# a wardrobe closet for shoes



## Dimitri M (Oct 4, 2011)

My one and only "client" (Mrs M), asked for a closet to accommodate all our shoes in. The space available is 1800mm(tall) x 1300mm(wide) x 290mm (deep), in an area with many fitted wardrobes around. (In Greece we talk in cm but I don't know who is familiar with what - please tell me if something needs changing).

I decided that 100mm from the ground up will be the base, and it will be slimmer than the actual closet to allow space for the feet just like in kitchen cabinets. This leaves me with 1700mm height.

Now, there was a problem with the shelves: all shoes do not fit into a horizontal shelf, unless it is about 400mm deep, and then this is too deep for ladies' shoes. My maximum usable depth of the shelf will be under 280mm. The fact that slippers will definitely need less height between shelves than boots need, leads to an answer with quick and easy adjustable shelves to accommodate the various shoe heights.
Eventually, I added a front "lip" to the shelves and gave them the ability to stand at various angles according to needs, and added one more dowel under the shelf to stop it from sliding out of the closet. So I invented a little device that allows the user to give 20, 30, 40mm added height in the posterior stand of the shelf. By making it big and chunky, I think I added to its stability and ease of use.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Dimitri M said:


> My one and only "client" (Mrs M), asked for a closet to accommodate all our shoes in. The space available is 1800mm(tall) x 1300mm(wide) x 290mm (deep), in an area with many fitted wardrobes around. (In Greece we talk in cm but I don't know who is familiar with what - please tell me if something needs changing).
> 
> I decided that 100mm from the ground up will be the base, and it will be slimmer than the actual closet to allow space for the feet just like in kitchen cabinets. This leaves me with 1700mm height.
> 
> ...


This is how I recently solved our shoe storage problem Dimitri.


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## Dimitri M (Oct 4, 2011)

*shelf details*

I have seen such an answer in the market, with strong metal tubes supporting the shoes at frontandback, and here I see that you made the plan very neat, easy and sturdy Harry, well done; it also gives the shoes plenty of air - but as your second pic shows, the rack itself is inside a walk-in wardrobe. I plan to enclose the shelves in their own closet, I have begun its construction and have not yet finished the plans - typical amateur !!!

Another problem I have are the doors: The width of the closet is 1300mm, if I make two doors of 650mm each, they will block the space in front of them when open. This leads me to four double doors of320mm each, and the central column is only 30mm thick and does not cater for the extra space needed when both doors attached to it are open or closed.


D


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Dimitri M said:


> I have seen such an answer in the market, with strong metal tubes supporting the shoes at frontandback, and here I see that you made the plan very neat, easy and sturdy Harry, well done; it also gives the shoes plenty of air - but as your second pic shows, the rack itself is inside a walk-in wardrobe. I plan to enclose the shelves in their own closet, I have begun its construction and have not yet finished the plans - typical amateur !!!
> 
> Another problem I have are the doors: The width of the closet is 1300mm, if I make two doors of 650mm each, they will block the space in front of them when open. This leads me to four double doors of320mm each, and the central column is only 30mm thick and does not cater for the extra space needed when both doors attached to it are open or closed.
> 
> ...


SNAP...........Our problem was solved with bi-fold doors.
A very neat solution to you shoe storage Dimitri, the construction will ensure that it lasts a thousand years!


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## Dimitri M (Oct 4, 2011)

You are closing in to the wavelength of my brain dear friend Harry, quite an honor for me as I am totally irrelevant to the subject but it seems I am not thinking wrong here, as I consider bifold doors as well. Still I have no idea about them and would like to ask two questions about bifold doors:
1) does the free end of the door move within a track of some kind? a long unsighty brass rail would ruin the appearance of the closet.
2) What special hinges for the middle and what catch/latch/whatsch for the closing end???

with a lot of thanks

D


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Bifold doors can be used without the track but you will need them to stop against the upper and lower frame, I think. You will also need something to hold them closed. 

