# Location of insert on table - Reasons



## gregmw (Oct 30, 2009)

Hi,

I am still designing my table and was wondering if I should mount the insert in the centre of the top (900mm x 600mm) About 3 foot x 2 foot I think) 
or off set it to one end or side.

I read some where that it is better to favour the right side of the top but I dont know why.

I will be using it for everything but mainly Template routing (Guitar bodies),Finger joints and edge routing 

Thanks for your input.

Regards

Greg


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## davcefai (Aug 3, 2009)

One thing to bear in mind is that there are pitfalls for any arrangement. I encountered one yesterday.

My insert is centred. I was trying to rout a 6mm recess in a 40 cm strip of wood leaving 1 cm unrouted at each end. Having failed to think things through properly, when the end of the strip reached the edge of the fence the work moved in towards the bit. Then when I wanted to start the next pass the right-hand end of the work would not register properly against the fence as the unrouted bit was off the fence.

My point is that you want to think about the jobs you want to do and position the insert accordingly.


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## Cassandra (Mar 15, 2006)

Hi Greg:

In the table I am currently building:

Top dimensions: 24 x 48 inches, 1-1/2 inches thick

Placement of router axis: 8 inches from the front edge (long edge), centered between the two ends. 

Benefits: 
1) Most work doesn't need great depth between the bit and the front edge. Eight inches is adequate.
2) 24 inches of infeed and outfeed support.
3) For most work, the rest of the table is available for holding workpieces.
4) When need arises for more than eight inches, working from the back edge gives one 16 inches of workspace. Still 24 inches of infeed and outfeed support.
5) For those rarer incidents, working across one endg gives one 24 inches in front of the bit. Problem is that infeed and outfeed support is now only 12 inches.
6) I might add an Incra LS positioner system on the table at a later date.

Cassandra


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## RStaron (Sep 25, 2009)

Cassandra, I like you theory's or Ideas on plate placement. I was wondering the same as Greg about placement. I will keep this in mind when I build my next router table, same goes for the overall size.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Ron:

If you're into making base plates yourself, there is a technique that may be interesting for you.

There is what is called an "incremental base plate (IBP)." You can offset your baseplate location and use the IBP to centre, or offset your router bit.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Hi Cassandra:



Cassandra said:


> In the table I am currently building:
> 
> Top dimensions: 24 x 48 inches, 1-1/2 inches thick
> 
> Placement of router axis: 8 inches from the front edge (long edge), centered between the two ends.


Depending on the method of support you're using with your top, you may not be able to clear all of the protrusions on the router. By moving the router to the edge, your fence has to be mounted on the entire length of the table. This is a large and difficult to maintain fence. I have a 48" table with a 54" fence made of 8/4" x 12/4" solid maple stock and I'm constantly checking to be sure it is "true." It is also a genuine pain in the back and neck to work with that size table continuously. I still have the centered baseplate 2'x4' top but I use a 2'x4' top with two baseplates centred in each end.



Cassandra said:


> Benefits:
> 1) Most work doesn't need great depth between the bit and the front edge. Eight inches is adequate.


Interesting observation. Agreed, in most of what I've worked on, I've seldom used the bit removed from the fence. When I've used the bit remotely from the fence, I've switched to jigs or other methods (skis, shiis, )



Cassandra said:


> 2) 24 inches of infeed and outfeed support.


Agreed 24" infeed and outfeed support, except when you position the fence diagonally, then, you suddenly find that that support has disappeared. After awhile I found that I would automatically mount a short fence diagonally. Only then would I remember to replace it with the larger fence. All other forms of fences become expensive and cumbersome as well; i.e. tall fence etc.



Cassandra said:


> 3) For most work, the rest of the table is available for holding workpieces.


I found that it gave lots of space to pile up bits and pieces, until I built the two hole top and then, all kinds of things started to happen. I would do two setups at a time and suddenly my error rate went down.



Cassandra said:


> 4) When need arises for more than eight inches, working from the back edge gives one 16 inches of workspace. Still 24 inches of infeed and outfeed support.


Really hard on the back and neck.



Cassandra said:


> 5) For those rarer incidents, working across one endg gives one 24 inches in front of the bit. Problem is that infeed and outfeed support is now only 12 inches.


This will be a rare occurrence indeed. Just too painful and you can't keep an eye on what's going on.



