# Hammer versus SawStop



## patlaw (Jan 4, 2010)

The sliding table of the Hammer seems like a safe way to move wood past a blade. While its blade will have a seriously detrimental effect on a thumb, I wonder how safe the saw is compared with a SawStop. Wouldn't it be nice to have a Hammer with a SawStop (or Bosch) retracting blade system?


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

It`s even better if you don`t put your thumb where it will get cut off to start with. The level of awareness and forethought necessary to achieve this can also be applied to all other machines which are capable of mutilations and amputations. I am a firm believer that it is better to learn and use proper work procedures than to try and idiot proof everything we touch.


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## patlaw (Jan 4, 2010)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> It's even better if you don't put your thumb where it will get cut off to start with. The level of awareness and forethought necessary to achieve this can also be applied to all other machines which are capable of mutilations and amputations. I am a firm believer that it is better to learn and use proper work procedures than to try and idiot proof everything we touch.


It's hard to argue with you on that. I prefer both.


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## schnewj (Nov 18, 2013)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> It`s even better if you don`t put your thumb where it will get cut off to start with. The level of awareness and forethought necessary to achieve this can also be applied to all other machines which are capable of mutilations and amputations. I am a firm believer that it is better to learn and use proper work procedures than to try and idiot proof everything we touch.


I totally agree that you need to take ultimate responsibility. However, judges and juries seem to think otherwise.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Aside from that, that's a sweet machine!


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## phillip.c (Aug 9, 2012)

The saw stop also has a sliding table option.


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## todd628 (Mar 8, 2015)

you can not compare Hammer vs Saw Stop. Hammer is built to be commercial or high end 
hobby machine. 
I have had my hand in a Table saw and still would not own a Sawstop. I believe they have done
everything they can to create a monopoly with there machine. For that reason only they could not give me a SawStop. I take responsibility for trying something stupid on the table saw and it bit me. I really do not want to have the government tell me SawStop is my only choice in my home shop.
Hammer is a machine built with pretty high standards, you gust need to make sure to turn on your brain when you walk into the shop.

Thanks now my blood pressure is high, Todd


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## Knothead47 (Feb 10, 2010)

Cherryville Chuck has the right idea: don't put your hand or fingers on the blade; don't put your thumb or finger under the face of the hammer, don't draw on an inside straight, etc. Safety is the first thing to be used with any tool. Anything can happen! I heard of a carpenter who was installing steps to a deck. He hit the edge of the nail head, it flipped up and now he has one eye. One would never think a simple task of driving nails and using safety glasses.


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## patlaw (Jan 4, 2010)

Knothead47 said:


> I heard of a carpenter who was installing steps to a deck. He hit the edge of the nail head, it flipped up and now he has one eye. One would never think a simple task of driving nails and using safety glasses.


It happened to me in the third grade. I was in the hospital for a week. Thankfully they were able to minimize the long-term damage.


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## patlaw (Jan 4, 2010)

todd628 said:


> You cannot compare Hammer versus SawStop. Hammer is built to be commercial or high end hobby machine.
> 
> I have had my hand in a Table saw and still would not own a SawStop. I believe they have done everything they can to create a monopoly with their machine. For that reason only, they could not give me a SawStop. I take responsibility for trying something stupid on the table saw, and it bit me. I really do not want to have the government tell me SawStop is my only choice in my home shop.
> 
> ...


A lot of people dislike SawStop for political reasons. That's fine. It's their prerogative. However, if I'm going to buy a table saw, I have to decide (in this example) between a Hammer and a SawStop. Therefore, I have to compare the two. I'm more concerned about my fingers than I am about the marketing practices of the company selling the product. I have not done in depth investigations of the marketing cultures of Hammer, Dewalt, Leigh, Porter Cable, Delta, Sears, Milwaukee, Festool, and all the rest. Who has the time? There's a good chance that there are things about those companies that I wouldn't like. I guess I'd have to do without any power tools if I'm going to impose that sort of litmus test. Nevertheless, I do believe in voting with your feet. If there is something you don't like about a company, go elsewhere. When it matters to me, I do it, too.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Mike I'd love to add Excaliburs sliding fence table to my saw as they have the best system I've seen , but it takes up so much room I don't think I could accommodate it 

I was debating to buy the shorter fence rails to gain some room but I think it would still be to big 

http://www.general.ca/products/2_excalibur/50-SLT60P.html


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

John; that nail ricocheting thing happens a LOT! I've been hit in the face by a flying nail more times than I can remember; glasses, glasses, glasses!


