# O.K., Jerry Has Another Question...



## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

Just wondering if most really smart and talented woodworkers like many of the members of this forum, change the blades on their TS when switching from cross cuts to rip cuts. I am not like some folks that have a large number of blades, I have a couple of less expensive Freud thin kerf blades that have gotten dull and are retired, I replaced the last one with the more expensive Fusion blade and it works fine for both rips and cross cuts, but it flutters to much for really accurate miter cuts. The other blade for the TS is the Forrest full kerf blade that I just talked about in the thread about needing to sharpen and/or clean the blade. I just started wondering if you folks with more experience switch out the blades on your saws as the need changes from cross cutting to ripping. I hadn't really thought of it until now as my blades do pretty well on both types of cuts, but now I'm wondering. Also, if I calibrate my LS system for one blade I would have re-calibrate after switching or just remember to off set on the scale to compensate on critical cuts. 

Jerry


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

Dunno how talented I am, but I have one blade. Supposedly a combination blade, and it works well enough for me.


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

JOAT said:


> Dunno how talented I am, but I have one blade. Supposedly a combination blade, and it works well enough for me.


The obvious question Theo is what blade do you have and use on your TS???


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## Gaffboat (Mar 11, 2012)

I guess my answer is: it depends. If I know I am going to be doing a lot of ripping and/or ripping long boards, the answer is yes I change to a ripping blade. If I'm just making a few short rips I don't [because I'm lazy:yes4:]. For what it's worth, I seem to get smoother rip cuts with the rip blade.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

I have always been in too much of a hurry to complete projects so I have always used blades with LOTS of teeth and have never changed blades when going from cross cut to ripping and the results have always been a planed-like surface.


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Lots of blades, types, sizes, etc. Many blade changes, but no a bother and natural to me.

For table saw-
I have blades for wood, plywood, veneer, malamine, mdf, ferrous, non-ferrous, plastics, etc.

I have combination blades, which I use on stock I'm not sure of and don't want to use a high-dollar blade on. It the case, brand doesn't matter and it's just rough cuts.

I have many crosscut blades in medium to ultra fine, all positive hook angled. I do not like thin-kerf blades. I have the HP and I don't like blade flex.

I have many rip blades. I also have high-end glue-edge rip blades.

I know what works best for my saws for the materials I use and how thick the material is that I'm cutting (how many teeth in the cut).

There are brands and blades I favor... but experience shows me, that one blade on one saw for one person may be great and go like gang-busters for them, while the same blade for another on another saw may be not so good. (like Jerry found between Forrest and Frued Commercial)...

I don't know. Maybe it's an old school thing that was drilled into me by "my" mentors, but... I agree with it-- A tool (or blade) designed for a specific purpose does work better that trying to use one tool (or blade) for all purposes. You can do it, but the quality suffers. Along with that- It's easier and less work to get quality from quality tools. Those tools don't have to be high dollar / just quality. And less work to do something with a tool that falls within it's intend purpose and design...


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

For most jobs I leave my rip blade on, a glue joint Freud blade. If I'm not sure about what I'm sawing into I put an old blade on. I don't do a lot of mitering on a table saw so for the miter saw I use miter saw blades. I bought some from Onsrud and they are the best I have ever used. I also have a melamine blade that only gets used on melamine or laminate. I don't use combo blades, they are by definition a compromise and not the best at ripping or crosscutting.


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> For most jobs I leave my rip blade on, a glue joint Freud blade. If I'm not sure about what I'm sawing into I put an old blade on. I don't do a lot of mitering on a table saw so for the miter saw I use miter saw blades. I bought some from Onsrud and they are the best I have ever used. I also have a melamine blade that only gets used on melamine or laminate. I don't use combo blades, they are by definition a compromise and not the best at ripping or crosscutting.


Charles,
It might just be because of my lack of experience but the Freud Fusion this kerf blade does a pretty darn good job or both cross cuts and rips, but flutters to much for critical miter cuts. As you may recall my thread some time back about cutting rings for bowels to be turned on a lathe, I could not get a six sided ring to be cut so that all of the parts fit with no visible gaps until I removed the thin kerf blade and put on the Forrest blade with a stablilzer. But for ripping cherry for example, it does a great job on cherry without burning and I like it for that reason. 

Jerry


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

Jerry Bowen said:


> The obvious question Theo is what blade do you have and use on your TS???


