# What Is The Best Deal for a 4 Foot by 4 Foot Hi Accuracy Hi Repeatability Machine



## Clay. (Apr 30, 2019)

I know nothing about wood working, I want to get into hi quality 3d wood carving basically I would like to learn how to make very detailed wood carvings of animals, nature, or what ever I want to learn how to make it look good like the wood carved pictures on etsy

I would greatly appreciate any info or opinions 

I am in Texas and I prefer it to be shipped to me from the USA unless there is something I dont know

I dont care about if free software comes with machine

Not sure if I should care about a getting a machine with a lot of support like a forum or a machine that is popular

4 axis for carving logs is not that important to me, might be nice to get a machine that I could add it later on maybe years from now but I could live without it


this place says they are wholesale and that is why they can sell cheaper, is there a reason why I should not go with this machine for such a low price ?
IEC1212 CNC Router $3,199.00


this looks like the machine above but i guess it is more because they are not the wholesaler ?
Automation Technologies KL-1212 CNC Router 48 x 48 inch $6,199


JCUT-1212 $2950 on ebay free shipping from china


Pilot Pro 5050 DIY Kit $6,100.00 
5050 Stand $1400.00


Pilot Pro 5050 Assembled $6,550.00
5050 Stand $1400.00


shark HD4 extended $4,999.99
2 foot by 4 foot which is smaller than I want anyways
I was interested in shark HD4 but then I read a lot of people saying something about the machine sways or what ever because it has plastic where it should have metal and the machine can not do what other machine can do because of this


Camaster Stinger II SR-44 Starting at $12,995 


Laguna Swift CNC Router 4′ x 4′ 3HP $13,645


Axiom Elite Series AR16 ELITE $13,999


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## difalkner (Jan 3, 2012)

Welcome to the forum, Clay! Add your first name to your profile so it shows in the side panel. Add your location, as well. That often helps us to help you.

What space and power do you have available? The footprint of the machine needs to be considered along with the bed size. Some 4x4 machines are pretty large and others just slightly larger than the bed.

Of the ones you mentioned, and budget fitting, I would get the CAMaster. The handful of guys I know who have that machine really like them. 

Do you have the supporting woodshop to prepare your stock for cutting on the CNC?

David


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## Clay. (Apr 30, 2019)

woodshop not sure if that is the name of some software 

if that is not the name of some software no i am going to try to fit it in a room in the house

why is the camaster better ?

can the camaster make more finer detail ? this is mostly only thing i care about

the wholesaler that sells the IEC1212 CNC Router $3,199, has a 4x8 foot IEP1325 machine that has better specs for details than the IEC1212
and it is $4,999

there is a ebay seller selling a 1325 4x8 foot for $3,777
if you google "1325 router furniture cabinet door machine on sale free ship for May Day Holiday"

i dont understand what makes camaster a better deal for someone like me that just wants to learn how make art pictures out of wood to sell


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## BalloonEngineer (Mar 27, 2009)

Most of those cheaper machines ship from china, and shipping (and tariffs) is not included in those prices. Shipping can be a significant additional cost (there is usually no shipping included on any of the machines prices). They will also come with little to no documentation, training or support. Depending on your experience and knowledge, these can be very important. Those with "free" shipping is usually only to the nearest ocean port - you will be responsible for picking up from port (and paying any tariffs due) and shipment to your location. Not too bad if you live in Long Beach, more of an issue if you live in Denver.

The automation technologies machine is one of the Chinese machines, but imported by a US company that will provide documentation and support.

CAMaster is US built, well documented and well supported, with factory training available, which is why it has been recommended. 

There are other options in the price range, including shopsabre or shopbot. One option you may wish to consider is a kit machine from CNC Router Parts or Fineline Automation. You would need to assemble yourself, but they are good machines at a lower price.

Note that 3D carvings are very time consuming, especially one anywhere near the 4 x 4 size. They can easily take 20 hours or more. The more detail you want (and the smaller bit used to cut it) the longer it takes. Here the speed of the machine can play a big role, a machine that can 3d carve at 400ipm will take much less time than one that can only do it at 100ipm. Do not be mislead by the quoted "rapid" speeds, try to find cutting speeds.

When David asked about the rest of the shop, it was referring to tools to prepare large glue ups (need to be able to joint and plane and cut boards to size before glue ups, or before putting onto CNC. You will also need dust collection (a vacuum won't be enough). Also most of those machines require 220V power. Most people would not want them in the house (probably can't fit through anything smaller than a garage door anyway). Off the machine, you will need to sand and apply a finish to create a finished carving. 

How are you intending to create the artwork (designs) to cut? Some of the software to create 3d models runs $1600 and up, and there is a signifiant learning curve. Between the time it takes to create the files, and the time it takes to run them, such carvings must often sell for a considerable cost to represent a reasonable return.

My DIY machine has a cutting area of 49" x 60" and cost me $2800. You will not get anywhere near that price buying commercially.


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## MEBCWD (Jan 14, 2012)

First, Welcome to the Router Forums.

I'm also in Texas.

The IEC1212 CNC Router $3,199.00 is sold by a company in Pennsylvania but they are made in Asia and shipped from Asia. I contacted their tech support (they only have email support). You will have to pay import duties and taxes plus the $700 shipping cost for this unit (not the $10 shipping cost they show, that is if you buy 25 of them they will only charge $10 shipping for each one) to get it to the US and may have additional shipping fees from the port of entry to your location. They say they will issue an invoice with reduced cost shown so you can pay less import taxes and duties, THIS IS ILEGAL and I would not want to get involved with any company that would do something like that. Tech support was in broken English so I question if they could answer any questions with a reasonable answer. I am attaching the picture of the machine as they show it on their site. If you notice there is only one gantry upright support. I ask their tech support person if this is how that model CNC is made and they said yes it just has the one upright arm. I don't really think that is how they build this model but that is how tech support says the machine is built. on the discription page for this model it says it has a Two Year Limited Warranty but on their Terms and Conditions page they say One year warranty and "Should a return for repair be necessary, buyer need ship it back to our warehouse at Asia at own cost. The unit must be insured for the full retail value. If the unit is shipped by a non-approved company or is not in original packaging when it arrives, IEHK reserves the right to refuse the shipment. 

I think I would really bypass this one!


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

Methinks this is going to be an interesting thread to follow. :smile:


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## MEBCWD (Jan 14, 2012)

Automation Technologies KL-1212 CNC Router 48 x 48 inch $6,199

There are several reasons that this machine cost more that the IEC1212 CNC Router $3,199.00

This machine is imported to the USA and taxes and duties are already piad for and I'm sure they do it legaly. This is a rack and pinion machine with Nema 34 steppers. It has a gantry height of 8", twice as much as the other machine. It runs on the well known well documented Mach 3 control software not the PCI, Ncstudio that is poorly documented. This one has a vaccum table built in and the other does not. It has a one year USA parts warranty. They have a USA based phone tech support as well as email support.

So this machine is worth a lot more as far as I'm concerened.


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## MEBCWD (Jan 14, 2012)

The JCUT-1212 $2950 on ebay free shipping from china

Has a 6" gantry height. 
It has small stepper motors so that limits speed and torque.
It uses NcStudio or you can pay an extra $400 for motion a controller that will run on Mach 3 (that does not include the Mach 3 software or pay $500 for DPS control.
For software, it lists Type 3 (not sure what that is), ArtCut and ArtCam which are probably pirated copies that no telling how old the versions are, there will be no support for the software.
The spindle is a 1.5kw with an ER 11 collet and that limits you to 1/4" bits and will be underpowered for some projects.
You have the cost of shipping to your location from the seaport and cost of taxes and other fees. You will be importing it so you will also need to get a broker to help you get it into the USA and will have to pay his fee(this is probably required for the first CNC also). The second machine will not require a broker or that additional fee.
They also offer to give you an invoice lying about how much you paid for it so you can save on the import fees. This is against the law and you could get in a lot of trouble you don't need.

Again I would avoid this machine.


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## MEBCWD (Jan 14, 2012)

Pilot Pro 5050 DIY Kit $6,100.00 or assembled for $6,550
5050 Stand $1400.00

This is a lighter weight machine.
Small Nema 23 stepper motors will limit feed rates.
Set up to use a trim router (Bosch Colt). They do offer a 2.2kw spindle but it might add to flex in the system.
They don't say what software they include so I would say it is probably free open source software or limited trials. I would not consider it in the value of the CNC.
They say Z axis of 7" to 12" for their machines. That's interesting. They also show those pictures of someone walking and hanging on the gantry. I would not one of the ones they did that to.
They have several add-ons available that will just add to the cost.

To me it is pricy for what it is but that is my opinion.


