# Is insert plate necessary?



## joel74 (Jan 21, 2011)

I'm planning to mount a router directly to my 3/16" thick cast aluminum table saw extension to serve as my router table. (Inca 2100) It has a "rib" network under the top which serves to strengthen it. In the center is a 7" circular rib section where I'll mount the router... without a plate. Is this advisable? 

Which routers should I consider? I'd like to be able to change bits and adjust height from the top of the table. Is there a router with 2 easy-attach bases so I can dedicate one base to the table and easily/quickly pull the motor portion and use it in the alternate base for hand routing?

OR, for $500, I could buy the Freud Router Table System which INCLUDES their 3-1/4 HP router, FT2200E. (No above table controls on this model.) I'm sure it's an excellent router but does anyone have experience with their table/fence, etc? Looks a little small and flimsy to me.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and advice.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

joel74 said:


> I'm planning to mount a router directly to my 3/16" thick cast aluminum table saw extension to serve as my router table. (Inca 2100) It has a "rib" network under the top which serves to strengthen it. In the center is a 7" circular rib section where I'll mount the router... without a plate. Is this advisable?
> 
> The only way I can think of for doing this is to take the baseplate off the router and use it as a drilling guide from the underside of the table and using the original screws, or a little longer version of them, to mount the router to the table. Then you'll have to drill a hole in the table for your bits and you'll have to countersink the holes for the mounting screws to get them flush with the table. Bit changes will be difficult, I would say you'd need a 2 wrench type collet and you'll have to lift the bit all the way up to be able to get at the collet. When you adjust bit height, you'll have to go under the table unless you pick a router with above table adjustment capability.


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## jschaben (Jun 21, 2009)

joel74 said:


> I'm planning to mount a router directly to my 3/16" thick cast aluminum table saw extension to serve as my router table. (Inca 2100) It has a "rib" network under the top which serves to strengthen it. In the center is a 7" circular rib section where I'll mount the router... without a plate. Is this advisable?
> 
> Which routers should I consider? I'd like to be able to change bits and adjust height from the top of the table. Is there a router with 2 easy-attach bases so I can dedicate one base to the table and easily/quickly pull the motor portion and use it in the alternate base for hand routing?
> 
> ...


Hi Joel - I can't see any reason it wouldn't work. Most aluminum plates are 1/4" thick so I don't know if there would be a concern about stress cracks forming around the bolt holes. Remember countersinking the heads further thins the material in a stress area. Would probably be better to use an end mill or forstner bit to get a flat bottom countersink and use pan head fasteners. I'm pretty sure a tapered countersink would invite cracks.
As far as routers go, I think PC, Craftsman, Bosch, Ridgid and Triton offer above table features on their 2HP class routers and for larger, 3+ HP, Triton is the only one I'm aware of at this time.


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## kenrg (Jul 20, 2009)

Joel, If you are looking for a router there are several Freud FT1700 2 1/4 hp (fixed base) at about $139.00 and also FT1702 (c/w fixed and plunge bases) at about $169.00 right now on Ebay. Unless you are swinging big bits to do cabinet door panels in one pass, these units are very good, with bit change and hieght adjustment above table. I have a FT1700 and am very happy with it, and I paid $279.00 for mine.


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## jschaben (Jun 21, 2009)

kenrg said:


> Joel, If you are looking for a router there are several Freud FT1700 2 1/4 hp (fixed base) at about $139.00 and also FT1702 (c/w fixed and plunge bases) at about $169.00 right now on Ebay. Unless you are swinging big bits to do cabinet door panels in one pass, these units are very good, with bit change and hieght adjustment above table. I have a FT1700 and am very happy with it, and I paid $279.00 for mine.


+1 on the 1700/1702's for table use. I have had the 1700 in a table for about a year and a half and have been very satisfied with it. I didn't mention it before as it's not in current production (that I'm aware of) so I wasn't sure of the availability.


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## Zurt (Oct 27, 2010)

Some Woodcraft stores are still sellng the Freud FT3000 for $199. I think this is the best deal anywhere. Above table bit change and adjustment, 3 1/4 HP, full speed range, etc.