And the answer is:
A $10 blade from Big Lots maybe 5-6 years ago, and all the lettering is worn off.
But, it's carbide tipped, and works just fine. I always have been one to spend top dollar on my tools. 
:sarcastic:


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

Jerry Bowen said:


> As you may recall my thread some time back about cutting rings for bowels to be turned on a lathe,


:lol: :lol: Jerry, you need spellcheck.


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

JOAT said:


> :lol: :lol: Jerry, you need spellcheck.


ROTFLMAO! :jester: Bowel is a word and is spelled correctly... Just not the word I think he wanted to use. I think he meant "bowl".


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

After Jerry cuts out the bowels, what does he do with the corpse/????


Sorry, Jerry. You left yourself wide open. No offense intended.


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## greenacres2 (Dec 23, 2011)

Definitely not smart or experienced here--but I change between a handful of blades on the table saw. My old TS was a PITA to change blades on so I did it when I absolutely had to. The current saw--in just a few minutes I can swap out to the "correct" blade for the job. I will confess that if i'm making one cross-cut on the TS, i'll sometimes leave the 24T blade on. But for rip cuts--it's always with a rip blade. May not help reduce the risk of kick-back, but it can't hurt!!

I try to never turn my bowels on any tool--that's not on my bucket list!!

earl


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## Willway (Aug 16, 2012)

My main blade is a $20 'Irwin Marathon' combination thin kerf from Amazon. I have several other blades but this cuts as well as my so called finishing blades. But I use a set of 4 inch blade stabilizers to stop the flutter Jerry is talking about. The only disadvantage to using stabilizers is you should use a new zero clearance plate, because they will offset your blade 1/8 inch. I like my ZC plates to be exactly that, *Zero Clearance*. If anyone is interested here is a link to these blades they are a very good blade at a great price.

Irwin Industrial Tools 14070 10-Inch 40-Teeth 5/8-Inch Arbor Miter and Table Saw Blade - Amazon.com


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## rwbaker (Feb 25, 2010)

Jerry, if you have fluttering on a 10" blade you probably have more problems than what blade to use. At operating speed 4~5k rpm depending on brand of TS you should have no movement other than blade rotation. You might want to check bolts and nuts and wear. I've had friends swear by stabilizers until I start checking parts for additive wear and made a few corrections that eliminated the flutter and stabilizers. If you have flutter, step 1 is to rotate to blade 90 degrees on the spindle and make another cut - continue to do this until the full 360 degrees of blade vs arbor is accomplished. You should see a noticeable reduction a 1 point and this indicates that the 2 off balance points of arbor and blade are now opposite of the other. Even new machines can exhibit this problem.

Good Luck - Baker


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

I wonder if woodwork is discussed on forums for the English language!


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## MEBCWD (Jan 14, 2012)

Gaffboat said:


> I guess my answer is: it depends. If I know I am going to be doing a lot of ripping and/or ripping long boards, the answer is yes I change to a ripping blade. If I'm just making a few short rips I don't [because I'm lazy:yes4:]. For what it's worth, I seem to get smoother rip cuts with the rip blade.


When I was building custom aircraft cabinetry we had cross cut and rip blades for wood and blades for cutting aluminum and composite panels available and most of us changed blades according to the material and cut we were making, but some of the inexperienced builders would use what ever was on the saw. 

In my shop I keep a combination blade on the TS and only change it if I am making several rips, long rips, or am cutting aluminum or a different material that calls for a specific blade.


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

MAFoElffen said:


> ROTFLMAO! :jester: Bowel is a word and is spelled correctly... Just not the word I think he wanted to use. I think he meant "bowl".


Mike, I'm glad to know that you are paying attention to what I write. The only way that I know of to use spell check is to create my text in my e mail program and do the spell check there, then copy and paste it to the forum. If you have another suggestion, I'd like to hear about it. Yes, I did mean bowl, not bowel, I find that mis-spelled words by other members show up quite often. I have had to edit many of my posts after posting them as I see where I have made mistakes, but just don't catch sll of them. 

By the way, I often find that my computer will type over my letters when I am editing text. Went on line and found where it said to just press the function key to fix the problem, but this doesn't work for me, I'm running W7 as you know. Do you have any remedy for the problem, it sure is pain.

