# router table safety



## Wood Ezee (Mar 10, 2013)

My router table was given to me and did not come with an emergency power switch. Do all come with the abilty to plug in the router and be able to turn the router with a simple light switch mechanism?


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## Willway (Aug 16, 2012)

*Safety switch.*



Wood Ezee said:


> My router table was given to me and did not come with an emergency power switch. Do all come with the abilty to plug in the router and be able to turn the router with a simple light switch mechanism?


Hi Tom, I am just west of you near Abilene. As to your question is no not all tables have a safety switch, but this is not a problem. It can be solved easily and inexpensively. Most of us have some experience in simple electrical wiring. I am enclosing a link to the paddle switch ($14.38) from Amazon. You mount the switch in a standard electrical box of your choice, take power to the switch first, then to a box with a standard receptacle. This will give you a place to plug up your router and your shopvac when you start the router the shopvac will also start. The switch is heavy enough to handle both (only the 110/220v version is rated this high). If you need more help just send me a private message, I'll be here.

Woodstock D4151 110/220-Volt Paddle Switch - Amazon.com


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## jschaben (Jun 21, 2009)

Wood Ezee said:


> My router table was given to me and did not come with an emergency power switch. Do all come with the abilty to plug in the router and be able to turn the router with a simple light switch mechanism?


Hi Tom - Welcome to the forum
I think the switches you are talking about are sold by Kreg, Rockler and several other places. You didn't say what type of table you have. If you can mount a standard wall outlet on the table (many benchtop tables are difficult to equip this way), I would suggest mounting a switched box on the table. Control the box with something like this
H8241 110V Paddle On/Off Switch
I recommend a paddle style switch if at all possible. I had a table that used a standard wall light switch and I found it a bit difficult to find in a hurry. The paddle handles that issue nicely.


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## IC31 (Nov 16, 2012)

I have added the Grizzly 8243 paddle switch to my table saw and will do so in the near future to the router table, replacing the 20 amp HD light switch. 

Read the descriptions of any switch considered and tailor it to your router. The suggested 8241 is rated at only 16 amps/half horsepower while the 8243 is 35 amps @110VAC


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

This is what I use. Foot Switch - Save on this Momentary Power Foot Switch No need to think about where the switch is, just move your foot to turn it off.


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## mgmine (Jan 16, 2012)

I have a simple light switch which controls a plug. Into this plug I have both the router and a shop vac plugged in. When I turn on the switch both the router an vac start up. Both the plug and switch are rated at 15 amp and have never had a problem. Total cost including the utility box was about $4.50.


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## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

JOAT said:


> This is what I use. Foot Switch - Save on this Momentary Power Foot Switch No need to think about where the switch is, just move your foot to turn it off.


I would NOT use a foot switch unless you have some way to assure you don't/can't step on it accidentally! That's a real safety issue in my opinion.


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## PRDarnell (Mar 21, 2012)

I have wired a couple of my machines with large paddle switches (Up is On, Down is Off) that are easy to find. I ALSO have a 120 v. momentary foot switch (Power On when depressed, Power Off when let up) that I bought years ago. Rockler? That way I have both kinds of control. When I'm ready I depress the foot switch THEN turn on the paddle switch.

While working I can then instantly turn the power off by lifting up my foot. 

Just my way of doing things.


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## IC31 (Nov 16, 2012)

I know folks use the momentary treadle floor switches successfully, but I kind of wander to get into the best position plus feel that that accidental actuation is of considerable danger if I don't turn off that so-called master switch - CRS, laziness or a senior moment, whatever the case might be at the time.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

I have and sometimes use a Lee Valley foot switch which is turned on by stepping on ot and turned off by stepping on it again. Duane is correct that it can be dangerous. I found that the answer is to put the switch under the table so that I have to reach for it on purpose. No way to accidentally step on it that way. In one way they can be safer because you don't need any hands to turn it off, you can keep them on your work piece if needed. The other thing I like about the foot switch is that it is very handy at times on the drill press too.


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## TinyTiger (Mar 9, 2013)

+1 for the Rockler Power Switch. It comes ready to go - just screw it onto your table or wall, plug in your router, and go. I love things that are easy! Plus, by the time you figure in the switch, wiring, plugs, etc., and your time (most critical), the cost will probably be about the same.

Let us know what you end up choosing. Good luck with it!


