# The time has arrived for a revolution in america



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

I'm probably right in thinking that routers were invented in America, and like so many countries that have been first to embrace new technology, America is no different in ending up with outdated routers. Americans keep telling me that Porter Cable style template guides are the standard, and if this is so it's plain stupid! Firstly, fixed base routers appear to be more prevalent than plunge routers, the latter being far more versatile than fixed base ones. Plunge routers can do EVERYTHING that a fixed base one can plus LOTS more. This is a FACT, so why aren't plunge routers being promoted. I'm aware that there are "combo" units that have a fixed and plunge base but there really is no substitute for a tool specifically designed for a purpose.
Back to the present design of American routers, most have a magnificent BIG opening in the base but then fit a sub-base with a tiny opening, sheer madness! It's madness because only the P.C. style template guides fit and these restrict the internal diameter such that one is left with the use of a smaller selection of bits, also with smaller guides it isn't possible to SEE what the tip of the bit is doing, and most importantly, with most of your routers the collet will not pass through the guide, restricting the depth of cut, also if the operator plunges too far, the collet rubs on the guide which can unscrew the guide, I know, it's happened to me on two occasions when I used the PC style guide because I didn't have the exact size in a sensible one piece guide for my Makita.
America isn't the only country ending up with outdated technology that it was the first to introduce. The UK was the first country to introduce television in about 1937 using the 405 line system and in the meantime when TV was re-introduced after the war, other countries opted for the higher resolution 625 system and only started the changeover in the mid 60's and instead of the five year envisaged changeover period, it took something like 20 years.
Another example is America where colour television was first introduced using the NTSC system whilst most of the rest of the world commenced broadcasts using the far superior German developed PAL system with a few, including France opted for an in-between system known as SECAM.
So my fellow routologists in America don't you think it's time to start a revolution, ASK for PLUNGE routers with BIG template guides (and whilst you're at it why not go all the way and ask for METRIC) if retailers keep getting such requests they are bound to eventually talk to the manufacturers.
There, I feel better now!


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Harry

In order to have a revolution you must dislike something I for one like the way the guides are setup in the states and if you want to use the bigger ones you can by drilling the hole out for the 1 1/2" guides ,that's almost the same as your funny 40mm guide that you like to use all the time..many times I need to use a smaller guides for dovetail jobs for just one of them..

So to say no need to fix it if it's not broke..

===
==

===


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

_*Routologist?*_ (ROTFLMAO!)

I'm sort of on the edge of this fence on this and I don't know if an answer from me is even a matter.

I don't use guides and bushings often. When I do, I usually am following something of detail, so a smaller bushing. I've used with larger bits and yes, then you are not seeing the cut, but still you are following your pattern.

To Harry, reading your post - before reading Bob's response, I too wondered why you didn't machine out your base. I've wondered the same of mine, just for using large bits in a table or bottom cleaning bits in planing jigs. 

But for larger bits when using guides and bushings? Don't you loose that detail with each larger bushing you go to? It is so for me.

I know with both your experience (Harry and Bob), that I am in homage and not telling either of you anything new. There is a point with me, that I change from bushings in a guide/edge of pattern below the router to the sub-base/baseplate as the bushing inside an external guide beside the sub-base/baseplate in my jigs. Of course then the pattern is locked to that sub-base/baseplate size instead of to a particular size of bushing... And yes, at that size, there is no detail. And I've also used accessory baseplates with oversized so-called bushings.

So I can see both sides of this, but for your side Harry-- Why are you so passionate about it? I've heard you say this numerous times in different ways, in different threads. I guess I am in the dark on that and I just don't understand that yet. Please explain for me why you feel this as an important feature.


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## Tool Home LLC (Sep 18, 2012)

Harry:

It almost sounds like you've just asked for a Festool router...


Tom


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Fixed base routers are more stable than plunge routers, they have less side flex. I think Makita's new quick release lever for guide bushings is a great design but... Nobody makes brass guide bushings in this style. Bosch is the only company that has a plunge lock out for easy table use without removing the springs.(1619EVS) Triton makes a nice dedicated table router that is terrible for freehand use. Nobody has everything right.

No question the math is easier with metric guide bushings and bits. Many people have a rough time working with fractions and this is the obvious solution. Everyone can make change for a dollar. The problem with this is companies that have metric bushings available in the rest of the world do not offer them in the US which is the largest market. They are afraid that the metric items will not be accepted.

When the companies wont listen we have to take action to improve things. Whiteside has developed and released the metric 460 bit set at my request. Freud metric bits are now available. In a couple of weeks I will have the prototype metric brass guide bushing sets in both PC and the larger Oak Park/Lee Valley styles for evaluation. We are making progress.


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Tool Home LLC said:


> It almost sounds like you've just asked for a Festool router...


Hi Tom

Or a deWalt DW625 (originally a German Elu), a deWalt DW621 (also originally an Elu) or any number of other European or Japanese routers inspired by the original Elu plunge routers of the 1950s and 1960s. I'm with Harry - plunge routers make much more sense for 90% of woodworking tasks, metric makes even more sense! If it ain't broke, don't fix it? To most of us furriners it is! :blink:

Regards

Phil


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## Tool Home LLC (Sep 18, 2012)

Phil P said:


> Hi Tom
> 
> Or a deWalt DW625 (originally a German Elu), a deWalt DW621 (also originally an Elu) or any number of other European or Japanese routers inspired by the original Elu plunge routers of the 1950s and 1960s. I'm with Harry - plunge routers make much more sense for 90% of woodworking tasks, metric makes even more sense! If it ain't broke, don't fix it? To most of us furriners it is! :blink:
> 
> ...


I agree, Phil!




> The problem with this is companies that have metric bushings available in the rest of the world do not offer them in the US which is the largest market. They are afraid that the metric items will not be accepted.


Festool, for one, sells metric, snap-in copy rings for their plunge routers in North America. They also support PC bushings.

Stanley may have bought almost everything after B&D dumbed-down the designs but they don't own the entire market. At least not yet...


Tom


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

Harry, you are talking about evolution not revolution.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

If there is anything that we know about Harry it is that he is experienced and wise. Mike and Bob, a large opening does not prevent you from using a small bushing but a small opening does prevent you from using a large one. Mike is right. A fixed base router is nice for some jobs but a plunge router will do those too. I still use my fixed base routers for some jobs but I don't need to.

Anybody in the US that doesn't think that they will eventually change to metric is deluding themselves. Most, if not all, of the US's foreign trade is in metric measure already. When I work on my vehicles (supposedly North American made) I take imperial and metric tools with me. I have made the decision not to buy any more imperial sized tools. I think they are about to be a bad investment with poor chances of a decent return on my money should I decide to sell them unless I do it soon.

There are many reasons for a country not to want to change. Not having to admit that someone came up with a better idea, purchasing patent rights, and sometimes its just politics.


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## Marco (Feb 21, 2009)

The U.S. was suppose to go metric back in the 70's... remember? About all we got out of it was the 2 liter bottle. I believe Jesus will be on a white horse comng down from Heaven and the U.S. will be using fractions and feet to determine when and where he will land.


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## remotelarry (Sep 3, 2012)

*Metrification of the US*

I recall that one of the arguments in the 70's against going metric was that all the factory tooling would have to be changed. Modern CNC tooling doesn't care one way or the other and almost all the machinists I know use both metric and Imperial. I also believe that the US school systems are teaching metric anyway. We have 10 fingers (most of us anyway) so we can count to 10, not 16 or 32 so we can do Imperial fractions. I am personally very comfortable with metric measures and see a gradual shift (operative word = gradual) towards metric going forward. Once an inch was standardized to 2.54 centimeters exactly most of the conversions became almost easy to do in my head. 

One thing, though, I never quite figured out why tenths, hundredths and thousandths of an inch, being decimal in nature, never was discussed much in comparing Imperial measurements versus the metric system. Machinists seldom use fractions, only decimal measures. Woodworkers seem to use fractions, say so many 64ths of an inch, and not so much decimals. Seems to me if woodworkers would use decimal inches they would have much of the utility of the metric system. Who cares what the base number is one inch or 2.54 centimeters or 1 centimeter versus 0.3937 inch. If it's in decimal format just add or subtract the numbers.


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

If this was a metric/imperial consideration alone--

I think this was said here before- unbeknownst to most Americans, we have shifted to the metric system. Bearings are measured here in millimeters. Most of our manufacturing is done overseas and is metric. Tires, autos all metric. 

Except for some bits, which are also available in metric, some blades, which are also measured as metric, router chucks/collets, which some are also available in metric, router bushings, which are also available in metric... what exactly is left here as imperial besides some tape measures and how we figure out our measurement references?

EDIT-- Oh, I forgot. Gallons of milk and gasoline. So I guess we need to convert our cows over and we're almost there?


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

remotelarry said:


> I recall that one of the arguments in the 70's against going metric was that all the factory tooling would have to be changed. Modern CNC tooling doesn't care one way or the other and almost all the machinists I know use both metric and Imperial. I also believe that the US school systems are teaching metric anyway. We have 10 fingers (most of us anyway) so we can count to 10, not 16 or 32 so we can do Imperial fractions. I am personally very comfortable with metric measures and see a gradual shift (operative word = gradual) towards metric going forward. Once an inch was standardized to 2.54 centimeters exactly most of the conversions became almost easy to do in my head.
> 
> One thing, though, I never quite figured out why tenths, hundredths and thousandths of an inch, being decimal in nature, never was discussed much in comparing Imperial measurements versus the metric system. Machinists seldom use fractions, only decimal measures. Woodworkers seem to use fractions, say so many 64ths of an inch, and not so much decimals. Seems to me if woodworkers would use decimal inches they would have much of the utility of the metric system. Who cares what the base number is one inch or 2.54 centimeters or 1 centimeter versus 0.3937 inch. If it's in decimal format just add or subtract the numbers.


That's correct and we also use GD&T and ISO standards to set geometric and tolerancing parameters based on datum's and datum references found within feature control frames. Both CD&T and ISO are international standards.


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

remotelarry said:


> One thing, though, I never quite figured out why tenths, hundredths and thousandths of an inch, being decimal in nature, never was discussed much in comparing Imperial measurements versus the metric system. Machinists seldom use fractions, only decimal measures. Woodworkers seem to use fractions, say so many 64ths of an inch, and not so much decimals. Seems to me if woodworkers would use decimal inches they would have much of the utility of the metric system. Who cares what the base number is one inch or 2.54 centimeters or 1 centimeter versus 0.3937 inch. If it's in decimal format just add or subtract the numbers.


