# For the love; not for the Love of Pocket Holes



## Steven Owen (Aug 14, 2017)

It's somewhat surprising to see some of the bitter debates over the merit of pocket holes. They are the good, the not so bad and the ugly of the wood working world for some people.

I think the Kreg Jig HD works well for some outdoor projects. They can be easier to work with for face frames and cabinets.

I will never use a pocket hole for joints that are visible in any way shape or form, even if it's meant to be decorative. There's a lot nicer ways to complement a piece with decorative joints.

What's your take on pocket holes? Love them, hate them, can't live without them?


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

I don't often use them. I have never trusted the long term effectiveness of a screwed joint but in some cases they are a good way to get the job done. I just have the drill bit and about a $10 drilling jig that you clamp onto a board but for how much I use it it's good enough for me.


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## kp91 (Sep 10, 2004)

I find pocket holes very handy for projects. I have used them in end tables, benches, storage boxes, and the like with success over the years. I use them also as a substitute for clamps, adding a couple of them to hold pieces as they are being glued up.

For heavier duty joints, I still use dados, dowels or biscuits (yes, I still use biscuits), or floating tenons. 

I think it is funny how tools have a following. First biscuits were awesome, then they fell out of style to router cut floating tenons, then pocket holes came into fashion, now they are frowned on. Now you have to have a Festool Domino just like Stickley and the others used in their works...


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## CharleyL (Feb 28, 2009)

I have no favorite, and will use whatever seems to be best for the purpose at hand.

I won't use pocket hole screws where they can be seen. I also always use glue along with them, but they sure speed up assembly where I do use them. I rarely use dowels, but still use biscuits where appropriate, but I use them for joint alignment and I usually avoid gluing them. I've had to remake a pine table top that developed biscuit shaped dents in the top after the glued in biscuits had thoroughly dried two months after the build, so since then, biscuits don't usually receive glue. 

I have a Leigh FMT Pro jig that I use for M & T work, but also use it for floating tenon mortise work when a truly floating tenon seems more appropriate. I do not own a Domino jig or Mortise Pal, but still own a Beadlock jig. If I use dowels I have a Dowel-It 1000 jig, but I also rarely use it or dowels for joint assembly. The last three times that the Beadlock has been used has been when it was loaned out to a former student or close friend who didn't have mortising capability for their project, since it only requires a hand drill and a clamp to get good floating tenon joints. 

Charley


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

I'm with all the guys above, I have a small pocket hole jig, and use it for face frames, don't do much of that anymore, and biscuit jointer with biscuits for alignment, Bead locks for M&T's , for the little I do of that , I have a doweling jig for dowels,can't remember the brand.

I like the lock miter ,drawer miter, rebates and dados, on the table saw and router. Splines are good , don't use any pin nails except on Jigs, Screws and plugs along with glue I use quite often, kind of a hold over from working as a carpenter.

The pocket hole joint is not my first go-to joint, just depends on the operation
Herb


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## Steven Owen (Aug 14, 2017)

I used the KregHD's to assemble the legs and frame for the cedar BBQ tables I made for my Kamado. It's held up well for 5 years without any issues. I wasn't aware of floating tenons. Cedar is too flimsy to create trust worth Tenon joints. 

Domino would have been stronger. So far the Kreg HD's have held up to the abuse. I also used the KregHD for the sheld shelving. The KregHD's are holding 500 lbs without any issues after 3-years. 

For a lot of outdoor projects where the holes can be hidden, they have been great. The standard Kreg pocket screws never get used for anything but face frames and occasionally for drawer bottoms on box jointed or dovetailed box joint. They're faster than doweling a drawer bottom and cleaner than using a saw cut dado for the drawer bottom.

Supporting rails for countertops are a good place for pocket screws too.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

There indispensable to me , but I haven't used them for a furniture scenario yet . I love my pocket hole jig and wish I knew about them years ago .
Funny , as I used to look at the Kreg pocket hole jig in stores and had no idea what they were for .
I had to add numerous pieces of wood for my tub/shower , and the pocket hole was a life saver imo


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## MT Stringer (Aug 15, 2012)

I use the Kreg pocket hole jig for face frames and drill the holes where the cabinet sides will not be seen. Glue and screws for me.

