# MLCS Router Bits



## sreilly (May 22, 2018)

I'm curious about MCLS router bits. I have a set that I picked up back some time ago when I was in Huntingdon Valley, Pa doing some telescope work and was wondering about others experiences. These are carbide tipped bits but as I've come to find out there's a big difference in bit quality. The set I have is lightly used being only a few used so far and have for the most part been buying Whiteside individual bits as needed and a few Infinity bits that are somewhat unique and/or on sale. I read a few posts on Sommerfeld bits and visited their website which is quite dated I think. Seems their last catalog is a few years old, at least according to the website. I did email them and inquired where their bits were made and was advised in China. 

I bought the MCLS set because it was a bargain and I wanted 1/2" shank bits for the router table and my Bosch 1617EVS. That plus I was there and the discounted price seemed to good to pass up. I figured it would be a quick start until I figured just what I needed and I'm a bit impulsive. I also picked up a scratch and dent drill press table that at their price I couldn't have built for less. 

I also added to my tools a Bosch Colt router that takes 1/4" shank bits only so I need to determine what use that will serve. So far I'm thinking that will work fine for my Porter Cable Dovetail jig and trim work. So I imagine most everyone has their own preferences for bits and what they consider good value but I'd be interested in hearing about that. I own a few Freud bits, the above mentioned 66 piece MCLS set, and now about a dozen Whiteside bits not to mention about 5 Infinity bits. And I haven't used any enough to decide on which I like best. I do have a Lapped Miter bit and setup blocks coming from Infinity that seem to be taking forever to get here. I ordered them on 6/3 but it's like waiting on an IRS refund.....


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

MCLS... won't touch them... had one lose it's carbide and hit me in the ear.. the wasn't any fun and expensive too... reconstructive surgery wasn't any picnic either...
PC dovetail... re-gifted the one I got as a gift... it has since been re-gifted several times... real partial to my Leigh D4R...
Whiteside.. good stuff...
Freud.. my preference as I was a commercial operation... better bits w/ high mileage and most excellent CS... very good overall value...


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## Hypnotoad (Apr 17, 2018)

Stick486 said:


> MCLS... won't touch them... had one lose it's carbide and hit me in the ear.. the wasn't any fun and expensive too... reconstructive surgery wasn't any picnic either...


Reading reviews on MLCS bits on Amazon there is an alarming number of people reporting carbide came off, the bit broke in half, sheared off etc. Something drastically wrong with quality control.

I bought a Bosch set and although they are not the sharpest bits in town do the job, I used to use Carbitool an Australian made high quality bit but they cost a lot. I have been buying Huhao industrial grade and Arden professional grade from China, now before you say anything these are not your regular cheap Chinese rubbish. I have found them to be the sharpest, cleanest cutting bits I have owned and seem to last as long as Carbitool for a lot less money, I don't do that much routing so they will outlast me. The only caveat is you have to wait a couple of weeks to get them.

Of course you can't go wrong with Freud, Whiteside etc but if like me your not using them every day cost is a factor.


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## OBG65 (May 5, 2018)

I have one or two but don't use them much. My preferences are Whiteside, Amana, Infinity, CMT, and on occasion Freud. One of my favorites was PRC (Paso Robles Carbide/Ocemco) that the late Pat Warner liked. But they went out of business in 2009.


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## reuelt (Dec 29, 2008)

*How about Diablo?*

Diablo bits & saws are available in Bunnings Australia.
Is Diablo = Fleud or is inferior like "Marktec of Makita"


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Hypnotoad said:


> Reading reviews on MLCS bits on Amazon there is an alarming number of people reporting carbide came off, the bit broke in half, sheared off etc. Something drastically wrong with quality control.


chinese junk...
remember.. 
w/ the chinese made shid you are the QC department more often than not...


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

reuelt said:


> Diablo bits & saws are available in Bunnings Australia.
> Is Diablo = Fleud or is inferior like "Marktec of Makita"


if Diablo is made anywhere but Italy it's a knock off even counterfeit...
this applies to the bits also..

Here is a response provided by the top Freud tech guy a number of years ago.

All Freud blades come from the same machines in the same manufacturing plant. We make our own micrograin carbide in numerous formulations that represent various degrees of hardness. The carbide is selected depending on the intended application (the hardest is used for laminates the softest for ripping) as are the tooth angles and tooth quantity. The steel for the blade plates is all the same grade. The brazing is all the same. The key differences between the 3 main lines of Freud blades are:

The LU/LM Industrial blades have the thickest tips for the most resharpenings and are generally full kerf. We also offer the most selection of specialty blades in this line. These have the most appeal to professionals who need to get a lot of sharpenings out of a blade and to artisans who need specialty blades for their projects.

The TK and Diablo lines are very similar. Both are thin kerf blades and the tip thickness is the same. The key difference is in the way we market these blades. The Diablo line has blades intended for purposes like framing, siding, decking and general home improvement and is packaged and promoted in ways that appeal to contractors and DIYers. The TK line has blades for similar purposes (as well as laminate blades) but is sold with different or no coating and different packaging and POP material to appeal more to woodworkers.

Do professional woodworkers shop for blades at Home Depot? Probably some do and they can get excellent performance from a Diablo blade for a lot of their uses but with a shorter overall life (and lower cost) due to the tip thickness. Same with the TK blades at Lowe's.

Why not compare a TK or Diablo blade to Forrest? Consider this analogy: Toyota cars and Lexus cars share a lot of the same components and are made by the same company. Would you compare a Camry with a BMW?

We make a fourth line of blades (F400 Premier series) that is very similar to the WWII and is priced similarly. The difference between ours and Forrest's is that ours is made by computer controlled, super modern equipment and theirs is made by hand. Both methods have advantages and disadvantages but I leave the final verdict to the consumer.

Charles M
Freud, Inc.


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## Hypnotoad (Apr 17, 2018)

Stick486 said:


> chinese junk...
> remember..
> w/ the chinese made shid you are the QC department more often than not...


Yes, that's why I only buy quality Chinese bits, never had a problem with one and they perform far beyond my expectations. I only buy from official manufacturers stores and they have exemplary feed back. A lot of people don't realize that there are completely different levels of quality coming out of China, you can buy cheap bits for a few dollars or pay many times that for an Arden bit. Take golf clubs for example, TaylorMade one of, if not the best are made in China along with the other top names. You can of course get cheap rubbish clubs from China that even "look" like TaylorMade and some even have the TaylorMade markings but that's where the similarity ends.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Hypnotoad said:


> Yes, that's why I only buy quality Chinese bits,


that's an oxymoron if there was ever one...


