# Probably a No-No



## Hooperdoski (Jan 2, 2013)

Instinct tells me this is a big no-no, but I want to know if anyone has tried it.

I need to joint (straighten & smooth) the 5/8" edge of a piece of MDF that is 1 1/2" wide. I was going to use my jointer, but the knifes are apparently dull so I'm not getting a parallel edge (yes, the table is setup correctly). So, in thinking about it, I thought about running it through my router table, but I just don't trust the fence setup.

Rather than getting into a very detailed summary of explanations, has anyone ever tried putting the piece of wood, or MDF in this case, that you're jointing between the fence and the router bit and pushing it through in the opposite direction of the normal feed direction?

Be kind ......... It's just a simple question:nono:


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## OPG3 (Jan 9, 2011)

Howdy Bud! Welcome to the Router Forums! We hope to have helpful exchanges of information with you in both directions. *Please do not trap your wood!* It gets really dangerous. Do you not have a table saw to make that cut on? Please do it differently! That is no way to begin a New Year! We want you to have a Happy New Year and not one in the emergency room. 
Otis Guillebeau from Auburn, Georgia


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## jschaben (Jun 21, 2009)

Hooperdoski said:


> Instinct tells me this is a big no-no, but I want to know if anyone has tried it.
> 
> I need to joint (straighten & smooth) the 5/8" edge of a piece of MDF that is 1 1/2" wide. I was going to use my jointer, but the knifes are apparently dull so I'm not getting a parallel edge (yes, the table is setup correctly). So, in thinking about it, I thought about running it through my router table, but I just don't trust the fence setup.
> 
> ...


What Otis said... it's a no-no.

Not getting into your fence issue, do you have a flush trim bit? use double face tape to attach a straight edge to the top of your workpiece and use it to guide the bearing of the flush trim bit. Featherboards would be helpful on that narrow of stock.


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

Welcome to the forum, Bud.

In answer to your question, I have heard of that being done, but I would NEVER do it. 



> but I just don't trust the fence setup.


......why. You need to have
a reliable, straight and true fence to be effective on the router table. I would spend a little time to make the fence "trustable" and use that as a jointer fence. If I can do it, you, with all your experience should have no trouble.


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## GulfcoastGuy (Feb 27, 2012)

There's a little voice in your head that's telling you no ... listen to it. Get the jointer fence setup working or get the jointer knives sharpened.

GCG


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## Bradleytavares (Feb 25, 2012)

Just say NO!


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## dave brewer (Nov 28, 2012)

As long as you construct a fence where the outfeed side sticks out the same amount as the material you are removing (just as would be the case with a jointer) You will be just fine. The trick is creating a nice strait fence. Chicken or egg delema. A good table saw with a good fence will solve that problem.


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## BrianS (Nov 7, 2004)

Hi Bud. Welcome to our little corner of the 'net.

As James said, get your fence into a "trustable" state... straight is good.  And, as John suggested, a flush trim bit.

Once your fence is true, install the flush trim bit. If you have a split fence, set the outfeed side flush to the bit. Then set the the infeed side back about 1/16" and joint your wood. If you don't have a split fence, then fasten a piece of laminate, card stock, or other thin material to the outfeed side and set flush to the bit.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Brian has hit the nail on the head, a piece of laminate stuck to the outfeed side of the router table fence with double sided tape is the way to go.


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## Marvingee (Nov 9, 2012)

Definitely a NO-NO.
I use my split fence effectively, but I like John's idea of a straight edge and double sided tape.
Have to try that in the future.

Be well,
Marvin


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## gaparis (Dec 15, 2012)

I'm new at this game, but shouldn't the laminate be on the infeed side of the router fence?


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## Tool Home LLC (Sep 18, 2012)

My router table has a split fence with a micro-adjust on the infeed side. It makes a nice jointer with just a straight bit installed and is very safe.


Tom


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## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

gaparis said:


> I'm new at this game, but shouldn't the laminate be on the infeed side of the router fence?


