# no melamine



## sunnybob (Apr 3, 2015)

I'm about to build my mark 3 router table, but i cant find any melamine locally without buying a 10 ft x 4 ft sheet at really stupid money.
I do have some 12 mm (1/2" ) ply that is very flat and smooth.
Anyone tell me why I cant just use ply?


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Many here have used ply for their top. Use two layers for the top, MDF underneath, glued and screwed to the ply. I would also joint some trusses underneath to help keep it flat. Use Baltic Birch if you can find it. Use an aluminum mounting plate. Finish the top and and wax it.


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## sunnybob (Apr 3, 2015)

Tom, youre saying two x 12mm and then mdf? Total thickness must be approaching an inch?

I have a resin plate, but am under backing that with 4mm of aluminium so the plate doesnt sag this time.

Any particular type of wax?


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

sunnybob said:


> I'm about to build my mark 3 router table, but i cant find any melamine locally without buying a 10 ft x 4 ft sheet at really stupid money.
> I do have some 12 mm (1/2" ) ply that is very flat and smooth.
> Anyone tell me why I cant just use ply?


use it...
if you want to up the smoothness ante use grain filler...
light sanding...
and then begin the sealer/sanding/polishing between coats campaign...
smooth as glass and slick after waxing...


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## hawkeye10 (Jul 28, 2015)

Just a suggestion. You could use formica over the ply. It's smooth and would wear way better than melamine.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Johnson's paste wax. Use 3/4 (18mm) for both layers, you get about 1 1/2 inch thickness (36 mm). Heavier and the MDF helps keep it flat. Stick gave you the finishing instructions. I would also add edging of some sort to keep moisture away from the MDF. The weight is substantial with the MDF, which is why I'd add the trusses. Pre drill into the mdf for screws. Put the screws through the trusses by drilling a hole bigger than the screw head to a depth that stops the screw about a quarter inch into the ply. Pre drill MDF always or you will get a bump on top, or even a split. The MDF is for flatness, not structure. That's why I'd add the trusses.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

single layer of 18mm on top of a torsion box frame and a sheet of 5mm on the bottom...
skip the MDF...

http://www.routerforums.com/tools-woodworking/70377-duanes-torsion-box-bench-top-build-thread.html


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## mgmine (Jan 16, 2012)

Home Depot sells shelving in different lengths and widths.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

mgmine said:


> Home Depot sells shelving in different lengths and widths.


Bob is in Cyprus...


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

I've seen so many members complain over the years that their double laminated table top warped after they glued it together that I've started suspecting that it's the water in the glue migrating into the substrates that might be causing the warping. 2 layers is not needed. I've even seen Pat Warner say so, that the frame underneath is far more important that what you put on it. I built one table, used it for 3 years, then gave it to my son-in-law who's had it for 4 years and it is one layer of 5/8" melamine with 3/8" deep grooves in it for t tracks and it's still dead flat. Despite going from -45 to plus 40 each year. The trick is a good level frame under it. Theo (Joat) has a table that is at least 15 years old that is a single 1/2" ply that is screwed to a 2 x 4 frame that is still dead level he says. Theo didn't use an insert plate he just screwed the router right to the plywood. You lose about 1/8 to 3/16" of depth doing that as opposed to using a plate. The materials have a minor importance in the build. The engineering is what's the most important.


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## sunnybob (Apr 3, 2015)

I had planned on a heavy sub frame of 4 cross bars, but not a full on torsion box.

The table top is only going to be just under a yard square (90cm).
from these replies I may reconsider the construction.
but of course the torsion box cant be the entire area as I have to make a space for the router, So theres a 30cm x 25cm (12" x 10") central portion that cant be double skinned. Is that area going to negate the torsion box effect?

If so maybe a compromise of a solid level base and two layers of 12mm ply?


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

sunnybob said:


> I had planned on a heavy sub frame of 4 cross bars, but not a full on torsion box.
> 
> The table top is only going to be just under a yard square (90cm).
> from these replies I may reconsider the construction.
> ...


no..


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## tacomamacxtech (Mar 31, 2009)

If you use laminates (Formica is one brand), laminate both sides to keep it from warping. They have laminate without the decorative layer (which is melamine! Do you remember Mel-mac dishes?). All laminate consists of is multiple layers of kraft paper (paper bag material) glued under pressure. The laminate without the decorative sheet is called a "backer" or "balance" sheet and is used to eliminate warping of your "sandwich". (One or more layers of material.) Always use contact cement to adhere laminates.


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## timbertailor (Oct 4, 2009)

I built my torsion box into the router base, top and bottom. I do not recommend using MDF. Very hazardous you your health. Two sheets of baltic birch will work just fine.

I think I mentioned that it can get expensive making your own (melamine).


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## sunnybob (Apr 3, 2015)

i have no access to formica or other "do it yourself" finishes. this island is extremely limited on whats available.
I have even had to go back to the Uk to source a piece of aluminimum a foot square by 4mm.

Basic wood construction materials are plentiful, but finishing touches are not. 

without spending silly money, ply is my only option.

