# Assembling kitchen cabinets carcasses with biscuits..what you think?



## maurosnickare (Nov 18, 2011)

HI,
a question for you guys..how you judge a kitchen cabinet carcass assembled with biscuit joint?do you think is strong enough,even for a wall kitchen cabinet?i would like to hear your opinion about it..:yes4:


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## curiousgeorge (Nov 6, 2006)

In most cases biscuits are used for alignment and don't add much as far as strength to the joint. I would suggest using pocket screws for the stronger alternative.


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## maurosnickare (Nov 18, 2011)

Hi George,
thank you for your reply,is actually true what you said about biscuits,but i actually readed somewhere about a strenght test between joints and the biscuit joints went apart only after a big amount of force,for sure much more than the one applied in a everyday use,when in contact with glue the biscuit swell up quite much creating a good bond strong enough for a cabinet..adding a faceframe to the cabinet add quite a bit of strenght to the carcass also..


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## Semipro (Mar 22, 2013)

I would go with pocket holes, Strength easier to align no clamps. With biscuits glue clamps wait to continue to build immediately, now if you're going for aesthetics only and looks go with the biscuits. (Pocket holes the greatest invention to cabinetmakers)


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Extending the glue area... Where I use pocket holes... Etc...

True. Biscuits extend glue area... but as mentioned, they are used primarily for alignment... Remember that a biscuit is usually made from a pressed wafer, where the grain is compromised during than process.

True. Pocket holes are a joining technique.... And you better believe I clamp a joint together while I'm doing a pocket screw. If not, the angle of the screw will kick the opposite side while trying to get it together. And pocket joints, I still glue. Screws don't bend well, they break/shear. True that I don't have to leave the clamps on after it's screwed. That acts like a clamp to hold it while the glue is drying. But I usually leave clamps on, so it dries straight and square.

So... I use pocket holes in areas where they are not seen. May be just me, but I don't like pocket holes staring in my customers faces. That's not to say I don't use pocket holes, because I do. It's just "where" I use them in a cabinet that matters to me. 

So where do I use them in cabinets? On the back side of the faces to hold the rails to the stiles, which I them staple... (If not, then I use a loose tenon or dowels.) So those end up glued, pocket-screwed and stapled. On lowers, inside the carcass, just inside the top, I add a framework to help support the countertop, something for the counter substrate (if used) to screw into (or through this into the above) and to help keep the tops square. I don't use pocket holes very much at all in upper carcasses.

So how do I add strength and extend glue area? A lot of Spline and rabbet joints. Some doweling or loose tenons. Some bracing blocks (hidden) to help glue corners or to make faces "reface-able" (glued to one side, screwed to the other).

If a "blind side", a back side or is going to be skinned... then I screw through. (still glue) For strength for mounting, I add stringers or use a cleat system.

I use my biscuit joiner. But I have never used it on a cabinet. I've seen others use that technique and it was good for them, but maybe just my upbringing but... Just not right for me. I know that the "strength" there will be in the glued joint. It would be stronger than just a glued butt joint, but there are stronger methods.

Like I said... May be just me, but... I do tend to _try_ to build things to last.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

I guess I am the one oddball here. I would go with biscuits. I am not a big fan of pocket holes and screws. Too much trouble for not enough benefit in my opinion. Everyone is saying that biscuits are not that strong. Ever try and rip one in half? Where a face frame just glued and butt jointed to the carcass is usually strong enough, with biscuits it is probably 3 times as strong. Biscuits are fast, cheap, and easy and never show. Yes you do need to clamp but only for about an hour and I can usually keep busy that long.

I agree with Mike about splines, it is one of my favorite joining methods. Biscuits are just an interrupted spline.


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## AxlMyk (Jun 13, 2006)

Well, if biscuits aren't strong, my SS stand is in trouble.


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

AxlMyk said:


> Well, if biscuits aren't strong, my SS stand is in trouble


I _really_ like that! Looks very good.


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## Semipro (Mar 22, 2013)

Back to the orginal question yes biscuits are strong enough for cabinets


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

I guess my question would be, strong enough for what?
The bottom cabinet gables are sitting on the base/floor and screwed to each other and the wall. The back ties all the components together. Glue on the *8' x 3/4" of rebate *, and nailed or screwed through (except on the finished exposed portions of end gables) makes an extremely strong structure. Especially once the units are assembled together and a top applied. Unless you want to park your D 9 on top, everything in addition is overkill. 
Modern glue is powerful stuff when applied correctly; it's likely that an MDF gable would break before the glue joint did.


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Snickare85 said:


> _do you think is strong enough,even for a wall kitchen cabinet?_


And this is where that changes Dan. 

