# 40mm template guide



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Fellow members have always led me to believe that 40mm template guides were not available in the USA, the Makita 3612C in particular. I, like most people only tend to read instruction books when things get desperate! I was just reading the booklet that came with my 3612C several years ago and see that a 40mm guide part number 164472-4 is an accessory. I then entered that number into a Google search and was surprised at what came up, including this US site.

http://www.homelumbercom.com/prodsp...e=Product&template=prodspec.asp&value=1644724

Give it a try, for other brands too.


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

The site does not list sizes for any of the guide bushings. Bosch, DeWalt, Porter Cable, Milwaukee and Hitachi do not make the 40 mm or other metric guides.(per their web sites) I am going to check a local tool shop with the part number you listed to see if they have it available.


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## Hamlin (Dec 25, 2005)

Hi Harry,

Thanks, for the price listed, I didn't pass it up. Will let ya know when I receive it. 

Mike, I agree the size isn't listed nor posted on the web site. I think, (don't quote me), if you know the part #, ie., should be listed in the manual. You shouldn't have a problem finding said piece.  Btw, the 40mm guide isn't listed on Makita's USA site either. 




harrysin said:


> Fellow members have always led me to believe that 40mm template guides were not available in the USA, the Makita 3612C in particular. I, like most people only tend to read instruction books when things get desperate! I was just reading the booklet that came with my 3612C several years ago and see that a 40mm guide part number 164472-4 is an accessory. I then entered that number into a Google search and was surprised at what came up, including this US site.
> 
> http://www.homelumbercom.com/prodsp...e=Product&template=prodspec.asp&value=1644724
> 
> Give it a try, for other brands too.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

O Great Harry

Now I need to buy a Makita router just to use a 40mm mickey mouse guide  NOT  

But I'm sure the members that have a Makita router will buy one.. great find you old fart , you may want to edit the picture to show the size. ID,OD,and the height...

=========






harrysin said:


> Fellow members have always led me to believe that 40mm template guides were not available in the USA, the Makita 3612C in particular. I, like most people only tend to read instruction books when things get desperate! I was just reading the booklet that came with my 3612C several years ago and see that a 40mm guide part number 164472-4 is an accessory. I then entered that number into a Google search and was surprised at what came up, including this US site.
> 
> http://www.homelumbercom.com/prodsp...e=Product&template=prodspec.asp&value=1644724
> 
> Give it a try, for other brands too.


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## Ray H (Nov 22, 2008)

Makita's web site list 164472-4 as a 1 37/64" guide.

Ray H


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## Hamlin (Dec 25, 2005)

Hi Bj,

In defense to Harry, the pic posted is directly from the site. As Mike pointed out, there's no listing of actual size.

Harry did make me dig out my manuals, thankfully I kept both. The info, listed is NOT in the newer manuals. It only states to contact your local Makita service center. Also, in the older manuals, it lists the guide sizes in metric first then in inch size.

If you'd like I can try to scan the page(s) from my manual & try to post them.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

HI Ken

No big deal,, I was just poking Metric Harry just a little bit, he is stuck in the metric world  and would like the rest of the world to switch over to it and drive on the wrong side of the road..  LOL 


======







Hamlin said:


> Hi Bj,
> 
> In defense to Harry, the pic posted is directly from the site. As Mike pointed out, there's no listing of actual size.
> 
> ...


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## Hamlin (Dec 25, 2005)

Hi Bj,

LOL, I know, you and Harry like to play "ping pong" with each other here on the forums. ( I just sit on the sidelines watchin, I think ya both are tied  ) I was only trying to clear the info for others who don't know. 

For others who do have the 3612C. I did do some searching thru the USA Makita site. The web site Harry listed IS upon their listings.


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## RustyW (Dec 28, 2005)

The manual that came with my Hitachi M12V2 lists part numbers for imperial and metric guides. Up to and including 40mm. But when I contacted Hitachi they said, not available in the US. Does'nt really matter much though since I have no metric bits. I think that would be harder to figure out the offsets. The larger guides from Oak Park or LeeValley get you pretty close to 40mm. And give the same benefits as far as chip(swarf) removal,and collett clearance.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

RustyW said:


> The manual that came with my Hitachi M12V2 lists part numbers for imperial and metric guides. Up to and including 40mm. But when I contacted Hitachi they said, not available in the US. Does'nt really matter much though since I have no metric bits. I think that would be harder to figure out the offsets. The larger guides from Oak Park or LeeValley get you pretty close to 40mm. And give the same benefits as far as chip(swarf) removal,and collett clearance.


You are so right Rusty, there is nothing magical about a 40mm guide, it is just a very convenient size for all the reasons you stated plus of course it's so easy to calculate off-sets.
Having said that, I do believe that the US will join the rest of the civilised world and become fully metric before I'm finally laid to rest.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

"Now I need to buy a Makita router just to use a 40mm mickey mouse guide NOT "

Not so Bj, you need to buy one so that you have at least ONE quality router in your collection!, once used, you will never use another, have I ever lied to you?


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

HI Harry

I have one Makita and that's the last one for me..
I'm not a big fan of plastic routers 
At one time I liked Makita, I must have 8 or 10 battery drills but all but one is now DEAD , switch errors,batteries always dead,charger dead,etc.

The Makita router I have is a small one that's setup for blind dovetails and that's it...

I do like the routers that can do more than one job that's to say the motor can be taken out and put in a diff. base unlike the plastic case routers.. 

=




harrysin said:


> "Now I need to buy a Makita router just to use a 40mm mickey mouse guide NOT "
> 
> Not so Bj, you need to buy one so that you have at least ONE quality router in your collection!, once used, you will never use another, have I ever lied to you?


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## dovetail_65 (Jan 22, 2008)

I liked my 3612 but as far as routers, no Makita for me. They make one killer Miter box though. Many friends love the Makita's brand new drills too. I prefer the Panasonic drills and sold my Makita router, but the Makita 3612 was a nice router, though dated.

As far as the other Makita routers I have tried I really think the new Craftsman are better than any Makita router they make now. I used to love Hitachi, Makita and DeWalt, but as of late their tools are not as good or maybe it's that the other manufacturers have just stepped it up.

I sold the Makita 3612 the week after I received my Festool routers there just was no comparison.


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## Birchwood (May 13, 2005)

Okay Harry, when you are finally laid to rest should we dig a hole 6 feet by four feet by 5 feet deep or would you like it 1.9 meters by 1.4 meters by 1.8 meters. And during the wake in your honor should we crack open a litre of good bourbon or just a more generous quart?
I will bring a small cake for guests......20 cms X 30cms with a frosting layer 4mm thick. Unfortunately I won't be able to arrend since I am a whole lot of kilometers away from you!!!


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

Hi all

if you go to this Makita site and click on the 'details' they list all the template guides and their sizes (non metric)

ps 1 37/64" = 1.578 125 inch = 40.084 375 millimeter (close enough for me)

http://www.makita.com/en-us/Modules/Accessories/AccessoryDetails.aspx?ID=34499

Going to the local dealer today to see if I can order one.

James


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

*PS: part number*

PS the part number for the 40mm template guide, in Australia, is 165046-4.

And Makita Aus have them in stock. Ordered mine today...

James


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

"I sold the Makita 3612 the week after I received my Festool routers there just was no comparison."

Could you please give reasons for this statement. By the way, I have NEVER praised the 3612, only the 3612C, the variable speed 2400 watt version.

As a matter of interest Bj, have you or has anyone else broken the light weight plastic case of a Makita router, just interested!


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Birch, a hole 300mm deep by 200mm wide will be just fine for my ashes and a rose bush, however, I wont complain if it's 12" x 8".


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

"I do like the routers that can do more than one job that's to say the motor can be taken out and put in a diff. base unlike the plastic case routers.."

This statement surprises me Bj, in view of the large number of routers that you own, why else would anyone have so many if it wasn't to dedicate each one for a specific task, making for a very speedy project.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

HI Harry

No, not the routers but I broke my share of the Makita drills that's looks like the same stuff...

=====



harrysin said:


> "I sold the Makita 3612 the week after I received my Festool routers there just was no comparison."
> 
> Could you please give reasons for this statement. By the way, I have NEVER praised the 3612, only the 3612C, the variable speed 2400 watt version.
> 
> As a matter of interest Bj, have you or has anyone else broken the light weight plastic case of a Makita router, just interested!


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Harry

I guess it comes down to, I like toys but I like some toys better than some others... 

========



harrysin said:


> "I do like the routers that can do more than one job that's to say the motor can be taken out and put in a diff. base unlike the plastic case routers.."
> 
> This statement surprises me Bj, in view of the large number of routers that you own, why else would anyone have so many if it wasn't to dedicate each one for a specific task, making for a very speedy project.


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## Hamlin (Dec 25, 2005)

> I guess it comes down to, I like toys but I like some toys better than some others...


LOL, don't we all? 

Bj's sentiments about Makita is similar to mine about DeWalt.


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

I guess this is why they make two kinds of ice cream; people have different preferences. Never having broken the casings on my multitude of Makita tools (except the one that fell 12 feet onto concrete) I see no problem with them.
All this is besides the point which was that metric guide bushings are not available in the US. If they can be ordered for only the Makita 3612 and not for the many other routers available that is not a solution.


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

Harry,

We're winning....even the yanks want a metric template guide bushing.

   

We will have them talking in kilometers (kilometres) next...

James


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

jw2170 said:


> Harry,
> 
> We're winning....even the yanks want a metric template guide bushing.
> 
> ...


Yes James I've been, and intend to carry on being patient with our American and Canadian cousins. I don't normally dob people in for anything without their permission, however I'm going to suggest that my good friend and fellow forum member Terry Galbraith (Visteonguy) who is a fine metal machinist with access to suitable machine tools might be interested in quoting a price for making 40mm template guides to suit your most popular routers.


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Harry, this job is one for a CNC lathe. It is the only cost effective method for producing multiple sets of these bushings. I plan on speaking to the Lee Valley rep at the woodworking show next week about producing metric guide bushings. I'm sure Terry could "one off" a set but would not want to produce them in bulk.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Rather than "sets" Mike, I was thinking only about the ubiquitous (but not in the USA) 40mm guide. I'm pleased that you are still tuned in to metric, but then, YOU know the benefits.


