# your council please



## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

I'm in the throes of using a drop-in roman bathtub as an undermount. The problem is the opening in the deck must match the inside edge of the tub flange exactly. I was thinking I'd just use a bearinged straight bit and just cut a template directly off of the bath. The bath is acrylic and thus even the slightest scratch will show up as a major imperfection. Are there any suggestions as to how you would cut the template?

Thanks for your help and input.

Ron


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## jlord (Nov 16, 2009)

Cover the tub with blue painters tape. Helps protect surface as you make your template.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

jlord said:


> Cover the tub with blue painters tape. Helps protect surface as you make your template.


Hi James:

Thanks for the suggestion.

My fear is that the bearing will stick and burn through the painter's tape. Even the blue stuff won't protect from that. I'm wondering if I should use a nylon bearing or some other material???? Anything to keep the bit away from the gel coat on the tub.


Happy New Year and thanks for the help.

Ron


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## jlord (Nov 16, 2009)

Nylon bearing wouldn't hurt if you have one if it helps ease your mind. You can double up on the path of the bearing with the tape. I use this technique many times to protect nice surfaces from bearing marks when applying laminate. Biggest problem there is the bit & bearing get gummed up from the contact cement but you will not have that problem as you are just making a template off the tub. Just make sure you have a clean & free bearing before you begin & don't set the bit to deep. Just barely deep enough to cut the template.

Maybe a new bit for the job. Don't forget to double check the screw before you begin to avoid a mishap. Without a picture of the situation it's hard to recommend a different route for making the template off the tub. If you can flush trim a pattern off the tub this is probably the way to go. Using 1/4" mdf for the template would also help. Is the tub flange square or an oval?


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## jlord (Nov 16, 2009)

When applying tape you will probably use it in several strips. If your router path is clockwise then apply tape overlap in a counter clockwise direction so the bearing runs off the tape & not into the edge of the next strip. This help keep the bearing from lifting the edge of tape as the bearing passes over the edge. The thickness of the tape also keeps the cutter that much further from your tub surface.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

'allthumbs'; as a long time residential renovation contractor, my very serious concerns would be for the imperviousness of the interface between the tub and the wood decking.
In a standard installation, the tub would be top mounted over a waterproof surface, be it tile or marble, with a silicone seal at the joint. 
I'd question whether the technique you're suggesting would satisfy your local building code (?). When it comes to bathrooms water is _not_ your friend!
Please give it a some more consideration before you commit to the hole as you described. It's a very expensive condition to rectify, after the fact.
Cheers, and good luck!


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## jlord (Nov 16, 2009)

DaninVan said:


> 'allthumbs'; as a long time residential renovation contractor, my very serious concerns would be for the imperviousness of the interface between the tub and the wood decking.
> In a standard installation, the tub would be top mounted over a waterproof surface, be it tile or marble, with a silicone seal at the joint.
> I'd question whether the technique you're suggesting would satisfy your local building code (?). When it comes to bathrooms water is _not_ your friend!
> Please give it a some more consideration before you commit to the hole as you described. It's a very expensive condition to rectify, after the fact.
> Cheers, and good luck!


Well then there's always that.:wacko:


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Hi Dan:



DaninVan said:


> 'allthumbs'; as a long time residential renovation contractor, my very serious concerns would be for the imperviousness of the interface between the tub and the wood decking.
> In a standard installation, the tub would be top mounted over a waterproof surface, be it tile or marble, with a silicone seal at the joint.
> I'd question whether the technique you're suggesting would satisfy your local building code (?). When it comes to bathrooms water is _not_ your friend!
> Please give it a some more consideration before you commit to the hole as you described. It's a very expensive condition to rectify, after the fact.
> Cheers, and good luck!


Originally, I was going to top mount the tub over a solid maple "deck" sitting on top of a SPF frame. When I started thinking about it, all it would take is some silicone sealant and I could mount the deck on top of the tub. 

So, my solution is to build the frame to support the tub under the rim and a cement pad under the body of the tub. Next the maple-block top would be added with some sort of support between it and the frame to eliminate distortion of the tub rim. That joint would be accomplished with silicone sealant. I was going to seal the maple with some sort of marine varnish. The sides will be a combination of gyproc and a table frame (stretcher, legs etc.)

Does this seem reasonable? I have lots of sugar maple. We use it for firewood here so I figured it would be an inexpensive aesthetic material.

Thanks for the comments.

