# Table Routing vs Shaper with collets



## woodnthings (Jan 30, 2009)

Ok I know there are no "stupid questions" only "stupid " answers, but this may fall into both categories! I know that for those folks who want to primarily do table routing, that by the time you buy the router $200-$350, buy the table $200- $500, buy the table stand $200- $300, you may have invested around $1000 bucks. Been there done that.
My "stupid" question is: Why not just get the Grizzly 3hp shaper at $900 -950 and a collet for router bits at $50?  The hidden advantage is shhhh...it's also a shaper....! So, you are already down that road for free! I bought mine a while back and it comes with the fence, table, guard, miter gage, runs on 220v, and comes with 1/2" 3/4" and 1" arbors and it will never be underpowered! The main objection I can see is that the shapers maximum speed is 10,000 RPM. This may not work well for small diameter cutters. I don't know? But it will be Ok for the 3" ones. Ok, I know you can't hand hold it, but if it's holding hands you like, there are web sites for that stuff too.  This will probably open a new can of worms, but it hit me like a shot last night, and I thought I'd throw it out there/here. I haven't used mine in this manner, yet so I may be in for some surprises! 
Added to this post later today, to clarify the question:
I'm looking for a discussion on the merits of the shaper using router bits in the optional collet vs the same operations on the router table with all other factors, especially cost being the same. High end router tableset up vs medium cost shaper from Grizzly, same cost approximately. Has anyone got experience using a shaper in this manner? Please advise. Thanks. Bill


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## Ghidrah (Oct 21, 2008)

Regarding table routing, outside of the initial cost of a router when bought in 97 just about $300.00, (a 7539) I built my cabinet and table, (using AWs plans) for maybe $75.00 and that was more than fine for over 11 yrs. I've spent way more on bits. 
Many woodworkers don't apply all the bells and whistles, (cabinets, vac attachments, fence tracks, Lifts, motorized lifts, kill switches). The ones that do make the applications don't always go into it hog-wild, more likely a gradual change over the years. 
After a decade I recently bought the Bench Dog pro-lift, switched to a T track on the table, added a T track to the fence and modified the vac chamber to be more efficient.

As for shapers my guess is floor space, the initial cost of a decent shaper, the cost of the cutters and the need for a unit of this capacity. If I were a production shop I'd certainly have a solid shaper.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Bill

We need to talk .. you can put a router table up and running for about 250.oo maybe a bit less ,unlike a shaper,,, that must be made by a Mfg.
,most are cast iron and steel..

The shaper is a bit limited in what it can do, unlike the router table..not to say anything about the cost of the cutters...but I will say they do have a place in the wood shop,,,I had one along time ago but I moved up to the router table...
It's true you can use some router bits in the shaper but it's bit hairy to use it that way.. 

but this is just my 2 cents 


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woodnthings said:


> Ok I know there are no "stupid questions" only "stupid " answers, but this may fall into both categories! I know that for those folks who want to primarily do table routing, that by the time you buy the router $200-$350, buy the table $200- $500, buy the table stand $200- $300, you may have invested around $1000 bucks. Been there done that.
> My "stupid" question is: Why not just get the Grizzly 3hp shaper at $900 -950 and a collet for router bits at $50?  The hidden advantage is shhhh...it's also a shaper....! So, you are already down that road for free! I bought mine a while back and it comes with the fence, table, guard, miter gage, runs on 220v, and comes with 1/2" 3/4" and 1" arbors and it will never be underpowered! The main objection I can see is that the shapers maximum speed is 10,000 RPM. This may not work well for small diameter cutters. I don't know? But it will be Ok for the 3' ones. Ok, I know you can't hand hold it, but if it's holding hands you like, there are web sites for that stuff too.  This will probably open a new can of worms, but it hit me like a shot last night, and I thought I'd throw it out there/here. I haven't used mine in this manner, yet so I may be in for some surprises! Sincerly,Bill


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

woodnthings said:


> Why not just get the Grizzly 3hp shaper...


Hi Bill: Hmmmm, my table mounted Hitachi cost me $30 and that included a bunch of bits. My 4th router table cost me about $10 but my 5th, 6th, and 7th will be a bit more. My 5th will be a reworking of my existing one. The 6th will be for a duplicator and the 7th will be for 3' skis.

