# More sliding fence box joint issues



## CharlesWebster (Nov 24, 2015)

Other than the dust collection issues discussed in yesterday's thread, the sliding fence/box joint jig is working well.

Except that the tear-out on both entry and exit sides of the notches makes the workpiece unusable.

The jig is set up to cut 0.490" (cutter dia.) X 0.466" (thickness of nom. 1/2" ply) pegs and notches. The pegs fit the notches and everything meshes OK, except for the tear-out.

Thinking that the issue was with the quality of the shop-grade ply, I tried some high-quality ply this afternoon. Same result.

So, maybe it's the laminations and the cross ply grain. So I tried on some straight-grain hemlock. Same results or even worse. As you can see from the first two pix, the tear-out even broke one of the pegs off the work piece. (second and third photos)

So, I tried on some red oak scrap I had laying around. Success! (first photo)

But I need to make box joints for drawer boxes for my vintage trailer restoration, and I don't want to have to use hardwood for drawer boxes.

Clamping the work to the sliding fence makes no difference, putting a backer board behind the work makes no difference. 

What am I doing wrong?


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

clean, replace or get your cutter sharpened...
use sacrificial layers of wood front and back... 
stop using plywood that has dried out or is from the pacific/asian rim or south America...


----------



## CharlesWebster (Nov 24, 2015)

cutter is brand new

sacrificial layers don't help

the first try today used expensive 9-ply birch

third try used solid softwood

I understand the plywood quality issue, but why does this happen on hemlock?


----------



## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

It would help if you showed a picture of your set up (With the router turned off) of how you are cutting them. Also are you drawing the piece back thru the bit after the cut? How about the speed of the router does it sound good when it cuts ,or is it bogging down? Another thing I question is that you are cutting side grain and not end grain, that is quite IFY.

Herb


----------



## Ray Newman (Mar 9, 2009)

My SWAG (Scientific Wild Arsed Guess) 'bout the fingers breaking off, is a result of the grain direction. Plus, hemlock is s a soft wood with tendency to split and chip.

Read what Herb posted 'bout grain direction. On the scrap that you utilized, the grain runs horizontally and the resulting fingers would not be very strong, tending to break along the grain. Have a feeling that if you had the grain held vertically, then cut the joints, the resulting work would be stronger..

Also think a spiral bit would work better.


----------



## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Do you have the workpiece clamped to the sacrificial piece? The only times I've ever had issues with tear out like that is when they aren't tight together.


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

cutter is brand new
*who made it...
*
sacrificial layers don't help
*if you have them clamped together tightly they don't...*

the first try today used expensive 9-ply birch
*expensive means little..
origin means more...*

third try used solid softwood
*and???*

I understand the plywood quality issue, but why does this happen on hemlock?
*you don't say which hemlock you are using but it's the nature of hemlock to be brittle and splinter..*


*Eastern Hemlock
*
Color/Appearance: Heartwood is light reddish brown. Sapwood may be slightly lighter in color but usually isn’t distinguished from the heartwood. The conspicuous growth rings can exhibit interesting grain patterns on flatsawn surfaces.

Grain/Texture: Grain is generally straight, but may be interlocked or spiraled. Has a coarse, uneven texture.

Endgrain: Resin canals absent; earlywood to latewood transition ranges from moderately abrupt to gradual, color contrast fairly high; tracheid diameter medium-large.

Rot Resistance: Rated as non-durable regarding decay resistance, and also susceptible to insect attack.

*Workability: Working properties are intermediate. The wood tends to splinter easily when being worked, and tends to plane poorly. Also, because of the disparity between the soft earlywood and the hard latewood, sanding can create dips and uneven surfaces. Glues, stains, and finishes well.
*
Odor: No characteristic odor.

Allergies/Toxicity: Eastern Hemlock has been reported to cause skin irritation. See the articles Wood Allergies and Toxicity and Wood Dust Safety for more information.

Pricing/Availability: Eastern Hemlock is one of the two primary commercial species of hemlock harvested in North America—with the other being Western Hemlock (Tsuga heterophylla). Hemlock is used primarily as a construction timber, and is in good supply. Expect prices to be moderate for a domestic softwood.

