# RWS Episode on raised panels . . .



## dawziecat (Dec 8, 2009)

Well, it's getting close now. My bits for raising panels are ordered and should be "in the mail" now. I am getting antsy . . . quite eager to try this out.

Now, Bob and Rick of the RWS, so well known to this group, did a segment on raising panels.

A couple of surprising points:

1/ They went straight to the largest type of bit . . . 3 1/2" in diameter with integral backcutter. No mention at all of the vertical bit alternative.

2/ They cut everything in a single pass! In fact Bob seemed quite dismissive of any need to make several passes even with this humungous chunk of whirling steel. I forget his precise comment but it was to the effect that multiple passes just put more wear on the bits and result in them getting dull sooner and the the bits were "designed to do the job in one pass." (Please don't hold me to the exact words.)

Any comments about this from experienced panel raisers here? 

Of course, as always, he did things in a blur and it all looked so totally safe and easy!

The bits I ordered were from Busy Bee here in Canada. The rail and stile cutters were $80 and, for $90 they offered a boxed set including the 3 1/2" ogee raising bit. So, that seems an unbeatable deal . . . the raised panel cutter (no back cut though) for a mere $10 extra.

I ordered a vertical raising bit too. Looking forward to their getting here.


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## Hamlin (Dec 25, 2005)

The bit they used is/was 3 1/4" not 3 1/2". Also, OP no longer carries that bit. Somewhere here on the forums is listed a replacement bit that Freud makes. It will take some doing to find it. 

Also, Bob & Rick were/are using routers that are of the 3+hp size. These have the power to turn those large bits and take on the full cut without problems. If you have a router that's smaller than the 3+hp range, then, yes, you have to take it in "bites".


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Ken

I think the bit is 2 3/4" OD, the hole in the OP is 3 1/8" 

Terry ,if you think you can use the 3 1/2" bit in the OP system you are in for a surprise, it can be done but you will need to rework the plate 1st. 

"designed to do the job in one pass." = right on with Bob's words

#8689 1/2" x 2-3/4"
MLCS Raised Panel Carbide Tipped Router Bits 1

1pc 1/2"SH Convex Raised Panel w/Back Cutter Router Bit - eBay (item 140370919512 end time Jan-06-10 12:21:19 PST)

http://www.amazon.com/Freud-99-513-...ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1262224119&sr=1-9
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Hamlin said:


> The bit they used is/was 3 1/4" not 3 1/2". Also, OP no longer carries that bit. Somewhere here on the forums is listed a replacement bit that Freud makes. It will take some doing to find it.
> 
> Also, Bob & Rick were/are using routers that are of the 3+hp size. These have the power to turn those large bits and take on the full cut without problems. If you have a router that's smaller than the 3+hp range, then, yes, you have to take it in "bites".


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

Terry, first I am very impressed with you wildlife photography web site. Years ago, long before the internet was public, I set a goal of photodocumenting every biome on earth, including the marine biomes. I had nearly 400 slides of tropical marine animals.

to answer you question, I found the following information through the community search on Freud Raised Panel:

Bits for the Oak Park raised panel system

The 3 wing bits for the Oak Park panel raising system are no longer available. The jig will only function properly with certain sized bits. Here are the numbers of Freud bits that will work correctly with the system:
#99-264
#99-261
#99-263

There is also a video in the OakPark online catalog that shows how their Raised Panel fence is used.


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## dawziecat (Dec 8, 2009)

Well, I am not actually using the OP table or plate. My Plate will accommodate a 3 1/2" bit and my router is 3 1/4 hp. So there should be no especial problems for me in that regard.

Not using their fences either. While the fences used in the video are "elegant," they seem pricey too and their function rather easily easily emulated at home.

And , to round it out, I will not be using their bits, or their sled either. I guess it just their technique I was interested in comments on. The bit I ordered is indeed 3 1/2" and I was ignorant that the one they were using was smaller.

I still kind of thought small passes were to be used with any large bit . . . not just to minimize the load on the machine but to get a smoother cut and to minimize the possibility of tear out. Of course I will be using a backer block too.

Thanks for the replies so far . . . and the comments on my web site.


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## Hamlin (Dec 25, 2005)

Yup, Bj is correct about the bit size. My apologies for that, fingers get to typing faster than the brain works sometimes. 

You would only need to take multiple passes if you have a smaller router than the 3+hp size. These have the power to turn that size of bit without issues. One pass is great, again, provided you have a router to do the job. This is why it's always recommended to have the 3+hp BUT, the 2 1/4 hp - 2 1/2hp will do the same job. Only difference is, they will need to take the multiple pass method. 

Bob & Rick's method is quite simple. Remember, it follows the K.I.S.S. rule. As Rick says, Keep It Simple System. How they do things are just that.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

HI Terry

It's hard to use a backer block with the big panel bits but you can use the two bearing way to make in safer and less of a load on the router..

