# How much for electricians?



## r32 (Feb 19, 2010)

Ok, so I'm finally getting closer to those summer projects I want to start. The weather has turned to spring conditions, it's cool outside and now is the time to get started. (I'm total newbie to woodworking).

I'm looking at spending about $1.5k-2k on a new tablesaw, but of course now I'm realizing I need 220v receptacle in my house garage.

So what I want to know is, how much should I expect to pay in Central CA, for an electrician to come do this for me?

I have a run-of-the-mill cookie cutter home built about 7yrs ago in a standard residential neighborhood. Nothing fancy.

I need two 220v receptacles wired in there for tablesaw, etc, along with probably four standard 110v receptacles on the walls and maybe two more on the ceiling.

What kind of price should I expect to pay for hiring an electrician to take care of this? Naturally (murphy's law in full effect) the damn box on the opposite side of the house than the garage. I have no idea what a going rate for this kind of project would be, or how much time it should take?

Is there anything I could do before, to save money?


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

Michael....

how many open breakers do you have in your electrical panel for starters?

b


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## r32 (Feb 19, 2010)

Ok, don't laugh but I'm not sure, even by looking at the box. haha. It has one little metal panel at the bottom that doesn't seem to be punched.

I picked up a wonderful book on electricity for the home, but not have had a chance to read it. Here is a picture of the box.


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## r32 (Feb 19, 2010)

I just noticed it says Jacuzzi. Um...that didn't come with the house and I don't have one. Lol.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Michael

Looks like you can add and move in some new breaks in the panel but that's no big deal running the wire to the garage maybe but you may need to add a sub panel it looks like you are at the max for the service you now have you may need to go with a 200 amp.service.

I would suggest you call someone and have them give you a heads call, you can pull the permit in your name and do a home owners job.
If you do almost all the work you will save a ton of money, if not I would say you are looking a 300.oo to 500.oo bill..if not more, it's running the wire that will run the cost up.. 

Good luck, if it's worth doing it's worth doing it right from the get go.

======



r32 said:


> Ok, so I'm finally getting closer to those summer projects I want to start. The weather has turned to spring conditions, it's cool outside and now is the time to get started. (I'm total newbie to woodworking).
> 
> I'm looking at spending about $1.5k-2k on a new tablesaw, but of course now I'm realizing I need 220v receptacle in my house garage.
> 
> ...


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

hey Michael..

well, from the looks of it... you have enough panel, just not enough available circuits. You might be able to dance around enough to open up a 220 line and maybe a 110, but it dont look like much more than that. I don't think moving up to a 200amp service would be necessary. Looks like everything is pretty well staggered and really nothing unusual to be pulling an ungodly load on the lines. 
Just another opinion here would be to have a sub panel installed in your garage. I have no idea what the building codes would be for your area, and since your in CA. I can only guess as to just how ridiculous they might be. So the first thing I would do would be have an licensed electrician come in and give you an idea as to what you "have" to do to meet code requirements. At 25-50 bucks an hour, an hour worth of his/her time could be monies very well spent. 
I'd go with a subpanel for a number of reasons. 
One wire run to the garage from the main panel to the sub. 
Easy access to the sub panel from the garage and shop area
Much shorter runs from the sub panel to the outlets
Sub panel with a disconnect will allow you to cut the power while your making your connections in the box. (thinking here, that you dont' have alot of wiring background??) much safer. 

First and foremost.. IF you are not comfortable with, have no experience with or just arn't sure, this isn't the place to learn without someone with experience there to help ya out...SAFETY FIRST!!!!!
If a breaker does trip, and it will, no having to run through the house back to the main


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## r32 (Feb 19, 2010)

Wow, thanks for the great feedback on this. I need a plan for sure on this. I know a lot of things about a lot of things, but to be honest, the idea of messing with electricity scares the (@#! out of me, as I don't have a clear understanding of how it all works. 

I like idea of doing a sub-box in the garage. I would have no problem running wires and all that, just actually hooking things up would be a 'no way' for me.

Ok, so I'll first create a floorplan of the garage that shows placement of the new outlets, as well as placement of the whopping 1 outlet the house came standard with. Then I'll need to figure out how much wire and all that to buy from Home Depot. I'm assuming they have this kind of stuff for purchase for this job, such as the subbox and any of those black switches that go inside?

TwoSkies, when you say 'moving up to a 200amp service, what does that mean? I call PG&E and tell them to give me more power, like I'm some mad scientist running experiments from the garage? 

So, for running a sub-box at the garage, are these things usually inside or outside of a house? I want to start looking at placement of the box and such, and how do I run wire to the main box? Can I house it under the roof line inside thin PVC? Hmm...much research. Thanks for the feedback so far. MUCH appreciated! I want to hurry up and get this done.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Bill

That's a new one for me,I didn't know you could run a line from the main box without it being on a breaker in the main or sub box next to the main, for total control of the power in the house.
One Main master control.
And your right a sub panel box (100 amp.type) in the garage would be the way to go..

