# pantorouter made from steel



## samurai (Aug 14, 2011)

hi everybody greetings from india.i just finished pantorouter the plans from matthias wandel.
after all this machine is based on router so thought i should post the pictures on this site.please have a look on my project.hope you would like it.if you have any question please feel free to ask 









side pose of pantorouter









front side of pantorouter









template setting for mortise same like leigh fmt jigs









template setting for tenons









counter springs to make pantorouter light, different than the origional idea from woodgears.ca









then finally welding and drilling jig for pantograph mechanism to keep it precise and allign









i used turn pipe from scrap and put inside solid piece of steel same outer dia as router body and centered it 6mm


















and put inside my welding and drilliing jig


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## rwl7532 (Sep 8, 2011)

Any pictures of something made with the device?
Thanks for posting.


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## samurai (Aug 14, 2011)

rwl7532 said:


> Any pictures of something made with the device?
> Thanks for posting.


i have uploaded video on youtube but i m not allowed to post this link untill i reach 10 post 
so please search on youtube Pantorouter made from steel my username is hillpanther on youtube


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## kp91 (Sep 10, 2004)

Neat project, Matthias would be proud!

thank you for sharing,


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Pantorouter made from steel - YouTube

Great tool for making a fence out of 2 x 4 stock, the fence company's would love it for making stockade fences..

By the way are using a 1/2" drill bit ?


http://www.routerforums.com/267337-post25.html
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## ggom20 (Feb 1, 2012)

Hello!

Well done !

Strong construction.

Last week I have first discovered this pantorouter from Matthias Wandel

Pantorouter

Looking for ways to ease operations like tenon, mortice and dovetailing.

I like it at first, but at second thought, did wonder Why shall i get bothered

About making models for this machine 2 times bigger than actual size of my project...

A lot easier would be to make models at real scale.

So what about a simple 1/1 scale copying pantograph ?

Its only a matter of placing a sensing finger same size than cuttter size.

Seen some made of wood that are made to copy sculptures, i think they could 

also copy tenons , mortice, dovetails.

Regards

Gerard


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## samurai (Aug 14, 2011)

Thanx bobj3!! i m using12mm hitachi hss endmill which is good for tenon but for mortising it's not really good.in the video you can see i m taking almost double time to mortising compare to tenon.i m sure if i will use upcut spiral router bit result wouldbe totally different.i do have leigh carbide upcut spiral bit but it's 1/2 inch shank but my hitachi router has 12mm colt.could you please suggest my any extra long 12mm plunge cut router bit?i mean 75mm cutting lenth.
thanx in advance


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## ggom20 (Feb 1, 2012)

Hello!
Those cutters looks very difficult to find, i' m looking too for long ones
The biggest i have bought is a 50mm deep from Trend and it's a straight 1/2" bit.
-Could you tell me where to find some long ones like 75 mm ?
-About your problem, I suggest you buy a 1/2" collet for that motor so you will
have more choice for your cutters.

My router is a Metabo OFE 1812 comming with metric 12mm, I just bought a 1/2" and a 8mm collet made for Dewalt 625 And they fits perfectly.

It was quite difficult to find information about collets compatibility, and i don't remember
Where i found it out, but it looks like professional big routers use same standart for collets.

Metabo OFE18102= Dewalt625 = trend t11 = Old Big Elu MOF ??

Regards

Gerard


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## samurai (Aug 14, 2011)

ggom20 said:


> Hello!
> Those cutters looks very difficult to find, i' m looking too for long ones
> The biggest i have bought is a 50mm deep from Trend and it's a straight 1/2" bit.
> -Could you tell me where to find some long ones like 75 mm ?
> ...


i m really sorry ggom20 that i don't know which router bit you can use.because i have used end mill in the video you can see which is not good for plunge route when i made mortise with endmill i had to use very little feed everytime,iwhen i used long feed rate my endmill start shaking and i feel its gonna be broken but if you will use spiral upcut bit you don't need to worry about this problem but as you know plunge router
maximum plunge is 65mm so i don't think it will help you.


