# $&)(//:; Red Oak !!!!



## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

So I picked a bunch of seemingly the same grain, color, etc... Red oak steps and risers for my stairs project. I am looking for that golden look...nothing out of the ordinary. I sanded until nice and smooth to 220 grit and then the stain monster got me.

I put a coat of Minwax Natural and now they are all different color. The dark grain came up quite a bit darker and the light grain did not come up as golden or as dark as I wanted.

The question is more about how to predict the final look...this isn't the first time I've been tricked by the dark and light grain going their separate ways. It seems to trick me even when I use poly only.

Conspiracy...? Normal...? Or did I not buy the right crystal ball...?


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## Big Steve (Feb 12, 2012)

Nick, sorry to hear, but I am eagerly awaiting the answers to your question.


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## MikeMa (Jul 27, 2006)

Get a few scrap pieces, and try this. Apply a coat of Sanding Sealer (dewaxed shellac). Once the dries, try putting your stain on.


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## rwbaker (Feb 25, 2010)

Not real sure what you can do, as I was always taught that it is easy to darken wood with stain but impossible to lighten a darker wood. I know this is not what anyone wants to hear but trying to get a golden oak color from red oak seems rather difficult. At this juncture it maybe better to use a milk paint (after sanding) followed by a clear polyurethane for durability.
good luck - Baker


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## Skyewalker (Aug 30, 2012)

I've had SOME luck with Minwax PreStain Conditioner. It seems to keep the stain absorption more consistent.
Might give it a try. Not too expensive.


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## OPG3 (Jan 9, 2011)

Nick, I am sorry to learn of this, but just like (Big) Steve; I am also eagerly awaiting answers from other knowledgeable members. I wish Joy's Dad were still alive, because oak was his most often used wood. Roswell Seating Company made church furniture from several choice hardwoods and oak was number one for making church pews.


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## andysden (Aug 9, 2011)

How can you get golden colour from red oak that has red tints in it should have used white oak which has a golden colour when finished there is a definite colour difference 
Andy


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## jbsiii (Nov 7, 2012)

*Yep*

The sanding sealer is what we used when I was young and re-finishing floors. If I remember it was a lacquer based product. Often we would mix the "clean" sanding dust with the sealer and trowel the entire floor then sanding off to fill all grain and gaps particularly good with parquet (sp) floors. 

But Minwax also sells a material called "Wood Conditioner" that works to help minimize the differences in grain. Works pretty good but I would suggest using this and applying the stain with a rag and a piece of sand paper so you can work each piece separately.

But the sanding sealer great idea.

Joe :yes4:


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

So I thought I would include a picture of the color I am trying to get to. In the picture you will see the new riser with Minwax Natural already on it. In the lower section I've put some poly to see how it might end up. As you can see the newel has a orange/amber color. I have gone to many floor and finish places to ask what they might think covered the red oak with that orange-ish finish to no avail. I picked up some DuraSeal (amber) poly but as you can see in the picture it does not come close. I know the original newel that you see in the picture is red oak as some of the grain is exposed where it was cut to face the old riser. I used the same Natural and Poly combo on that section and it came up the same way as my new wood...so I gather the orange/amber came from the coating and not the stain. 

Does anybody recognize the color in the picture...? Any ideas what it might be...? Anybody achieve this orange/amber color with something...?


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## richjh (Jan 14, 2013)

I recently put in some red oak flooring as part of a bathroom remodel and I used Minwax Golden Oak 210B stain and I was very happy with the results. I use this stain for a lot of my red oak projects.


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

Thank you, Mike...did I read correctly (elsewhere) that the dewaxed shellac may come in a more amber color...? Any experiences in final coloring effects using the amber...?


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## tooler2 (Aug 11, 2012)

wet the wood with rubbing alcohol to give a preview.
Rob


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## MikeMa (Jul 27, 2006)

Shellac in general will always have some degree of ambering effect. The Blond and Super Blond that you see sold premixed by Zinnser has been purified to take as much of the color out of it. I believe the sanding sealer has been as well, as the goal of it is not to apply color, but to seal the wood. This sealing will prevent the stain from soaking into the wood too deep and will go a long way with keeping your stain color more consistent, and less blotching.

Another option is Charle's Niels Blotch control. It is a bit more expensive, but is supposed to do a better job at keep color consistent with staining. Here is a link to the product: https://charlesneilwoodworking.3dca...e-Color-Conditioner--Blotch-Control_p_47.html

Another thought for you as well, is not to use stain at all. Try a couple coats of boiled linseed oil. After giving it time to cure, which can take multiple days, I would normally put a few coats of shellac (super blonde if you buy premixed) on it. I am not sure how will that would do with step treads, so you may want to poly instead. Again, get some scrap pieces and experiment.

