# I know it's possible, but how....



## OutoftheWoodwork (Oct 4, 2012)

Router Table Users:

Everyone here knows I use my router for signs; never on the table. Well, a necessity (I believe) is going arise where I need to use my table. "For....." you may ask, waiting for me to get to the point... :lol:

I need to use it as a jointer... I have a sign request that is going to require me to put five (maybe 6) of my dog ear fencing pieces together to do the sign below. The vertical lines indicate the boards. I *know* the last section is not the same width; so don't bother bringing that up (A-Type's) :lol: The sign is currently the exact width they've requested. It will have to be adjusted. This is for layout/design purposes. They like what I designed, we're good. Anyway, problem is, I don't know how to use the router this way. No complicated gobbledy **** allowed. Do we have a video here on the forum how to do this, or do I have to go to YouTube and suffer through videos of multiple ways before I find the correct way how to do this? If I have to go to YouTube to find this, please suggest a knowledgeable person to watch instead of being tormented?


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## boogalee (Nov 24, 2010)

Barb

Steve Ramsey shows you how.


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## OutoftheWoodwork (Oct 4, 2012)

Thank you Al... Shame on me for forgetting Steve. He's one of my favorites! DUH! *face palm*


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

More info: when you laminate the pieces together look at the end grain and join with with the curve going up on one with the curve going down on the next and alternate that way. That will help to keep the sign as a whole from curling one way or the other. Use of a slotting cutter on the mating edges and addition of splines will make it stronger if it will be subjected to any weather.


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

Barb...there is a key point not to forget...you should only router-joint one side of the board. Once router-jointed, square up the other side with the table saw, preferably with a blade that leaves a nice finish...

Also, as you transfer pressure from the infeed side to the outfeed side don't completely lift away from the infeed side...you need to keep some pressure on the infeed...

Maybe you know this already...


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

I do it with a router, but you'll probably want to go with Steve Ramsey's method, rather than mine. :laugh2:

What I do is mark the piece I need straight. Then I tack a straightedge along that line, then run it thru the router. Gives a nice straight side. Most of my stuff needs parallel sides, so do the other side the same way. A bit tricky getting the straightedge positioned just right, sometime more than one try, but it does come out accurate. I don't have a fence, probably never will, unless it's a piece of 2X4 clamped down, so this works just fine for me. 

Actually, the straightedges I use (homemade) are all parallel on each side, so I just rough cut the piece I want to produce, and just rout both sides. Nail holes are never seen in the finished product, they are always inside and out of sight.


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## OutoftheWoodwork (Oct 4, 2012)

Nickp said:


> you should only router-joint one side of the board. Once router-jointed, square up the other side with the table saw, preferably with a blade that leaves a nice finish...
> 
> Also, as you transfer pressure from the infeed side to the outfeed side don't completely lift away from the infeed side...you need to keep some pressure on the infeed...
> 
> Maybe you know this already...


Nick, I don't have table saw. I have no choice but to do both sides, really. As for keeping pressure on the infeed, thanks. No, I didn't know that. I've used a table ONCE, and I really didn't use it, Mike did. (We were doing all those wine bottle holders.)


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## OutoftheWoodwork (Oct 4, 2012)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> More info: when you laminate the pieces together look at the end grain and join with with the curve going up on one with the curve going down on the next and alternate that way. That will help to keep the sign as a whole from curling one way or the other. Use of a slotting cutter on the mating edges and addition of splines will make it stronger if it will be subjected to any weather.


Strictly an inside sign, she said, Chuck, but I will still use that technique. Thanks.


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## CharleyL (Feb 28, 2009)

Alternating the board grain will keep the sign from curving severely when/if it warps. The sign will become wavy instead, which is better because you will still be able to read the sign, but this is a worst case situation for wood warping. If used inside only, it shouldn't warp at all if finish is applied to seal on both sides and edges. The best choices of wood to minimize warping is wood with straight grain lines running across the narrow dimension of the wood. I have frequently bought wider boards and cut them to remove the center tightly curved pith area to get boards with the straighter across the board grain lines. Quarter sawn wood better achieves this when the boards are cut, but at greater material cost and difficulty to find. I have ripped construction lumber in 1 1/2" wide strips, then turned each strip 90 deg and glued it back together to get the grain the way that I wanted for better stability. This method made some great looking and stable 1 1/2 thick pine table tops that have remained flat for the past 30 + years. 