Because although tenths, hundredths and thousandths are base 10 they still are based on decimals of inches not meters.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

remotelarry said:


> I recall that one of the arguments in the 70's against going metric was that all the factory tooling would have to be changed. Modern CNC tooling doesn't care one way or the other and almost all the machinists I know use both metric and Imperial. I also believe that the US school systems are teaching metric anyway. We have 10 fingers (most of us anyway) so we can count to 10, not 16 or 32 so we can do Imperial fractions. I am personally very comfortable with metric measures and see a gradual shift (operative word = gradual) towards metric going forward. Once an inch was standardized to 2.54 centimeters exactly most of the conversions became almost easy to do in my head.
> 
> One thing, though, I never quite figured out why tenths, hundredths and thousandths of an inch, being decimal in nature, never was discussed much in comparing Imperial measurements versus the metric system. Machinists seldom use fractions, only decimal measures. Woodworkers seem to use fractions, say so many 64ths of an inch, and not so much decimals. Seems to me if woodworkers would use decimal inches they would have much of the utility of the metric system. Who cares what the base number is one inch or 2.54 centimeters or 1 centimeter versus 0.3937 inch. If it's in decimal format just add or subtract the numbers.


You are quite right Larry. Working to 1/10ths of an inch would be much easier. But I am guessing that the current system is based on the fact that you can take a line and with a compass split it in half, which can then be split into half again, and so on. Which would form the current system of imperial fractions. Fortuneatly we have surpassed that fairly antiquated system with accurate measuring tapes and rulers.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

bobj3 said:


> Hi Harry
> 
> In order to have a revolution you must dislike something I for one like the way the guides are setup in the states and if you want to use the bigger ones you can by drilling the hole out for the 1 1/2" guides ,that's almost the same as your funny 40mm guide that you like to use all the time..many times I need to use a smaller guides for dovetail jobs for just one of them..
> 
> ...


My dear friend, I well remember that you had a similar opinion when I started to promote the router skis, and look at you now!
I understand that when a person becomes familiar with doing things a certain way they become loathe to try change. I'm in a similar situation with Windows XP, I'm loathe to change to Windows 7, like I prolonged the use of Windows 98. All my friends are challenging me to change to Apple Mac. Next time I have a major hdd crash I'll decide which to change to.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

MAFoElffen said:


> _*Routologist?*_ (ROTFLMAO!)
> 
> I'm sort of on the edge of this fence on this and I don't know if an answer from me is even a matter.
> 
> ...


Mike, for answers to your questions may I respectfully suggest that you spend time going through my uploads which are all fully illustrated most with explanatory text.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Tool Home LLC said:


> Harry:
> 
> It almost sounds like you've just asked for a Festool router...
> 
> ...


The only problem with that Tom is the price!


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Mike said:


> Fixed base routers are more stable than plunge routers, they have less side flex. I think Makita's new quick release lever for guide bushings is a great design but... Nobody makes brass guide bushings in this style. Bosch is the only company that has a plunge lock out for easy table use without removing the springs.(1619EVS) Triton makes a nice dedicated table router that is terrible for freehand use. Nobody has everything right.
> 
> No question the math is easier with metric guide bushings and bits. Many people have a rough time working with fractions and this is the obvious solution. Everyone can make change for a dollar. The problem with this is companies that have metric bushings available in the rest of the world do not offer them in the US which is the largest market. They are afraid that the metric items will not be accepted.
> 
> When the companies wont listen we have to take action to improve things. Whiteside has developed and released the metric 460 bit set at my request. Freud metric bits are now available. In a couple of weeks I will have the prototype metric brass guide bushing sets in both PC and the larger Oak Park/Lee Valley styles for evaluation. We are making progress.


Mike, the only plunge router that I've owned that had side flex to the extent that in my table I had to fit shims to tilt it slightly forward so that as pressure was applied I was able to achieve a vertical cut, that router my friend was a 1/2" variable speed Bosch that I purchased in the year 2000, I forget the model number.
I appreciate the effort that you have put into the introduction of metric guides and bits, one day members will appreciate this thread of mine as so many members including yourself and Bobj3 have embraced router skis that I've promoted so heavily. I'm fairly patient!


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Marcel M said:


> Harry, you are talking about evolution not revolution.


Had I called the thread "evolution" hardly anyone would have taken a look Marcel!


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## AndyL (Jun 3, 2011)

MAFoElffen said:


> Tires, autos all metric.


Tires/tyres are a crazy one. They're metric while the wheels they go on are still measured in inches!


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Marcel M said:


> Because although tenths, hundredths and thousandths are base 10 they still are based on decimals of inches not meters.


Volt meters or amp meters Marcel?


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## remotelarry (Sep 3, 2012)

Seems to me last time I was in the UK that distance between towns was given in km but speed seemed to be in mph. Maybe that was in Ireland, not the UK, but it seemed odd to me. I know the speedometers are marked in both units but it seemed strange they talked in mph when metric distance was the norm.:wacko:


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## Chris Curl (Feb 13, 2012)

come on harry ... really? how many times has this topic come up now?

as usual, it is not black and white, but one of 50 or so shades of grey ... 

who in their right mind could possibly think that a plunge router is better for a table with a lift and a dedicated router?

same thing for a horizontal panto-router application.

and we have had this "discussion" about imperial versus metric way too many times. i'm done with that.


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

harrysin said:


> Volt meters or amp meters Marcel?


You're playing with me now Harry. :laugh:
Linear measurements Harry.


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

The worst part is converting from one to another and having to use both methods of measurements. It would be easier to use just one. Metric is more user friendly.


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## Marco (Feb 21, 2009)

I believe Metric is better than Imperial and easier to use but................ I didn't want to switch in the 70's and do not want to today because of the hassle of finding what you need in Metric sizes. I was looking for a 10mm drill bit a few weeks ago and found one not in a local store but on the Internet for $6.50 plus shipping. When I can go to the local store and get anything metric size I need then I will become "Metric Man". Until then I will be my normal "Imperial Pain In The Arse"


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

Tool Home LLC said:


> Harry:
> 
> It almost sounds like you've just asked for a Festool router...
> 
> ...


We've had a rather lengthy discussion about Festool products shortly before you joined us. If you would like to add to this discussion than you can resurrect the following threads: 
"Festool" in the portable routing forum
"Makita Rail System Router Compatibility" also in the portable routing forum

I for one would like your input.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Marcel M said:


> You're playing with me now Harry. :laugh:
> Linear measurements Harry.


Ah Marcel, the penny has just dropped, you meant METRES.


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## Maurice Adams (Jun 7, 2009)

Glad you got that off your chest!
BTW, I have 2 plunge routers.


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

harrysin said:


> Ah Marcel, the penny has just dropped, you meant METRES.


Do I need to teach you how to spell too? :laugh:


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## Tool Home LLC (Sep 18, 2012)

Marcel M said:


> We've had a rather lengthy discussion about Festool products shortly before you joined us. If you would like to add to this discussion than you can resurrect the following threads:
> "Festool" in the portable routing forum
> "Makita Rail System Router Compatibility" also in the portable routing forum
> 
> I for one would like your input.



I can sum up my opinion of various portable power tools by pointing out what I sell and what I own...

I sell Bosch, Makita, Hitachi, Milwaukee, and Festool. I can sell, but choose not to, Dewalt and Porter Cable.

Almost all of my power tools are Festool. I think they are a better value.

I have sold Festool to a lot of pro's and a lot of hobby woodworkers for several years. NOBODY has ever been disappointed or at least, they never expressed it to me. It is quite common for a pro to tell me after having a Festool for about a week that it has already paid for itself.

Dust from woodworking is very bad for your health. Dust from exotic species can be worse than bad for your health, it can terminate it. 

Imagine working upstairs trimming out an occupied house and needing to use a miter saw. Most people put their saw outside, like in the driveway. Every time you need a cut, you measure, write it down, go downstairs and out to the saw, cut, go back upstairs, repeat - ALL DAY LONG. Smart carpenters will take a few measurements at a time if possible.

Now, imagine cutting out all of those trips because you can have the saw right next to where you are working. What's that worth after about a week?

I have read a lot of the threads here and have seen a lot of valid information and I am grateful. I have also seen some misinformation, like the Makita saw is a lot cheaper than the Festool. 'Not here. Here, about 20%.


Tom


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

remotelarry said:


> Seems to me last time I was in the UK that distance between towns was given in km but speed seemed to be in mph. Maybe that was in Ireland, not the UK, but it seemed odd to me. I know the speedometers are marked in both units but it seemed strange they talked in mph when metric distance was the norm.:wacko:


Hi Larry

That was possibly Ireland. Over here distances are still quoted in miles and speed limits ar in MPH, but we buy oil and fuel in litres.....

Worse still (?) we have a mixture of metric and Imperial (inch) cutters with predominently 1/2in and 1/4in shanks, relatively few manufacturers/resellers offer metric shanks here as yet, although 8mm is growing in availability.

Regards

Phil


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Tool Home LLC said:


> I have sold Festool to a lot of pro's and a lot of hobby woodworkers for several years. NOBODY has ever been disappointed or at least, they never expressed it to me. It is quite common for a pro to tell me after having a Festool for about a week that it has already paid for itself.


Hi Tom

I'm going to disagree with you - up to a point. I have a number of Festool tools and in general I'm pretty happy with them, HOWEVER, some of their tools don't deliver the advantages I (and others) seek. I sold an OF1400 because to me it sat between too stools - not really powerful enough for a 1/2in router, too big for a small router. I currently have an EHL65 planer; this is a pretty good little machine, light and very handleable BUT it is underpowered for heavier cuts on hardwoods like oak and beech and the blades, which are single-sided, not only cost 4 to 5 times the price of straight Bosch or Makita TCT blades - they also don't seem to last more than 5 minutes on remodelling work or on new fire doors (which always contain staples for some unfathomable reason) before getting knicked at which time their cost and single-sided design causes cursing! I know others who have had problems with the current generation of jigsaws adn with the Kapex not really being robust enough to withstand general job site use (on finishing work). Before you go all defensive on me I use two Festool rail saws regularly as well as a couple of the smaller routers, so I'm aware of the upside as well, especially the excellent dust extraction (the efficacy of which depends to an extent on the nature of the work process or cut)

Regards

Phil


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## Tool Home LLC (Sep 18, 2012)

I was just stating my opinion and observations, Phil. I appreciate yours as well...

I prefer to talk through my customers' decisions prior to any Festool purchase and perhaps that's why I don't get any disgruntled ones. I just remembered that I had a woman buy a dust extractor from me on Amazon and didn't like it. That was a blind purchase. She didn't like it because back then, they hadn't been tested for full unit HEPA compliance and she wanted full unit HEPA compliance. They are all (but the AutoClean version) full unit HEPA compliant now though, which is important for RRP work on houses older than '78.

I like the 1400 but like Cicero said in ancient Rome, "suus cuique".


