# Solid wood top vs Phenolic insert



## Drugstore Cowboy (May 17, 2007)

Planning on building my own router table.
Strictly hobbyist level use.
Current router 1.75 hp Ryobi 1/4" 
Have seen plans I like on seemingly trustworthy sites for a table top made strictly of layered hardwood plywood leaving 3/8" thickness where the router is to be mounted.
Other sites - some clearly connected with sales of the rectangular phenolic insert plate insist this is the only safe way.

Input would be welcome - particularly on any reason a solid wood top is a safety issue.
The point of avoiding the use of the insert is avoiding the $49 cost.
Input on less expensive options would also be welcome.

thanks


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## Joe Lyddon (Sep 11, 2004)

Drugstore Cowboy said:


> Planning on building my own router table.
> Strictly hobbyist level use.
> Current router 1.75 hp Ryobi 1/4"
> Have seen plans I like on seemingly trustworthy sites for a table top made strictly of layered hardwood plywood leaving 3/8" thickness where the router is to be mounted.
> ...


Drugstore Cowboy,

Here is something that may help you...
I would stay away from 'solid wood' for a top...
Study this video for the fine points... you'll learn...
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesArticle.aspx?id=28007

Here, Tom has two dedicated router tables... with his favorite 2 bits available at all times... Note how fancy his stuff is...  
I found out that the sections that hold the routers are Corian with the routers mounted directly to them.
http://www.plamann.com/sys-tmpl/intheshopiii/view.nhtml?profile=intheshopiii&UID=10005

EDIT: I think I remember him saying that one is for 1/2" shanks and the other for 1/4" shanks...


*W e l c o m e . . A b o a r d !!​*


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## challagan (Feb 7, 2006)

Many ways to make a router table that is for sure. Not a thing wrong with using hardwood plywood for a router table. The handy thing about a router plate vs mounting directily to the plywood is you can remove it easily for making bit changes etc. I have seen several plans that have the router mounted directly to plywood. I would avoid the solid wood myself for the top, it just moves to much. Pat Warner's router table is made from MDF with no laminated top. The laminated tops make it nice and slick and easy to mark on and wipe off etc. Lot's of ways to do it!

corey


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

There is no safety issue I can think of when mounting a router directly to a wooden table top. It will work. It will be much more difficult to change bits and you pretty much rule out the use of guide bushings and templates with a solid wood mounting method. Another consideration is for the wood to be strong enough to support the router it will need to be thicker than a phenolic plate so you will end up losing some of your cutting depth.(or in this case bit height above the table) If you can live with all these limitations then you will save a few dollars. If you really want to save money forget about a table for now and make a new sub base plate that accepts guide bushings. You can learn about building jigs to work with them in our jigs and templates section. When you are ready to build a table it really is best to use a mounting plate, be it aluminum, steel or phenolic.


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## Drugstore Cowboy (May 17, 2007)

Clarification - 
When I said "solid wood" I was referring to -- "all wood" as opposed to wood with an insert. 

The plans I saw that I was thinking of using were in the June 2001 Popular Woodworking. The top was made of 2 - 3/4" thicknesses of birch plywood glued together with the area where the router would be mounted hollowed out down to 3/8" thickness.

I've used the aluminum router tables with the router mounted directly to the top -- so I am used to the issues that raises with bit changes etc.

The only thing that concerned me was a comment on one site that mounting to wood rather than an insert -- ran a risk of the router tearing loose.
This sounded like 'salesman talk' to me -- but - I wanted to be sure I wasn't blowing something off that I should pay attention to.


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

The risk you mention would be very real with a 3-1/4 HP router. These units develop serious torque. Your Ryobi would not be a problem. Two layers of 3/4" plywood is a bit of overkill. Let me suggest you click on the link at the top of our home page and visit Oak Park, the sponsor of the Router Workshop. There you will see a very good table design, it handles just about anything you throw at it. The table is constructed with 1/2" Baltic Birch plywood, the table top is 3/4" BB plywood laminated on both sides with Formica. This design has withstood 14 seasons of television shows with 3-1/4 HP routers. I believe the plans for this table are $4. You can build this yourself without the phenolic plate, simply rout the size opening you need half way through the top. The real beauty of this is should you change your mind you will be able to easily mount a plate in place of your through holes. Baltic Birch plywood has many fine layers and is much stronger than your average birch plywood found at a home center. You can purchase this from lumber yards or woodworking specialty stores like Rockler or Woodcraft.


