# Is "The Best" always the best path?



## GulfcoastGuy (Feb 27, 2012)

For newcomers to the woodworking hobby is getting the “best you can afford” always the best idea?

When making recommendations to newcomers for hand tools, blades, and bits I’ve noticed some division in the approach. Some recommend the path I have taken; buy lesser priced items with reasonable quality with the expectation that mistakes WILL be made and damage to the lower priced items will be more easily absorbed. As skill improves and perceived need is observed, higher quality replacements can be obtained. Others take the position that the highest affordable quality at the onset affords the new user advantages that outweigh the risk of damaging higher cost items through inexperience and poor technique.

I’d like to ask for opinions on the subject and if you would, take some time to state the reasons for the positions you take. I'm not expecting to establish right or wrong here, just gathering individual opinions.

GCG


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

GulfcoastGuy said:


> For newcomers to the woodworking hobby is getting the “best you can afford” always the best idea?
> 
> When making recommendations to newcomers for hand tools, blades, and bits I’ve noticed some division in the approach. Some recommend the path I have taken; buy lesser priced items with reasonable quality with the expectation that mistakes WILL be made and damage to the lower priced items will be more easily absorbed. As skill improves and perceived need is observed, higher quality replacements can be obtained. Others take the position that the highest affordable quality at the onset affords the new user advantages that outweigh the risk of damaging higher cost items through inexperience and poor technique.
> 
> ...


Patrick.

I've been there (and still am on a limited/fixed budget). Low cost tools, cheap or frugal. I've certainly made some mistakes thinking I can buy something to get by... and later regreted it in some ways. 

One of those ways is that they didn't last and feeling I wasted my money. Another is when I had to struggle to try to get the quality of product and had to work twice as hard to get that quality.

And you would think I would have learned. Starting out as an automotive, diesel and marine mechanic, quality tools with a good warrantee were easier to get quality work and that investment in tools was somewhat protected with that warrantee. 

Then as a carpenter and as a farrier, same. Yet, every once in a while I'd forget and do it again. Sometimes I didn't have the money and figured I needed it and the price was good enough that I'd use it until it gave out. Funny thing is, that most of those throw aways are still working.

I remember the tools I started out with as a carpenter. A toolbelt, skillsaw, hammer and some handtools. Next, Makita CMS and airguns. Delta Table Saw (that one was a mistake) and a PC router...

Tools and what you can afford? I'm middle of the road with that. I certainly can't afford the best, but I know what to stay away from of cheap. Some cheap is just downright dangerous. I can do a lot on not much at all. But most of that is because I know what to do. But I can also take what is old and rebuild, new and modify for more accuracy or different capabilities. Depends on the foundation.

It would be easier for someone new to learn on quality tools, but that's just not realistic, unless they're using some else's. I know a lot of people who went through farrier school, only to realize that's not what they want to do. Same with carpentry and woodworking.

So yes, "frugal." Some things are an investment... On those things, save and hold out until you can afford it. On those items I did like that, I still have that original skill saw and chop saw... others, over 20 years old. I got my shop saw used 22 years ago... is now 45 years old. Heck, I have a chainsaw that I saved up for from bucking hay at 14 years old and bought for $20. I'm 52 now.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Hey, Patrick; interesting point you bring up. I'd divide the tool category into two sub-groups.
a) mechanical or/and electrical in construction
2) static things like squares and hammers
For the first group, brand and quality are key considerations. Other woodworkers experiences should help in the decision process, if possible(?).
In the second category, a large dose of common sense, judgment, and pragmatism should help shape the buying choice. Frankly, how bad can a 15lb sledge hammer be? A dirt cheap framing square might however be a bit wonky. Even so, it's also possibly just fine.
Screwdrivers at the bottom end of the price scale are likely a complete waste of money. Same for socket sets; the sockets may be acceptable but the ratchets are probably just that...


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## pretender74 (May 27, 2011)

I'm with DaninVan. I do with what I have and if it doesn't do the job then I look to spend more. As long as I'm busy in my shop!


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## OPG3 (Jan 9, 2011)

Patrick, this is a great thread topic! I think Mike and Dan have both given some good points and explained their thoughts quite well. It seems to me that we are all in a state of buying the equipment based on what we anticipate the need and environment to be. I like to think that I'm buying excellent tool quality at good prices - which is where I would venture to guess many of us "settle". It's an attitude we form when we're young and it gets tested everytime we apply whatever it is that we have purchased. Certainly, some tools get "called-on" to perform to strict guidelines, while others sit-around waiting for that once-in-a-lifetime application. Take crowfoot wrenches, for example; I have a very nice set of imperial and another nice set of metric, but to be perfectly honest - they quite rarely get utilized. I have numerous other tools that sit around rarely getting called upon. Routers, drills, circular saws and stuff like that - to me - need to be dependable, but not to "break the bank". I like trouble-free, so I try to research upcoming purchases and to make informed decisions. To me, *the Router Forums* is as good as it gets as far as "Consumer Info" on tools such as this. A huge percentage of "professional testers" have hidden agendas and are nothing short of a marketing angle.
Probably more than anything, we all need to focus on what matters and what doesn't matter. A high quality item that never gets used is serving very little function IMHO, but a tool that gets called-on frequently needs to be dependable and above all: SAFE!
Things change over the years in many cases: Porter-Cable at a point-in-time was one of the best router makers we see, but now; it is my understanding that their quality has diminished greatly. Bosch is a brand I haven't used in years - but they seem to me to be "on a roll" continuously striving for excellent quality, and a huge part of their tools are manufactured right up I-85 in South Carolina. I applaud Bosch for their efforts and their solid reputation for market research. It has been proven several times that the people at Bosch, truly listen to consumer feedback and build on it! This impresses me tremendously! Personally on hand-held power tools, I tend to buy two or several of one specific model or unit - so that accessories are interchangeable. Unless someone is driving a Benley Pickup Truck and stocking all of their systainers with Festool equipment and using 4 gauge extension cords - I think we are all in a state of compromise.
Dependant on the kind of work that we each do, there are slightly different angles we must view purchases from. A plumbing repair friend of mine buys power tools from Harbor Freight because in plumbing, tools get abused even when intentions are highest - and he said he saves money by simply throwing-away damaged merchandise. He could be buying super-nice tools for his application, but he doesn't because experience has proven to him that tools will get broken, dropped, submerged, etc.
*SAFETY IS WHERE WE SHOULD NEVER COMPROMISE!* Safety features that are comfortably utilized are something we should all look for - and if we don't we learn really quickly that a finger is worth much more than any amount of money in tool savings!


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## Gene Howe (Jul 10, 2007)

Newbys to any profession likely don't have the experience to determine what tool quality will achieve the results they seek with safety and precision. 
But, in most professions there are colleagues to steer the newby in the right general direction. Not so in woodworking. That is most often a solitary endeavor. (One of it's appeals)
Probably the best suggestion to a newby is to establish the immediate goal, whether it's a simple box or a Maloof rocker. Then decide how long of a learning curve you are willing to endure without frustration. Then determine which tools are needed. For some, an exclusively hand tool shop will be great. And that, opens up another whole can of worms. Not only which tools but what methods to employ to maintain their usefulness and what tools for that are necessary. But, one can usually afford some T&E regarding quality. 
A power tool shop can be an easier path, a flatter learning curve but more expensive and dangerous. Not a situation conducive to a lot of T&E. 
We old sots can make a fair judgment regarding quality, utility and safety and buy the right tool to serve our purposes. Some times it may be a throw away, other times, we may need to spend a bundle. But the ability to make that determination comes mostly from experience.
So....all above is my justification for suggesting that a newby, after enough research and opinions from folks on forums like this one, purchase only the tools he/she anticipates an immediate need for and then, buy the best he/she can afford. Bearing in mind that procuring tools is a sickness that only get's worse.