Tom


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

harrysin said:


> Another example is America where colour television was first introduced using the NTSC system whilst most of the rest of the world commenced broadcasts using the far superior German developed PAL system with a few, including France opted for an in-between system known as SECAM.
> So my fellow routologists in America don't you think it's time to start a revolution, ASK for PLUNGE routers with BIG template guides (and whilst you're at it why not go all the way and ask for METRIC) if retailers keep getting such requests they are bound to eventually talk to the manufacturers.
> There, I feel better now!


NTSC = Not Twice Same Colo(u)r!

I've been with you on the metric issue from the get go, Harry. I am also fully with you on the BIG template guides.


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## TRBaker (Jul 5, 2012)

I'm an old dog. I think I'll stick with the tricks I know and am happy with.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

mftha said:


> NTSC = Not Twice Same Colo(u)r!
> 
> I've been with you on the metric issue from the get go, Harry. I am also fully with you on the BIG template guides.


Has your health improved yet Tom? I'm waiting, as no doubt you are, for the day that you fire-up your router.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Marcel M said:


> Do I need to teach you how to spell too? :laugh:


Marcel, I'm just a simple man and as such I easily get confused, that is why all my threads are fully illustrated because there could be other members similarly affected.


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

harrysin said:


> Marcel, I'm just a simple man and as such I easily get confused, that is why all my threads are fully illustrated because there could be other members similarly affected.


I'm sorry Harry but my spell check will not allow me to spell meter the way that you do. It doesn't even recognize the word. :'( Bear in mind that I and apparently my spell check are American. Time for a spelling lesson.

For the unit of measurement equaling approximately 1.094 yards, meter is the American spelling, and metre is preferred everywhere else. The same distinction applies to the terms used in poetry and music—meter in American English, and metre everywhere else. Here’s the tricky part: For any type of device (i.e., an actual machine or gadget) designed to measure time, distance, speed, or intensity or to regulate current, meter is the preferred spelling everywhere. 

The following is an example of both spellings to describe the same thing even though the English version is clearly wrong since this is clearly American.

http://youtu.be/xXhSV9sY5C8

http://youtu.be/uU6c66mtPeE


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi

I'm to the point of going into the shop and if it has the metric marks on it ,it's going into the trash can,my own little revolution..  I'm so feed up with all this metric stuff, if I don't have it I can't use it.

===


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## TRBaker (Jul 5, 2012)

Amen!!!!


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## Chris Curl (Feb 13, 2012)

i'm with you bob!

but i need to keep the wrenches because some of my cars have metric sized bolts.

i guess this would be a counter-revolution!


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## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

Bob, I am with you on that one as well:yes4:


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

I'm sure that there were some people who never believed that a telegraph wire would be more reliable than the Pony Express, that a car would never replace a horse, that planes would never replace trains and ocean liners, etc. Welcome to the past guys. Your feet are firmly entrenched in it. No matter. The future will carry on without you.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi

" that a car would never replace a horse " not a good thing in my eyes I wish we still had the horse on the roads same thing for the telegraph, I like the trains....newer is not the best way all the time.. 

==


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

bobj3 said:


> Hi
> 
> " that a car would never replace a horse " not a good thing in my eyes I wish we still had the horse on the roads same thing for the telegraph, I like the trains....newer is not the best way all the time..
> 
> ==


Perhaps history would be a teacher here. Please read on.

Nineteenth-century cities depended on thousands of horses for their daily functioning. All transport, whether of goods or people, was drawn by horses. London in 1900 had 11,000 cabs, all horse-powered. There were also several thousand buses, each of which required 12 horses per day, a total of more than 50,000 horses. In addition, there were countless carts, drays, and wains, all working constantly to deliver the goods needed by the rapidly growing population of what was then the largest city in the world. Similar figures could be produced for any great city of the time.*

The problem of course was that all these horses produced huge amounts of manure. A horse will on average produce between 15 and 35 pounds of manure per day. Consequently, the streets of nineteenth-century cities were covered by horse manure. This in turn attracted huge numbers of flies, and the dried and ground-up manure was blown everywhere. In New York in 1900, the population of 100,000 horses produced 2.5 million pounds of horse manure per day, which all had to be swept up and disposed of. (See Edwin G. Burrows and Mike Wallace, Gotham: A History of New York City to 1898 [New York: Oxford University Press, 1999]).

In 1898 the first international urban-planning conference convened in New York. It was abandoned after three days, instead of the scheduled ten, because none of the delegates could see any solution to the growing crisis posed by urban horses and their output.

The problem did indeed seem intractable. The larger and richer that cities became, the more horses they needed to function. The more horses, the more manure. Writing in the Times of London in 1894, one writer estimated that in 50 years every street in London would be buried under nine feet of manure. Moreover, all these horses had to be stabled, which used up ever-larger areas of increasingly valuable land. And as the number of horses grew, ever-more land had to be devoted to producing hay to feed them (rather than producing food for people), and this had to be brought into cities and distributed—by horse-drawn vehicles. It seemed that urban civilization was doomed.

Crisis Vanished
Of course, urban civilization was not buried in manure. The great crisis vanished when millions of horses were replaced by motor vehicles. This was possible because of the ingenuity of inventors and entrepreneurs such as Gottlieb Daimler and Henry Ford, and a system that gave them the freedom to put their ideas into practice. Even more important, however, was the existence of the price mechanism. The problems described earlier meant that the price of horse-drawn transport rose steadily as the cost of feeding and housing horses increased. This created strong incentives for people to find alternatives. The automobile.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Marcel M said:


> I'm sorry Harry but my spell check will not allow me to spell meter the way that you do. It doesn't even recognize the word. :'( Bear in mind that I and apparently my spell check are American. Time for a spelling lesson.
> 
> For the unit of measurement equaling approximately 1.094 yards, meter is the American spelling, and metre is preferred everywhere else. The same distinction applies to the terms used in poetry and music—meter in American English, and metre everywhere else. Here’s the tricky part: For any type of device (i.e., an actual machine or gadget) designed to measure time, distance, speed, or intensity or to regulate current, meter is the preferred spelling everywhere.
> 
> ...


By golly Marcel, I'm now multi-lingual!


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

bobj3 said:


> Hi
> 
> " that a car would never replace a horse " not a good thing in my eyes I wish we still had the horse on the roads same thing for the telegraph, I like the trains....newer is not the best way all the time..
> 
> ==


I too wish we still had horses on the roads Bob. As a child, I and every other child whose parents grew roses were given the job of chasing after horse drawn carts with a bucket and small shovel to collect the manure. This doesn't indicate that motor vehicles weren't yet invented, but because WWII was on and there were very few motor vehicles on the roads due to lack of petrol (gasoline).
I know Bob, because of your propensity to buy every new tool that comes on the market, your above post was tongue in cheek, as was mine when I started this thread with the intenion of breathing some life into the forum. Having said that, I must add that I meant every single word.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> I'm sure that there were some people who never believed that a telegraph wire would be more reliable than the Pony Express, that a car would never replace a horse, that planes would never replace trains and ocean liners, etc. Welcome to the past guys. Your feet are firmly entrenched in it. No matter. The future will carry on without you.


You're so right Charles, there are so many members here who suffer from the "it was good enough for my father so it's good enough for me" syndrome


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## Harrison67 (May 30, 2012)

After helping my Dad and Uncles using a tractor powered buzz saw, it sure is nice to flip a switch and listen to the whir of a new, perfectly balanced, saw blade. These days, the belts are much smaller.:sarcastic:

I use both, Imperial and Metric. Some blueprints were in both, so transposing those dimensions came along with the job skills.


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

harrysin said:


> By golly Marcel, I'm now multi-lingual!


Indeed. :laugh:


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

bobj3 said:


> " that a car would never replace a horse " not a good thing in my eyes I wish we still had the horse on the roads same thing for the telegraph, I like the trains....newer is not the best way all the time..


Hmmm. I seem to remember reading somewhere that if the horse hadn't been replaced by the car the streets in neww York would have been 6 feet deep under horse manure by the 1950s....... :laugh:

Not all progress is bad

Regards

Phil


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## Marco (Feb 21, 2009)

Phil P said:


> Hmmm. I seem to remember reading somewhere that if the horse hadn't been replaced by the car the streets in neww York would have been 6 feet deep under horse manure by the 1950s....... :laugh:
> 
> Not all progress is bad
> 
> ...


And this would have been a bad thing? Bob wins this round!


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

I'm sure if still use the horse we Americans could change manure into fuel to run the farm machines and still feed the world like we now do ,

===


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## BernieW (Sep 12, 2006)

I think we are getting a little out in left field in this forum. This is Guide Bushings and Templates. I see where Harry was going and what he was trying to bring to the forum. But there are a few getting way off topic. Lets get back on topic. Thanks.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Thanks for that Bernie, it stopped me in time from stating a few political facts that may well have caused some angst.


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## BernieW (Sep 12, 2006)

Your welcome Harry. Just didn't want any hard feelings and it seemed to be heading that way.


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## reuelt (Dec 29, 2008)

Just another opinion.
Here in Australia (where Harry lives), almost all the routers sold have imperial size collets 1/2", or 1/4" or 1/8" (e.g. Dremel) and Metric router bits & metric guides bushes are usually hard to find or rather expensive.
It seems the most popular template guide bush kit is still the Porter Cable brass type.

Use 1/4" bit in 1/2" guide bush - for female template.
Use 1/4" bit in 1" guide bush for the inlay.
Seems very simple to most people

Also people making musical instuments would use Dremel 1/8" collet so they get the Porter cable inlay kit for 1/8" bit for fine work to get sharp corners.

The "40mm guide bush" has been over promoted TT. Why not just use trim routers with a small 3" round base plate. User can easily change base-plate sizes themselves too. For large bits the bearing on the bits have already taken over the role of guide bushes anyway.

Cheaper CNC may be the revolution - NOT more guide bushes nor metrication.



Reuel
(from Melbourne, Australia)


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## Hutzul (Oct 4, 2012)

*Posting dates*



harrysin said:


> ........
> So my fellow routologists in America don't you think it's time to start a revolution, ASK for PLUNGE routers with BIG template guides (and whilst you're at it why not go all the way and ask for METRIC) if retailers keep getting such requests they are bound to eventually talk to the manufacturers.
> There, I feel better now!


Quite right Harry, in my opinion !

My rant is the date format the USA insists on using, whilst as far as I am aware the rest of the world uses date/month year, the USA uses month/date/year:help:
When dates are given as numbers e.g. 01/10/12, in Britain this means 1st October 2012, but in USA this would be 10th January 2012, about 9 months difference.
Nowt to do with routing I know h34r: apologies:agree: 
Help! I've fallen off my soapbox :haha:


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Hi Hutzul

Surely it would be more logical to express dates in yyyy/mm/dd format. Oh wait, that's how computer databases hold them......

