# Burn marks



## LaserSchatts (Nov 18, 2012)

Hello everyone, 
I'm working on making a napkin holder for my mom for Christmas, I have burn marks on the ogee, which I have lightly sanded but I don't want to sand too much and destroy the profile and where I cut with my table saw, this I can sand enough to remove the burns, the question is... Is there something I could put on the marks to remove them or will I just have to keep sanding, I am fairly new to the routing world, please help!
With my laser I can use orange spray and remove it but its easier to remove

Thanks in advance


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

Is there any chance you can run the piece past the ogee again for a fine skim cut?


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Burn marks and not just skin deep the norm just paint it brown or black.

===


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## LaserSchatts (Nov 18, 2012)

Took a little off with the bit, it helped, but its still there so I guess I'll be painting or a dark stain.
Thanks


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## david k (Oct 22, 2012)

john find a piece of dowel that fits your profile wrap sand paper around it and go to town.remember to go well past your burn to even out your sanding.good luck


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## Wildwood (Aug 14, 2010)

John - I usually find that wetting the area to raise the grain makes the sanding more effective


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## LaserSchatts (Nov 18, 2012)

wetting the area and using a dowel, are things I wouldn't of thought of, I guess I have some new ideas to try!
Thanks! Rob and David


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## neville9999 (Jul 22, 2010)

LaserSchatts said:


> Hello everyone,
> I'm working on making a napkin holder for my mom for Christmas, I have burn marks on the ogee, which I have lightly sanded but I don't want to sand too much and destroy the profile and where I cut with my table saw, this I can sand enough to remove the burns, the question is... Is there something I could put on the marks to remove them or will I just have to keep sanding, I am fairly new to the routing world, please help!
> With my laser I can use orange spray and remove it but its easier to remove
> 
> Thanks in advance


John end grain can often be a problem, router cutters are not all the same, quality cutters are far more expensive that the ones that come in a kit and they do have to be sharp, kit cutters can be sharpened and that does help but the cost of getting them properly sharp may well be out weighed by just buying a new one that is a better brand, I never buy or use kit cutters unless they are a top brand, if the cutter is an OK brand then try running the cutter speed a bit slower as that also helps, if the cutter is sharp and the speed is OK then you should not get burns like you show so my opinion is that the cutter has gone off and needs to be sharpened, if you have to sand that profile enough to get rid of the burn then the profile will get damaged and my experience is that the burn like that cannot be fixed well enough to be polished normally and it would only br OK if you were going to paint it, small pieces of wood are cheap and xmas is still a long way away, try to get the cutter sorted out and then make a new base and your burn problem will go away. NGM


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## LaserSchatts (Nov 18, 2012)

Neville,
yeah, I bought a kit with 40 router bits, I'm positive its the bits that are crap and yeah the board I bought from Rockler for $3, so to save a lot of time my best option might be what you suggested unless I paint it, going to home improvement store later today and I guess I'll weigh the options.
I also learned to cut the end grain first to prevent tearout, this forum is very helpful!


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## neville9999 (Jul 22, 2010)

LaserSchatts said:


> Neville,
> yeah, I bought a kit with 40 router bits, I'm positive its the bits that are crap and yeah the board I bought from Rockler for $3, so to save a lot of time my best option might be what you suggested unless I paint it, going to home improvement store later today and I guess I'll weigh the options.
> I also learned to cut the end grain first to prevent tearout, this forum is very helpful!


The best advice that I can give about router cutters is to not buy cheap cutters, regardless of if they are part of a kit or not, I will bet that most of the cutters in that set of 40, that you will not ever use them all, just buy good quality cutters that come in single packets, get then sharpened when they should be sharpened as good quality cutters deserve to be treated kindly, over time you will get a set of cutters that you do use, and as they cost more, then you will treat them better, Don't ever forget that working with wood is fun, NGM


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## damnitboy (Mar 3, 2012)

The simplest advise I could give was feed as fast as you can while maintaining the surface finish you want. The mail justification for this is if your just cutting chips the size of dust, the heat is staying in the cut. The larger the chip you generate the more heat will be evacuated in the chip. You can do the surface feet calculations along with the chip load to determin your inch per minute feed rate if you are running a CNC but manually, feed as fast as you can to get your desired finish and you will have the best chance of not burning.