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

It has been said that if you buy the best you will never be disappointed in your purchase. Sadly that is not always true. We all have our individual needs in the tools we chose. There are reasons Craftsman hand tools are still top sellers; good selection, reasonable quality, warranty and affordable price.(most of the time)

Snap-on tools are always top quality and you pay for it. You also get service far beyond what is offered by other brands. If you break a tool in the middle of the night Sears will not open to get you a replacement but I have had a Snap-on driver bring me a replacement at 10 pm. This is a big part of the reason so many professionals chose Snap-on. Joe home owner does not need these benefits so Craftsman tools work fine... "Good enough for the kind of girls we go with!" (or guys for our female members.  )

Bits and blades: Cutting tools vary widely in quality and performance. People make mistakes when they start using these tools. These could include running a bit at too high a speed or extended time and turning it blue,(losing the temper or hardness from over heating) starting a router with the bit in contact with the material,(a sure way to peel off the carbide tips) having a bit roll off a bench onto the floor or storing them loose in a box or drawer and allowing the carbide to chip against another bit. These lessons are best learned with a cheap bit. Another reason to buy an inexpensive bit is for a project where the bit will only be used once or twice. When it is time to replace a bit moving up in quality is a smart move. Some people prefer to purchase a couple of cheap replacements instead of one premium bit and that works too. There is no reason to buy a $100 blade for a $100 table saw; the blade will perform beyond the saws capability. I get great results with a $50 Freud red blade on my $400 Craftsman table saw.(Better than with the more expensive PC Razor variable tooth design)

I guess the best advice is to purchase the quality level of tool you need.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Mike; so many of the newer tools are developed by designers with no field experience. I say that being generous! If they did have then there's no excuse for some of the bizarre ideas that make it into the marketplace.
-single vial levels (straight vials instead of slightly arced...ptuiii!)
-levels with plastic end caps ...no chance of getting an accurate end mark (at 90deg.) 
-tools painted black (" ok; it was here a second a go...")
-plastic handled just about everything. Who buys a handsaw with a plastic handle?
-brittle plastic 'display' cases of tool sets, screw extraction sets for example. Those boxes go out to the truck in a tool box...display box life expectancy; 15 minutes.
Anybody else want to add to the the list of asinine marketing ideas?


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## Roloff (Jan 30, 2009)

*Buy good USED tools to save money*



GulfcoastGuy said:


> For newcomers to the woodworking hobby is getting the “best you can afford” always the best idea?
> GCG


It depends on the tool, among other things. Over the years, I've seen a growing distance between the cost of varying quality levels. I grew up with Good Better Best, with Good being, for instance, $50, $80 for Better and $125 for Best. (I'm not being literal, I'm pointing to the differences and overall range of price levels.) Now, I'm seeing that Barely Good Enough to Avoid Injury can mean a Chinese tool with nearly zero quality control for $30, A Tool That Will Last 40 Uses is $99 and A Really Great Tool is $500! 

Here's what I hate to hear: "I'm new, I will only use this widget once in a while, not like a pro who will use it daily for many hours, so I can buy a cheap tool to see if I really like the task." 

Many, many cheap tools today WILL NOT DO THE JOB WELL EVEN ON THE FIRST USE. I wish I were kidding.

It isn't as bad as 20 years ago, when flea markets were overflowing with Chinese tools that looked new. They didn't work well enough to GET any range marks on them! A jointer that never gave a flat surface, a router with runout of 0.09" (I'm not exaggerating, lots of Craftsman routers had runouts of 0.07 at the high end of their price range), a jig saw that basically bent every blade you used, so you never got a square cut -- these terrible tools hit the used market in droves, quickly creating an anti-China backlash that's still evident today.

Over time, Chinese tools have improved. Harbor Fright began to generate better user reviews in message boards. Now, there are a half dozen major tools you CAN save money on, if you buy the right model numbers and get it on sale. Listen to other users, forget the ads. You even need to be careful reading feedback sometimes, shills are everywhere as companies notice that new buyers are swayed by user reviews. Use your head and learn more about what makes a tool better at doing the jobs you want it to do. 

At the middle and upper end, I'm not sure we've made the same progress. Everything's made in China now. Some big brands make a case that they've improved their oversight to the point where they have China-based branches with American quality control staff on duty 24/7. If the reviews I've seen from old time users is a clue, many major brands are NOT doing enough to police their Chinese operations.

I've basically been retooling recently, replacing just about everything, from hand tools to compressors and power tools. I've had some major shocks. It isn't as simple as, "Buy Festool," any more. No one company makes ALL the best tools in every category. The prices have gone very much upward on everything. The worst news: I'm now seeing bad reviews of brands I once thought completely trustworthy. 

My advice if you can wait is to buy USED tools with great reputations, not cheap new tools. You not only save money on that initial buy, if it turns out you don't like doing, say, scroll sawing, you will get WAY more of your money back (maybe even make a profit) if you get a good condition used Delta 2-speed than if you buy a new Dremel, even though the Dremel is marketed much better. If you buy a $50 Delta and don't like scroll sawing, you'll get back the $50 when you sell. If you buy a Dremel and want to sell it, you'll get back less than $50 many times! The aftermarket pays less attention to marketing sparkle.

Paper specs have been gamed to the point where a lot of info is unreliable. Companies don't try to make THE ONE BEST Anything any more. They've sliced up the market into segments like, "This feature will gain us a return on investment 1.4% higher than if we included Feature B on this model." It's like digital cameras, where you don't get ONE camera any more that does everything very well, you get combo plates at different price levels. Companies are actually making WORSE models in some cases, to get the price down by eliminating features. 

With the continuing bad economy, you can find GREAT bargains in tools from people liquidating their work shop to pay mortgages or college tuition. Don't be afraid to wait. Your thumbs might thank you by staying attached to your hands.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Depends on what I expect the tool to do. A simple chop saw just needs to be able to cut angles accurately without any wobble. I have an digital angle gauge to make certain its right on, so moderate priced is OK. But, say, for a jointer, after researching very carefully, I got a Powermatic (Amazon shipped the 300 lb unit free and the price was OK). The extra long outfeed table and its near perfect flatness and aged steel before machining produces dead flat wood every time--which is the only thing that counts. After carefully reading all the negatives about many planer models, I bought a Makita, the blades for which seem to hold up better than most units. It was near double the cost of comparable sized units, but their either had 2 blades or weak steel blades on a machine where precision counts and produces better wood work. I now always read as many reviews as I can find on all the candidate tools before deciding. Make sure you read all from 5 star down to 1 star since you also want to know what might be a recurring problem. Check the age of reviews too, since negative reviews spur some companies to change their weaknesses (Bosch on-off switches are a good example). Recently got a #4 Wood River plane after going through 200-300 reviews on all brands and models. It costs less than the high end planes, but when tuned right, it is great, so I took a class at Rockler on tuning planes and bought a book as well. In that research I found there have been many improvements in Wood River Version 3 models since they listen to feedback. I bought a Bosch router after finding very high marks for quality in research and because that is one tool where precision counts. I know Porter Cable is easy to find as well, but after careful inspection, I far prefer the Bosch raising and lowering mechanism. Bargains play a role for me as well, for example a Rockler router table, top and lift went on sale for about 25 % off, so I indulged...with no regrets, I might add since this really improved results for me. 