This is one of my favorite door catch solutions. Rare-Earth Magnet, Cup & Washer Sets - Lee Valley Tools


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Dimitri M said:


> You are closing in to the wavelength of my brain dear friend Harry, quite an honor for me as I am totally irrelevant to the subject but it seems I am not thinking wrong here, as I consider bifold doors as well. Still I have no idea about them and would like to ask two questions about bifold doors:
> 1) does the free end of the door move within a track of some kind? a long unsighty brass rail would ruin the appearance of the closet.
> 2) What special hinges for the middle and what catch/latch/whatsch for the closing end???
> 
> ...


The first shot pointing upwards shows the track and a roller fitted about 30mm from the edge of the door runs in it. The stop can also be seen. Top and bottom of the hinged side have pins which protrude into plates, one in the track and one on the floor. The joining hinges, are what I call cheating hinges because no rebate is required. There are three hinges. 
As for seeing the track, I had to go and have a look because I really didn't know, which I suppose means that it isn't obtrusive because it's level with the door stop as the final two shots show.


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## Dimitri M (Oct 4, 2011)

Many many thanks Harry, this explains the techinque completely. On the other hand, I don't have 30mm thickness (to subtract from the shelf depth) for the doors, so I can't use the system - the doors will have to be outside (in front of) the frame. If the worst comes to the worst, I will make them with kitchen cabinet hinges, where I can play as much as I like. They are of bad aesthetics, but very convenient.

Thank you Charles, I was trhinking of magnets as well, although I don't know what is in the greek market available right now. The place you point me to, suggests round (button-like) magnets. I presume you open a shallow hole and bury the magnet in the wood so only the surface shows. You put the bulky washer on the opposite sheet so the two meet in the end of motion. How do you make sure the magnet plug will not come out ??? Here they (used to) use a flat rectangular magnet enclosed in plastic, which you could stabilise where you want it, and it wil lstay there. Here I see the "cup" screwed in the hole, the magnet freely floating in it and I wonder if it is trustworthy. I gather epoxy will not work either. Any comments??

On my own, I was thinking of a compass-like mechanism on the inner surface of the proximal (joined to the frame) sheet with a slot, and an arm on the inner surface of the distal (free end) of the bifold door, which will keep the two in a symmetrical position, so once you open the door it will start flying around like a boomerang. If my meory serves me well (highly unlikely LOL) window shutters had something like this. I got myself into extra trouble for not calculating from the beginning bifold doors.


Many thanks to both, you really are helpful in a field that I don't have any expertise from anywhere locally.

D


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Perhaps a nice curtain might be the answer!


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## Dimitri M (Oct 4, 2011)

I like the inspired idea Harry !! I will fight many battles until I surrender to the curtain !!!!

D


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Thank you Charles said:


> Dimitri,
> The magnets I gave a link for are rare earth magnets, very strong for their size. The 1/4" size (6.35mm) have an attractive force of 2.5 pounds (1.15 kg). If installed in a cup they are 4x that much. The magnet will never come out of the cup, which is why they recommend cutting a slot in the side if you think you may want to remove it someday. They will epoxy in place as well. I usually use a Forstner bit to install them because the Forstner bit makes it easy to judge the required depth, however, a brad point bit also works well.
> Normally bi-fold doors fit inside a frame and require the track to keep them aligned and not allow them to flop around like a "boomerang". They could be installed across the frame if they were able to close against the frame for support. A magnet at the fold and another at the free end would secure them in the closed position.


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## Dimitri M (Oct 4, 2011)

Charles thank you, I got it now; I might as well end up using them, in which case I need to order from the USA, hopefully there are no bans in the postage of magnets ??? God knows...

The ideas are settling slowly in my mind, I might as well start building the doors and take it from there - I always do this, mainly because of technical ignorance, enthusiasm and true amateurish attitude - whatever problem I can't solve, I leave it halfdone sometimes for years. That's allright, I don't build furniture to earn a living, just to relax from my stress at work and enjoy something that is not for sale off the shelf.

Well ,all these will have to wait till after Christmas - my best wishes to you and all here at Router Forums.

