# Box finger joints



## Knothead47 (Feb 10, 2010)

I think there was something in Wood magazine a few years ago where a jig was made to cut finger joints on a TS with a dado blade. The article went on to show overlapping pieces so the finger joints could be cut at the same time on two corners of the box. Hope I'm making sense. Thought the same could be done on a router table.
Thanks.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Knothead47 said:


> I think there was something in Wood magazine a few years ago where a jig was made to cut finger joints on a TS with a dado blade. The article went on to show overlapping pieces so the finger joints could be cut at the same time on two corners of the box. Hope I'm making sense. Thought the same could be done on a router table.
> Thanks.


Will this help???

.


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## CharleyL (Feb 28, 2009)

Stick's jig is only one of many that you can find by Google searching "box joint jig" and "finger joint jig" on the internet. Look through them and decide which one you like best.
Most of these jigs can be used on either a table saw or a router table. 

The trick with these is to make the "key" and the "space" between the key and the saw blade or router bit EXACTLY the same width that the saw blade or router bit cuts (and not the width of the blade or bit). You will also need to make the jig so there is no side to side play in your guiding method. Any slop or side-to-side movement of the sliding method of your jig will produce errors in the joint. If you stack the sides of your box on the jig and clamp them to the jig correctly it's possible to cut two corners of the box at the same time, but don't try this until you get the jig adjusted and have made a few successful box joint corners (A side to B side) that fit together well.

I've made more than a dozen different versions of these jigs over the years. Some were great and others not so great, but I now have an Incra I-Box jig. It's expensive, but it made cutting box joints of any size from 1/8" to about 1" per pin easy to set up for and easy to use, and it can be used on either a router table or a table saw (I prefer my table saw and Freud SBOX8 blade for 1/4 and 3/8 pins). Since getting the I-Box jig, all of my previous box joint jigs have become firewood.

Charley


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## gjackson52 (Jul 4, 2015)

I thought this was a very clever jig, but I don't think my skills are good enough to make it  

Screw advance box joint jig


Gary


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## PhilBa (Sep 25, 2014)

I agree with Charley. a good quality and easy to use box joint jig is way to go. I use an Incra LS positioner on my router table which makes it a snap. You can build box joint jigs that will work. Just be aware that you need good precision or you will have disappointing results. I've also built box joint jigs and it took a couple of tries to get to the point where I got decent results.

By the way, fingers joint has several meanings - in the US it usually means a joint for joining two boards to make a longer board like this








Though, I have heard UK folks use that term for box joints like this


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

You are correct Phil. What most people call a box joint is better known as a finger joint. If you do a web search for finger joint that is overwhelmingly what the results will be. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finger_joint

The tapered finger splice joint is what many people like to call just a finger joint. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splice_joint and this one https://www.google.ca/search?q=tape...&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=4tthVra6GsHCjwP0pJHABQ


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Box joints are squared off regardless of size. Finger joints taper.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Mike said:


> Box joints are squared off regardless of size. Finger joints taper.


Not according to guys like Tage Frid Mike and he had more experience and knowledge of woodworking than you and me put together. Plus google searches don't bear you out. Even Wikipedia doesn't agree with you. "Finger joints are also called box joints" by almost every reference I have ever seen.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> Not according to guys like Tage Frid Mike and he had more experience and knowledge of woodworking than you and me put together. Plus google searches don't bear you out. Even Wikipedia doesn't agree with you. "Finger joints are also called box joints" by almost every reference I have ever seen.


thanks...
and agreed..


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Yes Chuck, there is a great deal of inaccurate information out there. There are many "experts" on either side of the question of what to call the joints. Manufacturers almost universally use the descriptions I stated for their bits and jigs. This isn't something I pulled out of thin air, it is based on researching many companies web sites. This is also the terminology used by Bob and Rick Rosendahl who supported the formation of routerforums. I believe after 14 seasons on PBS they qualify as experts too.


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## Knothead47 (Feb 10, 2010)

Stick, that is it. There was one that showed overlapping two pieces and cutting two pieces at once so they match up. thanks to all for their replies! Box joints? Finger Joints? Whatever it takes to make a nice box.
Should have titled the thread a bit different, too.
"Box or finger joints for building a box"


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

A box joint bit is nothing more than a finger joint bit named such for marketing purposes..


