# Help getting this old machine running again



## grand-dragon (Jan 20, 2013)

Hello Everyone! 
I was looking for a job at a locale sign company and had brought along a CNC I built from wood, the plans i got online, thou its not complete cause I need the electronics to finish.
Anyways the guy took a look at what I had built and showed me his machine and said it hadn't run in years. And added that if I could get the thing running he'd give me a job running it in addition to paying me just cause I got, what he is now calling a 3500$ paper weight, it up and running again. The only date I have found on it so far is on the PCB which is 1988. It's a Gerber machine (I hope its ok to use names and such). It runs through Artpath software and a controller called ARC Station( advantage router control). He told me that it ran but not in years and the last thing they tried running wouldn't lift the tool high enough on of the material when it would need to move from the end point of one cut to the start of the next. So I figure that's just a Z height problem. I have plugged everything in and there is power, I haven't tried pushing a design to it cause I want to remove the cutter bit and try a dry run so I can see what the Z axis is doing. But from what I can tell I should be able to move the X,Y to the home location via the ARC Station (i.e manual control) but I have yet to manage to do that. I only have had limited time to spend working on it this last Thursday, and I was looking over the wiring and trying to get the work/move manually with no luck. After looking at the PCB, Transformer, Driver, Power supply are I noticed two wires not connected thou I'm not sure what they goto. There are four red LEDs on the PCB +5vdc, mill, (2)24vdc, when the ARC Station is plugged in the +5vdc lights up. But no others. Thou I'm guessing those may light up when the machine is running. 
I spoke with the company but cause I haven't found the factory name plate yet they weren't much help other then I might have a Dimensions 200. Cause the numbers I have found located in different locations didn't help and I can't find anything through google.
I did find a youtube video the showed the same machine but no answer from there so far. 
I'll say I have never run one of these before but that's not an issue. I have plenty of computer experience, I can draw in CAD, I have a knack for working with many tools hand or power. And with the bit of coding I had in collage I understand X,Y,Z.

Anyways Hope someone out there can help point me in the right direction with this, cause I'd love to land this job and I'd get to "play" with one hella "toy" LOL. Really I could enjoy doing this kinda work every day.

Thanks 
Greg


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

The first step with any machine is to locate the owners manual and parts manual. Chances are everything you need to know about troubleshooting it are in them.


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## grand-dragon (Jan 20, 2013)

Thanks for answering Mike

Been trying to and all I have found is the manual to the control station. And a manual for the art path CAM software, but that just has the very basics of what the functions are. 
I won't be able to look and see if the factory name plate is where they said it should be but I hope it is cause then I may be able to find a parts manual but that still wont help with the wiring/PCB board. But this thing is 24yrs old so I'm not sure I'll be able to find much. 
But I'm trying my damnest.


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## MEBCWD (Jan 14, 2012)

Greg if all else fails you might just act like this is a home built unit and research how it would be hooked up on similar control boards since the board is marked for hookups.


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## Semipro (Mar 22, 2013)

Greg
Try here they archive stuff maybe would have information
Engraving PORTAL, Engraving Machines, Lasers, Software, Materials
John


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## MEBCWD (Jan 14, 2012)

Greg,
This may help, at least you can contact them.
Gerber Dimension 200® Router - Gerber Scientific Products - Sign Making Equipment - Sign Making Solutions


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## Willway (Aug 16, 2012)

Hi Greg, one big clue you already have is on most all PCB's is the LED's. On almost every board I have ever worked on the LED's are for power available or power input. If the 24v LED is not on you have no driver power. You can start with a meter at the 24v source then trace it from there. One thing to check is to remove the wire from the +5 v connection, if the led goes out you can almost bet the other connections are indicators for 24v and 0v, and possibly -5, and maybe a -24, if the servo/stepper motors are 48v. You can test for power on the leads that are not connected, that should give you a clue as to where they connect. They may go directly back to the power supply, transformer and some kind of rectifier packs, it may be a simple bridge rectifiers or an SCR packs. I would almost bet the rectifiers are the problem. *Only connect them as a last resort!!!!!!*


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## grand-dragon (Jan 20, 2013)

Semipro said:


> Greg
> Try here they archive stuff maybe would have information
> John


Thx! SemiPro That got me a better pic of the machine I'm looking at but it didn't have any links to documentation thou some of the others do. Bummer! 

