# what am i doing wrong



## Matthieu van Kints (Apr 23, 2016)

Hey guys, 

I am fairly new to routering but have done a fair amount for a project that i've been working on. besides some minor errors that i easily found the cause for i have a major problem which keeps me puzzeled. 

i'm not sure how to explain but while using a tool to passer out some circles sometimes the bit "bites" in, ripping the wood fibres apart. this ony happens every quarter of the piece.. it does so with hugh force so there is no way of controling or preventing it. 

I have a 6 bit set but for now' i've only used the 6 mm straight flute. 
and i've done mainly circles (needed these for my current project). 
so i though i got fairly adepted with it, and theses bite ins got "solved" after some "experience". Or so i though. but i needed some new circles,, larger diameter (21cm radius now) and it happened again. so maybe it only happens when routing with new sharp bits??

the bits i have are fom a set delivered with the router makita rt0700cx3j. am doubtfull it is makita but it did seem to be of fair quality. Lets' say it this way. my dull 6mm flute now still routers better then a brand new 6mm flute that came with a set from a friend of mine. but in time i will go and spend money on good bits.

since neither was now an option i choose to use the new sharp 12 mm bit instead of the dull 6mm. I use the router the correct direction (i believe) clockwise.. around the circle. used as much outward and downward force as i could master. 
but it just ripped my plate apart. please see images. 

can anyone explain how to solve this issue? what am i doing wrong. 

Kind regards matthieu


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Wait, are you talking about a table mounted router or handheld?
If handheld you should be going from Left to Right, with the blank in front of you, and the router between you and it.
Have you presawn the shape almost to it's finished size...maybe an 1/8" over size?
Are you using a template, and a bit with a bearing?
There has to be some method of preventing the bit from biting too deeply(?)...

More info please, Matthieu.
But you're absolutely correct; it's not supposed to do that!


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Matt..
you need a new quality bit...
suggest Freud..

are you using a template or a circle jig and asking the router to do all of the cutting or only trimming to size w/ it??

also learn to ''read'' the grain.. (you have cross/end grain tear out)...
rough cut your circle to the finished sized a lot closer so you have way less material to trim...
you may not be cutting in the correct direction..
you may have to ''climpb cut those sections that are tearing out...


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

DaninVan said:


> Wait, are you talking about a table mounted router or handheld?
> If handheld you should be going from Left to Right, with the blank in front of you, and the router between you and it.
> Have you presawn the shape almost to it's finished size...maybe an 1/8" over size?
> Are you using a template, and a bit with a bearing?
> ...


those burns appear to be pauses...
sloppy circle jig???


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

And I would add, possibly you are going too fast. As the world class router Elmer Fudd once said, "Go Swow, vewy, vewy, swow.".
:laugh2:
I've never done a circle that large, but numerous straight pieces. I also use a 1" template/master when I rout. I found out long ago, the closer you can rough cut to the line, the better off you are. But at times I can't get closer than maybe 1/2", so then it pays big time to just take tiny cuts, slowly, and just a tiny bit at a time. Usually, if I could have rough cut to maybe 1/16" to 1/8", I could have pretty well zipped along. 

Oh yes, I would also pick some cheap wood to practice on first, rather than your expensive piece.


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## Semipro (Mar 22, 2013)

to route that particular piece of wood you need to route in both directions part of the circle needs to be routed one way and the rest of the circle easy route of the other direction it depends on which way the grain is running your your tear out you needed routed the other direction.


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## Matthieu van Kints (Apr 23, 2016)

@ DaninVan: it's a makita rt0700. so a handheld one and using not a template but a "circle jig" which came with the toolset. seems to be quite stable. 

@ Stick486: well as mentioned the bit i used (12mm bit) is a new sharp bit. 
I'm askind the router to do all the cutting. slowly dropping the bit every round about a millimeter. But looking at your template.. i've been moving the wrong direction.. i moved clockwise. looking at the template.. this goes anti-clockwise. 

About cutting only a trimming. i had bad experieces with that, it acts mostly bad in the parts where the bit isn't fully cutting it's diameter (being economic and starting close to the edge). but this all could be the 'cause by going bad direction. i will have to try it again tomorrow. but i'll go and buy a new flute 6mm tomorrow. i believe 12mm is to big to my liking anyway. 

also.. indeed it goes quick.. kinda pulling itself forward. again also likely due to bad direction. but definately not pauzes. 
do keep in mind. it is bamboo, hard and difficult material.. 

