# Refreshments in the shop?



## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

I'm wondering how you guys handle refreshments in the shop. This is my setup. The water pot was $20 at Target and heats to boiling in about 3 minutes. I like peach flavored tea, and the British version because it is so rich. Munchies in the cabinet next to the water pot. The syrup is sugar free. It sits on top of the small refrigerator/freezer with sodas and adult beverages for hanging around in the shop (not while operating equipment) :nono:. 

How have you folks handled the thirsty side of shop time?


----------



## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

No food in my shop...invitation to rodents coming in.
I just carry a thermos mug down, for beverage; no beer in the shop, or anywhere I'm using tools that bite.


----------



## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

Ever not so often I will carry a mug of coffee out to the shop, but usually end up dumping it out on my way back into the house as I get too involved in my work to drink it. 
I take a lot of breaks, one per hour I would estimate to give my ole back a little time to quit biting me, and go into the house, then empty one tank and fill another.

Herb


----------



## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

@Herb Stoops:

The matter of full tanks is an issue for a lot of us. I don't always go out there to do woodwork. Sometimes I just want some time to let the old thinker rumble. Then caffeine comes into play. I have built a 185 foot long dry stream bed with an island where I have a bench under a canopy of trees. I like to take a toddy out there now and again. No alcohol with power tools, I agree. 

Kind of wondering in what state you live? I'm in Southern California out in the desert.


----------



## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

Great question, Tom...

I find that when I carry a beverage into my "shop" I generally don't ever touch it again. It finally dawned on me that I don't "drink and drive" so I stopped carrying drinks in.

I also found I was moving it out of my way from time to time...

Now, if I had a real shop and had room for a mini-kitchen then I would need a closet for my clothes, small bathroom so I could shower and etc... oh, yeah, a bed to take naps...a laptop to keep up with RF...

Oh my....I might not have to talk to humans again...:wink: :no:


----------



## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

a bench under a canopy of trees. I like to take a toddy out there now and again. No alcohol with power tools, I agree. 

Kind of wondering in what state you live? I'm in Southern California out in the desert.[/QUOTE]

I thought the definition of "desert" was no trees? maybe an oasis?

The trees are likely very thankful for that.

Herb


----------



## kp91 (Sep 10, 2004)

Right inside the house from the shop is an old side by side refrigerator with ICE and water in the door. In the summertime I don't like to hang around inside too often and get cooled down too much, so I just bop in and out and top off my water.

No food, though, never even thought about snacking!


----------



## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Herb Stoops said:


> I thought the definition of "desert" was no trees? maybe an oasis?
> 
> The trees are likely very thankful for that.
> 
> Herb


We are in the high desert, in a "low" spot about 3,000 feet. The yard is landscaped to be like a small, 1 acre forest area with 1500 feet of trails and near 50 tons of rocks and boulders that I personally collected and placed in my younger days. All on drip. A nifty spot, here's a pix of a smidgen of the dry creekthe other is of the seating area. The overhanging trees have grown and there is a bench in there now.


----------



## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Tom; great landscaping job! Hopefully you had a little bobcat or something to help with the material moving?


----------



## billyjim (Feb 11, 2012)

I take a drink with me, either a bottle of green tea or a bottle of water. It doesn't have to be cold as long as it is wet. I don't take food and I never have alcohol. thirst is not too much of a problem as long as I have something to sip on. If I drink too much I just have to go inside much more frequently than I want. something about getting old I believe.


----------



## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

DesertRatTom said:


> We are in the high desert, in a "low" spot about 3,000 feet. The yard is landscaped to be like a small, 1 acre forest area with 1500 feet of trails and near 50 tons of rocks and boulders that I personally collected and placed in my younger days. All on drip. A nifty spot, here's a pix of a smidgen of the dry creekthe other is of the seating area. The overhanging trees have grown and there is a bench in there now.


Tom, you built a beautiful paradise there. What a wonderful backyard, I must say. You must have your own water system to have a drip system ? 

On another note, a toilet would be nice in the shop sometimes, but good luck around here getting a permit for that. 

Herb


----------



## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

A good cup of coffee in the shop and I"m set................


----------



## Gaffboat (Mar 11, 2012)

Coffee is always required. It's one of the things that powers my workshop. When the caffeine is gone, so is production.


----------



## Shop guy (Nov 22, 2012)

I'm like several of you, if I take a drink out there I usually forget about it and end up throwing it out.


----------



## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

Cold coffee with a little dust floating around in it is pretty good at times.

HJ


----------



## BrianS (Nov 7, 2004)

I take my coffee out in an insulated, sealed, cup. The one I like is sold by Contigo, but I'm sure there are others that work just as well.... it stays drinkable for 2-3 hours.


----------



## Gaffboat (Mar 11, 2012)

BrianS said:


> I take my coffee out in an insulated, sealed, cup. The one I like is sold by Contigo, but I'm sure there are others that work just as well.... it stays drinkable for 2-3 hours.


Coffee is always drinkable — hot or cold. :yes4:


----------



## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

DaninVan said:


> Tom; great landscaping job! Hopefully you had a little bobcat or something to help with the material moving?


Nope, carried every single rock and boulder to the truck, unloaded, carried to destination in wheelbarrow, hand placed every rock. Today, I can't even lift a lot of them. When we started the yard looked like the first picture below. Flat and full of weeds. Everything on the property was added by my wife and myself. But that was 14 years ago.

Second picture is the beginning of the seating area you saw above. And, BTW, my first woodworking on the site, a bridge to the "island." Third picture is of the dry stream bed after a $350 water leak.

The last picture was taken in winter a couple of years ago. You can see my shop with its white roof. We've added another set of pathways between the house and the upper center of the property. I think you can even see our '92 Dakota that did all the transporting. There are a couple of other sheds. You should see it in full bloom in spring and summer.

My wife was surprised because I caught this vision of how it would turn out when there was nothing but a few weeds and a couple of dead trees. Its a little over 270 feet from the back of the house to the back fence. People come to visit just to enjoy the back yard and my Son in law and his wife told us they want the house after we pass because of the yard and all the improvements to the house. It is quite a wonderful low water desert property. :grin:


----------



## MT Stringer (Aug 15, 2012)

Nice place you have there, Tom.

Since my shop is my garage and attached to the house my set up is not very fancy. I have a small refrigerator with water, Diet Cokes, and a few beers. I never drink any alcohol while working in the shop.

A rest room is just inside the door of the house.

I don't know if you guys have heard about the Yeti brand of coolers and mugs, but they seem to have created quiet a stir here in Texas. All of their products are expensive. But I have heard nothing but praise from people who have bought them.

The offshore fishermen really like them. The coolers keep ice a really long time. My wife's niece raves about the coolers of which they have several ranging from a small one to the larger version. They go fishing and camping a lot so keeping ice is a good thing.

But they really like the tumblers. Keeps your drink hot or cold all day. Maybe if I win the lottery, I will try one.

YETI Coolers- Premium Ice Chests, Apparel, and Gear


----------



## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

DesertRatTom said:


> Nope, carried every single rock and boulder to the truck, unloaded, carried to destination in wheelbarrow, hand placed every rock. Today, I can't even lift a lot of them. When we started the yard looked like the first picture below. Flat and full of weeds. Everything on the property was added by my wife and myself. But that was 14 years ago.
> 
> Second picture is the beginning of the seating area you saw above. And, BTW, my first woodworking on the site, a bridge to the "island." Third picture is of the dry stream bed after a $350 water leak.
> 
> ...


