# Tilt Table



## Robin (Dec 2, 2008)

As anyone tried using a tilt table for a router? Having a table with a cut-out for a chair or a lower table just does not work for me. I am limited in the amount of movement I can do left to right or vice versa. If the table were tilted after mounting the work piece then I could scoot along with the work. Thanks.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Robin

You may want to check out the table Dave is making...also check out his gallery items..

http://www.routerforums.com/table-mounted-routing/10305-ak-router-table-stand-progress.html

http://www.routerforums.com/profile.php?do=editattachments&u=18806&showthumbs=1


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Robin said:


> As anyone tried using a tilt table for a router? Having a table with a cut-out for a chair or a lower table just does not work for me. I am limited in the amount of movement I can do left to right or vice versa. If the table were tilted after mounting the work piece then I could scoot along with the work. Thanks.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

bobj3 said:


> http://www.routerforums.com/table-mounted-routing/10305-ak-router-table-stand-progress.html
> 
> http://www.routerforums.com/profile.php?do=editattachments&u=18806&showthumbs=1


Hi Bob: I figure we should be able to do better than this. We've got enough knowledge and experience here to ... you know what I mean.

What about that "E Z Smart" system? You've seen and heard more than I. What do you think?

Hi Robin: time to put our collective heads together. First, what kind of handicap -- what kind of mobility do you have and where is your strength and where are you weak. You have reduced mobility -- don't give us your life story or case history but we do need to know what we need to consider to develop a solution.

One of the questions that will dicatate how things work would be "what do you want to make?"

One of our members "Template Tom" taught a blind man to use a router so it is reasonable that you could use one. We just have to figure out how.

Allthunbs


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

HI Ron

This is always a hard one, more info would be nice but I think he wants to use the router table set at a 45 deg.then just move the stock by the bit...plus he may be in a wheel chair.. it's so hard to help with just so little info..

But I think Dave's table would be a good starting point to get him to open up with just a bit more info 

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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Robin, we are happy to assist members with problems. Could you please be more specific about your range of motion? Are you in a chair? We will figure out a method that will let you safely use your router.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

bobj3 said:


> HI Ron
> 
> This is always a hard one, more info would be nice but I think he wants to use the router table set at a 45 deg.then just move the stock by the bit...plus he may be in a wheel chair.. it's so hard to help with just so little info..
> 
> ...


Hi Bob and Mike: Absolutely, more info is required. The question becomes if his movement is weak from side to side, we can't put a router above him on a table. If it gets off centre, he'll have a 25,000 rpm screaming monster sitting in his lap. I'm in agreement a table mount would be good depending on what he wants to do. However, I would also like to consider fixed skis. Fix the ends, allow adjustment for height, he can set depth of cut and slide the router along the skis to make his cuts. No unwanted movement of the router. As long as it remains a light router, say no more than 2hp, he should be fine.

It will require a shop built router baseplate and if we use drill rod for the rails, we can use UHMW for the sliding bearings. Ease of movement, complete control, safe within limits, meets my criteria.

However, the EZ System may provide more mobility. I have no experience with that product so you guys are going to have to provide the input there.

However, until we get info from Robin, we're pretty well stymied. 

Allthunbs


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## Bob N (Oct 12, 2004)

I have the E-Z System and I don't think it will resolve the problem, but until we hear more from Robin, it is hard to say for sure.


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## Robin (Dec 2, 2008)

Morning everyone, first thanks for the help. I get around using a walker/cane. I wear a wrap-around upper body brace. Like the one "Superman" Christopher Reeves used but without the neck part. The brace starts at the hip joints and extends to the underarm area. I saw a barber using a swivel stool mounted on an arm attached to the barber's chair. I thought about changing that to a track mounted under the lip of the router table. I want to start making signs to mount on wood poles. Nothing fancy but nice. One idea I had is mounting the router on a radial arm and moving it around the work piece. Another plan was to tilt the table. Again, thank you. Robin


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

HI Robin

Using a RAS may be the best way for you,,,it would only take one hand to do the job..

It's almost a over head pin router with all the bells and whistles in one tools..

It's not to hard to setup, but you may need someone to make the router bracket for you..

see some snapshots below for just some tips how to set it up..

The router bracket is just some flat washer and some 1/4" steel flat bar stock.. ( washers are called A325 type that you can get from just about any bolt and nut supply outlet..for about 5.oo dollars total...


