# new member question



## livetosculpt (Mar 26, 2014)

Hi all, My name is John Reichert, and I'm a sculptor. My other business, which is a chocolate store and chocolate manufacturing business. We create and cast lots of custom chocolate shapes, in house, in addition to our truffles and product we sell in the store. We make all of our own chocolate molds in house.

We also build 5 string banjos. I'm not new to cnc's, I've had two small taig cnc mills for years, but with the instrument building I'm seeing a need for something a bit larger. I also have thermo-forming equipment, and it would be nice to be able to cnc larger patterns for thermo-forming. 

My question has probably been asked dozens of times, and I've searched the web, and I can't find the answer. What should I buy?

I'd like a 2'x3' working area, 5" minimum z height. Spindle, not router, and well built. I have around $6000 to spend. I can probably scrape together a little more. There are two machine sellers within driving distance of my business, Baileigh, who sells the WR-23 for $6300. and Automation technologies, who sells a KL-6090 for much less than the Baileigh unit. The cnc from Baileigh weighs 650 lbs. so it can't be all that cheap. I don't know the weight of the KL-6090. I'm also interested in the stinger 1 from Camaster, but I'm afraid it might be out of my price range set up like I need it. 

Any ideas? Thanks, John


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## old55 (Aug 11, 2013)

Welcome to the forum John I'm sure someone will come along and give you assistance.


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## livetosculpt (Mar 26, 2014)

Thanks Ross


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## Semipro (Mar 22, 2013)

Hello John, welcome to Router Forums, glad to have you join us on the router forums, I'm positive the members of the community would be more than willing to answer any questions you have


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## mikelley (Aug 2, 2012)

This forum amazes me!


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## fixtureman (Jul 5, 2012)

You say you are within driving distance to each of those business's I would go there and see first hand the machines you are looking at. ask questions about each and then make your decision based on that.


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## BCK (Feb 23, 2014)

welcome aboard...and as stated..if you can go and physically see each..that's where I'd start...


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## 4DThinker (Feb 16, 2014)

Probotix makes a CNC with 24" x 37" x 5" cutting area, although to get the 5" of height you need to remount the MDF provided inside instead of ON the frame. $3645, and that includes the PC/Monitor/Keyboard/Mouse/and game pad to use as a jog control. I have their larger Meteor and love it. 

FireBall Asteroid - FireBall Asteroid

For software to do what you want I recommend Vectric's Aspire. Pricey, but it'll handle the 3D neede to do your form work as well as be incredibly useful on the instruments. You can download a free trial version with all the features except being able to cut the files you create. 

Vectric Ltd - Passionate About CNC

You'll need a router or spindle for the Asteroid, but Probotix will include the clamp needed. Call them if you know which spindle you want to use.


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

mikelley said:


> This forum amazes me!



Me too, every day. :yes4:


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## BradD (Mar 21, 2014)

Hi, John. I'm new, too.

Some other systems to check out would be the Rockler CNC Shark and Shopbot. I built a kit from CNC Router Parts which I am quite happy with. They might have a machine in your size range. 

So many choices!

Good luck figureing it all out.

Brad


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## gtsharp (Mar 10, 2014)

Hi John, I'm new also. If you do have an inkling to build your own, you might check out "Joe'sCNC.com" . I built a 4x4 Evolution R&P and am totally happy with it. Built mine for less than $3500 and didn't really cut any corners anywhere buying what was needed.

PS-Sorry, I wasn't able to post a URL link till I have 10 posts.


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## livetosculpt (Mar 26, 2014)

Thanks, I'll check that out!


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## BradD (Mar 21, 2014)

Hi John,



> GTSharp said, "If you do have an inkling to build your own, you might check out "Joe'sCNC.com" . I built a 4x4 Evolution R&P and am totally happy with it. Built mine for less than $3500 and didn't really cut any corners anywhere buying what was needed."


I'm going to throw in my Standard 2 Cents of Advice #1 here: First you must decide if you want to _build _a CNC machine, or do you want to _use _a CNC machine. If you want to _use _a CNC machine, you will want a complete machine or a proven kit that is complete including electronics. Otherwise the build may take longer than you wanted it to, and may well end in failure. If you want to _build _a CNC, then all options are open, but you will be pretty much on your own.

That's my 2 cents. I wish you good luck, either way. 

