# A Few Questions about Templates and Tools Needed for project.



## cuonebay (Apr 13, 2010)

Hello Everyone, I am pretty new around here. I have been reading for a while, but this is my first post. Here is my question.

I have been making some more decor items and selling them at regional gift shops etc... They have been selling well. Several of the items I cut out of 3/4" MDF and then router the edges.... and complete the item. I have been projecting my drawing onto the piece of MDF and then use a Rotozip to cut out the piece. It was been working ok, but his process takes to long. As my business has been picking up, I need a more efficient way of cutting out these pieces. I am not to the point where I need a CNC machine, yet.... I have about 10 different basic designs that I cut out over and over again.

Can you please give me some ideas as what I could do? Maybe a larger more industrial type router with a larger cutting bit which would allow me to cut the 3/4" MDF much more quickly. A Rotozip with 1/8" bit takes 30 min. to cut out two pieces. The pieces don't have to be exact like a machine cut piece. Many of them are antiqued with the use of plasters/pants over the MDF.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Have a great weekend.

Matt


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

Hi Matt

Welcome to the forum.

If you could add the tools and equipment you already have to your profile we may be better able to help you.

Most flat items can be cut quickly using male/female templates and router guides.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Matt

I'm sure if you use a 1/4"or 1/2" thick MDF template and a real plunge router you can get the job done in 1/4 the time , if not less 

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cuonebay said:


> Hello Everyone, I am pretty new around here. I have been reading for a while, but this is my first post. Here is my question.
> 
> I have been making some more decor items and selling them at regional gift shops etc... They have been selling well. Several of the items I cut out of 3/4" MDF and then router the edges.... and complete the item. I have been projecting my drawing onto the piece of MDF and then use a Rotozip to cut out the piece. It was been working ok, but his process takes to long. As my business has been picking up, I need a more efficient way of cutting out these pieces. I am not to the point where I need a CNC machine, yet.... I have about 10 different basic designs that I cut out over and over again.
> 
> ...


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## cuonebay (Apr 13, 2010)

Thanks for your replies. Currently I have a Porter Cable router. It the 890 model. I don't currently have a plunge router, but getting one would not be a problem. I will search around and see what else I can learn about making the templates and how to use them. Any good websites? Thanks,

Matt


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## Dr.Zook (Sep 10, 2004)

Hello Matt, and welcome to the RouterForums.


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## istracpsboss (Sep 14, 2008)

Hi Matt

Use your existing pattern with one of these and your existing 890.
My store- Super Carbide Tools: Single bit, 2 pc Set, 1 2 Shank

Cheers

Peter


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

cuonebay said:


> Thanks for your replies. Currently I have a Porter Cable router. It the 890 model. I don't currently have a plunge router, but getting one would not be a problem. I will search around and see what else I can learn about making the templates and how to use them. Any good websites? Thanks,
> 
> Matt


Hi Matt:

A bunch of questions:

1. MDF what thickness and how large are your finished pieces. If you're using templates 3"x4" a trim router might be the best bet but if they're 10"x12" a production router would help.

2. do you have efficient dust collection? Routing MDF with a 1/8" bit isn't too bad but add the efficiency of a 1/4" or larger bit and you'll generate clouds of dust. MDF dust is toxic. Sufficiently so, it is one of the few things I won't burn in my wood stove.

3. Do you have a router table?

4. Are all your pieces male (i.e. routing the outside edges) or female, or both? Along the same vein, if you route out a male component do you use the resulting female component and thus it needs to be cleanly done as well?

5. do you texture the surfaces? i.e. are your pieces sculpted on top or flat.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Matt

Yes you will need a plunge base for your router and a set of brass guides for your PC router base plus a pin nailer, use the pin nailer to hold the pattern to the blank 1/4" thick MDF stock, put the guide in the router and chuck up a good bit and go around your pattern(s) and you have just made a female and a male templates, then put your female template down on your blank stock go around the inside of the template with the guide in place and you have just cut out the part quick and easy and all done with the router..
Guide Set ▼
9 Piece Router Template Guide Set
Pin Nailer ▼
23 Gauge Air Pin Nailer
3-In-1 Stapler/Brad/Pin Nailer

Here's some tips from the RWS most are for the router table but they can be used for the plunge router also..


