# Paralyzed by indecision



## Chris Curl (Feb 13, 2012)

I have been in ths house now for 2 years. My goal all along has been to set up a shop in the garage and be organized and clean about it. I have failed.

Why? I THINK it is mainly because I cannot decide about how to organize it. I go out there, and I stand there for way too long just looking around, paralyzed by indecision how to set it up. That, and there is just too much stuff.

I can't even decide the size of the router table, or if I should make the router table and table saw share a surface, or pretty much anything.

HELP!!!!! I should be really happy, because it is a huge space, but I'm lost.

If this was your space, and you could organize it any way you wanted, how would YOU organize it?


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## Chris Curl (Feb 13, 2012)

here are some of the larger scrap pieces i could use for table tops/surfaces


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## papawd (Jan 5, 2011)

Chris how do You move in there??? I wish I had that much room.. I would spend a weekend getting everything out of there and keep only what Ya want (this is hard to do) That 5'6" space and 20' feet on the wall by the door I would hang 4'x8' peg board to start organizing hand tools, clamps and sucas You slowly move things back in the shop. I would also think hard about some type of dust collection if the doors stay shut.I could not tell from pics but also may want to add lighting then maybe Ya will get a better feel for where things need to go.... Good luck... I am just now really getting a feel in my new shop area and it took me about 5 months to get it right


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## Chris Curl (Feb 13, 2012)

warren, it's hard. in august, i discovered that there was water all over the floor, under the tiles. so i had to move everything around to get the water up. things ended up all over the place as a result and it has continued to go downhill since.

i think you are right: i need to get rid of everything that doesn't belong out there.

unfortunately, i'm not in a position to just take it all out and pile it up in the driveway and let it sit there for a couple weeks while i'm moving things back.. the wife would never allow that. but maybe i can put everything on one side and then only move things back to the other side that belong.

but how to organize it? can the dust collection be good enough that i can have a sawdust creating tools in the middle of the garage and not have the dust settle on everything? i have them up by the garage doors now and open the doors as much as possible to air it out and try to keep the dust from going everywhere.

so i guess if i could really nail the dust collection part, then i guess i have more options about how to set thing up out there.

part of me thinks i should have a long workbench all along the wall across from the alcove, and another part thinks the workbench should in the middle like an island so i can get to it from all sides. then there is the table saw ... that has to be in the middle because of the outfeeding need.

can the router table be built into a workbench along the wall? or would that not work because of outfeeding needs?

thanks for letting me ramble ... just putting these thoughts down has really helped think through my vision for the space. i think would like to have a really long bench, pretty much the whole far wall, and shelving and tool storage on the wall and wood storage and more storage underneath. the miter saw and drill press will be built into the big long bench somehow.


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## curiousgeorge (Nov 6, 2006)

Chris, this is only a suggestion, but IMHO the first thing you need to do is install proper lighting. Working with dangerous tools in an improperly lighted space is not a safe practice. Do a Google search for "shop lighting" to get an idea what you may need for your large shop area. The next thing would be an air filtration unit along with dust collection. The DC only collects some of the big stuff, but the dangerous small stuff is still floating around in there. Since I added an air filter to my shop the amount of sawdust on my shelving and making it back into the house has been decreased immensely. This alone makes SHMBO very happy as well as being healthier for your lungs.


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## GulfcoastGuy (Feb 27, 2012)

Baby steps.

You've got a lot of space under there but you pulled one of my tricks and managed to fill it to the point it's next to impossible to get it straight. I'm on my way though. I decided to pick an area - any area - and get it straight. Then adhere to this simple rule. Under no circumstances will an area be allow to fall into the old state once straight. You turn the tables on the mess in the same way the mess took over in the first place, order and organization take it back, a little at a time. Don't look at the whole thing or you'll be overwhelmed. Pick a wall or a corner - anything - and get it right. Put it on your clean list, vow to keep it that way from that day forward then pick another. Keep 'em small and manageable and slowly you'll take your shop back.

Hang in there bruda, you'll get it.

GCG


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## Chris Curl (Feb 13, 2012)

george, i have the lighting under control, no worries there. what did you do for air filtration?

