# Drywall sanding



## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

One of the messiest jobs is sanding drywall. There is an easy way to eliminate most of the mess: use water bath filtration with your shop vac. I found this Sand and Kleen Jr kit at a yard sale for $10. It uses sanding screens for fast cutting and your vacuum pulls virtually all the dust into the water bath where it is captured. It works very well and they offer larger models for big jobs. Clean up is easy, just dump and rinse the bucket. It would not be difficult to build your own version of this tool.


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## hawkeye10 (Jul 28, 2015)

Great idea. I wonder if you could put water in your shop vac and do the same thing. I have a Ridgid vac and I know you can clean up water from a floor or what ever.


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## hawkeye10 (Jul 28, 2015)

By the way Mike you come up with some good things to help us do what we need to do and I appreciate it.


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Don, if you rigged a pipe inside the vacuum from the inlet port to below the water level it would work. I think it is better to modify a bucket for this; much easier to clean up.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Wish I knew about this about a week ago lol . Actually I've got lots left yet . Just gotta find one .
Right now I'm using a shop vac with the inside bag plus the upper filter


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Mike , so I guess the pick up tube that goes to the sander goes in the water, and the one going to vac is at the top so it doesn't draw water in the vac. Could you possibly post a pic with the underside of the lid and dimensions . 
Thanks


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## cocobolo1 (Dec 31, 2015)

*Magna Sand & Kleen*

Thanks Mike...looks like a very handy tool.

I checked on Amazon.com and it runs $117 U.S. Add in the shipping & tax for us beleaguered Canadians and it ends up costing $218.

On Amazon.ca, it's about $157 Presumably plus tax, but free shipping.

I sure wouldn't mind having one of these, as I will be doing the entire house very shortly. Anything to help alleviate the mess is going to be more than welcome.

If any of you Canucks have found one north of the border...let us know. Thanks.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

We used the plain-Jane Shop Vac system for years. Clients really appreciated the vastly reduced dust problem (using a ShopVac sander) created by drywall sanding. Most of our customers had heard horror stories from others who'd had reno's done, and where the contractor had done little or nothing to protect the customers' homes and possessions. It just doesn't have to be that bad.
First step is dust barriers in every doorway...confine the dust to the room you're working in. Alternatively, move everything in the house out into storage. You can't eliminate all the dust.
When you fill, don't leave globs of mud on the area you're mudding; it should be flat and clean with a feather edge. depressions in the mud don't matter...you'll catch them with your next or final coat. If you aren't a pro at filling, count on doing three coats not two.
Don't try and sand down the first coat; you only need to do a couple of passes with 100grit, to knock off any high spots and bits sticking up.
That's the trick with sanding; you're only trying to remove the high spots, not take it down to the level of the lowest areas. I've seen guys put on a bucket of mud, then sand it down to the point that most of it's sitting on the floor!
Buy finish mud for your final coat; you'll be a lot happier mudder. The final sanding is referred to as 'polishing'...220grit A light touch!!!
Here's the rub...no pun intended. The screens for vacuum sanding have a nasty tendency to leave scratches, unlike paper or sanding sponges.
If I'm doing small repairs, I just sand with a fine sanding sponge and hold the Shop Vac nozzle _right under_ where I'm actually sanding. That's extremely effective.
Also, if there's forced air heating, cover both the cold air returns and the registers with poly; turn the furnace off. Having the ducts cleaned is a p.i.t.a.
Good luck! 
Oh, and if you're over 50, take a *Vitamin I before starting a big sanding project! 


* Ibuprofen


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## MT Stringer (Aug 15, 2012)

Thanks Mike. Sounds like a good idea to minimize sanding dust.

I have a Dust Deputy hooked up to my shop vac. The hose is connected via pvc piping to the miter saw, bench top belt sander, and a port which I hook up a hose for the ROS, and the router table. It does a pretty good job of capturing everything that goes through the hose. It simply drops out into the bucket.

I checked the shop vac last week and the internal bag was empty and the filter looked factory fresh!  If you have one, it could be a good alternative...and no water needed.