My experience when trying to joint with a router involved using a piece of straight steel angle clamped to the board, positioned so as to remove about 1/16 of an inch of material with a straight bit and router running along the steel angle. We then turned the angle around and did the same for the opposite edge of the board, but this time we set the angle to be parallel with the first edge, and the result was boards with parallel and well jointed edges. It worked much better than I expected it to. I have a jointer in my shop, but used this method when away from my shop and helping a son with a project. I had a saw and router with me, but no jointer, so I came up with this method and it worked much better than I expected it to.

Charley


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## Gene Howe (Jul 10, 2007)

Barb, getting boards parallel cannot be over emphasized. Especially in a multi board glue up. 
Theo's method is the simplest but, careful measurement from the freshly jointed side is key. 
Plus, you'll need to switch to a pattern bit for the second cut.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Once the edges are straight I use the biscuit jointer, it guarantees perfect alignment and a quality glue is stronger than the wood, it really is, would I lie to you Barb?


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

another method...

.


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## neville9999 (Jul 22, 2010)

Barbara you haven't said how wide and high it is but as you are suggesting you will use many boards then I think it will be wide, I think you should consider anouther solution, joining up small boards like that and having them stay flat and straight over a long time is not easy, it can can done but has to be done the correct way so much of what has been suggested about reversing each second board is correct but do think about getting some wider boards for this one where the timber is thicker and wider to begin with where you can do it with less joins, I don't know how thick your wood is but if you got some wood that was 1 1/4 thick then the thicker edge will give a better join that could last longer, use the best glue you have at least as good as tightbond2. Joining up a lot of small boards and having the stay true and flat is a lot of work so thicker wider wood will be better to use. N


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## TenGees (Sep 12, 2012)

If there is a budget for the job, maybe consider a 'pine project panel'. These are already glued up into various sizes. They're available at the big box stores. I made the tops for small tables and a boot bench with them.


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## gmercer_48083 (Jul 18, 2012)

Barbara, Since you are using individual cedar fence panels, I am wondering if joined together, are the panels going to end up even with each other? The fence panels I've seen are kinda rough and random. Not having a table saw, You could use a straight cutting guide with a circular saw to straighten up the edges good enough for gluing, after all it's not a table top where the seams should be flawless. You could refine the edge further with a hand plane. I think using a router table as a jointer is frought with difficulties, such as the fences would have to be long and extremely straight. Not to mention how hard it would be to adjust the fence to produce a seamless joint. Once the edges are made straight with a circular saw, they could be routed with a straight router bit using a straight edge similar to the circular saw guide but even that would not produce a flawless joint. Not having a jointer, I think I would book fold 2 boards, clamp them together then hand plane the edges holding the plane as square as possible.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

TenGees said:


> If there is a budget for the job, maybe consider a 'pine project panel'. These are already glued up into various sizes. They're available at the big box stores. I made the tops for small tables and a boot bench with them.


That is how I have made several projects Paul but the price is the problem.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Harry; these 'project panels', as Paul called them, are relatively cheap up here. They're made from Pine, a very prolific softwood in Canada.
Our current most available construction lumber is designated 'SPF'...Spruce, Pine, Fir mixed species; all from the Interior of BC.
https://www.rona.ca/en/shelf---laminated-shelf-5120072--1
Canadian Species - CWC
A little shopping around would probably yield cheaper prices than what's in that link. The product may not be available where Barb is...?

PINE FOREST:


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## kp91 (Sep 10, 2004)

There are 2 grades of the glued up pine project panels at the BIG stores near me. The stain grade ones are a little more expensive (but cheaper than a plain pine board), but the paint grade ones are very reasonable. The thickness is sometimes closer to 5/8 inches, but they are great for signs and other rustic projects.


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## furboo (Oct 12, 2015)

OutoftheWoodwork said:


> Nick, I don't have table saw. I have no choice but to do both sides, really.


Barb, without a table saw, it's going to be difficult to get the sides of the boards perfectly parallel, although maybe you don't care about that. If it doesn't need to be perfect, I'd use a circular saw with a guide for the second edge. Do you have a circular saw? They're a lot cheaper/smaller than a table saw and worth having...I got by with one for years.

