# Bench dogs - two questions



## Auriga (Feb 13, 2018)

Hello there,

I've got a couple of questions on bench dogs and I'd like to pick your brains.

1. I've noticed that the majority of bench dogs fit 3/4" holes. Do you know if there's any reasoning behind it?
2. Is it at all beneficial if the dog is longer than the thickness of the worktop?

The reason is: I've got some 5/8" metal pipes that have got a threaded insert on one end. They'd make perfect benchdogs, and creating custom attachments (be it wooden, rubberized or a long L-bracket with one side routed alongside to create a fence) would be the cherry on top.


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## hawkeye10 (Jul 28, 2015)

I think that the English started using the bench dogs and they made theirs 20mm. When we started making bench dogs we made ours 3/4" or 19mm. You can buy 200mm dogs at a place called "Lee Valley" in Canada and they will ship them to you.


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## Auriga (Feb 13, 2018)

Thanks, Don, but I intend to make my own, custom set of dogs and fitting attachments. Hence my first question.

Although, the more I think about it, the more I'm sure that someone, at some point just said "let's make them 20mm", without any deeper thought behind it.


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

I'm a great fan of making something rather than buying, when I can. That size hole may have even been because whoever only had a 3/4" bit. :grin: I don't know, but I would think that having the length a bit more than the top thickness would be preferred - you can always cut one or two the same thickness and see. Wait, now that I think on it a second, I would say yes, longer, if you have short you are limited by the thickness of your work, so I would go for as much as 12" - some is good, more is better, too much is just enough. You have 5/8" pipe, I would say use it. Just some pictures later please.


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## Auriga (Feb 13, 2018)

This is true, too long is always better than too short. I'm not sure if I understood you correctly (as in, assuming that if the pipe is longer, it can protrude more from the top's surface). I had something else in mind. 










I'm quite sure you're more than familiar with this design (although it's only a mockup I just made). The idea is that the the pipe has got a threaded insert, and with this in mind, I can cook up literally any kind of attachment I wish, and just fasten it to the pipe. This being said, I might want to have them longer, as I just realised I could turn them around, use a couple of washers, a threaded rod and turn those into clamps. This is getting more exciting by the minute! Of course, I'll make sure to show them to you, once I'm done.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

"This is getting more exciting by the minute! "
-Jerry

Used to be women...now it's dogs. Man, the years are just slipping by.


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## Auriga (Feb 13, 2018)

Why not both?


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Too much effort.


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## MT Stringer (Aug 15, 2012)

I say it's your work bench. Do what works for you. Trial and error=experience! :grin:


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## P.W.H. (Feb 16, 2018)

Auriga said:


> Hello there,
> 
> I've got a couple of questions on bench dogs and I'd like to pick your brains.
> 
> ...


Don't, and I mean *DO NOT* make your benchdogs out of metal - at least the bits that stick up above the surface of the bench. You will live to regret it if you do.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

P.W.H. said:


> Don't, and I mean *DO NOT* make your benchdogs out of metal - at least the bits that stick up above the surface of the bench. You will live to regret it if you do.


Leaves marks on the material being held I’m assuming?


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

P.W.H. said:


> Don't, and I mean *DO NOT* make your benchdogs out of metal - at least the bits that stick up above the surface of the bench. You will live to regret it if you do.


Why not?


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## woodknots (Mar 7, 2012)

JOAT said:


> Why not?


 Because you run the risk of hitting metal with a blade, plane iron, etc.

I made some very simple dogs for my bench out of 1/4" plywood and a short piece of 3/4" dowel as in the photo.

You can also see a metal dog from Lee Valley in the back of my picture. That bench dog can be slid down below the surface of the work piece and I can also push it down into the hole so it's out of the way or remove it completely.


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

vchiarelli said:


> Because you run the risk of hitting metal with a blade, plane iron, etc.


No biggie, I'd have no issues with avoiding the metal.


