# Table saw kickback using a fence



## RiovistaAndy (Feb 20, 2019)

I just read something that I never heard or experienced. It claims that when ripping a piece the wood can warp toward the fence and can cause kickback.
They advised to use a block clamped to the fence that extends no further than just after the blade. This will allow for the warpage to not bind and push the stock over against the blade.
I don't see how you can rip very precise with this method.
Has anybody heard of this before?


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## kp91 (Sep 10, 2004)

I use that method for cross cuts, not ripping. For ripping I use a splitter, and make sure that the fence is properly aligned with the blade


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## RiovistaAndy (Feb 20, 2019)

kp91 said:


> I use that method for cross cuts, not ripping. For ripping I use a splitter, and make sure that the fence is properly aligned with the blade


I also use it for cross cuts as it allows me to set it as a jig. Plus I don't use a fence and miter at the same time for a through cut. I also use a riving knife when ever I can.
That said. The artical stated that the short fence piece was needed in addition to the riving/splitter.
Oh well, I'll just keep doing it as I was trained.


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## mgmine (Jan 16, 2012)

These are expensive but worth the price. Not only do they prevent kickback they also hold the wood tight to the fence to keep things from moving around.









Clear-Cut TS™ Stock Guides


Description The Clear-Cut TS™ Stock Guides for your table saw offer superior control of your work achieving safer, smoother and more precise cuts with your work held securely in position. Unique guide rollers mounted on a 5° angle effectively steering your stock towards your fence. This...




jessem.com


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## Rebelwork Woodworking (Sep 11, 2004)

Some fences won't like the Beisemeyer, but the unifence, altendorf fences, etc will adjust back and allow only a percentage before or after the blade. 

Maple is really bad about this. I had a perfectly straight board 5" wide ripped down to 2" and get all twisted out of shape...


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## RÖENTGEEP (Feb 18, 2014)

Here there are some comments about this topic.










Re: Long Fence vs Short Fence on Table Saw


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## RiovistaAndy (Feb 20, 2019)

RÖENTGEEP said:


> Here there are some comments about this topic.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It seem's this problem has been recognized for many years. I appreciate all the information. One thing I noticed was the tendency for some to rip the cut with the narrow side toward the fence. I was always told this is improper and could lead to the thin piece being shot out backwards. Is this wrong? And should I start ripping in this fashion?


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## Mike_C (Jul 11, 2020)

RiovistaAndy said:


> It seem's this problem has been recognized for many years. I appreciate all the information. One thing I noticed was the tendency for some to rip the cut with the narrow side toward the fence. I was always told this is improper and could lead to the thin piece being shot out backwards. Is this wrong? And should I start ripping in this fashion?


I have a full size sliding euro type with an altendrof style fence. I use a riving knife and/or just stick a wooden wedge when i cut any substantial length or thickness of "real" wood. Havent felt the issue that you discuss.....but maybe it has to do with the fact that these large euro style machines are super powerful so with the riving knife in place i just plow through
M


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## Rebelwork Woodworking (Sep 11, 2004)

RiovistaAndy said:


> It seem's this problem has been recognized for many years. I appreciate all the information. One thing I noticed was the tendency for some to rip the cut with the narrow side toward the fence. I was always told this is improper and could lead to the thin piece being shot out backwards. Is this wrong? And should I start ripping in this fashion?


You were told wrong...shops run numerous pieces of scribe and edging this way...

Something you read off the internet?


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## Mike_C (Jul 11, 2020)

the side between the blade and the fence is the side that the fence is calibrated to....so, assuming you have a well calibrated tablesaw - as @Rebelwork Woodworking said - you would rip thin strips this way.
of course if the strips you rip are REALLY thin - you need some sort of zero clearance throat plate and a suitable pushblock

M


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## RiovistaAndy (Feb 20, 2019)

Rebelwork Woodworking said:


> You were told wrong...shops run numerous pieces of scribe and edging this way...
> 
> Something you read off the internet?


I may well have been told wrong. The idea of the thinner cut being between the blade and fence makes sense to me if you need to saw several pieces the same width as you do not need to reset the fence after each cut.
That all said I'll stick with doing it the way I described. Besides most times it would make using hold downs or feather boards easier, not to forget, push sticks.


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## Rebelwork Woodworking (Sep 11, 2004)

On scribe we cut half and flip over. 

You have to do what is comfortable to you..


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

A long time ago, I had a piece of ply that was a little warped. The blade caught it and shot it at me at about 100 mph. Right in the solar plexis. Hurt like hell for a long time. 

