# New Member, Looking for input on project (Garden Arch)



## ABear (Sep 18, 2019)

Hello to all and thank you for letting me join the Router Forums community.

I am in the process of making the wife an arbor for the backyard garden and have some questions, mostly looking for expert advice. The arbor is basically made using Qty four 4 X 4 post in a square pattern and the top arch is the part in question. The arch top will be made with Cedar 2 x 6's, and will be 3" thick (doubling up the 2 x 6's), I used a segment calculator, determined the length of each segment at roughly 21.5" and cut the 2 x 6's at 22.5 degrees (basically a half octagon). Arch will be big, basically 51" or so outside, to 44" inside (give or take a little). 

My Router is a Craftsman 27683 12 amp 2HP (Chervon Mfg, thinking maybe a Chinese copy of a Bosch 1617).

I do have a router jig, Jasper Model 300. I know I could have made a jig. I am trying to simplify and take potential pitfalls out of the equation. 

The router bit is a Whiteside #RU5150 Spiral Up Cut Bit - 1/2" SH X 1/2" CD X 1-1/2" CL

I literally have zero router experience even though I have a fair amount of woodworking experience, four years High School wood-shop using Shapers, Planers, Jointers, Cabinet Saws, Lathes, etc. 

I have cut the 2 x 6's to keep the grain all oriented the same direction the best I can. 

I plan on taking shallow passes, even though I have not determined what constitutes a shallow pass, maybe 1/8"?

Plan on keeping the feed rate slow, RPM's at ???? (Router has 10,000 - 25,000 as I recall). 

Plan on clamping the work down to a solid table, working at about normal workbench height.

I have mocked up a doug fir 2 x 6 top to get some practice, beyond that I have no idea what I am doing.

My comments above are based on my research of do's and don'ts.



THANK YOU FOR ANY COMMENTS!


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

ABear said:


> Hello to all and thank you for letting me join the Router Forums community.
> 
> I am in the process of making the wife an arbor for the backyard garden and have some questions, mostly looking for expert advice. The arbor is basically made using Qty four 4 X 4 post in a square pattern and the top arch is the part in question. The arch top will be made with Cedar 2 x 6's, and will be 3" thick (doubling up the 2 x 6's), I used a segment calculator, determined the length of each segment at roughly 21.5" and cut the 2 x 6's at 22.5 degrees (basically a half octagon). Arch will be big, basically 51" or so outside, to 44" inside (give or take a little).
> 
> ...


welcome to the the forums Robert...

*''I literally have zero router experience''...*
we can help w/ that...
head over *to this link *for some light reading... (splines are covered there)
for other than the splines, I believe a router isn't the best tool for this project...

your cedar, is it Western Red Cedar??? It should be...
If I interpret what you doing you are actually making a vaulted arbor w/ a solid ceiling/roof... Correct???










your wood is going to have seasonal movement like it was trying to move it's self next door unless you select it carefully..










your staves..
I would use a splined (if the arch is self supporting) birdsmouth joint easily done on the table saw w/ a dado blade...










cut the spline groves w/ a slot cutter...
use white oak for the splines...










got more questions??? ask away!!!!


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

@ABear...

do you have a link to that calculator???


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## FixitMike (Aug 14, 2011)

If you have mocked up the arch using fir and have cut it, you now have a template you can use. Or draw one segment on a piece of hardboard and cut it out.

Myself, I would first cut each 2 x 6 segment into its arc shape with a band saw. Cut one in half and assemble them with an overlap joint, gluing and/or screwing them. Then finish with a belt sander.


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## Bob Adams (Jul 5, 2014)

Robert welcome to the forum! That is a cool project. I have a couple of questions. How are you joining your segments? End to end grain glue ups are not very strong. I would probably dowel or loose tenon the joints. Are you going to glue up one full octagon, rout and then cut in half, or do 1/2 at a time? (this is just curiosity) Either way I would make a template and draw out the outer and inner circles, use a jig saw to cut close to the lines, within in a 1/16" then rout with your circle jig. Then with cedar or doug fir I would be comfortable with my depth of cut being 3/4". But shallower passes wouldn't be a bad thing either.


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## old55 (Aug 11, 2013)

Welcome to the forum Robert.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Welcoms to the Forum and that's a really nice project. You have 8 segments for the full circle, four for an arch. Cut the angles first, lay out the half circle, and I'd use a pencil through a stick, with a sharp point on the other end to draw the arch. I'm with Stick on using oak splines to join them, otherwise you could use lap joints, but that will be trickier to measure and cut. Splines with weather resistant glue are very strong. 

