# Kitchen Table Top glue up help.



## 96BelisleAs (Aug 13, 2013)

I was looking around and saw a few pictures of table tops I liked and wanted to try them out. I might incorporate them into counter tops when I redo my kitchen if I like the results enough. Being I haven 't relied on strictly glue before is using just glue alright for doing something like this or should I toss in screws with each board or use dowels? Or would glue and clamping be enough (I'd be using Titebond III). I only have four 48" Bessey Clamps though. I do have pipe clamps but no pipes for them if its an issue. 

Also would I be better of doing the entire top at once, or in three separate sections then sending each section through my planer then connecting the three sections after going through my planer? Or assemble in one big piece then sand entire thing?

First picture is the table base I will be using. (Not a fan of the 2x4 being flat in center though.) The second photo is the table top I will be using. Basically 28 2x4's glued together.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Hey, Eric; pipes for the pipe clamps would be the best place to start. You'll need 'em!
-Glue alone, if done properly should be more than just OK.
-Better would be splines in the butt joints; you wouldn't need to run the slots right to the ends if you didn't want to see the splines when it's finished.
-Doing it in sections or all at once is really your choice, but as you suggested, being able to run the glued components through the planer before the final glue up might be really helpful.
It's going to reduce the amount of time spent surfacing the finished assembly substantially!

You'll probably get as many opinions as there are active members, but in the end it'll be your choices and really that's the fun of woodworking. None of the choices you proposed are wrong or potentially disastrous.
But in the end, yeh, you need the pipe clamps...or a huge work bench which would allow you to use wedges and cauls to clamp the perimeter.
(You might find Titebond II easier to use than the III...but again, there's no right or wrong on that.)


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## 96BelisleAs (Aug 13, 2013)

Would 4 48" clamps not be enough? My work table is 4x8 so it's large enough. So far I've only used titebond 3 on my projects so not familiar with the differences. I was thinking of cutting the outer most border 2x4s at 45 and capping the end of all of the 2x4s with a 2x4 running perpendicular to them. Wast sure if it would ruin the look I was going for.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

5 by my reckonin' at a bare minimum...
3 on top...
2 to the bottom side equally spaced apart and alternated...

7 would be way better...
4 top...
3 bottom...


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## MT Stringer (Aug 15, 2012)

What is the final dimension of the table top?
And the 2x4's will be glued on edge, flat side to flat side. Right?

Just thinking out loud...Can you pick up 28 2x4's? That is going to be heavy.

The table top I built was almost too heavy for two men. It was 1 1/2 inch hard maple..38x67 inches.

Are you going to mill the 2x4's so they all have flat sides and edges?

I have seen tops built in sections to make the work easier. You have to work fast because the glue will start to set up. Maybe four sections of 7 each, then glue the sections together.

I see a lot of sanding in your future. :surprise::grin::grin::grin: (experience talking).

I attached the pics of the maple top I built for a lady. She provided the dimensions so it would fit her frame. All I had to do was build it. Whew!

This is when I realized I needed a bigger table saw. :surprise:

The last pic was sent to me after they got the table set up in their dining room. She loves it.

Hope this helps.
Mike


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

splining will help tremendously w/ flush alignment...
and I MEAN TREMENDOUSLY....

Router Forums - View Single Post - Maple and Walnut


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## MT Stringer (Aug 15, 2012)

How to make a wooden counter top.


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## 96BelisleAs (Aug 13, 2013)

Stick486 said:


> 5 by my reckonin' at a bare minimum...
> 3 on top...
> 2 to the bottom side equally spaced apart and alternated...
> 
> ...


Well I only have 4 to work with so looks like I might need to go buy some pipes to go with my pipe clamps. I believe I have 4-6 pipe clamps.




MT Stringer said:


> What is the final dimension of the table top?
> And the 2x4's will be glued on edge, flat side to flat side. Right?
> 
> Just thinking out loud...Can you pick up 28 2x4's? That is going to be heavy.
> ...


The 2x4s are going to be glued together so that the 3.5" side is butted against each other. The glue time did worry me a bit. I do own a 20" planer so I was thinking if I had to I could do three sections then attach them together. As for the table. I haven't exactly figured out the dimensions yet. Roughly 42" wide and 6.5-7' long. More than likely 6.5'. I've already built 3 decent sized picnic tables and sanded all of them multiple times so I am not worried about sanding. Biggest worries are making sure the pieces stay together and don't come apart. I was tempted to glue two pieces clamp them, then put in some deck screws and repeat with each 2x4 added but wasn't sure if it was necessary.

Oh, and I do realize its going to be very heavy. Could I pick up 30 2x4's. Yes. Would it be safe or easy. No. I do have a very large work table though luckily. I retrofitted my old pool table with casters and a plywood insert table top.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Eric, the individual glue faces are basically 6' x 3.5"...that's a lot of glued surface. If you own a 20" planer you're in way better shape than most of us *drool*!
The two critical factors are as you already noted, the quality of the two planed glue faces, and adequate glue (not starved).
Personally, I'd do the spline thing. Bomb proof. :0 
Can I borrow your planer...


