# Making of window frames



## Tiny (Aug 12, 2012)

Hello all you fellow woodworkers.
Sometimes clients ask me if I allso make window freames. When not having a shaper the answer has allways been an obwious no. But can they be made with a router? I Obviously know how to make window frames since I repair them in the original way with hand saw and chisel but that's not an option to make all the joints by hand if somebody orders 14 windows from me. 
How would you make 14 frames that means 48 open mortise and tenon joints. I have a tiny Delta 1500w ts and the basic power and hand tools but not a bandsaw. A mill would do the profile for me. Buying a shaper is not the right answer because I don't have an extra 2000euro for it.

This link will show you the normal type of window frame that are used in Finland



Vanha ikkuna - Lundagård | sisustus perinnerakentaminen vintage | nettikauppa


----------



## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Hi, Esko; long time since we last heard from you! 
Here in Canada, all new windows must be sealed unit glazing, either double or triple glazing.
This has necessitated changes in the way windows are made commercially. For example, in a divided lite sash such as you've pictured, the cost of individual sealed units for each lite is prohibitive in most situations therefor alternate technology has been developed that will give the same effect but with a single large sealed unit.
I`ve made sash using only my builders saw and a router, granted I started with wood of the correct thickness. You don`t need a shaper but a planer would be really helpful.


----------



## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

You could use a rail and stile bit set for the profiles. The short tenon on those bits might not make strong enough joints. You could make a simple dowel jig for making stronger corners and use dowels in the corners.


----------



## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Like Dan said, "it's been a while"... I enjoyed your posts and have missed them. Had a good season? Now slowing down yet?

I think as last time you were here... You are tall and you were working in some small confined space. You had hand and powered hand tools. You were building a bigger workspace... And people asked if a router table would help you out in what you did.

How is the shop coming along?

Yes shaper would be spendy for you. Not just in the machine cost, but in getting tooled up with shaper cutters.

There's still the option of a self-built router table. Maybe something that could break down so it doesn't commit permanent space(?)

Another option might be molding head with cutters. But then you would have to get a table saw capable of driving a molding head. (and you would have to have space for it.)

I think you were basically "joining " along the lines of:








But I think I remember your pictures being better and a better design than....Details on the joining in the attached.

But as I remember, back then you were asking about "window making" bits to use on a router table. Wait one... Here it was: http://www.routerforums.com/router-bits-types-usage/37461-bits-making-window-frames.html

I didn't re-read it, but I think I remember sill edge, sash, tongue and groove, rabbet (Euro referred as rebate) and other profiles were discussed...

Maybe we should get an update on where you are at now and were you want to go from there(?) Otherwise- Is this a rehash of that year-old thread?


----------



## Tiny (Aug 12, 2012)

*window regulations*



DaninVan said:


> Hi, Esko; long time since we last heard from you!
> Here in Canada, all new windows must be sealed unit glazing, either double or triple glazing.
> This has necessitated changes in the way windows are made commercially. For example, in a divided lite sash such as you've pictured, the cost of individual sealed units for each lite is prohibitive in most situations therefor alternate technology has been developed that will give the same effect but with a single large sealed unit.
> I`ve made sash using only my builders saw and a router, granted I started with wood of the correct thickness. You don`t need a shaper but a planer would be really helpful.


Hello Dan and thank's for the kind wellcoming.
It's same here in Finland when you build a new house or if you repair a window that is from a house that is built after an sertain year. But the windows I'm talking about are made earlier than 1960 so I don't have to care about new regulations etc. I know quite much about the regulations and how things are allso today. Because there are involved large sums of money there is allso vey much disinfomation that are pure process of digestion. The whole truth is not that that all old windows are just rubbish and you don't do anything with them. Window manufacturers here in Finland have compared old worn windows to brand new factory made windows. It's not difficult to guess which one is better if the varnish based chalk and cotton seals have dryed decades ago. If the compairable number for a new topwindow is 1.1 and 4.5 for the worn and old it's easyer for Bob and Gertrud to say "yes" to the salesman even the new windows cost three times more compaired to a restoration of the old windows.
Acording to a large Swedish survey http://www.solventfreepaint.com/i/PDF/windows_casestudy.pdf
a restorated windows with new seals made from TPE or EPDM-rubber is still a good choise in old houses. If you replace your old windows you destroy the harmonic exterior of your house and you loose a big piece of cultural history.
Sorry Dan I don't thing you are a window salesman and I'm not atacing on you.

A planer and a deasent shop vac with 4" hose is on top of the list ones I have my shop ready.


----------



## Tiny (Aug 12, 2012)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> You could use a rail and stile bit set for the profiles. The short tenon on those bits might not make strong enough joints. You could make a simple dowel jig for making stronger corners and use dowels in the corners.


