# Compound Angled Box Joints



## DHB (Dec 30, 2012)

Hi All, very new to this forum, so hope this is the correct area for my question. I'm currently trying to design and make a jig that will allow me to use my router to make box joints which are at 15 degrees to the horizontal on each face. These joints feature on a WW1 Ammunition Box. 
Has anyone any experience or knowledge of such joints/jigs?
I have made a jig for use on my saw table, but it requires the blade to be angled over at 15 degrees, is awkward to use, and requires all the joints to be cleaned out with a chisel (I don't have a band saw unfortunately).
I've sketched out a design to be used with the router, but before going ahead with this was wondering if something already exists.


----------



## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Welcome Dave.

Tell you what... If you go to the introduction section and say "hello" to a few people, you could quickly get to 10 posts... Then you can post links and upload attachments.

I'd really like to see the sketch you have to make sure I have a clear picture of what you are trying to do before commenting. I think I have an idea of what you are talking about and know several different ways to do it... But that depends on if we are thinking about the same thing. Do you have a sketch or picture of what you are trying to make?

Edit-- What joint are you trying to make? An angled box joint for a mitered styled finger joint on a right angle edge? Or angled finger joint for an angled side that is other than right angles? Or a joint that is at right angles, but has a slight bevel top to bottom along the joint?


----------



## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Hi Dave and welcome to the forum. I agree with Mike, a picture would be helpful. There are quite a few new members signing on today. Easy way to get to 10 posts.


----------



## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Are you talking about a hinge joint ?,you pick it

WWI OR WWII US WOODEN AMMO BOX W/CANVAS HANDLE NEAT ITEM on eBay!

==


----------



## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

bobj3 said:


> Are you talking about a hinge joint ?,you pick it
> 
> WWI OR WWII US WOODEN AMMO BOX W/CANVAS HANDLE NEAT ITEM on eBay!
> 
> ==


That one, just like this one (better pictures)... is dovetailed:
WWII Early Wooden Ammo Box Dovetail 30 Cal MG WW2 Military War Army | eBay


----------



## DHB (Dec 30, 2012)

Thanks Mike, much appreciated. I'll get the posts done quickly and provide a photo of the joints in question, as I have a box to copy from.


----------



## OPG3 (Jan 9, 2011)

I am adding a comment to stay subscribed to this one. In the two photos offered by members Mike & Bob, I did not see a compound mitered finger joint, but rather typical (right angled) box and dovetail joints. I am not saying it ain't there - I just didn't see it. There also appears to be a hinge (a.k.a. rule) joint. I must be missing something - so my curiosity. Mitered finger joint - no big deal, but _*compound*_ mitered finger joint sounds really interesting! Thanks guys. This is one of the 651 reasons that this forum is so cool! Otis Guillebeau from Auburn, Georgia


----------



## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

Those hinges shown looked like metal hinges to me. When they made those and similar boxes they didn't mess around with fancy hinges. They were meant to be expendable, so they weren't going to put a lot of time and effort into them. I've got a modern NATO training ammo box, rough wood, and it's knocked together about as cheaply as it gets, including the least expensive hinges they could find - I could make hinges as good, or better, than those, same with the hasp.


----------



## DHB (Dec 30, 2012)

Hi All, me again.
I've taken a few photos of the box in question, hope they are clear enough to see the way the joints have been made.
My view is that the joints have been made angled (all angles are about 15 degrees), such that when the boxes, full of ammo, are dragged by the rope handles (missing on the box I've got) the ends will not be pulled off, which would be the case with plane box joints.
The lid is missing, but from the look of it, was simply a flat piece of wook, angled on one side to lock under the lid and is secured by the clasp when rotated into position.
I've nearly finished a sketch of what I think is needed as a jig, any ideas how to attach? Do I scan the sketch and attach to a post? Does this work?


----------



## OPG3 (Jan 9, 2011)

Dave, now we see what you were speaking about and it makes more sense! It's that "picture is worth a thousand words" thing. I've gotta say, though; from a structural standpoint - that is a very prone-to-failure joint. But you already knew that, and are attempting to build it for nostalgic reasons and all of us can appreciate that. I am now in the process of developing some dovetail and box joint fixtures -just for my own curiosity. I currently have several store-bought varieties but for a variety of reasons see fault (at least in my own mind) with each of them...and developing and improving products is what I do for a living, so I cannot "resist" attempting something odd and unusual. It may go nowhere or maybe I can come-up with something smart. Only time will tell.
During my research (and I am sorry that I don't remember the web address) I saw a video of how wooden beehives are made - they have "their own method" of creating box joints and all fingers of one board's end are cut simultaneously in this big, loud gizmo that appeared to me to be a huge drive shaft with a "gang" of (spaced apart) dado blades.
I've never seen the process in person and some other members may have better knowledge of the procedure. I'm thinking that a similar system might be able to be done on a "Z" axis rotation of 15 deg. - for mass production, of course.
Back to the joint: If you look-back at your 2nd photo and observe the close-up view, it is readily apparent that there are 6- stress fractures in the two intersecting sides. This could have been a result of twisting, abuse or even the box being made with "green" lumber, or just good-old fashioned wear & tear. The joint appears to feature the inherent strengths of the box joint - handicapped with the biggest weakness of the dovetail joint. That weakness being that a broken wood fiber has very little tensile strength or resistance to torsion and the "tails" of a dovetail joint feature broken wood fiber at all points exceeding the narrowest dimension of said "tail". In a dovetail joint the "pins" do not include broken wood fibers, but rather all wood fibers are continuous. The "fingers" of a "square finger joint" do not include interrupted wood fibers and thus less "weak links in the chain". The additional strength imparted by maximized glue area is not a factor _in this old and weather-exposed joint!_
Unfortunately, the joint you're hoping to reproduce has broken wood fibers in every finger and is therefore a weak joint. A "pinned finger joint" would have been a stronger choice, but I cannot say their choice wasn't the best with all conditions considered.
I hope this helps and quite likely other members will chime-in with firsthand knowledge of the beehive box joints and their construction.
Otis Guillebeau from Auburn, Georgia


----------



## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

I agree with Otis, do you really need a complex joint like that? A standard box joint would be much easier and stronger. You could angle them by pushing them over a router bit with the boards at an angle and that would be fairly simple but it still wouldn't be quite as strong.

Otis I was thinking of making a box joint machine as you described but the only blades that are commonly available here are 5/8 hole. A 5/8 arbor would be too flimsy to gang blades on. Euro sized 30mm hole blades are usually expensive. Have you ever come across any small diameter/ large bore blades?


----------



## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

One side of the joint cant be done easily with a typical keyed box joint jig at an angle with either the tablesaw or router table. I think the second side would be easiest on the table saw(tilt the dado stack(compound angle)). Tilting router lift would work also. Or the bandsaw is up to the task as well!

Just a few ideas! It is actually quite doable. Just made a proof of concept joint with the miter gage/router table for one side and the bandsaw for the other!


----------



## OPG3 (Jan 9, 2011)

*Chuck*, I never actually physically observed the saw, just a video. Beehive-making videos were where I observed it.

*Duane*, I'm kinda like you in that it is "doable", but why? Nostalgia may be the only reason. It wouldn't take rocket science to make a jig with parallel grooves that will over-mount the workpiece at the desired angle, but why?

I'm no wood-work historian, but that joint was a "first" for me. Take care guys! Happy New Year!

Oh, yeah; one other thing - most blades for saws like I use take a 5/8" diameter arbor - it is pretty much a standard. I had an (1920 YATES) old pattern-making saw that took a 1.125" dia hole (an 18" diameter blade and 7 horsepower 220/3 phase motor), but it was so much trouble to find that I finally just contracted a blade vendor to enlarge the originally smaller hole. After getting the saw up and running, OSHA inspectors refused to let me and my guys use it - so I donated the machine to an antique machinery museum.


----------



## cutter79 (Oct 21, 2012)

I very much doubt that the router can be used to produce any of the two sides Obviously this was made long before routers were invented and completed with a hand saw (IMHO) I would not like to attempt making it on the table saw or the table router
Sam


----------



## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

OPG3 said:


> *Chuck*,
> *Duane*, I'm kinda like you in that it is "doable", but why?
> .


Can't argue with you there, Otis. Other than decorative maybe I can see no advantage to the joint, really.



> I very much doubt that the router can be used to produce any of the two sides Obviously this was made long before routers were invented and completed with a hand saw (IMHO) I would not like to attempt making it on the table saw or the table router
> Sam


Sam, it really is not as difficult as it looks. One side is quite easy on the router table. The other would take a tilting router, that's all. It is very easy to do on the table saw. One side, just a normal box joint type jig attached to a miter gage at an angle, the other needs the arbor tilted as well. But that's all it is, just a few compound cuts


----------



## cutter79 (Oct 21, 2012)

Dmeadows said:


> Can't argue with you there, Otis. Other than decorative maybe I can see no advantage to the joint, really.
> 
> 
> 
> Sam, it really is not as difficult as it looks. One side is quite easy on the router table. The other would take a tilting router, that's all. It is very easy to do on the table saw. One side, just a normal box joint type jig attached to a miter gage at an angle, the other needs the arbor tilted as well. But that's all it is, just a few compound cuts


Interesting I would like to see how it could be achieved with all the different acute angles that require to be produced. There does seem to be more hand saw and chisel rather than table saw.
Sam


----------



## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

cutter79 said:


> Interesting I would like to see how it could be achieved with all the different acute angles that require to be produced. There does seem to be more hand saw and chisel rather than table saw.
> Sam


Sam, I'll post some pictures tomorrow, can't get to it today.


