# Fort Ladder / Merging Threads



## RickKr (Dec 30, 2018)

Pulling together some other threads on the building of this ladder for my granddaughter's elevated fort. 

Circular Saw Plunge Cuts

Circle/Radius Cutting Jig

With the handholds done, I've turned my attention to the ladder rungs. I had planned on making the rungs fro 2x6 lumber with blocks of 2x4 under each end as support. Then I decided that would make the rungs unnecessarily wide and I switched to 2x4 lumber for the rungs. Ended up not liking that width, so have settled on ripping down the 2x6 lumber and trimming the back edge at the same angle as the ladder. And using a router made recess pocket of the rungs on each side. Even though I used scrap stock to test the jigs for making the pockets in the stringers, I had to fill the first one in the first stringer, due to the change in the rung width. 

I used a 1/4" round over bit on the 90º corners of the rungs, to match the pocket corner radii. That was nice as it made all of the corners exactly the same. Progress has been slow, mostly because there has been a lot of snow to shovel and blow at my daughter's. More to go, but there is light at the end, snow is supposed to slow up a bit in the next week, so maybe I'll get a little more shop time. 

Rick


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

RickKr said:


> Pulling together some other threads on the building of this ladder for my granddaughter's elevated fort.
> 
> Circular Saw Plunge Cuts
> 
> ...



You're going to need some bracing to keep it from racking...

What is your plan for keeping the stringers from spreading...?

Just looking at the angle and the hand-holds, you might check that the hand-holds are not too far out for comfortable climbing...it almost looks like a child going up might be leaning too far back to hold the stringers...just wondering...

Lookin' good...


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

To prevent spreading, you could drill holes through side, just below the step. Top, Middle and bottom. Use threaded rods with bolts on each side tightened to keep it together. Some diagonal bracing would keep it from racking. That bracing can be pretty light weight material, even aluminum bar 1/8th thick will do, and its thin enough so it can cross in the center, with a small nut and bolt through that point. That brace will prevent racking. Or you could simply put a sheet of quarter inch ply on the back. Or even small sections of ply screwed into the back of the ladder. 

Not going to get a lot of stress on that ladder, but with any ladder, you want it overbuilt.

Your project is looking very good so far. Hope the snow lets up so you can get it done.


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## RickKr (Dec 30, 2018)

Nickp said:


> You're going to need some bracing to keep it from racking...
> 
> What is your plan for keeping the stringers from spreading...?
> 
> ...


I had not considered racking. It will be mounted permanently at the top with two 1/4" lag bolts on each side, about 18" apart. I don't see much opportunity for it to rack. I could add a cross brace, if it becomes a problem.

I was assuming the screwing and gluing the rungs every 12" would keep the stringers from spreading. Three pocket hole screws from the underside on each end of the rungs plus gluing them in place. I decided on the pocket hole screws so the screws would not be going into end grain as they would if screwed through the stringers into the rungs. I could add a couple of those too, which I considered, but dismissed as being overkill and unnecessary.

You may have a point about the handholds causing a child to be too upright. I will not be surprised if the kids ignore the handholds and just grab the rungs when climbing. If it looks awkward, I'll encourage her to use the rungs. If so, the handholds will just become decorative :smile: I put the same 1/4" radius roundover on the rear/top corner in anticipation that the rungs would be used instead of the handholds. 

Rick


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

RickKr said:


> I had not considered racking. It will be mounted permanently at the top with two 1/4" lag bolts on each side, about 18" apart. I don't see much opportunity for it to rack. I could add a cross brace, if it becomes a problem.
> 
> Rick


ornate gussets under the treads..
solves racking and spreading in one shot...


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## RickKr (Dec 30, 2018)

Stick486 said:


> ornate gussets under the treads..
> solves racking and spreading in one shot...


I like the look of the wooden gussets much better than the blocks I originally was thinking of. I might actually do something like these. I've got extra boards of the rung stock, which would be perfect and consistent with the rest of it. 

Thanks.

Rick


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

RickKr said:


> I like the look of the wooden gussets much better than the blocks I originally was thinking of. I might actually do something like these. I've got extra boards of the rung stock, which would be perfect and consistent with the rest of it.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Rick


ascetically clip the points and they will look like they'll belong...


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## RickKr (Dec 30, 2018)

Stick486 said:


> ascetically clip the points and they will look like they'll belong...


Not entirely sure what you mean by clipping the points. Do you mean radius them, sort of like a round over? Use the same radius as the handhold and edge round overs? 

Rick


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## RickKr (Dec 30, 2018)

*Rung Pockets Done*

Results of tonight's work, finished the other 15 pockets. I had to flip the fence on the pocket routing jig for the opposite stringer, to have mirror images. 

As I was working on the second stringer, the bit seemed to be dulling, requiring more pressure to move it through the wood and having tear out on the exit, which I really hated as it is the upper side where little hands might scrape. It wasn't until I got finished and inside and saw the photos I took. One, showing how the new dust hood completely encloses the open side of the router base, revealed what I think was the cause. The speed setting had gotten turned down to "5", visible in the photo I was going to post about how much I liked the new dust hood. Both symptoms make sense now and the bit is probably not nearly as dull as I was thinking. 

Hardly any dust/chips escaped, except at the start when the opening in the base overhung the fence, allowing a little bit to escape. I had noticed yesterday that chips were flying out of the 3/8" edge guide rod mounting holes. I plugged them with 3/8" dowel. 

I was thinking it was ready for screws and glue, but now I want to think about making gussets. 

Rick


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

> the bit is probably not nearly as dull as I was thinking.


clean dress the bit anyways....

and this is what I mean by clipping...

....


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Stick was talking about nipping the the sharp tips off the gusset. The gusset is an isosceles triangle with leg, leg, and a hypotenuse. He meant nip the tips off perpendicular to the legs.

