# Switch collet from 1/4 to 1/2 inch?



## David McWilliam (Feb 13, 2020)

Hello friends, this is my first post. I am building a router table with an 8 x 11 x 1/2 inch thick aluminum sheet for the insert. Problem is, my sears craftsman router won't extend its collet far enough for the bit to protrude enough through the 1/2 inch thick sheet. If it had a 1/2 inch collet, I'd just get an extension, but the quarter inch collet (from what I've read) will make any extension too frail. So, my question is: can I replace the 1/4 inch collet with an aftermarket 1/2 inch piece? If so, would it be a simple drop in replacement, or would it require more extensive modification? Finally; if this is not possible, do I have any other recourse (other than buying a new router)? Thanks all,
David


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Buying a new router; yes.


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

Methinks you be stuck...not aware of extension for 1/4" shank and have not seen a 1/4 to 1/2 shaft adapter...

Besides the 1/2" board you are using, did you install any additional spacers that you could remove...? Maybe you have the router base plate installed also...? And are there specific bits for which you cannot the proper height...?

A 1/2" doesn't sound like it should prevent proper bit height...some of the table plates sold are 3/8"...

And welcome to the Forum...


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

The collet being part of the shaft makes it hard to enlarge a 1/4" to a 1/2" dia. shank size. I have never seen it done. The minute I read "1/2" inch thick plate the first thing that came to mind was the depth of cut. I think that either a thinner plate or a new router as Dan suggested.
Herb


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

OK; that was just mean. Here's the reasoning;
1) what's the HP on your Craftsman? It may be really underpowered to swing a hefty 1/2" shank bit. 
2) 1/2 Aluminum sheet is massive; why so heavy?
3) folks frequently come to the Forum looking for Craftsman parts. Not a lot of good news in that dept.
4) further to #1, if you've installed a 1/2" collet you will be tempted to use any and all 1/2" bits, even if they're totally inappropriate for your router.
Other than the 1/4" trim routers, most of the modern 1/2" machines are at least 2HP or better. Even then, there are safety and practicality considerations over how big a bit, and how deep a cut one can use.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

If it has ONLY a 1/4 inch collet, time to buy a new router. My fave is the Bosch 1617, which has both a half and quarter inch collet. In other words, you can drop down a size, but not step up to larger. Beside that, the Bosch has the ability to mount under the table and be adjusted through the top. Sorry for the bad news. Don't drill your plate because not all bolt patterns are the same. 

One more thing, when mounting your present router, did you remove the plastic base plate before mounting it? That will give you a quarter inch or so more. Also what size is your opening in the plate. It should be large enough for your largest bit. You use an insert to fit the opening to the bit, which is pretty tricky to make work yourself. That's why most of us just bite the bullet and buy a pre-fitted plate. The pix is of the Woodpecker plate which has a twist lock insert. Kreg also makes plates with twist lock inserts (Blue plate pix), much cheaper that the woodpecker BTW.


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## Semipro (Mar 22, 2013)

David Hello and welcome to the router forum

My suggestion if you really want to learn to enjoy your woodworking buy yourself at least a 2 1/2 horse with 1/4 and 1/2 collets plunge Router you should never need anything else,
No matter what craftsman router you .buy within a year maybe two you won’t be able to find the parts for it 
There are a ton of used-Router’s for sale a lot have never been used
I believe in the long run you’ll be happier


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## PhilBa (Sep 25, 2014)

Many routers have 1/2" collets as well as 1/4". Don't know if your CMan router does or not. That's the first thing to consider. As Dan pointed out, though, that may be a quixotic quest. 

1/2" shank won't really buy you much more height (depth?). As others have pointed out, something doesn't seem quite right. You should have a fair amount of depth for your router. Are you sure you have it mounted correctly?

Finally, I know people are in love with the musclechuck but I think extensions, in general, are a bad idea. I think the MC is safe but would be very leery of anything else. Especially on a 1/4" shank. A broken bit being flung at 24k RPM isn't fun to dodge - don't ask me how I know this. If nothing else you're gonna get more runout so things like box joints and dovetails will be a problem. Best to just bite the bullet and get a newer router with 1/2" and 1/4" collets. Having both is a very useful thing, btw.


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

If you are really Set on using that router you might contact Muscle chuck like Phil suggested:

https://www.amazon.com/MuscleChuck-...=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=B01NAGOCXA

and see if they make a Musclechuck for your router, it will give you a 1/2" more height. But that will be a $100. you could put in another larger router in the near future.
Just a suggestion.
Herb


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## Bstrom (Jan 2, 2020)

PhilBa said:


> Many routers have 1/2" collets as well as 1/4". Don't know if your CMan router does or not. That's the first thing to consider. As Dan pointed out, though, that may be a quixotic quest.
> 
> 1/2" shank won't really buy you much more height (depth?). As others have pointed out, something doesn't seem quite right. You should have a fair amount of depth for your router. Are you sure you have it mounted correctly?
> 
> Finally, I know people are in love with the musclechuck but I think extensions, in general, are a bad idea. I think the MC is safe but would be very leery of anything else. Especially on a 1/4" shank. A broken bit being flung at 24k RPM isn't fun to dodge - don't ask me how I know this. If nothing else you're gonna get more runout so things like box joints and dovetails will be a problem. Best to just bite the bullet and get a newer router with 1/2" and 1/4" collets. Having both is a very useful thing, btw.


