# Us Poor Folk Can't Buy The Good Stuff



## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

It's a typical hot summer day here in West Texas. Typically one of those days that makes it impossible to be out in a tin building where my woodworking tools are. So I spent some time reading about how poorly made the Grizzly woodworking tools are compared to the "Good Ones". 

Kinda funny how such reading can effect a person's thinking. Up until now I have been very happy with my $700 dollar table saw, my Grizzly jointer and band saw. The only way that I can judge them is if they do what I bought them for and you know what, they do, and they do it just fine.

Oh, I know if I were running a professional shop that demanded more than I do, well the story would probably be different. I suspect that the majority of member of this forum are hobbist just like myself.

An example of one of the negative things that the writer said about a Grizzly table saw was that the cranks on the life and tilt had back lash in them. Heck, so what, my little table saw has lots of it and until I read about the issue I had never given it a thought. I use a Wixely tool to square or set the angle on the blade of my saw, the backlash hardly prevents me from doing the set up.

The writer talked about "soft cast iron" tables. To my uneducated mind that's a conflict in terms, but what do I know about such things and in five years of using my cheap Craftsman TS and using a sander with 220 grit paper to keep it polished, it still works just fine and I can't detect any area in it that effects the accuracy of the cuts that I make and I am pretty picky about such things. 

I guess us poor folk will have to get along with what we can afford, We un's can't affort the the "Good Stuff".

Do you think that I'm bored with the afternoon.

Jerry


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## Check twice! (Feb 11, 2008)

I have purchased several pieces of Craftex machinery. I purchased them based on need not on price or quality. I belief the words, expensive, better, more powerful, quality, are relative to the task that is required. I believe Craftex and Grizzly are equal based on where the equipment comes from.

I believe that a tool, no matter how good or how expensive it is,,, is only as good as it's driver. 

I have had no issues with my economy tools that I purchased, because I knew ahead of time what I needed them for and they did the job.

Looking at things logically we have a diverse membership, taking in proffesional,, amature proffessional,, amature,, novice you name it I am sure it is here. Different needs require different tools.

How do we compare apples and oranges.. and I never believe everything I read,,, I have been successful with the economy tools.

Through the eyes of John,,, just my view.


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## Gaffboat (Mar 11, 2012)

Jerry, I think you hit on the key point when you say "The only way that I can judge them is if they do what I bought them for and you know what, they do, and they do it just fine."

My Porter Cable scroll saw cost less than half of what a Dewalt would cost, and the Dewalt less than half of what an Excalibur would cost. Does that mean my PC scroll saw is junk and can't be used? Nope, it is just fine for how often I use it and what I use it for.

My table saw and scroll saw combined cost less than an Excalibur scroll saw, but for what I do, they suit me just fine. Would a better scroll saw and better table saw make my projects better? I don't think so with my limited skill level. Besides as you pointed out, it is just a hobby for me not a business. 

I admit to being absolutely astounded at some of the prices of the higher end tools and I'm not sure how one justifies the expense for a hobby. I am even more amazed when I see people with really expensive tools who never seem to make anything.

So, yep, I'll just muddle along with what I can afford, having a good time making what I make, and enjoying life. The money I save on tools keeps me in Irish whiskey. Life is good. :happy:


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## fire65 (Oct 29, 2008)

I have a shop full of Grizzly tools, they get the job done and won't break you.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

I don't think there's any good stuff left . Ever since we moved all our factories to china or over seas the quality has gone downhill . I guess that's the price you pay to keep prices competitive


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## Al B Thayer (Jun 2, 2014)

Thankfully I bought a Unisaw made in USA before this cost trend hit. I remember when Griz slapped the first full page ads in all the major mags. I hate cheap tools and feel bad when someone gets talked into buying one. We all know the only reason is price. And now we have cheap Delta, Porter Cable and DeWalt tools sold in big box stores. Dumbed down to meet the price of poorly made tools. All compeating on price alone. I hate what happened to tools and all the ways they found to lower the price. Every one of them is in direct relation to fit and finish, motors, crappy bearings and poorly made castings. Look how many years Crapsman sold a table saw with a fence and miter gage that didn't even work. All translate into break downs and replacement parts. And unbeknownst to the owner a tool that actually doesn't work as well as better tools. Not to mention the plethora of threads on how to repair, find parts and align them.

Why is it that someone who loves working in wood? Someone who is talented, skilled and learned in the craft. Seeks to find the cheapest price on a tool and never believes it will hinder their work, time and sheer joy of running a fine piece of equipment? Why isn't there a sence of worth that demands "nothing less than" for me?

