# pyRouterJig: Software to make Incra Templates



## furboo (Oct 12, 2015)

I've just released pyRouterJig version 0.7.5. To download, go to

pyRouterJig Home Page

Skimming the documentation will give you a brief overview of the capabilities:

pyRouterJig Documentation

There's been a lot of changes since the last version that I announced (0.5.0). The major changes are

* Added Double and Double-Double joints. Each can be their own thickness and default to 1/8". See examples below.
* Added labels and cuts on each board, mirroring what's on the template. This is similar to how the Incra templates are presented.
* "Save" and "Screenshot" PNG files can be opened later in pyRouterJig for further editing. The file contains the joint information, embedded in the file.
* The first time pyRouterJig is run, the configuration file .pyrouterjig is created in the user's home directory. It contains options that can be changed by the user. For example, if you set "metric = True" in the file, pyRouterJig starts in metric mode. See the file for all of the options available, including "metric".
* Added "Caul Template" in View menu. This creates an Incra template that can be used to make clamping cauls for the particular joint.
* Added full-screen mode toggle in View menu.
* Wood images are now read from the folder "wood_images" in the user's home directory, if it exists (this location may be changed in the configuration file). Wood images are no longer within the pyrouterjig executable; this greatly decreases the executable size. See the documentation for a zip file that contains wood images that you can download.
* Wood images are now selected in the "combo-boxes" in the lower-left of the screen. This is also how Double and Double-Double joints are activated. The images also appear much better now (less pixelation).
* Numerous other enhancements and bug fixes.

Special thanks to Phil ("PhilBa") for lots of suggestions and LOTS of bug finding :smile:


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## PhilBa (Sep 25, 2014)

Thanks for creating this fantastic app, Rob. 

My wife is heading to Mexico for a week and it's warmed up a bit here so I will have lots of shop time and will post some examples soon. But, here is the template that started us down the road to editing which is an incredible feature of pyRouterJig. You can see one finger is 4 increments wider (1/8") to allow for the kerf width when cutting the top off of the box on the table saw. When it's done, all the fingers will be the same size. Lots more interesting templates to come - imagination is the only real limiter here.


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## mbar57 (Apr 20, 2015)

Hey Rob, thank you!! This looks awesome, and I'd love to try it. When I click on the windows download button on the homepage it takes me a page with a 404 and says this is not the page you are looking for? There is a box at the top for a username and password. Do I need to register or am I doing something wrong? Sorry never mind all I needed to do was follow directions. When I double clicked it started running. Thanks again!!!


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## furboo (Oct 12, 2015)

Sorry Mike, I had the links wrong and fixed it a few minutes ago after Phil pointed it out.


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## mbar57 (Apr 20, 2015)

Please Rob, No apologies!!! All I had to do was follow directions. I got it by the way, AWESOME!!! Thank you!!


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## furboo (Oct 12, 2015)

Phil pointed out the lack of an alignment line, such as a centerline. I had a centerline in an earlier version...I'll get that back in, soon.


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## furboo (Oct 12, 2015)

Version 0.7.6 put the centerlines back in, either by noting which cut is centered, or by actually drawing a centerline on each template. In addition, an alignment line was added to each template, using an easy method that Phil came up with. You can either align the templates using the centerline (described in the INCRA manual), or using the ALIGN line. The ALIGN line is located 1/2 bit_width outside the board right edge, so align the bit flush with the fence, then move the template to be aligned with ALIGN. See the figure below, which shows the new notation.

As usual, go the link below to download the new version:

pyRouterJig Home Page


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## furboo (Oct 12, 2015)

Sorry, I must have uploaded 0.7.6 incorrectly to the website...try again, and I made another tweak, to create 0.7.7

pyRouterJig Home Page


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## PhilBa (Sep 25, 2014)

Well, I've been busy in the shop. Unfortunately I spent 2 days installing a new heater so I didn't freeze my ax off. Well it only took a day to install it (including drilling holes in concrete, my least favorite activity) but it took another day getting it to work - the first one failed immediately. Another day was wasted, er, happily spent, on cleaning and reorganizing the shop (and I am far from done). But today I got to do fun stuff - working on a project for a tutorial. 

This is just a quick teaser because I'm not done yet.

I needed a box to hold a dremel and various accessories so I'll use that to show how to use pyRouterJig to make a box with a custom template on an Incra LS. Here's the template file that I created and a picture of the results (not yet glued up). I'm happy to say it worked really well. When I finish it, the tutorial will take you through all the steps.


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## furboo (Oct 12, 2015)

Very nice, Phil!


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## jd99 (Jun 17, 2009)

I gotta say Thank You.

I was making some drawers over the weekend, and was thinking I need to write a program to make custom templates. 

You saved me a lot of work.
Thanks


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## furboo (Oct 12, 2015)

That's great to hear, Danny! Feel free to post some pictures


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## furboo (Oct 12, 2015)

*Version 0.8.4*

I haven't announced a new version here for a while; version 0.8.4 is now available at

pyRouterJig Home Page

Major changes since 0.7.7:



Windows executable is now 32-bit. If you had tried an older version and got an error such as "pyRouterJig.exe is not a valid Win32 application", then try this version instead. It's also been tested and works fine on 64-bit systems.