Jerry


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

Willway said:


> My main blade is a $20 'Irwin Marathon' combination thin kerf from Amazon. I have several other blades but this cuts as well as my so called finishing blades. But I use a set of 4 inch blade stabilizers to stop the flutter Jerry is talking about. The only disadvantage to using stabilizers is you should use a new zero clearance plate, because they will offset your blade 1/8 inch. I like my ZC plates to be exactly that, *Zero Clearance*. If anyone is interested here is a link to these blades they are a very good blade at a great price.
> 
> Irwin Industrial Tools 14070 10-Inch 40-Teeth 5/8-Inch Arbor Miter and Table Saw Blade - Amazon.com


Dick,
I think that you are imply that you use two stabilizers, one on each side of the blade, I was only using one and it, by itself will not eliminate the flutter in my experience, but maybe if I get a second one it will do the job, I like the way the thin kerf cuts, I

Jerry


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Jerry I bought a miter blade for a chop saw quite a while back. It had Delta's name on it and cost $60 so I thought it would do a good job but it didn't. I was cutting red oak at 45 deg and I could see the chatter marks across the cut. I added a pair of stabilizers and it solved the problem.

If you accidentally hit the "insert" key next to the backspace key I believe that will cause your computer to overwrite letters. When that happens try pressing the insert key again to turn it off and see if that works.


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## kp91 (Sep 10, 2004)

Jerry,

I only use combinaton blades, the quality of which I use depends on the material being cut. For 90% of the time I have a 10 x 40T or 10 x 50T general purpose blade. As long as they are sharp, they all seem to do a great job. I have made a lot of bad cuts with dull blades before I learned how valuable sharpening can be.

I do have more expensive blades, and if I'm doing a special project, they go into the saw.

I've got a variety of blades, of various prices, and they all cut about the same when sharp. Biggest difference is some are noticably quieter than others


My current arsenal is:
2 Craftsman Professional 10-40 $35
Leitz 10-40 (came with the saw)
2 Rigid 10-50 $22 on clearance sale (should have bought more...)
Forrest WW II 10-40 $5 at auction +$20 to sharpen (awesome blade)
Black and Decker Piranha 7 1/4-24T circular saw blade

Miter Saw
Stock blade that came with saw 80T not a bad blade
Freud 10" 60T (not the red ones) $50 Perfect cuts
Forrest Chopmaster 80T $10 @ auction... yes I know I'm lucky, I haven't had a need to put it in the saw yet.

For best results with the miter saw for 'special wood', a sacrificial table of 1/4 in MDF and a "fence" of 3/4 scrap gives zero tear out.

3-1/2 inch stabilizers (don't forget to adjust the cursor on the saw fence...)


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## AxlMyk (Jun 13, 2006)

I usually have a combo blade on it, but when I want a precise cut I'll switch to whatever the cut calls for.


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## whimsofchaz (Jun 6, 2013)

I don't know Jerry but I think cutting bowels I will leave to the doctor.


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

whimsofchaz said:


> I don't know Jerry but I think cutting bowels I will leave to the doctor.


I sure stepped into it this time didn't I. At least I know that my writing is being read and of course that makes me feel good, sooooo, thanks for letting me know that you are paying attention. (you don't suppose that I might have set a trap to find out if anybody would catch it ummmmm???) Of course i'm only jesting, it was just a error on my part, but the response has been rather funny, I'm afraid to try to spell humorus, wish there was spell check on this forum, I forget to type my text in another program and then paste it to the forum. Oh, well that's O.K.

Jerry


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

When I write on the forum, if I misspell something it gets underlined in red. If I right click on the word I get the correct spelling and options for other words. You aren't getting that Jerry? 

It wouldn't have helped you with "bowel". Bowel is a correctly spelled word, just not the one you meant.


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Jerry Bowen said:


> Dick,
> I think that you are imply that you use two stabilizers, one on each side of the blade, I was only using one and it, by itself will not eliminate the flutter in my experience, but maybe if I get a second one it will do the job, I like the way the thin kerf cuts, I
> 
> Jerry


Jerry,

I too was taught to use blade stabilizers (also called a blade dampener or stiffener) as a pair, putting 1/2 the pair on each side of the blade with the blade in between them.

