# Bit For Edge Jointing



## jackson74 (Dec 10, 2014)

Looking for the best bit for edge jointing on the router table.. Figuring a up spiral 1/2 Whiteside would do the trick but not sure if a compression bit would be better?

Thanks for any advice!


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

Welcome to the forum, Jackson....

I use a 2" long 1/2" shear bit...Works ok for me...


http://www.carbatec.com.au/806-super-duty-flush-trim-bits_c17510


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## Semipro (Mar 22, 2013)

Hello and welcome to the forum.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Welcome to the forum Terry. The up spiral might do a bit better but pricey compared to straight bits with or without a shear angle. I would try a straight bit first with a large diameter, for example 1.5". I think the larger diameter will help with a better cut.


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## Gaffboat (Mar 11, 2012)

jw2170 said:


> Welcome to the forum, Jackson....
> 
> I use a 2" long 1/2" shear bit...Works ok for me...


+1 with James.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

jw2170 said:


> i use a 2" long 1/2" shear bit...works ok for me...


+2....


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## jackson74 (Dec 10, 2014)

*Thanks...*

Thanks for the help..

So if reading this correctly it seems more or less the opinion is that a large diameter straight bit probably does a good enough job not to warrant the price costs for the spiral cutter..

Sounds good to me to try for awhile .. I will post my results once I get running the bit and glue up some panels..

Thanks for the warm welcome


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## BOjr (Dec 1, 2012)

Over the years I've come across two very different theories on this. One says that you want a perfectly smooth edge on both pieces to be mated and the other says you don't want it real smooth to get a better/stronger glue joint. I went with the latter theory because it was quicker and easer. I run the pieces through the table saw with the fence just a HAIR off of being parallel to the blade. I make the edge banding a little wider than the piece it is being glued to which means the glue up doesn't have to be as precise. I then use my router to trim the edge band flush with the mating piece. I have edge bands that have been on for 20+ years with no problems and in cases where the pieces are of the same wood with the grain running in the same manner you can't see the joint.

Buck


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

BOjr said:


> I run the pieces through the table saw with the fence just a HAIR off of being parallel to the blade. I make the edge banding a little wider than the piece it is being glued to which means the glue up doesn't have to be as precise. I then use my router to trim the edge band flush with the mating piece.


Forgive me saying this, Buck, but if you've already run the material through the table saw then all it takes is a couple of passes with a sharp, finely set jointer plane (something lIke a Stanley #7) to get a really good jointed edge. That's a lot less work than any router table set-up in my experience. Sometimes the simple solutions work best

BTW you're right about wanting a smooth edge - roughened edges are impossible to correctly check for hollow joints and never seem to make a tight joint

Regards

Phil


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## PhilBa (Sep 25, 2014)

I think it depends on what your goal is. Extra strength or invisible glue line. Either way will produce a solid glue joint. More surface area (rougher edges) will be stronger but smooth will still be plenty strong. The glue line of the smoother joint will be less noticeable. 

By the way, I've heard an argument against rough that goes something like the rough edges have broken wood grain which doesn't contribute to strength. My gut feeling is either approach is good enough.


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

I use a jointer, but this Infinity bit gives a nice table top finish. and could be used as a jointer,the shavings are fine and fluffy.
Herb


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> Welcome to the forum Terry. The up spiral might do a bit better but pricey compared to straight bits with or without a shear angle. I would try a straight bit first with a large diameter, for example 1.5". I think the larger diameter will help with a better cut.



I almost hate to ask this question as it will sure make me look ignorant, but what's new. I have not ever thought of a straight bit that is 1.5" inches in diameter, is that correct. 

Also, I had never thought of a glue edge that is any better that what my jointer cuts, I have never had a problem with an edge glue joint other than the pieces not staying perfectly butted up due to the glue being so slippery, but the strength, at east for my purpose has been satisfactory.

I'd iike to hear more about edge jointing, obviously I'm in the dark on the subject and will never figure it out if I don't even know that it can be a problem let along how to do it correctly. I hope that this post doesn't make me look to bad.

Jerry B.


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

Jerry Bowen said:


> I almost hate to ask this question as it will sure make me look ignorant, but what's new. I have not ever thought of a straight bit that is 1.5" inches in diameter, is that correct.
> 
> Also, I had never thought of a glue edge that is any better that what my jointer cuts, I have never had a problem with an edge glue joint other than the pieces not staying perfectly butted up due to the glue being so slippery, but the strength, at east for my purpose has been satisfactory.
> 
> ...