=====


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

Michael...excellent call on your part!!!! if ya ain't sure.. don't mess with it...

quite honestly, its more scary than technical in alot of regards, however. just one little "OPS" can bite ya in the ass pretty hard...if not do ya in... good call!!!

it looks to me like you have a 100-125 amp panel. This is the amp load rating the panel is capable of handling. A 200 amp service is a panel rated to handle up to 200amps. 
You need to make sure you get the right size cable for to run from the main panel to the sub panel. This will be based on length of run and size of subpanel (amps) Local supplier should be able to tell ya that. if not the electrician. 10 or 8 ga. maybe? I can't say for certain. I'd make the run in conduit. using stranded wire. Conduit is nice, neat, clean and straight forward to install. If you have a few bends to make, which you probably will, save them for when the electrican comes in. I seriously doubt you can run it inside of thin pvc...

ASk around, inquire about experiences with electricians, and find a name.. if no luck there, try asking at the big box stores when your shopping, those guys usually know a few folks... yellow pages, free estimates .. etc....what ever it is ya do, make sure first...


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## tdublyou (Jan 8, 2010)

TwoSkies57 said:


> Michael...excellent call on your part!!!! if ya ain't sure.. don't mess with it...
> 
> quite honestly, its more scary than technical in alot of regards, however. just one little "OPS" can bite ya in the ass pretty hard...if not do ya in... good call!!!
> 
> ...


Michael,
As a contractor and licensed home inspector I can tell you that all of the above advice is sound. Your on the right track with the creating the floor plan first and then consulting a licensed electrician. It will help them greatly if you have specs for the larger tools so they know what kind of amperage capacity you will be needing. Building codes will require that a licensed electrician does any work with a new service. As others have said, if you're even a little unsure of what you are doing, hire a professional! A lot of things can happen if this is done improperly and none of them are good.

Tim


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## DerekO (Jan 20, 2010)

Any one want to go smack my brother around? He promised to up my service to 200amp the summer of 2004 and refuses to admit he said it now.

As for your project, one of the things I have always been told you can do is drill the holes for the wire runs and actually pull the wire. But this has always been working with an electrician who is either a friend or related to the guy's project.

I do know when the power entrance to my house had to be moved when we built a garage the electrician told us to do all of the digging to get down to the cable and that if we did it, we would be saving his hourly rate of having him dig down there. Made it so the guy was just in and out in no time, and that included getting the city over to shut the power off and turn it back on.


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

Michael,

I'm an electrical engineer, not an electrician, so while I've done some wiring I cannot speak to shop rates or productivity for those guys. They're certainly a lot faster than I. <g>

There's a number of variables in that, however, that I hope I can get you thinking about...

The first will be your tolerance for appearance. If you insist on the wiring being 100% hidden with all of it passing inside of the walls, you may well spend more (time) getting the wire run from point "A" to point "B", snaking it through the walls. Things such as whether or not you have easy crawl space or attic access may play in here.

The next will be the number of circuits you wish to use. If you're installing 6 120V circuits and a 240 circuit, you'll be better off running a sub-panel into your garage. With breakers and everything, it'll run ~$100. Overall, depending upon distance and complexity I'd *guess* the total will be in the $400 - $800 range depending upon distance and route, although with careful planning this will set you up for more outlets in the garage in the future, whether for another 240 tool, special 120V tools, or (like me) a couple of switched outlets (separate breakers) for plugging in your cars (with the switches inside). Living in Central CA I don't know if they're needed, although emissions are reduced if you "plug at 20F".


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## r32 (Feb 19, 2010)

Very good info. Thanks guys!

I am getting a clearer picture now as to what needs to be done. Ok, so I went and measured everything and layed it out in ACAD. Here's what is existing in my garage.

I'm trying to figure out where I want my sub-box. Oh the wall opposite the garage door, I'm going to be putting all cabinetry for storage. On the left wall, I was planning on putting all cabinetry as well, but only 3' high so I can have a really long worktop area. I'll probably hang some cabinetry above this super long table top as well. On the right side I was planning to store my equipment, such as table saw, drill, router table, and dust collector. The main panel is way off to the left, on the opposite side of the house and property.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Lokks good 

But I would suggest more 120 volt outlets,about every 4ft on the garage walls plus a switch by the other door for the light. and maybe more light outlets, say about 6 total.

=======


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## r32 (Feb 19, 2010)

Thanks bob. This is actually just all the existing stuff showing. I plan to load up as much as safely and economically possible on the lighting and electrical outlets for sure. I gotta have at least one 240V in the garage too for the new table saw I'm going to order.

I'm still trying to figure out placement of everything. 

Also, what is this thing in my garage? It's located directly above the single outlet (in the lower left on the plan) which the irrigation control is plugged into. So it goes electrical outlet. Then above that is the irrigation control. Then above that is this metal box thing with a wire going into the wall.


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

bobj3 said:


> Lokks good
> 
> But I would suggest more 120 volt outlets,about every 4ft on the garage walls plus a switch by the other door for the light. and maybe more light outlets, say about 6 total.
> 
> =======


Bob's right on... One more thing to consider while your at it (though you could do it later) would be to wire an outlet as the only load to a breaker. This would be for use with a refrigerator or freezer in the garage at some future date. I would pay the extra dollar or so to make it a single-outlet connection rather than the normal dual-outlet (duplex) setup. I strongly recommend placing it on its own breaker as I've had friends lose whole freezers (and fridges) of food to a breaker tripped by some other tool plugged in the freezer circuit.

