# what am I looking for



## sunnybob (Apr 3, 2015)

I'm still having problems getting thin flat pieces of wood. I'm getting desperate here.
My latest searches have got me interested in a drum sander, where you feed the wood through on a conveyor (hand or motor).
i just need pieces of hard wood mostly, less than a foot across, but of a uniform thickness, which can vary from 3/16" to a 1/2" depending on the job.
Anyone using a drum sander?
Any opinions?


----------



## DonkeyHody (Jan 22, 2015)

sunnybob said:


> I'm still having problems getting thin flat pieces of wood. I'm getting desperate here.
> My latest searches have got me interested in a drum sander, where you feed the wood through on a conveyor (hand or motor).
> i just need pieces of hard wood mostly, less than a foot across, but of a uniform thickness, which can vary from 3/16" to a 1/2" depending on the job.
> Anyone using a drum sander?
> Any opinions?


Thickness planers are all about flat. However, the feed rollers of either a thickness planer or a drum sander will press a gentle cup or bow out of a thin board as it passes through and then you will have a piece of uniform thickness which may or may not lie flat at different times depending upon humidity. That's just one of the challenges you buy into when working with a natural, non-homogeneous product that was designed by the Creator for another purpose entirely. 

Woodworkers have wrestled with this problem since the dawn of time. In order to keep a thin solid panel flat, it generally needs to be constrained in some way. Build a stiff frame around it, or glue it to a thicker, stable piece. Plywood may be your answer.


----------



## jruimy (Jan 14, 2012)

DonkeyHody said:


> Thickness planers are all about flat. However, the feed rollers of either a thickness planer or a drum sander will press a gentle cup or bow out of a thin board as it passes through and then you will have a piece of uniform thickness which may or may not lie flat at different times depending upon humidity. That's just one of the challenges you buy into when working with a natural, non-homogeneous product that was designed by the Creator for another purpose entirely.
> 
> Woodworkers have wrestled with this problem since the dawn of time. In order to keep a thin solid panel flat, it generally needs to be constrained in some way. Build a stiff frame around it, or glue it to a thicker, stable piece. Plywood may be your answer.


What an elegant response. It is filled with know-how, knowledge and grace.


----------



## andysden (Aug 9, 2011)

drum sander will work very well if close to finished size it will take off less than a thickness planer 
and finish it nicely .I have sanded as thin as 3/16 " balsa for model building with my drum sander with belt feed any thinner and you will need to place on a plank to raise up andy


----------



## Garyk (Dec 29, 2011)

I've had a Performax drum sander for years and found it invaluable. I bought mine after watching a guitar maker sanding really thin pieces for the front & back of his instruments. I always use a "carrier" board for thin stuff and attach the thin piece to the carrier with double face tape. The good cloth backed tape, not the WalMart kind. Using the carrier board I have had no problems with cupping. On my machine there are rollers on the input & output side. Taking the time to insure that the rollers are adjusted correctly is rather easy but critical to getting good results. My Performax (16/32 model) is about 20 years old and from what I have read the newer ones are improved. If you are going to do enough work on thin material to justify the cost I would highly recommend the machines. Performax was bought by another company and the name escapes me at the moment but there are several good machines out there. I have heard of CNC routers being used as surface planers but someone else will have to advise you on that. I know the high dollar CNC's can do the job through a sign maker friend. Good luck.

P.S I've used my Dewalt planer, taking small bites and using a carrier board, for thin planing with some success. The secret is a good sturdy carrier board.


----------



## DonkeyHody (Jan 22, 2015)

jruimy said:


> What an elegant response. It is filled with know-how, knowledge and grace.


Wow! "Knowledge and grace"! Thank you for the kind words sir . . . you need to talk to my wife.


----------



## johannmendelsohn (Mar 17, 2014)

Try a plain old hand plane. It works wonders!


