# Square corners



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

A thought has just popped into my head, how do professional door makers make the patterns with square corners. I know that they use CNC machines, but that in itself doesn't answer the question. I wonder if multiple cutters are used, finishing the internal corners with a "V" cutter.


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## jschaben (Jun 21, 2009)

harrysin said:


> A thought has just popped into my head, how do professional door makers make the patterns with square corners. I know that they use CNC machines, but that in itself doesn't answer the question. I wonder if multiple cutters are used, finishing the internal corners with a "V" cutter.


Hi Harry - with a CNC I think they overshoot a bit, lift out of the work and replunge in going the next direction.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Wouldn't that still leave round corners John?


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## Swallow (Jan 13, 2010)

What kind of doors are you talking about Harry?


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## Hamlin (Dec 25, 2005)

Hi Harry,

It would probably follow along the same principles as the following links. 

YouTube - Drilling a square hole! (www.howround.com)
YouTube - square hole drilling


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Swallow said:


> What kind of doors are you talking about Harry?


Excuse the lousy photo., but if you look at it carefully, you'll notice that the outside corners are perfectly square.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Hamlin said:


> Hi Harry,
> 
> It would probably follow along the same principles as the following links.
> 
> ...


I can't see that Ken, in spite of it being very interesting, there really are some clever people out there. I hope all is well in the Hamlin household.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Harry

The only way I see how they do it , is with the stamp mold type,(just like a big waffle iron press ) that's to say when they make the stock (MDF) they stamp them out with a 200 ton press.

When they make the stock (MDF) it looks like dry oat meal..

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harrysin said:


> Excuse the lousy photo., but if you look at it carefully, you'll notice that the outside corners are perfectly square.


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## rwyoung (Aug 3, 2008)

Probably not practical for "inexpensive" CNC machines but if you add another axis to allow the cutting bit to be tilted, you can mill a square corner with a V-cutter. The bit is tipped such that one side is parallel to the cut direction and the tip is in the corner. Now you can cut square. And technically, it still isn't square, the tip of a V-cutter is till a bit rounded but close enough for government work.

An alternative to tilting the bit is to tilt the work piece but ultimately this all means more steps, more complexity and more cost so I doubt it how its done in production cabinetry.


p.s. - my post is referring to INSIDE corners. If you mean an outside corner, you will get a square corner as the bit transitions from an "X" travel to a "Y" travel because all the cutting happens just at the little tangential point. However due to some slop in the equipment it can and probably will round over a little bit.


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## Hamlin (Dec 25, 2005)

*For Harry*

Take a look at these vids. It becomes clear soon enough. Yes, things are quite well here, especially that it's stopped raining... for now. 

YouTube - Square-Hole Drill in Three Dimensions
YouTube - Drilling a Hexagonal Hole


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## Hamlin (Dec 25, 2005)

harrysin said:


> Excuse the lousy photo., but if you look at it carefully, you'll notice that the outside corners are perfectly square.


Harry, 

The profile may have been created before the pieces were cut to final size, this would give you that perfect "square" corner. That is, if I'm looking correctly at your pic.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Guys

I'm not as smart as you guys are but I know you can't get a sq.corner with a round cutting tool 


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======


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

Ken,

I must be missing something.. Those videos appear to *me* to be showing how to use a cam to make the center of a cutter move in a square or hexagonal shape. I'm with BJ... whatever the radius of the bit is, a corner of that radius will be left in the corner. The only way I know of would be to do cope and stick construction. It can be approximated by using a very small radius but the principal is still the same. 

Of course the *best* answer is to get out your scary-sharp paring chisels. 

Jim
Routologist and Neanderthal-in-Training


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## Noob (Apr 18, 2009)

harrysin said:


> Excuse the lousy photo., but if you look at it carefully, you'll notice that the outside corners are perfectly square.


Are those doors all one piece? You can't make a square corner with a round tool obviously, but I wonder if they are using some kind of specialized tool. 

If they used a multi-head CNC router, I would think they hog most of it out and then come back with a small diameter bit to minimize the corner radius. Then maybe use a corner-chisel or similar tool:


> Hinge Butt Corner Chisel
> 
> A razor-sharp, spring-loaded blade squares corners of routed mortises to accommodate various lock faces and door hinges. Made from heavy-duty steel to withstand years of use. Simple and effective!












Hinge Butt Corner Chisel - Rockler Woodworking Tools

Obviously this is pure speculation though.


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## Hamlin (Dec 25, 2005)

Believe me, I'm just as confused by it as you are. However, it does come out as a square hole. Round IS round but, how this is coming out....


