# Turtle Planter Redux



## tomp913 (Mar 7, 2014)

Been a little out of touch lately due to a recurring bronchial infection that's kept me sidelined for over a month, hopefully I'm finally over that.

While I was recuperating, I had time to think about my turtle project. and have finally spent a little time trying to streamline the operation as I now have 3 new ones to make.

One earlier builds, I ripped the stock to width (5 different widths are required) and then cut the mitered pieces, marking each piece with the patterns that I'd made. Not only was this slow, but it didn't give really consistent results as I was trying to line the blade with the pencil mark on material - not a problem if making a single part, but I'm cutting 40 pieces and I need consistency so that the octagon ends fit together properly. I'd toyed with the idea of clamping a stop block to the miter saw fence, but this wasn't perfect. I came up with the idea of bolting a sub-table to the saw (2 tapped holes added) and making a stop block that clamped to the table. This worked really well - starting with the material cut to width, I was able to cut all 40 pieces in 21 minutes, start-to-finish and all parts of the same length were identical. I later had to remake one of the segments and found a problem in lining up the pattern with the saw kerf to set the stop - Version 2 of the fixture will have two projecting dowels in the stop and three pairs of mating holes in the table, this should give me the ability to duplicate the set-up and produce identical parts from run to run (or to make a replacement part after the fact if I make a mistake). While I was doing this, I also made a fixture that allows me to trim the ends of the legs to a consistent length so that the assembly doesn't wobble. I was making "pads" for the bottom of the legs to keep the wood out of standing water out of a piece of vinyl 1 x 2 and nailing them to the bottom of the leg, but found a coffee can of these nail-on vinyl bumpers so switched to using them.

An added bonus to the fixture is that the saw will now cut the 5" wide parts cleanly, the 3/4" plywood table raised the material up to where the blade was now wide enough so I don't need to hold the saw down at the end of the cut and swivel the stock up into the blade to complete the cut,


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

you are definitely getting better at those turtles Tom...

.


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## hawkeye10 (Jul 28, 2015)

I remember your other post on these planters Tom. I am glad your back in the shop.


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## BobbyLee (Jan 25, 2016)

Glad you are feeling better. Very nicely done Tom. The wife says she'll take two... You can drop them off any time. Just bring steak for the dogs...


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## tomp913 (Mar 7, 2014)

BobbyLee said:


> Glad you are feeling better. Very nicely done Tom. The wife says she'll take two... You can drop them off any time. Just bring steak for the dogs...


Thanks, I guess practice goes towards making perfect - as long as you keep learning a little something each time. The three jigs/fixtures I've made have gone a long ways towards both speeding up and improving the process, now I need a way to speed up the assembly of the body layers. The original plan called for just gluing up the layers, clamping with a band clamp until the glue is dry - I don't have enough band clamps (excuse to buy a few more?) but more importantly the time to wait for the glue to dry, so I've been using a pocket screw at each joint. I also went to PL375 adhesive rather than TB III as it seems to make a little less mess. The problem is that the joints don't always stay level front to back (maybe I need two clamps at each joint while I'm driving the screw) so I wind up having to plane the joints flat which takes time. Someone suggested a biscuit at each joint to keep it level; I may try that on the next one, see if the time to add the biscuits offsets the time needed to plane the face - the time to plane the faces isn't bad in most cases, a sharp block plane does a nice job there. The other thing I'm thinking about trying is maybe clamping the assembly while I drive the pocket screws - I laid out some corner blocks on a scrap piece of plywood, need to try them out and see how they work with the band clamp.

Since I have three to make at one time, I'm going to keep track of my time and see how long it actually tales to make one - see how my hourly rate is working out :wink:


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## TenGees (Sep 12, 2012)

Nice, I like the way you've elongated the 'shell', Tom.


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## tomp913 (Mar 7, 2014)

TenGees said:


> Nice, I like the way you've elongated the 'shell', Tom.


