# Router bits for Mortise and Tenon project?



## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

I am getting ready to start work on a dining room table which will involve a mortise and tenon breadboard joint and was wondering what types of router bits would work best to do the job.

The breadboard will have a mortise depth of between 2 1/4 and 2 1/2 inches, and will also have a continuous 1/2" groove for a stub tenon. My tenons are going to be 1/2" thick on 1 1/4" sassafras.

This will be my first mortise and tenon joint, so if anyone has any other suggestions I could use the input!


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Welcome to the forum Elley. Those are pretty deep mortices so you may only be able to find straight bits in that length (and at a price you are willing to pay). It should be plunge capable as not all are. Mortices should be slightly deeper than the tenon that will go in them. I would also remove (hog out) most of the waste wood by drilling first. Whiteside Machine has a 2 1/2" cutting depth, 1/2 diameter, 1/2" shank bit that would work. The part # is 1073. Amazon is usually a good place to look for the best deal.


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## Quillman (Aug 16, 2010)

Way too deep & too many for routing.
Time for power tool purchase (Morticer).


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

which style are you gong with???

https://www.google.com/search?q=bre...kewoodworking.com%2F%3Ftag%3D%2Fvideo;320;240


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

windhollowfarm said:


> I am getting ready to start work on a dining room table which will involve a mortise and tenon breadboard joint and was wondering what types of router bits would work best to do the job.
> 
> The breadboard will have a mortise depth of between 2 1/4 and 2 1/2 inches, and will also have a continuous 1/2" groove for a stub tenon. My tenons are going to be 1/2" thick on 1 1/4" sassafras.
> 
> This will be my first mortise and tenon joint, so if anyone has any other suggestions I could use the input!


got dado blade and table saw???
slot cutter for the router???


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## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Stick486 said:


> got dado blade and table saw???
> slot cutter for the router???


No to the dado blade, table saw and slot cutter - I am hoping to do this with my router, jigsaw, and various hand tools. My BIL has a table saw, but the table top is going to be over 80" long. Thinking of something similar to the pic attached, but was thinking of doing 5 tenons rather than 3.


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## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Thank you for the info, Charles!
I will do some searching. The breadboard is 5 1/2" right now, but I could rip it down to less so the mortise doesn't need to be as deep. It's quite a large table top - finishing around 34" x 87"


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

To be honest Elley, my first thought when I read your first post was the same as Quillman. A morticing machine or drill press morticing attachment would be the best. However, you would have to mount it in an open window and hang the boards outside to do 80". Still, those are really deep mortices. If I were going to try and do that with a router I would try and have almost all the waste wood removed and just do a light finish cut with the router and probably in stages of depth. This isn't a particularly easy task.

I would tend to go at least partly like Stick is suggesting and use a table saw. You can easily make a deep groove with a table saw and tenons are easily done with a straight router bit to almost any length you want them.

Have a good look at the pictures in Stick's link. It shows in one picture glue being applied only to the middle of the assembly. The table is going to expand and contract across it's width with seasonal humidity changes so you have to allow it to move or you will get cracked boards and joints. I really like the idea of the dovetail in the one picture but it is a much more difficult job.


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## Semipro (Mar 22, 2013)

I guess I am missing something normally you only bread board the end, are doing the whole circumference of the table.
Is this solid wood table or hardwood plywood center, if solid wood do your machining before glueing your top up, material will be easier to handle.
I also believe that you could cut down the size of mortice and tenon and still use a 5 1/2" bread board


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## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Thank you all so much for the input and help! I will be doing some research on how to remove the waste wood, and do some practice work before working on the good wood. I'm making myself a list so I don't forget any steps.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

windhollowfarm said:


> No to the dado blade, table saw and slot cutter - I am hoping to do this with my router, jigsaw, and various hand tools. My BIL has a table saw, but the table top is going to be over 80" long. Thinking of something similar to the pic attached, but was thinking of doing 5 tenons rather than 3.


get yourself a really good slot cutter and loose tenon the end to the top...
make the tenon so that the grain of the tenon is in line w/ the top... 

Loose Tenon Joinery - Woodworking Techniques - American Woodworker

Loose Tenon Breadboard Ends Demonstration

or use a straight bit and a router guide... an up spiral would be a better choice..
clamp a thick smooth board to the table's top and flush to the edge to gain more rest for the router to prevent the router from tipping... do the same for the end...
set the edge guide so that the router bit is centered to the top's slab... you will be cutting with the router 90º to the top and for the end piece also...
you can hog out the bulk of material with a drill bit that is 1/8 to 3/16" less than the size of the slot you choose...

or use a straight or planer bit to mill the tenon in the top working from the top and then bottom... make sure you use a guide to prevent the router from "walking" and ruining something...
cut.. move the guide.. cut again... and so on...
you can hog material here by cutting kerfs w/ a circular saw... break or chisel away the ribs left by the saw.. don't do it w/ the router... bad things can happen... also, try not to get ahead of yourself in any operation... no short cuts allowed...

Note... this operation shortens the top by the length of the tenons...

use the added thickness deal to to cut the mortise in the end piece... do it better and add a thickness to the bottom as well...
make sure nothing will move in any direction...
clamp well...

hope this is all clearer than mud...


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## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

John, yes, the breadboard is going along the width of the table - 34". The top has already been glued and planed by the local hardwood specialist. I'm just trying to figure out the best way to do this with the tools that I can use. I had read that the tenon needs to go almost to the middle of the joining board (breadboard in my case), but that is just what I found by scouring the internet.


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## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Thank you, Stick! Very clear (am printing this out) and somehow I had missed the first link that you posted when I was trying to find more info about the whole process.

What would be the reason to do loose tenons vs. the regular tenons? Also, my BIL was wondering why I wasn't just doing one long mortise and one long tenon down the width, and I didn't have a good answer. Is one way better than the other? 

I did find a Freud 1/2" x 2 1/2" double flute straight bit - but if I should use an up spiral bit I will search out one of those.

And I will be doing this very carefully.
Thank you everyone for all the help and input - I really appreciate it!


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

If you were to do one long tenon of equal width you could just clamp a pair of boards across the glued up top as far back from the ends as you want the tenon to be wide + the distance between the edge of the bit and the edge of the router base. You will need to make sure the guide boards are square to the top and that the edges the router will run against are exactly the same distance from the end. Then you make a pass with a straight bit starting at the end and work your way back to the guide board. This is about the simplest method I can think of for doing that job. Because you will be taking equal cuts from both faces of the top, the tenon will be dead center. I would cut the mortice first and fit the tenon to it. Remember if you go this way that every depth adjustment is times 2.


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## Semipro (Mar 22, 2013)

Elley
Here is a video may help you, you could use hand held and straight edge to make your tenons,still think if you can get the tenon over a 1 1/2" it would definitely be enough to hold that breadboard on for you
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8oyHjZj_ScY&autoplay=1


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

windhollowfarm said:


> Thank you, Stick! Very clear (am printing this out) and somehow I had missed the first link that you posted when I was trying to find more info about the whole process.
> 
> What would be the reason to do loose tenons vs. the regular tenons? Also, my BIL was wondering why I wasn't just doing one long mortise and one long tenon down the width, and I didn't have a good answer. Is one way better than the other?
> 
> ...


so which bread board end style are you going to do??? see my earlier link for types...
post a picture..

loose over fixed tenon... it only has to do with what tools you have at your disposal and if you have top length to sacrifice...

Note: 
w/ a loose tenon grain orientation of the tenon matters a great deal...
1-1/2" (2" tops) of M&T should be fine...
total length of the two fixed tenons - deduct from the finished length of the top..

up spiral is my 1st choice for the mortises...

in these other links where a TS and dado cutter is used to make the fixed tenons you'll be using a router instead...

this whole operation can be done w/ only a few tools...

Note: the more support you have for the router the better off you'll be... make what you are cutting temporarily thicker for the router operation on the mortise cuts...
not necessary for the fixed tenon cuts...

Straight Edge Clamps - Peachtree Woodworking Supply
wide straight bit..
I like my Freuds

Also:
always practice set ups and cutting on scrap...
as a rule of thumb the tenon thickness should be approximately 1/3 or a fuzz more but not less than the thickness of the top... you could go up to 1/2 the thickness for 5/4 thick or better material... what you choose work in normal measures (multiples of 1/16") and avoid 32nd's and 64th's.. saves on the headaches...
for fixed tenon cut your mortise 1st and fit the tenon to the mortise...
for floating tenon - double mortises will take care of much on their own...
shoulder cut the ends of the tenons and do not bottom them out... 
snug to a ever so slightly loose fit matters.. tight fits are a no go... gotta leave room for wood movement...
use slotted dowel pins or screws to fasten the bread board end to the top.. avoid glue/fixed hole screws/nails etc....

okay...
so what did I leave out???


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## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Wow - thank you all! I have learned so much! Stick, I don't think you have left out a thing - very clear, down to all the steps. Right now, I see that I have three choices: one long tenon, regular tenons, or loose tenons. The attached drawn pic is what I was thinking originally, except including a stub tenon (correct term? shown in 2nd pic). If there is something off, let me know. I would still use the measurements for the tenons and such regardless of which option. Stick, is that what you meant by which end style? But I can see that with routing, the mortise edges would be rounded - and if I shape the tenons as I was thinking, the edges of the tenons would be squared. It seems as if the two should match?

If I can get away with a shorter mortise depth, that makes it a little easier. I had read that the mortise depth should be 5x the thickness of the tenon, or approx. half the depth of the breadboard - but I am happy to make it less deep! I am a little unsure of how I would physically rout the mortises in the table top for loose tenons, since I would need to rout sideways, but it might be a moot point since I haven't even used a router yet, and I am planning on using some type of guide or jig with clamps.

I do have some table top length to play with, so can choose any of the three methods - just need to choose which one would be the most feasible and strongest. Also attaching pic of the router I have, as well as the guide.

Which, brings me to another question, is one long tenon as strong as regular tenons?

I am going to try and get some practicing in this week or next, and that is going to help make the decision. If the table turns out, I will post a pic - if it doesn't, there will be a pic of a shorter table w/o breadboards!


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## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Sorry about that - seems as if I can only upload one pic at a time. Router I will be using, previous pic was the guide.


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## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Original mortise and tenon plan.


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## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Pic of something similar from Stick's google images search.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

I see that I have three choices: one long tenon, regular tenons, or loose tenons. 
*one long tenon, by far the easiest...
do you mind seeing the tenon in the finished product or would you prefer to have it invisible???
regular tenons, more work and lay out accuracy is mandatory... not for a 1st timer w/o a lot of practice..
loose tenons, medium difficulty but very doable..*

The attached drawn pic is what I was thinking originally, 
*will address this when I get to that post*

except including a stub tenon (correct term? shown in 2nd pic). 
*don't do it.. a stub tenon is just a short tenon and the weakest of the bunch*

http://www.woodsmith.com/files/issues/146/stub-tenon-and-groove-joinery.pdf

If there is something off, let me know. 
*huh???*

Stick, is that what you meant by which end style?
*the 1st link given has a bazillion pictures of bread boarding - pick....
see the attachments*

But I can see that with routing, the mortise edges would be rounded - and if I shape the tenons as I was thinking, the edges of the tenons would be squared. It seems as if the two should match?
*at 1/2" M&T's it won't really matter.. if it does all you need is two very sharp chisels.. one at 1/2" wide and the other at least 1" wide or wider*

If I can get away with a shorter mortise depth, that makes it a little easier. 
*what is top width the of your bread board end??? *

I had read that the mortise depth should be 5x the thickness of the tenon, or approx. half the depth of the breadboard - 
*gotta know the width of the BB...*

but I am happy to make it less deep! I am a little unsure of how I would physically rout the mortises in the table top for loose tenons, since I would need to rout sideways, but it might be a moot point since I haven't even used a router yet, and I am planning on using some type of guide or jig with clamps.
*If this is the way you want to go we can cover all the bases in detail...*

I do have some table top length to play with, so can choose any of the three methods - just need to choose which one would be the most feasible and strongest. 
*full tenon...
will this joint be supported by the table's frame work or hanging out in free space???*

Also attaching pic of the router I have, as well as the guide.
*thanks and what is the exact width of the router's base.. gotta know...*

Which, brings me to another question, is one long tenon as strong as *(several?)* regular tenons?
*Gorilla stronger...*

I am going to try and get some practicing in this week or next, and that is going to help make the decision. 
*So let's figure cut to the chase and figure out what you would like to do...*If the table turns out, I will post a pic - if it doesn't, there will be a pic of a shorter table w/o breadboards!


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

windhollowfarm said:


> Original mortise and tenon plan.


Make life simple, go with the full length M&T... shoulder cut the two outside ends...
*do not* off set the mortise slot....
with wood movement and stresses you are setting yourself up a possible failure....


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Elley...
hopefully you will answer my questions and help narrow this down to what matters....
the shear volumes of collected information for everything and all the different procedures
processes can get to be very daunting....

do you own a low angle block plane???


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

forgot the attachments...


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

This would be handy...


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## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

*one long tenon, by far the easiest...do you mind seeing the tenon in the finished product or would you prefer to have it invisible??? * I don't mind either way.

*don't do it.. a stub tenon is just a short tenon and the weakest of the bunch*
Thanks! Won't do it. Great PDF.
http://www.woodsmith.com/files/issues/146/stub-tenon-and-groove-joinery.pdf

If there is something off, let me know. 
*huh???* I was referring to my measurements on the hand drawn - I couldn't find any info on how far apart to space the tenons or how wide they should be, so I was guessing. I did read in the info that has been posted in this thread that loose tenons are usually 1 1/2 - 2" wide, which was helpful.

*the 1st link given has a bazillion pictures of bread boarding - pick....
see the attachments* yup, I attached a pic on my previous post - it was the fourth pic.

*at 1/2" M&T's it won't really matter.. if it does all you need is two very sharp chisels.. one at 1/2" wide and the other at least 1" wide or wider* Thank you!

*what is top width the of your bread board end??? * 5 1/2"

will this joint be supported by the table's frame work or hanging out in free space???[/B]. Free space

*thanks and what is the exact width of the router's base.. gotta know...* base on DeWalt site is 6" - but I can double check that measurement later today.

*Gorilla stronger...* lol, that sounds great - I have six children.  Thank you so much for all your patience!


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## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Stick486 said:


> Make life simple, go with the full length M&T... shoulder cut the two outside ends...
> *do not* off set the mortise slot....
> with wood movement and stresses you are setting yourself up a possible failure....


Could you post a pic of *shoulder cut the two outside ends*? And not sure what you mean by off set on the mortise slot?


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## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Stick486 said:


> Elley...
> hopefully you will answer my questions and help narrow this down to what matters....
> the shear volumes of collected information for everything and all the different procedures
> processes can get to be very daunting....
> ...


No, I could check with my father-in-law, he might possibly have one.


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## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Stick486 said:


> This would be handy...


Wow - that is nice.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

windhollowfarm said:


> Could you post a pic of *shoulder cut the two outside ends*? And not sure what you mean by off set on the mortise slot?


the shoulder cut is nothing more than removing a small portion on the edge of the tenon forming a notch so that the tenon is hidden when the BB end is installed......

in your drawing you show 3/8-1/2-5/8" measures... the center line of the mortise is offset by 1/8"....
it should show/read/be 1/2-1/2-1/2".. strongly recommended...


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

at 5-1/2" of BB end width in free space go with at least a 2-1/2" long tenon...

with kids and the BB end in free space...
I *strongly* suggest that you go with the full length M&T...


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## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Stick486 said:


> the shoulder cut is nothing more than removing a small portion on the edge of the tenon forming a notch so that the tenon is hidden when the BB end is installed......


Got it! How do you know how much to remove, or what would be considered a small portion?



Stick486 said:


> your drawing you show 3/8-1/2-5/8" measures... the center line of the mortise is offset by 1/8"....
> it should show/read/be 1/2-1/2-1/2".. strongly recommended...


My bad - my handwriting must not be very clear from the scan - it should say 3/8-1/2-3/8. The BB is a hair under 1 1/4" thick. I could also do 1/2-3/8-1/2. I wasn't sure which would be best.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

windhollowfarm said:


> Got it! How do you know how much to remove, or what would be considered a small portion?
> 
> My bad - my handwriting must not be very clear from the scan - it should say 3/8-1/2-3/8. The BB is a hair under 1 1/4" thick. I could also do 1/2-3/8-1/2. I wasn't sure which would be best.


small portion..
1/2 to 3/4"...

The moment the 1st kid does a body lift on the end of the table you'll appreciate the 1/2-3/8-1/2 measure.... 

what species of wood are you using???


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## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Stick486 said:


> The moment the 1st kid does a body lift on the end of the table you'll appreciate the 1/2-3/8-1/2 measure....


I hear you. Any suggestions as to what size and kind of router bit should I use for the long tenon? Would this work? I am assuming that I need a 1/2" depth, but not sure on the diameter.











Stick486 said:


> what species of wood are you using???


Sassafras - I realize not the hardest of wood.










With the full length M&T, how large should the glue area be and how many pins? Table is 34" wide. And I am assuming that you glue both sides of the tenon in the center?

I realize I am getting a little off-topic from my original question, but would like to keep all the info in one place.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

that bit will work tenon...
what did you find to cut the mortise???
dowel pins or screws, no glue but that's me...

*Sassafras*
Name Sassafras (sassafras albidum)
Type Hardwood.
Other Names Also known as red sassafras, saxifrax, and cinnamon wood.
Sources Grows in Ontario and eastern half of United States.
Appearance Straight, coarse grained with coarse texture and medium luster. Yellowish white sapwood and pale brown heartwood, deepening to dull orange-brown with exposure. Resembles black ash.
Physical Props Somewhat light, soft, *brittle, and relatively weak,* with good decay resistance and dimensional stability in use.
Working Props Works well with machine or hand tools. Pre-drilling recommended for screws and nails. Glues, stains, and finishes satisfactorily.
Uses Used for inexpensive furniture, boxes, crates, small boats, fence posts (due to decay resistance), rails, cooperage, and general mill-work.
Comments Most sassafras trees are too small to yield significant quantities of lumber. 

you might want to consider narrowing down the width of the BB end an inch or two...
you might want to consider supporting the end of the top...
Brittle also means that as you work you will encounter splintering... so we need to plan for that...

will you be getting a clamp on edge guide like in the Peachtree link??? suggest you leave Bora and Woodriver brands on the shelf at the store... HF too...

I'm going fishing...
see ya later...


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## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Stick486 said:


> that bit will work tenon...
> what did you find to cut the mortise???


For 3/8" dm this is what I found:








Not long enough, but I may have addressed the BB support issue further on. I did find a freud double flute bit 1/2"x2 1/2" - but no up spiral bits that deep.



Stick486 said:


> *Sassafras*
> Name Sassafras (sassafras albidum) *brittle, and relatively weak,*


So, not the best for this project - but probably better than pine which was my other option. I'll know for next time! 



Stick486 said:


> you might want to consider narrowing down the width of the BB end an inch or two...
> you might want to consider supporting the end of the top...
> Brittle also means that as you work you will encounter splintering... so we need to plan for that...


I was able to come up with an idea on how to gain support for the BB ends by extending the apron length through the sides of the table and have attached it at the end of this post. Do you think it would work? Not sure on how I would attach the apron ends to the BB though. Also sharing original plan - not following totally since my wood dimensions are a little different and wasn't able to do the same BB lengths.











