# Routing melamine or formica



## Chris Curl (Feb 13, 2012)

I imagine this topic has been discussed more than a few times, but I am really bad at the search process, so please be too mad at me ...

I have a couple of IKEA furniture components I want to use for workbench surfaces. And I want to install t-track in them.

Do you know ... is the IKEA stuff covered with melamine or formica or something else?

In any case, I have never routed that material, whatever it is.

What speed do you set the router to for that? 

And are there any other tips I should know?


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## Chris Curl (Feb 13, 2012)

one other question:

the stuff (i am pretty sure it is melamine) is 3/4" thick, so i am going to support it with either another piece of the same stuff, or 3/4" ply. Which would be better, and can I use TiteBond II to glue them up, even if one or both of the pieces is melamine?

ok maybe that was 2 questions ... sorry!


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## jschaben (Jun 21, 2009)

Chris Curl said:


> one other question:
> 
> the stuff (i am pretty sure it is melamine) is 3/4" thick, so i am going to support it with either another piece of the same stuff, or 3/4" ply. Which would be better, and can I use TiteBond II to glue them up, even if one or both of the pieces is melamine?
> 
> ok maybe that was 2 questions ... sorry!


Hi Chris - Melamine is typically a thin plastic coating over some kind of substrate. The most common I've seen around here is particle board but it could also be MDF or any number of other substrates. Not sure what IKEA uses but a good bet would be MDF. In any case, you could route your t-track groove with any bit you would normally use with wood. Same with speed, while melamine is a plastic product, the coating is so thin it would not be significant. I'd elect to use a sheet of 3/4 ply or OSB for the support layer. The plywood/OSB would give you the strength you want and the MDF/particle board would provide the hardness. You would want to seal the plywood part after it's glued up. OSB isn't as susceptible to moisture but sealing it, especially the edges, isn't a bad idea.
Glueing melamine is another issue. I haven't used the stuff but there is an adhesive for melamine called RooClear. I'm fairly certain none of the Titebonds will work very well with the possible exception of their polyurethane line. Here is a link the RooClear though:
http://www.amazon.com/Melamine-Adhesive/dp/B0006LA184
You may be able to find it locally though


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## Chris Curl (Feb 13, 2012)

thanks john. i figured out that it is particle board under the melamine.

i have a bunch of plywood sheets in the corner, so i will use that.


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## giradman (Jul 23, 2012)

Hi *Chis* - have use melamine products just a few times and agree a thin top coating of the material over PB or MDF.

Now, the melamine might be prone to 'chip out' or 'tearing' along its routed edges, so you might want to practice on some scraps to determine the cleanest way of obtaining the appearance you want; examples would be taping just inside the cut lines, scribing along the cut lines, or using a 'down cut' spiral bit (an up cut bit would clear out the groove but may chip the melamine).

Good luck and let us know your results - might be giving that a try in the future! Dave


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Yes to the Titebond II on Melamine being a problem. I discovered the hard way, with 1/8" white-faced Melamine hardboard being used for cabinet backs. Fortunately I had also securely stapled the perimeter. No harm no foul, as they say.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Titebond also has a melamine glue which I have been using for maybe ten years. It will glue melamine to a porous material. I bought my first bottle at the yearly woodworking show in Cloverdale (Vancouver suburb), BC. According to the factory rep it will even glue two melamine sufaces together if they are small. The water in the glue has to dry out and the only way between two non porous surfaces is sideways which takes time. It is the best glue I have ever seen for gluing the edge of particle board to something as the glue doesn't starve at the joint. The only real downside I have ever found is that NOTHING will take it off your hands.


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

jschaben said:


> Not sure what IKEA uses but a good bet would be MDF


Hi John

Over here in Europe IKEA furniture is made using a chipboard (particle board) core. Pretty sure that US items would be the same if only on cost and shipping grounds (MFC is both lighter and cheaper than MF-MDF). MF-MDF tends to be used in the shop/bar/restaurant fitting trades where I work because it is more durable than MFC, but boy is it heavy!



jschaben said:


> I'm fairly certain none of the Titebonds will work very well with the possible exception of their polyurethane line


Actually PVA or aliphatic resin both work sell with particle board - part of the trick is to "caulk2 the mating surfaces with a thinned layer of glue before doing a full glue-up. This partly seals the board and helps prevent dry joints. far cheaper and much easier to clean-up than PU glues



giradman said:


> Now, the melamine might be prone to 'chip out' or 'tearing' along its routed edges, so you might want to practice on some scraps to determine the cleanest way of obtaining the appearance you want; examples would be taping just inside the cut lines, scribing along the cut lines, or using a 'down cut' spiral bit (an up cut bit would clear out the groove but may chip the melamine).


Yes indeed - some makes are better than others, but it is absolutely essential to use a freshly sharpened cutter of a larger diameter (3/4in as opposed to 1/4in or even 1/2in) and to try and limit the cut to a few millimetres by trimming oversize with a jigsaw or rip saw. My best results have always been obtained using replaceable tip carbide cutters

Regards 

Phil


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## jschaben (Jun 21, 2009)

Charles - Thanks, I didn't know Franklin had a melamine glue. Doubt my Home Depot has it but I found it at Amazon.

