# heating the shop



## reikimaster (Sep 29, 2005)

Ok so right now it's not just a shop. It's also my garage. 

I have a 2 and a half car garage where my woodworking stuff is. It gets REALLY cold out there in winter (I live near Niagara Falls, NY, US). Basically all my woodworking comes to a screeching halt until spring temps warm things up a bit. I am trying to figure out if it would be economically feasible to change that... even just a little. Any recommendations for how to heat the space so I can work out there? I can back my van out and have the entire space it occupies as "safe space" for a heater. Concrete floor with no combustibles within 6 feet in any direction. I've looked at propane heaters and wondered how long they'd run on a 20 pound cylinder and if they'd heat that space up to a usable temp. And I'm not sure how big a heater I'd need. I have to figure out, I think, how much BTU output I need to heat the space. 

I'm not talking about constant heating (although that would be wonderful), I'm talking about going out there, starting a heater, finding something to do while the garage warms up a bit and then doing some work for an hour or 4 and then shutting down.

Anyone got any experience with this scenario?

Now... next year might be different. We've pretty much decided that next summer is the last year for the pool. Then it's gone. I already have a concrete patio next to the garage. It's about 10x26. My wife told me that we need to put an addition on the garage so I have a workshop that's not trying to carve space out of the storage of junk that accumulates in a garage (garden tractor, snow blower, lawn mower, all the garden tools and out of season summer patio furniture, etc). Now I know that 10x26 is kind of a bowling alley of a shop space, but I'll take it. And the fact that SHE brought it up means I don't have to wish for it forever


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

The fastest way to bring up the temp in your garage is a torpedo type heater. A 55,000 BTU unit will bring the temp of your size shop up to 60º from 10º outside temps in about 15 minutes. This type of heater needs outside air for the intake or you will reduce the oxygen and have watering eyes in no time flat. I placed mine by an entry door and left it open about 6". Once you hit 60º turn off the torpedo. Now is the time to use a catalytic propane heater which warms objects, not the air. This will keep you comfortable. Another alternative is a kerosene heater. The large round convection heaters will keep the temp comfy all day for about $3, by far the best route short of an installed furnace. If you can find a radiant style even better, less than $2 a day. This is from experience with my own garage, about the same size as yours. Adding insulation to the inside of your garage door will greatly reduce the heat loss.
Remember that heating the cold shop and then letting it cool on a regular basis will produce a good amount of condensation on metal objects so a coating of WD-40 is in order to prevent rust.


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## challagan (Feb 7, 2006)

I had a Kerosene heater myself and it would warm the room in no time but the fumes would go throughout the house and gave me a heck of a headache. I sold it .. didn't work for my shop but might for someone else.

Corey


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## kp91 (Sep 10, 2004)

I've got a propane tank top infared, it works pretty well, but you've got to keep a door cracked.... so if it's a windy winter day it is not so effective. I also have a small quartz infrared heater (electric) that I'll use if I can't keep the door open or just for small jobs. It heats you, so you feel the effect pretty well.

If you're using a propane heater, make sure it has an ODS cut-out. I got mine from Harbor Freight a few years back, and it's been a solid performer. 

Another cheap fix, floor mats and thick socks help keep the concrete from chilling you as well!

If I ever get around to it, I've been looking to install a u-tube infrared heater (like the one's over the cashier at the home center). I've got 10 ft ceilings in the garage, and that will not be in the way. I like the u-tube type since that will have all the combustion effectively outside the shop. I'm hoping that since my garage is under the bedrooms, some of the heat will help warm up the upstairs as well!

another tip, see if the Mrs. will allow you a tiny bit of space in the laundry room to keep your glue. Some glues don't like the real cold temperatures, as lifted from the titebond site:

Titebond II Premium Wood Glue is not for continuous submersion or for use below the waterline. Not for structural or load bearing applications. Do not use when temperature, glue or materials are below 55°F. Freezing may not affect the function of the product but may cause it to thicken. Agitation should restore product to original form. Because of variances in the surfaces of treated lumber, it is a good idea to test for adhesion. Read MSDS before use. KEEP FROM FREEZING. KEEP OUT OF THE REACH OF CHILDREN.


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## reikimaster (Sep 29, 2005)

yeah I have some plastic milk crates that I use for collecting all my "don't want this to freeze" stuff and I bring them in the house for the winter. Nothing freezes in my garage. Not sure exactly why, but when I pull my car in, the snow melts off and sometimes I have to sweep teh water out the garage door.... where of course it promptly freezes... 

