# Bloody Brass template guides



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

I did some work on the clock today and routed out a square for the mechanism to sit in. Some time ago I had a project that required a shallow cut out for a clock mechanism so I made a quick template from scrap chipboard and used a Brass 16mm Porter Cable type template guide with a 10mm cutter, so today, rather than make a new template for a sizeable 40mm guide, I took the easy way out and used the afore mentioned template. All went as expected 'till the 4th cut when suddenly there was a lot of banging and "things" flew across the shed. Being used to a 40mm guide where the chuck fits through the guide, I didn't realise that the chuck had reached the guide, and being Brass it made little noise as it unscrewed the ring nut and the guide and nut went flying. Now, if the guide had been steel, as soon as the chuck touched it there would have been a loud noise accompanied by lots of sparks and the router would have been immediately released, allowing the cutter to enter the safety of the housing. 
When I found the guide, it was still spinning like a child's spinning top. So much for the often touted Brass guides.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Harry

Try using a smaller bit or bigger BRASS guide :dance3: the bit should not hit/rub the inside of the Bloody guide :lol:



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harrysin said:


> I did some work on the clock today and routed out a square for the mechanism to sit in. Some time ago I had a project that required a shallow cut out for a clock mechanism so I made a quick template from scrap chipboard and used a Brass 16mm Porter Cable type template guide with a 10mm cutter, so today, rather than make a new template for a sizeable 40mm guide, I took the easy way out and used the afore mentioned template. All went as expected 'till the 4th cut when suddenly there was a lot of banging and "things" flew across the shed. Being used to a 40mm guide where the chuck fits through the guide, I didn't realise that the chuck had reached the guide, and being Brass it made little noise as it unscrewed the ring nut and the guide and nut went flying. Now, if the guide had been steel, as soon as the chuck touched it there would have been a loud noise accompanied by lots of sparks and the router would have been immediately released, allowing the cutter to enter the safety of the housing.
> When I found the guide, it was still spinning like a child's spinning top. So much for the often touted Brass guides.


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## jd99 (Jun 17, 2009)

Free style Routing...... :jester:


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## AxlMyk (Jun 13, 2006)

bobj3 said:


> Hi Harry
> Try using a smaller bit or bigger BRASS guide :dance3: the bit should not hit/rub the inside of the Bloody guide :lol:========


It was the chuck that was touching the guide. I've done that.


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Can't blame this one on the guides, it is pure "Operator head space" meaning somebody was not paying attention to their set up. Like a pilot following his check list we *always* test for clearance before plugging in and applying power to the router. We do this the same way *every time *we use the router. Why? Because faimilarity breeds accidents. I would not want to hit a steel guide bushing either. Let me be the first to say I am very happy you were not injured Harry.


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## CanuckGal (Nov 26, 2008)

Close one Harry. Glad you are ok!


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Guys and gals, tools and equipment that we use should be chosen so as to minimise the possibility of an accident, that's why I normally make templates for use with large guides allowing the chuck to pass through the guide, even on the rare occasions where it's been necessary to use a small guide, it's normally steel and as I mentioned in the first post, if the chuck does happen to touch the steel guide there is noise and sparks giving fair warning. May I suggest that ANYONE who claims this has never happened, either hasn't done a great deal of routing or perhaps has a poor memory! Porter Cable type Brass guides...........YUK...............Just my humble opinion!

This is an edit.........I forgot to mention that this very morning (our time) I was speaking to a fellow member on Skype and he told me that HE has had occasions where Brass guides have become loose, and that's without touching the rotating chuck!


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## CharleyL (Feb 28, 2009)

Harry,

I feel your pain, but I still prefer brass guide bushings over steel. If you weren't so far away I would give you my "only slightly used" set of steel guide bushings. You most likely plunged the router collet into the bushing nut, and you would likely have had the same result no matter which type of bushing you were using, although a steel bushing would have produced a more "visible" result. 

To keep my router bushings from loosening I've started using some wave washer type lock washers that I bought from Peachtree Wooodworking in Atlanta, GA "www.ptree.com" . Since I started using these behind the nuts I haven't had any more loose guide bushing nut problems, although I can't remember ever plunging a collet into them. 

Charley


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## Mike Wingate (Apr 26, 2009)

I had noise and sparks when my Bosch router collet met the steel template.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Harry

Maybe you need the item below 

Just a note,, I hate using the YUK steel guides..  maybe you have some OLD brass guides..

