# 220 extension cord for tools



## sgcz75b (Jan 8, 2019)

I have a 220 50 amp circuit in my shop for welding which I will use for my 220 bandsaw. Is there any reason not to make a 220 extension cord that would make it easier to change out plugs?

Maybe a gang box with a couple of plugs? I wouldn't be running two tools at a time, but the convenience would be great.

I'm sure someone here has done that so would you give me some tips?

Thanks.

Steve


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## ger21 (Feb 10, 2019)

As long as you use wire capable of handling 50 amps, then no problem.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

ger21 said:


> As long as you use wire capable of handling 50 amps, then no problem.


That’s the first thing that I thought . 

The wire in the extension cord would have to be rated for 50 amps as you mention, otherwise if a short occurred ,the breaker wouldn’t trip


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## Samandothers (Jan 24, 2019)

Voltage and current rating of cord should meet or exceed your current and voltage.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

I just did exactly what you want to do. I added a 20 amp plug wired from my welder plug. I only used 12 gauge wire and it's not a great idea but it's for my planer and I'll be standing next to it the whole time it's running so I think I can manage the risk. The best way to do what you suggest is to take the wire from the welder plug and run it into a sub panel. Some sub panels allow you to run a wire out that is direct and not fused. That could allow you to hook up to the welder again without going through another breaker other than the the one in the main panel. That would allow a 30 amp sub panel which could be used for the tools you want to run as none of them should be greater than 20 amps. That should be code compliant I think.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

RainMan 2.0 said:


> That’s the first thing that I thought .
> 
> The wire in the extension cord would have to be rated for 50 amps as you mention, otherwise if a short occurred ,the breaker wouldn’t trip


More to the point, the equipment at the business end is going to be seriously shortchanged on the voltage it needs to operate; expect the cable to get really hot and self destruct if the equipment is operating at near the rating of the breaker. #6-3 wire/grd...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/50-6-3-SOO...oor-Durable-Flexible-Wire-Cable-/273520619202


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## mjadams61 (Dec 24, 2015)

A friend of mine had the same issue so made a couple of short 2 ft extension 220volt cords. Same male end to fit the wall 220volt receptical but different female ends on the cords to fit the different 220 machines.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Charles; maybe a couple of inline fuses in a made-up junction box, plugged into the 50A receptacle?
https://www.amazon.ca/Etopars-Holde...=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=B0716JBMWJ


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## Knothead47 (Feb 10, 2010)

Good thread. What is the maximum length for such a cord? We are talking about a few feet here but curious. I know that regular cords have a limit before a voltage drop.


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## sgcz75b (Jan 8, 2019)

DaninVan said:


> More to the point, the equipment at the business end is going to be seriously shortchanged on the voltage it needs to operate; expect the cable to get really hot and self destruct if the equipment is operating at near the rating of the breaker. #6-3 wire/grd...
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/50-6-3-SOO...oor-Durable-Flexible-Wire-Cable-/273520619202


I'm not sure I understand so let me state what I have. It's a 50 amp breaker with a 220 outlet using an old welder outlet.









I've ordered a plug (50 amp) that matches the outlet receptacle. 









Now I need the wire and outlet receptacle (or receptacles) at the other end of the extension cord to plug in my 220 tools.

I see 25' welding extension cords on Amazon with 8 ga. wire, but of course, the plugs don't have the older style of my 220 receptacle.

I was hoping to get a 20-25' extension cord to be able to go outside my shop and work with a future planer or lathe.

Are you saying that if I plug a tool into an extension cord of 8 ga.wire that I could damage my tool?

Sorry, but electrical situations are not my area of expertise, so your help is appreciated. Pretend I know nothing about this situation so explain in simple terms.:laugh2:

Thanks.
Steve


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## OCEdesigns (Jan 31, 2019)

In simple terms as long as the extension cord is rated for 50 amps your equipment will be fine. I made a 10' and a 25' cord for my shop also. I have welders, and plasma cutter that I use all over.


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## sgcz75b (Jan 8, 2019)

OCEdesigns said:


> In simple terms as long as the extension cord is rated for 50 amps your equipment will be fine. I made a 10' and a 25' cord for my shop also. I have welders, and plasma cutter that I use all over.


Being the electrical simpleton that I am, I've got it! Thanks


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

The heavy gauge extension cord is an option. The code guide I use says that if a run is longer than 75 feet it's a good idea to go up one wire size. Although your welder plug is a 50 amp it is likely being fed with a 40 amp breaker. I've never figured out or heard a reason for this discrepancy. Truthfully I can't ever remember seeing a 50 amp breaker. Wire size for 40 amps is #8. If you have longer than 75 feet of total run you might consider going to #6 IF you intended to pull full load at the total distance. But the largest load you are likely to pull with a power tool that is portable enough to wheel out on your drive way is going to be 20 amps which would only require 12 gauge or on a really long run 10 gauge which is normally good for 30 amps. So an 8 gauge extension cord would be ample for any load you are going to put on it. As for adapting to different ends I wouldn't bother. I would just put the same end on the cord to all your tools, i.e. a 20 amp if that is the largest single load.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Pretty sure you don't want to run your equipment off a 50A or even a 40A breaker. For starters all the downstream components need to be sized for the size of the breaker. The issue being that an issue with a 15A tool won't trip the massively oversized breaker, no matter what the size of the cable. An actual short probably would pop it, _but I don't think you want to be part of the cct. if that happens!_.
50A at 220 v is going to be a memorable experience...if you actually survive it.
You need to have a short run of #6 into a 2pole mini panel with a 2 pole 15 or 20A breaker, then you can wire in a couple of duplex receptacles. Each leg of the 220V cct would feed a separate receptacle.
As I mentioned earlier you need *3wire plus ground #6 cable i*f it's a 50A cct. *The third wire is White and will be the Neutral for either side of your two 120Vccts.* In theory you shouldn't be using 220Vand 120V plugs on the same cct. as the load can theoretically be unbalanced. Maybe somebody can explain itbetter(?)