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## jlord (Nov 16, 2009)

Hi Joel,
To get above the table bit changing you will have to drill a large radius hole to fit the bent wrench into. Most router plates have a provision to use different sized inserts. You will have to machine for this if you want this feature. It is an unsafe safe operation to run small bits in a large hole that's the reason for the different sized inserts. 

I don't know what sized bits you intend to run in the future but you will be limited as to the size hole in your table. If you use a smaller center hole you will probably have to take the router out or reach under the table if you have room to change bits. If you use your router table frequently or different profile bits this can get old after awhile.


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## iamwelty2 (Dec 27, 2008)

Are you going to incorporate some kind of inserts? The Triton is a nice router with a above table crank.... autolocks....


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Joel

No big deal, just get the item below, than cut a hole in your table top so the insert rings will drop in the hole, you will need a 1/4" thick sub plate under the top with a rabbit on to support the rings..sub plate the same size as your router base now..

Aluminum Replacement Rings & Guide Pin

http://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shop...tacc1.html#All_In_One_router_plate_kit_anchor


I have one setup like it now and it's a 1/8" thick steel router mount plate, works great for me and it's on some hinges so I don't need to get under table top to change out the bits, or you can do the same thing for a 6 1/2" plate, just need to cut down a standard router mounting plate to 6 1/2" x 12" , very easy job to do .

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joel74 said:


> I'm planning to mount a router directly to my 3/16" thick cast aluminum table saw extension to serve as my router table. (Inca 2100) It has a "rib" network under the top which serves to strengthen it. In the center is a 7" circular rib section where I'll mount the router... without a plate. Is this advisable?
> 
> Which routers should I consider? I'd like to be able to change bits and adjust height from the top of the table. Is there a router with 2 easy-attach bases so I can dedicate one base to the table and easily/quickly pull the motor portion and use it in the alternate base for hand routing?
> 
> ...


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## joel74 (Jan 21, 2011)

Thanks for all the thoughts and ideas. 

John's cautionary reminder about countersinking the screws weakening the already thin 3/16" top has given me pause... Thanks John. 

How about this for Plan B?: 
The 3/16" cast aluminum top is strenghened by a network of 1/8" x 1" vertical ribs under it. In the center of the ribs is one circular rib of approx 7" diameter. (Looks like it was designed to be a potential "knock-out.") I could cut out the whole 7" circle, then rout-out an additional 1/2" x 1/4" deep area around it giving me a rabbet to catch a 1/4" "store bought" insert plate. (Hard to explain... this means that the 3/16" table top, and the uppermost 1/16" of the ribs would be gone in the rabbet area.) The rabbet would then consist of the ribs only. I'd probably then dedicate a 2-1/4 hp router – or at least it's base – to the table. (I have a shaper for large-bit work.) 

Would the ribs alone support the plate and router?

Anyone have this kind of setup now? Any thoughts/advice on Plan B"?

Thanks again for your much appreciated input.

Joel74


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Would the ribs alone support the plate and router?

Anyone have this kind of setup now? Any thoughts/advice on Plan B"?

Thanks again for your much appreciated input.

Joel74[/QUOTE]

Little late replying to this but I would say it probably should work. The ribs give most of the strength. One thing to consider, once you start down this road, you are commited. If it doesn't work you'll have to replace the top.


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## dovetail_65 (Jan 22, 2008)

You don't need a plate, heck Sommerfeld eliminated it on his tables. The router plate really just causes a big pain in the butt.

I drop in a router for the table and never take it out and never ever even touch the plate in years, so why even have it . So it can contract expand, catch the edge of wood piece you are milling, etc.

I say if you have a dedicated router go with no plate, its actually better.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi

Just my 2 cents,,I like the router mounting plate, it's a quick way to mount the router, it's true if you have one router you don't need to pop it out now and then..but if you have more than one WELL...
It's also true the Marc Sommerfeld has no plate, but if you look real hard you will see the pop in rings so he can use the bigger bits and the smaller bits.
Without the router mounting plate it's a hard job to get the rings just right.
Not to say anything about the height of the router bit, if you don't used a plate you are cutting the height of the bit by a bunch they only make router bits so long the norm.
I can go on and on why the plate is a good deal for most of router tables.. 