Cassandra said:


> 6) I might add an Incra LS positioner system on the table at a later date.


I'm a firm follower of the OakPark method. I don't need positioners.

Cassandra, I'm disagreeing with some of your philosophy, from my experience and experiments. However, had you not had the intestinal fortitude to speak up and present your views, a discussion could never have taken place perhaps of benefit to you or others. However, I may not be correct either. We'll know only when the rest of the membership steps up to the plate.


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## Cassandra (Mar 15, 2006)

RStaron said:


> Cassandra, I like you theory's or Ideas on plate placement. I was wondering the same as Greg about placement. I will keep this in mind when I build my next router table, same goes for the overall size.


 Hi Ron (RStaron):

Thanks for the compliments.

Cassandra


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## Cassandra (Mar 15, 2006)

allthunbs said:


> Depending on the method of support you're using with your top, you may not be able to clear all of the protrusions on the router.


Protrusions? The router (Bosch 1617EVSPK motor unit) will be mounted in a custom-made lift, which will be mounted on the support cabinetry. 



allthunbs said:


> By moving the router to the edge, your fence has to be mounted on the entire length of the table. This is a large and difficult to maintain fence. I have a 48" table with a 54" fence made of 8/4" x 12/4" solid maple stock and I'm constantly checking to be sure it is "true."


A bridge that I have yet to cross. Thanks for the heads up on this issue.



allthunbs said:


> It is also a genuine pain in the back and neck to work with that size table continuously.


Not sure why this would be.



allthunbs said:


> Agreed 24" infeed and outfeed support, except when you position the fence diagonally, then, you suddenly find that that support has disappeared. After awhile I found that I would automatically mount a short fence diagonally. Only then would I remember to replace it with the larger fence. All other forms of fences become expensive and cumbersome as well; i.e. tall fence etc.


Agreed. 



allthunbs said:


> I found that it gave lots of space to pile up bits and pieces,


My personal work practices is that I use a tool and then put it away. I don't let a pile of tools to accumulate. If I have a stack of workpieces, then (and only then) will I allow a "pile" of work pieces.



allthunbs said:


> until I built the two hole top and then, all kinds of things started to happen. I would do two setups at a time and suddenly my error rate went down.


Great concept! I often wish I had more than one router, to avoid changing settings.



allthunbs said:


> Really hard on the back and neck.


Don't know why this would be. My table is on casters, so that it can be positioned to accommodate using the table from various sides and so that it can be re-positioned within the workshop.



allthunbs said:


> I'm a firm follower of the OakPark method. I don't need positioners.


I'm not entirely sold on the LS positioner, but have left the proverbial door open to add one later.



allthunbs said:


> Cassandra, I'm disagreeing with some of your philosophy, from my experience and experiments. However, had you not had the intestinal fortitude to speak up and present your views, a discussion could never have taken place perhaps of benefit to you or others. However, I may not be correct either. We'll know only when the rest of the membership steps up to the plate.


 I greatly appreciate your comments, Ron, as discussion is a way to a better understanding and a way to sharing lessons learned.

Cassandra


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Hi Cassandra:



> Protrusions? The router (Bosch 1617EVSPK motor unit) will be mounted in a custom-made lift, which will be mounted on the support cabinetry.


Believe it or not, the stupid cord. The handles are easy enough, just take them off but you can't take the cord off. Next, how are you going to get at the speed control and will the router not care if you use a remote on/off switch?

The fence issue comes out of frustration. Every time it rains, the wind shifts, or the moon... (you know), the fences (4 of them) go out. I tried plywood and that works ok for the short ones but pain in the neck for the long ones.

"Pain in the back" comes from experience. I want to see what is happening at the bit so I lean over the top of the bit or look down the side, especially when I'm using the index pin.



> My personal work practices is that I use a tool and then put it away. I don't let a pile of tools to accumulate. If I have a stack of workpieces, then (and only then) will I allow a "pile" of work pieces.


Lucky you, you have the space. I'm not even in my new workshop and already it is too small. But then, I haven't seen the heating bill yet.



> Great concept! I often wish I had more than one router, to avoid changing settings.


Repeat after me: s-a-t-u-r-d-a-y m-o-r-n-i-n-g i-s f-o-r g-a-r-a-g-e s-a-l-e-s t-o c-o-l-l-e-c-t r-o-u-t-e-r-s ;-)



> Don't know why this would be. My table is on casters, so that it can be positioned to accommodate using the table from various sides and so that it can be re-positioned within the workshop.