That is an excellent summation on anyone's situation going forward, Phil - an a true acknowledgment of the need for a proper router plate/lift combination for all matters considered. I've been down this road and don't want to go back!


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Craftsman only came with 1/4" collets for the reasons Dan laid out. Even if you could find a Musclechuck that fit it, which I doubt because the shaft is probably too small, it still wouldn't have the power to drive a larger bit. Sears probably did that on purpose. The auto makers did the same thing with muscle cars. The muscle car era only lasted a few years in the mid and late 1960s until Detroit figured out that all that power was costing them too much in warranty claims so they started detuning the engines to produce less horse power.


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

I've got 5 old Craftsman routers, all 1/4" shank, all mounted on 1/2" plywood plates. All work very well. Didn't work so well before, until I played with the height adjustment, and that was all it took. x


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

what those guys said...


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## kp91 (Sep 10, 2004)

Option A --- What's the model number of the router? it may have been made with the option of 1/2 collet. (plus it will give an idea of what we're working with) 



Option B--- Mill the center area of the plate down to a reasonable thickness in the area the router sits.


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## David McWilliam (Feb 13, 2020)

Thanks for all the responses and great info guys (and so quick, too). I had no idea this was such an active forum! Nick, I did indeed remove the base plate before measuring, and there are no spacers, and thank you much for the warm welcome. 
No worries Dan - 1) apparently this model comes in 3 different variations: 1/2, 1, and 1 and 1/2 HP, and I can't for the life of me find any distinguishing marks on mine (other than 25,000 RPM). 2) my router being hella heavy, I was worried about sagging/warping with a thinner sheet (although, in hindsight, maybe I could have gone thinner. 3) Bummer. 4) I didn't know that the router design (other than its own collet) dictated how thick a collet could safely/comfortably be used.
Tom, I've actually been looking at that model, and, if I can scrape the money together, is the one I'm leaning towards. Luckily I've not yet drilled my plate, but I do have those Bosch insert rings in my Amazon cart - I was going to use a hole saw in my drill press for the bit opening (I'm told to liberally use/apply machine oil when drilling) and rout the step for the insert rings (my machinist friends at the Banjo Hangout - which is where I've been getting my advice until now - say it should work fine).
Heya John, the Bosch is 2 1/4 HP - is that skirting the line regarding enough power? It does include 1/2 and 1/4 inch collet chucks, and a fixed base in addition to a plunge base.
Phil, it does indeed come with only the 1/4 collet and, even without the base plate installed, does not extend far enough, thanks.
Herb, I'm gonna be scrounging and scraping as is to upgrade my router, so I'm not sure I can drop 70 bucks on a chuck, thanks for the heads-up though.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

"Heya John, the Bosch is 2 1/4 HP - is that skirting the line regarding enough power? It does include 1/2 and 1/4 inch collet chucks, and a fixed base in addition to a plunge base"

If you're thinking about the Bosch 1617 go for the full EVSPK version...that's both a fixed and a plunge base included. A lot less expensive to get the 1617EVSPK package rather than the 1617EVS and then buy the plunge base later as an accessory.
I have it and am very pleased with mine. Lots of power. 
Speaking of 1/4"and 1/2" shanked bits, I have a set of nice DIMAR 1/4" bits and frequently switch collets in order to use them. My preference is the 1/2" bits but for things like small radius roundovers, my 1/4" trim router is perfect for freehand edging.

DIMAR set...
https://www.kmstools.com/woodpeckers-12pc-1-4-carbide-router-bit-set-5361

That's in Cdn. $$$


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## sreilly (May 22, 2018)

Welcome into the fold David. 1st question and a good one. A router table will get used very often, most likely more often then hand held and changing it out for both uses gets very old very fast. Considering all I'd take the advice of buying a new router for the table alone and make it dedicated. My 1st new router in many years was bought for this very reason and I bought the Bosch 1617EVPKS because on rare occasions I _might_ want/need to change out the router and use the plunge base as well. I added a second later and now have a dedicated motor and digital power switch on the router table. My only 1/4" collet router is my trim router and all my bits other then those for it are 1/2" even though the 1617 comes with both 1/4" and 1/2" collets. 

I'm also a big fan of the JessEm lifts and have both the Mast-R-Lift II and Rout-R-Lift II which I believe is on sale currently, check Woodcraft.com.


