# Explain the differances between a cheap bit and an expensive bit



## sofasurfer (May 30, 2009)

Or maby I should say a high quality and a low quality bit. Or a name brand and a non-name brand bit.

1) As far as I know the most important thing is the carbide. Are differant grades of carbide used? How do I tell if I'm getting quality carbide? Is sharpness super important, since after a couple of uses a sharp edge may not be as sharp as when it was new?

2) Is the body quality important? Am I worried about proper machining? Or type is steel? Or coating? Or tendency to rust?

Please explain why I should spend bigger money per name brand bit as opposed to smaller money for a no name set?


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## Soapdish (Jan 18, 2010)

Good question,I'm glad you asked it, and I will follow this thread with you so I can find some answers to.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi sofasurfer

If you are rich by the higher end bits or if you make a buck with your tools buy the higher end ones, but if you are like most buy the middle of the road bits ,,for your now and than projects.........you will be hard press to wipe out most router bits in your now and than things.
But I will say sometimes you will want the best money can buy and then do so but I will say you will and can break the bank doing so.

I know that's a cop out but it's comes down to the buck for most..
But if you can put out 3000.oo for a table saw or 800.oo bucks for a Festool router or 500.oo bucks for Festool hand power hand saw than router bits are not a big deal..

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sofasurfer said:


> Or maby I should say a high quality and a low quality bit. Or a name brand and a non-name brand bit.
> 
> 1) As far as I know the most important thing is the carbide. Are differant grades of carbide used? How do I tell if I'm getting quality carbide? Is sharpness super important, since after a couple of uses a sharp edge may not be as sharp as when it was new?
> 
> ...


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## CanuckGal (Nov 26, 2008)

Yes there are different grades of carbide that do make better bits. You can find a chart of carbide grades here.
A better grade of carbide will have a better finish and will be sharper. But yes *all* bits dull with use.
You can also find more technical information on carbides and steels from Carbide Processors.

For everyday routing, your middle of the road bits are probably a good choice. If I was going to do a special project, like make my own kitchen cabinets, I might opt to pay for a better bit. It's a personal choice in my opinion.


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## Mike Wingate (Apr 26, 2009)

1.Quality of Carbide.
2.Thickness of Carbide.
3.Quality of brazing Carbide to shank.
4. Balance of bit.
5.Concentricity of bit and bearings if fitted.
6.Quality of bearings and attachment bolt.

I started off with HSS bits. Then found some really good Israeli made bits. Then Trend, then NLCS. School generally buys a set of no name Chinese bits every other year. I am still using old but good bits. Buy quality once, buy cheap often. My colleagues really know how to burn bits up. Forcing them into ply and chipboard.


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## xplorx4 (Dec 1, 2008)

Yes there is a difference, I have run some of the middle to upper quality bits and I have run some real cheap bits. I will avoid the cheap ones in the future. One other thing to do is keep your bits clean and free of resin, etc. Care and Sharpening of Router Bits | Router Bit Sharpening & Cleaning has info on bit maintance and cleaner. Anouther is Bit & Blade Cleaner-16oz.-Sommerfeld's Tools For Wood and ON SALE! - Saw Blade/Router Bit Cleaning Kit - Rockler Woodworking Tools. I am sure someone here has a secret formula they use. Just looking at it Rockler has a good sale right now on theirs.


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

*Bit cleaner suggestion*

This is key for me, living in Alaska. This suggestion may carry a different weight for you depending upon your location. Many solvents are "ground shipping only" or require other special shipping that can be expensive. Check on shipping rates or even better, consider buying it when a place offers "free shipping". 

Here, shipping a quart of BBQ starting fluid from Seattle would cost $30-$60 in freight. In that case, you're better off finding a local store (big box or local specialty that orders by the semi trailer load) and having them ship it with their next stock order.

About 35 years ago, while in HS, I was working for an auto parts store and was making a delivery to the local Mercedes dealer. They had a customer in there who was totally p*ssed off; he'd told them to rush the 1 qt. of touch-up paint for his car after a fender-bender. The paint had cost $60, but the freight was $300 because the factory had strapped it to a full-sized pallet and put it on a truck.

Just a heads-up that freight may not be your friend!


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## jschaben (Jun 21, 2009)

BigJimAK said:


> About 35 years ago, while in HS, I was working for an auto parts store and was making a delivery to the local Mercedes dealer. They had a customer in there who was totally p*ssed off; he'd told them to rush the 1 qt. of touch-up paint for his car after a fender-bender. The paint had cost $60, but the freight was $300 because the factory had strapped it to a full-sized pallet and put it on a truck.
> 
> Just a heads-up that freight may not be your friend!