In one form or another, I am approaching 100 cabinets built with face frames.

I started with the basic K4 jig. I also have the one holer and the two holer for drilling on the job.

Yeah, I got a jig...a Mikey version of the Kreg jig, only lightly modified! :surprise::grin::grin::grin:


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

Your the Pocket hole King in my book ,Mike. If there were a trophy for using pocket holes ,you would get it. I have never seen anyone use, and devise so many pocket hole jigs set ups as you do. 

Herb


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Pocket holes are a wonder for face frames. Of course, that's only if your cuts are absolutely square. But I don't like using them on anything that's goint so show. There's no rule against combining them with dados and rabbets to make something look great. If they can be concealed, they are terrific. And I also respect those who don't consider furniture fine if it has any metal connectors in it at ll. Seems a personal preference matter to me. But I'm done with face frames any other way. My pocket hole frames are square and perfect every time.


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

Steven Owen said:


> What's your take on pocket holes? Love them, hate them, can't live without them?


I was taught from very young, you only use screws in something you may want to take apart later. I never use screws.


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## Steven Owen (Aug 14, 2017)

MT Stringer said:


> I use the Kreg pocket hole jig for face frames and drill the holes where the cabinet sides will not be seen. Glue and screws for me.
> 
> In one form or another, I am approaching 100 cabinets built with face frames.
> 
> ...


I might copy the first jig you have for the K4. You did a good job with that set-up.

The K5 is a bit disappointing from a quality perspective. Kreg dropped the ball on their design. 

The wings are cheap and easily crack with a slightest knock. They used a cheap plastic on the wings to cut cost. The clamp on the K5 is very finicky for an Autoclamp.

I plan to buy a Festool Domino, I already have the Jessem dowel jig, and the router table will open up even more options for jointing.

I'll probably end-up reducing the number of projects where I'll use the Kreg pocket hole jig.


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## mgmine (Jan 16, 2012)

If it can be done with a pocket hole then that's how I'll do it. To make cabinet frames any other way is insanity. I can knock off a cabinet in an hour that if using standard old school joints would take me 3 hours. It would take me longer to set up my mortising machine than it would to make a frame.


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## DonkeyHody (Jan 22, 2015)

My wife got me a Kreg jig several years ago for Christmas. I was thinking to myself that it was a shortcut and real woodworkers use time-tested methods like dowels and mortice/tennon joints. I used it first for a few projects that weren't important, just thrown together. It was so quick and easy and strong that I began to use it more and more, but always backed up with glue and always where it doesn't show. I still don't use pocket holes in furniture, but for everything else, it's just the thing. Just like Rick, I used it to install blocking when building a new shower. I used it outside on the fence and inside on cabinet carcasses but not yet for face frames. I'll never be without one, and a LOT of screws.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Interesting discussion of what is clearly one of the neat innovations in woodworking. I've also noticed that quality often declines a little as products move through their lifecycle. My K4 setup is on a chunk of ply and sits, ready to use, right next to my workbench. Amazing how many of the screws it takes to build something, so packages of 500 sit nearby. Definitey find the square drive screws are easier to use than the Phillips. But one more time, the results depend on making certain the cuts are exact 90s, so My Wixey gets a lot of use. No reason to believe those blades will hold their adjustments over time. Be fussy, fussy, fussy about the blade angle!


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## Knothead47 (Feb 10, 2010)

I have a knock-off of the Kreg system. It is basically a one hole deal that I got real cheap. I have supplemented the screws that came with the kit with screws from Lowe's. Haven't used it but for a few small projects. I did see where someone made a table top by joining the boards with pocket screws. If the holes are going to be visible in any way, there are matching wood plugs that you can buy.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

For assembling stiles and rails together , are pocket holes not normally used? I guess they could be done with biscuits or dowels


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## dovetail_65 (Jan 22, 2008)

I have done stiles and rails and used both, but only on square edge type. Pocket screw, biscuits and many other methods like M&T, Festool domino, dowels and more can be used for square edge(and probably more) stile and rail.