----------



## cutter79 (Oct 21, 2012)

Dmeadows said:


> Sam, I'll post some pictures tomorrow, can't get to it today.


Thanks I appreciate the effort and I would be very interested in the results
Sam


----------



## JCJCJC (May 15, 2012)

This question had me thinking all night last night! I cannot think of a way to do those joints with a router or dado cutter, because - the 'floor' of the cut isn't going to be parallel with the sides of the cut, it's parallel with the end of the plank. I know you said you don't have a bandsaw, but the only way I can think of to make a substantial inroad into the joint-making with a machine involves a bandsaw, and you'd still probably have to hand-chisel the waste out - or have a second bandsaw with a very thin blade. I have a loose idea in my head of a bandsaw jig to make the repetitive cuts with the grain to form the joints, but the clear-out would have to be hand-chiselled I think.


Essentially I would tilt the bandsaw table to 15 degrees, and make a 2-way sliding table jig with a 15 degree fence to offer the plank end to the blade at 15 degrees off square in both planes. A simple stop would make even depths of cuts, and a peg with dowels and holes at intervals would space the cuts. It might be do-able by hand and eye, keeping left/right of the pencil line on the boards to make the joint tight. 

It's a baffling joint, as has been well analysed already - I don't see the point of it. It would be interesting to research the army's papers if they are in the public domain to see why the original spec was for this joint.


----------



## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi

That's a neat joint,almost a box dovetail locking joint..
Back when that put it in place I think they did it with a table saw and they didn't have a big router...looks like the saw had a gang of blades and the miter was set at 15 deg.

I like the way they put the bottom board in place and the top with 2 rabbits and just one nail to hold it place (center part of the top ) and with quick blow of the gun butt would open the box..that would let the center pull right out..


==


----------



## cutter79 (Oct 21, 2012)

bobj3
Everytime I look for the solution presented, I have to go back at the photographs submitted to see if there is at least one right angle corner on any of the processes made and I still cannot find one therefore I still say that the only way it can be achieved is with a hand saw/maybe band saw????.(but I have been wrong before)
Sam


----------



## JCJCJC (May 15, 2012)

Here is how I think it could be done - just a mock-up.

1) Bandsaw table tilted at 15 deg.

2) Fence at 15 deg. to blade line.

3) cut-stop fence perp to 2)

4) laths to space the cuts between fence and workpiece.

I appreciate that the OP doesn't have a bandsaw (yet) so i'm just hopefully making my contribution to the broader debate.

BobJ3 - great explanation for the joint - a deliberate knock-down joint.


----------



## cutter79 (Oct 21, 2012)

John
I think you are on the right track to complete the process as I am still convinced that it is not possible to be achieved with the saw table with a 'gang' of blades as there is no right angle at the base of any cut
Sam


----------



## cutter79 (Oct 21, 2012)

John
I should have added a chisel will also be required
Sam


----------



## JCJCJC (May 15, 2012)

Thanks Sam. I probably won't make the joint simply because I have no need to, but I agree totally with your analysis - a circular sawblade, dado cutter or router cutter will have difficulty with the bottom of the sockets. I doubt the US Army specified something that required a very specialised construction technique, so the process has to have been simple and easily acheived on a production basis. A line of a few bandsaws could do it step-by-step easily enough I think and bandsaws were more commonplace than routers during the war years.
I once read about De Walt having a 3/4-mile line of Radial Arm saws on a house construction site in New York just after the war - cutting ganged components they were able to knock out a timber-frame house at a rate equivalent to one house every twenty minutes, each saw making one precise cut. That was the mentality of those times, so if you try to think how the Army's supplier would have approached this contract you arrive at a line of bandsaws I think, probably followed by a line of joiners with chisels and mallets clearing out the cuts.


----------



## DHB (Dec 30, 2012)

Otis

Apologies for not getting back to you sooner, but I've been away for a few days. Thanks for your repsonse, and the insights you gave into the merits of the joints and their relative 'weaknesses'. 
However, as you commented, the reason I'm attempting to reproduce the boxes is due to the band of Light Horse enthusiasts wishes. They simply want to have 'props' that resemble the equipment used at that time.
Notwithstanding your comments in relation to the natural fibres being cut, I'm still of the view that this joint would have worked well in this particular application. The compound joing would provide some 'keying' effect when the boxes were being dragged along full of ammo, whereas a plain box joint would be subjected to stresses normal to the joint (when the box was pulled longitudinally) and therefore, only the glue in the joint would be resisting the load.
I think the joints could be cut using dado cutters anged over at + and - 15 degrees and the sides and ends fed into the cutters using a fence angled at 15 degrees. 
However, to cut out the exact shape at the bottom of the 'female' part of the joint, a set of trapezoidal dado cutters would be required, if there is such a thing.


----------



## japa62 (May 9, 2012)

You got me interested now with the 'Light Horse' bit. Would be interesting to see how they made them in bulk originally but my only suggestion would be a 5 Axis CNC Router. Expensive but there might be a local business that has a owner who's ancestor was a Light Horseman.


----------



## DHB (Dec 30, 2012)

Hi James

I don't think the local group of Light Horse enthusiasts need more that a couple of these boxes, so CNC is not really an option for them, also they don't have the funds.
I've made a jig which I can use on my Triton saw bench, but it's a bit awkward to use and relies on lining up the cuts by eye, having marked out the joints by measurement. The other problem is that due to the shape of the joints, each 'female' joint has to be finished off by hand or band saw, as the shape is not a normal rectangle.
However, I am looking to make another jig that will allow me to use the router, with an indexing block, but it's still in the process of being designed before I commit to buying the materials.


----------



## Gaffboat (Mar 11, 2012)

This has been a fascinating discussion. With all of our modern technology and the wealth of experience on this forum, we still can't figure out how the heck they did those boxes on what must have been a mass production setup. We know they probably produced those boxes in the thousands but we're still stumped. I'd love to see the actual machine(s) that did it. :laugh:


----------



## denniswoody (Dec 11, 2011)

It seems to me the joint is designed to resist vertical stress. The piece on the end has a hole so maybe there was a rope handle thru it and they were picked up and carried. Given this was a factory making these I think it likely there was a custom cutting blade involved in the manufacture. If so it's pretty easy to visualize how they could be made.


----------



## OPG3 (Jan 9, 2011)

Okay Dave - there was no need for a quick reply. This subject intrigues me more than most. I am in the process of designing some "new method" dovetail and finger joint jigs - so I am going to model this on my computer (using AutoCAD). I can use AutoCAD to determine a logistical approach - be it power tool or manual. I think I can guess what it will be, but to prevent me making myself look totally stupid; I will first verify my theory.
Hang in there Dave - I'll get to this ASAP.


----------



## OPG3 (Jan 9, 2011)

*Here is your answer...*

OKAY - FELLOW MEMBERS, here is the answer! I modeled this on my computer and determined what would be necessary and the perfect answer is here and was brought to us by....John from Ireland (JCJCJC) nailed it. I cannot word it any better than he has already done. Tilted, a dado blade will not do this. A router cannot be used, either. Parallel cuts with the keys hand-cut is the only way I can come-up with - like John. I had an idea of a jig that may be able to be used - but quite frankly, when the 15 degree angle gets introduced - it throws everything else out.



> This question had me thinking all night last night! I cannot think of a way to do those joints with a router or dado cutter, because - the 'floor' of the cut isn't going to be parallel with the sides of the cut, it's parallel with the end of the plank. I know you said you don't have a bandsaw, but the only way I can think of to make a substantial inroad into the joint-making with a machine involves a bandsaw, and you'd still probably have to hand-chisel the waste out - or have a second bandsaw with a very thin blade. I have a loose idea in my head of a bandsaw jig to make the repetitive cuts with the grain to form the joints, but the clear-out would have to be hand-chiselled I think.
> 
> 
> Essentially I would tilt the bandsaw table to 15 degrees, and make a 2-way sliding table jig with a 15 degree fence to offer the plank end to the blade at 15 degrees off square in both planes. A simple stop would make even depths of cuts, and a peg with dowels and holes at intervals would space the cuts. It might be do-able by hand and eye, keeping left/right of the pencil line on the boards to make the joint tight.
> ...


