# First joints with Incra LS



## maggs (Jun 17, 2011)

I finally got around to the first project using my new LS positioner. It's a jewellery box for my daughter and it turned out quite well.

The only real issue with the box joints was that they were not as tight as I'd like. I followed Incra's demo video where they cut through then reverse out of the cut. Next time I'll cut through then lift the job out and see if that helps. I'm using the correct Whiteside 10mm bit for the template so it should be cutting a closer fit. I overcame it by using 2 coats of glue and you can't see any gaps.

The box is made from Tasmanian Oak and finished with Feast Watson finishing oil. The trays and bottom storage area are lined with red velvet covered 3mm ply inserts that can be removed if needed to clean them. The tray is a piston fit and I don't know how this will work over time with humidity. The top and bottom panels are floating in rebates.

I used plain butt hinges but next time I'm going to try some SmartHinges that will hopefully arrive soon from the UK. They're expensive hinges but they look reayly good and I get to use the router to install them :lazy2:

Overall, the Incra positioner is a joy to use. It really makes using the router table so quick and accurate.
Steve


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## JI808 (Aug 7, 2013)

Nice work.


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## cagenuts (May 8, 2010)

Well done!


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

I am sure your daughter will love it, Steve.

How did you find the Tasmanian Oak to work with?


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## Jim V (Oct 1, 2012)

Nice job! You might check out the hinges of Brusso Hardware. They make the same style hinges. They are a US company. (Brusso.com) We use them on high end TV cabinetry. Fast delivery and they also sell router templets for their hinges.
Jim V


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## dick in ia (Jul 23, 2007)

The joints look good to me ---and the box looks great. It will be cherished.


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## billyjim (Feb 11, 2012)

The joints look good. Great job.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

That Steve is a first class job, just lacking a lid restraint.


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## Botelho007 (Sep 23, 2012)

Nice work.
Nice box.


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## WurliTzerwilly (Jun 9, 2013)

maggs said:


> I finally got around to the first project using my new LS positioner. It's a jewellery box for my daughter and it turned out quite well.
> 
> The only real issue with the box joints was that they were not as tight as I'd like. I followed Incra's demo video where they cut through then reverse out of the cut. Next time I'll cut through then lift the job out and see if that helps. I'm using the correct Whiteside 10mm bit for the template so it should be cutting a closer fit. I overcame it by using 2 coats of glue and you can't see any gaps.
> 
> ...


Nice work Steve.

I have the LS positioner and wonder fence and I'm looking forward to making things like that. Some of the double dovetails on the video look interesting. I hope to give them a go too.


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## curiousgeorge (Nov 6, 2006)

Great job on the box, Steve. There is always a learning curve on any new tool and you will find that each use improves your prowess with the tool. Although I don't see any room for improvement on this project. I am sure this will become a family heirloom to be cherished for years to come. Just be sure to sign and date it on the bottom for future generations to marvel at.


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## maggs (Jun 17, 2011)

jw2170 said:


> I am sure your daughter will love it, Steve.
> 
> How did you find the Tasmanian Oak to work with?


Hi James, Tas. Oak can be a little bit splitty along the grain especially when chiselling out hinges with the grain. I found that out the hard way. Other than that it works very nicely. It dressed well even though my thicknesser blades need a sharpen. It's a quite bland looking timber so it needs a bit of bling around it to make it interesting. the box joints do that I think. It sands well and I went to 600 grit then used about 5 coats of finishing oil and it is silky smooth.

Steve


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## maggs (Jun 17, 2011)

harrysin said:


> That Steve is a first class job, just lacking a lid restraint.


Hi Harry, I'm still thinking about how I can do that. I painted myself into a bit of a corner with this issue. I've got little room to do anything now. That's one of the reasons I'm going to use SmartHinges on the next one.

If anyone has a suggestion how I could fit some sort of restraint I'd love to hear it.

steve


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## maggs (Jun 17, 2011)

WurliTzerwilly said:


> Nice work Steve.
> 
> I have the LS positioner and wonder fence and I'm looking forward to making things like that. Some of the double dovetails on the video look interesting. I hope to give them a go too.