==========


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## dovetail_65 (Jan 22, 2008)

I hate the plates, ring are not plates and even sharpers have them, those I agree with, especially if it lets you get down to a zero clearance.

I guess it is the set up one prefers. I like the shaper feel and with the right router, table top and the bent wrench I can change bits as fast as anyone. 

I can go on about why plates are bad as well as you can go on about why they are good. I can only say eliminating the plate eliminates a lot of heartache. Just get the right router that works with the no plate router top you have. 

Plates made a multi million dollar industry and they are not actuality needed at all and for me just introduce a complete set of issues you need not even worry about.

If you are going to have a dedicated router table that you are going to design from scratch, eliminating the plate and accounting for that is well worth a look.

If you are going to have only one or even two routers and not a dedicated table, than heck yes look at the plates.


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## jlord (Nov 16, 2009)

dovetail_65 said:


> I hate the plates, ring are not plates and even sharpers have them, those I agree with, especially if it lets you get down to a zero clearance.
> 
> I guess it is the set up one prefers. I like the shaper feel and with the right router, table top and the bent wrench I can change bits as fast as anyone.
> 
> ...


The reason for the plates are to mount your router to & reduce the thickness at the router that a sturdy table top provides. Many tops are made from MDF that is 1" to 1-1/2" thick & this material will not last if you machine it down to 1/4" to 3/8" thickness that the plates are to mount the router. 

Without the top machined down at the router mounting you would loose much in height adjustment. You would not be able to use smaller profiles without a collet extension. If you had an all aluminum top such as the Sommerfeld you can afford to have a much thinner top & would not need a plate. Just the inserts would be all you need for zero clearance. Aluminum, Phenolic, & mdf need different thicknesses to achieve the same strength to stay flat over time. MDF the weakest of the three. Yes sometimes the plates can take some time to adjust but in some circumstances they are a necessary evil.


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## dovetail_65 (Jan 22, 2008)

Flip the top over, route out a recess for your router, done. 

The reason for the plates is actually get access to the router, to be able to pull it out easily.

There are at least two manufactures that do not use plates now.

Even if you used a 6" thick table, flip it over and recess 5.5". 

The material as you suggest can be problematic, but that was and is not the initial reason for an insert plate. The insert plate allowed you to get at the router without having to do the back breaking work of getting under the table and working upside down. I agree, MDF is not a good material to hold(especially at 3/8") any router that's for sure. And your idea totally has merit, but again in my mind not the initial reason(it is a reason) for developing a router plate.

Many tops back in the day were never mdf they were cast iron or steel. They even make cast iron tops now and still use plates with them. No way a plate is required for a cast iron table, not the one I have. The plate is actually weaker than my table top! If it was offered with no insert I would have chosen it, now I have to drop 250.00 on a matching cast iron plate because the one that is included is crap!! The table is cast iron the plate is not! Heck, I would have preferred just no plate at all. Total gimmick or a way for easy access? In this case because they do not even offer a no plate option I saw this as simply a way to have people go for the expensive accessory.


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

I vote +1 on the plate. In my 1-1/2" thick table, the 3/8" plate it lets me lift the collet above the table for changing bits, a convenience, while giving me 1-18" more bit height.


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## dovetail_65 (Jan 22, 2008)

Well yeah, it is the table material dictating you need a plate in that particular instance. Even thinner tables that do not need a plate for that reason are commonly sold with plates, for no apparent reason other than easy access or trying to get you to pop for a 300.00 lift.

Forget about the loss of having the collet above the table for a minute. You could get a material way less than 1 1/2 thick that would support the router fine, the the same material your 3/8 plate is made of maybe, but all across the table. Then you would not need the plate. But really don't you like being able to pull out the router? 

