# biscuits or dowels



## Barry99 (Feb 10, 2009)

looking at buying craftsman plate jointer $99. I tried a cheap manual dowel kit for $13 from HF but dowels end up off 1/8" or so. Understand plater jointer is very accurate. Would like to hear pros and cons. Links to product would be most appreciate. :help:
Thanks Barry


----------



## RobW (Apr 12, 2008)

Hi Barry
Biscuits have a place and I use them but when ever I can I use dowels, I think they so much better. Take a look at dowelmax.com this is an amazing tool and it works 100% of the time,I love it.
Rob


----------



## xplorx4 (Dec 1, 2008)

You don't need a plate joiner, just use your router with a slot cutting bit. In a recent article in Wood, or Woodworkers Journal the router was use to cut a continuous slot to join two halves of a table or wookbench. I have an older plate joiner (but like new) PC that my Dad left me and have use it with success. I have also used one of the not so perfect dowelling jigs that I got at HD and it has done well also. I am going to try the slotting bit with the router when I join the two tops at my island assembly. I plan to align it with the biscuits and then secure it from the bottomed son as not too glue it for when I take it apart sometime in the future. I would say if you plan to go the plate joiner get a good one and not cheap. Dads was not the best and tends to want to move as the blade engages the wood, I adjust for it by holding it to the edge little more. I am sure others have used the router in the same way.


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Jerry, the biscuit jointer and slot cutter BOTH have their uses, but to answer Barry's question, a biscuit jointer is a very valuable tool, with todays' high tech. adhesives, a glue joint is stronger than the wood itself and so all that is normally required is a means of aligning the pieces to be jointed and this is where the biscuits come into their own. Bear in mind that no measurements are needed, just align the two pieces and draw a freehand pencil line at the centre points, plunge the cutter, move it a little side to side to allow heaps of sideways adjustment and it's done. I promise you Barry that it will be the best $99.00 that you ever spend on tools.
The third shot is jointing boards for a small coffee table, biscuits are perfect because there is a big glue surface, shot two of the carcass is a different matter, there is only a small glue area so we needed the extra strength of dowels.


----------



## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Harry

The project below would be great job for the pocket hole screws,you know how I feel about dowel pins.. ( if want a ltem to turn put it on a round pin  )

===========


----------



## Noob (Apr 18, 2009)

Have any of you used one of these biscuit making router bits?










Biscuit bit LINK

At $35, it's a tempting deal but I've never used biscuits before. I've read biscuits are more for alignment while gluing and dowels are more for strength, but that will probably open a can of worms.


----------



## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Noop

Yes  and slot cutters also..:sold:

http://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/smarthtml/pages/biscuits.html
=======



Noob said:


> Have any of you used one of these biscuit making router bits?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## rwyoung (Aug 3, 2008)

The PC biscuit cutter is a very accurate and solid piece of machinery. Plus it comes with a second cutter for the #FF biscuits. The Sears units are either/or. I believe they have one that does standard sizes (20, 10, 0) and one that only does the FF.

That said, the PC is much more than $99. And biscuits are not really intended for strength although they can create a joint stronger than a butt joint (it is a minature floating tenon after all). But nowhere near as strong as a true M&T, or multi-dowel joint. Depending on whose test you believe they are just above or just below pocket hole screws in strength if properly done and glued.

Good for panel alignment, face frames, face frame attachment (alignment again) and quick carcass construction. I've done all these with mine as well as used it while making some jigs that required good alignment between perpendicular pieces.

Rockler has a nice $10 two hole doweling jig that is quite accurate for 3/4" stock and if you remove the clear plastic fence and replace it with hardboard+sandpaper you can make very accurate joints. I think there is a good thread at sawmillcreek.org about this jig. Unfortunately I don't have a link to post at the moment.


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

bobj3 said:


> Hi Harry
> 
> The project below would be great job for the pocket hole screws,you know how I feel about dowel pins.. ( if want a ltem to turn put it on a round pin  )
> 
> ===========


Bob, if I were still into regular furniture making I would definitely get a top of the range pocket hole jig. Having said that, my foot operated router lifter makes dowelling a very fast operation and so simple compared to all the fancy jigs that over the years I've spent a small fortune on.


----------



## Barry99 (Feb 10, 2009)

harrysin said:


> Bob, if I were still into regular furniture making I would definitely get a top of the range pocket hole jig. Having said that, my foot operated router lifter makes dowelling a very fast operation and so simple compared to all the fancy jigs that over the years I've spent a small fortune on.


Thanks all for the good info. 

Harry, I do have one question. Your above statement about foot operated router lifter makes dowelling fast and simple. Can you explain this a bit more because I am not sure what you mean. Thanks.