But it gets all my tools and equipment so cold that my hands get too cold to work on anything just from handling the tools! That patio I mentioned is probably inch and a half to 2 inches below the level of the garage floor. I'm going to take a serious look at installing radiant floor heat when I put on the addition. But for now... I just wanna warm it up for like... a day here and there. Or half a day.... maybe once a week or once every OTHER week.


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## Hamlin (Dec 25, 2005)

Torpedo heaters work the fastest. The one I have burns both diesel fuel and or kerosene. Problem with kerosene is, the price gets expensive after a short time.

I would suggest possibly looking at a small pellet stove.


Just my $0.02 worth.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

DANGER ,DANGER ,Will Robson , any open flame htg. in the garage or shop you are just asking for it..  in all the ways you can think of...the saw dust will ignite just like a bomb not to say anything about removing the air from the shop and relpacing it with a deadly gas.

I can't think of quicker way to put rust on ALL your tools than running one in your shop..the tools in the tool box with have rust on all of the tools not to say anything about the power tools, I found out the hard way that they are not cheap to run...you can clean the tops up but not inside the tools the norm.

If you want to get heck of a headache run one for about hour...just b/4 you pass out and hit the ground...

Elec.wall htg.work well in the shop they will keep the chill off some are 110 volt and some are the big ones at 220 volt...but they are not to cheap to run but it's cheaper than replacing the shop or making a call to 911... I want to talk with you and not about you.  be safe and not sorry... ..... >>>>


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## reikimaster (Sep 29, 2005)

Ok well... I bought a 55,000BTU propane powered mini torpedo. I also have an electric quartz radiant heater. The propane mini torpedo was only $139 at The Tractor Store. I bought an extra 20# cylinder as well. The torpedo will run for about 8 hours on high from a 20# tank. If I warm up the garage with the torpedo first, and then shut it down and use the electric radiant heater to keep the chill off while working, this might work out. 

If I need a boost from the torpedo from time to time, then I'll have to consider what operation I'm doing and how much dust will be in the air. Might have to make better use of my dust control. I don't always run it. 

I have those interlocking cushioned mats in my work area and I REALLY can't spend more than a couple hours on my feet at a time anyways. Trying to work out there in winter is going to force me into some better habits as far as planning and cleaning. If I kept the propane heater running on high, AND if I cut the run time estimate to 6 hours instead of 8, then it'll cost me about $2 an hour to run it. (I can fill a 20# cylinder for $12). 

The other morning when I went out to go to work, the outside air temp was 22 degrees. The garage inside was 34. Even in the dead of winter, snow MELTS off my van after I pull it in and the water on the floor from the melt has never frozen in the 13 years we've been here. However... water in a water bottle HAS frozen. So I'm guessing the concrete might not cold soak but the air gets below freezing at least sometimes.

When I put on the addition for the shop, I might plan on electric heat. I know there's 220 out there because the guy that lived here before used to restore old farm tractors out there and had an arc welder out there. I'll have an electrician take a look at the electric system from the mains to the sub panel and let a pro tell me if it could handle the load. If I just keep the shop at 40 or 50 degrees when I'm not out there then it MIGHT not be terrible on the electric bill. Might also be a good enough reason to make the walls from 2x6 instead of 2x4 and get more insulation in there. The mice will love it!  I wonder if I'd be better off with the sprayed on, expanding foam stuff.... I wonder if mice don't like that.

ANYWAYS.... I'm rambling as usual. For now.... and with a careful eye towards dust, I think I can pop the temp up with the torpedo and maintain some level of working comfort with the electric quartz heater. I won't always be using dust-making power tools. I'd like to be able to go out there and sit and work on carving, or do things with hand tools. I also have plans around here somewhere for a "dust detector". It works kinda like a smoke detector and just measures stuff suspended in the air... like smoke... or dust. If that alarm goes off I could make sure the propane heater ain't running.


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## reikimaster (Sep 29, 2005)

OH... so again I guess I'm asking... anyone else live in an area where it gets really cold AND has a shop that isn't inside or attached to their house AND heats it for the winter?

I know one older guy that has a woodshop and he has heated it with a wood stove for probably the last 50 years without an issue. BUT... he grew UP with wood stoves. I didn't.

So I'm still interested in hearing about how anyone is heating a small, detached workshop. You guys are my biggest source of information for this stuff. And I am REALLY liking working in wood again and I HATE that I have to stop for about 6 months of the year because it's too cold to work out there.


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## BrianS (Nov 7, 2004)

When you put the addition on that you mentioned, check out the price of in-floor hot water heating. I've not idea of the cost, or even if it's allowed in your area, but I've always thought that was the route I would take if I ever built another shop or garage. A friend of mine built a double car garage a few years back and he installed plastic piping before he poured the floor. He uses a household hot water heater to heat the water, and a small pump to circulate it thru the floor. He keeps it about 50F in there and it's nice to work in .