I mostly used cope and stick stile and rail method in the past though. The cope and stick profile gives extra glue surface so only glue is needed, nothing else. I have made floating raised panel within a cope and stick rail and stile that have endured 20 years of opening and closing and slamming shut and they are fine as can be, glue only.

Today the styles have changed so cope and stick isn't as prevalent for kitchen cabinets as it once was, still a great choice and in style for many current interior designs though.

So many ways to get the one job done whether encasing panels for cabinet doors or just making face frames. *For me pocket screws are really more suited to face frames than a stile and rail for a door. *

Here is a frame and panel for square edge profile using nothing but glue to connect the rail and stiles. It is very simple and strong:

http://www.woodmagazine.com/woodworking-tips/techniques/joinery/frame-and-panel-door-construction


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## Job and Knock (Dec 18, 2016)

mgmine said:


> If it can be done with a pocket hole then that's how I'll do it. To make cabinet frames any other way is insanity. I can knock off a cabinet in an hour that if using standard old school joints would take me 3 hours. It would take me longer to set up my mortising machine than it would to make a frame.


Tried a Domino? Much, much faster than "old school" (i.e. proper) joinery and far stronger than a pocket hole joint, especially in sheet goods

Personally, even though I have a jig, I don't like pocket hole joints. Too many bd experiences where guys have made-up stuff with them which required reworking or rapiar when it comes to site especially if the sheet material is MFC (melamine) or MF-MDF (melamine-faced MDF)


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Speaking of dominos , I think I'll pick up FesTools domino joiner tomorrow . Always said I'd buy one tool a year , I think I'm slipping


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## Steven Owen (Aug 14, 2017)

Job and Knock said:


> Tried a Domino? Much, much faster than "old school" (i.e. proper) joinery and far stronger than a pocket hole joint, especially in sheet goods
> 
> Personally, even though I have a jig, I don't like pocket hole joints. Too many bd experiences where guys have made-up stuff with them which required reworking or rapiar when it comes to site especially if the sheet material is MFC (melamine) or MF-MDF (melamine-faced MDF)


It's not just the pocket hole industry. Dowels have similar problems in MDF too. 

MDF can be a hard material to work with. It's unforgiving with minor mistakes. 

DowelMax keep pumping the dowels hard trying to convince people to use dowels in joints where they don't make sense.

A lot of MDF veneered furniture using dowels tends to creek and rock. Drilling too many holes in MDF and particle board tends to weaken the joint. 

The same joint done with a single domino in MDF is stronger and much more solid than the same joint done with 3 1/4 inch or 3/8 dowels.


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## mgmine (Jan 16, 2012)

Never tried a Domino but it will give me something to watch on YouTube. As far as the pocket hole goes I just can't say enough good things about them. I have made complete cabinets with them and done so without the screws showing.


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## N'awlins77 (Feb 25, 2011)

One of my favorite tools.


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## Steven Owen (Aug 14, 2017)

mgmine said:


> Never tried a Domino but it will give me something to watch on YouTube. As far as the pocket hole goes I just can't say enough good things about them. I have made complete cabinets with them and done so without the screws showing.


That's the key thing with the Pocket hole joints is to use them in places where they won't be visible.


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## mgmine (Jan 16, 2012)

What I have found is that when placing them where they can be seen can't be avoided Durham's water putty makes them almost impossible to detect.


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## Steven Owen (Aug 14, 2017)

mgmine said:


> What I have found is that when placing them where they can be seen can't be avoided Durham's water putty makes them almost impossible to detect.


Anytime I think a pocket hole is going to be visible, I’ll immediate switch to dowels, tenons, dominos, lap, bridal joint, ect...


