# Panel Bits Back Cutter or Not?



## CanuckGal (Nov 26, 2008)

I am buying a panel bit set but I see some have back cutters and some don't.  What are the advantages/disadvantages of the back cutter and would you recommend a panel bit with or without one? Just want to see what you guru's prefer.


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## levon (Sep 14, 2008)

hello Deb,

while you and i wait for a very informed answer, i will fill a minute or two. the main advantage i see is that if you are using the same thicknes material for the panel and rails and stiles is that with a back cutter the panel will be flush with the rails and stiles. to me just guessing, the disadvantage is that you are using one heck of a large and dangerous bit and it has to be used at slow speeds. i have a cmt raised panel set that i have yet to use. but i am thinking of getting a vertical panel bit before raising any panels.
bobj really recommends the vertical bit.


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## CanuckGal (Nov 26, 2008)

Somehow I find the vertical bit scarier then the flat one. Trying to hold a large panel upright while moving over that long bit seems dangerous. Of course I have never used either yet. I may be in for a rude awakening.


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## levon (Sep 14, 2008)

you would definitely need a tall fence or jig, but have you seen the size of the horizontal bit in person, its huge! i neglected to say in my post , you can use a separate bit to backcut the panel if you want it to be flat.


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## CanuckGal (Nov 26, 2008)

Does the back cutter make setup any more difficult?


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Deb

Just my 2 cents 

NO ,in fact it makes it essayer ...


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CanuckGal said:


> Does the back cutter make setup any more difficult?


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Deb

I just saw the picture of your son ,,CUTE KID  

=======


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## levon (Sep 14, 2008)

hi bobj,
you do recommend the vertical bit, right? if you do, my question is using the same thickness of material for rails, stiles and panels, do you usually use a separate backcutter when you want the panel flush or do you just use a thinner panel?


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## CanuckGal (Nov 26, 2008)

Bobj3
My son? I wish. Actually that is my spouse's (and mine by proxy ) grandson Kaydin. He loves the shop.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi levon

It can be done both ways..some like the panel to be flush on the inside and the outside of the cabinet door..but it's no big deal to just have flush on the outside of the door...most don't look inside the door anyway...just to get something out the norm..it's a great way to save a buck on real wood panels..

When the Vert.bit is use sometimes you don't have a true 1/4" it may have just a bit of a taper to it ,but aging it's not big deal as long it's not to long and trying to open the slot up at glue up time..

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levon said:


> hi bobj,
> you do recommend the vertical bit, right? if you do, my question is using the same thickness of material for rails, stiles and panels, do you usually use a separate backcutter when you want the panel flush or do you just use a thinner panel?


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Using an easily made tall fence like this with a vertical cutter is very simple and very safe. Over time some members have sniggered at my tall pink fence, but once you've used one you won't go back to a little one. I must hasten to add that the colour is unimportant!


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Harry

That's sweet  ,,I know it's hard to teach a old dog new tricks but you should give the horiz. table a go...it's so easy to make one and add it to your router table, then you don't need to hold the stock up on edge and try and keep it into the bit..


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harrysin said:


> Using an easily made tall fence like this with a vertical cutter is very simple and very safe. Over time some members have sniggered at my tall pink fence, but once you've used one you won't go back to a little one. I must hasten to add that the colour is unimportant!


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## CanuckGal (Nov 26, 2008)

I like the pink!


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

CanuckGal said:


> I like the pink!


So did the lady who owned this house before us, the fence and many other items have been made from material salvaged from the original kitchen.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

bobj3 said:


> Hi Harry
> 
> That's sweet  ,,I know it's hard to teach a old dog new tricks but you should give the horiz. table a go...it's so easy to make one and add it to your router table, then you don't need to hold the stock up on edge and try and keep it into the bit..
> 
> ...


Bob, it's difficult to argue with you on this one, but please realise that most members do not have the space or financial resources to have every desirable machine tool and I include myself here. In any case, keeping pressure on the panel downwards or towards the fence makes little if any difference to safety or physical effort, been there, done that!