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## 96BelisleAs (Aug 13, 2013)

DaninVan said:


> Eric, the individual glue faces are basically 6' x 3.5"...that's a lot of glued surface. If you own a 20" planer you're in way better shape than most of us *drool*!
> The two critical factors are as you already noted, the quality of the two planed glue faces, and adequate glue (not starved).
> Personally, I'd do the spline thing. Bomb proof. :0
> Can I borrow your planer...


I wish some of you guys were closer so you could teach me to use all of these tools I have. I learn as I go I guess. I haven't used my planer once (other than to test it) since I got it. It sparks on start up and I wanted to have the motor looked at so I didn't burn out a $400-$500 motor. No one in my area does it anymore. For this table though I'll use it. 

I wish some of you did live close to me. You'd be more than welcome to use my tools. I have a lot of tools but still missing much of the knowledge to use them all properly. 

As for splining. Each 2x4 is only 1.5" wide. Wouldn't cutting into each side on every 2x4 to insert a spline weaken the wood? Wouldn't inserting several deck screws into each board have the same result? 

I am sure it is ridiculous but I figured I could just take 10 boards or so. Glue each one and screw each additional board I add to the 10 board section clamping as I go before screwing each new board. After I got to 10, running it through the planer. Then flipping it over and planing down the other side as well. After I do each section attaching the three sections together with wood glue and then clamping. 

If needed for structural integrity (after clamping several boards together) drilling through them and inserting/gluing wooden dowels? I know what splines are but I don't see how that is going to really help anymore then using dowels or deck screws to keep alignment. You guys know more than me though is why I ask.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Ahhh...I'm beginning to see what you're doing! I have the same project awaiting, bench tops, 27" deep by specific lengths. I'll just start with 10' lengths and cut the bench tops to length after it's all assembled.
I'm using 2x6 D. Fir, which I'll rip in half then dry assemble, drill through completely using a ship's auger and reassemble with glue, redi-rod and washers/nuts.
Plane flat with the router sled gizmo.

Please don't run that planer until you fix the sparking! (Or give it to me...  )


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

I forgot the screw question, Personally? No.
You could make 3/4" x 3/4" strips and recess them into 3/8"deep x3/4" wide channels cut into each wide face. That'd prevent the individual boards from separating in the vertical plane. I'd still avoid the screws; just don't like 'em in this application...but that's just me.
The dowels might work OK.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

96BelisleAs said:


> 1... I wish some of you guys were closer so you could teach me to use all of these tools I have. I learn as I go I guess.
> 2... I haven't used my planer once (other than to test it) since I got it. It sparks on start up and I wanted to have the motor looked at so I didn't burn out a $400-$500 motor. No one in my area does it anymore. For this table though I'll use it.
> 3... I have a lot of tools but still missing much of the knowledge to use them all properly.
> 4... As for splining. Each 2x4 is only 1.5" wide. Wouldn't cutting into each side on every 2x4 *to insert a spline weaken the wood*? Wouldn't inserting several deck screws into each board have the same result?
> ...


1... so where do you live...
2... Start a thread on your planer...
one on how to and another on the sparking...
3... pick a tool.. start a thread...
4... no..
deck screws.. possible splitting... then what???
5... dress the edges on your 2x's till the radii are gone and all are the same width..
slot for your splines always from the same face.. suggest top..
you get strength and if the splines are all placed the same you will get a neat automatic flush fitting... one 2x to the next..
6... now for glue open time... you best have help if you think you can lay up ten 2x's in five minuets or so...
maybe in groups of 3 or 4 and put those groups together after the glue dries and so on...
slow set glue would be to your advantage..
7... structural integrity!!! you have no idea how you will have as is...
dowels would not be the way to go because of wood movement... over time the dowels will only be taking up space...
use all thread instead if you still feel the need to go over board...
8... all of us were where you are at one time...
patience..
ask questions.. preferably before you do something...
and remember ... there are no dumb questions...

dumb is telling her she is too wide to fall in w/ the seat up...

http://www.freudtools.com/index.php/products/product/61-102

.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

DaninVan said:


> I forgot the screw question, Personally? No.
> You could make 3/4" x 3/4" strips and recess them into 3/8"deep x3/4" wide channels cut into each wide face. That'd prevent the individual boards from separating in the vertical plane. I'd still avoid the screws; just don't like 'em in this application...but that's just me.
> The dowels might work OK.


agreed...


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## 96BelisleAs (Aug 13, 2013)

Stick486 said:


> 1... so where do you live...
> 2... Start a thread on your planer...
> one on how to and another on the sparking...
> 3... pick a tool.. start a thread...
> ...


1: Wellsville, New York.

2. I did have a thread asking about it, I believe the guesses were capacitor or brushes going bad. I do know one person who works on stuff like this but its the sort of person who "knows" what they are doing, but not really. Unfortunately the one guy people referred me to (who's actually two houses away from me) had a stroke and no longer does motors anymore. I found places in Buffalo (4 hours total away) but after factoring in gas, time and labor/parts I might as well buy a new motor. 

3. Much easier to learn how to correctly use tools and set them up in person over getting instructions online. I don't mind asking stupid questions but try to limit on how often I create new threads asking them. 

4. Not sure how deck screws would cause cracking. I haven't had the issue on any of the tables I built pre-drilling each hole. Of course overtime who knows. It would just an idea, apparently a bad one at that. I found a good deal online for a bunch of 25lb #10 2.5/3/3.5" star deck screws so figured I'd put them to use where ever I could. 