Ron


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Hi James:

Thanks for following this through with me. It always helps to have a sounding board for crazy ideas ;-)



jlord said:


> Nylon bearing wouldn't hurt if you have one if it helps ease your mind. You can double up on the path of the bearing with the tape. I use this technique many times to protect nice surfaces from bearing marks when applying laminate. Biggest problem there is the bit & bearing get gummed up from the contact cement but you will not have that problem as you are just making a template off the tub. Just make sure you have a clean & free bearing before you begin & don't set the bit to deep. Just barely deep enough to cut the template.
> 
> Maybe a new bit for the job. Don't forget to double check the screw before you begin to avoid a mishap. Without a picture of the situation it's hard to recommend a different route for making the template off the tub. If you can flush trim a pattern off the tub this is probably the way to go. Using 1/4" mdf for the template would also help. Is the tub flange square or an oval?


I'll go see if I can find a nylon bearing today. Wish me luck. Quebec is no place for "specialty" items. OK, I'll see if I can squirrel out the bucks for a new bit -- it's got to go past the boss so wish me luck. She's the original penny pincher )

Thanks for the checklist. Gotta go, talk soon.

Ron


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

allthumbs; not to belabour the point but wood and water do not mix! If you insist on using it as a tub deck you'll ABSOLUTELY have to use an epoxy clear penetrating resin BEFORE installing the tub rim on top. There are no other clear finishes which are absolutely waterproof. I can't stress enough the potential for damage from water staining and wood swelling and buckling. A very risky concept.
I should maybe suggest Teak or Redwood/Cedar as better, more water resistant alternatives(?). 
Cheers,
-Dan


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

DaninVan said:


> allthumbs; not to belabour the point but wood and water do not mix! If you insist on using it as a tub deck you'll ABSOLUTELY have to use an epoxy clear penetrating resin BEFORE installing the tub rim on top. There are no other clear finishes which are absolutely waterproof. I can't stress enough the potential for damage from water staining and wood swelling and buckling. A very risky concept.
> I should maybe suggest Teak or Redwood/Cedar as better, more water resistant alternatives(?).
> Cheers,
> -Dan


Hi Dan:

I'm hearing you. Ok, on the materials side I don't have too many options. Plastics are way too expensive. Would you do me a favour and look at the CTC or Home Depot site (US or Canada) and give me the SKU for a product you think will do the job?

Thanks for the help.

Ron


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

*Epoxy sealer*



allthunbs said:


> Hi Dan:
> 
> I'm hearing you. Ok, on the materials side I don't have too many options. Plastics are way too expensive. Would you do me a favour and look at the CTC or Home Depot site (US or Canada) and give me the SKU for a product you think will do the job?
> 
> ...


Hey Ron; I checked the HomeDepot site...no joy.
You're looking for S1 Epoxy sealer, made by Industrial Formulators. I Googled for online sources and came up with a few...'noahsmarine.com' (sorry, I'm not allowed to post URLs yet) seems like a good choice up here, North of 49.
It's a very thin viscosity epoxy that penetrates deeply. It and similar products are usually found at boat building supply locations. I first started using it about 25 years ago, to repair exterior wood window sills which had badly deteriorated. A couple of sealer coats and the wood had effectively been fossilized! A further build up coat of auto body filler and the wood looked like new. (did I mention all the wire brushing and sanding with rotten wood?  )
Warning: this stuff is potent...wear a vapour mask and nitrile gloves. Actually that's sound advice for any epoxies.
Cheers, eh!
-Dan


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

*clear penetrating epoxy sealer*

Just a quick note for anyone picking up on this thread in the future. 

Epoxy is manufactured by a few companies around the world. They then sell this "pure" product on to "formulators" that create the concoctions that you can buy in the hardware store. The problem is that one of those "concoctions" in my neighbourhood will probably be different than in your's. Because of this, it is difficult to identify what actually is "clear penetrating epoxy sealer." The formulator in my neighbourhood sells 100% epoxy that you can mix with thinners yourself to create something that meets your needs.

There are actually organizations that refuse to sell the 100% epoxy resin. Be prepared for strange policies depending on who and where your supplier is. You will find different policies from one formulator to the next.

For a reasonable but confusing array of information you might see "http://www.epoxyproducts.com/". Paul provides an in-depth explanation of all forms of resins. But, this is not an in depth course in chemistry.

All that said, when you're looking for something like "clear penetrating epoxy resin" don't bother with your hardware store, go directly to your regional formulator. But, be specific about your needs. Every formulator has a recipe book and he can create a concoction for you to match your specific requirement. 

This is a whole new world for me. I didn't know this kind of environment existed. If you're doing anything that requires more than just latex paint over primer, talk with your local formulator. He may have a far more effective solution for less money than your big box hardware store.