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## derek willis (Jan 21, 2009)

I have a horizontal panel bit, and today I have been gluing-up the boards for a panelled door, so tomorrow i will post the pics of usage of a horzontal bit with back cutter, it is not difficult or scary, I use my router at it's lowest setting with a very slow feed rate and all is very well. I have just cut the rails and the stiles ready for assembly when I have fielded the panel in the morning.
I also have a vertical panel raising bit, a very high fence, and I use a jig to feed the boards through the cutter, but I prefer the one with the back-cutter.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Bob was of course advocating using a horizontal router table, that is where the router sticks out horizontally as shown in Bj's pics of the TWO that he has made.


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## derek willis (Jan 21, 2009)

Harry,
I don't think I'd like that set up with a back cutter.


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## Ralph Barker (Dec 15, 2008)

FWIW, I prefer the concept of the vertical raised-panel bits. The smaller diameter of the cutters takes less HP to drive, I'd think, leaving more of the HP to actually make the cut. 

A tall fence would be essential, but I think I'll make mine from manly green phenolic ply. 

I'd also suggest the use of finger boards (both infeed and outfeed) at the table surface to help keep the stock tight against the fence. A jig could also be made to position finger boards above the table surface, but that seems easy (and safe) enough to do by hand.

I'd do any back-cut necessary as a separate operation.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

HI Harry

You are right on 
That's the neat thing about having two or to say one with both setups in one cabinet,,a real space saver,they are cheap to make and it's so much safer to use..
The back cutter is one item that is not needed many times, I have about 20 or so of the horizontal panel bits and they are all just a bit hairy to use,I have some with the two bearing setup on them and makes the job a little bit safer but no matter how you cut it they are hairy for most to use,,,it's something about a 3 5/8" bit spinning at 8,000 rpm's that most don't like..it's true you can't get by without one if you are making some of the arched panel doors..

Many are now selecting the shaker type look and the standard table setup is the one for that job,,,some 7/32" plywood for the panel and you have it done in no time..but the raise panel type panel for the shaker panel is a easy one to make..with the horz.table..all on one table setup...not to say anything about making molding on one, duck soup thing without the need for any jigs..almost all molding bits are vert.type bits,that's to say the stock must be run by the bit on it's edge..on a standard table.,,,.here's one for you Harry,, the vert. bits are great as a plunge bit for making boxes,clocks,etc. take a hard look at the bits, it's a big Runder Over,Round over with a bead,etc, bit the norm that will plunge in... some of the CMT bits are bigger ( 1 1/8" to 1 1/2" OD ) and are great for removing tons of stock and they are longer than the norm..


The best of two worlds 

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harrysin said:


> Bob was of course advocating using a horizontal router table, that is where the router sticks out horizontally as shown in Bj's pics of the TWO that he has made.


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## Handidad (Dec 31, 2008)

Harry,
Have you posted the directions for your pink fence? I'd be interested in seeing the details.


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## CanuckGal (Nov 26, 2008)

So if I am reading this right, you all agree the vertical bits are better/easier then the horizontal bits? I have been watching some videos of folks using the horizontal bits and you can really hear how hard the router has to work. Looks like most make the cuts in one or two passes at the most. Would it be better to make shallower cuts and make three or more passes? Does this apply to vertical bits as well? I haven't seen any videos with the vertical bits yet.
I imagine if you are doing a lot of panels, more cuts would be a time issue. I am far more concerned about safety then time.


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## Charles M (Apr 10, 2006)

CanuckGal said:


> So if I am reading this right, you all agree the vertical bits are better/easier then the horizontal bits? I have been watching some videos of folks using the horizontal bits and you can really hear how hard the router has to work. Looks like most make the cuts in one or two passes at the most. Would it be better to make shallower cuts and make three or more passes? Does this apply to vertical bits as well? I haven't seen any videos with the vertical bits yet.
> I imagine if you are doing a lot of panels, more cuts would be a time issue. I am far more concerned about safety then time.


I am a dissenter on the vertical bits vs horizontal. The horizontal produces MUCH smoother profiles. In regards to the back cutter question maybe this will help:

There are essentially four types of raised panel bits

1. Vertical bits are small in diameter and are best for under powered routers and those that do not have variable speed. They are designed to make a full profile with 1/4" tongue in 3/4" stock. The panel will be recessed in the back and will protrude from the frame in the front.

