# Can I take deeper cut with more HP?



## JohnnyB60 (Jun 15, 2009)

I’m in the market to buy a dedicated Router for my router table and I can’t decide if I want to pay twice the amount for only 1 HP.

The thing is that I have never bogged down my 2 HP routers no matter what I have done. The only thing that happens is that I burn up bits. I might be persuaded to spend the extra money if I can make every cut in one pass, if that’s possible.


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## timbertailor (Oct 4, 2009)

JohnnyB60 said:


> I’m in the market to buy a dedicated Router for my router table and I can’t decide if I want to pay twice the amount for only 1 HP.
> 
> The thing is that I have never bogged down my 2 HP routers no matter what I have done. The only thing that happens is that I burn up bits. I might be persuaded to spend the extra money if I can make every cut in one pass, if that’s possible.


Cutting in multiple passes is a myth. The best way to preserve blade life and reduce friction is to cut in one pass. Heat is removed by the wood chips. Fewer chips, less heat removal.

Try it. You will thank me later.


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## JohnnyB60 (Jun 15, 2009)

timbertailor said:


> Cutting in multiple passes is a myth. The best way to preserve blade life and reduce friction is to cut in one pass. Heat is removed by the wood chips. Fewer chips, less heat removal.
> 
> Try it. You will thank me later.


Oh thanks, you are the first one to say this. I've been told for at least 20 or so years that I have to make multiple passes. I've used my table saw to make dadoes because it was easier to push a chisel then to keep razing the router bit.
I'll give it a try


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## timbertailor (Oct 4, 2009)

JohnnyB60 said:


> Oh thanks, you are the first one to say this. I've been told for at least 20 or so years that I have to make multiple passes. I've used my table saw to make dadoes because it was easier to push a chisel then to keep razing the router bit.
> I'll give it a try


I should add one clarification, never cut deeper than the bit width. The advice I am giving comes straight from the Bosch engineers at the factory.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

timbertailor said:


> Cutting in multiple passes is a myth. The best way to preserve blade life and reduce friction is to cut in one pass. Heat is removed by the wood chips. Fewer chips, less heat removal.
> 
> Try it. You will thank me later.


and to validate what you say...

Router Forums - View Single Post - Rethinking router folklore....


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## kp91 (Sep 10, 2004)

Chip ejection is key. Some woods clog bits more than others.

Wider diameter bits need more HP or lighter cuts.


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## Quillman (Aug 16, 2010)

"Oh thanks, you are the first one to say "
************************************
You may pull back a stub too.
For example, a single path cut with a straight bit at depth, will
cut a pathway wider than the cutter. You want that?
Moreover, breakage is common whence the cutter is engaged in too much work.
In the class room, if I hear the scream of a cutter deep in the work, the next thing I see is blue smoke.
As obnoxious and slow as it may be, the best of cuts are taken in steps.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

I tend to agree with Pat. If you are too deep the chips have a hard time being ejected and the result is lots of heat. Straight bits in particular don't eject them well. I've found that a saw cut almost to depth first makes a huge difference in routing effort, heat, and bit life. The chips eject easier and the bit gets air for cooling.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Good advice on multiple cuts. At the price of bits, I'd prefer to make shallow cuts, and I have a 3hp router. I just don't think powering through hard woods in particular, is a good idea.


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## JohnnyB60 (Jun 15, 2009)

I probably wouldn't mind making multiple cuts if I had a router lift. As it stands now it's not only a pain to raise the router for each cut, but also a safety hazard. I almost got hurt last week trying to raise the router when I accidentally turned on the switch. A few years ago my PC router fell out of it's base while I was cutting. I don't know if I forgot to lock it or if the leaver came loose. I've placed wood blocks under the router ever since just in case it happens again.

OK well I am going to purchase a router lift sometime soon and I'll have to play around with the height of cut until I find what works for me.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

JohnnyB60 said:


> ...
> OK well I am going to purchase a router lift sometime soon and I'll have to play around with the height of cut until I find what works for me.