If a router were only fixed to a table then perhaps your observation would garner much support and the router would have died long ago. My observation would be that the shaper is a fixed-use tool whereas the router is far more versatile, the table being only one use.

Allthunbs


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## woodnthings (Jan 30, 2009)

Yes Guys, I know we can all put together all kinds of combinations of $50 routers and homemade tables and fences, I understand that. My question was more about if the budget is $1000 what makes a better purchase? ...a fully outfitted router, table, (I didn't mention a lift at $250 or so) under cabinet. switch etc. or..all the above included in the shaper for the same money. Are there reasons other than the the portability issue which favors one over the other, that I can't see from over here? I raise this because we get so many questions from folks starting out about which is the best router? which is best table? Collets? Guide bushings? etc. It seems to me what we lost in portability, (a factor, but how many of us take our table routers out of the table?) we gained in the ability to use the enormous variety of shaper cutters, some of which are reversible from top to bottom, and all the router bits as well. It's just food for thought and discussion. I really don't expect that there is one absolute answer here. I also raise the issue because it may be helpful for someone starting out, to budget their future purchases. Thanks for your interest everyone, Bill

Added to original post at a later time and here as well:
I'm looking for a discussion on the merits of the shaper using router bits in the optional collet vs the same operations on the router table with all other factors, especially cost being the same. High end router tableset up vs medium cost shaper from Grizzly, same cost approximately. Has anyone got experience using a shaper in this manner? Please advise. Thanks. Bill

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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

woodnthings said:


> I also raise the issue because it may be helpful for someone starting out, to budget their future purchases. Thanks for your interest everyone, Bill


I wrote and posted a series of notes on routers that answered many questions for beginners and allowed them the information they needed to make informed decisions. I was forced to withdraw it.

Allthunbs


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Bill

Router table setup 
Lets add one up just for kicks

router combo with built in lift 100.oo
router mounting plate 20.oo
brass guide set 20.oo (opt. item)
plywood to make the cabinet 30.oo
mdf for the top of the cabinet 15.oo
mdf for the fence , 10.oo
vac.pickup pickup tube 5.oo
bolts and nuts and screws 5.oo

that's 215.oo dollars . that's with a plunge router and a standard router in one combo kit. 

I think that's why may go the router table way and not with the shaper.
add a 100.oo for a 3HP router , but that's a bit over kill for most router tables. 

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woodnthings said:


> Yes Guys, I know we can all put together all kinds of combinations of $50 routers and homemade tables and fences, I understand that. My question was more about if the budget is $1000 what makes a better purchase? ...a fully outfitted router, table, (I didn't mention a lift at $250 or so) under cabinet. switch etc. or..all the above included in the shaper for the same money. Are there reasons other than the the portability issue which favors one over the other, that I can't see from over here? I raise this because we get so many questions from folks starting out about which is the best router? which is best table? Collets? Guide bushings? etc. It seems to me what we lost in portability, (a factor, but how many of us take our table routers out of the table?) we gained in the ability to use the enormous variety of shaper cutters, some of which are reversible from top to bottom, and all the router bits as well. It's just food for thought and discussion. I really don't expect that there is one absolute answer here. I also raise the issue because it may be helpful for someone starting out, to budget their future purchases. Thanks for your interest everyone, Bill


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## Ghidrah (Oct 21, 2008)

WoodNThings,
Until late last fall, the plunge came out of the table all the time. I used the PC 694 on decking, (composite, Fir, Mahogany, SYP) and the PC 7539 for caps, railing and balusters. I was never willing to modify the 7539, (remove springs to make table set-ups easier) because I used it so much on the job site.

I think a molder is much more versatile than a shaper regarding the variety of profiles and possible sizes. However the shaper excels certain jobs like production work, door making, jointing, and some profiling.


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## tmiller (Feb 8, 2007)

Hey Bob, 
I'm thinking that I'm sorta typical of a new woodworker, in that I bought a PC 693 kit and a Rockler table top. Meaning that I have more than 215 dollars in the setup at this point. I actually started my adventure with a HF plunge router on a plate and tabletop I made myself ($50) but, it tried to kill me, so I haven't used it much lately. 
After a bit more routing seat time I can see that, I may actually be able to make a setup that suits it's intented use for the bargain budget money of which you speak but, for now it ain't happenin'. Either way, I agree that a shaper, is not a hobbiest tool,( at a hobby price) but a machine you purchase when money making and speed are the goals.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

I watched a recent episode of "this old house" where a post and beam organization was automated. I got to thinking about all of the equipment and how and why it was needed. I figure the only answer is repeatability. All of the operations are repeats of the one that came before. The same could be said of shapers and molders. But, when properly setup, the router can perform the same tasks with the only variable being the operator. Rather than a computer, you've got a man or woman.