Hi Alan, I started with box joints as a test but I think the dovetails won't be much more difficult. Just a couple more cuts. Personally I prefer box joints or splined mitre joints on small boxes. IMO dovetails can get a bit busy looking unless it's a bigger area.

My next attempt may be a slightly bigger box with a drawer and that will have dovetails for sure. I'll also make a set of plans next time. This one was one of those dream it up as you go along jobs and that does have drawbacks as I found out.

Steve


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## WurliTzerwilly (Jun 9, 2013)

maggs said:


> Hi Alan, I started with box joints as a test but I think the dovetails won't be much more difficult. Just a couple more cuts. Personally I prefer box joints or splined mitre joints on small boxes. IMO dovetails can get a bit busy looking unless it's a bigger area.
> 
> My next attempt may be a slightly bigger box with a drawer and that will have dovetails for sure. I'll also make a set of plans next time. This one was one of those dream it up as you go along jobs and that does have drawbacks as I found out.
> 
> Steve


Well you certainly got the hang of it real fast. 

I agree, the dovetails can look too busy on smaller objects. I have it in mind to "show off" with the double dovetails, which will be a larger object, but I haven't decided what it will be yet. I have it in mind to use Mahogany and Sapele, to make the joints contrast. Hopefully it will be quite pretty.


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## maggs (Jun 17, 2011)

WurliTzerwilly said:


> Well you certainly got the hang of it real fast.
> 
> I agree, the dovetails can look too busy on smaller objects. I have it in mind to "show off" with the double dovetails, which will be a larger object, but I haven't decided what it will be yet. I have it in mind to use Mahogany and Sapele, to make the joints contrast. Hopefully it will be quite pretty.


I almost feel guilty about how easy it was to do. A bit like back in school and cheating on a test. Once you center the bit on the job width, set the height a bit slightly more than the timber thickness and slipping in the template. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised how easy it really is.

Steve


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

In regard to that Whiteside bit, I think that I have read on this forume somewherthat some of them aren't just exactly right for the LS system. I have a set of bits that I bought from Incra and box joints made with a bit from the set are tight. You might want to talk to Mark Mueller about the issue, but what you did to remedy the issue looks like it worked just fine to me and who am I to give advise to you, looks like you know your way around a woodworking shop. Nice job, and like you, I am very happy with the Incra jig and/or the LS system.

Jerry


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## maggs (Jun 17, 2011)

Jerry Bowen said:


> In regard to that Whiteside bit, I think that I have read on this forume somewherthat some of them aren't just exactly right for the LS system. I have a set of bits that I bought from Incra and box joints made with a bit from the set are tight. You might want to talk to Mark Mueller about the issue, but what you did to remedy the issue looks like it worked just fine to me and who am I to give advise to you, looks like you know your way around a woodworking shop. Nice job, and like you, I am very happy with the Incra jig and/or the LS system.
> 
> Jerry


I put on my metalwork hat and used a Mitutoyo metric micrometer and the 10mm bit came in at 10.1mm. The bit is from a 6 piece set made and marked by Whireside as "for Incra metric system jigs".

I would have thought it would be exactly 10mm or maybe a whisker under. In the real world a 10.1mm bit will cut slightly bigger than it's actual diameter anyway. On the other hand you don't want the joints too tight either as all the glue will get squeezed out. In my mind they should push together with a small amount of pressure. Mine fitted together without any force and would fall apart if not held.

It's not a deal breaker and it may well be me doing something wrong. Either way I'd like to get to the bottom of it. I'm a bit OCD about joint fitment. I'll do some more test joints using different methods and I'll tighten up the slide mechanism until it's just moveable and see if that helps.

It's also possible my router has a bit of runout too. Given it's a 30+ year old Hitachi TR12 it's even likely. Time to get the dial indicator out and see.
Just measured collet runout at 0.04mm or 0.0015" so that's not the problem.

Steve


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## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

maggs said:


> I put on my metalwork hat and used a Mitutoyo metric micrometer and the 10mm bit came in at 10.1mm. The bit is from a 6 piece set made and marked by Whireside as "for Incra metric system jigs".
> 
> I would have thought it would be exactly 10mm or maybe a whisker under. In the real world a 10.1mm bit will cut slightly bigger than it's actual diameter anyway. On the other hand you don't want the joints too tight either as all the glue will get squeezed out. In my mind they should push together with a small amount of pressure. Mine fitted together without any force and would fall apart if not held.
> 
> ...


