# Did I make a bad purchase



## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Hi all . I recently ordered a general international router table which comes with there lift , fence etc, but now I'm doing more research and just seen reviews on the 
jessem mast-r lift II , and am kinda kicking myself as I really like the idea of having a crank on the table to change the lift position.
I found a review on the jessem and it seems they had some bugs at first , like when they installed the blocks that held the router in place it distorted the carriage enough to cause binding on the rails . I'm assuming it's been addressed? 
Btw I ordered a porter cable 75182 router for my general international table . It's just the motor , no base .
So should I suck it up and stay with the general , or try to kibosh the order and go with the jessem table ? 
Thanks in advance , Rick

Being the dummy that I am I gave our windsor plywood dealer 400 bucks down towards the general router table . It takes them forever to get anything to bc , so maybe I can convince them to let me buy another general product so I can buy the jessem threw lee valley .
Or am I over thinking this whole thing ?


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## 94781 (Apr 24, 2013)

RanMan1 said:


> Hi all . I recently ordered a general international router table which comes with there lift , fence etc, but now I'm doing more research and just seen reviews on the
> jessem mast-r lift II , and am kinda kicking myself as I really like the idea of having a crank on the table to change the lift position.
> I found a review on the jessem and it seems they had some bugs at first , like when they installed the blocks that held the router in place it distorted the carriage enough to cause binding on the rails . I'm assuming it's been addressed?
> Btw I ordered a porter cable 75182 router for my general international table . It's just the motor , no base .
> ...


The General International Excaliber router table got top pick in FWW 2014 Tool Review. That being said, Jessem makes very fine products. If you really want the Jessem, then I would contact the dealer right away and tell him to cancel the order. You should get a refund without issues. By the way, how long ago did you order the General?


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## Semipro (Mar 22, 2013)

Hello Rick, really pleased to see you join the community, welcome to Router Forums!
Call buyers remorse,I think everybody goes through it, i'm sure we can find someone to Tell you that is no good and also find somebody to tell it great product. I know nothing about the table I believe the porter cable 75182 is good router, Rick if you are really uncomfortable with it you might try a change the order for your own piece of mind.


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## GunnerB52 (Mar 3, 2009)

Rick I don't know anything about the table and lift that you ordered, but I have a mast r liftII and I have had no issues like you described. I can crank it up and down with 1 finger, no binding, very smooth.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Hi, Rick; welcome!
-Dan (Sunshine Coast, B.C.)


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Hi, Rick; welcome!
Is this the table you've got on order?
General International Router Table [GEN-40200C] - $1,099.95 : KMS Tools & Equipment from Vancouver BC, Largest selection of tools in Canada
It _has_ an above the table crank...I think I'm not clear on why you want the Jessem instead?

-Dan (Sunshine Coast, B.C.)


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## paduke (Mar 28, 2010)

Semipro said:


> Hello Rick, really pleased to see you join the community, welcome to Router Forums!
> Call buyers remorse,I think everybody goes through it, i'm sure we can find someone to Tell you that is no good and also find somebody to tell it great product. I know nothing about the table I believe the porter cable 75182 is good router, Rick if you are really uncomfortable with it you might try a change the order for your own piece of mind.


Very Well said John. Rarely does realization equal anticipation


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## Shortslvs (Jan 13, 2013)

I have a rule. When I buy something I stop shopping for it. Otherwise I always find something better or the same thing for less. Best to just stop shopping - less painful


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

I agree about stopping shopping once I buy something. Unless it just doesn't work, or the quality is just too low, I find myself happy in the end.


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## 94781 (Apr 24, 2013)

Shortslvs said:


> I have a rule. When I buy something I stop shopping for it. Otherwise I always find something better or the same thing for less. Best to just stop shopping - less painful


I definitely agree with this practice, though I must say that if you're really unhappy with the order, then contacting the seller ASAP is the best thing you can do. Waiting too long will only complicate the situation.

I actually first saw this unit at my local Woodcraft store around Christmas time. The total cost for the package, including the lift, cast iron top, fence, stand, dust collection and slide fence was $1099. The manager there told me that it was given top pick in FWW 2014 Tool Review. I looked it up in that review and sure enough, and FWW listed the price at $1100. So, I thought great. I went back about two weeks ago to look at it again. Now the price is raised to $1350. I was at first tempted but on second thought it is really overpriced at $1350 when compared to other very fine brand name table, lift, fence, stand combinations.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

*Upgrade*

Thanks for the welcome and the replies all .
I have never used a lift so I can't judge to harshly yet , but I thought seeing as the Jessem excel II has a crank mounted on the side of the table , wouldn't that be far easier than trying to continually pushing a crank down the top to make adjustments ? 
Anyways I just sold my contractors saw , I used my older PC router and just secured the base to the right extention . The table saw had a 32.5 inch cut with beisemeyer fence . So I sold it and now have a general 270 table saw with a 52 inch Excalibur fence .
So I was going to try and mount my old router in the right side extension as sometimes I need a large area to route , and then buy my first real router table for small stuff .
Or instead of a separate router table , 
there is a system with General where you can just add there cast 16" cast router table extension right to your table saw , but if you have a left hand cut on your table saw it will not fit the left side as the motor is in the way .
The other scenario is bolt there extension to the right side where all that unused real-estate is , but the bad part is you will have the factory cast extension connected to the melamine extension connected to the cast router table extension . Kinda hard to keep that all level . 
Wish I could post a pic but the site won't let me yet. I could photoshop it and you'd get the idea right away .
So this is pretty much ending up being a headache lol . Maybe I'll go back to mounting my old router to the right melamine extension on the TS , and then just live with the new router table from general :/


