# Dovetail accuracy



## Eazygeezer (Sep 23, 2013)

Hi guys, I'm currently on version 9 (attempt9) of making handmade dovetails so I can make a jewellery box for the wife. I just can't seem to get the fit right, it's either sloppy in the joint, too tight or not quite low enough in the joint.

I am also practicing with my new restored Henry disston back saw to get straight cuts. I've attached a pic of the latest effort. Any tips to improve the joint?


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

Never hand cut them myself, but I would say more practice - with cheap wood. But looking, looks like if you cut them just a bit narrower, then carefully widened the slots, that might do it. Always more fun doing things by hand, when the opportunity presents itself. Hmm, a lot of my stuff I make a jig or one sort or another, might want to look into making one, for uniform cuts - I can't advise you on that, because I never did it, but that is likely what I would do. Keep at it, you'll get it figured out.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

what does the joint look like from the other side???....
can we have a picture...


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Those are not dovetails, they are box joints. This is why most of us use commercial jigs. However, the cuts are not really square, and definitely cut too short. A little tighter on the width and use a chisel or sandpaper on a stick to hand fit the joint after the rough cut. and with the pins and sockets a little long, you will cut, sand or use a trim bit to cut them flush after glueup. 

If you're sticking to hand cuts, you might also need to change your grip on the saw to help straighten the cuts. Hold the handle, but extend your index finger out, onto the blade. This should help stabilize the saw and straighten the cut. 

Start with marking the sockets. Use a square to make sure it's really square. Cut inside the lines for the sockets. You can use a coping saw to clear out most of the socket, then a chisel to finish it up, then sandpaper on a stick to perfect the socket. Then use that to mark the pins. Leave the pins long and slightly wide, then repeat the cutting out, but leave the pins slightly wider (and longer) and perfect it with chilel/sandpaper. Just saw a suggestion you use adhesive backed paper and stick it to the back of a chisel so it's perfectly flat and well reinforced. Probably 120 grit or so should do it.

And then practice, practice, practice. 

Now, if you're serious about this, consider the Incra I-Box jig for the table saw, which adjusts to the thickness of your blade stack to make it much easier to make a clean box joint. WalMart has it for about $138, much lower than any other . You can order it online and have it delivered to your local store. There are lots of videos on youtube on using it. Theoretically you can make your own box joint jig, but if I were having problems your pictures show, I'd just go for the jig. 

One last thing, try a Japanese pull saw with backer. Much easier to control than what you're using. When the Japanese saw gets dull, you replace the blade, usually about the price of a sharpening, and it delivers an extremely clean cut (about $35).

Pictures of IBox jig and Japanese saw.

YouTube video


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

Eazygeezer said:


> Hi guys, I'm currently on version 9 (attempt9) of making handmade dovetails so I can make a jewellery box for the wife. I just can't seem to get the fit right, it's either sloppy in the joint, too tight or not quite low enough in the joint.
> 
> I am also practicing with my new restored Henry disston back saw to get straight cuts. I've attached a pic of the latest effort. Any tips to improve the joint?


Those aren't too bad for hand cut. If you ever get a chance to look at the hand cut dovetails of 100 year old drawers you will see where they are pretty rough. 
Here is a picture of some old dresser drawers w/handcut dovetails. Click on pic to see larger view. These date back to mid 1800's

Herb


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

You got me thinking...What if you made a saddle of wood, in a U shape, used a thin kerf blade at a perfect 90 degree angle and use it as a saw guide. Make it a little oversized and maybe a Tnut so you can clamp it firmly in place. Use it to guide your Japanese saw cut straight. The Japanese saw has a very thin, astonishingly sharp blade that, with a guide, would really give you a precise cut. 

Here's a crude drawing of what I mean:


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## Eazygeezer (Sep 23, 2013)

Thought I posted both pics, here are the pins. I'm only using scrap wood and I think perhaps that could be a pet if the issue. Plus I seem to get tearout when cutting the waste away. 

