# Help Mike



## KenBee (Jan 1, 2011)

I just received the Musclechuck you suggested and That thing is an accident waiting to happen. I worked for over an hour trying to get it vibration free to no avail. I thought I had it but when I tried it the wood I used was kicked out of my hand. I am going to return it and use the money toward a router lift and hopefully that will put an end to my problems with spiral bits and my router table.

Thanks for the suggestion anyhow even though it didn't work out.


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## BrianS (Nov 7, 2004)

Ken, call John DeRosa and talk to him. His number is on the Musclechuck page under the "Contact" tab. He stands behind his products and he will make it right for you.


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

OH no, I wonder what went wrong? I have 2 of them set up on both my router tables and they work beautifully. One on a PC 7518 and the other on a Bocsh 1617.

The machining on mine is impeccable, and when I put a bit in it pops back up ,the tolerances are so close. That is terrible news.

Herb


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Ken, which router did you order the Musclechuck for? The reason I ask is mistakes can happen. Double check the package to be sure it is the same number you ordered. Call John about this before you give up hope. I put Musclechucks on most of my routers and they have all worked fine; only one needed adjustment. You are also welcome to PM me your phone number; I will be happy to troubleshoot this with you.

I wish this had happened a month ago before I flew home from San Jose!


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Ken Bee said:


> I just received the Musclechuck you suggested and That thing is an accident waiting to happen. I worked for over an hour trying to get it vibration free to no avail. I thought I had it but when I tried it the wood I used was kicked out of my hand. I am going to return it and use the money toward a router lift and hopefully that will put an end to my problems with spiral bits and my router table.
> 
> Thanks for the suggestion anyhow even though it didn't work out.


I'm not sure but I thought I read a review where a few people did have vibration issues with them . It does concern me when something's spinning at 25,000 rpm :fie:

More people have had success though so it makes one wonder if you got a lemon? 
I read there install instructions and there was a way to turn it and lock it down if it was out of balance . Found it strange that that was necessary though


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Rick, the balancing is required because of the low standards in machining the routers shaft, not the Musclechuck.

The same vibration will most likely occur using a large bit like a panel raising bit with the factory collet and nut.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Mike said:


> Rick, the balancing is required because of the low standards in machining the routers shaft, not the Musclechuck.
> 
> The same vibration will most likely occur using a large bit like a panel raising bit with the factory collet and nut.


Gotcha


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## KenBee (Jan 1, 2011)

Actually even before I installed it I read the instructions and was leery of the chuck based on the set up instructions. It requires to much of a hit and miss requirement to suit me. I have the MLCS extensions in both the 1/4 and 1/2 inch version and they both run true so until I get a lift I will rely on them when needed.

BTW, excuse the typo in my thread heading.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

What was the typo supposed to be Ken?


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> What was the typo supposed to be Ken?


"Help" maybe lol

Too funny as I didn't realize that was a typo and hought Ken was a little distraught


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## Ghidrah (Oct 21, 2008)

At the risk of appearing the killjoy, I'd be leery of possible damage to me and the router with vibration, excessive is relative! I've started all my handheld routers without bits enough times to be familiar with the usual -0- load vibration, likewise with installed bits straight, profiled, large and narrow under -0- load. 

Maybe testing the router with couple large profiled bits without the muscle chuck could eliminate possible shaft error and maybe implicate an imbalance with a particular bit if excess vibration is detected. I know my Benchdog lift isn't a top of the line powered digital lift. I'm able to change bits above the table and it takes no time to change out bits and or switching collets the old way. 

So, truthfully what's the lure of the musclechuck, certainly the sales PR rhetoric I've read on a number of sites, (banging knuckles an inability to find wrenches and make above table changes) is a laugh.


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Ron, changing bits is super quick and easy. This may not be an issue for people who only use their routers on occasion but when you are trying to photo shoot a project in one day it really makes a huge difference. The additional length helps on a lot of projects. Don't take my word on this, ask Harry or Roland Johnson or any of the thousands of satisfied customers.


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## JFPNCM (Dec 13, 2009)

BrianS said:


> Ken, call John DeRosa and talk to him. His number is on the Musclechuck page under the "Contact" tab. He stands behind his products and he will make it right for you.


By all means contact John either by phone or email on this and keep us posted. I have 2 of his chucks and have nothing but good things to say about them and John's support.


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## Ghidrah (Oct 21, 2008)

Mike,

Granted many of the members here probably have more than 1 RT and probably use them more often than I do, however, rarely does a project of mine requiring RT use end with 1 process. My current project looks like their will be 5 different RT runs with and without templates. Many of my projects over the last couple yrs have me using the handhelds more due to router inlay work.