Hello Charley.
As a Professional restoration carpenter I can't restorate windows in some "new way". I must follow the old way that is seen here 
http://www.nba.fi/fi/File/127/korjauskortti-8.pdf
I use dowels but just as locks and I craft them with knife. It's a rectangular stick that I hammer in the small hole at the side of the open mortise and tenon. Old solid pine that was felt one hudred years ago is/was the best, nowdays, wood to use in window frames. Shurely oak is ok but if you think were oak grows, northen Finland starts quite south. On the south and west side of the house without the protective forest in the foreground the wood in the frames have to cope against unfriendly environment as you as an Canadian know. The frame meachures are about 
35x50mm and sometimes less. The old wood in the frames are quite sencitive to all mechanical stress. Oh, I forgot we were talking about making new windows in old style. Pardon. Anyhow that was a good thought Charles. I've tryed it but it looks clumsy like it does't belong there. A handmade/restord window frame and a factory made dowel. The joint, open mortise and tenon, is locked with a hand carved stick and locked with a brass/tin square that is sqrewd with five litle screws. Finaly when the glass is fastend with good oldtime varnish based chalk (Kitti in Finnish) and three leyers of varnish based paint has dryed the window is a solid piece of beautiful craftmanship!!


----------



## Tiny (Aug 12, 2012)

MAFoElffen said:


> Like Dan said, "it's been a while"... I enjoyed your posts and have missed them. Had a good season? Now slowing down yet?
> 
> I think as last time you were here... You are tall and you were working in some small confined space. You had hand and powered hand tools. You were building a bigger workspace... And people asked if a router table would help you out in what you did.
> 
> ...


You know Mike, it's nice to see that you three think I should be here. To be more poetical, as one great guitar player ones sung "you make my heart sing..." (he was a he** of a guitar player and a songwriter. He wrote songs like "Angel", "Litle wing", "Hey Joe" and "woodoo child". Have you heard of him?  Can't listen to him If I wish I would get something done. Oh yes I love his music :yes4: )

For your question: "Now slowing down yet?" I would recomend you to look back in history in form of a citation by Dan: "Finland's climate approximates that of the Yukon" and "Seasons in Finland - Ilmatieteen laitos". 
The last month or 28 days without free time me and my wife have been building a new stall to the horses(2). It's a "pihatto" for two horses. The translation for "pihatto" is so stupid I ask you to check the link
https://www.google.com/search?q=pih...QS834HQBQ&ved=0CDUQsAQ&biw=1024&bih=585&dpr=1
Now the newbuild is ready. The old "pihatto" WILL be my shop. The one I spoke of last year, we call it just number 4, somehow wasn't good. Maby it is in the shadow in the summer that paint that normaly dryed in 2 days wasn't dry in 4. An un acseptable situation. So our old "pihatto" will continue it's life as my new shop. There are lot's of work before I can order that planer or bandsaw or anything. The skeleton of no.5 (let's call the "old pihatto" as "number 5" or just "5"! How do you shorten the word "number"?) is much better than on no.4

So no slowing down yet I am afraid. The autum has been warm until now (no heating) and the woodshed, 16m3, is still untouched.

The molding head sounds interesting and I've planned that sometimes in the future, cant' say when, I must have a decent/ok/? ts.

Yeserday when I had wrote and sent this new post I saw it was allmost identical to the one I wrote earlier. I tryed to delete it but this [email protected] didn't alow me to do it and I was to tired to find the way to do it so I thought that if they wish to kick me for that I can hope them a good jurney to a hot place! 
Sorry for my stupide questions but what is/means: "rehash"? Let me gues. 
a.) it has something to do with old vegetables or garden stuff?
b.) it has something to do with routerforums?


----------



## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Oh course you should be here (and are very welcome here). I think we all enjoyed talking about what we have in common. I also remember that we all had fun over some things that just didn't translate the same.

I think I need to paint a better picture... about "time" and "slowing down." (language wise)

I meant "slow down" as in I assumed that maybe you were seasonally busy, so too busy to post here... and now with the weather season getting along, maybe business slows down just enough that you now have time to reflect on the future and how to do things?

At least, that is how it happens here with me... I sometimes re-evaluate if what I'm doing makes sense to me and is it making me money? Am I happy with my work? Are my customers happy with my work? Can I do it better or smarter?

I remembered that we both did restoration carpentry, so I have a close appreciation to your craft and what you do. especially with the tools you do yours with. I reflect more about that now as my body is catching up me and the doctors try to tell me that I can't keep doing the same things as when I was young.

Anyways- where we left off last time... I thought you were leaning towards a router table that could be somewhat portable / multi-purpose... Now that it sounds like your new building is a stable(?) and you are working in the old shop, that would still make sense for you. That way being portable, it wouldn't take away one of your routers as dedicated use.

