# Fuming Oak



## Jack Wilson (Mar 14, 2010)

After MONTHS of talking about it and considering it, I DID it. I have been slowly making urns, some of curly maple and some of QSWO. In the photos you'll see 
1) Ammonia, nasty nasty nasty.
2) The FULL face mask WITH ammonia filters, ABSOLUTELY neccessary.
3) The barrel which is my fuming chamber, sorry, no pics of the inside, but, it kinda looks like the inside of a barrel.
4) Some QSWO urns in proccess, no skirt or feet attached yet.
5) A curly maple urn almost there.
6) Unfinished and Darn close to finished, just needs latch installed.

The Ammonia is SO strong, it burns my eyes even when they are squeezed shut, and let's not talk about trying to breathe. Really glad I bought the ammonia filters, I could still smell it when I was pouring, but it wasn't so strong. I began taking smaller breathes and moved along a little more quickly once I realized that the filters were not 100%


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

Hi Jack.

Be careful with that stuff.....

Can you buy in smaller quantities? Most people would not use very much for fuming in a lifetime?

Great finish, BTW.


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## Peter Harrison45 (Aug 26, 2013)

Just a question { proberly a dumb one }
but why do you need to fume?
and why Ammonia?


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## Jack Wilson (Mar 14, 2010)

Yeah, I could've gotten 1 gallon, but it was a weaker strength, (is that an oxymoron?), and 5 gallons was slighty less than 2 gallons of the lower grade stuff... I bouight the 5 gallon jug. Oh well, we'll see.


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## Jack Wilson (Mar 14, 2010)

Pete, you may be asking the wrong guy, but here is my answer; the tannin in the oak reacts with the fumes in the ammonia, (that's why ammonia), it gives it a richer brown grey color. This is really just a very expensive experiment for me. I hope it works out well or else I've wasted the money for the ammonia, and the time and materials for the urns.


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

I have seen articles whereby a fuming cabinet was built out of plastic to fume a full sized dresser.

Certainly adds to the finish.

Don't over-produce to begin with, Jack.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

That sure makes the grain stand out Jack. According to a book I got (and then found online for free) on Windsor furniture, the process was quite common at one time. In the book, it shows a tent built around a large piece, as in a wooden frame and sheet plastic.

A few years ago I hauled 100% ammonia to farmers in the spring and fall for fertilizer. It is wicked stuff if you get a face full. I actually got used to the smell after a while and missed it when I quit.


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## Jack Wilson (Mar 14, 2010)

James, I don't think I can over produce. It takes me too long to make them, and honestly I already have orders for 4 of them and I have only contacted 1 funeral home, there has to be close to 100 funeral homes in a 60 mile radius.


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

Jack Wilson said:


> Unfinished and Darn close to finished, just needs latch installed.


OK, my question is: What's the purpose of the latch? Yes, I know, to keep the top closed, but I don't see people wanting to view the ashes or anything. I would think it more appropriate to glue the top on, i.e., closed. Do people actually want hinges and a latch? 

My personal desire is to have my ashes fired out of a muzzloading cannon, over a nice mountainside. Used to be possible, but I've not found the link to the site that advertised it in years, so I don't know if it's still legal or not. 
Had an Army buddy, he always said he wanted his ashes spread over the ocean. Then anytime any of his friends took a drink of water, they could say, "Here's to you Dolbow".

Nice work by the way.


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## Jack Wilson (Mar 14, 2010)

Hey Theo, thanks. I think the hardware, which is a lot gold plated lock and key, really sets it off. Plus the key can be kept should someone wish to bury the urn, as we did with my moms urn, my dad has the key still. It's a connection to her, despite yes, all the other obvious connections, this is the last one. But you're right, and something Iwill cconsider.


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## BOjr (Dec 1, 2012)

How long do the urns sit in the barrel fuming and does that time period very with different types of wood ?

Buck


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## Jack Wilson (Mar 14, 2010)

BOjr said:


> How long do the urns sit in the barrel fuming and does that time period very with different types of wood ?
> 
> Buck


Buck, this is my first real attempt, I'm going for roughly 24 hours and we'll see how that looks. I understand that the wood needs to have tannin in it, so the lower the content, or if none at all then I don't know that fuming would have much effect regardless of the amount of time. I should have put a scrap of curly maple in with it, never thought of that til now. Next time.