When cutting the splines on the ends, make sure you put the face toward the fence on every piece so your grooves are aligned. I'd cut fairly deep and use splines that were 3-4 inches long

Personally, I'd use 2x6 red cedar if I could find it so the arch would be a little wider. Where the ends joined the vertical sides of the opening, I'd go with a bit wider wood. But I live in the desert and the weather extremes will be hard on whatever I used, so I tend to overbuild a little. 

I would make the curved cuts on a band saw, or a good jig saw. I'd roundover the edges of the curved pieces a little. Not sure this is much of a router project unless you used a pattern. But even then I'd make the curved cut with a band or jig saw, and use the router to clean it up. Cut just outside the line 1/16th with the band or jig saw and clean it up later.

One other option for setting up the curve would be to buy some half inch MDF. Cut it to the width of the arch, then using a trammel (stick with pencil on the end, a nail on the other. The inside and outside radius will be the nail insertion point. Draw the arc. You could do this on a small sheet of mdf, or even directly on your precut 2x. Place a same thickness piece for the nail to ride on. 

Just thinking this out a little. The simpler the method, the more likely it is to turn out well.


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## Bushwhacker (Jun 16, 2009)

I just recently made one of these for the front yard. Mine is not quite like the one in the drawings but it worked for us. It can be seen and how I did it on my UTUBE ( (Entry Arch) David Peterson, Take a look if you would like. I also made one like the one you have in the picture many years ago. AS shown, I cut out the curved pieces and off set them to double them up. To my knowledge, it is still standing, and that was over 25 years ago.

David

Note
AS Stick said, watch the grains of the cuts or it will crawl all over the place.


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## ABear (Sep 18, 2019)

Stick486 said:


> welcome to the the forums Robert...
> 
> *''I literally have zero router experience''...*
> we can help w/ that...
> ...



Thank you Stick, lots of good reading at the link you provided!

I was not familiar with splines, looks like biscuits without the biscuit/biscuit cutter. Thank You!

Yes, the arbor picture you uploaded is pretty much exactly what I am building.

Yes, Western Red Cedar. I live in the PNW so WRC is plentiful and affordable.


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## ABear (Sep 18, 2019)

Stick486 said:


> @ABear...
> 
> do you have a link to that calculator???



The forums will not allow me to post a URL as a new member so I have a screen grab of the website. I found several others if you are interested.


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## ABear (Sep 18, 2019)

FixitMike said:


> If you have mocked up the arch using fir and have cut it, you now have a template you can use. Or draw one segment on a piece of hardboard and cut it out.
> 
> Myself, I would first cut each 2 x 6 segment into its arc shape with a band saw. Cut one in half and assemble them with an overlap joint, gluing and/or screwing them. Then finish with a belt sander.


Thank you for the ideas. I don't have a band saw. I am cutting the pieces with a miter saw and a fine finish blade so I am getting smooth cuts/joints. I do plan on glue (Titebond) and screws and overlapping. The arch is based on modifications of one I saw in Popular Mechanics.


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## MEBCWD (Jan 14, 2012)

Welcome to the Router Forums Robert.


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## ABear (Sep 18, 2019)

Bob Adams said:


> Robert welcome to the forum! That is a cool project. I have a couple of questions. How are you joining your segments? End to end grain glue ups are not very strong. I would probably dowel or loose tenon the joints. Are you going to glue up one full octagon, rout and then cut in half, or do 1/2 at a time? (this is just curiosity) Either way I would make a template and draw out the outer and inner circles, use a jig saw to cut close to the lines, within in a 1/16" then rout with your circle jig. Then with cedar or doug fir I would be comfortable with my depth of cut being 3/4". But shallower passes wouldn't be a bad thing either.


Thank you Bob, I am still undecided on the exact approach but was thinking Kreg pocket screws on the surface where the joints meet, and glue. The pocket holes would be on the inside of each 1.5" thickness side. I do have a good jigsaw and was planning on trimming close before routing. Hope my comments make sense.


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## ABear (Sep 18, 2019)

DesertRatTom said:


> Welcoms to the Forum and that's a really nice project. You have 8 segments for the full circle, four for an arch. Cut the angles first, lay out the half circle, and I'd use a pencil through a stick, with a sharp point on the other end to draw the arch. I'm with Stick on using oak splines to join them, otherwise you could use lap joints, but that will be trickier to measure and cut. Splines with weather resistant glue are very strong.
> 
> When cutting the splines on the ends, make sure you put the face toward the fence on every piece so your grooves are aligned. I'd cut fairly deep and use splines that were 3-4 inches long
> 
> ...