Stick486 said:


> will you be getting a clamp on edge guide like in the Peachtree link??? suggest you leave Bora and Woodriver brands on the shelf at the store... HF too...


I have this one, and will definitely keep the PT ones in mind:


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

A bunch of suggestions... Remember there always plan "B's"...

Same page reference..

Parts of a Table | Prop Agenda



windhollowfarm said:


> So, not the best for this project - but probably better than pine which was my other option. I'll know for next time!


CVGF would have had it's own issues...
Sassafras is fine, plan for it and it's way more stable than pine... 



windhollowfarm said:


> I was able to come up with an idea on how to gain support for the BB ends by *extending the apron length through the sides of the table *and have attached it at the end of this post. Do you think it would work? *Not sure on how I would attach the apron ends to the BB* though. Also sharing original plan - not following totally since my wood dimensions are a little different and wasn't able to do the same BB lengths.


great idea.. now add two more "aprons" making it four and centered across the width.... the two flat intermediates done in "H" stretcher style w/ the outboard/rim aprons and the two stretchers done vertically.... the strength factor just increased dramatically...
use half laps instead of notches like you show... no mechanical fasteners or glue... just a snug fitting joint...
fasten the vertical intermediate stretchers to the outboard aprons using shallow (1/4") dadoes cut into he apron pieces.. doweling or pocket screws (both - two dowels and one screw) would work well to put this joint together... space the CL of the stretchers evenly across the length....
Fasten the intermediate aprons to the stretchers using horizontal dadoes and pocket holes at the ends of the apron pieces into the stretcher... shallow dado the stretcher..... 
Attachment of the apron ends to the BB??? let gravity do the work....
*what is the planned material dimensions (end - ie, 2x4?) of the apron assembly???
are those 4x4's for the leg assembly and what species are they??? Solid members or built up???
How do you plan on attaching the table top to the perimeter apron???*

This table of yours is a M&T dream....


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Hope some of this helps....
questions...
ask away...

*WOOD MOVEMENT CALCULATOR:*
http://www.woodworkerssource.com/movement.php

*Sawn wood differences:*

*Plane Sawn*
This is the simplest method. The log is squared and sawed lengthwise. Knots that occur are round or oval -shaped and have relatively little weakening effect on the lumber. The annual rings appear as approximately straight lines running across grain. The lines join at the bottom, forming a U-shape; however, this part is sometimes cut off. Wood cut this way shrinks and swells very little in thickness....

*Quarter Sawn*
Wood cut by this method is called "quarter sawn if it is hardwood. If it is softwood it is called "edge grained" or "vertical grained". The log is sawed into quarters, then into boards. The angle between the cut and the growth rings varies from 90 degrees to about 45 degrees. In such wood, the lines formed by the rings run with the grain. Again they will appear as relatively straight or as U-shaped, depending upon how much is cut off. Such lumber shrinks and swells less in width and warps less than plain-sawn lumber.

*Rift Sawn*
The logs are sawed at not less than 35 or more than 65 degrees to the annual rings, usually at about 45 degrees. In wood sawed this way, the rings appear as longitudinal lines. Rays always run longitudinally and are longer than lumber cut by the other methods....
The quarter sawn boards From an Oak tree will have the characteristic “Tiger Stripes” found only in quarter sawn lumber and will generally have less movement (shrinkage) when drying. The way the cells are aligned will cause the quarter sawn board to shrink a little bit in width and very little in thickness. 
Quarter sawn boards are also much less prone to warping.
Plain sawn boards have grain in multiple directions, this will cause uneven drying and in turn cause the board to warp (cup, twist, and bow). The shrinkage rate is also much more pronounced in plain sawn boards. Due to the grain's orientation in the board, the board will shrink considerably in thickness as well as width.
The quartered lumber will mainly swell in width, and the plain sawn lumber will swell in width and thickness and possibly even warp.
Besides the stability, (and sometimes ray fleck that is displayed), another great feature of quarter sawn lumber is if you have to glue up boards for a larger sized panel the grain is easily matched to look seamless.

*Characteristics of wood:*

The deep, often-dark bins of a hardwood retailer aren't always the best environment for choosing the perfect board for your project. Without unstacking and restacking hundreds of pounds of lumber, your best view of the wood is often a small cross-section of end grain. How much can you really tell about the wood with just that glimpse? We sliced into a walnut log to get some answers.
Want to know what a work-from-home day looks like for WOOD designers Kevin Boyle and John Olson? Hint: It involves this log and a bandsaw mill. woodmagazine.com/loglessons

Like a palm reader who can tell your whole life story by looking at the lines in your hand, you can learn the story of the board from the end-grain lines. As you can see right, reading the curvature of the growth rings lets you estimate the size of the tree, where the board came from in the tree, as well as letting you predict what that means for the grain appearance and stability of the board.

*Dealing with wood defects*
•*Bow Defect 
•*Crook Defect 
•*Cup Defect 
•*Twist Defect 
•*Checks, Shakes, and Knots 

*Crook Defect *

For boards with severe crook, options exist. You can crosscut the board into shorter pieces, then joint each. You also can rip off the crooked edge at the tablesaw using a long carrier board,, Or snap a straight line on the board, cut it with a handheld circular saw, then joint the edge smooth.,,, 

*Twist Defect* 

A severely twisted board is difficult to save. You may salvage short pieces, though, by using a combination of the methods described for crook defects...

*Bow Defect *

Salvage a bowed board by crosscutting it into shorter sections, matching the lengths of pieces to the curve of the board. Test setups or finishes with areas too bowed to produce flat stock. You may be able to create small parts, such as cleats or spacers, from the bowed pieces.... 

*Cup Defect *

Rip a wide, cupped board into narrow flat sections, as shown in Photo B, below right. Rip each piece slightly wider than you need, then re-rip or joint the edges square to the face. You even can glue these sections back together to create a wide board...

*Checks, Shakes, and Knots *

Cracks occur at the ends of boards, so you may simply cut off the bad areas. But don't be too hasty. Good narrow pieces often exist on either side of a check.
Shakes, because of their orientation, usually have to be cut off. Be leery of boards with excessive shake. This may be a result of the board simply being dropped on one end, but shakes also can be a sign of improper drying.
Knots: If they're tightly held in the wood, knots usually pose just appearance problems. Use these boards in inconspicuous places where the knots won't show. Loose knots, on the other hand, may fall out or be pulled free by cutting bits and blades. Cut out and discard areas with loose knots. If you wish to keep the accent of the knot, glue it in place...

*Wood Moisture*

Even the driest wood can change shape due to moisture, no matter what you do to it. But you can learn what to expect.
Where you'll find the water
Wood remains dimensionally stable if its moisture content is above the fiber saturation point (FSP). The FSP is the condition where the wood's cell walls are completely wet, but the cavities within the cell walls are dry. If the wood loses moisture from the cell walls, it shrinks. If the cell walls gain moisture, the wood swells.

How wood shrinks Unlike a dissolving sugar cube, a block of wood doesn't behave the same in all directions as it shrinks. As shown in the illustration, wood shrinks most in the direction of the annual growth rings (tangentially). It shrinks about half that much across the growth rings (radially). And shrinkage with the grain (longitudinal) is minimal. The result: Combined radial and tangential shrinkage distorts the shape of any piece of wood because of the difference in the two shrinkage rates and the way the annual rings curve. A number of variables affect how and to what degree wood shrinks, But in general, the denser the wood, the more it shrinks.

*Wood Movement*

Take wood movement into account Experience taught woodworkers of old how to deal with wood's dimensional changes due to moisture. The answer was joinery that allowed for seasonal wood movement. And despite today's super-strong glues and moisture-fighting finishes, that's still the answer.
Frame-and-panel construction for cabinet and doors, wall panels, and sections of furniture, for instance, didn't come about by accident. Joiners, as woodworkers were called centuries ago, figured out that a rectangular panel could be maintained in position with a solidly secured frame of wood. However, the panel must not be glued or nailed in place in the frame. Instead, it has to "float" in grooves, free to shrink and swell with changes in atmospheric moisture.
Today, some professional woodworkers talk about "nickel and dime reveals" on flush-fitting cabinet doors and drawers. These refer to the space you should leave between the wood that you expect will shrink or swell -- the doors or drawers -- and the carcase or frame of the piece. "If you build in winter, make the reveal the thickness of a nickel," they say. That leaves room for the wood to swell when the humidity goes up. On the other hand, "Build in summer, use a dime," means that you're allowing for the shrinkage that will come in winter.

*Wood shrinkage*

What shrinkage does to wood Woodworkers call the change in shape of a piece of wood warp. And it takes several common forms, all of which distort the wood.A board has cup when it is no longer flat from edge to edge. Cup always occurs in the opposite direction of a flatsawn board's annual growth rings.
Bow, as its name implies, describes the lengthwise curvature of a board -- end to end along its face.
When a board has crook, all the curvature runs from end to end along its edge.
Twist means that all of a board's corners won't lie equally flat.
Although not a distortion like any form of warp, checking refers to small splits along the grain. You'll most often see checks in the ends of boards, but they can occur on surfaces, too. That's because as wood dries, it loses moisture along its length about 10 times faster than across its width. So end grain dries more rapidly and shrinks faster, causing these small ruptures.

Wood moves. Because of its unique structure, it’s constantly expanding and contracting. And you must cope with this movement in every project you build.
*
*MOISTURE CONTENT AND MOVEMENT*

Wood moves as its moisture content changes. In a tree that’s just been felled, the wood is “green” — sap fills the cell cavities. This free water (as the sap is sometimes called) accounts for 72 percent of the total moisture content, although this percentage may vary from species to species. The remaining 28 percent saturates the wood fibers in the cell walls. This bound water in the fibers causes them to swell, just as a sponge swells when you wet it.
As the green wood dries, the free water evaporates first, then the bound water. The wood is dimensionally stable (it doesn’t shrink or swell noticeably) as it loses free water, but once it begins to lose bound water, it contracts.
Wood dries to an average moisture content of between 4 and 11 percent, depending on the area of the country, but it never really comes to rest! The amount of bound water in the wood continually changes with the amount of moisture in the surrounding atmosphere. On the average, wood gains or loses about 1 percent moisture content for every 5 percent change in the relative humidity.

In green wood, free water fills the cell cavities and bound water saturates the fibers in the cell walls. As it dries, the free water evaporates first, then the bound water. The wood doesn’t move until it begins to lose bound water.*

Humidity -- Wood doesn’t always move with changes in humidity, just the relative humidity. The relative humidity is the ratio of the actual moisture in the air (absolute humidity) to the maximum amount of moisture the air will hold at its present temperature. The warmer the air, the more moisture it will hold. Because of this, it’s possible for the absolute humidity to change while the relative humidity remains the same. If both the absolute humidity and the air temperature rise at the same time, the relative humidity will remain constant — and the wood won’t move.

The moisture content of the wood varies with the relative humidity of the surrounding air, as this chart shows. Once the wood has been dried, the moisture content never again rises above 28 percent (its fiber saturation point) from the effects of humidity alone. For this to happen, the wood must be immersed in water.*

The wood fibers swell as they absorb moisture and shrink as they release it, causing the wood to expand and contract. In the Northern Hemisphere, relative humidity increases in the summer and decreases in the winter. And due to the effects of heating and air conditioning, the relative humidity is generally different indoors than out. Additionally, the relative humidity may vary from one building to another if the indoor temperatures differ. Consequently, wood tends to move with the seasons or whenever you change its location.

*DIRECTION OF MOVEMENT*

Although it’s constantly expanding and contracting, wood does not move equally in all directions. The grain structure causes it to move differently in three different directions.
Wood is fairly stable along its longitudinal direction, parallel to the grain. Green lumber shrinks only 0.01 percent of its length as it dries. An 8-foot-long board will move only 3/32 inch. 
Wood moves much more across the grain, tangent to the growth rings. Green lumber shrinks as much as 8 percent in this direction. 
But it shrinks only half as much (4 percent) in the radial direction, extending out from the pith along the radius of the growth rings. For this reason, quartersawn lumber is more stable than plain-sawn lumber. Quartersawn lumber is cut radially and moves only half as much across its width as plain-sawn lumber, which is cut tangentially

Wood is fairly stable along its length, moving only 0.01 percent as it loses its bound water. However, (on the average) it moves 8 percent tangentially and 4 percent radially. 

*CHANGING SHAPE*

The difference in tangential and radial movement has other important consequences. Depending on how it’s cut from the tree, a board may change shape as it dries:
If the annual rings run side to side in square stock, the stock will shrink to a rectangle. 
If the rings run diagonally from corner to corner, the stock will become diamond-shaped. 
Round stock becomes oval as the tangential diameter shrinks more than the radial diameter. 
Plain-sawn lumber tends to cup in the opposite direction of the growth rings because the outside face (the face farthest from the pith) shrinks a little faster than the inside face. 
In quartersawn lumber, both faces shrink equally and the board remains flat. 

And there are other forces that may cause a board to move or change shape. Stress sometimes develops in the tree as it grows or in the lumber when it’s improperly dried. Internally stressed wood (called reaction wood) moves when you cut it. Cutting relieves some of the stress, and the wood reacts by changing shape. This is quite different from normal wood movement, however. Once the stress dissipates, it no longer affects the wood. But there’s nothing you can do to stop radial and tangential movement. As long as there’s weather, the boards will continue to shrink and swell.

Because of the difference in tangential and radial movement, boards change shape as they expand and contract. The way in which they change depends on how they are cut from the tree....

*ESTIMATING WOOD MOVEMENT*

It’s also useful to know how much a board is likely to move. You must anticipate the movement when fitting drawers and doors, inserting panels in frames, and dozens of other operations.
The rule of thumb is that if the board shows mostly flat grain on its face, allow for 1⁄4 inch total wood movement for every 12 inches across the grain. If it shows mostly quarter grain, allow for 1⁄8 inch movement. This will accommodate an annual change of 8 percent moisture content — much more than is common in most areas.
Also consider the time of year. Wood shrinks to its smallest dimension in the winter and swells to its maximum in the summer. The wood in winter projects will expand; the wood in summer projects will contract. In the spring and fall, remember that the wood will expand half your total movement allowance and contract the other half...

Quartersawn lumber is more stable than plain-sawn, expanding only half as much across its width. Additionally, quartersawn boards remain relatively flat, while plain-sawn boards tend to cup when they expand and contract.*

The best way to deal with lumber defects is, of course, to avoid questionable boards in the first place. But if a board has great grain, is the only one available that suits your needs, or carries a bargain price, don't reject it just because of a few problems. Use the following tricks to get the most from less-than-perfect lumber.


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## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Stick486 said:


> great idea.. now add two more "aprons" making it four and centered across the width.... the two flat intermediates done in "H" stretcher style w/ the outboard/rim aprons and the two stretchers done vertically.... the strength factor just increased dramatically...
> use half laps instead of notches like you show... no mechanical fasteners or glue... just a snug fitting joint...
> fasten the vertical intermediate stretchers to the outboard aprons using shallow (1/4") dadoes cut into he apron pieces.. doweling or pocket screws (both - two dowels and one screw) would work well to put this joint together... space the CL of the stretchers evenly across the length....


Here is a pic showing the base more clearly, it does have some extra support. I have extra lengths of the 4x4 material, but only two lengths of the material for the outside aprons. Though I could possibly have my BIL rip one of the extra 4x4s in half.









Here is the link to the plan, in case I miss mentioning something.
4x4 table plan

*what is the planned material dimensions (end - ie, 2x4?) of the apron assembly???
are those 4x4's for the leg assembly and what species are they??? Solid members or built up???
How do you plan on attaching the table top to the perimeter apron???*[/QUOTE]
My outside aprons are made from 1 1/4"x3 1/2" sassafras, the legs and all 4x4 base material is 3 1/4"x3 3/4" built up (glued) from 3 layers of sassafras. I was planning on routing slots into the interior of the outside aprons and using tabletop anchors - unless there is a better way. 

How far should the aprons extend into the breadboard? And if I am doing that, does the M&T still need to be as deep?

Thank you!


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Here is a pic showing the base more clearly,
*excellent..*
it does have some extra support. I have extra lengths of the 4x4 material, but only two lengths of the material for the outside aprons.
*suggest you change those out side 5/4 aprons from horizontal to vertical and run them past the 12+/4 apron... this is for maximum strength to support the BB's and the center of the table when the "kids" use the table for a "chair"... make the intersecting joint a half lap...
still add two flat intermediate outriggers in "H stretcher" style construction to support the BB's... again, use half lap joinery, kant the bottoms of the extended aprons and outriggers, either angled or round overed to protect thighs... the 1st time somebody adds their body weight to the BB things will go south*

what is the planned material dimensions (end - ie, 2x4?) of the apron assembly???
are those 4x4's for the leg assembly and what species are they??? Solid members or built up???
How do you plan on attaching the table top to the perimeter apron???[/quote]

My outside aprons are made from 1 1/4"x3 1/2" sassafras, the legs and all 4x4 base material is 3 1/4"x3 3/4" built up (glued) *(this is good - way more stable)* from 3 layers of sassafras. I was planning on routing slots *(dadoes???)* into the interior of the outside aprons and using tabletop anchors - unless there is a better way. 

How far should the aprons extend into *(under)* the breadboard? 
*80%*
And if I am doing that, does the M&T still need to be as deep?
*no, a stub tenon or a bit deeper will be plenty adequate if you can put the M&T joint over the top of the end apron (this would be a very strong plus also)...
just trying to help kid proof this table and give you a few decades of service from it based on table repairs I've made....

Note:
finish the top 1st w/ BB's and then build the frame to fit...*

Thank you!
no problem...


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Note:

with the M&T joint over the end apron, extended side aprons and intermediate out riggers the BB can be made wider for more comfortable adult seating at the ends of the table....


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## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Stick486 said:


> . . still add two flat intermediate outriggers in "H stretcher" style construction to support the BB's...


 Not quite sure what this is, when I did a search, fishing and boats came up. 



Stick486 said:


> (dadoes???)


 I was going to use a slot cutter and use these?











Stick486 said:


> just trying to help kid proof this table and give you a few decades of service from it based on table repairs I've made....


And I really appreciate it, I have learned so much. I know this has turned into a rather long process, but I now am starting to get a better feel for the whole project.

You mentioned being able to help with the splintering, how can I help prevent that from happening?


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

windhollowfarm said:


> still add two flat intermediate outriggers in "H stretcher" style construction to support the BB's... Not quite sure what this is...


in this image the two blue colored aprons are laying flat... turn them 90º to the vertical and extend them past the end apron how ever far you need to give the BB's good support... the free end of the apron that's sticking out there in free space is referred to as an outrigger...
I recommend the connections for edge/end aprons to be a half lap joints....

Note:
all given numbers for this explanation are *only* hypothetical...

let's say the outrigger is 6" long/cantilevered/past the outside edge of the end apron...

now let's figure the additional outriggers...
6" cantilever + thickness of end apron + 12" of inset... (inset = the length of the outrigger that goes under the table top)... this measurement is derived from another rule thumb thing...
to figure out where these two outriggers need to be - measure the inside distance between the two edge aprons and divide by three... this will give you the CL (Center Line) location of the intermediate out riggers.... lay these outriggers flat and not on edge.. half lap them to the end apron...
install that perpendicular cross piece vertically and not flat....

also your selected method of mounting the top is fine... 

add a perpendicular piece at end of the out rigger that goes under the table top and between the center beam and edge apron... that is *"H"* stretcher style construction... tenon joints and pocket screws all around please except for the half laps.. no glue or screws...


