# Fingers too close to the whirly thing



## Daikusan (Apr 12, 2013)

You may have seen this. . . it is interesting.
Wonder how it tells fingers from wood? It looks like it takes 6-7 teeth before it stops which still could cause some serious damage. 

Not a bad idea. It looks like to me they use an explosive device the release the brake. 

MSN Entertainment -


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

Hi Steve, I believe the Saw Stop uses electronic technology to detect the difference.

A wet piece of timber will set it off.


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## BrianS (Nov 7, 2004)

Steve, I've seen it up close and personal.... a woodworking store in Detroit had a demo of it a couple of years ago. Amazing technology, and it DOES work, just like in the video clip. Expensive initial purchase, and expensive when it works... blade is toast, as is the mechanism that stops the blade. But, it's still cheaper than the alternative.....


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Seeing is believing... this works and does save fingers.


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## neville9999 (Jul 22, 2010)

Mike I think that anyone who wanted to use this should not be discouraged from doing that, Me I would never use anything like this, I doubt that it would save a finger anyway, at what point does it kick in? Does it kick in when your finger is say a CM away, every accident that I have ever seen happened very fast, there was no a slow build up where the hand was inched forward a bit more and then a bit more so that when it was just a cm away then the device could kick in, me I would never believe that this could 100% stop the saw blade from cutting off your finger when your finger is a cm away and moving in fast, this is a fake solution and there is no solution better than keeping your eyes open and your fingers away from any fast moving cutter and I personally would not want to ever think that, "Its OK Neville to get close to the saw as the saw stop will save me'. The proper solution is to operate the saw, or the router, or the angle grinder, or the lawn mower, or the chain saw, properly, how do you stop yourself from cutting your leg off with the chain saw? You do that by showing dangerous tools respect, and me I would never want anything between me and any tool, I plan to keep my eyes open and use good trade practice and I would say to anyone who thought that the saw was so dangerous that they needed this, to go out and buy a nice pocket knife and take up whittling. You know when cars were first invented then anyone who owned one had to pay a person to walk along in front of it ringing a bell and waving a flag, and that never did work in regard to stopping anyone from walking under it wheels, what worked was to educate people to keep there eyes open and every time that they do then they don't get run over. N


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## kywoodchopper (Jul 18, 2013)

Hi Steve, I have A SawStop and would not operate another saw. I had a small board kick back and the brake immediately stopped the blade. I thought the saw had malfunctioned. I unplugged the saw and was looking at the blade/brake (the blade immediately drops below the table top & the motor stops). Then I notice a small amount of blood (about 2 drops) on one of my fingers. It looked like I had scraped the skin with a fingernail. The blade and brake were shot. I contacted SawStop and they said if I sent them the brake they they could read the computer chip to see what happened & would send me a free brake. Best piece of equipment in my shop. I have never understood the argument for not getting a SawStop. If you are careful you want get hurt or that since you have a SawStop you will take more chances. I don't buy either argument. If I have seat belts in my truck I don't take any more chances with my driving than without seat belts. Even if I am the only vehicle on the road I wouldn't take a chance of driving without the seat belts. And if a person is concerned about the cost of the saw I tell them to contact the nearest emergency room and ask roughly what would be the cost if you came in with a couple fingers that were hacked off. Then compare that with the price of the saw. Malcolm / Kentucky USA


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Neville, the brake is triggered by contact with your skin and it is so fast that you will not realize you made contact until you see that the blade is stopped below the table.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

I have this visualization of a red zone around the blade of any saw. It is about 6-7 inches in diamater. I cannot bring myself to move my hands any closer than that, ever. I also use a Grriper for all cuts where I'm not using a sled. I understand the idea of the saw stop, but I often work with high moisture redwood for outdoor projects, and if you forget to turn off the Saw Stop cartridge, wham, there goes a blade and the cartridge. I do such projects all the time and I am certain I'd forget now and again. So I use great caution, eliminate all distractions, plan every aspect of a rip or cross cut before I even raise the blade above the table. I like the Saw Stop idea, but the model I can afford is not a cabinet saw while my Laguna Fusion is. I respect anyone's choice of gear, I just want to have the option to make a choice. If I had a commercial shop, I'd buy the more expensive SawStops just for the liability issue and the safety would be a bonus.