You can set up a fine shop for life for far less than the price of an average car. 

Al


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## lenh (Feb 27, 2009)

Al B Thayer said:


> Thankfully I bought a Unisaw made in USA before this cost trend hit. I remember when Griz slapped the first full page ads in all the major mags. I hate cheap tools and feel bad when someone gets talked into buying one. We all know the only reason is price. And now we have cheap Delta, Porter Cable and DeWalt tools sold in big box stores. Dumbed down to meet the price of poorly made tools. All compeating on price alone. I hate what happened to tools and all the ways they found to lower the price. Every one of them is in direct relation to fit and finish, motors, crappy bearings and poorly made castings. Look how many years Crapsman sold a table saw with a fence and miter gage that didn't even work. All translate into break downs and replacement parts. And unbeknownst to the owner a tool that actually doesn't work as well as better tools. Not to mention the plethora of threads on how to repair, find parts and align them.
> 
> Why is it that someone who loves working in wood? Someone who is talented, skilled and learned in the craft. Seeks to find the cheapest price on a tool and never believes it will hinder their work, time and sheer joy of running a fine piece of equipment? Why isn't there a sence of worth that demands "nothing less than" for me?
> 
> ...


What Al said. Especially about "the sheer joy of running a fine piece of equipment."

This is one of those arguments that never ends. I say to each his own. How much money one spends on a hobby is personal. No doubt a Harbor Freight table saw will cut a board in half just like a Saw Stop, PM, Jet, Hamer. For many that's all they care about.  That's fine. How many times have you heard someone say "I just bought a ???? at Harbor Freight and it only cost..." Cost seems to be the driving force for most folks these days. If that makes you happy then you made the right choice.

As a hobbyist one can never justify the cost of their tools - from an economical point of view. It's just for fun and/or relaxation. How do you justify using a $2000 table saw, a $250 router in a $400 router table with a $350 router lift, and a couple of $20 router bits to make a picture frame you can buy at Hobby Lobby for $3.95?


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## Fraise (May 19, 2012)

<<As a hobbyist one can never justify the cost of their tools - from an economical point of view. It's just for fun and/or relaxation. How do you justify using a $2000 table saw, a $250 router in a $400 router table with a $350 router lift, and a couple of $20 router bits to make a picture frame you can buy at Hobby Lobby for $3.95?>>
Difficult. But if you remodel the kitchen the Missus will give you a laissez passer


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## Willway (Aug 16, 2012)

I have admit have an old Grizzly saw, several Craftsman, some Porter cable, Dewalt, Milwaukee, and Harbor Freight tools. I have been in home shops where someone had all of the finest and had no idea of how to even build a pair of sawhorses. But they still enjoyed themselves. What I am trying to say is there is no relationship between skill and the quality of your tools. It is different when you run a business and making a living with your tools. You have tax write offs that can pay for top of the line equipment, if you have a good bookkeeper. I have been there and done that. 

By the way Jerry you would have enjoyed being in the shop in that 100 degree heat with us this afternoon.. Caleb (my great grandson who is 15) said he was getting a bad case of the 'swamp nuts' as he called it.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

RainMan1 said:


> I don't think there's any good stuff left


horse hockey...


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

Fraise said:


> <<As a hobbyist one can never justify the cost of their tools - from an economical point of view. It's just for fun and/or relaxation. How do you justify using a $2000 table saw, a $250 router in a $400 router table with a $350 router lift, and a couple of $20 router bits to make a picture frame you can buy at Hobby Lobby for $3.95?>>
> Difficult. But if you remodel the kitchen the Missus will give you a laissez passer



John,
My thinking is that when a hobbist buys high end tools, iit's like buying a new car. There is no reason to buy a brand new car unless you just want one. You can buy a low mileage used car for considerably less money than the new one, buying a brand new car, in my opinion, like buying high end tools, is a luxury and there is nothing wroing with that if that is what turns your crank. Just my thinking and why I spend money on some tools that I don't really need as a hobbist. What is hight end to one person may not be hight end for another. When I read the negative stuff about the Grizzly products it just got me to thinking about some things that I had never thought of before and got me to start this thread.

