# A Poor Retired Plumbers Take on LED



## Coleve (Oct 31, 2012)

Hi there, forum Fraternity,

You know how you send me out to the workshop as soon as get out of my pajamas. Yes, she replied without a hint of compassion.

Well do you know what that costs to send me out there. Yes, she replied. What I asked. Peace and quiet she answered.


I think quite a few members will be in similar situations, especially if like yours truly, retired with a little too much time on one’s hands, and consequently head out back to embrace the sweet clutches of a sawdust environment


Now I am lucky and blessed with a fairly large workshop and although the rewards are self-evident in that there is space to swing a router, there are certain downsides, mainly running costs.


Now here in the UK the mortgage was the big drain on your purse, but the utility bills are edging up there alongside to carve itself a niche in the old wage packet.


It makes you aware of your monthly outgoings and as such you look for ways to reduce costs, which I always find actually cost you initially. You have to weigh up the outlay against the savings and have to in most cases look at the long-term benefits as it isn’t going to happen overnight.


A few years ago, we were all advised to rip out our light bulbs and replace with the new Halogen ones, which I did and I still remember the actual cost i.e. £124 ($150). The upside to this was you developed night vision in that you ventured into a room and did what you had to do and left just as the bulb reached full lumen.


Now I have told to rip out these nasty halogen ones and replace with the LED, with instant start, which like a good citizen I did, and it was a dam sight more than £124. 

The only down side was on the first night I went to bed and stripped off I saw myself in the bedroom mirror for the first time in years, I almost put the old bulbs back.

So where is this leading if anywhere. Now in my workshop I have 14 of five ft florescent tubes and 21 of two ft ones on the ground floor. This equates to as follows:

Existing setup
14 tubes @ 58watt equals 812watts
21 tubes @ 18watts equals 378watts
Total is 1190watts

I need the lights on all the time I am in the shop and that equates to quite a bill at the end of the quarter.

New setup
16 tubes @ 22watts equals 352watts
12 tubes @ 9watts equals 108 watts
Total is 460watts
Saving is 730watts
In each case I went for the 6000 lux daylight tubes.

Cost from E bay was a 12 pack of 5ft Energiser T8 @ £104.50
Cost from E bay was a 4 pack of 5ft Energiser T8 @ £ 40.58
Cost from E bay was a 12 pack of 2ft Energiser T8 @ £ 44.77

Delivery was free and they arrived in good condition.
If anyone wants to check it out the E Bay item number is 401743861501



Now initially a couple of years I considered this but technology hadn’t quite caught up with the introduction of LED, but now we have retro fit ones which makes life a whole lot easier.

This section of my letter deals with the actual install method I choose, and alternatives which I felt might be of some help to our members who are thinking about this cost cutting upgrade.

So here goes.

There are two led tubes i.e. single ended and double ended. I chose the single ended purely as there is less wiring involved.

There are two types of existing florescent tube fittings, those with magnetic ballasts and the electromagnetic ballasts. The magnetic ones have a starter which usually sticks out of the side of the fitting and can be removed by a push and twist. It will also have an internal capacitor. While the other has no such extras, its all contained within the ballast itself. 

The easiest way is to buy the likes of the Energiser T8 which comes with its own starter and you simply remove the existing starter, replace with the Led starter and insert the new LED tube, and that’s it. You don’t need a starter and its really just a fuse to protect the tube. 

I didn’t use this method as the ballast etc. are all still live, but if you are not confident on wiring this is the way to go.

My method was to disconnect the ballast, starter and capacitors, but just leave them in situ or not, and wire a 240v live feed (hot) and neutral direct to one end baton fitting and completely disconnecting the opposite baton as its only job is to hold the tube in place. I didn’t need the fuse starter as all my light fittings already had fuses build in. And that’s it. Each fitting took about 10minutes to wire.

A couple of things you have to look for is whether the end baton is shunted or unshunted. Some fittings have an internal connection within the end baton fitting which does not work with led tubes. I have a photo shown the reading you should expect i.e. open circuit, if you get a closed circuit the batons must be swapped out. Always check before ordering as many shops give you the unshunted batons free of charge.

Secondly remember to mark with a sharpie which end is your live as the Led tubes only activate from one end. 


So that’s its lads, hope you gleamed something from my ramblings and not too boring and at this point you ask was it worth it. Initially yes. The first thing you notice is how bright the workshop is now compared to the yellow light it was before. (see before/after photos) I also have my lights on three separate circuits and rarely have them all on at once so I am running on most occasions the equivalent of one to two 100watt light bulbs.

So, putting aside Lumens and lux how does it feel. Well the old ones were a warm beige affect which was ok but I needed more of them to get a proper light on to the surfaces, however I went for the daylight ones and have to say the difference is remarkable. I now see all my mistakes and open joints a lot clearer. Yes, well worth the money and effort.

Last statement, how did a poor retired plumber get this past she who is almighty. I just explained the cost of lighting the shop was getting prohibitive and that I will be saving money by spending less time in the workshop and more time with her in the house.

