# Is It Me Or The Bit Or Both?



## bendrum (Mar 21, 2014)

As a novice router user, I seek advice. I'm building a stave snare drum out of maple and today I milled the outside diameter on my home built table using my home built rotisserie jig. I'll add pics as well. I did four passes to remove 5/32" using a 3/4" straight bit from MLCS so it didn't seem to me that I was asking too much from the bit or the router and the bit was brand new and unused. In my first pass I was getting lots of swirls, slight burn marks and a fairly rough surface and I was running it at about 18,000rpm as recommended by the MLCS website. I adjusted my turning technique on the drum and tried to turn as steadily as I could and it got a little bit better but not great. In my third pass I switched over to the 1/2" mortising bit from my 15 piece bit set to give that a try since it has a deep gullet on the end of the tip. I got the same results and it took a little longer. In my final pass I switched back to the 3/4" straight bit and sped up the router to about 20k. I nailed my desired diameter accidentally so I could go no further but I got better results without any swirls or burns. By this time I was turning the drum nice and smooth and slow but I still had little nicks in the wood. I sanded using 150 grit then, unsatisfied, went down to 60 back to 150, 220 and 400 but the nicks are a little too deep to remove. As an added note, I knew that I would get some lines in the surface in the direction of the turning and would have to sand them down but the nicking was not really expected.

So my question is ; was it my speed (slower or faster), my technique (which got better as I went along), or would a higher quality Freud etc. bit prevent the nicking, or is it all just the nature of routing? Or is there anything else you could suggest?

In the pics, the last two show closeup what I'm talking about and this is after the sanding.

I look forward to hearing some replies from you guys who know. Thanks


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## Salty Dawg (Jan 24, 2014)

The other day I was making 2 doors with the rail & stile bits, on the 3rd stile I had chips all the way down one edge, no problems on the other 7 & just figured it was the grain in the wood, but I don't know, still new to using a router.


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## kywoodchopper (Jul 18, 2013)

Hi Ben, it's you. Just kidding. It could be since that is tiger maple may be causing part of the problem. It has cross graining which sometimes causes tear outs. I don't know if a different router bit would have helped. Is there any friends that have different brands of bits you could try? In your first photos you show a rod through the drum. Can you put the rod back in and spin the drum while you use a power sander to sand the spinning drum? I do admire your skills in making this drum. Very well done. Malcolm / Kentucky USA


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## wingwarp (Nov 22, 2008)

*Router Bit Tear Out*

I'm no expert when it comes to routers but you could be getting some bounce from your support rod that is holding your work. Is it a hollow rod or solid rod ? You might move the supports closer together somehow or get a much stronger support rod. All I am saying is this could be your problem.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Whilst I'm sure that the wood has a lot to do with it, when router planing for a first class finish I use a dish cutter as shown in the first shot or a bottom cleaning bit as shown in the second shot.


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

Hey Ben...

Not a expert on the matter by any stretch of the imagination, but I would think that since
you are introducing the bit at what amounts to an upward angle into the wood that you'll be more prone to tear out. The wood itself is no doubt an issue. Maple can be notorious for tear out. The use of a bit with a radius cutter such as the bowl bit mentioned might work well. I'd be willing to give a "downcut" spiral bit a go. Driving the cutting edge down into the wood using very light passes might solve the problem. At the very least it might give you a finish that you can sand smooth without alot of grief.


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## Quillman (Aug 16, 2010)

Intended or not your maple is figured.
No matter how you rout it or hit it with a knife you will have tearout.
Matters not what cutter. You're only cutting with the end grind, flute matters not.
Tho, solid carbide would be the most forgiving.
Great assembly and set up. Next time rough it out with your routers but leave at least an 1/8th for sanding. Abrasives are your only choice for tearout free surface.
****************
You will do the ID too? Won't the drum sound better with a uniformly thick wall?
Did some studies with a 14" snare. Wall thickness was critical. There is a company that makes laminated rings to spec. and they're pretty round. Can be done in any fancy hardwood too.