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## Hypnotoad (Apr 17, 2018)

Stick486 said:


> that's an oxymoron of there was ever one...


Some people think all stuff coming out of China is rubbish, that's their prerogative, I will continue to enjoy saving money and having quality products. :smile:


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## hawkeye10 (Jul 28, 2015)

sreilly said:


> I'm curious about MCLS router bits. I have a set that I picked up back some time ago when I was in Huntingdon Valley, Pa doing some telescope work and was wondering about others experiences. These are carbide tipped bits but as I've come to find out there's a big difference in bit quality. The set I have is lightly used being only a few used so far and have for the most part been buying Whiteside individual bits as needed and a few Infinity bits that are somewhat unique and/or on sale. I read a few posts on Sommerfeld bits and visited their website which is quite dated I think. Seems their last catalog is a few years old, at least according to the website. I did email them and inquired where their bits were made and was advised in China.
> 
> I bought the MCLS set because it was a bargain and I wanted 1/2" shank bits for the router table and my Bosch 1617EVS. That plus I was there and the discounted price seemed to good to pass up. I figured it would be a quick start until I figured just what I needed and I'm a bit impulsive. I also picked up a scratch and dent drill press table that at their price I couldn't have built for less.
> 
> I also added to my tools a Bosch Colt router that takes 1/4" shank bits only so I need to determine what use that will serve. So far I'm thinking that will work fine for my Porter Cable Dovetail jig and trim work. So I imagine most everyone has their own preferences for bits and what they consider good value but I'd be interested in hearing about that. I own a few Freud bits, the above mentioned 66 piece MCLS set, and now about a dozen Whiteside bits not to mention about 5 Infinity bits. And I haven't used any enough to decide on which I like best. I do have a Lapped Miter bit and setup blocks coming from Infinity that seem to be taking forever to get here. I ordered them on 6/3 but it's like waiting on an IRS refund.....


Cost is always a concern unless your filthy rich, but the quality of cut for me is a bigger concern. I was using an MLCS bit on a project and posted a question about my problem concerning tearout. Stick here on this forum ask me if my bit was sharp and I said it was. He then ask me what brand and I told him MLCS. He said try Whiteside and I did and the problem was solved. I now only buy Whiteside or Freud bits unless they don't have a profile I need.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Hypnotoad said:


> Some people think all stuff coming out of China is rubbish, that's their prerogative, I will continue to enjoy saving money and having quality products. :smile:


okay...


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## pwabrahams (Sep 21, 2013)

The Chinese do seem to be quite good at high-speed trains and top-of-the-line supercomputers.


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## Hypnotoad (Apr 17, 2018)

pwabrahams said:


> The Chinese do seem to be quite good at high-speed trains and top-of-the-line supercomputers.


To Stick and others, I am not trying to offend anyone and I am the first to admit that a lot of what comes out of China is rubbish and not worth anything like the cheap prices they charge, my wife bought me a HD Dash Cam god bless her. It wasn't HD and most of what it recorded was a blur, luckily we got our money back and didn't need to even return it.

But on the other hand they do make good stuff as well, and I firmly believe they will transition like Japan did from having a reputation of making rubbish to a reputation of making quality goods, it may take a while, but in the interim bargains can be had if you know where to look and what to buy, I have to correct myself though on Arden they are actually made in Taiwan and have a stall at the upcoming (August 22-25, 2018) International Woodworking Fair in Atlanta Georgia if anyone is interested. No Affiliation.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Hypnotoad said:


> To Stick and others, I am not trying to offend anyone and I am the first to admit that a lot of what comes out of China is rubbish and not worth anything like the cheap prices they charge,


Not offended in the least...
I see things differently...

while in business I did spread sheets on what came into the shop...

I factored in a lot of things..

initial cost.. (tangible)
support cost.. (intangible)..
safety...
CS... did the product's manufacturer stand behind the item..
quality..
performance.. did it do it's job well..
longevity.. 
availability..

initial cost.. (tangible)
OTC/delivered into my hand...

support cost.. (intangible)..
cost/time to get it warrantied if need be...
a carry back to the seller or postage and the trip to the post office isn't free...
cost/time of related down time..
cost/time of damage repair..
cost/time of a connected call back...
cost/time of related down time and job set back...
cost/time of rework because of 

all of this relates in unit LF...
(unit cost *÷* LF)

I think Whiteside bits are better than equivalent Freud bits fresh out of the box..
but...
Freud stayed in production the longest..
Freud beat Whiteside in unit cost..
CMT bits are very good but fall short in support by a long ways...

every bit from China I found to have one or more issue(s)...

poor QC...
Balance... out of balance bits are rough on the router...
poor brazing.. you can ask my ear about that...
softer carbide.. short production life due to dulling...
fragile.. carbide chipping/breaking when hitting a dense knot..
two piece construction.. body to shank which under duress would separate...
same part number/same manufacturer/same profile... but one bit to the next won't/doesn't match..

*NOTE:*
Freud Quadracut bits are a force to behold/reckon w/...
there is a lot of knock offs and counterfeits coming out of china..
(there are a feww threads here on this...

.


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## Hypnotoad (Apr 17, 2018)

Stick486 said:


> *NOTE:*
> Freud Quadracut bits are a force to behold/reckon w/...


Shoot, I didn't pay that much for my router, let alone for one bit. :surprise:


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## reuelt (Dec 29, 2008)

Stick486 said:


> if Diablo is made anywhere but Italy it's a knock off even counterfeit...
> this applies to the bits also..
> 
> Here is a response provided by the top Freud tech guy a number of years ago.
> ...




Thanks for excellent info.

One statement corrections. 
Feud makes their bits and saws in Italy and Switzerland.
So your statement "if Diablo is made anywhere but Italy it's a knock off even counterfeit...
this applies to the bits also.."
should be 
"if Diablo is made anywhere but Italy and Switzerland it's a knock off even counterfeit...this applies to the bits also" ??


