# Heating the garage...



## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

We get a windfall in January and I'm finally going to have the garage ceiling insulated and drywalled. I have my wood milling tools out there and it gets too cold or too hot in there depending on the season. I'm putting in the insulation (R38) but hiring the drywall done.

I'd like some feedback on a couple of questions. 

1 what kind of heater will do the best job of quick warmup in there. I don't necessarily want to keep it warm except those times I'm prepping wood. Propane is a no, no open flame, thank you.

2 there are two open vents low down on the back wall. I think these are a must for the gas water heater. The roll up door is well sealed and insulated so no fresh air from there unless it's open. The water drain for the washing machine gos out through the vent, but that should be easy to make room for that 2 inch pvc pipe. 

So, my question is, if I seal those vents, do I need to open a vent to the outside near the water heater and then enclose the heater? I think I can frame that in pretty easily, with a door for access from inside the garage. Your thoughts?

BTW, I found some 24 inch long steel rods, a little less than 1/8th of an inch diameter, that span the gap between rafters, these are meant to hold up the insulation before drywalling. Since I'm putting in the insulation a month before the drywall, I think this will minimize ripping and put less weight on the drywall. Hopefully it will give me a warmup preview.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

You can use the insulation with the paper backing for the bottom layer between the ceiling joists and it will stay just fine as long as no cats or squirrels go running across it and it also helps as a bit of draft barrier. You should probably retain the vents for the water heater. It might be possible with DC or other fans running to create a negative pressure inside the garage and get the draft coming in the wrong way. The vents would help prevent that. They also help prevent against oxygen starvation.You could run vent pipes up close to the heater instead of just into the room or possibly enclose it as you suggest. If you do that run the idea past someone who installs them for a living (ticketed i.e.) and see if they have suggestions.

My shop heater is a radiant tube type and I like it but it takes a few minutes to feel it. They are fairly cheap to operate. When it's on it feels like sunshine on your skin and it works by heating the objects in the room with infrared energy. The advantages are no moving air and and the burner air supply comes from the attic space to the heater via a flex pipe so no worries about open flames or depriving the heater of combustion air with the DC on.


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

good idea to frame in the HW heater, but leave the combustion air from the outside. I use one of those oil filled radiant heaters that plug in the wall, around $39. I keep it on low all the time and it has a thermostat,keeps the 26X38 ft. space around 55 deg. Also when I turn on the lights,(64) four ft. tube fluorescents,that helps warm things up too. Also notice that the 3hp. DC puts out a lot of warmth.
Herb


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Insulation / heaters , what's that ?


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

RainMan 2.0 said:


> Insulation / heaters , what's that ?


The real PITA is cleaning out the space to have room to put in the insulation. I just don't want to mess with hoisting drywall up to the ceiling. That's a young man's game, a young man with a rented lift that is. 

I like your new saw.


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## Shop guy (Nov 22, 2012)

Sorry, Rick you don't speak insulation or warmth.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Herb Stoops said:


> good idea to frame in the HW heater, but leave the combustion air from the outside. I use one of those oil filled radiant heaters that plug in the wall, around $39. I keep it on low all the time and it has a thermostat,keeps the 26X38 ft. space around 55 deg. Also when I turn on the lights,(64) four ft. tube fluorescents,that helps warm things up too. Also notice that the 3hp. DC puts out a lot of warmth.
> Herb


H Herb. I'm going to put a vent in the frame, a sizable one and leave the vents in the back of the garage open for now. I'd like to figure out a way to transfer some of the water heater heat going up and out the vent pipe. Maybe put some vanes on the pipe and a small blower to pull air across it. I'm leaving the top of the WH frame open to the attic space, so some air can come in through there I know not to let anything combustable come in close proximity to the vent pipe.

