# Latest CSPC hearings update regarding tablesaw safety



## Tommyt654 (Apr 5, 2009)

http://www.cpsc.gov/LIBRARY/FOIA/meetings/mtg11/adler03022011.pdf , I like the fact they appear for now to have at least discounted Sawstops bid on becoming the new-world order when it comes to Tablesaw safety. I gather they will continue to simply monitor the situation for now. But I thought the PTI's info regarding tablesaw incidents to be interesting considering how Gass and co. have been manufacturing a lot of data to support their product. Veeeery Interestink


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## Ralph Barker (Dec 15, 2008)

Thanks for the link, Tommy. I'm glad the CPSC decided to take no action with respect to mandating SawStop technology.


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## papawd (Jan 5, 2011)

Interesting, I agree


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## The Warthog (Nov 29, 2010)

Frankly, I'm operating on a tight budget, which means Ihave often to make do with tools that are barely adequate for the job, at least if I want to play a game of golf or go to a baseball game as well as do woodworking. I don't want a feature on my saw that will cost me a couple of hundred bucks every time it fires, if it can fire when I'm sawing wet wood or for other reasons. Being careful has stood the test of time for me. 

I would feel the same way about airbags, if they weren't covered by insurance.


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## MikeMa (Jul 27, 2006)

You mean... THERE IS ACTUALLY SOME SANITY IN THE WORLD?!?!? lol

The CPSC is absolutely right that the technology does create a degree of over confidence. I will not name specifics, but look at a few of the guys who have been on TV a long time who generally show safe operations. Then you see them using a saw stop cutting a 2" strip with no push stick or block.

This will likely be what Ryobi needs to win its appeal in that case where the operator was clearly at fault.


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## Gene Howe (Jul 10, 2007)

Bet Gass was fuming.


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## istracpsboss (Sep 14, 2008)

Safety is ever difficult and individuals have to take personal responsibility for much of it.

As an aside about the danger of over legislating, I used to know the French representative to the International Maritime Organisation. At one time, there had been a bad ferry disaster in the Baltic and the media were screaming about tightening up regulations and further installation of safety equipment. 
My friend made a very telling point. If the IMO, as a UN organisation, mandated such things, they would apply globally. This might be all very well in the affluent West, who could afford any ticket price increases to cover it, but would be disastrous for somewhere like Indonesia, a country of thousands of islands whose extremities exceed those of the mainland US and whose largely impecunious population rely heavily upon ferries to island hop for basics. Any major fare increases would dramatically reduce traffic and if routes became non viable, they would cease altogether.

Safety has a price and it may be too high to pay.

Cheers

Peter


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## Cochese (Jan 12, 2010)

This is good news.


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## Tommyt654 (Apr 5, 2009)

FWIW, Voice your opinions here, 

Robert Adler
Commissioner
U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission
4330 East West Highway
Bethesda, MD 20814-4408301-504-7731 (phone)
[email protected]


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## AxlMyk (Jun 13, 2006)

Gene Howe said:


> Bet Gass was fuming.


Aww. Poor baby.


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## Thrifty Tool Guy (Aug 23, 2007)

Not to be an SOB, but the three stitches in my thumb cost $100 with really good insurance. If you haven't noticed, ER visit co-pays are rising to stop people from using the ER for routine services.

In any event, the blade didn't hit any bone and the flesh is mending. As a result, I was at my SawStop dealer today comparing the SawStop units with Jet, Powermatic and Grizzly units. It's not a bad system and the operating principal seem sound. It does cost more, but accidents will happen. 

As any long term motorcyclist will tell you, it's just a matter of time, but you will go down. How well you protect yourself will likely determine the extent of your injuries.

Have a good one.


