# Rot replasement



## Tiny (Aug 12, 2012)

Hello everybody!
For a starter to everyone who hasn't red my profile, I know the right answer to what is the right way to repair windows.
Last week I created myself a profile to LinkedIn just to get more visibility as a entrepreneure. I joined two groops which of i didn't know anything before I joined them. Since the name of the group was something like "Special restoration" I thought that would suite me. Then I went to look what they discuse and a gott shocked. As the name of the group insisted I really was both surprised and speechless. I could not understand that a group can call them self with that name and use epoxy in old and even historic buildings. After that I've tried to find something from the net about rott fix with wood but I can't. 
Please help me out of this pain and tell me ... (Corect my thoughts) about your restoration methods.
Everything I have learned and seen in Finland and Norway is not to use epoxy or any other, exept PVCa glue, artificial products in restoration work. How do you repair or restore windows? Shure epoxy is good (with Corvettes) stuff but not with wood!
What do you call a Professional like me who uses only wood in repairing or restoring wooden items? Something else than -left behinder.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

"Something else than -left behinder." lol

Esko; there's obviously some issues with restoration of antiques, vis-a-vis their authenticity, but do the same rules apply to building restoration?
N. America seems to be somewhat more relaxed on the subject. This is the first time I've seen the issue of epoxy not being authentic enough, when repairing wood windows(?).
We are talking about the very low viscosity, totally clear liquid which absorbs into the fibres aren't we?


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## Tiny (Aug 12, 2012)

Hi Dan, For me (meaning what we learn about restauring and wood as a construction and building material in Finland and Scandivinavia) the question is not about authenticity but about durability vs. rot of the wood. We're taught (and physically it does really make sense!) that the most important thing in the wooden sructures is the through permeability of the material. Wood in itself is a permeable material; the evaporation of the warm air inside the house (the humidity is always present, at least in the environment where the air outside the building is considrably colder ie. less humid than inside) penetrates the wood, gradually passes through the cell structure of it, passes through the so called "breathing" wall papers, paints etc. and finally enters the "outside air". Now, if we stop the natural route of the moisture, it still will penetrate the wooden structures but gets blocked by something non-permeable like epoxy. The result will be that the humidity on the warm / humid / inside face of the non-permeable material rises continuosly, creating optimal circumstaces for fungi etc. leading to rapid detrementation and rot of the wooden structures. 
I've studied three years of which the philosophy of restauration of wooden buildings and wood itself and how to use wood etc. was the majority of that 3 yrs.


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## Tiny (Aug 12, 2012)

"We are talking about the very low viscosity, totally clear liquid which absorbs into the fibres aren't we?"

I really don't know...


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## OPG3 (Jan 9, 2011)

Tiny, 

Let me first say I've never been to Finland or to anywhere with temperatures such as you are often exposed to...So I have a question - but it is only a question!

How old is the rotten wood? I ask this because as I am sure you already know; there are a lot of other factors beyond simply being "wood" that need to be considered in answering your question.

Will the finished product be painted?...or will it be stained?

Is it a part of the window that houses glass?

Is/are the part/parts going to be on the interior or the exterior, or is there some of both?

Here's why I suggest having all of these answers. If the part is to be painted, you have much more freedom with your material choices than if the wood will be stained and needs to match color, shade and grain pattern within reason.

If the part houses glass, there may need to be special allowances made (dimensionally) in order that expansion and contraction (due to seasonal changes) doesn't pose additional stresses.

How old is the wood being replaced? Let's say window wood lasts 5 years in your environment - I would say you need a more durable material than _that type_ of wood. If it took 20 - 30 or more years (the word "historic" makes this come-to-mind) for the rot to occur, I would think that a structurally-sound epoxy repair that provides owner-approved appearance *MIGHT* be a good choice.

It seems to me that this may be a great time to sit-down with your customer and explain what you can and cannot do and the pricing for each method. 35 years ago, I learned a lesson in a very expensive way - and my personal expense was HUGE. I will try to parallel this to what I believe your current situation to also now be. 

My situation 35 years ago: I owned a small construction company. A conscientious contractor had built 28 houses along both sides of a single street. A material salesman convinced him that if "his brand" of waterproofing was utilized, there would be no need for an exterior drain pipe. I was in no way involved in that new construction process.