2. Horizontal raised panel bits for 3/4" stock are also designed to make a full profile with 1/4" tongue in 3/4" stock. The panel will be recessed in the back and will protrude from the frame in the front.

3. Horizontal raised panel bits for 5/8" stock are designed to make a full profile with 1/4" tongue in 5/8" stock. The panel will be recessed in the back and will be coplanar with the frame in the front. These can also be used with a separate back cut to make panels that are coplanar with the frame in the back and the front.

4. Horizontal raised panel bits with back cutters are designed to make a full profile with 1/4" tongue in 3/4" stock. The panel will be coplanar with the frame in the back and the front. The tongue will also be a consistent thickness.

Using a raised panel bit in stock thickness other than the intended will usually result in profiles that are undesirable. One exception to this is the cove profile which can be varied to allow for different thicknesses while maintaining the look of the profile but changing the reveal (width of the profile).


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Deb

Here's a video 


http://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/smarthtml/pages/horizontal_router_table.html

I think the Vert. bits are safer and easier,it's always best to make one clean cut to put on that sharp edge on,then hog out the wood with a 2nd pass and then one more for that nice clean cut, but I will say the big is made to do it all in one pass..the big panel bits do pull a ton of stock out so it best to do it in 2 passes or more, the one with the back cutter is working just as hard as the front one,,,I do use a over size bearing on the ones I have it makes it a bit safer and not as hard on the router..  and to do the dippsy around the bit on arche panels 

bearing below
http://www.sommerfeldtools.com/prodinfo.asp?number=HC318DZZ

the pictures below, all done with a vert.bits


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CanuckGal said:


> So if I am reading this right, you all agree the vertical bits are better/easier then the horizontal bits? I have been watching some videos of folks using the horizontal bits and you can really hear how hard the router has to work. Looks like most make the cuts in one or two passes at the most. Would it be better to make shallower cuts and make three or more passes? Does this apply to vertical bits as well? I haven't seen any videos with the vertical bits yet.
> I imagine if you are doing a lot of panels, more cuts would be a time issue. I am far more concerned about safety then time.


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## Ralph Barker (Dec 15, 2008)

Charles M said:


> I am a dissenter on the vertical bits vs horizontal. The horizontal produces MUCH smoother profiles. In regards to the back cutter question maybe this will help:
> 
> There are essentially four types of raised panel bits
> 
> 1. Vertical bits are small in diameter and are best for under powered routers and those that do not have variable speed. . . .


Dissent is good, particularly coming from a good source.

What HP rating do you suggest as the minimum for the 3 1/2" bits, Charles, and does that change based on the wood species being worked?

The Freud FAQ says 12,000 RPM for these bits. I assume you agree with that recommendation?


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## CanuckGal (Nov 26, 2008)

That was very helpful information Charles. Thanks.
Am I correct in assuming that if one is using a panel bit with a back cutter, you have to make the cut in one pass? I cannot visualize any other way but I may be wrong.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Handidad said:


> Harry,
> Have you posted the directions for your pink fence? I'd be interested in seeing the details.


These three shots should make it clear. The cast iron top has threaded holes and the bottom of the fence slots, this makes adjustment very fast, much better in my opinion than clamps. With a wooden table just fit T nuts and the size to suit your table. Note the two rows of threaded hole which are about two inches apart together with the slots give a wide range of adjustment.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

HI Deb

Just one more thing to buy 

" I cannot visualize any other way"
Get the video below,, and Marc will show you how to do it the easy way and the safe way.

it's only 10.oo dollars and worth every dime... 
http://www.sommerfeldtools.com/prodinfo.asp?number=DVD1

It will blow your mind how easy it is once you know the tricks 

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CanuckGal said:


> That was very helpful information Charles. Thanks.
> Am I correct in assuming that if one is using a panel bit with a back cutter, you have to make the cut in one pass? I cannot visualize any other way but I may be wrong.


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## CanuckGal (Nov 26, 2008)

I like the idea of the horizontal router using vertical panel bits. Maybe one day I'll get to that. 
I was at HD today dishwasher shopping a looked at the vertical and horizontal panel bits. YIKES they are both HUGE. My 1" dado bit spinning up scares me. Making panels with a 3 1/8" panel bit should be real nerve wracking. But I'm going to give it a go. 
I found this Freud link which explained about making two passes. So now it makes more sense. 
I have the OP video for raised panels. Can't get much simpler then that. But I will get the Sommerfield video so I can see if there are any other "tricks". 
Thanks for all your help and answering all my questions folks. Much appreciated!


