados are cut by the tablesaws, PLUNGE router is less important.


Actually a typical European woodworker is as likely to reach for the biscuit jointer (another European invention, this time Swiss) or Domino jointer (Festool, who else) when jointing sheet materials, in part because it's a lot faster, in part because we do a lot less with plywood over here and in part because cutting a trench (dado) across a "skinned" material such as MFC (melamine) weakens it. Edge rebates we do with a spindle moulder or router _because it's safer!_ As to 5/8in arbors - you'll find that they're a throwback to the days before people considered motor braking a useful safety feature...... 

Edit: I went and looked-up the depth of cut on a 10in Startrite TA175DS saw, a once common trade/light industrial type here in the UK, but not unknown in Oz, which was also sold to many home woodworkers (and which is still popular today amongst the same audience). Blade size 10in (254mm), depth of cut 3-1/8in (79mm), arbor size 1in (25.4mm). The later TA1250 has a 30mm arbor but about the same depth of cut. My current Makita MLT100 portable table saw, 10in (actually 260mm) blade, 30mm arbor (EU version), depth of cut 93mm (or 3 2/3in). Personally I find that 3in (nominally 76mm) stock planes out to about 68 to 70mm in the real world, so I don't see what the fuss is all about, but in any case maximum cutting depth is only ever obtained by removing the crown guard - an unsafe practice.........




reuelt said:


> A typical European 250mm tablesaw with 30mm arbor can only cut 77mm (3") thick wood and cannot do dados.


Which saw would that be, then? You bandy the word "typical" around with seemingly no supporting evidence, nor any understanding that 12in (300mm) saws are also pretty common in Europe. And they give you 100mm/4in DOC. As to dados, see my response above, to me they're a red herring.



reuelt said:


> If I need to make decent furniture - an 10" American designed Tablesaw will do.
> 
> But I follow the people who cannot even divide by 2, 4, 8, 16 I will need a 300mm EU tablesaw plus a big plunge router.


I've done commercial quality work on an 8in Startrite table saw in the past with a small 12in bandsaw and an 1/4in or 8mm 600watt plunge router - all smaller than what you refer to. When doing a job you work with the available equipment, no matter what it is. Saying you need a 300mm saw to work this way is, quite frankly, mistaken. Oh, and like many "metric" woodworkers I can and do divide by 2, 4, etc as well as 11, 13, 27.... - I don't know about you but I was taught at school how to set out all kinds of peculiar divisions by simple geometry. Later I was taught to use a rod (storey pole) as a means to set out jobs without the inherrent inaccuracy that repeatedly measuring things, especially with a tape measure, introduces. You'd probably be horrified at how little I use a tape at times......

As stated else where, and I will repeat this for your benefit, there are certain tasks which require a plunge router on safety grounds. Central amongst those tasks are deep routing (such as pocket cutting, mortising, etc) and recessing of ironmongery. Plunge routers are also far easier and safer to use on tasks like template routing and can always be set-up to work in the same way as a fixed base router. Or are you going to try telling me that it's as safe or as easy to cut a 3in deep mortise with a fixed base 1200 watt Porter-Cable (i.e. a 690)? I'm not saying that a fixed base router is without value to the woodworker; I am saying it's not as versatile as a plunger in many instances

As I said elsewhere. Different strokes for different folks. 

Regards

Phil


----------



## Chris Curl (Feb 13, 2012)

Chris Curl said:


> Nope, not even close. You detect American exceptionalism. We are a free people and are perfectly capable of deciding on our own what works best for us. We do not like being told what to do or how to do things by people who claim to know what is best for us. And we will defend that freedom to the last. That is what has made us the greatest nation on earth.


I officially retract this statement. America is no longer the great country its founding fathers created. We are officially in decline.


----------



## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

Chris Curl said:


> I officially retract this statement. America is no longer the great country its founding fathers created. We are officially in decline.


Which officials deemed us in decline?


----------



## Chris Curl (Feb 13, 2012)

in keeping with the forum's rules regarding political discussion, i decline to say any more, only that i retract my previous statement.


----------



## david k (Oct 22, 2012)

does it really matter.shop safety is #1 if your affraid of a fixed based router dont use it.when i am done with my fixed base router i either remove the bit or crank it up into the housing.i am sorry but this seems a silly thing to worry about.


----------



## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

People use different methods to perform woodworking tasks and that is all good. "Nuff said."


----------



## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

Mike said:


> People use different methods to perform woodworking tasks and that is all good. "Nuff said."


Yep Mike, I think that is the bottom line on the subject!


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Mike said:


> People use different methods to perform woodworking tasks and that is all good. "Nuff said."


But isn't it nice, and possibly educational to share those methods especially by way of posting photo-shoots rather than simply posting a shot or two of a finished project. Nuff said?


----------



## reuelt (Dec 29, 2008)

Phil P said:


> Hi Reuel
> 
> 
> So, that's obviously why my 1970s Elu MOF31 plunge router (110 volt) is still going strong...... As you've mentioned Elu, take a look at the size of the motor on an Elu MOF98 or a MOF177 (3339 in USA). Big enough for you? I think you'll find that those motors are a tad bigger than a P-C 690 (at circa 4in x 4-1/4in for the MOF177e - and they fit between the pillars).... My little 600 watt Elu MOF96 (also 110 volt) is also an "oldie" having been hard run for about 15 or so years of its life and now pushing 30 years of age - and it's still completely reliable. Is it how I use them? I think mot, but I've never burnt out an Elu, or even a DW or Bosch 1/2in router (done a couple of smaller ones, though ). I can remember the old alloy Stanley H.264 (fixed base) routers we had in the 1970s and early 1980s. Everyone had one at one time. They were the best. Back then. Where are they now?
> ...