Mine too is on casters with full floor locks. Doesn't help with the back pain. I'm 5'10" and end up leaning over tools. It must be worse for you.

Your idea of moving the router to the edge of the table is excellent if you can pull it off. Remember, the size of the table also can dictate what is feasible. If you support your top on three sizes, you leave the fourth free to vibrate when you least want it to -- when you have a big bit going slow and you just happen to hit the sympathetic vibration point and all hell breaks loose. I made sure I had a good beefy 2x4 supporting all edges of my table top. That's when I ran into the protrusions problem.

I'll ship you a copy of my table notes via pm.


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## Cassandra (Mar 15, 2006)

Hi Ron (Allthunbs):

s-a-t-u-r-d-a-y m-o-r-n-i-n-g i-s f-o-r g-a-r-a-g-e s-a-l-e-s t-o c-o-l-l-e-c-t r-o-u-t-e-r-s 

Actually, I prefer to buy new, so as to avoid tools that might have been abused. (As I am a professional engineer, safety is Issue One.)

The cord and speed control on the 1617 are on opposite sides and, thus, forced me to design around this issue.

My top is a two-layer of 3/4" MDF, red oak edging (1-1/2 x 1-1/2 inch), braced (1x3 poplar) unit that is mounted to the top of a double pedestal cabinet. The two pedestals sit upon a base of two layers of 3/4inch baltic birch plywood. The bracing and the pedestals should reduce the vibration issue. If it doesn't go far enough, then I'll retrofirt something to reduce the vibration.

Cassandra


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## Mike Wingate (Apr 26, 2009)

I use an Incra Ultra fence, so the router is central on the fence axis but nearer the front. Is the centre hole in the centre of the plate. can you access the controls from under the table? I had to make a cut out to reach my spindle lock. My on off switch is mounted to the outside of the cabinet.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Cassandra said:


> Hi Ron (Allthunbs):
> 
> s-a-t-u-r-d-a-y m-o-r-n-i-n-g i-s f-o-r g-a-r-a-g-e s-a-l-e-s t-o c-o-l-l-e-c-t r-o-u-t-e-r-s
> 
> Actually, I prefer to buy new, so as to avoid tools that might have been abused. (As I am a professional engineer, safety is Issue One.)


I used to think as you until I found that condition is everything. I found an old Makita hammer drill that looked like death warmed over. The cord was cut off, the casing looked like it had been through a cement mixer (and probably had.) I took the whole thing apart, cleaned all the pieces and inspected them for wear and tolerance. Not one part was out of spec. There was no evidence of thinning of the case or evidence of cracks in either the plastic or the metal. I lubricated the whole thing, reassembled it and, in part, used it to remove >1,000 brick. It is now getting ready to install sewage into a basement floor.

I found a laminate trimmer, "D" handled router, plunge router, and about 75 bits, all for under $100 total, including parts. The most common parts to go are brushes, bearings and cords. These are usually the cheapest and most readily available parts. 

Now, the other side of the coin, I appreciate that the primary advantage to buying new is the warranty followed by the condition of the tool. But, I'm constantly hearing about recalls of this that and the other that is life threatening. I'd prefer something proven by the test of time rather than some phantom warranty offered by a greedy executive who is using cheap labour to fill his own pocket.

I respect your philosophy but I find if I followed it, I would have no shop.



> The cord and speed control on the 1617 are on opposite sides and, thus, forced me to design around this issue.


and I bet the designers thought they were doing it "just right!" ;-)



> My top is a two-layer of 3/4" MDF, red oak edging (1-1/2 x 1-1/2 inch), braced (1x3 poplar) unit that is mounted to the top of a double pedestal cabinet. The two pedestals sit upon a base of two layers of 3/4inch baltic birch plywood. The bracing and the pedestals should reduce the vibration issue. If it doesn't go far enough, then I'll retrofirt something to reduce the vibration.


Are you going to laminate the top - i.e. formica or something? 

I ran into a badly balanced 1 1/2" round over bit, the only one I could find, and it was a pig to control. I was using 1" MDF over DougFir 2"x4"s with Formica laminate using an OakPark baseplate on the M12V as slow as it would go. I thought the world was going to come to an end. What a racket. Got the job done but it sure woke me up and kept the fear of god in me.