I don't think I would trust the pocket screws to keep the sides from spreading. I don't trust pocket screws for much but I know lots do. I also don't see much opportunity for racking. The top will be firmly attached to a non moving structure and the bottom will be on the ground. There will be some flexing though and that's why I don't trust the screws. In a traditional wooden step ladder you only have 3/4" thick steps but they are supported by steel rods which help support the load but also keep the sides from spreading. The angle brackets Stick suggested would do that too but I would use machine screws and locking nuts to attach them so that they couldn't loosen over time. I don't know if you really need the gussets and they might get in the way when climbing. I would expect the ladder to flex a bit and some structures need to be able to flex. Too rigid and they'll self destruct over time. An airplane is a good example of that.


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## RickKr (Dec 30, 2018)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> Stick was talking about nipping the the sharp tips off the gusset. The gusset is an isosceles triangle with leg, leg, and a hypotenuse. He meant nip the tips off perpendicular to the legs.


I believe I am thinking the same, but here is a drawing of what I am thinking of, with radiuses, 1/2" and 1". I am inclined to the 1" radius. The 1/2" seems to get lost. 











Cherryville Chuck said:


> I don't think I would trust the pocket screws to keep the sides from spreading. I don't trust pocket screws for much but I know lots do.


I know many do not like and/or do not trust pocket screws. I figured they are better than similar sized screws going through the stringers into the rung end grain, plus I was going to glue them. I realize that could make it too rigid, to your last point. I just don't see this ladder getting stressed that much, similar to your comment about not much racking. As you say, some need to flex, but I don't see this flexing that much (until "I" get on it :surprise. 



Cherryville Chuck said:


> I also don't see much opportunity for racking. The top will be firmly attached to a non moving structure and the bottom will be on the ground. There will be some flexing though and that's why I don't trust the screws. In a traditional wooden step ladder you only have 3/4" thick steps but they are supported by steel rods which help support the load but also keep the sides from spreading. The angle brackets Stick suggested would do that too but I would use machine screws and locking nuts to attach them so that they couldn't loosen over time. I don't know if you really need the gussets and they might get in the way when climbing. I would expect the ladder to flex a bit and some structures need to be able to flex. Too rigid and they'll self destruct over time. An airplane is a good example of that.


I do not think the gussets will interfere with climbing, based on the drawing above. 

I will think on the matter of using machine screws, etc. I have a little time before needing to make that call. 

Rick


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

clip instead of radius...
the sharp turn will make a water let (drip point)...
as where water will follow the radius...
radius the long outside edges of the gussets...

thru screw the steps/rungs/gussets w/ RSS/GRK screws from the outside of ladder stringers...
https://www.grkfasteners.com/products/rss-rugged-structural-screw
or headlok structural screws by timberlok...
https://www.fastenmaster.com/product-details/headlok-heavy-duty-flathead-fastener.html
use construction adhesive like PL Premium instead og glue... you won't regret it...
https://www.loctiteproducts.com/en/..._premiumpolyurethaneconstructionadhesive.html

you get your flex...
you get serious strength..
you get water proof end grain..


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

The important thing is that you have plenty of options to consider...and that the kids will have a grand time with the fort...


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## Bstrom (Jan 2, 2020)

Nickp said:


> The important thing is that you have plenty of options to consider...and that the kids will have a grand time with the fort...


This is a cool idea but borrowing from my industrial climbing experience, personnel (children too!) safety calls for a cage around this thing to prevent or minimize falls. I know that complicates the whole idea but it's an OSHA things nowadays.

Of course, they could always wear safety harnesses and fasten to a heavy rope coming down from above - now that's where the fun would begin!


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

If this goes up more than 10 ft, I think a cage is in order. Falls from that height WILL break bones or cause other injury depending on how they land. Start the cage at 5 or 6 feet, and wide enough so an adult can get through comfortably. A cage will spoil the ship's ladder look unless you make it with a very open look. I bet many kids will see it as kind of a tunnel and enjoy climbing through it.

Another possibility would be to put some soft landing under the ladder. I lived next to a park once and they laid a layer of rubber particles, kind of like pea gravel, under the play areas to soften the landing if a kid fell. You could probably use wood chips for this, but there will be splinters, and it will deteriorate over time. If you use rubber particles, the base for the ladder still needs to be set on something pretty solid, perhaps a short chunk of 2x6 or 8 of synthetic decking that won't rot.

The landing pad, if you do that, would be 4-6 inches thick and wide enough to assure a falling child would land on it. Here's a link for playground safety mats. https://www.greatmats.com/playgroun...playgrounds&utm_content=Rubber Playground Mat

That ladder is too pretty for a cage unless it's tall enough to cause more serious injuries if a child falls. So I'd go with the padding. If this is where many children will find and climb it, you will have created an attractive nuisance and could have some liability issues. If it's in an enclosed back yard, the homeowner insurance MIGHT cover injuries. Damn Lawyers pop up everywhere, don't they, like weeds. Sorry to bring this up, but I remember when the playgrounds were upgraded from dirt, the city had put them in to cover their financial behinds. 

Putting my little guy hat on, if I had a ladder like this, I'd HAVE to climb it.


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## RickKr (Dec 30, 2018)

*Jig for Keeping Rungs Square*

I really appreciate the discussion and idea for fastening and gluing the rungs for this ladder. Thank you all. I will go with the construction wood screws and construction adhesive. I know I've seen screws like that at the local hardware stores but I have not looked at what sorts of construction adhesives they carry. I know the brands of screws Stick posted are NOT available locally, but one brand is at one store 50 miles away. Because of the rigid mount, I may not go with gussets.

So, moving on ... 

I am thinking ahead on how to hold the rungs square as they are fastened/glued to the first stringer. I am thinking all the rungs must be secured to one stringer first and then the other stringer added in a second stage. It is possible the rungs would mount fairly square without any jigging (is that a word? - sounds like a fishing action) because the pockets have been routed square bottomed and the ends of the rungs have been cut very square. But, I do not want to rely on that, solely. I would like to come up with a jig, large squares that can be clamped to the stringer and rung while it is being glued and screwed in place. I have a couple of the large construction squares and they clamp up okay with the stringer flat and the rungs sticking upward. 









