# Window hardwear



## Tiny (Aug 12, 2012)

I'm searching for window hardwear and specially that part that keeps the window closed. First, what is the correct name for it? The divider is I-shaped. The hindges are on the sides and the window's opens in and out. The divider is betwene inner and outer sils(so we have double glasings). The divider can't be seen from inside. The lowest part of the frame is only on less than 8mm. distance from the Surroundings. 
Do you have any idea of a closer that would fit that narrow place?


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## vzbingo (Mar 1, 2012)

Hi Esko. Just wondering if you have a picture or sketch of your window?


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## Tiny (Aug 12, 2012)

Shure Doug. Our house is dated back to 1918-1920 and I have never seen window's like this earlier. I would like to find a good looking permanent solution. I thought I might find a satisfying solution here. The counterpart can't be to high because then I can't open the window...


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## maurosnickare (Nov 18, 2011)

Tiny said:


> Shure Doug. Our house is dated back to 1918-1920 and I have never seen window's like this earlier. I would like to find a good looking permanent solution. I thought I might find a satisfying solution here. The counterpart can't be to high because then I can't open the window...


Hej Esko,

maybe i can help you,because i live in Sweden,you should look on this site Eskilstuna Kulturbeslag best place in Scandinavia for classical hardware..or you could check here if you find something..Gysinge centrum för byggnadsvård i didn't get from your message what exactly you are searching for but i hope this could help you..

check this..http://www.kulturbeslag.se/produkter/index.htm


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Hey, Esko; if I understand you correctly, you have out swinging, side-hung 'awning' sashes on the outside; and inside swinging, side-hung awning style sashes on the inside?
Basically what we'd call storm windows on the outside.
You're looking for locking latches, not closers? 
Over here, the old windows had a sliding rod running through a pivoting hub, screwed to the window _stool_l...the _sill_ being the _exterior_ bottom ledge...which acted as a means of locking the window in any position. This would have been in addition to the actual lever latch.


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## maurosnickare (Nov 18, 2011)

this is quite a modern version of the one used in scandinavia originally Dan,here it is just a eye screw,with a small rod that connect the window casing and the window frame and that lock the windows in place,like you showed in the picture..


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Hi, Mauro; the problem with the lower rod arrangement is that it interferes with the inner sash, if you have inner and outer sashes. That's why I was trying to confirm which mechanism Esko was talking about. I think it might have been the latch on the divider that he meant(?)...


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## maurosnickare (Nov 18, 2011)

Byggfabriken this is what i was talking about..or this..Byggfabriken


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Exactly! 
Byggfabriken
But I think Esko meant the latch(?)... 
https://www.google.ca/search?q=Case...LzK-ffiAKO3IDwDw&ved=0CEMQsAQ&biw=950&bih=441


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## Tiny (Aug 12, 2012)

Hi Dan.
I'm searchin for a closer. The thing that keeps the inner sill closed until the spring. I tryed to explain The situation with the frames and the part of the window that is not moving, or is a part of the wall. The gap betwene frame and wall is 8mm. Do you understand me? If I open the window there can be something that is only 7mm. high because otherwhy the window wouldn't open. The closer should be made of two pieces of somkind of metal. That part which is atached to the frame can be of normal size but the other part must be very thin because the free hight is only 8mm.
Darn. I check the names for the window part's for to morrow so I can explain what th problem is...


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Perhaps some type of barrel bolt?
http://www.nu-techint.com/images/products/bolts barrel brass.jpg
https://www.google.ca/search?q=barr...KsiALL-4Bg&sqi=2&ved=0CCkQsAQ&biw=950&bih=441


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Would it help if you knew what was there when it was new and what it was called when that "day" was current?

The attached is from "A Manual of Carpentry and Joinery," by J.W. Riley, 1905. It is an extract on window hardware for windows of that period...


