# RainMans router table build thread



## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

*RainMans router table build*

This is a router table to replace my table saws factory extention . 

Guys and Gals I did my first cut . A full sheet of 3/4" MDF is to much for this old man to handle so I had them cut it in half with there panel saw . This concerned me so I had him mark his cut so I could push the factory cut threw my table saw in order to hopefully end up with the top being square .
After calibrating my fence with a dial gauge for zero runout , I end up with a discrepancy .
If you look at the pics you can see the new piece of MDF laying on top of the factory extention . It is lined up at the front of the table saw . 


The bad news is if you look at the pic below at the top where I wrote good , the factory extensions melamine underneith is exposed about a 1/32" , meaning my piece came out anything but square (verified with a square also ) . Now I can afford to take more off and I'm tempted to try my track saw and correct this , or just let that 1/32" be ? Both ends have the same outcome


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## Ratbob (Apr 6, 2015)

If you can find one edge that has good 90* corners at both ends, put that edge against your fence and rip a new edge opposite the reference edge. In a perfect world that will give you 4 good 90* corners.


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## woodknots (Mar 7, 2012)

Yeah   , but it actually wasn't *YOUR* first cut now was it?

Anyway, not sure I understand the dilemma but I'll give it a try. Is the piece marked "GOOD" actually square and the piece underneath the rip made by the panel saw?

If the piece marked GOOD is square, then how about using a flush trim bit to match the two pieces and remove the extra "unsquare" portion?

But... if the piece marked good doesn't have a square corner, then it's time to square it up with your track saw, then go to the previous step


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## MT Stringer (Aug 15, 2012)

Did you measure diagonally across both ways to see if there is any difference? Maybe the melamine is not square.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Mike I crossed referenced with the square after I cut so I know I scewed up . I was certain I was working off a perfectly square end when I pushed it threw the table saw, but the apparently not ?

Anyways , I fired up my new Festool track saw and the problem is averted . I created a square end then pushed it threw the saw again , and it's square now . I did have a bit of extra length so a 1/32 wasn't an issue .
Not liking the track saw to much as its for lefties IMO 

Ok this plate you see laying on top goes underneath at approx that same location . It is from Incra and has predrilled screw holes for the Allen head screws to adjust the plate plus holes for there dust collector . As you can see there won't be a lot of real estate for the torsion box


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

vchiarelli said:


> Yeah   , but it actually wasn't *YOUR* first cut now was it?
> 
> Anyway, not sure I understand the dilemma but I'll give it a try. Is the piece marked "GOOD" actually square and the piece underneath the rip made by the panel saw?
> 
> ...


Yes you called it Vince . I swore it as the good factory corner ,but something went south as it wasn't . The track saw fixed it . I have to I wonder how the heck I got by without a track saw after trying one . Pretty neat unit but the blades on the opposite side as a skill saw which I find awkward


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

I guess tommorow I'll get some 3/4" plywood . I was going to build the sides from MDF but seeing as there's not a lot of room for as much of a torsion box as I'd like , I'll make the perimeter sides from plywood to as I it should prevent warping more I suspect


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

MDF is a poor choice for a torsion box Rick but there is nothing wrong with using plywood. The I-joists that are commonly used in place of solid wood floor joists are 9+" of 7/16 OSB with wooden caps on the edges to help prevent torsion. Plywood is stronger yet, just more expensive.


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## old55 (Aug 11, 2013)

Rick you've started. Should have it ready by Friday seeing as you are off this week.>>>


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

old55 said:


> Rick you've started. Should have it ready by Friday seeing as you are off this week.>>>


Geez I'm hoping it's done tommorow , but if the glue takes long to set it may be another day




Cherryville Chuck said:


> MDF is a poor choice for a torsion box Rick but there is nothing wrong with using plywood. The I-joists that are commonly used in place of solid wood floor joists are 9+" of 7/16 OSB with wooden caps on the edges to help prevent torsion. Plywood is stronger yet, just more expensive.


Yes the only MDF will be the top . 3/4 ply for the sides and torsion box . 
I am going to glue laminate on the sides as well but put a piece of wood on the exposed end as I don't want sharp edges.
Speaking of laminate , it might be a little precarious doing the sides with a full size router . Maybe I'm going to have to break down and buy a laminate router . Any suggestions on the best choice ?

Ok just did some research and the Bosch Colt got first prize . Of course there won't be one in this one horse town


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Looks to me as if the good and arrow point to a corner instead of to an edge, which could have been confusing.


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## timbertailor (Oct 4, 2009)

RainMan1 said:


> Anyways , I fired up my new Festool track saw and the problem is averted . I created a square end then pushed it threw the saw again , and it's square now . I did have a bit of extra length so a 1/32 wasn't an issue .
> Not liking the track saw to much as its for lefties IMO


Send the track saw my way Rick. I am left handed. Sounds perfect for me.:grin:


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## JFPNCM (Dec 13, 2009)

Some times progress is the most important product.


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## PhilBa (Sep 25, 2014)

Rick, it's great to see you digging into this one! I too use my track saw to trim pieces like you did. It's fantastic for that. Hope to see lots more pics of progress!


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## schnewj (Nov 18, 2013)

Rick,

Don't forget to insulate the torsion box


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

DesertRatTom said:


> Looks to me as if the good and arrow point to a corner instead of to an edge, which could have been confusing.


There's no question about it , I'm a confusing person




timbertailor said:


> Send the track saw my way Rick. I am left handed. Sounds perfect for me.:grin:


Brad it may come to that lol . Seriously I'm not getting why they did that as its kind of awkward to use


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## MT Stringer (Aug 15, 2012)

*Looks like you have been drinking again!*


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## Roy Drake (Feb 10, 2014)

Can't wait to see it. It's a banner week! You're a way ahead of me.


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

RainMan1 said:


> There's no question about it , I'm a confusing person
> 
> 
> 
> Brad it may come to that lol . Seriously I'm not getting why they did that as its kind of awkward to use


LH is metric .you know.
Herb


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Herb Stoops said:


> LH is metric .you know.
> Herb


Doh ! I should have known that


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Trying to establish where my parts will be on top and underneith. I pretty much copied my Incra top for miter to plate distance 


Starting to put lines down trying to figure out where the torsion box supports will run . It gets kind of tough to figure out so I'm going to wing it . I just made sure the supports do not interfere with the bolts that come threw for the miter slot or the lower router plate insert .


I seriously thought I'd get further than this but I got the sides on . I meant to biscuit the corners but forgot  .

I'm thinking of adding an MDF plate on the one end and biscuiting it to make the corners super strong . The other end where the router is gets a piece of hardwood attached so there's no sharp edges . If you look at the bolts on the fence rails, that's another thing I have to make sure the torsion boxes webs don't interfere with . 

I am going to start building interlocking pieces for the torsion box ribs inside tommorow , and instead of putting screws threw the top I'm going to use biscuits to attach them inside the top . I'm sure if I put blocking inside I can guide the biscuit jointer to where I want .
I couldn't find any weld bond glue so I bought this . Not my first choice but I'm hoping it's ok


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Having another thought . Instead of securing the torsion ribs to the underside of the top with screws from above or biscuits underneith , I'm thinking glue only and after the glue has set I'm going to brush in fibreglass resin . I'm not talking the cloth JUST the resin. I've used it on MDF in car audio and when the resin dries nothing's moving . It will also create a barrier from humidity so it's a win win . Once the inside is complete I'll screw and glue the 1/2" MDF bottom .

I definitely see why you guys recommend plywood over MDF for the torsion box ribs , as I'm pretty sure seeing as its laminated wood it will resist flexing a lot better than MDF would


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

just pocket hole screw it...


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Stick486 said:


> just pocket hole screw it...


I forgot about that idea and we discussed that . Geez I'm hating old age


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

because it's MDF you are still miles ahead by going through the top...

about those splinters yur whining about...
dam yur delicate...


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Stick486 said:


> because it's MDF you are still miles ahead by going through the top...
> 
> about those splinters yur whining about...
> dam yur delicate...


Yes slivers are one of my pet peeves . Right next to needles :fie:


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Cut some cross bracing from 3/4" plywood 



Installed my dado blade and got a snug fit 


Test fitting pieces 



All sections fit well . I am going to cut some other separate pieces to fill in the voids in the centre , although I don't think it's necessary . Now I have to take it apart and drill pocket holes in these cross pieces and add glue and screws 


Checking to see if the Incra DC is going to have proper clearance .Think it's going to ok but I never assembled it yet and I'm not sure if the ribs of the torsion box are going to be in the way . Hopefully it all works out


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## schnewj (Nov 18, 2013)

Rick,

Your making some real progress. Looks good so far.

Bill


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Guys I put a couple small pieces of wood together and tested that glue . I couldn't break it so although I'm a weldbond fan , I bought a whole gallon of this tight bond stuff .

So it's off to the garage to see if I can get the torsion bracing pocket holed and glued . I've never used a pocket hole system before and I tried my Kreg out earlier . I think it's safe to use inch and a quarter screws from what I see using 3/4" material on both pieces that connect together ? 
Hopefully the laminate is on tonight 

Also I checked out my template that I bought from woodpecker and I'm not all that impressed with the fit . I tried my Incra plate in the Incra table and it's a perfect fit , yet when I drop the plate in the MDF template I bought there's about a mm play both ways ? 
I believe there's a screw you turn on the Incra players to snug them up but I'd sooner have a better fit right off the hop .
I do have a template that I built but it needs a bit of a repair . But I'm thinking about using the template I bought and putting a small piece of aluminum tape around the bearing of the router but to change it a few thousands and make it tighter ? Done it in the past on guides and it helped but I'm not so sure about how well it will stay on the bearing


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

schnewj said:


> Rick,
> 
> Your making some real progress. Looks good so far.
> 
> Bill


Thanks Bill , it amazes me how time consuming things can be that I think should take very little time at all . I like to take my time though as I'd prefer not to get hurt either , or not design something right and have to start from scratch. 
This is the first time I've ever tried to interlock pieces of wood before and it went much better than expected .
The bottom half is going to be 1/2" MDF , that is why the bracing is a 1/2" lower than the bottom edge . Obviously the router table is upside down right now in case any one is wondering.

I'm going to put the white arborite on and cut the the dados out before I attach the bottom . This way in the event that I screw up I can abandon the and start over while not wasting a ton more glue and another piece of MDF .

