# Kickback injury on a SawStop table saw



## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

Here's a link to an injury sustained today (not me) by a member of another forum. We must all remember that even the best available technology won't always protect us from our mistakes.

(Warning: gory)

Kickback Hurts! (WARNING! GORY PICTURES!!)!!)


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## jschaben (Jun 21, 2009)

BigJimAK said:


> Here's a link to an injury sustained today (not me) by a member of another forum. We must all remember that even the best available technology won't always protect us from our mistakes.
> 
> (Warning: gory)
> 
> Kickback Hurts! (WARNING! GORY PICTURES!!)!!)


Wow! I'll bet that did smart. Down and over a bit and he may not have been around to post. Glad it wasn't worse.:fie:


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## papawd (Jan 5, 2011)

I know He won't forget how that felt for a while ,glad He is o.k.


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## Marco (Feb 21, 2009)

Thanks for the link, a safety reminder is always welcome. The next time that little voice says to me "Ugh don't you think this is a stupid way to try and cut this" I will have a picture to go along with it!


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## Dal300 (Jul 14, 2011)

I think I'll print the picture and put it up in the shop for when I get tired or in a hurry.


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

Yea.. I've started making it a habit of quitting work for the day if/when I catch myself doing something unsafe or messing something up where I should have been more careful. I figure it's a hint... <g>

He surely got bit!!


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## LinuxRandal (Mar 11, 2011)

Because of my job, I work odd hours. This has a tendency to make me work tired, which is why I went to a guided circular saw system over my tablesaw. It started out with me looking for a panel saw, and ended up as a different way of doing things.

This is a good reminder to think first, no matter the tool. If something doesn't look/feel right, it probably isn't.


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## sourdough (Jan 31, 2010)

Thank you for the post friend. A good reminder to all of us about the inherent dangers of a table saw. Early in my limited experience a narrow piece of 3/4" ply shot back across the room and into a wall of aluminum siding. Big assed dent in wall and all kinds of noise! Scared me right into returning to my old name.......Captain Cautious!!
Routing small pieces is danger zone number TWO.


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## CanuckGal (Nov 26, 2008)

Hard to look at, but much harder with when it happens to yourself. A good but unfortuante reminder about the dangers of power tools when used incorrectly. Kudos to the poster for explaining what he did wrong. We all need to think twice before doing something we KNOW is wrong. Trust your gut.


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## newwoodworker (Mar 27, 2009)

man that seriously has me thinking hard about trying to come up with some system of monitoring while in the workshop, As I am sure like many of us I work alone in the shop often times for 5-8+ hours when no one is home except myself and as he said alone in the out building just think if that had of knocked him out cold he/I/you could be laying there for hours upon hours before someone finally realized they had not seen us for quite some time.... maybe I need to work out some kind of buddy system with my friends and family....


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## Cookie Monster (Jun 30, 2011)

Nasty cut.
I have made the same mistake in years past prior to realizing I could move the fence to the left side of the blade on my right tilt Delta. Twenty five feet across the shop and the scrapt hit the wall with quite some force. Shop Safety is the number one thing that should be addressed every minute you are in the shop.


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## Knothead47 (Feb 10, 2010)

Glad it wasn't any worse. Hope you have a speedy recovery with no lasting scars. I appreciate the post and pictures- makes us think before we do something that isn't safe.
Saw Stop is a great concept but this shows that there are still safety issues, as with any power tool or hand tool. 
FWIW, I cut the end of my right thumb making a salad! Three stitches with one through the thumbnail cost $310. I think of what I could have bought for the shop with the money. The wife does all the cutting now.


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

So SawStop doesn't supply all the answers, then? It's hardly surprising. A piece 3 x 3 x 2in is too small to be cut safely on most table saws - the appropriate piece of kit was either a mitre (chop) saw (and even then you're getting near to the mark) or a hand saw. Or perhaps he should have done what a lot of trade shops do - toss it in the firewood pile. 