Early on I bought a Delta 14 inch band saw because it was on sale for less than 300 bucks...it has performed OK, but I'm adding a set of Carter guides because my research showed that would bring performance up equal to much more expensive units. If I had my druthers now, I'd pony up the $1,100 for a Laguna instead, but because of the low volume of work I do, I think the Delta/Carter combo was and is a really good machine that won't get replaced. 

Another factor for me is my age and situation. Just about to turn 70 and making pretty healthy money, so I'm not willing to wait very long to get the tools, accessories and other things that contribute to quality production. I want to have a fully equipped shop without waiting since realistically, my time on Earth is getting shorter all the time. I want to be able to produce good work for a long time before I kick off and that takes good tools. If I'd started much younger I'd be more patient in acquiring tools, but I'd also emphasize quality as much as possible. If I had a bigger shop, I'd indulge in a better table saw, although the Delta T350 I have is amazingly accurate and fits in the shop neatly with a removable outfeed table. 

Good discussion topic, and after reading other posts, I guess the response to your question is somewhat dependent on the situation the woodworker is in.


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## Camero68 (Jun 27, 2012)

I can go cheap but not dangerously cheap. For me, it depends if a cheaper tool can do the job. If it can’t, time to save up.


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## Red Stick (Sep 7, 2011)

There have been several very great replies to this question. Reviews of actual users is certainly great information. But I can add one point that has not been directly made. My wife wanted to get into scroll saw work. I do lots of other woodwork, but scroll saws were not in my life. So when we looked into scroll saws we found them from about $100 (?) to at least $1,000; quite a range! The review that made our decision was this: A guy wanted to get into scroll saws but didn't know if he would like it. So he bought an entry level machine. His experience was so bad that he decided that he didn't want to work with scroll saws. Several years later he was at a friends place and had the opportunity to work with a decent scroll saw. It was so much better that he got back into scroll sawing. Just one example, but it had to do with a more solid machine that did not vibrate so bad, easier disconnect/reconnect of the blade (a constant requirement for most scroll saw projects), etc. So, we bought the Dewalt mid-range model (which was pretty highly regarded by most reviewers). Not the most expensive, but not the cheapest either. My wife loves it and has done some incredible intarsia as well as lots & lots of more mundane projects. Brand name is of some importance but the reviews sold us and the decision is not regretted. Hope this helps you.


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Exactly Keith. Every once in a while I need a scroll saw for a project but I do not get involved with the fancy stuff. I bought an old Craftsman model for $25 at a flea market and made a dust blower from an old nebulizer. Total investment with a set of new blades, about $30. I only use this for very fine cuts I can't get with my band saw. It would drive anyone crazy trying to use this for intarsia work but it was the right choice for my needs.


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## GulfcoastGuy (Feb 27, 2012)

I'm blown away by the response to the topic. I guess it wasn't as lame as I had feared. One point that I agree with is that regardless of the price, a tool must perform the primary function up to minimum standards. You can't learn anything good with something that just won't perform and as Keith pointed out it may give a wrong impression of the tool category and deprive you of what might otherwise be a good experience. The obvious question that arises is how does the newbie know what the minimum standard of performance actually is? I guess that's at least one of the reasons that we're all here.

I tend to rely on user reviews heavily for just about everything from tools to appliances to aquarium supplements. I've learned you need to "read between the lines" a little to glean the most relevant info. For instance: I don't give much weight to the 5 star reviews that are clearly someone who just bought the item and haven't gotten over the honeymoon with their brand new shiny dohicky. The frantic 1 star blasts that are obvious knee jerk reactions to some infant mortality failure are also on my cull list. I've worked in manufacturing long enough to know that happens even to the best companies. I look for the critical reviews reflecting some sustained use that point out specific issues and what it took to resolve them if it was attempted. I'll also scan the entries for recurring themes such as the binding and stripping of knife screws on my new planer. It should also be noted that as a product matures upgrades can occur as a response to known failures or weak points. Scanning the review list for dates and any apparent change in tone can be an indication that earlier complaints have been addressed and may not be currently valid. 

On power tools, especially large investment floor tools or even the lesser priced bench-top counterparts, it seems clear that pursuing quality, be it new at a price or used for a bargain, is paramount. (I like new, I've been saved by a warranty too many times ... but that's me) Let's face it poor quality power tools are just too risky both in function and more importantly, safety.

Thanks for all the feedback.

GCG


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Patrick; the flip side of your new vs old for _me_ is that every time I've succumbed to the lure of a bargain used machine, I've been burned. I avoid them like the plague.


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## mgmine (Jan 16, 2012)

I'm from but the best you can afford camp but (and this is a big but) it depends on what the tool is. As an example in my younger years I bought a set of sockets for $5 dollars. The first time I used them I rounded off a bolt and spent 6 hours trying to repair my mistake. I leaned two things. First was to avoid cheap wrenches and second was to only buy six point sockets. If a tool is being bought for the long term and will be used often such as a table saw then but the best cast iron you can afford. You won't remember 10 years from now or even a year from now that you spent an additional few hundred dollars or maybe even an extra $1000. If you have the room buy a good used cabinet saw rather than a cheaper new contractor type saw. For that matter buy as many used tools as you can find. Older tools are often made in the USA and will outlast the Chinese junk by decades. If you are not sure how often you will use the tool then I would still go for the gold and sell it if if you find that you don't use it. You will lose some money but not as much as you will if you have to buy twice. One other thing about cheap tools. Sometimes they are so inaccurate that you end up not even wanting to use them. A Harbor Freight 14" bandsaw or a 10" table top model would be a good example. As for building a good tool collection when you need a tool get it, don't try to do a work around. Router bits are a good example. If you need to do a bead then get a beading bit for $15 dollars you'll always have it.


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## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

mgmine said:


> One other thing about cheap tools. Sometimes they are so inaccurate that you end up not even wanting to use them. A Harbor Freight 14" bandsaw or a 10" table top model would be a good example.


In what way are they inaccurate? Have you actually owned one? Most band saws are as good as the blade used and the setup accuracy. Also Chinese products are as good or as bad as the quality control of whomever the buyer may be. Those who have QC people in the factory usually can get quality products.. those who don't.. well...! Made in USA does not insure quality either.. remember the Chevy Vega?

"The Best" is usually very subjective. It also depends on the particular task at hand. What is best for one job may not be best for the next. I would not buy a 3hp cabinet saw to carry to a job site. Nor would I buy a direct drive table top unit to build cabinets in my shop!

If a tool gets the job done safely and easily, the cost is reasonable(Festool is never an option to me!), and it has a reasonable life expectancy, then it is a good buy!

Sometimes buying is not even a good option.. I used a commercial Hitachi hammer drill and 4inch hole saw a while back to drill a hole in a concrete wall. The drill costs about $1500 and the hole saw about $400. Needless to say I rented them. At about $35 rental and one time use for about 10 minutes, it was the best option!

We can argue about "best" all we want, but it really doesn't get us anywhere. What is "best" for me may not be "best" for you! And since this is a router forum.. can't have too many anyway!