Router Workshop: maytip

Router Workshop: quick pattern

Router Workshop: rabbet bit pattern

Router Workshop: Router Tip Archive

========



cuonebay said:


> Thanks for your replies. Currently I have a Porter Cable router. It the 890 model. I don't currently have a plunge router, but getting one would not be a problem. I will search around and see what else I can learn about making the templates and how to use them. Any good websites? Thanks,
> 
> Matt


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## cuonebay (Apr 13, 2010)

allthunbs said:


> Hi Matt:
> 
> A bunch of questions:
> 
> ...


*I do texture the surfaces with different types of plasters & Paints. I do sculpt some of them.

Thanks for all your help. You guys have really helped open my eyes to some other possibilities. Look forward to hearing your new ideas.

Thanks,

Matt*


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## cuonebay (Apr 13, 2010)

Thanks for your help. I made one of these templates this morning and it worked well. I just used the router I currently have until I decided which plunge router to purchased. Thanks for the links. I will have to make a trip to Harbor Freight and pick up some stuff. 

Thanks again, Matt



bobj3 said:


> Hi Matt
> 
> Yes you will need a plunge base for your router and a set of brass guides for your PC router base plus a pin nailer, use the pin nailer to hold the pattern to the blank 1/4" thick MDF stock, put the guide in the router and chuck up a good bit and go around your pattern(s) and you have just made a female and a male templates, then put your female template down on your blank stock go around the inside of the template with the guide in place and you have just cut out the part quick and easy and all done with the router..
> Guide Set ▼
> ...


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

cuonebay said:


> *I do texture the surfaces with different types of plasters & Paints. I do sculpt some of them.
> 
> Thanks for all your help. You guys have really helped open my eyes to some other possibilities. Look forward to hearing your new ideas.*


Hi Matt:

When you go to the store, get yourself a good particulate matter face mask with dust cannisters. Something like this one:

Deluxe Respirator - Lee Valley Tools

Get yourself a full face shield and/or good safety glasses. 

Dust collection is imperative. I use a cyclone lid like this one...

Veritas® Cyclone Lids - Lee Valley Tools

but there are lots of alternatives and some you can make at home.

The male template guides your router around the outside edges of your workpiece. A female template will require that you drill a hole into your workpiece to provide a starting point for your router bit and the template will guide you as you remove material from the middle of your workpiece.

Given the size of your pieces, the production router will be the best bet.

A typical "nice" router would look like this:
1.	½" chuck: Smaller bit shafts can be fit using an adapter.
2.	2 wrench collet: This is getting scarce but search for it. Sometimes it is hidden or it can be retrofitted. This is the alternative to the spindle lock which I consider dangerous.
3.	Variable speed: (8,000 rpm to >24,000 rpm.) Nice but close to useless <3HP, but mandatory >3HP. Note that the slower speeds are mandatory for larger bits but you need the horsepower to push them.
4.	Plunge base: This is the most versatile, but a fixed base is fine for a third or fourth router
5.	Bit clearance: Able to accept or modifiable for large panel bits 3½" to 3¾"+. Mandatory for panel bits.
6.	Guide holes: These are used to mount a straight edge guide or for ski and foot use. These need to be a minimum of 12mm or ½". 
7.	Soft start: Is handy especially with the heavier horsepower (higher wattage) routers. Without it, a starting router could be wrenched out of your hands.
8.	Light weight but versatile and powerful. With power you want weight but you also want to pick it up and use it all day long. Sometimes table mounting is a viable solution.
9.	1¾" template guide hole: 1½" hole with a 1/8" shoulder for brass template guides. There is the Porter Cable 1 3/16ths standard but is too small for even occasional use. Makita allows for a 40mm template guide which would be the largest in the industry.

I have not had good luck using a pin nailer on MDF. I found it blew out the opposite side of the material from where I was trying to pin. Glue, double-sided tape, or screws would be your best bet. I was attaching a cleat to the 3/4" MDF sliding surface on my planer and used a pin nailer, not thinking. It blew a bump into the laminate on the other side. I now have a permanent reminder to stop and think first.