:sarcastic: I can just imagine what the truck driver hauling that quart of paint on a pallet was thinking:sarcastic:


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## laxknut (Oct 17, 2008)

What Mike said pretty much covers it, I would add two items to the list:
1. Shank length, most of the cheap sets are modestly endowed to say the least. I've seen supposed "good quality" sets with 1,1/8" shanks. It is no fun having to re-purchase the same profile because of a short shaft.
2. Anti kickback design. The larger the bit, the more important this is. The high-end companies rarely design anything but A-K these days. One exception I have found is Whiteside. many of their bits are not A-K. I recently bought their Incra Hingecrafter set and was disappointed with the design. The only reason not to produce a bit A-K I can think of is to save on materials. I have a nice set of Freud cabinet bits from the early '80s and the raised panel bit looks like a propeller. Needless to say, I feed it slowly.
In the end, vibration is the primary cause of kickback, which in turn is the primary cause of router injuries, and better balanced A-K bit is less likely to hurt you. no bit is 100% kickback proof, if it was, it would not cut.
I also don't automatically discard the quality of the bit solely by the location it is produced. Leigh has many of their bits made in Taiwan, but they use Sandvik carbide which is of exceptional quality. MLCS bits are made in China and Taiwan. I have written them asking who they source their carbide from but have received no reply.

Bill


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## DerekO (Jan 20, 2010)

What makes a bit anti-kickback or not? 

All I have is some super cheap menards bit sets at this time so have no clue what a good bit looks like close up or how to tell the difference. All I know is mine yellow ones look like the same yellow that I see of some online, but I am told I am color stupid so could be a totally different color. Not seen any that match the gray set yet


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Most anti-kickback bits have a big chunk of steel right behind or in front of the cutter so the stock can't slip in to the hole behind or in front of the cutter..the norm,just like most saw blades..


http://www.amazon.com/CMT-800-627-11-Tenon-Cutting-Router/dp/B000P4LKH8
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DerekO said:


> What makes a bit anti-kickback or not?
> 
> All I have is some super cheap menards bit sets at this time so have no clue what a good bit looks like close up or how to tell the difference. All I know is mine yellow ones look like the same yellow that I see of some online, but I am told I am color stupid so could be a totally different color. Not seen any that match the gray set yet


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## jlord (Nov 16, 2009)

Link on kickback design

Popular Mechanics Workshop: Router ... - Google Books


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## DerekO (Jan 20, 2010)

Thank you both. I always knew table saw kick back was a problem, didn't know router kick back was a problem until I found this web site.

After looking at that article I think the bits I have are anti kick back. I also think the bits that came with me when I grabbed my brother's craftsman router (both still new in the package) were the old style. I have since misplaced all of those bits and the few times it has been warm enough to be in the garage this winter I have had other things on my mind besides finding them. I do remember that there were several cutters that could be put on the same pole (not all at the same time) and lots of small pieces that were easy to misplace.


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## istracpsboss (Sep 14, 2008)

Has anyone any pointers as to what the blade cleaning products are chemically, or whether they are similar to anything else, please?

I haven't seen any for sale here and I fancy trying to pull them the way I usually pull stuff may be problematical, as they are a liquid and would have to come by air.

If it turns out they are fundamentally alcohol, I can source that cheaply and easily at around a buck a pint locally! I used to have carbon tet, but that's banned now as it's carcinogenic. Solvents for things like Hammerite, I can get locally, if that were any use.

Does anyone know? The hazard labelling should give some sort of clue.

Cheers

Peter


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Peter

I use the two items below, they both work very well 
I can't tell what's in the cleaner but it will clean many items like the smoke stains from cigs. and tar off the truck, it will not burn or to say flame up a match so to say it must not a be a dinosaur (oil) base item.

Bit & Blade Lubricant-2 oz.-Sommerfeld's Tools For Wood

Bit & Blade Cleaner-16oz.-Sommerfeld's Tools For Wood

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## xplorx4 (Dec 1, 2008)

Peter I use the same as BJ, works great but what it is ??? I could tell you what it smells like, but???


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## istracpsboss (Sep 14, 2008)

Tar off the truck may be a clue. There are things I can get down here in auto accessory places that do that. I think I've even got some. I'll have a play.