I do have a flexible pullsaw, got a Japanese pullsaw on the Xmas list though . I like the idea of the jig herb, that looks like a great idea. I guess it's just more practice, both for chiselling out and cutting straight. I think the kerf from my antique saw is fairly large as well, think I may go back to the pullsaw for more practice. Great advice, thanks


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## Rogerdodge (Apr 24, 2014)

Not bad from this side, Ezgz ! Practice and perseverance is what you need now.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

I applaud you and where you are trying to go here..
dove tail joint it is.....

what's the two gouges for/from???....

the saw you are using is a bit dull and it's teeth (too much set/low tooth count) are too aggressive for the species of wood.. 
even the handle angle isn't right...
all of this causes you to ''force'' the saw causing splintering/tears/breakouts...
a flex saw will work but it will lend to errors and it takes a bit of practice.. 
a stiff pull saw is better...
and a back saw matched to the wood species is better yet..
remember.. there are saws for ripping and saws for cross cutting...
let the saw do the work...

BTW.. what ever you used to cross cut your material w/ needs an appropriate sharp blade...
I see way too much tear...
I like Freud blades w/ a passion...
Freud Tools | Products

leave the pins a schoosh proud... and then trim them w/ an LA plane or a paring chisel...
if you use a chisel, sharpness matters more than a lot... 
also, make sure to lay the body of the chisel on the surface face when you shave ... don't approach the pin w/ the chisel at an elevated angle..
practice your trimming, approach angle matters.. experiment and see what works for you...
sweeping diagonal inward shaving action, be it slight or aggressive, or somewhere in between works best for me...
you may find that a sweeping motion and a diagonal approach is really the ticket... sometimes...
outward cutting is a disaster waiting to happen...
avoid sanding... end grain sands worlds differently from face grain which leads to unhappiness.....

work w/ a set of angle cut guides, layouts (they're called dovetail and saddle markers) and stops till you develop your eye/feel for the cutting...
shop made or store bought will work...
reasonable to OCD level repetition matters...

marking... keep your lines sharp and clean
a marking knife is a plus...
you can cheat here and use a razor knife..
pencil..
Pentel mechanical .5 or a .7mm is hard to beat...
differently colored leads, be it black, yellow, white and etc help your line visibility come light or dark woods
fat pencil lines lead to misses/errors....

chisels...
the shape of the chisel body matters...
note the tapered edges/shoulders of this dovetail chisel... there are different designs but the taper is there on all of them...
they are done that way to facilitate working up against/into the socket and pin base angles intersections...
.
http://www.cwsonline.com.au/persistent/catalogue_images/products/dovetail4.jpg[/I

two collections of dovetail tools...

.


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## mgmine (Jan 16, 2012)

Use a magnetic dovetail guide. You can get an off brand one for about 27 dollars. 

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=magnetic+dovetail+guide


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

Lee... 

Handcut dovetails take ALOT of practice to get down pat and they dont' come easy....There are 4 degrees of dovetail making. IMHO!

1: YIKES!!! needs more work, alot more practice. Not satisfied at all with the outcome
>>>>>>>> consider the tools used: are they the right tools for the task?
>>>>>Layout tools: There is a huge variety of dovetail layout guides out there. I started with Lee Valley 
guides and still use em when cutting traditional DT's. Learning to do the math/layout by hand 
without the use of guides is well worth the time and effort if you are so inclined. I still have to go
back and 'refresh" my memory when doing the math, but once you got it down, no biggie.
>>>>>Use a marking gauge and/or a marking knife for your layout lines. This gives you the ability to 
register your chisel accurately and consistently! Often the scoring lines will show up in the 
end product but this is generally accepted and not a deal breaker. Not a fan of pencil lines!!!!
>>>>>Saws: hell, you can use just about any saw including tablesaws and bandsaws. But those are
another story for another day. Typically you'll find a dedicated dovetail saw, backsaw, pullsaw,
coping saw as the saw of choice. I like pullsaws myself, but thats just me. The idea isn't to cut
the line, just cut 'inside' of the lines. Throw in a coping saw to hog out the majority of the waste material.
From there, your chisel does the rest. 
>>>>>Chisels: here's where the rubber meets the road. You have to have good *SHARP* chisels, PERIOD!
You don't need a 200.00 chisel, but ya need a good sharp one. Gotta have beveled sides to get into the 
corners cleanly. Dedicated dovetail chisels are fantastic, but not something most guys have in their toolbox, and
represent a bit of an investment for something you may only use rarely. 

