# Shaker cabinet Doors



## pusserboy (Mar 4, 2018)

The weather is getting warmer and the car will soon be parking outside and I get back my garage - workshop.
I want to make new cabinet doors for my kitchen and I would like your advice.
The style will be shaker.
What are the pro's and con's of making them out of MDF or Wood
Using MDF worries me because of wear to the bits and you get sharper edges.
I will be painting them. Also which would be the best paint for each MDF and wood 
Thanks for the advice in advance.
Stuart


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

I wouldn't use MDF for doors. Not very robust and very hard to make paint look good on it.

Consider using plywood, and glue a strip of matching wood on the edges so you can cut the shaker profile on it. This would be for a solid door. If you are making a paneled door, you are basically makng a solid wood frame, and using thin ply for the panels. 

The ply and solid wood edges will take almost any finish you want to apply. Stain, oil, wax paint, it won't be a problem. Just don't over sand the ply. 

Splurge and go for some Baltic Birch ply. You'll love it. 

Make certain you table saw blade is exactly 90 to the table or you'll have trouble gluing on the solid wood trim to the ply. Apply a pre coat of glue to the plywood edge, then glue again to help make the trim stick. Use lots of clamps and cauls to hold the trim firmly in place while the glue dries. 

Use a trim bit to make the trim the same thickness as the ply. Work face down so the front trim and ply edges align.


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## woodknots (Mar 7, 2012)

My friend and I have built many kitchen cabinet doors including banks of drawers fronts using MDF - never had a problem. We knock down the edges with a bit of sanding, which also helps the paint adhere better. When we spray them we put on two coats of primer with sanding after each coat and finish with a coat of latex sprayed on. Built a set of cabinets for my daughter's kitchen. Carcasses were made from melamine, doors and drawer fronts were MDF. Here's a couple of pictures, that don't really do the finished product justice but you'll get the idea.


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## tomp913 (Mar 7, 2014)

Here's a very informative video showing the process of making Shaker-style cabinet doors.






He states that MR (moisture resistant) MDF must/should be used. He seems to have a pretty well thought out process using loose tenons so measurements are pretty straight-forward. If you check his YouTube channel, he has another video on making doors, showing his old method and explaining why he doesn't make them that way any more. One drawback may be his use of 22 mm (7/8") thick material for the stiles and rails, but he explains his reason for using the thicker material - and I think it has something to do with the use of Euro hinges and the relative strength of the MDF when used with 3/4" material. FWIW, I have several sets of doors here made of 3/4" MDF, all over 25 years old and still going strong, but they're not doors that see a lot of opening and closing. He also has a video that shows his method of painting the MDF doors in detail. His channel has a lot of good information, well worth a couple of hours spent looking through the various videos.

If you're concerned about the MDF, or even problems finding the thicker material, make the rails and stiles from maple - or even poplar - and stick with the MDF panel if they're going to be painted.


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

Good video, Tom...besides his well-organized small shop, I especially like the fold-down track saw...who'da thunk...

...and I'm lookin' for a 3-car garage for my shop...might be time for a new strategy... LOL

Thanks for sharing...


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## Biagio (Mar 2, 2013)

If you are worried about the abrasive effect of MDF on tools, consider the Third World alternative: simply cut strips of thin MDF (I think you get 1/4 inch in N. America?) to the desired width of the rails and styles, and then cut the strips to rail and style length. Then glue on a faux frame to the front of the plain MDF door. Once painted, only a persnickety type that inspects the insides of cabinet doors, would know that it is not a genuine rail-and-style construction. Sand and fill the edges with a sealer, and the glue line disappears. 
Quick and dirty, but you have a full 3/4 inch door, with extra thickness where the euro hinges will be placed - no external dimpling of the hinge hole by the point of the Forstner bit.


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## sreilly (May 22, 2018)

Definitely like the style but that hinged track saw guide is brilliant as is his square fence cutting layout.


