# Making a round picture frame.



## hawkeye10 (Jul 28, 2015)

This is a trial fun so I won't mess up good wood. I have tried putting the eight pieces together with dowels (two per joint) but all that marking it's very hard to get all of them dead on. You know how mistakes mount up on projects. I don't have a biscuit jointer but I could do it on my router table. I also don't have a Festool Domino but I could do the same thing on the router table. I would appreciate any suggestions you might have.


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## difalkner (Jan 3, 2012)

Splines would probably be easier, Don. You can do blind splines if you don't want the spline showing on the outer rim. That will keep the octagon flat and then you just have to line up the outside.

I just did a 10 segment ring in Walnut and didn't use anything for alignment. But my little project will have no stress on it so I didn't need dowels or splines or biscuits.

David


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## tomp913 (Mar 7, 2014)

- Make the frame in two halves, four pieces per half, but don't drill the dowel holes in the end faces yet. Because you're not making a closed assembly, the joints will all be tight, assuming that they're doweled and clamped correctly.

- When the two halves are dry, use a straight edge to check across the end faces - they will either be slightly open or slightly closed.

- Take a piece of scrap plywood that's slightly wider than the half frame and cut two good, parallel faces on it - leave the fence in place after truing the second face. Clamp the half frame to the plywood so that the inner tips of the end faces (either at the outside or inside of the frame) just touch the face of the plywood and the triangular "error" is hanging over the edge of the plywood.

- Run the plywood with the half frame clamped to it through the saw and trim off the protruding ends. Repeat for the second half of the frame.

You now have two halves where the mating ends will fit up with zero gap - there may be a slight mis-match at the tips, doesn't matter because you'll trim that off when you cut the circle.. Drill the dowel holes in the mating ends and assemble. Now do your set-up and cut the circle. Works every time.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

splines or half-lap joinery...


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## hawkeye10 (Jul 28, 2015)

difalkner said:


> Splines would probably be easier, Don. You can do blind splines if you don't want the spline showing on the outer rim. That will keep the octagon flat and then you just have to line up the outside.
> 
> I just did a 10 segment ring in Walnut and didn't use anything for alignment. But my little project will have no stress on it so I didn't need dowels or splines or biscuits.
> 
> David


The frame will be round so I don't need the splines to show. David, are you saying you didn't reinforce your joints? Are your joints end grain joints? The joints on mine are end grain. I know there won't be any stress on the joints but I thought it needed some help. I know I could be wrong just asking.


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## tomp913 (Mar 7, 2014)

Although I would now use a biscuit joiner, I have used dowels in the past. The problem(?) with using a slotting cutter and splines is the runout of the cutter past the end of the spline. If the frame shown is the finished size, layout the circle on the face, take the slotting cutter and lay that on the face to see how much spline you have available once you allow for the runout - it may be that the spline is too short to be really effective. OTOH, you can take the spline and sand the radius of the cutter at each end (essentially making a biscuit) to get the maximum support in the available length, just a little more work. More than one way to skin a cat................


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## difalkner (Jan 3, 2012)

hawkeye10 said:


> The frame will be round so I don't need the splines to show. David, are you saying you didn't reinforce your joints? Are your joints end grain joints? The joints on mine are end grain. I know there won't be any stress on the joints but I thought it needed some help. I know I could be wrong just asking.


Yes sir, no reinforcement. But this is going to be a clock with an inset face so very little stress on the joints, if any. I'll cut a rebate about 1/2" wide and 5/16" deep on the inner portion to form a circle and that will hold the round clock face. I don't think it will come apart. It's about 10 1/2" across.









David


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

I've got a rough little box I put together probably 18-19 years ago from leftover wood. All end grain joints, held together with 100% Titebond II. You would have to use a hammer to take that thing apart. So I'd just glue it.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Whoa!


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## hawkeye10 (Jul 28, 2015)

difalkner said:


> Yes sir, no reinforcement. But this is going to be a clock with an inset face so very little stress on the joints, if any. I'll cut a rebate about 1/2" wide and 5/16" deep on the inner portion to form a circle and that will hold the round clock face. I don't think it will come apart. It's about 10 1/2" across.
> 
> View attachment 343250
> 
> ...


That is going to look nice David. Please post some pictures when you complete it.