And when you say "do both sides", I want to make sure that you're not thinking of doing one edge, feeding right-to-left on the router table (the correct feed direction), and THEN pulling the fence back away from the bit to the desired board width and feeding the board in left-to-right (to avoid a "climb cut") to do the other edge. Don't do that...that second cut is very dangerous, in either direction. In my younger-and-brilliant years, I once thought it was a great idea, but fortunately I asked someone before trying it :surprise:


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## OutoftheWoodwork (Oct 4, 2012)

You lost me Rob. No, I won't put the wood through the wrong way. I have no f* idea how the f* I'm supposed to do this since everyone is saying I can't do both sides with the router, and without a table saw (which I'm scared to death of to begin with), and have no access to one anyway. No longer frustrated, getting to the p* off mode, trying to figure this one out...


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## furboo (Oct 12, 2015)

Sorry Barb, didn't mean the "wrong way" comment to be taken that way...it's not so much the wrong way, as it is putting the board between the fence and bit. But never mind...you obviously weren't considering this.

You can do both sides with the router table, it's just that the two sides generally won't be parallel, unless they started that way. For your application, I'm not sure it would look that bad if they weren't perfectly parallel. But if you also don't have a circular saw, I'm out of ideas, except going to a lumber yard that will dimension the lumber the way you want it (for a price).


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## woodknots (Mar 7, 2012)

Barb:

Both Theo (post #6) and Charley (post #9) gave you suggestions on how you could joint both sides of your boards.

In Steve Ramsey's video, he shows how to joint one side of the board - I've done it that way but now I actually use a jointer - nevertheless, it can be done.

Questions for you: do the boards have to be parallel? Are you using a router table or free-hand? If you are using a router table, does it have a split fence and is the out feed fence adjustable? You've addressed your post to "router table users" however in your post #7 you "used a table once but didn't really use it" - did you mean a router table or a table saw?

Here's a picture of my adjustable router table fence - the out feed side moves in and out - if I want to joint with it, I place a piece of laminate behind the out feed fence, which moves if towards the front of the table. Using a pattern bit, the out feed fence is placed in line with the bearing, so that when you run a piece of along the fence, a small sliver will be removed from the wood. The reason the out feed fence is in line with the bearing is so that as the wood goes through, the out feed side, which is now narrower, can be flush with the out feed fence.


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## OutoftheWoodwork (Oct 4, 2012)

Okay, now that I'm calmed a bit (decided not to face this until I actually got contacted again by the customer)

If you look at the pattern I included in my original post, you can see the slats of the wood, which is what she wants. She's going with a "rustic" feel to the sign, so she doesn't want the wood to be flawlessly joined, if that makes sense.

The size, if you count the "boards" in the pattern, and take into account that I said it would take 5 (maybe 6) boards of dog ear fencing which is 5 1/2" wide each..... that makes it approximately 30" x 30". After talking to the customer, she's good with it being 24" x 24", which will make it (I think) easier to put the wood together.

Today I'm going to go out to the shed, and attempt this (not so little) feat. For the first time in a long time, I'm not looking forward to doing my woodworking. Wish I had experienced hands walking me through this; but - oh well. If you hear a female cursing her brains out (even those of you "Down Under" and "Across the Pond") it will be me.

@furboo Rob, yup, I have a circular saw. @vchiarelli Vince, only the sign pattern will be free hand. I have a router table (though I've never used it). I want to say my daughter got it for me for Christmas one year many moons ago. Does not have the variable fencing (to the one who asked - was it Rob, I think? Sorry. Memory is rotten. ) So I'll have to create the little "shim" for the adjustment. I did notice that on the video (wherever it was that I saw it; ) although I didn't know at the time when I watched the video what kind of fence I had on my table. I have a folder dedicated to things I need to make up for the "shop" in jigs, tools, etc. as I find them. The list keeps growing of things I need to make. But to make them, most require a table to saw to construct UUUGH!!!!! 