I had some friends lose a 20 cu. ft. chest-type freezer full of salmon that way. To make matters worse, it was in the basement and they didn't notice it until they got back from a 3-wk trip to Hawaii. It was a hold your breath, run down the stairs, pick up a container of stinking dripping goo and run back outside with it before you have to breathe. Pew!


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## jmg1017 (Apr 9, 2009)

Every 4ft for an outlet is a bit much. The code here in NY is every 12ft, which means you will never be more than 6ft (wall distance) from an outlet, which not coincidentally, is why lamps, appliances etc, which are UL rated come with cords no longer than 6ft.


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## r32 (Feb 19, 2010)

hmm a Refridge. I won't ever have room for one of those, with my plans to turn it into a woodshop garage and I need as much room as possible for tools.

But if the house ever goes up for sale, perhaps the next person would like that option. You're right. The book I have says 12' on center for outlet receptacles which sounds totally fine to me. Although, that would mean I'd only have 2 receptacles on each wall at the most. The total length of the left wall is barely 19-7". So I'll have to fit a 240v outlet somewhere in there.

Let me as you guys, do it make sense to have a 240v on both the left and right wall? Or should one wall suffice? I don't want to over-do things, but at the same time I want to do them right. You guys have really helped open my eyes to things on this electrical stuff. Thanks again!


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## Ghidrah (Oct 21, 2008)

I know I sound like a wet blanket so take it for what it's worth. In our area elects, and plumbs run between $90 to $120 an hour and get away with it. I wish I could charge $70% of that.

I don't know about Cal, but in MA there are many strict rules in laying line, how connections can be made, how much line must remain in a box and how boxes and junctions must be fixed to studs, joists and rafters.

You may be able to pick up a suggestion sheet at your local building dept that shows what the dept wants to see during an inspection. Or you might try one of the how to books offered at the Library or book store. 

In our area pretty much all the electricians I've known over the years and or worked around won't touch a job that was started and not finished by another electrician, and may not consider touching one begun by a layman.

They may not wish to risk their license on something they can't personally verify and or just not be willing to give up on whatever profit they would loose.

As for finding an electrician or plumber in our area (even new builder/contractors) that'll take on new customers, most times you have to get on all the lists and then wait for someone to die.


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## r32 (Feb 19, 2010)

Hah Ghidrah, I have not heard the term 'wet blanket' before. Must be a back-east saying?

I live in CA, where we consider ourselves the code-capital of the world. We have more damn laws/codes than most other states combined I think. I will definitely be picking up a local code guide for stuff, from the local city building department. Just from reading the book I bought (Taunton's For Pros by Pros "Wiring a House), I can see there is pretty much a code for everything, which doesn't surprise me at all. It is an excellent book that seems to cover everything. They even have an area dedicated to sub-panel setups and whatnot. 

Still don't know what that box is for in the garage. Anyone?

For finding an electrician, I checked the phone book. There are 5 listed for my small town of about 40k population. Right now our economy is hurting badly in CA. Many builders and construction people are out of work and I know tile and roofing guys have had to drop some pretty low bids to get any kind of work. Don't know if this holds true for the electrician trade too, but excellent point about them not touch a previous started job. I'm going to make some phone calls tonight and see if I can get someone out here soon to take a look.


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

Hey Michael.

your mystery box looks like step down transformer for a doorbell.....


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi 

It looks like a power supply for the door bell ..
A quick way to check it unscrew a wire and hit the door bell.

=====





r32 said:


> Thanks bob. This is actually just all the existing stuff showing. I plan to load up as much as safely and economically possible on the lighting and electrical outlets for sure. I gotta have at least one 240V in the garage too for the new table saw I'm going to order.
> 
> I'm still trying to figure out placement of everything.
> 
> Also, what is this thing in my garage? It's located directly above the single outlet (in the lower left on the plan) which the irrigation control is plugged into. So it goes electrical outlet. Then above that is the irrigation control. Then above that is this metal box thing with a wire going into the wall.


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

jmg1017 said:


> Every 4ft for an outlet is a bit much. The code here in NY is every 12ft, which means you will never be more than 6ft (wall distance) from an outlet, which not coincidentally, is why lamps, appliances etc, which are UL rated come with cords no longer than 6ft.


Joe,

While I'm very familiar with the NEC, for practical matters I stand behind Bob's 4' recommendation. With those nice long 4' counters, what's the chance of running two tools concurrently, at essentially the same spot. With two outlets within 4" two tools at one spot can concurrently be operating off different breakers without the use of an extension cord. For example, my 15A router and my 11A shop vac, or a lathe and dust collector... or...

If you're a one-man shop you don't necessarily need every duplex receptacle wired to its own breaker but if you have a 16' workbench and install 4 (or 5) receptacles, each 4' apart, and alternate breakers (i.e. outlets 1 & 3 on breaker "A" and 2 & 4 on "B".


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## tdublyou (Jan 8, 2010)

r32 said:


> Thanks bob. This is actually just all the existing stuff showing. I plan to load up as much as safely and economically possible on the lighting and electrical outlets for sure. I gotta have at least one 240V in the garage too for the new table saw I'm going to order.
> 
> I'm still trying to figure out placement of everything.
> 
> Also, what is this thing in my garage? It's located directly above the single outlet (in the lower left on the plan) which the irrigation control is plugged into. So it goes electrical outlet. Then above that is the irrigation control. Then above that is this metal box thing with a wire going into the wall.


