# New noise



## kklowell (Dec 26, 2014)

First, like pretty much always, I'm not entirely sure this is the right forum to post this in, but here goes.
Today while ripping plywood panels into strips my usually quite quiet table saw started making a fairly loud "growling noise." I expect it's a bearing. Especially since when I turn the blade by hand I can feel it "catch" in one spot each revolution. I guess I'll need to find the model number and look for a manual to see if I can fix the thing.


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## Semipro (Mar 22, 2013)

Ken
Sound like you better find the problem.check are reference folder, see if your table saw in there,
Router Reference - Router Forums


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

If you can feel a rough spot and you hear noise then the end is near. Fix it before it fails. Total failure could cause other problems like possibly the blade shifting and hitting part of the frame.


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## kklowell (Dec 26, 2014)

Yeah, I don't intend to use it until I can find/fix the issue. Maybe I'll get lucky and hit the lottery so I can buy a brand new saw. LOL


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## sunnybob (Apr 3, 2015)

Bearings are very cheap. take it apart and replace all the bearings. You dont even have to buy them from the saw makers. Once you have the bearing in hand all you have to do is measure inside and outside diameter and thickness, then buy them from ebay or a local automotive bearing shop.


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## greenacres2 (Dec 23, 2011)

Ken--i'm sure you've done this already...but did you remove the blade and check to see if there is an off-cut or something rubbing? No need to ask how I know...
earl


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## kklowell (Dec 26, 2014)

greenacres2 said:


> Ken--i'm sure you've done this already...but did you remove the blade and check to see if there is an off-cut or something rubbing? No need to ask how I know...
> earl


I did not remove the blade, but I did blow everything out with compressed air, and I did look in there with a flashlight to check for a stuck piece. That was my first thought...and hope. When I didn't find anything is when I turned the blade by hand and found that it turns well except for one part of the full revolution. 
It does have a toothed drive belt so I'm thinking there might be a chip or something in one spot on the belt. Other than that, I suspect it's time for new bearings, which probably isn't a bad idea anyway.


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## Daikusan (Apr 12, 2013)

Since its belt driven - take the belt off and check again. If its smooth without the belt it could be in the motor . . .


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## kklowell (Dec 26, 2014)

Daikusan said:


> Since its belt driven - take the belt off and check again. If its smooth without the belt it could be in the motor . . .


Binding in the motor would mean I'd be looking for a new saw I think...it's old, and not the type of saw that would be worth the cost of a new motor.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

kklowell said:


> I did not remove the blade, but I did blow everything out with compressed air, and I did look in there with a flashlight to check for a stuck piece. That was my first thought...and hope. When I didn't find anything is when I turned the blade by hand and found that it turns well except for one part of the full revolution.
> It does have a toothed drive belt so I'm thinking there might be a chip or something in one spot on the belt. Other than that, I suspect it's time for new bearings, which probably isn't a bad idea anyway.


A missing tooth or two on the belt can do something similar.


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

While we're on the subject -- would a worn belt (old Craftsman 113 series) cause the saw to bog down just doing simple cuts ...... or do I have more serious problems?


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## kklowell (Dec 26, 2014)

honesttjohn said:


> While we're on the subject -- would a worn belt (old Craftsman 113 series) cause the saw to bog down just doing simple cuts ...... or do I have more serious problems?


Is that a v-belt?


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## Daikusan (Apr 12, 2013)

kklowell said:


> Binding in the motor would mean I'd be looking for a new saw I think...it's old, and not the type of saw that would be worth the cost of a new motor.


You can replace the bearings in most motors. SO was it the missing teeth in the belt? The old cast-iron table saws are much better than the new aluminum contractor saws IMHO.


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## Daikusan (Apr 12, 2013)

honesttjohn said:


> While we're on the subject -- would a worn belt (old Craftsman 113 series) cause the saw to bog down just doing simple cuts ...... or do I have more serious problems?


Is belt loose?


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## kklowell (Dec 26, 2014)

Daikusan said:


> You can replace the bearings in most motors. SO was it the missing teeth in the belt? The old cast-iron table saws are much better than the new aluminum contractor saws IMHO.


I have not had a chance to even look at the thing, and likely won't for some time yet. I'm trying to freshen up a bathroom and some other projects for my wife, so that saw will have to wait a bit.
For those who are curious, it is a Delta, and does have a cast iron table. I haven't looked to be sure, but I think it's a 34-670.


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

kklowell said:


> Is that a v-belt?


No. The one on the saw is smooth, and the only replacement in the right size I found has teeth.

Belt is tight. The weight of the motor keeps it tensioned.