Regards

Phil


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

reuelt said:


> The "40mm guide bush" has been over promoted TT. Why not just use trim routers with a small 3" round base plate. User can easily cahge base-plate sizes themselves too. For large bits the bearing on the bits have already taken over the role of guide bushes anyway.
> 
> Cheaper CNC may be the revolution - NOT more guide bushes nor metrication.


Hi Reuel

A trim router often doesn't have the power required for template routing (I do enough 18mm MDF to be certain of this). Large bearing bits are very useful, but they have their limitations. With a guide bush and cutter I can reduce or enlarge a piece at will - this is sometimes a necessity.

Cheap CNC? Hah! CNC will never be that cheap IMHO. In any case you'd have a hard time dragging a CNC router to the place where you are installing, say, kitchen worktops (counter tops). They have their place, but they aren't the be all and end all. In any case CNC routers are often programmed in metric......... :yes4:

I'm with Harry on this one! At the end of the day, though, it doesn't matter if you use a stone axe or a CNC laser - it's getting the job done which matters

Regards

Phil


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## AndyL (Jun 3, 2011)

Phil P said:


> Hi Hutzul
> 
> Surely it would be more logical to express dates in yyyy/mm/dd format. Oh wait, that's how computer databases hold them......
> 
> ...


I think the Japanese do it that way. It makes a lot of sense!


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## Chris Curl (Feb 13, 2012)

when i think of a date or say it out loud, it is month first. for example, christmas is december 25th, independence day is july 4th, groundhog's day is februrary 2nd, my birthday is june 9th, and new years is january 1st.

i don't think of christmas as the 25th of december.

so for me it is more natural to write it the same way: MM/DD/YYYY


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

reuelt said:


> Just another opinion.
> Here in Australia (where Harry lives), almost all the routers sold have imperial size collets 1/2", or 1/4" or 1/8" (e.g. Dremel) and Metric router bits & metric guides bushes are usually hard to find or rather expensive.
> It seems the most popular template guide bush kit is still the Porter Cable brass type.
> 
> ...


I have repeated many times on this forum that there is nothing magical about a 40mm template guide other than it tends to be the largest size available and the merits of a LARGE guide are: the tip of the bit is visible so it's possible to see exactly what is happening, the collet on all routers can protrude through the guide making for a greater depth of cut, the swarf doesn't compact to produce excessive heat and certainly a wider range of bits can be safely used. Many of my posted projects state that a 1.5" or even a 1.25" guide would be satisfactory. I would respectfully suggest that you haven't done a great deal of template routing Reuel.


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

In addition to the points Harry mentioned there are many situations where bearing guided bits can't be used effectivly. IE.. with some bit profiles and a great deal of plunge routing. Guide bushings allow for the use of jigs like the ones shown.


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

harrysin said:


> I have repeated many times on this forum that there is nothing magical about a 40mm template guide other than it tends to be the largest size available and the merits of a LARGE guide are: the tip of the bit is visible so it's possible to see exactly what is happening, the collet on all routers can protrude through the guide making for a greater depth of cut, the swarf doesn't compact to produce excessive heat and certainly a wider range of bits can be safely used. Many of my posted projects state that a 1.5" or even a 1.25" guide would be satisfactory. I would respectfully suggest that you haven't done a great deal of template routing Reuel.


I agree with Harry that having a 40mm template guide would, if nothing else, improve versatility in the work environment. Having said that there is also a need for other sized template guides. Smaller guides will give more definition if indeed that is needed in a particular application. In conclusion having more options is preferable to having less so why not have it all. So who sells a 40mm guide bushing for my Makita 3612BR?


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## BRAVOGOLFTANGO (Oct 11, 2012)

Well color me purple and call me Prince, TV huh? Where can I get me one of these new fangled things called a TV? What's a TV even do? h34r:


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

harrysin said:


> there is nothing magical about a 40mm template guide other than it tends to be the largest size available


Hi Harry

You'd love these, then. Trend sell 50, 60 and *70*mm guide bushes for their T11 router over here (yep, it's a modified DW625). They also sell metric guide bushes from 7.8 to 40mm to fit the deWalt DW613/614/615/624/625 routers (and other compatible machines such as the Perles OF808, etc). The range also includes Imperial/inch sizes these days. They will fit other routers only if you use or make-up a sub base like their GB/5 sub bases










Regards

Phil


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

BRAVOGOLFTANGO said:


> Well color me purple and call me Prince, TV huh? Where can I get me one of these new fangled things called a TV? What's a TV even do? h34r:


TV is an abbreviation for Transvestite and you probably wouldn't want one.....or perhaps???

TRANSVESTITE
a person and especially a male who adopts the dress and often the behavior typical of the opposite sex especially for purposes of emotional or sexual gratification.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi

Just asking how many members buy items from the UK ??????

For me never...always to high in price and the shipping is real killer of the deal.. (to the US states )

===



Phil P said:


> Hi Harry
> 
> You'd love these, then. Trend sell 50, 60 and *70*mm guide bushes for their T11 router over here (yep, it's a modified DW625). They also sell metric guide bushes from 7.8 to 40mm to fit the deWalt DW613/614/615/624/625 routers (and other compatible machines such as the Perles OF808, etc). The range also includes Imperial/inch sizes these days. They will fit other routers only if you use or make-up a sub base like their GB/5 sub bases
> 
> ...


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## smokey1945 (Jan 12, 2009)

I bought the "Joint Genie" from the UK. I thought it was priced fairly, they paid shipping, I got it in two weeks, and it works great!

But...that was just a one time thing:blink:


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

bobj3 said:


> Just asking how many members buy items from the UK ??????


Hi Bob

Over on FOG (Festool Owners Goup) quite a few - in the UK we generally get models well before the USA and you can get Festool stuff in 115 volt over here (whereas the rest of Europe is 220 volt). 

On the Trend stuff, well Trend do have an outlet in the USA, but I don't see that so I don't know what range they offer, only that it's a lot smaller. I was merely pointing out that there is at least one firm out there who is listening to requests for extra large guide bushes and has taken the time to put such things into production.

The import thing works the other way round, too, y'know. After shipping items across the Atlantic, paying import duty, customs clearance and sales tax I'm often little or no better off than buying locally. I've done this enough tiimes to know that each time I do it I need to calculate the charges, exchange rates, etc very carefully before ordering

Regards

Phil


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Thanks smokey for the feed back

Was this the same thing you got from the UK and about the same price ??

Amazon.com: Joint Genie Professional 3/8" Dowelling tool for precision jointing of furniture, home improvement, carpentry, garden furniture, kitchens. Ideal for all woodworking needs where strong, precise jointing is required simple and easy to use d

==



smokey1945 said:


> I bought the "Joint Genie" from the UK. I thought it was priced fairly, they paid shipping, I got it in two weeks, and it works great!
> 
> But...that was just a one time thing:blink:


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## Harrison67 (May 30, 2012)

bobj3 said:


> Thanks smokey for the feed back
> 
> Was this the same thing you got from the UK and about the same price ??
> 
> ...



That looks like a very good made tool, but check out this guy's review on Amazon:


*"This review is from: Joint Genie Professional 3/8" Dowelling tool for precision jointing of furniture, home improvement, carpentry, garden furniture, kitchens. Ideal for all woodworking needs where strong, precise jointing is required simple and easy to use dowel jig. (Misc.)* 
Garbage!! followed the instructions and realized this thing is WAY too difficult to use. It's hard to be accurate, it's slow to do, and it is really hard to put it together to test it out first unless you make your own dowel pins. This is a great idea and not a bad product, my problem is dowel jointing sucks compared to biscuit joints. and the little screw for the brass piece helps you choose the depth, lost that little guy the first time I opened the case.

My advice save your $120 and buy a nice biscuit joiner, you will never regret it. 



If the guy lost the screw as soon as he opened the box, he sounds like a klutz; who should not be woodworking in the first place.:sarcastic:


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## smokey1945 (Jan 12, 2009)

Hi Bob,
Yes that is the one. In fact one of the reviews are mine. I just read the 2nd one and don'tr understand the difficulties he had. Mine was right on the money straight out of the box. Of course like everything else one has to measure correctly.

If one goes to their site they have some excellent videos showing how simple it is to use. 
Be Safe
Smokey


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## reuelt (Dec 29, 2008)

Phil P said:


> Hi Reuel
> 
> A trim router often doesn't have the power required for template routing (I do enough 18mm MDF to be certain of this). Large bearing bits are very useful, but they have their limitations. With a guide bush and cutter I can reduce or enlarge a piece at will - this is sometimes a necessity.
> 
> ...


Hi Phil,
I do have a whole set of "british-made" even guide bush up 10mm to 32mm and the imperial set 5/16" up to 3/4". I have a self-made 40mm because Hitachi do not stock 40mm guide bush in Austalia. The two I use most are 5/16" and 30mm. My 2 routers are both over 3HP. The problem in Australia is you cannot get proper metric bits e.g. I cannot get quality 12mm straight in 1/2" shank. 13mm is available but it will be useless to me. So I would be better off getting more bigger imperial guide bush like 1" or 1.5" which are available here in Australia and they are much cheaper. Also wood, metal and nuts and bolts are still mostly imperial sizes. e.g. They just call 1/8" thickness 3.2mm. What is the advantage?

CNC router now cost only between AUD$3,000 to AUD$6,000 at Carbatec here. To get quality work, CNC is the way to go.

BTW, I build & sell computers to a company to bundle with their CNC plasma metal cutting machines. Cost only about $AUD20,000. It is getting very popular even among rural farmers. Soon those farmers may just connect up a router to cut wood - using the same machine..

Reuel


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Marcel M said:


> I agree with Harry that having a 40mm template guide would, if nothing else, improve versatility in the work environment. Having said that there is also a need for other sized template guides. Smaller guides will give more definition if indeed that is needed in a particular application. In conclusion having more options is preferable to having less so why not have it all. So who sells a 40mm guide bushing for my Makita 3612BR?


You are a tadd too late Marcel, over the years I've made and given away lots of 40mm guides to suit the Makitas, the last two, shown here, were offered free of charge to members but surprisingly took quite some time to be claimed.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Phil P said:


> Hi Harry
> 
> You'd love these, then. Trend sell 50, 60 and *70*mm guide bushes for their T11 router over here (yep, it's a modified DW625). They also sell metric guide bushes from 7.8 to 40mm to fit the deWalt DW613/614/615/624/625 routers (and other compatible machines such as the Perles OF808, etc). The range also includes Imperial/inch sizes these days. They will fit other routers only if you use or make-up a sub base like their GB/5 sub bases
> 
> ...


I have actually seen those Phil. I personally have made them up to 50mm which I don't often use. Come to think of it I actually go up to 160mm, the diameter of the router base!


