# Frame and panel



## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

I can remember seeing somewhere a calculator for working out the dimensions of the part for a frame and panel door. - rails, stiles and panel.


I believe it was in a Bob and Rick web page somewhere.

Can anyone help? :angry:


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi James

Here's a link or two BUT you don't need one just use the magic number 4 to get ALL the dimensions you need.. 

Dynamic Calculators - Router Forums
http://www.routerforums.com/dynamic-calculators/3460-raised-panel-door-calculator.html
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How to use the magic number of 4 ▼
Sommerfeld's Tools For Wood

Catalog Page 27 Fine-Tuning Your Rail & Stile Bits and Techniques for Perfect Joints

Catalog Page 28 Making the perfect door

Catalog Page 29 Making the perfect door continued

OR
http://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shop...ing_accessories.html#raised_panel_calc_anchor
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jw2170 said:


> I can remember seeing somewhere a calculator for working out the dimensions of the part for a frame and panel door. - rails, stiles and panel.
> 
> 
> I believe it was in a Bob and Rick web page somewhere.
> ...


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## CharleyL (Feb 28, 2009)

Rockler sells a program for this. I have one and it works quite well. 

#22771 Woodshop Calculator CD-ROM In Stock $24.99 Each


Charley


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## mpbc48 (Sep 17, 2010)

Hi James

I plugged the formulas into an execl spreadsheet and let the computer do the work.

You are welcome to use it if you like.

In column A, plug in the width of your stiles, the length of your tenon and the expansion allowance for height and width of your panel.

Then, in column D, enter the height of the door and in column E, the width of the door.

The rest will be calculated for you.

http://myweb.cableone.net/mikec/wood/randscalc.xls

If you have any questions, please ask.

Here is the pdf that got the formulas from.

http://www.ptreeusa.com/RPD Instructions.pdf

Mike


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi James 

I must say this one more time ,you Don't need a Calculator or Execl, you just need to keep the magic number 4 in your head, the real key is to use a match set of bits and once you set the 1st bit in place you don't want to move the router up or down..
You don't need a sled just just rip the parts to size after the router job is done.. if you rip your parts to 2 7/16" wide all the math is done for you..

Almost all R & P router bits cut 7/16" deep..


http://www.routerforums.com/table-mounted-routing/23364-mitered-raised-panel-doors.html

======


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## mpbc48 (Sep 17, 2010)

Hi Bob,

I know my inexperience will probably show here, but I don't understand the magic number 4 system. (I can't find it in the links.)

Also, it looks like the Summerfeld's plans restrict you to a 2.5" stile and a .5" overlay for their template to work.

The Freud formulas allow for any amount of overlay, stile width, tenon length and panel expansion amounts (depends on type of wood), just plug in your door height, width and the tenon length and all dimensions are given to you.

Mike


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

HI Mike

Marc's S. new bits cut 1/2" deep his old sets (CMT/Freud) cut 7/16" deep ) that's the neat thing about the magic number 4. it can be use on all of them.
When you mill the stock the 7/16" or 1/2" is gone to speak about because of the joint.
!/2" overlay is the standard for most hinges(overlays)

" depends on type of wood " the number 4 works on all panels, it's best to make it 1/16" smaller on the panels so it can float just a little bit..

No math needed just the magic number -4 on the parts,,
Once you know the opening or overlay you want, take the -4 to them and they will fit every time...the rails are the only part that you need the 4 on ,the stiles are always cut to the right size ,with the overlay added on 19" tall door would be 20" tall stiles..
But always start with 5" or 6" wide stock, do the mill work and than rip all the stock to 2 7/16" wide, than you end up with all 4 parts for the door..the panel needs the magic number 4 on all sides so it can fit right in the door parts..
If you don't move the router up or down you don't need to sand the door parts the norm.. 

==========
=========


mpbc48 said:


> Hi Bob,
> 
> I know my inexperience will probably show here, but I don't understand the magic number 4 system. (I can't find it in the links.)
> 
> ...


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

Thanks guys for all the responses.

I will be using a R & S set with panel cutter.

maybe I should do some test cuts to define the joint size.

I will digest all the information.


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## mpbc48 (Sep 17, 2010)

Hi Bob,

I'm feeling really thick headed right now because I still don't know where the "4" comes in. Can you show me in a formula or something where/how the 4 is used?

Sorry to be so dense, but if that is a simpler way to do it, I sure want to understand it.