Brad


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## bgriggs (Nov 26, 2008)

BradD said:


> Hi John,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Brad,

I would like to respectfully disagree. While what you say was true recently there have been a number of changes that make it much easier to build a CNC Router.

Groups like Joescnc and CNC router parts have made the task much simpler and the choices much easier to make. If a user follows the plans that are already out their they can have success. 

However, I do agree that if a person tries to build a machine without first thinking the project through and doing a lot of research they will fail. I have built or taken part in the building of 8 router tables so far. It is not rocket science.

If anyone would like my assistance in their research or building project, just ask and I will do what I can to help you. 

Here is a link to a table I helped some local college students build. 

Warp Drive Project Story Part 2 - THE MAKERS GUIDE

Students Make a CNC Router Table - Maker Masters

Bill


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## BradD (Mar 21, 2014)

bgriggs said:


> Brad, I would like to respectfully disagree...


Howdy, Bill. We will have to agree to disagree on this. You are right that things are much easier now than even a few years ago. But my advice is aimed directly at the person who wants to _*use*_ a CNC for a known purpose that does not necessarily include _building _the machine as part of the journey. 

John (LiveToSculpt) has a going business and CNC experience. He sounds like a CNC _User _to me. If he were me, he'd be going for the complete solution.

If someone is not willing to take more than a couple weeks getting their machine up and running, I don't recommend that they try to tackle the mechanical build, plus choosing and integrating the electronics, plus learning the software on top of learning to actually _use _the machine, unless it's a hobby pursuit. If you're not confidant that you can complete your machine from the get-go, then go with a complete solution. 

I have seen firsthand in industry, and met capable hobbyists that tried to retrofit or roll their own go into overtime and over budget. 

You mention CNC Router parts, who supplied my complete Router kit. It was a pleasant and rewarding experience to build my kit, with a very professional, well executed final product to show for it. BUT, I bought the whole package from them, and their excellent support helped me through the build to completion. In a week I was making router dust without any hair pulling.

Brad


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## bgriggs (Nov 26, 2008)

BradD said:


> Hi John,
> 
> If you want to _build _a CNC, then all options are open, but you will be pretty much on your own.
> 
> ...


Brad,

I have seen you posting for years and I respect the good work that you do. 

My disagreement with your statement was with the user being "On Your Own". I meant to point out that there are now several online communities which document and assist new builder to make their own CNC machines. Most of these communities are paid membership sites but there are now quite a few ways to explore the subject. 

Keep up the good work.

Bill


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## bgriggs (Nov 26, 2008)

BTW I agree that if you just want to Use a CNC, you should just go buy one.


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## BradD (Mar 21, 2014)

bgriggs said:


> Brad,
> 
> I have seen you posting for years and I respect the good work that you do. ... Keep up the good work.
> 
> Bill


Thank you, Bill. I appreciate the good words. I see you as one of the "pillars" of this community. 



> My disagreement with your statement was with the user being "On Your Own"...


Agreed. Even as "no man is an island," the corollary is that no one is ever totally "on their own." The choices we make determine how good/how much help is available.



> BTW I agree that if you just want to Use a CNC, you should just go buy one.


And if your situation allows it, then building your own from kit or scratch is fun, rewarding, educational, and can even save some bucks!


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## bgriggs (Nov 26, 2008)

I love Routerforums.com


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## Knothead47 (Feb 10, 2010)

If you go the "already built" route, as mentioned, go to the manufacturer and look at their machines. I would also ask for a demo. Ask the question as to why their machine is better than the others. See what they have to say that sets them apart from the others. Compare the features which translate into benefits for you. Good luck! Do you need a tasting technician at your chocolate factory! I work cheap.


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## livetosculpt (Mar 26, 2014)

Thanks for all of the great advice. I really don't want to build one, i'd rather spend the time using it to create sculptures, instrument necks, etc. I haven't purchased yet, I'm trying to get a bit of a price break on a US built machine, but nobody seems to be willing to budge on price. The $$$ burning a hole in my pocket. I've looked at a couple of Chinese machines, and was not really impressed with the quality,
John


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## 4DThinker (Feb 16, 2014)

The best values I've found for a ready-to-run US-built CNC are from Probotix, located in Peoria Illinois. They sell direct rather than through a retailer, and their Comet, Asteroid, and Meteor CNCs come complete with a PC/Monitor/keyboard/mouse/Gamepad and are all under $4K. All you have to add is the router, and they provide the clamp to fit whichever one you choose.