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

reuelt said:


> Hi Phil,
> I do have a whole set of "british-made" even guide bush up 10mm to 32mm and the imperial set 5/16" up to 3/4". I have a self-made 40mm because Hitachi do not stock 40mm guide bush in Austalia. The two I use most are 5/16" and 30mm. My 2 routers are both over 3HP. The problem in Australia is you cannot get proper metric bits e.g. I cannot get quality 12mm straight in 1/2" shank. 13mm is available but it will be useless to me. So I would be better off getting more bigger imperial guide bush like 1" or 1.5" which are available here in Australia and they are much cheaper. Also wood, metal and nuts and bolts are still mostly imperial sizes. e.g. They just call 1/8" thickness 3.2mm. What is the advantage?
> 
> CNC router now cost only between AUD$3,000 to AUD$6,000 at Carbatec here. To get quality work, CNC is the way to go.
> ...


You do surprise me regarding 12mm bits Reuel, here is a link to Carba-Tec who sell that size in quality Italian CMT brand. There are many other sources like Carbi-tool.
811 Straight Bits : CARBA-TEC


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## billg71 (Mar 25, 2011)

harrysin said:


> I'm probably right in thinking that routers were invented in America, and like so many countries that have been first to embrace new technology, America is no different in ending up with outdated routers. Americans keep telling me that Porter Cable style template guides are the standard, and if this is so it's plain stupid! Firstly, fixed base routers appear to be more prevalent than plunge routers, the latter being far more versatile than fixed base ones. Plunge routers can do EVERYTHING that a fixed base one can plus LOTS more. This is a FACT, so why aren't plunge routers being promoted. I'm aware that there are "combo" units that have a fixed and plunge base but there really is no substitute for a tool specifically designed for a purpose.
> Back to the present design of American routers, most have a magnificent BIG opening in the base but then fit a sub-base with a tiny opening, sheer madness! It's madness because only the P.C. style template guides fit and these restrict the internal diameter such that one is left with the use of a smaller selection of bits, also with smaller guides it isn't possible to SEE what the tip of the bit is doing, and most importantly, with most of your routers the collet will not pass through the guide, restricting the depth of cut, also if the operator plunges too far, the collet rubs on the guide which can unscrew the guide, I know, it's happened to me on two occasions when I used the PC style guide because I didn't have the exact size in a sensible one piece guide for my Makita.
> America isn't the only country ending up with outdated technology that it was the first to introduce. The UK was the first country to introduce television in about 1937 using the 405 line system and in the meantime when TV was re-introduced after the war, other countries opted for the higher resolution 625 system and only started the changeover in the mid 60's and instead of the five year envisaged changeover period, it took something like 20 years.
> Another example is America where colour television was first introduced using the NTSC system whilst most of the rest of the world commenced broadcasts using the far superior German developed PAL system with a few, including France opted for an in-between system known as SECAM.
> ...


Harry,

Glad you feel better, best to you and yours.

Sounds to me like you're just pissed you can't buy what you want in your own country but want to blame us Americans for that. Hey, we're used to being blamed for all the world's problems, go ahead and jump on the bandwagon, no big deal. Help yourself. Join the crowd.

Sounds to me what you're really looking for is a revolution in Australia.... There are plenty of metric guides available, if you can't buy one you need to look to your home country and ask the policymakers why. Seems like every country in the world outside the USA has adopted the metric system but you can't buy a router with a metric collet or metric bits and accessories?

Sounds like a personal problem to me. Maybe you should take care of your own back yard before complaining about what mine looks like.....

Best,
Bill


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

billg71 said:


> Harry,
> 
> Glad you feel better, best to you and yours.
> 
> ...




HAHAHAHA


rotflao.........

It would appear that you have made a personal judgment without knowing the "defendent"?


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Oh Bill knows me James but he has completely misunderstood my thread, or could it be that HE is being contraversial! Bill, EVERYTHING that I need for routing can be bought here in Australia, even things that I don't want like fixed base routers if you were to spend a lot of time looking!


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

harrysin said:


> You are a tadd too late Marcel, over the years I've made and given away lots of 40mm guides to suit the Makitas, the last two, shown here, were offered free of charge to members but surprisingly took quite some time to be claimed.


So Makita does not sell a 40mm guide bushing for my 3612BR. Perhaps Japan should start the revolution. :haha:


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## billg71 (Mar 25, 2011)

harrysin said:


> Oh Bill knows me James but he has completely misunderstood my thread, or could it be that HE is being contraversial!........


Guilty as charged, Harry!  Thought the discussion was getting kinda tame and needed a kick in the pants to get it going again. How much fun would life be if everyone agreed with everyone else? Pretty boring if you ask me. Mom always accused me of being "contrary", bless her soul.

Personally, I'm pretty familiar with metric fluid measurements from .5 to 1.75 liters  , not so good with long distances or speeds and getting better with small measurements thanks to working with the 32mm system and the Festoy tools. But I've lived with inches, feet and miles all my life and that's one trick this old dog can't unlearn.

Have fun, however you measure it!

Bill


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## reuelt (Dec 29, 2008)

harrysin said:


> You do surprise me regarding 12mm bits Reuel, here is a link to Carba-Tec who sell that size in quality Italian CMT brand. There are many other sources like Carbi-tool.
> 811 Straight Bits : CARBA-TEC


Last time I checked Carbitools, Craftmaster & CMT
The "long" straight 12mm bits available have only 1.25" cutting edges. Whereas 'long" straight 13mm or 1/2" bits have 2" cutting edges.

Since I have always used 1/2" bits have 2" (or 50mm) cutting edges, 12mm bits of that will replace my 1/2" bit is NOT available.


Reuel


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## reuelt (Dec 29, 2008)

harrysin said:


> I have repeated many times on this forum that there is nothing magical about a 40mm template guide other than it tends to be the largest size available and the merits of a LARGE guide are: the tip of the bit is visible so it's possible to see exactly what is happening, the collet on all routers can protrude through the guide making for a greater depth of cut, the swarf doesn't compact to produce excessive heat and certainly a wider range of bits can be safely used. Many of my posted projects state that a 1.5" or even a 1.25" guide would be satisfactory. I would respectfully suggest that you haven't done a great deal of template routing Reuel.


I just have the opinion that big template guide will make internal acute angles rounded which is unacceptable to me.
For me, the imperial template guides make more sense if used correctly e.g. 1/4" bit in 3/8" guide gives 1/16" displacement. 1/2" bit in 5/8" guide also gives 1/16" displacement. Since Formica laminate is 1/32" thick 2 faces = 1/16" thick.
Metric guides makes less sense. Formica is about 0.8mm but metric template guide will not give 1.6mm displacement.
IMHO, TT has a wrong idea of use of using large template guides. Sharp internal angles become spherical or eliptical. The heart shape will not be reproduced faithfully if 40mm template guide is used to make female tempates.


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Reuel, for close radii a smaller guide bushing is used. Most work can be done with the larger guide bushings which make it easy to see what you are cutting and to evacuate the chips.


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

Marcel M said:


> So Makita does not sell a 40mm guide bushing for my 3612BR. Perhaps Japan should start the revolution. :haha:


Marcel, these are the guide bushing part numbers for my 3612C. They may be the same for your 3612BR? Can't help to ask.

PS I note the 10mm guide is actually 9.5mm (3/8") and the 13mm guide is 12.7mm (1/2") ... go figure......:laugh:


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## gwizz (Mar 3, 2012)

Your doing a Great Job Harry, I must say you manage to get things stirred up and lively.

An aspect of metric versus fractional imperial you haven’t dealt with is that wood workers who have had digital amputations are handy capped when working with math based on 10 (s) although they probably received their digital amputations when they were cutting the preverbial apple up into 32 equal pieces so they could calculate how to add ¾ of 1 piece to another apple they had previously cut into 8 pieces .

As for plunge versus fixed you have to admit plunge routers have more things and stuff on them so the operating complications sky rocket. For myself I have a hard time walking and chewing gum at the same time so I stick with a fixed base router.

I think we should start a new thread and have a community design project and mutually design a podium or at the very least a soap box for you so you will keep at it.

I propose starting it with :
Material : Prickly wood ( if you don’t gently stick people they don’t move )
Features : Cup Holder ( sorry us Canadians can’t go without our Timmy’s – Reg or DD )
Ejection Seat: Sometimes you’ll have to cut and run quick.

Comfortable chair : we all need you around lots so keep you comfy. 

Anyone else have any suggestions ?

please no enema tubes !


*** With all the banter there is a lot of great information, source tips and routing suggestions to be had Thanks Harry


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Marcel M said:


> So Makita does not sell a 40mm guide bushing for my 3612BR. Perhaps Japan should start the revolution. :haha:


Sure thay do Marcel, but here in Australia and New Zealand, the leading countries in routing technology!

Makita - Accessories - Templet Guide


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

harrysin said:


> Sure thay do Marcel, but here in Australia and New Zealand, the leading countries in routing technology!


:sarcastic:


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

reuelt said:


> I just have the opinion that big template guide will make internal acute angles rounded which is unacceptable to me.
> For me, the imperial template guides make more sense if used correctly e.g. 1/4" bit in 3/8" guide gives 1/16" displacement. 1/2" bit in 5/8" guide also gives 1/16" displacement. Since Formica laminate is 1/32" thick 2 faces = 1/16" thick.
> Metric guides makes less sense. Formica is about 0.8mm but metric template guide will not give 1.6mm displacement.
> IMHO, TT has a wrong idea of use of using large template guides. Sharp internal angles become spherical or eliptical. The heart shape will not be reproduced faithfully if 40mm template guide is used to make female tempates.


It sounds like you are referring to the RADIUS that can be produced in which case it is of course the diameter of the BIT that determines this, not the size of the template guide.
When trimming Formica either a bearing bit or laminex trimmer attachment is used, not a template guide.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

gwizz said:


> Your doing a Great Job Harry, I must say you manage to get things stirred up and lively.
> 
> An aspect of metric versus fractional imperial you haven’t dealt with is that wood workers who have had digital amputations are handy capped when working with math based on 10 (s) although they probably received their digital amputations when they were cutting the preverbial apple up into 32 equal pieces so they could calculate how to add ¾ of 1 piece to another apple they had previously cut into 8 pieces .
> 
> ...


Here in Australia it's not uncommon for men to wear thongs (the shoe type!) in which case they can rely on their toes. It's a bit late, 10.20pm to respond to the rest of your interesting post.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

reuelt said:


> Last time I checked Carbitools, Craftmaster & CMT
> The "long" straight 12mm bits available have only 1.25" cutting edges. Whereas 'long" straight 13mm or 1/2" bits have 2" cutting edges.
> 
> Since I have always used 1/2" bits have 2" (or 50mm) cutting edges, 12mm bits of that will replace my 1/2" bit is NOT available.
> ...