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## BernieW (Sep 12, 2006)

Yep finger joint or box joint is one and the same. Somebody thought a fancy name like finger joint would sell more bits ($$$$$).


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## sunnybob (Apr 3, 2015)

TwoSkies57 said:


> A box joint bit is nothing more than a finger joint bit named such for marketing purposes..


not so. 
A finger joint is one that has sections tapering to a point, and is designed to increase the gluing surface of a butt joint.

A box joint has square cutters to give a strong and decorative corner joint.

The names have become mixed up through common usage, but they are two separate cutters to do two separate jobs


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

sunnybob said:


> not so.
> A finger joint is one that has sections tapering to a point, and is designed to increase the gluing surface of a butt joint.
> 
> A box joint has square cutters to give a strong and decorative corner joint.
> ...



Can't argue your points in the least..simply a design change to accommodate the market..


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Mike said:


> Yes Chuck, there is a great deal of inaccurate information out there. There are many "experts" on either side of the question of what to call the joints. Manufacturers almost universally use the descriptions I stated for their bits and jigs. This isn't something I pulled out of thin air, it is based on researching many companies web sites. This is also the terminology used by Bob and Rick Rosendahl who supported the formation of routerforums. I believe after 14 seasons on PBS they qualify as experts too.


Mike the term box joint might replace finger joint someday but it hasn't yet. All of the woodworkers that I consider to be classically trained experts use the term finger joints. Wiki even says finger joint. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finger_joint
Finger Joints
Multi-Purpose Tablesaw Jig - Fine Woodworking Interactive
Marking Out a Finger Joint (Part 1)


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Chuck, I already posted the photos from MLCS and Whiteside. Here are the results from other sites. As you can see they all show box joints being square and finger joints being tapered. Members need definitions that actually get them what they want. This is the reason that these definitions were placed into the forums glossary. All the major tool companies agree on this.


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

To a large extent this is somewhat funny, if not pathetic. Yet somehow interesting. 

here is a short list of established, well credentialed sources who make no distinction between box and finger joint. 
Simply put, the two terms are quite often interchangeable. 

WoodWorkers Guild of America; Woodworking Joints: Which One Should You Use

Gary Rogowski: The Complete Illustrated Guide to Joinery (A standard in joinery literature); The Complete Illustrated Guide to Joinery by Gary Rogowski - Complete Illustrated Guide Series - Woodworking - Techniques - Hardcover Book - Taunton Store

Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodworking_joints

ShopSmith: Incra I-Box? Comparison To Convention Box Joint Method

LeeValley: Incra® I-Box Finger Joint Jig - Lee Valley Tools

Leigh joinery jigs: https://www.leighjigs.com/super_fingers.php

FineWoodworking: Multi-Purpose Tablesaw Jig - Fine Woodworking Interactive

Now, I have no names to drop and I certainly don't pretend to have any industry contacts to reference, but 
what I do got is common sense. And that is what the members need to use. Just a lil common sense. This 
clearly if not definitively illustrates that a common joint may be referred to by various names. The names may
be local, regional or even national, this does not mean they are universal and absolute. A tapered finger joint
is completely different than a finger/box joint. Application is completely different. Yet the names of the joints
are confusingly similar. 
I have always just considered a box joint a box joint and a finger joint a finger joint until this marvelous display of
editorial buffoonery. The fact is that the two can be and in many circles are just one in the same. Just because
terms and definitions were laid out in a long lost glossary don't mean they were/are correct. All it means is that the
author of the definitions believed it to be a certain way or to have fit within certain criteria. Inquires like answers are not always
black and white, one person and/or source should not be expected to be the definitive source of all things wood working. 
As is said quite often in here, there is more than one way to skin a cat, and at least a couple dozen ways telling you how to do it.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

and some are worried about political/religious content posts/threads...

*SNORK!!!*


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## sunnybob (Apr 3, 2015)

TwoSkies57 said:


> To a large extent this is somewhat funny, if not pathetic. Yet somehow interesting.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Apart from becoming a little overheated here, I ask you one question, answer yes or no...
Can you make a CORNER box joint with a finger joint cutter?


