# Raised Panels: Router vs. Table Saw???



## PorterCable690 (Apr 24, 2012)

Raised panels add a great finishing touch to many wood working projects such as cabinets doors, architectural elements, furniture and passage way doors. Creating the raised panels may be more straight forward than you would think. The knee jerk reaction is to think this can be accomplished with a router, router table and ogee bit, of course. Easier said than done; anyone who has attempted this with a router knows extreme care is paramount. Big diameter bits (>3"-diameter) spinning at 10,000-rpm can be intimidating. Add to the equation creating a raised _arched_ panel and that means attempting the feat without a router fence...Yikes!

Enter the table saw. Yep, I said table saw. Now raised panels can be fabricated via a tricky little jig attached to the keystone of every wood shop. Advantages? The raised panel is easier to handle on the table saw, especially when long raised panel cuts are needed and you get a true straight cut. The raised panel jig has a high fence (24"-Tall) and a perpendicular foot that the saw blade protrudes through at 12.5-degrees. This set up gives excellent stability and allows hand positioning well away from the saw blade enhancing control and improving safety. I did an experiment with multiple increasingly deep cuts and with one pass full depth cut. The one pass full depth cut is definitely the way to go...it is slower but the end product is much cleaner and requires way less finish sanding.

Give the table saw due consideration when fabricating your raised panels.


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## CharleyL (Feb 28, 2009)

I've made raised panels both ways and prefer using a 3 hp router in the table but it takes a solid table and a good setup to get good cuts. Down force feather boards are needed to keep the work against the table and they can't be located above the area that will be cut. The only time that I don't use my router table fence in addition to the bearing on the bit is when cutting the arched edge of the panels. If the panels are arched I will cut all sides of the panel on the router table with the same setup, only removing the fence when doing the arched side. A round bit guard above the bit is then used.

A table saw will do a good job of raising panels, but it can only do the straight non-arched cuts. Arched panels that were built before shapers and routers had their arched edge hand carved. This is still done if the arch requires a tight inside curve that can't be completely cut because of the large diameter of the router bit or shaper cutter.

Charley


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## Sue-kelly (Jul 16, 2012)

*Depends on the quality of the table-saw....*



PorterCable690 said:


> Raised panels add a great finishing touch to many wood working projects such as cabinets doors, architectural elements, furniture and passage way doors. Creating the raised panels may be more straight forward than you would think. The knee jerk reaction is to think this can be accomplished with a router, router table and ogee bit, of course. Easier said than done; anyone who has attempted this with a router knows extreme care is paramount. Big diameter bits (>3"-diameter) spinning at 10,000-rpm can be intimidating. Add to the equation creating a raised _arched_ panel and that means attempting the feat without a router fence...Yikes!
> 
> Enter the table saw. Yep, I said table saw. Now raised panels can be fabricated via a tricky little jig attached to the keystone of every wood shop. Advantages? The raised panel is easier to handle on the table saw, especially when long raised panel cuts are needed and you get a true straight cut. The raised panel jig has a high fence (24"-Tall) and a perpendicular foot that the saw blade protrudes through at 12.5-degrees. This set up gives excellent stability and allows hand positioning well away from the saw blade enhancing control and improving safety. I did an experiment with multiple increasingly deep cuts and with one pass full depth cut. The one pass full depth cut is definitely the way to go...it is slower but the end product is much cleaner and requires way less finish sanding.
> 
> Give the table saw due consideration when fabricating your raised panels.


Hi, I have this dilemma as I'm making lots of frame and panel - fitting out my house. My tablesaw is a wonderful old Wadkin PK, but the blade seriously needs replacing which I can't afford at the moment, and the wobble makes for too much work cleaning up. My trusty old Hitachi 2hp router, with a home-made router table does the job with minimal cleanup afterwards. The trick is to do the end-grain first, so that any breakout is taken away leaving a very clean finish.


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## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

PorterCable690 said:


> Give the table saw due consideration when fabricating your raised panels.


As most if not all the raised panels I do are cathedral arched panels with ogee or roman ogee profiles, this is not really on option for me.

However with proper tooling and jigs, they are quite easy to do and reasonably safe.

Guess it goes to show there are several ways to accomplish most things! Use the one that suit you best:no:.


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## PorterCable690 (Apr 24, 2012)

The table saw is quite an amazing tool and made even more amazing with engaged imagination. 

So here ya go: Make your raised panels as previously described above using the table saw for the straight cuts, then... go at it again on the table saw this time at an angle with a coping jig. Viola'.... curved raised panels! Crazy stuff...


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi

You must be joking, it can done with just one router bit and it's safe.
And all done with a $30.oo router bit and normal router table.

MLCS Raised Panel Carbide Tipped Router Bits 2

====



PorterCable690 said:


> The table saw is quite an amazing tool and made even more amazing with engaged imagination.
> 
> So here ya go: Make your raised panels as previously described above using the table saw for the straight cuts, then... go at it again on the table saw this time at an angle with a coping jig. Viola'.... curved raised panels! Crazy stuff...


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## PorterCable690 (Apr 24, 2012)

No joke there Jigs... 

Just another technique to accomplish the same goal....


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

OK, looks like a great way to remove fingers  or to scare the bejesus out of you .

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PorterCable690 said:


> No joke there Jigs...
> 
> Just another technique to accomplish the same goal....
> 
> ...


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

It's not that bad Bob. It's a technique. I've done on table saws, radial arm saws, router tables.

Doing on a table saw... It's quick. It's easy. It's *plain*. You get a straight type cut. To me, that's just a step above a shaker door. I've done symmetric and asymmetric eliptical coves, but that alone is still plain.

When I'm doing restoration, if a bit or shaper cutter blade isn't available in that profile, then I'll do it on a table saw or RAS... but it takes me 3 to 4 setups/cuts on each edge to replicate the profile. Each one of those setups, if you're doing a cove cut, you have to go at about 1/4" each pass, with 1/32" on the last pass. Some of that profile might be with a bevel using a dado. 

Same on my RAS. If the piece is smaller than 22", I'd rather do it on the RAS than a TS. Time and effort between tooilng steps is shorter and I can see right were each tooling setup needs to begin to blend together where the last setup ended. I have the choice of doing with a blade, dado or use router bits at beveled angles. Using router bits on an RAS still takes me 3-4 setups to replicate a profile with depth adjustments 1/4 at a time. 

There's more sanding to do to get the saw marks out. I don't care what kind of blade you use, pushing sideways on a TS blade leaves tooling marks. Because of this, I found that if I use a sharp courser blade, 24 to 40 tooth, then things go faster, I don't burn the blade or work, and the results are the same quality wise. There still is more to sand to get to where a router bit or shaper blade would leave it. When doing restorations, I have to sand to clean up the tooling setup step transitions to make those separate steps into a one seamless profile.

So the comment on a table saw being easier and safer than a router table for making raised panels? Experience tells me that a router table or shaper is easier and more profiles are available. You can get more detailed and elaborate doing raised panels on a router table. You don't need to balance a panel on edge with a jig straddling the fence... Etc.

Don't get me wrong, I'm always entertained by a challenge and I love working on one of my table saws with assorted jigs, but doing raised panels on a TS for me is an alternate backup kind of thing. Sort of to the tune of: _"If I have to, I can... "_ (But maybe not my first choice.)


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Mike

I have been using the table saw and the RAS for MANY years (50 plus years) to make door panels but the safe way with a jig but not in the cove way, just looks unsafe to me ,no need to make a easy job into a hard one and a unsafe one for me..I have all my fingers and I'm going to keep them in place..most of the stories you hear about are about the table saw or to say someone using it the wrong way..  