I have used MLCS bits that measured .005" under size and hand to pound the joints into submission. My Whiteside bit is a couple of thousandths over 3/8" and the joints fit well. Haven't tried the metric version of the INcra so can't really speak to it!


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## maggs (Jun 17, 2011)

Dmeadows said:


> I have used MLCS bits that measured .005" under size and hand to pound the joints into submission. My Whiteside bit is a couple of thousandths over 3/8" and the joints fit well. Haven't tried the metric version of the INcra so can't really speak to it!


i sent an email request to Whireside asking if the 10.1 mm size is within their tolerance for this bit. I will post the result when it's on hand.

Steve


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## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

Steve, I'll be interested to see their answer!


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## maggs (Jun 17, 2011)

I just measured everything that is connected with the cutting process and I think I have a possible answer. There is no single error large enough to cause the oversize cuts but it may well be that enough small ones can add up.

I measured the Wonder Fence width at the top where the sled runs and the in-feed fence is 0.1 mm (.004") narrower than the out-feed fence. Seems they weren't cut from the same piece or batch of extrusion. The only way to fix it will be to use some sort of shim on the in-feed fence or sand down to out-feed fence to match the other. I'm not too keen on sanding off the gold anodizing so I'll work on some way to shim the in-feed thickness on the back edge. .004" doesn't sound like much but, if I adjust the sled on the in-feed for zero play when you hit the out-feed fence it jams up and that's right in the middle of the cut.

Collet runout = .0015"
Bit oversize = .004"
Sled play = .004" (difference between in-feed and out-feed thickness)

That's almost .010" so I need to reduce at least one of them. The likely candidate is the Wonder Fence thickness. If I can find a piece of acrylic sheet or some sort of tape .004" thick somewhere I'll give it a shot.

It's a bit annoying to have bugger around fixing stuff that is supposed to be best in class but I won't be happy till it's right.

steve


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## maggs (Jun 17, 2011)

I have come to the conclusion that the router bit is simply too big. I made some very precise test cuts with the 10 mm Whiteside bit and it cuts a 10.1 mm slot as expected and when used on the positioner to cut box joints the tails are 9.8 and the pins 10.1 and this makes a loose joints. I guess I'll have to take my micrometer around some stores and see if I can find a 10 mm bit that is actually 10 mm or slightly less. Not happy.

The other 6 mm straight bit in the Whiteside/Incra set measures in at 6.002 mm which is what I consider an acceptable tolerance.

steve


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

maggs said:


> Hi Harry, I'm still thinking about how I can do that. I painted myself into a bit of a corner with this issue. I've got little room to do anything now. That's one of the reasons I'm going to use SmartHinges on the next one.
> 
> If anyone has a suggestion how I could fit some sort of restraint I'd love to hear it.
> 
> steve


Here are the various methods that I've used over the years. The first two shots show hinges which only open a little over 90°, then chains followed by barrel hinges etc.


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## maggs (Jun 17, 2011)

harrysin said:


> Here are the various methods that I've used over the years. The first two shots show hinges which only open a little over 90°, then chains followed by barrel hinges etc.


Thanks Harry. I like the chain idea but because I have a removable tray, the only place I can attach it is to the tray itself and that's not going to work very well if someone wants to remove the tray to get to the underneath storage area. I could make the chains so they can be unhooked easily. This is what happens when you don't have a plan. How does that saying go? If you fail to plan your plan will fail!

Steve


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

maggs said:


> Thanks Harry. I like the chain idea but because I have a removable tray, the only place I can attach it is to the tray itself and that's not going to work very well if someone wants to remove the tray to get to the underneath storage area. I could make the chains so they can be unhooked easily. This is what happens when you don't have a plan. How does that saying go? If you fail to plan your plan will fail!
> 
> Steve


The chances are that if the problem was mine, I'd more than likely plane the edges of the top and bottom to remove the hinge rebates, also reduce the height of the tray, all using the ski mounted router as shown. This would be followed by drilling holes for the barrel hinges then taping the top to the bottom and rout a 45° V cut along the rear joint after which it's just a case of fitting the barrel hinges.
This may sound long winded but I doubt that it would take an hour. All problems have a solution, and because as I've grown older I tend to make lots of mistakes but I have never had to start from scratch, my "solving problem" skills have at least kept up with my mistakes!