Tom , you never cease to amaze


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

DaninVan said:


> No food in my shop...i*nvitation to rodents* coming in.
> I just carry a thermos mug down, for beverage; no beer in the shop, or anywhere I'm using tools that bite.


exactly...
and a spilled beverage could spell disaster or even catastrophe......


so neither...


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

DesertRatTom said:


> We are in the high desert, in a "low" spot about 3,000 feet. The yard is landscaped to be like a small, 1 acre forest area with 1500 feet of trails and near 50 tons of rocks and boulders that I personally collected and placed in my younger days. All on drip. A nifty spot, here's a pix of a smidgen of the dry creekthe other is of the seating area. The overhanging trees have grown and there is a bench in there now.


that is 1st rate Tom...


----------



## vindaloo (May 30, 2009)

I always have a bucket of tea out there (900ml). I have a tea cosy to put over it to keep it from getting cold and getting dust in it. I do find myself forgetting it a lot, so only manage half of it, but it does stay hot longer under the cosy.


----------



## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

vindaloo said:


> I always have a bucket of tea out there (900ml). I have a tea cosy to put over it to keep it from getting cold and getting dust in it. I do find myself forgetting it a lot, so only manage half of it, but it does stay hot longer under the cosy.


Hadn't thought of that. I do have a small microwave to heat things up again. I usually use disposable coffee cups just to make it easy to clean up. Come spring, my wife and I will be sitting out on the island in the morning with coffee and tea and conversation. I semi retire July 1 and will really have a lot more time for woodworking and enjoying the garden, which is really more of a park than a garden.


----------



## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Quoting myself here...
"No food in my shop...*invitation to rodents coming in*."

Did I tell you the rat story? I did? Too bad; I'm telling it again...
Just before Xmas, our neighbours invited a bunch of us over for drinks.
_(These folks live in a rancher style home, built over a crawl space.)_
The last two years have been Hell for them, they've had their hardwood floors flooded twice; once requiring a lot of drywall removal, and the second time just the floor had to come out.
They finally got back into their home, maybe mid November.
So, there we are, coming in, taking our shoes off, and coming through the kitchen into the open plan living area.
On my way past the kitchen I notice that the dishwasher is out/missing...can't keep my foot out of my mouth...I casually ask as to why?
Frosty look directed at _Mr_. Neighbour by Mrs. Neighbour...
"Sit down, have a drink, and I'll explain" says Mrs N.
"I noticed water coming out from under the dishwasher and onto the new hw floor. I shut it off immediately, mopped it up, and called the service guy.
He came over, opened the dw door, looked inside and called us over to look. ! Rats, he said."
For those who haven't been paying attention, new dishwashers have _plastic _cabinets...great idea, in theory.
Mrs. N. continued to explain, " I told **** that there was a rat in the crawl space and to _fix the problem_. Didn't happen. The rat came up through the plumbing cutout and ate through the back of the dw."

Two lessons here:
1) do what SWMBO says...when she says it.
2) don't put hardwood anywhere there's water!!!

In cases such as above, I believe the first item is a Felony, earning an extended stay in the doghouse.


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

and get a DW w/ a SS tank...


----------



## DonkeyHody (Jan 22, 2015)

Drinks are Verboten in my shop. Our humidity is high year-round, and cold glasses sweat. I don't want rust rings on my tablesaw, or joiner, and the horizontal surfaces are just too inviting. It's only a few steps across the grass to the kitchen, so if I want a drink or a snack, I just take a break and go where they live. I'm finding that as I get older, the breaks are good for my feet and legs anyway. And I'm fortunate thatjjj my wife is not someone I need to escape from.


----------



## N'awlins77 (Feb 25, 2011)

Like many have already said, if I take something out (bottle water, Diet Coke) it ends up getting hot! So most of the time, I bring nothing. :wink:


----------



## tvman44 (Jun 25, 2013)

I simply walk about 50' to the house and get whatever I want, when I go back in to the house I return the cup or mug. 0


----------



## Ghidrah (Oct 21, 2008)

No food or liquid held in the shop or brought down, however I sometimes bring a cuppah throat searing java with during the winter.


----------



## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Part of why I use paper cups is that they don't sweat. I also sometimes use an insulated, sealed cup. Feels really good sometimes to just go out there to sit and tinker with hand tools, or just sit and read awhile. My wife has really gotten into oil painting lately and her studio is in the sun room so the aroma drifts into the rest of the house. What you smell is what you taste, which is part of why I tend to tank up out in the sheds. I have two now, first is the shop, second is a 10x12 I finished as my office. Nice to be out of the house, kind of like a short commute to work. The office is really comfortable summer and winter while the shop takes some heating or cooling to be really comfortable. I have a wireless remote that turns on the office heater from the house. Have, but not yet installed the same for the shop. AC has to be turned on manually. 

My consulting work is largely a matter of writing, so having the outside office gives me peace and quiet. The shop occupies my mind. I think I'm a little like Oliver, always thinking through something or other. Back when I was a newspaper writer and editor, I learned to let my mind process information until the story just wrote itself. Still like that today. Also more or less like to write to deadlines. Woodworking is the opposite of that, and you produce something real and solid. In consulting its more about empowering the success of others. 

Thanks guys for letting me share my wonderful back yard. It is a work of art. My dad was a landscaper/gardener and I swore I'd never stick my hands in dirt again. Well, If he were still around, he'd love hanging out in our back yard. But he'd be about 117 years old, so he'd probably leave the rocks where they are.


----------



## timbertailor (Oct 4, 2009)

I stumbled across this thread today. I find it curious that I was mulling over the same question. Should I include a kitchen in the workshop. 

My old house had an attached two car garage so popping into the house to get a drink or a bite to eat was never really an inconvenience. It was often welcome, in our Texas heat.

But now that I am making plans for a much larger building, I have decided to include a small kitchen and bathroom with shower. It will be nice to spread out and actually have a refuge of my own.

As far as drinks, I used to have a dedicated spot for my drinks so that, one, I could find it again, and two, so that it did not gt placed somewhere it should not. I just used old, scratched up CDs for coasters and a cover to prevent "lagniappe" from entering my drinks.

Thanks for your post and question. It has helped me finalize my decision.


----------



## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

timbertailor said:


> I stumbled across this thread today. I find it curious that I was mulling over the same question. Should I include a kitchen in the workshop.
> 
> But now that I am making plans for a much larger building, I have decided to include a small kitchen and bathroom with shower. It will be nice to spread out and actually have a refuge of my own.


I really would like to have a bathroom in a shop, but its just not workable here. As I get older, that run to the house gets longer and longer.


----------



## timbertailor (Oct 4, 2009)

DesertRatTom said:


> I really would like to have a bathroom in a shop, but its just not workable here. As I get older, that run to the house gets longer and longer.


I just get tired of being screamed at for dragging sawdust into the house. Even thinking of putting the washer and dryer out near the shop so my shop clothes can stay in the shop.


----------



## DonkeyHody (Jan 22, 2015)

timbertailor said:


> I just get tired of being screamed at for dragging sawdust into the house.


Repeat after me: "Awww Honey, that ain't nothin' but good clean sawdust!"
Keep saying it until she believes it too.


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

okay...
slop sink, hopper and coffee bar..


----------



## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

timbertailor said:


> I stumbled across this thread today. I find it curious that I was mulling over the same question. Should I include a kitchen in the workshop.
> 
> My old house had an attached two car garage so popping into the house to get a drink or a bite to eat was never really an inconvenience. It was often welcome, in our Texas heat.
> 
> ...