" member on Skype " Glen has big fingers and the nut needs to be screwed down tight ,it's worth the time to double check it out b/4 you hit the power switch  if it's tight it will not come free until you want to remove it..  I have had to use a channel lock pliers sometimes to get it free  they hold that well 

Router Bushing Spring Washer
Router Accessories

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harrysin said:


> Guys and gals, tools and equipment that we use should be chosen so as to minimise the possibility of an accident, that's why I normally make templates for use with large guides allowing the chuck to pass through the guide, even on the rare occasions where it's been necessary to use a small guide, it's normally steel and as I mentioned in the first post, if the chuck does happen to touch the steel guide there is noise and sparks giving fair warning. May I suggest that ANYONE who claims this has never happened, either hasn't done a great deal of routing or perhaps has a poor memory! Porter Cable type Brass guides...........YUK...............Just my humble opinion!
> 
> This is an edit.........I forgot to mention that this very morning (our time) I was speaking to a fellow member on Skype and he told me that HE has had occasions where Brass guides have become loose, and that's without touching the rotating chuck!


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## RustyW (Dec 28, 2005)

harrysin said:


> on the rare occasions where it's been necessary to use a small guide, it's normally steel and as I mentioned in the first post, if the chuck does happen to touch the steel guide there is noise and sparks giving fair warning.



Harry, Are you saying that steel is better because the sparks flying into your sawdust will let you know there's a problem? My experience with threaded steel guides is that they will loosen without any interference. I have made contact of the collet with a brass guide before. But then I got a larger set. I do have one guide that uses 2 screws to attach to the router. It came with my big Hitachi that stays in the table so I dont use it. If they were more common around here and I had a set to fit a handheld router, I would see no reason not to use them. Funny thing about the Hitachi manual. I lists part numbers for several guides(even metric up to 40mm). But when I contact Hitachi, they say "not available" in USA.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

RustyW said:


> Harry, Are you saying that steel is better because the sparks flying into your sawdust will let you know there's a problem? My experience with threaded steel guides is that they will loosen without any interference. I have made contact of the collet with a brass guide before. But then I got a larger set. I do have one guide that uses 2 screws to attach to the router. It came with my big Hitachi that stays in the table so I dont use it. If they were more common around here and I had a set to fit a handheld router, I would see no reason not to use them. Funny thing about the Hitachi manual. I lists part numbers for several guides(even metric up to 40mm). But when I contact Hitachi, they say "not available" in USA.


Rusty, in fact everyone, it isn't a matter of what material the guides are made from, it's the out dated screw design of the Porter Cable type guides which just happen to be made from brass. No mechanical engineer could disagree with me when I say that the Makita/Hitachi method of securing the guides is far superior to the PC screw type. Hands up all those who have had a Makita or Hitachi template guide come loose. Surely, simple logic dictates that a single piece guide must be safer than a three piece one. Even a highly technical man like Mike Wingate has had sparks flying, I know the theory of checking all details before starting the router, but most of us are mere humans who do make the occasional mistake and so should be protected from ourselves as much as possible.


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## Mike Wingate (Apr 26, 2009)

Tools generally work. Craftsmen occasionally mess up. Having read lots of threads about template guides, 2 things have become obvious to me. Use a large template guide and you can see where you are routing, the router is better supported because the template is larger and there is more clearance for both the bit and the waste. Secondly, use a large 30mm plus guide and make all your templates to suit, and the collet will pass through the guide and no sparks and noise. I have always used a small template guide as my first one was about 11mm dia, and I made most of my templates to suit over the years. I now draw all my templates using CAD. So much quicker and more accurate. Even though I don't cut them by CAM, (2 poor experiences of the cutter going to home across the template) I may soon cut them on the Laser we have at school. Enclosed is an attachment drawn in 2D design for some feather-boards to be cut next Tuesday in polypropylene.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

In the computer world one refers to the "short circuit between the keyboard and the floor." 

I'm still so scared of my routers, you've now traumatized me for the rest of the month ;-) I'll have nightmares for weeks now. Thanks Harry! 

Thank heavens I use brass. I'd hate to have all of those sparks and bits of burning metal flying all over the place, especially in my sawdust clogged workshop. One spark and the router is the least of my worries.

Allthunbs


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Mike, am I right in assuming that "feed direction with the arrows" is the direction of feeding the wood, if so I cannot agree with you on this occasion. The wood should slide easily past the fingers when feeding, but lock it if attempting to go backwards as in kick-back.


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Harry, that is exactly what is shown. The left half mounts to the fence, the right half is for table mounting.


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## levon (Sep 14, 2008)

it seems to me this shot is for layout purposes and if separated would be more easily understood. it threw me when i first looked at it, but i chalked up my misunderstanding to inexperience.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

I'm still confused, may be just me or possibly the fact that it's close to bed time or even possibly my nightly Grant's "medicine" that's almost finished!