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Robin said:


> Morning everyone, first thanks for the help. I get around using a walker/cane. I wear a wrap-around upper body brace. Like the one "Superman" Christopher Reeves used but without the neck part. The brace starts at the hip joints and extends to the underarm area. I saw a barber using a swivel stool mounted on an arm attached to the barber's chair. I thought about changing that to a track mounted under the lip of the router table. I want to start making signs to mount on wood poles. Nothing fancy but nice. One idea I had is mounting the router on a radial arm and moving it around the work piece. Another plan was to tilt the table. Again, thank you. Robin


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Robin said:


> Morning everyone, first thanks for the help. I get around using a walker/cane. I wear a wrap-around upper body brace. Like the one "Superman" Christopher Reeves used but without the neck part. The brace starts at the hip joints and extends to the underarm area. I saw a barber using a swivel stool mounted on an arm attached to the barber's chair. I thought about changing that to a track mounted under the lip of the router table. I want to start making signs to mount on wood poles. Nothing fancy but nice. One idea I had is mounting the router on a radial arm and moving it around the work piece. Another plan was to tilt the table. Again, thank you. Robin


Ok, this is a start. When you turn, do you turn at the hips or do you turn at your toes? Do you have lifting strength in your arms? When you lift can you use your legs, or do you have to use your waist or back? Can you do anything propped on your elbows - i.e. partially bent over, using a table for support? When you sit at a the table for supper, is the chair a normal kitchen chair or has it, or the table, been modified for height? How long can you sit at the table or do you have to move frequently?

A typical router table would be 34" - 36" tall and is usually meant to be stood at. In this instance, standing for that length of time would be prohibitive. Next, we've got to figure out support for your torso at a convenient height to minimize fatigue. You don't want to get so tired with a router that you can't controll it.

Can you use an office type chair that has adjustable height? Do you have to use arms on a chair to get yourself in and out? Can you adjust an office-type chair? If you happen to miss the adjustment and the chair bottoms out, can you get yourself rearranged without help?

This next part is for your own research. Search through this forum for something called "skis." There are several philosophies for sign making, freehand, templates and potentially, skis. 

I want you to examine carefully the article I wrote on skis and those written by others. Then I want you to imagine yourself using skis. You see me and Harrysin using skis I want you to duplicate that action. Stretch your arms out, 24" or 36" apart, supported by your hands or forearms and see if you hurt anywhere. Keep that position for 10 - 15 minutes or longer. The objective is to see if that kind of movement and action will aggrivate your condition. To do some work I've been in that position for as much as half an hour at a time. I take a break and go back to it.

Do you have a router right now? If not, you'll specifically need a router with the two wrench collet. Others on this forum will be able to help with brands and models. The single wrench kind requires that you use your body to brace the router to install, tighten and remove bits.

However, there are three classes of routers that I can easily define: there's the "palm router" also known as the "laminate trimmer." These are small, light, typically 1 hp and take 1/4" bits. The downside is they have no support in the marketplace for doing "routing type" jobs. You can't get a baseplate. It won't fit into a table, and a bunch of other shortcomings. The flip side is it's not difficult to make all of this stuff.

The next class are the 2hp combo type. These are heavier and can come with a fixed and a plunge base and a few attachments. This is the "hobby level, half way between the Palm and the Monster." There is some support out there for this class but not all routers are supported well.

Then there's the monster class. This group is 3+ hp, >12 lbs., support for just about anything you want to do. Skis - no problem, table mount - no problem, bits - every bit imaginable and a few you never thought would exist, tips and tricks to modify - just about any modification you can think of. 

Personally, if I were in your shoes, I wouldn't go with anything larger than the palm router. I like the Makita but others highly recommend the Bosch. 

Next, the bases. Typically, the palm class come with a fixed base with a cumbersome depth adjustment method. My old Makita 3700 has a thumb screw that you loosen and then holding the base and the router motor, adjust the depth and then, hold the router and tighten the screw and hope nothing moves. This is a pain in the el-rasbutnick (the ass.) You hang onto this guy by wrapping your hand around the body of the router. Typically one good strong construction worker can one-hand this router.

The fixed base for >2hp is a different animal. It usually is a big ring around the router motor. Turning the ring raises and lowers the motor in the base. You loosen a knob, adjust the position of the motor with the ring and retighten the knob. This is my preferred option for you. It comes in several flavours, "D" handle where you litterally have a great big "D" that you hang onto along with a knob on the other side of the router. Then there's the two handled variety just like plunge routers. Both these have good points and bad especially for your situation.

The next base is the plunge. This is the preferred option for most wood workers but could be the worst for you. If you have two hands and can put some weight on the router, this is good. In some instances, you may still want a plunge base but a lot will depend on your ability to push down with your hands. Here's the picture - stick your hands out at a table and push down. Can you lift yourself out of a chair like that? That's the kind of motion a plunge router requires. Ok, I'm exaggerating but that's the movement. Can you handle that?

Do you live near any other forum members? Can you get in touch with someone on the forum. Here's why. We're coming up with all kinds of ideas and ways of doing things. However, some of them require experience with routers to implement. Skis for example can be easily assembled. But they can be a real pain if we have to fabricate parts. Scraps of wood are no problem but UHMW might need to be cut and drilled for bearings and that could be a pain to do. Styrene may have to be machined to use as a baseplate for a palm router.