Within a year, I got a call to come-out and place a bid to repair all 28 leaking basements. I gave a fair price for the work, the builder assured me he was going to pay for all of the work, but he said my price was more than he could afford - so I left. I never expected him to call me back. A couple of weeks later, he called me back and wanted me to meet with him on that street at one of the houses. THE SAME material salesman was there! Since I had nothing to do with the new construction a year earlier, I was not (then) aware it was the same idiot. That guy went into some long story about "his solution to the problem". I refused to do the work - I felt it would not work and I even pointed-out that doing it used two materials in VIOLATION OF WARRANTY REQUIREMENTS! Again, I left hoping to never hear back from either of them!

Another few weeks went by and my phone again rings with more calls and the salesman begged me to do the work. I told him that I could not do the work because I had no expectation of the work to perform as he insisted. He gave me every kind of assurrance, he even had his boss come-out and insist it would work and he had the owner come-out and hear everyone tell how great this would be.

HERE'S WHERE I SCREWED-UP: I should not have trusted the lying, good-for-nothing material salesman - because this "got the monkey off his back" and "put the monkey on my back". I was raised to be honest and keep my word, my handshake is as good as a written contract - BUT THERE ARE MANY PEOPLE THAT DO NOT WORK THIS WAY! I worked on 28 houses and was paid promptly by the builder for very low bid amounts. The big problem is that I had been talked into personal guarantees of all of the 28- basements being dry in order to cash the checks! Well, everyone of those houses (LATER) got a correct waterproofing repair - AT MY EXPENSE! Joy is an angel for not leaving me during this terrible financial time!

Now, Tiny my friend, here's how I see your side of this "playing out"...By your answer to Dan's question [above] it makes me guess that you haven't used this method in this application in this scenario before now. If I am wrong, I sincerely apologize! Let's say you call the guy that sells the epoxy for the window repair. I know nothing about this person - okay? But he is quite likely expected to PROMOTE THE PRODUCT. He WANTS TO SELL YOU THE PRODUCT! Remember, I cannot speak for the person you will be working with - but there is a chance that you may be told something that is either not true or highly unlikely. 

Here's the repurcussion. Let's say this ends-up being a faster and easier way for you to get your work done. You may then, bid the project for less money - TRYING TO BE HELPFUL TO THE OWNER (exactly what I did). What will happen if the product fails? Who will be there to stand behind it? If you're the one that did the work - MOST LIKELY YOU WILL ALSO GET THE BLAME.

Tiny - I hope this information gives you some good food for thought,
Otis Guillebeau from Auburn, Georgia


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

Hi Esko. I don't get involved in projects like yours. But looks like Otis has the word on it.

Just in case epoxy actually is a solution to your problem, this site has some info that might be of use to you. Not tried it myself, but have heard good results come with it.
Git Rot? I would think you can get this in your part of the world, but if not, probably something similar. 

Personally, for restoration, I'm thinking replacing the wood, where need be, would be the way to go. For maintenance or upkeep, then epoxy might be the way to go. Good luck.


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## Tiny (Aug 12, 2012)

Hello Otis.

Thank's for consentrating to my questions. 
To your question about rotten wood. Old pine is strong against rott. I wouldn't like to teache anybody of you but sinse I don't know you well jet I have to take the risk of doing so. At a sertain age (not size) the vertical central part of the pine starts to grow from inside forming the so called heart wood (I don't know the correct terms in english but I guess you understand what I mean) that is redish by colour. During that growing phase the wood produces penicilins to the central part of the wood. 
(When I'm talking about restoring old windows I mean allways old wood like what I explained abowe.) Old windows were allways made of the heartwood of pine. 
Our house was built in 1918. The windows are original. They were propably repaired 25-30yrs ago. I started to restore them after we had bought the house in 2005. They were in the most horrible condition I have ever seen windows in. At that time the house and Windows where 87yrs old. In our climate wood doesn't rott that fast not even on the ground.

It was the Functionalism before and after the IIWW that bought the nonpainted window frames but even now the traditional way is to paint the window frames white.
Glass and window frame are combined with tiny nails and oil putty.
The parts that will eventually rott first are the exterior frames.
We Finns have quite similar climate as Sweden has and I know they have several houses from the 1600th century that with original windows. So they might be 250yrs old.

