# More trigger pulling...



## lablover (May 15, 2007)

http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?familyid=5253


Had to do it..Works like a charm with the table saw..Now I gotta rig a way to hook up the dust collector with 4" hose to bottom cabinet then 2" hose to the incra fence connection.

Wooohooo..Darn thing bout yanked my shirt off 

Joe


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## Bob N (Oct 12, 2004)

Joe,

A great grab..... I am green with envy  

Better tie the dog to a wall


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## challagan (Feb 7, 2006)

Congrats there Joe! Wish I had room for one of those "suckers"  

Corey


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Joe

It's always nice to get a new toy and I sure like your new one, you didn't say which one you got ? model number ?

Bj


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## lablover (May 15, 2007)

bobj3 said:


> Hi Joe
> 
> It's always nice to get a new toy and I sure like your new one, you didn't say which one you got ? model number ?
> 
> Bj



100A....Down the road I'll get the canister as an add on if I need it. Did get the 1 micron bag however.


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## Joe Lyddon (Sep 11, 2004)

Very good!

I agree with Corey & Bob!


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## lablover (May 15, 2007)

Question

What is the benefit if any to wiring it for 220..I have a few 220 outlets...Just not sure of any benefit over 110...0r really 115V...

Just a matter of swaping a few wires on the Jet


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi 

It will cost you less to run it and it will run a bit better on 220 volts
If you have the outlets set to go do it... 


Bj 

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lablover said:


> Question
> 
> What is the benefit if any to wiring it for 220..I have a few 220 outlets...Just not sure of any benefit over 110...0r really 115V...
> 
> Just a matter of swaping a few wires on the Jet


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## Dr.Zook (Sep 10, 2004)

Nice purchase Joe. I think you will enjoy your new DC. I know your lungs will.


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## simplenik (Feb 14, 2006)

BJ
I don't think that it will cost less money

1 HP = 746 Watts

Watt = Voltage x Amperes

So if the voltage is 110V, we shall need 6.78 Amperes to produce 1 HP (110V x 6.78A = 746W)
But if the voltage is 220V, we shall need 3.39 Amperes to produce 1 HP (220V x 3.39A = 746W)

So, the same motor, hooked to 220V will need 1/2 of the Amperage to produce the same HP

But, the Electric company, like all the others companies, loves money and they will not let you to benefit from 220V. 
They charge you according to Kilowatt per Hour and in both cases (110V or 220V) you are consuming the same Kilowatts (0.746).

Lablover
First, I wish you to enjoy your new DC, I don't have space for such a monster...

I believe that you know that when say "1.5HP", they are, well, not telling all the truth because there are many ways to measure HP and the law is very loose, I would multiply this number by 0.6 (or 60%, average electric motor efficiency) to get close to the real HP (but, we want to sell, don't we...).

In Europe, the motor power is indicated by Watts, not HP, my TS is 2500W so I know that the consumption is around 11A (2500W: 230V) and the "HP" will be 3.35HP but, the motor efficiency is about 60% so the real HP is only 2HP

The benefit of using 220V is that, you don't need thick wires as for 110V and the motor will run cooler because less Amperes are flowing through the motor.

A good example it the Bosch 4000 TS that was advertised as "15A motor, 4HP" well, simple calculation 15A x 110V = 1500W
1500W : 746 = 2HP (and 60% of it is 1.2)
God knows about which 4HP they are talking about...but, we want to sell, don't we...

niki


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## lablover (May 15, 2007)

wow, lots to absorb niki. Thanks for the detailed explination. I do lnow one thing..I hoocked it up to my already dusty tablesaw and it yanked every bit of dust and chips out of it. I was pretty excited. Now I have to decide if I want to run 4" all over the shop.....Or a 6" main then 4" drops

I love it

Joe


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Niki saved me from wearing out my finger tips on the keyboard, he is of course correct on all points. Once again Bob forgot to add water to his whiskey!


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## simplenik (Feb 14, 2006)

Loblove

I'm glad that you are happy with your new DC, at least you are not disappointed from something that you paid for.

About 6" and 4" piping...
I will assume that you don't know so much of Aerodynamics (and you do, I apologize)

When the air flows over a surface (in this case it's your pipes), the nearest layer to the surface has zero velocity.
The second layer has some higher velocity, the third, higher and so on until the air gains the "free stream velocity" (in this case, the "free air velocity" is at the center of your pipe).