However, that is not a position in which I want to be gluing and screwing, from below. I am not confident that those squares will stay in place if the clamped up rungs/squares were laid over flat, so I think some blocks or something need to be attached to the squares for more secure clamping. I am okay with drilling holes in at least one of the squares for attaching blocks. Alternatively, it could work to clamp blocks to the stingers/rungs and then clamp the squares to those blocks, eliminating the need to drill and bolt blocks to the squares. But... that is a couple extra steps that may not work well with glue setting up. 

Thinking further, glue and screw the two first rungs while laid flat, without clamping square. Then tilt it up so the rungs are upright and then clamp them square (as pictured) and let the glue set up. That could be done quickly and well within the glue working time (if not, I need to find a different glue as the final glue up of the second stringer is going to take much longer).









Follow that same procedure for adding the other rungs and use a lath to tack the others square, using the clamped square to align each rung, prior to tacking. 









I am also starting to think about the entire gluing/screwing operation/sequence of once the rungs are all in place on the first stringer, how do I go about adding the second stringer and gluing/screwing all nine rungs? Will the working time of the adhesive allow for applying glue to all the pockets/joints, press the stringer on and then drive the screws? I am thinking that at this point the assembled first stringer and rungs can be laid flat on a bench or horses so the screwing of the second stringer could be done horizontally. I anticipate that holes for all the screws will have been pre-drilled in the stingers and the screws in place ready for driving into the rungs. 

... OPEN THE FOOD GATES !!!

Rick


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## RickKr (Dec 30, 2018)

I found the Loctite adhesive in two forms. Stick’s one is 3X strength, second one says 8x but says “fast grab” but neither says what the working time is. Anyone know anymore amp out these?

Rick


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

SEE PAGE 2....
You don't want fast grab...
and all you need to know is in the link I gave you...
open time is 15~20 minuets..
reposition time is 30~45 minuets...

.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

> I am also starting to think about the entire gluing/screwing operation/sequence of once the rungs are all in place on the first stringer, how do I go about adding the second stringer and gluing/screwing all nine rungs?


put one tread and two stringers together. glued and screwed....
insert a spreader between the stringers to open the gap a touch.. it doesn't need to be much...
apply the adhesive to the dado...
slide the next tread into place...
remove the spreader...
install the screws...
repeat till yur done...


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

To make sure the rungs are parallel and square, I think you must use a square to make sure the bottom of both rails of the ladder are exactly even. Given the care you've taken to get the steps parallel on each side, that should give you a nice, square result. 

Long working time, slow setting time on the glue!!!!! You don't want to be rushed unnecessarily during glue up. Trial fit everything first without glue to spot anything that will give you problems once glue is applied.

Stick showed a picture of some steel, right angle braces that are maybe 2 inches long on each side. These will be out of the way and all but invisible, or, you can paint the hardware black so they become a feature instead of just hiding them. As stick said, this will be VERY strong and will also prevent wracking. If you use these, make sure you use sizable sood screws that fit tight in the holes in the hardware. I'd use star drive type heads so you're less likely to scar the wood if you slip, which is more likely with phillips head screws. You could also use hex head screws which would all but eliminate damage from driver slips. 

I would spray paint the angled hardware and screw/bolt heads before assembly and touch them up if needed. 

I mentioned the height issue if someone falls. There is a formula that states a 1 story fall, landing on your feet will cause some shock and minor injuries--more serious if the child doesn't land on their feet. From two stories, a fall will often cause severe joint damage, or if the landing is not on your feet, you riks breaking bones, or hitting your head or other vital spots on objects below--a bike or tricycle for example. From 3 stories, something is going to break, period. Four stories often is fatal and five is nearly always fatal. If a child parks their tricycle near the bottom of the ladder, a slip or fall could easily change that child's life forever, if they fall onto the bike. Same applies to any restraining structures that could be in the path of the fall.

Another safety feature, to me, would be some friction type tape on the rungs of the ladder. It's pretty cheap and HD has it. It looks nice too. Certainly a painted or slick finish material will increase the chance some over excited kid misses a step, slips, and falls. If that happens, even with only minor injuries, mom will have you over immediately to remove it.

Don't mean to harp on this safety thing, but as with all things, the devil is in the details. You have pre planned really well on the construction and really, that is a beautiful project and the kids will surely love it. As a kid, you couldn't have kept me off it. 

Love this picture, and it's similar to what you're building, but imagine a couple of bikes below and kids running around, making a ruckus that distracts the climber.


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## RickKr (Dec 30, 2018)

Stick486 said:


> SEE PAGE 2....
> You don't want fast grab...
> and all you need to know is in the link I gave you...
> open time is 15~20 minuets..
> ...


Thanks, Stick. I was working from my phone at the time and didn't look up the link you sent. I had gone to it when at home on my computer, but did not see a link to the data you attached to your other reply. So, thanks. 

Rick


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## RickKr (Dec 30, 2018)

Stick486 said:


> clean dress the bit anyways....
> 
> and this is what I mean by clipping...
> 
> ....


Yes, I get it now. I'll do it like that. I like the round over aspect also. Thanks. 

Rick


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

RickKr said:


> Thanks, Stick. I was working from my phone at the time and didn't look up the link you sent. I had gone to it when at home on my computer, but did not see a link to the data you attached to your other reply. So, thanks.
> 
> Rick


that PDF is from the link...
it was way down the page ...
there's others...
ya gotta scroll...


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

the more I look at your ladder/stairs pics... Q's arise...

what will you do for a non-skid tread surface???
how will you stop the kids from running down them face first...
face first mode will the upper tread outer edge rub against the kids calf or force the foot forward/out so that only part of the heel catches the next rung down...
this is when/where falls and broken bones/ankles happen...


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## RickKr (Dec 30, 2018)

*Trial Fit*

Well, the ladder pieces do fit together, but not without some persuasion (no surprise).