You're now being more specific in the specs Reuel. I've given some thought into this and I can't think of any of my numerous projects where a 12mm x 50mm bit was essential. Could you describe what you need it for.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

As for plunge versus fixed you have to admit plunge routers have more things and stuff on them so the operating complications sky rocket. For myself I have a hard time walking and chewing gum at the same time so I stick with a fixed base router.

AM I TO UNDERSTAND THAT YOU STILL USE A HORSE AND BUGGY BECAUSE A CAR IS TOO COMPLEX TO LEARN?

I propose starting it with :
Material : Prickly wood ( if you don’t gently stick people they don’t move )
Features : Cup Holder ( sorry us Canadians can’t go without our Timmy’s – Reg or DD )
Ejection Seat: Sometimes you’ll have to cut and run quick.

Comfortable chair : we all need you around lots so keep you comfy.

I DON'T NEED TO PROD PEOPLE RICHARD, I LEAD BY EXAMPLE!
A CUP HOLDER WOULD DEFEAT THE DUAL PURPOSE OF MY RED COFFEE MUG THAT IS OFTEN SEEN IN MY THREADS, APART FROM HOLDING COFFEE IT IS OFTEN USED TO DRAW RADII, SAVES ME GETTING OUT A COMPASS.
MY WIFE WOULD, I'M SURE WELCOME AN EJECTOR SEAT THAT SHE COULD OPERATE AT MEAL TIMES, IT WOULD SAVE HER THROAT FROM HAVING TO YELL SEVERAL TIMES FOR ME TO COME INTO THE HOUSE!


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## OutoftheWoodwork (Oct 4, 2012)

Marcel M said:


> Harry, you are talking about evolution not revolution.


No, Marcel - he likes to stir up stuff, and get everyone riled up.

With that, I'm stayin out of this discussion, cuz I've got his number, and plan on ignoring his ramblings.. now when he says something truly educational (how to cut or fix, or do/create something), not an OPINION that's biased, I-know-everything, condenscending, or pushy, and can show some respect for others opinions then I'll listen.


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

harrysin said:


> Sure thay do Marcel, but here in Australia and New Zealand, the leading countries in routing technology!
> 
> Makita - Accessories - Templet Guide


Thanks Harry, I ordered one from Norwest Tool Centre. You also lead the world in that your continent is the driest on earth.


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

OutoftheWoodwork said:


> No, Marcel - he likes to stir up stuff, and get everyone riled up.
> 
> With that, I'm stayin out of this discussion, cuz I've got his number, and plan on ignoring his ramblings.. now when he says something truly educational (how to cut or fix, or do/create something), not an OPINION that's biased, I-know-everything, condenscending, or pushy, and can show some respect for others opinions then I'll listen.


I must say that I enjoy the banter. He has strong opinions with a peppering of good advice so i'll continue to entertain his posts. :sold:


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

harrysin said:


> .....MY WIFE WOULD, I'M SURE WELCOME AN EJECTOR SEAT THAT SHE COULD OPERATE AT MEAL TIMES, IT WOULD SAVE HER THROAT FROM HAVING TO YELL SEVERAL TIMES FOR ME TO COME INTO THE HOUSE!


Perhaps you should progress out of the horse and buggy days yourself and install an intercom system from your house to your shop. :yes2:


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Marcel M said:


> Perhaps you should progress out of the horse and buggy days yourself and install an intercom system from your house to your shop. :yes2:


Hi Marcel

It could be sais that he is very up to date with an environmentally-sustainable, eco-friendly communications system, there!

Regards

Phil


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

Phil P said:


> Hi Marcel
> 
> It could be sais that he is very up to date with an environmentally-sustainable, eco-friendly communications system, there!
> 
> ...


Not eco-friendly at all. Too much noise pollution. :haha:


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

No way Marcel; Marlene has a wonderful lilting voice when she calls Harry.


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

Mike said:


> No way Marcel; Marlene has a wonderful lilting voice when she calls Harry.


I was referring to his reply. :yes4:


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Marcel M said:


> I was referring to his reply. :yes4:


:sarcastic:


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## reuelt (Dec 29, 2008)

harrysin said:


> You're now being more specific in the specs Reuel. I've given some thought into this and I can't think of any of my numerous projects where a 12mm x 50mm bit was essential. Could you describe what you need it for.


I first want to use my router to mill critical parts for a homebuilt CNC router out of hardwood. Of course I also want to furniture & even an organ console for my Virtual Theatre Pipe organ + the multichannel speaker boxes.

Why CNC? Once I have the first CNC, I can then replace those critcal parts with Aluminium using the CNC to improve itself and make acurate metal templates for manual routing using template guides.

I won't/don't turn/rout wooden bowls or vases & plates with my wooden lathe/router because my wife had got certified in pottery (as hobby) and she has an automatic electric and a manual gas kiln in the house. Ceramics items made with clay & glaze can contain wet or dry food and get on the stove or into the oven. Wooden bowls are less functional.

50mm will allow me to cut 2" thick or 2x 3/4" thick in one go saving setup/clamping time.

Why 12mm & not 13mm?
One of the disadvantage of going metric is that materials have become thinner. Manufactured boards are now 12mm or 18mm think rather than 1/2" and 3/4". So I can no longer use 1/2" or 3/4" bits to make dados for housing joints anymore. I special ordered an 18mm bit years ago.

Better for USA & Canada NEVER to go metric - because "in the metric system consumers will have to pay more for less always."


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## reuelt (Dec 29, 2008)

harrysin said:


> It sounds like you are referring to the RADIUS that can be produced in which case it is of course the diameter of the BIT that determines this, not the size of the template guide.


True only if guide can get into space & angle is obtuse. 40mm guide is a hindrance in a lot of situations. That is where Template Tom would not admit his mistake.

Ever wondered why the American designed inlay kit supplied 1/8" solid carbide bit a very small guide bush + a small collar?


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

OutoftheWoodwork said:


> No, Marcel - he likes to stir up stuff, and get everyone riled up.
> 
> With that, I'm stayin out of this discussion, cuz I've got his number, and plan on ignoring his ramblings.. now when he says something truly educational (how to cut or fix, or do/create something), not an OPINION that's biased, I-know-everything, condenscending, or pushy, and can show some respect for others opinions then I'll listen.


 But Barb, you do me a grave injustice, haven't you seen the huge number of projects that I've posted over the years all with detailed photo-shoots with superimposed explanatory text plus a few slide shows and we mustn't forget the series of "routing for beginners" tutorials. Sure, when I sense that the forum is becoming rather boring I introduce items which are likely to produce some lively discussion, but I'm still serious about the subject matter. I've never professed to be knowledgeable about any aspect of woodworking other than routing, and like most members, I'm constantly learning new things here.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Marcel M said:


> Thanks Harry, I ordered one from Norwest Tool Centre. You also lead the world in that your continent is the driest on earth.


That's for sure Marcel, but having said that, whilst when I left home at 7.30 this morning it was warm and very sunny, however all afternoon it's been raining.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Marcel M said:


> Perhaps you should progress out of the horse and buggy days yourself and install an intercom system from your house to your shop. :yes2:


At our last home that is what I had and it was great for ordering tea or coffee for my visitors and myself however, when we bought this place my sweetheart put her foot down and said NO INTERCOM! so I gave the three way system to a friend.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Marcel M said:


> I was referring to his reply. :yes4:


What reply Marcel, I pretend not to hear if I'm in the process of something critical like a glueup


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

reuelt said:


> True only if guide can get into space & angle is obtuse. 40mm guide is a hindrance in a lot of situations. That is where Template Tom would not admit his mistake.
> 
> Ever wondered why the American designed inlay kit supplied 1/8" solid carbide bit a very small guide bush + a small collar?


I must admit that I learned the finer points of routing on a one on one basis over a number of years from Tom who was I thought a close friend and lived close to me.
When designing a template, the first thing that we consider is the size of template guide and bit that is to be used, so if we use a 40mm guide with a 3mm bit we calculate as follows: 40 - 3 = 37mm therefore the offset will be 18.5mm and the opening in the template will be: the size of the routed item plus 37mm and the routed radius will be 3mm. Of course there will be shapes that would make the template far too big, in which case the design will be based on a smaller guide.
The only time that a 12mm bit is essential is when routing an accurate 12mm groove, but a 50mm deep groove is not something that I've ever needed. When it comes to deep routing say the inside and outside of a box, then it doesn't of course matter what size bit is used so long as the template is designed for it.
I did not agree with some of Tom's ideas and that contributed to going our seperate ways but there can be no denying that he has an incredible knowledge of routing but lacks the ability to pass this on with the written word or his posted projects or Utube videos which are never complete to enable the reader/viewer to give it a go.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

ping


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

harrysin said:


> What reply Marcel, I pretend not to hear if I'm in the process of something critical like a glueup


She must be a saint


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

harrysin said:


> At our last home that is what I had and it was great for ordering tea or coffee for my visitors and myself however, when we bought this place my sweetheart put her foot down and said NO INTERCOM! so I gave the three way system to a friend.


Sounds like abuse of privilege.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Marcel M said:


> She must be a saint


 She is Marcel and I've mentioned that on many occasions here on the forum, quite a few members have spoken to her on Skype and a couple have even been here and know first hand how wonderful she is and has been for all of the 58 years that it's been my pleasure to be her husband.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Marcel M said:


> Sounds like abuse of privilege.


In retrospect it was Marcel and I now feel guilty as hell but I'm sure that I've made up for it since. Because it's a marriage of mixed religions, they all said it wouldn't last, but oh boy, how wrong they were and it didn't take long for everyone to realize what a good match it was and treat her better than ME!


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## JanP (Nov 1, 2012)

*The time has arrived for a revolution in america*

What a very, very appropriate title Harry. 

Am I the only one to be struck by the irony, that the first British colony to throw off the, 'Imperial', system of government, is now just about the last one to cling onto the, 'Imperial', system of measurements?


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## gwizz (Mar 3, 2012)

*Revolutionary*



JanP said:


> *The time has arrived for a revolution in america*
> 
> What a very, very appropriate title Harry.
> 
> Am I the only one to be struck by the irony, that the first British colony to throw off the, 'Imperial', system of government, is now just about the last one to cling onto the, 'Imperial', system of measurements?


At least they drive on the Right side of the road not the Wrong side of the road ! :sarcastic: :sarcastic:


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## JanP (Nov 1, 2012)

gwizz said:


> At least they drive on the Right side of the road not the Wrong side of the road ! :sarcastic: :sarcastic:


Vive la difference Michael! :yes4:


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## JanP (Nov 1, 2012)

Or Richard...(obviously past my bedtime).


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

harrysin said:


> In retrospect it was Marcel and I now feel guilty as hell but I'm sure that I've made up for it since. Because it's a marriage of mixed religions, they all said it wouldn't last, but oh boy, how wrong they were and it didn't take long for everyone to realize what a good match it was and treat her better than ME!