GCG, good advice, thanks


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## Chris Curl (Feb 13, 2012)

ok, going to bed now. i have a vision and a plan


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Just a suggestion, Chris. I was in the same situation (Ok, not that bad...) but I needed to empty the garage/workshop completely in order to do the drywall and painting. I rented a storage container and had it dropped in our driveway. That's where it stayed for a month.
I think the rental and cartage was around $250 /month. Worth every penny!
Anything that doesn't have a definite purpose gets chucked, not moved into storage. You still have access to the tools if you load the container carefully...I put up temporary 2x4 freestanding racks inside the container.
Just the act of cleaning out the garage is mentally liberating.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Suncoast Shipping Containers - Hire


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

DaninVan said:


> Suncoast Shipping Containers - Hire



Dan, that is for the Sunshine Coast in Australia (south east Queensland).

Freight might add to the coast....LOL


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## JPF WOODWORKING (Jun 8, 2012)

Hi Chris,

I think you are already well on the way to a great (efficient) shop. You are obviously very skilled with regard to your drawing ability soI was going to suggest that you simply keep sketching, sketching, sketching (to scale of course) until you have a layout that includes everything you think you will need. Everything else goes out into the driveway during your yard-sale (your wife will love this!). Then and only then would I start the shop "remodel"... Best of luck!


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## jsears (Apr 5, 2012)

As some of the others have said, you need to clean the garage out before you do anything else. It's hard to picture in your mind (at least for me) just how much room you have, and what other things that are in the shop, that you cannot move. Such as doors, support posts, HVAC ductwork and sewer lines. Those are things you will have to work around. When you are standing in the garage with that much stuff in it, you are being overwhelmed by what to do first :fie:. And when it's all said and done, nothing gets done.

Clean the garage first to get a better idea. Then, to help lay things out, draw on the floor with a piece of chalk the actual size of the tool, where you think you might like them.


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## Hutzul (Oct 4, 2012)

*her indoors ?*



Chris Curl said:


> .............
> 
> If this was your space, and you could organize it any way you wanted, how would YOU organize it?


I had the same problem, and started by having a good sort out and throw out.
A starter for you , in my opinion, would be to sell all those chairs, or fix 'em if that's why they're in your space, or put em back in your house if ' she who must be obeyed' will let you.
My ex wife wife was allus dumping furniture and household stuff in 'my' space:fie::wacko:


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## N'awlins77 (Feb 25, 2011)

Chris, if you couldn't move the stuff that isn't woodworking related out, I'd at least build a partition, or storage closet for that stuff. I built a lean tool type shed next to my shop for lawn equipment. No need to be dusting all that gear up, from the wood dust your collector doesn't collect! Plus it would keep the shop looking neat, not seeing all the extra gear pilled up. I'd love to have that much area too!


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## mgmine (Jan 16, 2012)

The hardest thing about this job is getting started because it's overwhelming! So to get started you have to start. First off get rid of everything that you haven't used in the last year. Put it all in a pile and call the Goodwill to take it away or put an ad on Craigs list. Get rid of all the cans of paint no matter if they are full or not. Get rid of the stuff on the shelves just get rid of everything except the tools. Actually I would even get rid of some of them if necessary and get "new" used ones. I'm a great one to talk because I have spaces in my house that resemble this! It is very difficult to throw good stuff away but it has to be done. It would be easier if you had a friend that you could give the key to the garage to and tell him to go to it. Once it is cleaned out then you can organize.


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## Woodshaper67 (Jan 13, 2012)

It looks like you have a lot of stuff in there that you maybe able to find a home for .I use to be in the same shape but I came up with a rule in my household,and that is this,if we cant see a use for it in 12 months we find a home for it.We may sell it,donate it or landfill it but we find a home for it.I get a lot of old furniture from people and if I can do something with it soon I heat with it.Now Im not saying thise will work for you but it helped me get my shop under control.


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## barking spider (Dec 26, 2010)

First an foremost, you need to get rid of all of the stuff you don't need.
Then find a place where you can store all of the "other than workshop" items, such as garden tools, car tires, etc. Is there attic space above the garage where you might be able to store some things?
If you don't have other storage places now, you may need to buy/build a storage shed.
When you finally get the clutter down to a manageable level, you can concentrate on setting up the shop area. 
I have found a good way for me to plan stuff is to make little paper cut outs of machines, etc and move them around a scale drawing of the floor space. Keep in mind you need to allow for "working space" when planning.
How do you eat an elephant???? One bite at a time!


