# Building Without Plans.....



## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

I'm one of those folks that build without plans. I have to wonder if I am in the majority or manority. 

It seems that doing my projects the way I do is a little bit like playing chess, you can easily trip yourself if you really look several movea ahead, but this is the challenge for the most part and very satisfying when things work out, but I admit that I have undo and redo a lot, is this kinda normal for some of you members?

Jerry


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## MT Stringer (Aug 15, 2012)

I can't seem to follow someone else's plans. I also don't trust them. After all, just what is a 3/4 inch board anyway? 

It seems I use plans for inspiration more than anything and almost inevitably, decide to alter some part of the plan to fit my needs.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

I prefer to make a drawing. You can avoid a lot of surprises that way. Plus you can make a cut list from the drawing.


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

Jerry Bowen said:


> I'm one of those folks that build without plans. I have to wonder if I am in the majority or manority.
> 
> It seems that doing my projects the way I do is a little bit like playing chess, you can easily trip yourself if you really look several movea ahead, but this is the challenge for the most part and very satisfying when things work out, but I admit that I have undo and redo a lot, is this kinda normal for some of you members?
> 
> Jerry


Almost EVRYONE builds with plans, whether the plans are on paper, or in their head. I did say 'almost'. At times I go into the shop and start making something - I have an idea of what I want, not a clue how to do it, and just start; from then on it's usually kind of a blank, and when I finish I most often can't tell you how I made it, but it is just what I wanted. Zen woodworking I call it. Probably more often the plans are in my head. At times I do put things on paper, sometimes just a rough sketch, sometimes quite detailed, with measurements or not. I have been known to work from other people's plans, but I don't consider them plans usually, just guidelines. There have been a few occasions when I have closely followed someone elses plans, but usually make I changes as I go along.

Undo and redo my work? I would say not. I might mod it a bit, I might trash it and start over, but undo it?, I don't know if I have ever done that. I suppose part of that at least is that if I don't have confidence in how to do something, I will try it first with scrap, or cheap, wood, saving the good wood for when I know I can do it. And I am definitely not afraid to trash something and start over.


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

I should have said working with written plans on paper. I must admit that I do a lot of planning in my head before and doing the the project so to say that I don't work from plans in that respect is not true. Hadn't thought about it that way I guess. So maybe the question posed should have been, do most member work from written plans on paper that somebody else designed or not. I suspect that few woodworkers do so, but I certainly could be wrong, just wondered.

Jerry


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

I don't tend to work from someone else's plans, because then I would be making what 'they' think I want/need. And 99.999% of the time, they're wrong.


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Like Charles. I draw up my own.

Even if I get blueprints or someone else's drawing, I see what I have onhand, make what ever changes there is needed to that and make my notes and adjustments to those.

I can make those changes and adjustments in my head or as I go... or at least I used to more often in the past, but it's safer for me now if I have it all in front me.


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## papawd (Jan 5, 2011)

I get ideas from my crazy head or pictures given to me by someone asking "can You make this"?? then its off to drawing and freewheeling which gives You a great feeling when it is done


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## IC31 (Nov 16, 2012)

On many things, I just put a rough sketch on paper if for no other reason then to make sure the dimensions make sense. As far as building to someone elses - seldom follow them ..... but I do find that when I make a dimensional change, either wood thickness or otherwise, every other dimension usually changes a like amount, more or less, and firewood happens if not caught.


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## OutoftheWoodwork (Oct 4, 2012)

I use plans as a guide usually, Jerry. Never fails; when I use the actual pattern the way it's printed, it doesn't come out the same as the pattern. (My collapsible miter saw table is a perfect example.) The supports came out so big I had to almost cut it in half to use. Once modified, it worked out great, as it's up on the walls and works perfectly.