Brian


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

hi reikimaster

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/3UG73
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/3UG56
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/2E158?BaseItem=3UG73
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/5NF09


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reikimaster said:


> OH... so again I guess I'm asking... anyone else live in an area where it gets really cold AND has a shop that isn't inside or attached to their house AND heats it for the winter?
> 
> I know one older guy that has a woodshop and he has heated it with a wood stove for probably the last 50 years without an issue. BUT... he grew UP with wood stoves. I didn't.
> 
> So I'm still interested in hearing about how anyone is heating a small, detached workshop. You guys are my biggest source of information for this stuff. And I am REALLY liking working in wood again and I HATE that I have to stop for about 6 months of the year because it's too cold to work out there.


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## Hamlin (Dec 25, 2005)

My granddad used to heat his shop with a wood stove as well with no problems. If you decide on a wood stove, look at a "pot-belly" stove for space wise.
http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/NTESearch?storeId=6970&N=0&Ntk=All&Ntt=wood%20stove&Nty=1&D=wood%20stove&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&Dx=mode+matchallpartial

At current time, I'm heating my shop with a "torpedo" heater, it sits on the opposite end of the shop from where I'm working. I no longer burn kerosene in it, too many fumes and the price is just too high.


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## reikimaster (Sep 29, 2005)

The wood stove is a "quaint" idea, but in all honesty, I think my insurance company would have a fit. The existing patio slab is about 2 inches lower than the existing garage slab, so I have room to put in the tubing for a heated floor, however there is no insulation under that patio slab and I'd be sinking a lot of heat into the ground. If I was building new, then in-floor heat would be the way to go. Very safe and very efficient. 

I think I'm going to look a little deeper into operating costs for the electric heaters. They usually cost a lot less to install, but if I end up paying through the butt to run them then they aren't such a great deal. They also look like they have rather low BTU output compared to the gas heaters in any given price range.

I found one really nice gas heater that uses air from outside for combustion. It's a sealed combustion unit. No dust or fumes worries. But it's about $850. I think I have to come up with something less expensive until I see exactly how much time I spend out there when it's heated. If I use it a LOT and that time is productive, then it might be worth upgrading a heater.


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## Fourleftpaws (Feb 12, 2007)

I am surprised about the propane heater. Most of the shops in this area have a small propane tank on the outside of the building and a propane heating unit on the inside with it vented to the outside - 95% of the units are hung from the ceiling or trusses. That is what I have in my shop (24 x 24). I think I spent about $1000 on my heating unit - that was for the unit and the insulation by a professional heating contractor. Low heat in the winter when I am not using the shop is 40 degrees, I can go from that up to 90 degrees. The unit is set about 60 when I am out there working. Dust - always a problem - but I tried to may my little shop as dust proof as possible - the insurance company seemed fine about the heating unit when they looked at it. When I know I am routing or doing something that I am going to create a lot of dust the heating unit goes off - and I make sure the Jet dust system along with a good vacuum system on the router is running. Can never be too safe. As in the old cowboy movies - "When the dust settles", the heater is turned back on.


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Kerosene torpedo heaters are the ones that will spew fumes. Properly running radiant or convection kerosene heaters are actually safe to use indoors provided there is a small amount of make up air. This is hundred year old technology that works. I heated my house this way for two years, and it does save you money. The savings come with refilling the tank, fetching the kerosene, and if you let the tank burn dry you do get strong fumes. In normal operation there is no odor. With normal dust collection procedures there is no undue hazard.


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## reikimaster (Sep 29, 2005)

Insurance company won't mind a propane heater. It's the wood stove they would frown on. I'm not sure what winters are like in southern Idaho, FourLeftPaws, but I'd be curious as to how much it costs you to run your propane heater through a season.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

hi reikimaster

You should to have a chat with someone who works for the fire department and ask them what they think of kerosene, wood stoves,space htg.,etc. in shops/garages and ask them how may calles they get each year for fires started by them...

Most are outlawed by zoning departments . (any open flame htg.system ) 

===
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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

BJ, most fire department calls would be due to electric space heaters. Common sense must be applied with any type of heating device. Kerosene heaters are sold for use inside homes as well as the newer propane heaters with oxygen depletion sensors. The instructions with these heaters tell you to not leave the heaters unattended. These are not intended to be used as primary heating devices, and this thread is about a temporary solution allowing work in an unheated area.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Mike 

I'm sure you'er right but I only know what I read..  by people in the know...

http://www.cdc.gov/nasd/docs/d001001-d001100/d001100/d001100.html
http://www.iii.org/media/publications/brochures/kerosene/

"Asphyxiation. Kerosene heaters consume oxygen as they burn. 
If they are operated in a small room or in an inadequately ventilated area, oxygen in the air could be reduced to a dangerous level. 
Reduced oxygen supply could lead to incomplete combustion of fuel and the production of carbon monoxide. 
Carbon monoxide is a colorless, odorless gas which in sufficient concentrations, or if breathed over a period of time, can kill without warning."