Right now, we're experimenting. From this we'll learn and each time we hear from you we get a better and better picture. 

Follow the above and come back with your feelings and hurts.

Allthunbs


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

bobj3 said:


> HI Robin
> 
> Using a RAS may be the best way for you,,,it would only take one hand to do the job..
> 
> ...


Robin, I just saw this. Test this philosophy as well. The height/depth adjustment is under the table and is a crank. The arm locks and requires the release on top of the arm be pulled to change the movement of the arm. The motor moves back and forth on the arm and locks in any place. Those locks require body movement. If you can find a radial arm saw to try the various movements and locks would go a long way to helping determine what movements you can handle. Your local HD might have some on display that you can try out.

Allthunbs


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Robin, if you can bring your hands together about 18-24" in front of your face then an overarm router would work well for you. With these machines you lower the bit into position and then move the wood. I am including a photo of a home built plan and another similar machine.


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## dovetail_65 (Jan 22, 2008)

The only problem with the over arm router is the massive mess it creates, which may or may not be an issue for you. It is very difficult to create effective dust collection because every operation on the Pin router is different dependent upon the template or jig you are using. The dust collection issue is the sole reason I got rid of my pin routers. A pin router is great for making the same shape over and over and that I do miss, but I now have other ways.

So if sweeping up or working out effective dust collection for every project is an issue I would consider something other than a pin router. My opinion only.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

nickao65 said:


> The only problem with the over arm router is the massive mess it creates, which may or may not be an issue for you. It is very difficult to create effective dust collection because every operation on the Pin router is different dependent upon the template or jig you are using. The dust collection issue is the sole reason I got rid of my pin routers. A pin router is great for making the same shape over and over and that I do miss, but I now have other ways.
> 
> So if sweeping up or working out effective dust collection for every project is an issue I would consider something other than a pin router. My opinion only.


Hey Nick: go back through this thread will you and see if you think skis might work, say with a 2hp Ridgid or something not too heavy? Is the Ridgid a two wrench system or does it have a spindle lock?

Allthunbs


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## dovetail_65 (Jan 22, 2008)

I am not a ski person as I never have made one, though I started one in the past and will eventually complete it.

I defer to the other guys here to help out with that.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Guys

I'm not to sure if you could use the ski setup, it's true it will hold the weight of the router for him BUT maybe the pin router is the way to go for him.


I have the MLCS pin router setup and it's easy one to use..and a snap to setup as well..
One lever to use it...

http://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/smarthtml/pages/daisypin.html

I did rework just a bit so it sits up a bit higher than the norm and longer brass guide pins.
So it could put 6" tall stock/boxes under the guide pin.. 

.
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## Robin (Dec 2, 2008)

Thanks. This will take a few to digest. To turn left/right I use my hands and feet to turn the entire body. Have not found a chair for the dining table that works (allows for the brace part that extends past the hips) so I kneel at a coffee table to eat. Using the computer with a bar stool allows for the brace and using the feet to turn. The rest I will get back to you. Thanks


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## TAJones (Dec 31, 2008)

Very interesting subject and very interesting to me as i have had 4 strokes lost some of my motor skills on the left side of my body, not able to stand for periods of more than about 30 minutes and can barely lift anything over 20 pounds. I am at the present building my shop to as close to a rolling chair height as possible.. I have found most everything i need to modify for my life disabilities. My scariest problem is getting cut as I take Plavix so going slow and being extra careful is always at the top of my thoughts, even a small cut means a run to the ER. Right now I have a Dewalt 1/4" shaft and a Sea 1/2" shank router, but plan on getting a Palm to replace the Dewalt for doing handheld work and then replacing the Sears later on. i make just about all my jigs.. It just takes me 4 or 5 times longer than it used to take. This is a really great forum with tons of great info. I use a rolling chair to move about while working and have replaced the front wheels with wheels that lock.. Right now I am building a router table that will be mounted on the side of my table saw. I thought about a tilted table, but now just plan on removing the table saw's legs and putting it on a low cabinet for routing while sitting down

Tom 



Robin said:


> As anyone tried using a tilt table for a router? Having a table with a cut-out for a chair or a lower table just does not work for me. I am limited in the amount of movement I can do left to right or vice versa. If the table were tilted after mounting the work piece then I could scoot along with the work. Thanks.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

TAJones said:


> Very interesting subject and very interesting to me as i have had 4 strokes lost some of my motor skills on the left side of my body, not able to stand for periods of more than about 30 minutes and can barely lift anything over 20 pounds. I am at the present building my shop to as close to a rolling chair height as possible.. I have found most everything i need to modify for my life disabilities. My scariest problem is getting cut as I take Plavix so going slow and being extra careful is always at the top of my thoughts, even a small cut means a run to the ER. Right now I have a Dewalt 1/4" shaft and a Sea 1/2" shank router, but plan on getting a Palm to replace the Dewalt for doing handheld work and then replacing the Sears later on. i make just about all my jigs.. It just takes me 4 or 5 times longer than it used to take. This is a really great forum with tons of great info. I use a rolling chair to move about while working and have replaced the front wheels with wheels that lock.. Right now I am building a router table that will be mounted on the side of my table saw. I thought about a tilted table, but now just plan on removing the table saw's legs and putting it on a low cabinet for routing while sitting down
> 
> Tom


Tom: hold on. Take a look at skiis. Search for them in the search window above. I wrote two articles for neophytes and HarrySin and Bob3j also have contributions. Read all of them before you start figuring our your table. It is possible that skis will serve you better than table mounted. Also skis can support the weight and power of all of your routers. Read those items than come back here with your observations then will discuss which direction you head you in.

Allthunbs


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Tom

I would suggest a round router table top and base cabinet for you  as you know a fence can be locked down anywhere on the top..

I would also suggest a round base cabinet so you can get your rolling chair under the edge of the top, the base, just hold the router with a cabinet next to hold the bits,jig,etc. you may need to screw the base down to the floor but that's not a big deal now with all the new type anchors they have out now..

The top would be 24" in diam. the router hole would be in the center of the top...

You can also get and use a round mounting plate by Veritas
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=41776&cat=1,43000,51208&ap=1
This would made it a bit essayer for you to change the bits out..or adjust them.. 

With just a little bit of rework you could use some 1/4" drive universals to make a easy router lift to adjust the bit for you...  from the from side of the table top..

Here's a small quick drawing how to make the lift... 

http://www.grizzly.com/products/Handscrew-Kit-6-/H2850

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TAJones said:


> Very interesting subject and very interesting to me as i have had 4 strokes lost some of my motor skills on the left side of my body, not able to stand for periods of more than about 30 minutes and can barely lift anything over 20 pounds. I am at the present building my shop to as close to a rolling chair height as possible.. I have found most everything i need to modify for my life disabilities. My scariest problem is getting cut as I take Plavix so going slow and being extra careful is always at the top of my thoughts, even a small cut means a run to the ER. Right now I have a Dewalt 1/4" shaft and a Sea 1/2" shank router, but plan on getting a Palm to replace the Dewalt for doing handheld work and then replacing the Sears later on. i make just about all my jigs.. It just takes me 4 or 5 times longer than it used to take. This is a really great forum with tons of great info. I use a rolling chair to move about while working and have replaced the front wheels with wheels that lock.. Right now I am building a router table that will be mounted on the side of my table saw. I thought about a tilted table, but now just plan on removing the table saw's legs and putting it on a low cabinet for routing while sitting down
> 
> Tom


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## swissarmyknife1 (Dec 21, 2008)

Just a quick thought, but has anyone ever suggested suspending the router "under" a rolling stool frame? It would make using a plunge router "liftable" for poor arm strength, a large "wheelbase" would allow for broad secure handholds and on a larger work surface allow "freehand" sign cuttting. What do you guys think?


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Bob and Swissarmyknife:

Take both your ideas and put them together. Put the router toward the centre of a circular table that is sitting on a lazysusan bearing. This can be accomplished with a groove routed into the table top and matching base to allow 1/8" clearance. Use glass marbles as bearings sitting in wax or vaseline and use weatherstripping (the brush type) to act as a dust barrier. A tredle lock can be included to lock the top in position or released to allow movement.

The fence can be clamped relative to the bit and because the router is mounted to the tabletop, that relationship is stable. Release the lock and the whole thing turns changing the working position without changing anything else.

Just a suggestions. Brainstorming here.

Allthunbs


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## Slinking (Jan 4, 2009)

Can you make a jig or fixture for it?..........that way you move the workpiece instead of changing the angle of the bit.......kinda like a 45 degree sled?

Just trying to help.
Scott


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## Slinking (Jan 4, 2009)

*Scott*

Hey, I like that idea about the router under the rolling stool frame.

You might really be onto something there.

Hey.......somebody once dreamed up a router table, right?
Scott


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## TAJones (Dec 31, 2008)

So, many good idea to think about. I like the rotating table idea...


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## Robin (Dec 2, 2008)

So a very large Lazy Susan for rotation and how about drawer slides for left to right? At first I thought maybe a suspended table but then you have work surface wobble. The router would be actually bolted to an under-frame and the table/work piece moves around that. Throw in the ability to tilt the front face of the "table" up and down for ease of movement. 
MMMMMMMMMMMMM!