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Deb

I forgot you have the OP jig to make panels, you will need to get a panel cutter that is 2 1/2" in diam. so you can use the jig or you can buy one from OP..but I think they dropped the bit... it may take a phone call to make sure..if I recall it was 83.oo to 87.oo dollars ..for the one bit.

Almost for got I have a set from Rockler that has a small panel bit ( 2 1/2" OD) 130.oo for that set.
http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=5722&filter=panel bit set
Now 154.oo ,,keep going up and up 


I have the set below and it's great set 
http://www.sommerfeldtools.com/prodinfo.asp?number=03002

not recommend because of the 1/4" shank  ▼
http://cgi.ebay.com/2-pc-1-4-SH-Cov...50386QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742.m153.l1262


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CanuckGal said:


> I like the idea of the horizontal router using vertical panel bits. Maybe one day I'll get to that.
> I was at HD today dishwasher shopping a looked at the vertical and horizontal panel bits. YIKES they are both HUGE. My 1" dado bit spinning up scares me. Making panels with a 3 1/8" panel bit should be real nerve wracking. But I'm going to give it a go.
> I found this Freud link which explained about making two passes. So now it makes more sense.
> I have the OP video for raised panels. Can't get much simpler then that. But I will get the Sommerfield video so I can see if there are any other "tricks".
> Thanks for all your help and answering all my questions folks. Much appreciated!


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## CanuckGal (Nov 26, 2008)

Bobj3 I double checked the jig, it will take a 3 1/8" bit (may need the bit of sanding you suggested). I don't know about using the fence with a back cutter??? May have to make my own. I think if I flip the fence around it can use a 2 1/2" panel bit. Looks like it will do both. I ordered the 3 1/8" set so I hope it's going to fit.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Deb

It's no big deal you may need to make a new fence for the OP jig,,or just open it up on one side..if I recall on one side it's set for the R & P bit and the other side is setup for the panel bit..it's neat jig because it just snaps into place BUT they use a one piece R & P bit..that was a bit strange, I have one like it but it has a bearing on it unlike the one for the OP setup..I should note that same bit can be had at Grizzly...with the bearing. 

http://www.grizzly.com/products/c1689
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CanuckGal said:


> Bobj3 I double checked the jig, it will take a 3 1/8" bit (may need the bit of sanding you suggested). I don't know about using the fence with a back cutter??? May have to make my own. I think if I flip the fence around it can use a 2 1/2" panel bit. Looks like it will do both. I ordered the 3 1/8" set so I hope it's going to fit.


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## derek willis (Jan 21, 2009)

The Freud post says it all. I have a Freud Diablo door set, and one pass at low speed,(10,000) or less and a slow feed makes a very clean cut with no extra finishing neccessary, designed to use 3/4" stock, and complete with backcutter, leaving a 1/4" tongue that fits perfectly into the rail and stile, in about an hour I will be cutting the panel that I glued up yesterday,(using my panel cauls), and will be posting the result later today.


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## derek willis (Jan 21, 2009)

Last year I made 22 door and 8 drawer fronts for a client, I have been asked to make one more door to match for a new cupboard, here it is, all in European Oak and finished with Rustins Plastic Coating.


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## derek willis (Jan 21, 2009)

Sorry, I missed a few, here thay are.


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## CanuckGal (Nov 26, 2008)

Nice work Derek. I like your jig for the vertical raised panel bit. Now THAT looks safe!


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## Charles M (Apr 10, 2006)

Ralph Barker said:


> Dissent is good, particularly coming from a good source.
> 
> What HP rating do you suggest as the minimum for the 3 1/2" bits, Charles, and does that change based on the wood species being worked?
> 
> The Freud FAQ says 12,000 RPM for these bits. I assume you agree with that recommendation?


Ralph,

12,000 is the max recommended RPM for Freud 3-1/2" bits. For power recommendations you need to consult the router manufacturer. The Freud FT1700 with 2-1/4HP will handle them, although less material can be removed in each pass than with the 3-1/4HP FT3000 and FT2200.


