# Finishing a piano



## karateed (Feb 7, 2006)

Hi Folks,

Years ago, we bought an old piano that really needed a lot of work. At the time we didn't have money to put into the piano (not that we do today) but I want to start working on the exterior look of it.

It's a cherry red type stain. Question is this:

Does anybody know if there are certain things that a person should know about finishing a piano? The reason for the question is that a piano is basically a sound box and one thing I do know is you can ruin the sound it gives if you don't finish it right. I just don't know how you should finish a piano. I'm not even sure what type of finish is on this piano but it does seem to have a very lively sound box.

Thanks for any help anyone can give me with this.

KarateEd......


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## jerrymayfield (Sep 25, 2004)

Do you know the age of the piano ?. If its over twenty and less than eighty years old the finish is probably lacquer. Most newer ones are finished with polyester and the very old were usually shellac (spirit varnish) or some sort of natural resin varnish. You probably should try to determine what the finish is now, before you attempt to repair or refinish.
Most pianos are veneered.

Regards

Jerry


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## karateed (Feb 7, 2006)

Well, interesting.....

I can't seem to find the year it was made. It's made by Bell Organ & Piano Co. Ltd, Guelph Canada. It has the number 4082 on the metal that holds the strings. On the front it has Cabinet Grand on one line, below it Guelph, Canada. On each side of this is writing and a picture. The writing on the first line is Trade, then a picture of 2 bells, then the word Mark on the bottom to finish the thought, Trade Mark.

Do you know where the year it is made is likely to be found? I suspect this to be a fairly old piano. It's heavy as sin and an upright.

Thanks,
Ed......


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## karateed (Feb 7, 2006)

Hmmm.....found a site that gave serial number beginnings.

1895 – 5000
1897 – 7000
1899 – 8600
1900 – 9000

1903 – 12, 000
1905 – 14, 000
1907 – 18, 000
1910 – 21, 000
1912 – 24, 000
1917 – 29, 000
1918 – 30, 000
1919 – 31, 000
1923 – 33, 000
1924 – 34, 000

The first number appears to be the year, the second number the beginning serial number of that year. I have 4082 on my piano which means it may be over 100 years old.

I've found another more updated serial number list. It appears the piano I have is at least as old as 1893, if not older. 1894 starts with 4916, #1 was made in 1885, so it's between those dates - 1885 to 1893.

How about that? Now....any ideas what the finish would be and what's the best way to go about first cleaning the finish off and then refinishing?

Should a person refinish with the same type of finish to keep the soundboard with the same type of resonance?

All these questions, but I want to do this right, especially if it's as old as I think it is.

Thanks for any response this elicits,

Ed......


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## jerrymayfield (Sep 25, 2004)

The finish ,if original, is most likely shellac. Test the finish in an out of the way place. First use alcohol on a Q-tip or something similar, if the finish becomes gummy its shellac. If not you will have to continue testing.

Jerry


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## karateed (Feb 7, 2006)

Thanks Jerry.

Ed......


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## Rolf Maxa (Feb 8, 2005)

Ed, you may want to check out some of the information on the net. Like the following link may help you get started: http://www.pianoworld.com/howdoi.htm

Rolf


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Ed, the second job I had after leaving school in 1949 as a trainee radio/TV tech. was with a firm who also specialised in grand pianos. Many a lunch break I would spend in the piano repair department watching their craftsman French polisher hand polishing using Shellac and producing a mirror finish that looked like it was a quarter inch thick.


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## jerrymayfield (Sep 25, 2004)

harrysin said:


> Ed, the second job I had after leaving school in 1949 as a trainee radio/TV tech. was with a firm who also specialised in grand pianos. Many a lunch break I would spend in the piano repair department watching their craftsman French polisher hand polishing using Shellac and producing a mirror finish that looked like it was a quarter inch thick.


French polishing is a beautiful finish, but there is a fairly steep learning curve. If you decide to try this first do many,many practice boards.