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## Bstrom (Jan 2, 2020)

*Bosch Centering Cone - $7 on Amazon*

One little tool that could make a big difference on your handheld router(s) is a centering cone. I bought Bosch's to use on both routers and get the baseplate centered for use while referencing the baseplate against a guide, with edge guides, circle cutters, etc. It's $7 - a lot cheaper than inaccurate results:

https://www.amazon.com/Bosch-RA1151...t=&hvlocphy=9013458&hvtargid=pla-433123264002


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## roxanne562001 (Feb 5, 2012)

Welcome to the forum David my personal opinion is to upgrade to a router with a 1/2" capacity collet. It will give you allot more flexibility of what you can do. I have a 3hp plunge router that I use table mounted most of the time. I wouldn't want to be without.It is probably 15 years old now and has sure earned its keep Collet adaptors are available to go down in size but usually not up.
I have several old routers with 1/4 collets laying around that I use for many other things. You won't be sorry if you upgrade.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

That's about as good as first questions get. I suggest you pop for a commercial plate, pre drilled for the Bosch. It is much easier to fit a plate to your table than mill aluminum. I've seen them in the $30 price range.

And don't dismiss making your own router table instead of resurecting an old one. It requires a really flat chunk of plywood, 2x3 feet or so, a really flat 2x4 or 6 and a couple of clamps to hold the fence down. You can use your new router to cut an opening for the plate by using some scrap wood wrapped around the plate (as shown), then use a one inch long bit with a top mounted bearing (shown) to hog out the opening. 

IF you want to get fancy, glue on a second layer and make a smaller hole in it so you form a lip so the plate won't fall through. In that lip, you can put in some screws to adjust the plate height so it's level with the top. It's really pretty simple and a lot of folks here swear by their shop made tables. You could even find an old table in a thrift shop and use it, if the top is flat, or lay your shop made top on it after cutting an opening for the router. 

The last drawing is of how to drill a hole slightly oversized in the plate, using a flat head bolt, so the head is below the top of the plat. It allows you make fine adjustments to the bottom or plate position so it's perfectly centered using the positioning cone mentioned above. The other drawing suggests how to cut a rabbet for the plate to sit on. The graw arrow represents a height adjustment screw. Be sure you pre drill the hole for this screw so it doesn't split the edge of the layer it goes through

This is an excellent learning project, BTW. You will be doing this kind of technique again and again as you do more projects.


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## kp91 (Sep 10, 2004)

Keep your eye on the classifieds as well. There are a bunch of decent, reasonably priced routers on Craigslist within 50 miles of me, including one killer deal right now.....

Sell your craftsman for $25, trade up to something a little more versatile.


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## David McWilliam (Feb 13, 2020)

Thanks again everybody - I am indeed leaning toward the Bosch 1617EVSPK, but I'm having trouble finding info on how far the collet will adjust to extend past the base: can any of you who own this model please let me know (I need to be sure I'll have enough depth after the half-inch of aluminum plate)? Also, what is the term for this dimension/variable/feature (that is, the amount of depth that the end of the chuck will extend past the base plate)?
My father, who is plenty handy - but also plenty cheap (and stubborn) - insists that a new router is unnecessary. We've been butting heads over this: I point out that the limitations of our router (its small [1/4 inch] shank and its depth settings, as well as its single speed setting and low horsepower) don't allow me to have the bit protrude enough from the plate to safely and effectively rout my pieces to the required depth; his solution is to pull the shank most of the way from the chuck to gain the needed depth. I (emphatically) tell him that this is a bad idea - anyone have thoughts on this? Thanks


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

bad idea...


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## JFPNCM (Dec 13, 2009)

I would double down on Stick’s comment, it is an extremely bad idea as in disaster just waiting to happen.

A photo of your proposed mount might be helpful as well in case the lift is hanging up.


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## MYB506 (Dec 5, 2012)

There are 1/4" extensions because I have one that I bought years ago for a special purpose that I can't remember now. I only used it that one time and have never needed it since and really didn't like the idea of using it at the time. I think I got it at Rockler but just looked at their site and just got an error message on the search. I'm sure you can find one if you search enough but like others have said you are probably better off putting the cost of this towards a new router.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

" Also, what is the term for this dimension/variable/feature (that is, the amount of depth that the end of the chuck will extend past the base plate)?"
-David

'Overextended'? 
David, I'm not clear on why you need this extreme extension(?). I get the mounting plate using up depth part but are you talking about straight bits for routing to a certain depth?
That type of bit comes in varying lengths; if this is the issue will a longer bit resolve this?
I think the confusion is arising from the fact that there's really no depth difference in using a standard mounting plate and the normal baseplate which you're removing in order to mount the router to the new one. (For the 1/2" Aluminum you're losing an 1/8" at most)
You certainly don't want the collet protruding; It would at the very least damage your work piece if it makes contact!


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

David McWilliam said:


> Thanks again everybody - I am indeed leaning toward the Bosch 1617EVSPK, but I'm having trouble finding info on how far the collet will adjust to extend past the base: can any of you who own this model please let me know (I need to be sure I'll have enough depth after the half-inch of aluminum plate)? Also, what is the term for this dimension/variable/feature (that is, the amount of depth that the end of the chuck will extend past the base plate)?
> My father, who is plenty handy - but also plenty cheap (and stubborn) - insists that a new router is unnecessary. We've been butting heads over this: I point out that the limitations of our router (its small [1/4 inch] shank and its depth settings, as well as its single speed setting and low horsepower) don't allow me to have the bit protrude enough from the plate to safely and effectively rout my pieces to the required depth; his solution is to pull the shank most of the way from the chuck to gain the needed depth. I (emphatically) tell him that this is a bad idea - anyone have thoughts on this? Thanks


I just unboxed anew spare one I have and here is the inf you requested. The tightened collet extends 1/4" from the router base when the motor is down all the way and the nut is tightened.
This is with the phonlic base on the router,which mearsures 1/4" thick. I hope this helps.
Herb


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

I found that changing router bits on my tables were always a chore even with the offset wrenches, until I put muscle chucks on both tables. Now it is a pleasure.
Herb


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

Okay...as they say...a picture is worth a thousand words...

