# Router Table vs Shaper



## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

So what are the differences and similarities between router tables and shapers? Why wouldn't I buy a shaper rather than a router table. Shapers are far more powerful than router tables ( router tables look like toys in comparison). Both use up about the same amount of workshop space and if I want portability than I can use my portable plunge router. Some would say that router tables are more versatile because I can remove the router from the table and use it on a job site but this practice is not mainstream with most just buying a portable job site router.


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Hi Marcel

Shapers or spindle moulders generally have a lot more power than routers - so they can take a far bigger cut in a single pass, you also have the option of grinding your own profiles (if you can afford several thousand dollars for a profile grinder that is), but the cost of carbide tooling in full size shaper blocks can be eye watering whereas router cutters are far more affordable. In a pro shop doing repetitive tasks shapers make a lot of sense, but for a low volume or hobby operation, especially for very short runs or one offs a router table is much, much cheaper to run

Regards

Phil


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Marcel M said:


> So what are the differences and similarities between router tables and shapers? Why wouldn't I buy a shaper rather than a router table. Shapers are far more powerful than router tables ( router tables look like toys in comparison). Both use up about the same amount of workshop space and if I want portability than I can use my portable plunge router. Some would say that router tables are more versatile because I can remove the router from the table and use it on a job site but this practice is not mainstream with most just buying a portable job site router.


- Some shapers will take 1/4" and 1/2" router bits. 
- Shapers have router like fences.
- Shapers are usually heavier in weight (footprint) than a router table.
- Shapers usually have a heavier rated motor.
- Some shapers have a tilting spindle.
- Modern shapers usually have spindle sizes of 3/4 and 1-1/4" sized spindles.
- Shaper cutter "blades" are comparable in cost to router bits.

- Shaper cutter heads themselves are much more costly than router bits... For instance a glue-edge joint shaper head is over $700. Finger joint shaper cutter head $1400. Raise panel shaper cutter head $1000. Kitchen cabinet rail and still cutter head set, $1900. Etc. (Commercial Grade)

- Shapers can take a bigger bite out of a profile than a router or router table. Different type of cutting system.

- Most shapers are initially costlier than router tables. Many are commercial/industrial (rare are those built for a hobbiest). Initial tooling is costlier. But once setup, then in the long run, everything seems cheaper. Overall, having things re-sharpened is cheaper and less frequent.

*** Those are a few I can think of off the top of my head...


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

I thought of a few others:

- You can can reverse the direction of the motor on a shaper. Doing this you can flip the cutter head upside down and feed from the other direction (left t right). This changes whether you are cutting with the top of the board facing down or up.

- With a router table you can run a board over the top of the router bit. You can't do with a shaper because the shaper has an arbor/ bolt sticking up through it. (Unless you are using a bit adapter with router bits in the arbor.)

- You can stack cutters for a complex profile in a shaper.

- Shaper cutters are usually a lot bigger diameter than router bits, which results in a better cut with less ripple than a similar router bit.

- If you do use a router bit adapter in a shaper, the results are usually not the same quality, unless you're using large diameter bits. Most shaper's top speed is 10,000 rpm, where a router's usual top speed 20,000 to 24,00 rpm.

- Shaper cutters do have kickback and grab hazard risks. 

- When trying to compare routers and shapers with the same advertised hp rating... They are not comparable. They are rated "differently." The shaper motor will be more powerful.

- A shaper's spindle travel is usually around 3" where a router table's router arbor travel is around 2 to 2-1/2", depending on who's router and how it''s mounted in the table?

- A shaper is usually for edge and end cutting. Exceptions.


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

Is it safe to say the shapers are more versatile as fixed, shop machines?


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## Sawdust Don (Nov 1, 2012)

A fellow I know from a machinist web site, makes many of his own shaper cutters.
He has a vintage Cincinatti tool and cutter grinder with radius grinding attachment.
I watched another fellow run a heavy duty shaper, it was removing a serious amount of wood with a stack of cutters. He had a power feeder on it.
He said, one has to be careful with those, things can happen with all that force.