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## Danman1957 (Mar 14, 2009)

Stuart,

No problem using MDF. I have done it many times and it's fine. I am thinking of doing the same to my kitchen (currently all Pine with ugly doors that have 6 or 8 squares in each door and the old laminate counter top is also wood grain strips. I want to paint everything white and use a more up to date counter top), but having a hard time convincing my wife on the Shaker style. If not then I have a cabinet door router bit set from Freud that will get used.
Enjoy the project.

Dan


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## mgmine (Jan 16, 2012)

I would use the MDF for the door centers and something like poplar for the frames. I have used MDF for the complete doors but do not think that the small tenon left by the bit is strong enough. I like it for the centers because it is a full 1/4" thick. With MDF you get a much nicer surface to paint on than plywood.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

All of the cabinet doors you see that have a vinyl coating have an mdf core. The mdf gets sprayed with a heat activated adhesive and then goes into a heated vacuum press. I worked in a cabinet factory for a short while and it had a press to do that. The raised panel effect is done with a CNC router and a bit like this one : Ogee Panel CNC Cabinet Door Raised Panel Router Bit - 1/2" Shank | Faux Panel | Precisionbits.com You don't make a frame out of the mdf. That probably wouldn't be very strong. 

Making a frame out of wood and installing an mdf panel is possible but you would likely see a difference through the paint between the wood and the mdf just like you see plywood patches through paint. The wood will have some grain showing through and the mdf won't as well as the two possibly having a different sheen because of the different properties of the substrates. The most natural looking combination would be wooden frame and a plywood panel of the same species of wood.

Mdf comes in different grades. A lot of what is being sold now is the lite grade. There is a cabinet grade and it may also be more waterproof. The cabinet grade machines with better detail.


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## woodknots (Mar 7, 2012)

Correct Charles on the different grades. We order our material from a supplier in Oakville and they carry more than one grade of MDF as well as melamine. Always order the better grade.
We make the full door, frame and panel from MDF and have not had an issue with strength. The tenons are 3/8" long and we add glue to the middle of the groove for the panel - no shrinkage/expansion with MDF so gluing the panel in is not a problem.


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## tomp913 (Mar 7, 2014)

Biagio said:


> If you are worried about the abrasive effect of MDF on tools, consider the Third World alternative: simply cut strips of thin MDF (I think you get 1/4 inch in N. America?) to the desired width of the rails and styles, and then cut the strips to rail and style length. Then glue on a faux frame to the front of the plain MDF door. Once painted, only a persnickety type that inspects the insides of cabinet doors, would know that it is not a genuine rail-and-style construction. Sand and fill the edges with a sealer, and the glue line disappears.
> Quick and dirty, but you have a full 3/4 inch door, with extra thickness where the euro hinges will be placed - no external dimpling of the hinge hole by the point of the Forstner bit.


What a coincidence, I watched this video yesterday where he did exactly that.






The hinged track is a Festool feature, and comes with the MFT table.


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## TenGees (Sep 12, 2012)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> All of the cabinet doors you see that have a vinyl coating have an mdf core. The mdf gets sprayed with a heat activated adhesive and then goes into a heated vacuum press. I worked in a cabinet factory for a short while and it had a press to do that. The raised panel effect is done with a CNC router and a bit...


I have bathroom cabinets like that, Charles. The back and edges are just flat MDF. The front is machined to look like panels with a (vinyl?) white, woodgrain finish applied. The builder ordered them to size from a factory and built the cabinets himself, out of coated and edge-banded particle board. He had his own machine for drilling multiple shelf-pin holes and euro hinges.

One observation about these MDF doors is their weight. They seem quite heavy. They close harder with the same hinges. My kitchen cabinet doors have a flat panel, similar to shaker but have a small detail on the frames. They have a nicer feel to them and I think it's the weight. The panel seems to be about 3/16" (metric maybe?).


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

vchiarelli said:


> Correct Charles on the different grades. We order our material from a supplier in Oakville and they carry more than one grade of MDF as well as melamine. Always order the better grade.
> We make the full door, frame and panel from MDF and have not had an issue with strength. The tenons are 3/8" long and we add glue to the middle of the groove for the panel - no shrinkage/expansion with MDF so gluing the panel in is not a problem.


