# Cabinets with minimal tools - Making do...



## reikimaster (Sep 29, 2005)

Ran the heater in the shop yesterday to get a feel for how well equipped I am (or ill equipped, as the case may be) to cut panels out of 3/4" plywood for making cabinets for my kitchen. I learned a lot.

#1 My BTS15 is a "hobby" saw at best. The fence isn't square to the blade, there is no miter slot so I can't really make a sliding panel cutting sled, and the sliding table doesn't have enough "slide" to do panel cutting. And the tearout isn't pretty and there's no way for me to make a practical zero clearance throat plate for the BTS15. 

Without money in the budget for a new table saw (although I really like the Rigid R4512) I am looking at making do with what I have. 

I made circular saw guide from 1/4" hardboard. It produces a clean cut, but repeatability becomes an issue. If I can't accurately position that guide from one piece of wood to another, I get pieces that aren't EXACTLY the same size. They might be only 1/32 off but if it's 1/32 wider at one end and 1/32 narrower at the other, then it's off by 1/16. There's also a tiny bit of "wander" in the cut. It looks really straight to eyeball it, but it's not laser straight. I may be able to cure some of that by simply being much more careful to be sure the saw is staying flat on the guide and tight to the fence. 

So now I'm thinking that my guide needs a "fence" on the bottom. Something with "stops" that will allow me to put the guide on a pice of plywood and push the stops up against a reference edge and the guide will be positioned exactly at a set width.

So, for example, if I have a lot of 11-1/2" wide panels to cut, I have a guide made for those panels.

I fully understand that I'm not going to open a cabinet shop this way. I just need to be as accurate as possible and get these cabinets built for my kitchen. I know 1/32 isn't terrible, but I also know I don't want to compound that in the same way over 4 cabinets in a row. Or.... maybe it's not as bad as all that and I'm being overly cautious. These are "cottage" cabinets (although not at a cottage... they'll be in my kitchen) and they'll be painted, not stained. I was thinking about doing these as frameless but I think they'll be getting face frames instead. 

I just can't seem to justify $500 for a new table saw plus whatever it would cost for some zero clearance throat plates and probably a new blade (not sure what the Rigid comes with for a blade). I'd be over $600 real easy. That would be a tough sell for the wife I think.

thoughts? I count on you guys. I don't have anyone around me that does this stuff.


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## Cochese (Jan 12, 2010)

There should be a way to adjust the fence at the back to get is square to the blade, a screw. That'll be your first step. Pulling forward on the fence when you lock it down should help the back not wander.

The next thing you can do is make a panel with a miter slot in it, as the guy in the link below did, and that will lead you to the ability to make a sled. You'll also see how he made his zero clearance insert. Either way you'll get your zero clearance ability.

The first thing you need to do, though, is get a decent blade on there if you're still using the stock one. A Diablo thin-kerf (40T is a good starter) or an Onsrud blade will help tremendously. Won't break the budget either.

When you're ready to buy a 4512, take a Harbor Freight coupon with you and find a store that will accept it. Instant $100 off. Then you'll have your saw, your good blade and a ZC insert will set you back only $27 or make your own. Or there's plenty of good saws on Craigslist for that unless you live in the boonies.

Shop Improvements #3: Ryobi BTS15 Tablesaw Mods - by wolflrv @ LumberJocks.com ~ woodworking community


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## reikimaster (Sep 29, 2005)

Cocheseuga said:


> When you're ready to buy a 4512, take a Harbor Freight coupon with you and find a store that will accept it. Instant $100 off.


A Harbor Freight coupon? Where does one find a $100 off coupon from Harbor Freight that relates to a table saw? Or this particular table saw?

thanks


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## Cochese (Jan 12, 2010)

reikimaster said:


> A Harbor Freight coupon? Where does one find a $100 off coupon from Harbor Freight that relates to a table saw? Or this particular table saw?
> 
> thanks


20% off coupons are found in Wood, and other magazines every month. It's up to the manager if they take them or not, but it is a competitor's coupon.


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## reikimaster (Sep 29, 2005)

Hmmmm... just found one in the local paper that came yesterday. If I wanted to use one of these, do you call ahead or do you go in and say "I'll take it if you honor competitor's coupons." ?
Still not sure I could get this one past the wife, but maybe.....


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## The Warthog (Nov 29, 2010)

I've bought a number of pieces of used equipment off used for sale sites that I could not have afforded new, and they work well. Try looking for a used saw, there's likely to be a good one sitting in someone's basement looking for a new owner.