Thank you for the input. My goal is to keep this as non-complex as possible! I appreciate the good ideas!


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## .220977 (Aug 15, 2019)

Welcome to the forum Robert!
Awesome that you are taking on such an ambitious project!
I wouldn't even know where to start besides to begin researching.

Be sure to show us a pic when it's finished.


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## ABear (Sep 18, 2019)

Thanks to all for the warm welcome and thanks to all who took time to comment and help.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

With a 1/2" bit you should be able to make at least 1/2' passes. That bit has a 1 1/2" cutting length if I remember right so you'll either have to cut from both sides or use a pattern or flush trim bit to finish by running the bearing on them against the portion the up cut bit did.

One way to rout that is to attach the router to a long strip of thin ply. You can then pin that to the sheet you'll have the segments on at the 51" and 44" distances. Basically the router and ply strip become a long pendulum. I would still jig saw most of the waste off first. That's always easier on bits and the router. Leave a 1/16" outside the lines.

As for speed with a half inch bit you want to go full speed. Feed rate is governed by the sound your router is making. If it seems to be laboring then slow down. I would also slow down at the knots. WRC lumber has notoriously hard knots that can be very hard on carbide bits.


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## MEBCWD (Jan 14, 2012)

Here is the link to the calculator.

Woodturners Resource Segment Calculator


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## David Bradford (Sep 12, 2019)

Welcome to the forum Robert. Good luck with your project it looks like you have got some good advice here and hope to see your finished project.


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

Welcome to RF, Robert...you will love it here...

Quite the ambitious project you have there and it sounds like you have an excellent handle on it.

With the advice you've been given you should have no problem executing.

Work slow and careful and the details will appear for you.

Ask away as you proceed...you sound like "think first, cut later" type...


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## marecat3 (Nov 30, 2010)

Welcome to the forum, I am sure there are people here that will be able to help you.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

ABear said:


> Thank you for the ideas. I don't have a band saw. I am cutting the pieces with a miter saw and a fine finish blade so I am getting smooth cuts/joints. I do plan on glue (Titebond) and screws and overlapping. The arch is based on modifications of one I saw in Popular Mechanics.


consider: 
at least the birdsmouth joint to help shed water...
Weldbond glue instead of TB... BUT, I wouldn't glue, the wood has/needs to move.. a strong joint will encourage splitting someplace else...
don't do butt joints, do lap joints... way better water shedding - think like a shingle..
slot screw your boards onto the arch rafters ... this will allow for seasonal wood movement... or use clips... think table top to apron mounting...
support the ''roof'' w/ rafters...
instead of 6/4 material use 4/4 for the ''roof''...
pocket screws will fail because of their inability to move w/ the wood's swelling and shrinking equaling open butt joints which become progressive issues...

.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

MEBCWD said:


> Here is the link to the calculator.
> 
> Woodturners Resource Segment Calculator


thanks...


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## ABear (Sep 18, 2019)

@Stick486

Thanks again for all the comments. I do have a couple more questions and wanted to add a few details on the project. 

I am using pressure treated lumber for the post, I let them dry out over the Summer, they are 4" X 4" oversize so they are 4-1/8" X 4-1/8" actual. They are already set in concrete about 28" deep and measured square corner to corner, 28" is way below my local frost line. Inside width about 44", outside adds 8-1/4" so about 52 1/8" outside. Overall depth about 34"

I have picked up a couple WRC 1 X 6 X 8 boards to go on top of the post, my plan was to use both boards (so 1.5" thickness total) on top of the post and then attach the actual arch to the top boards. 

Here are my questions; 

You mentioned using 4/4 vs. 6/4 for the top, since I am targeting a 3" thick on each arch piece (double 2 x 6 thick) that is extra cost extra lumber, will you please elaborate on the advantages of why you suggest this approach.

Slot screwing the connecting pieces on the arch is a great idea, thank you. 

I can see how weak a butt joint would be, I can see the advantage of using splines. I am debating the Freud Slot Cutter vs. just using my table saw with a jig, I am undecided but here is my next question.

My plan was to off set the 2 x 6's on top of each other as in the attached picture, this should add a lot of strength, would you still recommend the splines. I am guessing yes and if so I will add splines. 

OK, here is where I am lost, you recommend a birdsmouth joint. I looked it up and understand the joint and its use. I assume you are recommending this for attaching the arch bottom to the frame, if other than that, I need you to provide me some more details. 

Thank you once again.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

ABear said:


> @Stick486
> 
> 1... I am using pressure treated lumber for the post. They are already set in concrete
> 
> ...