Some of the issues I found (again, none are any surprise really):

1) I made the pockets too tight,
2) Some of the rung boards have warped,
3) Both of the stringers are warped (not badly, but enough to present minor challenges), 
4) Assembly will be some work but will be a real pain unless I relieve some of the binding,
5) Assembly will take some careful planning and probably a couple trial fits to run through the process.

But, considering the above, it went together a lot easier than it might have. I did not attempt to get anything square, just wanted to see how things fit. The rungs are out of square by about 3/8".

It is a heavy beast, but I knew that would be the case. 

I am fairly stoked. 

Rick


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## RickKr (Dec 30, 2018)

*Safety Issues*

I appreciate the questions and expressions of concern about safety. I cannot eliminate many of these issues and probably can only deal with a few. I can find some good non-skid tread material and put that on. Some attempts at educating the kid(s) will be made, but we all know when they get excited, they forget all that. I can find a good supply of wood chips and lay a deep bed around the base, recessed to be level with the ground surface. 

On one level, I am not concerned, when I think about what is there now - that her mother put up. Two halves of an above ground pool ladder, tied to two 2x2s and tied at the top. I saw that and decide immediately that I had to build something safer. For sure, I needed something that I could climb, let alone make it safe for the kids from a sturdiness perspective. 

I don't know what can be done about some of the concerns expressed. There will not be a cage that goes on it. If you notice in the photo, there is fresh lumber making a railing around a protruding part of the floor. That was a launch platform for a rope swing that the previous occupants/owners had for their kid and her friends. I put up the railing up and I think the rope swing will not be re-activated. The orchard ladder is there for installation of the railing and will go away. 

Rick


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

the easiest way to ''fix'' the tight dado is to shallow rabbet (cross grain) the tread... best to put it on the bottom of the tread...
you want a nice easy fit but not snug to let the adhesive do it's thing...


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

At the top of the ladder you could put something like the little platform next to the pool ladder. That would form a cage, and you could put a simple trap door (if you want to get fancy) So the kids are climbing through, so the cage is part of the fun? I think you will also need some kind of handle up top for the kids to grab to pull them forward as they get off the ladder at the top. That will prevent falling backward. And you can make the cage large enough for an adult to get up there. I also think a cage with an opening will discourage the kids from going down facing forward.

The assembled ladder in the picture clearly is a ladder, not a staircase. It will sit at a pretty vertical angle. If a child tries to walk down, they will have a problem holding onto the rail, which will likely discourage stair stepping. 

I do like the idea of the wood chips, but again, that will hold moisture so I'd definitely lay down a sizable chunk of synthetic decking for the ladder to sit on. 

Only thing now is that I want something like this in my backyard. A small space where I can take my laptop and look out over the yard during summer. Might even run a little power and put in windows and insulation for a AC. Only need one circuit for that. None of my trees are big enough to support a treehouse, so if I do it, I'l use four 6x6s set deep in concrete. But then, my wife will demand a small art studio out there. Life gets complicated, doesn't it.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

What stick suggested about rabbeting the step slightly is right on as usual. If you have a block plane or shoulder plane, that will make short work of it--likely just a couple of strokes. Or you could do it with fairly coarse sandpaper glued to a piece of wood would do but won't take off very much at a time. .


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

DesertRatTom said:


> What stick suggested about rabbeting the step slightly is right on as usual. If you have a block plane or shoulder plane, that will make short work of it--likely just a couple of strokes. Or you could do it with fairly coarse sandpaper glued to a piece of wood would do but won't take off very much at a time. .


the TS is the best most accurate way to go...


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## RickKr (Dec 30, 2018)

Stick486 said:


> ...snip...
> you get your flex...
> you get serious strength..
> you get water proof end grain..





Stick486 said:


> the easiest way to ''fix'' the tight dado is to shallow rabbet (cross grain) the tread... best to put it on the bottom of the tread...
> you want a nice easy fit but not snug to let the adhesive do it's thing...


I was trying to leave a little room for the glue, but not too much. Clearly it has not worked out that good. 

In getting "your flex", is that provided by the adhesive? Does the adhesive need to be in any gap made with the easing of the snug fit, to some thickness, so that the joint can move? 

More importantly at this point, how much "fix"ing is needed, in terms of width of gap, per side, assuming straight boards? 

Rick


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## RickKr (Dec 30, 2018)

DesertRatTom said:


> What stick suggested about rabbeting the step slightly is right on as usual. If you have a block plane or shoulder plane, that will make short work of it--likely just a couple of strokes. Or you could do it with fairly coarse sandpaper glued to a piece of wood would do but won't take off very much at a time. .





Stick486 said:


> the TS is the best most accurate way to go...


I would do it either by TS or router table.

That raises the question I asked in another reply on this matter, essentially, how much rabbet? Assuming no gap now, at least in places.

Rick


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

RickKr said:


> I was trying to leave a little room for the glue, but not too much. Clearly it has not worked out that good.
> 
> In getting "your flex", is that provided by the adhesive? Does the adhesive need to be in any gap made with the easing of the snug fit, to some thickness, so that the joint can move?
> 
> ...


the adhesive doesn't cure rigid...

the thickness of a playing card for a gap all the way around is just about right for easing...
the adhesive will ''grow'' all on it's own so don't leave anything unclamped or mechanically unfastened or the adhesive will push the joint apart...... 
it can/will also bridge 3/8 of an inch and still have strength... the cure time can be as much as 24 hours......
immediately clean up any squeeze out while it's still wet w/ turps or the like... 

about that changing shape you came across... it won't stop...
wood moves.. get over it...
but you can get it to behave the way want w/ a better selection process... see the picture...
if a cup (concave) forms in the top face of a tread it will collect water and then you have a whole new set of unwanted issues to deal w/.. 

remember... a little goes a long ways... squeeze out is telling you yur using too much but a little of it is inevitable...

.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

RickKr said:


> I would do it either by TS or router table.
> 
> That raises the question I asked in another reply on this matter, essentially, how much rabbet? Assuming no gap now, at least in places.
> 
> Rick


just enough to give you the discussed clearances...