Whenever I have profiles on material over 2 1/2" high I either flip the piece or cut the profile, rip it and then attach it to the primary, to date it works pretty well.

I might consider one if I was operating a production shop but I'm not, odds are if I were I'd be running a shaper for many of the processes instead of an RT.


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Ron, I checked out the Musclechuck so I could answer questions for a forum member. I was impressed enough that I called John DeRosa and suggested that he expand his product line to cover most of the routers forum members use. This has worked out great for the many forum members who use them now. I suggested the 5% discount for forum members and John set this up. John has been top notch on service to everyone. I think this has been a win/win situation for everyone.

The Musclechuck is not for everyone any more than one brand of router or table is. Or method of routing for that matter. Everyone should work with what they are most comfortable with.


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## Ghidrah (Oct 21, 2008)

Mike,
Agreed, one works with what one is comfortable with.

That was one helluva trick you pulled off with Mr. Derosa, I'd recommend both of you for a " Der Mensch Award" if there was one, "All the good on you!"


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## KenBee (Jan 1, 2011)

I worked on aircraft for over 25 years with the last 5 years as a tool, die and jig inspector on the Space Shuttle so I am no stranger to precision measurements. I still have a few thousand dollars worth of instruments and inspection tools so I did check the shaft runout on my router with a dial indicator and a 2 inch stainless steel rod especially for checking runout and it is on the money. I just can't get the vibration out of the musclechuck no matter how I try. Granted it may be my shortcoming but that doesn't alter the fact the vibration is something to be reckoned with and treat it accordingly. The way some people talk about this thing it would seem it is the greatest invention in the world. If it was all that great it should just screw on the router shaft with no adjustment necessary. Like I said, once I read the instructions I wasn't sure I even wanted to install the chuck. No matter the reason it isn't my idea of a workable add on for my router so I am still going to return it and buy a router lift next month.


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## Ghidrah (Oct 21, 2008)

Maybe it isn't a question of the item being out of round but a weight imbalance in the material used in [your] tool. That would produce -0- run out while hand turning, but an "Oh sh!t" moment at 100-10000 rpms. I'd go for a replacement to see if the issue remains.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Looking at Ken's resume' I'm guessing he's eliminated everything _other_ than the 3rd party collet.
My neighbour is a retired machinist. When I ran the Muscle Chuck link past him, he brought up some very similar criticisms, based on his years of doing precision production. Definitely put my Spidey senses to tingling...
If it works for you, great!!


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## KenBee (Jan 1, 2011)

Ghidrah said:


> Maybe it isn't a question of the item being out of round but a weight imbalance in the material used in [your] tool. That would produce -0- run out while hand turning, but an "Oh sh!t" moment at 100-10000 rpms. I'd go for a replacement to see if the issue remains.


I didn't check the run out by hand turning the router shaft if that is what you are suggesting. I'm not quite that stupid yet. I ran it from 10,000 t0 25,000 RPM by slowly increasing the speed with the speed controller. The run out was negligible at all speeds and not enough to create a vibration like the Musclechuck does. I still contend if the Musclechuck is such a fantastic tool the requirement for adjusting it shouldn't be required. If the tolerances are as close as stated it should, as I said, be a simple attachment to the router, insert a bit and cut away. I find it very interesting that the first thing people defending the chuck is that it is the router itself causing the vibration. Common sense dictates if that is the case there should and would be vibration without the Musclechuck and running the standard router bit setup. 

For those of you defending it that is your prerogative but I will not declare it a safe attachment for mine or any other router based on my experience and findings. You are also more than welcome to question my opinions though.


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Ken, John also builds components for the US Air Force; to date he is the only supplier to get the parts right.

Here are some of my routers with Musclechucks on them. All are problem free.


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

For those of you defending it that is your prerogative but I will not declare it a safe attachment for mine or any other router based on my experience and findings. You are also more than welcome to question my opinions though.[/QUOTE]

I am not defending the Musclechuck, only stating my experiences with the two I have set up in my router tables. 

I have not had the experience you had, no vibration at all on either one. I have run several hundred feet of maple trim thru them and no vibration detected from the bit. I have not used very large rail and stile bits on them yet, but the use I have put them through I have not seen of felt anything improper.
I do not discredit your credentials, or learned opinion, only that I think it is not fair to judge them all by your representative sample of one. My suggestion would be to contact the manufacturer and let him know your assessment of the problem from your professional standpoint.