I have one of those oil heaters in my office shed, controlled (on/off) by a thermostatic switch. Never lets my computers get below about 44 degrees. It is pretty efficient and puts out more heat than I expected. I want to warm the air, not the tools. I think I'll try the oil type heater. If I can get a little heat off that vent pipe, that should help as well. I don't spend long hours in the garage, just don't want ice cold fingers around those plades.


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## kklowell (Dec 26, 2014)

I was just given a Monitor kerosene heater this weekend...everything except the copper tube that connects the tank (got that too, 275 gallon). It draws air from outside for the combustion chamber... would that kind of thing work for you?
I'll admit to being excited about the heater... it's a good brand, and once I finally get the attic floor and some insulation in there it should have no trouble keeping my shop warm enough.


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## hawkeye10 (Jul 28, 2015)

Tom I heat and cool my shop 24 hours a day. I have a window air conditioner and a small space heater. I also have another space heater that I use when it gets really cold. I can go out there any time and be comfortable. Yes it cost me extra money for electricity but I want to go out there when I want and enjoy myself.


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## kklowell (Dec 26, 2014)

I hope to keep mine at a comfortable working temp all the time too. I wonder if that uses a lot more fuel than heating the shop up from dead cold every time I want to work out there, or if once everything is all warmed up it takes less energy to keep it that way. Especially in an insulated shop.


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## Tonto1 (Nov 10, 2016)

I know you said "no flame," but a friend of mine has a sealed heater that he puts firewood into. It is completely contained & the stove pipe exhaust goes right though his ceiling. He heats his whole house with it, very efficient. You could vent it right through one of your vents. Great way to get rid of scraps as well. I wonder if you can buy a press that you could turn saw dust into those pellets for wood stoves?


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Quenten I think Tom's vents are at or near floor level and a wood stove has to be vented upward. It can go out a wall and then up but at no time can it go downward. It also needs to stick up higher than the peak of the roof otherwise wind swirls going over the peak can cause down drafts. It also should be insulated chimney anywhere near wood and that is stainless double walled pipe that's around $30 per foot. Some wood stoves are set up to pipe up in outside air for combustion but most aren't and get their air from the room they are in. There are no gas lines where I'm at so I burn wood 24/7 from sometime in October until sometime in April.

There are also a couple of wood pellet making plants in our area and they force sawdust through dies at a pressure of about 100,000 psi. At that pressure the lignin in the wood softens and when it cools the pellet shape stays set.


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## kklowell (Dec 26, 2014)

An ad from these people was on Craigslist today... they make and sell pellet mills. Pellet Mill


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Had an AC/heater guy in today and he said I could easily use a gas heater in there, but that will still reqire setting up a vent through the roof. Cost of doing that and the heater will exceed my cost of occasional electric heating until sometime in 2030, by which time I myself expect to have assumed room temperature. So it's electric heat for me, and likely an oil-filled radiator heater, plugged in through a remote control so I can turn heat on and off at will. If I were in there full time, I would ocnsider the wood pellet unit.


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## sunnybob (Apr 3, 2015)

Tom, forget about getting your moneys worth, at our ages that will never happen. Buy a an electric split air con unit. Heat in the winter, cool air in the summer. I know you dont suffer much from damp, but if its a cold wet day the a/c can be used as a dehumidifier to save the tools from rust.
No flame, no mainatenance, no worries.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

sunnybob said:


> Tom, forget about getting your moneys worth, at our ages that will never happen. Buy a an electric split air con unit. Heat in the winter, cool air in the summer. I know you dont suffer much from damp, but if its a cold wet day the a/c can be used as a dehumidifier to save the tools from rust.
> No flame, no mainatenance, no worries.


Don't know anything about those. What should I be looking for?


