# Help needed in determining the right CNC Soultiion



## Raven13 (Jan 8, 2015)

Hi all,

Brand new to this forum and CNC routing. I have been researching about CNC machines for some time and plan to purchase one, once I figure out the right make and model to go with. A number of factors go in to my decision that your comments and suggestions will be appreciated. I am interested in a desktop sized unit that I can grow with over time. I have a wood working shop that houses many tools so space is a constraint for me. I have looked at serveral types and reconize that some can operate from a USB connection and others require the computer to be directly connected. Dust and storage of a computer will need to be addressed. Some include the software like V-pro carve and Aspire others have their own version of software or no software at all. I find the cost of the software can be easily in the $2-3K frame work unless you find something other than the two I mentioned. I have seen many reviews that buyers are not pleased with the Shark Pro and for the 4K investment would have done something different. I like the Shopbot desktop but I am looking at twice the cost. I know in the end quality, support and ease of use will push me to the right soultion, hoping you folks can give me some more alternatives consider before I make the leap.
thanks much, Jeff


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## bgriggs (Nov 26, 2008)

Jeff, 

Welcome to the forum. There are a lot of choices you need to make before selecting a CNC router table. One of the biggest choices is what your budget is. next is the size table you hope to get and last is the software you plan to run. The software can be as expensive as the machine itself, but you get what you pay for.

I wrote an article about low cost CNC router tables recently. I also feel that there is a need for an article on mid-range choices as well. If you would like to check out the article I will include a link below.

I would be glad to help answer your questions if you need more help.

Inexpensive CNC router tables that won't break the budget. -

Bill


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## 4DThinker (Feb 16, 2014)

I started with a CNC Shark and although it serves me well to this day I've also added a 25"x49" capacity Probotix Fireball Meteor to my shop and am very satisfied with it. It also cost less for what it came with than my a new Shark does yet has twice the capacity. The Comet/Asteroid/Meteor line from Probotix also have the advantage of an open frame design. This means if you leave an open area underneath the table you put it on you can clamp boards vertical or even at any angle under the cutting plane for some otherwise impossible cuts. Any design using a center feed and gantry structure under the cutting bed will be limited to face cuts unless the bit travels past the edge of the cutting bed. 

I can cut anything conventional up to 24" x 48", and also finger joints or dovetail or tenons on the ends of boards standing up to 40" long. 90 degree cuts are easy. Cuts at any other angle are only a little harder. I just finished a 5 sided box with half blind mitered dovetails in a morse code pattern that spell out the customers name. All these dovetails were cut on an angle rig I mount inside the frame of my Meteor.

You'll need software though. The Probotix models use LinuxCNC and come with a PC all set up to control the CNC. Ahead of that though you'll need something to draw up then create tool paths to feed to the CNC. My Shark came with VCarve Pro by Vectric and I highly recommend it. It had post processors for LinuxCNC so anything I create with it can be cut on my Shark OR my Meteor. Plan on whatever you use being an extra expense if it isn't included with the CNC.

4D


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## Raven13 (Jan 8, 2015)

Hi Bill,
Thanks for your comments and link to your article I am very anxious to read it. I agree with you that the budget is a factor especially if the unit, software and learning curve has a limited ROI in terms of enjoyment, success in duplicating projects and ability to make amazing things that I never thought I could. I look forward to continued posts with you.

thanks again,
Jeff


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## Raven13 (Jan 8, 2015)

4D,
Thanks for your note. You sound like an experienced CNC person that has had much success. I am happy to hear that you are getting results with your Shark and that by supplementing with the Probotix Fireball Meteor you were able to maximize the use of the software. Appreciate the points on the open frame and will follow up and look at that unit on my journey. By the way your five side box sounds amazing. Hope to find a local guy that maybe he would allow me to visit once or twice and see an operation up close. Look forward to post with you again.
thanks much,
Jeff


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## Bradleytavares (Feb 25, 2012)

Look at a CarveWright. Software is very affordable and you can buy it one module at a time for your needs.


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## Raven13 (Jan 8, 2015)

Hi,
Be curious to know if you have any experience with a CarveWright system? Based on some other posts I have read I was did some "googling" and found that the patterns were expensive and the projects were limiting and possible better produced through conventional wood working methods. It does appear to have many good aspects in terms of size, cost and easy of use. Thanks, looking forward to hearing back from you.
Jeff


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## 4DThinker (Feb 16, 2014)

Jeff,

I teach furniture design to college students, and am challenged to come up with creative solutions for how to make their project parts on what seems like a daily basis. The CNCs we have added to our university shops offer up some amazing potential, and many things I'd have told students were impossible or would require very experienced hand skills a year ago we now can cut using VCarve Pro or Aspire on the Probotix Meteor I convinced my boss to get after having my own. The tough stuff requires some clever tool pathing and it helps to have a drafting background. We made so many advances in one semester after opening up the frame and adding my angle jig that we are getting a second Meteor for this semester. It has been ordered and should be here before the end of January. Demand started to exceed the capacity (available access time) for CNC work. Should you end up with Vcarve or Aspire then be sure and check out the Vectric.com forums. You can also find great tutorials there, and free projects as well. 