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## Robin (Dec 2, 2008)

PS
Think of a normal router table stand. What if the entire mechanism we are describing can be raised or lowered? Have old style bumper jack parts on the device hooked to a central crank. Rotate, raise, lower, tilt, slide and all controls/device operator points at one central position.
Robin


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Lots of re inventing the wheel going on here. The stool idea is overkill. A router set up on a ski jig is very easy to move and far more stable than it would be on casters or wheels. Motorised router lifts are available. Bob and Rick say: "KISS" (keep it simple stupid) and for good reason. For routing with out any strain, lifting or movement there are CNC machines like the CarveWright or CompuCarve. That way all your energy is devoted to developing the concept and the machine does the work for you.


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## Lemuzz (Jul 25, 2008)

Hi Im an engineer and have developed for spinal patients a multi angle arm for them to mount their TV, computer etc for them to use whether they are lying down in traction or sitting in their wheelchair. A similar concept could be used to mount a router. This arm could be attached to a table and would have infinite movement over the surface of the table. the weight of the router would be born by this arm. The operator would only need to guide it. The next stage could provide router height adjustment either using a wind up handle or an electrical actuator perhaps coupled to a digital readout to raise the router at the end of the cut, the options are endless, limited only to your imagination and your bank balance.
The first stage mentioned above would cost about the same as a router, about NZ $300 or $400 for the arm, post, and router attachment. Any good engineer could produce one.
One of my computer arms will easily support a 10kg computer (about 22 lbs).


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Lemuzz said:


> Hi Im an engineer and have developed for spinal patients a multi angle arm for them to mount their TV, computer etc for them to use whether they are lying down in traction or sitting in their wheelchair. A similar concept could be used to mount a router. This arm could be attached to a table and would have infinite movement over the surface of the table. the weight of the router would be born by this arm. The operator would only need to guide it. The next stage could provide router height adjustment either using a wind up handle or an electrical actuator perhaps coupled to a digital readout to raise the router at the end of the cut, the options are endless, limited only to your imagination and your bank balance.
> The first stage mentioned above would cost about the same as a router, about NZ $300 or $400 for the arm, post, and router attachment. Any good engineer could produce one.
> One of my computer arms will easily support a 10kg computer (about 22 lbs).


Hi Lemuzz: I think you're describing a radial arm router. In essence, take a radial arm saw, remove the saw motor and replace it with a router. I'm not sure it would work in this instance. Robin has limited left/right movement. 

However, I do need your council in another direction. Go back a few posts and you'll see where I combine several other posts into a round router table sitting on a lazy susan. How can I lock that lazy susan and still retain the pressure on the bearings? If I put a wedge in the side, I'll lift the bearing slightly and thus throw the relationship between the operator and the table/fence off. Suggestions?

Allthunbs


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## Lemuzz (Jul 25, 2008)

Robin said:


> Morning everyone, first thanks for the help. I get around using a walker/cane. I wear a wrap-around upper body brace. Like the one "Superman" Christopher Reeves used but without the neck part. The brace starts at the hip joints and extends to the underarm area. I saw a barber using a swivel stool mounted on an arm attached to the barber's chair. I thought about changing that to a track mounted under the lip of the router table. I want to start making signs to mount on wood poles. Nothing fancy but nice. One idea I had is mounting the router on a radial arm and moving it around the work piece. Another plan was to tilt the table. Again, thank you. Robin


Hi As Robin intends making signs would it not to be to his advantage having the router above rather than below the work, so he can see where he is working? If so is it easier to move the tool ( the router ) over the work, or the work past the cutter? if the router is under the work as in a table, you become more limited with router movement therefore the work must move. Robin, do you have movement fore and aft as opposed to left and right? And how restricted left and right? Routing free hand and with a pattern requires movement in two planes, I am sure with a bit of thought and help from contributors we can reach a solution for you and others with disabilities.


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## Lemuzz (Jul 25, 2008)

allthunbs said:


> Hi Lemuzz: I think you're describing a radial arm router. In essence, take a radial arm saw, remove the saw motor and replace it with a router. I'm not sure it would work in this instance. Robin has limited left/right movement.
> 
> However, I do need your council in another direction. Go back a few posts and you'll see where I combine several other posts into a round router table sitting on a lazy susan. How can I lock that lazy susan and still retain the pressure on the bearings? If I put a wedge in the side, I'll lift the bearing slightly and thus throw the relationship between the operator and the table/fence off. Suggestions?
> 
> Allthunbs


yes loosely similar to the radial arm as shown in a previous post but much, much lighter and with the arm articulated. This would work well for someone with use of one arm, or possibly wrist movement only could could control it if fitted with a small router.
Regarding your question. Perhaps the lazy susan could be supported on springs under it. To lock simply foot on a pedal which would compress the springs pulling the table onto a fixed plate. The work would rise perhaps a mm or two, with foot off the pedal, so the router would need to be lifted and re set, or perhaps the router could also follow the lazy susan's vertical movement in which case the relationship of router and work would remain the same, but cost would creep up in this instance. For any one suggestion there are 100's of other ways to do something, so lets see firstly what Robin can do with regards to movement and strength and also the opinions of others. There is no doubt someone will come up with a suggestion and a light will switch on in somebodys mind and down the track Robin and many others will be better for it