Michael,
It is a low voltage transformer. These are generally used for door bells but it could have something to do with your irrigation system. If it's not in your way just leave it be.


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## r32 (Feb 19, 2010)

Thanks tdublyou. 

Now I'm thinking it must be part of the irrigation, as sits high up on the wall (about 7') and directly above the irrigation controller, which is plugged into a single socket directly below the controller. So they are all in a line together. And quite sloppily wired I might add. 

So if I design some outlets in this area, I guess I will have to be careful with the other wires in the wall already.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Michael

You don't want to start poking around in the walls just let things be, just run some steel conduit along the walls for the new outlets and your 220 outlet(s) ,yes two of them..on both sides of the same inside wall.. 

======





r32 said:


> Thanks tdublyou.
> 
> Now I'm thinking it must be part of the irrigation, as sits high up on the wall (about 7') and directly above the irrigation controller, which is plugged into a single socket directly below the controller. So they are all in a line together. And quite sloppily wired I might add.
> 
> So if I design some outlets in this area, I guess I will have to be careful with the other wires in the wall already.


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

Heya Michael,

BJ's right. While you're wiring in this new panel everything is de-energized and if you're doing the wire running yourself it'll only cost ya materials, and they're cheap. Upgrades will never be easier than now..


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## Cochese (Jan 12, 2010)

Great thread. I'd love to see what it ends up costing you.

I'm with the others - more outlets are better than not enough.


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## ukmike (Mar 23, 2010)

I know that I'm from the UK but as an ex electrician PLEASE PLEASE get someone in who knows what they are doing if you don't. Electricity does not like POW's, it hurts. You only have 1 life. But if your confident that you can do it yourself, good luck.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

What one man can do another can do also.. 

=========


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## Cochese (Jan 12, 2010)

I think I'm going to find someone who will hook it up to the mains after I run everything and they look it over. Best of both worlds.


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

ukmike said:


> I know that I'm from the UK but as an ex electrician PLEASE PLEASE get someone in who knows what they are doing if you don't. Electricity does not like POW's, it hurts. You only have 1 life. But if your confident that you can do it yourself, good luck.


Your point is well made,Mike.. Which is why any homeowner work should be done *before* the electrician arrives. Any electrician worth his salts will check what they are about to connect before they make it "live".


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Once you pull a home owner permit the inspector will check ever thing you do, step by step he will not let you make any errors, once your are done he will let you warm it up with final OK , you can ask a buddy how he does it but the inspector has the last word. .

All you need to get is the code book bible, you can find many,many books but the bible is the key.. and the last word for your location.

=======


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## 3efingers (Dec 21, 2006)

r32, today I got a bid on getting permanent electrial to my shop of $600.00. he will have to come out of the breaker box, after changing a couple of breakers to suit the task and run about 55 foot of connduit and wire underground to the shop and install a breaker box and breakers in the shop, all of it 220, the only thing I have to provide is dig the ditch (I got a man for that) and I will do the finish work myself in the shop. I'm in north Texas.

Hope it helps.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Sounds great Tom

But do think down the road a little bit 1st.it's table saw then it's vac.system and maybe drill press or a band saw and they all need power to run 

======



3efingers said:


> r32, today I got a bid on getting permanent electrial to my shop of $600.00. he will have to come out of the breaker box, after changing a couple of breakers to suit the task and run about 55 foot of connduit and wire underground to the shop and install a breaker box and breakers in the shop, all of it 220, the only thing I have to provide is dig the ditch (I got a man for that) and I will do the finish work myself in the shop. I'm in north Texas.
> 
> Hope it helps.


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

*I have to provide is dig the ditch (I got a man for that)*

I like how you think, Tom!


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## 3efingers (Dec 21, 2006)

Thanks bobj3, the 220 will split at the breakers in the shop, all my tools are 110 but if I ever upgrade to a tool of 220 all I have to do is add 1 and 1, but doubt if I ever upgrade to a 220 table saw, just a bit too rich for my pockets.


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

bobj3 said:


> Sounds great Tom
> 
> But do think down the road a little bit 1st.it's table saw then it's vac.system and maybe drill press or a band saw and they all need power to run
> 
> ======



Yea... and as the Big Boys here told me when I got into this hobby, "Woodworking isn't just expensive, it's *mighty* expensive!". BJ, did I miss an f-bomb in that quote?


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Jim

hahahahahaha Very true ,,, most don't see at 1st.it's like buying a router then you need some bits then it's a router table and it just goes on and on..

I think I have most of the router bits I need then I see one more that I want and I got some new ones just last week, no end to it I think..

==========



BigJimAK said:


> Yea... and as the Big Boys here told me when I got into this hobby, "Woodworking isn't just expensive, it's *mighty* expensive!". BJ, did I miss an f-bomb in that quote?


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Tom 

??????
" but of course now I'm realizing I need 220v receptacle in my house garage"

======



3efingers said:


> Thanks bobj3, the 220 will split at the breakers in the shop, all my tools are 110 but if I ever upgrade to a tool of 220 all I have to do is add 1 and 1, but doubt if I ever upgrade to a 220 table saw, just a bit too rich for my pockets.


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## r32 (Feb 19, 2010)

Haha this thread has blown up off a simple (yet complex?) question. 