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## Charles M (Apr 10, 2006)

CanuckGal said:


> That was very helpful information Charles. Thanks.
> Am I correct in assuming that if one is using a panel bit with a back cutter, you have to make the cut in one pass? I cannot visualize any other way but I may be wrong.


Deb,

Most RPw/BC bits come with extra bearings to make multiple passes. The Freud versions have solid pilots instead of ball bearings to increase the profile width. To make multiple passes with ours you either use the fence to control the width of cut or you can remove the backcutter and lower the bit a little for the first pass or two, raise to final height and make a pass, then reinstall the back cutter for the final pass. That said, Freud 3-1/2" diameter Raised Panel bits can be used to make full profile cuts in one pass with Freud FT3000VCE or FT2200E 3-1/4HP routers. Many feel this is too intimidating and choose to make multiple passes instead.


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## CanuckGal (Nov 26, 2008)

Charles, I only have a 2 HP router so multiple passes will be necessary. You explanation above clarifies a lot of things for me. Lowering the bit for the first couple of passes makes sense. 
I will definitely be making a couple of "practice" doors first.
I saw the Freud panel sets (3 bits) at HD for 159.00. That was actually the best price I have seen for them so far in Canada. I'm adding them to my "wish list".


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## Bogydave (Nov 14, 2008)

Deb
I got advice from bj & bought the vertical bit for the raised panel. 
Main reason is I only have a 2-1/4hp router, & it does not require as much HP as the horizontal bits. If you want/need a back cut, you will have to do it after you do the raised panel side with a dado bit etc.
I used a straight 2" thick board as a guide clamped to the top. I sandwiched the panel between the fence & the guide. This way seemed very safe to me, the bit is well hidden between the fence, guide & is cutting on the fence side as you push it through. Almost impossible to get near the bit. I made a total of 4 passes on all 4 edges, 1st 3 passes getting close & the last pass, removing very little so it would come out smooth (the type of wood & how it machines determines how much to take on each pass).
Back cut :


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## levon (Sep 14, 2008)

Dave, you never did say if you back cut the panel? and could you post a pic after the door is together fo us rookies?

ps i dont mind what the back of the door looks like, but it sure looks cheap for the panel to be 1/4 inch proud of the frame. i really want to use the vertical bit, bit it HAS to be backcut! or am i missing something??


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## CanuckGal (Nov 26, 2008)

Yikes now it sounds like I need a new bigger/better/stronger router. I of course am not opposed to this. The spouse however would disagree LOUDLY!
Dave your setup looks reasonably safe. If I go with a vertical bit I will try it.
I am going to give the horizontal bits a try with my current router. If it fails miserably, I will try the vertical bit with a safe guard jig. If that fails I WILL buy a new router. 
The doors I am making are for a closet so I am not using anything fancy, probably just cedar or pine. I am also making some cabinets for the laundry room, but that will probably just be MDF. Having to buy a new dishwasher has moved this project to the back burner for a couple of weeks. But that will give me some practice time.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

HI Deb

I'm not sure if I should show you this or not,,, 

I don't want to knock you off your track,,but you don't need to use panel bits to make a nice cabinets for the laundry room..,all with one bit more or less and a template..just some MDF/plywood to make the box and some pine/poplar for the frame to hold the doors and some MDF for the doors..

Some pocket hole screws and about 2 hours or so and you have them done and ready to paint and hang.
The bit to do it with ▼
http://www.grizzly.com/products/c1674
http://www.grizzly.com/products/c1681


Note Deb ,, I did add a snapshot of a corner cabinet I made at the same time..made the same way as the other..

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CanuckGal said:


> Yikes now it sounds like I need a new bigger/better/stronger router. I of course am not opposed to this. The spouse however would disagree LOUDLY!
> Dave your setup looks reasonably safe. If I go with a vertical bit I will try it.
> I am going to give the horizontal bits a try with my current router. If it fails miserably, I will try the vertical bit with a safe guard jig. If that fails I WILL buy a new router.
> The doors I am making are for a closet so I am not using anything fancy, probably just cedar or pine. I am also making some cabinets for the laundry room, but that will probably just be MDF. Having to buy a new dishwasher has moved this project to the back burner for a couple of weeks. But that will give me some practice time.


