# Probotix Nebula



## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

We have further success on the setup!!!!!! Yay !!!!!

Seems it was the game controller not making contact with the computer. Ended up having to plug it in a front port and changing a setting on the bottom side of it. Had to email a list of files to Len and he figured it out.

Now ............ I got to hide a bunch of wires and put boxes and stuff out of the way and start getting serious on learning how to use this thing. It's getting scary.

I'm sure Len called me a name or two when we ended today's "session." I gave him a good excuse to have a good stiff drink before quitting time.

Got to call him back later when I get the equipment straightened out.

HJ

One more step on the trail of the great unknown


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## 4DThinker (Feb 16, 2014)

honesttjohn said:


> We have further success on the setup!!!!!! Yay !!!!!
> 
> Seems it was the game controller not making contact with the computer. Ended up having to plug it in a front port and changing a setting on the bottom side of it. Had to email a list of files to Len and he figured it out.
> 
> ...


Glad to hear your Nebula has come to life! Looking forward to your progress reports. For future owners of the Comet/asteroid/meteor/nebula line any pictures you can post would be great to see. 

4D


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

You just keep asking for hard stuff. I got to see what I can get my Blackberry to do. I can only absorb so much of this "new" techie stuff in a specified period of time.

HJ

Treading on thin ice ... and knows it!!!


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## cjskelton (Feb 27, 2015)

Congrats, HJ! Glad things are going your way now. I'd like to see a photo or two as well. Can't wait to get my own Probotix CNC.


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

Jay,

Got to figure out what to do next. Talking to Len again in the morning after I see if I can fire it up without screwing anything up.

Once somebody shows me how to do something I can usually take it from there. But I need to be led by the hand for a little while.

Seriously, I'm real nervous about this. 

Will keep you posted on what transpires.

HJ

Hope I can get something made before you do.


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## 4DThinker (Feb 16, 2014)

Btw, John... My game controller only works when plugged into one of the front ports as well. That is also true for the Meteor we have at the University.


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

It all fired up ok today. Now I'm trying to figure out this Cut 2D program and make a simple something - sign, part, etching, engraving, supper. Anything just to see it cut. Probably going for a sign - got a 4 x 12 piece of MDF stuck to the bed just begging to be turned into dust.

I'm guessing the most used bits will be the 1/8 and 1/4 ones.

HJ


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## 4DThinker (Feb 16, 2014)

if you are using cut2D, then Vectric has several tutorial videos on their site. 

Cut2D

If signage is what you intend to do most of the time, then I strongly suggest upgrading to VCarve Pro for the difference in the price you paid for Cut2D. Nothing you learn about cut2D will be wasted either. 

http://support.vectric.com/tutorials/V8/VCarveProCategoryIndex.html

4D


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

OK, I "designed" a simple nameplate last nite using Cut2D. Now the 2 questions I have are:

1 - How do you go back to a previous page if you want to change something without starting over/

2 - How do you put the design on a thumbnail turning it to G Code to plug into the CNC?

HJ

Making progress, ........... slowly !!!!


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## 4DThinker (Feb 16, 2014)

honesttjohn said:


> 1 - How do you go back to a previous page if you want to change something without starting over?


CTRL Z on the keyboard will "undo" something you just did. Keep hitting it to step back through what you've done.



honesttjohn said:


> 2 - How do you put the design on a thumbnail turning it to G Code to plug into the CNC?


On the right side there is a toolpath tab. Open that tab. You can click on the "pin" in the upper right corner to keep it open.

From this tool path menu you can pick what you want to do with each of the vectors/lines you've created. There should be a Pocket, a Profile, possible a Drill, and maybe some more "type" of tool path to choose from. 

In the drawing window, click on the line or lines you want to create tool paths for.
In the tool path menu pick the kind of tool path you want to create for those lines.
Once you've created tool paths for all the lines in your drawing that need to be cut, those tool paths can be saved to your thumbdrive. 

Vectric products include a long list of Post Processor for the huge variety of machines and control software out there. When you are ready to save tool paths, look for the EMC2-G64 arcs(inch) in the list. It'll create files with the extension .NGC, which LinuxCNC can open. 

If you bought the tool sensor with your nebula, then Probotix has a custom post processor you should download and use: Using Automatic Tool Length Sensor - PROBOTIX :: wiki

I seriously recommend you watch at least a few of the training videos at vectric.com, and watch them all the way through: 

Cut2D

4D


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

4D,

I have been watching the videos. Trying to make a simple name plate. I think I had it downloaded on the flashdrive, but when I tried to center the axis one track (the up and down one) only moved on one side. Red wire was off a limit control switch, and the ear was broken off. So Len is sending me a new switch.

Looks like I get a break from it til it gets here.

HJ

What I get for trying to work on" "St Paddy's" day instead of drinking


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## 4DThinker (Feb 16, 2014)

Looks like they may be having problems with one (or more) assemblers. The Nebula we have at work was throwing errors on the joint 2 switch (Z axis) during heavy cuts. No broken wires, but one wire wasn't plugged into the limit switch. It was simply trapped against it.


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## cjskelton (Feb 27, 2015)

4DThinker said:


> Looks like they may be having problems with one (or more) assemblers. The Nebula we have at work was throwing errors on the joint 2 switch (Z axis) during heavy cuts. No broken wires, but one wire wasn't plugged into the limit switch. It was simply trapped against it.


Are you saying they are having problems with the person(s) that put the machine together or did you mean assemblies? Just wondering. I plan on ordering mine soon and hope they don't have personnel problems.


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## 4DThinker (Feb 16, 2014)

I don't know enough about their assembly process to say for sure. I imagine they have someone doing the wiring, someone assembling the frame parts, someone programming the LinuxPCs, etc.. I now have three CNCs from them and the Nebula (a special order) is the only one I've had any problem with. That happened to be a limit switch (wiring) that wasn't plugged in. When John mentioned his bad switch (wiring) it seemed (to me) like a point of focus where Probotix could use a little more inspection/testing. I pointed this out to Probotix/Support/Len with a photo of my switch at the time I'd discovered it. I doubt any CNC will leave their shop from now on with a wiring problem. 