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

*Mine have arrived*

Harry,

Just collected mine from Total Tools

Also a 16mm for using as a mortise cutter

James


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

I'm quite certain that these could be fabricated in the US at very low cost, a round disc with a tube spot welded from the rear.
Now no excuses for omitting photo-shoots with all your future projects James, for each project without a photo-shoot, I won't talk to you on Skype for a week!
(I've just had a thought about that, I may be punishing myself rather than you)


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

Yes, Harry,
I thought they were expensive as well.

It is strange that the 16mm guide was nearly twice the cost of the 40mm guide.

Well, at least I have them now.....

I have just ordered in some 18mm plywood, so the project over Christmas / New Year will be a rolling cart for the table saw...

James


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

harrysin said:


> You are so right Rusty, there is nothing magical about a 40mm guide, it is just a very convenient size for all the reasons you stated plus of course it's so easy to calculate off-sets.
> Having said that, I do believe that the US will join the rest of the civilised world and become fully metric before I'm finally laid to rest.


Harry, I hope very much that you are correct. However, you may need a long and healthy life. We (the United States) did try it once before only to have it squelched by a penny-wise pound foolish president, who did many other things the fruit of which we are now harvesting, and driving the world to economic disaster. We have so many problems for the incoming President that switching to metric for the general public is going to be a priority that is so low that it will be not visible.

I now always quote measurements on this forum in the form of either imperial or metric, depending on the intended recipient, followed by the other system in parentheses, rounded to the level of precision I deem appropriate for the situation.

I too am very curious as to why one would be so dissatisfied with a Makita router that they would sell it. As do you, I see little use for the 3612, but the variable speed 3612C is a router that does everything that I need. It may be that the 3612C is the best router Makita sells. The lower powered routers appear to me to have a very unfavorable price/value ratio.

Although you are now several hours into 2009, and I am more than 14 hours away from it, Happy New Year Harry. 

May the Lord bless and keep the shingles/chicken pox far, far away from you, and all others who have to deal with it (including me!)


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## dovetail_65 (Jan 22, 2008)

No way will the US be fully metric before I am laid to rest and I am only 43.

You must know in school we all learn metric. In college it is all that is used in science we just do not use it for goods sold. Our woodworkers and carpenters are the ones who choose not to convert,. If woodworkers really wanted it the companies would change. 

So really the US does use metric, again just not on everyday items for weights and measurements. Any high school grad knows metric here in the US. And especially anyone who did any college in any science class.

Heck we learn the Dewey Decimal system for library use in 2ng grade, but I do not see us going to liters from gallons or to Kg from lbs or from Miles per hour to Kilometers per hour, not in my lifetime. Actually, I do not want to. There is something to be said of the perfect Mile distance for a running race.


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

nickao65 said:


> No way will the US be fully metric before I am laid to rest and I am only 43.
> 
> You must know in school we all learn metric. In college it is all that is used in science we just do not use it for goods sold. Our woodworkers and carpenters are the ones who choose not to convert,. If woodworkers really wanted it the companies would change.
> 
> ...


Nick, all the high school students in the US do not learn the metric system; not even the science-oriented students. Even in the college junior level course I teach, I have to teach the basics of the metric system. In the freshman labs I am required to do a lab on the metric system which the U.S. educated students find mystifying, but the foreign educated students do not understand why so much time is wasted on such simple material.

In my earlier post to Harry I did point out that with all the problems with which we are faced, (including those arising in the state in which I now live, Illinois), converting the U.S. to metric will necessarily be of such low priority that it will not be detectable.


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## dovetail_65 (Jan 22, 2008)

Say what? I have 6 kids and went to high school myself. 

How the heck do you do a science class with no metric system!

Everyone learn Dewey Decimal for library. If they do not get them in another school!

What state do you live in? I see it says IL, but I have lived here my entire life in three school districts and all my kids learned metric and for science how can you not.

Well maybe I was lucky because my school districts teach metric, my daughters 8th grade math is full of it and even my 6th grade came home with meters vs tons just the other day. He just asked me what a liter was not two weeks ago. What the heck is going on that all the schools are different? 

I went to community college 2 years and you were expected to know metric already. I did. I mean I lived here in IL and obviously learned it.

Maybe I should be glad I live in and grew up in the northern IL suburbs after all.


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

Nick, I live and work in a part of Illinois called Forgotonia; it is west-central Illinois. Our High School has one of the best music programs in the state, but my two sons, one a senior and the other a sophomore do not know the metric system. The high school physics teacher emphasizes that physics is too complicated for the students to learn. My wife has prevented me from actively seeking to have that teacher fired. We did spend a year (98-99 in a Chicago suburb when my older son was in the first grade. When we moved back to west-central Illinois, the difference in the quality of education was very apparent to me. Many of the students I "teach" come from No Child Brought Forward (oops, Freudian slip; No Chlld Left Behind) schools. Among all our entering students, 80% are placed in a remedial math course. Unfortunately they are required to complete it and the lowest level "real" math course only before graduation. I cannot even get calculus required for our Biology majors (my department). I am working to have entering students from a No Chlld Left Behind school defined as having a curable learning disability. 

I very much hope that your experience is far more representative of U.S education than is mine. 
I am a product of a small high school with an excellent physics and chemistry teacher; I had taught myself the metric system in late elementary school. I went on to complete my education at universities that are recognized as the top in the world in my field. In no way does my educational background make me a "better" person than anyone else in the world.

Nick, in spite of my tone, I am not trying to be disagreeable.


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## dovetail_65 (Jan 22, 2008)

Oh know I am just dismayed. 

Of course they can learn physics, oh my gosh no wonder the other countries are so ahead in science! 

My 8th grader already takes high school calculus(they call it Pre calc) and as a freshman next year will be in AP calculus(after accelerated AP Algebra) and in junior year will be in a college calculus course if she holds a B or better. 

She is the smartest of the 6 kids, but still there must be at least 30 other kids doing this program with her this year and next year.

When I just asked my son(6th grade) about metric he laughed and said dad I do that in science class. I said what is a liter and he responded "well it is a measurement used for liquid and its like a little more than 2 liters in a gallon, 2.2, I think". 

I told him that was wrong and he must be thinking of lbs verse Kilo's(2.2 lbs to 1 Kg), but at least I know they are learning something about metric.

I had no idea there was such a disparity in schools. Something needs to be done about this!


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## reuelt (Dec 29, 2008)

*40mm template Guide over promoted?*

I respect the opinion of people who promote the use of the 40mm template guide bush. They are certainly useful in certain situations but it should not be the first guide bush purchased or ever used.

Demerits:
1. 40mm is too big for designs that have small acute angles or concave curves. Using a 40mm Guide could loose many details.

2. Commercial templates often need smaller templates bush 30mm or smaller.
3. Most routers already come say a 30mm or 18mm guide bush.
4. Many big router bits already come with bearings.
5. There are others ways to complete the task more acurately . Like remembering that the base plate itself is already a guide. Or use a router table, or inverted pin, or router copier or even a CNC router.

It bothers me that some even say we should buy Makita router because 40mm guide bush is still sold by Makita. 

A "non essential item" should not be promoted like "snake oil - cure all.


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## dovetail_65 (Jan 22, 2008)

Yes the 40 mm is to big for 95% of any work I have ever done. But still nice to have in your bag of tricks.


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Reuelt, I get the impression you do not know the reasons why the 40 mm guide is promoted. It is the same reason why in North America the 1-1/2" guide bushing is promoted. This large sized opening is big enough to let the collet enter the guide body with clearance. This means more routing depth with out resorting to extension collets which are more likely to cause chatter. The larger area also allows for easier debris evacuation from the cut. These are two very good reasons for owning the larger size guide bushings. No, they are not for all jobs but what tool is? Having these large diameter guide bushings gives you more options for offsets too. Metric guide bushings are not readily available in North America which is the focus of this thread. Bit mounted bearings are useful but nowhere near as versatile as a nice assortment of guide bushings.


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## dovetail_65 (Jan 22, 2008)

The 40 mm is nice but as far as the chip evacuation I see no value in that for me. I can use a bit a 1/16 smaller than the guide and still get total evacuation of the dust. If you had no dust collector it may be an issue.

Letting your plunge go deeper does have value for sure, especially if you have a DeWalt 625 which does not plunge very far.

I have learned the hard way bits with bearings are not good for repetitive use of a template. Microscopic amounts from the template are removed each time you route, changing the template shape enough to mess up the inlay. 

You also do get a better edge more consistently with the template guides than using bits with bearings, especially in hand held operations.

But still he does have a point about a newbie not worrying about such a large template guide at first.


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## jjciesla (Oct 20, 2007)

This whole thread reminded me of the time of the movement to convert to metric. As I was in the design engineering field at the time I remember the thunderous outcry from the machine tool industry about the cost of converting all the tooling in the USA to metric, not to mention the retraining of all the workers. I, in fact, learned the metric system in school and did many design jobs in metric. From that vantage point it’s a lot easier to roll through a design. I currently lay out most of my woodworking projects in inches, not metric, even though I know metric is quicker. Why? It became second nature do to the country we live in. At this point I think the best system to use is the one you are comfortable with. IMHO


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

HI Guys

I just don't get it  

I don't have one plan that calls for a 40mm guide..I made one or two just for kicks and will never use them I think, so it's not a big deal unless you are in the UK or down under 

I just don't get the big deal is with the 40mm guide.. 

======


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

jjciesla said:


> This whole thread reminded me of the time of the movement to convert to metric. As I was in the design engineering field at the time I remember the thunderous outcry from the machine tool industry about the cost of converting all the tooling in the USA to metric, not to mention the retraining of all the workers. I, in fact, learned the metric system in school and did many design jobs in metric. From that vantage point it’s a lot easier to roll through a design. I currently lay out most of my woodworking projects in inches, not metric, even though I know metric is quicker. Why? It became second nature do to the country we live in. At this point I think the best system to use is the one you are comfortable with. IMHO


I agree with you completely. I do wish the U.S. had gone along with the rest of the world and gone metric. Was the thunderous outcry from the workers or from the vastly overpaid deskbound office people? 

