# Drill Chuck Question?



## newbie2wood (Apr 22, 2016)

Not sure if this is allowed, so if inappropriate please remove...

I have a Wen 4210 drill press. I've been using it to polish scroll projects over the past several weeks.

I went to drill some holes with hole saw blades the other day (you may remember the shop vac project with the circle cutting jig), and the chuck kept falling out.

I hammered it back in but after every hole cut, the chuck would fall out.

I was told it might be the bearings, or dirt. I've cleaned the shaft but not the inside. I don't see how bearings could be the problem, but then again I'm not too mechanically inclined.

Does anyone know what else would cause this?

Thanks as always in advance


----------



## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Hi, Jessie; why wouldn't it be allowed?
Just to be clear, the chuck is mounted on a tapered shaft that fits into the quill on the drill press(?).
That would be the normal method but I have no idea how WEN's are designed.
Once the Morse taper is pushed up into the quill, you normally need to insert a special device...sort of a wedge thing...into a hole in the quill to get the Morse taper back out. Falling out might happen if you put a lot of sideways pressure on the chuck. Other than that, hopefully someone else has some thoughts. I think quite a few of the members have WEN drill presses.


----------



## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

What Dan said is correct. My milling machine also has a threaded rod that extends through the quill and screws into the end of the chuck arbor. I don't think there's one on my DP. I think it's just a friction fit. Check for burrs on the chuck arbor and then wipe the inside of the quill out with some solvent to make sure there's no grease or varnish that might have been put in at the factory to prevent corrosion. Then put the chuck in and press down really hard on a board.


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

cherryville chuck said:


> what dan said is correct. My milling machine also has a threaded rod that extends through the quill and screws into the end of the chuck arbor. I don't think there's one on my dp. I think it's just a friction fit. Check for burrs on the chuck arbor and then wipe the inside of the quill out with some solvent to make sure there's no grease or varnish that might have been put in at the factory to prevent corrosion. Then put the chuck in and press down really hard on a board.


careful you don't wash the lubricant out of the jaws


----------



## newbie2wood (Apr 22, 2016)

Thanks all for the responses...



DaninVan said:


> Hi, Jessie; why wouldn't it be allowed?
> Just to be clear, the chuck is mounted on a tapered shaft that fits into the quill on the drill press(?).
> That would be the normal method but I have no idea how WEN's are designed.
> Once the Morse taper is pushed up into the quill, you normally need to insert a special device...sort of a wedge thing...into a hole in the quill to get the Morse taper back out. Falling out might happen if you put a lot of sideways pressure on the chuck. Other than that, hopefully someone else has some thoughts. I think quite a few of the members have WEN drill presses.


Not allowed because it doesn't have to do with Routing in any way. Some forums frown on extra postings not related to the sites main topic so I try to preface off topic posts just in case...

The Wen does not have an insert, screw or anything to hold the chuck in. You simply hammer it in.

Here are the instructions for installing the chuck - hopefully you can read them


https://www.routerforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=382497&thumb=1

Thanks as always in advance


----------



## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

newbie2wood said:


> I have a Wen 4210 drill press. I've been using it to polish scroll projects over the past several weeks.



DaninVan may have hit it on the head...

If you're polishing and using sideways pressure, it might just slip because of the taper and sideways force...


----------



## newbie2wood (Apr 22, 2016)

Nickp said:


> DaninVan may have hit it on the head...
> 
> If you're polishing and using sideways pressure, it might just slip because of the taper and sideways force...


Thanks @Nickp

It happens now when I drill straight down not when I polish


----------



## mgmine (Jan 16, 2012)

I would think that either the quill or the chuck is worn. Given the fact that you would probably never need to put a new chuck on (unless of course the one you have is worn and are willing to pay for a new one) I would put a lot of red Loctite on the quill and hope that solves the problem forever.


----------



## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

"Not allowed because it doesn't have to do with Routing in any way. Some forums frown on extra postings not related to the sites main topic so I try to preface off topic posts just in case..."
-Jessie
When you start a thread (ask a question) you normally would post it under one of the Forum categories that you think is most appropriate for the topic, if you're not sure, just post it in the 'Lobby'.
One of the mods might move it for you, but it's not a big deal.
The Lobby is a freewheeling circus...