Here it is difficult to put a bathroom in the shop, permit wise. Something to do with building another residence on your property or some such nonsense.
I had a friend who collected Corvettes and wanted to build an 8 car garage and put a toilet and sink in it. His permit was held up for nearly a year, until he deleted the toilet. Quite frustrating, I would say.

Herb


----------



## timbertailor (Oct 4, 2009)

Herb Stoops said:


> Here it is difficult to put a bathroom in the shop, permit wise. Something to do with building another residence on your property or some such nonsense.
> I had a friend who collected Corvettes and wanted to build an 8 car garage and put a toilet and sink in it. His permit was held up for nearly a year, until he deleted the toilet. Quite frustrating, I would say.
> 
> Herb


Whats a building permit? :wink::wink::wink::wink::wink:

Seriously, I hope I do not run into these issues. I should be okay since the building will be my residence, if I have my way.


----------



## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

timbertailor said:


> Whats a building permit? :wink::wink::wink::wink::wink:
> 
> Seriously, I hope I do not run into these issues. I should be okay since the building will be my residence, if I have my way.


That's right, I forgot about that, hope you succeed, I have often thought that an outside bath room would be nice. Not the old one/two holers either,had enough of that when I was young.:no::no:

Herb


----------



## Knothead47 (Feb 10, 2010)

I might take a cup of joe into the shop once in a while. Don't have room for a refer or microwave or anything else. Lucky to have all my tools in one place.


----------



## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Many decades ago I put a darkroom in my parents' garage. It was built over a long ago stream bed. We dug out a 3ft wide by about 5 ft deep hole, filled it with 3/4 inch rock, put a pipe into it then sealed the top of the rock with concrete then filled up with dirt on the top. Went down into sandy soil. No permits for such a thing back then. Mostly water and very dilute photo chemicals went in there. So far as I know it is still working. That was on the outskirts of Los Angeles county. Don't think that would pass inspection, although with all our area still on septic tanks, I don't see why a french drain type of thing wouldn't work for a liquid only facility would be problematic for a tiny shop and an old guy. It would only push fluids out back a little further down to start with. Wink wink, nod not.


----------



## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

I guess if the flow were right, you could use a sump pump arrangement to tie in to an existing sewer system. Then of course, there is the old timer's coffee can trick.


----------



## Gaffboat (Mar 11, 2012)

DesertRatTom said:


> I really would like to have a bathroom in a shop, but its just not workable here. As I get older, that run to the house gets longer and longer.


Years ago, in a different life, another agent and I were set up in a the back of an old panel truck on a New Orleans side street off of a main thoroughfare. We'd been there for several hours watching an apartment across the street and had been feeling the discomfort of too much coffee for the past hour. The discomfort was rapidly getting close to critical mass.

We were discussing our options for leaving this prime spot to find some relief when we heard someone approaching us on the sidewalk from the bar at the corner. We stopped our conversation and sat still until he passed ... but he didn't. We suddenly felt the truck move slightly as he leaned against it. Then we heard a zipper go down and groans of relief as he peed in the gutter. I've never heard a man enjoy relieving himself as much as that guy.

My partner and I made eye contact as we listened to the sounds of this world class whiz while thinking of our own desperate need and instantly got the giggles. It was all we could do to stifle our laughter, stay dry, and stay still until the guy moved on.

The moment he was out of sight we radioed the others and told them we were leaving our eyes-on post and they'd better move another car into our place ... fast!


----------



## timbertailor (Oct 4, 2009)

DesertRatTom said:


> I guess if the flow were right, you could use a sump pump arrangement to tie in to an existing sewer system. Then of course, there is the old timer's coffee can trick.


I am going to have to put in a septic system, I am afraid. No way around it unless I can tie into city waste system.

They are also getting really strict about how much of your property you can develop and how much has to be left untouched or converted into a runoff collection area for rain.

It has been quite a learning experience since I am new to commercial property.


----------



## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

timbertailor said:


> I am going to have to put in a septic system, I am afraid. No way around it unless I can tie into city waste system.
> 
> They are also getting really strict about how much of your property you can develop and how much has to be left untouched or converted into a runoff collection area for rain.
> 
> It has been quite a learning experience since I am new to commercial property.


You most likely have a holding tank on the RV, it will give you practice every Sat. morning pulling the trailer down to the nearest dump station and dumping the waste. Then bringing back the RV and backing it into the parking spot. After a few trips ,you will be ready to hit the road and explore the countryside.

Herb


----------



## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

Brad does that RV have leveling jacks on it? I know a lot of them do, they sure are handy when you park them and set them up.

Herb


----------



## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Herb Stoops said:


> Brad does that RV have leveling jacks on it? I know a lot of them do, they sure are handy when you park them and set them up.
> 
> Herb


I have a feeling that puppy is all computer controlled . Touch a button and the jacks come out and start self levelling the trailor


----------



## timbertailor (Oct 4, 2009)

Herb Stoops said:


> Brad does that RV have leveling jacks on it? I know a lot of them do, they sure are handy when you park them and set them up.
> 
> Herb


Yes. They are electric and can be operated via the 6 in one wireless remote. It also operates the 16 foot power awning and the three slides. Great for watching while you extend them so you do not hit something.

Also comes with a power tongue jack. No more cranking.


----------



## timbertailor (Oct 4, 2009)

Herb Stoops said:


> You most likely have a holding tank on the RV, it will give you practice every Sat. morning pulling the trailer down to the nearest dump station and dumping the waste. Then bringing back the RV and backing it into the parking spot. After a few trips ,you will be ready to hit the road and explore the countryside.
> 
> Herb


Never really thought about how much waste I will be producing a week but I guess I am going to find out. Also has sensors in the tanks and gives you a graphic read out of their current status. Same for the batteries.

Yall have been telling me for years that I am full of sh!$. I guess I am going to find out exactly how much. LOL:laugh2:


----------



## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

Wow, that is really quite a rig. I suppose it even has a generator? That is a classy rig, has all the comforts of home.

Herb


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

timbertailor said:


> Yes. They are electric and can be operated via the 6 in one wireless remote. It also operates the 16 foot power awning and the three slides. Great for watching while you extend them so you do not hit something.
> 
> Also comes with a power tongue jack. No more cranking.


does it make coffee too...


----------



## timbertailor (Oct 4, 2009)

Herb Stoops said:


> Wow, that is really quite a rig. I suppose it even has a generator? That is a classy rig, has all the comforts of home.
> 
> Herb


No generator but I am purchasing two Yamaha 2000is models. I considered the Hondas but they do not have a fuel shut off so they can be run dry. Ethanol is a killer on small engine components. They produces a clean sine wave power for sensitive electronics and only weigh 45lbs each. Another reason for buying two smaller units. More portable.

I am buying two of them so that I have some redundancy and to reduce wear on any one generator. I can run one when I do not need a lot of power and it keeps the dB levels around 51.5 when one unit is running (human conversation level for comparison).

The cool thing is that you can hook the two generators in parallel, giving you 4000 watts so I can run the A\C systems. Yes, there are two. One in the living area, and one in the bedroom. Once again, redundancy.


----------



## timbertailor (Oct 4, 2009)

Stick486 said:


> does it make coffee too...


No, but with one of these, I bet you I can get as many of those as I need. >>>


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

one of what...


----------



## timbertailor (Oct 4, 2009)

Stick486 said:


> one of what...


With a nice RV, I may be able to find several female coffee makers!

P.S. Based on an old joke about a little boy and a little girl playing doctor.


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

up to speed now...


----------



## JohnnyB60 (Jun 15, 2009)

Hi Tom, 
I love your place. It’s exactly the kind of place I’m looking for. I was looking all around the high desert last September for a 1 acre lot that I can build a shop on. 

