# Chamar Scribe / skirting profile scribes.



## andy112285 (Oct 18, 2010)

Saw this video about the Chamar scribe on youtube www . youtube .com/watch?v=tHULvWsoyGs) and have been looking for the product or something similar. Thought maybe someone on here could help.

Thanks

Andy


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Hi Andy

The Chamar was made by a guy in the UK who produced a trial batch of 50 or so a couple of years back. It wasn't a big seller, possibly because British tradesmen seem to think that any bew technology is just a passing fad for kids and DIYers (although I am a British tradesman and I don't think that way). I was actually talking to the inventor a couple or three weeks back and he told me that a new version is due out early next year. It will be, he assures me, even better whilst costing less. As soon as I know about the product's release I'll post here, with a review if I can.

In the meantime the only product I have come across which is similar is The Coper. The Coper seems to work only with bits of diameter 1/4in which will mean that there will still be some clean-up of corners required on mouldings like a torus bead skirting (baseboard). As with all these tools there is a set-up penalty which makes it easier to pull out a coping saw or better still a jigsaw with the Collins Coping Foot and a Bosch T244D blade to do the scribe manually. I use the Collins Coping Foot myself and with the right blades (T244Ds) it's really fast and it's surprisingly easy to produce even large scribes, like you need on cornice (crown) mouldings. If I were putting in new softwood or MDF skirting boards in a new-build (i.e. accurate-ish structure with level floors and plumb-ish walls) and had to do 6 or 7 rooms then I'd consider a jig for the router. For a single room or very complex or finely detailed hardwood mouldings I'd stick with the Collins and my trusty chop saw.

Regards

Phil


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## Alan M (Mar 29, 2010)

hi there. any new info on this tool. im really interested in one,. 
i cant find anything on this, is there a website or email i can contact the inventer through. 

thanks alan


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Alan M said:


> hi there. any new info on this tool. im really interested in one,.
> i cant find anything on this, is there a website or email i can contact the inventer through.


Hi Alan

For the benifit of our US hosts I should explain that the Chamar Skirting Jig was designed to cut and scribe inside corner joints on whatyou guys refer to as baseboard

The original Chamar was far from a success. I believe that only one batch was manufactured, about five years back(?), and that in the end the single retailer who had them remaindered his stock to shift them. From talking to a former trade owner of a Chamar as far as I know there were several issues - firstly the very thin spiral bits used had a propensity to snap very easily (at £15 to £20 a pop, too), more so if used on hardwood skirtings - the cutter still left inside corners to be cleaned up - there was no provision to accommodate back scribing, absolutely necessary if the wall joints are at more than 90° (in my own experience about half the cuts I do). The jig cost £250+ which sort of limited it to the trade market. The problem is that the trade guys who this product is aimed at are normally proficient in cutting scribes with either a coping saw or (in some cases) with a jig saw, appropiate blade (T244D) and a Collins Coping Foot - all available in the UK from Toolovation. A big plus of the Collins Foot is that it can also be used to scribe inside corners of large cornice mouldings (cove moldings) as well.

All in all the underlying idea behind the Chamar was good, but the price and execution weren't. As I stated in my previous post I actually talked with the inventer about 2 years ago and he said at the time that he was working on a new version to be introduced "soon". To date it hasn't materialised.

Perhaps you should consider learning how to scribe skirtings - it isn't difficult although it does take some practise to become proficient, like many woodworking skillls

Regards

Phil


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Chop a 45 and cope-saw on the exposed profile. Perfect scribe.