Removed Units menu. English vs. metric units are now selected the first time that you run pyRouterJig. That selection is saved in the config file. If you ever want to switch units, either change the metric parameter in the config file, or simply remove the file, and restart pyRouterJig.

Added print_scale_factor to config file. This parameter allows for scaling of the image on printing to account for printer inaccuracies.
Several other customization parameters were also added to the config file.

Added experimental "Export 3DS" file capability, under the File menu. A 3DS file may be imported into SketchUp. At this stage, only simple box joints are supported (no double and double-double joints).

Several bugs fixes (particularly in metric mode) and other enhancements.

Finally, check out PhilBa's very nice tutorials that use pyRouterJig:

custom box joints
creating box joint cauls


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## PhilBa (Sep 25, 2014)

The way metric/imperial setup is done makes a lot of sense. It's a lot friendlier to those few people in the world who use metric.>


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## furboo (Oct 12, 2015)

I promise to make the English-to-imperial translation for the next release, even if their "inch" is apparently the same 

My excuse for the use of "English" comes from my dated aero education, where we used "English engineering units." I hope that's changed since the NASA Mars orbiter mishap. And fortunately, there's no need for pound-mass or slugs in pyRouterJig. Yet.


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## PhilBa (Sep 25, 2014)

English or Imperial, it's really the same. Probably should be called American since USA is the only large country that uses it. I doubt anyone would take offence.


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## furboo (Oct 12, 2015)

I just launched a new website for pyRouterJig, at

pyRouterJig · A woodworking layout tool for creating box and dovetail joints

Version 0.8.9 can be downloaded from there; see download links on the right sidebar. There's been a few important features added since the last announcement here:



 Rearranged menus to match standard locations on Windows and Mac.
 Added Preferences menu item (under menu Tools : Preferences for Windows; menu pyRouterJig : Preferences for Mac). A window will open that allows you to set and save various user preferences.
 Option to add cut location from right edge to each router pass label. This is useful to verify the pass location with the Incra ruler. Select menu View : Router Passes : Locations.
 Can now add watermark text to template, so they're easier to keep track of after printing. Also added creation date and time to template.
 Increased the template font size.
 No longer require ".png" extension on file saves. It's automatically added, if not present.
 Website documentation totally revamped. For example, you can now zoom on each sample image.

Thanks to PhilBa for lots of these ideas and pointing out bugs. Let me know if you find bugs or have suggestions.


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## jd99 (Jun 17, 2009)

*didn't work*

I tried this program and I succeeded in making some more high quality kindling.

I had a 4 1/4" wide stock, using a dovetail cutter that's 3/8" at 9 degrees and the dovetail depth is 1/4" with those parameters the distance between the dovetails center to center is 11/16 inch.

your program sets the center lines at what looks like .653 or .654 11/16 is .687.

at .653 center line the cutter depth would have to be less than 1/4 inch.

I'm not sure how your doing the calculations for dovetails, but the trig is off someplace.

the program would probably work fine for box joints, because of the straight sides, but for dovetails, it needs a little work.

I stick to doing the trig the manual way for custom dovetails on my stuff.

thanks
Danny

PS I know my printer is working correctly I print from my cad program and it prints 1 inch cad dimension as 1 inch.


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## furboo (Oct 12, 2015)

Thanks for the feedback, Danny. You're right, it's spacing them at 21/32 = 0.656, rather than 22/32 = 11/16. Sorry about that. I'll take a look. I suspect it's a rounding error.


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## jd99 (Jun 17, 2009)

furboo said:


> Thanks for the feedback, Danny. You're right, it's spacing them at 21/32 = 0.656, rather than 22/32 = 11/16. Sorry about that. I'll take a look. I suspect it's a rounding error.


I thought about this a little bit. the program is fine for box joints as it is. I would change the input for dovetails.

Have the user enter the stock width, the bit size (3/8, etc.) and the angle (9, 14, 7 etc) but not the depth of cut. build a calculation sub routine that will calculate the even spacing, and also calculate the depth of cut using the bit parameters. then give the information to the user.

in my scenario, the depth of cut would have to have been a lot less than 1/4".


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## furboo (Oct 12, 2015)

jd99 said:


> I thought about this a little bit. the program is fine for box joints as it is. I would change the input for dovetails.
> 
> Have the user enter the stock width, the bit size (3/8, etc.) and the angle (9, 14, 7 etc) but not the depth of cut. build a calculation sub routine that will calculate the even spacing, and also calculate the depth of cut using the bit parameters. then give the information to the user.
> 
> in my scenario, the depth of cut would have to have been a lot less than 1/4".


Unless you're doing a half-blind, I would think you'd want the depth of cut to match the adjacent board thickness. But I'll definitely think about this...thanks for idea.

At the least, I need to check the "fit" of the joint. For the case you have, there's no way it would have fit together, and I should have caught that issue.


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## jd99 (Jun 17, 2009)

furboo said:


> Unless you're doing a half-blind, I would think you'd want the depth of cut to match the adjacent board thickness. But I'll definitely think about this...thanks for idea.
> 
> At the least, I need to check the "fit" of the joint. For the case you have, there's no way it would have fit together, and I should have caught that issue.