Mike


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

HI Mike

They say a picture is worth a 1000 words
http://www.routerforums.com/attachm...ing/42724d1301494171-frame-panel-100_2086.jpg

=========



mpbc48 said:


> Hi Bob,
> 
> I'm feeling really thick headed right now because I still don't know where the "4" comes in. Can you show me in a formula or something where/how the 4 is used?
> 
> ...


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## mpbc48 (Sep 17, 2010)

Hi Bob,

Thanks for the picture, I now understand where the 4 fits in that situation. But, unless I'm doing it wrong, the 4 doesn't work if you change the 2.5 inch stile width.

Say you want to use a 2 inch stile on a 12 inch wide door. 12 - 4 would still be 8 when you would actually need a 9 inch rail to have a 12 inch wide door.

Thanks,
Mike


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Mike

2.5" or 2 7/16" wide no big deal it's just 1/16", just for kicks pull some MDF stock out and use the 4" magic number to make the parts for the door than you will see it and how easy it can be done..12" wide door -4" = 8" long on the rail and it will come out right on the button.BUT do it the easy way start with some 5" or 5 1/2" wide stock, but use the cope cutter 1st on the 5" wide board that is 8" long and than put the pattern bit in place and run stock by the bit and the 5" wide stile part once you have used both bits on the stock rip it on the table saw to 2 7/16" wide.

I'm sure you will say WOW that's easy and fast and dead on the mark..


======


mpbc48 said:


> Hi Bob,
> 
> Thanks for the picture, I now understand where the 4 fits in that situation. But, unless I'm doing it wrong, the 4 doesn't work if you change the 2.5 inch stile width.
> 
> ...


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## derek willis (Jan 21, 2009)

I found it quite easy with my door panel set, Freud gave full instructions with it and everything worked out perfectly every time.


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## mpbc48 (Sep 17, 2010)

I'll give it a go.

Thanks,
Mike


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## polopapa (Mar 27, 2011)

Try this one.



woodcentralDOTcom/bparticles/rpanelc.xls


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

polopapa said:


> Try this one.
> 
> 
> 
> woodcentralDOTcom/bparticles/rpanelc.xls


Thanks, got into the web site, but could not find the article.


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

James...

You can find Don's link at the very bottom of this page:

Woodcentral's Badger Pond Article Archives

under downloads, Raised Panel Calculator


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## semaj (Apr 2, 2011)

James, Rockler sells what they call Woodshop calculator which is a program for your computer that when gien the opening of your cabinet it will tell you exactly the dimentions needed for the rails and stiles and panel. I have it on my computer and it works just perfect.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

The hard way ▼
Raised Panel Calculator CD with FREE Raised Panel DVD Details

The easy way ▼
Glass Panel Doors Made Easy-Sommerfeld's Tools For Wood
Arched Raised Panels Made Easy-Sommerfeld's Tools For Wood
Mini Raised Panels Made Easy-Sommerfeld's Tools For Wood
Shaker Raised Panels Made Easy-Sommerfeld's Tools For Wood

======


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

*the easy way for me....*



bobj3 said:


> The hard way ▼
> Raised Panel Calculator CD with FREE Raised Panel DVD Details
> 
> The easy way ▼
> ...


Hi BJ, 
I have 
"Glass panel doors made easy" and "Cabinetmaking made easy" by Marc.

Got then for $A10 .

Did not think to look there.


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## RUSTYIII (Aug 24, 2011)

i just tried to post this but much more detailed, anyway cabinet planner is a real easy proigram to use for the average computer guy it will generate all the info you need for all cabinet parts ,its not CAD but it gets the job done, its cheap to . you can click and drag cabinets for prints and so on, but it will also do the doors individually just plug in the ID of the opening if you are interested in the whole cutlist for all parts


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## jlord (Nov 16, 2009)

bobj3 said:


> HI Mike
> 
> Marc's S. new bits cut 1/2" deep his old sets (CMT/Freud) cut 7/16" deep ) that's the neat thing about the magic number 4. it can be use on all of them.
> When you mill the stock the 7/16" or 1/2" is gone to speak about because of the joint.
> ...