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## Tiny (Aug 12, 2012)

From a historycal point of view we have a cultural, a climate and a welth gap or difference and that's why our window's are as simple as (possible) they are. Our window's vary from your's in every way. The only item that is similar is the glass itself. 
What Dan suggested the "barrel-bolt" is towards the right direction but it has to have a function that a wedge has. It has to tighten the window against the ... part of the window that is a part of the wall. (It's a mess me trying to explain : ( )


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

No, actually i understand perfectly now. You need a camming action on the latch, but with virtually no front to back depth on the mechanism. That's actually how the old doublehung sash locks worked. As you rotated the latch handle a spiral 'ramp' on it levered the two sashes away from each other in a vertical direction. Inclined planes on the matching faces of the upper and lower sashes were forced against each other by the vertical sliding motion, causing both sashes up tight against their respective stops. It was a brilliant solution!

We need pictures, Esko. 

Actually I just had a thought; if you deformed the the back end of the barrel slightly, and filed an inclined plane onto the end of the bolt, wouldn't that jam the sash tight?
No... that wont work because the bolt needs to rotate 90 deg to lock it... Ok back to the drawing board.


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## mikelley (Aug 2, 2012)

Sounds like Esko could use a flat bolt(s) with an incline/wedge action to it rather than a barrel bolt and some compressible weather stripping Also, it sounds like the sashes (inner and outer) are only about 8mm apart.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Yes! Do you have a linked picture, Mike? Keep in mind that Esko is in Finland...no Home Depot. He may be out at his forge, hand crafting these little beauties.


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## mikelley (Aug 2, 2012)

After another look at the photo I noticed that all four sashes must swing outward. A small wedge type sliding bolt mounted vertically at the top and bottom corners of each sash near the center of opening where the sashes meet should secure the sashes. The sliding bolts would need to be long enough to engage a receiver mounted in the window stop. The receivers for the outside sashes would need to be installed in such a way that they would not interfere with the swing of the inner sashes and, in addition, to allow full advantage of the wedge effect. A cam type lock we are familiar with in NA may not be available in Europe and would not be a good choice because if mounted on the stiles of
the sashes would tend to pull them together loosening the glass pane.


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## mikelley (Aug 2, 2012)

Esko, another source on the type of window you have would be the restoration people at Roros in Norge. I'm sorry that I cannot provide a link. Roros is village in Norway which is being restored and maintained in period way. I am not an authority but was fortunate to have a tour of their window restoration shop. They attempt to reuse every piece of wood an g glass they can in their projects. I think they would be a good source of information for a person like yourself interested in restoration and not so far away if you had the time and means to visit. I like your log home, I have one in Wisconsin. Wish I knew what you must know about them.


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## Tiny (Aug 12, 2012)

I've tryed to find pictures and names in english of what our windows are like. The drawing explains it perfectly but you got to know how to read it. It's a side picture of a log house wall that is aproximently 7-8" thick. We have double sash and they are about 5" apart from each other. One window consists of 4sashes. The narrow, 8mm, gap is betwene the sash and the frame. If I want to get fresh air inside I have to open to sashes. I'm searshing for hardwear that keeps the window closed when it is not open(winter).


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## Tiny (Aug 12, 2012)

The inner sash swing inside and the outer swing outside. There is no midle section in our windows. They got to be atached up and down to the frame.


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## Tiny (Aug 12, 2012)

DaninVan said:


> No, actually i understand perfectly now. You need a camming action on the latch, but with virtually no front to back depth on the mechanism. That's actually how the old doublehung sash locks worked. As you rotated the latch handle a spiral 'ramp' on it levered the two sashes away from each other in a vertical direction. Inclined planes on the matching faces of the upper and lower sashes were forced against each other by the vertical sliding motion, causing both sashes up tight against their respective stops. It was a brilliant solution!
> 
> We need pictures, Esko.
> 
> ...


You will get pictures after 10-12 hours. What kind of?


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

8" X 10" glossy ? 

Just kidding Esko... 
It's really hard to say exactly. That picture I posted, of the white painted window, was a good example of early hardware, but what we really _need_ to see is a fairly close up picture of the window, open and closed, with and without the storm window open. So basically 4 pics?