Dang it can't post url's yet so I'll load the pic then.
Couldn't even leave your link in this post. DOH!

The Sprint 48 looks closer to it due to the fact that it has the X gantry rail cover but there both the same basic machine.

Thx! MEBCWD I was thinking bout that as well (treating it like a homemade machine) and the guy said if I thought we needed to go that route then we could but at the same time he said it ran. Also I have contacted Gerber and they weren't much help cause I didn't have the serial # from the factory name plate, and I still haven't found it yet. They also said I have to re-register the machine and setup a service contract and well I'm not looking to do that, I just need more info mainly a wiring diagram. 

As for going through and re-wiring the motors and eliminating the operators controller station I'm hesitant on but it would make better sense to update things to the latest technology. Or as close as I can.

Here's a pic I took when I was there last week. I'd upload more but not sure if its ok to load pics with company info, but if it is let me know and I'll get them posted as well.

I have also tried using google goggles to search this pic and the others but LOL it didn't work.:angry:

Thx Again for all the input.


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## Semipro (Mar 22, 2013)

Greg
Go to cnczone.com look at their form sure you find moe information on this subject
John


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## grand-dragon (Jan 20, 2013)

Willway said:


> Hi Greg, one big clue you already have is on most all PCB's is the LED's. On almost every board I have ever worked on the LED's are for power available or power input. If the 24v LED is not on you have no driver power. You can start with a meter at the 24v source then trace it from there. One thing to check is to remove the wire from the +5 v connection, if the led goes out you can almost bet the other connections are indicators for 24v and 0v, and possibly -5, and maybe a -24, if the servo/stepper motors are 48v. You can test for power on the leads that are not connected, that should give you a clue as to where they connect. They may go directly back to the power supply, transformer and some kind of rectifier packs, it may be a simple bridge rectifiers or an SCR packs. I would almost bet the rectifiers are the problem. *Only connect them as a last resort!!!!!!*


Thx! WillWay 
So I'm guess that those should be lit to give me control from the controller station so that a way I would be able to move the gantry to the x,y 0,0. Cause according to that manual I should be able to do at least that. 
It looks like all the wires are labeled and a respective label as to where they connect but the two wires in question either aren't lone enough or longer then would be expected. As for tracing, most the wires are nice and bundled with zip ties and unbundleing them would get in the way and maybe touch things they shouldn't. 
There is one other thing that has me concerned, that being there is a wire that looks like it desoldered it's self, but it's located behind the/a capacitor. And things are tight in there/at that location. 
I don't know what the rectifier or SCR pack is but in that pic you may be able to see two black boxes in the lower right corner, the one closest to the transformer is connected the other in the very lower right corner isn't. I'll get a better pic of that if I can get by there this afternoon when I drop off roommates at work. If not it'll be tomorrow. And the pic I'll get will show better of the two wires not connected.

Thx Greg


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## grand-dragon (Jan 20, 2013)

Semipro said:


> Greg
> Go to cnc.com look at their form sure you find moe information on this subject
> John


When I go there it takes me to Gate House Media - New England

Unless you mean cnczone but I've looked there and have the same post up but no help yet.


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## grand-dragon (Jan 20, 2013)

Can ya'll tell me what these components are?

The first pic I have no idea what it is.

Second pic I'm guessing might be a thermal fuse.

Third pic I think may power the X,Y motors and light the LEDs on the board.


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## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

grand-dragon said:


> Can ya'll tell me what these components are?
> 
> The first pic I have no idea what it is.
> 
> ...