No, it gives support _after the bit_ where the material has been removed! It should be flush with the cutter just like a jointer.


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## jschaben (Jun 21, 2009)

gaparis said:


> I'm new at this game, but shouldn't the laminate be on the infeed side of the router fence?


Hi Grant - however it is done, the infeed side needs to be behind the cutting edge of the bit and the outfeed side flush with the cutting edge of the bit. I have a split fence and a dedicated infeed fence face that is 1/64" thinner than the outfeed face for jointing. Can also be done with laminate taped to the outfeed or shims placed behind the outfeed fence.


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## Hooperdoski (Jan 2, 2013)

*Wow*

First, what a great forum. I was really surprised when I opened this thread this morning and saw all the replies and I was also surprised no one beat me up, which happens occasionally in other forums. You guys are a class act.

As for my idea about feeding the stock between the fence and router bit, there is no doubt now that my instinct was right. Because of my curiosity I may try it with a piece of scrap, but with the piece I'm using I'll joint the edge one of the normal ways like you guys are suggesting.

When I talked about not trusting the fence what I was talking about was not trusting the split fence. I just didn't know what it was called.

Some of you mentioned the table saw. I did rip the piece I'm making with my table saw and the cut edge of the piece I ripped is parallel with the factory edge and straight, but the saw blade left kerf marks and that's why the piece needs to be jointed.

After reading everything here I've decided I'm going to try the split fence first using a piece of scrape MDF that I ripped on the table saw to the exact same width as the piece I ripped for my project. I'll see how that goes and if I don't like it I'll use a flush trim bit, but the problem I have with the flush trim bit I have is that it isn't long enough to trim the entire edge, which is why I didn't think it would work. But, in thinking about it this morning it seems the flush trim bit could be raised, after the initial trim, so that the bits bearing could run on the initial trim edge to remove the remainder of the edge the flush trim bit wasn't long enough to reach.

Doing this will be interesting (a learning experience) because I've never used the spit fence before, which is why I don't trust it. 

Hopefully I can try to joint the edge today so I can get back to this thread with the results, but whatever the case I will let you guys know how it turned out.

Thanks to everyone. You guys are awesome!


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

HI

I don't see the big deal if you want you to use the router table for a jointer but you must set it up the same way as the jointer

Using the right bit is a big deal

1 PC 1 2" SH 3" Extra Long Flush Trim Router Bit | eBay

ghsu2ia3 | eBay

==


Hooperdoski said:


> Instinct tells me this is a big no-no, but I want to know if anyone has tried it.
> 
> I need to joint (straighten & smooth) the 5/8" edge of a piece of MDF that is 1 1/2" wide. I was going to use my jointer, but the knifes are apparently dull so I'm not getting a parallel edge (yes, the table is setup correctly). So, in thinking about it, I thought about running it through my router table, but I just don't trust the fence setup.
> 
> ...


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## richtink (Dec 5, 2012)

"Because of my curiosity I may try it with a piece of scrap"

Bud,
When you do that, be sure nobody is standing in the line of fire. Turn the router speed down as low as it will go and keep your hands as far away as possible. The router bit will grab it and feed the piece. Depending on if the bit is up or down spiral the piece may lift up and not be flung too far, or may be pulled down to the table and be flung at an alarming speed.

My advise would be just to accept that you should never feed between the fence and the bit. Fix your fence according to the good advise given, because you will need it for other projects.

I believe you may have an issue with your table saw fence, if you consistantly get kerf marks. It may be toed in a smidge, on the outfeed side of the the blade. It would only take a couple .001 toe in to cause that.