Herb


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## Ghidrah (Oct 21, 2008)

Ken,
Sorry for the confusion, I could have been more specific, it's what I get for assuming I will be understood. 


> I still have a few thousand dollars worth of instruments and inspection tools so I did check the shaft runout on my router with a dial indicator and a 2 inch stainless steel rod especially for checking runout and it is on the money.


I operated on the assumption due to your previous statement; (quoted above @11:43 6/22/15) the router shaft was fine and wasn't suggesting that you were stupid. I was referring to run out "not" occurring with the muscle chuck in place on the router while hand turning, tool being your muscle chuck, weight imbalance being in the muscle chuck materials, not your 2" rod, dial indicator or router armature. 


> Maybe it isn't a question of the item being out of round but a weight imbalance in the material used in [your] tool


My fault for assuming you would distinguish between router and muscle chuck.

So you tested for run out with a 2" rod you know to be accurate and the results were nominal. How did you immobilize the router body and mount the dial indicator to validate a 10k - 25k rpm test? A ballsy feat.

Sorry for the confusion.


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## jd99 (Jun 17, 2009)

Interesting thread,

I saw some on here praising the musclechuck a while ago and I looked at it and the instructions, and my first thoughts were "there is going to be vibrations in it" so I never bought into it.

I'm a retired tool and die/mold maker, and I worked on aerospace products, military armament, diecast and injection molds. I have a little bit of experience in precision manufacturing. (40 plus years)

My take on this product and the instructions is that while there was an attempt to balance it, (it looks like there is a balance hole drilled into it from the pictures) I doubt it is precision balanced, the cost would be more.

the instructions say to mount it and if there is vibrations turn it a few degrees and try again, this process is trying to match the heavy side of the musclechuck with the light side of the router spindle, this process might work if there is some out of balance in the router spindle to begin with. But if the router spindle has a near perfect balance your not going to get the out of balance or vibration of the musclechuck to cancel out.

This is just my take on this product, if you bought one and it works great on your router then great congratulations. But if someone buys one and it doesn't work; then it doesn't work on their application, but to say or imply that's impossible is a bit much. 

routers and (I assume) musclechucks are production manufactured not every product off the line is exactly the same as the next, that's why the engineers put tolerances in their designs.

Disclaimer 
Just my thoughts on this yours may be different.
Thanks
Danny


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Danny thanks for your perspective on it . Sounds like you had an interesting career


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## JFPNCM (Dec 13, 2009)

I respect all the opinions expressed on this thread. The sad part, no one, at least as near as I can tell, has referred this matter to the manufacturer and offered John a chance to comment. An opportunity missed?


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Jon, I spoke with John DeRosa last night and got a crash course in engineering. John read this entire thread and will write a response to it. I am just going to toss out some information that I considered important for you to consider.

Out of the 3,000 Musclechucks John has produced in the 2-1/2 years he has been making them there have been 20 users with problems. Half of these were caused by the old reducer bushings; John has a new source for them now. Ten have been attributed to poor machining of the router shaft or worn out bearings in the routers. John issued prompt refunds for all these Musclechucks and tested them; they all proved to be on the money.

John engineered the balancing of the Musclechuck and had it verified by a firm specializing in balancing. That simple looking hole for balancing is a high precision item. The holes differ between models of the Musclechuck due to different cone angles, nut/thread combinations, etc..

The Musclechuck adds a lot of mass to the end of the routers shaft; this is much like using a heavier flywheel on a car engine. It tends to smooth out minor variances. If a bearing is not running true the added mass amplifies vibration. This can be caused by a bearing that is worn out or even a new bearing that is improperly seated. Using a straight bit in a factory collet and nut might run fine with these conditions; the collet shifts in the shaft to compensate. This is why what feels like a properly tightened bit can come loose. The Musclechuck seats firmly in the shaft with no compensation. This is why bearing problems show up easier.

It is easy to test the bearing for an indication of a problem; clamp your router in a vise and seat the Musclechuck in the shaft without tightening the nut. Try to wiggle it back and forth and then side to side. Any movement indicates a problem. You can compensate a little using the adjustment instruction provided with the Musclechuck; you may get lucky and find a sweet spot that will work.


