# Planemaker's floats



## rwyoung (Aug 3, 2008)

I've got a project going where I'm working 100% handtools to make a small storage cupboard for my finishing supplies. Just because I can. I want to add some crown molding to the top to cover the carcass dovetails but to make the crown I need some larger hollow and round planes than I currently own.

I could buy the planes (new or used) or I could make them. I'm opting to make the planes (another thread will have that happy-fun-time). But before I make the planes I need a couple of tools called "planemaker's floats".

What is a float? A float is a coarse tooth rasp or a very wide rip saw depending on how you look at it. In this case I'm going to make the floats from 3/16" O1 tool steel. One float will cut on its narrow edge, the other its face. Both will be triangular at about 12 degrees. The 12 degrees is because the mouth of the average molding plane opens up at that same angle.

I could buy a set of floats at about $60 each or $110 for two. Or I can spend $18 on tool steel plus a $3 file and make them! 

Step one, assemble the marking tools and raw materials.









This includes squares, ruler, scribe, protractor, Dykem and the all important coffee mug. I've marked out for the floats on the ends of my tool steel. I'm going to cut two blanks for each float shape just in case.

Closeups of the layout:

















Next, start cutting. I've got access to a 19" metal cutting bandsaw so I used that. Didn't take along the camera so no photos of that step. Pretty much like using a bandsaw for wood but you feed a lot slower and the cutting speed is set based on the material and thickness. Faster than a hacksaw but it still took about 2 hours to cut the four blanks plus two blade blanks and do the cleanup filing.










The two flag shaped pieces are 1/8" O1 tool steel. They will become 7/8" wide blades for the hollow and round planes. 

Now I start cutting teeth. I'll start with the edge float. The teeth are spaced about 8TPI, shaped like rip teeth on a saw and will cut on the push stroke of the float. This requires a 6 x-slim file and some patience. 


















The teeth are a bit irregular. This will get better after I finish the first pass, joint the tops then re-file to sharpen. The remaining irregularity should help stop chatter as the float cuts. 

Here's the finished float blade after filing, jointing and sharpening. 









Cheap 6 x-slim file chipped while cutting the teeth! So I'm stopping here for the day. I need to find some wood for a handle then I can test the float. And after I get a new file I can start in on the face float. That will be a little more involved to cut.


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

I'm really looking forward to following this thread, Rob. All new stuff for me to learn!


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Ditto.


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

I've been dabbling in 'resharpening" a couple old Disston saws I've picked up and must say I'm surprised at how similar the process's are. Even more surprised at how straight forward the process is when starting with a blank piece of stock tool steel. 

An excellent tutorial here... cool stuff...

thanks Rob!!


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## rwyoung (Aug 3, 2008)

TwoSkies57 said:


> I've been dabbling in 'resharpening" a couple old Disston saws I've picked up and must say I'm surprised at how similar the process's are. Even more surprised at how straight forward the process is when starting with a blank piece of stock tool steel.
> 
> An excellent tutorial here... cool stuff...
> 
> thanks Rob!!


The floats, and especially the edge float, are pretty much extra-wide rip saws. 

Talking with another guy about these, he suggested using a cold chisel to bang in the teeth. That might work BUT you would still have plenty of filing and grinding to do to flatten the sides of the float and sharpen as a chisel doesn't remove the material, just pushes it aside.

I might try using a cold chisel to START the teeth for the face float since those are much wider. The little groove would make a good reference for starting the file.


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

Rob..

are you using anything for a reference for the tooth geometry? (I've never used a float, so I'm going by what I've learned about rip saws). I've seen where small blocks of wood where attached to the tip of the file and used as a visual guide. Perhaps more so on CC saws, but I've seen em used on rips as well. Or are you just eyeballin' it? Right now, I definitely need a reference when filing. One eye on the saw/file and the other on the reference *L*....like anything else I suppose, it a matter of practice, practice, practice...once you get into a groove, its not hard at all...

The whole chisel thing is rather interesting. Would you go about it like "stamping" the material or take the corner of the chisel and work your way across the line? I would think that stamping the material would kinda 'bow' it eventually. Probably nothing that couldn't be flattened back out. How about hacksawing your reference lines?


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

....just an aside. I picked up several of LN's saw files a while back. Don't have alot of experience to compare them agaisnt anything else, but man, are they nice!! 