consider the condition and tune-up of the tools being used: 
>>>>>Layout tools are accurate, your math has got to be correct, guides adequately secured etc..etc...
>>>>>saws and chisels properly tuned and correct for the task at hand. Saws need to be sharp and true to track
properly and to keep tear out to a minimum. Chisels need to be ultra sharp since you'll be working with 
essentially paring of end-grain as part of the process. 

consider the method/techniques being used..
>>>>>There are a ton of methods/techniques out there. Some say this is right other say that is right,,who knows, who cares. 
It comes down to what works for you. Keep it simple. Consider projects within or just outside of your ability/skill set! 
>>>>>Everything from layouts to sawing to chisel work require a degree of expertise to achieve "that'll do" results. 
That level of expertise comes with practice and patience! You just can't think your way to decent work, there is without
a doubt, a great deal of sweat equity involved. 
>>>>>reread Sticks post above...alot of very good points made. Then go to YouTube and spend a couple hours watching how
its done. Pay close attention and wait for that light bulb moment, then go give it a shot. 
>>>>>Once you got all your ducks in a row, look at which aspect(s) of cutting dovetails you are not completely satisfied with, 
then go PRACTICE. Intially I was not happy with my saw work. So I spent hours with a board vised up and just took 1 inch
wide marks and practiced cutting as many kerfs within that 1 inch as I could. After a while, I got pretty good at it, muscle
memory takes over and its just second nature now. Excelling at one aspect tends to make the others that much more 
manageable. I'm willing to bet that most folks need to spend some extra time on the chisel aspect of dovetailing. 
>>>>>A nice "snug" fit is what your after. Sloppy fits are no good. and if you reach for a bigger mallet, your just asking for problems. 
Trust me on that one!!! 

consider the wood being used..
>>>>>Yep, it does make a difference. Softwoods vs. hardwoods. The time you spend with a piece of popular ain't gonna be the same as
the time you spend with a piece of Purpleheart!! 

2: That'll do.....outcome is ok, but you're not really happy with it
>>>>>>>>At this point you pretty much got the idea down, and its just matter of identifying the problem and then working to correct it. 
practice, practice, practice.....

3: NICE..
>>>>>>>>Here you got not problem handing over the project. Joint is clean, tight, well laid out and just looks good. A close examination 
reveals the areas that need just a little more tweaking. Otherwise, your average Joe would never know the difference. 

4: OH YEAH!! Time to move onto Japanese joinery! 


Honestly, the shame of it is most folks have no idea of what goes into hand cut dovetails. A cosmetic detail overlooked by the majority of folks. You can
always tell another wood working by watching what he/she does when they open a drawer!! I'll do handcut DT's when the project is for someone special or
has special meaning AND there isn't 50 joints to do!!!!, otherwise, I admit, I just use a Porter Cable DT jig. 

Hope this helps a bit..

B.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

some how the chisel picture didn't post...
another try...
a set of needle rasps will be a huge help for fine tuning...

.


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## Danman1957 (Mar 14, 2009)

I have never used a router and jig for dovetails. Once you get the hang of it, it is a rewarding task. To increase accuracy I use a marking knife instead of a pencil and I ALWAYS cut on the waste side and then clean up paring with a nice sharp chisel. I also use a Dozuki saw with a thin kurf rather than a conventional saw. My first dovetails required filler to make them usable but as they say practice will improve the quality. I also use Lee Valley Dovetail markers, one for hardwoods and one for softwoods. Keep up the effort and you will get better.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

I suggest you use some better quality wood for practicing. It will behave much differently than what you're using now. Stick has gone into considerable detail. I think your new saw will make a difference as well. You can purchase a saddle marker for dovetails pretty cheap, it will help you layout your pins and tails. While I still prefer using a jig, a dovetail jig will cost a lot more than the box joint jig I mentioned.