Jerry


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## reikimaster (Sep 29, 2005)

The piano will not be anywhere NEAR as sensitive to the finish as would... say... a violin. If you want to do a nice job in this case I would put the most effort into determining the original finish and trying to duplicate it. If you can post a picture I may be able to help. With that serial number it should be an upright as Bell didn't make their first grand until 1901. And do you want to actually RESTORE it or simply refinish it?

If you say you want to restore it, I am going to tell you that you need an expert in piano restoration. There are simply too many ways to screw it up. Is the soundboard still crowned correctly? What kind of shape are the bridges in? How is the action? You NEVER strip a soundboard with chemicals. The old finish gets carefully scraped off. The bridges NEVER get finish applied to their tops. The only thing that goes on the tops of the bridges is graphite. Things like that. The finish is PROBABLY an open pore satin if it's an upright of some quality. 

But I would need to see photos to know more.


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## karateed (Feb 7, 2006)

Hi Reikimaster (do you really know reiki?)

My intent at this time is only to finish and then as money becomes available to start restoring it a bit at a time. I know not to try restoration myself. I'm 57 and have played piano since I was 10 years old. I know what I like in a feel for the piano. This piano has a wonderful vibrant sound but needs lots of restoration of some of the old action parts. That's not a problem with a good piano mechanic.

The finishing though is something I will try a piece at a time. I'm not sure how I will attempt the main soundboard as the piano is in our kitchen. Many of the parts will come off so I can work out in my shed on them but the main box....don't know yet....may have to devise something to eliminate air through some kind of poly containment system and straight out the kitchen door in the summer.

Anyway, I'll post some pictures of the piano. As you may have seen in the earlier posts I have researched it and it is over 100 years old.

Thanks for your assists.

Ed......


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## reikimaster (Sep 29, 2005)

OK... (I'm 55.... I hear ya).... I would say that if you really like the instrument and want to refinish it, give it a go on some easy parts. If those satisfy you, then continue on. You might want to have it appraised before you start the internal restoration. And if you suspect it may be anything approaching unique, you may want to have it professionally appraised before touching it. 

Bell Piano & Organ started in Guelph in 1864 and they made reed organs (called melodeons). Their first year they made 25.  By 1884 they claimed to have made 26,000 instruments. In 1888 the company was sold to an English syndicate and that's when the name was changed to Bell Organ & Piano Co. So it wasn't until 1888 that they would have made their first piano. They were making 600 reed organs and 200 pianos a month. Their first grand piano was made in 1901. In 1907, when piano sales surpassed organ sales continuously, the name was changed BACK to Bell Piano & Organ Co Ltd. It was sold in 1928 to a syndicate based in Brantford and then finally sold again in 1934 to Lesage Pianos (started in 1891 near Montreal).

wow.... I sure ramble on.....

Be cautious if you embark on a true restoration. Most places won't "restore" an upright. They just restring them. Cheap places will simply force larger tuning pins into the existing pin block. GOOD places will properly replace the pinblock if needed. Cheap places may replace hammers with the wrong SIZE for the instrument. If you enjoy the action and sound, you'll want it done right. Some of the Bell pianos went to palaces in England, Italy, Spain.. and even a Turkish Sultan's palace. So they were capable of making some fine instruments.

*** edit***

Oh, and yes, I know reiki. I am an Usui Shiki Ryoho Reiki Master Teacher


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## karateed (Feb 7, 2006)

Hi ReikiMaster,

Well, here are a few pictures of the piano. I'm only using my Blackberry device to take these, it's only 2MP so not the best quality.

See what you think about them, let me know please.

Just a footnote: My wife and I are level 2 Reiki as are 2 of my daughters and 1 son-in-law has his level 1.

It's a wonderful gift to know about.

Ed......


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## reikimaster (Sep 29, 2005)

Looks wonderful!  A couple of suggestions. #1 Follow jerrymayfield's advice about trying to determine the existing finish. He's a finish guru (not from Finland as far as I know.... but.... sorry... I digress)

#2 you may want to contact a company that specializes in restoring pianos and see what they say. Refinishing a piano in your kitchen will be quite an undertaking ... heheh. 

