# Beading on an outside radius (face)



## lay3r3 (Jan 14, 2010)

Hi, I'm David, and I'm learning to route  This is my first post after reading many tips and tricks on the forum. I'm at a point in the design of a project that I need some professional guidance. I've been searching high and low and haven't found quite the solution so I apologize if I've missed the answer in a previous post.

I'd like to replace our front screen door of the house. It's rotted out in a bad way so I'm thinking rebuild the wood, have the iron pieces sandblasted and recoated, and clean up the hardware a bit. I've picked up some cypress based on what I think my cuts will need to be and I'm doing the layout on paper to make sure I don't jack this thing up. Seemed simple enough but the routing of a bead detail has me concerned. Currently it's got a cheap piece of half round trim nailed to the face along the inside edge. I am thinking instead I'd like to route a bead along the outside edge. Perhaps do the same inside treatment but instead of nailing to the face do it with thicker stock and attach to the inside edge. I'm not sure on that one yet. So, two questions really:

1) Using my table will be simple enough to handle the straight edges... but how does a guy go about handling the radius? It's not the outside edge, but the face that I'm trying to do. I have an edge beading bit (whiteside 3258) but can't quite picture me running the radius pieces along the fence without something going horribly arry. 

2) If a guy did want to add that added bump to the inside edge, would he bead straight stock and rip off the bid using a table saw and steam it to get the radius? If so, will a 1/2" bead really bend to fit that shape? I haven't used this bit so I can go to a smaller bead if necessary but would like to keep the two details the same size as I only had wanted to purchase one bead bit 

I'm trying to attach a couple of photos to help create a visual. Thanks in advance for the advice! I love the solutions you guys whip up!

david


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

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## lay3r3 (Jan 14, 2010)

Thanks for the quick message, Bob. I think I may have access to a trim router so great suggestion! I also have a smaller multi-base Dewalt that has really collected dust after setting up my cabinet and Portar Cable. I'll check to see if it has a guide. I'm guessing I could cut some scrap to clamp all together to give a larger surface to ride against. If I'm picturing this correctly I'll have to ride the outside edge as I bead the face. Do you anticipate any challenges with a 1/2" bead? Wondering if I need to be on a smaller bead to successfully hit that radius... although, it's a large radius and not a small circle.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

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## Tom76 (Aug 28, 2009)

lay3r3 said:


> Hi, I'm David, and I'm learning to route  This is my first post after reading many tips and tricks on the forum. I'm at a point in the design of a project that I need some professional guidance. I've been searching high and low and haven't found quite the solution so I apologize if I've missed the answer in a previous post.
> 
> I'd like to replace our front screen door of the house. It's rotted out in a bad way so I'm thinking rebuild the wood, have the iron pieces sandblasted and recoated, and clean up the hardware a bit. I've picked up some cypress based on what I think my cuts will need to be and I'm doing the layout on paper to make sure I don't jack this thing up. Seemed simple enough but the routing of a bead detail has me concerned. Currently it's got a cheap piece of half round trim nailed to the face along the inside edge. I am thinking instead I'd like to route a bead along the outside edge. Perhaps do the same inside treatment but instead of nailing to the face do it with thicker stock and attach to the inside edge. I'm not sure on that one yet. So, two questions really:
> 
> ...


David
This is a two cutter job if you are to use the trimmer and that is the way I would attempt it.
A none bearing Beading Bit (Fine Point) for the inside shape of the bead and a Rounding over bit with a bearing for the outside curve. IMHO it is not possible to be achieved with a Bull nose Radius Bit.

Care should be take to ensure the router is positioned correctly especially when going round the inside curve to ensure the cut is made the same distance in from the edge.

Pic below is a beading cutter I could not find pic of the fine point. Note; it can also be used for the outside curve when using the trimmer with the roller.
Tom
(Template Tom)


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## gregW (Mar 14, 2007)

Hi David,

MLCS sells a point cutting roundover bit that will give you a little different profile than you wanted but it would work well using the method that Tom described for what you are trying to do.