Take the time to set your fence correctly to the blade, and the blade to the miter slots. I keep my biesmeyer type fence adjusted about 4/1000 ths out, away from the blade. I also keep a riving knife in the saw for almost all cuts. The riving knife keeps the cut lined up with the blade and keeps it from closing up or shifting. When the wood shifts, the blade coming up from the rear catches the warped wood and shoots it at you.

I don't like to trap the piece between fence and blade, once struck, twice shy. For narrow strips, I have a jig that sits just in front of the blade, The jig sets the width of the cut, and I put the wood in and position the fence. Yes, I move the fence, but I feel safer doing that. I often need these narrow strips to set an adequate thickness rabbet to hold a canvas frame. Frame material is often thin on the inside edge, so strips make for a really nice look. 

That's my preference, but certainly not the only way to get good results.


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## RiovistaAndy (Feb 20, 2019)

DesertRatTom said:


> A long time ago, I had a piece of ply that was a little warped. The blade caught it and shot it at me at about 100 mph. Right in the solar plexis. Hurt like hell for a long time.
> 
> Take the time to set your fence correctly to the blade, and the blade to the miter slots. I keep my biesmeyer type fence adjusted about 4/1000 ths out, away from the blade. I also keep a riving knife in the saw for almost all cuts. The riving knife keeps the cut lined up with the blade and keeps it from closing up or shifting. When the wood shifts, the blade coming up from the rear catches the warped wood and shoots it at you.
> 
> ...


As my newest saw is a used one and the idiot tossed the old riving knife I ordered a manufactured one. I know I could have made one. But liability insurance is a good thing. Plus the saw manufacturer no longer sells a replacement.
Before I had a saw with a riving knife or splitter I used to always stand off to the fence side to avoid being impaled.
I like your idea for a jig. I'll look into that.


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## MYB506 (Dec 5, 2012)

One of best things I like about my Stopsaw is the anti-kickback pawls on the spreader. It's impossible to get kick back with the pawls that only allow the wood to go in one direction.


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## Rebelwork Woodworking (Sep 11, 2004)

The problems in cabinet shops is once those pieces are cut they need to have the same thickness for the overhead sander otherwise you can burn the belt


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## Rebelwork Woodworking (Sep 11, 2004)

MYB506 said:


> One of best things I like about my Stopsaw is the anti-kickback pawls on the spreader. It's impossible to get kick back with the pawls that only allow the wood to go in one direction.


We don't use them as they cause problems or mark the wood


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## Rebelwork Woodworking (Sep 11, 2004)

Your going to find answers different between hobby and professional woodworkers.


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## RiovistaAndy (Feb 20, 2019)

Rebelwork Woodworking said:


> Your going to find answers different between hobby and professional woodworkers.


It's not the workers. It's the machinery. The professional shops are trying very hard to eliminate incontinence that humans, no matter how good bring to the shop floor. 
In other words automation is leading the way.


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## Rebelwork Woodworking (Sep 11, 2004)

Automation has been around a long time since the early 80's. This is why the Chinese have been beating us up for years.
They spend countless hours trying to evolve with production while Americans ARe at the beach on Saturday..

Americans got a lil too confortable. ..


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Rebelwork Woodworking said:


> Americans got a lil too confortable. ..


That happened in a lot of fields and manufacturing. Not to get too political, but our new President has managed in 100 days to send jobs back to China. Guess the Chinese bribes worked.


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## Rebelwork Woodworking (Sep 11, 2004)

I watched a video from China making finger joint boards. Pieces, 8"-16" being made into longer boards. This was several years ago. The next week I talked to Jeff Gray , owner of Jakobe fiurniture. We were making table for restaurants out of 8/4 material. Hickory, walnut, ash, oak, etc. We were throwing wood away 24" and smaller. It made sense. Taking table scraps and producing lower priced, more affordable tables. Another employee brought the same thing up.

It got ignored. While we passed on the idea, the Chinese found ot profitable. ..

This what an American company found as useless and threw away..


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## Rebelwork Woodworking (Sep 11, 2004)

Ja kobe furniture has shut down because of Covid. As large as Jakobe was they could have perused other adventure with the finger joint. They could have perused other accounts with Lowes Home depot or Menards...

Jakobe had two large paint booths. With commercial not allowing finishing in buildngs now, they could have started using the booths for pre finishing. 

A lot of times if a company doesn't have options , they have to create options to stay affloat..


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## RiovistaAndy (Feb 20, 2019)

Rebelwork Woodworking said:


> Automation has been around a long time since the early 80's. This is why the Chinese have been beating us up for years.
> They spend countless hours trying to evolve with production while Americans ARe at the beach on Saturday..
> 
> Americans got a lil too confortable. ..