===


MAFoElffen said:


> It's not that bad Bob. It's a technique. I've done on table saws, radial arm saws, router tables.
> 
> Doing on a table saw... It's quick. It's easy. It's *plain*. You get a straight type cut. To me, that's just a step above a shaker door. I've done symmetric and asymmetric coves, but that alone is still plain.
> 
> ...


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

bobj3 said:


> Hi Mike
> 
> I have been using the table saw and the RAS for MANY years (50 plus years) to make door panels but the safe way with a jig but not in the cove way, just looks unsafe to me ,no need to make a easy job into a hard one and a unsafe one for me..I have all my fingers and I'm going to keep them in place..most of the stories you hear about are about the table saw or to say someone using it the wrong way..


I hear you. I feel you. And I'm with you on that. I didn't say that what I do is safe for someone starting off without experience. ( Warning Label: "Attempting this may cause death." Caution Label: "We are not _responsible_." ) And me, even with experience, that technique is not my first choice to make panels. I start dragging my heels and looking for other ways, before finally resigning to do it that way. *Raised panels are so easy to make on a router table.*

I think the problem with the published statistics is that they don't take into consideration of any other factors surrounding that accident. There is a large number of TS accidents, but how does that stack to the total number of TS accidents per the total number of TS owners... sort of like "as per capita." There has got to be a whole lot of TS owners out there. Then there is- what was the operation they were doing during the incident and what was the operator's skill level at doing that operation itself.

I'm not sugar coating any of that. An accident on a table saw can happen in an instant. It doesn't care who you are and can be unforgiving. I respect that. But saying that, I don't think the whole story is there. 

To do that operation and when using other operations on a table saw with jigs- You are disabling some of the safety features of the saw (ex: removing the overhead blade guard and the anti-kick-back pawls). Next thing that starts the flashing lights is that a high percentage of those accident reports were reported with the work between the blade and the rip fence (a close proximity)... Ding, Ding, Ding. You're setting a panel on edge, with the fence within 3/8" from the blade. Whether it's secured in a jig that slides on the fence or not... that kick-back potential is there. On the other side of that, people lose fingers (and more) on router tables also.

Just like routers and router tables, IMHO, the majority of people owning table saws are not even scratching the surface of what they can do with the tools they have. Most aren't even aware of the capabilities of their own tools... or the dangers thereof. A 3-5hp saw can launch a piece of wood a long ways... Or worse, with the wrong happenstances, pull a user into it's blade path. 

But that's life right. We don't intentionally try to setup an accident to happen. Those that do end up on the Darwin Awards List. Some accidents we can try to prevent. (Being aware of the potential dangers.) Some accidents are just that, freak accidents.

EDIT-- (added in later) Doing a cove cut on a table saw reminds me of using a router table with different kind of bit. After a few times, it just seems natural. You have what, 4 router tables now? The difference is in that you have to figure out what that profile is going to be. Which is not always readily "apparent." No-one that I've found has a table or a simple formula to figure that out. I have samples that I made up with the angles and bevels and with different blade sizes... to match up for setups.


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## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

MAFoElffen said:


> No-one that I've found has a table or a simple formula to figure that out. I have samples that I made up with the angles and bevels and with different blade sizes... to match up for setups.


Don't know how simple you would consider it, but...

Cove cutting table calculator

But back to the OP subject, I will still use the router table, or better yet, my shaper for raised panels! 

Coves, that is another story, can and often do those on the table saw.


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Thank very much for the consideration. Unfortunately, I have a copy of that one. Not available is assymetric eliptic coves, where the sides are not mirrored. Besides the angle of approach to the blade (angled fences), you add a blade bevel angle. The closest I've come to a sample of data without just cutting and adjusting on scrape, is by trying to replicate a table saw table and blade in CAD, rotate the view for the approach angle and tilt the blade in relation to the table plane in the model for the bevel, then print it out. 

An eyeball approach is to set the angle, bevel and blade height, get myself level with the table on sight the blade to see the profile.

On panels and router tables = agreed... As I replicate another today on a saw. What a @#$%^& chore!!!


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Mike

" Some accidents are just that, freak accidents."
Just not so most are user errors ..  short cuts the norm..

Using a tool in a way that it was not made to do..a table saw is not a sharper or router table = user error..

I have 8 router tables .

===



MAFoElffen said:


> I hear you. I feel you. And I'm with you on that. I didn't say that what I do is safe for someone starting off without experience. ( Warning Label: "Attempting this may cause death." Caution Label: "We are not _responsible_." ) And me, even with experience, that technique is not my first choice to make panels. I start dragging my heels and looking for other ways, before finally resigning to do it that way. *Raised panels are so easy to make on a router table.*
> 
> I think the problem with the published statistics is that they don't take into consideration of any other factors surrounding that accident. There is a large number of TS accidents, but how does that stack to the total number of TS accidents per the total number of TS owners... sort of like "as per capita." There has got to be a whole lot of TS owners out there. Then there is- what was the operation they were doing during the incident and what was the operator's skill level at doing that operation itself.
> 
> ...


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## PorterCable690 (Apr 24, 2012)

Gentlemen:

My intent in starting this thread was to accomplish two objectives:
1) Share with others a table saw technique that I found useful while doing a project where a >12-inch straight cut and an arched cut creating raised panels resulted in a crisp, clean, accurate outcome; and
2) Continue the promotion of safety to mitigate risks and help keep care in the forefront of our minds to preclude the recurrence of what occurred in the photos below.

To clarify, the raised panel jig that I created has a very sturdy 24-inch tall by 30-inch long fence that the panel mates against during the cut. That is over 400-square inches of surface area available for much stability during the entire cut path. I do not stand behind the panel as it is cut. I stand parallel to the TS so my hand feed direction is left to right. Also, the panels I was cutting were over 30-inches long. That's a challenge on any standard router table. My hands were over 12-inches away from the TS blade during the entire cut. In addition, while kick back on the TS is always a concern, being able to completely two hand the panel - one on the leading edge and one on the trailing edge - kick back is virtually impossible. Having so much hand feel, allows direct sensing of whether kick back is about to happen - panel binding or change of cutting plane midstream, which are usually the causes of kick back, can be easily forecasted. Even if by some random act, the panel does get kicked back, since I'm standing on the side of the TS, no one can be injured. 

Whenever I plan out a cutting, shaping, sanding or bore hole approach on a piece of power equipment, I ask myself what could go wrong that would result in an injury and how can I prevent it from occurrence. Most times I dry run an unfamiliar motion with the power off just to visualize the force vectors at work.

Safety is top priority and innovation is the spice of woodworking...just sayin'.

These are not my fingers, they belong to one of our fellow forum contributors.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Keith

Can't wait until you find out about the horiz.router table and how easy and safe you can make big panels..

MLCS Horizontal Router Table

http://www.routerforums.com/project-plans-how/9782-best-both-worlds.html

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PorterCable690 said:


> Gentlemen:
> 
> My intent in starting this thread was to accomplish two objectives:
> 1) Share with others a table saw technique that I found useful while doing a project where a >12-inch straight cut and an arched cut creating raised panels resulted in a crisp, clean, accurate outcome; and
> ...


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

PorterCable690 said:


> <<Editted>>
> To clarify, the raised panel jig that I created has a very sturdy 24-inch tall by 30-inch long fence that the panel mates against during the cut.
> 
> That is over 400-square inches of surface area available for much stability during the entire cut path. I do not stand behind the panel as it is cut. I stand parallel to the TS so my hand feed direction is left to right. Also, the panels I was cutting were over 30-inches long. That's a challenge on any standard router table. My hands were over 12-inches away from the TS blade during the entire cut.
> ...


Remember that I do panels on both router tables and on table saws... I use this TS jig, which is not new. It is the same type of jig as mortise and tenon joints. Mine is 36"x36" with slots across it for clamps to hold the panel. My fence is adjustable, not just for parallel to the bladed, but for perpendicular to the table and level from front to rear. At the back of my jig is also an adjustable leg that rides in the right miter slot, to add more stability and to aid in keeping it perpendicular to the table, support for big panels. 