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## Moz (Nov 13, 2015)

Fight! Fight! *grabs popcorn*
Sorry, Forum entertainment is always to be appreciated...

I am SO glad that my naivete is just that, and not stupidity (for once!) Hooray!
Coming from bee forums, I knew them as box joints. But then I started reading on other sites (like Shopsmith and WWGOA and FineWoodworking), I thought maybe I was wrong. 

I kinda am, and kinda ain't. But it's NOT me! YAY!!!!
English changes according to usage.
Personally, I like the distinction of "Tapered Finger Joints" to clarify those not square, and will clarify that point if I use "finger joint," but in general, will stick to box joint for the square ones I will be making.

~M


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## Moz (Nov 13, 2015)

sunnybob said:


> Apart from becoming a little overheated here, I ask you one question, answer yes or no...
> Can you make a CORNER box joint with a finger joint cutter?


Of course you can!
Just don't expect it to be 'gap free,' is all...
This is NOT tapered finger joints, but gives an approximation of the gap idea...








And, those tapered gaps would be a deliberate design choice...

Here's one using Tapered Finger Joints...









~M


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

I _hate_ "finger jointed" lumber! 'Nuff said.
The guys that _invented_ that crap should have been fingerjointed...


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## Moz (Nov 13, 2015)

DaninVan said:


> I _hate_ "finger jointed" lumber! 'Nuff said.


WHY? It does its intended job, so why the hate?
~M


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## Moz (Nov 13, 2015)

OOOh. I think I may have found something...
The Wood Knack: March 2015
It's based off this design:
Single Blade Box Joint Jig Plans | The WoodFather
With some nice modifications (I like the handle).

And unlike most of the jigs I've been seeing (including the Rockler), you can make BIG joints with it. I'm looking at 1" 'fingers,' on average...

~M


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## sunnybob (Apr 3, 2015)

Moz said:


> Fight! Fight! *grabs popcorn*
> Sorry, Forum entertainment is always to be appreciated...
> 
> I am SO glad that my naivete is just that, and not stupidity (for once!) Hooray!
> ...


 Moz, youve grasped the important point here, its a discussion. To inform and enlighten. If 50 people get it wrong, does that make it right?
But the second most important point is that the two are NOT the same, and are (mostly) NOT interchangeable.

The box joint cutter makes corner joints for boxes (the clue is in the title).
It can make "nice" corner joints, it can also make extra surface glue areas for side by side joints if the wood is sufficiently thick.

The finger cutter is specifically designed to give the maximum gluing surface area for a side by side butt joint.
As the pictures prove its a lousy box joint maker.
I'm sure youve heard of the saying that America and England are two countries divided by a common language? This is such a case.


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

just smiles and moves on...........


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Moz said:


> OOOh. I think I may have found something...
> The Wood Knack: March 2015
> It's based off this design:
> Single Blade Box Joint Jig Plans | The WoodFather
> ...


Most of the purchased jigs have a limited range of finger sizes. A home made jig can be any size you want. I saw a test quite a while back about whether finger size affected joint strength and it had very little effect between fingers about 1/8" to 3/8 or 1/2". I don't think they tested fingers larger than that.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Moz; the finger jointed lumber is reasonably strong in longitudinal compression but a disaster when the load is applied perpendicular to the joint (tension).
Would _you_ walk out on a finger jointed plank, 10' off the ground? Sure, it _might_ hold ...but if it _doesn't_ 'somebody's gonna get hurt'.
All the Engineering reports in the World wouldn't get me to step out on that plank. And this from the guy that swears by the strength of wood glues.
It's not the glue I don't trust, it's the severed wood fibres that'll let go.... (that's my story and I'm sticking to it!)


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Moz, please don't mistake a spirited discussion for a fight. I hold Chuck in the highest regard. He is sincere in his beliefs as am I. We both have valid points for your consideration. Many sites say either/or on this subject while manufacturers have standardized the terms. Whose lead to follow on this topic? Woodworkers or manufacturers? If this leaves any doubt in your mind please read my quote.


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## Moz (Nov 13, 2015)

Mike said:


> Moz, please don't mistake a spirited discussion for a fight.