Sustainability: This wood species is not listed in the CITES Appendices or on the IUCN Red List of Threatened Species.

Common Uses: Boxes, pallets, crates, plywood, framing, and other construction purposes.

Comments: In addition to its lumber, Eastern Hemlock is also known for its ornamental value, and hundreds of cultivars are known to exist. Eastern Hemlock is also the state tree of Pennsylvania. Currently, the species is threatened by the hemlock woolly adelgid, a non-native insect that kills infested trees.

When compared to Western Hemlock (Tsuga heterophylla), Eastern Hemlock generally has wider growth rings, though both species can have tightly spaced growth rings.

the other two hemlocks...


----------



## CharlesWebster (Nov 24, 2015)

OK, thanks.

The bit is a no-name bit that came with the router.

I'll cut some pieces and try the end-grain, and will try to find decent ply to try. The problem with that is finding a small piece, I'm not interested in spending $$$ for a sheet of Swedish or Canadian birch ply only to find it didn't work because of some other reason.

I think the first step is to get a new bit and clamp the wood between sacrificial layers. Question, do they have to be the same wood as I'm cutting?

As for Hemlock, it is surely Western Hemlock, since I'm in Oregon.

There's no way I can take an adequate photo of the setup, but there's a diagram on Pg 45 of Bill Hylton's router table book. I'm confident in my setup because the notches and pins line up correctly and would fit well but for the tear out.

Thanks for the suggestions, I'll report back.


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

OK, thanks.
*yur welcome...*

The bit is a no-name bit that came with the router.
*that speaks volumes..*

I'll cut some pieces and try the end-grain, and will try to find decent ply to try. The problem with that is finding a small piece, I'm not interested in spending $$$ for a sheet of Swedish or Canadian birch ply only to find it didn't work because of some other reason.
*have you considered Baltic Birch or Apple Plywood??? both come in small pieces...
States Industries*


I think the first step is to get a new bit 
*I like Freud and many here rave on Whiteside...*

and clamp the wood between sacrificial layers. Question, do they have to be the same wood as I'm cutting?
*no...
doesn't have to be very thick either...*

As for Hemlock, it is surely Western Hemlock, since I'm in Oregon.
*surely you can fin quality USA made ply there...
the data for Western is virtually the same as for Eastern*

There's no way I can take an adequate photo of the setup, but there's a diagram on Pg 45 of Bill Hylton's router table book. I'm confident in my setup because the notches and pins line up correctly and would fit well but for the tear out.
*the tearout isn't because of the jig...*

Thanks for the suggestions, I'll report back.
*I'll stay tuned... *


----------



## mgmine (Jan 16, 2012)

Unless there is some reason that you want to use a box joint, such as making it look authentic you are wasting your time. The traditional old fashion carpenter made drawer could be knocked out in the time it takes to try and sort the problem out. A box joint is not the best joint in the world to use on a drawer. Unlike a dovetail there is not the strength that you get out of the angled pins and tails. I would argue that it is weaker than the traditional carpenter drawer because if the glues weakens then there isn't anything holding it together.


----------



## Knothead47 (Feb 10, 2010)

I tried making dovetails and finger joints, using El Cheapo plywood from the Big Blue Store. It was a disaster! Wrote off using plywood for dovetails or box joints. In the future, I will use quality, solid wood just for the ease of cutting on a TS or router table.


----------



## CharlesWebster (Nov 24, 2015)

I was recommended to use a spiral cutter for this job. I'm confused about "up cutter" and "down cutter" when used in a router table. Since these are blind slots, I think I want a spiral up cutter so it pulls the chips down out of the slot, yes?

Thanks to all for the advice, I'll let you know how I'm doing as it goes.


----------



## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Chas if you are drilling a mortice or blind slot you want an up spiral to move chips out. If you are trimming an edge or using a guide bushing and template and you don't want the top edge ragged then you use a down spiral. If you are going all the way through and you want the bottom side with a clean edge you go up spiral again. If you want both edges clean you use a compression bit (and of course more money for those).