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

windhollowfarm said:


> You mentioned being able to help with the splintering, how can I help prevent that from happening?


save that come time you attach the BB's...
i only type 4 or 5 words a minuet...


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

windhollowfarm said:


> Not quite sure what this is, when I did a search, fishing and boats came up.
> 
> I was going to use a slot cutter and use these?


They are designed to fit in a table saw blade cut but a 1/8" slot cutter will do the job too as long as they aren't too far from the edge of the apron which is normally the case. Tabletop Mounting Clamps - Lee Valley Tools 

They shouldn't be too hard to find if you look in a store that specializes in cabinetry and woodworking hardware. I like to cut the slot so that the screws can't pull all the slack out without bending the clip a little. That keeps the top on nice and snug.


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## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> They are designed to fit in a table saw blade cut but a 1/8" slot cutter will do the job too as long as they aren't too far from the edge of the apron which is normally the case. Tabletop Mounting Clamps - Lee Valley Tools


Thank you! I'll be sure to check the distance from the apron edge. The ones from Lee Valley seem a better price, too.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

We ready to make up your BB's???

see these attachments for some tools that will become very handy all the way through your table project... the knife style cutters on the gages will score your wood and help with controlling splintering.... the tools are from LeeValley but there are many other brands out there... the knife blade is nothing more than a lino/vinyl blade that fits in your utility knife... it works extremely well as and is available everywhere... the gages and combination square can be had at he big box stores also... for a marking pencil I like a 0,5mm lead pencil... nice precise lines..

do wish to make the M&T blind or through??? through would be you see the tenon in the finished project and blind you don't...

How you fixed for chisels??? fine toothed pull or back saw??? the big boxes have some fairly nice flush cut Vaughan pull saws and they are not expensive at all...

don't pay any attention to the poly attachment... it was a mistake....


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## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Stick486 said:


> in this image the two blue colored aprons are laying flat... turn them 90º to the vertical and extend them past the end apron how ever far you need to give the BB's good support... the free end of the apron that's sticking out there in free space is referred to as an outrigger...
> I recommend the connections for edge/end aprons to be a half lap joints....


I understand the above. 



Stick486 said:


> let's say the outrigger is 6" long/cantilevered/past the outside edge of the end apron...
> 
> now let's figure the additional outriggers...
> 6" cantilever + thickness of end apron + 12" of inset... (inset = the length of the outrigger that goes under the table top)... this measurement is derived from another rule thumb thing...
> ...


and I understand the math bit, but am a bit lost after that. Either I am being very dense, or over complicating it. 

I've drawn out what I understand so far - am I adding something else under the BB area, and something else under the main tabletop area? Or just under the BB ends.

Sorry for the delay in responding, internet has been up and down.


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## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Stick486 said:


> We ready to make up your BB's???


Ready as I'll ever be I think! Just need to order my router bits, and look for what I don't have by way of the tools you posted - thanks!  Oh, and get comfortable with my router.

I'm thinking the M&T blind.

My chisel is very sad. Any recommendations? I have a fine-tooth pull back saw, and a combination square. I'll look for the cutters and gages - that means I get to go shopping.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

I understand the above. 
*at least somebody does...*

and I understand the math bit, but am a bit lost after that. Either I am being very dense, or over complicating it. 
*6" was an invented number... 
What ever the length of the outrigger is, (your chosen length) at least twice that goes to the inside of the end apron and under the top...*

I've drawn out what I understand so far - am I adding something else under the BB area, and something else under the main tabletop area? Or just under the BB ends.
*your drawing lacks the two outriggers that go between the edge aprons (mathematically spaced).. you will have, end up w/ a total of four outriggers for strength and BB stability...

originally I said "H" style construction but because of the center beam it is actually a "T" style.. picture the inside end of the intermediate outriggers w/ a perpendicular cross member that connects to the center beam and edge apron... the cross member is installed vertically (edge up) and the outrigger flat (face up)... the outrigger/end apron connections are half lap... the outrigger/cross member connections are shallow dadoes... the cross member to edge apron and center beam are shallow (1/4") dadoes also.... pocket screws will work really well for the shallow mortises*

Sorry for the delay in responding, internet has been up and down. 
*no problem - same here*

Ready as I'll ever be I think!
*Good!!!)* 
Just need to order my router bits, and look for what I don't have by way of the tools you posted - thanks!  
*the tools are suggestions.. but do buy the best you an afford...
more fact than fiction - but thinking strictly short term w/ your wallet leads to waste... *

Oh, and get comfortable with my router.
*I hope you have a pile of scraps you can whittle away and make gageing/templates/sizing blocks from....*

I'm thinking the M&T blind.
*okay...*

My chisel is very sad. Any recommendations?
*plenty but they will confirm that I'm over the tool snob's edge...
so have a look at these... consider bevel edge, mortising, skew and paring chisels... 
the Narex are pretty good bang for the buck... I have them even for my small demo hammer... 

Chisels | Wood Chisels

by time you are finished the paring corner and skew chisels will come in very handy...
Stanley Sweethearts are a crud shoot... in fact, low bidder Stanley Sweetheart anything is....
Made in England Stanley Fat Max's are a good bet... I have the largest set and use them regularly... you just may find them on the shelf at Lowes... 
there are real discernible differences here between the made in England and the made in the Asian rim Stanley chisels... 

http://www.amazon.com/Stanley-16-971-6-Piece-FatMax-Chisel/dp/B000B8I9EK

Buck Brothers are mediocre... I don't like them...
Marples are not what they use to be... don't bother.. I have a set that I got for a better than super price (free) and they are not worth the money...
I do not care what anybody says - avoid Asian made... poor steel QC and no two chisels are made alike... also, their endurance leaves much to be desired...
to place myself in your shoes I'd go w/ the English Fat Max's 1st and the Narex 2nd... (larger sets if you can)*

I have a fine-tooth pull back saw, 
*do you have one w/ a stiff back???
see attachment...*
and a combination square.
*make sure it's square* 
I'll look for the cutters and gages - that means I get to go shopping. 

*I love to tool shop and let me know when you want to start fitting your BB's...*

*tool sharpness matters and matters some more... do you wish to get into this too???*

http://www.routerforums.com/tools-woodworking/45220-veritas-mk-ii-honing-guide.html

Veritas® Mk.II Honing Guide - Lee Valley Tools


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

windhollowfarm said:


> I understand the above.
> 
> I've drawn out what I understand so far -


in your drawing you show the M&T joint in free space.. is this the way you plan on doing it???

BTW... those intermediate outriggers can be made from most any hardwood you have at your disposal (I'd do oak or maple)... glue up two layers of 3/4" thick material.... if you use three pieces, you can leave a gap in one layer to give you your half lap joint's mortise/tenon/notch...
at the bottom of the outriggers the will be a sharp edge/corner.. either kant or round these over to save somebody the thigh injury or clothing damage...


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## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Stick486 said:


> in your drawing you show the M&T joint in free space.. is this the way you plan on doing it???


Yes, only because I was only able to get 5 1/2" Boards for the BBs, and we need chair space on the end - and I can only make the table as long as it is, 87" is actually pushing it a bit, but we need the table room. . I am hoping that with the outriggers the joint will be sturdy enough.



Stick486 said:


> BTW... those intermediate outriggers can be made from most any hardwood you have at your disposal (I'd do oak or maple)... glue up two layers of 3/4" thick material.... if you use three pieces, you can leave a gap in one layer to give you your half lap joint's mortise/tenon/notch...
> at the bottom of the outriggers the will be a sharp edge/corner.. either kant or round these over to save somebody the thigh injury or clothing damage...


Got it! And thanks so much for the tool recommendations! I'll start with the ones most needed right now, and add the others to my ever-growing wish list, lol.

I think I understand the outriggers, will need to do some research on how to do the dado joints, but hopefully my drawing of them is correct? (Mostly to scale, one square is 2")


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

let's see if this helps in the tool department...
great joint practice too...


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## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

LOL, my router bit list is growing. Great helps!


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Yes, only because I was only able to get 5 1/2" Boards for the BBs, and we need chair space on the end - 
*would you like to make the BB's wider???*

and I can only make the table as long as it is, 87" is actually pushing it a bit, but we need the table room. . 
*is 87" all the table length you can have (room/space restrictions) or is it all the table you can get (material restrictions/limits or that is all you have)???
if you want more table top and end room for someone we can rethink the joinery...
we can make that BB wider too and the top longer with very little effort...
you'll need a slot cutter.... 
Freud Tools | 2" (Dia.) Stacked Slotting Set*

I am hoping that with the outriggers the joint will be sturdy enough.
*it will...*

Got it! And thanks so much for the tool recommendations! 
*wait till you go through the PDF's....*

I'll start with the ones most needed right now, and add the others to my ever-growing wish list, lol.

*As any woodworker/carpenter/construction body knows. You can't use "do I need it?" as a criteria for buying a new tool. Whether or not you'll even ever use it is besides the point! For all you confused people out there, I will give you the listed reasons for buying a new tool straight from "The Man Bible" Chapter 35 Section 72 Subsection D Paragraph 23 states:

You simply buy a new tool because:

a) It's there

b) You can

I hope this has cleared up any questions any of you may have for buying new tools, and hopefully relieve some of the guilty feelings you may have about purchasing that new tool with the money you should have spent on a new dishwasher for your husband....*

I think I understand the outriggers, will need to do some research on how to do the dado joints,
*dadoes are nothing more than mortises/groves/channels/dadoes cut into one piece of material to receive a perpendicular piece of material...
file:///C:/Users/Marty/Documents/WORK/REFERRENCE%20-%20JOINERY/Dado_%28joinery%29.htm*

but hopefully my drawing of them is correct? (Mostly to scale, one square is 2")
*if I read your drawing correctly the cross member joinery to the outrigger, the edge apron and the center beam is not dadoing... 
believe we already covered this a couple of posts up...*


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## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Stick486 said:


> originally I said "H" style construction but because of the center beam it is actually a "T" style.. picture the inside end of the intermediate outriggers w/ a perpendicular cross member that connects to the center beam and edge apron... the cross member is installed vertically (edge up) and the outrigger flat (face up)... the outrigger/end apron connections are half lap... the outrigger/cross member connections are shallow dadoes... the cross member to edge apron and center beam are shallow (1/4") dadoes also.... pocket screws will work really well for the shallow mortises[/B]


Instead of the shallow dadoes, what should I use?


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## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Stick486 said:


> Yes, only because I was only able to get 5 1/2" Boards for the BBs, and we need chair space on the end -
> *would you like to make the BB's wider???*
> 
> and I can only make the table as long as it is, 87" is actually pushing it a bit, but we need the table room. .
> ...


Both, the wood was a special order/special price - and I can't go any longer because of space restraints, and I need to keep the 64" span in between the table legs so I have enough room for all the chairs.




> *As any woodworker/carpenter/construction body knows. You can't use "do I need it?" as a criteria for buying a new tool. Whether or not you'll even ever use it is besides the point! For all you confused people out there, I will give you the listed reasons for buying a new tool straight from "The Man Bible" Chapter 35 Section 72 Subsection D Paragraph 23 states:
> 
> You simply buy a new tool because:
> 
> ...


LOL!!!


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

to cut short length dadoes all I ever use is a Swanson metal speed square - not plastic, as a guide clamped on to the piece I'm dadoing... 
Speed squares have a bazillion uses..


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

windhollowfarm said:


> Instead of the shallow dadoes, what should I use?


shallow dadoes..


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

windhollowfarm said:


> LOL, my router bit list is growing. Great helps!


you have no idea..


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## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

What size hardwood for the interior outriggers and the perpendicular piece under the tabletop?

And what should my next step be?


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

windhollowfarm said:


> What size hardwood for the interior outriggers and the perpendicular piece under the tabletop?


what do you have on hand except for pine???
quarter saw (QS) white oak (WO) (but not red oak) would be my 1st choice.. very very stable and gorilla strong... 
Rift sawn (RS) leaning to QS grain orientation (be picky) is acceptable if QS/WO is hard to come by or too expensive...

if we do any splineing QS/WO or RS/WO will be 2nd to none for the splines...

5 or 6/4 thick and 2.5 to 3.5" wide... two pieces of 3/4 stock glued up would be made to order and wider is better.. you could do the outrigger glue up so that the half lap notch is built in.. no machining required... don't forget to kant the bottom edges on the outrigger end...

for the perpendicular piece, at least 3/4" to whatever thick and 75% of the height of the edge apron wide... species??? got more oak??? sassafras???
you are going to start a love affair w/ that auto corner chisel - I can see it from here...

leave pine out of this table... in the grand scheme of things it won't behave all that nicely or cooperate the way that you want it to and you may suffer set backs that you will not care for... I would not chance it..

*keep this mind all the way through this table...*

In addition to being hygroscopic (gaining or losing moisture from the surrounding air), wood is also anisotropic. What this means is that wood has different properties depending on the direction or orientation of the grain—it’s not the same in all directions—and one of the areas where this property is most clearly seen is in dimensional shrinkage.

As opposed to a simple sponge or other isotropic material, wood (anisotropic) does not shrink in a perfectly uniform manner, and understanding this will help to avoid some pitfalls in preventing many shrinkage-related defects which may not crop up until months (or even years) after the wood product is finished.

A basic measurement of shrinkage—expressed as a percentage—is the amount that the wood shrinks when going from its green to ovendry state. In other words, since wood in its green state is at its largest dimension, and ovendry represents its driest (and therefore smallest) volume, green to ovendry is a measurement of the maximum possible percentage of shrinkage; this is referred to as the wood’s volumetric shrinkage.

Volumetric shrinkage tells how much a wood species will shrink, but it doesn’t indicate the direction of the shrinkage. The two primary planes or surfaces of wood where shrinkage takes place are across the radial plane, and across the tangential plane, corresponding to radial shrinkage, and tangential shrinkage; these two values, when combined, should roughly add up to the volumetric shrinkage.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

windhollowfarm said:


> And what should my next step be?


Compute the maximum size of the table top and add the bread boards...

place the top on the floor w/ the bread boards placed as intended where the table is going to live... nothing is made up only placed...
set your chairs around the perimeter of the top and start playing...
don't skimp or try to get by.. the moment *""Oh that will be okay""* pops into your head...
Murphy and family will be on hand to help.... falling back and punting will wear you down...
don't forget that there are legs under this top....

backless stools use the least amount of space and chairs w/arms use the most...
quality folding chairs are a thought...
swivel chairs at the ends of the table are great space conservators.... more over hang for you and less floor space used...

w/ the bodies in their seats and pulled up to the table you need 20-22" of space behind the seats at rock bottom.. 18-20" is doable w/effort... keep in mind you do not want to create a trip hazard(s) for the server or somebody w/ their plate of food in hand.. got towels???


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

some questions..

*where is the wood for this table being stored??? *
I pray that it is in a similar climate to where the table will live...
*are the edge aprons long enough or will you need to get longer ones???*
if they are currently too short we can get out the board stretcher and make them fit...
*are you making a list of questions to ask???*


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## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Stick486 said:


> what do you have on hand except for pine???
> quarter saw (QS) white oak (WO) (but not red oak) would be my 1st choice.. very very stable and gorilla strong...
> Rift sawn (RS) leaning to QS grain orientation (be picky) is acceptable if QS/WO is hard to come by or too expensive...
> 
> if we do any splineing QS/WO or RS/WO will be 2nd to none for the splines.


I will need to check what I can find locally - no big box stores here. I'm sure I could find some maple or oak - will have to see what kind it is.

I do have two extra lengths of the 3-1/4"x3-3/4" beams, which if I used those for the outer side aprons that would free up the (2) 1-1/4"x3-1/2" lengths of sassafras for the outriggers and such. Seems like it would make things really heavy though. All my lengths are 96" so I do have a little room to work with.

I seem to think of questions as I work through each step in my brain, so far so good - don't worry there will be more. . And thankfully, for the simple ones there is such a wealth of information found by using the search. I also interlibrary loaned and checked out about 15 woodworking books from the library today. Going to start gathering materials for the mortise jig that you posted. It looked pretty simple to start with. And, I may be repeating this too often, but thank you for all the help!


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## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Stick486 said:


> Compute the maximum size of the table top and add the bread boards...
> 
> place the top on the floor w/ the bread boards placed as intended where the table is going to live... nothing is made up only placed...
> set your chairs around the perimeter of the top and start playing...
> ...


Done! The finished size of the table needs to be 34"x87". It took 9 months to get the wood for the table after I ordered it, so while I was (im)patiently waiting, I went ahead and made individual benches for all the kids. Just from pine, but since I wasn't sure how they would turn out (I can never seem to leave a woodworking plan alone) it was a good project to practice on.

I have learned to listen to that voice, and not to go full bore ahead. I make enough mistakes without Murphy helping.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

windhollowfarm said:


> I will need to check what I can find locally - no big box stores here. I'm sure I could find some maple or oak - will have to see what kind it is.


you are looking for *stable and strong* so add Ash, Hickory, Honduran Mahogany, Ebony, Black Walnut, Teak, Rosewoods and Tigerwood... the list goes on...

With the right cut (quartersawn) even hard maple is stable... With all of these woods, *the straighter the grain, the more stable it is.* We like figured grains esthetically, but straight grain is what you need to use when wood is to be put to work...

Sassafras is stable but not very strong...

glad I won't be within ear shot when you start reading this PDF...

no big boxes... some people have all the luck....


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

windhollowfarm said:


> I do have two extra lengths of the 3-1/4"x3-3/4" beams, which if I used those for the outer side aprons that would free up the (2) 1-1/4"x3-1/2" lengths of sassafras for the outriggers and such. Seems like it would make things really heavy though. All my lengths are 96" so I do have a little room to work with.


here's a kick and another plan....
simplifies too...

if you have long enough sticks in 5/4 for the edge aprons do it.. 
if your center beam can be lengthened to make center of table outriggers too.. do it..
if you do/make the center beam outriggers drop the auxiliary/supplemental ones all together...
on these outriggers do a long kant...

*gotta know...* 
as I understand it you made your 4x4's from 3 laid up pieces of wood... which way does the vertical grain orient in them???

Heavy??? you gonna be moving this table up and downstairs or around the neighborhood much???

Note:
plan "B" came about because plan "A" was awful.. plan "C" was found because plan "B" was a bummer.. and so on... 
pleas take what I say as suggestions.. I don't write in stone, I'm firm believer in pencils and erasers...
this is your table, project and it's you that is the craftsman here.. you have the final say...


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

windhollowfarm said:


> I seem to think of questions as I work through each step in my brain, so far so good - don't worry there will be more. .
> 
> And thankfully, for the simple ones there is such a wealth of information found by using the search.
> I also interlibrary loaned and checked out about 15 woodworking books from the library today.
> ...


- don't worry there will be more. 
*SNORK!!!*

using the search. 
I also interlibrary loaned and checked 
*KUDOS!!!*

mortise jig 
*Baltic Birch...
strong..
stable...
machines well..
holds fasteners really well...
no glue issues...
kinder to cutters...
and it beats the snot out of MDF..*

I may be repeating..
you are very welcome...