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## CR1 (Aug 11, 2011)

Emergency power switch? 
What for? I mean if something untoward happens, it'll be user error anyway and will happen so fast that the damage will be done long before a human can react.



What would make sense is some prescient way to have foreknowledge of an accident or emergent situation that comes you you in time to respond before it happens.


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## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

CR1 said:


> Emergency power switch?
> What for? I mean if something untoward happens, it'll be user error anyway and will happen so fast that the damage will be done long before a human can react.
> 
> 
> ...


Ooh... not always on either count. Wouldn't want to operate power tools under those assumptions!


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## IC31 (Nov 16, 2012)

CR1 said:


> Emergency power switch?
> What for? I mean if something untoward happens, it'll be user error anyway and will happen so fast that the damage will be done long before a human can react.
> 
> 
> ...


If you honestly believe that, then I wish the very best of luck to you and your future endeavors working with power tools. 

FWIW, not all 'accidents' or 'situations' involve physical damage to the person operating a machine, but do often happen to a work piece that could be saved from further damage by a strategically placed stop switch.


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## BGoulette (Mar 14, 2013)

It's not my intention to hijack a thread, so I hope the following question is relevant:

Would the Woodstock D4151 switch be acceptable when connected to a 2.25 HP router motor? (I'd paste a link, but the board rejects it since this will be, I think, only my fourth post: search Amazon for Woodstock D4151 if you're bored!)

I can wire a light switch without trouble, but I've never thought about a horsepower rating for a power switch. I am brand new to the routing world, and I'm looking at components to put together a router table, but I want to be sure that anything I consider is appropriate for the task.

Thanks for any advice!


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## Willway (Aug 16, 2012)

BGoulette said:


> It's not my intention to hijack a thread, so I hope the following question is relevant:
> 
> Would the Woodstock D4151 switch be acceptable when connected to a 2.25 HP router motor? (I'd paste a link, but the board rejects it since this will be, I think, only my fourth post: search Amazon for Woodstock D4151 if you're bored!)
> 
> ...


The Woodstock 4151 is rated at 35amp and is the same as the Grizzly 8243 they use on their table saws and other equipment. It is completely adequate for almost any shop tool.


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

Dmeadows said:


> I would NOT use a foot switch unless you have some way to assure you don't/can't step on it accidentally! That's a real safety issue in my opinion.


Not a problem. The foot switch is placed where it is not likely to get stepped on unless intentionally. Plus, when my tools are not in actual use, they are unplugged. I am 72, and still got all my parts, don't intend on losing any now. I'll take a foot switch any day over a paddle switch that you've got to think where it is then reach for it when instant shutdown is important.


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

CR1 said:


> if something untoward happens, it'll be user error anyway and will happen so fast that the damage will be done long before a human can react.


Not all accidents are human error. In any event, you want to shut down as quickly as possible.


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

PRDarnell said:


> I have wired a couple of my machines with large paddle switches (Up is On, Down is Off) that are easy to find. I ALSO have a 120 v. momentary foot switch (Power On when depressed, Power Off when let up) that I bought years ago. Rockler? That way I have both kinds of control. When I'm ready I depress the foot switch THEN turn on the paddle switch.
> 
> While working I can then instantly turn the power off by lifting up my foot.
> 
> Just my way of doing things.


And not a bad way of doing things at all. I use a foot switch, same as yours, but your paddle switches are a good idea indeed. I may have to give that a shot. Always open to new, good, ideas - thanks.


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> I have and sometimes use a Lee Valley foot switch which is turned on by stepping on ot and turned off by stepping on it again. Duane is correct that it can be dangerous. I found that the answer is to put the switch under the table so that I have to reach for it on purpose. No way to accidentally step on it that way. In one way they can be safer because you don't need any hands to turn it off, you can keep them on your work piece if needed. The other thing I like about the foot switch is that it is very handy at times on the drill press too.


Not liking that type of foot switch at all. Takes a separate action to turn off, and that is just not to my liking. I'll admit, that for certain types of jobs, on certain types of tools, that it could be very handy, but just not my cuppa.


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

No amount of guarding or safety devices will ever take the place of common sence. If something feels wrong stop what you are doing, pull your wood away from a bit or in the case of a saw hold it in place and power down.

Paddle switches do make it easier to cut power since you can bump them with any available body part. If you want to order a switch I would get one with at least a 20 amp rating since that will handle any router with no problems. The same holds true for speed controllers.


