# Snap-in window grids/mullions



## bladeburner (Apr 7, 2005)

Anyone know how to make these? I don't care for the ones for sale; they're too wide and plain.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

This is a OLD post and I saw a Guest viewing it.. so I said, I will put in a how-to-make -them..post,,,so others can see how to make them the easy and safe way.


Glass Window type doors can be tricky to make and the mullions are the hard part..very small parts,(narrow parts),,the key is to use the right bit set and the right jig (shop made push blocks are the keys to making them easy)
Marc Sommerfeld sells the best video I have found how to make them, he will show you how to from sq.1 to the finsh door, ( with full glass or glass panels with mut/mullions)


DVD/GlassPanelDoors
http://www.sommerfeldtools.com/item.asp?n=dvd2&d=118&b=1

many more great videos below
http://www.sommerfeldtools.com/list.asp?d=118&p=1

DVD/GlassPanelDoors
http://www.sommerfeldtools.com/item.asp?n=dvd2&d=118&b=1

He also sell the best bit set for this job.. 
DVD/GlassPanelDoors router bit set.
http://www.sommerfeldtools.com/item.asp?n=03003&d=85&b=1
http://www.sommerfeldtools.com/list.asp?d=85&p=1


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## Charles M (Apr 10, 2006)

bobj3 said:


> He also sell the best bit set for this job..
> DVD/GlassPanelDoors router bit set.
> http://www.sommerfeldtools.com/item.asp?n=03003&d=85&b=1
> http://www.sommerfeldtools.com/list.asp?d=85&p=1
> ...


Obviously I am biased, but I would argue this point. The bits you linked to require three cuts and leave a gap in the end of the door from the groove for the plastic retainer. The Freud version makes a tenon that not only fills the gap but also adds strength and it only takes two cuts:
http://www.freudtools.com/p-126-glass-panel-cabinet-door-bit-set.aspx


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Charles

I new you would 

The over size slot cutter is used for two jobs,,,1st. to put in the slot and then to remove the back side of the "mut/mullions" parts...for a full glass or 4 or more glass parts.

Here's how it work: 

Mill the cope and pattern cuts first, then use the slot cutter to cut the groove for the rubber panel retainer. 
The edge of the pattern cut will ride on the bearing of the slot cutter bit. 
When you cut the slot in the rails you can cut the slot the full length of the stock. 
When you cut the slot in the stiles you need to set up reference points to stop and start the cuts so they are hidden from view on the top and bottom of the doors..

Do get one of the video just for kicks it's only 10.oo bucks and you see what I mean...

I will say the Freud bit set would be great for a one part glass door But many doors that have glass in them have more than one paine in them.(4 parts the norm or more),("mut/mullions type,stain glass type for just one of them) ( that's why I recommend the CMT 
( sommerfeldtools set) it will do both types with one set for 130.00 bucks unlike the Freud for 140.oo bucks...

From Amazon at " Freud 99-286 $140.00"

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Cabinets Doors 
http://www.thomasvillecabinetry.com/Products/GlassDoors.aspx


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Charles M said:


> Obviously I am biased, but I would argue this point. The bits you linked to require three cuts and leave a gap in the end of the door from the groove for the plastic retainer. The Freud version makes a tenon that not only fills the gap but also adds strength and it only takes two cuts:
> http://www.freudtools.com/p-126-glass-panel-cabinet-door-bit-set.aspx


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## Charles M (Apr 10, 2006)

bobj3 said:


> Here's how it work:
> 
> Mill the cope and pattern cuts first, then use the slot cutter to cut the groove for the rubber panel retainer.
> The edge of the pattern cut will ride on the bearing of the slot cutter bit.
> ...


Bj,

You'll have to help me out on this one. How does what you describe above compare to making glass doors with the Freud set:

Step 1. Mill the cope and pattern cuts
Step 2. Oh yeah, there's not a Step 2. No $10 DVD required.

And what holds the joint together?

An in regards to making SDL (simulated divided lite) grills, any set can do that.

And the Sommerfeld Tools bits are made in China while Freud is made in Italy. 