Well, if you feel guilty than do something nice for her and then tell her why.


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

gwizz said:


> At least they drive on the Right side of the road not the Wrong side of the road ! :sarcastic: :sarcastic:


Hi Richard

It's about sides, The right side to us is the wrong side..... If you get my meaning :sarcastic:

Regards

Phil


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Well guys, let us return to the original subject matter, fixed base routers against the far Superior plunge router. A very knowledgeable forum member yesterday sent me a copy of an article titled "Master the Plunge Router" by one GREGORY PAOLINI" in the Nov./Dec. issue of Fine Woodworking. The opening paragraph reads as follows:
"Because they are versatile,easy to use, and affordable, routers are extremely popular tools. And while a router with a fixed base is great, one with a plunge base is even better. Plunge routers can do everything that a fixed base type does,plus they can plunge into and out of cuts, so you can also tackle mortice's and stopped dadoes. They're better for template routing too." End of quote. Now I don't know this gentleman from a bar of soap so I did a google search and found this: Gregory Paolini - Fine Woodworking Profile
I'm sure that you will have to agree that this AMERICAN man is a VERY experienced craftsman, yet he is saying what I have been saying on this forum for years. Perhaps now American manufacturers will bring America into the 21st century where routers are concerned. I rest my case.


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

I agree that plunge routers are better than fixed base routers but I do not want another restriction placed in my life by a *government* regulation. I will decide what's best for me.


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Harry, stop beating the dead horse. Bob and Rick praised the virtues of big plunge routers for many years. Things have changed in the last 20 years. One prime example is the depth of plunge. The Bosch MR23 plunge base has a full 3"(75 mm) plunge. The fixed base is designed to be used in the table and it has an excellent height adjuster. One motor with two bases = lower cost. You have spent a great deal of time praising plunge routers and have yet to try one of these combo kits. People who have used them prefer them. It's just that simple. Let it go. Don't make me call you Tom!


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## Chris Curl (Feb 13, 2012)

Marcel M said:


> I agree that plunge routers are better than fixed base routers but I do not want another restriction placed in my life by a *government* regulation. I will decide what's best for me.


My thoughts exactly, Marcel. I also agree that plunge routers have a valuable place in the shop, and can do things that fixed base rouers cannot. But we have a choice of routers, and we should have the freedom to choose what works best for us. Government's purpose is to protect our freedoms, not limit them unnecessarily.


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## Harrison67 (May 30, 2012)

If I need a very sturdy plunge machine, I mount the wood in my milling machine!

Problem solved.:thank_you2:


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

Did you notice what brand he was playing with, Harry.......LOL

No wonder you approved of the article......

Must read and digest...


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

jw2170 said:


> Did you notice what brand he was playing with, Harry.......LOL
> 
> No wonder you approved of the article......
> 
> Must read and digest...


Hey James, there were also mentions for Bosch AND deWalt (my hobby-horse :thank_you2

Regards

Phil


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Mike said:


> Harry, stop beating the dead horse. Bob and Rick praised the virtues of big plunge routers for many years. Things have changed in the last 20 years. One prime example is the depth of plunge. The Bosch MR23 plunge base has a full 3"(75 mm) plunge. The fixed base is designed to be used in the table and it has an excellent height adjuster. One motor with two bases = lower cost. You have spent a great deal of time praising plunge routers and have yet to try one of these combo kits. People who have used them prefer them. It's just that simple. Let it go. Don't make me call you Tom!


People who bought a model T ford preferred it to a penny farthing Mike. 
Perhaps this is where I should post this link to another AMERICAN professional woodworker.
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B13jQxW5N_l9cUc5WkpybTR3TTA
By the way Mike it's far from a dead horse, members really are getting the message and will one day thank the likes of me for drawing their attention to the many benefits of PLUNGE routers.
If anything Mike it's people like yourself who are attempting to flog a dead horse, be patient my friend, you are young enough to see the change to PLUNGE routers.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Marcel M said:


> I agree that plunge routers are better than fixed base routers but I do not want another restriction placed in my life by a *government* regulation. I will decide what's best for me.


Marcel, that part of my post really was tongue in cheek, intended to keep up the interest in the thread.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Chris Curl said:


> My thoughts exactly, Marcel. I also agree that plunge routers have a valuable place in the shop, and can do things that fixed base rouers cannot. But we have a choice of routers, and we should have the freedom to choose what works best for us. Government's purpose is to protect our freedoms, not limit them unnecessarily.


 Chris, please read my reply to Marcel.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Harrison67 said:


> If I need a very sturdy plunge machine, I mount the wood in my milling machine!
> 
> Problem solved.:thank_you2:


Does it really rotate fast enough for clean cuts in wood Harrison, mine doesn't.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

jw2170 said:


> Did you notice what brand he was playing with, Harry.......LOL
> 
> No wonder you approved of the article......
> 
> Must read and digest...


You betcha I did but whilst I'm on record as being a great Makita fan, I've never suggested that there aren't other good brands of PLUNGE routers out there, many of which were in the reviews. The chances are that if my job was building patios from lumber, I would actually prefer a D handle router for putting a bevel on the corners of all the rough sawn lumber where once the bit is set it would never need adjustment until it was ready for replacement.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Gentlemen and of course ladies, it's been brought to my attention that members are upset that this thread is still active and that I should end it. Please advise me if this is what you want.


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## breezy (Nov 4, 2011)

harrysin said:


> Gentlemen and of course ladies, it's been brought to my attention that members are upset that this thread is still active and that I should end it. Please advise me if this is what you want.


Harry,

I enjoy reading all the threads that you start, as long as you are getting replies, keep the threads running. :sold:


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## boogalee (Nov 24, 2010)

harrysin said:


> Gentlemen and of course ladies, it's been brought to my attention that members are upset that this thread is still active and that I should end it. Please advise me if this is what you want.


1+ for keep it going. If I should become upset with this thread then I just won"t read it any more.

Al


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## BRAVOGOLFTANGO (Oct 11, 2012)

Of course it's what we want, it never should have been allowed to go as long as it did, could have been an interesting topic of router style preferences without the feeble minded country bashing. Bust as I said before, while it was a silly thread, it was an interesting read and could have been pretty cool if it had been done in a collaborative way whereby members would want to sincerely reply. 

Learn from your mistake and carry on solider.


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Mike said:


> Things have changed in the last 20 years. One prime example is the depth of plunge. The Bosch MR23 plunge base has a full 3"(75 mm) plunge.
> 
> You have spent a great deal of time praising plunge routers and have yet to try one of these combo kits. People who have used them prefer them. It's just that simple.


Hi Mike

The only thing I can say to that is, no, it isn't. A typical 1/2in full-size plunge router these days has an input rating of 2000 to 2200 watts (I'll use watts because they are much more accurate than American sales power ratings). That encompasses routers from Festool, Makita, Hitachi, deWalt, Bosch, Ryobi and Triton amongst others. The maximum power input on combo kits is around 1600 watts, often much less. Where this becomes significant is in the very jobs at which plungers excel, such as deep mortising, deep template work, etc. It also gives enough power to work with materials like Corian, Gibralter, etc which lower power routers struggle with - believe me even a difference of 400 watts makes a considerable differemce in useability. Finally the extra power makes heavy single pass work, like heavy edge rebating (edge dados?), staircase housings, etc feasible with all that brings in terms of speed and accuracy. You can achieve most (but not all) of this with a combo kit, but not as quickly. That makes a trim carpenter or shop fitter or production worker who's in the know favour the true heavy plunger. The same person is less likely to need a massive 3in hole in the bottom because cutters like that are used for panel raising, a job better done on a spindle moulder (shaper). When you do need to do that sort of work on a router table the need to pull the cutter into the base of the router really isn't that great if you install a collet extender on the router and mount the router to table using a sub-base. But even there the extra power of the heavy plunge brings benefits in the ability to raise a panel in 1- or 2- passes less than the smaller router could do it in

Years back (2001) even the Journal of Light Construction was singing the praises of plunge routers. So I think that Harry is right to point out that different can be better

Or different strokes for different folks?

Regards

Phil


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

harrysin said:


> Gentlemen and of course ladies, it's been brought to my attention that members are upset that this thread is still active and that I should end it. Please advise me if this is what you want.



Harry, I believe that this is still an open public forum, last time I checked?:yes4:

People do not have to respond if they are so inclined. I see nothing abusive , harassing or intimidating in your posts.

The tread is only still active, as members continue to post. If ALL members were dissatisfied the thread would die a natural death.

It takes two to continue a discussion.........:haha:


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## Harrison67 (May 30, 2012)

harrysin said:


> Gentlemen and of course ladies, it's been brought to my attention that members are upset that this thread is still active and that I should end it. Please advise me if this is what you want.



Keep up the good work, Harry. I will always defend the right of Free Speech. Nothing bad in this thread, or any other.:yes2:


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## reuelt (Dec 29, 2008)

harrysin said:


> I must admit that I learned the finer points of routing on a one on one basis over a number of years from Tom who was I thought a close friend and lived close to me.
> When designing a template, the first thing that we consider is the size of template guide and bit that is to be used, so if we use a 40mm guide with a 3mm bit we calculate as follows: 40 - 3 = 37mm therefore the offset will be 18.5mm and the opening in the template will be: the size of the routed item plus 37mm and the routed radius will be 3mm. Of course there will be shapes that would make the template far too big, in which case the design will be based on a smaller guide.
> The only time that a 12mm bit is essential is when routing an accurate 12mm groove, but a 50mm deep groove is not something that I've ever needed. When it comes to deep routing say the inside and outside of a box, then it doesn't of course matter what size bit is used so long as the template is designed for it.
> I did not agree with some of Tom's ideas and that contributed to going our seperate ways but there can be no denying that he has an incredible knowledge of routing but lacks the ability to pass this on with the written word or his posted projects or Utube videos which are never complete to enable the reader/viewer to give it a go.


Harry,
I first started looking for 12mm with 50mm cutting edge because I liked the POSTFORM Kitchentop router jig from EU. The original design required 30mm template guide + 12mm router bit with 50mm cutting edge. Postform kitchentops material are at least 40mm thick so bit with 50mm cutting edge is a must.
Recently, many POSTFORM Kitchentop templates are made for 30mm template guides + 1/2" (12.7mm) bit with 50mm cutting edge instead.


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

reuelt said:


> I first started looking for 12mm with 50mm cutting edge because I liked the POSTFORM Kitchentop router jig from EU. The original design required 30mm template guide + 12mm router bit with 50mm cutting edge. Postform kitchentops material are at least 40mm thick so bit with 50mm cutting edge is a must.
> Recently, many POSTFORM Kitchentop templates are made for 30mm template guides + 1/2" (12.7mm) bit with 50mm cutting edge instead.