A few points

1. A plunge router designed for 220-240V has restricted internal space for bigger motor. So when adapted for 110/120V HP and therefore torque must be reduced.
Hitachi is more honest.
They sell 120v router of same model at about 1/2 price that of 240V version. Hitachi state that M12V is 1700w (120v version) but 1850W (240V version). 120V Model cannot have the same power - unless they become bulkier & top heavy.
2. R.L. Carter in NY invented the electric Fixed based router. Stanley later owned Carter. ELU invented the plunge router in Europe.
3. 90% of people do all routing on the routing table was the result of survey by Template Tom. He posted that result in Australian woodworking forum.
4. I brought in the tablesaw because many Americans use the tablesaw for dados and even do molding with molding head on the tablesaw. Hence the plunge router is less important in America than in EU when dadoing cannot be done on the tablesaw.
5. The 30mm bore on the EU 250mm circular saw blade means that the arbor is 30mm too and so the pulleys and bearing blocks and the flange are all larger as well. So 77mm depth of cut is typical on a EU tablesaw. If say I have a 10" tablesaw with 5/8 arbor and I buy a 250mm blade with 30mm bore + 16 to 30mm bush I will lose 2mm DOC only. But blade will be unstable unless I increase the arbor flange and use stablisers hence lose more DOC.
If 77mm is sufficient, why are electric planers even from EU having blades 82mm wide?
6. Maybe you have the ability to divide by 2,4,8, 16 but rulers with 1/8" and 1/16" divisions are banned in metric countries. Why? So you CAN'T because of law.


----------



## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

harrysin said:


> But isn't it nice, and possibly educational to share those methods especially by way of posting photo-shoots rather than simply posting a shot or two of a finished project. Nuff said?


Video would be far more instructive.


----------



## jcliff (May 10, 2012)

reuelt said:


> 6. Maybe you have the ability to divide by 2,4,8, 16 but rulers with 1/8" and 1/16" divisions are banned in metric countries. Why? So you CAN'T because of law.


Thats news to every UK retailer I ever bought a ruler or tape from, we tend to have mm one side and inches the other. 

And for the record your argument about motor sizes makes no sense at all, the motor on my plunge here is the same size as the fixed routers I've seen in the states, so the american ones could be the centre of a plunge if they wanted to (and you can get bases to do that, proving the point) 

personally I think they both have their place, I find my plunge very good for freehand stuff, and a pain in the rear for using in the table, its also pretty useless for making gadgets like Matthias makes at woodgears.ca, so if I could get a cheap fixed base here in england I would, but the only ones they sell over here are flippin expensive. 

Trying to argue one is better than the other is like saying that one car is better than another, unless you define the criteria its a pointless exercise. A ferrari is definitely better than a minivan for going fast on a track, but if the criteria was taking a family and their luggage to the airport, the ferraris pretty useless.


----------



## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

reuelt said:


> Hitachi is more honest. They sell 120v router of same model at about 1/2 price that of 240V version.


About the same price here (UK) as well as Ireland. I assume that you are actually comparing _like with like_ in this instance; e.g. US 120volt prices with US 220 volt prices or Australian 120 volt prices with Australian 230 volt prices because there is, as everyone knows, somewhat of a price advantage in the USA (as BobJ continually reminds me ) making it impossible to do any sort of direct, _meaningful_ comparison


reuelt said:


> Hitachi state that M12V is 1700w (120v version) but 1850W (240V version). 120V Model cannot have the same power - unless they become bulkier & top heavy.


You keep stating this, yet when I talked with a motor rewinder today about this sort of thing today (I'm having a old 230 volt motor rewound as a 110 volt motor) he found what you keep reiterating to be very amusing for some reason. I am probably one of the few individuals in a position to directly compare some 230 volt with 110 volt versions of the same (or similar router) because I own 230 volt and 110 volt versions of no less than 3 router models the Elu MOF31, MOF177e and MOF69/MKF67 (same motor, different bases). I've had the motors out of all of them at one time or another to do bearing replacements and the motors are of similar size between the two voltages and similar weights. One is NOT twice the size of the other which is what you keep implying.

As to the 1700 watt/1850 watt thing, well I can't say for Hitachi but I do know that deWalt DW625 type 6 routers (current version) are rated at 2000 watts regardless of voltage whilst earlier models were 1850 watts, regardless of voltage. In use there appears to be little difference in power output. But interestingly one reason that _deWalt_ gave for _not_ upping the power of the DW625 (from 1850 watts to 2000) for many years was the need to keep current within the limits imposed by a 15/16 Amp plug in many 110/120 volt markets. They changed their tune when Bosch, Festool and Makita all brought out 2000 watt and greater routers a couple or three years back - which require a 32Amp plug if you are using CEE typ 17 plugs (like we do) 










- it was competition that pushed DW into moving to a more powerful motor in the DW625 (that and the fact that nobody seems to want the DW626 - a great lump of a tool). This uprated motor, which does use a different winding to the earlier machines, incidentally fits in the same size casing as the original tool, regardless of voltage. One manufacturer I know who has different ratings on some of their power tools between 110 volt and 230 volt is Bosch; they make both a 235mm rip saw (the GKS85) and a variable output heat gun where the 230 volt models have higher motor wattages than the 110 volt tools; this is so that they can keep the 110 volt tools within a 16 Amp plug size - the preferred size for use on UK construction sites - and nothing more. They stand out as pretty much the exception which proves the rule.

