# How to do Mortise and Tenon?



## JDługosz (Sep 10, 2007)

I've been musing on how to cut some mortise and tenon joints. There are certainly many ways to do it, but I'm concerned with the accuracy. I've got an idea on how to make a non-adjustable template/jig using the router table with the precision fence, and then use the hand-held router with that jig. 

But I suppose that most people use hand-eye-motor skill instead of metrology. How do you get a mortise in just the right spot? Or, just how perfectly does it need to fit? Do you expect there to be no gap that needs to be filled with glue, and expect the two pieces to have their faces flush with no scraping or sanding needed over the seam?

I saw a fixture in a book that held the router sideways and provided a sliding tray. It said to adjust the z-direction, raise or lower the fixture in the bench clamp! How can you get that at just the right height and be level?

—John


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi John

You are right, many,many ways to get the job done..

Here's just one more and this one will put the slot dead on,,, the stock can be 3/8" to 1 1/4" wide and slot will be dead on ever time...with a floating tenon the joint will line up ever time...and it's quick and easy...


see the links in the post 

http://www.routerforums.com/53377-post40.html


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

If you want a simple non critical method of jointing which is plenty strong enough for most projects and doesn't require any measuring, give a thought to biscuit jointing.


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## berry (Oct 17, 2005)

Those were great drawings and pics but I'm unclear on one point or maybe two things. Is there some sort of stop block you use, at the beginning/end of the cut, to control the length? This seems really difficult because when the router is 'twisted' to bring the bearings into contact with the side of the work piece, the base will be at a sharp angle relative to the work. 

Thanks in advance.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Berry

You can put on a stop block in place but the norm you don't need one because you can see the bit at the start and the end of the slot...

To add a stop block, just take some scrap stock and go across the two upright parts of the jig, small dry wall screws will do the job..then all you need is drop and slot from one stop block to the other...I would also add a stop block for the stock you want the slot in, so you can just slide it in place and lock it in place for all the parts you need to do..  slide in and lock in place with the wedges.






berry said:


> Those were great drawings and pics but I'm unclear on one point or maybe two things. Is there some sort of stop block you use, at the beginning/end of the cut, to control the length? This seems really difficult because when the router is 'twisted' to bring the bearings into contact with the side of the work piece, the base will be at a sharp angle relative to the work.
> 
> Thanks in advance.


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## Rolf Maxa (Feb 8, 2005)

Welcome to the forum John. There was an article in Fine Woodworking about one or two issues back that showed how to build a mortising jig. It made setup exact every time. I've attached a link to the video that shows how to use the jig. Hope this helps.
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesArticle.aspx?id=28696


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Rolf

I must be a bit slow ,,,what I see is a jig that will work with one size of stock, that's to say if you are using 3/4" thick stock for the rails you will need to rework the jig big time to put the slots in a leg lets say...a 2" wide one..not to say anything about most 3/4" stock is not always the same...all the time..

.But it's neat jig to put the slots in the ends... 
But if you use a only one clamp to hold the stock good chance it will slip when you put the down presser down to put the slot in...but I must be a bit slow on the up take of the jig..




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rmaxa said:


> Welcome to the forum John. There was an article in Fine Woodworking about one or two issues back that showed how to build a mortising jig. It made setup exact every time. I've attached a link to the video that shows how to use the jig. Hope this helps.
> http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesArticle.aspx?id=28696


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## Rolf Maxa (Feb 8, 2005)

I don't remember all the details, but it was my understanding that the jig works for more then just the ends. I was also under the impression that it was adjustable to different stock wides. I always try to ensure that all my lumber is planed to the same thickness, so I would assume if it's 3/4 it will all be 3/4. I do need to go back and re-read the article.


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

John, when we are setting up for a mortise cut we generally mark the wood and this can be easily seen with most methods of mortising. The Oak Park design uses a 7" square mounting plate with roller bearings on the corners for stability. Rockler recently introduced a sub base plate with screw in pins to accomplish the same job. It's far cheaper but lacks the stability of the 7" plate. There is no reason why you could not install pins in your routers sub base plate to do the same job. As far as fit is concerned, the pieces should fit together well but not need to be forced. Yes, you need to allow room for glue squeeze out. If the parts are too tight and different woods were used you might face wood splitting with temperature and humidity changes.
The "sideways" pivoting mount works well. As you pivot the mounting plate up the bit raises. Once you are at the desired height you lock it in place. I think this is what has you confused: the starting and ending points will vary depending on how thick the wood is and how high the mortise is from the table sliding tray. The higher you set your bit, the closer to the pivot pin you are.

