# Producing projects with the aid of the guides



## Doak (Mar 20, 2009)

*"Bob and Rick say "More than 90% of all operations using the router can be done with the table-mounted router".*

It has been some time since this thread was introduced to the this forum. And I suppose it was due to the statement presented above when I expressed some disagreement with the contents. 

There has been a great deal of postings on how to make guides but very little project material produced with the aid of the guides. Yes I have seen some effort to master the use of the guides, so I will have to repeat what I have been saying for some time now "90% of all router users do not use the guides and 99% of all users never use the large guide". I recall one user who did use the guide. His method was always to use the same guide, say 3/4" with a 1/2" cutter that always gave him a 1/8" off-set.

Thee is more to using the guides than simply using straight cutters and it is a method that is simple to use once we have a change of mind as to how they can increase the versatility of our router. IMHO template guides are designed to be used in the plunge mode where the cutter, in most instances can be seen during the process and not hidden in the router table.

Template Tom


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi

I need to agree with Bob and Rick 

The router table is just a device to hold the router for you 
Just like a table saw,,we have all seen Harry's table saw it's just a frame that holds a power hand saw just like a router table..

Many know I have the ski jigs it's just a poor man's router table so to speak...the plunge router has a place in the shop just like a power hand saw but the table saw can do the the job just a little bit better just like the router table..but it comes down to what you want to make with router,,,

Make bowels or furniture  I don't know of one plunge router that can make a raise panel door easy ..some will say the plunge router is a safer than the router table I would say it's just like the table saw thing, it's how you use the tool 

Just one more note*** I'm sure that's why they made the big tank routers (3 1/4HP) to fit in the router table and have the power to turn the big bits..


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## Doak (Mar 20, 2009)

*Producing projects with the plunge router*



bobj3 said:


> Hi
> 
> I need to agree with Bob and Rick
> 
> ...


Bob
I am not saying all projects should be done in the plunge mode so why not admit that there are projects that are not suitable for completion in the router table. 
At least I have made the effort to show a collection of projects produced in the plunge mode and therefore if others like yourself are still persisting that 90% + of all routing procedures can be achieved in the router table then they are missing out on a number of routing projects, and also Missing out on greater safety with the use of the router. I have said this before Bob and do not tell me to go looking in your gallery for completed projects Let's see you produce a project with or without the aid of the guides.
Template Tom


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

TT

Will this do ..

I should know by now I need to be short with you.. and then just drop it ..

*"I need to agree with Bob and Rick"*


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Doak said:


> Bob
> I am not saying all projects should be done in the plunge mode so why not admit that there are projects that are not suitable for completion in the router table.
> At least I have made the effort to show a collection of projects produced in the plunge mode and therefore if others like yourself are still persisting that 90% + of all routing procedures can be achieved in the router table then they are missing out on a number of routing projects, and also Missing out on greater safety with the use of the router. I have said this before Bob and do not tell me to go looking in your gallery for completed projects Let's see you produce a project with or without the aid of the guides.
> Template Tom


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

Nice use of curves on the table, BJ..


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Jim

Thanks,,it's a drop down wings on a tea kart 

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BigJimAK said:


> Nice use of curves on the table, BJ..


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

WOW, Bj, you've certainly shut ME up, never in my long life have I produced anything to compare with your two pieces.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Thanks Harry

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## Ghidrah (Oct 21, 2008)

Bobj3
Did you use skis or a lathe to make the legs? My father has an old lathe 12" I think. I tried using it once for the legs of some end tables I made way back. Father ended up making the legs.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Ron

I did cheat on the legs, I got them from a lumber yard  they where made for a banister ..then just a little bit of work on the ends for the wheel ends ..

If you want to make your own you may want to take a hard look at the Router Crafter ,it makes it simple 


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Ghidrah said:


> Bobj3
> Did you use skis or a lathe to make the legs? My father has an old lathe 12" I think. I tried using it once for the legs of some end tables I made way back. Father ended up making the legs.


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## Doak (Mar 20, 2009)

bobj3 said:


> TT
> 
> Will this do ..
> 
> ...


Bob you are missing the point as to what I have been saying. I have no doubt that the material you have posted was not completed with the router in the plunge mode and in this instances I agree with you, some of the processes are best done in the router table. I have made many projects similar to what you have presented, which I have posted with a number of projects that involved a *number of processes* completed with the router in the plunge mode. 