I got frustrated and started looking in Nevada where I found quite a few places that I liked and they were in my price range. I got sick before I had a chance to make an offer and went into a coma for two weeks followed with almost 2 months in the hospital. I think I would have died if I had moved to Nevada being so far away from a hospital. 

Anyway I’m still recuperating and it’s going to be a while before I’ll have the strength to move, but I think I’ll keep looking in the High Desert.

Back to the original question is that I do bring coffee in my shop and occasionally my wife will bring me a sandwich if I’m busy and forget about lunch. :grin:


----------



## davefrommd (Mar 1, 2008)

i fill up a one gallon coleman jug with lots of ice and water, i like drinking ice cold water. the water will stay cold all day. i first drink several cups of coffee to start off the day.


----------



## Oakwerks (May 9, 2013)

Same as Herb.....
When I set up my 16x24 shop, my idea was to buy a mini fridge and a coffee pot, and set them on the end of the work bench....
Never got around to doing it after I realized, I too, was throwing out coffee I carried out from the house.... Too much "into the zone" to remember to drink it....
I did run wiring for a stereo, but don't like the distraction while working around sharp teeth..... So, that mostly sits unused....
My wife is the same way... She has a 20x20 sewing "cathedral" that takes her to another dimension....


----------



## timbertailor (Oct 4, 2009)

Herb Stoops said:


> Wow, that is really quite a rig. I suppose it even has a generator? That is a classy rig, has all the comforts of home.
> 
> Herb


I bought two (2) Yamaha EF2000is Inverter Generators. They are VERY quiet at 51dB and only weigh 44 lbs each. Their 2000 watt capacity allows them to run most everything by itself, but, to run the AC\heater, I have to plug them both in in parallel. They come with a cable designed specifically for that. 

I am not getting any younger and hauling around a giant 4000 watt generator is just not my idea of fun, or even practical. With two, I cut my operating hours in half, provide myself with some redundancy, should one of them give me trouble, and it makes it a lot easier to store in the pass through and bring out when needed.

The kit came with cables to connect them in parallel, oil, fuel additive, cables to charge your DC batteries, and a tool to change the spark plugs.


----------



## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

Sure nice looking units, I think you well thought out what you need.

Brad I was looking at those awhile back as an emergency generator. Do you just run cords to each appliance,or do you hook them int the main box and control any breakers from there. 
I kind of wanted to hook mine into the main panel thru a anti back feed switch So I could run my gas furnace and some lights.

If I have heat,and lights and my refrigerator and freezer I can survive.

Do they have those in Propane or Nat.gas? I read that during a catastrophe that the gas stations are down without power and gas is hard to come by. Propane is easier to store than gasoline it doesn't go bad.

Herb


----------



## DonkeyHody (Jan 22, 2015)

Herb Stoops said:


> I read that during a catastrophe that the gas stations are down without power and gas is hard to come by. Propane is easier to store than gasoline it doesn't go bad.
> 
> Herb


We live 3 hours from the Gulf Coast, but we were still without power for 8 days after Hurricane Katrina. At first there was no gasoline because there was no power to pump gas. Then, as each station got power, they would quickly run out of gas because the distribution center was without power. There was a little gas to be had, but lines were long and purchase quantities were limited. Keeping a generator fed 24/7 was an ornerous task for those who had them. 

As soon as the hurricane was over, the weather turned hot and miserable. We just went to stay with relatives who had power. 

After that ordeal, I did a lot of research into natural gas standby generators. I came to the conclusion that if you can't run an air conditioner in Mississippi, the wife won't stay anyway, so I was looking at whole-house units. I finally came to the conclusion that the best plan for us is just to go somewhere else until the power comes back on. That was 10 years ago, and we haven't had an outage of more than a few hours since. 

Your mileage may vary . . .


----------



## timbertailor (Oct 4, 2009)

Herb Stoops said:


> Sure nice looking units, I think you well thought out what you need.
> 
> Brad I was looking at those awhile back as an emergency generator. Do you just run cords to each appliance,or do you hook them int the main box and control any breakers from there.
> I kind of wanted to hook mine into the main panel thru a anti back feed switch So I could run my gas furnace and some lights.
> ...


You wire them just about any way you want. I am just going to use extension cables for power tools, compressor, and the like. I will run it straight to my 50amp service cord with an adpater to run the AC and\or heater. Very versatile. 30 amps + when run in parallel. 

They also make a dual and tri fuel conversion kit for them so you can run gasoline, propane, or natural gas.


----------



## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Herb Stoops said:


> Sure nice looking units, I think you well thought out what you need.
> 
> Brad I was looking at those awhile back as an emergency generator. Do you just run cords to each appliance,or do you hook them int the main box and control any breakers from there.
> I kind of wanted to hook mine into the main panel thru a anti back feed switch So I could run my gas furnace and some lights.
> ...


 You can power your main panel Herb but you have to turn the main breaker off so that it doesn't energize the line to the pole. You should also turn off any loads you don't want or can't power like water heater or electric stove. Depending on the size of the generator you may have to cycle things like fridge and freezer because of the starting load on those motors. You can hook up to an outside plugin but it will only power one side of your panel. (Your panel has two sides. With 220v appliances they connect to both sides, 110v only connects to one or the other.) Anything you want to power would have to be on the same side. Otherwise you'll have to run extension cords.I was thinking of doing the same thing by using an extension cord with two male plugins but you have to remember that both ends are live once plugged into the genset.


----------



## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> You can power your main panel Herb but you have to turn the main breaker off so that it doesn't energize the line to the pole. You should also turn off any loads you don't want or can't power like water heater or electric stove. Depending on the size of the generator you may have to cycle things like fridge and freezer because of the starting load on those motors. You can hook up to an outside plugin but it will only power one side of your panel. (Your panel has two sides. With 220v appliances they connect to both sides, 110v only connects to one or the other.) Anything you want to power would have to be on the same side. Otherwise you'll have to run extension cords.I was thinking of doing the same thing by using an extension cord with two male plugins but you have to remember that both ends are live once plugged into the genset.


Thanks, that is all good information. I think here I will have to have some sort of an approved switching device per code that costs my next years rent. I will have to check.
But what you propose would surely work. Maybe a duplex outlet with one plug wired to one side and the other outlet wired to the other side of the buss. Still have to have a disconnect from the main service, tho, which would be the main breaker if thats legal.

Herb


----------



## DonkeyHody (Jan 22, 2015)

Herb Stoops said:


> Thanks, that is all good information. I think here I will have to have some sort of an approved switching device per code that costs my next years rent. I will have to check.
> But what you propose would surely work. Maybe a duplex outlet with one plug wired to one side and the other outlet wired to the other side of the buss. Still have to have a disconnect from the main service, tho, which would be the main breaker if thats legal.
> 
> Herb


Not sure about the "legality" but in an emergency, you could pull the meter. Cut a piece of plastic to put in the meter base to prevent someone from touching the hot contacts. That totally isolates your house from the lines and protects the power line workers. Then you can hook up the generator to your main panel and turn off the circuits you can't power. That's what I did for my sister's house after Katrina. She lived closer to ground zero and was out of power for several weeks. There was no problem when the power company restored power. Of course you don't have instant on that way, but you save the cost of the automatic switch gear. Most generators big enough for standby power are capable of 220 Volts.


----------



## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Pulling the meter is illegal as that is how grow ops work or at least they by-pass the meter for the power for the grow op. The fine from the power company is much worse that thje charges from the judicial system.