Job Done

Ps. 
My apologies for not being more involved lately but my recovery from my turning accident took way longer than expected, and getting served hand and foot from my good wife my have delayed my recovery somewhat if you catch my drift. But I’m back hail and hearty.

Colin 
Scotland


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## bryansong (Mar 4, 2015)

Nice post Colin, lots of good information there.


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

I just threw the old ones out and got all new 4' fixtures from Costco when they were on sale for $25 and plugged them in. Could link 4 or five together and use the end one as an additional outlet. Only have had 1 go bad on 3+ years. Just replaced it with an extra one. Always have to have extras of most anything...........just in case.

Did you notice much difference in the quality of lighting?? Glad to hear your taking your time "recovering" so it all has time to heal properly. lol


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## David Bradford (Sep 12, 2019)

I started retrofitting LED lights into our 8' T12 fixtures. I had been saying for a while we should consider high bay lights and the powers that be finally agreed now I am switching to LED high bays.


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## Stoobydale (Oct 6, 2019)

Nice workshop.


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## MEBCWD (Jan 14, 2012)

Good to hear from you Colin. I have some LED bulbs in my shop that I bought to replace the old T8 bulbs and have never found the time to do it. I need to spend more time out in the shop so maybe I can replace them while the CNC cuts out a few parts. Thanks for your post on the LED replacements.


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## Flipsaw (Mar 11, 2016)

Nice to see you here again Colin. Missed you writings. Shop lots great. Glad you are back and on the mend.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Awesome looking shop. Certainly well equipped and organized. Curios what size it is?


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## Coleve (Oct 31, 2012)

Hi Rick and forum members.

The shop is 11metres by 6 metres with the same on the first floor. Except the first floor is completely decked out for storage. That way I can usually keep the ground floor clear of clutter. 

Thanks for your kind works on my post and I hope it encourages some of you to move to the light. In all honesty I have been using the new lights for a week now and two things hit me. One the difference in the shop is amazing with the extra light and secondly I don’t have that nagging feeling of how much this trip to the shop is costing me every time I flick the switch. 

Colin


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## gdonham1 (Oct 31, 2011)

Now you have really done it. You have all those old bulbs that have to be disposed of in an environmentally safe manner. The bulbs have mercury and other contaminants in them. I shall have to report you to your local council. 

Just kidding but what are you going to do with the old bulbs? I have wrapped my old bulbs with craft paper and smashed them to save space in the trash. Be sure you wrap them completely to keep the dust and glass from coming out in the shop.

What will the nanny state have you do with those old bulbs.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Coleve said:


> Hi Rick and forum members.
> 
> The shop is 11metres by 6 metres with the same on the first floor. Except the first floor is completely decked out for storage. That way I can usually keep the ground floor clear of clutter.
> 
> ...


 I’m liking the size of your shop . Looks roomy than 6 metres wide for some reason , as you definitely don’t look cramped at all. 

I’m loving the idea of saving power , but unfortunately for me exposure to over head led lighting brings my herpes virus out of remission on my right cornea , and it happens in short order .
I suspect it’s because of all the blue light they output . I had to remove all of mine because I wasn’t aware of that problem until I installed them .
Just lost a job opportunity at Home Depot , as they changed from fluorescent lights to led last weekend .
I can only go in their briefly now , which is unfortunate as I really like the employees


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## Coleve (Oct 31, 2012)

Hi thanks Guy
Here in the UK almost every town has a recycling centre. Where I live in the north east of Scotland our town has a centre run by the town council. Where you can bring anything along from old tv’s to garden refuse. The site is huge and each refuse is allocated a dumpster ie scrap metal, cardboard, clothing etc. You just drive up and the guys take everything from you. They have a section just for lightbulbs and fluorescent tubes. There is a special container for overseas aid where you dispose of anything that is still useful. The idea originally started because before the centres many people were just taking their rubbish to the country side and fly tipping. There is no charge unless you are a registered business 

Colin


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## Coleve (Oct 31, 2012)

Hi Rick
Sorry to here of your condition. I have never heard of this before and wish you well. As for us the reason we are always trying to reduce costs is that our utilities such as gas and electric are horrendous almost the same as having a mortgage. My son lives in Houston and I fill his tank for $30 whereas I fill my tank for $120. It’s Ying yang, we don’t pay for health care here and our insurances are very reasonable. His, is through the roof. 

Not sure about Canada. 

Colin


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Coleve said:


> Hi Rick
> Sorry to here of your condition. I have never heard of this before and wish you well. As for us the reason we are always trying to reduce costs is that our utilities such as gas and electric are horrendous almost the same as having a mortgage. My son lives in Houston and I fill his tank for $30 whereas I fill my tank for $120. It’s Ying yang, we don’t pay for health care here and our insurances are very reasonable. His, is through the roof.
> 
> Not sure about Canada.
> ...