Also... I've been told to never "drag" the file "back" over the work piece. Always push through and then lift and return. Don't know enough about file geometry to know one way or the other? You heard of this before?


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## rwyoung (Aug 3, 2008)

TwoSkies57 said:


> ....just an aside. I picked up several of LN's saw files a while back. Don't have alot of experience to compare them agaisnt anything else, but man, are they nice!!
> 
> Also... I've been told to never "drag" the file "back" over the work piece. Always push through and then lift and return. Don't know enough about file geometry to know one way or the other? You heard of this before?


Yes, as a general rule, files cut only on the push stroke. Dragging a file back through the cut tends to dull the teeth. You might also want to invest a few bucks in a "file card". See if you can find a two sided one, it will have stiff bristles, nylon maybe, on one side and little spring steel hooks on the other. These are used to clean the swarf out of the file teeth. For a little needle file they don't work that well but it will help. Mostly the stiff nylon bristles do the trick.

I can't remember now who makes the LN saw files. Might be Grobbit? Anyway, they are supposed to be higher quality than the cheap hardware store Nicholsons. The one I chipped is a Nicholson. I have a feeling I did catch the vice jaw (which is pretty tough for obvious reasons). The chip is in the narrow sharp edge of the file which would also be its weakest point. Files are very hard and so brittle. They can be damaged if struck or dropped. 

By the way, if you plan to file really soft metals like brass, consider passing the file over some chalk first. This fills in the grooves with chalk and the brass swarf has a hard time clogging them. Makes it easier to clean the file later. For saw filing, etc, this doesn't help much. Just keep the card handy and occasionally swipe the file across the bristles. 

You can also try soaking a dull file in mild acid solution (vinegar, citric acid, etc) which lightly etch the file. This sharpens the file by creating sharp arrises on the tiny teeth again. Can also help clean out swarf stuck in the file.


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

Just ordered the exact file card you mentioned the other day from LV. Free shipping til the 11th I think.. #$10.50. The old brass golf club head cleaner just wasn't getting the job done *L*

Great couple of tips with the chalk and soaking....thanks!!! 

bill


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

In my "Properties of Materials" class in engineering school some 30+ years ago I vaguely remember studying "work hardening", where metal is hardened by deformation. I believe that would be a benefit of using a chisel to form the metal teeth although the details of it have long since escaped me. I'm pretty sure you could Google "Work hardening" for more information, if desired.

Boy you guys tax my memory of ancient history!


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

BigJimAK said:


> I'm pretty sure you could Google "Work hardening" for more information, if desired.
> 
> Boy you guys tax my memory of ancient history!


geez, now I"ve got a headache.. :wacko: I did just that. I read (some of) the Wikipedia explanation and found it to be quite interesting. Way out of my league, but interesting none the less. Two things quickly came to mind. First is that using the chisel may indeed be an excellent choice/method for creating the initial filing lines. By using the chisel, one actually increases the hardness of the material by more or less stamping the chisel into the tool steel. Two advantages here would be 1) executing a much more uniform pattern <when deemed to be an advantage> and 2) the deformed edge is now actually harder than prior to being "deformed" by the chisel. This would be cause for additional effort during the filing process, however, edge retention would increase due to the additional strengthing/hardening of the steel?????

wait til i get my hands on that alaska guy!!!!

Now with all that banter behind me, this explains the distinct advantages of hand stitched chisels/rasps. Auriou comes to mind as well as several high end French rasps. the stitching is done randomly not allowing for a pattern to be created and the material is actually made harder by the process itself..

cool...

does this sound about right mr. wizard????


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## rwyoung (Aug 3, 2008)

The slightly random pattern than comes from hand cutting/stitching should minimize chatter. 

As to the work hardening from using a cold chisel, yeah you might expect a little bit but really most (if not all) would get filed away during the creation of the teeth, jointing then sharpening. Don't loose any sleep over it. 

Ultimately a file would be hardened then tempered just a little bit to "relax" the steel and make it a little bit less brittle. Files and rasps are just about as hard as the alloy can get. Any work hardening that took place would be nullified by the hardening and tempering steps. Plane blades and chisels hang out around RC55 to RC65 depending on who made them, phase of the moon, alloy, etc. So again, don't fret over it. Just enjoy the tools.

I'm not going to harden my floats initially, just want to see how they cut. If I do harden them I'll probably shoot for around RC50 which would be a the low end for chisels/blades but the high end for saws.