Hi,
This works for most rail & stile bits as most have a 7/16" detail, but if you are using the newer Sommerfeld bits you need to rip your parts 2-1/2" or you will end up 1/8" short if using his formula as described. Ripping your parts to 2-7/16" X 2 (right & left stiles) will compound itself to 1/8". I know 1/8" is still not that much but with overlay hinges your reveals will be noticeably off with a few doors mounted next to each other. 

http://www.sommerfeldtools.com/sommerfelds/Catalog/page28.pdf


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## mpbc48 (Sep 17, 2010)

Hi James,

Since this thread has been resurrected, I simplified my original calculator post. It is much easier to understand now and still works for any tenon length or stile width.

http://myweb.cableone.net/mikec/wood/randscalc.xls

Mike


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## jlord (Nov 16, 2009)

mpbc48 said:


> Hi Bob,
> 
> Thanks for the picture, I now understand where the 4 fits in that situation. But, unless I'm doing it wrong, the 4 doesn't work if you change the 2.5 inch stile width.
> 
> ...


Hi Mike.
Example opening using 1/2" overlay hinges: 11"wide X 19" tall. Your finished doors will be 12"wide X 20"tall finished. The rail & stile set has a 7/16" profile.

If you are using a rail & stile set that has a profile that is 7/16" deep (most are this size) & you want 2" for your rail & stiles then you will end up ripping your parts (rails & stiles) to 2-7/16" wide. Top rail will be wider if making an arched door (about 4" depending on template set). To get the length of your top & bottom rail deduct 4" so you end up at 8". Never mind about the 7/16" as that will not count when the stile profile fits into the cope end of the rails. It occupies the same space & cancels itself out when assembled. Your length of your stiles will be 20". That will give you a 1/2" overlay top & bottom for a 19" opening. This works for any bit. 

The only time you need to account for the profile of a bit (7/16" or 1/2" depending on set) is ripping each part to final width. As far as finish width of a door just deduct the stile widths (right & left sides) minus the profile depth (don't bother counting it in your measurement). You don't need to account for profile depth when measuring for rail length. It will occupy the same space when assembled & doesn't count. For a solid raised panel deduct 4" plus a 1/4" for both width & lenght for movement. I use Panalign Strips, 2 on each side to keep panel centered during movement & ratteling.

I use the newer Sommerfeld bits most of the time & they have a 1/2" profile. So for a square raised panel door with 2" rails & stiles I rip all parts to 2-1/2" wide. For a 12" x 20" door I cut my stiles to 20" & my rails to 8". The only difference for an arched door is the top rail will ripped to 4" wide for my templates. So my top rail size will end up being 4" wide by 8" long. My raised center panel will be 15-3/4" tall X 7-3/4" wide. I still only deduct 4" for heigth & width plus 1/4" for movement. Do not glue in solid panel it needs to move during the seasons.

If you were to make doors to match an existing set then your rails & stiles would be ripped to match. I recently made some doors for a kitchen cabinet that was added to an existing kitchen. The existing rails & stiles were 1-1/2". So I deducted 3" from the finished door width to get the rail lengths. I used a set of bits that had a 7/16" profile to match so my finished rails & stiles were ripped to 1-15/16" wide.

Cut your cope cuts first then rip the profiles to eliminate tearout.


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## mpbc48 (Sep 17, 2010)

Hi James,

I guess I should have indicated which James I was posting the simplified calculator for. The OP, James was looking for a calculator and since the thread came back alive, I figured I should make it more user friendly just in case James or someone else wanted such.

As usual, there are many ways to "skin a horse". I like the Freud formula method and 
that is what the calculator is based upon. It is brain-free for cutting your material to size.

Mike


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## jlord (Nov 16, 2009)

No problem Mike. Cutting door parts to size baffles many.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi

Once you use the Magic number of 4 you will never go back to the old way 


========


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

mpbc48 said:


> Hi James,
> 
> Since this thread has been resurrected, I simplified my original calculator post. It is much easier to understand now and still works for any tenon length or stile width.
> 
> ...


thanks Mike,

I will check this out when I get home...


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## mpbc48 (Sep 17, 2010)

You're welcome James, I hope you find it as useful as I do.

Mike


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## mpbc48 (Sep 17, 2010)

bobj3 said:


> Hi
> 
> Once you use the Magic number of 4 you will never go back to the old way
> ========


Hi Bob,

Mybe I'll understand the use of the magic number 4 if you tell me how it works with my project.

I'm making some rather small doors. The door dimensions are 8" high by 5" wide. For these, the rail and stile widths need to be narrow in order to not look overly heavy. I'm planning 1.25 inches. (I may go to 1" depending upon how 1.25 looks.)

The way I understand the magic number 4, I would take the 5" width and subtract 4, giving me 1 inch for the rail length. A 1 inch rail would clearly not be long enough to make a 5" wide door with stiles at 1.25 inches wide. 