I guess my point is MDF is being chosen in the first place, forcing you to use a plate. no one in there right mind would mount a router under a 1 1/2" thick table, you could never get the bits above the table! Of course I agree with that! But many thicker material you can route out from under and keep support.

I would rather invest all that money on the plate and lifting device on a better table that does not require plate.

The answer of needing top get at the collet has nothing to do with a plate and everything wot choosing the table top material that requires a plate.

No biggie, I have no plate on one table and still have full access to my router and of course it is not an MDF table! In the end it is preference and I like the Sommerfeld idea and shaper type system, but a loss of access to the router collet is not a reason to say you must have an insert.


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## radar57 (Dec 11, 2010)

With all of the bantering back and forth it really comes down to personal preference. Experience will tell you what you like. If you are building your own table it most likely will not be your last. If you don't like what you build you will have another chance to perfect it in the future.


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## jlord (Nov 16, 2009)

dovetail_65 said:


> Flip the top over, route out a recess for your router, done.
> 
> The reason for the plates is actually get access to the router, to be able to pull it out easily.
> 
> ...


I have two phenolic tops & they both have phenolic plates with aluminum inserts for zero clearance. Even the plates have been machined down where the router is mounted to decrease thickness. The plates have never been out of the tables since the routers were first mounted to them, in fact they are bolted down. I have never needed to remove them for access to the routers that are mounted in the tables. While one reason some plates are removable for access to the router it is not the only reason. The other is to mount the router without loosing full usage of your bit settings. 

There are many different table designs on the market. Many decide to build there own. Not many have access to the tooling necessary to build a top out of material that will not sag while still being thin enough to get full range from the router. For these a plate makes the best sense.



dovetail_65 said:


> Well yeah, it is the table material dictating you need a plate in that particular instance. Even thinner tables that do not need a plate for that reason are commonly sold with plates, for no apparent reason other than easy access or trying to get you to pop for a 300.00 lift.
> 
> Forget about the loss of having the collet above the table for a minute. You could get a material way less than 1 1/2 thick that would support the router fine, the the same material your 3/8 plate is made of maybe, but all across the table. Then you would not need the plate. But really don't you like being able to pull out the router?
> 
> ...


Not many tables will stay flat using the same thickness across the board as thick as a plate is. A 1/4" aluminum mounting plate will stay flat while a complete table of same thickness will sag. The load span increases as you go larger. Just like floor joist in a house. Longer the span, the bigger your joist need to be to combat sagging.

These days you do not need to buy a $300.00 lift unless you want one. My Hitachi router has a Router Raizer installed that was less than $90.00. The other table has a Triton with a built in lift. Nether of these routers were expensive compared to some other models.

Even a table designed without a plate will still benefit from having the zero clearance inserts. It is not safe practice to run a small bit in a large opening. This is also what gives you access to the collet not the plate. I pop out the inserts to run the large raised panel bits. This also give full access to the collet to change bits from above the table using a bent wrench. While a cast iron top is a strong top all the cast iron tops I've seen still have ribbing underneath to help increase strength. Tops made with this material are not the majority sold & not many are made in the home shop. This is were the mounting plate shines in helping mate the router to the table.


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## jlord (Nov 16, 2009)

radar57 said:


> With all of the bantering back and forth it really comes down to personal preference. Experience will tell you what you like. If you are building your own table it most likely will not be your last. If you don't like what you build you will have another chance to perfect it in the future.


Well said Keith.


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## dieselboater (Feb 21, 2010)

*This is what I just bought*



joel74 said:


> I'm planning to mount a router directly to my 3/16" thick cast aluminum table saw extension to serve as my router table. (Inca 2100) It has a "rib" network under the top which serves to strengthen it. In the center is a 7" circular rib section where I'll mount the router... without a plate. Is this advisable?
> 
> Which routers should I consider? I'd like to be able to change bits and adjust height from the top of the table. Is there a router with 2 easy-attach bases so I can dedicate one base to the table and easily/quickly pull the motor portion and use it in the alternate base for hand routing?
> 
> ...