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## david_de (Jun 3, 2013)

It is a nice feature however pretty expensive. If I had to get one of those I would not have a saw as it would be more than I would be able to put into a hobby. Hiring someone else to cut your wood is always a safety option but it would not be much fun. Being electronic it could malfunction as easy as a guy that puts his hand into a blade. The only way you would know it did not work is after your fingers are gone.

If you do not think electronic things will fail, why unplug your saw or router before changing a blade or bit? Just my opinion based on my situation and experience, yours may be different.


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## beemor (Feb 29, 2012)

david_de said:


> It is a nice feature however pretty expensive. If I had to get one of those I would not have a saw as it would be more than I would be able to put into a hobby. Hiring someone else to cut your wood is always a safety option but it would not be much fun. Being electronic it could malfunction as easy as a guy that puts his hand into a blade. The only way you would know it did not work is after your fingers are gone.
> 
> If you do not think electronic things will fail, why unplug your saw or router before changing a blade or bit? Just my opinion based on my situation and experience, yours may be different.


My thinking exactly.


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

kywoodchopper said:


> Hi Steve, I have A SawStop and would not operate another saw. I had a small board kick back and the brake immediately stopped the blade. I thought the saw had malfunctioned. I unplugged the saw and was looking at the blade/brake (the blade immediately drops below the table top & the motor stops). Then I notice a small amount of blood (about 2 drops) on one of my fingers. It looked like I had scraped the skin with a fingernail. The blade and brake were shot. I contacted SawStop and they said if I sent them the brake they they could read the computer chip to see what happened & would send me a free brake. Best piece of equipment in my shop. I have never understood the argument for not getting a SawStop. If you are careful you want get hurt or that since you have a SawStop you will take more chances. I don't buy either argument. If I have seat belts in my truck I don't take any more chances with my driving than without seat belts. Even if I am the only vehicle on the road I wouldn't take a chance of driving without the seat belts. And if a person is concerned about the cost of the saw I tell them to contact the nearest emergency room and ask roughly what would be the cost if you came in with a couple fingers that were hacked off. Then compare that with the price of the saw. Malcolm / Kentucky USA



Malcome,
Did the Sawstop keep the kick back hurt you? Did the brake prevent the kick back?

I'm finding that I am more apt to get hurt by a kick back than getting my fingers into the blade. Of course a kick back normally is not as bas as losing a couple of fingers. In regard to kick backs, I have learned the hard way not to try to rip short pieces. On a ten inch saw I's say not to try rip anything shorter than 12" as you are asking for trouble especially if the workpiece is narrow. Just don't try it, I found out the hard way. 

I do think that eventually a Saw Stop will end up in my shop, hope I still ten fingers to use when the day comes to set it up. Wonder if Obama Care would cover the cost of one, they are into preventive medicine pretty heavy these days.

Jerry


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## kp91 (Sep 10, 2004)

My question on the technology is if it works only when the motor is powered, or as long as the blade is spinning. My uncle damaged 2 fingers (severed tendon) by a saw that was coasting down. It would be interesting to know if there is a protection for this type of injury.

This technology looks promising, but still a few years out to refit old saws.

Whirlwind Black Box Videos


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## neville9999 (Jul 22, 2010)

Mike I see this as being the same as being hit by a train, I have a cousin who was, he is an idiot who would regularly cross the tracks in a dangerous way and why? well he was just trying to avoid a few minutes of inconvenience, save himself a few minutes of time, cut 60 meters off his walk home, he would do this every day, jump the track and cross it in a dangerous manner and use a method that the no one should ever do and 'yes' he was hit by a 2000 ton train, and this impact did not hurt the train at all, the only thing that had to happen to the train is that it needed a wash, Richard was not killed but he is a vegetable, I can't decide myself if he is more like a cabbage or a pumpkin as his head injury was catastrophic and it would have been better for him to have died however the contact with the train was on his head and he did not die from that injury so as the rest of him is undamaged then he can look forward to a long life of being a turnip, I often wonder what does go on inside his new brain, of course he could have stayed off the damn track and not been hit by that train. For me to give a proper opinion about this then I would need to see the promotional material that is used to sell it, I would need to read about whatever it is that is the trigger that kicks the device into action, just now I cannot see what that trigger could be so that it could work when needed and not work when it should not kick in, I know myself how litigious the USA is so I hope that the company that sells it has good insurance because the first time that this device fails and the first time that some inexperienced person loses their fingers then it is all over. It is far better to tell any user of any dangerous tool to not get on the track or you will be hit by a train. In regard to the use of powerful and dangerous tools then there is no substitute for safe and sound procedures and anyone who thinks that they can use unsafe procedures and cross the track in a dangerous way! Sooner or later they will be hit by a train. Neville


