# Red Oak Nightmare



## OutoftheWoodwork (Oct 4, 2012)

I was asked to route a design (well, words, actually) in a piece of Red Oak. Nothing big or fancy, just a couple words. I've now attempted it FOUR TIMES and to my standards, the results are *not* acceptable. I used brand new carbide (one Freud, one other high-end brand-I forget the name of it,) bits, and the size of the lettering was only 5/8" high, so needless to say I wasn't cutting deep. (Especially since they weren't real "Fanciful" letters, but dressy just the same; being somewhat thin in the lines.) The lines aren't nearly straight, the bits refused to follow instruction (it was like working with an unruly child *or a couple "adults" I know*!!!) What in the blazes is the deal? Insight?


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi

Oak can be nasty sometimes the router bit will was want to take the easy way track,the tracks are in the Oak you can get done by using a template for the pattern you want it stay in..you can use guides or a simple pattern router bit or a inlay set for small work..

...


OutoftheWoodwork said:


> I was asked to route a design (well, words, actually) in a piece of Red Oak. Nothing big or fancy, just a couple words. I've now attempted it FOUR TIMES and to my standards, the results are *not* acceptable. I used brand new carbide (one Freud, one other high-end brand-I forget the name of it,) bits, and the size of the lettering was only 5/8" high, so needless to say I wasn't cutting deep. (Especially since they weren't real "Fanciful" letters, but dressy just the same; being somewhat thin in the lines.) The lines aren't nearly straight, the bits refused to follow instruction (it was like working with an unruly child *or a couple "adults" I know*!!!) What in the blazes is the deal? Insight?


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## OutoftheWoodwork (Oct 4, 2012)

Can't use guides or template on this, Bob. Attached is the pattern in a jpg format so you can see it... I do my patterns freehand; no "template" or guide. Just my own ability. I print out the pattern backwards, then transfer it over to the wood. From there I cut. The finished project to me looks like I did it without a pattern or lines to follow. So disappointed in the outcome.




bobj3 said:


> Hi
> 
> Oak can be nasty sometimes the router bit will was want to take the easy way track,the tracks are in the Oak you can get done by using a template for the pattern you want it stay in..you can use guides or a simple pattern router bit or a inlay set for small work..
> 
> ...


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## Semipro (Mar 22, 2013)

Barb
Agree with BJ red oak heavy grain detail cuts will be really hard to do,you might try white oak or quarter sawn red oak


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## OutoftheWoodwork (Oct 4, 2012)

Semipro said:


> Barb
> Agree with BJ red oak heavy grain detail cuts will be really hard to do,you might try white oak or quarter sawn red oak


Huh??? LOL

And unfortunately, I didn't supply the wood (the first piece... had to buy a second piece because of the results on the first.)

Just asked Ken about it, and he says that's what my second piece was??? drats. Looks like I gotta get out the picture of my horrible work... 

Oh wait! You mean to where the grain is at an angle????


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## OutoftheWoodwork (Oct 4, 2012)

Semipro said:


> Barb
> Agree with BJ red oak heavy grain detail cuts will be really hard to do,you might try white oak or quarter sawn red oak


Okay, well, this is embarrassing, but here's how it come out... the one on the left (I think) was the second piece we bought because of my screw up on the first.)


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Well, not as disastrous as you make it sound, but I certainly understand what the problem is. I have only admiration for the furniture makers in the past who embellished their Red Oak work with carvings, hand done at that!
Sometimes you just have to tell a client "No".
(I pretty much always lived to regret the times I didn't but should have.)


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## Gaffboat (Mar 11, 2012)

I think you're beating yourself up unnecessarily Barb. I'm not sure where you think it went wrong but it looks fine to me. Just consider any glitches in text that small to be what typographers call "embellishments." :yes4:


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## OutoftheWoodwork (Oct 4, 2012)

Dan, I never cut red oak before. And this isn't for a customer, it's for a friend. 

And Oliver, you're too kind


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

Well, on the bright side, looks like you have a couple of pieces to practice with.

I've never routed letters, on anything, but have routed some edges on red oak. I'd say go very, very, slowly - not the bit, but moving the router. Not sure that would do it, but all I can come up with at the moment. Or, perhaps a Dremel would work better, if you have one. 

Does it 'have' to be routed? Or could it be burned?


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## OutoftheWoodwork (Oct 4, 2012)

JOAT said:


> Well, on the bright side, looks like you have a couple of pieces to practice with.
> 
> I've never routed letters, on anything, but have routed some edges on red oak. I'd say go very, very, slowly - not the bit, but moving the router. Not sure that would do it, but all I can come up with at the moment. Or, perhaps a Dremel would work better, if you have one.
> 
> Does it 'have' to be routed? Or could it be burned?


Theo, I can't burn. Never could. Tried & tried & tried. Just can't get the technique of it. 

I had to use my Dremel on the Walnut portion of this to do some of the lettering because my router (trim or otherwise) just wasn't gonna do it. I tried using my Dremel on this, but that was just as bad; I tried going super slow, I tried doing it in multiple passes, I tried slower rpm's, maxing out the rpm's... I can't *TELL* you how disappointed in this one I am... never thought I would have to give it up to the wood. I thought at first that the first piece was too dry, that the second would be a little more giving, but I was wrong there, as well. I'm thinking if I could burn, that would be the better way to go with this one; unless of course he wanted to use a light colored filling on the lettering, of course. I think on the Walnut portion we were gonna fill it in with my colored wood filler. The problem with that is that it's gonna show every single boo boo in the design.