5. I was sort of dreading dusting off the joiner and getting it dialed in correctly. I am slightly intimidated by it for some reason. However it looks like I am going to have to tinker with it to plane down one side of the 4" side of the 2x4.. I planned on leaving the top and bottom edges on and just planing the rounded tops/bottoms down after I attack several 2x4s. I bought the slightly better 2x4s so hopefully they are a bit more straight. Of course now that I type that, wouldn;t it mean I have to have all of the grains going in the same direction in order for them to plane correctly? 

Splines: A lot of what I have been reading says I really don't need anything for laminating the boards together since there is so much board surface for the glue? 
6. I am seeing how anything more than 4 boards at a time might be an issue. At least with fewer boards I won't need to buy long pipe for the pipe clamps. Something I am starting to learn is I never have enough clamps. 

7. I am not really understanding how multiple dowel holes drilled into several 2x4s perpendicular to the joint wouldn't work to hold the surface flat unless the holes was larger than the dowel and there was space there for it to move. To me a dowel seems like the same thing as a spline but a spline runs with the joint. Isn't a dowel just a circular spline that runs through your entire piece's width? I'll have to do more research tomorrow when I get time of their differences and why a dowel won't work. 

8. I am not going to lie. I was hoping I could just slap a bunch of 2x4s together then plan them down and call them a table top. Looks like that was wishful thinking. I'll have a better idea how bad the curve is on all the lumber when I dry fit them together tomorrow. I have a few good attributes, patience wasn't one of them. Being as meticulous and persistent as I am but lacking patience isn't easy.

" dumb is telling her she is too wide to fall in w/ the seat up..."
I have yet to master the art of sleeping with one eye open so its safe to say that is one phrase I won't dare utter. :no:


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

#5- It'll be a lot easier to work with if you just joint one edge of each piece, then run them all though the tablesaw to get them all to the same width, losing the other radiused edge in the process.
You might also consider knocking the width back a bit from 3 1/2"(?). That's just a massive top! I'm thinking something like the WWII carrier wooden landing decks... 

#4- fooling around with screws or dowels while you're trying to get a series of long boards all aligned and glued, in a very short period of time, seems like an unnecessary extra burden, Eric.

Anything you can do to reduce the hand planing and sanding after assembly will be a bonus.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

96BelisleAs said:


> 1: Wellsville, New York.
> 
> 2. I did have a thread asking about it, I believe the guesses were capacitor or brushes going bad. I do know one person who works on stuff like this but its the sort of person who "knows" what they are doing, but not really. Unfortunately the one guy people referred me to (who's actually two houses away from me) had a stroke and no longer does motors anymore. I found places in Buffalo (4 hours total away) but after factoring in gas, time and labor/parts I might as well buy a new motor.
> 
> ...


1... that leave me out...

2... the motor.. see the PDF's...

3... maybe easier but for some things it can be done...

4... it's their cone shaped head that causes the issues after they are tighten, pilot drilled or not...

5... it's the planer that's the tool of choice here...
intimidation is directly linked to your confidence or the lack there of...
over time you will succeed...

6... Splines.. what you are getting is the VOE from spline users.... decades worth...

7... that doweling accuracy is one tough cookie to achieve.. 
I thought R. Bruce Hoadley put this one to bed 30 years ago in Fine Woodworking...
As he says, "If good dowel joints aren’t the oldest joints ever made, loose ones must be."
Router Forums - View Single Post - Doesn't make sense to me
Over time, with shrinkage and contraction, if the glue and pieces of the joint do not have the same factors, the joint will fail from separation..
so... have you ever seen a doweled piece of furniture that didn't loosen up...

8... all that you lean here is/are confidence builders...
this stuff you can take to the next project...
being overly meticulous can eat you up and cause untold stress which will dampen your spirits and resolve..
being persistent is the foundation to/of patience..
being anallitic is my job.. I've earned the right..

think lighter..


.


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## MT Stringer (Aug 15, 2012)

Question...does the table top really have to be 3 1/2 inches thick?

Reading through your replies I was thinking surely there is a place somewhere near you that rebuilds starters and motors that could check out your motor. It is 220v, right?

Screws? Hmmm...I was thinking you could glue up a few of the boards as you had mentioned, maybe ten. Then glue one on each side, use your clamps and some pocket screws to act as mini clamps. The shoulders on those screws make for one heck of a screw. Glue and screw two to the pile, wait about an hour or so and then *remove *the screws. Rinse and repeat. :grin:

Screws and nails are really just mini clamps to hold the material in place until the glue dries. Note that I had a hard time getting my head to accept that fact.

Another thought. You might find it difficult to plane everything the the same thickness but you should be able to get two or three chunks of 2x's pretty close, and then sandalot! :surprise:


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## 96BelisleAs (Aug 13, 2013)

Its not the planer that intimidates me nor do I really lack confidence. Its the jointer itself. After dusting it off and using it today I remembered why. I got it all set up and ran some short stock through and got good results after adjusting it. My main issue is the push pads. The Grizzly ones that came with the jointer are terrible and slip and slide all over the place and made it tough to get a grip on the piece I am afraid of slipping and getting injured more than anything, they are that bad. There is nothing like pushing a board with your hands an inch and a half away from spinning blades and having the push blocks slip repeatedly. 