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## stanzee (Dec 9, 2010)

OPG3 said:


> Howdy Bud! Welcome to the Router Forums! We hope to have helpful exchanges of information with you in both directions. *Please do not trap your wood!* It gets really dangerous. Do you not have a table saw to make that cut on? Please do it differently! That is no way to begin a New Year! We want you to have a Happy New Year and not one in the emergency room.
> Otis Guillebeau from Auburn, Georgia


I am also considering cutting slots through 3/4" plywood. I plan on using start and stop blocks as well as feather boards above and in front of the board being slotted. I plan on making the pass from right to left as if routing the face away from me with the start and stop points being through drilled holes. Would it be OK to position the front feather board straddling the bit? I will stop the router after each right to left pass, move the board back to the starting hole then raising the bit a slight amount for each pass. I wonder if this or a similar procedure has been successfully tried by anyone? Being the chicken that I am I thought I would check with others before maybe trying it myself.


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

stanzee said:


> I am also considering cutting slots through 3/4" plywood. I plan on using start and stop blocks as well as feather boards above and in front of the board being slotted. I plan on making the pass from right to left as if routing the face away from me with the start and stop points being through drilled holes. Would it be OK to position the front feather board straddling the bit? I will stop the router after each right to left pass, move the board back to the starting hole then raising the bit a slight amount for each pass. I wonder if this or a similar procedure has been successfully tried by anyone? Being the chicken that I am I thought I would check with others before maybe trying it myself.


Hi Stan. I would not do it the way you describe. Your first cut may be ok, but when you move the piece back to the start, you are effectively making a climb cut. This is where the danger signs come out.

IMO,No need to use feather boards above the slot. As you are going right through any slight lift will not matter.

I would use the router out of the table, using the edge guide or skis. What size cutter are you going to use? Make each repeat cut no deeper than the width of the cutter.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Hooperdoski said:


> First, what a great forum. I was really surprised when I opened this thread this morning and saw all the replies and I was also surprised no one beat me up, which happens occasionally in other forums. You guys are a class act.
> 
> As for my idea about feeding the stock between the fence and router bit, there is no doubt now that my instinct was right. Because of my curiosity I may try it with a piece of scrap, but with the piece I'm using I'll joint the edge one of the normal ways like you guys are suggesting.
> 
> ...


Planing on the router table requires a straight bit WITHOUT a bearing and these are available at least up to 3" long cutting edge.


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## del schisler (Feb 2, 2006)

be sure and never put wood between the fence and bit , always feed into the rotation or counter clock wise on the bit, if the wood is between the fence and bit it will grab it and send it flying away from you real fast. some of us have the router work shop table and you can work from eather side but when you change sides you have to change which side of the bit to work from. any ways always feed into the rotation counter clock wise on the bit, i belive the other question has been answared this is just fyi good luck with router


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## Hooperdoski (Jan 2, 2013)

*The Rest of the Story*

After I posted yesterday I kept thinking about the idea of running the piece of MDF between the router table's fence and the router bit, with the feed direction being opposite of normal. 

So, after I got my to-do list done, I went for it. First, to satisfy me curiosity, I setup the table to try the between the fence and bit thing using a 3/4" two flute straight router bit. The result was; it was like cutting butter and it pushed through as smoothly as the normal setup does. The end result was a perfectly jointed edge and the only thing I didn't like was that I had to remove the Guard.

Anyhow, I jointed two of the scrap pieces I had cut that were the same width as the piece I'm working on and it worked so good that I decided to run the piece I'm working on through the setup and it turned out perfect. Especially the uniformity in width (0.001"), which was the most critical issue because this piece has to be exactly the same as the damaged piece it's replacing.

That said, after everything was done I thought about cutting wood using this method. I don't think I would because wood is a totally different animal when compared to MDF. MDF is a lot softer than most woods, it has no grain and it has uniform density without significant imperfections (i.e., knots, grain direction changes, splintering, etc.).

The only thing bad about it was the need to remove the guard and needing to use a push stick because of the piece's width.

Thanks again, soooooooooooooo much, to everyone who has contributed:yes4:


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## richtink (Dec 5, 2012)

I am curious, did you set your fence so you were feeding into the counter clockwise rotation of the bit?