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Lemuzz said:


> Hi As Robin intends making signs would it not to be to his advantage having the router above rather than below the work, so he can see where he is working? If so is it easier to move the tool ( the router ) over the work, or the work past the cutter? if the router is under the work as in a table, you become more limited with router movement therefore the work must move. Robin, do you have movement fore and aft as opposed to left and right? And how restricted left and right? Routing free hand and with a pattern requires movement in two planes, I am sure with a bit of thought and help from contributors we can reach a solution for you and others with disabilities.


Hi Lemuzz: I had originally thought that skis would be ideal. I wasn't sure if he could handle the weight of even a "light" 2hp router so I held back. The skis wouldn't depend on left right movement since it doesn't require upper body movement. I prop myself on my elbows and in really close tolerances, I use the heel of my hand to move the skis. However, mounting and dismounding and setup could be problematic especially where there may be weakness. If he "fell" into his weak zone, he may not be able to recover and the router could go tumbling.

If I were there, it would be different, I could set something up, examine the movements, modify the jig, and so on. That ain't gonna happen, unless there's a member of the forum nearby who can be the eyes and fingers for us.

Comments and suggestions?

Allthunbs


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## TAJones (Dec 31, 2008)

I have been thinking about a overhead mounted router on a computer monitor arm with maybe adjustable skies for height. I will have to give it some thought, maybe some rollers on the bottom of moniter mount to hold the height as you roll the router around on the work piece. I did make an adapter for my radial arm and I like how it works, up down and tilt.....next is to make a plate to replace blade guard on radial arm with plate for router so I can mount router horizonial and do mortises. If I thought the radial arm would spin a router bit fast enough I would make a collet adapter and just screw it onto the shaft.. Too many ideas and not enough time...........


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## Lemuzz (Jul 25, 2008)

TAJones said:


> I have been thinking about a overhead mounted router on a computer monitor arm with maybe adjustable skies for height. I will have to give it some thought, maybe some rollers on the bottom of moniter mount to hold the height as you roll the router around on the work piece. I did make an adapter for my radial arm and I like how it works, up down and tilt.....next is to make a plate to replace blade guard on radial arm with plate for router so I can mount router horizonial and do mortises. If I thought the radial arm would spin a router bit fast enough I would make a collet adapter and just screw it onto the shaft.. Too many ideas and not enough time...........


I too thought about a depth guide similar to your suggestion on a monitor arm. It has possibilities
Regarding a radial arm saw you would only have fore and aft movement and would be a bit limiting as movement in two planes and also a convenient depth adjustment adjustment would be required for sign making


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

*sign makers input please*

I'm going back a bit to what Robin said. He's thinking of a round table that can rotate and potentially tilt. If we took some 3/4" plywood laminated to 1 1/2" drilled throughout the surface and used the holes for bench dogs. This would allow material to be held and the table rotated as necessary. This would be ideal for any signmaker since he constantly is viewing and working his signs from different directions. The size of the circle becomes the major question.

Now, add to the round table the overhead suspended support structure like your suggestions with the monitor arm. The only thing I can't do is tilt. The overhead structure becomes too unstable, even with counterbalancing springs.

All you signage types out there. Do you work from the side of your signs or from the top? I have to assume that we're trying to duplicate freehand signage techniques. 

Comments?

Allthunbs


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## Lemuzz (Jul 25, 2008)

allthunbs said:


> I'm going back a bit to what Robin said. He's thinking of a round table that can rotate and potentially tilt. If we took some 3/4" plywood laminated to 1 1/2" drilled throughout the surface and used the holes for bench dogs. This would allow material to be held and the table rotated as necessary. This would be ideal for any signmaker since he constantly is viewing and working his signs from different directions. The size of the circle becomes the major question.
> 
> Now, add to the round table the overhead suspended support structure like your suggestions with the monitor arm. The only thing I can't do is tilt. The overhead structure becomes too unstable, even with counterbalancing springs.
> 
> ...


No. The structure wouldn't need springs.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Lemuzz said:


> No. The structure wouldn't need springs.


Even if the supporting structure is tilted?

Allthunbs


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## Lemuzz (Jul 25, 2008)

allthunbs said:


> Even if the supporting structure is tilted?
> 
> Allthunbs


I thinking we are thinking from different angles. I wasn't thinking of a tilt table.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Lemuzz said:


> I thinking we are thinking from different angles. I wasn't thinking of a tilt table.


Hi Lemuzz: in Robin's original post he was asking about a tilt capability. Your suggestion and add springs as a counterbalance might work with a tilt. He's also talking about being able to raise and lower it.

