# I Noticed A Big Difference



## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

Readers of my T&Ps will recall that I installed a Tri Master Lenox blade on my 17" band saw sometime back and that it broke after several months of use. It was sent in for repair. In the mean time I had installed a Lenox Bi Metal blade which also broke two days ago, after several months of use, so I re-installed the one that had been repaired. It broke again almost immediately after installing it.

Well, when the first blade broke several months ago, Lenox just sent me a brand new replacement blade no questions asked, all I did was phone and ask ab out their warranty. Well I installed it today.

Now here is what this thread is really about. After installing the original blade it did not cut any different than any other half inch blade, I thought, well, the cut is much cleaner, almost rivaling the cut from a TS as advertised, I figured that the blade would just last a long time which probably will, even if it has to be re-welded, but that can't be done to many times as it gets shortened a tad each time that it is fixed or so I have been told by the people that do the welding.

O.K., now back to the ooint, the second blade cuts through QS white Oak like butter, a real difference. Makes me wonder if that first blade was maybe a defective blade and Lenox may have been suspect of it and might be the reasonwhy they were wo quick to send me a replacement blade. By the way keep in mind that these blades cost $177 a copy. 

I had been disappointed in the first blade thinking that it would cut more aggressively and it didn't, but man, the replacement blade is really sweet, well worth the cost if it will not break.

I have done my best to set the tension accordint to the instruction manual this time which I had not done earlier. However, I cannot tell by feel any difference in the tension setting as per the manual compared to what I had been setting it before. So, I'm hoping that this blade will last for awhile. I'm sending the other two in to be re-welded.

Jerry


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

Great to hear of good CS, Jerry.

Let us know how this blade performs....


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## RMIGHTY1 (Nov 5, 2014)

Gee Jerry for $177 it ought to install and adjust itself,,, :lol:

Hope this one lasts for you.


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

RMIGHTY1 said:


> Gee Jerry for $177 it ought to install and adjust itself,,, :lol:
> 
> Hope this one lasts for you.


I think that it's the gold plate and the mother of pearl inlays that drive the price up.


Jerry


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## Ghidrah (Oct 21, 2008)

I'm glad someone else said it before me $177 that one band cost more than all my bands combined with enough left over for some Chinese take out


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

Ghidrah said:


> I'm glad someone else said it before me $177 that one band cost more than all my bands combined with enough left over for some Chinese take out


I'll admit that I got carried away when I decided to try the high dollar blades, I was curious as to if such blades would perform any better than the normal blades that I had been using. I would not do it again knowing what I know now.

However, if ths blade that is on the saw now will continue to cut as well as it is cutting now and "NOT BREAK" it may be worth it, will have to see over time.

Jerry


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## MEBCWD (Jan 14, 2012)

Jerry,

You should take the tension off of the blade when you are not using the saw and re-tension before each use. This takes the stress off of the joint. 

You can make a sign to remind you to re-tension the blade before using the saw and leave it on the saw table or hang it by the switch. 

Also I have found that a repaired blade, is more prone to breaking.

Hope this helps


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

I too release the tension when finished...small piece of wood hangs over the switch to remind me to check tension before turning it on. I also spin the wheel by hand before starting it up to make sure the blade is "on track" and then the switch...

Hope your blade is everything you want it to be...good luck with it...


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## MT Stringer (Aug 15, 2012)

If your start/stop switch has a place for a lock out device, lock it after each use. That will be a good reminder that you need to do some maintenance before starting it.


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

MEBCWD said:


> Jerry,
> 
> You should take the tension off of the blade when you are not using the saw and re-tension before each use. This takes the stress off of the joint.
> 
> ...


Mike,
I do take the tension off most of the time. From time to time I have forgotten to do so and a reminder is certainly a good idea. I have heard from several sources from others that they never take the tension off, but logic, to me anyway, is that it is more likely to be a good idea than not. The manufacturer didn't put the device to release the tenion on for look.