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

todd628 said:


> would not own a Sawstop. I believe they have done everything they can to create a monopoly with there machine. For that reason only they could not give me a SawStop. I take responsibility for trying something stupid on the table saw and it bit me.* I really do not want to have the government tell me SawStop is my only choic*e in my home shop.
> 
> Todd


totally agree...


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

DaninVan said:


> John; that nail ricocheting thing happens a LOT! I've been hit in the face by a flying nail more times than I can remember; glasses, glasses, glasses!


I was reaching in a precarious manner trying to Brad nail a subwoofer enclosure and a 18 gauge Brad ricocheted off the mdf and was stuck between my eyes . Used safety glasses ever since

Never in a million years did I think you could loose an eye using a Brad nailer ?


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## Ray Newman (Mar 9, 2009)

For What It Is Worth.. 

I have a Uni-saw and ‘bout 25+ years ago, installed the small Exactor (or Excalibur??) sliding table. Utilized it for a while, then removed it. Even though it was dead-nuts-on 90 degree and angled cuts, it took up way too much room and it is still in storage. Was a PITA to removed/reinstall the fence. Much later, bought a Fe$tool track saw to cut plyw’d.

I would like to have a hands-on look at the Saw Stop sliding fence on Sawmill Creek, there was some discussion a few months back about some issues with it.

I have often seriously thought ‘bout a Saw Stop or a Hammer K3. Believe the K3 beats the Saw Stop. Have examined the Saw Stop ICS and PCS several times at the local tool supplier. Well-made tool. But after looking at the small Hammer K3 at a 2012 wood show, I have come to the conclusion that it is superior to the Saw Stop. Log onto the Hammer web site and look at the K3 videos. The K3 is what I would define as “a home shop industrial machine.” Also believe that to be really effective and useable, a sliding table should be designed/built into the saw, not an add-on accessory.


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## Ghidrah (Oct 21, 2008)

I completely agree with you Charles, all actions in the shop regardless of the tool must be directed toward safety, however s*** happens. As mentioned by others one of the reasons the construction trade has the highest insurance rates is related to all the crap that happens. Hand nailing and pneumatic, circs and TS, ladders and utility knives let alone falls.

A friend lost a tooth when an 8p with too much galvy ricocheted out from the J. hanger. I got stuck in the leg with a pneumatic roofing nail from a double tap that bounced the 2nd nail off the head of the 1st. Many of the injuries I lived through could have been much worse; I can only attribute the lesser damage to reflexes.

I was helping my cousin reroof a 9 pitch cape, mostly walk able for a experienced roofer. He lost his balance, slid down the roof and off to the ground, immediately stood up with a shard of ply 6" long embedded in his arm between the wrist and elbow. 

A few yrs before that I was on a roofing crew and on an 8 or 9 pitch reroof, (many of the much older capes had shallow pitches). I slid off the roof directly into the ladder which sort of pole vaulted me another 20 something feet into the front yd. 2 more guys on the crew followed me down the roof from laughing so hard they lost their grip.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

how come the ladder wasn't tied off???


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

DaninVan said:


> John; that nail ricocheting thing happens a LOT! I've been hit in the face by a flying nail more times than I can remember; glasses, glasses, glasses!


Many of the new prescription glasses are made with impact proof material, so ask the optician for that kind of material (different brands, different names) for your next pair, that way you have some safety glasses to start with. For a lot of us, prescription glasses are a necessity, and wearing something over conventional glasses is a pain. Be sure to get a frame large enough to cover the whole eye, lid and brow.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Roofing is something I hire out these days. Not steady enough on a slope to safely do that anymore.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Ghidrah said:


> I completely agree with you Charles, all actions in the shop regardless of the tool must be directed toward safety, however s*** happens. As mentioned by others one of the reasons the construction trade has the highest insurance rates is related to all the crap that happens. Hand nailing and pneumatic, circs and TS, ladders and utility knives let alone falls.
> 
> A friend lost a tooth when an 8p with too much galvy ricocheted out from the J. hanger. I got stuck in the leg with a pneumatic roofing nail from a double tap that bounced the 2nd nail off the head of the 1st. Many of the injuries I lived through could have been much worse; I can only attribute the lesser damage to reflexes.
> 
> ...