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## mgmine (Jan 16, 2012)

In what way are they inaccurate? Have you actually owned one? Most band saws are as good as the blade used and the setup accuracy. Also Chinese products are as good or as bad as the quality control of whomever the buyer may be. Those who have QC people in the factory usually can get quality products.. those who don't.. well...! Made in USA does not insure quality either.. remember the Chevy Vega?
True QC comes into play especially with the Chinese tools and no I have not owned a Harbor Freight band saw but I have seen one and can say that I was not impressed with it nor would I consider buying one. Their tools are cheap for a reason, and the reason is that they are made cheap. If their band saw was good it would sell for what a Delta, Powermatic or Rikon sell for, These saws are unfortunately made in China.Don't get me wrong have some HF tools but mostly the hand tools such as their clamps. The one power tool I have is their Multi tool which I got because it was on sale for $15 dollars. I am now in the market for a good one like a Fein after seeing what the possibilities are. The idea behind the tool is fantastic but the HF one just doesn't have enough power to do what it should be capable of doing. Another of my HF mistakes was a 3/4" buffer for about $75 dollars. The casing on the motor was huge and impressive but as soon as you pushed a piece of metal to it it would bog down. This was $75 dollars down the drain. I ended up with a 25 year old Baldor that will still be going strong after another 25 years. I got this one off of Craigs list for $75 dollars. Bottom line is you pretty much get what you pay for. It took me over 50 years to realize this but by now most of my mistakes are sitting in either a land fill or someone else basement drawer gathering dust.


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## Fishinbo (Jun 11, 2012)

As a newbie, I would go for the less expensive ones. Upgrading my skills would necessarily mean upgrading my tools.


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## Neil Tsubota (Mar 20, 2010)

*Tools are just "extentions" of your hands....*

Hello,

This is GREAT advice Patrick.

I look at tools as "extensions" of my hands.

The price of a tool is minor compared to the loss of my hands, eyes, brain, so I will not intentionally do something to harm my body.

I know my limitations, and I know that somedays, I just should do paper-work, or design work. (It is STILL work....)

The management consultant Tom Peters observed a wood cutting contest between an old sawyer, and a young sawyer. The young sawyer rushed to his saw placed it on the tree and started cutting. The old man walked to his saw, took out a file, sharpened the teeth on his saw then started cutting....

Guess who won this contest ?

The morale of the story is.....

(you fill in this blank here)




MAFoElffen said:


> Patrick.
> 
> I've been there (and still am on a limited/fixed budget). Low cost tools, cheap or frugal. I've certainly made some mistakes thinking I can buy something to get by... and later regreted it in some ways.
> 
> ...


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Art, most power tools are built in Asia now. One exception to this is the Delta Unisaw which is being made in the US again; pity it took a Chinese company owning Delta for this to happen. Quality control is the key and the big name brands invested good money to make it happen, even in China.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Fishinbo said:


> As a newbie, I would go for the less expensive ones. Upgrading my skills would necessarily mean upgrading my tools.


Ah yes, but the assumption there is that the lower price is based on less _ features_.
In practice, what goes first is the quality. Sintered bearings instead of ball/needle bearings. Pot metal instead of steel. Aluminum sheet instead of steel. Smaller motors (lower HP). Plastic instead of metal. Stamped parts instead of forged. Etc.
You can grow into a better machine but there's no where to go with a piece of c***.
By buying the low end stuff you/we just encourage the producers of the soon-to-be scrap stuff.
A lot of our older members will remember when the Japanese put their foot down on the production of junk, and went to the Japanese standards model, in the early '60s if I recall(?). I can't remember it's exact name but they worked wonders with the Japanese economy.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Words to live by:
Chapter 6, Section 1: History of Japan's Quality Movement


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## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

And nowadays Dan, much of the "Japanese" stuff is made in China and elsewhere as well!


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## TRBaker (Jul 5, 2012)

Patrick, I make my living with my tools and I still struggle with these same questions every time I want to buy a tool. Some of them, like stationary equipment, I consider buying a better/best quality because they get a lot of use and the only time they break down is when you are using them. If they are cheap models, they can leave me hanging at just the wrong time.

I found that with hand-held power tools, I can sometimes buy "disposable" tools and afford to have a back-up sitting in the tool box. For instance, I use cordless drills a LOT.
None of the batteries seemed to last more than a year, no matter who made it. When I went to buy a battery, I could often buy a new tool, with two batteries and a charger, for the price of two replacement batteries. I started buying the cheaper cordless stuff for that reason. However....I love my Hitachi cordless, and it isn't cheap, but the small compact design allows me to work inside tight spaces easier. 

I only buy the absolute best I can afford when it comes to hand tools. That doesn't mean I get to buy what I want. I can't afford what I want. The thing is, if you buy a cheap block plane or chisel, you spend more time trying to get them sharp than you do working with them. You get what you pay for.

Saw blades...you pay for the amount of carbide that is on the blade. The bigger the teeth, the more they can be resharpened. The trade-off is with the kerf size, so I do have a few thin kerf blades for special applications.

Just thought I'd put my two cents in.


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## bosox (Jun 12, 2012)

In my own preference, it would be good and right to recommend the new comers to buy tools or blades with lesser price. Expected, that being a newbie in any aspect gives you the most vulnerability to mistakes that could cause damages to machines or tools. To lessen the cost of the damage and for practicality, using lesser priced items with reasonable quality could be the best approach. Surely in time, experience will teach those newbies how to do the right thing. They will start to look for new things to handle and sort things out on their own. They will soon find out what works for them and what doesn’t.


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## GulfcoastGuy (Feb 27, 2012)

TRBaker said:


> ...I found that with hand-held power tools, I can sometimes buy "disposable" tools and afford to have a back-up sitting in the tool box. For instance, I use cordless drills a LOT.
> None of the batteries seemed to last more than a year, no matter who made it. When I went to buy a battery, I could often buy a new tool, with two batteries and a charger, for the price of two replacement batteries. I started buying the cheaper cordless stuff for that reason. However....I love my Hitachi cordless, and it isn't cheap, but the small compact design allows me to work inside tight spaces easier.
> ...


Troy you hit on part of what I was getting at. You found the frugal route to your need in cordless tools with the exception being a particular aspect (size) which was satisfied at cost. You probably didn't mind replacing the "cheaper" version for the Hitachi but what kind of buyer's remorse would you have suffered if you had previously purchased a "larger" higher priced model? And you are a professional. I can see this playing out over and over for the hobbyist especially if he or she is new to the craft.

GCG


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## TomB19 (Jun 27, 2011)

mgmine said:


> True QC comes into play especially with the Chinese tools and no I have not owned a Harbor Freight band saw but I have seen one and can say that I was not impressed with it nor would I consider buying one.


I've seen that bandsaw and it looks the same as the Delta/King/other brands. It would surprise me if they turn out to be built in different factories because they are so identical. I passed on all of them.

Instead, I picked up a Grizzly. I like this bandsaw a lot. It doesn't seem to be much better than the Chinese clones everyone is selling. In fact, it probably comes from the same factory. The thing is, sometimes a small improvement goes a long way. I feel this is the case here.

On the other hand, some of the cheapest Chinese bandsaws are cranking out work that is better than what I'm doing so it's tough to make a case for my decision based on quality of work.

A lot of what it comes down to, for me, is impatience and not wanting to deal with nagging shortcomings of a tool, even if they are minor. I'm fortunate to have a white collar career that allows me to be a tool snob but I wouldn't suggest it is reflected in the quality of my work in a significant way.

To each their own, as far as I'm concerned.


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Jack, this is why when I suggest a router to new members I offer the Craftsman combo at $100 or less on sale and the Bosch 1617EVSPK at about $189. There is a big difference in price between these two models. One is a home owner grade and the other an industrial grade. Depending on how much use the router will get is the deciding factor. Some people prefer to purchase two Craftsman kits instead of the one Bosch kit. No single choice is right for everyone. Both are good deals and perform well.


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## Baldric (Aug 5, 2012)

I buy quality middle of the range tools,I get a lot of satisfaction out of them,
and they last for years. old sayings (no one regreted buying quality) and you get what you pay for!


