# New Toy



## Titus A Duxass (Jan 6, 2010)

Look at what turned up on my doorstep today.








It was a cheap as chips (which probably means that it will be pants).
It's a Variolux 550watt model and it makes a good noise, has quite a suck on it as well.

If anyone has any tips or tricks for one of these I'm all ears.


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## Cassandra (Mar 15, 2006)

Hi Titus:

One tip: Consider adding a separator before the blower. (Either a cyclone separator or a Phil Thien separator.) The separator will help protect the impeller by stopping the chips and other larger pieces.

[Edit]

http://www.routerforums.com/tools-woodworking/15742-lucky-me-new-cyclone.html <-- Cyclone Separator (my second post in this thread)

http://www.cgallery.com/jpthien/cy.htm <-- Phil Thien Separator

[End of Edit]

Cassandra


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## CanuckGal (Nov 26, 2008)

Sweet! These really are essential for the shop. My only recommendation is to upgrade to the canister filter. The cloth bags get too dirty too fast and are a pain to clean. The canister filters can be a bit pricey but are well worth the investment. I got the one here and I love the cleaning handle. Bumps all the dust from the inside of the filter back into the bag.


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

Sweet, Titus!

My opinion: +1 on Deb's "cartridge filter" and Cassandra's "separator", for different reasons. 

For the filter, check the bag on top's filter rating. Bag filters can run 10 to 30 micron or more while cartridge filters today are often rated to 1-2 microns. The more of those fines you *don't* breathe, the better!

I have a Jet and plan to add a separator (probably a 30 gallon wastebasket-type) in front of its suction. When I use the jointer or especially the planer, I can watch it fill. For me, at least, it's a nuisance thing. I've emptied my bag on a Friday afternoon and had it half-full by Sunday evening.

Your mileage may vary...


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Titus

I'm not a bit fan of the cartridge filter. to me it's more price hipe,,but I'm a big fan of the pre filter cans,,the cloth bags are rated 10 to 30 micron but as you use the cloth bag the small holes will get smaller and the micron rating will change..not to say anything about the price of the cartridge type
, if you use the air blow gun like I do in the shop you will airborne more saw / router dust, than will every get out of the cloth bag at one time.

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## AxlMyk (Jun 13, 2006)

Bob;
You must do a heck of a cleaning job before I visit.
I've never seen a speck of dust in your shop.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Mike

hahahahaha the next time you stop by I will get you on your hands and knees, then you can have a peek under the equipment that's where I keep it most of the time along with the tons of dog hair ,that I hate 

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AxlMyk said:


> Bob;
> You must do a heck of a cleaning job before I visit.
> I've never seen a speck of dust in your shop.


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## jlord (Nov 16, 2009)

The bags are available in 1 micron. Don't know if it is available to fit your unit though. I have a Delta with a 1 micron bag & it works pretty good.


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## Titus A Duxass (Jan 6, 2010)

Thank you all for the tips.
I will look into the separator option.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Cassandra said:


> Hi Titus:
> 
> One tip: Consider adding a separator before the blower. (Either a cyclone separator or a Phil Thien separator.) The separator will help protect the impeller by stopping the chips and other larger pieces.
> 
> ...


Hi Cassandra:

I have the LeeValley equivalent but have since looked at Phil's equivalent and your's. The LeeVally is pretty simple but effective. The only directionality is a slight scoop on the intake side and an angle for the vacuum connection in the middle. There are not other baffles or other convolutions on the inside. Now, I note that Phil's has a baffle and I note that your's has an Archimedes screw. Is there some advantage of your screw configuration? I've determined that Phil's offers no advantage and I'm curious about your's.

Titus:

If you have a 24" box fan, get a furnace filter tape it to the intake side of the fan and you have a dust filter for all of the fine stuff that doesn't get sucked up by the big job. I use a separator before a standard shop vacuum and for airborne dust I use the box fan and furnace filter. Now, if I could just do something about dust from the road!