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## RickKr (Dec 30, 2018)

Stick486 said:


> the adhesive doesn't cure rigid...
> 
> the thickness of a playing card for a gap all the way around is just about right for easing...
> the adhesive will ''grow'' all on it's own so don't leave anything unclamped or mechanically unfastened or the adhesive will push the joint apart......
> ...


Thanks. That is helpful, about the glue, gaps, growth, etc. 

Regarding the "changing shape" and "get over it"... I am over it and I am very aware of types of lumber cuts and associated shrinkages. I try to select lumber with it all in mind, but it is difficult to find construction grade lumber, which I believe is appropriate for my ladder project, that has any consistent grain. I consistently inspect the lumber I buy for the best available, but most of it is crap. 

I've high graded some by selecting much larger boards when I see some quarter sawn sections and rip them down and use just the good stuff. I did this with construction grade pine for a loom project a year ago. I've done this with 2x12s to get QS 2x4s and 6s, as those larger boards often are take out of the middle of a log that is not much larger than the "12", which includes QS sections of the outer edges. 

I was not able to do that with the 2x10s for this project. Even though I selected the best of what was available in 2x6s for the treads, what I did not do, once I got the lumber home, was continue that awareness/selection in orienting the cut down pieces so the cupping would be downward to avoid the trapping of water on the upper side, as you mention. Another learning step. 

Thanks for the guidelines regarding the gaps. I can work with that fairly well, I believe. 

There are a number of books and articles that go into wood grain patterns in lumber and associated shrinkage/warping. The primary one that I have read is:
Understanding Wood - A Craftsman's Guide to Wood Technology, by R. Bruce Hoadley
Very technical and a bit of a difficult read. But, I've read others and while I have not studied many articles on the topic, I am certain there are MANY. 

The figure you posted is a good one. Another, from Hoadley's book is below.

Rick


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## RickKr (Dec 30, 2018)

Here is a better one from Hoadley's book, regarding the types of warpage. But the one you posted is still better as it shows where in the log each type comes from. 

Rick


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Usually once pieces are joined a lot of the tendency to seriously warp is reduced by the forces of the joint. It's like stacking freshly sawn lumber. The weight of the stack keeps them flat while the boards dry.


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## dgwoods (Oct 1, 2018)

Gee, I wish I had seen these pics back on your jig post. I would have suggested making a pocket, rather than leaving the back open.

Stairs are typically not assembled w/glue. There are a couple of styles that I know about & probably more. Style 1 has the slot tapered on the underside. The tread is inserted from the back and then a wedge driven underneath it to hold it in place. I've seen the wedge glued and not glued.

Style 2 has all thread under the treads, but not necessarily all of them.

Style 3, what I'd do, is use RTA connectors. The 2x lumber will have quite a bit of movement and the end grain is weak so a screw will not hold that well. However if you drill 2" from the edge vertically thru the tread and place an RTA anchor, 2 per side, you should be all set. The RTA anchor is ~5/16" metal dowel cross drilled and tapped for 1/4-20 threads. A flat head, stainless, socket cap screw will make for a classy aesthetic. Of course, drilling into the side & tread end grain to intersect the anchor is the tricky part.

Time for another jig


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## RickKr (Dec 30, 2018)

dgwoods said:


> Gee, I wish I had seen these pics back on your jig post. I would have suggested making a pocket, rather than leaving the back open
> 
> ....snip...
> 
> ...


I've used the RTA connectors before, but with the use of threaded inserts (helicoil type) in the end grain rather than the RTA anchor. I didn't know the name for them. Drilling and tapping the holes in the ends of 1x2 pine was a PIA. That project and one other were the justification for me buying a router and router table a little over a year ago. That started my current adventure into woodworking. The RTA bolts and threaded inserts were use at the corner joints for the large frame. 

I've assembled a few furniture pieces that used them. I think mostly IKEA stuff. I even bought a couple of 10 ft long lengths of 1/2" dia. aluminum rod that I was going to make my own anchors from for a workbench. Never happen and the rods are sitting in storage. 

I considered making a pocket for the treads, but obviously decided against it. The angle on the back of the treads blend fairly well with the stringers. 

Rick


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## RickKr (Dec 30, 2018)

Stick486 said:


> the easiest way to ''fix'' the tight dado is to shallow rabbet (cross grain) the tread... best to put it on the bottom of the tread...
> you want a nice easy fit but not snug to let the adhesive do it's thing...


Rabbeting the tread was the ticket. Thanks, Stick.

I used the TS with dado stack to cut a 1/16" deep rabbet on each under side (first photo). All of the treads have twist so I held them down in a way that the high spots could be trimmed another 1/16". All of the treads now slip in with no problem (second photo). Some are just snug enough to not wiggle and none seem too loose. 

The third photo below of the ladder looks like the others posted, but it is with all the treads rabbeted. There is a slight twist to the assembly, about 3/4" over the 10 ft length. You can't see it but there is a gap between the stringer and horse at the near, left. It was easy to clamp it down straight to the horses, but it will likely be more difficult once the screws are in place and snugged up.

Rick


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## RickKr (Dec 30, 2018)

*To Drill or Not To Drill*

Is there a compelling reason to NOT pre-drill the screw holes - in the receiving wood? I WILL be pre-drilling screw holes in the stringers and gussets (if I use gussets); there is no point in discussing that step. But, I do not want the screws going wanky and I do want the work flow to be enhanced by pre-locating the screws and making the process easier. 

I am asking about drilling, what are essentially guidance and clearance holes in the *treads*, as things are assembled, using the pre-drilled holes in the stringers as pilot holes. Information from the manufacturers about using the screws is that pre-drilling is not "required", but nothing is said about any reasons to NOT pre-drill. I am not talking about drilling holes so large that there is anything close to a loose fit. I believe there is benefit in having tight wood around the screw shafts, particularly in the receiving wood, where the threads must bite and secure the joint. 

