# Router table or Plunge routing



## template tom (Sep 18, 2004)

Hi Bob

Mike has suggested that we discus this issue in this section of the form which I have no objections.

"Table-mounted Routing 
Discussions solely based on operations that are using the table-mounted router. Bob and Rick say "*More than 90% of all operations *using the router can be done with the table-mounted router"

Need for a change.

The statement made at the introduction should be changed to "A great number of operations using the router can be done with the table mounted router" With the introduction to the use of the guides has introduced a large number of operations can be produced, projects that would be unable to be completed with the table-mounted router. I have my own list of processes that I could not produce with the router inserted in the table.

You asked for a list of my operations using the plunge mode to support my suggestion to a change to the statement Bob and Rick have posted. 

Maybe we could start a thread submitting a topic, not necessarily a complete project to substantiate my claim rather than a produce a complete list. 

This will give us the opportunity to present a project to see if it could be achieved in the router table. I am quite prepared to start by submitting one of my projects where a number of processes could be completed with the router under the table and some that could not be accomplished unless the Plunge mode is used with the aid of the template guides. 

This discussion could be of interest to others who may wish to make the project presented. 

As I said I am willing to start as I was the one who asked for the change.
To make things clear to anyone else who maybe willing to come in on the discussion we are looking at a process to add to a number of processes required to complete the project.

Subject:
*Small Mantle clock made from two pieces of material*

*Section 1 The base of the clock.*
I am convinced that the number of processes required to complete the base of the clock could be completed with the router in the table. As a matter of interest they also can be achieved with the router in the plunge mode. (which is the way I produced the base).

*Section 2 The top section.*
(a) Routing the external shape of the clock Ends.
(b) Routing the external shape of the clock Top.
(c) Routing the internal shape reducing it to size.
(d) Inserting the recesses for the clock movement.

I have searched for the necessary drawings I made at the time to produce my Jigs and templates this will show clearly that a great number of processes could not be achieved with the router under the table. or maybe I should have said they can be achieved with greater safety with the use of the the router in the plunge mode. Over to you to show members how you would do it with the table router and also submit one of your projects for discussion. 
Tom


----------



## template tom (Sep 18, 2004)

Forgot to add the pic of the project
Tom


----------



## template tom (Sep 18, 2004)

Still no response from members. I was hoping at least BJ3 would come up with a project to demonstrate the use of the router table or even Bob and Rick who are now submitting comments
Tom


----------



## Bogydave (Nov 14, 2008)

Nice
Is this all made from one piece of wood?
Hard for me to visualize the template used. I should have paid more attention in drafting class 40 years ago.


----------



## dovetail_65 (Jan 22, 2008)

Hi Tom . Are you asking someone to come up with a way to do it on a table? At first look I might not use a router at all for some of it, then using the table for the rest may be simpler.

I think any project can be accomplished on the table, whether it is simpler or worth the set up to make it safe is another question.


----------



## template tom (Sep 18, 2004)

Bogydave said:


> Nice
> Is this all made from one piece of wood?
> Hard for me to visualize the template used. I should have paid more attention in drafting class 40 years ago.


Two pieces all completed with the router in the plunge mode with the templates and Jig submitted in opening post
Tom


----------



## template tom (Sep 18, 2004)

nickao65 said:


> Hi Tom . Are you asking someone to come up with a way to do it on a table? At first look I might not use a router at all for some of it, then using the table for the rest may be simpler.
> 
> I think any project can be accomplished on the table, whether it is simpler or worth the set up to make it safe is another question.


Nickao

People who visit this forum are left with the impression that more than 90% of all routing processes can be achieved on the router table. What you have submitted saying you think any project can be accomplished in the table is adding fuel to the fire. I am not saying that the project I have submitted which was done in the plunge mode with the aid of the template guides could not be achieved in the table mode. You hit it right on the nose "is it worth the set up to make it Safer". I have to say yes it is.