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## Mike Wingate (Apr 26, 2009)

sorry for the confusion with the featherboards. One of each pairis for the fence. I shall be making several pairs. I have rounded a few corners as well as putting my name on, in vain.


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## Mike Wingate (Apr 26, 2009)

Speaking of sparks and dust, I have set fire to the sawdust inside my bandsaw twice after sawing aluminium and brass, so take care. The house opposite was struck by lightning 4 weeks ago and is gutted.
BBC NEWS | UK | England | Manchester | Evacuation after lightning strike


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## Ghidrah (Oct 21, 2008)

Same thing happened to me twice in 20 something yrs. of routing. Go figure, I always thought they were aluminum, (too cheap to spend on the brass). 

After the 1st incident I began using pliers to tighten the ring down, when it happened the 2nd time, (last winter) I felt sure it couldn't be from not tight enough, which made me wonder again about the 1st time. 

Sometimes I have close tolerance, (bit to guide ID) sometimes not. I'm thinking maybe there might have been debris in the guide threads or maybe under the guide, or between the guide and ring, I don't know.

All I know is it's scary as hell when it happens and in my case neither incident wrecked the bits, and I still use both guides, I took some wood dowel, forced it through the guide and tapped the OD to round it back out.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

The evidence is coming in that screw type three piece guides are not inherently safe.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Mike, going off topic for a moment, yesterday we watched "open house" on TV, a two bedroom terrace house in Altrincham sold for £238,000.500, here for that money you'd get a modern 4 bedroom ,2 bathroom, family room, games/theatre room, laundry, double garage with auto doors, a covered patio, well set out gardens etc, etc on at least a 1/6 th. acre freehold block.


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Three piece guides? You mean a threaded guide bushing with a locking ring and an additional collar? Or do you mean the Makita type with two screws and a guide busing? All of these work fine as long as the operator checks for proper clearance before applying power. It is just that simple. I have had steel PC style bushings loosen up under power but never the brass.


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## AxlMyk (Jun 13, 2006)

harrysin said:


> double garage with auto doors,


Do they open from the top, down?


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## Gene Howe (Jul 10, 2007)

My brass PC guides work loose, also. But, so do the steel ones. I fixed them by applying Teflon plumber's tape to the threads. 

Gene


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Gene Howe said:


> My brass PC guides work loose, also. But, so do the steel ones. I fixed them by applying Teflon plumber's tape to the threads.
> 
> Gene


You still appear to be talking about three piece guides, an adaptor, a threaded guide and a round nut. As I mentioned in an earlier post, it's not the material that I'm against, just the out of date three piece ones compared to the one piece guides. Mike's attempt at humour surprises me considering the safety issues underlying this thread.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

AxlMyk said:


> Do they open from the top, down?


As surprising as it may seem Mike, they are conventional, mounted at the top and come down.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

harrysin said:


> Mike, going off topic for a moment, yesterday we watched "open house" on TV, a two bedroom terrace house in Altrincham sold for £238,000.500, here for that money you'd get a modern 4 bedroom ,2 bathroom, family room, games/theatre room, laundry, double garage with auto doors, a covered patio, well set out gardens etc, etc on at least a 1/6 th. acre freehold block.


Holy Cow: you won't want to know how much I paid for this place - quiet village 1/4 acre.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Gene Howe said:


> My brass PC guides work loose, also. But, so do the steel ones. I fixed them by applying Teflon plumber's tape to the threads.
> 
> Gene


Hi Gene:

I looked at the PorterCable catalogue and I couldn't find brass guides anywhere. Are they PorterCable or PorterCable-sized brass guides? I looked online.

One of the biggest causes of accidents is dirt. I keep all mating recesses clean and all insert parts clean and free of resin, oil and grease. This doesn't eliminate "accidents" but it does reduce them. The other part is common sense. Practice religiously.

Allthunbs


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## Gene Howe (Jul 10, 2007)

harrysin said:


> You still appear to be talking about three piece guides, an adaptor, a threaded guide and a round nut. As I mentioned in an earlier post, it's not the material that I'm against, just the out of date three piece ones compared to the one piece guides. Mike's attempt at humour surprises me considering the safety issues underlying this thread.


Yep, three piece. One piece makes more sense. I always figured that they were router brand/model specific. Am I wrong?

Gene


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

allthunbs said:


> Holy Cow: you won't want to know how much I paid for this place - quiet village 1/4 acre.


Go on Ron, don't keep us in suspense.


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## Hamlin (Dec 25, 2005)

Harry,

I for one am glad to know that you're ok and didn't get injured. I have recently, (this past winter), encountered a similar problem once. I have an use brass guides/bushings. I've had one loosen on me. Turned out, it was simply too cold in my shop for them to "hold tight". 