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Barry, click on this link showing a small coffee table that I made, using my foot operated lifter. Once the wood is in position against the fence, a quick step on the pedal raises the router with an up cut spiral cutter and the dowel hole is made instantaneously.

http://www.routerforums.com/jigs-fixtures/4892-first-project-using-my-nikilift.html


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

I remember doing a photo shoot when making the lifter but can't find it, old threads appear to get knocked off to make way for new ones, but this link will take you to the page in my gallery but unfortunately it was before I learnt how to add text to the photos.

http://www.routerforums.com/profile.php?do=editattachments&showthumbs=1&page=171


----------



## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Harry

You don't need spend a fortune for one,you can make one from scrap wood and you can use your guides that you love to use and I made fixture just for user like you that like to use the plunge/hand router for many router jobs..\\ 

You will be amazed how easy the pocket holes screws are to use over the dowel pin way.. 

http://www.routerforums.com/jigs-fixtures/2470-pocket-hole-jig-router-table.html


======



harrysin said:


> Bob, if I were still into regular furniture making I would definitely get a top of the range pocket hole jig. Having said that, my foot operated router lifter makes dowelling a very fast operation and so simple compared to all the fancy jigs that over the years I've spent a small fortune on.


----------



## rwyoung (Aug 3, 2008)

harrysin said:


> I remember doing a photo shoot when making the lifter but can't find it, old threads appear to get knocked off to make way for new ones, but this link will take you to the page in my gallery but unfortunately it was before I learnt how to add text to the photos.
> 
> http://www.routerforums.com/profile.php?do=editattachments&showthumbs=1&page=171


OK, weird. I just clicked the link and it went to MY photo gallery instead. Very odd. :fie:


----------



## Hamlin (Dec 25, 2005)

Hi guys,

I'll contact Mark. That link did the same for me as well.


----------



## Glenmore (Sep 10, 2004)

Barry I always have had better luck with dowels then I do with the biscuit jointer and that is with no dowel jig either I always lined the wood up with a line and drilled away seems that I never had to run anything threw the planer now with a biscuit jointer I have to plane every piece. Must just be me. :cray:


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

What a wonderful example of your ingenuity Bj., however, because of the poor state of our economy, I feel obligated to spend money to help things along! (or to be honest, I've reached the stage where I no longer have patience to make such devices, in any case the chances are that within a few months I would pick it up and struggle trying to remember what it's for!) This was the case when we moved from our last home where we had lived for 35 years, when packing all my tools, I spent lots of time trying to remember what many of my jigs had been made for and binned all those that I couldn't remember.
__________________


----------



## westend (Mar 31, 2009)

Barry99 said:


> looking at buying craftsman plate jointer $99. I tried a cheap manual dowel kit for $13 from HF but dowels end up off 1/8" or so. Understand plater jointer is very accurate. Would like to hear pros and cons. Links to product would be most appreciate. :help:
> Thanks Barry


I don't know if you're using these pins but they work well for me:Dowel Pins - General Tools & Instruments . I am looking for a bisquit joiner, as well. Here is a review of some: http://www.woodnet.net/plansnow/review-platejointer2.pdf


----------



## Mark (Aug 4, 2004)

harrysin said:


> I remember doing a photo shoot when making the lifter but can't find it, old threads appear to get knocked off to make way for new ones, but this link will take you to the page in my gallery but unfortunately it was before I learnt how to add text to the photos.
> 
> http://www.routerforums.com/profile.php?do=editattachments&showthumbs=1&page=171


The link you provided will goto others gallery because the way it's formatted.

Regardless, I believe this link should work: http://www.routerforums.com/profile.php?do=editattachments&u=10844&showthumbs=1&page=171

If it's not on that page you would also try a page before or a page after.

http://www.routerforums.com/profile.php?do=editattachments&u=10844&showthumbs=1&page=170

http://www.routerforums.com/profile.php?do=editattachments&u=10844&showthumbs=1&page=172


----------



## Barry99 (Feb 10, 2009)

harrysin said:


> Barry, click on this link showing a small coffee table that I made, using my foot operated lifter. Once the wood is in position against the fence, a quick step on the pedal raises the router with an up cut spiral cutter and the dowel hole is made instantaneously.
> 
> http://www.routerforums.com/jigs-fixtures/4892-first-project-using-my-nikilift.html


Now it makes sense Harry. HD has a special no payments no intrest for 1 year on total purchase $300. So I decided on the PC 557 plate joiner. Of course I had to buy a 8" bench grinding wheel to take advantage of the special.:happy:

Thanks everyone for the help.


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

It is necessary every now and then to take the bull by the horns and splash out. You now have two more essential tools Barry that will soon make you wonder how you ever managed without them.


----------



## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

rwyoung said:


> OK, weird. I just clicked the link and it went to MY photo gallery instead. Very odd. :fie:


Yes - did that for me as well on Sunday.

James


----------



## Barry99 (Feb 10, 2009)

harrysin said:


> It is necessary every now and then to take the bull by the horns and splash out. You now have two more essential tools Barry that will soon make you wonder how you ever managed without them.