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## ggom20 (Feb 1, 2012)

hello! 
Thank you for the care you took to give me this answer.
You are right, an upcut spiral cutter should do better.
Unfortunatly, i was not able to find one except asking for a special make.
Some manufacturers could make it from solid carbide but I did not even ask.
As I am very sure it would bee a bit too expensive for me.

For my specific problem of finding cutters, I started a new thread, as it is a specific
problem to me, having soon to make gig mortices:

http://www.routerforums.com/router-bits-types-usage/33676-cutter-deep-mortice.html

You can see there I ordered a 1/2" diameter 3 "" cutter, hope it will be a good tool.

The plunge router for this job is a Metabo OFE1812 (discontinued type) and has a plunge

capacity of 82mm so a 3"" (75mm) cutter will fit.

Nowadays there is an other router that plunges 80mm: the trend T11.

I think your construction of pantorouter is a great tool and that I may be able to build
something similar, using my plunge router or an other motor to move the bit.
So, like for you, plunge distance wouldl not be a problem anymore.

Traditional Japanese house building uses dovetailing in large woods like 120mmx120mm,
the use of a router or milling machine would help a lot making those nice joinery.
I keep thinking of it and of milling machines for making a better job.


Just a last thing: the cutter I ordered is no spiral, then the same problem will affect
my work: the mortice will be full of dust. I will try my air compressor with a thin copper 
pipe to blow air in the mortice. At 6 Bars pressure it blows quite a lot.

I hope things go well for you and that you find good solutions for your works.

Regards
Gérard


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## samurai (Aug 14, 2011)

you have found very nice bit for deep morticing.i will also give order for this one from amana.thanx for sharing the link 
about pantorouter, it's really nice jig which every shop should have.it's very light and small so you can transport anywhere in the car even.you can make dovetail, finger joint and other japanese joinery.well right now i m in himalayas and next week going back to japan.after it i will share my more experience of pantorouter.


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## ggom20 (Feb 1, 2012)

Hello!

Thanks for your reply.

Yes this pantorouter is very interesting!

One other french guy wants to cut dovetails for house building,
As i think it is good to share informations, I sended him link to your 
pantorouter made of steel.

His thead about dovetailling is this one:
http://www.routerforums.com/router-bits-types-usage/33033-dovetail-bit-house-building.html

Been interested to by this Arunda system, but its way to expensive. 
And not as safe as the pantorouter.

About japanese joinery, I' m reading this book:

Complete Japanese Joinery: A Handbook of Japanese Tool Use and Woodworking for Joiners and Carpenters : Yasuo Nakahara : Livres anglais et étrangers

And I have a question that you might know the answer,but if you Have not
enought time to answer now it is not a problem. One has got so many things to 
do and so litle time...

In case of japanese made joinery for perpendicular beams, 
it looks like the dovetails have a 1/4 ratio, is that right ?
This book is not really clear about ratios.
Its unusual in cabinet making, but might bee stronger than a 1/6.

By the way ,I started a theorical study about dovetailing strength and optimisation
of joinery, and i will soon start a new thread about it.

Regards.
Gérard


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi

Just one more bit that may work it's 10" long  I have some of them are they do cut well and deep if needed..and the price is not to bad.

JessEm Replacement Zip Slot Drill Bit, 1/2 inch: Amazon.com: Home Improvement

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## ggom20 (Feb 1, 2012)

hi bobj3!

Seen that thanks, but way to small.


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## gav (Oct 12, 2009)

10 inches/25.4 cm is too small !!?

I don't think you can get longer than that.


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## ggom20 (Feb 1, 2012)

*a few mistakes and a bit of clarifications*

hello gav!

Thanks for your visit did you get the router you where showing pict?
"What router is this"
(please answer about this on your original thread about that router.) 
http://www.routerforums.com/general-routing/33351-what-router.html

Yes way to small !