MLCS groove forming router bits

I used one a while back to do a bunch of stopped flutes in door and window casings and MLCS was the only place I could find that sold the 1/4" radius point cutting roundover with a 1/2" shank ( part #8732 ) and I was able to route several hundred feet of casings with the same bit.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

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## gregW (Mar 14, 2007)

bobj3 said:


> Hi Greg
> 
> That would work well with the new Flute Jig, just for that type of job, no big deal for curves..
> 
> =========


Bob,

That's a Great idea 

but I think he'll need to drop the bearing down with some type of spacer in order to get the bead at the edge of the part.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

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## gregW (Mar 14, 2007)

bobj3 said:


> Hi Greg
> 
> Thanks, right on about the washers or spacer,that's why it's best to use a flat head screw to fit into the bearing, can be used on 3/8" to 1 1/4" thick stock the norm  I will say the washers work the best, quick way to set it up, I used the smaller bearings off some old router bits >> they are 5/16" or 8mm ID the norm..just right for the tee nuts to fit in or washers..
> 
> =========


It looks like eagle also sells a fluting jig that works on curves. 

http://www.routerforums.com/vendor-announcements/18917-new-combination-arched-fluting-jig-edge-guide.html

their version uses 2 bearings on the outside of the arc and one bearing on the inside of the arc.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

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## Tom76 (Aug 28, 2009)

gregW said:


> Hi David,
> 
> MLCS sells a point cutting roundover bit that will give you a little different profile than you wanted but it would work well using the method that Tom described for what you are trying to do.
> 
> ...


Thanks Greg That is exactly the bit I was referring to but I do not have access to the American catalogues to quote numbers.

Tom 
(Template Tom)


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## Tom76 (Aug 28, 2009)

> *Hi, I'm David, and I'm learning to route This is my first post after reading many tips and tricks on the forum.*
> 
> 
> > Bj As David is new to routing I do believe we have to offer him a reasonable method KISS as you would often quote. I doubt if I see him going about setting up a complex Jig when you gave him a simple method using the trimmer even though the cutter you had posted was not suitable.
> ...


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

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## lay3r3 (Jan 14, 2010)

Wow! Thanks everyone for the replies! The bit I've got, albeit an edge bead, works on the face as well (see the original attached diagram). To do this radius with the bit I'd have to ride the edge of the door surfacing the face. It looks like other bit recomendations would be made by running the router across the surface of the door since they cut on their face rather than their edge. I'm not opposed to getting a new bit but was trying to stay with the bead design. I know I can put that bead bit in my handheld router and try my best to follow the radius around but was nervous too about the 1/2" bead making a smooth curve along that radius. I need to test with some scrap I suppose.


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## Tom76 (Aug 28, 2009)

http://www.routerforums.com/attachm...eading-outside-radius-face-profile-detail.pdf

[Quote.I think he said he wanted the bead on the outside edge of the board,
using the bit below....that he had in his possession and paid for, ( Trim Router) I have use that bit b/4 and it's a great bit for beads..but it will work both ways on the side or on the top of the board..with one pass the norm Quote]

Bj Your answer IMHO really should have been it was not a good idea to use such a Bit and also not recommend a smaller bit using the trimmer with the roller attachment. He made it quite clear with the drawing he submitted that he wanted the beading on the face of the door not the edge as you wrongly suggested. You may think you can produce the required beading with what you had suggested and I suppose it would have been a good idea if you had presented a photo shoot of your presentation to convince him, and also convince me as well.

Sorry Bj But I strongly disagree with your solution you had submitted to the problem But I would love to be proved wrong. I am always open to learning new routing techniques.

Tom
(Template Tom)


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## Tom76 (Aug 28, 2009)

lay3r3 said:


> Wow! Thanks everyone for the replies! The bit I've got, albeit an edge bead, works on the face as well (see the original attached diagram). To do this radius with the bit I'd have to ride the edge of the door surfacing the face. It looks like other bit recomendations would be made by running the router across the surface of the door since they cut on their face rather than their edge. I'm not opposed to getting a new bit but was trying to stay with the bead design. I know I can put that bead bit in my handheld router and try my best to follow the radius around but was nervous too about the 1/2" bead making a smooth curve along that radius. I need to test with some scrap I suppose.