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## MEBCWD (Jan 14, 2012)

shark HD4 extended $4,999.99

A lot of plastic that just adds to the flex of the machine.
Small Nema 23 stepper motors, they are slightly bigger than the original HD steppers but still limit feeds. Not really a problem because you have to work within the flex limits of the CNC, they are just limited.
Several people have reported that theirs was out of square from the factory and I have squared 3 of them for my customers and have one more to do for another customer. They are not checking the alignment at the factory to let that many get past them.
Two of the new ones I have worked on were missing screws, one had 2 screws missing in the router mount, the other one and a screw missing in the router mount and one missing on the gantry plate. Again a quality control problem.
Tech support is hit or miss. They know the standard answers but have problems with the more technical questions. I have an older Shark and have to get registration codes for all my equipment every year. They always send some bad codes the first time and I have to go through the process again to get codes that allow me to use my equipment. I actually have 3 of their machines, I won't buy another one.
Proprietary control software. You could build your own controller to get passed that proprietary software but you would still have a machine with a lot of flex and slow speeds.

One plus is part of that cost is for the Vectric VCarve Pro software.

Like I said I would not buy another one but I will say that if you stay within the limits of the machine they will do a decent job.


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## MEBCWD (Jan 14, 2012)

Camaster Stinger II SR-44 Starting at $12,995

This is a good choice for many reasons.
The only thing I don't like about the Camaster Stinger II SR-44 is the cheap MDF spoil board with t slots installed. The t-slots pull out easily. they need a good spoil board.
They use WinCNC control software and come with the computer and monitor.
They come with Vectric VCarve Pro design software.
They come with a 3.5HP router- I do recommend upgrading to a spindle but the router will work fine.
Rack and pinion on the X and Y with ball screw on the Z. 
High feed rates to help reduce cut times.
Well build heavy machine.
They have great customer service and tech support.

This would be a good one if you want precision and speed and have the room and money in your budget.


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## MEBCWD (Jan 14, 2012)

Laguna Swift CNC Router 4′ x 4′ 3HP $13,645

Uses HHC controller, I prefer Mach3, Mach4 or WinCNC but that is personal taste.
good feeds and speeds. Well build machine
Good 3HP spindle
Rack and pinion on the X and Y with ball screws on the Z.
I have heard mixed thoughts on their customer service and tech support.
To me they are a bit pricey compared to the Camaster Stinger.

Decent machine but I would go for the Camaster first.


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## MEBCWD (Jan 14, 2012)

Axiom Elite Series AR16 ELITE $13,999

I'm not too familiar with the Elite series but the Pro+ Series is a good entry level machine
The frame on this one is welded steel but the gantry supports and some of the other parts are structural cast aluminum, this is not a problem but does cut down on the weight that helps to limit vibration.
It does have an industrial controller so if you have problems their customer support will probably be the best place to check for solutions.
Ball screws on X,Y and Z so should be good for accuracy but will limit how heavy of cuts you can make.
Has decent feed rates but not as good as the Camaster or Laguna.
The 3HP spindle is a good spindle.
I have heard nothing but good things about their customer service and tech support.
I consider it a little on the pricey side compared to the Camaster and Laguna


I think I would pass on this one also but is is a nice machine


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## MEBCWD (Jan 14, 2012)

Okay clayclay you have my opinions about the machines you posted.

When David asked about a supporting woodshop he was referring to a shop full of tools to machine lumber to use for your blanks. If you don't have any tools then you will have to pay more for wood ready to be cut.

I think you are worrying too much about the precision of the machine for doing 3D carving art projects. You want the most precision for doing parts that need to fit together. 3D is somewhat forgiving and doesn't require really tight tolerances. You can do good 3D projects on entry model machines if you work within the limits of the machine. Even A good solid commercial CNC in the $100,000 range can be pushed past its limits and produces poor quality work.

You say you are going to fit it in a room in your house, have you thought about how you would get one of these fully assembled heavy machines into your house? Do you have the power required for the machine in your house where you want to put the machine? I think you need to be looking at a kit machine.

Check out the CNCrouterparts Pro series machines here PRO4848 4' x 4' CNC Router Kit | CNCRouterParts This would be my choice and I am considering buying one to replace my current machines.

I think the PRO4848 4' x 4' CNC Router Kit with the Plug and Play NEMA 34 CNC Control System would be a good choice. The 2.2 kW Plug and Play Spindle / VFD System would be a good addition to the system but you could use a router or add your own spindle if you think you are capable of wiring it correctly.

I think this is the route you should consider if you really want to put it in your house. Really boils down to available space, available power and your budget for the machine the needed design and control software.


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## UglySign (Nov 17, 2015)

MEBCWD said:


> ...Check out the CNCrouterparts Pro series machines here PRO4848 4' x 4' CNC Router Kit | CNCRouterParts This would be my choice and I am considering buying one to replace my current machines.
> 
> I think the PRO4848 4' x 4' CNC Router Kit with the Plug and Play NEMA 34 CNC Control System would be a good choice. The 2.2 kW Plug and Play Spindle / VFD System would be a good addition to the system but you could use a router or add your own spindle if you think you are capable of wiring it correctly.


Does @clayclay know how to put these together? There's plenty on here for help on that.
I wish I knew otherwise I would have bought one of those and saved some bucks.

Oh let's not forget ShopSabre since we mentioned Camaster

SS 23

SS RC4


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## difalkner (Jan 3, 2012)

Wow, Mike! Those are very good reviews and write-ups on the machines in question. We should parse the review threads into a sticky and add to it at some point. Good job!

David


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## TimPa (Jan 4, 2011)

I had to purchase one for my program at work. so as many others did here, I studied and researched and made lists and comparison charts and....

Mike did a great job! when comparing prices, make sure you are comparing apple to apples... as one upgrade here can jump the price to a new level there.

since I was new to the cnc world, I went with camaster ($40k+) because of the extremely helpful support forum they have. 

if it were my money, and I already knew about cnc's I would likely look to spend less money elsewhere (more research, lists...)

_don't be afraid to look for used,_ as many folks buy them and find the learning curve too steep, next thing you know paint cans and lawn chairs are stacked on top of it... read it on the forums more than once.

remember the motto - you get what you pay for. "4 Foot by 4 Foot Hi Accuracy Hi Repeatability Machine" won't be cheap...


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

I got a plug and play from Probotix just to see if it was something I would really get into. It is a learning curve!!! After getting a better understanding of things I got CNCRP Pro kit. It carves a whole lot faster, but at over twice the price. Support and parts availability ARE IMPORTANT!!!! Especially support. Both these companies are US based and answer their phones and emails in English. Right now I'm running both machines.

As mentioned before, 3d carving is a slow process.


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## MEBCWD (Jan 14, 2012)

difalkner said:


> Wow, Mike! Those are very good reviews and write-ups on the machines in question. We should parse the review threads into a sticky and add to it at some point. Good job!
> 
> David


These were just quick observations and a little first-hand information but it would be good to have a sticky that really reflected the differences between the most available machines. like on the first one I did take the time to contact their tech support to see what kind of knowledge the tech actually had. They are one of the enter the question and then get a standard answer to give the customer. *Remember they said that machine only has one gantry support arm!*

It would be a very time-consuming effort to list all the ones that are out now. Some of the Chinese machines are good machines but a lot of them are cheaply made and have a lot of hidden costs involved to get them to your location. The ones that are already imported by a broker and tested already have the hidden costs taken care of and some of them have USA support in place. I would not get involved with any company that tells you they will help you cheat on the import taxes and other fees by providing you with false documentation, remember you are signing your name on federal documents that are falsified and could lose everything you own if they did take you to court.

Okay I'm off my soapbox for now.


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## Clay. (Apr 30, 2019)

Thanks for all the information everyone

I wanted to make at least 1 post to get info from a cnc community before buying a machine
Now I am leaning towards buying the
Automation Technologies KL-1212 CNC Router 48 x 48 inch, T slot, Vacuum Table, Helical Rack and Pinion

No one is going to be using the extra room in the house I would like to try to tilt the machine somehow to get it in there

CNC routerparts PRO4848 kit I am not too sure about my capabilities to put a machine together properly

$4,275 CNC routerparts PRO4848 kit
$2,575 Plug and Play NEMA 34 CNC Control System
-------------------------------------------------
$6850
then i would still need a spindle the PRO4848 kit might be the best deal for a expert with cnc machines but I am not wanting to put together a kit because I am new to cnc

After asking this forum and all the info Mike gave so far the Automation Technologies KL-1212 is what seems like the best deal for me since the Camaster $12,995 is out of my budget


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## MEBCWD (Jan 14, 2012)

clayclay said:


> No one is going to be using the extra room in the house I would like to try to tilt the machine somehow to get it in there


I do think it would be a decent machine but I do not have any first-hand experience with one. *BUT* there are things I think you need to consider before you take the leap

Remember this machine weighs in at approximately *1000 pounds* And the as shipped size is 82" x 78" x 57".

You will probably have to take it apart to get it in the house (will this void the warranty?) or have to take down a wall or have an over-sized door or two installed. Also, will the floor in the house support the weight? Is the room really big enough for the machine and any other things like a dust collector, sanding equipment and possibly a small workbench with at least some hand tools to process the lumber? 

There are a lot of other things you should look at before you commit to buying it.


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## UglySign (Nov 17, 2015)

MEBCWD said:


> There are a lot of other things you should look at before you commit to buying it.



lol, these machines just dont bite the wood, they bite the wallet too. Be prepared.


David, where's your build post? Maybe clay didnt see what you went thru. HJ also.
Just so he gets an idea. No?