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## bosox (Jun 12, 2012)

Mike said:


> Jack, this is why when I suggest a router to new members I offer the Craftsman combo at $100 or less on sale and the Bosch 1617EVSPK at about $189. There is a big difference in price between these two models. One is a home owner grade and the other an industrial grade. Depending on how much use the router will get is the deciding factor. Some people prefer to purchase two Craftsman kits instead of the one Bosch kit. No single choice is right for everyone. Both are good deals and perform well.


Perfect, Mike! Price isn’t the prime factor in choosing a tool/ machine. But I’m not saying that deciding what tool to choose without looking at the price tag is wise. Usage comes on top, price’s next.


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## TomB19 (Jun 27, 2011)

This thread makes me think of the amazing projects I've seen (kitchens, furniture, etc.) that have been done with a plastic bench top table saw and a jig saw (or some combination of modest, department store quality, tools. It is absolutely staggering how some people can build tremendous quality projects using tools that I wouldn't dream of using to build the same projects. There are some amazing people out there. For some, I think it's a bit of a game to see how well they can do with the least amount of equipment possible. For me, I'm a tool collector and connoisseur more than a woodworker. lol!


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## packattack (Mar 6, 2012)

*What is more important?*



Mike said:


> Jack, this is why when I suggest a router to new members I offer the Craftsman combo at $100 or less on sale and the Bosch 1617EVSPK at about $189. There is a big difference in price between these two models. One is a home owner grade and the other an industrial grade. Depending on how much use the router will get is the deciding factor. Some people prefer to purchase two Craftsman kits instead of the one Bosch kit. No single choice is right for everyone. Both are good deals and perform well.



So, Mike..since I am in the market for a new router (mine broke )...

What is more important, the router or the bit being used? Based on what I have been reading on these forums I gather the bit and the speed of cut make or break the quality of the work. Should I be thrifty with the router and splurge on the bit? Or does it matter?


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Mike said:


> Art, most power tools are built in Asia now. One exception to this is the Delta Unisaw which is being made in the US again; pity it took a Chinese company owning Delta for this to happen. Quality control is the key and the big name brands invested good money to make it happen, even in China.


So a Chinese company buys an American company that was outsourcing to China... and outsources from China back to the U.S.A.?

*** --- ***
The jist of all this seems to be "we" try to buy through research, needs and budget. Important factors in that research are functionality and "_Value_". Our collective experience good or bad, shared, is a tool for other's personal research to help them make an informed decision.

I was alway taught "It's _hard_ to do quality work with tools that are not." But that is really objective / hard to pin down.

Remember when Black and Decker made "real" heavy duty industrial power tools? Then a budget brand. Skil, same. Rockwell, same. On and on. In the trades, when Porter Cable was the line to buy. Then Makita. Then Dewalt. Then Bosch. And on. Even within brands, some models shine, others just fall on their face.

I use my tools, allot. Allot of my tools do wear out. Some I can get rebuilt. Some I can't get rebuilt. Some are cheaper to buy new than rebuild them!!!

But for me, I have to ask myself some questions first:
- "Is this tool going to make me money?" Is it going to pay for itself on this job or later jobs?
- "Can I do the job with the tools I have?" If yes, am I struggling to get it done, using work-around's to get quality with what I have?
- "Will this tool add functionality and capabilities that I don't currently have?"
- "Will this tool make things faster and easier than with the tools I have?" If so, it's going to make me money.
- "Is this tool rebuildable or a throw-away?" Are parts going to be available? Is is cost effective to rebuild?

I know that may be different than considerations for a hobbiest. They have to fit into the picture of things. I would love to own a Laguna Cabinet Table Saw. In my mind, it is my current idea of the "best." But that is a Lotto dream kind of thing. I can't afford it. In reality, I can't justify the cost. I couldn't get enough work for it to pay for itself. Nor could I afford to expand my garage or to build a shop to have room for it's sliding table.

Now if I take an individual table saw. Know it's own capabilities and limitations. Tune it to be the best it's going to be (or a lot of times better than new.) Then I can accept it for what it is, from the class it's from, without regrets. Then I'm not cursing myself that it's a far cry from being a Laguna Table Saw. That follow's suit for the other tools I have.

"Here" we have a review section. That's good for people's reference. We don't have a collectively ageed recommended startup kind of tool list. I don't know if that's even possible. Each one of us have our own tastes and preferences. We do seem to agree that a tool needs to be safe, functional and have some kind of redeeming value.


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## GulfcoastGuy (Feb 27, 2012)

packattack said:


> So, Mike..since I am in the market for a new router (mine broke )...
> 
> What is more important, the router or the bit being used? Based on what I have been reading on these forums I gather the bit and the speed of cut make or break the quality of the work. Should I be thrifty with the router and splurge on the bit? Or does it matter?


I'd be particularly interested in how your opinion may change depending on the experience and skill level of the end user.

GCG


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

GulfcoastGuy said:


> I'd be particularly interested in how your opinion may change depending on the experience and skill level of the end user.
> 
> GCG


Pat-
Are you asking me or the other Mike?

If asking me: Just like entry carpenters that I've worked with or worked for me- low skill level, no experience, a mid-grade router with a 1/4" collet. Mid-grade carbide bit set. A high-end router if the price is right. Replace bits they wear out with high-ends.

Experienced. Higher end industrial quality router with a 1/2" collet. Higher end bit set.

... and for both it varies on what they doing/making. Some bits don't come in 1/4". And even if they did 1/4" routers are going to be hard pressed driving large bits.

Actually, when I worked as an apprentice carpenter for a custom home builder, all the specialty bits where owned/bought by the owner we worked for. He bought me a craftsman router (1/4"), *which came out in payments out of my check*. That's how a lot of my tools early on came to me. On routers, as our skills built up we were expected to buy a good 1/2" router of our own. We could see which bits we used most and bought our own bits so we didn't have to walk to the tool area to get one, nor had to wait on someone else to finish with one. We learned from the master carpenter (owner), because he didn't want his tools messed up and it was his jobs we were doing. We also learned by a whole lot of doing. He singled me out to learn and make cabinets and high end fireplace mantels. For that I am very thankful. I learned a lot from him and he seemed to enjoy teaching me.

By the time I was working for him as a master carpenter and later finished there, I had enough tools to work anywhere in my trade. Which then brought up a comment from my girlfriend the other night- "You have enough tools to build a complete house!" (her words) Well duh. I didn't quite know how to answer that without offending her. So I just didn't. I was speechless! (This comes up when I tell her I need to buy this one bit or another tool.)

For Hobbiest, they don't necessarily need something heavy duty industrial strength. It'll last them a lifetime (true), but the cost might be prohibitive, where a mid to high-end hobbiest type of router would last them. Not many Hobbiest are using a router 8 hours a day, 5 days a week. Heck, I'm a working carpenter and I don't. I spent more time on miter saws and table saws... then routers.

The balance to that, someone with skills might be able to take an inferior tool and make it work for them by cheating it, using work-arounds and support. It takes longer, more work (a whole lot of sanding!!!), a downright fight. Someone without skills and experience doesn't know how to overcome that and it is then overwhelming.

The post mentioned quality bits doing a better job. If the router it's in is not supporting it, IMHO it's not going to do that quality job. The foundation's just not there for it. EX: You can put a 180 dollar Forrest 100 tooth crosscut finish saw blade on an arbor with backlash (loose bearings) and the cut is going to look like a dull 24 tooth rip blade. (besides burning up the blade) Yet, I have cut glue-edges on my cabinet saw with a 24 tooth rip blade in dense hardwood.

Boy Pat, I can see this thread you started as being a hot topic for a long time. A very good topic at that.


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

MAFoElffen said:


> I was alway taught "It's _hard_ to do quality work with tools that are not." But that is really objective / hard to pin down.