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## maggs (Jun 17, 2011)

harrysin said:


> The chances are that if the problem was mine, I'd more than likely plane the edges of the top and bottom to remove the hinge rebates, also reduce the height of the tray, all using the ski mounted router as shown. This would be followed by drilling holes for the barrel hinges then taping the top to the bottom and rout a 45° V cut along the rear joint after which it's just a case of fitting the barrel hinges.
> This may sound long winded but I doubt that it would take an hour. All problems have a solution, and because as I've grown older I tend to make lots of mistakes but I have never had to start from scratch, my "solving problem" skills have at least kept up with my mistakes!


I agree it is the proper solution to just replace the butt hinges with barrel or other stopped type hinges. I was looking a barrel hinges on a site the other day and the smallest diameter I could see was 10 mm. Being my material is only 12 mm that would only leave 1 mm each side. I'm assuming the size is the diameter of the barrel.

Steve


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Here is a start Steve, they start at just 5mm, I don't know in which state you live. I think that I've also had them from McJing tools in Sydney but I couldn't get into their web site today.
8pcs Hidden Hinge Invisible Hinge Barrel Concealed Hinge 8mm Brass | eBay

Catalogue - Cabinet Fittings - Hinges

Brass Concealed Hinges : CARBA-TEC


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## maggs (Jun 17, 2011)

harrysin said:


> Here is a start Steve, they start at just 5mm, I don't know in which state you live. I think that I've also had them from McJing tools in Sydney but I couldn't get into their web site today.
> 8pcs Hidden Hinge Invisible Hinge Barrel Concealed Hinge 8mm Brass | eBay
> 
> Catalogue - Cabinet Fittings - Hinges
> ...


Thanks Harry, those 4 pair on Ebay look like the go. The price is sure ok. I'll get some for the next boxes. I think 8mm into 12mm sides should be ok.

I've been trying today to hunt down a 10mm straight bit without too much joy. Most that I phoned couldn't be bothered to measure them for me before I part with the cash. So off I went to my local hardware store and got a $13.00 Supacut Chinese bit. Got home and did a test cut and it's 9.53mm. I now have 4 10mm bits and none of them are close enough to 10mm to use for box joints on the Incra. The hunt goes on...

Steve


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Steve, I've just measured three of my 10mm bits and the result is, 10.12mm, 10.06mm and 9.95mm.
Because CARBITOOL lists 10mm straight bits as the same as 25/64", which of course is not an exact equivalent, I have just emailed them for an explanation and shall be surprised if I don't receive an answer tomorrow, I've dealt with them in the past and have been happy with their service and communication. Keep tuned-in!


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## maggs (Jun 17, 2011)

Harry, I have suspected this same thing myself. I didn't mention it because I don't have any proof yet. Seems like either the manufacturers and/or the retailers think woodies only need something near enough.

I happen to have a lot of milling bits both metric and imperial sizes and I measured a whole bunch of them today as I was starting to think I was going crazy. They were all within .02mm of the stated size as you would expect. Most were less than that, close enough to call exact. There's not valid reason that router bits shouldn't be the same but it's obvious they're not.

Steve


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

I agree Steve, all my end mills and slot cutters are spot on. As a matter of interest can't you compensate with the setting of the Incra jig like it can be with simple jigs like the OakPark ones that I use and the homemade ones before that. Take a look at shot #1 in this pdf, the position of the OakPark spacer jig can be moved, closer or further from the spacer to tighten or loosen the joint.


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## maggs (Jun 17, 2011)

harrysin said:


> I agree Steve, all my end mills and slot cutters are spot on. As a matter of interest can't you compensate with the setting of the Incra jig like it can be with simple jigs like the OakPark ones that I use and the homemade ones before that. Take a look at shot #1 in this pdf, the position of the OakPark spacer jig can be moved, closer or further from the spacer to tighten or loosen the joint.