I need to ask another question now that we are on the band saw subject. The blade rides to the right edge of the top wheel when the bottom of the gullet is centered on the crown of the tire, but is running on the left side of the lower tire. At one time this issue of co-plane came on the forum and the last post that I recall is that this should be left alone as the manufacturer know more about the subject than the user does. I suppose that I need to phone Grizzly and ask them about it.

Jerry


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Hi Jerry

I've always thought that the wheels should be co-planar. If they aren't you'd tend to end up with one or other of the tyres getting marked by the teeth. Equally on the issue of tension, if you leave a blade under tension all the time it can eventually pull the frame of the machine out, although this is more a small saw (sub 20in) issue than a big industrial saw problem (cast iron doesn't really move that much), but also with very narrow blades (1/4in and less) you tend to find that the blade pulls a permanent "track" into the tyres (where it runs over the crown) which will eventually lead to blade wander and/or poor tracking

As an aside I used to have a 28in saw with Trimaster blades. I seem to recall that they have thicker bodies than "normal" blades of any given width and so require a fairly high tension. I used to set mine with a Starrett tension gauge (more because we also had a band rack and that ran huge tensions with 2-1/2in blades), but that's overkill in many ways. I was wondering, though, where your blades broke. The place where blades tend to break on smaller diameter blades does seem to be the weld

Regards

Phil


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

Jerry Bowen said:


> Mike,
> I do take the tension off most of the time. From time to time I have forgotten to do so and a reminder is certainly a good idea. I have heard from several sources from others that they never take the tension off, but logic, to me anyway, is that it is more likely to be a good idea than not. The manufacturer didn't put the device to release the tenion on for look.
> 
> I need to ask another question now that we are on the band saw subject. The blade rides to the right edge of the top wheel when the bottom of the gullet is centered on the crown of the tire, but is running on the left side of the lower tire. At one time this issue of co-plane came on the forum and the last post that I recall is that this should be left alone as the manufacturer know more about the subject than the user does. I suppose that I need to phone Grizzly and ask them about it.
> ...


Snodgrass' video (Bandsaw Clinic) speaks to the subject...


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

Phil P said:


> Hi Jerry
> 
> I've always thought that the wheels should be co-planar. If they aren't you'd tend to end up with one or other of the tyres getting marked by the teeth. Equally on the issue of tension, if you leave a blade under tension all the time it can eventually pull the frame of the machine out, although this is more a small saw (sub 20in) issue than a big industrial saw problem (cast iron doesn't really move that much), but also with very narrow blades (1/4in and less) you tend to find that the blade pulls a permanent "track" into the tyres (where it runs over the crown) which will eventually lead to blade wander and/or poor tracking
> 
> ...


The first break was definitely at the weld, I did not look at these two recent breaks, have just assumed that they are at the weld too, especilally the one that had been welded recently, will know for sure when the person that is going to try to fix them inspects them. They are a Lenox dealer by the way in Fort Worth, Texas.

My saw from Grizzly was not in coplanar when it was delivered. I have tried all day to be in touch with Grizzly Tech Support, but can't get anybody to answer the phone, I'll try again next week to see what they say about the issue.

The blade rides on the left side of the tyre on the bottom wheel and on the right side on the top wheel when the tracking is adjusted as per Snodgrasses instructions, I guess I said that in an earlier post to tis thread.

All of this is just part of learning I guess,

Jerry


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

In one of Grizzy's video's (ie their 14" BS) they demonstrate the installation of a 6" riser. As part of the demo, they check to make sure the blades are co-planar after having installed the riser. I would think that the necessity of having your wheels in co-planar would be a constant throughout all size bandsaws.


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

TwoSkies57 said:


> In one of Grizzy's video's (ie their 14" BS) they demonstrate the installation of a 6" riser. As part of the demo, they check to make sure the blades are co-planar after having installed the riser. I would think that the necessity of having your wheels in co-planar would be a constant throughout all size bandsaws.