Oh noes, Mike. Until I see blood, flying teeth, and LOTS of snarky personal remarks, I generally don't settle into my recliner to watch the pugilism...

But ya gotta admit, this subtle difference in terminology has gotten a few members slightly heated.

Me? I call em what best works, or best fits in with the situation, and revert to "Thingy," or "Whatchamahootie," if I don't have, or can't remember the appropriate term...

you say tow-may-toe, I say tow-may-toe... ozer says kumquat...
All works out if the router is unplugged...
I tend to forget how the Internet has shortcomings conveying humor and/or sarcasm.

No harm, no foul, truly.
Apologies if my warped humor was misconstrued...

~M


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Warped humour is the norm here...


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## TenGees (Sep 12, 2012)

What about a zipper joint?


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## Semipro (Mar 22, 2013)

>. Go online to a tool store ( anyone of your choosing ) type finger joint router bit then type in box joint router bit and look at the difference!


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## Knothead47 (Feb 10, 2010)

Man, I didn't intend for the thread to go this long. It seems I opened a rather large container of annelids (big can of worms). For me, no matter what the terminology has been determined to be correct or whatever, stick did give a link to the basic information I was looking for through the thread. All I want to do is make some nice boxes with lids for our Lions club drawings.
Thanks, stick!


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## BrianS (Nov 7, 2004)

Semipro said:


> >. Go online to a tool store ( anyone of your choosing ) type finger joint router bit then type in box joint router bit and look at the difference!


Now, that's a great idea....

Rockler sez:

Finger joint bit

and

Box joint cutter set


One is tapered, one has squared ends. Guess which one has the squared off ends.... 

Let's put this one to bed shall we? Before it gets completely out of hand.


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## RJM (Apr 11, 2010)

Language is dynamic (someone already posted this) so meanings will change with usage.

Personally, I like to make a distinction between "box joint" and "finger joint" because it makes it easier to understand what's being said (at least it did before this thread).

I make no distinction between "finger joint" and "tapered finger joint" as I think of them as the same thing. In fact, I've referred to a "box joint" used to make a butt joint as a "squared finger joint".

It seems to me box joints are used to make boxes and although they may technically be a type of finger joint, I don't typically refer to them as such.

A square is a special rectangle. It's also a special case of a rhombus but I typically use the terms square, rectangle and rhombus to mean specific things. It's just easier (like box joint and finger joint).

:no: :grin: :nerd: 0 > :wink: :dance3:


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

BrianS said:


> Now, that's a great idea....
> 
> Rockler sez:
> 
> ...


:no::no: This is too much fun>>

Herb


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## Moz (Nov 13, 2015)

BrianS said:


> ...Let's put this one to bed shall we? *Before it gets completely out of hand.*


Waaayyy too late for that.



RJM60 said:


> Personally, I like to make a distinction between "box joint" and "finger joint" because it makes it easier to understand what's being said (at least it did before this thread).
> 
> I make no distinction between "finger joint" and "tapered finger joint" as I think of them as the same thing. *In fact, I've referred to a "box joint" used to make a butt joint as a "squared finger joint".*


That certainly makes a distinction between "box joint" and "finger joint," yessiree... LOLOL!

~M


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## gjackson52 (Jul 4, 2015)

One thing I wanted to add for what its worth. I have the rockler box joint jig. I was having problems with actually getting the box joint to work. I was doing it on the router table, when I would pull the wood back, the "tooth" would get broken off each time. So when I was done, it looked like a piece of wood with a toothless grin. I think the problem was partially because there is a bit of play in the jig so I wasn't pulling it exactly straight back. I also think I was using the wrong type of bit. I was using a common straight cutting bit. It was pointed out to me that a spiral upcut bit would work better. Just something for Moz when she gets to that point in making box/finger joints.


Gary


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## Semipro (Mar 22, 2013)

@Gary
i think the problem is that when you push the forward you have a backer board, when you pull it back no backer board, so do not pull it back through


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

Semipro said:


> @Gary
> i think the problem is that when you push the forward you have a backer board, when you pull it back no backer board, so do not pull it back through


Gary maybe if you lift it off before you return it thu the bit. I am not a fan of box joints on a router table, I do a lot of them and like the Table saw . Never had that problem with the table saw. But did have when I tried dovetails on the router table.