I always do a half blind when making drawers. I make the depth of the cut 1/2 the material thickness. in this case it was 1/4".


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## furboo (Oct 12, 2015)

Danny, I need to think about this more. It should work for standard dovetails, too, although what you're proposing might be an option. I really appreciate your insights.

I do have a hunch where the error is, it's just this weekend I've dedicated to the IRS gods and Turbotax :frown: ... with a break here and there to read the forum :wink:


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## jd99 (Jun 17, 2009)

furboo said:


> Danny, I need to think about this more. It should work for standard dovetails, too, although what you're proposing might be an option. I really appreciate your insights.
> 
> I do have a hunch where the error is, it's just this weekend I've dedicated to the IRS gods and Turbotax :frown: ... with a break here and there to read the forum :wink:


No hurry, I have another way to do it. If I don't feel like doing the trig calculations. I draw it up on my cad, that gets me really close most of the time.

Good luck with IRS, they stuck it to me again....


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## furboo (Oct 12, 2015)

I finally had a chance to look at this. Danny, did you try to cut the joint with the 11/16" spacing with a 1/4" depth (what Incra suggests)? I would think you'd end up with kindling, too. Here's the long-winded explaination:

It's been a while since I've looked at dovetails. A while back, I had checked them against the "Master Reference Guide", and I knew pyRouterJig matched at least a few of the 7 deg. and 14 deg. cases. I own those bits, but not the 9 deg., which I admit I never had checked.

So I tried all 10 of the equally-spaced dovetails in the Guide. pyRouterJig matches all of them exactly, *except* Danny's case: 9 deg., 3/8" width, 1/4" depth case (the "bad case"). Of the 10 cases, it's interesting what is unique about the "bad case". The exact dovetail spacing is given by

exact_spacing = 2 width - 2 depth tan(angle)

I get 0.671" for the bad case. Because the Incra can only position in 1/32" increments, this number must be rounded to the nearest 1/32". I get 21/32", while the Guide somehow gets 11/16". Note that

0.671 - 21/32 = 0.015" (pyRouterJig)
0.671 - 11/16 = -0.017" (Guide)

That is, roughly 1/64" in either direction. Note that in either case, this difference is a lot larger than any of the other 9 cases, which typically need to adjust the spacing less than 0.004". I considered that the Guide "rounded up", so maybe it does that for all cases. But no, this case and the 7.5 deg. case are the only two that the Guide rounds up.

I'm not arguing that pyRouterJig is correct. It shouldn't even let you specify this depth for this bit, given how the Incra works. As Danny found out, you get kindling. But I would be surprised if the Guide's 11/16" spacing is any better; if anything, I'd bet it's even worse. But maybe I'm missing something. Maybe my formula is wrong above, and I'm just getting lucky for the other 9 cases. If so, please enlighten me.

For through dovetails, I need to figure out how to restrict the depths so that the error in shifting to the closest 1/32" is small enough. Danny, I like your idea for half-blinds. I'll get that in at some point, too.


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## PhilBa (Sep 25, 2014)

Rob, This is a very interesting read. I need to fuss with dovetails and PRJ as I have mostly focused on box joints. I'm about to do some drawers for a small project so it's good timing.

The Incra through dovetail approach seems overly complex - have looked at getting something like the Leigh Jig but then sticker shock sets in (more than the IncraLS!!). And for those that say "cut 'em by hand", yeah wish I had the patience for that.


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## jd99 (Jun 17, 2009)

PhilBa said:


> Rob, This is a very interesting read. I need to fuss with dovetails and PRJ as I have mostly focused on box joints. I'm about to do some drawers for a small project so it's good timing.
> 
> The Incra through dovetail approach seems overly complex - have looked at getting something like the Leigh Jig but then sticker shock sets in (more than the IncraLS!!). And for those that say "cut 'em by hand", yeah wish I had the patience for that.


Ive done the through dovetail on incra, it's not that bad, but I do half blind mainly because I don't have to do the extra hand trim operation that is required on the through dovetail steps.


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## furboo (Oct 12, 2015)

I'm curious what a reasonable tolerance should be. 0.005"?


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## furboo (Oct 12, 2015)

I figured out that the pyRouterJig and Guide spacing for the "bad case" are equally bad. The Guide joint can be obtained in pyRouterJig by moving the Spacing slider to 1/32". The first attached image is the default (Spacing slider at 0), while the second image shows the Guide results (Spacing slider at 1/32"). Both of these joints will have the same fit. Changing "Spacing" does not change the fit.

For this bit, this is just a bad depth of cut for the Incra.


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## jd99 (Jun 17, 2009)

furboo said:


> I figured out that the pyRouterJig and Guide spacing for the "bad case" are equally bad. The Guide joint can be obtained in pyRouterJig by moving the Spacing slider to 1/32". The first attached image is the default (Spacing slider at 0), while the second image shows the Guide results (Spacing slider at 1/32"). Both of these joints will have the same fit. Changing "Spacing" does not change the fit.
> 
> For this bit, this is just a bad depth of cut for the Incra.