I can make a torsion box with 12mm ply top and bottom, but it will have to have the middlle section as a single layer to allow the router to work.


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## Ghidrah (Oct 21, 2008)

Both my tops are lam'd 3/4 ply, with hardboard both sides then formica both sides. The 2nd top was built in 03/04, I didn't truss either up, it might not be an issue if it were a small router or a big one and or base were removed after use. But who does that? I just checked mine and have a 3 1/2" long .022 gap center front of the base. While I don't have issue with the almost 3/128", (sag it should not be there), others might be vexed with not perfect. If I bought a factory built table I would expect absolute. 

When I replaced my RAS table 18+ yrs ago I did embed chain link fence tension bars in the lam, I was doing lots of arbors, trellises and flower boxes on the side PT and cedar can be heavy. It has held up, although it doesn't maintain 20 something lbs. of dead weight. I'm slobby sheik, had I contemplated sag when fabricating either RT top I probably would have thought "Meh, how much could it sag". After 12 yrs, of a 3 1/4hp PC and Bench dog lift 3/128 aint so bad.


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## sunnybob (Apr 3, 2015)

I've already learnt the hard way that table sag affects small pieces of wood. A long run of a foot or more passes over any valleys. But I do mainly small box sides, 8" and less, and they are small enough to ride up and down the surface.
Thats how i found my table wasnt flat,when a set of box joints came out angled downwards.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

I've never built a torsion box for a router table and probably never will. Theo didn't with his either. Neither of us have had issues building that way. You're talking about hanging a 12-15 lb/ 6-7 kg router from it, not park your car on it. A different VOE speaking. Never doubled the top lams, never sealed both sides. Still no issues ever in 40 years. If you attach the top to a solid, level sub frame with enough cross members to prevent sag then the top can't move. It is physically impossible. The construction is no different in principle from installing the floor in a house. If you use a wide enough joist on close enough centers and not over too long a span then it doesn't move. Just because it is a router table doesn't make it different.


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## sunnybob (Apr 3, 2015)

The router plate is faulty, 100% unarguable. Thats why I'm working on this. As Kreg have sent another, i want to beef the table so this one doesnt warp.
The table top, which is white melamine, has some very small rise and falls, discovered only after checking with the best straight edge I have. If I wasnt working with the plate, I suspect this would not impact my work, but as I'm going to work on it, I might as well do it properly.

My thinking is twofold. 

1, this table was made when I had a lot less knowledge than I have now, so I can see a couple of ways of improving it.

2, I dont want to spend hundreds making a construction that will become a family heirloom. I just want it to perform better than it does now.

I think I will compromise between the two extremes here. I'm not going to build a complete torsion box, it just seems too excessive for a table barely a yard square. But I will run 4 joists front to back across the base (much more support than it has now), on which I will lay 2 x 12mm ply sheets, glued and screwed. My garage doesnt suffer from damp, so I wont make any edging, just use a couple coats of wipe on poly to seal it.

Maybe a couple coats of wipe on poly on the top surface?

Its good to get other peoples viewpoints, thanks.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> I've never built a torsion box for a router table and probably never will. Theo didn't with his either. Neither of us have had issues building that way. You're talking about hanging a 12-15 lb/ 6-7 kg router from it, not park your car on it. A different VOE speaking. Never doubled the top lams, never sealed both sides. Still no issues ever in 40 years. *If you attach the top to a solid, level sub frame with enough cross members to prevent sag then the top can't move. It is physically impossible. The construction is no different in principle from installing the floor in a house.* If you use a wide enough joist on close enough centers and not over too long a span then it doesn't move. Just because it is a router table doesn't make it different.


but Charles!!!!
you did build a torsion box... aka floor joist w/ blocking.. aka your frame...
a torsion box build made w/ half lap joinery adds skill set..
you can halve the frame member thicknesses too..


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## timbertailor (Oct 4, 2009)

I do no recommend screwing the plywood together. This can cause warping and dimpling. Just glue them together on a flat surface like your table saw, good side down.


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## sunnybob (Apr 3, 2015)

No table saw.
(lol)


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

@sunnybob....

don't know how good of a grade your ply is but I thought you would like the rest of the story...

*
WOOD GRAIN FILLER:*

*Wood glue and sanding dust aka swarf...*

add the glue to the swarf till you have a slurry...
thin w/ water a wee bit if needed... 
Squeegee the slurry on to the wood and let it throughly dry.. 
sand the wood till smooth... max out at about 150 grit...
seal w/ lacquer or cut oil based poly (only once) and re-sand to 400 grit...
this may take several coats/sandings... use uncut after the initial sealing... 
wax the final application after final sanding...
don't save this swarf...
*
Polymerized oils or BLO and sanding swarf...*

add the oil/BLO to the swarf till you have a workable slurry...
Squeegee the slurry on to the wood and let it throughly dry.. 
sand the wood till smooth... max out at 150 grit...
seal w/ lacquer, shellac or cut oil based poly and re-sand to 320/400 grit...
*do not use water base poly* … it is not compatible w/ the oils or BLO
this may take several coats...
wax the final application after final sanding...
don't save this swarf...