It creates a somewhat plain raised panel for a cabinet door.

For cove types of panels created on a table saw, you lay the panel down, face towards the table, as you would on a router table. Traditional cove cuts on a TS you have the whole cut, both sides, with a fence on each side.

In cutting coves for panels, you use just a part of the cut in your profile, cut partially into the edge of the panel. Therefore you need a fence that allows a part of that profile, with part of the blade hidden in the fence. So I have a TS fence for that that is more like router fence. Along with that, usually panels are wider/longer that trim moulding, so you just use the leading fence, instead of a pair of fences.

There are the same types of jigs for router tables for shallow mortise and tenon joints and other end-grain cuts. Those, being supported, are safer than trying to do those unsupported/freehand against the fence. For that, I adjust my router table's fence for perpendicular for these jigs. *I cannot compare my TS raised panel jig I have that is like yours to any jig I use for creating raised panels on one of my router tables.* The work process is different. Like I described above for TS cove cuts, you lay the panel down flat on the table, face down towards the bit, and slide the panel.

Bob, has an advantage over that, (I remember him sharing these when he was helping me setup my RAS) he owns "2" MLCS horizontal router tables (see his album), where he can come into a piece of work, not just horizontally, but at an angle, with a router bit. I can do that on small pieces up to 22" with my RAS... But he can easier, faster, safer and with better quality.

So my problem is not really with jig itself. It is a good jig that simplifies things and makes things easier and safer. It has applications (besides just panels) that are shared between router tables and tables saws. My problem with it as being used for raised panels is more on the type of results it produces.

1, it's plain. 2, it produces a continuous angled cut between the edge to the face. So at the edge joint where it meets the rail or stile, there is no room left for expansion. I was taught to leave about 1/8" there. We have big changes of humidity here. In the past when using this jig for raised panels for customers, after about 5 years, some of those expanded (or continually expanded/contracted) and ended up popping a corner loose / loosening up.

What I figured out differently for that style door, I now make them with router table cut at 1 1/2" in from the edge, 3/16 deep with a 1/4" round nosed router bit. TS Dado beveled at 15 degrees with the leading edge up to that rounded cut. End that bevel down to 7/16" to 1/2" depth. Router table with the 1/4" round nose for a transition. Straight dado the last 5/8". Back-cut with a straight dado cut for 5/8" with a depth to create a 1/4 thick spline. 1/4" round nose at the end of that to finish it. That way I can used 3/8" tooling depth in my rails and stiles and get 1/8" of expansion room... Those 1/4 round cuts give a good transition point that ends up looking more finished and professional.

But it should end up costing less than a more elaborate raised panel door. The way I do it now ends up taking more labor than other raised panel door that I make on the router table with one bit. I could do it as I used to and you pointed out, but I don't feel right about it and I do have to back them. I end up loosing money on these style doors because I'm stuck on making them how I feel I "can" stand behind them.


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## panzer (Dec 22, 2010)

I'm sorry guys! I've only been woodworking for about 2 yrs. but I'll keep using my raised panel jig unless you can do this with a t/s or router table. If you have a design you think would be impossible, please post a pic. or a sketch and I will be happy to make a panel. Might be fun for all of us.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi John

How about a picture of the back side of the panel ?,,,looks like a easy job for the router table but not to sure until I see a picture of the back side..
It looks like you are using the 5 parts way to make the panel door ..(R & S parts and panel insert)

==



panzer said:


> I'm sorry guys! I've only been woodworking for about 2 yrs. but I'll keep using my raised panel jig unless you can do this with a t/s or router table. If you have a design you think would be impossible, please post a pic. or a sketch and I will be happy to make a panel. Might be fun for all of us.


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## panzer (Dec 22, 2010)

Hi
You are right, it is a five part door with a true floating panel with space balls. It is also perfectly flat because of a new jig I bought in June. Just my opinion, but out of all the videos and in person I've seen on raised panels with T/S and Router tables/shaper, I have not seen a easier safer way then the jig I use. Like I said, I would love to see a sketch of a panel you or anyone else would feel is impossible or difficult to make. Like I was taught, If the bit fits I can make it. The reason I'm pushing for your ideas is because if I can find a shape that I or if John can't teach me to make, I win $1000.00. I thought it would be an easy, but I'm out of ideas!


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

hi John

Thanks for the snapshot, now I see that it would be easy on the router table but I still would like to see a picture of the jig you use.. 

Looks all the parts of the frame are all made the same way as the top rail of a door frame. but I'm sure why you would do that not the norm..


====


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## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

panzer said:


> Hi
> You are right, it is a five part door with a true floating panel with space balls. It is also perfectly flat because of a new jig I bought in June. Just my opinion, but out of all the videos and in person I've seen on raised panels with T/S and Router tables/shaper, I have not seen a easier safer way then the jig I use. Like I said, I would love to see a sketch of a panel you or anyone else would feel is impossible or difficult to make. Like I was taught, If the bit fits I can make it. The reason I'm pushing for your ideas is because if I can find a shape that I or if John can't teach me to make, I win $1000.00. I thought it would be an easy, but I'm out of ideas!


Looks interesting.. however the guy's web site is down and this is the only info I can find..
Our goal at woodjam products is to provide you with the best and safest hand held router jigs and fixtures by Woodjamproducts

I sent an email.. will see I guess!

Wouldn't count on receiving that $1000.00 tho, unless you know this guy!


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## panzer (Dec 22, 2010)

It's not the jig, it's how you're taught to use it. The pic. is showing the door side ways. I guess I could have made the top and bottom rails longer but the whole thing with curves is to try to make everything flow as best you can.


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

panzer said:


> Hi
> You are right, it is a five part door with a true floating panel with space balls. It is also perfectly flat because of a new jig I bought in June. Just my opinion, but out of all the videos and in person I've seen on raised panels with T/S and Router tables/shaper, I have not seen a easier safer way then the jig I use. Like I said, I would love to see a sketch of a panel you or anyone else would feel is impossible or difficult to make. Like I was taught, If the bit fits I can make it. The reason I'm pushing for your ideas is because if I can find a shape that I or if John can't teach me to make, I win $1000.00. I thought it would be an easy, but I'm out of ideas!


John,

You got my curiosity up enough that I looked at your profile and read all your posts to try to figure out just what you are trying to say with this post.

On you and your background, your profile has some holes where you didn't fill in anything but your name and country... so I can't tell your experience level or the types of tools you use. From your posts, you said you started with woodworking about 2 years ago. 1 1/2 years ago you bought a rails and stiles jig from a company for $150 dollars. You didn't say whether this jig was for a TS, router or shaper... But I'm assuming by the pic's you posted that it's for a router. Your posts don't mention what tool you use this jig with.

In another post you said that the company you bought this jig from, since the jig was new and I'm assuming this company was too, enlisted you in a test program and trained you on their jig. You posted the companies website-> I get a "not-found." on that. They gave you a challenge with a cash prize if you find something that the jig cannot do- described in my words as if you can find a shape of rail/stile/panel that cannot be made with that jig... that the company is marketing that it can do all shapes.

I'm curious to see a picture of this jig and know more about the company. But without that info, since you haven't been real descriptive about it, it just appears/seems like vapor-ware. Maybe you should start a new thread to show off this jig and it's use (Please?). Just good marketing and it would give us a visual of what you are talking about.

That said, I've also said that with tools, I have to ask myself- Is it going to give me capabilities I don't currently have, make things faster and easier? If so, it's going to make me money. Since stile bits have bearing support, I can do all shapes you have shown on a router table as freehand or with a support post. What does that jig add to that? 