*My Current Tools*: 
7 1/2" single bevel miter saw (sucks big time-I hate it. Really miss my 12" Rigid)
DeWalt Plunge Trim Router
Two (2) Craftsman Fixed Routers (One in the table, and one for other uses)
Ryobi Bench Belt/Disc Sander
Palm Sander (Ryobi, I think) and a Porter Cable Palm Sander
16" Excalibur Scroll Saw
DeWalt Circular Saw & Sawzall
B & D Jig Saw (Ken says I need a new one, though)
DeWalt Corded and Cordless Power Drills
Numerous hand tools
and one broken, useless Band Saw.

Still needed:
Table Saw (*dreading that one*)
Band Saw
Drill Press (_To replace the one that died_)
10" Compound Miter Saw (_to replace useless current miter saw_ that I actually broke the metal fence on it... guy at Tools Direct almost fainted when we showed him. He said I accomplished the impossible feat - leave it to me.... :lol: )
Planer
Jointer
Lathe (I want to make yarn bowls and pens - my own projects)


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## boogalee (Nov 24, 2010)

Barb

If you have a circular you can make a jig to cut straight edges (track saw).






or






It can be made of scraps. I would recommend 1/2" plywood.

You can also setup the other side for your router.


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## OutoftheWoodwork (Oct 4, 2012)

Thanks for the vids, Al. Ken is really interested in making that, telling me to hang on to it.


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## MikeMa (Jul 27, 2006)

Reading through the thread, I understand the concern with the table saw. I looked at your tool needs list. May I suggest putting the band saw as a higher priority to the table saw? A well aligned blade and fence on a band saw will produce rip cuts that are just as accurate as a table saw. A quick pass with a hand plane will smooth out the cut for you. Or if you are able to spend a bit more on the blade, get a resaw king carbide blade, which I understand cut as clean as a blade on a table saw. However it can be a very pricey blade depending on the size of saw you go with.

I have a 14" Grizzly (G0555P) band saw with a 1 hp motor. I do rip and resaw cuts on it frequently, and it does very well. It compliments my table saw very nicely especially when working with smaller pieces that would be scary to do on the table saw. If you are getting a band saw in lieu of a table saw, consider a 17" or bigger saw simply for the larger table capacity. Compliment it with a good miter saw and router/table setup you can do just about everything a table saw can.

However, should you go down the path of a table saw, here are some tips:
Take a class on them, and learn to use the safely. 
ALWAYS use the riving knife or splitter. This prevents the #1 safety issue on a table saw, which is kickback.
Invest in a Microjig Grr-Ripper (or 2). At the very least make a good push block. A push stick will come with the table saw. Its place is in the trash can. You can make a better designed one than what is included with the saw.
Before switching the saw on, think through the cut. For rips, make sure the work piece is stable against the fence. (This is where the splitter/riving knife helps out considerably) For cross cuts, make sure the work piece is stable against the miter gauge. For all cuts, make sure the piece lays flat on the table.
Keep you hands and fingers out line of the blade. Use push blocks, push sticks, or a featherboard to assist.
Keep your blade CLEAN and SHARP.
Keep your body out of alignment of the work piece, so if you do get a kickback, you are out of the line of fire.
Featherboards are great to help hold the work piece against the fence, but MUST be used BEFORE the blade.
Sometimes you will get a piece that during the cut will pinch the blade and even stall the blade. Know where the power switch is to turn off the saw, and do NOT let go of the work piece until the saw is powered down. A riving knife/splitter should prevent this from happening.


I intentionally did not mention sawstop in this list. While the technology is great, it still does not prevent all types of injury that can occur, especially with kickback. The sawstop does absolutely add a degree of insurance in case something happens, but like with any type of insurance, the goal is to not need it. The list above will help make sure that it isn't needed.

Finally, there is nothing wrong a good healthy fear of using ANY tool, as long as you are able use that fear to learn how to use it safely and confidently. And that is true with all tools, not just the table saw and the ones you plug in. For example the one time a shop accident sent me to the ER for stitches happened because a dovetail saw slipped off the work piece and into a finger. My Dr. told me if it had hit any higher, I could have hit some nerves and muscles that would have required surgery to repair.


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## comp56 (Mar 30, 2017)

I do a lot of larger table tops 60" dia. ect ect and aside from the crown up/down I also cut a 1/8" slot on the bottom side 2" or 3" in from the edges about 1/8" deep to reduce movement. this will help with a smaller sign as well.....


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