----------



## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Stick486 said:


> careful you don't wash the lubricant out of the jaws


Not talking about the chuck but the tapered socket in the quill that the Jacobs or Morse taper fits into.

Questions like this are fine. It's in Tools and Woodworking sub forum which is also good. You usually need other tools besides a router to make things and most of us are tool junkies anyway so we're good with questions like these.


----------



## newbie2wood (Apr 22, 2016)

mgmine said:


> I would think that either the quill or the chuck is worn. Given the fact that you would probably never need to put a new chuck on (unless of course the one you have is worn and are willing to pay for a new one) I would put a lot of red Loctite on the quill and hope that solves the problem forever.


 @mgmine

Thanks but...

Wouldn't that make it permanent and not able to change the chuck if needed?


----------



## Barry747 (Jun 16, 2011)

Nickp said:


> DaninVan may have hit it on the head...
> 
> If you're polishing and using sideways pressure, it might just slip because of the taper and sideways force...


I'm no expert on drill presses although I've had one for years and use it frequently. I have read stories about people using a drill press in such a way that it puts a horizontal or sideways force on the shaft. This is a bending force. Drill presses are designed for downward or a compression force. Too much sideways force (don't know how much that is) for too long (don't know how much that is either) can knock something out of round and turn it into an oval. If that happens you may get a vibration or excessive run out or, possibly, the chuck falling out. If all else fails, you may have to take it to a repair shop. However, doing that might cost more than buying a new drill press. Sorry I can't make any other suggestions.


----------



## newbie2wood (Apr 22, 2016)

Barry747 said:


> I'm no expert on drill presses although I've had one for years and use it frequently. I have read stories about people using a drill press in such a way that it puts a horizontal or sideways force on the shaft. This is a bending force. Drill presses are designed for downward or a compression force. Too much sideways force (don't know how much that is) for too long (don't know how much that is either) can knock something out of round and turn it into an oval. If that happens you may get a vibration or excessive run out or, possibly, the chuck falling out. If all else fails, you may have to take it to a repair shop. However, doing that might cost more than buying a new drill press. Sorry I can't make any other suggestions.


Thanks @Barry747

That's kind of what I'm afraid of as well. I've used it for sanding and polishing and those tasks both put sideways pressure on the shaft. I guess I can check the shaft to see if it is perfectly round or has a high spot?


----------



## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

It is not clear to me if it is the long taper that goes up into the Quilll shaft, or the short taper that goes into the back of the chuck. I have used my drill presses for years as wire brush wheels to brush rust off of metal and as buffing wheels to buff out projects and never had that happen on any of them. 
One note, don't use a hammer to set the chuck, use down pressure against a block of wood.
Just Saying, 
HErb


----------



## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

I've heard of heavy sideways pressure on the quill affecting the bearings as they are designed for downward thrust and and not sideways torque but I haven't heard that affecting the fit of the tapers messing together.


----------



## newbie2wood (Apr 22, 2016)

Herb Stoops said:


> It is not clear to me if it is the long taper that goes up into the Quilll shaft, or the short taper that goes into the back of the chuck. I have used my drill presses for years as wire brush wheels to brush rust off of metal and as buffing wheels to buff out projects and never had that happen on any of them.
> One note, don't use a hammer to set the chuck, use down pressure against a block of wood.
> Just Saying,
> HErb


Yes, I have a block of wood I use as a sacrifice when drilling to hammer it back in.

Someone suggested sanding the shaft slightly. 

Another note is that I used it yesterday to drill some holes in a new project and it was fine. It seems to happen mostly when drilling large holes with hole saw bits.

Thanks all for the the responses, I'm trying all of them


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

don't sand...
polish...


----------



## mgmine (Jan 16, 2012)

newbie2wood said:


> @mgmine
> 
> Thanks but...
> 
> Wouldn't that make it permanent and not able to change the chuck if needed?


No, but with red, you would need to use heat. The question is when is the last time that you replaced a chuck? I have never had to replace one. The only time I've removed them is when I found a drill in the garbage and thought that at some time in the future I could use a chuck. So far it has never happened. If your chuck is worn then this is the time you have to replace it. You could always try a replacement and if that doesn't work then go the Loctite route. You could also replace te quill but how much time and money do you want to spend when you could pick up a used WEN for $50 dollars?