@ Joat: 
indeed, as mentioned above. likely to fast due to the wrong direction. i'll give it a try on the same piece tomorrow, in the other direction. see how that will work. 

Thanks to all of you. kind regards. 

Matthieu


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## Semipro (Mar 22, 2013)

*Direction*

this part need to change Router direction,
THIS IS A CLIMB CUT


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Semipro said:


> this part need to change Router direction,
> THIS IS A CLIMB CUT


agreed..


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## hawkeye10 (Jul 28, 2015)

I may be wrong as usual but it looks to me besides routing the wrong way on part of the circle you are taking heavy cuts. There are some real heavy gouges so that is what I am basing my opinion on. As others have said cut close to the line as you can get without touching it then take very light passes. Like 1/16" or 1.5875 mm. I had to look that up. :smile: Try once you start to not stop routing until you are finished. If you stop there will be a burn or mark. That is easier said than done. Try doing some practice on something else so you will gwt the feel of it.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Geez I've done tons of circles but with mdf and they all came out smooth as heck. Never tried plywood , but wonder if it would be an issue . I can't get over how rough yours turned out . Makes no sense to me other than a very dull bit or going way to fast. But your claiming your only going down a little each pass and going slow so I'm not getting it


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Matthieu van Kints said:


> @DaninVan: it's a Makita rt0700. so a handheld one and using not a template but a "circle jig" which came with the toolset. seems to be quite stable.
> @Stick486: well as mentioned the bit I used (12mm bit) is a new sharp bit.
> I'm asking the router to do all the cutting. slowly dropping the bit every round about a millimeter. But looking at your template.. I've been moving the wrong direction.. i moved clockwise. looking at the template.. this goes anti-clockwise.
> 
> ...


 @Stick486:.. after that much burn and as abrasive as bamboo is I'd seriously doubt it's sharpness...
yes, counter clockwise is the direction you want to cut....
going the wrong way and the direction bit spin is causing the ''pull''....

cut as much waste away that is possible and clean up w/ the router..
get another bit...


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## Semipro (Mar 22, 2013)

@ Rick
here is a picture ( the grain changes on the down hill lifting the grain)


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

another thought...
the bottom side splintering is from ''break out''...
the cutter didn't extend far enough below the bottom of your disk...


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## Matthieu van Kints (Apr 23, 2016)

@ Rainman 2.0
MDF is indeed simple as hell. done some routing there too, no grain so no issue. bamboo is VERY splintereym hard and oily. specially compared to MDF. totally different spectrum. but that is the issue. i did plenty disk this same way. perfectly in bamboo. just with the 6mm bit. 

but i'm feeling a bit confused. seems like there is some contracting information or i'm just understanding it wrong. 

Some people say to go full circle counter clockwise. other people say to go two directions (half / half? or per quarter? ) also.. not to stop. but how can i not stop if i need to drop the bit for the next movement or not do circles in one go. even with years of practise i just can't imagine how to do that in one go without stopping. 
also dropping the bit for the next level. I can't do that while moving. specially as the router is shortly "loose" in it's mounting during the mm drop. 

anyway. i'll go and try out some more on this allready wrecked piece
but please explain more on the bit per bit issue and counter clockwise. 

Kind regards 

Matthieu


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

go full depth...
start at the section you want to go clockwise and start there at it's top side...
do the the CW cut as far as you need to and w/o really truly stopping change direction and go full circle CCW...
slow cutter speed and slow easy travel = more burn....

do you have a jigsaw or a bandsaw???


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## Semipro (Mar 22, 2013)

@ Matthieu
it doesn't make any difference which direction you go when your dealing with grain somewhere on the circle the bit is going the wrong direction and lifting the grain, causing tear out.
it is all about bearing rotation


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## MEBCWD (Jan 14, 2012)

This post from 2012 may help ... see my answer

http://www.routerforums.com/router-bits-types-usage/33080-bit-use.html


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

*Doin' The Jig*



Semipro said:


> @ Matthieu
> it doesn't make any difference which direction you go when your dealing with grain somewhere on the circle the bit is going the wrong direction and lifting the grain, causing tear out.
> it is all about bearing rotation


John; he's not using a bearing bit, or if it is it isn't a factor. He's using an accessory circle jig (beam compass style).
Creeping up on the final circumference should be straightforward.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

DaninVan said:


> John; he's not using a bearing bit, or if it is it isn't a factor. He's using an accessory circle jig (beam compass style).
> Creeping up on the final circumference should be straightforward.


he's using a plunge ½'' straight bit...