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## Jack Wilson (Mar 14, 2010)

I am going to chime in with my .02, (which is metric, for you Harry!). I just routed out some doors which I believe was the catalyst for this question. I really wanted to achieve the doors that Harry has in his photo, but could not, yet. Maybe someday my technique will advance, and I will find out I am completely wrong... Any way, while the inside was crisp and square, the outsides were round. I explained to the customer first that this would be the case, and with their approval made the doors accordingly. I believe it was Harry who suggested some sort of paring tool, that gets my vote, or the 200 ton press; that sounds plausible as well. I can see a simple jig that drops in using custom knives and shaves out the corners, quick, clean and most likely cheaper than a 200 ton press, smaller too. There isn't much to remove, the CNC has hogged out most of it, and if your running production, the price of the knives and tooling is all part of the cost of doing business. 

Remember you heard it here first. Live, local, and up to the minute!


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## Hamlin (Dec 25, 2005)

If you put in the profile first and cut your pieces over length then trim to fit, you'll get that square corner.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

I am indeed referring to the internal corners. There have been some interesting theories posted but what I'm after is a definitive answer. I wonder if contacting the likes of Laminex Industries, who specialise in this type of door, would produce results.


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## rwyoung (Aug 3, 2008)

OK, one more question. Are these pressed or cut doors? 

I can imagine how to make all the corners square (or at reasonably so) if the entire door was squished out of a press, likely more than one press operation including some thermoforming.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

rwyoung said:


> OK, one more question. Are these pressed or cut doors?
> 
> I can imagine how to make all the corners square (or at reasonably so) if the entire door was squished out of a press, likely more than one press operation including some thermoforming.


Who knows Rob.I've examined them carefully, bearing in mind that the fronts and edges are high gloss Vinyl wrapped and the rears are a matt finish. There are ten different size doors in the kitchen, notice in this shot the drawers with the pattern all the way down.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

One big door cut into 5 parts, that's a neat way to get that look..

=======


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

bobj3 said:


> One big door cut into 5 parts, that's a neat way to get that look..
> 
> =======


That's definitely how Laminex Industries make the solid wood ones, you can see that from the shots in their catalogue but just what the vinyl wrap covers up, I just don't know and it's bugging me. I'm like you bob, I want to know how things are done!


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Harry

I'm almost sure why they "vinyl wrap covers" on the doors,,MDF is not clean and putting on the vinyl covers would not need to be sanded, but like the oat mill thing they can press the MDF in the mold..I have seen some furniture made that way and I'm sure you have also..most of it is PB press stuff..

I'm looking at a cheap corner table made that way...the doors are neat but it could have not been done the normal way...sharp corners also..


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harrysin said:


> That's definitely how Laminex Industries make the solid wood ones, you can see that from the shots in their catalogue but just what the vinyl wrap covers up, I just don't know and it's bugging me. I'm like you bob, I want to know how things are done!


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## Ghidrah (Oct 21, 2008)

I wouldn't put it past someone soaking a soft wood then running it into a press, steaming it into shape and quick drying it.

I once saw Roy Underhill do some crazy things with soaked pine.


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

Underhill is just a few knots short of a stump!

I'd love to spend a week in one of his classes.....


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Roy Underhill ,videos below

PBS - Woodwright's Shop: Schedule
PBS - Woodwright's Shop: Schedule

*THIS IS ONE YOU WANT TO BOOKMARK*  ▼
many,many great videos below
Woodworking Video Links


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TwoSkies57 said:


> Underhill is just a few knots short of a stump!
> 
> I'd love to spend a week in one of his classes.....


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## Noob (Apr 18, 2009)

harrysin said:


> That's definitely how Laminex Industries make the solid wood ones, you can see that from the shots in their catalogue but just what the vinyl wrap covers up, I just don't know and it's bugging me. I'm like you bob, I want to know how things are done!


Are you sure it's vinyl wrapped? It could be powder coated. The first time I heard of powder-coated MDF I thought they were joking until a vendor powder-coated some MDF for us on a project.


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

Harry.. I've been thinknig about this since you posted it. Could they be a stick-built porous core with vinyl applied in a heated vacuum frame? If so. careful inspection may show where the needle (tube) was inserted to draw the vacuum). I'm just speculating on plausible approaches here..


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## Hamlin (Dec 25, 2005)

I have some bath cabinets in my possession that are just as Paulo describes. It's more than likely done with the powder coat method. Either way, the doors are still made the same way. One piece at a time, style, rail, panel.


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## Jack Wilson (Mar 14, 2010)

harrysin said:


> I am indeed referring to the internal corners.