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

windhollowfarm said:


> I wasn't sure how they would turn out (I can never seem to leave a woodworking plan alone) it was a good project to practice on.
> 
> I have learned to listen to that voice, and not to go full bore ahead. I make enough mistakes without Murphy helping.


the benches...
*got pictures...*

that voice...
*Kudos again...*


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## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Stick486 said:


> the benches...
> *got pictures...*


Latest project from 2x4,2x2, and 1x pine and adapted from the plan link - made 6. I wanted something that would complement the table and also work until we find chairs, I also didn't want to hear arguing about how far a long bench was pushed in. . My joints have improved from previous projects, and are a much tighter fit. This is before sanding and finishing.

Bench Plan


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

windhollowfarm said:


> Latest project from 2x4,2x2, and 1x pine and adapted from the plan link - made 6. I wanted something that would complement the table and also work until we find chairs, I also didn't want to hear arguing about how far a long bench was pushed in. . My joints have improved from previous projects, and are a much tighter fit. This is before sanding and finishing.
> 
> Bench Plan


you need to send that to Rainman....
do a show and tell on his butt - this is how it's suppose to be done - bud...
other wise it's just too nice to use...


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## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Stick486 said:


> if you have long enough sticks in 5/4 for the edge aprons do it..
> if your center beam can be lengthened to make center of table outriggers too.. do it..
> if you do/make the center beam outriggers drop the auxiliary/supplemental ones all together...
> on these outriggers do a long kant...


Yup, and that sounds as if it would simplify things. So would I use half lap joinery with the center beam as well? Just trying to get a clear picture in my head.



> as I understand it you made your 4x4's from 3 laid up pieces of wood... which way does the vertical grain orient in them???


If I am understanding correctly, the vertical grain is going lengthwise. Will be pposting a pic of the end grain and small portion of side.



> Heavy??? you gonna be moving this table up and downstairs or around the neighborhood much???


lol! I won't be the one moving it!



> plan "B" came about because plan "A" was awful.. plan "C" was found because plan "B" was a bummer.. and so on...
> pleas take what I say as suggestions.. I don't write in stone, I'm firm believer in pencils and erasers...
> this is your table, project and it's you that is the craftsman here.. you have the final say...


The best plans come after a lot of erasing - and while I may have the final decision, it's always nice to know the how's and why's. Just ordered some basic Freud router bits and hoping to get some practice in on the router as soon as they come in.


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## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

End grain pic


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Yup, and that sounds as if it would simplify things. 
*certainly will*....

So would I use half lap joinery with the center beam as well? 
*correct*

Just trying to get a clear picture in my head.
*could you post a picture that would help me out???*

If I am understanding correctly, the vertical grain is going lengthwise. Will be posting a pic of the end grain and small portion of side.
*Orientation as in L-R/T-B.... (left to right/top to bottom)...
simpler - post a picture of the end of the 4x4...
oriented so that the widest measure shows as tall (up and down), narrowest as wide (left to right)...
just trying to figure out the strengths and weaknesses of the 4x4's*

lol! I won't be the one moving it!
*me either...*

The best plans come after a lot of erasing - 
*yup...*


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

windhollowfarm said:


> End grain pic



WOW!!! that was fast...
is that pyramid piece a drop from a leg???
have you built the frame or cut all of the components???

What joinery are you planing on using on the frame???


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## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Stick486 said:


> WOW!!! that was fast...
> is that pyramid piece a drop from a leg???
> have you built the frame or cut all of the components???
> 
> What joinery are you planing on using on the frame???


lol, For some reason I can only post one attachment at a time with a tablet.

Yes, it's a scrap piece from a leg. Before I started asking how to work the top, I cut the legs and and end pieces, nothing of the tabletop or aprons have been touch. I was excited. . But I do have extra wood, so I can do some joinery on them. I was just going to kreg-jig the rest of the frame together.

What type of simple joinery would work on the rest of the frame? I have been looking at some amazing workmanship online - there is beautiful work done.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

windhollowfarm said:


> What type of simple joinery would work on the rest of the frame? I have been looking at some amazing workmanship online - there is beautiful work done.


since the pieces are cut - fixed and floating tenons w/visible pins and some doweling...
you are going to quickly discover that there are limits to pocket hole joinery even if you use GRK type screws in 4x4 construction...

how's your large dowel inventory and forstner bit collection???


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## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Stick486 said:


> since the pieces are cut - fixed and floating tenons w/visible pins and some doweling...
> you are going to quickly discover that there are limits to pocket hole joinery even if you use GRK type screws in 4x4 construction...
> 
> how's your large dowel inventory and forstner bit collection???


I also have the kregHD and larger screws, if that helps with the 4x4s.

Um, no type of collection at all. I did find a supplier on the net where I could find sassafras dowels for the BB pins. Do I need to keep the dowel material the same as the table?


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

windhollowfarm said:


> I also have the kregHD and larger screws, if that helps with the 4x4s.
> 
> Um, no type of collection at all. I did find a supplier on the net where I could find sassafras dowels for the BB pins. *Do I need to keep the dowel material the same as the table?[*/QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Stick486 said:


> large dowels, say 1 or 1-1/4" in dia, for the floating tenons for the frame would be a serious work saver.... wood closet rod is probably the easiest to find...
> make life easier too...
> 
> one of these wouldn't hurt either...


Ahh - I can find wood closet rods locally. And I was just looking at one of those drilling jigs - I have a hard time drilling straight and don't have a press. Though if I need to, both my FIL and BIL have drill presses that I could try to use. I will be going to the hardware store today, so can check on the rod and mortising jig supplies. Also found a simple tenon jig to make.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

windhollowfarm said:


> Ahh - I can find wood closet rods locally. And I was just looking at one of those drilling jigs - I have a hard time drilling straight and don't have a press. Though if I need to, both my FIL and BIL have drill presses that I could try to use. I will be going to the hardware store today, so can check on the rod and mortising jig supplies. Also found a simple tenon jig to make.


since you already cut the pieces for the frame you won't have what it takes (material wise) to cut tenons...
floating tenons are the way around this... with your angles drilling will come to your rescue...
compound angled tenons take a lot of practice... and you haven't a shoulder plane...
use the closet rod as the tenons...
make sure the rod isn't painted or prime and is real wood...
drilled hole as the mortise... perfectly fine...
match the dia of the rod w/ a forstner bit w/ a 3/8 shank... that's the size if the chuck is on that guide...

how are you fixed for clamps???
remember that cutting tool PDF??? suggest you make you one...


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## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Stick486 said:


> since you already cut the pieces for the frame you won't have what it takes (material wise) to cut tenons...
> floating tenons are the way around this... with your angles drilling will come to your rescue...
> compound angled tenons take a lot of practice... and you haven't a shoulder plane...
> use the closet rod as the tenons...
> ...


Thank you! This is all new territory, and there is a lot of information out there. Doing some searching, but haven't found too much info on using large dowels for tenons yet. I see another amazon order in my near future. . .have a couple clamps and I borrowed a few more from my FIL. I know everyone has their favorites, but I do need a few more and would appreciate some recommendations.

How do I calculate the depth of a loose dowel mortise? Any formulas?

I was also able to order a wheel marking gauge - is there a use difference between the two types of marking gauges?


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

windhollowfarm said:


> Thank you! This is all new territory, and there is a lot of information out there. Doing some searching, but haven't found too much info on using large dowels for tenons yet. I see another amazon order in my near future. . .have a couple clamps and I borrowed a few more from my FIL. I know everyone has their favorites, but I do need a few more and would appreciate some recommendations.
> 
> How do I calculate the depth of a loose dowel mortise? Any formulas?
> 
> I was also able to order a wheel marking gage - is there a use difference between the two types of marking gages?


I screwed up on the dowel size.. narrowest width ÷ 5 gives you dowel size.... 
this rule of thumb is for two dowels in the end of a 4x4...
rounding up or down to the nearest fraction if need be is your choice... 

just work the dowel as though it was a loose tenon...

clamps.. they are all my favorites...

gages...
certainly are...

depth... at least 1/3 the narrowest width.. adjust as circumstances dictate...


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## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Stick486 said:


> narrowest width ÷ 5 gives you dowel size....this rule of thumb is for two dowels in the end of a 4x4. . . depth... at least 1/3 the narrowest width.. adjust as circumstances dictate...


K, think I've got it. Posting another pic to make sure I am thinking things through correctly. Would I angle the loose tenons or keep them straight? I couldn't find much info on angled loose tenons, but maybe I wasn't looking in the right place.

And my dowel diam would be 3/4" - total loose tenon length would be 2 1/2". Do I need to add grooves or anything to the dowels?

And I will be using a 3/4" forester bit with a drill guide or a drill press for mortises.

Grin. Anything else I need to know before I start marking things extremely carefully for the loose tenons? I am trying not to be in too much of a hurry to get started. 

Wow - all those clamps. I am drooling.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Would I angle the loose tenons* - no* or keep them straight?* - yes...*

And my dowel diam would be 3/4" *- correct...* 
total loose tenon length would be 2 1/2". *- at a minimum.. I would be more comfortable w/ 3"...*
Do I need to add grooves or anything to the dowels?*- yes...*
*chamfer the ends...
groove the dowels... that cutting tool that you have the PDF of would do it...
a router w/ a veining/grooving bit is a good way to do this...

Freud Tools

lay the dowel between two 3/4" thick boards.. set up an edge guide so the bit tracks up the center of the dowel... grove away...
rotate the dowel and groove again... 8 to 12 groves 1/16" deep or so is way plenty..
do the full length of the dowel or broom handle all at onces and then cut into lengths..*

adjust as circumstances dictate...
*pay attention to placement...
sometimes you may have to shift location (L/R etc) or lengths (longer/shorter) of the dowels for a best fit at the angled joints...*

I am trying not to be in too much of a hurry to get started.  *-right...*

*the joints...*
if you wish to disassemble the table later do the doweling and hold the the joint together w/ a diagonally intersecting countersunk GRK or Timber Mate screw... 
these are proven screws for shear and they hold till hades freezes over...
place a single screw center on center of any and everything... the heads of the screws are where you can not see them and do not plug the screw head holes... ie., inside/backside/underside/etc.... not other choice can't help it visible screws get removable plugs

*Drilling the holes...* 
drill about 1/8" deeper the the dowel length.. to be consistent wrap a piece of duct tape on the shank of the drill bit at depth you want w/ a flag of tape sticking out.. as you drill the flag of tape will sweep away the chips made by the bit giving you better visual...

*Build you a larger drilling center... *
adjustable no less..
get a 3/4" spade bit and cut the shank off short enough so the point of the bit will be below the edge of the hole by a little...
tap the shank with a 1/4-20 die...
screw on a 1/4-20 nut to act as a locking nut ...
now screw on a 1/4-20 coupling nut to act as the depth adjustment...
set the depth you need w/ the coupling nut and have the point of the spade bit just protruding out of the hole... 
just in case you haven't caught on yet, the spade bit is placed in the hole inverted...

I did this with a set of new and cheap fostner bits... the steel is soft and much easier to work... my coupling nut was a 3/8-18 on these...
they fit the holes better and when you print the mating board not only is the center's location of the required hole clearly marked but the perimeter is too...
more gooder locating...
to recover the center I use a large rare earth magnet to get a grip on it...

some stuff to fuss over..

Lee Valley Tools - Item Search

Shop for Woodworking Tool Brands at Highland Woodworking


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## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Thought of something while sleeping last night. . .
Will the half lap joints interfere with the dowel joints, or will the dowel joints/lap joints compromise the strength of the table base? I know I can shift things around a bit, just wondering where I should place the joints, if I need to move them at all. (I accidentally drew in the center beam in the wrong spot, it will be centered.)


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

windhollowfarm said:


> Thought of something while sleeping last night. . .
> Will the half lap joints interfere with the dowel joints, or will the dowel joints/lap joints compromise the strength of the table base? I know I can shift things around a bit, just wondering where I should place the joints, if I need to move them at all. (I accidentally drew in the center beam in the wrong spot, it will be centered.)


put measures to the drawing...


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

windhollowfarm said:


> Thank you! This is all new territory, and there is a lot of information out there. Doing some searching, but haven't found too much info on using large dowels for tenons yet. I see another amazon order in my near future. . .have a couple clamps and I borrowed a few more from my FIL. I know everyone has their favorites, but I do need a few more and would appreciate some recommendations.
> 
> I was also able to order a wheel marking gauge - is there a use difference between the two types of marking gauges?


You can't have too many clamps Elley and lots of different ones are good but here are a few suggestions. It's good to have at least four sets of pipe clamps. Pipe clamps can be made any length you want by changing or coupling pipes together. You can use pipe couplings to add shorter pipes together if needed. I've gone up to 12' with mine. 

Bessey clamps are the Cadillac of F-type fast acting clamps but you need to take out a loan to buy them. In my opinion Jorgensens are the best quality for the money. I once read that the most common cause of joint failure was over clamping and squeezing too much glue out of a joint. So with that in mind the very lightweight aluminum beam clamps are strong enough for most jobs and aren't very expensive for the length of them and they can be managed with one hand. It's also good to have a Quick Grip type one handed clamp or two around for when you need 3 hands but only have your two available. They will hold something together while you put more clamps on. The ones I use most are 4 to 8" clamping range. I have about 20 of them and that's barely enough at times. 

It's a good policy to buy a couple or so clamps anytime you see them on sale.


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## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Stick486 said:


> put measures to the drawing...


Attached - didn't put the dowels in, wasn't quite sure where to put them accurately.
Let me know if you need any other measurements or if something isn't clear.


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## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> You can't have too many clamps Elley and lots of different ones are good but here are a few suggestions. It's good to have at least four sets of pipe clamps. Pipe clamps can be made any length you want by changing or coupling pipes together. You can use pipe couplings to add shorter pipes together if needed. I've gone up to 12' with mine.


Thank you! Nice to know that the quick clamp ones can be handy, and I had heard that Jorgensens were recommended. Will add them to my list! Also good to know about over clamping, definitely do not want to do that.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

center the 1-1/4" edge apron on the 4" over hang of the end apron....

what joint are you showing for center of the leg trestle - bottom cross beam???


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> You can't have too many clamps Elley and lots of different ones are good but here are a few suggestions. It's good to have at least four sets of pipe clamps. Pipe clamps can be made any length you want by changing or coupling pipes together. You can use pipe couplings to add shorter pipes together if needed. I've gone up to 12' with mine.
> 
> Bessey clamps are the Cadillac of F-type fast acting clamps but you need to take out a loan to buy them. In my opinion Jorgensens are the best quality for the money. I once read that the most common cause of joint failure was over clamping and squeezing too much glue out of a joint. So with that in mind the very lightweight aluminum beam clamps are strong enough for most jobs and aren't very expensive for the length of them and they can be managed with one hand. It's also good to have a Quick Grip type one handed clamp or two around for when you need 3 hands but only have your two available. They will hold something together while you put more clamps on. The ones I use most are 4 to 8" clamping range. I have about 20 of them and that's barely enough at times.
> 
> It's a good policy to buy a couple or so clamps anytime you see them on sale.


agreed....


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## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Stick486 said:


> center the 1-1/4" edge apron on the 4" over hang of the end apron....
> 
> what joint are you showing for center of the leg trestle - bottom cross beam???


Well, that was easy, lol. See what experience would do for me? I was just playing with the join for the stretcher. . .


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

windhollowfarm said:


> Well, that was easy, lol. See what experience would do for me? I was just playing with the join for the stretcher. . .


got a name for it???

some dowel configurations...


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## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Stick486 said:


> *the joints...*
> if you wish to disassemble the table later do the doweling and hold the the joint together w/ a diagonally intersecting countersunk GRK or Timber Mate screw...
> these are proven screws for shear and they hold till hades freezes over...
> place a single screw center on center of any and everything... the heads of the screws are where you can not see them and do not plug the screw head holes... ie., inside/backside/underside/etc.... not other choice can't help it visible screws get removable plugs


So the screws are drilled at an angle, not straight? And no glue where the screws are going for disassembly. Do I use glue on the other end of the dowel pin, or another screw?



> *Build you a larger drilling center... *
> adjustable no less..
> get a 3/4" spade bit and cut the shank off short enough so the point of the bit will be below the edge of the hole by a little...
> tap the shank with a 1/4-20 die...
> ...


Great idea! And while searching it seemed as if there wasn't anything larger than 1/2" for doweling.

Rather than purchasing a drilling guide, I found that I could make my own simple drilling jig by using a drill press on a good scrap piece of wood for the holes. It might be easier to clamp to the work, think it's a viable idea?


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

So the screws are drilled at an angle, not straight? 
*correct..*

And no glue where the screws are going for disassembly. 
*correct...*

Do I use glue on the other end of the dowel pin, 
*your option..
I wouldn't..*

or another screw?
*????*

Great idea! And while searching it seemed as if there wasn't anything larger than 1/2" for doweling.
*I know...*

Rather than purchasing a drilling guide, 
*you sure about this???
accuracy matters and that drilling guide is about the best way to do it since you haven't a lot of "stuff"... especially come angle time...*

I found that I could make my own simple drilling jig by using a drill press on a good scrap piece of wood for the holes. It might be easier to clamp to the work, think it's a viable idea?
*It is but accuracy matters as in placement and perpendicular...
with your drilling jig the perpendicular can drift...
a quirk with a fostner... 
as you drill you can serpentine the hole or drift off center by a lot... 
decades ago I bought one of those guides... still use it today...
also keep in mind some of those 4x4 joints may require 4 dowels...
like the stretcher..*


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

come time to start drilling or routing the ends of you 4x's and what not you'll find that the end is just too small no matter how large it is....

build yourself a flange to slip over the end to give yourself more working surface...
found a commercially made one to give you the idea of what to make... 
scrap wood is just fine...
make one leg of the collar a couple of inches longer/taller than the other three and you'll have a much easier time clamping the flange into place...


----------



## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Stick486 said:


> or another screw?*????*


Got it, the joint is being held together with one screw going diagonally to catch both parts of the join.



> Rather than purchasing a drilling guide,
> *you sure about this???
> accuracy matters and that drilling guide is about the best way to do it since you haven't a lot of "stuff"... especially come angle time...*


Grin, no. You've convinced me. Good to hear that you like yours. Wasn't sure if I should spend the money after checking reviews.


----------



## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Stick486 said:


> come time to start drilling or routing the ends of you 4x's and what not you'll find that the end is just too small no matter how large it is....
> 
> build yourself a flange to slip over the end to give yourself more working surface...
> found a commercially made one to give you the idea of what to make...
> ...


Thanks!


----------



## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Going back to the aprons and center beam, how will the lap joints attach to the end apron so they don't move apart? More doweling?


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

windhollowfarm said:


> Grin, no. You've convinced me. Good to hear that you like yours. Wasn't sure if I should spend the money after checking reviews.


it has it's quirks but it has come to the rescue more than once...


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

windhollowfarm said:


> Going back to the aprons and center beam, how will the lap joints attach to the end apron so they don't move apart? More doweling?


on the half lap joint???
gravity or a single screw through the joint......
once the top is fastened to the end aprons how can they pull apart???


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

windhollowfarm said:


> Grin, no. You've convinced me. Good to hear that you like yours. Wasn't sure if I should spend the money after checking reviews.


went to amazon.. 
we are not talking the same animal here...
brand yes and that tool has suffered major changes...
you could get a protool.. they start at around 500 plus and go to over a thousand dollars...
time to find a plan "B"...


----------



## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Stick486 said:


> went to amazon..
> we are not talking the same animal here...
> brand yes and that tool has suffered major changes...
> you could get a protool.. they start at around 500 plus and go to over a thousand dollars...
> time to find a plan "B"...


