# Table saw shopping



## reikimaster (Sep 29, 2005)

Been watching craigslist.... nada.... 

Looking at going to Home Depot tomorow and picking up the Ridgid R4512 for $499.

Then tonight I come across a brand new (in box) Powermatic 64s... basically it's the 64A but with stamped wings instead of cast. It has a 30 inch MicroGlide fence (which I've never heard of). This is on eBay, but it's a local pickup from a place I recognize about a half hour from my house. I can get this for sure for $549

Is the powermatic at this level a better deal than the Ridgid? Both have the stamped wings. Doesn't look like I can afford to get into all cast iron top, but it is what it is. I wonder if I can later replace the stamped wings on the 64s with wings from a 64A 

And the MicroGlide fence.... I have no idea what to expect from that.

Open to ideas here, guys as I'm going to have to move on this soon.

thanks


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## Marco (Feb 21, 2009)

I don't have any personal info about the saw but do have a link if it helps any about the 64s model

I have read threads where posters love their Rigid table saws.

Good luck and enjoy your new table saw to be named later


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## reikimaster (Sep 29, 2005)

I'm actually not finding many people who love that particular Powermatic model. Like the big powermatic machines are awesome, but this one is ..... not so awesome. Maybe that Ridgid is where I should be heading. I can't find a Jet, or a Grizzly, or a Delta near that price point with the features of that Ridgid. I looked at a PCB270TS at Lowes and it looked kinda chincy compared to the Ridgid.

Tomorrow could be decision day. I have to get this bought, brought home, and get it out of my van and back to the shop before the snow falls tomorrow afternoon .... or I have to wait again. I'm not a good waiter.


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## Jack Wilson (Mar 14, 2010)

Patience is the key word for craigslist, good things come to those who wait! On the other hand if you want it now, I get that too! Not sure at all about your power-matic, I own a Ridgid, as well as a Jet 3hp and a Craftsman 1.5hp, (comprable to the Ridgid in many ways), and I like my Ridgid, though the Jet is most favored. I picked it up for trade, no money out of pocket, and a weeks worth of evenung hours. If you can wait, HD will still have the Ridgid in a month, but that buys you a month to watch craigslist...Try SearchTempest - The EASY way to search Craigslist I use this OFTEN, when looking for a specific tool, input your zipcode, how far your willing to drive and what your looking for. It searches craigslist for you.


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## Marco (Feb 21, 2009)

10-4 about the PCB270TS at Lowes, seems flimsy for $600..... but the reviewers who own the saw really like it a lot! Wish I were in your dilema!!!!


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Don't forget to check out 'Moving Sales' and 'Estate Sales', not to mention auction houses. From a recent and ongoing experience, that where a lot of tools show up.
They won't be new, but they _will_ be inexpensive. (And as I think I mentioned earlier, that's where the bankruptcy stuff ends up, although if it's a bigger company, the sale may actually be held on the business's own premises.)


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Charlie, since a table saw will last you many years you should concentrate more on the features than the price. I really like the granite table on the Steel City band saw I bought last year; not having to deal with rust is a real bonus. They have a nice saw with granite table and extensions for $649, you can view it here by selecting the 2012 sales flier: http://steelcitytoolworks.com/
A word about the cast iron web extensions: you only need to pinch your fingers once to wish you didn't have them! I have been happy with my Craftsman table with stamped steel extensions other than the fence.(you get what you pay for) Regardless of which saw you go with some sleds will make many tasks much easier. Having tried many different blades I highly recommend the red Freud industrial blades with a thin kerf; especially the 50 tooth combo blade. It performs better than the PC Razor, DeWalt or Craftsman blades for a reasonable price.


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## reikimaster (Sep 29, 2005)

*Bought the Ridgid!*

I just got back from picking up the R4512. I registered for a Lowes "mover" discount coupon online and when it showed up in my email this morning I printed it. Home Depot honored it (because it had my name on it) and I got 10% off. They do not accept the Harbor Freight coupons at all. So I got the saw for $449 plus tax. Still haven't quite figured out how I'm going to get it out of the van. Probably have to wait for my sone to get home from work.