Harry, the inside corners, not the outside? The inside are easy, I can do that. Are we on the same page or am I _really_ missing something? The way I am looking at it it's the _outside_ that are difficult/impossible with just a router.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

These are Vinyl wrap, that's what we chose from the catalogue. Besides, within a couple of months of installation, the plain panel above the microwave started to ripple as the vinyl couldn't cope with the heat. A phone call brought the guy back and he replaced the panel about a week later which was coated differently, it's a semi-matt finish.
My understanding of powder coating is that the item receives an electrostatic charge then passes through a chamber where the powder is injected and adheres to the surface by the electrostatic charge before passing slowly through an infra red oven. If all this is so, then I'm surprised that wood and MDF can be so treated. If a definitive answer hasn't surfaced by the time I next visit our local salvage yard, I'll see if I can pick up a cheap door to play with, they often get brand new doors presumably misfits.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Jack

Just a butt in post, the other way around the inside ones are impossible with a round tool..


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Jack Wilson said:


> Harry, the inside corners, not the outside? The inside are easy, I can do that. Are we on the same page or am I _really_ missing something? The way I am looking at it it's the _outside_ that are difficult/impossible with just a router.


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

Jack,

Inside vs Outside depends on how you look at it.. I'm pretty sure both of you are talking about the part nearest the perimeter of the panel.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

BigJimAK said:


> Jack,
> 
> Inside vs Outside depends on how you look at it.. I'm pretty sure both of you are talking about the part nearest the perimeter of the panel.


Hopefully a picture will be worth a thousand words.


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## rwyoung (Aug 3, 2008)

You can metal plate plastic through a series of steps where you lay down binder layers. So I suppose getting a powder coat onto MDF might be possible if you have a binder layer (maybe more than one?) between the paint and the MDF.


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## Swallow (Jan 13, 2010)

The outside corners are the easy part as they happen automatically during the x, y transition. The inside corners would be done with a profile cutter with a v bottom end. After the profiles are cut the panel moves to a new platen where the flat bits are hogged out, this saves bit change, at least that is the way it is done at my friends cabinetry shop. 

The question I would have to ask is why in the world would anyone want doors or anything else for that matter made out of M D F? Is it because it's cheap?


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## Jack Wilson (Mar 14, 2010)

Harry, BigJim, & BJ,

yes we are all talking about the same location on the door, Just referring to it differently, sorry for the misunderstanding on my part. So my original statement that I could see some custom knives cutting the corners square is still true. 

Harry, thanks for the picture, it really did clarify things.


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

They'd have to slice from each side to get it truly square, as you'd do with a chisel. No matter what angle you lean a bit, if its round it's going to leave a round cut.


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## Jack Wilson (Mar 14, 2010)

BigJimAK said:


> They'd have to slice from each side to get it truly square, as you'd do with a chisel. No matter what angle you lean a bit, if its round it's going to leave a round cut.


Exactly


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Nah, for mass production there has to be a simple way. This afternoon I was about to visit the salvage yard to find a cheap door for dismantling but SWMBO decided she wanted me to take her somewhere else, so hopefully tomorrow will be another day.


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## Hamlin (Dec 25, 2005)

If you "profile" your pieces first, then cut them to length. You'll get the square corners. Take 2 pieces of scrap, put in any type of profile, then cut them on a miter at 45*. You'll get the square corners.


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

You're dead-on there, Hamlin.. that's analogous to R&S in that you cut the profile and assemble from multiple pieces.


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## Hamlin (Dec 25, 2005)

If the covering in which Harry is pointing out is removed, you'll find that the door(s), are made all the same way. Rail, Style, Panel. A vacuum press is more likely used to get "coating" in form on the door(s). CNC machines can do this quite easily so long as you have the proper # of axis movements. Think they are now up to what, 7 axis movements, if not more? Along with 40+ bit change holder? Mass production = CNC.


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## istracpsboss (Sep 14, 2008)

Noob said:


> Are you sure it's vinyl wrapped? It could be powder coated. The first time I heard of powder-coated MDF I thought they were joking until a vendor powder-coated some MDF for us on a project.


That's intriguing. Did they coat it first with conductive paint? Powder coating relies on a charge on the base material and another on the paint particles. (I should read complete threads before posting. I've only now seen Harry's reply.)

Cheers

Peter


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## istracpsboss (Sep 14, 2008)

Swallow said:


> The outside corners are the easy part as they happen automatically during the x, y transition. The inside corners would be done with a profile cutter with a v bottom end. After the profiles are cut the panel moves to a new platen where the flat bits are hogged out, this saves bit change, at least that is the way it is done at my friends cabinetry shop.
> 
> The question I would have to ask is why in the world would anyone want doors or anything else for that matter made out of M D F? Is it because it's cheap?