Also with using oil, be careful how you dispose of the rags, as bunching them up and throwing them in the trashcan is asking for a fire. I normally lay them flat on a concrete floor and let them dry over night before throwing them away.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Nickp said:


> So I thought I would include a picture of the color I am trying to get to. In the picture you will see the new riser with Minwax Natural already on it. In the lower section I've put some poly to see how it might end up. As you can see the newel has a orange/amber color. I have gone to many floor and finish places to ask what they might think covered the red oak with that orange-ish finish to no avail. I picked up some DuraSeal (amber) poly but as you can see in the picture it does not come close. I know the original newel that you see in the picture is red oak as some of the grain is exposed where it was cut to face the old riser. I used the same Natural and Poly combo on that section and it came up the same way as my new wood...so I gather the orange/amber came from the coating and not the stain.
> 
> Does anybody recognize the color in the picture...? Any ideas what it might be...? Anybody achieve this orange/amber color with something...?


Why do you think it _isn't_ White Oak?
Distinguishing Red Oak and White Oak | The Wood Database

As for the stain, I use (Members are probably thinking I work for them... )
*Mohawk* exclusively; no complaint.
Wood Tone Wiping Stain - Mohawk Finishing


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## Willway (Aug 16, 2012)

Nickp said:


> So I picked a bunch of seemingly the same grain, color, etc... Red oak steps and risers for my stairs project. I am looking for that golden look...nothing out of the ordinary. I sanded until nice and smooth to 220 grit and then the stain monster got me.
> 
> I put a coat of Minwax Natural and now they are all different color. The dark grain came up quite a bit darker and the light grain did not come up as golden or as dark as I wanted.
> 
> ...


I refuse to use Minwax stain of any kind! I choose a quality oil stain, then wash off with mineral spirits until I get the tone and grain highlights I want. It's really hard to get a golden look with red oak, but I have had some success. What you may be looking for may be obtainable with nothing but thinned poly, no sealer, then sand and finish with poly. Try it on scrap it may surprise you.


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## NoChatter (Dec 4, 2010)

You can possibly try bleaching the red oak with a strong 2 part bleach.This will make it white. Then once that dries use a golden polyurethane or orange shellac that gets you close in color. The problem in trying to match what you have is that it is aged. One other thought is to add a little bit of dye to a water base clear. Go slow.

Wood Kote Lite-N-Up Wood Bleach


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## TRBaker (Jul 5, 2012)

Nick, one of the problems with Red Oak is the huge variance in colors from one board to the next. If staining with Golden Oak doesn't get it done for you, as Rich suggested, then there are few options left. Sealing the wood first and then applying a tinted finish coat, like Minwax Polyshades is one option, but it is still hard to get consistent colors if your boards are different to start with.

Years ago, I made a conference table for a client that insisted that the table match a chair arm that he brought me after the table was ready for finish. I joked with him about which particular board in the table he wanted to match the chair. He said, "All of them. This is the third table that I've commissioned and none of the others could match the chair. If you can't do it, I'll go somewhere else." Nice guy, huh? Well, I matched it by using a two part wood bleach and washing all the color out of the table. Once all of the boards were white (no pigment left) I started mixing my stain until it matched his sample.
That's the extreme I had to go through to get it to match a golden color throughout.

If someone else has a better way, I'm real anxious to hear it.


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## bigshoe (Dec 8, 2012)

Try min wax golden oak stain


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## andysden (Aug 9, 2011)

I would say that the spindle is white oak and the plank is red oak but i have been known to be wrong Andy


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## CanuckGal (Nov 26, 2008)

Easy to tell white oak from red by your cutting tools. White oak dulls everything in no time flat. I agree with the previous posters, to get that golden oak look use the Minwax conditioner and golden oak stain, 2 coats and sand lightly between coats. There will still be some variation. That's the nature of the beast.


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

Thank you all so much for all the advice, suggestions, links to more info and product experiences. I have taken all your input and from the links you supplied and I think, based on the stage I'm at now, I will go forward with the Golden Oak or maybe Colonial Maple. The person I am doing this for is now not only convinced that she likes the new look better but actually hates the orange-ish look of the old stuff. So out with the old and in with the new. This will certainly allow me to control the final look rather than trying to match to an old faded look. On top of this latest decision she wants to mix iron spindles with wood railings and posts...NIIICE... So I get to play with more tools, cuts, splices, dices, dowels, mortises, tenons...oh my... I'm gonna have so much fun it'll take blueprints to record it...and to think this started at just replacing the current 4-tread stairs... If I spend this much time on all my projects I will have turned into lots of academia and old n' gray...

Seriously...these small projects have given me lots of opportunity to learn from the additional research but more than that I have gained from your experiences...so...THANK YOU SOOOOO MUCH...