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## papawd (Jan 5, 2011)

Chris, dust control is easy to maintain if caught at the source, Hepa filter on a shop vac hooked up with a dust deputy collects all dust it picks up...my dust collector with a .5 micron bag picks up a bunch...I ahave a few box fans 20x20 air filters fit on them nicely to help pick up loose dust and give a light breeze on hot days... I built my miter saw into table along the wall also added a sort of built in box and top around/over the miter saw this helps contain the sawdust missed by the dust collector holok-up and easy cleaning since I have added a bunch of these seemingly silly or small improvements my shop area is almost dust free.....once again GOOD LUCK >>>>P.S. I do like the idea of storage container , but I would try and use as a perfect reason to maybe build a nice storage shed this way ya got a place for all the other stuff and store excess wood ,,,,just some food for thought


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## Ben I (May 21, 2010)

Consider your work flow:

Put your miter saw on the right side, near your outside door. That way you can rough size your timber first.

Put your table saw in the center. You must have room all around it for handling long or wide pieces. 

Put a assembly table next to the miter box. It will serve for assembly and allow you to also use your miter saw from left to right if required.

Put your joiner on the center of the back wall. Leave room for your longest work piece to the right of the joiner.

Put your planer in line between your joiner and table saw. The axis of the planner should be perpendicular to the joiner table such that your work pieces move parallel to your joiner.

Other power tools don't require as much space. In my opinion a drill press, a grinder, and a mortiser don't need a great drill of surrounding free space. The router table requires a little more clear space.

Your work flow typically for sheet stock will be:

1. Cut your panels to rough size outside your shop.
2. For panels the next stop is the table saw.


Your typical work flow for long pieces will be:

1. For long boards cut to rough size on miter saw.
2. Depending on the length and wide cross cut to final size on miter saw or table saw.
3. Joint one edge.
4. Rip to final width on table saw.
5. Sand.
6. Drill, mortise as required.
7. Touch up sand after step 6.
8. Route edges as required. Some folks would route before step 6.

All of these suggestions are what work for me. You will, no doubt, receive other valid suggestions. But as previously suggested get your power in first. You can never have too many electrical outlets, but finalize your tool layout before you put in your power. You should locate your power outlets close to your stationary tools. Also provide for hand power tools and shop vac,fan,heater,etc. You may need 240 outlets for A/C or Table Saw.

Gather all your clutter in the center of your space and work inward with insulation, sheet rock, power outlets and storage first. Next set-up your stationary tools. After the tools are in place plan your light fixture location.

BUT GET STARTED.


Good Luck
Ben
:moil:


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

*Oops! Is My Face Red...*



jw2170 said:


> Dan, that is for the Sunshine Coast in Australia (south east Queensland).
> 
> Freight might add to the coast....LOL


Mea culpa. I never even noticed the location, and the pricing didn't give it away. Similar costing up here on our Sunshine Coast (B.C., Canada)
Just for comparison`s sake...
Coast Storage & Containers, Self Storage, Storage Containers, Shipping Containers, Boat Storage, RV Storage, Moving, Container Moving, Sunshine Coast, Gibsons, Regina, Saskatchewan
I notice that they`ve now added some vertical racking. Nice touch!


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## Chris Curl (Feb 13, 2012)

thanks folks. just getting it out in the open has helped alot. time to start puiing stuff out.

thinking about the long workbench ... is 24" deep enough? if so, that would let me cut 2 sheets in half and laminate them for really sturdy bench tops that are 2' wide and 8' long.

the chairs are there to fix and consign. they are waiting on the wife to pick out the cloth for the new seat covers.

the shelves and walls under and above the long workbenches will be where i store ALL my tools and jigs and scrap wood.

i will be taking pics of before during and after to show myself that i am indeed making progress.