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## paduke (Mar 28, 2010)

I've used benchtop TS for years in the field. I own a Bosch. Dewalt makes the most accurate followed by bosch and ridgid. While shop accuracy is not automatic the fences on inexpensive BT TS are adequate for your task. When setting your fence dimension, raise the blade full height, measure from blade to fence front and back. Lock fence. If it seems loose there is usually a mechanism to tighten the fence lock on the outfeed end of the fence. 
For cross cuts a 12" aluminum speed square as a guide for a circular saw does well. 

Inset doors require more accuracy than overlay doors so you might rethink that part of your project. 

Grainger sells 1/8" HDPE which could be a simple way to fabricate your insert.


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## OPG3 (Jan 9, 2011)

Charlie, I am fortunate to have a very nice table saw and plenty of room in my shop to get all around it with no problems, but often if I am in need of super-straight cuts in sheet goods such as plywood or MDF; I use a properly clamped straightedge to guide my circular saw along a carefully located route. I keep sharp blades on my saws and often do the cutting with the sheet being cut atop of foam sheathing - which gives the sheet the effect of a ZC insert and minimizes rough edges. It works for me! *OPG3*


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## reikimaster (Sep 29, 2005)

I just went out there and tried a couple things. 
#1 I tightened up the fence. 
I still have to use my steel rule to be sure the leading edge of the blade is exactly the same distance from the fence as the trailing edge, but I can get it so it cuts straight. Just have to take my time setting it. It's a little fiddly. 

Once I got that done I still had the issue of tearout to deal with. I have some 1/8 inch hardboard. It's actually like a melamine beadboard on one side, and I discovered even THAT was too thick to make a zero clearance throat plate out of. It was proud of the table. So I cut a piece wide enough to support the width of the piece I was cutting and the depth of my saw table (front to back) and laid it on the table on just one side of the blad, tight to the blade, and I TAPED it to the front edge (so it wouldn't push) and the back edge (so it wouldn't swing side to side). I taped it on with blue painter's tape just to try this. Basically it's zero clearance on the "good" side of the blade.

It WORKED! No tearout at all.

The tape on the front edge of that hardboard doesn't seem to affect anything at all. The tape on the back edge, however..... well it catches the plywood. So while I now know it would WORK, I have to find a way to secure the back without coming up over the top edge of the hardboard. Maybe use WIDE tape and run it front to back. Maybe use a wider piece of hardboard and bring the blade up through it so at the back I can just tape it on the waste side of the blade.

With this setup I was able to make 2 panels, about 20 inches long, the same width exactly. Nice clean cuts. I believe this is as good as I'm going to get from this saw. I need to make a bunch of panels for shallow cabinets (side panels 11-1/2 inches by 31 inches tall) and some the same depth but a bit taller (48 tall). And of course the bottoms. I'm reasonably confident I can do those panels now. I have to make one cabinet 18 inches deep and 80-1/2 inches tall. And a couple of base cabinets standard depth. Might have to get creative on those as my saw won't open that wide.  Only 4 standard depth base cabinets.


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## Cochese (Jan 12, 2010)

reikimaster said:


> Once I got that done I still had the issue of tearout to deal with. I have some 1/8 inch hardboard. It's actually like a melamine beadboard on one side, and I discovered even THAT was too thick to make a zero clearance throat plate out of. It was proud of the table. So I cut a piece wide enough to support the width of the piece I was cutting and the depth of my saw table (front to back) and laid it on the table on just one side of the blad, tight to the blade, and I TAPED it to the front edge (so it wouldn't push) and the back edge (so it wouldn't swing side to side). I taped it on with blue painter's tape just to try this. Basically it's zero clearance on the "good" side of the blade.
> 
> It WORKED! No tearout at all.


When the tape loosens, and the hardboard hits you in the head when it touches 'more' of the blade, you'll understand that this is a horrible idea.

Please, go take it off right now. The only things on the surface of your saw need to be items that are bolted or latched to it, or your workpiece. Nothing else, and certainly not touching the blade.