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

kp91 said:


> My question on the technology is if it works only when the motor is powered, or as long as the blade is spinning. My uncle damaged 2 fingers (severed tendon) by a saw that was coasting down. It would be interesting to know if there is a protection for this type of injury.
> 
> This technology looks promising, but still a few years out to refit old saws.
> 
> Whirlwind Black Box Videos




Doug,
That's another issue that really needs to be stressed and learned about before getting hurt. It is potentially one of the most dangereous things in a woodworking shop. Good point to bring up Doug.

Jerry


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

Neville pretty much said what I would have. I wouldn't have a Saw Stop, just seems like it would lead to carelessness. I'll just keep on doing what I've been doing, being very careful.


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## denniswoody (Dec 11, 2011)

For those who are skeptical of Saw Stop technology I suggest you do some research on it's effectiveness. The saw has been out for quite a few years now and the technology is proven. There is no point debating whether it works. If it didn't the lawsuits would have already piled up and they haven't.


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## Garyk (Dec 29, 2011)

The amazing thing is this idea came from a "lawyer". The second amazing thing is when he approached the manufacturers to sell his idea they were not interested so he formed his own company. Now you know why they cost so much (he doesn't want some lawyer suing him) lol. The saw does work as advertized. The electronics "reads" the moisture content in the skin (or test hot dog) and the blade is stoped instantaneously by a super strong spring device. It jams the blade into a phenolic block. I managed to nick a finger while doing a cut "by the book" so even the safest procedure can still result in an accident. When I returned from the ER I tried to replicate the scenario ( with the saw unplugged, of course) and to this day can not tell you why it happened. Guess that is why they call them accidents.


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## Bricknhank (Dec 28, 2013)

It sure seems like great technology. I just wish that Saw Stop was made in the USA. If they can build the Delta Unisaw here I don't know why the owner of Saw Stop couldn't make his product here.


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## Big Steve (Feb 12, 2012)

neville9999 said:


> In regard to the use of powerful and dangerous tools then there is no substitute for safe and sound procedures and anyone who thinks that they can use unsafe procedures and cross the track in a dangerous way! Sooner or later they will be hit by a train. Neville


Neville, while if have not made m own decision, couldn't it be argued that the SawStop is another safe and sound procedure to be used along with sleds AND safety glasses AND push sticks/GRIPPERRR AND other safety measures? Not instead of any of them.


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## 64 ford (Apr 21, 2013)

Steve and others on this thread
Why don't they demonstrate the saw with a figure instead of a hot dog if it's so foolproof?
I don't believe anything will ever be invented that will surpass the human brain to prevent accidents. Most are a lapse of mental function some how. Yes, after 50 plus years in the trade I've had my share of " accidents" . When I think back I doubt that any of them weren't preventable if my brain had been engaged! 
To me the SawStop is just another high priced " gotta have" . There is no substitute for using your head and working safely. That said, I also realize that a person with many years experience can probably do a lot of things safely that are dangerous for a novice.
Dennis


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## kp91 (Sep 10, 2004)

Steve,

I think that's a valid point. There is a whole field on job safety dedicated to 'hierarchy of control' tro prevent people from harm in industry, and it has many layers of defense. I won't bore you with the details, but I'll put a link below. I used to push back against this a little when I was 'young and invincible' at work, now I have to use it to keep my guys safe.

Unfortunately, I have seen too many times in my career that a worker (usually VERY new or VERY experienced) will identify with one layer of protection, and assume it is sufficent for the job... that's where the problem lies in my opinion.

Accidents WILL happen, because we as imperfect humans will err in our procedures, or because our imperfect machines will fail at the worst possible time. Any additional layer of protection we can provide ourselves with is a good investment.