Thanks, but I can't take any credit for that - the original plan came that way. Planter Woodworking Plans - 2X Tortoise Planter Project Plans I've tweaked a couple of the details - pocket-screwing the layers, modified the pert outlines so that I can sand the parts using the ends of my Ridgid belt sander to speed up production, etc. They have some great designs, this is just the one that caught our fancy.

The "oval octagon" though is an idea that could transfer over to other projects - a box, a picture frame, or even a dining table (I can picture that in some fancy veneer, a little above my skill level, but there are some on this forum that could really do that justice).


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## JFPNCM (Dec 13, 2009)

@tomp913

Really appreciate the update Tom as I have the plans now and will be starting one by month end. The issue here is there local source for that KD yellow wood so I'll probably use standard pressure treated or go to cedar. Not keen on the PT approach. What wood did you settle on?


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## tomp913 (Mar 7, 2014)

JFPNCM said:


> @tomp913
> 
> Really appreciate the update Tom as I have the plans now and will be starting one by month end. The issue here is there local source for that KD yellow wood so I'll probably use standard pressure treated or go to cedar. Not keen on the PT approach. What wood did you settle on?


Jon, 

I've used YellaWood that I get from Home Depot on the last two assemblies and it's way better than what I was buying at Lowes. The pieces of lumber have a tag stapled on each end - one shows the "YellaWood" brand and the other "WeatherShield Premium Wood Products". I'm sure that there are other brands out there - I did a Google search for "PT lumber KD after treatment" based on the recommendation of someone from this forum and there were a lot of results. I believe that the YellaWood site has a "Dealer Locator" tab on their web site and that's where HD's name popped up.

There were some suggestions on this site to just use standard lumber and coat appropriately, that this should give acceptable life, particularly since the feet rest on vinyl bumpers so there is not ground contact. I would have given that a try - or gone looking for a source for cedar or other more naturally weather resistant wood - except that this PT wood has worked out so far. I do use a dust mask while I'm working with it Amazon.com: Breathe Healthy Honeycomb Face Mask-Protect your Immune System from Allergns, Pollen, Dust, Mold Spores, Cold & Flu with Antimicrobial Shield - Silver: Health & Personal Care and have dust collection hooked up to all my tools.

If interested, I can send you some sketches of the modifications I made to a couple of the parts to improve appearance (my opinion anyway) and cut down on the work,

Tom


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## JFPNCM (Dec 13, 2009)

@tomp913

Tom:

I've checked the Yellawood website as well as local suppliers and with the exception of a 6x6 column, their products are not available in Oregon or Washington. I'll keep looking. If you could forward the local stock Nos. from your HD perhaps I can approach them about an order. 

Thanks for the offer of the sketches. Once I get my current project done (a book nook for a local littlefreelibrary.org) I'll be back to you about the sketches.


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## tomp913 (Mar 7, 2014)

JFPNCM said:


> @tomp913
> 
> Tom:
> 
> ...


Jon, 

My apologies for taking so long to answer, still fighting this bronchial infection plus a kidney stone has started to make itself known so I've been a little out of touch lately.

I scanned the tags off the lumber I've been buying at Home Depot (attached) and here is a link to the US HD web site that shows the wood I've been buying Pressure Treated Lumber - *The Home Depot

I'm currently trying to work on 3 turtles - trying to see if making multiples is quicker than singly - so have purchased enough material (in two batches) to do this. When I went to pick up the first batch, it was obvious that they had just had a new batch delivered and I picked through to get what I needed. In fairness, the wood was pretty straight so getting good ones was easy, but the wood was definitely wet - not as wet as some earlier buys but noticeably damp. I cut all the head/leg parts out and left them to dry out before gluing and sanding them as assemblies and went down and picked up the material to make the mitered pieces. I was still picking out of the same batch of material - easy to pick out straight pieces, but still damp. I've got that material stacked and stickered, trying to get it dried out before I start ripping to width and mitering the pieces to size.