As I remember, you are very tall and your shop has a low ceiling. Your square footage of your shop was small, having a worktable as the main fixture, with a something through a wall for long work pieces to be able to extend through... Most of your kit was hand tools, with a few powered hand tools, that included a few hand held routers. Do I remember, right?


----------



## Tiny (Aug 12, 2012)

On the spot. Now when the new home for the horses is ready, they will move in in one or two weeks and then I can start making the inside structure that supports the roof... Long story, are you interesting? Can explain it laiter. ..for the insulation. I am 6'11" and my shop is a part of a cottage 2,2x3m. My space is maby 2x2,2 but there I have some of my tools and stuff that has to be stored in a warm place.
Have to go now. My wife goes to night shift after one and hal hour!


----------



## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

I see from the link you gave that the windows are very similar to old, single glass pane windows here. As Dan said, they are too inefficient for heating here and you don't see too many around anymore. They were very attractive windows and the new ones can be nice but not in the same way.

The outside is just a rabbet/rebate where the glass is installed and held in place by window putty. The inside profile as shown on page 9 in your link is just from a roundover bit with a smaller bearing so that it makes a bead. The joints at the corners we also call them a "saddle joint". Those frames shouldn't be hard to build. I built a large one for my house that just had beveled edges for the trim on each side of the glass and I was able to do it all on the TS.

A pihatto, if it is just for horses, would be called a stable or a horse barn. If it is for other animals it could be called a cow barn or pig barn or simply a barn. In the early 70s some friends and I went from Portland, Oregon to Seattle, Washington to see a Rolling Stones concert. On the way back one of my friends told me to turn off the highway and he led us to a cemetery where we drove around for a few minutes until he said to stop. He got out and we followed him to a grave where the grave marker read "James Marshall Hendrix". It was a simple granite grave stone with his name, the dates, and a couple of guitars engraved on each side. When we left the cemetery the radio station we were listening to played one of his songs so it was a very poetic moment.


----------



## Tiny (Aug 12, 2012)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> I see from the link you gave that the windows are very similar to old, single glass pane windows here. As Dan said, they are too inefficient for heating here and you don't see too many around anymore. They were very attractive windows and the new ones can be nice but not in the same way.
> 
> The outside is just a rabbet/rebate where the glass is installed and held in place by window putty. The inside profile as shown on page 9 in your link is just from a roundover bit with a smaller bearing so that it makes a bead. The joints at the corners we also call them a "saddle joint". Those frames shouldn't be hard to build. I built a large one for my house that just had beveled edges for the trim on each side of the glass and I was able to do it all on the TS.
> 
> A pihatto, if it is just for horses, would be called a stable or a horse barn. If it is for other animals it could be called a cow barn or pig barn or simply a barn. In the early 70s some friends and I went from Portland, Oregon to Seattle, Washington to see a Rolling Stones concert. On the way back one of my friends told me to turn off the highway and he led us to a cemetery where we drove around for a few minutes until he said to stop. He got out and we followed him to a grave where the grave marker read "James Marshall Hendrix". It was a simple granite grave stone with his name, the dates, and a couple of guitars engraved on each side. When we left the cemetery the radio station we were listening to played one of his songs so it was a very poetic moment.


So I thought allso about frames and ts. With the lack of words it would be to comlicated and slow for me to explane what I want and it is this knowledge (of yours) that I'm searching for. It is basicly the terminology that is unfamiliar and without words I can't find anything on the net. Thank you.

One guy called me last summer and asked for my price to restor 6-7 old windows from 1860. One window contains normaly of 4-6 window frames so in his case it meant about 28 frames to restore. My price for him was somethin like 3800-4000euro. He told me the price for factory new windows and it was over 8500euro. 

"As Dan said, they (single glass pane windows) are too inefficient for heating here".
How long and cold winter do you have Charlie? When have you started to use double framed windows in Canada/US?
If those old style windows are restored with old materials and each frame is seald with modern materials there shouldn't be any problem of using them even in the coldest places in Finland like Kittilä 67deg 39' 24" N, 24deg 54' 30" E. It holds the record for the coldest place in Finland with a temperature of -56C/ -68.8F. Still in hundreds of thousends of houses there still are old style windows and people are not passing away in hypotermia everyday. Normal people don't have the money to get new windows in he's or her's house and in my opinion it is a waste of money.

A pihatto is specialy a barn were horses can go freely in and out. In a stall/talli(Finn) there are doors or hatches in the way.

A touching memory you have about the greatest gitar player ever lived.


----------



## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

The winters in Canada vary quite a bit according to where you are. The prairie provinces, the Yukon, and the North West Territories are considered the coldest parts. The coldest I have seen here in northern Alberta (56 north latitude) has been -47C without windchill. The coldest with windchill was -52C. Last winter lasted 7 months but 5 1/2 or 6 is more common. We have a lot of wind here.