I can send you a copy of a book on how routers are organized. send me a PM with your e-mail address if you feel it would help.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Ron

I must disagree with most of your post 

40 mm guide I have been down that road many times on the forum, I gave up with trying to buy one and I had Harry make me one...plus they only fit the funky routers the norm..or to say the routers that are made over the pond.

Pin nailer, they sale the pin nails from 1/4" long to 1" long the norm and you can add a device to any air tool to stops the amt.of air that gets to the tool..

125 PSI Air Flow Regulator
160 PSI HVLP Air Regulator

The bigger guides, I don't know of one router that can take them on without some rework to the base plate..the PC guides do come with a 1" hole type that will take most router bits..the norm.

==========



allthunbs said:


> Hi Matt:
> 
> When you go to the store, get yourself a good particulate matter face mask with dust cannisters. Something like this one:
> 
> ...


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## jschaben (Jun 21, 2009)

Hi Matt - 
"_Dust collection is imperative. I use a cyclone lid like this one...

Veritas® Cyclone Lids - Lee Valley Tools

but there are lots of alternatives and some you can make at home_."

Before you spend $50 on a lid that doesn't work very well, spend $65 on one that does: 
Oneida Dust Deputy Cyclone System - Rockler Woodworking Tools
You don't need the whole thing, just the cyclone. It includes instructions on converting a standard 5 gal bucket. I had one of those other lids. Didn't do to badly seperating out medium sized logs and possibly small animals but almost nothing for the fine dust MDF creates.

"Given the size of your pieces, the production router will be the best bet."

Not necessarily, MDF is fairly easy to route. 1 3/4 to 2 HP is plenty.

_"1. ½" chuck: Smaller bit shafts can be fit using an adapter."_

Best if you can get a router with both chucks. Adapter is an additional coupling that can/does induce runout and is another part that can fail.

"2. 2 wrench collet: This is getting scarce but search for it. Sometimes it is hidden or it can be retrofitted. This is the alternative to the spindle lock which I consider dangerous."

Not necessarily. I have 6 routers, 5 have spindle locks. The only one I have ever had a bit loosen up on is the one with the 2 wrench system. Older lever type spindle locks were PIA's but the newer pin type work great.

_"3. Variable speed: (8,000 rpm to >24,000 rpm.) Nice but close to useless <3HP, but mandatory >3HP. Note that the slower speeds are mandatory for larger bits but you need the horsepower to push them."_

Variable speed is hardly useless on any size router. Speed recommendations start calling for speed reductions at a 1" diameter bit and even the smaller roundovers exceed that.

_"4. Plunge base: This is the most versatile, but a fixed base is fine for a third or fourth router"_

If you can score a combo kit that's the way to go. True the plunge base is more versatile but I find depth of cut is easier to set on the fixed base for most edging applications. You can't beat the plunge for inlay applications though.

_"5. Bit clearance: Able to accept or modifiable for large panel bits 3½" to 3¾"+. Mandatory for panel bits."_

Irrelevant unless you are planning on building kitchen cabinets or something requiring large bits. Totally inapplicable to hand held routing. 

_"6. Guide holes: These are used to mount a straight edge guide or for ski and foot use. These need to be a minimum of 12mm or ½". "_

Pretty much immaterial. Guide holes are designed to hold a guide, not a router. Most are 10 mm. There are alternative methods of supporting the router for skiis should you get to that point. Very likely a non-issue even with skiis until the router exceeds 10-11 lbs. Definetly should not be a show stopper for a decent router at a good price.

_"7. Soft start: Is handy especially with the heavier horsepower (higher wattage) routers. Without it, a starting router could be wrenched out of your hands."_

Soft start is a good thing.


_"8. Light weight but versatile and powerful. With power you want weight but you also want to pick it up and use it all day long. Sometimes table mounting is a viable solution."_

No issue here. Pretty much common sense.