Its not really a bad depth, the 1/4 inch depth, is actually a suggested "Aprox. Depth of cut" for most dovetails using a 3/8" 9 degree cutter.

I just used the 1/4" depth, 3/8" 9 degree dovetail, on multiple stock widths, and I had no problem as long as the spacing was right.

I always try to set my depth of cut for 1/2 of my stock thickness. I know from past experience 1/4" depth, 3/8" x 9 degree the spacing is 11/16, and that works.

one thing you can provide is the spacing your program uses, in other words if you program creates a template with a spacing of .... say 9/16" then provide an output field for that information. That way the user knows that he or she need to use the 9/16" spacing to set the true depth of cut for the dovetail bit being used.

I always use 2 pieces of scrap material to set up my bit, I make two cuts first about 1/2 the width of the cutter, then another one at what ever the spacing is flip the pieces around and check the fit. Then I adjust the height (depth of cut) to either tighten or loosen the dovetail for correct fit. 

Knowing the spacing your program generates would help in that setup process.


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## jd99 (Jun 17, 2009)

*Thought of something else*

Another thing that would be helpful is because this program is for the Incra Positioner, and the Incra isn't a true variable positioner (e.g. has DRO), its limited to the lead screw.

I would force your program to round up or down the spacing that matches the smallest graduation on the Incra with out moving the thumb wheel. 

My guess is 1/64" or maybe its 1/32" I would have to check it. That way you can go from line to line with out having to do a fine adjust.


Just a suggestion.


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## jd99 (Jun 17, 2009)

*Found the chart*

I knew I got a chart from Incra along time ago and I found it. 

Maybe this will help.

Router Bit - Spacing - Depth (aprox.)
1/4"-7.5 Deg. - 7/16" - 1/4"
5/16"-9 Deg. - 9/16" - 3/16"
3/8"-9 Deg. - 11/16" - 1/4"
1/2"-14 Deg. - 7/8" - 1/4"
1/2"-14Deg - 13/16" - 3/8"
1/2"-10 Deg. - 13/16" - 1/2" 
5/8"-7 Deg. - 1-1/16" - 3/4"
5/8"-7 Deg. - 1-1/8" - 1/2"
3/4'-7 Deg. - 1-5/16" - 3/4"
3/4"-7 Deg. - 1-3/8" - 1/2"


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## PhilBa (Sep 25, 2014)

jd99 said:


> Another thing that would be helpful is because this program is for the Incra Positioner, and the Incra isn't a true variable positioner (e.g. has DRO), its limited to the lead screw.
> 
> I would force your program to round up or down the spacing that matches the smallest graduation on the Incra with out moving the thumb wheel.
> 
> ...


PyRouterJig uses the 1/32" increments of the LS positioner. All cuts align on a 1/32" boundary (or 1 mm if using metric). The Incra patent is about precisely locking into 1/32"/1mm increments by clamping onto a 32TPI lead screw.

I've built a prototype of a "DRO-like" scale that shows the exact position of the LS fence. Rob and I are talking about how to embed the template data into the device. Beyond that, I'm thinking about making a non-incremental positioner to use with it. sort of a 1 deg of freedom manual CNC.


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## jd99 (Jun 17, 2009)

PhilBa said:


> PyRouterJig uses the 1/32" increments of the LS positioner. All cuts align on a 1/32" boundary (or 1 mm if using metric). The Incra patent is about precisely locking into 1/32"/1mm increments by clamping onto a 32TPI lead screw.
> 
> I've built a prototype of a "DRO-like" scale that shows the exact position of the LS fence. Rob and I are talking about how to embed the template data into the device. Beyond that, I'm thinking about making a non-incremental positioner to use with it. sort of a 1 deg of freedom manual CNC.


 I looked at the DRO and I could have installed one very easily
I have one on my lift, but I didn't see a need for one on the positioner. I've cut a lot of half blind dovetails on my table, and I always have used the information I have from incra to decide what bit and spacing I use. and it works every time.


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## furboo (Oct 12, 2015)

jd99 said:


> I knew I got a chart from Incra along time ago and I found it.
> 
> Maybe this will help.
> 
> ...


Hey Danny, right, those are the 10 cases I was referring to. pyRouterJig matches all of those, except the 3/8"-9 deg. one.

I wrote a little program while on travel early this week (College Station TX...howdy Aggies). For each of the bits, it computes the depths and spacing. Attached are the results in a pdf file. Your cases above are included. But I also include additional depths, which might be useful to folks. In pyRouterJig, I'm thinking of restricting the depths to those listed, for each bit. For each bit, the data is sorted in increasing depth. The depth only goes down to the width of the bit.

More explanation of the data: The depth is approximate when there is an "error". As I mentioned in a previous post, none of the errors are more than 0.004". An error of None means that I've computed the depth from the spacing, as you suggested for half-blinds. With a Wixey, you should be able to set this depth pretty closely. You could use the "Nones" not only for half-blinds, but alternatively, plane your boards to this depth for through dovetails.

Disclaimer: I haven't tried this in the shop, yet.