Another note, looking again at the Lie-Nielsen floats, theirs are made from S7 (I'm using O1 steel). S7 is softer in its annealed state so it would be more workable in a pressing or stamping operation. It may be that LN stamps the teeth, does a little preliminary grinding and filing then hardens the material. Just guessing. But a die and press operation would be pretty fast if you wanted to make 1,000 of them.

And to answer your earlier question about how I initially spaced the teeth, look at the vice jaws in the pictures. I drew a series of lines 1/8" apart on some blue tape, stuck that down to the jaws then slit it with a razor blade. Now I have reference lines on the vice for starting the teeth. To start them on the edge float I just lifted up the the file handle and nicked the edge of the blank. Then in about three strokes I keep lowering the file handle until the line ran across the blank. 

Using a hacksaw or cold chisel to make the initial lines would work too. For the face float I'll probably use that technique since the teeth will be quite wide at the handle end of the blank.


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

*L* well, I guess I'd get a solid, kinda, sorta, maybe on my last post! I think I was taking the whole process of work hardening to an extreme. Something I tend to do, but I'm gonna blame Jim anyways! 
I now understand that you'll only minimally 'raise' the metal if you use a cold chisel to start your reference lines. Since practically all of the filing of the teeth will be done below the surface line of the material. 
Jointing will then remove most what had been raised anyways as part of the sharpening process, followed by hardening/tempering which would make the piece of stock uniform again (metallurgically speaking). IF you were to choose to take it that far. ok, gotcha! I hope! 
I do hope you decide to harden/temper at least one of the floats. I've only just begun to demonstrate my ignorance when it comes to this whole process. I do find it fascinating and most interesting. I appreciate your patience thus far!

b.


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

Just call me Doctor Eeeeeevil...


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

OK... objective... couple of nice marking knives...
picked up a piece of 1/8th x 2 1/2 x 12+ O1 steel off of the bay. 
Initially thought perhaps a bit thin, but then again, for a marking knife might 
be just about right..

Now, does anyone have a free weekend they can let me borrow?


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

Bill... No spare weekends but I'll give you next Monday and Tuesday off (with pay, of course), if you'll do the same for me! <g>


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

TwoSkies57 said:


> OK... objective... couple of nice marking knives...
> picked up a piece of 1/8th x 2 1/2 x 12+ O1 steel off of the bay.
> Initially thought perhaps a bit thin, but then again, for a marking knife might
> be just about right..
> ...


Please publish here. I need a new striking knife. My old one got dropped and chipped and if I attempt to grind it I'm afraid I'll lose the temper.


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## rwyoung (Aug 3, 2008)

allthunbs said:


> Please publish here. I need a new striking knife. My old one got dropped and chipped and if I attempt to grind it I'm afraid I'll lose the temper.


Try some 100 (120, 150, whatever) sandpaper stuck down to a flat surface. Tablesaw wing, jointer wing, marble tile, 3/8" float glass, etc. For such a small piece you should be able to draw it against the sandpaper by hand and reform the bevel.

The angle isn't critical, just need to get it sharp. 

And I've been getting my steel from either McMaster-Carr or Enco. Both are quite reasonable. Some Fastenall retail locations carry small quantities too.

I would be interested in learning of the eBay source for comparison.


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

here ya go Rob.. this is the sellers home page on the bay..

sheakleyantiques items - Get great deals on Business Industrial, Books items on eBay.com!

I paid 25 bucks for the piece I picked up. plus 2.45 shipping. Turned out the guy is about an hour and a half north of me...good communication, excellent 
shipping.

Rob.. what tooth configuration did you use when you bandsawed your metal?


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

BigJimAK said:


> Bill... No spare weekends but I'll give you next Monday and Tuesday off (with pay, of course), if you'll do the same for me! <g>


Jim...

man, its always sumptin isn't it? :big_boss: Spent last few weekends building a garden box for the son in law and grandson. (12'x8') A little late in the season to be sure, but the grandson just loved the idea of having a "vegetable party" so he twisted my arm. *L* anyways, the idea was really to have em ready to go come next spring. 


this weekend I've got to get at and plumb in a outside garden hose for the garden .....