Mike said:


> Charlie, since a table saw will last you many years you should concentrate more on the features than the price.


Not disagreeing, but in my situation I pretty much had a ceiling of $500 to work with. $500 plus tax was about all there was for me to use. So keeping it UNDER $500 was a big deal. Nothing used coming up and I had to keep moving on this project. So while I do not disagree with your reasoning, in my case, I was constrained by both money and time. After a LOT of looking around I think I did OK with this saw. I guess I'll know more once I actually get it back to the shop and out of the box.



Mike said:


> Regardless of which saw you go with some sleds will make many tasks much easier. Having tried many different blades I highly recommend the red Freud industrial blades with a thin kerf; especially the 50 tooth combo blade. It performs better than the PC Razor, DeWalt or Craftsman blades for a reasonable price.


Thanks, Mike. I'll take the advice on blades and I know that with the new capabilities, I'll be making some sleds for various tasks.

Now I'm on to wondering if I can open that box in my van and remove enough weight to be meaningful, or if I should just leave it alone. It's hard to stay away heheheh


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## papawd (Jan 5, 2011)

My son in law has The Ridgid uses it for his remodeling company fixed wheels on it that fold out of way . He is a Ridgid fan on alot of tools and I now own a few based on His recommendations, I think You have a good saw there and good luck


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## reikimaster (Sep 29, 2005)

*Got it back to the shop! *

I put together one scaffold section and put the wheels on it. The scaffold can take 1000 pounds but I was a little concerned about the 8 inch wheels rolling over the yard. Well the ground is frozen tight so we had absolutely no issue with sinking. It was just bumpy. Once we got to the back patio we rolled it to the shop doors and lifted it off the scaffold and set it on the floor. Tipped the box over on its side and walked the saw out onto a piece of plywood, then rolled it on its top and put a couple pieces of 2x8 under it. Whew.... I'm REAL glad my son was here to help me. If I go out there and get the stand assmbled and attached tonight, he can help me stand it upright tomorrow. 

I *might* be able to get it standing on my own, but with 2 people it's pretty easy and with one might be kinda dangerous  So I may have to be satisfied with an upside down saw for one evening.


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## reikimaster (Sep 29, 2005)

My son came home early. So it's standing. I'm excited like a kid on Christmas mornin' hehehe. Have to get the wings level and install the fence rails and fence and all the tune-up stuff, but at least now I can start on it when I get up. Boy that lift system is pretty amazing. Once it was standing I put it up on the casters and I can move that saw easily with one hand. I mean grab the front of the table and move it around in a half circle.

Also... once I clean the top off I know I'm supposed to wax it... or coat it. Not sure what's available locally. I know enough not to use car wax on it, but I don't have paste wax. I can go out and get something, but .... will covering it with a blanket to keep moisture from settling on it ok be for a few days? None of my other cast iron is rusting. Might be dumb luck, but the new saw top is so pretty I don't want to screw it up!


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Johnsons paste wax is available at all hardware stores and most grocery stores. Until you can get it plastic would be a better choice.


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## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

Johnson paste wax works well for me... most plastics will draw moisture and cause rust!!


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## reikimaster (Sep 29, 2005)

*Got it set up!*

Wow! What a nice saw this is. Now, granted, the only thing I have to compare it to is my old Ryobi BTS15. Got it all together. The fence was so tight out of the box that I couldn't even get it on the rails. Easy enough to adjust that... done. It's a little stiff in the ways right now, but not terribly so and I think once I wax the rails I can cure some of that. If not, I'll back it off just a touch.

I don't have a dial indicator to check the blade square to miter slot, but using the miter gauge and a steel rule, and checking the same tooth at the front and back, it LOOKS very good. Doing this with the stock blade. I'll go get a new one this week. Was going to take the Diablo off my Ryobi, but figured a new saw deserves a new blade. I'm not going to get under it and start messin' with trunions until I have a dial indicator and the new blade is on there. 