One of my favorite examples is how we operate automobiles. The addition of safety equipment in cars has had a positve and negative effect on vehicle safety. Seat belts and airbags save lives, yet give folks a greater feeling of invincibility in the car. ABS and traction control help inexperienced drivers avoid accidents in slippery conditions, but cause experienced drivers to push their limits. Rear backup cameras, lane change alerts, and self parking dumb down the driver by allowing him to get by without having to learn key driving skills. 

The same is true in woodworking. However, I would not speak against new safety devices if they added a real layer of protection at a reasonable inconvenience to the task. I have been bitten by a tool in the past, and it was due to a mental error on my part caused by a distraction. It was a humbling learning experience that I would have preferred not to have. If a technology like the 'whirlwind' above becomes available, I will probably retrofit my saw.

To quote a co-worker who lost a chunk of his finger, "all that safety stuff is pretty cheap compared to the cost my medical bills!" 

ISO 9001 Quality Systems Toolbox - Hierarchy of Controls


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## kp91 (Sep 10, 2004)

64 ford said:


> Steve and others on this thread
> Why don't they demonstrate the saw with a figure instead of a hot dog if it's so foolproof?


Sawstop in Time Warp on Vimeo

Check out the 3 minute mark for a finger in the SawStop


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## almost there (Apr 12, 2011)

saw the video from your link. I think maybe they should have tried using a hotdog or something else similar, but never a finger. As for me, I cannot afford a saw stop table saw. I use my trusty micro-jig grippers 2000 for when I make cuts that would cause potential damage to my body parts


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## Bricknhank (Dec 28, 2013)

I am told that good portion of Saw Stop sales are school shop classes (for those schools that still have shop classes) which to me seems to be the perfect application.


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## neville9999 (Jul 22, 2010)

Mike said:


> Neville, the brake is triggered by contact with your skin and it is so fast that you will not realize you made contact until you see that the blade is stopped below the table.


Mike as I said, I would never let my fingers be near the saw blade, saw safety requires good trade practices when using a saw, these good practices wash over in regard to the use of other dangerous tools, I had on Idiot customer that cut of his finger with a compressor belt, he said that it looked funny so he was trying to see what could be done about that, while it was running, I was happy that he did not have a saw table as he may have cut his arm off, there is no cure for stupidity, you cannot get hurt by any saw blade as long as you don't touch it, use a push stick, use saw fences, keep your work area clean, keep the saw blade sharp, use hearing protection, use eye protection, I will never lose my life crossing the road as I will not be stepping in front of a car while reading a newspaper and listening to my I Pod and texting on my phone as I walk blindly across the road. Anyone who thinks that they need this should not own a dangerous without doing a workshop course on saw/tool/machine safety. N


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

Bricknhank said:


> I am told that good portion of Saw Stop sales are school shop classes (for those schools that still have shop classes) which to me seems to be the perfect application.


Depends on the students. I'm thinking with today's students, the schools are going to pay out a lot of money because of students putting hot dogs thru them.

When I took shop, you had to be in the 10th grade, before you were allowed to use the table saw. Which would put me at 14 at the time. The teacher demonstrated kickback, told us how it occurs, how to avoid it, and to never do it. I never heard of any kickback incidents in that school. 

And, when he told us to keep our body parts away from the whirly parts, we listened. The man did not have the complete set of two thumbs and eight fingers. We definitely listened. After that little speech, we were allowed to use the table saw unsupervised. Again, I never heard of any table saw accidents in that school. Being as I'm 73 now, never had a kickback accident, or a table saw accident, I guess he got the point across quite well.


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

I must disagree with you on this Neville. People who do not know how to use a power tool could benefit from this tech. No, they should not be using the saw but if it can save their fingers that is a good thing. Accidents do happen. I had my foot slip one time and my push stick was mangled. Using that push stick saved my fingers and maybe hand. Now I use MicroJig products instead of simple push sticks. Improving safety is never a bad thing.


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## Barry747 (Jun 16, 2011)

As strange as this may sound, i believe you are all right. Sort of a "that's why they make chocolate and vanilla". We all use various types of safety devices around tools. In it's simplest form, some us will hold a small brad with our fingers when we hammer it into a board. I prefer needle nose pliers. I'm a klutz. If someone tells me they always use their fingers and would never think of using a pliers that doesn't make them wrong in my eyes. That works for them so they should keep on doing it. I'll still keep on using a pliers.

