# Probotix vs. Shopbot



## rrrun (Jun 17, 2014)

I'm a long way from a decision ... please help me get there.

I run a busy hobbyist shop, making cutting boards & such to sell at craft fairs and holiday boutiques. I will sell somewhere north of 600 pieces this year, so I'm busy. I believe a CNC will help me be more efficient, and I have begun my research on which unit would be best for me. That's where you come in.

I do not want a build-it-yourself DIY hobbyist unit. I want a dependable machine that will be easy for a non-CNC person to use. I'm good with computers, but have minimal experience with design software. I think my budget will be around $7,500. 

OK, go.

I *think* that I'm most interested in a Shopbot Desktop MAX or a Probotix Asteroid. I need a minimum bed size of 24" x 36". Shop size is a relevant consideration; getting a bigger machine is probably out of the question. 

I do want to buy an American machine. I want to buy good software as needed to complement that choice. What should I be looking at? Am I even asking the right questions?

Thanks for sharing your wisdom, something that is all to often in short supply.


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

Dollar for dollar - Probotix is cheaper. I was on the Shopbot boat til I found out about Probotix. I didn't want to build one either. I wanted to cut. 
With your budget you could easily get a Probotix Meteor, spindle, and software. AND support people that speak English .... the owner and/or the person that built your machine. 
It'll come with it's own computer already set up with Linux and a copy of Vectric Cut2D, which you can upgrade thru Vectric and get $150 credit. If you can get away with Vcarve, instead of Aspire (depends if you need 3D capabilities) it will be cheaper yet on the total bottom line. An air cooled spindle will outlast many routers, and is quieter. But they are 220V. I have a Probotix Nebula, and could have gotten away with a Meteor. But I believe you should get a size bigger than you think you'll need because you'll surely expand your product line.
4D can go into more detail, but I believe for the cost, Probotix is the way to go. Shopbot makes great machines, but they are geared toward the bigger industrial user, and are much more expensive and difficult to operate. Just my opinion.

HJ


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## LDBecker (Jun 16, 2015)

I think a Shopbot Max with a spindle is $10k-ish. Their user base is apparently much bigger than Probotix's - at least judging by the activity on their forum.

HJ- Why do you say Probotix is easier to use?

Sorry to jump into this discussion - I imagine there are many of us on the fence out here...

Rerun - similar shop to mine (but yours is a bit neater right now) - no router table?

Larry


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

I'm trying to remember my Shopbot info. I may be wrong but I believe they have their own software which is exclusive to their machines. As I said before, they are great machines, but not geared for the serious hobbiest or small business owner. And they are pricey. Notice they only have 1 benchtop model. Plus you have to add your own computer and monitor.
I sit in my office and design whatever in Aspire, load it on a thumbdrive in Gcode, plug it in the machine's computer, and turn it on. Now I have a project file saved on my main office computer and a copy on a thumbdrive. Keep track of what is on the thumbdrive and you have an automatic backup. Plus you can share files with othe Aspire users.
Larry, I don't know why you keep trying to find the downside to Probotix when you haven't had any experience with them, and don't seem to believe those of us who comment on them. There are many here on the Forum that use their machines. I don't think that we're all wrong. Are they perfect? Nope. Has there been some problems? Yep. Have they been solved? Yup. All I know is Probotix has worked for me and several others. And I don't think we're any different than you in what what we do, or want to do.
4D can say it more elegantly.

HJ


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## kp91 (Sep 10, 2004)

Just to add more things to think about, I would like to recommend the Digital Wood Carver. Digital Wood Carver It is a slightly bigger machine than the desktops, but still generally compact, about the footprint of your tablesaw. I went back and forth for a few years over what machine I wanted to buy, build, or buy used. After a lot of communication with the builder of this machine (they are built in Indiana, and tech support is either Laney in Florida or Burl in Indiana, both very helpful) I was convinced. I was finally able to see the machine in operation at a woodworking show, and was satisfied that it was a solid machine. I have been very happy so far, I still have a lot to learn to get everything out of what this unit can do.

I was stunned by the cost of the software compared to the prices of the machines. Using Vectric you can pay anywhere from $600 to $1900 depending on what functions you intend on using. I looked at other options, but the one thing that convinced me to go with the Vectric software was it's simplicity. Some days it is worth spending a few extra dollars to avoid the frustration of fighting with a piece of software to get it to do what you need it to do. I have been pleasantly surprised with the number of training resources and the helpful folks on the Vectric forum who have gotten me through some roadblocks.