However this forum is very international in nature and so I express measurements in both Imperial and Metric. I do think in metric except in terms of things like driving distances, gasoline purchases, etc. Woodworking is an area in which I use metric except when the conversion from imperial becomes too time consuming.

I am surprised to learn from Nick that bits with bearings cause microscopic loss of template material, but upon further reflection it does make sense. Thanks, Nick.

The 1 1/2 inch template guide is very close to 40 mm (38.1 mm) that we in the U. S. can probably get by most of the time. If I remember correctly this point was made by Template Tom


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## dovetail_65 (Jan 22, 2008)

I found template guides that are as big a 50, 60 even 70mm and at least one imperial that is 2 1/8". 

The only reason for such big guides is not for inlay, but just to allow you to use big cutters with no bearings, even though bits that big are arguably to big for a hand held router anyway.

One reason the guys like the 40mm is because the calculations for offset and finding the accompanying guide for inlay is so darn simple using it.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

HI NIck

I made a full set but so I just use them for off sets, that's to say make one template ..and then use them for off sets to make it bigger or smaller item 

I don't use any bit bigger than 1 1/2" in a hand router, it's just not safe..many of the bits will state for a router table only ,,,that puts the 40mm guide in the tube most of the time..  or anything bigger than.

=========





nickao65 said:


> I found template guides that are as big a 50, 60 even 70mm and at least one imperial that is 2 1/8".
> 
> The only reason for such big guides is not for inlay, but just to allow you to use big cutters with no bearings, even though bits that big are arguably to big for a hand held router anyway.
> 
> One reason the guys like the 40mm is because the calculations for offset and finding the accompanying guide for inlay is so darn simple using it.


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## jjciesla (Oct 20, 2007)

Levon,
Where did that come from?


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## Bob N (Oct 12, 2004)

Okay folks, let's play nice and not let this thread get heated and go by the wayside. There is a lot of good information exchanged here and can continue to be exchanged if we don't get too emotional about it.

Let's all be respectful of our neighbors no matter what system of measure they use and leave the goverment remarks for other forums. This is a woodworking forum after all.


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## levon (Sep 14, 2008)

sorry Bob, i shouldnt speak on a subject that bothers me. i apologize to anyone i may have offended. i am often wrong and sometimes too hardheaded to see it.


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## Bob N (Oct 12, 2004)

Thank you for understanding levon it is very much appreciated. Let's just move on and continue sharing woodworking information. We are all friends here, and can sometimes get a little emotional about our beliefs.


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## dovetail_65 (Jan 22, 2008)

Well Levon you just made my case why I think metric will NEVER be here in America for things like gas purchases and standard weights and such.

I know Harrysin said he thought in his lifetime America would change to metric, but maybe after reading your thoughts he will see what is in many Americans minds and may change his mind on the subject. It has nothing to do with what is simpler or easier or what makes more sense. There are just to many people that feel like you for it to ever change. It is part of the US being the US, being different and to many agree with you.

Doesn't everyone know we Americans are the best in the world and always right? 

That is a joke to those who miss that.

It sure is simple to figure the offset calculations using metric and that is not an arguable point.

Oh yes, Happy New Year to all!


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

nickao65 said:


> Oh know I am just dismayed.
> 
> Of course they can learn physics, oh my gosh no wonder the other countries are so ahead in science!
> 
> ...



Nick, if you do not object, I would like to move our discussion to the lobby. You make very important points about which I feel very strongly (largely in agreement with you), and as Mike reminded us all, The Router Forums is about woodworking.

Bob, I have sometimes stepped over the line. I will try to keep my comments limited to woodworking issues and express other opinions in the lobby.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi mftha

No big deal for me ,,, I like to read them all  


=======



mftha said:


> Nick, if you do not object, I would like to move our discussion to the lobby. You make very important points about which I feel very strongly (largely in agreement with you), and as Mike reminded us all, The Router Forums is about woodworking.
> 
> Bob, I have sometimes stepped over the line. I will try to keep my comments limited to woodworking issues and express other opinions in the lobby.


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## dovetail_65 (Jan 22, 2008)

No problem, sometime threads get off topic, but you just brought it back on track, so whatever you think is best.


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## template tom (Sep 18, 2004)

*40mm Template Guides*

Well when I first started talking about the use of the 40mm guide I was unaware it was going to go to this length. At the time I began I had the 16mm guide supplied with my router and I suppose like all others was unaware of the potential of the guides at that time (Going back 20+ years). I suppose at that time dovetail Jigs required the use of the smaller guides and maybe it was used to make an article bigger by first producing a Template. I would say then that was my impression as to how the Template guides were to be used as that was all that was written at the time. And I must say there has been very little material published on the use of the guides over the past 20 years.

Why 40mm? That was one the sizes available for my router along with the 16mm and the 30mm. (I now have a great range of other diameters 39mm and 41mm as well as 56 60 70 80 90 100 and of course the second one that came with the router 160mm (the base of the router). 

One of the other advantages of having such a variety of diameters It is possible to complete a project with the same template and just change the template guides and cutters and I suppose that is where it all began when I produced a door facing on an executive jet which was made from 7-8mm material and was only 120mm long and 50mm wide.

I put this method up to try and add greater interest to what you can produce with the router and that was way back in 2004. Twice I had left the forum because of the negative attitude I was getting from some long standing members who were condemning the method without even giving it a try. I was please to see some members did and they did report on what they had achieved.

I also produced an article on 'Introduction to the use of template guides' which is still there as a 'Sticky' for all to download.

Bob and Rick had the right idea and went forward to produce TV shows, and I am sure with their presentations many would have learnt a lot with the use of the router. 

I was like all other users of the router going back those 40+ years as I had the router inserted in the router table, it was a fixed base router and I was teaching woodwork at the time. It was a great asset to the school and helped to produce some projects suitable for the students. Of course at that time routers were considered dangerous and the students were limited to what they were allowed to do, I suppose the same still stands today as to what you would ask a student to do on the router table and a get number of teachers are doing the job for them 

What I have tried to do is introduce Safety with the router once the jigs and templates are produced and it has worked if I can put the router into the hands of a blind person and they do all the work. The jigs and template were constructed by me but when you look at it is no different to asking them to use the big jig(router table) 

*Forget about the 40mm guide* as I have said in the past the 1 3/8" will do exactly the same, all you have to do is make your calculations to suit the project you are working on at the time. I was brought up on the imperial system, we changed in 1967 and it was not easy by any means one day I was teaching in imperial and the next day I was teaching metric.

Getting others here in Australia to use the 40mm guide has not been easy by any means. Those that did see the demonstration at the time when I was touring Australian wood shows were converted and went away with a better understanding on 'How to get more from their router' 

Just before Christmas I made an offer on our local Woodworking web site. I asked the first 10 members who responded to my posting that I would send them copies of my DVDs I had just completed (at a reduced rate,) subject to them giving me some feed back on the contents and how I can improve the format. Making DVDs is all new to me and it took some time to make the completed set. What I attempted to do was to re-write my CD-ROMs which is now in a PDF format and produce the same material with some action.

Reply from BobJ3
_I made a full set but so I just use them for off sets, that's to say make one template ..and then use them for off sets to make it bigger or smaller item 

I don't use any bit bigger than 1 1/2" in a hand router, it's just not safe..many of the bits will state for a router table only ,,,that puts the 40mm guide in the tube most of the time.. or anything bigger than._

This what is wrong you are not taking advantage of the different sizes of guides that you have produced and to be using them in the router table is defeating the purpose of having them. You for one must _'look outside the square' _by you own admission you do all your work in the router table you are not really using the template guides. 

Reply from Nick
_I found template guides that are as big a 50, 60 even 70mm and at least one imperial that is 2 1/8". 

The only reason for such big guides is not for inlay, but just to allow you to use big cutters with no bearings, even though bits that big are arguably to big for a hand held router anyway.

One reason the guys like the 40mm is because the calculations for offset and finding the accompanying guide for inlay is so darn simple using it._

Nick I have used a 1.6mm cutter with the 40mm guide so it is not only for larger cutters

From Bobj3
HI Guys

I_ just don't get it 

I don't have one plan that calls for a 40mm guide..I made one or two just for kicks and will never use them I think, so it's not a big deal unless you are in the UK or down under 

I just don't get the big deal is with the 40mm guide.. _

Bob people on this forum look up to you for advice and you respond to their questions and offer help but what you have said may put others off using the guides just because 'You have said it' 

From Reuelt
40mm template Guide over promoted?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I respect the opinion of people who promote the use of the 40mm template guide bush. They are certainly useful in certain situations but it should not be the first guide bush purchased or ever used."

It was never my intention to say this is the first template guide you should purchase 

Demerits:
1. 40mm is too big for designs that have small acute angles or concave curves. Using a 40mm Guide could loose many details.

We all agree to what you say they are not suitable for small curves

2. Commercial templates often need smaller templates bush 30mm or smaller.

2. I am talking about making your own templates.


3. Most routers already come say a 30mm or 18mm guide bush.

Yes but this would restrict the size of the largest cutter that can be used with safety

4. Many big router bits already come with bearings.

When using templates with template guides we do not use the bearing cutters

5. There are others ways to complete the task more accurately . Like remembering that the base plate itself is already a guide. Or use a router table, or inverted pin, or router copier or even a CNC router.

Of course there are other ways to complete the task, do we have the finance to purchase such items you have mentioned and the other question to ask *'Is it Safer'*


It bothers me that some even say we should buy Makita router because 40mm guide bush is still sold by Makita. 

Makita routers are well distributed here in Australia not everyone agrees that it is the best router to use when using template guides but if I were to recommend a router I would suggest that Makita should be considered what you buy is your own choice.

A "non essential item" should not be promoted like "snake oil - cure all. 

I assume you are referring to the 40mm guide as being non essential. I can assure you it is the most used in my collection or I would not be able to produce some of the items (See my Gallery)

From Mike

Having these large diameter guide bushings gives you more options for offsets too. Metric guide bushings are not readily available in North America which is the focus of this thread. Bit mounted bearings are useful but nowhere near as versatile as a nice assortment of guide bushings. 

