# Aternate to Treated Wood



## tomp913 (Mar 7, 2014)

I'm making another planter and the treated wood is fighting me the whole way. The first two that I made were short delivery so I used the wood "wet" as picked up at Lowes - and cried about it the whole time. Cutting out the body parts isn't too bad, but drilling pocket holes in wet wood is a trip. Likewise cutting out the legs, head, etc. on the bandsaw and then cleaning them up on a spindle sander. So this time I decided to let the wood dry out a little and bought it over a week ahead of time. Seems though the body parts started drying out quicker once they were cut to size and have moved all over the place. I'm thinking about making them from something other than treated wood, but I don't see much in the way of alternates - cedar or redwood -in the lumber yards here in MD, and I'm thinking that the cost is going to be a lot higher. I was looking at the idea of making them out of non-treated 2x's and coating them with a water repellant http://www.amazon.com/Rust-Oleum-902-Wolman-Classic-Preservative-Above/dp/B001DZD9DQ before giving them a coat of exterior poly. Any comments or other suggestions? BTW I cut pads from a vinyl 1x3 and put them under the feet so that standing water doesn't wick into the wood, even with treated.


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## DonkeyHody (Jan 22, 2015)

I'm sure you thought about Trex, but its about 3X the cost and doesn't really look like wood. I don't think untreated wood will last long in a planter. Do-it-yourself treatments don't have a very good track record.


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## Semipro (Mar 22, 2013)

iTom
I am assume that you are putting pots in the planters, in that case use untread lumber, then coat them with linseed oil or other type product. They would last for years, they are off the ground so if they get wet they would dry.


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## tomp913 (Mar 7, 2014)

Thanks for the input
@DonkeyHody

The material needs to be 1-1/2" thick which rules out Trex, plus not sure you can cut the bevels on the edges.
@Semipro

Yes, a potted plant goes in the center.

I did a search and there's a vendor up in PA (about 2 hours away) that carries knotty grade cedar in 2x4 and 2x6 - also need 2x8, but I could maybe work around that - I'll give them a call tomorrow.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

2 things about treated lumber Tom. #1- Treating lumber is a way for manufacturers to get more money for marginal quality lumber that they would have trouble getting rid of or having to sell cheap in most cases. It is rarely if ever made from top quality wood.
#2- the dryer the wood is the more preservative it sucks up which adds cost so they don't want it dry when they treat it.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

I make a lot of outdoor objects out of redwood. Not all that expensive, very soft. Eventually could break down, but I've had some of it in place outdoors, untreated and unfinished for more than a decade. Sort through to find the clearest material you can find. Local HD has them up to 8 inches wide. Put pots in and they'll surely last longer.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

tomp913 said:


> Yes, a potted plant goes in the center.
> 
> I did a search and there's a vendor up in PA (about 2 hours away) that carries knotty grade cedar in 2x4 and 2x6 - also need 2x8, but I could maybe work around that - I'll give them a call tomorrow.


consider western red cedar... or pick your own...
1x's if necessary...
spline/biscuit and peg more...
nail on rubber feet.. helps w/ the drying..
lots of water lets..









.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

plan ''B'' for the feet...

.


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## hawkeye10 (Jul 28, 2015)

What about Kiln dried pressure treated wood. There will be someone in your area that carries it or can get it. You will not find it at the big box stores. Cost, I don't know.

ProWood kiln dried after treatment lumber (KDAT) - ProWood Lumber


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## ejgoerner (Jan 31, 2013)

I am in Maryland Try Free State timbers in Baltimore county I tried to send a link but have not made more than 10 post

are the planter for the TERPS


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

+1 for red cedar and oil...but

If you're thinking of poly, I would go for a marine spar varnish instead..or Sikkens Light... moves better with the wood


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## hawkeye10 (Jul 28, 2015)

Nickp said:


> +1 for red cedar and oil...but
> 
> If you're thinking of poly, I would go for a marine spar varnish instead..or Sikkens Light... moves better with the wood


That depends on what kind of cedar. Western cedar would be okay but cedar that grows here in Tennessee would not be a good choice unless you use just the red part. The white part will not last. The thing about western cedar is finding it thick enough. What I see in the big box stores would have to be surfaced because it's rough. Also I don't think it would lend it self to pocket hole joinery because it's soft and splits. I might be wrong because I found out last week I didn't know it all. :surprise: :frown: :smile:


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

DesertRatTom said:


> I make a lot of outdoor objects out of redwood. Not all that expensive, very soft. Eventually could break down, but I've had some of it in place outdoors, untreated and unfinished for more than a decade. Sort through to find the clearest material you can find. Local HD has them up to 8 inches wide. Put pots in and they'll surely last longer.


WRC and Redwood are 1st choices here...


