# Trouble with router jointing



## Birchwood (May 13, 2005)

Okay fellas, heres the situation. I have a router table by Rockler, fence and all. I really like it. I tried today to "joint" some stuff using a solid carbide upcut spiral bit. Slipped an .040 shim behind the outfeed fence, moved the fence sides in tight around the bit etc. I cannot get an edge as good as I get off my Jet table saw!! I must be forgetting a step in the set-up.
The pieces I cut with the table saw fit together beautifully but the ones cut on the router table have some mild curves and dips. Whats the deal.
Signed
mystified in minnesota or
dumbfounded in duluth of
flummoxed in the forest


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## AxlMyk (Jun 13, 2006)

Are you putting the pressure on the outfeed end of the stock? It works the same as a standalone jointer.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

HI Birch

Try this pull the solid carbide upcut spiral bit out and replace it with a trim bit and use the bearing on the bit to set it up..
NOTE**** you can also use the 1/2" shank of the bit as well then drop the bit back down and run your stock by the bit.

The bit below works great for this job, it has two bearing on it to help set it up true with the fence..

Spiral Flush Trim Router Bit

part number #7399

http://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/smarthtml/pages/bt_solid.html

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Birch said:


> Okay fellas, heres the situation. I have a router table by Rockler, fence and all. I really like it. I tried today to "joint" some stuff using a solid carbide upcut spiral bit. Slipped an .040 shim behind the outfeed fence, moved the fence sides in tight around the bit etc. I cannot get an edge as good as I get off my Jet table saw!! I must be forgetting a step in the set-up.
> The pieces I cut with the table saw fit together beautifully but the ones cut on the router table have some mild curves and dips. Whats the deal.
> Signed
> mystified in minnesota or
> ...


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## Birchwood (May 13, 2005)

bobj3: I guess I'm not sure what you mean " set it up true with the fence." It might be we are talking the same thing in different ways. I like the LOOKS of that bit. Thank you.For the sort of wood butchering I do I can't justify a jointer, but believe me I'd sure love to have one.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Birch

True to the fence,,,, = put your 1/16" shim in the outfeed end of the fence then place your strait edge ( ruler ) on the infeed side of the fence ,move the fence to the spot where the ruler just rides on the bearing, once you have it set lock the fence in place then take your ruler and check it one more time the ruler should not turn the bearing, almost but not turn it..
Then you are set to use the router table for a edge planer. 

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Birch said:


> bobj3: I guess I'm not sure what you mean " set it up true with the fence." It might be we are talking the same thing in different ways. I like the LOOKS of that bit. Thank you.For the sort of wood butchering I do I can't justify a jointer, but believe me I'd sure love to have one.


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## Birchwood (May 13, 2005)

Aha! Thats right. See, I knew I knew what I knew all along. But at the time I needed to know what I knew I didn't know it.
Know what I mean?
Thanks again. A LOT of good information in this clubhouse.


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## Birchwood (May 13, 2005)

Hey AX/MYK......you are also right on. Forgot about THAT too. I have not been in my dungeon for several months. Appreciate your help.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

HI 

The sad part is I know what you mean LOL LOL same on this end sometimes you know what I mean.. 

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Birch said:


> Aha! Thats right. See, I knew I knew what I knew all along. But at the time I needed to know what I knew I didn't know it.
> Know what I mean?
> Thanks again. A LOT of good information in this clubhouse.


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## karateed (Feb 7, 2006)

The truly sad thing is that I know what you both mean if you know what I mean. I mean I meant not to be mean but there it is, the mean of it.....

Ed.......


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## AxlMyk (Jun 13, 2006)

I think I think I think youse guys are givin me a headache.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Mike I'm sure I know why you have a headache. Today I received an email entitled "lunchtime at ford Motor Co." It showed "workers" using a robot like a fairground roller coaster type of thing, a guy was sat at the end of the arm whilst it was gyrating in all directions!