_"9. 1¾" template guide hole: 1½" hole with a 1/8" shoulder for brass template guides. There is the Porter Cable 1 3/16ths standard but is too small for even occasional use. Makita allows for a 40mm template guide which would be the largest in the industry."_

Don't quite understand how an industry standard can be "to small for even occasional use". Problem with 1 3/4" guide hole bushings is there are only two suppliers and only one carries a large selection of bushing sizes. The majority of large bushing sizes also overlap with standard bushing sizes. I have a couple of the large bushings but the most used ones fall in the standard range. The large bushings do provide better visibility and some offsets that would only be achievable with offset rings. I would wager there are many accomplished woodworkers that are unaware of the larger size guides so I would hardly consider them a necessity.


_"I have not had good luck using a pin nailer on MDF. I found it blew out the opposite side of the material from where I was trying to pin. Glue, double-sided tape, or screws would be your best bet. I was attaching a cleat to the 3/4" MDF sliding surface on my planer and used a pin nailer, not thinking. It blew a bump into the laminate on the other side. I now have a permanent reminder to stop and think first."_

*23 gauge* pin nailer works just fine. I've fired several thousand pins and have yet to blow out even 1/4" MDF. If anything, I do have to watch the penetration depth of the pin if I want to remove it. It does bite in. 18 guage will likely blow it out though.


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## cuonebay (Apr 13, 2010)

Thanks for everyone's input, I really appreciate it. I have a question about these dust collection systems. If I am using a hand held router and going over my 4x8' sheet of MDF, how do I attached the hose etc. to my router to collect all the dust? I am not sure how that works. Sorry if this is a dumb questions. Thanks again.

Matt


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Hi Matt & John:



jschaben said:


> Before you spend $50 on a lid that doesn't work very well, spend $65 on one that does:
> ...Didn't do to badly seperating out medium sized logs and possibly small animals but almost nothing for the fine dust MDF creates.


I've been using the same dust bag in my vacuum for over a year now and it doesn't appear to be any where near full. I'm content with mine, but as I said, there are a broad range of alternatives on the market, and some Matt can make himself. There is a thread specifically for dust collection on this forum:

http://www.routerforums.com/shop-sa...collection-solutions-comments.html#post186623

There's more than adequate information there.



> "Given the size of your pieces, the production router will be the best bet."
> 
> Not necessarily, MDF is fairly easy to route. 1 3/4 to 2 HP is plenty.


I have a Makita 3601B, 930W. It works like a charm. I would not abuse it by pushing it through MDF all day long. For any production job, the extra horsepower of a 15 Amp motor makes the job go quicker, easier and with less fear of overheating. 

Matt: The 3601B at 930W is about 1.24HP (not including external influences or inefficiencies) and the 3612c is 15.0Amp and about 1800 watt or 2.4 HP but somehow this gets construed as 3.25 HP. Go figure -- I can't. My Hitachi M12Vs are rated at 15Amps but they call it a 3.25 HP router. A long time ago I learned that 750 watts was 1 HP. 



> Best if you can get a router with both chucks. Adapter is an additional coupling that can/does induce runout and is another part that can fail.


I have to agree with this. Many router manufacturers do not include collets for 1/4" shafts but include an adaptor. Extra attention must be paid with the adaptor.



> Not necessarily. I have 6 routers, 5 have spindle locks. The only one I have ever had a bit loosen up on is the one with the 2 wrench system. Older lever type spindle locks were PIA's but the newer pin type work great.


Ok, we've got a bunch of semantics on this one. If you use a permanently mounted router in a table, and you use a router lift, you have to use a spindle lock. For this purpose, the pin type shaft lock is best. I broke a craftsman router that had a lever type spindle lock and ended up throwing it out for lack of parts.

That said, I move my routers around too much to dedicate one to a table. I also have a table setup for two routers mounted at a time. Every time I change a bit with two wrenches it is quick, efficient and secure. Two hands and two wrenches and it's locked down tight. Never had a stuck bit yet.

_"3. Variable speed: (8,000 rpm to >24,000 rpm.) Nice but close to useless <3HP, but mandatory >3HP. Note that the slower speeds are mandatory for larger bits but you need the horsepower to push them."_



> Variable speed is hardly useless on any size router. Speed recommendations start calling for speed reductions at a 1" diameter bit and even the smaller roundovers exceed that.