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## Alan M (Mar 29, 2010)

thanks phil
im in ireland
its probably a bit ecpensive unless you were doing it alll day everyday. 
i am reasonable good at coping with the coping saw (and a dremel for fine tuning) but its a bit slow. 
i too have never found a true 90 degree internal corner. even when i build the walls myself and squared everything. the plasterers build up too much skim in the corner are ruin the hole lot. a back bevel is a must
i looked at the collins foot before but it wouldnt fit my hitachi jigsaw . i bought a festool trion lately so i will give that a go. iv heard a lot of good things about the collins coping foot. its a bit hard to get used to but great when you do. 
i was looking at this jig because i have to do the skirting in an office building soon and this would speed up the process. 
the other link you posted ( the coper) looks good but its 150 pounds (or dollars ) and its only plastic, i dont like the idea of using resin for the template as it takes 24hours to set. not good if you get suprised with a diferent profile. the chamber version used a profile gauge for the template , that is great as you can change it easily but you would need a profile gauge with a lot of layers(or what ever those pieces are called) to accuratly follow the shape


i am building a router jig at the moment to see if the principle would work. i mounted some worktop at a slight angle to a piece under it . i made a template and screwed it in between. it worked but the template will need to be metal as the hdf i used got deformed by the bearing. 
i will post a pic if it works.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Sorry; should have included a visual...
Coping Molding The Fast & Easy Way & Installing it DIY - YouTube


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Hi Alan



Alan M said:


> i looked at the collins foot before but it wouldnt fit my hitachi jigsaw . i bought a festool trion lately so i will give that a go. iv heard a lot of good things about the collins coping foot. its a bit hard to get used to but great when you do.


I use mine on an old body grip Metabo because it won't fit my Bosch (GST135BCE - the one with the additional blade guides like Festools - the Collins foot will fit MOST Bosches). I think you'll have the same issue with your Prion



Alan M said:


> the other link you posted ( the coper) looks good but its 150 pounds (or dollars ) and its only plastic, i dont like the idea of using resin for the template as it takes 24hours to set. not good if you get suprised with a diferent profile.


Yes, that's true, but is does accomodate the need for a back bevel. I don't see why one of those jigs couldn't be home-made, although I think you'd be pushed to get a long enough bearing trimmer much smaller than 5mm diameter - that makes handling "busy" profiles a bit of a faff. The resin issue can be overcome by going to a fast-setting resin. This side of the pond you'd need to find a eresin supplier in any case vecause to ship it from North America every time you ran out would cost a mint



Alan M said:


> the chamber version used a profile gauge for the template , that is great as you can change it easily but you would need a profile gauge with a lot of layers(or what ever those pieces are called) to accuratly follow the shape


They were steel fingers, a bit like the fingers in a Maco template guide, about 1mm thick, so a bit coarse for some purposes (e.g. Grecian ogees)



Alan M said:


> i will post a pic if it works.


I look forward to seeing that! Good luck with your experiments

Regards

Phil


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## Alan M (Mar 29, 2010)

i think there is a special collins foot for the trion. or else you have to cut a small piece off of each side for the guides. 
i dont think these jigs would work on complex profiles. 
most skirting i use is a fairly cradual contuir. my first trials worked fairly good but the template needs to be made more accuratly and in a harder material. 
i will post a pic tomorrow hopefullly


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## Rossi7x (Nov 25, 2012)

Alan M said:


> hi there. any new info on this tool. im really interested in one,.
> i cant find anything on this, is there a website or email i can contact the inventer through.
> 
> thanks alan


Hi Alan...

New to this forum, and only just seen this thread...

The 'Chamar' Scribe is not dead and buried, and there is a little bit of conflicting information on it within some of the replies in this forum..

The Inventor and patent holder 'Colin" set up the business as a 'cottage' industry, and then went to a few major shows in the UK... From there, a massive corporation arrived at the door, and pretty much guarantee'd that they would take it (exclusively) manufacture it, and pay a royalty per unit..
Anyway, that Company was embroiled in a 'merger' and all sorts of cuts were made (esp R&D) and then after the merger, the first of the 'Double dips' in the recession came..
In the meantime, the whole of the 'Cottage Industry' was sold off to make way for the corporation to come along, but when they did a massive u-turn, manufacture was gone.