I know we would like to eliminate the tilt capability but it appears it may be necessary. That's where your suggestion seems appropriate if we could only limit/eliminate travel if he ever had to let go. 

Now, there is something else. He is wanting to make signs. That means that he's going to want to tilt the router in various directions. Your "floating arm" suggestion seems to be the only way we can address this.

Just a note in passing, if the router is top mounted, it should have a "dead man" switch on it to kill it if he ever lets go. Can it be wired into the existing switch so as not to disable any electric brake capability?

Allthunbs


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## Lemuzz (Jul 25, 2008)

No my suggestion to add springs was to stop any table movement while routing. ie. foot on a pedal which would overcome spring pressure and pull the table on to a fixed plate. 
My original thought was an articulated arm which would rotate on its axis. At this point it could be raised or lowered perhaps electrically with the push of a button or foot switch. The arm would be articulated which would allow movement over the full table. The operator could sit at a table and with wrist movement only control the movement of the router. If a rise and fall were introduced it would be like having 3 dimensional skis. Yes a switch could be wired as you suggest and would be a necessary safety feature


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Lemuzz said:


> No my suggestion to add springs was to stop any table movement while routing. ie. foot on a pedal which would overcome spring pressure and pull the table on to a fixed plate.
> My original thought was an articulated arm which would rotate on its axis. At this point it could be raised or lowered perhaps electrically with the push of a button or foot switch. The arm would be articulated which would allow movement over the full table. The operator could sit at a table and with wrist movement only control the movement of the router. If a rise and fall were introduced it would be like having 3 dimensional skis. Yes a switch could be wired as you suggest and would be a necessary safety feature


Hi Lemuzz: Hey, we're getting somewhere.

Now, the articulated arm, rotating on its axis, raised or lowered - excellent except can I add the router should have movement off it's vertical axis? When entering a cut in a sign, you want to angle the router so the bit starts with a very shallow entry cut and gradually increase until full depth of cut is achieved.

We have a table that rotates, locks down so there is no movement but we still don't have tilt. The articulated arm allows the tilt to happen since the arm is in full control of the router. How to control the tilt? The tilt is not the problem, merelly add a hinge to the middle of the table on a piece of threaded rod but we still have to control the tilt. Take some of the pressure off the hinge and the tilt will flop around. Do we install tilt in any direction like a ball and socket or on one axis like a hinge? If we use the hinge method as the focus of the tilt, how do we indicate that location to the operator?

Lots of questions, but at least we're starting to ask the "right" questions.

Allthunbs


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## Lemuzz (Jul 25, 2008)

allthunbs said:


> Hi Lemuzz: Hey, we're getting somewhere.
> 
> Now, the articulated arm, rotating on its axis, raised or lowered - excellent except can I add the router should have movement off it's vertical axis? When entering a cut in a sign, you want to angle the router so the bit starts with a very shallow entry cut and gradually increase until full depth of cut is achieved.
> 
> ...


Yes we are getting somewhere. How many planes do we need to tilt. It's easy to tilt the router on the arm say from vertical to 45deg and lock in place, in one direction, coupled with rise and fall on the arm. This leads to another solution. Hands off and every movement locks up. would prevent a machine flailing round if it were to get out of control.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Lemuzz said:


> Yes we are getting somewhere. How many planes do we need to tilt. It's easy to tilt the router on the arm say from vertical to 45deg and lock in place, in one direction, coupled with rise and fall on the arm. This leads to another solution. Hands off and every movement locks up. would prevent a machine flailing round if it were to get out of control.


I'm thinking the table in one plane, toward the operator and away but I wouldn't want to tilt more than 5 degrees, maybe 10. More and we'd have to lift the table to clear his knees and thighs and then there is the risk that everything could slide into his lap if he forgot to tighten a clamp. 

The tilt on the router could be as much as 30 degrees. What is the entry angle for a serif in a serif typeface? 10 degrees? Can we limit the router angle to 30 degrees from the table surface? I wouldn't want an oversight to put the router at a dangerous angle.

Hands off is excellent. How, dead man switch on the router handle? What about hands off, router moves above the workpiece and shuts down? Is that additional action problematic? It would have to travel in perfect line with the centre line of the router bit. Wouldn't want to spoil a good job with a little fatigue or a twinge of pain.

You know, you've just designed the state of the art router sign making table.

It will be interesting to hear what the sign boys have to say.

Allthunbs


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## Lemuzz (Jul 25, 2008)

allthunbs said:


> I'm thinking the table in one plane, toward the operator and away but I wouldn't want to tilt more than 5 degrees, maybe 10. More and we'd have to lift the table to clear his knees and thighs and then there is the risk that everything could slide into his lap if he forgot to tighten a clamp.
> 
> The tilt on the router could be as much as 30 degrees. What is the entry angle for a serif in a serif typeface? 10 degrees? Can we limit the router angle to 30 degrees from the table surface? I wouldn't want an oversight to put the router at a dangerous angle.
> 
> ...