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## Justaworker (Jul 18, 2013)

*NH3 Ammonia-Very Dangerous*



Cherryville Chuck said:


> That sure makes the grain stand out Jack. According to a book I got (and then found online for free) on Windsor furniture, the process was quite common at one time. In the book, it shows a tent built around a large piece, as in a wooden frame and sheet plastic.
> 
> A few years ago I hauled 100% ammonia to farmers in the spring and fall for fertilizer. It is wicked stuff if you get a face full. I actually got used to the smell after a while and missed it when I quit.


I have worked, up close and personal, with ammonia in the production of nitric acid. It is attracted to moisture....in your lungs, eyes, etc. It is EXTREMELY dangerous, especially if you are working alone. 
I strongly recommend that you review a MSDS sheet on ammonia and consider getting a very good, full-face, professional respirator. Seal test the respirator by covering the filter faces with both hands and try to draw air in. If your seal is good, it will pull the facemask tighter to your face. Again....do not take this chemical lightly!


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## MEBCWD (Jan 14, 2012)

Jack I think it is worth all the trouble you are going through to fume the oak. As people can see in the last picture the big difference the fuming makes in the final product, stain just won't work like the fuming.

As far as the key is concerned there are 2 ways of dealing with the construction of the urn, the way you are building it and also another way I have seen them built. 

I have seen urns of this type built with a panel dividing the urn into 2 compartments, a large lower compartment that holds the ashes that is accessed from the bottom by removing a panel held on by screws, and the smaller upper compartment that can hold pictures and small items that is accessed by the keyed lock. This could be another option for you to offer to the funeral homes.

I worked in drafting offices many years ago and used ammonia to develop blue line prints. Some of the print machines were vented to the outside so you very seldom smelled fumes but some of the small offices used a tube in a corner that set over a small container of ammonia and the exposed print paper went into the top of the tube by removing a plug and replacing it when the print was inserted. The paper was left in the tube for 30 to 45 seconds and then removed. Every time the plug was removed the smell of the ammonia filled the room then was carried away by the air conditioning system.

Just make sure that you change the filters on your respirator when needed and ventilate the area when possible.


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## elrodqfudp (Sep 5, 2011)

You have some really beautiful there.

If you have not been using activated charcoal filters, the you may wish to try them. I have not found anything they can not handle.


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## rwl7532 (Sep 8, 2011)

Any pictures of fumed next to non-fumed?
Preferably cut from the same source?


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## Jack Wilson (Mar 14, 2010)

Mike, to clarify, the last photo shows unstained and stained curly maple. Ralph, great idea, but nothing at this point. I'll try to do that, as well as fume some maple on my next go round.


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## Peter Harrison45 (Aug 26, 2013)

Hi Jack , so if it just a process of aging the wood have you tried using White vineger and steelwool.[ leave steelwool in solution over night] 
i used it on a couple of my renovation projects comes up trumps


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## gwizz (Mar 3, 2012)

Thank you for sharing, absolutely beautiful effect, it's great to learn new ( even if it's old ) things. Someday I'll have a reason to try this finish as it certainly makes a fantastic wood grain display. Your wood work is also great I love the feet, someday you should show everyone how you make the trim and feet on those urns.

Thanks again


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## Peter Harrison45 (Aug 26, 2013)

Hi Jack, If it's just a process for aging wood maybe you could use a solution of White vineger with steel wool left in it overnight{ no longer} it brings out the grain aswell.
Maybe also you could look into pet cementary's for customers


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## Jack Wilson (Mar 14, 2010)

*24 hour update*

It's been 24 hours, roughly, and I pulled my first set of urns out of my "fume box" to have a look at them, I am less than impressed. Have a look, not much difference. I put them back in again for another 24 hours, along with a scrap of maple and some fresh ammonia, not that I think I needed it.

I also want to apologize for the confusion I seem to be causing with that first set of pictures. The two urns side by side are both curly maple, one is STAINED, *NOT* fumed, the other of course is unstained. I probably should not have shown those two in this thread.


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## Jack Wilson (Mar 14, 2010)

Pete, I have not tried that, perhaps I should but it won't be right away. Lets face it, it takes me too long to do just about anything unless I'm super motivated, or getting paid .