Whilst it is technically possible, it would be a nightmare and you would eventually make a mistake as you would need to change the compensation for every cut. You would need to adjust the lead screw each side of the pin cuts in the opposite direction. The only other way I could think of would involve custom templates that are based on the actual cutter width. This would run into problems also because the lead screw is exactly 1 mm pitch.

This is certainly a drawback for lead screw based positioners in that the cutters must match the screw pitch in even mm increments to cut fixed width joints. I was aware of this before I committed to the Incra way but I never imagined that getting an exact size cutter would turn out to be such a drama.

There may be other solutions to get around this issue like CNCing the lead screw with a stepper motor but that makes things more complicated and the main reason for this positioner's success is in its simplicity. I'm sure I'll get there in the end. It's just that the older I get the longer it takes me to figure it out 

Steve


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Back to the basic box joint jig Steve where so long as the fence and bit are identical the distance between them can be adjusted, and with a home made one it's easy to make the fence suit the bit!


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

As I forecast, here is the fast reply from CarbiTool just received:

Good Afternoon

Our 10mm and 12mm Router Bits are made as metric cutters - So they are exactly that

All part no's with an 'M' at the end are made as metric cutters

Regards


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## maggs (Jun 17, 2011)

harrysin said:


> As I forecast, here is the fast reply from CarbiTool just received:
> 
> Good Afternoon
> 
> ...


I'll order a CarbiTool 10 mm bit tomorrow and give it a go.
I'm not ready to throw the towel in just yet. Thanks for your effort Harry.
i went to my last resort supplier in town today being Blackwoods. They can get me whatever I want but carry no stock because there are too many different bits. My response was "I can order them too and it will be delivered to my door". It's no wonder Oz retailers are in trouble. How can you expect to sell things you haven't got. i really try to support my local suppliers but it's really hard when they won't carry anything in stock.

steve


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## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

maggs said:


> I'll order a CarbiTool 10 mm bit tomorrow and give it a go.
> I'm not ready to throw the towel in just yet. Thanks for your effort Harry.
> i went to my last resort supplier in town today being Blackwoods. They can get me whatever I want but carry no stock because there are too many different bits. My response was "I can order them too and it will be delivered to my door". It's no wonder Oz retailers are in trouble. How can you expect to sell things you haven't got. i really try to support my local suppliers but it's really hard when they won't carry anything in stock.
> 
> steve


Unfortunately that's not uncommon these days, I have to order most of what I need here as well!


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

To be fair, Blackwoods are an engineering company supply house.


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## al m (Dec 13, 2012)

Hi Steve
Been away from the forum for the summer so read this thread late but with great interest.I love my incra ls but have not used it for box joints.With dovetails adjusting is simple,"heighten to tighten,lower to loosen.
I wonder if your issue could be corrected by having your oversized bit sharpened,with care be given to measure diameter until the bit is in spec.


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

maggs said:


> I put on my metalwork hat and used a Mitutoyo metric micrometer and the 10mm bit came in at 10.1mm. The bit is from a 6 piece set made and marked by Whireside as "for Incra metric system jigs".
> 
> I would have thought it would be exactly 10mm or maybe a whisker under. In the real world a 10.1mm bit will cut slightly bigger than it's actual diameter anyway. On the other hand you don't want the joints too tight either as all the glue will get squeezed out. In my mind they should push together with a small amount of pressure. Mine fitted together without any force and would fall apart if not held.
> 
> ...


What you are saying about the fit is interesting, as I said earlier the bits that I got from Incra do produce a tight fit, in fact they are so tight that I need to use a mallet go foce them together, I just assumbed that this was the way it is supposed to work, now you have me wondering. As I said, the Whiteside bits made for the Incra jig seem to be a bit oversize according to comments by other members of this forum, now I am beginning to believe that there is a good reason for it. I'm going to ask Mark about it and get back to you. The joints don't have to real tight in that the glue is going to cause the wood to swell just enough to make things work and using a mallet just seems to me to be less than ideal. Very interesting point to ponder.