But right now, out-of-the-box with just normal setup and adjust (minus getting into the trunions), I have to say I'm impressed. Quiet, smooth, parts very clearly marked. Took my time, got a little help when needed and I have to declare this a success at this point. 

Oh.. and it really does pass the nickel test perfectly. I did it just running and I did it passing a piece of 3/4 plywood through the blade. The nickel never budged.


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Charlie, one easy test to be sure you won't get kick back is to attach a guide strip to the center of the bottom of a piece of wood slightly larger than the distance of the outer edges of your miter slots.(a test sled) Run it through using the left miter slot, power down and draw it back past the blade checking to see that it is perfectly even with the blade. Use an ultra fine point Sharpie to make a reference line on your table. Repeat on the right side of the blade. These marks will show you exactly where the cut will be made for future set ups. Next position your "test sled" between the blade and fence to insure it is perfectly parallel along it's length. This is the easiest way to verify alignment. Attach a piece of 1 x 2" on top of the trailing edge of your test sled and now you have a handy sled for cutting small pieces. Mark the blade dimensions on the sled and only use it with blades of the same thickness. Quick, easy and multipurpose.


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## reikimaster (Sep 29, 2005)

*Saw quirk?*

I think I found a bug!  (sorry.... too much time in the IT department at the university...)

I was out in the shop adjusting my new R4512 and giving the blade-to-miter slot alignment a serious looking at. I discovered something interesting. 

If I raise the blade up.... not talking about raising it all the way to top of travel, but just turn the blade height crank in the UP direction and then stop... the blade is out of alignment by about 1/32... maybe a touch more. That is, the REAR of the blade is farther from the left miter slot than the front of the blade. HOWEVER.... if I raise the blade and then crank it DOWN a little, the back of the blade moves to the left a smidge and comes into as near perfect alignment as I can detect. The movement is most evident when the blade is farthest out of the table. In other words, the higher I crank the blade, the more movement I see when I crank it down a touch. If I'm just going to cut 3/4 inch plywood for example, there is very little eidence of movement. If I was going to rip a 4x4, I'd see this movement easily. There is no evidence of movement once you get it where you want it as long as you got there by LOWERING the blade.

I found someone else who is seeing this exact same movement. I have no idea if there's a way to take up this "slack" in the height adjustment, but I may be placing a call to Rigid to find out. This doesn't diminish my excitement over this saw. I see it as a quirk. But it SHOULD remain in alignment in either direction of travel (former millwright. I like things tight.  )


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Charlie, this is trunnion misalignment. Every step in set up is critical for proper performance.


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## reikimaster (Sep 29, 2005)

Mike said:


> Charlie, this is trunnion misalignment. Every step in set up is critical for proper performance.


Mike,
It's not constant. It's variable. The problem is not so much getting it aligned. I can adjust the trunnions to do that. But with the trunnions tight (the trunnions are not moving), the alignment "shifts". It has to be something in the height adjustment mechanism as that's what it affecting the alignment. Not that it is out of alignment based on the height itself, but rather something is moving based on whether the blade was last moved up or down. There's slop in the mechanism somewhere. 

If I loosen the trunnions and align the blade square to the miter slot, tighten the trunnions, and then lower the blade a bit, the back of the blade shifts to the left. If I raise the blade, the back of it shifts to the right. 

I've found more than one person mentioning this, but haven't found a solution yet. Something has to be loose or plain manufactured/assembled incorrectly. We've had a snowfall and I can't roll this back out to the van from my shop any more. Returning it isn't a real good option for me so if I can fix it here, that's what I need to try and do.


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## waho6o9 (Apr 4, 2010)

https://www.ridgidforum.com/forum/f12/

Maybe someone in their forum can alleviate your situation. Shouldn't be too bad as others have probably fixed the same thing.


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## reikimaster (Sep 29, 2005)

waho6o9 said:


> https://www.ridgidforum.com/forum/f12/
> 
> Maybe someone in their forum can alleviate your situation. Shouldn't be too bad as others have probably fixed the same thing.



yup... joined that forum specifically for this saw. 