Barb


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## neville9999 (Jul 22, 2010)

Jerry one of the set out items that is very handy and not that hard to do is a 'Rod' if you are going to make an item that is 5 feet long then any strip of wood or ply that is just a bit longer will do, you set out your item along the rod with all the critical parts shown, on the Rod it is just lines but these lines are a permanent record as to the where and how it all fits together, you can also directly transfer dimensions onto your work straight off the Rod, having a Rod for your work will also let you reproduce it exactly so when the job is done then hang the rod on a hook, A Rod can also be used as a full sized set out of a shaped part, and you can set out other important parts on the back of the Rod. I do sometimes work without plans, if the item is straight forward and it does not have doors or drawers but in all work that is more detailed then at the least then I take the time to set out a Rod. NGM


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## JimArnold (Mar 13, 2011)

Having to work with specs a lot, I find it very relaxing when I get to a project where I can just think it, draw it right on the wood, and go. Working from someone else plans is a pain. Using O.P. Plans as guidelines is one thing, trying to match line for line is completely different.


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## OPG3 (Jan 9, 2011)

Jerry, I am blessed in having experience in drafting that dates-back to 1968, when I was only 15 years of age. My Dad was an Engineer (Civil/Structural) and he taught my brother and me how to draw things proportional and in a variety of views.

I quickly recognize that many people do not have a drafting program on their computer or honed skills for manual drafting (how I learned and worked prior to 1988). Every one of those people have skills that I do not have! Several items that are easily acquired for most of us are mechanical pencil(s), plastic drafting triangles (often sold in grocery or office supply stores), GRAPH PAPER and a scale (often not required with graph paper). Drawings are referred to as *Plan(s)* - which is an item as it would appear from above; *Elevations* are as the same item looked at from the side - a simple house has front, sides and a rear elevation; *Sections* are a look at something showing its internal "workings" - think of a log that has been cross cut with a chain saw, a "section" is where you would see the rings of the tree; and *Details* are enlargements done at an increased scale which show items of concern which need that larger size. Many people refer to anything that is not a Plan or Elevation as a "section" or a "detail", which is okay, but for people that do this type of work and converse blindly (such as telephone) on the attributes of a project it is best to understand what the other party is referring to by using this nomenclature.

In some stores, one can find _isometric drafting paper _(usually it is on 8.5 x 11 pads). An *Isometric Drawing* is different from the aforementioned [orthogonal] views in that it shows perspective - whereas features of both plans and elevations (and sometimes with details) are included. Creation of Isometric Views is greatly enhanced with "3d drawings" - which enable rotations with respect to point of origin. If someone draws an isometric - it is only of value from that unique point of view and no information from additional angles. Conversely, drawings produced on a computer using 3d software and skill set can be viewed from numerous (unlimited) perspectives!

Examples are as follows (using a table as you have recently built). The Plan View is going to show the top - complete with dimensions. For the four-sided table, there will be 4- respective Elevation Views; a front, a left side, a rear and a right side. On tables, it is not rare for the front and rear elevations to appear the same, and; often the left and right sides will be similar or the same. If, for instance; there is one drawer in this example table - then the Front Elevation will show the drawer front and the Rear Elevation does not show this drawer. The Side Elevations will differ (if the drawer front is visible from the side) in that the drawer will appear on the left on one side elevation and on the right on the opposite side elevation. A Section of this table with a drawer could be "cut or taken" from the plan or the Elevations - or both! Now let's say the drawer has some intricate joinery, then that joinery information can be included in a Detail - which could be a Plan Detail, an Elevational Detail or a Sectional Detail. Also, as the names describe and apply; there often are Sectional Plans, etc.

If you wish to have some isometric drafting paper, I have a blank that I am glad to post as a .pdf file for you to print as you need copies for your own use.

Personally, it is very rare for me to build something (of any complexity) without drawings. As my wise friend Neville has mentioned, I also make "rods" once I am in my shop. I use the drawings (as outlined above) to create the "rod". We most often refer to the "rods" as a "story stick", because they "tell the story" of what you are building. We usually use "Sharpies" and mark differing features with different colors!

I hope this helps, and please let me know if the Isometric Drawing Paper file could be helpful! I have a couple of meetings today and we're working on a tight deadline, so it might be tomorrow before I can do this. 

Take care my friend, Otis Guillebeau from Auburn, Georgia


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## MikeMa (Jul 27, 2006)

A few years ago, I started using Sketch Up. This completely change the way I woodworker, and has allowed me to take on far more complex projects with much higher degree of success. Nearly every project I take on, I draw up in Sketch Up, and I do put in all the joinery I plan on using, essentially building the project in Sketch Up just as I would in the shop. This has actually saved me a time or two from making something that would have been next to impossible to assemble. As a result, I have had far less waste, and has given me the ability to push myself harder as a woodworker.