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## KenBee (Jan 1, 2011)

I didn't realize this thread would open up a can of worms as large as it has. Even though the chuck has generated both negative and positive comments I still feel it is an unsafe attachment for a router. I still contend if it has been machined to the tolerances as stated it should be a simple screw on to the router shaft with no adjustments necessary. The standard chuck and bit combination doesn't create a vibration on MY router so why should the Musclechuck? That is even when I use a 2 inch drawer lock bit. Actually I don't use the drawer lock bit in my router table but I wanted to see if a bit that large created a runout with the table router, it didn't. I only use that bi for my large Woodhaven planing jig. I haven't returned the Musclechuck yet and am having second thoughts about doing so. I will try it on one or two of my other routers and see if that makes a difference. Even if it does work it will still be worthless because I really don't need it on any of my other routers because each of my routers are setup for a specific function. Just because it is a quick change for router bits doesn't justify the expense and trouble it creates to set it up. If I can't get it to work in my router table router like I need it is not a viable addition to my tool inventory. I like my router table setup as it is except for the fact it has a problem with using short bits and shallow cuts, but will solve that problem in August with the addition of a router lift. 

This is my last reply or comment in reference to the Musclechuck because I feel the thread has been overworked and is now like beating a dead horse.


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## Stargate (Oct 2, 2014)

Mike,
I'm planning on purchasing a Musclechuck for my Bosch 1617EVS that goes in my Incra Mast-R-Lift II router lift.
Something that might be unsafe for one person doesn't necessarily make it unsafe for everyone.
A Nascar driver feels safe driving 200 mph on the track, but that doesn't mean he can go ahead and drive like that on the freeways. LOL


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## Ghidrah (Oct 21, 2008)

Larry, they don't feel safe, they feel adrenalin, lots of it.


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## JFPNCM (Dec 13, 2009)

@Ken Bee

Yes, it is a bit like beating a dead horse but once again I raise the question which Herb responded to, we need the input from the manufacturer. If Cricket is to be successful in building a "vendor" section of this site then we need to be open to inviting them into these discussions.


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Ron, I am very happy with my Musclechucks and so is Harry. Roland Johnson of FWW magazine is very pleased with the multiple Musclechucks he owns; this is why he made the unsolicited video. Rockler and Woodline keep increasing their orders. Many forum members are happy with their Musclechucks.


Everyone is entitled to their opinion.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Ken Bee said:


> I just received the Musclechuck you suggested and That thing is an accident waiting to happen. I worked for over an hour trying to get it vibration free to no avail. I thought I had it but when I tried it the wood I used was kicked out of my hand. I am going to return it and use the money toward a router lift and hopefully that will put an end to my problems with spiral bits and my router table.
> 
> Thanks for the suggestion anyhow even though it didn't work out.


My first reaction to this thread was "wow, this guy is wide open to being sued. Such a definitive statement would have to be proved in a court of law. I have never heard of an accident when the Musclechuck is being used. I have been using routers since 1974 and not just for edge forming, but with template guides and templates. since becoming a member of this forum I have produced a large number of fully illustrated projects, some available as Stickies, ie: tutorials but a huge number in my uploads.
The reason for stating the above is to illustrate that I'm pretty experienced at routing. Some time ago I became aware of the MUSCLECHUCK and ordered one for my Makita 3612C, an extremely good router. After reading glowing reviews from many professionals as well as amateurs I ordered one and was so impressed with it that I stated on this and other forums that I considered it a major breakthrough in routing technology. I decided that I had to have MUSCLECHUCKS on my two other 1/2" routers, an early production Triton TRA001 and the latest Makita RP2301FC but alas, these had not been produced so I asked, several times, Mike to put pressure on the makers which resulted in MUSCLECHUCKS eventually being produced. None of the three required any adjustment One thing that I noticed immediately was the lack of slop when screwing on the chucks compared to the original collet chuck. 
Mr.Bee, how about a few photos of the test set-up that you used, also how much run-out with original and MUSCLECHUCK in thousandths of an inch, a system understood by us all.


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## Stargate (Oct 2, 2014)

Ghidrah said:


> Larry, they don't feel safe, they feel adrenalin, lots of it.


Ronald
Two parachuters jump out of a plane at the same time. One parachuter says to the other guy this feels dangerous. The other parachuter replies - you have noting to fear unless your parachute doesn't open. Now enjoy the adrenalin rush' LOL


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## Ghidrah (Oct 21, 2008)

I remember that music too Stargate Larry, I was one of 2 duty divers aboard the WYTM-61 CGC Kaw, part of our job was SAR, the ship had to be recertified and took part in SAR/Heli exercises in Lake Erie in 75, dropping from a hovering chopper and or riding a basket up ... "OH BOY". I also used to ride street and dirt bike, riding a whoops is also a rush. Marriage, family, physical damage and old age wrung all the mental case out of me.