Finding a formulator may be problematic. I couldn't find one in the yellow pages. There's no section heading for "epoxy formulators." I found one by stopping by a local shop that did Fiberglas fabricating. He put me onto his formulator.

For my specific requirement, I'll wipe off the maple with isopropyl alcohol. Next, I'll warm the maple and the epoxy, add thinners and hardeners and spread in a cool environment. The warmed epoxy will loose viscosity (become thinner) As the wood cools, it will suck up the epoxy into the pores improving coverage and adhesion.

I hope this is of some assistance.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Hi Dan:

Thanks for the reply.



DaninVan said:


> Hey Ron; I checked the HomeDepot site...no joy.
> You're looking for S1 Epoxy sealer, made by Industrial Formulators. I Googled for online sources and came up with a few...'noahsmarine.com' (sorry, I'm not allowed to post URLs yet) seems like a good choice up here, North of 49.
> It's a very thin viscosity epoxy that penetrates deeply. It and similar products are usually found at boat building supply locations. I first started using it about 25 years ago, to repair exterior wood window sills which had badly deteriorated. A couple of sealer coats and the wood had effectively been fossilized! A further build up coat of auto body filler and the wood looked like new. (did I mention all the wire brushing and sanding with rotten wood?  )
> Warning: this stuff is potent...wear a vapour mask and nitrile gloves. Actually that's sound advice for any epoxies.
> ...


I too went looking at Home Depot with no luck. I then started looking around for other users of resins and came across one a mere 50km from me so I paid him a visit and he gave me the name and address of his formulator. 

I now have access to 100% resin that I can formulate as I need. I'm figuring a 100% + 15% by weight of isopropyl alcohol should give me a nicely thinned coating. 2 coats and I should have an effective non-UV protected deck. Testing will be underway shortly.

Just a note: what you're using is laced with thinners. That's what you're finding it toxic. My formulator told me that 100% epoxy is not toxic and has no odor. It is dangerous only because it will attach firmly to skin and it is not easy to remove.

Just a quick question: do you think this formula could also be used as an adhesive? The same construction needs to be glued up with a similarly robust adhesive.

This has been quite an eyeopener for me. I didn't know that plastics were so readily available. I thought there were only a few big multi-nationals and you had to tow the line to gain access. In actual fact, it is the exact opposite. I appear to have several local formulators that are more than eager to sell me what ever I need. The price seems to be steep but compared to other products it is far more affordable from formulators than from retailers.

Now, how do you apply your's? I'm thinking that brushes would be a waste - foam brushes useless - rollers would be good for the first 5 minutes and after that would be useless -- that leaves a cedar shingle which gives a less than satisfactory even coating. ?????

Thanks for your input and your assistance. Your's and Jame's input got me in the right direction. I'll let you know how it turns out. I'll be adding epoxy to my concrete repairs in the spring too. 

Ron


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Wow! Man you've given me info that _I_ wasn't aware of; thanks!!

I live on the West Coast so access to boatbuilding materials and suppliers is fairly straightforward. I just buy my 'S1' from either the local lumberyard or from my fibreglass materials distributor.
Disposable brushes are _my_ friend, Allthumbs.  
On the toxicity thing, the stuff I use has extremely volatile thinner...guessing something like toluene(?)...and it's really obnoxious! Their point is that it flashes off very rapidly. It's also fairly cool weather tolerant. 
Epoxy is absorbed through the skin and is considered to be very carcinogenic as well as toxic. That's why they stress washing it off only with soap and water, not epoxy thinner.
Cheers, and again thanks for the feedback.
-Dan


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Hi Dan:



DaninVan said:


> Wow! Man you've given me info that _I_ wasn't aware of; thanks!!


Hey, that's what this forum is all about -- providing information and help.



DaninVan said:


> I live on the West Coast so access to boatbuilding materials and suppliers is fairly straightforward. I just buy my 'S1' from either the local lumberyard or from my fibreglass materials distributor.


That's recommended here as well, except now, for me, that is the avenue of last resort.



DaninVan said:


> Disposable brushes are _my_ friend, Allthumbs.


Well, I guess I'll just have to try your friends' then 



DaninVan said:


> On the toxicity thing, the stuff I use has extremely volatile thinner...guessing something like toluene(?)...and it's really obnoxious! Their point is that it flashes off very rapidly. It's also fairly cool weather tolerant.


That's where I have a problem. I use isopropyl alcohol because it is fast evaporating, high flash point, high Stoichiometric number solvent that leaves no residue. I'm waiting to find out if it is less expensive than some of the other solvents. But, I use it in the house in Lampes Berger so I'm quite confident in its' use. It burns off very quickly and must be protected from the environment or it will evaporate very quickly. It is not odourless but not toxic in small doses. Open flame is its only enemy.