MT/Dan: Go big or go home right? Back when things were made with more care and attention to detail. Honestly the table top doesn't have to be 3.5 but I like the look of a thicker table top. After trimming/planing down each side I plan on possibly losing 1/4-1/2 of thickness.

Stick/Dan: The dowels I didn't see as an aligning issue. How I was looking at doing it was laying several boards on a table and gluing them together and clamping them. After they are clamped and glued, then drilling a hole and tapping in the dowel. The boards would already be aligned and the dowel would be used to help aid the glue in keeping that alignment. After I do that and everything is set and dried running the entire piece through the planer and hitting it with the sander afterwards. 

As for loose dowel joints (in my project at least) why would the joints ever become loose? In theory with such a large glue area I could just glue them and I should never have an issue. The glue area of each board is roughly 3.5 inches x7 feet for each side of board. That's a heck of a lot of surface to glue to. The boards should fail before the glue ever does. I've never seen laminated boards over 3 inches thick come apart with dowels that is for sure. It has more to do with the fact I have never actually seen a glued up table that thick. Nor do I own much or been around much solid wood furniture which is going to change sooner rather than later. I have a couple pieces passed down to me and they are failing in places. Mainly a dresser where the table top seams are starting to come apart.I can't tell if they are doweled, biscuited, or just glued. Also the dovetails failed in the drawers. 

Out of all the videos I watched of people making butcher block table tops which this essentially is but without different lengths boards. Not once did I see them use anything but glue. Well I think I am going to dry fit them together and see how much jointing and planing I have in my future I hope I lucked out and picked out at least a few good boards that aren't bowed or twisted. Regardless of my final decision on how I decide to do it I am sure as long as I prepare the boards right and glue it correctly it will come out better than expected.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

I'm in the middle of a project right now, but perhaps someone else can take a few minutes to explain how to joint long boards using your tablesaw?
Might solve a lot of your issues. 





joinery - Methods of jointing without a jointer - Woodworking Stack Exchange


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## MT Stringer (Aug 15, 2012)

I have a pair of these paddles. They work pretty well except for melamine and other smooth surfaces when I use them on the table saw. I also use them for the jointer...a 6 inch Jet jointer!
https://www.google.com/shopping/pro...N6lxTY4VXBwb0Wt2nQ61twsHuDetuLlqC0RoChQbw_wcB


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

find yourself a set of grippers or make your own...
make yourself all kinds of push...

.


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## vindaloo (May 30, 2009)

96BelisleAs said:


> ...........The second photo is the table top I will be using. Basically 28 2x4's glued together.


That looks more like 28 of 2"x1" timbers making the top 1 3/4" thick by about 24" deep. Think that's more like a counter top dimensions.


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## 96BelisleAs (Aug 13, 2013)

MT Stringer said:


> I have a pair of these paddles. They work pretty well except for melamine and other smooth surfaces when I use them on the table saw. I also use them for the jointer...a 6 inch Jet jointer!
> https://www.google.com/shopping/pro...N6lxTY4VXBwb0Wt2nQ61twsHuDetuLlqC0RoChQbw_wcB


Thanks. I'll look into them. 



Stick486 said:


> find yourself a set of grippers or make your own...
> make yourself all kinds of push...
> 
> .


Not sure I'll be making my own dripping blocks but I'll look into the files tomorrow and see if any of the designs change my mind over store bought ones. 



vindaloo said:


> That looks more like 28 of 2"x1" timbers making the top 1 3/4" thick by about 24" deep. Think that's more like a counter top dimensions.


They are in fact 2x4's the pictures are from a show and has there is a partial video on youtube of them beginning to make it. Its not a counter top but in fact a dining room table.


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## vindaloo (May 30, 2009)

96BelisleAs said:


> ..............They are in fact 2x4's the pictures are from a show and has there is a partial video on youtube of them beginning to make it. Its not a counter top but in fact a dining room table.


In that case, 3 3/4" thick table is REALLY thick. :surprise:


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

when you pick out your 2x's study the end grain...


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## 96BelisleAs (Aug 13, 2013)

vindaloo said:


> In that case, 3 3/4" thick table is REALLY thick. :surprise:


Its going to be a beast. in the end its more like 3"-3 1/4" thick. If I were using hardwood I'd probably never be able to move the table it would be so darn heavy. 



Stick486 said:


> when you pick out your 2x's study the end grain...


There was only so many to choose from when I was picking lumber at Lowe's. I took over half of the lumber they had of the type I got. Another guy cleared them out just before I got to pick through. I haven't memorized all the terminology for cut lumber but I am familiar with it already. 

The time before last I got lumber a guy (who wasn't even buying lumber) made a remark to me about how its frowned upon to pick through lumber so I try to be as quick as I can now. However every single time I have been there I see people doing it. One guy even brought in a level to use as a straight edge. 