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Dan that is the same table is ordered as it's on sale right now in Canada for $1,100 .
I think having the crank always accessible on the side is much less antiquated then having to put a crank threw the top of the table every time you want to make a fine adjustment.
That's where I think general went wrong , not the end of the world or anything , but seems like the jessem is a better design for moving the lift .

Btw thx for the welcome and posts all


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## 94781 (Apr 24, 2013)

RanMan1 said:


> Dan that is the same table is ordered as it's on sale right now in Canada for $1,100 .
> I think having the crank always accessible on the side is much less antiquated then having to put a crank threw the top of the table every time you want to make a fine adjustment.
> That's where I think general went wrong , not the end of the world or anything , but seems like the jessem is a better design for moving the lift .
> 
> Btw thx for the welcome and posts all


Just curious, but what did you end up doing?


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

DoItMyselfToo said:


> Just curious, but what did you end up doing?


Well nothing yet .
I wanted to mention that I had my older porter cable mounted under my contractors saws extension. It worked , but nothing fancy , as all I did was mount the base under the extension and then installed my biggest router bit and raised the router till it made a hole in the extension.
I do need to have a large area to route on occasion , so using a table saws fence and extension is great in some instances .

Ok fast forwarding to today , I have sold my contractors saw that had a beismeyer 31.5" fence , and recently bought a General 270 cabinet saw with a 52" Excalibur fence .
So I was debating to be lazy and mount the base of my old router under its extension,
and also buy a separate router table for smaller material . 
Now I'm thinking about this dilemma and I thought maybe install a router plate in the table saws extension , or a lift . But a lift I heard will eventually warp the melamine table so that concerns me . 

Or I could go to Windsor and go with the cast router extension that fits there lift instead of getting a table .It's pretty much the same thing , only the router table isn't connected to the table saw . 
The issue here is , I can't remove my 11" extension that is on the left hand side of the table saw as the saw is a left tilt and the motor is in the way of the router lift . 
Another option is to mount the General cast router plate to the right hand of the saw , and that is what I prefer to do as there's all that wasted space there , but now your going to have to cut the factory melamine extension and add the router plate extension to it . So now you will have three different extensions on the right hand side if this makes any sense .
Or cut the fence to about 36"s and bolt the 16" router plate to the factory 11" plate etc.
Or I could see a psychiatrist as I think there covered on our health care plan


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

RanMan1 said:


> Hi all . I recently ordered a general international router table which comes with there lift , fence etc, but now I'm doing more research and just seen reviews on the
> jessem mast-r lift II , and am kinda kicking myself as I really like the idea of having a crank on the table to change the lift position.
> I found a review on the jessem and it seems they had some bugs at first , like when they installed the blocks that held the router in place it distorted the carriage enough to cause binding on the rails . I'm assuming it's been addressed?
> Btw I ordered a porter cable 75182 router for my general international table . It's just the motor , no base .
> ...



Rick, as everybody that reads my threads and posts, they all know that I swear by the JessEm Mast R II lift. I bought mine through Incra so I have the magnetic insert rings which I like very much. You won't be sorry if you can go that route.

A simple example of one of the things that I like is, say you want to cut quarter inch deep rabbet in a workpiece. Zero the top of the bit with the top of the router plate and crank the lift up by .250" and you will be dead on and ready to go, that's only one simple part of taking advantage of the lifts features. It's done from the top of the table and the scale is easy to read marked off in .002" increments. Half way between two of the marks is just .001" more accuracy than most people will ever need, you will love yours if you go that route.

Jerry


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## 94781 (Apr 24, 2013)

RanMan1 said:


> Well nothing yet .
> I wanted to mention that I had my older porter cable mounted under my contractors saws extension. It worked , but nothing fancy , as all I did was mount the base under the extension and then installed my biggest router bit and raised the router till it made a hole in the extension.
> I do need to have a large area to route on occasion , so using a table saws fence and extension is great in some instances .
> 
> ...


Is this the saw?

General 50-270KDL-M1 10" Cabinet Saw with Table and Legs


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Yes Gareth that is the same saw , although for some reason the picture has a smaller melamine extension as mine goes right to the end of the rear rail . But yes , otherwise it's the same .