I have had this saw for almost three years and wish that I had talked to Grizzly earlier about it, but in my ignorance I just assumed that things were as Grizzly wantd them to be. Someplace along the way on this forum the issue was discussed and somebody made the remark not to worry about it as the manufacturer knew more about the issue than the user and to not worry about it which I did until now.

I asked my neighbor who is familiar with such matters to look at my saw yesterday when I installed the present blade. He was concernced about the wheels being so far out of coplanar. He said that he is not familiar with a saw as large as mine but he didn't think that the blade was tensioned enough but we stayed with the instructions in the manual and the saw is cutting just fine "so far" I might add, don't know what the tomorrow holds of course.

The instructions said to tentions the blade until the tension gauge was about at the thre to four mark. There is no way that the blade could ever be tensioned to that point on the scale. When we did what the manual said the scale was just barely off of zero, a long way from three. I'm starting to thing that I may have gotten a lemon and not known it until now. My neighbor as well as Harry say that they have never had a blade break. wish I could say that, I can't count the number of blades that I have broken in the time that I have had this saw.

Maybe I can contact Grizzly next week, they sure would not answer their phone today.
A bit frustrating to say the least, but there is no reason for me to get up tight about it. If the saw isn't easily fixed I am going to sell it anb buy another one. I like the Grizzly, but if I buy another one I will have them assure me in writing that the wheels are in coplanaer before shipping it to me, if, and I under score if, it turns out the wheels are supposed to be in line. This will indicate to me that the saw is a lemon and if I sell it I will discount it and tell the buyer why I'm selling the darn the thing. The buyer would almost have to live close to me as the shipping would be pretty hight, that saw is big and heavy.

Jerry


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

Ummmmmmm. My face is red.

I gave the manual to the saw to my wife after turning to the "Trouble Shooting Section" and asked her to see if she could find anything of "coplanar". I had her look because I can't see. well enough to read text anymore. She found it, I will have her read it to me later, soooooo, what can I say but admit being embarrassed.

Jerry

Edit: Now I am even more confused. I logged on to Alex Snotgrasses demo and that is where he says to not try to get the wheels in coplanar, I knew that I heard it someplace before and is why I had not been worrying about the matter. But, then comes the question, why would Grizzly put information in the manual about how to get the wheel in coplanar?????

Confusion in spades.

Jerry


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

Co-planar does not make sense, to me, any time there are crowns in the drive and driven wheels (be they pulleys or other form). Co-planar is important any time the wheel surfaces are flat and the belt, regardless of the material (leather, rubber, reinforced, metal, etc.), is also flat. In that manner the belt rides free on the surface and the wheels would have edges to keep the belt on the wheels.

When crowned not being co-planar will allow the belt/blade to auto-correct any time it tries to come off the crown...just like a hand held belt sander. Since the blade needs to stay in one place at the cutting area (guides, etc...) one of the wheels must allow the blade to auto-correct (bottom wheel). If the wheels were co-planar the blade would fall off the wheel(s) every time.

A blade is not flat as the teeth prevent it from being so...therefore, the crown on the wheels allow the lower wheel to move the blade in the opposite direction of the upper wheel and allows the center of the blade (between the guides) to stay in position. This is why the tension should be released so as not to form a "memory" in the blade.

So I remember being taught on the "theory of operation" of belts and wheels (meat saws, tractors, sanders, etc...). I have not found anything different in any tool or machine with a "suspended" belt/blade. I was not surprised by Alex Snodgrass' point in his video.

As to Grizzly stating that co-planar is important...surprising...

I would also note that the mechanical relationship between the tension gauge and the actual tension can never be accurate. It is dependent on the spring and length of the blade. That relationship can only be accurate if the spring is precisely accurate, its length is precisely accurate from saw to saw and the length of the blade is precisely cut. Not likely that all of that criteria can be met. Even the tire dimensions can affect it over time and that is assuming they are always originally precisely formed.