Everything from that part of his question then "hinges" (pun intended) from screws going through the backs into studs... and how that back is held together from there. 

Notes to myself (thinking):
Some strength is added by the face frames screwed together. If you add nailers to screw through and anchor those nailers to the sides... Why? Because weight on the bottom and any shelves then pull on those sides, which are pulling on the back and nailers add more strength.


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## Botelho007 (Sep 23, 2012)

Comparison of the strength of the biscuit can be measured as follows:
With dowels builds a chair, with biscuits is not possible.

For build the structure of the cabinets are more suitable the dowels.

Set biscuits and dowels are great for fitting parts.


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## maurosnickare (Nov 18, 2011)

problem with the dowels is that are not so easy to allign them and any small error make impossible the assembling..they are quite time consuming also..especially if you must make many cabinets..in big workshop they have a machine that can cut many holes in the same time ,but is nothing that a small workshop or a hobby shop can afford..


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## Botelho007 (Sep 23, 2012)

For a small joinery jig Dowelmax ensures this accuracy and speed for drilling and assembly of cabinets.

Dowelmax Precision Engineered Multiple Dowel Wood Joinery System for Furniture Projects


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

AxlMyk said:


> Well, if biscuits aren't strong, my SS stand is in trouble.


There are 2 beauties in that picture, the scroll saw and the stand. I really like the design, very stylish.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Claudio is correct about dowels being a good way to join the parts together. I'm not sure they are better than biscuits but maybe as good. As pointed out, the issue with dowels is getting them lined up but that problem can be overcome very easily with some scrap ply or mdf and these items Bushings and Inserts - Lee Valley Tools
You can make a very simple jig with these that will guarantee alignment and the inserts and bushings are cheap. They are also good for making shelf pin hole jigs.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Miks added, "Everything from that part of his question then "hinges" (pun intended) from screws going through the backs into studs... and how that back is held together from there. "

Absolutely! I took the nailers as a given...my bad. With the gables through screwed into the top and bottom nailers, and also glued to the top and bottom panels (edge of nailer)
...I put my nailers inside the cabinet carcase, with the back on last...the cabinet isn't going _anywhere_ once it's mounted. In 3 1/2 decades, I've never seen a wall cabinet slip, once mounted (and fully loaded with kitchen stuff.
At a certain point all this extensive extra work delays the objective of getting the cabinets built and installed. Unfortunately, I know of situations where hubby started one of these major renos, which dragged on and on and on...marriage breakup resulting (probably not the only reason, but not helping either).
A full kitchen's assortment of cabinets takes up a LOT of floorspace until they're installed, and you can't install them until they're built!
Once you take the existing ones down, the clock's ticking on Wifey's patience...


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## maurosnickare (Nov 18, 2011)

actually for attach the wall cabinets to the stud,i usually go for the traditional method of the 45 degree stripe of wood screwed to the 3/4 inch plywood back of the cabinet,another strip of wood is attached to the wall and as the opposite angle cut at 45..this make a very strong hanging sistem..http://www.brendamcmahon.com/?nav=faq from this picture you can understand better the simple sistem,but i usually put the stripe flush with the edges of the cabinet and not outside..by the way,nice scrollsaw..is a vintage Delta?


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Right- A French cleat... persay.

Your comments on and fears on dowels. They are not tooled as a tight tight fit. You leave room for glue, which also leaves you some leeway to that fitting. Dowels are just another loose tenon. If you made the joint too tight, you wouldn't get a good glue joint adhesion.

You get strength with a loose tenon as the loose tenon is long grain glueing to long grain. I dowel even with using melamine, mdf or particle board. Not really gluing long grain together but is strong. 

Doing loose tenons, like many other things = It just takes practice with "whatever" you use. Once you get it down, then it takes the mystery out of it. Say you didn't have a jig and did it old school with doweling plugs and drill-bit stops. You lay your first holes out and drill. Put in the plugs, press the sides together to get the mating holes. You drill the mating holes. Not much mystery to that is there? A jig? Lay out your holes in one side and get the mating side lined out to mate. Little harder as you have to be a little more accurate in your layout. That is some people's strength or weakness. Drilling is easy.

Loose tenons and M&T, just a step up. Not really much more than laying out for biscuits. Biscuits could be classed as either an interrupted spline (as Charles noted) or as a loose tenon. You may have just a a bit more slack in if you are on or not, but the same... principles and techniques. It's just that I feel biscuits, how they are made, are compromised long grain tenon's. I use them for "aligment" and holding delicate things together for and extended period of time (millwork and trim).

For me, splines and rabbets make it more like a snap together model. I admit, in interlocking joints and joining there is less room for being off. It is stronger. But with any cabinet, where it is going to make or break it, is is your layout... then in your tooling.