Bobj, did point me in a direction of getting a pair of spring rings that slip over the threads, tighten the nut and they don't come loose. Unfortunately, I don't have a link to post of them. Still trying to get info from the pc moved over to the new one.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Ken, the evidence is slowly mounting about the POTENTIAL danger of three piece guides compared to the Makita type one piece guides which are not affected whether in the centre of Australia or in the coldest winter that Canada has ever experienced!


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## Mike Wingate (Apr 26, 2009)

I have slipped a rubber O ring on mine.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Harry

I guess that's why most good pipe fitting are made of BRASS and not steel, brass will seal so much better than steel plated ones.. without the need of a gaskets or sealing compound to fill the gap in the threads the norm 

Brass ,,,It will give just a little bit unlike steel ones without the need of high torque on the ring nut..


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harrysin said:


> Ken, the evidence is slowly mounting about the POTENTIAL danger of three piece guides compared to the Makita type one piece guides which are not affected whether in the centre of Australia or in the coldest winter that Canada has ever experienced!


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Bob, guys are coming in stating that they have had BRASS PC style guides come loose. By the way, I'm part way through making an illuminated Acrylic router base but have suddenly realised that when used with a template guide it will block most of the light. With this in mind, before going any further, I'll see if it's possible to make a transparent 40mm guide.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Harry

I have been thinking about the illuminated Acrylic router base ,it would be best if it was made it out of 1/4" thick stock I think,,,like a sandwich thing some slots for the wires and lights and a pocket hole for the battery box then with some screws holding the two parts together with a clear 40mm guide pocket to hold it..then just some more strips to hold your 12mm rod in place on the top side of the base plate..all in clear stock..and maybe a knob or two on the ends..for control of the base plate 


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harrysin said:


> Bob, guys are coming in stating that they have had BRASS PC style guides come loose. By the way, I'm part way through making an illuminated Acrylic router base but have suddenly realised that when used with a template guide it will block most of the light. With this in mind, before going any further, I'll see if it's possible to make a transparent 40mm guide.


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## Mike Wingate (Apr 26, 2009)

Illuminated (LED) sub base with a 40mm clear tube cemented in the centre to act as a guide?


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

The problem there Mike would mean that the base could only be used with the 40mm guide, there are occasions when other sizes are used also many times when no guide is used.
You have however given me an idea, what if the hole in the new base is threaded and each size transparent guide is also threaded, problem solved?


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

harrysin said:


> You have however given me an idea, what if the hole in the new base is threaded and each size transparent guide is also threaded, problem solved?


No, I wouldn't think so. The problem is the mechanical ability of the plastic to...

1. handle the threading process both male and female. You can cast threads easily, but cutting them would be another matter, depending, of course, on how brittle the plastic is. 

2. You don't want plastic that is easy to thread, it would be too brittle; soft plastic would deflect too much from the torque of the router - unless you're using the little Makita - that could be a different story

3. then there's the situation of repeated adding and removing of the guide. That will wear the threads and the plastic prematurely.

My solution would be to make a series of big guides. Make a series of baseplates and glue in transparent guides of different sizes. Instead of threading in a guide, change the baseplate and guide with screws instead. Far more in keeping with your Makita 1-piece guide philosophy:jester:

When I'm using a template, I don't need to see where the bit is going, I built the template to control that. Why try to second guess what you've worked so hard to create? 

In addition, dust will always obscure what you're attempting to cut. Devise more effective dust removeal before adding illumination. 

What I did notice is that when I'm using skis freehand I can control the router only as precicely as I can see. I use a striking knife to create a precise line but unless I can see where the bit is relative to the line, the line is of no use. That said, I might point you to the Rockler LED work light with magnifying glass built in. 

Allthunbs


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Harry

This is what I did so I could use the guides,,it's just a press in ring that will take on the BRASS guides easy.. I know you don't like the brass guides but it's no big deal to use the steel ones or to set it up to use your 40mm guide the same way with two drilled and tap holes in the base..

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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

I'm going to take a breather on this project to give me time to think it through thoroughly. Thanks for your input Ron and Bob. .................To be continued!


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

harrysin said:


> I'm going to take a breather on this project to give me time to think it through thoroughly. Thanks for your input Ron and Bob. .................To be continued!


I couldn't help myself! Here is a test 40mm Acrylic template guide, it seems to be quite rigid, I have no idea as to the type of plastic, it was just a small off-cut that I scrounged. I'm going to test it for a while in place of my steel one with the router "as is" before proceeding with the illuminated base, but here is a shot of the progress thus far.


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