I would research much more before getting rid of the saw or attempting to make the wheels co-planar...

This is based on my learnings and experiences...I would ask the mechanical engineers and experienced wood-workers to chime in...I am not an expert so just throwing in my 1 1/2 cents...

Good luck...


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

Nickp said:


> Co-planar does not make sense, to me, any time there are crowns in the drive and driven wheels (be they pulleys or other form). Co-planar is important any time the wheel surfaces are flat and the belt, regardless of the material (leather, rubber, reinforced, metal, etc.), is also flat. In that manner the belt rides free on the surface and the wheels would have edges to keep the belt on the wheels.
> 
> When crowned not being co-planar will allow the belt/blade to auto-correct any time it tries to come off the crown...just like a hand held belt sander. Since the blade needs to stay in one place at the cutting area (guides, etc...) one of the wheels must allow the blade to auto-correct (bottom wheel). If the wheels were co-planar the blade would fall off the wheel(s) every time.
> 
> ...


What Nick is saying in this post makes sense to me, I just have to wonder why some sources of how to set up a saw differ so much from one to another. 

Jerry


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Nickp said:


> Co-planar does not make sense, to me


That might be the case for small diameter rollers, but is just plain wrong for a bandsaw which has large diameter wheels.

About 15 years back I bought a 28in Agazanni. As delivered it kept throwing blades off. Rather than getting the dealer out I talked to the manufacturer in Italy directly. Their advice was to take the table off, *make sure that the wheels were more or less co-planar (using a long straight batten) and start from there* because without doing that I'd never get the thing to track properly. The upper wheel of every band saw I've worked on has the ability to tilt on the horizontal axis, but the amount it needs to do so varies very slightly for each blade depending on how straight the weld is, stretch in the blade, tyre wear, etc. That tilting does push the upper wheel slightly out of alignment with the lower wheel, but by a tiny amount. If the wheels are too far out of co-planer to start with you end up running the teeth against one of the tyres which will damage it, especially if you are using carbide or stellite tooth blades or blades with a heavy hook tooth tooth form.

So whilst your comment:


Nickp said:


> If the wheels were co-planar the blade would fall off the wheel(s) every time.


is true to an extent, the wheels must be co-planar to start with and the top wheel is then tilted to control blade tracking in my "limited" experience......



Nickp said:


> I would also note that the mechanical relationship between the tension gauge and the actual tension can never be accurate.


I cannot disagree with that, however it is a reasonable indicator, *providing the operator takes the time to calibrate it*. The true test of whether a woodworking blade is insufficiently tensioned is that it will bow in cut (i.e. the cut won't be vertical when fed at normal speed into a tall block of timber). On bigger saws the method of testing tension is to use something like a Starrett tension gauge which is clamped to the blade before it is tensioned and which directly reads out in pounds - but unless you are running a resaw with wide (I mean 2 to 6in wide) blades it's not worth spending the money



Nickp said:


> This is based on my learnings and experiences...I would ask the mechanical engineers and experienced wood-workers to chime in...I am not an expert so just throwing in my 1 1/2 cents...


My comments are based on being a qualified joiner and wood machinist and are not made lightly. Trying to get a saw to track properly without at least starting from a known point (i.e. being co-planar) is a bit like trying to set the tracking on a car which has had a corner collision without first checking that the chassis is square. And it will potentially be as successful

Regards

Phil


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

Phil P said:


> That might be the case for small diameter rollers, but is just plain wrong for a bandsaw which has large diameter wheels.
> 
> About 15 years back I bought a 28in Agazanni. As delivered it kept throwing blades off. Rather than getting the dealer out I talked to the manufacturer in Italy directly. Their advice was to take the table off, *make sure that the wheels were more or less co-planar (using a long straight batten) and start from there* because without doing that I'd never get the thing to track properly. The upper wheel of every band saw I've worked on has the ability to tilt on the horizontal axis, but the amount it needs to do so varies very slightly for each blade depending on how straight the weld is, stretch in the blade, tyre wear, etc. That tilting does push the upper wheel slightly out of alignment with the lower wheel, but by a tiny amount. If the wheels are too far out of co-planer to start with you end up running the teeth against one of the tyres which will damage it, especially if you are using carbide or stellite tooth blades or blades with a heavy hook tooth tooth form.
> 
> ...