Here's a sketch of the jig I had imagined - it is simply the same homemade part x 2, rotated as indicated; but it cannot handle the 15 degree angles either.
Otis Guillebeau from Auburn, Georgia


----------



## Gaffboat (Mar 11, 2012)

Okay, I think I've got the most pragmatic answer. Tell them you have done more research and then show them THIS photo. A simple box joint with no issues. The box in the other photos must have become warped after being submerged in the mud in the trenches. :lol:


----------



## Mdawson (Mar 25, 2012)

Hi All

There have been some references to these boxes being mass produced and by inference, machine produced.

Given that the Australian Light Horse were operating in the Boer War and the First World War, I would be inclined to think these boxes would have been produced prior to 1914 on a production line using hand tools.

There are a few youtube videos showing experienced people cutting a 3 or 4 pin dovetail joint in less than 4 minutes, I think someone doing this all day everyday and with the shortcuts they would have developed, would be able to knock off the four joints for an ammo box in under 30 minutes especially as they wouldn't have been trying to produce cabinet grade joints. In a 12 hour day that's 24 boxes, 4 men could probably manage 100 a day or better. Wouldn't take long to produce a few thousand.

The 'Colonial Ammunition Coy' stenciled on the side is interesting, appears to be an Auckland based company some buildings of which still exist, it would be interesting if the Light Horse guys know of any history over there, they might be able to pin down the era when the box may have been produced.

Mark


----------



## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

OPG3 said:


> OKAY - FELLOW MEMBERS, here is the answer! I modeled this on my computer and determined what would be necessary and the perfect answer is here and was brought to us by....John from Ireland (JCJCJC) nailed it. I cannot word it any better than he has already done. Tilted, a dado blade will not do this. A router cannot be used, either. Parallel cuts with the keys hand-cut is the only way I can come-up with - like John. I had an idea of a jig that may be able to be used - but quite frankly, when the 15 degree angle gets introduced - it throws everything else out.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Otis-
When we had talked about this yesterday, I hadn't seen "*his*" photo of the joint. I somehow missed it and hadn't seen it until late last night... You were right, that is an interesting joint. An interesting tooling challenge.

Manufacturing processes for mass produced around then... Die cut or stacked moulding cutter. They were cut all at once. Die cut is self explanatory. The dies would be a challenge and the wood would have to be prep'ed for the process. I can see were using that process would create a lot of dunage.

As with a stacked moulding cutter knives, they could be cut to that shape, the piece turned around and over to get the cut on the other side... or the stack turned over and the cut rotation/direction reversed.

This doesn't directly help the OP in recreating it, but comes up with a partial answer. A knife set can be made to create a part of the joint to get what he described as a "trapazoidal dado." Once you have a cutter head for $50-$100, then knife sets can be had for around $15-$20. Custom profiles can be ground for just a bit more. Then you need to find or make a moulding cutter insert for your saw. (Just like you would for a dado.)

Then a mod'ed box joint jig (with that profile's key and cutout) could be made to index the cuts.
*** A note on these moulding cutters... It takes some time to learn to use them effectively and safely. Some people rush into this and it scares the cr#* out of them... and they give up/quit before they get hurt. (Hopefully before.) Approach it carefully, smartly and safely. It is like working with a shaper turned on it's side. But I think there is more of a risk of kick-back on these than on a shaper. Feather boards, fences, guides, jigs, push blocks, push sticks, etc. Safety, safety, safety. You can find many moulding heads and cutters on Ebay that were either never used... or used only once or twice.

Or to reproduce the die cut avenue- would be cut the sides of the joint with a band saw, scroll saw, back saw... with a sacrificial board clamped as the limit of the cuts... then cut out the waste with a scroll saw or chisel.

The other side of the joint, the OP and others have many ways to do it with many tools.

Joint strength is okay in being stacked for transport, with the crate easily broken apart if hit. Yes, an interesting joint.

EDIT-- References: The Woodworking moulding machine was invented and came about in 1848. The cutting of dovetails on them came about in the 1860's. Irregular or spindle shapers- A patent for shaping irregular forms in wood by means of a cutter block fixed on a spindle revolving vertically was invented by Mr. Andrew S. Gear, of Jamesville, Ohio, in 1853. Die cutting also started in the mid 1800's.


----------



## OPG3 (Jan 9, 2011)

Oliver, now *YOU* have a lot of people scratching their heads! I think the warpage that you referred to was done via computer manipulation or a somehow "photo shop trick" - because your photo is of the EXACT SAME BOX!
An old damaged box such as this with damage and cracking - even the chip on the lower right corner key - this coupled with other [unique] features would yield something as unique as a fingerprint! I think the word I was looking for is: distortion. Both photos are even sitting (posed on a concrete masonry unit) in the exact same position / location.


----------



## Gaffboat (Mar 11, 2012)

OPG3 said:


> Oliver, now *YOU* have a lot of people scratching their heads! I think the warpage that you referred to was done via computer manipulation or a somehow "photo shop trick" - because your photo is of the EXACT SAME BOX!
> An old damaged box such as this with damage and cracking - even the chip on the lower right corner key - this coupled with other [unique] features would yield something as unique as a fingerprint! I think the word I was looking for is: distortion. Both photos are even sitting (posed on a concrete masonry unit) in the exact same position / location.


Actually Otis, I think the word you are looking for is Fake, as in "Oliver, you faked that photo!" Ummm, I prefer the words "technically augmented" or like the magazines say, "digitally enhanced." Oh what the hell ... yes my image was faked from the original. Photoshop is too much fun and this image and discussion was to hard to resist. Guilty as charged. We regret the interruption and now return you to your normally scheduled discussion. :jester:


----------



## JCJCJC (May 15, 2012)

OPG3 said:


> OKAY - FELLOW MEMBERS, here is the answer! I modeled this on my computer and determined what would be necessary and the perfect answer is here and was brought to us by....John from Ireland (JCJCJC) nailed it. I cannot word it any better than he has already done. Tilted, a dado blade will not do this. A router cannot be used, either. Parallel cuts with the keys hand-cut is the only way I can come-up with - like John. I had an idea of a jig that may be able to be used - but quite frankly, when the 15 degree angle gets introduced - it throws everything else out.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks Otis. I feel challenged now to build it!!


----------



## JCJCJC (May 15, 2012)

DHB said:


> ... The compound joing would provide some 'keying' effect when the boxes were being dragged along full of ammo, whereas a plain box joint would be subjected to stresses normal to the joint (when the box was pulled longitudinally) and therefore, only the glue in the joint would be resisting the load.


What is interesting when you study the original picture closely is to note that the 15 degree fingers go opposite ways at each end of the end-piece of the box. This actually prevents the end from being pulled off the box by the rope, because a sort of twisting motion would be required which would be stopped by the nailed-on top and bottom. I don't have the proper engineering analytical skills, or indeed vocabulary, to describe this perfectly, I suspect you may do....


----------



## DHB (Dec 30, 2012)

All

I managed to cut a reasonable accurate joint yesterday on my Triton saw bench. I have the blade angled at 15 degrees, and the work piece secured onto a sliding (homemade) fence which is also anged at 15 degrees to the blade. 
I carefully marked out the joint on each workpiece, and then positoned the workpiece by eye against a previously cut slot in the fence.
The bottom of the joint had to be cleaned out ( I used a coping saw as I don't have a band saw yet).
Like plain box joints, the depth of cut is important, but in the case of this angled joint, and unlike the plain joint, cutting too deep can't be rectified by sanding back the protruding 'fingers'.

I've also spoken to my Light Horse mate, and he reckons that 'millions' of these boxes would have been made, so thought that some mechanised manufacture must have been used. He's going to get me some more info from his group. Watch this space.


----------



## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

I have looked at a lot of pictures of ammo boxes, from modern, to way back, and never saw a one with joints like that. I'm thinking it's a one off, probably British, or associated with British in some way. Speaking of which, were I wanting to make an authentic wooden ammo box, this is the one I would go for. Ammunition Box - Small-Arm


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Will this help????
only cut fingers instead...

http://www.leighjigs.com/data/leighadt-2.pdf


----------



## DHB (Dec 30, 2012)

Thanks for that Theo, looks very similar, but not identical. 
The lid on the one I'm trying to make has an angled top (on one side) the ones in the photos look to be rectangular. 
Can't quite make out the detail at the corners, but one is definitely pinned or screwed, the other I'm not sure. 
Getting closer though to perhaps finding some plans!


----------



## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Okay then... 
- 2 pieces of old scrap, well weathered and seasoned pine, with wild grain and knots. 
- 2 minutes to lay it out freehand.
- less than 5 minutes to knock it out freehand.

No jigs. No guides. No support. No fitting done on it... Just wanted to try it out. Photo attached.


----------



## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

MAFoElffen said:


> Okay then...
> - 2 pieces of old scrap, well weathered and seasoned pine, with wild grain and knots.
> - 2 minutes to lay it out freehand.
> - less than 5 minutes to knock it out freehand.
> ...


Mike you have the same pattern I did, Angle on on side of joint but not the mating side! That much I can do on the router table. If you've read the entire thread, it was a photoshoped hoax! Bad enough trying to solve legit problems, but.... nuff said.


