# Bit for joining lengths end to end



## itdm5j21 (Feb 5, 2013)

Hello All,

Firstly, I'm very fortunate to have a new Dakota/Grizzly type router table and a new Hitachi 1/2 inch router ordered and am hoping to take delivery this week. 

Once the items above are set up I would like to be able to achieve joining two lengths of wood together end to end. I believe there is a bit that cuts sharp peaks and troughs in order to increase the gluing surface and disquise the join. What bit would I need and which glue please for best results anyone?

Regards,
Ian.


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## Semipro (Mar 22, 2013)

Ian
Finger joint bit.
Freud 99-039 Variable Height Finger Joint Router Bit with 1/2-Inch Shank


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

itdm5j21 said:


> Hello All,
> which glue please for best results anyone?
> 
> Regards,
> Ian.


thin application of yellow wood glue...


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## itdm5j21 (Feb 5, 2013)

Hi Semipro,

- many thanks. I put your info into a search engine and got very little available for the UK. However, Trend have a similar bit - deep breath by me here - not going to get much change out of £90.00 though, if I were to have one posted. I'm sure the bit is worth it though think I have to get into routing a bit(sic) more before I get confident enough to invest in and not end up damaging one of these bits.

Cheers,
Ian


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## itdm5j21 (Feb 5, 2013)

Hi Stick486,

Thanks, I'll have to source some of that...

Cheers
Ian


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Ian; what are you joining? Are you talking about any kind of moulding or trim to go flat against another surface? Or just long lengths of freestanding material?
Scarf woodworking joints


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

itdm5j21 said:


> I put your info into a search engine and got very little available for the UK. However, Trend have a similar bit - deep breath by me here - not going to get much change out of £90.00 though


Hi Ian

As you are in the UK I'd tend to start with UK suppliers - it can be somewhat easier. As has already been stated end jointing isn't very strong, regardless of which glue you use, because you are joining end grain to end grain whereas what you should try to achieve with a glued joijnt is long grain to long grain. If you _sbsolutely_ can't do without it then maybe you should Google (in the UK) is "finger joint cutters". I'm with Dan about the scarf joints, though - far stronger and less costly to make but best made with a saw and a sharp hand plane. Another technique, depending on cicumstances is the loose tenon (or biscuit) in a slot which can be used for end joints if you are building something like a staved kitchen worktop (though not as strong as a scarf). Either the scarf or the loose tenon will give you more long grain jointing surface rather than the end grain to end grain of a end grain finger joint. In the event that you are still set on a finger joint then *in the UK* Wealden (very good supplier) sell both fixed sets and adjustable sets, Axminster Power Tool sells CMT bits (not all of them on the web site though, so you may need to ask), as well as their own pattern bit and Trend also sell a non-industrial model . 

On the subject of glues, you are aware that aliphatic resin and PVA are almost the same product, aren't you? That said, I will yet again swim against the tide here and say that with modern, high performance glues such as D4 PVA a properly made and correctly cramped butt joint will be easier to produce, take less effort and work almost as well a micro-finger jointed joint. Surely butt jointing is something _any_ woodworker needs to master? As a working and carpenter and joiner I've only ever seen finger jointing used industrially where a large amount of automation is in use and where the quality and lengths of timber (not to mention the skill of the staff) are potentiallty questionable - thus finger jointers have no place in my kit and I feel that the money is best used elsewhere. I've also rarely felt the need to buy high-priced aliphatic resins when there are locally manufactured alternatives available. I think the amateur woodwoking obsession with aliphatic resins is that people read American magazines but are generally ignorant of what's available on their own doorsteps - that and the fact that European manufacturers tend to adverstise a lot less

Regards

Phil


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Exactly.
The lumber yards here tried to jam FJ studs down our throats, a few years back. 
That idea died pretty quickly. You couldn't use it for scaffolding or anywhere there was any kind of sideways stress...basically expensive firewood.
Primed FJ mouldings weren't too bad but the Ultralight stuff pretty much killed that market as well.


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

DaninVan said:


> Exactly.
> The lumber yards here tried to jam FJ studs down our throats, a few years back.
> That idea died pretty quickly. You couldn't use it for scaffolding or anywhere there was any kind of sideways stress...basically expensive firewood.
> Primed FJ mouldings weren't too bad but the Ultralight stuff pretty much killed that market as well.


Hi Dan

Though I was a bit off tack, in particuilar I'd missed-out scarff joints (thinking about short staved worktops), so I've edited my original post to reflect this. :fie:

I'm with you on the finger-jointed stock. we had a similar attempt here a few years back, but the stuff just cannot be used for anthing structural and I've ended-up rejecting and returning batches of hardwood (oak, mainly) skirtings (baseboards) and architraves because as soon as you stain or even clear lacquer the stuff the joints stand out a mile. Inevitably the architect or the customer will reject it - and I just don'y have the time to rework second rate stuff

Regards

Phil


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## Peter Harrison45 (Aug 26, 2013)

I don't know if i've missed something here or not ?? but whats wrong with a kreg doweling joint or a biscuit joint??


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## Quillman (Aug 16, 2010)

Big glue joint cutters are used in production with shapers; they have the power and machinery to drive such a tool. Kithcen routers can't stand the stress of multi-pinned glue-jointers, but they can easily waste a surface with a dovetail bit. See the sample on top. The scarfing is a double ended dovetail. Enough glue surface for a good connection and the dovetails help in resisting bending stress. A 10$ or 15$ tool bit.


