# Freud 2000E Starting/Speed Problems



## Milt & Carol Lane (Nov 12, 2011)

THis isn't quite like the other posts I've found on Freud speed control issues - but there's a lot out there I haven't seen.

My Freud starts - but sometimes does not come up to full speed - just to a 'slow' speed that is probably less than 1,000 rpm.

Sometimes, when it does come up to speed, after routing a little while, it falls back to the 'slow' speed. I have to shut it off, and then hope it comes up to speed when its turned back on.

I have checked brushes, and they look OK, as does the commutator. I cleaned out the insides with dry air, including the speed controller and especially its dial. I did notice that when it starts and goes to the slow speed, if I lightly push the speed control dial 'up' or 'down' (as opposed to the directions it rotates in), sometimes it will jump to the selected speed on the dial.

The local Missouri repair shop is out of business, and I contacted Freud. He suggested shipping it to NC for them to repair. When I asked for a guesstimate of costs - he could not tell me until after they look at it.

I suspect a speed control issue, but since other posts on the site state that Freud doesn't make the exact part anymore (one in the router is dated March of 1996), and the replacement requires a different armature - total cost will be in excess of $200.

Long, detailed post (used to be an engineer before retiring - somethings you never get over). Looking for any suggestions.

Thanks

Milt


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Milt, there should be a repair shop somewhere close that can at least diagnose the problem, it doesn't have to be a designated Freud repair shop to do that. If it is a speed control, it may be possible to bypass it and you could use an external speed control instead. If it is an armature problem then just scrap it. I had a big Freud plunge from about that era and when it died I checked into a new armature and it was $10 cheaper than buying a new router. That router didn't last nearly long enough for what I paid for it and I won't buy another Freud because of that.


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## rwbaker (Feb 25, 2010)

Go to radio shack and get a can of what used to be TV tuner Cleaner (NO Lubricant) - Now called Electronics cleaner - spray into the potentiometer while rotating from side to side. IF the carbon disk is still whole this should rid you of the issue, IF the carbon disk is broken, it will come out in pieces. Either replace this part or junk the unit. You have already decided that it will cost >200.00 plus shipping to possibly get it fixed. You are an engineer - do the ROI calcs and you will see that a new router is in order. Anything that cost >2/3 of new is usually trashed. A repair cost that is greater than a new unit is a no-brainer. Happy Shopping - Baker


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## Milt & Carol Lane (Nov 12, 2011)

Baker,
Thanks for the tip. It seems to have helped, but not solved.
The router started to speed a couple of times, and changed speeds throughout the range. I then put in a 3/8" roundover, adjusted to full height and took a small cut of a pine 2x4 at about 12,000 rpm. Went smooth - so I went for the gusto and made the next pass a full cut. The router dropped to the 'slow' speed, less than 1,000 rpm (seemed like I could almost count the cuts on the three bladed bit). 

Restarted (took two tries to get up to speed), and set it around 20,000 rpm. Took a full cut with no problem. Went to a piece of red oak, full cut went OK. Tried another face full cut, and occasionally the speed went UP to max and then dropped back to the selected speed.

I'll never take a first pass full cut on wood for a project, so I'm going to limp along with this until it totally fails. When I do replace it I'll have to find a router that takes the Freud template guides I got as a gift right after picking the 2000E up at a garage sale.

I appreciate the thoughts on ROI - that's why I am not going to ship it to Freud for analysis and repairs. Odds are not with a positive cost analysis.


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## Milt & Carol Lane (Nov 12, 2011)

Charles,
I have seen a few posts on other threads that indicated the Freud speed control is integral to the armature and that an external speed control won't work. However, I like the thought.

When this router fails totally, if the replacement router will support an external speed control, I will buy that first and see if I can get the Freud to work on it. If not, a few articles have indicated that the external speed control is 'better' in that it is not subject to vibration, dust, and poorer heat transfer (there is great air flow over the internal ones, but their heat sinks are typically so much smaller that components heat up more).


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## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

Milt & Carol Lane said:


> Charles,
> ... but their heat sinks are typically so much smaller that components heat up more).