I'm going to have a guy try to come out next week and give me an estimate. It will be interesting how close he comes to the $600 quote you got in TX. I've been reading through this Wiring book from Taunton and it has some amazing info. Also has an section for sub panels with lots of excellent diagrams and explanations on everything, including doing things 'above code' as the author stresses. I'm getting more excited on getting the workshop going and have a list of things to do this weekend.

1. Map out entire garage, including where existing wires are routed in walls.
2. Figure out best locations for new outlets.
3. Figure out best route for wiring to the main box.
4. Figure out best location in garage for sub panel.
5. Go to Home Depot to price everything out.
6. Call up electrician to get estimate.


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

r32 said:


> Haha this thread has blown up off a simple (yet complex?) question.
> 
> I'm going to have a guy try to come out next week and give me an estimate. It will be interesting how close he comes to the $600 quote you got in TX. I've been reading through this Wiring book from Taunton and it has some amazing info. Also has an section for sub panels with lots of excellent diagrams and explanations on everything, including doing things 'above code' as the author stresses. I'm getting more excited on getting the workshop going and have a list of things to do this weekend.
> 
> ...


When it comes to electrical wiring there's an old saying:

"If someone says 'But it meets code!', it means that doing any less would be illegal."


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## Cochese (Jan 12, 2010)

3efingers said:


> r32, today I got a bid on getting permanent electrial to my shop of $600.00. he will have to come out of the breaker box, after changing a couple of breakers to suit the task and run about 55 foot of connduit and wire underground to the shop and install a breaker box and breakers in the shop, all of it 220, the only thing I have to provide is dig the ditch (I got a man for that) and I will do the finish work myself in the shop. I'm in north Texas.
> 
> Hope it helps.


Where is your breaker box, if you don't mind me asking.

I'm hoping to get this done one day, as I think it will give me much more equity than it costs to do, but my panel is in the dead center of our house, and I don't know of a way to run the conduit under the perimeter of the house.


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## 3efingers (Dec 21, 2006)

My breaker box is in the garage on the outside wall, he will come thru the wall with conduit run it down to about 1 foot above the ground and from there go to the corner of the house and then underground to the shop, come out of the ground about a foot and enter the shop.


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## DerekO (Jan 20, 2010)

BigJimAK said:


> *I have to provide is dig the ditch (I got a man for that)*
> 
> I like how you think, Tom!


When I was a kid, it would have been Dad saying "I got a boy for that"  as he handed me a shovel.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi 


hahahahahahah, me too but he would take it back and say here, I will show you .one more time worked almost every time for me ,,hahahahaha.. and I would say, you are great Dad how did you learn that hahahahahah..   it's funny that I did turned into my dad....over time.  but I know most of the tricks to get out of work....

===



DerekO said:


> When I was a kid, it would have been Dad saying "I got a boy for that"  as he handed me a shovel.


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

Pap used to say "anybody can dig a ditch, not everyone can swing a shovel"!!!


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## 3efingers (Dec 21, 2006)

My children live far away (makes me wonder) I know better than to even ask my step-daughter and I'm sure not going to dig in this clay and limestone ground, so I gotta pay my man.

Any body want to throw some cash this way to help out?


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## procrastinator1 (Jan 28, 2010)

I had a similar problem with my set up. I could not use my tools without tripping a circuit. I live in St. Paul, MN and I was quoted 250.00 for running a sub-panel, and that did not include running any lines. Being the tight wad that I am, I thought that was outrageous. *I will echo what has been said before if you are unsure or do not stick your hand into the mix. Messing with 110 will bite but messing with 220 will kill, thus no room for error. *
If you feel like it is something you want to tackle, I highly recommend that you get the book Advanced Home Wiring Updated 2nd Edition by Black and Decker. You should read the needed chapters a couple of times and then go to your favorite home improvement store and find someone who is competent and bounce off your ideas to make sure it makes sense. Once you feel that you have it all straight, plan out your project and make sure you have a flashlight with fully charged batteries on hand.


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## Hamlin (Dec 25, 2005)

Only once was anything mentioned about "check your local code". This IS a must. By law, you are to have 3-4 open slots in your panel for future expansion as per what you're trying to do. In your case, you WILL have to upgrade to a larger panel box. To be honest, not sure why this is such a worry about what it will cost.... as once was said before in the past, can you truly, really put a price of safety? Doing electrical is easy stuff, doing it right and correctly takes patience an knowledge of YOUR local codes and getting permits to such things. There is more to it than just running wires from point A to point B.


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## DerekO (Jan 20, 2010)

Ruben, do you need to add the hard wired smoke detectors to your bedrooms as my friend had to do in Bloomington, MN?

Ken,
Why do you need to leave the spots open for future expansion, when if you do that future expansion it fills the box and you have to get a new one?

Ours passed the inspection when we moved it and the box was full. Was 1994 so don't know if the rule has changed or not. We even had in some of the double breakers that take up a single breaker slot.

My brother has promised to upgrade me to 200amp since 2004. Still waiting on him to do it. I need it or a sub box so I can finish wiring the basement and do the garage. Tired of having one outlet in the garage and extension cords running through the rafters to where we need to plug something in. Luckily it is usually only for charging the scooter, garage door opener and some lighting. Might be the sawzall or the old table saw or the circular saw sometimes, but at those times we aren't charging the scooter and it is daylight so the only use is the tool.