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## kp91 (Sep 10, 2004)

honesttjohn said:


> I didn't want to build one either. I wanted to cut.
> HJ


HJ,

The tinkerer inside of me originally wanted to build one, but not the 'first' one. Having to learn the CNC process and suffer with any problems or limits of a home-built unit might have made the process a lot less enjoyable.

I admit that at times I have 'patience' issues, so it's best to avoid all the frustration I can.


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## rrrun (Jun 17, 2014)

> no router table?


I definitely have a router table ... but it's covered by the box, the 8/4 Hard Maple, & the big pile of cutting board blanks in the picture. I try to keep the workbench clear, so every other flat surface becomes temporary storage as the cutting boards move through their various processes on the way to the finish line. 

To make room for the CNC, I'm anticipating building an outdoor shed and moving my lumber storage to there. That clears up a bit of floor space ... but, I'm sure, not enough.

I'm friends with a guy that LOVES ShopBot, and uses a large unit with a vacuum table. Lovely machine ... but far more than I can afford, or need, for that matter. I currently need a unit that's at least 22" x 28", but I'm sure needs will grow. I'm already sad that I only bought the 16/32 drum sander instead of the next size up.

FWIW, current floor tools are a table saw, router table, drum sander, drill press & band saw. In this shop upgrade, I'm thinking of adding the CNC as well as a quality belt sander - as well as all new cabinetry, but that's a discussion for another day.


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## 4DThinker (Feb 16, 2014)

I went with a Probotix Meteor after running into the limits of what I could do on my original CNC Shark. All the work I was doing at that time was flat 2D cuts, an occasional 2.5d v-carving, and a rare flat 3D part. I had no clue what the true potential of my Meteor was at that time. It was just larger than the Shark. 

I teach furniture design and production at a Kansas college. My students often draw up furniture that appears impossible to build. At some point I had the MDF top off of my Meteor and realized the area under the bed was open (no gantry parts running through it) and available for clamping almost anything underneath the spindle. The t-slotted rails of the frame permit easy mounting of jigs or templates or brackets or bridges or anything I might need to make to hold a work piece for cutting. My angle jig (link) clamps onto the inner side of the front frame rail and lets me cut just about any conventional or CNC-original joint (link) at any angle or compound angle. I've even made bridges to span across the open frame (link) for supporting an assembled cabinet that needed a joinery detail cut on its bottom side. 

I have since convinced my college to buy a Meteor and Nebula from Probotix for use in our fine furniture lab. It is the potential of that open frame that make their CNCs so useful. JMHO. I make no commission or salary from Probotix.

4D


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## SteveMI (May 29, 2011)

For cutting boards you do not need a ShopBot for the difference in money. Many guys on here are successful and happy with the Probotic machines. Asteroid is probably half the price of the other desktops in the class.

I do Baltic Birch ply at 400 inches per minute at full 3/4" on a ShopBot Alpha and ShopBot Buddy. Double compression bit and both sides are perfect. I can do 3D at 300 inches per minute (actually limited by the tooling), which really counts on time. Solid wood is 250 ipm at 3/8" per pass. The Alpha model is 600 ipm rapid travel, not sure about the Buddy. Their machines come with a full copy of Vectic V-Carve and Autodesk Fusion 360. Downside is that the price you see on the first screen can go up quite a bit with adding a spindle and other options to get the better performance.

Actually, if I was going to get a ShopBot price level machine, I would go with a CamMaster. They are fully welded, Rapid travel 600 ipm and 350 ipm cutting on their smallest desktop machine. Also they use linear bearings and rack/pinion drive for X & Y axis. Their desktop is the Stinger. Stinger I | Small CNC Router | CAMaster 

But, for cutting boards and desktop footprint the Probotic is the logical choice.

Note : I have never used a Probotic CNC.

Steve.


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## beltramidave (Jan 6, 2016)

Probotix have good machines and are really ready to run when you get them. I have been involved in purchasing and setting up several of their machines and they are being used in a cabinet shop doing specialized operations without any problems.

Talk with Len and he will get you what you want.