Send a picture of your setup...underneath, side, where a bit is when installed properly and router raised all the way up, etc...

We'll help you settle the debate with dear ole dad...

I'm still of the mind that you are no worse off than anybody else...except you have 1/8" less to raise bits...that should not be a problem...

Send some pics of the problem...it'll help us help you...maybe there's a problem there that shouldn't be...and maybe "it ain't broke, don't fix it til it is"... :smile:


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## Semipro (Mar 22, 2013)

David McWilliam said:


> Thanks again everybody - I am indeed leaning toward the Bosch 1617EVSPK, but I'm having trouble finding info on how far the collet will adjust to extend past the base: can any of you who own this model please let me know (I need to be sure I'll have enough depth after the half-inch of aluminum plate)? Also, what is the term for this dimension/variable/feature (that is, the amount of depth that the end of the chuck will extend past the base plate)?
> My father, who is plenty handy - but also plenty cheap (and stubborn) - insists that a new router is unnecessary. We've been butting heads over this: I point out that the limitations of our router (its small [1/4 inch] shank and its depth settings, as well as its single speed setting and low horsepower) don't allow me to have the bit protrude enough from the plate to safely and effectively rout my pieces to the required depth; his solution is to pull the shank most of the way from the chuck to gain the needed depth. I (emphatically) tell him that this is a bad idea - anyone have thoughts on this? Thanks


David 
You can get some good deals on refurbished products I buy them all the time I’ve never had trouble with the refurbished products
the Bosch you are looking at Is Readily Available at CPO outlets With plunge and fixed bases $188.00 Usually with free-shipping
This is just one of the places that sell refurbished products
My mistake it was a 2 1/4 horse (old age)
That-Router would do about anything you need to do includes Making raised panel doors 
If you are going commercial and I would step up to the bigger heavier-Router’s
My bigger routers are in tables 2 to dang heavy for old people to handle by hand


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

David McWilliam said:


> My father, who is plenty handy - but also plenty cheap (and stubborn) - insists that a new router is unnecessary. We've been butting heads over this: I point out that the limitations of our router (its small [1/4 inch] shank and its depth settings, as well as its single speed setting and low horsepower) don't allow me to have the bit protrude enough from the plate to safely and effectively rout my pieces to the required depth; his solution is to pull the shank most of the way from the chuck to gain the needed depth. I (emphatically) tell him that this is a bad idea - anyone have thoughts on this? Thanks


You are correct and he is wrong. I don't recommend the shaft of the bit be anything less than 90% of full insertion. Less than that and you risk damaging the collet and for Sears routers (most at least) there are no spares to be had. Without a working collet it's nothing but an oversize paper weight. Most of the posts we see about Sears routers is from newbies trying to find a replacement and the answer is always "sorry, there aren't any".


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## David McWilliam (Feb 13, 2020)

*Thanks*

Thank you Herb, the info does indeed help! Thanks so much everybody. I will be going with the Bosch 1617, now it's just a question of fixed base only vs. fixed/plunge combo - the combo is about 50 bucks more. How often does the plunge base get used (by those of you who have one)? 
I will gladly post pics of my new table every step of the way: so far, I've got a 12 x 8 x 1/2 inch plate of aluminum off EBAY (about 25 bucks); I'll be using a piece of 1/2 inch plywood with an 8x12 cutout in the middle, with the plywood spanning the rest of the distance between the struts in my table saw extension, and a small wooden lip running the perimeter of the cutout to hold the aluminum plate flush. I'll have to wait for the new router to arrive before I do most of the drilling in the aluminum plate (likely in my drill press), but I've got the Bosch 2610915125 Router Table Insert Set on the way. Can I just cut the inner circle from the aluminum with a hole saw, and use the router for the lip that the inserts push into (I've never routed/milled aluminum before)? Also, I'll likely be starting a new thread about the router table construction project, I'll post a link as soon as I do. Thanks again all,
David


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## David McWilliam (Feb 13, 2020)

Also, 2 more questions: 1) the Bosch table insert rings indicate that they fit in a 3-7/8 hole: can anyone corroborate this? Also, will my drill press and any decent 3-7/8 hole saw do (for the 1/2 inch aluminum), or am I needing something special for aluminum? My friends on the banjo hangout say just to make sure to have it (the cut) plenty lubricated while cutting, but I thought I'd repeat the question here, just to be sure. Thanks all,
David


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## Semipro (Mar 22, 2013)

David if you have both bases you can mount the fix to the table and leave it attached and use the plunge base with the same router for hand use
( multiple uses for the same router )


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

North America is the only place where fixed base routers are common according to what we are told by members from everywhere else. You can do anything with a plunge that a fixed base will do but the opposite is not true. The reason for plunge routers to be so common everywhere else may be partly a safety issue because when you finish routing you ease up on the downward pressure and the bit retracts out of the way. 