The lesson here, boys n' girls is

Walnut & Read Oak Don't Like To Be Graffitied Upon lol


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

OK, something a bit different.
Chemical Woodburning | MAKE


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## OutoftheWoodwork (Oct 4, 2012)

JOAT said:


> OK, something a bit different.
> Chemical Woodburning | MAKE


Very Interesting, but not so sure I like mixing those chemicals. But thanks anyway *sigh* Oh well - we move forward.


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## CharleyL (Feb 28, 2009)

Have you tried a router pantograph? I'm suggesting this because you could enlarge your text many times larger than the size that you need to cut and set the pantograph to reduce the size back down. You guide the stylus of the pantograph along your enlarged text while the router on the pantograph carves the reduced size into your wood. With the mechanical advantage of the pantograph in your favor it would reduce the movement errors of the router significantly and the wood grain would have less effect on the router movement. Router pantographs can be built.

Building the router pantograph by matthias wandel, - YouTube

A Google search will probably bring up a few more. Sears and Milescraft offer commercialy made versions too.


Charley


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## rwbaker (Feb 25, 2010)

Barb, I've seen your postings and I find it difficult to believe you are having issues.(compliment), but in reading through the thread I did not find a description of the bit; on woods that are strongly grained use the lowest number of flutes and highest speed possible when using a CNC. A good style of bit for this application is a Rockler - Cnc Router Bits - Half-Conical Bits for CNC Carving Machines-Click-N-Carve Bits.

I have used the Chinese version of this on green red oak and it never skipped a beat.

Merry Christmas - Baker


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## rwl7532 (Sep 8, 2011)

Consider sandblasting.
Which can lead to glass etching.


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## OutoftheWoodwork (Oct 4, 2012)

rwbaker said:


> Barb, I've seen your postings and I find it difficult to believe you are having issues.(compliment), but in reading through the thread I did not find a description of the bit; on woods that are strongly grained use the lowest number of flutes and highest speed possible when using a CNC. A good style of bit for this application is a Rockler - Cnc Router Bits - Half-Conical Bits for CNC Carving Machines-Click-N-Carve Bits.
> 
> I have used the Chinese version of this on green red oak and it never skipped a beat.
> 
> Merry Christmas - Baker


Well thank you Richard for the compliment. But I'm not that good


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Part of the problem, I think, is that the lettering has seriffs and is angled (like italics) so you are coming at the wood trying to move the router diagonally across very strong grain. The sample posted by semipro is about as fine as you're going to get at 5/8ths, and notice it is sans (without)seriffs and the lines don't wander, they mostly go with or against the grain. I think you are using the wrong wood for this and might consider using something harder, less grainy and more dense, and then staining it as close as you can to oak. The client will have to approve a change in type face, but the material and typeface I think are incompatible. Just my opinion.


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## OutoftheWoodwork (Oct 4, 2012)

rwl7532 said:


> Consider sandblasting.
> Which can lead to glass etching.


Wow Ralph that's some gorgeous work! But y'all seem to think I have money to get the machines for some elaborate beautiful work :lol: I'm a pauper playing a game with what little tools she has to get the best look she can. :lol:

But you can bet if I had the funds I would have a couple big tools like a sandblaster cuz I've seen what they can do. My next toy though will be a lathe (after a new laptop. Mine is on his last legs quite literally and if he goes I'm done. No more cutting for me) :cray:


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## OutoftheWoodwork (Oct 4, 2012)

Not a client Tim but a good friend and it's a project he's making that has a lot of meaning. The two woods together he chose makes the whole thing


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## rwl7532 (Sep 8, 2011)

Small sandblaster, small compressor can do lots of small items.
I believe CNC was referenced for the type of bit not the machine.


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## OutoftheWoodwork (Oct 4, 2012)

rwl7532 said:


> Small sandblaster, small compressor can do lots of small items.
> I believe CNC was referenced for the type of bit not the machine.


Yeah well still takes money Ralph. Something I don't have.


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

OutoftheWoodwork said:


> But y'all seem to think I have money to get the machines for some elaborate beautiful work :lol: I'm a pauper playing a game with what little tools she has to get the best look she can. :lol:


No prob. If you have a compressor, you can rig a small sandblaster. Plenty of info out there on Al Gore's worldwideweb on how to do it.


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## Dziadek1 (Dec 7, 2013)

Gaffboat said:


> I think you're beating yourself up unnecessarily Barb. I'm not sure where you think it went wrong but it looks fine to me. Just consider any glitches in text that small to be what typographers call "embellishments." :yes4:


Part of the beauty of custom work is just this! Now how to make it look right is up to the craftyness of the artist!


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## mailee (Nov 11, 2005)

I can appreciate your problem Barb as I have had similar ones in the past. You didn't mention if you scored the letters first? Whenever I rout a sign I always use a craft knife to score around the letters before I start routing them out. (I have also made signs from red oak) When you start routing out the letters the wood 'peels' away from the scored edge giving a clean finish. All that is required is to break the top fibres with the knife and it should give you a good edge. HTH.


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## rwl7532 (Sep 8, 2011)

That's a great idea, scoring the letters.


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## L Town Graphics (May 24, 2012)

OutoftheWoodwork said:


> Okay, well, this is embarrassing, but here's how it come out... the one on the left (I think) was the second piece we bought because of my screw up on the first.)


Barb, considering all of the lead up reading it looks good. I have worked with red oak more than once and I do agree it is not very cooperative. From what I see there is no reason to do another redo.


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