Mike


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## mpbc48 (Sep 17, 2010)

By the way, changing the calulator to be mm friendly is a pretty minor task. I'll be happy to do it if someone would find it useful.

Mike


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## jlord (Nov 16, 2009)

mpbc48 said:


> Hi Bob,
> 
> Mybe I'll understand the use of the magic number 4 if you tell me how it works with my project.
> 
> ...


Hi Mike.
What are you building? If it's a small project maybe you need a junior set such as this.
Junior Cove Raised Panel Set-Sommerfeld's Tools For Wood

If your using a standard set of bits your rail length would be 2-1/2" for a 5" door with stiles that are 1-1/4" wide. 3" if you drop down to the 1" stiles. 

If your project is a small box or something like a jewelry box maybe the proportions would look better with a junior set.


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## jlord (Nov 16, 2009)

mpbc48 said:


> Hi James,
> 
> Since this thread has been resurrected, I simplified my original calculator post. It is much easier to understand now and still works for any tenon length or stile width.
> 
> ...


Hi Mike.
Looking at your calculator I think the rail length should be 13" not 13-7/8 on a 17" wide door using 2" stiles. I assume the 7/8" (7/16" X 2 = 7/8" ?)was for the profile in each stile but you do not count that as the cope in the end of the rails would eliminate that measurement. If your cutters have a 7/16" profile then the finish width of the stiles would be 2-7/16". Rip to 2-1/2" if your cutters have a 1/2" profile such as the newer Sommerfeld bits do.

The center panel if raised (solid wood not flat plywood center panel) should be 12-3/4 for seasonal movement & the use of panelign strips or space balls.

After changing the measurements around it gives the right sizes but one would have to know what the measurements are to begin with. Nice calculator if you know what needs to be there & what doesn't.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Mike

That's a big door/frame how about one that's 2 1/2" x 3" total size , the key is to use the right bit set Marc will show you how to do that safe and so easy, his video on a small bank and a small clock with many door frames to make the clock ..that are make up from 3/4"/1" wide parts for the frames parts..Like james said mill the stock and then rip it to size after..

You will not see Marc rip the stock, he will show you some jigs to do it with but I came up the rip way..

Junior Cove Raised Panel Set-Sommerfeld's Tools For Wood
3pc. CMT Junior Raised Panel Set-Sommerfeld's Tools For Wood

Junior Grandfather Clock Plans-Sommerfeld's Tools For Wood
Mini Raised Panels Made Easy-Sommerfeld's Tools For Wood


http://www.sommerfeldtools.com/sommerfelds/Catalog/page28.pdf
http://www.sommerfeldtools.com/sommerfelds/Catalog/page29.pdf

====



mpbc48 said:


> Hi Bob,
> 
> Mybe I'll understand the use of the magic number 4 if you tell me how it works with my project.
> 
> ...


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## mpbc48 (Sep 17, 2010)

Hi James,

I now understand how you have arrived at your results, and I'll try to respond to them point by point.

_Looking at your calculator I think the rail length should be 13" not 13-7/8 on a 17" wide door using 2" stiles. I assume the 7/8" (7/16" X 2 = 7/8" ?)was for the profile in each stile but you do not count that as the cope in the end of the rails would eliminate that measurement. If your cutters have a 7/16" profile then *the finish width of the stiles would be 2-7/16"*. Rip to 2-1/2" if your cutters have a 1/2" profile such as the newer Sommerfeld bits do._


The 13 7/8" is accurate. 

The difference appears to be in how you measure the width of your stiles. According to the Freud method, ripping to a finished width of 2 7/16" would make a 2 7/16" stile, not a 2" stile. That explains the 7/8" difference. I have not seen where the profile portion of the stile is not counted in the overall width of a stile, but I understand there are different methods of doing virtually everything.

_The center panel if raised (solid wood not flat plywood center panel) should be 12-3/4 for seasonal movement & the use of panelign strips or space balls._

This difference is also a result of the stile width measurement.

_After changing the measurements around it gives the right sizes but one would have to know what the measurements are to begin with. Nice calculator if you know what needs to be there & what doesn't._

I'm not sure what changes you are talking about, but I'm guessing the confusion lies again with the stile width measurement. 