If WorkSafe BC (used to be the WCB) caught you up on the roof without you being tied off it`s an immediate $3800 fine. I`m not sure what the fine for not having the ladder tied off is. That eliminates the sliding off and the pole vault. They did a blitz of work sites in Vernon years ago to get that point across. Nails are pretty much impossible to protect against but safety glasses will protect your most important asset. I see the odd guy wearing those leg protectors like baseball catchers wear and that probably eliminates a few more injuries. You can`t totally eliminate every risk but you can reduce them considerably with good work practices.


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## patlaw (Jan 4, 2010)

Sort of off-topic, but does anyone here have recommendation for premium safety glasses that will fit over regular wire-frame glasses? I have tri-focals. The cheap ski mask type glasses are scratched after a couple of uses.


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## schnewj (Nov 18, 2013)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> If WorkSafe BC (used to be the WCB) caught you up on the roof without you being tied off it`s an immediate $3800 fine. I`m not sure what the fine for not having the ladder tied off is. That eliminates the sliding off and the pole vault. They did a blitz of work sites in Vernon years ago to get that point across. Nails are pretty much impossible to protect against but safety glasses will protect your most important asset. I see the odd guy wearing those leg protectors like baseball catchers wear and that probably eliminates a few more injuries. You can`t totally eliminate every risk but you can reduce them considerably with good work practices.


Chuck, 

I was a safety professional for Lockheed Martin for many years. I worked the External Tank build for the space shuttle. We had a pretty pro active program, resulting is as much as 13,000,000 man-hours ( yes 13M) without a lost time accident.

Most of the guy that worked the program had been there for decades. Some came right out of high school. 

I used to go into a safety meeting and I would ask one simple question. "How many here wore hearing protection twenty years ago when you did yard work?" A couple would raise their hands. "OK, how about eye protection, again, one or two would raise their hands. "What about now? Who wears hearing protection?" Everyone would raise their hands! "Eye protection?" Again, all of the hands went up.

Point being, we instilled a culture in them at work to wear their safety equipment and it bled over into their personal lives. It became a second nature with them.

I had a machinist who ran an OSHA inspector right out of the machine shop area. She got right up in his face and told him to leave. When he asked if she knew who he was, she replied she "I don't give a rats ass who you are, get out of the shop or put on your safety glasses." This thoroughly impressed the OSHA inspector and got the employee a safety award from me.

I still shake my head every time I hear of someone being thrown from a car, during an accident, because then were not wearing a seat belt. This should be second nature, and why would you not? However, some people are just totally resistant for taking responsibility for their own safety.

No one should ever have the attitude, that, "it will never happen to me!" It can and will if you are not at the top of your game. The problem is, no one is 100% all of the time.


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## schnewj (Nov 18, 2013)

patlaw said:


> Sort of off-topic, but does anyone here have recommendation for premium safety glasses that will fit over regular wire-frame glasses? I have tri-focals. The cheap ski mask type glasses are scratched after a couple of uses.


Mike,

I too wear glasses. I use safety glasses that fit over my prescription glasses. The problem is that the optical clarity is not that great and they will eventually get scratched. 

The best, most durable, are true glass safety glasses. However, they can be extremely expensive for some reason that is beyond me.

The good news is that good quality plastic ones can be had for as little as $5 and I keep several around. If they get bad I just toss them.

PM me and I will do some research for you. There are several mail order safety supply places that have much higher quality equipment then you will find in the big box stores.

Bill


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

schnewj said:


> Chuck,
> 
> I was a safety professional for Lockheed Martin for many years. I worked the External Tank build for the space shuttle. We had a pretty pro active program, resulting is as much as 13,000,000 man-hours ( yes 13M) without a lost time accident.
> 
> ...