Cheers

Peter


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## sofasurfer (May 30, 2009)

I use paint thinner on my saw blade. Go over it with a brass brush.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Pete

it's cleans the pitch off and puts a light film of teflon on the bit so the bits/blades will not rust in storage,I think it's a water base item ..

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istracpsboss said:


> Tar off the truck may be a clue. There are things I can get down here in auto accessory places that do that. I think I've even got some. I'll have a play.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Peter


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## jlord (Nov 16, 2009)

I use CMT 2050 Bit & blade cleaner. I have seen other products suggested to clean bits & blades to use 409, simple green extreme, washing soda (not baking soda). I have not tried these other products so don't know how well they work. For bits I spray them in a little bowl, & for the saw blades I use a 5 gallon plastic lid. Spray, brush with a tooth brush or equivalent & rinse with water.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

istracpsboss said:


> Tar off the truck may be a clue. There are things I can get down here in auto accessory places that do that. I think I've even got some. I'll have a play.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Peter


Hi Peter:

I pulled up the MSDS data sheet for a product I got at Rockler in the 'States. It is at ...

http://www.rockler.com/tech/RTD20000309AA.pdf

it seems like a collection of different acids in small quantities. None of which seem to be terribly common.


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## istracpsboss (Sep 14, 2008)

Hi Ron

Thanks a lot for that. That was really useful. The ingredients appear to be the same as two household products that I already have. I'd suspected the possibility. Why bother specially formulating and manufacturing a product when you can buy in some industry standard one in bulk and just repackage it? I'm going to check on the proportions in the Lidl W5 multipurpose degreaser.

Apart from the cost saving (under 2 bucks for 750ml), we just can't get the proprietary products here and they would have to be imported, which was why I wondered if we already had it but under a different description. 

I once sat up all night on a ferry with a guy whose business was buying in standard chemicals and re-marketing them in small bottles for various purposes. It was most illuminating !

Cheers

Peter


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

istracpsboss said:


> That was really useful.


Hey, glad I could help. I got lucky this time.


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## Hamlin (Dec 25, 2005)

Just be sure to remove any bearings if only cleaning your bits. A cleaner isn't necessarily a lubricant.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Hamlin said:


> Just be sure to remove any bearings if only cleaning your bits. A cleaner isn't necessarily a lubricant.


Good to hear from you Ken:

Ok, how does one clean the bearings? I'm always losing bearings to dirt. Can't seem to get them clean and lubricated enough. I now buy bearings in batches of 6.


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## Hamlin (Dec 25, 2005)

Hi Ron,

I like to "soak" my bearings in a lube any where from 24hrs - 48hrs. Rocklers, Woodcraft and a few others sell "lube kits". I know some will say, use a syringe an inject lube into bearings, this would work but, it still leaves an opening in the side of the bearing into which dirt, debris will enter and destroy a bearing. Soaking has been the best solution that I've found. 

I soak my bits in a cleaner, and soak my bearings in a lube. I'll use 2 different containers, preferably plastic, one for cleaning of the bit and the other for the bearing(s). I know they have spray on type of cleaners, something about the residue of the cleaner floating around kinda bothers me. An OCD thing for me. 

This is just my method, not saying it's correct, just saying, it works for me. 

HTH


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Hamlin said:


> Hi Ron,
> 
> I like to "soak" my bearings in a lube any where from 24hrs - 48hrs. Rocklers, Woodcraft and a few others sell "lube kits". I know some will say, use a syringe an inject lube into bearings, this would work but, it still leaves an opening in the side of the bearing into which dirt, debris will enter and destroy a bearing. Soaking has been the best solution that I've found.
> 
> ...


Hi Ken:

Thanks. That's a start. I've been cleaning bits in the stuff I got at Rockler but throwing away the bearings after they seize. Well, I'll try soaking the bearings now ;-)


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## istracpsboss (Sep 14, 2008)

Hamlin said:


> Just be sure to remove any bearings if only cleaning your bits. A cleaner isn't necessarily a lubricant.



Thanks Ken. Yes, the thought had occurred to me ! If it degreases it will likely strip the lubricant out.