The only 1 1/2" ones I have seen are on shapers.
But that is a good question. The cut itself is not as important as the squareness and straightness, and the evenness. If you go fast thru the bit and cause a wavey cut it can effect the strength and looks of the final joint. I think of a good joint as a tight joint. regardless of how it is cut, or what tool cuts it.

Just my thoughts on the matter, remember there are no dumb questions. 

Glad you ask,
Herb


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

Herb Stoops said:


> The only 1 1/2" ones I have seen are on shapers.
> But that is a good question. The cut itself is not as important as the squareness and straightness, and the evenness. If you go fast thru the bit and cause a wavey cut it can effect the strength and looks of the final joint. I think of a good joint as a tight joint. regardless of how it is cut, or what tool cuts it.
> 
> Just my thoughts on the matter, remember there are no dumb questions.
> ...



I feel a little better thank you Herb, I didn't think that any router like what I use would handle a 1.5" straight bit. 

When the fence on the jointer is square with the bed my edges are, as well as I can tell, square, smooth and straight. The joints are almost invisblae, if it weren't for not matching grain pattern you could almost not detect them with the naked eye, or so I think.

It sounds like it's one of thowe "High End Guy" type of thing being discussed here that lessor experienced people like myself don't even think about, YET THAT IS.

Jerry


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## old55 (Aug 11, 2013)

Welcome to the forum.


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

PhilBa said:


> I think it depends on what your goal is. Extra strength or invisible glue line. Either way will produce a solid glue joint. More surface area (rougher edges) will be stronger but smooth will still be plenty strong


Perhaps, Phil, but I've rarely seen a plain joint _when properly made and glued_ which has failed under normal service (note that I'm a carpenter and joiner so I've seen a lot of joints over the years). When you get failure it's often down to overstressing the joint, or a "dry" joint (insufficient glue). Modern glues are remarkably strong and extremely durable. I raelise that to a hobbyist this may seem counter-intuitive, but I really can't recall ever seeing a bench joiner using these cutters - at least not for small runs or one-offs - because they deliver no advantage whilst taking a lot longer to make than butt joints

Another issue I have with jointing on a router table is that it is very difficult to adjust the joint should it come off the saw slightly out of straight. With a hand plane or a machine jointer that's dead easy and the hand plane in particular gives the user the ability to "micro tune" joints in a way which cannot be done with a machine - it's also possible with a hand plane to plane a joint which is slightly hollow to counter the tendency of board ends to shrink more than centres plus hand planes DON'T give you snipe!



Jerry Bowen said:


> I have not ever thought of a straight bit that is 1.5" inches in diameter, is that correct.


Freud and some other go up to more about 40mm (1-1/2in) diameter on 1/2in shanks, Jerry. This is what my own supplier of choice offers, note the T1440M at 40mm (just over 1-1/2in). I sometimes use a Freud template trim (top bearing) bit which is 1-1/2in diameter (38mm) to do finish cut-outs for Belfast/butler sinks in hardwood worktops (counters) such as beech or sycamore. These are done by hand using a 2000 watt ("3-1/2HP") plunge router and a template guide - manhandling a 100kg (200lb) slab of beech onto a router table just isn't going to happen! The extra mass of the large diameter cutter makes it work a lot more smoothly and the scallops from the large diameter are much less noticeable than those from a small diameter cutter (just like on a spindle moulder/shaper, big is better than small) - but for safety's sake you need to rough trim to within about 3mm (1/8in) from the finish line, the spindle speed needs to be dropped to 12k rpm or so and the passes need to in 6mm to 8mm (1/4 to 5/16in) steps in order to keep the feed speed up to the point where you aren't burning the material (especially on sycamore/maple end grain)

Regards

Phil


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

Phil P said:


> Perhaps, Phil, but I've rarely seen a plain joint _when properly made and glued_ which has failed under normal service (note that I'm a carpenter and joiner so I've seen a lot of joints over the years). When you get failure it's often down to overstressing the joint, or a "dry" joint (insufficient glue). Modern glues are remarkably strong and extremely durable. I raelise that to a hobbyist this may seem counter-intuitive, but I really can't recall ever seeing a bench joiner using these cutters - at least not for small runs or one-offs - because they deliver no advantage whilst taking a lot longer to make than butt joints
> 
> Another issue I have with jointing on a router table is that it is very difficult to adjust the joint should it come off the saw slightly out of straight. With a hand plane or a machine jointer that's dead easy and the hand plane in particular gives the user the ability to "micro tune" joints in a way which cannot be done with a machine - it's also possible with a hand plane to plane a joint which is slightly hollow to counter the tendency of board ends to shrink more than centres plus hand planes DON'T give you snipe!
> 
> ...