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## woodknots (Mar 7, 2012)

JOAT said:


> No biggie, I'd have no issues with avoiding the metal.


Perhaps, but there might be some less experienced new woodworkers who could have issues avoiding the metal.


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## hawkeye10 (Jul 28, 2015)

Isn't the Parf Dogs made in England made from metal? I am assuming they are good bench dogs.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

hawkeye10 said:


> Isn't the Parf Dogs made in England made from metal? I am assuming they are good bench dogs.


soft metal...


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## P.W.H. (Feb 16, 2018)

I made mine from eucalyptus single piece - very strong & hard but not enough to put a big dent in your cutting edge on the chisel/plane should you happen to clip the benchdogs. Accidents do happen. I never knocked a glass over in 40 years .... and then I knocked over 3 in a couple of months. 

Don't fancy spending a couple of hours regrinding and honing a blade if I don't have to. YMMV - obviously.


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## wkearney99 (Oct 12, 2016)

hawkeye10 said:


> I think that the English started using the bench dogs and they made theirs 20mm. When we started making bench dogs we made ours 3/4" or 19mm. You can buy 200mm dogs at a place called "Lee Valley" in Canada and they will ship them to you.


Don't think it was the English, it was the Festool company. Their MFT uses 20mm holes, and it's quite a handy work surface. There are various jigs out there to help create perfectly spaced holes if you want to make your own top (Paulk is one such example).

If you're using the dogs as intended on an MFT there's no much chance of hitting them. I mean, sure, anything done wrong can break something, but this is true of any tool. I'd MUCH rather have the accuracy of the machined metal dogs for use as a reference straight edge, or even several angles with the right stepping of dogs.

One downside to a top full of holes is it means little stuff can fall through the holes if you're using the top for something other than making cuts. To that end I found it useful to make some 3D-printed caps that plug into the holes. I use 4 of these and a sheet of butcher paper to give me a clean, disposable and hole-free surface when I need to paint, glue-up or assemble stuff. 

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2075639

Wouldn't be anything preventing from making the plugs taller for use as a dog, but the metal ones are so much more stable/secure.


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## Auriga (Feb 13, 2018)

P.W.H. said:


> Don't, and I mean *DO NOT* make your benchdogs out of metal - at least the bits that stick up above the surface of the bench. You will live to regret it if you do.


I was thinking of using an aluminum L-bracket as a fence, otherwise wood and silicone rubber only (so that it doesn't leave marks). I might cover the aluminum with masking tape, though, to avoid any possible marks.

Would you mind sharing your experience with metal bits? Discoloration? Dents?

EDIT: I was a bit too hasty with my reply and I noticed already that the answer is already there.

Great idea with the caps! And thanks for all your replies  I'll try to come up with something more tangible this week.


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## coxhaus (Jul 18, 2011)

I used a dowel and a piece of pecan firewood which I resawed on the bandsaw to make my "T"s. The dowel is a little too big so I drilled the correct size hole in a steel plate. I added a few notches to act as knives. I took an electric drill and drilled the dowel through the steel plate which cut it down to the perfect size.


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## Knothead47 (Feb 10, 2010)

Dogs? Women? Discretion forces me to keep quiet here.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Great Britain and metrification:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metrication_in_the_United_Kingdom

GB and metric bench dogs have been mentioned a few times in this thread. Clearly at some point, likely since 1960+, somebody introduced the metric dog to you Brits. What was the size prior to that? I'm guessing they were non standard, but the likely winner was the 3/4" version. Just guessing, but most woodworkers probably made their own, especially post-War. (Not a lot of spare cash floating around in the 40's and 50's.)


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Jerry aluminum can leave black marks on wood. The Lee Valley ones are brass and they work well but not particularly cheap.