I was taught that there is reason why they are sold and used in pairs of disks... 
(a) sandwiches the blade between the halves to help support and stiffen the blade. Common diameters of stabilizers are 3-1/2" to 5". In stiffening the blade it helps prevent flutter and vibration from harmonics. 
(b) It adds turning weight to the turning mass, with also helps to balance the blade as it turns. Like on most things you try to balance as it turns, you add that weight on both sides of the object. 

Online, I've seen stabilizers sometime sold as "one" disk... but in my honest opinion, that is only 1/2 of the required "set" and should be used as a pair. At least that's the way I was taught by my mentors... I don't see using it as 1 disk, without another being on the other side of the blade, and it being able to do it's job.

Thin-kerf blades are thin so that the cut is created by a thin tooth. For circular saws, they were designed and leveraged for TS'es with underpowered motors to help them cut better, but there is trade off because of the plate being thinner.(especially on miters) The reason stabilizers helps out a thin-kerf blade is that it stiffens up that thin plate. Some manufacturers get the accuracy back into their blades or prevent that flutter by machining a stabilizer into the plate.

Even though I don't use thin-kerf blades on my cabinet saw or panel saw, I do own some thin-kerf blades. If you need to do a better, good, clean miter... Prevent blade flex. Use a "pair" of stabilizers, a thicker blade plate or a blade with less diameter.

I once thought this was going from 12" to 10" or even down to 8" blades. "BobJ" once mentioned that he was using 6-1/2 blades on his table saw or his RAS as finish blades. Credit to him. I had never thought to go down that far... I took his suggestion and started using 5-1/2", 6-1/2", 7-1/4" blades... and you know what? Darn it if after playing with them, they are inexpensive and do a darn good job (within certain limits because of the size). I was pleasantly surprised.


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> When I write on the forum, if I misspell something it gets underlined in red. If I right click on the word I get the correct spelling and options for other words. You aren't getting that Jerry?
> 
> It wouldn't have helped you with "bowel". Bowel is a correctly spelled word, just not the one you meant.



Charles, 
Thanks for the tip on spelling, let me try it right now, it worked, thanks so much again.

Jerry
Sometimes it's better to be quiet and just look like a fool instead of opening one's mouth and dispelling all doubt.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Mike, I've seen Forrest recommend using just one stiffener and it doesn't make sense to me either. I always use them in pairs. Something a lot of people don't know is that the more teeth the blade has the more power is required to turn them. If you have an underpowered saw you are better off with a thin rim blade with only 18-24 teeth. I have one of those thin rim blades with the thicker center for better stability but it only has a 1" depth of cut.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Jerry Bowen said:


> Sometimes it's better to be quiet and just look like a fool instead of opening one's mouth and dispelling all doubt.


I wouldn't worry about it. English is the hardest language on the planet to spell and pronounce. You spelled it just like it sounded, particularly if you have a bit of Texas drawl.


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> I wouldn't worry about it. English is the hardest language on the planet to spell and pronounce. You spelled it just like it sounded, particularly if you have a bit of Texas drawl.


Charles, I understand all but the part about the Texas Drawl, I came from the north te years ago and still can't understand a lot of what my wife is saying, both her drawl and her terms, and/or expressions. I do try to use correct English and get my spelling correct, but like all of us, I'm not perfect and that goes for everything else in my life.

Jerry


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> Mike, I've seen Forrest recommend using just one stiffener and it doesn't make sense to me either. I always use them in pairs. Something a lot of people don't know is that the more teeth the blade has the more power is required to turn them. If you have an underpowered saw you are better off with a thin rim blade with only 18-24 teeth. I have one of those thin rim blades with the thicker center for better stability but it only has a 1" depth of cut.




Using the stiffeners in pairs makes a lot of sense. I only have one that I bought from Forrest when I bought blades from them. They did not mention buying more than the one, I didn't know any better. I used it on a full kert blade too, again in my ignorance, or I guess it was due to my ignorance about such things. Does using stiffeners on a full kert blade of no value. I do know that I could not make accurate 30 degree cuts until I used the full kerf blade with the stiffener, but don't know if the stiffener made any difference or not, I didn't try the cuts without the stiffener.

If I buy the second stiffener I'll have to make or buy a new blank TS insert in order to use it. There is just no end to the things to learn about is there.