I think MIKE (MiKelly) is spot on with his description, although he kind of threw me when he said all 4 sashes opened _outwards_. Correct me if I'm wrong but the outer sashes swing out and the inner storm sashes swing in(?)... and the gap between the faces of the inner and outer is 8mm? You mentioned space to the wall, which I admit is confusing me a bit; not sure why that matters. (The space, not that I'm confused...too late for that by a decade)


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

How about this?
Tilt Window Latches

https://www.google.ca/search?q=wind...source=hp&gws_rd=cr&ei=-JyKUvGRG6ORiAKR-ICYBw


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## Tiny (Aug 12, 2012)

DaninVan said:


> How about this?
> Tilt Window Latches
> 
> https://www.google.ca/search?q=wind...source=hp&gws_rd=cr&ei=-JyKUvGRG6ORiAKR-ICYBw


Yo Dan. Thank's for the links. You are right about how the window's open. Those window's that are inside opens inside and those that are on the outside open's out. The space betwene the inner sash and the outer sash is about 5" (125mm.). The free hight under the sash when opening the window is about 8mm. The hight of the profile where the inner sash is situated is about 6mm. and that's why the free hight under the sash is 8mm. The distance betwene the window sill and the sash is 8mm.
I will upload some fotos and they will have to do. I'm not gonna let the warmth and the cat's out...

I try to explain:

When I open the window the lower part of the sash travel's on 8mm. distance from the window sill. Therefore I think that the part what the closer ataches to can not be higher than 6-7mm. Mike asked earlier how was the window closed in the early days. The inner sash was closed with nail's and the outer with basic closer. Because the divider doesn't come inside those closer's can't be used inside.


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## Tiny (Aug 12, 2012)

Hello MIKE. When I was studing 1992 we made a trip to Norway to see how they made loghouses 1000 yrs ago. I planned everything on that trip because I speak fluently swedish. We met a keeper/curator from Riksantikaren who proved my plan on familiarize in 14 stave churches. The trip lasted one week and we visited restauration sites in Bergen: Damsborg(I'm not shure of the name) and Bryggen. I had the shance to see in live action how they restore theyr old buildings. I use the same method when I'm restoring wooden items for my customers or to my self.

You are on the same track as I am on how to keep the window's closed. The inner sashes open inside. My prolem is where do I find that hardwear.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Ok; _this_ type of barrel bolt...
https://www.acklandsgrainger.com/images/items/zoom/11CG47_AS01.JPG
Use the flat plate receiver, it's intended for exactly the application you have.
BUT! And it's a big 'but', with that much of a gap top and bottom, and no centre divider, how do you stop the warm air from escaping (and cold air flooding in!). Do the top and bottom of the frame have a step that the sash closes against? If they do, then when you compress the weatherstripping,_ that_ should apply the pressure against the barrel of the bolt (that we were talking about earlier).
The beauty of this latch type is that there's NO vertical obstruction with the receiver portion, in fact you could simply drill a hole in the window stool for the bolt to slip into...wouldn't be as professional, but it would work just fine.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

More to the above:
If the face of the sash is flush with the front of the frame, ie no extended stool (sill), the supplied receiver _still_ works as the screw holes are offset _behind _the receiver hole. You could make your own if you needed more length.


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## Tiny (Aug 12, 2012)

Hi Dan. There is an extended stool (sill). It's about 2".
I've tryed three day's post pic's here but my phone/camera wount co-operate. Doing it with the laptop is frustrating slow.
For some reason the profile for the inner sash is extremely low. It's about 3mm. I have extended it with 1.5x1.5cm wood and There I have the PDMA (?) sealant. i'll draw you the projection's of the windows so you'll see how they are constructed.


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## Tiny (Aug 12, 2012)

DaninVan said:


> Ok; _this_ type of barrel bolt...
> https://www.acklandsgrainger.com/images/items/zoom/11CG47_AS01.JPG
> Use the flat plate receiver, it's intended for exactly the application you have.
> BUT! And it's a big 'but', with that much of a gap top and bottom, and no centre divider, how do you stop the warm air from escaping (and cold air flooding in!). Do the top and bottom of the frame have a step that the sash closes against? If they do, then when you compress the weatherstripping,_ that_ should apply the pressure against the barrel of the bolt (that we were talking about earlier).
> The beauty of this latch type is that there's NO vertical obstruction with the receiver portion, in fact you could simply drill a hole in the window stool for the bolt to slip into...wouldn't be as professional, but it would work just fine.