Regardless of that there are numerous jobs where you are better off to plunge, such as making mortises and routing out pockets. Routers can be used for drilling uniformly spaced holes with the right jig and that operation is done by plunging so you can get quite a bit of use from the plunge base, particularly as you get more adventurous with trying the various things a router can do.

The biggest issue with machining the aluminum is galling and having the aluminum stick to the teeth. When that happens it stops cutting and gets hot. Seems to me that kerosene is recommended as a lube in some aluminum machining operations. Maybe someone more versed in metal working can confirm that.


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## David McWilliam (Feb 13, 2020)

Good point John. Also, I just bought a (cheap Asian) 1/4 inch shank rabbeting bit with interchangeable bearing spacers, but then found the Freud on Amazon. Since I need the 1/2 inch shank now, is the Freud really that much better? What difference will a nice bit make over a cheap Asian one? Thanks


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

"How often does the plunge base get used (by those of you who have one)? "
_David
Never, if you don't have one, but you'll be constantly kicking yourself later if you don't buy the package deal. Been there and paid the premium.
It's really amazing what you can do with the plunge base.
Example; end grain cuttingboard...cutting the juice channel. Two ways to free hand basically. In both cases clamp a frame around the exterior of the board to act as a guide a) Drop the fixed base down at a slight angle and pray that you get the bit spot on where you want it or b) let the plunge base guide the router while you plunge wherever you want to start the channel. 'b' is almost foolproof, 'a' not so much... VoE 

https://www.amazon.com/Bosch-RA1166...=bosch+1617+plunge+base&qid=1581904988&sr=8-1
https://www.amazon.com/Bosch-1617EV...bosch+1617+plunge+base&qid=1581904988&sr=8-26

https://www.amazon.com/Bosch-Variab...=bosch+1617+plunge+base&qid=1581904988&sr=8-6


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Get the whole kit. You leave the fixed base in the table and just unclip the motor and clip it into the plunge base. There are many jigs that allow you to use your plunge base to flatten boards, make shallow bowls, cut mortises, grooves, dados using the plunge base. 

I've also suggested and recommend again that you pop for a commercial mounting plate rather than try to make your own. You'll get better precision, it will be pre drilled, will be somewhat thinner that what you have, and it will be setup with the insert rings, something that will take some considerable skill and care to get right on your aluminum plate. Check this predrilled Kreg plate: https://www.kregtool.com/store/c35/...ert-plate--predrilled-for-porter-cable-bosch/

There are some things that I just won't compromise on. Are you aware for example, of how to drill holes for the attachment bolts so that you have a small amount of play for centering, yet not protrude on the top of the plate. If you get this wrong, you may or may not be able to rescue it. Then there's cutting a shallow area for the inserts, and you have to get inserts and drill and tap the threads that hold those in place as well. If you have friends who push you to do it yourself, why not ask them to do it for you. Getting all that right seems pretty iffy to me.

One thing to consider is that you don't want to cut more than about 1/8th inch per pass, whether or not you're using a jig. The plunge base lets you preset the depths of each cut, so your depth of cut will be identical when, say, you're cutting multiple dados to hold shelves in a cabinet or bookcase. The Bosch plunge base also replaces the knobs with handles, which makes for better control and safety. If you cut too much per pass, you get heating and shortened bit life. 

It is hard to deal with costs of woodworking tools for a lot of us, but there is a minimum level of quality below which you get mediocre results and are tempted to compensate by taking risks. 

As to bits, some cheaper bits work just fine because you don't use them that often. But bits you use all the time, I'd stick with Freud. Easy to find, reliable good quality, and they can be sharpened (research how to do this, it's counterintuitive).

Drop a half inch grommet (not O ring) into the bottom of the half inch collet and bottom the bit shank on that. They're cheap and only about 1/8 thick. Works great for me.

Have you had a chance to watch some of the Marc Sommerfeld woodworking viceos yet? His techniques are elegantly simple. But please, wear a dust mask, for video making he goes without, but it's very bad to inhale that fine dust, and if you're using MDF, you will never get that stuff out of your lungs.


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## David McWilliam (Feb 13, 2020)

*Thanks*

Thanks Dan. Tom, I appreciate the heads-up, but I've already got the flat 1/2 inch aluminum plate in the mail, so I'm gonna give that a whirl (worse comes to worse I ruin it and I'm out 25 bucks, or, more likely, I've got a couple extra holes in it. I've also got the Bosch insert rings coming (they're about 7 bucks when you buy them separate), so I'm gonna do my darndest to cut out the inner ring with the hole saw, and rout the small step for the insert rings to press into. I was not aware, in fact, that I had "to drill holes for the attachment bolts so that you have a small amount of play for centering, yet not protrude on the top of the plate." Thanks for the heads-up. I'll revisit this once I've got the router set and I'm ready to start work on the insert/table. I definitely see where you're coming from, but 1) I've got more time than money, at the moment, and 2) I'm an inveterate DIYer: it's not just a matter of pride, nor of finances - it might be in my blood - but if it's at all possible to do it myself, I will. I also love learning a new skill, and, as they say, "necessity is the mother of invention."