A router bit will leave a half oval end in your mortise which usually is ample room for the glue squeeze out.


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## JDługosz (Sep 10, 2007)

bobj3 said:


> Here's just one more and this one will put the slot dead on,,, the stock can be 3/8" to 1 1/4" wide and slot will be dead on ever time...with a floating tenon the joint will line up ever time...and it's quick and easy...


I've seen the two-peg idea before, but using bearings is a nice improvement I've not seen. I guess to make it off-center you just position it in your holder with some shim stock. It also requires that you have a bit the correct diameter, but those details are usually arbitrary so that's not a big deal. 

How do you get stops to work with the base diagonal like that?


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi JDługosz

"How do you get stops to work with the base diagonal like that?"

See the YELLOW stop blocks in the drawing they can be used any where you need them.. 


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JDługosz said:


> I've seen the two-peg idea before, but using bearings is a nice improvement I've not seen. I guess to make it off-center you just position it in your holder with some shim stock. It also requires that you have a bit the correct diameter, but those details are usually arbitrary so that's not a big deal.
> 
> How do you get stops to work with the base diagonal like that?


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## woodchuck44 (Aug 25, 2007)

if you are in doubt of it being centered in leg stock cut tenon little oversized and sneak up on mortise I use a similar mortise jig bobj3 is talking about and really like it no problems being off centered


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## challagan (Feb 7, 2006)

Mike said:


> John, when we are setting up for a mortise cut we generally mark the wood and this can be easily seen with most methods of mortising. The Oak Park design uses a 7" square mounting plate with roller bearings on the corners for stability. Rockler recently introduced a sub base plate with screw in pins to accomplish the same job. It's far cheaper but lacks the stability of the 7" plate. There is no reason why you could not install pins in your routers sub base plate to do the same job. As far as fit is concerned, the pieces should fit together well but not need to be forced. Yes, you need to allow room for glue squeeze out. If the parts are too tight and different woods were used you might face wood splitting with temperature and humidity changes.
> The "sideways" pivoting mount works well. As you pivot the mounting plate up the bit raises. Once you are at the desired height you lock it in place. I think this is what has you confused: the starting and ending points will vary depending on how thick the wood is and how high the mortise is from the table sliding tray. The higher you set your bit, the closer to the pivot pin you are.
> 
> A router bit will leave a half oval end in your mortise which usually is ample room for the glue squeeze out.


I need to get a 7 inch base for this purpose. I like what I see when Bob and Rick use that method. If you did not want to put it dead center on your work piece couldn't you just add a 3/4 board or what ever on one side clamped or double sticky'd and then it would be offset? 

Corey


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## petersenj20 (Aug 6, 2006)

bobj3 said:


> what I see is a jig that will work with one size of stock


All I saw was the video, but the video said it is adjustable for wider stock by moving the back plate

The centering bearings and plate work well with long stock but what about when you are doing the end of a rail in a rail/ stile setup? Is it usable then or does it take a big setup to keep the router perched atop?

I like the idea of a loose tenon because it seems is much easier to get perfect. Except when cutting the rail end, where it "seems" a tenon would be easier to create.

I am currently working on a rail and stile cabinet door for glass with a profiled edge. My first attempt was TERRIBLE, but was to be expected. Do you recommend the tenon or loose tenon for this setup and how would I go about the mortise in the end of the rail?


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi petersenj20

I don't Recommend tenon or loose tenon for glass panel doors, because 1/2 of the joint is taken away by the glass..the norm.