The poster says "_I had to make the second cut on the left side of the blade. Obviously this is idiotic and I knew it. You never want to cut with the blade tilted toward the fence"_. This is precisely how the worlds most expensive industrial panel saws by Martin, Altendorf and Panhans work, but they benefit from two pieces of design - a dual height high/low rip fence and a the facility to withdraw the rip fence end to the start of the blade (this is the so-called Euro short rip fence). That means the fence can be withdrawn behind the blade and used as a length stop whilst the slider (equivalent in many ways to the mitre fence) can be used to push the work through. The accident shows the inherent design flaw in the "through" rip fences such as the Bisemeyer design - and is why they are effectively _banned_ on commercial saws sold here. If Saw Stop seriously expect to be taken seriously it's high time that they looked at what European manufacturerd have been doing _since the 1970s_ by way of safety in fence design

Sorry if I seem het up about this, but the solutions we have over here are long proven, not hideously expensive to impliment and they work. I just wish SawStop would realise they they don't have the complete solution


Regards

Phil


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## LinuxRandal (Mar 11, 2011)

Phil P said:


> So SawStop doesn't supply all the answers, then? It's hardly surprising. A piece 3 x 3 x 2in is too small to be cut safely on most table saws - the appropriate piece of kit was either a mitre (chop) saw (and even then you're getting near to the mark) or a hand saw. Or perhaps he should have done what a lot of trade shops do - toss it in the firewood pile.
> 
> The poster says "_I had to make the second cut on the left side of the blade. Obviously this is idiotic and I knew it. You never want to cut with the blade tilted toward the fence"_. This is precisely how the worlds most expensive industrial panel saws by Martin, Altendorf and Panhans work, but they benefit from two pieces of design - a dual height high/low rip fence and a the facility to withdraw the rip fence end to the start of the blade (this is the so-called Euro short rip fence). That means the fence can be withdrawn behind the blade and used as a length stop whilst the slider (equivalent in many ways to the mitre fence) can be used to push the work through. The accident shows the inherent design flaw in the "through" rip fences such as the Bisemeyer design - and is why they are effectively _banned_ on commercial saws sold here. If Saw Stop seriously expect to be taken seriously it's high time that they looked at what European manufacturerd have been doing _since the 1970s_ by way of safety in fence design
> 
> ...


Fences here are personal choice. However SAFETY is a RESPONSIBILITY. Short fences have been around for a LONG time (OWWM site had some saws from the 20's with them)

That said, I know a couple of people that prefer the Delta Unifence, because they can bring it to before the half way point and use it as a short fence. Other people use what I see called a crown, which is a addition to a Bies/other fence and leaves the piece before the half way point on the blade.
I personally still wouldn't like how close my hands would be (too small a piece), so I use a short rail and the Smart clamping system, to hold the piece, while running my circular saw over it.

In the end, the tool isn't your mama. (no one can tell someone what to do if they made up their minds)


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

Phil P said:


> This is precisely how the worlds most expensive industrial panel saws by Martin, Altendorf and Panhans work, but they benefit from two pieces of design - a dual height high/low rip fence and a the facility to withdraw the rip fence end to the start of the blade (this is the so-called Euro short rip fence). That means the fence can be withdrawn behind the blade and used as a length stop whilst the slider (equivalent in many ways to the mitre fence) can be used to push the work through. The accident shows the inherent design flaw in the "through" rip fences such as the Bisemeyer design - and is why they are effectively _banned_ on commercial saws sold here. If Saw Stop seriously expect to be taken seriously it's high time that they looked at what European manufacturerd have been doing _since the 1970s_ by way of safety in fence design


Phil,

No piece of equipment is ideal for all operations but if you use your head, there are safe solutions. Take the unsafe miter/rip combo; I have a piece of 1" MDF about 3"x6" that I keep in my saw tool drawer, together with a 12" clamp. 

I clamp that to my Biese fence far enough back from the blade to use it as a stop block but to never have the wood touch the saw while it's held in on 2 sides.. 

With an adjusted scale on the fence and a 1" block, I rarely need a tape measure.


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

LinuxRandal said:


> Short fences have been around for a LONG time (OWWM site had some saws from the 20's with them)


They may well have been, Randall, but American manufacturers such as Delta, Powermatic and SawStop seem to have just ignoerd their potential. Maybe it's all down to being cheaper to defend a legal action than build in primary safety (to my mind the same sort of argument we had over air bags vs. seat belts in cars in the Nader era)



LinuxRandal said:


> In the end, the tool isn't your mama. (no one can tell someone what to do if they made up their minds)


True enough, but designers can incorporate basic safety features very cheaply - if there is the will to do so.