And nobody there seems to have posted any kind of fix for this. I spent a couple hours out there this morning, loosening trunnions, measuring, tightening trunnions (didn't solve the problem, but got it aligned even better). I was trying to isolate exactly where the movement is originating. No joy. But SOMETHING I did, made the blade shift LESS. If the last thing I did was LOWER the blade, even just the tiniest bit, the alignment is within .002 and I consider that acceptable. If I RAISE the blade and measure, the back of the blade has moved to the right by .008 (making it now .010 out of alignment).

If I simply remember to make my last blade height adjustment a DOWN adjustment, then the saw is as aligned as most any other I think. Perfection would be nice, and I *might* see if I can squeak another .002 out of the trunnion adjustment, but I run the risk of going past and having to back up and start over. It's not terrible working on it and the one trunnion bolt I thought was going to be impossible to reach, isn't really hard to reach at all.

So we're talking about 1/128 of an inch. I don't know many people working to that tight of a tolerance in wood. Pattern makers maybe, but that's all I can think of.  The flip side of that is that the closer I can bring the machine to perfection, the more it will take for the HUMAN to do something out of spec.


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## wbh1963 (Oct 11, 2011)

I'm just thinking out loud some here.

The 'center of gravity' of the arbor mechanism, and the fact that 'raising the blade' works against gravity, while lowering it works with gravity are considerations. It would be interesting to see how much this phenomenon persists with a full 'dado stack' on the arbor, as that would distort the center of gravity for the combined blade & arbor unit that is traveling up and down.

Belt tension, presuming it is a belt driven unit given the price, could be in the mix here as well. This has my curiosity perked in a 'mechanical physics' sort of way.


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## reikimaster (Sep 29, 2005)

I just bought a dial indicator. I have to get a stew started, but after that I'm going out there to try to determine EXACTLY how much movement I have and hopefully what's actually moving. I have an exploded parts diagram so I can see where the shin bone is connected to the knee bone, but if I can't actually FIX the movement issue, I'm going to see if I can align things to minimize the effect. I had one very experienced woodworker tell me not to do anything more than aligning as best I can until I've run that saw blade up and down about a hundred times. He said, "Sometimes a brand new piece of equipment just needs to be "run in" and after you use it a while you'll need to readjust it. That assembly could be moving less than a thousandth at the pivot point which is probably close to the arbor. Less than a thousandth and you're into measuring accurately in the .0001 area and not many woodworking machines are built to tolerances in the .0001. If you have something less than a thousandth at the pivot and you go out almost 10 inches away to measure it, you've just amplified that movement by a lot. Run it in and check it again this summer. If you're only talking thousandths, you can adjust it into a range where you're both accurate and safe."

This guy has been a woodworker all his life. He said, "Pay attention to how it cuts. The RESULT is what you're after. I have a saw with numbers that would tell me it's too far out of spec, but it cuts smooth and clean every time. Hard to argue with success. LISTEN to your saw. It will sound better when it's cutting properly and you'll know exactly what I mean when you hear it. Do the absolute best job you can getting it aligned for accuracy and safety and then stop chasing numbers and listen to your saw. It'll talk to you."

I think I want him to come over and have a conversation with my saw and tell me if it's happy. heheheh
He's really good though and been doing this for probably 50 years so I'm paying attention.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Looked at this pic from the Ridgid forum...
http://www.ridgidforum.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=203&pictureid=1114
Is it possible that the the threaded rod or it's bearings are applying a sideways torque to the blade mounting frame? From your description of the issue it really sounds like something is fractionally out of shape or out of spec. Dropped or heavily jarred in shipping perhaps?


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## PigBear (Dec 14, 2010)

That looks like a nice saw, pretty well identical to what I bought - a used Ridgid TS3650. Haven't had it long but it's been a great saw.

As for waxing the top I've read to avoid auto wax as it can contain silicone and if it gets on the wood finish won't adhere properly.

I recently tried something called Top Saver after my saw got some rust on table. It worked very well to remove the rust and after two weeks it's still protecting the table. My saw sits in an unheated garage in the wet Northwest.

Top Saver makes things slide easier as well.

Sorry to hear you're having adjustment issues with the saw.