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## sunnybob (Apr 3, 2015)

Did a quick surf and found this which is the system I mean, but may not be the ideal one for your space.
GREE High Efficiency 12,000 BTU 1 Ton Ductless Mini Split Air Conditioner with Heat, Inverter and Remote - 208-230V/60Hz-RIO12HP230V1B - The Home Depot

One unit inside, one outside. My house has 6 of this type, one in each bedroom and two in the living area. No muss or fuss. I can cool the bedrooms down in high summer, and heat them up very quickly in winter.
Not the cheapest option, but like i said, we are too old to start looking for returns on money spent on comfort.


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## difalkner (Jan 3, 2012)

DesertRatTom said:


> Don't know anything about those. What should I be looking for?


Gree is a good unit and they make mini-splits for a dozen companies who put their own name on them. Mitsibushi is probably the most well known but at nearly a grand more in cost - not worth it to me.



sunnybob said:


> Did a quick surf and found this which is the system I mean, but may not be the ideal one for your space.
> GREE High Efficiency 12,000 BTU 1 Ton Ductless Mini Split Air Conditioner with Heat, Inverter and Remote - 208-230V/60Hz-RIO12HP230V1B - The Home Depot
> 
> One unit inside, one outside. My house has 6 of this type, one in each bedroom and two in the living area. No muss or fuss. I can cool the bedrooms down in high summer, and heat them up very quickly in winter.
> Not the cheapest option, but like i said, we are too old to start looking for returns on money spent on comfort.


We put the Gree mini-split in our shop (two-car garage) three years ago and it has been simply awesome! Ours is the one ton high SEER (22) and it's been on 24/7 since installed (the one at HD referenced above is the 16 SEER unit). Ours uses less energy at 7.5 full load amps than my wife's hair dryer but it keeps our insulated shop very comfortable. We have not seen an increase in our electric bill at all but our garage is attached so the mini-split is probably helping the whole house unit perform better (we leave the door into the garage from the utility room open most of the time). We're in north Louisiana but regularly see temps in the mid 20's to low 30's in Winter and mid 90's to low 100's in the Summer and the shop is on the west side of the house.

One caveat, though - I was planning on doing the install myself until i learned that the warranty is void unless the unit is installed by a licensed tech. So i hired it out and they did a great job and only took one day; it would have taken me several days and probably a dozen trips to Lowe's.


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## tomp913 (Mar 7, 2014)

I have a mini-split to heat/cool my garage and am really pleased with it. I bought a Mitsubishi, but a friend has a Gree and swears by it.

I used a kerosene torpedo heater for years but the smell got to me and was looking for other options, even looking at radiant heating - 2x4 sleepers on their side on the concrete with the plastic tubing snaked between them and plywood on top. I was getting ready to pull the trigger on that system when I "found" the mini-split.

For installation, all you need is a concrete pad outside to set the compressor on (I set mine on a frame to keep it out of the snow), a 3" dia hole through the wall for the control wiring and the two copper lines (the 3" hole is at the bottom right of the unit, had to be off-center to the window to miss the double studs) and a 220V line to the outside unit. I don't remember exactly, but I think that the operating cost was less than $100 per month during the coldest months here in the Baltimore area. Regardless of the cost (to some point, but $!00 doesn't seem bad), being able to just walk out there and walk into a 65 °F shop when the outside temperature is in the 20's is well worth it.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Nice install Tom . I'm wondering if they work in colder climates though? I certainly don't need 70F in my garage , but something above freezing would be great


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## sunnybob (Apr 3, 2015)

Rick, they are essentially just reversible fridge units. They heat or cool the room depending on which way you switch them. as long as there is air flow around the outside unit they will work.


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## tomp913 (Mar 7, 2014)

RainMan 2.0 said:


> Nice install Tom . I'm wondering if they work in colder climates though? I certainly don't need 70F in my garage , but something above freezing would be great


The ambient operating range varies somewhat for each brand/unit - manufacturers make units with varying efficiencies (and costs to suit). I went with the Mitsubishi unit because of the high SEER rating and the fact that it is supposed to provide heat at an outside ambient temperature of -13 °F - although, hopefully, it will never get that cold here in Maryland. My friend's Gree has, I believe, a rating of -4 °F; he has been very pleased with it's performance to date and would buy another although he's happy with his Daiken units too.