First one looks like a contactor(relay)

2nd look like a pair of diodes(rectifiers) If it got hot enough to melt the solder(it looks burned!), something is shorted or severally overloaded!

3rd If you are not sure, a wrong guess can do more damage than good.

Doesn't seem your talents are well suited to this task. Not trying to be rude, but electronic repair requires some knowledge of what you are working with!


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## bloomingtonmike (Dec 13, 2011)

What drive system on each axis does it have, what size for each, and does it use steppers or servos? Also does it have a spindle?

Converting it to a modern day controller may be better in the long run. Even if you get it running you will still be limited to using its control station and its software.

You may want to finish your hobby machine first and learn about what you are doing before attempting a larger project.


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## grand-dragon (Jan 20, 2013)

Dmeadows said:


> First one looks like a contactor(relay)
> 
> 2nd look like a pair of diodes(rectifiers) If it got hot enough to melt the solder(it looks burned!), something is shorted or severally overloaded!
> 
> ...


Oh! Trust me your not being rude at all, you just don't know me. I'm a quick study... 
I will admit when i don't know something but I'm always looking to learn. So if that's an old style diode/rectifier then I did not know that. Heck I didn't know they had any relation. 
That's why I mentioned desoldering it's self. Got to hot. 

I'm just looking for info. Just saying.


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## grand-dragon (Jan 20, 2013)

bloomingtonmike said:


> What drive system on each axis does it have, what size for each, and does it use steppers or servos? Also does it have a spindle?
> 
> Converting it to a modern day controller may be better in the long run. Even if you get it running you will still be limited to using its control station and its software.
> 
> You may want to finish your hobby machine first and learn about what you are doing before attempting a larger project.


I'd love to finish my hobby first but don't have the funds. There fore I'm trying to fix this first. I need/want the job because it interest's me a good deal. The concept is the same be it small or large, just a few changes. And its only 3 axis. 

I'm all for converting. Just want to keep the cost down as best I can. 

As for the spindle, looks like a router. I haven't unmounted it to look for a nameplate.
And the same goes for the steppers/servos. Need to open the compartments. 

Drive system looks like belt with guide rails, motor at one end. Sorry haven't looked that close. Been more focused on the power aspect rather then taking off panels and inspecting those parts.

I'd like to upgrade things and maybe get what it has working again, in a way where i have quick disconnects for testing/finding the right replacement parts. IE a hobby!


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## Willway (Aug 16, 2012)

grand-dragon said:


> Can ya'll tell me what these components are?
> 
> The first pic I have no idea what it is.
> 
> ...


Hi Greg, pic #1 is the power contactor, Pic#2 are diode rectifiers, *and the one on the right looks like it has blown!* and of course pic#3 is the terminal strip ( no guess on the wires). The contactor should probably close as soon as you press the start or power button. 

First disconnect all power then *discharge the capacitor* with a short piece of *insulated* wire, then *mark the wires and the diodes #1 and #2, and the plate their mounted to*. unsolder and remove the diodes There is normally a number on them if you have to order them. Take them to an electronics supply house and have them bench checked, and replace what is bad, and no Radio Shack won't have them but some TV shops will, or have access to them. Hope this helps.


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## CharleyL (Feb 28, 2009)

The first picture is a power relay. The coil behind pulls the Y shaped part toward it when energized. Electrical contacts on the top ends of the Y touch mating contacts behind and complete a power circuit.

The second picture shows 2 power diodes mounted on a heat sink bracket. The center wire connection completes a circuit to the base of the diodes.

The third picture shows a terminal strip. I have no idea what it is for or if the wires are in the right places.

Charley


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

The fact that you don't recognize a contactor or power diodes let alone know how they work tells me that you should keep well away from this area, this is a SAFETY issue, we don't want to lose members.


