# Cleaning bits with Ethylene Glycol



## zfooking (Mar 22, 2015)

Requesting opinions on cleaning router bits using ethylene glycol. I watched this YouTube video on the subject of cleaning various metal parts which included bits...

"Cleaning With Ethylene Glycol - Engine Parts, Router Bits, Carbide Sanding Drums" posted by Ronald Walters 

Since I am not yet permitted to post URLs, anyone who wishes to watch the video will have to do a YouTube search. 

Any feedback would be appreciated.


----------



## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Hey, Charlie; welcome!
The prevailing wisdom around here is to use cleaners developed specifically for Carbide.
Other commonly recommended solutions may or may not have negative impact on either or both the Carbide or the brazing.
I had been using Simple Green on my blades and bits, until an e-mail to the company brought back the answer that they _didn't recommend soaking Carbide in it_.
Instead, they suggested using their Simple Green Aircraft Cleaner. Who knew, eh?

Stick with the bit manufactures' approved cleaners. 
Also...do not get the bearings really wet with any cleaner; just wipe them down with a cleaner dampened rag. The solutions will ruin the internal lubrication.


----------



## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

zfooking said:


> Requesting opinions on cleaning router bits using ethylene glycol.


Hi Charlie and welcome!

The main thing I'd say is "toxicity". From a COSHH sheet (UK *C*ontrol *o*f *S*ubstances *H*azardous to *H*ealth): _"Ethylene glycol is chemically broken down in the body into toxic compounds. It and its' toxic byproducts first affect the central nervous system, then the heart, and finally the kidneys. Ingestion of sufficient amounts can be fatal."_. Ethylene glycol vapour may also cause eye and respiratory tract irritation. It is combustible and should never be disposed of by dumping into water courses (or down the drain) or in land fill 

That makes it a dangerous product to have wherever you have kids or animals, such as a domestic setting (cats and dogs have died from ingesting anti-freeze which contains a percentage of ethylene glycol) although I do know that it is used in secondary schools during dissection as a safer alternative to formaldehyde.

Regards

Phil


----------



## MT Stringer (Aug 15, 2012)

I haven't used it to clean anything except for the inside of my engine. 

Back in the early 70's, I worked at a "canning plant". One of the products we produced was antifreeze for different companies such as Peak, and several others (I forget which).

Ethylene Glycol is the base. It would come to us by barge and it would be offloaded and trucked to the plant.

I would make a 2000 gallon batch by using some of the glycol, and added other ingredients of the specific recipe supplied by the company. That would include phosphoric acid, caustic soda, and a little bit of powdred dye. Whew! That stuff would go a looong way.

Mix this batch for a hour or so, then pump it into a tank with 20,000 gallons of Ethylene Glycol and turn the mixer on. :yes4:


----------



## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

I personally like Trend's Bit and Blade Cleaner. It does an excellent job and has no harmful chemicals that I know of. This has come up before and I did some reading on it and the one substance that is absolutely for sure bad for carbide is peroxide. It will dissolve it. CMT also makes a bit cleaner and the one Dan quoted are all safe so there really isn't a good reason to use something toxic like antifreeze or lye.


----------



## RMIGHTY1 (Nov 5, 2014)

++ Phil & Mike. Not only toxic to pets but cats are actually attracted to it, not to mention its human toxicity. Like Mike, I also worked on anti-freeze production and it is pretty much 99% ethylene glycol with 1% residuals including dye for coloring. Avoid it.


----------



## zfooking (Mar 22, 2015)

Thank you for your replies. I appreciate it. 

I didn't have any plans to use ethylene glycol to clean anything but I was curious about this application and I just figured some of you folks on here would have some good input. I was not disappointed. Thanks again.


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

cherryville chuck said:


> i personally like trend's bit and blade cleaner. It does an excellent job and has no harmful chemicals that i know of. This has come up before and i did some reading on it and the one substance that is absolutely for sure bad for carbide is peroxide. It will dissolve it. Cmt also makes a bit cleaner and the one dan quoted are all safe so there really isn't a good reason to use something toxic like antifreeze or lye.


hear!!! Hear!!!!