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## GulfcoastGuy (Feb 27, 2012)

Hooperdoski said:


> After I posted yesterday I kept thinking about the idea of running the piece of MDF between the router table's fence and the router bit, with the feed direction being opposite of normal.
> 
> So, after I got my to-do list done, I went for it. First, to satisfy me curiosity, I setup the table to try the between the fence and bit thing using a 3/4" two flute straight router bit. The result was; it was like cutting butter and it pushed through as smoothly as the normal setup does. The end result was a perfectly jointed edge and the only thing I didn't like was that I had to remove the Guard.
> 
> ...


The thing about luck is that it's almost certain to run out sometime. 











GCG


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## gaparis (Dec 15, 2012)

jschaben and dmeadows - Thanks for straightening me out. That's why I've joined this group.


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## jschaben (Jun 21, 2009)

gaparis said:


> jschaben and dmeadows - Thanks for straightening me out. That's why I've joined this group.


Hi Grant - glad you got it done OK. As long as you are going against the bit rotation, as you were running left to right on the back side of the bit, you can sometimes get away with it. IF, however, you catch a hard spot in the stock, you still have it trapped between the bit and the fence.... not a good thing. As you recognized, a big difference between wood and MDF from this perspective. Running stock between the bit and fence is something I will never recommend on a forum as I have no idea what the skil/familiarity level of the person on the other end has. 
Anyway - once again welcome to the forum and we will look forward to hearing more from you. 

PS - How about a pic of your Model A... don't see many phaetons anymore.


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## BrianS (Nov 7, 2004)

Bud, that's OK. There's LOTS of posts here about people that cut themselves, or worse, lost a digit, because they did something foolish. Always room for one more.


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## Hooperdoski (Jan 2, 2013)

Richard, to answer your question, when standing in the front of the router table and looking at the fence I fed the piece from left to right because my setup was the opposite of normal so yes I did feed into the counter-clockwise rotation of the router bit.

John, you hit the nail on the head. Experience, intelligence and knowledge of the material you're working with and the tool are the four most critical thinks. While I probably have 2,000 hours or more of woodworking experience, but as a home builder I have been working with wood products for about 40 years. Thus, like you, I wouldn't tell a guy who worked in a office all his life to try something like I did.

I know the router safety rules and they are the old _one size fits all_ kind of rules and none the less I follow them 99.9% of the time, but I'm also cable of thinking outside the box.

What I tried was not luck. It was an experiment that worked. I'm smart enough to know when I'm taking a chance and when it's really risky my body tenses up. When I began to push my test piece through the setup I felt low grade tension that disappeared after three inches. That was it. And, I ran three 16" scrap pieces through the setup before I ran the the piece I'm making just to be sure it was accurate.

Would I do the same setup with wood ..... No. Would I experiment with a power tool again .... Yes. I did what I did because I wanted to know if it would work and it did and the only thing dangerous about it was that I had to remove the guard.

Nuff said.

Thanks again to all.


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## richtink (Dec 5, 2012)

Thanks for clearing that up. I feared you were feeding with the rotation. I see no problem feeding into the rotation. I have never thought of putting my fence on the other side of the table or feeding from the backside of the table. That was a great work through for your situation. I do believe that will only work with a straight flute bit, or a spiral that would draw the work down to the table.

Have you figured out why your table saw leaves kerf marks?


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## Hooperdoski (Jan 2, 2013)

Richard, I think I get the kerf marks because of the blades I'm using. All the saw blades I have for my table saw, radial arm saw and chop saw are mostly inexpensive 10" blades, with 40 teeth, that I bought years ago when I was contracting.

I bought the cheap blades because I was using the saws for framing/home building materials where a good cut wasn't necessary and one pass through the jointer always got rid of the kerf marks if I was doing woodworking. However, now that I'm doing more wookworking every time I do a project I think to myself, "Get some better saw blades.", but when the project is over I forget all about it until the next time. Dumb, huh?