4D


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## curiousgeorge (Nov 6, 2006)

Jeff,
I have had my CarveWright for a couple of years now. I have found that the only limit to what can be done with this machine is your own skill and imagination. I would challenge any CNC within it's price range and a lot of the more expensive ones to match it. The software that comes with it is fantastic in its self and becomes even more so as you add available add-on modules to it. Where as other software costs in the thousands the CarveWright software costs in the 2 to 3 hundred dollar range. You mentioned patterns being expensive. Well, how about thousands of freebies on the CarveWright forum website as well as the ability to make your own with the software provided. Not to mention the people on the forum have no problem with helping out with a pattern when you have a special request. An extra added benefit is that you don't have to worry about having a computer connected to the machine in your shop. Just do all your computer work on your desktop/laptop computer, upload to a flash memory card, plug it in your CarveWright and carve to your hearts content.
I'm sure you are thinking that I have an interest in or work for LHR (they make the CarveWright) but I don't. I'm just a satisfied customer. In all honesty I didn't start out that way. In fact I had a ton of problems when I first got the machine, but customer service got everything fixed and since then I have nothing but praise for it and the company.


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## Raven13 (Jan 8, 2015)

That is very cool I'm sure your students are migrating to the higher technology with the CNC machines. I am actually hoping to engage my son (29) to help me with the software and programming aspects. I would love to find a class in this in my area and get some first exposure what to expect. Based on the software I have been researching the VCarve Pro and or Aspire seem to be the way to go but it has a hefty price tag. Keep me posted on your new machine, I did check them out today on line

thanks again,
Jeff


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## Raven13 (Jan 8, 2015)

Hi George,
Boy did I like your post. That is great information and to hear how pleased you are with that unit, really makes me want to investigate it further as a solution. One of my concerns is putting a computer in unconditioned space. Very hot in the summer and very cold in the winter without running space heaters. Electronics don't like that stuff so being able to use a house based computer and transfer data on a USB is a big plus for me. I appreciate that you also spoke about the available patterns on line and the ability to custom design work. Thanks again for your post and look forward to speaking more.
Jeff


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## 4DThinker (Feb 16, 2014)

My Shark lives in my unheated garage shop along with the PC/Monitor that runs it. When it was my only CNC I would be cutting student projects on it no matter the temperature. The cold never seems to bother the PC or CNC and having booted it up for a test cut today (below freezing here) I was still impressed that it ran with no problems. 

I'm the one who doesn't like being out there in the cold though, so my Meteor occupies an otherwise unused room in my basement. I believe it was a pool room for the previous owner as it is overlit. Love the light though and have now put a bench down there with a router embedded in it as well as a small band saw. Band saw used for cutting CNCed parts apart, and the table router with a flush trim bit for trimming off any tab remnants.


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## curiousgeorge (Nov 6, 2006)

Raven13 said:


> Hi George,
> Boy did I like your post. That is great information and to hear how pleased you are with that unit, really makes me want to investigate it further as a solution. One of my concerns is putting a computer in unconditioned space. Very hot in the summer and very cold in the winter without running space heaters. Electronics don't like that stuff so being able to use a house based computer and transfer data on a USB is a big plus for me. I appreciate that you also spoke about the available patterns on line and the ability to custom design work. Thanks again for your post and look forward to speaking more.
> Jeff


Jeff,
I noticed in a previous post that you were worried about having to learn programming for the CNC. There is no programming involved with the CarveWright. After you design your pattern and upload to the memory card to transfer to the machine it is automatically converted to machine code for you, ergo no programming (by you) involved. The CarveWright designer program does it for you. If you would like to give the program a try you can download a trial version from their website and play around all you want. You just won't be able to save any of the patterns you make.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

4D I went to the fireball site and was quite impressed as I watched the assembly and use right from beginning to end . I would mostly like to build 3D pictures someday so I think the asteroid would suit me . Do you guys often see a need for a bigger table than 24"- 36" ?


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## 4DThinker (Feb 16, 2014)

RainMan1 said:


> Do you guys often see a need for a bigger table than 24"- 36" ?