"It's fine to disagree with other members as long as you respect their opinions." 
MIKE
Senior Moderator



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## reikimaster (Sep 29, 2005)

Once I get the new shop, the heater will be a permanent fixture and will meet fire code.

For now, the torpedo works like a champ. I left my (2 car wide) garage door open about 6 inches, fired up the torpedo, ran it on high for about 10 minutes, and then cut it back to low and ran about an hour. When I cut it back to low, I closed the garage door and opened the man door about 6 inches. I could work in a flannel shirt. Comfy.

As a temporary solution this seems fine for now. And I'm using the heater in the way it was intended and certified. Still researching the type of permanent heater I'll be using in the new shop, but.... I think I'm good for now.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

I'm surprised that a split reverse cycle air-conditioner hasn't been mentioned, that's what I have and they are very popular here. The temperature can be adjusted in 1deg. increments.


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## reikimaster (Sep 29, 2005)

Harry,

A mini-split? Not sure I am understanding the split reverse part.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

The split means that the compressor (and noise) is outside and just the remote controlled fan unit is inside. The reverse cycle means that it can heat and cool. I'm sure you must have them in the US.


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## curiousgeorge (Nov 6, 2006)

Harry I don't know if they are used much in homes here. Most have central heat/air, but they are prevalent in motels. That is a good idea. I might have to check into that.


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## AxlMyk (Jun 13, 2006)

Those are also known as Heat Pumps Harry. Heaters and AC units.

I use 2 electric heaters in my shop/garage. One is a 2 stage 1500 watt with heating coils, the other is a 2 stage 1500 watt quartz. I turn them on full for a couple hours, then back them off to half power. Keeps the garage to about 55 deg F. Comfortable enough even in February.

The roof is insulated, as is the garage door. I have 3 vents in the roof but plugged them with fiberglass batting. I'm going to install a fan in the peak of the roof to blow warm air back down.


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## reikimaster (Sep 29, 2005)

I don't think a heat pump will even work when it gets cold enough here. 
The electrics are really inexpensive to buy, but I am having trouble figuring out how much they'd cost to run.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

reikimaster said:


> I don't think a heat pump will even work when it gets cold enough here.
> The electrics are really inexpensive to buy, but I am having trouble figuring out how much they'd cost to run.


I'm not sure if we are talking about the same thing, so here are a couple of shots. This unit which is a gross overkill for my 20' x 15' shed, but was removed from the house soon after purchase in order to install a 5hp ducted system. On heating it's rated at 7.8kw and 26,600 btu, on cooling, 6.45kw and 22,000 btu.
It must be remembered that the compressor is not running all the time, it cuts in and out to maintain the temperature at the set level.


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

This type of unit is called a heat pump in the US Harry. They do not perform well with our colder northern temperatures. They are quite common in the southern parts of the US.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Harry

This is the one I was talking about and one can get them for a song when they take the building down (demo building ) some times called a HV 3 or 4 ton..
My brother worked for a demo company and they just put them in the dump truck, they had so many they didn't save them, unless almost new, date tags give you that info, most of the time off the roof into the back of a pickup for a 100.oo bucks..most builders don't want used equipment they like to charge for the new ones and the jobs calls for that... 
Real common on commercial building in Denver ( 20deg. below 0 and as high as 105 degs.) the norm.............

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/1AYV9
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/6MF59
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/ww...ch&originalValue=HV+units&L1=Heat/Cool+Units,

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harrysin said:


> I'm not sure if we are talking about the same thing, so here are a couple of shots. This unit which is a gross overkill for my 20' x 15' shed, but was removed from the house soon after purchase in order to install a 5hp ducted system. On heating it's rated at 7.8kw and 26,600 btu, on cooling, 6.45kw and 22,000 btu.
> It must be remembered that the compressor is not running all the time, it cuts in and out to maintain the temperature at the set level.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

At those prices Bj I'm sure that you have one or two working to keep you're house nice and warm at the moment and I bet you have a couple of spares "just in case"!
What is you're experience so far as coping with super low temperatures?


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Harry

"What is you're experience so far as coping with super low temperatures?"