Herb


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## Moz (Nov 13, 2015)

gjackson52 said:


> ...I also think I was using the wrong type of bit. I was using a common straight cutting bit. It was pointed out to me that a spiral upcut bit would work better. Just something for Moz when she gets to that point in making box/finger joints.
> Gary


Much appreciated, Gary.
I would far rather learn how to do Box Joints on my router than the table saw, because the router makes a nicer inside edge of the cut...

But I had not heard of a "spiral upcut bit," before now. Something new to learn about, thank you!
~M


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## gjackson52 (Jul 4, 2015)

Semipro said:


> @Gary
> i think the problem is that when you push the forward you have a backer board, when you pull it back no backer board, so do not pull it back through


I think you are right. I got past my problem using a butt joint. Doesn't look quite as good, but since my wife was planning on painting the project anyway...didn't really matter all that much.


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## gjackson52 (Jul 4, 2015)

Herb Stoops said:


> Gary maybe if you lift it off before you return it thu the bit. I am not a fan of box joints on a router table, I do a lot of them and like the Table saw . Never had that problem with the table saw. But did have when I tried dovetails on the router table.
> 
> Herb


Good advice Herb. When I next try box joints, I will do that. With winter here, I plan to get back to my dust deputy project. 


Gary


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## Moz (Nov 13, 2015)

Watching YT vids, I have seen a couple of them now with varying bits of tear out, and for the first time, caught someone talking about using a "spiral bit," which is evidently recommended for box joints...
So instead of a dial indicator to check my fence alignments, I will invest those dollars towards a spiral bit. 

And so my bit collection grows...
~M


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

"And so my bit collection grows..."
~M
Bit by bit, eh?


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## Moz (Nov 13, 2015)

DaninVan said:


> "And so my bit collection grows..."
> ~M
> Bit by bit, eh?


Booooo... (Ba dum bum, tsss!) drum noise.

Okay, ROUTER BIT QUESTION:
a 3/4" spiral bit is too far out of my budget at $60 and up.

Can I get by with a 3/8" spiral cut bit, and just make two passes to make the gap/tooth 3/4" wide?

From what I've read, _in general,_ you want your teeth/gaps to be the same size as the wood, in this case, 1x10's, meaning they are 3/4" thick.

While I could just make a poop load more teeth, I'd rather have the larger size to make fabrication easier when I glue and staple/brad the boxes together.
But if it is impractical to try to make a larger opening with the smaller bit, They will just be more of a "comb box joint" set up.

~M


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Herb Stoops said:


> Gary maybe if you lift it off before you return it thu the bit. *I am not a fan of box joints on a router table, I do a lot of them and like the Table saw .* Never had that problem with the table saw. But did have when I tried dovetails on the router table.
> 
> Herb


and move to the head of the class...
do them on a Leigh D4R...


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## Moz (Nov 13, 2015)

Stick486 said:


> and move to the head of the class...
> do them on a Leigh D4R...


NUUUUuuu Sticky...Head of the Class? Nuh-uh.

Router box joints have definite advantages over Table saw.
*Less expensive - No dado blade set needed. (I've read Dado blade sets are prohibited in Europe. Wow)
*Less noisy - 'nuff said
*No 'bat wings' 
*Safer - A somewhat moot point, being they are both dangerous.

Generally, what I have read is that it is pretty much just personal preference, but the Router does seem to edge out the table saw, even with the additional hassle of a backing board or spiral cut bit.

It is only because of the expressed general preference for Router cut Box joints, that I bought a router table first, and found all of you here.

Class dismissed...lol!
~M


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

Stick486 said:


> and move to the head of the class...
> do them on a Leigh D4R...


You can do box joints on the dovetail jig too. I like dovetail jigs, The Leigh is a little above my skill level and pocket book, but there are others that work for me. 
That is the only way I would make box joints with a router.

A table saw with a dodo blade or a box joint blade is so easy to set up and gives outstanding results.

I have simple box joint jigs that go from 1/8-3/4" that just clamp to my miter gage and away I go.