This layer, that the air velocity changes from zero to the free stream velocity, is called "Boundary layer", it's turbulent and causes "loss of momentum" or in simple words; it slows down the air flow in the pipes.

Just for the example, lets assume that the thickness of the Boundary layer is 1/4" (that is very close to reality) and it will be 1/4" over any surface (or if you like - in a 1" pipe and in 6" pipe the Boundary layer has the same thickness).
Now just imagine that you are using 1/2" diameter pipe...1/4" around the pipe is the boundary layer with reduced velocity and you shall have only the center 1/4" diameter with "free stream airflow" (or the highest velocity).

Now, increase the pipe diameter to 1", the Boundary layer is still 1/4" but the free stream diameter is now 3/4" and the more you increase the pipe diameter, the more free stream area you get.

When the surface (or the pipe) is long, the Boundary layer becomes more turbulent and thicker, so keep the piping as short as you can. I'm using a shop-vac (R2D2) for the TS and it's removing almost all the dust, I use a 2" hose but only 3' long.

Another factor that you have to consider is the "elbows" or T-connection, try to use minimum "turns" and if you have to (normally), use moderate elbow, say 30° turn or less.

What happens when the flow is forced to turn at 90°, it does not want to turn but wants to continue at the same direction and "cavities" are created, the airflow over a turn is very turbulent and creates a lot of drag or "Momentum loss" and in total reduces the airflow velocity.
Of course, if you have unlimited HP to overcome all those "Momentum losses" (or Duct losses), no problem but, you have only "advertised" 1.5HP so better to keep the losses to minimum.

Wow, that was long but, I hope that it will help you to organize your pipes.

Harry
Next time I'll wait a little bit more time and save me the typing (with two fingers...)

Regards
niki


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## Cassandra (Mar 15, 2006)

Hi lablover:

Per Table 45 in the Ontario Electrical Safety Code (same table in the Canadian Electrical Code and table M430-148 in the USA's National Electrical Code), Single Phase Motor Full Load Current for 1 HP is 16 Amps at 115V and 8 Amps for 230 Volts.

Inrush Current will be several times these values. So, the inrush current for 8 Amps will be half that of the 16 Amps. Less lamp dimming and other nuisance effects is achieved by going 230V.

Now in Table 2 of the CEC and OESC:
8 Amps requires a minimum of 14 AWG conductor, three conductor (ex. NMD-90 14/3)
16 Amps requires a minimum of 12 AWG conductor, two conductor (ex. NMD-90 12/2)
(Copper wire assumed. Heavier gauge for aluminum wire.)

These gauge values assume short cable runs from distribution panel to "point of utilisation" (motor terminals.) For runs over 10 metres (33 feet), the voltage drop calculations should be performed to see whether heavier-gauge conductors are needed. In the OESC and CEC, this is Rule 8-102.

Switches for turning the motor on/off need to be properly size, as do any plug/socket:
For 8 Amps, standard 230V/15A components are acceptable.
For 16 Amps, one needs to step up to a minimum of 20A components for switches and plugs/sockets. (80 percent rule)

Personally, I would go with the 230V wiring, if possible. Less impact on other loads connected to your (main) distribution panel. Also, less likely to trip the main fuse/breaker of the main distribution panel.

Hope this helps,
Cassie


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi niki

"It's fine to disagree with other members as long as you respect their opinions." 
MIKE
Senior Moderator


In the states when you run 220 1 phz. you need to use bigger wire size ..
In the states we use 3phz. to save money and almost all comm.building, companys do this.

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simplenik said:


> BJ
> I don't think that it will cost less money
> 
> 1 HP = 746 Watts
> ...


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

In addition to what Cassie just told you there is a real world advantage in going with 220, it will cost you less. In theory it should cost the same, but the way our meters work is by sensing the current draw. The bottom line is the meter sees an unbalanced 16 amps or a balanced 8 amps, get the picture?


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

bobj3 said:


> Hi niki
> 
> "It's fine to disagree with other members as long as you respect their opinions."
> MIKE
> ...