One of the problems you'll run into is the emblem work. Modern pianos use a decal. Yours is probably hand lettered in paint with several coats of finish over it. I say that because I doubt the paint would have held up as nicely as it apparently has, if it was exposed on top of the finish. Here you have a couple of choices. First take high resolution photos. Then take lots of measurements of the emblem work. You can either have someone come in and hand letter it back on or.... you can find a place to make decals that reproduce the emblems. You would apply a couple coats of finish, then the emblems, then several more coats of finish... essentially burying the decals in finish which will protect them for a very long time. 

Another problem to consider is normal everyday kitchen grease. If you have any exposed, unfinished wood, it can be contaminated by airborne kitchen grease. 

If the finish is shellac (and I strongly suspect that jerrymayfield is correct... and it IS shellac)... well I refinished some old, 15 light, french doors that were in deplorable condition, by laboriously wiping them down repeatedly with alcohol. Once free of the old finish I just rubbed an oil finish into them and they were spectacular. In the case of the piano you would want to apply a shellac. If you're not terribly interested in historically correct restoration then you would probably also be fine with a laquer, as long as you don't ever let the thought enter your head of using a poly on it


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## karateed (Feb 7, 2006)

Hi ReikiMaster, JerryMayField,

I will follow both of your advice to the letter. You're right, trying to finish the body in the kitchen presents a big challenge but the piano is a beast and moving it around requires more brawn than brain.

What I'll do is work on removable parts in the shop which has a fairly constant temperature (at least when the weather is moderate). I'll test the panel under the keyboard first because it's hard to see anyway and if I'm using the wrong remover at least it won't show easily.

This will be a fairly long project for me but I'm sure it'll be a most worthwhile one.

I've already found a company that can reproduce the emblem (they may already have the emblem in their lineup) so that's good news. Also the thought of poly occurred once into my poor head but has since been mercifully released. I want to try to do this right.

Thank you both for your input. I truly appreciate it as I'm pretty much a finishing novice.

Ed......


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hey Ed

Just my 2 cents,,,  ,, I would not touch it ,,,maybe a bit of clean up but I would not refinsh it ,,, calll a piano tuner and have him drop by and tune it up for you they do it all day long and they know how to get it done right......

Old ones are hard to find, that have not been painted...a nice pink LOL LOL 

=========


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## jerrymayfield (Sep 25, 2004)

If the finish is shellac then it could easily be applied in the kitchen. Shellac is the only finish I would use inside the house. The solvent is alcohol and it drys very fast. It appears that some of the veneer is worn or gone. As a general rule all repairs are made before applying any finish. This appears to be a big job. If the finish is shellac it is probably seedlac. Use alcohol to test.

Good Luck

Jerry


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## karateed (Feb 7, 2006)

Hi BJ, Kristin, JerryMayField,

BJ,

Thanks for your concern. One of the things I promised myself before I die is to refinish and get repaired an old piano to give it back to the world to have another 100 years of music. To do that, the piano would have to have a good sound board, be repairable and be able to be finished. This piano qualifies so now's my chance. I have to do this for my own inner peace but I do thank you for your advice.

Kristen,

I hear ya....I've actually tuned this piano in a rather crude way. It came out ok, or so I thought until my daughter's friend who was taking a piano mechanic's course tuned it for me....well, needless to say, I have to learn to tune right or.....as I will probably do....get a tuner in to do the job. You're right about the action, I've had the whole thing apart a few times. There are quite a few delicate parts in the action so we'll see about what I may be able to recreate/manufacture. I can understand why you wouldn't want to go near a piano again after doing all that you did. It's a lot.

JerryMayField,

I will definitely do the repairs before refinishing...like I said, I expect it to be a fairly long process, but that's ok, I'm sure I'll learn a lot.

Thanks all for your input.

Ed......


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