DaninVan said:


> Epoxy is absorbed through the skin and is considered to be very carcinogenic as well as toxic. That's why they stress washing it off only with soap and water, not epoxy thinner.
> Cheers, and again thanks for the feedback.
> -Dan


This part is news for me. My formulator informed me that pure epoxy resin was quite safe but that the thinners etc were the toxic elements. He also stated that they give off no toxic odours. Ah well, through confusion comes understanding ;-)

Later...

Ron


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Industrial Formulators

See, Ron, that's what I get for reading the instructions on the can! 
I never questioned _why_ the stuff was toxic/carcinogenic; you're probably dead right about the thinners being the problem.
You'll get a chuckle from this:
Epoxy Toxicity in the news today..
You suggested that rollers wouldn't work for applying the sealer; why?
Your plastics supplier should have had suitable roller sleeves in stock(?) 
The viscosity I'm used to would be comparable to something like milk, perfect for roller application where saturation is important. 
You also asked earlier about using it as an adhesive. I'd be pretty leery about trying that as it's so thin and absorbs easily. The short answer is I have no idea.
Cheers,
-Dan
l


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Hi Dan:



DaninVan said:


> Industrial Formulators
> 
> See, Ron, that's what I get for reading the instructions on the can!
> I never questioned _why_ the stuff was toxic/carcinogenic; you're probably dead right about the thinners being the problem.
> ...


Interesting observations. I note the 50% solids/polymides. 50% is a lot of thinners. That's quite a concoction. Anything I've read says 15% is optimum. ?-)



DaninVan said:


> You suggested that rollers wouldn't work for applying the sealer; why?


I was thinking that the rollers would seize up with the curing epoxy. What are your observations? I've only used popsicle sticks in the past.



DaninVan said:


> Your plastics supplier should have had suitable roller sleeves in stock(?)
> The viscosity I'm used to would be comparable to something like milk, perfect for roller application where saturation is important.


Well, I'll rethink that one. Thanks for the input.



DaninVan said:


> You also asked earlier about using it as an adhesive. I'd be pretty leery about trying that as it's so thin and absorbs easily. The short answer is I have no idea.


I'm working on the premise that sugar maple doesn't allow penetration too far into the cell structure on the side grain. I'm making a deck out of scrapped maple. I cut out the flaws, strip the remainder and glue up in a side-grain similar to a butcher block. Coat with epoxy and I've got a very attractive bath tub. (I hope!)[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the observations and discussions. Every one of these, I get just a bit more refined an idea of what I'm thinking of and how to do it. Yay!

Ron


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

Ron,

I don't remember who made them (I saw them here) but there are flush trim router bits where the outside of the bearing, instead of being round and metal, is nearly square. I think it may have been a polymer (HDPE?) but I'm not sure on that part.

Being square, the outer part does not rotate and so cannot burn the surface.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Laminate Trimming Bits with Euro Square Bearing

Katana® Rabbeting Router Bit Kits, Round Nose / Core Box Router Bits, Flush Trim Router Bits

OR

I have the ones below they are great  free shipping also once you get over 25.oo.. (WhiteSide bits )

Whiteside Router Bits from Woodworkersworld.net--Laminate trim, bevel router bit


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## jlord (Nov 16, 2009)

bobj3 said:


> Laminate Trimming Bits with Euro Square Bearing
> 
> Katana® Rabbeting Router Bit Kits, Round Nose / Core Box Router Bits, Flush Trim Router Bits


Thanks for posting that Bob. I've been trying to remember where I saw them for awhile now.:yes4:


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

BigJimAK said:


> Ron,
> 
> I don't remember who made them (I saw them here) but there are flush trim router bits where the outside of the bearing, instead of being round and metal, is nearly square. I think it may have been a polymer (HDPE?) but I'm not sure on that part.
> 
> Being square, the outer part does not rotate and so cannot burn the surface.


Hi Jim:

Thanks for joining in. Those are (reported to be) teflon. I don't know that they're just a coating or some sort of laminate. Instead I've opted for the delrin sleeved bearings. 

Tom Walz carries them at Carbide Processors. Southeast Tools distributes the Euro bearings under SKU#s SBE115-ES and SBE140-ES. The Delrin bearings are SBE117($4.94) and SBE121($11.17). If I remember correctly, the Euro bearings go four around $5-.

Ok, here's a twist for you. I've just checked the Carbide Processors' catalogue online. The Southeast Tool Euro bearings go for $4.49 each for the 3/4" x 3/16". The Whiteside B8SQ which appear to be identical to the Southeast Tool ones are $5.62. Huh? $1 more-- for what???