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Please keep us in the loop on your progress, David. As you've probably figured out, several of the members are just as skilled with metal working as wood (not me!). 
We all want you to have a successful outcome with this project.

Good luck!


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

DesertRatTom said:


> I've also suggested and recommend again that you pop for a commercial mounting plate rather than try to make your own. You'll get better precision, it will be pre drilled, will be somewhat thinner that what you have, and it will be setup with the insert rings, something that will take some considerable skill and care to get right on your aluminum plate. Check this predrilled Kreg plate: https://www.kregtool.com/store/c35/...ert-plate--predrilled-for-porter-cable-bosch/
> 
> There are some things that I just won't compromise on. Are you aware for example, of how to drill holes for the attachment bolts so that you have a small amount of play for centering, yet not protrude on the top of the plate. If you get this wrong, you may or may not be able to rescue it. Then there's cutting a shallow area for the inserts, and you have to get inserts and drill and tap the threads that hold those in place as well. If you have friends who push you to do it yourself, why not ask them to do it for you. Getting all that right seems pretty iffy to me.


Tom woodworking skills and metal working skills aren't much different from each other, just a different knowledge base and learning how to use the tools. I made my last base out of some sheet plastic one of my kids left in my shop. It's every bit as good as any purchased one and I machined it to use the rings from a Grizzly plate that I had a different router mounted to. You need to have more faith in your skills.


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## PhilBa (Sep 25, 2014)

Hmmm, plunge vs fixed. I have a different point of view (and experience). I have a collection of fixed bases that never get used. My PC 7518 beast stays in the table and is mounted in a router lift. I never take it out. The fixed based collects dust. My DW 618 (mid sized, general hand held router) sits in it's plunge base, never in the fixed base. That base also collects dust. My DW 611 sits in my CNC router and never gets taken out. You guessed it, the fixed base collects dust.

The one place where I see fixed bases as being better is for ease of bit depth adjustment. Though it's a small advantage and is outweighed by the fact that you have to lay it down sideways (or have something with a hole for the bit so you can set it upright).

This isn't to say that there is no use for fixed bases - your experience may be different from mine. I tried to find the DW 611 in just a bare spindle package. They don't sell them. Even looked at spare parts and the cost was the same as the fixed base package. Had I looked a bit more when buying my PC7518, I would have found a spindle only package for a somewhat lower cost. And, the DW 618 - they don't sell it in a plunge only package. Grrrr....

By the way, there is one risk with plunge bases. For certain bits - pattern and dove tails spring to mind - you need to be careful to fully lock the router in the plunged position. If it accidentally pops up while routing you can ruin your work, guide, template, etc.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

PhilBa said:


> Hmmm, plunge vs fixed. I have a different point of view (and experience). I have a collection of fixed bases that never get used. My PC 7518 beast stays in the table and is mounted in a router lift. I never take it out. The fixed based collects dust. My DW 618 (mid sized, general hand held router) sits in it's plunge base, never in the fixed base. That base also collects dust. My DW 611 sits in my CNC router and never gets taken out. You guessed it, the fixed base collects dust.
> 
> The one place where I see fixed bases as being better is for ease of bit depth adjustment. Though it's a small advantage and is outweighed by the fact that you have to lay it down sideways (or have something with a hole for the bit so you can set it upright).
> 
> ...


routers I gots...

I like a fixed base for edge profiles, substitute joiner, dadoes, groves, box joints, dovetails, splines and the like...
for the plunge; mortise and inlays..
I've dedicated several routers for dedicated jobs, ie; splines, DTs, box, inlay, profiles, dado ttc... 
on any job requires more than one router as many as needed routers are set up that way and left set up till job completion.
the dearly beloved size pick up the rest of the slack...

in these two pics there are 17 routers... (11 Bosch, 2 Makita, 1 Milwaukee, 2 PC, 1 Ingersol Rand)
not shown 1 PC in the RT, 3 Bosch for the Leigh jigs....

.


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

When I was doing a lot of dovetails I had 2 fixed base routers set up and dedicated for those. I was raised on fix based and feel more confident with them, although I do have a couple of plunge based, I have several trim routers and 2 are plunge, but use the fixed based more often.
Herb


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## abjones (Feb 2, 2014)

Consider using 1" MDF for the table instead of 1/2" ply. The extra mass of the MDF will dampen vibration on large cuts such as panel raising. Also, 1/2" ply may warp or otherwise distort over time. Table routing requires an absolutely flat surface for acceptable results.

I laminated scrap formica on mine which provides low friction surface.


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## Traupmann (Jun 14, 2013)

The only recourse IMHO is a router lift and a router body if you are going to get serious about woodworking. 
However many use either a fixed base or plunge routers with large bases to drop into a plate. It adds a lot of time but saves money upfront 

As far as a Router Table, a thick sheet of Baltic Birch -Glue tow sheets of 1/2 or 3/4 together, and make the cutout for your base. It is a lot cheaper than the aluminum and just as sturdy for the relatively short distance a router table needs to be. Just scan the numerous router tables for sale by the numerous woodworker shops.