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## dovetail_65 (Jan 22, 2008)

That is fine Bob but nowhere near the quality, craftsmanship and not nearly as nice looking as a true raised panel.

To me the laundry room is the best place ever to make your first raised panel doors and cabinets or just for practice. After that experience one could be ready to tackle a kitchen.

I have a problem with MDF if a laundry room where there is so much water and moisture, especially if floor cabinets are going to be in there.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Nick

Once the MDF is painted and seal that's it it's seal and it will last a long time  that's why many of the cabinet shop use it for the bath rooms and laundry it's easy to wipe it down and keep clean,most cabinets in the laundry are 3" up off the floor the norn..or to say on a 3" base frame.../toe kick...just in case..  

I think a simple cabinet is the best way to learn how to get the job done then the kitchen or other cabinets, it's like making cabinets for the shop a great way to get it down.. 

Wood working the Art of fixing errors 


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nickao65 said:


> That is fine Bob but nowhere near the quality, craftsmanship and not nearly as nice looking as a true raised panel.
> 
> To me the laundry room is the best place ever to make your first raised panel doors and cabinets or just for practice. After that experience one could be ready to tackle a kitchen.
> 
> I have a problem with MDF if a laundry room where there is so much water and moisture, especially if floor cabinets are going to be in there.


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## CanuckGal (Nov 26, 2008)

Bob those are the exact cabinets I am after for the laundry room! I wasn't planning on making raised panel doors out of MDF. But yes that little detail on those cabinets is perfect. 
I thought about the moisture thing with MDF but they will be painted inside and out and I will probably use bathroom mildew resistant paint on them just to be sure. None of the cabinets will be on the floor. There will be 4 above the washer/dryer, and 4 on an adjacent wall with shelving below and fold down folding table. It's a good starter project before I tackle the closets which will be made out of Baltic Birch ply and Cedar or Pine. (I'm leaning toward cedar, the spouse wants oak or maple, I figure we'll probably compromise with pine...lol).


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## levon (Sep 14, 2008)

im stiil in the learning process on raised panel doors. but imho, even if the cabinets are real plywood, in the case of a leak, they will be damaged too. it seems to me moisture in the air would take a long time to do damage. by then you may want new cabinets,lol. 
warning, the views expressed here are just my opinion.


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## dovetail_65 (Jan 22, 2008)

Different strokes for different folks. I hate MDF and you can get Poplar if you shop around for darn near the same cost. Then you can have a wood rail to put the hinges on or into.

The MDF cabinets that the cabinet shops I have worked at ordered the MDF doors and they came with a super finish only huge factories could put on. We never made MDF cabinet doors ourselves becasue it was cheaper in the long run and the doors were finished way better by just ordering them. We did make wood doors. And we always made the carcasses out of ply.

Under no circumstance would I ever use MDF for a carcass.

I hate the dust mdf makes, I hate the way it acts on my cutters, I hate the weight and I hate that if I spit on an edge it swells. I also hate the way it breaks when it does break. MDF is great for many things I just do not like it for cabinets at all. This is my personal opinion. I have used it many, many times and will not again. I am a wood guy.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Nick 

Different strokes for different folks , right on 

MDF works great for making panel doors and cabinets ,the frame way...that's to say a panel frames for the sides and the front parts and 1/4" for the back ,but not the face frame..if you use the T & G way it holds up great..

But you must use a good vac system because of the MDF dust..but other than that it great stuff ..it's always flat and true and you can use all of it,no grain ...

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nickao65 said:


> Different strokes for differnt folks. I hate MDF and you can get Poplar if you shop around for darn near the same cost. Than you can have a wood rail to put the hinges on or into.
> 
> The MDF cabinets that the cabinet shops I have worked at ordered the MDF doors and they came with a super finish only huge factories could put on. We never made MDF cabinet doors ourselves becasue it was cheaper in the long run and the doors were finished way better by just ordering them. We did make wood doors. And we always made the carcasses out of ply.
> 
> ...


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## CanuckGal (Nov 26, 2008)

Bob do you have any pictures of that construction method you describe?