You're right Vince. If the panel was glued in to make it a solid unit then it should hold together. I just wouldn't have much faith in mdf holding up to racking forces over a long period of time without doing that.

We also had different grades of melamine coated particle board as you mentioned. Some of it was much denser than the other. The poorest grade wouldn't hold screws. Even the confirmat type didn't want to hold in them.


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## Rebelwork Woodworking (Sep 11, 2004)

Mdf is fine for panels just don't use it for stiles and rails...


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## woodknots (Mar 7, 2012)

Rebelwork Woodworking said:


> Mdf is fine for panels just don't use it for stiles and rails...


Why not? Been doing that for a while and never had any problems. Can you offer some justification to your comment? I'm not being argumentative, a statement like yours should have some sort of explanation, no?


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## tomp913 (Mar 7, 2014)

Nickp said:


> Good video, Tom...besides his well-organized small shop, I especially like the fold-down track saw...who'da thunk...
> 
> ...and I'm lookin' for a 3-car garage for my shop...might be time for a new strategy... LOL
> 
> Thanks for sharing...


Nick,

If you do a search on his YouTube channel, he has one video where he gives a shop tour, it's amazing what he's able to cram into that smallish space and still turn out the work he does. He does however get a lot of his larger parts cut to size by the"lumber yard" - apparently he gives them a cut list and they break down the sheets on their CNC equipment.


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## Rebelwork Woodworking (Sep 11, 2004)

Hinges don't take screws well. Stiles and rails don't do well under stress unless fully glued. Any breaks due to stress will create an open wound for moisture if in wet locations...

It doesn't matter to me if one uses it or not. To each can do as they please. After 30 years as a professional cabinet maker I have fixed and replaced it enough to not use it for hinged stiles...


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Rebelwork Woodworking said:


> Hinges don't take screws well. Stiles and rails don't do well under stress unless fully glued. Any breaks due to stress will create an open wound for moisture if in wet locations...
> 
> It doesn't matter to me if one uses it or not. To each can do as they please. After 30 years as a professional cabinet maker I have fixed and replaced it enough to not use it for hinged stiles...


I've repaired quite a few over the years too. The fix is simple. Either glue in some toothpicks or drill and install a dowel and put the screw in the dowel. The toothpicks do a pretty good job. The glue and wood are tougher that original hole and they hold up pretty well but if the old screw hole is too badly damaged then you have to dowel it first. The reason of course for going with mdf or melamine is cost. Not everyone can afford oak cabinets. Sometimes you have to settle for less and work with the issues. Nothing organic holds up well against water.


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## Rebelwork Woodworking (Sep 11, 2004)

I understand... Build away...


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

tomp913 said:


> Nick,
> 
> If you do a search on his YouTube channel, he has one video where he gives a shop tour, it's amazing what he's able to cram into that smallish space and still turn out the work he does. He does however get a lot of his larger parts cut to size by the"lumber yard" - apparently he gives them a cut list and they break down the sheets on their CNC equipment.



Thanks, Tom...I found the shop tour video...gives a whole new meaning to "multifunctional"...


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## tomp913 (Mar 7, 2014)

Here's another option

Blum Expansion Socket - Blum Dowels

The MDF doors I use standard Mepla hinges and screws, but they don't see that much use so haven't had a problem in the 25+ years since I installed them. The plastic dowels can be used to repair damaged holes as well as for new installations.


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## pusserboy (Mar 4, 2018)

Well gentlemen I wish to thank you for the great debate and the opion of Mr Bob Vila is appreciated.
Since I wish to make these doors only once and the MDF that is for cabinet door is probably just as or close to the price of wood.
So I feel I shoult go with wood.
The other question to be answered is without company name only type the kind of primer and paint would be best for kitchen.
Thanks 
Stuart


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

I like the melamine paints for kitchen and bathroom.


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## pusserboy (Mar 4, 2018)

Thanks Charles for your answer.

Isn't Latex semi gloss or latex acrylic better than melamine because of kitchen grease.
Stu


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## mgmine (Jan 16, 2012)

You want to use a hard paint and acrylic enamel is the way to go. I like Sherwin Williams All surface enamel and it usually goes on sale for 30% off. If possible spray the cupboards.


