# Handplane for narrow groowes



## Tiny (Aug 12, 2012)

As some of you know I restore old wooden thing's like window's, toy's, furniture's, floor's etc. I would need a hand plane that make's narrow groowe's, something like 3-6mm. I would be more than happy if I'd had plans to make it my self. Do you know of any?
Now somebody will ask that why don't you use ski's. Because of the setup time.
So if you have something for me in this mater I would be very pleased (happy).


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## boogalee (Nov 24, 2010)

Hi Tiny

Lee Valley

Al


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

Today is the last day for Lee Valley's free shipping offer.... Great company to do business with...


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## Tiny (Aug 12, 2012)

They are impressive tool's. All I have red about them in FWW gives me the feeling that I want to own Lee Valey's plane's but with a price tag of 300-400 usd it wont happen very soon.


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

Tiny....Lee Valley offers these small rabbet planes run about 70.00 USD each, or a set of 6,8 and 10mm for 180.00 USD

If you are looking the the biggest band for your buck when it comes to hand planes, take a look at the Wood River line of planes.... Much less expensive than Lee Valley or Lie Nielsen. There was some quality control issues with many of the early versions of the plane, but the Version 3 planes have been quite impressive...


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

Tiny, you may be able to modify these plans to build one of you own... 

HOCK Shoulder Plane Kit Assembly


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## Tiny (Aug 12, 2012)

Yes Bill!!
That was a good link. Thank's.
I rather _make_ one and spend the rest in cheese's and good redwine!


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## MikeMa (Jul 27, 2006)

Another option form Lee Valley:

Lee Valley Tools - Important Announcement

And they have 3mm, 4mm, 5mm, and 6mm blades available for it


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

Hi Esko. Router plane, but why buy, when you can make? :dance3:
This links may help you out, and if not, let me know and I'll look a bit more.
How to Make a Router Plane 
$5 Router Plane - Popular Woodworking Magazine 
John Wilson

OK, this should do it. Should be no problem to make any size you want, after you make the first one, and learn how to do it. 
Making a router plane.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fshyg1-eLUc


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

Theo.. 

Great couple links, thank you!


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

To add to Theo's Links...

These three are to a similar laminate wooden plane, but use different techniques in construction. The first two use a bought plane iron and chipper. The third goes into cutting out, forging and tempering your own plane iron:

http://www.riverswest.org/uploads/1/6/4/3/16435358/buildawoodenhandplane.pdf
How to build a hand plane
Making a wooden handplane - tutorial in Woodworking - Hand Tools Forum

This one reminded me more of Esko, being more traditional (although a classical Japanese plane) and being carved from one piece:
Making a Dai (Japanese Wooden Plane Body) - April 01, 08 of 2006

This is a 2 part video project from John Heinz on building small radius planes. There's more about it on his website (linked on the video pages). What drew me to this as a choice for Esko is that he goes into making irons cut from scrap circular saw blades. I figured after all that, you would have ideas to build whatever you need:
Making A Wooden Chamfer Plane, Part 1 of 2 - YouTube
Making A Wooden Chamfer Plane, Part 2 of 2 - YouTube


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## Tiny (Aug 12, 2012)

Thank's Theo! This is a great help. You'r so right with doing it your self. I think I can manage it. Not maby with my left hand straight away but maby the next... : )
Great link's! Thank you!


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## Tiny (Aug 12, 2012)

Thank you very much for the help I got and offered. It would have taken me a lifetime to find all these marvelous links. A lifetime of a giant turtle (Geochelone *****).
Now I can fill up my closet with alll sort's of handplanes.
Thank you Mike for the link of making a Dai. Before joining the forum I knew that a handplane is made of a single piece of wood. This is the only link I have seen that support's my knowledge of that. When I saw that a plane is made of several pieces of wood I thought "Well it is a piece of cake if i don't have to carve it from just one log".
All these link's make my hand's iitching!!


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## Kbrown187 (Nov 12, 2013)

I have to agree with Tiny these are great links and for me my hand are itchy too. 