I've been a little disappointed that the new wood is so wet compared to the first couple of batches, but thinking that had been lying around HD for a while - guess that people weren't buying too much PT lumber in the winter time - and had dried out. I'll keep an eye on the stacked lumber and see how long it takes to dry out to a workable level - looks like I still need to buy the lumber in advance and stack it to dry out. Maybe I still need to look at cedar as I've got 5 more to make after this batch.


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## tomp913 (Mar 7, 2014)

Looks like it won't let me attach the .pdf file as and edit so here it isd.


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## JFPNCM (Dec 13, 2009)

@tomp913

Tom: Sorry to hear about the down turn in your health. wishing you a speedy and complete recovery.

appreciate the update and the labels. I'll take those with me on my next trip to HD. One difference I noted is the tags are marked for "above ground use". That wood tends to be dryer than that rated for ground contact. An alternative I hadn't considered.

My first one is going to be the smaller version so at the moment I'm considering using KD fir which is cheaper as well. I can then stain and seal it so that it'll last for a few years. If it turns out then I'll move to the wood you noted or cedar. Just hate to stain good cedar.

One question, do you dowel pin any of the joints, particularly the 2 sides of the base? 

PS: Did you try using the drag and drop feature for adding the PDF? 

Look forward to your comments on the multiple set cuts. makes sense to me.


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## tomp913 (Mar 7, 2014)

@JFPNCM

Jon,

Are you looking at plans for the Medium & Large Planters which use the 3" x 5" landscape timbers or the small model which is made from 2 x 4's? I stayed with the small one, partly because I didn't like the "look" of the ones built with the landscape timbers but also because they're so big - the small model is about 31" long x 18" wide, the medium is 41" x 23" and the large is 28" wide (no length given but I'm thinking close to 48"). In any event, ground contact treatment isn't required - I put PVC pads on the bottom of the feet on the first couple that I made but switched over to "oblong" nail-on bumpers on the last couple. These keep the bottom of the feet off the ground and eliminates "wicking" of any surface water into the legs. If I keep making these, I may switch over to regular (not PT) lumber as that will certainly eliminate a lot of the problems - I may have to give them a coat of finish in that case though.

I don't dowel any of the joints - the miter joints of the layers are held together with glue and (1) pocket screw, there is sometimes some "twisting" of the assembly (or maybe cupping of the pieces as the wood dries out?) to the point that I have to plane the joint to make it flat (I sanded the first unit on a 6" stationary belt sander which did a nice job but coated the shop in a layer of sawdust - an option now only if the weather is good and I can take the operation outside). I'd considered adding a biscuit to each joint in addition to the pocket screw (no room for a second pocket screw) but the additional time is probably more than it takes to knock off the high spot at the joints. There's no need to dowel the joint between the floor halves - look at the photo and you can see that each half is attached to the body assembly with (4) screws (in addition to the glue used). The only weigh on the floor is the flower pot, and an 8" (max) diameter pot doesn't weight too much. I've been drilling 1/4" drain holes in the bottom so rainwater doesn't sit inside, maybe larger holes would be better - or I've even considered changing the parts a little so that they assemble with a gap between them for drainage.


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## roofner (Aug 1, 2010)

Tom when you buy the plans from this company can you sell these or are they just a one copy they are copy righted?


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## tomp913 (Mar 7, 2014)

Gary,

The plans are copyrighted, and there are restrictions on selling the finished item. You can read the restrictions on their web sight https://www.thewinfieldcollection.com/ - there is a difference whether you're making them as gifts/selling privately or advertising/selling them on the Internet. In either case, there is a limit of 10 copies that can be made. The wording makes it seem that you could make more if you bought an additional set of plans, I'd have to call the company and ask that question - it may be that I'd have run out of enthusiasm by then.


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## old coasty (Aug 15, 2014)

Tom, look great, glad you are getting yourself going again.