When I do make any postings regarding the method I have developed, I usually have tried and had success producing the item with the plunge router in the plunge mode. I have given consideration to the safety factor before I proceed, whether it is to be produced in the table or plunge. (I have three routers set up permanently in the router table). I have looked at the challenge given me and made the decision on safety. Under no circumstances would I have submitted the project until I had completed it. For interest sake only, this actual clock was made by one of my blind students when I went back teaching for a year at the Association for the blind.

I was only asking some router enthusiast to consider if this could be done in the table and submit some procedures used, in the same way as I submitted drawings of my Jigs and templates. Personally I do not think I would attempt to use the table but I would always be interested when someone actually produces the item.

In the near future I will be doing a 'film shoot' when producing this item on DVD showing more clearly step by step the procedure I have developed. 

I suppose what I am trying to get over to members is, there are other ways of using the router and do not be led to believe that it should be done in the table.

I have many processes that in my opinion should not be attempted in the router table and people have to 'think outside the square' when considering their next project.

I have decided to try and get into our colleges and senior schools this year to illustrate use of the guides. I did attend a couple of schools just before they broke up for the Christmas holidays and I had a good response to what I had presented hence the reason to make the effort to attend others.

Enclosed Joint of a (mortice) oops should have read Tenon incorporated on a mitre and the Cabinet handle are two more examples that should not me made on the router table.

Tom


----------



## dovetail_65 (Jan 22, 2008)

Tom I am simply saying anything can be done anyway. It just depends on how much trouble you want to go through. Going through the hassle to prove a point is always a way to get it done. That's all I was saying. For you to write this I think you are blowing it way out of proportion and taking it way to personally. 

I believe ANYTHING can be done on a table I also believe ANYTHING can be done with a manual router. Whether it is practical or not is the question, I think you misread what I meant. If we can send guys to the moon someone can come up with a way to do it on the table. Who cares, I don't. If you really think this can NOT be done on a table by someone, somewhere you are mistaken.

I was just asking if you wanted someone to come up with a way to do it on a table. Was that the point of the post? It seems like you are saying this can not be done on a table and you are daring someone to figure it out, is that the case? Have you ever taken into account someone, somewhere may have an idea you or I never thought of that can make it really simple to do on a table, I am sure there is.

I have been around long enough to know I do no know everything, but you are acting like you know you do. First, those holes I would probably do it on a drill press for starters.

I answered the post and asked the question as nice as I could. It seems you just want everyone to answer "oh yeah you are right that must be done with a hand held". I am only saying of course it can be done a table, it may take 16 hours or it may take a lot more work, but who cares. I think you should be thinking in terms of showing techniques for people to use instead of trying to prove one way is better than the other. Actually, strike that I am not going to tell you how to think.

This is a forum run by guys who make and sell tables and had a show on table use so of course that is the bias here.

I will ask the questions again.

Are you asking for someone to come up with a way to do this on a table? And are you asking for it to be done with a router exclusively? 

That was all I said, you are taking this totally way to personally and I am actually dismayed at your response to my post becasue I agree that the templates and a hand held were the way to go with this project. I just thought you wanted to see ideas on how it could be done on the table. 

Pleas re-read, I did not add any fuel to any fire in my post and I am totally confused by your response.

I like your posts and like your techniques and you are very helpful, but anything can be done anyway and I will stick to that, why it matters I do not know. I hope you keep posting your techniques, but they are ideas to work with and expand upon.

I am very sorry I did not say "hey this does have to be done in a hand held". I can not say that because I am not so sure it must be, though that is how I would most probably do it..

There is some guy somewhere out there with the know how and jigs to get it done a different way than we can and I am keeping an open mind to it, thats all.

I do apologize if you take negativity from my post, but I keep rereading what I wrote and just do not see it at all.

Again this is what I said that set you off:

"I think any project can be accomplished on the table, *whether it is simpler or worth the set up to make it safe is another question*". 