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Matt as mentioned when you cross end grain you will likely get tearout. Some of the issues are that you are using a circle jig. You can't climb cut using a circle jig, you have to go counterclockwise. If you were using a template and bearing guided bit you could try to climb cut the end grain parts because if there is too much force the router will simply push away from the template and all you have to do is make more passes until the circle is cut at those places.

The problem arises because when going in the normal routing direction as the bit cuts the cutter edge is moving away from your work (drawing a picture of this may help to understand it). When you climb cut, the edge of the cutter is cutting pointed into the work. The fact that the cutter is pointed into the work prevents it from ripping fibre loose.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

"...You can't climb cut using a circle jig, you have to go counterclockwise."
-Charles

Did not know this; please explain, Charles.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Dan if you are climb cutting as you know the bit wants to self feed. But it is also trying to push the bit away from the work. If you are working handheld that's not a problem. As it self feeds and pushes itself away from the work it just winds up following the edge of the workpiece. If you are using a circle cutter it will self feed and may not allow the router to push away if the operator can't control the self feeding issue (which is highly likely as I've never been able to do it except where nibbling away at a corner to prevent tearout). Some of what I saw in the OP's pictures would appear to account for this.

When you use a circle jig and go in the proper counterclockwise direction there is resistance to the forward force which the operator has to overcome. Although the force of the bit is pushing inward there is no tendency for the router to self feed so the operator is able to control that inward force with appropriate feed speed. Does that explanation work for you?


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

Long ago, in a far distant galaxie, there was a time or two I had problems with some weird South American wood I picked up from somewhere. Routed as best I could, but made the final cut to the line with a sander. It worked, but took time, and careful sanding. That's an option, but not highly recommended, kind of a last ditch thing. In the end it really wasn't worth the time and effort to use that wood again. Never tried bamboo, and don't plan on it.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Thanks, Charles. Sort of what I figured but I just assumed one would be able to control that self feeding tendency. Don't think I'll try it... :


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Climb cutting is a common practice in milling metal and will often result in a superior finish but that also involves using a milling lineal/cross feed table which has enough gear reduction to prevent self feeding so it works fairly well in that circumstance. When you are working with a two hp plus router by hand it doesn't work that well. I was only a fraction of a horsepower when I was young. Less so now.


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## MascaraSnake (Jul 26, 2010)

I do a similar circle many many times & can vouch for the best method if using a handheld router: a good quality 12mm bit, not a 6mm: there is flex in a 6mm which is one reason for the juddering (& it may well snap too). 2ndly not a 12mm x 25mm, but a 12 x 15mm (or so I cant remember exactly the fig, a stubbier one anyway): stubbier one also mititgates against flexing as much as poss. If you go wider say a W15mm you are taking out too much & its a a chore (albeit a more solid bit, bit its a little ott, maybe best for hardwood).

Ok then obviously clamping the outer section & also tapping in 3 pins within the centre cutout section, into the flat wood surface below to hold your router exactly centrepoint/ centrally with no shifting about at all (another cause of juddering maybe).

Then in steps of 3mm, clockwise. Also make sure the centrehole is really perfect fit to the pivot point. I drill a quick hole which matches the pivot point width, 3mm or so.. then firm tap the pivot home onto it before attatching router on. 5 min job for a 10-3/4" cutout in 12mm bbply.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> Dan if you are climb cutting as you know the bit wants to self feed. But it is also trying to push the bit away from the work. If you are working handheld that's not a problem. As it self feeds and pushes itself away from the work it just winds up following the edge of the workpiece. If you are using a circle cutter it will self feed and may not allow the router to push away if the operator can't control the self feeding issue (which is highly likely as I've never been able to do it except where nibbling away at a corner to prevent tearout). Some of what I saw in the OP's pictures would appear to account for this.
> 
> When you use a circle jig and go in the proper counterclockwise direction there is resistance to the forward force which the operator has to overcome. Although the force of the bit is pushing inward there is no tendency for the router to self feed so the operator is able to control that inward force with appropriate feed speed. Does that explanation work for you?


all these years and now the why for how come...
thanks Charles..