----------



## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Dmeadows said:


> Mike you have the same pattern I did, Angle on on side of joint but not the mating side! That much I can do on the router table. If you've read the entire thread, it was a photoshoped hoax! Bad enough trying to solve legit problems, but.... nuff said.


I thought the hoax was when they straightened the fingers out(?)

I could have "also" had the sides at an angle if I laid it out that way. I just hadn't seen that part of it. It would have taken just the same amount of time to cut those at an angle as it was to cut it straight.

Laid out by eye. Lines drawn freehand. Handcut freehand with a backsaw. Finger waste removed with a chisel and mallet.


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

MAFoElffen said:


> Okay then...
> - 2 pieces of old scrap, well weathered and seasoned pine, with wild grain and knots.
> - 2 minutes to lay it out freehand.
> - less than 5 minutes to knock it out freehand.
> ...


that kind of compound joint...

MAN!!!!
I'm gonna have to take an "Improve your comprehension Skills" class....


----------



## DHB (Dec 30, 2012)

Thanks Stick, just printed the document out, it's getting late here, so I'll have a look at it in the morning. 
I have successfully cut and completed the joints using a 'homemade' jig, but it takes a long time and it's easy to make a mistake aligning mating parts for cutting.


----------



## DHB (Dec 30, 2012)

Here's a couple of joints I made on my homemade jig yesterday. I didn't spend too much ytime cleaning our the bottom of the joints as you can see. 
However, whilst this jig will produce reasonable joints, I am using two pegs to index the workpiece after each cut, one for the fingers and one for the valleys. I've also found that having machined one workpiece, marking out and machining the mating part needs very careful attention and it is easy to make a mistake at this point (there's a few scrapped pieces in my bin).
There has be be a better more foolproof way, especially given that so many of these boxes would have been produced.


----------



## JCJCJC (May 15, 2012)

DHB said:


> Here's a couple of joints I made on my homemade jig yesterday. I didn't spend too much ytime cleaning our the bottom of the joints as you can see.
> However, whilst this jig will produce reasonable joints, I am using two pegs to index the workpiece after each cut, one for the fingers and one for the valleys. I've also found that having machined one workpiece, marking out and machining the mating part needs very careful attention and it is easy to make a mistake at this point (there's a few scrapped pieces in my bin).
> There has be be a better more foolproof way, especially given that so many of these boxes would have been produced.



You're close. Close enough for government work, I'd say!
Persevere, because if you don't get it 100% right very soon I'm going to have to try, and Goddammit I swept out my workshop last week and I don't want to mess it all up again ;-)

I still think the cuts with the grain are done with a bandsaw. After set-out, I'd be inclined to simply cut on the waste side of the line at all times, that should yield an acceptable fit, once the chiselling is done. Dammit, I'm going to have to try this ;-)


----------



## OPG3 (Jan 9, 2011)

Dave, I am impressed with what you have done here! It looks as if you "have got the tiger by the tail". John, many of us will be very interested in what your work develops.
This has been a very interesting thread.


----------



## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

+1 with Otis. I'd also be interested in seeing the jig you came up with.


----------



## cutter79 (Oct 21, 2012)

Nothing has been mentioned re the angle of each cut. Would 5 degrees be sufficient. This gives something to work with when designing some sort of jig
Sam


----------



## DHB (Dec 30, 2012)

cutter79 said:


> John
> I think you are on the right track to complete the process as I am still convinced that it is not possible to be achieved with the saw table with a 'gang' of blades as there is no right angle at the base of any cut
> Sam


Whilst I can now make the joints on my saw bench, I think you know my thoughts about this solution. 
I've attached a sketch which may offer a better solution, if the saw blades can be set up as I've drawn them. 
I have no experience with these blade sets, so are looking for comments...


----------



## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

DHB said:


> Whilst I can now make the joints on my saw bench, I think you know my thoughts about this solution.
> I've attached a sketch which may offer a better solution, if the saw blades can be set up as I've drawn them.
> I have no experience with these blade sets, so are looking for comments...


Presently, I can recreate it on the table saw to a point. I still have to clean out between the fingers... as I was using flat bottoms blades. 15 degree bevel angle and 15 degree crosscut fence angle.

Looked at your sketch. Dado shaped that way? Well... Not out of the box. A Frued, with it's over sized teeth, it has a beveled tooth toward the inside and an alternating flat tooth. If they all were ground to a bevel, then you have one blade, slightly less than 1/4". But if you tried to just regrind the next blade to continue along that bevel, you're not going to have much of a tooth left. It's teeth is deep, for many resharpings, but not much in height.

That would have to be done at a saw sharpening shop. Most reputable sharpening shops also braze on replacement teeth... So, logically, they could create that profile across several blades. 

This may not be cost effective. Even if you started out on blades you already owned- replacing teeth is usually $4 each; 12-24 tooth blade sharpened, $19.50; Blades ground behind tooth (to reduce the diameter for that taper), $2; Opening gullets (for the reducing the diameter of the blades), $7. Say it was only a 12 tooth blade- $76.50 for each blade like that. 24 tooth blade- $124 each blade. Remember, that is without the original cost of the blade. They do give you a break for sharpening a dado set, which would be multiple blades... But maybe a shop would make a custom blade set for less. They usually don't get much calls for "hey, I have this idea" and would take it on as a challenge... That has worked for me in the past with some things.

In my earlier post, I suggested an alternate method and tooling- a moulding head cutter. It mounts on a table saw just like a dado. They have a set of 3 blades that attach to the head like teeth. Looks like a shaper cutter. The heads usually go from $45 to $100. The cutter blade sets usually go for $17 to $20. You can buy a blank blade set that a sharpening shop can grind any profile you want... such as "this one." Or you can order a custom ground knife set for about $17 to $30, depending on the blank's materials. Yes, it would be one set for each width you need, but, then you have it... and have the head available for other profile cutter blade sets.


----------



## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

There you go, Mike! I think you just nailed it. A set of custom knives in a molding head and you're there! Then all that is needed is a relatively normal box joint jig with a spacer key, attached to a miter gauge. That should work:yes4:


----------



## cutter79 (Oct 21, 2012)

cutter79 said:


> bobj3
> Everytime I look for the solution presented, I have to go back at the photographs submitted to see if there is at least one right angle corner on any of the processes made and I still cannot find one therefore I still say that the only way it can be achieved is with a hand saw/maybe band saw????.(but I have been wrong before)
> Sam


I have been giving the project some more research and I have to admit I was wrong.

The router can be used (IMHO) I had a go yesterday and produced one side and thought I would have to readjust the jig to produce the second side. Again I was wrong Sitting at my com puter ready to make the necessary drawings to complete side 2 I pu the two sections together to form the perfect joint. I still have to work on the setting procedure to line up the edges. 

In another post I also asked what angle was used I should have read the first post more clearly as it stated 15degree.
My next question is Is it necessary to go as much as 15degrees?
Followed on with a second question Would 5 degrees be sufficient?
Considering ordinary dovetails can be produced with smaller angles. 

No matter what the angle, there should be no movement once it is assembled. Once the base and top are added there is no way the joint can be pulled appart. It's the most interesting challenge I have ever taken on regarding working with wood


I made my cuts at 5 degrees

Photo to follow
Sam


----------



## DHB (Dec 30, 2012)

Gday Cutter79

I just roughly measured the angle on the ammo box I've got, but it's more than 5 degrees. I've been asked to make the boxes as close to the originals as possible, so will measure the angle more accurately, now that I know I can machine the joints.
I've got an idea for a router jig, but it still won't clean out the bottom of the joint. A special cutter is needed as per my previous message. Looking forward to see your info.


----------



## cutter79 (Oct 21, 2012)

Enclosed pics Taken yesterday
Sam


----------



## DHB (Dec 30, 2012)

cutter79 said:


> Enclosed pics Taken yesterday
> Sam


Hey they look good! How did you get the bottom of the joints so neat? Can you tell me how you went about machining the joints?
Just for the record, I measured the joints I'm recreating, they are in fact 15 degrees.
Making the joints is pretty straight forward once you have a jig that cuts at 15degrees and presents the workpiece at 15 degrees. However, getting the sides and ends of the box to line up needs a bit of care. I noticed that your mating workpieces are offset.


----------



## cutter79 (Oct 21, 2012)

Another pic to see how they would join up.

Completed with the router

Looking closely at the bottom of the cut there is visible a small space. This space would have been greater if the angle had been 15 degrees. I was considering chiselling the shape but decided against it as the type of project did not warrant spending time with such fine adjustment. After all the boxes were to be dragged through all sorts of terrain and no doubt the spaces would be filled up with all sorts of material. Also when the boxes were emptied they possible were left to rot where they were standing. 

The reason for the 5 Degrees was advice given from a specialist with the router and saying the router could be used to produce the joint. My first impression was it was not possible but I am pleased to admit I was wrong as the pics I have posted so far show the joint completed with the router. (two pieces) 

My next question, was it posible to make a four sided box? The answer is simply yes


----------



## DHB (Dec 30, 2012)

MAFoElffen said:


> +1 with Otis. I'd also be interested in seeing the jig you came up with.