There is no need to pull the meter. The main breaker is your only needed disconnect. It is the only way for power to get in or out.

If you have a 220v gen set then you would need to install a 220v outlet to connect it to. DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES TRY TO GET AWAY USING A STANDARD RECEPTACLE FOR THAT. Everything has to match. If it is a 20amp 220 volt outlet on the genset then you'll need to wire a 220v outlet with 12 gauge wire to a 220v breaker in your panel, etc. You will then have both sides of your panel energized and it won't be an issue which side any appliance is on. 

Re: loading- watch how much load you put on the genset. If you hear the rpm drop and stay down then turn something off asap. The voltage is determined by rpm and a drop will cause a voltage drop and the draw to increase and something will die as a result, either a motor or the genset. Most probably have protection devices built in but your fridge and freezer motors don't.


----------



## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

What Charles said! *LOCK OUT THE MAIN BREAKER!!!!*
No one should be able to flip it back on other than the one person who locked it out.
He/she is the one who has to confirm the generator has been fuly disconnected before the main breaker can be flipped back on.
Basically a bad idea...put the money into the proper switch gear, or run extension cords from the generator to the essential appliances and lighting.
_No connections between the two systems._


----------



## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

If you're going to run lines and in particular 220, I'd bite the bullet and get an electrician. If you mess anything up, and you have a fire, you're going to have a hard timer explaining that you did the wiring yourself. Interior 110 vac wiring is pretty easy and manageable, but it is still pretty easy to violate some code or another.

I have a 60 amp sub panel that is set downline from the main breaker. There is also a breaker in sub panel between the two sheds on each of the three 20 amp circuits, as well as a GFCI where the lines that feed into the sheds are plugged in. When something blows the circuit, it is almost always the GFCI that gets reset. The cables from the GFCI receptacles are 10 gauge stranded wire, encased and sealed into flexible plastic cable. During winter, I just wrap the whole thing in plastic to keep it dry. I had thought of having a 220 line installed out there, but changed my mind. Any 220 tool is going to live in the garage and tap the 220 dryer circuit.

The line from the box to the sub panel runs underground. I was very happy to have them dig the trench instead of me. The system is grounded through an 8 ft copper rod driven into the ground right next to the sub panel. The whole system is set up on both 10 and 12 gauge copper wire.

The 20 amp circuits are ample, the motors are not starved for power. Plenty to spare for my refreshment gadgets.


----------



## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

JohnnyB60 said:


> Hi Tom,
> I love your place. It’s exactly the kind of place I’m looking for. I was looking all around the high desert last September for a 1 acre lot that I can build a shop on.
> 
> I got frustrated and started looking in Nevada where I found quite a few places that I liked and they were in my price range. I got sick before I had a chance to make an offer and went into a coma for two weeks followed with almost 2 months in the hospital. I think I would have died if I had moved to Nevada being so far away from a hospital.
> ...


 @JohnnyB60
This is a really great place to live. A 16x24 shed will require a permit out here. If you want electrical, they will want you to build it on a slab. 

Hope you're feeling better all the time. I had a mild heart attack last year and I don't have the same energy level anymore. Glad to be able to get into the shop.


----------



## DonkeyHody (Jan 22, 2015)

DaninVan said:


> What Charles said! *LOCK OUT THE MAIN BREAKER!!!!*
> No one should be able to flip it back on other than the one person who locked it out.
> [/I]


That's the reason I recommended pulling the meter. The sound of a generator running is sure to attract the attention of any power people in the area because they are worried about backfeed voltage. They can never be sure someone won't flip the main breaker, or they may not be able to access the breaker panel to see that the main is off. But they can see that the meter is removed as soon as they drive up and rest easy. They are much more forgiving of pulling the meter during an extended outage than they would be during normal times.


----------



## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Andy it is illegal for you to cut the seal on the meter and remove it. A couple of years ago a cousin was having problems with her wiring and I couldn't diagnose the problem so she got an electrician out who happened to have his Master's ticket. He and I discussed what I had tried and he checked a few things and all of a sudden he decided to go check the meter base. It was so hot we couldn't touch it so he pulled the meter and we found that the sockets on one side were too wide and not making good contact (the power company had changed the meter a month or two before that). When they found out he pulled the meter they threatened to put a complaint in to the licensing body that issues his ticket. The only way he got out of it was by saying that if he didn't pull it it might have set the house on fire. So if he isn't supposed to pull it you certainly aren't.

And once again I'll say that the main breaker is your one and only disconnect. Flip the switch and then tape over and write DO NOT TURN ON on the tape, or better yet, like Dan says "lock the box or breaker". I'm assuming that if it is your house then you would be the only one who would be turning it on or off to begin with. In an industrial setting or on a jobsite you can't take chances and lockout is mandatory. In most of the places I work nowadays failure to lockout is an automatic dismissal.


----------



## DonkeyHody (Jan 22, 2015)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> Andy it is illegal for you to cut the seal on the meter and remove it.


Sir, I really didn't intend to start an argument about this. Here is the statute that applies to me in this case. Notice that there must be "intent to defraud". The law where you live may be different. Anyone who is afraid of being arrested for cutting the seal on an electric meter certainly shouldn't do it. I'll hush now.

Title 97 - CRIMES
Chapter 25 - OFFENSES AFFECTING RAILROADS, PUBLIC UTILITIES AND CARRIERS
§ 97-25-3 - Meters; tampering with electric, gas or water meters


Universal Citation: MS Code § 97-25-3 (2013)
Whoever, intentionally, by any means or device, prevents electric current, water or gas from passing through any meter or meters belonging to any person, firm or corporation engaged in the manufacture, sale or distribution of electricity, water or gas for lighting, power or other purposes, furnished such persons to register current or electricity, water or gas, passing through meters, or intentionally prevents the meter from duly registering the quantity of electricity, water or gas supplied, or in any manner interferes with its proper action or just registration, or, without the consent of such person, firm or corporation, intentionally diverts any electrical current from any wire or cable, or water or gas from any pipe or main of such person, firm or corporation, or otherwise intentionally uses, or causes to be used, without the consent of such person, firm or corporation, any electricity or gas manufactured, or water produced or distributed, by such person, firm or corporation, or any person, firm or corporation who retains possession of, or refuses to deliver any meter or meters, lamp or lamps, or other appliances which may be, or may have been, loaned them by any person, firm or corporation for the purpose of furnishing electricity, water or gas, through the same, with the intent to defraud such person, firm or corporation, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and upon conviction, shall be punished by a fine of not less than One Hundred Dollars ($ 100.00) and not more than Five Hundred Dollars ($ 500.00), or by imprisonment in the county jail not more than three (3) months, or by both fine and imprisonment in the discretion of the court.

The presence at any time on or about such meter or meters, wire, cable, pipe or main of any device or unauthorized meter or pipe or wire resulting in the diversion of electric current, water or gas, as above defined, or resulting in the prevention of the proper action or just registration of the meter or meters as above set forth, the same being knowingly or intentionally installed, shall constitute prima facie evidence of knowledge on the part of the person, firm or corporation having custody or control of the room or place where such device or pipe or wire is located, or the existence thereof and the effect thereof, and shall constitute prima facie evidence of the intention on the part of such person, firm or corporation to defraud and shall bring such person, firm or corporation prima facie within the scope, meaning and penalties of this section.