All that's needed is two bearings one with a bigger OD and then switch over to the standard bearing.. with the strait panels it's not big deal to just move the fence but with the other panel profiles it can be tricky with more than one pass..

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dawziecat said:


> Well, I am not actually using the OP table or plate. My Plate will accommodate a 3 1/2" bit and my router is 3 1/4 hp. So there should be no especial problems for me in that regard.
> 
> Not using their fences either. While the fences used in the video are "elegant," they seem pricey too and their function rather easily easily emulated at home.
> 
> ...


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## dawziecat (Dec 8, 2009)

bobj3 said:


> HI Terry
> 
> It's hard to use a backer block with the big panel bits but you can use the two bearing way to make in safer and less of a load on the router..
> 
> ...


Whoa! Baby steps, please. :laugh:

By "straight panels," I take it to mean no curves . . . just 4 ninety degree angles?

If so, straight panels are all I'm after. When I get bored with them, maybe I'll think about fancier ones . . but probably not . . .

My comment about the backer block was for the rails. I have no idea how a backer block could be used when cutting the panels.

When my bits get here, I guess I'll fool around with them a bit to see how the "one pass" system works with my new table. I've fashioned a sled, of sorts for coping the rails. The first iteration of it can be seen at this link: Photography of Terry Danks

See any reason why it won't work?


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Terry

OK 

" just 4 ninety degree angles? " = right on, but in time you will want to do the great ones, for clocks ,cabinet doors,etc.

" sled " no don't use it, I will show you the easy way without one.
and all your boards will come out dead on with out the need for any sanding them after the router job..

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dawziecat said:


> Whoa! Baby steps, please. :laugh:
> 
> By "straight panels," I take it to mean no curves . . . just 4 ninety degree angles?
> 
> ...


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## dawziecat (Dec 8, 2009)

bobj3 said:


> " sled " no don't use it, I will show you the easy way without one.
> =======


Don't leave me hanging, Bob. :laugh:

I hunted around a bit in your stuff here. Do you meant just push them through with a push block held tight up against the fence? Like in this link?
http://www.routerforums.com/attachments/jigs-fixtures/21143d1236650762-rail-coping-jig-8185.jpg


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Terry

You got it,,,the real key is to used a matched set of bits,once you put one in the table you don't want to move the router up or down from that point on..

A simple rubber grommet under the bit will give you a stop point when you switch the bits out..
The next real key is to use wide stock, make all the cuts and then rip the stock to size after the router job..
You may say I don't have wide stock, just glue it up ,it's going to get cut off anyway..when you rip the stock to size..

It's always best to use wider stock when you can,the normal size is 2 7/16" wide but you can make it 1' wide this way you can make it the light look if you want to..for glass doors,etc.

Use the magic number of 4" when you cut the parts for the door, I will stop at this point to let you soak up the items in the post.

read the link below
http://www.routerforums.com/router-...-site-why-not-bottom-out-your-router-bit.html


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dawziecat said:


> Don't leave me hanging, Bob. :laugh:
> 
> I hunted around a bit in your stuff here. Do you meant just push them through with a push block held tight up against the fence? Like in this link?
> http://www.routerforums.com/attachments/jigs-fixtures/21143d1236650762-rail-coping-jig-8185.jpg


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## Hamlin (Dec 25, 2005)

This might help you too.

-Sommerfeld's Tools For Wood


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## dawziecat (Dec 8, 2009)

OK . . . no sled necessary . . . just hold 'em against the fence and push 'em through with a good push block.

Whether or not the rail and stile bits I ordered are height matched I don't know at this point.

Say, that rubber grommet ain't gonn'a melt up in there is it? 

But . . .



bobj3 said:


> The next real key is to use wide stock, make all the cuts and then rip the stock to size after the router job.


for the life of me, I don't understand how this helps. It makes more work . . . taking pre cut stock, glue jointing it and ripping it apart after coping it? Surely, I misunderstand. It also makes for an upleasant job . . .i.e., ripping short rails on a radial arm saw, my weapon at hand. Ripping short pieces safely is not this saw's strong point, although, yes, it can be done . . . but I rather dislike doing it. :sad:




> Use the magic number of 4" when you cut the parts for the door . . .======


This too perplexes me somewhat. You mean use 4" stock for rails that will be ripped to 2 1/2" or so? What is the advantage to doing this?

What I had intended to do is to use HD purchased, nominal 3" wide sticks and make rails and stiles with them. 

Saves a lot of ripping for me. Could buy nominal 4" wide stock and do what you suggest but I remain at a loss as to why this is a good thing. 

Could you clarify why using oversize stock is desirable?