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## BCK (Feb 23, 2014)

I agree with quillman..maybe leave enough for sanding..can you setup a sander with the rotisserie jig..to take the last bit off???


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## bendrum (Mar 21, 2014)

Thanks all for the replies. This forum is such a great resource of knowledge and it doesn't always matter what you're making. As long as it's made of wood there's gonna be great, helpful answers. 

Don, It's good to know I'm not the only one.

Bill, the rod is a 3/4" steel tube from a cymbal stand and is quite solid so that shouldn't be an issue. I also eyeballed it for straightness and it is very straight otherwise I would've gone with something else.

Malcom, thank you for the info on tiger maple and thank you for the compliments and the laugh. This is my 1st attempt at this, other than my slightly egg shaped poplar "practice" piece that I've been butchering before I take the tools to the maple. I thought maybe the characteristics of the maple may be an issue but it looks so nice and I want to make it work. I could easily do the sanding on the rotisserie but I need a power sander to do so. I think that'll be my next purchase. This way I can leave a bit of material and sand to my desired OD.

Harry, thank you. I've read many of your posts and tutorials and it looks like you have a very simple solution. I will try your bit suggestions. May I ask what the logic is behind the dish cutter? Is it because it is more gentle with the rounded cutters? It would seem to make sense.

Bill, thank you. I thought about the possibilities of a spiral bit. I just didn't know if I should choose an upward or downward bit. You answered that for me. 

Pat, thank you. Your response is something I was afraid of. If this is the nature of the beast than you are absolutely right about leaving some extra material for sanding. I sense a belt sander in my future. Thanks for the compliment on the assembly and setup. I will definitely be doing the ID on the shell. That's my next step. I'm building the jigs as I go along so that one is my next project . The rotisserie here is made mostly of a "curbside" dresser and tv stand I picked up in my neighborhood. The 3/4" rod is from a cymbal stand and the bolts are ARP connecting rod bolts for a Ford 460ci engine while the washers are used for car suspension bushings. I still have plenty of pieces left to build my ID milling jig. 

Btw, I owe thanks and gratitude to the drum builders who have shared their methods on the internet. I don't think I could've done this without their generosity of sharing.


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## bendrum (Mar 21, 2014)

BC, Thank you. I agree with Quillman. too.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

I think one of the new members post may be correct in that the rod may be a little too lightweight. While the wood is prone to tearout, a heavier rod may help reduce it. 

Something else that occurs to me is that the wood that is directly in front of the bit is being removed at 90* to the grain (tangent to the rotation of the bit). Maybe if you raised one side of the rod so that only one corner of the bit was removing wood just to rough it out, that might help since the cutting action is more in line with the grain. It would require some modifications to your setup.


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## rwl7532 (Sep 8, 2011)

I have assembled a maple drum using virtually the same process.

I can upload my pictures when I get home.

My setup was held entirely by clamping so it can be broken down afterward and requires little storage.

I had no tear out and only used a 3/4" straight bit.
For my rod I used a threading rod so as it turned advancement was automatic.
The rod was at least 1/2" diameter, maybe more so no deflection due to weight.

As others have written, the wood being maple can cause tear out problems. Myself, I had no tear out. Running at high speed rather than lowered speed I believe helped.

The maple I had was somewhat figured.

I did end up using my bench mounted belt sander only because I had botched my attempts at the finish. I ended up using Watco and waxing.

The inside routed by a friend of mine after the outside was routed. The shell self-rotated on two ball bearing rollers. 

The drum making forum I'm a member of is ghostnote.net (since 2009). That's were I learned most of this.

Lastly, cut the staves with the grain running lengthwise. The glue joint will be stronger when not gluing endgrain to endgrain.


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## Quillman (Aug 16, 2010)

Cryptic for you.
You know Steve from Vashon?
Building a snare from scratch.