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## Bodger96 (Mar 18, 2014)

Hi Ian you can make good scarf joint jig for your router. It is really just a ramp for the router and some way of holding the stock. A scarf joint is the best way to get longer stock. You need the joint length to be 6 times the thickness of the stock. Example if the stock thickness is 19mm (3/4") then the scarf needs to be at least 114mm 
(4 1/2") long.

Regards Bob


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

*Butt, Butt...*



Peter Harrison45 said:


> I don't know if i've missed something here or not ?? but whats wrong with a kreg doweling joint or a biscuit joint??


...nothing's wrong with them, just not especially strong when stress is applied perpendicular to the material.
Think of it this way. Do _your_ joint at the 1/2 way point along a 6' -2 x 6. Let it dry, then place the 2 x 6 (on the flat) across a couple of 5 gal pails , one at each end.
Now stand on it and walk down the length. 
With a properly done scarf joint, the wood will break before the joint fails.
Just sayin'...


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

Not sure of the application but would a lap joint be effective for end to end ?


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

Good point, Nick.

It really depends on what Ian is making.

I suppose you could look at a lap joint as a 'square' scarff joint?


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

DaninVan said:


> Exactly.
> The lumber yards here tried to jam FJ studs down our throats, a few years back.
> That idea died pretty quickly. You couldn't use it for scaffolding or anywhere there was any kind of sideways stress...basically expensive firewood.
> Primed FJ moldings weren't too bad but the Ultralight stuff pretty much killed that market as well.


the same thing was tried here too...
then it was discovered that glue needed to be added to the joint...
they did.. all of two or three drops of it... 

FJ moldings use to be glued...
pretty sure they went back to no glue...


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Phil P said:


> but the stuff just cannot be used for anthing structural and
> 
> I've ended-up rejecting and returning batches of hardwood (oak, mainly) skirtings (baseboards) and architraves because as soon as you stain or even clear lacquer the stuff the joints stand out a mile.
> Regards
> ...


agreed on the structural applications...

FJ moldings are not intended for clear coats or stains... unless the mosaic is desired...
everything has it's place and time...


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

most everybody here has made long grain butt joints that simply won't come a apart... 
extreme duress aside...
end grain butt joints don't fair nearly as well simply because of them being end grain... 
enter the finger joint to circumvent this... there has to be at least a dozen profiles to fit the need...
generally fine for thin(ner) (≤ ¾) and shouldered profiles for thicker materials (> ¾)...
click on images in this link.. https://duckduckgo.com/?q=finger+joint+router+bit+images&ia=images&iai=34

an old world structural scarf joint... one of the very few that can be used unsupported in structural applications...
but over time it will still sag...
this is one that a lot of folks will not attempt or even know about in the 1st place.. but w/o glue and mechanical backup it isn't all it can be...
saw my 1st one disassembling a timber frame barn eons ago...










another...










*scarf joints as most understand them to be...*










for you nay sayers...
build a few of these joints and then test them... properly glued FJ's rarely break *at* the joint...
now this thing about needing big machines and tons of HP... tell that to my 1617 and 1619 routers... I know better..

*points...* 
FJ or scarf, you still have face grain change at the joint....
commercial FJ's from the BB's come apart on their own. dropping or from a scant amount of wiggling... they lack glue.. 
case in point...
home desperate's offerings...


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## firstmuller (Aug 28, 2014)

Some very good info here. I need to remember this all somehow.
Thanks
Allen


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Allen; no need to remember it. Just don't lose the 'permalink'!
http://www.routerforums.com/router-...bit-joining-lengths-end-end-2.html#post423034


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## firstmuller (Aug 28, 2014)

DaninVan said:


> Allen; no need to remember it. Just don't lose the 'permalink'!
> http://www.routerforums.com/router-...bit-joining-lengths-end-end-2.html#post423034


Thanks for this info.
Allen


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## itdm5j21 (Feb 5, 2013)

Hi Dan,

- apologies for delay in responding. I had in mind that joining some short lengths(of mainly pine) off cuts, in a similar fashion to wooden style worktops I've seen, might be a desirable thing to do with an approprite cutter. Well, obviously, in hind sight, I wasn't really thinking; more getting carried away on possibilities of my new routing table and 1/2 inch router, I guess.

Regards
Ian


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Ah! If it is actually a counter-top...as long as the adjacent runs are staggered...you wouldn't need a fancy end joint. Whatever is easiest and least expensive, both in money and time, eh? 
As Phil suggested, glue strength is highly _underrated_.


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## itdm5j21 (Feb 5, 2013)

Phil P said:


> Hi Ian
> 
> As you are in the UK I'd tend to start with UK suppliers - it can be somewhat easier. As has already been stated end jointing isn't very strong, regardless of which glue you use, because you are joining end grain to end grain whereas what you should try to achieve with a glued joijnt is long grain to long grain. If you _sbsolutely_ can't do without
> Hello Phil,
> ...


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## itdm5j21 (Feb 5, 2013)

Bodger96 said:


> Hi Ian you can make good scarf joint jig for your router. It is really just a ramp for the router and some way of holding the stock. A scarf joint is the best way to get longer stock. You need the joint length to be 6 times the thickness of the stock. Example if the stock thickness is 19mm (3/4") then the scarf needs to be at least 114mm
> (4 1/2") long.
> 
> Regards Bob


Hi Bob,

Thanks I believe I'm learning quickly and will make use scarf joints in the future, so the ration info is well received.

Regards
Ian


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

As we say on this side of the pond, Ian, 'You're golden!' 
Getting a lot of_enjoyment_ out of this pastime, is more important than actually making a Duncan Fife lookalike, eh?
I'm happy just being in the shop, cleaning up, sharpening stuff, or just thinking about my next undertaking. Beats cleaning the head!


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