Sorry Bob/ Mike but this is a case of scientific fact not opinion.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Harry

But Harry you guys still drive on the wrong side of the road    and drive upside down...down under..   and do most things backwards  

Bj


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## lablover (May 15, 2007)

Niki..Thanks for taking the time

Update:::

I wired the 220..>Runs like a champ. Niki..WOW, lots of reading and I'm almost asshamed to say I'm still confused about the pipe size.

Lets say my shop size is 20x20. I was going to run one main line diag or accross the shop then run 4" pipe from that to the tools.

Now, If I'm reading your notes correct...Maybe thats not a good idea..Bigger pipe..longer run..Loss of flow??? Not sure I got that part right.

4" would be easier for everything. One main 4" pipe the 4" to all the tools..say 3-4 big chip makers.

Darn...Now I'm really confused. I can say I did hook it to the new router table and WOW...Ran some dovetails etc and not a chip to be found in the cabinet as well as on the top.

Joe

BTW..I appreciate all the help


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Mike said:


> In addition to what Cassie just told you there is a real world advantage in going with 220, it will cost you less. In theory it should cost the same, but the way our meters work is by sensing the current draw. The bottom line is the meter sees 16 amps or 8 amps, get the picture?


Are you sure Mike, I always thought that the meters read kilowatt hours not current.


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## cbsjoez1935 (Mar 14, 2007)

Wow, what a bunch of good information. Here is my two cents. Don't confuse direct current formulae with those that apply to phase driven (AC) current. They are not the same. Let's make this simple. In my area using 110V and 14 Ga. copper wire requires a 15 Amp breaker, under normal conditions. All kitchen wiring is required to have 12 Ga. copper wire fused with a 20 Amp breaker, because of the high current draw of appliances, excluding the electric stove, which requires 220V, 40 amp and 6-8ga. copper wire. For a shop, with nice power tools, 220V is the way to go and 10 Ga. copper wire should suffice. You can split the 220 for tools that will only handle 110V.

Joe


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## simplenik (Feb 14, 2006)

Hi BJ

I'm sorry but I disagree with you, the thickness of the wire to be used depends solely on the Amperes that it has to carry.

Please have a look at this site, Its the "American wire gauge", roll down and you will see a table, you will see that the voltage is not mentioned at all. the only thing that changes with 230V is the wire insulation that have to be better than the 110V.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_wire_gauge

In a sense, Electricity, Hydraulic, Pneumatics etc. are Energy and behave the same.

The Voltage is the electric "Pressure" and the Ampere is the electric "Flow"

Please let me give you an example;
You have a water pressure source that can give a pressure of 30 PSI.
Now, take a hose with face area of 1²" and check how many Gallons per minute (GPM) this hose can transfer, lets say that it was 5 Gallons. Now, change the hose to 2²" area and measure again, you will see that much more GPM...actually double, with the same 30 PSI.

It's the same with electricity, If you have a "110V of Pressure" and you have to operate a machine that requires "5A of flow" you need small area of " Wire or Hose".
But if you want to operate a machine that requires "15A of flow", you shall need bigger area "Wire or Hose". 

If you increase the "Voltage=Pressure" to "220V= PSI" you shall need half of the "Ampere or flow" to get the same level of work (HP) from the machine.

As Joe said, for the kitchen you use 220V, 40A and AWG 6 or 8, not because of the 220V but, because of the 40A. You could use 110V for the electric stove but, it will require 80A to give you the same "work" and if you supply 440V, you would need only 20A to get the same "Work" from the stove.

I'm sorry but even in USA the "Electric Bill" is calculated as per Kilowatt/hour.
Copy/Past from the website:
"Electricity bills, however, are frequent and unavoidable. The dollar amount charged each month is a function of the price per kilowatthour (kWh) and the amount of kilowatthours consumed; other add-ons to your bill include State and local taxes and costs for maintaining reliability."
http://www.eia.doe.gov/neic/brochure/electricity/electricity.html

Respectfully
niki


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## Joe Lyddon (Sep 11, 2004)

Niki,

Thank you for the 'simple' and clear description... 

It's so much easier to understand when we have a good teacher.


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## simplenik (Feb 14, 2006)

Hi Joe (Lablover)

Sorry, for the somewhat late reply but all this electricity...

I'm far from being an expert it DC systems so I cannot advise you if to use 4" or 6" and I hope that somebody more knowledgeable than me will pop in.