I lined up about 15 boards that were the best (no twisting). Took the first 5 and ran them through my table saw to take off a blade width of the rounded edges. Clamped them together vertically to see how flush they all are. Which is really good. (I realize now I need to invest in a hand planer). Only minor issue is in a couple spots there is a small gap where I can see about 1/32" of day light from imperfections in the boards (knots). They run a couple inches long if that. After glue up can I just use filler later for the tiny gaps? 

(I am going without and splines/dowels/ect.) I want to see how strong the joint is with just the glue up. I think it will suffice. If not I have a lesson learned and a new work bench. 

Either way. I am headed out later to get some 2" glue rollers and some pipes for the pipe clamps. I want to glue then clamp them vertically. After they harden I am going to use that one flat edge I created and run it through a few passes on the planer to clean the other side up. In theory it should work. Although theories are only as good as the people who are making them so we'll see.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Eric; keep your eyes open for big renos or new homes going up. The contractor will not be buying his lumber from Lowes or HD>
When the lumber deliveries show up, the drivers will often post a sign saying who's supplying the lumber; take note. Those are the places to visit if you're looking for better grades of common lumber.
Ask for #1... KD (*K*iln *D*ried) if you can find it.
The thing about taking the 3 1/2" width down is that gets rid of any edge damage or wain (bark) on that particular piece. Big issue with SPF (Spruce/Pine/Fir) species.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

96BelisleAs said:


> 1... Its going to be a beast. in the end its more like 3"-3 1/4" thick. If I were using hardwood I'd probably never be able to move the table it would be so darn heavy.
> 
> 2.There was only so many to choose from when I was picking lumber at Lowe's. I took over half of the lumber they had of the type I got. Another guy cleared them out just before I got to pick through. I haven't memorized all the terminology for cut lumber but I am familiar with it already.
> 
> ...


1... spruce... Average Dried Weight: 33 lbs/ft3 (525 kg/m3)
that puts the top in the realm of 200#'s
oak... is all of 60#'s or so heavier than pine for the same sized top...

2.. so have them break open a new bunk..

3.. horse hockey...
pick by grain orientation as laid out earlier...

4... very very strong till that much mass begins to move because of grain layup, MC and stress changes... 
are you acclimating the wood before assembly...

5... wishing you a full success.....


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## 96BelisleAs (Aug 13, 2013)

DaninVan said:


> Eric; keep your eyes open for big renos or new homes going up. The contractor will not be buying his lumber from Lowes or HD>
> When the lumber deliveries show up, the drivers will often post a sign saying who's supplying the lumber; take note. Those are the places to visit if you're looking for better grades of common lumber.
> Ask for #1... KD (*K*iln *D*ried) if you can find it.
> The thing about taking the 3 1/2" width down is that gets rid of any edge damage or wain (bark) on that particular piece. Big issue with SPF (Spruce/Pine/Fir) species.


None of the wood I bought had chewed up edges or bark, even the rejected twisted pieces. I believe it was called s4s. It was $3.13 a board. I got around 35% OFF so in the end it was even cheaper. It was much better than the other stuff I was picking through before to build picnic tables out of. 

Not much building goes on in my area, stuff gets torn down and rarely rebuilt. I'll keep a look out. I tried reaching out to a lumber place about an hour away that did kiln dried stuff but they never got back to me. 



Stick486 said:


> 1... spruce... Average Dried Weight: 33 lbs/ft3 (525 kg/m3)
> that puts the top in the realm of 200#'s
> oak... is all of 60#'s or so heavier than pine for the same sized top...
> 
> ...


The one I was picking through was the only one I saw. I am sure they had stuff out back I didn't think to ask. I have to get over feeling bad for being annoying asking for things like that I guess. I feel bad enough cherry picking through lumber. Other than dry fitting stuff and letting it sit a couple days after I cut it not really. I didn't want to have to wait several weeks. 

I planned on staining it and putting several coats of varnish on it not sure if that helps much at all. As is I have only had the lumber for 3 days now. 

I sure hope it goes well. My future counter tops are riding on this being a success.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

at 3.13$ a board I wouldn't hesitate to be '''annoying'''......

counter tops????


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Eric; if you're going to be doing a lot of this sort of stuff, Buy a bunch of the best you can find, then store it someplace _dry_ with strips of thin wood between the layers (that's called stickering...ie using sticks to separate). 
Don't be in a rush to use it...a couple of months at least. Just keep replacing what you use up. You'll be really unhappy if you use wood that's high in moisture internally!
Ideally single digit moisture content.
Sorry to hear about the lack of choice in wood suppliers. That's a bummer.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Oops...forgot to mention...*S4S* means* 'Sanded 4 Sides'*. You can can often find* S12E* at contractors lumber yards. That stands for *Sanded 1 Side and 2 Edges*...the short story is that one face is left rough, for appearance. We see that up here in milled Western Red Cedar especially. Used for Fascia boards etc.


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## 96BelisleAs (Aug 13, 2013)

Stick486 said:


> at 3.13$ a board I wouldn't hesitate to be '''annoying'''......
> 
> counter tops????


If the table goes well I was talking with my girlfriend about doing our counter tops in the kitchen in a similar way. The entire kitchen as soon as I have the money needs to be gutted. Cabinets, subfloor, ceiling, even the main wall is getting completely removed beams and all. I originally bought all the wood working stuff to renovate my kitchen. Figured in the end it will cost me the same doing it myself plus I get to keep the tools. 