That said, the plan is still a guideline. Just about every project I have drawn up and gone on to make I have made changes along the way. Still, having the Sketch Up of my project allows me to make the changes successfully.


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

OPG3 said:


> Jerry, I am blessed in having experience in drafting that dates-back to 1968, when I was only 15 years of age. My Dad was an Engineer (Civil/Structural) and he taught my brother and me how to draw things proportional and in a variety of views.
> 
> I quickly recognize that many people do not have a drafting program on their computer or honed skills for manual drafting (how I learned and worked prior to 1988). Every one of those people have skills that I do not have! Several items that are easily acquired for most of us are mechanical pencil(s), plastic drafting triangles (often sold in grocery or office supply stores), GRAPH PAPER and a scale (often not required with graph paper). Drawings are referred to as *Plan(s)* - which is an item as it would appear from above; *Elevations* are as the same item looked at from the side - a simple house has front, sides and a rear elevation; *Sections* are a look at something showing its internal "workings" - think of a log that has been cross cut with a chain saw, a "section" is where you would see the rings of the tree; and *Details* are enlargements done at an increased scale which show items of concern which need that larger size. Many people refer to anything that is not a Plan or Elevation as a "section" or a "detail", which is okay, but for people that do this type of work and converse blindly (such as telephone) on the attributes of a project it is best to understand what the other party is referring to by using this nomenclature.
> 
> ...


My Goodness Otis, you and Neville live in a completely differenct world than I do. I did take mechanical drawing in High School. The only place I sort of used it was to eo well on a aptitude test when I went into the Army. I do well with visualization and use this skill in ALL of my woodworking activities. As you know by now, I am very critical of my cuts, but I am not versed in the subjects that you and Neville have. I do not begin to understand what Neville is talking about when he explains the "Rod"". I don't know, but I suspect that you two are the exception in regard to your approach and expertise, but, and this is the biggy, maybe I am the exception. 

When I build an item for example, I visualize the entire project in my mind, every single part and it fits into the rest of the project. I do not pre-conceive the exact dimentions, just estimate them until I start on the project. For example, let's say that the project is a small table. The first thing I do is to create a set of legs all the same length of course but the length is not critical, about 24", but all exactly the same length of course. In my limited experience I only make square legs so part of the construction is just to be certain they are square and each of the four sides are the same width, again the exact width is not critical, they can be from an inch to .800 ". The purpose of the legs having to be square and all four sides equal in width is that when I go go cut the mortises in the ends of the legs, I want to set the fence on the router table to be such that the quarter inch wide slots will be dead center on both faces of the each leg that the tenon on the cross reals will fit in and be centered.. I'm talking of course of the cut that the tenon on the cross reils will fit into. These tenons are cut to the router table be setting the height of the bit so that after making a pass on one end and flipplng the part over and making the same pass on the other side that the resulting tenon is the correct thickness to fit into the mortise cuts on the ends of the legs, I just sneak up on the height setting of the bit until the fit is the way I want it be. When all the cuts are made the four legs and four cross rails will be approximately the size that I invision the table to be, these dimentions, again, are not criticlal since the finished table is unique by design. Once the legs and rails are fitted together the cuts for a lower shelf and/or the top become critical just because they have to fit and/or match the legs and rails. At this point I estimate what the length of a cut needs to be and set up either the sled with the miter gauge and fence mounted on the Express Sled for a cross cut, or the TS fence for a rip cut, but I use witness sticks and sneak up on the cut until the set up is correct and then cut the part that is going to fit into the project. 

I bet that this just drives you and Neville nuts reading this, I'm just not as sophisticated as you guys, but, and here is the important point, I bet that I enjoy my work and my mothods as much as anybody else and to me that's the bottom line. Does everybody agree with that, hope so and if not, please enlighten me.

Jerry 



\


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Not having a plan, is that the same as being clueless???


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## mgmine (Jan 16, 2012)

I build from pictures, plans are too confusing!