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

reuelt said:


> Thanks for excellent info.
> 
> One statement corrections.
> *Feud makes their bits and saws in Italy and Switzerland.*
> ...


yes, that additional information is correct... up to a point..
''other tooling'' in HW, HSS, cobalt/titanium, is/are made in Switzerland, ie; drills, bores, sizers, inserts, spurs, knives (for planers/shaper), jigs for sharpening same, Blanks for profiling, specialized CNC tooling, Chucks/pull studs/accessories for CNC's and multi-cut cutter/planer heads... even Maintenance tools for cutterhead sets....

so I guess Freud tooling and accessories are made in Switzerland... *SNORK!!!*
so, getting back Mr. McCracken's statement, carbide bits and saw blades are made in Italy.. ya know.. the stuff us non-commercial rank and file types use... which is the subject of this thread and w/ the hair splitting and semantics getting left out...

for those that want to know...
those bits that cut/drill the holes for European style hinges are called bores... (think specialized Fostner bits w/ replaceable inserts)...
and before I forget... Freud Fostner bits, more often than not, are made in Germany and Austria...


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Hypnotoad said:


> But on the other hand they do make good stuff as well,


point...
An Amana FJ bit made in Israel is a long lasting quality bit....
the same brand/bit/profile made in china doesn't last but hours and the china made profile doesn't match the Israeli made profile...
same price too... about 170$ at the time...
same thing w/ CMT bits too...
VOE... this is how I know the CS for these companies leave a lot to be desired...
*they cost me money and hurt my bottom line* and they may have upgraded their CS since but I'll leave that to somebody else to find out...


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## mgmine (Jan 16, 2012)

You said it all in one line "* And I haven't used any enough to decide on which I like best.*" I use a set of bits I got off of Ebay and have used them for over 20 years. When I need a specialty bit I go to MLCS and pay about half for one sells for at the other places and yes I'm still alive to talk about it. For a bit that I always use such as a cove bit I then buy a good quality brand but I do so only because in the long run it's cheaper than buying one from MLCS. A router bit is not like a saw or any other tool not even a saw blade. A router bit has no resale value and is an expendable item. For the most part the bits stay in their package and only get used occasionally if ever. I have never run across a bit that wasn't good for at least the first few times I used it, and I can't say how long the cheaper bits last because I have never worn one out. If I did I would take it back and ask for a new one. If the new one didn't work I would get my money back. A router is for occasional or for specialty work It's not a table saw or a planer or a jointer or a mortising machine or any other thing that people use it for. Yes you can use it for those things but you're just making your work harder. To sum it up buy MLCS bits and use the money you will save to buy a mortiser or whatever. Just MHO.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Only bit I have from MLCS is a down cut spiral, carbide, half inch. Carbide tip broke after a couple of uses. My bit sets are mostly Sommerfeld. Excellent. Many of my general use bits are Freud, which I really like. My 1/4 inch shank bits are all Freud. I have a few Rockler brand bits, which are good, but rarely used.


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## reuelt (Dec 29, 2008)

*Let's read Wood Magazine Router Bits test results*

Wood magazine tested many brands of Router bits in detail and 
here are the detailed results published in PDF by CMT because CMT came out #1 in the test.

http://www.cmtutensili.com/media/files/143_1305_woodmagazine_cmt_perfect10.pdf

BETTER than arguing with our own qualitative & STRONG OPINIONS.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

reuelt said:


> Wood magazine tested many brands of Router bits in detail and
> here are the detailed results published in PDF by CMT because CMT came out #1 in the test.
> 
> http://www.cmtutensili.com/media/files/143_1305_woodmagazine_cmt_perfect10.pdf
> ...


too bad CS/TS wasn't factored in to tell the rest story....
like I said... CMT produced good quality bits but their CS sucked...
that test doesn't factor in everything...
at one time all I used was CMT till I hit my limit of having to deal w/ them...
WTB they didn't test CMT's and Amana's off shore bits either which both outfits market as the same as their regular bits......


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## Hypnotoad (Apr 17, 2018)

mgmine said:


> A router bit has no resale value and is an expendable item. For the most part the bits stay in their package and only get used occasionally if ever. I have never run across a bit that wasn't good for at least the first few times I used it, and I can't say how long the cheaper bits last because I have never worn one out. If I did I would take it back and ask for a new one.


I agree and I think what we have in this thread is two trains of thought, one for the professional/heavy user and one for the DIY/light user and it seems never the twain shall meet. 

If I am making a coffee table for example and want a nice molding bit for the edges do I go out and buy an expensive bit that will last a lifetime, use it once and leave it in it's packet for the rest of my life. Or do I buy a cheaper costing bit that will do the same job. It would be like buying a Ferrari to do the weekly grocery shop, it would be nice if you have the money to throw around but completely unnecessary. So it's horses for courses, if your a heavy user or just like to buy the best no matter the cost then you can spend till your bank manager calls. Or if you are on a budget like me and only use something occasionally it makes no sense to spend up big on one bit.

One more thing to remember is location, here in Australia we don't enjoy the cheap prices of things like in the U.S. For example comparing the prices of equivalent size classical molding bit 1/2" shank with bearing:

CMT 841.880.11 = $79.00
Carbitool TC16 B 1/2 = $59.00
Huhao 6201 = $18.00


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## reuelt (Dec 29, 2008)

*Not right to push a brand or a country*

From FESTTOOL FORUM

"Freud router bits- constantly letting me down 
« on: March 24, 2012, 06:08 PM »

Really fed up with Freud bits and I am going to start using other brands. 

Strike 1. After the first pass with a panel raising bit, the carbide chipped. I was definitely not overtaxing the bit, so I exchanged it for a new one. Same thing happened again with the new bit so contacted Freud and they asked me to send it to them so they could check it out. They sent me a third bit which seems ok so far. 

Strike 2. Then I had a 1/8" bit break on me. OK, not a big issue, this is a fragile bit and can easily happen. 

Strike 3. Yesterday, I was routing some dadoes with a 1/4" bit and when I went to clean them up afterwards with a router plane, the 1/4" blade would not fit in the dado. When I measured the router bit it was 1/32" undersized. That's a lot. About 12% variance in fact. 

I went to the store to get a new bit and asked the sales assistant to measure them first. We checked two. Both were undersized by around 1/32" as well. Rubbish. 

I would be interested to know whether I am asking too much for my bits to be more accurately sized. These bits are not cheap and cost about $25 each. "

There are PEOPLE NOT satisfied with FEUD now owned by BOSCH.