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## cbsjoez1935 (Mar 14, 2007)

Bob,

I am really confused now. When you state that you put the ruler on the "infeed" side of the fence and have it just touch the bearing, to me that just defeated the jointer operation. I would think you adjust the "Outfeed" side of the fence to the bearing, since that would now be the new size of the wood after the joint is made. I would also have a pressure board holding the wood on the outfeed side to eliminate bumps. Did I misread something here?

Joe Z.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

HI Joe

Think of it this way, just like jointer,,,once the stock has been removed from the board it needs a way to support the board and the out feed side of the fence will do that job ....

You can use feather boards (jigs) to keep it to the fence but it's not needed the norm, it's only taking off 1/16" the norm in each pass by the bit.

http://www.routerworkshop.com/jointer101102.html


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cbsjoez1935 said:


> Bob,
> 
> I am really confused now. When you state that you put the ruler on the "infeed" side of the fence and have it just touch the bearing, to me that just defeated the jointer operation. I would think you adjust the "Outfeed" side of the fence to the bearing, since that would now be the new size of the wood after the joint is made. I would also have a pressure board holding the wood on the outfeed side to eliminate bumps. Did I misread something here?
> 
> Joe Z.


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## AxlMyk (Jun 13, 2006)

I believe the bit/bearing is set to the outfeed side also.


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## AlanZ (Aug 21, 2008)

Bob,

Your instructions confused me too. I've highlighted the (apparently) conflicting bits in the following snippets.

In this thread, you said:

"...place your strait edge ( ruler ) on the infeed side of the fence ,move the fence to the spot where the ruler just rides on the bearing..."


The Router Workshop instructions read:

"... Check the position by placing a straight piece of material even with the out feed side of the fence. If it is set up correctly there will be a gap between the material and the fence on the infeed side (closest to the operator). "

The straightedge on the outfeed makes sense to me. So am I missing something fundamental in your instructions, or was it a simply a typo?

Thanks


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Alan

All I can say it will works both ways but try it both ways.
For me I don't get any snipe on the end of the pass by using the infeed way to set it up.

You may ask why do I set it up this way, many router bits remove the edge from the stock like the bits below
Door Lip Bits and Door Edge Router Bits
Multi-Bead / Reed Router Bits
European Style Door Edge Router Bits
and it's very hard to set it up using the outfeed way...many of the bits don't have bearings on them..




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AlanZ said:


> Bob,
> 
> Your instructions confused me too. I've highlighted the (apparently) conflicting bits in the following snippets.
> 
> ...


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## Drew Eckhardt (Aug 2, 2008)

bobj3 said:


> Hi Alan
> 
> All I can say it will works both ways but try it both ways.
> For me I don't get any snipe on the end of the pass by using the infeed way to set it up.


When you offset the outfeed fence face with shims and don't have it at or behind the cutting edge or bearing, the stocking being jointed stops at the outfeed fence.

If the outfeed fence is behind the bearing/edge you have problems.

Where the out feed fence matches you get nice edge-jointed boards or sheet goods.


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## Birchwood (May 13, 2005)

Okay, let me see if I've got this. Place my machists square on the OUTfeed fence and bring the bit or the bearing against the straight edge of the square. The stock coming in hits the bit, the small amount I"ve set in shims is taken off and the outfeed fence will support the new edge.
Thats the way I'm understanding the process.


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## AlanZ (Aug 21, 2008)

Birch, that is my understanding too.


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## Duane867 (Oct 25, 2008)

This is the way I understood bob's explanation:

Set the fence square checking the in-feed for desired depth. ( making sure your fence is a true across IE each side of the fence has been moved the same distance. ) 
Shim up the out-feed using a straight edge so that the straight edge just passes by the bearing with out moving the bearing ( or at most just barely giving it a little 1/4 turn or so every once in a while. Maybe a full turn under pressure )


























When you push the straight edge across the bearing from the in-feed side of the fence 
It's supposed to glide right across the bearing and on to the out feed side of the fence resting on the fence immediately.