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## furboo (Oct 12, 2015)

Attached is another version, that includes depths 20% past the bit width. That's stressful on the bit, but I wanted to include some cases Danny had listed.

I forgot to mention that I also don't match the 10 deg. bit case that Incra has. Their spacing of 13/16" has a 0.011" error at a 1/2" depth. I wouldn't use that bit for that depth.


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## furboo (Oct 12, 2015)

jd99 said:


> Another thing that would be helpful is because this program is for the Incra Positioner, and the Incra isn't a true variable positioner (e.g. has DRO), its limited to the lead screw.
> 
> I would force your program to round up or down the spacing that matches the smallest graduation on the Incra with out moving the thumb wheel.
> 
> My guess is 1/64" or maybe its 1/32" I would have to check it. That way you can go from line to line with out having to do a fine adjust.


Exactly, Danny. That's what I'll use the data I posted above to do. More precisely, pyRouterJig will re-compute the data for the given bit and allow only those depths. The spacing will the the minimum spacing; you will still be able to increase it with the "Spacing" slider.


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## furboo (Oct 12, 2015)

PhilBa said:


> I'm thinking about making a non-incremental positioner to use with it. sort of a 1 deg of freedom manual CNC.


Great idea!


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## furboo (Oct 12, 2015)

Well, I have to eat some crow. I dug into the code and found that for Danny's case, 21/32" spacing was a bug that created a really bad layout. It wasn't just a bad fit, with an overlap of only 1/64", it was off much more. See the first image below, labeled "Old Version, Depth 1/4".

I just released 0.9.0, and its result is shown in the second image, "New Version, Depth 1/4". Note that there still is about 1/64" of an overlap. The last image shows results at a depth of 3/16", which is a depth to the nearest 1/32" that, for this particular bit, minimizes the overlap (about 0.003").

The new version can be downloaded at:

pyRouterJig · A woodworking layout tool for creating box and dovetail joints

Aside from the bug fixes, I added features to allow generating the attached images:

* Added menu item View:Fit, which shows the joint assembled. "Show Fit" is the corresponding Preference.
* Added "Solid Fill" option for board fill. Corresponding default colors were added (not yet changeable in Preferences) that are transparent, allowing easy view of any overlap under View:Fit. This is useful for checking the fit of dovetails, given the increment restrictions of the Incra (or bugs in pyRouterJig :frown.
* Changed keyboard shortcuts that use the Shift-key modifier, under the Editor, to the key combination Ctrl+Alt.
* Added a zoom and pan capability. Mouse wheel zooms in and out, left click and drag pans, right click resets the view. Or the keyboard may be used: Shift + Z zooms in, Shift + X zooms out, Shift + arrows keys pans, ESC key resets the view.

These new features are not yet described in the documentation.

And as always, with any setup, you should always make a test joint with scrap wood :grin:


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## PhilBa (Sep 25, 2014)

OK, I am just going to have to make a custom DT box. As your alpha tester, I feel like I fell down on the job there!


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## jd99 (Jun 17, 2009)

Thanks Rob.

I'm done with the dovetails, on my current project, and the router table is set up to do my raised panel doors. 

As soon as I get a current customer job out of the shop, and get my doors and drawer fronts done. I will play around with it and see how it goes.


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## furboo (Oct 12, 2015)

If you're a geek like me, an interesting fact fell out of this, whether you use the software or not. The formula I posted for the dovetail spacing

exact_spacing = 2 width - 2 depth tan(angle)

is correct. But one error I had was rounding this as

rounded_spacing = ROUND(2 width - 2 depth tan(angle))

where ROUND() rounds the result to the nearest 1/32". Instead, the Guide's results are actually consistent with

rounded_spacing = 2 ROUND(width - depth tan(angle))

and this is now what the new version is using, effectively, along with other fixes. It was really lucky (except for Danny) that this difference only showed up in 1 case out of 10. Example:

ROUND(2 * 0.3355) = 21/32
2 * ROUND(0.3355) = 22/32

Bummer.


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## furboo (Oct 12, 2015)

PhilBa said:


> OK, I am just going to have to make a custom DT box.


Uh oh, I'm guessing more bugs will be found :smile:


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## jd99 (Jun 17, 2009)

Hi Rob.

I finished my doors and drawer fronts, today so I decided I play around with the program. 

I got the same results, where 1/4" depth of cut on 3/8" 9 degree cutter wont work unless its moved to 3/16" plus or minus.

But in real life it does work, I was shooting sealer on my drawers this afternoon, and I took a picture with a tape showing the 1/4" depth of cut the bit is 3/8" 9 degree.

Material is 1/2" thick before final sanding.


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## furboo (Oct 12, 2015)

Danny, nice pic! Just to make sure: When you select "About" under the Help menu, what version does it say?


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## jd99 (Jun 17, 2009)

furboo said:


> Danny, nice pic! Just to make sure: When you select "About" under the Help menu, what version does it say?


 I downloaded the new one today 0.9.0


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## furboo (Oct 12, 2015)

OK, just thought I'd check. And for the one that worked, you used 11/16" spacing?