I can give you a general guide on how to get maximum efficiency from your system;
Keep the piping as short as possible
Avoid sharp turns of the pipes and hoses
Use smooth inner surface pipes as much as you can
Keep all the unused outlets closed tight
Check and clean the filter(s) frequently

Some interesting point;
If you will close all your inlets, you will here the motor increasing it's RPM, almost screaming.
Many people thinks that they are going to "cook" the motor, the opposite is the true, what happen is that, because there is no airflow through the Fan or Impeller, it's easier for the Fan to turn and it increases it's RPM and if you will check the Amperes, you will see a drop.
The same will occur when the filter is clogged.

Best Regards and enjoy your new DC
niki


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## lablover (May 15, 2007)

Thanks Niki....Outstanding!

Joe


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi niki

Let me see if I got this right ? VAC SYSTEM

If I push the clutch in on my truck and take the load off it and let it run at the same RPM or higher than it was running with the load it will Not damage the eng. if I don't get the RPM's to come back down.

ALL homes in the states can have 220/240 volts but can't have any more than that.
And all hvy. duty app. must be wire for 220 and use a 30,40,50,etc. amp breaker the norm at the load box with a 200 amp. service the norm.
And must be wired to a code and if it's not you can not get power turned on..


Bj


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## Cassandra (Mar 15, 2006)

simplenik said:


> I'm sorry but even in USA the "Electric Bill" is calculated as per Kilowatt/hour.
> Copy/Past from the website:
> "Electricity bills, however, are frequent and unavoidable. The dollar amount charged each month is a function of the price per kilowatthour (kWh) and the amount of kilowatthours consumed; other add-ons to your bill include State and local taxes and costs for maintaining reliability."
> http://www.eia.doe.gov/neic/brochure/electricity/electricity.html
> ...


Hi niki:

A bit of a slip-up in your statement. 

In North America (USA and Canada), electricity bills are based on kilowatthours. as you stated. This is not kilowatts divided by hours but is kilowatts times hours. A kilowatthour is not equal to a kilowatt/hour. 

Now, for the others: how accurate is the meter on the wall? Depends on the construction of the meter. These meters must measure both the current and the voltage to determine the kilowatts being used. Then the meter sums the kilowatts across the span of time to arrive at the kilowatthours used. 

The meters should accommodate an imbalance on the two live wires, without errors in calculating the kilowatts. However, this is neither death nor taxes; thus, the imbalance might cause a misreading. Going the 230V route ensures that the imbalance is not increased by the load.

Basically, the meter integrates the product of voltage and current with respect to time (for you Calculus lovers.) Energy is the first integral, with respect to time, of v(t)*i(t), which is time-varying Power. Energy is Power times Time.

Cassie


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## simplenik (Feb 14, 2006)

BJ
I'm not sure that I understood the Truck thingy but, take your truck a go to some good uphill. 

Climb the hill on the first gear and watch the coolant temperature.
Now, make the same on 3rd or 4th gear and watch the coolant temp.

In the case of 1st gear, you were running the engine on high RPM but the coolant temp will remain low (some increase).

On the 3rd/4th gear you run your engine at low RPM but the coolant temp will increase significantly (if not over-scale).

Cassie
"Kilowatt/hour" and "kilowatthour" are the same just written in different way, please have a look here
http://sigma.ontologyportal.org:4010/sigma/Browse.jsp?kb=SUMO&term=KilowattHour

And here
http://www.hydroquebec.com/residential/energywise/kilowattheure.html

It means that if on your electric instrument/apliance/machine is written 1000 Watts (or 1 KW) and you operate it for one our, you will pay for 1 Kilowatthour without any difference if it uses 110V or 220V.

Or, if Watts or Kilowats are not stated but only Amperes and it written 9.09 Ampere, and you operate it for one hour, you will pay the same amount because 110V x 9.09A = 1000W (or 1KW). Please have a look here
http://www.hydroquebec.com/residential/energywise/pop_outil_calcul.html

But the best explanation is here
http://michaelbluejay.com/electricity/cost.html


From http://michaelbluejay.com/electricity/meters.html
*Does my meter charge me for volts or for watts? Do higher voltage appliances cost more to run? -- Various readers *
_The electric company charges you for watt-hours, not volts. To figure volts you use the fomula Volts x Amps = Watts. A device that runs on 240V will use half as many amps as an identical device that runs at 120V, so the wattage will be the same -- and so will the cost. 