Your very right on that. A few decades ago the Made In China tag pretty much stood for cheap junk. Now their QC/QA efforts are bearing fruit. Same with Taiwan, although Taiwan started earlier.


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## RiovistaAndy (Feb 20, 2019)

Rebelwork Woodworking said:


> Ja kobe furniture has shut down because of Covid. As large as Jakobe was they could have perused other adventure with the finger joint. They could have perused other accounts with Lowes Home depot or Menards...
> 
> Jakobe had two large paint booths. With commercial not allowing finishing in buildngs now, they could have started using the booths for pre finishing.
> 
> A lot of times if a company doesn't have options , they have to create options to stay affloat..


Finger joints of soft wood have been around for decades with good success in areas that are not visable or are painted. Throwing away <24" is extreamly short sighted especially now with lumber prices going through the roof.
Why do you say that commercial woodworking cannot use spray booths for finish coat? Doesn't make sense if they can spray primer coats.


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## Rebelwork Woodworking (Sep 11, 2004)

.....


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## Rebelwork Woodworking (Sep 11, 2004)

RiovistaAndy said:


> Finger joints of soft wood have been around for decades with good success in areas that are not visable or are painted. Throwing away <24" is extreamly short sighted especially now with lumber prices going through the roof.
> Why do you say that commercial woodworking cannot use spray booths for finish coat? Doesn't make sense if they can spray primer coats.


Commercial buildings...

Some restaurants won't approve gpfinger joints. But many will with a reduction in cost. Even trash cost money. 

I had mentioned a commercial shop on the wast cost using shop scraps to heat like 80% of there buiding..ignored,.


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## Rebelwork Woodworking (Sep 11, 2004)

This is just off the CNC I one day..


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## RiovistaAndy (Feb 20, 2019)

Rebelwork Woodworking said:


> Commercial buildings...
> 
> Some restaurants won't approve gpfinger joints. But many will with a reduction in cost. Even trash cost money.
> 
> I had mentioned a commercial shop on the wast cost using shop scraps to heat like 80% of there buiding..ignored,.


I missed the part about partial heating of their shop. Now that's a good use.
Sorry I misread you on the commercial aspect. I wonder why some restaurants don't want fingerjointed wood. Is it for the look of the finished pieces?


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## qulevrius (Mar 18, 2019)

RiovistaAndy said:


> Your very right on that. A few decades ago the Made In China tag pretty much stood for cheap junk. Now their QC/QA efforts are bearing fruit. Same with Taiwan, although Taiwan started earlier.


I disagree, the Chinese junk is still junk. Take it from someone who had to work with their crap in the very recent past, the only thing they do “right” is make passable knockoffs of higher quality products and “improve” their design. Cue in smartphones with built in cigarette lighters.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Rebelwork Woodworking (Sep 11, 2004)

There still beating our lazy unions... 

Many Americans buy it everyday. They don't look at where it comes from, but the price...


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## qulevrius (Mar 18, 2019)

Rebelwork Woodworking said:


> There still beating our lazy unions...
> 
> Many Americans buy it everyday. They don't look at where it comes from, but the price...


Sad, but true. Although i must say that today there’s a bigger awareness towards the country of origin. For the risk of getting political, the previous administration had it right 100% by imposing tariffs on everything Chinese, these people would lowball anyone and everyone even if it caused a financial loss. That has a lot to do with the modern history of China more than anything else, and that is something 95% of people are unaware of.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## RiovistaAndy (Feb 20, 2019)

Rebelwork Woodworking said:


> There still beating our lazy unions...
> 
> Many Americans buy it everyday. They don't look at where it comes from, but the price...


Agreed. I look at the quality before I check pricing. Plus there are a few websites that rate imports. The ones I look at seem to be upfront.


qulevrius said:


> I disagree, the Chinese junk is still junk. Take it from someone who had to work with their crap in the very recent past, the only thing they do “right” is make passable knockoffs of higher quality products and “improve” their design. Cue in smartphones with built in cigarette lighters.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If you are using a smart phone at least part of it is made in China. If it is an iPhone it's close to 90%.