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## mgmine (Jan 16, 2012)

Your cheapest and best choice would be the radiant tube that Cherryville chuck suggested. No venting and instant heat. As for the hot water heater no outside vent should be required for that as long as you leave a gap at the door bottom. If you have a dryer in the area you could also use the heat generated from it. There is a special vent that is available.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

mgmine said:


> ...As for the hot water heater no outside vent should be required for that as long as you leave a gap at the door bottom.
> 
> If you have a dryer in the area you could also use the heat generated from it. There is a special vent that is available.


Thanks. I will enclose the water heater with a vent on the enclosure. That will make it easier to install the drywall.

Never thought about redirecting the heat from the dryer. It is gas, much cheaper to operate here in the P.R.O.C. (Peoples' Republic of California), than electricity. Great idea. Just vent it into the garage and no filter needed if I'm not drying clothes. The insulation should hold in a lot of that heat. I just don't want it bitterly cold in the winter. I'll put in another WEN dust filter to circulate the warm air, or at least a fan. Great suggestion.

Maybe I'll make big a filter box at the end of the dryer hose to capture lint since I'm going to vent it to the inside.


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

Tom ,you might consider the moisture from the dryer if venting it into the shop.
Herb


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## billyjim (Feb 11, 2012)

mgmine said:


> Your cheapest and best choice would be the radiant tube that Cherryville chuck suggested. No venting and instant heat. As for the hot water heater no outside vent should be required for that as long as you leave a gap at the door bottom. If you have a dryer in the area you could also use the heat generated from it. There is a special vent that is available.


In addition, if you want some instant spot heat, get a set of Halogen work lights. I have mine clamped to the top of a 6' ladder and not only do I get very good light but I also get quite a bit of heat from the lamps.


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## Ray Newman (Mar 9, 2009)

Herb Stoops: BINGO!


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## JFPNCM (Dec 13, 2009)

I've been using oil filled heaters for several years now and am very hapy with the results. I typically replace them about every 3-4 years more out of paranoia as one has never failed. They can be recycled in Oreogn as well.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Herb Stoops said:


> Tom ,you might consider the moisture from the dryer if venting it into the shop.
> Herb


 @Herb Stoops I would run it without clothing so the air will be dry and no new lint. We're so dry here that moisture condensation is never a problem.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

These might be an option for you too Tom. Quartz Overhead Radiant Heater - Lee Valley Tools They'll be easy to wire in before you finish the ceiling. There are several advantages to radiant heating. No air movement is one. They won't redistribute dust and that can be important when you are finishing because you need the heat but don't want dust.

The rest of the shop could be almost freezing but if you are standing in the radiant stream you'll feel warm. Your tools will also be warm because they are absorbing the radiant energy. Because air has low mass it doesn't absorb much energy directly. The air mostly gets warmed by convected heat coming off the objects in the room.

Any type of centralized heat requires a fan and fans create drafts so even though the air may be warm you still can feel cold. Convected heat like baseboard heaters is better but still require air movement to work.

With 2 or 3 of these small units you can point them at your workstations so that those spots get the most heat. The units are cheap but use about 12 amps at full power so I don't know how that will translate in cost. I was going to put in a propane heater in my basement but the gal we just bought our new wood burning fireplace insert from said that propane and electric here are roughly the same price and I already had electric baseboard units.

Out of curiosity Tom what is an average summer night time temperature for you? It cools off here at night down into the 60s at least even when our daytime temps are around 100. If yours do too then you may not need cooling with the new insulation. I don't.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> ...Out of curiosity Tom what is an average summer night time temperature for you? It cools off here at night down into the 60s at least even when our daytime temps are around 100. If yours do too then you may not need cooling with the new insulation. I don't.