Dave


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## LDBecker (Jun 16, 2015)

*Not trying to say anything negative about Probitix!!!!!*



honesttjohn said:


> I'm trying to remember my Shopbot info. I may be wrong but I believe they have their own software which is exclusive to their machines. As I said before, they are great machines, but not geared for the serious hobbiest or small business owner. And they are pricey. Notice they only have 1 benchtop model. Plus you have to add your own computer and monitor.
> I sit in my office and design whatever in Aspire, load it on a thumbdrive in Gcode, plug it in the machine's computer, and turn it on. Now I have a project file saved on my main office computer and a copy on a thumbdrive. Keep track of what is on the thumbdrive and you have an automatic backup. Plus you can share files with othe Aspire users.
> Larry, I don't know why you keep trying to find the downside to Probotix when you haven't had any experience with them, and don't seem to believe those of us who comment on them. There are many here on the Forum that use their machines. I don't think that we're all wrong. Are they perfect? Nope. Has there been some problems? Yep. Have they been solved? Yup. All I know is Probotix has worked for me and several others. And I don't think we're any different than you in what what we do, or want to do.
> 4D can say it more elegantly.
> ...


So sorry for the misunderstanding... I have ZERO experience with CNC machines personally - just trying to understand. I would LOVE to spend less money on a machine. I was just asking why you thought using a Probitix machine was easier than Shopbot... I feel badly for jumping into the discussion. I'll keep my nose out until I get ready to buy myself. Sorry again.


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

No problem, Rev. It's a lot less expensive listening to others' experiences and learning than doing it all the hard way.

HJ


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## LDBecker (Jun 16, 2015)

I'll do it more quietly now- sorry. I really do appreciate your insight and advice on all of this.


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## SteveMI (May 29, 2011)

rrrun said:


> I will sell somewhere north of 600 pieces this year, so I'm busy. I believe a CNC will help me be more efficient...


Henry,

Have you considered a router sled for surfacing with templates for shape and drip groove on the cutting boards? CNC are great for many things, but looking at your website I am not sure it isn't overkill. Also, you really need to think through how you are going to hold the cutting boards to do what you intend to.

I wouldn't want my permanent record to show I talked someone out of buying a tool, but a CNC might not be your best choice.

Steve.


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## rrrun (Jun 17, 2014)

SteveMI said:


> Henry,
> 
> Have you considered a router sled for surfacing with templates for shape and drip groove on the cutting boards? CNC are great for many things, but looking at your website I am not sure it isn't overkill. Also, you really need to think through how you are going to hold the cutting boards to do what you intend to.
> 
> ...


Great questions.

I have done juice grooves with templates ... but know that it is much more efficient hiring "my guy" to do them with his CNC. Given how much I'm spending that way, purchasing a CNC isn't a terribly far reach.

Many of my shaped boards (pix below) would also benefit from CNC ... and all do currently begin with templates, though I admit I currently cut them to shape on a bandsaw, and then sand using a benchtop belt sander. That has seemed more efficient than using the router table, but that could well be that I'm not doing it correctly. 

The ability to efficiently do routed bowls would open up my universe, as well, since I am definitely on a quest for the perfect cheese & cracker server.

I would actually be fine if I figured out a way to be efficient without buying the CNC, so no disrespect at all about the discussion of a non-purchase alternative universe. However, making these shapes would be quicker with a CNC. I think. True?

And I need to add a chicken-shaped cutting board. And a fish-shaped cutting board. And....

Finally, I like seeing the positives about Probotix. My real job is selling computer systems for radio stations ... and the locally-owned, Iowa-based company I work for uses a similar Linux architecture.


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## SteveMI (May 29, 2011)

I make cribbage boards and drilling the 400+ holes accurately in each one makes a CNC essential. I used to use the CNC to cut the perimeter round and state shape, but found it was faster to do it on a band saw. 

The pocketed trays are much better on a CNC. For sizing a CNC, consider the size tray you want to make and what size CNC will fit multiples on it. That saves me a lot of time since you only do a tool change (bowl bit to edge bit) once per the group. Consider offering a valet tray with slot for cell phone charger, very similar to routed tray. There are also several designs for CNC boxes with routed drawers.