----------



## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

I agree with @Knothead47 and use the Drawerlock bit for all my plywood drawers. It is so simple and does a beautiful job. And the box joints for my solid wood boxes. Plywood does not work for me for dovetails or box joints. 
Herb


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Herb Stoops said:


> I agree with @Knothead47 and use the Drawerlock bit for all my plywood drawers. It is so simple and does a beautiful job. And the box joints for my solid wood boxes. Plywood does not work for me for dovetails or box joints.
> Herb


I gotta disagree w/ you both...
not only that.. GIVE HIM A BREAK...
instead of trying to discourage... encourage...
everybody started someplace...
Chas is just now in his learning curve and he is trying hard to master these box joints...
so he's using them on drawers... he'll move on to plan ''B'' and we'll help him there too...
wanna bet fine box jointed boxes by CW are on the horizon..

and take the easy route on drawer corners.. do the corners w/ rebated rabbets...


----------



## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

I agree with you guys , seeing as plywood is small layers laminated together , it must be a headache not getting tear out . 
I'd love to know how someone pulled this off . Table saw ?


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

RainMan 2.0 said:


> I agree with you guys , seeing as plywood is small layers laminated together , it must be a headache not getting tear out .
> I'd love to know how someone pulled this off . Table saw ?


Rick...
you see the density of layers??
resin based glue has saturated the veneer layers and added to the fiber cohesiveness of the veneers...
they may even be ultrasonically welded making them a close 2nd to solid wood...
could even be HRF cured/welded.... again, making them the other close 2nd to solid wood...

then they are most likely CNC cut w/ spiral or compression bit...

at some point he is going to end up w/ up, down, helix or compression spiral bits... 
each has their place...
*
COMPRESSION bit:
*
The part of the bit closest to the tip is upcut and the other end is downcut... That is why it’s called a compression bit. It compresses the chips into the center of the bit.
It’s great for cutting openings in wood..... This makes it especially great for plywood, laminates and MDF when you need both the top and bottom edges clean. You just have to make sure that the piece of wood you are cutting is thick enough so that both ends of the bit have room to work.....

Spiral Router Bits vs. Straight Router Bits Page 1
Router Bits - Up-Cut, Down-Cut and Now, Quadra-Cut. / Rockler How-to


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

*@CharlesWebster*

these may help you out a bit...


----------



## mgmine (Jan 16, 2012)

Stick486 said:


> I gotta disagree w/ you both...................
> 
> and take the easy route on drawer corners.. do the corners w/ rebated rabbets...


Stick I'm confused I thought that is what he was using the box joints for, hence my reply to make a traditional carpenter's drawer and not use box joints.


----------



## Knothead47 (Feb 10, 2010)

Stick, I read you Lima Charlie. Yes, we all started out sometime in the past. When I got my first lathe, my first turning was a piece of pine and a wood chisel. Not the best way to start but later bought a set of turning tools from HF. Not the best but do the job for me......until I get some $$$$ to buy some better quality tools. Trying to get the wife to go back to work but she just gives me the evil eye.
Rainman's photo is outstanding. Curious how it was done and where the plywood came from. Never seen any like that.


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

unless I missed it the OP is is making full fledged box joints unless something was lost in the terminology/translation...
believe this is where he wants to go....

.


----------



## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

Stick486 said:


> unless I missed it the OP is is making full fledged box joints unless something was lost in the terminology/translation...
> believe this is where he wants to go....
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## CharlesWebster (Nov 24, 2015)

Stick486 said:


> unless I missed it the OP is is making full fledged box joints unless something was lost in the terminology/translation...
> believe this is where he wants to go....
> 
> .


Yes, that's exactly the look I want!


----------



## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

I built a home made jig that worked on the table saw based on a Fine Woodworking article I googled. The table saw version only needs a backer board since all the force is transmitted to the rear of your work piece. It worked okay but set up time was lengthy because I had to dial in the exact correct width to a dado set to make it work. I've since bought the Incra box jig which allows setting the jig to the width of the dado stack which is much faster. It is also for the TS and only uses a backer board. Either jig would work with a router with a little modifying to allow use on a table but as Stick pointed out you need blowout prevention on both sides then because of the cutting action of the bit. It wants to rip off one corner going in and the opposite one going out.