Cheers

Peter


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

The bearings are the sealed type 

==



istracpsboss said:


> Thanks Ken. Yes, the thought had occurred to me ! If it degreases it will likely strip the lubricant out.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Peter


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## George II (Nov 8, 2007)

Freud rep told me to soak my bits in kerosene to get them clean. Of course after removing the bearings...Common sense again..
George Cole
"Regulae Stultis Sunt"


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## morgantruce (Dec 21, 2009)

istracpsboss said:


> I once sat up all night on a ferry with a guy whose business was buying in standard chemicals and re-marketing them in small bottles for various purposes. It was most illuminating !



I used to work in the front office of a plant that manufactured a _very_ well-known brand of household lubricating oil which was put up in small tins with narrow red spouts -- not mentioning any names here. 

Curious to see how this particular product was "manufactured" I took a little tour through the plant... and discovered that the *only ingredient* that went into all these little cans came from a 55-gallon drum that was labeled _"ESSO Light Machine Oil"_. A pallet of other such drums were nearby--patiently waiting their turn to be _magically transformed_ into the familiar little product found in just about every home. Of course, the packaging machine that filled these cans and applied the little caps was fascinating, incredibly noisy, and FAST!

Most of us use such small quantities of stuff like this, we are more than willing to pay for the convenience of _not_ having to deal with 55-gallon drums--or even quarts.


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## The Cheapest Chippy (Feb 3, 2010)

With modern manufacturing techniques I doubt there's much difference between the quality of mid and high end router bits. The better the carbide, the longer the bit will last. You have to ask yourself how often you are going to use them and on what material before you decide to buy. Man made materials are hard on any bits so I personally would prefer to buy a pack of five 'disposable' bits than just one 'good' bit - which will wear anyway - no matter how much you pay for it. You can reduce wear on bits anyway by keeping them clean and using the appropriate speed for size of cutter/material. If the wood burns you're going too fast.


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## Hamlin (Dec 25, 2005)

There IS a difference. It's called quality. You may say, they're made the same, again, no, they aren't. Cheap bits are made the quick, easy and fast method with poor quality control checks and of poor quality material. The higher end bits are made from better material and with far better quality and a standard QC checks. Brazing of the carbide, and again, back to the quality of material being used to create the bit, this coupled with quality control specs, this is your difference.


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## DerekO (Jan 20, 2010)

Still need to buy cheap ones to get going  Or at least I do.

The way it normally goes here is buy cheap to start out and make sure that the tool (or other object) is what is needed. Then if it is liked and gets a lot of use an upgrade is thought about and saved up for. Most of the time so far except for drills and my old table saw I have been satisfied with the cheaper equipment. I upgraded to the C3 Craftsman 19.2 1/2" drill (various inexpensive 18v, wanna buy some?  ) this Christmas (present, duped the return led to the next purchase) a Craftsman table saw (from a menards pro-tech piece of junk..for sale too) (store credit and price was right) and to the Ryobi router/table combo (from using my brother's old ring base Craftsman...or actually not using since I disliked the router, but like what a router could do...gotta give this one back). 

So far just cheap menards bits, but hoping to spend a bit more and get a rail and stile set that Bob saw on ebay and possibly one of the sets of multiple bits he led me to from another post to some one else.

(and if any one hasn't noticed that I seem to ramble on, it happens more often depending on how many pain pills were recently taken...the worse pain day, the more I end up rambling on during the few hours I am awake. )


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## morgantruce (Dec 21, 2009)

We tend to think of tools as those things that are out in the shop or garage. Think for a minute: the most used tools in any household are _kitchen_ tools. Every time we eat we use them (unless you like to eat out all the time.) The worst mistake anyone can make is to go and buy a set of kitchen utensils from WalMart. Such junk will remind you of their unsuitability each and every time you cook a meal.

Most restaurant supply stores will also carry a good assortment of kitchen utensils that are scaled down a bit in size from the large tools that are used in a commercial kitchen. Whenever young people get married, _this_ is where I go shopping for a gift assortment---because I know these things will be a pleasure to use and will last a lifetime of household use.

Unbranded restaurant supply tools are even many times better than the very expensive junk from big-name chefs who sell their name as a marketing ploy. Even if you have little interest in cooking, spend some time in a restaurant supply store; I guarantee you will find some things you _must have._ This is just in the nature of anyone who appreciates good tools.