 @Cherryville Chuck During summer, we cool down 30-35 degrees, so our evening and night time temps are in the 70 degree range. Quite comfortable, and the insulation should hold the daytime temps in the garage to the 80s or lower without much cooling. A fan will really help then. 

Winter is the really bad time here, with temps from below freezing to the high 40s. Wind is a major factor outdoors--really cold. So heating is the first problem. AC is comparatively easy to set up once insulation is in place. Might have to run an extra circuit for the AC though. Thing is, I only need heat or AC for short periods of time. Thanks to this group, I think I have a starting point.


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## MYB506 (Dec 5, 2012)

If you enclose the gas water heater you must have vents at both the bottom and top of the enclosure. Do not alter the vent to capture heat. If you cool down the flue gas you will get condensation running down the vent which will quickly rot it out. If it's a natural draft water heater you will also get fumes spilling out the draft hood because the heater is designed to have a specific flue gas temperature to make it vent naturally. You also need to provide 24" access (by code) to all serviceable parts of the appliance.

Regarding your space heating, I worked in the business for 39 years and when I built my shop I knew I wanted gas-fired radiant tube heating. It's what most commercial shops use because of insurance regulations (no open flames as you said). The main reason I wanted it was so I could leave the shop just above freezing when not in use but could quickly heat it up when I needed it. I have a 20 foot tube at 80,000 BTUH and it provides instant heat. It's -23 celsius where I am this morning and it will only take about 15 minutes to make it comfortable enough to take my coat off and get to work. 

The other advantage of the radiant tube heater is it makes finishing so much easier. If I'm painting or varnishing I just lay the work pieces under the heater and turn it on. The finish dries in no time and is dry before any dust gets a chance to settle on it. I even use this in the summer although it gets to hot to stay in the shop even with all the windows and doors open. I got this idea when I was doing some work in a MDF manufacturing plant. They made some sheet goods that were painted or had fake wood grain finishes on them. I watch these sheets getting sprayed then going through an infrared heater on a conveyor and coming out the other end completely dry and ready for shipping.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

MYB506 said:


> If you enclose the gas water heater you must have vents at both the bottom and top of the enclosure. Do not alter the vent to capture heat. If you cool down the flue gas you will get condensation running down the vent which will quickly rot it out. If it's a natural draft water heater you will also get fumes spilling out the draft hood because the heater is designed to have a specific flue gas temperature to make it vent naturally. You also need to provide 24" access (by code) to all serviceable parts of the appliance.
> 
> Regarding your space heating, I worked in the business for 39 years and when I built my shop I knew I wanted gas-fired radiant tube heating. It's what most commercial shops use because of insurance regulations (no open flames as you said). The main reason I wanted it was so I could leave the shop just above freezing when not in use but could quickly heat it up when I needed it. I have a 20 foot tube at 80,000 BTUH and it provides instant heat. It's -23 celsius where I am this morning and it will only take about 15 minutes to make it comfortable enough to take my coat off and get to work.
> 
> The other advantage of the radiant tube heater is it makes finishing so much easier. If I'm painting or varnishing I just lay the work pieces under the heater and turn it on. The finish dries in no time and is dry before any dust gets a chance to settle on it. I even use this in the summer although it gets to hot to stay in the shop even with all the windows and doors open. I got this idea when I was doing some work in a MDF manufacturing plant. They made some sheet goods that were painted or had fake wood grain finishes on them. I watch these sheets getting sprayed then going through an infrared heater on a conveyor and coming out the other end completely dry and ready for shipping.


 @MYB506 Thanks for the information on the venting and access. I have a recirculating pump on top of the heater that keeps warm water moving through the pipes that will need replacement every few years, so I'll put a very tall door on the enclosure, and make the door wide enough to allow replacing the water heater some day. I could vent in through the outside wall, which should be fairly easy to do. Put in a screen to keep the bugs out. 