This is not about what you and I have done with our router for many years when we thought the router table method was the only way to proceed. It is about finding new routing techniques with the aid of the template guides and introducing "Greater Safety Awareness" with the use of the router. Some of the projects posted I would not consider using the router table for all the processes that are required, you may think otherwise and show me I am wrong by simply producing them in the Router Table mode.

Bob If you take time to digest the material I have submitted and consider all the processes that are required to produce them you will find that less than 90% can be achieved with the router in the table.

With your negative approach as to how the router can be used is depriving other members of learning new routing techniques.

Template Tom


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## Doak (Mar 20, 2009)

harrysin said:


> WOW, Bj, you've certainly shut ME up, never in my long life have I produced anything to compare with your two pieces.


Harry

As you can see by my posting, Bj has not had that effect on me in fact just the opposite. 

The reason for my response to his negative approach is that he has deprived others of learning new routing techniques. He has not been willing to attempt the proper use of the guides and find that there are other methods of producing some of the *processes* required to complete a project.

I'll repeat what I have been saying for some time now "Keep using the same method you have been using for years and you will keep producing the same results"

All I have tried to do was introduce new methods of using the router, and you would have to a agree it worked for you all those years ago.

Template Tom


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

TT

Their is room for both ways on the forum, Bob and Rick's way and your way....>>>

I'm just saying I like Bob and Rick's way the best..  
That's what got me here in the 1st.place.. and why I stick around 

I should note,,Bob and Rick have been using your way along time,templates and guides and plunge routers..
Maybe you should stop blowing your own horn and get some of the videos and see what they have done . great stuff 

http://us.oak-park.com/catalogue.html?list=PAT--
http://us.oak-park.com/catalogue.html?list=PAT--&product=PJ071
http://us.oak-park.com/catalogue.html?list=DVD1--

Have a good one TT

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Doak said:


> Bob you are missing the point as to what I have been saying. I have no doubt that the material you have posted was not completed with the router in the plunge mode and in this instances I agree with you, some of the processes are best done in the router table. I have made many projects similar to what you have presented, which I have posted with a number of projects that involved a *number of processes* completed with the router in the plunge mode.
> 
> This is not about what you and I have done with our router for many years when we thought the router table method was the only way to proceed. It is about finding new routing techniques with the aid of the template guides and introducing "Greater Safety Awareness" with the use of the router. Some of the projects posted I would not consider using the router table for all the processes that are required, you may think otherwise and show me I am wrong by simply producing them in the Router Table mode.
> 
> ...


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Bj is not dumb, far from it, he has taken your methods on board and uses them when he feels that it's appropriate for HIM to do so.
You know perfectly well that I have endorsed your methods on this forum and elsewhere at every opportunity but have stated clearly that it is an ALTERNATIVE method, and an understanding of it gives one an additional method to choose from when solving a problem or simply making a new project.
It is, and always has been my opinion that your approach to grown men and women, especially those from overseas leaves a lot to be desired. If your desire is to spread your methods around the world for free, then regular photo shoots, similar to what I do is the way to achieve it as I've been telling you for the past several years. If however your aim is a commercial one then you must come out and say so and state what you are offering and at what cost.
I mean no disrespect when I say that you are still coming over as if you are still a school teacher, and here I must remind you of a "joke" that you told me years ago, "you can tell a teacher a mile away, but you can't tell him much!"


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## Doak (Mar 20, 2009)

harrysin said:


> Bj is not dumb, far from it, he has taken your methods on board and uses them when he feels that it's appropriate for HIM to do so.
> You know perfectly well that I have endorsed your methods on this forum and elsewhere at every opportunity but have stated clearly that it is an ALTERNATIVE method, and an understanding of it gives one an additional method to choose from when solving a problem or simply making a new project.
> It is, and always has been my opinion that your approach to grown men and women, especially those from overseas leaves a lot to be desired. If your desire is to spread your methods around the world for free, then regular photo shoots, similar to what I do is the way to achieve it as I've been telling you for the past several years. If however your aim is a commercial one then you must come out and say so and state what you are offering and at what cost.
> I mean no disrespect when I say that you are still coming over as if you are still a school teacher, and here I must remind you of a "joke" that you told me years ago, "you can tell a teacher a mile away, but you can't tell him much!"


Harry

No one has suggested that Bj is Dumb certainly not me, there is no doubt in my mind he has a firm understanding of how the router can be used in the router table. As to using the Plunge mode I have only seen one project (Elliptical Box) completed by him and I am not sure if he finished it in the plunge mode.