The router bit I'm talking and what samurai is also talking of has to be a long bit
for deep mortice and also for a long mortice.
I need making mortices 4 inches deep and 3 inches long.
The width will be 1 and 1/2 inch or say about 30mm.
So the bit will have to be fairly long.
Maybe a 1/2" bit could not be longer than 3" , cause of breaking issues.
If you know about those bits for deep mortice,you may go posting here: 
http://www.routerforums.com/router-bits-types-usage/33676-cutter-deep-mortice.html


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## ggom20 (Feb 1, 2012)

To samurai:

3" long for a 1/2" dia seems to be the limit.

The bit might brake easy at this lenght...

So another way is to go bigger diameters.
Titman Tip Tools :: The best in router tooling, Products and applications for the woodworking industry
Today founded this about straight cutters and they make spiral ones:
http://www.titman.co.uk/pdfs/2009/P125_144_CNC-Tooling.pdf

ref: Smc20105-2r
It is a 20mm dia 2 flute, cutting 105mm total lenght 165 mm upcut spiral solid carbide.
Price is also heavy, but they also got smaller ones.
They also have many other things and make custom bits on demand.

It also requires a 20 mm collet motor quite a bit out of range for a normal router.
Don' t know how to use such a bit. (Except in metal-mill)
But most metal mills turn to slow.
Just in case...

And it will make me look for a 2400w 15000rpm motor with a 20mm collet.

Anyway when you will be back in Japan , you will be in the country where some
know about making things that cut sharp. Never seen something cutting better
than japanese chisels, difficult to sharpen at first but then it's a pleasure.
You may find things closer than USA or UK made cutters...

Regards.
Gérard


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

1 pc 1/2" SH 3" Blade Extra Long Straight Router Bit | eBay

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## samurai (Aug 14, 2011)

sorry bobj3!! this router bit can't be use for mortising because the cutting bits from upside not touch each other.or there should be atleast center cutting blade(please check the [picture on ebay link).so this router bit is not suitable for deep mortising but it can use for slot cutting for sure but you must need to make hole for it's starting point.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Sam

True it's not a true plunge router bit But if the bit is turning at 20,000 rpm it will plunge down it can't be used like a drill bit true but I have use many router bits of that type and they will plunge down most of the time doing mortising the bit is moving down and to the side at the same time it just needs to move the chips out of it's way to cut a deep slot  it may take a extra pass to clean out the bottom of the slot but it can do the job easy. 


MLCS Plunge Cutting Straight Router Bits
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samurai said:


> sorry bobj3!! this router bit can't be use for mortising because the cutting bits from upside not touch each other.or there should be atleast center cutting blade(please check the [picture on ebay link).so this router bit is not suitable for deep mortising but it can use for slot cutting for sure but you must need to make hole for it's starting point.


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## ggom20 (Feb 1, 2012)

Hello!

To boj3:
Been visiting this ebay shop, that you told us about:
1 pc 1/2" SH 3" Blade Extra Long Straight Router Bit | eBay

Did you use this made of cutters? they are quite cheap, do they last?
I have had issues with economical cutters , like breaking the bit at collet level. 
Then it becomes air-borne and its a bit dangerous. 

Samurai is right when saying it wont got down well , especially in hard woods.
I want use it in a 3x3 " (75mm x 75 mm) or 4" x 4" (100mm x 100mm) oak square beams.


To Samurai:

- Just been checking this issue on toolstoday web site.

Straight Plunge Cutting Router Bits - Toolstoday.com - Industrial Quality Carbide Tipped Router Bits

Its difficult to see much.
but i think there will be this same problem of cutters not cutting at center.
They make special serials cutting at center but did' nt find any long ones..
So if you can wait for when I will get this one, I will test it in a bit of oak.

Regards


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Gerard

Yes,, I have had good luck with his bits just like 18,438 other users of his bits,see his feed back ( 99.9% Positive feedback ) that's hard to do on eBay..I must have over 200 of his bits and Not one dud,but to each his own, I can show you the water but I can't make you drink,so they say..I like to think I do my homework b/4 I pull the bucks out of my pocket for router bits. 

