# Jerry's Defense Of His Posts



## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

O.K. I guess that the time has come to talk about the difference in the way some of us think about what is important in regard to our interest in wood working. 

I probably am not posting this in the correct place on the forum so if the moderator decides to move it to where it should go, that is what he should do.

In the post just before this one I talked about the variations in cuts and what I have idone to learn about them and experiments to see how to remedy the error in them. I know and understand why I must drive some member nuts with my nit picking and zeal for accuracy that is of no value to those of your with years of wood working experience.

All of this stems from the way I think and who I am. I'm going to tell you about a subject that has nothing to do with wood working but does have to do with the subject at hand, or at least I think that it does. 

I used to be extremely interested in shooting and my interest took me into benchrest competion. At that time it was pretty much agreed to by people in that subject that only about one in 100,000 people that were interested in shooting cared anything about benchrest shooting and the accuracy that was required to compete in benchrest matches.

The average person that likes shooting and likes accuracy is usually very happy if his rifle will shoot five shots into three quarters of an inch at 100 yards and that is pretty good in case you aren't familiar with the subject. However, a benchrest shooter is not happy if his rifle is not capable of shooting five shot in a quarter of an inch at 200 yards.

The person that thinks in this level thinks about issues that not benchrest shooter don't even know exist. This interest does not make the benchrest shooter any better than the non benchrest shooter, it just makes him different. 

The quest for accuracy in woodworking for me starts with learning the limits of working with wood, working with tools. I had never even given wood working a thought in my life until three years ago when I was 71 years. My interest in detail has driven me to the way I have approched the subject and my ignorance about the subject has caused me ask question, try things that others would never try or care much about. 

I might suggest to members of the this forum to watch from now on and if you see a post from Jerry Bowen, don't read the post if you have labeled me as sort of a nut, but there will a small number of you that understand my approach to the subject and might enjoy reading what I am up to at the time.

So far I have begun learn the limits of working with wood. I just want to be able to stay as close to these limitations as I can with the tools that I have. For example my Dewalt 734 planer is a pretty good machine but it won't plane workpieces to the same thickness and this creates a problem when edge glueing parts for a desk top and so far is only remedied by sanding after all of the glue ups are done. The error isn't great but it is enough that the sanding must be done due what the project is . I have constructed clamps as shown in an earlier post and while the clamps do minimize the error but they ddon't elimiate it. I sure didn't know about such things when I bought the planer. It's a a great planer, but it not capable of doing perfect work, at least it will not plane parts within a couple of thousandths of an inch. it gets very close, but sanding is still required. I have learned that even if I sand the desk top to near perfection and let it set over night, the desk will not look like it did the day before. I am hoping that I can eventually seal the desk top before it gets a chance to move enough to ruin the quality of the sanding that was done. Don't know yet if I can do this or not, but finding out is just another interesting adventure.

Well got it said, and out of my craw. Hope it explains some of why I ask what I have asked and talked about the subjects that I have talked about.

Jerry Bowen,
Colorado City, TX


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## rwl7532 (Sep 8, 2011)

I can't say I read all of Jerry's posts.

I can say I look for them and enjoy them.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Jerry I see where you are coming from here. We have seen some machinists on the site with the same zeal for accuracy. That obsession when working with wood could either drive you crazy or ruin your enjoyment with working with wood. If you were a golfer and you tried and tried but could not hit a hole in one every try would you give up golf? If you pitched baseball and couldn't throw a strike every throw would you give up baseball? Some things don't lend lend themselves to absolute accuracy. However, trying to do the best you can every time you make something can take more than a lifetime to master. To me it's the road there that makes it fun.


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> Jerry I see where you are coming from here. We have seen some machinists on the site with the same zeal for accuracy. That obsession when working with wood could either drive you crazy or ruin your enjoyment with working with wood. If you were a golfer and you tried and tried but could not hit a hole in one every try would you give up golf? If you pitched baseball and couldn't throw a strike every throw would you give up baseball? Some things don't lend lend themselves to absolute accuracy. However, trying to do the best you can every time you make something can take more than a lifetime to master. To me it's the road there that makes it fun.