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## OPG3 (Jan 9, 2011)

*Isometric Grid Sheets*

Jerry, I think what you are doing works great for you and thousands of other wood workers. Our answers were answering your initial question rather than suggesting a "better way". Years back highly skilled craftsmen and craftswomen built everything without drawings or even tape measures. I think for each of us we have methods that work best for us; and for others of us - we choose to see what other methods are being used - so we can make comparisons or "hybridizations".

If one chooses to make drawings, there are several approaches. If the method chosen includes manually created pencil drawings, something that is sometimes helpful to some people; attached herein are some isometric grid sheets. These can be printed on 8.5 x 11 page size lightly - so that the user may use a (heavier) pencil, pen, marker, etc. to sketch-in their project!

My answers to you were also for whomever may have been following your original thread. Some of that info is "old hat" to many of us, but potentially helpful to some others. Jerry, in case you haven't noticed your threads receive lots of readers.

Take care, Otis


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

mgmine said:


> I build from pictures, plans are too confusing!


Everybody's brain processes information in different ways and everyone learns to do that in the way that works best for them. Many people, my wife included, can't interpret a road map. When I worked for the forest service we found out at the public meetings we had that lots of people couldn't interpret a topographical map even if they could read a road map. It is probably that diversity in our brains that accounts for why there are usually many ways to get a job done. We don't all "see" the same solution.

I find a drawing works best for me because if I'm trying to focus on the job in front of me and I'm trying to work the details out in my head at the same time, I WILL make mistakes. I also find that if I'm not worried about the details I can focus on the doing the job less distracted which means safer for me.


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> Everybody's brain processes information in different ways and everyone learns to do that in the way that works best for them. Many people, my wife included, can't interpret a road map. When I worked for the forest service we found out at the public meetings we had that lots of people couldn't interpret a topographical map even if they could read a road map. It is probably that diversity in our brains that accounts for why there are usually many ways to get a job done. We don't all "see" the same solution.
> 
> I find a drawing works best for me because if I'm trying to focus on the job in front of me and I'm trying to work the details out in my head at the same time, I WILL make mistakes. I also find that if I'm not worried about the details I can focus on the doing the job less distracted which means safer for me.


I usually sketch or draw mine out... Having said that- 

Otis, I've used AutoCAD in the past and gotten by... But boy do I feel lost and adept at trying to use Sketchup. It's really been embarrassing and humbling!!!


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## Gaffboat (Mar 11, 2012)

Jerry, I find my ideas are often too fleeting to keep in my head so I have to jot them down in my sketch book as I think about a project. Sometimes it's just a simple sketch so I don't forget a detail for the project. The notes give me a record of what I was thinking if I have to come back to a project after setting it aside for any period of time. Like you, I do a lot of designing in my head but it does help to take notes of the internal conversation between those voices in my head.:sarcastic:


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

Gaffboat said:


> Jerry, I find my ideas are often too fleeting to keep in my head so I have to jot them down in my sketch book as I think about a project. Sometimes it's just a simple sketch so I don't forget a detail for the project. The notes give me a record of what I was thinking if I have to come back to a project after setting it aside for any period of time. Like you, I do a lot of designing in my head but it does help to take notes of the internal conversation between those voices in my head.:sarcastic:


Oliver,
Your projects are probably much more detailed and complex than mine are. My simple project are such that I don't really need notes. I probably spend as much or more time planning my projects in my head than I do actually in the shop making sawdust.

Jerry


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

Stick486 said:


> Not having a plan, is that the same as being clueless???


Stick,
I think you got it right and it's a good description of where I am a lot of the time when it comes to understanding some of the things the members of this forum are talking about a lot of the time.

Jerry


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## MT Stringer (Aug 15, 2012)

Funny thing is when I figure out things in my head, the pieces always fit!  Not so when it comes time to make the cuts. :-(

I cut it twice and it was still too short!


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

MAFoElffen said:


> I usually sketch or draw mine out... Having said that-
> 
> Otis, I've used AutoCAD in the past and gotten by... But boy do I feel lost and adept at trying to use Sketchup. It's really been embarrassing and humbling!!!