Phil,
Extremely interesting. You and folks like you live in an entirely different world that I do. The largest material that I have ever used and so far, ever expect to use is the rought cut hardwood that is an inch or so thick and when milled ends up to be about 3/4" thick. I guess that we are taking about the difference in an amature hobbist and a professional carpenter aren't we?

What you are talking about cinating to a novice like myself but probably is a subject that I will ever get involved in other than reading about it. I have to wonder if I'm more the normal member of the forum or among the minority. The truth probably lies in between and there is no real norm, we are all unique and that's the way it should be.

I guess that I need to ask you what your opinion is of joints that are as simple as what I have described. Say 3/4" thick 36" long and simply have the edges cleaned up on a jointer such as my six inch Grizzly jointer with spiral cutting head?

The truth is however, that I do not actually use plain butt joints but instead use biscuits or splines to keep the faces of the parts being joined together to stay flat and in line and on a common plain.

I know that you would never "bad mouth my tools" but honestly, how does this tool compare to the standards that you use in your line of work. I really would like to know. Sometimes ignorance is bliss and while I may be happy with the results that I'm having with my tools it may be due to my not having any thing to compare them with. How can one know if one does not ask.

If Harry is reading this, and I hope that he does, he may be scratching his head over what I am saying in this post. At one time he was willing to give me more advise than I could digest at a time, I was at a point in my learning that I was more interested in testing out my own ideas and more or less waved him off, which sort of hurt his feelings as he is darned good to want to help anybody that he can. Wish that I had handled things differently back then, but that is water under the bridge as they say.

Phil you have, in this thread spoken of shapers which are machines that are have no idea of how they work, or what they can do. To say that I have no idea may not be the right words, I should say, can only imagine, but have never seen one let along see what one can accomplish.

I'm rambing now, it's time to close this off and wait for your reply, or that from other members of the forum. I suspect that my query is not unique and that other will benefit from the replies that come along. Thanks for being so willing to share your fast knowledge of the subject.

Jerry B.

Please give my some feed back on where I'm coming from. I greatly respect your knowledge on such matters.

Jerry B.


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## Gaffboat (Mar 11, 2012)

I think an issue that gets overlooked in this discussion is that not all of us have tools that others take for granted. In my case, I own neither a thickness planer nor a jointer so I have to adapt my projects accordingly. That means I either rely on the cut made by my Freud Rip blade for a smooth edge or occasionally finish the edge with a router bit before gluing. All my wood comes from the big box stores so if I need thicker than 3/4" I have to glue it up unless we're talking about using 2 x 4 pine.


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## phillipsted (Sep 26, 2014)

jw2170 said:


> Welcome to the forum, Jackson....
> 
> I use a 2" long 1/2" shear bit...Works ok for me...


+3 

TedP


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

Gaffboat said:


> I think an issue that gets overlooked in this discussion is that not all of us have tools that others take for granted. In my case, I own neither a thickness planer nor a jointer so I have to adapt my projects accordingly. That means I either rely on the cut made by my Freud Rip blade for a smooth edge or occasionally finish the edge with a router bit before gluing. All my wood comes from the big box stores so if I need thicker than 3/4" I have to glue it up unless we're talking about using 2 x 4 pine.


A very very good point.

Jerry B.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Jerry I have one from Lee Valley that 1.5" and one from Onsrud that is 1.625". When I built my workbench from laminated 2 x 4 and 2 x 6, try as I might, I couldn't keep the top perfectly flat so I stood a sheet of mdf up on either side and made a honking big sled to slide up and down the edges and used the 1.5" to level it.

I've never used my router table for jointing as I have an 8 x 72" but I suggested a large diameter bit because the larger the diameter the more the cutter forces are parallel with the grain in the board. I see by some other's experiences that they have achieved excellent results with a 1/2" bit so there may not be any advantage to going larger.

Oliver makes a good point in that our equipment tends to influence our replies. I'm at the other end of the spectrum from Oliver. I have access to rough cut D fir, spruce, pine, hemlock, red cedar, and western birch so a large planer and jointer make perfect sense for me.


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

I think Phil summed it up perfectly, being a retired carpenter myself, that he is spot on. Different conditions, different tools, but a jointer or hand plane can't be beat. 

As far as butt joints go, they have been making strong butt joints since time began lots of table tops and chair seats , no splines,,biscuits,nothing but good fits ,glue ,and good clamping. And todays glues are phenomenal in their holding power. Just try sometime to break a glue joint, it will take wood with it or break alongside the joint. The most important thing is a tight fit and enough glue.

Herb


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Jerry Bowen said:


> I have to wonder if I'm more the normal member of the forum or among the minority. The truth probably lies in between and there is no real norm, we are all unique and that's the way it should be.