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Terry

Right on Terry  no big deal with wider stock 

Many of the R & P bits are match sets,but most are not setup with the big panel bits the norm.. I must have 20 or 25 big panel bits and they are all diff.

"that rubber grommet ain't gonn'a melt up in there is it?" = nope
Just a note ,,always start with the end grain cuts ,then put the pattern on the stock,on all the side parts then rip to size.

I also use the RAS,,,just clamp a stop board to the deck.set it 2 7/16" wide the norm,push the stock over to the stop block and rip off the part then flip it around and do it one more time for the short boards..
For the long boards set it up for the rip cut, clamp a tracker board to the deck and push the stock to the blade,you will need to reset the tracker board at the end of the pass and push it by the blade with a scrap stock..

This is one job that's best done on the table saw..but any port in a storm will do the job...
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dawziecat said:


> OK . . . no sled necessary . . . just hold 'em against the fence and push 'em through with a good push block.
> 
> Whether or not the rail and stile bits I ordered are height matched I don't know at this point.
> 
> ...


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

+1 "magic number of 4" ??????????


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Jim

See snapshots

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BigJimAK said:


> +1 "magic number of 4" ??????????


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## Hamlin (Dec 25, 2005)

Bj, just pointed one reason why I like Sommerfeld's "Tool" catalog so much. He has tips in each of his catalogs that helps make shop time so much easier. The tips are simplified and easy to follow. At first you may not understand but, once you try it, it "falls" into place.


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

Ahhhh, BJ.. Makes perfect sense! I've been eying his 6-pc Cabinetmakers set for about 6 months now. As I'm finishing up my DP cabinet and finalizing my RT cab in my mind (picked up the sheet goods yesterday) I've decided I'll need at least one door, so I can see it needs to go on my short-list.. but first his DVD set. Barring anything major, maybe next paycheck.

Ken & BJ.. How do you get a copy of his catalog? I don't see any place on his web site to order one, or any way to download one. There's a "shop catalog by page number", but it doesn't actually show you the catalog.. just a sublist of the items therein.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Jim

A quick FREE call will get the Cat.on the way, but do ask them for one of the older one if they still have one and the new ones..the new one is setup for Marc's new router bits...that cut 1/2" deep like the shaper...

You will be surprise how easy it is to make cabinets with just frames and save you tons of money by doing it that way  

" sheet goods " not cheap any more with just some sticks you can make great cabinets 



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BigJimAK said:


> Ahhhh, BJ.. Makes perfect sense! I've been eying his 6-pc Cabinetmakers set for about 6 months now. As I'm finishing up my DP cabinet and finalizing my RT cab in my mind (picked up the sheet goods yesterday) I've decided I'll need at least one door, so I can see it needs to go on my short-list.. but first his DVD set. Barring anything major, maybe next paycheck.
> 
> Ken & BJ.. How do you get a copy of his catalog? I don't see any place on his web site to order one, or any way to download one. There's a "shop catalog by page number", but it doesn't actually show you the catalog.. just a sublist of the items therein.


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## Hamlin (Dec 25, 2005)

Hi Jim,

Try here: https://www.sommerfeldtools.com/inforequest.asp

I do recommend that you look seriously at his entire DVD set. Well worth the price. You may have to sign-up, (create an account), on the web site, not sure. I did because, I have ordered from him before, (dvd set).


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## Hamlin (Dec 25, 2005)

Jim,

I think cat. #14 should have the older bits, 1/4", cat. #15 I think is the start of the newer ones, the 1/2" as Bj stated.


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

Thanks, Ken.. Signing up was the secret! 

BJ.. After signing up, I was able to request the current catalog but had to drop them n email to request the older one. While I was at it I told 'em about RouterForum and invited 'em to visit. With all of the shows Marc does, I'm sure he's mighty busy but who knows?

His DVD set is precisely what I am thinking about ordering next paycheck. Eight DVD's for $50 is cheap.. a couple of doors-turned-firewood would more than pay for it.. Besides, when things go well it reinforces my love of woodworking, rather than building my vocabulary. <g>


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Jim

If you don't get the older one, let me know I must have 20 or so around the shop..

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BigJimAK said:


> Thanks, Ken.. Signing up was the secret!
> 
> BJ.. After signing up, I was able to request the current catalog but had to drop them n email to request the older one. While I was at it I told 'em about RouterForum and invited 'em to visit. With all of the shows Marc does, I'm sure he's mighty busy but who knows?
> 
> His DVD set is precisely what I am thinking about ordering next paycheck. Eight DVD's for $50 is cheap.. a couple of doors-turned-firewood would more than pay for it.. Besides, when things go well it reinforces my love of woodworking, rather than building my vocabulary. <g>


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## Hamlin (Dec 25, 2005)

8 dvds???? Rut roh, I'm missing one then.  I guess I know where I'm heading before logging off.


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