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## CR1 (Aug 11, 2011)

IC31 said:


> If you honestly believe that, then I wish the very best of luck to you and your future endeavors working with power tools.


LEMEEESEE NOW

I started running industrial machinery in very old machine shops where much of the power still came from shafts and pulleys in the ceiling. I'm talking engine lathes with 4' swings spinning giant plates festooned with fixtures etc.. I came up in a world with no safety gizmos other than the one in between one's ears, which happens to be the only one that actually works. 
Got my first personal machine tool in ohhh maybe it was 1974, it was a TS. First thing I did was throw all the guards and safety gizmos in the trash. I find that pretty much everything they sell that is supposedly about safety is more trouble and way less safe than advertised, save for maybe the guard on my 12" Jointer. I kept that.


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

CR1 said:


> Got my first personal machine tool in ohhh maybe it was 1974, it was a TS. First thing I did was throw all the guards and safety gizmos in the trash. I find that pretty much everything they sell that is supposedly about safety is more trouble and way less safe than advertised


Wonderful life saga - however less than helpful when it comes to safety. Line shaft and flappy belts went out of favour in modern integrated electric motors from the _1930s_ onwards because they were _inefficient and unsafe_. Just because you haven't yet had your big accident, doesn't mean that one day you won't, and having no safety guards on a table saw, for example, is just downright stupid IMHO. It's a bit like arguing against wearing helmets whilst riding a motorcycle.......


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## IC31 (Nov 16, 2012)

CR1 said:


> LEMEEESEE NOW
> 
> I started running industrial machinery in very old machine shops where much of the power still came from shafts and pulleys in the ceiling. I'm talking engine lathes with 4' swings spinning giant plates festooned with fixtures etc.. I came up in a world with no safety gizmos other than the one in between one's ears, which happens to be the only one that actually works.
> Got my first personal machine tool in ohhh maybe it was 1974, it was a TS. First thing I did was throw all the guards and safety gizmos in the trash. I find that pretty much everything they sell that is supposedly about safety is more trouble and way less safe than advertised, save for maybe the guard on my 12" Jointer. I kept that.


That has to be one of the most irresponsible statements I have seen in print ANYWHERE. As I said above and you so kindly repeated "If you honestly believe that, then I wish the very best of luck to you and your future endeavors working with power tools." 

Please don't get me started on pre OSHA heavy industry shops as that's my beginnings in 1963 background - it sucked!!!


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

Remember guys, everyone has the freedom to express their opinion. We just have to know how to sort the wheat from the chaff.


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## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

jw2170 said:


> Remember guys, everyone has the freedom to express their opinion. We just have to know how to sort the wheat from the chaff.


True, but there needs to be counterpoint to such a statement... letting it go is equally irresponsible!


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## CR1 (Aug 11, 2011)

Phil P said:


> however less than helpful when it comes to safety.




You really didn't get it, did you. I'd guess that's because you never did learn to control your physical presence around machinery. So instead of self control, you substitute gizmoes and geegaws for brains and safe work habits. 
*And when someone tells you that there is another way, what do you do?*
You do this:


> is just downright stupid


You reduce yourself to nothing but another internet name caller. 




> Just because you haven't yet had your big accident,


That smacks of fatalism and is devoid of logic.

BTW motorcycles and machines are not analogous because on the road, you have to contend with idiots by the score who are not under your control. 

Learn to be in control of yourself and your machinery; learn what is and is not under your dominion and you will rid yourself of all those crippling nanny state geegaws and gizmoes and you will know what it is that you do need and why.


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

Please read "CR1's" profile before you respond........


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## IC31 (Nov 16, 2012)

jw2170 said:


> Please read "CR1's" profile before you respond........


Jim - now I understand better. NOTHING there!!! Anywhere! 

(And you can read what you want into that statement)


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## CR1 (Aug 11, 2011)

> That has to be one of the most irresponsible statements I have seen in print ANYWHERE.


And yet you are utterly incapable of framing a cogent explanation for why you think so. 

In fact you are entirely unaware of how it is that the geegaws and gizmoes you are so enamored of arose. 
They were are are created by nanny state thinkers who try (and fail) to create a safe environment for people who are either too inexperienced, too ineducable, or too stupid to develop personal safe habits and use their heads. 