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## reikimaster (Sep 29, 2005)

OPG3 said:


> Charlie, I am fortunate to have a very nice table saw and plenty of room in my shop to get all around it with no problems, but often if I am in need of super-straight cuts in sheet goods such as plywood or MDF; I use a properly clamped straightedge to guide my circular saw along a carefully located route. I keep sharp blades on my saws and often do the cutting with the sheet being cut atop of foam sheathing - which gives the sheet the effect of a ZC insert and minimizes rough edges. It works for me! *OPG3*


OPG3, thanks for this! I'd love to be able to cut all these panels a little over-sized and then just final size them on the table saw, but it's looking like that may not be how this is all going to work out. It's going to take time to set up for each cut, but I may be able to come up with a couple of tricks to make the setup less painful


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## reikimaster (Sep 29, 2005)

Cocheseuga said:


> When the tape loosens, and the hardboard hits you in the head when it touches 'more' of the blade, you'll understand that this is a horrible idea.
> 
> Please, go take it off right now. The only things on the surface of your saw need to be items that are bolted or latched to it, or your workpiece. Nothing else, and certainly not touching the blade.


Absolutely right and I thought about how dumb it was after I explained what I had done. So... it won't be taped (you're right... what was I thinking?) but the place where my sliding table goes.... with the sliding table removed I can make a wooden insert 3/4 inch thick and bolted to the table from underneath like the sliding table... using the same bolt holes. I could then secure a hardboard table cover to that (using screws, not tape).

Or... I could beg the wife to let me get a new saw.... right now, risk of injury seems preferable to begging the wife for a new saw. 

No.... seriously though... all this MacGuyvering stuff has me really looking at what's safe and what isn't. The tape isn't safe. If a new saw gets the cabinets done without a trip to the hospital, then it might just be real good insurance. I've seen stuff fly off a saw (thankfully, someone else and not me) and I don't want to even think about projectiles from the saw. Table saws are dangerous enough without "modifying" them.


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## Cochese (Jan 12, 2010)

What kind of blade are you using, BTW?


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## reikimaster (Sep 29, 2005)

Cocheseuga said:


> What kind of blade are you using, BTW?


Diablo 10 inch 80 tooth.


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## Cochese (Jan 12, 2010)

If I may make a suggestion, higher tooth blades are typically better suited to miter saws. That's where I have my Diablo 80T. My Diablo 40T is my general, all purpose blade and I save my 24T for hardwoods. That might not help with your tearout, but I think you'll be happier with the cuts.

You can also try to make ZCTPs out of Lexan, you can find it at Home Depot, I forget exactly where. Perhaps near the doors section, they bundle it with their small glass panels. Take your plate with you to check thickness. When you find one that works at the thinnest part, take additional pieces and build up the interior thickness with contact cement or epoxy for structural support. I assume you know how to make the slot for the blade.


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## reikimaster (Sep 29, 2005)

Well I learned something tonight.... wife doesn't understand the difference between a $119 saw and a $500 saw. "You HAVE a table saw. What would getting a NEW one do for you?"

Had I been thinking quicker I might have said, "Ask NOT what a new saw can do for me! Ask what a new saw can do for YOU!" ..... but I wasn't quick, hehehehe...

I'm going to try making a saw guide with an edge guide. Why? Well the saw guide gave me a nice CUT, but I had to depend on my eyeballs to line it up to pencil marks. My eyeballs are old, so lining it up for the next cut meant I could be off a little either in making the pencil mark or in getting the edge guide lined up again. So.... if I attach some arms to the edge guide and slot them I can attach an edge stop to the guide, adjust it once, and each subsequent cut should be the same as the first.

In other words, I'm taking ME out of the equation once the guide is set up. I should be able to put the stop against an edge and get the same cut each time. Oh... I'd set the stop against the edge and then put a clamp on each arm so the guide couldn't push while I'm cutting and holding the saw tight against the guide.

Tomorrow I'll spend some time making the parts and putting them together and give this a try. Theoretically it should work. I mean all I'm adding is a width adjuster setting the saw cut a certain distance from an edge. If this lets me repeat cuts accurately, then I really don't need to buy a new saw. 

Although that Ridgid does look nice..... just wonder how much I'd use it after the kitchen is done.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

I'm somewhat puzzled by fairly frequent references to commercially acquired, zero clearance inserts for table saws(?)...
I just assumed pretty much everyone made their own from plywood scrap.
I simply use my Delta factory one as a template, jigsaw out a bunch, and slowly run the fully depressed blade up through a new one to make the blade slot. 
There are cast tabs on my table that support the inserts; four wood screws set into the bottom of the insert...over the tabs... allow for precise flush surface adjustment.
They're cheap, accurate and disposable (dado slots etc.). Never caused me any grief. Why would I buy them?
Am I missing something?


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## Cochese (Jan 12, 2010)

DaninVan said:


> I'm somewhat puzzled by fairly frequent references to commercially acquired, zero clearance inserts for table saws(?)...
> I just assumed pretty much everyone made their own from plywood scrap.
> I simply use my Delta factory one as a template, jigsaw out a bunch, and slowly run the fully depressed blade up through a new one to make the blade slot.
> There are cast tabs on my table that support the inserts; four wood screws set into the bottom of the insert...over the tabs... allow for precise flush surface adjustment.
> ...