I take a look at shaper cutters and molder setups and router bits and for one-off operations, the router can't be beat. Even small scale production is more cost-effective with router(s). The dividing line is particleboard. You are no longer working with wood and you're into mass production to cover your costs so, there you'll need the big stuff. I can see no use in a wood shop for a shaper when there are routers and imagination combined. I like the router for versatility and the ease that allows me a variety of methods of accomplishing a given task.

I go back and look at the old planes and there's still stuff where even using a router I can't duplicate. I'm learning how to use scrapers and you can't get that finish with sand paper or router bits. No matter how effective the new, there are still reasons to learn the old ways.

Allthunbs


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## FatFreddysCat (Apr 5, 2009)

woodnthings said:


> My question was more about if the budget is $1000 what makes a better purchase? ...a fully outfitted router, table, (I didn't mention a lift at $250 or so) under cabinet. switch etc. or..all the above included in the shaper for the same money.


Neither. It all depends on the task you are trying to perform. For large scale shaping you can't really beat a 5HP production shaper with a power feeder. There's not a router in the world which can work a 2 x 3/4in rebate in oak in a single pass. On the other hand you can't lug a shaper over to a counter top and trim the laminate flush.......

If you are just comparing a router in a table against a shaper then the shaper should win hands down. Except that my three router tables were all made from scrap offcuts (so zero cost), they're portable enough to take out on an installation job, they can be unscrewed and put away beneath my bench when not in use (try that with a 500lb shaper) but most of all they work with a lot of tooling which I already had. Most of that tooling is TCT or TC-RT so handling MDF or plywood is no great problem. Have you seen the price of carbide tipped shaper tooling recently?

As to using router bits in a shaper collet I'd be wary. For all but the 3in plus panel bits the shaper is turning much too slowly although having power feed and a super accurate fence was a boon (my experience from having used a Felder)

My overall opinion would be that if you are doing production volumes and have the budget then go for a shaper with 3HP or more and shaper tooling, but only if space is not at a premium. At work I use shapers and router tables. In my home shop I only use a router table.


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## jschaben (Jun 21, 2009)

*For my application, Shaper Lost*

I realize that this thread is getting a bit old but it follows along with a question that I was about to post, so I thought I might revive it. :bad:
My question was going to be what router table would best replace a shaper?

I just recently got into woodworking and routing. I got, what I thought was a good deal on a shaper. Guess I thought it was a router on steroids or something. 

Well, the first thing I found out is that there was no way to make a dado. The fence would not adjust behind the center of the spindle, and precious little in front of it. Who makes a dado with a shaper anyway? Well, I got my drill and tap out (aluminum rascal) and now the fence will move a respectable, if not optimal distance. 

My first project with it was to make some drawers for my new workbench. Having finally got the dados cut for the bottoms, I got out my newly acquired drawer lock bit. Lo and behold, a 2" tall fence does not lend itself well to running stock vertically. 
After making and installing a 5" fence, I found that Sears wasn't to particular about how square the fence was to the table, after all, only 2" high, how far off can it get? After a few hours of reviewing the Craftsman peoples lineage, I finally got the fence squared up and got my drawers made.

_Other issues:_ *No bits larger than about 2 3/4" *and that would be shakey cutting an insert that fits in a 3 1/4" opening. Shaper cutters are mostly change by dissembling the cutter. 
*Low fixed RPM*. The other poster was right, small bits don't like it at 10,000 RPM. 
*Flakey height adjustment*. This may be unique to my particular model. It uses a twist handle to lock and unlock the lift mechanism which rides on a angled cast aluminum ramp. It is tough enough to get the depth and then it changes when you tighten it down.
*Depth adjustment range is less than an inch*. I suspect people who use it as a shaper use spacers to get close and then fine tune somewhat to final depth.
IMHO if you like one trick ponies, go for the shaper. If you want flexibility, the table is the way to do it.

The thing is a Craftsman Router/Shaper, In my opinion is really neither.


Thanks for letting me vent this. It is way to long now, will post what I need and would like in another post.
Cheers


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