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## Cassandra (Mar 15, 2006)

allthunbs said:


> Hi Cassandra:
> 
> I have the LeeValley equivalent but have since looked at Phil's equivalent and your's. The LeeVally is pretty simple but effective. The only directionality is a slight scoop on the intake side and an angle for the vacuum connection in the middle. There are not other baffles or other convolutions on the inside. Now, I note that Phil's has a baffle and I note that your's has an Archimedes screw. Is there some advantage of your screw configuration? I've determined that Phil's offers no advantage and I'm curious about your's.


Hi Ron:

Glad to hear that the LV separator lid is effective. I was concerned with the design possibly allowing too much dust to fly from the inlet port to the outlet port. 

Cyclone separators (such as Phil's, Bill Pentz's and others) spin the air-dust mixture to use two forces of nature to separate the dust from the air. 

The first force is centrifugal -- the weight of the dust throws it outwards inside the collector bin. Air is sucked from the middle of the container, where the air is clearer. 

The second force (the proper name eludes me) involves the differences in the speed of the air at the center and at the edge of the collector bin. The air at the edge is moving slower than the air at the center. This allows the dust to settle out more at the edge. Hence why in cyclone separators the air is forced to the edge. Phil Thien's design amplifies this effect by having the dust thrown at the side of the bin, where it descends below the baffle. 

An advantage to Phil's design is that the volume below the baffle is set to swirling less than in other designs (such as Bill Pentz's.) My design, which is based on Bill's, actually has the collected dust swirling around in the separator. This would allow more dust (of the finer nature) to be sucked up by the blower. Bill's design actually separates the collection bin from the separator, whereas my design combines the two. 

So, I would expect the effectiveness of the techniques to be (from highest to lowest): Phil Thien, Bill Pentz, mine, LV.

Cassandra


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

*What furnace filters do and do not filter, and how to do better*

I've attached a document from the American Lung Association


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Hi Cassandra:



Cassandra said:


> Glad to hear that the LV separator lid is effective. I was concerned with the design possibly allowing too much dust to fly from the inlet port to the outlet port.


That doesn't appear to be the case. My vacuum is fitted with a cartridge filter and it is scarcely used. There is a bit of dust in the bin but not much. However, there is more than ample in the garbage can.



> Cyclone separators (such as Phil's, Bill Pentz's and others) spin the air-dust mixture to use two forces of nature to separate the dust from the air.





> The first force is centrifugal -- the weight of the dust throws it outwards inside the collector bin. Air is sucked from the middle of the container, where the air is clearer.


I believe that to be the case with the LeeValley as well. It seems that the mere position and angle of the intake with the exhaust in the centre is adequate to promote the centrifugal effect you speak of.



> The second force (the proper name eludes me) involves the differences in the speed of the air at the center and at the edge of the collector bin. The air at the edge is moving slower than the air at the center. This allows the dust to settle out more at the edge. Hence why in cyclone separators the air is forced to the edge. Phil Thien's design amplifies this effect by having the dust thrown at the side of the bin, where it descends below the baffle.





> An advantage to Phil's design is that the volume below the baffle is set to swirling less than in other designs (such as Bill Pentz's.) My design, which is based on Bill's, actually has the collected dust swirling around in the separator. This would allow more dust (of the finer nature) to be sucked up by the blower. Bill's design actually separates the collection bin from the separator, whereas my design combines the two.


Ok, here's where I question your design. I think your turbulence is too strong. It is not allowing the finer particles to precipitate out of the swirl leaving them (as you say) to be sucked up by the blower" instead of being deposited in the garbage can. You're creating a tunnel effect with your screw, not a centrifugal effect. This is creating turbulence that is counter-productive to your objective.



> So, I would expect the effectiveness of the techniques to be (from highest to lowest): Phil Thien, Bill Pentz, mine, LV.