Many years ago I was taught that a table saw is primarily designed to rip stock and that a crosscut saw (radial arm, mitre saw, pull-saw, etc) was designed to do just that, curt across the grain. Having that constantly in mind makes it simpler to decide what is going to be a safer tool for the job., IMHO

Regards

Phil


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## CharleyL (Feb 28, 2009)

Had he placed the fence on the other side of the blade to make this cut he wouldn't have had the accident, at least not from pinching the wood between the blade and the fence. Cutting a piece that small would still be risky without a good way to hold it down, against the fence, and push it forward. A Grripper or similar device would have done this for him. 

So he made 3 mistakes: 1. He made the cut on the wrong side of the saw blade 2 He was cutting too small of a part without an adequate hold down/feed device 3 He was trusting his expensive Saw Stop table saw too much. The people who buy these saws think their Saw Stop will keep them from getting seriously hurt and this is not a complete truth. There are ways to get seriously injured by a table saw that does not involve finger/blade contact.

I have no connection to Micro Jig, the makers of the Grripper, but I sure do like their product. (I now own 3 of them)

Charley


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

ICS Safety Bypass Mode - YouTube

http://www.sawstop.com/documents/Contractor Saw Quick Start Guide (Aug 08).pdf

==


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## Dal300 (Jul 14, 2011)

Phil, 

I feel people are ultimately responsible for their own safety... not the manufacturer.


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## LinuxRandal (Mar 11, 2011)

bobj3 said:


> ICS Safety Bypass Mode - YouTube
> 
> http://www.sawstop.com/documents/Contractor Saw Quick Start Guide (Aug 08).pdf
> 
> ==


How does this come into play with kickback?


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Dal300 said:


> It seems to me that too many people want manufacturers to take responsibility for their products when it's the user who is actually the one who should be responsible.


Even if those goods are so badly designed to be almost certain of causing the user to have an accident or near miss?

In the UK safety legislation predates *1900* (the 1891 Factories Act, for example, stipulated the use of guarding "where appropriate") with the a number of Acts of Parliament coming into force between 1901 and 1929 which mandated amongst other things the _industrial_ use of riving knives and blade crown guards on saw benches, magnetic starter switches and enclosed gearing/drive belts/ undersides of saw tables, etc. These acts stemmed from a combination of pressure from the trades unions, who were concerned about unnecessary industrial injuries, and the Board of Trade who were required by parliament to investigate and find ways in which to reduce deaths and injuries. It should be noted that in many instances manufacturers designed and implimented many safety features well before legislation was ever introduced _as a service to their customers_. And what happens in the commercial world generally trickles down into hobby machines - eventually



Dal300 said:


> Sorry if this sounds harsh, but I really do believe that no matter what tool you use, it's YOUR responsibility to be as safe with it as you can. Not the manufacturers, not the governments and not the courts.


On that score would you be in favour of allowing unprotected flappy wide belt drives off overhead line shafting to drive unguarded machines (which would. of course, only ever be operated by unshod urchins), then? I agree, it IS your responsibility to take care, but it is also the responsibility of the manufacturer to supply tools which are "fit for purpose". US-designed saw benches have by dint of your peculiar legal system and accompanying dearth of basic safety legislation been allowed to fossilise in the late 1930s in design terms (at a time when sadly sales of US-manufactured woodworking has receded to almost nil; go into an industrial woodworking factory in the USA and see how much equipment is Italian or German to see where the _real_ advances in woodworking machinery design and safety have been made). Had the same level of development gone into machine design that has been expended on say saw materials technology (PCD diamond router blades and saw blades, TCT bandsaw blades, etc) then the USA would lead the world. It hasn't, and the USA doesn't

Supplying a rip fence which can safely handle bevel rips without the need to work "wrong side on" or left handed takes very little effort or extra cost. The same design allows the guard to be used when ripping minimum thickness stock and adjusts to accommodate even the most reactionary of timber when ripping - minimising pinches and trappings, the two major causes of kickback. Almost all saws sold here (UK) for nearly forty years have had them. Installing a decent riving knife and crown guard which don't need to be removed for every cut because they simply don't work is similarly a low-cost "fix" (see the Makita 2704 if you don't believe me). To my mind not having them on a table saw is a bit like taking your new Chevrolet and fitting drum brakes, 1950s shock absorbers (dampers) and skinny 1950s cross ply tyres (tires). Yes, the car is still a car, but it is a lot less safe, will have more accidents and get there a lot more slowly, if at all. All regardless of which idiot happens to be driving

Safety legislation isn't all about "nanny states", isn't universally bad and is _proven_ to reduce accidents and deaths. It's only when the health and safety culture goes so far as to make a simple task impossible to do that its validity should come into question. From many years of personal experience riving knives, safety guards, decent rip fences, etc are not in that category

Regards

Phil


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## Mark (Aug 4, 2004)

Let's keep it on subject, any posts of even a small hint of political context will be removed. If you want to discuss history or politics do it in the lobby.