----------



## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

Garyk said:


> I've had a Performax drum sander for years and found it invaluable. I bought mine after watching a guitar maker sanding really thin pieces for the front & back of his instruments. I always use a "carrier" board for thin stuff and attach the thin piece to the carrier with double face tape. The good cloth backed tape, not the WalMart kind. Using the carrier board I have had no problems with cupping. On my machine there are rollers on the input & output side. Taking the time to insure that the rollers are adjusted correctly is rather easy but critical to getting good results. My Performax (16/32 model) is about 20 years old and from what I have read the newer ones are improved. If you are going to do enough work on thin material to justify the cost I would highly recommend the machines. Performax was bought by another company and the name escapes me at the moment but there are several good machines out there. I have heard of CNC routers being used as surface planers but someone else will have to advise you on that. I know the high dollar CNC's can do the job through a sign maker friend. Good luck.
> 
> P.S I've used my Dewalt planer, taking small bites and using a carrier board, for thin planing with some success. The secret is a good sturdy carrier board.


This pretty much sums it up. I have both a planer and a drum sander and the drum sander you can sand to the .001" of making similar boards the same thickness. Once you use one you will never look back, I use it to thickness rough lumber at times too. 
The Performax was bought out by Jet equipment that has made some small improvements on it.
I started with the 10/20 which had a 10" wide drum and could sand 20" wide in 2 passes. After several years I graduated to the 16/32 which will sand 16" in one pass. the belts are relatively cheap and easy to change from one grit to another.
The one thing not mentioned here is that you will need a dust collection system of some sort. it creates lots of fine dust, and has to be contained. Preferably a dust collector, instead of a vacuum cleaner.
Herb


----------



## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

All good answers Bob. If you use a thickness sander you'll get flat and smooth but you will only be able to take off a few thousandths at a time so slow going if you need to take much wood off. A thickness planer will take much bigger bites but because of variations in wood density there will probably be spots that are thicker by a few thou than other spots or other boards. I also use a carrier when planing thin boards.

As Andy said there is no guarantee that what comes off will be flat. There is a native maple where I am that is a cross between a bush and a tree that I've tried getting boards out of. I finally gave up. I can flatten a square of it and when I saw a slice a piece off it looks like I was steam bending it.


----------



## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> All good answers Bob. If you use a thickness sander you'll get flat and smooth but you will only be able to take off a few thousandths at a time so slow going if you need to take much wood off. A thickness planer will take much bigger bites but because of variations in wood density there will probably be spots that are thicker by a few thou than other spots or other boards. I also use a carrier when planing thin boards.
> 
> As Andy said there is no guarantee that what comes off will be flat. There is a native maple where I am that is a cross between a bush and a tree that I've tried getting boards out of. I finally gave up. I can flatten a square of it and when I saw a slice a piece off it looks like I was steam bending it.


That must be the hockey stick maple.
Herb


----------



## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

*Small Wonder*



Herb Stoops said:


> That must be the hockey stick maple.
> Herb


Acer circinatum maybe...'vine maple'?
Couldn't find any ref. to the hockey stick maple(?).


----------



## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Douglas maple, very close to vine maple. Good guess Dan. For some reason it makes excellent spindles on the lathe but will not make a board. Every cut releases new and different tension. It also makes pretty good self bows (the primitive type that is a stick of wood and not laminated). I have 2 that a friend made me.


----------



## sunnybob (Apr 3, 2015)

Hmmm, mostly helpful. Buying a machine is not going to work. Due to my location, machines are very expensive to obtain, and I'm not making any money out of this, just dabbling with small trinket boxes and similar.

I have tried hand planing, and failed miserably and repeatedly. I'm not cut out physically or mentally to use hand planes to exact measurements.
I have had some reasonable success with a sled router, very crudely made of MDF and scrap wood.

i could make a drum sander as shown on several you tube videos, or a much more accurate "cnc" type router sled. I need to decide which.

Dust collection is sorted, I have a pretty good system on all my machines.


----------



## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Thanks, Chuck! I've probably seen hundreds of them but never questioned what they were. 
The Vine Maple has such a variety of forms that it probably gets confused with the Acer glabrum douglasii a lot.

The Wild Garden: Hansen's Northwest Native Plant Database

....from the link, some of the Pacific N.W. Maples:

(The Big Leaf is very prolific around our place.)


----------



## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

I've seen one that was 30' tall and about 12" on the stump but the grain was so badly spiraled I couldn't use any of it. The next biggest was about 8" and I did get some usable wood out of it. The grain is fairly nice. It has the medullary rays that are common to maple and often has green streaks in it. It is moderately hard.


----------



## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

DaninVan said:


> Acer circinatum maybe...'vine maple'?
> Couldn't find any ref. to the hockey stick maple(?).