Red.......Phase 1. 120V
Black.....Phase 2. 120V
White....Neutral...return wire for the 120v ccts.
Green... mandatory! up to the receptacle, but not necessarily req'd by Double Insulated tools. Factory installed two prong plugs.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Re what Charles said; if it wasn't clear. The breaker determines the MINIMUM capacity of ALL components downstream but you can INCREASE the size of the components downstream up to the breakers' capacity.
For example; you can use 20 amp component on a 15 A breaker but you can't use 15A components on a 20A breaker. It's easier to just use the correct sizing. Some better quality receptacles will be *'15Amp-20Amp Rated'*///in other words the blade configuration will accept either male plug and the internal construction will be a lot more rugged.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

I probably muddied the water with that last one...
To clarify my own comment, If you _draw_ 20A on a 15A breaker it'll just pop it.
An example might be a portable compressor; they're notorious for popping 15A breakers, especially if you plug them into a general purpose wall receptacle which probably already has lights and stuff running on the cct.
ie you're definitely going to be over 15A on start up.


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## mjadams61 (Dec 24, 2015)

Are you planning on using that outlet for welding or anything that requires a 50amp breaker? If not you can always step down the breaker to the appropriate ampreage you need to run your bandsaw. It does not matter if the wire is bigger than you need but it does matter if the wire is smaller than you need. So if you only need a 30amp breaker put in a 30 amp breaker.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Excellent option, Marlin!


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## sgcz75b (Jan 8, 2019)

OK. I'm confused again. I do have a stick welder. While I don't approach 50 amps in use, probably 40 at the most, doesn't having a larger amp breaker (and it is a 50 amp breaker) mean that any less amperage requirements will not overload the circuit?

(Grizzly bandsaw specs 
Full-Load Current Rating................................................... 19A at 110V, 9.5A at 220V
Minimum Circuit size............................. 30A at 110V, 15A at 220V?

If a 110 15 amp breaker gets 20 amps of demand, doesn't it trip? I also know from experience that a short in a lamp wire will trip a 15 amp breaker even if nothing else is on that circuit.

I'm not understanding why I should NOT use the existing 50 amp breaker, with 6-8 gauge "S" wire and a 50 amp female plug to connect 220 tools. Remember the extension cord for my purposes only needs to be 20-25 " at most and at no time will more than one tool be in use.

I want a power cord that will let me use my welder and power tools. Is that not possible?

Thanks again.

Steve


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## mjadams61 (Dec 24, 2015)

Or if you want to keep the option of having a outlet for welding you can make a seperate small panel out of a outdoor panel for a single breaker where you can plug it to the 220 volt 50 amp circuit and have a outlet come off that panel you made with a receptacle to fit your bandsaw. When you need it plug it up when you need to weld unplug it. Have it mounted near your 220v 50 amp recepticle.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-...r-Main-Lug-Load-Center-HOM24L70RBCP/100194428


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

What Marlin said. 
Sorry, we got off track on the question of whether you still needed it for welding. Obviously yes, and Marlin has your solution.


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## sgcz75b (Jan 8, 2019)

I understand that's a solution, but I'm not sure what it's a solution for unless I risk my power tools in plugging directly into my 220 50 amp plug.

And if it is a risk for my power tools, I still don't (obviously) grasp what the problem is.

Using a subpanel, I'll still need an extension cord for the power tools and still an extension cord for my welder, correct?

Thanks.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

The argument is somewhat what will work opposed to what is the right thing to do. The right thing to do is install a sub panel so that the breaker matched the tool reasonably close. As Dan mentioned it's sometimes desirable to wire a plug at 20 amps for a load that is supposed to be 15 because some tools have a habit of popping 15 amp breakers, especially if there are some lights and the breaker is getting older. They do get weaker with age and will pop more easily. It isn't that the bandsaw has any chance of tripping the breaker, no matter what kind of load you put and that is also part of the problem. If there is a short the breaker is so massively over rated that it might not pop until the machine catches fire. All the wires going to the tool will handle it EXCEPT the cord on the tool itself. It and the tool are the weakest link. You can go ahead and do it the way you were thinking and there is a good chance it will never be a problem. Some overkill is preferable to underkill here. It is that one chance in a million at issue. All you really need to run that tool is a 15 amp 220 breaker. Installing a subpanel would allow you to have an extra plugin or few and some lighting if you wanted. After all it's nice to have a plug close to the welder for an angle grinder and you won't be using both at the same time.


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## tooler2 (Aug 11, 2012)

The breaker is only there to protect the wire in the wall. You can put any size wire extension cord as long as it is big enough for the load, in this case #12 will be fine, #10 optimal. Your machines should have protection of their own against over current, even if only a heat sensor (reset button) on the motor. A properly wired welder plug is two hots and a ground, no neutral, so you can not derive 120 volts from it. This is a deal breaker for machines that have a magnetic starter with a 120v coil, thou many people will use the ground and one hot to activate it. They should use a 240:120 transformer instead.
Rob


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## tulowd (Jan 24, 2019)

I have a similar situation in my garage. 240V 5hp compressor, 240V 180A welder, 240V 50A plasma cutter and 240V 5000 W heater. Wired up a receptacle near the back and the front of the garage. Made an adaptor plug so the welder and plasma can plug into the front receptacle. Also purchased a 25 ft 50 Amp welding extension cord so I can weld in the driveway. 

Hint: Stove or Range cords are cheap to buy and have large 10 or 8 gage (IIRC) 3 or 4 wire - Home Depot also carries the appropriate receptacles and plugs, so you can make your own cord ends and boxes and adaptor cables.