The space above the heater is open to what will be the attic space (opening is about 3x3 ft), and I plan to keep that open. Will that serve as the upper vent? The attic has a vent on the end, and the heater's flu goes through the roof. That would allow air flow without adding cold air to the garage. Or must I put a vent high on the wall of the enclosure, open to the garage? 

The other option would be to put vents at the top and bottom of the door, would that comply? That would be the easiest solution if it's legal. I lived in an apartment years ago that only had door vents. 

On the heater. Gas fired radient heater sounds good. It will be easy to install a T on the dryer gas connection to run to the burner. Didn't realize there was such a thing. I would have to have a vent installed through the roof, right? That's above my paygrade. 

I'm only using this heater 2-3 times per week for a couple of hours at a time. Most of my shop is in a shed outback, the garage is really only for milling wood to size using jointer, planer and bandsaw for resawing. Electric heat would be far easier to install, and I can tap into an existing additional line that powers my evaporative cooler. Electric is far more expensive per hour, but the initial cost of a radiant gas system and installation will be fairly steep. 

Given that, is a an electric radient heater a good option? If I can heat the garage to 65-70 degrees in an hour or so, I will be happy.

Hum. Complicaitons regarding money...that is always a factor, isn't it.


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## MYB506 (Dec 5, 2012)

The purpose of the upper vent when a gas appliance is enclosed is to allow some place for gas to escape if a leak was to occur. So if I understand correctly, the enclosure will be open to the attic, which is vented, so you should be OK. The bottom vent is to allow combustion air to the appliance.

A radiant tube heater doesn't need to vent through the roof, it is power vented so can go through the wall. They use 40,000 BTU/hour per 10 feet of length, which is all you would need. This would heat you up in no time. However, your dryer piping is likely 1/2" so it wouldn't have the capacity to add this to. 

I joined this site several years ago but got locked out when all the passwords were reset last summer and after several new password attempts I could never get logged in again so I have re-registered and as a consequence can't post a url link. But search for Schwank radiant heaters and look for their garage/workshop model to see what I'm talking about.


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## DonkeyHody (Jan 22, 2015)

kklowell said:


> I wonder if that uses a lot more fuel than heating the shop up from dead cold every time I want to work out there, or if once everything is all warmed up it takes less energy to keep it that way. Especially in an insulated shop.


It's complicated . . .

The technical answer is Yes, it takes more energy to keep it warm than it does to warm it back up after it gets cold. Heat loss through the walls and ceiling, no matter how well insulated, is still driven by the difference in temperature between one side of the wall/ceiling and the other side. The bigger the difference, the more heat moves from one side to the other. 

HOWEVER, If you are using a less dollar-efficient ($/BTU) method to heat it back up fast than the method you use to maintain temperature, you could spend more dollars warming it back up. For example, where outdoor temperatures favor the use of heat pumps, they are much more efficient users of electricity than electric resistance heat. So, if you turn a heat pump down at night and then crank the T-stat up in the morning, the electric resistance heat strips in the unit come on to heat the area quickly.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

MYB506 said:


> The other advantage of the radiant tube heater is it makes finishing so much easier. If I'm painting or varnishing I just lay the work pieces under the heater and turn it on. The finish dries in no time and is dry before any dust gets a chance to settle on it.


I've had it dry finishes so quickly it caused problems and I had to wait for the heater to shut off. It can shorten open time in glue ups as well. Mine is also a Schwank but 30' long. Combustion air comes from the attic in my shop so it has no effect on the air pressure inside the shop.


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## MYB506 (Dec 5, 2012)

Yes you can cook the finish if you leave it too long. I leave it under the tube until it's just dry to the touch then shut the heater off. I don't actually have the heater on much while I'm working in the shop. I turn it on for 5 to 10 minutes which heats it up enough for me. I also ran the combustion air duct up into the attic which works great.