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

mgmine said:


> No, but with red, you would need to use heat. The question is when is the last time that you replaced a chuck? I have never had to replace one.


blue will work just as well as the red but w/o the potential hassles...


----------



## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

Wen Drill presses are fairly new on the market, this should not be happening. I would get a hold of their service dept, maybe the taper is faulty. When I worked in a machine shop we removed the chucks quite often to use larger drill bits with a MT shank to drill metal. I know a person who just bought a wen drill press that removed the chuck and installed a keyless aftermarket chuck, not because the jacops type chuck was faulty,because he liked the keyless better.
Herb


----------



## kp91 (Sep 10, 2004)

newbie2wood said:


> . It seems to happen mostly when drilling large holes with hole saw bits.
> 
> Thanks all for the the responses, I'm trying all of them


Does the hole saw bit chatter? Maybe pulsations are vibrating it loose


----------



## newbie2wood (Apr 22, 2016)

kp91 said:


> Does the hole saw bit chatter? Maybe pulsations are vibrating it loose


It doesn't chatter, but it does stop spinning. Too much pressure I think. After it stops spinning the chuck falls out.


----------



## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

That is why it stopped spinning, the taper lost contact to the Quill. But if that drillpress stalls using a hole saw the the holesaw is too big and the drill press is too under powered. Hole saws take a lot of torque to cut. But the holesaw should stall the drillpress before it comes loose.
HErb


----------



## newbie2wood (Apr 22, 2016)

Herb Stoops said:


> That is why it stopped spinning, the taper lost contact to the Quill. But if that drillpress stalls using a hole saw the the holesaw is too big and the drill press is too under powered. Hole saws take a lot of torque to cut. But the holesaw should stall the drillpress before it comes loose.
> HErb


Which it does!

So if I understand correctly, my drill press is too under powered for hole saw blades?

The drill press is rated @: 120 V, 60 Hz, 3.2A


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

newbie2wood said:


> Which it does!
> 
> So if I understand correctly, my drill press is too under powered for hole saw blades?
> 
> The drill press is rated @: 120 V, 60 Hz, 3.2A


very good chance...


----------



## mgmine (Jan 16, 2012)

3.2 amps is a little light to be making large holes, as a comparison, I have a Black and Decker corded drill with 6 amps. But that is a perfectly fine drill press for just drilling plain holes with normal drill bits.


----------



## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

I have 1hp. on my go to drill press and It will cut 4" diam. holes with a hole saw if I use WD40 on the hole saw blade. If I drill dry it will stick ,get hot and burn badly, and stall the DP.
Herb


----------



## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

So what's the problem, basically? Not enough (if any) set to the teeth on the holesaw? The ones i normally buy are designed for metal cutting, not wood, so there's an inherent design problem from the get-go.
As discussed in the past I usually just use a candle stub or bar of paraffin wax...I don't care about the staining from wax colorant if it's an outdoor project or framing (pipeing holes in joists etc.).


----------



## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

DaninVan said:


> So what's the problem, basically? Not enough (if any) set to the teeth on the holesaw? The ones i normally buy are designed for metal cutting, not wood, so there's an inherent design problem from the get-go.
> As discussed in the past I usually just use a candle stub or bar of paraffin wax...I don't care about the staining from wax colorant if it's an outdoor project or framing (pipeing holes in joists etc.).


I think you are right ,Dan, too many teeth,no place for the sawdust to go. I originally , before holesaws arrived on the scene, used that one that had one adjustable cutter, but it was scary to use. I still have one someplace, I don't use it any more. My dad used it to cut holes in metal .it had a metal lathe cutter bit in it.
Greenly has a line of wood bits that the plumbers use and I had one I used for years,2 1/2" dia, that was mounted on a 2'long shank for drill holes through concrete forms. 
They don't seem to have the individual bits, but kits like hole saws with interchangeable cutters. Note the larger teeth.
Herb


----------



## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

I see the new Millwaukee Hole Saws have spaces cut out in the sides to give the sawdust a place to go.
Herb


----------



## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Following on from your DP chuck and quill diagnosis, Herb, assuming the WEN has the typical stepped pulley drive arrangement, would slowing it down to the lowest speed and maybe using some belt dressing give Jessie more torque at the cutter? ie stop the stalling?