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## amaonline (Jan 1, 2011)

The injured party was at fault and no one else should have to pay for his negligence.
I do however still love my Sawstop cabinet saw and have not had an accident with nor have I tripped the safety cartridge. I have used it to cut non-ferrous metals and wet material without a hitch. I hate the controversy surrounding this product because IMO it is an excellent tool. The ethics of the Company owner and founder are questionable and that is a shame. I have to add that I still exercise the same safety protocols that I did prior to getting it. That blade is still intimidating so I have to say that I am not "lax" just because that safety device is activated.


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

> ....they were concerned that SawStop's technology would not prevent kickback or flying wood chips -which account for 24% of the injuries from the product.


That in itself is a telling figure when you think about it, especially as most of those injuries are avoidable by a simple modification to the rip fence design (the short position European-style rip fence).



amaonline said:


> The injured party was at fault and no one else should have to pay for his negligence.
> I do however still love my Sawstop cabinet saw and have not had an accident with nor have I tripped the safety cartridge....... I hate the controversy surrounding this product because IMO it is an excellent tool. The ethics of the Company owner and founder are questionable and that is a shame.


Yes it is a shame (the controversy). As has been the (alleged) manipulation of statistics by supporters of this technology to prove a point. Of the 770 accidents quoted in the minutes just how many of them occurred in the absence of either a crown guard and/or a riving knife. I wonder? Sorry guys, but my experience of American woodworkers is that those two items go in the bin/drawer/corner of the shop around day 2 of saw ownership, which is a shame because if they were used more they would prevent a large number of accidents. 

Regards

Phil


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## Marco (Feb 21, 2009)

No matter the tool, the operator has to operate it safely.

Less government...... more tools!!!


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Having seen a live demonstration of the saw stop in action I must say I am impressed with the concept. I think the product is a good idea and will catch on in time. I do not like the fact that a private owner is trying to force it down everyone's throat for profit. If he was really so concerned about everyones safety he would offer an extremely low cost license to companies who wanted to add the feature to their saw tables. My guess is if all saws came equiped with a stopping device like this the price difference would be about $20 per table and people would be willing to pay that for added safety; at least I would.


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## Gene Howe (Jul 10, 2007)

Life is tough. Even tougher if you're stupid.
The saw stop is yet another example of the general population (in this case, a population of woodworkers) paying for a few stupid one's negligence. 
I paid for my stupidity with the loss of the use of my right index finger and disfigured next finger. It was tough lesson well learned. My stupidity, my loss. As it should be.


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

What would Charles Darwin have to say regarding Government legislating to protect the weaker/stupid members of society...

According to his theory, those are the very ones that slow down a society.....:lol::lol::lol:


Very tongue in cheek.......


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Thank you Jim, Mike, Gene, and James. Sorry Thrifty if I don't feel true pity for you. I have about 40 years of woodworking experience under my belt, and for the most part my worst experiences have been some really bad slivers. I really don't think I should have to pay for the lack of foresight and planning of others. I also really don't believe that government can legislate common sense or legislate policies that compensate for lack of common sense. For some reason, we seem to have lost the principle of "user accountability". In other words, if you plan to use a tool, you should first learn how to use it safely, instead of just walking up and hitting the start switch. JMO


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## Cochese (Jan 12, 2010)

Gene Howe said:


> Life is tough. Even tougher if you're stupid.
> The saw stop is yet another example of the general population (in this case, a population of woodworkers) paying for a few stupid one's negligence.
> I paid for my stupidity with the loss of the use of my right index finger and disfigured next finger. It was tough lesson well learned. My stupidity, my loss. As it should be.


Well said.


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## Tommyt654 (Apr 5, 2009)

Unfortunatly looks as tho Gass and Greenburg may have won, I for 1 have written my congressman to advocate that the new rules to be implemented only apply to firms larger than 10 people. That will limit the cost to regular consumers I hope. Meanwhile I'm keeping all 10 digits where they need to be, away from a spinning blade and out of Gass's pocket, What a jerk , Advocates Urge Lawmakers To Make Table Saws Safer : NPR


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## Tommyt654 (Apr 5, 2009)

If you really want your voice heard on this here's the guy to contact, and he actually will respond to ypur e-mails regarding upcoming proposed legislation, Adler, Robert" <[email protected]


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Tommyt654 said:


> I for 1 have written my congressman to advocate that the new rules to be implemented only apply to firms larger than 10 people. That will limit the cost to regular consumers I hope.