I just read an article where cabinetry companies are marketing "Ready to Assemble" (RTA) custom cabinets... shipped unassembled, interlocking joints already tooled to assemble onsite. Are you visual? This is the video that accompanied the article. (I follow cabinetry trade media):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_h9BUsTGqj0

I'm not advocating that you to rush out and buy their's (I know nothing of that company)... and this is not a new concept... I just posted that as an example for you to look at the joining used and the assembly of the finished pieces. 

You "do" with what you have, what you can afford and what you can do with the skills you possess and feel comfortable with. Once you plan out what you will do, you have to lay it out. If you lay it out accurately, then the tooling of that will be more accurate and easier to do. Match sides together before tooling to ensure that it will work. Understand how the "forces" will act on it and pull on it to see if it will be strong for your application. Know your tooling techniques and practice with them before you start cutting real stock. Tool your stock. Pre-assemble to ensure everything with mate together... If not, adjust.

If you have a sound plan, do everything in your prep and followed your plan into your tooling, it should go together just like that video... If not, there was something wrong with the plan, your layout or your tooling... Right?

You asked for advice and recommendations. Your choice in what "you" do is personal to you and your circumstances. That decision is yours.

If you are really curious, look in the phone book for a local custom cabinetry shop. Look at their construction. Look at the ranges of price and look at the joining techniques that comprise those higher end cabinets. Ask questions. It doesn't cost to ask. Ask what makes their cabinets better and stronger. Say you can't afford, but are asking to learn. People like to talk about their work. Ask if they could do any tooling you don't have the tools for or skill for... (You don't have to commit to anything, but that may open "opportunities" that may be helpful and leave that door open for you.)


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## CharleyL (Feb 28, 2009)

For a fast, accurate, and strong way to assemble cabinets I've tried most everything. About 8 years ago I watched Marc Sommerfeld's videos on his method of using tongue and groove router bits to assemble cabinets and I was really impressed. I bought the tongue and groove bit set from him and have used these bits and his methods ever since. Pocket screws are used where they won't be seen and can even be used with the tongue and groove method where needed and where they won't be seen when the cabinet is completed. His method has made a huge difference in the quality of my cabinets and I build them faster than I did before using his methods.

Watch this video package and I think you will agree with me. Other brands of router bits can be used for this, but I like the quality of his bits and the support that is available for them.

Charley

Sommerfeld's Tools for Wood - Cabinetmaking Made Easy with Marc Sommerfeld - Part 1 - YouTube


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Great concept, Charley!
On the OP's original post, he was (as Mike pointed out, in answer to my original response) talking about wall hung cabinets. In the simplest terms weight is applied to the shelves and bottom panel, transferred to the side gables and then to the nailers and on into the wall. The only real heavily loaded joint is the nailer to gable connection.
If the top panel were to be T&G'd onto the sides, all the weight would then be carried across onto the top edge of the upper nailer; a very desirable effect!
In addition it'd sure make glue up a lot simpler alignment wise, eh?


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Something like this maybe?


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## PaulH (May 30, 2012)

Attached pic is all built with biscuits.


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## CharleyL (Feb 28, 2009)

Yes, biscuits will work but I've found that they don't produce joints that are as tight or accurate as the Sommerfeld system, so you spend more time fitting and clamping to get your cabinets assembled square and tight when using them. Both methods will make very strong cabinets. To me, the Sommerfeld system does a much better job with less assembly labor. If cost is a factor, there are other companies making the same router bits for less money, even cheaper than a biscuit joiner. I'm just convinced that his tongue and groove method of making cabinets is superior because it produces cabinets that fit together more precisely and with less assembly labor than any other method that I have used, and I've been building cabinets for 40+ years. 

Charley


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

CharleyL said:


> Yes, biscuits will work but I've found that they don't produce joints that are as tight or accurate as the Sommerfeld system, so you spend more time fitting and clamping to get your cabinets assembled square and tight when using them. Both methods will make very strong cabinets. To me, the Sommerfeld system does a much better job with less assembly labor. If cost is a factor, there are other companies making the same router bits for less money, even cheaper than a biscuit joiner. I'm just convinced that his tongue and groove method of making cabinets is superior because it produces cabinets that fit together more precisely and with less assembly labor than any other method that I have used, and I've been building cabinets for 40+ years.
> 
> Charley


Bickering... Comparing apples to oranges... I sit here biting my lip and grinding my teeth... I usually answer by providing info to a person, enough for them to make their own decision, based on what things are, how they work and their own needs. Especially on things that are subjective... I am confused by the back and forth.

