# drilling phenolic router inserts



## dirkost (Jul 8, 2009)

Hi Ho: Well we live and learn. I have never drilled phenolic before and figured it would be something like plastic. Wrong!!! That stuff is hard and seems to be very brittle, to say nothing of hard on drill bits.

I am installing a router raizer which requires a 3/4 inch counterbore with a 1/2 in through hole in the insert. Well the counterbore went ok but was hard to do, even on the drill press at low speed. The through hole broke the phenolic instead of exiting cleanly.

My question is: When I get my new insert should I do the through-hole with a forstner bit as with the counter bore or a twist drill, or what? I wish I had carbide drill bits but I only have small ones that I used with printed circuit boards. Any other good ideas?

Thanks, Dirk


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

hi Dirk

forstner bits work well but put in a 1/8" 1st and then drill it from both sides with the forstner bit..it will come out clean..but don't hold back ,nice and easy with just a little presser ..don't push it, let the bit do the work 1st..


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dirko said:


> Hi Ho: Well we live and learn. I have never drilled phenolic before and figured it would be something like plastic. Wrong!!! That stuff is hard and seems to be very brittle, to say nothing of hard on drill bits.
> 
> I am installing a router raizer which requires a 3/4 inch counterbore with a 1/2 in through hole in the insert. Well the counterbore went ok but was hard to do, even on the drill press at low speed. The through hole broke the phenolic instead of exiting cleanly.
> 
> ...


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

Dirk,

Did you have the phenolic on top of a sacrificial surface, to support the phenolic as you broke through the top?


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## Mike Wingate (Apr 26, 2009)

Did you like the smell when drilling? Never smoke when you cut/drill/route phenol products.


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## xplorx4 (Dec 1, 2008)

I heard you shouldn't breath the vapors or smoke or whatever, someone says it isn't good for you--- well except in moderation!!


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## dirkost (Jul 8, 2009)

Hi Ho: Thanks, guys. The smell is something else. As usual about 3:00 am this morning I woke up and realized that a support block and drilling from both sides would be a good idea. I also went to the Grizzly catalog and found carbide tipped Forstner bits. I think that is the real solution as the HSS bits just don't like the hard phenolic.

The problem with not pushing hard enough is that the Forstner bit tends to polish the surface instead of cutting. When it does cut it works but doesn't like to cut that material. I think I will cut the counterbore then fill the hole with a plug and turn it over next time. And a wood support is probably a good idea even if the bit makes it through the 1-inch hole in the drill press table. Hey, what do you think about starting the hole with a Forstner bit and then changing to a carbide tipped router bit?

Thanks again, Dirk


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## Mike Wingate (Apr 26, 2009)

For a large through hole, why not use a hole saw. Or just make a jig and route the details. It routes really well. But smells.


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## Hamlin (Dec 25, 2005)

This may sound silly but, speed up the speed of your bit when drilling. Wear a respirator or dust mask. The odor or vapor is harmful. Otherwise, Bj did give you the best option to go. Drill both sides, let the bit do the work. Most definitely use a backer board of some kind.


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## RustyW (Dec 28, 2005)

I needed to drill a 3/4" hole in one of mine. I smoked a forstner bit, then a spade bit. Finally went to Home Depot, got a Bi-Metal holesaw and it went through quick and clean.


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## dirkost (Jul 8, 2009)

Hi Ho: Thanks for the suggestion. Nobody has commented on the idea of starting with a Forstner bit and drilling with a straight-cutting carbide tipped router bit. Maybe this will work?

Dirk


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## Old_Chipper (Mar 30, 2009)

Derk,
I make all my plates using my metal lathe. I know not everyone have a machine shop, but any job shop could do it while you wait for about $5.00. Big production shops won't even talk to you. Just a another way to go!
Harry


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

http://www.routerforums.com/project-plans-how/10818-bogydave.html

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## dirkost (Jul 8, 2009)

Hi Ho: Harry, do you mount the router plate on the lathe with the desired holes centered in the spindle or do you use an end mill?

Dirk


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## dirkost (Jul 8, 2009)

Hi Ho: Bob, the exercise here is to drill for brass guides that don't fit the router table plate. Mine fit just fine. In fact, centering the router is just a matter of mounting the guide with a 1/4 inch hole and putting a 1/4 bit in the router. That part is easy. Machining the plastic inserts would also be easy. Drilling phenolic is not easy. What do you thing of using straight router bits to do the majority of the cutting?