By the way, a box joint jig can also be used to make dentil molding. I did a thread about that a while back. 

About what Art said yesterday about the strength of of that type finger joint. I have to disagree with him about it not being very strong. Most of the time I make the rabbeted style joint as it is very fast to make and usually strong enough. A finger joint (box joint) is much stronger, possibly stronger than the dove tail joint because of the vastly greater glue surfaces in that type joint. What the dove tail has going for it is a degree of self alignment and the looks. Many of the old masters never bothered clamping the DT joint. They didn't see it necessary as once it was hammered together it was good to go. I saw a strength test once on whether the size of the fingers in the box joint made a difference and it was very little at all. The test went right down to 1/8" thickness and they were slightly weaker and I think that was probably a factor relating to the strength of the wood fiber at that thickness.


----------



## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

I do all my box joints on the TS . I have all homemade jigs I clamp to the miter gauge of different widths and I use them over and over. just grab the one for the thickness of material I am currently using. I use a dado set sharpened to cut a square flat dado, or my 1/4, 3/8" freud box cutter blade.
To tell the truth, I don't like to cut box joints on the router table as too many close calls with blow out, just the way a router bit cuts going into the cut and coming out where the whole bit is buried in the wood cutting end grain gives my the shudders, plus the mess it makes. plus I have to make extra pieces because I know I am going to ruin a few cutting them.
On the other hand, it is a pleasure to cut them on the TS. 
Just my VOE.
Herb


----------



## CharleyL (Feb 28, 2009)

Sorry, I've been away for a few days, so just reading this.

Baltic Birch does splinter easily when trying to make box joints, but using my Unisaw, a Freud SBOX8 blade, and a Incra I-Box jig I've found it quite easy to make box joints in Baltic Birch. Attached are a few pictures of boxes that I've made last year. The MDF backer in the I-Box needs to be moved after you have the blade height set for the height that you want, and you have made all of the other adjustments and are ready to begin making the box joints. The MDF needs to be cut to the proper height and width as you make the first finish box joint cut. If you make any further adjustments, you need to repeat the cut in a new position of the MDF backer. This is true no matter what box joint jig you use or even if you use a router. the sacrificial pieces need to have the slot in them exactly the same size as the blade cuts. Do not try to use a similar slot again. The grain lines, even in the plywood surfaces need to point toward the box joints as well. I've made a lot of boxes of many sizes using my setup above and always have good results, but the setup has to be exactly right with no play in the miter guide or any where else.

Using a router bit to cut the box joints will require a perfectly cut sacrificial piece both in front and back, since the bit is rotating and cutting into, as well as out of the board with each pass. The bit will cause chipping as the cutting blade of it exits the back side as well as the front side, if there is no backer held tightly against the wood and right up to the edge being cut to prevent the cut edges from lifting (chipping).

Charley


----------



## CharleyL (Feb 28, 2009)

Here are a few "in process" pics of the same boxes, showing the box joints without finish.

Box joints in Baltic Birch can be done, and quite easily, if you have a good jig, a good blade or bit, and a good sacrificial backer for cutting them with a saw, or in case of a
router, good sacrificial backers both in front of and behind the board being cut. There also cannot be any play in the jig or the cutting tool setup. The grain of the board being cut has to point toward the box joint as well.

As for age and dryness of the Baltic Birch, these boxes were made from scraps that were in my shop from 3-5 years before I cut them into these boxes. My shop is dry and insulated, with a wood floor, but most of the year it has no mechanical heating or cooling, except when I'm working in it, or when the temp outside will be going below freezing. When in use the heating/cooling source in my shop is a heat pump. 

Charley


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

CharlesWebster said:


> Yes, that's exactly the look I want!


don't know what else to tell ya...


----------



## CharlesWebster (Nov 24, 2015)

That was more in reply to the post that suggested that I use plain rabetted joints instead, since they are stronger and easier.

I appreciate all the suggestions and pointers. More tools and materials are on order, I'll update when I get back to work on this.


