# pocket hole uses and feasibility



## g19fanatic (Apr 3, 2010)

Here's a link i happened to cross early this morning,

It gives PLENTY of examples on the different uses for pocket holes and the such. My question is whether or not their claims hold water... From your experiences, do pocket holes hold up under most circumstances like they claim? 

Another question, does anyone have a pocket hole jig that they've purchased? I've used pocket holes before (didn't know they actually had a name at the time  ) and all i did was drill a little bit perpendicular to the board first, then use that very small hole as a guide to form the countersink hole. Self tapping drywall screws do the rest.

Could just do like this guy does here too...


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## Mark Sternberg (Jan 16, 2010)

Personally I swear by pocket hole applications. I use mine constantly and yes they are very strong and quick to use. I also prefer to use the pocket hole screws because they have a cutting edge on the tip of the screw to help prevent splitting.


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## kp91 (Sep 10, 2004)

Paul,

I have the CMT/sommerfeld jig, and it's a great tool.


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## Metalhead781 (Jul 27, 2010)

I have a Kreg Jig and it works wonders. I've used it on just about all of the applications shown on on the link and others. I don't have that specific jig shown in your link, i have a slightly smaller setup without the dust collection and you have to reach behind to clamp it. At some point if i get more cabinetry work i may just invest the $800 for so on the machine or several of the master series jigs fixed to a jig table. The individual clamp on versions are no where near as efficient as the larger jigs and the same can be said going up to the freestanding machines. I even use the pocket screws on cabinet doors.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Paul

I have 3, one is the CMT type,one is the Kreg type and one is a shop made one that can be used on the router table... 
with a standard router bit..


You must think of the pocket hole fixtures as,, it's just a clamp system more or less  once the glue sets up and dries out the screw part of the system has done it's work more or less..

And like clamps they are not good looking, you can get plugs to hide the screw(s) but they are just clamps and look bad the norm..but they do the work you want them to do..clamp the lumber up for gluing..  I will say they are a great time saver

I would rate them as ,CMT is number one, Kreg is number two and the shop made one is number #3 but it's for the router table jobs ,unlike the other two.

http://www.routerforums.com/guide-bushings-templates/9660-jeff-pocket-hole.html
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g19fanatic said:


> Here's a link i happened to cross early this morning,
> 
> It gives PLENTY of examples on the different uses for pocket holes and the such. My question is whether or not their claims hold water... From your experiences, do pocket holes hold up under most circumstances like they claim?
> 
> ...


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## g19fanatic (Apr 3, 2010)

bobj3 said:


> Hi Paul
> 
> I have 3, one is the CMT type,one is the Kreg type and one is a shop made one that can be used on the router table...
> with a standard router bit..
> ...


if the purpose of pocket holes to use it as a clamp for glueing, isnt a butt joint really weak in comparison? 

how does it truly hold up compared to other types of joinery (albeit more time consuming to do...)?

thanks for your experiences!


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi

Very true it's just a butt joint but the clamp(s) is still in place..unlike most wood joints...it's very strong with the clamps in place..


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g19fanatic said:


> if the purpose of pocket holes to use it as a clamp for glueing, isnt a butt joint really weak in comparison?
> 
> how does it truly hold up compared to other types of joinery (albeit more time consuming to do...)?
> 
> thanks for your experiences!


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## g19fanatic (Apr 3, 2010)

bobj3 said:


> Hi
> 
> Very true it's just a butt joint but the camp(s) is still in place..unlike most wood joints...it's very strong with the clamps in place..
> 
> ...


I guess I never thought about that... 

From the looks of it, no one here has presented the other side of the story... which with the ppl who visit this forum, leads me to believe that pocket holed joints really do what they're advertised to do  

I will have to use some in the future and see for myself 


Oh and btw, what is 'jacking' when talking about pocket holes? Most places that discuss the cons of not using PH screws (vs let's say drywall screws) say that 'jacking' can occur and that PH screws eliminate this issue...


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi 

Screws,, I use both types drywall screws and the ones they make for pocket hole jigs (hole) if the stock is thin or hard I use the normal fine thread pocket hole screws but if it's plywood or pine I use the drywall screws that work well for me.., they are very sharp and will cut the threads easy..and the heads are almost flat under the head..  ( I use the sq.drive drywall screws that don't strip out easy like the phil.drive heads..) plus they are cheaper I buy them in bulk the norm,some have a drill point on them also..