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## Clay. (Apr 30, 2019)

Mike is correct that machine is not going to fit into the house

But I have a large covered back patio, could get the machine back there would have to remove some wood rails and put them back

Patio has a tin roof patio is connected to house and is about 20 feet wide and 30 feet long there are power outlets, only thing I am worried about is if the machine being outside will damage the machine, we live north of Houston we dont live near the ocean where metal seems to corrode easier

I got a car cover to cover the machine that might help

Do you guys think the machine would be damaged from the elements over time ?


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## MEBCWD (Jan 14, 2012)

clayclay said:


> Mike is correct that machine is not going to fit into the house
> 
> But I have a large covered back patio, could get the machine back there would have to remove some wood rails and put them back
> 
> ...


That CNC was not meant to be housed in an open environment. I think you would have problems with humidity causing corrosion and you might have to spend more time maintaining it than using it to cut wood. Every time it rains and the wind blows it into the patio you will need to clean it up quickly, you can't just say I'll do it this weekend. If you could close-in the part of the patio you want to use for the machine I think that would help. Sometimes things like the car cover you mention might attract and hold moisture and actually cause more problems. 

Just remember this is a major investment and you will want to take care of it.


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## UglySign (Nov 17, 2015)

clayclay said:


> Mike is correct that machine is not going to fit into the house
> But I have a large covered back patio, could get the machine back there would have to remove some wood rails and put them back
> Patio has a tin roof patio is connected to house and is about 20 feet wide and 30 feet long there are power outlets, only thing I am worried about is if the machine being outside will damage the machine, we live north of Houston we dont live near the ocean where metal seems to corrode easier
> I got a car cover to cover the machine that might help
> Do you guys think the machine would be damaged from the elements over time ?



Able to enclose a decent portion of the patio?
Wait a minute... havent you experienced hurricanes?
That car cover will end up over here on Long Island
and if it's strong enough it may grab Rick and bring him to Scott
for the painting class.


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

I think this may answer a few of your questions

https://www.routerforums.com/cnc-routing/135957-cncrouterparts-pro-attempt-build.html

Love the CNCRP Pro 4848 machine. Took a lot from several people to help me get it up and running. The build was fairly easy. Getting it to cut things took a bit of an effort. Having a reasonable understanding on most of the principles and knowing pretty much what to expect, as well as gaining some experience, helped a whole lot. I'm glad I got the Probotix to start. It's more than paid for itself. It's not a pro machine, but not just a hobby machine either. I call it a serious hobby machine. And they have support, as well as several members here that have them and can be of help.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

I don't do CNC, but I teach marketing to doctors, so I have written up some guidelines for making money with a CNC machine. It is possible, but you'll want to spend a lot of time learning to use it effectively before you can expect to produce usable/salable goods.

You may be able to enclose the outside space, but unless you love to work in Texas heat and humidity, you'll want to have AC for the space, which is expensive if you don't have insulation. Looks like you'll want to have 220 installed, which is probably going to mean hiring an electrician so you get the phasing right. 

Shop tools. You can't expect to use stuff from Home Depot. Their goods are often warped, twisted or worse and need flattening. You'll need a table saw of some sort to just cut pieces to size before you glue up several pieces to create a panel. This requires clamps and at the very least, a couple of large hand planes. A planer allows you to remove wood to a specific thickness and to have it be flat enough to use for CNC. There are workarounds for some of the other tools many of our CNC folks already had.

You'll need to locate a supplier of good wood and select it very carefully. Wood from such a supplier will be extra thick so you can mill it down. If you don't have the right tools, you will have to learn to make jigs to do what the missing tools will do.

Dust collection is super important. Carving produces an enormous amount of fluffy chips or sawdust. This is extremely dangerous stuff because once the fine stuff gets into you lungs, it doesn't come out completely. Good dust collection adds several hundred dollars to your setup cost, and you will have to buy a number of connectors and hoses to hook it up. Harbor Freight has a decent unit for about $200 on sale, but add more for the accessories.

You are taking on something that is challenging, but doable. But it will require patience, reading, watching videos, calling for help, posting questions on this forum. BTW, one of our CNC genius designers, Gaffboat wrote a beginners guide to the terminology of CNC. It is available on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Newbies-Guid...book&qid=1556759187&s=gateway&sr=8-4-fkmrnull ($15).

You might look up Gaffboat's profile and look at some of his posts. His design work is great. Another member, Scottart, is a CNC master and does amazing commercial carving work and his decoration, painting, finishing are wonderful. He is in Alaska and is offering a painting class on using CNC. Classes are available here and there for CNC, but I think you'll have to do some research. But you should choose your software first!

Attached is a piece on making a living with CNC, which is mostly on marketing, based on how I would do it. For a little extra money, a moderate production machine is OK, but if you really want to make a go of CNC, you need a fairly high production machine. If you are an artist and want to make art pieces with it, a moderate speed machine might be fine. Looking forward to reading about your process.


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## difalkner (Jan 3, 2012)

UglySign said:


> lol, these machines just don't bite the wood, they bite the wallet too. Be prepared.
> 
> 
> David, where's your build post? Maybe clay didn't see what you went thru. HJ also.
> Just so he gets an idea. No?


Here's our build - 2nd build (first) - CNC router

I have a friend locally who owns a Chinese 4x8 CNC and it has been in his non-climate controlled stand alone shop for almost 3 years and is now in his new 50x50 stand alone shop, also non-climate controlled. The CNC has never been rained on but each time I see it I just shake my head because of the rust and corrosion I see, the MDF spoilboard is not anywhere near level, and the machine looks like it's been rode hard and put up wet. And because he never learned how to use it the machine he spent too much on probably isn't worth 1/3 of what he paid and would take a lot of work to get into top shape (he's had others run it from time to time).

So if your machine is outside on a back porch and exposed to the elements my guess is it would be far, far worse than this machine that has been inside for the past 3 years.

My $0.02

David


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## Clay. (Apr 30, 2019)

that treadmill has been out there for many years and no rust on its metal parts, that window ac unit is rusted alot but it was there for a long time before we had a patio and got directly rained on for years, i need to move that treadmill and table, it was raining while i took the pictures or else i would of step out of the patio to take a picture

Automation Technologies KL-1212 CNC Router 48 x 48 inch $6,199 , would this machine be able to have a 4th axis log carver attachment later on if i wanted to add it ?

and why pay $6,199 when you can pay more than twice as much for the same thing
digitalwoodcarver
dot
com/cnc-units/dwc-4848-cnc-unit $12,810.00 

after i buy mine for $6,199 i could create a website with some stupid name like theextramostbestestcomputerizedwoodcarver buy now only $11,999

is there is any reason someone should buy a digital wood caver machine or one of their smaller machines ?
digitalwoodcarver 
.
com/cnc-units


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## difalkner (Jan 3, 2012)

Just a quick glance and about the only difference I see is the Digital Carver machine comes with a 2.2kW air cooled spindle with ER25 collet where the Automation Technology machine comes with a 2.2kW water cooled spindle and ER20 collet. But you are correct - it appears Digital River has a serious profit margin, at least relative to AT.

David


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## MEBCWD (Jan 14, 2012)

It is really hard to tell you about a rotary because the wiring download shows it to have 3 drivers for the machine, so that provided information is wrong. The Y axis will be dual rack and pinion drive and require 2 drivers, one for the Y axis and one for the slave. The picture of the open control box shows 4 drivers as there should be, XYZ and the slave. Not knowing what control breakout board they are actually using I can't say if an extra driver can be added to operate a rotary axis. 

You can still, at a later date use a rotary axis with that machine just like it is. You would have to disconnect your X axis and use that driver to run the rotary axis and wrap all your Y values. And you would need to create a separate Mill profile for Mach3 so it could drive the rotary axis correctly. 

The only way around this would be to add a new driver but as stated earlier you might also have to change the breakout board. They just don't provide enough information.

If you are really interested in that machine you should contact them beforehand because they may offer an extra driver for a rotary axis at extra cost and that might require a different control card. If done at the time of purchase it might save a lot of money and hassle later down the road.

Now it is up to you to contact them and ask them all your questions and see what their answers are.


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## MEBCWD (Jan 14, 2012)

difalkner said:


> Just a quick glance and about the only difference I see is the Digital Carver machine comes with a 2.2kW air cooled spindle with ER25 collet where the Automation Technology machine comes with a 2.2kW water cooled spindle and ER20 collet. But you are correct - it appears Digital River has a serious profit margin, at least relative to AT.
> 
> David


I wonder if that ER 25 collet is correct for that 2.2kw spindle.


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## difalkner (Jan 3, 2012)

MEBCWD said:


> I wonder if that ER 25 collet is correct for that 2.2kw spindle.


That's one reason I pointed it out - I've never seen a 2.2kW spindle offered with an ER25 collet. We have a 3kW and I don't think I've seen that offered with an ER25, either.

David


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

@MEBCWD Wow,mike, you really came up with some detailed information. What a great run down on the different machines, even I could understand most of it, and I don't know anything about CNC until now. Thanks for taking the time to make the comparison of all the machines.
Herb


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## ger21 (Feb 10, 2019)

difalkner said:


> That's one reason I pointed it out - I've never seen a 2.2kW spindle offered with an ER25 collet.