I'm very sorry to "hear" of your misfortune.
We don't have that kind of a culture in Finland that we would replace wood with "plastic". 
If a person thinks that his/hers windows needs to be cured he/she thinks 
A) These windows should be changed to new factory made windows. 
B) I must find a carpenter to restore my window frames (rotten wood is replaced with wood). He/she *doesn't* think 
C) what was the name of the place where I can find that manificue epikloryhydrane and bisfenol-A?
I am suspicious person. I'm very suspicious if somebody tells me that ZZZ is great! if that is opposite to my knowledge. On the contrary I will get strange looks if I'm telling I'm repairing old wooden structures with fiberglass. It has happend to me. It was 20 yrs ago.
I use epoxy but not in woodworking.

Hopefully this explained more of our ways to treat old wooden structures and how we think of them. I'm not allone with my thoughts. This is the way how it is in Finland.


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## Tiny (Aug 12, 2012)

I'm not having an inner camp with myself nore am I in a crossroads. Your way and our way just differs so very much of each other.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Esko; there's a huge difference of opinion on the relative humidity issue, between you folks and our bldg. codes over here. This isn't to say that your technology isn't the correct way (a lot of people over here hate our new code requirements)!
We have no choice over here but to follow our building codes, and they most definitely insist on _preventing exfiltration of moisture _through the buildings components.
Speaking only for our local Bldg. Inspection efforts, they strongly encourage heat exchangers on the heating system, where the incoming exterior air is prewarmed by the exhausted interior air. In theory at least, the building could have all permanently sealed windows and still have plenty of fresh air, and the excess moisture would be exhausted.
Needless to say the code is a lot more lenient with existing buildings.
How does an air exchanger work? | vanEE


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Sorry, Esko; i should have stated the reasoning behind tightly sealing the interior.
The theory is that warm moves to cold, ie the warm water vapour in the house tries to migrate through the structure to the exterior of the building, it meets the frigid exterior and the water vapour molecules condense to water _inside the walls_, saturating the insulation and framing. This of course leads to wood rot. 
Our prevention technology includes well sealed vapour barriers, and thermal barriers where required, in order to prevent transfer of heat to the exterior.


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## Tiny (Aug 12, 2012)

Hi Dan.
They allways go hand in hand well seald wapour barrier and airexchanger. This is a never ending discussion with two sides; the "left behinders" like me and those guys who speaks for the building industry/b. inspectors. We see the issue from a totaly different angel.


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## Tiny (Aug 12, 2012)

I think that because of my language issues there is a slight misunderstanding; I was inquiring about the use of epoxy because I was interested in the different practises of our countries. Fortunately I don't have a current problem situation with a client - but in last years I have had some due to the customer wanting some material / technique to be used, me having consented to it and customer not being totally satisfied with the results, so thank you Otis for your reflection on the matter! Helps me to stay clear within the materials and techniques I know have been prooved and explaining to the customer why I insist on using them. Even though the cost might be higher. I'm not wanting to say that there is no need to continuously learn and explore new things - but imply them to the professional practice only after beeing familiar and proficient with them. 
Ps. When I told earlier that we don't use epoxy on wood I forgot about the boat builders who use epoxy in boat building. 
(My wife helped me with the language, a little.)


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## viktor (Nov 26, 2012)

*Helo Esko.*

I am sory for my english, but i hope you would understand what I have to say to you. I am from Slovenia and in our part of the Europe, we use for restoration of older furniture and windows the glue called Tekafiks, it is poyurethane glue. I must say that I have good expirience with it, because when it dries it is like polystyrene and coluld be sanded and painted. It is resistant from -40 to + 80 degrees Celsius. When applied swells little, so it fills the small gaps.

I hope that helped a little, but if not no harm.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Different brands over here, Viktor, but absolutely! Polyurethane glues have really caught on.


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## OPG3 (Jan 9, 2011)

Tiny, You are welcome for my long story. Even though we have only been friends for a short while, I get a strong feeling that you are a guy that is all about being honest and sincere with the people you are working with. I admire that in a person. I was raised in a family where we were taught right from wrong. I simply am not a person who can leave someone feeling like they got cheated. One of my biggest faults is that I tend to initially trust people - even when I should be more cautious, but the past 20-25 years has taught me to be more cautious. People who know me well also know that if I get into a project - that project will get my very best effort - this is just how I am, and now at 60 years old I can say in all sincerity that I am proud of my past and look forward to more work in the future - USING MY SAME OLD PRACTICES. Unfortunately, as much as it is against my nature; I NOW feel forced to be skeptical to some degree.