Little tip if some of you are as new to this as I am. 
Poster board is right about 1/64th of an inch thick and as I am finding out makes really cheap and really nice shims !  I will use either printer paper, or note cards for thinner shimming. (I'm a cheap SOB so I decided to make my own shims versus the $18 something shipped for 4 little pieces of plastic. Plus I wont have to wait if I tear one up, or lose one, OR I need more. One poster board costs like $0.75 and every one has printer paper on hand.)










Is my set up and comprehension of they way you wrote it out on the money or way off Bob ? 
I hope its right. Took me for friggn' ever to set up LOL !! ( NOOB HERE ! )
Would an easier and faster way be to just make a test cut on some scrap stock to the desired depth cutting the stock so that its a little passed an un-shimmed out feed ( IE true with the in-feed ) and then just using a feather board to hold the piece against the in feed fence and shim out the out feed to touch the piece?


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## Duane867 (Oct 25, 2008)

Hey ! I did set it up right 
At least this guys says I did any ways LOL !!

http://www.woodshopdemos.com/rtrplnr.htm


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## CanuckGal (Nov 26, 2008)

Guys I was searching for this very question and this post did help me with my answer, especially the bit advice, but I need some clarification on the set up.


> True to the fence,,,, = put your 1/16" shim in the outfeed end of the fence then place your strait edge ( ruler ) on the infeed side of the fence


Don't you set your straight edge flush with the bearing on the OUTfeed side of the fence? Despite thinking it was wrong I tried it the way it was explained here and that didn't work. Aligning to the outfeed fence worked perfectly. Am I doing something totally wrong?

OOPS! Sorry I did not see pages 2 and 3.


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## Woodnut65 (Oct 11, 2004)

Hi: for my two cents worth it's the same thing as setting up a jointer. The blades are set to the top of the arc of the cutter head, as measured from the OUTFEED table.
That is the same as setting the router bit with or without a bearing even with your outfeed side of the fence with the shim in place.If the fence is one piece the cut will be the thickness of the shim, once the stock is fed through. If you have a split fence
the INFEED side is adjusted for the thickness of the shim by sliding it away from the operetor. If you visualize a jointer turned onto its side it is the same as the router setup. Woodnut65


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## dovetail_65 (Jan 22, 2008)

I have an O.P. jointer fence. The O.P's are set for a 1/16" that's fine for some work, but:

If I wanted to modify this to a 1/32" off set what would be the simplest way? Seems like a one time shot if I put it through my jointer.

I wish O.P. just sold a jointer fence with different off sets. 1/32" is common for me, 1/16" for certain things could make my piece to small. 

I guess I can pull out my big CMT router table, I have retired it to the basement I am out of space and wanted to see if I could use the little OP for most of my tasks now.

The pieces I need jointed are way to small to use on a jointer safely without a ton of setup.


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## CanuckGal (Nov 26, 2008)

*Jointing Not Working*

Ok I practiced this a little more today and just made myself frustrated. I can not seem to get the edge to stay square to the other edges. If I make 3 passes I have a obvious angle by the time I'm finished. 
I had similar problems using an actual jointer. (One of the reasons I sold it, but I thought it was just the set up and the fact it was really old). 
I tried using a mitre guage but you almost need 3 hands. I have to be doing something wrong but what?


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## dovetail_65 (Jan 22, 2008)

The OP jointer fence works perfectly every time, is that what you are using?


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## CanuckGal (Nov 26, 2008)

No I am using the fence on my Wolfcraft table. I put a 1/16" thick shim on the outfeed fence. Then I line the outfeed fence up with the bearing on a 1/4" flush trim bit. That should work right? It must be something in my technique.
I can see another order to OP in my near future.