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## grand-dragon (Jan 20, 2013)

Willway said:


> Hi Greg, pic #1 is the power contactor, Pic#2 are diode rectifiers, *and the one on the right looks like it has blown!* and of course pic#3 is the terminal strip ( no guess on the wires). The contactor should probably close as soon as you press the start or power button.
> 
> First disconnect all power then *discharge the capacitor* with a short piece of *insulated* wire, then *mark the wires and the diodes #1 and #2, and the plate their mounted to*. unsolder and remove the diodes There is normally a number on them if you have to order them. Take them to an electronics supply house and have them bench checked, and replace what is bad, and no Radio Shack won't have them but some TV shops will, or have access to them. Hope this helps.


I've been told to use a light bulb to discharge the capacitor for testing with a multimeter. Done that before with an A/C start capacitor and small fridge. LOL yeah radio shack ain't what they used to be. But the TV shop I wouldn't have thought of, THX! 

Well even though I'd like to bring life back to this old technology, I beginning to think I should just update it to modern components. I for this CNC Kit 3 Axis Stepper Drivers 3X 1 24nm Motors 24V10A PSU Manual Controller | eBay and I'm sure it would work on the one I built but not sure for this bigger machine. And cause I haven't seen the motors yet I'm not sure if I'd need to replace them but figure I should anyways. 
If anything once I remove all the existing components I figure I can see if they can work on my project, so I'm not giving up on replacing parts.
As for software I have Mach3 and Cambam, I'll get the license when I get things running. 

I want to say THANKS ALL of you for your help and input. I'm just taking things slow and doing as much research as I can before taking a step forward.


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## Willway (Aug 16, 2012)

Greg I think you are probably giving up to soon. It would be a shame to go through that extra work and expense for the price of a pair of diodes. I told you before you ever posted any photos the problem would be in the rectifiers (diodes) and there it is. Which ever way you decide to go I wish you the best.


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## grand-dragon (Jan 20, 2013)

Thx! Dick 
I'm not giving up just yet. I'd like to see this run with what it originally had, thou I think it may be missing a transformer due to a pic I found of the same machine. But at the same time it doesn't look like its had a second one for some time so that may not matter.
I'm looking for that diode right now, short of going into town and removing the ones from the machine and heading over to the TV shop I take all my TV repairs too. 
Anyways last time I was going to go run some tests with my multimeter and get some pics, well I forgot the meter DOH!, and that was monday just haven't had a chance to get back over there.


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## AxlMyk (Jun 13, 2006)

grand-dragon said:


> I don't know what the rectifier or SCR pack is but in that pic


Hold the phone. If you don't know what those are, you had better take a course in electronics before going any further.
Messing with things you know nothing about, makes it a sure bet the magic smoke is going to be released very soon.


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## grand-dragon (Jan 20, 2013)

It's not that I don't know what they are just hadn't seen a stud type diode/rectifier. I've repaired a few stereos back when I was 14-16, had a couple blown transistors and a diode. And I also do my research before I work with electronics. Last thing I want is to have the crap shocked out of me and I draw the line at 220Vac.


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## bgriggs (Nov 26, 2008)

Personally, I would convert the machine to a Gecko Drive system like the G540. Use the existing power supply if it is functional and maybe a breakout board from PMDX. You might end up spending a grand but you would have a state of the art system that was reliable and replaceable.

However, if it is just the diode, that will be WAY cheaper to fix.

Bill


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## grand-dragon (Jan 20, 2013)

Well I finally got back to the guys shop and removed the rectifier. Ended up going to the next big town and stop at a supply house and picked up two of them for 16$, $8ea. so not to bad. Now all I got to do is get back there tomorrow and resolder them in and replace a couple of the wires and connectors that are corroded. 

Then cross my fingers and hope that's all it needed.

Thanks again WillWay! I'll let y'all know sometime around noon what if anything happens. Hoping for those other LEDs to light up.

Here's a better shot of the blown rectifier.