The most remarkable example of motor power upgrading actually comes from Mafell who's LO65e (an alternative version of the Festool OF2000 which Mafell made for Festool) underwent a motor design about 2 or 3 years back to get what is called a CUprex motor (the model is now called the LO65ec) In the same space casing they've upped the power from 2000 watts to 2600 watts. Not sure how they've done it, but one guess is that they're using technology and materials (such as neodymium) originally developed for cordless electric tools. The resulting router is unbelievably powerful against anything else I've ever tried (went to an open day a while back and tried the Arunda construction jigs out with an Lo65ec against my own DW625). If only I could justify buying one! 


reuelt said:


> 2. R.L. Carter in NY invented the electric Fixed based router...... .....ELU invented the plunge router in Europe


Please see US Patent #1,565,790 granted to Carter on December 15, *1925* which shows conclusively that the plunge router was in fact an American _invention_ (credit where credit's due). Elu would have had to wait until that expired (in 1941/42) before introducing their first production plunger. WWII was probably part of the reason for the delay between patent expiry and production in 1949

If there's anyomne interested in early routing I found this article written by Hermann Hjorth in 1949 whilst researching something else. It makes interesting reading for router users. The same site also contains an interesting history of the electric router starting with George Kelley's first tool


reuelt said:


> 3. 90% of people do all routing on the routing table was the result of survey by Template Tom. He posted that result in Australian woodworking forum.


I presume he wasn't talking to any professional woodworkers, then! In my experience the majority of trade guys use their routers freehand - even seen hand helds a lot in the USA both in shops and at demos and it's most often what manufacturers illustrate in their brochures. Quoting a small survey from a (probably) untypical sample audience is no proof of anything IMHO. You know what they say about, lies, damned lies and statistics! 


reuelt said:


> 4. I brought in the tablesaw because many Americans use the tablesaw for dados and even do molding with molding head on the tablesaw. Hence the plunge router is less important in America than in EU when dadoing cannot be done on the tablesaw.


As far as I am aware the term "dado" refers to the head and/or a dado groove (or housing in UK parlance) - a "dado" alone the edge of a piece of wood is called a *rebate* (even in the USA, although the spelling might be different) and _you don't need a plunge router to make one of those!_. 


reuelt said:


> 5. The 30mm bore on the EU 250mm circular saw blade means that the arbor is 30mm too and so the pulleys and bearing blocks and the flange are all larger as well.


:blink: The pulleys are *bigger*? The size of the pulleys is determined solely by the ratio between the motor speed and the required blade speed (revs), which is basic schoolboy mechanics (assuming you took physics). The size of the bearings in 250mm or 10in or even lighter 12in saws is actually all much of a muchness. The size of bearing shaft within the plumber block(s) or arbor bearing block doesn't need to be the same as that of the blade arbor. Many arbor ends on European-made (and some Japanese made) saws have a removeable top-hat flange which carries the blade and fits over a reduced diameter main arbor of 5/8in. The outside diameter of this bush can be varied to neet the requirements of different markets, but the bearings should be the largest diameter you can get into the machine on grounds of reliability and longevity. It's the diameter of the bearings and their housings together with the thickness of the machine bed which determines the maximum blade height and nothing more

Even my little Makita portable saw has this self-same system with a 15.9mm (5/8in) reduced arbor and a 30mm top hat bushing. It was designed for use in the global market and doubtless elsewhere thare are variations on this delivery scope. BTW it rips 88mm DOC or about 6mm more than your 82mm DOC, although that's with the crown guard removed and a 254mm/10in blade. It even will do 91mm with a 260mm blade


reuelt said:


> So 77mm depth of cut is typical on a EU tablesaw.


It's time to ante up. You keep using the word "typical". The word is like "average" or "normal" and is a complete nonesense _in this respect_. Kindly name names, Reuel, rather than talking in riddles. Precisely which saws are you talking about? I'm asking this because I refute your statements which seems to be driven by some sort of logic which I cannot begin to perceive. I've obviously not spent enough time working with computers

In point of fact it is somewhat point_less_ making the comparison because sizes for timber mean that "3in" (76/77mm) planed softwood is delivered from the timber merchant at an actual size of circa 70 to 72mm, whilst "4in" (102mm) planed softwood arrives with us at about 90mm (UK sizes, but CLS - Canadian Lumber Standard - is about the same). Unless you are re-ripping 4in nominal timber - in which case a 3in saw is actually inadequate unless you adopt hazardous techniques such as "deeping" - then any 250mm or 10 inch saw should cope with 3in timbers.......... 


reuelt said:


> But blade will be unstable unless I increase the arbor flange and use stablisers hence lose more DOC.


:blink: Again, where do you get this from? As I stated before in the design of a rise and fall table saw the maximum height of the arbor is determined more by the daimeter of the bearings and their housings than anything else - and most bearings on saws are a bit bigger than 1-1/4in diameterr


reuelt said:


> If 77mm is sufficient, why are electric planers even from EU having blades 82mm wide?


They aren't _all_ 82mm - I think you are mistaking co-incidence for deliberate intention. In fact I have a Festool EHL65 as my main door planer - width 65mm which is more than adequate for dealing with doors (1 hour fire doors circa 55mm, 30 minute 44mm).

In the past B&D used 75mm as their "standard" in Europe, Makita had 80mm as theirs (but sold other another model at 132mm), Skil used 76mm (3in) on some tools as did Porter-Cable. I still have a 1970s Tarplaner which takes 4in (102mm) blades. Some firms like Makita, Hitachi, Virutex and Mafell still make specialist wider planers for different applications, up to 320mm (12in) wide, like this Mafell. I believe that most manufacturers now offer 82mm because Bosch originally chose that width and stuck with it, but because power planers aren't designed for primary preparation of timber - they are much more of a joinery installation tool - 82mm allows you to plane the edge of a 3in joist with a bit to spare. That is about as wide as you go for 80% of joinery installations.


reuelt said:


> 6. Maybe you have the ability to divide by 2,4,8, 16 but rulers with 1/8" and 1/16" divisions are banned in metric countries. Why? So you CAN'T because of law.