Exactly... here is how small!


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## rwbaker (Feb 25, 2010)

*bad bad freud*



Milt & Carol Lane said:


> Baker,
> Thanks for the tip. It seems to have helped, but not solved.
> The router started to speed a couple of times, and changed speeds throughout the range. I then put in a 3/8" roundover, adjusted to full height and took a small cut of a pine 2x4 at about 12,000 rpm. Went smooth - so I went for the gusto and made the next pass a full cut. The router dropped to the 'slow' speed, less than 1,000 rpm (seemed like I could almost count the cuts on the three bladed bit).
> 
> ...


Your carbon pot, attached to the speed dial is probably cracked - this is a case of a 1.00 item costing 200.00 to repair - enjoy your new router and list the other on Craig's list as a red boat anchor.

good luck - Baker


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## Milt & Carol Lane (Nov 12, 2011)

Baker,
Thanks, I think. Since the Freud is basically dead weight and will come in handy on next year's Canada fishing week - I can't really do any harm by messin' with it.

Any idea what the resistance and wattage of the speed control might be. Although doubtful, I might be able to put a fixed resistor in place of the speed control and make this a single speed router.

Lots of problems in doing so - will there be leads to solder to? Will the heat from soldering damage the electronics if I can't get a sink in place? Is full speed the max resistance on the pot, or is the minimum? What about just shorting it out?

I doubt our friends at Freud would share any of this info - I best check with some local repair shops to see what they know.

Milt


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Milt, I will get on the phone with Freud today and see what I can find out.


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## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

Milt & Carol Lane said:


> Baker,
> Thanks, I think. Since the Freud is basically dead weight and will come in handy on next year's Canada fishing week - I can't really do any harm by messin' with it.
> 
> Any idea what the resistance and wattage of the speed control might be. Although doubtful, I might be able to put a fixed resistor in place of the speed control and make this a single speed router.
> ...


Just a sidebar, any router that has constant speed regulation must have some speed headroom in order to regulate. This means that bypassing the speed control, will/may cause the router to run at faster than designed speeds. That is/was the concern with bypassing the speed control on this router. It's not a matter of it can't be done, or the router won't run. It is matter of excessive speed can cause other issues, including things flying apart! Even with an external speed control the router speed may exceed design when run at or near full speed! This and legal liability issues probably answer your question about Freud's possible help!

Please proceed with this in mind and use due caution!


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## Milt & Carol Lane (Nov 12, 2011)

Exactly why I need to know range on existing pot - I would plan on picking a resistor near the top speed end, but not 'at' the top speed end.

Then, the main issue is getting an external speed control to work with it - the router came with some large panel raising bits that would not be usable unless the router can be slowed.

The more I think about this, the more likely I am to just relegate the router to the fishing boat anchor position.

As I recently mentioned to a friend - I like 'elegant' engineering solutions - ones that address the root cause, are safe, and economical. Changing out the speed control just addresses economics - and may not be safe at all.


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## ggom20 (Feb 1, 2012)

Hello!

I can see here:
http://www.freud.ca/PDFs/FT2200Manual.pdf

That this router has got a real speed regulator , using ref 105 tachometer
as feedback sensor for regulation loop.

It means that using an external speed reducer / adjuster will be a lost in speed
accuracy as nothing is as good as this feedback loop type regulation it has.

I would suggest to show it to a good electronic practician.
The faultly part is probably a potentiometer that's 2 or3 usd worth.


It usualy has 3 connections leads and it's chachacteristics are easy to measure
if router is dismounted before it is totally broken.

It consist of disoldering it , using soldering iron and vacum pump or a special
copper wire made to attract the solder.

Desoldering Bulb:
Desoldering Bulb : Desoldering Bulbs | RadioShack.com

Desoldering Braid:
Desoldering Braid : Soldering Tools & Supplies | RadioShack.com

Then measuring resisting value between leads 1-3. Using Ohmmeter
The rotation characteristic is probably linear.And one can plot the curve whith
a few minutes of measurements.


Changing it requires a 20 or 30 w soldering iron and is usually easy.