Charles,
I agree with you of course, when I was shooting benchrest I sure didn't win every match that I participated in, in face I won very few actually, but the fun of that game like golf and/or baseball is the quest for doing better and experimenting with ideas to see what works and what does not work and then sharing the thinking and/or results with others that share the same interest. At least that is what makes it so interesting to me, wood working I mean.

Jerry


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## thammons (Mar 26, 2012)

*Interesting*



Jerry Bowen said:


> O.K. I guess that the time has come to talk about the difference in the way some of us think about what is important in regard to our interest in wood working.
> 
> I probably am not posting this in the correct place on the forum so if the moderator decides to move it to where it should go, that is what he should do.
> 
> ...


I think what you are doing re accuracy is interesting, as is what you have to say about it. I enjoy your posts. I do hope you find satisfaction in pursuing such a high degree of accuracy.
Terry


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## barking spider (Dec 26, 2010)

I guess thats why some people hunt with slingshots, and others use hand grenades.


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## OPG3 (Jan 9, 2011)

Jerry, I thoroughly enjoy your posts. Your personality and your posts cause me to actually look for your posts. You sometimes consider things from a unique perspective and that for me is extremely thought-provoking. Wood movement due to moisture differential is a subject that could last a lifetime, and there are factors within that subject that could go on for years. Wood has some considerations that cause it to be somewhat unpredictable in some ways and extremely predictable in some other ways. Boards are going to expand and contract with minute differences even throughout the length of one piece of wood. Twists in grain, hard and soft spots (which make-up annular rings), even the history of that particular tree - are all going to affect wood movement. Certainly, your quest for precision has caused all of your readers to rethink how we do some things in woodworking. Yesterday, I made a template to use in making four curvilinear parts. The template is for me to utilize along with a workpiece on a router table with a bearing-guided bit to make the parts. These were things that my wife had determined a need for on one of her numerous and ongoing projects. I spent a couple of hours making the template and it worked like a charm - only for me to realize that the finished parts had a design flaw. That would make some people very disappointed, but for me; it is just "another day at the office".

Several years back, I had to adopt an entire new way of thinking; which I will attempt to explain here...
As an inventor / product developer I had to realize that it is a strong tendency of my personality to desire to be highly accurate (obviously Jerry - you are also in this boat). It is also a dreaded thought for me to fail. WHAT I HAD TO MENTALLY CONDITION MYSELF to was that there are millions of people that have ideas of how to accomplish a specific task or to improve something - be it a condition or a product. I now actually go into something looking for there to be some random (unanticipated) failure - SO THAT I CAN COLLECT DATA & LEARN FROM IT. The more products I develop, the better I am able to prevent failures. One of the topics that I love to endeavor is doing something that is necessary, yet previously considered as "THIS CANNOT BE DONE". Many of my inventions are such as this. 

Yesterday's product failed, so a new template must be made - but today I know something relevant that I did not know yesterday. To me this is where the fun lies, and it appears to me, Jerry - that you are very similar in that manner!

*PLEASE KEEP-UP THE GOOD WORK.* Hey! So what if someone laughs at you - isn't that why people tell jokes? Johnny Carson made a fortune with people laughing at him - you and I can also share in that fun!

By the way, it is great to see you back and active on this forum. I am very glad that your health is on the mend.