A bit cutting thru sideways 3/4"X3/4" scares the heck out of me, where as a saw blade chopping downward with the grain is more natural. 
Also if you have to make two passes to cut each tooth, you are going to end up with a funny looking non fitting box joint. Just a tiny error from one tooth to the next in one pass is disaster in itself, and I can't imagine what 2 passes per tooth would give.

Herb


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## Moz (Nov 13, 2015)

Herb Stoops said:


> Also if you have to make two passes to cut each tooth, you are going to end up with a funny looking non fitting box joint. Just a tiny error from one tooth to the next in one pass is disaster in itself, and I can't imagine what 2 passes per tooth would give.
> Herb


That is what I wondered. TY, Herb. More teeth it shall be at 3/8 instead of 3/4.

At least for now. I'll be trying both of them, and probably making at least 2-3 different styles of jig to see which one will work the best.

Since I will be in "sawdust mode," before actually committing 'good wood' to the cause, I will have a chance to see what works the best to give me clean tight joints. Even painted, nothing looks worse to my eye, than 'gappy' box joint beehives. Even swarm traps...
That's what started me on this damn hobby anyway. $25 for a 'budget' 5-frame Nuc with horrid joint gaps had me saying, "I know I can do better."
~M


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Moz said:


> NUUUUuuu Sticky...Head of the Class? Nuh-uh.
> 
> Router box joints have definite advantages over Table saw.
> *Less expensive - No dado blade set needed. (I've read Dado blade sets are prohibited in Europe. Wow)
> ...


like mentioned before, what's up w/ this sticky...

I take it you haven't used a D4R...


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

"like mentioned before, what's up w/ this sticky.."
-Stick
I think you're stuck with it


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

DaninVan said:


> "like mentioned before, what's up w/ this sticky.."
> -Stick
> I think you're stuck with it


looks lie it,,


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## Moz (Nov 13, 2015)

Look at that cute avatar...Can there be any doubt???

If I could afford that Leigh, I would have a house with a fully dedicated workshop and all kinds of nice tools.
I'm debating whether to try a straight bit or up swirl as I contemplate which of a half dozen various jigs to try...

So no. not yet.
~M


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

Moz said:


> That is what I wondered. TY, Herb. More teeth it shall be at 3/8 instead of 3/4.
> 
> At least for now. I'll be trying both of them, and probably making at least 2-3 different styles of jig to see which one will work the best.
> 
> ...



And the bees will like it too.:smile::smile:

Herb


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## PhilBa (Sep 25, 2014)

gjackson52 said:


> Good advice Herb. When I next try box joints, I will do that. With winter here, I plan to get back to my dust deputy project.
> 
> 
> Gary


Gary & Herb, I make my [squared off, rectangular, non-tapered 0] box joints on the router table and don't have a problem. I never get tearout when pulling the workpieces back. I think it's because I clamp the workpieces to the right angle fixture that slides on the fence. The workpieces stay clamped to the fixture and only the fence gets moved so there is no side to side play. (I use an Incra LS). That makes for a good degree of precision. I'm very happy with the results. Some examples.


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## gjackson52 (Jul 4, 2015)

Phil - very nice !!


Gary


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

Gary, I see where the Rockler XL box joint jig has a double backer board to sandwich the board between. 
Rockler XL Router Table Box Joint Jig | Rockler Woodworking and Hardware

Moz-They even do up to 3/4" Box joints with it. 

Phil, great looking boxes, and box joints too. You are a craftsman, I just think that a beginner would do better learning how to do box joints on a table saw. Maybe I am wrong, but the cutting of the box joint is the easy part, laying them out and making them tight is the tough part. If you are off just a hair on the first one the second one is off 2 hairs and so on till the last one is off so much that they don't fit together. And where you start on which edge of the board, and on each end of the board so you don't get one board up and one board down

Herb


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

BernieW said:


> Yep finger joint or box joint is one and the same. Somebody thought a fancy name like finger joint would sell more bits ($$$$$).


No, I don't think so. Try to fit a finger joint (tapers to a point) at a 90 degree angle. Maybe a finger joint is a type of box joint, or vice versa, but they are distinct, and I think finger=tapered is a good distinction. Now, on to the other pages I have not yet read.