Hi Reuel

From somebody in the EU; jigs in the UK have long required a 30mm guide bush and use a _1/2in (12.7mm) cutter_ - European mainland jigs seem to require the 30mm guide bush, but a 12mm cutter (except Festool jigs). Here we generally see only the UK market (1/2in cutter) jigs. Neither combination is problematic for us as regards tooling. Take a look at this listing from Wealden Tool - product TX1412.7M Ø12 .7 (1/2in) x 52mm long is TX1412M is Ø12 x 52mm long, both on 1/2in shanks. Other manufacturers offer similar cutters, although I personally prefer the KWO Versofix removeable-tip (single flute) cutters like the K69420 for worktop mason's mitre joints. Whilst that listing doesn't show it, KWO also sell a Ø12 x 50mm long Versofix and they accommodate 12mm (metric) shanks in addition to the 1/2in British/American "standard". Because of this _de facto_ standard here in Europe new 1/2in routers are pretty much all delivered with a 30mm guide bush in the box

These 50mm cutters are all very well, but more recently we've also had to contend wuth "super thick" honetcombed worktops at 60mm. At present the only people doing cutters for them appear to be Trend and Titman

I don't know if KWO (H Schumacher & Sohn) has an outlet in Australia, but they now have a very good distributor in the UK who's web site is here. Maybe they could tell you about Australian distribution, if any, should you be interested

Regards

Phil


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## reuelt (Dec 29, 2008)

Mike said:


> Reuel, for close radii a smaller guide bushing is used. Most work can be done with the larger guide bushings which make it easy to see what you are cutting and to evacuate the chips.


Australian and probably US model of say Hitachi/Makita routers comes with 5/8" guide as STD. Those shipped to EU has a 30mm guide as STD.

Projects should promote use of either 5/8" or 30mm guides since members would already have either of them.
That is my point.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

BRAVOGOLFTANGO said:


> Of course it's what we want, it never should have been allowed to go as long as it did, could have been an interesting topic of router style preferences without the feeble minded country bashing. Bust as I said before, while it was a silly thread, it was an interesting read and could have been pretty cool if it had been done in a collaborative way whereby members would want to sincerely reply.
> 
> Learn from your mistake and carry on solider.


Sorry, but I'm not inclined to reply to such a post from an anonymous member.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

reuelt said:


> Harry,
> I first started looking for 12mm with 50mm cutting edge because I liked the POSTFORM Kitchentop router jig from EU. The original design required 30mm template guide + 12mm router bit with 50mm cutting edge. Postform kitchentops material are at least 40mm thick so bit with 50mm cutting edge is a must.
> Recently, many POSTFORM Kitchentop templates are made for 30mm template guides + 1/2" (12.7mm) bit with 50mm cutting edge instead.


I now understand why you require such a bit. Because I make my own templates and mix and match metric and Imperial guides and bits I don't have you're problem .Reuelt.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

reuelt said:


> Australian and probably US model of say Hitachi/Makita routers comes with 5/8" guide as STD. Those shipped to EU has a 30mm guide as STD.
> 
> Projects should promote use of either 5/8" or 30mm guides since members would already have either of them.
> That is my point.


Reuelt, the guide supplied with a router is only intended as a starter, rather like the chisel set supplied with my little wood lathe, they were fine to enable me to proceed straight away, but as soon as I found satisfaction in turning I proceeded to purchase more suitable tools.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Thank you James, Harrison and everyone else who have expressed an opinion on this thread.
Let me once more reiterate the reasons for my threads and posts. My aim is and always has been to introduce new-comers to the wonderful exciting world of routing, demonstrating with step by step anotated photographs how I use the PLUNGE router, doing things that simply cannot be accomplished with a FIXED base router. There really isn't anything exciting about running a piece of wood accross a router table, but using the PLUNGE router hand held using home made templates, now that IS exciting and using the PLUNGE router mounted on skis, well, I remember describing the first time that I used the ski router as a similar feeling to having sex! (of course I was going by memory at the time)
I have never had expectations of converting members who have been using routers in their daily work, such people are usually fixed in their ways and happy to carry on as before and there is nothing wrong in that.


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## Marcel M (Jun 14, 2012)

harrysin said:


> Marcel, that part of my post really was tongue in cheek, intended to keep up the interest in the thread.


Understood :sold:


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## reuelt (Dec 29, 2008)

Phil P said:


> Hi Reuel
> 
> From somebody in the EU; jigs in the UK have long required a 30mm guide bush and use a _1/2in (12.7mm) cutter_ - European mainland jigs seem to require the 30mm guide bush, but a 12mm cutter (except Festool jigs). Here we generally see only the UK market (1/2in cutter) jigs. Neither combination is problematic for us as regards tooling. Take a look at this listing from Wealden Tool - product TX1412.7M Ø12 .7 (1/2in) x 52mm long is TX1412M is Ø12 x 52mm long, both on 1/2in shanks. Other manufacturers offer similar cutters, although I personally prefer the KWO Versofix removeable-tip (single flute) cutters like the K69420 for worktop mason's mitre joints. Whilst that listing doesn't show it, KWO also sell a Ø12 x 50mm long Versofix and they accommodate 12mm (metric) shanks in addition to the 1/2in British/American "standard". Because of this _de facto_ standard here in Europe new 1/2in routers are pretty much all delivered with a 30mm guide bush in the box
> 
> ...


The only POSTFORM COOKTOP jig available ex-stock in Melbourne is CMT's. It still requires 12mm bit with 50mm cutting edge + 30mm guide bush. It's funny, CMT's bit catalogue here does not have any 12mm bit with 50mm cutting edge.

I suspect it is harder to make a 12mm bit on a 1/2" shank than a 13mm bit on a 1/2" shank. For 13mm, bit maker just diamond grind the two TCT of a 1/2 bit 0.15mm less & that is finished. To make a 12mm a lot more work is needed and they are reluctant to do it if there is not much demand.

If Australia is 100% metric and I have a 12mm collet, I am sure a 12mm bit will be easier to get.


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## reuelt (Dec 29, 2008)

harrysin said:


> Reuelt, the guide supplied with a router is only intended as a starter, rather like the chisel set supplied with my little wood lathe, they were fine to enable me to proceed straight away, but as soon as I found satisfaction in turning I proceeded to purchase more suitable tools.


Why not just first teach them to make 2 or more collars for their existing template guide.
If Ameicans just make a 3/4" collar & a 1" collar for say their 5/8" template guide, they already can do wonders.

Or they can get something like:-
http://www.carbatec.com.au/brass-router-bushing-set_c10001
Such set includes 8 bushes to suit router bases with a 1-3/16 (30mm) hole. Outside diameters include: 5/16", 3/8", 7/16", 1/2", 39/64", 13/16", 1" and 1-3/8". Locking nut included.

1-3/8" (about 35mm) is even bigger than the Standard Porter Cable 1-3/16 hole used to mount it.


THERE IS NO NEED FOR ANY REVOLUTION. I fear the guillotine 

See attached example:-
1" OD MDF collar for 3/4" guide bush.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

reuelt said:


> Why not just first teach them to make 2 or more collars for their existing template guide.
> If Ameicans just make a 3/4" collar & a 1" collar for say their 5/8" template guide, they already can do wonders.
> 
> Or they can get something like:-
> ...


Adding a sleeve is quite common where one has the facilities. However, there is no point for instance in fitting a 40mm sleeve to a 12MM guide because the main advantage of a guide with a LARGE INTERNAL diameter, the ability for the collet to pass through the guide for greater depth of cut is not there.
In these shots you will see a few guides that I have added sleeves to. Whilst, as you can see, I do have an Imperial set of Brass three piece template guides which I only use when a really odd size is needed. I've mentioned many times that these guides are POTENTIALLY dangerous because, if the depth of cut isn't set so that the collet can't reach the guide, and it's easy to forget this, then the rotating collet can touch and unscrew the guide which can then fly across the shop, I know, it's happened twice to me and to other members. There really isn't a substitute for one piece template guides.


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

reuelt said:


> If Americans just make a 3/4" collar & a 1" collar for say their 5/8" template guide, they already can do wonders.


Of course, Reuel, 5/8in is 15.9mm, or 0.1mm smaller than another European standard, 16mm, which is the second common size used by some jig makers, but more especially by Trend. In woodworking what's in 0.1mm?

BTW Don't assume that oz going metric means that you will get 12mm collets - the UK is (in theory) metric but router cutters come in 1/4in, 1/2in and some 8mmm shank formats

Regards

Phil


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Reuelt, PC style guide bushings are available up to 1-1/2" diameter. Another option is to use the larger Oak Park/Lee Valley style which mounts in a 1-1/2" through hole and has a 1-3/4" rebate. Here is a sneak peek at the brass two piece guide bushing metric prototypes in both PC and OP/LV styles.


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## ranbla (Jun 1, 2021)

harrysin said:


> I'm probably right in thinking that routers were invented in America, and like so many countries that have been first to embrace new technology, America is no different in ending up with outdated routers...


Routers, like many other tools, are designed for a specific type of usage. Look in any professional woodworking shop and you'll find multiple, different routers; not because all but one suck, but because they all have different things they excel at more than others so you use the one that best fits your purpose. I'm about a year into my woodworking journey and I already have 3 routers and I use them all.


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## difalkner (Jan 3, 2012)

This thread is 9 years old, fwiw.


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## ranbla (Jun 1, 2021)

difalkner said:


> This thread is 9 years old, fwiw.


Is that a problem? I'm new to this forum, so I just jumped in. Sorry if it bothers someone.


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## difalkner (Jan 3, 2012)

ranbla said:


> Is that a problem? I'm new to this forum, so I just jumped in. Sorry if it bothers someone.


Not a problem at all, just pointing out that's it's old. It's often better to begin a new thread rather than revive one this old because many of the members are no longer here and sometimes the equipment has changed, been discontinued, updated, etc.


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

ranbla said:


> Is that a problem? I'm new to this forum, so I just jumped in. Sorry if it bothers someone.


Certainly not a problem, does not bother anyone.

David was only advising you that you may not get many responses.

Sometimes, we re-discover some great ideas when old posts are bumped to the top


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Just a reminder why I design templates for use with a 40mm template guide, It is because of the extra depth of cut afforded by the chuck being able to pass through the guide, also it allows one to SEE what the bit is doing.


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

Harry, you know my views. Your 40 mm guide bushing is a big improvement over the PC guide bushings, but as I have said before, at least 50 mm if not 60 mm guide bushings are what I want to have.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Gee Tom it's good to see your name again, it's also your lucky day, I just happen to have a 50mm template guide that I made years ago and because I've lost your address will you please email it to me and I will send it to you as a birthday present.


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