# Gluing a staircase



## doddy (Feb 24, 2010)

Hi, after making my first staircase following the tutorial video from RWS it's time to put it all together. I've done a dry fit to make sure everything is right, so now I need to know what is the procedure for final gluing. Do I glue every rebate/rabbet, and the wedges where they will touch the strings treads/riser.

Regards


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Steve

That's the neat thing about the RWS staircase no glue needed, the wedges will do all the work, a small brad nail will hold the wedges in place if you want to make sure..but most of the time you don't need a brad nail.. 


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doddy said:


> Hi, after making my first staircase following the tutorial video from RWS it's time to put it all together. I've done a dry fit to make sure everything is right, so now I need to know what is the procedure for final gluing. Do I glue every rebate/rabbet, and the wedges where they will touch the strings treads/riser.
> 
> Regards


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## doddy (Feb 24, 2010)

Thanks for that Bob, 
I was sure I had read somewhere that the stairs were glued together. I know the RWS video says no machanical fixings but I just took that to mean nails or screws.
So everything is locked together with rebates on the strings, treads and risers and all held in place by the wedges.
My mind is struggling to compute the simplicity of this, and my safety concience is worried about people kicking the risers and it collapsing. But if this is the tried and tested method of stair fixing it will do for me.
I bet every time I walk up or down the stairs I will have a pull on the string, to make sure it's still solid. lol

Cheers


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## gav (Oct 12, 2009)

If you're really concerned, surely there is no harm in applying some glue ?


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Steve

Do this just for kicks, take your test boards and drive in a wedge or two and try and get it to move, if it's glued the squeals will show up, the glue is like "machanical fixings" so to speak ,,, the lumber is always on the move and the wedge will take up the slop so to speak...because it's wood also..think of it like a plank on a ship . 


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doddy said:


> Thanks for that Bob,
> I was sure I had read somewhere that the stairs were glued together. I know the RWS video says no machanical fixings but I just took that to mean nails or screws.
> So everything is locked together with rebates on the strings, treads and risers and all held in place by the wedges.
> My mind is struggling to compute the simplicity of this, and my safety concience is worried about people kicking the risers and it collapsing. But if this is the tried and tested method of stair fixing it will do for me.
> ...


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## doddy (Feb 24, 2010)

Hi Bob,
yes I see your point about glue being a kind of machanical fixing, as wood needs to expand and contract. So theoretically construction should be completed without any central heating on, so that the wood has contracted, and when the wedges are in place the only thing that can happen is expantion, thus tightening the joints.
I haven't worked on ships with wooden decks only steel, but might have come close to walking a plank, if you get my drift.

Regards


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## jlord (Nov 16, 2009)

Custom stair builders use glue or adhesive & even pocket screw the risers to the treads on the underside. I do have some friends in this profession. If underside of stairs will show with a finish they do not use pocket screws where they will show. 

While the wedges tighten everything up they will move over time if not glued up. The squeaks in stairs come from nails working loose over time. That's where the glue & adhesive come in. The trim stage in construction Should start after the house has HVAC running so as to stabilize the environment. Trim carpenters do not like to run trim when house is cold. You can do some research on this.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Doddy

" walking a plank, if you get my drift." Yes I do I have been out on the plank many times 

If I recall Bob R. and Rick R. have a video on making the open type steps also a great one but the closed type is the best I think but sometimes you don't want all the mass to show..

I will say once the glue drys out it's free to move and the glue will dry out in time.. 

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doddy said:


> Hi Bob,
> yes I see your point about glue being a kind of machanical fixing, as wood needs to expand and contract. So theoretically construction should be completed without any central heating on, so that the wood has contracted, and when the wedges are in place the only thing that can happen is expantion, thus tightening the joints.
> I haven't worked on ships with wooden decks only steel, but might have come close to walking a plank, if you get my drift.
> 
> Regards


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## Ghidrah (Oct 21, 2008)

You beat me to it jlord, everything shrinks over time, as it dries out in a heated and moisture controlled environment.

My 1st set came in the late 80s when I worked for a remodeler, (read finish carpenter). He had little framing experience, (hard to figure since his farther was a framer) and I had no finish stair experience. Roland was good and and wicked fast. He glued, (also with PL 200), wedged and nailed and hid the nails whenever possible when not they were plugged with colored wood putty before stained and or polyed.

All the condos I ever worked in on the Cape were done during the winter, the plasterers would come in with 5 or 6 200,000 BTU heaters, (only way to get the plaster to work and cure) crank them up and do 6 months worth of dry out times in a couple days. This tech warped all the framing horribly. Most of the lumber came from Canada so the framing was often frozen with water.

I remember all the finish carpenters complaning, when the plasterers left and the unit went cold again all the work looked like crap as everything shrunk back up.


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## jlord (Nov 16, 2009)

Squeaks in staircases come from the movement of wood which over time causes the nails to work loose. The squeaking is the nail rubbing the wood. From the professional stair builders I know & any stair building book you read all have a common theme "Glue & Screw". If the fact that glue drying out was the problem for stair squeaks then all the wide panels, laminated table tops, or any project that has wood butted & glued together would simply fall apart. We all know that if glued properly that just a simple butt joint on a table top or a center panel is pretty strong. 

For a closed stringer using wedges you should glue the wedges in to keep them there or they will loosen up as the wood moves with the seasons. Screws provide very good clamping power & have proven to stay put over time when used with glue on staircases. For screws that show such as on the treads, they are usually recessed & a plug is glued in to disguise the screw. A good adhesive for this application is PL400 & tightbond 3. Do a Google search or pick up any stair building book to find these proven techniques.