Jerry , thanks for the info regarding the jessem table and lift . I sure like the fact it has a crank on the side . You watch, General will have a crank underneath as well next year . Just how hard is it to engineer a simple crank on the side of a table for crying out loud

Geez you guys are quick around here lol


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Weird as an earlier post with a picture is working now , I thought I'd lost it ? Sorry for repeating myself as I kinda posted the same info twice.
I just tried to post a pic of my new setup and now it's telling me I can't post anything with a URL in it until I hit 10 posts . But one from earlier is working . Very confusing


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## 94781 (Apr 24, 2013)

RanMan1 said:


> Yes Gareth that is the same saw , although for some reason the picture has a smaller melamine extension as mine goes right to the end of the rear rail . But yes , otherwise it's the same .


Well, if that were my saw, I would be very hard pressed to gut into the melamine for anything, especially during the first 6 months of newness.

Let us know how it goes. Maybe a few gloat pictures too?


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

DoItMyselfToo said:


> Well, if that were my saw, I would be very hard pressed to gut into the melamine for anything, especially during the first 6 months of newness.
> 
> Let us know how it goes. Maybe a few gloat pictures too?



You know that is exactly how I'm feeling about that right now . I guess nothing is irreversible , but still.
I haven't done anything to it yet . One more post and I think I can post a pic or two


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Ok I hit ten posts , so now I can post pictures! 
Here is the new saw . I bought a wood pecker dial gauge and she is quite accurate . I know this is a router forum so I hope I don't get in trouble talking about the saw .
But the trunnion to miter slot is only out .002" , so that's reasonable , and I have the toe out on the fence .005" . The only bad thing about having toe out is if I was to install the router again and use the table saws fence, that little bit of run out could be an issue in some circumstances .

I almost hate to install the router in the table saws extension , but it comes in handy .




I used the router on my last table saw to cut the hole in this aluminum checker plate . By using the fence as a guide I got a perfect hole . I don't think a router table would be big enough to do this IMO .
I could have made a router guide out of mdf but I was to impatient


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## 94781 (Apr 24, 2013)

RanMan1 said:


>


Rick - if this is my saw, I'm not cutting into that beauty for anything. Okay, maybe after six months or a year. But not until I wear it in a little bit. Again, nice machine. It reminds me of my Grizzly 1023RL.

Grizzly.com


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

DoItMyselfToo said:


> Rick - if this is my saw, I'm not cutting into that beauty for anything. Okay, maybe after six months or a year. But not until I wear it in a little bit. Again, nice machine. It reminds me of my Grizzly 1023RL.
> 
> Grizzly.com



Thanks .
I have to say it's quite the beast , 524 pounds of it . Any equipment can cause a possible injury , but I gotta tell you this is more intimidating when it's running than my contractor saw was . 
And you've got me a little concerned about making it into a router table now .I'm listening to you and I think I'm going to kibosh the whole idea .

I can't wait to get a dedicated router table though , and as an added bonus I'll have a dust collection system . I do have the dust collector but I need to upgrade my garages panel to 100 amp 
. I think I'm going to tough it out and just go with what I ordered , the general router system .
Dang , and I could have got the jessem at LeeValley for 850 bucks, stupid me

http://www.general.ca/products/2_excalibur/40-200.html

For anyone not familiar with general international router table ,here's the link ^^^
It comes with the lift and fence .


http://www.general.ca/promo/Flyer-promo-wood_ENG.pdf

^^^Here's the spring promotion in Canada . If you scroll down to page 3 of 16 you can see the kinda cool setup they have where you can actually bolt directly to the table saw . I asked them why they just don't make a large one piece table that you could bolt to the right hand side and they said it wouldn't be feasible expense wise . To bad


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## 94781 (Apr 24, 2013)

RanMan1 said:


> Thanks .
> I have to say it's quite the beast , 524 pounds of it . Any equipment can cause a possible injury , but I gotta tell you this is more intimidating when it's running than my contractor saw was .
> And you've got me a little concerned about making it into a router table now .I'm listening to you and I think I'm going to kibosh the whole idea .
> 
> ...


Rick - The General Excaliber router table is a very nice set-up. If my local Woodcraft hadn't raised the price $250 above MSRP, I would have very likely gone for it myself. You'll probably be very happy with it.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Thanks for the input Gareth . Hopefully it's half decent . I'll be happy if the table isn't warped , as I'm not liking the international part of this equation.

I have to say , I can't find squat for reviews on this table . Some on the jessem though


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

GunnerB52 said:


> Rick I don't know anything about the table and lift that you ordered, but I have a mast r liftII and I have had no issues like you described. I can crank it up and down with 1 finger, no binding, very smooth.


I have the JessEm also...

Sweet!!!


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Stick486 said:


> I have the JessEm also...
> 
> Sweet!!!


Your killing me here ! 
Well I'll talk to the dealer today . Maybe I'll take the general sanding table spindle rotor instead , and order the Jessem router table from lee valley . Visas taking a beating here 


#15-020 M1 ? Oscillating spindle sander
This is the sander . May come in handy


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Ok problem averted here . I put the kibosh on the entire table assembly and just ordered Generals lift . I am going to mount the lift in the melamine part of my table saw whether I like it or not . I figure if I guy removes the lift when it's not in use it shouldn't warp the extension table . 
I think I can make a plate to act as a cover when the lift is not in place to keep that clean look .
Now all I have to do is figure out how to route a perfect drop in the melamine for the router lift . I suspect you build a jig and use the boundaries of the inside of the jig to guide the router . I will have to do some research here and see what the recommended way to do it is. Maybe some reinforcing underneath is in order to? 