I do Recommend R & S type doors,, you may want to get the video from sommerfeld tools, it's the best one(s) I have come across...they will show you from sq. one how to make glass panel door that will stand up to the opening and closing they all get...  he has may tricks that he will show you to make them come out just right the 1st. you make them...

http://www.sommerfeldtools.com/list.asp?d=118&p=1



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petersenj20 said:


> All I saw was the video, but the video said it is adjustable for wider stock by moving the back plate
> 
> The centering bearings and plate work well with long stock but what about when you are doing the end of a rail in a rail/ stile setup? Is it usable then or does it take a big setup to keep the router perched atop?
> 
> ...


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## petersenj20 (Aug 6, 2006)

That glass pane bit set is more than all my current router tools combined.
You got to pay to play I know. While it may not be as strong as the glass panel bit (It is a broken joint of the type I am repairing so nothing is forever especially with 2 kids) it will work and at the same time hone my budding routing skills. 

I found another way to do it with an open floating tenon joint that looks pretty simple with no intricate jigs or expensive bits. This is what I will try next time.

As always I appreciate yours and everyones input.

This brings up a question. I have looked at a lot of doors and all are standard. 

When you have doors that open horizontally wouldn't it make sense to have the rails run the full width instead ending between the stiles? Why wouldn't this be better? (Been meaning to ask for a while.)


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## Drugstore Cowboy (May 17, 2007)

petersenj20 said:


> That glass pane bit set is more than all my current router tools combined.
> You got to pay to play I know. While it may not be as strong as the glass panel bit (It is a broken joint of the type I am repairing so nothing is forever especially with 2 kids) it will work and at the same time hone my budding routing skills. . . .


:sold: You have already gotten some very good technical answers to your questions.
I just wanted to send some MAJOR KUDOS for your reasoning.

Fancy/expensive gadgets may (or may not) make a job easier or faster or reduce the learning curve. But they are _almost never_ as _essential_ as the people who market them want you to believe.
Otherwise no one would have been able to do the job before the gadget was invented. 

I APPLAUD your desire to develop your skills first - then your tool collection.
That is what craftsmanship is all about.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi petersenj20

I knew I should have said you don't need to use his bits ,you can use just about any matched set, you can get them for $25.oo or lower.

The key to get a strong joint is where the hinge will be placed, the hinge and the joint must hold the load of the full door,it comes down to how much glue you can get in the joint or to say the joint area..and the right angle of the joint comes into play also.

Many cabinet doors are made with a shaper that's because the cutters on shaper cut 1/2" deep unlike most router bits only go 3/8" to 7/16" deep the norm...the deeper the slot the stronger the joint.

http://cgi.ebay.com/2-pc-1-4-SH-Oge...3197544QQihZ003QQcategoryZ50386QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com/2pc-1-2-SH-Doub...2730477QQihZ003QQcategoryZ50386QQcmdZViewItem

http://stores.ebay.com/Super-Carbide-Tools

Just a note about Glass type cabinet doors,,, Once you have the door parts glued up use the rabbit bit to remove the inside lip for the glass,,,then sq. the corners out with a chisel or a corner tool like the one below...


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petersenj20 said:


> That glass pane bit set is more than all my current router tools combined.
> You got to pay to play I know. While it may not be as strong as the glass panel bit (It is a broken joint of the type I am repairing so nothing is forever especially with 2 kids) it will work and at the same time hone my budding routing skills.
> 
> I found another way to do it with an open floating tenon joint that looks pretty simple with no intricate jigs or expensive bits. This is what I will try next time.
> ...


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## Drugstore Cowboy (May 17, 2007)

petersenj20 said:


> . . .
> When you have doors that open horizontally wouldn't it make sense to have the rails run the full width instead ending between the stiles? Why wouldn't this be better? (Been meaning to ask for a while.)


Now THAT is a good trivia question-
I'm sure there are a variety of answers.
If it's another slow day -- I think I'll research it.

On the practical side -
I avoid that question altogether.
I usually join rails and stiles with either lap joints or full tenons.
That way *both* the rail and the stile go the full width/length of the door and you get maximum gluing surface.
I saw this on some antique cabinets once and it made sense.

Plus I liked that it was something I could do without any specialized tools - just a router or a saw. I cut any grooves or rabbets I needed for the panels as well as any shaping I wanted to do on the front before making the joint.
Or - I added it as molding afterward.