If what you have just written wasn't so ludicrous it would be funny. Take a look at this tape. It's a Bahco MTS-8-25-E 8 metre (25ft) tape which is _exactly_ the one I use for all my installation work. I also have the 5 metre (15 ft) version. They are marked in _both_ metric and Imperial, on both sides, and _are_ available over the counter in better tool stores in the UK. They are _fully CE-compliant_. The only reason you don't see them in mainland Europe is because of a certain gentleman called N. Boneparte who introduced the metric system as a common system across much of Europe somewhere around 200 years ago (replacing countless local measurements in the process). That's why you don't see inch measurements in, say, the Netherlands (Holland) although there is still a colloquial measure of "het duim" in use to this day. A "duim" (or thunb) is about 1 inch, or 25mm........ ::haha:
The reason that Britain and Ireland didn't go metric then was because he never succeeded in invading us (and is why we don't speak French, either I suppose). Even now it's not _illegal_ to sell Imperial rulers and tapes here, so please stop trying to tell someone who lives and works in Europe about what is and isn't legal here when you don't know

Regards

Phil


----------



## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

jcliff said:


> personally I think they both have their place, I find my plunge very good for freehand stuff, and a pain in the rear for using in the table, its also pretty useless for making gadgets like Matthias makes at woodgears.ca, so if I could get a cheap fixed base here in england I would, but the only ones they sell over here are flippin expensive.
> 
> Trying to argue one is better than the other is like saying that one car is better than another, unless you define the criteria its a pointless exercise.


Hear! Hear! Thank you, John, for injecting a common sense rationale

Regards

Phil


----------



## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

Phil P said:


> ..... a "dado" alone the edge of a piece of wood is called a *rebate* (even in the USA, although the spelling might be different)


Here in the US we call them "Rabbets". Not to be confused with Rabbit (a small furry creature).

A rabbet
A rabbet (rebate in British English) is a recess or groove cut into the edge of a piece of machineable material, usually wood. When viewed in cross-section, a rabbet is two-sided and open to the edge or end of the surface into which it is cut.
The word rabbet is from Old French rabbat, "a recess into a wall." An example of the use of a rabbet is in a glazing bar where it makes provision for the insertion of the pane of glass and putty. It may also accommodate the edge of the back panel of a cabinet. It is also used in door and casement window jambs, and for shiplap planking. A rabbet can be used to form a joint with another piece of wood (often containing a dado).


----------



## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Rebate (marketing)

Rebate (marketing) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Rabbet in woodworking
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbet

===


----------



## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

L Town Graphics said:


> Harry if I was to give a response to the OP I would say generally speaking most people are using table routers opposed to freehand work. Don't quote me on it because I could very well be wrong. My father owns a router as well as a router table and until I asked him about routing I had never in my 34 years on earth seen him use one.


Dan; perhaps hobbyists, but the trades need a machine that can be used on material too large or awkward for a table.
Some examples :
-counter-top installations
-edgework on large pieces
-template work on large pieces
-hinge gains on door frames/doors, and railing rebates
-boat building, especially interior millwork
...just some handheld uses that come immediately to mind.


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Marcel M said:


> Video would be far more instructive.


I'm not too sure about that Marcel, feedback that I've been receiving over a long period tells me that the photos with explanatory text can be individually studied, which is far better than pausing a frame of a video. The closest that I've got to making videos are the four slide shows with audio that can be seen by clicking "forum videos" at the top of the home page. The reason that I havent, and don't intend to produce videos is that because of my advanced age, I constantly have "seniors moments" where I have to pause for several seconds to recall words and that would be very annoying to viewers.


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

"Originally Posted by reuelt 
3. 90% of people do all routing on the routing table was the result of survey by Template Tom. He posted that result in Australian woodworking forum. 
Yes indeed he said that, I know, I was with him at a woodworking demonstration when he raised the question BUT, everyone present was a hobbyist. It was for this very reason that I've done my best over the years to teach beginners that the router table is NOT the only way to use the router and to this end I have regularly made and posted projects demonstrating the various methods, most of these projects have been made specifically for the forum.


----------



## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

harrysin said:


> I'm not too sure about that Marcel, feedback that I've been receiving over a long period tells me that the photos with explanatory text can be individually studied, which is far better than pausing a frame of a video. The closest that I've got to making videos are the four slide shows with audio that can be seen by clicking "forum videos" at the top of the home page. The reason that I havent, and don't intend to produce videos is that because of my advanced age, I constantly have "seniors moments" where I have to pause for several seconds to recall words and that would be very annoying to viewers.


Perhaps it is just me but I do get more from video than slide shows or photos. You seem to be a natural at teaching and have a wry sense of humor. I think that you should give it a try before dismissing the idea. I, for one, would watch with interest. We youngsters were raised on television and movies, you know talkies not silent movies, so we are predisposed to gathering information that way. Maybe you could use a tele-prompter.

A picture is worth a thousand words, a video is worth a thousand pictures.

Marcel


----------



## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

Marcel M said:


> Perhaps it is just me but I do get more from video than slide shows or photos. You seem to be a natural at teaching and have a wry sense of humor. I think that you should give it a try before dismissing the idea. I, for one, would watch with interest. We youngsters were raised on television and movies, you know talkies not silent movies, so we are predisposed to gathering information that way. Maybe you could use a tele-prompter.
> 
> A picture is worth a thousand words, a video is worth a thousand pictures.
> 
> Marcel


You can also overdub audio later, which allows to you to fix those kind of issues rather easily! The next thing you know, Harry, you'll have a full video production studio(can do it all with a computer nowadays)!


----------



## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

The question now is "Can an old dog learn new tricks"?