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## grand-dragon (Jan 20, 2013)

Thank You! WillWay

Well good news, I replaced one of the rectifiers and low an behold the 2 24vdc LEDs lit up but not the mill on one. But I still can't control the X,Y with the control panel. Also I'm probably doing something wrong when I try to push a design to the machine even thou the panel says start ready. But there is some bad news as well there are a couple semiconductors with cracks, would it be worth trying to replace them? Pics below.

Also I figured out what the unconnected wires went to, went to a plug on the side rail under the machine. I'm guessing to plug the power supply in for the control panel. Thou the plug isn't a standard US AC outlet.


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## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

grand-dragon said:


> Thank You! WillWay
> 
> Well good news, I replaced one of the rectifiers and low an behold the 2 24vdc LEDs lit up but not the mill on one. But I still can't control the X,Y with the control panel. Also I'm probably doing something wrong when I try to push a design to the machine even thou the panel says start ready. But there is some bad news as well there are a couple semiconductors with cracks, would it be worth trying to replace them? Pics below.
> 
> Also I figured out what the unconnected wires went to, went to a plug on the side rail under the machine. I'm guessing to plug the power supply in for the control panel. Thou the plug isn't a standard US AC outlet.


Those are at least a few of the shorted/failed parts I told you would be there! 35 years as an electronic technician does give a little insight!

Worth replacing?

Maybe, but miss *one* bad part and the whole thing may well self destruct again on power up! DC coupled circuits are fun that way! Or.. they may still be a short downstream that caused these to fail. Also possible that the rectifier failed first and took these out. Hard to say just looking at a few pictures!

PS They are less than a buck each from Digi-Key. Won't cost much to try.

PPS That diode didn't fail instantly and melt solder like that. there had likely been a problem for a while. Or it was left powered up with a problem for awhile. Just something to think about. Possibly a motor pulling excess current! There again the rectifier may have been leaky for awhile before totally failing. There again can't really tell from the pics. This is why it is important to have some knowledge of troubleshooting. It is easy to throw good money after bad, otherwise!


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## Willway (Aug 16, 2012)

grand-dragon said:


> Thank You! WillWay
> 
> Well good news, I replaced one of the rectifiers and low an behold the 2 24vdc LEDs lit up but not the mill on one. But I still can't control the X,Y with the control panel. Also I'm probably doing something wrong when I try to push a design to the machine even thou the panel says start ready. But there is some bad news as well there are a couple semiconductors with cracks, would it be worth trying to replace them? Pics below.
> 
> Also I figured out what the unconnected wires went to, went to a plug on the side rail under the machine. I'm guessing to plug the power supply in for the control panel. Thou the plug isn't a standard US AC outlet.


Hi Greg, I would go ahead and replace them, you've came this far and you want that job, you have nothing else to loose. Those look like the drivers for your X and Y. If a lightning strike or some other catastrophic event took them out there would be much more evident damage. It's great that you can still read the numbers on them, sometimes you just can't. The diode failure is probably what took out the drivers. I worked a long, long time as a machine control technician, and have seen a whole lot of this happen.


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## grand-dragon (Jan 20, 2013)

Just to make sure, as long as I get the TIP106's the letter K and the 8738 have no relevance? And it would be a good idea to replace all 16 of them even thou only 6 or 7 are bad?

If one of you could post a link that would be great. I only ask cause of my crappy net connection, what should only take a minute or two to search for takes me about an hour. 

THX! Greg


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## fixtureman (Jul 5, 2012)

I see there are some listed on Ebay this listing has 25 for $6.95 plus $2.25 shipping

Lot of 25 TIP106 80V 8A PNP Transistor Box 41 | eBay


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## Willway (Aug 16, 2012)

grand-dragon said:


> Just to make sure, as long as I get the TIP106's the letter K and the 8738 have no relevance? And it would be a good idea to replace all 16 of them even thou only 6 or 7 are bad?
> 
> If one of you could post a link that would be great. I only ask cause of my crappy net connection, what should only take a minute or two to search for takes me about an hour.
> 
> THX! Greg


Greg all of the numbers matter, take them to a shop or electronics store to have them cross referenced, they will have current books, I think those may be SCR's not transistors. I would almost bet on it. I will try to cross reference tonight.