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## RiovistaAndy (Feb 20, 2019)

qulevrius said:


> Sad, but true. Although i must say that today there’s a bigger awareness towards the country of origin. For the risk of getting political, the previous administration had it right 100% by imposing tariffs on everything Chinese, these people would lowball anyone and everyone even if it caused a financial loss. That has a lot to do with the modern history of China more than anything else, and that is something 95% of people are unaware of.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


One problem with the tariffs is that among those 5% almost 100% do not realize that China is not actually paying them. The importer pays them and the cost is passed on to the consumer. The prior administration would have us believe that the CCP was paying them. He should have listened to his trade experts.
Besides even Stop Saw is made in Asia as are some other quite expensive and high quality machines. Only one table saw is still made in the US, atleast I think it still is, the Unisaw.
I don't know if or when we can reverse this.


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## qulevrius (Mar 18, 2019)

RiovistaAndy said:


> Agreed. I look at the quality before I check pricing. Plus there are a few websites that rate imports. The ones I look at seem to be upfront.
> 
> If you are using a smart phone at least part of it is made in China. If it is an iPhone it's close to 90%.


The main reason is the lack of alternatives, not the great Chinese QA/QI.


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## qulevrius (Mar 18, 2019)

RiovistaAndy said:


> One problem with the tariffs is that among those 5% almost 100% do not realize that China is not actually paying them. The importer pays them and the cost is passed on to the consumer. The prior administration would have us believe that the CCP was paying them. He should have listened to his trade experts.
> Besides even Stop Saw is made in Asia as are some other quite expensive and high quality machines. Only one table saw is still made in the US, atleast I think it still is, the Unisaw.
> I don't know if or when we can reverse this.


There never was any claim that the Chinese were paying the tariffs. The tariffs in question were aimed at balancing out the pricing of domestic vs import and bring the jobs back to the CONUS. Which, speaking of, is exactly what started happening. Unfortunately, the current administration is flipping a 180 on it, as Tom very astutely pointed out.

And don’t get me started on the SawStop. The longer you participate in these forums the more you’ll notice how many people refuse to buy SawStop because of their sleaziness. The Unisaws of today are made in Taiwan (Delta doesn’t manufacture out of Tennessee anymore) same as Lagunas, Ridgids, Rikons, Grizzlys etc; the main difference is that the customer support and the QA/QI are actually US based and that is their saving grace. If you want a table saw that is 100% Hecho En ‘Merica, buy a Harvey.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

The high end Laguna band saws are made in Italy. The 14/12 is made in Taiwan. Visited their showroom a couple of times when it was nearer and learned little things, like the let the table saw and other flat table parts sit for at least 6 months before they flatten them. This relaxes the stress in the metal so they don't warp. The company owner is an engineer and doesn't put up with junk. Prices are higher, but the QC and customer service are terrific. Glad to be done with Delta these days.

I Think the tariffs are about equalizing prices with American goods because the Chinese under cut and have government subsidies that let producers get by on razor thin margins, and to shut down competitors. They sell a lot of their junkiest crap in third world countries where they underwrite dictators and pay bribes to dominate and control. A friend is a minister in Uganda, and he is not a fan of Chinese goods, but they are locked in. If something breaks in Uganda, they know it's unrepairable, so they just don't buy if they can avoid it. Puts the brake on a lot of potential enterprises.


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## qulevrius (Mar 18, 2019)

DesertRatTom said:


> The high end Laguna band saws are made in Italy. The 14/12 is made in Taiwan. Visited their showroom a couple of times when it was nearer and learned little things, like the let the table saw and other flat table parts sit for at least 6 months before they flatten them. This relaxes the stress in the metal so they don't warp. The company owner is an engineer and doesn't put up with junk. Prices are higher, but the QC and customer service are terrific. Glad to be done with Delta these days.
> 
> I Think the tariffs are about equalizing prices with American goods because the Chinese under cut and have government subsidies that let producers get by on razor thin margins, and to shut down competitors. They sell a lot of their junkiest crap in third world countries where they underwrite dictators and pay bribes to dominate and control. A friend is a minister in Uganda, and he is not a fan of Chinese goods, but they are locked in. If something breaks in Uganda, they know it's unrepairable, so they just don't buy if they can avoid it. Puts the brake on a lot of potential enterprises.


Good info on Laguna, I didn’t know that about their higher end machines. Was actually seriously considering the Fusion F2 but decided to go with the 36-451 for now, and (fingers crossed) get a SCM or a Harvey down the line.

Yup, that’s exactly what the tariffs were for. When trying to understand how the Chinese can get by with lowball prices and margin deficits, one has to remember that it all started with the Brits back in the ‘40s when Uncle Mao decided to beat them at the steel production market. Am not gonna bore anyone with history lessons, but if interested look up the Hong Weibing, the Chinese Cultural Revolution and the rest that followed.