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## Eazygeezer (Sep 23, 2013)

I think there was a slight cup in the wood I was using, the gouges were probably from something stacked on top of it.

I have a marking knife which I use, got a marking gauge on the Christmas list too . I could always change the set on my saw and lengthen the gullets for a speedier and thinner kerf. I also have a gents saw, got for 50p from a boot sale. Unfortunately it has a slight twist near the end  oh well.

I have a good square, sliding bevel gauge and so on, I also made a dovetail template which I have been using. I'll snap my gear when I get out in the shed tomorrow and try out number 10  I guess I'm still experimenting with margins. I'll pop update pics on here for when I get them accurate and neat and lessons learned!

Thanks for all the help


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

a hand plane will fix the cup if it isn't too severe...


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## jemangin (Oct 23, 2013)

I signed up for Finewoodworking.com online subscription. The best tool investment I have ever made. You can search every issue they have ever done. Great videos and tips. I just finished my first hand cut dovetails and they turned out better than expected. This article by Chris Becksvoort is excellent POST data. This video by hime also helped a lot.Chris Becksvoort, the dovetail master at work - FineWoodworking

He does two sets at once, by placing your two drawer ends together when sawing. It gives you a longer cut meaning better chance of keeping the cut at 90 degrees to the face(which is the key to a tight fit). Undercutting when chiseling also will help the fit.

Before starting I did warm up cuts with the saw on a piece of pine.


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## jemangin (Oct 23, 2013)

Sit up style of Becksvoort. Two at a time.


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## denniswoody (Dec 11, 2011)

It looks like you are using a soft wood like maybe pine. I have found a hardwood is easier to work because the cuts are crisper and easier to get precise. I like Paul Sellers videos for learning about hand work. He shows excellent techniques for measuring, marking, cutting and chisel work. You aren't as far off success as you may think. Keep at it.


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## woodknots (Mar 7, 2012)

Lee - you've received a lot of excellent advice already - the only thing I would stress is practice, practice, practice.

And if you haven't heard of Rob Cosman, you should check him out. Based in Eastern Canada, he demonstrates at a lot of woodworking shows both in Canada and the U.S. Here's two of his videos.


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## Eazygeezer (Sep 23, 2013)

Awesome advice as usual, thanks a lot! I have been trying to use the Paul sellers dovetail method. I don't want to compromise on quality and the 9th attempt was worlds better than the first 

I have a number of power tools that I could quite easily make a jig for, but because my projects are quite small I really like the satisfaction of working the wood by hand and learning traditional woodworking techniques. I have learned how to use a chisel, how to sharpen tools, how to use a hand plane (still learning the knack for flat and true) how to use handsaws and even a router plane I just bought.

I wouldn't say I am anywhere near a purist as I still use my table saw and drill press, but I am really enjoying just working the wood. Also I am kind of ocd when I do something, it grates on me if its not right or how it's supposed to be, drives my wife mad as I do it with everything lol. I can't wait to post a pic of a 'perfect' dovetail joint!!


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## tomp913 (Mar 7, 2014)

I watched this video of Christian Becksvoort hand- cutting dovetails the other day (it's loading kind of slow today) and had to just sit there and shake my head. Masterful. Chris Becksvoort, the dovetail master at work - FineWoodworking

Here's another link to the same video that seems to be running correctly


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## Ray Newman (Mar 9, 2009)

For those that are considering doing hand-cut dovetails, this "kit" from Lee valley might be of interest:

Veritas® Dovetail Guide and Saw Set - Lee Valley Tools

Also, some find that a shop fabricated Moxon vise is handy for hand cutting dovetails:

https://www.canadianwoodworking.com/plans-projects/build-moxon-vise

I 'nevva' became very good at hand-cutting dovetails. I think the main issue was that the back and arm rests of the wheelchair interfered with the proper swing of the saw. Did find that a "traditional" dovetail saw (fine kerf, proper saw set, etc.) is much better at cutting dovetails than saw a back saw. I porobably should send mine of a sharpening and give hand cutting another go.