Many of the traditional work benches had rectangular holes and the dogs were wooden. It's still easy to make that style if you do it before you laminate your boards together. By the way, the Lee Valley dogs have a 2* negative slope on the faces to help wedge your work down onto the bench. If you make wooden dogs then it would be a good idea to do that to them as well.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

I'm pretty sure the ones we had on our High School wood shop benches were hardwood (early '60s)
At the time it was a brand new shop with high end everything.


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## Auriga (Feb 13, 2018)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> Jerry aluminum can leave black marks on wood. The Lee Valley ones are brass and they work well but not particularly cheap.
> 
> Many of the traditional work benches had rectangular holes and the dogs were wooden. It's still easy to make that style if you do it before you laminate your boards together. By the way, the Lee Valley dogs have a 2* negative slope on the faces to help wedge your work down onto the bench. If you make wooden dogs then it would be a good idea to do that to them as well.


This is already accounted for; the plan is to cover any aluminum parts with tape. As for the 2° inward slope, this is more than doable, although I'm quite convinced I could devise a clamp that would work with the thread thingy that I have. I also planned to make a set of "dog tops" with rubberized sides (again, silicone to avoid any marks) for added friction.

I already have a very early prototype, but it's only a piece of wood with a hole drilled through to allow for a bolt to be attached to the pipe. I'd rather show you something meaningful. So.... stand by


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## whimsofchaz (Jun 6, 2013)

Jerry what kind of work do you do on the bench? If it is primarily wood I would not use metal. If you are using different kinds of material you can always make wooden dogs at 5/8" Or you dress up your dogs for whatever you do. It's your bench after all.


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## Auriga (Feb 13, 2018)

whimsofchaz said:


> Jerry what kind of work do you do on the bench? If it is primarily wood I would not use metal. If you are using different kinds of material you can always make wooden dogs at 5/8" Or you dress up your dogs for whatever you do. It's your bench after all.


I was afraid someone would ask me that  I don't even have a bench yet, and this is more of a project to explore some avenues of what I could or could not do with bench dogs. Still, the plan is to work primarily with wood. 

The design for the very basic dog assumes that the pipe will be hidden and the "work surface" of the dog will be wooden. There will be a bolt connecting the wooden part to the pipe, but I intend to drill a recess in it so that the bolt head stays flush with the top surface of the dog.


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## hawkeye10 (Jul 28, 2015)

I have several bench dogs, some I made and some I bought, and some I like and others I don't. You just have to find out what works for you.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

If you haven't built the bench yet then you could go to the traditional type dog which is rectangular. You just slot your boards before you laminate them together.


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## Auriga (Feb 13, 2018)

I'm not sure what you mean by laminating the boards together in this context.

I intend to get a slate of 30mm plywood (like the one on the image below), 150cm x 60cm, and just measure and drill holes. I'm not sure if anything else is necessary. My intuition tells me that it should be a decent material for a work surface, as I can't really afford any "proper" wooden ones.









If I'm not allowed to link this image due to Copyright or similar laws, please let me know and I'll remove it.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Okay. I thought we were talking about more traditional workbenches that are laminated together from multiple boards. If you're using that ply you'll need a good sturdy ladder style frame below it.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Jerry; D. Fir plywood is available in 1" as well. We used it for stair treads
*4' x 8' x 24mm(1") Select Fir Plywood or 1 1/8"*, whichever is available to you
Get a buddy to help you pick it up... it's heavy!


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## Auriga (Feb 13, 2018)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> Okay. I thought we were talking about more traditional workbenches that are laminated together from multiple boards. If you're using that ply you'll need a good sturdy ladder style frame below it.





DaninVan said:


> Jerry; D. Fir plywood is available in 1" as well. We used it for stair treads
> *4' x 8' x 24mm(1") Select Fir Plywood or 1 1/8"*, whichever is available to you
> Get a buddy to help you pick it up... it's heavy!


Duly noted, gentlemen!

My plan was to get something thick and beefy, since it should it give me a bit more stability (assuming that it's properly supported) and it just feels.... sturdier.