Mike/Otis

This is the simple jig I made up. It's really a sledge which travels up my Triton Workbench into a blade angled at 15 degrees. Workpiece and stops are clamped to the vertical face. Using a bit of school trigonometry, I worked out what size the two indexing spacers should be (also need to know the blade thickness for these calcs).
Works pretty well, but would be improved if used on a better saw table incorporating more positive table travel. A small jigsaw cutter would also ensure that the bottom of the cuts were cleaned out.


----------



## cutter79 (Oct 21, 2012)

cutter79 said:


> Another pic to see how they would join up.
> 
> Completed with the router
> 
> ...


Here is the full box sides
Sam


----------



## OPG3 (Jan 9, 2011)

You go Sam! Great work.... I truly admire your patience, perseverance and energy to task yourself to accomplish a truly interesting joinery challenge!

Dave, I must say this has to me been one of the best threads that I can remember participating in! Thanks so much to you and everyone else that has been involved.

*Things like this, to me; UNDERSCORE the value of membership to this fantastic forum!*


----------



## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

These cuts could be made with a Router Workshop box joint jig. The push block is where the angles are adjusted.


----------



## richtink (Dec 5, 2012)

Here is a link to a tutorial.

Jim Harvey's angled box joints


----------



## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Router Workshop: Series 1200

1213 - Angle Tray:

This intriguing tray has angled sides, box joints and heart handles. These handy trays make bowls for fruit or snacks, hold mittens or hats, act as a letter holder, picture storage or mail bin. Make several in different sizes. The beveled bottom is glued and wedge-fit inside the tray. The top edge of the tray is also beveled. For tips on compound angles, box joints, heart patterns and beveled sides watch Bob and Rick in episode #1213 of the Router Workshop TV program.

Router Workshop: Series 1200

Router Workshop: Episode Guide

===


----------



## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

Mike said:


> These cuts could be made with a Router Workshop box joint jig. The push block is where the angles are adjusted.


To Bob, Mike, and Richard.... not quite the same thing. Mike, I'd like to see pictures of that!


----------



## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Dmeadows said:


> To Bob, Mike, and Richard.... not quite the same thing. Mike, I'd like to see pictures of that!


+1 with Doug.

Pictured cut with router was 5 degrees bevel and 5 degrees miter. Notice the jagged joint line of the fingers. Reproduction is 15 degrees bevel and 15 degrees miter, with a straight line along the joint where the finger tips and seats meet (a mitered finger end). With a router bit, the more the bevel and miter, the more that joint line deformity is going to be pronounced and show. The problem of using a flat bottomed cutting edge.








To do this on an Oak Park jig... 15 degree wedge under the jig to get the bevel. Custom push block, with a miter slot 15 degrees in relation to the push block face. Needs that to present the push block's face at a 15 degree miter. You could also get the bevel by a 15 degree wedge at the front of the fence, with the work set on the wedge and the jig mounted flat... Indexing on it would have to be "creative."

But that would still not be as is it needs to be reproduced, unless you finish off the bottoms of the seat with a chisel to get that straight joint line.








That manual manipulation is depicted here:
Compound Angle Box Joints - a set on Flickr

Just saying... An interesting joint.


----------



## DHB (Dec 30, 2012)

OPG3 said:


> You go Sam! Great work.... I truly admire your patience, perseverance and energy to task yourself to accomplish a truly interesting joinery challenge!
> 
> Dave, I must say this has to me been one of the best threads that I can remember participating in! Thanks so much to you and everyone else that has been involved.
> 
> *Things like this, to me; UNDERSCORE the value of membership to this fantastic forum!*


It's certainly keep me interested for the last couple of weeks. I've just finished my final prototype, with the scrap wood I had in my garage, and now that I know I can make the joints reasonalbly successfully on my homemade rig, I'm off to buy the timber! Here's the latest pics


----------



## JCJCJC (May 15, 2012)

*Bandsaw rules...*

OK, I've had a quick go at this, with 15-degree angles. I'm still convinced a bandsaw (or two) is the easiest way to do this on a production basis without custom tooling. Somehow, my two pieces ended up mis-aligned - I could have run them through the tablesaw before taking the photograph but I'm too honest! :sarcastic: Anyway, I think the joints are what the OP was after. The fuzzy pic shows the bandsaw set-up - as I thought, table tilted to 15 degrees, and a fence to stop the cuts, also at 15 degrees. A square corner on a piece of scrap plywood lined up the workpiece to the blade reasonably well enough for this purpose - if I were more serious, I'd make something better that didn't need a third hand to hold it. Hand-chiselling took out the waste, but it's far easier if you have a second bandsaw to make plumb cuts most of the way into the waste.
The setting-out needs to be done on both sides so that you'll see where to put the chisel -all sides in fact. I made the compound angle cuts most of the way with the bandsaw, and took them to the line with a tenon saw / backsaw.
In your set-out, allow for the mis-alignment that caught me.

Is this it, at last?


JC


----------



## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

FYI- PhilP and I talked about what was probably used to mass produce this joint. He quickly mentioned the "Robinson Dovetail Cutting Machine", circa 1867. Said that the blades could be set to cut those compound angle finger joints. Said that a lot of these were sold to and used in Australia. They were used for production/manufacturing.

I later found this post of his:
When were machine cut dovetails first used?


----------



## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Hi Mike

Yep, that's the machine! I can't see ammo boxes, which are a "use once and throw-away" product being made by any means which was labour intensive and the volumes they were (and are) produced in means that speed of production is probably an imperative. Modern ammo boxes are often made using multiple stacked slotting saws - obviously modern glues are sufficiently durable that the mechanical strength of the joint is less critical nowadays. Before the days of cardboard cartons and plastic crates (the 1970s) quite a few woodworking machinery firms had designs for machines to manufacture box components, print or emboss them and even to nail them together - automatically. They were big business, albeit low cost.

As to Robinson's they were a very well established firm in Australia from the 1880s onwards, mainly because of their large flour milling division, but they also were active in the Australian woodworking machinery market right up to the demise of the firm in the early to mid 1980s. Even later on they found the time to design and build a semi-automatic box dovetailer which was listed up until the 1960s

Regards

Phil


----------



## Gaffboat (Mar 11, 2012)

MAFoElffen said:


> FYI- PhilP and I talked about what was probably used to mass produce this joint. He quickly mentioned the "Robinson Dovetail Cutting Machine", circa 1867. Said that the blades could be set to cut those compound angle finger joints. Said that a lot of these were sold to and used in Australia. They were used for production/manufacturing.
> 
> I later found this post of his:
> When were machine cut dovetails first used?


Wow! Great detective work Mike. Having been around a lot of wooden ammo boxes in the field artillery I knew they would have been made by machine to handle the volume needed. Really interesting to see the machine that could produce this unusual box joint. Amazing what this forum can accomplish.


----------



## DHB (Dec 30, 2012)

JCJCJC said:


> OK, I've had a quick go at this, with 15-degree angles. I'm still convinced a bandsaw (or two) is the easiest way to do this on a production basis without custom tooling. Somehow, my two pieces ended up mis-aligned - I could have run them through the tablesaw before taking the photograph but I'm too honest! :sarcastic: Anyway, I think the joints are what the OP was after. The fuzzy pic shows the bandsaw set-up - as I thought, table tilted to 15 degrees, and a fence to stop the cuts, also at 15 degrees. A square corner on a piece of scrap plywood lined up the workpiece to the blade reasonably well enough for this purpose - if I were more serious, I'd make something better that didn't need a third hand to hold it. Hand-chiselling took out the waste, but it's far easier if you have a second bandsaw to make plumb cuts most of the way into the waste.
> The setting-out needs to be done on both sides so that you'll see where to put the chisel -all sides in fact. I made the compound angle cuts most of the way with the bandsaw, and took them to the line with a tenon saw / backsaw.
> In your set-out, allow for the mis-alignment that caught me.
> 
> ...


Well done John, you've effectively cut the joints in the same way as me, only I used a table saw angled over at 15 degrees. As you found out, getting the mating parts to 'line up' when fitted is tricky. I've developed a method of using one mating part, having cut it, to line up the other for cutting. It's just a question of allowing the thickness of a blade to get alignment right. I've got about 10 'scrappers' to testify to my trials!
I also use spacers to index the workpiece, and I've found this to make good tight and accurate joints, as I've assumed you cut to marked out lines?
Dave


----------



## cutter79 (Oct 21, 2012)

*Do not give up*

I went into the shed and adjusted the angle to 15 degrees but I came up with a bad fitting joint so it is back to the drawing board my slots were ok but my fingers ended up too small.

