# staircase with winders..how to avoid them?



## maurosnickare (Nov 18, 2011)

Hi,
In Sweden,as in many european countries,the staircase with winders is often used,but i don't find them particularly safe..i would like to know if someone knows a way for avoid them and using instead a landing system..or if they must be used in some particular occasion..i'm not a staircase expert and i never build a staircase but i would like to start somewhere..


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## 01stairguy (Apr 18, 2010)

The only way you can avoid the winder is if you have enough room for a landing and if there is enough head room clearance , can you post a picture of the well opening and some width dimentions and most important the exact rough rise. I don't know what are the codes allowed in your country.


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## maurosnickare (Nov 18, 2011)

Hi Stair Guy,
thank you for your answer,i have seen your previous works and i'm astonished..i still don't have the exact measurements,it was just a question for having an idea how to avoid this kind of staircase..what do you think about this kind of stair?i would like to know your professional opinion!


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## 01stairguy (Apr 18, 2010)

If you end up with a winder is because you did not had a choice. The winder is the last thing as a stair builder I want to do. Winders are use a lot when there is not enough room for 2 or 3 full straight runs out here in the city Chicago down town winders are comun, it's and every day thing. So I avoid them when I can, they take twice as long and cost more money, the key of the winder is to gave 2 or 3 equal. Runs what ever the case might be. Don't forget to maintain the codes on the winder treads. We call it the 10" walk line. Here is where the equal runs come in to place so you don't loose the sequence on the steps as you are walking up or down. Hard to explain but eazy to visualize. I hope I make sentence


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## maurosnickare (Nov 18, 2011)

Hi,absolutely clear,i see this kind of stairs everyday in every home,they are the rule here,but they look so unconfortable and dangerous,i actually fell 2 times from one of this staircase,to my eye they look pretty complex also to make,but as you said it takes twice of the time for building one..you probably know this better than me,so i want ask a question:are these type of staircase the result of bad planning in the house?what you think about this type of stairs?


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## 01stairguy (Apr 18, 2010)

Snickare85 said:


> Hi,absolutely clear,i see this kind of stairs everyday in every home,they are the rule here,but they look so unconfortable and dangerous,i actually fell 2 times from one of this staircase,to my eye they look pretty complex also to make,but as you said it takes twice of the time for building one..you probably know this better than me,so i want ask a question:are these type of staircase the result of bad planning in the house?what you think about this type of stairs?


not at all is just depending the amount of space there is to fit a stair case, like i said big citys real state is expensive so that's the reason why they use winders not a whole lot of room from floor to floor, don't get me wrong i have done in the city full stair cases up to 17 risers of corse not for the average customers, people with deep pockets if you know what I mean.


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## maurosnickare (Nov 18, 2011)

ahah!i understand what you mean with deep pockets...i see that in usa and canada and england the method for fixing treads and risers with wedges is the normality,here for example this is not used at all..they just mortising tread and risers and fix them with screw and after the screwhole will be plugged..can you tell me the reason why the wedge sistem is used and the pros and cons?


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Snickare85 said:


> can you tell me the reason why the wedge sistem is used and the pros and cons?


Mauro

Coming from a country where kite winders are common in older, smaller houses (they are generally avoided in houses built since WWII) and where we use wedges I can say that kite winders are as Ron says, a requirement based on land cost/building budgets in the vast majority of cases combined with the need to produce a stair with a "going" which meets the local regulations. BTW if you think that kite winders are bad, take a look at "spacesaver" staircases with cut-away treads, or go to Amsterdam and experience some of the really steep stairs there - much greater "going" than I've ever come across here in the UK.

The wedges here are because in the UK we mainly build closed riser stairs and the housings are cut using a housing plane or (on a router) a housing cutter which creates a gently sloped side to the housings, rather like a dovetail. Using taper wedges, glue blocks and glue to assemble stairs gives a very ridgid structure which will not creak in service if they are properly assembled - something screwed staircases are prone to doing after years of service. Furthermore wedged staircases can be repaired in situ even when they are installed by fixing through to a masindry wall by simply removing the underdrawings and working from beneath. The design has evolved over about 600 years to where it is now and seems to work quite well

Regards

Phil


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## maurosnickare (Nov 18, 2011)

Hi Phil,
i perfectly understood what you said,i have seen the dutch stairs that you mentioned before,in some houses i have seen the same here in Sweden..not quite comfortable to walk,it's more like a ladder..i perfectly agree on the wedge system,it looks much better than just screw and plug the treads..