Anyway, the 'Chamar' is about to enter a New Chapter, with a new product Name, a sleeker design, and a few refinements..

Also, despite material cost going up over the years, it looks like retail price is going to stay around the £199 price tag (retail ex vat.)

As for the cutters breaking... to my knowledge, there have never been any incidents of any breakages.. so much so, that the original cutter will be staying the same.. and I have cut 1,000's of meters od skirtings with it..

How do I know this..?? Because I was asked (as a professional tradesman) to evaluate the Charmer on behalf of this large corporation..

My evaluation brought about some initial design changes (small) to make it easier for the end user to set up...

It is true that the manufacturing and stock levels led to the demise of the Charmer, but this was for reasons as above..

There are a couple of other versions sitting in the wings too, with the possibility of the company being able to make bespoke sizes (maybe for 12" skirting) to order (at a cost implication)...

I am not only still a professional tradesman, but also a 'shareholder' in the ongoing venture based upon the original Chamar.. (such is my confidence and appreciation in the product.) 

A handful of the latest incarnations of the jig are being prototyped as we speak, with a period of final testing, and then going on to test the water as far as order quantities are concerned..

If the latter stage is successful, then I would hopefully say a predicted launch of the New product to be April 2013...

It is true that some of the internal corners leave a small radius (2mm) but wether hardwood or softwood, they will 'pinch' up to produce a quality joint that is not attainable by conventional methods..

It can 'undercut' as the router is tipped by around 2 degrees on the baseplate, and the whole machine can cope with bowed of cupped skirtings.. It is also fantastic when you have to scribe 2 different shapes into one another..

I could prove existence via an online video, but cannot post the URL as I am restricted as a newbee...

Any questions, fire away...

Regards

Julian...


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Hi Julian and welcome



Rossi7x said:


> The 'Chamar' Scribe is not dead and buried, and there is a little bit of conflicting information on it within some of the replies in this forum..


No conflict at all. In so far as the tool trade was concerned the Chamar had ceased production, which your response concurs with. More than two years ago I was told of a new model which was "imminent". Since then, nada. Surely that is the definition of a dead product?



Rossi7x said:


> Anyway, the 'Chamar' is about to enter a New Chapter, with a new product Name, a sleeker design, and a few refinements..


One hopes that the ability to provide a few degrees of back scribing is one of them. I have over the years talked to several people who bought the original Chamar - with everyone I spoke to that was a serious issue.
Edit: your later comments would appear to deal with that:


Rossi7x said:


> It can 'undercut' as the router is tipped by around 2 degrees on the baseplate, and the whole machine can cope with bowed of cupped skirtings.


OK, that's probably _one_ of the major sticking points addressed. A few years ago I know a number of tradesmen who were dead set against the Chamar because of this rather obvious design flaw in the original tool. Of course the price was another one - £250.00 (including VAT) (or US $350 or so) is a lot of money to pay for a tool - it's going to take a heck of a lot of skirting (baseboard) to justify buying this "one trick pony". Not saying that I wouldn't, but I am stating what the biggest sticking point will be for many tradesmen



Rossi7x said:


> As for the cutters breaking... to my knowledge, there have never been any incidents of any breakages..


That came on a couple of different forums from people who had bought them and commented on their fragility. In any case the cutters also went off the market at the time of the disappearance of the tool, so there's probably nary a one left in use today



Rossi7x said:


> It is true that some of the internal corners leave a small radius (2mm) but wether hardwood or softwood, they will 'pinch' up to produce a quality joint that is not attainable by conventional methods..


I have to question that statement. The ability to produce a scribed (coped) joint is an essential skill for any woodworker worth his salt to have. Joiners or carpenters have of necessity been producing good scriibed joints for hundreds of years before this product came along.....



Rossi7x said:


> It is also fantastic when you have to scribe 2 different shapes into one another..


Now you g=have hit on one useful feature. There is a small snag, though. When you need to do this the profile you have to scribe to is often a piece of skirting (baseboard) which is firmly fixed to the wall and can't be removed. How do you address that?