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## sreilly (May 22, 2018)

Seems I've opened a can of, well not really sure.... Thing is and I really think is key, as Hypnotoad said, usage is key. While I do buy mostly Whiteside because they are American made and have performed well, the bits being made in China aren't all anywhere near the same as all being bad. Sommerfield and others are made there and although I haven't used any yet, in fact other than their website and here I've never heard of them before,they seem to be held in high esteem by some. But with companies having tight QC in the factories there is some great stuff made in China. Sort of reminds me of the old days and stuff from Japan. At one time it was all considered cheap junk and now they are a major competitor. I did have one bit break on me and it was my fault, a 1/4" straight cut bit with a 1/2" shank. I was cutting slots in 3/4" plywood and the tip broke off. MCLS did a quick replacement and pointed out my mistake, too much too fast. I slowed the cut down and took several more passes to complete and was fine. That one is on me. So far of the other bits I've used from the set they've been fine. Will they hold up to other brand, I guess I'll see. That being said I buy all my specialty bits from Whiteside and Infinity ( which may be made in the USA). Another important factor is how well the bits are kept/cleaned. It like my Forrest Woodworker blades, I've just noticed they are collecting gum and residue, in needing of a good cleaning.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

I think many good brands have Chinese origins, but with tight QC in the factory. For example, Laguna buys Taiwanese cast iron parts that they monitor closely. This was a useful discussion.


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## Hypnotoad (Apr 17, 2018)

DesertRatTom said:


> I think many good brands have Chinese origins, but with tight QC in the factory. For example, Laguna buys Taiwanese cast iron parts that they monitor closely. This was a useful discussion.


You are correct, it's like I said about golf clubs, nearly all those top branded clubs you see professionals use and are sold in sports stores are either fully made or made of parts made in China. At the other end of the scale cheap clubs, counterfeits and knock offs from China are very poor quality, you can't tar them all with the one brush.


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## reuelt (Dec 29, 2008)

Hypnotoad said:


> CMT 841.880.11 = $79.00
> Carbitool TC16 B 1/2 = $59.00
> Huhao 6201 = $18.00


Carbitools is a good MELBOURNE company and as an Australian Citizens I bought quite a few bits from them. I also bought the 10pc Brass template guide bushings and universal template guide from them.
Carbitools bits and saws can be returned for resharpening and they also can make bits to your specs.
They also resell imported quality T-cut router bits sets for Handyman use.
One of my church member a migrant from China works there and was paid DECENT Australian wages to work on precision CNC lathes and CNC laser cutters.
I have never bought any CMT because I do not like their METRICATED design.
CMT makes saws with 100% 30mm bore (+ washers) and 250mm diameter (instead of 254mm) when I need 5/8" or 1" bore and 10" diameter (254mm) blades. If I buy ITALIAN metricated blade I will instantly have reduced depth of cut.
I had also wanted to buy their COOKTOP jig but it was designed for 30mm guide bush and 12mm router bits YET their do not sell nor supply 30mm guide bush or a 12mm router bits with them in Australia. If I buy one from UK, I can get a 30mm guide bush bundled and use standard 1/2" router bits.
So buying LOCAL has advantages.

I used to buy Vermont American circular blades until Bosch bought their company and destroyed their brand. Bosch also bought Skil and decided to sack all American workers by selling Skil to a China based company and letting the china company do that dirty job for them.
And yet so many American Router Forum members are pushing Bosch. WHY?


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## sreilly (May 22, 2018)

reuelt said:


> I used to buy Vermont American circular blades until Bosch bought their company and destroyed their brand. Bosch also bought Skil and decided to sack all American workers by selling Skil to a China based company and letting the china company do that dirty job for them.
> And yet so many American Router Forum members are pushing Bosch. WHY?


I have to admit that I knew little about Bosch when I bought I my routers but that they had a solid reputation when it came to routers. I've also heard great things about their circular saw. I own a Bosch orbital sander as well based on reputation. That said, when I did have questions about the proper bushing set for the 1617EVS and called Bosch the lady I spoke with wasn't very helpful. I had better luck getting information from the dealers themselves. As far as usage, most of its life has been spent in my router table and I have a Colt for lighter handheld jobs. I also have several old Craftsman routers and an old Power Kraft which belonged to my Father-in-Law, all fixed base. 

I try to buy all American made tools, well almost everything actually, but that's almost impossible these days. When you think they're American made you find out that maybe only the tag and packaging was. My SawStop PCS is a fine example of an American company, now owned by Festool I believe, and made in Asia. But as far as quality, the fit and finish is great. Everything is square and the finish is great. The braking system was the prime reason for getting this saw and the best reason I know of to continue using it. My Father-in-law cut 3 of his fingers on his right hand nearly off and fortunately it was in the early days of microsurgery and they were able to reattach and give him the use back. Wasn't the prettiest but functional. For me there was no questioning when I asked my wife about getting the SawStop after we watched the video and _saw_ one in demo. As long as tight QC is performed in manufacturing and assembly there's no reason you shouldn't end up with a great product. But I would prefer to support American workers as long as the quality is good.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

sreilly said:


> I have to admit that I knew little about Bosch when I bought I my routers but that they had a solid reputation when it came to routers. I've also heard great things about their circular saw. I own a Bosch orbital sander as well based on reputation.


http://www.routerforums.com/new-member-introductions/135057-new-help.html


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## reuelt (Dec 29, 2008)

sreilly said:


> I try to buy all American made tools, well almost everything actually, but that's almost impossible these days.


Agree.
I have been a factory manger for 15year in a large factory. Even during the oil shock when we were loosing money and little sales, I did NOT sack even 1 worker. When I left the company there were more than 3,000 employees and making tens of Millions dollars a month. How? By improving product quality.


I admire Stanley Black and Decker more since they buy companies to keep and create more American Jobs.
Bosch took over Swiss Sia Abrasives that was making tons of money. In Melbourne the business grow from nothing to a very good profitable company and very sound cash flow and cash in Bank. When Bosch took it over, the MD & the Financial controller was simply dismissed - for being too good & successful I suppose. Those 2 happened to be my friends. The German company EINHELL bought our Ozito company. Straightway those same but rebadged Chinese made products went up in price by 200-300%. Metabo another German company tried to make some of their bandsaw and other tools in China. The result is they went under instead. Hitachi Koki bought it but then even Hitachi Koki + Metabo now are owned by an American Company. 
So there is hope that Manufacturing will return to USA as long as Americans don't betray other US citizens by pushing Bosch.
I have Bosch alternators, distributors in my old cars and a Bosch circular saw with riving knife. They invented the magneto and spark plugs and electric hair trimmer and own the patent for Electric Rotary Hammers. They are good at less accurate stuff.