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## neville9999 (Jul 22, 2010)

Jack you are correct to be careful with Ammonia, when I was an apprentice then the pollisher's were using ammonia and peroxide to bleach Tasmanian Blackwood to look like Tasmanian Oak, that all worked very well and I had not seen that happen before still that day the head polisher gave me a bottle and told me to "smell this" so I did, I have never forgotten the pain after I took a sniff, Ammonia cannot be treated with a lack of care, nice job on the chest. Neville


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## Jack Wilson (Mar 14, 2010)

Justaworker said:


> I have worked, up close and personal, with ammonia in the production of nitric acid. It is attracted to moisture....in your lungs, eyes, etc. It is EXTREMELY dangerous, especially if you are working alone.
> I strongly recommend that you review a MSDS sheet on ammonia and consider getting a very good, full-face, professional respirator. Seal test the respirator by covering the filter faces with both hands and try to draw air in. If your seal is good, it will pull the facemask tighter to your face. Again....do not take this chemical lightly!


If you'll notice, one of the first photos is of a full face mask, yes, it is a neccessity, and yes I DO use it and yes it does have filters designed FOR ammonia.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Even after only 24 hours there is a noticeable difference. The accounts I read suggested days of fuming.


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## Jack Wilson (Mar 14, 2010)

Chuck, thanks for the heads up, now I don’t feel so bad. I was expecting a MAJOR difference after 24 hours. So maybe I'll wait it out another day for a total of 72 hours in fumes and then check again.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Jack I think it was you that pointed out that the ammonia reacts with the tannin in the wood. Some species have a lot less that others and will respond differently. Oak is really high in tannin which is why it is used for barrels to store wine in. The tannin is a natural preservative which is also why it is used to "tan" leather. I would be patient up to a week if you can but I wouldn't expect it to change much more after that. Keep posting pictures, there are a bunch of us interested in seeing your results. Maybe this is a lost art that is worth reviving.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Jack, I think this is the link to the free Windsor Furniture book download. I remember coming across a page or 2 about fuming. Based on what I read, I don't think commercial stains had been invented yet. There were some references to a "blackening compound" that was home made. My guess is that when commercial stains did become readily available the time and smell involved with fuming sent it out of favor.

Mission Furniture by H. H. Windsor - Free Ebook


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## Jack Wilson (Mar 14, 2010)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> Jack, I think this is the link to the free Windsor Furniture book download. I remember coming across a page or 2 about fuming.
> 
> Mission Furniture by H. H. Windsor - Free Ebook


Thanks for the link, I will take advantage of that and I hope many others will as well. As far as pictures, I will keep you posted, any time I open the chamber to inspect progress, I will photograph a comparison, I might even think to post an incremental progress series that builds so you don't have to scroll back thru looking for the previous shot.


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## Jack Wilson (Mar 14, 2010)

Ok we are now at about 76-77 hours in the fuming process. I will post 2 pictures, the first shows 24 hours, the secong 77 hours, not sure how much difference there is. Also, took a scrap of curly maple, cut it in two and placed one piece of it in the chamber, its been in about 2 days, it is somewhat darker than its other half. I don't know that I care for the color in the maple. I will post contrasting pictures of the maple when I complete the oak fuming.

Now that I look at these photos side by side I really don't see any difference. The oak looked a little darker to me when I pulled it out to photograph, maybe it was just wishful thinking. Anyways I plan to leave it in now 'til Monday night, maybe Tuesday night, we'll see how my schedule goes. I will take 1 last photo of them then, along with that side by side comparison of the maple.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

It does seem to enhance the grain pattern, at least according to the photograph.


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## Jack Wilson (Mar 14, 2010)

I have read that Stickly put fans in his fuming chambers to keep those fumes moving, I might try that ... I might also try that white vinegar and steel wool method too. I want results.


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## Jack Wilson (Mar 14, 2010)

BTW Chuck, I went to that site and downloaded the file for the book, but I can't open it.


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## rwl7532 (Sep 8, 2011)

Have you kept a piece from the same wood but that piece is unfumed?
That's the only way to tell the amount of change.


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## Jack Wilson (Mar 14, 2010)

rwl7532 said:


> Have you kept a piece from the same wood but that piece is unfumed?
> That's the only way to tell the amount of change.


Hi Ralph, I have 5 oak urns, 2 are completed, 3 are still waiting for skirts and legs. The complete ones are in the chamber, originally they were all the same color. The photos show 1of each, they may not capture the true difference due to lighting but to my eyes the difference is not what I expected. Somehow I have a much darker color in mind. I may end up staining. I don't have unlimited time to leave them in. While I don't have a "real" deadline, I do need to move them, it's been 5 months since I started this, and I am losing the good weather. My shop is almost unusable in the winter. It's unheated and snow drifts right in pretty bad.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Jack Wilson said:


> BTW Chuck, I went to that site and downloaded the file for the book, but I can't open it.