I run into this attitude that you are showing quite often from kids whose lack of experience and brainwashed state forces them to believe that slathering all manner of crap on machinery makes them safe or even safer. It doesn't. All it accomplishes is it makes you dependent on the imaginings of other people in the hope that it might keep you safe while preventing you from learning how to do that yourself. 


Think of it like Fly by wire controls on a personal aircraft. They are not redundant nor particularly robust as on commercial craft, the weight factor disallows it. But they work great until they don't. When they don't the pilot will have been lulled by many hours of the computer doing all his small and fast adjustments, so that if they give out in a strong gusting crosswind during landing his chances of surviving are reduced dramatically because he has lost or never learned how to fly a plane without all that crap doing his thinking and responding for him.

Ever depress your brake pedal during an emergent stop or slow down situation and found that the safety gizmo that pumps your brakes for you has failed? It's just a gizmo. Things fail. if you are accustomed to those things you will have lost the instinctual pumping action. Maybe you know about it and safely here behind your computer you can assure yourself that you still have the skill - - but you don't. You handed the reaction time and skill set off in exchange for someone else's idea of how to manage your vehicle. 
God bless you if you really have to stop or stay on the road and that gizmo has failed.


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

jw2170 said:


> Please read "CR1's" profile before you respond........


Hi James

CR1 has no profile. Which matches their horse sense when it comes to wood machining.



CR1 said:


> You really didn't get it, did you. I'd guess that's because you never did learn to control your physical presence around machinery. So instead of self control, you substitute gizmoes and geegaws for brains and safe work habits.
> *And when someone tells you that there is another way, what do you do?*


Actually I *DID*. What I read was the ramblings of someone with no idea in the world about safety, nor about how to act responsibly. You made the following comment, _"Got my first personal machine tool in ohhh maybe it was 1974, it was a TS. First thing I did was throw all the guards and safety gizmos in the trash."_. That sums up your approach to safety in a nutshell. You're one of the _"it hasn't happened to me, so it won't ever/I must be safe, because...."_ brigade. You and people like you are precisely why OSHA was formed and it's because of dyed in the wool mindsets like yours that firms like SawStop can peddle their inventions.



CR1 said:


> And yet you are utterly incapable of framing a cogent explanation for why you think so.


Neither are you, from what I've read so far. Your closed mindset when it comes to safety has fortunately been stamped out by a combination of legislation and education. Much of it was engendered by sheer ignorance and it led to many, unnecessary accidents in the past. The rules brought in here in Europe, many of which are now being adopted by the OSHA in the USA, come out of painstaking analysis of actual accidents and in part from the pressure of the Trades Unions to make safer working environments for the ordinary shop floor worker. Personally, I've found the throwaway insult of "nanny state" to be one adopted by those whose own approach to safety is often cavalier or just plain ignorant. Well, they say ignorance is bliss - but on a machine like a spindle moulder, or even a router table with a 3-1/2in panel raising bit, ignorance can and does cause injuries. 

As you threw away all the "safety gizmos" on your saw, and you purport to understand all the dynamics of wood machining, maybe you'd like to explain the dynamics of a pinch cut whilst through ripping case-hardened 2in thick walnut on a saw with neither a riving knife, a crown guard, push sticks nor a short position rip fence. And how would an operator avoid an acident. How's about it? 

A word of warning, though, I'm no kid, no beginner and no amateur

As to the original question about the use of a NOVR (no volt release switch/magnetic switch) on a router table - the answer is obvious. Yes, you can do without it, but it is safer if you have one. Why? Because if you have a power failure during a cut the router will be isolated and won't just start spinning when the power kicks back in. Why is it necessary/ because we humans are forgetful. Why would I fit one to a router table? Think about it - by fixing a router beneath a table you are creating a sort of spindle moulder (shaper), and a manufactured unit like that will always come with a NOVR (magnetic) starter for safety - _and they've been doing so for 50 or more years_


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## IC31 (Nov 16, 2012)

Thanks for saying those words, Phil. I had started, but now dumped a response very similar, but also suggesting his similes really didn't apply well towards the average hobby woodworker such as most of us are. 

Oh and to CR1 - when did fly by wire controls become the norm in a personal (small) aircraft, i.e a prop single piston engined plane such as a Cessna?