Precision routers? No way!. Bosch's plunge routers in Australia had bush only one of the two pillars.
Because they did not buy router patents, their fixed base routers do not have Imperial screw threads. Imperial system screw thread is by TPI (threads per inch) so by counting the number of quarter turns you can get precise height like 1/16", 1/8" or 1/4" or 1/2" or 1" etc just by rotation.
Metric screw threads system CANNOT do that. On the 1617 the adjustment is 1.6mm pitch. Turn it 16 times and you get 25.6mm which is NOT = 1 ".
If you look at the latest research being done by Bosch, they are all about cuting jobs and car drivers..


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Abuse of deceased equines.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

reuelt said:


> Precision routers? No way!. Bosch's plunge routers in Australia had bush only one of the two pillars.
> Because they did not buy router patents, their fixed base routers do not have Imperial screw threads.


Check your M12V. Mine only has one bushing on one pillar. Years ago one on the Mods asked members to check their collets for diameter and pitch. I think he suspected as I've learned that there are fewer different ones than I first believed. I checked mine to see what the dimensions were. 3 Hitachi M12s (all different ones) and one old DW 610 model that's been discontinued for years. I expected to find metric threads on the Hitachis. I was surprised to find that the old DW was also metric. I've since discovered that the collets for that 610 appear to be an identical match to an old Bosch collet. Shape and dimensions on Elaire's website are so close to what I measure that I would have a hard time believing that they aren't but I don't have a Bosch that used those collets to be sure. And since my DW is metric I would suspect that the Bosch is also metric even if made in a US factory. The fact that my DW is old yet still metric makes me question where the country of origin is. At the time when it was made metric tooling in North American factories would have been fairly uncommon.


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## reuelt (Dec 29, 2008)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> Check your M12V. Mine only has one bushing on one pillar. Years ago one on the Mods asked members to check their collets for diameter and pitch. I think he suspected as I've learned that there are fewer different ones than I first believed. I checked mine to see what the dimensions were. 3 Hitachi M12s (all different ones) and one old DW 610 model that's been discontinued for years. I expected to find metric threads on the Hitachis. I was surprised to find that the old DW was also metric. I've since discovered that the collets for that 610 appear to be an identical match to an old Bosch collet. Shape and dimensions on Elaire's website are so close to what I measure that I would have a hard time believing that they aren't but I don't have a Bosch that used those collets to be sure. And since my DW is metric I would suspect that the Bosch is also metric even if made in a US factory. The fact that my DW is old yet still metric makes me question where the country of origin is. At the time when it was made metric tooling in North American factories would have been fairly uncommon.


My M12V does not have precision issues. People have reported precision issues with their Bosch plunge routers in the Australian woodworking forums that Bosch pillars have enough movement on one pillar to spoil dovetail cuts.
Fixed base routers Carter, Hitachi, Porter Cable, Dewalt have height rotation using 16tpi or 64tpi threads.

The Bosch 1617 has a 1.6mm pitch screw thread for height adjustments - that is an imprecision issue.
It doesn't matter whether the other fastening screws or collet threads are metric or imperial if not used for rotation to distance conversion.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

In thinking a bit more about your response regarding thread pitch, I don't know how it would make a difference top most of us. I go for as close as I can get with measuring tools or by eye and then if I need an adjustment I add or subtract a little. Often the amount of adjustment is in the thousandths if it's a critical fit like rail to stile and that would be impossible to gauge by estimating a percentage of a turn on a screw. That's the sort of fit you sneak up on with trial and error. I'm not sure I would trust how precise counting a turn would be anyway die to the amount of backlash in those threaded rods. Those are not precision threads. They are probably at best 75% since they have to work with a bit of dust on them.


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## GollyRojer (Jun 16, 2018)

I've owned and used a set of four MLCS roundover bits for several years. I use them for four or five projects a year. Never have had any problems. No carbide bullets, the bearings are still good. I'm disappointed to read all the negative reviews. I figured MLCS was a reputable source.


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## woodknots (Mar 7, 2012)

GollyRojer said:


> I've owned and used a set of four MLCS roundover bits for several years. I use them for four or five projects a year. Never have had any problems. No carbide bullets, the bearings are still good. *I'm disappointed to read all the negative reviews.* I figured MLCS was a reputable source.


Don't be discouraged by people's *PERSONAL OPINIONS* - 'cause that's all they are; opinions. If you read through this thread you will see that someone is constantly slamming Bosch - that one individual's opinion has not and will not change my mind about MY Bosch router, or Bosch SCMS, 12" inch, dual bevel or my Bosch table saw. I think they are great tools, and *IN MY OPINION*, I wouldn't buy Black and Decker if you paid me, or Porter Cable for that matter. I have tools made by each but they are older tools and still work great, but the new stuff - no thanks. But if someone else likes them, great, your choice.


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

What Vince said.
I use MCLS bits ,Freud Bits, Bosch bits CMT,Whiteside, Infinity, they all work good for me. I am not a high production shop,just hobby work, and I don't have any problems with any of them. An old guy like me started years ago with the HSSteel bits, and these carbide are like cutting warm butter with a butter knife, compared to those old bits.

Herb


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## woodknots (Mar 7, 2012)

Herb - I started with a set of HSS bits years ago too - a set I bought at Sears. They're still in my basement but I wouldn't use them today with the availability of carbide.


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## Hypnotoad (Apr 17, 2018)

vchiarelli said:


> Herb - I started with a set of HSS bits years ago too - a set I bought at Sears. They're still in my basement but I wouldn't use them today with the availability of carbide.


I used to live in a small country town in Australia and could buy Vermont American HSS router bits at the local hardware store, from memory they worked quite well, although you had to get the feed speed just right or they would burn, and I could sharpen them with one of those Carborundum stones. But like everyone else as soon as they started bringing out carbide tipped bits they gathered dust.


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## reuelt (Dec 29, 2008)

Hypnotoad said:


> I used to live in a small country town in Australia and could buy Vermont American HSS router bits at the local hardware store, from memory they worked quite well, although you had to get the feed speed just right or they would burn, and I could sharpen them with one of those Carborundum stones. But like everyone else as soon as they started bringing out carbide tipped bits they gathered dust.