 

^^^
here's the lift I have coming to install in the table saw 



And I guess it's time to order the JessEm router table now!


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Here is the one from JessEm I want to get . Guys is there anything else I should order ? 
I see they make pretty unique feather boards to 

JessEm™ Mast-R-Lift Excel II™ - Lee Valley Tools

I guess a guy could order the digital readout and really go high tech here . Probably not necessary , but it's not a lot of money either (and I like high tech )


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Rick; you've put a lot of energy into this process, so you've obviously considered the pros and cons of not being able to use the TS for sheet goods while you've got the router set up. And vice versa of course.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

DaninVan said:


> Rick; you've put a lot of energy into this process, so you've obviously considered the pros and cons of not being able to use the TS for sheet goods while you've got the router set up. And vice versa of course.



Yes there's no issue there . It's just to easy to lower the routers bit if you need a cut . As a matter of fact , seeing as the router is at the right hand part of the table saw ,it would rarely get in the way as it's not often that I cut sheets at 4 feet wide .
Good point though . 

I do like the idea of having two different router tables . One for big stuff and one for small with the feather boards and stuff.
I still don't think you can have to many routers , just not enough real estate


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

I have a Lee Valley steel top which is on a bench top frame and I like using it for small parts. I'm fairly tall so having it on a bench or on the tailgate of a pickup is perfect if I'm doing that kind of work. For larger parts I like to use my floor model table.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> I have a Lee Valley steel top which is on a bench top frame and I like using it for small parts. I'm fairly tall so having it on a bench or on the tailgate of a pickup is perfect if I'm doing that kind of work. For larger parts I like to use my floor model table.


I like the fact that a router table is 36"s tall instead of 34"s like my table saw .
It's surprising what a difference two inches can make

It would be nice if I could find a router top to put over a wider amount of the melamine ? 
I'll check LeeValley and see what's available


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Geez I am so confused lol . Now I'm debating to build a router table into my out feed table for the table saw .
I seen some crazy home built router tables here , but I just don't have the time to get that elaborate , plus I only like 10 projects going at once .

My outfield table is 1" mdf now , but I was think of removing a section of mdf out of the one end and attaching generals cast router table to it .

http://www.general.ca/products/2_excalibur/40-070.html

Our Windsor store would have to order it so it's 6 weeks at best , but they do have a Freud router fence in stock if I want to build it from scratch .


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Problem resolved .
I just ordered the JessEm excel lift . I watched a review on YouTube and was pretty impressed to say the least .
I have cancelled my general lift as I did it's table and fence . I just think going threw the top of the table with a crank is antiquated , although I've never tried either so I guess I can't really judge .
Hopefully JessEm is a solid product . I just seen a review on this forum and some screw had stripped inside the JeesEm crank assembly . Hopefully it was a freak incident ?

Oh I also ordered the digital read out . Kind of a cool feature I think 

http://www.leevalley.com/en/Wood/page.aspx?p=69204&cat=1,43053,69192

I didn't look close enough but I could have ordered it without the stand? In that case maybe it would have been possible to build it into my out feed table and not bothered with the stand . Oh well , to late now . I guess I can always use the stand if things change in the future. And you can see I change my mind a lot lol


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## 94781 (Apr 24, 2013)

RainMan1 said:


> I didn't look close enough but I could have ordered it without the stand? In that case maybe it would have been possible to build it into my out feed table and not bothered with the stand . Oh well , to late now . I guess I can always use the stand if things change in the future. And you can see I change my mind a lot lol


I think getting the JessEm lift with their stand is probably a good idea. You'll be able to begin using the table ASAP, which is of value.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

DoItMyselfToo said:


> I think getting the JessEm lift with their stand is probably a good idea. You'll be able to begin using the table ASAP, which is of value.



Things aren't going to well as the GI got shipped . The Windsor plywood dealer was pretty good about it and told me it wasn't the end of the world if I didn't take it , but out of principle I'm starting to feel bad about it .
I should have joined here and done my homework before ordering it . I am jumping all over the place now and cancelled the jessem also . It hasn't been shipped though .

I'm all hot and bothered by Incra's products now .
Having there system to adjust the fence in small values looks indispensable to me .
I guess if I was to extend the GI cast table somehow I could implement the Incra fence and adjuster on the Its table . 
I'm really thinking the GI is an antiquated fence technology IMO . There engineers are most likely mostly ex GM employees , as there 5 years behind everyone else . Oh GM did put a step in the rear bumper there trucks this year to compete with Fords tail gate step . Big whoop lol


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## 94781 (Apr 24, 2013)

RainMan1 said:


> Things aren't going to well as the GI got shipped . The Windsor plywood dealer was pretty good about it and told me it wasn't the end of the world if I didn't take it , but out of principle I'm starting to feel bad about it .
> I should have joined here and done my homework before ordering it . I am jumping all over the place now and cancelled the jessem also . It hasn't been shipped though .
> 
> I'm all hot and bothered by Incra's products now .
> ...