Mike, I'm with you there, but I'd add that it is more likely that an experienced user will produce an acceptable result on a poor tool than would a novice. You say as much in a later post



MAFoElffen said:


> But for me, I have to ask myself some questions first:
> - "Is this tool going to make me money?" Is it going to pay for itself on this job or later jobs?
> - "Can I do the job with the tools I have?" If yes, am I struggling to get it done, using work-around's to get quality with what I have?
> - "Will this tool add functionality and capabilities that I don't currently have?"
> ...


With you 100% of the way there.



MAFoElffen said:


> Just like entry carpenters that I've worked with or worked for me- low skill level, no experience, a mid-grade router with a 1/4" collet. Mid-grade carbide bit set. A high-end router if the price is right. Replace bits they wear out with high-ends.
> 
> Experienced. Higher end industrial quality router with a 1/2" collet. Higher end bit set.
> 
> ... and for both it varies on what they doing/making. Some bits don't come in 1/4". And even if they did 1/4" routers are going to be hard pressed driving large bits.


Once again sage words. I can but agree with them



MAFoElffen said:


> ....a comment from my girlfriend the other night- "You have enough tools to build a complete house!" (her words) Well duh. I didn't quite know how to answer that without offending her. So I just didn't. I was speechless! (This comes up when I tell her I need to buy this one bit or another tool.)


So it's not just me that gets those comments! I even get them from other tradesmen who don't understand my need for a $500 laser instead of their $150 model - until they need to do something their basic cross line models can't do (pretty regular on some jobs)

What I would say is all in agreement with Mike. The "best" tool for the job isn't always the "best" tool made - it should be the most _appropriate_ in terms of user experience, capability, durability and life expectancy. That means that even I am known to buy cheap Chinese tools from time to time as the need arises

Regards

Phil


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

Phil,



> What I would say is all in agreement with Mike. The "best" tool for the job isn't always the "best" tool made - it should be the most appropriate in terms of user experience, capability, durability and life expectancy. That means that even I am known to buy cheap Chinese tools from time to time as the need arises


I believe that is a great summary of the thread . Agree 100%.


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## GulfcoastGuy (Feb 27, 2012)

MAFoElffen said:


> Pat-
> Are you asking me or the other Mike?


Actually it was the other Mike ...

Here -


Mike said:


> Jack, this is why when I suggest a router to new members I offer the Craftsman combo at $100 or less on sale and the Bosch 1617EVSPK at about $189. There is a big difference in price between these two models. One is a home owner grade and the other an industrial grade. Depending on how much use the router will get is the deciding factor. Some people prefer to purchase two Craftsman kits instead of the one Bosch kit. No single choice is right for everyone. Both are good deals and perform well.


...but I enjoyed your reply. It's good to hear from a broad range of folks.




MAFoElffen said:


> Boy Pat, I can see this thread you started as being a hot topic for a long time. A very good topic at that.


Thanks ... but it's just 'cus I'm a skinflint that wants the best bang for a buck ... or an hour of my time ... which could be a good tangent to explore.

One of the the worst dressings down I ever recieved was when a boss caught me making a 9-pin serial cable out of parts. He pointed out how much he was paying me and how much of his money I was spending and then showed me how much it cost to just buy one. I felt like an idiot. The point is there's saving money and then there's saving money. ... Thoughts?

GCG


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## greenacres2 (Dec 23, 2011)

Patrick's "cable" story makes a great point, and illustrates a difference between professional woodworker and hobbyist. Contractors scrap a certain amount of usable material because the labor cost involved in saving it is more than it's worth. As a hobbyist--i spend the time to save it 'cuz i can afford the minutes it takes. I've not done much dumpster diving at construction sites--but it's on my list of cheap places to reclaim lumber!!

Phil P makes a great point on experience--As far as quality tools is concerned--i've heard some great guitar players make $75 acoustics sound pretty good, but i've got a couple of pretty nice instruments that my lack of rhythm will never do justice to. I appreciate them, and we're blessed to be their stewards...but i couldn't possibly justify why we have the good stuff!! I think the same could be said of a lot of WW tools.

I've spent the past year learning about and accumulating WW tools. I've been able to be patient and by using Craigslist, e-bay, local newspapers and dumb luck i've managed to gather some pretty good quality equipment that i couldn't have afforded at new prices. There isn't much i've picked up that i couldn't recoup my money on, yet at the same time there isn't much i'd need to "trade up" on either. So...it's been a good year from that respect. Bought my first Bosch 1617 fixed/plunge for $80 practically unused--the second one is one of the few new tools i've bought--and did so willingly. 

My take--quality helps, but there's a reasonable limit somewhere. For me, i've been able to spend less dough and invest a little sweat to build a nice shop. I'll not get to the level that some (MAFoEllfen for example) have on rebuilding, but my $50 RAS on the stand i built is now clean and cuts very accurately!!!

Thanks for the education!!


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Patrick; reminds me of the guy I worked with when we started doing renos (1970's).
He was obsessed with salvaging nails and reusing them. Drove me crazy!
I didn't know which was worse; trying to drive a nail he'd pulled, or trying to do the same with the limp Chinese cr*p that was being flogged by the lumberyards (into 70 year old D. Fir framing...hard as stone.)


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## TRBaker (Jul 5, 2012)

I totally agree, Dan. The law of diminishing returns has to kick in sometimes and bring us back to reality.


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## rwl7532 (Sep 8, 2011)

I agree with the post about 5star and 1star reviews. Throw out the highs that are still in the honeymoon phase and throw out the 1stars from the guy who has a complaint or a standard that no manufacturer can met. Read lots of reviews.

I'll end with a story of how I bought a single pocket size level. It was about $1.50 or so years ago. I grabbed about 7 of them from the bin - they weren't in the fancy bubble displays like they are now. And I grabbed a big long $120 level and laid it on the floor. One by one, I laid each of the seven cheap levels on top of the big expensive level. I bought the cheap level that agreed exactly with the big one. I still have it today. 

Reading lots of reviews is sort of like that big expensive level - something you can compare to and with.


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## demographic (Aug 12, 2012)

This is more of a comment about the quality of tools available in the UK than something that works across the board but...

If I'm looking for corded powertools I tend to go for 110 volt (I mostly work on building sites) or even on the occasions when I want 230 volt tools I make sure there's an option of being able to buy the same tool in 110. 
I've noticed that any corded tool that is also available in 110 is generally rated for at least trade use.

I'm quite lucky in that there's a very good local secondhand tool sales barn that has a lot of old woodworking hand tools. Every once in a while I pick good quality British made hand tools up for a song.

Some things I don't spend much on, for instance I have a good set of chisels and a beater set which I don't mind removing old windows with or lending to the plumber.
Best metal detectors known to mankind is a plumber with MY best chisel, guaranteed to find nails with every strike

Tools I have regretted buying... 
Black & Decker jigsaw.
Green Bosch power planer.
Makita twin pack of drill drivers with the red NiCad batteries.

Tools I haven't regretted buying?

Lots, my current line up seems pretty stable and doesn't change much.
Cordless drills don't often last much longer than about two years but now I also have a Hitachi impact screwgun I assume my 18 volt Makita combi drill driver will last better.
As far as I see it, anyone who gets more than maybe three years (I think I'm being quite charitable there as well fith that figure) out of a cordless drill driver without needing to buy batteries just can't be using it much.
My Veritas low angle adjustable mouth block plane is a pleasure to use and so far every other item I have bought from them has been upto that same standard.

As yet I've not bought any Festool gear and although its really nice I can't see that its more than twice as good as everything else to justify its extra cost.
The boxes they come in look handy though.