The "heart pine" wood you mentioned is amazing from old-growth timber. I've seen the advertisements for epoxy designed to repair rotten wood - but personally I would not trust it for your application - now that I better understand what you're using it for. It sounds to me like your initial desire to replace wood with more wood is in fact your best choice. NO SURPRISES is a good way to work. There are thousands of products "out there" that work great in LABORATORY CONDITIONS, but it is entirely another situation to expect the same performance under severe real-world situations.

I have always been all about think "outside of the box", but I am also learning (often the hard way) that there are _some people_ that will say anything to get you to buy their product - even against your better judgement!

Take care my friend,
Otis Guillebeau from Auburn, Georgia


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## Tiny (Aug 12, 2012)

Hello Viktor. I know polyurethane glues but I have never try them.


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

I remember what we used to used to do... Wood hardeners and end grain selaers. The end grain selaers we used were little more than about the viscosity of oil, soaked into the wood, then hardened up... much like CPES epoxys do today.

On sealing wood-- ??? We always did that and continue that (in theory). If you do a paint out, that always was a sealing surface. Bare wood may breath, but once your apply most exterior finishes... well? Sort of a paradox to those theories on breathing.

For us, a lot was on what it was going to take to completely replace a complete reproduction of, to splice something it, or to fill and harder the area. A lot of that was on what was structurally sound, but in keeping with the the style of what was there... That is factors of restoration carpentry. A lot of times here, you start stepping into new grounds and the newer codes when you go deeper into it. You can still do that and keep with the look and feel of the original structure.

I've had to work on both sides of that. Seattle has quite some codes for new construction... but has even stricter regulations on what you can do to a building that is registered as a historical landmark. Those reg's protect that it remains in the spirit of it's heritage. One of the buildings I worked on was the first building built on West Lake Union. Beautiful Mahogany Trim!!! And yet we raised the structure a story... raing the elevation of the complete structure up a story to build a new additional bottom floor under it... and added on to one side of all 3 floors.


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## Tiny (Aug 12, 2012)

Hello my friends.
Sorry not answering earlier. To be able to answer to you Otis and Mike correctly I must first get some language help from my dear wife. It could be later today.


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## Dejure (Jul 27, 2009)

I understand the concept of restoring damaged material in a fashion which maintains the appearance of old, but not the idea "well, that's the way it was done so we are too."

Many old practices have produced things that hold up better than all but a few of those built today. Take particle board shelving, for example. It's not likely to compete with plywood and solid wood in the collectable market.

On the other hand, many new techniques and finishes are superior to the old ones. Back in the day, linseed oil and shellac were common finishes, but didn't fare a fraction as well when subjected to foot traffic, the elements and so forth. 

If you want to get technical, paints should contain lead, to constitute actual restoration. For some houses, to retain their historical accuracy, the floors should be done with shellac, rather than poly.

To me, it's important to maintain the building in a way that will best preserve it long term. Of course, that should allow maintenance and provide the appearance of the original house.

All this said, a little common sense goes a long ways. For example, swapping windows to double pane just makes sense and does not compromise the appearance.
_______________
The oldest Queen Ann in Olympia, Washington, is on the list of historical homes and work on it must meet the criteria of a board, so it doesn't lose its unique character. After seeing some of the crap some of the ignorant fools on the board tossed around, I've concluded calling them ignorant was generous.

The owners contracted the local window restoration "expert." If the pictures he represented as his were really his, he was better than just good. However, from his work on the house, it would also appear he worked with too much lead from those old houses.

He restored every window in the house, to the tune of thousands of dollars. Afterward, I talked the owners into dragging him back to do them right. They were sloppy in their guides. So much so, it would have been impossible to heat the house. Too, he insisted flat paint was superior to higher sheen paints, which, anyone familiar with paint, knows is bull.

I rebuilt the panel door and installed double pane glass. With new gaskets, you could no longer hear the traffic driving by, until you walked into the front room, where the windows had been restored to their original configuration and such.

On a upper floor touch up, rather than relying on linseed oil under the glazing, I sealed the wood so failed glazing (it's not if, it's, of course, when it fails). The new tech seal will never be seen by other than future restorers, but provides a second layer of protection against moisture seeping past shrinking glazing.


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