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## jbsiii (Nov 7, 2012)

If the original newel was coated with oil based poly it has most likely yellowed over time. If you are trying to match the new risers and treads with the old existing newels & pickets maybe it would be easier to strip the newels & pickets and re coat all at the same time. Or as previously suggested make up several samples of the red oak with stain and poly, and don't hesitate to mix more than 1 stain together. One last idea might be to use a stain +poly mixture on top of a stained material.
just some thoughts. Good luck and please keep me informed with your progress. I am interested in knowing how you solve the problem.
Joe


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

simpsonjb3 said:


> If the original newel was coated with oil based poly it has most likely yellowed over time. If you are trying to match the new risers and treads with the old existing newels & pickets maybe it would be easier to strip the newels & pickets and re coat all at the same time. Or as previously suggested make up several samples of the red oak with stain and poly, and don't hesitate to mix more than 1 stain together. One last idea might be to use a stain +poly mixture on top of a stained material.
> just some thoughts. Good luck and please keep me informed with your progress. I am interested in knowing how you solve the problem.
> Joe


Thank you, Joe...I appreciate your interest in the outcome...so here's the current status...
Having given up on trying to get close to matching to that golden look and opting to get to something more closely matching to the parkway floor top landing we switched gears. I scuffed down the natural I had put on and restained with Early American. Quite by accident it actually ended up coming close to the color she originally wanted...so your mix idea surely works. It is obviously trial and error...
The plan is to do another round of Early American and then poly. This will more closely match to the parkay. New oak railings and newels with iron spindles will really look nice...
I will post pictures when finished...


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## jannereeves (Dec 29, 2012)

Gotta renovate my kitchen using oak kitchen cabinets, Waiting for your pics


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

jannereeves said:


> Gotta renovate my kitchen using oak kitchen cabinets, Waiting for your pics


I'm in Florida this week...will post pics when I get back Sunday...


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

Nickp said:


> I'm in Florida this week...will post pics when I get back Sunday...


Here they be's...lighting might not be perfect...used Minwax Natural as first coat, then sanded, then applied 2 coats of Minwax Early American, then 4 coats of Dura Seal poly with slight sanding in between...the pictures don't really do it justice...I took a bunch and these look closest. let me know if you want more pics...Nick...


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## Smokeem (Mar 24, 2013)

Let me help you guys out a little on this subject and let you in on a secret from the professional side. NEVER USE MINWAX! It will always come out blotchy and I've seen it weep after a few days drying. The steps mentioned above about putting multiple coats on is just a waist of time if you have the right stain to start with. I've had very good luck getting a color close to the newel that was posted earlier using Old Masters Early American penetrating stain. I would always just sand with 120 grit stain the entire peice and wipe off when done. For the last probably 5 years we have used Sherwin Williams Wood Classics and Sherwood stains using the same wipe on wipe off procedure and have had great luck with getting a good color consistency. Sherwin Williams will also custom color match stains for you.

On the wood what oak did you get? I know that you said that you got Red Oak but there is 3 different regions that Red Oak comes from. There is

Northern Red Oak (which is all I will use) which has more of a honey color and can have a very slight pinkish hue when unfinished.

Appalachian Red Oak which is supposed to have more of the pinkish/red color

Southern Red Oak which I understand is more brown but has lots of mineral streaks in it. 

Here is a picture of an entertainment center I built for my inlaws. This is Northern Red Oak that has just been clear coated with Chemcraft laquer.


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

"On the wood what oak did you get? I know that you said that you got Red Oak but there is 3 different regions that Red Oak comes from. There is"

Rick...thank you for taking the time to respond...

I do not know which Red Oak...I bought the wood at Lowes...we first used Natural and then realized it was not a good color (after all steps dried)...I sanded the Natural down but obviously did not get down to wood. The two coats of Early American were used because of the richer color the second coat provided. As you described, the second coat would not have been necessary if the right brand had been used. My experience with stain is lacking so your recommendation is more than appreciated.

I did not get any blotching or weeping but did notice the stain and poly took differently in the more porous dark grain, meaning not as level as the rest of the wood. I suspect that may have been due to the more porous grain cutting the wood surface diagonally. Maybe thinning might have fixed that ?

Thank you for your recommendation...hope to keep learning from feedback such as yours...


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## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

Smokeem said:


> Let me help you guys out a little on this subject and let you in on a secret from the professional side. NEVER USE MINWAX! It will always come out blotchy and I've seen it weep after a few days drying.....


I here that every now and again, yet I have used Minwax for 20 years with good results!:yes4:


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## Smokeem (Mar 24, 2013)

Nick,

No problem on the help just glad that I can use my experience to help. On oak you will always get a darker color in the open grain as it takes the stain better. 

Thanks Rick


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## jannereeves (Dec 29, 2012)

Nickp said:


> Here they be's...lighting might not be perfect...used Minwax Natural as first coat, then sanded, then applied 2 coats of Minwax Early American, then 4 coats of Dura Seal poly with slight sanding in between...the pictures don't really do it justice...I took a bunch and these look closest. let me know if you want more pics...Nick...


Thanks for the pictures :happy: 
The brightness is a bit less but enlarging the image works good. You have done a nice job. Congrats..

I think i would use a much darker paint rather than staining it, i want a darker color for my Oak kitchen cabinets hiding the shades behind.


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