# Tablesaw problems again



## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

My patch job on my Craftsman 113.298762 let loose. The pulleys started slipping again (maybe a little more than started) on both the motor and arbor. I've heard that machined pulleys are better than the stamped ones. Seems the screws and keys keep letting loose on me. 

I like this saw, plus it's a bear to move out of the basement. Should I try it again or bite the bullet and go for a new one?

Is In Line Industries the place to go for these parts, or are there others??


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## sunnybob (Apr 3, 2015)

if its just the grub screws loosening, use some blue loctite on the thread and tighten a little bit harder.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

install one screw on top of the other as lockdown......


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

If the motor has a lot of starting torque then that might be the problem. If the arbor doesn't have a keyway and the pulleys are gripping with only grub screws then I would drill a shallow hole where the grub screw goes on the shaft. Browning sheaves are much better than the cast potmetal ones and aren't that expensive in the sizes you need and single groove. https://motorsandcontrol.com/brands/browning/v-belts-v-belt-pulleys/pulleys-sheaves/


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> If the motor has a lot of starting torque then that might be the problem. If the arbor doesn't have a keyway and the pulleys are gripping with only grub screws then I would drill a shallow hole where the grub screw goes on the shaft. Browning sheaves are much better than the cast potmetal ones and aren't that expensive in the sizes you need and single groove. https://motorsandcontrol.com/brands/browning/v-belts-v-belt-pulleys/pulleys-sheaves/


good choice of sheaves...


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## lymer (Jun 16, 2010)

My friend has a woodmizer saw mill. same problem. pulley would move on shaft. tried liquid materials on set screw. did not stop problem. Then I added silcon to both sides of key in grove. no movement since then. let it dry for at least a day


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

mulberry said:


> My friend has a woodmizer saw mill. same problem. pulley would move on shaft. tried liquid materials on set screw. did not stop problem. Then I added silcon to both sides of key in grove. no movement since then. let it dry for at least a day


what is silcon?

Just looking at the In-Line site. According to them the motor has a 2 1/2" pulley and the arbor is a 2 1/4". The ones that failed were both 2 1/2". Does that make a difference?


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## gmercer_48083 (Jul 18, 2012)

Graingers has the good pulleys, Also don't use plated keys. If your pulley doesn't have a keyway...File a flat on the shaft for the set screw to set against. Using double set screws can lead to more problems than it solves.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Lots of cures suggested to try. If they don't work, get a new, better saw. I can imagne how frustrating an unreliable tool can be. Of course, what you get will depend a lot on your budget.


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

DesertRatTom said:


> Lots of cures suggested to try. If they don't work, get a new, better saw. I can imagne how frustrating an unreliable tool can be. Of course, what you get will depend a lot on your budget.


It's not so much the budget as the weight, Tom. I have to get it down the stairs into the basement. 

Think I'll try one more fix. Then, it's time to "explore" alternatives. I got a portable contractor saw as a back up. Still got 25 custom orders to get out and a whole lot of squaring up and gluing to do, since Menards doesn't have any of my blanks in stock.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

honesttjohn said:


> what is silcon?
> 
> Just looking at the In-Line site. According to them the motor has a 2 1/2" pulley and the arbor is a 2 1/4". The ones that failed were both 2 1/2". Does that make a difference?


It affects saw rpm/torque and not much else. A larger pulley on the motor speeds the saw up and drops torque. A small pulley on the motor and large pulley on the saw arbor slows it down buts increases torque. About the slowest a 10" saw should be running is 3500 rpm. If the motor is a 3450 rpm then the pulleys should be equal size.

In thinner material a faster saw may give smoother cuts as it has more bites per minute and gullets can dump the sawdust before they overload which affects the saw staying in a straight line and produces heat which can distort the blade. Some 10" saws run at around 4500 rpm but most of those can lug down easily. In thicker material extra torque will help keep the saw from bogging down but you have to watch feed speed and not overload the gullets. So you can play with that a little if you want based on what you normally use the saw for. You can calculate saw speed by taking the saw pulley diameter and dividing it by the arbor pulley diameter and multiplying that times the motor rpm.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

DesertRatTom said:


> Lots of cures suggested to try. If they don't work, get a new, better saw. I can imagne how frustrating an unreliable tool can be. Of course, what you get will depend a lot on your budget.