Jerry


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## tooler2 (Aug 11, 2012)

When I was a kid we could not afford conventional power tools, I would drool over the craftsman catalogue and dream. Now I have enough industrial machines to equip several shops, mainly because they are so cheap. Once you have used industrial equipment it is difficult to go back to tools that were made as cheaply as possible.Many of my machines would sell for about 25000 new but can be acquired for a few hundred dollars. These machines were built to last indefinitely and be adjustable to work flawlessly and with a ''price no object''build quality rather than produced as cheaply as possible.
Rob


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

tooler2 said:


> When I was a kid we could not afford conventional power tools, I would drool over the craftsman catalogue and dream. Now I have enough industrial machines to equip several shops, mainly because they are so cheap. Once you have used industrial equipment it is difficult to go back to tools that were made as cheaply as possible.Many of my machines would sell for about 25000 new but can be acquired for a few hundred dollars. These machines were built to last indefinitely and be adjustable to work flawlessly and with a ''price no object''build quality rather than produced as cheaply as possible.
> Rob


Rob,'

Kind of like other things such as rifles. For years I was intrigued with factory rifles and worked them to make them shoot as well as I could get them to shoot, but after shooting custom made benchrest rifles, I wouldn't croos the stree to look at at the best factory rifle made today, I have zero interest in them, they are mass produced and shoot accordingly, but and the main point, they work well for what they were made for, few people need the accuracy provided by a custom benchrest rifle and few people really need the virtures of industrial woodworking machine, but they sure must be nice, I can only imagine. 

Jerry


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## Tagwatts (Apr 11, 2012)

*Cheaper vs expensive tools*

I was an auto maniac for many years. I taught auto destruction at the high school level for 35 years. I used "cheaper tools" and expensive tools when teaching. Three things, as a teacher I learned. 1. Cheap tools seemed to get the job done as needed. 2. expensive tools will break. 3. The most expensive tool, is the tool, you do not have at the time you need to get the job done.

I am not a professional woodworker, and barely a novice at best. I do not know if they are expensive tools or not that I have. I have tried to stay with the Ridgid Brand. I can afford these and they have a great warranty program. That said, I also live close to a Home Depot Store. They seem to do what I have needed. 

My wife and family have not been too critical of my work and these are the only people I have please.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

Tagwatts1 said:


> I was an auto maniac for many years. I taught auto destruction at the high school level for 35 years. I used "cheaper tools" and expensive tools when teaching. Three things, as a teacher I learned. 1. Cheap tools seemed to get the job done as needed. 2. expensive tools will break. 3. The most expensive tool, is the tool, you do not have at the time you need to get the job done.
> 
> I am not a professional woodworker, and barely a novice at best. I do not know if they are expensive tools or not that I have. I have tried to stay with the Ridgid Brand. I can afford these and they have a great warranty program. That said, I also live close to a Home Depot Store. They seem to do what I have needed.
> 
> My wife and family have not been too critical of my work and these are the only people I have please.


Frank I've heard different opinions on this one . I talked to a retired mechanic and he doesn't use anything but snapon .
The reason , as when he used a cheap socket it expanded and damaged the bolt . At which point he had to spend an hour labor trying to extract the bolt out of the engine .
So he says if your a mechanic buy the best .
I can't justify snapon so I use napa ultra pro and a lot of westward


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

Hmph, can't much relate with anyone with a $700 table saw calling themselves 'poor folk'. My bench saw ran me $78 years ago, and I had to scratch a bit to come up with that much. In fact I don't think I've got $700 sunk into all my tools total. I don't consider myself poor, I've seen poor folk, and I'm doing quite a bit better than that, but still got to watch my money spending. Poor folk you ain't.


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## phillip.c (Aug 9, 2012)

I just bought a jointer!

It's a 6'' model. I wanted a 16'' model. Got it on craigs list for 220$ delivered. 

The brand is called "Geetech". Ever heard of it? I didn't. I looked it up. Apparently, Geetech is a manufacturing company pretty well known by some of the other brands.

I would be a bit foolish to believe the opinions of the following writer wholesale, but I think there's some truth here:

20″ Planers: Powermatic, Grizzly And Others All Made By Geetech. Who Knew? | WunderWoods

I also just bought a grizzly table saw. I'm very pleased.


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

JOAT said:


> Hmph, can't much relate with anyone with a $700 table saw calling themselves 'poor folk'. My bench saw ran me $78 years ago, and I had to scratch a bit to come up with that much. In fact I don't think I've got $700 sunk into all my tools total. I don't consider myself poor, I've seen poor folk, and I'm doing quite a bit better than that, but still got to watch my money spending. Poor folk you ain't.


Poor Folk was just a term used in regard to relativity Theo. Most people that I know that do have money are also extremely thrifty, that's why they have money. I'm not one of them. 