Don't go outside 

The shop is about 80ft from the back door,, and if I run I don't get cold 


==========


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## AxlMyk (Jun 13, 2006)

bobj3 said:


> The shop is about 80ft from the back door,, and if I run I don't get cold ==========


Put your clothes on.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Very funny guys, I was of course referring to the heat pumps that Bj mentioned.


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## reikimaster (Sep 29, 2005)

Harry-

The heat pumps only work down to about 40F ( 4 or 5C ) so for a good portion of my winter, the heat pump simply won't work. My winter temps are often in the 15F to 25F degree range ( -10C to -4C ). We get some stretches in january/february where we've gone a week or 2 without ever getting above 10F ( -12C ) and that's a HIGH temp for a week or 2. Evening temps would be 0F or below ( -18C ). 

I can insulate the new shop very well. Heck I can go to 2x6 walls instead of 2x4 (and probably will) but cold is cold and I'd still like to be able to keep the temp in the flannel shirt range.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Harry

The HV units works very well, I don't have any backup ones becasue they are hard to store,,,but they are always taking building down all the time, all one needs to do is open his eyes to see one coming down and just ask the boss if they can buy it...it's one of the 1st.items they take off the roof...right place right time thing... someone can make a call to one of the demo companys in town and just ask them if they have one in the yard, most do keep the newer ones for resale, I have seen some less than a year old...just like new 
Some building have 3 or 4 on the roof....

http://www.teksupply.com/farm/suppl...&ftSearchDefaultPerPage=10&searchQuery=heater





harrysin said:


> Very funny guys, I was of course referring to the heat pumps that Bj mentioned.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

10F............You wouldn't get me out of bed!


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

In Michigan we get -20ºF most winters, at least for a short time. Of course I live near Detroit so I am in the southern part of the state. The "Yoopers" in the upper peninsula see colder temps.


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## Dr.Zook (Sep 10, 2004)

*Out of bed*



harrysin said:


> 10F............You wouldn't get me out of bed!


Harry at that temp, your OLD bones couldn't get out of bed.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

You are so right Dave. Before deciding to migrate from the UK in 1964, we gave serious consideration to Canada, boy am I glad we decided on Western Australia, the weather plays no part in deciding when I make sawdust. How about some real white Christmassy photographs from you guys.


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## cdat (Dec 27, 2007)

Used a Torpedo heater last year but got sick and tired of the wait time. Now, I use a Radiant heater. High cost to get it set up but boy was it worth it. Maintain a constant temp of 50 degrees when not using the shop and turn it up when I need to use it. I have yet to see a serious difference in my gas bill.


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## George II (Nov 8, 2007)

Would solar panels work? I do not know about them but a lot of folks here in Georgia installed them in the 80s but not so much lately. Just a thought.
George Cole


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## cdat (Dec 27, 2007)

Solar panels could work but as those people who invested in them in the 80's found out, as things wore out or broke down, the companies that made them all went out of business and they (solar panels) fell out of use. Not fun to invest money with no proven track record and no hope of getting your monies worth out of it should it ever fail.


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## George II (Nov 8, 2007)

I was wondering where they went. Now I know. I still like the old fashioned wood burning stove idea but not in a wood working shop for sure.

For myself I use insulated coveralls and socks the hands are a problem as using gloves are as hazard waiting to happen.

George II
George Cole 



cdat said:


> Solar panels could work but as those people who invested in them in the 80's found out, as things wore out or broke down, the companies that made them all went out of business and they (solar panels) fell out of use. Not fun to invest money with no proven track record and no hope of getting your monies worth out of it should it ever fail.


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## Hamlin (Dec 25, 2005)

Had a set of solar panels, in fact still have them, stored away. The amount of heat that they were supposed to produce didn't match to what "they", the companys promised. If you stood or sat near a vent it felt like it was blowing cold air on you. They were quiet though, so that was a plus on their side. I put the panels themselves inside our old barn for storage, kept the fan motors for use in moving air in the shop, of course haven't had the time to set them up.

I know some people would/will swear by them, I won't. To each his/her own I reckon.


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

There is no problem heating a wood shop with a wood burning stove. How do you think shops were heated in the past?


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

I have an idea Mike that such shops were more than slightly larger than an average garage!


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## Thrifty Tool Guy (Aug 23, 2007)

Hello,

If you have adequate electrical service, I would go with one or two 220V wall units. They have thermistats and blower fans to aid circulation. With this approach, you have no worries with a oxygen depletion.