1... FWIW, I would have used WRC posts and the next time you set a post, set it in pea gravel. CC in contact w/ wood promotes rot because it keeps the wood wet... wood+water=rot....
2... could you clarify...
3... a 2by is actually 6/4 thick.. 4/4 is a 1'' thick... a 1x is 3/4'' thick...
clapboard your roof like shingles to promote water run off... kant (if need be) the face of the top edge of the board that is under the next board going up hill for a better fit... (run the board through your TS on it's edge to get the angle you need)... cut flats to fit on top of your arch to fit the clapboards... a butted joint is going to open, which leads to failure, no matter what you do... on second thought, a 2x may give you more wiggle room and better/cleaner esthetics...
4... the TS is your best bet.. no jig required... stand your board on it's edge to cut the slot...
5... you are building a barrel vault... splines for butt joints, but butt joints, for me, on the roof boards would be pretty far down the method list... DO spline your arch segment's butt joints...
6... the birdsmouth is an alternate butt joint for your roof boards... study the picture I posted, the lip is on the down slope and acts as a water shed...

can you post a link to your plan???


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## ABear (Sep 18, 2019)

Thank you Stick, the Router Forums will not allow me to hotlink a URL as a new Member, I am sure it is to keep the spam down. I have a screen grab of the website that shows the plan, my plan is just a modification of this plan to make it larger and the cross ties on the top I plan on using 2 x 2 WRC stock, also 2 x 2 WRC stock on the side laths. I have attached a picture which shows a couple boards between the upright posts and the arbor. These are the boards mentioned in the #2 item that you asked for clarification. 

I am going to review your latest comments and see if I have questions, thank you again for taking time to help!


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

hurry and get your 10 posts


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## ABear (Sep 18, 2019)

Well, this should put me over the limit, post 10.


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## ABear (Sep 18, 2019)

Popular Mechanics DIY Arch;

https://www.popularmechanics.com/home/lawn-garden/how-to/a1679/4217203/


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## ABear (Sep 18, 2019)

Here is a link to the download;

http://pop.h-cdn.co/assets/cm/15/06/54d113af09c82_-_arbor-final.pdf


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

thanks


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

is there any chance of back pedaling???
there a lot of reasons for this construction detail...

.


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## ABear (Sep 18, 2019)

No back pedaling on that item, four posts sitting in concrete, 28" deep.

Would be glad to hear your thoughts on the subject. 

I saw the plan and decided to "improve the design" with the concrete.

FWIW - TH PT Timbers are Ground Contact Rated and if I recall correctly, 0.40 pcf for ACQ.

I also tried to trowel the concrete so it runs off at the top. I did not use any silicone sealant between the concrete top and post but I did think about that idea.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

concrete will do two things, guaranteed, hold moisture and crack at some point. Both are not good for the post that you are encasing in the concrete...

Moisture is wood's natural enemy. air, moisture will destroy that piece of wood. OK, so you used BB treated wood for your post. (but what is it's rating) That does help, sorta, and it will prolong the woods life, but no treating solution will stand up to a CONSTANT attack from air and moisture. That happens around the clock at the ground level. 
With concrete holding the moisture against the wood, your wood has no chance of survival and will eventually lose the battle. Look at the bright side, the concrete around the post will crack making the post easy to pull out when it starts to rot. Even worse is if the concrete cracks early. Now the concrete is like a bucket around the post, filling up with water every time it rains. Now you’re heading for a rotted post in a sloppy hole...

Before packaged concrete came along, the big boys, Sakrete and Quikrete would recommend putting a concrete block in the bottom of the hole to keep the post from settling or sinking. Then when packaged concrete came out, they would recommend you pour some in the bottom of the hole to set the post on, replacing the block. Of course, more is always better, right? So why don’t we just fill that hole up with concrete? Man that’s gots to be better. Solid as a rock! It’s not going anywhere! Sound familiar?

So what to do instead of concrete, gravel... using gravel does a couple of things. First, it lets the water drain away from the wood right on down into the ground. No water, no moisture, no rot! 
look to all those farmer's/rancher's fence posts that are in the ground w/o CC... been there for decades and decades and decades.. and still doing just fine...


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

My house is sitting on a PWF foundation and one of the criteria for making it work was to have a gravel layer against the walls with a minimum of 4mm fines in that gravel. Water has to pass right by it. If it does the PW can last up to 50 years or more. If the material against the wall is impermeable it can have a lifespan as short as 8 years I've heard.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

cherryville chuck said:


> my house is sitting on a pwf foundation and one of the criteria for making it work was to have a gravel layer against the walls with a minimum of 4mm fines in that gravel. Water has to pass right by it. If it does the pw can last up to 50 years or more. If the material against the wall is impermeable it can have a lifespan as short as 8 years i've heard.


one of these???