Regarding the GI being shipped and not taking it, I wouldn't feel bad about it. This is business. You should pay for what you want. It's not like you have the GI in your shop, using it for a month, and then return it expecting a full refund. The GI was just ordered. The Windsor fella is going to be able to sell the GI. Someone will want it for sure. But either way, it's not your issue to worry about.

JessEm products are great. I don't think that you would go wrong with them. They're also made in Canada, which I also think is a good thing. And if you order from JessEm directly, you get a very good deal. They have three table options. The best deal is to be had from the Rout-R-Lift II. The next best is the Mast-R-Lift II, and the last best deal is the Mast-R-Lift Excel II. All in terms of price, I mean. Here's the link:

Router Table Packages

The Incra LS Positioner system is fantastic. But it is really more for the specialty joinery applications. While you can do other kinds of routing, it's main "thing", if you will, is the joinery.

Personally, I have found this decision process a little bit of a challenge, also. The bottom line is to figure out which one you're ordering and then STOP looking around at the other stuff. OR you will drive yourself into buyer's remorse. That's no way to "enjoy" a new machine. I almost did this recently when I purchased a 6" Powermatic jointer.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Gareth thanks for the moral support l, I needed that lol . I was sort of wondering about the reasoning behind the elaborate fence adjusting system on the Incra , if it's just for jointing and what not I guess I could pass on it , but I have to say when I was watching there videos some of the joints and things they made were very cool . Although it makes me wonder how we got by in the first place as there's people making sophisticated joints today without Incra's RT I would think? 

I'm sure getting critical here ,as before all I did was install my PC under the extension wing of my contractors saw and called it a day , no remove able rings or anything , just a hole for to fit the biggest bit lol. Used the TS fence as a router fence to , so I wasn't even aware that you could do jointing with a router till I joined here . Not that a real jointer wouldn't be better yet I suspect . But I could a router table bring better for really small stuff .

I really have my heart set on building a RT so hopefully I can kibosh the idea of getting the GI . I could use the lift still I guess.
I have been scheming up how to raise and lower a router table to change heights ,and my latest idea I think is doable.
At first I was thinking about going with 2 linear actuators and having one on each end of the RT , but then you need elaborate electronics to keep them both in sync . 
So now my latest idea is to use those thick threaded rods you can buy at any retailer and have them mounted internally in the router table , one on each corner . You could have them spinning threw a nut attached to the underside of the table , and by having sprockets on them and a chain linking all four together they would all stay in harmony as a DC motor moves the chain . 
Dam , so many ideas , so little time


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

I respectfully strongly disagree with you, Gareth. When you custom order you enter into a contract. Whether the seller holds you to it, takes a deposit (which actually defines 'contract') or just plays it very loose, it's still an agreement to purchase. 
When no one respects their contractual obligations any longer, we're in deep doo-doo, society wise.

This all started with the Department stores, back in the 50's, taking stuff back without a good reason for returning it. I remember my sisters talking about going down to The Bay to buy a dress for a party, then planning on returning it the following week. Even as a young kid that concept repelled me. Wrong, just wrong.


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## dclark1043 (Mar 6, 2012)

*regarding your "bad choice"*

Rainman, I have both General and Jessem tools, I have only one bit of advice about your concern that you "shoulda" purchased the Jessem. I did purchase the Jessem and although it is a beautifully manufactured item and is pretty eye candy; the down side is their customer service-- I own their sliding table for the table saw, and their Router table, and their service has completely soured me on jessem. Seems they don't want to "waste" time on taking care of those who brought em to the dance. Sad as I really liked their product; but will never do business with them again.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

dclark1043 said:


> Rainman, I have both General and Jessem tools, I have only one bit of advice about your concern that you "shoulda" purchased the Jessem. I did purchase the Jessem and although it is a beautifully manufactured item and is pretty eye candy; the down side is their customer service-- I own their sliding table for the table saw, and their Router table, and their service has completely soured me on jessem. Seems they don't want to "waste" time on taking care of those who brought em to the dance. Sad as I really liked their product; but will never do business with them again.


That concerns me . Now that you mentioned customer service , I read where Incra was top notch.
It's to bad Incra can't design a crank under the table for there router lift to . I mean you guys supposedly put a man on the moon in 69 ,yet Incra can't engineer a router lift with an underside crank on it? 
I really should have been an engineer


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

Rick...

Woodpeckers used to offer a "Side Winder Accessory" <<a crank handle>> for their PRl-V2 router lifts. I just checked and I can't seem to find it on thier website. so, not sure if it
is still available. but...for those who did get one, I can't recall reading a bad review of the thing. The PRL-V2 is pretty much an Incra lift as far as I know. If a crank is what your after, might be well worth your looking into. Here is the PDF on the crank that was offered by Woodpeckers: 

http://www.woodpeck.com/media/SIDE_WINDER_ACCESSORY_INSTRUCTIONS.pdf


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

TwoSkies57 said:


> Rick...
> 
> Woodpeckers used to offer a "Side Winder Accessory" <<a crank handle>> for their PRl-V2 router lifts. I just checked and I can't seem to find it on thier website. so, not sure if it
> is still available. but...for those who did get one, I can't recall reading a bad review of the thing. The PRL-V2 is pretty much an Incra lift as far as I know. If a crank is what your after, might be well worth your looking into. Here is the PDF on the crank that was offered by Woodpeckers:
> ...