Jerry


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

Jerry Bowen said:


> What you are saying about the fit is interesting, as I said earlier the bits that I got from Incra do produce a tight fit, in fact they are so tight that I need to use a mallet go foce them together, I just assumbed that this was the way it is supposed to work, now you have me wondering. As I said, the Whiteside bits made for the Incra jig seem to be a bit oversize according to comments by other members of this forum, now I am beginning to believe that there is a good reason for it. I'm going to ask Mark about it and get back to you. The joints don't have to real tight in that the glue is going to cause the wood to swell just enough to make things work and using a mallet just seems to me to be less than ideal. Very interesting point to ponder.
> 
> Jerry


 Here is the message that I have sent to Mark Mueller with Incra about the Whiteside git issue, let's see what he writes back.

Mark,
The subject of the Whiteside bits for the Incra jig has come up on the
woodworking forum that I participate in. The issue of those bits being
slightly over size is what I'm wondering about. One member just made a
box with box joints made on the jig that he says are pretty loose but of
course the glue causes the wood to expand and the joint are just fine. I
find that with the bits that I bought from Incra that the joints are very
tight even before adding glue. I'm very happy with the joints, but they
are so tight that you might say that glue is not really needed. Just
wondering what you might have to say about the issue.

Jerry








Delete & Prev | Delete & Next 
Move to: INBOX Drafts Sent Spam Trash


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## maggs (Jun 17, 2011)

I received my new CarbiTool 10mm straight bit yesterday. It measured 10.05mm and a test cut confirms this. I haven't cut a set of joints yet but I think this will be ok. I will do some joints today and we'll see. I'd rather the joint slightly loose than too tight as too tight will will force out all the glue and result in a weak joint.

I got a reply from Whiteside and they are happy for me to send the bit to them and if as I claim it's oversize they will replace it. I probably won't bother sending it back as the freight cost from Oz to the USA is about the same price as a new bit so no point there really. The Australian supplier I got the bits from is yet to provide a response. If they will accept the return I will send it back to them for replacement.

I have learn't quite a bit in the last few weeks about router bit sizing. I'm almost 100% sure that many metric bits sold are actually imperial sized and just rebadged as the closest metric size. Most times this is ok but when it counts making joints it does matter as any error in size is accumulative in joints. For instance when cutting box joints, the gap created by oversize bits is 3 times the amount oversize. Once for the pin and once for each side of the tail.

I'm still very happy with the Incra positioner overall. The more I use it the better I'll get at it.

Steve


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## maggs (Jun 17, 2011)

al m said:


> Hi Steve
> Been away from the forum for the summer so read this thread late but with great interest.I love my incra ls but have not used it for box joints.With dovetails adjusting is simple,"heighten to tighten,lower to loosen.
> I wonder if your issue could be corrected by having your oversized bit sharpened,with care be given to measure diameter until the bit is in spec.


Sharpening will certainly deal with the oversize issue. When I have enough to do I might send them off to be done. It's not worth it for a single bit as I have to send them away to have it done and it's not economical. I don't have a way to do it myself but i might need to look into that option one day.

I now have 5 x 10mm bits and 4 of them are oversize and one is 9.5mm.

steve


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## maggs (Jun 17, 2011)

harrysin said:


> To be fair, Blackwoods are an engineering company supply house.


But their catalogue does include router bits. Quite a big range. I have also tried in the past to buy end mill bits from them and the same problem. Not one single milling bit in stock. Out of all the times I've been to them I don't recall a customer walking out the door with a product in their hands. I assume they solely rely on the on-site delivery of goods to contractors and shops. I had a peek into their store area and mostly what I saw was consumable goods. To be fair though, my branch doesn't have that many shops to cater for as most industry around here has closed over the last 20 years. At one time we built ships, made trains, made and exported sugar mills and had a healthy timber industry. It's all but gone now thanks to China.

Steve


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## WurliTzerwilly (Jun 9, 2013)

FWIW has anyone tried any of the Leigh router cutters in conjunction with the Incra fence? I have a comprehensive set of Leigh bits that I bought with the Leigh Jig, but I haven't had time to test them on the Incra.