I will have another go
Sam


----------



## JCJCJC (May 15, 2012)

DHB said:


> Well done John, you've effectively cut the joints in the same way as me, only I used a table saw angled over at 15 degrees. As you found out, getting the mating parts to 'line up' when fitted is tricky. I've developed a method of using one mating part, having cut it, to line up the other for cutting. It's just a question of allowing the thickness of a blade to get alignment right. I've got about 10 'scrappers' to testify to my trials!
> I also use spacers to index the workpiece, and I've found this to make good tight and accurate joints, as I've assumed you cut to marked out lines?
> Dave


Dave - I still can't see how a table saw can cut the bottoms of the slots parallel to the end of the workpiece. Yes, I cut to marked out lines - I set the lines out before chopping the plank in two with the intention of reducing error - I inadvertently dialled in a huge error! As for cutting out the waste - I followed the old rule of joinery practise, which is cut on the waste side of the line. That gives you 'fat' fingers and tight slots - with a minimum of final adjustment the joint will/should be tight. I'm going to have another go shortly, to try to eliminate the offset error I made yesterday. I've worked out that the error is a function of the 15-degree angle - it's the short side of a rectangle of which the 15-degree cut is the diagonal, if that makes any sense. I've also realised that the easiest way to remove the waste in the slots is to make some extra cuts with the compound-angled bandsaw set-up. That should make the chiselling part much easier. It's essentially a variation on the way Norm does simple carcase halving joints with his radial-arm saw - reduce the waste to fine, easily broken slips.
Onwards...


----------



## JCJCJC (May 15, 2012)

MAFoElffen said:


> FYI- PhilP and I talked about what was probably used to mass produce this joint. He quickly mentioned the "Robinson Dovetail Cutting Machine", circa 1867. Said that the blades could be set to cut those compound angle finger joints. Said that a lot of these were sold to and used in Australia. They were used for production/manufacturing.
> 
> I later found this post of his:
> When were machine cut dovetails first used?





Gaffboat said:


> Wow! Great detective work Mike. Having been around a lot of wooden ammo boxes in the field artillery I knew they would have been made by machine to handle the volume needed. Really interesting to see the machine that could produce this unusual box joint. Amazing what this forum can accomplish.


Ahem!!! This strikes me as heresay evidence!! Let's see proof!!!


----------



## DHB (Dec 30, 2012)

JCJCJC said:


> Dave - I still can't see how a table saw can cut the bottoms of the slots parallel to the end of the workpiece. Yes, I cut to marked out lines - I set the lines out before chopping the plank in two with the intention of reducing error - I inadvertently dialled in a huge error! As for cutting out the waste - I followed the old rule of joinery practise, which is cut on the waste side of the line. That gives you 'fat' fingers and tight slots - with a minimum of final adjustment the joint will/should be tight. I'm going to have another go shortly, to try to eliminate the offset error I made yesterday. I've worked out that the error is a function of the 15-degree angle - it's the short side of a rectangle of which the 15-degree cut is the diagonal, if that makes any sense. I've also realised that the easiest way to remove the waste in the slots is to make some extra cuts with the compound-angled bandsaw set-up. That should make the chiselling part much easier. It's essentially a variation on the way Norm does simple carcase halving joints with his radial-arm saw - reduce the waste to fine, easily broken slips.
> Onwards...


You're right, I have to use a coping saw to take out the material. The good thing about the coping saw is that it fits into the cuts made by the table saw blade. Also, by setting the table saw blade so it just cuts the depth equivilent to the thickness of the workpiece, there is hardly any work needed for the chisel. I'm convinced though that jig saw, with a 15 degree table and a fence set to enable the bottoms of the table saw cuts to be cleaned up would be the neatest solution. 
Still not the final answer though, I'm going to see if I can get an appropriately shaped dado cutter made up. Then it should be possible to clean out the shape in one pass, and use a spacer peg to index along. Watch this space!


----------



## cutter79 (Oct 21, 2012)

Details of my first post on the subject.

"I very much doubt that the router can be used to produce any of the two sides Obviously this was made long before routers were invented and completed with a hand saw (IMHO) I would not like to attempt making it on the table saw or the table router"
Sam

After a trial run yesterday to complete the joint with a 15 degree angle. I returned this morning an I am pleased to post the results. Completed with the router in the plunge mode; with a little sawing and chiselling to fit the angles. I also posted an alternative hand sawing and chiselling. I had in mind to complete the alternative stage withe the use of the trimmer. (Maybe another day) then it could be said it was completed with the router only without any hand sawing and chiselling. The material dimensions were reduced to 16mm as I did not possess a longer 10mm cutter for the job
Sam


----------



## cutter79 (Oct 21, 2012)

cutter79 said:


> Details of my first post on the subject.
> 
> "I very much doubt that the router can be used to produce any of the two sides Obviously this was made long before routers were invented and completed with a hand saw (IMHO) I would not like to attempt making it on the table saw or the table router"
> Sam
> ...


Spent some time constructing a simple jig where I could remove the waste material for my alternative method of construction shown above. I am now convinced that the project can be completed with the router without the need for hand tools. I will submit a few pics later this week
Sam


----------



## DHB (Dec 30, 2012)

cutter79 said:


> Spent some time constructing a simple jig where I could remove the waste material for my alternative method of construction shown above. I am now convinced that the project can be completed with the router without the need for hand tools. I will submit a few pics later this week
> Sam


Looking forward to seeing this Sam, as I can't see how the router will help in the bottoms of the slots. In the meantime, I've been on to a tooling specialist to see if my 'graduated dado cutter set' will work. Hope to hear back from him in the week.

Dave.


----------



## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

JCJCJC said:


> Ahem!!! This strikes me as heresay evidence!! Let's see proof!!!


OK, then, John. Are you saying that joints would be cut individually with a bandsaw? I think not, especially from the 1890s onwards by which time the production volumes would make such labour intensive work far too expensive, especially for a low-value throw away item like an ammo box. That particular style of dovetail/angled joint machine was used for stacked component cutting but was last listed in the 1930s by Robinsons. The angle of the two blades could be changed because they are rather like a wobble saw body in principle. 

If it matters by WWII Robinsons had come-up with a different machine to do the task of straight box dovetailing quicker and in any case many wooden crates and boxes by that time were being assembled using resin glues making stacked grooving saws on a tall spindle moulder with a top bearing and support arm (something else you won't find as a "standard" accessory) to produce finger joints the way to go. As most of this type of production of wooden crates died out in the 1960s today there is little record of many of the production techniques used, however it should also be noted that many firms such as Robinsons produced "specials" and one-offs which did not appear in their general line catalogues. For example one such machine still in daily use quite near me is a 2-axis clog sole copy lathe - never made in volume but nonetheless they made a few. Or don't you believe that it is possible to turn a clog sole in two eliptical axes to get the correct shape, either?

Regards

Phil


----------



## JCJCJC (May 15, 2012)

cutter79 said:


> Details of my first post on the subject.
> 
> "I very much doubt that the router can be used to produce any of the two sides Obviously this was made long before routers were invented and completed with a hand saw (IMHO) I would not like to attempt making it on the table saw or the table router"
> Sam
> ...


Lovely work Sam, you're moving this problem closer to a solution every time. At first glance at your thumbnails, I thought you had it fully solved, however, if I 'go large', I see you have exactly the same tiny offset issue I had, the pieces don't align well top and bottom. It's challenging, to say the least. I'm still giving it some thought. What I've been doing is drawing the joint on paper, in 2D, such that when I fold along the centre line it gives me the corner of the box - hope that makes sense. From that then I hope to discover the correct set-out lines and have another go, also subject to weather - it's -6C here at the moment and my shed isn't heated - I don't want to solve this that badly!


----------



## JCJCJC (May 15, 2012)

Phil P said:


> OK, then, John. Are you saying that joints would be cut individually with a bandsaw? I think not, especially from the 1890s onwards by which time the production volumes would make such labour intensive work far too expensive, especially for a low-value throw away item like an ammo box. That particular style of dovetail/angled joint machine was used for stacked component cutting but was last listed in the 1930s by Robinsons. The angle of the two blades could be changed because they are rather like a wobble saw body in principle.
> 
> If it matters by WWII Robinsons had come-up with a different machine to do the task of straight box dovetailing quicker and in any case many wooden crates and boxes by that time were being assembled using resin glues making stacked grooving saws on a tall spindle moulder with a top bearing and support arm (something else you won't find as a "standard" accessory) to produce finger joints the way to go. As most of this type of production of wooden crates died out in the 1960s today there is little record of many of the production techniques used, however it should also be noted that many firms such as Robinsons produced "specials" and one-offs which did not appear in their general line catalogues. For example one such machine still in daily use quite near me is a 2-axis clog sole copy lathe - never made in volume but nonetheless they made a few. Or don't you believe that it is possible to turn a clog sole in two eliptical axes to get the correct shape, either?
> 
> ...


Hi Phil, hope this is a good-natured debate. First, I didn't say a bandsaw or bandsaws were used - I don't know or claim to know what was actually used way back then. I simply responded to MAFoElffen, who quoted another person - you, as it happens - who said the Robinson machine could do it. That's heresay.

I don't see how Robinson's undoubted ingenuity in making a clog sole machine makes any difference to working out how this ammo box joint was produced, and I have no belief one way or the other in the intricacies of that process, ok?

Let's stay on-topic with solving the 15-degree compound angled finger joint construction, eh?