I believe there is benefit for at least three reasons, 1) as mentioned, guidance, 2) speed and 3) prevention of splitting. Guidance is obvious. Speed is where no time is lost attempting to locate and start screws as the glue-up gets underway and through to completion. Splitting may not be much of a problem, but these structural screws are fairly large, on the order of lag screws. I do not use lag screws without pre-drilling, so why not with these screws as well? But, I am sure that splitting would not be good. 

About the only thing I can think of that might result from pre-drilling is a reduction in holding strength. Does driving the screws into the solid wood create enough pressure around the threads that is important to its holding strenght, or something like that? 

Rick


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## RickKr (Dec 30, 2018)

Slow day in the shop. I drilled the pilot holes in the stringers. 

I also did a trial glue up of the tread, using the rabbet test piece and the stringer pocket test board. Went nicely. Glad I did as I used too much glue, but it wasn't all that bad. At first, I clamped it. Then I took a couple of the shorter structural screws and screwed the pieces together. I was impressed with how much more blue squeezed out. Testament to the power of the screws. I did not drill pilot holes in the tread piece. 

Good to get a sense of how much glue to use. 

Rick


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

the torque factor will increase if the pilot hole for the screw through the stringer is a clearance hole..

for end grain your screws should be at least 3½~4'' long for the treads and 3~3½'' for the gussets...
3 ea screws at 3½'' or 2 screws at 4''...
3 screws per gusset...
2 through the stringer and 1 through the tread...

before you go and not make up your mind about the gussets..
every ladder you can find in a store WILL HAVE gussets..

I hope you cleaned up the squeeze out because once it cures ir is a done deal...


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## RickKr (Dec 30, 2018)

Tread screws are 4 1/2", gussets are 3". I was planning on just two screws for the gussets, but can use three. I will have to get another box, but they come in a cool, sturdy plastic box that I will use in my shop. 

Cleanup of the squeeze out on the trial was what you see in the photo. It was just scraped/wiped up, no mineral spirits. Looking at it now, I see a lot of "shiny", so a bit of solvent may be in order. I hope to use a bit less glue such that there is less squeeze out to clean up, but I don't want to use too little and not get enough glue into the joint. I'd rather clean up. 

Good to know about the stringer clearance hole. I used a 3/16" drill, but the test screws were the shorter ones and slightly smaller diameter (0.201"). Stringer screw shafts are 0.225". I can use a #2 drill (0.221") or #1 drill (0.228"). 

Rick


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

you using glue or adhesive???
#2 drill bit...


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## RickKr (Dec 30, 2018)

Stick486 said:


> you using glue or adhesive???
> #2 drill bit...


The Loctite adhesive your recommended, the PL stuff. I just called it glue. I like it. 

#2 would be my preference also.

Rick


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

which style screw did you use???
it matters...

*RSS/GRK???*










*Low Profile Cabinet Screw*










*Multi-Purpose Screw*










it matters....


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## RickKr (Dec 30, 2018)

I have not used anything on the ladder yet. I did use the RSS/GRK style screws on the test joint, where I also used the PL adhesive. Initials on the head of these are "WBS". See the photos below. 

The black, longer ones are the TimberLOK that you recommended as one of the types of screws to use. These will be used to join the treads to the stringers. I would be using the same TimberLOK screws for the gussets, but they didn't have them in the length I need. The gold, shorter ones are as close to the RSS/GRK that was the other type and will be used to attach the gussets. They are essentially the same to my eye, except for aspects of the head. The TimberLOK heads are 3/4" OD, the gold ones are 5/8". 

I sure hope you do not have issues with these screws, as, as far as I can tell, I've followed your recommendations (almost) to the letter. 

Rick


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

I wouldn't consider screwing into end grain with screws that size without pre drilling. It's pine, it will be outdoors. I generally pre drill with a bit that is smaller than the thread width, and more the thickness of the main shaft of the screw. The construction glue Stick mentioned will be doing almost all of the holding the joint together, the screw is a sort of backup. The Gussets keep it from racking and add additinal support at the joint. I was looking at ladders today and yes, they all had gussets. For wooden gussets, I would rather have some sort of hard wood, and I'd glue them as well. Ladder companies have enormous liability so their examples give us a place to start on a project like this one.


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## RickKr (Dec 30, 2018)

DesertRatTom said:


> I wouldn't consider screwing into end grain with screws that size without pre drilling. It's pine, it will be outdoors. I


The wood is actually Douglas fir, but I don't know how much difference that makes. Perhaps a bit stronger. 

Please elaborate on your reticence to screwing into end grain (I am too and that is why I initially planned on using pocket screws to avoid it). Splitting? Pulling out? Other?

If it doesn't split, would the compression of the wood displaced by the screw shaft increase the density of the wood around the screw and increase it's holding power? Or perhaps, that compression fractures the wood and weakens it? 

Pulling out is another possibility. One thought I've had is that the threads are buried so deep, that despite it being end grain, there is so much wood between the last thread and the end of the wood, that it will resist being pulled out. But then, as speculated above, if the wood is weakened, it may be more prone to pulling out. 

I would be interested in your take on it. 



DesertRatTom said:


> ...snip... I generally pre drill with a bit that is smaller than the thread width, and more the thickness of the main shaft of the screw. ...snip...


Pre-drilling has already happened for the stringers and is still planned for the treads, once they are pre-assembled and ready for gluing. Each tread will have to be kept with the slots by which they were drilled. I've been thinking a lot about that process. For pre-drilling in the tread, I would pick a drill size that is just slightly smaller than the shaft size of the screw, much like the discussion earlier with Stick about the gusset screws. In such a case, the threads have full bite without any excess space, but without the wood compression. 

Rick


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

DesertRatTom said:


> 1... I wouldn't consider screwing into end grain with screws that size without predrilling.
> 
> 2... It's pine, it will be outdoors. I generally predrill with a bit that is smaller than the thread width, and more the thickness of the main shaft of the screw.
> 
> ...