They make a good and unique product. I know that orders are increasing and their business is busy. Len told me they had stopped making larger (4x8) custom CNCs simply because they were too busy filling orders for the Comet/Asteroid/Meteor/Nebula. 

I've had far more problems with the 2 CNC sharks I also oversee. These from Probotix are fairly simple devices and have no redundancy built in. When one limit switch fails the system won't complete Homing itself. Len sent me three spare limit switches for my trouble, and it does ease my mind. You want a system with limit switches though, for when they are missing (like on the CNC Sharks) there is no way the controller can warn you if you might be cutting paste the machine limits. I frequently warn my students about this when using the Shark HD 2.0 we have. LinuxCNC, after Homing the Meteor or Nebula, knows the "box" that it can move around in, and will warn you if you've loaded a drawing that wants to cut outside of that box. 

4D


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## cjskelton (Feb 27, 2015)

I noticed that their lead time on delivery is now 12 days. They must be busy! Len told me to give them 2 weeks to make sure they would have it ready for my trip to their shop. I've been busy watching all the new VCarve Pro 8.0 videos. Makes me really anxious to get my Meteor. I think I'll hit the ground running.


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

My switches are sitting at my buddy's shop. Will pick them up today. 

From what I can see - - these switches have 2 wires (black and red) that just have clip plugs on them, held on by 4 little screws. They are on all 4 corners of the machine, and probably the z axis, too (This is still over my head). The wires (only a few inches long) are totally in the open, so they could be pulled and the ends bent when moving the machine, in transit, or getting caught on something while in use. It looks like you don't want to put anything on the table the machine is sitting on, especially along the edges. This could catch the wires and/or bind up the axis movement. Also could have been a bad switch.

4D, I was thinking of just using some electrical tape to keep those wires from hanging down.

Anyway, it looks like I'll take up the fight again this week if that's all it was.

HJ

Appreciates you guys!!


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## 4DThinker (Feb 16, 2014)

There are two switches on each side of the gantry, down behind the bearings. Those are limit 1 (Y axis). There are two switches back-to-back on the gantry behind the router mount. Those are limit 0 (X axis). There is one switch behind the router mounting plate. It is limit 2 (Z axis). 

I have the two Meteors and one Nebula I oversee standing on 4x4 posts, with no table surface under the bed. Just wide stretchers between the posts. You are right to not want anything to get under the CNC edges. 

Our Nebula is having Z-Axis switch troubles. It throws a limit 2 error during heavy cuts. I thought I'd found the problem, but am going to have to do a little more work on it today. 

4D


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## 4DThinker (Feb 16, 2014)

Looks like they soldered instead of crimped on one wire end at my Nebula's Z-Axis switch. A solder glob was keeping the connector from slipping securely onto the switch blade. Took a soldering gun and heated it up to get it to slip all the way on. Hopefully that is the end of limit switch problems for me.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

4DThinker said:


> Looks like they soldered instead of crimped on one wire end at my Nebula's Z-Axis switch. A solder glob was keeping the connector from slipping securely onto the switch blade. Took a soldering gun and heated it up to get it to slip all the way on. Hopefully that is the end of limit switch problems for me.


Wow 4D those are things I wouldn't have thought of . To me it shouldn't have happened at all , but I guess it's human to error .
Thankfully you have such a good understanding of the workings of these CNC RT's


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## 4DThinker (Feb 16, 2014)

I've got a 2 year old Meteor, and we have a 1 year old Meteor at the University. Both have run perfectly since new. The Nebula is a new model for them, with new wiring harness and some new programming required to run. I'm blaming this one flaw with my Nebula on growing pains which I may be partly responsible for. You can't find many reviews out there for this line of their CNCs. I bring them up whenever I see someone ask about getting a CNC for a budget price. I know Probotix is a young company and believe they've outgrown their shop location at least once since they started out. 

It didn't hurt that last summer I was clearing out my store room and had several old printers to get rid of. I decided to strip any motors, screws, springs, rods, etc. from them and when I was done I realized I had nearly enough parts to build my own (small) CNC. I bought the TinyG single-board CNC controller (https://www.inventables.com/technologies/tinyg-cnc-controller) and succeeded in getting my baby CNC designed, built, and working before summers end. All you need to do to understand the inner working of a CNC is to build your own. 

My baby CNC is no award winner though. Not a bad first try. Runs as designed, but after completing it I know several things I'd change if I built another one.

I look around at the other CNCs available though, and don't see any with the unique feature set and potential this line from Probotix has. Jay can testify to the very original and clever joinery we can get from this frame design that 99% of the CNCs out there simply can't do.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

4DThinker said:


> It didn't hurt that last summer I was clearing out my store room and had several old printers to get rid of. I decided to strip any motors, screws, springs, rods, etc. from them and when I was done I realized I had nearly enough parts to build my own (small) CNC. I bought the TinyG single-board CNC controller (https://www.inventables.com/technologies/tinyg-cnc-controller) and succeeded in getting my baby CNC designed, built, and working before summers end. All you need to do to understand the inner working of a CNC is to build your own.
> 
> My baby CNC is no award winner though. Not a bad first try. Runs as designed, but after completing it I know several things I'd change if I built another one.
> .


That's very cool . I did see a YouTube video with a tiny home made one and thought it was pretty neat . I could see it working well for engraving . There was a model jet built in Germany I think it was that won first place and they used what I believe was a cnc engraver (if they exist) to do extremely small engraving on instrument panels.

I almost think that my best opportunity to own a cnc router table is to build it from scratch . Just start collecting parts now and hopefully there not obsolete when I assemble it . To bad I can't weld , but if that's neccessary I could always get someone else to do it . The gantry seems like it would be the hardest part to build . I would definitely want a stable one and not made from wood


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

WE HAVE AN UPDATE ON THE NEBULA !!!!!