----------



## PaulH (May 30, 2012)

AndyL said:


> The evidence that America prefers fixed-base routers can be seen on the web sites of Lowe's and Home Depot. Roughly half their top 10 or so best selling full size routers are fixed base, and the rest are dual-base kits with fixed and plunge bases. Plunge only models don't start appearing until lower down.
> 
> In the UK (and I think Europe generally), the major retailers don't sell any fixed bases at all. If you go to the specialist tool suppliers' sites, the best sellers are plunge models, with some interchangeable-base models appearing lower down the list. As far as I can tell, no-one is trying to sell any fixed-base-only models here.
> 
> As Harry says it could simply be that American retailers _think_ their customers prefer fixed bases, and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy because they stock a poor choice of plunge models. But the free market works, right? If the customers wanted plunge-only routers they would sell them, or face losing market share to smaller suppliers who will. Conversely if the fixed-base only models didn't sell, they wouldn't be stocked.


I'm in South Africa.
I don't think I've ever seen a non plunge router anywhere in the market.
I would have to ask the question. For any hand routing what are the advantages of not having a plunge router.

For table routing a mounted plunge router for most of use folk actually allows for adjustments without a custom table/lift mechanism.

Cheers
Paul


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

AndyL said:


> The evidence that America prefers fixed-base routers can be seen on the web sites of Lowe's and Home Depot. Roughly half their top 10 or so best selling full size routers are fixed base, and the rest are dual-base kits with fixed and plunge bases. Plunge only models don't start appearing until lower down.
> .


That's because many buy strictly w/ their wallets...


----------



## Knothead47 (Feb 10, 2010)

Harry, we Yanks like to live on the edge. I am reading, for the second time, an account of the western adventure of the Lewis and Clark expedition in the early 19th century. Compared to what they encountered, a router is a minor thing. However, your point is well taken by me and understood with what you are saying. My router is fixed base but is mounted in a Kreg router table. Tried freehand routing one time and the results looked like a beaver and a termite chewed it.


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Knothead47 said:


> Harry, we Yanks like to live on the edge. I am reading, for the second time, an account of the western adventure of the Lewis and Clark expedition in the early 19th century. Compared to what they encountered, a router is a minor thing. However, your point is well taken by me and understood with what you are saying. My router is fixed base but is mounted in a Kreg router table. Tried freehand routing one time and the results looked like a beaver and a termite chewed it.


great book... 

practice on the free hand routing....
easy skill to learn...


----------



## PhilBa (Sep 25, 2014)

Nothing like resurrecting a controversial 3 year old thread...


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

all that goes around comes around...


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

or...
the gift that keeps on giving...


----------



## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

I very seldom use a plunge base, I don't like them. They are heavy, bulky ,awkward, the springs are too hard to push to plunge, the stops are a PITA to adjust and plunge against, they all have different plunge locks,trurrets, adjustment screws, on/off switches, dust collection doobobs. too many gadgets attached to make routing complicated, They are hard to disassemble to change bits, and I could go on and on. 
They just keep hanging crap on them to make them safer. Keep it simple is my idea. I don't like /or have a smart phone either. 

Herb


----------



## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Herb I think there's more opportunity for error with a plunge base as now you have to take into consideration the play involved with the plunging system . Or am I way off base here lol


----------



## Al B Thayer (Jun 2, 2014)

*Chicken or the egg?*

Im posting without reading the thread because Im sure Harry your getting you butt handed to you and I just want to post and not get to caught up in the other posts.

First off. The plunge router is not and will never be a replacement for the fixed base.

Secondly. They can't fit into the absolute best router lift. RightSide Lift.

Third. Unless your doing a plunge type cut. They perform poorly and are hard to micro adjust. Even with a crank.

I like the smaller Porter Cable combo router because its not a big clunky heavy plunge only router. My 3 hp router hasn't been used in 10 years. If I need that much power I go to the shaper. But I may buy a big porter Cable Speedmatic.

In my shop saefty is not founded in the tool or its guards or how it operates. It's in the safe handling and use of the tool. 

Al B Thayer


----------



## Al B Thayer (Jun 2, 2014)

harrysin said:


> Well, well, well, ME being accused of being controversial! But seriously guys, so far as potential danger is concerned with fixed base routers, it isn't just fingers that are in danger but one's torso being ripped open. Just visualise a fixed speed fixed base router laying on it's side on the bench with 2" of bit protruding and it's power switch on, The power plug has been correctly removed whilst the bit was fitted. Now the plug is inserted into the power point and the router flies off the bench!
> As for ease of height adjustment when below the table, most plunge routers need only one hand beneath the bench for course or micro adjustment whereas fixed base in all the many demonstrations that I've witnessed require either lifting the router out of the table or using two hands.
> My hope is that forum members new to routing will take note from not only my opinions but also those from so many members who have responded to this post. If all future routers were to be fixed base, routing would go back to the last century, whereas if they were all to be of the plunge type, it would be a big step for mankind!
> I have to say that I am surprised that health and safety, worksafe etc. organisations haven't had the potential dangers inherent with fixed base routers brought to their attention, if it were to be it wouldn't surprise me if laws were brought in around the world phasing out these routers. This quite easily could lead to manufacturers and sellers offering big trade-in deals which of course would have the dual effect of removing fixed base routers and give impetus to the sale of plunge routers.
> There now, nothing controversial there!


A plunge router will never work as well as this. No other setup is this easy to use for all aspects of table routing.

Al B Thayer

https://youtu.be/Tz9ppSlrphc


----------



## Al B Thayer (Jun 2, 2014)

jw2170 said:


> Good point, Bob.
> 
> I have also seen a work top with 1 1/2" holes drilled into the top so that the router can be rested standing up....
> 
> ...



I don't think a plunge router was ever supposed to replace the fixed base. I only use a plunge base when I have to. The fixed base is far more easy to adjust. 

Also there is no way I would use a plunge router on a profile cut. Too tall and the handles are also too high. If I did once I got it set I would lay it on its side each time I stopped to adjust so it would have a spinning bit to stay clear of anyway. 