Interesting Bill , I'll do some research .And thanks

One thing I noticed is , doesn't the Incra have a lock on the top of there lift so that it will not change it's position with all that vibration ? I'm not seeing any type of a lock down on the GI lift which kinda concerned me about there lift . Although it is a different design and you would hope they took that possibility into consideration . Or maybe it's going to take them a second attempt


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

Rick... yes, there is a micro adjustment wheel that locks into position with an allen wrench. I've never had a problem with losing an adjustment. I'm not familiar with the GI lifts.. The Side winder requires a specific amount of clearance one way or the other.. I forger exactly how much, 4"s maybe?...On my table, I didn't have enough clearance, that was the only reason I never go one. 

Regarding Incra customer service. Outstanding!! 

For the record, the only complaint and I use that word half heartedly, is that the micro adjustment wheel has some slop in it when first engaged. I can tell ya, that after 5 years of light to moderate use, the concern has been long since been blown off.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

TwoSkies57 said:


> Rick... yes, there is a micro adjustment wheel that locks into position with an allen wrench. I've never had a problem with losing an adjustment. I'm not familiar with the GI lifts.. The Side winder requires a specific amount of clearance one way or the other.. I forger exactly how much, 4"s maybe?...On my table, I didn't have enough clearance, that was the only reason I never go one.
> 
> Regarding Incra customer service. Outstanding!!
> 
> For the record, the only complaint and I use that word half heartedly, is that the micro adjustment wheel has some slop in it when first engaged. I can tell ya, that after 5 years of light to moderate use, the concern has been long since been blown off.


Thank you for the input Bill . I love this place . I should have found this forum years ago instead of tinkering with classic cars . This is way more interesting IMO


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## jlarsen5860 (Mar 31, 2013)

DoItMyselfToo said:


> The General International Excaliber router table got top pick in FWW 2014 Tool Review. That being said, Jessem makes very fine products. If you really want the Jessem, then I would contact the dealer right away and tell him to cancel the order. You should get a refund without issues. By the way, how long ago did you order the General?


Without knowing the type of work you want to do, you might be in good shape just staying where you are. Trust your instincts, Luke! Oh, sorry. I got caught in a time warp and thinking i was OB Wan...


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

You're over-thinking this, Rick. Precision tools are great, but there's a hell of a lot of very experienced craftsmen (and women!) doing exceptional work with very basic setups. 
You're supposed to be _enjoying_ this hobby!! 
Take your wife or girlfriend out to a nice Italian restaurant with the money you _would_ have spent on what are essentially (very) expensive toys...


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## 94781 (Apr 24, 2013)

DaninVan said:


> I respectfully strongly disagree with you, Gareth. When you custom order you enter into a contract. Whether the seller holds you to it, takes a deposit (which actually defines 'contract') or just plays it very loose, it's still an agreement to purchase.
> When no one respects their contractual obligations any longer, we're in deep doo-doo, society wise.
> 
> This all started with the Department stores, back in the 50's, taking stuff back without a good reason for returning it. I remember my sisters talking about going down to The Bay to buy a dress for a party, then planning on returning it the following week. Even as a young kid that concept repelled me. Wrong, just wrong.


Disagreement is fine and actually really good in a forum like this. I think it helps us get at a lot of good information and become better at what we do.

Expectations and obligations change over time. And what is acceptable is perception dependent. Some people walk onto a car lot and pay sticker price. Others work out a deal that they find acceptable. Some stores such as Harbor Freight take back most anything within the first 90 days, used or not. There are some exclusions spelled out. But after the 90 days, the purchaser is out of luck. In the ole days, whatever they were, companies used to make stuff that was better built. Now a days, not so much. Hence the HF 90 day warranty.

Whether the store has a restocking fee or special order fee, I don't know. In this day and age, I do stand behind my original post. I think that if the OP does not want the lift he should contact the store ASAP and work it out.


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## 94781 (Apr 24, 2013)

DaninVan said:


> You're over-thinking this, Rick. Precision tools are great, but there's a hell of a lot of very experienced craftsmen (and women!) doing exceptional work with very basic setups.
> You're supposed to be _enjoying_ this hobby!!
> Take your wife or girlfriend out to a nice Italian restaurant with the money you _would_ have spent on what are essentially (very) expensive toys...


I agree with you on this one. But then again, with the internet, so much really great information is available about tools, wood, methods, etc., such as this forum, that it's almost inevitable to, at some point or other, find oneself getting caught up in the details and gadgetry.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Well the first part of the equation is over. I found a PC 75182 on my back deck step this morning! 
Why can't everyday be Christmas , I tell ya .