Regards

John


----------



## cutter79 (Oct 21, 2012)

JCJCJC said:


> Lovely work Sam, you're moving this problem closer to a solution every time. At first glance at your thumbnails, I thought you had it fully solved, however, if I 'go large', I see you have exactly the same tiny offset issue I had, the pieces don't align well top and bottom. It's challenging, to say the least. I'm still giving it some thought. What I've been doing is drawing the joint on paper, in 2D, such that when I fold along the centre line it gives me the corner of the box - hope that makes sense. From that then I hope to discover the correct set-out lines and have another go, also subject to weather - it's -6C here at the moment and my shed isn't heated - I don't want to solve this that badly!


Thanks John for your comments.
To be honest I had not given any consideration at this point to line up the sides. Now I have mastered the angle cut I am working on the allignment. Also I am working on a jig that will take that little bit off the fingers (with the router) and not having to chisell the base of the female section. This can be seen on one of the attempts. Doing this will not change the strength of the joint but it will be able to be produced completely (I think) with the router. Also the same Cutter and template guide can be used throughout the process. I have enjoyed the challenge and I am still working on the final outcome. Like you I do not have the opportunity to go to the shed when I feel like it as here at the moment the weather here has been up in the 100C for a number of days and my shed is not air condidioned


----------



## JCJCJC (May 15, 2012)

Sam - that kind of heat is unimaginable to me. I was in Spain once at 45C, couldn't operate at all in it - my Cetic DNA isn't comfortable much above 25C I think. Here's a pic of my car this morning at -6C, just leaving for the school run - no need for aircon here today!


----------



## cutter79 (Oct 21, 2012)

Just to let you know I have experiencesed those condidition in Scotland
Sam


----------



## breezy (Nov 4, 2011)

cutter79 said:


> Like you I do not have the opportunity to go to the shed when I feel like it as here at the moment the weather here has been up in the 100C  for a number of days and my shed is not air condidioned


Sam did you mean 100F !!!! 

Sydney had a record 45.8C the other day.


----------



## cutter79 (Oct 21, 2012)

breezy said:


> Sam did you mean 100F !!!!
> 
> Sydney had a record 45.8C the other day.


oops sorry about that
Sam


----------



## cutter79 (Oct 21, 2012)

Just to let all know a project I had considered could not be produce with the router I was wrong. Today I completed the joint (my variation) just as strong. Completed with the router I will submit pics tomorrow of the jig I had constructed to enable me to complete the joint with the router as the only tool without the need for hand tools
Sam


----------



## cutter79 (Oct 21, 2012)

cutter79 said:


> Just to let all know a project I had considered could not be produce with the router I was wrong. Today I completed the joint (my variation) just as strong. Completed with the router I will submit pics tomorrow of the jig I had constructed to enable me to complete the joint with the router as the only tool without the need for hand tools
> Sam


The smaller jig was constructed to remove the waste material with the router instead of using the hand tools.

It is just as strong a joint as the original. But it was completed with the router

So I was wrong when I submitted my first posting
Sam


----------



## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Great Job Sam.that's neat..:sold:


====



cutter79 said:


> The smaller jig was constructed to remove the waste material with the router instead of using the hand tools.
> 
> It is just as strong a joint as the original. But it was completed with the router
> 
> ...


----------



## DHB (Dec 30, 2012)

cutter79 said:


> The smaller jig was constructed to remove the waste material with the router instead of using the hand tools.
> 
> It is just as strong a joint as the original. But it was completed with the router
> 
> ...


Terrific work Sam, but I can't quite see how both jigs work. Any chance you could post some details? I'd like to make a jig in order to start producing the ammo boxes in the near future, as your method may be less time consuming.

Dave


----------



## cutter79 (Oct 21, 2012)

DHB said:


> Terrific work Sam, but I can't quite see how both jigs work. Any chance you could post some details? I'd like to make a jig in order to start producing the ammo boxes in the near future, as your method may be less time consuming.
> 
> Dave


Dave
This jig is not easy to explain on the method of construction over the forum. I had produced many sketches and drawings before I could begin any jig construction, then there was the alterations that had to be made. One thing I will say is there needs to be some understanding as to how template guides are used and also take into consideration the three x 15 degrees that are required in the construction. 

I added the second little jig just to save time sawing and chiselling; this does not alter the strength of the joint in any way, it just means that the boxes can be constructed more quickly. 

I have spent a considerable time trying new techniques; some without success, but I was determined to produce the results that I have to date (there is still the setting up to 'line-up' the top and bottom edges) this will have to wait until I return from holiday, meantime John may come up with the answer soon. 

Personally; to repeat, from the start, I was Not convinced that it was going to be possible to complete the joint with the router. We tend to answer without really looking into finding a solution or even having a go first; simply because we have been thinking in a negative manner. 

This exercise has certainly taught me a lesson _'Do not say it cannot be achieved until at least some effort has gone into solving the problem'_

So Dave thank you for introducing the topic
Sam


----------



## JCJCJC (May 15, 2012)

Lovely work Sam and very well done on your perseverance, but...are the bottoms of the 'female' slots square, and parallel to the corner of the box per the originals? I'm absolutely not trying to pee in your hat and I totally respect the fine work you've done on this, bit is it really the exact joint the original poster wanted to reproduce?


----------



## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

JCJCJC said:


> Lovely work Sam and very well done on your perseverance, but...are the bottoms of the 'female' slots square, and parallel to the corner of the box per the originals? I'm absolutely not trying to pee in your hat and I totally respect the fine work you've done on this, bit is it really the exact joint the original poster wanted to reproduce?


No it isn't, but Sam, it sure is a neat joint! Good work! I am beginning to agree with Sam's first assessment... It ain't possible with just a router. Either that, or it is so simple we are missing it! Not sure which!


----------



## cutter79 (Oct 21, 2012)

JCJCJC said:


> Lovely work Sam and very well done on your perseverance, but...are the bottoms of the 'female' slots square, and parallel to the corner of the box per the originals? I'm absolutely not trying to pee in your hat and I totally respect the fine work you've done on this, bit is it really the exact joint the original poster wanted to reproduce?


Thanks John
Yes to your question re bottoms of the female are square, but not parrallel to the sides as the original post. It is my version of producing the joint because I was not in a position to saw and chisell them as per original. Actually I did it on one of the joints but after some consideration I asked myself was it really necessary? did it weaken the joint in any way? and then could I produce a jig to complete the joint with only one tool the router (and eat my own words from my first post)? Personally the joint is just as strong in every way, and yes after some investigation I was able to complete the joint with the router. 

Just a litle footnote: There was less chance of me breaking that corner in question when I was putting the joint together and with the router it can be produced quicker.

As I said I have enjoyed the challenge and personally I would be happy with the results.

Will get back soon to see if there are other solutions as I am off on Holiday for a few weeks
Sam


----------



## cutter79 (Oct 21, 2012)

Returned from holiday today. And i was a little dissapointed to see there were no further postings. Did anyone give it a go?
Sam


----------



## JCJCJC (May 15, 2012)

cutter79 said:


> Returned from holiday today. And i was a little dissapointed to see there were no further postings. Did anyone give it a go?
> Sam


Too wet, cold and damp to have a go, but now that Spring is upon us (here) I'll get back to it asap.


----------



## cutter79 (Oct 21, 2012)

JCJCJC said:


> Too wet, cold and damp to have a go, but now that Spring is upon us (here) I'll get back to it asap.


John I know the feeling When I got home it was 42degrees C and yesterday was just as hot. so no shed for me either
Sam


----------



## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

At the risk of getting yet another naysayer I think I have come across an example of this task being done by machine, today:










Take a look at the stack of componants resting by the machine. The machining was all done using stacked saw blades. This is a Young's Patent Diagonal Dovetailing Machine

Regards

Phil


----------



## cutter79 (Oct 21, 2012)

Phil P said:


> At the risk of getting yet another naysayer I think I have come across an example of this task being done by machine, today:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Great research Phil. I also see that a number of sides are cut at the same time. At the moment I can only produce one at any time on my jig. Also as I found out there is only need for one setting of the material for both sides. When at first I was considering another set up for the second and fourth side of the box; then I realised one setting for both sides.
Thanks for the posing now I can see how quickly they were produced
Sam

Note; Just had a closer look at the photograph and noticed the number of banks of saw blades used to produce the section of the joint in one cut. That really is some machine and explains clearly the need to produce the boxes in such numbers. 
Thanks again Phil
Sam


----------



## DHB (Dec 30, 2012)

Phil P said:


> At the risk of getting yet another naysayer I think I have come across an example of this task being done by machine, today:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hey Phil, and excellent piece of dectective work, agree with Sam, this is some machine. I was always convinced there would be a machine, composed of angled saws (or dados) that could complete this task. Any further details of the machine, how it was driven etc. would be facinating.
I have been in touch with a few machine tool companies, both in the US and Australia, asking if they could produce a dado set with a 15 degree angle and a width of 12.5 mm, but have yet to find anyone who can. In fact a rep from Freud, I think it was, said that to use the blades angled at 15 degrees would be dangerous! I can now send him this illustration!
From what I can see, the angled slots seem to have the bottom machined parallel to the sides (which us just as I need them), which suggests that the blades in the machine were also angled. Very nifty.
Great work!!