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## PhilBa (Sep 25, 2014)

Herb Stoops said:


> Phil, great looking boxes, and box joints too. You are a craftsman, I just think that a beginner would do better learning how to do box joints on a table saw. Maybe I am wrong, but the cutting of the box joint is the easy part, laying them out and making them tight is the tough part. If you are off just a hair on the first one the second one is off 2 hairs and so on till the last one is off so much that they don't fit together. And where you start on which edge of the board, and on each end of the board so you don't get one board up and one board down
> 
> Herb


Thanks for the compliments. Much appreciated. 

My experience is exactly backwards from that, though. Not saying you are wrong (because you are pretty much always right), I just went a different direction.

About a year ago, I made my first box joint with a home built jig on the table saw using a dado blade. Results were disheartening. I was able to tune it up so it would work reasonably well but never got joints that I was super happy with. And making 4 sets of cuts exactly correct was a challenge. Version 2 jig was also on the TS and while it was better, set up and tuning were required each time I used it. So I made a couple of boxes for the shop but nothing that I felt was "brag worthy". One of the key issues is you have to move the workpiece(s) to the next key location which makes it hard to have super consistent cuts - each cut requires exact positioning and pressure. That makes it way easy to get the cascading errors that you pointed out. Also, while the dado was mounted, the TS was out of commission for normal use. 

Then I got the LS system for my RT. HUGE difference. Fast set up, precise repeatable cuts and my TS was usable at the same time. The way you clamp the workpieces makes for a very consistent depth of cut, angle and position relative to the fence. There was a relatively small learning curve but now, with the cut workpieces in hand, I can bang out a complete set of box joints in about 20 minutes with the LS. Set up is just a few minutes and the cutting goes very quick. It's not fool proof but Incra has done a great job of making it easy to be consistent - you just have to be within 1/32" and it locks you into the correct position every time. If I were starting all over again, I'd go straight to the LS or similar positioner and do them on the router table.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Herb Stoops said:


> Gary, I see where the Rockler XL box joint jig has a double backer board to sandwich the board between.
> Rockler XL Router Table Box Joint Jig | Rockler Woodworking and Hardware
> 
> I visited Rockler a week ago and that jig just jumped into my hands and bought itself. Santa will hand it over at Christmas, although my wife says she can just wrap the empty box. I was particularly impressed by the sandwiching setup. I know you can make that jig, but some things I'd rather buy, and this is one of them. I have 19 drawers to make out of 1/2 inch baltic birch, so it will get a workout. I'll review soon. Here's the link: Rockler XL Router Table Box Joint Jig | Rockler Woodworking and Hardware


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## Moz (Nov 13, 2015)

Rockler"s jig is so nice. But Santa is starting to make chocking noises, so I have to slow down. I still need him to buy wood...lol

~M


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Having done some smaller box joint work I know you should be using spiral bits. I ordered a couple in HSS for the new XL jig. I have used carbide spiral bits, but they are extremely fragile. For light duty use, the HSS should last long enough. A little sharpening might also be possible to extend their lives. The XL jig cuts from 1/2 to 3/4 stock, and both bits were less than $25 bucks.


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

DesertRatTom said:


> Herb Stoops said:
> 
> 
> > Gary, I see where the Rockler XL box joint jig has a double backer board to sandwich the board between.
> ...


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Moz said:


> Booooo... (Ba dum bum, tsss!) drum noise.
> 
> Okay, ROUTER BIT QUESTION:
> a 3/4" spiral bit is too far out of my budget at $60 and up.
> ...


High Speed Steel upcut bit was less than 20 bucks. You don't need to go for carbide, and the carbide spiral bits are easily damaged.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Moz said:


> Of course you can!
> Just don't expect it to be 'gap free,' is all...
> This is NOT tapered finger joints, but gives an approximation of the gap idea...
> 
> ...