1... if you examine the tip and treading on the screws it's intended to be installed w/o predrilling...

2... However, if you choose to predrill, you'd drill a slightly smaller hole than the main shank so that the thread's holding strength isn't compromised...

3... That's *ADHESIVE,* not glue... there is a world of difference...
the adhesive will waterproof the join and *SHARE* the holding power...
and the glue is, well, glue and it will plasticize in extended direct sunlight compromising it's strength...
(have you ever looked, deeply, into why/how come of outdoor furniture joint failures)???...
the screw prevents shear and joint separation under duress... (the screws are shear rated the adhesive isn't)...

4... it's way more than that.. 
the adhesive and the screws are a collaborated production....

5... Yes...

6... if he changes to hardwood for the gussets he'll need to change style (thread pitch) of the screws...
the GRK's and TimberLoks are engineered for construction grade lumbers...


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## RickKr (Dec 30, 2018)

*Stringers: To Plane or Not to Plane?*

I am looking at the possible need to plane the stringers for this ladder. They are slightly warped lengthwise, but over 10ft, only by about 1/4-3/8", so that is really not bad at all, it seems to me. I think there is not much I can to about it, regardless.

They are, however, cupped, side to side and that is presenting me with an issue of squareness of the treads when mounted. I've decide to use wooden gussets. If I were to use the metal ones, perhaps the issue would not be as noticeable to the eye and maybe not as much of a problem for the ladder. I'm open to your thoughts on this, once you see the photos and read what is below. I've already prepared the wooden ones, as can be seen in the background of some of the photos below. 

Due to the cupping, it appears to me that the treads are forced to be not square with the stringer. Looking at it on the micro-scale, it doesn't look like much ~1/16", but looking at it on the macro-scale, it is substantial, at least to me ~3/8" (last photo). As can be seen, I have the tread and gusset clamped in, in such a way as to (hopefully) reflect how they will be once installed with the screws. (I have seen that change when the screws actually go in, especially with the high torque of these structural screws, but I don't know what to do about that other than actually using the screws.) The micro-scale (short squares) only reflects the effects of the cupping close to the tread. I think the macro-scale (large square, last photo) is more telling as it reflects the relationship of the tread to the actual length of the stringer, rather than just the cross section close to the tread. (BTW, the gussets ARE square. I've checked them.)

This might be something that could be dealt with by making sure the treads are square when the "adhesiving" (NOT "gluing") and screwing happens, prior to adding the gussets. BUT, once the gussets go in, they will tend to drive the treads off-square, inflicting a racking, twisting or warping force that I think the gussets are supposed to guard against. Seems counterproductive and counter-intuitive. I do not want to try to sand (12" disk sander) each gusset to conform to whatever angle results after the treads are assembled and fixed. 

I am wondering if I should plane the stringers to remove the cupping. They are cupped about 1/16 to 3/32" across the width of the stringer. Something on that order would have to come off only the tread side if the stringer side is convex (bulged) but if it is concave (cupped), as it is in the example photos, I believe the planing would have to start with the concave side down to get the other side flat and then turned over to plane the concave (tread) side flat. 

Planing boards this size with my DeWalt 735 seems like a challenge, even with the small extension wings, but I think it is doable. I have some good roller strands. There is also the option of adding a longer bottom support (table/platen?)

Please let me know your thoughts. Am i overthinking/over worrying about this and it will all work out if I just move forward without correcting for this? Doesn't feel that way to me, but... 

Rick


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

Hey Rick...I wouldn't do anything about it...wait til you see it after a couple of months in the weather...you'll be happy you didn't fuss with it...

Get it done and let the kids have at it...


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

skip the wood gussets..
move to the head of the class...

*https://www.homedepot.com/p/Simpson...8-Gauge-Galvanized-Gusset-Angle-GA2/100375243*
*https://www.amazon.com/Simpson-Strong-GA2-18-Gauge-4-inch/dp/B00476R4T8*


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Rick; re the screws and predrilling issues. It's not the immediate future that's the problem, it's down the road 5 years or so and being exposed to weather.
D. Fir is an excellent choice but like anything it ages and weathers; _moisture will get in and the wood will deteriorate._
The earlier suggestion of threaded rod and cap nuts on the outside of the stringers would have gone a long way toward preventing the stringers pulling away from the treads eventually.
Maintenance will be really really important!


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## RickKr (Dec 30, 2018)

I believe I have solved the mystery. The ends of the treads were not square, in either direction but I think it is the thickness that matters here. It was the miter saw being out of square, at least in the resultant cuts. I thought I had set it up well initially, but apparently not. I'll check it and set it up better. 

But, I tried sanding the ends to square them up. That showed me I needed to setup/square my disk sander better. Without going into the details, it now sands so square in both directions that I can only barely see light across the width and no light across the thickness. BTW, I used one of my iGaging Angle Cubes for setting the sander up, as well as when I "worked" on the sander miter gauge to get it squared, in both directions. (edit: that is true, up to the point of checking squareness of the sander in use. Some fine adjustments were made to the table and miter gauge based on using precision squares against the sanded edges. But the angle cube got it very close.)

Putting three sanded treads in the stringers and clamping them in, everything is very square, far better than before and plenty good enough to go forward - finally. The treads were very square to the stringers. The bottom ends of the stringers were within 1/4" whereas before they were about 1" off. The wooden gussets fit extremely well, so I will use them. I understand there is a better gusset (the Simpson Strong-Ties) that could be used, but at one point the wooden gussets was the recommended option. The gussets are ready and the gusset holes were already pre-drilled. I'm going to do it that way.