Variable speed works by reducing the number of electrons that goes to a motor. It does it by reducing the volume in the stream or by chopping out chunks of electrons in the stream. However the speed control works, it translates into less energy going into the motor. If you're already working with a low amperage motor add a load and the motor starts to overheat because it doesn't have enough energy to push the load which, in turn, decreases its efficiency even further.

If you're into a hobby and you can allow your router to cool from time to time, the <3 horsepower routers are perfect. In this situation, Matt's talking about wanting to produce, efficiently and profitably, in which case, the Hitachi M12V or the Makita 3612C are two of the best bets.



> If you can score a combo kit that's the way to go. True the plunge base is more versatile but I find depth of cut is easier to set on the fixed base for most edging applications. You can't beat the plunge for inlay applications though.


Combo kits are nice. However, my 3601B is fixed base and is a real pain to setup. My two production ones are plunge and are a breeze. That said, it all depends on how you use a router. If you mount your router permanently in a table, you can use a gauge or some similar device to set your bit height. I prefer setup blocks. OakPark and LeeValley both sell suitable product and of late I've found setup blocks in machinist's catalogues.

Setup block and a plunge router is a nobrainer and no guesswork and you don't have to have perfect sight angle. The fixed base depends on the position of the moon relative to Uranus that you get the sight angle right every time. That said, if you really need precision use a piece of very hard wood or even aluminum to set your plunge base on before bottoming it out. This will give you a consistent starting point every time.



> _"5. Bit clearance: Able to accept or modifiable for large panel bits 3½" to 3¾"+. Mandatory for panel bits."_
> 
> Irrelevant unless you are planning on building kitchen cabinets or something requiring large bits. Totally inapplicable to hand held routing.


I do agree. If you're not setup for them, you certainly can't use them. Funny though. I had no sooner modified one of my M12Vs for panel bits then I ended up doing a piece of molding for a friend. It was 1 1/2" radius round over which, when cut out of the holding stock was a 1 1/2" quarter round. It fit the situation perfectly. 

Again, Matt is talking about artistry, not kitchens. To have the added versatility of large bits may open up additional sources of revenue that would have been denied him on smaller routers.



> _"6. Guide holes: These are used to mount a straight edge guide or for ski and foot use. These need to be a minimum of 12mm or ½". "_
> 
> Pretty much immaterial. Guide holes are designed to hold a guide, not a router. Most are 10 mm. There are alternative methods of supporting the router for skiis should you get to that point. Very likely a non-issue even with skiis until the router exceeds 10-11 lbs. Definetly should not be a show stopper for a decent router at a good price.


Again, we're dealing with the proposed use of a router. Matt needs versatility. Skis, shiis, foot, pendulum, sled (vertical, horizontal and angled,) and saddle are all methods that are going to provide increased versatility and perhaps increased product range for his situation. Guide holes, although not intended for ski use, are integral to that versatility. That said, no manufacturer knows anything about router usage. They know how to produce one but they don't necessarily know how to use one. Where do you find a router manufacturer providing a plunge angler for their routers? Have you ever seen a router manufacturer showing their router in a pendulum, or even a swing?



> _"9. 1¾" template guide hole: 1½" hole with a 1/8" shoulder for brass template guides. There is the Porter Cable 1 3/16ths standard but is too small for even occasional use. Makita allows for a 40mm template guide which would be the largest in the industry."_
> 
> Don't quite understand how an industry standard can be "to small for even occasional use". Problem with 1 3/4" guide hole bushings is there are only two suppliers and only one carries a large selection of bushing sizes. The majority of large bushing sizes also overlap with standard bushing sizes. I have a couple of the large bushings but the most used ones fall in the standard range. The large bushings do provide better visibility and some offsets that would only be achievable with offset rings. I would wager there are many accomplished woodworkers that are unaware of the larger size guides so I would hardly consider them a necessity.