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## Job and Knock (Dec 18, 2016)

DaninVan said:


> Clearly at some point, likely since 1960+, somebody introduced the metric dog to you Brits. What was the size prior to that? I'm guessing they were non standard, but the likely winner was the 3/4" version....


Read on and see my comments below to explain the situation.



hawkeye10 said:


> I think that the English started using the bench dogs and they made theirs 20mm. When we started making bench dogs we made ours 3/4" or 19mm.


Thanks for blaming the English :wink:, and BTW you guys still don't do metric - 20mm is NOT and never will be 3/4in, except maybe in Detroit :sarcastic:. In fact, because traditional English carpentry benches don't have dogs at all (we tend to use hold downs, disappearing bench stops, pinch cramps, deadmen or even just nail blocks onto the tops for use with wedges because our benches have very deep front aprons) and we traditionally didn't use an end vice, so I don't think it was us at all. I can well remember Lervad bringing the first Scandinavian benches (with rows of dog holes in the top and end vices) into the UK in the 1960s(?), but the dog holes on those were rectangular. Prior to those benches we didn't often see that type of bench in the UK, hence no dogs. The best known instance of a 20mm dog hole which I can think of is the Festool multi-function table (MFT/3) and its' predecessors. 










That most certainly does use a grid of 20mm holes (and is German) although the idea has been taken up by people such as Peter Parfitt and Axminster Power Tool and is spreading. Probably why if you are in Europe, like the OP, 20mm would be a better idea than 3/4in


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## Job and Knock (Dec 18, 2016)

Auriga said:


> My plan was to get something thick and beefy, since it should it give me a bit more stability (assuming that it's properly supported) and it just feels.... sturdier.


For a good bench top you need two things, mass and durability. A trade woodworker probably wouldn't choose plywood for the top - it tends to be too soft not to wear over a relatively short time - and instead would use a hardwood such as steamed beech or sycamore (in Europe) or rock maple (North America). The top does need to be a couple of inches (50mm or so) thick - but only where the dog holes are - the rest can be 1in (25mm) thick providing there is sufficient mass in the bench that using a hand plane on it won't shift it across the floor if you hit some rogue grain


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

I believe a number of people have mentioned using a layer of hardboard (Masonite) on top of the plywood...basically a disposable layer when it gets a bit scruffy. I guess it depends what you want it for(?)...
The Masonite makes a lot of sense if you're doing glue-ups and painting on it; household stuff rather them Queen Anne chairs. 
Half a century ago we did the glueing and finishing on metal topped tables (large!). They would have been galvanized but they may even have been Zinc.
(I think I remember our Danish shop teacher saying, "I zinc you should do zat over zere." )


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## Auriga (Feb 13, 2018)

I did consider using hardboard as a disposable top layer. Truth be told, the design of the bench top depends on so many things. Generally, I need a surface for a variety of stuff (woodworking, but also painting, electronics and some more). I can only imagine that I might need some holes for dogs, but then I'm seriously considering making a cavity for a custom acrylic base plate to attach my router from below.

Oh well. Next week I intend to finish working on my dogs, then we'll see.


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## Job and Knock (Dec 18, 2016)

DaninVan said:


> I think I remember our Danish shop teacher saying, "I zinc you should do zat over zere."


Take it from me, Dan, if there were a Smiley for "Groan" I'd be using it!


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

:wacko:


Job and Knock said:


> Take it from me, Dan, if there were a Smiley for "Groan" I'd be using it!


How about one for wacko instead? :wacko:


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## P.W.H. (Feb 16, 2018)

The workbench in my old shop had a front that was laminated from two 6x2' Jarrah planks - the front one on edge, the one behind on the flat, with square holes
for benchdogs cut into the on-edge plank. Very much in the traditional European shape that was mentioned here several times (well, that's the kind of bench
"Hobelbank" that I learned on). Behind those front planks, I had made the rest of the benchtop from 1/2" ply, and that worked just fine.