Rossi7x said:


> I could prove existence via an online video, but cannot post the URL as I am restricted as a newbee...


Go ahead and post the URL but with the word "dot" instead of a dot and I, or someone else will oblige yoyu with a working link

Good luck getting it going. despite my comments I'd be interested in seeing the new jig in action and I'd even consider it as a working tool in the right circumstances.

For anyone who hasn't seen it, this is the video of the old Chamar

Regards

Phil


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## Rossi7x (Nov 25, 2012)

Hi Phil..

Thanks for the response. I am not sure how to multi quote, so please bear with me.. Also, posting on a forum (or e-mail) can be perceived in may ways, so I going to try and answer honestly and factually, and am in no way trying instigate a war of words...

My post on the Chamar was in response to Alan's request for any info, so I posted an honest response as to the 'roller coaster' ride over the past couple of years of the product..

The product, although not still available on Sale, is not dead and buried, as the company is still active under 'Companies House'.. I take it that my explanation in the previous post is satisfactory to quell any rumours of the company's demise..

The original Chamar Jigs were always able to provide a back cut for out of square walls, although I have seen guys using these jigs without observing the instructions and using them incorrectly (thus negating this key feature). They also have the ability to cope with 'out of plumb" walls too..

Most web 'reviews' of the product are normally based on the fact that tradesmen seem to get nervous of a product that seemingly 'de-skills' their trade, so they are more than willing to post up the 'Negatives'.

This jig, on the other hand, has been designed and manufactured by a tradesman who could see the opportunity for making this 'oldest of techniques' more efficient and financially rewarding.. 

The retail price of £250+ was never set by Chamar Ltd, and although off putting for many, this Jig was (and will not be in the future) designed for DIY'ers.. Keen DIY'ers can obviously use them, but trade professionals on a price are the key focus group. So although I agree in principal with your concerns over cost, I hope this explains why.. 

As for a 'one trick pony', you will find mist jigs fall under that banner. Ie. Worktop Jigs, Drainer Groove Jigs, Letterbox, Staircase etc etc.. However, although not it's primary feature, this jig will also be able to cut tenons, and lap joints... It is something (to be honest) that I wouldn't personally use it for, but never-the-less, it could be done.. It is also possible to use this jig on a 'One Measure, One Cut' basis. This is really simple to show, but really difficult to explain, so will leave this for a You-tube moment at a later date..

Cutters.. The original spiral cutters were, always have been, and are still currently available from Trend.. They are actually Industrial Milling cutters for the Window Industry, mainly used for milling 'Water Slots'.. It was decided not to make a 'bespoke' cutter for this Jig, as it was deemed better for end users to have a choice of outlets to purchase their cutters in case of replacement..
The main reason for cutter replacement is due to over use and the need for re-sharpening.. However, this cutter does come with a big 'NOTE' to reduce the speed to around 10,000 rpm from the 20,000 of an average 1/2 inch router.. 
I take it you don't actually own one of the original Chamars, so honestly, you will have to take my advice, that these cutters are pretty bullet proof and I have not broken a single one..

With the internal corners, you must also consider that because there is a back cut, the small radius in on the front face only, and because it is so minimal, it will pinch up. My Comment about 'Attainable by Conventional methods' is still something I stand by, although it should probably be covered by 'In the same time frame' as the speed of this machine has got to be seen to be appreciated.. 