There are two functions of a guide when using a template guide. It serves to guide the router through an operation when using it hand held or with a pair of skis. It also serves as a "window" that you can see where and how your router is cutting. Some people add lights, I add lights and a magnifying glass. One of the things when working with wood is the inconsistency of the cut as the bit cuts with then across the grain. If I see that I'm cutting cross-grain I'll rotate the router to the position where the bit is furthest from the finished cut, let it cut the pattern, then I'll return and redo the cut closer to or at the finished cut. Can't do this unless you can see what's happening. I can't get enough of a window with the 1 3/16" guides. The Porter-Cable "standard" is only standard for the manufacturers, not users. Again, manufacturer's don't necessarily know how to use their products. They fit what they think sells. How many manufacturers make pivot frames? One, Trend, and they're not a machine manufacturer, they're router users. 

_"I have not had good luck using a pin nailer on MDF. I found it blew out the opposite side of the material from where I was trying to pin. Glue, double-sided tape, or screws would be your best bet. I was attaching a cleat to the 3/4" MDF sliding surface on my planer and used a pin nailer, not thinking. It blew a bump into the laminate on the other side. I now have a permanent reminder to stop and think first."_



> *23 gauge* pin nailer works just fine. I've fired several thousand pins and have yet to blow out even 1/4" MDF. If anything, I do have to watch the penetration depth of the pin if I want to remove it. It does bite in. 18 guage will likely blow it out though.


At worst, my experience should be considered cautionary. Anyone reading this and not used to pin nailers and brad nailers and pneumatic staplers, test first. Some people are satisfied with the results and some people are not. For one, my experience is less successful than your's. An alternative to a pin nailer is a fine hole drilled and a 1d finishing nail glued and driven in.

John: thank you for your comments. It proves well for me to readdress my arguments from time to time and to question them. You have certainly made me question them, thank you.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Matt

Many of the good routers come with a vac. pickup tube (PC and Craftsman are just two of them) , you just plug in your vac.and get the dust b/4 it gets air born,you don't need a high end vac.system the norm for the week end shop worker.

Many go over the deep end with the vac.systems, it's just the norm when you cut wood you will have dust/chips all over the shop, that said I do suggest a simple dust mask when you work with MDF, it was once saw dust when they made it and it will become a pile of dust again when you rework it unlike real wood..

=========



cuonebay said:


> Thanks for everyone's input, I really appreciate it. I have a question about these dust collection systems. If I am using a hand held router and going over my 4x8' sheet of MDF, how do I attached the hose etc. to my router to collect all the dust? I am not sure how that works. Sorry if this is a dumb questions. Thanks again.
> 
> Matt


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

bobj3 said:


> ... Many go over the deep end with the vac.systems,


I have to agree with Bob3J, much ado is made of naught. In yesteryear, when men produced with hand planes and a man with a hand saw produced enough dust to make a small pile on the floor and almost nothing in the air, dust was an afterthought attributed to the burning of coal. 

Today, a router can produce more dust in five minutes than a man with a hand saw can produce in five days, most of it airborne, most of it irritating, and some if it toxic.

As it applies to MDF, the resin binder of Medium Density Fibreboard is Urea formaldehyde. It is mixed with wax and wood fibres and formed into panels using heat and pressure. When cut or sanded the particles are a known irritant, potentially a pollutant and potentially a toxin.

The Penrod Company states the following in their MSDS for Urea Formaldehyde.

Hazardous Decomposition Products:
Thermal and/or thermal oxidative decomposition can produce irritating and toxic fumes and gases, including carbon monoxide, hydrogen cyanide, aldehydes, organic acids and polynuclear aromatic compounds.

Consider that a saw blade or router bit heats up material during cutting to such extent that these, and other by-products can be easily created. 

Such warning cannot be trivialized. A viable dust collection is a must. However, not to seem extremist or alarmist, the human body can tolerate a small amount of such carcinogens with impunity. Extended and repeated exposure does become a health hazard, the greater the exposure, the more serious. I must note that many softwoods have toxic substances, i.e. cedars and firs.