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Deb

More stuff to buy 

http://www.sommerfeldtools.com/prodinfo.asp?number=DVD4


if you can swing it, this one you will be glad you did 
http://www.sommerfeldtools.com/prodinfo.asp?number=DVD7PK


http://www.sommerfeldtools.com/products.asp?dept=4

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CanuckGal said:


> Bob do you have any pictures of that construction method you describe?


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## CanuckGal (Nov 26, 2008)

I don't know what will be bigger. My tool collection or my video collection. 
Do they ship to Canada? I can't find anything about shipping on their site.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

I just have to add my two penny worth. I have never seen a laundry room with raised panel doors, the steam will cause the panels to expand and then contract when dry causing the paint to crack around the panel. Years ago I made a large bathroom cabinet out of MDF and spray painted it. When we sold the house the cabinet was like the day I made it, possibly shinier because of all the polishing my wife had done!
Raised panel doors made from real wood are great, but I don't think so in laundry or bathrooms.


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## Charles M (Apr 10, 2006)

CanuckGal said:


> I don't know what will be bigger. My tool collection or my video collection.
> Do they ship to Canada? I can't find anything about shipping on their site.


How about free video:
http://freud.ca/English/Pages/Videos/Videos2.html


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

HI Deb ( Dep)

Not to sure about that one but a free call would give you the info you need.

But I think Peach ships to Canada they also sale the videos but at a higher price.

http://www.sommerfeldtools.com/st_contact_us.asp
Toll Free: 1-888-228-9268
Tel: (712) 786-2717
Fax: (712) 786-2770


http://www.ptreeusa.com/woodworking_videos.htm

http://www.ptreeusa.com/shipping_information.htm


But do get the videos , you can play them in slow or pause them and watch them at anytime, I review them all the time, I can't tell you how many time I have watched them over the last 3 years but I have two of them on the table right now  I pickup something new every to I view them,it's hard to remember all that's on the video at one time.. 

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CanuckGal said:


> I don't know what will be bigger. My tool collection or my video collection.
> Do they ship to Canada? I can't find anything about shipping on their site.


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## istracpsboss (Sep 14, 2008)

Charles M said:


> How about free video:
> http://freud.ca/English/Pages/Videos/Videos2.html


Hi Charles

Are those downloadable from anywhere for viewing offline, please? We've just moved and won't have ADSL again for a couple of weeks, so viewing them with a wireless card isn't fast enough. If I can download them and save them I can view them offline directly from the stored files.

Cheers

Peter


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## Charles M (Apr 10, 2006)

Hi Peter,

That's on Freud Canada's site so I haven't explored if there is a way to download them. As far as I know they have them setup for streaming only.


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## dovetail_65 (Jan 22, 2008)

Absolutely not true!

Mdf does not always stay flat. I have had many a sheet warp when not stored properly flat. 

I have removed MDF from kitchen that was so warped it was permanently shaped in a U.

I have MDF crown in my house and it shrinks and swells just like wood does.

I guess somethings are just not for me Bob.

Jigs are great out of MDF.

I would use MDF for the center panel ONLY with real wood for the rail and stiles.


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## dovetail_65 (Jan 22, 2008)

harrysin said:


> I just have to add my two penny worth. I have never seen a laundry room with raised panel doors, the steam will cause the panels to expand and then contract when dry causing the paint to crack around the panel. Years ago I made a large bathroom cabinet out of MDF and spray painted it. When we sold the house the cabinet was like the day I made it, possibly shinier because of all the polishing my wife had done!
> Raised panel doors made from real wood are great, but I don't think so in laundry or bathrooms.


Harry around here not only do the laundry rooms have raised panel doors, but refrigerators and television sets, I even worked on one with its own bathroom!

I do not agree that Raised panel wood is not good for laundry rooms. Many, many bathrooms(Actually 90% of all that I work have worked on) have raised panel doors for the vanities and a hot shower produces more moisture than most laundry rooms.

For the people that think MDF does not react like wood from moisture, it does. It contracts, it expands just like wood. The raised panel and cope and stile construction is meant to deal with it, so to me its not an issue.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

HI Nick

Water always runs down hill,, right into the joints of a raised panel door unlike a flat MDF one.. , you can wipe the MDF door off but you can't wipe the water out of the panel joints,,in short order the joint will fail,most glues are water base and most use that type of glue for the joints.