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## alaskagypsy (Jan 31, 2009)

*It can always be worse.*

Ouch, looked like my shop/garage.
Had a garage sale. Then donations to Salvation Army, etc - tax write off.
Build a small shed for lawn stuff/tires, lawn mower. Home improvement stores have fast easy to build units - rather than spend lots of time designing one - which will put you on hold for weeks/months to design because you want the best........
Dedicate the area to a workshop - nothing else in the shop but shop stuff.
Put the area down on paper, with cut outs for tools, work benches, etc.
Didn't use peg board - instead I built cheap cabinets or found ones being discarded - can get a lot more in cabinets than peg board and keeps the dust off them - label the doors with what's inside (paper taped to doors). Have some full-length and some above work benches. Amazing with what fits inside.
I built movable flip top tool stand/s for as many tools as possible (example - planer and 6" sander on one). Saves a lot of space.
Other ways are to have flip out table tops in cabinets with tools mounted on them - tool is then out of the way till you need it, when needed open the door, flip out the table/tool top use, then flip back. Great for a chop saw or portable table saw if that's all you have. The cabinet can still have space for storage below/above the tool.
I still need to use my shop for keeping my vehicle in (Alaska) during the winter, so the flip out and flip top stands work great.
Start with a plan to spend so many hours a week or a day in the shop - amazing what 1 hour a day or every other day can do. When in the ship, spend time working, not standing around thinking/staring - do. So get the plan done first.


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## Ben I (May 21, 2010)

Chris Curl said:


> thanks folks. just getting it out in the open has helped alot. time to start puiing stuff out.
> 
> thinking about the long workbench ... is 24" deep enough? if so, that would let me cut 2 sheets in half and laminate them for really sturdy bench tops that are 2' wide and 8' long.
> 
> ...



In addition to your work table top I would cover your workbench with a sheet of MDF. This will be a sacrificial piece for hand routing. The MDF should overhang the work table so as to facilitate clamping of work pieces for routing or glue up. It is not necessary to fix the MDF in place, it weighs enough to lie loose.

regards 
Ben


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## curiousgeorge (Nov 6, 2006)

Chris Curl said:


> george, i have the lighting under control, no worries there. what did you do for air filtration?
> 
> GCG, good advice, thanks


I hung a Jet air filtration system from the ceiling. It not only helps keep the air clean from the dangerous dust it also aids in keeping air circulating in a closed up shop during extreme hot/cold days.


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

I was thinking maybe some pallet racks perpendicular from a wall. You can put braced ply between the frame rails, to create shelves. I've built some that were heavy enough to stack snowmobiles in. You could stack lawn mowers, tool chests, etc. to layer and get all that off the floor. Think 3D. Momentarily pictured in my mind was a renting standup forklift, but jokingly.

Even if you need to keep all that pictured, which I suspect is a joint decision between you and the wife, it's hard to get to anything if it's stacked on top of each other, right? I understand that it is not just a shop, but also household storage. Which is why Warren and others are talking dust control. Anything stored in that space is subject to saw dust settling on it, besides the benefits to your body.

Next is your existing shelves, if you go another where from 12" to 24", you can still organize and layer back. 24" you can still reach back, but not have to be on top of each other. Ladders and such, get on top of a rack or hang from the ceiling. When you need a ladder, you don't want to have it entangled. When you don't need it, it can be out of the way.

Every once in a while, I'll take everything out of my garage and put it back in. Some things that I haven't touched in a long time, I decide whether it's going back in. If not, is it a saver or can it really go. I have storage under my house and in an external utility shed. Yours? I thought maybe a shipping container, but discounted that as a bit excessive.

Yes, I think that reclaiming ground would be my first priority... To find out just how much space I have to play with.


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

> thanks folks. just getting it out in the open has helped alot.


My name is Chris, and I am a hoarder.....(just kidding).

You have received many good suggestions, Chris. Now get on with it.......

Your wife has to bear some of the blame, if you are still waiting to get those chairs out of the way........VBG.....


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## Chris Curl (Feb 13, 2012)

worked pretty much all day out there, mostly to get the tiles back down on the floor. that is not done yet, but i did at the same time move the bench over along the wall, and it already feels like it is going to be better.

my kitchen counters are 25" deep, so i think 24" is a good width for the workbench. thoughts?


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

DaninVan said:


> Mea culpa. I never even noticed the location, and the pricing didn't give it away. Similar costing up here on our Sunshine Coast (B.C., Canada)
> Just for comparison`s sake...
> Coast Storage & Containers, Self Storage, Storage Containers, Shipping Containers, Boat Storage, RV Storage, Moving, Container Moving, Sunshine Coast, Gibsons, Regina, Saskatchewan
> I notice that they`ve now added some vertical racking. Nice touch!