Hi Allthumbs. Does the table need to tilt if the router tilts or vice versa. If the arm moves in one plane around its axis and with the ability to rise and fall as required and also the router angle able to be controlled. 
If we introduce the tilt table for and aft we get a depth of cut problem as the router would travel be travelling in a level plane over a sloping table. I have no signmaking experience and have difficulty visualising the need for the tilt table. Perhaps you could help me with the procedure, particularly where the entry needs to be angled. 
Yes. Tilt could be limited to any angle, I just suggested 45deg. 
As I see it;
The router would travel in a level plane on an arm above the table but be free to rotate around it's axis. This arm to articulate horizontally. The arm have rise and fall of perhaps 50mm. This is controlled from the base of the arm. The router at the end of the arm, able to tilt say 30deg left and right and locked in any position within this range. 
Hands off and both pivots lock and arm rises to clear router bit from the work and shuts router down


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## Lemuzz (Jul 25, 2008)

Have just seen a potential problem with tilting the router as the arm extends and retracts. Will rethink.


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## Lemuzz (Jul 25, 2008)

I have dealings with spinal patients and getting them into a productive hobby would be a good achivement, so any suggestions from others would be appreciated.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Lemuzz said:


> Hi Allthumbs. Does the table need to tilt if the router tilts or vice versa. If the arm moves in one plane around its axis and with the ability to rise and fall as required and also the router angle able to be controlled.


This was a request from Robin. I'm thinking that table height may be an issue. If the table is too high, router control becomes a problem, if the table is too low, we could introduce back pain and the only way to resolve it is to tilt the table slightly.



Lemuzz said:


> If we introduce the tilt table for and aft we get a depth of cut problem as the router would travel be travelling in a level plane over a sloping table. I have no signmaking experience and have difficulty visualising the need for the tilt table. Perhaps you could help me with the procedure, particularly where the entry needs to be angled.


I watched a sighmaker cut a serif font (the kind of characters that have a foot on the top and bottom of the letter.) The way he made the character was to tilt the router on its base so the bit baretly touched the surface of the sign. As he moved forward he tilted the router upright and that's what gave the gradual groove to start the letter.



Lemuzz said:


> Yes. Tilt could be limited to any angle, I just suggested 45deg.
> 
> As I see it;
> The router would travel in a level plane on an arm above the table but be free to rotate around it's axis. This arm to articulate horizontally. The arm have rise and fall of perhaps 50mm. This is controlled from the base of the arm. The router at the end of the arm, able to tilt say 30deg left and right and locked in any position within this range.
> Hands off and both pivots lock and arm rises to clear router bit from the work and shuts router down


Perhaps the router on a restricted gimble so it can tilt in any direction but be limited to 10 degrees?

My concern is the articulation of the router arm. If the table is tilted, the arm would have to be tilted as well which would require the articulation to compensate for the difference in the direction the weight would travel.

Interesting stuff.

Allthunbs


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Lemuzz said:


> Have just seen a potential problem with tilting the router as the arm extends and retracts. Will rethink.


I think you've just seen it. As the table tilts it increases spring tension on the articulation of the arm??

Allthunbs


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Lemuzz said:


> I have dealings with spinal patients and getting them into a productive hobby would be a good achivement, so any suggestions from others would be appreciated.


I agree completely. There was a bunch of other people here a while ago, not to mention the years of experience and even others with physical challenges.

If there's something you don't understand speak up. It causes the rest of us to clearly state what we're thinking, not just throwing it out assuming others will pick it up.

Allthunbs


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## Lemuzz (Jul 25, 2008)

allthunbs;107670
Perhaps the router on a restricted gimble so it can tilt in any direction but be limited to 10 degrees?
My concern is the articulation of the router arm. If the table is tilted said:


> Yes The arm would have to be horizontal otherwise the weight would want to go to the lowest point This was why the tilt table wouldn't work with an articulated arm


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Lemuzz said:


> Yes The arm would have to be horizontal otherwise the weight would want to go to the lowest point This was why the tilt table wouldn't work with an articulated arm


Sure it will. The supporting structure for the articulated arm is attached to the table base. The table base is where the hinge is located that controls the tilt of the table. The lazy susan sits on top of the table base to allow the table to rotate. When the tilt is enabled, a strap between the tilt and the table base below the hinge increases the spring tension on the articulated arm thus compensating for the difference in the weight of the router. (bad terminology) Did I get this close?

Allthunbs


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## Lemuzz (Jul 25, 2008)

I wish sign makers and other users would join in to help us lol


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## TAJones (Dec 31, 2008)

Amazon.com: Vermont American: Home Improvement

How the 3d Carving Pantograph Works

Robin, poke arount these two links....


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