I think mostly because it is very stable. You can even get mouldings made from it.

Cheers

Peter


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Harry

The more I look at the doors, they look like a normal doors, that's to say a 4 part frame and a panel insert type with a white cover over them....
Or just a very high gloss plastic coat paint job..

=======


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

You would, and still maybe right Bob if I could only see or feel the slightest sign of a join between rail and stile. The bi-fold doors to our walk in robe which are Vinyl coated are quite obviously rail and stile, the joints can be seen under the Vinyl. I still intend to pay a visit to our local salvage yard in an effort to pick one up cheaply so that I can hold an autopsy!


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## Hamlin (Dec 25, 2005)

Hi Harry,

The other possible solution could be, the vinyl covering is preheated and then pressed into shape via a vacuum press. Just a thought.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Harry

You could pop out one of the hinges out it's pocket hole that may give you a hint, it's looks like MDF to me, because they can glue the panel in place unlike real wood and send it under one of the high end 24" wide sanders that do the complete door in a pass or two with 320 grit but if you find real wood and the grain of real wood in the pocket holes it's a standard door frame type setup..  but your right the only way to know for sure is cut one up..

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harrysin said:


> You would, and still maybe right Bob if I could only see or feel the slightest sign of a join between rail and stile. The bi-fold doors to our walk in robe which are Vinyl coated are quite obviously rail and stile, the joints can be seen under the Vinyl. I still intend to pay a visit to our local salvage yard in an effort to pick one up cheaply so that I can hold an autopsy!


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

*Now judge for yourselves*



bobj3 said:


> Hi Harry
> 
> You could pop out one of the hinges out it's pocket hole that may give you a hint, it's looks like MDF to me, because they can glue the panel in place unlike real wood and send it under one of the high end 24" wide sanders that do the complete door in a pass or two with 320 grit but if you find real wood and the grain of real wood in the pocket holes it's a standard door frame type setup..  but your right the only way to know for sure is cut one up..
> 
> =====


I finally made it to the local salvage yard and there were more than 50 cupboard doors there selling for $5.00 each regardless of size or finish. Most of the Vinyl wrap one's had ROUND inner corners, however I did finally reach a couple with SQUARE corners. Whilst struggling to extract one of them I noticed that a matching one had no Vinyl on it's front, what a find!
No need to dissect it, it was obviously MDF and I suspect made on a multi head CNC router. What thoughts now? By the way, I'll keep it, I'm sure that one day, if I live so long, I'll find a use for it!


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Thanks Harry

It will take me a bit to get my head around how they did it, but I think your right with a CNC only, and stay away from the true corner with the round V bit..you could say a off set corner edge...


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harrysin said:


> I finally made it to the local salvage yard and there were more than 50 cupboard doors there selling for $5.00 each regardless of size or finish. Most of the Vinyl wrap one's had ROUND inner corners, however I did finally reach a couple with SQUARE corners. Whilst struggling to extract one of them I noticed that a matching one had no Vinyl on it's front, what a find!
> No need to dissect it, it was obviously MDF and I suspect made on a multi head CNC router. What thoughts now? By the way, I'll keep it, I'm sure that one day, if I live so long, I'll find a use for it!


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

Harry,

Can you see the radius?

Jim


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## jschaben (Jun 21, 2009)

BigJimAK said:


> Harry,
> 
> Can you see the radius?
> 
> Jim


With a 5-axis machine there may not be a radius as the machine can use the point for the corner. routing on the angle so to speak.


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

That's true, John.. If the production v-bit comes to a sharp point but I'd think a sharp point would wear more... was just asking.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Jim, I just routed a right angle using a 45* pointed "V" cutter and there was a definite radius. I then carefully examined the door and there is a perceptible radius. My thought here is that the greater angle which appears to be 55* of the cutter used in the door could be the answer, unfortunately I don't have such a cutter to test the theory. What do think the chances are that Bj has something suitable.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Harry

I have one that's a 60 deg. but very small for letters but MLCS has one or two that would do the job I think.

MLCS Dish Cutters, V-Groove, Sign Lettering, Router Letter Template Set, Sign Carving


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harrysin said:


> Jim, I just routed a right angle using a 45* pointed "V" cutter and there was a definite radius. I then carefully examined the door and there is a perceptible radius. My thought here is that the greater angle which appears to be 55* of the cutter used in the door could be the answer, unfortunately I don't have such a cutter to test the theory. What do think the chances are that Bj has something suitable.