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## rwyoung (Aug 3, 2008)

It sounds like one or some combination of the following is happening:

1) Fence is not square to the table
2) Bit is not perpendicular to the table
3) Bit is not parallel to the fence
4) Work piece is moving away from the fence or rocking on its face

I built my own fence and table and the parallelism was accomplished by some careful measuring and then a little bit of shimming in two places with a playing card. Time consuming but worked well. 

The key is to have a known good 90 degree square to test with. Plastic drafting triangles are relatively cheap and can be found lots of places, university bookstores, Michaels (crafts), Hobby Lobby (crafts), Office Depot, etc. An alternative would be to use a machinist square. These are typically more accurate than the $4.99 try-squares from the home center. And more expensive. Rockler.com has nice ones in different sizes and the one I got was dead on over its length.

When making the top and cutting for the router plate I routed the rabbet just a little deep then used four screws run through the corners so that their heads could be run up and down a touch to level the plate. That worked quite well.

I've since gotten a new plate from Harbor Freight and it has leveler screws built in plus four little magnets to embed in the rabbet. A nifty system.

By the way, it is possible to test for parallel / square without having a known good square to rest against edges but it takes more work and a little bit of mental judo. It would be much easier just to get your hands on a 4" or 6" drafting triangle. Best would be a set with both a 45/90 and 30/60/90.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

HI 

May I insert a note 

1. The fence does not need to be square with table  it can be off by 20 deg. no big deal,just the way the router works.
2. This almost imposable 
3. The way the fence is made it should be (offset )
4. Maybe, but by holding the stock to the out feed side of the fence this should not be the case..
5. Once it's on the out feed side of the fence no presser is needed on the infeed side of the fence...that's to say hold the stock to the outfeed side ONLY and use push stick on the infeed side but keep it running true by the bit..

A easy way to get this type of job done is to use OP feather board fixtures,or just clamp a board to the router table top..once you are on the outfeed side of the fence, power down the router and clamp the board in place and let it take over the job of keeping it running true by the bit.

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rwyoung said:


> It sounds like one or some combination of the following is happening:
> 
> 1) Fence is not square to the table
> 2) Bit is not perpendicular to the table
> ...


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## CanuckGal (Nov 26, 2008)

I am thinking maybe I am not putting enough pressure on the outfeed, and too much on the infeed side. (I have been thinking about this all night). My table does have a set up for feather boards, I am going out there today to experiment a little more. I'll let you know if I master this thing or not. It's driving me crazy. 
BTW I made my first OP box joint box yesterday. Lets just say the spouse laughed so hard I think surgery may be necessary.  But I got the OP upspiral bits bits today, I was using a straight bit yesterday. I'll blame it on that.
Maybe today will be a better day.


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## rwyoung (Aug 3, 2008)

Playing fast and loose with terminology is probably causing some confusion here...

Square to the table as in perpendicular to the surface, not square to an edge. The bit, being round, the face of the fence is always tangential to the cutting portion of the bit.

The fence must be square to the table top if it is to fully support a work piece. If it is canted back (or forward) 20 degrees (or any amount), yes it will still support the work piece but on a smaller and smaller portion. Having a right angle between the fence and the table provides the maximum support for the workpiece and just as with a "real" jointer (electric or your good ole' #7) the fence and table act to help average out any irregularities in the piece as it moves past the cutter.

FYI, if you can angle the fence back or forth (some jointers can do this for tapering or angled jointing operations) that would be a pretty neat trick. But this comes at the cost of rigidity in the fence. A wooden router fence could quickly become a nightmare of rickety bits...  But now you have me thinking about how it could be made solid and repeatable (damn you, , now I'll never get anything else done for the rest of the day!).