Agree.
I still have some 1/4" shank HSS VA bits. They can cut very beautifully when sharpened. Safer too because it is usually 1 piece with no welded joints like in TCT bits.
Hasn't used them after I got rid of my 1/4" shank routers. Will reuse on on CNC router spindle.
Almost all wood turning chisels are HSS. 
Endmills are HSS too.


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## pwabrahams (Sep 21, 2013)

Don't knock Chinese quality so readily. Look at their supercomputers and high-speed trains. Some Chinese stuff is junk; some other stuff is high quality. Like American stuff.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

*Neeeeiiiigh Saying*



DesertRatTom said:


> Abuse of deceased equines.


Heh...took me a sec.


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

DaninVan said:


> Heh...took me a sec.


Animal Abuse


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Herb Stoops said:


> Animal Abuse


beating a dead horse...


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## Eddie_T (Sep 17, 2009)

I like MLCS for their free shipping. I don't use my routers often but have had no problem with MLCS bits.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Geez, you guys...if you have to _explain_ the joke!


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

Was that a joke or the truth? 

@Stick486

PC = Same thing.
Herb


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

me??
DIIK.....


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## hankh (Jun 25, 2013)

*Arden Taiwan vs. China*



Hypnotoad said:


> To Stick and others, I am not trying to offend anyone and I am the first to admit that a lot of what comes out of China is rubbish and not worth anything like the cheap prices they charge, my wife bought me a HD Dash Cam god bless her. It wasn't HD and most of what it recorded was a blur, luckily we got our money back and didn't need to even return it.
> 
> But on the other hand they do make good stuff as well, and I firmly believe they will transition like Japan did from having a reputation of making rubbish to a reputation of making quality goods, it may take a while, but in the interim bargains can be had if you know where to look and what to buy, I have to correct myself though on Arden they are actually made in Taiwan and have a stall at the upcoming (August 22-25, 2018) International Woodworking Fair in Atlanta Georgia if anyone is interested. No Affiliation.


This is a very interesting discussion - lots of personal opinions based not only on experience but "philosophy" - should I buy tools at my skill level (and budget) or get something better that maybe will help me get better? Will I be able to appreciate the difference between a Stanley ($100), WoodRiver ($140) or Lie-Nielsen ($325) smoothing plane? How often will I use it? There obviously are no RIGHT answers here. Probably some universal answers like, a cheap tool may be dangerous or a really lousy tool can take the joy out of the work and cause disappointment and discouragement.
Now to my question - I searched for Arden tools (says something about my philosophy - I try to balance quality and price without going cheap, when I've stretched my budget I've ususally been pleased). I found the site for Aden Tools, Taiwan, but the purchase sites that I get to list the brand as HuHao (china) even though the labelling looks like Arden. Does anyone know where to buy Arden Taiwan online?


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

This is what shows up in Canada...
https://www.aliexpress.com/popular/straight-router-bit-arden.html

Seems like a branding issue.


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

DaninVan said:


> This is what shows up in Canada...
> https://www.aliexpress.com/popular/straight-router-bit-arden.html
> 
> Seems like a branding issue.


Or maybe a counterfeit riding on the name of Arden. How would one know? Faith? no thanks.
Herb


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## Hypnotoad (Apr 17, 2018)

hankh said:


> Does anyone know where to buy Arden Taiwan online?





DaninVan said:


> This is what shows up in Canada...
> https://www.aliexpress.com/popular/straight-router-bit-arden.html
> 
> Seems like a branding issue.


Try this link, I have bought of these people and found Arden are first class bits for a fraction of the price of other brand name bits. Anyone else on here actually used Arden or Huhao industrial bits, which I have found to be excellent also? I say again though buy what ever brand you like, but please don't knock something you have never tried. 

https://www.aliexpress.com/store/group/ARDEN-Router-Bits/123417_253661102.html?spm=2114.12010609.0.0.267327116KD6zh


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## routafinger (Dec 30, 2009)

Found this old thread; interesting reading. I'm a hobbyist, and coming from that part of the woodworking group. Just curious, I found no mention of Woodline. I do have a few of their bits, and have had satisfactory results with them. When buying or replacing, I usually just go to our local building supply store and buy CMT, but Amazon has opened up a whole new way to shop. 

This isn't related, and I didn't want to start a new thread, or hijack this one, but as I mentioned in another post, I bought a Freud FT3000VCE from Woodcrafters as a Black Friday deal a number of years back. In spite of it being a bulky powerful monster, I have gotten used to it.............sort of. At the time, I also had a Freud biscuit joiner which I have used a lot, and extremely happy with it. Both solid tools, but I just recently found out that Freud quit making their power tools. Probably the year after their Black Friday dump at Woodcrafters. I have some of their router bits, and have found them to be more than adequate for my needs. Point is, I think Freud is solely making bits and blades, and I'm glad they didn't give up that part of their business.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

You've had good luck with your Freud power tools Frank. I didn't and many others also didn't. One weak point on the routers is the speed control which is a very cheaply made potentiometer as opposed to the more modern sine wave controls. My FT 2000 quit on me not long out of warranty with a fried armature. $265 for a new armature, $275 for a new router. The repair facility I took it to , which is an old one with a fantastic reputation, told me it was poorly made. Needless to say I didn't go with either option. Freud probably quit selling power tools (which they didn't make by the way, they only had their name on them) because the poor quality of their tools was damaging the good name they had built for selling quality bits and blades.

I have one or two Woodline bits I got good deals on on ebay. They seem good enough.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

> Point is, I think Freud is solely making bits and blades, and I'm glad they didn't give up that part of their business.


Freud bits and blades are separate entities from Freud power tools...
this forum has many different posts by different posters on Freud power tool failures and that the tools can't be or are too expensive to fix...


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## mgmine (Jan 16, 2012)

I've said many times that bits are a disposable item. I started with HS like Herd and went to carbide. I'm still using a set that I got off Ebay for something like $40.00 They have served me well over the years and I have never had a problem with them. I have bought most if not all of my specialty bits from MLCS because of their free shipping and price and can't say enough good things about them. I'm sure that the brand name bits are very good and will most likely outlast the average user. But for me, I'd rather buy what I need when I need it . I would rather but the specialty bit from MLCS and use it a few times than try to make do with some other bit because the specialty bit from the name brand guys cost too much to justify.