I am going to kibosh the idea of using my Festool connected to its track to dado the slots for the miter and T-track , and instead build a template and have it clamped down and double sided taped in order to not have an incident. Hate to get this far and then make a boo boo


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## schnewj (Nov 18, 2013)

RainMan1 said:


> Guys I put a couple small pieces of wood together and tested that glue . I couldn't break it so although I'm a weldbond fan , I bought a whole gallon of this tight bond stuff .
> 
> So it's off to the garage to see if I can get the torsion bracing pocket holed and glued . I've never used a pocket hole system before and I tried my Kreg out earlier . I think it's safe to use inch and a quarter screws from what I see using 3/4" material on both pieces that connect together ?
> Hopefully the laminate is on tonight
> ...


First; Tightbond is an excellent glue. The Tightbond II that you bought has a limited open time . So, get things positioned and in place as soon as possible.

One caution about using a Kreg on 3/4 inch plywood. 3/4" is not 3/4" it is a smidge less. 1-1/4 (course thread) screws may just peek out of the plywood. You may have to adjust the jig to drill the pocket holes a little less then it calls for. Don't ask me how I know this. Oh, OK, I did it myself and almost ruined the blade in my good block plane when I cleaned up an edge. I had to file a couple of tips down.


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

I do have a template that I built but it needs a bit of a repair . But I'm thinking about using the template I bought and putting a small piece of aluminum tape around the bearing of the router but to change it a few thousands and make it tighter ? Done it in the past on guides and it helped but I'm not so sure about how well it will stay on the bearing[/QUOTE]

You can also use that tape inside the template to reduce the cut. I have done that before successfully when a template I made was a hair large.
The tape I used was the aluminum duct tape.(Metal Not cloth)

Herb


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

The joint's a 'jumping....

Following this thread with great interest......

Go to it, Rick.....


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## Ratbob (Apr 6, 2015)

At this rate you'll have that garage insulated in no time! Great work so far Rick . . . rootin' for you. Herb stole my thunder - I was going to suggest blue painters tape around the inside of the template.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

RainMan1 said:


> Cut some cross bracing from 3/4" plywood


so far so good...
you going to block/rib that one large open area???...
strongly suggest you support the plate's cut out rim... the rebated rim can't deal w/ abuse well, it's brittle and it will sag w/o support over time... that's the nature of MDF....


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Ok things have gone south . After screwing the ribs down I checked the top for flatness with my aluminum straight edge and she's got a wow in her . Turned it back over and backed the screws off and beat on a piece of wood with a hammer in the middle . Of course the top closest to the table saws casting is perfectly level , but it's warped at the plate location .
After beating it and adding more glue and leaving the screws backed off for a while I can still see a human hair of light under the straight edge in the middle area . 
I put a 80 pound Allen block in the middle on top of a piece of wood and will check in a few hours to see if it stabilizes it at all .

Was kinda hoping to laminate yet tonight , but I think I'll leave it alone and check the outcome in the morning


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

Did you check it for flat before you glued it to the ribs? Was it laying on a flat surface when you glued and screwed it? It might go the other way when the laminate goes on it and the glue drys. what kind of Hair? Red? Black?

Herb


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

a hair....
that's all moot when saw dust gets trapped between the work piece and the table...
are you sure your straight edge is straight???.... 
variances in sheet thickness... mic it...


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Herb Stoops said:


> Did you check it for flat before you glued it to the ribs? Was it laying on a flat surface when you glued and screwed it? It might go the other way when the laminate goes on it and the glue drys. what kind of Hair? Red? Black?
> 
> Herb


lol 

I never rechecked Herb . I'm going to see what it's like after I eat . I can see a sliver of light which I think isn't a good thing . Probably never a good thing with a router table .
If all else fails I'll buy another sheet of plywood as I've got lots of spare material .
I tried but can't get the camera to capture a picture of my dilema


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

I hope you don't have to start all over again. Don't throw it away, put some legs on it and use it as a shop table.

Herb


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Ok the thicker stock of paper I can get under this gap is .007" thick. I'm debating to put the arborite on and see what the outcome is . Should I abort or get the contact cement out? 

I'm assuming g the sides have to have the laminate on first l but at this point I don't really want to do the sides yer until I see the outcome of the top .
It's a shame as I can't add another layer on top because then when the table drops to the height of the table saws casting the bolts won't have any room to go threw . Otherwise I'd just screw another layer on


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## schnewj (Nov 18, 2013)

Rick,

If it's warped only at the plate location you may be OK. What I think your telling us is that it "unlevel" where the router plate is going. If this is the case is it out of level in one area or across the table? If it is localized, and where you will be cutting out for the plate, it may be alright. When you cut out for the plate the spot may go away. As long as you are coplanar on either side of the plate then it may be all good.

Bill


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

schnewj said:


> Rick,
> 
> If it's warped only at the plate location you may be OK. What I think your telling us is that it "unlevel" where the router plate is going. If this is the case is it out of level in one area or across the table? If it is localized, and where you will be cutting out for the plate, it may be alright. When you cut out for the plate the spot may go away. As long as you are coplanar on either side of the plate then it may be all good.
> 
> Bill


Bill it's uneven right about where the centre of the plate will be and to the right of the plate where the in -feed part will be . I have a feeling this is a right off . 
Crap happens but Im kinda choked because I truely believe if I had my weldbond glue instead of something I'm not familiar with this problem could have been averted .


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## woodknots (Mar 7, 2012)

Rick:
Is it possible that there is a variance in the rib(s) in that location? If it/they are slightly narrower across their width, that may have caused the sheet to be pulled slightly lower when you applied screws.
But, at 7 thou variance, I'm not sure I'd be that concerned. But that's just me. If you are concerned and aren't goint to be happy with it, then as someone said previously, make a shop table out of it.

Vince


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## schnewj (Nov 18, 2013)

RainMan1 said:


> Bill it's uneven right about where the centre of the plate will be and to the right of the plate where the in -feed part will be . I have a feeling this is a right off . Crap happens


Rick,

Don't panic, yet. Give some of the guys a chance to mull this over. It may be salvageable. There has to be a way to fix this. It isn't off that bad. Remember this is woodworking and not machine working. The gap may not be that big of a deal once you install the plate.

Back off for now and let some of the talent think it over.

Bill


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

schnewj said:


> Rick,
> 
> Don't panic, yet. Give some of the guys a chance to mull this over. It may be salvageable. There has to be a way to fix this. It isn't off that bad. Remember this is woodworking and not machine working. The gap may not be that big of a deal once you install the plate.
> 
> ...


Ya I'm thinking about backing off at this point . Probably for the best lol





vchiarelli said:


> Rick:
> Is it possible that there is a variance in the rib(s) in that location? If it/they are slightly narrower across their width, that may have caused the sheet to be pulled slightly lower when you applied screws.
> But, at 7 thou variance, I'm not sure I'd be that concerned. But that's just me. If you are concerned and aren't goint to be happy with it, then as someone said previously, make a shop table out of it.
> 
> Vince


Vince that's very possible . To make matters worse I didn't cut enough material to complete the ribs right off the bat and being the idiot I am I moved the fence . Try getting that exact depth again is tough and I'm sure I missed by a hair . I know not to move the fence either and was choked when I found I was short.
Live and learn I guess . I really thought this was going to take a few times to get it right . Have to go back to work so hopefully Saturday I can make another attempt at it


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## woodknots (Mar 7, 2012)

Sure, and by Saturday you may realize it's not that big a deal.
Remember, your not machining airplane parts where 300 lives are at stake. You're making a router table. Just a little perspective for you.

Vince


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

vchiarelli said:


> Sure, and by Saturday you may realize it's not that big a deal.
> Remember, your not machining airplane parts where 300 lives are at stake. You're making a router table. Just a little perspective for you.
> 
> Vince


Well as long as Stick doesn't find out when he gets up from his nap . Maybe he'll miss that post ?


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

I bought a whole extra gallon of this silly glue and of course never can never find my receipts . I'd sure like to take it back and try to find my weldbond glue again


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## schnewj (Nov 18, 2013)

RainMan1 said:


> Ya I'm thinking about backing off at this point . Probably for the best lol
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Rick,

Is the gap parallel to a rib or does it run perpendicular to the ribs? If it is parallel and follows a rib, then it may be possible to shim the sag out. 

Let my pray over this and see if I have any solutions in my bag of tricks.

Bill


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## woodknots (Mar 7, 2012)

Stick486 said:


> *a hair....
> that's all moot when saw dust gets trapped between the work piece and the table...*
> are you sure your straight edge is straight???....
> variances in sheet thickness... mic it...





RainMan1 said:


> Well as long as Stick doesn't find out when he gets up from his nap . Maybe he'll miss that post ?


Too late he's seen it:nerd: same advice though


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

I think I'm going to get a hammer and a chisel and see if I can break some of those braces apart and add some shims . Brb


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## schnewj (Nov 18, 2013)

RainMan1 said:


> Ya I'm thinking about backing off at this point . Probably for the best lol
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Rick,

Is the gap parallel to a rib or does it run perpendicular to the ribs? If it is parallel and follows a rib, then it may be possible to shim the sag out. 

Let my pray over this and see if I have any solutions in my bag of tricks.

Don't blame the glue...I've used just about all of them and the Tightbond glues are some of the best. The only differences between the three are II and III are water proof and have shorter open times then the original. If I remember, there was a comparison of the different glues and the II was comparable to the Weldbond for strength and open time. 

Bill


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

schnewj said:


> Rick,
> 
> Is the gap parallel to a rib or does it run perpendicular to the ribs? If it is parallel and follows a rib, then it may be possible to shim the sag out.
> 
> ...


Bill the ribs are Perpendicular to the downward slope . I'm sure it's a write off but I'm going to take one more look . Like I said I knew I'd screw this up . It's all part of learning though . Tempted to put the arborite on tonight and see how it looks . To bad I have to work Friday as I could use a cold one right about now


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## schnewj (Nov 18, 2013)

RainMan1 said:


> Bill the ribs are Perpendicular to the downward slope . I'm sure it's a write off but I'm going to take one more look . Like I said I knew I'd screw this up . It's all part of learning though . Tempted to put the arborite on tonight and see how it looks . To bad I have to work Friday as I could use a cold one right about now


Well, if it can't be salvaged then you are right it is part of the learning experience. All you have done is used some material. You know where the pitfalls are when you build the replacement.

However, with all of that being said, I agree with Vince. .007 is not that far off. If it is on the in-feed side it may not even make a difference. Remember, you have around 7 inches of plate on either side of the bit to keep the stock flat. As long as the outfeed doesn't hang up the material then who cares!