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

CharlesWebster said:


> That was more in reply to the post that suggested that I use plain rabbeted joints instead, since they are stronger and easier.
> 
> I appreciate all the suggestions and pointers. More tools and materials are on order, I'll update when I get back to work on this.


the rabbeted joint was a suggestion for ease and speed...
box joints are way stronger than a rabbeted joint...
centuries old box joints are still in use and serviceable... WTB it'd be tough to find a rabbet that fared as well even after a few decades...
keep at it Charles...
develop your skills and take what you learn to bigger more advanced projects...


----------



## Gaffboat (Mar 11, 2012)

Stick486 said:


> keep at it Charles...
> develop your skills and take what you learn to bigger more advanced projects...


+1 on Stick's suggestion. If you're like me, you'll learn a lot from the advice, ideas, and recommendations found on this forum. My skills have increased greatly since joining and each project is a little better than the last.


----------



## Knothead47 (Feb 10, 2010)

So that is baltic birch shown in some of the last threads? Need to get some and try the box joints. Don't have dado set but I can play around with a single blade and see what happens.
Thanks to all who replied to this thread! :dance3:


----------



## mgmine (Jan 16, 2012)

My point about the rabbited joint is that I have never seen one fail on a drawer, if the glue weakens then the nails take over. But then again I have never seen a box joint used on a drawer because it is meant to be used on a box(something that not get pulled on). I'm sure it will work it just shouldn't be used. You probably can get away with it if the drawer contains silverware but if you used it in a workbench drawer full of heavy tools it would fall apart. You can have all the glue surface in the world but glue loosens.


----------



## Ray Newman (Mar 9, 2009)

'Easy way' to reinforce box joints. It works and I made a few drawers and boxes with this "reinforced" joint.

On the drawers, mark on X on the top and bottom fingers on all four corners. Then bore a small diameter hole to insert a brass or other metal rod into the joint for about the depth of 3 fingers. Apply a bit of glue and tap the rod in place. Hole is best bored with a drill press for accuracy.

On boxes, do the same, then install the lid. Or, first cut the lid free is that is part of the over all design.

Can't claim this is my idea as I once saw an "Old Timer" do it that way.


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

23 GA pins are faster than fast..


----------



## Ray Newman (Mar 9, 2009)

23 GA pins are faster than fast.."
--Stick

True, but -- and there always is a but-- only if you have a pinner!! :smile:


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Ray Newman said:


> 23 GA pins are faster than fast.."
> --Stick
> 
> True, but -- and there always is a but-- only if you have a pinner!! :smile:


pretty much an invaluable tool..


----------



## mgmine (Jan 16, 2012)

So true and you can pick one up at Harbor Freight for about $15 dollars. Not a fan of HF but their air tools can't be beat for the price.


----------



## CharlesWebster (Nov 24, 2015)

Progress!

I took the advice given here and purchased a Whiteside 1/2" spiral up cut router bit, and I clamped my work behind a piece of sacrificial wood. I also used some UHMW PE tape to take the "slop" out of my sliding fence.

All together your suggestions and help added up to success.

There was no tear out or damage. The notches are slightly larger than the pins because the diameter of the new spiral bit is slightly larger than the previous and I did not remake the locating pin on the sliding fence.

A little more work, making and installing a new locating pin and I'll be up and running making drawer boxes.

Thank you all for your help, encouragement, and suggestions.


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

@CharlesWebster...

.


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

and after you master your box joints on the RT ...
learn to do them on the TS...


----------



## CharlesWebster (Nov 24, 2015)

A dado set for the TS is on my list, but unfortunately it's not next.

Since you brought it up, how do you clean up the top of a notch cut with the dado set? They always seem to have slightly deeper cuts on the sides than the center. Sort of "H" shaped. Especially in plywood where a chisel isn't much of an option.


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

"H" shaped cut..
not one of your better blade sets.. that's what they do...
use box blade or a better dado set...

Freud Tools

so do we need to get into chisels???
w/ all this joinery you are getting into... you might want to think about a shoulder plane...
DO NOT get the Stanley 92 Sweetheart...