I don't normally make New Year's Resolutions, but now that you've brought up the subject, which made me think about it, I'm going to get some good blades so that's my New Year's Resolution.

Thanks.


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## stanzee (Dec 9, 2010)

jw2170 said:


> Hi Stan. I would not do it the way you describe. Your first cut may be ok, but when you move the piece back to the start, you are effectively making a climb cut. This is where the danger signs come out.
> 
> IMO,No need to use feather boards above the slot. As you are going right through any slight lift will not matter.
> 
> I would use the router out of the table, using the edge guide or skis. What size cutter are you going to use? Make each repeat cut no deeper than the width of the cutter.


I did mention that I would stop the router before returning to the starting point and then raising the bit for the next pass.
How does that affect your assesssment of my process?


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## richtink (Dec 5, 2012)

Hooperdoski said:


> Richard, I think I get the kerf marks because of the blades I'm using. All the saw blades I have for my table saw, radial arm saw and chop saw are mostly inexpensive 10" blades, with 40 teeth, that I bought years ago when I was contracting.
> 
> I bought the cheap blades because I was using the saws for framing/home building materials where a good cut wasn't necessary and one pass through the jointer always got rid of the kerf marks if I was doing woodworking. However, now that I'm doing more wookworking every time I do a project I think to myself, "Get some better saw blades.", but when the project is over I forget all about it until the next time. Dumb, huh?
> 
> ...


Sometimes kerf marks are caused by the fence being toed in on the outfeed side of the blade. I cured mine years ago by kicking it out a couple thousandths. You need a dial indicator to get it perfect, or a really expensive fence system.


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

stanzee said:


> I did mention that I would stop the router before returning to the starting point and then raising the bit for the next pass.
> How does that affect your assesssment of my process?


Hi Stan. I did not pick up on that point. However on reflection, I realised that if you had featherboards top and side, you should not be able to move the work piece backward. The direction of the fingers is designed to prevent that.


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## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

richtink said:


> I have never thought of putting my fence on the other side of the table or feeding from the backside of the table.


Putting the fence on the "other" side of the table may give you more space if your router is offset in the table. It *DOES NOT*( can I yell it any louder?) change the feed direction of any cut any more than turning the whole table would. Router bits are round and always turn the same direction. This is why the fence does not need to be parallel to anything! See most any the Router Workshop videos... Bob nor Rick hardly ever have the fence parallel to an edge of the table!

If you feed left to right with the work piece between the fence and the bit, the force vector is pulling the work piece *AWAY*(Yes I am yelling again!) from the fence!

On my shaper, I can reverse the motor and feed left to right(there are cases where there is an advantage to this), but not on the router table. 

If you do decide to do a cut left to right, the board needs to be held tightly to the fence and the cut needs to be 1/32 to 1/16 of an inch( 1 or 2 mm for the metric folks) maximum. I don't recommend that for inexperienced users. Better to find a different, safer way to make that cut! Even experienced woodworkers will get into trouble if distracted even for a split second while making that kind of cut. As has been said many times, it only takes once.


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## Hooperdoski (Jan 2, 2013)

Richard, I have done the Table Saw Fence alignment several times before with calipers. It's the cheap rough carpentry blades I own.

No doubt this thread, in a way, is controversial. It started with a Simple Question ("has anyone ever tried") and that led to an experiment that worked. Maybe had I explained the hows and whys this thread wouldn't have ran four pages. For those it bothered I apologize. I see it as educational. Others see it as a negative.

Some everyone understands, what I'm doing is replicating a MDF edge piece of a cabinet door that someone broke. To boot, I was curious if I could make an exact/perfect replication, meaning an attempt to keep everything within a 0.001 of an inch (yes ...... I'm being anal).

Everyone that uses a router knows that when you're jointing or routing the edge of a piece of wood you will sometimes get imperfections that are usually caused by pushing pressure (top & edge) that is inconsistent and by moving your hands on the piece as you're pushing it through. An imperfection would have meant starting from scratch again, which I didn't want to do so the concern about routing imperfections lead me to come up with the idea about the reverse feed.