Bill


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## timbertailor (Oct 4, 2009)

Oops!!!!!


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

RainMan1 said:


> Well as long as Stick doesn't find out when he gets up from his nap . Maybe he'll miss that post ?


*I did...*



vchiarelli said:


> Too late he's seen it:nerd: same advice though


*I didn't see a thing...*



RainMan1 said:


> I think I'm going to get a hammer and a chisel and see if I can break some of those braces apart and add some shims . Brb


*don't EVEN think about it...
put the hammer and chisel down and step back...
hammering on it fractures it internally and separates the tempered surface from the core...*



RainMan1 said:


> Bill the ribs are Perpendicular to the downward slope . *I'm sure it's a write off but* I'm going to take one more look . Like I said I knew I'd *screw this up *. It's all part of learning though . Tempted to put the arboriite on tonight and see how it looks . To bad I have to work Friday as I could use a cold one right about now


*no it ain't...*



schnewj said:


> Well, if it can't be salvaged then you are right it is part of the learning experience. All you have done is used some material. You know where the pitfalls are when you build the replacement.
> 
> However, with all of that being said, *I agree with Vince. .007 is not that far off.* If it is on the in-feed side it may not even make a difference. Remember, you have around 7 inches of plate on either side of the bit to keep the stock flat. As long as the out feed doesn't hang up the material then who cares!
> 
> Bill


*it's regroupable...*



RainMan1 said:


> Ok the thicker stock of paper I can get under this gap is .007" thick. I*'m debating to put the arborite on and see what the outcome is* . Should I abort or get the contact cement out?
> 
> I'm assuming g the sides have to have the laminate on first l but at this point I don't really want to do the sides yer until I see the outcome of the top .
> It's a shame as I can't add another layer on top because then when the table drops to the height of the table saws casting the bolts won't have any room to go threw . *Otherwise I'd just screw another layer on*


*hold that thought about the mica and get the second layer notion out of your head...*

* now listen up...
finish the torsion... add that long rib you are missing on the left side of the table...
rim the cut out for the plate and make sure the long side rim webs connect back to the original web...
put the screws through the top into the webs...
now let it set for a few hours...

use your straight edge that you have guaranteed that it's straight by laying it on a quality level's edge... use the level to double check the top's gap or use the other edge of the straight edge to verify......
you get the idea... I hope... 
use what you feel is the straightest edge and mark out the depression...
paint the depressed area w/ smooth even layer of contact cement.... let it dry
verify flatness... remark as required and add another layer of contact cement...
repeat as often as necessary... as you do this the depressed area and gap will get smaller and smaller...
make sure you let each layer of contact cement thoroughly dry solid before adding the next layer... 
when satisfied add the mica...

NOTES...
MDF sucks when it comes to holding fasteners.. do not rely on it for a NY minuet... 
glue (not the contact cement) erodes the surface tension of MDF and you will have a failure later if you don't put the fasteners in correctly... as in through the top and consider pocket screws into the MDF as temporary......



*


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## vindaloo (May 30, 2009)

jw2170 said:


> the joint's a 'jumping....
> 
> Following this thread with great interest......
> 
> Go to it, rick.....


+1


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

Rick, Bill is on the right track. I can say it is NOT the glue. That is the only kind of glue I use for all my wood working and it would not cause the problem. Did you check the top before you installed the plywood. It is possible it was off before you put the ribs in. Is your top 2 layers laminated together? Did you glue it and screw it together? if so it could have happened then. 

Someone suggested earlier not to glue the tops together, ,just screw them. If you think about it then you could shim out any dip in the top between the layers at the center. 
If you cut out the hole like Bill suggested you still might be able to shim it between layers if you think it is a problem. 

You could always put a block in the middle and raise it off the table and clamp down the 4 corners and take that little bit out of the top over night.


Every project I have ever done I reach a point where I have to go into "save mode" and try and save it because something is not coming out right. I think you ought to do that here and not junk it. 
I would just go ahead and finish it up, and then if it was not right , build another, if it were me. .007" is nothing for woodworking.

Herb


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Thanks for the tips guys .
I just put the arborite on the top and had my millwright neighbour come over with his feeler gauges . 
There's a .0035" gap that starts from about the middle of where the plate will sit going towards the right side of the plate about another 8" s .

I think I'm going to live with it and try cutting out the hole for the plate, T channel and miter slot tommorow . Maybe there will be further mistakes , who knows . 
It's all a learning experience and I was hoping to ace it the first time but things go wrong sometimes . 
I have to learn to be a little more patient as I think that causes most of my grief . I knew when I didn't cut enough material for the cross members that I should not have moved my fence just in case I needed more . Never easy to get things exact again and I know better .
Also I think I kept my tolerances to tight when I dadoed the cross members and I should have marked them as some got reversed and caused distortions .


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Stick I wish I read your post before I put the arborite on but I went back to the garage and glued it as I didn't think I would be able to sleep tonight otherwise . 

I'm liking your idea of identifying the area and then doing a thin layer or two of contact cement . I think it would have worked because the problem is only .0035" 

Thanks for the ideas as there always appreciated 







Herb Stoops said:


> Rick, Bill is on the right track. I can say it is NOT the glue. That is the only kind of glue I use for all my wood working and it would not cause the problem. Did you check the top before you installed the plywood. It is possible it was off before you put the ribs in. Is your top 2 layers laminated together? Did you glue it and screw it together? if so it could have happened then.
> 
> Someone suggested earlier not to glue the tops together, ,just screw them. If you think about it then you could shim out any dip in the top between the layers at the center.
> If you cut out the hole like Bill suggested you still might be able to shim it between layers if you think it is a problem.
> ...


Thank you again for the post Herb . The top is only one layer , I was going to go with two originally but opted out after hearing about issues . I can't add a second layer at this point because I won't be able to get the machine screws threw the table saws fence rails as they will hit the bottom layer . There's not a lot of play there . Two layers could be done theoretically if the bottom layer had material removed in the proper locations for the bolt locations if it was still unassembled .

As mentioned I'm going to just finish what I got and see how it works . If all else fails I'll build another at a later date






timbertailor said:


> Oops!!!!!


Brad I bring it on myself . It's a pita but it won't be my first mistake . I had such high hopes too lol






schnewj said:


> Well, if it can't be salvaged then you are right it is part of the learning experience. All you have done is used some material. You know where the pitfalls are when you build the replacement.
> 
> However, with all of that being said, I agree with Vince. .007 is not that far off. If it is on the in-feed side it may not even make a difference. Remember, you have around 7 inches of plate on either side of the bit to keep the stock flat. As long as the outfeed doesn't hang up the material then who cares!
> 
> Bill


Bill you make some good points and I appreciate your input . I'm going forward and seeing what the outcome is . If it is bad enough I'll build another later on , but I was sure looking forward to building a fence


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

at .0035...
drive on...

don't forget the other ribs...


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Stick486 said:


> at .0035...
> drive on...
> 
> don't forget the other ribs...


10-4 

I'm going to see how the rest goes and if this doesn't end up in the dumpster I'm going to add more ribs . Was debating to dado a cross in that area ? (Probably take me forever )


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## schnewj (Nov 18, 2013)

Bill you make some good points and I appreciate your input . I'm going forward and seeing what the outcome is . If it is bad enough I'll build another later on , but I was sure looking forward to building a fence[/QUOTE]

So, what's stopping you from building the fence? Follow Sticks advice, finish the table and build the fence. If you decide the table needs redone, so what. Just reuse the fence on the new table top.

Remember, patience is the name of the game. Don't get your panties in a wad over it. You don't do woodworking because you have to, you do it to relax and have fun. Nobody is perfect and mistakes are made. How you react, proceed, and recover is what make you a better woodworker. So, slow down and figure out how bad it really is (it's not in this case), and then figure out a solution.

Bill


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Herb Stoops said:


> Rick, Bill is on the right track. I can say it is NOT the glue. That is the only kind of glue I use for all my wood working and it would not cause the problem. Did you check the top before you installed the plywood. It is possible it was off before you put the ribs in. Is your top 2 layers laminated together? Did you glue it and screw it together? if so it could have happened then.
> 
> Someone suggested earlier not to glue the tops together, ,just screw them. If you think about it then you could shim out any dip in the top between the layers at the center.
> If you cut out the hole like Bill suggested you still might be able to shim it between layers if you think it is a problem.
> ...


Ok I went with one layer and thought I was at a point of no return .Originally I wanted to do two layers and because the area is not removed where I need to gain access to the bolts that secure this router table to the table saws rails , I thought I was at a point of no return . 

It just occurred to me why couldn't I have made templates and removed material from above where I need access and then screw a new layer on top averting this issue altogether . It should have occurred to me when you mentioned two layers but I was still seeing red and couldn't correlate anything at that point .

And to make matters better after a put the arborite on if I do make a mistake all I need to do is peel all the arborite off , remove the screws and install another top . The could almost be a sacrificial top in a way . 

Ok the bad news is I have no more arborite left as I wrecked the sheet last night not cutting threw deep enough with my utility knife . So I had enough for one more go and it's on now , just has to have the edges routed . 
Should I try and remove that arborite before screwing down a new layer , as I'm hoping to just leave it and add a new layer . 

I'm not even sure that stuff comes off. Maybe I need a heat gun or something ? 
But I have no issues buying another sheet to do a new layer , just hoping I don't need to remove the layer I'm going secure to .

Sure wish I stayed in last night and thought this threw before doing further harm . I guess the good news is it's salvageable


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## timbertailor (Oct 4, 2009)

Last piece of advice since everything I told you seems to have fallen on deaf ears.

Leave the "screwing" to the pocket hole builders.

Glue is your friend. And, gives you a good excuse to break out those new clamps you bought.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

timbertailor said:


> Last piece of advice since everything I told you seems to have fallen on deaf ears.
> 
> Leave the screwing to the pocket hole builders.
> 
> Glue is your friend.


Gotcha ,as a matter of fact I'm going to air nail the new top around its perimeter to the original top. I'm sure if I screw it I'll be back to square one .


Guys I'm thinking of putting a bit of silicone between the new top and the old top where the base has that small dip so the new one doesn't sag in the future . That should work shouldn't it ?


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

Rick you can lay another layer of arborite on top of the one you have,if necessary, without trying to remove the first layer. 

I would lay out the hole and cut it out then straight edge it and you will find the edges of the hole to be flatter than the center. You should be down to less than .002 deviation.