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## woodknots (Mar 7, 2012)

You might want to upgrade to a link belt - a bit more expensive but runs a lot smoother. I've had one on my table saw for years.

Here's a link to Harbor Freight just for the picture:

Vibration Free Link Belt


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## kklowell (Dec 26, 2014)

honesttjohn said:


> No. The one on the saw is smooth, and the only replacement in the right size I found has teeth.
> 
> Belt is tight. The weight of the motor keeps it tensioned.


Do you think the belt is slipping? A toothed belt on a smooth pulley is going to have a lot less contact area.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Belt problems won't cause a saw to bog down as in the motor starting to labour. A laboring motor is a symptom of it being under a load and if you aren't sawing anything that usually means a really bad bearing. No matter how good they are they don't last forever.

Ken if the old belt was a vee belt then it won't work with a toothed belt. They will only run on cogged pulleys or flat pulleys. Go to a industrial supply store. They'll be able to get the right one for you.


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## kklowell (Dec 26, 2014)

It's not my machine that had a flat belt that has been replaced with a toothed belt, it's John's.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Sorry Ken. I was thinking about my response more than who it should have been directed to. Toothed vee belts work as well as solid vee belts, maybe better because they are more flexible as they bend around the pulley. I have to admit that I wasn't entirely on the right page mentally earlier as the picture of a cogged belt I had earlier was a cogged flat belt such as ones used to drive the camshaft on an engine.


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## Daikusan (Apr 12, 2013)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> Sorry Ken. I was thinking about my response more than who it should have been directed to. Toothed vee belts work as well as solid vee belts, maybe better because they are more flexible as they bend around the pulley. I have to admit that I wasn't entirely on the right page mentally earlier as the picture of a cogged belt I had earlier was a cogged flat belt such as ones used to drive the camshaft on an engine.


Chuck
You are correct. The V notched belts are more flexible and do not need as much tension. They are more flexible and better designed for the small pulleys on the saw IMHO. I replaced my V belt with a notched V belt it runs much smoother. While they are not as good as the “linked belt” Vince put up a link for; the notched work better than a regular non-notched V belt.

Picture 1 is the flat type used for a cam or a Harley drive belt. The V notched belts are in the 2nd picture.


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## kklowell (Dec 26, 2014)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> Sorry Ken. I was thinking about my response more than who it should have been directed to. Toothed vee belts work as well as solid vee belts, maybe better because they are more flexible as they bend around the pulley. I have to admit that I wasn't entirely on the right page mentally earlier as the picture of a cogged belt I had earlier was a cogged flat belt such as ones used to drive the camshaft on an engine.


I'll admit that I was also thinking about the type of belt is like a camshaft timing belt because that is the type my saw uses. That type running on flat pulleys designed for a flat pulley designed to run a serpentine belt, like an alternator belt used in most cars these days, would have less contact area and could slip more easily I would think.
I had forgotten about the notched V-belt myself.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

A cogged flat belt running on a flat pulley would slip more I think, in fact I think it would slip quite a bit. The seprentine ones are ribbed and the pulleys are ribbed on all the vehicles I can remember working on. The ribbing would increase the surface area in contact from one to the other.

On a Mack truck I drove the sepentine belts were failing prematurely until one day I noticed that one pulley was out of line with the rest. When we got it lined up properly the problem went away so it's important for those pulleys to be coplanar. The serpentine belts being much thinner are more flexible and go around the pulleys easier.

Farm tractors that were made around the time I was born and farther back routinely came with a large pto driven pulley on the side that was used to power implements and they used a flat belt that was around 6 to 8" wide. They would get the tractor in position, throw the belt on, and then move the tractor enough to tighten the belt. If the rotation was wrong they would twist the belt into a figure 8.


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

Sounds like a growling noise coming from the table, and not the motor. I take it there's bearings on the trunyon or arbor that I got to look for?


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Yes John. There should be one on each end of the trunnion shaft. Easy to make sure it's not the motor. Take the drive belts off and it it still makes noise it's the motor. If it quits it's the trunnion bearings.


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## chessnut2 (Sep 15, 2011)

vchiarelli said:


> You might want to upgrade to a link belt - a bit more expensive but runs a lot smoother. I've had one on my table saw for years.
> 
> Here's a link to Harbor Freight just for the picture:
> 
> Vibration Free Link Belt


Expensive, yes. But the long term improvement is worth it.


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## Daikusan (Apr 12, 2013)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> A cogged flat belt running on a flat pulley would slip more I think, in fact I think it would slip quite a bit. The seprentine ones are ribbed and the pulleys are ribbed on all the vehicles I can remember working on. The ribbing would increase the surface area in contact from one to the other.
> 
> Farm tractors that were made around the time I was born and farther back routinely came with a large pto driven pulley on the side that was used to power implements and they used a flat belt that was around 6 to 8" wide. They would get the tractor in position, throw the belt on, and then move the tractor enough to tighten the belt. If the rotation was wrong they would twist the belt into a figure 8.