*
Polymerized oils or BLO and direct sanding...*

Mix about 1/3 of each - gloss oil based urethane, oil and naphtha... 
Apply a saturating coat that you maintain wet for long enough to fully soak in (an hour maybe?)... While this coat is soaking in take wet/dry 320/400 sandpaper and wet sand the top... 
use a hard backed sanding block and sand in a circular motion...
This applies to the plywood RT top and not fine furniture... For fine WW sand in line...
This will create a slurry that will be worked into the smallest of pores... 
Let this dry overnight and repeat the next day. It won't take as long the second day as the surface will be mostly sealed... 
Let dry... 
Apply top coats...
Don't save this swarf either...

*Caution is required *to never lift the sanding block as the finish approaches dry or you will tear out the surface... 
End by going off an edge...


NOTES:

It takes a long time for boiled linseed to polymerize dry sufficiently for top coating... let it dry to the touch and this may take 3 to 4 days..
use polymerized oils as 1st choice... Tung oil is one... Varnish is another...

pre-cat lacquer is durable, water white and much easier to apply...
oil based varnish, straight, can be rubbed on with a rag and burnished as it dries. With this method you can apply as many coats as you like... Use light, thin coats, and allow it to dry between coats...
If you do opt for a varnish, make sure it is an alkyd-resin interior varnish, not a spar or marine varnish...

garnet shellac, you can leave as is or apply most any top coat. The point is shellac will stick to almost anything and most anything will stick to shellac. 
Shellac is an excellent barrier coat and will dry and adhere well to oil...
Two things, traditional shellac is not compatible with pre-cat lacquer. The adhesion is very poor with a pre-cat - you have to use clarified or wax-free shellac. The other thing is that shellac is a very poor topcoat. It is soft and has very little scuff resistance. Also, it comes in only one gloss level - high. The final thing worth noting about either form of shellac is that it cannot take heat. It will blister in prolonged, direct sunlight; even if top-coated, it will break the topcoat film. There is no easy fix for that.....


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

sunnybob said:


> No table saw.
> (lol)


Bosch G series in your future???


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Stick486 said:


> but Charles!!!!
> you did build a torsion box... aka floor joist w/ blocking.. aka your frame...
> a torsion box build made w/ half lap joinery adds skill set..
> you can halve the frame member thicknesses too..


The cross blocking is meant to distribute the load across more than one joist and to help prevent twisting under load of the joist as the load carrying capacity is reduced when the member is no longer vertical. I solid blocked the floor in my house so that I would have nailing edges at every plywood seam. Since I used rough cut premium grade full size D fir 2 x 10s I calculated that eliminating torsion was all I needed instead of adding load sharing. This a floor that has to hold up furniture, additional flooring on top of the subfloor, up to 10 adults at a time, and possibly several pets.

So I have to ask what exactly are you planning on putting on top of your frame that you need that kind of load bearing capability? I wasn't really being sarcastic before about parking a car on it because I would expect to be able to park a car on that structure, at least one wheel of one. I've never needed that kind of load bearing capability on my tables.


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## sunnybob (Apr 3, 2015)

Stick, a lottery win in my near future is all I can hope for. None of that stuff is gonna happen.

I've revisited my existing table.

I've upgraded the extraction by a significant amount, and checked the melamine carefully. I'm going to stick (hah!) with it and rebuild the base its on. I did a pretty rush job last time, and can see huge room for improvement regarding flat and square. The new plate and underneath alli support plate will go back into the top. I shall reduce the front back measurement by 30mm, as there is a large overhang at the front of the table, to take the router back by that amount closer to the rear extraction port

Anything else is going to cost me more than a factory table and I'm getting some really dirty looks from the family accountant.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> So I have to ask what exactly are you planning on putting on top of your frame that you need that kind of load bearing capability? I wasn't really being sarcastic before about parking a car on it because I would expect to be able to park a car on that structure, at least one wheel of one. I've never needed that kind of load bearing capability on my tables.


it has nothing to do w/ load bearing per say but primarily maintaining flatness under a host of conditions weather you use plywood or a phenolic table top... especially when the top bridges to the sides of a cabinet and a 3HP+ router w/lift is installed..... 
they are not difficult to build and lasts about forever.. saves on the material too...
I love the no later issues or need for rework approach...


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## timbertailor (Oct 4, 2009)

Stick486 said:


> @sunnybob....
> 
> don't know how good of a grade your ply is but I thought you would like the rest of the story...
> 
> ...


Now that is thinking ahead. Do it all the time but just did not come to mind.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Stick486 said:


> it has nothing to do w/ load bearing per say but primarily maintaining flatness under a host of conditions weather you use plywood or a phenolic table top... especially when the top bridges to the sides of a cabinet and a 3HP+ router w/lift is installed.....
> they are not difficult to build and lasts about forever.. saves on the material too...
> I love the no later issues or need for rework approach...


We'll leave it at not seeing eye to eye on the subject. BTW, I only use 3+hp routers in the table and -45C to 40C+ should cover most of the weather conditions except the sustained 100% humidity Dan has.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Oh-tay...

*SNORK!!!*


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