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## jd99 (Jun 17, 2009)

furboo said:


> OK, just thought I'd check. And for the one that worked, you used 11/16" spacing?


Yes 11/16" on that set of drawers. I made 4 drawers for this vanity, two of them are 4-1/4" and one each 6-1/4" and 7-1/4" height.

I used the same setting on all of them (3/8" 9 degree dovetail bit, and 1/4" depth, and 11/16" spacing) I just adjust my center setting for each width.

I switched to this config because it works better with 1/2" thick material. I used to use a 1/2" 14 degree bit, but the depth of cut ended up being around or more than 3/8" instead of the 1/4" I wanted.

With this 1/4" depth it makes it easy to cut my material. If the drawer is a 16" drawer the ends are cut to the width, and the sides are cut 1/2" shorter than the over all length of drawer. 15-1/2" in this example.

Thanks
Danny.


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## furboo (Oct 12, 2015)

jd99 said:


> Yes 11/16" on that set of drawers. I made 4 drawers for this vanity, two of them are 4-1/4" and one each 6-1/4" and 7-1/4" height.


Danny, when I input 4-1/4" board width, 3/8" bit width, and 1/4" bit depth, I get the results attached below. Under the menus, I've turned on View:Router Passes:Locations and turned off View:Router Passes:Identifiers. The router pass locations for each edge (A or B) are separated by 11/16". For example 6A - 5A = 3-1/2 - 2-13/16 = 11/16". Also, the B-cuts are centered within the A-cuts. This sure sounds like what you're describing that works.

I also printed the template and confirmed the measurements. The template also lined up perfectly with the DOVG template from the Incra Guide (page 27).

You can download the image below and open it with File:Open. Does it match what you had? If it does, the only other thing I can think of is which alignment procedure are you using?

Thanks for checking on all of this!


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## jd99 (Jun 17, 2009)

furboo said:


> Danny, when I input 4-1/4" board width, 3/8" bit width, and 1/4" bit depth, I get the results attached below. Under the menus, I've turned on View:Router Passes:Locations and turned off View:Router Passes:Identifiers. The router pass locations for each edge (A or B) are separated by 11/16". For example 6A - 5A = 3-1/2 - 2-13/16 = 11/16". Also, the B-cuts are centered within the A-cuts. This sure sounds like what you're describing that works.
> 
> I also printed the template and confirmed the measurements. The template also lined up perfectly with the DOVG template from the Incra Guide (page 27).
> 
> ...


Your right if you display the numbers its calculated right, you show the fit and its an interference fit until you change the depth to 3/16.

Interesting.

looks like its fixed if you ignore the show fit diagram. the original was a spacing error though it was 650something if I remember right.


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## furboo (Oct 12, 2015)

jd99 said:


> Your right if you display the numbers its calculated right, you show the fit and its an interference fit until you change the depth to 3/16.


Yeah, I still wouldn't use this depth and spacing for that reason. But you got it to work, somehow.

I need to figure out a similar interference fit for the bits I own and give it a try. I'd like to figure out an acceptable tolerance. The interference is 0.017" for 1/4" depth and 0.003" at 3/16". So I'd hope that the tolerance is somewhere between.


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## jd99 (Jun 17, 2009)

furboo said:


> Yeah, I still wouldn't use this depth and spacing for that reason. But you got it to work, somehow.
> 
> I need to figure out a similar interference fit for the bits I own and give it a try. I'd like to figure out an acceptable tolerance. The interference is 0.017" for 1/4" depth and 0.003" at 3/16". So I'd hope that the tolerance is somewhere between.


not sure if this will help in your program, but I use a DRO on my lift, and when I set up dovetails, the depth of cut is a start point, it might start at 1/4" (.250) but after I do my test cuts I may lower or raise the bit so a 1/4" depth ends up being .267 or something like that, and I document that for the next time I use that bit.

I noticed when I put in a different dimension in your program like .200 it gets rounded to 3/16 (.1875). having the ability to put in any dimension might help or it might not. Or you code wont work that way.

I gave up coding years ago, when I was doing it C was new, I started in assembly, and fortran, cobal, stuff like that and C ( no + or ++ ).

left coding and went into network WAN/LAN stuff. (25 years)

Anyhow.....

The dovetails I showed you the actual depth on that bit is .258.


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## furboo (Oct 12, 2015)

jd99 said:


> I noticed when I put in a different dimension in your program like .200 it gets rounded to 3/16 (.1875). having the ability to put in any dimension might help or it might not. Or you code wont work that way.


Yes, by default and for use with the Incra, all dimensions are rounded to the nearest 1/32" (or 1mm in metric mode). But there's probably no good reason to constrain the depth this way, except consistency with the other dimensions. I'm still thinking about how to make this change. Just allowing any dimension is one approach and probably the simplest. But I'd like to give some feedback on the amount of interference.


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## PhilBa (Sep 25, 2014)

furboo said:


> Yes, by default and for use with the Incra, all dimensions are rounded to the nearest 1/32" (or 1mm in metric mode). But there's probably no good reason to constrain the depth this way, except consistency with the other dimensions. I'm still thinking about how to make this change. Just allowing any dimension is one approach and probably the simplest. But I'd like to give some feedback on the amount of interference.