Sorry, that was a joke, son. Vine maple? I don't think of maple when I think of vine maple, I think of weeds, or brush, not anything I could build something out of. The largest I have seen is only a couple of inches in diam.
We have lots of the big leaf, that is my primary building material as it is so abundant. Never seen any wild sugar maple or any other kind of maple, big leaf is maple to me. Come to think about it we did make bows to shoot arrows out of vine maple when I was growing up.
Herb


----------



## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

I kinda thought you were pulling legs, but just to be sure... 
The Vine Maple is a popular nursery plant here on the Coast. It's easily trained into a single trunk.
I have a volunteer Maple that I took pity on, and thinking it was a Big Leaf, stuck it into a spot of very good soil. Now it's 30'+ and I don't want it there...and it's _not_ a Big Leaf.


----------



## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

DaninVan said:


> I kinda thought you were pulling legs, but just to be sure...
> The Vine Maple is a popular nursery plant here on the Coast. It's easily trained into a single trunk.
> I have a volunteer Maple that I took pity on, and thinking it was a Big Leaf, stuck it into a spot of very good soil. Now it's 30'+ and I don't want it there...and it's _not_ a Big Leaf.


It must like the spot you so kindly provided for it. I hope it is not too close to the house, those maples tend to get brittle in extreme cold weather and big branches will snap off. Seen some roofs take the assault in my time.:surprise::crying:
Herb


----------



## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Nope. But it _is_ coming out/down...it spreads those twirly seed things everywhere!
Somebody at our Woodcrafters guild may be able to do something with the trunk(?). Free...or it's going in the fireplace.


----------



## JFPNCM (Dec 13, 2009)

What about the classic router skis?


----------



## thomas1389 (Jan 4, 2012)

DaninVan said:


> Acer circinatum maybe...'vine maple'?
> Couldn't find any ref. to the hockey stick maple(?).


Look under Cherry. Be careful though, it makes a loud noise when handled roughly. Also locally known as "Bigmouth Cherry"


----------



## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Bob, Jon hit the nail on the head. You can easily surface boards with a ski jig. The key is to have a large flat surface for it to ride on. You will get excellent results every time and the cost of building a ski jig is low. I think this is the perfect solution for you.

Harry builds his with steel rods that can sag unless they are 12 mm diameter. My plywood ski jig designs are very easy to build and will not sag. The young lady is planing a 2x4" in a demonstration of the jig.


----------



## sunnybob (Apr 3, 2015)

Mike, thats very helpful. I have never heard of a ski jig. I have a very rough slung together sled for a small router, which is surprisingly good for its appearance, but what you show is more a cross between a sled and a cnc router platform.

I shall have to you tube some instructions, unless you can supply plans or links, but I am capable of building that.


----------



## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Bob, I built this small ski jig to help a member with a Bosch 1604 router.(The same design as my 1601 shown) This is adjustable for height and for the router to be moved side to side in the H frame. I used furniture hanger bolts with wood screw threads on one half and machine threads on the other half. If your wood will always be less than one inch thickness you can eliminate the adjustments and fix the rails in place with wood screws.

The rails and risers are made from 3/4" plywood. 3/8" Plexiglas is used to mount the router. You want 1/2" clearance on all 4 sides of the router, remember to add 1-1/2" to the width for the short rails. The short rails are 1-5/8" tall. The long rails are 2" tall and should be 25" long to reach both sides of a 12" board.(Double the board width plus 1") This is for fixed position rails. If you build the rails adjustable as shown the router can be moved from side to side on the rails; then the long rails would be 19".(Board width plus 7" for adjustment)

Drill and countersink the screw holes in the Plexiglas and attach with #8x3/4" wood screws. These must be flush or slightly into the Plexiglas for good adjustments. If you are making adjustable rails drill and install the furniture hanger bolts. You can double nut them to install them. On a flat surface attach the long rails with washers and wing nuts for adjustable or with wood screws for fixed rails. The long rails should be flush with the Plexiglas. Now that the H frame is complete you can measure for the width of your risers. Add 2" to the width of the H frame for the riser width. Height depends on how much adjustment you will want to make.