I posted a thread a while back with a link that did work. Hopefully it still will. I don't know if I would build any of the designs as is but some had promise as a starting point in design. http://www.routerforums.com/tools-woodworking/41585-free-mission-furniture-plans.html


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Jack Wilson said:


> Hi Ralph, I have 5 oak urns, 2 are completed, 3 are still waiting for skirts and legs. The complete ones are in the chamber, originally they were all the same color. The photos show 1of each, they may not capture the true difference due to lighting but to my eyes the difference is not what I expected. Somehow I have a much darker color in mind. I may end up staining. I don't have unlimited time to leave them in. While I don't have a "real" deadline, I do need to move them, it's been 5 months since I started this, and I am losing the good weather. My shop is almost unusable in the winter. It's unheated and snow drifts right in pretty bad.


Jack, here is a link to info about the steel wool, vinegar mix. It also mentions using a strong tea mix to add tannins to wood that is low in tannins to speed up the reaction. That might possibly help speed things up for you. You can also buy straight tannin from wine making suppliers, it is a light brown in color. Leather tanners should also have a source of supply.

http://thefriendlyhome.blogspot.ca/2012/07/how-to-oxidize-wood.html


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## MEBCWD (Jan 14, 2012)

Jack like you I expected the fuming to impart much more color than we are seeing with your testing. The fumed pieces I have seen in the past have had a much greater contrast than you are getting. It might have something to do with moisture content of the oak. It might also have to do with the difference between newer oak and old growth oak that I remember my uncle fuming when I was a kid. The older oak seamed to be a little darker and more open grained than what you normally see today.

For quicker production it may be best to use a stain but it would be neat if you could say it was produced using an older process form the past.


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## Jack Wilson (Mar 14, 2010)

MEBCWD said:


> Jack like you I expected the fuming to impart much more color than we are seeing with your testing. The fumed pieces I have seen in the past have had a much greater contrast than you are getting. It might have something to do with moisture content of the oak. It might also have to do with the difference between newer oak and old growth oak that I remember my uncle fuming when I was a kid. The older oak seamed to be a little darker and more open grained than what you normally see today.
> 
> For quicker production it may be best to use a stain but it would be neat if you could say it was produced using an older process form the past.


Mike you are right, it would be great to say that these urns were fumed using age old methods. As it stands I gues I will be picking up some white vinegar if we don't already have some. I know I have steel wool so soon enough I will be practicing with that. To give credit where it's due, Pete Harrison45 from Australia suggested this to me in an earlier post, I had hoped I wouldn't be going there. Perhaps in the future, if I know it takes a week, or two weeks, then I can plan on leaving them in the chamber for that long from the getgo. But for now I need to get a move on.


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## Jack Wilson (Mar 14, 2010)

I removed the two urns from the fuming chamber, which is just a cardboard 35 gallon can with a lid. However after removing both urns and setting them aside, (while wearing my life support mask), I removed my mask and stuck my head in the chamber and took a sniff, nothing!  What does that mean? Does the ammonia wear off? Do I need a larger pan for the ammonia so it has more surface area to evaporate from? I don't know the answers, but I expected that the ammonia fumes would linger. Also I included a couple pics of the outside and inside of the chamber, as well as 1 pic of a piece of maple that spent some time in the chamber, it is seen next to its other half which stayed out. Quite a difference, still, I would not call 1 experiment a conclusive result. At this point I would not neccessarily expect consistentency with regards to the maple. Lastly is a shot of the fumed urn, unfortunatly I didn't bring along an un-fumed piece of oak, just trust me on this, the results are less than stellar.


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## MEBCWD (Jan 14, 2012)

Jack I did not even think about it before but you might be slowly (or quickly) loosing ammonia fumes through the cardboard sides of the drum. 