BTW, I hate sanding of any kind! :surprise::surprise::surprise:


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

I use the cyclone to capture the dust...but a lot always get's through.

I've tried the inlet in the water trick and the water gets kicked up so much that dust and water gets in the vac hose and settles...then you have to beat it out. (Funny...doesn't happen on the other thing)

I also found that once the initial dust layer sits on the water surface, the rest goes into the shop-vac anyway and becomes less and less effective...

Most effective I have found is dry vacuuming and not using the mesh papers...leaves scratches as Dan pointed out.

An ROS connected to a shop-vac is ok but ya can't beat good mudding and little sanding...

A real mudder (as he called himself) once told me "if you have to sand, you put on too much"...he used to finish the last coat by dipping the knife in water...I never got that good (I'm sure he was exaggerating). 


Good find on the bucket and pad...always looking for ways to beat down the dust...


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## Knothead47 (Feb 10, 2010)

I removed the popcorn crap on the ceiling in the MBR. I started out with the hand sander but bought a Dewalt electric sander that hooks to the Shop Vac. I used the bags to collect the dust. Hand sander was a bit hard on the back with sanding overhead for several hours. Dewalt sander was much quicker, too.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

"A real mudder (as he called himself) once told me "if you have to sand, you put on too much"...he used to finish the last coat by dipping the knife in water...I never got that good (I'm sure he was exaggerating). "
-Nick

Amen! And no, he wasn't exaggerating. Doesn't work that well in the corners though.
All this is old school anyway. With machine taping it's a moot discussion.


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

'sponge sand it"..


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

TwoSkies57 said:


> 'sponge sand it"..


wet pad sand it...
learn to do do better mudding...


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

"...learn to do do better mudding..."
That would suggest that folks that didn't want to do it in the first place should do MORE of it! Heheheheh

Remember that old song, 'Hello Mudder Hello Fadder' ?


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## BrianS (Nov 7, 2004)

Yes, I've done just enough drywall and mud to know that I dislike it... A LOT!! And yes, I'm one of those "over mudders" kind of people. I did try to correct that when I did my bathroom, but it's a difficult habit to break. I have a sander that connects to my shopvac, and while it did cut down on the dust, it just about killed the shopvac. I don't think there is a fine enough filter to stop ALL of that dust. I'm familiar with the water filter concept, but never used it.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Dan I am pretty much doing exactly as your saying . I have a piece of plastic over the hallway opening , plus I hold the nozzle of my shop vac underneith my sanding block as am sanding .
I'm using two filter systems in my shop vac, the bag and the upper filter which is a 1 micron version


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

DaninVan said:


> "A real mudder (as he called himself) once told me "if you have to sand, you put on too much"...he used to finish the last coat by dipping the knife in water...I never got that good (I'm sure he was exaggerating). "
> -Nick
> 
> Amen! And no, he wasn't exaggerating. Doesn't work that well in the corners though.
> All this is old school anyway. With machine taping it's a moot discussion.


I went to heavy on my first coat , but I'm going to light on the next ones as the taping and corner beads are done , so I'm just filling in small valleys . 
I'm sure it will take me more than three coats , but I don't really care as I'm not on a rush and I want a good outcome


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Atta Boy, Rick!! Good attitude; we'll make you into an honorary Italian at this rate...


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## eccentrictinkerer (Dec 24, 2007)

I bought this system for $25 ten years ago. Works great.

Clean the water bucket often.










http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41PAG4DC4CL.jpg


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## eccentrictinkerer (Dec 24, 2007)

Knothead47 said:


> I removed the popcorn crap on the ceiling in the MBR. I started out with the hand sander but bought a Dewalt electric sander that hooks to the Shop Vac. I used the bags to collect the dust. Hand sander was a bit hard on the back with sanding overhead for several hours. Dewalt sander was much quicker, too.



I use a plant sprayer with warm water and a little soap. Spray it on about six square foot area of 'popcorn' and wait a couple of minutes.