In most circuit designs the 3 leads are used ( Not always).
In the case of 3 leads used, 2 fixed resistors could replace it at a fixed speed.

Did you try the spray cleaner idea ?
Personnaly been using it as a temporary solution, but i would recommand
special spray with lubricant, not the dry ones.

This one seems approriate:
RadioShack TV Tuner Cleaner : Cleaners | RadioShack.com

Regards.
Gerard


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## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

Milt & Carol Lane said:


> Exactly why I need to know range on existing pot - I would plan on picking a resistor near the top speed end, but not 'at' the top speed end.
> 
> Then, the main issue is getting an external speed control to work with it - the router came with some large panel raising bits that would not be usable unless the router can be slowed.
> 
> ...


Assuming the pot is the problem(by no means a sure thing) if you replace it with fixed resistor(s), the soft start function is *still* active... you *CAN NOT* use an external speed control that way! That kind of "fix" does not disable softstart!

The info Gerard gave you is correct. The trick to replacing the pot will be finding on the correct physical size and design to fit in the space and for the control knob to fit! 

There are a number of possibilities as to what the actual failure might be

1. As already discussed... the control pot. I would try the contact cleaner first, and yes I would recommend one _with a lubricant_. Just don't drown the PCB. A little in the control it self is all that should be needed!

2. The triac(the part that is riveted to the heat sink) has failed or has poor solder connections on the foil side of the PCB. If just a connection issue, resoldering the connections should fix it. if failed, you will end up spending $10-25 with no guarantee it will work and no return usually on electronic parts!

3. A capacitor or 2 may be failing. This may show up as swelling/splitting on the top of the cap. These are quite inexpensive and relatively easy to change.

4. The control IC... the part with like 14-16 legs could be at fault. Fairly unlikely, but possible. Chance of finding the part? Slim to none.. many times manufactures remove the part number to prevent even identification, and it may well be custom to that model machine!


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## Semipro (Mar 22, 2013)

Milt 
Tool service center st Charles mo 
Great repair, lots parts ask for estimate


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## Milt & Carol Lane (Nov 12, 2011)

John,
Lady at Tool Center said to bring it in for a free estimate on repairs - they are not familiar with Freud, but said that quite often parts from another supplier can be substituted.


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## rwbaker (Feb 25, 2010)

*Mr*



Milt & Carol Lane said:


> Baker,
> Thanks, I think. Since the Freud is basically dead weight and will come in handy on next year's Canada fishing week - I can't really do any harm by messin' with it.
> 
> Any idea what the resistance and wattage of the speed control might be. Although doubtful, I might be able to put a fixed resistor in place of the speed control and make this a single speed router.
> ...


I've called Freud several times and the tech services have always been very helpful, the same with Jet and most other manufacturers. Before I retired I made sure all my techs gave the same degree of service to customers and competitors alike, and because it was the industrial world it had better have been good service. Give them a call, after all, all they can say is no and unless you have two boats who needs two anchors?

Best Regards - Baker


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## Milt & Carol Lane (Nov 12, 2011)

Baker,
You're correct that manufacturers want to support users - and since much of my career was involved in troubleshooting/repairs to controls for pumps, valves, feedback control systems, etc., I have relied heavily on manufacturers.

Generally, manufacturers are concerned with the appropriate use of information to assure that implementation does not endanger people. If I represented Freud, I would not share the information needed to 'fix' my particular problem. If misapplied, (such as a 1/4 Watt resistor where a 1 W is needed, or if the leads wind up exposed and present a shock hazard) it not only could endanger an individual, but would also open up the manufacturer to litigation.

I am extremely confident in my ability to accomplish this task effectively, but I would not pass on the info to someone without equivalent skills and knowledge.

Regardless, I am not going to try this myself anyway - I will be taking it to the repair shop in St. Charles (delayed from doing so because of a death in the family, and some commitments in the next few weeks - so there will probably be a delay in posting their findings).