----------



## CharlesWebster (Nov 24, 2015)

Stick486 said:


> "H" shaped cut..
> not one of your better blade sets.. that's what they do...
> use box blade or a better dado set...
> 
> ...


I'm hoping not to have to "get into" chisels nor hand planes. I've wounded myself more times with a chisel than any other tool, and I've ruined more wood with a hand plane than any other tool. I have not truly needed to learn the proper spells and incantations to work with those tools.

I'm trying to learn the tools I've got.

And please don't call me sweetheart :wink:

Thanks for the links, your references are always appreciated


----------



## jwallace01 (Apr 16, 2014)

*tear out on box joint*

I think your problem is you should be placing the box joint on the end grain. You should not have any problems then. I have not seen a use for cutting box joints across the grain like you are showing.


----------



## maximilliankat (Oct 29, 2012)

Try using green painter's tape


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

CharlesWebster said:


> 1... I'm hoping not to have to "get into" chisels nor hand planes. I've wounded myself more times with a chisel than any other tool, and I've ruined more wood with a hand plane than any other tool. I have not truly needed to learn the proper spells and incantations to work with those tools.
> 
> 2... I'm trying to learn the tools I've got.
> 
> ...


1... face it...
you need to learn... 
you hurting you is probably forcing the tools because they are dull... 

2... good plan...

3... surely yur not serious...

4... no problemo...


----------



## CharlesWebster (Nov 24, 2015)

Stick486 said:


> 1... face it...
> you need to learn...
> you hurting you is probably forcing the tools because they are dull...
> 
> ...


1. yes
I need to find someone to teach me how to sharpen properly
I need to get a quality plane and chisels
Yes, I know there are lots of YouTube videos, but I still learn best in person

Thanks for all your help


----------



## CharleyL (Feb 28, 2009)

The box joints on the boxes that I posted earlier were cut with a Freud SBOX8 blade set. It wwill cut either 1/4" or 3/8" box joints very well, much better than other dado blade sets. I have cut a few box joints using my Freud adjustable dado blade set and they don't come out near as well as when I use the SBOX8, so I pretty much just stick to making them in only these two sizes with this blade. My boxes are not usually larger than 1 X 2 ft anyway.

I cut my box joints a little deeper than the thickness of the mating piece and then use a flush trim bit in my router table to trim off the excess after the box is glued and assembled. A light sanding after this and the box is ready for finish.

If the box will have a lid, I build the box complete including the top and bottom panels, and then saw the lid off using my Unisaw with an 80 tooth blade and a feather board to hold the box against the fence. I make the cuts in opposite ends first, then install shims in the kerfs with blue tape to hold them in place, then make the two remaining cuts. I've never had a problem doing it this way.

Charley


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

CharlesWebster said:


> 1. yes
> I need to find someone to teach me how to sharpen properly
> I need to get a quality plane and chisels
> Yes, I know there are lots of YouTube videos, but I still learn best in person
> ...


practice...


----------



## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Stick486 said:


> 1... face it...
> you need to learn...
> you hurting you is probably forcing the tools because they are dull...
> 
> ...


I agree with Stick, you need to learn. If you are working with fine joinery those are skills you will need. Learn by doing. I invested in some pricey water stones which now sit and never and never get used. I have some of those cheap diamond hones that come 3 to a pack for $15-20. You need the ones with red and then green bases to get sharp. I'm satisfied when the chisels will shave hair off the back of my hand and they aren't expensive ones. The pricey ones will maybe hold an edge longer but the cheap ones can be gotten sharp enough. Sharpening the plane blades is the same process.


----------



## CharlesWebster (Nov 24, 2015)

Haven't needed to use chisels or planes. But, there's progress on the box joint front.

Today I made about 100 box joint slots and pins. Only a few fit. This requires a degree of precision that is hard to achieve in wood!

My pins and notches need to be exactly 0.490" high (the thickness of the stock) by 0.510" wide (the diameter of my cutter).

It took five tries to make a locating pin to those exact dimensions, but I did it.

I find that even saw dust and chips on the router table affect the accuracy. If I don't clean the table between every cut the depth of the slot can vary by +/- 0.010" which causes a mis-fit!