You didn't look hard enough.


https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-2KW-Air-...hash=item2eef83a03a:m:mHdEgI1maCbfb4byzUmK_XQ


GMT Air Cooled CNC Spindle 2.2kW 220/380V 18000 RPM High Torque S | Air Cooled Spindles


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## difalkner (Jan 3, 2012)

ger21 said:


> You didn't look hard enough.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-2KW-Air-...hash=item2eef83a03a:m:mHdEgI1maCbfb4byzUmK_XQ
> 
> GMT Air Cooled CNC Spindle 2.2kW 220/380V 18000 RPM High Torque S | Air Cooled Spindles


Haha! I didn't look at all, Gerry! :grin: I was just saying I've never seen one, meaning not in any descriptions of spindles or machines. Glad to see there are some.

David


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## MEBCWD (Jan 14, 2012)

difalkner said:


> Haha! I didn't look at all, Gerry! :grin: I was just saying I've never seen one, meaning not in any descriptions of spindles or machines. Glad to see there are some.
> 
> David


Don't feel bad David I didn't dig any deeper either.:smile:


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## Clay. (Apr 30, 2019)

i have been thinking about how much better it would be not to have to go outside in the heat or cold to use a cnc machine and i think if i went with a 48 inch by 48 inch cutting area machine than it might be best to get a machine that i can take apart and move

i started thinking about the rockler store just a few miles from my home that sells shark, axiom, powermatic 

i did email automation technologies about what Mike said and asked them to take a look at Mikes post at the top of page 4 of this thread and sent them a link to this thread in the email and they emailed me back and they said



"We can make a 4 axis machine with 4 axis
If you use the current machine, you need to add a stepper driver and 4 axis rotation device"



I emailed them back and asked how much extra would the cost be and they messaged me back and said



"We have a 4 axis machine in production

You can ship to you directly from China

It is better for you, 

You will get in 45 days

It is only $700 more"



I was considering calling them on the phone and get more information and asking them what does "You can ship to you directly from China" mean
but i guess it does not matter if i am thinking about a option i could fit in the house again like the pro kit Mike mentioned or a smaller axiom machine from the rockler store a few miles from me where i could look at the different models and measure their size

i look at the rockler web site for most popular axiom machines
rockler
.com/power-tools/cnc-machines/axiom?product_list_order=most_popular

and the Axiom AutoRoute 8 Pro+ CNC seems to be the most popular, i guess it does not come with a table maybe i could fit something like that in the house thru a window

i might go to the rockler store what do you all think about this machine rockler
.com/axiom-autoroute-8-pro-cnc
or anyone think there is a different model i should think about buying from rockler ?

the pro4848 kit Mike told me about i am still considering that also but maybe a good smaller machine from a seller a few miles away is what would be good for a noob like me

what do you all think ?


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## TimPa (Jan 4, 2011)

fwiw, we removed the gantry from our cnc to get it in the building. camaster actually supports that service if you want them to do the removal. and they supply directions on the reinstall... really not a big deal.


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## Larry42 (Aug 11, 2014)

Save yourself a lot of pain. Skip the ultra cheap machines. I know that Shopbot is a reliable, decent machine with good support. Software is as important as the machine. If the machine you get has controls that will not utilize decent software you are screwed right from the start. One of my employees was into 3D "carved" I.E. low relief images and did several nice ones that were about 16" sq. The G code that was created in a commercial software was over 100,000 lines of code and required drip feeding from our server. We have a 5' x 10' router with 12hp. Most "carving is done with a ball nose bit, the smaller the bit the finer the detail that can be produced. The finer the step over the finer the detail. A two flute bit turning at 16,000 rpm and a feed of 600 ipm is a good starting point. Adjust as needed to get the finish you want. A 1/4" ball nose with a 1/32" step over gives a pretty good finish. From these #s you can calculate your run times. The process can be sped up by doing a roughing pass first then changing out bits for a finish pass.


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

You can get a Probotix that's ready to go right out of the crate. Just hook the wires up (correctly). Get to know the machine and what's involved with CNC and if you like it, then decide on going bigger or keep what you have. With the new gantry height they have you may very well be content with just that. Remember......... you get what you pay for!!!

I had the same space problem and got a CNCRP 4848 Pro and built it in my basement. Now I'm running both machines.


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## Clay. (Apr 30, 2019)

i woke up today ready to go to rockler store a few miles from me, good thing i called they keep the shark in stock but not the axiom

axiom you would have to order and pay shipping, they said there is no difference in buying from the axiom website or buying from their store

there are 2 rockler stores in houston so i call the other rockler and same thing

i am not getting the plastic shark machine

i had my mind made up and i was ready to buy the axiom pro+ 6 today without the stand or tool box at the rockler store but looks like i am going to have to keep looking for best deal online for a cnc machine because they dont keep them in stock

there are also 2 woodcraft stores in houston that have websites saying they sell axiom i just called and same thing they dont have axiom in stock

i think i got it narrowed down to 4 machines, i am really thinking about getting the axiom 2x3, but it would be nice to have a 4x4 machine that i could put together so it would fit in a room

honestjohn said he has probotix and a pro4848, i could get the 2x3 axiom and later on get a pro4848 or saturn after i learn more about cnc machines, i think this is what i want to do get the axiom and later on think about getting something bigger

unless i got the probotix nebula 37” x 50” and that was the only machine i needed, i am just afraid if i get that machine than i might be stuck with something that can not do detail like the axiom, i see all the specs/numbers but i am not sure if resolution, accuracy, and repeatable are all the same thing i just would like a machine that can make they most detailed wood carving 2.5d/3d pictures

i am reading mixed reviews about probotix some people saying it is good and some people saying it is a toy so not sure what to think, i dont care that it comes with a computer that makes me worried that it might have proprietary software like the plastic toy shark


axiom pro+ 6 which is 2x3 foot cutting area
Positional Accuracy +/- .00393" (0.10mm) 

probotix nebula 37” x 50” cutting area
ACME screws not ball screws and the gantry looks weak
Resolution 0.00125 Inches

cncrouterparts PRO4848 4x4 cutting area
i read these machines have to be readjusted or what ever, every so often
Resolution:
X/Y: 0.0005” (0.0127 mm)
Z: 0.0002” (0.005 mm)
Repeatability: +/- 0.002” (0.05 mm)
Accuracy: +/- 0.005” (0.127 mm) or better

Saturn 2 Series CNC Router - 4x4 cuttin area
Accuracy +/- 0.005 in (0.127 mm) or better
Repeatability +/- 0.001 in (0.025 mm)


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## difalkner (Jan 3, 2012)

We have the Saturn prototype 2x4 and I'll tell you ahead of time that it took an engine hoist to lift the bare frame with nothing on it. The Saturn 2 4x4 is much heavier and is a welded steel frame that doesn't come apart, so getting it into a room will require some effort and many people, assuming you'll still want it in a room.

It's a good, solid, rigid frame though!

David


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## ger21 (Feb 10, 2019)

All of these machines will cut with the same degree of accuracy and detail.

Personally, I think the CNCRP Pro 4x4 would be better way to start then with the Axiom. More machine for the same money.


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## ger21 (Feb 10, 2019)

> i am reading mixed reviews about probotix some people saying it is good and some people saying it is a toy so not sure what to think


In the Hobby CNC world, it all comes down to YOUR expectations. If you've never seen or used anything better, you might be really happy with it. If you've used a machine that was much better, but similarly priced, then it might be considered a toy.

There are machines that are complete garbage that have many happy owners.


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

Learn to walk before you try to run.

There will be problems sometime down the road no matter what you get. They are machines. Machines break at some point.


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

difalkner said:


> We have the Saturn prototype 2x4 and I'll tell you ahead of time that it took an engine hoist to lift the bare frame with nothing on it. The Saturn 2 4x4 is much heavier and is a welded steel frame that doesn't come apart, so getting it into a room will require some effort and many people, assuming you'll still want it in a room.
> 
> It's a good, solid, rigid frame though!
> 
> David


I'm thinking if one goes into a house room, that there is going to have to be a lot of bracing done, besides carpentry work to get one into a room even. All of which is not going to be cheap. Personally, I think getting a slab poured, a shed built, with electric, heat, air, and insulation, would likely cost less, and definitely be preferable. 
Boy oh boy oh boy, I can hardly wait for the next chapter in this adventure.


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## Clay. (Apr 30, 2019)

i should of looked at the weight before saying i might get a saturn 4x4

Weight 550 lbs. without electronics, spindle, stand, or table top

I am going to buy a axiom 6 pro+ 2x3 unless i can not fit it in the house, unless i am mistaken it should not be impossible to get one in the house

I see a lot of wood carved 2.5D/3D pictures for sale that are 2x3 or smaller so i am going to be ok with having a 2x3 machine for a long time

Frame Machine Dimensions AR6 = 51.18"L x 37.36"W x 30.27"H
Shipping Weight AR6 = 360 lbs 
woodcraft dot com says AR6 Machine Weight is 299 lbs. that is without table or tool box, and weight is probably less is you disconnect the controller/computer what ever it is called

one of the places i called did say they have a display model of the ar6 even tho they dont keep them in stock so i might go there and measure it and see if it looks like something we could get in the house

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

doorway is 32 inches wide the height of machine is less than 32 inches so that means the machine will go thru doorway if the machine is tilted on its side, so now i feel a little better about this machine and i am ready to order the machine now


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## MEBCWD (Jan 14, 2012)

Clay the Axiom is a well build CNC but it does have proprietary software to run it. It is also a center screw machine so could limit what you want to do with it. Those CNCs that have a dual Y axis drive allow a lot more to be done because of the open bed. The Probotix is a dual y axis drive and is a decent option for an entry model machine. The CNCRP Pro4848 has the dual Y axis drive and you can get it with nema 34 steppers for faster operation. The CNCRouterParts machines can also be updated to a larger size later. 