It is very important that the H frame is perfectly level so you get a good cut. I put a 123 block under the end of each long rail to do this You can make these out of wood: 1" x 2" x3". This allows you to set the H frame for materials from under 1" up to 3" in thickness. Mount your router to the ski jig and you are ready to go.


----------



## sunnybob (Apr 3, 2015)

Thats something to think about.
I've been using this;









And considering it was cannibalised from a completely different use, its not too far out. But the problem I'm having is I have to adjust the wood upwards every time I take a cut due to the thickness of the MDF as the router fully plunged only gives me 5mm cut below the under edge.
That was why I started asking about an adjustable drum sander, but If i build something that allows me to lower the router on each pass, that will be better.
Plexiglass is very dear here though, so I expect the sled will be made of 9mm ply, with a viewing window around the cutter.


----------



## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Bob I needed to make a sled to level my woodworking bench after I built it. The sled had to be about 4' across. The sled I made was a more or less U shaped channel. You can use thinner material if you attach it to sides that are tall enough to keep the bottom from sagging. My sled was only just wide enough to fit the router.


----------



## PhilBa (Sep 25, 2014)

DonkeyHody said:


> Thickness planers are all about flat. However, the feed rollers of either a thickness planer or a drum sander will press a gentle cup or bow out of a thin board as it passes through and then you will have a piece of uniform thickness which may or may not lie flat at different times depending upon humidity. That's just one of the challenges you buy into when working with a natural, non-homogeneous product that was designed by the Creator for another purpose entirely.
> 
> Woodworkers have wrestled with this problem since the dawn of time. In order to keep a thin solid panel flat, it generally needs to be constrained in some way. Build a stiff frame around it, or glue it to a thicker, stable piece. Plywood may be your answer.


A planer sled is what's called for here. Its basically a cradle for the wood - typically 3/4 plywood. You put the warped piece of wood on the sled and shim where it doesn't make contact. Then feed it through the planer to start taking the high spots off. 

A router sled will work too, just takes a lot longer than a couple of passes through the planer.

Google "planer sled" for lots of info. Phil Thien (of baffle fame) has a nice approach here..


----------



## sunnybob (Apr 3, 2015)

Theres no money for a planer, or thicknesser. Just no point for the very few pieces I use.

The ski sled will be my basis, but I will make some kind of screw adjustable platen, so I can just dial in the thickness under the router bit. get a wider bit, and I'm good to go. Time isnt much of an issue for me either, this is just a hobby to keep me active.


----------



## rcp612 (Oct 22, 2008)

sunnybob said:


> Theres no money for a planer, or thicknesser. Just no point for the very few pieces I use.
> 
> The ski sled will be my basis, but I will make some kind of screw adjustable platen, so I can just dial in the thickness under the router bit. get a wider bit, and I'm good to go. Time isnt much of an issue for me either, this is just a hobby to keep me active.


Keep us in the loop here. I, for one, am interested in your sled build. Sounds like you have a good thought process going for adjustability.


----------



## sunnybob (Apr 3, 2015)

ok, stage 1.
But first, a word from the owner (g) This is all prototype, I'm using whatever odds and sodds I have in the garage, its for my use only. it aint pretty and it aint gonna be. If it works, there might be a mark 2 model. OK?


The sled base I've been using is quite sturdy, and will be the basis for the experiment.
I've made 4 metal pivot pieces, and fitted them to the base unit. i have a bread board glued up and drying, which i will trim and fit to the 4 metal arms with pivots into the side of the board.

The whole unit can then be lifted to the required distance from the router bit, and locked in place with the 4 set screws. then its just double sided tape under the work piece. i have almost 50mm (2") total adjustment on the pivoting board.










Might be finished tomorrow, I'll post pics and results when I can.


----------



## sunnybob (Apr 3, 2015)

well. a limited succes, but more work required.

I fitted the glued up base board, and routed it flat (flat enough for this experiment anyway)
see pic.









But adjusting all four sides is very time consuming, as the slack in the pivots is too great.

i used a piece of beech about 8" x 6" x 3/8" that was sloping 3/16" high to low across the piece. after routing i got it to less than a 1/64" maximum deviation, Which is good enough for my needs.

I'll have to think of another mechanism. maybe a bar across the base so that will operate two arms at once. That would remove 50% of the deviation. A set of cams would be good, but I cant make those acurately enough.