In a nutshell ....
The switches came
We had our first grandchild
Got thru a couple of issues.. looks like it all works now
Now it's up to me

The limit switches were sent as promised. Changed them out and made sure all the connectors were tight. Took a break for the grandchild thing, best looking kid ever, of course, and back at it. The Neb still wouldn't home with the y axis (x and z were fine).

Couple of afternoon phone calls to Len along with some pictures (I found out Blackberrys do take pics and can send emails) finally proved fruitful. Y axis wouldn't home in. Ended up being a small 1 inch piece of aluminum sitting on the top of the guide tube (the solid one) against the frame that was holding the y axis from reversing. Removed it and away she went. One thing I can see, DO NOT put anything on the table around the machine and make sure everything is clear.

Len even stayed on the line to check my first test cut - a simple 4 letter name sign - looked over my G code file and walked me thru it step by step. FYI, MDF makes lousy cutting material. But I got to follow the process and watch how it operated.

I didn't want to say anything that I might later regret until this was solved. I know you won't get this kind of personal service and support from China or even most of the bigger companies. During our "bonding" time he even explained what the various parts did, why he set the software the way he did, and anything else I had questions about. I really really do owe him a cold one.

Now it's on to the software and G code thing. Keep your email open 4D and Jay.

That's it for now.

HJ

Hoping to become a nerd now


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## cjskelton (Feb 27, 2015)

Glad things are looking up, HJ. Even though you went through some tough times, it sounds like you learned a lot about how your machine works. That will surely pay off down the line. Now get busy making some sawdust! Post a pic or two of your first projects. I'll be a couple of weeks behind you. Good luck!


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## 4DThinker (Feb 16, 2014)

honesttjohn said:


> Ended up being a small 1 inch piece of aluminum sitting on the top of the guide tube (the solid one) against the frame that was holding the y axis from reversing. Removed it and away she went. One thing I can see, DO NOT put anything on the table around the machine and make sure everything is clear.


I'm VERY curious about this chunk of metal, hj. We had our Nebula running fine, homing fine, cutting fine for awhile. One day a student emailed me to complain the machine wouldn't home. It turned out there was a 3/8" x 3/8" x 3/4" piece of key stock on top of the right Y rail that was keeping that side from touching off. It had scraps of foam double-stick tape on it and looked as if it was put there intentionally. It doesn't look as if it could have been stuck under the plastic guard all along, eventually falling onto the rail and getting pushed to the end. I'd sure love to know how a chunk of metal gets left there from the factory in your case though. I either have a student who tried to sabotage our Nebula, or that keystock *was* there from the factory and just took time to fall onto the rail. 

If they have someone in their factory putting these chunks there that person needs to be fired and charges filed IMO. 

4D


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

4D,

That's exactly what it was. According to Len that was to help steady the plastic guard that runs on both sides. Looks like it has double sticky tape on 2 sides, one for the guard and the other against the machine. Evidently, it let loose and the y axis just pushed it right to the front of the machine and that wouldn't allow it to reverse or home. Len says they don't use them anymore so Jay should be ok with his. So I would say no to one of your students doing anything, although, I suppose, anybody could have put that piece on the track. Check the other side and see if there's one under the plastic guard. I would think a couple of pilot holes and small self tappers would steady the guard if you so desired. It really doesn't do anything that I can see except cover the edges and adds to the look.

Spent a lot of time over 3 days until this was discovered. But like Jay says, I got a little better understanding about the machine. You don't just call a repairman out, got to do it yourself!

Onward and Upward !

HJ

Got to become better acquainted with Mr Linux


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

Rainman,

You saw what Scottart did. Bet he could hook you up with the right parts supplier for whatever you want and either get it all shipped or piece by piece. Remember to get the next biggest size or two cause you'll wish you did down the road.

HJ

got to think ahead


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## 4DThinker (Feb 16, 2014)

The two meteors (mine and the university's) have thin aluminum angle where the new models have that grey plastic angle. My guess is that they realized the plastic sags being only held up at the ends, and the double stick taped metal chunk was a quick fix that failed. Not enough room to screw another support in the middle. The right side supports the cable chain and is probably why it came free first. We daily lift the chain to clean under it. Next time I'm up there I'll look for one on the other side. It will probable fall off eventually and cause the same problem.

4D


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

John I'm happy to hear you've got her up and running . It amazes me how these little things can go wromg , but you've got the bugs out now . I found with my laser to keep the bed clear as when the gantry parks it will bend the gantry if there's an obstacle . Never happened to me but I learned from another guy with the same model

By the way , Congrats of the grandchild


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

*It's making dust !!!*











I did this all by myself, from doing the code, putting it on a flashdrive, and making it happen. May not seem like much, but for this old guy it's what I hope is a baby step heading down a new path. Can't play too much with it this week. All the screwing around put me behind doing the daughter-in-law's sewing cabinet. I'll probably never be as good as Scottart, but darnit, I feel good ....... for right now.

There's a lot to learn about this thing.

HJ 

Finally made some dust !!


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## 4DThinker (Feb 16, 2014)

Wonderful, hj! BTW, it was making GusS not dust.


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## cjskelton (Feb 27, 2015)

Awesome, HJ! Man, that Nebula looks big. Nice first project.


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

Your Meteor will be just as long - just not quite as wide. If I attach the rotary, I have to cut the bed which will then make it the same size as the Meteor. But that's a long ways down the road.

Any idea whose bits you'll be using?? You can get a starter set from Len, but I'm looking to see what else is out there, and for what price.

HJ


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## cjskelton (Feb 27, 2015)

I just ordered my Meteor. It should be ready for me to pick up on the 15th of April. I had them add an extra gantry to the table so that I can split the spoilboard and remove half of it to machine the end of long pieces. 4D had this done to his machines and I liked what you can do with it. I didn't order the tool set from Len. I'm looking at an Amana set from Highlandwoodworkingdotcom. They look more like the bits used in the VCarvePro videos. Highland has the best price that I could find on the Amana set. I'm also thinking of the rotary axis as a future accessory.


