# dumb question



## AaronRC4 (Feb 27, 2012)

I hate to even ask this question but curious what the answer is. I've been using a table mounted 3.5HP Hitachi M12 for many years. Happy with This router and the work it produces.. Just changed the bearings out and its brand new again. Lots of power and it has a built in speed control with feed back to keep speed constant. The plunge guides are super smooth and to change bits I simply pick the router up out of the bench for access.

This router is the plunge type. Not knowing what I was doing years I simply bought and installed it in a bench top cut out. I use this bench for a regular bench top when its not being used as a router station. For a lift I use a scissor type jack the router sits on. Paid about $15-$20 for the jack years ago. No play up or down and it holds the position dead on. 

So my question is-- I notice very expensive Tables for routers and very expensive lifts for the non plunger type. Why does one use this set up instead of a plunge type router? The lifts along cost almost as much as a plunge router plus the same for a table top.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Good question. The lifts are probably a little quicker and easier to adjust. I have an M12 in my table too but I just turn the knob. BJ has one with a cheap electric screwdriver fixed to the adjustment rod. Some people are convinced that you have to have all the bells and whistles to do good work. I would rather spend the money on more bits. That's something you can't work your way around.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

"BJ has one with a cheap electric screwdriver fixed " == ???

Hey ??? ,,, the screwdriver cost more than the router  I only paid 100.oo for the M12 router 

Plus it's not fixed in I can snap it in or out ,to high end of a tool to be just hanging on the router all the time.. plus I have the hand crank that can to do the same job if the driver is being used on some other tool/job.

CTS561, Screwdriver, Cordless, 7.2V

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Cherryville Chuck said:


> Good question. The lifts are probably a little quicker and easier to adjust. I have an M12 in my table too but I just turn the knob. BJ has one with a cheap electric screwdriver fixed to the adjustment rod. Some people are convinced that you have to have all the bells and whistles to do good work. I would rather spend the money on more bits. That's something you can't work your way around.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Sorry Bob,
I thought it was one of those cheap Skil ones.


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## TomE (Dec 17, 2010)

For years I used a PC 7539 a powerful, smooth, electronic feedback, 5 speed plunger mounted in a table using a Rousseau plate 'cause I needed the different sized inserts.
The table was homebrew, two layers 3/4" lumber core cab grade ply covered with laminate.

Adjusted the router height using a knob kit that replaced the depth stop on the router. Changing height was two handed job, unlock and turn knob below the table while trying to eyeball above. Changed out bits by lifting out the ~20 lb unit out of the table and plopping it back down.

I have a separate router "station" that is ready when needed, no bench to clear and setup, can also use the router table as additional bench if needed.

If I needed the big plunger for free hand, had to take it out reinstall the depth stop, check for dust in spring tubes and most times dismount the table plate.

First fence (for this table) was a lumber core ply thing with a glued on vac port, clamped to table. Second was Rousseau double face, slot bolted to table. Third fence was Incra Wonder.

Worked with this a long time.

New job called for heavy plunge cuts by hand and big profile edging at the table, ran across package deal for PC 7518 motor with lift, got it. Lift plate was smaller than old plate, needed to fill in table hole and get to work. Soon discovered the benefits of table top height adjustment and bit change.

The ol' table top was getting ragged, the fill in for the lift plate was wearing, the wonder fence was nice but a little disappointing for dust extraction.

Kreg table top and T Square fence was next upgrade. The lift fit perfectly, the fence is guick to setup, the dust port is right behind the bit and I discovered the benefits of a miter/t-track. Added a dust bucket later for the 4" pipe below and 2" pipe at the fence. All is atop of my original homebrew mobile stand.

Current setup is faster all around, fine adjustments are much easier, dust extraction is very good, feather boarding is nicer, coping cuts are safer and more accurate and frankly, it's real nice not having to lift that thing out to swap bits. My big plunger is still ready anytime I need it.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

"Why does one use this set up instead of a plunge type router? "

I've been asking this very question almost from the day that I became a member of this forum.. In the 37 years that I've been using routers, I can't recall a single project that could have been faster or better had I used a fixed base router. A plunge router can do everything that a fixed base one can but NOT visa versa. I've never understood why America is so far behind the rest of the world when it comes to routers, and whilst I'm back on my soap box, not fully metric!


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

TomE said:


> For years I used a PC 7539 a powerful, smooth, electronic feedback, 5 speed plunger mounted in a table using a Rousseau plate 'cause I needed the different sized inserts.
> The table was homebrew, two layers 3/4" lumber core cab grade ply covered with laminate.
> 
> Adjusted the router height using a knob kit that replaced the depth stop on the router. Changing height was two handed job, unlock and turn knob below the table while trying to eyeball above. Changed out bits by lifting out the ~20 lb unit out of the table and plopping it back down.
> ...


These shots show my method of bit change/height adjustment. The Triton router raises above even this thick cast iron table and the easily made foot operated height adjustment makes for an excellent system. The latest version of this router even has an above table hand crank making even the foot control obsolete.