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## 01stairguy (Apr 18, 2010)

Snickare85 said:


> ahah!i understand what you mean with deep pockets...i see that in usa and canada and england the method for fixing treads and risers with wedges is the normality,here for example this is not used at all..they just mortising tread and risers and fix them with screw and after the screwhole will be plugged..can you tell me the reason why the wedge sistem is used and the pros and cons?



when you rout stringers use a 1/2, 5/8 or 7/8 wide dove tail Bit 7 de gree angle,The dovetail bit creates a leading edge in the slot for the treads and risers to touch before they are fully set in the routed channel. Especially with softer skirtboard stock like poplar (for wedge material), the force of the wedge will make the tread and riser crush into that edge of the slot for an extraordinarily tight joint, there is like 1 1/2 degree anfle in a 9'' long wedge


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## maurosnickare (Nov 18, 2011)

thank you for the explanation ron,i have seen a picture of routing housing in this way,it probably looks also a much better fit without any gaps due to the shallow angle of the bit..it's crazy that a system like this it's not popular at all here..because it's a very traditional and clean method to build staircase instead of screws and plugs..


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## 01stairguy (Apr 18, 2010)

Snickare85 said:


> thank you for the explanation ron,i have seen a picture of routing housing in this way,it probably looks also a much better fit without any gaps due to the shallow angle of the bit..it's crazy that a system like this it's not popular at all here..because it's a very traditional and clean method to build staircase instead of screws and plugs..


btw it works with all types of wood. I use anything that i can make use out of it


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## maurosnickare (Nov 18, 2011)

what's the wood that you use most of the time?do you make a full scale pattern of the stair before start to build or you use devices such as cad for example for drawing?


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## 01stairguy (Apr 18, 2010)

Snickare85 said:


> what's the wood that you use most of the time?do you make a full scale pattern of the stair before start to build or you use devices such as cad for example for drawing?


first I go to the job site and see what i have to work with. then I go from there if there is no need for a winder you x it out, than if you need a landing you figuert out rise and run and you tell them where it goes. Depending on what the architect and home owners have in mind. And I don't use auto cad just because I am not too good at it, I don't have the time to sit behind the computer to desing it. Don't get me wrong that is the best program out there, I just choose no to use it. Remember that 100 years a go the good Crafstman didn't have this high technology and they were able to accomplish alot of beautiful wood work out there. Thank god now and day we have alot of tool that makes our job easier


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## maurosnickare (Nov 18, 2011)

HI Ron,
i understand the process,about layout i really hate autocad and all this computer program,i'm not a computer guy and i prefer making sketch of things or full scale drawing instead,i think it's much better,it's like you said,before the technology was invented people did everything by hand,no exception for drawing. do you use a framing square and buttons to layout your step usually?


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## 01stairguy (Apr 18, 2010)

Snickare85 said:


> HI Ron,
> i understand the process,about layout i really hate autocad and all this computer program,i'm not a computer guy and i prefer making sketch of things or full scale drawing instead,i think it's much better,it's like you said,before the technology was invented people did everything by hand,no exception for drawing. do you use a framing square and buttons to layout your step usually?


Yes let's say when I get to the winder I do a full scale of just the winder itself using a framing square , compass and tape measure


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## 01stairguy (Apr 18, 2010)

Snickare85 said:


> HI Ron,
> i understand the process,about layout i really hate autocad and all this computer program,i'm not a computer guy and i prefer making sketch of things or full scale drawing instead,i think it's much better,it's like you said,before the technology was invented people did everything by hand,no exception for drawing. do you use a framing square and buttons to layout your step


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## 01stairguy (Apr 18, 2010)

Mauro try this PDF and click on the 2006 code this is going to give you and idea on the lay out and the 10" walk line to maintain all the runs equal, I understand you are in another country but basically it's the same way on how to lay out. www.qis-tx.com/.../stair.installation. ... I hope this link works


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## 01stairguy (Apr 18, 2010)

01stairguy said:


> Mauro try this PDF and click on the 2006 code this is going to give you and idea on the lay out and the 10" walk line to maintain all the runs equal, I understand you are in another country but basically it's the same way on how to lay out. www.qis-tx.com/.../stair.installation. ... I hope this link works


Sorry about that. That link doesn't work. You are gonna have to search for it. PDF 20006 stair building hides Qis-tax.com


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## maurosnickare (Nov 18, 2011)

Hi Ron,i found the file,it´s very interesting,thank you..i see in US the building code is very strict,in Sweden is not so strict is mostly about common sense,but still there is a code to respect!


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