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## 4DThinker (Feb 16, 2014)

The extra beam can be positioned anywhere along the frame. On my home Meteor I only have about 1ft of the end open for vertical cuts, but can also lift out the other side for much larger pieces if needed. 

Some photos:
1. My Meteor
2. Simple 4x4 post and plywood base.
3. MDF over T-track. Nylon Screws into threaded inserts.
4. Bit Holder. Frame mount.
5. Open end for vertical (or angled) clamping.

4D


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## Seaorsaw (Mar 8, 2015)

I like your table design. Why is a bottom plate put on the 4x4's?Looks, or so the 4x4 doesn't split as easy?Also can the machine be bolted any deeper onto the 4x4? Seems the bolt is close to the top of the 4x4...Thanks


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## cjskelton (Feb 27, 2015)

That's a clean set up, 4D. I'm getting the tool length sensor installed. I hope that doesn't complicate the removeable spoilboard I have planned.


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## 4DThinker (Feb 16, 2014)

Seaorsaw said:


> Why is a bottom plate put on the 4x4's? Looks, or so the 4x4 doesn't split as easy?Also can the machine be bolted any deeper onto the 4x4? Seems the bolt is close to the top of the 4x4...Thanks


The end plates of the Meteor come with two holes 1/4" up from their bottom. They support the entire CNC. My base is sized so the end plates fall perfectly on the 1/2" x 1/2" notch on the top of the 4x4s and could only move sideways or up. Putting screws through the two holes really just locks the CNC to the base. Nothing more is needed. Stretchers are 10" tall 3/4" plywood screwed/glued flush to the 4x4 posts. Casters could be any size that suits you, or levelers. 

The casters I use have a plate slightly longer than 3.5". That plywood bottom plate screws long into the post, and the casters screw short #12 screws into the plywood.

4D


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## 4DThinker (Feb 16, 2014)

cjskelton said:


> I'm getting the tool length sensor installed. I hope that doesn't complicate the removeable spoilboard I have planned.


The sensor button is flush to the included spoil board, and in a fixed position that matches where linuxCNC expects it to be. If your spoilboard section can lift straight up you should be fine. The router will still travel to the switch even if that frame section is open.


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## cjskelton (Feb 27, 2015)

4DThinker said:


> The sensor button is flush to the included spoil board, and in a fixed position that matches where linuxCNC expects it to be. If your spoilboard section can lift straight up you should be fine. The router will still travel to the switch even if that frame section is open.


Ok. I thought it might be attached to the spoil board. No problem then.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

honesttjohn said:


> I did this all by myself, from doing the code, putting it on a flashdrive, and making it happen. May not seem like much, but for this old guy it's what I hope is a baby step heading down a new path. Can't play too much with it this week. All the screwing around put me behind doing the daughter-in-law's sewing cabinet. I'll probably never be as good as Scottart, but darnit, I feel good ....... for right now.
> 
> There's a lot to learn about this thing.
> 
> ...


That's awesome John . I remember the first time I sent a tool path to my laser as it was pretty exciting to actually see motion happen lol .
It wasn't that long ago that you were working the bugs out ,and now your up and running !


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

4DThinker said:


> The extra beam can be positioned anywhere along the frame. On my home Meteor I only have about 1ft of the end open for vertical cuts, but can also lift out the other side for much larger pieces if needed.
> 
> Some photos:
> 1. My Meteor
> ...


Very nice 4D! 
I really like the way you built it , fairly simple stand but very stable looking . I'm really liking the t track and the open bed part for vertical pieces .
Do they sell the T track parts or is that something that you concocted on your own ?


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## 4DThinker (Feb 16, 2014)

The t-track I got from Leevalley.com. I prefer what they sell as the track will handle 1/4" toilet bolts or 5/16" toilet bolts or 1/4" hex head bolts/nuts. 

The track doesn't come with any screw holes in it, but the MDF holds it down and one flush flat head screw in the center of each keeps them from sliding.

I cut up the original MDF top to drop into the frame. Screwed plywood strips to the inside to make a ledge for that drop-in. Holes for threaded inserts I let the CNC cut. Rockler's brass 1/4-20 inserts have a knife edge and can be easily screwed flush into 3/8" holes. I used nylon 1/4-20 screws to screw down MDF section that have a 3/16" x 5/16" rabbit on the bottom edge to lock over the t-track. When I wear the top a bit I'll surface it with the CNC. I can easy replace a any MDF section that gets chewed up accidentally.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

4DThinker said:


> The t-track I got from Leevalley.com. I prefer what they sell as the track will handle 1/4" toilet bolts or 5/16" toilet bolts or 1/4" hex head bolts/nuts.
> 
> The track doesn't come with any screw holes in it, but the MDF holds it down and one flush flat head screw in the center of each keeps them from sliding.


Well it certainly looks very functional . Great job you did there in my opinion ,as it factory if anything.
I'm understanding the open front concept more and see the advantages of being able to work on a piece vertically

I only wish you were my neighbor lol . Would be nice having guidance on the first build


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

do they have things like clip art that are already set up, and you just have to download them, or does it all require to start from scratch?

HJ

Trying to get a grasp on the next step. Not much of a market for a $6k nameplate.


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## 4DThinker (Feb 16, 2014)

HJ, 

Not sure what "they" you are asking about. I'm using Aspire from Vectric now and it came with a few hundred 2D and 3D "clipart" files you can use for free in your own creations. Both VCarve and Aspire can import almost any digital drawing/photo (bitmap or vectors) and turn it into vector outlines you can use to pocket, profile, carve, or just admire on your PC screen. 

4D


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

By they I mean anybody out in Internetland. I was watching one of the tutorials where the guy created a design from scratch. By the time I did all those steps, especially just starting out, I'd be dead for 6 months already.