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

DaninVan said:


> Following on from your DP chuck and quill diagnosis, Herb, assuming the WEN has the typical stepped pulley drive arrangement, would slowing it down to the lowest speed and maybe using some belt dressing give Jessie more torque at the cutter? ie stop the stalling?


is it that the motor is stalling and not the chuck???


----------



## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

From what I gather the Chuck is releasing from the quill before the motor stalls, I could be wrong. It shouldn't do that. When everything is said and done, I wouldn't use a hole saw over 1" dia. in that small of a drill press. Forstner bits maybe.
Just saying.
Herb


----------



## gdonham1 (Oct 31, 2011)

I looked up the specs for the Wen 4210 drill press and it has a JT33 Spindle taper. All tapered recesses must be clean and free of oil. If you have a shotgun cleaning brass brush remove the chuck and clean the recess out and then use a clean paper towel to clean out the taper. Then look at your chuck and clean the shaft up and if it is at all rough smooth it with 1000 grit paper. Do not use lower grit paper because you want a smooth surface. I had Ryobi 10 drill press that I put a keyless chuck in and it would fall out. So I loosened up the head and swung it away from the base with the base clamped and put the chuck in with the 3 wings that hold the bit all the way up inside the chuck. Then I took a piece of 2x4 and gave the bottom of the chuck several good wacks with a large sledge. The reason I rotated the head around was so I could get a good swing. Bit first the taper must be clean and oil free and the chuck must be clean and oil free. This should fix your problem unless the taper is scared up and/or the chuck by spinning. With any taper, morse taper or Jacobs Taper, it is a friction fit.


----------



## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Here are the alternatives...
Self feeding bits.
https://www.irwin.com/tools/drill-bits/weldtec-self-feed-bits
https://www.milwaukeetool.com/Products/Accessories/Wood-Drilling/Standard-Selfeed-Bits
48-25-4125
4-1/8"

I didn't see a simple 4" model they all seem to be 3 5/8" or 4 1/8". Obviously for 4" pipe you need a bit of clearance in the hole but surely there must be some demand for perfect 4" dia. holes?
The thought of using one of these in a drill press gives me the heebie jeebies. Using them in something like a Milwaukee Holehawg is dangerous enough.


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

DaninVan said:


> Here are the alternatives...
> Self feeding bits.
> https://www.irwin.com/tools/drill-bits/weldtec-self-feed-bits
> https://www.milwaukeetool.com/Products/Accessories/Wood-Drilling/Standard-Selfeed-Bits
> ...


I have the Milwaukee series...
they do take some serious torque to turn...

go w/ a holesaw meant for the job...
https://www.lenoxtools.com/pages/one-tooth-rough-wood-hole-cutter.aspx


----------



## newbie2wood (Apr 22, 2016)

Stick486 said:


> is it that the motor is stalling and not the chuck???


It's the Chuck as when it falls out the motor is still running if I remember correctly, honestly I can't remember if the motor stalled as when it happened I was more focused on what rather than all the details.

I was cutting holes with 1.5" - 3"


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

the bit stalled the chuck..
the motor kept trying to run and when it hit LRA it got a burst of energy and tried to turn the quill...
till the poorly fitted chuck fell off...


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

I agree with Guy, in the distant past I was using a 3/4" twist drill into steel and had to use a lot of downward pressure which caused the chuck to skid and drop when pressure was released. My cure was to polish the taper with 1200 grit paper, clean all traces of oil with a lint free rag then, as has been mentioned, send the chuck hard down a few times onto a block of hard-wood and it hasn't happened since, but then again I haven't had to use such pressure since then.


----------



## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Years ago I remember reading about NASA experimenting with cold fusion welding so that parts could be permanently joined in space without arc welding or other difficult and dangerous methods. It involved polishing the two surfaces to extremely fine tolerances. Here is an explanation I just found of how it works:

When the conditions are right two highly polished pieces of steel can be fused and it results from electrons and metal atoms moving between the two surfaces and forming new metallic bonds, effectively blurring and removing the two original surfaces.