Mr. Jenkins is right, a hobbyist need only a small dust mask for occasional use. Matt, on the other hand is a craftsman with products that he is selling in the marketplace. That means that he has to produce if he has protection or not. I would suggest prudence, safe practice and protection at the outset.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi

It's Bobj3 by the way 

========



allthunbs said:


> I have to agree with Bob3J, much ado is made of naught. In yesteryear, when men produced with hand planes and a man with a hand saw produced enough dust to make a small pile on the floor and almost nothing in the air, dust was an afterthought attributed to the burning of coal.
> 
> Today, a router can produce more dust in five minutes than a man with a hand saw can produce in five days, most of it airborne, most of it irritating, and some if it toxic.
> 
> ...


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## istracpsboss (Sep 14, 2008)

+1 on a mask for MDF. The stuff that binds it together is carcinogenic, to the extent that some countries like, IIRC Norway, actually ban it. I confess that I don't always, if I am working outside, but it is a must for inside.

Cheers

Peter


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Tom

Whilst I'm in agreement with a lot of your pointers I'm really surprised that you consider spindle locks dangerous. Personally I've never had a problem with them in more than 20 years of regular use in trade. My own feeling is that they are easier to use than two wrenches. 

My own experience with routers makes me favour variable speed on 1/2in routers (normally 2 HP and above) where larger diameter cutters really does need the facility whilst I've never found much need on 1/4in or 8mm routers because mine are only ever going to get smaller bits used in them. Larger diameter cutters certainly need a larger diameter opening, but it's probably only of use on routers used inverted in a table (where weight is immaterial)

Asking for a 1/2in or 12mm fence rod automatically rules out any of the "industrial" deWalt, Bosch, Fein, Felisatti or Festool 1/2in plunge routers which actually have much better fences (with micro adjusters) than any of the heavweight Japanese (Makita, Ryobi, Hitachi) or Italian (Freud) routers. I've found no problem with the 10mm rods supplied with big Elus and deWalts since the 1980s. And on the subject of larger buide bushes, Trend do a 40mm guide bush for their 1/2in routers (and the deWalts/Elus as well), but for most purposes a 30mm will normally suffice. But then I rarely use cutters over 25mm (1in) in diameter freehand

To attach templates to workpieces I often use simple double-dided tape or hot melt glue for more awkward pieces


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Hi Phil:



Phil P said:


> Tom
> 
> Whilst I'm in agreement with a lot of your pointers I'm really surprised that you consider spindle locks dangerous. Personally I've never had a problem with them in more than 20 years of regular use in trade. My own feeling is that they are easier to use than two wrenches.


That's me that doesn't like spindle locks. I have them on my M12Vs. I have several beefs. My old Craftsman had a lever style spindle lock and that's the part that broke, forcing me to scrap an otherwise perfectly good router. Parts not available.

I do not use router lifts, I use the OakPark system and find spindle locks awkward. I'm tightening the collet and I'm holding the base, which puts a lot of stress on the base and the plunge columns. The two wrench system puts the torque where it is needed, on the collet. I also find that I cannot exert as much pressure on the collet as I can when two wrenches are directly opposed.

I also find that I cannot easily gauge the torque that I've applied to the collet when using the spindle locks. With two wrenches, two hands, good pressure and I've got the bit thoroughly snugged in. 



> My own experience with routers makes me favour variable speed on 1/2in routers (normally 2 HP and above) where larger diameter cutters really does need the facility whilst I've never found much need on 1/4in or 8mm routers because mine are only ever going to get smaller bits used in them. Larger diameter cutters certainly need a larger diameter opening, but it's probably only of use on routers used inverted in a table (where weight is immaterial)


Noted Thank you.



> Asking for a 1/2in or 12mm fence rod automatically rules out any of the "industrial" deWalt, Bosch, Fein, Felisatti or Festool 1/2in plunge routers which actually have much better fences (with micro adjusters) than any of the heavweight Japanese (Makita, Ryobi, Hitachi) or Italian (Freud) routers. I've found no problem with the 10mm rods supplied with big Elus and deWalts since the 1980s. And on the subject of larger buide bushes, Trend do a 40mm guide bush for their 1/2in routers (and the deWalts/Elus as well), but for most purposes a 30mm will normally suffice. But then I rarely use cutters over 25mm (1in) in diameter freehand


You have to remember, there are 25 different mounting methods for routers. There are few routers that will work in all methods. My four will cover most of the situations but I'm looking for a 1/2", fixed base, preferably an old Makita, to flesh out my inventory. The switch must be mounted on the body, not the handle.