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Hi Scott



demographic said:


> Best metal detectors known to mankind is a plumber with MY best chisel, guaranteed to find nails with every strike


:sarcastic:



demographic said:


> As yet I've not bought any Festool gear and although its really nice I can't see that its more than twice as good as everything else to justify its extra cost.


If you don't ahve a rail saw and you do a lot of in-situ straight cutting you should look into them. Big plus is no clean-up - it's how I trim doors these days. I have a Festool, although I could equally have bought a Makita, deWalt, Mafell or Bosch (and now Metabo) - but then as a former Hilti rail/plunge saw user I was already sold on the concept.



demographic said:


> The boxes they come in look handy though.


VERY! Also very expensive! Take a look at Tanos Systainers on Bunny's Bolts or the main German Tanos site (Tanos are a sister firm to Festool). The fact that they clip together is a real boon - I can carry a saw, planer and cutters in one hand. The concept must be good - both Bosch and DW are now making their own takes on it

Regards

Phil


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## demographic (Aug 12, 2012)

Phil P said:


> If you don't ahve a rail saw and you do a lot of in-situ straight cutting you should look into them. Big plus is no clean-up - it's how I trim doors these days. I have a Festool, although I could equally have bought a Makita, deWalt, Mafell or Bosch (and now Metabo) - but then as a former Hilti rail/plunge saw user I was already sold on the concept.
> 
> 
> VERY! Also very expensive! Take a look at Tanos Systainers on Bunny's Bolts or the main German Tanos site (Tanos are a sister firm to Festool). The fact that they clip together is a real boon - I can carry a saw, planer and cutters in one hand. The concept must be good - both Bosch and DW are now making their own takes on it
> ...


I've been looking at an American guide rail system recently cos lets face it, the price for Festool is a bit salty, seems its got a similar guide rail with anti splinter plastic edge that you cut to exact size with the first cut.
Quite a significant part of my work involves ripping full sheets so whatever system I go for has to be as long or just slightly longer than eight foot. 
Those things in Machine mart that are about a metre long are about as much use as a chocolate fireguard to me.

Main difference THIS* has over Festool, Bosch, De-Walt and whoever else is that I can use other brand circular saws, even routers it seems.
I'm not keen on being locked into using a particular brand of saw.
I've already got two circular saws that work well, just need a decent guiderail for them.
I can't find a UK dealer for them though so will have to see how much it would cost to get one over here.
That said, I have used a Festool saw and their guiderail system a while ago and it was very nice indeed. 

In the past I have made several guiderails of the couple of rippings of ply screwed and glued together variety and the saw cuts the line through the bottom section of ply on its first use so it lessens splintering. 
Using them I don't need to account for offset between the edge of the saw and the blade (about 30mm for my small Hitachi and 40 on my large Hitachi depending on which side of the blade I'm cutting to).
Problem with those is that they are generally eight foot long and a not the handiest things to have in the van. If they could be taken down and put back together they would be spot on.
I've made them on several sites but usually chuck them when I leave cos take up too much space in the van.

I'm going to get more info in the American system I've seen and see how I get on.

I have one single Bosch L box that I found in a skip at work (I use it to hold my de-Walt compact router with fixed base) but without several more boxes its no better nor worse than the other mismatched stack of boxes in my van toolsafe.


*I have no connection to the company whatsoever and other usual disclaimers yada yada yada.


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Scott- 

Same with me here, when I'm out on a jobsite.

When I don't want to setup my jobsite TS, I do as you with 3/8" ply and straight 3/4"x3" for an edge to push on. I use 8' and 4' guides. I use the heck out of the 4 footer... And only seem to use the 8 footer on occasion.

I've seen the aluminum guides with the plastic edge over here. I don't see where I'd gain anything over what I use now.

There's another out with a groove in the guide and a miter bar type of attachment that screws to the saw's deck. Opted out on that as then you lose any use of it out of the guide!

Phil-
I don't know what carpenters get paid over in the UK or if the Festool prices are lower there there, but an average carpenter at average carpenter wages over here cannot afford a Festool Rail Saw. Besides that, then there are other economics. The blades are not as plentiful here, nor are alternative blades as available here as there. Here, you hit some nails or a sand pocket, you don't just go to the closest hardware and find a blade that will fit a Festool.

We could order them... We can still buy the Festool Rail Saw if we can afford them. But, at least to me, it's more like having that system here is more of a specialty kind of thing.


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

MAFoElffen said:


> Scott-
> 
> Same with me here, when I'm out on a jobsite.
> 
> ...


Sorry.

I re-read my last post. What I wrote yesterday, the tone sounded off from what I meant it to be. I am honest and sincere about that. The tone could have taken as coming out a bit condescending, when it was really that of frustration at myself, learned from some of my past tool purchases.

As it relates to this thread, another consideration of the tools I buy that I didn't mention before is whether it's supportable. It's all good and well to buy a tool that has good quality and lot's of capabilities... But if you can't readily buy expendables (bits and blades) or repair parts for it, it makes it hard to justify it's purchase and use.

I have saws, nailguns and other tools that I used to use regularly on jobsites, that now stay home on the shelf. I don't know why I still even keep them as they are useless to me now and I can't justify their existence in my kit:
- they take a blade that is no-longer available.
- they take blades that are now rare, so now very expensive and have to be ordered.
- they used nail clips that the pattern (offsets and clip-heads) are no longer made.
- they are broken and parts are no longer available or never were really available.
- etc...

For instance, I really like one of the circular saws. It was good for trimming beams and glue-lam's. Great for decks and other outside types of structures. It used a 8 1/4" inch blade with a 1 1/8" inch round arbor with 7/8" flats. Sort of an oddball. No blades available for it any longer, from anywhere in the world. 

I checked into having some blades punched, just to be able to continue using it... Cost is as much for punching the arbor hole than for the cost for blade itself. 

I checked into having a different arbor made that would be a standard diamond cutout- over $150 at a machine shop... Blades with a diamond knockout, comparable to the size, tooth pattern and angles that I was using with that before are now over $60 each... they were $14 before. So it sits. 

I do have a beam-saw chain-saw attachment for it, so it could get some rare occasional use... If I didn't have 4 chainsaws that do a better job at that.


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## TRBaker (Jul 5, 2012)

Mike, maybe you can tell me why I have twenty-five framing nailers on the shelf in my shop that no longer work or the nails they shoot no longer meet code. For the life of me, I can't figure it out.


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## rwl7532 (Sep 8, 2011)

TRBaker said:


> Mike, maybe you can tell me why I have twenty-five framing nailers on the shelf in my shop that no longer work or the nails they shoot no longer meet code. For the life of me, I can't figure it out.


Craigslist only came relatively lately?


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

rwl7532 said:


> Craigslist only came relatively lately?


That is hilarious!



TRBaker said:


> Mike, maybe you can tell me why I have twenty-five framing nailers on the shelf in my shop that no longer work or the nails they shoot no longer meet code. For the life of me, I can't figure it out.


Working? Because a lot of tool repair shops do no think outside the box for parts. Bearings are available world-wide in all sizes... not just from a tool vendor. For air nailers, the same is true for O-Rings. I usually get mine through a local industrial hydraulics supplier. 

The second thing that goes wrong with a nailer is when you have too much moisture being carried from air compressor (pitting in the cylinder) or too little gun oil (scraping or galling in the cylinder), which either will cause it to leak even with good o-ring. If you don't take care of that and it sealed, then the new o-ring will wear out fast. If it is light, sometimes it can be polished out.

Third most common is when "someone" knocks your gun off the second or third floor... and the magazine gets bent on the re-entry.