I a have a friend that never has been married, he is extremely well off, buys what he wants but buys his clothes at the Salvation Army Store. He is extremely thirfty but not because he does not have money. He has money because he is thrifty 

I had read about the quality of a Poweramatic Band Saw for $4,200, sure sounded like a great machine, but I can't justify one in my shop as it is just a hobby, the writer had gone on to bad mouth the Grizzly line of machines. My experience with Grizzly products is that they perform just great for my use as seems to be the consensus of other member of the forum that own them.

I am not a seasoned woodworker, but I have become a tool junky and I enjoy buying nice tools and learning touse them, by nice I don't mean the very best and most expensive. I am sure that I don't actually really need them but at the same time I don't just have to have a woodworking shop at all, it's a hobby, an enjoyment, and fills my time. I'd like to be able to buy anything I wanted, but I can't and if I could, I couldn't justify spending the money. 

I suspect that, except for the people on this forum that make their living at woodworking, I'm about like the majority of the membes as far as why I like wood working, we spend accordering to our pocket book to some extent, but more than that, we probably spend according to what we feel we need to spend in accordance to what we feel we need to accomplish or what we wish to accomplish. 

I have a neighbor friend that certainly is not poor, but he prides himself on his ability to get by and make due with what he has and I admire him for this talent, I suppose that the phrase, "Different Strokes Fof Different Folks" is applicable here huh. 

Jerry


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## Al B Thayer (Jun 2, 2014)

Fraise said:


> <<As a hobbyist one can never justify the cost of their tools - from an economical point of view. It's just for fun and/or relaxation. How do you justify using a $2000 table saw, a $250 router in a $400 router table with a $350 router lift, and a couple of $20 router bits to make a picture frame you can buy at Hobby Lobby for $3.95?>>
> Difficult. But if you remodel the kitchen the Missus will give you a laissez passer


I can justify using a $2000 table saw due auto the fact that I have been cutting with the best saw for over 25 years without a single repair. 25 years of accurate cuts, pure joy.

Why sell yourself short? Are you worth it?


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## Al B Thayer (Jun 2, 2014)

Jerry Bowen said:


> Poor Folk was just a term used in regard to relativity Theo. Most people that I know that do have money are also extremely thrifty, that's why they have money. I'm not one of them.
> 
> I a have a friend that never has been married, he is extremely well off, buys what he wants but buys his clothes at the Salvation Army Store. He is extremely thirfty but not because he does not have money. He has money because he is thrifty
> 
> ...


Jerry
Really good woodworking tools don't cost a lot. They are an investment. I bought most of my good tools when I was poor. Three tools that you must pay good money for. Table saw, jointer, and planer. Next wave of tools you can't afford to cheat on. Router, some hand tools, a really good ROS and sharpening system. When you look at the big picture and the fact that your going to use these tools for your whole life and then hand them down or sell them. The total cost doesn't add up to the price of a single car. And we all buy several of those. I just don't understand the thought process.

Al


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

Al B Thayer said:


> I can justify using a $2000 table saw due auto the fact that I have been cutting with the best saw for over 25 years without a single repair. 25 years of accurate cuts, pure joy.
> 
> Why sell yourself short? Are you worth it?


Len,

Twenty five years ago $2,000 was a lot more money than it is today of course, so it followes that you purchased the saw because you either needed it or you just wanted it, either reason is as good as the other.

I just ordered a $180 band saw blade, don't need, just want it. Hope it performs for me to the level that I have in mind like your saw has.

Jerry


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Lenh said it for me. I'm just a hobbyist, not yet making furniture, just case work and a few boxes at this point. Fortuately, my income has allowed me to buy a certain number of really nice tools, but I haven't gone overboard. I live not far from Laguna tools in Irvine, CA. Went with a friend to buy a band saw for his business and looked over their entire line up to 18 inch machines. Astonishing quality at every turn. Great American made motors, quality control that is very very tight, bearings that will hold up for many years, tables that are really flat, attention to detail that comes from engineers who actually work with wood. I own their fusion table saw, which I consider the best mid priced saw out there (after a lot of research), and the more I looked at the SawStop and several other brands, the better the fusion saw looked. My saw's table is flat as heck, checked with a good straight edge, and the fit and finish when you dig around inside is amazing. Same with choice of router. Looked at everything available around here and the construction of the Bosch 1617 was far better than the competitors. So I want the very best that I can afford, and search more diligently now than ever to compare, read reviews-including the good and bad. I guess what I'm saying is that there are some tools that need to be top of the line, others that if you fiddle enough with them, the'll work. But I don't want to go back to my Delta contractor saw or other under powered, low quality tools because even though I'm a hobbyist, I want my projects to look great, and I want to enjoy using great gear that isn't sloppy, poorly engineered or that I have to fiddle with to get an acceptable result. To each his own, but that 's how I feel about it.