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## Mike Wingate (Apr 26, 2009)

I have just recieved a set of Trend 1/2" cutters. 15 for £30.No idea where they are made.
http://www.trend-uk.com/en/UK/product/TT_SS9X1_2TC/2/117/ttech_15_piece_starter_cutter_set_12"_.html
The carbide is thick, the shanks are shiny, the bearings seem good, the brazing, painting and polish all good.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Mike Wingate said:


> I have just recieved a set of Trend 1/2" cutters. 15 for £30.No idea where they are made.
> http://www.trend-uk.com/en/UK/product/TT_SS9X1_2TC/2/117/ttech_15_piece_starter_cutter_set_12"_.html
> The carbide is thick, the shanks are shiny, the bearings seem good, the brazing, painting and polish all good.


Mike:

This is frustrating as H-ll! I go to the Trend site and they're somewhere in Western Canada and they refer to a web site as their "Canadian representative." Go to the site and you can't even find Trend products. Yet, you go to the corner hardware store and you can get all kinds of great Trend products, supposedly from Canada. Go figure


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## morgantruce (Dec 21, 2009)

allthunbs said:


> Go figure


If you're trying to make sense of any product's delivery channels---forget about it!

I remember driving through mile upon mile of orange groves in California looking at trees heavily laden with beautiful oranges. Yet, in every grocery store I stopped at, there was not a single orange to be had in their produce sections.


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

morgantruce said:


> If you're trying to make sense of any product's delivery channels---forget about it!
> 
> I remember driving through mile upon mile of orange groves in California looking at trees heavily laden with beautiful oranges. Yet, in every grocery store I stopped at, there was not a single orange to be had in their produce sections.


You were just shopping in the wrong place, Gene... You should have done like the local kids probably did and been shopping in the orchard! <j/k>


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## morgantruce (Dec 21, 2009)

Yeah.... and I wonder how easy it is to find any smoked salmon in an Alaska grocery store?


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Mike

It's good bet if they cost $3.30 ea.they are made in China , many of the members got in on the deal 4 bits in a Neat box for 10.oo bucks I was amazed how great the bits are, I only got two sets but I wish now I got 20 sets of them.. a 20/20 thing..very high end China bits. 

So to say it pays off big time by reading the posted items on the forum, Bob N has posted some great deals.
http://www.routerforums.com/bargain-bin/16792-what-deal-router-bits.html
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Mike Wingate said:


> I have just recieved a set of Trend 1/2" cutters. 15 for £30.No idea where they are made.
> http://www.trend-uk.com/en/UK/product/TT_SS9X1_2TC/2/117/ttech_15_piece_starter_cutter_set_12"_.html
> The carbide is thick, the shanks are shiny, the bearings seem good, the brazing, painting and polish all good.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

BigJimAK said:


> You were just shopping in the wrong place, Gene... You should have done like the local kids probably did and been shopping in the orchard! <j/k>


You obviously haven't been half way across the orchard fence running from the farmer and suddenly find your butt full of rock salt. That stuff stings for days. I swear, I could give birth now and not feel a thing. Dare not tell my folks for fear I'd get worse from them. Talk about suffer.


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## DerekO (Jan 20, 2010)

morgantruce said:


> Unbranded restaurant supply tools are even many times better than the very expensive junk from big-name chefs who sell their name as a marketing ploy. Even if you have little interest in cooking, spend some time in a restaurant supply store; I guarantee you will find some things you _must have._ This is just in the nature of anyone who appreciates good tools.


This is one place I have always tried to convince Her to go to. I remember we did once when we needed silverware. I tried to get Her to go when I wanted some larger ounce drinking glasses. I wish I could convince Her to buy pots and pans at one as it seems She always is unhappy with whatever set we now have and I know a lot of money was spent on at least one set. That set was at least 2 or 3 sets ago. This is over only 25 years of being together with part of that time She was still living with her parents. Back then I could have afforded the good stuff too


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## CanuckGal (Nov 26, 2008)

Oh I love my Lagostina pots and pans and silverware. Paderno are a good brand too. I am a sucker for Henckle knives and kitchen gadgets. (The professional ones with the Twins on them). Quality cookware is almost better then quality tools. (I said ALMOST!  )


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## istracpsboss (Sep 14, 2008)

I'm with you on quality kitchen stuff. Lagostina S/S pans, Wagner cast iron ones. My Victorinox and Swibo Swiss Knives are all catering standard. I started using commercial kitchen suppliers years ago.
Some cheapie stuff creeps in. I've Indian made S/S mixing bowls and colanders and I picked up some Romanian made enamelled cast iron oven dishes that were a tiny fraction of the price of the French Le Creusot ones. Having said that, I sorted through the pile for the best ones. Not all of them were brilliant.

Cheers

Peter


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