But then I made an assembly table ... which has no vices any more at all. This one has a top that is a stressed panel made from 2 laminated mdf sheets. 
{Oops, can't post a link to my work-in-progress page on another forum yet, I haven't been here long enough} send a message if you want a look-see. That was still made in my old shop, before we moved. Sadly, the old bench stayed behind; I'd love to have it back. The new assembly bench came with us. I don't use benchtops with the mdf skin - that'd be lethal - instead I hook a clamp through it to hold the work in place. The laminate doesn't accept pva glue well, so cleanup with a chisel or knife is easy when I've had squeeze-out dribble on the surface of the table. It just peels off.

Since I have a jointer and a thicknesser I don't need to true up planks with a hand plane any more, and this works out fine for me. I use scrap 'cover sheets' as sacrificial material when I break down sheet materials for cabinets. Methodology of working has changed over the last 30 years .... my hand planes and cabinet scrapers only come out after I've glued up a large panel (table top, headboard) when benchdogs wouldn't do all that much good in any event. 

Love the tip of 3D printing plugs for the holes by the way. I've a friend with a 3D printer, I will have to have a chat with him about this ...


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## Auriga (Feb 13, 2018)

I think you need at least 10 posts to publish links, and I think you already unlocked this.  I'm eager to see your setup.


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## P.W.H. (Feb 16, 2018)

Auriga said:


> I think you need at least 10 posts to publish links, and I think you already unlocked this.  I'm eager to see your setup.


Yes, it looks like I made the goalline. 

WIP - the new assembly table 
My pictorial ... you may possibly have to register if it doesn't want to show the pretty pictures ;-)

-Peter


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## Auriga (Feb 13, 2018)

To view those, I'd have to register on the forum where you posted those. Right now, I can't.


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

Auriga said:


> To view those, I'd have to register on the forum where you posted those. Right now, I can't.


I doubt you will regret it when you are able to register there, they've got some good stuff.


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## Auriga (Feb 13, 2018)

A strategic question. Once I'm done with my bench dogs, should I present them here, or should I create a new topic in Show N' Tell?


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Since the finished project is tied to this discussion I would post them here.


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## MT Stringer (Aug 15, 2012)

Auriga said:


> A strategic question. Once I'm done with my bench dogs, should I present them here, or should I create a new topic in Show N' Tell?


And, if you have numerous pictures of your construction, you could always post them in another thread dedicated to the bench dogs.

We like pictures! :grin: Or at least, I do.


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

MT Stringer said:


> We like pictures! :grin: Or at least, I do.


Yeah, we all like pictures. Sometimes it is so much easier to just look at a picture than to read and have to think.


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## Auriga (Feb 13, 2018)

Picture time! Apologies for the quality, my phone's camera isn't the best.

EDIT: it seems the photos were uploaded in the incorrect order. Please take a look at image names to determine the number.

Bear in mind that those are prototypes.

01. The pipes that I got.

02. A poor excuse for an initial prototype of my dogs.
PROS: I can make these babies faster than a bunny in heat.
CONS: Cleaning up after those takes longer that making them. Also, the screw protrudes from the top.

03. The (almost) final version.
PROS: a recess was drilled to accomodate a washer and a flat-headed M6 bolt (bear in mind I used a different one, as I forgot to buy the right ones)
CONS: can't think of any.

04. Here's a fairly... picturesque design for my "variable offset tension clamp" template. I made a vector template and cut it into the wood with a laser cutter.

05. Finished clamps.
The purpose of those is to keep a longer piece of wood in place. They aren't yet rubberized, which is the key part. The idea is that the diameter of the clamp changes as the dog with the clamp turn. This is not a new design, but I saw people using pieces of wood cut to resemble a Fibonacci curve. I thought I might try to come up with something more customizable.

