# Understanding Price Quote Of Timber Yard



## Gaia (Feb 20, 2010)

Hi,
I've asked a timber merchant for their price on timber. They came back to me with £1096.00 per m3. I don't really understand terms like running metre or board feet etc.
How do I work out what six boards, 30cm wide x 5cm thick by 2.5m long would cost me?
Thanks.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Gaia said:


> Hi,
> I've asked a timber merchant for their price on timber. They came back to me with £1096.00 per m3. I don't really understand terms like running metre or board feet etc.
> How do I work out what six boards, 30cm wide x 5cm thick by 2.5m long would cost me?
> Thanks.


length (2.5M) times width (1.8M) times thickness (.05M) = your cubic meter measure...

30x6 = 180CM or 1.8M total width of the 6 boards laid side by side....
1.8x2.5 = 4.5² or 4.5M square...
5CM thick is .05M...
.05x4.5 = .225M³...

£1096x.225 = £246.60


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

This has been a mystery to me. I think what Stick is saying is that you buy wood by the cubic inch (or cm). Is that correct? So a board foot would equal 12x12x1 inches, or 144 cubic inches? Is that correct?


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## JFPNCM (Dec 13, 2009)

Thinking of it as a "cubic" measure is any easy way to keep the math in mind. The tricky part is the thickness measure as a lot of vendors will round up 1/2 and 3/4 boards to 1 inch.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

DesertRatTom said:


> This has been a mystery to me. I think what Stick is saying is that you buy wood by the cubic inch (or cm). Is that correct? So a board foot would equal 12x12x1 inches, or 144 cubic inches? Is that correct?


That is correct for a board foot. Some rough sawn boards are also still measured by quarters so a 10/4 board would be 2.5" thick. The metric system usually goes actual volume. A 3/4" thick board would be 19mm instead of 25.4(1").


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Another example of the Metric Monsters taking a simple concept and turning it into meaningless mush.
The 'Board Foot' does make sense, if you're buying large quantities of lumber. But for the hobbyist who wants a particular board, which has maybe a couple of fairly random edges and maybe a big knot at one end, the yard guy with the measuring stick is either his friend or his enemy...the hobbyist is at his mercy. If Y.G. says it's 3.7 B.F. that's what you're going to be paying for.

The concept of M3 is complete b.s., unless you're buying full lifts, or railcar loads. 
For framing lumber, on the other hand, where each piece is the same size, the alternate price per running foot (or metre) makes more practical sense 20 pcs-12'/2x4 @ $.50/linft... 20x12x.5= price
Sure the yards' computers will have the B.F. price, but they also have the conversion factor.
I doubt that you could even fit a M3 into a small car! That's a lot of weight. You're always going to end up with a M3 volume of something to two decimal places (.05 M3 for example) if you're buying small amounts of lumber.
As I've argued before, metric has no connection to the Human experience. Trust the French...


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Dang! I meant to include a scanned invoice...


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

*Metrification*

Heh...


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

(Dan) LOL!!!


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

DesertRatTom said:


> This has been a mystery to me. I think what Stick is saying is that you buy wood by the cubic inch (or cm). Is that correct? So a board foot would equal 12x12x1 inches, or 144 cubic inches? Is that correct?



Gaia buys his wood like we buy concrete...


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## RJM (Apr 11, 2010)

DesertRatTom said:


> This has been a mystery to me. I think what Stick is saying is that you buy wood by the cubic inch (or cm). Is that correct? So a board foot would equal 12x12x1 inches, or 144 cubic inches? Is that correct?


Not quite. A board foot is 12" x 12" x 1". Or, convert width and length to feet and multiply by thickness in inches. Most yards will not round but others will round up, so a 5-1/2 inch wide board might be rounded up to 6. This effectively raises the price so know the rules for your yard.

Also, what Chuck says is correct, especially for hardwoods. Thickness is measured in 1/4 inches, so a 1 inch thick board would be 4/4 lumber. If it's rough sawn, it should be about an 1/8" thicker, so rough sawn 4/4 should be 1-18" thick; however, if it's finished on both sided, or S2S (surfaced 2 sides) 4/4 lumber will be 13/16 thick, which will give you 3/4 of an inch after you finish plane, or finish sand (with a mechanical sander - drum or belt).

Example:
Need 4 boards 4 feet long, 4 inches wide and 3/4 in thick. To get 3/4 inch thick, you need to start with 4/4 either rough sawn, or finished (S2S). I think there might be some yards that would sell this as 3/4 finished lumber but the BF price would be higher so it would probably work out to be the same as 4/4/ S2S.