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Charles

  
"I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree." I think you'er right 

But do get the video I'm sure it will open your eyes to a new way of doing the job.. (the easy and fast way and SAFE way ) 

Have a good one Charles 


"It's fine to disagree with other members as long as you respect their opinions." 
MIKE
Senior Moderator


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OTHERS that sell the same set...▼

http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?FamilyID=8206
Best Price is from Amazon
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000P4NSUK
http://www.cheyennesales.com/catalog/products/855_803_11.htm
http://www.mikestools.com/cmt-glass-panel-door-set_1474.aspx

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Charles M said:


> Bj,
> 
> You'll have to help me out on this one. How does what you describe above compare to making glass doors with the Freud set:
> 
> ...


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Charles 

Just added a snapshot  and some links to other web sites that sell the same item.

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## Charles M (Apr 10, 2006)

That's cool but I still don't understand how you can see that design as somehow superior. The Freud version does exactly the same thing but in fewer steps and makes a stronger joint. Oh yeah, and the Freud set allows the use of a more readily available size of glass molding.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Charles

Well it comes down to making the "mut/mullions" parts ,that's the hard part.

It looks like your bit can't do that,,,because it's all in one bit...
The mullions lets say can't take on the slot that the bit would put in because of the size, most are only 1 1/16 wide the norm....it's true they can be wider but then that's what BladeBurner did want to make or use .
http://www.routerforums.com/11233-post1.html

Or did I miss read that...?

I have not made the wide ones b/4 but it lookls like it would take a min. of 2" wide board it order to make them with the Freud bit...and it would make the door look just a bit out of wack..."chunky " "mut/mullions parts"


....


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Charles M said:


> That's cool but I still don't understand how you can see that design as somehow superior. The Freud version does exactly the same thing but in fewer steps and makes a stronger joint. Oh yeah, and the Freud set allows the use of a more readily available size of glass molding.


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## Charles M (Apr 10, 2006)

Bj,

The lite (pun intended) just came on for me. Actually the OP was looking for SDL snap on grilles but your point is valid. Except that the minimum width of the muntins with the Sommerfeld/CMT set must be at least 1-1/8" wide. For a true divided lite this is WAY too heavy (that was the OP's complaint). It should be done with bits designed for that purpose like these:


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Charles

Thanks but I don't see the slot for the rubber panel retainer...that the bit would put in place..

Tell you what send me your address (in a PM ) and I will get you a DVD to view, on me  

Then lets talk again 





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Charles M said:


> Bj,
> 
> The lite (pun intended) just came on for me. Actually the OP was looking for SDL snap on grilles but your point is valid. Except that the minimum width of the muntins with the Sommerfeld/CMT set must be at least 1-1/8" wide. For a true divided lite this is WAY too heavy (that was the OP's complaint). It should be done with bits designed for that purpose like these:


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## Charles M (Apr 10, 2006)

bobj3 said:


> Hi Charles
> 
> Thanks but I don't see the slot for the rubber panel retainer...that the bit would put in place..
> 
> ...


Rubber retainer in a classic divided lite door? Surely you jest! 

Which raises the question: How do you hold it in with the CMT/Sommerfeld set? I guess I thought you were implying that with theirs you did not need the groove and with our you were forced to cut it. If you have to make a slot in the muntin for the retainer bead then I'm back to not understanding the advantage.

Theirs allows for different thicknesses of glass and that's the only reason it is made the way it is. Ours only allows for 1/8" glass (why would you use anything else) but has all of the advantages I mentioned earlier.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

HI Charles

Hope this helps

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## Hamlin (Dec 25, 2005)

Charles, 
I think what Bob is pointing out is the way to use just 1 pane of glass instead of multiples. Am I right Bj? Or have I misread?


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## Charles M (Apr 10, 2006)

Hamlin said:


> Charles,
> I think what Bob is pointing out is the way to use just 1 pane of glass instead of multiples. Am I right Bj? Or have I misread?


Yeah, except the image he just posted is a knock off of the divided lite bits I posted a little earlier and doesn't have the groove he said he wanted:








As I said, they all can be used to make SDL overlay grilles.