Thank you Mike for all the support you have given me and the Template guides. It is because of you that I have continued to promote the use of the guides and hence the production of the DVDs which I will forward to you for your perusal and comments all I need is your snail address as i am sure I have lost it in the system.

To all other users who may take time to get to the end of this long winded reply.

"Keep routing with what you have and you will keep getting the same results"

Take time to learn the new techniques I have produced to add greater Safety with your router and produce more interesting projects.

When I get some feed back from the Australian Forum I will pass on the information.
Tom


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## dovetail_65 (Jan 22, 2008)

Don't leave the forum because people are in disagreement your posts are to valuable!

Of course you can use smaller bits with larger template guides I did not mean to imply you had to use larger bits! In my research I found that the bigger template guides were initially designed and produced to accommodate large bits with no bearings, that was my only point.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

I had intended to add my two pennyworth but it has taken me so long to read through all the posts that I've forgotten lots of what has been said and by whom, I will simply say, don't knock something new before trying it, a good example of what I mean is ski routing, Bj3 was the most anti ski member that you could imagine, but I kept chipping away until he finally tried the method, and the result?, he's now one of it's greatest advocates of ski routing. A very happy new year to you all.


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## istracpsboss (Sep 14, 2008)

I can buy 40mm Trend guides for UKP6.50 at the moment, including postage, which with the current state of the Pound, is a good deal.
It occurred to me to wonder how you centre them? My Milescraft base came with a couple of handy centring tools to ensure that the base is truly centred to the axis of the router. The Milescraft template guides are very close fitting in the base so no problem for that style of template guides.
The Trend ones fit differently though and presumably have some slight slack in the two fitting screws. It would be nice to be sure that the guide was accurately centred before nipping up the screws. I could always turn up a 1.2" / 40mm setting tool on my metal working lathe but before doing so I'd welcome comments. True centricity of the template guide is surely critical.

Cheers

Peter


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

In my opinion all template guides are best suited for plunge routing as I've stated on numerous occasions.


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## derek willis (Jan 21, 2009)

Here in the U/K metric measurement is the best thing that happened to calculations, made setting out large buildings so much easier.
Derek.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Peter

If you have a metal lathe you can make one like the one below that works great for many routers,,and it's very accurate 

The one below is made out of Alum. but it can be just about anything,i.e. brass 

======


istracpsboss said:


> I can buy 40mm Trend guides for UKP6.50 at the moment, including postage, which with the current state of the Pound, is a good deal.
> It occurred to me to wonder how you centre them? My Milescraft base came with a couple of handy centring tools to ensure that the base is truly centred to the axis of the router. The Milescraft template guides are very close fitting in the base so no problem for that style of template guides.
> The Trend ones fit differently though and presumably have some slight slack in the two fitting screws. It would be nice to be sure that the guide was accurately centred before nipping up the screws. I could always turn up a 1.2" / 40mm setting tool on my metal working lathe but before doing so I'd welcome comments. True centricity of the template guide is surely critical.
> 
> ...


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## dovetail_65 (Jan 22, 2008)

Bob did you make that or buy it?

Want to sell me one?


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Bj, that multi stepped centring jig is brilliant but, because all my routing using template guides is done with the plunge router it would be of no use to me.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

derek willis said:


> Here in the U/K metric measurement is the best thing that happened to calculations, made setting out large buildings so much easier.
> Derek.


Keep repeating that really loud Derek so that one day our American friends will realise the benefits of what we're saying.


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## istracpsboss (Sep 14, 2008)

Love it Bob!
I hadn't thought of making it multisize! Even better!

Cheers

Peter


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## istracpsboss (Sep 14, 2008)

harrysin said:


> Bj, that multi stepped centring jig is brilliant but, because all my routing using template guides is done with the plunge router it would be of no use to me.


Why not, Harry? I'm going to use it in one, too. Surely all routers need the guide to be concentric with the cutter?

Cheers

Peter


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

My two main routers have round bases and, during plunge routing I rotate the router going around corners and I've never had any inaccuracies in my projects. Now when using the guides in the table, that's a totally different matter, concentricity is essential because the mounting of the router can be off centre to the hole in the table.


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## derek willis (Jan 21, 2009)

Harry,
REPEATED, REPEATED,REPEATED,
Here in the U/K metric measurement is the best thing that happened to calculations, made setting out large buildings so much easier.
Derek
Here in the U/K metric measurement is the best thing that happened to calculations, made setting out large buildings so much easier.
Derek
Here in the U/K metric measurement is the best thing that happened to calculations, made setting out large buildings so much easier.
Derek

Here in the U/K metric measurement is the best thing that happened to calculations, made setting out large buildings so much easier.
Derek


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Keep it up Derek, I'm right behind you. When you think about it, aren't the advantages of metric so obvious. I arrived in Australia in 1964, into an Imperial country from an Imperial country and it wasn't until Feb 14th 1966 that we changed to metric, and I confess that it took a while for the system to click with me, but when it did I realised what I'd been missing all those years.


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## derek willis (Jan 21, 2009)

Harry,
I don't know when we changed, but, I received my first bill and drawing for pricing in the office in 1965, and how easy it is to work on a bill of quantities when it is in metric.
Derek.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

HI NIck

I made that one ,,, the next time I fire up the lathe I will make you one but I need to get some more alum.stock b/4 I can do it...

The one I made will work with the sommerfeld setup/1 3/16"/1 1/2" guides, it's so easy to use,,, 1/4" on one end 1/2" on the other end so it will fit just about any router setup...plunge or table router.. 


=====



nickao65 said:


> Bob did you make that or buy it?
> 
> Want to sell me one?


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi derek

It must have been in 1776 when we kicked most of that metric junk out with many of the other things you guys do,,,you guys do many things backwards like drive on the wrong side of the road...and you go from place to place telling every one it should be done this way and some like the USA just say No...take your tea and metric system and take it home with you... thank you very much.. 


======



derek willis said:


> Harry,
> I don't know when we changed, but, I received my first bill and drawing for pricing in the office in 1965, and how easy it is to work on a bill of quantities when it is in metric.
> Derek.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

"and you go from place to place telling every one it should be done this way"

Isn't that EXACTLY what you do Bj, like for instance the discussion on Forstner bits Etc.

Fortunately Poms and ex-Poms like me generally have broad shoulders and can take criticism, we can also sort the chaff from the wheat. Have a good day Bob.


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## derek willis (Jan 21, 2009)

Bob, no need to be offensive.
derek.


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## Woodlee (Jan 23, 2009)

harrysin said:


> Keep it up Derek, I'm right behind you. When you think about it, aren't the advantages of metric so obvious. I arrived in Australia in 1964, into an Imperial country from an Imperial country and it wasn't until Feb 14th 1966 that we changed to metric, and I confess that it took a while for the system to click with me, but when it did I realised what I'd been missing all those years.



Harry,
14th Feb 1966 is when we dropped Pounds ,Shillings and Pence and adopted the Dollars and Cents as currency .
I think it was later we adopted the Metric measurement system.

I use both the imperial and the Metric sytem ,I was taught Imperial at school ,when in High school during the mid to late 70"s we changed to Metric ,when I started my apprenticeship as a Fitter and Turner ,some of the engineering drawings were Imperial and some Metric ,it just became normal to work in both.

I was one of the people who bought Toms" DVD's .His DVD's are full of good information and are definitely worth looking at 
He is a very talented man and I am constantly referring to his DVD's to learn more of his methods .
I have been busy making some bases for my old 3600 Makita ,and have all but completed a circle cutter based on Toms" design all made from 1/2" (12.7 mm) hard acrylic.
I have also modified my Triton table and updated with a new fence 
Next will be a set of template guides .
Just wondering if the 165046-4 guide will fit my 3600 Makita router? I may have to purchase one to get the general arrangement so I can machine up other sizes.

Kev.


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## dovetail_65 (Jan 22, 2008)

I haven't read anything here that is offensive at all. Bob is a jokester and both harry and Bob throw jabs at each other all the time, it is in fun. I think Harry knows it possibly you have not been here long enough to get Bobs humor. Even if he is serious I still see nothing as offensive, just his opinion.


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## derek willis (Jan 21, 2009)

Your opinion.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

HI derek

I don't mean to be offensive 

Let's start over OK   my hand is out for you  welcome to the forum ..

If you take the chip off your should I will keep my hands in my pocket.. I promise  

=======




derek willis said:


> Bob, no need to be offensive.
> derek.


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## reuelt (Dec 29, 2008)

*Metric system is inferior*

I am from Austalia.
I understand both the imperial & the metric system. My opinion is that the imperial system is superior.

The metric system was 'invented' by the the revolutionaries in the French Revolution. They even tried a 10 hour clock.
The 10 hour clock failed. 
Having failed in TIME, some people now try to implement a stupid decimal system in SPACE.
What is 1/3 of 1 cm? 0.33333333333333 cm. It is NOT accurate!!!!
In the imperial system when ask what is one third of an inch we just say 1/3".
Exact and accurate.

12 is a beautiful number. It is divisible by 2,3,4. That's why there is 12" to a foot.

In the metric system 10 is only divisible by 2 & 5. Have you ever cut your pizza into 5? You will need a protractor. But it is easy to cut into 2, 4, 8, 16, 32 WITHOUT a protractor.
That's why the imperial system use 1/2", 1/4", 1/8", 1/16", 1/32". And material thickness are made that way.

Do the French pack their wine in a box of 5? 3 x 4 = 12 is best way to pack your coke or wine bottles. 1 dozen is stable in a box.

Even if we adobt the metric size in routing we should use bit size like 32mm, 16mm, 12mm, 8mm, 6mm, 3mm, 2mm. Materials (metal, plastic & wood etc.) can be purchased in 2mm or 3mm & multiples of that.

Not 40mm!!


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## template tom (Sep 18, 2004)

reuelt said:


> I am from Austalia.
> I understand both the imperial & the metric system. My opinion is that the imperial system is superior.
> 
> The metric system was 'invented' by the the revolutionaries in the French Revolution. They even tried a 10 hour clock.
> ...