This I getting more and more confusing. Phil, I have never had a problem with tracking and my re-cuts are perfect or at least extremely good, my only problem is that the blades are breaking and this has led me to wonder if even if the tracking is correct would the issue of coplanar contribute to the breaking of the blades.

Because there is such a wide difference in the opinions on coplanar, I am beginning to wonder if Grizzly even know the answer. I had talked to them several months ago about tracking and they wanted me to set the blade dead center on the crown instead of what Snodgrass says, so you can see why I'm confused as to who knows the answer. I certainly respect Phil's expertise on such matters, but I have to also respect Nicks explanation and what Snodgrass says.

Jerry


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## Ghidrah (Oct 21, 2008)

Mr. Bowen if you left the band tensioned once too often or for too long a period of time you could very well have deformed tires which may contribute to the high rate of breakage. As others have probably said lower the tension, check out the flutter method on the web. I only have timber wolf bands, many of them are low tension bands.


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

Ghidrah said:


> Mr. Bowen if you left the band tensioned once too often or for too long a period of time you could very well have deformed tires which may contribute to the high rate of breakage. As others have probably said lower the tension, check out the flutter method on the web. I only have timber wolf bands, many of them are low tension bands.



Ronald,

That's very possible and could well be the problem, makes sense as I have at times forgotten to de-tension the blade and ias you say Ronald, it the tension was overly tight the tires could have distorted.

A good reason for ignorant people like myself to not spend money on tools that they don't know anything about. By ignorant I do not mean stupid, I mean without knowledge, just want to make that clear.

Kinda like it might be a good thing to learn to swim before going near the water. This is a family joke as I had an aunt years ago that said that whe would let her kids go near the water until they knew how to swim.

If the problem is indeed with the tires, and it may be as I said, it seems that this problem would be a normal thing to happen when people purchased their first BS as it is so easy to both over tension a blade and also to forget to take the tension off.

Ny neighbor told me that he never takes the tension off of his BS blade and sets for months that way. He also told me that he didn't think that my blade was as tight as he thought it should be. But he also said that he had never used a saw a large as mine is, so, what he said probably does not apply to my saw.

Right now, I have set the saw up one more time following the Snodgrass instructions as carefully as I can and if the blade breaks, I will consider replacing the tires as they might well be the culprit. Thank you Ronaald for pointing this out to me.

Other than breaking a blade do you know of anyway to tell if the tires are deformed, the appear to be just as they were when new except for being dirty, I may try to clean then and see if the dark area where the blade is tracking is dirt and dibri or worn spots.

Jerry


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

I went out to the shop and checked the profile of the tires and looked for any flat spots that may have been caused by what Ronald mentioned might be the problem,

I could not, by feel, any way, find any distortion in the tires at all. I need to say that the dark area on the tires when the blade runs is dead center on the bottom wheel and of course off to the right on the top wheel due to the blade being set so the the gullet is centered.

So, I'm back to the issue of just running the saw until the blade breaks and if does not then believeing that I finally have it right.


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Hi Jerry

If you noticed I asked early on about tension and about where the blades had broken. As you are probably now aware the starting advice to tuning a bandsaw is often to throw away the supplied blade, to fit a good quality blade, tension it properly and then start hunting down any issues.