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

IC31 said:


> TI had started, but now dumped a response very similar


Hi Dave

The thing is that I'm not totally in favour of every safety device out there - take my take on the SawStop, for example - and I'm not always the greatest fan of some of the Health and safery guys I must, by necessity, work with on occasion. But TBH I rarely find safety legislation which hasn't been thought through - I say rarely, but there are instances (like working at heights, use of ladders, etc) where I could cheerfully swing for the Safety Rep!

One thing I was taught, though, is the concept of disseminating best practice. I'm sure you are familiar with that. Our troll, however, isn't

Regards

Phil


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

Phil P said:


> As you threw away all the "safety gizmos" on your saw, and you purport to understand all the dynamics of wood machining, maybe you'd like to explain the dynamics of a pinch cut whilst through ripping case-hardened 2in thick walnut on a saw with neither a riving knife, a crown guard, push sticks nor a short position rip fence. And how would an operator avoid an acident. How's about it?


I don't have a riving knife or guard on my saw either. But not about to saw much of anything without push sticks, or a saw sled. Not sure what you mean by a 'short position rip fence'. I found the 'safety gizmos' more a pain than a help. I learned table saw safety in shop class in probably 1954-5, by a shop teacher, with a large commercial saw, with no 'safety gizmos'. He taught us what kickback was, demonstrated kickback, and taught us to never, ever, stand in line with the saw blade, so if there was kickback we would not be in line of it. After all that time I've never had kickback off a saw, and never stand in line with the blade. Safety for me is paying attention to what I'm doing, and keeping my body parts away from the whirly parts.


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## IC31 (Nov 16, 2012)

Phil - there are best practices and safety that we here on the Router Forums have to observe and propagate. I opened a thread a while back in regard to using a guard on a table saw. I seldom use the one supplied with my JET contractor saw as it is beyond hopeless - and to the point that I feel dangerous. I am building a replacement guard based on one found on the web and will eventually post to that thread - I just need to visit my steel supplier for some materials for the adjusting trapeze. I have installed a homemade splitter on the saw and since have not had a single kick back. I also use one of several push sticks, feather boards and have a GRR-Ripper which I like. That saw really winds up with a real 1.5Hp Leeson motor instead of the original JET motor, both of which are 3450 rpm.

Then there is OSHA - most of what they do, now that they are a reasonably mature organization, is pretty good vs their original days. I recall working in my early days - and pre OSHA. We had quite a few guys with missing fingers or even large parts of their hands, most of which came from the punch press area where 1K ton presses wouldn't even hesitate for a piece of their body. Some of those guys were nick named Lefty for obvious reasons. OSHA did fix that with improved safety devices and interlocks. I can relate other experiences while working in the shop, but that's for other discussions

And $3000 plus Saw Stop saws - a wet piece or two of wood, then a few $70 modules plus blades and you really want to return to the tried and true standard saws and get a decent guard. There are mumbles here in the US about requiring instant stop saws be sold in the future. 

Now with the confession above, I do use guards on about everything else in my shop that either came with one or should have


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

JOAT said:


> I don't have a riving knife or guard on my saw either. But not about to saw much of anything without push sticks, or a saw sled. Not sure what you mean by a 'short position rip fence'. I found the 'safety gizmos' more a pain than a help.


Hi Theo

Learning back in the mid-1950s is one thing, but TBH things have come a long way in nearly 60 years since then and I'm afraid to say that US industrial safety standards in some areas seem woefully inadequate to me (and before anyone asks, yes, I have worked in the US). Well designed riving knives started to come into use over here before WWI (1914), such as this after market item:










and became mandatory on static rip saws in the late 1920s, I believe. Note that illustration - it comes from a book published in *1910* called "The Modern Carpenter & Joiner" and illustrates "best safe practice" of the period (my historical research shows that the Glover guard dates back to the late 1890s in reality). Note also the short rip fence which became standard British practice for rip saws after the *1897 Workmens Compensation Act* in the UK and the suspended overhead crown guard. By the late 1920s all saw manufacturers here supplied such fences, riving knives and guards _as the norm_ on new rip saws. 