DaninVan said:


> Eric; if you're going to be doing a lot of this sort of stuff, Buy a bunch of the best you can find, then store it someplace _dry_ with strips of thin wood between the layers (that's called stickering...ie using sticks to separate).
> Don't be in a rush to use it...a couple of months at least. Just keep replacing what you use up. You'll be really unhappy if you use wood that's high in moisture internally!
> Ideally single digit moisture content.
> Sorry to hear about the lack of choice in wood suppliers. That's a bummer.


There are several close to me, but no one kiln dries the lumber. Unfortunately I do not have the storage space. I barely have enough room for a functional wood working shop. 



DaninVan said:


> Oops...forgot to mention...*S4S* means* 'Sanded 4 Sides'*. You can can often find* S12E* at contractors lumber yards. That stands for *Sanded 1 Side and 2 Edges*...the short story is that one face is left rough, for appearance. We see that up here in milled Western Red Cedar especially. Used for Fascia boards etc.


Yeah that was the stuff I got. Nice boards but at 25% more than normal stock its a bit pricey when buying 30-50 of them at a time. I do have two stores locally that sell lumber but their selection is terrible and the quality is even worse.

Since I have both your attention on this thread and stick brought to my attention I needed three more clamps should I get more Bessey Parallel 50" Clamps? I do have four 3/4" pipe clamps (1 Bessey, 3 Jorgensen) but zero pipe to go with it. I was tempted to buy 2 and with the remaining $45 buy some pipe but not sure if pipe clamps are better or if spending the extra cash on more Bessey Parallel clamps is worth it in the long run. For me the benefit of the Parallel ones is I can clamps things vertically. I was worried about galvanized slipping and the black pipe leaving my stock filthy.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

I believe you are better off w/ pipe clamps..
w/ the Bessy clamps you are fixed in length...
w/ pipe clamps pipe comes in up to 21' lengths...
if you have a Bessy that's too short.. it's too short unless you are creative..
if your pipe clamp is too short you break out the pipe couplings and put two or more pipes together to get where you need to be...
no fumbling w/ pipe clamps either.. 
way more versatile...
simplest to adjust and use...

FWIW the price of one 50'' Bessy will buy a lot of pipe clamps and pipe...

clamp rack 1 of 3...

.


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## 96BelisleAs (Aug 13, 2013)

Stick486 said:


> I believe you are better off w/ pipe clamps..
> w/ the Bessy clamps you are fixed in length...
> w/ pipe clamps pipe comes in up to 21' lengths...
> if you have a Bessy that's too short.. it's too short unless you are creative..
> ...


 Now you're just showing off. That is why I bought a bunch of 50" ones, can't make them bigger but work alright with smaller projects. The 50" ones are $45 right now. Though they do get a bit bulky when working with the shorter clamping projects. 

As for your pipes. Galvanized or black? I've worked with black pipe before (Not with clamps) and I know the stuff makes a huge mess but I read they hold the clamps better than galvanized, which do you use? I might buy a 10' section and see if they'll cut and thread it for me into smaller sections.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

wasn't the plan...
the plan is to show there is no one answer...
both...
touch sand the galvanized smooth or buy EG (electro-galvanized) instead of hot dipped...
clean the pipe and furniture paste wax them...
in fact you should be waxing most all of your tools/tables..
be sure the isn't any silicone in the wax...
suggest you go w/ ¾'' pipe... 
ant sch40 pipe will work..
hit a scrap yard for pipe.. cheap..
way more forgiving when you have to ''torque'' something...

Johnson's paste wax for your tables and tools... 
You can add Briwax, Black Bison, Behlen, Trewax and Mohawk to the list of acceptable waxes...
If they contain Carnauba wax they will finish harder and be longer wearing/lasting...
You can even add more Carnauba if you want...

http://www.parkbeekeeping.com/products/detail/carnauba-wax

Wax applied to a warm surface is a big plus...
Mechanical polishing over hand buffing is way better.. (elcheapo car buffer or a wool bonnet on your ROS)...
Polishing is what makes the wax work to it's fullest...
More polishing.. Better results...

above all.. make sure it *DOES NOT *contain silicone...

Wax clean up/removal/thinning is done w/ mineral spirits...
A pound of wax should last way more than a decade maybe even well into the second...
Put it on any tool table surface you have...
Great for plane soles too... 
To melt/soften the wax put the container of wax in hot water but not submerged...

Carnauba wax, sometimes also referred to as palm wax or Brazil wax, is a kind of wax that is made from the extracts of palm leaves. These leaves are found on the plant ‘Copernicia prunifera’, a short plant that is usually found in Brazil, especially in the states of Ceara, Rio Grande do Norte and Piaui. Also known as the ‘Queen of waxes’, it is found in yellowish or brownish flakes.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

I've got both galv. and black Iron...no problems with either type. I just gave the black iron a good wipe down with Mineral Spirits/Varsol/Paint thinner...all basically the same thing.
You can buy the bl. iron from a heating/plbg. contractor or a plbg. whsl. The contractor will probably cut and thread your pipe for you for a cash 'donation'. 
Like Stick said, my choice would also be the 3/4".
Just a thought, but the Electrical whsl will carry *Aluminum* rigid in 10' lengths...threaded at either end. Never tried it for clamps but it might be too soft and scar easily(?).
Not cheap either but considerably lighter weight.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

it is too soft and the clamping rings really chew it up....