So the question in my head is, did you pay $150 for a jig that you didn't need because, with your skill level, you didn't know you already had those capabilities? Or does this jig truly add more capabilities that you haven't been able to describe here yet?

My inquiring mind wants to know...


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## panzer (Dec 22, 2010)

Hi Mike
In keeping with your objectives I was just providing another option that I felt was safer and more versatile. In addressing the web site being down, apparently viewers of the web site were trying to copy the products from the pictures and had the gall to E-mail/call John and ask him how to use it.That squashes the whole idea of a small business-person trying to make a living in my book. His web site became unmanageable and he closed it. In my book that isn't "vaporware". John has a whole arsenal of products that were designed to help fellow woodworkers, new and seasoned. For instance making this cabinet door that you may be able to make but others can't. I'm not here to sell anything to you or anyone else, I'm just here like you to pass on and receive information that may help others as well as myself. Mike, everything aside, I would love to see one your doors like this. I'm always open to new idea's.


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

Hi "John".

Still waiting for answers to questions raised by Mike????


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## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

panzer said:


> Hi Mike
> In keeping with your objectives I was just providing another option that I felt was safer and more versatile. In addressing the web site being down, apparently viewers of the web site were trying to copy the products from the pictures and had the gall to E-mail/call John and ask him how to use it.That squashes the whole idea of a small business-person trying to make a living in my book. His web site became unmanageable and he closed it. In my book that isn't "vaporware". John has a whole arsenal of products that were designed to help fellow woodworkers, new and seasoned. For instance making this cabinet door that you may be able to make but others can't. I'm not here to sell anything to you or anyone else, I'm just here like you to pass on and receive information that may help others as well as myself. Mike, everything aside, I would love to see one your doors like this. I'm always open to new idea's.


 _ I have a neat new jig that I designed. You can buy one for say $150.00. I won't show it to you or tell you what it does, but trust me, you really need one! _

That is not a good business model. There are things such as copyright and patents to protect intellectual property. I know they aren't perfect, but from the information I can find, I can't even tell if he has a product I might be interested in, what it costs, can I actually buy one? Can't even tell if it is just a scam. At least there also is no way to send him money.:'(


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## panzer (Dec 22, 2010)

I'm sorry James
Yes that's what I paid and I'm not as skilled as you may think, I think the capabilities are endless. Is it faster? I don't know! Is it safe? Yes! Is woodworking fun? Yes! Have I learned a lot from John? Yes! Have I learned a lot from this site and others? Yes! Do I keep the same name on all sites? Yes if no one else has it already! Do other people? I think not! Do I care? Not really!


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## panzer (Dec 22, 2010)

Duane
I have nothing to sell! On this thread I was just pointing out that I do it differently. Like Mike and others have stated they can make the same door and more on their router tables very easily and I think that's great.


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

panzer said:


> Hi Mike
> In keeping with your objectives I was just providing another option that I felt was safer and more versatile. In addressing the web site being down, apparently viewers of the web site were trying to copy the products from the pictures and had the gall to E-mail/call John and ask him how to use it.That squashes the whole idea of a small business-person trying to make a living in my book. His web site became unmanageable and he closed it. In my book that isn't "vaporware". John has a whole arsenal of products that were designed to help fellow woodworkers, new and seasoned. For instance making this cabinet door that you may be able to make but others can't. I'm not here to sell anything to you or anyone else, I'm just here like you to pass on and receive information that may help others as well as myself. Mike, everything aside, I would love to see one your doors like this. I'm always open to new idea's.


Wait- I asked questions. They have not been answered yet. I have to agree with the others, a copyright or patent on a jig will protect him, if he is selling something that is original. As to the company, if I had a product that I was selling, I would need open access from a customer base to buy from me.

Sorry. I have over 40 years of woodworking experience, a number of them in the trades. Yes, I could make that door in many ways, using different techniques... I'm not bragging. Just pointed out that without seeing the jig or a description of what it does or what it brings to the table... That there might be a dozen ways to do the same thing, with the same or less effort, cheaper. Without seeing your jig and it's use, there's no way to evaluate that. On me being able to do something others can't... that's why me and others are here --> to share those skills with each other. I don't claim to know everything. I just know what "_I've_" been exposed to and have experience with.

But that's only part of what I asked. If we can't see the jig itself, see it in use somewhere, have access to the company to buy it, then yes, it is vaporware to us-- because we wouldn't be able to buy it or use it. Nor would we "_want_" to buy an unknown.

Does that now make any sense? Nothing personal about any of that.

I'm sure someone here could get a jig from them, demo it and give it a review that people worldwide could understand and follow. But not if it's some sort of secret. I won't recommend something I don't know about or not have experience with. I stand on my word and my work. That means a lot to me.


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## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

Well, I did get an answer to my email to John at WoodJamProducts.
Here is a short excerpt from that email...

"we are currently only selling newlly designed products to our past customers. We are also restructuring how we do business because of copies trying to be made. Thank you for your interst"(sic).

For what it's worth, I guess!


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## panzer (Dec 22, 2010)

Hey Mike, Where are those door pics? Hey Duane, did I miss any letters while typing? Wow! Those are both questions. Boy! I say I use a jig for raised panel doors because one person likes the t/s and the other likes the r/t and this turns into wwf. Mike, Would you please post a video on how you would make these doors? Duane, Would you please be our official spell checker? I may test you now and then, so be careful. Thank you both in advance! Sorry Keith your post got bashed!


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## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

panzer said:


> Hey Mike, Where are those door pics? Hey Duane, did I miss any letters while typing? Wow! Those are both questions. Boy! I say I use a jig for raised panel doors because one person likes the t/s and the other likes the r/t and this turns into wwf. Mike, Would you please post a video on how you would make these doors? Duane, Would you please be our official spell checker? I may test you now and then, so be careful. Thank you both in advance! Sorry Keith your post got bashed!


John, I did not and don't have time to check your spelling! the (sic) was in reference to the excerpt from John from your Jig Manuf., not your post!!

Can't speak for Mike, but like Mike I have read your posts in several threads about this great jig you have. I was very interested in its possible application. However neither you nor the jigs manufacturer choose to answer questions, so it matters not if it would be useful.. I can not find out or buy one anyway!

It is not personal at all.. just would have liked to know what all the post were about.
But life will go on!

Like Mike, if I had a need for that kind of panel, I could do it on the router table without too much effort. I am into more standard type panels, myself. Thought the jig might be useful for other task, but guess I 'll never know!

In that sense, it is relevant to the thread, which as I recall was about Table saw VS Router for raised panels.

Sorry if seeking more info bothers you. This is my last post on the subject!


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## PorterCable690 (Apr 24, 2012)

Bashed? 

No way...this is cheap online entertainment. I told my wife just after posting up this thread that this was going to cause controversy. Somehow, my intuition tugged at my shirt sleeve going into this subject. I mean, look at Bob...poor guy had a small cardiovascular accident (CVA) over this thread. How dare a virtual newbie to this forum bring forward some alternative techinque with, God-for-bid, a tool other than a router? After all he has, countem...8 routers plus 50-years experience, or some such statistics, relegating him to "Oh venerable grand poo-bah" status. No offense Bob. I, personally, love to hear differing points of views and technical approaches from as many as possible so that I can grow in planning, design, engineering, fabrication and installation. Don't we all? Anyone familar with my posts knows I try to include photos and recipes with a respective level of detail to spurn subsequent advancement of the art. I do this because all of your input has provided me a veritable treasure trove of great ideas that I have included in my designs... for which, I am truly grateful. 

Somebody educate me if my understanding was off-base. I thought this was a "town square" where fellow woodworkers could congregate to share, discuss, debate, and otherwise, chew the fat about our, in my case, weekend passion. An altenative to physically hanging out at Rockler.