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## gn86 (Jul 25, 2019)

Newb with first router (used plunge router) looking to get a bit set to get started. I noticed that a lot of the small-ish budget sets do not include a rabbeting bit, but the MLCS set does - specifically, I was looking at the MLCS 8377 15-pc set with 1/2" shanks (too newb to have link posting permissions, but if you search for that item, it will come up, or search on Amazon for "B000FJRN8S"). 

Couple of questions on this set. Does it have different size bearings (and can I move them from bit to bit) so that I can cut different size rabbets?

Are the straight cut bits the correct size to cut dados for US dimensioned plywood, or are they true to size, meaning plywood will fit loosely?


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

heads up FYI...
MCLS bits rank pretty low in quality...


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

gn86 said:


> Newb with first router (used plunge router) looking to get a bit set to get started. I noticed that a lot of the small-ish budget sets do not include a rabbeting bit, but the MLCS set does - specifically, I was looking at the MLCS 8377 15-pc set with 1/2" shanks (too newb to have link posting permissions, but if you search for that item, it will come up, or search on Amazon for "B000FJRN8S").
> 
> Couple of questions on this set. Does it have different size bearings (and can I move them from bit to bit) so that I can cut different size rabbets?
> 
> Are the straight cut bits the correct size to cut dados for US dimensioned plywood, or are they true to size, meaning plywood will fit loosely?


You may want to look at this set,or a similar one for doing a lot of rabbiting:

https://www.amazon.com/CMT-835-501-...ting+bit+set&qid=1564246102&s=hi&sr=1-1-fkmr1

Herb


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

If you think you'll be doing very many rabbets Jay then you'll at least want to get a set like Herb linked to and if you plan on really doing a lot then you'll want to get a bit with replaceable carbide cutters like this Amana: https://www.toolstoday.com/insert-superabbet-jr-router-bits.html It's a lot more money but you only replace the cutting edges not the whole bit and some say those cutters last longer because they didn't get welded on.

As for dadoes to fit US finish plywood, that's a problem because finish plywood starts out at the correct size but then gets sanded so it winds up undersize. 3/4" finish ply might only be 23/32 or less when sanded. As a result, some members use an exact width dado jig and use a smaller bit and then cuts each edge of the channel separately. Some links to exact width dado jigs can be found in some posts in this thread.
https://www.routerforums.com/jigs-fixtures/137621-exact-width-dado-jig.html


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## gn86 (Jul 25, 2019)

Herb Stoops said:


> You may want to look at this set,or a similar one for doing a lot of rabbiting:
> 
> Herb





Cherryville Chuck said:


> If you think you'll be doing very many rabbets Jay then you'll at least want to get a set like Herb linked to and if you plan on really doing a lot then you'll want to get a bit with replaceable carbide cutters like this Amana: It's a lot more money but you only replace the cutting edges not the whole bit and some say those cutters last longer because they didn't get welded on.


I don't expect I'll be doing much rabbeting or much routing in general - more of an occasional use thing, at least that's what I'm thinking at this point, after having just picked up my first router. I was looking at that MLCS set because I was thinking I could get a budget set that covers my near-term anticipated uses - i.e., round over, dado, rabbet. And when I looked at the sub-20 piece budget sets, most of them didn't have a rabbeting bit, which is why the MLCS caught my eye. The rabbeting bit would be useful if I can swap bearings and cut different width rabbets.



Cherryville Chuck said:


> As for dadoes to fit US finish plywood, that's a problem because finish plywood starts out at the correct size but then gets sanded so it winds up undersize. 3/4" finish ply might only be 23/32 or less when sanded. As a result, some members use an exact width dado jig and use a smaller bit and then cuts each edge of the channel separately. Some links to exact width dado jigs can be found in some posts in this thread.


Thanks. OK, so I'll scratch the idea of getting plywood/undersized bits.

That makes the MLCS set even more interesting because it could cover everything I have in mind near-term: round over bits, straight cut bits (used with an exact width dado jig for plywood joints) and rabbeting bit.

If someone makes a budget set with just those bits, I'd be interested - no plans for making anything for indoors (furniture, picture frames, etc.), so no need for a lot of the bits. The MLCS was the closest thing I could find.


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

For just occasional use the MCLS bits are OK, I have some, but for serious work I use the Infinity or Freud. And there are other good sets out there, but you get what you pay for in router bits.

There are usually sales going on during the year that some good bargains can be had.

The best bet is to buy just the bit you need to do the job on hand and then you have it and can buy a different one for the next one, that way you build a set of bits that are used for the type of work you do.
Straight bits are not that expensive and can do a lot of standard cuts., by using the fence on the table to set the distances. and with bearings to do template routing ,which you will like once you do it. it just requires a straight bit with a bearing guide on top that follows the template you make and cuts out the part exactly like the template.


https://www.infinitytools.com/routing/router-bits/carbide/general-purpose-router-bit-sets

Herb


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

My Sommerfeld bits are door sets, except for the dovetail bits that came with their dovetail jig. The quality of goods made in China depends on the marketing company's inspections and standards. For example, Laguna has its hybrid table saw and 14/12 band saw made in China (Taiwan is also China), and Laguna demands they seson their cast iron for 6 months or more so it stabilizes before milling. That kind of thing makes all the difference. I almost always buy bits as I need them. I have a strong preference for Freud bits, which are available in 2 days online, or 20 minutes at HD.


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## gn86 (Jul 25, 2019)

Herb Stoops said:


> For just occasional use the MCLS bits are OK


That's what I'm anticipating. And if I find myself making more than anticipated use out of a particular bit, I can step up to a Freud or other high quality bit for that profile.



Herb Stoops said:


> Straight bits are not that expensive and can do a lot of standard cuts., by using the fence on the table to set the distances. and with bearings to do template routing ,which you will like once you do it. it just requires a straight bit with a bearing guide on top that follows the template you make and cuts out the part exactly like the template.


So any straight bit can be adapted with a bearing to do template routing, or you have to get a straight bit + bearing as one assembly?


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## Biagio (Mar 2, 2013)

Jay, any straight bit can be fitted with a bearing and retaining collar ( outer diameter smaller than the bearing, and with a grub screw). However there is a practical limitation: for template routing the cutter diameter must generally be larger than the shaft of the bit, as the outer diameter of the bearing must be the same as the diameter of the cutter. If you look at one of the bit catalogues (I use the Lee Valley one, mostly to salivate), you will see the available combinations. If the shaft and cutter, are the same diameter, e.g. a straight 1/2” or 1/4” bit, you would need to sandwich the bearing between two retaining collars, which kind of defeats the purpose, except for some very clever applications.