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## crewzer (Jul 1, 2015)

I installed a Mitsubishi mini-split model MSZ-FH09NA in my shop. It's super efficient and VERY quiet. Useful features include SMARTSET, which allows you to set the heat function down to 50F, and POWERFUL, which is a 15-minuted timed function to quickly warm up or cool down the conditioned space. I use it's dehumification mode in the summer.

HTH,
Jim / crewzer


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Welcome to the forum Crewzer.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Welcome to the forum Jim


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## SaraR2018 (May 2, 2018)

DesertRatTom said:


> We get a windfall in January and I'm finally going to have the garage ceiling insulated and drywalled. I have my wood milling tools out there and it gets too cold or too hot in there depending on the season. I'm putting in the insulation (R38) but hiring the drywall done.
> 
> I'd like some feedback on a couple of questions.
> 
> ...


Definitely insulation is the best. Keeping your garage cool starts with proper insulation, and the area that requires the most attention is the garage door. It’s important to purchase insulation that’s compatible with the type of door you have. 

For a more energy efficient and permanent solution consider a through-the wall-unit or, even better, a mini split unit. Many through-the-wall and mini split units offer heating in addition to cooling. Mini split units are energy efficient and quiet making them the best overall choice.


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

SaraR2018 said:


> Definitely insulation is the best. Keeping your garage cool starts with proper insulation, and the area that requires the most attention is the garage door. It’s important to purchase insulation that’s compatible with the type of door you have.
> 
> For a more energy efficient and permanent solution consider a through-the wall-unit or, even better, a mini split unit. Many through-the-wall and mini split units offer heating in addition to cooling. Mini split units are energy efficient and quiet making them the best overall choice.


I have heard a lot about the mini Split, where does the condensation go, or do they have to be mounted on an outside wall with a pipe through the wall? I have seen them mounted on insde walls is why I ask.

Herb


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## tomp913 (Mar 7, 2014)

Herb,

A 3-1/2" hole drilled through the wall behind the unit allows the copper feed and return lines, the controls wires and a condensate drain line be fed to the outside. The photo shows these lines feeding through the wall before being hooked up - the drain line is the one on the left. I ran mine in a plastic chase that runs down the wall, I would imagine that you would have to run a similar chase to the outside when the unit is on an inside wall - and provide the correct pitch on the drain line so it would drain correctly.


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## hawkeye10 (Jul 28, 2015)

tomp913 said:


> Herb,
> 
> A 3-1/2" hole drilled through the wall behind the unit allows the copper feed and return lines, the controls wires and a condensate drain line be fed to the outside. The photo shows these lines feeding through the wall before being hooked up - the drain line is the one on the left. I ran mine in a plastic chase that runs down the wall, I would imagine that you would have to run a similar chase to the outside when the unit is on an inside wall - and provide the correct pitch on the drain line so it would drain correctly.


That is a neat looking installation Tom. I really like to work in the shop when it's 63* winter or summer. I don't always get that. It's always comfortable when I go out there. I can deal with the cold a lot better than the heat and humidity. I have a window AC unit for cooling and a small heater setting on one of my workbenches. If it gets down into the teens at night with the small heater running it will get down to 55* by mourning, so I will go out and cut on another little heater for a while. I don't trust this heater to run it all night. I also keep them clean by using the shop vac often.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

I had the garage insulated and dry walled last Fall or so. Also insulated the metal door, but also put some thermal reflective material up on the inside of the door before putting up the foam, then another reflective layer on the outside. Sealed it all in with aluminum duct tape. The ceiling got R38 insulation between the ceiling joists. But before that, had the thermal reflective material put up on the underside of the plywood of the roof. Thie R value of the material is just R4 or so, but reading the temperature of the ceiling, there was nearly a 40 degree difference between the the thermal reflective area vs the raw plywood. A thermostatically controlled attic fan set to 110 degrees rarely runs.

Since the drywall was already up on the walls, I had about R13 blown in, but if there were no drywall, I'd put in the thermal material, then the insulation. 