Just a note ,,here's one more that has FREE shipping and he states to anywhere,note the name of the bits they are the same bits as the other link and Many,Many,buy from that Mfg. world wide ( Yonico ) i.e. sommerfeld tools router bits for just one of MANY,,but I'm not 100 % sure of that but they sure look the same, but just a little bit darker yellow to get to the CMT color I think that he once sold, but some of bits are the bright yellow also once you have one in your hand.
Sommerfeld's Tools For Wood

with 100% Positive feedback ▼Ships to: Worldwide
yonico | eBay

Just one more note,, he also list the router table that Grizzly is now moving at a great price and one that MLCS is moving also..
But no free shipping on that item..from him

T10432 Router Table with Stand

So to say the BIG boys are getting some real deals from Yonico,and Grizzly knows if you buy the table you just may buy some router bits also and other items ..Smart...

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ggom20 said:


> Hello!
> 
> To boj3:
> Been visiting this ebay shop, that you told us about:
> ...


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## ggom20 (Feb 1, 2012)

Hello!
Bobj3

You showed me the water.

Thank you for your links, it will take time to me to check all this
The pricing is interesting , i' ll give it a try for my next cutters order. 

Now i 'll go to work

Regards.
Gerard


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## samurai (Aug 14, 2011)

ggom20 said:


> Hello!
> Bobj3
> 
> You showed me the water.
> ...


hi gerard!! have you bought router bit suggest by bobj3? if yes please tell me how it's working


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## ggom20 (Feb 1, 2012)

hello samurai !
No didn' t try any bits from Bobj3 links.
I'' have been looking at them and they seems like not having center cutting , no way.
But witch link was it? so many links provided by bobj....

Still waiting for ordered bit prom toolstoday. 10 Days now
Straight Plunge Cutting Router Bits - Toolstoday.com - Industrial Quality Carbide Tipped Router Bits

Will tell you what it looks like.

Regards


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## samurai (Aug 14, 2011)

good luck with your purchase.waiting for feedback


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## samurai (Aug 14, 2011)

hi guys i have just upload HD video on youtube of my steel pantorouter.i was in himalayas so couldn't upload HD video.so please have a look.hope you would like it.
Demonstrating steel pantorouter making mortise and tenon joint(HD) - YouTube


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## ggom20 (Feb 1, 2012)

Hello Samurai got the bit 1 hour ago.
There is no carbide at center.
Some other cutters does from the previous serial of links.

But difficult to remenber witch did and what price.
I think you will find the best cutter for you here:

http://www.routerforums.com/router-bits-types-usage/33676-cutter-deep-mortice-2.html#post270904

The new cuuter's quality looks like the trade quality from Trend , except its not painted,

The edges are very sharp, cutting angles good.
Tested plunging 80mm in oak did a clean hole.
Got to make jigs now with use of guide-bush.
I' will have to drill corner holes on collumn drill to get throught 4" (100mm) 
so i don' t care much about it does or not plunge well.

I'll have a look at your video later, my linux doen' t read those.
Picts of Amana cutter today, before use. 

Regards


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## samurai (Aug 14, 2011)

looks like nice and sharp edge even on the front view.why don't you make pantorouter.its really fun machine.


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## ggom20 (Feb 1, 2012)

Hello samurai 

Pantorouter made of steel is great!
I d like to use it but not enought time now to start one.
And all the steelworks i can do is outside under the rain and weather
is still bad here those days..
I Keep working wood indoors most of the time.
waiting for springtime.

Regards.


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## ggom20 (Feb 1, 2012)

samurai said:


> looks like nice and sharp edge even on the front view.why don't you make pantorouter.its really fun machine.


hello!

Picture is nice but there is no carbide at center!
The steel will worn out a bit quickly and then plunging will not be so easy as today.
Its not helicoidal and will not take out chips from a mortice.
IMHO: At the speed you use pantorouter for mortice, you better check for
a center with carbide.