Getting the old saw out of the basement is a chore. I suggest you give the Laguna Hybrid saw a look. Excellent performance and build, and when you take the wings off, it's got a reasonable footprint (for the stairs), and I was able to move it by myself (I was only 68-69 at the time). I did a lot of research before buying the Laguna. the 36 inch version was as large as I could manage in my shop, but for just about $100 more you can get a 52 inch version. It wsa on sale when I bought it at Rockler. It isn't a particularly fancy looking saw, but it is a reliable machine with belt drive, an American made Leeson motor that runs on either 115 v or 220 v. It has decent dust collection you can improve with a Shark Guard, and the table is FLAT!. The lower voltage gives 1.75 hp, adequate for up to 7 quarter material. I know there are lots of saws in this class, this is the one I chose.


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## mgmine (Jan 16, 2012)

I'm with Tom get a new saw. You'll have a good saw for the rest of your life so get the best and biggest you can afford even a good used one. Don't be too concerned about the weight you can take the top off and the motor off and that will make a large saw like a Unisaw or a Powermatic 66 very easy to move. If all else fails hire a company to take it downstairs. In the long run you'll never remember what it cost but you'll appreciate the quality of the saw. The table saw is the heart of your workshop.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Powermatic 66 was one of the saws I considered. Beautiful machine, but 500+ lbs. Not sure it will go down a staircase. Laguna packs the saw on a small pallet, completely encased in ply. Several pieces of hardware and the wings are packed separately, and the footprint of the saw will allow you to use a hand truck to move it down the stairs. I can't speak to other brands, but I suspect many of the hybrids are about the same weight, but I can only speak to the saw I own.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

look to the Bosch 4100...


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

Well,

I put new pulleys on with new keys, loc tited the screws, and fired it up. Ran quiet like it should. Stuck my chest out and said Hooray!!!!!

Crosscut 2 boards -- cut great. Started to rip a 1" pine panel -- d**n pulley slipped on the arbor. Shoved it off to the side and dug the Kobalt contractor special out and finished the cut. 

Looks like its new, or at least different, saw time. The little Kobalt is ok for an emergency, but not for all I do. Gonna start looking. Don't need a great saw - just a good one.............. reasonable.


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

Re tightened everything real good and tried it again. Trying to cut 1" pine stops the blade, then blows the breaker. Pulleys are tight, but the motor shaft is hot (this is the new Leeson) as well as the Arbor pulley and shaft. Just wondering........ Bad belt maybe?


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Take the belt off and see if the motor runs hot with no load. It shouldn't. The pulley walking off sideways is an indication that something is out of alignment usually. What blade are you using? It shouldn't make enough difference on 1" pine to do what you are describing but I'm curious. There is something not right there and the trick is to find out what it is. You can over tighten belts and that can take bearings out. Pushing a finger against the belt with good pressure should give about 1/2" of deflection as a rough rule.


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## gmercer_48083 (Jul 18, 2012)

John, I had a good friend who passed away about a year ago, who inherited a jet super saw table saw from his uncle who never used it (Died from cancer just after purchase). Anyway his son wanted to sell it and may still have it. The saw is on wheels and has the extra wing to the right, and the sliding table on the left (for cutting panels) fence, and protractor. I downloaded a picture of the basic saw from the internet to give you an idea. There is one accessory missing for the sliding table though...that bolts to the sliding table. It apparently got misplaced and was never found during the storage moves.

If you are interested I can check if he still has it, and get you connected with him.


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## gmercer_48083 (Jul 18, 2012)

forgot to upload photos


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Gary, that's a nice looking saw. Jet's a fairly good brand as well.


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## gmercer_48083 (Jul 18, 2012)

DesertRatTom said:


> Gary, that's a nice looking saw. Jet's a fairly good brand as well.


Yea, Basically never used...just moved to original owners home, then moved to storage, then to my friends home...for about a year when he died...sat for another year and his son had no interest in the saw. I sent him an email to find out if he still has it for sale. I will respond here if it is still available.

The saw was originally purchased at Woodcraft.


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

See what you can find out Gary. 2nd question - can it go down stairs to the basement?