"...no centre divider..."

There is one but it is betwene the inner and outer sashes

"...with that much of a gap top and bottom..."

It's not a gap! It is the profile were the sash is mounted. 
Because of the hight of the profile I can't use the flat plate receiver.

"Do the top and bottom of the frame have a step that the sash closes against?"

Yes. It's called huullos
Normaly it's 10-12mm. but in our house it is in the inner sash 2-4mm. I have atached 1.5x1.5cm to extend the profile so that it is possible to get the window's seald.

I'll draw a picture for you guy's so there is a possibility for us to understand eache others. . .


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

"I'll draw a picture for you guy's so there is a possibility for us to understand eache others. . ."
Lol!


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Tiny said:


> "...no centre divider..."
> 
> There is one but it is betwene the inner and outer sashes
> 
> ...


That's what I imagined and saw. 

I think we all have a similar understanding of what it is and "are" saying the same, but are getting confused on how we are all describing that same.

Pictures and drawings are a better, more universal translation to communicate with. We have 2 threads going on this and pictures and drawings would help with both.

Personally- Seeing some pictures of it, the suggestions for profiles and hardware would work. Just simple profiles and mechanics. (It is not high end nor rocket science.) The inside window (as per Esko's linked article) just goes into a simple rebate which has a seal, which the window would be closed against and locked. Most any lock or latch would work, once the window was pushed closed. Most bolt locks for that kind of mechanics would have a taper so that the window was pushed tighter as the bolt was locked.


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## Tiny (Aug 12, 2012)

Somekind of a "metal item" that would tighten the window against the rubber seal would be perfect. The mounting is allways a problem. If it has to be just on the right spot it will work only maby in 50%, maby less, of windows.
The picture is just an illustration of how the window was constructed in 1920. The meashures isn't correct but you can get the "picture" of what I have been talking of.


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## vzbingo (Mar 1, 2012)

Tiny,
Would something like this work? The latch handles on the window sash, with the receivers set in to the upper and lower window frames. The latch would provide camming action to tighten the sashes to the frames. You'd have to carve out some of the frame wood to allow the latches to work effectively.

Polished Brass Cabinet / Casement Window Latch - Amazon.com


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## Tiny (Aug 12, 2012)

Hi Doug. It would work better if the resever would be construated a little differently. It should be narrow and long so that the screw holes would be on bothe ends. If it was 1/2x2" of size it would be very good. The one Dan, or was it MIKE, suggested a barrel bolt with a camming action. Either way I have to take the file and re designe some metal... Or continue as I have done it all these year's...sigh.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Hey, Esko; not really. Doug's example comes with an alternate receiver. It's the bottom one in this link...
http://hi.atgimg.com/img/x/1192/cf066u3.jpg
Notice that the slot is tapered? that acts as a cam, pulling/pushing the sash tight.
The receiver is simply (in your case) set into the stool (inside sill) with the wood mortised out below the slot, to allow for the latching action.


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## Tiny (Aug 12, 2012)

Ok. Now we are talking!! Where do I find these or easyer to me to find them-what is the name of it?Thank you very much for helping me out. That is a good solution. Maby I can find something in Finland. But but. Wouldn't put my money on that Finnish horse.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Pretty much every building supply/lumberyard/ big box store _here_ sells them, and I'm guessing they're all imported from the Orient (not necessarily China; lots of stuff still comes from Taiwan and Japan).
Maybe these will help you find a Finnish source?
C.R. LAURENCE H3683 CRL Antique Brass Casement Sash Lock - Amazon.com
Prime-Line Products H 3553 Casement Window Lock, Brass Plated - Amazon.com
Stanley 754022 - Bright Brass(3) Casement Fastener - Amazon.com


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## Tiny (Aug 12, 2012)

Thank's Dan. I try to find them here first : ) but I think it will be a short shershing


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