The kinds of appliances that use 240V tend to be energy hogs, like air conditioners and electric clothes dryers, so running those appliances will cost you. It's not because 240V costs more, it's because you're running energy-gobbling appliances._

niki


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi niki

I will agree with most of what you said BUT we can't buy a 110volt 
air conditioners,electric clothes dryers,stove,hot water tanks, etc. in the states 

So we are stuck with 220/240 volt appliances.. is the standard in Japan 220/240 volt ? for most appliances and elec.equipment. ? 
If that's the case why ?

Bj


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## simplenik (Feb 14, 2006)

Hi BJ

You cannot buy some appliances on 110V just because you like it in the "American standard", what I mean is that, Americans like everything to be "King size", big and strong.
The "door by door" refrigerator can store food for a baseball team for one month, the kitchen stove is big like for a restaurant etc. so, they need a lot of Amperage...

In Japan, the standard Voltage is 100V and most of the appliances are working on 100V but they are half or less in size than in USA. The only thing that works on 200V is the Air-condition units and I remember that I was connecting some of the Israeli tools (220V) to the AC wires.

Except the AC units, if you go to any Japanese "Home Center", all the washing machines, dryers, refrigerators etc are all designed for 100V but they are small and consume 15~20 Amperes...Japanese refrigirator size is half of the Israeli size and the Israeli size is, half of the American size.

Japanese washing machines are working on cold water and do not have water heater, so its only the motor that operates on electricity, that makes them, light (most of the parts are made of plastic) and very long lasting and they don't damage the fabrics.

The Kitchen stove is a combined unit that operates on electricity/natural gas and the house water heaters are operated on natural gas. 

By the way, when I left Japan, I took with me all the tools that I bought there and I have a step-down transformer 230V to 100V, 30A to operate them.

Best regards
niki


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

A bit of a slip-up in your statement.

In North America (USA and Canada), electricity bills are based on kilowatthours. as you stated. This is not kilowatts divided by hours but is kilowatts times hours. A kilowatthour is not equal to a kilowatt/hour.
Cassandra,
Is there really such a thing as kilowatts/hour? When an appliance which consumes one kilowatt is switched on it drawes one kilowatt for each second that it remains on, just think about it!


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## simplenik (Feb 14, 2006)

Ok, now I understand where is my "Slip-up", I used "/" instead of saying kilowatt per hour.

I really don't know why they are using the term "Kilowatthour" when actually you are paying for the numbers of kilowatts that you used.

It's like the water company will charge you for "Gallonhour"

I think that behind this term - Kilowatthour - is hiding something that only the Electric company knows, maybe KVAR (Kilo Volt Ampere Reactive)...

niki


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## Bob N (Oct 12, 2004)

Y'all are making me dizzy


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## lablover (May 15, 2007)

Did I mention I'm happy with my new dust collector...LMAO

Wow, lots of info flying around.

You guy are the best

Joe


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## Cassandra (Mar 15, 2006)

simplenik said:


> BJ
> Cassie
> "Kilowatt/hour" and "kilowatthour" are the same just written in different way, please have a look here
> http://sigma.ontologyportal.org:4010/sigma/Browse.jsp?kb=SUMO&term=KilowattHour
> ...


niki:

Interesting that none of the links in your message use the term "kilowatt/hour." 

In simpler terms A/B is not equal to AB. The first term is a division whilst the second term is a multiplication. For example, miles/hour is miles per hour -- distance divided by time. Mileshour is a nonsensical unit that multiplies distance by time.

Here's a couple of links for you:
http://home.golden.net/~kcr/croads/CRoadsEEI.html 
http://home.golden.net/~kcr/croads/CR_SkillsEEI.html

niki, I am an electrical power engineer, trained at the University of Waterloo, in Ontario, Canada. I would know what I am talking about, wouldn't you agree? Your argument that kilowatt/hour is the same as kilowatthour or kilowatt-hour or kilowatt hour is an error that even our (Ontario) elementary students would recognize.

Everyone:

The issue of the meter measuring volts revolves around calculating the kilowatts by measuring volts, amperes and hours and then multiplying the three terms. For a given power, the current is reduced by going to a higher voltage. So, the meter does measure the volts BUT only so that it can calculate the energy (kilowatthours), which is what you billed for.