I was just hoping that I could find an acceptable design that I could "carve" on the cabinet doors or along the frame of the dil's cabinet I'm working on now. Got to have it done by the middle of next week cause we pack up Thursday nite. Not a necessity, but thought it would be a nice touch. When we get back I'll have all kinds of time to play.

I think I'll get the VCarve trial version and see what's on there. Will probably upgrade from Cut 2D anyway. But Len says he does 95% of his stuff right off of Cut2D, the cheapest version. Course he was a graphic designer for 20+ years and knows how to use it to it's fullest.

HJ

Onward and Upward - with a detour here and there


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## Seaorsaw (Mar 8, 2015)

Vectric which makes Vcarve pro and Aspire has trial versions you can download and play with, and then you can go to their downloads tab on their site and look at free projects... some of them can be run on the trial versions of their programs ( have a green icon) . Some are really nice... there is a small box available which has nice 3d cuts in it...A very nice starting project.


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## 4DThinker (Feb 16, 2014)

Noticed some grumbling vibration on our Nebula today while doing a not-to-aggressive cut in hardwood that ran parallel to the gantry. Using a 1/8" up spiral bit to cut a 1/4" wide slot. I could press back on the Z motor to squelch it. Worse when the router was in the middle of the span. 

I've never seen this on my Meteor or the school's Meteor, and am beginning to think the single 8020 60mmx30mm beam used for the gantry, although stiffened by the linear rails, may not be up to the loads a 2.25hp router can exert cantilevering off the front of the Nebula'a wide span. It doesn't appear to be sagging, but may not be able to completely resist the twist. 

I'll be looking into a way to stiffen it. I see no easy way from examining my Meteor. Perhaps re-arranging what is mounted to the back and adding a stiffening plate to the beam.


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## cjskelton (Feb 27, 2015)

I called today to check on my Meteor build. It should be ready late next week. Hopefully I can pick it up by next Friday. Their lead time now is 15 business days after ordering. Not long ago it was 7. They must be getting some business!


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## 4DThinker (Feb 16, 2014)

cjskelton said:


> I called today to check on my Meteor build. It should be ready late next week. Hopefully I can pick it up by next Friday.


I can feel your building anticipation, cjs. I know I was chomping at the bit when mine took nearly a month to get after order mine. Of course a week of that was shipping time. 

Enjoy the trip there and back. Take a few photos to share of Probotix and the crew if they'll let you. 

4D


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

4D,

If your Meteor is "sagging" with a router, I wonder if the spindle would be the way to go? They're sure a lot more compact, and I assume lighter.

Call Len and let him know. Between the 2 of you brainiacs, you'll find a solution. Maybe we'll get you a CNC consulting gig out of all this. lol

HJ

Will be back and ready to go next week.


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

Jay,

When you get her home let me know. I'll get you my phone # and email if you'll allow it, and maybe we can learn a few things together. Two old codger brains got to account for something positive.

I think I'm going to just go ahead and get the Aspire package and get it over with. I'd end up with it anyway. We'll be back from NC Tuesday so I'll have a little more time to play with mine.

One of us has to do something to impress Scottart, RainMan, and 4D. lol

What day you making the jaunt over to Peoria??

HJ

Onward and Upward -or at least sideways !!


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

honesttjohn said:


> Jay,
> 
> When you get her home let me know. I'll get you my phone # and email if you'll allow it, and maybe we can learn a few things together. Two old codger brains got to account for something positive.
> 
> ...


John I'd appreciate that as I have "attention delicate disorder". My feelings are really hurt when I make a mistake so hopefully you can get threw the preliminary stuff and share it with me once you've got it all figured out


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## 4DThinker (Feb 16, 2014)

honesttjohn said:


> 4D,
> 
> If your Meteor is "sagging" with a router, I wonder if the spindle would be the way to go? They're sure a lot more compact, and I assume lighter.
> 
> ...


I'm thinking about hanging a weight off the backside to counterbalance the router. The wire chain is what mostly blocks the t-slots on the back of the gantry beam, along with the limit switch stops. I could probably undo them all and then mount them on the outside of a metal plate that could be bolted to the beam. Not sure if such a plate would be the best solution to twist though. 

Looks like it would take some new end risers as well as a revised Z-axis mount to just replace the 60x30 beam with something larger, but they do make 60x60 extrusions. If I had to engineer a beefier gantry myself I might take the 60mm x60mm extrusion and turn it 45 degrees, then mount the bearing blocks on the back top and front bottom.

4D


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

4DThinker said:


> I'm thinking about hanging a weight off the backside to counterbalance the router. The wire chain is what mostly blocks the t-slots on the back of the gantry beam, along with the limit switch stops. I could probably undo them all and then mount them on the outside of a metal plate that could be bolted to the beam. Not sure if such a plate would be the best solution to twist though.
> 
> Looks like it would take some new end risers as well as a revised Z-axis mount to just replace the 60x30 beam with something larger, but they do make 60x60 extrusions. If I had to engineer a beefier gantry myself I might take the 60mm x60mm extrusion and turn it 45 degrees, then mount the bearing blocks on the back top and front bottom.
> 
> 4D


4D wouldn't adding weight on top of the gantry just make it tougher for the steppers to keep there accuracy as there doing quick start and stop movements? 
Maybe I'm over thinking this


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## 4DThinker (Feb 16, 2014)

RainMan1 said:


> 4D wouldn't adding weight on top of the gantry just make it tougher for the steppers to keep there accuracy as there doing quick start and stop movements?
> Maybe I'm over thinking this


Nope, you aren't over thinking it. I had the same thought. The controller doesn't do sudden stops/starts at each vector end point but rather accelerates and decelerates along vectors. That is why on short vectors it rarely ever gets up to the programmed feed speed. With an acme threaded rod doing the pushing and pulling the motors have plenty of mechanical advantage. On the Nebulas/new models Probotix rewired the steppers for more torque. Any weight I might try would be as easy to take off as it was to bolt/hang on. I'd run a few accuracy tests with any change I made before trusting it on project cuts.