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## JFPNCM (Dec 13, 2009)

@tomp913

Appreciate the update on the pocket screw approach. I'll look into that. Did you use a Kreg jig or something similar?

I'm building one of the smaller ones based on 2x4, 2x6 and 2x8 lumber. I believe it is plan No 1563. 

What's the source of the "oblong" nail on bumpers oyu are adding to the feet? a very reasonable approach and one that should work for planters as well. 

When you cut out the head section for example do you cut the pieces individually and then glue them up or glue up a block and then cut? As I have access to my neighbors heavy duty bandsaw I may well try the latter approach. 

Thanks for the assistance.

Trust you are well on the mend.


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## tomp913 (Mar 7, 2014)

@JFPNCM

W1563 is the one that I've been building, I believe it's the smallest of the three that they offer.

These are probably the bumpers that I'm using Outwater M42 - page 244 Part R34-105BR, we used to buy a lot from Outwater back in the day, nailed these on the bottom of the cabinets to prevent damage as we were moving them around the shop. 

I cut the parts out individually, glue/screw them together and then belt sand to clean up the saw marks - works for me, don't like to push the 14" PC bandsaw too hard.


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## JFPNCM (Dec 13, 2009)

@tomp913

Thanks again. 

I certainly understand not wanting to push the bandsaw. 

I'll keep you posted on my progress.


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## JFPNCM (Dec 13, 2009)

@tomp913

Well, I've made some progress as seen in the attached. I gave up on the search for decent treated lumber and went to standard or better KD fir. I'll prime it and once Carol has it painted I'll apply a spray on sealer.

I cheated a bit on the chamfering of each ring. I glued them up first, including a pocket screw and then passed the completed ring through the table saw (left tilt blade, fence on the right).


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## tomp913 (Mar 7, 2014)

@JFPNCM

Jon,

That looks good, nice job. The KD fir, with a sealer and good coat of paint, should hold up fine, and I'm sure eliminated a lot of the problems I was having. I would recommend some type of rubber/vinyl pads under the feet so that it doesn't sit in water, as well as drain holes in the floor under the flower pot.

Well done.

Tom


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## JFPNCM (Dec 13, 2009)

@tomp913

Tom:

Appreciate the feedback. I have the details you provided on the "pads" for the feet and will be adding those. The drain holes are in place as well.

One problem I did have was sourcing the 5" wood screws. The best approximation I could find was 5" framing bolts. 

I would be interested in knowing how the relative costs for the lumber stack up, the total for the KD for was 19$.

Now SWMBO wants a bigger one for the far corner of the yard. I'm toying with the idea of stacking the 2" lumber rather than going to the 4". Any thoughts on how that might work out?



Cheers
Jon


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## tomp913 (Mar 7, 2014)

@JFPNCM

Jon,

Winfield sells the 5" screws, by the box of 50. I think it only takes 4 for the planter, but I use them to assemble the solar lights shown in the photo. The bases are made of the same 3" x 5" landscape timbers specified for the larger turtle and the 5" screw is perfect for joining the parts.

I think the turtle scaled up would look good in the same "design", I didn't like the larger ones as I thought that they were a little cartoonish. The next size is 41" long x 23" wide per Winfield's catalog, they one you made is 31" x 18" so you'd have to scale the parts up by 1/3 give or take. Adding a layer would make the body 9" tall, which would match the next size (3 layers at 3") - one thing, from the photo, it looks as if the body isn't tapered but I would keep that feature as I think it makes it look good. You could leave the legs, head, etc. made out of 2 layers of 2x material, I don't think that it would look too out of proportion. I looked at the ratios they used to make the octagon oval, just make the adjustment to the sizes so that the inside width in the narrow direction is 10" to accommodate the 10" pot used for the larger unit. Let me know if you're going to make the larger one and I'll dig up the sheet where I laid out the octagon ratios. If you had a pantograph, it would be pretty easy to scale the body parts up, or some prints shops can blow the original patters up for a reasonable cost.