Great story Bill . What amazes me is in some states they don't have to wear motorcycle helmets . That's just asking for trouble IMO . When someone cracks there head open in an accident I don't feel any pity for them.
We had a female here riding on a quad when they were camping . She told her husband that she wasn't going to wear a helmet because she was going slow and not venturing far .
Well a storm had started and she booted it back to camp to get out of the rain when unfortunately she hit a berm on the side of the road tipping the quad . 
She fell off hitting her head on a rock and died instantly . Something that could have been avoided had she worn a helmet


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## Garyk (Dec 29, 2011)

I nipped the end of a finger on a Delta cabinet saw. Everything was by the book but I still got nipped. After I returned from the ER I unplugged the saw and did repeated dry runs trying to determine what went wrong. I still don't know how I managed to get cut. Sometimes an accident is just what the name implies. I know some will second guess this issue because I have been doing the same thing myself for many years. And yes, I have read all of the books on the correct way to use the saw. Still don't know.


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## schnewj (Nov 18, 2013)

Garyk said:


> I nipped the end of a finger on a Delta cabinet saw. Everything was by the book but I still got nipped. After I returned from the ER I unplugged the saw and did repeated dry runs trying to determine what went wrong. I still don't know how I managed to get cut. Sometimes an accident is just what the name implies. I know some will second guess this issue because I have been doing the same thing myself for many years. And yes, I have read all of the books on the correct way to use the saw. Still don't know.


Gary,

I guarantee that you did something out of the norm. Something you did was different. You just don't remember that it was different.

Witnesses are notoriously unreliable. As an investigator doing accident investigations, I could ask 6 witnesses what happened and get six different stories. Every one will swear that what they said, is what happened. This includes the involved party.

Everybody's perception is different, not necessarily wrong, just different.

Familiarity breeds contempt. One little slip and it's gone south. This is why it is so important to pay attention at ALL times.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

patlaw said:


> Sort of off-topic, but does anyone here have recommendation for premium safety glasses that will fit over regular wire-frame glasses? I have tri-focals. The cheap ski mask type glasses are scratched after a couple of uses.


this style work well and are comfortable...

Medical/Dental Frames | Paramount Optical


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

@schnewj..
excellent posting..
don't ever stop...


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

*Aye, Matey*

I _like_ 'em! :nerd:


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## woodknots (Mar 7, 2012)

@schnewj

Bill - absolutely correct. We do things out of habit, or second nature, or call it whatever.... but in the end, we don't see it because we don't think about it.

Ever make a mathematical mistake? When we review our work, we don't see the mistake because we keep making the same mistake. A second pair of eyes finds the error easily because they aren't biased by pre-conceived ideas.

So yes, we don't think we did something wrong because we are on auto pilot.


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## schnewj (Nov 18, 2013)

Stick486 said:


> this style work well and are comfortable...
> 
> Medical/Dental Frames | Paramount Optical


These are very similar to the Uvex glasses that I use. You can get em in clear, gray, yellow, green tints. I use the yellow ones when I shoot, and they are perfect to wear at night especially if it is raining. The yellow gathers light and brightens everything so it is sharper and cuts glare. At night it will block out the rain like it isn't ever there.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

What I need is safety reading glasses . I wear 2.0 reading glasses and operate my a TS etc with them on often . Not a great amount of protection compared to actual safety glasses . I think there available though


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

RainMan1 said:


> What I need is safety reading glasses . I wear 2.0 reading glasses and operate my a TS etc with them on often . Not a great amount of protection compared to actual safety glasses . I think there available though



I use these at work: 

EDGE EYEWEAR Safety Glasses,Clear 2.0,Scrtch-Rsstnt - Reader Eyewear - 38Y434|DZ111-2.0 - Grainger Industrial Supply


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## paduke (Mar 28, 2010)

For us po' folks with limited budgets TS sleds are a great safety feature.


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## schnewj (Nov 18, 2013)

RainMan1 said:


> What I need is safety reading glasses . I wear 2.0 reading glasses and operate my a TS etc with them on often . Not a great amount of protection compared to actual safety glasses . I think there available though


Fairly common now. Bill gave you a link to Granger, but they can be found at most well stocked safety equipment suppliers. Most are less then $5-10 USD.


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

Grainger can be a bit of a stick in the mud when it comes to dealing with over the counter sales. I deal with em commercially and "get away" with using the accounts I have access to. Depending on the counter person, John Q. Public might not be able to walk in off the street and buy something. Last couple of years I've pretty much ordered everything online, so this may have changed? If it hasn't they are missing out on a great sales opportunity...