You do need software to design and tool path for the CNC, but the control software to send the resulting file to the CNC is LinuxCNC. I use VCarve from Vectric.com.

I own their Meteor with 25" x 50" cutting area, and have no complaints about it or the company: FireBall Meteor


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## cnewb (Jul 14, 2009)

*Buying the ideal machine*

Hello, John

First, let me say that I agree with Brad D and others about the build versus buy issue. I spent 3 years building my own, to the extent of machining many of the parts on my manual
milling machine. Finally, I decide I would rather use it than build it. I reevaluated my needs
and started looking or a "good" value purchase. I too wanted a 24" x 36" table with 4" - 6" of
Z travel. 

I realized that I have never made anything that large and could get by on something smaller.

I looked at all of the ones mentioned by the others on this thread, found nothing really wrong with any of them, except the price.

I did a web search ..... ALIBABA, an index of Chinese Manufacturers and found
my perfect machine. Almost 18 months later, I have not regretted my decision.

I bought one that has a useful cutting size of 25" X 18" with about 4" of Z travel. I have yet to cut anything more than 1.5" tall, so that is not a problem. It comes with a water-cooled spindle. AND, a much improved ( Black ) CNC controller box. Beware Ebay BLUE_BOX machines.

So far I have cut almost every kind of plastic, wood, aluminum, and even thin steel.
The secret there is proper cutter type for the material and optimum "feeds & speeds" for
the material. Quite an adventure figuring all that out.

I currently run it with an old XP computer, using Autocad 98, Vectric Cut2d, and Mach3.

I have access to Solid works, Aspire also, but I just don't do much 3d work.

However, my machine can handle that quite well using VCARVE PRO.

OH, I forgot, the price of this machine ??? $2200 with shipping from Bejing at about $200
shipped via FEDEX direct to my drive way in about 10 days !

You can check it out at CARVING-CNC Model 6040Z-S80.

They have a newer, slightly bigger model the seems well received by CNC ZONE users.

Good Luck on your search.

Charles in Texas


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## livetosculpt (Mar 26, 2014)

Do you think that the probotix is as solid as the Camaster or the Tigertec machines? Resolution and repeatability is important in my work.


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## livetosculpt (Mar 26, 2014)

Can the Probotix be used with a spindle instead of a router?


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## Runningwild (Apr 12, 2014)

I too have being looking into getting CNC router. Best out there that i have found so far is XZERO CNC . Most of the machines mentioned in thread are plastic or have skate bearing


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## 4DThinker (Feb 16, 2014)

livetosculpt said:


> Do you think that the probotix is as solid as the Camaster or the Tigertec machines? Resolution and repeatability is important in my work.


If you compare models of the same size, then the Probotix Meteor should handle anything the Tigertex TR-204 can. And yes, you can install a spindle on the Meteor. Let Probotix know what diameter the motor is and they may already have a clamp the size you need. The Camaster Stingers may be a little stiffer. You'll pay double or more to find out. 

I've found the folks at Probotix will work with customers to create slight variations of their products. a 36" wide Meteor is one alternative I've seen at least twice. If you wanted 3/4" thick uprights (instead of 1/2") or a double horizontal beam on your gantry I suspect they would gladly make one that way for you.


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## livetosculpt (Mar 26, 2014)

Do you think the Probotix is as stiff as the XZERO? I'm probably going to pick one of those two.


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## 4DThinker (Feb 16, 2014)

livetosculpt said:


> Do you think the Probotix is as stiff as the XZERO? I'm probably going to pick one of those two.


What I like about the Probotix CNCs is that they use two Y motors. This keeps the area under the cutter clear, and all sorts of potential lives there. I have my own Meteor, and have another coming for the college furniture shop I teach in. The college one will get mounted on a topless table. We have the rotary axis they sell coming with it. I plan on cutting the MDF top in two so we can remove one half easily. I'll be mounting a second 60x30 T-slot bar under the center edge so we can mount boards vertically to cut joinery on the ends. I'm also considering a gimbal mount to rotate one half up so we can cut slots at an angle.

The XZero looks like it would be stiffer, but so far I haven't seen any flex in my Meteor.


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