What is going to be the bummer about it all is as far as I know state (and maybe US and further) code has changed so that if I do something like that to the box I need to had some hardwired smoke detectors inside of the bedrooms (might just be outside and the inside the bedroom a city rule where a friend lives) and I believe they must be arc fault breakers. My buddy has a weird brand box and it took us a lot of searching to find enough arc fault breakers for his adding on 4 season porch which caused the need for the smoke detectors. Would be hell to do it here as we have vaulted ceilings, including in the one bedroom. Still trying to get some one to go up into the attic opening and check things out for me as we also need to replace the bathroom exhaust fan.

I think the neighbor down the street retires sometime soon and he is an electrician for the FAA and has been willing to help out for free before. Might ask him to help me do it if I pull a permit.


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## DerekO (Jan 20, 2010)

Bob and others...regarding the shovel/digging. Dad wouldn't fall for that with us. We were expected to know how to do it. Or to figure it out if we didn't. Neither me nor my brother ever had to be taught to drive a car as we had been driving go-carts, tractors, farm trucks, the family car or anything else we could hit the pedals on since we could see over the wheel.

The first time Dad got a tractor to dig up the septic system out of the 4 times it had to be done, was the fall I was away at college. And he didn't even tell me so I could drive home and run the backhoe  ...was only 45 minutes away. Didn't buy his own log splitter until after I got married as I always did it before and I was faster by hand then him and my brother together on the log splitter.

When they built the new house and moved the chain link fence from the old one (highway now is where the old one was) he did call me back to lift the fence posts covered in concrete as most of the guys helping couldn't do it. This was after the hip replacement and one of the type of things I did that my Wife and I got yelled at by several doctors and physical therapists and rehab specialists the summer of pain clinics. That summer was the last time I got to do anything fun outside of take risks with my scooters or golf cart  And the new rules slowed me down so much it was another 100lbs added before I stopped increasing     I suppose if I didn't get those rules I wouldn't have been able to walk at all or help lift the scooter near as many years as I was able to do it as the knees would have worn out sooner and the other hip was already bone to bone even then.


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## dhaywood (Mar 15, 2008)

*Electrician costs*

r32, I don't know about Calf. rules, but where I live you can do your own electrical up to the point of tying it into the panel box. If you are comfortable doing this and it is allowed, it could save you a lot of money. There many books out there to help you through any areas you are not familiar with. If you are the least unsure though it would be better to have a professional do it.


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## Hamlin (Dec 25, 2005)

DerekO said:


> Ruben, do you need to add the hard wired smoke detectors to your bedrooms as my friend had to do in Bloomington, MN?
> 
> Ken,
> Why do you need to leave the spots open for future expansion, when if you do that future expansion it fills the box and you have to get a new one?
> ...



All I'm going to say is, check your local codes. Everything is covered there. It changes from region to region an state to state.


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

Hamlin said:


> All I'm going to say is, check your local codes. Everything is covered there. It changes from region to region an state to state.


+1

Man, does it ever!!!!!


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## DerekO (Jan 20, 2010)

I have heard that leave empty spots for expansion from many different parts of North America, but I have never understood why they are left for expansion if once you do the expansion and use those spots, you would need to upgrade to a larger box or add a sub-panel. It just seems weird to me is all. 

As for code being different all over the place, I know that. 

Same for inspectors. 

My father-in-law has dealt with inspectors all around the midwest when he was in management of a construction company. Yet when he met the inspector here while building my garage the two of them clashed instantly and we had problems with every single inspection even though we passed them all the first time except the footings and that was because he wanted some tiny little change that actually made no difference.

I have since learned that most of the building inspectors around here either just don't like the looks or me or possibly they are all just cranky. The one even calls up people who call the One-call for checking for utilities if they haven't pulled a permit yet. I was told this by the guy who came out to mark the city lines and later on by my Wife who received the call. We waited for the marking as it made a difference where we were putting the fence. If it showed the electric running right down our property line we were going to move the fence in a foot. This was a worry as it does run close to the line in several spots, but we had never just gotten a survey right before and thus knew exactly where the line supposedly was. I say supposedly as when the neighbor got a survey of the same line before building his workshop the line was marked about 2 feet closer to his house than this last survey. So at least we aren't across the line.

The inspector made a huge fuss about it all before we built the fence, but on the inspection day it was raining and he didn't even get out of his car to see if we stuck to the same line (you can't see the back yard from the front, big drop off with retaining wall and trees in the way) or stayed out of the easements or any checking at all other than to say, "yup, looks like a fence".

The electrical inspectors have all been nice and pleasant and even helpful.


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

+1 on Ken's post. Do *not* assume your jurisdiction will require hard-wiring smoke detectors and installing arc-flash circuit breakers in your garage sub-panel installation. The National Electric Code does not contain a reference in the sub-panel addition to a residence to the arc-flash or NFPA docs on hard-wired smoke detectors. This would have to be a local addition, kind of like our recently passed national health care legislation*, except on a local level.

Any jurisdiction with such requirements is far from the norm and is a likely candidate for another "Osario/Sawstop/ and the tablesaw lawsuit".

* Or, as referred to by Sen. Max Baucus D-Mont, "This legislation will have the effect of addressing that mal-distribution of income in America."