.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

ABear said:


> 1... No back pedaling on that item, four posts sitting in concrete, 28" deep.
> 
> 2... Would be glad to hear your thoughts on the subject.
> 
> ...


1... never say never...
2... see my above post...
3... CC is not waterproof and will still keep your wood wet...
silicone will not do you any good and will not last... silicone caulk is a slippery slope aka nightmare that is best left alone...

.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

@ABear...

Robert...
your arbor is getting a solid roof and not slatted, correct???


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## ABear (Sep 18, 2019)

The roof will have slats (I believe the term is purlins?) The arbor is going to be very close to the picture you posted back on page one of the thread which I reposted;

The purlins are going to be 2 x 2 WRC stock which I have on hand already, found some straight and dry boards, already in the shop at the moment. 

I do have another general routing question which also relates to my project. It was mentioned in the thread, it would be a good idea to jigsaw close to the trammel line/template line and only leave about 1/16" material. I can see this would be necessary if you using some form of a flush trim bit or similar. 

Since I have already purchased the Whiteside 1/2" Spiral Upcut bit that is what I am planning on using. Taking shallow passes, isn't the Spiral Upcut bit designed to plunge into the project at the template line regardless of the surrounding material. I started thinking about bits that route dados/grooves and it got me thinking that my bit should work without trimming the excess?


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

oooops...
not a solid roof...


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

The good news is nobody's living in it, so, if it rots at the base...
Wood _hates_ contact with concrete. Even with treatment it's still a crap shoot. If you need to bury a fence post in concrete, wrap the base with Tyvek to above the pour line. 
Re the wood+Silicone+moisture thing; if the wood gets wet, the Silicone will lose its bond, letting water leak in behind it! Urethane sealant is vastly superior, in fact Silicone caulking isn't even permitted as a sealant around wood in new construction up here (Canada).


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## FixitMike (Aug 14, 2011)

Note that Robert said "The arch top will be made with Cedar 2 x 6's, and will be 3" thick (doubling up the 2 x 6's)." This means that if he cuts one segment in half, and use it to start one side, he can make full lap joints of the segments, and will not need any end joining.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Stick486 said:


> one of these???
> 
> .


Yes.


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## Bushwhacker (Jun 16, 2009)

This is the link to the Entry Arch I made for our front yard. Not like yours but this one worked for us. And, yes, I set the post in gravel and dirt.

David

PS; When we recently bought the motor home, it would not fit in the drive way with the slides extended so I had to move the fence. I took it down and dug up the post.
The post were still as solid as the day I set them 20 years ago when I built the fence. I had them set in gravel.
Moved the fence and threw on a fresh coat of paint and just like new.


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

Thanks for posting the video, David, I enjoyed it.
Herb


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## Bushwhacker (Jun 16, 2009)

Herb Stoops said:


> Thanks for posting the video, David, I enjoyed it.
> Herb


Thanks, I finally found it. It is under "Show and Tell".

David


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## ABear (Sep 18, 2019)

Thanks for posting the video David.


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## ABear (Sep 18, 2019)

I have ran into a small snag and I am sure it is something I must be doing wrong. I hope someone can tell me what I am doing wrong. I am using the large Jasper Circle Jig, using a Whiteside RU5150 Spiral Up Cut Bit. I routed a plywood template for the arch top, no problem, worked great. The wife then decided she wanted the arch a smidgen bigger, no problem, that is the real easy to go a 1/4" larger (3 -1/4" to 3-1/2").

I cut my segments to length, attached to the template and routed away. When I got done, there was an uneven spot which appeared near the end of the routing path. I attributed this to a knot in the wood which is clearly visible in the attached picture. When I routed the second set of arches I ran into the same problem (at the end of the path, same place, no knot this time), obviously something is amiss. 

I hope I provided enough of an explanation to be clear, pictures always help and pics are attached. The template was built for a 3.25" width, I went 1/4" bigger so the picture should show 1/8" outside the plywood template. When you see the bump out, look next to it, you can see a section of the routed material that it appears to be too close to the template and the bump out as I call it is actually more on target of what it should be.

Any comments or guidance would be greatly appreciated!


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

grain change tear out..

.


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## ABear (Sep 18, 2019)

Thank you for the reading material and comments. I was only making 1/8" passes and had a new sharp bit so somewhat surprised of the tearout. I will be in the learning mode for a long time!