You have every right to be nervous about using the cutter on the face of the door it was never designed for that purpose and maybe it could be achieved when the router is placed in the router table and working with a bearing or maybe two bearings in place of the straight fences. personally I would not even consider that method 
Tom
(Template Tom)


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## jschaben (Jun 21, 2009)

I dunno guys, I wouldn't be at all comfortable trying a hand held router on that job at all. 
I think I would approach the arch as a multi-sided object. 
Rip the required length of lumber into a stack of 1-1/4 x 1/2" and another stack of 2-3/16 x 3/4. Use a 1/4" R bullnose in the table to put the bead on the edge of the 1-1/4" stock and the face of the 2-13/16" stock and Glue them up. To make the arch you would need to cut 18 pieces with 4* angles and 1 with 9* angles. Didn't work out the length but they would be short. 
Lots of end grain joints but it is trim, not structural. 
Just my opinion.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

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## Tom76 (Aug 28, 2009)

*"Photo Shoot"*

That is the request that I get when I come up with a solution to a problem. Why not you?????
Your initial reply to the request was entirely incorrect with what you had suggested or maybe I am wrong, and if we are wrong we have to admit it and simply say sorry that will not work, and then come up with alternative suggestions. But keeping in mind he is new to routing and should not be bombarded with alternative methods without some photos. 
Yes Bj it is hard to play nice with me as can be seen by your other postings as well. I was only pointing out that what you had suggested was entirely wrong in my opinion. I will not submit a solution without trying it out first and this was the method I used on the edge of a large dining room table some time ago. 

It was my intention not to reply to any of your postings but when I saw what you had suggested I had no alternative to point out the possibility of him running into some sort of trouble with what you first posted, and may have remained as the wrong solution if no one else had taken the time to submit alternative suggestions. So Really I had to submit my opinion.
Tom
(Template Tom)


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

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## Tom76 (Aug 28, 2009)

bobj3 said:


> Tom
> 
> Maybe Once you also get 13,887 posted items you will see what I mean..
> 
> ===


Bj The number of postings is not what is counts, it is the contents presented that really matter. I have no intention of wasting my time with some of the posting you have submitted over the years I was going to go through them and select some of the contents but why waste my time. All I have to say is; *Just make sure in future that you have posted the correct answer before moving on* 

Tom
(Template Tom)


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

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## Tom76 (Aug 28, 2009)

lay3r3 said:


> Hi, I'm David, and I'm learning to route  This is my first post after reading many tips and tricks on the forum. I'm at a point in the design of a project that I need some professional guidance. I've been searching high and low and haven't found quite the solution so I apologize if I've missed the answer in a previous post.
> 
> I'd like to replace our front screen door of the house. It's rotted out in a bad way so I'm thinking rebuild the wood, have the iron pieces sandblasted and recoated, and clean up the hardware a bit. I've picked up some cypress based on what I think my cuts will need to be and I'm doing the layout on paper to make sure I don't jack this thing up. Seemed simple enough but the routing of a bead detail has me concerned. Currently it's got a cheap piece of half round trim nailed to the face along the inside edge. I am thinking instead I'd like to route a bead along the outside edge. Perhaps do the same inside treatment but instead of nailing to the face do it with thicker stock and attach to the inside edge. I'm not sure on that one yet. So, two questions really:
> 
> ...


David
If you do want some assistance email Me tomodonnell75(at)live(dot)com(dot)au

Tom 
Template Tom


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## Tom76 (Aug 28, 2009)

bobj3 said:


> YES Sir ,well do.I I, will that be all Sir.
> 
> 
> 
> =====


Yes that will be all continue to give the wrong advice and just wait for an accident to happen.
Tom
(Template Tom)


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

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## lay3r3 (Jan 14, 2010)