In terms of the saw stop, i can't afford one. If i could i'd probably buy one. Why? Well, I use the blade guard on my band saw. I use various types of pads and pushers on my jointer. I use feather boards and push sticks with my router. I always wear safety glasses, frequently wear a dust mask and, when needed, i wear hearing protection. Basically, I try to do things to keep myself safe since I know that, from time to time, I will do something that isn't safe either intentionally or accidentally. To me, the Sawstop is one more level of safety device. 

We each decide how many precautions we want to take when we work. To each there own. Should you get a Sawstop? It's up to you and there is no right or wrong answer to that question. Just my opinion.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

I'm with you, Barry! 
I had a thought this morning re the SawStop, however. The whole premise is based on moisture+salt ie. conductivity. If for any reason, the conductivity is interfered with...electronically or other wise, the user is unprotected but thinks he/she is.
Here's a scenario: user is hypoallergenic and puts an a pair of tight fitting nitrile gloves to rip some cedar lath, completely forgetting that they've just negated the SawStop functionality.
Sorry, but If I'm using my TS, I want to be in _total_ control; not trusting some technology to do what I should be doing for myself. 
As others have pointed out, unwittingly running a piece of damp-inside wood through the saw could also prove very costly. I use Red Cedar a lot, and more often than not it has a high moisture content, even if the surface is dry.


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## denniswoody (Dec 11, 2011)

DaninVan said:


> I'm with you, Barry!
> I had a thought this morning re the SawStop, however. The whole premise is based on moisture+salt ie. conductivity. If for any reason, the conductivity is interfered with...electronically or other wise, the user is unprotected but thinks he/she is.
> Here's a scenario: user is hypoallergenic and puts an a pair of tight fitting nitrile gloves to rip some cedar lath, completely forgetting that they've just negated the SawStop functionality.
> Sorry, but If I'm using my TS, I want to be in _total_ control; not trusting some technology to do what I should be doing for myself.
> As others have pointed out, unwittingly running a piece of damp-inside wood through the saw could also prove very costly. I use Red Cedar a lot, and more often than not it has a high moisture content, even if the surface is dry.


Pretty strange scenario and assumptions. Why would the user be more careless with gloves on? If for no other reason than the cost of a replacement blade one assumes the user will exercise normal safe sawing procedures. As for damp wood users report there is no problem with damp - it is wet that is a potential problem.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Dennis; you just proved my point re damp vs wet. Make an error in judging the internal moisture content and it'll cost you a blade and Sawstop components.
If the user is always doing everything safely, then why upgrade to SawStop?
A _lot_ of people have taken to wearing the skin tight nitrile gloves in the shop. I certainly do; just not around power tools!
Another thought occurred to me after watching that Vimeo video. You can't (technically?) use a dado set with it. So, once again, becoming overconfident can betray the user while doing an inherently dangerous operation.


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## denniswoody (Dec 11, 2011)

No point discussing this further Daninvan. You are convinced if someone invests in a safety device they will become less careful. Makes no sense to me but to each his own.


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

My experience has been that fortunately close calls have not caused me any serious injuries , but it has taught me "TO BE MUCH MORE CAREFUL THAN WHEN I FIRST STARTED TO WORK WITH WOODWORKING TOOLS".

Not all of us were fortunate enough to have taken woodworking in school and had a good instructor to teach us of the potential danger of the tools involved and how to prevent them. In my case, I learned by myself. For that matter, I am still learning as so many of us are. 

Being very conscience of potential danger and taking appropriate preventive measures is all that one can do. If a person is not willing to understand the potential danger and will not act accordingly, perhaps they need to take up needle point, whatever that us.

Some people should never handle guns, use power saws, or get involved in woodoworking as well as other potentially dangereous activities. 

Jerry


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

> Some people should never handle guns, use power saws, or get involved in woodoworking as well as other potentially dangereous activities


Totally agree, Jerry.


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## Marco (Feb 21, 2009)

I only read a few responses on the first page but I am sure the thread has evolved like all of the other Saw Stop threads in the past.

My Saw Stop experience is

1) It works and as of a couple of years ago the cost to replace the device after activated was roughly $70 plus a new blade. 

2) Is it worth the money? That is an individual response. For my low budget home shop the answer is NO! If I owned a business the answer would be YES!

3) Should it be law that every saw have a similar safety device?