Yet again, you'll have to take what I say as fact, but will gladly demonstrate this to you in person when the next incarnation is on the Table.. I take on board that this 'skill-set' has been around for hundreds of years, but so was the 'brace and bit' and let's face it, no-one considers that as part of their tool kit anymore.
This jig does has a massive time-saving factor, and also is one of the very few jigs that cannot be replicated/copied on site out of MDF or Ply...
Let's face it, you would not undertake doing a Mason's Mitre on a Kitchen Worktop without a Jig, and that is probably only used once (maybe twice) on a typical installation, whereas in the same vain the number of Internal skirting scribes in a house way surpasses the worktop scenario... The cost of a Trend Professional Worktop Jig is £138.00 to £267.00 (plus Vat too)

In my day to day life in the trade, I rely on my Trend Hinge and Lock jigs.. Although not for the DIY'er, and ultimately up for criticism from the 'Old Guard', there is no sentiment in Business, and I have to be supremely efficient just to compete, let alone be profitable on such projects..

Granted, your last comment is true. If you have no off cut to offer into the jig to make the profile shape, you are pretty much snookered. But, as you said, it is then for the tradesman to call upon his skills to make this one and only cut by hand. 

I don't know about you, but when I do roofs, I use a Paslode, a ready reckoner, and a calculator (for the sine's, cosine's and tangent's) and quite frankly would not relinquish any of them..

I thank you for highlighting all these areas, as it is probably asking (and answering) a lot of points on people's minds. I also hope, that when we are there with the next generation, we can arrange a meet and offer you a full demo to alleviate any concerns you might have or heard of.

I will find that URL for you too.

Regards

Julian..


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Thanks for taking the time to respond, Julian. Despite what I wrote I'm far from being a Luddite - like you I carry a lock jig, hinge jig, etc together with the plunge routers to make the most of them - and for my pains I get a lot of stick from the "Old Guard" (same goes for my use of laser levels, laser rangefinder and plunge saw..... until I use them for a while). Yes, on price work, I can see a place for a tool like this despite £200+VAT (or £250) being a pretty big ask, but the tool just hasn't been available to buy. I thonk I'd like to see one of these in the flesh before making my mind up

Regards 

Phil

PS When postformed tops started to appear the router jigs were a king's ransom to buy, so we did, indeed cut them by hand. What a pain that was!


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## Rossi7x (Nov 25, 2012)

In the next couple of weeks I should have one of these latest incarnation jigs up and running.. As and when they are, I will take a couple of shots alongside the original 'black' model that you may be familiar with..
When they are tested etc.. I will do a you-tube video, and post you up the URL for you to see..

Thanks for taking time to read my reply and being positive in return... 

Looking forward to sharing the video's with you as soon as we can..

Regards

Jules...


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## Rossi7x (Nov 25, 2012)

In the meantime Phil, try going to Tool Stop dot Co dot UK, and search for a review on 5 reasons to buy the Dewalt DWE 560K Circ saw... Look Carefully in the background of the film, and you will see 2 No. Chamars in the background.

This actual URL is this.. Just replace the spaces with dots...

www toolstop co uk/5-reasons-to-buy-the-dewalt-dwe560k-circular-saw-a1210


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## Rossi7x (Nov 25, 2012)

Hi Phil...

Sorry for the lack of response over this 'jig' thread... I am pleased to announce that we now have the latest version available to view on prototype should you want to... Because of the newer lighter, compact design, we've had to re-patent the unit both in Europe and the US. (hence no further information)..

We are just putting the final costs together, and will be ready to go to market in a couple of months (lead times for certain manufacturing/tooling processes)

I will be away working in the US for most of April, but will be glad to meet up with you and show you this design/product upon me return.

Regards

Julian...


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## billg71 (Mar 25, 2011)

DaninVan said:


> Chop a 45 and cope-saw on the exposed profile. Perfect scribe.


+1

My technique when I was running trim by the room was to cut base upside down(vertically), cut a 45 off the square end to length, flip the saw over for a 2-4 degree back cut and chop down the wide profile line to the shoulder. Break that piece off, set saw back to 90 and trim off the little flat on top. Cope the profile that's left. Maybe a minute all told in the operation. Toss it off to the nailer, rinse and repeat.

So with this thingie I have to cut to length, move the stock into a separate jig, clamp it down, pick up a router, fire it up and make the cut. Or vice-versa. And this is quicker and more efficient? :blink:

Sounds to me like another solution desperately seeking a problem and your hard-earned dollar.