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Keith- You saw that right.

Duanne saw that right and saw my intent also. As Duanne, I'm always open to something new or different. I did have honest genuine interest in seeing what John Jig was about. 

What I saw on the company's background was that they make free-hand router jigs, which if that was true, would have brought another flavor to this raised panel discussion. I've never made a rail or stile with a free-hand router. That would definitely be something new to learn about.

I asked John not to take what I said the wrong way. I did not "_try_" to offend him. Did it really come out in a way that I bashed him? Oh, well.

John- Take note of this please. You seemed to have read too much into it. Do not take things so serious and keep a sense of humor. I do play well _here_.

If you can not show this jig, because of some non-disclosure agreement... which some members of this forum (who hold patents or test for) are familiar with and understand, you could at least try to give a description of what it does and how within that disclosure. I'm sure they had that much in their online catalog when it was up. 

On making a video? LOL. Besides not having any kind of video camera, I'm thinking that would be very boring. You cut your rail or stile to the shape you want. Cut the panel to the same shape, plus the tooling depth, plus your expansion. Put a stile bit it your table. Take off the fence. Put in a guide post (it you think you need the extra support). Route the rails. Route the stiles. Change to a panel bit. Route the panel edges. Put the fence back on. Change to a rail bit. Route the rail ends. I use a guide to keep the rail square.

Not much difference to standard rail and stile, except that you have curves, like an arched panel. With an arch panel, I pull the fence, because you're not longer working linear. Beyond arch, its still the same. It's just another curve. The bearing on the bit follows/supports the work whether it's flat or curved. The 3 areas to watch are to keep the work down on the table. Infeed steady. Outfeed steady. The one place where it fizzles is where there is a miter kind of corner (sharp) and the bit will follow is as round, to the radius of the bit. A hand chisel and you can dress that up.


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## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

PorterCable690 said:


> Bashed?
> 
> Somebody educate me if my understanding was off-base. I thought this was a "town square" where fellow woodworkers could congregate to share, discuss, debate, and otherwise, chew the fat about our, in my case, weekend passion. An altenative to physically hanging out at Rockler.


Hi Keith. It's also WAY cheaper than hanging out at Rockler!:sarcastic:


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## 603Country (Dec 1, 2010)

I read the whole thread, and it's interesting. I've made raised panel doors with the table saw (my own jig) and with the table mounted router bit set. Adding up all the pluses and minuses of doing it either way, and I've decided that the table mounted router is easier and probably a bit safer, though either way is safe if done properly.


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## Take a chance (Sep 7, 2012)

Secret what secret? I've been to 3 demonstration shows at KencraftCompany and Electrictool which by the way sells his products. I'm not into raised panels but for me the 35.00 I paid for the base has been well worth it's weight in gold. My experience with woodjam products and John has been phenomenal. Panzer! It's obvious to me you know nothing about woodjam products other than what you have or heard about. All these people have asked the same question in one form or another. WHERE CAN THEY GET MORE INFORMATION ON THIS PRODUCT? It's real simple and I told them! Was that so hard??????? Duane! I think it was very tactless of you to send an email to someone you obviously don't know and he is nice enough to reply. Then you post what he wrote and "for what it's worth, I guess" Not very tactful in my eyes! A guy with so much talent and a dream of helping others gets BASHED from people that he doesn't even know! Pretty sad in my eyes! How about yours?


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

is this it ?
"Route door frames "
How about a snapshot of the one you have ????
The one on the web page is very hard to see..

Router Master Router Pad

==


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## Alan M (Mar 29, 2010)

i would love to see this magical jig. 
i cant find anything about it either. 
i find it very strainge that there is no info on it and someone posting about it wont say anymore than they have it and its great. 
SHOW US


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## Take a chance (Sep 7, 2012)

You're kidding! Right? You're just messing with me because I'M NEW! Right? If not, call Electric Tool in Maumee Ohio Toll free 888-497-9953.
Secret, Magical, Strange!? I don't get it or do I! YOU GUYS ARE JUST MESSING WITH ME! RIGHT? That's OK I have a sense of humor!


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Take a chance said:


> Secret what secret? I've been to 3 demonstration shows at KencraftCompany and Electrictool which by the way sells his products. I'm not into raised panels but for me the 35.00 I paid for the base has been well worth it's weight in gold. My experience with woodjam products and John has been phenomenal. Panzer! It's obvious to me you know nothing about woodjam products other than what you have or heard about. All these people have asked the same question in one form or another. WHERE CAN THEY GET MORE INFORMATION ON THIS PRODUCT? It's real simple and I told them! Was that so hard??????? Duane! I think it was very tactless of you to send an email to someone you obviously don't know and he is nice enough to reply. Then you post what he wrote and "for what it's worth, I guess" Not very tactful in my eyes! A guy with so much talent and a dream of helping others gets BASHED from people that he doesn't even know! Pretty sad in my eyes! How about yours?


So Tim-

I thought we asked nice and had honest curiosity in that jig. 

You have their jig, right? Is it a free-hand router jig, router table or other? John couldn't answer that nor could he allude to what it basically did. Maybe you you enlighten us on that. If your description could fill in the blanks and we saw that we couldn't live without it, then some us might actually want to buy it. (With you so far?) But the other John, the creator, owner of the companay that makes the jig, says that's not possible to new customers... How would we get our foot in the door? Duanne asked nicely as a perspective new customer and was shutdown. He meant no malice. He just told it like it happened and left any judgement to others.

As you should understand if you reread those posts, we were not bashing, just asking questions that weren't being answered, mistaken for their honest intent, but maybe our frustration might have been bleeding through in doing that (not the intent)... as yours might have also if in the same position.

Now you mention a new company: "Kencraft Company and Electrictool" that resells this jig. Great! Thank you very much. We now have an avenue open to investigate and learn more (our original intent). 

Whereas before is was- *"Here is this great jig, that I can't tell you about or what it does, and is not available to you..."* <-- That just sounds so odd in so many ways doesn't it? Now, thanks to you, it's not that way again. I hold no malice or anything else against John. I just feel he took things the wrong way and couldn't express himself well.

Don't take it personal or the wrong way (Didn't I say this before all this started?) as it is so easy to do just that by trying to read too much from between the lines. I'm just here to learn and share my experiences with others here. We can all disagree about things. That sometimes makes it entertaining here. But we can agree to disagree and be fine with that. Next moment be all fine with a different subject. That's what makes these guys/girls great.


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

bobj3 said:


> is this it ?
> "Route door frames "
> How about a snapshot of the one you have ????
> The one on the web page is very hard to see..
> ...


Bob-

??? I found that. But is that what I think it is? That looks like a non-slip pad, like you put on your dash to hold coffee cups and cell phones. Says to hold small pieces. That couldn't be it, right? That's really not a jig.

But I don't really see any jigs on that site either... at least not in Tools and Accessories.


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## Take a chance (Sep 7, 2012)

Dear Mike and the rest of this forum, I only own the base as pictured on Electric tools web site. However, I have seen the stile and rail jig and no I would not say it's free hand routing. I should have stayed a lurker!
I left a message on John's voice mail and I will get to the bottom of this one way or the other! Tim


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## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

Take a chance said:


> Secret what secret? I've been to 3 demonstration shows at KencraftCompany and Electrictool which by the way sells his products. I'm not into raised panels but for me the 35.00 I paid for the base has been well worth it's weight in gold. My experience with woodjam products and John has been phenomenal. Panzer! It's obvious to me you know nothing about woodjam products other than what you have or heard about. All these people have asked the same question in one form or another. WHERE CAN THEY GET MORE INFORMATION ON THIS PRODUCT? It's real simple and I told them! Was that so hard??????? Duane! I think it was very tactless of you to send an email to someone you obviously don't know and he is nice enough to reply. Then you post what he wrote and "for what it's worth, I guess" Not very tactful in my eyes! A guy with so much talent and a dream of helping others gets BASHED from people that he doesn't even know! Pretty sad in my eyes! How about yours?