Mater of fact you could start with a CNCPR4824 with the nema 34 steppers and upgrade it, that would save you some upfront money but set you up with a nice machine that could be made larger as your needs grow. A good place to start and learn what CNC is about since you have never run one or done any woodworking.


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## Clay. (Apr 30, 2019)

i attached a few pictures of what i would like a machine i get to be capable of doing

which machine is most likely to be able to do work like this

i am worried if i get a probotix machine that i wont be able to get close to that kind of work

i read what you are saying about axiom proprietary software and axiom is center screw machine so could limit what i want to do with it. Those CNCs that have a dual Y axis drive allow a lot more to be done because of the open bed

which machine would allow me to get closer to the kind of work i attached

axiom, probotix, or cncrouterparts pro ?

or is there another other machine/kit that i dont know about that would be better for what i want the machine to do ?

the guy that did the dragon that ebay listing says in description that he built his own machine, i dont know if that means it was a kit or if he was more involved in building his own machine

what if all the sellers selling items with this much detail built their own machine ?

what if machines or kits that you can buy can not do what their machines do ?

I dont know what is going on but I would like a machine that is most likely to be capable of making that quality of work


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## Gary Wiant (Jun 7, 2017)

I have a CNCRP pro 4896 with a DIY vacuum table & I love it. I think a smaller machine would be best for your situation but I have no experience with any of the other models like others on here do. 

I do think you need to consider what price you expect to charge for you wood carvings?
What do you expect to pay yourself?

Say the model takes 5 hours to route, you are also going to have:
Wood prep- your going to either buy preglued & planed wood or make your own. You need to be paid for that.
Computer setup - if your buying files this wont be much but if your creating your own it can be very time consuming.
Router setup - mounting wood to the router, this takes more time than you think & it needs figured in.
Routing time- as said before this can be hours and hours.
Clean up- even with a good dust collector you'll have some clean up.

Just something to keep in mind.


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## OCEdesigns (Jan 31, 2019)

Reading through this thread it looks like you are all over the place. Any decent machine will give you the results you want. But it takes post machining work to get them to look as good as the pics you posted. Lots of fine hand sanding and cleaning of small areas etc. The smaller the final pass bit the cleaner the surface (and longer machining time). Those pics you posted are not straight off the machine! 

I have one of those "Plastic Sharks" you don't like and I've done several 2.5D carvings with great results. I have made a lot of stuff with it since purchasing in Feb this year. I am still making fine tune adjustments to get it even more dialed in to what I want out of it. I've even started doing some Aluminum work on it and the "Plastic" doesn't limit me in what I am doing. I just learned to do things differently and now no problems. It also come with V-Carve Pro which is very user friendly.

Basically set a budget, have an idea in mind of the size and location to put it (sounds like you have this) and go for it. Don't buy a cheap piece of garbage and unless your budget allows don't buy a $15k machine that will be more than you ever need and will never get paid back on. I think you are overthinking this.


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## Gary Wiant (Jun 7, 2017)

I agree that there are lots of machines that are capable of doing what you want but do yourself a favor and buy a machine that either uses rack & pinion or ball / acme screw and stay away from belts, you just cannot route fast enough with them.


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## difalkner (Jan 3, 2012)

Add one more thing to the mix - router noise. 

If it's going to be in your house and running for hours and hours to cut a 3D panel then you'll want a spindle, either water or air cooled. The difference in sound between a router and spindle is night and day and you can probably find examples on YouTube. Plus, the spindle will handle running for many hours far better than a router will. 

David


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## ger21 (Feb 10, 2019)

> which machine would allow me to get closer to the kind of work i attached
> 
> axiom, probotix, or cncrouterparts pro ?
> 
> or is there another other machine/kit that i dont know about that would be better for what i want the machine to do ?



Any machine can do this type of work. Depending on the size, and level of detail you want, it could take 24 hours or more to machine them. So a faster machine can make a huge difference here.
Are you planning on purchasing the designs? If not, you better have incredible artistic talent and skill. 

I'd be skeptical of the Saturn, as a lot of recent purchasers have received machines with very poor workmanship.

I don't consider the Axiom control to be "Proprietary". It uses an off the shelf Chinese control, which doesn't use a PC.


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## Clay. (Apr 30, 2019)

i am glad Mike pointed out that the cncrouterparts pro machines are designed to easily expand to a larger machine in the future simply by adding more framework, gear rack and linear rail, that is something to consider

i tried to read about software and the axiom i dont understand a lot since i am new but i guess axiom does not have proprietary software because it has a controller ?

it seems to have some small control device run what ever script/design you put in it, i guess you can make the script/design with any popular software you want, if so that seems ok to me

something that i tried to google but did not find much info about was the difference of axiom being a center screw machine vs a dual y axis machine

"CNCs that have a dual Y axis drive allow a lot more to be done because of the open bed"

i wish i knew more about what dual Y axis allow a lot more to be done because of the open bed means, i am guessing that it is a speed thing because of how you worded it with the nema 34 steppers for faster operation

is dual Y axis just a speed thing ?

is the only thing a center screw machine like axiom is trading for not having a dual Y axis is speed or is there something that axiom can not do because it does not have a dual Y axis ? open bed, what is that ?


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## ger21 (Feb 10, 2019)

Differences between center driven and dual driven.

1) Dual driven tend to be more rigid. With a center driven gantry, when you are cutting near the ends of the gantry, the gantry can rack, or twist, as it's only held in place by the center screw.
2) With a center driven gantry, the table is only supported at the ends, because you have components moving under the table. So, a dual driven machine can potentially have a more rigid table, as it can be fully supported underneath. And a dual driven machine allows you to use fixtures mounting parts vertically through the table.
3) A dual driven machine will use two motors, so is potentially more powerful. But a single screw machine should in theory be using a larger motor, so this shouldn't really make a difference. But it may.


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## Clay. (Apr 30, 2019)

Differences between center driven and dual driven.

1) Dual driven tend to be more rigid. With a center driven gantry, when you are cutting near the ends of the gantry, the gantry can rack, or twist, as it's only held in place by the center screw.
2) With a center driven gantry, the table is only supported at the ends, because you have components moving under the table. So, a dual driven machine can potentially have a more rigid table, as it can be fully supported underneath. And a dual driven machine allows you to use fixtures mounting parts vertically through the table.
3) A dual driven machine will use two motors, so is potentially more powerful. But a single screw machine should in theory be using a larger motor, so this shouldn't really make a difference. But it may. 

i am trying to wrap my mind around this, i had to use google just to find out the y axis would be the direction of the 3 foot cutting area in a 2x3 machine

i attached pics of the gantries of axiom, router parts pro4848, and probotix nebula

i think i see how axiom y movement looks closer to the cutting area

"With a center driven gantry, the table is only supported at the ends, because you have components moving under the table. 
So, a dual driven machine can potentially have a more rigid table, as it can be fully supported underneath."

i understand i am ok with this there are some videos by axiom where they talk about how the frame is welded together like it is 1 solid piece and very strong

And a dual driven machine allows you to use fixtures mounting parts vertically through the table."

fixtures vertically through the table... do you mean since there are no moving parts under frame like the picture of the pro4848 i attached you could put anything like a long stick vertical thru the cutting area ?

i am not sure what fixtures vertically through the table means, does it have to do with the 3d carving capabilities of a machine or how good looking it can make carvings ?


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

It's not the machine, but the quality of the files used. These were done on my Probotix and CNCRP Pro.

Another thing to consider. Is there a market for what you want to do?? I've got fancy stuff that gets oohs and aahs all the time - but doesn't sell quickly. You are crossing that line into "art" - which is discretionary money. People will buy it because they want to, not because they need it. And do they have the extra $$ to spend. Your examples are on Ebay offered by mostly foreign (Russian) sellers. You have to find your own "niche". Be it Longworth chucks, cutting boards, wildlife painted carvings, or ........ Polish Eagles (who would have thought). Then you get to make them over and over and over. The one of a kind artsy stuff will go eventually, but you can't count on it for steady income.

Now, with that being said. My CNCRP Pro does 3d carving about 4 times faster than my Probotix. And could probably go faster, but I've got it set to my comfort zone. And like the others said, it's expandable. If I can put one together, most anybody can. Doing text signs and smaller carvings keeps the Probotix busy. I run both machines, usually at the same time. I was in the same boat as you when I started - even less knowledgeable since I didn't even know about this forum. I got the Probotix ( it comes with it's own computer set up, programmed, and loaded with linux) and learned the basics (it's simpler) of CNC machines, making and using files, what is doable and not, and most importantly - what will sell and for what price. I paid for the machine in about 9 months being a "part timer" and adjusting to the learning curve. 3d carving is NOT a fast process, but can be satisfying. I was grossly disappointed, but adjusted.