Before you hand cut anymore laminate get a laminate knife,use the table saw, or router to cut with ,or you are going to mess up a lot of laminate. You could use the festool and straight edge too. 

No on the silicone.

Herb


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## Ratbob (Apr 6, 2015)

RainMan1 said:


> . . . It just occurred to me why couldn't I have made templates and removed material from above where I need access and then screw a new layer on top averting this issue altogether . . .


I had to do this on my extension so that I could get to the bolts Rick. Important safety tip - "Don't cross the streams", also make sure that you hog out enough clearance for tool access to the bolts.


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Rick, the first thing you need to learn is the old expression: "It's good enough for the kind of girls we go with." Don't worry about the tiny amount of cupping you have, it will make no difference while using the table. All that matters is that the plate is flush with the table on the leading edge or even a tiny bit lower. The trailing edge of your plate must be flush or a tiny bit higher than the table surface. As long as the wood doesn't catch on it while you are feeding it you will have no problems. We work with wood not metal and your table will be fine.

I suggest that you exchange the Titebond II for Titebond III. (Green label) It has a longer working time but sets up faster than II; it is also more water resistant. It will cost a bit more but I think you will love it; this is what I use all the time. Do not let your glue freeze or it is toast.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Mike said:


> Rick, the first thing you need to learn is the old expression: "It's good enough for the kind of girls we go with." Don't worry about the tiny amount of cupping you have, it will make no difference while using the table. All that matters is that the plate is flush with the table on the leading edge or even a tiny bit lower. The trailing edge of your plate must be flush or a tiny bit higher than the table surface. As long as the wood doesn't catch on it while you are feeding it you will have no problems. We work with wood not metal and your table will be fine.
> 
> I suggest that you exchange the Titebond II for Titebond III. (Green label) It has a longer working time but sets up faster than II; it is also more water resistant. It will cost a bit more but I think you will love it; this is what I use all the time. Do not let your glue freeze or it is toast.


I'm heading to Winsor plywood soon and see if I can exchange it Mike . Have a whole extra gallon and haven't touched yet





Herb Stoops said:


> Rick you can lay another layer of arborite on top of the one you have,if necessary, without trying to remove the first layer.
> 
> I would lay out the hole and cut it out then straight edge it and you will find the edges of the hole to be flatter than the center. You should be down to less than .002 deviation.
> 
> ...


Herb I'm basically adding a whole new 3/4" MDF top on top of the top that's already there . This things going to weigh a ton lol.
I gotta find me one of those laminate knives . I was going to use my track saw but it was late at night and I didn't want mr. Police officer visiting the garage


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Ok just realized something , my wooden sides only come up to the MDF so my idea is not great . If the wood came to the top I could have routed out the inner area for the TS bolts , but now all the weights on the MDF . 
Well I'm chucking this and starting over.

Ok another thought . Run this huge arse table down the table saw and cut the sides off , then I can put on new larger sides . May be easier just to build another lol


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Herb Stoops said:


> No on the silicone.
> 
> Herb


Herb why not silicon . I was just going to use it in the area that's low so when I put another 3/4" layer of MDF over top of it , it could fill that .0035" void so the top one doesn't start sagging in the future and following the curvature of the other layer below


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## schnewj (Nov 18, 2013)

RainMan1 said:


> Herb why not silicon . I was just going to use it in the area that's low so when I put another 3/4" layer of MDF over top of it , it could fill that .0035" void so the top one doesn't start sagging in the future and following the curvature of the other layer below


It could have the opposite affect. If you get too much between the two pieces it may lift the top piece. The result may be you eliminated a "sag" that is not going to be a problem, and end up with a hump that is!


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

RainMan1 said:


> Herb why not silicon . I was just going to use it in the area that's low so when I put another 3/4" layer of MDF over top of it , it could fill that .0035" void so the top one doesn't start sagging in the future and following the curvature of the other layer below


for crying out loud Rick... leave it alone...
you are setting yourself for problems....


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Stick486 said:


> for crying out loud Rick... leave it alone...
> you are setting yourself for problems....


Dang I wish I read your post before I got back from Winsor plywood . I just bought another frigging sheet of arborite . Incra router tables are looking really cheap at this point lol


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## Clouseau (Oct 12, 2009)

Masking tape is about .003 thick. You guys are making this entirely too difficult.
Dan


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Clouseau said:


> Masking tape is about .003 thick. You guys are making this entirely too difficult.
> Dan


Dan it just breaks my heart that it happened at all . I gotta try and fix this or make another one . I'm pretty much going back to plan "A"


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

RainMan1 said:


> Dan it just breaks my heart that it happened at all . I gotta try and fix this or make another one . I'm pretty much going back to plan "A"


Rick is this dip in the center that will be cut Out??? Cut it out, and the dip will be gone!!! Before you thow it away, or add another layer, or..... what ever, see what happens if you cut the hole. It might spring back too since there was no support there after you put the ribs in ,maybe the ribs caused a tension in the top and torqued it down where there was no support??? You don't know til you try,but if you make another one you will create a whole new set of unknown problems.

Herb

Silicone is not for woodworking adhesive.

Herb


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## schnewj (Nov 18, 2013)

Clouseau said:


> Masking tape is about .003 thick. You guys are making this entirely too difficult.
> Dan


Thank you, Dan. Are you listening, Rick? Leave it alone it is not that bad. I know you wanted it to be perfect, but nothing in Mother Natures World is perfect. The table is USABLE. 

Learn, move on, and avoid on the next torsion box project.

Bill


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Stick486 said:


> for crying out loud Rick... leave it alone...
> you are setting yourself for problems....


Give yourself a pat on the back , you called it . I trimmed off the excess and I have to say I like that arborite look , but then ...



....I proceeded to cut 3/4" off both sides on my table saw and it has to be flipped over to do that because it's to deep for my table saw or track saw . 
This is where things went south . Because the bottom is recessed for a 1/2" MDF final cover , as I went over the table saw the second round this table kept falling that 1/2" as it had no support . So I couldn't line the cuts up and wasn't understanding why . Looking back all I had to do was air nail a temporary runner in that bottom to guide it , but it's pretty much a paper weight now as Ive taken to much off already . Either that or go with double 3/4" sides ? Naw . 
Geez why is hind site always 20/20 .

It gets better , I looked at my remaining MDF and it's quite warped , so it's off to Home Depot for another sheet . Sheesh !


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Mike said:


> I suggest that you exchange the Titebond II for Titebond III. (Green label) It has a longer working time but sets up faster than II; it is also more water resistant. It will cost a bit more but I think you will love it; this is what I use all the time. Do not let your glue freeze or it is toast.


Thanks Mike I exchanged it this morning


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

It gets better , I looked at my remaining MDF and it's quite warped , so it's off to Home Depot for another sheet . Sheesh ![/QUOTE]

You can't be serious, Rick. Is this really happening or is this a joke?

Are you pulling our leg?

Herb


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Herb Stoops said:


> It gets better , I looked at my remaining MDF and it's quite warped , so it's off to Home Depot for another sheet . Sheesh !


You can't be serious, Rick. Is this really happening or is this a joke?

Are you pulling our leg?

Herb[/QUOTE]

Boy do I wish . I can't even walk in the garage right now Herb as I'm just mentally famished .
It's a real mess in there and I am going to have to spend a few days cleaning and organizing as I spend more time looking for tools than using them . I actually was concerned someone stole my track saw till I found it in the rubble lol .
I'm going to Home Depot Sunday and get more material and give it another shot .

Should have started the build thread when I was done , but I'll get it on the next run . 

I could have easily put my Incra top in my table saws extention but I wanted a router table installed that fit properly and one that I could call my own and have a conventional fence .
As soon as this ones complete I'll use it to build the cabinet for my Incra top . That was the plan anyways .
It's funny as that .0035" doesn't seem like much but when I seen the light under the straight edge it drove me nuts .

Anyways a big thanks to all you for your input and encouragement


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## Duane Bledsoe (Jan 6, 2013)

That Kreg router table I spent so much money on is looking better and better to me all the time.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Duane Bledsoe said:


> That Kreg router table I spent so much money on is looking better and better to me all the time.


Yes I'm not blaming you at all . As I mentioned I took Brads advice and already own an Incra top which I will make a cabinet for . I almost decided to modify it and put it in my table saw and buy a second one , but as I said I am determined to build one that fits properly and has a conventional style fence . 
I'm liking the fact that it's a learning experience . I didn't do it thinking I was saving money as the Incra tops are priced very affordable IMO 

I'll get this yet


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## Duane Bledsoe (Jan 6, 2013)

I was just commenting because I noticed you are going through all the frustrations and small problems that seem as large as mountains, all of which I was stressing and worrying over before I even started to build one, which is why I ultimately just bought one instead. Seeing that some of my fears now seem to have been well founded, I am glad I just went ahead and bought it. What is funny, I have already started to notice certain things that I wish were different, things that my design would have solved but this Kreg table does not. But I can also use this as a learning experience, albeit a really expensive one, and maybe even use the table itself to one day make the table I had originally wanted. But so far my experiences have been that you need a good router table to make a good router table, a good work bench to make a good work bench, and so on. I didn't have one already to make certain parts easier, or even just possible, but I guess at least now I'm set if I ever decide to attempt it.

By the way, I just noticed your post count. Have you seriously racked up 4000 posts in just a year? I've been here two years and don't have 200 yet.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Clouseau said:


> Masking tape is about .003 thick. You guys are making this entirely too difficult.
> Dan


what do toy mean you guys...


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## timbertailor (Oct 4, 2009)

RainMan1 said:


> It gets better , I looked at my remaining MDF and it's quite warped , so it's off to Home Depot for another sheet . Sheesh !


So much for its only redeeming quality.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

timbertailor said:


> So much for its only redeeming quality.


Yes I've never seen it happen this quickly . Seems a little strange IMO . Didn't help that I had it leaning on a wall but I've done that several times and it's been fine for the most part depending on the duration . It's been raining a lot , maybe the humidity was the issue? 
Maybe Baltic birch is the answer





Duane Bledsoe said:


> By the way, I just noticed your post count. Have you seriously racked up 4000 posts in just a year? I've been here two years and don't have 200 yet.


Wow I never noticed I passed 4000. This does raise a question though , I need a life . Hey wait , you guys are my family


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

timbertailor said:


> So much for its only redeeming quality.


it's from home desperate...
you expected more???....

Baltic is looking better all the time....
and phenolic should be making him shiver in ecstasy at any moment here...