You *do* know what the necessary measurements are to begin with;

The first section asks for the measurements of the door opening, (Height and Width) 

The second section asks for;

1. The desired overlay of your door.
2. The width of your stiles. (Note that if you plug in your finished width of 2 7/16, you do get the 13" you were expecting. If the terminology were changed from Stile width to rip width, would it match your method?)
3. The tenon length of your profile bit.
4. The amount of panel expansion you would like to allow for.

That's it. 

One should already know these measurements in advance no matter what method you plan to use.

The results in the red section reflect the lengths to cut your rails and stiles and the height and width to cut your panel for the finished size of the door you want.

It appears the confusion all boils down to the difference in measuring the width of stiles.

Mike


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## mpbc48 (Sep 17, 2010)

bobj3 said:


> Hi Mike
> 
> That's a big door/frame how about one that's 2 1/2" x 3" total size , the key is to use the right bit set Marc will show you how to do that safe and so easy, his video on a small bank and a small clock with many door frames to make the clock ..that are make up from 3/4"/1" wide parts for the frames parts..Like james said mill the stock and then rip it to size after..


Hi Bob, 

Okay, 8 x 5 *is* a big door by comparison. :"^) 

Please use your door measurements of 2 1/2" x 3" to help me understand how the magic number 4 works.

Thanks,
Mike


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## mpbc48 (Sep 17, 2010)

Hi James,

I have been eyeballing that Jr R&S bit set. But for now, I'm just playing around with ideas and using my regular set. So far the regular set looks fine. But if I end up going as small as the doors Bob is talking about, the Jr set will be in the shopping cart.

Mike


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Mike
no need to drop a ton of money for the set,you can get the one below that will do the job just fine.
.
Miniature Matched Rail & Stile Cutters
for Boxes and Doors

MLCS Rail and Stile Carbide Tipped Router Bits 2


========



mpbc48 said:


> Hi James,
> 
> I have been eyeballing that Jr R&S bit set. But for now, I'm just playing around with ideas and using my regular set. So far the regular set looks fine. But if I end up going as small as the doors Bob is talking about, the Jr set will be in the shopping cart.
> 
> Mike


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Mike

The magic number of 4 is not in stone, it's just a place for you try it out the magic number can be 2 or less,it comes down to the size of the frame parts..most R & P bit sets will remove 7/16" of the stock or to say 7/16" times 2..so to say the frame parts can't be smaller than 3/4" wide..I know it's hard to get it but once you do you will say WOW that's the easy way  no math needed at all.. 

==========



mpbc48 said:


> Hi Bob,
> 
> Okay, 8 x 5 *is* a big door by comparison. :"^)
> 
> ...


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## mpbc48 (Sep 17, 2010)

Hi Bob,

Okay, I thought the magic number was a constant.

Mike


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## jlord (Nov 16, 2009)

True some label differently. Some will measure the stile with or without the detail (tenon). You don't need to bother with the size of the detail (tenon) machined into the stiles when measuring for rail length. That will disappear into the coped end of the rails & that measurement will cancel itself out. 

On the Sommerfeld videos such as Bob mentioned he measures the rails & styles with out the detail (tenon). The thinking is if you are going to make new doors use a 2" measurement for your rails & styles (does not include detail or tenon length as you do not count this measurement when cutting the other door parts). You could just deduct 4" from the total width & you will have your rail length. 12" door will have 8" rails, a 17" door will have 13" rail length etc. 

Here is a sample of a set of doors off a bathroom cabinet I made. The doors are 10-1/2" wide. My stiles & bottom rail are ripped to 2-1/2" wide (top rail has an arch so it is 4"wide).
The rails are 6-1/2" long (10-1/2" - 4" = 6-1/2"long). The 4" measurement comes from the stiles not counting the detail of 1/2" as it fits into the coped end of the rails. 

*Picture one points where the rail & stile join together & this is where you measure for rail length.

**Picture two shows the where the total width of the style with the detail (tenon) 1/2" over would be but is hidden by the coped end of the rail. These are ripped to a finish dimension of 2-1/2" 

***Picture 3 shows the joint at the 2" mark. This is where you measure for rail length.


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## mpbc48 (Sep 17, 2010)

Hi James,

http://www.ptreeusa.com/RPD Instructions.pdf

Step 1 is where I learned the process and where the formula for the calculator comes from. It seems far simpler than other methods probably because it is the first one I ever saw.

One of the beauties of woodworking is being able to accomplish the same results using many different methods. In this case that ability is also a source of confusion. 

The bottom line here is that the different methods work equally well as long as you know how to use the measurements for each.

Mike


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