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## rwyoung (Aug 3, 2008)

TwoSkies57 said:


> OK... objective... couple of nice marking knives...
> picked up a piece of 1/8th x 2 1/2 x 12+ O1 steel off of the bay.
> Initially thought perhaps a bit thin, but then again, for a marking knife might
> be just about right..
> ...


For future reference:

McMaster-Carr, O1, 1/8" x 2-1/2" x 18" precision ground $20.71 plus about $5 shipping. The last stuff I ordered from McMaster-Carr that was listed as "precision ground" was Sterret brand.

I'm not sure what the bandsaw at the machine shop has for a tooth configuration. The last marking knife I made I used W1 steel and just cut it to length with a hacksaw and used a mill file to shape it. Easy enough. W1 was nice because I could quench in water instead of oil. No smoke, no mess. But its hard to get W1 in the larger sizes.


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

Great source Rob.. thanks..


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

rwyoung said:


> Try some 100 (120, 150, whatever) sandpaper stuck down to a flat surface. Tablesaw wing, jointer wing, marble tile, 3/8" float glass, etc. For such a small piece you should be able to draw it against the sandpaper by hand and reform the bevel.
> 
> The angle isn't critical, just need to get it sharp.
> 
> ...


Hi Rob:

Thanks. It was the point that was broken off and if I try to regrind it, I have to remove too much material. So I'm using it "as is" for the moment until I create a new one. I'm not going to buy one I'm going to try to make it. All I have is a grinder and the scary sharp method. Wish me luck. I'll get there but it won't be quick.


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## rwyoung (Aug 3, 2008)

allthunbs said:


> Hi Rob:
> 
> Thanks. It was the point that was broken off and if I try to regrind it, I have to remove too much material. So I'm using it "as is" for the moment until I create a new one. I'm not going to buy one I'm going to try to make it. All I have is a grinder and the scary sharp method. Wish me luck. I'll get there but it won't be quick.


Unless you snapped the blade in two, you should be able to reshape in less than 1/2 hour with sandpaper on glass/marble. No worry of messing up the temper that way.

On the other hand, if you do mess up the temper a little bit on a marking knife, it is no big deal. They still work, they still mark. But you may find the edge rolls over a little quickly or dings a little to easily if you brush up against a steel ruler. The edge on a marking knife doesn't need to be a s keen as a chisel or plane because you are almost always making a slicing motion.

Good luck.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

rwyoung said:


> Unless you snapped the blade in two, you should be able to reshape in less than 1/2 hour with sandpaper on glass/marble. No worry of messing up the temper that way.


Interesting observation. I have most of the components for the scary sharp system but I'm building posts at the moment so that's lower on the priority scale. 



> On the other hand, if you do mess up the temper a little bit on a marking knife, it is no big deal. They still work, they still mark. But you may find the edge rolls over a little quickly or dings a little to easily if you brush up against a steel ruler. The edge on a marking knife doesn't need to be a s keen as a chisel or plane because you are almost always making a slicing motion.


That's what I like. Even if I screw up badly, it won't be that bad :jester:

Thanks Bob.


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## rwyoung (Aug 3, 2008)

allthunbs said:


> Interesting observation. I have most of the components for the scary sharp system but I'm building posts at the moment so that's lower on the priority scale.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I've seen marking knives with very shallow bevels and I've seen them with steep, short bevels. I don't think it matters! The last couple I've made I just tried for something between 20 and 30 degrees. Meh (verbal shoulder shrug) close enough.


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## dhammer (Nov 15, 2010)

*tool steel*



rwyoung said:


> For future reference:
> 
> McMaster-Carr, O1, 1/8" x 2-1/2" x 18" precision ground $20.71 plus about $5 shipping. The last stuff I ordered from McMaster-Carr that was listed as "precision ground" was Sterret brand.
> 
> .


You might want to check out Victor Machinery in NY. I'd post a link but I'm new here and don't have the required number of posts. They are having a closeout on odd sized Sheffield O1 tool steel @ 50% off regular price. I bought some 7/32 X 2 X18 oil hardening steel from them for half of what Enco wants...made great plane irons. The paper wrap looks like it had been around since WW11..I love it.


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## dutchman 46 (May 23, 2007)

Very interesting. Would a small cutting wheel work to cut into shape the teeth, before filing? I do a bit of shaping with a die grinder with a thin cot off blade. Cutting the shape you use can be greatly shorten the time, I would think. This is interesting! but I don't know how to find the Quality time to do it?


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