# Having some kickbacks with my miter saw stop block.



## Artemix (Aug 10, 2014)

Hi, I need to cut several 1 1/4 x 1 1/4" 2" inches long strips of pine.

I cutting them using my miter saw with an improvised stop block that looks something like this:






The problem is, if after I make the cut, I raise the saw I get a sort of kickback. The cut strip gets "sucked in" and it flies away, sometimes it gets demolished somehow, it seems to explode or something. :surprise:

I understand this happen because of how the blade works, but what I want to avoid is to having to turn off the saw every time I make a cut, to then turn it on again. It seems like a waste, it is slow and I'd prefer to avoid it.

Is there any way that you think of?.

Thanks!


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## DonkeyHody (Jan 22, 2015)

Artemix said:


> Hi, I need to cut several 1 1/4 x 1 1/4" 2" inches long strips of pine.
> 
> I cutting them using my miter saw with an improvised stop block that looks something like this:
> 
> ...



Been there, Done that. Ordinarily, I make it a practice to hold onto any piece that's trapped against the blade and operate the saw with my other hand. However, with a piece as short as 2", that puts the hands too close to the blade. So, I just make the cut, keep the blade down until it stops spinning, raise it up, etc. I know that's not the answer you wanted, but I haven't come up with a better one. I suppose you could hold the trapped piece in place with a push stick, but it seems clumsy to me.


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## Artemix (Aug 10, 2014)

Donkey, thanks for sharing my frustration 

I was thinking.. how about a stop block that has some sort of "cubicle" to fit the piece? not sure if the kickback would happen anyway, but, maybe it deserves a try.


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## tomp913 (Mar 7, 2014)

DonkeyHody said:


> Been there, Done that. Ordinarily, I make it a practice to hold onto any piece that's trapped against the blade and operate the saw with my other hand. However, with a piece as short as 2", that puts the hands too close to the blade. So, I just make the cut, keep the blade down until it stops spinning, raise it up, etc. I know that's not the answer you wanted, but I haven't come up with a better one. I suppose you could hold the trapped piece in place with a push stick, but it seems clumsy to me.


Putting an auxiliary fence in place with zero clearance, put the stop to the left of the blade and let the offcut "fall free" to the right should help. For short pieces, improvise a clamping method that keeps your fingers away from the blade.


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## Semipro (Mar 22, 2013)

Watch Ted Ballwin video for cutting small pieces safely
www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmGiO5lPS1I
This guy has got it together


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## Shop guy (Nov 22, 2012)

You can also put a piece of tape on the saw where you ant to stop. The best way imho would be to use the table saw with a starter block to stop your material posistioned in front of the blade the as you pushed forward it will clear the stop block and cut off clear.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

To me the stop being on the right side would pose a problem as I'm right handed and would prefer to have the piece held down with my left hand as I'm cutting . I can't see how I could do it on the right . Of course if the pieces are small my hand ain't getting in there . 
To me in this case you need a way to clamp the material down so it doesn't move once you lift the saw blade


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## tomp913 (Mar 7, 2014)

Artemix said:


> Donkey, thanks for sharing my frustration
> 
> I was thinking.. how about a stop block that has some sort of "cubicle" to fit the piece? not sure if the kickback would happen anyway, but, maybe it deserves a try.


I frequently cut small pieces of aluminum extrusion to make fixturing for my track saw and made an auxiliary table for my little miter saw so that I could do this safely. It has grooved tracks to contain the extrusion and a toggle clamp to hold it while cutting. The piece needed is to the right, trapped by the two rails and stays in place after cutting - I just line up the layout line with the edge of the saw kerf. It was worth the time needed to make the fixture because of how often I used it, I've cut pieces as small as 1-1/2" long with no problem. It worked so well that I added a second set of rails for cutting t-track.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

tomp913 said:


> I frequently cut small pieces of aluminum extrusion to make fixturing for my track saw and made an auxiliary table for my little miter saw so that I could do this safely. It has grooved tracks to contain the extrusion and a toggle clamp to hold it while cutting. The piece needed is to the right, trapped by the two rails and stays in place after cutting - I just line up the layout line with the edge of the saw kerf. It was worth the time needed to make the fixture because of how often I used it, I've cut pieces as small as 1-1/2" long with no problem. It worked so well that I added a second set of rails for cutting t-track.


Nice setup Tom !


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## Knothead47 (Feb 10, 2010)

My saw has two holes in the little backup fence. I run two drywall screws into a 1x2 and have saddle made from scrap that I use for a stop. I tighten it with two 1/420 cap screws and wing nuts to set the distance from the blade.