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## Joe Lyddon (Sep 11, 2004)

The Oak Park table top kit:
http://us.oak-park.com/catalogue.html?list=BYOT--

*Advantages of This Kit: *

-Table top laminated on both sides, guaranteed not to warp;
-Pre-cut base plate recess;
-Pre-drilled mounting holes for spacer fences;
-Pre-drilled base plate to mount to your router;
-Available with standard plate or with the vacu-system;
*-Plans included to complete the router table;*
-Purchase this kit *and save compared to purchasing these items separately! *

Build Your Own Table *On Sale* 152.95


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## Drugstore Cowboy (May 17, 2007)

Cory -
Thanks for the mention of Pat Warner. Checked that site and thought it was interesting he seems to DISlike inserts as much as some sites push them.
I like MDF for desktops etc. Hadn't considered it.
Joe-
Thanks for the suggestion -- I had already looked at the Oak Park table top kit-
If I decide to go with an insert -- I think I will probably order that.
Mike -
Thank you for reminding me there was a THIRD option --
That I could add an insert later if I decided the convenience was worth the cost.
I'm thinking right now THAT is the way I am going to go.

One last question - assuming I stick with my plans for not using an insert.
Mike mentions that the wood would need to be thicker than the insert to provide the same support - thus losing some of my depth of cut. Frankly - I was concerned aobut that too.
But the plans I have looked at for 'non-insert' tops say I can get by with leaving only 3/8" - same thickness as an inser. The logic seems to be -- if I route out ONLY the space occupied by the router base -- support is actually being provided by the surrounding table. Are they/I missing something important?


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Many inserts are 1/4" thick, some are 3/8". Using BB plywood a 3/8" thickness should be strong enough for support. For home center grade plywood you would need 1/2" thickness for safety. This is due to the difference in construction between the plywoods.

I will edit this later today showing photos of BB and home center grade side by side.


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## AxlMyk (Jun 13, 2006)

My first table top was 3/4" MDF and I still have it.. I made a new top with MDF, but put a Rousseau insert in it.. Either way works fine.. I use the first top for portable use, such as when we go north for a week I take it and clamp it to the work bench up there..


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## RustyW (Dec 28, 2005)

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=94331

This is the same plate that MLCS sells (I have one from each) but less expensive. Right now I have a Hitachi M12V2 hanging under one of them. Hav'nt had any problems with them other than the rarely used starting pin fits a little loose.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Cowboy

I have many router tables and the one I like best is a Phenolic top with a Phenolic insert that is 3/8" thick to hold a 3 1/4 H P router 



Bj


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## Drugstore Cowboy (May 17, 2007)

MLCS?
Dont recognize those initials.
It LOOKS (much as you can tell in a picture) just like the kit that Woodcraft sells for $49 (the one I was impressed with but was avoiding buying due to cost.
The $19 price here would make a big difference.
Anyone know if its the same?
There is a Harbor Freight just up the road from me. Have to check it out tomorrow.
SIDE NOTE:
Just got back from HD and found it interesting that Ryobi's own low-end router table was simple 3/4" mdf hollowed out to 3/8" to screw the router to the table --either directly or with an adapter. I was pretty UNimpressed with it for several other reasons though. INTERESTINGLY -- the top was not predrilled for Ryobi routers.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Cowboy

Use the search tool on the forum and you will see MLCS popup all over the place. 

Bj


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Both the MLCS and HF mounting plates are imitations of the Rousseau plate minus the patented features. Both of these plates should be perfectly flat. The Rousseau plate has a slightly convex shape, rather than a long explanation just know it works well. You can use a Rousseau mounting template kit to quickly install any of these plates.


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## Drugstore Cowboy (May 17, 2007)

Thanks for introducing me to MLCS -- Looks like they have some interesting stuff at good prices. Just wish they had a local store. I'm very old-school -- whenever possible I prefer having the item in my hand when I turn loose of money.
We are luck to have both a Harbor Freight and a Woodcraft store here (covering both ends).
I had been looking at the Rousseau plate to to see what the difference might be. I noticed that they specified it was slightly raised in the center - I assumed that was to compensate for any possible sag introduced by the router.
I understand that the Rousseau plate is a more highly engineered product - and you get what you pay for.
But -- I think I hear you saying -- the HF product should be quite acceptable for light to middle weight uses. Correct me if I am wrong.

THANKS again -- for enduing my ramblings


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## curiousgeorge (Nov 6, 2006)

Cowboy, I don't know if you knew it or not but there is a Rockler store in South Arlington off I20 and Cooper south of the mall.