I have a CAD program that I use that runs on Windows 3.1 that I really like using and I've kept a computer that will run it. I even kept a 9 pin dot printer to go with it. It will print something like a table leg on fanfold paper in one pass exactly to scale which makes it handy for patterns. I have a newer Turbo Cad that I mange somewhat with that will run on current operating systems. I've downloaded Sketchup but I don't even seem to be able to get started with it.

The newer technology went downhill for me when they quit printing paper manuals.


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## ksidwy (Jul 13, 2013)

i have to draw them. the picture helps me to go forward.


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

_ I responded to your earlier post..._

http://www.routerforums.com/lobby/41144-plan-not-plan.html

I apologize, if I am getting the two confused.


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## Bradleytavares (Feb 25, 2012)

I always build from plans that I draft. When possible, I draw in full size by using a roll of 40" banner paper from the local office supply. Way back when I was a 'cub' in this business, a superintendent that was also the apprentice instructor told me that I'd learn to draw my project before building it. I thought he was all wet but as time went on I saw the benefit of his experience. Now days, anything more than a simple cabinet or small job always has full sized drawings.


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## Willway (Aug 16, 2012)

Any of us that have ever worked in any skilled trade know that Plans are like blueprints, you need 2 sets. One 'as specced set' and one 'as built set'. The only one that ever gets reused is the 'as built' set, so you can work on, or repeat that project exactly. Some of us don't need the first set, but we should take time to draw out that 'as built' set to reuse or pass on to whoever follows you in your craft, in my case that would be my sons. That reminds me every man that is getting older should make an honest effort to pass on his craft to someone honestly interested in learning a craft. A lot of that occurs on this forum, in an impersonal way, and I know that helps some, but nothing beats hands on experience.


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## MartinW (Jun 26, 2013)

I am somewhat like Oliver wrote.
Since my bread'n'butter job in computers is taking most of my time, I need to jot down at least some of the "conversation of the voices in my head".  (I really like the wording, Oliver) These voices usually talk usually at the most unrelated point of time, so it's a collection of small note papers which might base a project.
I usually don't use anybodies elses plans to follow, however take them into consideration and input for my own ideas. These are only resulting in sketches of some more complicated details, the rest is calculated on the fly, "in head".
I'd dearly like to use Sketchup, as I like the possibilities of that program - alas, unless there is a version for Linux, I'm so far resorting to LibreOffice Draw for sometimes necessary sketches.

Martin


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

MartinW said:


> I am somewhat like Oliver wrote.
> Since my bread'n'butter job in computers is taking most of my time, I need to jot down at least some of the "conversation of the voices in my head".  (I really like the wording, Oliver) These voices usually talk usually at the most unrelated point of time, so it's a collection of small note papers which might base a project.
> I usually don't use anybodies elses plans to follow, however take them into consideration and input for my own ideas. These are only resulting in sketches of some more complicated details, the rest is calculated on the fly, "in head".
> I'd dearly like to use Sketchup, as I like the possibilities of that program - alas, unless there is a version for Linux, I'm so far resorting to LibreOffice Draw for sometimes necessary sketches.
> ...


Martin and other members that are following this thread, part of the issue that pertains with me in regard to my approach to my work is that my vision is such that I can't use computer programs or see well enough anymore to even write a check or read a book anymore. I have to use a magnifying glass to even read a tape measure or to set the scale on the saw. I'm not complaining, just explaining why what I do works for me due to my handicap. I had lasic surgery sevral years ago and did not get my close vision back. I have always had problems with bright light. I can't see a computer screen if the screen is white with black letters. So, I have a black screen with white letters and I see the screen really well. When I am in the shop early in the morning or late at night with the light is subdued I am just so much more comfortable in that I can see so much better. Once again, I am not complaining, just wanting to let members know why some of the things that I deal with have a reason that you might need to know in ordet to understand where I am coming from.

Jerry


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## berry (Oct 17, 2005)

I'm not a professional woodworker and maybe that's important? I build from plans in wood working magazines, often modifying them to accomodate my needs/resources on hand. Sometimes I make plans using SketchUp. Sometimes I draw them the old way. But I use some kind of plan nearly all the time. 

The plans seem especially important so that I allow stock for the joinery.