Cassie


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Niki, I don't understand why you will get only twice the water when going from a one inch pipe to a two inch pipe when the opening size will increase by a factor of four according to the formula pi x rsquared, just wondering. (I don't know how to do symbols)


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## challagan (Feb 7, 2006)

Glad the new DC is working out for you Joe. Having a small shop with no exctraction but 2 shop vacs, it would be nice to have that is for sure. Enjoy it!

Corey


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## simplenik (Feb 14, 2006)

Cassie
Even if I don't agree with you...I must agree with you...

But I do agree with you that the two terms are totally different and I'm not going to give you all the...."what I meant is actually this and that"...just simply admit that I made a mistake...sorry

Harry
I wrote "Face area of 1² inch" and "Face area of 2² inch"
I think that I confused you by saying "hose"...that is normally round...

Regards
niki


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Niki, We must agree to disagree. I do not question your math abilities and I use the same formulas for electrical *theory*. I promise you in actual use 220 motors cost less to run than 110 motors. The higher electromotive force (voltage) in a 220 motor causes it to start up faster than the lower EMF in a 110 motor. This is identical to filling a tire from an air hose. The tire will fill faster at 90 psi than at 45 psi although they use the same volumn of air. In the case of the motor it reaches speed faster at 220 than at 110, and uses the same amount of energy. The difference is the *time* it uses the energy. We are charged not for the amount of energy but for the amount of time we use the energy. When a heavy load is placed on the motor and it has to draw additional power to get back up to speed it does so for a shorter time period on 220 than on 110. Please remember that a motor is an elecro-mechanical device and not like a light bulb where time is not an issue. We are charged not for how many kilowatts we use, but for the actual time we use them, and it *is* less at 220 than it is at 110.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Joe the lablover

I'm glad you are happy with your NEW DC system ,it's nice that you and I can have a 110 volt "door by door" refrigerator full of food in the GREAT USA the land of PLENTY 

I guess that's why so many people want to come to the USA and save money running their DC system on 220 volt ...   

Enjoy your NEW woodworking equipment JOE and I sure you will in this GREAT land of the U.S.A. 

Bj


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## Cassandra (Mar 15, 2006)

Mike said:


> Niki, We must agree to disagree. I do not question your math abilities and I use the same formulas for electrical *theory*. I promise you in actual use 220 motors cost less to run than 110 motors. The higher electromotive force (voltage) in a 220 motor causes it to start up faster than the lower EMF in a 110 motor. This is identical to filling a tire from an air hose. The tire will fill faster at 90 psi than at 45 psi although they use the same volumn of air. In the case of the motor it reaches speed faster at 220 than at 110, and uses the same amount of energy. The difference is the *time* it uses the energy. We are charged not for the amount of energy but for the amount of time we use the energy. When a heavy load is placed on the motor and it has to draw additional power to get back up to speed it does so for a shorter time period on 220 than on 110. Please remember that a motor is an elecro-mechanical device and not like a light bulb where time is not an issue. We are charged not for how many kilowatts we use, but for the actual time we use them, and it *is* less at 220 than it is at 110.


Hey, niki: No sweat. No need to apologize. We all make mistakes (even little ol' me.)

Now it's Mike's time to be corrected.

Mike, do you agree that we are billed for kilowatthours? Guess what. Kilowatthours are units of energy. Energy is the sum of Power times Time. Electrical power is usually measured (in North America) in either Watts (also, milliwatts, kilowatts, megawatts and gigawatts) or Horsepower. 

As for the 220V motors getting up to speed faster than 110V, that may or may not be true. It depends on the configuration of the motors, on the current passing through the motor and on the resistance of the windings. 

Hey, BobJ: Count me as one of the people who are content to live outside of the USA. Although I have been invited by several USA firms to work in the good old USA, I have decided to continue living in my native Canada.

Cassie


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Cassie, you didnt correct me, you supported me. Lets get real specific and use a dust collector that will run on 110 or 220, depending on how it is wired. The same motor will spin up faster on 220 than it will on 110, this is directly a function of the EMF or pressure applied to it. This is identical to the tire analogy. The tire will inflate faster @ 90 psi than it will at 45 psi. The same volumn but less time. For a motor under a heavy load the recovery time is also less. Since we are billed for kilowatt hours we use the same amount of energy but for less time, and any way you slice that; it does cost less. This is applied real world physic's.