There are of course exceptions, but these are usually not for straight bits, e.g. for dovetail bits, where the bearing OD may be larger than the cutter OD, depending on the fingers of the template.


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## anndel (Aug 18, 2019)

Have the MCLS chinese-made starter set but been replacing the ones I used most with Whiteside. Not sure if it's only me but it's night and day as the MCLS leaves a significant mount of tearout when doing dados for drawer bottoms. The Whiteside bit leaves very little to none.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

anndel said:


> Have the MCLS chinese-made starter set but been replacing the ones I used most with Whiteside. Not sure if it's only me but it's night and day as the MCLS leaves a significant mount of tearout when doing dados for drawer bottoms. The Whiteside bit leaves very little to none.


it's not you...


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

A few years back there some really cheaply made bits from Asia that were made essentially the same as your local hardware store copies a key for you. They were really crappy. Poor carbide, sometimes not brazed well, and roughly sharpened. The gap has narrowed some because I don't think there is any maker left who isn't using a CNC to make them now, but the carbide quality, the sharpening, cutter geometry, the brazing, and quality control can still be issues so you still get what you pay for.

There are some rare circumstances when the rules seem to change a bit. I was talking to an uncle a few days ago who I consider to be a master woodworker. He was using a Freud to try and profile some knotty western red cedar. WRC has notoriously hard knots and the Freud chipped right away . Freud is supposed to use a C4 grade carbide. He switched to a cheaper C3 grade carbide bit and finished a fair size run with no problem. C3 handles impacts better than C4 does but isn't as hard so wears quicker.


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## jackcartermo (Aug 25, 2021)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> A few years back there some really cheaply made bits from Asia that were made essentially the same as your local hardware store copies a key for you. They were really crappy. Poor carbide, sometimes not brazed well, and roughly sharpened. The gap has narrowed some because I don't think there is any maker left who isn't using a CNC to make them now, but the carbide quality, the sharpening, cutter geometry, the brazing, and quality control can still be issues so you still get what you pay for.
> 
> There are some rare circumstances when the rules seem to change a bit. I was talking to an uncle a few days ago who I consider to be a master woodworker. He was using a Freud to try and profile some knotty western red cedar. WRC has notoriously hard knots and the Freud chipped right away . Freud is supposed to use a C4 grade carbide. He switched to a cheaper C3 grade carbide bit and finished a fair size run with no problem. C3 handles impacts better than C4 does but isn't as hard so wears quicker.


Are these cnc router bits reliable enough for long term routing?


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## old55 (Aug 11, 2013)

Welcome to the forum @jackcartermo 

This thread dates back to 2019 and you will in all likelihood not get a response. If you are serious about your inquiry start another thread. Enjoy the forum.


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

Welcome tothe forum @jackcartermo .

As old55 suggested, it may be better to start a new thread.


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## Eddie_T (Sep 17, 2009)

Why are older comments no longer pertinent?


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## Garyk (Dec 29, 2011)

sreilly said:


> I'm curious about MCLS router bits. I have a set that I picked up back some time ago when I was in Huntingdon Valley, Pa doing some telescope work and was wondering about others experiences. These are carbide tipped bits but as I've come to find out there's a big difference in bit quality. The set I have is lightly used being only a few used so far and have for the most part been buying Whiteside individual bits as needed and a few Infinity bits that are somewhat unique and/or on sale. I read a few posts on Sommerfeld bits and visited their website which is quite dated I think. Seems their last catalog is a few years old, at least according to the website. I did email them and inquired where their bits were made and was advised in China.
> 
> I bought the MCLS set because it was a bargain and I wanted 1/2" shank bits for the router table and my Bosch 1617EVS. That plus I was there and the discounted price seemed to good to pass up. I figured it would be a quick start until I figured just what I needed and I'm a bit impulsive. I also picked up a scratch and dent drill press table that at their price I couldn't have built for less.
> 
> I also added to my tools a Bosch Colt router that takes 1/4" shank bits only so I need to determine what use that will serve. So far I'm thinking that will work fine for my Porter Cable Dovetail jig and trim work. So I imagine most everyone has their own preferences for bits and what they consider good value but I'd be interested in hearing about that. I own a few Freud bits, the above mentioned 66 piece MCLS set, and now about a dozen Whiteside bits not to mention about 5 Infinity bits. And I haven't used any enough to decide on which I like best. I do have a Lapped Miter bit and setup blocks coming from Infinity that seem to be taking forever to get here. I ordered them on 6/3 but it's like waiting on an IRS refund.....


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## Garyk (Dec 29, 2011)

I have had good results with either Whiteside or Fisch bits. My choice for use in woodturning is Fisch.


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## Eddie_T (Sep 17, 2009)

I am an occasional router user. I have several MLCS bits mainly because of free shipping. I may reach for my face shield the next time i use them, prolly should be using it anyway.


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## ScottyDBQ (Jul 5, 2008)

Lots of interesting detailed information and opinions from Stick in the old days. The quality of an opinion is based on perception, knowledge, experience and judgment. He had 'em all.


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## neville9999 (Jul 22, 2010)

Stick486 said:


> MCLS... won't touch them... had one lose it's carbide and hit me in the ear.. the wasn't any fun and expensive too... reconstructive surgery wasn't any picnic either...
> PC dovetail... re-gifted the one I got as a gift... it has since been re-gifted several times... real partial to my Leigh D4R...
> Whiteside.. good stuff...
> Freud.. my preference as I was a commercial operation... better bits w/ high mileage and most excellent CS... very good overall value...


So that was what happened, hit in the head with some carbide at 30,000rpm's, ouch. N


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

thailotto512 said:


> Thai Lottery Results Today Live Win Thailand Lottery. The Thai lottery is drawn on the first and sixteenth of every month.


I've know a couple of people whose retirement plans start with winning a lottery.


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

DesertRatTom said:


> I've know a couple of people whose retirement plans start with winning a lottery.


 Same here, Tom, but I have reported this one for spam.....LOL


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## Eddie_T (Sep 17, 2009)

I need a new bit to use with my Joint-a-Billi-T jointing jig for routers. I ended up welding some copper to the carbide on my current bit (don't ask me how I did that but I also need to repair my power cord). I was looking at MCLS as I only use the jig about once per year. I may try filing the copper off first as I have nothing to lose at this point.


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