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## Artemix (Aug 10, 2014)

I started woodworking around a year ago, and I am always very cautious about where are my hands, and what I noticed lately, how is the rest of my body placed in case of a kick back.

I use a miter saw for short cuts, and the TS with a knife for long cuts.
Never had a near-death-of-a-finger-experience .


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

TwoSkies57 said:


> I use these at work:
> 
> EDGE EYEWEAR Safety Glasses,Clear 2.0,Scrtch-Rsstnt - Reader Eyewear - 38Y434|DZ111-2.0 - Grainger Industrial Supply


Thanks Bill , we have an Ackands here . would be sweet if they stocked them


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## Ghidrah (Oct 21, 2008)

Stick,
Back in the 70s no one tied ladders off to a house if it was 1 floor. Back then half the time to get to ground 1st, guys would slide to the gutter, grab it with one hand and drop off to the ground. One time shortly after the event I wondered what might of happened if the ladder had been tied off, I could also have been flipped by momentum and landed on my neck as opposed to hitting and rolling out of it. 20 somethings use "lookit me" more often than "I wonder what the odds are for something horrible to happen".

Tom,
Around the last 10 yrs of my "active" career I got many reroof and sidewall jobs from guys not wanting to climb, hire assistants or exert themselves roofing. For me it kept me in better shape than my contemporaries. 

Charles, 
If there was a WBC or Osha in the US back in the 70s they hid from everyone. The 1st time I recall hearing about Osha was in the early to mid 80s, shortly after someone on an aluminum ladder touched an electrical line by hand or with the ladder out at WHOI, he got charred a bit and tossed a couple 10 yrds. There're many workarounds for roofing and sidewall. You don't need to be tethered if you have a staging backstop. I've had aluminum pumps since 97, while I didn't buy into the plank syst, I preferred doubled up RS 16'X2X12s. Many guys modified the jacks with brackets for 2X4 railing. The only time I used a harness is for big 3 story buildings where if one took a roll the safety net likely wouldn't stop a 200lb floppy object traveling at 10 to 15 mph. Lastly any roofer not setting staging up a roof with a pitch over 7 deserves what he gets regardless of harness and backstop. Not sure what you mean about leg protectors but I have knee pads for knees and shingle protection, spend a summer day on a roof on your knees and tell me pads aren't worth it.

Here's the thing most of us don't consider the threat because it's always the other idiot. When it happens and you survive it in one piece, only a fool says or thinks "AGAIN"! A rational person thinks, OK seat belt or glasses or hearing protection. In 4 yrs of service to Uncle Sam one snipe wore hearing protection and it was because he bought his own. I'm sure as I can be most of my hearing loss is due to the damage incurred from engine rooms and the firing range, the rest from head trauma.


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## JFPNCM (Dec 13, 2009)

In the mid-60s I worked on 3 different projects (2 dams, 1 bridge) managed by the Bureau of Reclamation and every Monday morning started with a safety review meeting. The Red Hats also had total control over job safety and if they didn't like your approach you received only 1 warning. Management backed them 100% and the jobs were always safe. No lost man days in 3 years unless you count the guys that were fired on the spot.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

These ones are the ones I wear over my glasses at work. I wear the widest eyeglass frames made and these still fit comfortably over them and they are cheap. North Norton 180 Clear Safety Glasses (10-pack) - T18000
I get mine at Acklands-Grainger.


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## RÖENTGEEP (Feb 18, 2014)

Stick486 said:


> this style work well and are comfortable...
> 
> Medical/Dental Frames | Paramount Optical


Frames not necessarily for the impact-resistance of factory work, but for the coverage and eye-protection to guard against chemical splash. :surprise:


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## RÖENTGEEP (Feb 18, 2014)

schnewj said:


> These are very similar to the *Uvex glasses* that I use. You can get em in clear, gray, yellow, green tints. I use the yellow ones when I shoot, and they are perfect to wear at night especially if it is raining. The yellow gathers light and brightens everything so it is sharper and cuts glare. At night it will block out the rain like it isn't ever there.


Wow ! the military ballistic impact are impressive :wink: The others are amazing. Best choice this safety glasses IMHO.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

RÖENTGEEP said:


> Wow ! the military ballistic impact are impressive :wink: The others are amazing. Best choice this safety glasses IMHO.


I wish transparent aluminum would come down in price as it would make for practically bullet proof eye wear .


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