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

Jerry Bowen said:


> So far I have begun learn the limits of working with wood. I just want to be able to stay as close to these limitations as I can with the tools that I have. For example my Dewalt 734 planer is a pretty good machine but it won't plane workpieces to the same thickness and this creates a problem when edge glueing parts for a desk top and so far is only remedied by sanding after all of the glue ups are done. The error isn't great but it is enough that the sanding must be done due what the project is . I have constructed clamps as shown in an earlier post and while the clamps do minimize the error but they ddon't elimiate it. I sure didn't know about such things when I bought the planer. It's a a great planer, but it not capable of doing perfect work, at least it will not plane parts within a couple of thousandths of an inch. it gets very close, but sanding is still required. I have learned that even if I sand the desk top to near perfection and let it set over night, the desk will not look like it did the day before. I am hoping that I can eventually seal the desk top before it gets a chance to move enough to ruin the quality of the sanding that was done. Don't know yet if I can do this or not, but finding out is just another interesting adventure.


Wood moves, metal is stable. It's that simple. 
I've got a planer similar, and it'll plane wood to the same thickness, no prob. I adjust it, send ALL the pieces I'm going to use thru it. Then adjust it, send All the pieces thru. Repeat as necessary. And, unless you're a magician, you're going to need to sand the top regardless. 

As far as benchrest, I'd much rather plink soda cans at 100 yards with a .22, loads more fun.
But you don't need to pay attention to me, I'm just a 71 yo smart-aleck.


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## john880 (Aug 18, 2010)

A absolutely a great discussion, you guy's.

Communication  ,,,,,," The communication process is complete once the receiver has understood the message of the sender." Wikipedia

Jerry Bowen ~in this you have excelled, read every word. Thumbs up !!!!


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## Ironman50 (Jun 5, 2012)

You have a way with your words. The more detailed and the more accurate it is, the better. I have read some of your posts and learned from it. Keep them coming.


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## Harrison67 (May 30, 2012)

I look at it about the same way as you Jerry. My illustrious trade/livelyhood:dirol: as a Machinist, makes me cut every woodcut to within a couple thousandths, at least. If repeatibility is not happening, I'm not happy.

Most of the items I made at work were within tolerances of plus or minus .0005 mostly. Cut it close, then grind/polish to that perfect surface. It was rare to get a print with +/-.002 or +/-.005.

I've had large steel borings change location, and diameters shrink as much as .008 or more ,overnight due to shrinking from cooling. Most times, I'd have to make the finish cuts the next day. So, yes; steel and other metals move around too. Wood moves a lot more. But, you all know that.

I don't fret much about things like that nowadays, mainly because I'm not getting paid for it..:yes4::yes4: But, all cuts have to be square; or I can have a meltdown.

I don't have a way with words like most of you, but I like reading every word of everyone else s' posts. Even Jerry's.:haha:


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

Back to using the benchrest years for means to describe some of my background. The sport was started shortly after the second world war and evolved over the years. In the beginning all kinds of experimenting was being done to find out what made a rifle accurate, but over time the vast majority of shooters ended up with, for the most part, the same conclusions and almost identical rifles and shooting procedures. As you might guess, when I got into the sport in 1973 I approached it like I have done with wood working. Frequently when at a match other shooters would come by and tell me how much enjoyed seeing what I was doing. Keep in mind that one of the areas of my experimentation was with reading the value of the cross wind. Because of limited vision I never could read mirage. The average competitor with normal vision could read it and use it to their advantage by knowing the direction and intensity of the condition of from shot to shot and compensating for it. The real skill in tha sport is the ability to read the value of the wind. Mirage is not always present and flags are used when mirage is not running. I had to use flags which is a disadvantage when shooting against others that can read mirage. Consequently I was often experimenting at matches with other ways to read conditions. This vision issue never took away from my enjoyment of the sport, the same is true of my new found interest in wood working. 

We are all different some of us are much more analitical than others, but what every our temerment might be it never makes one pertson better or worse than another. I have found in my life that like temperments attact and opposites sometimes just don't click, that's the way it is, nothing wrong with it, but understanding the point sometimes makes life a little easier to understand.

Until next time,

Jerry


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Jerry, I sure hope you don't take my posts urging you to relax and just enjoy woodworking as criticism... they are not. Understanding the why is always worth while; it helps us to hone our skills. I just don't want you to get lost in the details and miss all the fun.