I think you missed the whole point... we(Mike and I) were interested in,
but unable to obtain ANY info on his jigs. From him, or anyone else. I assume you Have NOT read the email I sent. It merely asked for information and I was informed they were not accepting new customers at this time. He did not refer to any resellers, or offer any info other than what I posted. He did say he would keep my email address. So if this situation changes, I would expect to hear from him. But as of now... that is the way it stands!

If that is tactless, yes I am guilty! Your comments without sufficient info could be considered rude as well, but I will assume they are just uninformed. 

Thank you,
Duane

PS By the way John posted his email address and that was the only method of contact I found. If he did not wanted it used for business info, he should not have posted it. I do suspect my using it upset you, Tim, way more than it did him. I sincerely appreciate his prompt response!


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## Take a chance (Sep 7, 2012)

Mike, Duane, and Bob, during the last two days I had the opportunity to spend a few hours with John. However, before I get into that, I don't understand why, you Bob, would link Kencraft's router pad/mat and not Electric Tool's site where the base I have is on the home page when 99.9% of people would check both sites before posting anything. Strange isn't it? And you Mike, why would you comment and make a coffee joke and not check both sites either. Strange isn't it? I also found it strange that neither one of you knew what a router mat/pad was and it was obvious not a jig or base. Strange isn't it? Duane, why would you say you couldn't find any information on woodjam products. When I went to the same site as you and found some of the same information that was on woodjam's web site including his phone number. Strange isn't it? As for your email, you received nothing more then a form letter that works. Woodjam products has been in the wholesale market since the closing of their web site. After reviewing previous posts on this and other forums and spending time with John, in my opinion, I'm starting to believe there are some businesses or companies that don't want to see these products on the market. John has stated to me, that these products were never designed to take the place of any other products, only to broaden their horizon and make them easier and safer. In my opinion, could these products take the place of some? By all means. Could John go head to head against anyone and their router table for raised panels or other tasks and be victorious? By all means. Could John go head to head with a number of other products and be victorious? By all means. Was I impressed? By all means. Was it hard for me to get a hold of John and get information? No, not at all. A few clicks of my mouse and one phone call is all it took. I hope this post helps clear up any questions and concerns. If not, try the stated web sites or call John. Tim


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Tim

I could Not find a picture of the jig/fixture I looked at the Electric Tool's site and came with zero, about about a link to it or a picture of it...or a picture of yours,you can post pictures right off the bat..

I know you can't post links yet but just drop the URL call in the address call and just post that..

i.e. see below
routerforums.com/jigs-fixtures/37096-raised-panels-router-vs-table-saw-2.html#post300413
===



Take a chance said:


> Mike, Duane, and Bob, during the last two days I had the opportunity to spend a few hours with John. However, before I get into that, I don't understand why, you Bob, would link Kencraft's router pad/mat and not Electric Tool's site where the base I have is on the home page when 99.9% of people would check both sites before posting anything. Strange isn't it? And you Mike, why would you comment and make a coffee joke and not check both sites either. Strange isn't it? I also found it strange that neither one of you knew what a router mat/pad was and it was obvious not a jig or base. Strange isn't it? Duane, why would you say you couldn't find any information on woodjam products. When I went to the same site as you and found some of the same information that was on woodjam's web site including his phone number. Strange isn't it? As for your email, you received nothing more then a form letter that works. Woodjam products has been in the wholesale market since the closing of their web site. After reviewing previous posts on this and other forums and spending time with John, in my opinion, I'm starting to believe there are some businesses or companies that don't want to see these products on the market. John has stated to me, that these products were never designed to take the place of any other products, only to broaden their horizon and make them easier and safer. In my opinion, could these products take the place of some? By all means. Could John go head to head against anyone and their router table for raised panels or other tasks and be victorious? By all means. Could John go head to head with a number of other products and be victorious? By all means. Was I impressed? By all means. Was it hard for me to get a hold of John and get information? No, not at all. A few clicks of my mouse and one phone call is all it took. I hope this post helps clear up any questions and concerns. If not, try the stated web sites or call John. Tim


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

*That's it. Read to last line.*



Take a chance said:


> And you Mike, why would you comment and make a coffee joke and not check both sites either. Strange isn't it? I also found it strange that neither one of you knew what a router mat/pad was and it was obvious not a jig or base. Strange isn't it?
> 
> Could John go head to head against anyone and their router table for raised panels or other tasks and be victorious? By all means. Could John go head to head with a number of other products and be victorious? By all means.
> Tim


Okay Tim. Gloves are off now.

Do you know me? No. I did not make a coffee joke.* I said that was not a jig.* Pictured- albiet out of focus, looked like a rolled up non-slip pad. A Pad of the same chemical makeup and pattern that they use to grip coffee cups in an auto... Place mats... Tool chest drawers. Actually never thought of using it to keep work from slipping, but there you go...

I said myself that I honestly was interested in learning about this jig and possibly buying it. I find your repeated misunderstanding of my intent on that insulting. I have a lot of patience, but you have found the end of mine.

I presently don't think it's worth my trouble to learn more about that jig. An apology from the vendor himself would not result in me buying it for myself, my company, nor me recommending it to employess, fellow contractors and colleagues, friends, other people around the world.

On your challenge, bring it on. I welcome a good competition here and there. I am usually modest about my accomplishments and soft spoken. Well screw that now, you've opened the door. I've learned a few things. I'm still open to learn more. If you can't open your mind to really listen to what these guys are saying and not keep a sense of humor or trying to take things too personal when they aren't, then your own induced stress is going to shorten your life of your own accord.

Back to your challenge? After 40 years, mostly working in trades, working up to working as a Master Carpenter for a number of years... I have learned a few things. I still don't think I know it all and I do keep trying to find ways to do things easier, faster and more accurate. That is just the craft. Because of just being _exposed_ and having to do it... I just have skills that came with that, for instance working in a Cabinet Shop. Yes, I can break down sheets on a TS, freehand without a rip fence. Not something I brag about or really think about, but others think that's neat. 

Challenge? Bring it on. I know over 25 ways to make different panels on 5 different tools... just off the top of my head. My tool of choice for that is usually a shaper. My second choice is router table. The Radial Arm Saw. Then Table Saw. Then free-hand router. Last choice by hand tools.

By hand? Yes. I have done shakers and raised panels by hand. My mentor "made" me. Not pleasant. I would never make a profit at that. But I know how. And yes, I hate hand profile planes.

Against John... For the competition. Win or lose doesn't really matter to me. That would just be competition. On my work, it matters to me and my customers.

Other members here are also professionals, mixed in with others that have had woodworking as a hobby for most their life. (Some of us are not young. Ouch) Some of those pros also have their own cabinet shops. I really wouldn't purposely want you to embarrass yourself by coming out of left field like you did with that last post, thinking that this is somehow some kind of conspiracy against you or John... It is not. Yes, your voicing that in the way you did and to the people you did- did _embarrass_ you.

I do say this, your repeated misunderstanding has made this "entertaining" and not necessarily in a good way. But for the first part of me writing this... yes, you did piss me off. Now I just feel sorry for you.


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

I think it is time for everyone to step back and catch their breath.

First off this thread is about using a table saw jig or a router table to make raised panels, correct? My two cents on that is I have used a table saw to make raised panels but only by making angle cuts. I have seen the various jigs for making cove cuts with a table saw and to be honest they are not in my comfort range. If others are comfortable using them fine. I am most comfortable using a router table which will do more profiles anyways.