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## rwl7532 (Sep 8, 2011)

The photos.
The jig is 4 pieces of wood held by clamping.


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## BCK (Feb 23, 2014)

rwl7532 said:


> The photos.
> The jig is 4 pieces of wood held by clamping.


very nice


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## whimsofchaz (Jun 6, 2013)

I'm no expert either but I looked at the pictures and some of the tear out repeats which makes me wonder if the bit is bouncing at times ... each of the nicks are spaced equally also.. Worth looking at


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## bendrum (Mar 21, 2014)

Charles, thank you. It could be the rod but I think if you were to hold the rod in your hand you might change your mind. It's thick 3/4" tubing from a cymbal stand and is quite rigid otherwise I wouldn't have even considered it, however, my first choice would be using a 3'4" solid rod. But part of the fun is finding things I can repurpose around the house. And I just wanted to get this thing going. I also plan to upgrade to bearings for the rod but as it is, everything is a nice tight fit.

Ralph, Thank you and thanks for sharing your pictures. That's a beautiful drum! I can almost hear it just by looking at it. It must sound great. I had a feeling I'd hear from you on this. I was reading some comments on a Youtube video about milling a stave drum and I saw an avatar of a kid that looked familiar and remembered I had seen that same kid's avatar on this site.
So is that just a standard 1/2" straight bit that you used? What brand is the bit? It looks orange so would that be a CMT? I actually have another drum shell that I cut and glued the other night before I tackled milling this first one and I set up the second with a vertical grain and I'd like to find the best cutting combination before I start digging into that one. It's also maple figured with tiger and a bit of birds eye so if it's the nature of the figured maple as people have commented here I'll have to get a belt sander. I'd rather it just be the router bit. I tried horizontal first because it just seemed easier for me at the time to do my measures and cuts that way. I've seen them done this way, too, and figured what do I have to lose. I did read that glueing end grain to end grain is not the best choice. If it explodes I'll let you tell me "I told you so". I also wanted to see if I could notice any difference in sound between the two grain directions.

Thank you Chuck. That could be a possibility, too. Perhaps I should make sure my base is tight to the table every time I do a setup as well as everything else. I know the bit was tight though. Good suggestion.


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## bendrum (Mar 21, 2014)

I should also mention the direction that I turned the drum. The bit wanted to turn the drum in one direction. I went against that direction because it was easier to control the speed of the turning. Should I have gone in the direction the bit wanted to take it?


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

"Harry, thank you. I've read many of your posts and tutorials and it looks like you have a very simple solution. I will try your bit suggestions. May I ask what the logic is behind the dish cutter? Is it because it is more gentle with the rounded cutters? It would seem to make sense."
The leading edges of the bit approach the wood in a gentle fashion compared to the sharp "points" of a standard bit and because there is a wide flat bottom a better finish is achieved with less passes. The only possible downside is that the bottom of the bit must be absolutely parallel to the wood if planing a flat board, particularly with the bottom cleaning bit otherwise a tiny lip will be produced after each pass.


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## bendrum (Mar 21, 2014)

Thanks to all who participated in my thread and those who may add to this later. Your tips, pointers, observations and suggestions are so helpful. I've had fun reading many of your posts in other threads and I've learned quite a bit from many of you in a very short time. I'm glad I found routerforums.com. There's so much talent and experience here and the best part is you're all willing to share knowledge from experience. Thanks again.


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## rwl7532 (Sep 8, 2011)

The straight bit I used was from a cheap set I bought on e-Bay.
I turned the shell both directions since it was on threaded rod.


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## papasombre (Sep 22, 2011)

Hi, Ben.

Putting aside the problems you got during the execution, it looks to me that the fit up for all the staves was a time consuming job. It looks great. Thank for posting.