Provided further, that if any person, firm or corporation engaged in the selling or delivering of any electric current, water or gas, to a consumer shall knowingly cause to be installed any meter or meters intentionally adjusted or regulated so as to cause such meter or meters to register a greater amount of such electric current, water or gas, than actually passes through the same, shall be prima facie evidence of the knowledge of such person, firm or corporation engaged in selling or delivering such electric current, water or gas, of the existence thereof and shall bring such person, firm or corporation within the scope and meaning of this section, and subject to the operation of this section. Provided further, any employee, stockholder, or member of the board of directors who, with intent to defraud a customer, falsifies, or acquiesces in the falsifying, of any record which results in billing in excess of the amount lawfully due and owing, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and shall be fined not more than Five Hundred Dollars ($ 500.00) or sentenced to serve not more than six (6) months in jail, or both.

Provided further, this section shall not relieve any person, firm or corporation from any other liabilities now imposed by law.

The governing authorities of any municipality are authorized to prosecute any violation of this section which is committed upon meters owned or operated by a utility which is owned or operated by a municipality.


----------



## Ghidrah (Oct 21, 2008)

I came awful close to bringing coffee into the shop this morning. I turned the heater on in the shop around noon yest to thaw out a pallet I picked up from the Lumb yd. Wifey found rescue puppy from AL, (she must have), when shop reached 50° I shut the heater off for the night. Before hitting the rack the outside temp was 3° below -0-, the wind chill must have been Alaska cold -25 > 30° below. The temp in the shop this morn was 42°, fine with a pull over, but I had to go out to the trailer for nails, wonder bar and sawzall, "F*&%"!!! The moisture exiting through my gloves must have caused them to stick to the trailer door's lever, by the time I made it back into the house my hands hurt so much I had to sit on them to warm up enough for the pain to change to the prickly sensation. A warm coffee cup helped big time.


----------



## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Andy why don't you call your electric company tomorrow and see what they say about you pulling the meter instead of shutting off your main breaker? I would be interested to hear what they have to say about. Maybe it is different there.


----------



## JFPNCM (Dec 13, 2009)

A great series as always from beverages in the shop through a great landscape to generator backups. The threads are always full of good information and worth the reads. 

As for the original question, I only take a bottle of water to the shop until the day is done. Then if the neighbors stop by with a cold one that's a different story or possibly a late night glass of wine and a cigar. But those latter events only happen when all the spinning, whirling, sharp things are unplugged. :happy:


----------



## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Andy; an unintended result of pulling the meter is that the Utility is within their rights to do a disconnect at the masthead or the power pole. It'll cost big bucks to get it reconnected.
Permit. Inspection. Connection charges. If it's a Smart Meter, they'll know about it pretty much right away...or at least as soon as the power comes back on. 
If you think about it, it makes perfect sense from their point of view. Puts them back in the driver's seat.


----------



## DonkeyHody (Jan 22, 2015)

I humbly withdraw my suggestion to pull the electric meter. It seems I live in a sheltered world where even public utilities make allowances for good motives and emergencies. 

Just for the record, I was speaking from the experience of having done it; and the utility company never even suggested that I shouldn't have. I can see that it would be bad advice for those not fortunate enough to live where I do. 

I'm going to retire from this conversation while it's still friendly . . . .


----------



## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

DonkeyHody said:


> I humbly withdraw my suggestion to pull the electric meter. It seems I live in a sheltered world where even public utilities make allowances for good motives and emergencies.
> 
> Just for the record, I was speaking from the experience of having done it; and the utility company never even suggested that I shouldn't have. I can see that it would be bad advice for those not fortunate enough to live where I do.
> 
> I'm going to retire from this conversation while it's still friendly . . . .


You didn't say anything bad, if you don't have a main breaker, and a lot of houses don't, it is the only way to stop a power surge when they turn the power back on.


----------



## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Smart meters don't like power surges. *shudders*
Changes are coming to your insurance policy | Examiner.com

Andy; We used to get away with pulling meters on jobs, years ago. BC Hydro no longer has any sense of proportion...
Seal broken; better have a realllyyyyy good excuse ready.


----------



## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

DaninVan said:


> Tom; great landscaping job! Hopefully you had a little bobcat or something to help with the material moving?


Nope. Filled the pickup with rocks til the tires groaned, pulled the truck near where I meant to place the rocks, unloaded them and hauled them in a wheelbarrow to where they were placed. The dry stream bed took weeks to dig out because of the Caliche layer just below the surface. Had to soak it, dig out a few inches and soak it again. Lots of gravel and small stones too.


----------



## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

DesertRatTom said:


> Nope. Filled the pickup with rocks til the tires groaned, pulled the truck near where I meant to place the rocks, unloaded them and hauled them in a wheelbarrow to where they were placed. The dry stream bed took weeks to dig out because of the Caliche layer just below the surface. Had to soak it, dig out a few inches and soak it again. Lots of gravel and small stones too.


Reminds me of when I was growing up,there were no backhoes or trenchers everything was dug by hand. On the farm we dug hunreds of feet of trenches to bury water lines below frost line and the plow. Also drains for septic systems and even for the basement floor which started out over 8' deep and ended up 10'-12' deep to get drainage. The hardpan was down about 3' deep then it was pick and shovel time. After the ditch was dug and the pipe was layed then it all had to be filled back in with dirt by hand.

We had a water well 65' deep and 5' in diam. that was hand dug too.

Herb


----------



## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Andy it isn't just legal reasons that Dan and I are saying that you shouldn't be pulling the meter, it's mostly for safety reasons. The main breaker in your panel is shielded. There is zero risk from turning it off or on. The sockets on a meter base are not shielded. While they may be safe to touch during the power outage they certainly aren't once power is restored. Your main breaker limits the draw in your panel to 100-200 amps but the possible draw at the meter depends on the transformer and how many houses are tied to it. Momentary draw could be over 1000 amps. Putting plastic over the meter lugs could be another issue. The plastic the power company here uses looks like hypalon which is very tough while still being thin. Something like vapour barrier could tear which means the outgoing line could be energized. Use a much thicker plastic and you risk spreading the sockets which could cause a poor connection once the plastic is removed which could lead to the base getting hot like my cousin's meter base did.

There is absolutely no need to do anything other than turn the main breaker off. Nothing goes out or in once its off and there are no risks involved with using it. You just have to take the steps necessary to make sure that no one turns it back on which in a private residence shouldn't be difficult.

This is not meant to be a personal attack on you Andy but Dan and I both see some serious potential safety issues here and we have no idea who may be reading this thread and may take your advice on pulling the meter. As I said, it may be different down there than here although the safety issues remain the same. I went to Mississippi Power's website yesterday and posed the situation to them to see what their feelings on the subject are and I'll share them if they take the time to respond to me.


----------



## DonkeyHody (Jan 22, 2015)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> This is not meant to be a personal attack on you Andy . . . I went to Mississippi Power's website yesterday and posed the situation to them to see what their feelings on the subject are and I'll share them if they take the time to respond to me.


Methinks he doth protest too much. Let's see . . . first you said it was illegal for me to do. When I proved that wrong, then it's all about safety. I tried to take the high road and admitted that my advice isn't good for everyone. Then you contact a power company over 2000 miles from your home to ask how they "feel" about it. 

But I'm sure glad it isn't personal.


----------



## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Andy; seriously? It _isn't_ personal. There are _huge _risks involved for unqualified folks playing around with their electrical system. Not the least of which is inadvertently spreading the prongs on the meter base itself... extreme potential fire risk from poor contact once it's reinstalled. Personally, I know _my_ limitations and they start _South of the main breaker!
_

Charles is one of the most courteous guys here; he'd never launch a personal attack. _ He's_ the guy that pulls the plug when it starts getting heated here.