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

Al B Thayer said:


> Jerry
> Really good woodworking tools don't cost a lot. They are an investment. I bought most of my good tools when I was poor. Three tools that you must pay good money for. Table saw, jointer, and planer. Next wave of tools you can't afford to cheat on. Router, some hand tools, a really good ROS and sharpening system. When you look at the big picture and the fact that your going to use these tools for your whole life and then hand them down or sell them. The total cost doesn't add up to the price of a single car. And we all buy several of those. I just don't understand the thought process.
> 
> Al


Al,
I'm surprised at you, haven't your figured out that I started this thread for the heck of it to see what kind of response I'd get, I'm boree, it's to hot to be in the shop, 103 degrees out there right now, I needed something to do.

So far, I've gotten aomw really interesting response. By the way, I certainly agree with your post.

Jerry


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## Barry747 (Jun 16, 2011)

A lesson I learned early in life was: "If you can't buy the best, buy the best you can afford." Now, a lifetime later, I have modified that especially for tools. I say: "If you can't buy the best, buy the best you can afford for the job that needs to be done." If I'm going to be making jewelry boxes for my granddaughters I really don't need a $2,500 table saw. Then again, will a $100 big box special give me precise enough cuts? If, in some alternate universe, the answer was yes, I'd go with the $100 special. In the real world I'd find one between the two extremes balancing cost vs quality of cut and ease of use.

I once worked for a guy (he owned the company) who truly believed that the most expensive was the best. In a restaurant he'd order the most expensive wine on the wine list since, in his thinking, it had to be the best. He couldn't understand the concept of "the best is what you like best". I believe this is as true with tools as with wine. Just my opinion.


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## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

Al B Thayer said:


> I can justify using a $2000 table saw due auto the fact that I have been cutting with the best saw for over 25 years without a single repair. 25 years of accurate cuts, pure joy.
> 
> Why sell yourself short? Are you worth it?


I can say the same thing(well 18 years anyway) about my Grizzly G1023Z! Only spent $1000. I am relatively sure it will still be working fine after another 18 years... probably better than I will be by that time!

Would my work be any better or more enjoyable with a more expensive saw? I don't think so. Really cheap tools can indeed take both the joy and accuracy out of any job, but the most expensive tools are not always required, either.

Joy is largely a state of mind... convince yourself that you absolutely *must* have the "best" and yes you can be very unhappy with very adequate equipment. 

My joy comes from the skills I develop, and the things I make, not from the misguided thought that I have the best tool available. That tends to change frequently anyway.

Many times my most joy comes from finding a way to do the job at hand with the tools at hand, rather than going and buying a new expensive specialized tool.:yes4: Solving a problem gives me way more joy than throwing money at a problem. Granted it is nice to have a new toy once in a while and even necessary sometimes.

If having the "best" tool is what makes you happy, go for it! Keeps a lot of people broke, and keeps the manufactures selling, but does little for craftsmanship!


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## Tagwatts (Apr 11, 2012)

*Not to argue*

Rainman 1 

You are exactly right in what you said. When I mechanic-ed on my own, I wanted to use the best tools I could get. That was working on someone else's vehicular for which I was getting paid to do. I had to use good tools to get the job done properly. 

However, that being said, I was an auto destruction teacher in a high school. Now you are dealing with a whole different type of animal. Most of the student used tools of a Craftsman make. I had two full sets of Snap-on tools and two full sets of Cornwall tools. These were reserved for Student Projects and Special type projects. If we did any live work, these were the tools used. 

I had beginning students and experienced and upper level students. So the tools were used as needed by the individual Students. We encouraged our students in the upper level classes to start purchasing there own tools and tool boxes. 

Thanks, Tagwatts


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## Al B Thayer (Jun 2, 2014)

DesertRatTom said:


> Lenh said it for me. I'm just a hobbyist, not yet making furniture, just case work and a few boxes at this point. Fortuately, my income has allowed me to buy a certain number of really nice tools, but I haven't gone overboard. I live not far from Laguna tools in Irvine, CA. Went with a friend to buy a band saw for his business and looked over their entire line up to 18 inch machines. Astonishing quality at every turn. Great American made motors, quality control that is very very tight, bearings that will hold up for many years, tables that are really flat, attention to detail that comes from engineers who actually work with wood. I own their fusion table saw, which I consider the best mid priced saw out there (after a lot of research), and the more I looked at the SawStop and several other brands, the better the fusion saw looked. My saw's table is flat as heck, checked with a good straight edge, and the fit and finish when you dig around inside is amazing. Same with choice of router. Looked at everything available around here and the construction of the Bosch 1617 was far better than the competitors. So I want the very best that I can afford, and search more diligently now than ever to compare, read reviews-including the good and bad. I guess what I'm saying is that there are some tools that need to be top of the line, others that if you fiddle enough with them, the'll work. But I don't want to go back to my Delta contractor saw or other under powered, low quality tools because even though I'm a hobbyist, I want my projects to look great, and I want to enjoy using great gear that isn't sloppy, poorly engineered or that I have to fiddle with to get an acceptable result. To each his own, but that 's how I feel about it.


Well said Tom.

I know I would never be able to turn out the quality of cuts and work with a cheap table saw. Has to be the last place to scrimp on quality. Never a second thought of taking on any task and never blaming the tool.


Al


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## Al B Thayer (Jun 2, 2014)

Dmeadows said:


> I can say the same thing(well 18 years anyway) about my Grizzly G1023Z! Only spent $1000. I am relatively sure it will still be working fine after another 18 years... probably better than I will be by that time!
> 
> Would my work be any better or more enjoyable with a more expensive saw? I don't think so. Really cheap tools can indeed take both the joy and accuracy out of any job, but the most expensive tools are not always required, either.
> 
> ...


To be clear. For me. "Best tools" are not the beyond reason priced tools. Nor are they industrial tools. Box store tools, including tools sold next to the bras and panties. Are in the same price range and quality. Then there is the better quality class. Which cost much more than box store tools. Can't make a comparison between the two. Price and quality are usually double. So is power and capacity. 

Tools from any country in Europe get slapped with costs not associated with the quality of the tool. High taxes, vat, and exchange rate are all in the bottom line. Along with non Asian, non USA union wages and the benefits that make a CEO envy. Your paying for that. A $500 router from Germany costs you $135 just on the exchange rate alone. This is one of the biggest reasons we don't see many of the really good tools from the UK too. They can't compete. 

In Sweden if you quit your job to go back to school. The government pays you 90% of the wage you were earning at the time for two years. Sales tax there is around 37%. Someone has to make up these costs. Did you really think routers made in Europe were 4 time as good as PC, DeWalt and Bosch? Okay, and who picked these colors?

They are great tools and for sure your never going to see them in the box stores or next to the bras and panties.

Al


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

Al B Thayer said:


> To be clear. For me. "Best tools" are not the beyond reason priced tools. Nor are they industrial tools. Box store tools, including tools sold next to the bras and panties. Are in the same price range and quality. Then there is the better quality class. Which cost much more than box store tools. Can't make a comparison between the two. Price and quality are usually double. So is power and capacity.
> 
> Tools from any country in Europe get slapped with costs not associated with the quality of the tool. High taxes, vat, and exchange rate are all in the bottom line. Along with non Asian, non USA union wages and the benefits that make a CEO envy. Your paying for that. A $500 router from Germany costs you $135 just on the exchange rate alone. This is one of the biggest reasons we don't see many of the really good tools from the UK too. They can't compete.
> 
> ...


Al,
An extremely good bit of information to throw out for us to remember and/or or consider in regard to the subject matter of this thread. Very written by the way, thanks for your input on the matter.

Jerry


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## Al B Thayer (Jun 2, 2014)

Tagwatts1 said:


> Rainman 1
> 
> You are exactly right in what you said. When I mechanic-ed on my own, I wanted to use the best tools I could get. That was working on someone else's vehicular for which I was getting paid to do.  I had to use good tools to get the job done properly.
> 
> ...


While I know Snapon tools are better than Crapsman. There isn't much you can change on a wrench to gain a big price difference like there is on a table saw. Very easy for manufactureers to use cheap bearings and motors unbeknownst to the buyer. 

Also Snapon distribution is through a commissioned sales staff. Which does push the price too.

Al


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## Al B Thayer (Jun 2, 2014)

Jerry Bowen said:


> Al,
> An extremely good bit of information to throw out for us to remember and/or or consider in regard to the subject matter of this thread. Very written by the way, thanks for your input on the matter.
> 
> Jerry


New here Jerry. Looking for the thank button.

Al


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## MikeMa (Jul 27, 2006)

A couple comments:
1. Grizzly tools are great for the hobbyist and small production shops. Like any brand of tools, they have a few products that they have hit a home run with, and at the opposite end a few stinkers. The majority of them are somewhere in the middle, and get the job done. Do your homework on what you are going to buy, and you will be fine.