Give the Triton TRA001 a good look. It costs about the same as a good lift, but has one built in. It has 3.25 hp and really handles dust nicely. I just mounted mine in a Woodpecker plate with a twist lock insert and it is a pleasure to use. It has a crank to raise and lower it from above the table and with the twist lock inserts, it is very nice. You may have run across a couple of negative items on the Triton, but most of that has to do with their several changes of distributorship and the problems that produced. But the Triton itself is a great table mounted router.

I really like my Bosch 1617s and they worked well in the table. But by the time I paid for the 1617 and a lift, I'd spent more than the Triton and it was not nearly as convenient to use as the Triton in the Woodpecker plate.


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## kp91 (Sep 10, 2004)

John,

you can cheat and take light cuts without having to change your bit height. You can add a false top of MDF above your router table top effectively lowering the router bit. Make all the first passes, lift it off, you are at your final depth without adjusting the router at all. I have also used this approach by adding spacers to the fence to limit the bite of a bit.

The false hardboard top has a block of wood glued to the front edge to catch on the router table so it doesn't move as you feed the wood into the bit.


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## cocobolo1 (Dec 31, 2015)

A few years back I was visiting a truss manufacturing plant in Lantzville on Vancouver Island. The equipment was pretty much all automatic, which included a finger making setup to cut both ends of the 2 x 4's as they approached the glue up section.
The machine, more a shaper than a router of course, made multiple passes instead of trying to cut the whole depth in one go. I would say it took out about 1/4" per pass and advanced itself automatically with each pass.
About 5 seconds and the joint was done.


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## timbertailor (Oct 4, 2009)

kp91 said:


> Chip ejection is key. Some woods clog bits more than others.
> 
> Wider diameter bits need more HP or lighter cuts.


Can you say, "Milwaukee 5625 3.5HP, and made in America?"

Don't makem like this any more.


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## BrianS (Nov 7, 2004)

JohnnyB60 said:


> I probably wouldn't mind making multiple cuts if I had a router lift. As it stands now it's not only a pain to raise the router for each cut, but also a safety hazard. I almost got hurt last week trying to raise the router when I accidentally turned on the switch. A few years ago my PC router fell out of it's base while I was cutting. I don't know if I forgot to lock it or if the leaver came loose. I've placed wood blocks under the router ever since just in case it happens again.
> 
> OK well I am going to purchase a router lift sometime soon and I'll have to play around with the height of cut until I find what works for me.


This why you ALWAYS UNPLUG your router whenever you are making any adjustments. You only get one set of fingers, and they don't grow back. 

As for the motor falling out, the screw on the lock lever has been known to loosen off, which will prevent the lever from securing the motor properly. An easy fix, and much safer than the wood blocks.


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## JohnnyB60 (Jun 15, 2009)

DesertRatTom said:


> ....... *It has a crank to raise and lower it from above the table* and with the twist lock inserts, it is very nice. You may have run across a couple of negative items on the Triton, but most of that has to do with their several changes of distributorship and the problems that produced. But the Triton itself is a great table mounted router......


Thanks Tom, I got discouraged when I watched a Sommerfeld's Router Tables video and it showed him reaching under the table to release the lock at the very end of the video at 26.29 min. 





If you have one and say that you can unlock it from above, then I will take another look. 

One question I have is if there is any provision for dust collection? 

I just bought a “Keen Dust Collector Kit” and discovered that it barely fits inside my PC 890 fixed base and I'm not sure if it will fit a larger router.


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## JohnnyB60 (Jun 15, 2009)

timbertailor said:


> Can you say, "Milwaukee 5625 3.5HP, and made in America?"
> 
> Don't makem like this any more.


Can this be operated as a lift from above a table?