----------



## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

It is not a personal attack Andy. I contacted them to see if it is different than here. I've been wiring for 40 years here. Last August I was in Alabama helping my brother wire his new place and I didn't find enough differences between here and there worth mentioning and to be honest I don't have a current copy of the code here and those differences may be code here now as well. Like Dan, I wouldn't consider touching the meter unless it appeared to be the last possible remedy to a serious problem.

When I stated the legal consequences here I thought that would be enough but you came back with the statute which tells me you still think pulling the meter is the best practice. Maybe your power company looks at it differently than ours and if they do I'll post that if they send me a reply.


----------



## Ghidrah (Oct 21, 2008)

My 1st sight of a ditch witch was in 1962 when the town began laying pipe past the road I lived on, I was totally amazed at how much ground it dug moved to the side. 

To add a little to herbs post, I was 11 or 12 when my uncle decided to run a water line from his house to his auto body shop out back. His proposal was if we dug a proper trench, (straight and to width and depth) then filled it back once the pipe was laid he'd give my cousin and me an old field car. It turned out to be a 1950 something chrysler coupe.


----------



## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Ghidrah said:


> My 1st sight of a ditch witch was in 1962 when the town began laying pipe past the road I lived on, I was totally amazed at how much ground it dug moved to the side.
> 
> To add a little to herbs post, I was 11 or 12 when my uncle decided to run a water line from his house to his auto body shop out back. His proposal was if we dug a proper trench, (straight and to width and depth) then filled it back once the pipe was laid he'd give my cousin and me an old field car. It turned out to be a 1950 something chrysler coupe.


In the early days of my back yard, I hand dug a number of trenches while installing the pvc parts of the watering system. I kind of enjoyed the process. 

Thinking of setting up a french drain system to take the water from the washing machine, but I turn 73 today and the ticker is letting me know that three or four hours of digging isn't in the cards. There are water lines all over my lot, so a ditch witch is probably not a good idea, so time to hire someone.


----------



## Ghidrah (Oct 21, 2008)

Our washing machine is in the basement, during the summer I switch the drain hose out for a sump pump hose, (thin walled corrugated) and run it outside into the back yd, the grade is a gentle slope away from the house so it's sort of an assist once it exits the house. I move the 20 foot hose around, it's not much but it helps, we're sort of droughty during the summer. If I were clever and not so cheap I might buy a raw water pump and figure a way to keep the flow clear of solids then water the entire yard


----------



## DonkeyHody (Jan 22, 2015)

Well, since this is just a friendly difference of opinion instead of an argument, I'll rejoin the conversation. 

I did a little research on my local power company's policies:
1. If a temporary generator is hooked to the house wiring, "The Customer shall supply a open and visible break verifiable by Company personnel. The location shall
be on the outside of the facility accessible to Company personnel at all hours. A main disconnect in the off position qualifies as an open break.
Failure to have a visible break is reason for being disconnected, and subjects Customer to liability for resulting injury to people or property." See Section 14.

http://www.entergy.com/Global/your_business/installation_standards/CIS.pdf

If I were installing a permanent standby generator, I would certainly install an automatic disconnect. They usually are included in a kit with the generator. However, consider the case if the electricity is already off and I want to install a temporary generator and hook it to my breaker panel. My main breaker is inside the utility room. Your insistence that turning off the main is enough won't won't suffice here. How will I provide that outdoor visible break? I'll pull the meter. 

2. "A licensed electrical contractor shall obtain approval prior to
removing any meter seal, or notify the Company after doing so under emergency circumstances." Same document as above, Section 9.2

OK, I'm not a licensed electrical contractor. So shoot me.

3. I found an interview in Transmission and Distribution Magazine with a Lineman who worked the Mississippi Gulf Coast after Hurricane Katrina. "When we were in the Loosedale (sic), Mississippi, area about 60 miles north of the coast, we heard generators quite a bit. There was less devastation there. All the generators we dealt with were hooked up correctly. While grounding is sufficient for safe working, my policy was to isolate them. If that meant pulling the meter, I pulled the meter. If it meant taking the transformer tap off-line, I did that and then grounded it. I want it isolated.”

They are understandably concerned for their own safety and don't trust piece of tape on a main breaker to provide that. 

4. I need for you to explain to me what's so dangerous about me pulling the meter. Remember that the power is off. That's why I'm hooking up a generator. Even if the power was on, the electricity on one side of the meter is the same as the other side. When I remove the cover on my main breaker panel, there are two hot lugs feeding the main breaker that remain hot when the breaker is off. And they have the same voltage and amperage available to them that the contacts in the meter base have. OK, you need to know what you're doing before you mess around with electricity. I've got that. But there's nothing magic about the upstream side of the meter until you get to the transformer. "After this, there be Dragons" . . .

5. As far as how the power company "feels" about a homeowner pulling the meter, of course they'll tell you not to do it if you ask them. Why don't you call your local electricians union and ask them how they "feel" about you doing your own wiring; or call your local plummers union and ask how they "feel" about you doing your own plumming. Oh, nevermind, I called them for you.

6. I have never worked as a licensed electrician, but I have participated in several hurricane cleanups in the Southeast including 3 months on the Mississippi Gulf Coast (ground zero) after Hurricane Katrina, and a month in North Carolina after Hurricane Fran and Baton Rouge after Hurricane Andrew. I can state with confidence that the power companies in my part of the country simply don't have the Draconian attitudes toward their customers that you describe. They are on a mission to get the power turned back on without getting hurt in the process; and they have bigger fish to fry than harassing a homeowner because he didn't play by the rules that applied before and after the disaster. 

7. We all are guilty of assuming that the rest of the world is like the part we know. But your credibility suffers when you say things I know aren't true, like "It's illegal for you . . ." Your credibility takes another hit when you speak in absolutes like "Only", "Never", and "Always". Now you folks have a nice day, and I'll promise not to pull an electric meter until the next major power outage. If you choose not to, I'll understand.


----------



## Ghidrah (Oct 21, 2008)

On the Cape up till the early - mid 90s most if not all old, (long established) house wiring electricians had their own keys to open meters, new Cos did not get them from the power providers any longer. Some of the younger guys inherited them from the original props. I had 2 Cos to open boxes and reattach them to the house when resideing. When the new rule was applied, a rep from the service provider had to be present to unlock the box, the electrician would release it from the house, then you had to go through that all over again to reattach it. Anyone have any idea how difficult it is to get both those individuals at the property at the same time??? 

The rational I heard was too many people just yank the box and often, one or more of the lags would contact and short a pole/s, (I admit I yanked too, but never happened to me and I never heard of it occurring to any of the other contractors I knew). I suggested prying and clamping the lags with spring clamps, he laughed. I did my last residing in the summer of 2000, we reshingled all but the area around the box, maybe 6 to 8 shingles then sat the rest of the day waiting. 2 days later both made it to the job. Neither would hang for more than 30 mins then bail if the other guy didn't show.

I've done some of my own wiring and replumbed my own house twice in 33 yrs. we've been through 3 water heaters and 2 ground water pumps. I've been asked by a few customers to do wiring and plumbing and turned it down, The slightest thing goes wrong and the odds of being sued is too great, the odds of me suing myself are pretty slim.


----------



## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Power Meter Pull - Electrical - DIY Chatroom Home Improvement Forum From another forum
How to Pull an Electric Meter: 12 Steps (with Pictures) First step in remopving meter is to get permission.
Easy Generator to Home Hook Up The right way to do it. No mention of pulling the meter.
Electrical Safety and Generators|Natural Disasters and Severe Weather From the CDC. Turn off main breaker. No mention of pulling meter.