2. I know this is going to upset some, but I am going to say it anyway. The location of where the tool is made no longer is an indicator of the quality of the tool. That said, I do try to buy American made as much as possible, but back to my point on #1, I do my homework, and I buy what is going to be the best bang for my buck. I bought a tool from a company that still manufactures in the U.S. a couple years ago. The fit and finish of it was awful, so much so that the design flaws caused a very premature demise. I ended up buy the Craftsman, made in Taiwan, version to replace it. The new one by far is better made. Don't get me wrong, I have tools from Lie-Nielsen, Micro-Jig, Incra, Woodpecker, and a few others that are all made in the U.S., as well as Veritas from Canada, and they are all well made tools. The quality comes down to the degree of quality control the company invests in, where both good and bad quality control happens all over the globe.


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## phillip.c (Aug 9, 2012)

NiceG316 said:


> A couple comments:
> 2. I know this is going to upset some, but I am going to say it anyway. The location of where the tool is made no longer is an indicator of the quality of the tool...


I also don't care where the tool was made. It's all about customer reviews. The Chinese are capable of making good tools and care just as much about balancing quality and price. People won't buy products that break on first use. Foreigners know this.


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

Al B Thayer said:


> While I know Snapon tools are better than Crapsman. There isn't much you can change on a wrench to gain a big price difference like there is on a table saw. Very easy for manufactureers to use cheap bearings and motors unbeknownst to the buyer.
> 
> Also Snapon distribution is through a commissioned sales staff. Which does push the price too.
> 
> ...


The fact that the sales person shows up at the workplace is a powerful marketing approach. If a Crapsman sales person showed up at the work place they would sell a lot of tools to because they would beat Snapon's price, and like you say Al, what can you do to a open end wrench, besides wear it out.

Jerry


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## WatsonComeHere (Aug 13, 2014)

Guess my Ryobi BT3000 table saw, my new(ish) Grizzly (Sheppach, Shop Fox, branded whatever) track saw would fit into the discussion of the "low cost" and lowly regarded tools. 

I'm not sure how much straighter or easier a Festool TS55 would have cut the 8+ sheets plywood I've cut over the past few weekends than my Grizzly. HD had 3/4 maple ply for $42/sheet, but even still, it would have been some expensive mistakes!

I've never so much as seen, in person, a festool TS55, let alone actually used one. But my $250 Grizzly setup worked exceptionally well as long as I took the time to measure twice and cut once. I'm actually very pleased with how this setup works! (and by the way, the $250 includes the saw, THREE track sections and an Olshun blade). 

My Ryobi BT3000 has not failed me yet in any project I've done (granted there haven't been many). It fits in my space challenged "shop," and it does the job every time I ask it to. Cuts straight. 

My first "major" powertool was a 10" craftsman compound miter saw. It has worked as it should for the better part of 18 years (and has probably been used more than any other tool I own). 

Recently I splurged. I bought a Triton Plunge Router, and then went hog wild and picked up Incra's 24x36 table top, and the LS17 positioner. While I haven't got to use the table portion, yet. The Triton far exceeds the experiences I've had with my fixed base craftsman routers. I probably ought to sell those on the bay or something, because I don't ever see myself using them again.


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## Al B Thayer (Jun 2, 2014)

WatsonComeHere said:


> Guess my Ryobi BT3000 table saw, my new(ish) Grizzly (Sheppach, Shop Fox, branded whatever) track saw would fit into the discussion of the "low cost" and lowly regarded tools.
> 
> I'm not sure how much straighter or easier a Festool TS55 would have cut the 8+ sheets plywood I've cut over the past few weekends than my Grizzly. HD had 3/4 maple ply for $42/sheet, but even still, it would have been some expensive mistakes!
> 
> ...


Sounds like your upset. You just need to put it into a different mind set. Good move on your part for moving up and out of the Crapsman world. Let someone else deal with repairs and constant adjustments.

You can't compare the Fe$tool with Griz. There are many costs associated with Fe$tool that don't add to the quality of the tool but greatly raise the price. But there are tools in the Griz class that can compete. You shopped price and bought solely on price. It's the same for anyone that buys a Griz tool. In no way did you purchase it because it has features that are better than other tools. Griz hasn't made a single tool of their own design since their birth. They copy other tools, find ways to cut the cost and sell them to the guy that just can't help from buying on price. This has worked well for them. Seems they know their market.