I will agree the raise panel doors look better but for how long,,great way to get some fire wood after a shower or two.. 

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nickao65 said:


> Harry around here not only do the laundry rooms have raised panel doors, but refrigerators and television sets, I even worked on one with its own bathroom!
> 
> I do not agree that Raised panel wood is not good for laundry rooms. Many, many bathrooms(Actually 90% of all that I work have worked on) have raised panel doors for the vanities and a hot shower produces more moisture than most laundry rooms.
> 
> For the people that think MDF does not react like wood from moisture, it does. It contracts, it expands just like wood. The raised panel and cope and stile construction is meant to deal with it, so to me its not an issue.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Peter

What you see on the computer screen can be copied with the right software  it's not to high in price,, you can find tons of it on the Net..

It will let you copy any format, what you see is what you get. the norm.


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istracpsboss said:


> Hi Charles
> 
> Are those downloadable from anywhere for viewing offline, please? We've just moved and won't have ADSL again for a couple of weeks, so viewing them with a wireless card isn't fast enough. If I can download them and save them I can view them offline directly from the stored files.
> 
> ...


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## dovetail_65 (Jan 22, 2008)

bobj3 said:


> HI Nick
> 
> Water always runs down hill,, right into the joints of a raised panel door unlike a flat MDF one.. , you can wipe the MDF door off but you can't wipe the water out of the panel joints,,in short order the joint will fail,most glues are water base and most use that type of glue for the joints.
> 
> ...


Bob I have worked with raised panels over 200 years old. It is a great, sure fire, tested, tried an true method.

After getting wet the panels always settle out and I think you even said that not that much water was not going to get on them.

I would take real wood raised panel in rainstorm over MDF any day!


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Deb

If you go with the MDF doors, here's just some of the neat stuff you can do with it..

How to use MDF for panel doors

Faux Raised Panel Router Bits
Mitered Door Frame Router Bits
see video on the same web page

http://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/smarthtml/pages/raised_panel_router_bits2.html

http://www.grizzly.com/catalog/2009/Main/465

http://www.routerforums.com/cnc-routing/5870-3d-router-carving.html

The clock below was made with 100% MDF,less the glass and clock 



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## CanuckGal (Nov 26, 2008)

Charles THANKS! for the video links. Much appreciated. I need to spend more time exploring the Freud site. 
Bob and Nick I am paying close attention to your discussion. As I said I wasn't planing to maked raised panel doors out of MDF, I just wanted some simple cabinets for the laundry room. I figured MDF would be easy and cheap, but no reason not to add some detail to them to make them look nice.
We have oak panel doors in the upper bath in our house. I have to tell you I have had to oil these doors (Liquid Gold) several times as they are DRY as a bone. Same with our kitchen cabinets. We have no exhaust vent in either bathroom or laundry room so you would think moisture might be a problem but it's not. I attribute that to the fact that we have an indoor hot tub and we have a Heat Ventilation Recovery system installed to prevent moisture buildup indoors. But it does have a tendency to dry things out a bit too much.  It's a finicky thing to set. We have a lot of oak trim and wood work including real wood parquet floors in the house so I shut the darn thing off every now and then just to stop things from drying out. I have to reglue floor pieces constantly as they dry, shrink and lift. 
I tend to agree that large amounts or continuous drips or leaks of water will ruin any wood. I don't think I would use MDF in an area that didn't have proper humidity control. I could see bad things happening very quickly.
I'm adding some pics of our cabinets and the laundry room so you can get an idea of where I am headed with this project. As usual ALL suggestions are WELCOME!
The white cabinets are in the downstairs bath adjacent to the laundry room.
NOTE: NO I did not make or install any of these cabinets, they came with the house


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## CanuckGal (Nov 26, 2008)

Bob lets just start with something simple eh? LOL


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Deb

You would be amaze how simple it is to do that..just drop the router in the template and it's done in no time. the one I posted took less then 2 mins. to make  (door panel)

http://www.acetoolonline.com/CMT-3D-Router-Carver-System-s/4402.htm
http://www.acetoolonline.com/category-s/4416.htm

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CanuckGal said:


> Bob lets just start with something simple eh? LOL


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