To pose another question, could I achieve this degree of accuracy with a $100 dado set on a 1983 Craftsman table saw?

Or am I on a fools errand?


----------



## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

I cut mine on a table saw and the only thing you need to worry about is slop in the miter track. If you get a good fit then that will work with a flat bottom cutting dado. You may be better off to make your own runners out of hardwood so that you can get that snug fit you need. Where you had to fiddle with the pin on the router version you'll need to fiddle with the thickness of the dado stack when using a TS to cut them. Get a set of shims if the set doesn't come with them.


----------



## CharleyL (Feb 28, 2009)

I always make my pins slightly longer than needed, then trim them off after the box has been assembled and glued. If it is made too short there isn't anything you can do to make it look good. A 1/32 too long sands or trims off after assembly very easily. I use my router table with a flush trim bit, then a light sanding of the box and corners and they are perfect.

Charley


----------



## CharlesWebster (Nov 24, 2015)

I've completed the first box successfully! It's nothing to look at so no pix.

I'll get some cabinet-grade plywood this week for the next box. I relocated the locating pin in the jig to make the pins slightly smaller than the notches to allow for some glue room. The first box was so tight the glue squeezed out of the joints completely in one place ;-(

I plan to use the strategy of cutting the notches slightly deep to leave the pins proud for later cleanup with a flush trim bit.

This has been a very enlightening process. I have learned a lot about my router table (I love it), wood (plywood in particular), and woodworking in general.


----------



## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Don't try the flush trim on anything expensive Charles. There is a good chance that the bit going over the end grain make leave the end grain very rough. On solid wood I see some of the experts say they plane the fingers flush but that probably won't work very well on ply. My first try would be to sand them flush with an ROS.


----------



## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

CharlesWebster said:


> 1. yes
> I need to find someone to teach me how to sharpen properly
> I need to get a quality plane and chisels
> Yes, I know there are lots of YouTube videos, but I still learn best in person
> ...


 @CharlesWebster Rockler had a demo where I learned by watching. But sharpening any iron or chisel always begins with flattening the back. That is really quite easy to do either with a diamond stone set, or sandpapers of various grits. It is all in how you hold the back of the blade to the sharpening medium.

Finding someone to walk you through would be doable, but we'd have to have an idea where you live so someone within driving range will know. Don't give your street address. Arrange to meet via private message on this site.


----------



## CharleyL (Feb 28, 2009)

I agree. Flush trimming on a router table can produce bad results if you have to remove more than 1/16" or so of the pins. I try to be very careful to keep my pins just slightly longer than the thickness of the box side that it will mate to, but here is another method that will work for any excessive pin length. I would also use this method whenever working with very hard and/or splintery wood.

If pins aretoo long, consider using a table saw and fence with a sacrificial board attached to the fence, and the board raised just high enough for the pins to fit under it. Then set the fence position so the saw blade is under this board and very close to being flush with the board's side surface. The board will allow you to pass the side of the box along it while the blade cuts the excessive length of the pins off. If this is adjusted right, there will only be a few thousandths of pin sticking out of the box corner after this cut, so they will easily sand off perfectly flush with the box side. 

Charley


----------



## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

CharlesWebster said:


> To pose another question, could I achieve this degree of accuracy with a $100 dado set on a 1983 Craftsman table saw?
> 
> Or am I on a fools errand?


 @CharlesWebster You may be able to use your 1983 saw, and one factor will be the runout on your arbor. You can get an idea of this by mounting a flat blade, marking one tooth, then measuring the distance from slot to that tooth using some sort of gauge. Place the marked tooth at the start of the slot and measure. Then spin the tooth to the back of the slot and measure again. There should be no more than a couple of thousanths difference between the two, if there is, you may have a runout problem which would affect the dado accuracy. If it is withing 3-5 thousandths you could probably use the dado set.


----------



## Wildman692 (Dec 12, 2016)

If you have too much run out use a wobblesaw and send me your dado set, ha ha. almost impossible to find now in the UK, well at a reasonable price anyway and postage from the USA costs a bomb it seems.


----------