Getting into CNC is not cheap. And there is always the chance you will give it up after trying it or seeing what's involved. There's a lot of new and nearly new machines collecting dust in the corner somewhere because it wasn't what the owners thought it would be.

With that being said - it's up to you to make a sound practical decision that you can live with, and afford. Choose wisely Grasshopper.


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## MEBCWD (Jan 14, 2012)

Look at this post by 4D Thinker and check his links and you will see what I am talking about when I say adding a jig in the open bed dual drive machines. https://www.routerforums.com/cnc-routing/101081-small-angle-clamping-jig.html

You may never consider taking advantage of the open bed but that is not the only reason to consider one.

Bottom line is you don't need a big expensive servo-driven machine to do quality 3D work, it can be done on decent entry model CNC machines but it will take a lot longer to do them because you just have to stay within the limitations of each machine.

I did this dice box on my CNC Shark HD 1 and I guaranty you that it is a loose CNC. It was the first in the line of their machines that were made to use the larger 2 1/4hp routers and has been well used.


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## Gary Wiant (Jun 7, 2017)

You can carve pretty much any 3d (2.5d) image with any router the difference is speed. You can route at 50ipm and take 10hrs. or route at 200ipm and take 2.5hrs. 

With 3d models there is only so much a customer will pay. Let's say you can get $200 out of a routed finished model regardless of how long it takes. None of your customers care how long it takes. No you are able to route 4 models on the faster machine & generate $800 and get $100/hour or you can use the slower machine and make 1 model in the same time and get $20/hour. (this of course doesn't include, wood, wood prep, setup, sanding, stain, polyurethane & cleanup) 

I dont know about anyone else but I wont turn my router on for a $20 job. My minimum is $35.

Now the big question... are you sure you are going to be able to sell enough 3d models for what you need to make it worth it? I'm by no means saying you cant make money with a cnc, you absolutely can but I think you are putting to much of an emphasis on 3d modeled jobs. 

Good luck 
Gary


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

Definitely not as much fun ........ but I've found (figuring time, materials...the usual math stuff) that there's more money using scrap pieces making carved text signs that sell for $10-30) and small 3d stuff than the bigger custom and really nice things. I can usually count on these to pay the booth rent plus and they keep the traffic stopping by. The more traffic, the better chance of selling things. Just because you have an Etsy or Ebay store doesn't mean your computer will burn up with orders.


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

honesttjohn said:


> Definitely not as much fun ........ but I've found (figuring time, materials...the usual math stuff) that there's more money using scrap pieces making carved text signs that sell for $10-30) and small 3d stuff than the bigger custom and really nice things. I can usually count on these to pay the booth rent plus and they keep the traffic stopping by. The more traffic, the better chance of selling things. Just because you have an Etsy or Ebay store doesn't mean your computer will burn up with orders.


Old saying: It's easier to sell 100 things for $1 each, than it is to sell 1 thing for $100.


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## Larry42 (Aug 11, 2014)

Whether a machine is driven by a ball screw under the bed or rack & pinion on both sides has nothing to do with how ridged it is. I've had 2 machines that run on center mounted ball screws, both excellent. The first moved the gantry, the 2nd moved the bed. It's all about how well engineered the machines are. High quality machines will last a long time and may not be worth their cost to you if you don't run them much. 
If you start with a super cheap machine that may be a fine way to learn and see if you can actually make any $ selling stuff. Don't plan on it having a very long life. Brush type motors will need brushes replaced fairly often. A bigger table may allow you to run multiple parts before changing things out. You really need to stay in reasonably close proximity to the machine while it is running. There is always the danger of fire when cutting wood. If the machine stalls for some reason with the bit in the wood it will very quickly start to burn the wood. Been there!


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## ger21 (Feb 10, 2019)

> Whether a machine is driven by a ball screw under the bed or rack & pinion on both sides has nothing to do with how ridged it is.


Yes and no. 
If the single screw driven gantry can "rack" when forces are applied to it's end, it will be much more rigid if it's driven from both sides, which will prevent it from racking.
It's technically not any more rigid, but better constrained, which has the same effect as being more rigid.


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## The CNCGuy (May 10, 2019)

I'm in Texas, and I'm very familiar with those Chinese machines, and they all run on Mach3. They require you to know how to set up Mach3, which costs $175 or you can upgrade to Mach4 for $200. They do not send the Mach3 XML file with your setup.

If you order a Chinese machine then try to get one that is running either the Rich Auto A11 or B11 controller as your machine will already be set up to run. All systems that are running a 2.2Kw spindle require 220V or a 110 to 220 converter($100). But, be aware support is minimal if it exists at all.

You might want to check out the new 4 x 4 Axiom Elite Series (axiomprecision.com), which is already set up for you to plug in a 4th axis. It doesn't require you to have your computer in the shop, just a USB stick to input your files.

Unless the Shark HD is on a special sale you'll also need to purchase the water cooled spindle($700) as you'll burn through regular routers fairly fast when doing a 20 or 30 hour carving.

Vectric VCarve Pro will cost you $700 or you can go for Aspire for $2000.


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## The CNCGuy (May 10, 2019)

If you're talking about the Spring Rockler store they do not carry the Axiom in the store. If you go to the Rockler Store at 3265 Southwest Freeway you can see the Axiom Pro 6 running and get all of your questions answered. The Pro 8 could go into your house as it's requires the stand to be assembled.


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## Clay. (Apr 30, 2019)

I want to buy axiom pro 8, i dont think i am going to pay $650 for their stand but i figure i should probably go with getting at least 4 getting axiom hold down clamps not sure if a non axiom clamp would fit as good and i guess $19 a pair is not that bad

i dont have any bits so i guess i would need to buy some bits, i am not ready to buy software, wood, or other tools yet, should i buy bits from axiom ?

AR8 PRO+ (24" x 48") $6,999.00
Hold Down Clamps - Pair $19.00
Hold Down Clamps - Pair $19.00
Shipping $199
No tax unless you live in Ohio
-------------------------------
Total would be $7,236 without bits

should i get their option for Amana 3pc Starter Bit Set +$69.00 ? or is there somewhere else i can get better bits or better deal for bits ?

i might get the 2x3 axiom pro the 2x4 wood signs that i see look strange, might be better for me to have a 2x3 axiom pro that takes up less space in the house


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## Clay. (Apr 30, 2019)

This is what I just bought, thanks for all the help from everyone which helped me decide which machine to buy

Item Sku Qty Subtotal
Axiom AutoRoute 6 Pro+ AR6PRO+ 1 $6,499.00
AHC102 - Axiom Hold Down Clamps - Pair AHC102 2 $38.00
ABS303 - Axiom 2pc CNC Carving Bit Set For AR Series by Amana Tool ABS303 1 $69.00
ABS301 - Axiom 3pc CNC Starter Bit Set For AR Series by Amana Tool ABS301 1 $69.00
ABS305 - Axiom 2pc CNC Sign-making Bit Set For AR Series by Amana Tool ABS305 1 $69.00
Subtotal $6,744.00
Shipping & Handling $199.00
Grand Total $6,943.00


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## difalkner (Jan 3, 2012)

Can't wait to see it up and running. When you shoot video remember to shoot in widescreen, please.

Which software will you use?

David


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## Gary Wiant (Jun 7, 2017)

Yeah now you need to decide between Vectric & Carveco


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## MEBCWD (Jan 14, 2012)

Clay you should be happy with that setup.

If you decide to use Vectric software be sure to download the "Tool File" from any of the bit sets shown on their bit page and run it, then import that file, into the tool database of the Vectric software. This will install all the tools in every set they sell and they will be divided per set. This will save a lot of time not having to enter data for each tool. This is not needed if you don't use Vectric software.


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## The CNCGuy (May 10, 2019)

You're probably going to wish you had bought the stand as this CNC is very heavy. You also might consider the Freud 108 or Freud 208 bit sets.

If you're going to use VCarve you need to get the VCarve Pro as it set to be used with machines 3ft or longer.

Go to Vectric.com and download VCarve Pro and you can start to learn the software, but will not allow you to save the toolpaths, and you can also download some of the free projects that will cut. 

They have some of the best videos for learning the software. I sell the Axiom and have been doing training for customers since the machine came onto the market.


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## Clay. (Apr 30, 2019)

I plan on doing some more online reading before i decide which software, just taking a short break from all the reading I did to make sure the axiom pro is what i wanted

Vectric VCarve Pro $700
Tool File

Carveco $1,500

Aspire $2,000


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## MEBCWD (Jan 14, 2012)

You can start with VCarve Pro and upgrade to Aspire later for the difference in price between the two. If you don't intend to make your own models then you can get by with VCarve Pro. If you intend to make your own models you can do it in Aspire, Carveco or you can use any of the many available 3D modeling software.

Vectric does have trial downloads of all their standard software but Carveco does not.

The Tool File for Vectric software is not a program. It just saves time by not having to enter all the tool data for those bits that Axiom sells.