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## simplenik (Feb 14, 2006)

Thank you Mike

I don't have the experience nor the knowledge so I tend to believe you.
There are many things that theoretically are "like this" but actually or practically. are "like that".

Maybe Cassie can step in and explain in more in depth.
Edit: at the time that I was replying Cassie cam in - Thanks

BJ
Instead of "Hi Joe the lablover" in had to be "niki"...isn't it 

I know that you are patriot and I salute you for that, the problem is that many people are not so patriots and think more of themselves than for their country.

I think that is was Kennedy that said "Don't think what the country can do for me but, what I can do for my country" (something like that).

And yes, many would like to live in America and if you remember, I told you that I'm turning Green when I see your prices on the Internet.

Personally, I would not like to live in USA (and I have infinite visa D - means, permit to work) but many Israelis and Poles are (one of the demands of the Polish government from USA is "no visa for poles" just to let USA to put missiles on the Polish land).

Regards
niki


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## kp91 (Sep 10, 2004)

Mike,

The cost savings due to that tiny amount of speed change is negligable, probably would take 5 years to see any of it. 

220's greatest advantage in a larger machine is the lower current draw. The higher the current, the more heat generated, the more energy lost and therefore you're paying for what you can't use. That's why transmission lines are high voltage, to cut down on line losses over long distances.

Another advantage of operating a motor designed for 110 and 220 as a 220 motor is the motor will probably last you longer in the long run. This again is due to a decrease in heat inside the motor, which is the big killer of all things electric.

The ship I work on is basically all electric. I've got a 9 Megawatt turbine and a 3 megawatt turbine, each generating 4160 volts, 3phase. We use the 4160 volts to drive our main propulsion motor (12000 hp max) and our cargo and ballast pumps (300/200 hp). 
The advantage of the 4160 is currents are greatly reduced. The cargo pumps at normal load draw 30-35 amps, and as a result, the conductors are about the same diameter as my finger. If we were to run them on 440, they would be drawing 300 amps, and the conductors would be the same size as my wrist. 

Now imagine, the propulsion motor, drawing 1000 amps at 4160, it would be close to 10000 amps at 440.

With that being said, heat losses, or I2R losses, in the winding materials are what are going to save or cost you more depending on 110 or 220. They are created by resistance of the conductors to the flow of current or electrons. the more current you run thru the same size conductor, the more the current causes the conductor molecules to move and produce friction and heat. This 'load' is in addition to whatever work you are trying to get out of the tool, and is part of the motors overall efficiency.

Since power = volts x amps, and volts = amps x resistance, power = (amps)squared x resistance. Cutting your amps by using a 220 volt circuit will seriously reduce the amount of power lost in your dust collectors power cord and motor windings. 

I still don't think these savings will be noticable at the meter, but the tool will probably last longer. You can also make your tools last longer and run more efficently by reducing the losses in your extension cords by keeping them short, and using larger gage (10 or 12) for your bigger tools.


The motor picture- the shaft is 22 inches in diameter
The bar pictures- conductors to the cargo pump switchpanel- 1000amp feeder
The lightning pictures- a whole lot of volts, very scary in my line of work...


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## Cassandra (Mar 15, 2006)

Hi niki:

You're welcome.

And, yes, I believe President Kennedy said, "Don't ask what your country can do for you, but ask what you can do for your country."



Doug, thanks for the pix and the additional info.