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## gav (Oct 12, 2009)

Here's a site that sells cnc bit sets to make MDF raised panel doors.
They say a 'veining' bit is used to square the corners.
Let's not forget that a cnc router can move in ways our routers can not. For this task I would say it might have to tilt the cutter and plunge down and sideways at the same time.

MDF Raised Panel Door System - Blades LLC

Skip to the end of this video and it seems as though the doors have fairly sharp corners.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kG4XjZOfAcY&feature=related


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Here are two links, the first is similar to the one Gavin posted, again, the picture quality leaves a lot to be desired. The second one shows a "V" cutter but the wording beneath it is interesting.
My thoughts at this stage are that a five axis router would have no difficulty at all, but It looks like a two axis router can also achieve similar results. What we need now is for a member who operates one of these CNC routers to come forward and show us how simply internal square corners are produced.

http://www.cncroutingservices.net/our-capabilities

http://www.procamcnc.com.au/listProduct/12.Cutters+for+Door+Profiles+Etc/Conic+Cutters


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## RJM (Apr 11, 2010)

Thermofoil Doors are made using a ¾" MDF (Medium Density Fibreboard) panel, with white melamine backs which is then pressed using a high quality thermoplastic foil. Thermofoil Doors come in a wide range of solid and wood grain colors and have a huge selection of options from Crown Molding, Glass Frame Doors to Fluted Filler Columns. You can also get a matching peel and stick vinyl to finish off your re-facing project.

Central Valley Thermofoil & Mitered Cabinet Doors

Thermofoil Covered Cabinet Doors | Cabinetmart

Thermo Foil Doors


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Thanks for those links Robert, the first one gives the impression that the pattern is pressed into the MDF which surprised me, however the second one states that they are routed first, which still leaves the question of the square corners.


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## RJM (Apr 11, 2010)

I don't think the corners are really round. CNC finishing bits can be ver small in diameter (click here for .005 dia bits). When the vinyl is added on top, this the tiny radius will disapear. Even a 60 mil diameter bit (.060 ~ 1/16) will produce just a 30 mil corner radius. Adding 15 mils of vinyl (I'm guessing on thickness) will cut this in half, resulting in a 15 mil radius (.015" ~ 1/64" ~ .4mm). I don't think you would be able to see this without magnification. Smaller finishing bits will make the corners appear perfectly square.

I would also guess that wood grain is introduced into the vinyl cover during the vinyl pressing process. I read something about early versions of these doors having grain going in only one direction. Since the vinyl is over MDF, the grain must be artificial and, therefore, could be made to go in any direction.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Harry

I know this not the same but if I use a small bit with the CNC machine it will look like a sharp sq.corner cut on the inside corner of the pass.

Using the same bit as posted above 

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RJM60 said:


> I don't think the corners are really round. CNC finishing bits can be ver small in diameter (click here for .005 dia bits). When the vinyl is added on top, this the tiny radius will disapear. Even a 60 mil diameter bit (.060 ~ 1/16) will produce just a 30 mil corner radius. Adding 15 mils of vinyl (I'm guessing on thickness) will cut this in half, resulting in a 15 mil radius (.015" ~ 1/64" ~ .4mm). I don't think you would be able to see this without magnification. Smaller finishing bits will make the corners appear perfectly square.
> 
> I would also guess that wood grain is introduced into the vinyl cover during the vinyl pressing process. I read something about early versions of these doors having grain going in only one direction. Since the vinyl is over MDF, the grain must be artificial and, therefore, could be made to go in any direction.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

If the pattern on that amazing box was done in your Compucarve Bob, then the question has now been answered, thanks to everyone for so much input.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Harry

Your Welcome
Yep, the pattern on the lid was all done with just one bit in the Compucarve machine, I knew I saw that edge b/4 but could not recall it right off the bat.
CRS thing.  then it hit me 

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harrysin said:


> If the pattern on that amazing box was done in your Compucarve Bob, then the question has now been answered, thanks to everyone for so much input.


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

Bob.. Would that small diameter bit be feasible in mass-produced inexpensive doors or would it need to be moved too slowly to be cost effective? Perhaps with several successively smaller sizes in a an automated bit changing CNC?


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Jim

I don't know but I know the CNC machines are slow, but I don't know how anyone can justify making doors with a 30,000.oo to a 50,000.oo machine,it would take a long time b/4 they paid for the machine and the bits..when a normal router can do almost the same job for much less...round corners yes but it's only wood cabinet door..  

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BigJimAK said:


> Bob.. Would that small diameter bit be feasible in mass-produced inexpensive doors or would it need to be moved too slowly to be cost effective? Perhaps with several successively smaller sizes in a an automated bit changing CNC?