Here are the two that had the best reviews:

Wolfcraft

Craftsman

I always listen to plan B's.


----------



## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Stick486 said:


> on the half lap joint???
> gravity or a single screw through the joint......
> once the top is fastened to the end aprons how can they pull apart???


Good point.


----------



## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

This one looks a little clumsy, but I can see if everything has a straight edge, the holes would be straight.
Horizontal Jig

Or would it be possible to use the plunge router?
Plunge Router Jig


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

windhollowfarm said:


> Here are the two that had the best reviews:
> 
> Wolfcraft
> 
> ...


still the same.. different label...

JIG IT® Drill Guide - Rockler Woodworking Tools

Preview - Tool Test: Forstner Bits - Fine Woodworking Article

here's an idea..

The Forstner Bit Squaring Guide™ | Evenfall Studios


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

windhollowfarm said:


> This one looks a little clumsy, but I can see if everything has a straight edge, the holes would be straight.
> Horizontal Jig
> 
> Or would it be possible to use the plunge router?
> Plunge Router Jig


got plan "C"???


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

some found helpful information...

Forstner Bits - Reviews - American Woodworker


----------



## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Stick486 said:


> got plan "C"???


I'm not coming up with anything, but the link for the Jig-It that you posted looks promising. I would need a longer bit, or a bit extender. Think it would work fine?

Have to go build a wall in the barn. . .


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

windhollowfarm said:


> I'm not coming up with anything, but the link for the Jig-It that you posted looks promising. I would need a longer bit, or a bit extender. Think it would work fine?
> 
> Have to go build a wall in the barn. . .


extender, no... longer bit... yes..

you build the wall...
I'll take care of the nap...


----------



## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Stick486 said:


> extender, no... longer bit... yes..
> 
> you build the wall...
> I'll take care of the nap...


Grin. Looking at the different dowel configurations that you posted, which would be good for me to use when putting the table ends/legs together - the five point?

Also, am thinking of doing a half lap joint for the stretcher. Will that work okay?

And, can use doweling to join the diagonal bracing, right?


----------



## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Just found this video - Drilling Guide. Might have to try it out on some scrap wood.


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Grin. Looking at the different dowel configurations that you posted, which would be good for me to use when putting the table ends/legs together - the five point?
*I must not have had enough of a nap...
What 5 point (5 dowels???) and which joint locations for the table ends/legs are you referring to???*

Also, am thinking of doing a half lap joint for the stretcher. Will that work okay?
*most certainly but I'd do it as a blind lapped....
and I'd add a pair of dowels as pins so the joint won't slide apart or torsion if you scoot/move the table...
the easy way to add the dowels is to cut the joint...
fit it...
flip the spreader and cross brace upside down...
install your retainer screw centered by center by centered, diagonally through the stretcher and into the cross beam.. if you hit the flange w/ the screw this is okay...
now drill for your dowels but don't drill through the top of the stretcher and make sure you don't hit the screw ... drill into the flange approximately half the thickness of it...
dissemble the joint and insert the dowels...
suggest you glue the dowels into the cross beam and keep all glue away/off of everything else... protruding dowels, the mating surfaces of the joint - everything...
make sure the glue is dry before reassembly...

I'd like to suggest some aesthetics for this joint...
instead of making the tops of the cross beam and stretcher flush raise (make proud) the top of the stretcher up a bit above the cross beam... 
since you will make a practice joint you can experiment with how proud you want to make the stretcher....
you can always shim the bottom of the open mortise in the cross beam to change the proud... the shim will never be seen...
I'd start at 1/4" proud and make changes in 1/16" increments till you are in your happiness.. you'll know it when you see it...
I believe doing this joint this way will be a signature and actually elevate the aesthetics... 

Shim stock for these joints:

custom ripped material..
veneer..
paint stir sticks..
tooth picks..
kabob sticks...
the cardboard off of the back of a writing tablet...
drywall shims..
cedar shims..
cedar shakes...

now let's deal w/ the splintering and fuzzies before they get out of control....
normally a 1/16" RO and subsequent sanding works very well but because of the brittleness of your Sassafras I think a 3/32" RO would be more appropriate - maybe even an 1/8" RO would be more to your liking.... only you will know...
when you sand these RO's be careful... wipe them in line w/ a sponge type sanding block and stay away from them w/ a powered sander.. do your power sanding 1st and then the put on the RO... 
you are going to RO EVERY right angle on every piece of material to include the shoulders of the half-laps, mortises and butted joints... the sharp points of the diagonals you'll clip w/ your miter saw and hand RO them w/ a sanding block...
experiment with a piece of scrap to figure out what you want the aesthetics to be.. 
Mated (flush) joints with opposing RO's appear shouldered and it is a blem diffuser..
please experiment with your scrap... 

because of the nature of your wood I use oscillating pad sanders for the flat surfaces and not an ROS.. An ROS will make waves, dips, swales and generally screw up the profile of the outside edges...
Before you ask - Makita and Milwaukee sanders in 1/4, 1/3 and half sheet...
they have treated me very very well...

Cutting and layout are going to be hand in hand...
Let's start w/ a half-lap...
do your layout in pencil...
verify...
verify...
verify...
when you lay one piece on top of the other for fit/sizing the pencil lines should barely be visible...
on one piece only you are going to deeply score the lines w/ that curved blade I showed you... keep the blade as perpendicular to the surface as possible... lots of even medium pressured easy swipes w/ the blade are a a lot better than trying to slice right in... do not saw the blade or pull really quickly...
at times you'll need to use that wheeled gage or the cutting gage....

hog out the waste material with your circular saw and a really sharp cross cut blade or your forstner bit... stay away from the cut lines and don't over cut the depth... use a cutting guide for control of the CS if you go that way... Nothing beats a speed square here and cut your kerfs so they are never under the saw's plate... 
I'd save the forstner and use the CS..

safety first...
let's assume your CS has it's blade on the right....
set the saw's depth of cut to around an 1/8-3/16" shy of the desired depth...
right hand on the saw and the left hand on the speed square...
the speed square is set to the left edge of the saw's plate...
the saw rests on un-kerfed material at all times...
make your 1st kerf to the left of the right hand cut line... do not try to cut too near the cut line or you may become irritated over the splintering and where they tear out of...
move left a 1/4 - 3/8" and kerf again... and so on...
take your time here...
make sure you stay away from that left hand cut line now...
bust your kerfed pieces loose.. hammer and chisel to the rescue here...

If the blade is on the left side of the saw - reverse the operation...

set up your router...
take two pieces (the wider the better) of scrap and clamp them to the outside of this piece you are in the process of chopping up... flushed top surfaces here matter... you are making rests for your router to ride on...
Also, you going to SNEAK up on the cut line....

W/ speed squares... clamp them in place, one left-one right, and leave them clamped up till you are finished with the cut... they are your limits of cut and no sense of loosing ground here...
Clean the dado up w/ the router...
measure for depth and adjust if need be...
too deep and your shims come into play...
remember, that what ever the measure is that if you are not deep enough or too deep by will double when you cut the next half-lap dado.....
test fit for width w/ the opposing piece.. too wide veneer to the rescue.. not wide enough lightly tap one or both of the speed squares outward with a hammer/mallet..
clean/test and so on...
make sure you don't loose/change the square setting of the guide...

if you are you using a made dado or mortise guide/template follow it's instructions... 

safety note... w/ the router up against the left guide push the router away from you... w/ it against the right guide pull router to you......
remember those two router rests you clamped on??? careful when you run into them w/ the router bit... tack on router stops (L-R) so things don't go south.. in effect w/ the two squares and these two stops you have built a box for the router to ride inside of...

FWIW.. for hyper fine adjusting/fitting nothing beats a shoulder plane... But you need several birthday's and group support for those...
accept no substitutes... SNORK!!!

Veritas® Shoulder Planes - Lee Valley Tools - Woodworking Tools, Gardening Tools, Hardware Supplies

you can get where you need to be also w/ chisels and a bit of practice and as long as they are sharp enough to effortlessly shave your wood cross grain......

Now use this finished dado/mortise to layout it's mate...

the screws...
washer headed screws are the way to go... flat headed screws now, sooner or later split material...
bore a hole to accept the head... spade or a forstner is a good bet...
then drill a pilot hole that is 75% of the OD of the screw... you may need to find an aviation/aircraft bit to do this...
here's some references..

GRK Fasteners - RSS JTS
High Speed Steel Aircraft Extension Drills | Travers Tool
*

And, can I use doweling to join the diagonal bracing, right?
*please do..*

*WHEW!!!*


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

windhollowfarm said:


> Just found this video - Drilling Guide. Might have to try it out on some scrap wood.


this is for a forstner bit...
yours is for a straight bit...

The Forstner Bit Squaring Guide™ | Evenfall Studios


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

windhollowfarm said:


> I'm not coming up with anything, but the link for the Jig-It that you posted looks promising. I would need a longer bit, or a bit extender. Think it would work fine?
> 
> Have to go build a wall in the barn. . .


so much for that sarcasm...


----------



## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

> *WHEW!!!*


Stick, I am speechless! Thank you so much - I think you have thought of every step, and ones that I haven't even thought about. THANK YOU! I am so excited to get started (slowly), and it's going to take a couple of days to digest everything that you have written, but I am going to get there - and what a learning experience!!! And I know what to ask for my birthday/anniversary gifts, lol. Not only am I going to enjoy this build, but our family is going to enjoy sitting around this table for (hopefully) many years.


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

That was a nice thank you and you are very welcome...


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

*clamping..*
all those angled drops/blocks you saved will come in very handy come clamp placement time... 
you'll put them between the jaws of the clamp and an angled member to control the seating of the clamp jaws and their draw axis... 
as in when you try to clamp the cross beam in between the legs... as soon as you see that the jaws don't fit flush to member you use one or more of those blocks to take up the space...
now those blocks are going to want to creep on you exert clamping pressure.. hold those blocks in place with double stick tape and a clamp of it's own... 
easy on the DST... you'll be wanting to remove those blocks at some point...

*screws/placement...*

drill a flat bottom counter sunk hole for the head of the screw..
then drill your pilot hole..
then drill a clearance hole for the screw's shank in the member that has the counter sunk hole..
this sequence helps with centering the holes and keeping everything lined up...

*stretcher* - from the underside diagonally into the *cross beam...*
- from the underside vertically into the *diagonal braces...*

*cross beam* - from the underside diagonally into the *legs*

*end apron * - from the top side vertically into *legs..*

*center beam* - from the top side vertically into the *diagonal braces...*

if you need more reach with the screw drill the countersink deeper...
because of the wide variety of grain orientation *DO NOT* use or rely on the self drill feature of the screw.. *PRE-DRILL...*
before you drill for the screw.. lay the screw on the outside of the joint so you can visualize where it is going to be IRL... you'll also see if the screw will be breaking out on a finished side...

*Dowel placement/count*

*stretcher* - 2x from the underside vertically into the *diagonal braces...*

*cross beam* - 4x from the end horizontally into the *legs*

*end apron * - 2x from the top side vertically into *legs..*

*center beam* - 2x from the top side vertically into the *diagonal braces...*

before you drill for the dowel.. lay the dowel on the outside of the joint so you can visualize where it is going to be IRL.. the most meat matters... and of course you don't want to ""break out"" w/ the drill or dowel...
cheat often and a lot... drill through often as you can... all drill throughs get the dowel glued in place and flush cut to the outside of the drilled through member... keep the glue away/off of the joint and receiving hole for the dowel...


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

windhollowfarm said:


> And I know what to ask for my birthday/anniversary gifts, lol.


you left out because it winter, summer, fall, spring, school day, sun day, rain day, snow day, not snow day, day off day, (you get the idea) but most important are you need a tool day and you are you day and this no tool gift thing is hurting production and slowing me down.... day...
there are 365 of them a year....
tell everybody to get with the program...


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

some more help....
see the attachments...

if you do the blind the dowel size will change to 1/3 the length of the check...
but...
if the new measure is greater than 3l4" dia stay with the 3/4" dowels...
the thickness of the check.. 1/2 of the height of the stretcher...
length of check.. 1/3 to 1/2 the width of the cross beam...
if you step cut the check you can make it appear a lot longer... (more of that aesthetics thing)...
a step cut will come out looking like a set of stairs... inverted in this application...

remember.. for half laps of any kind to work as intended they *must* fit together snuggly..


----------



## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Stick486 said:


> install your retainer screw centered by center by centered, diagonally through the stretcher and into the cross beam.. if you hit the flange w/ the screw this is okay...
> now drill for your dowels but don't drill through the top of the stretcher and make sure you don't hit the screw ... drill into the flange approximately half the thickness of it...
> dissemble the joint and insert the dowels...
> suggest you glue the dowels into the cross beam and keep all glue away/off of everything else... protruding dowels, the mating surfaces of the joint - everything...
> make sure the glue is dry before reassembly...


Got everything, except what is the flange?



> I'd like to suggest some aesthetics for this joint...
> instead of making the tops of the cross beam and stretcher flush raise (make proud) the top of the stretcher up a bit above the cross beam...
> since you will make a practice joint you can experiment with how proud you want to make the stretcher....
> you can always shim the bottom of the open mortise in the cross beam to change the proud... the shim will never be seen...
> ...


Love the idea! And maybe mistakes won't show as much? . Just to make sure I have the correct terms in my brain - the stretcher is the long center beam connecting to the cross beams which are connected to the legs. . .am I right?



> now let's deal w/ the splintering and fuzzies before they get out of control....
> normally a 1/16" RO and subsequent sanding works very well but because of the brittleness of your Sassafras I think a 3/32" RO would be more appropriate - maybe even an 1/8" RO would be more to your liking.... only you will know...
> when you sand these RO's be careful... wipe them in line w/ a sponge type sanding block and stay away from them w/ a powered sander.. do your power sanding 1st and then the put on the RO...


Got it! Thanks for addressing this - I had forgotten it had been mentioned before.



> you are going to RO EVERY right angle on every piece of material to include the shoulders of the half-laps, mortises and butted joints... the sharp points of the diagonals you'll clip w/ your miter saw and hand RO them w/ a sanding block...
> experiment with a piece of scrap to figure out what you want the aesthetics to be..
> Mated (flush) joints with opposing RO's appear shouldered and it is a blem diffuser..
> please experiment with your scrap...


So, if I am understanding correctly, RO along the grain on each edge as well as RO the cut edges, cross-grain?



> because of the nature of your wood I use oscillating pad sanders for the flat surfaces and not an ROS.. An ROS will make waves, dips, swales and generally screw up the profile of the outside edges...
> Before you ask - Makita and Milwaukee sanders in 1/4, 1/3 and half sheet...
> they have treated me very very well...


Got it! Have both kinds.



> Cutting and layout are going to be hand in hand...
> Let's start w/ a half-lap...
> do your layout in pencil...
> verify...
> ...


Understand! Thanks! Can always make the cut larger, can't make it smaller.



> set up your router...
> take two pieces (the wider the better) of scrap and clamp them to the outside of this piece you are in the process of chopping up... flushed top surfaces here matter... you are making rests for your router to ride on...
> Also, you going to SNEAK up on the cut line....
> 
> ...


Do I use a straight bit to clean up the cut?? Still a router newbie 



> safety note... w/ the router up against the left guide push the router away from you... w/ it against the right guide pull router to you......
> remember those two router rests you clamped on??? careful when you run into them w/ the router bit... tack on router stops (L-R) so things don't go south.. in effect w/ the two squares and these two stops you have built a box for the router to ride inside of..


So basically I will have guides clamped to the top and sides of the cut? Just double checking. . .



> FWIW.. for hyper fine adjusting/fitting nothing beats a shoulder plane... But you need several birthday's and group support for those...
> accept no substitutes... SNORK!!!


. . .and I'm guessing more than just one shoulder plane would help. 



> the screws...
> washer headed screws are the way to go... flat headed screws now, sooner or later split material...
> bore a hole to accept the head... spade or a forstner is a good bet...
> then drill a pilot hole that is 75% of the OD of the screw... you may need to find an aviation/aircraft bit to do this...
> here's some references..


Thanks for the info! How do I figure what length of screw to use? I know it's going diagonally, but I'm more thinking of rule of thumb for most projects, not just this one.


----------



## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Stick486 said:


> *clamping..*
> all those angled drops/blocks you saved will come in very handy come clamp placement time...
> you'll put them between the jaws of the clamp and an angled member to control the seating of the clamp jaws and their draw axis...
> as in when you try to clamp the cross beam in between the legs... as soon as you see that the jaws don't fit flush to member you use one or more of those blocks to take up the space...
> ...


Perfect. Now I can use up my scrap booking tape! 



> *screws/placement...*
> drill a flat bottom counter sunk hole for the head of the screw..
> then drill your pilot hole..
> then drill a clearance hole for the screw's shank in the member that has the counter sunk hole..
> this sequence helps with centering the holes and keeping everything lined up...


Thank you! I would have done this backwards.



> if you need more reach with the screw drill the countersink deeper...
> because of the wide variety of grain orientation *DO NOT* use or rely on the self drill feature of the screw.. *PRE-DRILL...*
> before you drill for the screw.. lay the screw on the outside of the joint so you can visualize where it is going to be IRL... you'll also see if the screw will be breaking out on a finished side...


Got it! And the placement info on both the dowels and screws really help, you have no idea - I would have been overthinking it.


----------



## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Stick486 said:


> you left out because it winter, summer, fall, spring, school day, sun day, rain day, snow day, not snow day, day off day, (you get the idea) but most important are you need a tool day and you are you day and this no tool gift thing is hurting production and slowing me down.... day...
> there are 365 of them a year....
> tell everybody to get with the program...


Lol, only this little thing called a budget gets in the way. . .


----------



## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Stick486 said:


> some more help....
> see the attachments...
> 
> if you do the blind the dowel size will change to 1/3 the length of the check...
> ...


Makes complete sense! Great attachments, I had looked the blind lap up but your info is more clear.


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Got everything, except what is the flange?
*The check....*

Love the idea! And maybe mistakes won't show as much? . Just to make sure I have the correct terms in my brain - the stretcher is the long center beam connecting to the cross beams which are connected to the legs. . .am I right?
*correct...*


So, if I am understanding correctly, RO along the grain on each edge as well as RO the cut edges, cross-grain?
*correct...*

Understand! Thanks! Can always make the cut larger, can't make it smaller.
*yup...*

Do I use a straight bit to clean up the cut?? Still a router newbie 
*yup...*

So basically I will have guides clamped to the top and sides of the cut? Just double checking. . .
*yup... and the bottom...*

. . .and I'm guessing more than just one shoulder plane would help. 
*yup...
start w/ the largest one 1st...*

Thanks for the info! How do I figure what length of screw to use? I know it's going diagonally, but I'm more thinking of rule of thumb for most projects, not just this one.
*double the thickness of the narrowest member for screws...
measure for thickness from the bottom of the countersink...
triple for nails...
and of course, adjustments may be required per location...*


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

windhollowfarm said:


> Lol, only this little thing called a budget gets in the way. . .


not if the tools are gifts using other people's money...


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

I can see from here that you will not be making any mistakes....
no matter what happens the are hosts of fixes for any issue...

do the RO's on your test pieces so you can see them IRL...


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

since you have a stretcher log enough, instead of the half blind at the cross beam/stretcher connection you could do a tusk tenon...
that'd be classy..
even cool...