Here's the long and short as I see it: Bj pointed to Sommerfeld as selling "the best bit set for this job". I challenged that we have one that does all that Sommerfeld's does and has advantages over it. From there it seemed to devolve into confusion. The Sommerfeld/CMT and the Freud will all make glass doors, they can all make divided lite doors and they can all make overlay grilles. Ours only requires two passes and makes a stronger joint while theirs can accommodate different thicknesses of glass. So the choice is up the the user as to which of those fits their needs.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Charles M

I used part of your posted image because it's was quicker to edit the picture than make a new one  ( thanks) plus I could show both ways with one picture, Ken is right, just showing how to make the glass doors both ways..with one picture.. 

Using one glass panel is the easy way to make divided lite doors but making the M & M's is the hard part, cutting the back side off the parts so they can fit and hold the glass in place and give the look of DL cabinet doors, the M & M don't need to be strong they just need to sit in place for the look...
I was also pointing out, you don't need to put in the M & T joints and trim them with a chisel,, I for one just hate to go back and clean up joints with hand tools that's why I'm using a router for the job, I know sometimes you can't get by without using one in the corners..but it's just not the clean same look.

I know using the Freud bit I can make the M & M parts and take the parts to the table saw/band saw and remove the back so I can put in one glass panel but it's one more tool I would need to use and I have done that in the pass and I can tell you it's a bit scarey to push a small part like that by the saw blade , it's wants to tip over and nail the part and jam and take off across the shop, I have made jigs to do just that on the table saw but I can do it all right on the router table with the CMT bit set...and it's not to tricky or scarey...

I guess it all comes down to each his own way....but that's all I was trying to say,,, do it the safe way and the easy way if you can...many,many ways to skin the cat on this type of job to get it done.. 




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Charles M said:


> Yeah, except the image he just posted is a knock off of the divided lite bits I posted a little earlier and doesn't have the groove he said he wanted:
> 
> As I said, they all can be used to make SDL overlay grilles.
> 
> Here's the long and short as I see it: Bj pointed to Sommerfeld as selling "the best bit set for this job". I challenged that we have one that does all that Sommerfeld's does and has advantages over it. From there it seemed to devolve into confusion. The Sommerfeld/CMT and the Freud will all make glass doors, they can all make divided lite doors and they can all make overlay grilles. Ours only requires two passes and makes a stronger joint while theirs can accommodate different thicknesses of glass. So the choice is up the the user as to which of those fits their needs.


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## Charles M (Apr 10, 2006)

Hi Bj,

The picture of the divided lite was just to show what I consider the best way to make narrow muntins. For full lite or simulated divided lite with the plastic retainer I still recommend the 99-286:

















Notice the similarity to the cut made by the one you recommended?:









And to the CMT version:









Now if you want something really cool the recoverable bead is the way to go:


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## karateed (Feb 7, 2006)

Hi Guys,

You know what I think? (do you have a choice, I'm going to say it anyway.)

I think you both are doing a job different ways and I for one am grateful we can have these different perspectives. Sometimes a post goes a while and it seems like an argument but I can see you 2 are understanding each other better as the post goes along.

Essentially what you've both done is educated all of us that are lesser skilled in a couple of different methodologies in woodworking and I for one think that's great.

Keep the friendly debates coming and keep us learning, that's what I say....

See, told you I was going to say what I thought.....

Ed......


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## Hamlin (Dec 25, 2005)

karateed said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> You know what I think? (do you have a choice, I'm going to say it anyway.)
> 
> ...


Well said Ed. 

To be honest, I've never done such a job myself. Now, after reading, (had to reread several times at first), I fully understand what Bj, and Charles are saying. Did I learn something? You betcha!! :sold:


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Charles

Thanks for the info, I would like to try that bit set out, what's the going price on that set ?,, or will I need to take out a new loan on my house to get one   ?, it almost looks like a high price door set...(1 3/8" to 1 3/4" thick doors)

Just a note ***

I did find the price on the bit, thanks

http://www.freudtoolsonline.com/Recoverable_Bead_Glass_Door_Bit_Sets_s/443.htm


the price on that one...$$$ 194.00 bucks





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Charles M said:


> Hi Bj,
> 
> The picture of the divided lite was just to show what I consider the best way to make narrow muntins. For full lite or simulated divided lite with the plastic retainer I still recommend the 99-286:
> 
> ...


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