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## KenBee (Jan 1, 2011)

Hey Harry, there is no such thing as an accident. It is more commonly known as "pre-meditated carelessness". Problem is I have them on a daily basis it seems. I also didn't say the Musclechuck caused an accident only that it could if not set up properly which applies to all woodworking tools if not used as intended and with care. 

I am now on a campaign to have Mr. DeRosa to manufacture a Musclechuck for Trim Routers. I use my Ridgid and DeWalt Trim Routers more than any router in my shop and the convenience of the Musclechuck bit change for Trim Routers would be a welcome addition to mine or anybodies tool inventory I would think. I don't use a full size router hand held often enough to warrant buying a Musclechuck for that use so the only place I do utilize the Musclechuck is on my router table and it did solve the problem I originally purchased it for.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

"I just received the Musclechuck you suggested and That thing is an accident waiting to happen. I worked for over an hour trying to get it vibration free to no avail. I thought I had it but when I tried it the wood I used was kicked out of my hand. I am going to return it and use the money toward a router lift and hopefully that will put an end to my problems with spiral bits and my router table.

Thanks for the suggestion anyhow even though it didn't work out."

Your today's post could have been written by a different person Ken. My impression was that you wouldn't touch another product made by DeRosa Engineering! 
Please believe me when I say that I'm attempting to help you, hence the request for photos of the test set-up that you used, I'm also curious to know why the tests were conducted at high speed, whilst not being an engineer, my logic tells me, that with the router firmly bolted to a solid structure and a dial indicator held in a magnetic chuck the precision rod can be rotated in whatever increments one wishes and a graph drawn which will clearly shows the difference between the high and low spots.
This in fact is how I carried out such tests some time ago and posted the series of photos which I can't find at the moment. My Triton TRA001 was/is firmly bolted under my cast iron router table on which I had the magnetic base with a Mercer dial indicator. In the MUSCLECHUCK was a 4" x 1/2" precision bar.


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## KenBee (Jan 1, 2011)

And therein lies our problem Harry. We took the time to think and that is always a sure road to disaster. I thought the Musclechuck was at fault when in fact it was me "thinking" it was faulty because it was so difficult to get the vibration and runout within tolerances. I really don't need any help either because I am very capable of screwing things up on my own, but thanks anyhow.


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## GregLittleWoodworks (Dec 9, 2014)

If Musclechuck decided to come out with a 1/4" version I will quickly purchase two of them for my Dewalt hand held routers. I have been so spoiled by the three Muscle chucks I have on my 1/2" routers


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## Stargate (Oct 2, 2014)

Mike said:


> Ron, I am very happy with my Musclechucks and so is Harry. Roland Johnson of FWW magazine is very pleased with the multiple Musclechucks he owns; this is why he made the unsolicited video. Rockler and Woodline keep increasing their orders. Many forum members are happy with their Musclechucks.
> 
> 
> Everyone is entitled to their opinion.


Mike, I agree with you about* Everyone is entitled to their opinion.* I appreciate peoples opinions if they actually have something substantial to back that opinion up with. Problem is, most opinions have more fluff in them than a bag of marshmallows. The old expression opinions are a dime a dozen is quite accurate.

Larry


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Ken Bee said:


> Hey Harry, there is no such thing as an accident. It is more commonly known as "pre-meditated carelessness". Problem is I have them on a daily basis it seems. I also didn't say the Musclechuck caused an accident only that it could if not set up properly which applies to all woodworking tools if not used as intended and with care.
> 
> I am now on a campaign to have Mr. DeRosa to manufacture a Musclechuck for Trim Routers. I use my Ridgid and DeWalt Trim Routers more than any router in my shop and the convenience of the Musclechuck bit change for Trim Routers would be a welcome addition to mine or anybodies tool inventory I would think. I don't use a full size router hand held often enough to warrant buying a Musclechuck for that use so the only place I do utilize the Musclechuck is on my router table and it did solve the problem I originally purchased it for.


"
'Hey Harry, there is no such thing as an accident. It is more commonly known as "pre-meditated carelessness"

Or as I was taught, "accidents don't happen, they are caused"


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## bcfunburst (Jan 14, 2012)

Some time back I also purchased a MUSCLECHUCK for my early production Triton TRA001. I too had to spend quite a bit of time sorting out the vibration issue with this new chuck. I eventually got it down to a tolerable level and I am now quite happy with this MUSCLECHUCK. There is NO issue with bits coming loose, EVER!! My Triton TRA001 is mounted in a VERITAS table . This MUSCLECHUCK makes it even easier to change cutters above the table. My opinion: Well worth the money, and the effort.


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