Properly designed riving knives actually do work - especially if you are unfortunate enough to get some "case-hardened" (over kilned) timber where the timber doesn't spread outwards away from the blade like bananas but instead pinches in on the back of the blade. That is just one kickback situation. Last time I had a bad one like that was 4 or 5 years back when I was ripping down some 14in wide x 2in thick American black walnut; the tension in the timber was so great that the timber eventually clamped itself firrmly onto the riving knife and blade, stalling a 9HP 3-phase 16in industrial rip saw! Without the riving knife that would possibly have been a 70kg lump of hardwood being launched in my general direction instead. It wasn't just the one piece, either - the entire batch turned out to be bad and the merchant was told to replace it. 

As a trainee it was hammered home time and again that safety depends on _three_ things; the machine must be properly designed and set-up, the operator must understand how to undertake the task at hand _safely_ and the operator must be alert and be concentrate on the job at hand with interruptions or distractions. Thus safety is a lot more than just "paying attention", I'm afraid. For more than my working life (that's more than 40 years) it has been regarded as unsafe practice here to work without a riving knife or crown guard on a table saw except when absolutely impossible to avoid the situation (e.g. ripping off tops of boxes) - and employers who permit this and have accidents attract a hefty fine. I understand that the OHSA takes a similar approach these days. My feeling that what's good for industry, where properly trained employees are supposed to be working on safe machinery, is equally how a home woodworker should try to approach things. Or are untrained amateur woodworkers immune in some way from the laws of physics? 

You asked about short rip fences, so I'll illustrate with some modern examples:










_Above: Hamer K3 saw showing rip fence in the "short" position
Below: Short rip fence position for normal ripping - the fence plate doesn't "carry through" meaning that reaction timber has somewhere to spread into and doesn't get pinched between the fence and the blade_



















_Above: European-style Hi-Lo fence plate in high position showing the need to remove the crown guard to make the cut. The Biesmeyer fence (and its many clones) suffers from this fault as well
Below: The Hi-Lo fence plate in the low position showing a narrow bevel cut being made with the guard in place. An auxilliary fance attached to a Biesmeyer fence can emulate this_










The so-called "short" position on the rip fence is only required for initial breaking down, such as centre ripping a 12in wide board. For final trimming to size, where the waste cuts will be very small and thin, e.g. taking a 6mm (1/4in) edge off a piece (which should be to the left of the blade), the short position is not necessary

Sorry for the history lesson, but I find it interesting to know how we've arrived where we are today.......

Regards

Phil


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## bnaboatbuilder (Jan 10, 2013)

Last year I ripped a bunch of 12' 2x6 whitewood to make about 600 linear feet of 1x3 strips to form the bows for my bow roof shed. The riving knife on my table saw becomes a no brainer in a situation like that, for both safety and improved cut quality.

Now when doing more fine cutting whether on table saw or router table, any cuts I make are decided on with both cut quality and safety of cut every time. No one else is involved when I'm working in my shop, but that doesn't mean safety should "ride in the back seat".

Being newer to a router table, I am very conscious of how best to apply featherboards, my hand placement, whether push blocks apply for the particular cut, clear plastic guard over the bit and starting pins.

I value my eyes and hands. Most anything within reason that adds protection or prevention is important. But The cost of a SawStop is simply too expensive for me. So much of what I cut on a table saw is done with the sled I built, keeping my eye on the blade at all times is mostly all that is needed. The sled itself is the safety device. I think I'll look into building one for my router table too.


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## IC31 (Nov 16, 2012)

Phil - thanks for the 'class' in different kinds of safety features available for table saws in Britain (and the rest of the dratted EU?). I have to do some thinking on how I can retrofit or design a riving blade/knife on my JET contractor saw. I've added a decent splitter, but quite frankly, it could be even better. I'm not sure that the short fence is of much benefit, but it is an interesting concept and might work fine if wood spread outwards instead of what I've usually seen, pinching together and the real reason for splitters and riving knives.

I guess we should consider starting a dedicated safety thread:yes4:.


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

IC31 said:


> Phil - thanks for the 'class' in different kinds of safety features available for table saws in Britain (and the rest of the dratted EU?)


Yes, Dave. We all arrived at much the same place by the late 1980s and we've "harmonised" the standards since then. Interestingly Australia and NZ have very similar safety standards to the UK and and Canada also has high safety standards from what I've read. From what little we see in the UK about the OSHA it appears that in recent years they have started to adopt quite a few of the safe design measures we've had for a long time (hence the adoption of riving knives by firms such as Powermatic). No nanny state but intelligent safety



IC31 said:


> I'm not sure that the short fence is of much benefit


If you centre rip a lot of stock it can be. No telling where reactive timber will go until you cut it. For trims and sheet material it's not really used (hence the sliding hi-lo rip fence plates on Euro saws)

Regards

Phil


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## CR1 (Aug 11, 2011)

> dynamics of a pinch cut whilst through ripping case-hardened 2in thick walnut on a saw with neither a riving knife, a crown guard, push sticks nor a short position rip fence. And how would an operator avoid an acident. How's about it?