The breaker information presented here is accurate - the risk of overfusing a machine is not a terrific idea, mine is set on a dual 30A and 15A breaker, so I cannot use more than one 240V tool at a time. Not ideal, but it works.

I rewired the 8g run to the garage in the main panel to give me 240V out of the 100 year old panel that is in there. Going to either update or replace the entire affair shortly, as with the heaters, shop vac, router and the dozen light fixtures I'm running out of juice during motor start up. Will be fusing the circuits with the appropriate sized breakers whenever the time comes - currently underfused which is fine and has worked correctly for 10 years.


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## mgmine (Jan 16, 2012)

Why don't you just run 10 or 12 gauge To the saw and add a 220 receptacle to it? It's a lot cheaper and better than using an extension cord. If your saw can be converted to 220 then the cord on the saw is fine(unless the manufacturer says to replace it). Put a 220-volt plug on it and you're done. A 20 0r or even 30 amp is fine. But a 50 amp is a way overkill. I'm guessing that the saw is only rated at 20 amps.


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## sreilly (May 22, 2018)

One of the things you need to understand is that the maximum amp draw of your tool should be determining the feed to the tool. What could be simpler but more expensive is using that 50 amp circuit to feed a sub-panel. But you should be checking with your local codes as well because if no compliant and something does happen you'll likely find the insurance company will not pay. At the bare minimum look up the National Electrical Code and see what is required for the wiring you want to do. 

What is the amp draw rating on you 220 volt bandsaw? Is the motor thermally protected (have a reset button) and if not wouldn't you want to protect that motor by means of a breaker or fuse? As for sizing wire it's base on length or run and amp draw. The reason that plugs are different configurations is to prevent you from plugging in something that isn't compatible with the circuit. It is a form of protection. If that bandsaw or any other tool is connected that has a lesser amp draw rating then there is the possibility that you could get all of the 50 amps available to that motor and at best burn up just the motor, at worst a fire could result.


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## tooler2 (Aug 11, 2012)

sreilly said:


> One of the things you need to understand is that the maximum amp draw of your tool should be determining the feed to the tool. What could be simpler but more expensive is using that 50 amp circuit to feed a sub-panel. But you should be checking with your local codes as well because if no compliant and something does happen you'll likely find the insurance company will not pay. At the bare minimum look up the National Electrical Code and see what is required for the wiring you want to do.
> 
> What is the amp draw rating on you 220 volt bandsaw? Is the motor thermally protected (have a reset button) and if not wouldn't you want to protect that motor by means of a breaker or fuse? As for sizing wire it's base on length or run and amp draw. The reason that plugs are different configurations is to prevent you from plugging in something that isn't compatible with the circuit. It is a form of protection. If that bandsaw or any other tool is connected that has a lesser amp draw rating then there is the possibility that you could get all of the 50 amps available to that motor and at best burn up just the motor, at worst a fire could result.


I do not think the code applies past the receptacle!!! The load of the machine must not be HIGHER than the circuit it plugs into but lower is no problem. Just think about all the little milliamp loads like cordless phones that plug into a 15 amp circuit in every household.
Rob


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Tooler made a good point about the welder plug wiring. It may not have a neutral going to it which rules out installing a sub panel with that wire. If the plug in on the bandsaw has 4 prongs total then you won't be able to wire it from the welder either as it needs that neutral wire. If it only has 2 prongs and ground it will still work. A lot of newer tools use induction motors and they don't have that starting circuit that needs a neutral.


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## sgcz75b (Jan 8, 2019)

tooler2 said:


> I do not think the code applies past the receptacle!!! The load of the machine must not be HIGHER than the circuit it plugs into but lower is no problem. Just think about all the little milliamp loads like cordless phones that plug into a 15 amp circuit in every household.
> Rob


This is what I've been thinking all along. As long as the tool doesn't draw more than 50 amps (this Grizzly bandsaw draws 10 amps at most) I don't understand why a subpanel is suggested, or re-working the circuit.

I honestly have tried to follow the reasoning for those suggestions, but cannot make sense of them.

I can not see how an extension cord made for 220 50 amps used with 220 power tools drawing far less than 50 amps could be a danger to any tool or circuit or cause damage.

I may be wrong here but if that was the case wouldn't 120 extension cords pose the same danger?

My idea is to use a 50 amp male plug matching my existing old-style 50 amp welding female receptacle on one end and add a female welding style receptacle on the other end and equip all the 220 tools with the matching male plugs on the tools cords.

That way all tools, including my welder, can be serviced by one 20-25' extension cord.

Thanks.

Steve


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## tooler2 (Aug 11, 2012)

sgcz75b said:


> My idea is to use a 50 amp male plug matching my existing old-style 50 amp welding female receptacle on one end and add a female welding style receptacle on the other end and equip all the 220 tools with the matching male plugs on the tools cords.
> 
> That way all tools, including my welder, can be serviced by one 20-25' extension cord.
> 
> ...


As long as none of your machines require the neutral that will not be present if your welder 50 amp plug is wired to code. As I mentioned some machines with mag starters will have 120v coils so that they can be used either 120 or 240v. In those you SHOULD use a control transformer to get 120v rather than using the ground as a neutral.
Rob


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## tooler2 (Aug 11, 2012)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> I just did exactly what you want to do. I added a 20 amp plug wired from my welder plug. I only used 12 gauge wire and it's not a great idea but it's for my planer and I'll be standing next to it the whole time it's running so I think I can manage the risk. The best way to do what you suggest is to take the wire from the welder plug and run it into a sub panel. Some sub panels allow you to run a wire out that is direct and not fused. That could allow you to hook up to the welder again without going through another breaker other than the the one in the main panel. That would allow a 30 amp sub panel which could be used for the tools you want to run as none of them should be greater than 20 amps. That should be code compliant I think.