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g19fanatic said:


> I guess I never thought about that...
> 
> From the looks of it, no one here has presented the other side of the story... which with the ppl who visit this forum, leads me to believe that pocket holed joints really do what they're advertised to do
> 
> ...


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## g19fanatic (Apr 3, 2010)

thanks bj for the excellent information!

i will have to look for the square drive screws at my next stop at lowes!!!


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## johnk (Aug 29, 2008)

I built some face frame cabinets on-site piece by piece. If it were not for pocket screwa, i could not clamp the face pieces to the panels - plus i have a very strong assembly.

Also I've built a couple of garden potting stations out of 2x and 1x cedar and exterior glue. Used pocket screws instead of Simpson Strong tie or other joinery. Very fast assembly and very sturdy. Also very inexpensive.


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## Metalhead781 (Jul 27, 2010)

bobj3 said:


> Hi
> 
> Screws,, I use both types drywall screws and the ones they make for pocket hole jigs (hole) if the stock is thin or hard I use the normal fine thread pocket hole screws but if it's plywood or pine I use the drywall screws that work well for me.., they are very sharp and will cut the threads easy..and the heads are almost flat under the head..  ( I use the sq.drive drywall screws that don't strip out easy like the phil.drive heads..) plus they are cheaper I buy them in bulk the norm,some have a drill point on them also..
> 
> =========


I've actually found that in a pinch standard drywall screws work really well but i will throw on a small washer for strength's sake. When I assemble a cabinet case i'll use 1 1/4" sheetrock screws with washers, setting the Kreg Jig for 3/4" material and the bit for the jig at 7/8". Because of the dadoes and rabbits are 3/16" deep in 3/4" plywood, with the glue it's super strong and the screws dont protrude. My first cabinet i put together with pocket screws i set everything to 1/2" material on the jig and used the appropriate 1" pocket hole screws. These actually protruded due to the nature of the plywood i was using and the fact that i had a 1/4" deep dado in ply that was just shy of 23/32 actual thickness. The narrower head on the 1" screw sank into the pocket hole a little too much. I also determined i needed to clamp it in place then use the screws. Good thing the project was painted.


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## Tisdai (Aug 29, 2010)

Ditto for the pocket hole kit , I already use square drive screws got  over the pozi bits jumping on the bit.


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## Grung56 (Jul 13, 2010)

I have made hundreds of outdoor projects using pocket holes and screws (Kreg) ... with NO glue. My feeling is that gluing any end grain is useless (unless you sand it first) because the glue soaks in, and if it does cure and adhere, it is only to the ends of grain which do not stand up under any abuse.
My experience is that in softer woods like pine and poplar and cedar, the coarse thread pan head screws in a properly calibrated hole, work very well without glue. In harder woods like oak, it is even better (but use fine threads).
....Greg


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## xvimbi (Sep 29, 2009)

Pocket hole joinery has been around for a while, e.g., it is commercially used in cabinet building for assembling face frames. Like others here, I have used it without any glue for making knock-down things or when I was just too impatient. These joints are bomb-proof. I would recommend getting the Kreg Jig R3 for $40 (with lots of screws). If you don't like it, chances are someone will take it off your hands. But I think you will see that it is a very handy way of producing quick and very stable assemblies. Cheers! MM


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Greg

Not using glue, is like putting on your shoes and not tying your shoe strings 
the glue will soak in and the 2nd. pass with the glue will fill the straws up on the butt end joints .

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Grung56 said:


> I have made hundreds of outdoor projects using pocket holes and screws (Kreg) ... with NO glue. My feeling is that gluing any end grain is useless (unless you sand it first) because the glue soaks in, and if it does cure and adhere, it is only to the ends of grain which do not stand up under any abuse.
> My experience is that in softer woods like pine and poplar and cedar, the coarse thread pan head screws in a properly calibrated hole, work very well without glue. In harder woods like oak, it is even better (but use fine threads).
> ....Greg


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## Gene Howe (Jul 10, 2007)

Marc Sommerfeld suggests a thin coating of glue on end grain, allowing it to dry (about 10 seconds with WWII) and then, gluing normally. 
It works for me. No joint failures yet.

I do believe that pocket hole joinery is as good as claimed. I have tightly clamped up pieces edge to edge and then run in the screws and had glue squeeze out. 
As far as using DW screws; I do use them but, I find that they tend to push the joint apart before fully seating. If you are aware of the tendency and clamp to compensate, you're ok. But if you don't you'll likely have a poorly fitting joint. Also, I use the coated #9 sq. drive screws.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Gene

Drywall screws, you need to use the ones with the drill bit point on them ,than they will drill the hole just right for the screw you are using and they will fully seat ..sometimes called Tek screws..