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## ger21 (Feb 10, 2019)

Don't just read, download and USE the demos, to see which is best for you.


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## Clay. (Apr 30, 2019)

I spent a lot of time watching Roger Web's cnc videos on youtube and watching him use a program called ArtCam

I just saw a new Roger Web video he said Carveco is the new version of ArtCam, and he said Carveco is his go to software

Roger Web youtube videos made me want to get into cnc woodworking, I think he uses Chinese cnc machines

that is why i wanted that giant 4x4 chinese machine in the beginning, but i am glad i got a machine i can fit in the house

i was not real interested in the axiom stand because it is over 32 inches on all sides and it wont fit thru doorway unless it is taken apart


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## difalkner (Jan 3, 2012)

Clay. said:


> I was not real interested in the axiom stand because it is over 32 inches on all sides and it wont fit thru doorway unless it is taken apart.


Take a look at my build thread for the Saturn 2x4. I built the stand out of 2x4's and the Saturn probably weighs close to twice what the Axiom weighs. The stand has worked just fine for over two years.

David


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## MEBCWD (Jan 14, 2012)

Clay. said:


> I just saw a new Roger Web video he said Carveco is the new version of ArtCam, and he said Carveco is his go to software


Both Carveco and Aspire will make models as well as other 3d modeling software. Carveco and Aspire will also do CAM as well as the CAD portion of a project.

You might also want to watch the video he did on Vectric Aspire software 3 days ago where he tells you that Aspire is the software you need to make 3D models.


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## Clay. (Apr 30, 2019)

i got the full version of aspire software and learning how to use it by watching youtube videos

i got the axiom pro 6 today, it has a 220 plug, do i need a 110v to 220v converter box that cost over $100 or can i get away with buying a 110v to 220v converter box that cost under $30 
ebay.com/itm/222616921973

i see there are 100w 110v to 220v converter box and 500w 110v to 220v converter box i dont know if i need more than 500w

i read in link below (4th post) that rockler stores have the axiom pro 6 running on the show floor with a 110v to 220v converter box
and that rockler sells the 110v to 220v converter box for about $130
Getting ready to take the plunge | Axiom Forum

i had one of these cheap 110 to 220 plugs (link below) and i plugged machine up for less than 1 minute and the machine traveled to bottom left (home) and then i unplugged it, was a message on computer/controller box that said LU i dont know if that was a error code for low power, i hope i did not hurt the machine i only plugged it in for a few seconds with the tiny 100 to 220 plug
https://www.110220volts.com/univ-6.html

i called them days ago and added the $499 dust collection system but when machine got here i realized the shoe for it was sold separately for a additional $159 plus $9 shipping, i called and they sold it to me with free shipping



>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

i went to rockler online and they have a $139 3000watt 110 to 220 step up and in the add it says "Allows you to use 220V power tools, such as the Axiom Autoroute Pro line of CNC routers."

so i need a 3000 watt i found some 3000watt for less about $80 so i am probably not going to buy the $139 one but i guess it will be fine as long as it is 3000watt

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

oh yea the tool files for the amana axiom bit sets that i bought, the download is right there where you buy axiom pro on the axiom web site, that helps glad i went with buying bits from axiom web site


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## difalkner (Jan 3, 2012)

I would see what it takes to get a true and dedicated 220v outlet installed for the machine.

David


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## MEBCWD (Jan 14, 2012)

Clay in that same post that says they are using one in the local Rockler store he also advises that should only be a temporary fix and you should get a dedicated 220v outlet installed. Also don't think you are saving money when the power ratings are equal on electronics today because a lot of the Chinese import items don't really meet the ratings they quote.

I would not mess with one of the 110v to 220v converter boxes and go ahead and have a dedicated 220v outlet installed as David advised and others in the forum post you linked to. That way you know that the power is adequate and not taking the chance that you end up damaging the new CNC or starting a fire and burning down your house just to save a little money.


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## MEBCWD (Jan 14, 2012)

Clay I suggest watching the tutorials that came with Aspire first because some YouTube videos might have things that are too advanced for your learning curve and possibly make it harder to learn the software. 

Mark Lindsay does have some excellent videos for the beginning users of Vectric software and here is a link to his video page on YouTube. Find the first in the series and work your way through them. https://www.youtube.com/user/dusty82elky/videos

Use the link to the tutorials from your Desktop and use the Catagory option. Watch all of the videos in order so you learn the basics first. That way you learn from easy(basic) to hard(advanced) and shouldn't get lost and over your head.


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

MEBCWD said:


> some YouTube videos might have things that are too advanced for your learning curve and possibly make it harder to learn the software..


My first thought when watching a DIY youtube video is never about it being too advanced for me. My thought always is, can I actually learn something from this video, or is this guy an idiot? So far idiot is winning.

So my vote is tank youtube, except for cartoons, and watch the tutorials. Both should make you happy.


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## Gary Wiant (Jun 7, 2017)

JOAT - I think we must watch the same Youtubers


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

Gary Wiant said:


> JOAT - I think we must watch the same Youtubers


We have definitely GOT to watch more cartoons.


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## BalloonEngineer (Mar 27, 2009)

Clay. said:


> so i need a 3000 watt i found some 3000watt for less about $80 so i am probably not going to buy the $139 one but i guess it will be fine as long as it is 3000watt


Please be aware that to get 3000 watts, you will need a 30 amp 120V circuit. 15Amp is 1800W (15 x 120 = 1800) and a 20 amp 120V circuit is only 2400W. It is doubtful that you have a suitable 120V circuit that can provide 3000W.

As others have suggested, you need to have a 220V circuit run. All you need is a 15A 220V circuit, but you can have a 20A one for just a little more (12AWG wire instead of 14). You may be able to adapt a dryer outlet if you have one in your shop.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

The dryer outlet for 220 is unused in my garage. I'm pretty sure it will work fine, but I'd have an electrician adapt it rather than doing it myself.


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## Clay. (Apr 30, 2019)

my dad tried to run a 220 line that ran a water heater in the attic years ago before it was replaced with a gas water heater

he dropped it down the wall from the attic but i guess it is not a real 220 line there are not 2 hot wires

we looked up on youtube we need a 220 breaker from the breaker box to make a real 220 line

i hooked the 220 line we currently have up to the machine and the green light on the large axiom box computer/controller flashed intermittently like something was wrong so we unplugged it after a few seconds

the tiny 110 to 220 plug (link below) did not make the green light flash like that
https://www.110220volts.com/univ-6.html

i read what BalloonEngineer said

what if rockler recommends 3000 watt because they know it is more power than the axiom pro needs, so i might be ok

i think we are going to run the 3000 watt converter when it gets here before we try to run a line from a 220 breaker on the breaker box


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

Clay. said:


> i read what BalloonEngineer said
> 
> what if rockler recommends 3000 watt because they know it is more power than the axiom pro needs, so i might be ok
> 
> i think we are going to run the 3000 watt converter when it gets here before we try to run a line from a 220 breaker on the breaker box


By gosh, I am learning so very much from this thread. It is really educational and entertaining. We want pictures, lots and lots of pictures.


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## ger21 (Feb 10, 2019)

With all the money you've spent, you should hire an electrician to get a dedicated 20amp 240V line. 
If you haven't already, you could do thousands of dollars in damage to the electronics of your machine.

The $139 transformer that Rockler sells states that while it's 3000w max, it should only be used with a 2000w load. If you have a 2.2Kw spindle, The spindle alone may draw over 2000w under heavy loads.




> i got the full version of aspire software and learning how to use it by watching youtube videos


The best thing is to watch the Vectric videos.
https://support.vectric.com/tutorials/V9/?software=2&category=1&order=1


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## Pro4824 (Oct 17, 2015)

difalkner said:


> I would see what it takes to get a true and dedicated 220v outlet installed for the machine.
> 
> David


Am I missing something??? 
Sink $9,000 on a new Machine and Software and then try to save $100 by rigging up a 220v converter???
Just buy a 30a 220 breaker and run some wire. It's a no-brainer.


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## BalloonEngineer (Mar 27, 2009)

Clay. said:


> the tiny 110 to 220 plug (link below) did not make the green light flash like that
> https://www.110220volts.com/univ-6.html


That device will not work. Plug adapter, not voltage converter. If I spent that kind of money on the machine, I certainly would not keep screwing around with plugging it into improper plugs and voltages. Your machine, your money, your choice.


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## MEBCWD (Jan 14, 2012)

Clay stop trying to experiment plugging in the new machine without having the proper power in place. You could damage the controller and it will cost you more to replace it than when it was new. The manual will tell you to use the proper outlet for the machine and if you mess around trying other things you could be messing up the machine and voiding the warranty at the same time.


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## The CNCGuy (May 10, 2019)

I've been running the Axiom Pro 6 and 4 other systems on the ELC TR-300 for over 5 years and have never had a problem, and I've cut up to 3/4" aluminum.

This unit has a meter so you can see the power you're getting.

The VFD for the 2.2Kw spindle is set at 10 amps, and these units have never tripped a 15 amp breaker when running for 18 or more hours.