I will do a test today and see how it does.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Lots of good suggestions here. I'm a spline fan, but like to make the splines a contrasting element. But I think glue and a band clamp will do the trick for this use. You might consider cutting a 3/16th groove all the way around the front or back surface, then bending a strip of wood and gluing it into the circular slot. Same effect as a spline for strength, but nice decorative look as well. I would make sure each segment was perfectly flat and the same thickness (joint, then plane) and maybe even put a flat piece of ply across the whole thing during glueup. Put wax paper between to deal with squeeze out. I assume you're going to redo this in hardwood. You might need to to steam the strip in order to bend it sufficiently.


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## difalkner (Jan 3, 2012)

That would be a cool look, Tom. But use parchment paper instead of wax paper. Glue soaks through and sticks to wax paper, doesn't on parchment paper at all. I've got 3 pieces I've been using for about a year and the glue just pops right off when it's dry.

David


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## hawkeye10 (Jul 28, 2015)

DesertRatTom said:


> Lots of good suggestions here. I'm a spline fan, but like to make the splines a contrasting element. But I think glue and a band clamp will do the trick for this use. You might consider cutting a 3/16th groove all the way around the front or back surface, then bending a strip of wood and gluing it into the circular slot. Same effect as a spline for strength, but nice decorative look as well. I would make sure each segment was perfectly flat and the same thickness (joint, then plane) and maybe even put a flat piece of ply across the whole thing during glueup. Put wax paper between to deal with squeeze out. I assume you're going to redo this in hardwood. You might need to to steam the strip in order to bend it sufficiently.


Yes Tom this is a trial run. Doing trials pay off.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

difalkner said:


> That would be a cool look, Tom. But use parchment paper instead of wax paper. Glue soaks through and sticks to wax paper, doesn't on parchment paper at all. I've got 3 pieces I've been using for about a year and the glue just pops right off when it's dry.
> 
> David


Thanks David, I'm going to get a roll for some frames in progress. I think you're talking about the parchment paper in rolls for cooking, such as lining baking pans? I've noticed the problem with wax paper, but didn't know your trick. BTW, David is my middle name, one meaning is "Lion of God." Not a bad handle if you ask me.

Tom


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

I don't used any splines or dowels on my clocks, there is no strain on them. Just plenty of titebond II with end grain gluing. I would think that for a picture frame the same would hold true.
Herb


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

DesertRatTom said:


> You might consider cutting a 3/16th groove all the way around the front or back surface, then bending a strip of wood and gluing it into the circular slot.


I'd worry about getting the groove accurate, and wouldn't want to cut one anyway. If I thought more than the glue was necessary, I would more likely cut a circle, with about 1/2" or so walls, out of 1/4" or 1/8" plywood or something, and glue that on to the back. I would try to keep it exactly centered, but wouldn't worry much if it were a tad off, it would be where no one would see it.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

JOAT said:


> I'd worry about getting the groove accurate, and wouldn't want to cut one anyway. If I thought more than the glue was necessary, I would more likely cut a circle, with about 1/2" or so walls, out of 1/4" or 1/8" plywood or something, and glue that on to the back. I would try to keep it exactly centered, but wouldn't worry much if it were a tad off, it would be where no one would see it.


You're going to cut it with a router and circle jig, so you just set the router half an inch or so shorter than the outside perimeter and cut the groove. I will be perfectly centered relative to the outside and inside circle cuts, just shallower. The fun part will be making the insert piece fit precisely if it goes on the front. However, I think your suggestion is good as well--put a back on it. It's a frequent solution I use for picture frames, in effect it makes a mitered lap joint and makes a simple rabbet to hold the painting. Very strong and prevents (or corrects) minor twists. This is especially useful for the thin, pine frame stock I sometimes use.


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

:grin:Use popcycle sticks.:smile:
Herb


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## difalkner (Jan 3, 2012)

DesertRatTom said:


> Thanks David, I'm going to get a roll for some frames in progress. I think you're talking about the parchment paper in rolls for cooking, such as lining baking pans? I've noticed the problem with wax paper, but didn't know your trick. BTW, David is my middle name, one meaning is "Lion of God." Not a bad handle if you ask me.
> 
> Tom


Yes sir, I went in the kitchen without permission and took a little bit off the roll, seems like it was close to a year ago. And I'm still using those same pieces. They're starting to get kind of worn out, though. Without thinking sometimes I wipe the glue off and that tends to stay on the paper. If you let it dry as a drop it will flick off with no problem the next time you need the paper.