But in your case this shouldn't be so because the blades you are talking about are industrial spec bandsaw blades. It is a fact of life, however, that the smaller the diameter of the bandsaw wheel the greater the amount of flexing the weld will be subjected to every time the weld reaches and leaves the wheel. With TriMasters this will be exacerbated by the extra thickness of the blades (they are very thick in comparison to carbon steel or bimetallic blades). To emphasise this point it is worth noting that in the early days of the Trimaster (about 15 years back) Lenox actually advised _against_ the use of the Trimaster on saws with wheels smaller than 24in/600mm because of problems with weld failures. It was only when they changed the technique used to make the welds that this advice was dropped. It's also worth noting that weld falure occurs much more frequently on smaller saws than bigger ones. So with that in mind, did the repairer examine the break and give you any feed back?

From when I used to run Trimasters I can recall the Lenox technical rep advising me to run a very high tension on the blades in order to achieve the maximum beam strength and avoid wowing, which can also lead to premature failure of the weld. So this afternoon I've been off and trawled through some very old emails to find the actual figures. Turns out that for Trimaster blades the technical rep in the UK recommended *25,000 psi* as the recommended figure for resawing, especially with power feed, and a minimum of 15,000 psi for more general use (as a comparison the PBR-HD we had access to required 35,000 psi or more on 3in stellite blades). These are high figures, and you need to be certain that your saw can handle them (it's 17in, so that should be OK), especially when you consider that that the average 14in Delta-clone is pushed to take a 3/4in thin carbon steel blade to much over 12,000 psi without crushing the spring flat and damaging bearings (based on comments from both Louis Iturra or Lonnie Bird). Personally I never ran my blades at low pressure (under 15,000 psi), but I never experienced a breakage, never had tracking or alignment problems, so your primary issue might well be that you just aren't running enough blade tension. That, and the fact that these blades are radically different to the run of the mill carbide blades most woodworkers use means I'd recommend that you talk _directly_ to Lenox Saw's technical department to see what they have to say on the subject rather than taking general advice aimed at low pressure carbon steel blades which are a very different animal

Regards

Phil


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

Thanks, Phil...


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

Phil P said:


> Hi Jerry
> 
> If you noticed I asked early on about tension and about where the blades had broken. As you are probably now aware the starting advice to tuning a bandsaw is often to throw away the supplied blade, to fit a good quality blade, tension it properly and then start hunting down any issues.
> 
> ...


Very interesting Phil,

I did not get any feed back from the guy that I talked to at the company that welded the first blade for me. However, I assumed, and that can be a mistake of course, that since he is a Lenox dealer and did the work under warranty that that the bread was indeed at the weld or it would not have been covered under warranty. Just assumption on my part I admit.

The same man is the one that told me recently when that same blade immediately brokd again that my problem probably was to much tension. Also the blade is only .025" thick which about the same as lessor blades I think, you have we wondering again.

I have, in the past broken a couple of one inch Timberwolve blades on the saw which, untll your recent post, had led me to believe that I have indeed been over tensionion all of my blades an of course have been hoping that by letting off on the tension would cure my problems. That is yet to be known.

I will talk directly to Lenox, not the Lenox dealer next week about the matter.

I will also talk to the dealer, I sent him a link to the Snodgrass demo just to see what he has to say about it. The guy I'm talking to at the dealership in Ft. Worth is extremely friendly, but in here in Texas, hell, everybody is friendly compared to up north so that doesn't tell me much.

This has turned into an interesting thread and I'm not through yet. Maybe I need to just fire up the saw and push it as hard as I can and try to break the blade, I don't mean push the stock into the blade, I mean just make lots of re-saw cuts to see if the blade is going to hold up or not. I'm sure that would really tell me anything of value even the blade did not break, it would be my luck that after I cut a stack of wood with it that it would break about the time that I'm in the middle of a project and don't want to stop and change blades. Do I sound pessimistic, well, I am a little bit I guess.

Actually, I am more curious than anything I guess as to what is going on.

Time will tell, I'm not going to push the saw as I described above, just use it in my normal manner and see what happens, but will try to talk to both Grizzly and Lenox.

Jerry


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