I was thinking the same thing as I read this - don't constrain depth to the increment size. For box joints, I pretty much ignore depth as the stock thickness is all that matters there but with DTs, that's whole different story.

I'm not sure that removing the increment restriction on all dimensions is right though. It's a good thing that LS locks you into 1/32" or 1 mm increments - there is little chance of error and it's highly repeatable. A DRO based system would help though.


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## jd99 (Jun 17, 2009)

The LS system doesn't really lock you in to 1/32" increments. You can get any spacing you want by turning the adjustment wheel, so in theory your get any dimension to .001" 

I think that Incra does their spacing in 1/32" increments is so you can go to each line or next cut with out having to make any adjustment on the wheel.

I agree with the program rounding to the next 32nd for the axis controlled by the incra, but the lift isn't locked down to any spacing, so the depth of cut should be variable.

Got to get back to work, sanding and painting.

Thanks
Danny


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## PhilBa (Sep 25, 2014)

Yes, that's the point of the increments - avoiding microadjustment. Repeatability is out the window when you turn the microadjustment screw.


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## furboo (Oct 12, 2015)

PhilBa said:


> Yes, that's the point of the increments - avoiding microadjustment. Repeatability is out the window when you turn the microadjustment screw.


Phil, once you do alignment, if you keep track of the micro's position, couldn't you move to the nearest 1/32" and then use the micro for the remainder? Example steps:

1) Say next pass is at 1.223", and aligned micro position is 20.
2) Move to 1 7/32 = 1.219, partially clamp.
3) Rotate micro to 16 (or is it 24? clockwise anyway) to get the extra 0.004 so that fence is at 1.223.
4) Fully clamp.
5) Do the cut.
6) Partially clamp and move micro back to 20.
7) Unclamp and go to next pass.

That's pretty tedious, but might work in theory. I haven't tested repeatability...maybe with your new super-duper DRO you can? :smile:


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## jd99 (Jun 17, 2009)

PhilBa said:


> Yes, that's the point of the increments - avoiding microadjustment. Repeatability is out the window when you turn the microadjustment screw.


 That's not necessarily true.

If it was machine tools would never work and be repeatable.

I spent the first of my working life as a Tool and Die/Mold Maker holding tolerances of plus/minus .00005 with lead screws and dials (Micro adjuster).

The incra system uses the same technology as a machine tool (Lead Screw) the only difference is the incra system is using a split half nut mechanism so you can freely move it, where a machine tool you have to crank the handle. the micro adjuster is the same as a handle/dial on a machine tool it will repeat.

I use the incra system on my table saw also, if I have it set and for some reason I want another board 1/64" or something smaller or larger; I turn the micro adjuster cut my smaller or larger board, turn the micro adjuster back to zero, and my original cut dimension is back. Done this a bunch of times it always repeats. 

Thanks
Danny.


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## PhilBa (Sep 25, 2014)

I should have said the Incra gives you* easy *repeatability. Yes, you could make exact notes of the microposition and return to that setting. I won't be doing that as it is far too much work and time to repeat 30 or more cuts that way. With the example you give, you can keep in mind that you went some number of clicks one way and undo that. In doing a set of dovetails or box joints, you would have to do a precise sequence of steps and execute them exactly. Doing this for 4 sets of cuts seems pretty tedious and error prone. One mistake and it's firewood.


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## furboo (Oct 12, 2015)

You're right Phil...like I said, it's a tedious method, and I believe tweaking the depth is a better solution to the problem.


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## jd99 (Jun 17, 2009)

yep having to remember the sequence on how much to move the micro adjuster would be akin to produce errors.

one of the reasons on dovetails I use the spacing chart I got from incra.

I don't do box joints on my router table. I use the incra box joint jig on my table saw when I do them, most of my stuff is dovetails, and molding and edge detail stuff.

Oh and raised panel stuff.


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## furboo (Oct 12, 2015)

New release 0.9.1, as usual available at

pyRouterJig · A woodworking layout tool for creating box and dovetail joints

* Bit depth is no longer constrained to 1/32" (or 1mm for metric). You can input a decimal value, such as 0.291.
* The status bar (bottom of window) modified to show "Fit" and "Status". "Fit" shows the joint's maximum gap and overlap. These values should be non-zero only for dovetails. "Status" typically shows the outcome of the last operation.
* Tolerances on the Fit's gap and overlap may be set in the Preference's Misc tab. Above these tolerances, the maximum gap and overlap are highlighted in red, in order to warn the user. The default gap tolerance is 0.005". The overlap tolerance is 0.

Danny, for your case, at 1/4" you'll get a warning that you've exceeded the default overlap tolerance. By "overlap" I mean an interference fit. At a depth of 3/16", you actually get a gap of 0.002".

There were a lot of changes underneath the hood, and although I tested this version a lot, I wouldn't be surprised if there's not a few bugs. Let me know.


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## jd99 (Jun 17, 2009)

furboo said:


> New release 0.9.1, as usual available at
> 
> pyRouterJig · A woodworking layout tool for creating box and dovetail joints
> 
> ...



Thanks
Rob.