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Good to have that confirmed (on your dime rather than mine!)


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

you use what you have..


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## 96BelisleAs (Aug 13, 2013)

Well I don't have any that is why I asked. I scrapped all the old pipes I had laying around. I ended up picking up (3) of the 50" Bessey Revo Parallel Clamps for $40 each and I plan on going to Lowes or Home Depot this weekend to get some pipe and likely some sort of wood hand planer.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

never saw a decent plane at any of the BB's..
Buck Brothers aren't worth the money....

I'm really partial to Veritas...
Planes - Lee Valley Tools

these are worth a look as long as you get a V3 or later..
V1 and 2's are a waste...
Hand Planes, Bench Planes & More Wood Planes - Shop at Woodcraft.com

*DO NOT* buy any new sweet heart planes by Stanely..


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## 96BelisleAs (Aug 13, 2013)

Stick486 said:


> never saw a decent plane at any of the BB's..
> Buck Brothers aren't worth the money....
> 
> I'm really partial to Veritas...
> ...


I was actually looking at getting a Stanley so I guess that won't work. I'm not ready to pay $150-$200 for a hand planer so it looks like its going to wait.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

used Stanley are often good to go for a lot less money..
it's the new Stanley sweet hearts that are major let down...
old Stanley had their act together..

what do you have your eye on for a plane(s)...

consider these..
Buy WoodRiver Ultimate Cabinet Maker's Kit at Woodcraft.com

you find a plane that you like and if it needs refurbishing..
you are in the right place to learn how...
if you get on.
you are in the right place again to get the low down on how to tune it up...


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## 96BelisleAs (Aug 13, 2013)

I hadn't done any research on them really. On the 5 2x4s I have dry clamped together after trimming off one edge with the table saw. There was a board with a couple spots that weren't flush with the other four. Instead of sanding it down I figured I'd get a hand planer and plane the spots down to sit flush with the other 5 before I glue them and run them through the planer. I can just sand them for now.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

96BelisleAs said:


> I hadn't done any research on them really. On the 5 2x4s I have dry clamped together after trimming off one edge with the table saw. There was a board with a couple spots that weren't flush with the other four. Instead of sanding it down I figured I'd get a hand planer and plane the spots down to sit flush with the other 5 before I glue them and run them through the planer. I can just sand them for now.


good move...
a LA block plane may get you where you need to go...
you can take a mediocre plane and tune it up into something much better...
search here on planes...
tons of enlightenment..


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

study up on planes a bit...
ask questions...
head off to the flea markets or such..


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## 96BelisleAs (Aug 13, 2013)

Stick486 said:


> study up on planes a bit...
> ask questions...
> head off to the flea markets or such..


It'll be one of those purchases I probably stumble on. Someone actually just wrote me today because someone they know is selling off their wood working stuff and offered up a dust collection system.(Which I don't have yet) I put our Dyson to good use until I do. I can see what they have. Of course knowing him he'll tell me they have one but not mention the brand, condition or type.

On a different note. I have been strictly using Titebond 3 and have been buying it in gallon jugs. I notieced Titebond 2 is $10 cheaper, or roughly 40% cheaper than Titebond 2. Other than the difference in the 5 minute shorter glue up time would this be something I could use for the dining room table? I have no clue how much glue I'll need so I figured I'd buy another gallon jug but $10 cheaper is another $10 I can spend on something else.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Type two is my preference. But there's also other brands which are just as good.
I just like the dispenser top on the Titebond.


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## MT Stringer (Aug 15, 2012)

The only time I use TB3 is for cutting boards. For all other projects, it's TB2.

Just a note. Several years ago, I tore down my work bench and three drawers that I had built in 1988. The drawers were 3/4 plywood with simple butt joints, Elmer's white glue and finishing nails. I had to beat the drawer pieces apart, and when they separated, they pulled the wood apart. The glue held fast. :surprise:


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## 96BelisleAs (Aug 13, 2013)

Thanks guys. Normally I try to over due it rather than under do it but reading what both glues do I didn't see much of a difference other than dry time. Trying to make my shopping list right now and an extra $10 comes in handy $17 for II and $27 for III. Closest Lowe's or Home Depot is about an hour from me so I try to get my shopping lists in advance. If any of you guys do ebay they have a a promo right now until 5PM PST where you get $15 off $75 purchase ( CSUMMERFUN2016) should be good for anything but ebay motors (maybe Industrial stuff would have to check). You can buy multiple items under $75 as long as they total $75 or more before shipping and you ad them to your cart and pay for them at once. I plan on buying a $100 Lowe's Gift card for $85 and using a Lowe's code I have $15 off $50 purchase. I break those into two purchases so in the end I spend $85 and get $130 worth of stuff. The Lowe's code regenerates and is unlimited so if anyone of you are interested let me know and I can get you the link. Believe its good until mid July.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

96BelisleAs said:


> It'll be one of those purchases I probably stumble on. Someone actually just wrote me today because someone they know is selling off their wood working stuff and offered up a dust collection system.(Which I don't have yet) I put our Dyson to good use until I do. I can see what they have. Of course knowing him he'll tell me they have one but not mention the brand, condition or type.
> 
> On a different note. I have been strictly using Titebond 3 and have been buying it in gallon jugs. I notieced Titebond 2 is $10 cheaper, or roughly 40% cheaper than Titebond 2. Other than the difference in the 5 minute shorter glue up time would this be something I could use for the dining room table? I have no clue how much glue I'll need so I figured I'd buy another gallon jug but $10 cheaper is another $10 I can spend on something else.