This is manifestly incorrect and against code, your 20 amp receptacle must be wired for the 50 amp breaker because it is part of your building's hard wire. 
Rob


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

tooler2 said:


> This is manifestly incorrect and against code, your 20 amp receptacle must be wired for the 50 amp breaker because it is part of your building's hard wire.
> Rob


I am acutely aware of that. I've been doing all my own wiring for the last 45 years and most got inspected and passed. I needed a plug for my planer because my son filled the back end of my shop with his possessions when he split with his girlfriend of about 10 years and I can't reach the plug it should go to with the extension cord I have. Most of the time I leave the breaker to it turned off as I am not logging anymore and don't weld very much anymore as a result. So it's only live when I'm standing a few feet away. I believe the risk is manageable under those circumstances.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Steve; there's two separate isssues going in this discussion;
1...everything being protected on the supply side of the 50A breaker (strictly according to the Electrical Code)
2...the load (downstream) components, and particularly the motor and other tool components which as Charles explained would have basically no protection other than what's built into them, using the 50A breaker. It's massively oversized for overload protection as opposed to a short cct.
Charles pointed out that without proper overload protection the motor would likely fry it's windings if the tool jams for example (motor shaft can't turn but the power is still flowing.)


Totally beside the point, _but sort of related_:
The gym I go to has condo units above. This morning when I arrived the place was crawling with cops and firedept. guys. Somebody tried to use a propane camp-stove INDOORS and caused an explosion, blowing out his ste. windows and setting off the sprinklers. You gotta wonder...
(Never a dull moment up here in Wonder land)


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## sgcz75b (Jan 8, 2019)

Problem solved! I called a retired electrician who just left the shop. He's going to install 2 new 30 amp 220 outlets, 4 new interior 110 outlets, 2 exterior 110 outlets, and check the existing welding plug and make me a 20' extension cord for my welder. For 5-600 plus the cost of materials.

I'll have about $1000 in it when done. So money well-spent.

Next up - after the bandsaw it's time for a jointer and planer.

Thanks to all who contributed to this thread. 
Steve


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

The right decision, Steve! Money well spent.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

"I called a retired electrician who just left the shop"
Wait...what? 
Another retiree not clear on the retirement concept!


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## tooler2 (Aug 11, 2012)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> I am acutely aware of that. I've been doing all my own wiring for the last 45 years and most got inspected and passed. I needed a plug for my planer because my son filled the back end of my shop with his possessions when he split with his girlfriend of about 10 years and I can't reach the plug it should go to with the extension cord I have. Most of the time I leave the breaker to it turned off as I am not logging anymore and don't weld very much anymore as a result. So it's only live when I'm standing a few feet away. I believe the risk is manageable under those circumstances.


For the sake of everybody else reading this thread the problem is your wire size to the 20 amp receptacle should be #6 for 50 amps if it is hard wired because the next owner of your house will not know it is not. Your ''extension cord'' to the 20 amp receptacle would be to code if it was fitted with a male 50 amp plug instead of hard wired, though it is not an extension cord if it passes through, is attached to or in a wall.. It is dead easy to put a fused disconnect right beside the 50 amp receptacle, hard wired with #6, and then run your 20 amp circuit from there. You can buy a half metre of #6 tec cable to do the job very cheaply. This is one reason it is nice to have surface mount wiring in a shop where machines get shuffled around.Once again a reminder that a welder outlet is two hots and a ground, no neutral like a four pronged stove or dryer outlet, and that your panel breaker is there to protect the wire from over heating, NOT to protect a motor or act as an on/off switch.
Rob


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## sgcz75b (Jan 8, 2019)

DaninVan said:


> "I called a retired electrician who just left the shop"
> Wait...what?
> Another retiree not clear on the retirement concept!


He enjoys life more. No more union BS and does what he wants, when he wants, and can help people without the ridiculous union rules.

He actually enjoys working 8 hr days for honest work and honest and well-deserved pay. That's a rarity.

I'm glad to have him.


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## MT Stringer (Aug 15, 2012)

I bought a heavy duty extension cord so I could run my table saw. 32 years and counting, and we have never used the 220v dryer connection (30 A breaker). I changed out the receptacle for use as 220v regular type plug, and changed out the other end to match the plug on the Grizzly 3hp table saw. No problem with over-amping. Several times during extended use (lots of ripping), I would check the cord to see if it was hot, but no problem.


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## MT Stringer (Aug 15, 2012)

sgcz75b said:


> Problem solved! I called a retired electrician who just left the shop. He's going to install 2 new 30 amp 220 outlets, 4 new interior 110 outlets, 2 exterior 110 outlets, and check the existing welding plug and make me a 20' extension cord for my welder. For 5-600 plus the cost of materials.
> 
> I'll have about $1000 in it when done. So money well-spent.
> 
> ...


Good idea. You will enjoy the new setup.


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## sgcz75b (Jan 8, 2019)

My guy's a whiz! I told him what I wanted, he told me what he'd do to give me what I wanted and make it easy to expand for any future needs. Plus he's buying all the materials up-front and not charging any markup. Just straight labor.

How lucky can I be!

I'll pay him cash. Everybody wins!