Thanks for posting
Kelley


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

Good grief. I saw those links, and got curious again. When I get curious, I usually do a search. Well, got these, then gave up again. There's more out there, but I'm looked out for now. Pick and choose, then have fun.
How to Build a Scrap Wood Finger Plane with a Chisel Blade / Rockler How-to 
How to Make a Router Plane
Chisel Plane DIY - YouTube 
Poor man's router - It works! | Paul Sellers


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## Tiny (Aug 12, 2012)

You know theo, I sit on the toilt lid, read your post laughing of how wonderfull link's you have dig up, and hasitating of getting to sleep. That's so easy to you to find great link's. I apriciate very much of your contribution to find marwellous sites and results to my question!!
Thank's!


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

I think we all forgot to ask you want the application was / what you are trying to make a groove in. 3-6mm is a fairly common size and easy to put in with a router or a saw. And if a flat bottom is not needed, common size for wood carving gouging knives.

I was excited by your question, but on thinking back... you have me curious about that.


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## Tiny (Aug 12, 2012)

Oh yes Mike. I forgot to tell what is my need.
In the lowest part of the window frame is a water groove in the bottom. Maby your window's has it too? It is about 3-6mm broad (narrow). It cut's the way for the dropping water or the capilaric fenomenon end's in the groowe so the lowest part don't rott to quicly.


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

So... the groove where the red arrow is pointing in the attachment?


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

Tiny said:


> You know theo, I sit on the toilt lid, read your post laughing of how wonderfull link's you have dig up, and hasitating of getting to sleep. That's so easy to you to find great link's. I apriciate very much of your contribution to find marwellous sites and results to my question!!
> Thank's!


No problem. I used to do a ton of searching, finding books on-line. Took me about six months to find one at a price I could afford, so I got a lot of practice finding stuff online. Got all the books I want (mostly), so now usually just search for inspiration for projects of my own, mostly pictures, save all that look good, then go thru later and discard what won't work, then go thru and discard more, repeat until I am down to just a very few, then go from there. 

Just post pictures.


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## Tiny (Aug 12, 2012)

MAFoElffen said:


> So... the groove where the red arrow is pointing in the attachment?


I don't understand your picture... I have to see it on a PC. It's very strange...


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## Tiny (Aug 12, 2012)

Now I have seen it and no the groowe isn't were the red arrow is. Your drawing is missing a profile that is essential to the outer window shas


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## Tiny (Aug 12, 2012)

Hi Mike. To your question I made a picture were you can see the real place of the red arrow. The wall in the drawing is a very typical construktion in Finnish houses with very little of variations. That construktion was used starting at least from 1800 century till 1950 and even later.
The groowe is underneath the "water nose". It is as long as the frame is broad.


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## vindaloo (May 30, 2009)

I recently put a triangular section like that over the top of the workshop door. If the triangular piece is not attached couldn't you just run it across the table saw?


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Interesting, Esko; that's not a detail I've ever seen before. Our exterior window sills have drip channels to stop the water from running back into the wall under the window.
Here's a .pdf of a typical older window that's been renovated to meet modern standards...
http://basc.pnnl.gov/sites/default/files/cad-files/M4_Example sill detail.pdf
The under side of an old sash is certainly prone to water damage, even if they have a slope to match the sill slope. The interior 'sill' is actually a 'stool'.


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## Tiny (Aug 12, 2012)

It seams to me that you have made an easy construction very complicated. Your construction is inviting the rott to visite. It's much better that the window sill is on the warm side and the window's are in the same line with the wall. 
Now that you Dan have seen the window consruction from the side do you still want me to take pictures to the other thread about window hardwear?


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## Tiny (Aug 12, 2012)

vindaloo said:


> I recently put a triangular section like that over the top of the workshop door. If the triangular piece is not attached couldn't you just run it across the table saw?


Hi Angie. What triangular section?

Doing a groowe with a table saw is complicated for many reasons. First of all I have to be in a place that has electrisity secondly the adjustment of the side fence and blade hight isn't allways a piece of cake. It's very hard to "try" with a table saw.3. I think it's better that I can see what I'm doing. With a machine that turns wood into dust very quicly allso makes damage with the same speed and if I make damage to my customers window's I have to repair it. So a flip or a mistake might destroy an allmost ready window meaning I have to repair the damage on my own time. Old sash parts (4) can be bent. A TS is good to saw straight wood.The last thing is that it's easy to make a 3-4mm. broad groowe by hand. Then there are alot of thing's I have to use machines because I can't do by hand or it take's too much time. Repairing old windows includes many phases and a heap of tool's. 
It doesn't matter if you are a hobbyst or a professional woodworker, you will be exposed for a lot of noice. If I can minimaze the amount of db in my shop I will do it and a hand plane is a good start.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Esko; our traditional windows are made with a sloping sill to the exterior, and a flat (level) 'stool' on the interior. The exterior sash closes tightly against the back face of the stool. Modern windows generally are a lot more complex.
But you're right, a lot of damage has been done to the interior stools and sash frames...especially the bottom member...over the decades from condensation dripping down. I don't think not having a drip channel on the underside of the sash has been anywhere near the problem that rotting sills have been...all due to lack of maintenance.