I am glad I did. When I was looking at biscuits, I was thinking #00 would be about the smallest size I would use. Got home to the project I am working on and found out I need #FF biscuits and of course the hardware stores were closed.


----------



## sometimewoodworker (Feb 13, 2009)

harrysin said:


> Barry, click on this link showing a small coffee table that I made, using my foot operated lifter. Once the wood is in position against the fence, a quick step on the pedal raises the router with an up cut spiral cutter and the dowel hole is made instantaneously.
> 
> http://www.routerforums.com/jigs-fixtures/4892-first-project-using-my-nikilift.html


Hi Harry
I have been looking hard and can't find any Photos of your lifter :cray:
Can you let me have a link please.


----------



## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

HI Jerome

Just a butt in post 

Here's some of them
Router Forums - View Single Post - My Frankenstein router table build
http://www.routerforums.com/jigs-fixtures/4892-first-project-using-my-nikilift.html

=======



sometimewoodworker said:


> Hi Harry
> I have been looking hard and can't find any Photos of your lifter :cray:
> Can you let me have a link please.


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Thanks for hopping in Bj. Jerome, this link should take you to the small photo shoot of me making the lifter from page #8. The original design was shown by Niki from Poland, it was basically made from sticks but worked perfectly. All that it does by simple levers is push the router UP when the pedal is pressed. Because I enjoy metalwork as well as woodwork, I decided to make mine a little more sophisticated but that really isn't necessary.

www.routerforums.com/general-routing/4666-back-japan.html


----------



## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Harry

Here's some more snapshots 

http://www.routerforums.com/table-mounted-routing/5211-router-lift-above-table.html

===========


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Thanks a million for those shots Bj, as you know, when Niki left the forum he took all evidence that showed he had ever been here. When doweling, unlike Niki, I do it in one single pass using an up cut spiral cutter and have never had a problem. I may one day add a hand adjuster for setting cutter height, but it would need a fast method to disengage it for foot use, probable a half nut arrangement as used on some routers.


----------



## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Harry

Many are still in place, but you need to look them up under simplenik


=======


----------



## sometimewoodworker (Feb 13, 2009)

Thanks for the links. I get the idea now.


----------



## sometimewoodworker (Feb 13, 2009)

harrysin said:


> Thanks a million for those shots Bj, as you know, when Niki left the forum he took all evidence that showed he had ever been here. When doweling, unlike Niki, I do it in one single pass using an up cut spiral cutter and have never had a problem. I may one day add a hand adjuster for setting cutter height, but it would need a fast method to disengage it for foot use, probable a half nut arrangement as used on some routers.


Hi Harry

Thanks for the links I get the idea now.

FWIW. You can still find Niki on the UKWorkshop forum

His latest is here.
Posted: Sun May 31, 2009 6:09 pm Post subject: Holding small parts on router table
Holding small parts on router table :: UKworkshop.co.uk


----------



## Noob (Apr 18, 2009)

sometimewoodworker said:


> Hi Harry
> 
> Thanks for the links I get the idea now.
> 
> ...


That Niki guy was gone before I showed up, but I've seen his stuff on other forums. On the Rigid tools one, someone put a lot of his jigs on one page (someone needs to do that with Bobj here lol):

Niki LINK

Not sure why he deleted all his pics on his posts here though. It's like a kid at the playground where you make him mad so he takes his ball and goes home so nobody can play, but maybe I'm stepping my boundary there...


----------



## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Paulo

It's no big deal but Niki did not remove them,,,he posted them on a off site for storage/viewing and the web site closed down and the pictures are gone...that's why it's best to post them to our site..RWS..




=========



Noob said:


> That Niki guy was gone before I showed up, but I've seen his stuff on other forums. On the Rigid tools one, someone put a lot of his jigs on one page (someone needs to do that with Bobj here lol):
> 
> Niki LINK
> 
> Not sure why he deleted all his pics on his posts here though. It's like a kid at the playground where you make him mad so he takes his ball and goes home so nobody can play, but maybe I'm stepping my boundary there...


----------



## Noob (Apr 18, 2009)

bobj3 said:


> Hi Paulo
> 
> It's no big deal but Niki did not remove them,,,he posted them on a off site for storage/viewing and the web site closed down and the pictures are gone...that's why it's best to post them to our site..RWS..
> 
> ...


Then I spoke wrongly of him and owe him an apology.


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

"Not sure why he deleted all his pics on his posts here though. It's like a kid at the playground where you make him mad so he takes his ball and goes home so nobody can play, but maybe I'm stepping my boundary there..."

Don't feel bad Paulo, there are members who posted on this forum, got the huff, picked up their ball and left, leaving nothing.

Thanks for that UK forum, whilst Niki is extremely clever, (he spent a lifetime in the aircraft engineering industry) and full of ideas, so many are overkill, taking a sledge hammer to crack the little old walnut.


----------