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Been thinking about treated wood, no one mentioned but the treatment is arsenic and the sawdust is very nasty stuff to inhale. Hope you are using a good respirator, not just a mask. I would NEVER cut that stuff in the shop. You should probably look for redwood with long, straight grain by picking through a stack. If its too wet, stack it with weights to help keep it flat. I have found most of the redwood at HD has been quite straight compared to the pine. With redwood, use coarse pocket screws. Redwood is pretty friendly to water. Look for the reddish heartwood, it will give you a nice contrast. Marine spar, water resistant finish might be good, but many people like the look of aged redwood in the garden. Not sure how redwood glues up, but a waterproof glue sounds like a good idea, but I'd think spline if I were going to make something like the turtle. Just cut the spline with the base of the piece down every time. It will line up easily. Pocket screws to line up and connect the layers, or pin to hold in place and drill a 3/8ths deep hole and connect all with 3 or 4 dowels.

Just thinkin'.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

The older treated lumber was CCA which stood for chromated copper arsenate and it was very toxic. The newer stuff here is ACQ and I'm not sure what that stands for but it has all the same warnings. Don't breathe the sawdust, wear eye protection, wear gloves, and don't burn the off cuts.


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## frankr4ever (Jan 12, 2012)

I have made a lot of outdoor furniture etc.out of Cypress wood which I have been told is natures pressure treated wood.


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## old coasty (Aug 15, 2014)

hawkeye10 said:


> That depends on what kind of cedar. Western cedar would be okay but cedar that grows here in Tennessee would not be a good choice unless you use just the red part. The white part will not last. The thing about western cedar is finding it thick enough. What I see in the big box stores would have to be surfaced because it's rough. Also I don't think it would lend it self to pocket hole joinery because it's soft and splits. I might be wrong because I found out last week I didn't know it all. :surprise: :frown: :smile:


I used pocket holes in the planter bench I showed last September. However it was all cross grain, and treated gently when snugging up the screws which were Stainless, got no splits. I have my doubts about end grain holding up well even if it did't split. Planter bench going through it's second winter now without any problems.


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## senebraskaee (Apr 29, 2012)

+1 on Cypress but it is hard to find and often not very attractive. Redwood is non-existent anymore here in Nebraska although I used to build decks from it in the 70's and loved working with it.


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## tomp913 (Mar 7, 2014)

Thanks for all the suggestions, I wasn't aware that they sold KD pressure treated wood, and found some at HD. The surface is a little damp, but nowhere like the stuff I had so hopefully this is going to work for me. 

I don't think that they've used CCA for years - developed by Koppers, my employer for 19 years until they sold us off - and the new products used is way less toxic. What I bought was Yellawood, here's the MSDS on what they use http://www.yellawood.com/media/103162/254-kpc_mca_treated_wood-sds_us-english_rev2.pdf 

The pocket screws I use are really just to hold everything together until the glue dries - and so I don't have to mess with band clamps. I use Titebond III, and "seal" the joint face with a light coat of glue before final assembly. I coated the last one with left-over Olympic Deck Sealer, probably use the same this time too.

I didn't check into the one vendor up in PA about the cedar, I'll see how this KD wood works out for me first as I think that the PT wood is probably the best product for the application.

Thanks again everyone.


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## Ghidrah (Oct 21, 2008)

Tomp913,

Very clever design, I may have to steal it for my own diabolical designs. I'll probably go fir for the top and PT for the legs. Know that outside of the PT treatment adding tons of liquid to the wood, current SYP used for PT lumber is of the fast growth type and not forested with intentions of furniture in mind outside of rustic picnic tables, the grain goes in all directions.

I still have some very old PT salvaged from decks and such built in the 80s, in general the wood doesn't stay still without massive amounts of screws, water resistant glues and lots of paint. The table pic below I put together in the fall of 2014 with 33 yrs old PT 5/4 decking over 50 SST screws, a pint of TB3 glue and a half gallon of HD decking paint so far so good but it has no fine joints.

The 2nd pic, (railing design) on the deck design wood comes from same period, it's been in place for nearly 15 yrs and the opposite side faces south. At 1st it was held together with the expanding Gorilla glue, but due to the weather and SYPs character the joints opened up and one of the sections fell out. I re-glued pieces as they fell out I eventually had to SST screw the crap out of it, (opposite side). The joints appear tight because of all the rain we've had the last week.


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## tomp913 (Mar 7, 2014)

DesertRatTom said:


> I make a lot of outdoor objects out of redwood. Not all that expensive, very soft. Eventually could break down, but I've had some of it in place outdoors, untreated and unfinished for more than a decade. Sort through to find the clearest material you can find. Local HD has them up to 8 inches wide. Put pots in and they'll surely last longer.