It isn't impossible to have the cutter be perpendicular to the table. That is a function of the quality of the router bearings (i.e. no run-out), how the router base attaches to the router and thus to the plate, how well the plate sits in the table, etc. etc. Getting it all squared up isn't that tough. 0.005" or better is VERY doable. And 0.01" probably sufficient. If the bit were, for example, always canted back 1 degree relative to the table top, then the resulting jointing operation will result in a board edge that is 91 degrees to one face and 89 to the other. You can of course deal with this if you are gluing up panels by alternating faces on jointed boards. But you couldn't deal with it in say a cope-and-stick joining operation for panel frames.

Once again, if the table and fence are square (perpendicular) and the bit is perpendicular to the table then the bit is guaranteed to be parallel to the fence. This has nothing to do with having the outfeed side and infeed side in different planes. In fact, you WANT the outfeed and infeed side in slightly different planes. The router bit's exposed cutting edge is aligned with (usually) the outfeed side, proud of the infeed side. As per the discussion in other pages, it is possible to make it work the other way round too. Pick your poison. I know you went round and round with some posts on this earlier. 

Yes, the stock should be held to the outfeed side as soon as possible while feeding. But if it is bobbling (feather boards are your friend, you betcha') or worse still, the fence is flexing or moving, then all bets are off. Likewise, if at all possible, joint the side that bows IN so that you can guarantee at least two points of contact between the workpiece and the fence at all times. If you try to joint the side that is bowed out, it can be done but you will more likely just keep the bow in the board but end up with a edge...

Short answer, DON'T GIVE UP. It does work and you just need to check your basic setup and think about what is happening.



bobj3 said:


> HI
> 
> May I insert a note
> 
> ...


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

HI

I don't want to confusion anyone, see the drawing below 
the fence can be anywhere on the router table.. 

=======


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## rwyoung (Aug 3, 2008)

bobj3 said:


> HI
> 
> I don't want to confusion anyone, see the drawing below
> the fence can be anywhere on the router table..
> ...


Yes! As I tried to clarify, I was fast and loose with the word "square". Square to the surface of the table to mean perpendicular, not square to an edge of the table. 

And really, the more I think about what C.G. was describing, the more I wonder if it isn't the fence shifting or deforming as she presses the workpiece against it? She said it was a "Wolfcraft" fence. I'm not familiar with "Wolfcraft" except for some of their medium-to-low-end doweling jigs. They work but they are a bit fussy use...


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi
It's a hard to say what model she has but here's one or two of them..

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000HE8CWC
http://www.idealtruevalue.com/servlet/the-60402/Detail

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## CanuckGal (Nov 26, 2008)

Obviously I have the cheaper of the two fences above (the amazon link is mine).
Yes the fence is iffy. It's split for one and it's flimsy plastic and there is some movement on the leading edge of the outfeed side because it is not backed against anything when it it moved close to the bit. Add the shim in behind it on the part that is backed, and it just creates even more allowance for movement at the leading edge.  I actually discovered all this before reading your post during my morning experiments. I am scrapping that fence for jointing. I'll either get the OP jointing fence or make my own. 
Squaring wood in any way has always been my bane. Granted I have not always had the best tools, I am upgrading slowly. But I think some of it at least has to be operator error as I run into this issue on the table saw and band saw as well. I actally have better luck with a skill saw. I used to always joke that I could not (and still can't) draw a straight line or cut straight with scissors. It's not so funny anymore when I am seriously trying to make decent looking projects with wood that isn't so cheap. It seems to me that getting square edges is the fundamental part of woodworking and if I can't do that I am hopeless. But I'm not giving up yet. There has to be some good use for sawdust!


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

HI Dep

That's sound like the best way to go ( make your own fence) below you will see a very easy one to make,, it's just some MDF stock or some good and true plywood with a piece of laminate stuck to the outfeed side just pass the bit ( double sided carpet tape works great for that job) it will do the job for you... 

You can use the fence you now ,just screw the MDF to the fence but in one piece ,, then put in a hole for the bit to stick out of...

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## CanuckGal (Nov 26, 2008)

Great stuff Bob THANKS!. You guys are terrific!


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