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## bendrum (Mar 21, 2014)

Hi Alexis, thank you for the compliment. I'm learning as I go along and all the time that is consumed is completely lost track of because I'm enjoying what I'm doing and I get to challenge my brain in a different way than I usually do playing drums. I did all of the staves on my RAS and, yes, the setup did take some time but when I'm immersed in the task an hour and a half can feel like 15 minutes so I don't really care how much time it takes as long as I don't run out of it.


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## bendrum (Mar 21, 2014)

Ok, I have a couple updates on this topic that I got lots of good help on from the forum community. First of all, I got a Freud 5/8" straight bit to mill the inside of the shell and got much better results so some of the problem could've been me but more of it was the bit. I finished the shell and was so happy and proud of myself for tackling such a task for the first time. I did my 45 deg chamfer on the bearing edges and did all my finish sanding and right after I did my 500 grit sanding I turned around and the drum rolled off my bench onto the concrete garage floor. So, Ralph, I'm letting you know that it broke but in this case it was from the 4' fall. So needless to say, I was deeply hurt emotionally by this accident but I won't let it stop me and I'm already tackling the next one. to stay on the positive side, I now have a cutaway model……. see next post with some comparisons of bits.


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## bendrum (Mar 21, 2014)

Ok, so my first question was "is it me or the bit or both?". This is in no way to bash MLCS by any means. I bought their 15 piece set and I'm still very glad I did as I'm new to routing. In the past couple months I've learned quite a few things with this tool that I've never used before and this MLCS set has served its purpose quite well. I've used all but maybe 2 bits in the set and I'm having fun with it. But when I posed my question to the community here I didn't know which, of many, factors could've caused the deep tear outs in the wood but one of those factors mentioned was the MLCS 3/4" straight bit which was brand new and unused. (they were very good about replacing a damaged bit in the set when I purchased it and were faster than Amazon). I'm on my second drum now and I Used that same bit for only the second time and this is the result I got. I also used my Freud 5/8" straight and a newly purchased Whiteside 3/4" bowl bit which was recommended by Harry. here are some side by side comparisons of my results. I still will NOT rule out user error but here's some pics in case someone may find this intriguing.

pics 1 and 2: Freud 5/8" straight on the left and MLCS 3/4" straight on the right

Pic 3: Whiteside 3/4" bowl bit

Pics 4 and 5: Whiteside bowl bit on the left and Freud straight on the right. 


I went to the Whiteside in the middle of my turning passes just to see how it would cut and I ended up going back to the Freud for my final pass as the bowl bit left deeper grooves in the wood than the Freud straight. So Harry, it was a great suggestion but it didn't work out for me at this moment in my experience. But it gave me an excuse to dive into some of the high end bits and see the difference for myself. And I still really like my MLCS bit set for what it is.


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## rwl7532 (Sep 8, 2011)

Your broken shell will glue back up easily.


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## rwl7532 (Sep 8, 2011)

rwl7532 said:


> Your broken shell will glue back up easily.


Uh Oh, Did it break on a seam?
If it did, you can reglue but a good glued joint would not break - it should be stronger than other portions of the shell.


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## bendrum (Mar 21, 2014)

rwl7532 said:


> Uh Oh, Did it break on a seam?
> If it did, you can reglue but a good glued joint would not break - it should be stronger than other portions of the shell.


No chance of a glue up on this one Ralph. I over sanded the edges while trying to remove the glue. Even though I thought I was being careful I still went to far and the seams line up badly now. Since my mishap I have another shell all done and I'm working on final finish. I did this shell with a vertical grain knowing well that this is the way to do it but for my first one it seemed simpler at the time to measure the board for horizontal grain or end grain to end grain. Maybe it's just as well that it broke in the garage floor rather than on a gig while showing off the drum that I built. 

As far as my original question goes, I have learned that a high quality bit makes the difference.


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## rwl7532 (Sep 8, 2011)

bendrum said:


> Maybe it's just as well that it broke in the garage floor rather than on a gig while showing off the drum that I built


That is so true!


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