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## old coasty (Aug 15, 2014)

Haven't made a pocket hole joint without glue. Too scarey at the end or edge of boards to trust just a screw.


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## Steven Owen (Aug 14, 2017)

old coasty said:


> Haven't made a pocket hole joint without glue. Too scarey at the end or edge of boards to trust just a screw.


Gluing will not make any significant different in a butt joint through end grain. 

It might buy you a couple hours to save your goods before the joint fails. 

They’ve done tons of professional testing on Canadian wood working and Fine Wood Working. Glue a pocket hole did nothing to add additional strength or to prevent failure.

It would depend on the purpose of the project. I wouldn’t use standard pocket screws for anything holding more than 350 -400 lbs of weight. 

Nothing over 750 lbs for the KregHD in 1 1/2 inch hardwood and 500 lbs in Softwoods.

As long as you stay within the weight tolerance of the pocket screws your joints should last for a very long time.


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## MT Stringer (Aug 15, 2012)

Most of my pocket hole joinery is attaching face frames to cabinets. I always use glue along with the screws. The screws (little clamps) pull the frame to the cabinet. Makes for a sturdy cabinet. I see no need to change. Note that that is for the cabinets where the screw holes won't be seen.

And they work great for attaching the drawer fronts to the drawer. :grin:


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## kp91 (Sep 10, 2004)

Steven Owen said:


> Gluing will not make any significant different in a butt joint through end grain.


I respectfully disagree. My personal observations as well as others show the opposite. Put a layer of glue on the end grain first, wait a few minutes to let that suck in, then add some more. You'll be surprised how much strength it adds.

I wouldn't use it by itself, but add a couple of screws and you have a pretty solid joint

Glue strength testing


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Durham's water putty: https://www.amazon.com/Durham-Donal...06368828&sr=1-4&keywords=Durham's+water+putty, 8 bucks. Thanks for mentioning this, I haven't been happy with what I've been using, and dowels are dorky looking.


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

Big Box stores and hardware stores carry it too. Same price.


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## TenGees (Sep 12, 2012)

dovetail_65 said:


> ...Here is a frame and panel for square edge profile using nothing but glue to connect the rail and stiles. It is very simple and strong:
> 
> Simple frame-and-panel doors in 30 minutes | WOOD Magazine


Dovetail, I've made several cabinet doors like this, using white one-side hardboard for the panel. Fast, cheap, light and not bad looking for shop cabinets etc. I even made cabinets for either side of my laundry tub like this. I don't glue in the bottom until I'm done finishing the frames... slide in the panel and glue the bottom in.


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## Steven Owen (Aug 14, 2017)

TenGees said:


> Dovetail, I've made several cabinet doors like this, using white one-side hardboard for the panel. Fast, cheap, light and not bad looking for shop cabinets etc. I even made cabinets for either side of my laundry tub like this. I don't glue in the bottom until I'm done finishing the frames... slide in the panel and glue the bottom in.


Mafell has a Doweller that’s better than domino for plywood cabinet builds. The Mafell does a lot of thing the LR 32 Cabinet jig can do. It does a better job jointing the edges and face boards on plywood sheets with it’s template. You can also use it to drill shelf pins too.

A lot of people are probably not aware of the Mafell DD40P. It’s a far better value than the less functional DF 500 Domino. 

https://www.timberwolftools.com/mafell-dd40p-duo-dowel-system

You’ll build 6 shelves with the DD40P in the time it takes to calibrate the Festool LR 32 System.


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## kp91 (Sep 10, 2004)

That's a whole lot of tool. I still use dowel centers, or the Beadlock guide (If you just use 2 drill holes it makes a fantastic dowel drill guide)


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## Steven Owen (Aug 14, 2017)

kp91 said:


> That's a whole lot of tool. I still use dowel centers, or the Beadlock guide (If you just use 2 drill holes it makes a fantastic dowel drill guide)


It’s a serious tool for series cabinet makers. Anyone building kitchens would fall in love with the Mafell given it accuracy and speed. It beats aging badly waiting try to configure a DowelMax set-up.