Reuelt
I was brought up with the Imperial measurements and in all that time I never once would have used a 1/3" as there was no provision for it on the rules in that time. 1/64" 1/32" 1/16" 1/8" 1/4" 1/2" 3/4" then of course all the 1/16" in between.

I think we are loosing the plot here as we are supposed to be talking about routing and the preference to Metric or imperial. Each person has the right to choose what system they want to use. I would find it difficult to write my material in imperial now as I personally find it easier to do my conversions in metric. 

I am pleased to report I do have all the cutters sizes you have described above "not 40mm". If they are available I am not too sure, but I have never had any need to purchase one that large for any of the projects I have produced. Just had a quick look in my catalogue of cutters and there they are 1.5/8" 41.3mm, 1.3/4" 44.3mm, 1.7/8" 47.6mm, 2" 50.8mm not that I would even like to use such a large cutter in the hand held router.

Yesterday I conducted another router workshop and I introduced the making of the templates which seem to put people off details of course were supplied in metric as it would have been impossible for me to suggest imperial measurements even though there were at least three members who would have been brought up using the imperial system.

Tom


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

"Have you ever cut your pizza into 5? You will need a protractor."

I don't see a problem here, simply make sure that whoever cuts it knows that he/she will be the last to choose a piece!
In view of so many previous posts of mine on the subject of metric/imperial I shan't stir things up at this point in time (I'll leave that for another day), sufficient to say use what you are comfortable with. I do however realise that not everyone has been able to grasp the metric system.


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## dovetail_65 (Jan 22, 2008)

harrysin said:


> "Have you ever cut your pizza into 5? You will need a protractor."
> 
> I don't see a problem here, simply make sure that whoever cuts it knows that he/she will be the last to choose a piece!
> In view of so many previous posts of mine on the subject of metric/imperial I shan't stir things up at this point in time (I'll leave that for another day), sufficient to say use what you are comfortable with. I do however realize that not everyone has been able to grasp the metric system.


That is strange the metric system is simpler by a factor of 10. Anyone that uses a library should know the Dewey Decimal system and using money is darn close to the same theory. All the terms are based on 10, how much simpler can it be.

It is not the system we can not grasp here in the US it is just we like the imperial system for traditional reasons.

That is a clever way of stating we here in America are not very smart. But Harry I will not credit you with such a subtle, and deviously worded statement implying we here in America can not grasp a simple basic idea. I know you are a nice guy and would never do that. 



PS that is a joke for you who do not have a sense of humor.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Of course I wouldn't Nick, there are heaps of people here in Australia who have taken years to understand the metric money system let alone how long a piece of timber 2400mm is. Timber is measured in mm rather than cm or metres, it's a matter of visualising certain measurements like a 35mm film, most of us know what that looks like therefore visualising a 40mm template guide is easy. we all knew what a yard looked like and 3" more makes it easy to visualise a metre. So breaking down the 2400mm becomes 240cm which becomes 2.4 metres.
This explanation isn't of course for you Nick but for those who would like to try to understand the metric system as we use it in our hobby of wood working.


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## dovetail_65 (Jan 22, 2008)

I still find myself sometimes translating mm into inches in my head. It is hard to tell my son or someone here oh about 25 mm. I have to tell them oh about an inch. 

This keeps me translating in my head because most here do not visualize in mm. I am stuck in that train of thought most of the time. It really is better to just think in mm, but I find I can't if I want to communicate with anyone about measurements around here. All my Festool are in mm for depth adjustment and such so I will have to continue to be a user of both.

I am trying to make a new design in only metric from plans to measuring while I work, I will let you know how it goes.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

HI Harry

You crack me up 

" Have you ever cut your pizza into 5? "
hahahahahahahahahahahahaha LOL LOL 

O I know, 3 for me and 2 for you (the wife/ boss )  

hahahahahahahaha LOL 

======








harrysin said:


> "Have you ever cut your pizza into 5? You will need a protractor."
> 
> I don't see a problem here, simply make sure that whoever cuts it knows that he/she will be the last to choose a piece!
> In view of so many previous posts of mine on the subject of metric/imperial I shan't stir things up at this point in time (I'll leave that for another day), sufficient to say use what you are comfortable with. I do however realise that not everyone has been able to grasp the metric system.


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## reuelt (Dec 29, 2008)

*Has Australia gone metric?*

We are supposed to have gone metric in Australia. But why are Router collets in Australia is still only in 1/2" or 1/4". They call them 12.7mm & 6.3mm collets.
See how metric is always inaccurate & approximations? 1/4" is not 6.3 but closer to 6.35mm. Cabatec had some routers with true 12.0 mm collets. They could not sell them and the routers had to be disposed off at a loss at only AUD$49.50 each.

Wood batten is often 3" x 4". The simply change the name to call it 75mm x 100mm. 
Now 1" should be 25.4mm not 25.0mm!
3/4" thick plywood is actually 3/4" minus 1/32" reserved for thickness of say 1/32" laminate. They simply measure it and call it 18.2mm!!

When we cut a tendon/mortise we use 1/3 as standard. So for a 3" thick wood will cut/route 1" tendons & mortises. For 1-1/2" thick wood we use 1/2" tendons & mortises. Simple.

In metric, they sell 13mm bit. 3x 13mm is 39mm. That is where the STUPID 40mm come in. Again metric system is NOT accurate. 40/3 = 13.33333333333333333...NOT 13mm.

You get to buy 3mm thick material, and 1.6mm material but never 1.5mm materials in Australia. Why? Is 1/2 of 3mm = 1.6mm? No. The materials are actually 1/8" (about 3.15mm often mislabelled 3mm) and 1/16" (labelled 1.6mm).


In the physical world, we often divide/multiple things by 2. 
Computers are 4 bits, 8bits, 16bits, 32bits and 64bits. Have you seen a 10bits computer? For decimal (metric) we need a floating point processor to create "approximations".

Hence the metric system is really more suitable for "non physical things" like money. NOT time or space created by God.

"Professing to be wise, they became fools".


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## template tom (Sep 18, 2004)

reuelt said:


> We are supposed to have gone metric in Australia. But why are Router collets in Australia is still only in 1/2" or 1/4". They call them 12.7mm & 6.3mm collets.
> See how metric is always inaccurate & approximations?
> 
> In metric, they sell 13mm bit. 3x 13mm is 39mm. That is where the STUPID 40mm come in. Again metric system is NOT accurate. 40/3 = 13.33333333333333333...NOT 13mm.
> ...


reuelt
*"See how metric is always inaccurate & approximations?" *

We are looking at using the metric system when using the router therefore let's keep it there. I am convinced you are taking it out of context.

I will answer your posting with an example of using the metric system to complete a routing project that I was demonstrating on Saturday at a routing workshop where I had six members in the group who were quite new to routing (by their own admission). They had come to my class to experience new routing techniques.

I was demonstrating how to produce an Elliptical shaped trinket box where the inside was cut out with the aid of the *'40mm'* template guide with a *'19mm dish'* cutter. It was then necessary to rout the external edge of the box to leave a wall thickness of 10mm. Others may, and on numerous occasions have said "cut it to shape with the band saw" then sand it to shape.

I produced an elliptical shape to fit neatly into the recess I had just made in the box. Again others would say "cut it with the band saw then sand it to shape". (one of the questions asked by one of the group who was just getting into woodwork "_What if you do not have a band saw"? _"Good question" I replied. Then to answer the lady's question.

With the same template used to rout out the base of the box cut an elliptical shape that would fit neatly into the base. I selected a 16mm template guide with a 5mm cutter and cut the shape in 12mm material a very neat fit was obtained. So I suppose you are going to put me into the category as a "fool" by your entry above.

That Elliptical shape was inserted in the base standing proud by about 10mm therefore packing was placed under it to elevate it above the top surface of the box. I was then able to rout the sides of the box to 10mm thick with the use of a 30mm guide and a 10mm cutter.

I did not have the time to go on to produce the lid which required a new template 5mm smaller all round (or I had to find a larger template guide) go through the same procedure to rout the underside of the lid. I would also require a new insert to fit into the recess using the same template guide / cutter combination 16mm/5mm.

I also wanted to rout a small 2mm rebate on the underside of the lid that would fit neatly into the base. I selected a 22mm guide with a 12mm cutter and routed down the 2mm. Then when I wanted to rout the shape of the lid to be exactly the same size as the base I selected the *40mm* guide with a 10mm cutter. Result a perfect fit.

*"Hence the metric system is really more suitable for "non physical things" like money."*
reuelt
What I have presented surely indicates that 'When using the router' we can achieve suitable physical things

Lets keep the discussion on the use of the metric/imperial measurement to routing.

Tom


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

If anyone can't follow the above explanation take a peep in my gallery pages 144,145 and 146 are shots taken from a photo shoot I did whilst making three of these elliptical trinket boxes a couple of years ago.


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## reuelt (Dec 29, 2008)

harrysin said:


> If anyone can't follow the above explanation take a peep in my gallery pages 144,145 and 146 are shots taken from a photo shoot I did whilst making three of these elliptical trinket boxes a couple of years ago.


Hi Harry

Of course you can make anything even using your own thumb-width as the standard unit.
That is not the point.
The point is the "decimal" system is an inaccurate inferior system as far as woodworking is concerned.

By the way, I have a Routing Magazine Augest/September 2000 I bought for $10.94 in year 2000.
It has everything that Template Tom is trying to promote. His ideas are nothing new to me. Even his jig system must have been adapted/copied from the "JKB Omnijig" or the "JKB Omni-jig Pro" idea. Because Jeremy Broun already legally copyright the concept in 1998.

Sorry if I upset you.

There is nothing wrong with the Imperial template guides. There are in fact easier to use.
e.g. Put a 1/2 bit in a 3/4" template guide bushing. Displacement is 1/2 of 1/4 = 1/8". Just nice if I want to glue a 1/8" plywood on the 1/8" rabbet.

Put a 1/4" bit in a 1/2" Guide bushing. Displacement is again 1/8". Simple and clear.

It only become complicated when you put in a 40mm guiide bushing and still continue using 1/4" or 1/2" router bits.