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## doddy (Feb 24, 2010)

Thanks for the heads up James,
so are you saying it's just the wedges that are glued in.
Regards


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## jlord (Nov 16, 2009)

doddy said:


> Thanks for the heads up James,
> so are you saying it's just the wedges that are glued in.
> Regards


The wedges get plenty of glue as it won't be seen from the front. The treads aren't usually glued to the tops of the risers as glue drips could ruin a finish. You can glue & screw glue blocks from behind where they are not seen. You can also use pocket screws to fasten the risers to the treads from behind as you build. You will also find use of 8d finish nails for attachment in places. Strategy depends on you application. 

Stair builders are to trim carpentry as eye surgeons are to doctors. It is a specialized area in trim carpentry. Not all trim carpenters can build stairs. I know some that fit this category. But that,s not to say you can't do it yourself. It just requires more math & patients & planning as it is tedious work. Following the right techniques you will have squeak free stairs for many many years. Don't know how big your stairs are going to be but for a few steps it's not that hard but the techniques are still the same for trouble free stairs. I would suggest picking up a book such as:

Taunton's Building Stairs For Pros by Pros. The editors of Fine Homebuilding wrote this one. 


Taunton's Building Stairs For Pros By Pros Builder-Tested/ Code Approved By Andy Engle.

Constructing Staircases, Balustrades & Landings By William P. Spense.

These are just a few out there & they will be easy to understand. I don't know what type of books are available where you live. You should also be able to find a lot of info on the web. Someone probably has a youtube video on the subject.


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## tdublyou (Jan 8, 2010)

Doddy,
As one of those trim carpenters that has built a few staircases and repaired more of them than I can count. I have to respectfully disagree with Bob :sad:, and wholeheartedly agree with James on this topic.
Everything James said is true. Glue glue and more glue along with strategically placed screws and glue blocks will keep your stairs quiet for years to come.
I built one in my own house 15 years ago using these techniques and to this day it has NEVER squeaked.

Tim


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Doddy

I guess I must agree, fill it up with all the glue you can and all the screws and nails that it can take on....I'm sure it will hold for a long time..just to be on the safe side ,glue and screw some 2 x 4 blocks in place.
Just to be on the real safe side, box it in and call the cement truck up and fill it up with about 4 yards of concrete under the stairs..that will do the trick..I'm sure.. 

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## Ghidrah (Oct 21, 2008)

Most or all of the squeak you hear in a stair run comes from the middle stringers. Most outer stringers are fixed to wall or are supported by a stud wall below. 

Solid blocking between stringers minimizes and in many cases can prevent deflection in the middle stringers just like bridging or solid blocking minimizes flex in floor joists.


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## doddy (Feb 24, 2010)

Thanks James and Tim, for your expertise in this area. I must point out that I am not building a feature staircase out of oak, (that will be in the future) so although I need it to be strong and squeek free, the trim will not be that critical. It is for access to my cellar, the width of the staircase is 30" with 11 risers, I just needed clarification on whether to glue or not.

Bob I understand where your coming from, I probably would have been better of putting some shuttering up and doing a concrete pour, or better still move into a bungalow.

Thanks to everyone.


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## Ghidrah (Oct 21, 2008)

If they're just going into the basement I'd use 2X10 spruce for treads, never heard a squeak from them in 29 yrs. Just make sure you remove that measure off the bottom of the bottom tread.


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## jlord (Nov 16, 2009)

doddy said:


> Thanks James and Tim, for your expertise in this area. I must point out that I am not building a feature staircase out of oak, (that will be in the future) so although I need it to be strong and squeek free, the trim will not be that critical. It is for access to my cellar, the width of the staircase is 30" with 11 risers, I just needed clarification on whether to glue or not.
> 
> Bob I understand where your coming from, I probably would have been better of putting some shuttering up and doing a concrete pour, or better still move into a bungalow.
> 
> Thanks to everyone.


When you build the stairs for the cellar I suggest framing up a 2x4 jack midway to give some support to your stringers. It's like a short framed wall mid way. It will help take out any bounce you might get. They will feel a little safer.

When you do your oak staircase in the future a better stringer is made from 3/4" ply laminated together for a stringer that is 1-1/2" wide. Read up on this. It will be more stable as it does not move like stringers made from 2x12 framing lumber. 

When you see a set of stairs where the front edge of the treads are sloping down it's because stringers contract & expand more where the top of the riser & leading edge of the tread meet. There is not much stinger material left in this area. This is not always a noticeable problem all the time. But I have repaired a few over the years. That's one reason the technique of laminating 3/4" ply is used. It just makes for a more stable stringer.

For your cellar framing lumber should provide many years of service & give some experience when you tackle the oak staircase.


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## laxknut (Oct 17, 2008)

Standard wood glues should not be used in stairway construction, doing so will, in most cases result in "musical stairs" over time. I will assume your stairway is interior, and a "waterproof" glue such as Titebond 3 is again, not really necessary. When working for customers who have no objection to off-gassing of VOCs in their home, i use low VOC PL400 or 200 to hold my shims in place. These glues remain elastic when cured, which is crucial for non-musical stairs.
When I build stairways I offer a lifetime "squeak" guarantee, which customers appreciate.


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## doddy (Feb 24, 2010)

Thanks Bill, very useful bit of info. It's the small details that make this forum great.


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