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## RustyW (Dec 28, 2005)

I have both the HF and the MLCS plates. They are identical and came in the same packaging. Allthough HF states that the plate is flat, its not. Both that I have are convex like the Rousseau. I thought it was that way so it could self-correct when used with a heavy router. But I've had a 2 1/4 hp router under one for nearly 2 years. And now a 3 1/4 hp router, and there still convex. 

Just a note- the Harbor Freight store near me does not stock it, I had to order it on there website. But I think I got something from them the other day saying you could order items in the store, ship to the store. Then pick up with no shipping charges.


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

The reason for the slightly convex shape is to ensure as the wood passes the bit it is at exactly the same height. None of the phenolic plates have ever sagged as far as I know. Rusty, do both plates fit PC style guide bushings? And do both plates have the circles on the back to help align your router when mounting? If so then I would purchase the Rousseau template kit, mounting kit for your specific router and the HF plate. I will be checking out one of these plates on my next visit to HF.


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## RustyW (Dec 28, 2005)

Yes they have 2 removable rings. The smallest takes PC guides and with both removed theres plenty of room for large 3 1/2" panel cutters. The plate is 3/8" thick but is rabbited down to 1/4" around the edge. It has threaded inserts in all 4 corners and comes with four 1/4" magnets to imbed under them. And it does have the rings on the bottom for alignment. Pics are of the one I recently got from HF (still in package).


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## Drugstore Cowboy (May 17, 2007)

Mike - Rusty --
Thanks --- sounds like the HF version is pretty much just a 'generic' of the Rousseau.
I've learned the hard way that these are NOT always as good as the 'name' brands.
But -- IF this one IS just as good (at least for my purposes) then $19 is a lot more attractive than $49.
And no - I am NOT always this 'cheap'. I value quality. I don't mind spending extra when I need to -- I'm just like to be convinced that I NEED to. 
As for the convex shape -- I mostly found it interesting Rousseau was 'bragging' about that when everyone else was bragging about theirs being 'perfectly flat'. (Yes - sometimes I am easily intrigued.) 

George -
No - I didn't. Thanks. I'll check it out.


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## Falegname (Nov 26, 2007)

*Help with Harbor Freight table insert*

Based on some favorable comments in this forum, I recently bought a HF table insert. It arrived today. In an earlier post someone mentioned the insert is convex, and I found that to be the case with the one that came today. Looking at it from the top, it curves downward, in other words it is convex on the top. Is that correct? 

With a convex insert, how does one go about rabbeting the table for the insert when the edges curve upward from the center? This is my first attempt at something like this, and I'd prefer not to mess up the top of the table I just finished building. Can someone help me here? Thanks, I appreciate it.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Falegname

Call the 800 number and have them send you a new one It should be FLAT..
I have 2 hanging on the wall in the shop and they are Flat...

But you want to be 99% sure of what you are saying is right,,, button your router up to the plate then put use a strait edge and see if the plate is flat because the router is pulling the plate down flat in place..


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Falegname said:


> Based on some favorable comments in this forum, I recently bought a HF table insert. It arrived today. In an earlier post someone mentioned the insert is convex, and I found that to be the case with the one that came today. Looking at it from the top, it curves downward, in other words it is convex on the top. Is that correct?
> 
> With a convex insert, how does one go about rabbeting the table for the insert when the edges curve upward from the center? This is my first attempt at something like this, and I'd prefer not to mess up the top of the table I just finished building. Can someone help me here? Thanks, I appreciate it.


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## Router is still my name (May 3, 2006)

> The only thing that concerned me was a comment on one site that mounting to wood rather than an insert -- ran a risk of the router tearing loose.
> This sounded like 'salesman talk' to me -- but - I wanted to be sure I wasn't blowing something off that I should pay attention to.


I didn't think it was possible either until my router went flying off yanked out of it’s plunge base and…

http://www.routerforums.com/attachments/lobby/8734-can-you-believe-dcp_5196.jpg

http://www.routerforums.com/lobby/6014-can-you-believe.html


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## Falegname (Nov 26, 2007)

Thanks BJ. I called the 800 number and they are sending me a new plate. If that one isn't satisfactory, the will refund my money. Appreciate your help.