YES your are right. If you measure the surface of the ribs there is more contact area than that of a standard V belt.

BTW there are not many people around that remember the tractor pulleys, belts, and put-puts.:wink:


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## kklowell (Dec 26, 2014)

I grew up in country, I remember those 2-cylicder John Deere putt-putts and the flat belt... you can still see people using them here on firewood saws.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Daikusan said:


> YES your are right. If you measure the surface of the ribs there is more contact area than that of a standard V belt.
> 
> BTW there are not many people around that remember the tractor pulleys, belts, and put-puts.:wink:


If I remember right Steve you are from Iowa so you should be pretty familiar with them too. I remember them used for running a buzz saw for cutting firewood too. Scary looking operation looking back at that. No blade guards in the old days and pushing the wood through by hand.


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## Daikusan (Apr 12, 2013)

Yes, you are right. From what I remember - no guards on anything for the most part. That was probably why 10-20% of the farmers I knew had body parts missing (unfortunately). Its a wonder we kids ever made it to adult hood.


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## jj777746 (Jan 17, 2015)

Daikusan said:


> Yes, you are right. From what I remember - no guards on anything for the most part. That was probably why 10-20% of the farmers I knew had body parts missing (unfortunately). Its a wonder we kids ever made it to adult hood.


Hi All,when I was a kid my father would hook up the tractor power take off to the saw bench & cut great blocks of firewood that my older brother & I would have to split. The flat belt we used would slip some times & Dad would reverse the Fordson Major a little to take up the slack to tighten this big belt & I'm pretty sure he also would put some molasses on it to stop it slipping.Has anyone ever heard of this trick before? Beg your pardon for this not so quick reply.James


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

James I don't think I've ever heard of molasses but we used to use a belt dressing on vee belts and maybe it got used on the flat belts but can't remember for sure now. One type of belt dressing came in a stick like a large crayon but I think later there may have been some spray on type.


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## Daikusan (Apr 12, 2013)

James and Chuck

I remember a gallon can with black substance, I suppose it could have been molasses based. I have no clue. I do remember using a paint brush to put it on. I remember making dad mad because we were letting the brush get caught in the pulley and watching it get thrown 50 feet or so. Lucky I never got my hand caught up in the thing. :surprise: Like I said its a wonder we made it to adulthood. 

I dont remember the stick but it was probably out there.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Ken and John- if all your questions about bearing noises haven't been answered now is the time to join back in. The rest of us are off on a tangent.


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

My saw definitely has a noise coming from under the table. Since I have an external belt drive, I've eliminated the motor. The blade is tight and doesn't wobble in the slightest. I blew the undercarriage out real good and did a couple cuts. No burn marks and it didn't bog down as bad as it did before. So I'll try it for a little while like this. Still doesn't sound right to me. I ordered a set of arbor bearings off Ebay just in case --- for $10 I'll keep them for spares.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

*Slick*



Cherryville Chuck said:


> James I don't think I've ever heard of molasses but we used to use a belt dressing on vee belts and maybe it got used on the flat belts but can't remember for sure now. One type of belt dressing came in a stick like a large crayon but I think later there may have been some spray on type.


Yup; I still have my crayon type. I think it was made by Chevron(?).


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

honesttjohn said:


> My saw definitely has a noise coming from under the table. Since I have an external belt drive, I've eliminated the motor. The blade is tight and doesn't wobble in the slightest. I blew the undercarriage out real good and did a couple cuts. No burn marks and it didn't bog down as bad as it did before. So I'll try it for a little while like this. Still doesn't sound right to me. I ordered a set of arbor bearings off Ebay just in case --- for $10 I'll keep them for spares.


John if it isn't hard to take the belts off then do so and try rotating the blade slowly by hand and see if you feel any rough spots. That isn't always going to work if it's not making noise when you try it.

Years ago ago when I used to drive school bus once in a while and one bus I was driving would start making a drive train noise and then after a while it would stop for a bit and then start again. They found a ball bearing on the input shaft of the trans that had a chip out of it. When the chip on the ball was in line with the rotation it would make noise and when the chip was on the side of the ball it would quit.


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## kklowell (Dec 26, 2014)

The first real step to answering my noise concern will come when I have time to take the saw off the stand, turn it upside down, take the belt cover off and inspect the belt. I'm thinking that with my wife's desire to get this bathroom done, and cold weather, it might be a while yet. My son returned my old (small, but 10") Craftsman table saw yesterday, so I'm not without the ability to make sawdust at least.