Al


----------



## Duane Bledsoe (Jan 6, 2013)

Al B Thayer said:


> Im posting without reading the thread because Im sure Harry your getting you butt handed to you.....
> 
> Al B Thayer


Actually, in this thread his butt was handed to him several years ago. It's grown back by now. :wink:


----------



## Al B Thayer (Jun 2, 2014)

*consider this*

Harry 
I sell router lift plans all over the world. In over 28 different countries so far. Many times in your country. Its almost an even split between the USA and the world. The lift requires a router to exit its fixed base. Never thought to make one for a plunge router.

So my guess is the US isn't the only country that values the fixed base.

Al B Thayer


----------



## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

I agree with Al, Safety usually starts with the operator. and if he has the switch on when he unplugs the router and doesn't turn it off to plug it in, then he is the problem, not the router. 

As far as laws go to govern routers, we don't need them.

I agree with someone who recently stated here on a thread that how safe is it to hang on to a running router with one hand while you lock the plunge feature down? and Have also thought of that while using a plunge router. Some of the locks are unhandy, and no two routers have the same locks or positions of locks, so if you use several different ones you are fumbling around with the router running trying to lock it down. 

If you like plunging routers great, but a lot of beginners are not comfortable with trying to learn all the tricks to using one on top of learning to rout. That said ,I learned on a fixed base and I still prefer one.

Herb


----------



## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

My chainsaw doesn't have a guard on the chain either; If you don't feel it's safe, don't use it.
I daresay a chainsaw will do a hell of a lot more damage quicker than any router. Ban chainsaws?!


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Who's being controversial now? My first point is router lifts, what is wrong with this one of mine made at next to no cost" I posted a photo-shoot showing it's making some time ago. It's super fast in use and to operate just step on the pedal and go higher than required then release pedal pressure until the weight of the router gently lowers it to the correct height then lock the router, faster than it takes to type! Of course, a BIG plunge router is required which is the advice that I give to all newcomers to routing, buy a BIG powerful router, it will do everything that you will ever want of it. Another advantage is that for hand held routing it is far more stable than a lightweight one and gives far better control, remember that in use it is sitting on the work-piece or template NOT being held in mid air! Notice that I've never made attempts to SELL plans or anything else.
Reading a couple of these new post give me the impression that America only makes/sells junk plunge routers which I'm sure is not true, so I don't know what makes and models these members have.
My intention from becoming a forum member has been to assist new comers to routing that there are exciting ways in which to use a router other than one under a table and to that end I have introduced the making and use of templates and template guides, also router skis, neither of which seem to be covered in books and magazines.
Since I started this thread I have the impression that more and more plunge routers are being sold, also more things metric since my thread "The utter stupidity of Imperial measurements"! Finally, try routing this D shape box with a fixed base router!


----------



## demographic (Aug 12, 2012)

I look at this the other way, why does the rest of the world pretty much ignore fixed base routers when they are better for routing the edges of things like window boards on site and putting a chamfer onto a bit of MDF with a bearing guided cutter.

Plunge bases are great if the router is supported on both sides but with a higher centre of gravity they are just more tippy when only supported on one side.

Fixed bases being cheaper machines can be bought and effectively set up one way and left like that. That machine gets used for one thing and if its cheap enough use another machine for a different stage of the job.
Plunge bases good for mortices and kitchen postform joints.

To me this entire question is like a bit like saying that a hammer is better than a screwdriver, its not, its just used for different things.

I mean, you can put screws in with a hammer but the screwdriver is better but that screwdriver isn't much use on a nail.


----------



## Duane Bledsoe (Jan 6, 2013)

Herb Stoops said:


> As far as laws go to govern routers, we don't need them.
> 
> Herb


You said it, brotha!

There are already way too many laws that try to govern the stupidity out of everyday life, and I find that they get in the way of us smart people. Rather than make individuals be responsible for their own choices they try to pass a law to hedge them in as a form of control to protect them from themselves. This does away with products, or even just certain ways of life, that not only worked and worked well, but also made things easy and simple. But for the sake of the less intelligent ones, we are all rounded up like cattle and corralled together. No more laws like this, please. Just let Darwin's Law apply, and stupidity will take care of itself. Like the Duke once said, life's tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid. They either need to wise up or go sit in a corner somewhere and stay out of the way.


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Scott, if you were to study the finer points of plunge routing you would realize that that there are many little dodges that add versatility and safety to plunge routing. As for edge trimming per se, a trim router would normally be be a better tool for the job.


----------



## timbertailor (Oct 4, 2009)

Maybe we just build more router tables than the rest of the world.


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

I doubt that is anything to do with it, a router table is still an essential item,for instance, I would hate to attempt to make a set of raised panel doors with a hand held router!


----------



## Frankj3 (Oct 6, 2014)

I must say, this is the *FIRST* forum thread, on *ANY forum*, that I have read from the first post to the last.....12 pages worth. Controversy, opinions, statistics, country loyalty and arguments put aside, please allow me to interject as one of the true "newbies" to this hobby/craft.

First off, I have owned a router for over 30 years. But as we all know, owning and using are two different things. I didn't seriously take up this hobby until September 2014. As way of background, I am a degreed machinist and have worked for a machine shop for nearly 40 years. That means I am not without some skills.

Harry, I can honestly say I fall under the *"this is how my Dad did it"* catagory. And I have always held my Dad's teachings in high regards. I am proud to say I am using his router, which is over 35 years old and still looks brand new. He took care of his tools.....a trait I learned from him at a very early age. But my Dad did not use a router often....in fact he rarely used a router. Thus my vast lack of knowledge of routers.

So.....fixed base routers are all I know. I make freehand custom signs and have virtually no desire to make anything else in wood. I don't own a router table.....and have no plans on buying/building one at this time.