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## kp91 (Sep 10, 2004)

There are many times at work where I learn new things when someone I'm training asks, "why" or "why not." It's amazing how a different perspective can teach you what you don't know in life.

Jerry, I enjoy your posts, and the questions that they get me thinking. Especially on what we should be satisfied with in the setup and calibration of tools. Why can't my bandsaw be set up without drift? What really causes a tablesaw not to cut consistently well? Instead of compensating for the limits of the tools, why not find out what they really are.

Keep the posts coming, Jerry, I can't wait to see what questions your journey in woodworking comes up with next.


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

JOAT said:


> Wood moves, metal is stable. It's that simple.
> I've got a planer similar, and it'll plane wood to the same thickness, no prob. I adjust it, send ALL the pieces I'm going to use thru it. Then adjust it, send All the pieces thru. Repeat as necessary. And, unless you're a magician, you're going to need to sand the top regardless.
> 
> As far as benchrest, I'd much rather plink soda cans at 100 yards with a .22, loads more fun.


And this is where I jump in. Theo- yourself and others have brushed upon this.

We strive for precision, but with our chosen medium we have to remember temperance and understanding. How many times have I said: "Wood is alive" It moves, it breathes, with grain and internal stresses it...

We plan for it. We have to accept that those things are going to happen. Strive for perfection at a point of time, then we adjust to blend it in and make it work. That is the other half of that equation. It is not a static target that just sits there unchanged - it is moving targets that we mold to work together.

There is this fine line where machining a medium (wood) passes over into craftsmanship and art. Where we can mold it and get pieces to work with each other. That's where woodworking starts to get into the understanding of wood, the medium we choose...

Cherryville Chuck's sig line says "Someone I consider a master woodworker once told me that a master woodworker is not someone who never makes mistakes. He is someone who is able to cover them up so that no one can tell. In my line of thinking, that also goes for getting things to work together.

Soda cans with 22's at 100 yards? LOL. Reminds me of my teens with cans at 500 yards with 22-shorts. Lots of elevation and windage. We didn't hit a lot, but it was the challenge. Nowadays friends think I'm a bit nuts striving for precision over 1000 yards. Like woodworking- helps me to relax and both can sometimes be a challenge. But I also know from that, you have to adjust to conditions.


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

Earlier in this post it was pointed out to me the danger of cross cutting by using the rip fence as the right hand stop. Today I experimented, it was simple task, all I did was to atach the leading half of Incra's Wonder Fence to the rip fence, it works just fine.

I'll add another short benchrest story to this thread just for the fun of it. Before 1972 the stocks on all rifles including benchrest rifles were made of wood and the issues moving wood created a great deal of constant problems. One day a guy that was into the sport had a visit from his brother who was in an industry that used fiberglass. When the two brothers were visiting the subject of the shooting and the problems with wooden stocks came up. The brother that worked with fiberglass suggested that they make a stock out of fiberglass. That year the brother that was the shooter took the rifle with the fiberglass stock to National Matches. He was laughed at about his toy gun with the plastic stock, but when the shooting was over they didn't laugh anymeore. He won the Light Varment Class with his toy rifle with the plastic stock, in a short time everybody went to fiberglass, not only did we get away from the problems that to with wooden stocks but fiberglass is iighter tnan wood which allows the rifle to have more weight in its barrel and stay in the limits of weight restrictions. Years later hunting rifle began to use fiberglass for the same reasons with similiar results. Now I'm not suggesting that we turn to fiberglass but it underscore the issue how wood moves, expands, contracts and sometimes just gives of fits if we let it.