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

It sounds like the "problem" might not have been resolved. Bob, having looked at a number of CNC videos in the last few days it appears that a whole kitchen of doors, all different sizes where necessary are made at the same time from one large sheet of MDF. As has been mentioned, the smaller the cutter the slower the machine. I have a feeling that a five axis router is used which I believe would solve the square corner problem.


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## jschaben (Jun 21, 2009)

bobj3 said:


> Hi Jim
> 
> I don't know but I know the CNC machines are slow, but I don't know how anyone can justify making doors with a 30,000.oo to a 50,000.oo machine,it would take a long time b/4 they paid for the machine and the bits..when a normal router can do almost the same job for much less...round corners yes but it's only wood cabinet door..
> 
> ======


I dunno about slow comparing overall production from a bean counters perspective. The furniture factory I was working at installed a 2 head - 3 axis machine, basically to cut couch frames. After getting the bugs worked out it was cutting up 100 frames/shift, less than 5 min per frame. Also replaced a gang rip, two cabinet saws, two upcut (jump) saws, two bandsaws, a horizontal and a vertical boring machine. Not to mention 10 or 11 people.:'( Price was closer to 300,000 than 30,000. Main concession was going from rough cut poplar to birch plywood.
I think a multi-head, 5 axis machine with automatic tool and stock changers would meet production demands. Would need a bunch of upfront capital to do it though.h34r:


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Harry

You are right a five axis router will do the job but now we are talking about big bucks ( 200,000.00 to 300,000.00 bucks) I'm sure you will not find one in many wood shops 

YouTube - HEIAN 5-AXIS CNC FANUC ROUTER WOOD STAIR RAIL ROUTING 02

I should note my router table was made by a CNC machine..

==



harrysin said:


> It sounds like the "problem" might not have been resolved. Bob, having looked at a number of CNC videos in the last few days it appears that a whole kitchen of doors, all different sizes where necessary are made at the same time from one large sheet of MDF. As has been mentioned, the smaller the cutter the slower the machine. I have a feeling that a five axis router is used which I believe would solve the square corner problem.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

What you must remember Bob is that companies Like Laminex Industries and several others specialise in making doors, Very few kitchen/bathroom firms over here make their own doors, they hand the customer a catalogue showing a vast number of materials and finishes and make it clear that this is the cheapest and best way to go about it. Capital cost to these companies just isn't a problem and when I was in business the tax write off on capital equipment was as high as 20% a year!

Edit: I forgot to mention that the majority of large companies lease their major equipment which gives big tax advantages and makes it economical to replace equipment as better technology reaches the marketplace.


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## tom819800 (Apr 9, 2010)

The doors you posted have been put through a press , not routed if they are made of that dry oat material you mentioned......I saw it on TV a while back Discovery channel or something.... if you were to remove the finish you would probably notice there are no joints..... I could be wrong.....


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## magicdave (Apr 14, 2010)

harrysin said:


> A thought has just popped into my head, how do professional door makers make the patterns with square corners. I know that they use CNC machines, but that in itself doesn't answer the question. I wonder if multiple cutters are used, finishing the internal corners with a "V" cutter.


I made all of the doors in my house. They all have square corners. I use a router accessory called an Angle Ease from Wood Haven. I use a V bit with it to make perfectly square corners by hand. This accessory allows me to do all sorts of decorative work that cannot be easily duplicated with any other machines. I also do all of the mortise and tenon joints on my doors with a hand held router.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

That Dave reinforces my conclusions that five axis CNC routers are used in mass production.


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## tom819800 (Apr 9, 2010)

i think its strange that they would send a piece of MDF through such a process. When you took the finish off it it does look like it was worked with a tool and not pressed (molded ).... hmmmmmm interesting.....


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## johnskudlarek (Feb 8, 2005)

*Possible with 3-axis machine*

I realize this is an older thread but I've just read it with great interest. I'm convinced that the appearance of mitered corners can be simulated with a very very small radius using a vee bit and a three axis machine. As the corner is approached the X, Y, and Z axis are all incremented or decremented as needed for each step. To visualize the motion required, hold a vee bit by the shank between the thumb and fore finger. Use the tip of the bit to trace the profile. See that as the corner is approached the bit is simultaneously raised and moved deeper into the corner. The procedure is then reversed to begin the pass at a right angle to the preceding pass.


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## RJM (Apr 11, 2010)

johnskudlarek said:


> I realize this is an older thread but I've just read it with great interest. I'm convinced that the appearance of mitered corners can be simulated with a very very small radius using a vee bit and a three axis machine. As the corner is approached the X, Y, and Z axis are all incremented or decremented as needed for each step. To visualize the motion required, hold a vee bit by the shank between the thumb and fore finger. Use the tip of the bit to trace the profile. See that as the corner is approached the bit is simultaneously raised and moved deeper into the corner. The procedure is then reversed to begin the pass at a right angle to the preceding pass.