Here's my thinking. I'm hard on bearings. I'm always burning them out. Too much garbage wood I think. OK, ok - my bad technique:-( If the Euro bearings (the square ones) burn out and seize I'll have an uncontrollable monster on my hands and be unable to finish the job.

The delrin bearings are circular and are just a sleeve slipped over a standard bearing. If the bearing goes south, I figure all I'll do is slip off the sleeve and stick it on another bearing. I'll let you know how that philosophy works when it happens.

I'm using gelcoat as the guide for my bearing to cut a pattern. I can't take any chances. I figure I'll coat the gelcoat with thick painter's tape and use the delrin bearing and take on a new fervour when praying ;-)

Ron


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## jlord (Nov 16, 2009)

Hi Ron. 
If you use the delrin sleeve over your bearing do you have to step down in size of the bearing to end up with the same diameter?


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

You're Welcome James
I was going to ask the same as you about the delrin sleeve,that could be tricky..

As we know stuff will not stick to Teflon or Poly. but on the same hand it would hard to get it to stay in place on the bearing as well, that maybe why they use slip overTeflon boot type..


http://www.google.com/#hl=en&sugexp....,cf.osb&fp=5ffb088a65f0122a&biw=1117&bih=618
==


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## jlord (Nov 16, 2009)

The problem with the bearing is it collects the contact cement applied to laminate as it rolls across the piece as your trimming edge flush. With the bearing gummed up your edge will not trim flush. You have to clean off the bearing & go back over the piece. I saw these delrin bearings a while back but couldn't remember where to get them. I always wish I had some every time I apply laminate & have to clean the contact cement off the surface of the bearing..


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

*BJ & Ron*

BJ, I should have remembered it was you who posted about those!!

Ron,

The advantage of the Euro bearing is it does not rotate against the reference surface so it cannot burn it.

That doesn't necessarily make it best for you, as YMMV...

Jim


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## jlord (Nov 16, 2009)

BigJimAK said:


> BJ, I should have remembered it was you who posted about those!!
> 
> Ron,
> 
> ...


Wouldn't it only burn if the bearing froze up & turned at bit speed. Otherwise it should only turn as fast as your feed rate.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi

I blew a cover off the bearing and 
Whiteside Router Bits from Woodworkersworld.net--Laminate trim, bevel router bit
replace it at no charge, he said they should never freeze up and pull off the Teflon boot..the one I blew up had a small crack in the Teflon ...


==== 



jlord said:


> Wouldn't it only burn if the bearing froze up & turned at bit speed. Otherwise it should only turn as fast as your feed rate.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

jlord said:


> Hi Ron.
> If you use the delrin sleeve over your bearing do you have to step down in size of the bearing to end up with the same diameter?


Hi James:

The sleeve matches the size of the bit so I'm sure I'll have to find a bearing to "fit" the delrin.

Ron


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

jlord said:


> The problem with the bearing is it collects the contact cement applied to laminate as it rolls across the piece as your trimming edge flush. With the bearing gummed up your edge will not trim flush. You have to clean off the bearing & go back over the piece. I saw these delrin bearings a while back but couldn't remember where to get them. I always wish I had some every time I apply laminate & have to clean the contact cement off the surface of the bearing..


Hi James:

Ok, the real question is "does contact cement or any other adhesive adhere to delrin?"

According to Wikipoedia, Polyoxymethylene (POM) (commercial name is delrin) is typically very difficult to bond.

This might do the trick. Ok, Tom Walz at Carbide Processors sells SouthEast Tools and Southeast has delrin bearings "SBE117 - ½" outside diameter, 3/16" inside diameter, Delrin Sleeve Bearing" for $3.94 ea.

Now, for Canadians, Carbide Processors has a Canadian distribution warehouse in Ontario. Ordering from them distributes into Canada from that warehouse. 

Hope this helps.

Ron


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

BigJimAK said:


> BJ, I should have remembered it was you who posted about those!!
> 
> Ron,
> 
> ...


Hi Jim:

That's the premise. But, that's a steel bearing in the middle. Only the outside race has been coated in Teflon (I think.) If the bearing seizes the four corners of the square race could become something akin to a jack hammer banging away on my gelcoat. The delrin is round so even if the bearing seizes, the delrin should do no damage. The worst case I can see is that the delrin will come loose of the outside race if the bearing seizes.

Does this seem reasonable?

Ron


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## feaanalysis (Sep 17, 2012)

*Hi*

Hello members!

I would like to introduce myself as CAD drafter and would like to get answers from forum members.

Looking forward to your kind support!

Regards
Michael


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