Regular photo shoots IMHO is not the method of getting others to understand how it can be achieved whether they be grown men and women or a class of students at school. "Here is a collection of photographs for your next assignment numbered 1 onwards Now go to it" The method of construction has to be taught. If I had presented you with a photograph when you asked how to produce the template for the Balloon clock I know you would have asked for more information. And Yes your little joke still stands regarding the teaching profession, which I still agree whole heartedly they do not want to be told there are safer methods of using the router, just the same way as Bj is reluctant to try the method properly (Plunge router without the use of the router table)

If I produced a commercial product full of pictures I'm afraid I would not make any money at it, Even DVDs showing how an article is produced must contain some teaching notes as to how the project constructed. All the time I was doing demonstrations at the wood shows was to draw attention to fellow router users what could be done with the router, not provide full details as to how it can be done. That section has to be shown and taught at a workshop or seminar which I was prepared to conduct.

I have appreciated all your support when you have backed me up on many occasions on the forum but I still have to disagree with you when it comes to getting the message across It has to be taught. As an Example producing the small door below.


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## Doak (Mar 20, 2009)

There is still more


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## Doak (Mar 20, 2009)

And still more


But there is still something Missing


Details of how it is done

Template Tom

Just as a matter of interest There are quite a number of procedures completed here and not one in the Router table.

So I still stand by what i have been saying that Rick and Bob are incorrect saying that 90% of all routing procedures are carried out in the router table.

And with that said I will not bother you again go on doing what you have been doing for years.

I will be available *link deleted* (against TOS) if anyone is interested in adding greater skills with their router.

Last Post from template Tom


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi TT

Very nice show and tell 

It looks almost like the CMT way once you have the template it's duck soup  but the templates are not cheap and not easy to make your own..

Here's one that is 5 times harder than your simple Oval box  ,done on the router table TT
http://www.routerforums.com/26249-post1.html

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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

I must make it clear that it has never been my intention to to upset or undermine Tom, on the contrary, I have in the past gone overboard promoting him and his methods but have never shied from telling him when I thought that he was going about things the wrong way, most of that was done in private as we used to live close to each other. Had he taken even a small amount of my advice he would no doubt by now be acknowledged world wide for his contribution to routing and probably have made some money along the way. Unfortunately that was not to be, because of stubbornness. Hopefully it isn't too late for him to re-assess the situation, in the meantime I must acknowledge the fact that although I have been routing since about 1974, it was only after meeting Tom that I really learned what a router was capable of.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

I thought that this discussion had finished, but I must reply to Tom's "final" post. To the best of my recollection, I designed and made the templates for my first balloon clock, with two exceptions, the raised edge was Tom's idea and the template for trimming the bottom flush with the head also trimming the top to take the pediment was fully designed by Tom because he was against me using the radial arm saw, bearing in mind that I was still in the learning stage at that time.
My next point is the best method of teaching new techniques, Toms, as presented on this forum, or my photo shoots where I include the design and making of required templates. This link shows an example of what I'm talking about.

http://www.routerforums.com/project-plans-how/14304-making-balloon-clock.html

I really can't imagine any member not capable of making a balloon clock. I do hope that Tom sees this post and at least tries my suggestion, I'm sure that no one will think any the less about him for having a re-think.

Edit.........I've just taken a peek at the above link and noticed that I made an error in stating the Imperial offset using a 1 1/4" guide and a 3/8" cutter, the OPENING in the template will be 7/8" bigger than the routed hole but the offset is actually 7/16"............that's Imperial for you!


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## RustyW (Dec 28, 2005)

Doak said:


> Last Post from template Tom


Tom this "last post" was probably your best series of posts yet. I like to keep an open mind and I route 3 ways. Table mounted, hand held, and hand held with the plunge router and guides using your methods. Which I learned from both you and Harry. I find it very safe and enjoyable. When planning a project it gives me another option to consider for completing the project. But it is not the only way. Hopefully you are not gone for good, as I greatly appreciate your input.


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## jschaben (Jun 21, 2009)

RustyW said:


> Tom this "last post" was probably your best series of posts yet. I like to keep an open mind and I route 3 ways. Table mounted, hand held, and hand held with the plunge router and guides using your methods. Which I learned from both you and Harry. I find it very safe and enjoyable. When planning a project it gives me another option to consider for completing the project. But it is not the only way. Hopefully you are not gone for good, as I greatly appreciate your input.


I agree with you Rusty. 
My Dad used to tell me "when elephants dance, the mice leave the floor, but stay and watch the dance steps." 
I'm pretty new to routing and saw posts of projects done with routers that I could never hope to achieve, but they started me thinking in a whole new perspective about how things can be done and the myraid of applications that I had never concieved of before.


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