----------



## PhilBa (Sep 25, 2014)

Timely topic for me. I had about 5 saw blades and several router bits that need a cleaning after building a number of storage boxes out of knotty pine. I had heard a lot about Simple Green Aircraft Cleaner which Simple Green Corp recommends for cleaning carbide. Simple Green sells the same stuff as "Simple Green Pro HD" (it's purple, go figure). So, today I picked up a half gallon at Home Depot for like $12.

I poured it straight onto the blades and bits, then scrubbed with a toothbrush and a brass brush on the stubborn parts. SGProHD is amazing stuff. As I was pouring it on the saw, it was lifting the tar off and turning brown. It took very little scrubbing and my blades are sparkling clean. Total time per blade was less than 10 minutes including prep and drying and about half of that was just letting it stand with the SGProHD. I think I used about $.10 worth per blade. By the way, this stuff also lifted sharpie writing on the blades.

So, to the original question - use something like SGProHD instead of Ethylene Glycol. It's biodegradable and non-toxic. EG is very bad because dogs really like it, can sniff it out, will drink it up and die. When I was a kid I knew some one who's dad was flushing his radiator and their dog got into the antifreeze - knocked over an open bottle and licked it up. Poor mutt died in agony.


----------



## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

If I'm not sure when I see water lying under an engine whether it might be leaking coolant I touch my finger to the puddle and then the tip of my finger to my tongue. If it tastes sweet then I have a coolant leak and that is why it's so dangerous around pets and small children. You should also keep in mind that chemicals like this are often absorbed through the skin. Topping up your rad once in a while is no big deal but doing something like cleaning blades and bits with it might be too much exposure.


----------



## greenacres2 (Dec 23, 2011)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> I personally like Trend's Bit and Blade Cleaner. It does an excellent job and has no harmful chemicals that I know of. This has come up before and I did some reading on it and the one substance that is absolutely for sure bad for carbide is peroxide. It will dissolve it. CMT also makes a bit cleaner and the one Dan quoted are all safe so there really isn't a good reason to use something toxic like antifreeze or lye.


+1 on the Trend product, and especially on using something formulated for the purpose. I routinely (like a lot) clean my saw blades and router bits--and haven't gone through half a $10 container in 2 years. While there are a myriad of "home brews" and alternatives, i can't see the few pennies potentially saved as worth either the effort or the risk.

earl


----------



## Shop guy (Nov 22, 2012)

Anti-freeze has also been used as a poison to commit murder in several instances in the last few years. We recently had 2 members of the same family murdered that way in the area.


----------



## RMIGHTY1 (Nov 5, 2014)

Shop guy said:


> Anti-freeze has also been used as a poison to commit murder in several instances in the last few years. We recently had 2 members of the same family murdered that way in the area.


YIKES!!!  Reminds me of the movie, "Arsenic And Old Lace."


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

RMIGHTY1 said:


> YIKES!!!  Reminds me of the movie, "Arsenic And Old Lace."


makes ya wonder how and why some of this stuff is dreamt up w/o even thinking things through...
and now that the word is out ''well I saw it on YT''' ....


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

A little reading...


----------



## RMIGHTY1 (Nov 5, 2014)

*"11. TOXICOLOGICAL INFORMATION"​*

*"Mutagenicity (The Effects on Genetic Material): In vitro mutagenicity studies were negative. Animal mutagenicity studies were negative."*

Well yea! After ingesting 3 oz. of ethylene glycol, don't think you'll have to worry about passing it on genetically to your offspring. :fie: ... lol


----------



## old55 (Aug 11, 2013)

Welcome to the forum.


----------



## wormil (Sep 6, 2012)

I use citrus degreaser. Spritz it on, wait 30 seconds and wipe the gunk off. If it's really bad then wait 60 seconds and use a toothbrush.

- Rick M, sent via Tapatalk


----------



## rbs (Jan 6, 2009)

I have been using Simple Green but will be ordering some Trend. Thanks for the post


----------



## PhilBa (Sep 25, 2014)

rbs said:


> I have been using Simple Green but will be ordering some Trend. Thanks for the post


The Simple Green Corp says that the green stuff is bad for carbide. They recommend their Aircraft cleaner (aka Pro HD - purple). As I posted earlier, it works really well.


----------



## N'awlins77 (Feb 25, 2011)

Another vote for Trend. Good stuff!!