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## Dal300 (Jul 14, 2011)

Thanks Mark, I forgot myself and will endeavor to remember.



Mark said:


> Let's keep it on subject, any posts of even a small hint of political context will be removed. If you want to discuss history or politics do it in the lobby.


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## robersonjr (Dec 5, 2009)

Ouch


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Randal

I think it comes under the header of RTM, almost all kickbacks are user errors, if you don't how to use the tool don't power it up, RTM, the SawStop has a great manual, like the one I posted..they also show how to turn it off in the youtube video..not the norm. for most mfg.of power tools..

======



LinuxRandal said:


> How does this come into play with kickback?


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## Tommyt654 (Apr 5, 2009)

Thats what happens when using the wrong tool to do a job. Had he placed this on a bandsaw insteads of tablesaw it would have never happened,We are not idiot proof but some folks really should not be woodworkers or allowed near powertools IMHO,


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## newwoodworker (Mar 27, 2009)

Problem is in a perfect world we all would have every single tool we need for every single task but in the real world we dont all have a unlimited checking account and thats the thing I notice the most about 90% of injurys I see happen on forums and in real life is when the average joe who loves the hobby but doesnt have $800 to buy one tool or even like in most cases the $200 to buy some specific addition to a tool which would allow 99.9% safe usage for a task has to make do with what they have and it works 9 out of 10 times but there is always that one time it doesnt and thats when people get hurt I will agree that 10% of the time if not more its just down to stupidity but the rest is due to not having the correct tool for the task.


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## Tommyt654 (Apr 5, 2009)

Agreed,But in this case if he could afford a SS he could easily afford a bandsaw.


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

bobj3 said:


> almost all kickbacks are user errors,


Sorry, Bob, but they emphatically are not. Most kickbacks result from the workpiece making contact with the rising teeth of the sawblade (i.e. those at the rear). The reasons for this are varied, but the two most common are firstly reaction timber where the saw kerf closes up to pinch the blade - in the absence of a riving knife or splitter - and secondly as the result of using a rip fence which runs down the side of the sawblade to the rear of the machine when cutting reaction timber which opens out away from the rear of the blade. Such timber can and will hit the fence and be forced back onto the blade towards the rear where the rising teeth will pick-up the timber and eject it back at you, or in some cases stall the saw. Using a short rip fence eradicates 99% of this behaviour. In both instances I'd say the laughably inadequate design of the so-called "standard" saw is to blame and not the user. Of course trying to use such a through rip fence as a depth stop is also pretty dumb for similar reasons - the tendency of the work to pinch or bind. A short rip fence of cross cut box is a far safer option

Ironically part of the solution, the short rip fence, can be built for pennies and the other part, the riving knife or splitter, often comes with the saw......... So why can't manufacturers at least advise people ofn safety measures.

Regards

Phil


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## CanuckGal (Nov 26, 2008)

No technology or "perfect" tool design will save someone who knowingly uses a tool improperly. The OP admitted this was what he did. I don't know of anyone who hasn't done something in a rush, done something without thinking, or done something KNOWING it was a bad idea and ended up with bruise, cut, missing digit or worse. There is no cure for being human. There is no tool that can overcome the human condition. It is *our own *responsibility to keep safety in our shops the number one priority. These aren't toys we are playing with. They are dangerous machines with no conscience.
I appreciate the OP sharing his story. It should remind us that when man/woman vs. machine, man/woman must play by the machine's rules or the outcome is not going to be pretty.


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

I'm with you, Deb... as one who designs control systems for hazardous areas (oil production and processing areas), we do our best to make things "idiot-proof" but on occasion people still break things or get hurt.

The problem is that "idiot proof" doesn't guarantee safety because the people who operate the equipment are very smart... they just sometimes do dumb things... things you look back on and ask yourself "They obviously found a way to bypass the safety measures we put in place... this should have obviously never been done.. what were they thinking??"


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