And of course I could use a heavy weight close to the rail, or a much lighter weight hanging farther off the back. It is a rotational moment I want to cancel anyway, not an up force with a down force. 

4D


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## bgriggs (Nov 26, 2008)

You can test for Twist (deflection) by using a dial indicator some rope and a weight.

Set up the indicator and indicate in the tip of the router bit (pre-load and set to zero). Attach the rope to the bit and Gently lower the weight off the front of the machine. See how much the indicator moves. Repeat the exercise with the weight off the rear of the machine.

You can increase the amount of weight on the bit as long as it doesn't break. This will give you an idea of how much the bit can deflect under load.

One way to stiffen 8020 is to attach steel plates to the front and back.

Bill


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## 4DThinker (Feb 16, 2014)

I've got a dial indicator, and appreciate your tip, Bill. Haven't used it for much but this seems like a great excuse to dig it out. Knowing how much it deflects would be a good starting point. I already know there is _some_ flex there. There will be no plate mounting on the front of the gantry rail the way these Probotix CNCs are designed. One could be bolted to the back of the rail if a few obstructions were relocated.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

honesttjohn said:


> Rainman,
> 
> You saw what Scottart did. Bet he could hook you up with the right parts supplier for whatever you want and either get it all shipped or piece by piece. Remember to get the next biggest size or two cause you'll wish you did down the road.
> 
> ...


I keep going back and forth between a 4'/4' and a 4'/8' . I think a 4'/4' would be a good choice for saving space and not seeming so obtrusive , but sure as heck I'll wasn't a 4'/8' at some point . A 4'/4' would sure fit well beside the laser without much rearranging .
I know the 4'/4' can be upgraded to a 4'/8' , so it's tempting to but the full kit and just assemble half the first go around and keep the rest in storage . If that's in fact how it works ?


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

Rainman,

If you get all the parts now, at least you know that they all fit your setup, and you can expand the bed whenever you want or have the need to. Get it all in one trip and then your prepared for whatever happens next, especially where you're located.

Having all the parts now is better than searching for them later.

HJ

Likes to be ready for what lays ahead


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

honesttjohn said:


> Rainman,
> 
> If you get all the parts now, at least you know that they all fit your setup, and you can expand the bed whenever you want or have the need to. Get it all in one trip and then your prepared for whatever happens next, especially where you're located.
> 
> ...


I agree John , cause you know sure as sh#% that if I decide to expand a five years in the future that there will be some issue with availability . 
I really think a 4'/4' would work well for me as I'm mostly interested in 3D pictures /art etc .
But knowing it could be expanded at a later date will be a bonus

John let me apologize for side tracking yet another thread lol. This should probably be aimed at your table as you started this thread


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

Keep it here. We're all trying to accomplish basically the same thing - gain as much knowledge and abilities to take the next step.

HJ

Hoping you can teach an old dog new tricks


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

honesttjohn said:


> Keep it here. We're all trying to accomplish basically the same thing - gain as much knowledge and abilities to take the next step.
> 
> HJ
> 
> Hoping you can teach an old dog new tricks


Thanks John


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## bgriggs (Nov 26, 2008)

My personal opinion is that if you can afford the 4'x8' table now, then build it now. 4'x8' retains more value than smaller tables. It takes up a lot of space but you can use the bed as an assembly table or as an off cut table for your saw if the height is right.

Bill


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

+1

hj


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

bgriggs said:


> My personal opinion is that if you can afford the 4'x8' table now, then build it now. 4'x8' retains more value than smaller tables. It takes up a lot of space but you can use the bed as an assembly table or as an off cut table for your saw if the height is right.
> 
> Bill


Good call Bill because if I kept the router table the same height as my out feed table I could install a 4' by 8' router table behind my table saw and not even loose a thing real estate wise . I never even considered that really , interesting . I can't remember but I think my table saw is 32"s high , but I see no reason why the whole TS couldn't be raised if heights an issue 

I may not take this route but it's something to consider anyways . I know a 4/4 would be easy peasy, and as I mentioned I may able to add parts to it at a later date making it 4/8 . 
I sure like the idea of being able to throw a full sheet of material on it though


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## Fasteddie58 (May 18, 2014)

Nice looking Machine and did you make the Table boards?


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## 4DThinker (Feb 16, 2014)

Fasteddie58 said:


> Nice looking Machine and did you make the Table boards?


If you are talking about the photos I posted, then yes. T-Track from Leevalley.com. I cut the top that came with the Meteor so it would fit flush in the frame, then had the CNC cut holes for brass 1/4-20 insert nuts to hold down the MDF strips using nylon flat head bolts from McMaster-Carr. The MDF strips are notched to hold down the t-track, and a single screw in the center keeps the MDF from sliding. 

4D


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

4DThinker said:


> If you are talking about the photos I posted, then yes. T-Track from Leevalley.com. I cut the top that came with the Meteor so it would fit flush in the frame, then had the CNC cut holes for brass 1/4-20 insert nuts to hold down the MDF strips using nylon flat head bolts from McMaster-Carr. The MDF strips are notched to hold down the t-track, and a single screw in the center keeps the MDF from sliding.
> 
> 4D


Yes that's very impressive . Looks like a great idea for securing material .
I'm assuming this is something that can implemented into other manufactures router tables ?


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## 4DThinker (Feb 16, 2014)

RainMan1 said:


> I'm assuming this is something that can implemented into other manufactures router tables ?


It would depend on how the machines are made. Probotix' line are made from a standard t-slotted aluminum extrusion, and so using the slots on the inside of the extrusion I bolted plywood strips to support the drop-in MDF sections. Some machines might rely on their tops to keep the frame square, but Probotix uses a beefy corner bracket in all corners that forces the frame square. My drop-in sections are notched to fit around those brackets. Each machine that doesn't come with t-track but rather a raw MDF bed could have t-track/MDF like mine added on top at the expense of some Z clearance. Machines that have center drive and beam running under the bed to push/pull the gantry are not ideal for opening up the frame for vertical/angled cuts. I opted for Probotix models because of the dual Y motors that put the drive screws outside the frame. 