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Tiny said:


> It seams to me that you have made an easy construction very complicated. Your construction is inviting the rott to visite. It's much better that the window sill is on the warm side and the window's are in the same line with the wall.
> Now that you Dan have seen the window consruction from the side do you still want me to take pictures to the other thread about window hardwear?


LOL = Esko--> Before you say something too soon... What I posted was by C.W Riley. As a tradesman, you might want to research on him. He was an English instructor, lecturer, architect and author. He taught and lectured on subjects to prepare students for the "City And Guilds Of London Institute" trades qualifications exams.

So what I posted is known to me (American) and Dan (Canadian)... but because the CGLI was the foundation for what our and European "trades" qualifications were based on and from.

So the designs Dan and I thought it was, was actually European based... not American or Canadian. My experience in restoration carpentry, is trying to restore those designs... That's why I have such an interest of those old (period) European texts on joining, carpentry, cabinetry and furniture making.

Rot? As Dan tried to explain, those profiles follow a basic law of physics- water is affected by gravity. It drains downhill. Other forces affect that, by wind. The Outside swinging sash construction's profiles that I posted, was adopted by the trades of Europe, followed those concepts and has worked for them for _centuries_.

LOL- That does not say that that was the only construction for that. Only one of. That one was one of the accepted methods, took more work to create, thus more costly. Imagine trying to create all those profiles by "hand!"

Unfortunately Dan and I live in the Pacific Northwest, where we have more rainy days than sun. Where I live, I have the Olympic rain forest nearby. We get less than 52 days without rain... and most those days are either foggy or overcast. Both Dan and I worked in construction, trying to make things last in this climate. I'm thinking Finland is probably somewhat similar. 

I doubt water flows uphill in Finland. We are all affected by the same gravity. So, what we were describing is not better, not worse... maybe a little different in it's application. I, for one, would like to see those pictures.

What you said you were working on had a "pair" of "double" sash windows... One double window opening out and the other double window opening in... and the window your were dealing with was the outer outside opening window. (Or am I confused by the other thread?)


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Mike; as all of us in the Pacific Northwest (rainforest) know water is insidious. It gets into everything downhill. It's always shocked me at how oblivious homeowners are, in general, to simple maintenance. "But the guy at the paint-store said it'd last 10 years." Yeh, but did he say to ignore it if it started to blister or peel?  
So much of what we encountered in doing condo rot restoration was due to simply ignoring growing problems like plugged roof drains and defective vinyl on patio decks.
I wish I had a $ for every cigarette burn in a vinyl deck that led to thousands of dollars in repairs to rotted framing...as I said, water runs downhill, and it doesn't stop till it gets to the ocean.


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## Tiny (Aug 12, 2012)

I'm dealing with the inner sash that opens inside house/ innwards/ towards you when you are inside the house/ not out... In my drawing you see the groowe and how the window construktion looks like as a side view.
Snow(water) get's everywear even upwads...lol 
i WILL check Riley. We share the same interest for the same reason. The inner sashes are not put up on hinges because traditionally the bouble(inner)sash was carried to the attic in the summer. I try to arrange pic's for you!


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

I don't think you mentioned previously, Esko, that the inner sash was temporary and demountable. We used to use a similar system over here, years ago. The Putting Up of The Storm Windows is/was a N. American ritual. It normally occurred after a particularly harsh lecture from the Lady of the manor...and probably soon after the first blizzard. 
I wouldn't have any personal experience, living here in the banana belt of Canada...:no:
But I digress! I think the storm windows were mounted on the exterior? With these...


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## vindaloo (May 30, 2009)

Tiny said:


> Hi Angie. What triangular section?


The one highlighted in the image below.