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> Take the belt off and see if the motor runs hot with no load. It shouldn't. The pulley walking off sideways is an indication that something is out of alignment usually. What blade are you using? It shouldn't make enough difference on 1" pine to do what you are describing but I'm curious. There is something not right there and the trick is to find out what it is. You can over tighten belts and that can take bearings out. Pushing a finger against the belt with good pressure should give about 1/2" of deflection as a rough rule.


Chuck,

I did have the belt pretty tight but it ran good that way for the last year or so. Motor purrs when just running by itself. I had a Diablo 80 tooth blade on it. Then tried a Ridge Carbide 60 tooth in case it was the blade. The pulleys are tight. The blade and arbor move freely on their own with no play or noise.


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## CharleyL (Feb 28, 2009)

First, the pulley has to just barely fit on the shaft. There can be no slop. Second, vibration can back off set screws, especially if they are coarse thread.If the shaft has a key, it must fit the key way in both the shaft and the pulley with no play at all. Third, Putting in a short set screw and getting it tight, then putting in a second set screw in the same threaded hole locks the two set screws together just like tightening two nuts together on a threaded shaft. Adding blue Locktite to the set screws further prevents them from backing out, yet it's still possible to loosen them with a wrench if you should ever need to. However, before using Locktite, all of the oil must be washed out of the threads with a solvent. If there are two set screw locations and they tighten onto flats on the shaft, it's necessary to get the shaft position correct for the set screws to tighten squarely on these flats. Get them as tight as you can and then install a short set screw behind each one and tighten them to lock the first set screw in place. If the pulley doesn't fit tight on the shaft, there is no way to keep it from loosening back up, unless you can press shims in place between the pulley and the shaft to keep it from wobbling.and loosening the set screws shy of welding, and I don't recommend that.

My guess without seeing your saw is that the pulley does not fit properly on the shaft, so it wobbles a bit when running. Any movement like this is certain to loosen the set screws. A loose key will also cause the set screws to loosen. The set screws only keep the pulley from sliding on the shaft. The pulley and key have to fit near perfectly or you will forever have this problem. Excess vibration comes from pulleys that are not centered on the shaft (due to an over size center hole) or a belt that has become excessively stiff, so replacing the belt, possibly going with a segmented belt may help too.

Charley


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

60 and 80 teeth are too many teeth for ripping in a small saw. You should be using at most 32. The more teeth, the more power required.


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

Well............ I took the new heavier Leeson motor off and put the original lighter factory motor back on. Put the new pulleys on (could only get stamped -- have to order machined if this works), lined them up as best as I could like C Chuck suggested, and took a little tension off the belt. Crossed my fingers and tried it again. 

She hummed just like she should. Cut thru 1" pine, then a 1 1/2" piece of baltic birch counter top -- no problems. Don't have a clue how long it'll last or what was wrong after the initial pulley failure. Just wondering if the mount wasn't heavy enough to support the bulkier Leeson motor and twisted some.

Was heading out to buy a new hybrid table saw if this didn't work. Not going to spend the $$ on anything else til I give it a while to see if it holds. If it does - couple more dollars in the new CNC fund.


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## gmercer_48083 (Jul 18, 2012)

John, I have seen the weld fail where the mount is welded to the motor causing it to twist.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Like Gary I think you may have been getting some twist which was throwing it out of alignment and causing the pulleys top walk off the shaft. You might still be able to run that larger motor but you may need to support the outer end somehow.


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

I think the bigger heavier motor needs a bigger heavier mount. Only reason I got it was I thought it was the motor that was failing. Turned out to be not so. We'll see how going back to the original set up holds. At least I know it's not the trunnion, arbor, or bearings. Still pondering whether to order the cast iron pulleys and v-belt from In line and have them ready just in case.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Go with Browning if you go that way. Browning uses a collar which is similar to a collet and then the pulley goes over the bushing. When you tighten the pulley onto the bushing it seizes it to the shaft. They have two blank holes that you use to tighten them together and two threaded holes you use to separate them and if the pulley stays on the bushing for a while it can be tough to separate them even with the bolts forcing them apart. One of the added advantages of this system is that you can switch pulleys without switching the bushing if you wanted to change gear ratios. You'll wear the saw out before you wear those pulleys out.


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