In my situation I had a factory finished (primered) straight edge on one edge and I had to take off exactly 0.025" on the other edge because I had cut my piece 0.025" wider than what I needed to allow for jointing the piece on my jointer, which as it turned out I couldn't use because of the jointer's dull knifes.

Below are drawings of router table tops setup for reverse feed and normal feed. I choose the reverse feed because I felt the counter clockwise rotation of the router bit combined with straight edge of the fence would help to better control side pressure so concentration could be more focused on the hand movement while pushing the piece through.










There you have it. It's as simple as that. I know my logic is debatable ...... Logic always is. But between the postings in this thread and hindsight I've thought a lot about what I'll do next time. Whereas I didn't trust my featherboard because it doesn't fit the mitre fence slot, next time I will have a homemade router table featherboard that will apply pressure on both sides (left and right) of the router bit.

Thanks again to everyone.


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## Hooperdoski (Jan 2, 2013)

richtink said:


> Sometimes kerf marks are caused by the fence being toed in on the outfeed side of the blade. I cured mine years ago by kicking it out a couple thousandths. You need a dial indicator to get it perfect, or a really expensive fence system.


Richard, I have set up the the fence alignment many times using calipers. I sure the kerf marks are there because of the cheap blades and probably more so because of moving my hands while pushing longer pieces through.


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## Bradleytavares (Feb 25, 2012)

Have you tried a sprial up/down cut bit. The only real way to go since it 'shears' and doesn't 'beat' the wood. Steel is ok and affordable, carbide is best but at this time pricey. Hopefully the price will come down with increased volume sold but we all understand supply and demand in a capitalistic economy. We'll see?


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## Jimholmes (Jan 11, 2013)

I agree, if you hear that voice in your head saying "no it's not a good idea" then I would listen to it. Better to get your bit sharpened or maybe use a flush trim bit with a straight guild fence. Remember safety first. Good luck.


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

One of the first safety rules members need to learn is to never trap the material between the bit and the fence. There are several threads in our safety section with photos of injuries forum members have posted... terrible injuries that could of been avoided. We use push blocks or sticks to keep our fingers away from bits and we always unplug our routers when making bit changes or adjustments. We do this every time, no exceptions. Nobody ever got hurt by following these simple safety rules.


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## Hooperdoski (Jan 2, 2013)

This forum has taught me something. There is no doubt in my mind. What I did was wrong even though it worked. In thinking about it, and I did a lot of that, I will not do it again. The solution I've come up with for getting uniform router cuts is featherboards. And, I'm not only getting them for my router table, I'm getting a set for my table saw (my jointer already has one) along with some new blades for my table saw and mitre saw.

Again, thanks to everyone and especially those that said it was wrong. You're the guys that made me think and sometimes a pigheaded pollock needs a helping hand like that.


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## GulfcoastGuy (Feb 27, 2012)

Hooperdoski said:


> This forum has taught me something. There is no doubt in my mind. What I did was wrong even though it worked. In thinking about it, and I did a lot of that, I will not do it again. The solution I've come up with for getting uniform router cuts is featherboards. And, I'm not only getting them for my router table, I'm getting a set for my table saw (my jointer already has one) along with some new blades for my table saw and mitre saw.
> 
> Again, thanks to everyone and especially those that said it was wrong. You're the guys that made me think and sometimes a pigheaded pollock needs a helping hand like that.


Good to hear. This stuff can be too hazardous to not learn from the mistakes of others. The stakes are just too high. We all want everyone leaving the shop with all parts attached and in good working order for the next time.

GCG


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## AxlMyk (Jun 13, 2006)

gaparis said:


> I'm new at this game, but shouldn't the laminate be on the infeed side of the router fence?


No. The laminate goes on the outfeed side. The bit is then aligned to the outfeed side also.
It will act just like a jointer, where the knives are in plane with the outfeed table.


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