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## lowracer (May 22, 2015)

Leave the blade down after the cut. don't lift the blade, until it stopped turning


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## waynecochran (Aug 2, 2011)

Sounds like a job for a tablesaw sled. A lot safer IMHO.


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## BIGROMO (Mar 16, 2015)

*What is the purpose of the outside clamp area in tomp913's jig*



tomp913 said:


> I've cut pieces as small as 1-1/2" long with no problem. It worked so well that I added a second set of rails for cutting t-track.


In the last picture there is a piece of t track clamped away from the cutting area. Is this just a holder for pieces you have or will cut? What is the purpose of the clamped area opposite of the cutting area?

Nice jig-thanks.


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## tomp913 (Mar 7, 2014)

BIGROMO said:


> In the last picture there is a piece of t track clamped away from the cutting area. Is this just a holder for pieces you have or will cut? What is the purpose of the clamped area opposite of the cutting area?
> 
> Nice jig-thanks.


This is a photo that I took while I was working out the set-up. The table attaches to the saw with (2) 1/4" fl hd screws and is symmetrical so I can rotate it so that the other edge is against the fence for cutting the t-track. I didn't take any photos after I put the second set of guides in and showing cutting the t-track. Sorry that it wasn't clear.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Sacrificial fence. Or at least slide the two half fences inward for the tightest fit that clears the blade. I think most miter saws let you adjust the sides of the blade track for a zero clearance. A notched push stick (something like half of a lap joint) to hold the piece in place. All the small parts that jump in my shop stopped flipping as you described when I made these changes. But don't forget to reset the fence if you want to cut on an angle or you'll cut into the fence and ruin a blade. Now, how do you suppose I learned that?


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## JFPNCM (Dec 13, 2009)

Watch Ballwin's videos and learn and NEVER lift that blade while it's running. Those brakes are built into the saws for a reason. You may think you're saving time but performing a series of rapid cuts like that and the next item under that blade will be your fingers at best and a hand at worst. 

A bit of over the top preaching but safety is the key!


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## stanzee (Dec 9, 2010)

Quite a few suggestions to get around the problem.
The most prevalent safety suggestion is to always leave the blade in the down position until it stops spinning. I know you don't want to always stop the blade but I believe in the safety rule.
Just my humble opinion.


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## Bushwhacker (Jun 16, 2009)

I fully agree, sounds like a very good way to loose a finger or two. I too make my cut and keep the blade down until it stops spinning then remove the piece and advance the next cut. It might be slow but, in the case of such small pieces, the spinning blade when raised will suck the cut off piece into its self. A possible way is to make a mark where the stop block sits and advance the piece to the mark with out the stop block. This would allow the cut piece to be blown a bit forward by the spinning blade and you could advance your stock to the now exposed stop mark. Still might kick if too many pieces are stacked up end to end. Think safety first over speed of cuts.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

learn patience Pablo...
or go w/ different tooling...
use your table saw...


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## BOjr (Dec 1, 2012)

I would definitely use my table saw with a cross cut sled and a stop block. Much safer.

Buck


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## Artemix (Aug 10, 2014)

But in theory wouldn't the table saw pose the same problem?. 

AFAIK, the issue happens when your stop block presses the cut piece against the blade when it's raising/going backwards.


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

As a finish carpenter, we used stop blocks on miter saws... but not on very short pieces. Rule of thumb- I don't use a stop block on anything shorter than the left or right edge of a miter saw.

For example, the first (apprentice styled) miter saw stand I had to make as an apprentice was on an 8' long 2x12. 
- Drill holes for the base of your saw. Carriage bolts go up through these, your saw base. Secure with wing nuts.
- Cut blocks 8 blocks, 8" long and as high as your saw deck, minus 1/4".
- Mount 2 of the blocks at each side of the saw. Mount 2 of the blocks next to the saw, each side. Add 2 blocks each side between those blocks.
- Measure from the outside edge of each side of the saw, to cut 1/4 thick x 8" wide mdf for each side support. Screw these onto the blocks for side supports.
- Cut a side rail for each side, those same measurements. Put a straight edge on the back support of the saw, to line up those side rails. Screw on.
- Cut a block of 3/4 mdf for a stop block. Just screws down into a side support to use as a stop block.

But we never used a stop block for something short... (see my rule of thumb above.) If you need something short and need a reference, a pencil mark on the saw deck is good, but wipes off easily. If needed for more than a few cuts, we used blue tape as a reference.