----------



## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

DHB said:


> I was always convinced there would be a machine, composed of angled saws (or dados) that could complete this task. Any further details of the machine, how it was driven etc. would be facinating.


Well, what can I say, Dave? 

The illustration comes from a book dated circa 1902. either way published later than 1899 (correction October, 1900 - just found a reference to an event in that month) because an event in that year is referred to in the book - so quite an old source. The machine was American (so maybe worth a search through the US Patents Office) and flat belt driven as were all machines back then



DHB said:


> I have been in touch with a few machine tool companies, both in the US and Australia, asking if they could produce a dado set with a 15 degree angle and a width of 12.5 mm, but have yet to find anyone who can. In fact a rep from Freud, I think it was, said that to use the blades angled at 15 degrees would be dangerous! I can now send him this illustration!


Then with respect you need to find a rep who actually understands wood machining! Or at least a bit about box making. Until the 1960s wooden box making with finger joints was very common, after all it was the era before plastic crates. Have we really lost that knowledge so quickly?

There are still a couple of specialists in the UK who could manufacture such tooling, the most obvious one to spring to mind would be Whitehill tooling at Luton who have invested heavily in CNC maching and grinding equipment since the 1990s to make high-grade carbide-tipped and disposable tip tooling

The issue of how to machine these on modern equipment isn't that complex, but requires a bit of lateral thinking. Have you considered using a tilting arbor spindle with the arbor tilted _backwards_ by 15 degrees?The fence would need a 15 degree raking face fitted to it. The work piece, instead of being presented vertically and at right angles to the fence would also need to be tilted backwards at 15 degrees to the vertical to make the cut. Without drawing the whole plot in CAD I don't know what the actual angles would need to be, but at the ned of the day it's just geometry.

The long spindle required for this might need some extra engineering in the form of an additional top support bearing, but these are quite common in window line spindle moulders as here









Although some additional engineering work would be required to tilt the steady to match the arbor tilt

To my mind there is one other relatively modern machines capable of undertaking this task, the hauncher. Whilst that video shows a straight cut an angled bed (in two planes) could be usd to achieve what you are after.

Haunchers have a horizontal arbor up to about 300mm (12in) long and designed to carry stacked tooling. The arbor is supported by a bearing at each end. The shaft and tooling move up and down vertically to cut haunches, multiple finger slots, etc in the workpieces which are normally stacked flat, horizontally laid out. The last British maker of these (as a production item rather than a one-off) was to my knowledge a firm called Dominion who ceased manufacturing in the 1990s, but no doubt there are Chinese machines out there unless you fancy the idea of a home-brew machine

Of course, as I've said, all this requires a bit of technical drawing and geometry to achieve. So I'll leave that to you!

Regards

Phil


----------



## JCJCJC (May 15, 2012)

Superb research Phil - very interesting machine, well done and thanks for sharing it.


----------



## DHB (Dec 30, 2012)

Phil P said:


> Well, what can I say, Dave?
> 
> Hey Phil
> 
> ...


----------



## cutter79 (Oct 21, 2012)

Routing with Tom O'Donnell - YouTube

Take a look here


----------



## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

No question that Tom is highly gifted in jig design. I miss talking to him.


----------



## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

Mike said:


> No question that Tom is highly gifted in jig design. I miss talking to him.


Nice jig and a nice joint... however it still *does not* duplicate the original pictured joint. I still contend it can not be done with a router alone. Compare the 2 joints and you should see the difference. It does duplicate a couple of others attempts, but not the original joint.


----------



## cutter79 (Oct 21, 2012)

Dmeadows said:


> Nice jig and a nice joint... however it still *does not* duplicate the original pictured joint. I still contend it can not be done with a router alone. Compare the 2 joints and you should see the difference. It does duplicate a couple of others attempts, but not the original joint.


As I previously mentioned it did not duplicate the original joint that was first posted and I did state that it could not be achieved with the router alone (that is the original design) What I had a go at was producing a joint that was just as strong as the original produced with the router alone. I could have made the same joint with with the router and finishing the various corners with the the chisel to complete it to the original design.


----------



## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi

It may not be dead on the same but I have always been a fan of Tom he can see things that most don't and make a jig to do it with a router..he his one sharp guy,,, 

===


----------



## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

bobj3 said:


> Hi
> 
> It may not be dead on the same but I have always been a fan of Tom he can see things that most don't and make a jig to do it with a router..he his one sharp guy,,,
> 
> ===


That jig definitely shows that he is talented, no doubt!


----------



## samurai (Aug 14, 2011)

i guess this is quite easy task for my pantorouter so i will try this week.all i need to do spend 10 minutes for making template.


----------



## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Wow... I remember when this thread first came into being. I had to deal with underemployment as Phil is doing now busily trying to survive... and this thread has continued on hasn't it?

I don't understand how someone doesn't see the many ways this can be done. Early on, I mentioned stacked shaper with a profile. Then I remember talking with Phil about this, who had talked with some old timers... Who told him, that for something like that, they used to just take the edge of the blade and cut at an angle... creating that same profile.

Then with multiples of that design, creating a stacked cutter that creates a gang cut of those multiple profiles that are cut at one time. Then the other part of the profile is that besides cut at a 15% angle, it is cut at a 15% bevel. I see this as going across the cutter at an angle, instead of straight across, just like my cove fence.

I also see a couple posts back, where people commented on Phil's archaeology find "machine"... They are right. If the bevel was straight on, stacking pieces and cutting at once would work as shown. Since there is a bevel, pieces after the fist are a little off for each one. Turning it over for a cut, the other order of the pieces would have to be reversed, so they end up being cut in the same order, so the sides edges line line on each piece, left to right. Of course, that would also require trimming the edges to get them to line up and produce waste... but would work for single pieces.

Someone mentioned pantorouter... which reminded me of something and I had to chuckle. Most of you don't realize that PhilP, besides being a great guy, besides being an amazing carpenter, besides having an fascinating interest in old woodworking tools and machinery, besides being involved with woodworking for many more years than I (and I am not young)... How many of you know that he is very modest of himself, but he is quite well quite known for Woodworking CNC and setting up CNC Tooling. How many know that "he" was the technical service and the onsite trouble shooter (that got sent out to companies) for a Los Angles based CNC manufacturer? He was the guy at shows that demo'ed the Tooling. This may be a perspective into his interests, respect for old tooling and how his sharp mind works...


----------



## samurai (Aug 14, 2011)

rether than chuckling laughter yoga would be more nice and good for health.
everybody has their own idea.you can't judge the ability of fish to climb on tree.
PhilP is a great person and we do respect him.


----------



## DHB (Dec 30, 2012)

*Compound Angled Box Joints, the finished articles*

Hi All

After a few visits overseas and other projects that have 'got in the way' I've finally completed the six ammo boxes featuring the compound angled joints. 
I've attached some photos of the finished articles. Very interesting project, that has led me to explore a few areas of woodworking! It's also interesting that no real definitive solution to making these boxes in large numbers has been identified. 
In the end I found the most accurate, but time consuming, solution was to mark out and cut the first side, then using this side as a template mark out and cut the mating part, making sure to offset the mating part to allow for the 15 degrees angle ( the offset was calculated by trigonometry and marked on my fixture).
Amazing how much detail this early design incorporated, given that many thousands of boxes would have been manufactured. I even had to learn how to splice the rope handles!
Next project is a replica machine gun to be made from MDF!
Thanks for everyone's input, and inspiration from Cutter 79, whom I was lucky enough to meet during the project.


----------



## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

Great result, Dave.

Glad you were able to achieve what you wanted.


----------



## samurai (Aug 14, 2011)

looks really very classic.love the rope handle, sliding lid and also that knob.


----------



## Gaffboat (Mar 11, 2012)

The boxes look great Dave, and I'm looking forward to seeing the replica machine gun in MDF project. :yes4:


----------



## CharleyL (Feb 28, 2009)

Dave,

Your boxes came out great and they should certainly meet the needed purpose, but the sailor in me keeps telling me that your ropes aren't quite correct. 

They should have been double wrapped for a full turn of the loop and not only done part way. Of course, this would have required either using a smaller diameter rope or increasing the clearance hole, but the end result would have been a rope loop with the same rope diameter all the way around the loop. If you ever make these again you might want to consider making them this way. 

I've really enjoyed this post and learned quite a bit from it even though I didn't get the time to participate. Thanks for the education that I got from it though.

Charley


----------



## cutter79 (Oct 21, 2012)

Dave
Congratulations on your achievement I know what you had to go through to get the final result. I have to admit there was no way that I could have completed the boxes of this dimension with the router. (Unless I owned a 150mm+ Cutter)


----------



## Willway (Aug 16, 2012)

Otis, Carl.P will probably pipe in on this, bee hives is his business. I think most of his are done on the router and shaper. My own experience as a young man was all saw and chisel.


----------