On the forums we promote all types of woodworking and all manufacturers products(as long as they work) and I would be happy to speak with this "John" about his jigs. From what I have read in this thread members are interested in learning about them but have no way of looking at them. This seems like a reasonable request to me. Here is an easy solution: Please ask John to contact me via my email here: [email protected]
John and Tim: You are welcome to email me links to the jigs for sale and I am happy to post them for you. I am sorry for the 10 post restriction against linking to web sites but as you look through the forums you will not see spam. The restriction stops many spammers and believe me when I say the Moderation Team is kept busy blocking them and deleting their posts... I caught three yesterday.

The forums are about sharing information and the member respect policy is simple. "Nuff said."


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Ok, I just checked out this site: Electric Tool and Equipment, Inc :: Home and looked at the jig in question. In the same way use of this jig with a panel raising bit was shot down on our sister site Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum it gets a big thumbs down here too. Let me be very clear on this: one person in California has died from using a panel raising bit freehand. Every manufacturer of router bits plainly states they are for use table mounted ONLY. Since the floating panel can easily be duplicated using a template and guide bushing with a table mounted bit there is no need to kill yourself. Natural selection has a way of thinning the gene pool.


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## Take a chance (Sep 7, 2012)

Mike, please accept my sincere apology! And that goes for the rest of the forum too! I did not realize you and other forum members thought this was a hand held or free hand routing, it is not! It is nothing like festool's youtube video. Making a cabinet door with the Festool OF 2200. I would say it's hand controlled and it's like using my jig saw. This jig was demonstrated at Ohio State University this past June and got nothing but positive reactions. I may be going out on a limb here but because of the safety built into this base, I would say John could do this blindfolded. Mike #2, thank you and I will pass this information on to John. I have a few more questions myself. I'm not understanding something here. Demostrations and no videos. What the hell! I will get to the bottom of this. Tim


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Darn. Did I mention that I am also voluntarily on the Server Team for the worlds largest Linux distribution?

//----- Public Records - LKA -----//
Woodjam Products 
Attn: John Marsh
Maumee, OH, USA 43537

Phone- 419.356.9462
[email protected]

Before anyone says anything or freaks out... it's a business and a matter of public record. I would never publish someone's personal data, unless approved.


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## panzer (Dec 22, 2010)

Wow, a company like Festool actually showing freehand routing with a panel bit. They must not have read those instructions either. That's like saying you can use a blade on a table saw but not on a circular saw or better yet you can take a circular saw and turn it upside down in a table opening and use it just like a table saw but you can't call it a table saw. Yeah right! That's exactly what were all talking about here. Once a tool has had jigs or modifications made to it. That tool is not the same anymore! Do you understand now, you are not comparing apples to apples! We all make jigs and fixtures all the time to change how we can use our tools and we all try to make them safer. That's exactly what John has done in his modifications, made the tools safer for you and me. I have a friend that is a safety officer and he cannot find any information from OSHA or any other site for me on this person being killed by a router with a panel bit in California. I would really like to get more information on this please.


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Rick Rosendahl of the Router Workshop told me about the death. I sent Rick an Email asking him to weigh in on this discussion. I will be calling John Marsh tomorrow for clarification on his products.


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

I checked with another expert and found out the death is an exageration. The woodworker was severely injured and lived to regret his foolish actions. My apologies to the forums; I make every effort to provide acurate information and in this case I failed.


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Before looking at the photo's at the end of this post, please read the EULA disclaimer...
----------------------
*Common sense and caution are factors which cannot be built into any power tool or power tool accessory. 
These factors must be supplied by the operator. If you do not possess common sense, please stop here.

For professional use only – Not for consumer use. We changed our minds- It's for not for Anyone's use... understanding that any use of this product in any form may result in death or dismemberment... Or at least lead to major frustration.

Do not use with explosives. It was tested for use with explosives, but it failed those tests miserably.* 
----------------------
Panzer, didn't you start this same 2 years ago, about the same time John Marsh started his internet venture? You had said the same things on another site, where you started out as- hello, I'm new to woodworking, I have no experience, but I made these raised panels with this jig from this website/company. Members there were interested to hear more. No answers from you. Came up again with other usernames- 4 members were permanently banned. Then 2 years later you are here- Hi, I'm new to woodworking, no experience and I made these things with this jig from the website/company... Odd. No matter to me at all now.

More odd, is John Marsh does not refer to that product as a jig. He says
<<Our goal at woodjam products is to provide you with the best and safest hand held router jigs and fixtures>> He says he makes 2 jigs-- a Tapered Fluting Jig and a Jointing Jig... And refers to that product you are talking about as, in his own words a year ago:
<< Pattern accessory 

This accessory allows you along with your safety base to match your panel to your stiles and rails perfectly no matter what size or shape you choose. >>

Which is comprised as the safety router base that Tim has... and a patterning router sub-base plate. If that's what you are refering to as a jig? Still no matter to me anymore.

So back to my EULA (End User License Agreement) disclaimer... Pictures are below. If you don't know what it is (TS Cove Fence for Raised Panels), then refer to the disclaimer above. Bob won't like it, because is has to do with Coves. There may be a discussion where people may pull there hair out, leading to sudden hair loss... or not. Some may experience heart burn or irritable bowel syndrome. Please consult your doctor before viewing the photos below. If you experience the impulse to create saw dust for longer than 4 hours... Good on you!


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Just got off the phone with John Marsh of Woodjam Products. Great guy. Honestly concerned about safety. He refers to the product as a jig, but agrees with me that it is a pattern following router sub-base.

I explained what has been going on here ... We talked about a lot of things at great lengths. I'll leave it at that, to not let the cat out of the bag. Anyways, I'll suspend any inquiries for the moment on that...

Mike- will send a PM.


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## Harrison67 (May 30, 2012)

Interesting thread, indeed.:sarcastic:


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## BobandRick (Aug 4, 2004)

Mike the death was not an exaggeration...It happened in Seattle and I got the information from the Doc. that had to try and save him. He was using a large profile bit with a 1/4" shank...The Doctor was extremely upset and had to explain that buying over-sized router bits with 1/4" shanks was a very dangerous option.

As a teacher friend of mine that always used the phrase "Common sense is not always so common" and you need to explain the need to be safe at every turn. Remember the router runs at approx. 22,000 RPM's so be safe and don't use large profile bits free hand.


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Ok, I feel much better now. This was just a bit of confusion about the location. Pat Warner told me about two cases in California that resulted in terrible injuries and resulted in a lawsuit against Porter Cable. The main thing I am interested in is keeping members safe!


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## Alan M (Mar 29, 2010)

so is there any info on the 'jig'in question. is it the next big thing


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Funny you should ask Alan. Next Tuesday John Marsh will be in my shop with his products. We are going to do a little hands on work with the items mentioned and I will post photo's in this section of the forums. Let me be the first to welcome our newest member: Woodjam Products.


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## Alan M (Mar 29, 2010)

thats great to hear. /hopefully we will get to see some of these great products we heard abou


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## Watersports (Jun 5, 2010)

Thank you very much and I'm looking forward to meeting you Mike. Hang in there Alan and everyone else, between Mike and I you will.


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Woodjam Products said:


> Thank you very much and I'm looking forward to meeting you Mike. Hang in there Alan and everyone else, between Mike and I you will.


John-

And it was a joy talking with you last night. Happy to have you here. Hope to hear a lot more from you.


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## Take a chance (Sep 7, 2012)

Wonderful news guys, Can't wait to to read what you think Mike!


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

John stopped by for the hands on session and the sawdust started flying. A bit of back ground about the jig in question is needed. John decided to build a safer way to work with a router after a shop accident. The goal was to provide an easy way to use a router that would prevent contact with the bit.(A very good idea) Along the way a special needs woodworker requested that the new jig design be made to work with one hand; this is something that could benefit a great many people. Another goal was that the jig be very affordable so everyone would be able to take advantage of it. Keeping in mind that there is no one size fits all solution I can report that this jig will assist many people by making routing safer and easier.