D


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Lee Valley is a Canadian company that also does business in the USA. I have never had a problem getting the magnets in the mail here, but they do not go over a border to get to where I live. I use them for many things. I even used them once to hold the kickboard onto a bathroom cabinet for my neighbor. He was very happy with it because he could remove it and hide valuable possessions in the narrow space behind it. 
Merry Christmas to you too.


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## Dimitri M (Oct 4, 2011)

You have excited my imagination with these magnets - perhaps I should order some just to see how they look in real life - they are pretty cheap. I will look into it as soon as the holidays are over.

Best wishes

D


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## Dimitri M (Oct 4, 2011)

A lot of water has passed under the bridge since then .... other smaller projects for Christmas, my illness in February, operation in March, slow recovery for 3 - 4 months, then again some other projects, and now... BACK TO SQUARE ONE !!!

After considering bifold doors as mentioned above, I cut cypress to make the frames, and as no filler was found for the panels, I cut more cypress to make fillets that glued together would provide a stable and nice door. This was all done by February, and by June that I looked at them again, most pieces had warped - cypress loves to warp, hence it is not considered as furniture wood.

All in all, I made up my mind to use pine - very similar appearance to cypress, soft, nice and straight, sold in pieces 22mm thick x 142mm wide x 4200mm long. Nice stuff.

By now, I had read about raised panels, and wanted raised panels - even wanted to use Fibonacci numbers for as many dimensions as possible, and of course, binding and jointing would be with my favorite method, dowels.

And here I am, about to glue the first of four doors. If anyone is interested, I can show some pictures of my odyssey reinventing the wheel !!! I could not believe what I made - I even simplified the ski / sled for the router down to a couple of wood scraps to make the raised panels. The unthinkable agony, design, trial, error, re-design, re-cut, smaller error, then get to grips and finally do the job, ultimate satisfaction !!!

I will photograph tomorrow some interesting aspects of the job, just for fun. And all you experienced woodworkers, please do not laugh at me, it gives me pleasure to follow my stubborness and then from time time learn a lesson or two !!!

Cheers

D


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

It's good to see that you haven't abandoned the project Dimitri. Joining boards using dowells is for the birds, they all have to be measured and drilled accurately whereas biscuits need no measuring, just a scribbled line on each side of the boards followed by a quick push of the biscuit jointer, a little slide to the left and to the right and the joint is always perfect. Sliding the jointer slightly left and right allows for any errors and guarantees perfect alignment. Biscuit slots can also be routed on the table using a slot cutter which also allows a slot along the full length of the boards to insert a spline.


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## Dimitri M (Oct 4, 2011)

Harry, many many thanks for your comment. You make me feel like a bird already - perhaps I can fly, but I can't sing (sorrow) - yet chickens are birds too, but they are good for the oven only !!!!. Indeed it is easier to align a biscuit joint when glueing, but the dowels make it so much stronger (I think). For starts, I do not have a biscuit jointer. I have a DeWalt 621K router that takes 6 & 8 mm chucks. I found 8 mm short drill bits (Trend) and with a simple jig I can put many accurate dowels relatively easy and quickly, hence I like and use the method a lot. Of course, a similar router bit for biscuits (also Trend) makes an easy job except where 90* angled in the middle of a board biscuits are needed. Perhaps a bicuit jointer will be my next purchase.

By the way, I saw all your threads and pics re. routing for beginners, and right there I found my anwer for dishing - so the cheeseboard that I promised you for last Christmas will arrive with a bowl carved in it prompty this year - I HOPE (a postoperative hernia has shown on my tummy and needs mending - hopefully after January). I also saw several threads and jigs on skis (you wrote the encyclopedia on the matter) and sledges and I am now preparing my version of sled & ski compound, big enough for the two planks that will make the table top in the other thread where you saw the bench.

I will keep everything posted, if it is important enough.

D


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

It's getting really exciting now Dimitri!