I don't believe tool companies can make tools cheaper in price without cutting the quality somewhere. For me personally sometimes I forgo the worry and buy a cheap tool. Most times for large tools I don't. I bought a cheap Ridgid router. I really like it but don't have high expectations it will last like my PC routers going on 30 years.

Al


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## WatsonComeHere (Aug 13, 2014)

Upset? Nope. I'm quite happy with what I have. 

Just reinforcing the point, from my experience, of not having to spend the most money on tools to get the end results. 

I know when I get all of my stuff out, and turn it on, it brings me a lot of pleasure and satisfaction, which is what it is all about, yes? 

Perhaps one day I will upgrade my table saw to something more substantial. I am hoping at that time, it makes me say, "WOW!" and leaves me totally impressed. But I don't have a serious case of tool envy right now. I'm quite happy, and quite grateful I've been able to add to my collection as I have the past few years.

I didn't even put the harbor freight goodies on the list. They were purchased for a specific job in my remodel, and one of them (the little multi tool) has become a well used part of my arsenal for various projects around the house. Their version of the reciprocating saw was purchased for one specific job...I thought I could spend $20 and use it once and not worry about it later....I've used it a few more times than once.


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

Question for Al,

In your most recent post you said that your PC router is over 30 years old. I a recent post, and I don't recall who posted it just now, the person posted said the the way to tell an older model from the newer ones that are no longer made in the USA, is that the on/off switch on the newer ones have a cover over them.

My 890 series was purchased about four years ago and I had just assumed that it was one that was no longer made in the USA. Maybe it was yourself that posted on the matter, but whateve, do you have any thinking on this point. I had not been happy with the router when mounted in my table, which I have stated several times on this forum. It had to do with the base, but the motor and chuck all work well when the motor is installed a lift. I'd like to discover that the router is one that was made in the USA, but oh well, just wondering.

Jerry


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## Artemix (Aug 10, 2014)

Try living in Argentina.. not only we have a _very _limited arrange of products available here, but their price is ridiculously high, something that costs in USA 300 bucks here costs 850, and not only that, but that 850 bucks here is a average salary.

Do the math... sucks. Thankfully I've got a good job that also gives me free time to work in this as a hobbyist, and I can buy one or two of these nice things each month... but still.. for example, if I want to buy a Kreg Jig, forget it, impossible to get one here. That also applies to several other things, there are whole brands that here are science fiction.

Rant over


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## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

Neal, you make a good point!. Even a Festool will not fix wrong measurements. Without some skill, forethought, craftsmanship, one can make wrong,bad cuts with any tool.

Likewise a true craftsman can get get good results without the expensive tool. Kinda what craftsmanship is all about.


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

Artemix said:


> Try living in Argentina.. not only we have a _very _limited arrange of products available here, but their price is ridiculously high, something that costs in USA 300 bucks here costs 850, and not only that, but that 850 bucks here is a average salary.
> 
> Do the math... sucks. Thankfully I've got a good job that also gives me free time to work in this as a hobbyist, and I can buy one or two of these nice things each month... but still.. for example, if I want to buy a Kreg Jig, forget it, impossible to get one here. That also applies to several other things, there are whole brands that here are science fiction.
> 
> Rant over


I have to wonder if a US citizen can send you a gift, what is the duty, the exchange rate, postage etc. I suspect that you have investigated this but just wondering.

Jerry


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## Al B Thayer (Jun 2, 2014)

Jerry Bowen said:


> Question for Al,
> 
> In your most recent post you said that your PC router is over 30 years old. I a recent post, and I don't recall who posted it just now, the person posted said the the way to tell an older model from the newer ones that are no longer made in the USA, is that the on/off switch on the newer ones have a cover over them.
> 
> ...


Jerry
I can't say for sure on the 890. I don't own one that big. I was referring to the 690 on if it was a new model or an old model not if it was made in the US or not. Newer models have a dust cover over the switch. When looking at used 690s. If it has the cover I pass.

Al


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

Al B Thayer said:


> Jerry
> I can't say for sure on the 890. I don't own one that big. I was referring to the 690 on if it was a new model or an old model not if it was made in the US or not. Newer models have a dust cover over the switch. When looking at used 690s. If it has the cover I pass.
> 
> Al


I don't have the cover.

Jerry


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## Artemix (Aug 10, 2014)

Jerry Bowen said:


> I have to wonder if a US citizen can send you a gift, what is the duty, the exchange rate, postage etc. I suspect that you have investigated this but just wondering.
> 
> Jerry


It would get stuck in customs forever or stolen.

Almost the only thing that can enter the country without any issues are books.


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