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## jjciesla (Oct 20, 2007)

Hi Falegname
That was a good catch on your part. I have a Veritas table that is 1/4" steel. The table is slightly coined in the middle (convex) (as manufactured) to allow for the weight of the router to pull it flat. (Due to the force of gravity) 
Convex - curved or rounded outward like the exterior of a sphere or circle
Concave - hollowed or rounded inward like the inside of a bowl
The structure under a table is important for the router support. As Bob indicated, that plate needs to be very flat. {GOOD Catch  )
Jim


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## Falegname (Nov 26, 2007)

Jim, thanks for the info. I made an error when first posting the question. The plate is CONCAVE, i.e. the center would be lower than the edges when set in the table. The edges and the ends curve upward from the center. What puzzled me was how in the foggy blue morning could the curved surfaces of the plate be set into a uniform rabbet 3/8" deep? As mentioned in an earlier post, HF was very accommodating and is sending a new one. Fingers crossed that it's flat!


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## Gator95 (Feb 14, 2008)

Main disadvantage of mounting in plywood is loosing some depth. May not matter on some bits. I made a 'router table insert' for my B&D workmate by using a piece of plywood cut to the size of the center board on the workmate and a pair of spacers to get the height flush with the other two boards on the workmate, and mounted the router that. Anyone who has a workmate probably understands what I'm talking about. Easy underneath access, works fine for really simple stuff so far, to change bits I just loosen the workmate clamps and pull the router insert out with the router.


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## Falegname (Nov 26, 2007)

Harbor Freight sent me a second table insert. It too, is concave. Frustrating!! Am I missing something here? Is there any way short of a 16# sledge to flatten a phenolic plate? Heat? Has anyone else experienced the same thing with HF?


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi James

Sorry you got one more the same way ..

How are you checking the plate ?, just asking. 
" concave " = has a dip in the center of the plate and if so how much. ? ,with or without the snap in rings in place ?.....

Like I said I have two of them and they are flat...

Definitions of concave on the Web:

* curving inward
http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

* Denotes a spherically shaped surface, curved inward.
http://www.zygo.com/

I use a FLAT machined bar of steel 1/2" thick , 1 1/2" tall and 3ft long to check the ones I have...and others...
I also use a 4ft Alum. level when I need to check a big router table.
Most levels are true and flat....



=========


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## Falegname (Nov 26, 2007)

Bob, both are definitely concave. With the rings in and a straightedge diagonally across the plate, the first one measures 1/8" low in the center and the second one measures 1/16" low. When siting along the long edge it is curved like a bow in board, and when siting along the short edge it is curved like a cupped board. Understand this is straight out of the package; not mounted on the router.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi James

Give this a try ,mount the router to one of the plates, because the base of the router is flat it may pull the plate flat,,, can't hurt, if you still have the error, then return them both and get your money back 

At that point you may want to order one from OP...they are a bit highter in price but they are flat...


http://us.oak-park.com/catalogue.html?list=BP--

OR
From Rockler
http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=1385&filter=router plate

http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=19516&filter=router plate

http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=10270&filter=router plate

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## Falegname (Nov 26, 2007)

Thanks Bob. That's exactly what I had planned to do. There seems to be enough flex in the second one, 1/16" off, that it might flatten out when attached to a router. We'll see what happens. Another option is to make my own insert. I picked up a 1/4" piece of polycarbonate from a local plastic fabricator. Probably smaller than 9" x 12" to eliminate flex. Might check with him to see if there's a way to flatten one of the plates.


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## Thrifty Tool Guy (Aug 23, 2007)

Cowboy,

Amazon has the Bench Dog phenolic plates on sale for $14 and the 28" fence for $68. If you want a plate, that is a good price. I definitely recommend the fence at that price......it's a good product, that I own and use. 

IMHO, buiding the table from either plywood or MDF is good, but you'll want to do something to reduce the table thickness at the router base to avoid losing bit travel. This is especially true for plunge routers. My solution has been to build the table from two layers of material, a thick piece of ply or MDF beneath a layer of 1/4" hardwood plywood. Contact your local kitchen cabinet builder/installer for the 1/4" ply (he should have some scrap), but avoid the temptation to use his low density partical board (commom counter material). Prior to gluing the two layers together (I use contact cement), cut a hole in the thick material at the desired router mount point which slightly larger than the router base. After the glue-up, laminate the top of the table (the exposed side of the 1/4" ply) with laminate. As with the 1/4" ply, the laminate is usually available for the asking at your local kitchen cabinet installer.

The remainder of the effort is just drilling and countersinking holes to mount the router. You might also like to drill a hole for the bit.

In any event, that is my thoughts........I've done a couple of these for my friends and they've seemed pleased.

TTG


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