You may be correct but I cannot understand how the others are better, or worse than the LV. I think all achieve the same purpose with essentially the same design. I think attempts to improve on the design all lead to inefficiencies.


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## Cassandra (Mar 15, 2006)

Ron:

My design was a _"simple, quick throw-together and see if it works"_ project. I wasn't expecting too much separation. It was a first attempt at a separator. To my pleasant shock, it actually works well. As a consequence, I didn't bother with additional attempts.

If one applies vector maths to it, one easily sees that, although the overall flow is a downward spiral, the horizontal circular motion is still a major component. This still leads to a centrifugal force driving the heavier particles to the sides of the collection bin. 

The vertical (downward) motion component drives the dust down into the bin. The main problem with my design (as a result of not separating the separator from the collection bin) is that there is vertical updraft in the middle of the collection bin, which can collect some of the dust.

Phil Thien's design eliminates this problem by using the baffle to keep the collected dust separated from the air flow. Bill Pentz's design achieves the same by having the dust drop out of the separator into the collection bin. 

My "quick and dirty" attempt fails to keep the dust out of the air flow, when there is sufficient incoming dust. However, when I use my separator with my table saw, router, planer or drill press, very little dust actually makes it to the filter bag. 

As for efficiencies, is my design really that much worse than the LV lid? Granted, there will be some air flow loss due to the central tube in my separator. But compared to the losses incurred by the dust collection hoses, does the separator make much of a dent in the over-all efficiency?

Cassandra


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Router Forums - View Single Post - Lucky me... a new cyclone!

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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

Nice job, Cassandra!


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Cassandra said:


> As for efficiencies, is my design really that much worse than the LV lid? Granted, there will be some air flow loss due to the central tube in my separator. But compared to the losses incurred by the dust collection hoses, does the separator make much of a dent in the over-all efficiency?


Is your design worse than LV? Absolutely not. You're is far better, you made yours. I was just trying to see if there was some advantage to your design that I was missing. Worse yet, I wanted to see if my evaluation was, in some simple way, valid. Have to exercise the little grey cells from time to time ;-)


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## Cassandra (Mar 15, 2006)

Big Jim: Thanks!

Ron: Exercising the grey cells is good, isn't it? And thanks for exercising mine.

On another issue, what is the minimum air flow rate (CFM) that adequately removes the dust? And what is the impact of that much air flow? 

My dust collector has a rated 590 CFM, before the addition of my separator. I am finding the 590 CFM inadequate. My next dust collector, if I get one, will be a minimum 1000 CFM.

Cassandra


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Cassandra said:


> Big Jim: Thanks!
> 
> Ron: Exercising the grey cells is good, isn't it? And thanks for exercising mine.
> 
> ...


Hi Cassandra:

I think my ShopVac is something less than 129 although I can't prove it. However, with this vacuum (2.5 HP) I can keep up with everything in the shop except the planer and almost keep up with the jointer.

Is it possible that rate is much too high and is generating too much turbulence? Try yours with your ordinary shop vacuum or even your household vacuum.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Ron

That one cracks me up " household vacuum " I can just see him now taking the Filter Queen out to the shop, and the BOSS, said and where do you thing you are going with that bud.. .....


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allthunbs said:


> Hi Cassandra:
> 
> I think my ShopVac is something less than 129 although I can't prove it. However, with this vacuum (2.5 HP) I can keep up with everything in the shop except the planer and almost keep up with the jointer.
> 
> Is it possible that rate is much too high and is generating too much turbulence? Try yours with your ordinary shop vacuum or even your household vacuum.


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## Cassandra (Mar 15, 2006)

Ron:

As stated in my previous posting (04-24-2010 11:04 PM), very little dust makes it to the filter bag -- most of the dust stays in the bin. So, no, the flow rate is not too high.

When I use the Bosch RA1173AT dust hoods with my 1617EVSPK, the air flow from router sends dust all over the place. This is indicative that the dust collector's flow rate is too low. 