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## wyzarddoc (Dec 31, 2006)

RiovistaAndy said:


> I just read something that I never heard or experienced. It claims that when ripping a piece the wood can warp toward the fence and can cause kickback.
> They advised to use a block clamped to the fence that extends no further than just after the blade. This will allow for the warpage to not bind and push the stock over against the blade.
> I don't see how you can rip very precise with this method.
> Has anybody heard of this before?


A friend and I were re-sawing a "kiln dried " 8" W X 4' L X 2 "T piece of cherry on a bandsaw when we were about 18" from the end of the cut a loud bang went off and the cut end I was holding popped apart about 10" between pieces from internal stress. We finished the cut and tried another piece with the same results. Moral of the story internal stresses in Kiln dried wood can be a huge problem. So warpage causing binding would not be that much different and possibly caused more by internal stress than warpage. 
Just my $0.02
Doc


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## Gary Lee (Jul 9, 2007)

Rebelwork Woodworking said:


> On scribe we cut half and flip over.
> 
> You have to do what is comfortable to you..


*Best advice you can give.*
It took me years to gain confidence in otherwise situations of cutting that were awkward/unsafe. 
A fixed full out feed table and movable in feed table will also create ease in feeding, not having to 'lift/carry' the piece, or worry of falling.
I can concentrate now on keeping the piece *tight to fence*, with a non stop flow, without burns.
I rip thin shim strips, and 1/8" +/- spline material at fence side, like said above, rip halfway then flip. And any size when a push stick would be dangerous.
And I also stand away from the potential trajectory of unguided missals when creating a rail gun. Safe vs sorry.
I use nothing behind or above the blade, because* for me*, it clutters up my work zone in my production environment, and swapping blades/dadoes..
Also rip hard maple, and know it's gonna warp. I usually cut large and re-cut easing up to size/width, watching for curves, flipping.
Been ripping plywood/hardwood since starting in the late sixties when we built the cabinets at the job site, w/table saw
that had a portable plywood folding in/out feed table, and a radial arm saw. I'm a one man production shop now, mostly industrial cabinet enclosures,
still have original ten fingers, full length. (*Thank you Lord!:*) 
I believe everyone should use the best safety equipment *they nee*d* to feel comfortable with,* that's available, 
when working around a 3-4000 RPM cutting blade just inches near the hands. Working around wood is a learned craft.


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## mike 44 (Feb 6, 2021)

RiovistaAndy said:


> I just read something that I never heard or experienced. It claims that when ripping a piece the wood can warp toward the fence and can cause kickback.
> They advised to use a block clamped to the fence that extends no further than just after the blade. This will allow for the warpage to not bind and push the stock over against the blade.
> I don't see how you can rip very precise with this method.
> Has anybody heard of this before?


Your information was correct. I set my fence 1/32" out of square to the miter slot and use a 1x3 " pine board for a short fence. 
You will rip precise, the method you were told is what I was taught 61 years ago. 
Another thing, if the boards start to warp really bad as you rip, stop ,turn off the saw and use the reaction wood for firewood. I once had to return 400 bf of maple because the first 3 pieces I ripped were reaction wood and worthless as far as lumber. I thought the entire load was probably reaction wood.
mike


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## Rebelwork Woodworking (Sep 11, 2004)

Gary Rutledge said:


> *Best advice you can give.*
> It took me years to gain confidence in otherwise situations of cutting that were awkward/unsafe.
> A fixed full out feed table and movable in feed table will also create ease in feeding, not having to 'lift/carry' the piece, or worry of falling.
> I can concentrate now on keeping the piece *tight to fence*, with a non stop flow, without burns.
> ...



I wasn't that lucky and got in the saw in 1985 at a commercial shop.


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## Gary Lee (Jul 9, 2007)

Rebelwork Woodworking said:


> I wasn't that lucky and got in the saw in 1985 at a commercial shop.
> View attachment 398416


My last 15yrs before just my shop work now, at a commercial shop I did all their cabinet shop outside installs, cabinets wood/laminate, and architectural mill-work. 
One young man on another crew had a serious mishap with learning to use a compound slide mitre saw. 
Fingers in front of the rip path. Cut all but the thumb, index hanging on by some muscle, rest on the floor.
Amazingly all were reattached, with maybe 30-40% usage.

Maybe forty years ago, my brother headed out hunting standing in the back of the pick up with his new deer rifle.
Closing the bolt with rifle aiming down, it went off in his foot. It blew off his center toe, cleanly.
They sewed him up, and unless someone points it out now, you would never notice.

You know you could tattoo some fingernails on those two stubbies, and no one would ever notice...


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