Answer: God help us all if government sticks its ever multiplying, over controlling tentacles into another area it should have no more than a limited role in.

Example: Picture of a grown man riding a bicycle with a silly looking helmet on his head


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Amen, Jim! 
Some safety devices are cheap and reasonable; dead man switches on power lawnmowers for example. Or steel plates and toes in work-boots. 
_Not_ using others, like safety glasses and hearing protection, or dust masks, is really indefensible.


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## Bricknhank (Dec 28, 2013)

*safety devices*



Marco said:


> Example: Picture of a grown man riding a bicycle with a silly looking helmet on his head


Marco, I have demolished not one but two bicycle helmets. Once doing and endo going about 25mph+ on a large road ride, and another hitting an unexpected hole while mountain bike riding. I am reasonably certain at least on the road accident I would not be here or would have sustained a very serious head injury had I not been wearing the helmet. I also know a woman that was on her bicycle going about 5mph and her tennis racquet fell into the front spokes and she suffered a brain injury in which she will never function at normal capacity ever again. I believe in helmets on bikes as silly as they may look to some people. That being said I rode my bike all over town as a kid and we didn't have helmets nor would i probably have worn one if we did. I probably don't wear eye and hearing protection as often as I should in my shop either. The safety switch on my Triton router is kind of a PIA at times too but I have no plans to tamper with it. I have a friend that was a year away from retirement that was ripping some 2 x 4's on his table saw and made a wrong move and mangled his hand up so bad that he can barely use it. He wishes that he would have known about the SawStop technology. If SawStop made a reasonably priced retro kit for my PM66 I would most likely purchase it. Key word being reasonably priced I guess. 
Lastly, my kids are all grown up now but I can honestly say that they never rode in our car without being in the proper car seat or restraints. Fortunately, we were never in an accident (I am knocking on wood right now) but had we been, they would have stood a much better chance than my parents method of sticking their arm out when they had to stop fast. The child restraints were required by law however I would have used them anyway to keep my kids safe.


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## Barry747 (Jun 16, 2011)

As i said in my original response, to each his own. One thing i can understand, but don't practice myself, is to be more careless if i'm using a safety device. I have a healthy respect for every tool in my shop. I still have a scar on my thumb from a flat head screwdriver. Don't ask. Answer is dumb and in a hurry. Anyway, accidents happen whether you're careful or not so that's why I use whatever safety devices I can afford. None of them make me less careful.

Here's a somewhat extreme example. I have a basement shop and my area tends to lose power from time to time, usually during storms. Although i don't use any electrical equipment during a storm, what if i'm in my shop, using a power tool, and i lose power? Although the tool will power down, it's not instantaneous like the lights going out. Hopefully, i'll act intelligently, (my tells me there's always a first time) but the more safety devices i have in place the better the chance for a healthy outcome. Has it happened? No. Could it? Yes. 

So, I can understand how some people may have a false sense of security with safety devices in place. I don't. At the end of the day i really want to be able to count to 10 using all my fingers.


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## 64 ford (Apr 21, 2013)

Sorry Greg
Should of said finger not figure! Once again the brain was not engaged!
Dennis


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## Marco (Feb 21, 2009)

Bricknhank said:


> Marco, I have demolished not one but two bicycle helmets.


Hank I'm glad you were wearing a helmet during your accidents! 

For me I would rather risk getting a ticket and a knot on the head than wear a bicycle helmet as I ride around the suburban block. It is a lot more dangerous riding in congested cities, fast roads, and screaming down a mountain trail. I don't do them for obvious safety reasons but I still feel that the government forcing riders to wear bicycle helmets under all circumstances reaches beyond their welcome at least around my block.


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

I think the ability to own a SawStop is a good thing. Getting it shoved down your throat by a company trying to force legislation is not. Having seen the demonstration and knowing that some members have saved serious damage to their hands is reason enough for me to consider these units next time I shop for a saw. Built in safety features is not a bad thing as long as you are not acting carelessly because you have them.


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## Bricknhank (Dec 28, 2013)

Marco said:


> Hank I'm glad you were wearing a helmet during your accidents!
> 
> For me I would rather risk getting a ticket and a knot on the head than wear a bicycle helmet as I ride around the suburban block. It is a lot more dangerous riding in congested cities, fast roads, and screaming down a mountain trail. I don't do them for obvious safety reasons but I still feel that the government forcing riders to wear bicycle helmets under all circumstances reaches beyond their welcome at least around my block.