----------



## phillipsted (Sep 26, 2014)

Another vote for the Trend solution. However, keep in mind that it is likely 90%+ petroleum distillate (e.g., naptha, toluene, xylene) - which can be bought much more cheaply in a "generic" gallon can.

TedP


----------



## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

...and all carcinogens. Nitrile gloves and a lot of fresh air.
(Hasn't stopped me from using them; just made me a lot more cautious!)


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

phillipsted said:


> Another vote for the Trend solution. However, keep in mind that it is likely 90%+ petroleum distillate (e.g., naptha, toluene, xylene) - which can be bought much more cheaply in a "generic" gallon can.
> 
> TedP


an MSDS for the cleaner would solve that...


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

found it...


----------



## PhilBa (Sep 25, 2014)

For what it's worth, here's the MSDS for Simple Green Pro HD

From the MSDS:
Eye Contact: Mildly irritating.
Skin Contact: No adverse effects expected under typical use conditions. Prolonged exposure may cause dryness. 
Ingestion: May cause stomach or intestinal irritation if swallowed.
Inhalation: No adverse effects expected under typical use conditions. Adequate ventilation should be present for prolonged usage in small enclosed areas.
Medical Conditions Aggravated by Exposure: Dermally sensitive users may experience dry skin.
Target Organs: Unknown.
Environmental Effects: Unknown.
Chemically sensitive individuals may experience mild irritation.


----------



## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Good info, guys! Thanks for that.


----------



## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

I've been using CMT in a spray bottle...couple of spritzes...typically just need to wipe it off...

Really good on blades after oily or sappy woods...


----------



## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Stick486 said:


> found it...


Thanks Stick. It can't have any benzene, toluene, etc in it as all those products are carcinogenic. It really is pretty benign stuff. At Ph 9.2 it's mildly alkaline so prolonged contact could result in contact dermatitis in some people and you wouldn't want it in your eyes. I feel even better about using it after reading that.


----------



## IC31 (Nov 16, 2012)

I just think back years ago when we just opened a car's radiator drain and dumped ethylene glycol based ('Prestone') on the driveway, either at home or at the local gas station/garage. I wonder how many cats and dogs went to their maker with that inattention as we just didn't know any better. 

Curiosity - wonder what makes the regular Simple Green bad for carbide while the aircraft stuff isn't a problem. The regular stuff is pretty benign though it does a good job of keeping the shop floor under my street rod that has a minor transmission leak (it is a breathing irritant for me though).


----------



## PhilBa (Sep 25, 2014)

Supposedly something in the Green version leaches the cobalt binder and thus affects the structure integrity of the carbide. I am just repeating something I read (but don't recall where) - could be god's own truth or unadulterated feces. All I know is the ProHD works really well and supposedly doesn't harm the carbide.


----------



## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Phil; it was here. I posted the contents of an e-mail I received back from Simple Green inquiring about this carbide issue.
It'll be in the archives somewhere. Maybe since the New Year?
I think you summed up the gist of the S.G. reply pretty well. I seem to remember it having something to do Hydrogen maybe?
In any case, yes, the Aircraft Cleaner version is problem free.
The other thing they mentioned in that e-mail, was that I'd have to add my own rust inhibitor if i needed that characteristic. But they did say there wasn't any problem adding it to the cleaner.


----------



## PhilBa (Sep 25, 2014)

Thanks Dan.


----------



## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Maybe the standard SG has some hydrogen peroxide in it. When I was researching this issue a year or so ago I came onto an article that said that peroxide dissolves carbide. 

A couple of years ago when this same issue came up, Mike from Detroit said that he had left a tool with cast iron top out in the rain by accident one night. He tried the Trend on it and said that it took the rust off and was keeping it off over a reasonable period of time (before he got sick and dropped off the forum). One more reason to go with the Trend if the SG doesn't have a rust inhibitor.