When I go to empty the dust bin, I find the dust collected around the bottom edge of the bin. The center of the dust bin is usually clear of dust. This shows that the dust continues to be thrown away from the center of the bin and away from the blower inlet.

The design of my cyclone separator doesn't readily allow the attempt to use a shop vac. To remove the blower and add the shop vac hose to the outlet pipe is too much work for too little result. 

Cassandra


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Cassandra said:


> As stated in my previous posting (04-24-2010 11:04 PM), very little dust makes it to the filter bag -- most of the dust stays in the bin. So, no, the flow rate is not too high.
> 
> When I use the Bosch RA1173AT dust hoods with my 1617EVSPK, the air flow from router sends dust all over the place. This is indicative that the dust collector's flow rate is too low.


Or, the design of the dust hood doesn't permit enough airflow or is deflecting chips away somehow.



> When I go to empty the dust bin, I find the dust collected around the bottom edge of the bin. The center of the dust bin is usually clear of dust. This shows that the dust continues to be thrown away from the center of the bin and away from the blower inlet.


Yup, I agree. That will happen even with a few CFM. My old 1.5HP shop vac will generate enough suction that it can produce that effect with routers and hand tools and cleaning up the floor. It will even keep up with the drill press and saws. However, it won't keep up with the jointer or planer. 



> The design of my cyclone separator doesn't readily allow the attempt to use a shop vac. To remove the blower and add the shop vac hose to the outlet pipe is too much work for too little result.


Well, it was just a suggestion. My diagnostic mind at work. For all my shop tools, the only ones that require a dust collection system would be the jointer and planer. My shop vac and cyclone lid will keep up with everything else. I guess I'll spend my bucks on more router bits. :yes2:


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## Cassandra (Mar 15, 2006)

Your comments are greatly appreciated, Ron.

Merci beaucoup, mon ami.

Cassandra


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Vous êtes bienvenu.


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## Dr.Zook (Sep 10, 2004)

Vous êtes bienvenu.
= "You are welcome."


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## Cassandra (Mar 15, 2006)

Bonjour Doc:

Oui, c'est bien.

Cassandra


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

:jester: Dere dey go agin.. Tawkin' Canuk on us! :jester:


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

BigJimAK said:


> :jester: Dere dey go agin.. Tawkin' Canuk on us! :jester:


Aber, was ist canuk?
Mais, c'est quoi canuk?
pero, ¿cuál es canuk?
maar, wat is canuk?
por, ajo që është canuk?
ولكن ، ما هو canuk؟
Oops that one didn't work right :sad:

but, what is canuk?


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## Cassandra (Mar 15, 2006)

BigJimAK said:


> :jester: Dere dey go agin.. Tawkin' Canuk on us! :jester:


 Hey, that's Quebecois, not Canuck! :jester:


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## CanuckGal (Nov 26, 2008)

I think he means Canuck. Americans can't spell in Canadian.


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

Yea Deb... like those who use too many U's in their words, we delete unnecessary letters... colour, routeur.. <g>


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## jimini2001 (Mar 28, 2010)

This is hopefully my next purchase. I am using a shop vac now and it fills up fast. I wouldn't mind emptying every couple of days but every couple of hours is a pain.


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## thevasowoodworker (Apr 30, 2010)

Lucky dog!!


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## Willway (Aug 16, 2012)

We are considering mounting everything outside except for a 40 gallon plastic drum (corn syrup from a local bakery) as a catch can. we have an all metal shop so we are not overly concerned about fire, The the dust and chips will be blown directly into a open metal bin and used as mulch.I will be using a 24v relay and a switch to start the blower at each machine in the shop. There is no big wiring hassle as it can all be done with inexpensive door dell wire and a simple door bell transformer. My only concern is HP. What are the the suggestions on this for a one man one machine at a time operation? I know bigger is better, but this is also true with money.


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