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

RainMan1 said:


> Dang I wish I read your post before I got back from Winsor plywood . I just bought another frigging sheet of arborite . Incra router tables are looking really cheap at this point lol


so stop w/ the scatter gun approach and get that headless chicken on the dinner table..
how many posts have you read now after the fact???


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

RainMan1 said:


> Dan it just breaks my heart that it happened at all . I gotta try and fix this or make another one . I'm pretty much going back to plan "A"


as soon as you punch the cut out for the plate, make those dadoes for the tracks and you break the surface tension of the MDF things are gonna change... double thick, *which you have locked up in your brain for some friggin' reason *isn't gonna help you one iota...

man I detest MDF...
wheres Gibbs when ya need him???...


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Duane Bledsoe said:


> That Kreg router table I spent so much money on is looking better and better to me all the time.


My JessEm too...


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## Clouseau (Oct 12, 2009)

Making tape is .003--.004" thick. Card stock is about .010" think. Cereal boxes vary. Soda and beer cans vary. Those are my go to shims. Started using the masking tape over 30 years ago under golf grips. Three layers = about .021".
Dan


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Stick486 said:


> as soon as you punch the cut out for the plate, make those dadoes for the tracks and you break the surface tension of the MDF things are gonna change... double thick, *which you have locked up in your brain for some friggin' reason *isn't gonna help you one iota...
> 
> man I detest MDF...
> wheres Gibbs when ya need him???...


Well I could order a sheet of phenolic . It's special order so it may take a bit .
Stick some people have had success with MDF , but I am doubting it's reliability more and more . In theory though if there's bracing underneith you'd think MDF would be fine ? 
There is Baltic birch available in town , about the only local option


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Stick486 said:


> as soon as you punch the cut out for the plate, make those dadoes for the tracks and you break the surface tension of the MDF things are gonna change... double thick, *which you have locked up in your brain for some friggin' reason *isn't gonna help you one iota...
> 
> man I detest MDF...
> wheres Gibbs when ya need him???...


Stick I'm getting this feeling in my subconcious that you don't like MDF . Is this true? :lol:


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

You could still save this one, Rick, What is wrong with it except the dip? If it is the edges, you can always put harwood edges on it.

Herb


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Herb Stoops said:


> You could still save this one, Rick,
> 
> Herb


Thanks Herb but I want to move forward on another . I'm obviously an amateur and don't profess to be anything more , but with enough perseverance I'll build one that I'm happy with .

You guys certainly help as I wouldn't have the confidence to do this otherwise


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

RainMan1 said:


> Well maybe I'll order a sheet of phenolic . It's special order so it may take a bit .
> Stick some people have had success with MDF , but I am doubting it's reliability more and more .
> There is Baltic birch available in town


success (compared to what?) is a relative term...
this type of material has been around since the 1920's.. 
it came about as an answer to what to do about all that sawdust that was going to waste....

My 1st intro to it was in the late late '50's early '60's... since then I played, built, repaired and replaced it quite a bit... 
emphasis on replaced...
I learned that in the grand scheme of things it wasn't worth the effort... PR/sales departments be damned...
landfills are full of the stuff.. at least it breaks down easily into nothingness..

since you have the mica don't bother w/ the phenolic...
if you change over to Baltic make sure it's the real deal and not a knock off or birch plywood...
FWIW... that curved sheet of Baltic you found wasn't Baltic or it was a knock off....
BALTIC BIRCH PLYWOOD

your torsion box...
the one you did, it's way short on ribs....


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Well Stick I'm going to buy a sheet of BB on Saturday . It comes in 60"/60" which is perfect for my scenario as my tables 29" 1/8 wide . 
Should I do two layers of BB and add the torsion box , or is one layer ok . Seeing as I'll have enough for two layers I was thinking about doing two for more strength yet as the miter slot and T- channel goes down a 1/2" . Of course the torsion box will support it though .

I was going to buy it the first time around but it had a very slight bend in it so it kinda scared me off . I'm sure if I would have gone deeper in the stack I could have found a near perfectly flat one though . Again , the torsion box should bring into spec flatness wise but I'm kinda freaked out about using screws now and only want to use lots of glue


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Well
*that can be a deep subject...*

Stick I'm going to buy a sheet of BB on Saturday .
*good...*

It comes in 60"/60" which is perfect for my scenario as my tables 29" 1/8 wide .
*okay...*

Should I do two layers of BB
*NO!!!...*

and add the torsion box
*add the top to the torsion box...
the torsion box you have picture lacks at least three long webs on the left side and you need to frame the plate's opening...
for the box to function correctly you need to add a bottom to it...
¼'' BB would be made to order...
go for total support..*

or is one layer OK . 
*major okay...*

Seeing as I'll have enough for two layers
*save the extra...
besides.. you have a fence to build and may need torsion box ribs.....*

I was thinking about doing two for more strength
*almost zero gain....
let the torsion box do it's thing...*

yet as the miter slot and T- channel goes down a 1/2" . *Of course the torsion box will support it though *.
*correct...
and if need be you can always add underside ½'' thick blocking/cats if need be...*

I was going to buy it the first time around but it had a very slight bend in it so it kinda scared me off . 
*that MDF you got isn't doing so well either...
now is it???...*

I'm sure if I would have gone deeper in the stack I could have found a near perfectly flat one though . 
*very possible...*

Again , the torsion box should bring into spec flatness wise
*it's for strength...*

but I'm kinda freaked out about using screws now
*how so???...*

and only want to use lots of glue
*ummmmmmmm don't do it...
use screws w/ the glue...
AND DON'T EVEN CONSIDER DRYWALL SCREWS!!!...
besides it won't take many...
putting them in the rim of the top is very important...*

*NOTES:
DO NOT use your dado blade to cut the dadoes... use your router... 
BB will hold fasteners and threaded inserts extremely well...
use your old top for test cuts...
if you use inserts remember to install then slot down... 




*


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## john60 (Aug 30, 2014)

If you would insulate the shop the outside noise level will diminish greatly


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## timbertailor (Oct 4, 2009)

You will need two layers of the plywood if you are going to use any kind of track that will be mounted into the table.

Just glue.

Clamp it down to the table saw. No screws. Best side down.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

timbertailor said:


> You will need two layers of the plywood if you are going to use any kind of track that will be mounted into the table.
> 
> Just glue.
> 
> Clamp it down to the table saw. No screws. Best side down.


Wow Brad your assembly table rocks! 
I never thought of using the table saw as a reference for flatness . Great idea thanks 
Sometimes it's the obvious things I guy misses






john60 said:


> If you would insulate the shop the outside noise level will diminish greatly


You killing me here :lol:
I'd be happy just to accomplish building this router table


----------



## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Stick I know I'm going to somehow create a distortion using screws . I am not going to dado my torsion box ribs next time but install long pieces one direction and then put in several little pieces in between . And as you mentioned I will fill in the voids where I missed that webbing


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## timbertailor (Oct 4, 2009)

I thought I would share my assembly table for those who have not seen it.

Also, use a downcut spiral router bit when making the channels for the track and trimming the excess melamine\lamintate around the edges, should you decide to accept this mission.:laugh2:


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

timbertailor said:


> *You will need two layers* of the plywood if you are going to use any kind of track that will be mounted into the table.


the torsion box is the 1st layer..
use it as intended...
and to take full advantage of it Rick needs to put ¼'' on the bottom of the grid...
why waste...


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

RainMan1 said:


> *Stick I know I'm going to somehow create a distortion using screws .* I am not going to dado my torsion box ribs next time but install long pieces one direction and then put in several little pieces in between . And as you mentioned I will fill in the voids where I missed that webbing


horse hockey...

and the dado method you use is the better way...


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Put a rib under the grooves. No need for a second layer Brad. It can cause more problems than it solves. 

If you use screws just clamp the members tight together so that you don't get bridging. Also, drilling a clearance hole and a pilot hole, even if the pilot hole is only 3/16 to 1/4 deep, will prevent misalignment problems. Where screws cause problems is when they bridge across from one piece to the next or the point skates across the surface before it starts threading into the 2nd piece.

Another layer of ply across the bottom will make it stronger but the one in the photo looked plenty strong enough to me without it. Leaving the layer off the bottom makes it easy to attach legs or to a cabinet. I wouldn't be afraid to stack a couple hundred board feet of lumber on that table and a router table shouldn't need to be that strong unless you also plan to use it as a work table. Just a slight difference in opinion here about that part between Stick and I but I think we are totally agreed on the rest.


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## Roy Drake (Feb 10, 2014)

Rick: this has been a great learning experience for me since I know so little. Thanks for sharing and, as always, for the great humor/fun.

Now for a thought: Karen Carpenter sang a line in one of her beautiful songs about "...DEMANDING perfection from an imperfect world...". Just a thought from an continually reforming perfectionist!

Keep on truckin'. I'm into this.

Roy


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

Roy Drake said:


> Rick: this has been a great learning experience for me since I know so little. Thanks for sharing and, as always, for the great humor/fun.
> 
> Now for a thought: Karen Carpenter sang a line in one of her beautiful songs about "...DEMANDING perfection from an imperfect world...". Just a thought from an continually reforming perfectionist!
> 
> ...


As the world turns.
Herb


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

timbertailor said:


> I thought I would share my assembly table for those who have not seen it.
> 
> Also, use a downcut spiral router bit when making the channels for the track and trimming the excess melamine\lamintate around the edges, should you decide to accept this mission.:laugh2:


Ok I didn't know about this bit , I better pay attention 







Roy Drake said:


> Rick: this has been a great learning experience for me since I know so little. Thanks for sharing and, as always, for the great humor/fun.
> 
> Now for a thought: Karen Carpenter sang a line in one of her beautiful songs about "...DEMANDING perfection from an imperfect world...". Just a thought from an continually reforming perfectionist!
> 
> ...


Roy I'm glad your here as maybe by posting my build it may help others to avoid the same mistakes as I've made, or at least know what issues can arise . 
I have to keep in mind that the majority of the members here are seasoned pros and make this stuff look so dam easy .
I know I'm going to make mistakes and as you can see I don't mind showing the world lol .
But I'm having fun doing it so that's all that matters . A little progress would be nice though 






Cherryville Chuck said:


> Put a rib under the grooves. No need for a second layer Brad. It can cause more problems than it solves.
> 
> If you use screws just clamp the members tight together so that you don't get bridging. Also, drilling a clearance hole and a pilot hole, even if the pilot hole is only 3/16 to 1/4 deep, will prevent misalignment problems. Where screws cause problems is when they bridge across from one piece to the next or the point skates across the surface before it starts threading into the 2nd piece.
> 
> Another layer of ply across the bottom will make it stronger but the one in the photo looked plenty strong enough to me without it. Leaving the layer off the bottom makes it easy to attach legs or to a cabinet. I wouldn't be afraid to stack a couple hundred board feet of lumber on that table and a router table shouldn't need to be that strong unless you also plan to use it as a work table. Just a slight difference in opinion here about that part between Stick and I but I think we are totally agreed on the rest.