The Shapeoko 2 and 3, and X-Carve CNCs use two Y motors as well, and would be an inexpensive entry point ripe for configuring like I've done with my Meteor. Add t-track and an internal beam, mount the frame/bed over an open base so part of the cutting area could be removed for vertical/angled cuts.

4D


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## 4DThinker (Feb 16, 2014)

If anyone is doing what I did and using an extra rail to divide up the bed for clamping boards vertically/at an angle, take extra care to make sure that rail is square to the frame and square to the bed as well. 

I was getting slight alignment errors in some sample joint cuts and traced it to my center rail having rotated out of square with the bed top. It was only 2 degrees or so, but that doubled and was clearly noticeable when two halves were brought together. The corner brackets Probotix uses to mount the rails don't have any self-check for being aligned/parallel/square with the rails. Use a tri-square or speed square when tightening them, and tighten the hell out of the screws used. I may eventually make some top/bottom plates to keep the extra rail true/square to the frame. 

4D


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

My first "job" to be hung in a public place, my friend's truck parts store. Painting got a little sloppy, but was in a hurry to take it in today.

Scottart - -- I need some tips on painting, especially those grooves

HJ

RainMan - - - waiting for you to join in on the circus


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## cjskelton (Feb 27, 2015)

Very nice. Did you sign your work?


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

HJ - on the back

HJ

Gonna need one of them there branding irons


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## 4DThinker (Feb 16, 2014)

For anyone considering the 4th Axis available from Probotix, I finally got ours running today and thought I'd share.

I emailed [email protected] about getting a post processor for Aspire/Vcarve to use with the Rotary. Within a day I got this response:



> Aspire and V-Carve PRO both support 4th axis milling so if you open the post processor you should be able to edit it directly and use it for your rotary toolpaths.
> 
> Go to the Postp directory on the computer with Vectric, when you are in the software go to File_>Open Application Data Folder that will take you to the postp directory. Find the post processor you are using and open in notepad to edit. You will see something like the below. You are looking for the ROTARY_WRAP line. You can see an example below, this one is for Y=A which is if you had the rotary mounted parallel to the X axis. If you have mounted the rotary parallel to the Y, that just needs to change to X=A ( ROTARY_WRAP_X = "-A")
> 
> ...


The following text I simply cut and pasted over the same area in the EMC2 G64 post processor I had copied. Saved it, used it to make toolpaths for a wrapped rotary job, then tested (air cut) that job on our Nebula. Seemed to work fine:

+================================================
+ 
+ Emc2 - Vectric machine output configuration file 
+ 
+================================================

POST_NAME = "EMC2 Wrap XtoA(inch)(*.ngc)"

FILE_EXTENSION = "ngc"

UNITS = "INCHES"

ROTARY_WRAP_X = "-A"

+------------------------------------------------
+ Line terminating characters 
+------------------------------------------------

LINE_ENDING = "[13][10]"

+================================================
+ 
+ Formating for variables 
+ 
+====================

4D


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

Cool. I got the rotary just in case I ever "graduated" that high up the food chain.

Now, after you get yours working you can explain step by step in layman's terms what you just posted.

HJ

Aspire coming next week


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## 4DThinker (Feb 16, 2014)

Hi John. If this site allows, I'll post the post processor I made for Aspire and the rotary axis and our Nebula. When you get Aspire Unzip my file and copy it to the PostP folder you will see by clicking on File/Open Application Data Folder in Aspire. 

We have our rotary axis mounted left side of frame, front to back, with the motor on the back edge of the frame. 

4D


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

As I understand it to put the rotary on a Nebula you have to cut the table down to the Meteor width and then mount the rotary piece(s). I was wondering if it mattered which side or front to back direction affected it.

I don't want to reduce my bed size yet, but I will have to take into consideration where I put the T-tracks and maybe rig something up where I can (in the future) put that piece back on the bed if I need the xtra width.

What I think I'm going to do to start is get some T-track and accessories and start on one side just to see how it goes. Is 4 inches wide between the lengthwise channels about right? I figure maybe 3 or 4 sections of T-tract to start and then work my way over if it comes out ok. Rockler (not cheap) has a whole bunch of stuff that fits in their track.

HJ

Engineer in training (I think)


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## 4DThinker (Feb 16, 2014)

John,

On our Nebula I've cut and screwed strips to the side t-slots that lets the MDF drop flush to the frame. When not using the rotary axis I have a panel with t-track that I simply drop in after sliding the tailstock up to the motor/chuck end. I have the motor end on the opposite end from the Y motors, although in facebook probotix posted a photo showing the chuck on the bottom right corner right nest to the right Y motor. Simple to either use the whole range of the bed, or the 4th axis when needed.


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## 4DThinker (Feb 16, 2014)

Some info I've found about setting feed rates for the rotary axis (A): Simple rotation of A with no X/Y/Z motion considers the feed rate as degrees/minute. So if you've set X to be converted to A for rotary movement, then you'll want to give it a very high feed speed or any spin will slow to a crawl. 200 inches per minute is the hardware limit for X and Y on the Comet/Asteroid/Meteor/Nebula, and those won't run any faster given values higher than 200. Set 200 for X, then use it as your A value and suddenly it spins 200 degrees per minute, or only 3.3 degrees per second. One complete rotation will take 1.8 minutes. 

So when doing 3D cuts you don't want to raster in the X direction as that creates moves that are just rotation. 
If you are making only rotation cuts, then assign X a large (like 2700) feed rate. 2700 degrees per minute will make one rotation in 8 seconds. 