As far as cost difference, I'd say that the PT lumber may be about 50% higher - I have the receipts out in the shop and can look it up tomorrow - bear in mind that I bought enough to make three (I can get the six floor pieces out of an 8' 2x8), and I use all 2x6 material to make the rest of the pieces - I think one to make the legs, etc. and three to make the mitered pieces. 

Tom


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## JFPNCM (Dec 13, 2009)

@tomp913

Tom:

Nice approach on the solar lamps. A pleasant addition for any deck.

I'll check the Winfield catalog for the screws.

I agree re the "cartoonish" appearance of those bigger turtles and thank you for the thought process on scaling up the original plans. That project remains on hold. 

The Eagle in the attached photo has been out in the weather for 3 years now and is holding up well. I used KD fir and the same primer, paint, sealer process on it so hopefully that bodes well for the turtle.


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## tomp913 (Mar 7, 2014)

After making the fixture for my miter saw to cut the body pieces, I found that my original idea didn't give exact repeatability of dimensions if I set the fixture back up to cut more pieces - I had to cut a couple of replacement pieces and found that lining up the edge of the hardboard template with the saw cut in the base and then clamping the stop in place could (would) result in some minor length differences in the parts between the original batch and the replacement, just enough sometimes to prevent the octagon joints from closing up correctly.

I just finished the following modifications to the fixture
- put a stop on the bottom of the saw table so that it's location would repeat relative to the saw.
- made (3) individual stops and doweled them to the plywood saw table. I tacked each stop to the plywood with a short brad, removed the base and drilled through both parts at the same time. The dowels should locate the stops relative to the saw cut and give me identical parts from set-up to set-up.

Haven't tried it yet - the gluing of the dowels to the stops is drying - but hope to give it a test tomorrow as I finished ripping the 2x6's to the different widths. The dowels are long enough to use as "pulls" to remove the stop from the plywood table, but the fit is kind of tight and I'm still needing to pry the stops loose. First step tomorrow is to cut a kerf along the length of the projecting portion of the dowel so it has a little flexibility in the hole, without affecting the fit of the dowel to the hole.

If this keeps up, I'm going to have enough invested in jigs and fixtures to make it worthwhile renewing my "license to manufacture" from the plan seller - but I would go with @JFPNCM and start making them out of non- pressure treated lumber and tell the buyer that they need to paint/coat them appropriately. I had the 2x6's stacked and stickered for over a month (boy, time flies) and still saw some moisture sprayed on the inside of the TS guard.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

great thinking Tom...


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## JFPNCM (Dec 13, 2009)

Agree with Stick. Great progress on the jigs. Looking forward to the results.


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## tomp913 (Mar 7, 2014)

The modifications to the fixture worked out just like I hoped. Starting of with the boards ripped to size - pretty much, I needed about 12' each of the 4-1/2" and 5" widths so ripped 1 @ 4-1/2 and 2 @ 5" and ripped the left over 5" to 4-1/2" after cutting all the wider parts - I had all the pieces for 3 assemblies (120 total segments) cut and stacked in a little over an hour.

Now I need to improve my bandsaw skills so that I can get the parts closer to finished size and cut down on the sanding, looking at modifying the outlines some more to simplify them (larger radius maybe?).


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## JFPNCM (Dec 13, 2009)

@tomp913

After a lot of Google searches Carol settled on a water turtle as the model for painting hers as seen in the attached. While not a great match, as a piece of yard it fits the bill.

Tom: I'm still toying with the idea of building another one but with modifications to make the body less like a pyramid and more rounded like most turtle shells. The approach would be to make the body 3 rings high instead of 5 with the outside of the rings tapered and then sanding the whole body to achieve an arc. The general appearance would be similar to adding a strip of 3/4 round to each ring. Any thoughts?


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## tomp913 (Mar 7, 2014)

@JFPNCM

Nice color scheme, I like it. I'm not that artistic though -but I did have someone ask me if I could make one in the University of Maryland (Terrapins) colors. I'd have to think about that though.