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## AaronRC4 (Feb 27, 2012)

Some very enlightening comments here. I too had a problem with fouled guides until I got my Cyclone DC. The router sits down inside a box and until the addition of 6" duct work the box filled up with saw dust and made a mess of the router.. The fence also had a dust pickup but didn't do much. Dust will wreck your lungs. 

I did a search of YouTube for automatic router raisers. Worth looking at and some good ideas. There is a whole bunch of them along with all sorts of ideas. At the same time I came across a DIY automatic blast gate for DC's. The assembly uses a $15.00 Harbor Freight drill for the actuator. Not sure of the URL but Google-- blast gates automatic You Tube . 

I might motorize my scissor jack for $15.00 with Harbor Freight. That would be really cool.

What I really need is a digital display. Anybody have one? Amazon sells one for about $ $30 or so.


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## KenBee (Jan 1, 2011)

harrysin said:


> "Why does one use this set up instead of a plunge type router? "
> 
> I've been asking this very question almost from the day that I became a member of this forum.. In the 37 years that I've been using routers, I can't recall a single project that could have been faster or better had I used a fixed base router. A plunge router can do everything that a fixed base one can but NOT visa versa. I've never understood why America is so far behind the rest of the world when it comes to routers, and whilst I'm back on my soap box, not fully metric!


So what you are saying Harry is that I should break out my brand new un-used PC plunge base and place it on my extra PC 892 router and discard my other fixed base routers as worthless toys? Come to think about it I do have a nice Ridged plunge router that I plan on giving a workout later today by routing a couple of 24 inch long T-Track grooves across my work bench.

As far as the Metric system goes I am still trying to learn the Imperial measurement system after 70 some years.  All joking aside are you aware that several years ago there was a push in the US of A to replace the Imperial system to Metric? Evidently there was such a negative outcry that the plan was scrapped as a bad idea.

Another thing about this post as well as many others in the forum....Why do people title their posts as "Dumb Question" or something along those lines? There is absolutely no such thing as a dumb or stupid question, only dumb or stupid answers/responses.


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## Big Steve (Feb 12, 2012)

The only dumb question is the one that goes unasked.


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## theexpozay (Oct 4, 2011)

Because we like adding dissimilar fractions? The better question is why do Canadians and Brits still sometimes use imperial when their countries have switched to metric?? My best friend is Canadian and he measures speed in kph and does carpentry in imperial.


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## KenBee (Jan 1, 2011)

Big Steve said:


> The only dumb question is the one that goes unasked.


Also true...As proof positive of that I ruined a wing panel on an airplane I was working on in Vietnam because I didn't ask how to do so and so. A co-worker that was the spitting image of Colonel Sanders used that exact analogy when coming to my aid. Never forgot that or the dumb question analogy either.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

theexpozay said:


> Because we like adding dissimilar fractions? The better question is why do Canadians and Brits still sometimes use imperial when their countries have switched to metric?? My best friend is Canadian and he measures speed in kph and does carpentry in imperial.


Because all the materials and tools we use are used both here and there. The US is our largest trading partner still (I think, China is very close now). Most of the lumber and sheet material is sold in the US although many mills are now able to produce metric sizes as well. We use the same power system, i.e. 120volt and 60 hertz. No one else does so we wind up with all the same power tools.

Harry opened up this can of worms once before and it went for on for quite a while. I happened across something during that one that was interesting. I believe the article said that early in the 2nd WW, the US was helping to produce parts for .303 and 30-06 rifles. But the US and Imperial inches were slightly different and the parts were not that compatible. So the decision was made to unify the inches and the standard became 1"= 25.4mm. So for the last 70 years the inch has been metric based. Eventually the rest will catch up.Most people lining in the States probably don't realize it but most of your exports are sold in metric measure already.


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## TomE (Dec 17, 2010)

harrysin said:


> These shots show my method of bit change/height adjustment. The Triton router raises above even this thick cast iron table and the easily made foot operated height adjustment makes for an excellent system. The latest version of this router even has an above table hand crank making even the foot control obsolete.


Nice, in my case the router table did not show up in my shop 'til long after my overarm pin router and small shaper were in use. The cast iron shaper could only handle verticle panel raisers and the need for large diameter panel raisers was cause for me to build my table around the big plunger. 

The evolution of my table is finally at the stage of control similar to the shaper but with better dust control. The small shaper and cutter set is now my son in laws and can't quite justify a big shaper.

Upgrading the table with lift and motor was very pragmatic, based on specific need for a job, needed big plunger and the table set for use simultaneously. Costs for the upgrades were mitigated by the job and subsequent works performed.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Michael; Charles answers it nicely. Imperial doesn't impose the use of fractions on us; we do that voluntarily. Engineers, surveyors, and machinists use Imperial decimals as a matter of course. An Engineers scale is in 10ths/100ths not 32nds. There never WAS a rational reason to switch to Metric other than a Eurocentric desire to move away from the US, on the part of Pierre Elliot Trudeau, our (US hating) Prime Minister at the time. I believe the feeling was mutual... 
Metric Conversion Orwell


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## KenBee (Jan 1, 2011)

In relation to what Charles said, if you look at the label on most products you will see the Metric equivalent in parentheses along side or below the Imperial measurement. As I understand it there are two reasons for that. One is for export to Metric speaking countries and the other is for Metric speaking immigrants or tourists in the U. S. of A.