Dirk


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## Old_Chipper (Mar 30, 2009)

Dirk I'm old school, I use a boring bar with a carbide insert, cuts it like butter! I use cutting oil, it cuts the smell some.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

HI Dirk

That's the point,,if you start with the right router plate you don't need to do much at all 

- Harbor Freight Tools - Quality Tools at the Lowest Prices

You want a router plate that will take on *all* router bits,from 1/8" to 4" max. with just a snap in insert ring..
The bigger guides make the job essayer when you want to use one that 1 1/4" diam that many are... but it's a snap to use the 2 1/4" OD bit with the snap in rings.

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dirko said:


> Hi Ho: Bob, the exercise here is to drill for brass guides that don't fit the router table plate. Mine fit just fine. In fact, centering the router is just a matter of mounting the guide with a 1/4 inch hole and putting a 1/4 bit in the router. That part is easy. Machining the plastic inserts would also be easy. Drilling phenolic is not easy. What do you thing of using straight router bits to do the majority of the cutting?
> 
> Dirk


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## dirkost (Jul 8, 2009)

Hi Ho Bob: Interestingly enough, that is the router plate that I'm using. Well, I started with the same plate from another source, but the replacement comes from HF. The problem is that I have mounted a router raizer and need to drill a 1/2 inch through hole with a 3/4 counterbore on the backside for the router raizer. Of course, I'll also have to drill and countersink for the mounting screws, but they are smaller and should be less a problem.

Can I use a straight carbide tipped router bit for drilling holes in phenolic? If yes, I can just start the hole with a forstner bit and then do the bulk of the drilling with the router bit. I have found that cutting phenolic with forstner bits works, but requires that the shaving is small. It is really hard on bits. How fast should I turn the router bit if this approach is advisable?

Dirk


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Dirk, you are making way too much work out of this project. The best thing you can do is buy a quality set of american made drill bits in HSS. I bought Huot brand, but there are others of equal quality. These bits will make the needed holes easily. Start with a small pilot hole. Increase the bit sizes in several steps for practice. Use a steady pressure and stopping before cutting through is the secret. Finish the hole from the other side. If you are not using a drill press and have difficulty holding the drill in line use a guide.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Dirk

Most routers spin to fast,8,000 rpm. on the low setting, the norm for the standard router bit..
But they do make router bits just for phenolic..

But they are bit high in price..
Diamond-cut Routers

Tapered carving tools for CarveWright & CompuCarve Machines

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dirko said:


> Hi Ho Bob: Interestingly enough, that is the router plate that I'm using. Well, I started with the same plate from another source, but the replacement comes from HF. The problem is that I have mounted a router raizer and need to drill a 1/2 inch through hole with a 3/4 counterbore on the backside for the router raizer. Of course, I'll also have to drill and countersink for the mounting screws, but they are smaller and should be less a problem.
> 
> Can I use a straight carbide tipped router bit for drilling holes in phenolic? If yes, I can just start the hole with a forstner bit and then do the bulk of the drilling with the router bit. I have found that cutting phenolic with forstner bits works, but requires that the shaving is small. It is really hard on bits. How fast should I turn the router bit if this approach is advisable?
> 
> Dirk


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## bob156235 (Jun 14, 2009)

I'm puzzled. I cannot think of a single, solitary task that would benefit from brass guides in a table!

I recognize the (limited) value during hand-held ops, although I prefer bearing bits for pattern work, but why in a table? What is the benefit? What specific task or job would be BEST performed with the brass guides in the table verses other, controlled ops and methods?

I've got nothing against installing them there, I just want to know what I can gain by doing so.

thx,
Bob


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Bob

Here's just one of many,many, once you start using the brass guides in the router table a whole new world will open up for you , the guide is just a bearing so to speak that you can use with router bits that don't have a bearing and some with them..

Once you remove the fence from your router table and set it to one side you have all the room you need for just about any project...plus the guide will let you come from any angle on the table....

I know Harry and TT will say this is a unsafe way of doing the job, but Bob and Rick R. have been doing it this way for a very long time and what works for them works for me 
I see they both have all their fingers and no band aids ... that's big tip off for me....







check out the the link below *Router Tip Archive* you will see many ways to use them.