I’d certainly use them if I could, but not a prayer . The best light for me is the second least efficient,halogen . Makes sense as halogen is the closest to representing natural sunlight . 
I use halogen upstairs and t8 fluorescents in the gym . I have one led on the back outside of my garage that faces the alley on a motion detector . It’s only for security,and I’m not really exposed to it .
If they had a really good quality blue light blocker on a led light ,I suspect I’d be fine .
I have to use blue blocker reading glasses with computers phones etc 

My garage is going to be all fluorescent t8’ also . I use the lowest temperature you can buy.


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## kp91 (Sep 10, 2004)

In 1992 and 1993 I was the electrician by default on 2 old steam ships built in the 70s. Each stateroom had 3 incandescent ceiling fixtures, each with 3 60w bulbs. I had to take each one apart and install 2 CFL fixtures into each ceiling fixture, which took pretty much of my afternoon work hours for my entire assignment between the cabins, the passageway lights, and other public spaces. The electrical savings was significant, but the real savings was due to the A/C system not having to work as hard. 

The newer ships are still mostly fluorescent tube, just because the initial cost of the LEDs are much higher. The High Bay Floodlights are being switched to LED, just because the bulbs are so expensive and they don't last very long with vibration.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

kp91 said:


> The electrical savings was significant, but the real savings was due to the A/C system not having to work as hard.


With incandescent lights the wattage of light output is also pretty much the same in heat output.


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

kp91 said:


> In 1992 and 1993 I was the electrician by default on 2 old steam ships built in the 70s. Each stateroom had 3 incandescent ceiling fixtures, each with 3 60w bulbs. I had to take each one apart and install 2 CFL fixtures into each ceiling fixture, which took pretty much of my afternoon work hours for my entire assignment between the cabins, the passageway lights, and other public spaces. The electrical savings was significant, but the real savings was due to the A/C system not having to work as hard.
> 
> The newer ships are still mostly fluorescent tube, just because the initial cost of the LEDs are much higher. The High Bay Floodlights are being switched to LED, just because the bulbs are so expensive and they don't last very long with vibration.


Doug, I read on here someplace the other day that a TS motor wired to run on 240v has twice the hp of when it is run on 120v. I am not an electrician of any kind, but I didn't think that is the case. Can you clarify? 

Also when you say the LED's cost too much, I am surprised that would be considered when you think of the cost if a ship?

Herb


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## kp91 (Sep 10, 2004)

Herb Stoops said:


> Doug, I read on here someplace the other day that a TS motor wired to run on 240v has twice the hp of when it is run on 120v. I am not an electrician of any kind, but I didn't think that is the case. Can you clarify?
> 
> Also when you say the LED's cost too much, I am surprised that would be considered when you think of the cost if a ship?
> 
> Herb


Herb,

The 99% of the time the horsepower of a motor is essentially the same if it is 120 or 220v. The difference is the current that it draws. On your nameplate for the motor you should see 2 current values for the motor, one for 120v and one for 220v. The simple version of the electrical power formula is P = I x V. The way some motors are made there can be a little difference, but not a ton. A 220v motor may develop more starting torque than a 110v motor, but you probably shouldn't start your table saw under load..... The bigger issue is you can use smaller conductors to the saw, you will be able to run a higher horsepower motor for the same current. That is why 3+HP motors are 220v, and most 110v motors top out at 2HP.


As for the cost of regular fluorescent fixtures vs. LED, when you are looking at 400+ light fixtures it makes a noticeable difference on that line item, and that is what the specifiers look at when pricing a ship. Usually the ship builder has a very limited range of choices for the customer, because they want to make as many carbon copies of the same ship as they can. There are a lot of differences of opinion I have with how ships are outfitted, because it never seems that lifecycle costs are taken into account. What is cheap to build may be very expensive to maintain.


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

kp91 said:


> Herb,
> 
> The 99% of the time the horsepower of a motor is essentially the same if it is 120 or 220v. The difference is the current that it draws. On your nameplate for the motor you should see 2 current values for the motor, one for 120v and one for 220v. The simple version of the electrical power formula is P = I x V. The way some motors are made there can be a little difference, but not a ton. A 220v motor may develop more starting torque than a 110v motor, but you probably shouldn't start your table saw under load..... The bigger issue is you can use smaller conductors to the saw, you will be able to run a higher horsepower motor for the same current. That is why 3+HP motors are 220v, and most 110v motors top out at 2HP.
> 
> ...


Thanks ,Doug, for clarifying that, And thanks for the pie chart too, I am going to copy that and hang it in my shop.
Herb


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

kp91 said:


> Herb,
> 
> There are a lot of differences of opinion I have with how ships are outfitted, because it never seems that lifecycle costs are taken into account. What is cheap to build may be very expensive to maintain.


Apparently they aren't considering operating costs either since the saying that nothing is for free is universally true. More wattage to run inefficient lights means more power = higher fuel costs to generate that power. Pretty basic physics.


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