Phil - I was picturing his project as having a plywood to melamine joint which I didn't think a PVA glue was going to be particularly successful with. The melamine glue looks like it was formulated just for that.


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## Chris Curl (Feb 13, 2012)

Thanks folks. Phil, the project is a router table top (somewhere between 16"x30" and 24"x48") with an IKEA cutoff (3/4" thick) for the surface with 4 t-tracks running widthwise, and a hole in the middle for the router. It is particle board. 

I also want to do something very similar for my drill press, with the middle part being a place for a sacrificial landing zone for the drill.

For the t-tracks (they are 15/32" tall and 3/4" wide), I can either route a 3/4" wide dado that is 1/2" deep into the top, or cut it clean and piece it together with a 1/4" thick piece under the t-track to bring it up in line with the top.

I also want to have 2 rulers embedded in the surface. They are 1/4" thick and 1 1/2" wide. Similar option there: either a dado, or a clean cut with the yardsticks sitting on 1/2" thick underlayment.

I am now thinking that cutting it clean with a table or circular saw and piecing it together might be the better option. If so, which type of blade would be good for that?

Since the IKEA piece is 3/4" thick, I need to support it with something. I have a choice between another piece of the same stuff, or 1/2" or 3/4" thick plywood. For that, i need to know what kind of glue I can use.

I am leaning towards 3/4" thick plywood. I already have Gorilla glue, which seems extremely sticky and like it would work. I also already have epoxy and fiberglass resin and hardener. I'd like to use one of those if possible, simply because I already have it.


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## jschaben (Jun 21, 2009)

Hi Chris - Given what you have on hand, I would go with the Gorilla Glue (polyurethane). Not the best but your forces are lateral and you could reinforce that with a few screws up from the bottom. If the plywood decides to warp it could be an issue so I would seal all non-glued surfaces with a good oil base paint or other sealer. I think epoxy may be an issue because of the area involved vs the work time available. 
Pieceing the top together should work for you, I would rethink the rulers though. I had originally planned the same for my table but decided to hold off and use it awhile without them. After a year, I just dropped the plan as not being particularly worth the effort. 
For cutting plastics, such as melamine, with minimal chipout, most of the blades sold for that purpose are TCG (triple chip grinds). You might get away by making scoring cuts on the table saw, both sides, then raising the blade for the through cut. I cut plexiglass and polycarbonates that way and have very little if any chipping.


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## Chris Curl (Feb 13, 2012)

John, sounds like a plan. But I have my heart set on embedded rulers because I am convinces they will make setup much more straightforward. My plan is to make them adjustable so that I can make sure they are 100% accurate.

Once they are in place and set correctly, all I have to do is set the fence at the desired distance and I'm done. Or at least that is my dream. Am I smoking something?


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## jschaben (Jun 21, 2009)

Chris Curl said:


> John, sounds like a plan. But I have my heart set on embedded rulers because I am convinces they will make setup much more straightforward. My plan is to make them adjustable so that I can make sure they are 100% accurate.
> 
> Once they are in place and set correctly, all I have to do is set the fence at the desired distance and I'm done. Or at least that is my dream. Am I smoking something?


Hi Chris - No - that works. My first table I inlayed some 6" scales with "0" at the bit centerline. It worked pretty well as you described, but on the second table, where I put off putting them in, I found other ways just as effective and nearly as fast. For one thing, most bearinged bits just require the fence to be flush with the bearing for the final cut. I just use a steel straight edge to get it there. If I need to make several cuts to get to my final cut, I clamp a couple of stop blocks behind the fence at that position. From that point on, I can just put the fence anywhere I want it until I hit the stop blocks. I can also step the fence back using stop blocks by shimming the stop blocks back with the fence clamped down. When the stop blocks are clamped, loosen the fence and move it against them. 
I'm not criticizing your use of rulers, just that I have developed an alternative way that works for me, not saying mine is better.


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## Mdawson (Mar 25, 2012)

Hi Chris

Not from personal experience, just what I've been reading lately.

When gluing some plastics it's important to 'break' the surface with sand paper just before you glue. There are few theories expoused as to why but the concensus rule appears to be don't sand it and leave it, glue it up within an hour or so.

The fact that no-one has mentioned it in this forum tends to indicate that this doesn't apply to melamine but it wouldn't hurt. 

Mark


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Mdawson said:


> When gluing some plastics it's important to 'break' the surface with sand paper just before you glue. There are few theories expoused as to why but the concensus rule appears to be don't sand it and leave it, glue it up within an hour or so.
> 
> The fact that no-one has mentioned it in this forum tends to indicate that this doesn't apply to melamine but it wouldn't hurt.


Hi Mark

In fact I'd say it applies to all wood products (and "melamine" is actually particle board with a thin skin of melamine laminated onto each face - not a plastic) - if you machine any timver or natural fibre material it is always good practice to glue-up as soon as practicable. Doing so means there is a reduced chance of the fibres swelling as well as reduced oxydation of the freshly-severed fibres not interfering with the action of the adhesive

Regards

Phil


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## papasombre (Sep 22, 2011)

Hi, Jhon.