Thanks Marco, me too. Although helmets are required on some organized rides, I wear a helmet by choice not because of any laws or mandates. I do understand how people feel when they are told that they have to do something that they would choose to rather not do. I get it. I suppose seat belts laws fall into that area. Probably laws for under age smoking as well. I guess we could go on and on with similar examples but in the end, I am glad that the Saw Stop technology is there for those that opt for it.


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## Marco (Feb 21, 2009)

bricknhank said:


> thanks marco, me too. Although helmets are required on some organized rides, i wear a helmet by choice not because of any laws or mandates. I do understand how people feel when they are told that they have to do something that they would choose to rather not do. I get it. I suppose seat belts laws fall into that area. Probably laws for under age smoking as well. I guess we could go on and on with similar examples but in the end, i am glad that the saw stop technology is there for those that opt for it.



amen!!!


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Bricknhank said:


> ...Although helmets are required on some organized rides, I wear a helmet by choice not because of any laws or mandates. I do understand how people feel when they are told that they have to do something that they would choose to rather not do.


I started wearing a helmet while putting the first rides on young horses, outlaws and rouges... I've broken my share of helmets. You know, I really didn't think of or appreciate them until someone had suggested it to me and I was looking over the first one I broke. But it was my choice and I could see the merit.

As for saw safety... I feel I am safety conscious... I am a bit anal about safety, especially for people who worked for me. I but I don't own a Saw Stop. Is there other ways? Yes. Do they make a saw that I would own? Not at the moment. Are there other factors that sway my decision not to own one of their saws? Damn yes!!$%^&!!

I am one of those that do get upset when a someone says that their way is the only way and that anything different than that is _evil_... and then spend's thousand's of dollars campaigning to make their way the only way. (Yes, via legislation) 

For what end? In the name of safety? Or for their own pocket book? 

Funny that they don't mention that they were laughed out of the European Market, when they tried to show their wares to the European Trades. For larger than 10" blades, that technology didn't work. Aside of that, commercial saw's over there (my saw includes this) are required to have a blade brakes... so there is no freewheeling when the motor is shut off. If I don't have my arbor nut tight especially when using a grooving blade or 12" blade, the brake will pop the arbor nut loose. I have some of my blades pinned (arbor alignment holes), so that those heavier blades can stop effectively.

My saw will cut fingers off. At 4.5hp, there's no question about that. I do try to keep vigilant and aware. I do have a bit of training and do not try to think that safety equipment is a replacement for safe practices or being complacent. That would just be folly.

(Re: Saw Stop) It may be safe. It may work. It may be a technique. It is an extra cost that when the technology was demonstrated to the commercial industry, hasn't really hasn't panned out nor been openly excepted. They do get real pushy in there dealings and consort to scare tactics and half-truths. They do try to sway public and legislative support to their own end. 

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with their product, but it just won't work for me. It is not aligned with my conscience and their business practices are not attractive nor palatable to me.

Just my honest opinion-- If you think a piece of tech should substitute good practices for blatant disregard and stupidity... (look what I can do) Well then... (Cringe!!!) I'm just here shaking my head and thinking...


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

MAFoElffen said:


> I started wearing a helmet while putting the first rides on young horses, outlaws and rouges... I've broken my share of helmets. You know, I really didn't think of or appreciate them until someone had suggested it to me and I was looking over the first one I broke. But it was my choice and I could see the merit.
> 
> As for saw safety... I feel I am safety conscious... I am a bit anal about safety, especially for people who worked for me. I but I don't own a Saw Stop. Is there other ways? Yes. Do they make a saw that I would own? Not at the moment. Are there other factors that sway my decision not to own one of their saws? Damn yes!!$%^&!!
> 
> ...



Couldn't agree with you more Mike, but will admit that earlier in my woodworking learning curve I was of the opinion that I might buy a Saw Stop and that the concept was a good one. 