So I gave the handheld option a go  the 1/2" bead bit really isn't a large bit and handles quite easily in handheld fashion. It's not like you're trying to wield a panel bit or something crazy! I went slow slow slow and it did quite well. I practiced on 4 radius scrap pieces each time seeing what I was missing. Since the intent is to add the cut detail to the FACE the router base has to ride the edge. The key was having additional stock below (of the same radius) to provide a larger surface to ride the base on. Another poster suggested many pieces of the curve pieced together afterward. Since the radius is the same on all the pieces, doing 2 vs. 4, 6, or even 8 isn't any different. If anything I think having fewer pieces will be easier b/c you get in position and you kind of have a groove (no pun intended) going. It seems the solution is to cut 2, 3, maybe 4 pieces and and clamping them together for a larger base to ensure you're square to the edge. Going slow with a very rigid stance (body language basically) helped me keep the base of the router on tangent to the curve. on the 3rd one it was nearly a smooth bead. Now, I would NOT be able to do this on a tighter curve... just as an FYI for future use. The 1/2" bead seemed to handle this degree of radius pretty well... not perfectly, but good enough for this purpose and with a teeny bit of paper sanding it'll be good. If the curve were tighter I think the bead would be jerky. 

I think the key would be a double bearing type setup so that you could have the curve ride the bearings as though they were a fence. They'd have to be wide rubber wheels maybe. Tom, you could probably whip this up pretty simply with your jig experience. Here's a rough diagram of what I'm visualizing. It's really rough but kind of thinking 'out loud'


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## Tom76 (Aug 28, 2009)

lay3r3 said:


> So I gave the handheld option a go  the 1/2" bead bit really isn't a large bit and handles quite easily in handheld fashion. It's not like you're trying to wield a panel bit or something crazy! I went slow slow slow and it did quite well. I practiced on 4 radius scrap pieces each time seeing what I was missing. Since the intent is to add the cut detail to the FACE the router base has to ride the edge. The key was having additional stock below (of the same radius) to provide a larger surface to ride the base on. Another poster suggested many pieces of the curve pieced together afterward. Since the radius is the same on all the pieces, doing 2 vs. 4, 6, or even 8 isn't any different. If anything I think having fewer pieces will be easier b/c you get in position and you kind of have a groove (no pun intended) going. It seems the solution is to cut 2, 3, maybe 4 pieces and and clamping them together for a larger base to ensure you're square to the edge. Going slow with a very rigid stance (body language basically) helped me keep the base of the router on tangent to the curve. on the 3rd one it was nearly a smooth bead. Now, I would NOT be able to do this on a tighter curve... just as an FYI for future use. The 1/2" bead seemed to handle this degree of radius pretty well... not perfectly, but good enough for this purpose and with a teeny bit of paper sanding it'll be good. If the curve were tighter I think the bead would be jerky.
> 
> I think the key would be a double bearing type setup so that you could have the curve ride the bearings as though they were a fence. They'd have to be wide rubber wheels maybe. Tom, you could probably whip this up pretty simply with your jig experience. Here's a rough diagram of what I'm visualizing. It's really rough but kind of thinking 'out loud'


From one of my Previous postings

"You have every right to be nervous about using the cutter on the face of the door it was never designed for that purpose and maybe it could be achieved when the router is placed in the router table and working with a bearing or maybe two bearings in place of the straight fences. personally I would not even consider that method"

As suggested above, obviously you have gone ahead and produced your beading using the alternative method I had presented. I would still have gone for the alternative cutter and use the trimmer in the conventional position and I am certain I would have achieved a better result not to mention it could have been done in a safer manner.

Tom 
(Template Tom)


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## Tom76 (Aug 28, 2009)

"Tom, you could probably whip this up pretty simply with your jig experience. Here's a rough diagram of what I'm visualizing. It's really rough but kind of thinking 'out loud'"

David 
When I answered your first post I was trying to discourage you on using the cutter you thought was suitable for use in the trimmer. The truth is I would have completed the project with the introduction of a simple arched template and the use of template guides, which would have been safer to produce, but there are not many who understand the true advantages of using the method I have developed. Hopefully you have achieved what you set out to do and the question to ask yourself is ' Would I do it that way again or would I purchase another cutter and produce the shape with greater safety awareness'?
Tom 
(Template Tom )


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Beads

Done with this bit
http://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/smarthtml/pages/bt_bull.html
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