I am making my first RT. Can you post some pictures about your way to set the fence?

Thank you in advance.


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## GulfcoastGuy (Feb 27, 2012)

Don't know where you are on your project but I used the Incra T-Track Plus on my fence and I like it. It's the same depth as a std. t-track but 1.25" wide and has a rule embedded in a side track. Down side is for some reason the rule is in segments that overlap but once you have them in place they don't move too easily.










Amazon has them.

Amazon.com: Incra TTRACKPLUS48 48-Inch T-Track Plus: Home Improvement
GCG


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## Chris Curl (Feb 13, 2012)

thanks. life has gotten in the way again, so i am still in the planning phase.

i have looked at those, and i'm sure they are great. that is pretty much exactly the type of thing i have in mind. but my scottish shoulder acts up every time i think about getting some. so i will almost certainly go with the t-track i already have and some $0.61 yardsticks from home depot.


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Hi Chris



Chris Curl said:


> I am now thinking that cutting it clean with a table or circular saw and piecing it together might be the better option. If so, which type of blade would be good for that?


MFC is best cut with a scoring blade and triple chip main blade - although doing that requires a $10,000+ panel saw. A cheaper option for dedicated MFC cutting, available over here at least is a Hi-ATB blade (high angle alternative top bevel) which are secially ground for the purpose. For years, though, I just used a negative rake triple chip grind blade - the sort of blade developed to cut MFC on radial arm saws. This type of blade requires careful use as it is prone to push back when making the cut (a bit like kick back) but the quality of cut is excellent. For your shallow cuts, though, I'd consider just going for a replaceable tip carbide router cutter - TC-RT always seems to be much sharper than brazed tips. BTW solic carbide spirals are a complete no-no for particle boards (including MFC) which are always manufactured using a percentage of recycled post-consumer waste (ground-up kitchen units, etc - including the odd screw or two which will destroy a solid carbide spiral very rapidly)



Chris Curl said:


> Since the IKEA piece is 3/4" thick, I need to support it with something. I have a choice between another piece of the same stuff, or 1/2" or 3/4" thick plywood. For that, i need to know what kind of glue I can use.


I am leaning towards 3/4" thick plywood. I already have Gorilla glue, which seems extremely sticky and like it would work.[/QUOTE]
The problem with Gorilla glue (a polyurethane or PU glue) is that it bubbles out and can be problematic to clean-up (more so on veneered boards). It also tends to open up joints unless they are properly cramped-up - not always easy on flat surfaces. Where I have needed to glue an MFC surface to another MFC surface I've tended to random score the two surfaces to be bonded with a Stanley knife and then glue with a good quality contact adhesive. Where I need to bind MFC to another material I tend to either screw the joints or use a joint which penetrates the surface of the MFC and allows timber to wood particle joints which can be conventionally glues, e.g. biscuit joints, wooden dowels or glued plywood tongues. Experience teaches me that glues don't adhere well to a shiny surface like MFC. My approach is specific to my sector of the trade (shop/intrior fit-out) but is accepted practice and proven durable if done correctly

Regards

Phil


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

EP 101...Cutting melamine panels without edge rip out - YouTube


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## Chris Curl (Feb 13, 2012)

i just read an article that said to make 2 passes, the first pass being 1/4" to just cut the coating. then the 2nd pass to cut the rest. since the initial cut is so shallow, it cuts the melamine coating without chipping.


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## jschaben (Jun 21, 2009)

papasombre said:


> Hi, Jhon.
> 
> I am making my first RT. Can you post some pictures about your way to set the fence?
> 
> Thank you in advance.


Hi Alexis - No problem.
First pic is I need to set to the bearing, the second if I need to set to a dimension. Once that setting is made, stop blocks can be placed behind the fence to set the final fence setting. Then you can move the fence forward. The only fence setting that's really important is the last one.


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## papasombre (Sep 22, 2011)

Hi, John.

Thank you very much for the details.

All the best for you.


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Chris Curl said:


> i just read an article that said to make 2 passes, the first pass being 1/4" to just cut the coating. then the 2nd pass to cut the rest. since the initial cut is so shallow, it cuts the melamine coating without chipping.


Hi Chris

Even at 1/4in you will still get some chip-out depending on the blade sharpness and tooth form. Industrial sliding carraige panel saws use a contra-rotating high-angle scoring blade to score to a deptth of about 1mm (1/25in) in front of the main blade. It is obviously impractical to do this on a small table saw, so the two alternatives saw blade makers offer here in Europe are the high angle ATB blade and the -ve hook )or zero hook) triple chip blade. The Hi-AT blades may not be available in your market, but -ve rake blades are - they are sold for use on radial arm saws (to reduce the chance of climb cutting), but on a table saw they needed to be treated with respect, i.e. riving knife and crown guard in place and push sticks used, because they are more prone to push back and even kick back if over fed

Regards

Phil


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