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## plascell (Apr 3, 2013)

Willway said:


> Greg all of the numbers matter, take them to a shop or electronics store to have them cross referenced, they will have current books, I think those may be SCR's not transistors. I would almost bet on it. I will try to cross reference tonight.


Greg, The "8738" is a manufacture's datecode. In this case 87 is the year, 1987, and 38 is the week of the year, about mid-September. The "K" may be indicate minor changes in specification, such as temperature, or tolorance, etc. I would not think the "K" is significant now 20+ years later.

The TIP106 is an 80 Volt PNP Power Darlington Transistor. You could also use the 100 volt version, TIP107 without any changes.


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## grand-dragon (Jan 20, 2013)

Kool so that one from eBay should work fine awesome. 
Thanks for the help everyone, it's greatly appreciated. Very very much appreciated. 
Hope that posting is still up.


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## Willway (Aug 16, 2012)

grand-dragon said:


> Kool so that one from eBay should work fine awesome.
> Thanks for the help everyone, it's greatly appreciated. Very very much appreciated.
> Hope that posting is still up.


Greg don't forget the insulation kits and thermal compound. Mica transfers heat the best. $5.99 for 10 kits.

Set of 10 Pcs to 220 Mica Insulator Mounting Kits TO220 | eBay


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## grand-dragon (Jan 20, 2013)

Doh! How did I know there'd be something else. Lol! 
Thx! Willway for pointing that out. Thou I was hoping to just re-use what was there with thermal compound. That means I'll need 2 kits cause there's 16 on them on the board.


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## grand-dragon (Jan 20, 2013)

Well things are ordered, be bout a week before I can start the meticulous process of replacing all 16. The real tricky part is going to be getting the board out.
Thanks again for all the help.


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

Greg, you seem to be putting a lot of time and effort into this machine hoping this will lead to better things, which I can understand and I hope the end result is what you want.

I just hope that you are not painting yourself into a corner and the next job is even harder.


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## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

jw2170 said:


> Greg, you seem to be putting a lot of time and effort into this machine hoping this will lead to better things, which I can understand and I hope the end result is what you want.
> 
> I just hope that you are not painting yourself into a corner and the next job is even harder.


It's not something I would hire an employee based on, I would definitely check a perspective employee's educational background in the needed fields before hiring.

But, yes, the time frame of many, if not most jobs do not allow for having your problems solved for you over weeks on a forum.

Not a bad way to learn though. And if the employer does hire on that basis... caveat emptor, or he got what he asked for, I guess.

Hope it doesn't turn into a "Gee, thanks, but... " situation for him!


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## Willway (Aug 16, 2012)

You know when hiring an employee sometimes perspective and disposition mean much more than knowledge. What I mean by that is, will he see the job through whatever the outcome, or does he get angry or frustrated and give up. I have seen men I have worked with throw a $3000 Brown and Sharp circuit board on the bench and walk away. I had rather hire the man that sits down and keeps trying.


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## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

Willway said:


> You know when hiring an employee sometimes perspective and disposition mean much more than knowledge. What I mean by that is, will he see the job through whatever the outcome, or does he get angry or frustrated and give up. I have seen men I have worked with throw a $3000 Brown and Sharp circuit board on the bench and walk away. I had rather hire the man that sits down and keeps trying.


As long as his "trying" doesn't destroy the $3000 Brown and Sharp circuit board! It all depends on exactly what he is trying... and how. And... he can try all day, but if he is clueless, he is of no use to me! I do agree, that is better than getting angry and throwing something, but neither of those employees will work long for me... just sayin:stop:


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