BTW, I don't know how tall you are but put make a mockup of your table with some masking tape on the kitchen table then lean over to see where the bit is working and imagine doing that while making your husband's finger joint tool chest.

Engineers or not, we all need sounding boards to force us to think from all angles.

Hope this helps.


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## Cassandra (Mar 15, 2006)

Hi Ron (allthunbs):

Yes, I will laminate (Formica) top and bottom. Then chamfer top and bottom edges.

My height is 6'-1". No need to make a mock-up -- the cabinet and top are sufficiently constructed to allow me to appraise the back-breaking rating of my design.

No Mr. Right yet. 
Cassandra


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Cassandra said:


> Hi Ron (allthunbs):
> 
> Yes, I will laminate (Formica) top and bottom. Then chamfer top and bottom edges.
> 
> ...


Oops, wrong husband, wrong tool box.  Is this the right forum? 

Lucky you. My tables are all 36" and if I don't get myself positioned just right and have done a full routine of stretches, I'd be in pain for several days.


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## Cassandra (Mar 15, 2006)

Hi Ron (allthunbs):

My table sits just a little above 36 inches. Other tables I use are about the same height. My table saw (DeWalt 744XRS) is a bit shorter. I have spent all weekend working at these heights and don't have a problem with the height. Also, I could use the workshop stool to sit at the router table, if the work is suitable for sitting.

Cassandra


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Cassandra said:


> Hi Ron (allthunbs):
> 
> My table sits just a little above 36 inches. Other tables I use are about the same height. My table saw (DeWalt 744XRS) is a bit shorter. I have spent all weekend working at these heights and don't have a problem with the height. Also, I could use the workshop stool to sit at the router table, if the work is suitable for sitting.
> 
> Cassandra


Ok, we've discussed this at length, now's the time to do it. However, for the benefit of those that come after us, please document your opinions as you progress through the craft. Your opinions are particularly important to others making their own tables. I'm particularly interested in how you're suspending the router close to the edge.


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## Cassandra (Mar 15, 2006)

Hi Ron:

There are a few things I need to do before the table is ready. These include the router lift, laminating and fastening the top, and building the leveling feet. Hopefully, I'll find the time before the end of the year. Then I'll post lots of details and photos.

As I progress in the construction of my table, the design has never been finalized. It'll never will be. Like Bones said on the first Star Trek movie, we engineers love to change things. For example, the lift design is still active. Several designs have come and gone; more will come and go.

Cassandra


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Cassandra said:


> Hi Ron:
> 
> There are a few things I need to do before the table is ready. These include the router lift, laminating and fastening the top, and building the leveling feet. Hopefully, I'll find the time before the end of the year. Then I'll post lots of details and photos.
> 
> ...


Hi Cassandra:

I have a hard time with router lifts. I'm so used to popping the baseplate it would never occur to me to use a lift. I'd be interested in seeing what you're using for levelling feet. I use 2x4 blocks to lock down the tables and shims to level if necessary but then my shop changes moment by moment.

I have found that my router usage has changed dramatically in the past several years. As you learn on the forum you modify your working methods accordingly. The problem I'm faced with is I have too many tools and sometimes trying to decide which to use is a study in itself. 

Gotta run, got to get some sleep.


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

Cassandra said:


> 6) I might add an Incra LS positioner system on the table at a later date.
> Cassandra


Hi Cassandra 

Since you mention you may want to add an LS at a later date I've attached a couple pages out of the LS manual that shows recommended mounting positions relative to the router bit and how to gain more space at that time, if you choose to add it.


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## Cassandra (Mar 15, 2006)

Thanks, Jim. I've copied the PDF file to my hard drive.

Cassandra


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## NotToDay (May 15, 2013)

First Off thanks for all the great information. Like so many others I’ve decided to build my router table and have been searching for the best location for my insert plate. My table dimension is 30 x 49 I can place the router insert to the left side of the table center. The table height will match up to my work bench so out feed shouldn’t be a problem.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

This is an update photo of the tops that I'm using or have used over time. The formica-covered double was an excellent design but too hard on the back. I've since followed Casandra's recommendation. However, my router table base is a rail and stile construction so I had to build for specific routers and specific mounting orientation.

At the same time as I took these photos, I was building the ski table. I'll be getting it out in the next month so I'll try to remember to take some pictures. 

Hope this helps.

Allthunbs


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