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

maggs said:


> I just measured everything that is connected with the cutting process and I think I have a possible answer. There is no single error large enough to cause the oversize cuts but it may well be that enough small ones can add up.
> 
> I measured the Wonder Fence width at the top where the sled runs and the in-feed fence is 0.1 mm (.004") narrower than the out-feed fence. Seems they weren't cut from the same piece or batch of extrusion. The only way to fix it will be to use some sort of shim on the in-feed fence or sand down to out-feed fence to match the other. I'm not too keen on sanding off the gold anodizing so I'll work on some way to shim the in-feed thickness on the back edge. .004" doesn't sound like much but, if I adjust the sled on the in-feed for zero play when you hit the out-feed fence it jams up and that's right in the middle of the cut.
> 
> ...


Steve, sounds to me like it's time to give Mark Mueller a phone call or an e-mail and just see what they have to say about the issue before you start trying to fix the problem. I suspect that Incra would like to have a chance to mop up the spilled milk.

Jerry


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## maggs (Jun 17, 2011)

Jerry Bowen said:


> Steve, sounds to me like it's time to give Mark Mueller a phone call or an e-mail and just see what they have to say about the issue before you start trying to fix the problem. I suspect that Incra would like to have a chance to mop up the spilled milk.
> 
> Jerry


Jerry, the Incra jig is 100% perfect and there is nothing they can do with the jig itself to sort the issue. It's the router bits that are causing the issue. The only thing I can imagine that Incra might want to do is contact Whiteside and stress to them they need to measure the straight bits going out in the "made for Incra jigs" packaging as it can look bad for Incra having their name on the box of a product that isn't exactly what it is represented to be.

I just returned from the workshop where I made a full set of box joints with the new 10.05mm CarbiTool bit. The joints are acceptable and better than the Whiteside but not what I'd consider perfect from a machined joint point of view. There is a tiny bit of friction when the joints are slipped together but the joints will not hold together under there own weight. The glue will swell the timber enough and the end result will be good but not perfect. The final recipient of this box will have no idea by looking at the joints, how much drama went into its making:laugh:

I think I can safely put this issue to bed given I know the cause and now have a workable solution. If Whiteside come the party and send me a real 10mm bit then I'll be very happy. I can also sleep easily knowing that I'll never need to buy another 10mm bit as I now have a lifetime supply on hand.:sarcastic:

I'd also like to point out the I'm not singling out Whiteside as all the other bit manufacturers I purchased from have QC issues also. Maybe some will even read this thread and implement better practises and the next person won't have the same problem.

In closing all I can say is that if you want box joints to have nice firm push fit you need to use a bit that is slightly undersize but not by too much. For 10mm joints that would be around 9.95mm based on my experience. Being slightly undersize will also compensate for any slight inaccuracies you have in the jig or the setup of the material.

Steve


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## Woodrocket (Sep 11, 2013)

Steve: Great looking jewlery box. Let me echo the suggestion for Brusso hinges. They are a great US made product that really set off a fine crafted project. Your fit problem is probably with the router bit itself. Over or undersized bits will really affect the fit of machine/jig produced box joints. Make sure that you verify their actual size with a dial caliper before you use them. I would have though that a 10mm Whiteside bit would be accurate, but I guess you just never know what you will get these days, if that is the problem. Whiteside bits are one of my favorites, but then again I do not work in metrics so I can't judge that side of their product line.
I have Incra postioners too; an old Twin Linear that I would hate to give up, and a Wonder fence on a TS III table saw fence system. I am a firm believer in Incra products. I have had bit problems before with several manufacturers and try to keep a set of bits exclusively for Incra use that I know are accurately sized. I get funny looks when I measure a bit at a supplier with the calipers before I buy it. 
My Incra products though have taken my woodworking to a new level with their accuracy and repeatability. I recently bought their new IBOX jig and once again am impressed with the ease of use and the quality results that I got from its use. Before that, I used the twin Linear for box joints or a homemade jig. The IBOX set up is much faster, but the quality of the joints is equal to the ones produced by my Twin Linear fence; tight and accurate. You will be amazed at all the neat stuff you can produce with your Incra positioner. Have fun and work safe!
(no I don't work for Incra...just a fan)


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