The bolded section is self explanatory is it not. Where does it add fuel to the fire other than not agreeing that it MUST be done ONLY ONE WAY? I have not even thought about how to do it on the table as that was not even my point at all. I probably would not do it on a table, I was just saying....

I actually started using the metric guides becasue of your posts and also have used several of your ideas, I hope that is enough satisfaction for you to keep posting becasue a lot of us are learning things every time you post.

I am sorry I upset you.


----------



## dovetail_65 (Jan 22, 2008)

Tom now I am looking at that joint you posted a picture of. Anyone can make a jig to hold the piece on an angle and use a horizontal router table to route that Tenon. There is no reason not to use a table for it, you just must have the right table and the correct jig to support the piece. But it can be done on a table.

I have actually seen a joint made like that on a horizontal router table!

I guess after this I will not respond to the *table VS hand held* becasue I am not going to fight you on it, its unproductive sitting here going back and forth . You put something up, then I figure a way to do it on a table, that is stupid. But that tenon is simpler to do on a router table than the initial clock project you put up, with a horizontal router table.

I will post some things I am making using your techniques and I hope you take pride that you taught me something and take my gratitude toward you for showing me your techniques.

Please do not stop posting because of me. I like you and appreciated the emails you sent me and am still waiting to purchase one of your DVD's.


----------



## template tom (Sep 18, 2004)

Nickao

My first mistake it is a tenon on a mitre so I will go back and correct it. My comments are can it be done safer on the table and to this end I was interested in someone coming up with a solution.

I have not responded to the post to 'fight' anyone only to try and create some interest in routing and introduce safe methods with the router.

I look forward to your post using the method I have introduced and I will certainly praise your efforts in at least giving it a go.

I agree with you when you say "anything can be done anyway" but we should be looking at a safe method of doing it.

You asked "was I looking for someone to come up with the way to do it in a table"? I suppose I would be most interested to learn new techniques ideas that I have overlooked.

Nick I have never said at any time that it must be done in the hand held position in many of my posts I have simply offered an alternative way that could be considered. 

Nick I have never tried to indicate to anyone that I know everything 

"oh yeah you are right that [I]must be done with a hand held".[/I] 
That statement has never been suggested by me at any time. and if my memory serves me right I have submitted posts to help others should you care to look through my previous threads for example an introduction to the use of the template guides is an introduction to my techniques.

Nick this really has developed out of hand and we seem to be thinking that we are picking on each other this was never my intention so with my apology I will say goodnight
Tom


----------



## TreasureChest (Feb 7, 2009)

How deep is that clock top? that started out on a big piece of wood? and you cut most of it away? or did you cut small strips n glue them together? didn't know they made router bits so long!

tc


----------



## template tom (Sep 18, 2004)

TreasureChest said:


> How deep is that clock top? that started out on a big piece of wood? and you cut most of it away? or did you cut small strips n glue them together? didn't know they made router bits so long!
> 
> tc


My apology treasurechest for not responding to your post. There was no need for a very long router bit and the pieces were not glued together in strips. It was constructed from two pieces of material. This is one of the projects I designed specifically for my blind students when I went back teaching for a year after retiring.

Tom


----------



## Ralph Barker (Dec 15, 2008)

Tom, sorry I missed your original post here. Although I'm relatively new to the forum, I'd agree that the description of table-mounted routing may be misleading by assigning a percentage of operations to one method over another. Being somewhat of a wordsmith (former magazine editor), one of my favorite obfuscatory sesquepedalianisms is, "There are a multitude of methodologies by which to divest the feline of its epidural enclosure". In other words, there's more than one way to skin a cat. 

While, individually, we may tend to advocate one method over another due to our individual working preferences, there is value, I think, in having the forum descriptions take a method-neutral, safety-first sort of approach, so as not to inadvertently lead someone down the potentially less-desirable (note that I'm stopping short of saying "wrong") path. 