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## reikimaster (Sep 29, 2005)

DaninVan said:


> Looked at this pic from the Ridgid forum...
> http://www.ridgidforum.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=203&pictureid=1114
> Is it possible that the the threaded rod or it's bearings are applying a sideways torque to the blade mounting frame? From your description of the issue it really sounds like something is fractionally out of shape or out of spec. Dropped or heavily jarred in shipping perhaps?


Possible that SOMETHING is just slightly out of alignment. I got the "shift" down to about .003 or .004. Here's what I did today:

Opened her up and loosened the trunnions. Backed out the 0 degree and 45 degree stops located in the top of the CI table. Didn't want to be trying to push against those unknowingly. I backed out the trunnion bolts to hand tight and then moved the blade height wheel a couple turns in each direction several times. The idea was that if something was under tension, this might relax it. I then left the front left trunnion bolt snug, but loosened the other 3 just to finger tight (snug finger tight). I put a bar clamp on the rear trunnion spanning to the outside of the rear frame and put a block of wood in there between the clamp and outside of the frame to spread the load and not mark up the saw (it's still pretty!). Then I tightened the clamp slowly and moved the rear trunnion over a tiny bit at a time and kept checking alignment. I aligned the blade to the RIGHT miter slot as that's the side I'll do pretty much all my cutting on. After much try-and-try-again, I got the blade aligned satisfactorily. Once I had the blade aligned I carefully reset the zero and 45 degree stops. Then I checked the fence-to-miter-slot alignment. I didn't feel I needed to make any adjustments to that.

Here's what I ended up with:

There's still some shift depending on whether the blade was raised or lowered. But I have it down to under 5 thousandths (3 or 4). I think the "relaxing" tensions idea worked. I know it made ME feel better. 

From the RIGHT miter slot, the blade tails away from the slot by .001 at the back. So I'm within .001 and it is in a direction that won't pinch at the back of the blade on a cut. When I started it was about .008 the other way.

The fence tails away from the miter slot about .006 so I didn't mess with it.

I also used some big artist triangles I have to square the miter gauge to the slot. That was pretty easy.

The difference in performance is visible. I cut about a quarter inch off the same piece of plywood I cut BEFORE the alignment and it's noticeably cleaner. That's with the stock blade and no zero clearance insert. Got my ZCI in the mail today and my Onsrud blades should be here later this week. I'm pretty happy right now.


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## reikimaster (Sep 29, 2005)

Just got off the phone with Ridgid regarding the blade shift issue. The supervisor said they've seen this on at least one other saw and it turned out to be a problem with the gearing for raising/lowering and has to be fixed at a service center. Closest service center to me is about 90 minutes drive AND I won't be able to get this out of my shop until spring.  I don't have driving access to it and with the snow, there's no way I'm asking anyone to help carry it. One slip and someone gets hurt. 

I have it close enough now that I'm confident I can use it, but I will plan to take it apart and get it in to the service center in Batavia, NY when the weather lets me.


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## PigBear (Dec 14, 2010)

Having carried my saw down a flight of stairs when I bought it off of Craig's List, with help from my brother in law, they are heavy and unwieldy.

Sounds like you have it dialed in pretty well. I think you'll love that saw.


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## reikimaster (Sep 29, 2005)

*The saga continues...*

Talked to Ridgid, and called the Home Depot where I bought it. They have another one in stock. They're going to open it up and see if it also does that blade shift thing. If the one they have is ok, we're going to swap out the top half. 

If this thing weighed 50 pounds this would be a no brainer. But now.... getting it from the shop to my van is going to take some serious thought. It snowed since I took it back there. And now it looks like we're getting a melt. So it'll be either snow or mud or both. I wonder if a simple sled would work. Cut a radius on the front of a couple 2x4s and put a deck on it. Drag it out. 

Kind of a bummer, but I bought a saw that should be right and this one isn't. Not looking forward to taking it apart and moving it again.


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## TomE (Dec 17, 2010)

Plain ole' piece plywood to slide the saw along the ground should do the trick, assuming your terrain allows for it.


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