----------



## IC31 (Nov 16, 2012)

You folks got me wonderin' so I did a Google:

How is your chemistry? Here are the dozens of Simple Green products listed. I have never seen anything but their All Purpose Cleaner. Enjoy:dance3: Data Sheets


The basics of S-G All Purpose -

*Water*
7732-18-5
> 84.8%*

*Ethoxylated Alcohol*
68439-46-3
< 5%*

*Sodium Citrate*
68-04-2
< 5%*

*Tetrasodium N,N-bis(carboxymethyl)-L-glutamate*
51981-21-6
< 1%*

*Sodium Carbonate*
497-19-8
< 1%*

*Citric Acid*
77-92-9
< 1%*

*Isothiazolinone mixture*
55965-84-9
< 0.2%*

*Fragrance*

*Proprietary Mixture*
< 1%*

*Colorant*

*Proprietary Mixture*

They don't list an aircraft cleaner on that list but do have a motorsports and marine version. It's a 'separate' entity called Extreme Simple Green Aircraft and Precision Cleaner --- and that seems kinda nasty and on a separate Industrial list: Material Safety Data Sheets

Dan, I tried to find the referenced email from them and gave up on our site's search engine:fie:


----------



## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Thanks for trying, Dave. I just had all my e-mail moved over onto a new computer and I'm having trouble finding anything, but I'll try again.
And yes, the Aircraft/Precision version is the correct one.
You're probably correct in suggesting it won't be easy to find... 
However, for_ large_ jobs it might be worth the trouble. 
(Soaking a whole chainsaw for example)


----------



## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Here's some info on it...
http://simplegreen.com/pdfs/MSDS_EN-US_ExtremeAircraftPrecision.pdf
Sounds like my overproof Rum is more hazardous to my health.


----------



## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

DaninVan said:


> Sounds like my overproof Rum is more hazardous to my health.


In quantity it certainly is.  I wonder if there is an MSDS on your overproof?


----------



## phillipsted (Sep 26, 2014)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> Thanks Stick. It can't have any benzene, toluene, etc in it as all those products are carcinogenic. It really is pretty benign stuff. At Ph 9.2 it's mildly alkaline so prolonged contact could result in contact dermatitis in some people and you wouldn't want it in your eyes. I feel even better about using it after reading that.



Toluene and Zylene have never been classified as carcinogens and have only moderate levels of toxicity. Used with caution, they usually aren't harmful - unless you concentrate the vapors and inhale them.

Benzene is another story.

TedP


----------



## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Thanks for that, Ted; good to know.
(although I'll still treat Zylene & Toluene especially, with a lot of caution...Xylene: An overview of its health hazards and preventive measures)

"I wonder if there is an MSDS on your overproof?"
The Government (BCLCB) sold it to me so it must be good for me, right?)


----------



## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

DaninVan said:


> Thanks for that, Ted; good to know.
> (although I'll still treat Zylene & Toluene especially, with a lot of caution...Xylene: An overview of its health hazards and preventive measures)
> 
> "I wonder if there is an MSDS on your overproof?"
> The Government (BCLCB) sold it to me so it must be good for me, right?)


Sorry Dan but it means that it is mostly good for them, as in them collecting your tax money.


----------



## IC31 (Nov 16, 2012)

Overproof rum is NEVER hazardous to your health. Years back I spent a couple delightful afternoons at Ponce, Puerto Rico's Don Q distillery (if I recall .. ) testing their 151 stuff and I'm still crusin':yes4:. Or maybe that Union Carbide plant also in Ponce that made Prestone was my downfall.


----------



## Semipro (Mar 22, 2013)

DaninVan said:


> Phil; it was here. I posted the contents of an e-mail I received back from Simple Green inquiring about this carbide issue.
> It'll be in the archives somewhere. Maybe since the New Year?
> I think you summed up the gist of the S.G. reply pretty well. I seem to remember it having something to do Hydrogen maybe?
> In any case, yes, the Aircraft Cleaner version is problem free.
> The other thing they mentioned in that e-mail, was that I'd have to add my own rust inhibitor if i needed that characteristic. But they did say there wasn't any problem adding it to the cleaner.


"But the people at Simple Green say not to use their product..."

No, what they said was to not soak Carbide in Simple Green, but they also said that their industrial Extreme Simple Green was perfect for the job:
Extreme Simple Green

From Simple Green:

Dear Dan,
posted 11/24/2014

Thank you for contacting Simple Green and for your interest in our product.
Extreme Simple Green Aircraft & Precision Cleaner is ideal for soaking carbide blades and tips. The product protects corrosion and hydrogen embrittlement.

I hope that this information helps. If you have further questions about this or other Simple Green products or uses, please feel free to contact me via reply email or directly. My contact information is provided below and my regular business hours are Mon thru Fri from 8 -5 Pacific Standard Time.