BUT-- Here is where your problem is occurring:
- The physical characteristics of a blade, is that the teeth of a blade, which creates the kerf, is wider than the plate of a blade.
- When you have something short and use a stop block... and cut through a work piece, you create the kerf. The teeth pass through the work. 
- As the cut goes through the material when using a stop block, since the plate is thinner than the teeth, the material drifts towards the plate... (it releases some tension)
- If you lift the blade and the work cannot move away from the blade (as with using a stop block), then the teeth raising up tends to lift the work piece on the blade side, causing your kickback. The work piece, lifting on one end causes a diagonal increase of length and pushes against the blade.

*** Not saying it is a suggested, preferred technique, but if you turn off your saw before lifting the blade, and let the blade spin down to a stop before lifting, then it would not tend to raise that short work piece. Note that even though safer, there are still risks.

It would be safer *NOT* to use a stop block on very short pieces, but if you do, please understand the laws of physics.

Note- I make and use zero clearance inserts... Not just for the quality of cut, but so that small pieces do not fall into the space below a miter blade.


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## Artemix (Aug 10, 2014)

Mike, yeah, that is exactly what happens, thanks for the detailed physical explanation.

The only way I can think of to avoid a kickback and also to avoid needing to turn off the saw and waiting for it to slow down, would be to have some kind of complex mechanism that holds the piece in place, but I can't think of anything automatic and doable.


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## papasombre (Sep 22, 2011)

Hi, Semipro.
Very informative video of Mr. Ted. It came timely for the project I am working on. I am making several wall kitchen cabinets out of recycled chipboard. The edges will be covered with solid wood 10mm thick, at least. Several advices from this video will be used to get the edge banding.
Mr. Ted explanations are clear. I am curious about his use of two pair of spectacles.

Thank for posting.


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## Dejure (Jul 27, 2009)

Got to agree with lowracer. A LOT of the pieces I cut were small, or the piece cut off is, generally, small. As you lift the blade, it kisses the cutoff and kicks it. Since I quit lifting the blade until the brake could kick in, kick backs have all but gone the way of the dinosaur. 

I have thought of picking up a used miter just for production cuts of short pieces. The bed on the right side, since I'm right handed, would be modified so pieces would just fall off or down, after each cut. That would allow me to just run the wood against a fence mounted stop, whack off the piece, slide the board ahead and continue until all the cuts are made,


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Here's a thought; raise the infeed side up on a 1"-1 1/2" slab and let the off-cuts fall away to the right as they're cut off. 
The stop block is what's causing the problem...nowhere for the off-cut to go allowing the blade to grab it on the way back up. It needs to swing out of the way once you've established the cut position.


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## Dejure (Jul 27, 2009)

Excellent simple modification and well worth a try. The slicker the surface, the more easy it could slide out of the way, before the saw is lifted again.



DaninVan said:


> Here's a thought; raise the infeed side up on a 1"-1 1/2" slab and let the off-cuts fall away to the right as they're cut off.
> The stop block is what's causing the problem...nowhere for the off-cut to go allowing the blade to grab it on the way back up. It needs to swing out of the way once you've established the cut position.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

I make cuts like that on a table saw sled. Stop block is clamped to the fence, before the blade. Push the piece to the block for length, then slide the sled forward so the short piece is hanging free, not in contact with the stop block. Then push again and the piece goes into the blade. If you have a sacrificial backer in place, you have a zero clearance fence so there's no tear out either. I love my Rockler TS sled because I can make cuts like this any size and any angle up to about 55 degrees.


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## Ratbob (Apr 6, 2015)

It's way too dangerous using a chop saw on such small parts.  I build this sled for cutting small tapers on the table saw.


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## Bodger96 (Mar 18, 2014)

You should check out the 10 million dollar stick from Fastcap Tools with Izzy Swan On youtube.

Regards Bob


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## Dejure (Jul 27, 2009)

One more possible solution:

If the cut-offs are small, you could screen a dust collector with a wedge in front of the pickup so it pulled pieces (for right hand workers, the opposite for lefties) to the right and away. 

You might have to mount the hose on a tripod and experiment with screens and things, but the suction should pull fair sized pieces enough to allow you to push the next piece to the stop and just keep going.


Meanwhile, I have to remind myself one of the hardest lessons in woodworking is - patience.


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## JFPNCM (Dec 13, 2009)

Dejure said:


> One more possible solution:
> 
> If the cut-offs are small, you could screen a dust collector with a wedge in front of the pickup so it pulled pieces (for right hand workers, the opposite for lefties) to the right and away.
> 
> ...


I use this technique on my table saw when I need to rip thin strips for inlays etc. Works very well with a bit of positioning

A hardy second on that learning patience!!


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