You could make all the parts I think on the TS by making 45 degree bevels but a router bit would make a smoother job. The bevel would not be out of place in a restoration, I think it was common because it was more simple. Here is a link with a diagram that may help. Insulated glazing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia I made bevel trim to go on each side of the window (part #5 in diagram) with the TS and part #9, the outside sill. I also made a groove with the TS on the front underside of the sill so that water could not follow the bottom edge to the wall. I installed a double pane sealed window in the frame, like the one in the diagram. I used caulking from a tube where the seals are in the diagram (part #7).
I hope this is helpful.


----------



## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Esko; we use this symbol for 'number'... #
ie* #5*

There's an old Finnish colony at the top end of Vancouver Island, about a couple hundred miles from me. My son-in-law is from there!
Sointula | Culture Shock


----------



## Tiny (Aug 12, 2012)

Mike. Some things remained unsaid...

"Anyways- where we left off last time... I thought you were leaning towards a router table that could be somewhat portable / multi-purpose... Now that it sounds like your new building is a stable(?) and you are working in the old shop, that would still make sense for you. That way being portable, it wouldn't take away one of your routers as dedicated use.

As I remember, you are very tall and your shop has a low ceiling. Your square footage of your shop was small, having a worktable as the main fixture, with a something through a wall for long work pieces to be able to extend through... Most of your kit was hand tools, with a few powered hand tools, that included a few hand held routers. Do I remember, right?"

The stableshop should be ready after a month or so. I was just thinking of my mental helth... I might over react a little but the wether isn't gonna be any better in the comming next 7 month so I/we have to hurry up. 
The router table (as I have planned it) is definently on the list. I was talking about in an earlier thred 
http://www.routerforums.com/introductions/36992-linear-motion-router-jig.html
As I have thought it over I can't move around fragile window frames in a hard inveronment. The router will be moving not the object. But I would think that the table will not be a moveable thing. 
Having a hole in the wall to route big objects!? Man, are you crazy??
You'r right about my tools. Are you familiar with the saying (or is it just Finnish): 
"It's not the size of the tool but how you use it"?


----------



## Tiny (Aug 12, 2012)

#4 becomes a shed and #5 a shop.
Hopefully they feel they have achieveed "it" what ever it is so that it isn't anymore an utopia. Thanks for the link Dan


----------



## Tiny (Aug 12, 2012)

Hi Charles. I have to go thru the terminology first to see what you wrote.


----------



## mgmine (Jan 16, 2012)

MLCS has the bits, scroll down the page to see them they also have a set of directions.

MLCS Rail and Stile Carbide Tipped Router Bits 2


----------



## Tiny (Aug 12, 2012)

Thank's Art. That will be for tomorrow.


----------



## Tiny (Aug 12, 2012)

Those MLCS bits look's really nice. I just bookmarked the site for further investigation. Thank's Art.


----------



## Tiny (Aug 12, 2012)

Maby It's time for what Mike suggested:
"Maybe we should get an update on where you are at now and were you want to go from there".
I've got lots of good advises and suggestions, tips and hints were I can buy bits to make profiles. I thank You all.
You have suggested me to make the profiles with a sertain routerbit. Charles suggested to use a tenoning jig and Mike suggested to use a molding head's with cutter's. I like both. without having seen a ts with a molding head I would think it would be the perfect choise when not afford to buy a 2000e shaper. I would be very surprised if my tiny little delta 1500w 36-520 ts could cope with those molding heads. The tenoning jig will certainly find it's way to my shop sooner than later.

Your window's look very nice with the curvy profiles and bit manufaturers seams to have a trilion of them to shoose from. 
In the old age before we got our independense Finland was a poor country and that reflected to how much houses were decorated. Our windows mainly look the same as in my earlier link. The only differens to the link is that 99.9/100 is painted. Mostly white.

Thank you very much for all your interest to this topic.


----------



## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

Tiny said:


> You know Mike, it's nice to see that you three think I should be here.
> 
> Sorry for my stupide questions but what is/means: "rehash"? Let me gues.
> a.) it has something to do with old vegetables or garden stuff?
> b.) it has something to do with routerforums?


Hey, no reason you shouldn't be here. 

Rehash, is to go over something again; re-talk something.


----------



## Tiny (Aug 12, 2012)

Thank's Joat for puting the word into it's right place for me!


----------



## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

We take things for granted, Esko. Now that you mention it 'hash...' crops up unusual uses.
-_hash_tag
-make a _hash_ of
-_hash_ browns, short for hashed brown potatoes ...basically scrambled potatoes fried in a fry pan until lightly brown (golden) 
probably lots of other uses of the word


----------



## Tiny (Aug 12, 2012)

Thank's Dan for taking care of growing up my vocabulary or the amount of words. : )


----------