However, if your electrical service is limited or Niagara Mohawk's rates aren't attractive, vented or non-vented propane or NG wall units are a possibility but be careful with air quality and fumes, if you go the un-vented route. I have two un-vented 10K BTU convection units that heat my 2-car detached garage (DESA International is the mfg), but I avoid using any mildly volatile finishes (stains or Polyurethane) with the heaters running. At the end of this heating season, I'll be looking for a larger radiant unit to replace the convection units. In addition, I'm planning to upgrade my electrical service to the garage to provide adequate 220V service for the previously mentioned electrical heaters.

Now, other members have mentioned torpedo heaters and at the radiant dome units. Be exceedingly careful with those units, they are meant for barns and temporary shelters (i.e., "tarp houses") on construction sites. Lots of heat and exhaust.

Wood and coal stoves are great, but not fast. Also, be realistic when you calculate the cost of fuel. Living in rural PA, I've known numerous people that have spent lots of money to get free fire wood. Besides, I'm too lazy to cut firewood in the middle of summer and I hate dealing with the snakes and mosquitoes.

Have a good one.


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## garycurtis (Sep 17, 2007)

Heating was a subject I learned when we converted my 8-car garage (yes, 8) into living space and I installed a boiler and radiant-panels on the walls. And then I learned more as I went through flight school at the airlines. My previous home was in Los Angeles, so needs there are modest.

A properly insulated structure calls for 25 btu's per square foot. Add to that for an unusually high ceiling or lots of windows. On my new house in Northern California (current temp - 34 deg) we installed a heat pump for the house. The new generation heat pumps will heat with temperatures below 20 degrees. 

I didn't want the plumbing or the extra cost to expand the system to include the garage. It is a 3-car structure, insulated to the latest code specifications, with an insulated door and very high ceilings. I wanted flexibility, so I bought a 220v plug-in heater at the hardware store for $140. It pumps out 4000 watts, which translates into 14,000 btus. On a 20 degree day, it heats the space in about 15 minutes. 

With any method chosen you run the risk of burning the place down (dust) or gassing yourself (oxygen depletion/exhaust fumes). My heater only draws about 12 amps, so the circuits are quite safe. The economics of this matter favor kerosene-fueled devices if your insulation is poor. I wouldn't attempt 110v under any circumstances. 

Gary Curtis


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## reikimaster (Sep 29, 2005)

I know there's 220 back there as there used to be a welding plug and a pair of tied breakers (a pair of 30amp I think they were) 

I'm only talking about heating 240 square feet. (it will be 10 x 24) and will be insulated. I know electric heaters are generally MUCH less expensive than the LP gas heaters.

What kind of electric units do you have?


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Ok, here is an update using this years information. Kerosene is selling for $3.69 a gallon this year as compared to $2.85 last year. With an outside temperature of 26º F my 20K BTU convection heater raised the temp to 40º after 5 hours. Firing up the 100K BTU propane torpedo heater brought the temp to 70 in about 15 minutes. Cycling the torpedo for 10 minutes every hour kept the garage shirt sleeve comfortable. Yes, this is a real bother and far from the best solution but it is the best option available to me for the time being. Please note that my garage is 24' x 22' and has un-restricted sofit and roof vents and no weather stripping around the double wide roll up door. There is no insulation anywhere. I would guess this is pretty typical for Michigan.


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## Hamlin (Dec 25, 2005)

Hi Mike, this is why I no longer burn kerosene. I haven't burned kerosene in 2yrs now. Too expensive!!
If some people wish to believe that using electric will be cheaper, then go for it. Glad it's your bill and not mine.
It's obvious that there is no true solution to the real question at hand. Heat and dust don't mix period, no matter what you use, there is always that hazard. It's in how you handle that hazard, ie., control the dust or not, that is where the hazard lies. (common sense).


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## Thrifty Tool Guy (Aug 23, 2007)

Ken,

The issue of which energy/fuel source is cheapest will depend on your state of residence and utility company. In my case, electric is still partially regulated in PA and I have a low-cost electric provider, so it's a good option relative to propane or kerosene. As we all know, the cost of propane and kerosene has sky-rocketed in the past few years (hello 1978), so those high output options are a bit less attractive at this time. Having said that, I think it's prudent to have a non-electric system available for emergencies or for rapid heating. However, I think electric is the best option for continuous use (i.e., several hours) with minimal loss of floor space.

Of course, that is only my opinion.


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## garycurtis (Sep 17, 2007)

The comments I made are based on statistics at my other home, and I can't put my hands on them now. Propane and kerosene prices are both tied to oil prices and rise together.

But here is one hard fact. A gallon of kerosene has about 34% more btu content than a gallon of propane. That is why a Mercedes diesel will get 30+ mpg. And why a propane stove has trouble boiling water. My new home has a propane stove, so I know. 