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

tooler2 said:


> For the sake of everybody else reading this thread the problem is your wire size to the 20 amp receptacle should be #6 for 50 amps if it is hard wired because the next owner of your house will not know it is not. Your ''extension cord'' to the 20 amp receptacle would be to code if it was fitted with a male 50 amp plug instead of hard wired, though it is not an extension cord if it passes through, is attached to or in a wall.. It is dead easy to put a fused disconnect right beside the 50 amp receptacle, hard wired with #6, and then run your 20 amp circuit from there. You can buy a half metre of #6 tec cable to do the job very cheaply. This is one reason it is nice to have surface mount wiring in a shop where machines get shuffled around.Once again a reminder that a welder outlet is two hots and a ground, no neutral like a four pronged stove or dryer outlet, and that your panel breaker is there to protect the wire from over heating, NOT to protect a motor or act as an on/off switch.
> Rob


The largest wire size recommended to try and wrap around screw terminals is #12. Anything larger won't do it. After #12 you have to have clamping type connections instead (think dryer, electric stove, and welder plug in type terminals). So even if I wanted to I would not be able to comply with the rule as the 20 amp outlet requires wrapping a wire around the screw terminals. Also not using breaker Rob for an on/off switch. I just don't leave it on when not in use. Planer has an induction motor and no mag switch so doesn't need a neutral. Both the welder and the planer have their own switches. Breakers are not only to protect wire from overheating, they are also there to protect against dead shorts and overloading circuit wiring. I currently have about 12" of wire between 20 amp plug and 50 amp plug. I stand about 10 feet away from the plug in when using the planer and about 35' from the panel. If something goes wrong with the planer I'm confident I'll recognize the problem and take the appropriate action. The original question was will it work and the answer to that is yes it will. Is a good solution? The answer is not so much but like a lot of other jobs, the right person can manage it. Should it be recommended? Only by explaining the various caveats with taking that course of action and letting the other person weigh the risks based on their understanding of the potential problems and whether they can be tempered with their knowledge of them. I think we all did a pretty good job of that on this one.


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## tooler2 (Aug 11, 2012)

The OP asked a simple, sensible question and received a string of nonsensical, ignorant, dangerous and possibly illegal answers from people who really should not be posting ''advice'' on a public forum. These threads do not disappear after a day or two, they remain and are read by people for years, many of whom will never post a question. They come to seek answers and remain lurkers. Imagine if they think it is OK to do something dangerous like using too small a wire in a circuit hidden in a wall or using 12 volt components in a 240 volt circuit.
IMO threads like this one are not just about answering the OP's specific query, they are about disseminating information and opinions and advice and experiences for public benefit. Most threads on a forum like this are open to opinions from absolutely anybody, there are no wrong answers on subjective issues, but when safety is directly concerned I feel a need to try to correct gross inaccuracies.
Rob


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## sgcz75b (Jan 8, 2019)

tooler2 said:


> The OP asked a simple, sensible question and received a string of nonsensical, ignorant, dangerous and possibly illegal answers from people who really should not be posting ''advice'' on a public forum. These threads do not disappear after a day or two, they remain and are read by people for years, many of whom will never post a question. They come to seek answers and remain lurkers. Imagine if they think it is OK to do something dangerous like using too small a wire in a circuit hidden in a wall or using 12 volt components in a 240 volt circuit.
> IMO threads like this one are not just about answering the OP's specific query, they are about disseminating information and opinions and advice and experiences for public benefit. Most threads on a forum like this are open to opinions from absolutely anybody, there are no wrong answers on subjective issues, but when safety is directly concerned I feel a need to try to correct gross inaccuracies.
> Rob


Rob, I appreciate your candor. I kept thinking I was missing something with all the different advice, but couldn't get the simple answer of what was wrong with a 50 amp 220 breaker and plugging a 15 amp 220 tool into that circuit.

I also want to thank you for your explanation of why my 40 year-old welder plug circuit may not work on modern 220 tools. After thinking it over, I called my electrician and told him let's just take out the 50 amp breaker, install a 30 amp breaker, new 4-wire, and a new plug.

That will give me 3 30 amp 220 outlets, all using the same female receptacles so I can use the same male plugs on all the tools.

I'll get rid of the behemoth 37-year-old stick welder, and replace it with a modern-day welder drawing less than 30 amps for the little bit of welding I do nowadays. I'm not welding on tractors and farm equipment anymore.

Thanks for encouraging me to do the right thing by electrical standards.

I may not be the brightest bulb when it comes to electrical problems, but I am always willing to listen to well-reasoned and thoughtful explanations and now I feel better about safely doing my electrical upgrades to code. I'll sleep good tonight.

Steve


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

tooler2 said:


> The OP asked a simple, sensible question and received a string of nonsensical, ignorant, dangerous and possibly illegal answers from people who really should not be posting ''advice'' on a public forum. These threads do not disappear after a day or two, they remain and are read by people for years, many of whom will never post a question. They come to seek answers and remain lurkers. Imagine if they think it is OK to do something dangerous like using too small a wire in a circuit hidden in a wall or using 12 volt components in a 240 volt circuit.
> IMO threads like this one are not just about answering the OP's specific query, they are about disseminating information and opinions and advice and experiences for public benefit. Most threads on a forum like this are open to opinions from absolutely anybody, there are no wrong answers on subjective issues, but when safety is directly concerned I feel a need to try to correct gross inaccuracies.
> Rob


No one said the wire was going to be hidden in a wall Rob. Also no one said anything about 12 volt. If you meant 120 volt then the same wire often gets used for either circuit since 220 doesn't always require a neutral. Certainly the plug should be one of the 220 configurations to avoid anyone mistaking it for a standard duplex plug. I came across that one once at a place my brother in law moved into. We plugged a trouble light into it and the bulb exploded. Luckily it was just a trouble light. I don't remember anyone grossly misrepresenting the truth. The question was asked will it work and the answer was yes. Is it a good idea? No. You need to start winding down now.


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## tooler2 (Aug 11, 2012)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> No one said the wire was going to be hidden in a wall Rob. Also no one said anything about 12 volt. If you meant 120 volt then the same wire often gets used for either circuit since 220 doesn't always require a neutral. Certainly the plug should be one of the 220 configurations to avoid anyone mistaking it for a standard duplex plug. I came across that one once at a place my brother in law moved into. We plugged a trouble light into it and the bulb exploded. Luckily it was just a trouble light. I don't remember anyone grossly misrepresenting the truth. The question was asked will it work and the answer was yes. Is it a good idea? No. You need to start winding down now.