Andy in all of these links it is suggested that you leave the meter alone. In analyzing your post: 
1. If a temporary generator is hooked to the house wiring, "The Customer shall supply a open and visible break verifiable by Company personnel. The location shall
be on the outside of the facility accessible to Company personnel at all hours. A main disconnect in the off position qualifies as an open break.
Failure to have a visible break is reason for being disconnected, and subjects Customer to liability for resulting injury to people or property." See Section 14.It says "main disconnect". Pulling the meter is not mentioned.

2. "A licensed electrical contractor shall obtain approval prior to
removing any meter seal, or notify the Company after doing so under emergency circumstances." Same document as above, Section 9.2 Andy you aren't licensed or talking about getting prior permission.

3. I found an interview in Transmission and Distribution Magazine with a Lineman who worked the Mississippi Gulf Coast after Hurricane Katrina. "When we were in the Loosedale (sic), Mississippi, area about 60 miles north of the coast, we heard generators quite a bit. There was less devastation there. All the generators we dealt with were hooked up correctly. While grounding is sufficient for safe working, my policy was to isolate them. If that meant pulling the meter, I pulled the meter. If it meant taking the transformer tap off-line, I did that and then grounded it. I want it isolated.”He's talking about pulling the meter, not having you do it.

4. I need for you to explain to me what's so dangerous about me pulling the meter. Remember that the power is off. That's why I'm hooking up a generator. Even if the power was on, the electricity on one side of the meter is the same as the other side. When I remove the cover on my main breaker panel, there are two hot lugs feeding the main breaker that remain hot when the breaker is off. And they have the same voltage and amperage available to them that the contacts in the meter base have. OK, you need to know what you're doing before you mess around with electricity. I've got that. But there's nothing magic about the upstream side of the meter until you get to the transformer. "After this, there be Dragons" . . The power is off when you remove it, but not when you replace it. Your main breaker section of the panel is shielded from the rest of the panel by a metal divider. This protects you from accidentally making contact with the live conductors going into the main breaker but if they are installed correctly the insulation on those wires will have only been peeled off enough to just fit into the breaker sockets. Still it's a necessary safety factor. It allows work on the rest of the panel without risk of electrocution. The meter base provides no such protection. If you re-insert the meter with plastic shielding the lugs, and ity's the wrong plastic and tears, then power goes back out to the grid. If you leave the meter off then it is an unshielded, open shock hazard of deadly proportion.

5. As far as how the power company "feels" about a homeowner pulling the meter, of course they'll tell you not to do it if you ask them. There are reasons for that. They have the right equipment and training to do the job without getting hurt or causing damage. No where in your post did anyone suggest that you pull the meter.

6. I have never worked as a licensed electrician, but I have participated in several hurricane cleanups in the Southeast including 3 months on the Mississippi Gulf Coast (ground zero) after Hurricane Katrina, and a month in North Carolina after Hurricane Fran and Baton Rouge after Hurricane Andrew. I can state with confidence that the power companies in my part of the country simply don't have the Draconian attitudes toward their customers that you describe. They are on a mission to get the power turned back on without getting hurt in the process; and they have bigger fish to fry than harassing a homeowner because he didn't play by the rules that applied before and after the disaster. You may be right about that. BC is one of the most safety conscious places on earth. I've been told by inspectors from WorkSafe BC that many safety authorities from all over North America have been up here to see what we were doing and many of the safety programs started here have been adopted elsewhere. And that is a good thing, not draconian. It saves lives and helps protect workers and the public from injury. I've worked in the oil patch here quite a bit and if you do a job you aren't trained and/or licensed for you are likely to be fired. It's part of their butt saving policy but it protects workers too. Last winter I worked on Conoco Phillips Surmont 2 project which is the world's largest SAGD facility now. They set a North American record (probably a world record) with over 1,000,000 man hours without a lost time injury. You get that by doing things the safest way it can possibly be done. According to what you posted that means installing a visible disconnect, not pulling the meter. I genuinely hope that your policy of pulling the meter doesn't wind up biting you in the rear end Andy, or worse yet someone elses. 

You and I have taken this thread sideways far enough. If you have something else to say PM me. I'm not posting anymore on the subject here. It was never my intention to get into a pissing match with you, it was my intent to suggest that pulling the meter was not the safest or best method available. I'm sorry it wound up degenerating to this.


----------



## DonkeyHody (Jan 22, 2015)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> You and I have taken this thread sideways far enough. If you have something else to say PM me. I'm not posting anymore on the subject here. It was never my intention to get into a pissing match with you, it was my intent to suggest that pulling the meter was not the safest or best method available. I'm sorry it wound up degenerating to this.


Agreed. We'll never convince each other, and everyone else lost interest long ago. Next time you're in Alabama, swing over this way and I'll buy dinner.


----------



## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

Well now that the dead horse is buried, I will say that I followed it all the way through and gained a lot of perspective on the subject. Thanks to you guys discussion a lot of good points were brought up on using emergency generators, 

My house that caught fire from a power surge was built in the late 60's and had a 60amp main breaker, on the main busses. On the same main busses were a 50 amp range breaker.and a 30 amp Dryer and a 30amp HW heater breakers.
The 60amp breaker fed the lower busses that had all the small 15 and 20 amp breakers for the house circuits.

There was no main breaker that shut off everything, just the lower buss.

There are a lot of houses right now that are wired way under legal code today.

On the farm we had a big knife switch for a main breaker and pennies behind the screw in fuses.

Herb


----------



## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

I remember doing the penny thing when fuses blew. Didn't think anything of it at the time.

HJ


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

honesttjohn said:


> I remember doing the penny thing when fuses blew. Didn't think anything of it at the time.
> 
> HJ



there are those that still do that and use copper tube for replacement buss fuses...


----------



## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

"We had a water well 65' deep and 5' in diam. that was hand dug too"
-Herb

How'd you get in and out? I'm picturing Young Herbert shinnying up a knotted rope...
Thank G*d for well drilling rigs!


----------



## old coasty (Aug 15, 2014)

Think OSHA would OK that without anything to keep it from caving in. In a previous teen age life I dug a 10 foot one, that looked like a funnel until the 3' diameter pipes were put in. It sure slowed down digging when it had to go into buckets, climb up, haul up the bucket, then go back down and start over with the next bucket.


----------



## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

"Think OSHA would OK that without anything to keep it from caving in..."
-Bob


First thing _I_ thought of; not enough money to get _me_ down there.


----------



## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

DaninVan said:


> "Think OSHA would OK that without anything to keep it from caving in..."
> -Bob
> 
> 
> First thing _I_ thought of; not enough money to get _me_ down there.


not a spelunker either I take it...


----------



## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

DaninVan said:


> "We had a water well 65' deep and 5' in diam. that was hand dug too"
> -Herb
> 
> How'd you get in and out? I'm picturing Young Herbert shinnying up a knotted rope...
> Thank G*d for well drilling rigs!


The 2 old Swedes who owned the farm before we bought it in 1940 dug the well. Then they erected a 2100 gal. wooden water tank on top and put a hand pump on the well and pumped the water up 25 feet into the tank. So the farm had gravity fed water. 
Young Herbert spent many hours on that pump pumping water into the tank. Until my Dad hooked up an electric piston pump to pump the water. But when the water level fell below 8" the pump lost it prime.

Later he put a jet pump on it, and that solved that problem , that was before the submersible pumps they have now. The jet pumped water down into the well to pump water out so it had 2 pipes one larger than the other going down into the well.
Herb


----------