At first, I cut the template with a laser, then cut both cirles with a bandsaw. Next, I drilled the tiny hole in the middle and made a makeshift jig, i.e. a nail and a piece of wood clamped to a disc sander. This way, I could get a smooth finish while just rotating the disk. Then I used flat drills to cut the recess for the washer, and finally - I drilled the channel for the bolt. You might notice equidistant lines - this is a ruler to make sure that both discs are offset the same way. I wanted to scratch a line in the washer to match.
PROS: they should work when rubberized
CONS: the might as well not work
Note to self: use weak laser settings when engraving the pattern into the wood. Also, plywood should work better than regular wood.



06. The design for the fence to match dogs.

For the record, I tried making one today but failed badly and broke a drill bit, hence a digital design.
I initially wanted to make one single channel alongside the whole bracket, but then it would wobble too much. Instead, I decided to drill two holes on each side to act as pivot points and guarantee that the bracket won't move. The single hole in the middle prevent the bottom of the bracket from wobbling too much due to the length of the channel.

Once I get the right screws and rubberize the tension clamps, I'll let you know. Also, if it turns out that the clamps work as intended and anyone else wants to replicate them, I'll be happy to share the template.


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

Certainly looks good to me. And you made them, not buy them.


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## Auriga (Feb 13, 2018)

Thank you. To be honest, I was hoping more people would comment on the prototypes.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Jerry; I'd be concerned about those exposed boltheads...I mean seriously concerned! I see barked knuckles in your future. Not to mention potentially damaged projects and edge tools. 
Here's an idea: recess a bolt on the bottom side and epoxy it in. Just as strong. And I don't understand the purpose of the adjustable bolt slot? Did you abandon that idea?
(You _did_ ask for feedback...  )


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## Auriga (Feb 13, 2018)

Oh Dan.  I really appreciate the feedback, although I did write that that particular bolt is only a stopgap measure.  There is already a recess (a bit too shallow though, I'll have to deepen it) in both dogs to allow for a proper bolt to sit flush with the dog itself.

A proper bolt being this one:









Not sure what you mean by abandoning the idea. Which idea did you have in mind?

And, by "the adjustable bolt slot", do you mean the one in the tension clamps?


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

?...I'm so confused! 
I thought these _were_ the early version of the dogs(?).
By the way, and I've mentioned this in the past, if you want really inexpensive angle iron, the mattress shops collect the stuff in large quantities from old bed frames that aren't suitable for new mattress warranties. The old ones often don't have a middle wheel assembly, so the weight of two people tends to sag the old frames. (or so I was told.)
My mattress shop up here gives the stuff away!


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## Auriga (Feb 13, 2018)

Well, they are the early version, in the sense that they're missing the right bolt, and I'm also considering running rubber tape around one or two, for extra grip. Because why not?  Then they'll be done.

Considering the tension clamp; the design is more or less finished, but I will have to refine the template a bit, redo them again in plywood, use better laser settings (it cut too deep and some of the wood chipped off during drilling) and of course, rubberize them. Without rubber tape, they're useless.

Regarding the bracket, I opted for aluminum since it's infinitely easier to drill into it. My first design failed miserably, because I drilled a channel without the middle hole. Because of that, it got... "wobbly" and very, very uncooperative. Also, I might just have the channel CNCd which would also make it totally hassle-free.


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## Job and Knock (Dec 18, 2016)

Auriga said:


> Well, they are the early version, in the sense that they're missing the right bolt, and I'm also considering running rubber tape around one or two, for extra grip. Because why not?


Why not? Because rubber tape is compressive and may allow movement of the workpiece when you are clamping or machining. If you are going to use rubber it I would have thought it should ideally be vulcanised hard rubber. Softer rubbers also tend to wear out a lot faster. TBH the "old fashioned" joiners approach used to be to use contact glue to apply a layer of sanding paper

In terms of material the best "metal" components would be aluminium (albeit a bit soft), brass or industrial nylon. Any of these can be accidentally machined without necessarilly destroying the cutter


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