With a 40mm guide bushing, you can cut elipse. So what. I believe you can EVEN ROUTE a Contrabase shape. But the lie is you didn't say you cannot route a voilin shape with it.


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## template tom (Sep 18, 2004)

reuelt said:


> Hi Harry
> 
> Of course you can make anything even using your own thumb-width as the standard unit.
> That is not the point.
> ...


reuelt: To rout an elliptical shape you require an elliptical cutting jig or an elliptical template. In the second instance you can use any size template guide you care to mention imperial or metric to rout the elliptical shape you wish to produce. 

Obviously you are not really familiar with the template guide/cutter method if you are using the suggestions you have submitted above there is more to just putting a 1/8" piece of plywood in a 1/8" rebate.

As I said this will be the last reply to any of your postings on the forum unless you give me the opportunity to respond to the article you referred to that I copied.

My apology to all the other user of the router who contribute their projects here for the length of this reply.

Tom


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

I'm certainly not upset, rather, I'm extremely amused, perhaps this gentleman will post some projects that have been produced with template guides, the reason that I'm so knowledgeable is because I have an open mind that even at age 75 soaks up knowledge that is presented in a convincing way.


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

reuelt said:


> I am from Austalia.
> I understand both the imperial & the metric system. My opinion is that the imperial system is superior.
> 
> The metric system was 'invented' by the the revolutionaries in the French Revolution. They even tried a 10 hour clock.
> ...


Reuel,
By your reasoning we should be using a base 60 numbeirng system. The ancients who divided the hour into 60 minutes and the minute into 60 seconds had it right. 60 is divisible by 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 10, 15, 20 and 30. 

The metric system is an invention of the French in the 1790's but I just found this interesting item:

"1790 Thomas Jefferson proposed a decimal based measurement system for the USA. A subsequent vote in the USA congress to replace the current UK-based system by a metric system was lost by only one vote."

How close we came!

Among other things, BobJ3, it could not have "been in 1776 when we kicked most of that metric junk out with many of the other things you guys do" 

Derek: 
"REPEATED, REPEATED,REPEATED,
Here in the U/K metric measurement is the best thing that happened to calculations, made setting out large buildings so much easier.
Derek
Here in the U/K metric measurement is the best thing that happened to calculations, made setting out large buildings so much easier.
Derek
Here in the U/K metric measurement is the best thing that happened to calculations, made setting out large buildings so much easier.
Derek

Here in the U/K metric measurement is the best thing that happened to calculations, made setting out large buildings so much easier."

Derek

I fully agree with you.

Now for some woodworking: I tend to draw out my plans in metric because offsets and distances are are much easier to do in one's head (In spite of Harry's recent statement about my youth and inexperience I am old enough that still do math in my head). On the other hand, paper is measured here in inches; our letter sized paper is 8 1/2 in by 11 in. I tend to use points and picas for paper layout. points and picas are based on imperial measurements, established by typographers.


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## dovetail_65 (Jan 22, 2008)

We do have quite a bit more buildings and bigger buildings and a lot of better buildings here in the US than in most countries so I think laying them out in the imperial system has worked out pretty well for us.


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

nickao65 said:


> We do have quite a bit more buildings and bigger buildings and a lot of better buildings here in the US than in most countries so I think laying them out in the imperial system has worked out pretty well for us.


Nick, you are absolutely right. It is much more important the care, accuracy and precison with which a project is carried out than is the system of measurements used to plan and carry out the project.

However, the tallest building in the world is in the United Arab Emirates and I beieve it was planned and built using the Systeme International" (metric system)


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Better late than never Tom, I thought you had deserted us!


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## derek willis (Jan 21, 2009)

Really getting into this now aren't we!!!!!!
Derek.


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## Lemuzz (Jul 25, 2008)

I am an engineer who grew up with the imperial system and changed to Metric so am very familiar with both systems. While I agree measurement is just a number there is no doubt at all that metrics are much easier to work with. Reuelt should try this. What is .01 of a mm? Then What is .01 of an inch? then .001 and .0001. The metric system couldn't be simpler Customers of mine still (after 30 years of being "metricated") bring in imperial measurements which for ease of use we convert to metric. Also try pricing a metric bearing and a similar sized imperial bearing. There isa vast difference in price. This because 90% of bearings are made in metric sizes. Lastly, we are born with 10 fingers. If it was intended we use the imperial system we would have 12


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## dovetail_65 (Jan 22, 2008)

Well I do not know if I buy your rational, but base 10 may be simpler. Then again in computers base 10 stinks and base 16 is best and we do not have 16 fingers either.

As far as woodworking goes the best system is the system the craftsman is most comfortable with.


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## Lemuzz (Jul 25, 2008)

Thats what I said. Measurement is just a number. 10 is easier without a calculator.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Guys

I have heard so many carpenters say that's one and two little marks..now if you would say that's 10 mm and two little marks, the house would not be plumb...or square...I can almost hear him say on what side of the ruler ? ? ? ? ? top or bottom...so I would say just let things be... 




======




Lemuzz said:


> Thats what I said. Measurement is just a number. 10 is easier without a calculator.


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## istracpsboss (Sep 14, 2008)

mftha said:


> Reuel,
> On the other hand, paper is measured here in inches; our letter sized paper is 8 1/2 in by 11 in.


Imperial paper sizes are no longer used in the rest of the world, which has rationalised on the ISO 216 DIN 'A' system.
A0 is twice A1 (A0 is one square metre)
A1 is twice A2
A2 is twice A3
A3 is twice A4, the most commonly used letter size
A4 is twice A5
A5 is twice A6 postcards and microfiches

These all relate to the size of the original reel of paper as manufactured and minimise wasteage, as well as being easier for reproduction. You can, for example, reduce a page of A3 onto a page of A4 in a photocopier or reduce two pages of A4 onto a single page of A4, still maintaining the aspect ratio.

The USA and Canada are the only two countries in the world that have mysteriously clung to the old system, which stems from the days of manual paper making. Apparently, the 11" dimension was about a quarter of the average maximum stretch of an experienced vatman's arms.

Cheers

Peter


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## istracpsboss (Sep 14, 2008)

reuelt said:


> There is nothing wrong with the Imperial template guides. There are in fact easier to use.
> e.g. Put a 1/2 bit in a 3/4" template guide bushing. Displacement is 1/2 of 1/4 = 1/8". Just nice if I want to glue a 1/8" plywood on the 1/8" rabbet.
> 
> Put a 1/4" bit in a 1/2" Guide bushing. Displacement is again 1/8". Simple and clear.
> ...


Imperial becomes complicated if you have a cutter that has been resharpened and is no longer the original size.

40mm (now 39mm) minus 10mm you can do in your head
now try
2" (now 1 63/64") minus 3/8"

Imperial is easy enough if you only have to work with 1/8, 1/4. 1/2 etc., but once you get into the 32nds and 64ths it is nowhere near as easy.

For engineering work I use decimal inch and metric, depending on how old the drawings are, as fractional inches are not accurate enough.

As an aside, and really getting off routing, now. I was looking at some original works drawings of a wartime German locomotive. Naturally, it was in metric, but I was surprised to find certain screw threads that were Whitworth, as the thread form is stronger than the metric equivalent and the application benefitted from it.

Cheers


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Peter, some of the posted claims for the Imperial system have left me dumbfounded. I expected the elegant way you and and some other members have presented the case for the metric system would have convinced the biggest sceptic.


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## reuelt (Dec 29, 2008)

istracpsboss said:


> Imperial is easy enough if you only have to work with 1/8, 1/4. 1/2 etc., but once you get into the 32nds and 64ths it is nowhere near as easy.
> 
> 
> Cheers


Fractional system means precision. It trains good character - makes a person honest & truthful.
NOT approximations (rounding up & down) as in the metric system.

A former Boss of mine refused to recruit anyone who say they can ONLY use an easier Macintosh but not a PC.
His reason: the candidate must be less intelligent.

Shouldn't we doubt the intelligence & honesty of people who ardently push the inferior metric system?

"a miss is as good as a mile"

Missed Heaven by 0.3mm means you are in HELL.
Don't believe an "almost true" God.

Reuel


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

I suppose everyone is entitled to their opinion whether it be right or wrong. I just took a peep at your profile and noticed that you haven't made any friends yet Reuel!


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## reuelt (Dec 29, 2008)

*Paper size is NOT decimal system*



istracpsboss said:


> Imperial paper sizes are no longer used in the rest of the world, which has rationalised on the ISO 216 DIN 'A' system.
> A0 is twice A1 (A0 is one square metre)
> A1 is twice A2
> A2 is twice A3
> ...


Paper size is NOT decimal system (it is a German DIN system)
Nobody makes paper by cutting into 5 or 10.
A1 ½ of A0
A2 ½ of A1 ¼ of A0
A3	½ of A2 ¼ of A1	1/8 of A0
A4 ½ of A3	¼ of A2	1/16 of A1 1/32 of A0
A5 ½ of A4	¼ of A3	1/16 of A2 1/32 of A1 1/64 of A0
Even shows the merits of the imperial fractional system

In USA, letter size paper is 1/4 of Broadsheet 
By the way, Letter Size is 8-1/2" by 11". Just nice for a Computer line printer. 85 (1/10") columns x 66 (1/6") lines.
Usually 80 columns x 60 lines are printed.
In landscape mode the letter paper is equivalent to 110 (1/10") columns x 51 (1/6") lines

A4 paper is NOT even suitable for a Computer line printer printing. 


Reuel


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## dovetail_65 (Jan 22, 2008)

Well Harrysin I asked him to be my friend he just has not responded yet so whatever you are implying is lost on me.


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## Lemuzz (Jul 25, 2008)

bobj3 said:


> Hi derek
> 
> It must have been in 1776 when we kicked most of that metric junk out with many of the other things you guys do,,,you guys do many things backwards like drive on the wrong side of the road...and you go from place to place telling every one it should be done this way and some like the USA just say No...take your tea and metric system and take it home with you... thank you very much..
> 
> ...


This is getting off the point but seems an appropriate reply to make





Siamese twins walk into a pub in Brisbane and park themselves on a bar stool. 