----------



## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

Stick486 said:


> since you have a stretcher log enough, instead of the half blind at the cross beam/stretcher connection you could do a tusk tenon...
> that'd be classy..
> even cool...


I always knew that as a pegged tenon. Learned something new today....


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

jw2170 said:


> I always knew that as a pegged tenon. Learned something new today....


This one???


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

so take a block of wood say 2"x8" or so and 5/4 thick will work well...
RO all edges..
this for comfort and the block will be less likely to snag raised fiber/grain and tear it loose...
find yourself a XL diameter 1" (or longer if needed) FH wood screw....
polish the flat of the screw's head on VF sandpaper till the perimeter/edge of the screw's head sharpens...
no wood screw??? use a machine screw, insert and lock nut...
set the screw into the geometric center of the face of the 2x8.... there's nothing stopping you from inserting the screw into the 5/4 edge...
adjust for depth as required to clean up those nasty ridges in the bottoms of your dadoes and rabbets...

what you have done is built yourself a router plane...

Lee Valley Tools - Important Announcement


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

found a good training aide...

I disagree with the glue on the joint but many use glue.... your choice...
also as thick as your top is you can blind those dowels holding the BB by not through drilling and installing the dowels from the bottom side...


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## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Stick486 said:


> what you have done is built yourself a router plane...
> 
> Lee Valley Tools - Important Announcement


That is a great tip! I've added it to my list. . .


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

windhollowfarm said:


> That is a great tip! I've added it to my list. . .


List!?!?!?

you haven't built one yet???


----------



## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Stick486 said:


> found a good training aide...
> 
> I disagree with the glue on the joint but many use glue.... your choice...
> also as thick as your top is you can blind those dowels holding the BB by not through drilling and installing the dowels from the bottom side...


That's a great one - very clear. And I was wondering about installing the dowels from underneath. Have to think about that one. Have to make up my mind if I want to see the dowels or not. . .aesthetics, aesthetics, grin.

How many dowel pins should I use across each BB end (34"), and double checking the pin diameter should be about 1/2"?

Also, back to making the dowel pins for the frame - will I still need to chamfer the ends if I am using a forstner bit?

Getting closer - still practicing, but I took the time today to mark my half lap joints.


----------



## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Stick486 said:


> List!?!?!?
> 
> you haven't built one yet???


LOL! You know that list of all the things you want to make? It's close to the top. . .


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

How many dowel pins should I use across each BB end (34"), 
*three...
center and 6" in...*

and double checking the pin diameter should be about 1/2"?
*yup...*

Also, back to making the dowel pins for the frame - will I still need to chamfer the ends if I am using a forstner bit?
*you bet...
every dowel that goes into a blind every time... and don not bottom them out...
if you don't you may tear fibers and splinters loose from the wall of the hole and when they get pushed into the bottom of the the hole...
they just may seriously screw with your day and the project... *

now how do you plan to cut those oblong holes...???
*SNORK!!!*


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

windhollowfarm said:


> LOL! You know that list of all the things you want to make? It's close to the top. . .


Me!!!!
I don't want to make anything...


----------



## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Stick486 said:


> Me!!!!
> I don't want to make anything...


Grin - I was talking to myself, but if you want to put it on your list. . .


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## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Stick486 said:


> Also, back to making the dowel pins for the frame - will I still need to chamfer the ends if I am using a forstner bit?
> *you bet...
> every dowel that goes into a blind every time... and don not bottom them out...
> if you don't you may tear fibers and splinters loose from the wall of the hole and when they get pushed into the bottom of the the hole...
> they just may seriously screw with your day and the project... *


Understand - thanks!



> now how do you plan to cut those oblong holes...???
> *SNORK!!!*


Grin, I'm hoping with my plunge router - otherwise I saw an interesting way to make the holes elongated just by using a drill and bit.


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

windhollowfarm said:


> Grin - I was talking to myself, but if you want to put it on your list. . .


you go make things...
talking to one's self is my domain...


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

windhollowfarm said:


> Grin, I'm hoping with my plunge router - otherwise I saw an interesting way to make the holes elongated just by using a drill and bit.


skip the plunge router.. 
they make beautiful elongated holes but exact positioning is just not worth the misery and effort...

so...
how do you plan to do the hole offset???
"walking" the drill bit to elongate doesn't give you a true elongation and often destroys the offset and splits the tongue... 
no offset and the BB cracks...
so what is your plan "B"???

this is a test...
there are no wrong answers....
just - not so good, okay, good, better and best answers...

Hint:
calculate your wood movement...

anybody want to jump in here???

Note:
Dowel pin count...
I was thinking the tongue and wall thickness of the mortise were all 1/2" thick hence 1/2" dowels...
go with a dowel dia the same as the thinest portion of the T&G...
if you are a worry wort you could increase the dowel count up to 5....

Dowel spacing for 5...
mark the center and inset locations... 
divide the distance between the center and inset locations by two...


----------



## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Stick486 said:


> skip the plunge router..
> they make beautiful elongated holes but exact positioning is just not worth the misery and effort...
> 
> so...
> ...


Showing my ignorance here, but from what I've read on wood movement, rule of thumb 1/4" (1/8" if quarter grain) for every 12" - my tabletop is 34", so I should expect almost 3/4" of movement? Is that an additional 3/4" for every pin hole - or split between how many pins are used?



> Dowel spacing for 5...
> mark the center and inset locations...
> divide the distance between the center and inset locations by two...


Got it, thanks!


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

rule of thumb 1/4" (1/8" if quarter grain) for every 12" - my tabletop is 34", so I should expect almost 3/4" of movement?
*maybe... 
what are the end grains of the table top like???
I believe you have a full realm of grain orientations relative to each board that makes up the top.......
so it's a tough call... better to err on the side of cation...*

Is that an additional 3/4" for every pin hole - or split between how many pins are used?
*every pin gets a 3/4" slot except for the center pin which gets no slot...

using the last 30days of weather and for Jan/February for northern MI and throwing a slew of variables (I didn't know the grain orientations) and entering them into the wood movement calculator (which you have) I came up w/ .438 to .801 inches of movement @ 34"...
the slot being a bit long, you'll never notice anything.. 
not long enough, this you will notice... *
*it's not good to second guess this... 

so add up the different grain orientations in inches and recompute if you need to be picky.... but what for???

now...

how do you plan to do/make the slots??? accuracy matters...
"walking" the drill bit to elongate doesn't give you a true elongation and often destroys the offset and splits the tongue...
what computations have you come up with for the offset (dowel set back from the tenon's shoulder)???
no offset/setback and the BB end cracks...

Hint:
calculate your wood movement for the BB...

calculate the size of the notches you need to make in the ends top's tenon...

*


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

what kind of heat does your home have???
humidifier???
dehumidifier???
lotta cooking???


----------



## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Stick486 said:


> what kind of heat does your home have???
> humidifier???
> dehumidifier???
> lotta cooking???


Three sources of heat, which we use different times of the year - inside wood boiler (we have the old cast iron short radiators), gas boiler, and gas furnace with forced air. Gas furnace we tend to use when it isn't as cold, the boiler is used more often. No humidifier or dehumidifier - have AC but rarely need to use it. Quite a bit of cooking and baking.


----------



## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Stick486 said:


> rule of thumb 1/4" (1/8" if quarter grain) for every 12" - my tabletop is 34", so I should expect almost 3/4" of movement?
> *maybe...
> what are the end grains of the table top like???*


They seemed like all different, so I just went with the larger number.



> *every pin gets a 3/4" slot except for the center pin which gets no slot...*


So the elongated slots should be 1/2" x 1-1/4" (1/2" for dowel + 3/4" mvmnt)? Or is it just a 1/2"x3/4" slot?



> *using the last 30days of weather and for Jan/February for northern MI and throwing a slew of variables (I didn't know the grain orientations) and entering them into the wood movement calculator (which you have) I came up w/ .438 to .801 inches of movement @ 34"...*


Last winter was cold, to say the least. And they say it's going to be another cold one. So, about 13/16ths, changed to 7/8ths to make it easier, the slots should be a little longer than 3/4". Yup, tried to figure out the wood movement calculator - still working on that.



> *so add up the different grain orientations in inches and recompute if you need to be picky.... but what for???*


 That's okay, I'll pass for right now. 



> *how do you plan to do/make the slots??? accuracy matters...
> "walking" the drill bit to elongate doesn't give you a true elongation and often destroys the offset and splits the tongue...*


Definitely don't want to do that. With marking the slots carefully, could I drill a hole on each end of the slot - then cut with the jigsaw to join the holes? Or would there be a better way?



> *what computations have you come up with for the offset (dowel set back from the tenon's shoulder)???
> no offset/setback and the BB end cracks...
> Hint:
> calculate your wood movement for the BB...
> ...


None. . .I thought that I was going to make the dowel holes centered on the tenon - but make the tenon dowel holes offset (towards the shoulder) from the BB dowel holes by 1/16th" for a snug fit.

The BB is 5-1/2" wide - based on your calculations above, the most movement would be .13" or a little over an 1/8".

For the notches in the ends of the tenon, is this meaning make the tenon width shorter than the mortise length for wood movement? If the table top can move up to 7/8" - that means I need to leave 7/8" on each end of the tenon free and clear in the mortise? Or is that measurement split between each end of the tenon?

Advice?


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

They seemed like all different, so I just went with the larger number.
*very good move...*

So the elongated slots should be 1/2" x 1-1/4" (1/2" for dowel + 3/4" movement)? Or is it just a 1/2"x3/4" slot?
*movement is calculated for the overall width of the top...
the center dowel is fixed (no slot)...
so the actual calculated movement is ÷ by 2 and that is the movement (expansion) away from the center going outward towards the edges simultaneously in both directions... this what adds up to total movement... 
3/4"÷2 = 3/8"....
3/8" (min) is what you want on both sides of the dowels.... 
I would be very comfortable w/ a 1/2" to either side...

Remember...
the slot being a bit long, you'll never notice anything..
not long enough, this you will notice... *

Last winter was cold, to say the least. 
*saw that...*

So, about 13/16ths, changed to 7/8ths to make it easier, the slots should be a little longer than 3/4". 
*very good...*

Yup, tried to figure out the wood movement calculator - still working on that.
*you'll get it...*

Definitely don't want to do that. With marking the slots carefully, could I drill a hole on each end of the slot - then cut with the jigsaw to join the holes? Or would there be a better way?
*did the router/drill bit/jigsaw methods... can we say ""unhappiness"" here...

take a scrap piece of wood and clamp it to the bottom of the tongue (make sure it is firmly up against the tongue's shoulder) at your dowel hole...
drill a hole through the scrap piece using the dowel hole as a locater...
replace this drilled piece with another piece of scrap as a backer...
set the drilled piece on top of the tongue... 
using the hole in the scrap as a drill guide, offset the drilled hole to the dowel hole slightly less than 1/2 of the dia of the hole... drill.. repeat till you you have your slot...
you may have to make another guide if the holes in the tongue and the guide do not line up perfectly.... 

if you line up the holes (use a dowel to check for alignment) and there is a small gap between the guide block and the shoulder you can take care of this with a layer(s) of masking or duct tape and you won't have to make a new guide... 
if it goes the other way shave it w/ your LA plane...*

None. . .I thought that I was going to make the dowel holes centered on the tenon - 
*good...*

but make the tenon dowel holes offset (towards the shoulder) from the BB dowel holes by 1/16th" for a snug fit.
*you went the wrong way and didn't allow for the BB's expansion...*

The BB is 5-1/2" wide - based on your calculations above, the most movement would be .13" or a little over an 1/8".
*wood movement is calculated from the outside edge of the dowel to the shoulder of the tenon...
so in effect you have a small gap between the edge of the BB and the shoulder...
you have to figure this ""gap"" before you drill the dowel holes...
I came up with 3/64"... (back/offset)...
use a tablet back (cardboard) for the spacer...
*

For the notches in the ends of the tenon, is this meaning make the tenon width shorter than the mortise length for wood movement? If the table top can move up to 7/8" - that means I need to leave 7/8" on each end of the tenon free and clear in the mortise? Or is that measurement split between each end of the tenon?
*slit it...*

*notes:*
Sassafras is prone to splinter... never forget this...
use a backer for every drill through w/o fail no matter where you drill... don't make issues for yourself...
chamfer all of your holes.. I put a bit brace style countersink in an old file handle and do the chamfers by hand because they only need a light touch...
when you through dowel - chamfer the end that is going into the hole.. run it proud and then flush cut it later... 

example:

you through dowel the BB...
chamfer the hole rims you can get to...
chamfer dowel...
these dowels will not have groves cut into them...
wipe a little glue to the inside of the bottom hole of the BB only... keep the glue off of everything else.. Q tip to the rescue...
use very little glue... you may someday want to knock those dowels back out because the BB was too loose and you need to add a layer of veneer to the seam... or you need to shave the BB because it's too tight at times and at risk of splitting/cracking...
idea.. add a dark layer or two to the seam to show as an inlay/pinstripe/accent...
a thicker slat of soft wood (1/8-3/16") fitted with the edge dyed/stained darker than top or as dark as the darkest color in the top... since it's fitted leave it loose/floating so that if the seam opens a little bit/too much it'll make the seam look like it was planned that way... it will also act as a crush block... inlays are some upper end work..
accent... 
insert the dowel from the top...
make it stick out (proud) a little on the bottom side... this clears any unwanted fibers the dowel collected on the way through...
clean up your glue squeeze out..
let the glue set up well...

drop an old CD/DVD over the dowel... (make the hole in the disk larger if you have to)...
flush cut the dowel using the CD/DVD as a shield so you don't mar the table top or any other surfaces you don't want saw teeth digs in......
take your paring chisel, skew chisel, surface plane or LA plane and flush the dowel...
do not sand the dowel to make it flush... sanding soft/hard woods together often spells setback.. you'll have a swale (dip) before you can think about and the flush will never become perfect...

*Plan "B":*

while the glue is still wet, cut the dowel on the top side (using the CD/DVD trick).. push/pound the little stub/nub flush to the top...
be careful the dowel doesn't spin or move up or down while you are cutting it off...

I do/prefer the shaving thing because it takes care of any splintering of the dowel from the cutting operation...

*elongated holes:*

you have made them using the lap drilling method...
use a file or homemade emery board from a piece of scrap and fine sandpaper double stick taped together...
polish the long walls of the hole smooth...
the dowel wants to move freely/nicely in the slot but not sloppily....

if you use neutral colored dowels you can either accent or blend them w/ a drop or two of stain.... even grain match them some...

*Reminders:*
chamfer often - avoid sharp shoulders...
you don't have to RO - just knock/soften the sharp edges...
score the cuts..
they still splinter???
lay down masking tape and score the wood through the tape... 


another - *WHEW!!!*


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

windhollowfarm said:


> Three sources of heat, which we use different times of the year - inside wood boiler (we have the old cast iron short radiators), gas boiler, and gas furnace with forced air. Gas furnace we tend to use when it isn't as cold, the boiler is used more often. No humidifier or dehumidifier - have AC but rarely need to use it. Quite a bit of cooking and baking.


WTB your windows fog/steam/frost during the winter...

add some fudge factor to compensate for wide swings of humidity...
the wood moves in relation to MC% proportional to humidity/temperature...


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## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Stick486 said:


> *WHEW!!!*


Double Whew!!! So glad you added this new info - from everything I've read about BB's, they snug the board tight against the end grain and I really do not want to cause any splitting. You have written the steps out so clearly and with so many great tips - thank you! Ever think about writing a book?

Grin - is there anything else I am missing? (After your fingers have recouperated a bit)


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Stick486 said:


> but make the tenon dowel holes offset (towards the shoulder) from the BB dowel holes by 1/16th" for a snug fit.
> *you went the wrong way and didn't allow for the BB's expansion...*
> 
> The BB is 5-1/2" wide - based on your calculations above, the most movement would be .13" or a little over an 1/8".
> ...


Do I ever stand corrected...
Elley you are correct on the snug fit...
you do need to know your wood's MC though and which way it's going to move... 

single digit percentage = loose fit...
double digit percentage = snug fit...

*do your windows fog/steam/frost up every winter???*
if they do, this says you have high humidity in the house...


----------



## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Stick486 said:


> *do your windows fog/steam/frost up every winter???*
> if they do, this says you have high humidity in the house...


The windows only fog up if we have a lot of water heating up on the stove, so a few times in the winter.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

*More tips...*

*center finding:* ("Thales Theorem")

take your ruler and place zero inches on one edge....
move the ruler diagonally across the piece till you read a number at the other edge easily divisible by two...
divide...
that number is is the center... find it on the ruler and make your mark...

*to find that IRL measure of center...*

measure from the edge to the mark w/ the ruler perpendicular to the edge...

*center finding ruler...*

lay the ruler on the piece and shift left or rigt till the measures are the same to both edges...
mark the zero...

*Go to this link* and hit the run button. No math required.

Finding the center of a circle with any right-angled object - Math Open Reference

*this look familiar???*

It's done as fast-motion video....
note the joints, outriggers and diagonal bracing...

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=765116590175069

*lots of alternate plans, tips and ideas:*

http://www.leevalley.com/US/home/Videos.aspx
http://www.leevalley.com/US/home/OptInStartN.aspx
http://www.leevalley.com/US/home/ArticleMain.aspx
http://www.leevalley.com/US/home/Letters.aspx


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

Thanks Stick....


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## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Such great tips!! Thanks! And that table was AWESOME. He was finished so quickly, lol.


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## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Would it make sense to make the BB ends a touch longer than the tabletop to help camouflage the wood movement - say 1/8" on each end? Or is that just a bad idea?


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

windhollowfarm said:


> Such great tips!! Thanks! And that table was AWESOME. He was finished so quickly, lol.


I trust you caught the outriggers and joinery...


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

windhollowfarm said:


> Would it make sense to make the BB ends a touch longer than the tabletop to help camouflage the wood movement - say 1/8" on each end? Or is that just a bad idea?


IRL, after finishing, I have this gut feeling the top is not going to move what the calculations say but some where's only around 3/8 to 1/2" tops... and I lean heavily to the 3/8"... 
The BB, you may see an 1/8" length wise (and that's stretching it) if you are lucky.. or would that be unlucky???

leaving the ends of the top unsealed allowed the top to absorb moisture raising the MC% on humid days ....
wood takes on moisture easier than it gets rid of it... 
are the ends split, checked or cracked at all??? if it is, it's the result of the cause/effect/affect of *↑↓*MC%...

I trust you kept track of the real time movement (periodic width measures) of the top since you've had it...
this may be a day late and a dollar short - But I hope all of the material for the table is stored together... different locations generate different MC's...

all in all, knowing your MC% is pretty important for a successful project.. single digit MC - *Way to go Elley!!! *double digit and you need to fix this... 
once you get to single digit... seal it (applied finish) and you will have a very stable table...

you asked about how to tell the differences in sawn wood... (condensed rehashed version)...
Go back to your PDF's to study which way the wood is going to move relative to it's sawing...
Remember - QS is more stable than RS.. RS is more stable than FS...

so which sawing(s) is your top made up from and which season (early/late) wood do you have or combination there of??? A mix of everything is why the movement call is hard/tough to make....
guessing can sometimes suck...

*Sassafras:*
Ring-porous; large earlywood pores 3-6 rows wide, small latewood pores solitary and radial multiples of 2-4...

