In selecting the CNC model and options contact the maker for their advise on feed rates / depth of cut / diameter of bowl bit with the machines. You are going to be moving a lot of material and rigidity of the gantry along with hp and motor size play a big role. The time to machine can vary greatly. Use their knowledge, calculating it all yourself from chip load and motor strength can give you a migraine in the beginning. I can tell you that a variable speed router or spindle is essential.

Steve.


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## MEBCWD (Jan 14, 2012)

SteveMI said:


> Henry,
> 
> Have you considered a router sled for surfacing with templates for shape and drip groove on the cutting boards? CNC are great for many things, but looking at your website I am not sure it isn't overkill. Also, you really need to think through how you are going to hold the cutting boards to do what you intend to.
> 
> ...


To hold the cutting boards a small vacuum system would allow cutting around the board for shape and routing juice groves. You can use a small shop vac for the vacuum and you can use your CNC to cut all the parts for the vacuum table or pod. You would be surprised how well a shop vac system works. 

Also the expansion of the product line would have new possibilities.

I do inlays for a customer in his line of end grained cutting boards and personalized items is a big plus in today's craft market, the CNC would add the best method to offer this type of item to your customers.


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

Henry,

Those are too too nice to actually cut on!!!!




Mike,

You got plans or a website for the vacuum system?

HJ


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## whimsofchaz (Jun 6, 2013)

How come nobody is talking about Powermatic?


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## MEBCWD (Jan 14, 2012)

This video will explain the whole thing and remember this can all be scaled down for smaller tables or for small stand alone clamping pods that just clamp to your bed. Just over hang the edge of the table so you have somewhere to put the vacuum connector. Table does not have to be very thick. This is one of my future projects.


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## rrrun (Jun 17, 2014)

whimsofchaz said:


> How come nobody is talking about Powermatic?


Personally, I don't know anything about that company's brand new CNC product line. I understand they have a legacy in power tools. But in computer control? No clue.


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## SteveMI (May 29, 2011)

rrrun said:


> Personally, I don't know anything about that company's brand new CNC product line. I understand they have a legacy in power tools. But in computer control? No clue.


I looked up the Powermatic and will put some info in another post, not to hijack this one.

Steve.


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## 4DThinker (Feb 16, 2014)

No obvious potential for vertical or angled clamping under the router of that Powermatic CNC.

I've just finished installing a large version of my angled clamping jig on the Probotix Nebula we have in our (temporary) college shop. I'm seriously considering using two of these as the new bed for my personal Meteor. Rectangular holes in the face for c-clamps. Threads inserts in a 3" x 3" array. Room around the perimeter (outside cutting limits) for clamps. Jig adjusts and locks at any angle from 0 (horizontal) to 90 (vertical) degrees. Vertical struts bear against a stretcher running between two legs of the base that Nebula sits on.

4D


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## whimsofchaz (Jun 6, 2013)

4DThinker said:


> No obvious potential for vertical or angled clamping under the router of that Powermatic CNC.
> 
> I've just finished installing a large version of my angled clamping jig on the Probotix Nebula we have in our (temporary) college shop. I'm seriously considering using two of these as the new bed for my personal Meteor. Rectangular holes in the face for c-clamps. Threads inserts in a 3" x 3" array. Room around the perimeter (outside cutting limits) for clamps. Jig adjusts and locks at any angle from 0 (horizontal) to 90 (vertical) degrees. Vertical struts bear against a stretcher running between two legs of the base that Nebula sits on.
> 
> 4D


Why not use a vacuum table?


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## 4DThinker (Feb 16, 2014)

whimsofchaz said:


> Why not use a vacuum table?


Many of the parts we need to cut don't lend themselves to being held in place by a flat vacuum bed/jig. In the same space as our smaller CNCs we have a large Multicam CNC with vacuum bed, and if a job can be cut there it will be. It is the unusual requests/challenges that I can usually find a way to clamp beneath the router on one of the two Probotix CNCs. This is what makes them such valuable tools. A chair stretcher getting tenons cut on my angle/compound angle jig or an assembled cabinet hanging from bridges I made to span across the open frame are more typical of the kinds of things I help students with. We might be looking to clamp down a furniture part that has no flat side.

Although the Probotix CNCs have five inches of Z-travel, only 3 inches of it are above a conventionally mounted MDF top. Eat any of that up with the thickness of a vacuum table and you've lost even more potential for what can be cut. 

4D


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