I would say that a weekend of stuffing insulation in your garage would be a priority, no matter what heat source you have. Judging from the poor available of devices for this purpose, an inventor could make some real money building better garage heating devices. Shops are not building sites, and they are not homes. They fall into a special catergory that the heating industry is ignoring. For the present.

Gary Curtis


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## Hamlin (Dec 25, 2005)

Thrifty Tool Guy said:


> Ken,
> 
> The issue of which energy/fuel source is cheapest will depend on your state of residence and utility company. In my case, electric is still partially regulated in PA and I have a low-cost electric provider, so it's a good option relative to propane or kerosene. As we all know, the cost of propane and kerosene has sky-rocketed in the past few years (hello 1978), so those high output options are a bit less attractive at this time. Having said that, I think it's prudent to have a non-electric system available for emergencies or for rapid heating. However, I think electric is the best option for continuous use (i.e., several hours) with minimal loss of floor space.
> 
> Of course, that is only my opinion.


You're right, it all depends on where you are located. I'm also saying, there is no right or wrong answer to the solution to which the original question was asked. The biggest culprit to hazards, (fire), is the lack of common sense.
If you do use an electric unit, be sure to blow them out once in awhile.


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## garycurtis (Sep 17, 2007)

Make that 40% more than propane. Kerosene has 30% more heat than gasoline.

GC


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## Thrifty Tool Guy (Aug 23, 2007)

Ken,

Good point. That also goes for any un-vented propane units.

TTG


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## Thrifty Tool Guy (Aug 23, 2007)

Gary,

Visit your local mechanic and see his set-up. Unless you insulate and limit any air leaks, you have few choices to paying the bill. Fuel oil (diesel) or kerosene does offer the greatest energy density, but you have to get rid of the exhaust gas or choke. In the 70's a lot of guys adapted mobile home furnaces to their garage work shops. It wasn't too hard to find those units at savage yards.

TTG


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

I know this post has been beaten into the ground but how about just put on some more clothes and just keep in the heat you have...and maybe some light cloves...so your hand don't stick to the metal parts.. LOL the laytex cloves work well for this job and if you have them on for just a bit when you take them off your hands will nice and clean... LOL 

==============


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## Thrifty Tool Guy (Aug 23, 2007)

How does that keep my coffee from freezing? The dust I can live with, but cold coffee is just plain bad.


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## Thrifty Tool Guy (Aug 23, 2007)

garycurtis said:


> The comments I made are based on statistics at my other home, and I can't put my hands on them now. Propane and kerosene prices are both tied to oil prices and rise together.
> 
> But here is one hard fact. A gallon of kerosene has about 34% more btu content than a gallon of propane. That is why a Mercedes diesel will get 30+ mpg. And why a propane stove has trouble boiling water. My new home has a propane stove, so I know.
> 
> ...


Lennox makes a line of ceiling mount furnaces for garages. Go to their website and search for the LF24 model.


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## reikimaster (Sep 29, 2005)

I'm still reading this. 
The space I'll end up with is only going to be 10x24. That's 240 square feet. If I use 25 BTU per square foot then I only need 6000 BTU to heat it. It WILL have a "cathedral" ceiling since I probably won't have a flat ceiling above me. It will go right up to the roof rafters, but it's a low pitch roof so I'm not adding a lot of volume. AND I will insulate the heck out of this space. I think Gary is right though. Special attention to insulation and heat RETENTION could mean that whatever I do to heat that space becomes a little easier on the wallet. It will also make it possible to consider air conditioning in summer.


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## Thrifty Tool Guy (Aug 23, 2007)

Can you tack OSB or Tuff-R foam board to the horizontal run of the rafter? I've resorted to that band-aid for the winter. It isn't great, but better than nothing. In the case of the Tuff-R Foam board, one man can (almost) handle the job, if the ceiling isn't too high.

Good luck


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## reikimaster (Sep 29, 2005)

I'll have 6" batt between the roof rafters at least. It's a 4/12 pitch so in the 12 feet from the eaves to the peak it only goes up 4 feet. I plan on using some of that overhead space for light weight storage so I won't be putting a flat ceiling in. Just platforms on the collar ties. I just don't think the area above the 8' walls is going to add a lot of volume to the space. And if I spend the money on insulation and sealing cracks and stuff... I think the energy required to heat or cool this small shop won't be all that bad. One of my brother's friends just told me about these electric infrared radiant panels he has in his shop (he works on cars... not wood). Because of fuel, solvents, and paint, he had a concern about heating with anything that had a flame. He's also not out there all day long every day. An evening here or there and maybe one day on the weekend. He said to run just one of the 7 foot panels costs him about $20 a month. He has 3 panels but only uses the others occasionally. He said you don't need the air temperature to be real high.... that it's like working on a 65 degree day in the sun. But if you're UNDER a car then the car is blocking the radiant heat and it can be chilly. He said he's gotten used to that little quirk  The units cost him about $150 each. They're called radiant cove. They mount up at the top of the wall and "shine" on you. I'm still planning on using my little propane mini-torpedo. But popping the temp up with that and then shutting it down and working under a radiant sounds like it could be worth looking into.