TB III is suppose to be water resistant/proof... use it on outdoor projects...
buy Franklin...
same exact glue, same company only a lot cheaper still..
A gallon will go a long ways...
buy as you need it..

Plain Old Wood Glue works well for what you are doing...
lots of glues claim to work well on wood and a variety of other materials. But regular wood glue is usually the best choice for raw wood-to-wood joinery... 
Most wood glues are a type of polyvinyl acetate (PVA)... wood glue is formulated to penetrate wood fibers, making glue joints that are stronger than the wood itself.

if you get a lot of squeeze out - too much glue or too much clamp pressure...
firm clamp pressure and a little a squeeze out is much better...
Ideally, you'd like just enough pressure to hold the boards securely in place along the entirety of the mated surfaces, but not so much pressure that you squeeze most of the glue out of the joint....
a film of glue the thickness of a heavy piece of paper is a good place to start..
When you're gluing large surface a fine toothed notched plastic trowel works great for spreading the glue.... 

.










Some insist that you should clean it up immediately with a damp rag.
Others let it dry completely, then scrape it off....
I think that in most cases the best way is to wait about 30 to 60 minutes or just until the glue turns a darker color and changes to a gel...
now ya shave it off with a sharp offset paring chisel.... 
you can make one by bending an elcheapo chisel so that the blade rides flat on the wood and the handle is up off of the and easy to use... 
a regular chisel will work but you must be very careful not to gouge your work..
or one of these...
Veritas® Flush Plane - Lee Valley Tools
This will remove almost all of the glue without making a mess. You may still have a little cleanup to do, but it's a lot less work than cleaning up wet glue or removing hard glue....

you discover the rock-hard glue and realize that you forgot to scrape off the glue squeeze-out. 
No worries....
A sharp paint scraper makes fast work of hardened glue.... 
this style...
Carbide-Tipped Scrapers - Lee Valley Tools
or these...
Super-Hard Milled Scrapers - Lee Valley Tools
these are valuable, often, on a lot of projects later...

Once squeezed-out glue has been removed, there’s still a chance that some is hiding... if you don’t find it now, you’ll see it later when you apply stain or finish... 
Spray some warm water near glue joints to make hidden glue more visible. The water will also soften the dried glue, making it easier to scrape off....


*NOTE...*

PVA glue has lots of water in it, and that water will cause the wood edges at glue joints to swell. If you plane or sand glued-up panels too soon, you could be left with sunken joints after the wood dries and shrinks to its original state. Most water-based glues reach full cure in about 24 hours, but it can take several days for swollen glue joints to shrink back to size. If you’re gluing up a fine piece of furniture that you hope will become a family heirloom, wait a few days after gluing up your project before sanding or planing....

a little something to help ya out...

.


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## 96BelisleAs (Aug 13, 2013)

Stick486 said:


> TB III is suppose to be water resistant/proof... use it on outdoor projects...
> buy Franklin...
> same exact glue, same company only a lot cheaper still..
> A gallon will go a long ways...
> ...


Thanks. I have been doing a lot of reading on glue ups and I've seen a good number of people claim (though companies recommend 150 PSI glue ups) its essentially impossible to starve a glued joint with too much pressure by tightening clamps by hand. Unless you didn't use enough glue in the first place. Has anyone actually ever forced out too much glue by hand tightening clamps and starved a joint to where it didn't hold?


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

96BelisleAs said:


> Thanks. I have been doing a lot of reading on glue ups and I've seen a good number of people claim (though companies recommend 150 PSI glue ups) its essentially impossible to starve a glued joint with too much pressure by tightening clamps by hand. Unless you didn't use enough glue in the first place. Has anyone actually ever forced out too much glue by hand tightening clamps and starved a joint to where it didn't hold?


yes..
it happens w/ closed cell and some oily hardwoods...


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## 96BelisleAs (Aug 13, 2013)

I just learned something new. Had to google the term closed cell. 

Thanks for all the help guys. If anyone is interested and goes to Lowe's I use this site (linked below) which is always generating the new promo codes. I just used the $15 off $50 purchase (even though it says online it worked in store) four times last weekend in store(three times or me and one for the person who was waiting in line behind me) . It comes in handy. Just click on which ever one you want and in the next screen either use the number code it gives you, or there is another link which will open a screen with a bar code which can be scanned at check out. It generates new codes, alls you have to do is re-click on the original promo and get a new number/bar code. 


Free Lowe's Discount Promo Codes


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Does HD price match?


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

DaninVan said:


> Does HD price match?


they say they do...


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Eric..
See if some of this can help you...

http://workshopcompanion.com/KnowHow/Design/Nature_of_Wood/1_Wood_Grain/1_Wood_Grain.htm


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