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## GMA (Feb 12, 2020)

My Crafstman routet have two collets 1/4 and 1/2, I'm not shure is a 2 1/2 HP, also have and old B&D 1/4, I try to find and adapter bit a good friend tell me is really dangerous if exist 1/4 to 1/2, take care your self. Security first.


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## sonnywiehe (Mar 4, 2011)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> The muscle car era only lasted a few years in the mid and late 1960s until Detroit figured out that all that power was costing them too much in warranty claims so they started detuning the engines to produce less horse power.


That is an interesting observation on the demise of the muscle car era. I always intuitively pinned the abrupt move toward less horsepower on the '73-'74 Arab oil embargo. But this makes good business sense. You never know what kind of insight you're going to glean from this forum outside of routing.


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## tulowd (Jan 24, 2019)

sonnywiehe said:


> That is an interesting observation on the demise of the muscle car era. I always intuitively pinned the abrupt move toward less horsepower on the '73-'74 Arab oil embargo. But this makes good business sense. You never know what kind of insight you're going to glean from this forum outside of routing.



I respectfully disagree with any suggestion that the muscle car era died off due to reliability or manufacturing defect/warranty situations.

It is a well known fact in automotive circles that between the insurance companies boycotting/refusing to offer high horsepower coverage, the looming emissions (aka catalytic converters), fuel economy requirements and getting rid of leaded fuel (higher octane and valve seat protection), the stage was already set. The acknowledged performance peak of the muscle car era was 1970, where the most powerful and potent cars were built. The 1970 SS 454 Chevelle, considered THE ultimate muscle car, produced 460 rated hp, but is known to have eclipsed 500. Same sort of metrics for any other 1970 model. In 1971 power started going down significantly and continued until we were force fed 160 or 180 hp Corvettes by 1976. The oil embargo and spiking fuel prices killed off the used muscle car market, making a Hemi Cuda or similar unicorn an absolute bargain to purchase by 1973/74 and beyond.

If you look at the ancillary drivetrain components of that era, they are to some extent still revered today - 12 bolt GM and Ford 9"rear ends, Muncie M21/M22, Borg Warner Super T10, 727, C6, TH400 transmssions; they all supported the big power available and are still used in high power drag racing cars today. 

Keep in mind too, that tire technology was barely past the wooden spoke rubber wrap at that point - bias plys slowly moving to radials - a wide tire was 6" tread lol. No traction means no real shock loads or stress on the drivetrains, so only smoke shows and relatively slow 0-60 and quarter mile times when looking at the power to weight ratios.

The resurgence of the 5.0 Mustang in 1982 sparked the next muscle car revolution, and there were instances of broken T5 transmissions and rear ends in the beginning. Once Ford introduced EFI to the Foxbody in 1987 (86 was a weak immitation) they also strengthened the transmissions and went to the 8.8 rear end. Yes some broke and were replaced under warranty, but this did not deter sales or the model continuation until 2004. In fact, the same rear end was still used in the 2005-2013 Mustangs and Shelby GT500s, which made 662hp and came with large sticky tires and the new TR6060 Viper based transmissions. Very little warranty issues, even with big power and sticky rubber.

Given the context of this, we live in a magical time today. Every brand builds a muscle car with 650+ hp; even the standard rental car V8s are to be had with 460 + hp from each of the big 3. Our buddy just took delivery of his 2020 GT500......with a 7 speed sequential and 760 hp.....stock. Mind blowing. Get your wallets and lines of credit out ladies and gents........this is the peak of internal combustion technology........electric may be faster but it does not have the ICB heart pounding and sensory overload.


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## G00ber43 (Sep 13, 2018)

At some time in the past Sears router motors were made by Bosch. I have one, its a 1617 made in RED plastic (don't know if its a soft start or what) and fits the Bosch fixed base for the 1617 Bosch router. 1/4 and 1/2 inch Bosch collets work fine. I think I found the motor on Ebay. I needed another motor to leave in my table setup. I bought an extra Bosch fixed base for same reason.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

G00ber43 said:


> At some time in the past Sears router motors were made by Bosch. I have one, its a 1617 made in RED plastic (don't know if its a soft start or what) and fits the Bosch fixed base for the 1617 Bosch router. 1/4 and 1/2 inch Bosch collets work fine. I think I found the motor on Ebay. I needed another motor to leave in my table setup. I bought an extra Bosch fixed base for same reason.


Do you know which model and what year those were made Tom? Most Sears routers were 315. models which were made by Ryobi (One World Technologies, the parent company). Later I saw some with 320. prefixes. I can't remember which company that was but I'm fairly sure it wasn't Bosch.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

cherryville chuck said:


> do you know which model and what year those were made tom? Most sears routers were 315. Models which were made by ryobi (one world technologies, the parent company). Later i saw some with 320. Prefixes. I can't remember which company that was but i'm fairly sure it wasn't bosch.