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

Dimitri M said:


> I have seen such an answer in the market, with strong metal tubes supporting the shoes at frontandback, and here I see that you made the plan very neat, easy and sturdy Harry, well done; it also gives the shoes plenty of air - but as your second pic shows, the rack itself is inside a walk-in wardrobe. I plan to enclose the shelves in their own closet, I have begun its construction and have not yet finished the plans - typical amateur !!!
> 
> Another problem I have are the doors: The width of the closet is 1300mm, if I make two doors of 650mm each, they will block the space in front of them when open. This leads me to four double doors of320mm each, and the central column is only 30mm thick and does not cater for the extra space needed when both doors attached to it are open or closed.
> 
> ...


Personally, I don't like bi-fold doors. They are clunky when you slide them back and forth. They are unsightly when open (they fold into the room) and in the way when open if your closet is in a high traffic area. I have had them in one of my apartments and was never impressed with them. I think that pocket doors are a more elegant solution. Unlike bi-fold doors when open they are hidden within the wall but like bi-fold doors give full access to the contents of the closet. Here are a few installation videos to help you understand.

Pocket Door Frame Kit Installation Video - YouTube

Installation Instructions for Pocket Door Frame by Johnson Hardware - YouTube

Pocket Doors would my solution to your problem. A pocket door is a sliding door that disappears, when fully open, into a compartment in the adjacent wall. Pocket doors are used for architectural effect, or when there is no room for the swing of a hinged door. They usually travel on rollers suspended from an overhead track, although some also feature tracks or guides along the floor. Both single- and double-door versions are used, depending on how wide an entry is desired. Furthermore, installing a pocket door rather than a hinged door can add an average of ten square feet of floor space. I consider the pocket door one of the top ten most overlooked items when many architects and builders plan a home. The doors were particularly common in Victorian homes to close off such areas as sitting rooms or dens; however, as architectural tastes changed, many of the hardware manufacturers went out of business. With improvement in the hardware and the growth of the market for condominiums and town homes, there has been a resurgence of interest in this space-saving feature. Modern residential uses include bathrooms, closets, laundry or utility rooms, or home offices. I hope that this helps.


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## Dimitri M (Oct 4, 2011)

Apologies; after a long time, I took pictures of the dowelling process for the construction of doors nad of the routing process for making raised panels with a very simple jig, and processed them in the computer, and last night, as I started a comment, the removable disk with the pics on it broke and all was lost - for the time being. If they can fix it in a day or two, I will be able to post them here, otherwise new pics over the weekend etc. I am really sorry, several people have shown interest, and I feel I turned all of you down, mainly because I am very busy and now because of this mishap.

Best regards

D


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## Dimitri M (Oct 4, 2011)

Here we are, I had to photograph again my effort to make the doors for this closet using raised panels. Have a look at the technique, I found the jigs surprisingly simple and effective:
http://www.routerforums.com/jigs-fixtures/38152-easy-raised-panel-jigs.html#post306900.
Then, to show once and for all my 8mm dowelling technique using a router, I started one more thread, and from there you can find how I make the doors
http://www.routerforums.com/jigs-fixtures/38153-dowel-joints-using-router.html#post306901

tomorrow more photos with dry assembly, please be patient

D


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Dimitri M said:


> Here we are, I had to photograph again my effort to make the doors for this closet using raised panels. Have a look at the technique, I found the jigs surprisingly simple and effective:
> http://www.routerforums.com/jigs-fixtures/38152-easy-raised-panel-jigs.html#post306900.
> Then, to show once and for all my 8mm dowelling technique using a router, I started one more thread, and from there you can find how I make the doors
> http://www.routerforums.com/jigs-fixtures/38153-dowel-joints-using-router.html#post306901
> ...


You're doing a fine job Dimitri, but haven't you considered making genuine raised panel doors, a set of bits for a comparative youngster like yourself would be a good investment considering that now that you're on a roll, there'll be no stopping you!