Somebody linked to a 12v fuse and somebody talked about using #12 wire in a 50 amp circuit, what am I missing? Several people seemed to believe that a power cord plugged into a receptacle has to be big enough to carry the entire ampacity of the breaker protecting the circuit! Who is wound up?
Rob


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## sreilly (May 22, 2018)

First, and I should have said this before, I'm not an electrician, never was, just a retired HVAC Tech. Unless you're getting information directly from a licensed electrician I'd take anything said with a grain of salt. Point being anything you do will be your responsibility. Do it wrong and the consequences are yours alone. That said, after reading a bit more I saw that NEC does allowance for dedicated welders because they are not continuous draw machines. For a 50 amp rated welder you may only have a 10 gauge wire running to that outlet anyway or if it was run as standard circuit it may be a # 6 copper or aluminium. The copper is rated for 50 amps while the Al is 55. I always used copper due to heat causing the Al connections to loosen. When servicing HVAC equipment I always re-tightened the connections at the disconnect especially if it was Al wire. Wire size and type is usually printed on the shielding (cover). You can easily look this up but standard copper Romex wire is rated as such:

14/2(3) 15 amps The 3 conductor wires such as 14/3, 12/3 and so on have two hots, a neutral, and a ground wire
12/2(3) 20 amps
10/2(3) 30 amps
#6 SER/SEU Copper/Al 50 amps 55 amps

Rather than discuss it here you may want to consider calling your city/county Inspections office and see if they can guide you on this. But I would confirm what gauge wire is actually run now. Way better safe than sorry. Just because it seems to work doesn't make it safe or proper. Just saying electricity isn't very forgiving.


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

One of the beauties of this forum is the diverse experiences and backgrounds of its members. These may have been licensed journeymen in professions that are closely related to woodworking. The closest relationship seems to be in the electrical requirements of the equipment in our shops, big or small. Other backgrounds and experiences include software, operating systems, applications, lighting, air conditioning, air flow and equalization, hardware, etc... But you don't see many discussions related to plumbing, for example.

Because we don't see any relationship to woodworking we don't post discussions here. Note what we do when somebody posts a question regarding "routers". There are many networking experts on the forum but we don't get into the discussion deeply except to make a generic recommendation and send the poster on their way.

It seems we should treat electrical issues much the same way. My way of dealing with this is by asking myself "does it require a license", "are there codes involved"...?

I need to replace a deck, I didn't ask here...building codes involved. Years ago I needed to wire my garage when I first started to use it as a shop...codes involved, license. I needed to do the same thing Steve is trying to do...I contacted an electrician.

Like many other discussions on this forum, opinions are mixed in with solid information...it is the posters responsibility to accept and acknowledge the responses and then make a final decision. Only the captain of a ship can decide to leave port in a storm or not.

I learned a lot from this discussion but mostly that it fortifies my approach...when it comes to electrical requirements, I call the retired electrician guy up the street.

This is not intended to offend anybody in the trade...just expressing an opinion...

Thanks...


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## sgcz75b (Jan 8, 2019)

I originally asked the question as I thought those who had 220v woodworking tools would know more about it than me and could provide a "simple" answer. I've never owned 220 tools other than my 37-year-old welder.

I wasn't prepared for the various convoluted and contradictory answers I received. 

What I have learned, is that, with a couple of exceptions, many may know about routing and woodworking, few know about electrical codes and best practices.

After Rob advised that my ancient welding plug may not work for me and gave a reasoned explanation why, I thought I had found someone who 1. understood my original post, and 2. knew what he was talking about. That's when I decided to call in an electrician who, in essence, backed-up what Rob said.

As you talk about your deck and not asking questions here about it, I understand. But since most woodworkers use electricity I believed that this forum was the proper place for such a question and I still do.

Perhaps someone else who reads through this mish-mash of replies will save themselves the consternation and potential life and property damage and go directly to those who know about it - a qualified electrician.

I know that those who replied did so in good faith, and I appreciate that they tried. But good faith answers to electrical situations can still get you killed.

Thanks.

Steve


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

tooler2 said:


> Somebody linked to a 12v fuse and somebody talked about using #12 wire in a 50 amp circuit, what am I missing? Several people seemed to believe that a power cord plugged into a receptacle has to be big enough to carry the entire ampacity of the breaker protecting the circuit! Who is wound up?
> Rob


A 12 volt fuse would explode subjected to 120 volts. Your comment about extension cords made me think that Xmas lights are often hooked up to light extension cords and lamps are wired with 16-18 gauge lamp cord and those are UL and CSA approved so it would seem by inference that an extension cord is only required to handle the load put on it and doesn't need to handle to full circuit current.

As far as Code, when I started wiring back in the early 70s there was a book available written by PS Knight who was a former electrical inspector in the Vancouver area. It was and I think still is called Electrical Code Simplified, Residential. I have volume 1. Some of the code has changed since. For example when I wired in my electrical baseboard heaters I was required to wire them based on 80% of circuit capacity. Shop motor loads were under the same rule as they could be continuous. This has changed to 100% for at least the heat loads as electricians argued that heat loads are constant unlike duplex plug in loads which can't be controlled and they are calculated at 100%. I helped my brother wire his place in Alabama a couple of years ago and we had to wire the washing machine to a dedicated 20 amp outlet. I argued with the electrical inspector that this didn't make sense as a washing machine only draws maybe 10 amps on startup and is by design an intermittent load. His reply was "I don't write the code, I just have to enforce it". I suspect this new rule could change later. We also had to wire in tamper proof receptacles which weren't required back when I did my house.