I agree with your thoughts. The info I got from this site on others issues with the speed control pretty well convinced me that sending the router in to Freud would be too costly a fix. I could be wrong, but a local shop willing to take an intelligent look (and presumably someone Freud would share the required technical info with) might provide a result I am willing to afford.


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## CR1 (Aug 11, 2011)

Bosch tools often have this same problem. I have it on a jig saw too.
I bet they buy their speed controls from the same electronic supplier.

Reminds me of Jaguar and Triumph buying their electronics from Lucas (Prince of Darkness) Electronics corporation. They seemed incapable of contemplating another supplier for decades. But they are Brits so I guess it's understandable.


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Change that to ALL routers have problems with controller modules and I will agree.


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## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

Mike said:


> Change that to ALL routers have problems with controller modules and I will agree.


Yep, it's not the best environment for an electronic PCB!:no: And nearly no one repairs the PCB's anymore, at least commercially!


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## Milt & Carol Lane (Nov 12, 2011)

Visited with the folks at Tool Service Center in St. Charles this afternoon. They would troubleshoot and order any needed parts from Freud to complete a repair. They do not try to fix circuitry, controllers, etc. They would not remove the speed selector dial from the controller and replace it.

So --- guess I have some neat spare parts, if anyone needs.


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## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

Milt & Carol Lane said:


> They do not try to fix circuitry, controllers, etc. They would not remove the speed selector dial from the controller and replace it.
> 
> So --- guess I have some neat spare parts, if anyone needs.


That's all most any for profit shop will do! Even most TV repair is that way any more... replace the module, very little component level repair. As you have found out, a lot of the time that isn't cost effective. One of several reason I took early retirement and got out of that rat race!


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## Milt & Carol Lane (Nov 12, 2011)

I am leaning towards the Makita RP 1800 as a replacement.

It is not soft start, so an external speed control will work. Saw one at harbor Freight for around $20.

Makita comes with an extension for the height adjustment, so set up for the router table.

I did not see any negatives on the RP 1800 on the site (also, not many positives).

I also agree about retirement being better than work.


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## ggom20 (Feb 1, 2012)

Hello!

That's module changing, they don't even have to understand 
what's goin on, and what was wrong...

Like my cars, keep changing hydraulic modules, Waterpumps, etc. When just one tiny 
1 USD value O-ring is defective.
But no way to access to it.
I 'd like you keep us informed ; About the final bill...

Regards.
Gérard.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Milt & Carol Lane said:


> I am leaning towards the Makita RP 1800 as a replacement.
> 
> It is not soft start, so an external speed control will work. Saw one at harbor Freight for around $20.
> 
> ...


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## Milt & Carol Lane (Nov 12, 2011)

Thanks for the feedback on the Makita 1800 - Home Depot asks $270 for it, but do not stock it in stores. Shipping is free. With taxes and a speed control the totzl cost should be around $325 (US).

"Fixing" the Freud with a new speed control and rotor would be in the neighborhood of $200. 

Speed will be adjusted by 'ear' - no graph or numbers to suggest what speed the machine is producing as found on variable speed units. The upside is that there is also no automatic speed adjustment built into the machine itself. So, when it starts to slow down during a cut, I'll hear it and know to make adjustments.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Based on my experience with one of Freud's routers, I would say it is time to cut your losses. There is no guarantee that the new part is any better than the original so that router could become a money pit.


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## Milt & Carol Lane (Nov 12, 2011)

Not many options for a single speed, 3.25 hp router. 

Went to Rockler and Woodcrafters this weekend, and the guy at Woodcrafters talked about how a separate speed control external to the router reduces the speed of the router - he said it limits the power available to the router so it can't run faster. Sounds like its basically a voltage divider device - effectively reducing the voltage provided to the motor. If so, it means that in addition to reducing the router's speed, it also reduces the router's power. The purpose of reducing a router's speed is to handle large diameter bits - slowing down the speed of the outside edge of the bit reduces/eliminates burning of the wood. But bigger diameter bits need the power to cut at that reduced speed, and the external speed controller is reducing the power.