I see on the price list, they also show "Sunshine Coast".... Where is this in US?

I can understand you being confused.


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## Chris Curl (Feb 13, 2012)

No storage pods for me. I have enough room in the garage to relocate stuff.

I feel like I made good progress today. I got about 1/2 of the floor tiles back down, What a pain it is getting them under the sheves. I have to take 2 car jacks and lift the shelf up so I can get the tiles under the legs.

I have moved pretty much everything that isnt part of the shop to the left side of garage, as much in that alcove area as possible. The other half of the garage will be the shop area. I still need to make enough room to get the Fairlane in there.


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## Chris Curl (Feb 13, 2012)

*day 1 pics*

I had taken up about 1/2 of the garage tiles. Today I move alot of the shop stuff out to the driveway and put back as many as I could. Before stopping, I had to put everything back in the garage, and as I did that, seperated it into shop stuff (right side of the garage) and non-shop stuff (left side). 

Unfortunately, there is still a water problem, but the major problem (the reason why I pulled up the tiles in the first place) was the AC condensation line was blocked, and it was dripping into the garage and got under the tiles. Now, when there is alot of rain, it comes in the near the back right corner, but at least it is not alot. I think I'm going to have to put in a french drain in the spring.

There is still an awful lot to do.


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## jsears (Apr 5, 2012)

Well, at least it's a start. Other than getting the tile job started, you really haven't accomplished anything though. The clutter is still there. Rather than move all of that stuff out, then back in, what you don't want should have been moved it to the curb with a "free" sign stuck on it.

As for the work bench size, IMHO, 24" inches wide is plenty unless you can get to both sides to work. Much wider than that, and it gets a tough to reach across. 24" may not be wide enough for an assembly table, but will work fine for general woodworking.


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## Chris Curl (Feb 13, 2012)

thanks jim. that makes me feel great.

but i understand what you mean though. the main focus right now is to get the floor tiles back down. as i was moving stuff around though, i did throw away things that i came across that i haven't used in a long time. and things that i am donating to the thrift store went to an area near the front.


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## jnahman (Jul 24, 2012)

Chris, you have made me feel only a little better. I have a garage that is for two cars but limo style. It is filled too but without the wall organization you have. My strategy is to get a good bottle of sour mash whiskey, enter into a bad mood, and then start throwing stuff away....ok, the plan is good but it hasn't happened. Good luck


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## Chris Curl (Feb 13, 2012)

Well I got my floor tiles back down last night, I got rid of 3 bikes, and I got everything not workshop related piled up in one area.

And I got a bunch of desktops from the cubes from my office's renovation project, so they will make up my new workbench and router table and many other work surfaces, maybe a new enclosure for the table saw.

Progress is good!


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## Chris Curl (Feb 13, 2012)

Here is my plan for the legs for the long workbench. 

Each leg is 33" tall and is made from 2 2x3 pieces glued and screwed together. The bottom support piece is 8" and the top one is 1'8".

The pair of legs is supported crossways with 4 1x3 pieces, 2 at the top and 2 at the lower joint. These cross pieces also help to support the bench top and the shelf.

The tops (I scored them from my office) are 29"wide, 42" long, and 1 1/8" thick. they are very heavy, strong and stiff. I am confident that they do not need any extra support, but if so I can do that easily.

The legs are spaced 24" apart (front to back). That way, there will be some overhang for clamping. They are 42" apart (left to right) so that the cross pieces will help support the top more.

Thoughts?


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

You don't want to use the space beneath for tool and material storage? I'd cut my wrists before surrendering that valuable space... 
Perhaps one of the factors in the original problem was that there wasn't a specific place for everything?
-cupboards
-rolling tool stands
-pull-out shelves (and of course, drawers)


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## Chris Curl (Feb 13, 2012)

Dan, yes ... absolutely, I am planning on using the space below for storage, mostly tools. The drawing doesn't show that part because I didn't want to muddy the picture so people could better see the idea to point out potential problems or improvements.

The lower cross pieces are going to support a long shelf, and hopefully over time, maybe I'll get up the nerve to try making some drawers and integrating them in somehow.