I don't think you are out of the norm at all, Jerry. To me picking up a hand plane (and for that matter tuning and maintaining one) is second nature nowadays. I don't think much about it any more because it's sometimes a daily thing, but I'm hopefully not a "hand tool fetishist", either. I do think that there is something positive to be said, though, for taking the fastest and easiest way to a solution rather than saying something like _"I have tool X so I must justify having it by doing process Y"_. Maybe I'm wrong, but this is what I read on forums at times. My own "blind spot" is in not sufficiently understanding at times where hobbyists limits are - in terms of equipment/tools, experience and understanding



Jerry Bowen said:


> I guess that I need to ask you what your opinion is of joints that are as simple as what I have described. Say 3/4" thick 36" long and simply have the edges cleaned up on a jointer such as my six inch Grizzly jointer with spiral cutting head?


I envy you that machine, Jerry. With edges straight off a machine like that, it should be possible to simply glue up and clamp straight off the machine. You obviously need to check the joint "dry" to make sure that it's not open and do a run through to ensure that you have all the clamps, etc you need, but that's all. In fact the trick, if indeed it is a trick, to making any strong, durable joint is to get it as near perfect as you can and to use the glue relatively sparingly rather than trying to fill gaps with PU (polyurethane) glue or epoxy and not to over clamp (which squeezes all the glue out). There is *no* strength in dried glue, only in timber fibres. After it's all dried there may be a need to plane-in any discrepancies even if you use splines or biscuits - and again there are different ways to do this such as hand planes, belt sanders of thicknessers



Jerry Bowen said:


> The truth is however, that I do not actually use plain butt joints but instead use biscuits or splines to keep the faces of the parts being joined together to stay flat and in line and on a common plain.


If you are happy with that, and it works for you, then great. After all that's what it's about, isn't it? Out on site I'll sometimes resort to biscuits or splines but only because we are working in far from ideal conditions (e.g. only hand and power tools, no machines, no benches, etc) and getting a top surface to align can be imperative. An example of this might be where we are installing a plywood floor using 1in thick hardwood plywood sheets - no way to plane in the joint afterwards, or sand it or anything.



Jerry Bowen said:


> how does this tool compare to the standards that you use in your line of work.


I'd ask _"does it machine the edges straight?"_ and _"does the fence support the work at the correct angle?"_. If the answers are yes to both these then the machine is fit for purpose. These days I'm no longer in a shop, so I have somewhat less choice (in Europe we don't take jointers, table saws, etc to the job - our jobs tend to be run at a brisk pace and large static machinery just gets in the way). If I have to joint stuff on site it's achieved with a combination of a Festool rail saw, a Makita portable table saw, power planer and hand planes. I'll even use hand saws if I feel they are going to be quicker. I'm familiar with my tools, so I don't have to think much about what I'm doing with them - it's that familiarity which makes for an easier life

BTW if you want a bit of tool envy then when I last had a shop my jointer and thicknesser were combined in a single machine. That was an Italian industrial planer/thicknesser with a 4-knife cutter block, 2200mm x 450mm (100 x 18in) planer tables (for jointing, surface planing), a 200mm (8in) high cast iron fence, power rise/fall thicknesser table and 450mm x 250mm (10in) thicknessing capacity. It weighed just over 1 tonne. At the end of the day it was the best I could afford (it was about 10 years old when bought). But, at the end of a day it was also just a tool, so when it worked I didn't give it a second thought. I could just as well done the job on a 6in jointer and an 8in thicknesser, albeit with a bit more "sweat equity". Really. The size and power (7.5HP main motor) made it fast and effortless to use (it almost never bogged down) and meant that I could joint-up 80% of wide boards and plane or thickness in one pass - but I still used to covet the 24 x 9in SCM a colleague owned, that and the 37in wide belt sander he had - especially when I was hand planing out a bad joint! I guess we _all_ suffer from tool envy :cray:



Jerry Bowen said:


> you have, in this thread spoken of shapers which are machines that are have no idea of how they work, or what they can do.


Well, there are shapers and there are shapers - the bigger industrial models are sufficiently powerful to run 100 x 25mm (4 x 1in) rebates in solid oak at about 4 metres/min (13 ft/min) feed rate. Or even larger stuff. They can run heavy rebates in a single pass, raise large panels in a single pass, cut full-size tenons for full-size doors in a single pass - all with the right tooling. But fundamentally, from a hobbyists point of view, a shaper can be considered to be a very big router table. The cutter technology (cutterblocks with exchangeable knives which can be ground to any required profile rather than coming in a limited range of standard profiles) is, however, far more flexible and the tooling capacity far greater than any router can support and is what makes them more suitable for production work such as making doors or windows. Even on small 1HP shapers it is possible to run small to medium size raised panels in a single pass and handle larger stuff that would be problematic with a router in a table

Sorry to have rambled on, Jerry, but, hey - you started it! :yes4:

Regards

Phil


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Gaffboat said:


> I think an issue that gets overlooked in this discussion is that not all of us have tools that others take for granted. In my case, I own neither a thickness planer nor a jointer so I have to adapt my projects accordingly.