Not all throat plates, and more specifically, not all throat plate mounting systems are made equally. Some are easy to make, some the mounting is so frustrating that making it out of most materials renders it brittle and prone to breaking.

For myself, there's a guy who makes ZCTPs and guards for my saw and I bought a set from him awhile back. I could probably copy it and make my own, but it's so nice and was rather inexpensive (3 for $30) why waste my time?


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## reikimaster (Sep 29, 2005)

DaninVan said:


> I'm somewhat puzzled by fairly frequent references to commercially acquired, zero clearance inserts for table saws(?)...
> I just assumed pretty much everyone made their own from plywood scrap.
> I simply use my Delta factory one as a template, jigsaw out a bunch, and slowly run the fully depressed blade up through a new one to make the blade slot.
> There are cast tabs on my table that support the inserts; four wood screws set into the bottom of the insert...over the tabs... allow for precise flush surface adjustment.
> ...


You might have missed that I have a Ryobi BTS15. The throat plate is thinner than 1/8 inch. The stock one is almost like mild spring steel. I tried setting a piece of 1/8 inch hardboard in there and it was proud of the table. Not sure I trust making a throat plate out of anything I have here with an edge thickness of less than an eighth inch.... and fastened through it no less. I had considered making a full table overlay of 1/8 inch hardboard (fastened securely in several locations), but my fence won't clear it and I'm not sure it would stay flat to the table so I might just be introducing a whole other set of issues. 

I'm working on making an edge guide but had to break for lunch


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi

I have made my own for years (for the OLD Atlas cast iron saw and the newer Craftsman) 1/8" is not a big deal just put in on the router table and mill a flat side (rabbit) on the bottom side ,most sit on a lip in the table saw..I use 1/4" to 1/2" thick stock most of the time for the insert.

===


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## reikimaster (Sep 29, 2005)

bobj3 said:


> Hi
> 
> I have made my own for years (for the OLD Atlas cast iron saw and the newer Craftsman) 1/8" is not a big deal just put in on the router table and mill a flat side (rabbit) on the bottom side ,most sit on a lip in the table saw..I use 1/4" to 1/2" thick stock most of the time for the insert.
> 
> ===


Bobj3, 
an eighth is too thick! 
I'm guessing I'll be at about 3/32 or possibly as thin as 5/64 in order to get it flush with the table top. Then I still have to countersink the screw holes to fasten it down. I'm still going to try it, but very carefully. 

The good news is..... my adjustable edge guide works. I cut 2 panels exactly the same size. Getting it set up is a bit tedious. Adjusting so it's exactly parallel to the edge from which you're referencing. But once it's set, it can be moved to the next piece and it repeats quite well. Not only did I get 2 pieces exactly the same, but if I REVERSE one piece, all edges still line up perfectly. That means I'm parallel. 

I have it set at 11-3/4" right now. I needed to make sure I had it working. Now I have to take it down to 11-1/4" and hope like heck I can keep it parallel. The stock I'm practicing on is enough to build one of the cabinets. I bought it as trial stock, but bought it with the idea that if we liked the cabinet, we'd simply USE it. I don't have any extra at this point. If I screw up a panel, I can't build the cabinet unless I go get more stock  hehehehe.... no pressure though.


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## reikimaster (Sep 29, 2005)

*Edge Guide with an attitude*

Pics of the edge guide...
One pic of it just hanging on a piece of a solid core door blank. One showing close-up of the adjustment. One showing the underside where the adjustment arm is let in so the MDF portion of the guide has a flat surface to attach to.
And one of it sitting on the 2 panels I just cut for testing. 

The darn thing works! It's a bit fiddly setting up the clamping for each cut. Not like just running them through a table saw, but.... it's working. At least for these 12" cabs. I'll have to make a couple other sets of arms for the 18" deep cabinet and the 24" cabinets.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Yes, I _did_ miss the part about the 1/8" full circumference relief. Bobj3 seems to have addressed that in his comment above ...
_"...just put in on the router table and mill a flat side (rabbit) on the bottom side, most sit on a lip in the table saw..."_
I guess I should consider myself lucky that the Delta has a deep relief; one less step. 