Bill


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## Rossi7x (Nov 25, 2012)

billg71 said:


> +1
> 
> So with this thingie I have to cut to length, move the stock into a separate jig, clamp it down, pick up a router, fire it up and make the cut. Or vice-versa. And this is quicker and more efficient? :blink:
> 
> ...


Not Quite Bill... A bit difficult to totally explain in words. I will hopefully get a Video up on-line in the next couple of months to explain.

You can use it as a 'One Cut' system.. Measure your skirting/baseboard, line up your pencil mark to a line, and cut. 6-7 inch scribe in MDF in under 10 seconds..

I appreciate your concerns of 'another solution seeking a problem', but glad the inventor of the Motor Car didn't take the view-point of the few who thought it was a waste of time....

Imagine when there is a pretty awesome 1/4' Cordless Router in the market place, then this idea will offer a totally cordless system in the workplace..


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Rossi7x said:


> Imagine when there is a pretty awesome 1/4' Cordless Router in the market place, then this idea will offer a totally cordless system in the workplace..


Hi Julian

Apart from the mitre saw! Yes, I know that Makita offer cordless mitre saws - it's just that the batteries don't last anywhere near long enough. Ryobi did offer a cordless trimmer a while back - it coudn't pull the skin off a rice pudding - whilst the P-C cordless router (a 690 with a batter pack grafted on top) also had very limited battery life. A mate of mine bought a set for swinging doors (hinges only) but even he wasn't that impressed by the battery life

I would be interested to see a video of the new jig, or better still one of the actual jigs, to see if it really lives up to your description. Any idea on street price/availability, yet?

Regards

Phil


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## Rossi7x (Nov 25, 2012)

Not sure of the final costing yet Phil, as we are just making the final decisions about the cutter. Our research shows that most people would want a cutter supplied, and that obviously has a cost implication. We are also keen to have the unit marketed/sold as a completely 'Designed and Manufactured in the UK'.. 
Early thoughts look like £225 retail (with cutter which retails at £35 from Trend)

Availability looks about 3 months away, as we are awaiting some engineering/tooling processes to be finalised which are key components to the manufacturing of the unit..

Initial tests are showing something in the region of 8 - 15 seconds to do an internal scribe (once set up of course) 

I am in the US for most of April, but will get a video, or a meet with you when I return.

This new one weighs 6kg boxed, is smaller, lighter, and much improved on the older version. 

We are also just submitting the 'claims' for the US patents (at present) for a second jig that will be primarily US biased. 

When the Patent 'claims' are in process, I will be able to divulge further..

Thanks for the continued interest.. 

Regards

Jules....


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

What sort of dimensions has the new one, Jules?

Regards

Phil


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## Alan M (Mar 29, 2010)

this is great news. 

be sure to keep us informed


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## Rossi7x (Nov 25, 2012)

I am away for work for a few days this week, but when I am Home I will take some measurements of it, and try to upload a photo of the original 'Black' version, alongside the latest 'Red' version... Cheers for the interest guys...


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## Alan M (Mar 29, 2010)

any update yet


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## Alan M (Mar 29, 2010)

still no updates?


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## Rossi7x (Nov 25, 2012)

Right Guys... Thousand apologies for the very delayed response... I had my wings clipped with posting any further information (for a while) due to minor details whilst the company was applying/obtaining the US patent for this product..

It is, however, going into production and will be launched in the UK this October (official) and can bee seen demonstrated at a leading tool show..

There is a Facebook page up and running for this product under the Scribe-Master banner, so might be worth a look over there. I will post up a pic on here, and a weight/size comparison with the previous 'Chamar' product so that you can see how much more developed, engineered and streamlined this New unit has become..

I must add that the Scribe-Master product has been totally Designed, Engineered and will now be manufactured completely in the UK.. Something the the New Company is infinitely proud of..


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