Thank you again for your inquiry.

Sincerely,
Theresa Provolt
Customer Service and Business Support Manager
Sunshine Makers, Inc./ Simple Green

15922 Pacific Coast Highway
Huntington Beach, CA 92649

562-795-6091


----------



## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Yes!! Thank you John!!! You da man... 
I just couldn't find the darn thing.

I think the rust inhibitor info was in a follow up question I had for her.
I wanted to use it with my engine washer wand to clean up some equipment, but I realized it was going to drive the solution into every nook and cranny; a recipe for rust if it wasn't inhibited. Clean but rusty wasn't what I had in mind.


----------



## achoox4 (Nov 9, 2012)

For soaking bits, should the Simple Green Pro HD (purple) cleaner be diluted at all? There are various dilution ratios on the jug for different purposes, none of which relate to the purpose at hand. I'm sure it already contains some water as it is, but I'm hesitant to add water to something that I'm going to park bits in for some time, and hope to let air dry afterwards.
How is it usually done? I'm picturing using a cup not much bigger than the bit, and using it full-strength - right?


----------



## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Benedikt; it's probably more about the economics than anything. If you're going to let them air dry, keep in mind what I said about it _not_ being rust inhibited!
Send Theresa Provost an e-mail and ask her advice. She's very helpful.
https://secure.simplegreen.com/ind_contact_us.php
While you've got her, ask her again about adding the 3rd party rust inhibitor.


----------



## achoox4 (Nov 9, 2012)

I understood that the purple Pro HD is identical (enough) to the harder-to-get Precision cleaner, doesn't eat carbide, and contains the rust inhibitors that make it the product of choice. 
Did I get that wrong?


----------



## PhilBa (Sep 25, 2014)

achoox4 said:


> For soaking bits, should the Simple Green Pro HD (purple) cleaner be diluted at all? There are various dilution ratios on the jug for different purposes, none of which relate to the purpose at hand. I'm sure it already contains some water as it is, but I'm hesitant to add water to something that I'm going to park bits in for some time, and hope to let air dry afterwards.
> How is it usually done? I'm picturing using a cup not much bigger than the bit, and using it full-strength - right?


Yup, pretty much what you said. I use it straight from the bottle. Soak is for like 10 minutes then scrub followed by a rinse. Repeat for stubborn stuff. I dry them off with a rag and then leave in a warm place for a while. I wouldn't soak for long periods of time. I'm sure there's nothing in it to damage the carbide but why take a chance? Water won't hurt your bits and blades if you dry them off fairly quickly.

By the way, ProHD works great on a grimy barbecue!


----------



## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

No idea what Purple Pro HD is (?)...
Simple Green Family of Industrial Products

The only option Theresa Provost (from Simple Green) recommended, due to testing and certification, was the Aircraft Cleaner. Remember, what the question was 'is it safe to *soak *carbide in it?'
So many other members have recommended the Trend bit cleaner that I'd go that route if there's any difficulty in getting the *S.G. Aircraft & Precision Cleaner*
Extreme Simple Green
I originally went down this 'research' road looking for an engine washing solution that was _rust inhibited_.


----------



## achoox4 (Nov 9, 2012)

PhilBa said:


> Yup, pretty much what you said. I use it straight from the bottle. Soak is for like 10 minutes then scrub followed by a rinse. Repeat for stubborn stuff. I dry them off with a rag and then leave in a warm place for a while. I wouldn't soak for long periods of time. I'm sure there's nothing in it to damage the carbide but why take a chance? Water won't hurt your bits and blades if you dry them off fairly quickly.
> 
> By the way, ProHD works great on a grimy barbecue!


Rinse with water, or rinse with fresh cleaner?


----------



## PhilBa (Sep 25, 2014)

rinse with water then dry it off.
@DaninVan, I believe ProHD is the same as the aircraft cleaner. Here's a picture of it. Not sure why they don't have it on the site.


----------



## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Benedikt; you are absolutely correct! They're identical formulations, except the Purple has added colourant.
I couldn't find it in their listings because they have two categories, Household and Industrial.
Thanks for pointing this out; *HomeDepot carrying it (the Purple HD) makes life a lot simpler. *


----------