(below, the dash means "and", so 5-1/3 = 5 and 1/3)

Anyway, back to the example:
4 boards x 4 inches wide = 16 inches, or 1-1/3 feet
1-1/3 feet x 4 feet long = 5-1/3 sq ft
5-1/3 sq ft x 1 inch thick (4/4) = 5-1/3 board feet.

Alternately, you could just use inches and then divide by 144. So the second example for 5/4 lumber would be:

Suppose you wanted 1-1/4 inch lumber, or 5/4; then you'd have:
5-1/3 sq ft x 1-1/4 inches = (5-1/3) +(1-1/4)+(1/12) = 6-2/3 BF

(4x48x1.25)/144 = 240/144 = 1-2/3 BF for each board
1-2/3 x 4 boards = 4-8/3 or 6-2/3 BF same as above.

Here is more info:

http://www.nhla.com/assets/1603/2011_rules_book.pdf

Woodworking 101: What Does 4/4 Mean In Lumber? «


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

I'm a licensed log scaler and we measure logs in cubic meters. Just for an example green Douglas fir measures 1.1 m3 per metric tonne so it isn't a realistic measure for a hobbyist. It is more geared to industry.


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## Jakexp (Apr 26, 2013)

Don't feel a little behind America?


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Gaia is from the UK and his price quote is in cubic meters.. (M³)...
we get quotes in BF.... (12x12x1 inches)


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Metric measure is supposed to be actual measure so the actual measure in centimetres of the length x width x thickness divided by 1,000,000 will give the cubic metres. (1 cubic metre = 1m x 1m x 1m or 100cm x 100cm x 100cm which = 1,000,000 cubic cms squared). This is probably the most practical way to calculate it.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> Metric measure is supposed to be actual measure so the actual measure in centimetres of the length x width x thickness divided by 1,000,000 will give the cubic metres. (1 cubic metre = 1m x 1m x 1m or 100cm x 100cm x 100cm which = *1,000,000 cubic cms squared)*. This is probably the most practical way to calculate it.


ya lost me...

1 meter = 10 Decimeters = 100 centimeters = 1,000 millimeters... correct???

1,000,000² (squared) is 1,000,000,000,000...
to square a number is to multiply it by it's self..
this is where my cheese slid off of my cracker...

but what I want to know is...
did James get the correct answer he was looking for???


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

³√1 cubic meter = 10 Decimeters or = 100 centimeters or = 1,000 millimeters... correct???

I'm still having a tough time working 1,000,000 cubic CMS *squared* into the plan...


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

To be honest Stick I didn't understand your explanation. A cubic metre is 1 m x the three dimensions. 1m = 100 cm so a cubic metre is also 100cm x 100cm x 100cm = 1,000,000 cubic cms. A centimetre is a fairly convenient unit of measure. Although a cubic metre is a little large for a hobbyist purchase, in the metric system you just move the decimal point around so I guess it isn't a big deal.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Peter, the OP, didn't really clarify whether he was referring to dimensional lumber, or rough sawn hardwood, or hardwood that's been planed and primped for retail marketing.
If the last one, and it's a retail lumberyard, quoting a lineal price is a hell of a lot more user friendly. 
Personally not of interest to me, but for someone without a planer and jointer...
Maple - Appearance Boards - Lumber & Composites at The Home Depot


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Sorry Stick, I just realized my mistake. Just cubic centimeters, not squared.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> To be honest Stick I didn't understand your explanation. /QUOTE]
> 
> all I did was figure out what the volume of wood he wanted to purchase was...
> then figured what portion of a cubic meter it was......
> ...


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Luckily I haven't seen anyone ask for a quote in cubits yet. I misplaced my cubit stick so I would only be guessing.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> Luckily I haven't seen anyone ask for a quote in cubits yet. I misplaced my cubit stick so I would only be guessing.


maybe Noah didn't return it...
you know how some are with returning borrowed tools...


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## Gaia (Feb 20, 2010)

Thanks everyone for your replies.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Gaia said:


> Thanks everyone for your replies.


did you understand any of the explanations????


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## Gaia (Feb 20, 2010)

Stick486 said:


> length (2.5M) times width (1.8M) times thickness (.05M) = your cubic meter measure...
> 
> 30x6 = 180CM or 1.8M total width of the 6 boards laid side by side....
> 1.8x2.5 = 4.5² or 4.5M square...
> ...


OK nice and clear thanks. The timber is American Lime to practice my woodcarving. I ordered 6 boards a year ago, seem to recollect was £106. Yard cut boards in half and I put them in the back of the car. When I contacted the yard who gave me the price and volume I mentioned. He said had found my original order, was afraid the price had gone up a couple of times since last year. The price he gave is an increase of 100% +.
Also in the UK we have a tax called vat, so another 20% on top of that.
I wonder what warrants a price increase of + 100%?