Worse (or better?) I keep a log of projects I've done. Where the wood came from, where I got the plans or idea for a project. The finishing schedule. Issues I had and how I solved them. Modifications I made if the plan came from a publication. When I started and when it was completed. Jeez how anal can a person get?


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## MartinW (Jun 26, 2013)

Jerry,

just sent you a PM

Martin


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

berry said:


> Worse (or better?) I keep a log of projects I've done. Where the wood came from, where I got the plans or idea for a project. The finishing schedule. Issues I had and how I solved them. Modifications I made if the plan came from a publication. When I started and when it was completed. Jeez how anal can a person get?


I keep meaning to do that, maybe take a few pictures showing how I solved some of the problems. I often come across problems that I know I've solved before on other projects and then realize that I have no idea how I did it.

I think that makes you way better organized than most of are.


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

For what it's worth, a number of years ago I knew of several people who worked only from plans. And they didn't modify the plans, followed them precisely. right down to the end. The interesting part is, those people were skilled enough that they could have drawn out their own plans, in detail, including cut lists. But they didn't choose to. For whatever reason, they preferred using someone elses plans. It's just a case of different strokes for different forks.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

JOAT said:


> For what it's worth, a number of years ago I knew of several people who worked only from plans. And they didn't modify the plans, followed them precisely. right down to the end. The interesting part is, those people were skilled enough that they could have drawn out their own plans, in detail, including cut lists. But they didn't choose to. For whatever reason, they preferred using someone elses plans. It's just a case of different strokes for different forks.



That's not what you wanted??? Well that's what you ordered.... Now pay me...


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## MikeMa (Jul 27, 2006)

If I were working on a commission for someone (I haven't yet, FWIW) whether I made the drawing myself in sketch-up or used an already made plan, once my customer signed off on it, I would follow the plan as closely as possible, and any deviations would be discussed and signed off on as I went. This is the only way to protect myself if the customer does indeed come back and say "This isn't what I wanted!!" I suspect those that have followed the plans precisely may have been in similar situations. Also, some find it a challenge to try to closely reproduce that work as well.

For me, and a big reason why I haven't taken on any paid work yet, I enjoy making a project my own. I do draw up in sketch-up just about every project I take on, but just about every project I take on, I make changes as I go.


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## oldwoodenshoe (Nov 28, 2011)

As an engineer, I like to have things done on paper before I get into the shop and start working on a project. I use AutoCad to do my layouts and final parts drawings. This prevents a lot of mistakes. That being said, when I finally do get in the shop and start working on a project, I find myself making some on-the-fly changes/improvements. When this happens, I only update the CAD drawings if I plan to make more of the product in the future. It just doesn't seem necessary to update the old drawings at the time. However, this almost always ends up costing me, because it seems like someone always wants what I just finished and now my documentation is out of date.


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

Stick486 said:


> That's not what you wanted??? Well that's what you ordered.... Now pay me...


My favorite has always been, "I know that's what I said, but that's not what I meant." Used to get a lot of that when I finished a project, then had to redo it all.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Another good reason for a plan Theo. Like Mike posted, if the customer sees it and signs off on it then unless you changed it that's what he gets and pays for.


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## neville9999 (Jul 22, 2010)

Jerry Bowen said:


> My Goodness Otis, you and Neville live in a completely differenct world than I do. I did take mechanical drawing in High School. The only place I sort of used it was to eo well on a aptitude test when I went into the Army. I do well with visualization and use this skill in ALL of my woodworking activities. As you know by now, I am very critical of my cuts, but I am not versed in the subjects that you and Neville have. I do not begin to understand what Neville is talking about when he explains the "Rod"". I don't know, but I suspect that you two are the exception in regard to your approach and expertise, but, and this is the biggy, maybe I am the exception.
> 
> When I build an item for example, I visualize the entire project in my mind, every single part and it fits into the rest of the project. I do not pre-conceive the exact dimentions, just estimate them until I start on the project. For example, let's say that the project is a small table. The first thing I do is to create a set of legs all the same length of course but the length is not critical, about 24", but all exactly the same length of course. In my limited experience I only make square legs so part of the construction is just to be certain they are square and each of the four sides are the same width, again the exact width is not critical, they can be from an inch to .800 ". The purpose of the legs having to be square and all four sides equal in width is that when I go go cut the mortises in the ends of the legs, I want to set the fence on the router table to be such that the quarter inch wide slots will be dead center on both faces of the each leg that the tenon on the cross reals will fit in and be centered.. I'm talking of course of the cut that the tenon on the cross reils will fit into. These tenons are cut to the router table be setting the height of the bit so that after making a pass on one end and flipplng the part over and making the same pass on the other side that the resulting tenon is the correct thickness to fit into the mortise cuts on the ends of the legs, I just sneak up on the height setting of the bit until the fit is the way I want it be. When all the cuts are made the four legs and four cross rails will be approximately the size that I invision the table to be, these dimentions, again, are not criticlal since the finished table is unique by design. Once the legs and rails are fitted together the cuts for a lower shelf and/or the top become critical just because they have to fit and/or match the legs and rails. At this point I estimate what the length of a cut needs to be and set up either the sled with the miter gauge and fence mounted on the Express Sled for a cross cut, or the TS fence for a rip cut, but I use witness sticks and sneak up on the cut until the set up is correct and then cut the part that is going to fit into the project.
> 
> ...


Jerry another way you can think about a 'Rod' is that it is a full sized or 1:1 scale set out of the width of a cabinet, being full sized then the ply or wood used for the rod has to be longer than the unit is wide, setting out the depth and the height can be done on the back of the 'rod', the ply used for the rod can be a strip of ply as small as 40 or 50mm so always keep strips of ply like that as they don't take up much space and a full sized set out can be done along them, you will find that once you start to do full sized set outs like this then you will do them all the time, I am not saying that there is no room in Cabinet construction for flying by the seat of your pants, be care free in how it finally looks but as a Professional then I cannot do that, someone else said that a drawing that gets signed off on has to be done as the customer as well as you then know what is being built and what is being paid for, that is correct, as a good example I once built a fitted kitchen for a lunatic who said when it was installed that she though that the depth of the top would have been 70cm deep, only refereeing to the signed drawing made that problem go away, when you are making units for the public, units that you expect to be paid for, then only then will you see the importance of having a record of what has been quoted, I did not suggest that you use a 'Rod' for that reason, I did it because it is a far more professional way to go about making something, try it and you will agree but you may also start *****ing to yourself that the damn thing is smaller or bigger than the rod so how did that go wrong! Being accurate and making to to a plan is being professional. Neville


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Well said Neville. And even being signed, If a customer wanted a change, each change order cost the customer.

Jerry-
But even more basic than that- Back in school (too many years ago), I never thought I would have to use math again... Until I became a Carpenter and had to remember all that again. LOL. Some of the biggest differences between working as a Finish Carpenter and as a Master Carpenter was that with that position of responsibility came a whole lot of paperwork.

There is a lot of math in woodworking, in whatever you do. Yes, there is some freestyle and winging it, but when you start getting more than two pieces together to make something, then you start having to plan ahead. I used to be able to keep all that in my head, but when it started adding in multiple orders or multiple jobsites... and then age starting setting in... Now even if I'm doing something for myself, I plan it out and at least sketch it out with some kind of plan.

How do you figure out how much of what material you need to collect together for one of your tables. Each time you run for materials it takes takes time and fuel. Might as well get it all with a cut list right? To get that you have to plan out what pieces you are going to do of what size, what way the grain is oriented for each and how it lays out on your lumber stock... What fastener's and hardware you are going to need. What glues, sandpapers, stains, finishes, etc. Even if you are using scraps and what you have on hand, it's nice to have a list of what to collect together and not use those things on something else and be caught short, right?

So you don't have to have paying customers- For even a hobbiest or part-time weekend craftsman who's only customer is their wife, husband or just for them-self, it's nice to start out with some kind of plan to start out from. Maybe not a requirement mind you, but helpful no less. (at least in my thinking and experience.)


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> Another good reason for a plan Theo. Like Mike posted, if the customer sees it and signs off on it then unless you changed it that's what he gets and pays for.


Oops, should have added detail. I was talkiing about projects I was given in the military, not woodworking.


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