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## ger21 (Feb 10, 2019)

> The VFD for the 2.2Kw spindle is set at 10 amps


That 10 amps is the 3 phase output to the spindle. In most cases the spindle doesn't even draw half that.
If the VFD ever actually outputs 10 amps to the spindle, the VFD can draw 20-25amps of single phase 240V, to create the 10 amps 3 phase.


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## BalloonEngineer (Mar 27, 2009)

The CNCGuy said:


> I've been running the Axiom Pro 6 and 4 other systems on the ELC TR-300 for over 5 years and have never had a problem, and I've cut up to 3/4" aluminum.
> 
> This unit has a meter so you can see the power you're getting.
> 
> The VFD for the 2.2Kw spindle is set at 10 amps, and these units have never tripped a 15 amp breaker when running for 18 or more hours.


The ELC TR-3000 240V output is not a US style 240V (two hots, 120V each out of phase to each other), it is international style (1 240V hot). This is according to the manufacturer. It is not designed for running something designed to run on US 240V circuits. None of these devices “create” power, the Axiom requires more power than you can get out of a standard 110V household circuit, it is designed and wired to run off a US 240V plug, and that’s what he needs to arrange for. 

Several people have advised Clay on what he needs to do. I do not understand why he is asking for advise, then not listening to what the experienced folks here have advised, but that is his choice to make.


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## Clay. (Apr 30, 2019)

we think the 220 plug is working now

it runs the machine and the green light is not flickering any more

my dad said he switch the wires around on the plug, like only thing that changed was trading places on the outlet of the white wire and the black wire so i guess the plug is fixed now

i used the pad to move all the axis' around and turn the spindle on and off, i got a giant inch thick 4'x8' board of mdf to practice on, i am going to wait until the axiom pro dust shoe, the cyclone bucket dust collection kit, and the 10 gallon 6 hp shop vac gets here

i got these 4 small tables for $10 each instead of the $599 axiom stand


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## Pro4824 (Oct 17, 2015)

Clay. said:


> we think the 220 plug is working now
> 
> it runs the machine and the green light is not flickering any more
> 
> my dad said he switch the wires around on the plug, like only thing that changed was trading places on the outlet of the white wire and the black wire so i guess the plug is fixed now


That's great news Clay!!!
Now let the FUN begin!!!
Watch those Vectric tutorials and post lots of pictures success or failure, we love both!!! Might wanna start with some cheap bits to break while learning the feeds and speeds. Have fun!! 
Joe. 🙂


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## Clay. (Apr 30, 2019)

i created a .mmg tool path with the spindle set a few inches higher than it could touch anything and let it run for a few minutes just watching the machine move by its self without me touching the pendant and then i pushed in the big red emergency button and nothing happened the emergency button did not stop anything

other than the emergency button doing absolutely nothing the axiom pro seems to be working like it should

is there something i am not understanding about the emergency button do i need to set the machine up to use the emergency button or do i just have a faulty emergency button ?

i guess if i have a faulty emergency it does not matter there is the on off switch and 220 outlet is just as close as the emergency button

i just wish i knew for sure if the emergency button is faulty or if i am missing something here

my issue with the emergency button is not a big deal i probably should just forget about it, maybe i broke the emergency off button when i plugged it in wrong

yep going to start trying some wood carving soon, when the dust collection and shop vac get here


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

Clay. said:


> i got these 4 small tables for $10 each instead of the $599 axiom stand


And you are going to trust 4 $10 tables to hold an X$ heavy machine? All in all, wondering if we're being messed with.


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## Clay. (Apr 30, 2019)

16 legs are better than 4

habitat for humanity is where i got them on Saturdays they are giving stuff away


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## ger21 (Feb 10, 2019)

> i just wish i knew for sure if the emergency button is faulty or if i am missing something here


Does it come with a manual?

Maybe call Axiom?


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

That Wizard is copyrighted by the way. It is an original design by me, not taken off the internet.


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## Gary Wiant (Jun 7, 2017)

Good luck to you Clay but for everyone else what are the odds that the tables lets give out before the wrong electrical connection once he puts a load on his unit?


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

I wouldn't trust those tables - even if he connected them all together.


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## BalloonEngineer (Mar 27, 2009)

My back hurts just thinking about bending over to that height to change bits or clamp stock. My spoilboard is at 39” from the floor. When I change bits they are at elbow height.


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## Clay. (Apr 30, 2019)

my back dont hurt at all when i am sitting in a chair next to my machine, all you cnc standing guys got the wrong idea

i called axiom about the emergency button they said machine gets bumped around in shipping a lot and emergency button breaker probably got disconnected and that i could open it and twist it back together, they said only difference in on off switch and the emergency button is that you can put a pad lock on the emergency button so i am not interested in messing with it, the machine works good for me

it is a great machine and there is lots of support for it

below are pics of my 1st try at wood carving, 1st time i ever used a cnc to cut anything, the 1st tool path i made the step over percent to hi or something i will figure it out still not bad for my very 1st attempt, 2nd tool path with smaller finishing bit worked perfectly but i wish i would of make the 2nd tool path go a little deeper or deeper detail around the face and beard, the first tool path i messed that up went to deep and messed up pretty much every where on the 1st tool path

i wonder if i did a whole carving with just the smaller finishing bit with 1 tool path if that would be to much work for the smaller finishing bit


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

OK I guess, but what I'd like to see is something designed by you. Original work, not someone else's work.


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## MEBCWD (Jan 14, 2012)

BalloonEngineer said:


> My back hurts just thinking about bending over to that height to change bits or clamp stock. My spoilboard is at 39” from the floor. When I change bits they are at elbow height.


The bed on mine is 47" off the floor and it sure is nice when changing bits and setting up a blank to cut.


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## MEBCWD (Jan 14, 2012)

Clay you have Aspire so the toolpath preview will show you what it is going to look like when cut. Make sure you twiddle the view so you can see what the depth looks like. Make adjustments then rerun the toolpaths and preview until you like how it looks. As long as you set everything up on your CNC correctly it will cut like the preview but remember you still need to clean the carving up.

Watch the tutorial videos and learn the basics.


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## Pro4824 (Oct 17, 2015)

Wow! You're not wasting any time learning how to operate that thing!

My first cut was much less ambitious than yours. 🙂


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## MEBCWD (Jan 14, 2012)

Clay you have Aspire so the toolpath preview will show you what it is going to look like when cut. Make sure you twiddle the view so you can see what the depth looks like. Make adjustments then rerun the toolpaths and preview until you like how it looks. As long as you set everything up on your CNC correctly it will cut like the preview but remember you still need to clean the carving up.

Watch the tutorial videos and learn the basics.


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## Clay. (Apr 30, 2019)

i got a aspire video saved that shows exactly what you are saying about tweeking it and previewing, not sure if vectric lets you but aspire has a really powerful tool that lets you smooth on a percentage scale and the previews make it look like there will be very little cleaning after carving is done but i dont know that for sure because i have yet to try it

basically i just wanted to try because i was not even sure what i was doing so i did very little tweeking just wanted to know how setting the z zero works with the touch puck

but yea the tweeeking i think i might need to watch just that 1 video about 10 more times or watch it and pause it while i am trying to create a tool path, lots to learn and looks like a lot of it i will want to try my own settings and see if i like them better than the training video i dont need to rush maybe i will learn over weeks or months a little wood or a lot of wood either way i know i am gong to love carving on the axiom for a long time


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## MEBCWD (Jan 14, 2012)

Not sure what happened with the double post. It shows to be exactly 2 hours between them so that is strange.

You need to watch out using the smoothing filter it will actually reduce the detail in the model but if the model has a lot of noise in it is a great tool.

As far as cleaning up the carving that all depends on several factors, different woods cut differently, some cut cleaner than others and between boards cuts will be different. Other materials present other problems. It will take you a while to figure out what woods you want to use most of the time. Sharp bits are better than dull bits and different brands will cut differently. The same bit will also cut differently on different machines. An aggressive bit might cause small tears in the cut that have to be cleaned up. It is just part of the fun of CNC work.


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## Clay. (Apr 30, 2019)

is it a problem if i only used the 1/16” tapered ball nose bit and do just 1 tool path and not use the 1/4” radius core box bit

will it make the 1/16” tapered ball nose go dull faster

is there another reason besides speed to use different bits and tool paths


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## MEBCWD (Jan 14, 2012)

You can get by just using a small ball nose bit some times, it just all depends on how much material is left on the model to be removed. You do take the chance of breaking small bits when not doing a roughing pass because the finish pass is basically for removing a small amount of material in one pass and you are forcing it to remove large amounts in one pass. A roughing pass removes a majority of the waste material in several passes with a larger bit so the small bit is allowed to remove the small amounts left without being overfed and causing problems with bit flexing and deflection from a lot of material.

Okay now that I explained that I'll also add that as long as you keep your feed and speed rates correct for the smaller finish bit and the amount of material you are removing it can be done. Some drawbacks are you will not get as much life from the bit and you do take the chance of breaking bits and the cutting times will be slower because of the extra material that needs to be removed with the smaller bit. The pluses would include not having an extra tool change and you save the time the roughing pass would take.

One more thing you need to make sure of is the cutting length of the finish bit needs to be long enough to cut to the full depth of the waste material or you will break the bit.


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