Do a Google search on "Wood Feed And Speed Rates" there is allot of information on this subject.

-Eloy


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## Tool Home LLC (Sep 18, 2012)

damnitboy said:


> The simplest advise I could give was feed as fast as you can while maintaining the surface finish you want. The mail justification for this is if your just cutting chips the size of dust, the heat is staying in the cut. The larger the chip you generate the more heat will be evacuated in the chip. You can do the surface feet calculations along with the chip load to determin your inch per minute feed rate if you are running a CNC but manually, feed as fast as you can to get your desired finish and you will have the best chance of not burning.
> 
> Do a Google search on "Wood Feed And Speed Rates" there is allot of information on this subject.
> 
> -Eloy



As Eloy points out, even with a quality, sharp bit, a feed and speed problem can cause the burning. There is an optimum feed/speed (rotational speed) for each situation. With a CNC, both feed and speed can be changed to get a better cut. With hand-held or table routing, one can only feed at a comfortable rate, (which varies for different people), so the feed is sort of "fixed". That's where variable or multi-speed routers come in. The bit should really only be turning fast enough to not chatter at the applied feed rate.

Also as Eloy pointed out, the burning is likely caused by the bit or blade "dwelling". If the cutter isn't removing enough material with each cut, it is not dissipating heat but rather generating heat. The chips remove heat from both the wood and the metal. If they aren't being created properly, the wood burns plus, the cutter overheats and suffers.

Sharp, clean cutters are important as well but even with sharp, clean cutters, ignoring speed/feed rates will cause burning of the work piece and dulling of the cutter.


Tom


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## LaserSchatts (Nov 18, 2012)

I am definitely sold on the good bits now, last week I bought a Diablo spiral bit, and its amazing smooth and quick, just debating on which one I will be getting next. I seen that Freud has "Quadra" ogee bits, has anyone used these? I am wondering if they are alot better than the 2 blade design. They look like they are.:yes2:


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## Tool Home LLC (Sep 18, 2012)

LaserSchatts said:


> I am definitely sold on the good bits now, last week I bought a Diablo spiral bit, and its amazing smooth and quick, just debating on which one I will be getting next. I seen that Freud has "Quadra" ogee bits, has anyone used these? I am wondering if they are alot better than the 2 blade design. They look like they are.:yes2:


I haven't used the Quadra bits but I know Freud generally makes good bits... 

By the feed/speed logic I related just above, it would not make sense to have twice as many cutters unless you can slow the rotation down by half. As a result, I'm wondering if it is largely a marketing ploy? I can't imagine that you are going to get a "better cut" just because you have twice as many cutters. In fact, if you can't slow the rotation enough, you will get burning more easily and dull the cutters faster.

If you can, indeed, slow the router down so that the bit is still cutting properly for your feed rate, having twice as many cutters could be a good investment. That assumes you are going to wear out the cutters multiple times and eventually need a whole new bit. 

The reason I say this is that the cutters are only part of the cost of a bit, the body of the bit is a significant portion of the cost so having to change the body half as often, saves money. It's the same logic with buying bits that have replaceable cutters. If you use a bit enough, the higher initial cost eventually becomes a lower lifetime cost because you never pay to replace the body of the bit.


Tom


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## ayesha irshad (Dec 3, 2012)

why you dont color it in some dark color and hide the stain??


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## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

Tool Home LLC said:


> I haven't used the Quadra bits but I know Freud generally makes good bits...
> 
> By the feed/speed logic I related just above, it would not make sense to have twice as many cutters unless you can slow the rotation down by half. As a result, I'm wondering if it is largely a marketing ploy? I can't imagine that you are going to get a "better cut" just because you have twice as many cutters. In fact, if you can't slow the rotation enough, you will get burning more easily and dull the cutters faster.
> 
> ...


A quadra bit has extra cutters with angles optimized for different parts of the profile.. it's not simply having 4 cutters instead of two! This is to eliminate the "fuzzing" that many bits produce.


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