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Gaia said:


> I wonder what warrants a price increase of + 100%?


greed???


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Gaia said:


> The timber is American Lime to practice my woodcarving


FWIW.. 
*Common Name: * Basswood
*Other Common Names:* American basswood, American lime, American linden, Basswood, Beetree, Beetree linden, Carolina linden, Florida basswood, Florida linden, Limetree, Linden, Linn, White basswood....

perhaps you can order/buy it under another name and save some time and money...

*Common Name(s):* European Lime, Common Lime, Common Linden
*Scientific Name: *Tilia x europaea (hybrid of Tilia platyphyllos and T. cordata; syn. T. vulgaris)
*Distribution:* Europe
*Tree Size:* 65-130 ft (20-40 m) tall, 5-6 ft (1.5-2 m) trunk diameter
*Average Dried Weight:* 33 lbs/ft3 (535 kg/m3)
*Specific Gravity *(Basic, 12% MC): .42, .53
*Janka Hardness:* 700 lbf (3,100 N)
*Modulus of Rupture:*12,380 lbf/in2 (85.4 MPa)
*Elastic Modulus:* 1,698,000 lbf/in2 (11.71 GPa)
*Crushing Strength:* 6,500 lbf/in2 (44.8 MPa)
*Shrinkage: Radial:* 5.0%, Tangential: 7.5%, Volumetric: 12.0%, T/R Ratio: 1.5

*Color/Appearance:* Pale white to cream color, with only subtle growth rings. The color is mostly uniform throughout the surface of the wood. Tends to age to a yellow or pale brown color over time.

*Grain/Texture:* Has a fine and even texture, which is preferred for wood carvers.

*Rot Resistance:* European Lime is rated as being non-durable in regard to heartwood decay.

*Workability:* Easy to work, being very soft and light, though sharp cutters must be used during planing or other shaping operations to avoid fuzzy surfaces. Perhaps one of the most suitable wood species for hand carving. European Lime also glues and finishes well.

*Odor:* No characteristic odor.

* Allergies/Toxicity:* There have been no adverse health effects associated with European Lime. See the articles Wood Allergies and Toxicity and Wood Dust Safety for more information.

*Pricing/Availability:* Usually available only in Europe, (with Basswood taking its place in the United States), European Lime is fairly inexpensive within its natural range.

*Sustainability:* This wood species is not listed in the CITES Appendices or on the IUCN Red List of Threatened Species.

*Common Uses:* Carvings, veneer, plywood, cutting boards, hat racks, musical instruments, and turned objects.

*Comments:* Species in the Tilia genus are usually referred to as either Lime or Linden in Europe, while in the United States the wood is most commonly called Basswood. They are unrelated to the lime fruit in the Citrus genus. European Lime has good strength-to-weight characteristics, and tends to be slightly heavier and harder than its American counterpart.

*Related Species:* Basswood (Tilia Americana)


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Whoa! The yard gave you a quote? Did you place the order _at that time_, based on the price quoted?
If you did, then jacking it up after making you wait a year (?!) ...what, they floated it across the Atlantic on the Gulf Stream?...is absolutely unconscionable.
If it was only an _estimated_ cost then that's still pretty harsh but not uncommon.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Peter I know that western red cedar and redwood are good carving woods and I suspect that western white pine is good too. Maybe they are cheaper.


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## Gaia (Feb 20, 2010)

DaninVan said:


> Peter, the OP, didn't really clarify whether he was referring to dimensional lumber, or rough sawn hardwood, or hardwood that's been planed and primped for retail marketing.
> If the last one, and it's a retail lumberyard, quoting a lineal price is a hell of a lot more user friendly.
> Personally not of interest to me, but for someone without a planer and jointer...
> Maple - Appearance Boards - Lumber & Composites*at The Home Depot


I told the yard I wanted rough cut boards that I could finish myself. I've got a Dewalt 733 ( lunchbox style ) thicknesser, planer. I'm making a jointer jig to use with the Dewalt. The project is in Fine Woodworking magazine, he uses a 733 like mine.


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## Gaia (Feb 20, 2010)

Stick486 said:


> did you understand any of the explanations????


explanations.... no, not at all. Price yes 


seriously, now the math has been explained, I should be able to work out the price of any future quotes I get.


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## Gaia (Feb 20, 2010)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> Peter I know that western red cedar and redwood are good carving woods and I suspect that western white pine is good too. Maybe they are cheaper.


OK thanks Charles.


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