Nails not available? Yes I've been burned on that with both Hilti and Senco. I guess it was one of those things were early on there wasn't really a nail standard and everyone was vying for their own to be that standard. For framer's I finally went with a Hitachi NR83A2. That was an example where is was the industry standard that everyone was trying to be like, so I was fairly sure (still hoping) that nails were going to be available for it for awhile. I sucked it up and bought it and haven't had a problem with that since.

As for nails not meeting codes... grrr. Yes. I remember when could get around some of those... Such as in a certain piece that spec'ed out to be hand nailed flush- where we would adjust the depth 1/8" to 1/4" up and someone following with a framing hammer to send them home and leave a waffle. <-- Just to pass inspection.

But now with certain spec'ed nail types? Sore subject here. There certainly didn't used to be that many nail types in existence, let alone for guns. I remember when there was only 4 gun nail types, in various sizes. The county codes here are okay. But some of the local city codes that stack on top of those, is another story. (Especially Bellevue, WA) Keeping to the Hitachi, they are available for it... Pain in the ___ to have cases of nail types that are being stored / saved for just a certain purpose in a certain local.

We have to do what we "have" to do... to be able to do it. I figure being a little crazy and having a good sense of humor goes a long way in getting by.


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## TRBaker (Jul 5, 2012)

LOLOL Mike,
Don't get me started on the code thing. The guns on the shelf are actually so old that they aren't worth the time and money to fix, even if they did shoot the new nails. I'm with you...I use a Hitachi now. The others are made from boat anchors and are probably worth more at the scrap yard than when they were bought. At any rate, I'm not going to use a gun that weighs that much any more. Love my Hitachi angled finish nailer too.


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Hi Scott



demographic said:


> I've been looking at an American guide rail system recently cos lets face it, the price for Festool is a bit salty, seems its got a similar guide rail with anti splinter plastic edge that you cut to exact size with the first cut.
> Quite a significant part of my work involves ripping full sheets


I suppose that you're talking about Dino's product? With the Festool (or Makita, Bosch, deWalt, Metabo, Hilti, etc) you are really paying for the saw having a plunge mechanism, less for the rail..... Take it from me the rail saws are different, _better_, than the average site saw - despite what Dino says - and a guide rail dose not a Festool make 



demographic said:


> That said, I have used a Festool saw and their guiderail system a while ago and it was very nice indeed.


A number of guys I know use Makita SP6000Ks - available in the UK and about £100 cheaper than the Festool. Often comes with TWO 1400mm rails as well. As to use with a router - I've never found much use for that in more than TEN years of rail saw use. If you do need it, then Festool, Bosch (mark 1 rail - Bosch sell an older and a newer system which aren't compatible) and Makita rail adaptors are all interchangeable - something the makers don't want to tell you



demographic said:


> Problem with those is that they are generally eight foot long and a not the handiest things to have in the van. If they could be taken down and put back together they would be spot on.


I carry 2 x 1400mm rails and an 800mm rail in a single case plus joiners. Small enough to go across the back seat of my car if needs be, let alone in the van. The 800mm is handy for trimming doors to length (not 926mm DDA ones, though). The portability of rails is one of the major plusses of using a rail sytem



demographic said:


> I have one single Bosch L box that I found in a skip at work (I use it to hold my de-Walt compact router with fixed base) but without several more boxes its no better nor worse than the other mismatched stack of boxes in my van toolsafe.


There is no advantage in single boxes. The advantage come when you have multiple, compatible containers. Then having half a dozen tools in clip together boxes starts to make perfect sense - especially in the walk from the van to the site

Regards

Phil


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Hi Mike



MAFoElffen said:


> I don't know what carpenters get paid over in the UK or if the Festool prices are lower there


Festool prices here are pretty much the same as you pay - wages are just as rubbish, especially at the moment! One thing we have got is a good selection of alternative blade suppliers. For general work I use a low-cost 48 tooth ATB blade which comes in at around £23 ($35) - for high quality stuff I buy Atkinson-Walker blades at about £38 ($60). Festool blades are way too expensive for me! 160 or 165mm blades with 20mm bores are readily available - standard sizes from Bosch, Freud, Makita, etc. All of this makes plunge saw ownership a lot easier. I don't know how long my Festool will last, but my last plunge saw, a Hilti, did 10 years. 



MAFoElffen said:


> But, at least to me, it's more like having that system here is more of a specialty kind of thing.


There are some things they are good at - for example last night just before I finished I needed to cut about a dozen long shallow tapers in 3 different falls for the tiler as a last minute job. These needed to be bang on and I wasn't in the mood to spend time faffing about with battens or cleaning-up with a plane. With the Fes it was just a matter of pull the rails out, connect them, tick mark one end of the cut, plonk the rail on and cut. It took me under 10 minutes from unpacking the tool to putting it away. It required no cleaning up of the edge and the tapers were ready to go off the saw.

On the question of cost I had a hire specialist nailer last week - a Spit Pulsa 700 - to fix shadow battens (to masonry). Nice piece of kit and made the job much faster than screwing. Not sure I like the idea of paying £700 (US $ 1050) for one, though. makes a Festool look cheap

I've got to agree with you on the issues of availability and compatibility, but my work these days is predominently in interior fit-out (shop, bar, restaurant, hotel interiors, etc) and a rail saw for us guys is no longer a luxury. We don't do much timber framing in the UK, and I try to avoid roofs because I'm just getting a little long in the tooth for that sort of work, so the Festool has become a "star player" for me....

Regards

Phil


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

On the issue of spending on tools; my wife is a quilter and after rereading this thread, I did a little figuring and realized that my whole fairly well equipped workshop cost less than her quilting machines. She asked me once if I'd make any money with all those tools and I replied, "about as much as you'll make quilting." I smiled as I said that, but it has made it much easier to make purchases since then. Good tools are important in Quilting too.


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## demographic (Aug 12, 2012)

DesertRatTom said:


> On the issue of spending on tools; my wife is a quilter and after rereading this thread, I did a little figuring and realized that my whole fairly well equipped workshop cost less than her quilting machines. She asked me once if I'd make any money with all those tools and I replied, "about as much as you'll make quilting." I smiled as I said that, but it has made it much easier to make purchases since then. Good tools are important in Quilting too.


My wifes embroidery machine (computer controlled Bernina 7 series thing) cost more than any vehicle I've ever bought.


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## GulfcoastGuy (Feb 27, 2012)

So far the focus has been on how the cost or quality of a tool impacts the functional aspect. How about the enjoyment or personal satisfaction. I suppose this would be aimed more at the hobbyists among us but I would hope that it's an issue with the pro's as well.

At what point does cutting corners to save some bucks become a negative in that respect?

GCG


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## TRBaker (Jul 5, 2012)

Patrick, if you want to enter the realm of the most satisfiying experience, buy only the best.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Troy; but there's the catch! Defining what's "best". Is it features, material quality, machining precision, ease of use? Actual cost is important but shouldn't be the deciding factor.
In home appliances I avoid the top end models like the plague. Overpriced and overrated.
I don't need a washing machine that will decide for me what time of day to put the load through. In fact, that's a bloody obnoxious intrusion into my/our life style. 
Middle of the road works.


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## TRBaker (Jul 5, 2012)

LOLOLOL.....We can over anal ize this but the simple fact is, there are some things out there that are just better. Powermatic vs. Ryobi., Laguna vs. Rigid, Veritas vs. Harbor Freight. I guarantee you that there is real satisfaction in those higher quality brands and they all do the same thing....they cut wood in some fashion. There is a point in tool purchases when you leave the realm of the ho-hum and enter the world of smooth precision. I could spend an absolute fortune on tools that would give me a superior satisfaciton factor. In reality, I can only buy what I need, at the least price available.


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