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

ABear said:


> Thank you for the reading material and comments. I was only making 1/8" passes and had a new sharp bit so somewhat surprised of the tearout. I will be in the learning mode for a long time!


What are you guiding on? If you are using the circle guide to cut the radius, what is the template for? I am not sure what caused the bump out, but it can be furred out with a belt sander or block plane.
Herb


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

@Herb Stoops...

I a got a feeling Robert didn't hog out the radius 1st... (2nd pic)
all that cutting...
going nice and easy on cutting...
the glue build up on the bit..
the bit getting hot..
all contributed to the bit dulling..
then he hits wild grain or a grain change which caused the bit to climb cut...
hence the results..

there is the possibility the guide was not anchored as well as he thought and things shifted when the bit ''pulled''...


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

@ABear...
if you have more routering to do follow these easy steps...

do your layout...
cut away all of the excess material 1st w/ your jig saw as close to your line as possible... 
as in really close...
now router in one pass to ''clean up'' the edge.. 
pay attention to the grain and follow the recommendations in the PDF's...

the less the router has to do the better the cut, fit and finish...


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## ABear (Sep 18, 2019)

Herb Stoops said:


> What are you guiding on? If you are using the circle guide to cut the radius, what is the template for? I am not sure what caused the bump out, but it can be furred out with a belt sander or block plane.
> Herb


I am using the Jasper Jig as a guide. I routed the template to make sure everything would fit properly. I used a segment calculator to size the segments and I literally had 1/16" of excess in certain spots.


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## ABear (Sep 18, 2019)

Stick486 said:


> @Herb Stoops...
> 
> I a got a feeling Robert didn't hog out the radius 1st... (2nd pic)
> all that cutting...
> ...


Correct, I did not cut away the excess prior to routing. In some areas there was already just a fraction, in other areas there was an inch or two of material. 

The segments were screwed down to the template so no glue up yet, routed without any glue in the way. 

Yes, I thought the guide was anchored well but on one of the final passes it had literally pulled the pin out of the hole (yikes). Lesson learned, pay attention to all details at the start.


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## ABear (Sep 18, 2019)

Stick486 said:


> @ABear...
> if you have more routering to do follow these easy steps...
> 
> do your layout...
> ...


I have only routed 2 of the 4 arch segments (if you recall I am doubling up 2 x 6's).

I have a good quality jigsaw and will follow your recommendation to cut away the excess prior to doing the last two arch's.

I really appreciate all the comments from everyone!


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

ABear said:


> Correct, I did not cut away the excess prior to routing. In some areas there was already just a fraction, in other areas there was an inch or two of material.
> 
> The segments were screwed down to the template so no glue up yet, routed without any glue in the way.
> 
> Yes, I thought the guide was anchored well but on one of the final passes it had literally pulled the pin out of the hole (yikes). Lesson learned, pay attention to all details at the start.


you routered the template from the plywood...
that glue...
clean your bit before you use it again...
I like Trend's cleaner or turps and a tooth brush..

*DO NOT USE OVEN CLEANER!!!*


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

ABear said:


> Correct, I did not cut away the excess prior to routing. In some areas there was already just a fraction, in other areas there was an inch or two of material.
> 
> The segments were screwed down to the template so no glue up yet, routed without any glue in the way.
> 
> Yes, I thought the guide was anchored well but on one of the final passes it had literally pulled the pin out of the hole (yikes). Lesson learned, pay attention to all details at the start.


That was my first thought, that the pivot pin moved, but I thought, Naw he would have noticed that immediately.

Herb


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## MEBCWD (Jan 14, 2012)

If you are using the template and the pivot point are you positive they are lined up correctly. You might be using the pivot most of the time and at some point, the template is actually not aligned with the pivot and causing the router to be pushed off course.


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## ABear (Sep 18, 2019)

Thanks to all for the helpful tips!


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

ABear said:


> Thanks to all for the helpful tips!


no problem..
just ask... before not after...
not only that we gots a bazillion tips to share...

I'll start...
sleep late...
nap often...


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## Nobodi (Oct 22, 2015)

is that step at both ends , the jasper circle jig isn't sagging when cutting away from the ends then straightening out as the edge of the jig rides up the bottom of template ?


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## ABear (Sep 18, 2019)

Nobodi said:


> is that step at both ends , the jasper circle jig isn't sagging when cutting away from the ends then straightening out as the edge of the jig rides up the bottom of template ?


Not sure I follow your exact comments on the potential sagging but i have a few related comments.