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bob156235 said:


> I'm puzzled. I cannot think of a single, solitary task that would benefit from brass guides in a table!
> 
> I recognize the (limited) value during hand-held ops, although I prefer bearing bits for pattern work, but why in a table? What is the benefit? What specific task or job would be BEST performed with the brass guides in the table verses other, controlled ops and methods?
> 
> ...


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## dirkost (Jul 8, 2009)

Hi Ho: Well, the brass guides work great for getting the router plate centered when mounting it. Anyway, sorry about the confusion. I was not suggesting using a router to drill the hole, just a router bit in the drill press.

Does this make any sense? What speed?

Dirk


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## bob156235 (Jun 14, 2009)

Some nice pics bobj3 (my first and middle name is Robert James. Is this the 'j' in "bobj3"? - and the 3... is that for the third generation? Just an unrelated thought!).

Anywaze... the fence off the table thing - good (and common) practice. I posted something similar about freehand cutting on a TS and you'd think the roof caved in! People took it WAY out of proportion. I tend to feel the same way about brass guides in the router table. Sure, it's an "option" and maybe one that brings value (i.e., less time, fewer steps, less material, etc., without sacrifice to safety and quality), but I haven't seen it. Brass guides in the table (or even in the routers' base plate for that matter) just shift (registration) control from the bit bearing to the table. To me, installing the brass fittings into the table is an additional step that provides no ADDITINAL beneifts, and was the point of my original post. Why use bearings in the table? 

Your examples, although great pics, jigs, ingenuity, and so forth, accomplishes what you set out to do for sure, but all of that could be performed - with the same degree of control, repeatability, yadda, yadda, yadda, and IN FEWER STEPS (without brass insert set-up time and tear-down time for the next job that doesn't use them) by a bearing on the bit for one application, and a sled against the fence for the other.

I'm out for using the latest and the greatest or anything - just ask my wife - but only when it provides value in time or material savings, enhances safety, increases quality and the like. What you showed me offers none of these, only adds steps to what can already be done using other methods. 

FYI: Am not sold one way or the other Bobj, but again, what do I stand to gain by using brass guides in my router table?

thx for speedy reply you posted,
Bob


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

HI Dirk

" What speed?" 540 to 760 on the drill press

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dirko said:


> Hi Ho: Well, the brass guides work great for getting the router plate centered when mounting it. Anyway, sorry about the confusion. I was not suggesting using a router to drill the hole, just a router bit in the drill press.
> 
> Does this make any sense? What speed?
> 
> Dirk


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi 

" ADDITINAL benefits " you can choke the hole down with the guides as well to make it safer to use the small bits 

1-3/4" Router Plate Inserts - Lee Valley Tools

1-3/16" Router Plate Inserts - Lee Valley Tools

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bob156235 said:


> Some nice pics bobj3 (my first and middle name is Robert James. Is this the 'j' in "bobj3"? - and the 3... is that for the third generation? Just an unrelated thought!).
> 
> Anywaze... the fence off the table thing - good (and common) practice. I posted something similar about freehand cutting on a TS and you'd think the roof caved in! People took it WAY out of proportion. I tend to feel the same way about brass guides in the router table. Sure, it's an "option" and maybe one that brings value (i.e., less time, fewer steps, less material, etc., without sacrifice to safety and quality), but I haven't seen it. Brass guides in the table (or even in the routers' base plate for that matter) just shift (registration) control from the bit bearing to the table. To me, installing the brass fittings into the table is an additional step that provides no ADDITINAL beneifts, and was the point of my original post. Why use bearings in the table?
> 
> ...


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

I'm new to routing so I'll not attempt to give all of the advantages but I can give one that's helped me.

When I received my router lift it came with a "free" router hole template, sized for the outside perimeter of the plate. By using a 1/2" bit in a 1-1/2" guide for the through-cut and then following up with a flush-cut shallow bearing-guided bit to cut the depth to match the plate thickness, I ended up with the 1/2" lip I desired. As a result the through-hole was very clean with its corner "properly" radiused and the plate rests on the lip without needing the depth / leveling screws provided with the plate. If I'd wanted a different offset (lip) I could have used a different bit / guide combination.

Did I need it? No, I could have cut it with a chainsaw and it would have functioned but instead I ended up with a nicely finished piece, avoiding stress concentration points. To me these are benefits. This is before considering any intangibles such as pride in craftsmanship.


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Ok, Bob... guide bushings have a whole section devoted to them where you will find all the answers you need, and that is the place for your question. This thread is about drilling holes in phenolic; lets stick with the topic people.


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