TEK Screws for Metal
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Gene Howe said:


> Marc Sommerfeld suggests a thin coating of glue on end grain, allowing it to dry (about 10 seconds with WWII) and then, gluing normally.
> It works for me. No joint failures yet.
> 
> I do believe that pocket hole joinery is as good as claimed. I have tightly clamped up pieces edge to edge and then run in the screws and had glue squeeze out.
> As far as using DW screws; I do use them but, I find that they tend to push the joint apart before fully seating. If you are aware of the tendency and clamp to compensate, you're ok. But if you don't you'll likely have a poorly fitting joint. Also, I use the coated #9 sq. drive screws.


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## Grung56 (Jul 13, 2010)

Creeping with the Kreg. Sometimes the angled screw pulls a 'rail' out of its coplanar alignment with the 'stile' -- even when it is clamped. 
I realize the problem appears to be that I haven't clamped it tightly enough, but it seemed at the time that it was. 
Any experience with this?
... Greg


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Greg

You can stake them in place with a SMALL pin nail, that will stop the creeping when you put the screws in place ... 

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Grung56 said:


> Creeping with the Kreg. Sometimes the angled screw pulls a 'rail' out of its coplanar alignment with the 'stile' -- even when it is clamped.
> I realize the problem appears to be that I haven't clamped it tightly enough, but it seemed at the time that it was.
> Any experience with this?
> ... Greg


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## jlord (Nov 16, 2009)

Fine thread screws work best for hardwoods & course thread screws work best for softwoods. I prefer screws with the built in washer head as it seats good on the step shoulder the bit makes instead of burying itself.

Kreg Jig® Screws and Plugs - Kreg Tool Company


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

Grung56 said:


> Creeping with the Kreg. Sometimes the angled screw pulls a 'rail' out of its coplanar alignment with the 'stile' -- even when it is clamped.
> I realize the problem appears to be that I haven't clamped it tightly enough, but it seemed at the time that it was.
> Any experience with this?
> ... Greg



Hi Greg,

I think someone earlier referred to this as 'jacking'.

I have not experience this as I make sure my clamps are tight.....

From the Kreg videos, this seems to happen to the piece the screw is going into, not the piece with the pocket hole.

Make sure the stile is clamped to the table.

Kreg show this on their demonstration on edge-banding.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi 

They make a fixture just for that job ,,,hold it down to the work bench, the one I have is about 12" x 12" that's inset (inlay) into the work bench..gives your you a 3rd.hand for holding the stock in place much better than the hand clamp type..(vise grip type)

Amazon.com: Kreg KBK-IP Kreg Bench Klamp Insert Plate: Home Improvement

http://www.amazon.com/Kreg-KKS-KBKSYS-Bench-Klamp-System/dp/B001DC9UQY/ref=pd_bxgy_hi_img_b


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

More important than holding the bottom faces even, they must be held touching/

The jacking or creeping occur when a small air gap foums between where the screw leaves the pilot and enters the target wood. Since the screw is at an angle, when it "brings it home" it lifts it along the way. Don't ask me how I know this. <g>


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi 

The error I run into most of the time, the drill bit is not set right or to say the stop collar is not set right, if you put some scrap stock under the board and drill all the way and not let the that little tit lift the stock away when you put the screw in place, I know they say it should be off the bottom by 1/8" but that little bit acts like a bearing letting the sock move off just a little bit, the drill bit on the end should pull that little bit up into the hold but most of the time it's just a little bump..I have also set the stop collar on the drill bit to stop short about 1/16" that helps some times...but most of the time I drill into the plastic into the jig to get that nice clean hole, it's only plastic or your holding jig base stock..

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BigJimAK said:


> More important than holding the bottom faces even, they must be held touching/
> 
> The jacking or creeping occur when a small air gap foums between where the screw leaves the pilot and enters the target wood. Since the screw is at an angle, when it "brings it home" it lifts it along the way. Don't ask me how I know this. <g>


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## RoyBullets (May 26, 2008)

+1 for the small Kreg jig. I built some nice little oak book shelves for the kids and used nothing but pocket screws to join it together. I never would have thought they would hold but I have been happy with the jig and the square drive screws.

As a tip, I did not buy the expensive Kreg clamp but the cheapo version of the same thing at Harbor Freight. Costs about 1/3 the price and works just as good.


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