When two metal surfaces are polished enough it increases friction rather than decreasing it. So it may help to polish them up like Harry suggested.


----------



## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

DaninVan said:


> Here are the alternatives...
> Self feeding bits.
> https://www.irwin.com/tools/drill-bits/weldtec-self-feed-bits
> https://www.milwaukeetool.com/Products/Accessories/Wood-Drilling/Standard-Selfeed-Bits
> ...


Dan I hesitate to use self feed bits like those in a drill press,as the worm on the end will tend to lift the piece you are drilling off the table and spin it around causing knuckle damage to the left hand,VOE.
Herb


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> Years ago I remember reading about NASA experimenting with cold fusion welding so that parts could be permanently joined in space without arc welding or other difficult and dangerous methods. It involved polishing the two surfaces to extremely fine tolerances. Here is an explanation I just found of how it works:
> 
> When the conditions are right two highly polished pieces of steel can be fused and it results from electrons and metal atoms moving between the two surfaces and forming new metallic bonds, effectively blurring and removing the two original surfaces.
> 
> When two metal surfaces are polished enough it increases friction rather than decreasing it. So it may help to polish them up like Harry suggested.


try to chum up Schnooge.. he knows quite a bit on the subject...


----------



## Wobwoc (Jun 7, 2013)

I have had a chuck come of the small morse taper into the chuck - not the long taper into the drill press. I cleanded it and made sure there was no residue of any sort on either surface and put it back in. it laster about 2 weeks so i removed the taper from the drill press and gently tapped it firmly home on the work bench. Open the chuck so its not resting on the jaws. Om my drill you wind the press down and there is a slot to drive a tapered pin through to remove the taper.


----------



## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

*Owww...That Smarts*



Herb Stoops said:


> Dan I hesitate to use self feed bits like those in a drill press,as the worm on the end will tend to lift the piece you are drilling off the table and spin it around causing knuckle damage to the left hand,VOE.
> Herb


Doesn't surprise me, Herb; I don't have pleasant memories of using them with a 5/8" drill. If (when) the bit grabs the whole drill starts spinning, fast and hard.


----------



## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

DaninVan said:


> Doesn't surprise me, Herb; I don't have pleasant memories of using them with a 5/8" drill. If (when) the bit grabs the whole drill starts spinning, fast and hard.


Remember back when most drills had metal bodies and the trigger lock was easily set by accident? I remember lots of those drills being ripped loose out of the users hands and either winding the cord around them until it unplugged itself or the user running for the connection.


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> Years ago I remember reading about NASA experimenting with cold fusion welding so that parts could be permanently joined in space without arc welding or other difficult and dangerous methods. It involved polishing the two surfaces to extremely fine tolerances. Here is an explanation I just found of how it works:
> 
> When the conditions are right two highly polished pieces of steel can be fused and it results from electrons and metal atoms moving between the two surfaces and forming new metallic bonds, effectively blurring and removing the two original surfaces.
> 
> When two metal surfaces are polished enough it increases friction rather than decreasing it. So it may help to polish them up like Harry suggested.


according to Schnooge it's stir friction welding..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friction_stir_welding


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

ooooops...

there is a cold fusion process...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_welding


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> Remember back when most drills had metal bodies and the trigger lock was easily set by accident? I remember lots of those drills being ripped loose out of the users hands and either winding the cord around them until it unplugged itself or the user running for the connection.


ummmmmm...
is this VOE???


----------



## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

You bet! Remember the Milwaukee HoleHawgs with the lateral pipe handle...you were supposed to brace that against some framing...not wait till it swung around and whacked your leg(s).


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

DaninVan said:


> You bet! Remember the Milwaukee HoleHawgs with the lateral pipe handle...you were supposed to brace that against some framing...not wait till it swung around and whacked your leg(s).


that on occasion would tear ot the framing.... yup!!!!


----------



## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Stick486 said:


> ummmmmm...
> is this VOE???


Yup. Destroyed the cord on one.


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> Yup. Destroyed the cord on one.


you too... eh...


----------