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## papawd (Jan 5, 2011)

My air compressor,belt sanders, some drill bits and numerous hand and electrical tools are all stored on the shelf under my work tables. I would try and maybe come out a little bit more than 24" as that is what I have and sometimes wish it was a little wider but ripping a 4'x8' sheet in half is alot cheaper than a sheet for every 8'... With that being said I use my worktable (also on lockable casters) to do almost all my projects on..... Good LUCK Chris keep up the good work


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## GulfcoastGuy (Feb 27, 2012)

The legs look a lot like mine. The solid jack stud will make it a hoss. I could park an elephant on mine.

Just a suggestion that worked out for me: top it with what ever but then just lay in/on some 1/8" hardboard. I used the white faced stuff then ran the perimeter with a flush trim bit and added some 1x4's for trim and to hold the topper in place, just screws, no glue. No glue or screws in the topper, it just lays flat and stays put. When it needs replacing I just remove the 1x4's, throw away the old top, and drop in a new top, trim and reattach the 1x4's. Couldn't be easier.

GCG


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## Chris Curl (Feb 13, 2012)

cool ... thanks folks.

warren, it turns out that the tops i got from the office are 29.5" wide. and they are 41 3/4" long. They are 1 1/8" thick particle board covered with either formica or melamine (probably melamine). so the top of the workbench will be 29 1/2" wide. at this time, i am thinking the shelf underneath will probably be 24" wide, simply because that is the best way to use as much of the plywood sheets as possible.

patrick, sounds like a very effective way to refresh the top when needed. unfortunately, i'm not seeing how i can do that with these 

i have never made a drawer in my life (not yet), but i definately want to learn how and incorporate them in this bench. what are the simplest, most idiot-proof drawers a beginner like me can start with?


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## papawd (Jan 5, 2011)

Chris way to go there will be times when that extra 5" will come in handy. Ya could make the bottom 24" wide and that will also allow room (overhang) to put a clamp/vise as where/when needed... measure out places for height of bottom shelf in case of air compressor or big sanders,planers etc. ... Keep up the good work and it will get there before Ya know it You'll be makin sawdust


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## Chris Curl (Feb 13, 2012)

update ... most of the day was spent in the yard and preparing for hurricane sandra 

but this evening, i was able to get some cross pieces cut (i ended up using 3/4" thick ply) and glued up my first 2 sets of legs. then, for the proof of concept, i clamped some 8' long 2x3s to the ends and put 2 tops on. it is really solid, and that is only with 2 sets of legs and no glue. i still have to make a bunch more legs.

the bottom jack studs on the legs are 8" long, so the shelf will be 10 1/2" off the ground. there will be 22 1/2" of vertical space between the shelf and the top. 

warren, my compressor is about 4' tall, so it won't even come close.


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## Chris Curl (Feb 13, 2012)

Good progress today. I got the first part of the new workbench complete. It is only two dekstops, but I already have two other workbenches that I put other tops on for now to get everything against the wall. And I put most of the tools on the shelf under the one bench. When I'm done there will be two 10 1/2' benches with storage underneath and above. 

I'm going back and forth between thinking I want to put the miter saw between them, sunk about 3" so that the benches can act as outfeed support, and having it near the garage door, because it throws so much sawdust out.

I also made a new dust catcher for the table saw and put the guard back on. Now it should kick very little dust into the air.

Now I have some space to make the next bench. But there is still so much to do, because I still need to go through all the sttuff and fins the right place for it all and throw stuff away.


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

Great progress, Chris.


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## Chris Curl (Feb 13, 2012)

I finally got the workbench finished. I actually ended up making 3 benches, each one 83" long, mainly because the floor is not all that flat, and it would have resulted in either some of the legs being too long or too short, or the tops would not line up.

Now to make the shelves underneath, and start organizing all the stuff.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Chris; did you put levellers on the leg bottoms? Highly recommended for stability and levelling the bench tops relative to each other.
Inserts and machine bolts work well., or drill and epoxy nuts into the double drilled recess on the leg bottoms.


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## Chris Curl (Feb 13, 2012)

Dan, I was thinking about that, and hoping I could avoid it. I think having 3 seperate tables avoids the problem, but I have a bunch of t-nuts and can put levers in if I have to. I can definately see how they could really help making sure the tops all line up.


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