Okay-- Here is where I have to draw some lines in the sand and be more specific to my previous post. Reason? Seemingly misleading literal statements implying that biscuit joints are not easy to do, not accurate and not strong. I guess I need to be more specific in what Biscuit joining is and isn't. (I did that for dowels... only fair to do that for Biscuits.) The OP asked which was stronger out of two specific joining techniques, for a specific purpose... Charley, I'm with you and I mentioned that (compound spline joints) but that was not the question. (biscuits or dowels)

As with others here, working professionally as a "Finish Carpenter"... In other parts of the world, that job is called a "Joiner". With the job title, you would assume that we get experience in putting things together and tearing various things apart. That assumption might be right, just with the on-hand experience working with. As a cabinet maker... then as a Master Carpenter... then I had to teach apprentices "things" so they could apply it to their craft and be able to do work for me and make me money.

- Biscuit joints are stronger than stand-alone glued butt joints. Biscuits and dowels are forms of loose tenons. There are stronger ways of joining. But each has it's own place and time in application. 

- Accuracy? We used biscuit joiners on high-end architectural casing moudlings when the value was above $1 mil. That's when accuracy on miters stepped up from a stand-alone glued butt joint to having to last longer. Accuracy is implied into the finished joint, how it results... but it was easier to get it accurate, because there was more support, while being supported to dry. At between $3-4 mil, we moved away from biscuit joining and stepped up again to keyed or M&T casing joints.

- With practice, biscuit joints are fast and easy to prepare and do. You do have to clamp while drying, as you have to do with other forms of joining. (And a screw, bracket or brace can be translated as a literal form of clamp.) There is less accuracy needed in tooling than need for doweling, other loose tenons or M&T joints. 

-Tearing apart joints are a good indicator of how strong a joining technique is. You want to see the strength in something, see how much it takes to make a specific joint type fail. Butt joints are easier to tear apart, when less damage occurring to the adjacent pieces than ones joined with a loose tenon. In steps of easier to tear apart and damage done, with specific loose tenons- biscuits, dowels, standard loose tenons, keys. Then above those- mortise and tenon --and-- various levels of spline joining techniques <> depending how each is done and done to what level.

-- This may cause controversy and discussion, but I'm saying it as I see it. Set apart and "beside" loose tenon joining would be pocket holes. I put that type of joining rated in strength above butt joints and below low-end loose tenons, but I set it apart as a technique to be used where it is not seen. IMHO <> "I call it as I see it." Physics and practice do not lie. You have a butt joint glued, with an angled screw going through it... usually from the offside angle. Any claims beyond that in the world of reality are marketing hype. There is no magic that extends the laws of physics with that. 

-- Some people over-use pocket-hole techniques as a "joining technique catch-all." My challenge to others is to tear apart various joining techniques and compare each to other techniques to decide for yourself where each falls in with each other. Call that as a part of your personal education. Then you can judge each in your own more realistically and be un-bias in your decision. ...And to keep in mind, that joining's goal is too create an appropriately strong joint, that is not visually distracting. The more you add to a joint to extend glue area adds to it's strength, but adds to the cost in skill level needed to create it and the cost to create it. Tooling does (skill to be able to do that tooling and "wear and tear" of that individual tooling) does factor into what it costs to create a joint. You have to pay for that tooling's upkeep and maintenance, to keep it around and pay for itself... As you create a differing angle and surface to extend that to extend that glue surface (differing levels of spline joints), it is stronger, but the cost to create it goes up.

Which is "better" is personal and objective. They are just _different_ than each other. Each has it's place and time. Each is on a scale of what it takes to make it fail. Some are the same in functionality, but different in how it is applied. But going along with that scale is the effort it takes to do that kind of joining, how easy, hard or the skill level it takes to join that together... and the cost of time and effort it takes to accomplish as you go up that scale. Each, based on that level, has a measure of how easy it is to get and keep a level of accuracy. Each has a place and time appropriate to itself based on how "much" is appropriate to the level of cost it took to create it. Quality and accuracy is on a sliding scale and is judged by who the owner (end user) will be and how it is judged as being "good enough."

*** Sometimes an unglued butt joint with a couple nails is appropriate and good enough. <-- Just who is that authority that judges when that is true or not true, when that matters or not. ***

Sometimes as craftsmen, the only one that will know what is inside of something or what it took to create it... is us. (Excluding dovetails, box joints and finger joints, that are visually seen.) We will appreciate the work it took to do it. The customer usually just see's what is visual to them and appreciates that something lasts and does not fall apart.

EDIT-- Another factor on the other side of what I've said... Some people have an easier time of creating a good biscuit joint than with making a good dowel joint. Taking that into consideration = a good biscuit joint may be stronger than a bad dowel joint... And a good pocket hole joint could be stronger than a bad loose tenon joint. Etc.

Carpentry Riddle: "What is stronger- a house or a chair?"


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