Jerry


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Jerry Bowen said:


> Charles,
> I agree with you of course, when I was shooting benchrest I sure didn't win every match that I participated in, in face I won very few actually, but the fun of that game like golf and/or baseball is the quest for doing better and experimenting with ideas to see what works and what does not work and then sharing the thinking and/or results with others that share the same interest. At least that is what makes it so interesting to me, wood working I mean.
> 
> Jerry


I think we all try to do better each time we try something. It just seemed that your efforts to achieve perfect cuts was taking precedence over the woodworking aspect of what we do. After all, making perfect cuts doesn't mean much unless you're making something with the pieces you cut. If you can figure out how to make perfect cuts every time that would certainly be worth sharing.

Just so you know where I am coming from, I shoot a longbow with wooden arrows with feathers. I am more into the fun part instead of precision.


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## Gaffboat (Mar 11, 2012)

I think it all boils down to the fact that we all have different definitions of when "it's good enough." What might be "good enough" for me clearly won't be for others. I'm envious of the skill and craftsmanship I've seen in some of the projects on this forum but I also realize I'm too lazy and too unwilling to devote the time to achieve them so I work on my projects until they meet my definition of "good enough." Trying to work to extremely accurate tolerances is a worthy challenge and just by coming close you have actually made a tighter project than a lot of us. Go for it.


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

Harrison67 said:


> I look at it about the same way as you Jerry. My illustrious trade/livelyhood:dirol: as a Machinist, makes me cut every woodcut to within a couple thousandths, at least. If repeatibility is not happening, I'm not happy.
> 
> Most of the items I made at work were within tolerances of plus or minus .0005 mostly. Cut it close, then grind/polish to that perfect surface. It was rare to get a print with +/-.002 or +/-.005.
> 
> ...


Harrison, 

While I am not a machinist like you, I did deal in ten thousandth of an inch tolerances when swager bullets for benchrest shooting. When you work within these tolerance it is difficult to except the toleances or absence of them when working with wood, but eventually I have been able to adjust or at least am beginning to except the facts and not let it rob me of the pleasure that I am finding with working with wood, I still am will continue to be stickler for doing the best I can and will pursue prodecures that will allow me to do the best I can. Right now this is taking so much time that I am not finishing many projects, but I am certainly having a great of pleasure in my pursuit. Harrison, I do hope that you will be able to follow what I am talking about and really enjoy the subject. 

Jerry


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## GulfcoastGuy (Feb 27, 2012)

I guess it all boils down to the (sorry to get all "New Age'y) Zen of the particular pursuit. With my planted aquariums I had to get used to the idea that the results of my efforts weren't going to be seen for weeks or even months. In Astronomy I was dealing regularly in terms of minutes or seconds of arc. Now with wood I have to understand that wood will do what wood does and I can't change that. We need accept the part of stuff that we can't change. I think that's where we'll find the real enjoyment in the hobby. 

GCG


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

I sure have gotten a lot of good feed back on this thread and from reading the replies one word that stands out to me is "enjoyment". Without exception, we are all into woodworking for the enjoyment that we get out of it. I get lots of enjoyment of seeing how close I can get my tools to work, even if what I am cutting is not going to be used in a project. To me, knowing the limits of my skill, my tools etc. have to be known before I attempt a project. 

There are basically four types of basic temperments. One type wants to know how his watch works, another just wants to know if it will keep time. I see each one of the four in the responses that I get to my posts as well as variation and/or combinations of them which is interesting and has added to the enjoyment that i am getting out of wood working. I am sure that all of you that read this will agree with me that the day that wood working is no longer enjoyable, that is the day to start looking for a new interest. I am in my latter years and in my life time I have had several interests, each of them brought me a lot joy as long as I was learning, but when they no longer presented a challenge I moved on to something new, some of the interests kept me interested for years, others were short lived, but they all brought me a lot of joy part of which, in fact a great deal came from the folks I met along the wat that shared their thoughts and experiences with me and I with them. As I said earlier, this is one area that most of us if not all will agree on. Anyway, I will close for now and until next time, have fun, be careful, and never get so serious that it ruins your day.

Jerry


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## BRAVOGOLFTANGO (Oct 11, 2012)

Interesting thread, but not surprised to see it. Every hobby based forum on the net has it's typical "my way's better" issues, funny seeing it on a "router" forum of all places though.