The 1/2" rods I use for pivot frame, skis and foot.

I have no problems with the adjustability of my edge guides. They're using threaded adjusting and sufficiently accurate for my purposes. I never rely on the adjustments anyway. I setup a mark on the workpiece and set to that mark. I only use the straight edge on the M12Vs. I don't have one for the 3601B.

The guide bushing size itself is not important. What is important is that the router not need to be modified to accept large bushings. i.e. Makita's routers (3601b, 3612) will allow the 1 1/2" and 40mm guides without modification. My M12V required surgery to use >3" bits. That's the kind of modification I'm talking about.



> To attach templates to workpieces I often use simple double-dided tape or hot melt glue for more awkward pieces


I never had much luck with either. They're either too stuck and you can't get the part off without destroying it or the extreme opposite and you can't get it to stick well enough to work on the part. I'll stick with the old standby, brass screws.

Thanks for the comments Phil. I look forward to your reply.


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Hi Ron

Like you I don't use a router lift, my solution is a pad of plywood and a scissor jack. Crude, cheap but very efficient. My mainstay routers over the past 15 or so years have been Elu/deWalt 1/2in routers (now called DW625) which have a sprung locking "button". I've also had several 1/2in Bosches (GOF1700E and ACE models in the EU) which had a similar system. All have worked fine for me and I've found that I prefer them over the two wrench solution required on my earlier Elu MOF31s and MOF98. I do know one guy who ripped away part of the base casting when he accidentally switched on the machine whilst holding the arbor lock on (on a DW625). Fortunately he survived unscathed and the router thereafter required two spanners.....

On the switch front I prefer to have my switch off the router. That means I prefer a router which doesn't require the switch to be held on all the time and where I can control the power through an external switch. That rules out certain Ryobis and AEGs as they don't switch on and lock. I run my router via an AEG direct on-line (DoL or NoVR) switch (a magnetic switch in US parlance?) so that in the event of a power failure the thing doesn't start again as soon as the power goes back on. Makes it much more like using a static shaper.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Hi Phil:



> Like you I don't use a router lift, my solution is a pad of plywood and a scissor jack. Crude, cheap but very efficient.


I got a chuckle when I read this. Yup, if it works for you and it's safe, why not?



> My mainstay routers over the past 15 or so years have been Elu/deWalt 1/2in routers (now called DW625) which have a sprung locking "button". I've also had several 1/2in Bosches (GOF1700E and ACE models in the EU) which had a similar system. All have worked fine for me and I've found that I prefer them over the two wrench solution required on my earlier Elu MOF31s and MOF98.


Yup, +1 vote for spindle locks. I guess I should start to keep track ;-)



> I do know one guy who ripped away part of the base casting when he accidentally switched on the machine whilst holding the arbor lock on (on a DW625). Fortunately he survived unscathed and the router thereafter required two spanners.....


So, I just jumped the gun and skipped a step. Good, less hassle that way.



> On the switch front I prefer to have my switch off the router.


Ok, now this is an interesting comment. However, I think a bit of clarity here is in order. I meant that I wanted the switch actually on the body of the router so it is switched on or off and not mounted in the handle requiring it to be held. My 3601B the switch is in the handle so I can't take the motor out of the base and use it in other mounting methods without destroying the switch.



> That means I prefer a router which doesn't require the switch to be held on all the time and where I can control the power through an external switch.


A real pain in the ... hand. Cramps anyone?



> That rules out certain Ryobis and AEGs as they don't switch on and lock.


Warning, vendors do not like it when you go down their display of routers saying "nope, nope, nope, nope..." and when you get to the end you ask if they have any more, not on display. By that time they're usually furious. 



> I run my router via an AEG direct on-line (DoL or NoVR) switch (a magnetic switch in US parlance?) so that in the event of a power failure the thing doesn't start again as soon as the power goes back on. Makes it much more like using a static shaper.


I've never felt I had to worry about something like that. Handy to know though. I'll file that one for future use. 

Thanks.


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