Lion of God - I like that! I wonder if I can get Sandy to start calling me that... _nope_, not going there. LOL! :grin:

David


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## hawkeye10 (Jul 28, 2015)

I said yesterday I would do a test on gluing end grain to see if it would hold. I did two test, one with TB II and one with TB III. I first tried to break them loose with my hands and I couldn't do it. At 75 I don't have near the strength in my hands that I once did, so I grabbed a lightweight hammer hit it four times and the TB II broke but the TB III is still holding. I wouldn't say one glue is stronger than the other. This test is just a half *** test. I do think end grain gluing will be okay for this application.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

size the end grain 1st and improve the joint strength..


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Modern adhesives are so strong, the Weldbond that I use, once set, the wood breaks before the joint.


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## mgmine (Jan 16, 2012)

Two pocket holes on each piece would work fine and could be done in a few minutes just keep them in from, the edge


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## hawkeye10 (Jul 28, 2015)

Stick486 said:


> size the end grain 1st and improve the joint strength..


With what Stick? Maybe 30% water and 70% glue.


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

hawkeye10 said:


> I said yesterday I would do a test on gluing end grain to see if it would hold. I did two test, one with TB II and one with TB III. I first tried to break them loose with my hands and I couldn't do it. At 75 I don't have near the strength in my hands that I once did, so I grabbed a lightweight hammer hit it four times and the TB II broke but the TB III is still holding. I wouldn't say one glue is stronger than the other. This test is just a half *** test. I do think end grain gluing will be okay for this application.


Actually Titebond III is rated a bit stronger, but as both are stronger than wood, I don't know if it makes a real difference. Titebond - News Article > Understanding the Big Three I haven't tried Titebond III, as Titebond II is my weapon of choice and meets my needs very well. However, if I were making outdoor stuff, then I would most likely go for the Titebond III. 

Thinking about it, don't think anything I have made, since high school, was fastened anyway but with glue. Added glue blocks on some, but defnitely no nails or screws. Did use dowels on the nice cherry wood bookcase I made in high school shop class, and which is sitting in my living room.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

*Sizing....*

When machining a low density wood (softwoods or hardwoods) or a medium to dense hardwood with substantial amounts of reaction wood, wood fibers may be so weak that they are pushed over instead of cut off. This is especially obvious when sanding--the wood develops very fine "peach fuzz." Although this may be the effect of dull sandpaper or a dull knife, it can often be remedied with glue size. Glue size is used to stiffen and strengthen wood fibers so that they can easily be sanded or lightly planed off.

Glue size is also applied to the porous edges of particle and fiber boards to prevent over-absorption of glues and finishes. This helps fill the grain and give the wood more even coloration and surface quality.

Because many of the materials used for glue size become soft and will flow when heated, it is necessary to avoid high temperatures caused by the friction of aggressive sanding. It is also important to keep the temperature controlled during curing of the finishes.

Most of the time, commercial glue size formulas are better than homemade. Glue size is most commonly made of a watered-down, water-based, PVA adhesive. If you do plan to make your own, try something on the order of 10 parts (or a little less) water to one part white glue. Keep experimenting if this doesn't work out right (it will vary with species). ........ 

*Get good results gluing end grain joints.*
Although good joint design minimizes the need for gluing end grain, sometimes end grain joints are unavoidable. The strength of end grain joints can be improved if the "open" end grain is first sized. A sizing mixture may be made by mixing one part to two parts water to one part glue. Place the sizing mixture on the end grain. Let it soak in for no more than two minutes, and then continue with a regular application of glue.
*
Prevent sunken joints in your projects.*
Water-based wood glues such as Titebond Original or Titebond II build strength in a joint as they lose moisture into the surrounding wood. This moisture causes the wood on both sides of the bond-line to swell slightly. If the project is planed or sanded before this swelling disappears, the high moisture wood near the joint will continue to dry and will shrink slightly compared to the rest of the wood. Allow your project to dry for several days before sanding or planing.


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## Wood Chip (Apr 10, 2011)

If only one side will be viewable, check out this video:






Even though you say you don't have a biscuit joiner, you could do the same with your router and biscuits.


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

Wood Chip said:


> If only one side will be viewable, check out this video:


OK, checked the video. I disagree that just glue would not be enough. The bisquits in the joints is neat, agree would add strength. But, with a cap, and bottom pieces glued on, I don't see why the bisquits would be necessary. Especially when there is not going to be any load on any of it.


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## JFPNCM (Dec 13, 2009)

Stick's points on sizing are well made. I recall an older post on the forum where the author recommended allowing the first coat of glue on an end grain joint to "soak in" before adding the final coat and clamping the joint. I've tried this on several circular patterns with Titebond III and the joints hold extremely well.


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