You're right. This was the solution - see post: http://www.routerforums.com/general-routing/21979-members-who-followed-my-thread.html#post187877


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## nigjoe (Aug 18, 2010)

Production of MDF doors with square corners is done everywhere on 3 axis cnc routers. After the detail bit is run a v bit that matches the angle of the detail/profile tool is dropped in the corner/intersection and is ramped out at the same angle. Many tool suppliers sell the carbide insert tooling as sets to produce the sq corner instead of a rad. If you have a perfect line without a very small radius the the guy who ran your door is an excellent setup operator. I used to work here years ago running Shoda's, Thermofoil Doors
Have a look at the Thermofoil doors they are MDF with a thin wood grain plastic shrinked wrapped over, others are baked paint.
I find it rather funny as this company is across the street where I work now, I worked there 18 yrs ago.
cheers all


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## Ralph Barker (Dec 15, 2008)

Hmmm. And all this time I thought they just used square router bits.


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## loffiebotes (Nov 11, 2010)

i've gottan it right (well almost) on a woodmaster 315. bt nd sum fine tjuning nd need some help. with the settins???????


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## magicdave (Apr 14, 2010)

*Square Corners*



harrysin said:


> A thought has just popped into my head, how do professional door makers make the patterns with square corners. I know that they use CNC machines, but that in itself doesn't answer the question. I wonder if multiple cutters are used, finishing the internal corners with a "V" cutter.


I imagine that door manufacturers use multiple cutters since that would be cost effective. 

Personally I use precision router accessories. I have two different systems. I have what will soon be a complete Micro Fence system that is a part of my modular job site set up. I have built my wood working shop to be as portable as possible. I also have a Router Boss set up with a permanently installed DeWalt DW625. I have some other toys that are specialty accessories of which some were errors in judgment since they see little use.

Back when I first started using routers I was amazed at the versatility of the tool. I have since acquired a reasonably extensive collection of routers and accessories so that almost everything I do utilizes routers with 2 exceptions. I have a portable table saw and a compound miter saw. Everything else is done with a router.

As far as square corners when I router my mortises and tenons I clamp the frame pieces together and mill the tenons on both vertical pieces at the same time. The mortises are done consecutively with no adjustments to the precision fence until after I complete all four (4) mortises. That way all will fit with just enough relief for glue. Carefully setting up the cuts have always worked well for me. My latest project involved making an entire pre-hung door for a friend that is remodeling his home. That was done "gratis" since he is a painting contractore that hires me to do all of his trim work.


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## malb (Sep 15, 2008)

*Reviving an old thread but.*

I drive a commercial 3 axis CNC for a living, cutting kitchens etc.

The boss has load of software for design, panel layout, generating CNC code from DXF files etc. He can measure a vacant room, design a kitchen on computer to customer satisfaction, show them design on screen from an point in the room, then translate the whole thing into CNC router instruction files. I then cut each file on a sheet of melamine, producing components which are fully sized and drilled, then label the parts and edge them.

Often we cut flat panel doors and dress panels ourselves from MDF cored colorboard, and edge them. Again cut to size, all holes drilled for hinges and handles etc. Occasionally we do this on thicker MDF, and the doors are 2 pack painted on face and edges. The backs are not painted at the painting process is about $100 a square metre (or square yard), and the back has a suitable colored colorboard coating anyway.

Today we started experimenting with routed pattern doors for the kitchen in the bosses new home. Lots of mucking around defining bit profiles etc to start with, lots of work laying out the master profile set for the doors but on the 6th test piece we had the pattern that he wanted and are ready to cut doors and panels to whatever size needed, by specifying size and the master profile. We are using a compression bit (cut out the door), a spiral bit (clear recessed fields), and two profile bits that are normally mounted on the CNC, a 45 deg V bit and a small plunge roundover bit.

The software had no hassle programming the square internal corners that prompted this thread, and the 3 axis CNC had no issues cutting it.

The cutter is plunged into the material and fed along the relevant axis until it reaches the corner. If it was then feed along the the perpendicular axis, the top of the cut would have a radius equal to the depth of cut of the 45deg V bit.

However, to achieve the pinpoint radius shown Harry's pic, at the corner, the bit moves in X and Y axis at 45 deg outward from the original line of travel, while raising at a 45 deg gradient until clear of the surface. It then plunges back in, following the original path and gradient until it reaches cutting depth and then travels to the next corner, where it repeats the procedure. Each internal corner process takes about 2 seconds longer than a normal direction change.