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## Dimitri M (Oct 4, 2011)

Hi Harry, I would love to work with these gadgets... it would mean I have a 12mm plunge router, an accurate router table, the time and patience to keep playing with the bits until the rails are cut level with the stiles, enough panels to raise with the horizontal bit of yours, plus an extra 4 - 5 panels to spare, some because the bit chewed up, some because I passed them both sides and what not... now IF THE DOORS WITH DOWEL JOINTS DO NOT WARP, I won a point - else, I will have to revert to time-honored methods used by everyone else. Wait and see.. and in the meantime, I am thinking of strategies to overcome the problems of giant planks (195 x 45 x 4 cm) to make the trestle table. I am fed up with the shoe closet, it has lost any interest - I solved all its theoretical problems, particularly the variable shelf angle, now it only elbow grease...

See you

and a million thanks for the excellent jokes in my email

D


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## Dimitri M (Oct 4, 2011)

At last,I am now in the process of applying "european" door hinges. Before that, please have a look at the two threads mentioned above and a glimpse a the dry assmbly of the raised panel door, posted here.


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## MACswag (Feb 28, 2012)

Hey, good pic,I see lots of well spaced dowel work,thanks for the post,MAC


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## Dimitri M (Oct 4, 2011)

*Grand finale*

To anyone still wondering whether I finally made this thing or not, I owe a few pics as evidence that, following a one-year long fight with a tumor I had to leave it half done, and this month I was able to finally finish it. The actual result was very impressive in terms of functionality (I really liked my own invention with pivoting rectangles on an off-centre dowel), very good in terms of aesthetic (and use of free tree edges to keep the front of the shoes, excellent usage of the limited depth space (even size 47 shoes can be accommodated), and despair in view of the results of the unacceptable varinshes available here, imported as "manufactured and sealed in Germany" which are REALLY rubbish and I would be glad to ask for compensation if I could). Last, but not least, I need to say my own shoes are still kept in the basement (easier for me as I can polish them only there !!!). Ladies, not money, make the world go round I think.

Here are the final pics, and many thanks to all who encouraged me in all steps and adventures, first of all to Harry, and then all other friends here.

In the pics, first note the off-centre squares that enable various angles for the shelves: the numbers 1 - 4 refer to the centimetres of height from the centre of the dowel. Then, in the second pic note the presence of simple dowels holding the front of the shelves - I did not need to use metal supports because shoes are light as a shelf-load. The narrow space in front ofthe closet made the use of four doors necessary -there is no chance to get a whole pic of all four doors. This particular setup allows the shelf behind the door handles to be seen, butit still has enough space to hold the door, and let enough air in.

Comments welcome. :thank_you2:


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

Great result, Dimitri.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Great Job Dimitri. But you do know what happens when you leave your wife enough room for more shoes don't you?


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## Dimitri M (Oct 4, 2011)

James, thank you indeed. You are always fast to respond and generous in your comments; you are an encouragement to me.

Charles, thank you as well. I know that more shoes will fit the extra shelves. For years I would see all the new shopping and get more and more angry. Now, after she looked after me better than a mother would look after her child during illness, I think she deserves each and every thing I can make for her, and then some more. As simple as that. And we have been a couple with much arguing and disagreement for more than 35 years now. But don't say I said that ...


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Dimitri my friend, I think the time has arrived to put away you surgeon's knife and become a full time furniture designer and/or maker. An innovative and well executed project.


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## Dimitri M (Oct 4, 2011)

Thank you Harry for your flattering comments; I must admit that designing and carrying out such tasks is very relaxing, rewarding and soothening for me, but the pure satisfaction I get from a successful operation on a badly broken limb, is second to none. Even in these circumstances, "licking" the wooden planks all evening takes away the aggro and the mental fatigue from the medical job, so I am very lucky to have the health, opportunity and circumstances to enjoy the best of both worlds.

Best wishes


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## Larkan (Apr 13, 2012)

Great job well done Dimitri


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## Dimitri M (Oct 4, 2011)

thank you Kerry, I just had a look at your LP59 project, and was amazed at the quality of your work, do you do this for a living? It is light years away from my coarse sanding on cypress planks. And I envy the wood types available for you where you live !

best wishes


Dimitri


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## mailee (Nov 11, 2005)

I have just noticed this thread Dimitri and have to say you have done a splendid job of the shoe cabinets. As I started reading I was unsure if you had solved the problem of the design and decided to post my design for one of my customers with a similar problem.