I greatly appreciate all the help that has been provided. If problems arise after it is all built, allya'll can give me grief :wink:

Rick


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## RickKr (Dec 30, 2018)

*Mistake Not Predrilling Tread End Grain*

I proceeded with pre-adhesive, trial assembly by setting all the treads in place and screwing in the primary construction scews. MISTAKE! I had only screwed them in about half the distance they'd need to go for final assembly. But that was enough. Fourteen of the total 36 split. Two holes, one on each end of seven of the nine threads. I did this under the assumption that these screws did not require pre-drilling, something that I had planned on doing. Right now, I am not sure why I didn't. I suspect the pre-drilling capability of these screws is in cross grain use, not end grain, something I had considered, but unfortunately chose to disregard. 

I considered trying to salvage these, as they are the second set of treads already and very nice lumber. And, I made a special trip to the lumber yard in the closest neighboring town, 15 mi. away because they have a far greater supply of lumber that the two in my small town. I did this to be able to use quarter sawn wood so the treads would be straight and remain so, as much as might be possible. That was not such a bad course, as the old tread boards were repurposed onto the wooden gussets. But that lumber yard is closed on Sunday, so I have to wait until tomorrow to go find another good 2x12x12 to rip down to get the quarter sawn sections, which is what I did to get these. These split tread will make awesome kindling for my daughter's wood stove.

Salvaging the split treads could be done, I tried on one. But it required expanding the splits with a wedge, forcing glue into the opened splits and clamping with my most powerful clamps. One being my 4" Wilton machinist vise and the other end a beefy, adjustable screw clamp. I didn't care for the result and am really not interested in doing that with the others, partly because most of them are not as badly split and will be harder to get open enough to get glue in there. I used one of those hypodermic needle glue applicators, but is was a bother trying to get the clue into the cracks where that thing wouldn't go. 

I expect to hear a string of "oh, you can do it this way...s", which will be good for the record and I am interested in knowing that. But, I am not going to bother with that. Getting a new board and cutting out new teads will not be that much work and I know I'll be a lot happier with the result - and I WILL pre-drill this time, as I had planned on doing in the first place. Having to wait a day to get a new board is not that much of a problem. There is always plenty to do in the meantime, such as having my granddaughter over for the morning. 

Rick


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

> But it required expanding the splits with a wedge, forcing glue into the opened splits and clamping with my most powerful clamps


spread the splits open a little w/ a fat screw and then pull the glue into the splits w/ a vacuum applied from the underside and the glue from the top side...


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

You could get away without drilling on a screw size up to about #8. After that its a good idea to drill a pilot hole the size of the shank of the screw between the threads (thread root to root).

I sometimes use an air nozzle to blow glue into a crack. I read once that the primary cause of joint failure is over clamping. You squeeze out so much glue that there isn't enough left to make a proper bond. Usually you need just enough pressure to close the gap and that's enough.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

*Get a Grip*



Cherryville Chuck said:


> You could get away without drilling on a screw size up to about #8. After that its a good idea to drill a pilot hole the size of the shank of the screw between the threads (thread root to root).
> 
> I sometimes use an air nozzle to blow glue into a crack. I read once that the primary cause of joint failure is over clamping. You squeeze out so much glue that there isn't enough left to make a proper bond. Usually you need just enough pressure to close the gap and that's enough.


That posted video clip of the matchstick modeler, a couple of weeks ago; he didn't use any clamps...just slid his match sticks into his glue bead and moved on to the next one. Those large sheet panels that he pre-fabed looked pretty solid! 
That has been mentioned in the past; sliding the components onto the glue seems to work well. Again, little or no actual clamping.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

There are lots of very low pressure but highly effective methods of clamping work such as surgical tubing, masking tape, rubber bands, spring clamps, and even just putting a weight on top. The one handed clamps don't put a lot of pressure on either but lots of times that's all you need.


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## RickKr (Dec 30, 2018)

*Glued and Screwed*

Glued and screwed - construction of the ladder is done. 

Yes, I know it was not "glue" that was used, but "adhesived" just didn't have the right ring to it.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

nicely done...


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## Hover (Nov 13, 2019)

What is your plan for keeping the stringers from spreading...?


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## RickKr (Dec 30, 2018)

Nothing more than has been done. The stringers are joined to the treads and gussets by four structural fasteners and structural adhesive, as discussed previously. If they spread, they spread. 

The whole situation has changed. My daughter has come to the realization she cannot afford to stay on this property and will be out by the end of July. I'll be installing some adhesive tread grit strips, 4" wide and then the ladder will go up. Snow has melted enough to get at the base. I'll install the ladder and my granddaughter will get to use it for a while. After that, I'm not going to care what happens. 

Rick


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## RickKr (Dec 30, 2018)

The ladder is nearly done. It is in place and just needs to be positioned and anchored. 

My granddaughter and I put the grip treads on over the past couple weeks. She helped by applying a black primer to the D. fir treads over a week ago. Yesterday, she did a lot of the work of cutting the self-adhesive sand grit tread strips to length and rounding the corners. I assisted with the utility knife/guidance. She put them onto the ladder treads (first photo). Grandma (the former wife) came by and her reaction, upon seeing it for the first time was "just a bit of overkill?" In the words of Bill The Cat "THPPPTT".

Today, we transported the ladder to Holly's house and set it in place. She definitely likes it (second photo). 

It doesn't quite fit as I planned it. Not sure if it is too tall or just what. With the top tread lined up as planned (third photo), the stringers stick up too far at the top (third and fourth photos). Pushing the stringers out to where they should be, the top tread is too far away (fifth photo). 

I can fill the gap between top tread and platform without losing anything, I think. Not sure if trimming the bottom ends of the stringers will help with anything.

I am quite pleased with it overall, however, and the final fitting should get done in the next couple days. 

Rick


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## difalkner (Jan 3, 2012)

Looks great, Rick! That'll get a LOT of use this summer.

David


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## RickKr (Dec 30, 2018)

difalkner said:


> Looks great, Rick! That'll get a LOT of use this summer.
> 
> David



Yeah, even by me, too.


Rick


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## RickKr (Dec 30, 2018)

RickKr said:


> difalkner said:
> 
> 
> > Looks great, Rick! That'll get a LOT of use this summer.
> ...


Informational update, what the ladder looks like, in the summer. 

Rick


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