Then use a 10" or 12" blade to slide the mush off the ceiling into a cake pan. 13' x 14' room stripped in an hour and a quarter. And no dust!


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

eccentrictinkerer said:


> I use a plant sprayer with warm water and a little soap. Spray it on about six square foot area of 'popcorn' and wait a couple of minutes.
> 
> Then use a 10" or 12" blade to slide the mush off the ceiling into a cake pan. 13' x 14' room stripped in an hour and a quarter. And no dust!


yes...
the the rel deal...

but if you need to sand...

.


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

DaninVan said:


> Atta Boy, Rick!! Good attitude; we'll make you into an honorary Italian at this rate...


:surprise::surprise::surprise::surprise:

...starting exportation process...


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Nickp said:


> :surprise::surprise::surprise::surprise:
> 
> ...starting exportation process...


you now have a new neighbor Nick...
you will watch over the prodigal child I trust...


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## CharleyL (Feb 28, 2009)

*Sponge sanding drywall joints*



TwoSkies57 said:


> 'sponge sand it"..


I also never sand drywall. 

I use a wet (not dripping) sponge and just wipe off the joints and rinse the sponge out often. There's no dust to deal with at all. Also, a sponge wipe across the whole surface, not just the taped areas, will produce a wall less texture variation between the joints and the open wall surface.



It usually takes me 3 coats of mud to do the joints. I like to use the fiberglass tape with the sticky backing, applied to all of the joints before mudding. It cuts easily by holding the taping knife against it on the wall and using the sharp edge of the knife to pull / rip the applied tape at the knife edge. With the paper tape it's necessary to apply a thin layer of mud, then apply the tape to the joint, and then use a 4-6" taping knife to embed the paper tape down against the surface of the drywall seam, while coating both sides of the tape with a thin layer of mud. The fiberglass tape is way faster and easier to apply. It also seems to make a stronger joint that is more resistant to cracking. 

Then the first coat of mud is applied to fill all of the nail / screw holes and edge taper of the drywall. It doesn't have to perfectly fill them or be very smooth, but there should be as few high spots as possible. I apply the mud thick with a taping knife and then grade it to thickness with a 10" curved trowel. This trowel curve is very slight and leaves just enough excess mud for the surface to be fairly flat after it shrinks during drying, although it will be slightly below the surface of the drywall. Small voids and minor ridges are allowed in this step. Don't try to get the surface perfect in this pass. Just try to fill the majority of the joint to the trowel level. After it's dry I scrape the surface with a dry taping knife to remove any nibs and high spots. 

Then I apply the second coat of mud. On very dry days, a light water spray (no runs) over the surface with a spray bottle just before applying the mud will help the new mud stick better and flow easier. Without it, the wall may absorb too much water from the mud too quickly. On the tapered seams I apply a thick layer of mud and then trowel it off with a 12" curved trowel. The resulting surface should nearly completely fill the tapered joint areas of the drywall edges. I also apply the second layer of mud over all of the nail or screw indentations using one long swipe of the knife for each row of screws/nails. Again, when this layer is dry, I scrape off the surface with a dry taping knife to remove nubs and high spots.

On the final coat of mud, I use only a 14" wide taping knife and lightly spray the wall before applying the mud. This coat is very thin and I take the time to be certain that the surface of the mud is as smooth as possible and overlapping the previous layers so that each seam is now 14-16" wide with very thin feathered edges and about 1/8" thick in the middle of the joint. Applying a slight right twist to the taping knife handle will produce the feathered right edge and a slight twist to the left will feather the left side of the joint. Try to avoid creating a ridge build-up of mud down the center of the joint as you do this. Sometimes a very light spot spray of water is needed to make the knife slide over the mud smoothly. When dry I lightly scrape the surface to remove nubs and tiny ridges. The wall should now be almost perfect. 

A light positioned to shine almost parallel to the wall across the joint will make it easy to see any surface imperfections that need correction. They will show up like mountains and valleys in this cross light. It may also help on the previous coat, and the final sponging, until your abilities improve.