Although it is a painted finish I thought the slide out idea with adjustable shelves would have helped but see you have solved your problem admirably, well done for a great design and build.


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## Dimitri M (Oct 4, 2011)

Alan, I a mgrateful for your comments. Solving difficult technical an aesthetic problems is the main reason I keep woodworking as a hobby. Otherwise, only the financial factor would keep me from asking a pro to make whatever is needed, and the job would be ultimately boring. That's why I don't make the same thing twice.

Still, economising some limited width to benefit from the height in a wardrobe, is very smart and efficient. I will keep it in mind. Thank you.


Best wishes.

D


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Dimitri, the only things that I make more than one the same off are ones that I make using templates. It is highly unlikely that if I aimed to make two identical items that they would end up the same. for example, last week I started out to turn an 8" vase the same as a previous one however, after it shot out of the lathe and landed on the concrete floor, I managed to get it back on the lathe and it ended up 6 1/8" tall and a very boring shape!


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## steamfab (Jun 22, 2012)

What a beautiful and neat shoe storage! Great design and great joinery. I'm sure the wife loves it. Great job!


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## Dimitri M (Oct 4, 2011)

Harry, I have no idea about wood turning (or any lathe work), but pottery is an ancient artin Greece, and surely you have seen the elegant curves ofancient greek vases. After a careful observation along many applications, I came to the conclusion that the actual curve of a piece turned on the lathe lies within your heart (if not on a template). For your pleasure, google "Nikos Siragas" or Nikos Siragas Woodturning . He is a very good lathe turner, from Rethymno, who developed techniques - and even tools - of his own, and now gives seminars in England and here as well.And, keep repeating the efforts. It is the training of the eye together with the hand that makes the aesthetic pleasure. Otherwise, hemispheres as you know, are best when made with a template. Best wishes in your new horizon.

Steamfab, many thanks for your comments. I wish you all success in your creations, and if I am allowed a piece of advice, give plenty of time to thinking before you touch the tools.

Best wishes

D


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## Botelho007 (Sep 23, 2012)

great design, Dimitri.

Thanks for sharing.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Dimitri M said:


> Harry, I have no idea about wood turning (or any lathe work), but pottery is an ancient artin Greece, and surely you have seen the elegant curves ofancient greek vases. After a careful observation along many applications, I came to the conclusion that the actual curve of a piece turned on the lathe lies within your heart (if not on a template). For your pleasure, google "Nikos Siragas" or Nikos Siragas Woodturning . He is a very good lathe turner, from Rethymno, who developed techniques - and even tools - of his own, and now gives seminars in England and here as well.And, keep repeating the efforts. It is the training of the eye together with the hand that makes the aesthetic pleasure. Otherwise, hemispheres as you know, are best when made with a template. Best wishes in your new horizon.
> 
> Steamfab, many thanks for your comments. I wish you all success in your creations, and if I am allowed a piece of advice, give plenty of time to thinking before you touch the tools.
> 
> ...


Nikos is an artist on the lathe. Unlike him and of course our own Bernie, I have no imagination, for instance, yesterday I put a beautiful block of Jacaranda in the lathe and ended up with the bland, uninteresting "pudding dish" shown. I'm going to start downloading photos of interesting turnings and see if I'm any good at copying.


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## Dimitri M (Oct 4, 2011)

Claudio, thank you as well.

Harry, I see that you are already very good with the lathe. I am sure that the more thinking you put into a creative project, the better it will come out. I didn't know that jacaranda can be turned. I also had to cut an acacia (acacia oleifolia, I just found it is a native of Australia) from my garden 2 weeks ago. Do you think it could be of any use at all?. I know Nikos wraps the pieces of wood in newspaper to avoid splitting, I don't know any more secrets on this preservation. Well, you can improve drastically on your "pudding bowl" by making a decorative dish to go under it and a lid to match, even by mixing contrasting wood bits, perhaps.

Best of luck

D


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