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## cocobolo1 (Dec 31, 2015)

DesertRatTom said:


> Give the Triton TRA001 a good look. It costs about the same as a good lift, but has one built in. It has 3.25 hp and really handles dust nicely. I just mounted mine in a Woodpecker plate with a twist lock insert and it is a pleasure to use. It has a crank to raise and lower it from above the table and with the twist lock inserts, it is very nice. You may have run across a couple of negative items on the Triton, but most of that has to do with their several changes of distributorship and the problems that produced. But the Triton itself is a great table mounted router.
> 
> I really like my Bosch 1617s and they worked well in the table. But by the time I paid for the 1617 and a lift, I'd spent more than the Triton and it was not nearly as convenient to use as the Triton in the Woodpecker plate.


Tom, thanks for the info.

Looks like it won't be long before a set of kitchen cabinets is going to be needed. I'm going to want a good router with some power I expect, so the Triton sounds OK. It runs $350 Cdn...and Amazon advertises the Kreg 3/8" phenolic plate with it. Kreg says that plate doesn't sag even under the weight of a heavy router. Anyone know if that is a fact or just advertising hype?

Thanks.


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## DonkeyHody (Jan 22, 2015)

timbertailor said:


> Cutting in multiple passes is a myth. The best way to preserve blade life and reduce friction is to cut in one pass. Heat is removed by the wood chips. Fewer chips, less heat removal.
> 
> Try it. You will thank me later.


I hate to disagree with the experts, but this advice runs counter to my experience. . .
There's more than the life of the bit to think about here. The bit is a tool to get the wood to look the way I want it. I'll sacrifice the bit it I have to. I've found that multiple light passes give me a better finish than one heavy cut. I'm not talking about changing the bit height, but using the fence to limit how much of the bit diameter engages the wood. 

Big chips mean greater chance of tear-out where the bit exits the cut on each half-revolution. Multiple passes means the cutting edge exits the wood next to the fence at a shallower angle instead of an angle approaching 90 degrees, which reduces tear-out. 

Speed up your feed rate to avoid burning instead of making deeper cuts. Your wood will thank you.


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## Multiwood (Feb 24, 2013)

I agree with Andy, I always made multi passes and get a good clean cut. I would be afraid of tear out with one cut. 
Brad is the Milwaukee 5625 still made in the US ?


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

Please take me at my word when I say that what I about to say is just my personal opinion. I know that I am inviting controversy when I say it, but I am going to express it anyway.

It is my personal opinion that a dedicated router in a router table without a good lift is really handicapped in comparison to not having one and is just not complete. I will add that a lift that allows for measured and accrete adjustments is also a must, that is of course, for me and my limited as well as personal experience. 

The Incra Mast R lift that I have cost more than did the PC router by about $75, but is well worth it. I think that I should say that I recognize that not everybody is fortunate enough to just spend money on everything that they would like to have in their shop. 

This forum is, as I understand it to be, is a place to express individual opinions on matter such as this issue that has come up so with that said, I do defend my right to my personal opinion and that is all that it is.

As far as multiple passes with a router bit goes, I have never considered any other approach as long as the cut being made is such that it is conducive to that approach. 

Some cuts, such as miter lock cuts cannot be done that way and do indeed require single passes of course.

Perhaps in large production shops where time is very important, multiple cut may not be practical, I wouldn't know, I'm only suspect of the thought, but for myself, a hobbyist, I have plenty of time to fuss with such things and the fussing is, to me, is part of the enjoyment of working with tools. I doubt that I am unique in that thinking.

Hope that this has not muddied the water in regard to answering your question Dave.

Jerry


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

improve your PC and put ceramic 40,00RPM bearings in it...


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## BrianS (Nov 7, 2004)

JohnnyB60 said:


> Can this be operated as a lift from above a table?


I have this router as well and love it. It has built in above table adjustment. It uses a T-handle to turn the adjustment screw.


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## timbertailor (Oct 4, 2009)

JohnnyB60 said:


> Can this be operated as a lift from above a table?