Looks like a Don't Do This warning to me.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

gjackson52 said:


> One thing I wanted to add for what its worth. I have the rockler box joint jig. I was having problems with actually getting the box joint to work. I was doing it on the router table, when I would pull the wood back, the "tooth" would get broken off each time. So when I was done, it looked like a piece of wood with a toothless grin. I think the problem was partially because there is a bit of play in the jig so I wasn't pulling it exactly straight back. I also think I was using the wrong type of bit. I was using a common straight cutting bit. It was pointed out to me that a spiral upcut bit would work better. Just something for Moz when she gets to that point in making box/finger joints.
> 
> 
> Gary


I had similar problems with their smaller jig. I think you could either use a bit of low friction tape or wax on the miter bars. I also had problems being able to clamp the piece to a sacrificial fence. So, cut a much taller fence and put a little sandpaper on it. Then clamp the workpiece to the tall fence before passing it over the bit. This thing really wants to walk. I also solved this problem on a shop made jig, by putting a layer of aluminum coated duct tape on the side of one runner. The walking problem disappeared. The XL jig has metal runners, but I am likely to wax the miter slots at the first sign of binding.


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

PhilBa said:


> Thanks for the compliments. Much appreciated.
> 
> starting all over again, I'd go straight to the LS or similar positioner and do them on the router table.


Phil, I had to go look up what you were talking about. 

That Incra LS Positioner is like going to a Porche from a Ford. I can see you point of view.

A fellow woodworker has the IBox jig from incra and raves about it too.

Guess I just like my homemade ones and I am used to them.

Herb


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## PhilBa (Sep 25, 2014)

Herb Stoops said:


> Phil, I had to go look up what you were talking about.
> 
> That Incra LS Positioner is like going to a Porche from a Ford. I can see you point of view.
> 
> ...


Yeah, we each get comfy doing it our own way and that's great.

The iBox can be used on the RT or TS and, iirc, can use a regular blade so you don't have set up a dado blade.

By the way, I've seen various used Incra positioners selling on CL for about 1/2 the new price.


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## Knothead47 (Feb 10, 2010)

Lots of good info here. Didn't expect it to go to 71 posts. PhilBa, that is exactly what I want to do. My complements on the boxes!


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## tomp913 (Mar 7, 2014)

Just to stir the pot - this vendor uses Box Joint and Finger Joint the way I understood the difference.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Herb Stoops said:


> DesertRatTom said:
> 
> 
> > What width box joints are you going to make,Tom?
> ...


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

tomp913 said:


> Just to stir the pot - this vendor uses Box Joint and Finger Joint the way I understood the difference.


Vendor`s are using that definition, reference works like Wiki and traditional woodworking books still call it finger joint and tapered finger joint or splice joint since that is the main or possibly only use for that style of finger joint. I think finger joint is used for possibly two reasons. One is that if you interlace the fingers of one hand with the other it looks exactly like that joint and while fingers taper, they don`t go down to fine points. The second reason is that the individual projections that are formed are logically called `fingers , so it stands to reason that if you are making fingers that you are using a finger joint jig to make it with. I saw one member called them teeth, which they also look like, so I suppose we could also call it a tooth making jig. Since we are using that joint to make boxes we are calling it a box joint but dovetails, splines, and simple miter joints are also used to make boxes so why don`t we also call them box joints if you use that for a definition.

Language is constantly evolving and it is entirely possible that box joint will replace finger joint one day but I personally am waiting for guys like Norm Abrams and all the woodworkers who write articles for Fine Woodworking to make the switch. In the meantime it is acceptable to use either term and the rest of us will know what you mean, whether we agree or not.


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

Mike...can you point me to this mystical RF glossary...trying to avoid having my fingers do the walking and falling into a box...

It's come up several times but I've missed out on reading through it...feeling like it's a good book that everybody's read but me...

...link or pdf...?


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Nickp said:


> Mike...can you point me to this mystical RF glossary...trying to avoid having my fingers do the walking and falling into a box...
> 
> It's come up several times but I've missed out on reading through it...feeling like it's a good book that everybody's read but me...
> 
> ...link or pdf...?


I've looked for it to...


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## schnewj (Nov 18, 2013)

tomp913 said:


> Just to stir the pot - this vendor uses Box Joint and Finger Joint the way I understood the difference.


Oooops! You've gone and done it now, Tom!


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## Moz (Nov 13, 2015)

Stick486 said:


> I've looked for it to...


It's not working...
Router Forums - View Single Post - *NEW* Glossary Addon!

Here is the old one:
http://www.routerforums.com/site-help-suggestions/9823-old-glossary-terms.html#post83275

~M


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