Hopes this helps those that are interested. I will shoot some video soon when we do the production doors and panels.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

An interesting post Mal. I look forward to some pictures.


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

harrysin said:


> Nah, for mass production there has to be a simple way.


Two ways, Harry - conventional 5-part door, glued then wrapped, although for most CNC users that is too time consuming (i.e. costlr), the second way is to choose designs where the outside corners can be worked using a 5-axis machine with a 60° v-point bit (Titman in the UK make these cutters for CNC work). With proper programming this allows the point to be drawn upwards and outwards to generate the sharp corner. I've seen this done at a demo and the programming is quite complex

Regards

Phil


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## Gaia (Feb 20, 2010)

Noob said:


> Are those doors all one piece? You can't make a square corner with a round tool obviously, but I wonder if they are using some kind of specialized tool.
> 
> If they used a multi-head CNC router, I would think they hog most of it out and then come back with a small diameter bit to minimize the corner radius. Then maybe use a corner-chisel or similar tool:
> 
> ...


Neat tool.


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Gaia said:


> Neat tool.


Yes, but only any use squaring-out corners of hinge mortises

Regards

Phil


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## istracpsboss (Sep 14, 2008)

True, but if he wants one he doesn't need to go over the pond. Most of the usual UK suppliers sell them, some of them very cheaply. I think they all come from India.

Cheers

Peter


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

istracpsboss said:


> True, but if he wants one he doesn't need to go over the pond. Most of the usual UK suppliers sell them, some of them very cheaply. I think they all come from India.


I know that Silverline do them

Regards

Phil


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## istracpsboss (Sep 14, 2008)

ISTR that is where mine came from. I bought a couple to qualify for free shipping. I'd got some other stuff, too and they just made it up.

Cheers

Peter


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Phil P said:


> Two ways, Harry - conventional 5-part door, glued then wrapped, although for most CNC users that is too time consuming (i.e. costlr), the second way is to choose designs where the outside corners can be worked using a 5-axis machine with a 60° v-point bit (Titman in the UK make these cutters for CNC work). With proper programming this allows the point to be drawn upwards and outwards to generate the sharp corner. I've seen this done at a demo and the programming is quite complex
> 
> Regards
> 
> Phil


Phil, it is of course the INSIDE corners that we are talking about. At least a year ago I emailed Laminex Industries who are a huge manufacturer of doors to the trade and I received a prompt reply similar to your post above, I can't however find where I posted it.


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## magicdave (Apr 14, 2010)

*Square Corners*



harrysin said:


> A thought has just popped into my head, how do professional door makers make the patterns with square corners. I know that they use CNC machines, but that in itself doesn't answer the question. I wonder if multiple cutters are used, finishing the internal corners with a "V" cutter.


Hi Harry,
I am not sure how it is done on a CNC machine but I have made a few doors using only a router and I get my outside corners square by moving my jig 90 degrees. Interior corners are another story though. I do know it is possible because I have witnessed a guitar body being routed on a CNC machine. The neck pocket is perfect square with sharp corners when the body is removed from the machine. I get it close and use a chisel because I use jigs.  There is a small window building company pretty close to here. They use CNC routing equipment. Next time I am in the area I will stop by and see if I can watch and let you know what I can observe.


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## RJM (Apr 11, 2010)

harrysin said:


> Phil, it is of course the INSIDE corners that we are talking about. At least a year ago I emailed Laminex Industries who are a huge manufacturer of doors to the trade and I received a prompt reply similar to your post above, I can't however find where I posted it.


 
http://www.routerforums.com/general-routing/21979-members-who-followed-my-thread.html#post187877


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Thanks Robert, I can't understand why I started a new thread and I'm amazed that you found it.


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## RJM (Apr 11, 2010)

harrysin said:


> Thanks Robert, I can't understand why I started a new thread and I'm amazed that you found it.


You're welcome. Funnt thing is I can't remember how I found it!

I think I did a search for "Laminex". Whatever, it came right up.


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## routafinger (Dec 30, 2009)

This is a thread hijack if I've ever seen one, but I felt compelled to provide this link. :nono:

Broca para furo quadrado.wmv - YouTube


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## malb (Sep 15, 2008)

*Sorry for video delay*

Sorry Harry and others following this thread, Christmas break has come and the boss's kitchen is still on the drawing board literally, so we haven't started carving doors yet so no video as yet. However as he, his wife and 3 kids are currently living in a garage at the renovation, his wife is getting determined, and progress will be made early in the new year.


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