*now to answer your question...*

if the the MC's of the BB and top match or are eyelash close... flush cut the BB to the top.. if not on the MC's, work at getting them to...
we are going to assume that your MC is single digit... the M&T is installed.. dowels are located but not installed... your M&T is waxed since you are not gluing...
Wax seals the wood against checking, cracking and splitting that will show up over time at the ends of the table... A lot or a little but they will show up.. take and old M&T apart some time.. often the tenon is in pretty rough shape...
also the wax provides lubrication for when the wood does move... 

*Note:*
keep the wax off of the to be finished surfaces... protect the to be finished surfaces against the wax w/ packaging tape - it's impervious compared to masking and duct tape... tape residue, if any, is a mineral spirits clean up...
but if you do mange to get it where you rather not have any...
harden the wax by holding a bag of ice cubes against the wax to freeze it (not the wood)... Then using your scraper gently scrape the wax off... Wash/remove the wax film, if any, w/ mineral spirits...
Remember to buff out any applied wax to hardness and don't leave any "clumps" behind...

Back to the question...

install (clamp) the BB's w/o the dowels...
I trust you are going to RO the bottom edge of the top for the top's preservation and the sitter's thighs protection... if so, do this now.. WTB you are going to find a 3/8 or 1/2" RO w/o shoulders is the ticket... experiment 1st - as always...
no doubt you will RO the top edge too...
Consider a thumb nail profile RO over a conventional RO... more camo, it's a very nice accent and easy on the forearms but uncomfortable on the elbows... recommend that you don't cut a shoulder into the top either... cut shoulders, they look nice but can magnify blems and encourage edge splintering in the wood... this is no time for a tear out... 
if you need to blend the RO use your pad sander and not the ROS.. don't dally either... a lot of quick strokes win out over a slow easy travel...

Molding & Edging :: Edging :: X-Large Thumbnail Table Edge Router Bit - 1/2" Shank - Yonico 13143

remove the BB's...
using your hand driven sanding pad slightly "bust" the sharp edges/corners of the RO's on the top and the BB... when reassembled you will have a slight dimple between the mating surfaces... this creates and illusion that camoes any minor offsets caused by wood movement..
Sand a little, install the BB to see where you are at.. continue till you are in your happiness...
Remember, it's easy to remove but not so easy to to put it back on.. creeping up on the final fit and finish is an asset...

*FYI/Hints:*
see attachment...
wax your pipe clamp pipes.. glue won't so readily stick to the pipes and the iron is less likely to mar/stain the wood... 
glue/iron/wood is a combination you want to stay away from... talk about loosing ground... if you need to shield the iron, use wax paper or folded layers of Saran Wrap™ or the like... don't use paper...

that's it... coffee anyone???


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

BTW...
This is the stuff..


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

This is link to a some very helpful/quality information.

Nick Engler's Workshop Companion, Home page for www.workshopcompanion.com and www.nickengler.com


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## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Stick486 said:


> I trust you caught the outriggers and joinery...


Definitely! It was beautiful.


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

we ready to start putting this master piece together???


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

these are worth bringing back up to the top...
compliments/KUDOS to Harry for them....


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## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Stick486 said:


> these are worth bringing back up to the top...
> compliments/KUDOS to Harry for them....


Thank you!! Been down with a cold this last week, but got to see how the RO looked on the sassafras yesterday - I chose the 1/8" RO and just love how it looks. Hoping to work on the apron ends this week and will try to post a pic.


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

windhollowfarm said:


> Thank you!! Been down with a cold this last week, but got to see how the RO looked on the sassafras yesterday - I chose the 1/8" RO and just love how it looks. Hoping to work on the apron ends this week and will try to post a pic.


you going to make the M&T???


----------



## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Stick486 said:


> you going to make the M&T???


Starting to work on the base first. . .then the M&T.


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

windhollowfarm said:


> Thank you!! Been down with a cold this last week, but got to see how the RO looked on the sassafras yesterday - I chose the 1/8" RO and just love how it looks. Hoping to work on the apron ends this week and will try to post a pic.


how extensive did the RO'ing get to be...

I trust you are keeping your bits clean...


----------



## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Stick486 said:


> how extensive did the RO'ing get to be...
> 
> I trust you are keeping your bits clean...


Yup! Keeping the bits clean! Thanks!

I just tried the RO on a practice lap joint and on the edges of a scrap - wanted to get used to using the bit and see if the 1/8" would look right. Will try and post a pic later.

Which of these two bits would work best for grooving the 3/4" dowels?


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

windhollowfarm said:


> Which of these two bits would work best for grooving the 3/4" dowels?


either'''


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

been thinking...

when you mount your top to the frame whatever clips/brackets you choose won't be holding the BB's to the frame because the BB's are basically in free space...
if anyone tries to move the table by picking it up from the end the BB's will get snapped/broken right off...

might want to consider adding fasteners from your BB's to the outriggers in addition to the apron...


----------



## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Stick486 said:


> been thinking...
> 
> when you mount your top to the frame whatever clips/brackets you choose won't be holding the BB's to the frame because the BB's are basically in free space...
> if anyone tries to move the table by picking it up from the end the BB's will get snapped/broken right off...
> ...


Good point. Definitely would not want that to happen. And probably would not want to countersink a screw from the bottom side of the outriggers because of wood movement, so can incorporate fasteners.


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

windhollowfarm said:


> Good point. Definitely would not want that to happen. And probably would not want to countersink a screw from the bottom side of the outriggers because of wood movement, so can incorporate fasteners.


large hole and a screw w/ a mortised in expansion washer would be better...
strongest way for the outriggers...
besides... total wood movement of the BB's is negligible..
the warning flag in my head says that the offset clips may not be up to the task...

Expansion Washers - Lee Valley Tools










we discussed putting a screw in the blind half laps and I said what for...
after thinking about the BB's getting fastened to the outriggers...
I believe I would install that screw in the half laps now on the side of caution...
install them from the underside... come time to remove the top you pull the four screws in the edge apron's half laps and when the top comes off the edge aprons should go w/ it...
of course you'd have to remove the clips from the end aprons along w/ the center beam's expansion washer screws...

*Do I use the canning wax or paste wax on the joints that I would like to disassemble later?*

yes on the wax, after the finish, because I trust you are going to finish (poly) the ends, mortises and mating surfaces of these joints that you may be disassembling at a later date to help control moisture absorption and movement......
*after the finish* because you don't want to accidentally get wax where the finish is for show...
Even wax the tops of the apron before you install the top... poly to poly surfaces tend to anneal/stick somewhat to each other over time as though they were glued together... 
make sure you buff that wax out well...

*tips...*
the washers are installed perpendicular to the top's running grain...
(the pic shows a cut away view)... 
suggest you mortise for the washer about a 1/4 to 1/2" deep tops and use a longer screw...
GRK's to the rescue again...
set them 2/3 to 3/4 of the distance between the end of the out rigger and the end apron for a single mounting.....
there's nothing preventing you from setting a washer at the 1/4 measure and the 3/4 measure for tandem mounting...
for these washers to work right, the bottom of the mortise has to be flat and parallel to the top..... 

*note..*
I have taken down more timber frame construction than I care to think about...
the joints that were bees' waxed came apart the easiest and were in, for the most part, in the most pristine condition... they showed little or no checking, cracking, rot, insect infestation and wear...
in second place was coal tar...
third was thickened creosote...
untreated - the majority of the joints were in dismal condition to include a lot of rot caused by wet/dry cycling...

*other observations...*
pole barns that had the pole ends sealed w/ wax and set in pea gravel were in mighty fine shape even after 150+ years...
the poles that came in contact or set w/ concrete or mortar were rotted virtually at a 100% fail rate... even after 10 years...
same for 75+YO fence posts... 100% reusable.... (moved miles and miles of fence line my GF put in as a kid) 
posts set in concrete showed rot in only a few years...
and man did I hate collecting the bees' wax for projects...


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

about that waxing....

every joint that you put together that you intend on taking apart I trust you'll be waxing to include the dowels and their sockets.....

a shot gun mop/swab or a soft bottle brush with a wire wound shaft in your cordless is great for doing the sockets...


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

got progress???
we done yet???


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## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Stick486 said:


> got progress???
> we done yet???


LOL! Not done yet! We are having our Indian Summer, and am really hoping to get a good chunk of the base finished this week - going to finish up the lap joints and misc today, and hope to start on the pinning part tomorrow. We'll see how it goes - I tend to be overly optimistic about how much I can accomplish. 

Thanks for all the great info! It cleared up what I was thinking for attaching the BB and outriggers. . .and the info on cutting down on the sassafras splintering has been a big help while working on all the pieces.

It does seem as if I spend 20 minutes on clamping and making sure everything is lined up for 2 minutes of routing. . . :blink:


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

windhollowfarm said:


> LOL! - I tend to be overly optimistic about how much I can accomplish.


where have I heard that before....
*SNORK!!!!*


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

something else to consider... leg pads...
protect the floors and the edges of the tables legs from splintering/chipping it the table should be slid/moved...
1st choice..
Shop Waxman 2-Pack 4-1/2-in x 6-in Brown Square Felt Pad at Lowes.com
2nd choice...
Shop Waxman 2-Pack 4-in Rubber Pads at Lowes.com


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Geez, Stick, I hope you're getting paid!! LOL
That info on wax retarding rot was all new to me; great stuff, thanks for that !
Wood contact with concrete is, as you state, bad ju-ju. I've started wrapping my p.t. fence posts with TYVEK to about 8" above the concrete setting mix (3 wraps all the way around). I figure should some damn fool want to pull them out after I'm dust, it'll make it a lot simpler for them. Just so long as *I* don't have to redo them in this lifetime...


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

DaninVan said:


> Geez, Stick, I hope you're getting paid!! LOL
> That info on wax retarding rot was all new to me; great stuff, thanks for that !
> Wood contact with concrete is, as you state, bad ju-ju. I've started wrapping my p.t. fence posts with TYVEK to about 8" above the concrete setting mix (3 wraps all the way around). I figure should some damn fool want to pull them out after I'm dust, it'll make it a lot simpler for them. Just so long as *I* don't have to redo them in this lifetime...


so why not a thread on fence posts???
dare ya...


----------



## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

OKay...


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## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Stick486 said:


> something else to consider... leg pads...
> protect the floors and the edges of the tables legs from splintering/chipping it the table should be slid/moved...


Thank you! Haven't even thought that far yet, and those types you posted look like good ones. Been spending at least three hours every day this week on the table - really hoping to share some progress pics soon. Attaching a couple of pics showing the RO on a scrap. Really like how it softens the look.

Drilled dowel holes yesterday and today - making dowel pins tomorrow. . .


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

windhollowfarm said:


> Attaching a couple of pics showing the RO on a scrap. Really like how it softens the look.


that's one well executed dado..


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Stick486 said:


> that's one well executed dado..


+1. Well done.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

how's the frame coming along???


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## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Stick486 said:


> how's the frame coming along???


It's coming along nicely! Hoping to fit the base together today so I can measure and make the stretcher and diagonal braces. It was kind of fun making the dowel pins. . .

Have to put on my list to get a wood rasp though, that would help with making joints flush.

Will try and post a pic later. . .


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

windhollowfarm said:


> .
> 
> Have to put on my list to get a wood rasp though, that would help with making joints flush.
> 
> *Will try and post a pic later*. . .


Please do...

look for smoothing files, cabinetmakers, pattern makers rasps and don't forget the file cleaner...
today's Nicholson files are a stay away from item...

Wood and Cabinet Rasps - Lee Valley Tools
File Cleaner - Lee Valley Tools


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

windhollowfarm said:


> It's coming along nicely! .


I can believe this...
now how have the BB M&T sessions been progressing???


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## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Stick486 said:


> I can believe this...
> now how have the BB M&T sessions been progressing???


Thanks everyone! Here is the progress so far. The turkeys wanted to help.  As soon as I finish the stretcher and bracing, I need to make a practice M&T BB - hoping for this coming week.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

windhollowfarm said:


> Thanks everyone! Here is the progress so far. The turkeys wanted to help.  As soon as I finish the stretcher and bracing, I need to make a practice M&T BB - hoping for this coming week.


I am impressed....
would you mind telling us how ya did yur joinery...

now get it out of the dirt....
save one those guys for lunch while yur at it too...


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## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Stick486 said:


> I am impressed....
> would you mind telling us how ya did yur joinery...
> 
> now get it out of the dirt....
> save one those guys for lunch while yur at it too...


Thank you! Couldn't have done it without all of your knowledge and help. Yup, out of the dirt - that was the only relatively flat spot to set it up.

I did the joinery just as you said - marked very carefully, and scored before cutting. Used a 2" straight bit/router after precutting and chiseling out the waste. Checked for fit a gazillion times - also numbered everything so I knew what went where. Used an old rasp and hand sanded if it needed a little adjusting. Didn't want to mess up a good joint by accidentally taking too much off with the router.

For the dowel joinery I used a scrap from one of the legs (it had the correct angle cut) and drilled four pilot holes to use as a jig - using that and the forstner bit with the drill guide and clamps I was able to drill the holes without a press. For marking the opposing holes, I wasn't able to cut the spade bit short enough for a marker, so I used a short piece of 3/4" dowel and finish nail driven through the center of the dowel piece to mark (took three different tries to get it right in the center) I could tap the dowel in so just the tip of the nail was seen, and I used pliers to pull it out (that worked about three times, then the nail pulled out without the dowel  then I got smart and used a short drywall screw instead of a nail. I also used a black sharpie on the end of the nail to make sure I was looking at the right mark.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

windhollowfarm said:


> Thank you! Couldn't have done it without all of your knowledge and help. Yup, out of the dirt - that was the only relatively flat spot to set it up.
> 
> I did the joinery just as you said - marked very carefully, and scored before cutting. Used a 2" straight bit/router after precutting and chiseling out the waste. Checked for fit a gazillion times - also numbered everything so I knew what went where. Used an old rasp and hand sanded if it needed a little adjusting. Didn't want to mess up a good joint by accidentally taking too much off with the router.
> 
> For the dowel joinery I used a scrap from one of the legs (it had the correct angle cut) and drilled four pilot holes to use as a jig - using that and the forstner bit with the drill guide and clamps I was able to drill the holes without a press. For marking the opposing holes, I wasn't able to cut the spade bit short enough for a marker, so I used a short piece of 3/4" dowel and finish nail driven through the center of the dowel piece to mark (took three different tries to get it right in the center) I could tap the dowel in so just the tip of the nail was seen, and I used pliers to pull it out (that worked about three times, then the nail pulled out without the dowel  then I got smart and used a short drywall screw instead of a nail. I also used a black sharpie on the end of the nail to make sure I was looking at the right mark.


now I'm really impressed...
that frame really looks great...

I really want that KUDOS button for occasions like you and your work... 
so accept the stupid "add reputation" set up instead if you will...

you could have cut the spade's bit body to make it short enough to fit......


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

windhollowfarm said:


> Yup, out of the dirt - that was the only relatively flat spot to set it up.


assembly deck in your future???
add a pop-up canopy and you'd be down town...

come finishing time you just... HMMMmmmm....


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

windhollowfarm said:


> Thanks everyone! Here is the progress so far..


can we have a pic or two of the joints close up???
did you use the GRKs or did you glue up the trestles???


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## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Stick486 said:


> you could have cut the spade's bit body to make it short enough to fit......


Grin - yes, except I couldn't figure out how to cut it. The hacksaw was MIA (kids - got to love 'em), and the bolt cutters didn't work. . .my hubby was on a business trip and I didn't want to wait. . .lol.


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## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Stick486 said:


> can we have a pic or two of the joints close up???
> did you use the GRKs or did you glue up the trestles???


Will try to post a pic today - haven't used the GRKs or glue yet. This is just a rough put together to make sure everything fits - as soon as all the pieces are in place, I'll drill the holes for the screws and finish sanding and seal everything. Those diagonal braces are going to have to be pretty much spot on. And I'll have a place to put the table top when I'm finished with the BB.


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## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Stick486 said:


> assembly deck in your future???
> add a pop-up canopy and you'd be down town...
> 
> come finishing time you just... HMMMmmmm....



Someday a workshop. . .lol. Until then, once I get to the finishing part it comes in the house, and my family very patiently puts up with it until it's finished and assembled. Thankfully, all the pieces of the table come apart!!!


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Ummmmmmmmmm....
not to be pushy....
about those pictures you mentioned....

okay.. so it's nagging a bit....


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## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Stick486 said:


> Ummmmmmmmmm....
> not to be pushy....
> about those pictures you mentioned....
> 
> okay.. so it's nagging a bit....


lol, I'm here. . Monday was crazy, only had 30 minutes to work on it but today I was able to get some good work done - holes drilled for all the screws as well as the first set of dowel holes drilled into the diagonal bracing. Tomorrow I'm hoping to finish the doweling and RO the diagonals and stretcher. Then I'll be ready for a sand and seal on the base before staining. I just might be able to get a practice MT done this week, leaving next week for the table top. I'm really excited to see it taking shape.

Posting some pics of the joins - they are tight even though some angles and the RO make it seem otherwise. . I did take down the apron joint a little more, it wasn't quite flush. Also posted a pic of my crazy clamping set up - it worked!

I did call around and the only paste wax that is available locally is Trewax or Minwax - is one better than the other? Otherwise I can order the Johnson paste wax. . .


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

windhollowfarm said:


> View attachment 74351
> 
> 
> lol, I'm here. . Monday was crazy, only had 30 minutes to work on it but today I was able to get some good work done - holes drilled for all the screws as well as the first set of dowel holes drilled into the diagonal bracing. Tomorrow I'm hoping to finish the doweling and RO the diagonals and stretcher. Then I'll be ready for a sand and seal on the base before staining. I just might be able to get a practice MT done this week, leaving next week for the table top. I'm really excited to see it taking shape.
> ...



so that *was one* of some outstanding work but you suggested plural...

if the Minwax is this stuff go for it...
Minwax Paste Finishing Wax - Wood Polish & Protection | Minwax
Trewax would be my 1st choice...
http://toolsforworkingwood.com/store/item/MS-TREWAX


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## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Stick486 said:


> so that *was one* of some outstanding work but you suggested plural...
> 
> if the Minwax is this stuff go for it...
> Minwax Paste Finishing Wax - Wood Polish & Protection | Minwax
> ...


Yup - Internet was having fits last night. Thanks for the suggestions on the paste wax!


----------



## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Another view.


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## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Clamping set up.


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## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

One of the dowel joints.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

windhollowfarm said:


> Clamping set up.


So much for the KUDOS button... and you'd never know that "add to reputation" was used unless you were told...
I'm sorry but I'm not buying into your "I'm just a novice" status anymore...
Well done...

*Safety notes: (and some hints/suggestions/demands)
(you are working w/ a brittle wood)...*

Those ridges you left at the bottom of the mortise from the saw kerfing operation....
*not a good pan...*
The router has a tendency to tear them loose rather than cut them producing chunks of wood...
These chunks can become projectiles putting you at risk.... viewing things cyclopticly has it's down side...
a bigger chunk, like a piece of dense knot, can hang up in the bit and the cut acting as a wedge and in effect causing a "kickback"...
this could be detrimental to the project or cause the router to be momentarily "out of control" putting you at risk....
Tearing rather than cutting the wood, more often than not, isn't good for aesthetics either..
Use your chisel or your shop made router plane to get rid of them... 
only takes a few seconds and the effort more than pays for it's self...