Good pointers Charles . I think that's a great idea of having the wood support underneith lining up with the channel to create a thicker area . (I'm not really opposed to going with two layers though) 

I have always wondered how wide apart those T-Channels should be for the fence . I was going to make them wide apart but there doesn't seem to be any real specs for them ?


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## timbertailor (Oct 4, 2009)

RainMan1 said:


> Ok I didn't know about this bit , I better pay attention



Melamine\laminate tends to chip and\or pull up using a standard router bit. The downcut spiral bit, as the name suggests, spins downward as it cuts, forcing the melamine against the surface and preventing chip out.

They are inexpensive ($15-$20US) and I suggest you get an upcut spiral bit in 1/4" at the same time. It helps you see what you are doing since it tends to pull the debris out of the channel as it cuts. Although....................you are a proud owner of a Festool, so it may not be as useful as it would be for others.:grin:


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## Ratbob (Apr 6, 2015)

RainMan1 said:


> ...I have always wondered how wide apart those T-Channels should be for the fence . I was going to make them wide apart but there doesn't seem to be any real specs for them ?


Look at it this way, the wider apart the two adjustment points, the finer the adjustment is at the bit per unit change.


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## PhilBa (Sep 25, 2014)

OK, I'm gonna say this because I feel it's worth saying. Sorry if it steps on toes, not my intent.

You don't need to get fancy on the table top. The more parts you have, the more likely there will be problems. Keep it simple. Use top quality parts. Frankly, I'd just start with a 3/4 BB top. If it sags, no huge loss. It's fast to get going and you get into the positive feedback loop. Perfection is often the enemy of good enough. Plus in this case it's the enemy of progress. I know this because I have had perfection paralysis many times.

My top is a sandwich of 3/4" BB with 1/4" hard board on either side. I wanted 1" BB but didn't find any at the time. Lots of coats of polyurethane on the bottom, formica laminate on the top. Solid and flat despite hanging a PC7518 and JessEm MRL-II from it (we're talking something like 30 lbs). I credit the BB for the flatness. The hardboard adds enough thickness to allow routed channels for T track and miter slots without cutting too far into the BB core.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

RainMan1 said:


> I have always wondered how wide apart those T-Channels should be for the fence . I was going to make them wide apart but there doesn't seem to be any real specs for them ?


There is no set distance unless you are buying a fence. In my opinion the wider the better. Remember that the best way to make fine adjustments is to only move one side of the fence. A longer fence makes finer adjustments possible.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

PhilBa said:


> Perfection is often the enemy of good enough.


This should be made into a sign that hangs on most of our shop walls. I've seen a lot of people over the years lose sight of the fact that a router table is a tool to do work with. It is not a Roentgen writing desk.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Thanks Guys I thought in theory that wider would help with more subtle changes if necessary , and you've confirmed it


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Ok one more question . I was going to say silly question but James says there no such thing as a silly question (other than one of my posts regarding chocolate ) .

I'm wondering if a guy should put arborite on both sides of a table ? After Stick mentioned surface tension , it got me thinking about having both the top and underside with arborite glued on as it would create a stronger surface tension resisting warping even more .
It's not like it's a lot of extra work .
Sorry Phil , I read your post and you make a great point regarding keeping it simple , but I'm still curious about this


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Once again I'll point out that your kitchen counter top only has it on one side. I know lots of people disagree with the idea that only one side is necessary but the kitchen counter top still only has it on one side. That is a fact and it's a fact anywhere laminate is used for counter tops.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> Once again I'll point out that your kitchen counter top only has it on one side. I know lots of people disagree with the idea that only one side is necessary but the kitchen counter top still only has it on one side. That is a fact and it's a fact anywhere laminate is used for counter tops.


I see your point but a router table has differant forces on it compared to a kitchen counter . Like a router in a lift for years on end .( my theory may not stand as my microwave is on my counter lol )
I'm sure I'm overthinking this Charles but the more I think about it I swore I read about this somewhere .
Maybe the reasoning was to make it impervious to moisture , who knows


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

no...


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## woodknots (Mar 7, 2012)

Rick:
In my humble opinion, the laminate on your kitchen counter top is for looks and nothing else. Don't over think it


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## Duane Bledsoe (Jan 6, 2013)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> Once again I'll point out that your kitchen counter top only has it on one side. I know lots of people disagree with the idea that only one side is necessary but the kitchen counter top still only has it on one side. That is a fact and it's a fact anywhere laminate is used for counter tops.


This seems to make sense when I read it, but honestly I've never seen a laminate counter top that remained flat. They all curve and dip in the middle, from front to back, especially where they cross 36" and wider base cabinets without middle supports. They remain flat enough to function in the kitchen where being dead flat means nothing, isn't needed, and won't be even noticed, but the amount of sag and bow I've seen in them, even the new ones off the shelf at Lowe's (sight lining the end of them), in my opinion it is unacceptible in a router table. I don't know if it is the use of particle board in them, laminate on only one side, inadequate support, or all of it together, but if I take laminate counter tops as an example when considering one or both sides being covered, then I'd actually be more convinced to double laminate instead of being convinced to do just one side only. Besides preventing moisture absorbsion, I think I can see the bottom laminate helping to resist sag by providing tension against it, seeing as how putting a curve across the bottom face would have the effect of trying tp stretch the laminate which is glued on, making it immobile. If it resists stretching then it would not let the substrate sag as much as if it had nothing on the bottom. Think of it like wearing your pants too tight. When you bend, they stretch and rip. If they are stout enough not to rip, then you can't bend. But if you just take them completely off, oh boy, how you can bend then!


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## fire65 (Oct 29, 2008)

Seriously 13 pages. IT IS A Router table. I built mine and never checked the wood, the deflection, the humidity, ect. Damn, cut it, glue it. screw it and lets move along. I mean, what the hell are you going to build with it?


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

fire65 said:


> Seriously 13 pages. IT IS A Router table. I built mine and never checked the wood, the deflection, the humidity, ect.


Clay I've seen some of your past work and your a pro though  





fire65 said:


> Damn, cut it, glue it. screw it and lets move along. I mean, what the hell are you going to build with it?


Your going to love this part the best , I don't really have anything to build as I got out of car audio a long time ago and don't really have any other interests other than building the cabinet for my Incra top lol. Maybe I can make some drawers for it that have finger joints !


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## fire65 (Oct 29, 2008)

RainMan1 said:


> Clay I've seen some of your past work and your a pro though
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well, Hell, come to Oklahoma and have beer. Stop driving yourself crazy over the little things.


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## Duane Bledsoe (Jan 6, 2013)

It's not as many pages if you reset your options to show more posts per page.


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

RainMan1 said:


> I see your point but a router table has differant forces on it compared to a kitchen counter . Like a router in a lift for years on end .( my theory may not stand as my microwave is on my counter lol )
> I'm sure I'm overthinking this Charles but the more I think about it I swore I read about this somewhere .
> Maybe the reasoning was to make it impervious to moisture , who knows


I think I saw that too, written by a laminate salesman.
Herb


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## timbertailor (Oct 4, 2009)

Laminating just about anything together is going to make it stronger. Just a fact and that is why you see it done on just about every work surface offered in the woodworking market.

Why do you think plywood is so strong and stable? Its just multiple thin layers of wood bonded together to its final thickness. Any attempt by one layer to expand or contract is countered by the layer next to it, preventing it from occurring, for the most part. That is why it is the material of choice for cabinet makers and why it is recommended to laminate two sheets together. If you insure the top sheet is flat when you glue it to the second sheet, it should remain that way for years to come, no matter the humidity level or change in it.


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Rick, get a passport. Fly to Windsor, ON. (you will like it, they have authentic Canuck food) Meet BrianS and cross into the strange world of the USA. (We have fantasy stores like Rockler and two Woodcraft's!) Just think, less than 50 minutes you will be at my place and you will build a great router table in one day. Reverse travel and find yourself at home happily making sawdust. The end.


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## Duane Bledsoe (Jan 6, 2013)

Now there's a deal if I ever did see it!


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Mike said:


> Rick, get a passport. Fly to Windsor, ON. (you will like it, they have authentic Canuck food) Meet BrianS and cross into the strange world of the USA. (We have fantasy stores like Rockler and two Woodcraft's!) Just think, less than 50 minutes you will be at my place and you will build a great router table in one day. Reverse travel and find yourself at home happily making sawdust. The end.


I'll bring the beer ! Can Clay and the others come ?


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Rick, this is what happened when James Wade visited from Australia. (James is standing in front of me) On the far right is Mike Bell from Texas.

Tell me when...


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Looked like a great time . Mike what are you 6'5" !


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

6'4" and about 100 lbs heavier in the photo than I am now.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Mike said:


> 6'4" and about 100 lbs heavier in the photo than I am now.


Dang I was going to say 6'4" the first time too . Looks like you could have been a line backer back in your day


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## Duane Bledsoe (Jan 6, 2013)

Wow, just reading the description made me try to remember what I was doing that Saturday. I'm sure it wasn't as fun as that, though. Heck, I could have been fishing and caught a 10 pound bass and I think I'd still have rather been with those guys!


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

RainMan1 said:


> I see your point but a router table has differant forces on it compared to a kitchen counter . Like a router in a lift for years on end .( my theory may not stand as my microwave is on my counter lol )


I disagree Rick. A kitchen counter is a work surface and so is your router table top. They use identical construction materials and very similar construction techniques. The major difference is the end use. Your microwave weighs at least as much as a router BTW.



> I'm sure I'm overthinking this Charles but the more I think about it I swore I read about this somewhere .


I agree, you are definitely overthinking this. See Mike's post. I think he agrees.



> Maybe the reasoning was to make it impervious to moisture , who knows


According to what I've read nothing impervious to moisture, not even epoxy. The in migration is just much slower, and so is the out migration.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> I disagree Rick. A kitchen counter is a work surface and so is your router table top. They use identical construction materials and very similar construction techniques. The major difference is the end use. Your microwave weighs at least as much as a router BTW.
> 
> 
> I agree, you are definitely overthinking this. See Mike's post. I think he agrees.
> ...