Reference:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...lth-care-law-address-mal-distribution-income/


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## alderman (Apr 1, 2010)

So Michael, did you complete your project or are you still working on it? I see that the last post was made in March, 2010.


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## 3efingers (Dec 21, 2006)

I've got about half of my done, my man only charged me 80 bucks to dig the ditch and it was worth every red cent!! Electrician did what he said he would do and charged me 600 bucks as quoted.

I have the new shop roughed in and I'm adding a couple of plugs in the old shop, now comes the hard part, my bride says I have to lay the sod in both front and back yards, I got the back yard done today and if I wake up in the morning and can roll out of bed I'll do the front and after I install the new front door next week I can finish my shop.

What kind of odds are ya'll giving that she finds something else for me first?


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## tdublyou (Jan 8, 2010)

3efingers said:


> I've got about half of my done, my man only charged me 80 bucks to dig the ditch and it was worth every red cent!! Electrician did what he said he would do and charged me 600 bucks as quoted.
> 
> I have the new shop roughed in and I'm adding a couple of plugs in the old shop, now comes the hard part, my bride says I have to lay the sod in both front and back yards, I got the back yard done today and if I wake up in the morning and can roll out of bed I'll do the front and after I install the new front door next week I can finish my shop.
> 
> What kind of odds are ya'll giving that she finds something else for me first?


Tom,
With any kind of luck, her next project will require shopwork:haha:
One can always hope anyway.


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## curiousgeorge (Nov 6, 2006)

3efingers said:


> I've got about half of my done, my man only charged me 80 bucks to dig the ditch and it was worth every red cent!! Electrician did what he said he would do and charged me 600 bucks as quoted.
> 
> I have the new shop roughed in and I'm adding a couple of plugs in the old shop, now comes the hard part, my bride says I have to lay the sod in both front and back yards, I got the back yard done today and if I wake up in the morning and can roll out of bed I'll do the front and after I install the new front door next week I can finish my shop.
> 
> What kind of odds are ya'll giving that she finds something else for me first?


No odds, ole' buddy... that is an almost certainty. Just because you are retired doesn't mean the honey-do's stop. Retired... "I was tired yesterday and I'm re-tired today". Oh! By the way. We need (require) pictures of the new shop.


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## jschaben (Jun 21, 2009)

curiousgeorge said:


> No odds, ole' buddy... that is an almost certainty. Just because you are retired doesn't mean the honey-do's stop. Retired... "I was tired yesterday and I'm re-tired today". Oh! By the way. We need (require) pictures of the new shop.


He,hehehehe.... One thing I've noticed about retirement is that I have no idea how I found the time for a full time job in the first place.
I guess having to much to do is better than having nothing to do. When I have nothing to do, it is sooooo difficult to know when I'm done.:fie:


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## 3efingers (Dec 21, 2006)

George if my wife slacks up I'll gladly take pictures of the shop!! You want inside and outside??

Lets get together Wed. for lunch, my side of town and my treat.


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## curiousgeorge (Nov 6, 2006)

Sounds good to me, Tom. Same time same place. And yes inside and out.


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## AxlMyk (Jun 13, 2006)

jschaben said:


> He,hehehehe.... One thing I've noticed about retirement is that I have no idea how I found the time for a full time job in the first place.


Strange, isn't it? I have the same thought.


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## 3efingers (Dec 21, 2006)

IT'S ALIVE !!!! I got lights and working wall plugs in the shop addition, got it insulated and half the peg board up, if somebody will tell me how to add a photo, I'll include some tomorrow.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

H Tom

Here's How-To add a photo

Beginners Guide to RouterForums.com

=======



3efingers said:


> IT'S ALIVE !!!! I got lights and working wall plugs in the shop addition, got it insulated and half the peg board up, if somebody will tell me how to add a photo, I'll include some tomorrow.


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## 3efingers (Dec 21, 2006)

Thanks Bob, I'll give it a shot.


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## 3efingers (Dec 21, 2006)

*shop photos*

Lets give this a shot. The unpainted shop is the new one, the blue one is the existing one, tieing them together is on the "LIST" along with wood floors in the house, new fence, several visits to the bone cracker.

George she added 2 more things to the list today !!

I have discovered that a honey do list is international.........


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

I really like your windows, Tom... I wish mine had some!

On the honey-do's I'm learning to find ways to accomplish them that require a new tool I really want... it makes 'em less painful!


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## curiousgeorge (Nov 6, 2006)

Lookin' good, Tom. I see you got the picture thing figured out. I can't wait to see it in person. Maybe you should go back to work so you can get some rest from the honey-do's. :dance3:


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## Dr.Zook (Sep 10, 2004)

Tom, the "Honey-Do" list is not only International, but "Never Ending."


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## Cochese (Jan 12, 2010)

Very nice! I might have to pick your brain later on about those windows.


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## 3efingers (Dec 21, 2006)

George go wash your mouth out with soap, saying that nasty word "WORK!"

Doc that is for sure, its my wife's way of keeping me out of trouble.....

Chris the windows are just sliding windows from Home Depot.


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## 80 olympics (Dec 15, 2009)

Michael,

Your are definitely at maximum capacity and need a service upgrade to 200 amps then run a 60 or 100 amp sub panel to your shop. Don't know about California, but here in NY your looking at $2,500 to $3,000. One other option is to convert your clothes dryer to gas if possible to free up space for the sub panel.