 The CNCs around me are most often used for cutting/carving parts for furniture pieces. When all we had was a 24x24 Shark it did handle about 90% of what students needed to cut. We have a full shop though, and so can easily cut down a large board or sheet of plywood to fit on the bed. 

The Meteor with 48" of length now handles the last 9% of demand that couldn't be cut on the Shark. Sometimes it is a long part. Sometimes it more efficient yield of parts from a 24"x48" piece than it would have been with a 24" length limit. My University also has a 5' x 10' Multicam CNC for the last 1% of demand that can't possibly be cut on anything smaller. 

I think you'll be fine with an Asteroid 24" x 36" though. VCarve has tiling options to help cut projects that are bigger than the bed if that should ever happen. The footprint will be smaller than that of the Meteor. The price will be a little lower. Everything else is the same so it sounds like a win to me. 

4D


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## bgriggs (Nov 26, 2008)

I mentioned earlier some lower priced option and there are many. In the mid range price point it is hard to beat making your own machine. There are many good plans available, however many don't want to build.

For those that don't want to build I suggest they look at the Camaster Stinger, Shopbot desktop, Laguna HHC IQ, Shopbot Buddy. All of these are good solid machines available between $5K-10K.

Bill


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

4D the meteor may be good option too . At one time I wanted a 4'/8' table , but because of the foot print size and cost it's had me rethinking a smaller one . When I think about it , 50"/24" should fit well enough in what's left in my garage for space . 

Bill , what had gotten me excited about the fireball brand is the cost as it seems very reasonable , and 4D endorsing it so much. It would seem to be a fairly solid unit for the price , well unless they've cut corners with there stepper motors and stepper drives etc ? 
As always the cost of shipping increases the total price a lot , as I'm sure there's no dealers anywhere in the west . I have always dreamed about owning one someday and maybe this spring I'm going to bite the bullet


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## 4DThinker (Feb 16, 2014)

If you can get to Ohio with truck to haul the CNC back in you can pick your CNC up off their dock. Shipping has been $375 each for the three (my one and two for the university shop) I've had delivered to Kansas. Of course it will depend on the price of diesel and the distance you are from their factory. I looked at driving there to get my own but couldn't do it for less when I had to pay for my own gas, miss two days, and spend one night in a motel. 

BTW, Probotix doesn't mind customizing their designs either. The latest meteor we have ordered will have a 37 x 49 cutting area, and two internal cross beams with T-Nuts installed in every inner slot. We have a rotary axis unit we'll permanently mount on one side, and split the remaining area so one half of the top can be removed for vertical/angled cuts. Their CNCs stand on the 4 corners. All that is needed to hold them up is 4 posts that have minimal (but rigid) stretchers between them. The "feet" of the frame have holes through which you can screw them to a notch in the top of the posts. 

4D


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

4D thanks for the great information . Can I pick your brain one more time . Software wise I went to there links and I'm not sure what its capable of , or if the system is compatible with other brands of software.
I really like 3D pictures and was wondering if all CNC router tables do it and which software is compatible with the meteor . Or does the same software work with most computer based cnc router tables?
This is the type of thing I'd like to be able to do , carvings like Scott posted . Not sure if another brand of cnc table would be a better choice though


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## 4DThinker (Feb 16, 2014)

RainMan1 said:


> Software wise I went to there links and I'm not sure what its capable of , or if the system is compatible with other brands of software.
> I really like 3D pictures and was wondering if all CNC router tables do it and which software is compatible with the meteor . Or does the same software work with most computer based cnc router tables?


VCarve and Aspire come with post processors for all the CNCs we have and several dozen more. That project would take Aspire to create and generate G-Code for. Cut3D should be able to generate the G-Code for it assuming something else generated the 3D file. I don't do much 3D work as it is one of the slowest things you can do with any CNC. Nothing about the Meteors/Asteroid/Comet line would keep you from cutting a file like that. My single gripe is the relatively low gantry despite them having 5" of travel. They come with 3/4" MDF mounted on the top of the frame and there is only a little more than 3.25" of clearance under the travelling router/Z-axis. Vectric's products let you set how far the bit has to lift while travelling between plunges as well as a safe Z to return to when done. You should be able to cut anything up to 3" thick as a 3D project or simple profiles and pockets. 

Mount the MDF inside the frame to gain back 3/4". Mount it below the frame to get another 2.375" of potential Z clearance. I've cut notches into 4x4 posts laying on the table with the MDF removed completely. You just have to make sure whatever you are cutting is well clamped/taped/wedged/whatever so it won't move while being cut on.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Thanks again 4D


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## Raven13 (Jan 8, 2015)

Thanks George, I will check out there software too.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Sorry for hijacking your thread Jeff . I figured my questions were relevent to your thread so I posted instead of starting yet another . Thanks


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## Raven13 (Jan 8, 2015)

no problem Rick, enjoyed reading them.