Made sense to me. And a router with a selector switch for various speeds instead of a continuously variable speed control would be more robust. Turns out that there are not many of those either - and the Porter Cable both firms carry, the 7815, has that, but a few problems with dust accumulation that impacts height adjustment - many of the 7815 users talked about removing the router fairly often to clean dust before making height adjustments.

So - probably going to pick up a continuously variable speed control router. Leaning towards the Triton TRA001. It appears to be magical - rated 2400 watts, which would mean 20 amps on a 120 vac circuit. Specs say it only draws 15 amps, though.


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## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

Milt & Carol Lane said:


> Not many options for a single speed, 3.25 hp router.
> 
> Went to Rockler and Woodcrafters this weekend, and the guy at Woodcrafters talked about how a separate speed control external to the router reduces the speed of the router - he said it limits the power available to the router so it can't run faster. Sounds like its basically a voltage divider device - effectively reducing the voltage provided to the motor. If so, it means that in addition to reducing the router's speed, it also reduces the router's power. The purpose of reducing a router's speed is to handle large diameter bits - slowing down the speed of the outside edge of the bit reduces/eliminates burning of the wood. But bigger diameter bits need the power to cut at that reduced speed, and the external speed controller is reducing the power.
> 
> ...


Internal and external speed control both work the same way, so don't let anyone fool you. About the only difference is most modern internal speed controls have feedback so the router stays at a more constant speed. With the external controller, the speed will tend to drop with increased load. Speed controls basically control on/off time, rather than applied voltage(which reduces the effective/average voltage). If it split the voltage to control speed... the heat sink that would be required would be *VERY LARGE*! as the control itself could be using as much power as the router! This extra power would be do nothing but generate heat.

A 3.25 HP router still has more HP available at 10,000 RPM than a 2.25 HP router has at 10,000 RPM. Very rarely will a so called 3.25 HP router develop it's rated power in any event unless you are really pushing it very hard! Won't even talk much about the accuracy of those ratings to begin with. The bottom line is advertisers lie!

The only thing you can depend on, is that in general 3.25 HP routers are more power than 2.25 HP, which are more powerful than 1 HP routers!


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## ggom20 (Feb 1, 2012)

Hello!
The triton looks good...

To Dmeadows:
Imho: 
It hurts me reading such things.

Bad news:
You got it wrong about power and heat.
Speed regulation systems are time-based switching systems, not resistors.
The power dissipatipion occurs is very small.
In the best designs it's near zero power lost in heat.
That's the zero- crossing switching design; also known as full-wave regulation.
The current is alternative, then the switch allows some full alternances to 
pass to the motor, some are simply stopped.
In the US you got 60 waves per second.
If you circuit passes 1 wave every 60 you got 1/60 power out
If circuit passes 1 wave and stop next one there is 1/2 power out.
If passes 59 and stops 1 got 59/60 of power.
Numbers can be anything , say 999/1000.
Just some examples , neat and nearly no power lost in heat as switching occurs when
there is no power to play with.
(60 times per second the circuitry carries nothing.)

The good news:
About usability, you got it right about feedback :
When the speed-variator is integrated to the machine it is possible to create
a feedback-loop by using a captor that tells the circuitry what is the actual speed
of machine. It is then possible to use large cutters at low speed , all the power
will be there if needed. The total 2000w or whatever is the motor.


Note:
Got this on my Metabo drill that works fine since 1989; It can drill very large
holes in steel (1"), even at low speed settings.

Regards.
Gérard.


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## Milt & Carol Lane (Nov 12, 2011)

Gerard & DMeadow - Thank you. The Woodcraft guy sucked me in and I did not analyze his example very well. But then, I also did not buy the router he was suggesting.

A number of the sites selling external speed controllers did mention that the controller should not be used with soft start motors. I assume it is in case the switching from the external controller makes the internal controls think the machine was just turned on and would attempt to go into soft start mode when the routers at full speed.

Having prematurely given up on the single speed Makita RP1800, I began leaning towards the Triton TRA001 - some really neat features, but continuously variable speed control mounted in the router, with soft start. 

Based on DMeadows and Gerard's explanations above, I have to re-evaluate the trade off.