I have tried to remember what my uncle used as a chamber and remember a large box out of wood with rubber seals around the open end. The lid was hinged at the top so it would lay on top when opened and had 4 hasps, 1 each on each side and 2 on bottom. he used large dowels to secure the hasps. It had a very heavy finish on the outside and this probably sealed any openings in the box joints. I don't remember weather there was finish on the inside or not. He had glass bowls that he used to hold the ammonia in the chamber. I don't remember any fans for circulation but I don't remember anything about the inside of the chamber.
I remember watching him put a pair of nightstands in the chamber followed by 2 bowls of ammonia that he put on the floor of the chamber and positioned with a shop made wooden tool. The tool was basically a "Y" shaped piece of plywood with an extension on one of the tips to hook the lip of a bowl or leg of a piece of furniture and pull it from the chamber.
Before he started loading or unloading the chamber he opened an overhead door on one end of the shop and the double doors on the other end of the shop and started a large shop fan for ventilation by the double doors. He always made me stand by the overhead door when he was loading and unloading the chamber and even with the doors open and fan running you could smell the ammonia by the overhead door.

That was about 53 or 54 years ago! Thanks for the memories!


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## MEBCWD (Jan 14, 2012)

While I was working in the shop today I was thinking about the chamber needed for fuming the oak pieces so I did a search and found that cardboard boxes were used in some examples and frames made from wood covered in heavy weight plastic were used in others.

How to Fume Furniture with Ammonia - Fine Woodworking Video

Preview - Fuming with Ammonia - Fine Woodworking Article

http://www.codesmiths.com/shed/workshop/techniques/oakfuming/

The size of the chamber might also play a part in how fast the oak will change color by concentrating the fumes from the ammonia. I like the idea of a clear plastic chamber made of a wood frame and plastic sheeting that would make it easier to see what level of color has developed in the project.


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## Jack Wilson (Mar 14, 2010)

MEBCWD said:


> I like the idea of a clear plastic chamber made of a wood frame and plastic sheeting that would make it easier to see what level of color has developed in the project.


I like that idea too, but the drum was available and it works, (kinda). I suppose I could laquer or varnish it, but I'm not convinced that's the problem.


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## Jack Wilson (Mar 14, 2010)

It seems I need to be a member to read the Fine Wood Working article, the video however was available and oddly enough it kind of looks like the same amount of change in color I have been getting. Maybe after applying the laquer coat it will draw out the color more. I will post photos of it when finished. No comparison pics, at least not at this time, just a completed urn.


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## MEBCWD (Jan 14, 2012)

Jack Wilson said:


> It seems I need to be a member to read the Fine Wood Working article, the video however was available and oddly enough it kind of looks like the same amount of change in color I have been getting. Maybe after applying the laquer coat it will draw out the color more. I will post photos of it when finished. No comparison pics, at least not at this time, just a completed urn.


Jack the links I posted were for the pictures showing the different chambers used. It is interesting that the box used in the video is a med weight cardboard box so your heavy weight disk pack barrel should be even better in terms of leaching fumes.

If I remember correctly my uncle would put the pieces in the chamber before leaving the shop for the day and left the pieces in the chamber over night and removed them first thing the next morning.

When you apply the finish it will make a big difference.

Also the tannin content will have a big influence on the outcome of the color. Woods with little or no tannin content can be treated with tannic acid and then fumed after the tannic acid has dried. The samples I have seen vary greatly with cherry and butternut giving decent results. If your maple test pieces don't seem to react with the ammonia you might try treating them with the tannic acid.

This makes me want to experiment! Now all I need is the time!


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## GulfcoastGuy (Feb 27, 2012)

Tannin content can be augmented with the application of a wash of tea. I used it in eboninzing with iron acetate. If you want to really bump 'em up make the tea from - *Quebracho extract*


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## rwl7532 (Sep 8, 2011)

Certainly can experiment cheaply enough:
Lorann Crafting Products 6140 Tannic Acid Powder 1 Oz | eBay


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## Jack Wilson (Mar 14, 2010)

*A couple of updates*

1) 3 urns ready to go, photo attached, 1 curly maple and 2 quarter sawn white oak.
2) I put some 0000 steel wool in white vinagar almost a week ago. Apparently I got the good stuff. My steel wool must be stainless because, not a trace of rust. Bummer.:'(


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

classically well done boxes Jack!!!


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

The difference in the oak is striking, the maple didn't react to the same extent but it is more interesting than without the treatment.


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

Love the curly maple, Jack.

Just the right mix of pattern and patina.


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## Jack Wilson (Mar 14, 2010)

Thank you, guys, for your kind words. James you've been to my shop, you know it's messy, but despite that, I take great pride in my work and won't settle for mediocre.


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