Charles I thought kitchen counters were partial board ? Close enough I guess .
And yes I realize a microwave is probably as heavy as a lift and 7518 motor . 
The weight dispersion is differant however , but close enough for what we're comparing I guess .

I'll get this right next build . Unfortunately the garage is to much of a mess to work in so I'm going to spend the weekend organizing . 
Will be nice to have some room to move again . At least it will make it more fun and not be such a hassle tripping on stuff all the time :|


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Rick, there is a reason most of my photo shoots are done on the driveway.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Duane Bledsoe said:


> This seems to make sense when I read it, but honestly I've never seen a laminate counter top that remained flat. They all curve and dip in the middle, from front to back, especially where they cross 36" and wider base cabinets without middle supports.


Exactly right. I built mine about 20 years ago and it is still good.



> I don't know if it is the use of particle board in them, laminate on only one side, inadequate support, or all of it together, but if I take laminate counter tops as an example when considering one or both sides being covered, then I'd actually be more convinced to double laminate instead of being convinced to do just one side only.


Inadequate support is your culprit. Double laminating will not fix that.

[Quote}Besides preventing moisture absorbsion, I think I can see the bottom laminate helping to resist sag by providing tension against it, seeing as how putting a curve across the bottom face would have the effect of trying tp stretch the laminate which is glued on, making it immobile.[/Quote]
Maybe if you used a ridgid glue to install the laminate. Contact cement is basically liquid rubber. It will stretch until the bend starts to get extreme so I can't see the extra layer of laminate providing extra support.

I think I remember Pat Warner (Quillman) saying on a thread like this one that the engineering below the table is far more important than the materials you are using. That is also my experience. If you put together a proper frame below the table then you don't need to use 2 layers of panel for he top or double laminate. If you guys absolutely feel that you will sleep better at night if you go that way then by all means do it. Just don't tell others that that is what you have to do to build a router table because I know from experience that that isn't so.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> Exactly right. I built mine about 20 years ago and it is still good.
> 
> 
> Inadequate support is your culprit. Double laminating will not fix that.
> ...


Maybe if you used a ridgid glue to install the laminate. Contact cement is basically liquid rubber. It will stretch until the bend starts to get extreme so I can't see the extra layer of laminate providing extra support.

I think I remember Pat Warner (Quillman) saying on a thread like this one that the engineering below the table is far more important than the materials you are using. That is also my experience. If you put together a proper frame below the table then you don't need to use 2 layers of panel for he top or double laminate. If you guys absolutely feel that you will sleep better at night if you go that way then by all means do it. Just don't tell others that that is what you have to do to build a router table because I know from experience that that isn't so.[/QUOTE]

What you say makes perfect sense . I also believe anything is only as good as its foundation . 
Timbertailer had a great idea with clamping my new table to my table saw to provide a flat reference . Wish I could proceed on another right now but the dang garage is in chaos


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## GerryR (May 15, 2009)

RainMan1 said:


> I forgot about that idea and we discussed that . Geez I'm hating old age


Old age isn't for sissies! The second thing to go is the memory.......I've already forgot the first!


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Holy Hanna; I go away for a few days and I miss the Start of Rick's RT!
:surprise:


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

DaninVan said:


> Holy Hanna; I go away for a few days and I miss the Start of Rick's RT!
> :surprise:


And it didn't end well . Couldn't get it within a Rickameter  

But Dan I'm doing a second attempt soon


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

RT-1
Rick-1



RainMan1 said:


> And it didn't end well . Couldn't get it within a Rickameter
> 
> But Dan I'm doing a second attempt soon


Thats the spirit!!
I see this ending well for you Rick!!


----------



## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

TwoSkies57 said:


> RT-1
> Rick-1
> 
> 
> ...


Well I may have to claim chapter 13 , but by god I'm going to get this built if it takes me 3 attempts and half the summer . I'm not going to be hung over next time either :no:


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## BrianS (Nov 7, 2004)

RainMan1 said:


> I'll bring the beer ! Can Clay and the others come ?


Rick, if you bring enough beer, EVERYONE is welcome. :lol:


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

BrianS said:


> Rick, if you bring enough beer, EVERYONE is welcome. :lol:


Well I'd consider it but this is quite a large forum lol . And although I'm an alchoholic I suspect a lot of you could still drink me under the table


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

BrianS said:


> Rick, if you bring enough beer, EVERYONE is welcome. :lol:


this get together gonna have to be held at the brewery...


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## schnewj (Nov 18, 2013)

Stick486 said:


> this get together gonna have to be held at the brewery...


Yup!


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Yeh, and it'll be _Canadian_ beer!!!


----------



## schnewj (Nov 18, 2013)

DaninVan said:


> Yeh, and it'll be _Canadian_ beer!!!


Molson's Golden?


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

schnewj said:


> Molson's Golden?


okay by me...


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

DaninVan said:


> Yeh, and it'll be _Canadian_ beer!!!


Ya isn't most of that states beer lite or something ?


----------



## JFPNCM (Dec 13, 2009)

RainMan1 said:


> Ya isn't most of that states beer lite or something ?


Perhaps in "most" but definitely not here in the Pacific NW where hopped up IPAs rain haha supreme.


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

Say ,Rick, I forgot to ask you what thickness of Plastic laminate did you get? There are 2 grades,i.e. thicknesses, countertop which is the thick stuff and the door and side panel p-lam which is thinner?

Herb


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## Stargate (Oct 2, 2014)

Herb Stoops said:


> Say ,Rick, I forgot to ask you what thickness of Plastic laminate did you get? There are 2 grades,i.e. thicknesses, countertop which is the thick stuff and the door and side panel p-lam which is thinner?
> 
> Herb


I'm interested in the answer to your question as well. Also, anyone have any idea where I could get some of that Micro Dot laminate here in Canada?


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Larry; have you tried these guys?
https://www.facebook.com/CountertopsUnlimited2

At the very least you'd be able to find the product name and cat. #.


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## Stargate (Oct 2, 2014)

DaninVan said:


> Larry; have you tried these guys?
> https://www.facebook.com/CountertopsUnlimited2
> 
> At the very least you'd be able to find the product name and cat. #.


Dan,
Thanks for the link. These guys are right here in my city. And when I looked at their website - Countertops Unlimited 2 | Kitchen & Bathroom Custom Countertops , I noticed that it was my younger brother that actually designed their website. My younger brother (design39Media.com - Website Design Chatham Ontario-Design39Media ) is a professional web designer and Microsoft IT Tech.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

I_ know_ it's in Chatham; that's why I posted it! 
Betcha they can get it for you, Larry.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Herb Stoops said:


> Say ,Rick, I forgot to ask you what thickness of Plastic laminate did you get? There are 2 grades,i.e. thicknesses, countertop which is the thick stuff and the door and side panel p-lam which is thinner?
> 
> Herb


Herb I had no idea there were differant versions , but the boss at Windsor plywood did mention it was what they sold for counter tops and I believe this stuff is quite thick . It certainly seemed like it when I tried to cut it .Its $50 for a sheet 4/8 . 
I will go and see them and ask them this morning to confirm , or put my calipers on it and get a measurement . 
It certainly seems very slippery which is what I'm liking about it . 

As we speak I'm almost debating to buy a sheet of phenolic ,as it's going to take me a good week to get my garage in order . 

Kinda kicking myself for buying the laminate now though . I already have tons of scraps from the other sheet if I use it for fences . But I was debating to use melamine for the fence faces regardless as maybe with my luck I would be out of spec flat wise with arborite on the fence faces because of the glue density.
Does anyone else use laminate for there fences or do you use melamine ? I realize laminate would be more robust but it's not that difficult to cut new pieces of melamine when needed


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

You're over-thinking this, Rick. 
Laminate comes in two grades, or rather, types, as Herb pointed out. One is not 'better' than the other; they're designed for different purposes. The POSTFORMING grade is thinner and allows the material to be formed into tight curves under heat and pressure.
That's how they are able to make the front edge profiles and the rear seamless transition to the vertical 4" backsplash. The countertop manufactures can't do that with the heavier grade.
For flat application use the heavier grade is easier to work with, and it's less prone to accidental damage...cracking, chipping etc.
It also is less likely to telegraph defects through to the surface and is also stronger in the sense that if something heavy is dropped on the completed top, fracturing of the laminate is less likely.

It's highly unlikely that a lumberyard even carries the postforming grade; why would they? Their losses to damaged material would be horrendous, and if a client wants a specific pattern/colour they'd need to bring it in anyway. All of the above is why they roll laminate into a tube and put edge protection on the exposed end (if they don't they need to have their knuckles rapped) for shipping or pickup by the customer.

Incidentally, referring back to that 'microdot' question, most of the less popular colours and patterns are stocked in the US and have to be ordered in (to Canadian suppliers) as clients request it, ie expect a wait...maybe a week to two weeks?


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Thanks Dan , I had no idea . I must say I'm a heck of a lot more knowledgeable now than I was a year ago about many things wood related . 
Wish I knew about pocket holes years ago . What a blessing that is some times


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

RainMan1 said:


> I will go and see them and ask them this morning to confirm , or put my calipers on it and get a measurement.


Why bother? It's not that important which one it is. Both types would work but as Dan pointed out, it is highly unlikely you would get the postform grade. You would know if it was as soon as you handled it.




> As we speak I'm almost debating to buy a sheet of phenolic ,as it's going to take me a good week to get my garage in order.


 I've never worked with it but I hear it is very hard on cutting tools and there really are no particular advantages to using it. 



> Kinda kicking myself for buying the laminate now though . I already have tons of scraps from the other sheet if I use it for fences . But I was debating to use melamine for the fence faces regardless as maybe with my luck I would be out of spec flat wise with arborite on the fence faces because of the glue density.
> Does anyone else use laminate for there fences or do you use melamine ? I realize laminate would be more robust but it's not that difficult to cut new pieces of melamine when needed


It really doesn't matter. If you are really worried about being flat if you use the arborite then get a can of spray glue to put them on with. Either type material will make faces and if you need to replace them it's a 20 minute or so job. If you really can't decide then flip a coin. More than once when I needed a router table quick I just used a straight piece of lumber with a cutout for the bit jigsawed into it. You are still over-thinking this. There are probably a thousand different combinations of possibilities for a router table (maybe way more) and all of them work. You aren't making parts for NASA so get on with it. If you come to a point where a decision has to be made and you are having trouble with it I suggest that you start flipping a coin. If there are more than 2 possibilities then write each one on a separate piece of paper and put the pieces in a ball cap, hold it over your head, stir them up, and then pick one. That one will be your solution.