3D moves that mix Z, Y, and A movements will default to the slowest set value which is typically your plunge value for Z. 2700 ipm will never be reached as distance moves are capped at 200ip. 

4D


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## Shadowrider (Apr 1, 2015)

4DThinker said:


> Some info I've found about setting feed rates for the rotary axis (A): Simple rotation of A with no X/Y/Z motion considers the feed rate as degrees/minute. So if you've set X to be converted to A for rotary movement, then you'll want to give it a very high feed speed or any spin will slow to a crawl. 200 inches per minute is the hardware limit for X and Y on the Comet/Asteroid/Meteor/Nebula, and those won't run any faster given values higher than 200. Set 200 for X, then use it as your A value and suddenly it spins 200 degrees per minute, or only 3.3 degrees per second. One complete rotation will take 1.8 minutes.
> 
> So when doing 3D cuts you don't want to raster in the X direction as that creates moves that are just rotation.
> If you are making only rotation cuts, then assign X a large (like 2700) feed rate. 2700 degrees per minute will make one rotation in 8 seconds.
> ...


What controller software are you using? Can you use inverse time feed rate? With inverse time you are specifying the time to make the move and not the velocity. IIRC, it's kinda tricky in that it's not a modal command and that you will have to specify a feedrate for each block. That was what we used to use for full blown multi-axis profiling back in the day.


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## 4DThinker (Feb 16, 2014)

I believe all the CNCs that probotix sells run using LinuxCNC. They preconfigure it and include the linux PC with the CNC, so I've had no reason to dig deep into any choices there may be for how it uses data for the assorted axes. Ultimately there should be a simple way to mix diameter info with desired feed rate to get a rotation speed, but neither Aspire/VCarve Pro or LinuxCNC seems to know how to do that. 

4D


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## Shadowrider (Apr 1, 2015)

I'm rapidly getting over my head here, but I think it's up to the post processor and the control software configuration to set the feedrate maxes and how they are interpreted from the CAM output. It does _APPEAR_ that LinuxCNC supports it, so it may just be a post issue. 20 years ago I could have believed that LinuxCNC wouldn't support this had it existed, our first 5 axis profiler required a unix based engineering workstation (Silicon Graphics) to run the CAM software and generate the tool path. Today PCs don't even break a sweat doing it.

G Codes


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

Call Len at Probotix. He designed them and set it all up. He should be able to give you an answer pretty quick.

HJ

You guys are over my head right now


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## 4DThinker (Feb 16, 2014)

I now have the School's second rotary axis temporarily installed on my home Meteor. My controller didn't have a plug for it so I bought their stand-alone controller for the rotary axis. This plugs into the second parallel port on my linux PC, and "should" then permit me to control the rotary axis. Unfortunately the Meteor 4th Axis configuration that came with my system isn't set up to look at the 2nd parallel port. I sent an email to Probotix (Thursday) for help on this issue but haven't heard back from them yet. 

So not everything they sell is "plug and play". This is going to take a few days (at least) to get working. Len knew exactly what I was doing, connecting a 2 year old meteor to a rotary axis using my second parallel port, and had to know this would take re-configuring of my LinuxCNC for Rotary Axis install. No info or download links came with this package. I can find LinuxCNC links on their support page, but no specific instructions on getting my particular configuration to work. 

So I'm all set up, with no way to play. :frown:

4D


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## 4DThinker (Feb 16, 2014)

I got an email from Josh at Probotix back today with a new configuration file and after some fiddling (parallel cable not all the way in the port) I've got the rotary axis working using the stand alone controller on my home Meteor. 

Just glued up some redwood (salvaged from my old deck) squares for a test project. When the glue is dry I'll rough bandsaw cut the stack into a cylinder, chuck it up, and see how it works.

4D


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## cjskelton (Feb 27, 2015)

Be sure to post pictures! I'd like to see how it looks installed on your Meteor.


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

He better show us something. Gotta see what this thing can do. I got the rotary, but don't have a clue what to do with it.

HJ


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## 4DThinker (Feb 16, 2014)

Got the wood all glued up, but then realized where I have the rotary mounted there is about 1.375" from the chuck jaws where the router can't reach. I wanted to mount it on the back rail rather than the front just to eliminate the possibility (likely) that a student would run a spinning bit into it. Now I'm think about moving that back rail 1.375" forward, and cutting the tailstock rail the same amount shorter. I can squeeze another `1/4" inch or so of Y travel by moving the limit stops, but that won't be enough. 

I backed up the origin point and let the project run. It air cut the front half but did a nice job on the part closest to the chuck. Old redwood threw up a little fuzz on the side grain when doing the finish pass. Old and likely dull single flute 3/16" ball nose used, but easy to sand. Not worth showing today. I'll try a little hardwood tomorrow. 

4D


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## 4DThinker (Feb 16, 2014)

honesttjohn said:


> I got the rotary, but don't have a clue what to do with it.
> 
> HJ


The chicken and egg dilemma. Even with simple CNC capability my students had no clue what to do with them or how creative the possibilities were until I made (many!) samples to show them. We've had a rotary axis running for a semester now, but only one student used it and even he didn't realize it would be the best way to get the work done he needed. I've got the school's new rotary add-on installed at home just to make a variety of samples to show the students in the Fall. I'll use up some scrap wood I have laying around, and at the same time become more familiar with how to toolpath for it. I can tell you right now that the rotary toolpath options in Aspire are limiting. No easy mixing of XYZ and AYZ tool paths. 

4D


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

Does that mean another software program to try and learn????

HJ

For Sale Cheap - - Rotary for Probotix Nebula .... never used !!!


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## 4DThinker (Feb 16, 2014)

Naw, you can do a variety of thing by separating the rotary toolpaths from normal XYZ toolpaths, and issuing G-Code A commands manually to rotate the rotary spindle where you want the normal XYZ cut to happen. G0A### where ### is the angle 0-360 where you want it. It would just be nicer if Aspire had a way to mix A moves with XY and Z moves if they used the same router bit. 

4D


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