Now what to do next ? I am still feeling like a POS regarding ordering the GI and reneging on it . I'm really debating to just purchase it and be done with it , and in the future I'll just have to spent another G note plus and do it all over again . 
I guess this way I can build the exact table and configuration I want at some future time .
Kinda depressing though


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

DaninVan said:


> Take your wife or girlfriend out to a nice Italian restaurant with the money you _would_ have spent on what are essentially (very) expensive toys...


No worries there Dan as there's no wife . In my prime years I lived in a little coal mining community called the Crowsnest Pass . We only had 3 choices of woman there , grossly morbidly obese, super grossly morbidly obese , or high school girls . I'm not even close to being equipped for the first two scenarios , and no one likes a ped .
Now that I'm in my 50's I'm in a much nicer town called Cranbrook , but there's not a lot of demand for short far bald guys , so I find hobbies instead 
I should stuck to drinking beer as I think it was cheaper though


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## 94781 (Apr 24, 2013)

RainMan1 said:


> Well the first part of the equation is over. I found a PC 75182 on my back deck step this morning!
> Why can't everyday be Christmas , I tell ya .
> 
> Now what to do next ? I am still feeling like a POS regarding ordering the GI and reneging on it . I'm really debating to just purchase it and be done with it , and in the future I'll just have to spent another G note plus and do it all over again .
> ...


Reading this thread through, I get the sense that you've been kind of undecided about which way you want to go with your router table. You've made some premature decisions and then a little dissatisfied.

Maybe the thing to do is list out what you really want in a table and lift. Then go with it. Bare in mind, the General table and lift are really nice. The JessEm tables and lifts are also exceptional. And the Incra stuff, all of it, is very fine precision gear. But its value is really dependent on the user. Some would not be happy to fuss over all the precision. Others would prefer to keep it low cost and get the job done.

I've looked at each of these. And while I would really like to get a low cost, basic table with a router mounted in a plate for $200, such as this Rockler (Rockler High Pressure Laminate Router Table, Fence, Plate, & Stand-Router Table Packages - Rockler Woodworking Tools), I also do not want to invest $200 or so now only to buy a table and lift in a year.


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## Lanfearh (Oct 26, 2013)

Dave,
I have an Excalibur Cast Iron router table (table only, mounted on my SawStop table saw to replace the right wing extension) with their dust collection and a Jessem lift. I've had the CI top for a couple of years and the Jessem lift much longer. It's a great combo with virtually no dust escapes. I took a look at the Excalibur lift and the one I saw has a crank lift, you may want to look at it again or ask your dealer exactly what it has and if he ordered that specific model.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Lanfearh said:


> Dave,
> I have an Excalibur Cast Iron router table (table only, mounted on my SawStop table saw to replace the right wing extension) with their dust collection and a Jessem lift. I've had the CI top for a couple of years and the Jessem lift much longer. It's a great combo with virtually no dust escapes. I took a look at the Excalibur lift and the one I saw has a crank lift, you may want to look at it again or ask your dealer exactly what it has and if he ordered that specific model.


Dave I ordered the 40-200C . If you scroll down to page 3 of16 there's a table combo there , that's the package I have coming . $1099.99 
I think GI just jacks up there prices then puts a sale on which is pretty much the regular price it was previously 
http://www.general.ca/promo/Flyer-promo-wood_ENG.pdf

Dave I would have liked to have gone with the table extension you mention , but in there video it said both fences or fence rails can't occupy the same place . So in other words I'd have to mount it to the left hand side which would make the freaking table another 16"s wider yet


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

DoItMyselfToo said:


> I've looked at each of these. And while I would really like to get a low cost, basic table with a router mounted in a plate for $200, such as this Rockler I also do not want to invest $200 or so now only to buy a table and lift in a year.


You know this one really hit me in the gut . We're not talking 200 bucks either, more like $1300 after taxes ,so this is really not something I want to do twice if I don't have to .

For piece of mind I'll force Winsor plywood to take a restocking fee as they won't hear of it . But I'll kick and scream till they keep keep the money ! 

I have to say I'm extremely intrigued by those complex joints that can be made after watching Incra's videos , so I think that should be my choice.
Now if Jessem would just build a crank lift for them


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## 94781 (Apr 24, 2013)

RainMan1 said:


> You know this one really hit me in the gut . We're not talking 200 bucks either, more like $1300 after taxes ,so this is really not something I want to do twice if I don't have to .
> 
> For piece of mind I'll force Winsor plywood to take a restocking fee as they won't hear of it . But I'll kick and scream till they keep keep the money !
> 
> ...


Glad to hear that you've figured out what will be the right table for your needs. Good luck. I, and others I'm sure, look forward to pics of the new router set-up.


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## harry123 (Jan 1, 2016)

good


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## harry123 (Jan 1, 2016)

Hi everyone. I know you did really well work as compared to others. Your post give us great information. I really appreciate your work


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## Moz (Nov 13, 2015)

*Information Overload*



DoItMyselfToo said:


> I agree with you on this one. But then again, with the internet, so much really great information is available about tools, wood, methods, etc., such as this forum, that it's almost inevitable to, at some point or other, find oneself getting caught up in the details and gadgetry.