It’s not a competitor for the Domino XF 700 XL. It is a better choice than the Domino DF 500.


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## dovetail_65 (Jan 22, 2008)

So you are saying that you would choose the Domino XF 700 XL over the Mafell double dowel?


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## Steven Owen (Aug 14, 2017)

dovetail_65 said:


> So you are saying that you would choose the Domino XF 700 XL over the Mafell double dowel?


My answer is more complicated.

For larger projects, yes. I see the Mafell Dowler as a competitor to the DF 500. I’d probably buy both the 700 and Mafell at some point.

For beds, doors, outdoor projects, and dining tables the larger and longer tenon joints on the DF 700 are a better fit. Festool also has the connector system for the 700 that allows you to create joints that can be separated for easy breakdown and moving.

The connector system is a given for bed rails, dining tables, and large pieces that require the ability to take apart the pieces for moving. 

I’d choose the Mafell doweller over the smaller DF 500 and the LR 32 System in a heartbeat.


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## Steven Owen (Aug 14, 2017)

dovetail_65 said:


> So you are saying that you would choose the Domino XF 700 XL over the Mafell double dowel?


I’ll do my homework first before making a final decsion. The plug-it connection issues and the issues with the Kapex are not inspiring a lot confidence in future Festool purchases outside of their dust extractors. 

The DF 700 and the OF 2200 are the two best tools they sell. The plug-it connector issues are pretty silly for such a costly tool.


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## dovetail_65 (Jan 22, 2008)

Steven Owen said:


> I’ll do my homework first before making a final decsion. The plug-it connection issues and the issues with the Kapex are not inspiring a lot confidence in future Festool purchases outside of their dust extractors.
> 
> The DF 700 and the OF 2200 are the two best tools they sell. The plug-it connector issues are pretty silly for such a costly tool.


I have zero plug it issue so I dont get that. My OF 2200 has had a plug it on it for 3 years and every tool I own , including my Makita track saw and and DeWalt routers have them.

I have had two plug it go bad in 9 years, that better than a lot of electric cords on some tools. I love the plug its and it changed the way I work, I could never go back to cords all over my table. I work at a table and it is a 5 second change with dust hose and electrical cord, I will never go back from the plug its, even if I never buy another Festool. Heck, if they lasted a year I wouldn't go back and still use them, but as I said I just dont have issue with the newer white internal plastic plug it's and those have been out years already..

I have 15 plug it extension ends in a drawer and about 20 of the internal plug it sockets in their various types so when I buy a new tool I can switch it right over.


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## Steven Owen (Aug 14, 2017)

dovetail_65 said:


> I have zero plug it issue so I dont get that. My OF 2200 has had a plug it on it for 3 years and every tool I own , including my Makita track saw and and DeWalt routers have them.
> 
> I have had two plug it go bad in 9 years, that better than a lot of electric cords on some tools. I love the plug its and it changed the way I work, I could never go back to cords all over my table. I work at a table and it is a 5 second change with dust hose and electrical cord, I will never go back from the plug its, even if I never buy another Festool. Heck, if they lasted a year I wouldn't go back and still use them, but as I said I just dont have issue with the newer white internal plastic plug it's and those have been out years already..
> 
> I have 15 plug it extension ends in a drawer and about 20 of the internal plug it sockets in their various types so when I buy a new tool I can switch it right over.


The biggest problem with buying Mafell is lack of a Canadian reseller. You’re always taking it on the chin for tariffs. 

If it needs to get repaired, where do you send it. I’m a home user that makes furniture part time for extra income. I don’t have a business where I can write off a $2000 dollar equipment. 

Mafell would be easier to buy if one of the many online Canadian Tools resellers would carry them.