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## pusserboy (Mar 4, 2018)

MGMINE : Thanks for the come back I think that is the way I'll go.
I went to Sherwin Williams and they said the new emulsion paints is the way to go, they contain the properties of laytex and alkyd.
It is made for cabinets and molding
The next thing I need is opinion on pannels. 
For shaker doors I know if you are installing raised pannels you need room for expansion but is it the same if your pannel is 1/4 inch plywood ?
Thanks all looking foward to all the opinions.
Stuart


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Sorry I didn't get back to this earlier Stu. I checked an old can of melamine paint I had and it used hydrocarbon solvents. (it was that old) so I don't know if it's still available and it wouldn't still be the same paint but it was very good for both kitchen and bath.

I just went to Benjamin Moore for some paint that I could spray onto a night stand that I made for my wife and they said that the paint has modified oil in it that is still water soluble and low VOC. Possibly the same stuff SW recommended to you. I couldn't previously spray straight water based paint with my gun but I could spray this stuff, barely. It had a very slow drying time which I think is important for a good finish as it gives the paint time to self level before it skins over, something the fast dry finishes ware bad at. This paint had a 16 hour recoat time like paint used to be years ago. I never had problems with brush marks back then but I had problems with that when they went to fast dry.


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## pusserboy (Mar 4, 2018)

Cherryville Chuck thanks for the answer.
Now but can I glue in the pannel if I'm using 1/4 inch ply.
Stu


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

I think you should be able to. If you are using wood for rails and stiles I would think that if there is some movement in the wood with humidity that it should be able to expand outward away from the plywood. You only have to worry about wood changing dimension across the grain and usually not worry about it moving in the direction of the grain. Of course if you are using wood then you shouldn't need to either as the panels normally aren't glued in on solid wood raised panel doors. I saw Norm Abrams say on an episode of the New Yankee Workshop once that he glues the center one inch at top and bottom and this was to help prevent the panel from rattling when the wood was at its driest. If you are still thinking about using mdf for rails and stiles then glue it for sure.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Glue ply panels top and bottom in the middle. You can also buy something called "space balls" whih are little 1/4 rubber spheres that fit in the groove and hold the ply, wood or glass in place so they don't rattle and stay centered. Yes, there is such a thing, and I an proove it.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

or use window screen spline...


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Stick486 said:


> or use window screen spline...


You can also make strips by squeezing a long stripes of calking on a piece of wax paper. Cut only what you need. No trip to the store or mail order that way.


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## pusserboy (Mar 4, 2018)

Thanks to everyone for all the advice, have all I need now to start the job. when I get them made I'll take pictures and put them up.
Just waiting for the weather to warm up a little more so I can work in the garage.
Stuart


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

We like pictures Stu. The days have been pretty nice here in the west for the last 4 or 5.


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## mgmine (Jan 16, 2012)

pusserboy said:


> Cherryville Chuck thanks for the answer.
> Now but can I glue in the pannel if I'm using 1/4 inch ply.
> Stu


Yes, you can glue the plywood all away around. Be aware that the 1/4" plywood will most likely not be a good tight fit. The rail and stile bit set may or may not be a true quarter inch. I have used both birch plywood which didn't fit and 1/4" MDF which didn't fit. I have always glued the complete inner panel. One other thing to keep in mind if using European hinges, don't put an edge on the doors, leave then square. Sherwin Williams is having a 40% off sale now.

One other thing with plywood is that you may find that once painted you will see a wavy pattern on the surface which you don't see if it is varnished. I don't know why but I experienced it twice for two different stores. I think it's because the big box stores sell crappy birch plywood but there isn't usually a lot of choices these days on where to but sheet goods. You might want to experiment on a sample before deciding which to use.


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## pusserboy (Mar 4, 2018)

Charles 
My sister-in law sent me a picture of their new umbrella because it is so hot there ( brag brag )!

mgmine
There was only one store Reno Depot that had 1/4 inch plywood. So I didn't have any choice. I checked the grove for the rails and the plywood with a micrometer and it fits perfect.

So gentlemen thanks for the answers and take care.
Stuart


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