The jig works great for dialing in an exact size in 1/4"increments with ease, that being said, there is a fair amount of flex in the acrylic being so long. It could use some stiffening or just make a DIY jig out of wood. I noticed some flex in different spots and when I routed the outside, on later passes, I inserted the half-moon template I had cutout back into the middle to add support to the long Jasper jig.

When I was having a grain related tearout problem, I also noticed a fair amount of flex. I also mentioned at one time my jig coming unpinned, which I later discovered was the router cord binding between the jig and template causing the jig to ride up and out of the pin holding the jig.

All in all the arches came out OK for a first try, with the second one noticeably better than the first due to better technique and the learning curve of never doing a project like this.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

ABear said:


> Not sure I follow your exact comments on the potential sagging but i have a few related comments.
> 
> The jig works great for dialing in an exact size in 1/4"increments with ease, that being said, there is a fair amount of flex in the acrylic being so long. It could use some stiffening or just make a DIY jig out of wood. I noticed some flex in different spots and when I routed the outside, on later passes, I inserted the half-moon template I had cutout back into the middle to add support to the long Jasper jig.
> 
> ...


rip 2 or 3 pieces of wood as wide as the height of the jig (measured from the underside) to the table...
stand them on edge inside of the open area, parallel to the template's base, that the jig passes over to serve as supports..
let the jig move freely over the supports...
you may have to DST them to the table...


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

> All in all the arches came out OK for a first try, with the second one noticeably better than the first due to better technique and the learning curve of never doing a project like this.


would it help any if run you ideas or choice of method(s) by us 1st????


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## ABear (Sep 18, 2019)

Stick486 said:


> would it help any if run you ideas or choice of method(s) by us 1st????


I did get some good input and took advantage of the comments, like trimming the excess before routing the second set of arches. 

The comment above about supporting the jig, using boards and DST, will use that too.


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## ABear (Sep 18, 2019)

Stick486 said:


> would it help any if run you ideas or choice of method(s) by us 1st????


While I am online I do have a question.

I am going to route a 45 degree chamfer on my transition boards. These are the boards between the 4 x 4 post and the actual arch tops.

I have not got around to building a router table, on my to do list. So I plan on hand routing the transition boards, possibly 1" thick stock (5/4), haven't decided, will be hand routing the 45 degree chamfer;

*any best way to approach this*, asking ahead of time (see I am paying attention).


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

TS the chamfer as 1st choice if you can...
for the router... use a bearing guided bit..


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## ABear (Sep 18, 2019)

Stick486 said:


> TS the chamfer as 1st choice if you can...
> for the router... use a bearing guided bit..


I do have a DeWalt table saw in the shop, it has 45 degree capability. I will start there, thanks for the guidance.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

make sure cut comes out smooth..
sand if you have to...
rough catches and holds water..


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## ABear (Sep 18, 2019)

I have plenty of sand paper on hand from 80 grit - to maybe 180 grit. As an option I have a 10" fine finish blade that is new I could use on my TS. Will start with the factory TS blade and sand and see what results I get.

Thanks again for the comments.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

start w/ the fine finish aka glue line...
save the work and sandpaper...


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## ABear (Sep 18, 2019)

Will do, just poking around other forums and ran across this, 45 degree TS cut that went seriously awry;

https://www.lumberjocks.com/topics/306071


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

ABear said:


> Will do, just poking around other forums and ran across this, 45 degree TS cut that went seriously awry;
> 
> https://www.lumberjocks.com/topics/306071


Good grief , I wish I could unsee that .


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## ABear (Sep 18, 2019)

Hello to all, some of you might remember this thread from last Fall, everyone was very helpful!

I have been tasked with building a second garden arch and I am trying to incorporate some of the lessons learned from last years project which turned out amazingly well considering it was my first routing project.

I have routed the first section of the new arch and the outside edge of the arch came out really good, much better than last year. I spent extra time on the grain/orientation, trimmed close to the cut line and a few other things I did not do originally last year.

My inside cut is another story! As a reminder this is WRC, 2 x 6 lumber, cut at 22.5 degree angles and routed into an arch. I am using the same Whiteside spiral upcut 1/2" bit with my handheld Craftsman Router.

The inside cut looks pretty good except where the sections join. I routed the outside of the arch counterclockwise and the inside of the arch clockwise (I hope the inside portion was routed the correct direction?). All the passes were shallow, 1/16 - 1/8 more or less. As a reminder I used the Jasper circle jig.

I am sure the attached pictures and description above will shed some light on what I am doing wrong.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

That's tear our because of the wood's grain...
climb cutting will help some or using pieces that haven't the spiral of a knot in them so close to the joint...