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## Eazygeezer (Sep 23, 2013)

Ok so I realised one major mistake I have been cutting tails first, which makes marking pins more difficult. I have resharpened my chisel and marking knife and started joint 10. 
Below is a pic of the tools I'm using so far, roll on Xmas for my new stuff!


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Ray Newman said:


> I 'nevva' became very good at hand-cutting dovetails. I think the main issue was that the back and arm rests of the wheelchair interfered with the proper swing of the saw. Did find that a "traditional" dovetail saw (fine kerf, proper saw set, etc.) is much better at cutting dovetails than saw a back saw. I probably should send mine of a sharpening and give hand cutting another go.


dovetail saw w/ a back is a step up...
sharpen your own...
LV has everything you need...

can you work from the side of your chair??? if so.. consider a tail vise...


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## Ray Newman (Mar 9, 2009)

Stick: I have probably a 30 year old English brass back dovetails saw --Tyzack?? Well made. Handle could be more comfortable though.

As for learning saw sharpening skills, I just do not want to go down that road. I do not have the time and sometimes the ambition to do the things I would like to do and know how to do.

Bench has both tail and shoulder vises.Tried removing the chair arm rest, using the two different vises to no avail. From what I can tell and physically feel the back of the chair impedes/interferes with my shoulder and the saw natural swings. I even tried leaning off to one side, but found that it was too tiring too quickly. --


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

short saw...
short strokes...


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## Eazygeezer (Sep 23, 2013)

Just bought a Henry disston 26" d8 backsaw, 5 tpi, sharp enough to rip with. I think I will give it another sharpen but the handle is in good condition and the blade although discoloured certainly cuts quickly. 

I have also just bought a vintage Stanley spokeshave, looking forward to using all my new stuff!!

Saw sharpening is actually really quite simple and doesn't take long, better than sending off or buying new  another skill learned!

The Paul sellers method is really easy to follow and really works


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

26'' of saw sure is a lot of saw and at 5tpi that is too aggressive... 
most DT saws are maybe a foot long.. often less...
too much saw lends to ''wobble'' w/ tends to throw off your cuts...
there may be something in here that may be of use to you...

The blades of the dovetail saws have 14 or 20 rip-cut teeth per inch. The 14 tpi model is most efficient on stock thicker than 1/2"; the less aggressive cut of the 20 tpi version is best for stock under 1/2" thick. The teeth, set 0.003" per side, have a rake angle of 14° and an included angle of 60°.

Used for cutting across or perpendicular to the grain, the 16 tpi crosscut saw blade has teeth filed with alternating bevel angles so it severs rather than tears wood fibers; it tracks better and leaves a smoother finish than a rip-cut blade. The teeth are filed with 15° rake and bevel angles and have 0.003" of set per side.

.


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

@Ray Newman 
Ray...is the working height an issue for you?


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## Ray Newman (Mar 9, 2009)

Two Skies 57: Not that I am aware of as the work bench/vises are 30" high, so the work stock would be about 1" higher.


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## Eazygeezer (Sep 23, 2013)

Hey stick, sorry for the confusion. The long rip saw is a purchase just for ripping, I'm not using it for the dovetails.  
I completed 10 today using my pullsaw. Just a couple of minor mistakes on this one.

Joints were a lot tighter, inside joint was not visible and pins and tails were more even, cuts were neater.

Tail cut line was not far enough back and the middle pin slot I cut the wrong side of the waste which resulted in a loose fit. Other than that I think it's my best so far


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

lookin' good Lee..


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

Now that is a heck of an improvement AND you recognize where to focus your efforts. Nicely done EZ!


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

Eazygeezer said:


> (still learning the knack for flat and true)
> 
> !


store bought or shopmade.... winding sticks are your friend!

Lee Valley Winding Sticks - Lee Valley Tools


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## Eazygeezer (Sep 23, 2013)

Number 11

Almost there!! 2 minor mistakes

Pushed my knife wall too far on the middle pin and undercut the middle pin with the chisel.

I could probably get away with that with glue and a bit of sawdust, but I can't lol

Come on 12 you're my lucky Number!!