Maybe Have a look at :
http://www.titman.co.uk/pdfs/2009/P6_13_Straights.pdf

Regards


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## samurai (Aug 14, 2011)

ohh!! then i should buy kerv straight plunge router bit.just found on one japanese website.please have a look KERV ストレートビット 2枚刃 (プランジ刃付)｜KERV ルータービット｜ルータービット｜オフ・コーポレイション Web Shop
it has 63.5mm cutting blade and overall lenth is 104mm.its specially for plunge routing.check part number K105-2460


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## ggom20 (Feb 1, 2012)

Hello
Well, i am afraid i don t read Japanese, sorry.
But the picture is not showing a carbide center.
I' sure Titman has got what you need it's a range of cutter made of 
probuction machinery in Factories using milling machines.
Exactly like the speed you can get with your pantorouter.

At least timan's give an idea of what to look for, its 2 to 3 times more expensive
but the right quality level for heavy cutting.

I am very happy with my japanese chisels "oire nomi ", they cost 3 times the price of the
Professional grade european chisels, but razor cuts and keeps a good edge.
They where a bit long to first sharpen, but are my best weapon for cutting wood.
Even my German two-cherries chisels are far beyond .
It' s possible to sharpen any chisel, but some will keep a cutting edge.

Regards


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## ggom20 (Feb 1, 2012)

Hello!
Google translated me (stangely) japanese web page.
It says it' s plunging.
part number K105-2460 shank 12mm cut 12mm cut 63mm fitting 38mm in collet

But it will not cut morethan 63mm depht.
Titman'n got 2 special long bits with cutting end only problem is collet 1/2"
my router was sold with 12mm metric but I bought collets 1/2 and 8mm for getting 
more choice with cutters.

Titmans cutters:

LH58L cut dia 5/8 cut lenght; 1.1/4 cut depht 3" total lenght 121mm– – – £30.00
And a very big one not for router but could fit pantorouter:
LH58L2 cut dia 5/8 cut lenght: 2" cut deph 6" total lenght 194mm – – – £42.00
In my humble Opinion,If Having a pantorouter I would change collet for 1/2" and
use the LH58L2 .

Regards


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## samurai (Aug 14, 2011)

i have just finised my new hybrid pantorouter with more advance function.it can cut tenon and mortise with single template and very easy setup for template. please have a look this video hope you guys would like it how my hybrid pantorouter works - YouTube


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## ggom20 (Feb 1, 2012)

Hello Samurai !

Nice and clean, is that massive aluminium alloy on the big lever ?


There commes my Humble comments:

One thing I noticed is a lack of safety:

At 4 minutes and 30 seconds, your right hand is not far from this super-sharp rotating cutter !

I think a good improvement would be to define a stop and rest position for cutter
in a lower situation, it would be out of the way and acces protected by some wooden assembly.

I Could make a drawing, if geometry of your pantorouter is still the same as
orinal pantorouter.

Regards.

Gérard.


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## samurai (Aug 14, 2011)

actually my hand is far away from the router bit,it just because of angle of camera looks like this way and i already switch off router.anyway i m going to install a new switch to on off router motor.
well that lever ius made from 12x102x490mm aluminium.i like aluminium for the lever.last time i use steel square pipe and then i welding 6mm inner dia bush on the pipe.but i had very hard time to keep it allign as welding deform that bushing.but aluminium is light so i can make hole inside the plate and it will never have allignment issue.


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## ggom20 (Feb 1, 2012)

Hello!

Very good construction.
IMHO:

About safety:
Could be camera angle. 
But cutter still turning.

Was a litle frightening.
When I will make my pantorouter, I will simply install a piece of oak for rest
position of the cutter, by comimg back to it's rest-place,
the bit shoud cut his way in the oak.
And make a place where my hand could not reach it.

Got all my fingers and never had an accident, but one of my best friend
had to go to hospital with a finger kept in a bag with ice.
That was with circular saw big 12" panel model.
Witch I do use to.

Regards.

Gérard


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## samurai (Aug 14, 2011)

hi everybody!! i just upload a new video of my hybrid pantorouter showing the easiest way to make mortise and tenon with one template.i have put some extra effort to make fastest and easiest template setting so you can"t go wrong.please have look at my video fast template setting for hybrid pantorouter - YouTube
sorry for my poor english in video but you can understand what i m saying


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