Cassie


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Doug, there is more than one way to skin a cat. There is also more than one way to increase efficiency. Time can be our best friend or worst enemy. Electrical peaks can also become spikes which are sure killers as in your lightning bolt. Let us use an aircraft as an example. Aircraft use 110 VAC. Yes, there are step down transformers for the various components, but the high power items are run on 110. Our old friend Time is the key to increasing effiency; by being run faster than normal household appliances we get smoother performance, less heat, fewer spikes and better results. The answer in this case is that aircraft power is 400 Hz as opposed to the North American standard of 60 Hz. The point I am trying to make is the fact that Time makes a difference in any electrical formula. The formula also changes when we introduce other factors such as mechanical ability, varied loads and heat. There is also the problem of dirty power. (Electrical feedback in the system caused by equipment.) Dirty power is why we can find voltages between neutral and ground.
Any master electrician will tell you that a balanced system has the cleanest power and costs less to operate. Clean power also means fewer repairs due to spikes. This is all real world stuff that is not always accounted for in engineering. (This is not an insult) If you doubt my word on this hook up a 220 VAC buzz box welder on a breaker next to the one that runs your computer. After you have replaced your power supply a couple times you will give my opinion stronger consideration. The best performance of a 220 VAC device with a motor is obtained by attaching the mains to each leg of the 220 VAC. This means two circuit breakers. An engineer figured out for _most_ applications using a double pole breaker on one leg would work fine. It is also easier to reset one breaker if there is a problem. If this was the best way then both legs would be attached to the same side of the box creating a steadier, more stable voltage with higher current capacity. In the real world it is not the best way. This is why our circuit boxes have two legs with a neutral in the center. Drawing evenly from both sides produces the best results. Master Electricians design their circuits to take best advantage of the balanced power. This is cleaner power with fewer spikes and is the most efficient.
Now, if you use an electronic wattmeter you will get more accurate readings than if you use an electro-mechanical meter. Why is this? First off the mechanical meter uses energy. There are moving parts that can effect the performance of the meter. The meter is actually a small motor, and is effected by dirt, temperature, etc., just like any other motor. This is the type of meter used in most of North America. The older your meter the less likely you are to be charged accurately for the power you use. (This holds true of any mechanical meter; be it water, gas or electric) As performance degrades over time you are charged for less than you actually use. This is why meters are periodicly replaced. Both my gas and water meters have been replaced within the last year.(Drat!) My house still has the origonal electric meter installed in the late 40's. I am in no hurry to have it replaced.
Nobody has questioned my statement about the tire filling faster @ 90 psi as opposed to 45 psi. More pressure = faster result. More EMF = faster result in a electro-mechanical device like a motor. The only question not answered is how much Time is actually saved? A small but measureable amount. When does Time matter in our cost of electricity? At start up? During use when a heavy load is applied? We know more power is required at start up and under a heavy load to bring the motor back up to speed, so the answer is simple: Time always matters because it is the key to how we are charged. Time is the hour part of Kilowatt hour. It is the multiplier. We know for a fact that the same amount of energy is being used. In a light bulb or an electronic circuit there is no additional factor of mechanical energy so Time is not an issue. In a motor mechanical energy is included and it effects the formula. There is mechanical resistance to overcome. We also know heat causes resistance to increase. The higher current draw in a 110 motor means more heat generated which guarantees more power is required. Since the 220 motor uses 1/2 the current the amount of heat generated is less.(It should be half) You can test this by holding your hand over the identical motor wired at different voltages. With any electrical or electronic devices running cooler means longer life. That alone would suggest it is better to run your motor at the higher voltage. Pressure and its relationship to time still holds true. The tire inflates faster and the higher voltage motor spins up faster, both with the same amount of energy. Using the same amount of energy for less time means less kilowatt hours. It's physics.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Gentlemen,in an effort to bring this robust discussion to a conclusion, I have discussed the comparative cost of using motors on 110 and 220 volts with several university graduates in electrical and electronic engineering and been told that there could be an increase in cost using 110 because of extra losses due to the higher current, BUT, any such difference in price would be negligible.
My analogy would be audio and video equipment, if instrumentation was required to compare two items, then the difference would not be discernable to the prospective buyer.

In summary it would appear that EVERYONE is correct, so no apologies are required!


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## Cassandra (Mar 15, 2006)

harrysin said:


> A bit of a slip-up in your statement.
> 
> In North America (USA and Canada), electricity bills are based on kilowatthours. as you stated. This is not kilowatts divided by hours but is kilowatts times hours. A kilowatthour is not equal to a kilowatt/hour.
> Cassandra,
> Is there really such a thing as kilowatts/hour? When an appliance which consumes one kilowatt is switched on it drawes one kilowatt for each second that it remains on, just think about it!


Hi Harrysin:

Yes, there is a thing called kilowatts/hour. It represents the change in power levels with respect to time. For example, if a power load starts at 1 kilowatt now and increases over the next three hours to 10 kilowatts, then one can say that the power load increased on average at the rate of 3.3333 kilowatts/hour. 

Other than being a rate of change, I don't believe it has any significance.

Cassie


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