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

yup ... almost there...
are you using your saw to trim the pins???


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## Eazygeezer (Sep 23, 2013)

No I have been using just the chisel and sometimes a needle file if I can't get into the joint with the chisel. 

The joint held under it's own weight with no slop, just that darn middle pin!! Lol

I cut the pins and tails slightly proud and trimmed them with my no4 and block plane. I think I will cut at least 1mm from the cut line for that centre pin for the next attempt.

It takes me about 30 mins for one joint lol still I suppose practice makes you quicker


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Eazygeezer said:


> It takes me about 30 mins for one joint lol still I suppose practice makes you quicker


that it does....


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## Eazygeezer (Sep 23, 2013)

Number 12

Almost there, internal knice wall on middle pin was pushed back, too aggressive with my chisel too soon.

Looks pretty good apart from that!!


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

try a rasp instead of a chisel for fit...
all that tearing suggest your tooling id a bit dull or your depth of cut w/ plane/chisel is too deep..


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## denniswoody (Dec 11, 2011)

As I pointed out earlier a hard wood provides cleaner cuts so some of the "ugly" bits you have are solely due to the wood and not your technique. Looking good!


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

denniswoody said:


> As I pointed out earlier a hard wood provides cleaner cuts so some of the "ugly" bits you have are solely due to the wood and not your technique. Looking good!


I agree. I think Dennis is right about the wood being the problem. Time to get some better material, and I think they'll look much better.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

DesertRatTom said:


> I agree. I think Dennis is right about the wood being the problem. Time to get some better material, and I think they'll look much better.


Lee is doing just fine...
practice and the right tools and he'll be a master in no time...

I still say not using the right saw w/ the right set w/ the right tooth grind is the issue..
there are cross cut saws and there are rip saws for a reason...
DT'ing uses both...

A cross cut saw is used to cut across the grain of the wood and are sharpened like knife points to score then shear the fibers of the wood.
A rip or splitting saw is used to cut with the grain and are sharpened like chisel points (or little tiny plow plane blades) to excavate the wood from the groove.

put the ball in your court and use a ryoba saw (one side rip, one side cross).
https://www.fine-tools.com/ryoba.html
what is Lee going to do when starts DT'ing in/w/ brittle hardwoods???

An image speaks more than a thousand words:....

.


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## Eazygeezer (Sep 23, 2013)

With regard to tools, I am using an Irwin mini dovetail flexible pullsaw for all the cuts and my chisels to cut away the waste. 
The wood is a general building grade pine, very soft.

I started using my tenon saw but at 16" I felt it was a bit too cumbersome for the job. I am gradually improving with the saw for straighteness. I just have fingers crossed that the wife has bought me either the dozaki saw or veritas dovetail saw for Xmas


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## Eazygeezer (Sep 23, 2013)

So I have version 14. Nice tight joints. Very tiny gaps.

Not perfect but I think 15 might be the charm!!


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## Danman1957 (Mar 14, 2009)

Must say, told you so ! practice brings better quality and better speed also. These last ones are excellent. With more practice you will be able to get the same results in Pine also. Remember SHARP TOOLS.


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

You've come a long way in a short time EZ!!! looking very good. 

next time you run by a big box store, stop and get yourself a couple of popular boards to practice with next. I think you might be pleasantly surprised.


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## denniswoody (Dec 11, 2011)

Your persistence is paying off!


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## Eazygeezer (Sep 23, 2013)

Thanks everyone for your support and advice. Yesterday I cut a half lap dovetail, I believe the kind you see in drawer fronts. I didn't fully flush the finished joint as I am more bothered about the joint being ok. I can always plane/rasp the finished joint and or sand it.

There was some slight curvature to the pin board which has given small gaps on the 2 external pins. I am only using scrap wood until I have it down! 

This was attempt 2. I have to say I am very pleased with the finished joint!


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## gkobernus (Feb 13, 2010)

I gave up trying handmade box/dovetail joints. There are a number of handmade jigs you can build from scrap for the table saw. Google "box joints". There are a large number of commercial jigs that also work well in the $100-$200 range.


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