I have a tool and cutter grinder with radius attachment, I think a shaper is in my future, but, Iam starting small with a router table first.

Don


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## Chris Curl (Feb 13, 2012)

Thanks for asking this question Marcel. I was also curious about them, but I assumed they were old school versions of the modern day routers and had been replaced by routers. Now it is clear that my assumption was wrong.


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Marcel M said:


> Is it safe to say the shapers are more versatile as fixed, shop machines?


Hi Marcel

Yes, most definately. If you have a shaper with a rebate block and power feeder you can do miles of edge rebates effortlessley. Shapers can also do stuff you can only dream about with a router, e.g. full size tenons for outside doors



MAFoElffen said:


> Shaper cutters do have kickback and grab hazard risks.


Hi Mike

We've sort of got away from that over here. Shapers (spindle moulders) are supplied with Shaw (SUVA) guards, but most trade shops now fit a power feeder. They allow you to go in for climb milling on difficult stock really easily. In any case pretty much all insert tip (carbide) tooling is of limiter design - for general profile blocks we moved over (by law) to anti-kickback designs with limiter knives about 12 to 15 years back. take a look at the Felder web site and you'll see what I mean. Main problem is that to grind the cutters for those you really need a profile grinder - DIY on a pedestal grinder really isn't an option



MAFoElffen said:


> A shaper's spindle travel is usually around 3" where a router table's router arbor travel is around 2 to 2-1/2", depending on who's router and how it''s mounted in the table?


The industrial size machines I'm used to with 30mm or 1-1/4in spindles generally come with 4 to 7.5HP and 120 to 150mm spindle travel is quite common - if you are using stacked cutters you need that - plunge routers typically have a 70mm (2-3/4in travel) with only the Trend T11 and Festool OF2200 claiming 80 mm (3-1/4in). The other thing people don't realise is the relative efficiencies of different motor types. Most router motors only output about 70% of their input power and then only at maximum speed - se a "3-1/4HP" deWalt DW625 has an actual input of 2000 watts, or about 2.7 HP in real terms. It _outputs_ (according to the manufacturer) 1400 watts, or about 1.9 HP. If you think about it a universal motor rated for intermittent use at peak power and weighing just 3kg (6.5lbs) is never going to generate the sheer torque of a 2HP induction motor weighing in at 20kg (44 lbs) which is rated for continuous use.



Chris Curl said:


> Thanks for asking this question Marcel. I was also curious about them, but I assumed they were old school versions of the modern day routers and had been replaced by routers. Now it is clear that my assumption was wrong.


Hardly, Chris. In fact they keep mutating into new concepts such as window lines like the Soukup Crafter. That machine is fundamentally two spindle moulders linked together

Regards

Phil


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## mgmine (Jan 16, 2012)

A shaper and a router although they do similar things are really not the same. If you plan on making mainly molding (and a lot of it) then a shaper would be the way to go. If you plan on making really fancy molding in small quantities and other smaller woodworking projects then a router is the way to go. As already mentioned shaper cutters are expensive and limited. Anything out of the ordinary has to be custom ground. With a router you simple mix a few $20 dollars bits and you can get unlimited profiles.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

I'm all the way with Phil. on this Marcel.


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Marcel, if all you plan on doing is edge cutting at a production shop level then a spindle shaper is the way to go. Shapers do not make cuts in the middle of a board like a dado or cross cut and the cutter cost difference between a shaper blade and a router bit can easily be $100.


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

Mike, I usually cut dados and crosscuts on my tablesaw. If the workpiece is too large, like my current project, than I use my plunge router and a template.


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

Phil P said:


> Hardly, Chris. In fact they keep mutating into new concepts such as window lines like the Soukup Crafter. That machine is fundamentally two spindle moulders linked together


That is an impressive machine. It must require a great deal of set-up time.


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Marcel M said:


> That is an impressive machine. It must require a great deal of set-up time.


Hi Marcel

I can't say for sure on those, but I have set-up stacked tooling (300mm/12in high) on a window spindle moulder before. Each block takes 5 to 10 minutes to set-up and zero, but after that the height is controlled by either a mechanical turret on both the depth and the fence (like a plunge router, but many more stops) or on more modern kit dititally controlled by a CNC controller. Once set-up the tooling is all throw-away TC tips and the set-ups often stay on for weeks (or longer).