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## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

ggom20 said:


> Hello!
> The triton looks good...
> 
> To Dmeadows:
> ...


No, I did not get it wrong. You apparently misread what I said! What I said was *IF* speed control was done *resistively*, the heat generated would be huge.

That is why we use a triac based speed control. When the triac is on, the voltage drop across it is very small, so the power dissipated in the triac itself is small. That is why the speed control module can have a very small heatsink!

However the triac controls the firing point on the AC voltage sine wave! It *DOES NOT* skip or omit cycles! It control the % duty cycle(on time) for _*each*_ cycle! No, they do not fire at zero-crossing in this application.

If 60 time per second no current flowed, *NO* power would be used as there are only 60 cycles *for* current to flow! The motor speed would be zero! I won't confuse you with the fact that it is actually 120 times per second, as the triac does fire on both halves of the cycle, will I?

It *does not hurt me* to read such things, does kind of amuse me though at the misinformation floating around.

AC Motor Speed Controller Circuit


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## ggom20 (Feb 1, 2012)

Hello Duane!

You are probably perfectly right about what you said about triacs 1970" techs.


But things are changing...

And my 1989 drill was already using full wave switching ,and still is. 

Not this old stupid firing angle triac system.
It generates a lot of unwanted parasitic elecromagnetic pollution.
And a lot more loses as it is switching at a moment when voltage is hight.

I might admit that a lot of "cheap", currently available products might still use this system,
but it is totally outdated .


The full wave systems gives a full wave if you are using 60 hz then its 60times a second, not 120.
Because use of half-waves would cause permanent magnetisation of magnetic materials.

Unless if some special circuitry would count for odds an even waves. 
maybee a new patent to get !

Anyway,the next to be availlable, in a better world, is far better than the full-wave old tech from the 1980" !

That is the use of 3 ore more phases motors.
The regulating system is a power-converter that generate a multiphase output
that drives a motor with no brushes.
Exactly like an industrial 3 phas motors keep the speed in synchronicity with the mains frequency.

It's been used for decades with motors dedicated to elevators, cnc,and a lot of industry demands.
It is already availlable as a battery powered screwer- drill made by festool.


Regards.
Gerard.


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## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

ggom20 said:


> Hello Duane!
> 
> You are probably perfectly right about what you said about triacs 1970" techs.
> 
> ...


Gerard, sorry but you are wrong. Full wave rectification always has given 120 Hz ripple output(100HZ on 50HZ source of course)( with some added HF noise!). With triac speed control, you have to fire the triac 120 times per second or you will have half wave rectification and an SCR would suffice!! Yes, it is 60HZ AC output, but you have to fire the triac in both half cycles.. current flows stops and the triac turns off at zero cross in either direction!

The switching time of a triac is so fast that there is still little power dissipation. The triac is either at near zero current(when off), or near zero voltage(when on). Since power is equal to voltage times current(P=IE), when either is near zero, there is very little power consumed by the triac!

Don't listen to me.. check any electronic engineering book! I am only a broadcast engineer, who has held both commercial and amateur radio licenses and a tech that spent 35 years repairing the stuff. Also taught radio electronics for several years, but hey, what do I know?

Actually induction motors run synchronous to the power line frequency on single phase as well.

Personally I have not seen many 25,000 RPM 3 phase motors, although it certainly doable, but talk about RFI! Somewhat easier to filter, also easier to radiate!

Don't really care what Festool does.. they are out of my price range! Or at least what I am willing to spend! It(the tech, if it proves worthwhile) will trickle down in time though.

However this is terribly off topic, and I am not here to teach any one electronics! I get $40.00 per hour for that! Just trying to clear up a few misconceptions about the speed controls that are actually used in/with routers. As routers are near commodity these days, usually they are built on the cheap.

Really, really off topic, early(1970's) microwave ovens used zero cross triac firing.. they quickly found out that was not needed(no advantage in the real world!)! Just added complexity to the control circuit, nothing more. Even at that, firing at zero cross is a far cry from skipping cycles. The triac was used only as an electronic switch, not a regulator.

Nuff off topic from me... Regards.


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