Quote: ".... right now, risk of injury seems preferable to begging the wife for a new saw. "
Pretty much the same result? lol


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Reikimaster; it just flashed on me! Using the power of the internet, and RouterForums.com, you could muster support via a petition to convince She Who Must Be Obeyed that you _really do need _a new tablesaw!!


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## Cochese (Jan 12, 2010)

Find some of those 'Hey, watch this' videos of small table saws. Tell you need better safety features.

Table Saw Kickback Demonstration - Video


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## reikimaster (Sep 29, 2005)

DaninVan said:


> Reikimaster; it just flashed on me! Using the power of the internet, and RouterForums.com, you could muster support via a petition to convince She Who Must Be Obeyed that you _really do need _a new tablesaw!!


It's She Who Must Be Obeyed that wants me to build the cabinets! heheheh

I mean... I have a new workshop, I have tools, I MUST be able to build something as simple as kitchen cabinets, right?

I built the workshop, I remodeled 2 bathrooms at our other house (didn't build the cabinets though), made workbenches, built her a pergola for her gardening area. I have several hand saws, band saw, circular saw, jig saw, table saw, ... "you have all KINDS of saws! Why would you need a DIFFERENT one?"

It's not ME that needs the new table saw. It's HER. She has no concept that one table saw is any different from the next other than price. They all have spinning blades and "that fence thing that moves". So therefore they must all do the same thing, right? They cut stuff. I can do these cabinets without a new table saw. It's just going to take a lot longer. And nothing starts until EVERYTHING is ready to go.

So SHE's the one that needs a new table saw, not me. 

Work on that for me, will ya? heheheh


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## PigBear (Dec 14, 2010)

Hi reikimaster,

I was in the same boat with a small super-cheap table saw and needing to cut plywood panels.

I bought a couple of these at Rockler (one smaller and one of the biggest they make that will span a full sheet of plywood):










I find that you do need to square it at each end when setting it up but after you clamp it down it won't move and you can just follow it with a circ saw to cut your panels.

Ultimately I watched Craig's List for a bit and bought a used Ridgid TS3650 for a couple hundred. Haven't tried to cut a panel on it yet but should be a lot easier and the Ridgid is really accurate.


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## reikimaster (Sep 29, 2005)

*I think the UNIVERSE wants me to get a new table saw....*

So I went to check out a new supplier for plywood to make the cabinet boxes. And hardwood for face frames and stuff.

He has birch plywood (cabinets will be painted) .... nice stuff.... for $20 a sheet LESS than what I had planned for (based on what I was seeing at the BORG). I can also get my bamboo plywood from him and as long as I don't want it right now (that part of the project is at least 3 months out) I won't pay any freight AND they'll bring it right to my house since the order is over $300. 

What I'm saving in freight and plywood ALONE is almost enough to buy that new Ridgid R4512.

Also part of the conversation was, "Your edge guide might be ok for one cabinet, but you have several to build. Your installation will be a nightmare if your off a little bit here and a little bit there. And the new table saw will be a lot safer for you."

There's that "safety" thing again. I think the universe is trying to tell me something.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Reikimaster; see? If you'd bought a really 'nice' saw in the first place, you wouldn't be having this discussion with SWMBO _now_, Grasshopper ...


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## reikimaster (Sep 29, 2005)

DaninVan said:


> Reikimaster; see? If you'd bought a really 'nice' saw in the first place, you wouldn't be having this discussion with SWMBO _now_, Grasshopper ...


As I'm sure is the case with a whole lotta people, I didn't have the money for a really nice saw in the first place. So I just bought a minimum saw that would do what I needed. 

What's changed?

The "do what I needed" part has changed. I now need more saw. hehehehe


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Just pulling your chain, Reikmaster; for most of us cost vs functionality is _always_ a trade-off. The trick is to not fall into the 'pay me now or pay me later' bear-pit...


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## reikimaster (Sep 29, 2005)

Wife told me tonight to go get the saw. Not sure if she means it or just wants me to stop talking about it 
Regardless.... if the box will fit in my van I'll go get it tomorrow. I won't be able to unload it by myself though. And I don't have a wagon. Gotta figure out how to get it out back to the workshop once I get it home. 

AND.... gotta figure out how to rearrange the shop so it'll FIT in there!

AND, I just found out I'm saving $200 in shipping from another supplier (I won't be using) because I can get the material locally and not have to freight it in. Between that and saving a hundred or more on plywood, that new R4512 is only hitting the budget by about $200 (or less). Gonna go out and measure the van's side door openings and see if I can side-load it rather than just pushing it into the back. Then I REALLY have to consider how I'm going to unload it and get it back to the shop.


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