Woodworking so far, seems to be a challenge of wits, ingenuity, creativity, art, engineering, common sense, basically everything involved with most of my prior & current hobbies. When woodworking becomes "not fun" anymore, I'll have a few excellent basic tools for around the house and continue with my dozen other fun hobbies...


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## rwl7532 (Sep 8, 2011)

Jerry Bowen said:


> There are basically four types of basic temperments. One type wants to know how his watch works, another just wants to know if it will keep time.


The other two!! Please!!

I don't wear a watch. Am I a fifth type?

I used to be able to tell time by the sun within 15 minutes. I just needed to know where South was and where in the seasonal changes I was. In Seattle!!


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

rwl7532 said:


> The other two!! Please!!
> 
> I don't wear a watch. Am I a fifth type?
> 
> I used to be able to tell time by the sun within 15 minutes. I just needed to know where South was and where in the seasonal changes I was. In Seattle!!


Ralph, iit's been a long time since I was introduced to the four temperments, the other two have to do with quiet type that does very well with book keeping and detailed work, when these people try to throw a party they purposely hire, not invite, the people with the ability to tell stories and get attention, embelishing storys is just part of their temperment. For example at a certain party the cute little browned newly married bride was telling her listeners about her recent honeymoon cruise to Europe. She expounding on the ship etc. everyone was hanging on every word, at one point she turns to her new husband and says "isn't that right honeyh". His response, a completely different temperament of course, in a dry reply said "we flew". Differenct temperments attrack.

Jerry


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## rwl7532 (Sep 8, 2011)

Jerry Bowen said:


> Ralph, iit's been a long time since I was introduced to the four temperments, the other two have to do with quiet type that does very well with book keeping and detailed work, when these people try to throw a party they purposely hire, not invite, the people with the ability to tell stories and get attention, embelishing storys is just part of their temperment. For example at a certain party the cute little browned newly married bride was telling her listeners about her recent honeymoon cruise to Europe. She expounding on the ship etc. everyone was hanging on every word, at one point she turns to her new husband and says "isn't that right honeyh". His response, a completely different temperament of course, in a dry reply said "we flew". Differenct temperments attrack.
> 
> Jerry


Quiet types and embellishers? That's the other two?


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## joefyffe (Apr 1, 2014)

Don't feel bad Jerry, some of the same issues bother me!


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## Quillman (Aug 16, 2010)

One area of note is the outrageous attention required of machine setup, QC, metrology, and inspection.
Woodworking machines are still in the dark ages.
Finding where the errors are when shooting for .00N" renders this art most difficult.
Has priors in thousandths.


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

Just accidently ran on to this "old thread" and the posts to it. Had to chuckle at myself in regard to where my thinking was four years ago. Just for the record, I have "mellowed" a great deal and in regard to my hang up with accuracy.

You folks that posted to the old thread were so polite and said a lot of very nice things which I greatly appreciate.

I have not done much work in the shop in the last couple of years, but am getting back into it now and really enjoying it like I used to.

Jerry


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

And that the only part that really matters to you personally Jerry, no matter what goes out the door when you're finished working on it.


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## Knothead47 (Feb 10, 2010)

Interesting thread. I have worked with precision products in QC and other areas of manufacturing. I find it hard to deal with wood that moves and always in the wrong way. Murphy's Law? I have adjusted somewhat to this aspect of the wood craft.


BTW, it is illegal to hunt with a hand grenade.


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

Knothead47 said:


> Interesting thread. I have worked with precision products in QC and other areas of manufacturing. I find it hard to deal with wood that moves and always in the wrong way. Murphy's Law? I have adjusted somewhat to this aspect of the wood craft.
> 
> 
> *BTW, it is illegal to hunt with a hand grenade*.




But it is legal to fish with it, right...?


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Nickp said:


> But it is legal to fish with it, right...?


lures by DuPont...


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