*** EDIT***
Ok just to have some real numbers..

watts x hours-per-day x days-per-month) = watt hours
watt hours / 1,000 = KiloWattHours
KiloWattHours x cost per KWHr (9.5 cents in my area) = operating costs per month

---example:---
1050 watts x 6 hours x 30 days = 189,000 (watt hours)
189,000/1,000 = 189 (killowatt hours)

189 x .095 (9.5 cents per KWHr) = $17.96 per month

--- example 2 ---
If this unit ran only 3 days per week (or 12 days per month) for 6 hours on each of those days:
1050 x 6 x 12 = 75,600
75.6 KWHr x 9.5 cents each = $7.18 per month

For occasional heat, this isn't looking all that terrible. Especially since the cost of the unit is only about $150, it has no moving parts, no flame, and I don't think anyone would argue that radiant heat feels good. 

I'll keep it on my list and investigate it a bit further.
here's what I'm looking at:
http://www.radiantsystemsinc.com/index.html
http://www.radiantsystemsinc.com/shopping/


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## Thrifty Tool Guy (Aug 23, 2007)

I had never considered the electric radiant heaters, but I must admit that your argument for spot heating is good. In my garage workshop, most of the tools are arranged around a 3'x5' open space (i.e., an adhoc version of one of those "ideal" kitchen layout plans). Therefore, one or two of your small radiant units could be targeted towards that area, and the rest of the garage/shop could be heated to 50~55 degrees with some convective unit.

Interesting alternative.


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## reikimaster (Sep 29, 2005)

OK, well I called the company and told them I am trying to get efficiency numbers. I also explained that "I'm not doing anything until August. I am looking for ideas"

The guy took my space dimensions and told me that as a sole source of heat I would need 1900 watts. (a 1000 watt unit and a 900 watt unit... still very cheap to buy). This is for a "reasonably well insulated space". He said that new construction, 2x4 walls, regular thermopane windows, tyvek wrapped with attention to sealing around windows and doors would be considered "reasonably insulated space". If I got to 2x6 walls with low-e thermopane windows I start entering the realm of "superinsulation" and costs go down accordingly. 

It was 8 degrees F where he was as we were talking and he said the units are "on" about 40% of the time. So.... here we go with a calculation....

1900 watts x 24 hours a day x 30 days = 1,368,000 watt hours (yikes!)
divide that by 1000 and it = 1368 Kilowatt hours

1368KWhr x 9.5 cents per KWhr = $129.96
BUT... if they are only in an "on" condition 40% of the time, then we're looking at $51.98 per month

Now that's for FULL TIME heating the shop and not turning a thermostat down when you're not in it and it's also a calculation based on very cold outside temperatures. Sun on the roof, temperatures in the 30s instead of single digits, any of those things would make that monthly cost less. He also said that these types of heaters are not going to heat teh shop instantly. You'll be fine standing in front of them but parts of the shop will feel colder until the whole space warms up. He said that for the space to feel evenly heated can take a couple of hours and that if the heat has been OFF for a few days and it's been extremely cold... the concrete floor can take all day to warm up, but once it's warm it's actually helping to evenly heat the space. 

I told him I have a 30amp 220v circuit back there and I asked if that would run both units at the same time. He said, "Those 2 units TOGETHER, working full on, will only ever draw 8.4 amps. You could TRIPLE the number of units on that circuit and STILL not be close to overloading it." He said that he has a lot of woodworking shops using these. They're inexpensive. They have no flame. And he had one guy specifically call him and tell him that he's doing his winter time glue-ups under a radiant cove. It keeps the entire work piece warm overnight for literally pennies. 

This is staying on my list. If it cost me $250 for an entire heating season... that's STILL less than what I pay PER MONTH to heat the pool in the summer (another reason why the pool is going bye-bye after this summer)


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## reikimaster (Sep 29, 2005)

Kristin-

The floor is already in. It is currently a patio. It doesn't have insulation under it and without that insulation, in-floor heat is like throwing money into a hole.  I had originally wanted to float an additional 2" of concrete over the existing and install the heated floor, but talking to RadianTec, they advised me against it... and they SELL the radiant floor stuff. My current dust collection doesn't exhaust any air from the space.


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