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## kklowell (Dec 26, 2014)

UPDATE: This evening I finally got a chance to look into the problem. I found a load of sawdust in the belt cover slots, and some fine dust loaded up in the sprocket. I also found that the belt is missing several teeth so it's a surprise the blade even turned on this thing. After removing the belt I spun the blade shaft and it sounded like dry bearings, so I took them out and will be looking for replacement bearings.
I'm happy to have found the noise, now I hope I can find the parts.


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

I got a set of brand new bearings on Ebay shipped for $10.


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## Daikusan (Apr 12, 2013)

Onwards and upwards. One step at a time and it will hum like new. Happy for you that you figured out the problems!!


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## kklowell (Dec 26, 2014)

This is going to be cheap! I work part-time as a driver at our local NAPA store and found out this morning that we have those bearings in stock.... my cost was less that $5 for two bearings. Now I'm ordering the belt from Amazon...$6.99 with Prime shipping. I should have my saw up and running by the weekend, and for well less than $20. Can't beat that with a stick!
I'll also take te time to set it all up to the best of my abilities when I put it back together so it should not only run quiet(er) but cut accurately.


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

Let me know how hard it was to change the bearings please.


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## kklowell (Dec 26, 2014)

honesttjohn said:


> Let me know how hard it was to change the bearings please.


Will do. So far it wasn't hard to get the two shaft bearings out. I'll let you know how hard it was to get them pushed back in. I might well end up turning a piece of hardwood to make the proper-sized pusher.


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## coxhaus (Jul 18, 2011)

I don't remember which Delta contractor table saw I had but the arbor bearings were fairly cheap. I want to say $20 or less plus they are easy to replace. Don't give up on the saw. Take the belt and blade off and spin the arbor. If it is ruff replace the bearings. 

After taking the belt off if it is the motor then take it to a motor shop and they will replace the bearing for a $100 or less. This will be cheaper than buying a new motor. I would not run the motor with bad bearings as you might let the magic smoke out of the motor in which case you will need a new motor.


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

kklowell said:


> Will do. So far it wasn't hard to get the two shaft bearings out. I'll let you know how hard it was to get them pushed back in. I might well end up turning a piece of hardwood to make the proper-sized pusher.



How about a big socket?


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## kklowell (Dec 26, 2014)

I found a socket the correct diameter to push on the outer race but one bearing needs to be pushed about 6 inches by the inner race so I'll need to find or make a tube to do that. 
I'm replacing both arbor shaft bearings and the belt end of the motor shaft bearing. The other bearing spins perfectly smoothly and quietly and would be quite difficult to replace as well.


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## coxhaus (Jul 18, 2011)

I think I used a jack handle off a hydraulic jack. It was the right size to fit over the shaft and matched the bearing. I tapped the handle and on went the bearing.


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## kklowell (Dec 26, 2014)

Thanks for the idea... I have one of those and I'll try it in the morning.


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## greenacres2 (Dec 23, 2011)

If the shaft is cooled (refrigerator/freezer for an hour or two) and the new bearings are warm (on a heat vent or even in one's pocket for the same time) the bearings will press on much easier. Doesn't take a lot of temperature differential to make a difference given the tolerance involved. 
earl


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## kklowell (Dec 26, 2014)

That's a great idea too. Thanks.


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## kklowell (Dec 26, 2014)

honesttjohn said:


> Let me know how hard it was to change the bearings please.


I wouldn't call it hard, but it is necessary to pay attention. I made a mistake and did not put the blade end bearing in the housing first and I should have as it was difficult to get the bearing in the housing pressing only on the outer race once it was on the shaft. Had it been one of the two cheap bearings I would have taken it off the shaft, gotten another new bearing and done it the right way, but that one bearing was about $20 so I didn't want to toss it.
The order I did the bearings in was 1)Blade end of the arbor shaft, 2)press the two bearings in the belt-end housing, and then put that down over both shafts. I pressed the bearing on the motor shaft and the arbor shaft bearing went down at the same time. I did heat the housing with my heat gun first, to the point where it was almost too hot to handle. The heat from that transferred to the bearing so they went on their shafts easily. The shafts had been in my cold garage so they were quite cold.
The most difficult part of the whole thing was getting the new belt on. There's no adjustment so it goes on hard! It actually ends up feeling like it's too tight.
The saw is not quiet, but it sounds like it always did before this new noise started so I'm happy. Tomorrow I'll check for square and true and get to work!


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## Daikusan (Apr 12, 2013)

Belt tension affects the alignment. As your belt wears the alignment will go out. Just a heads up


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