Tiny said:


> Doing a groowe with a table saw is complicated for many reasons. First of all I have to be in a place that has electrisity


Sorry, didn't see you mention there was no electric.



Tiny said:


> secondly the adjustment of the side fence and blade hight isn't allways a piece of cake. It's very hard to "try" with a table saw.


I measured the distance from the right vertical to how far from there I wanted the groove to be and set the fence. Then I set the depth of my TS blade to the depth of the groove I wanted.



Tiny said:


> 3. I think it's better that I can see what I'm doing. With a machine that turns wood into dust very quicly allso makes damage with the same speed and if I make damage to my customers window's I have to repair it. So a flip or a mistake might destroy an allmost ready window meaning I have to repair the damage on my own time.
> Old sash parts (4) can be bent.
> A TS is good to saw straight wood.


I used a scrap for test purposes.
I misunderstood, I thought you were adding a new part to repair the old.
I obviously wrongly assumed the window was straight. Sorry

I am sorry I totally misunderstood your original post. I thought it was a simple dado (groove) across the bottom of the window to stop rainwater running, via capillary action, back onto the frame of the window to avoid rot setting in.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

_"Snow(water) get's everywear even upwads...lol "_
-Esko


????!.... how the heck does snow get past the outer sash? The inner storm window should simply act as a thermal barrier. Are you talking about ice melt from the inside of the outer sash ( ie frozen condensation)?


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## Tiny (Aug 12, 2012)

Ups.. I'm mixing two tread's. Sorry!
In "Handplane for narrow groowes" I'm mainly talking about outer sash and
In "Window hardwear" I'm talking about the inner sash.

"We share the same interest for the same reason". Well not interily for same reason but basicly. I have never seen a British style window in Finland. I don't know if our window style comes from east or west. All our neighbour's use's basicly samekind of window's.

The term "storm window" is new to me. Our double-window's (your storm-window's) is allways the inner sash. For a long time our outer sash has been flush with the exterior wall. In that way the water, snow or a mixture of both has a minimum place to "hang on". So even we demount the double window it doesn't efect on the protection of the window constuction. You know Dan that we have a nice climate here that all types of weather is possible. It's normal but not very common that we have snowfall in June or +10C in Decemer. We can have snow over one meter (we don't have mountain's) so bad wether is typical here.
Kppen classification
Our climate is on the Köppen classification a code Df

"Are you talking about ice melt from the inside
of the outer sash ( ie frozen condensation)?"
Dan

What?? You have those problems?? No way! We have a long winter. It can be 6-7 months even in southern Finland. With window's like that it would be a pain in the lower back to keep the house warm.
It was just a sort of harmless joke.


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## Tiny (Aug 12, 2012)

"Sorry, didn't see you mention there was no electric.

I measured the distance from the right vertical to how far from there I wanted the groove to be and set the fence. Then I set the depth of my TS blade to the depth of the groove I wanted.

I used a scrap for test purposes.
I misunderstood, I thought you were adding a new part to repair the old.
I obviously wrongly assumed the window was straight. Sorry

I am sorry I totally misunderstood your original post. I thought it was a simple dado (groove) across the bottom of the window to stop rainwater running, via capillary action, back onto the frame of the window to avoid rot setting in.[/QUOTE]"

Hi Angie. You did not misuderstand my post. I have used TS for making the grooves but there are allways the possibility that something goes wrong. A fast moving blade is allways problematic when restoring things. Router is a good choise to remove wood but not in this case. 
The old part of the sash can be bent in two directions and because the straight edge outwards from the groove is so narrow, allso 3-4mm, it could happen that the groove comes to close to the "surface"? The table and the fence of the TS are so long that the piece of the sash "hangs" betwene two spots (like a bow) on the TS. When repairing old stuff there are seldome thing's that are: "... (just) a simple....". 
A "just a simple thing" might take a whole day..

Sometimes you can use the old part or you just have to replace one joint and/or the groove is so warn that you almost can't see it. Then it would just be quicker to remove a little bit of wood with the handplane that is allways set to this procedure. Ten second's and it would be done. 
I like working outside in the free air. There are several phases and maby none of them need electricity. I could make the groove by hand. I wouldn't have to use power for that. Besides I might have 5 dog's with me on the yard and a running TS and playfull dog's is a bäd combination...


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