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## dovetail_65 (Jan 22, 2008)

I dont get it, you send in you tool to the same place I do its not different being in Canada or the USA for Mafell:

Mafell- North America


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## Steven Owen (Aug 14, 2017)

dovetail_65 said:


> I dont get it, you send in you tool to the same place I do its not different being in Canada or the USA for Mafell:
> 
> Mafell- North America


Maybe it’s in context when you compare it with Festool. I can bring a Festool Domino to one of three dealers in my city and get it repaired locally. I don’t have to ship it off to the US. I don’t have to buy $50 shipping and $50 in shipping insurance to send it to the US for repair if neeeded.

The Mafell Doweller is mechanically simpler than the DF 700. The domino rotate and has to pivot the bit back and forth. 

One could argue there less to go wrong with the Mafell. It high end set of drills integrated into a body similar to the domino.


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## BobbyK (Feb 10, 2021)

I would love to know the secret of keeping my work pieces flush when joining with pocket screws. I drill the pocket holes using my Kreg jig, after making sure the jig and drill stop are set properly. I set up the pieces to be joined, and I carefully place the screw into the center of the hole. Then I drive in the screw. When I'm finished, the edge of the piece with the pocket holes/screws has moved ever so slightly, like a 32nd or so, off the edge of the other piece. So the force of the screw pulling the pieces together is causing the pieces to move relative to one another. What can I do to stop that movement?


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

What you are describing is what occurs when your end cuts are not perfect 90 degrees. If you don't have a Wixey digital angle finder to set up your blade, get one on Amazon today. That will handle one dimension of mismatch. They cost about $30, have the new AAA batteries, and then use it before EVERY CUT.

The other has to do with a slight error in cutting across the grain at the end. If your workpiece is not exactly 90 to the blade, it will shift when you tighten it down. Note that it is the 90 to the blade, not the miter slot.

Attached are two pictures, the first is of the Wixey, the second is a Woodpecker saw setup gadget that checks blade alignment with the miter slot. If this is off, check your saw instructions for setting it up properly. If the slot and blade are not perfectly parallel, you will get a cut that isn't going to line up properly when you join the rail to the stile.

I know this because the first time I used the Kreg setup, I had the same problem. After I figured it out, things went better.

The miter gauge you use can also be a culprit. When cutting face frames, I use a Rockler sled that has angles from zero to 55 degrees. The secret was to use a large draftsman's triangle set against the teeth on each visible edge of the blade, then adjust the swing fence to the edge of the triangle. Once set, I moved the crosshair over the zero mark, calibrating it perfectly. Cheapo miter gauges are often off square. Even the good ones need to be checked out for being 90 to the blade, which blade must be 90 to the to the slots. Last picture is of the Rockler sled, which I LOVE using.

The fence doesn't play a role in face frames, but using that pretty little Woodpecker gauge, I set the fence so it is about 4 or five thousandths further from parallel at the far end. This keeps rip cuts from getting squeezed and kicking back--no fun at all.


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## BobbyK (Feb 10, 2021)

DesertRatTom said:


> What you are describing is what occurs when your end cuts are not perfect 90 degrees. If you don't have a Wixey digital angle finder to set up your blade, get one on Amazon today. That will handle one dimension of mismatch.
> 
> The other has to do with a slight error in cutting across the end piece. If your workpiece is not exactly 90 to the blade, it will shift when you tighten it down. Note that it is the 90 to the blade, not the miter slot.
> 
> ...


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## BobbyK (Feb 10, 2021)

Thanks. That makes quite a bit of sense for larger pieces I've cut on my table saw. It's a 1993 vintage, cast iron Craftsman that is new to me, and I need to perform that check you recommend. I have reviewed the manual for instructions on doing it. But, I also experience the issue when using narrower pieces cut using my miter saw. I'm pretty confident that those cuts are square.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

BobbyK said:


> Thanks. That makes quite a bit of sense for larger pieces I've cut on my table saw. It's a 1993 vintage, cast iron Craftsman that is new to me, and I need to perform that check you recommend. I have reviewed the manual for instructions on doing it. But, I also experience the issue when using narrower pieces cut using my miter saw. I'm pretty confident that those cuts are square.