Jerry


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Jerry Bowen said:


> Using the stiffeners in pairs makes a lot of sense. I only have one that I bought from Forrest when I bought blades from them. They did not mention buying more than the one, I didn't know any better. I used it on a full kert blade too, again in my ignorance, or I guess it was due to my ignorance about such things. Does using stiffeners on a full kert blade of no value. I do know that I could not make accurate 30 degree cuts until I used the full kerf blade with the stiffener, but don't know if the stiffener made any difference or not, I didn't try the cuts without the stiffener.
> 
> If I buy the second stiffener I'll have to make or buy a new blank TS insert in order to use it. There is just no end to the things to learn about is there.
> 
> Jerry


I know I ran the stiffeners for ripping using a thin kerf Freud when I wanted a smooth edge. I think that was before I got a jointer. I can't remember using them with a full kerf. For mitering with the chop saw I automatically put them on when I am making something like frames where the joint has to be smooth. I bought some Onsrud blades when they had them for sale on ebay and the one I tried makes the smoothest cut I've ever seen, at least on the crosscut. I haven't tried it on a miter where I needed accuracy yet. I would say that a really good, dedicated miter blade will do a better job than other blades will from what I've seen so far.


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Jerry Bowen said:


> Does using stiffeners on a full kerf blade of no value.


It may have value, but since a thicker blade may not have flex or be off balance, it may not help. Some of my blades have thicker plates that 1/8", are balanced, tensioned, copper expansion plugs, etc. and do not benefit, but "some" may. It then goes to what is acceptable...



Jerry Bowen said:


> If I buy the second stiffener I'll have to make or buy a new blank TS insert in order to use it.


If you already made a zero clearance blade insert and you made it for when the stabilizer is between the arbor flange and blade (offset about 1/8") then adding another to the other side of the blade (the arbor nut side) will not move the blade any more (It would still be the same).

Did you ever check your tune on your saw?


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

MAFoElffen said:


> It may have value, but since a thicker blade may not have flex or be off balance, it may not help. Some of my blades have thicker plates that 1/8", are balanced, tensioned, copper expansion plugs, etc. and do not benefit, but "some" may. It then goes to what is acceptable...
> 
> If you already made a zero clearance blade insert and you made it for when the stabilizer is between the arbor flange and blade (offset about 1/8") then adding another to the other side of the blade (the arbor nut side) will not move the blade any more (It would still be the same).
> 
> Did you ever check your tune on your saw?


Mike,
I understand. When I made the cut into my present insert, it was done without a stabilizer installed, so when I put it on I have to put it on the outside to keep the blade and slot in line on either a full or thin kerf blade, putting a stabilizer on the other side of the blade will offset the blade, thus the insert will have to be replaced. At least that is the way I see it right now. 

Jerry


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Jerry Bowen said:


> Mike,
> I understand. When I made the cut into my present insert, it was done without a stabilizer installed, so when I put it on I have to put it on the outside to keep the blade and slot in line on either a full or thin kerf blade, putting a stabilizer on the other side of the blade will offset the blade, thus the insert will have to be replaced. At least that is the way I see it right now.
> 
> Jerry


Jerry,

I understand now... and in that case, yes you would have to cut another zero clearance insert.


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## Willway (Aug 16, 2012)

Some plates are reversable, like my old Grizzly. You can just flip it end for end and cut another slot on the other side. This comes in handy, one slot for thin kerf and another for full kerf. Stabilizers don't have to be expensive either take a look........

http://www.amazon.com/Bosch-PROSTAB...d=1380221141&sr=8-5&keywords=blade+stabilizer


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

While the slot in my present ZC plate will work for both a full and a thin kerf blade, I found that the micro spliter wil not work with the thin kerf blade. I need to do some checking, maybe there is a splitter for the think kerf blade that fits the holes in the insert without buying another micro spliter and and new blank insert or of course could make one but sure don't want to spend the money for a completely new splitter. 

Jerry


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

*new blade.....*

After all this talk by Jerry and others about keeping blades clean, I decided to have a look at the blade on my 12" table saw.

Looked like a sharpen could be used and noticed that at least one carbide tooth was missing.

As this was the blade supplied with the saw, I decided it may not be worth the expense of repair and sharpen.

I was speaking with Mike today and he mentioned (as did a number of others) that the Freud range of blades have proven to be of quality. 

I went online and was able to find that the Australian Distributor was not to far away.

I am now the owner of a Freud LU2B 1100 72 tooth blade. With the Silver Ice Coating, it even looks faster/sharper....


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