Oh god, YES! As the patient ones (an irritated ones, too!) around here will tell you, the ready availability of data and opinions on the Web can make any expenditure on equipment or accessories a major 2nd, 3rd, and even 4th thought process!!!
And people like me can be really hard to get valid points across to, as we agonize over the minutiae and 'what ifs' of the most mundane points, long ago solved by others...(see sled rails for more...) 

I SO agree with the advice that "once you bought it, stop shopping."
I spend hours, and sometimes days web researching anything I buy online. Some stuff that I go to physical stores to buy, as well.

I hunt. I dig through customer reviews from Amazon, HD, and any other source for the item. I check user manuals online when available. I search for photos from any angle possible. I contemplate, I debate, I *usually* choose one, then go through buyer's remorse before ordering, change my mind, vascillate some more, and often go back to my first choice, or find another option I didn't know about.

Such was the case last night, when, as a "Happy New Year, here's the damn scroll saw you've been whining about for the last month, NO MORE TOOLS!" Gift from Ozer, I bought a General International 16" Benchtop Scroll Saw. And that is all because I had one many years ago, and seeing the beautiful Christmas Ornaments  that CharlieL had made, I've been sighing wistfully every time we've gone to HD or Lowes, or Harbor Freight...:smile:

It started with a used Craftsman on Craigslist for $55 OBO. I researched, learned all about pinless blades (in my time, there was no such animal), found the "great deal" to be not so great - too old, too limited, too expensive, and then went hunting...Delta, Ryobi, Dewalt, Rockwell (run away!), Proloxx, WEN, and then, out of some remote search corner, GI...

I'm a noob, so I've never heard of them, and was surprised at the good reviews a lot of their equipment gets, although I suspect them to be a "mass producer" of chinese knock offs. The blurb for their scroll saw is almost word for word exactly the same as for the WEN scroll saw. On one site, it WAS exactly the same, down to the end tag line, "...remember WEN." But I cannot find any documentation stating that GI is WEN. But I suspect, nonetheless.

The price, with New Years sales, and free shipping came out to under $100, shipped to my door in about a week. For the amount of scroll sawing I intend to do (Charlie's ornaments, and beehive window and door frames - to make them look like a doll house), I figure it will suffice my needs, with enough bells and whistles (light, air blower, and 'patented' blade quick change system) to justify the additional $35. At least that was my argument to Ozer, and I'm sticking with it!

But now that I made my choice, I refuse to shop for them ever again. My experience is that when I do, my 'buyer's regret,' is because the damn thing goes on sale.

There will almost always be something faster/better/stronger/newer on the market for anything you purchase. But generally, the differences are negligible, and are 'extras,' because the basic function of whatever it is, will be the same.

Be glad you were able to change your mind before delivery, be glad you chose the other lifter, and now, enjoy it. 
No looking back. No regrets. You did it "your way." (Apologies to Frank Sinatra)...

~M


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

harry123 said:


> Hi everyone. I know you did really well work as compared to others. Your post give us great information. I really appreciate your work


Welcome to the forum Harry . You should post in the introduction area and fill out your profile so we can get to know you better


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Great comments, Moz.
Man, do I ever relate to the second guessing myself thing.... 
Enjoy the new scroll saw, eh!


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Moz said:


> I SO agree with the advice that "once you bought it, stop shopping."


I disagree as I love shopping ! There's nothing like coming home from work and there being yet another unnessesary package dropped off on your doorstep by the Purolator or UPS guy , whether you need it or not lol


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## Moz (Nov 13, 2015)

Nuuuu. I mean stop shopping for what you've bought. 
Like an old commercial, where a guy is driving home with his brand new, top of the line, PC in the front seat next to him, and as he stops at a light, the billboard guys next to the light are changing a PC billboard of his PC to show a newer model has come out...

You can't keep shopping for what you already bought. There is too much other new stuff to shop for... 
~M


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Moz said:


> Nuuuu. I mean stop shopping for what you've bought.
> Like an old commercial, where a guy is driving home with his brand new, top of the line, PC in the front seat next to him, and as he stops at a light, the billboard guys next to the light are changing a PC billboard of his PC to show a newer model has come out...
> 
> You can't keep shopping for what you already bought. There is too much other new stuff to shop for...
> ~M


Gotcha . I'm kinda sad cause I've bought everything . Now I just have to build them so I can actually use them . Well first I have to insulate my garage 

I'm one of those put the cart before the horse kinda guys :|


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

*$*$%#$%##@( !!!*



TheCableGuy said:


> I disagree as I love shopping ! There's nothing like coming home from work and there being yet another unnessesary package dropped off on your doorstep by the Purolator or UPS guy , whether you need it or not lol


Dontcha just love coming to the door as the guy's driving away?


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

DaninVan said:


> Dontcha just love coming to the door as the guy's driving away?


Yes it gives me a warm fuzzy feeling . My neighbor actually questioned me the other day wondering why the trucks weren't pulling up everyday . Got a laugh out of that


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