Hi, Miter saws are rarely that accurate. If it has a blade tilt, you can check it with the Wixey gauge. That will give you the blade's vertical angle. But even my exceedingly accurate Bosch sliding miter does not make a perfect 90 on cross grain end cuts. There are adjustments for this on some saws, look to the manual for that info. 

I always make face frames and other assemblies using pocket scrrews (usually with some glue involved). With perfectly cut pieces, they go together perfectly flat and square every time. I have to admit that I didn't set up my present Laguna table saw. My first one had a wing that wasn't flat, and since I live about 90 minutes away, they said, bring the saw in. When I arrived, they'd set one up perfectly for me. They even brought out machined steel straight edges to check for flatness (near perfect). Although I check everything regularly, the factory adjustments have held ever since.

When I got that saw, all of my work improved immediately, well, along with the Wixey.


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## old55 (Aug 11, 2013)

Welcome to the forum @BobbyK


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## sreilly (May 22, 2018)

Agreed on the table saw setup/checkup. You can find many good videos on YouTube showing the process to get good results. The most difficult adjustment for most is squaring the table to the saw but follow the workflow and you you should be fine. It takes a bit of time but will make your results more accurate and satisfying. You can buy expensive tools to check this or use common shop tools. Try this video for starters 

Welcome to the forum.


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## mgmine (Jan 16, 2012)

BobbyK said:


> I would love to know the secret of keeping my work pieces flush when joining with pocket screws. I drill the pocket holes using my Kreg jig, after making sure the jig and drill stop are set properly. I set up the pieces to be joined, and I carefully place the screw into the center of the hole. Then I drive in the screw. When I'm finished, the edge of the piece with the pocket holes/screws has moved ever so slightly, like a 32nd or so, off the edge of the other piece. So the force of the screw pulling the pieces together is causing the pieces to move relative to one another. What can I do to stop that movement?


Are you talking about edge joining panels of wood or joining something like cabinet frames? In either case, some type of clamp needs to be used. Kreg has a clamp for just about every situation. When I'm clamping up frames I use a table that I have attached a length of wood against the side and the end. The wood is at a perfect 90-degree angle. I simply push the wood tight against the 90 degree corner and clamp and screw things together.
Amazon.com: KREG TOOL KHC3 Kreg Wood Project Clamp with Automaxx, 3": Home Improvement


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## Rebelwork Woodworking (Sep 11, 2004)

BobbyK said:


> I would love to know the secret of keeping my work pieces flush when joining with pocket screws. I drill the pocket holes using my Kreg jig, after making sure the jig and drill stop are set properly. I set up the pieces to be joined, and I carefully place the screw into the center of the hole. Then I drive in the screw. When I'm finished, the edge of the piece with the pocket holes/screws has moved ever so slightly, like a 32nd or so, off the edge of the other piece. So the force of the screw pulling the pieces together is causing the pieces to move relative to one another. What can I do to stop that movement?


Its not the cut, its the clamp...
Profesional use Ritter. Hobbyist have used similiar table models by Kreg


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## Rebelwork Woodworking (Sep 11, 2004)

Many moons ago at the woodworking show someone here in Missouri had developed a shop table that would flip up or flat according to the task. Would have been 10 years ago. Not sure if that table ever took off..


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## BobbyK (Feb 10, 2021)

Thanks for all the amazing input! Will get on the task of squaring up my saw to table to blade, etc. I will also incorporate the idea of a clamping jig to help limit movement. .While I am saddened to learn that my miter saw is not everything I thought it was, I am encouraged that I can probably solve my squareness problem by adjusting my table saw and then making a good sled.


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## Barry747 (Jun 16, 2011)

Although I don't do much with my inexpensive Kreg jig, I'll add my 2 cents from watching way too many YouTube videos. If you just can't quite get to 90 degrees, but fairly close, try a shooting board and plane. As long as your work piece is held tight to the board the plane will trim the end grain and give you a 90 degree cut that is dead on.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Barry747 said:


> Although I don't do much with my inexpensive Kreg jig, I'll add my 2 cents from watching way too many YouTube videos. If you just can't quite get to 90 degrees, but fairly close, try a shooting board and plane. As long as your work piece is held tight to the board the plane will trim the end grain and give you a 90 degree cut that is dead on.