One of them says to the barman, 'Don't mind us, we're Joined at the hip. I'm Joe, he's Jim, we'll have two XXXX Draught beers please' 

The barman, feeling slightly awkward, tries to make polite conversation while pouring the beers. 

'Been on holiday yet, boys?' 

'Off to America next month,' says Joe. 'We go to the States every year and hire a car and drive for miles, don't we, Jim?' 

Jim agrees. 

'Ah, America , 'says the barman.' Wonderful country... 
The history, the beer, the culture...' 

'Nah, we don't like that US crap,' says Joe. 

'Meat Pies & XXXX beer, that's us, hey Jim? 

'We can't stand the Yanks - they're arrogant, rude & egotistical.' 

'So why keep going to America ?' asks the barman. 

Joe replies, 'It's the only chance Jim gets to drive.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

reuelt said:


> Paper size is NOT decimal system (it is a German DIN system)
> Nobody makes paper by cutting into 5 or 10.
> A1 ½ of A0
> A2 ½ of A1 ¼ of A0
> ...


In all my years in the electronics industry, repairing mainly Japanese equipment, all threads were metric and in all my years in woodworking, I worked with wood not paper so I don't see the relevance of your post on a router forum.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

nickao65 said:


> Well Harrysin I asked him to be my friend he just has not responded yet so whatever you are implying is lost on me.


Need I say more, draw whatever conclusions you wish Nick.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Very funny Murray and makes sense to me.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

In defence of Imperial and metric. I grew up with imperial measure. It is so ingrained that I can imagine one foot with no problem. I can guestimate whether something looks right or not. I guestimate in imperial and try to convert to metric and it doesn't work. I guess I'll just have to keep using imperial and leave metric to the next generation.


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

reuelt said:


> Fractional system means precision. It trains good character - makes a person honest & truthful.
> NOT approximations (rounding up & down) as in the metric system.
> 
> A former Boss of mine refused to recruit anyone who say they can ONLY use an easier Macintosh but not a PC.
> ...



Where is your former Boss today?

I gave up using PC's over 20 years ago because they did not have the capabilitieis of the Mac's that were available then. It is very true that mac's are inherently easier to use than PC's. With a Mac, take it out of the box, and in 30 minutes you are able to do 90% of everything you would ever need to do (exception: web page design). I long ago came to the conclusion that if one wanted to get something done with a computer, beyond the basic word processing, email, etc, get a Mac. If one wanted to spend their time trying to get the computer to do something useful, get a PC. Granted, Macs are more expensive than base PCs but comparably equipped PCs are more expensive than Macs. If companies went to entirely Mac's, their IT departments could be cut to 1/4 or less. It is true that there is some software that runs only on PC's, but the current Mac operating system has a way to run Windows applicaitions. The only use I have for Windows applicaitions are those that come packaged with equipment, and do not include Mac versions. I have not verified this observation myself, but supposedly Windows applications run faster and more stably on Macs than on PC!.

All my woodworking plans are first drawn out on a Mac. I can use a PC but the current Windows Vista, in all its versions is a better subject for study by entomologists than use in a computer.

How does preference for the metric system over Imperial imply anything about the intelligence and honesty about a person?

To me it comes down to how I choose to spend my time; one could argue that because Macs are easier to use, they are the more intelligent choice. Likewise with the Systeme Inernationale vs. Imperial.

In the end it is the individual who decides and should decide what is easier and more efficient for them. There are people who use and prefer Linux in its various incarnations; there may be people who prefer base 16 measuring systems. Ust for fun, I am trying to devise a base 60 measurement system. As long as what one wants to do can get done it really does not matter what computer they use or what system of measurements they use.


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## reuelt (Dec 29, 2008)

Where is your former Boss today?

He is still the CIO (highest IT man) in a State Education Department.

Reuel


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

mftha said:


> Ust for fun, I am trying to devise a base 60 measurement system.


a-z, A-Z, 0-7


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## reuelt (Dec 29, 2008)

*Fractinal Calipers are available*

For those not so used to the traditional inch & factional system just buy a 
fractional digital calipers from e.g.

http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=18651


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## reuelt (Dec 29, 2008)

harrysin said:


> In all my years in the electronics industry, repairing mainly Japanese equipment, all threads were metric and in all my years in woodworking, I worked with wood not paper so I don't see the relevance of your post on a router forum.


Harry,
I was just replying to Peter who mentioned ISO paper sizes which I agree has no relevance to woodworking. Metric stds & ISO Standards are legal in USA. Just because USA gives "freedom of choice" does not mean that we have to be "anti-american" in everything.

But Plywood, chipboard , MDF even timber are made & usually cut into 2, 4, 8, 16.


I use metric screws too. But some are not available even at Bunnings. e.g. 6mm with countersunk head.
I solve my problem by just dieing 1/4" screws available with 6mm die.

I am only against "metric exclusively" not the use of the metric system.

The EU have allowed UK to used imperial units indefinetely as long as metric units are also displayed. Originally 2009 was the deadline to ban all other units. "Metric or we gullotine your head" is dictatorship that shoud be condemned.

I did reply "yes" to invitations for friendship but for some reason, the forum did not register my "YES" replies. maybe it timeout too fast.


Best regards

Reuel


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

allthunbs said:


> In defence of Imperial and metric. I grew up with imperial measure. It is so ingrained that I can imagine one foot with no problem. I can guestimate whether something looks right or not. I guestimate in imperial and try to convert to metric and it doesn't work. I guess I'll just have to keep using imperial and leave metric to the next generation.


I reckon it's like learning a foreign language, for quite some time you translate each word in your head, but I'm assured by my multilingual friends that there comes a time when you no longer need to do this translation, you just understand the words as they are spoken.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

"But Plywood, chipboard , MDF even timber are made & usually cut into 2, 4, 8, 16.


I use metric screws too. But some are not available even at Bunnings. e.g. 6mm with countersunk head.
I solve my problem by just dieing 1/4" screws available with 6mm die.

I am only against "metric exclusively" not the use of the metric system."

Reuelt, we're becoming dangerously close to agreeing with each other, I have NEVER been exclusively metric, in fact a number of my posted projects used a combination of metric and Imperial guides/cutters in order to achieve an exact size such as for a lid to be a push fit into a box.
Regarding panel sizes, no longer can you buy a 4' x 8' sheet, it's 1200 x 2400mm which can also be cut into 2, 4, 6, 8 or 16 EXACTLY.
Metric screws, Bunnings also don't sell lathes, metal or wood, for such things we go to specialist shops, for screws we have Blackwoods which probably have eastern states branches but in spite of that I do occasionally run a Whitworth tap/die to achieve an immediate result.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

harrysin said:


> Reuelt, we're becoming dangerously close to agreeing with each other,


Heaven forbid. The rest of us learn too much when you two "discuss!" ;-)



harrysin said:


> Regarding panel sizes, no longer can you buy a 4' x 8' sheet, it's 1200 x 2400mm which can also be cut into 2, 4, 6, 8 or 16 EXACTLY.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

"I just picked up two pieces of 4'x8'x3/4" plywood this morning."

I don't know what you paid for that but here I reckon between $A60.00 and $A100.00


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

harrysin said:


> "I just picked up two pieces of 4'x8'x3/4" plywood this morning."
> 
> I don't know what you paid for that but here I reckon between $A60.00 and $A100.00


I picked up some skids this morning and the plywood was in the pile. They were freebies. Construction grade 4'x8'x3/4" is about $34 Cdn ($1 Cdn = $0.50 Au?) per sheet. 4'x8'x1/4" mahagony underlayment runs $14 Cdn per sheet. Prices fluctuate daily here and I can go to ten different vendors and get 10 different prices, some as much as 25% difference. Winter prices can be 50% of summer prices.

Imperial measure is still "de rigeur" here and it doesn't look to change anytime soon.

Allthunbs


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## reuelt (Dec 29, 2008)

*1g is NOLONGER a standard weight*

(a little hillarity)
1kg is 1000 of 1g

So to calibrate 1kg we will need 1000 pieces of Standard "1g" weights. 

How do you handle 1000 pieces of 1g to calibrate 1kg?
Funny hypothetical solution:-
In a "weightless" bag without dust plus you got to count 1000 many times to make sure of exact quantity but cannot add fingerprints or saliva and create errors?

The French recently realise the SI-llyness and now calls 1kg the Standard weight. 
1g is no longer a standard weight.

So now what is 1g? 1/1000th of a 1000g.

But it is probably safer to check your metric balance by putting a 1lb weight on, it should read 454.00g (=16 ounces) +- 0.02g error.

Reuel


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## Lemuzz (Jul 25, 2008)

NZ changed to the metric system firstly for currency in 1967 then for all the rest in about 1969. There was a lot of resistance at first but as time went on became generally accepted. The older generation in the main still think in imperial, the next in both, but the younger generation, only metrics. There are still industries here deal in imperial, due I suppose to those countries who still are imperial. Some wallboards are available in both sizes a 4X2 is not usually called a 100x50 Bolts are available in both metric and imperial weights and measures particularly in the grocery trade can be in both due to our trading with imp countries, area is mostly but not only hectares. The metric system was in the beginning well thought out as calculations are based on 10 ie. mm, cm, m, klms and grams kilograms tonnes etc and temperature based on freezing and boiling represented between 0 and 100 at sea level. The whole system "ties in" with each other. Future generations will see greater benefits than my generation as more countries change, which they must surely do. As for our American friends they wouldn't go to an English system of currency of pounds shilling and pence in favour of the decimal system they now enjoy. Let me tell them that the metric system will provide as many or more benefits. To those who state that either system "is not as accurate as the other". It depends on your level of skill and the level of accuracy needed. Firstly you have to measure accurately then need the machines to work to that measurement. In most practical cases 0.01mm or 0.0005 inches, are easily achievable using common tooling and measuring in the metal industry. Do we need more accuracy in every day life? Most of the world have adopted the metric system and there is no doubt the rest will in the future as well, or risk being left out on a limb.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Murray, if only I could have been so eloquent in my early posts perhaps everyone would have been convinced that metric is the way to go.