I don't know about "reshaping" the body, seems like a lot of work. One thing I did consider was leaving off the top (1-1/2" wide) layer - the center hole only accepts pots up to 8" diameter and I found that I needed an 1-1/2" thick block on the floor to raise it up to the level of the top, leaving off the top layer would eliminate the need for the block. I think that just leaving off the top layer would change the appearance quite a bit, and may get you what you're looking for. You could try tracing the cross-section on the plan and try drawing various combinations of layer width and edge chamfer to see if you can get something that you like - I personally like the effect of the edge chamfers on the layers as I think that kind of makes the design.

Call me crazy, but I still like the idea of making a larger version, scaling it up about 30% as you suggested earlier. I'd add a layer on the bottom, maybe 5-1/2" wide or so, for a total of 6 layers and play with the edge chamfers a little. It would start getting a little pricey though if the leg parts wouldn't come out of a 2x6, but I'd make the floor out of 3/4" exterior plywood (may not even need to double it up, but probably a good idea to give some support to the leg joints). I'd have to get a helper to give me a hand moving it once assembly starts though.

For the three that I'm making now, I used a total of (9) 2x6 x 8' and (1) 2x8 x 8', with very little waste - a couple of lengths of the rippings I used to make the mitered body segments.


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## JFPNCM (Dec 13, 2009)

@tomp913

Carol appreciates and thanks you for the comments on her color scheme. I looked up the U of M terrapin and a number of the caricatures might not be too difficult, to paint a real Diamond Terrapin would be a work of art. 

Leaving off the top ring makes sense to me and I'll definitely consider it. I ran into the same issue with the pot size and used a few rocks instead of a block of wood. The former will help with the drainage as well. If the rocks add too much weight then one could use large volcanic cinders to fill the space. 

Moving a larger version about in the shop would definitely prove a challenge. Look forward to the photos should you proceed. 

Appreciate the discussion. I'm off on a bit of a holiday until the end of the month.


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## tomp913 (Mar 7, 2014)

Well, it's starting to feel as if I'm spending more time recuperating than out working in the shop lately - the back doctor still hasn't cleared me for "strenuous" work yet so I've been working on some small shop improvements that have been in the planning stages for a while.

When we got back from our Alaska trip, I finished the first turtle of the batch of three that I'd been working on before left - no final photo, things were a little hectic at the time as my wife got sick on the trip and wound up in the hospital with kidney failure when we got back (the kidney function started back up though and she seems to be doing pretty well) but I wound up in the ER with pinched nerve in my hip where the nerve endings got seriously inflamed, and am still struggling with that.

So, while I'm on "light duty" seemed like a good time to take care of modifications/improvements to my tooling as I have more still to make.

- the fixture for clamping the segments while cutting the chamfer on the edges worked well, but it irked me that I had to flip the fence on it's side because the toggle clamp interfered with it. I had bought a "vertical" model clamp, and took the time to modify the fixture so I could use it - needed to add a riser block under the base so it would work with the 1-1/2" thick material.

- the next project was a "bench bull" - essentially a block that clamps to my workbench and give me options for clamping smaller parts while working on them. It needs to be completed but looks as if it's going to do what I need - and I'm looking at a larger version made with 2x6 stock that will have a Kreg clamp plate set into the top. I also found that some work was easier done with the part clamped in a hand screw (a la MT Stringer) so will modify further with a dog hole in the top and in the one side of the clamp so that I can use a piece of 3/4" dowel to locate the one side while I clamp the other.

With all the little pieces complete, the assembly is all that's left but that's how I wound up with the back problem as there's a lot of handling required to assemble the rings into a finished body. Maybe now's the time to play with the WorkSharp 300 that my wife bought me and see if I can get my chisels all sharp again.............


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## JFPNCM (Dec 13, 2009)

I like the jigs and the turtle is looking great.

All the best on for you and your wife's recoveries.


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