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## Stargate (Oct 2, 2014)

RainMan1 said:


> Herb I had no idea there were differant versions , but the boss at Windsor plywood did mention it was what they sold for counter tops and I believe this stuff is quite thick . It certainly seemed like it when I tried to cut it .Its $50 for a sheet 4/8 .
> I will go and see them and ask them this morning to confirm , or put my calipers on it and get a measurement .
> It certainly seems very slippery which is what I'm liking about it .
> 
> ...


Rick, As far as I know laminate can be used on fences for routers.
*Oakwood Veneer *Company in Michigan - Wood Veneer: The Expert in Exotic Wood and Burl Veneer | Oakwood Veneer Company sells all kinds of wood laminates, as well as phenolic and other types of laminates. They have a YouTube channel with some excellent how to videos on applying different types of laminates here - https://goo.gl/rhqZz2 . Watch the recent videos on how to properly apply veneers to MDF and the differences between regular contact cement and gel contact cement.
Also, watch the videos by Allen Little - *AskWoodMan* from Texas - https://goo.gl/sD3pt8 . He has some very detailed videos on laminating his Baltic Birch router table and fences with laminate. I think you will like these videos and pick up some great ideas.

I'm trying to learn as much as I can about the different types of laminates, wood, phenolic, formica, arborite, melamine, etc and the proper glues/adhesives to use and how to properly do this.
Hope this helps you out somewhat.

Larry B


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> Why bother? It's not that important which one it is. Both types would work but as Dan pointed out, it is highly unlikely you would get the postform grade. You would know if it was as soon as you handled it.
> 
> 
> I've never worked with it but I hear it is very hard on cutting tools and there really are no particular advantages to using it.
> ...


 Charles ,glad you posted as I was going to order some phenolic today . I'll just go with the BB now . 
I know it sounds like I'm over thinking this yet again but I'm going to have a lot of excess laminate left over and it's obviously much more wear resistant than melamine so I was curious as to whether others have used it for a fence .
I'm liking your spray contact cement idea as that should keep the glue more consistent depth wise I suspect .

Hopefully I'm going to be able to sleep tonight as I missed work today because I couldn't fall asleep till 6:00 this morning stressing about this lol . 
As Stick would say I'm pretty delicate


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

Be sure to take note of the flatness of the BB top BEFORE the laminate goes on this time.

Herb


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

If you're doing the spray method, you should probably consider laying down a first coat on the MDF or whatever, let it dry completely, then lay down a 2nd coat before doing the glue coat on the laminate. MDF soaks up the solvent in the contact cement drying it out too quickly...ie glue starved. There's no downside to doing the two coat thing except taking longer, and in this Summer heat that's not even an issue! I heard you had 27C yesterday in Cranbrook (81F)...


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

DaninVan said:


> If you're doing the spray method, you should probably consider laying down a first coat on the MDF or whatever, let it dry completely, then lay down a 2nd coat before doing the glue coat on the laminate. MDF soaks up the solvent in the contact cement drying it out too quickly...ie glue starved. There's no downside to doing the two coat thing except taking longer, and in this Summer heat that's not even an issue! I heard you had 27C yesterday in Cranbrook (81F)...


Good to know , thanks Dan .


We're supposed to get to the high 30's by the weekend . Way to much for this guy. I suspect I won't even be able to work in my garage in the PM


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## Stargate (Oct 2, 2014)

DaninVan said:


> If you're doing the spray method, you should probably consider laying down a first coat on the MDF or whatever, let it dry completely, then lay down a 2nd coat before doing the glue coat on the laminate. MDF soaks up the solvent in the contact cement drying it out too quickly...ie glue starved. There's no downside to doing the two coat thing except taking longer, and in this Summer heat that's not even an issue! I heard you had 27C yesterday in Cranbrook (81F)...


Dan, this sounds like good advice re: the double coat of contact cement. I hope Rick found the video links I posted on applying laminate to be of some help.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Larry; if you _don't_ do it chances are everything will be fine; if you _do_ do it it's guaranteed! 
My utility trailer has two safety chains, and I _do_ connect them both... 
Sometimes OCD is a good thing, eh?


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Stargate said:


> Dan, this sounds like good advice re: the double coat of contact cement. I hope Rick found the video links I posted on applying laminate to be of some help.


Thanks Larry I'll check those links out tonight


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## twmv86 (Oct 14, 2018)

RainMan 2.0 said:


> This is a router table to replace my table saws factory extention .
> 
> Guys and Gals I did my first cut . A full sheet of 3/4" MDF is to much for this old man to handle so I had them cut it in half with there panel saw . This concerned me so I had him mark his cut so I could push the factory cut threw my table saw in order to hopefully end up with the top being square .
> After calibrating my fence with a dial gauge for zero runout , I end up with a discrepancy .
> ...



@RainMan 2.0 i suspect sub zero temps in your shop caused this error. perhaps some method of temperature control is needed


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## twmv86 (Oct 14, 2018)

Herb Stoops said:


> Did you check it for flat before you glued it to the ribs? Was it laying on a flat surface when you glued and screwed it? It might go the other way when the laminate goes on it and the glue drys. what kind of Hair? Red? Black?
> 
> Herb


i am enjoying this thread waaaay too much. i feel guilty


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

twmv86 said:


> i am enjoying this thread waaaay too much. i feel guilty


You dug up an old thread there lol . The one project I dam near completed


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## twmv86 (Oct 14, 2018)

RainMan 2.0 said:


> You dug up an old thread there lol . The one project I dam near completed


i bought a single piece 24x32 of phenolic coated plywood and am going to make a split fence and did a search and lo and behold this thread came up. shouldnt be hard to make a fence. i was just looking for different ideas. i have a couple ways i might go. its my first fence. i just hope there arent any hairs under it


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

twmv86 said:


> i bought a single piece 24x32 of phenolic coated plywood and am going to make a split fence and did a search and lo and behold this thread came up. shouldnt be hard to make a fence. i was just looking for different ideas. i have a couple ways i might go. its my first fence. i just hope there arent any hairs under it


My fence is in this thread at post #3. Vince posted a picture of his not long ago and his is almost identical. Takes about 3-4 hours to build at most. https://www.routerforums.com/table-mounted-routing/87746-router-table-fence.html


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## twmv86 (Oct 14, 2018)

@RainMan 2.0
So did you make a fence or use an incra? I think i remember seeing in other thread you had an incra lift. I’m starting to lean towards an incra lift on the woodpecker top i got Christmas and use their superfence. I can make aux fences for the router table and miter gauge with the phenolic. 

Did you ever get the rickameter calibrated?


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

I’ve got it all , Incra V2 lift , Incra fences , table etc . I’m just waiting to insulate the garage and then I was going to build a base . 
I should mention I don’t like to rush things . I’ve been renovating my bathroom for close too 11 years


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## twmv86 (Oct 14, 2018)

i just watched a video on making dovetails on a LS. several sliding tapes you line up. i'd never be set up right. cut the blue numbers then the red. im colorblind. too many ways for me to mess that up. im gonna limp along on my old table til august then get a superfence and micro positioner. thats more my speed. and if i can swing it an incra mast r lift 2. heres my old jalopy of a fence. Didnt know what a t track was when i got it 25+ years ago.
why would you jump out of a perfectly good airplane btw?


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## ger21 (Feb 10, 2019)

Herb Stoops said:


> Say ,Rick, I forgot to ask you what thickness of Plastic laminate did you get? There are 2 grades,i.e. thicknesses, countertop which is the thick stuff and the door and side panel p-lam which is thinner?
> 
> Herb



In case anyone is interested. I work in a commercial cabinet shop, and order about $75,000 in laminate a year. So I know a little about laminate.



Things are a bit different than they were in 2015. :smile:
There used to be 3 common grades of laminate, and there still are from some manufacturers. (There are actually a lot of other specialty grades)


Vertical Grade, which is about 0.028" thick.
Post Forming Grade, which is about 0.038" thick. (Used to be mainly used for countertops with bullnose edges and integral backsplashes, where it's bent using high heat.)

And Horizontal Grade (or Countertop Grade), which is about .05-.06" thick.


These days, most manufacturers are no longer making the thicker Horizontal grade. Stock thicknesses are now Vertical Grade, or Postforming Grade.
Postforming grade is what you would use for a router table.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

ger21 said:


> In case anyone is interested. I work in a commercial cabinet shop, and order about $75,000 in laminate a year. So I know a little about laminate.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That’s good to know Gerry .I had no idea ,and I’ll definitely pay attention next time I buy some ,as I suspect I bought the thin gauge laminate last go around


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

Do they have any with an insulation glued on to the back?
Just wondering,
Herb


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## twmv86 (Oct 14, 2018)

RainMan 2.0 said:


> I’ve got it all , Incra V2 lift , Incra fences , table etc . I’m just waiting to insulate the garage and then I was going to build a base .
> I should mention I don’t like to rush things . I’ve been renovating my bathroom for close too 11 years



did you get the wonder fence with the dust collection on the end of the fence? was wondering how well that works. i know its better from below with their clean sweep rings. am getting a small wad of cash in august so til then i can vacillate between the stand alone wonder fence (no jig) and the wood pecker super fence. the split fence jointing on the wonder fence looks fantastic with the 2 wedges.
is this really your garage?


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

twmv86 said:


> did you get the wonder fence with the dust collection on the end of the fence? was wondering how well that works. i know its better from below with their clean sweep rings. am getting a small wad of cash in august so til then i can vacillate between the stand alone wonder fence (no jig) and the wood pecker super fence. the split fence jointing on the wonder fence looks fantastic with the 2 wedges.
> is this really your garage?


I think I bought the other fence and was going to add that one . It was about three years ago when I bought all this stuff and it’s still in the boxes as I never assembled it . 
If I could do it all over again I’d scratch build everything,well except for a lift


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## twmv86 (Oct 14, 2018)

RainMan 2.0 said:


> I think I bought the other fence and was going to add that one . It was about three years ago when I bought all this stuff and it’s still in the boxes as I never assembled it .
> If I could do it all over again I’d scratch build everything,well except for a lift


i got a wp top & plate for the 1617. getting the lift that will take the bosch and the 7518 is the goal but i need to much other stuff and the lift costs the most of things im thinking of getting. it'll have to wait til next year. ive always wanted to try making a horizontal router. i can use the wp plate for that when i get a lift.


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