The basic jig is a replacement sub base for a D handled router.(It will work with other routers) Why the D handle model? For safe and easy one handed operation; the trigger switch is on the handle. The model John uses has a built in speed controller/soft start feature... this adds to the control of the router. The work table is MDF with no finish on it. Now lets walk through the steps of using this jig.

Remove the sub base plate from your router and attach the jig. Install your bearing guided router bit and adjust the height. Support your work piece on Bench Cookies. Adjust the support leg so the router is level with the work. The shape of the jig and support leg makes for excellent stability. The router will not tip. If the jig should slide off the work piece the bit will not contact the work table. The D handle gives excellent push/pull control. If the bit should grab the material the work is pushed away from the operator. Now we are ready to pull the trigger.

Start at the far end of your work piece and make a very light climb cut by pulling the router towards you. Continue with a slow controlled sawing motion back and forth removing about 1/8" of material per pass until your cut is complete. Because you are removing such a small amount of material per pass there is virtually no tear out possible. This also helps the bit stay cooler which means it stays sharp longer. Power down the router and rotate your work piece. Repeat the process until you have finished your cuts. John is confident enough in this design that he uses large panel raising bits with very good results. Keep in mind that this is not recommended by any bit manufacturer, do this at your own risk. With typical edge profile bits like a roundover or Roman Ogee the jig works very well adding safety and stability to your work.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Mike

Thanks for taking the time to check out the jig as you know I love jigs but this is one I will pass on ( big bits ( 3 1/2" ) in a hand router is not my cup of tea) at 10,000 rpm's..

===

€€


Mike said:


> John stopped by for the hands on session and the sawdust started flying. A bit of back ground about the jig in question is needed. John decided to build a safer way to work with a router after a shop accident. The goal was to provide an easy way to use a router that would prevent contact with the bit.(A very good idea) Along the way a special needs woodworker requested that the new jig design be made to work with one hand; this is something that could benefit a great many people. Another goal was that the jig be very affordable so everyone would be able to take advantage of it. Keeping in mind that there is no one size fits all solution I can report that this jig will assist many people by making routing safer and easier.
> 
> The basic jig is a replacement sub base for a D handled router.(It will work with other routers) Why the D handle model? For safe and easy one handed operation; the trigger switch is on the handle. The model John uses has a built in speed controller/soft start feature... this adds to the control of the router. The work table is MDF with no finish on it. Now lets walk through the steps of using this jig.
> 
> ...


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

BJ, this is exactly why I included the last two sentences: "Keep in mind that this is not recommended by any bit manufacturer, do this at your own risk. With typical edge profile bits like a roundover or Roman Ogee the jig works very well adding safety and stability to your work."

For people working on a small work surface this jig will perform well with 1-1/2" diameter edging bit's. For people with a larger work surface a ski jig makes more sense since it can also work above the material. At the same time a ski jig is not as easy to control with one hand. Different jigs for different situations is the best answer I can come up with on this.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Mike

I have use a 1 1/2" round over and a OG profile in the hand router with no jig needed it's all built into the bit..with the bearing on the bit...


http://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/smarthtml/pages/OnPoint_Router_Plate.html
===


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## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

Mike said:


> BJ, this is exactly why I included the last two sentences: "Keep in mind that this is not recommended by any bit manufacturer, do this at your own risk. With typical edge profile bits like a roundover or Roman Ogee the jig works very well adding safety and stability to your work."
> 
> For people working on a small work surface this jig will perform well with 1-1/2" diameter edging bit's. For people with a larger work surface a ski jig makes more sense since it can also work above the material. At the same time a ski jig is not as easy to control with one hand. Different jigs for different situations is the best answer I can come up with on this.


So, basically, you could do the same thing with a router ski setup. Except it would still require 2 hands!


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

BJ, I agree with you no jig is required for many people. This jig does prevent tipping which is something most people will experience at some point in time. If a router with a bearing guided bit slips off the material it will take off like a rocket ship across the bench. That can't happen with this jig because the bit will not contact the bench.

Duane, this jig requires less work space to use than a ski jig. This jig is designed for edge work.

I am not suggesting everyone run out and buy this jig. I am just sharing my thoughts on the principle of the jig. For someone with use of only one arm this could be of great value. This is not a universal must have item but I think it will serve some members very well.


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## panzer (Dec 22, 2010)

Bj, No disrespect, but, I feel your opinion is solely based on the raised panel bit and not on the benefits of this base and its attachments and jigs in itself as a welcomed asset to any router for safety usability.


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

panzer said:


> Bj, No disrespect, but, I feel your opinion is solely based on the raised panel bit and not on the benefits of this base and its attachments and jigs in itself as a welcomed asset to any router for safety usability.


John-
Everyone has a right to their own opinions. Even you and Bob. I respect that. Experience tells me that telling someone:
*"My way is the only right way and all other's are wrong"* 
is what wars are fought over. Learning temperance and diplomacy should be a goal. If not, you just might miss out on gaining experience and some true friends.

Just a thought to ponder.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi John

Sorry I didn't want to put on the edge but I just call them like I see them I have made many jigs and I have many panel bits some as small as 2 " OD and I would not use them in a hand router it's just not safe in my eyes,not to say anything about all the router dust you would put into the air in the shop,, the maker of panel bits always say use them in a router table ONLY they must know more than I so that's the rule I go by..

I use a off set base and D-base and that looks like the same as yours,no need to reinvent the wheel.. 

"It's fine to disagree with other members as long as you respect their opinions" and I do.. 
== 



panzer said:


> Bj, No disrespect, but, I feel your opinion is solely based on the raised panel bit and not on the benefits of this base and its attachments and jigs in itself as a welcomed asset to any router for safety usability.


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

There is a wide range of skill levels present on the forums. As we learn about different methods we choose the ones that make the most sense to us. We work on different projects that interest us and learn about others efforts. One good example of this is BJ designed a very safe and effective push stick. I choose not to use it and follow a different path. It's all good... knowing how others perform tasks helps us solve problems on future projects. The important thing is the sharing of ideas and accepting others will not always agree with you. I for one enjoy learning about new jigs and their potential uses. I wont use them all but they may spark an idea that makes my tasks easier.


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## Watersports (Jun 5, 2010)

Good afternoon everyone,

Hold on guys, don't get all wrapped up in who's right or wrong. Whether anyone like Bob has ever tried my methods or not before does not matter. This forum is for the trading of ideas and information to possibly help others. 

I joined this forum at the request of Mike to answer your questions. As you can see it is not "vapor ware" and you're going to be pleasantly surprised in the near future. Even though some of you do not agree with our products, it gives us the information to improve them. We have a lot of products that can improve your skills and keep you safe with all types of tools and equipment including but not limited to router tables, table saws and routers. (Saw stop is great but not perfect as with so many products)

I've had several conversations with Mike since Tuesday and we are planing more demonstrations and possibly with your woodworking guilds. I have explained to Mike that several products are just now coming out of the testing process. (some attach to this base and others are for you router tables) And yes we do have a great dust collection system that not only attaches to this base but also to your router table. 

Any questions or concerns feel free to ask.

John


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## Aesop55 (Mar 2, 2014)

*curved raised panel with coping jig*



PorterCable690 said:


> The table saw is quite an amazing tool and made even more amazing with engaged imagination.
> 
> So here ya go: Make your raised panels as previously described above using the table saw for the straight cuts, then... go at it again on the table saw this time at an angle with a coping jig. Viola'.... curved raised panels! Crazy stuff...


That is some good imagination. Is that one pass and is there much sanding afterwards.


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