The reason I detailed this is that here in the desert, all that insulation keept the garage comfortable all winter and now as summer comes on, not bad out there--unless I open the door to get the car out. With all that insulation, I'm unlikely to need much of an AC to keep the place cool, and an electric heater should make it nice during a colder winter. 

I think the secret sauce is the the thermal reflective material. It adds cost, but what a difference it makes. You can buy it in a variety of sizes. For my sheds, I just used the 48 inch wide, 25 foot rolls from HD. But the garage installers special ordered 24 inch wide rolls. It took about 2 hours to staple it in place on the ceiling. In my sheds, I cut the thermal reflective material to the needed width, stapled it up and taped the pieces together between studs with aluminum duct tape. Added batt insulation then dry wall. Ceiling in the big shed has uneven spacing of 2x8 joists, so I had to cut width to size. 

I used 2 inch foam sheets cut to exact fit sizes to insulate the ceiling. I never drywalled the ceiling in the shop, but the tight fitting foam gets the job done. I could still put in some batt or even blown-in insulation up there, but I'm just not up to that chore these days. I just use two heaters during winter and a fairly good sized window mount AC, installed through the wall for summer. I might have someone put an AC in the garage this summer if it's really needed. I don't really spend a lot of time in that area.


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

DesertRatTom said:


> H Herb. I'm going to put a vent in the frame, a sizable one and leave the vents in the back of the garage open for now. I'd like to figure out a way to transfer some of the water heater heat going up and out the vent pipe. Maybe put some vanes on the pipe and a small blower to pull air across it. I'm leaving the top of the WH frame open to the attic space, so some air can come in through there I know not to let anything combustable come in close proximity to the vent pipe.
> 
> I have one of those oil heaters in my office shed, controlled (on/off) by a thermostatic switch. Never lets my computers get below about 44 degrees. It is pretty efficient and puts out more heat than I expected. I want to warm the air, not the tools. I think I'll try the oil type heater. If I can get a little heat off that vent pipe, that should help as well. I don't spend long hours in the garage, just don't want ice cold fingers around those plades.


Hi tom, I wonder if this could be rigged up to run the HW flue through to tap into the heat? 
Sears.com

Herb


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## SaraR2018 (May 2, 2018)

Herb Stoops said:


> I have heard a lot about the mini Split, where does the condensation go, or do they have to be mounted on an outside wall with a pipe through the wall? I have seen them mounted on insde walls is why I ask.
> 
> Herb


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Herb, I remember someone remarking on this idea that I shouldn't modify the WH vent and pipe in any way. My memory is faint, but I think the pipe is designed to encourage hot air flow so it doesn't build up in the burner area. So I left it alone.

One other minor thing, I had the drywallers put an access hatch near the attic fan. The one that vents the other end of the attic usually needs replacement every couple of years and is a painful chore to get to.

I've given some thought to having the radiant barrier in the rest of the attic (a 1,500 buck project). I think it would cut cooling and heating costs and pay for itself in 4-5 years, if I last that long.


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

DesertRatTom said:


> Herb, I remember someone remarking on this idea that I shouldn't modify the WH vent and pipe in any way. My memory is faint, but I think the pipe is designed to encourage hot air flow so it doesn't build up in the burner area. So I left it alone.
> 
> One other minor thing, I had the drywallers put an access hatch near the attic fan. The one that vents the other end of the attic usually needs replacement every couple of years and is a painful chore to get to.
> 
> I've given some thought to having the radiant barrier in the rest of the attic (a 1,500 buck project). I think it would cut cooling and heating costs and pay for itself in 4-5 years, if I last that long.


The post on not installing the heat exchanger on the water heater flue, I agree with as the WH exaust consists of CO2+H2O,and cooling would cause the H2O to condense out and run back into the HW heater. This one is for the Dryer exhaust vent to capture heat that is normally vented to the outside.
Herb


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