The point of all that is that I am very familiar with the code. I just about had this book memorized when I was doing a lot of wiring. I used to help other locals do their wiring too as they could get permits to do their own and ask for help, I just couldn't do the whole job for them. One electrical inspector saw me enough times he suggested I write for a C ticket. Daninvan knows about as much as I do and he had the same source material as I worked from. So although neither of us are ticketed, we are pretty knowledgeable. For my own personal use I know the difference between what I can get away with and what I should do and if I do sell my place na few years I would probably remove things like the extra plug I added to run my planer with. A house inspector would catch that one right away.

As I've pointed out to you twice before the questions were will it work and is it the right way to do it. Both questions were answered fully. Steve is doing the best thing and getting a professional to do it who will get a permit and cover all the bases which eliminates any insurance risk. From my experience it probably won't get inspected as inspectors here rarely inspect work done by ticketed professionals. Sometimes that is a bad thing. One of my uncles hired an electrical contractor to wire a dryer in and he wanted to work on it later and couldn't figure out which breakers in the panel shut it off so he called me over. I found that the electrician had used a single 40 and a single 30 and hadn't even bother linking them together so that one could have tripped without tripping the other. An absolute no-no but I guess that's what he had in the truck and he didn't want to go all the way from where we live back into to town and get the right breaker. Anyway Rob, you can relax. You aren't the only one here who knows something about the code.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Heh...


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

DaninVan said:


> Heh...



...had to clean off my keyboard and screen...ROTFLMFAO... :lol:


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## woodknots (Mar 7, 2012)

DaninVan said:


> Heh...


Advice!!!! I thought you said "do you want some ice?"


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## vzbingo (Mar 1, 2012)

*Terminology correction*



tooler2 said:


> The breaker is only there to protect the wire in the wall. You can put any size wire extension cord as long as it is big enough for the load, in this case #12 will be fine, #10 optimal. Your machines should have protection of their own against over current, even if only a heat sensor (reset button) on the motor. A properly wired welder plug is two hots and a ground, no neutral, so you can not derive 120 volts from it. This is a deal breaker for machines that have a magnetic starter with a 120v coil, thou many people will use the ground and one hot to activate it. They should use a 240:120 transformer instead.
> Rob


Actually it's 2 hots and a neutral. The ground(green wire) is the safety cable for the equipment operator whereas the neutral is the return circuit wire (white). The 220vac hot wires are 1 red and 1 black.


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## tooler2 (Aug 11, 2012)

vzbingo said:


> Actually it's 2 hots and a neutral. The ground(green wire) is the safety cable for the equipment operator whereas the neutral is the return circuit wire (white). The 220vac hot wires are 1 red and 1 black.


In Canada it is two hots and a ground for a welder plug (50 amp) Any three prong 240v applications like heaters are the same. Four prong applications like stoves and driers have the neutral. I would be astonished if the USA was different!
Rob


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## thermobaric (Oct 7, 2012)

I would just like to say


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## thermobaric (Oct 7, 2012)

that having to make ten posts in order to use URL's is not the best idea. Given all the bad advice on here, it would be nice if one could cite their information...(oh look, that's ten)


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## thermobaric (Oct 7, 2012)

tooler2 said:


> In Canada it is two hots and a ground for a welder plug (50 amp) Any three prong 240v applications like heaters are the same. Four prong applications like stoves and driers have the neutral. *I would be astonished if the USA was different!*
> Rob


It's not. I'd copy and paste it out of the NEC but that would be copyright infringement. It's two hots and a ground, not neutral, and the hots can be different or even the same colors, not necessarily red and black. NEC (2017) goes so far as to say you can even use 2 conductor wire(12/2 N-MB for instance) to run a 240V circuit, so long as you mark the white wire on both ends as a hot wire instead of neutral using black electrical tape or permanent marker. I could spend the next hour typing a poor explanation of why ground and neutral are both the same and different, including a dissertation on how that center-tap transformer outside your house is used to power your goodies, but at this point there is SO MUCH BAD INFORMATION IN THIS THREAD that it would be safer for a MOD to *PLEASE NUKE THIS THREAD*. Seriously, it's a safety hazard.


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## Steve Pack (Jan 1, 2014)

You would be better served if you a install breaker box on the fed of feed of the welder plug, or even better where does it originate. I would tap ahead of welder receptacle. Here is a link to wire size capacity. Do not try and tray to make a power cord from welding lead. run a wire from new breaker box to next to next near band saw and install an appropriate receptacle an plug. A 12 or 14 awg will carry enough power for band saw A 1 hp motor is 746 watts so assuming an 80% efficiency of motor it will draw 4.6 amps. I wired my shop with a maximum of 3 receptacles per breaker. A 25 feet extension cord will reach tools from nearest receptacle.Of course it helped that was (am) an electrician. I usually worked with 3 phase 480 volts.
https://www.cerrowire.com/products/resources/tables-calculators/ampacity-charts/
https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/electrical-motor-hp-amps-d_1455.html


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## sgcz75b (Jan 8, 2019)

thermobaric said:


> at this point there is SO MUCH BAD INFORMATION IN THIS THREAD that it would be safer for a MOD to *PLEASE NUKE THIS THREAD*. Seriously, it's a safety hazard.


I agree that this thread is filled with not only bad information but life-and-property damaging misinformation.

Perhaps the moderator could put an asterisk * on this thread and explain that contained within this thread are many convoluted and dangerous ideas in electrical shop wiring by otherwise fairly intelligent people. Explain that because of this mis-mash of erroneous information, one should ALWAYS seek the advice of a qualified electrician and not rely on opinions of those who mean well but whose ideas may burn down your house and kill you.

Steve


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## sgcz75b (Jan 8, 2019)

My last post on this thread to wind it up.

Last Sunday, I posted the question about using a 220 extension cord. 
No need to rehash the various opinions expressed.

An hour ago, my electrician left and here are the results.