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## Scottart (Jan 8, 2015)

Love my Shark HD. It works hard and has worn out two routers. The only thing that broke was the collar that clamps the Router in place. I have a chainsaw and carving gallery, so this thing runs non stop. It can only carve 24 " at a time, but Aspires Tiling tools make that work pretty easy. I just finished a 78" circular piece. I like it. you need to decide what you want to do with it. These table tops are not high speed production pieces. What are you trying to Make? Scottart.


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## Scottart (Jan 8, 2015)

I am a very happy Shark HD owner running a carving shop and wood gallery.. That Shark has run almost non stop for 2 years. I use V Pro and Aspire to design. Having said that, I am looking for a CNC with a bigger foot print. I have done Very large pieces on the Shark but doing so requires mastering a tool called "tiling". It works well, is simple to understand and set up, but affords lots of chances for set up misses and to many repeat tool set ups. Studying the Shopbot offerings now. I am also trying to understand the advantages of machines with higher travel speeds. the Shark is limited to 200 in / min. But it seems at that speed i can easily burn up the available bits. So need to get a grasp on that stuff. The Shark is not a speed production machine.. but a wonderful tool that I plan to keep


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## Raven13 (Jan 8, 2015)

Scott,
Thanks for sharing your experience with the "shark" unit. There are some real advantageous and challenges I have read about, so its good to hear from you that you are having success. I have been eyeing this technology for about 2 years but have decided to really do a deep dive analysis for the right machine, software for the space I have to work with. I am not sure where I found an article from WoodShop News, it was posted on Feb. 2013 that is titled " CNC hits a whole new Level". Great article that provides a number of different manufactures and links to look at. I will try to post the link. CNC hits a whole new level | Woodshop News To your question of what do I plan to do with the equipment. It will range from custom signage, crafts and if I can find a nitch item to keep me in pin money. By the time I really start things moving along I should be retired and this will keep me focused and reenergized to broadening my experiences with wood working.


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## Raven13 (Jan 8, 2015)

*Software Experience*

I downloaded a demo software called DelCam Express. Based on the tutorials it looks like it could do almost anything that Pro V Carve or Aspire could do for a fraction of the cost. Was wondering if anyone had seen or is using this program. Having some problems with trying to duplicate the designs and cutting paths and don't know if its because it is a demo software or me.


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## bgriggs (Nov 26, 2008)

Raven13 said:


> I downloaded a demo software called DelCam Express. Based on the tutorials it looks like it could do almost anything that Pro V Carve or Aspire could do for a fraction of the cost. Was wondering if anyone had seen or is using this program. Having some problems with trying to duplicate the designs and cutting paths and don't know if its because it is a demo software or me.


Never heard of it. the only product with a similar name I can find is Delcam Xpress for Solidworks. This is a free plugin for Solidworks. Solidworks cost $3995 to start and goes up in price based on the features chosen.

Bill


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## 4DThinker (Feb 16, 2014)

Probotix has now made a 37" x 50" version of the Meteor CNC their new "Nebula" at $4400. Nebula CNC Router - Nebula CNC Router

The 25 x 50 inch area the Meteors can cut handled 99% of all the furniture parts my students needed cutting. The extra foot of width means formwork for plywood laminations and such is possible. We'll be permanently installing our 4th Axis on one side of ours.


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## BikerBob (Jan 26, 2015)

*Romaxx WD-1*



Raven13 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Brand new to this forum and CNC routing. I have been researching about CNC machines for some time and plan to purchase one, once I figure out the right make and model to go with. A number of factors go in to my decision that your comments and suggestions will be appreciated. I am interested in a desktop sized unit that I can grow with over time. I have a wood working shop that houses many tools so space is a constraint for me. I have looked at serveral types and reconize that some can operate from a USB connection and others require the computer to be directly connected. Dust and storage of a computer will need to be addressed. Some include the software like V-pro carve and Aspire others have their own version of software or no software at all. I find the cost of the software can be easily in the $2-3K frame work unless you find something other than the two I mentioned. I have seen many reviews that buyers are not pleased with the Shark Pro and for the 4K investment would have done something different. I like the Shopbot desktop but I am looking at twice the cost. I know in the end quality, support and ease of use will push me to the right soultion, hoping you folks can give me some more alternatives consider before I make the leap.
> thanks much, Jeff


You may want to check out the Romaxx router if you haven't already.


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