I am a relative newbie and strictly amateur hobbyist. However I just purchased my 3rd router. I finally moved up to a 1/2" Bosch for a table I made. I have not used it yet as I am waiting for a mounting plate. I bought it for the exact reason you are concerned about. It comes with 2 bases..1 for hand routing and one designed to be strictly dedicated for permanent mounting under your table. Motor swap out is a cinch in about 15 seconds.You also can easily adjust it from the table top and it has a micrometer.

I got it at Home Depot locally here in CT for $199 last week. 
It is a Bosch 2.25 HP Fixed-Base Router

Model # 1617EVSTB

Store SKU # 783925

I hope this info will be of assistance.


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## KenBee (Jan 1, 2011)

I am in the process of designing and building a new table and fence for my Milwaukee Model 5616-20 Router. It is to be a dedicated table router and will only be removed for cleaning when necessary. The motor slips in and out of the housing so easily I need not worry about bit changes if it comes down to that.

I am going to use a 30x18 inch section of 3/4" MDF with 1 inch angle braces on the bottom to shore up the strength and prevent sag also, as if a 13 pound router would cause 3/4" thick MDF to sag in the first place.

I am also going without an insert plate to further help with the overall strengthening of the top. If I decide to install an insert later it will be a round one made from 1/4" 2024T6 Aluminum with the diameter being only 1" inch larger than the router base. I doubt very much that I will ever use a bit larger than 2-1/4" so a 2-1/2" or 2-5/8" hole should be quite sufficient. 

I am going to build my fence based on a Pat Warner design from a pattern in Fine Woodworking magazine published a few years ago, with a few minor refinements.


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## TIM_THE_WOODWORKER (Feb 14, 2011)

What is the problem with using rings and milling lip in aluminum(cuts easily) for a triton router?Any comments appreciated.Thank You Tim


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## joel74 (Jan 21, 2011)

My top is only 3/16" thick. I don't think this is thick enough to mill a "lip" for insert rings to attach to. 

My router, a Makita 3.25hp 3612RB, has two screws in the base to which a guide adapter plate attaches for PC guide work. I'm thinking I could remove the original base plate and mount the router directly to the aluminum top. Then have more adapter-like inserts milled with various inner hole sizes and swop them out as needed using the two base screws. Still have "rings" but they'll attach to the router, not the table. 

Any thoughts/advice about my new idea?


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## Tempest (Jan 7, 2011)

9 Piece Router Base Brass Inserts


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## joel74 (Jan 21, 2011)

*HF inserts*

Thanks Tempest for the Harbor Freight link. I bought their set of brass inserts today. Drop them into my Makita guide adapter plate and I'll have the smaller hole problems solved. In fact, I'll only need 2 of the 7 rings in the set. But, at $12.00 for the entire set, it sure beats having someone mill 2 new plates for me. Now I just have to enlarge one of my 2 adapter plates with an approx. 2.75" hole for my 2"-2.5" bits.

Thanks again. Joel


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## tucsonlou (Feb 16, 2011)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> joel74 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm planning to mount a router directly to my 3/16" thick cast aluminum table saw extension to serve as my router table. (Inca 2100) It has a "rib" network under the top which serves to strengthen it. In the center is a 7" circular rib section where I'll mount the router... without a plate. Is this advisable?
> ...


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi

Here's just some of the ones I use on this router table, and yes it has 1/8" thick plate..

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## joel74 (Jan 21, 2011)

Thanks for the photos Bobj3. However, I'm confused about how your inserts are held down. And, how/when is the clear plastic piece used?


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

HI joel


They are press in fit and most of the time the fence is over them but if not I put a little bit of clear tape over the edge to keep them in place.

The Plastic is just one more drop in base plate that is used on a other table and the pop in rings are used in the same way..

The big (wood) ring is just a support ring that is in place on the bottom side of the plate ,for the clear plastic mounting plate when I use the smaller pop in rings..(for brass guides or to choke down the hole size) for the smaller router bits.
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joel74 said:


> Thanks for the photos Bobj3. However, I'm confused about how your inserts are held down. And, how/when is the clear plastic piece used?


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