I have a new 100 amp box. I have four 220 outlets properly installed with 20 amp breakers. I have two exterior 120 20 amp boxes on the same circuit. I have five 120 20 amp boxes all on separate circuits. I have 4 220 plugs to wire power tools as they arrive.

The cost for labor and materials = $1163.00

Less than one week from wondering about an extension cord to having an abundance of outlets at a cost that is well-below average.

I am happy. The end.

Steve


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## Traupmann (Jun 14, 2013)

I've had a 220V extension cord running to my table saw for years. I used a Black line from Home Depot wire and standard 220 plugs. Never have had an issue with it. I recommend that you put labels along the cord for Safety.indicating that they are for 220V.


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## MN Southpaw (Jan 3, 2012)

sgcz75b said:


> I have a 220 50 amp circuit in my shop for welding which I will use for my 220 bandsaw. Is there any reason not to make a 220 extension cord that would make it easier to change out plugs?
> 
> Maybe a gang box with a couple of plugs? I wouldn't be running two tools at a time, but the convenience would be great.
> 
> ...


I am a licensed electrician, and woodworker.
Yes, you can use an 8 awg extension cord, which will be large enough to protect your EXTENSION CORD for the given circuit it is plugged into.
BUT that is only half of the problem. What is the maximum circuit size your 220v bandsaw is rated for? 20 amps? 30 amps? Putting a power tool on a 50 amp circuit (circuit breaker size, not wire size) when the tool connected is only rated to be on a 20 or 30 amp maximum circuit, will leave your BANDSAW unprotected in the event of an over-current. Check your owners manual for the bandsaw, to verify the maximum circuit size allowed for this tool. If you want to use the welder circuit to feed the bandsaw, you may need to install a smaller circuit breaker or fuses at the electrical panel, to meet requirements for the bandsaw.

Please remember this quote: Electricity has a way of weeding out the Stupid!
If you are not qualified, it is best to leave electrical work for those who are.
I am not saying this to insult you, just to caution you on the potential dangers involved.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Thanks, Matt; you vindicated what I said earlier on re the oversized breaker and the potential (no pun intended) for damaging the machine...and I'm not an electrician!


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Heh...


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## tooler2 (Aug 11, 2012)

Most consumer goods supplied with a plug should have built in protection from over current. The Electric code does not cover machines with plugs, it stops at the receptacle. Power cords and extension cords only need to be big enough for the load on them, not the size of breaker on the circuit feeding them. FWIW the trip time for a 10 amp or a 50 amp breaker is just about identical in a short circuit situation. The code has plenty to say about hard-wired devices with motors to the point of complexity that the device should come with instructions for breaker size, mostly to prevent nuisance trips that could lead to dangerous work arounds by non qualified players.
Rob


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Rob; the Canadian Electrical Code covers EVERYTHING, _just not in the volume generally available at the Electrical wholesaler (Part I)_, or wherever you get yours from.
Five parts in total, if I'm not mistaken...
https://blog.ansi.org/2018/01/parts-canadian-electrical-code-csa-c22/


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## tooler2 (Aug 11, 2012)

DaninVan said:


> Rob; the Canadian Electrical Code covers EVERYTHING, _just not in the volume generally available at the Electrical wholesaler (Part I)_, or wherever you get yours from.
> Five parts in total, if I'm not mistaken...
> https://blog.ansi.org/2018/01/parts-canadian-electrical-code-csa-c22/




From consumer's point of view, the CSA tests all electric products sold in Canada so as to insure that any idiot can bring something home from the store and plug it into a receptacle without regard to any other knowledge. The CEC (which may indeed be written by the CSA as your link to the blog of the American National Standards Institute seems to indicate.) is the ''code'' that applies to hard wiring in buildings. As a consumer you do not have to know about any of it, that is not your job, unless you start playing around installing or modifying any thing electrical.Those of us that are comfortable with electricity will make up a ''cheater'' extension cord with different rated male and female ends but are reluctant to recommend others do it or more to the point make one up for somebody else. By the same token when Festool had to recall vacuums because they had not passed CSA inspection but had passed UL for the USA we were not really concerned about safety but the tools had to be returned anyway. When I see blatantly dangerous information on a public forum I feel an ethical persuasion to respond, even if that makes me unpopular.
Rob


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

I’m not an electrician,but I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

I’m not an electrician,but I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Actually, they don't 'Test' everything. The CSA stamp is in many cases self regulated, ie the manufacture pays CSA (big bucks!) and is allowed to uh, do their own due diligence.
I posted a comment here about a guy that blew the interior of his condo up* with a butane stove of some sort. OK; the backstory is that ALLEGEDLY he had just bought this butane sppliance from Crappy T... 
Apparently this device has been recalled in Australia, US, and the UK. _How come CSA and /or any other Federal agency hasn't pulled this thing off the market?_
Just to be clear, CSA is a PRIVATE organization, according to a recent Legal decision, not a Gov't agency.

* The device started burning and the owner ran into the bathroom to get a towel to smother it. That's when the butane tank exploded! He was unhurt but the force of the blast moved the exterior condo wall outwards a full inch. Lots of water damage from the sprinkler system as well. The article in the local paper said that the device promoted itself as for indoor and outdoor use. 
So. CSA? Their stamp and $2.50 will get you a coffee.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

*Truer Words...*



RainMan 2.0 said:


> I’m not an electrician,but I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night


LMAO! Good one, Rick!! :grin:


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

That reminded me, I haven't posted any updates on the CSA three ring legal circus for awhile...
https://www.restorecsa.com/news/article/the-sixth-lawsuit-and-csas-180-errors

Also, CSA promotes themselves as _the_ gas appliance certification go-to-guys:
https://www.csagroup.org/testing-certification/marks-labels/csa-marks-labels-north-america/


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