With all my talk about perfect 90 degree cuts, I have to admit that I have never been able to get a perfect 90 with a shooting board. Haven't made one for some years. I make a lot of picture frames for my wife's paintings, and miter corners were an issue until she bough me a Lyon type miter trimmer. I cut as close to 45 or 90 as I can get, then use this horizontal guillotine to get a perfect, glass smooth cut. Just shaves off about a 16th or less. But I've gotten it down now so I can get what I want on the table saw. It helps to use a special Freud Glue Line rip blade. Makes a baby butt smooth cut ready for glue up.

Here's a pix of the miter trimmer. The blades are incredibly sharp. A bit of overkill for face frames, but nothing can match it for picture frames. Below that is a little frame clamp that really does the job for me. Because my miters are so exact, they square themselves up nicely. For any tiny misfits, I use a filler made in Australia, Timber Mate. which is available in many types of wood, that stains and finishes perfectly. Available on Amazon.


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## mgmine (Jan 16, 2012)

Equally important with a table saw is a good miter gauge and the gauge adjusted to your saw. You can't expect to get a perfect 90-degree cut if your gauge doesn't cut a perfect 90 degrees. A stop added to the gauge will also be a big help in getting all pieces the exact same length.


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## Rebelwork Woodworking (Sep 11, 2004)

I don't use a shooting board or a lion trimmer. When I make picture frames for chilli's restaurant specials I used a miter saw for 1 3/4× 6" frames. There is no wood putty in the furniture shop. You won't find any either...

If I can go around this with a Dewalt 706 and only be off by 1/16 at the end, your saws need to be adjusted..


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

The Lion trimmer is purpose built, and I have not found a custom frame shop that didn't have some version of it. It was designed for this purpose not long after the American Civil War. I use the carefully calibrated Rockler sled these days to cut the miters, so I don't really need the trimmer, and I can use a stop block for exact lengths. I also use a full kerf blade because the narrow kerf blades would deflect slightly when cutting miters. The amount of wood filler I use is miniscule, and I am a perfectionist.


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## Barry747 (Jun 16, 2011)

I'm a perfectionist too. That's why my shop has so many dents in the wall and I have a flat forehead. Actually, it shows more in my scrap bin. My problem is that woodworking is a hobby that I got into slowly while I was still part of the working world. Developing more from a life of DIY/weekend warrior stuff. As I got more interested and involved with woodworking, but having limited space in my basement at the time, and limited cash in the bank, when I needed a tool I'd buy an inexpensive one from a big box store figuring that if I used it enough I'd buy a better one. Needless to say, I tended to opt for another tool rather than an upgrade to any that I had. Here's my point, it's possible to do a lousy job with a good tool but it's more difficult to do a good job with a lousy tool. Please note, I said more difficult, not impossible. I actually wouldn't say any of my tools are lousy and I do spend a lot of time adjusting the tools that I have to make them as accurate as I can. For anything that actually cuts wood, like blades and bits, I have learned to buy the higher end ones. As a tool example, I have a Dewalt contractor table saw. For what it is, it's a great saw. For making furniture it does leave something to be desired. The miter slots in the aluminum top are not consistent along their whole length. They're off just enough to be challenging when adjusting miter gauges to remove the slop. Snug in one spot, a little loose in another. Cast iron tops don't have this problem. My band saw miter slot is a pleasure to work with.

What any of this has to do with pocket hole joinery is bit tenuous. The best that I can do is say that the closer to a perfect 90 degree cut on all of the pieces, the easier it will be to get the joint aligned. Yes, a good clamp will hold the joint aligned while inserting the screw but, again, perfectly cut pieces will help make a perfect joint. Darn, there's that word "perfect" again. Since I started this meandering post with that, I'll end it the same way as I continue to build up my scrap pile.


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