So, now the question comes into play: fixed base or plunge? My brother in law recently bought a plunge base/fixed base combo router. It's pretty.....but the little bit of playing around I did with it did not convince me the plunge base was better than my fixed base. Again, I know, I have VERY limited experience with either model, *but the point is, I learned on a fixed base. It's what I am most comfortable using.* I respect the inherent dangers of the tool; safety is my first and foremost practice.

At some point in time, I *may* try using my brother in law's plunge router again. And who knows, I may become a fan of them. As for now, I will continue using my two 35 year old Craftsman routers (I inherited both my Dad's and my father in law's) as well as my Ridgid trim router.

I'm not opposed to learning something new.....even though I am an old dog. But at the same time, comfort and familiarity have their place in my tool shed too.

And last but not least, thank you Sir Harry for all you do for our craft! I like to read your posts and try to learn from your teachings as much as I can. I hope and pray you are feeling better soon.


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

A most interesting story Frank. Have you made any signs with raised letters, I would find it very difficult to do with a fixed base router.
The big sign made for my son's property suffered badly in our harsh West Australian summers so I brought it back for re-refurbishment and the photo shows the result.


----------



## demographic (Aug 12, 2012)

harrysin said:


> Scott, if you were to study the finer points of plunge routing you would realize that that there are many little dodges that add versatility and safety to plunge routing. As for edge trimming per se, a trim router would normally be be a better tool for the job.


For site work we don't usually have that nice bench you are resting the side of the router on.
Its usually putting as roundover onto a window board and the board is inch MDF. Sometimes it comes with the roundover already on it and its dead easy to just touch up the ends with a block plane and bit of sandpaper, the router doesn't even come out of the box.

Other times (usually when the window is set into an old stone cottage with three foot thick walls) we get a sheet of inch MDF and make the lot up on site.
We have two carpenters sawhorses and no real flat benches, no way on earth am I carting a massive flat bench around just to do a rounded edge on a window board.

So, I have a little De-Walt 611 (well the UK version anyway) with a fixed base.

Its an absolute doddle to do and takes no time.
No plunging, no faffing about making fancy edge packers to get things to the right height and the jobs done in no time.
I understand that there are workarounds but its all time to do it. Its not a hobby for me

I suspect that you do pretty much all of your work in a workshop?
If I want things done in a workshop then someone else gets paid to do it, not me.
My task is to do as many tasks as economically viable on site. That way its me getting paid to do them and not someone else.:wink:

To be fair, I have recently bought the combo kit for my 611 so its got the option for plunging. But for tasks like that its a faff, takes more time and time is money.

I also have a far larger plunge router which pretty much just gets used to do postform joints on kitchen worktops. Its a big heavy numb contraption though and if at all possible I leave that at home.
I don't have a workshop and to be totally honest, if ever get a decent size workshop it will be full of motorcycles and parts, not full of my woodworking gear. 

Same thing with router tables, I got one for free a while ago and gave it away as it took up too much space and I never used it. It was actually counterproductive to cart it about.


----------



## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

*"give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime"*

I learned a long time ago that everyone has an opportunity to create their "toolbox" and becomes most productive and satisfied when they can use their "tools" in a manner most responsive to the task at hand. Obviously restrictions exist so there is no tool that is always universal...a box wrench cannot be used where access is denied by piping, similarly, an open end wrench might not fit in the space allowed. Different types of wrenches are of different strengths and are designed for different purposes, such as for wrenching high-strength fasteners. Box end and socket type wrenches, because they surround the fastener head, are the strongest types of wrenches and have less chance of slipping off the fastener. Open end, flare nut and adjustable wrenches are not as strong as the corresponding sizes of box or socket wrenches because they do not surround the fastener head, and are not intended for heavy loads, such as breaking loose frozen fasteners. After all, who needs both a 6-point AND a 12-point box wrench in the same size...see what I mean ?

I use wrenches for my example because everyone knows wrenches...I won't use routers as I do not profess to have the 38 years of experience entitling me to some opinion considered to be "the only way".

My "toolbox" is filled with decades of experiences that I am proud to express that I know how and when to reach into it to perform the task at hand.

This thread seems to be more about trying to convince each other that there is empirical evidence that one way is so much better than the other as to believe it is the only way...

My opinion is that there is no right and wrong...only choices that will then lead to dealing with other choices...(often referred to as "consequences"). What is important is knowing how to deal with the choices we make.

I would expect that those of you who have mastered this craft in ways that many of us have not even considered yet would instead pass on how to reach into this new area of our respective "toolboxes" than to insist that there is only one tool in any one toolbox.

I remember reading this thread when I joined in December of the same year (2012) and I remember also developing the impression that I still have...a sense that there are "my way or the highway" opinions. I say "good for me" for putting all those opinions into my toolbox...because they are nothing more than that...and everybody has one.

I can add, however, that this thread has made me realize there are more tools in this new toolbox that I can use...

But nothing is ever going to dissuade me from using my toolbox in the manner I wish to use it, provided my safety comes first. Continued insistence is futile...

Please stop perpetuating "my way or the highway" by quoting unsubstantiated statistics, laws that don't exist, shoulds or shouldn'ts, expert opinions, etc... Nobody likes anything forced down their throat. And nobody appreciates some of the rude nature of some of the responses. Poking the bear just to make sure it's not sleeping with some altruistic notion in mind is still not a good idea, in my opinion...

I would ask that you accept this in the spirit in which it is intended...after all it's just another opinion... I am grateful for those who have said the same thing (in fewer words)...

Keep up the good work everybody...there's plenty of room in my toolbox...


----------



## Semipro (Mar 22, 2013)

Ok Nick
I can accept that !
( just wish sometimes I had more money and a bigger tool box)


----------



## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

Semipro said:


> Ok Nick
> I can accept that !
> ( just wish sometimes I had more money and a bigger tool box)


Yeah...that's the one thing missing from my toolbox too...more money  no matter how many times I reach in...