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## Ralph Barker (Dec 15, 2008)

We in the U.S. might believe you Kiwis and Aussies about the metric system if you didn't drive on the wrong side of the road.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Ralph Barker said:


> We in the U.S. might believe you Kiwis and Aussies about the metric system if you didn't drive on the wrong side of the road.


WARNING HISTORY INSERT

Actually, driving on the road is a direct derivative of medival knights. Most people in history have been right-handed. When you were riding your horse on a track and you met a knight coming from the other direction, you always passed on your sword hand side. Like that you could tell if the other guy was a friend or foe. That's why you do a salute with an open palm and right hand. It just naturally progressed that you would drive with your right hand visible to the other drivers.

Now, if you had gone to war with England, chances are that you would pass a law that says don't drive like the 'Brits. So, that means that all you Yanks (and Canuks too) are the ones that are actually driving on the wrong side.

It seems interesting that Canadian's drive on the same side of the road as the Yankees. We've never been at war with England. In fact, Canada has been invaded by the Yanks three times and we still drive on the same side of the road as they do. Hmmmm, social sciences study proposal here.

Allthunbs


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## levon (Sep 14, 2008)

harrysin said:


> Murray, if only I could have been so eloquent in my early posts perhaps everyone would have been convinced that metric is the way to go.


hello Harry/Electron,

it seems to me that it is perspective. if you agree with the post youre referring to it might be eloquent. to those members who disagree, its just a long, long (yawn) long long (yawn) post. and isnt it the purpose of the forum to agree and disagree in a civil manner without getting personal?


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

levon said:


> hello Harry/Electron,
> 
> it seems to me that it is perspective. if you agree with the post youre referring to it might be eloquent. to those members who disagree, its just a long, long (yawn) long long (yawn) post. and isnt it the purpose of the forum to agree and disagree in a civil manner without getting personal?


I would hope that your observation not be correct. Alas it may be so. 

However, when I percieve something that I disagree with, I have the option of going to another thread that provides more interest. I'm interested in a lot of things but this debate over metric vs US/Imperial/SAE measure is as boring as H-ll and it never seems to end. Cannot we just accept that others are allowed to do as they wish. After all, we've tried to overcome the colour of a man's (woman's) skin. Do we have to replace that discrimination with the marks on your ruler?

It is easy to see the differences. Doing so gives us a feeling of superiority - they're different - we're better because of it. What is harder is to notice that the wood we use is the same as that used by the next guy, the clothes we wear are the same (except where climate dictates otherwise,) we have and do many of the same things no matter where in the world we are. 

Look at us. We're scattered all over the world. Unfortunately, we don't include those that don't have internet access but with luck that will happen soon. We're black, white, pink, red, brown, yellow and every variation on those colours that you can immagine. We get along reasonably well for a bunch of opinionated old codgers with 2x4s stuck up our butts.

Maybe we can learn by our own example.

Allthunbs


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## levon (Sep 14, 2008)

i think we need to keep our posts short and to the point. i tend to go to sleep by these long posts. i think bobj tried to show this.


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## levon (Sep 14, 2008)

btw, i was talking to Harry, no one else!


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## levon (Sep 14, 2008)

Harry, from a southern gentlemen, i apologize for anything i said that could have offended you. i admit i was upset. not at you but i think as a side effect i was lashing out and am truly sorry if i offended you , hurt your feelings or anything. i said it and i meant it, i respect you and am in awe of your talent. Bobj likes to tease you but he knows youre a very talented person. i hope you can forgive me for acting like a child. but i still think the metric system is awful. lol i am trying to lighten up. im teasing you.


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## Lemuzz (Jul 25, 2008)

levon said:


> Harry, from a southern gentlemen, i apologize for anything i said that could have offended you. i admit i was upset. not at you but i think as a side effect i was lashing out and am truly sorry if i offended you , hurt your feelings or anything. i said it and i meant it, i respect you and am in awe of your talent. Bobj likes to tease you but he knows youre a very talented person. i hope you can forgive me for acting like a child. but i still think the metric system is awful. lol i am trying to lighten up. im teasing you.


Don't take offence to anything I said either Levon. We both have our beliefs and in our own situations are both correct. The important thing is we agree to disagree  I like your new Photo Profile tho. Did you have it taken on holiday?


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## levon (Sep 14, 2008)

Lemuzz said:


> Don't take offence to anything I said either Levon. We both have our beliefs and in our own situations are both correct. The important thing is we agree to disagree I like your new Photo Profile tho. Did you have it taken on holiday?


i took the hint form another forum member like my brown suit?


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## Lemuzz (Jul 25, 2008)

lol


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Anybody else feel the need to express themselves? The plain and simple truth of the matter is there are two systems of measurement in use, and we all have to learn to live with them. It is also a fact that Metric bits and guide bushings are not readily available in North America. That is beginning to change, but since companies that manufacture them do not even respond to emails requesting their products I am not holding my breath. It has all been said so I think this thread is finally done. Anybody who can present new information is welcome to. Other than that you are just being petty. In the immortal words of Stan Lee: "Nuff said!"


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## Electron (May 22, 2008)

Ralph Barker said:


> We in the U.S. might believe you Kiwis and Aussies about the metric system if you didn't drive on the wrong side of the road.


Likewise, I would believe that Americans didn't understand and appreciate the metric system if you didn't use it for your monetary system!


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## Electron (May 22, 2008)

levon said:


> btw, i was talking to Harry, no one else!


On more than one occasion I've stated that I don't believe in using two words when 20 can be used. After all, how are we old farts supposed to spend out time!

By the way, I have only ever been offended by two members, neither lasted long on the forum. The strange thing is that after one of them had resigned we became quite good friends and correspond by email at least a couple of times a week.

Harry


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## Electron (May 22, 2008)

Last evening in the "guide bushing" thread I offered a FREE 40mm professionally made template guide suitable for the Makita 3600/3612/3612C to the first member to email me their street address, I'm a little surprised that no one has claimed it.
A PM to "electron" will send it on it's way.

Harry


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## template tom (Sep 18, 2004)

*Routing with Template Tom*

Well Mike maybe I should have the last word as I was the one who introduced the 40mm guide to the forum. You know what, *I don't care what size of guides you may wish to use, metric or imperial* as long as you try and get more from your router with the aid of guides no matter what size they are. You will notice I have not been submitting many posts lately. I have no intention in getting into all the bickering that goes on re Metric and imperial. I admitted recently that I had been using a great number of imperial cutters from my Carb-I-Tool catalogue. The 40mm guide has been taken out of all context. Just use a big Guide and you can do more with your router you will also require all the smaller ones as well. All I ask is *Just Do it, Try it, do something, let us see your results* as I have still to see a project published recently on the forum where the guides have been used, (outside the table) as I am not familiar with their use in the table simply because I think they were designed to be used in the plunge mode. MHOP

To those who may be new to the forum, and may be wondering where this is going to lead to, I had submitted an article* "Introduction to the use of the template Guides"* which is still there for anyone to download to try new routing techniques. I reiterate it is only an introduction to the use of the guides and is not really limited to what is presented in the article. 

It is a method working with the guides to produce some articles in a safer manner. It is techniques I developed over 25 years ago (contrary to what some may be saying) It was not copied from anyone else as there was nothing available on the market at the time to copy from.

A number of years ago I did coach someone in Russia how to use the guides and this was done by email. That person wanted to make the elliptical boxes I had designed, not so much the box design but the method I had developed to produce it with* greater safety awareness.*

Should there be any interest in producing an object with the aid of the guides I am willing to do what I did those years ago. It is too bulky to submit by posting to a thread therefore would have to be done by email I can walk you through each step then you can post your achievements as you go along.

Anyone interested?
Tom


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

*40mm guide vs 1 1/2-1 3/4"?*

Hi Tom:

Is the objective of your 40mm guides to allow clearance of the collet? If so, would the OakPark 1 1/2" bore (1 3/4" flange) provide the same benefits as your 40mm? There are only Oak Park and Lee Valley (that I'm aware of) that make this size.

Allthunbs


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## template tom (Sep 18, 2004)

*Routing with Template Tom*



allthunbs said:


> Hi Tom:
> 
> Is the objective of your 40mm guides to allow clearance of the collet? If so, would the OakPark 1 1/2" bore (1 3/4" flange) provide the same benefits as your 40mm? There are only Oak Park and Lee Valley (that I'm aware of) that make this size.
> 
> Allthunbs


There are a number of reasons for using such a large guide.
(1) A greater range of cutters can be used
(2) Most cutters are visible when in use
(3) There is less chance of the cutter overheating during the process as there is little to no build-up of material round the cutter.
(4) And yes a very important reason is the collet will penetrate though the guide to give the depth required especially when using 1/2" (6.35) cutters

I had another reason why but it escapes my memory (senior moment)

All this is included in the 'Sticky' "Introduction to the use of template guides"

extra. When using a 40mm guide / cutter combination will require the construction of one template to be produced then to remove the second cut with a 30mm guide / cutter combination and then a 16mm guide / cutter combination for a third process of the project. This was explained in the 'Introduction to the use of template guides'
Tom


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## Electron (May 22, 2008)

Re- the free 40mm template guide offered, the first to claim it has been notified that on Monday it will start it's journey to Colorado, USA

I have advised all others that it has been claimed.

I must again remind members that there is nothing magical about the 40mm guide other than it's nice and big and VERY EASY TO DESIGN templates for especially when combined with metric cutters.


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## Dr.Zook (Sep 10, 2004)

Hey Electron I wood have taken the guide BUT I'm sure you wood have expected me to use it, so there!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Electron (May 22, 2008)

How right you are Dave, as soon as your weather warms up, I'm expecting great things from you. Recent members probably think that you know nothing about wood or metalworking, how wrong they are!


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

How right you are Harry

We called them sleepers back when I was into cars,,, little ruff on the out side but when it came up to the line look out, they would blow you away every time..it was ways hard to find out what they had under the hood because they just didn't blow they own horn most of the time.. or let any one look under the hood  that sounds like Dave...

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Electron said:


> How right you are Dave, as soon as your weather warms up, I'm expecting great things from you. Recent members probably think that you know nothing about wood or metalworking, how wrong they are!


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