For the last "sponge sanding" treatment, I fill a 5 gallon pail about 3/4 full of warm (not hot) water and use a large synthetic sponge roughly 3" X 6" x 10" and shaped kind of like a fat hour glass. Most any synthetic sponge roughly this size with flat sides will work fine. I wet the sponge and wring it out several times, leaving the sponge wet, but not dripping, on the last wring out. I wipe across the mudded joints of the wall, paying attention to the feathered edges so as not to wipe too heavily, but you want to fade these edges so the actual edge is not a distinct line. You are trying to make the joint smooth, not remove all of the mud. If the joint is vertical, the wiping action should be roughly horizontal and diagonal across it. With some of the mud still on the sponge, I also wipe the entire paper surface of the drywall to leave a very thin layer of mud on the entire surface. This wiping action should blend the seams to the drywall surface leaving an almost identical surface texture, so there shouldn't be shiny / dull variations of the wall in the first coats of paint that get applied. I replace the water in the bucket often as it tends to thicken with mud from the frequent sponge wringing. 

When the wall is dry it is ready for priming / painting, without the need to breathe or vacuum up any sanding dust. It is a much preferred method when working in a furnished and lived in home.

Charley


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## Danman1957 (Mar 14, 2009)

Hi Mike,
I have the exact system and I've been using it for years. I saw it used in an office and saw no dust ? so I asked the contractor and I haven't had dust issues since. The only thing I find touchy with it, is you must control the amount of suction. Too much and you won't be able to move the handle to sand, it will be very hard to get a good motion going. Depending on the power of the shop vac used you might need to block part of the suction from the vac to the pail. Also, DON'T leave the residue in the bottom of the pail for more than a day, trust me you won't enjoy the smell after a few days, I know this first hand.
Another thing people can do is buy specific mud for specific jobs. I almost always use the cheapest for the first two coats, then I buy the mud that when you sand it the dust falls right away and doesn't rise in a cloud. It cost a coulpe dollars more per pail but well worth it.
Happy sanding !
Dan


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## senebraskaee (Apr 29, 2012)

Have used the Sand-N-Kleen system for at least 20 years and have dumped many, many buckets of wet mud out that otherwise would have either coated everything in the house or clogged the filter on my shop vac. They make both small and large bucket systems, but I started with the small bucket and found it had too much turbulence and a lot of water and slop made it into the shop vac. The bigger, 5 gallon bucket, system cured that. There are also several hollow handle sanding poles that use the mesh and vacuum the dust through the handle. Saves stooping and reaching.
The real secret to the Sand-N-Kleen system is the very light hose that is quite long and very easy to maneuver compared to even the lightest shop vac hose. 
Dan, I also have had the vacuum set too high (there is an adjustment on the bucket end) and it stuck the sanding pole pad to the wall so tight I could hardly move it, and yes, after a day or two you do NOT want to smell what is still in the bucket! I have had better luck with a smaller, less powerful sander, with the bonus it is quieter as well.
The new dust control mud is wonderful stuff. The dust is very heavy and mostly just falls to the floor. The amount of dust that ends up in the water bucket is almost not worth the trouble.
If you do much taping of drywall a rubber edge trowel is very handy once you get the hang of it. Really smooths/feathers out the edges without requiring the skill of a master "mudder". Kind of spendy though.
Fiberglass tape is the way to go. Actually, the drywall folks claim paper tape, properly applied, is stronger, but the "properly applied" part is very tricky and even the pros mess this up on occasion.
I am finally good enough to get compliments from folks that don't know what a Level 5 finish is or looks like, but my finished product comes at the cost of slow progress and many coats. I am happy to end up with a 3+.


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## Knothead47 (Feb 10, 2010)

eccentrictinkerr, I did that on advice from SWMBO who saw that on a TV show. It was a mess as the putty knife would gouge the paper on the sheet rock. Then I had to fill in the gouges! I had done two closets and the MBR ceiling without wetting it. A good quality putty knife will do the job very nicely.


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