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

How many times do I have to explain my position on this forum, I thought that my English was reasonable.
My aim is and always was to teach the finer points of routing to newcomers to routing who would otherwise no doubt go through life thinking that table routing is the only way other than forming edges. In many of my posts on this subject I've stated clearly that the only time that a fixed base router has advantages is on building sites which you have confirmed.
Could any of you gentlemen make clocks like these even with a plunge router let alone a fixed base one? These are among the the skills that I freely pass on. Once the finer points of routing are understood, no job will ever become a problem.


----------



## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

harrysin said:


> How many times do I have to explain my position on this forum, I thought that my English was reasonable.
> .


Harry maybe it's your Aussie accent ?


----------



## Frankj3 (Oct 6, 2014)

Sir Harry, 

Most of my signs have outset letters. The main difference between your sign and mine is the background. I don't remove as much of the background as in your photo.

Being the novice I am, I imagine the best practice for your sign would be with skis. However, based on my limited experience I would have made that sign with my fixed base router. 

Attached are a few pics of my signs. When working with half logs I build a jig like the one shown. But for flat sign I have not used a jig. All if my work is freehand.

I do not own, nor do I plan on buying or building a router table.

I look forward to everyone's feedback.....criticism, points of matter, recommendations or condemnations.


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Frank, if you can turn out work of such a high standard with "minimal" experience, my mind boggles at the thought of what you would be capable of with training.


----------



## Frankj3 (Oct 6, 2014)

Thank you Sir.


----------



## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

Frankj3 said:


> Thank you Sir.


He is very gifted, love your work, Frank.

Herb


----------



## Frankj3 (Oct 6, 2014)

Thank you, too, Herb.
Receiving a complement from both you and Sir Harry is a feather in my cap!!


----------



## Spectric (Jul 11, 2013)

Hi all

Very interesting reading and them clocks are real craftmanship. A fixed base router is no more dangerous than life itself, it only becomes dangerous in the wrong hands. For rounding over etc I use a Bosch GKF600 which comes with a fixed base here in the uk. I totally agree that safety is becoming to extreme, in fact to the point where we are so safe that we become dangerous. Table saws are another good example of UK - USA differences and the riving knife is a must but the guard is not aways ! If you can clearly see that blade unobstructed it makes me feel safer because its not hidden by the guard and it is always an instant reminder that you must be on your toes. 

Roy


----------



## lowracer (May 22, 2015)

I am also in South Africa, like PaulH. 

basically the only routers available here are plunge routers. yes, there are a few industrial ones with interchangeable bases, but those are really really few and really far in between. And they are expensive. really expensive. So if we "vote with our money" here - we would only buy plunge routers.

I have been able to purchase one fixed base router second-hand, at a reasonable price, but that is meant for fixed mounting (in a old radial arm saw)

I have to agree with harrysin - LOOK AT THE SAFETY ASPECT. and with that I would like to add another variable into the fray - the switch.

to me (my opinion) it is actually quite simple, look for the combination of 3 things:
What do you want to use it for: fixed mount (in a router table, router lathe, Radial arm saw, CNC) or Handheld/Freehand
what type of switch does it have? (on/of or "dead mans switch")
plunge or fixed base

(I have not really thought about the soft start as per harrysin, but that is definitely something to look at if you do freehand, not mounted. )

I see two perfect match combinations 
normal on/of switch with a mounted router (irrespective if it is plunge or not)
dead mans switch, portable routing, plunge router

for me - other combinations are less than optimal. example a dead mans switch in a mounted router, is going to frustrate you like you cannot believe. you will most likely end up putting a hose clamp around the switch, and add another switch. 

similarly, an on-of switch, for portable routing is causing a safety hazard. this is worsened if the blade is exposed like a fixed based router. Where I have seen reviews of fixed base routers, with or without handles, one if the items that are mostly raised is the placement of the switches. 

my routers with on-of switches - all goes towards mounting 
the handheld routers are the ones with a type of dead-mans switch


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

The dead mans switch on a plunge router is the lock/unlock lever a flick of which instantly returns the bit into the safety of the housing.


----------



## Roy Drake (Feb 10, 2014)

The last couple of weeks I had begun to wonder if I were still really getting on the ROUTER Forum - few router projects/pictures. I'm an "old dog trying to learn new tricks". I've got almost everything to learn. I had not previously seen this thread. So, Harry, once again THANKS. Back on track and learning. You really know sure do know how to build/ignite a fire! Old Roy


----------



## lowracer (May 22, 2015)

harrysin said:


> The dead mans switch on a plunge router is the lock/unlock lever a flick of which instantly returns the bit into the safety of the housing.


I know the dead man's switch as the switch where if you let go, it switches off. (like if you by accident get a cramp/heart attach/dog rushes in, and you drop the item, it switches off and stops)

this in in contrast with the on-off switch, where if power is interrupted, it stays "on" or rather "ready". there is a very "comical" story about the guy who was working with his belt sander when the power tripped. so he went inside, and switched the power back on. the sander immediately came to live, ran across the workbench, over onto the bmw, where it reached the end of the tether (power cord) spun around for 5 seconds, until it succeeded in pulling the plug out, and with the last remnants of spinning, went a meter or more on and finally died.

of course, you do get the little "lock" button where you can lock the power switch, and those don't get disconnected when the power is interupted


----------



## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

harrysin said:


> The dead mans switch on a plunge router is the lock/unlock lever a flick of which instantly returns the bit into the safety of the housing.


That is new to me, never seen one of those before.
The only routers I have seen with DMS's are "D" handles and a squeeze switch on the handle knob of the plunge base.
Herb


----------