As time went by I realized more and more that accidents seem to occur when attempting something dumb to start with. The majority of the time normal procedures for using tools are used and when doing so, serious concentration, call it paying attention, is the only safety mechanism that can be counted on to work all of the time. No safety device will ever off set stupidity, maybe ingnorance is a more appropriate term to use here. After some "on the job learning" for now at least, is where I am with my thinking on the Saw Stop and other safety issues for now.

jerry


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Jerry Bowen said:


> As time went by I realized more and more that accidents seem to occur when attempting something dumb to start with. The majority of the time normal procedures for using tools are used and when doing so, serious concentration, call it paying attention, is the only safety mechanism that can be counted on to work all of the time. No safety device will ever off set stupidity, maybe ingnorance is a more appropriate term to use here. After some "on the job learning" for now at least, is where I am with my thinking on the Saw Stop and other safety issues for now.
> 
> jerry


You nailed it Jerry. For some reason (North American at least) we spend far too much time trying to "stupid proof" the tools and methods we use instead of spending more time trying to educate on how to work safely which includes the total concentration and safe work procedures you stated. No matter how hard we try, in the end there is no cure for stupid.


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

Lets go back in history.

The Saw Stop rose to prominence during a court case where a drunk was operating a small table saw without a splitter or fence and got injured.........Well, dah,,,,,

The inventor was called as an 'expert' witness to prove it was the fault of the saw and not the fault of the drunk. As the case was in USA, he was "proven" correct....

I don't drink and drive nor do I drink and play with power tools........

I wear a seat belt, there are many drunks on the road.....


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## Garyk (Dec 29, 2011)

I'm not going to get rid of my Delta to buy a Sawstop. But reading all of the yea's & nea's brought forth in this thread I look at the saw as similar to buying anything else. Would you buy a car now that did not have airbags and all or the other modern safety features required by current regulations. I think other saw makers are remiss by not developing their own devices to enhance our safety. As long as we, the customers, don't demand they enhance the safety of their devices it won't happen. Yes, electronics can fail but their failure rate compared to the failure rate of mechanical devices is miniscule. AS always it is up to the craftsman to follow all of the safety practices we are taught. Work smart and stay safe.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Last comment from me: To purchase a Saw Stop that would match the quality build of my present saw, I'd have to spend nearly 3 times what I paid for my hybrid. If I were required to buy a Saw Stop, I'd still be trying to get by with my old Delta contractor saw, which I could never tune just right. The Saw Stop's serious cabinet saw is out of reach for me. So I concentrate on proper safety procedures and pay very close attention, and plan every cut I make before turning on that "whirly thing." I agree with those who don't want this issue mandated.


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## 64 ford (Apr 21, 2013)

Mike
I agree with you 100 percent. Everyone can be responsible for their safety. Wasn't SawStop supposedly invented by a lawyer? How convenient! 
Tool brakes would probably help, my 14 inch 5 horse radial arm probably takes a full minute to wind down with a heavy carbide blade in it.
Btw-- isn't the idea to stay on top of the horse! LOL. 
Dennis


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

jw2170 said:


> Lets go back in history.
> 
> The Saw Stop rose to prominence during a court case where a drunk was operating a small table saw without a splitter or fence and got injured.........Well, dah,,,,,
> 
> ...





Mike said:


> I think the ability to own a SawStop is a good thing. Getting it shoved down your throat by a company trying to force legislation is not. Having seen the demonstration and knowing that some members have saved serious damage to their hands is reason enough for me to consider these units next time I shop for a saw. Built in safety features is not a bad thing as long as you are not acting carelessly because you have them.





64 ford said:


> Mike
> I agree with you 100 percent. Everyone can be responsible for their safety. Wasn't SawStop supposedly invented by a lawyer? How convenient!
> Tool brakes would probably help, my 14 inch 5 horse radial arm probably takes a full minute to wind down with a heavy carbide blade in it.
> Btw-- isn't the idea to stay on top of the horse! LOL.
> Dennis


I have similar memories. The inventor is obviously very bright and creative but IMHO somewhat "ethics challenged".
The price of the Sawstop saws put them out of reach of all but the best-heeled hobbyists (I fit the hobbyist part). Perhaps professionals with large, profitable businesses can afford them. Every comment about people needing to take responsibility for their own safety is spot on, but accidents do happen. I do not own a table saw and am not certain I ever want to own own because of the safety issues. Dennis, the inertia issue you raise certainly limits how big a blade certainly restricts the size of blade that can be used with Sawstop technology so safe practices are not out of date!


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