BJ -
Thanks for the link to the less expensive sets.
I have been thinking about buying some -- and at that price I can almost justify it.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Cowboy

You'er Welcome 

I have both types the CMT and the eBay ones, they both work very well and do a great job, the eBay ones are a bit harder to setup and use BUT they work ,,,and for the price they are hard to beat...and as you know you can drop tons of money into router bits and this is jiust one way around that...

I just got a email from Price Cutters and they also have them on sale but not a low as the eBay ones. 

Talking about the eBay ones, I just order a new set and I forgot I had one in my shop ,duh, the set was a dovetail bit set ...the price was so good I jumped on it again...that's what old guys do they forget things now and then..    but you can't have to many router bits   LOL it was only 54.oo bucks for a full set..of 16 pcs. I think they call that a CRS error.. 



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## Drugstore Cowboy (May 17, 2007)

bobj3 said:


> ...and as you know you can drop tons of money into router bits and this is jiust one way around that...


Yep -
And if I was in the business (as some of y'all are) of making doors on a daily or weekly basis --where time=money
I would probably be more inclined to think in terms of what gets the job done the quickest and/or investing in bits that hold up better under heavy use.
BUT -
I might make two or three sets of doors a year.
And when I start to make a set -
and I compare $50+ for a set of bits --
versus making the frames as illustrated below and then spending $5-$10 of a few feet of cove&bead molding --- knowing that the end result will be fine with my customer either way ---- I get cheap and lazy.

But doing it with the bit set is a skill I want to learn - just for the sake of learning it.


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## garycurtis (Sep 17, 2007)

I'm jumping in on this discussion a bit late, but there are plans and full procedures for an enhanced Mortising Jig in Bill Hylton's new edition of Woodworking with the Router.

My experience M&T is limited, but I've made them on a shaper, and mostly using my WoodRat machine with a router. I've heard also that owners of the Leigh FMT are quite happy with that device. But you are looking at a $400 purchase

You mention a preference for a shop made device. Since Hylton's book demonstrates the use of his a number of times (well documented with photos), you'd be on a solid footing to examine his design.

Gary Curtis


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## JDługosz (Sep 10, 2007)

bobj3 said:


> ,then sq. the corners out with a chisel or a corner tool like the one below...


I've always avoided getting a corner chisel, because I wonder how you could possibly sharpen one. Isn't the bevel on the inside of the corner?


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

JDługosz said:


> I've always avoided getting a corner chisel, because I wonder how you could possibly sharpen one. Isn't the bevel on the inside of the corner?


Sharpening a corner chisel with a diamond dresser is but a few minutes work, as shown.


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## petersenj20 (Aug 6, 2006)

Drugstore Cowboy said:


> I APPLAUD your desire to develop your skills first - then your tool collection. That is what craftsmanship is all about.


Thanks for the comments. I'm no craftsman though, just cheap.


bobj3 said:


> I just order a new set and I forgot I had one in my shop


I laughed out loud at this. Opposite ends of the spectrum.
I was nearly sold on a lapjoint like Cowboy said. I have decided to go ahead and try the open floating tenon first. If that fails will try the lapjoint or bridle joint.
I am also going to try to pare the profiled connection instead of mitering.


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## Drugstore Cowboy (May 17, 2007)

petersenj20 said:


> . . . I laughed out loud at this. Opposite ends of the spectrum...


And THAT is the secret to woodworking - if not life itself 

Despite the fact that human nature makes us think our personal favorite is the 'best' way to do something -
- and every magazine article wants us to think the latest thing out is the 'ultimate'.
There is ALWAYS more than one 'right' way to do something -
- ways that all give excellent results.
You read - you listen - you experiment -- then do what works for you .

Be sure and post some pictures when you get done.


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## Edward J Keefer (Jan 28, 2005)

*tendon making*

Fellow woodworkers:
Thsi question comes up quit often. There are two ways to make mortise and tendons...1. Use loosy tendons and the selve centering jig for mortises. or 2. build a horizotal table and follow the instructions at lumberjocks.com. I use the horizontal table.


http://lumberjocks.com/jocks/EagleLakeWoodworking/blog/1292


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