These days, Oliver, I work out on site, either on the tools or running jobs and I'm well aware of working within constraints in terms of equipment. There is, however, a case to be made that there are some tools pretty much every woodworker would be expected to have, e.g. try square, hand saw, hand plane, etc. I for one don't see how you can do any job without some "input" from hand tools

Regards

Phil


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

Phil P said:


> I don't think you are out of the norm at all, Jerry. To me picking up a hand plane (and for that matter tuning and maintaining one) is second nature nowadays. I don't think much about it any more because it's sometimes a daily thing, but I'm hopefully not a "hand tool fetishist", either. I do think that there is something positive to be said, though, for taking the fastest and easiest way to a solution rather than saying something like _"I have tool X so I must justify having it by doing process Y"_. Maybe I'm wrong, but this is what I read on forums at times. My own "blind spot" is in not sufficiently understanding at times where hobbyists limits are - in terms of equipment/tools, experience and understanding
> 
> 
> I envy you that machine, Jerry. With edges straight off a machine like that, it should be possible to simply glue up and clamp straight off the machine. You obviously need to check the joint "dry" to make sure that it's not open and do a run through to ensure that you have all the clamps, etc you need, but that's all. In fact the trick, if indeed it is a trick, to making any strong, durable joint is to get it as near perfect as you can and to use the glue relatively sparingly rather than trying to fill gaps with PU (polyurethane) glue or epoxy and not to over clamp (which squeezes all the glue out). There is *no* strength in dried glue, only in timber fibres. After it's all dried there may be a need to plane-in any discrepancies even if you use splines or biscuits - and again there are different ways to do this such as hand planes, belt sanders of thicknessers
> ...



When Jackson 74 started this thread I doubt that he thought that it would go the way that is has. Phil, your reply to my post and my questions is greatly appreciated and hopefully interesting to other members as well.

One glaring issue that comes to me from your reply is the difference between the "hobbyist" and the "professional". A person that makes his or her living is faced first with the issue of their work being profitable and so time spent as well as quality is at the top of their iist of priorities. Working on site instead of in a shop presents an entirely different work environments that those of us that are hobbiyist and work in our shop don't have to be concerned with.


I for one, and might be alone but I doubt it, but it has been so easy for me to forget about the issues that somebody like Phil that needs and used skills that are completely foriengn to me. What Phil has described to me is, as I said before, extremely in interesting to me and gives me a new prospective on the forum.

My gosh, the industrial machinens that he described just amaze me, I'd love to be able to see such tools an watch them being used.

The hobbist on the other hand is not encumbered by time like the pro is. Our projects are limited to our tools and our skill, but the enjoyment that we derive from out hobby is in no way limited by these things. The fun and the time spent on a project are what makes the hobby so interesting. Learning, experimenting and just puttering around takes up our time and it's all quality time in my opinion.

Again, I'm rambling, I'm so guilty of doing so, but it is part of my enjoyment of my woodworking hobby, that being part of this forum where I can and so spend time when I can't be in the shop, I meet new friends, share my interests, ask questions and see what other members are up to and have accomplished, it just a great forum. 

Once again Phil, thanks for taking the time to post to my querys about the issue at hand.

Jerry B.


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## jackson74 (Dec 10, 2014)

Ha Ha Jerry B.

I enjoy reading the discussion and learning... I just like to find out what general census is on things I do not know that well, then make an educated choice... With some many deals right now I am trying to knock out some of the important items I need. I bought my router table out of the sole need to glue up some panels...

Thanks for the welcome and all the help!


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

jackson74 said:


> Ha Ha Jerry B.
> 
> I enjoy reading the discussion and learning... I just like to find out what general census is on things I do not know that well, then make an educated choice... With some many deals right now I am trying to knock out some of the important items I need. I bought my router table out of the sole need to glue up some panels...
> 
> Thanks for the welcome and all the help!




Jackson 74,
That's what the forum is all about and is so valuable to those of us that participate, we need to be able to share what we are doing and be able ask questions without fear of being seen in a negative light, it took me awhile to learn that but once learned, the forum became more valuable to me.

Jerry B.


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