Most of my scales (rulers) have 1/64 and 1/32 on one side, 1/10 and 1/100 on the other side from my years working as an inspector on aircraft where 100 thousands is a standard measurement. Aircraft blueprints rarely use fractions so I still do most of my self generated work using the decimal measurement, mostly because it is easier to break down 10ths and 100ths than fractions and also just a habit after so many years. Another thing I can't do is write legibly in long hand except my signature. I have to print everything after filling out thousands of quality control forms that required all information to be printed in black ink. Also to me a drill bit is a drill and a drill is a drill motor. I still find myself going into a store and if I ask for help in finding a drill I am escorted to the drill motor display rather than a drill bit display.

The point I am trying to make is, you can't teach an old dog new tricks such as learning the Metric system or break a 30 year habit as in using the more commonly accepted nomenclature for tools I used in the aircraft field. I understand the Metric system is less complicated and is much like the Imperial decimal system when using basic math, but as old as I am I would probably die before mastering the Metric system.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Ken, there is nothing to master in becoming familiar with the metric system. The math we learned is base 10 and so is the metric system. The problem is that if someone gives you a metric measurement, you aren't able to visualize what that means. 

There are lots of people in Canada that aren't very familiar with metric either. I worked in a cabinet shop a few years ago that was run by an Englishman. All the plans we worked with were totally in metric. He hired a new counter top maker and the first question he asked was "how long is that in inches". I tried to explain to him that it didn't matter what it was in inches, just read the metric part of the tape measure. I don't know if he ever figured it out or not.
Metric, like decimal imperial, is much easier to work with and a person is less likely to make measuring errors using it. In any case, in one more generation here there will be few left who remember imperial measure. When my kids were still young and in school, I mentioned something to them in inches and I had to show them how much that was. They know imperial now but the newer generations aren't going to bother at some point.


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## AaronRC4 (Feb 27, 2012)

*Dumb question Redux*

Another dumb question, How come they are talking about Cm and inches here when my question was about Tabletop Plunge routers?


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## billg71 (Mar 25, 2011)

AaronRC4 said:


> Another dumb question, How come they are talking about Cm and inches here when my question was about Tabletop Plunge routers?


NOT a "Dumb Question" at all!! :sold:

I think TomE gave you a very good answer. Yes, there are ways to get around doing the "stoop and look" and the "clean and jerk" but a good lift just makes things soooo much easier. I have the Incra version of the Mast-R-Lift II and it's really a nice piece of machinery. Raises and lowers smoothly, no backlash, has a lock for the height and it's easy to dial in. 

Most of the time I don't even bother to measure bit height for rabbets and grooves, just raise the cutter until it's flush with the table, zero the dial and then it's 1/16" per revolution until I get the height I want. The dial is large enough that you can easily make an adjustment of half a 1/128 and you get repeatability to boot.

Yeah, I could have bought a decent plunge router for what the lift cost But I've got plunge routers and I wanted something I could put a simple, reliable motor in and go on about my business. No holes to bore, no adapter plates, no springs to remove, no fiddly little knob with a shaft and a nut at the bottom. Used a Makita 3612 for years in a table and I wanted something simpler and better.

So I bought a piece of machinery designed specifically to go up and down with precise adjustability(against the pull of gravity) and a motor designed strictly to spin precisely with power. 

Just seemed to make sense to me, YMMV!

Best,
Bill


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

AaronRC4 said:


> Another dumb question, How come they are talking about Cm and inches here when my question was about Tabletop Plunge routers?



hahahaha......rotfl.


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## KenBee (Jan 1, 2011)

AaronRC4 said:


> Another dumb question, How come they are talking about Cm and inches here when my question was about Tabletop Plunge routers?


I am truly sorry I was a contributing factor in hi-jacking your post. It is something I try not to do but every so often something comes up in a post that really isn't about the original question but needs to be expanded upon nevertheless. More importantly, the one thing to consider is, the basic premise of Router Forum is teaching and learning, so if something helpful can be garnered from a post irregardless if it is or isn't relative to the original question should be addressed. It is very much like two or three people talking, how many times does the original subject lead to another question or observation? That in itself makes the forum very similar to a real life situation. 

BTW, I am guilty of hi-jacking my own posts at times. :haha:


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

What Ken said.


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## billg71 (Mar 25, 2011)

Metric v. Imperial has been hashed over in Internet forums more times than the # of grains of sand on any given beach... It's background noise, why degrade the S/N ratio any further?

Harry, one thing I can think of that plunge routers do exceptionally well at, far better than fixed-base routers: they fall over. They're tippy, the handles are too high relative to their center of gravity, they're a PITA to keep vertical. Yeah, they do a lot of things well but I have yet to meet a plunger that handles as well as my old B&D 616 or a plain-Jane PC 690. If you can't control the machine you won't get good results and plungers are 'way harder to control than a good fixed-base router.

As we say Down South, there's more than one way to skin a cat. And they all, ultimately, work equally well....

My $.02 worth,

Bill


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