135.xxxx


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## sonnywiehe (Mar 4, 2011)

*Wax on*



David McWilliam said:


> I've also got the Bosch insert rings coming (they're about 7 bucks when you buy them separate), so I'm gonna do my darndest to cut out the inner ring with the hole saw, and rout the small step for the insert rings to press into.


You will have no problem. Slow speed and fill the hole saw teeth with cutting wax. If it starts to get real warm, cool the bit and fill with more wax. Repeat as necessary.


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## G00ber43 (Sep 13, 2018)

See attached:
Bottom left of nameplate says Sear Roebuck.
Shown mounted in my Bosch fixed base for 1617 router


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## David McWilliam (Feb 13, 2020)

Thanks everyone. Sonny, do I need cutting wax in addition to 3-in-1?


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

David McWilliam said:


> Thanks everyone. Sonny, do I need cutting wax in addition to 3-in-1?


I use WD-40 and the teeth don't gum up.
Just saying,
Herb


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## David McWilliam (Feb 13, 2020)

Thanks Herb. Anyone else care to chime in? Being perpetually low on funds, I'd prefer not to spend more than necessary on lube - but I also don't want to ruin the hole saw or make a poor cut: the 3-in-1 is about 6 bucks, the "Cut Lube Wax Jewelers Cutting Lubricant for Saw Blades" is just over 10, and the waxes I'm seeing on Amazon are over 15. Since I don't expect much metalworking in my future, I think most of the excess wax will probably sit in my garage forever. I'll happily throw down on the wax if it'll give me a better cut/save my hole saw/etc. What say you? Thanks,
David


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Candle wax might work too. Try a birthday cake candle. Just stop and check regularly if there is any aluminum sticking to your cutter.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

I _always_ have a candle stub in my tool pouch. 
The other inexpensive wax is the paraffin wax used for canning...
https://www.farmandhomesupply.com/gulf-wax-1-lb-household-paraffin-wax-24-1-paraffin.html


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## Bradscopegems (Mar 3, 2020)

I count myself as a beginner, but I have over the years bought three types of router and would recommend the DeWalt 26200 with the fixed base. (Just make sure you get a hex nut on the collet, as explained in a thread I started a few days ago). The reason I like the DeWalt is that the height adjustment (by turning a large collar on the fixed base) is really precise and locks firmly and is easily accessible when the router is under a table. Also there is a speed control. I seem to remember that the fixed base came with a plastic disk which you can unscrew and discard if you are mounting under a table, which will give you some extra vertical travel on the bit. But I agree with Herb Stoop's post that a 1/2 inch mounting plate is unnecessarily thick and will restrict your travel with any router. I seem to remember that the fixed base came with a plastic disk which you can unscrew and discard if you are mounting under a table.
When I am allowed, I will post a photo of my table with the DeWalt in place.


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

Bradscopegems said:


> I count myself as a beginner, but I have over the years bought three types of router and would recommend the DeWalt 26200 with the fixed base. (Just make sure you get a hex nut on the collet, as explained in a thread I started a few days ago). The reason I like the DeWalt is that the height adjustment (by turning a large collar on the fixed base) is really precise and locks firmly and is easily accessible when the router is under a table. Also there is a speed control. I seem to remember that the fixed base came with a plastic disk which you can unscrew and discard if you are mounting under a table, which will give you some extra vertical travel on the bit. But I agree with Herb Stoop's post that a 1/2 inch mounting plate is unnecessarily thick and will restrict your travel with any router. I seem to remember that the fixed base came with a plastic disk which you can unscrew and discard if you are mounting under a table.
> When I am allowed, I will post a photo of my table with the DeWalt in place.


If you save your pictures to your computer, you can open them under "Manage Attachment" below, or click and drag them into the message in the Drag and Drop below.
Herb


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

DaninVan said:


> I _always_ have a candle stub in my tool pouch.
> The other inexpensive wax is the paraffin wax used for canning...
> https://www.farmandhomesupply.com/gulf-wax-1-lb-household-paraffin-wax-24-1-paraffin.html


A bar of soap works too. Back in the day we carried a small used bar in our apron for sinking screws into oak, clean as a whistle.
Herb


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

"...clean as a whistle."

Herb


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

DaninVan said:


> *I always have a candle stub in my tool pouch. *
> The other inexpensive wax is the paraffin wax used for canning...
> https://www.farmandhomesupply.com/gulf-wax-1-lb-household-paraffin-wax-24-1-paraffin.html


careful w/ the ''candle wax''....
note the candle wax section in the PDF...

.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

David McWilliam said:


> Thanks Herb. Anyone else care to chime in? Being perpetually low on funds, I'd prefer not to spend more than necessary on lube - but I also don't want to ruin the hole saw or make a poor cut: the 3-in-1 is about 6 bucks, the "Cut Lube Wax Jewelers Cutting Lubricant for Saw Blades" is just over 10, and the waxes I'm seeing on Amazon are over 15. Since I don't expect much metalworking in my future, I think most of the excess wax will probably sit in my garage forever. I'll happily throw down on the wax if it'll give me a better cut/save my hole saw/etc. What say you? Thanks,
> David


I like the paste wax...
multipurpose too...

.


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