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

So, a solution might be to use the router's circle accessory to cut a plywood/MDF template the correct size. Then use it as a two-sided-taped-down pattern to rout the actual wood top, using a straight bit with a bearing against the template(?) 

Mattieu; I'm not sure if you addressed the issue of first jigsawing/bandsawing the disc to the size you want _plus an 1/8" over_. (Say 21.1cm for a final size of 21cm?)


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## Spikey1973 (Jun 19, 2016)

Hey quys, 

thanks for all your responses. all though i do believe there are different solutions handed to me i will have to pick one, and sorry for the rest but i think it's best to follow charles. 
just to be sure i get things right the way you mean it i make a quick summary. can you please confirm / disconfirm this for me charles?

1) going Counter clockwise! this way i will have parts where i will do a climb cut. (which is not good in this particular situation) but due to the direction of the counter clockwise direction there will not be an issue of self feeding (which there most definately was) so less of the burns. (burns being the grabbing in to the wood grain?)
2) use a new sharp bit
3) i'm confused on the 6mm vs 12mm choice and the coming from the top falling down vs precutting (i do have a jigsaw but I do NOT have a router table and no place to put one so that is not much of an option) and coming from the side part.

my personal experience is with the first, coming from the top and had oke experience with that before. although the other option might be better i think i would feel more comfortable with this more familiar option but call out on me if you feel this would be a stupid choice. i als believe this would be better as i'd like a jig with a set of holes rather then a sliding setup jig. feels more precise. Combining this with the previous point of doubt. is it oke to assume that a 12 mm short / stubby one would be better for 'coming from the side' and a 6mm one for 'coming from the top'?, needing to cutless.. is this correct? 

about the final end bit.. this is not much of the real problem. i just took the last step to small, since the thickness of the board is not 100% equal over the boards the was a misjudgement of the how much i needed for the last step but this was more like an error in judgement rather then a real thing going wrong. 

besides that. i feel like i have not much faith in the circilar jig supplied to me, specially as the pivit point hole is 7mm. a large and odd size hole (not fitting like m6 or m8). i will make myself one to the perfect size from wood with a much smaller hole. 

am is still going wrong on anything here? ifso please correct me. 
anyway. i'll first go for a few test rusns on the now allready wasted board. although i might try to just take 5mm of the edge. if it comes out perfectly then then i will still be able to use it. (again in this particulare case.. from the top or the side. 

kind regards, and many thanks. 

Matthieu

ps: i just registered as i'm not at home and therefor not on my own pc. so i couldn't register with facebook. so i might look as someone else but i'm the OP


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## Spikey1973 (Jun 19, 2016)

tried it.... and near perfection  

ofcourse this one is now a bit smaller then initially intended but i'll see. maybe i'll like it and then i'll use it. maybe not and then i'll make another one. for now this was a good try and i'll make 3 more. 

thank you guys for all your advise!


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Spikey1973 said:


> tried it.... and near perfection
> 
> ofcourse this one is now a bit smaller then initially intended but i'll see. maybe i'll like it and then i'll use it. maybe not and then i'll make another one. for now this was a good try and i'll make 3 more.
> 
> thank you guys for all your advise!


if you like what you have but 's too small and you want larger use it as a template/pattern...
only change the size of you guide bearing to a larger one...
or use a a large guide bushing sized to get where you want......


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Spikey1973 said:


> Hey quys,
> 
> thanks for all your responses. all though i do believe there are different solutions handed to me i will have to pick one, and sorry for the rest but i think it's best to follow charles.
> just to be sure i get things right the way you mean it i make a quick summary. can you please confirm / disconfirm this for me charles?
> ...


Sorry for not responding Matt, I'm doing a bathroom renovation and it's keeping me busy. This is a good explanation of climb cutting by Lee Valley Tool company. If you are working free hand then you will not be climb cutting if you stay with a counter clockwise feed. There will be spots on a wooden circle where you will likely get rough grain and it will be where you are going crossways on end grain. In the article by Lee Valley the illustrations showing climb cutting start at #4. Remember that when routing with a table mounted router that the rotation is reversed as you look down on it. Lee Valley Tools - Routing: Climb Cut vs. Conventional Cut


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