Strangely, I tried a second piece of beech with out moving the base or router, and that came out to the same max. deviation, but 1/32" thicker. I think its thw wood actually expanding as the inner is stress relieved. i know after I routed the soft wood table flat, 5 minutes later I had to do it again as I could see the wood had moved, and this is only 11" across!.


----------



## oldyam (Aug 2, 2015)

You could try making cams from large dia round stock and drilling the pivot points off center, this should leave you with just two adjustments which would allow for taking out any end to end thickness deviation.


----------



## jruimy (Jan 14, 2012)

DonkeyHody said:


> Wow! "Knowledge and grace"! Thank you for the kind words sir . . . you need to talk to my wife.


Hi Andy, 
I won't get involved in any discussion between you and your wife:wink:

I thought your answer was practical, knowledgeable and helpful. 

I thought your broader comment, "That's just one of the challenges you buy into when working with a natural, non-homogeneous product that was designed by the Creator for another purpose entirely," was filled with grace.

I saw my own workshop and limited skills in a completely different light after that.

Best,

Joel


----------



## The Hobbyist (Apr 25, 2015)

sunnybob said:


> I'm still having problems getting thin flat pieces of wood. I'm getting desperate here.
> My latest searches have got me interested in a drum sander, where you feed the wood through on a conveyor (hand or motor).
> i just need pieces of hard wood mostly, less than a foot across, but of a uniform thickness, which can vary from 3/16" to a 1/2" depending on the job.
> Anyone using a drum sander?
> Any opinions?


What sort of projects are you doing with this wood? Does the piece need to be made out of ONE piece of wood, or could you glue strips together to achieve the width, while using a planer to achieve the flatness and thickness you require?

*Disclaimer: I know absolutely NOTHING about woodworking*, but it would seem to me that if you glued two 1/4" solid sheets of hardwood together and crossed the grains, you would end up with a flat piece 1/2" thick that would not warp. You guys with experience can tell me if I am full of balloon juice. I won't be offended!


----------



## sunnybob (Apr 3, 2015)

The Hobbyist said:


> What sort of projects are you doing with this wood? Does the piece need to be made out of ONE piece of wood, or could you glue strips together to achieve the width, while using a planer to achieve the flatness and thickness you require?
> 
> *Disclaimer: I know absolutely NOTHING about woodworking*, but it would seem to me that if you glued two 1/4" solid sheets of hardwood together and crossed the grains, you would end up with a flat piece 1/2" thick that would not warp. You guys with experience can tell me if I am full of balloon juice. I won't be offended!


I'm making small things, like tissue box outers, trinket boxes, docking stations, etc, and I find that flat wood around 8 or 9mm thick is the easiest for me to work with. Any thinner, and it becomes fragile, any thicker and it becomes cumbersome.

Nothing grand comes from my hands, just keeping my brain amused.


----------



## sunnybob (Apr 3, 2015)

i dont have the tools to cut thick bar stock, but I think an underneath sled, worked by a single screw thread would be the simplest to use, although it will the most difficult to make. some thing like a miniature scissor jack with four lifting points.

Its a work in progress now.


----------



## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

The Hobbyist said:


> What sort of projects are you doing with this wood? Does the piece need to be made out of ONE piece of wood, or could you glue strips together to achieve the width, while using a planer to achieve the flatness and thickness you require?
> 
> *Disclaimer: I know absolutely NOTHING about woodworking*, but it would seem to me that if you glued two 1/4" solid sheets of hardwood together and crossed the grains, you would end up with a flat piece 1/2" thick that would not warp. You guys with experience can tell me if I am full of balloon juice. I won't be offended!


It might work Joe but chances are good that it also might crack. Plywood is made up of 1/8" max plies and the plies are dried well just prior to being bonded. The glue that bonds the layers is also a waterproof glue as opposed to water resistant that most of us use. That may also play a factor in why plywood holds together.


----------



## Garyk (Dec 29, 2011)

Agree with Herb on the dust system. I use a shop vac on my 16/32. If you don't have something the dust will stay on the board and cause the belt to skip or snipe the wood. If you really want an aggressive cut (planing) on the 16/32 an 80 grit belt will do it but you will have to clean up the mess with progressively higher grits. I've found Klingspors prices to be pretty good on the belts.


----------