Yes, but I have never used it that way. And good luck finding one. The newer ones are made in China and made of plastic. I have read that they do not work or last too long used as you suggest.

I use a Woodpecker PRLV2 router lift with it.

I realize not everyone can afford to spend the kind of money I do on tools but I got a huge head start on tools when my father passed away and left me his. This saved me a LOT of money that I otherwise would have had to shell out for the basics. I chose to reinvest in more tools and add on to what I inherited. You must also remember that I am getting up in years and have accumulated a lot of tools over those years. It was not an overnight occurrence.

I think I recently ran across a post of someone wishing they were me\us. I can understand but I just wanted to say that most of us didn't just go out and spend $10K in one go. It is always a work in progress so bare that in mind.


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## kp91 (Sep 10, 2004)

timbertailor said:


> I chose to reinvest in more tools and add on to what I inherited. You must also remember that I am getting up in years and have accumulated a lot of tools over those years. It was not an overnight occurrence.
> 
> I think I recently ran across a post of someone wishing they were me\us. I can understand but I just wanted to say that most of us didn't just go out and spend $10K in one go. It is always a work in progress so bare that in mind.


Brad,

Well said. My accumulation of tools has been a long process, often times settling for something inferior at first and upgrading as the need required. There are a lot of second or third hand tools in my shop that I have put a lot of sweat equity into. Those have been swapped or sold to acquire the next one.


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## Multiwood (Feb 24, 2013)

When I first started out in the late 70,s my first tool was a table saw which I still have and use daily. I would
buy one tool a year. Now over 40 years later I have most of what I need. For those who make a router cut in
one pass how would you make a cut for a raised panel? I guess we all have our way of doing things and if they
work than that's the way we do it. Keep it fun.


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## paduke (Mar 28, 2010)

Larry
I use a Triton 3 1/2 hp. I modified the base as shown in the sommerfield video to accomadate large raised panel bit. It will make a panel in one pass in poplar. It took 2 passes in ash but I got some tearout so I did those 3 passees. Hardness and grain are part of the equation. When I first joined the BOB and Rick videos were on the site. The key for me from the video is LISTEN to your router. If it growls to fast or too much feed


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## Multiwood (Feb 24, 2013)

Hay Bill when you did the Ash in 2 or 3 passes didn't you get any burnt edges. I just did four oak raised panels
and I did it in several passes and even than I got some burn, but with a lighter pass at the end it was nice and
clean. Oh and when we do dovetails we do it in one pass. I will have to google Bob & Rick to see what that is.


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## timbertailor (Oct 4, 2009)

The only time I get burning is when I do not get a steady pass. Any accelerations, hesitations, or the like will often lead to burning.

Panel cutters fall into the same category as every other bit in that you do not cut more than the bit width. In the case of a panel cutter, the bit height.


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## Multiwood (Feb 24, 2013)

Yes Brad I was having a hard time with a steady cut so I stopped and waxed the table and that sure helped.


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## Multiwood (Feb 24, 2013)

Brad are you in your new shop?


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## timbertailor (Oct 4, 2009)

Knot working said:


> Brad are you in your new shop?


I wish. I have not found a property yet. I have been waiting to pick up my RV so that I will have something to live in while it is being built.

The bad weather up North, where the Jayco factory is, has made it unsafe to pick up so I have arranged to pick it up on the 1st of March.

It has been difficult to be patient but safety first. Last thing I want to do is slide off the road with a 40 foot trailer in tow and set my entire plan back another three months. (not to mention dealing with insurance).

I have started shopping for metal building solutions and have decided that it will be the quickest way to get settled in and started on my dream shop.

Here is the thread with more details if you are truly interested. Thanks for asking. It is appreciated. Since I can not do anything, talking about it makes me pass the time quicker.:grin::grin::grin::grin:

http://www.routerforums.com/lobby/78233-one-step-closer-my-dream-shop.html


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