I commonly rip up to almost 4" inch thick in oak, elm, and maple I harvest on my property. Not too much walnut though. I don't have large walnuts on the property. I run a 12" saw blade on a 4 HP motor.
The mechanics of a kickback can best be observed by watching closely what happens when a thin piece is being fed into the blade and because of it's lightness or spring in the wood is allowed to rise up just a tad onto the blade. A tooth can ( and often will) catch it and hurl it back toward the operator with enormous force and speed. You can watch it happen. When it happens in a thicker piece on the lee of the blade it is much harder to observe. 
However, the mechanics are pretty much the same. When the wood closes on the blade the blade picks the wood up a little bit and that's all it takes to start moving the wood back the way it came. It is not the part where the wood closes on the blade that is to be feared. You can power through that most of the time. It's the lifting part that is the root cause of the kick back.

The easiest way to prevent this is to never allow the stock to rise. That is, you firmly hold it onto the table through the cut and in so doing you prevent the blade from flipping it back at you. Watch most folks ripping on the TS. They apply very little downward pressure on the piece. They stand smack dab where a piece might go if they lose control of it. When they do lose control they are shocked believing that they did everything right. When you sense the wood closing on the blade that is no time to loosen one's grip (which is what most people do), it's time to lean down on the work and push. 

Rise prevention is pretty much exactly how the tool called "Board Buddies" operate. And while they are clumsy and in the way, they do perform as advertised.



I can't help you for the fact that you have been taught that absent all those so called safety gizmos you will not be safe. I can't help you with the fact that you have submissively outsourced your ability to be self directed to others whom you have never met and do not know. 

But, nothing you have said rises above the level of hyperventilating histrionics.

It is an unfortunate thing when a person encounters someone who does not share her view of things and the totality of her capacity to respond is is to use an offensive tone and to try to silence the contrary voice. If that that's it, then ya got nothing. 

You have yourself the most lovely day you possibly can now, ya hear?


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## CR1 (Aug 11, 2011)

IC31 said:


> Oh and to CR1 - when did fly by wire controls become the norm in a personal (small) aircraft, i.e a prop single piston engined plane such as a Cessna?


Did I say they were the norm? 

This kind of erecting your own straw-man from fabrications so you can burn it down and go away thumping your chest is pointless. 



Here Phillip is calling me closed minded while it was you two who started in with the nasty tone and insults and are trying to silence any differing opinions with rude offensive language and tone.

Phillip even tried to make the argument that experience in the most hazardous of machine environments simply can not translate into safe working habits and personal styles elsewhere with his really laughable "That was then and this is now" kind of argument that he delivered with the most dripping level of sarcasm he could muster. And yet he makes absolutely no sense while locking his mind as shut as a sprung steel trap. 


Really I should think that one might get tired of saying nothing while using so many words doing it.

I have an idea. I know it's really far out there in the land of - - what - - reason and according others some level of respect? Yah maybe that. 
Anyway here goes:
How about instead of attacking people with whom you disagree, engaging in insult festivals and trying to silence every voice that you don't understand or agree with - instead of that, why not try something like this:

"I don't agree. Maybe it's worked out well for you, but I can't see it working out well for me and by inference I don't see how it'll be better for others either." 

And then just leave it at that. Why not try that? Why do you feel a need to try to force others to kowtow to your idea of things?


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Ok, at this time I am going to suggest members read the forums respect policy and my quote. Lets keep this thread about safety. If anyone needs help editing their posts send me a PM.

While a properly adjusted saw is far less likely to be involved in a kickback incident they can still happen. Internal stresses in wood can allow it to close up when making a cut and this is where a splitter or riving knife protect you. This only works when the splitter or riving knife is the same thickness as the blade. If you have the urge to try a different blade double check that you will still be protected. A good example of this is the new 1/16" kerf blade from Infinity Cutting Tools. It will not work with conventional splitters or riving knives.


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