Forgive me, but isn't that the wrong approach? Isn't the SawStop is aimed squarely at the home shop market where there is a far higher liklihood of untrained, unsupervised individuals injuring themselves? Surely firms with more than 10 employees are hardly likely to view the SawStop as worthwhile technology partly because in those establishments which are properly run saw guards and riving knives remain in place. The bigger shops tend also to be users of sliding table panel saws where your fingers are nowhere near the blade for the vast majority of cuts. That makes them intrinsically much safer. 

Just trying to see where you are coming from, here

Regards

Phil


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## Tommyt654 (Apr 5, 2009)

No as a matter of fact Gass has targeted the larger firms by enlisting the aid of insurance companies to allow larger firms to enjoys discounts by using his saws. Interestingly enough a great many companies that have gone out of business in the past few yrs have had these saws go for as high as 2-3K in auction house's as he makes a much larger machine, His original that was never intended for the home workshop and now he is making them smaller and smaller to accomodate the homeowner type shops or the cabinet style that many here and elsewhere utilize. This is exactly the mandate we should argue for. This in turn will allow us the small shop owner to still enjoy the use of whatever saw we choose and not be forced to 1 type of manufacturer or style of device. Since the Whirlwind technology is right around the corner most of us will easily be able to afford such a device if Gass and his patent buddy atty friends will relenquish their rein of confusion on the patent office.I understand where your thinking comes from as Gass has always conned folks into believeing his greater good is for the smaller individual shop owner, thats another Gass farce intended to proliferate his profit margin, The only thing he truly cares about. If he really ever intended this to be what his alledged intention were to save us all from our ignorant selves with his mastermind invention why did he not give it freely to mankind to save us all from ourselves and the stupidity of others?


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Tommyt654 said:


> Interestingly enough a great many companies that have gone out of business in the past few yrs have had these saws go for as high as 2-3K in auction house's as he makes a much larger machine, His original that was never intended for the home workshop and now he is making them smaller and smaller to accomodate the homeowner type shops or the cabinet style that many here and elsewhere utilize. This is exactly the mandate we should argue for.


Sorry, but a 10in saw is NOT a commercial size saw, at least not in my terms, and that's the biggest saw Gass sells. SawStop doesn't make anything remotely in the same league as the big Altendorf, Martin, SCM and other European-style panel saws and in the commercial world that's where the big bucks are, at least over here in Europe where even one and two man shops use such machines. I understand from some people in machinery manufacturing that the technology is approaching its' limit with 7.5HP and 10in and that the braking forces required for bigger saws (15HP and 16in blades are not that uncommon) are simply beyond its' capabilities. It also can't be readily applied to crosscut saws or bandsaws. Great! 

The more I read about this quasi-legal quagmire the more I believe that the EU got it right and that the US Govt is all at sea. Primary safety in design and training will always yield a greater improvement in safety over the sticking plaster approach Gass appears to be trying for. 

Regards

Phil


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## Tommyt654 (Apr 5, 2009)

Agreed,. but here in the states a 10 inch will so a majority of the work in almost all manufacturing plants concerned with woodworking. Yup, We are way behind you guys when it comes to safety thats for sure.and your correct that when we allow GovCo to continue its intereference into our lives its usually for profit rather than true safety. But in the meantime I still urge all to contact their state reps and Senaotors about this matter, Pro or Con makes no diff to me as long as we have a voice other than Gass's


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## Tommyt654 (Apr 5, 2009)

IRS Auction Search, Simply do a search here for tablesaws and you will see what I mean, There are even a few Sawslops available, but as you will see mainly 10 inch saws being used vs 12 or larger.


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