*those temporary router carrier/support blocks...*
I know you left them open so that the saw dust had some place to go....
then again, maybe, that's all ya had...
make the carrier all the way across...
need a third hand to hold the block while positioning???
use tape...
tape them in place.. add the clamps (snuggly)... adjust for position w/ your hammer... tighten the clamp.. remove the tape...
you can not believe how much/often I use packaging tape... 
and the stuff is cheap... cheaper than duct or masking tape....
even have a dispensers for it... hand held and like the desk top Scotch tape dispensers... even have it in 3 and 4" widths...
more often than not it works better too...
When I do this I drill a hole in one of the carriers and plug my DC or shop vac into it to keep the saw dust under control... It's not perfect but it works fairly well...
Also, w/ one clamp the resonation/vibration generated by the router will cause them to creep... usually downwards...
We're sure you don't want to unintentionally change your parameters or make an offset that will hang up the router base......
and add a clamp... two clamps to the carriers please...

*augmenting those temporary router carrier/support blocks...*
you safely have cut the left and right sides of the mortise leaving the middle/center of the mortise to be done...
no router rocking and plenty of surface for the router to ride on...
cut two blocks from scraps to fit the depth/width/length of cleaned portions of the mortise...
this closes the width of the mortise gap and gives your router a lot more support....


*the clamps..*
the right clamp for the speed square is great... the left not so good...
the resonation/vibration generated by the router will cause it to pivot because of the clamp's position...
I *always* use two clamps... I've had them move... grrrrrrrrrrr.........

assuming you are cutting from the picture taking side of the work turn the left side clamp around like the one on the right...
this presents less for the router's cord to hang up on...
if your router's cord "hangs" up you could relinquish some of the control you have on your router and that is more often than not a good thing...

*never ever wrap that cord around your neck or over your shoulder to keep it out of the way...*
if you were to drop your router, running or not and it does happen, the cord around your neck will stop the router from falling and it swings into you causing injury be it a bruise, cut, laceration or a major ER visit because you gutted yourself or cut arteries... 
*I know this for fact.. *

also.. your clamps are *danger close* to the mortise...
*get them further away...*
you can pretty much figure out why I say this.. experience.. only takes an instant for things to go to hades...

clean all of that rust off of the bars and wax the bars...
you get that rust into your project... you just may cry...
your kids need to help w/ this project anyways...(hint)...
build up your speed clamp collection... the simple 12" clamps rule and those F clamps will collect dust...
SL300 One Handed Bar Clamps / Spreaders - Tools - IRWIN TOOLS
I found the knock off versions like the ones from harbor freight to be a major let down and inadequate...

*the speed squares*
the right is correct.. the left one needs to point the other way (180º)...
since you pull the router to you when you cut the right side the extended tip of the square makes for a better guide.. and the left side cut is a move the router away from you so the same rules apply....
sure is nice not to add sniping into the equation...

*that extension cord*
is it a 16 or 14 gage hundred footer???
if so you may be starving your tools electrically (lowered operating voltage) which will generate heat in the tools that they can't handle.... 
*solutions...*
heavier shorter cords...
move closer to the electricity source... the further you get away from the meter the more detrimental it can be to your tools...
no sense in encouraging the early demise of your tools...

*hints..*
uses for packaging tape..
third hand...
glue shield...
clamping...
slick surface...
edge marking instead of a pencil line...
easy finger erasable reference marks/notes on the project... write on the tape w/ a felt tip - no bleed through either...


*please.. there is not one word of criticism in this post...*


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

windhollowfarm said:


> One of the dowel joints.


Way to go Elley...


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

windhollowfarm said:


> I did call around and the only paste wax that is available locally is Trewax


forgot to mention...

Trewax for boats and cars has silicone in it...
silicone will absolutely tear up your finish/finishes/finishing...
stay away from those two...
floor and furniture is good to go...


----------



## lenh (Feb 27, 2009)

Hey Moderators - is it time to start a new forum? "The Stick and Elley Show"


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

lenh said:


> hey moderators - is it time to start a new forum? "the stick and elley show"


*snork!!!!*


----------



## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Stick486 said:


> So much for the KUDOS button... and you'd never know that "add to reputation" was used unless you were told...
> I'm sorry but I'm not buying into your "I'm just a novice" status anymore...
> Well done...
> 
> ...


Thank you so much! I knew that there was a reason I posted the clamping picture. I have learned so much from the beginning of this thread. All of it great info, and most of it I wouldn't have learned until it was too late. I greatly appreciate all the time and space it has taken, and also a big thanks to the moderators for letting it veer off course a bit  and enabling the learning!


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

are you ready to do the BB's???


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

just wondering...


----------



## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Stick486 said:


> just wondering...


Had to duck out for a bit and take care of some family things going on. . .but, back and making some progress! I have the base stained and almost clear-coated. Need to wax the joint areas before assembling, but hoping to get that finished this weekend.

I was able to start the BB yesterday, and I have to say it was easier than I thought! It definitely helps to triple check everything. I made up a practice MT first, and the jig that was recommended for the mortise cuts worked out great! I have the tenon cut on the table and the mortise cut in the BB - just have to fine tune the fit, and prepare and make the dowel holes. Still deciding if I want to see the dowel ends on the BB or not. 

Have to get to town so I can pick up some dowels. . .


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

windhollowfarm said:


> Had to duck out for a bit and take care of some family things going on. . .but, back and making some progress! I have the base stained and almost clear-coated. Need to wax the joint areas before assembling, but hoping to get that finished this weekend.
> 
> I was able to start the BB yesterday, and I have to say it was easier than I thought! It definitely helps to triple check everything. I made up a practice MT first, and the jig that was recommended for the mortise cuts worked out great! I have the tenon cut on the table and the mortise cut in the BB - just have to fine tune the fit, and prepare and make the dowel holes. Still deciding if I want to see the dowel ends on the BB or not.
> 
> Have to get to town so I can pick up some dowels. . .


Hope all is well...

look at the room/location this will be in...
rustic or fine craftsmanship....
exposed - rustic...
if you expose - expose everywhere... (I hope you read that as intended)...
concealed -other...
if you conceal - conceal everywhere... 
mixing detracts....


----------



## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Stick486 said:


> if you conceal - conceal everywhere...
> mixing detracts....


All is well, thanks!  And just the info I needed to hear - since everything is concealed, I will hide the dowels. Just went back and re-read the info you posted on pegging the joint. Great stuff! Hoping to finish up today. (Besides the staining, coating, etc. . .)


----------



## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

I hope you're planning to post some pics when you're done Elley.


----------



## Messy (Oct 27, 2014)

Most excellent thread.


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## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> I hope you're planning to post some pics when you're done Elley.


It's done! Everyone absolutely loves it, and I am so happy with how it turned out. Couldn't have done it without all the help and advice of all who chimed in, especially Stick! There is such great info in this thread. I was a little nervous assembling it, you never know if something little is going to be off or if it's all going to come together nicely or not. 34" wide turned out to be just the right width - enough room for the plates and still have food on the table. The benches look okay, need to go back and restain them to match - we had thought to go with a light stain on the table, but ended up and liked the darker stain in the end - of course. Another project for another day. Right now it's time to wrap things up for winter and start planning a new project for next year.


----------



## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Pic added.


----------



## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

End view. .


----------



## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

BB end. . .


----------



## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Better view of bracing. . .


----------



## Messy (Oct 27, 2014)

Hello.
I can see every detail that was addressed in this thread. (read every single word)
Your table is gorgeous and the work is impeccable. The details are perfect.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Messy said:


> *Your table is gorgeous and the work is impeccable. The details are perfect.*


Ditto!!!
I'm impressed...
Now would you like to recant you declaration of being a novice???


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## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Thank you, Messy and Stick! Hmmm - are you sure I'm ready to change my status? I still feel like a newbie.


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

windhollowfarm said:


> Hmmm - are you sure I'm ready to change my status? I still feel like a newbie.



I'm sure... as in very sure...
none here will disagree either...


----------



## Messy (Oct 27, 2014)

windhollowfarm said:


> Thank you, Messy and Stick! Hmmm - are you sure I'm ready to change my status? I still feel like a newbie.


Please don't thank me. What you have done here is all your fault. You have the bull by the horns now Elley. Be proud.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Beautifully executed, Elley!
(Now _that's_ a table I'd trust for protection in an earthquake!! )


----------



## shuja.shaher (Oct 18, 2014)

is it necessary to hog out with drilling? Can't the straight bit do the work?


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

shuja.shaher said:


> is it necessary to hog out with drilling? Can't the straight bit do the work?


sure it can but why make the bit do more than it has to???
hogging saves a tremendous amount of wear on the bit...


----------



## Messy (Oct 27, 2014)

Stick486 said:


> and man did I hate collecting the bees' wax for projects...


Wimp.


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Messy said:


> Wimp.


yup...


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

did you take your table and jump ship???


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## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Stick486 said:


> did you take your table and jump ship???


Still here! Just not active on the boards right now. I can't work on woodworking projects too much during the winter, so I am focusing on some inside work on the house, and if I see what everyone is working on it will make me want to build. 
Don't worry, I have a list of things I'd like to make in the spring, lol.

Heading back to work on mudding some drywall. . .


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## jbroweleit (Dec 16, 2014)

Elley, have you completed the mortise and tenons that you describe above? I also want to make a table. How did you determine how deep and how wide to make the mortise and tenon to get the strength you need for your particular project.


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## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

jbroweleit said:


> Elley, have you completed the mortise and tenons that you describe above? I also want to make a table. How did you determine how deep and how wide to make the mortise and tenon to get the strength you need for your particular project.


Welcome to the boards! Yes, I have completed the mortise and tenons that were described above, and hope I can help answer some of your questions. If you can go back through the thread, there is a lot of womderful information in this thread as well!

From reading on many different woodworking sites, and invaluable input from others, the general rule of thumb for tenon depth is 5x the thickness of the tenon, or approximately half width of the joining wood. The rule of thumb for the thickness of the tenon is that it should be approximately 1/3 (or a fuzz more) of the wood thickness. You can go up to 1/2 the thickness of the joining wood if your lumber is thicker stock (5/4 and above). It also helps to keep the measurements simple - keep to 1/16ths, not 32nds or 64ths.

I was using 5/4 lumber, and my breadboard end was 5 1/2" wide. I chose to use 3/8" for the thickness of the tenon because of the type of wood I was using. My tenon length should have been 2-1/4", but since I changed the design of the table to include support under the BB ends, I ended up and used a 2" tenon. I also used one wide tenon and one wide mortise that went almost the full width of the table, I stopped it about 3/4" from each end (with the tenon not as wide as the mortise to allow for wood movement).

I hope this helps! What type of table are you thinking of building?


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## jcayer (Aug 22, 2014)

Superb job ! I'm planning on making a table next spring, I'll be reading this thread over again ...

This is a most informative thread !!! (subscribed ! )


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Hey Elley..

found this better drill guide...

Portable Drill Guide Jigs: Guide Jig for Portable Drill, Angle Drilling Jig


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## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Hey, that looks like it has good reviews - thanks! Definitely will be adding that to my arsenal. It's almost the project time of the year.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

windhollowfarm said:


> Hey, that looks like it has good reviews - thanks! Definitely will be adding that to my arsenal. It's almost the project time of the year.


what's up next???


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## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Stick486 said:


> what's up next???


I've been drawing up plans for a desk with a hutch for my two younger daughters. I would like to finish the trim in their room before I can get started though - and it needs to warm up a bit more outside before I can do that.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

take a moment to see this thread...
Oliver did a great job rendering two jigs that will be very helpful to you....

http://www.routerforums.com/general-routing/60401-setups-rout-wide-long-area.html


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Stick486 said:


> take a moment to see this thread...
> Oliver did a great job rendering two jigs that will be very helpful to you....
> 
> http://www.routerforums.com/general-routing/60401-setups-rout-wide-long-area.html


 @windhollowfarm...

were Oliver's jigs of any use???


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

How to Cut Mortises with a Plunge Router - Fine Woodworking Video

compliments of @Ray Newman....

http://www.routerforums.com/jigs-fixtures/68201-jig-morticing-plunge-router.html#post664921


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## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Stick, thank you for keeping the great info coming! I haven't had much time to try things out or do much woodworking yet this spring - my two oldest are in drivers ed and we'll be needing to clock 60 hours of driving this summer. . .but I'm still here and still thinking up things to build.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

@windhollowfarm...
glad to see you're still around....
table holding up??? I hope...


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## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Most definitely! Everyone loves it - and it's still a little unbelievable that I actually accomplished what I did, even though it's right here in the dining room.  There was some wood movement - but I think it adds to the charm and am not bothered by it a bit.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

@windhollowfarm

Most definitely! 
*WHEW!!!
*
Everyone loves it - 
*did you expect anything less???...
*
and it's still a little unbelievable that I actually accomplished what I did, even though it's right here in the dining room.  
*WTB nobody here finds it unbelievable...
*
There was some wood movement - 
*so tell me more...
*
but I think it adds to the charm and am not bothered by it a bit.
*ya gotta love stuff w. character...*


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

Fantastic job on the table Elley!!! A project you should rightfully take great pride in... well done


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

@windhollowfarm...

Hello Elley...
just wondering how the table and you are doing...


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## windhollowfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Hi Stick!
All is going well, and the table is still standing! It is very sturdy, lol. Also, it's hardly ever not in use, with all the schoolwork, eating, and working - which is how it's supposed to be. There has been a little movement on each side of the breadboard ends. About 1/8" to just under 1/4" - not too bad I think. The midwest gets quite a bit of humidity. It also adds to the character. I do wish that I could have used a harder wood - but I do really like how the sassafras turned out, and it was what was available to me at the time. I haven't been able to fit much woodworking in - though I'm hoping to in the future. I really enjoyed the project, and every time I look at the table I remember all the help and encouragement - and what an accomplishment it was!

Hope all is well,
take care,
Elley


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Hello Elley...
glad to hear all is well... 
was beginning to think you hit and run...
Sassafras is a stable wood... 
I enjoyed it too...

you take care...


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## bryansong (Mar 4, 2015)

Stick486 said:


> Make life simple, go with the full length M&T... shoulder cut the two outside ends...
> *do not* off set the mortise slot....
> with wood movement and stresses you are setting yourself up a possible failure....



Stick,

I am making a work bench breadboard ends top 1 1/2" Birch from WoodCraft. I'm going Breadboard because I need to extend the top a few inches to span my cabinet.

Given that this will be my first Mortise and Tenon joinery the Full Length M&T is looking pretty attractive to me. The *ends* will be supported by the cabinet (3 sides) and I'm guessing they'll probably be 24" X 4 or 5". I could cut the mortise on the table saw using multiple cuts and that seems an easy way to go but if I choose to use the router table do you recommend using an up spiral bit?

Looking at the tenon, I saw a video where the guy used a bit with a roller bearing. That too seems like the best way for me to go. 

What do you think? What router bit should I get?


Bryan


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

On a long joint like that, you might want to drill a hole through the table portion near each end, through the mortise portion, and then elongate the tennon hole to allow for expansion. Glue in the center, pegs near the ends. That will keep the piece flush to the table, but still allow for expansion and contraction.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

bryansong said:


> Stick,
> 
> I am making a work bench breadboard ends top 1 1/2" Birch from WoodCraft. I'm going Breadboard because I need to extend the top a few inches to span my cabinet.
> 
> ...


spline it w/ a 1x½'' spline....
gorilla strong, bullet proof and by far the easiest way...
cut the slots 9/16'' deep..
kant the edges of the spline a little bit before you place it...
make the spline from oak and a series of short splines is okay...
don't make the spline ''tight'' fitting but not ''loose either''...... allow for any gluing and wood movement...
glue the spline to the table top and peg it to the BB end.....
pegging the BB is well covered in this thread... 

I like my Freud slot cutter... a lot...
Freud Tools | 2" (Dia.) Stacked Slotting Set










.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

I like the idea of a spline MUCH better for this application. Far easier to make it work since you cut the groove with the end piece and table top each face down on the router table. Far easier to get those two pieces to line up perfectly across the top than with a tennon.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

free hand router the slots from the face...
way safer...


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## bryansong (Mar 4, 2015)

Whoa that's a pretty steep price for the set, but I do like that idea. I'll look into it.

Thank you both.

Bryan


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

bryansong said:


> Whoa that's a pretty steep price for the set, but I do like that idea. I'll look into it.
> 
> Thank you both.
> 
> Bryan


that is not steep for what it does.....
and it will last...


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## bryansong (Mar 4, 2015)

Stick486 said:


> that is not steep for what it does.....
> and it will last...


I agree Stick.

After my reply earlier I found myself thinking about it and it does sound like a neat idea, I bet it would look pretty nice too.
Checking your link for where to purchase one locally, I see several places in my area to check for availability.
If it has to be ordered I'll need it to get here within a week because I've got to get this thing done by Christmas.

I knew you'd come up with some answers for me.

Thanks, I'll keep you posted.

Bryan


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## bryansong (Mar 4, 2015)

Stick486 said:


> that is not steep for what it does.....
> and it will last...


I couldn't find the stack locally but I didn't check everywhere. Ordered from WoodCraft, it ships directly from Freud. I just hope it gets here fast.

One other question, do I just glue the splines to the tabletop using regular Tite Bond wood glue?

Bryan


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

TB is fine..


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## Tracie3101 (May 6, 2018)

I'm building an organ bench that is 41"x 17" seat. The apron will be approx 3-3 1/2" x " thick, and i want to use mortise and tenon into a 2"x2" leg My plan is to have the top of the mortise about 3/4" from the top and approx 2" long and 1/2" thick. Do you think that will work and will it give enough support.
Thanx for your imput.


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## Steven Owen (Aug 14, 2017)

windhollowfarm said:


> I am getting ready to start work on a dining room table which will involve a mortise and tenon breadboard joint and was wondering what types of router bits would work best to do the job.
> 
> The breadboard will have a mortise depth of between 2 1/4 and 2 1/2 inches, and will also have a continuous 1/2" groove for a stub tenon. My tenons are going to be 1/2" thick on 1 1/4" sassafras.
> 
> This will be my first mortise and tenon joint, so if anyone has any other suggestions I could use the input!


Windhallow,

The Mega Dado Planer Bit from Infinity Tools is a pretty cool option for you to make Tenon right in your router table. It’s similar to the technique you’d use would be similar to cutting tenons using a Table Saw.

The Infinity Mega Dado Bit makes cleaner Tenon cuts than a Dado blade on a table saw. It’s probably one of the more elegant Tenon cutting solutions on the market.





 

https://www.infinitytools.com/dado-planer-router-bits


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Tracie3101 said:


> I'm building an organ bench that is 41"x 17" seat. The apron will be approx 3-3 1/2" x " thick, and i want to use mortise and tenon into a 2"x2" leg My plan is to have the top of the mortise about 3/4" from the top and approx 2" long and 1/2" thick. Do you think that will work and will it give enough support.
> Thanx for your imput.


welcome Tracie...
seems your post fell through the something or another...
you still looking to build your bench...
is your top/seat mortising directly into the legs or will you have an apron???


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

@windhollowfarm... 
just wondering how you have been???


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Hi Tracie, Welcome. This is a very old discussion, I suggest you post it as a new post.

To do that, go to the top of the page, click on Forums, then on general routing. Go to that page and you'll see a list of posts, near the bottom of that column, you'll find the option to start a new discussion. Click that, type in a title and post. You'll get a lot more responses if you do that.

This particular string of posts contains a wealth of informaiton, glad to see it revived.


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