For someone new to routing, it may not be immediately obvious that there are different methods of work, or that some may be easier (or, safer) for certain types of operations. To the extent possible, it might be helpful for the forum structure and descriptions to at least hint at these differences, and perhaps their hand-tool analogues.


----------



## Gene Howe (Jul 10, 2007)

template tom said:


> My apology treasurechest for not responding to your post. There was no need for a very long router bit and the pieces were not glued together in strips. It was constructed from two pieces of material. This is one of the projects I designed specifically for my blind students when I went back teaching for a year after retiring.
> 
> Tom


WOW!! Teaching blind students shop skills must be very challenging as well as tremendously rewarding. My hat is off to you, sir!


----------



## template tom (Sep 18, 2004)

*Routing with Tom O'Donnell*



Ralph Barker said:


> Tom, sorry I missed your original post here. Although I'm relatively new to the forum, I'd agree that the description of table-mounted routing may be misleading by assigning a percentage of operations to one method over another. Being somewhat of a wordsmith (former magazine editor), one of my favorite obfuscatory sesquepedalianisms is, "There are a multitude of methodologies by which to divest the feline of its epidural enclosure". In other words, there's more than one way to skin a cat.
> 
> While, individually, we may tend to advocate one method over another due to our individual working preferences, there is value, I think, in having the forum descriptions take a method-neutral, safety-first sort of approach, so as not to inadvertently lead someone down the potentially less-desirable (note that I'm stopping short of saying "wrong") path.
> 
> For someone new to routing, it may not be immediately obvious that there are different methods of work, or that some may be easier (or, safer) for certain types of operations. To the extent possible, it might be helpful for the forum structure and descriptions to at least hint at these differences, and perhaps their hand-tool analogues.


Ralph,
It has been some time since I developed the skills with the use of the template guides. I suppose at that time I was also saying to myself yes "There is more than one way to skin a cat". 
Due to the initial lack of knowledge on the use of the guides I began to investigate the reason why it was included in my list of accessories in the first place. My enquires led me to contact the suppliers (This was in the days when there was no home computers to look up Google for the answer) I was given a list of other guides available so I purchased a 40mm and a 30mm as I needed to produce a small handle to be inserted into a door of a small aircraft cabinet. 

I was unable to find any information on the use of the guides, except when it was used to rout with a male template to produce a shape larger than the template. Needless to say the process was usually conducted with the aid of the router table. I would have used this method on numerous occasions to produce the article I was producing. Following that I observed the use of the guides when using the dovetail machine that came on the market.

I had considered, the making of the handle was unsafe to be produced on the router table because of it's size, therefore I set out to design a Jig and template to rout out the shape using the handheld router. I was unable to complete the process hand held and I was committed to using the router table for the final two stages. This was completed after I produced two jigs to hold it secure to complete the process. With the knowledge I have today on the use of the guides, I think I would sit down and design a suitable jig to complete the project with the router in the plunge mode. For Safety sake.

I published an article "Introduction to the use of template guides" which I sent to the forum, and as you can see still posted as a 'Sticky' with many views to see the contents. I have some positive feedback from a few who cared to try the method, but I am sure there are the majority of router users who would say "I can do this on the router table". There is no doubt in my mind that it can. My question is safer? I first saw this produced in the router table and I suppose that was what prompted me to write the article.

Ralph, I have submitted many projects that I consider can be achieved with the aid of the template guides. I know that others will say that it can also be produced on the router table. I have never disagreed all I have said "IS IT SAFER"?

Tom


----------



## Doak (Mar 20, 2009)

*Termplate Tom has moved*

As from today Tuesday 14th April I do not have my old email address and my PM can no longer be addressed to Template Tom as I am unable to access them so if you wish to contact me use the PM for Doak. I also have a new email address as from today if you wish to email me

Tom
Template Tom


----------