Busy trying to get customer projects out of my shop today, then start painting the vanity for my place.

I'll play around with it tonight...


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## furboo (Oct 12, 2015)

PhilBa said:


> OK, I am just going to have to make a custom DT box. As your alpha tester, I feel like I fell down on the job there!


I don't know why it didn't occur to me earlier...what a great idea for a tutorial, Phil! :smile:


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## furboo (Oct 12, 2015)

I finally got the time to try out a 9 deg, 3/8" Whiteside bit. For 11/16" spacing and 1/4" depth, for me, the interference is really bad. For 0.195" (roughly 3/16"), the fit is great...see below (1/2" baltic birch scrap, 2 1/4" wide). Danny, I can't figure out how you got the 1/4" depth to work that you posted on April 11!


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## PhilBa (Sep 25, 2014)

I've been a bit distracted here (prepping for a long trip to Italy) so didn't see this post until now. That looks like a very good fit Rob. And nice clean cuts on the tails. 

As to a tutorial, I'll consider it but lately I have had zero shop time for other than making a set of keep-sake boxes for all the people that are going on the trip. I will be back in June, so no shop time 'till then. After that, honey-do backlog. sigh...


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## furboo (Oct 12, 2015)

Phil, I love Italy, been there twice. Have a great trip! And I'm resigned to the fact that my honey-do list will never get shorter.


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## Canoerick (Aug 12, 2016)

*First time using Incra Jig*

I inherited an Incra Jig 20 years ago and I'm about ready to try using it!! I have no templates except the Box 5. Can I simply print out the templates that your program produces and tape them onto the Jig?

Thanks!


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## furboo (Oct 12, 2015)

Rick, the printed templates slide into the jig, after you print and cut them out. I'd say "just like the templates that came with the jig", but after 20 years, I'm assuming you no longer have the templates that came with it.


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## Canoerick (Aug 12, 2016)

I only have the Box 5 template that is still in the jig. I remeber seeing others, but they meant nothing to me at the time and I probably tossed them. So, I can photocopy ones that are in the book and I can print them from your program, and then slide them into the jig? 

Your program is marvelous! I wish that I understood 1/4 of it!!


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Canoerick said:


> I inherited an Incra Jig 20 years ago and I'm about ready to try using it!! I have no templates except the Box 5. Can I simply print out the templates that your program produces and tape them onto the Jig?
> 
> Thanks!


welcome to the forums Rick..
you are in a great place to be...
at 60 years experience I trust you have a lot to offer...


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## furboo (Oct 12, 2015)

Canoerick said:


> I only have the Box 5 template that is still in the jig. I remeber seeing others, but they meant nothing to me at the time and I probably tossed them. So, I can photocopy ones that are in the book and I can print them from your program, and then slide them into the jig?
> 
> Your program is marvelous! I wish that I understood 1/4 of it!!


Sorry for the slow response, Rick, but my day job has been crazy.

I'm not sure what you mean by photocopying from the book and printing from them pyRouterJig, or at least if I understand what you might mean, pyRouterJig can't do this. What you can do is enter the parameters (in particular, bit width, bit depth, bit angle), and then for the default settings under Equal Spacing, the program should give what's in the book. If not, please let me know.

One thing I noticed recently is that for dovetails, the program doesn't tell you the depth of the rabbet to cut. I need to figure out how they computed that and put it in the program. As long as you use the same bit parameters as in the book, the rabbet depth they recommend seems to work fine.


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## CharleyL (Feb 28, 2009)

There are strips for the Jointeck incremental positioner (Incra Jig's one time competitor - now history) in our manuals section, or do a search for "Jointeck" to find them. If you print each .jpg file at 100% on 8 1/2 X 11" photographic paper with your inkjet printer, and then carefully cut them apart, I think they will work in your Incra Positioner for you. Both products achieved incremental positioning, but used different technology to achieve it, however, the spacings required for the different joints were identical.

Charley


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## CharleyL (Feb 28, 2009)

Well, the library of manuals seems to have disappeared, since I last looked for it. So here are the template files that I was referring to in my previous post.


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## CharleyL (Feb 28, 2009)

Here is the sales brochure for the Jointech IPM.

Jointech is long since out of business, so these strips and their products are no longer available from them. In my opinion, they had a better product than Incra, but after the president and owner died, the family was not able to keep the business open.

Charley


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## furboo (Oct 12, 2015)

Charley, for these templates, there's not enough information on them to cut dovetails (or to create them in pyRouterJig). For example, I can't find the bit angle for dovetail joints on what you posted. For box joints, there's enough info there, if you just set the bit depth as your stock thickness.

I'm assuming the documentation had an additional table with more information. Each template is numbered (boxed number on the left-hand side), which I bet refers to the additional info. I don't see it in the brochure you posted.

The numbers on the templates appear to be the distance (in inches) from the "ZERO" line.


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## Tsignal (Jun 12, 2020)

*material thickness*

Bob is there any way to set the thickness of the stock you are going to use? ie board with = 4 1/4" by 1/2" thick


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Hi Tsignal and welcome. Rob hasn't been on the forum since January 2018 but maybe another member can answer that question.


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