Regards

Phil


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

Phil P said:


> Hi Marcel
> 
> I can't say for sure on those, but I have set-up stacked tooling (300mm/12in high) on a window spindle moulder before. Each block takes 5 to 10 minutes to set-up and zero, but after that the height is controlled by either a mechanical turret on both the depth and the fence (like a plunge router, but many more stops) or on more modern kit dititally controlled by a CNC controller. Once set-up the tooling is all throw-away TC tips and the set-ups often stay on for weeks (or longer).
> 
> ...


Okay, so once you set the tooling on the spindle then you must zero out each tool and hydraulically adjust each cutter in two axes with the control system. When the inserts get dull you just replace them with new inserts. Does that sound correct?


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Marcel M said:


> Okay, so once you set the tooling on the spindle then you must zero out each tool and hydraulically adjust each cutter in two axes with the control system. When the inserts get dull you just replace them with new inserts. Does that sound correct?


No hydraulics, Marcel. The only place I know they get used is hydro-lock heads on 4-siders. On the older spindles you loaded all your stacked cutters onto the spindle with spacer rings between them and locked the tooling down with spacers and locking nuts. A top steady arm with an extra bearing is often bolted onto the stack with an upper support bearing. You crank the tooling down to near the bottom leaving just the topmost block showing set at approx. height and then set the first turret stop on the spindle and same for the fence. Make a test cut. Adjust tooling height and fence position, reset turret stops. Repeat until correct. Crank up for the next block and repeat the exercise for turret stop #2, etc. On machines with electronic lifts/fences the process is faster and you just tell the machine to "remember" the settings for each block in turn. It's always a good idea to make a setting sheet and a cut schedule for this type of work so you know where you are! 

I did come across an interesting alternative in the past. The German (?) firm Hemag used to make a spindle moulder with tool changer under the table, Each block was mounted on its' own stub spindle and when you needed to change cutter you withdrew the current cutter below the table and the mechanism swapped the cutter complete with stub spindle for you, From memory these machines had a turret-set fence and coul;d carry seven different stub spindles. One of those machines in on eBay Germany here if you are interested. SCM do a version of their current heavy duty spindle which mounts individual the blocks on HSK63 stub spindles and does the same sort of thing electronically

Regards

Phil


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

Phil P said:


> I did come across an interesting alternative in the past. The German (?) firm Hemag used to make a spindle moulder with tool changer under the table, Each block was mounted on its' own stub spindle and when you needed to change cutter you withdrew the current cutter below the table and the mechanism swapped the cutter complete with stub spindle for you, From memory these machines had a turret-set fence and coul;d carry seven different stub spindles. One of those machines in on eBay Germany here if you are interested. SCM do a version of their current heavy duty spindle which mounts individual the blocks on HSK63 stub spindles and does the same sort of thing electronically
> 
> Regards
> 
> Phil


I am purely interested on an intellectual level and not interested on purchasing one.

Here is milling machine made by Hemag.

hemag inkroosmachine freesmachine wisselaar - YouTube


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Marcel M said:


> I am purely interested on an intellectual level and not interested on purchasing one.


Me neither, Marcel. Last time I came across one of those spindle moulders fro sale in the UK the price was over $10k for a 7 year old machine

Interesting technology, though

Regards

Phil


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Patrick (Quillman) reminded me of a useful fact about shapers in a thread elsewhere today:



Quillman said:


> Typical sharpening 1/2 lives (router cutters) are <300' of stock!
> Wear lines often start before that.
> Shaper cutters of the same profile stand hours of cutting before they've reached their 1/2 lives.
> So what can you do about it? Waste the first 80+% with your worn cutters and get a new set for the finish cuts.


Industrial shaper block are often very different from the brazed tip variety sold for lightweight shapers in that the profile tips/knives are replaceable and can often be faced-off in house several times before they need to be sent out to the grinders

Regards

Phil


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