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## r32 (Feb 19, 2010)

Thanks for all the feedback guys! Here is an update.

Well guys, I've been busy with other things and I think an entire month has passed. Sheesh. But I totally convinced my best friends dad to come over and take a look. He is a certified electrician of 20+ years and is the top electrician in charge for the our local city. 

He had a good chuckle when he saw the current box is full already, because it's such a new house. He said as long as I wouldn't be running more than 2 big machines at once I would be fine with a 60amp feed to the subpanel in the garage. I already checked the specs of the machines I am looking to buy and the largest is definitely the tablesaw, with everything else falling below that.

For the main box, he said I have two options. If they offered a 2-pole quad breaker with 15's and a 60, then I could replace the two bottom 15's on the existing box setup and tie those into the new quad breaker. Then tie the 60amp feed to the that part of the quad. Or....upgrade to a bigger panel where I'd definitely have more room.

Now I'm trying to lure him with a bar-b-que and big juicy New York steak to come over and swap out my existing panel. Haha. He's a long time friend of the family and his son and I are best friends. So hopefully I can persuade him.

He said it would be much easier just to pop in a 15/60amp into the existing box, then feed that to the subpanel, without replacing the existing box. So I spent some time last evening and whipped up some plans. See attached. 

He told me who to see down at the city to pull a permit and to show them my plans first, then go for it. And he would do the hooking up of the subpanel if I ran all the wires and such. Still weighing the option of replacing the whole box though, since I see that Murray doesn't make a 15/60 quad. They make a 15/50 though.

See attached for plans. I'm not done with drawing them though. Still gotta add the wiring diagram for the 240V outlets and also floorplan of updated (new) electrical.

Having read completely and carefully through 2 electrical books has opened my eyes to the wonderful world of electrical and I'm feeling way more confident and have a much better understanding now.

Feel free to use any of the graphics on the plans I whipped up to create your own plans. I created the plans in AutoCAD and Adobe Illustrator.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Michael

I know this as been said b/4 , but don't cut corners on this type of job, look down the road a little bit, this is one of the times you want to over build.

You can take my word to the bank, you will always want more power in the shop, if you have a friend of the family doing the work now is the time..


========



r32 said:


> Thanks for all the feedback guys! Here is an update.
> 
> Well guys, I've been busy with other things and I think an entire month has passed. Sheesh. But I totally convinced my best friends dad to come over and take a look. He is a certified electrician of 20+ years and is the top electrician in charge for the our local city.
> 
> ...


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

Michael,

I too work in a 2-car garage and have dropped in a sub-panel and have a suggestion for you.

Whether you go 60 or 100 amp to your shop, do not scrimp on the number of slots in your sub-panel and design around the full-width breakers; save the half-widths for if/when it fills up. I went for 14 slots and when I do it again (next house, in a few years) I'll go larger. When I started out, 14 slots seemed inconceivable to ever fill. I wired out 4 breakers for outlets plus a pair for my 240V TS, that's 6.

I'm saving for a compressor, 240V, two more slots.

If I was staying in this house, I'd want to add extra lights. You want dedicated circuits for lights so a tool popping a fuse doesn't leave you in the dark with a tool spinning down. It's also recommended that you split your lights across 2 breakers, for the same reason. Two more slots.

I've wired my RT cabinet to take two circuits to it (separate for the router and vacuum) in one extension cord. Two more slots.

Some day I'll upgrade to a 240V DC, two more slots.

Are you going to some day add a refrigerator and/or freezer to your garage? If so you *definitely* want each of them on its own breaker. Otherwise a tool pops a breaker and if it doesn't get reset, your food spoils.

Poof, there's 14 slots used. Then and only then you can retrofit two half-widths for a single full-width or a quad for a double. Compare prices on the sub-panels. We're talking maybe $20 extra here.


Are you going to some day add a refrigerator and/or freezer to your garage? If so you *definitely* want each of them on its own breaker. Otherwise a tool pops a breaker and if it doesn't get reset, your food spoils. Now you've filled the 14-breaker unit and are swapping two for half-widths. As BJ says, the extra cost now is a pittance compared to having to upgrade later.

For me it wasn't that I was going to use a bazillion amps, just a lot of things to plug in and it's sure convenient not having to plug/unplug all the time. Also, with the 240's there's breaker size, etc.


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## r32 (Feb 19, 2010)

Yo BigJim! That name just sounds like it needs a big YO in front of it. Hahah 

I am definitely not cutting corners, but I definitely won't be in the house long-term either. I am planning on a 125amp subpanel from Murray with a lot of slots. I didn't draw that detail correctly in the PDF, as I'm not finished with the drawings yet. Going to use those to get the permit from the city. I can't recall exactly but I priced a Murray 125sub (lug) panel at my local Lowes and they are surprisingly cheap. No fridge in the garage for me. I don't have the room. I barely have the room for the tools and storage that I want. In a dreamworld I would have a workshop separate and it's nice to dream but...well I'm stuck with my so-called 2-car garage, which is more like a wide 1-car. haha.

The other thing is....I won't be here but maybe a couple more years and then I am thinking of moving. Waiting for the piss-poor economy to pick back up before making a leap to a new town though.


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