.


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

RainMan 2.0 said:


> Good grief , I wish I could unsee that .



On that recommendation, I'm not even going to watch it...!


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

Do you have pictures of the previous finished product? Sometimes the grain pops up to bite you when lest expecting it. Don't be discouraged, just remember routers like to grab end grain even if it is in the middle of the edge of a board. Sometimes taking out a big chunk on both sides of the tear out. Keep an eye out for grain that swirls and comes straight out of the edge. If you can stop go beyond and the come back slowly with a tight grip,"(climb cut)". If you are cutting toward the point of the miter i.e. looking in the picture above from right to left, it will tend to grab, you might have to turn the arch and route with the miter towards the long point of the miter cut.
Just a suggestion.
Herb


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## ABear (Sep 18, 2019)

Thank you Stick and Herb for the suggestions.

I appreciate the feedback and will try a couple things on the second section to see if I can get better results.

As mentioned, the outside of the arch, and the connecting joints came out very good compared to the inside section.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

here..
these may help you to understand the wood...

.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

WRC has very soft grain and is prone to tearout, even when you drill it, so that's the reason for the rough edge. Climb cutting might help but should only ever be done handheld. When doing it handheld the router will push itself away from the wood as it self feeds. If the router is prevented from doing that by some type of jig then it will feed itself into the wood so fast that you'll have no hope of controlling it and something is likely to get thrown and multiple types of damage are possible. 

Attached is an illustration I drew to show what causes tearout but it will also serve to show proper feed direction. In the illustration it shows the correct direction and if you look at the cutting edge of the bit it shows the flat part, the face of the cutter, facing the feed direction. That's the easiest way I know of to tell you which is the correct direction is that face has to be facing the same direction you are feeding. It doesn't matter if the router is upside down, right side up, if you are routing on the near side of the piece or the far side. The face of the cutter is always pointing in the direction you need to feed. So all you have to do is look at it and it will point the way for you.

As for the tearout the illustration was drawn to explain, the force the bit is placing on the wood at various points of contact are shown by the arrows. The force is tangential to the point of contact. So at the point 90 degrees to the left of the bit the force is straight in line with the piece and in most cases will be pretty close to parallel with the grain. When the bit is buried half of it's diameter into the cut the force at the edge of the wood (directly at the front of the bit) is 90 degrees to the wood and close to the same to the grain direction. If the force the bit is applying to the cut is greater than the binding force of grain layer to grain layer then you're going to get tearout. So the cut least likely to cause tearout is when the force of the cut is close to parallel with the grain.


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## ABear (Sep 18, 2019)

Thank you Stick and thank you Charles for the extra information. 

I got brave and did a little climb cutting today in an area where I was getting some tear out. The router was still on the jig and I made shallow passes, maybe 1/16" and was only routing about a 6 inch length of the arch, made about 4 or 5 shallow passes. It seemed to help and I had no control issues but I am smart enough to be wary, everything is always fine until it isn't! I am going to try and keep any climb cutting to a minimum.

One of my WRC segment boards literally split in half today and left a baby smooth seam between the two pieces, the board was now unusable, lucky I had more.

I managed to break a brand new Swiss made Bosch jigsaw blade today, this stuff is a bear in spots to cut and no I was not making too sharp of a turn. I was putting a fair amount of forward force on the blade at the time as it was not cutting as typical. 

The outside of the arch (second segment) is done and looks clean, I did not get to the inside arch routing today. 

Thanks again for the helpful advice.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

As long as the router can walk away from the cut by moving outward you are safe. It you are following a template with a guide bushing or bearing guided bit no problem. But if you had the router attached to a center pivot with a fixed length rod (like some circle cutters for example) then don't try it. The best way I've found is to make very small counter clockwise circles with the router and nibble away at it taking a 1/16 to 1/8" bite per circle.


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## ABear (Sep 18, 2019)

Thank you Chuck for the helpful tips.


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## FixitMike (Aug 14, 2011)

*Joints.*

What many have missed is that OP is going to have two layers to make the arch. If the joints are offset, butt joints will work fine.


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## ABear (Sep 18, 2019)

Yes, the joints were offset, this is arch two, the one I built last year has survived snow, rain, and 60 mph winds. It has been rock solid.

I used 316 rated stainless fasteners, weld bond glue that Stick recommended, and Snappy countersinks to pre-drill for the fasteners. You can see some of the tearout that occurred on the inside of the arch, the outside was much cleaner. I used some wood putty rated for exterior use to clean up the tearout, then sanded smooth.


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