Thanks, all I could find on a quick check was 5/8 or 3/4" thick for fences. The KD PT was all I could find in a hurry.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Hey, Tom; I hope you used stainless steel or the approved ACQ screws! The ACQ treatment eats steel...fast.
The only other approved fastener material is Hot Dipped galvanized.
Others have already mentioned the removal of Arsenic from the treatment process (retail; I think it's still available to industrial applications).
If you don't thoroughly treat each end cut, you may as well not even bother using PT lumber. It doesn't normally penetrate right through, so any cuts expose untreated material, ripe for rot to get started.

If you can find solvent based exterior stain, just add a little Zinc Napthanate to it (10?), or pretreat with the Zinc Napth., before staining.
As long as the bottom of the turtle has really good drainage you should be golden.


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## DonkeyHody (Jan 22, 2015)

frankr4ever said:


> I have made a lot of outdoor furniture etc.out of Cypress wood which I have been told is natures pressure treated wood.


Cypress is plentiful and cheap here. However, the cypress that is being cut today is not as rot resistant as it used to be when they were cutting 200 year old trees. I've made a couple of generations of outdoor furniture from cypress. It'll last 10 years outdoors before rot overcomes it. Under a shed, indefinitely.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

tomp913 said:


> Thanks for all the suggestions, I wasn't aware that they sold KD pressure treated wood, and found some at HD. The surface is a little damp, but nowhere like the stuff I had so hopefully this is going to work for me.
> 
> I don't think that they've used CCA for years - developed by Koppers, my employer for 19 years until they sold us off - and the new products used is way less toxic. What I bought was Yellawood, here's the MSDS on what they use http://www.yellawood.com/media/103162/254-kpc_mca_treated_wood-sds_us-english_rev2.pdf
> 
> ...


CCA is still used in the marine environment...
ie docks, seawalls, and such...
please make sure your pocket screws are ACQ rated...


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## tomp913 (Mar 7, 2014)

DaninVan said:


> Hey, Tom; I hope you used stainless steel or the approved ACQ screws! The ACQ treatment eats steel...fast.
> The only other approved fastener material is Hot Dipped galvanized.
> Others have already mentioned the removal of Arsenic from the treatment process (retail; I think it's still available to industrial applications).
> If you don't thoroughly treat each end cut, you may as well not even bother using PT lumber. It doesn't normally penetrate right through, so any cuts expose untreated material, ripe for rot to get started.
> ...


Hey Dan,

Yes, I use the coated screws that look as if they're coated with plastic and come in different colors. The galvanizes screws are hard to find around here any more, used to be able to buy in bulk by the pound at lumber yards years ago.

I coat the assembly with deck sealer, really slobber it on - the mitered ends I don't do before assembling the layers because I figured the Titebond won't stick, guess I could coat them as I cut them so they'll be dry at assembly and then use construction adhesive in a tube. The "floor" of the body is two pieces, side by side with a gap between them for drainage (could always punch a couple of holes too), and the feet are sitting on 1-1/2 x 3 pads of 3/4" thick vinyl trim so they're well off the ground. I may get around to making one for myself one day to see how they hold up - although I think the next project is going to be armchairs for the front porch.


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## paduke (Mar 28, 2010)

White oak is an excellent material for outdoor use. I used it for trim boards on my back porch and with the cedar siding. It has rot resistant properties and was used as fence posts years ago. 
Here is a link to a sawyers blog discussing white oak http://www.forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=9534.0


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

dog wood and locust too...


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## hawkeye10 (Jul 28, 2015)

Stick486 said:


> dog wood and locust too...


Locust is the best wood fence post there is.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Tom; you kind of threw me there with the "coloured screw" part.
The only ACQ ones that I've seen are grey-green, brass, or bright green colour.
The Brass coloured ones are really pricey and are identified as being ACQ compatible.
https://www.google.ca/search?q=ACQ+...Tm1ubJAhUQ6GMKHXnkCU4QsAQIGw&biw=1120&bih=524


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## tomp913 (Mar 7, 2014)

DaninVan said:


> Tom; you kind of threw me there with the "coloured screw" part.
> The only ACQ ones that I've seen are grey-green, brass, or bright green colour.
> The Brass coloured ones are really pricey and are identified as being ACQ compatible.
> https://www.google.ca/search?q=ACQ+...Tm1ubJAhUQ6GMKHXnkCU4QsAQIGw&biw=1120&bih=524


I checked, they're called PrimeGuard and have a polymer coating, approved for all treated lumber per the package. I've seen them in green, tan and grey. Shop Grip Rite PrimeGuard Ten 1-lb #10 x 4-in Countersinking-Head Polymer-Coated Phillips Deck Screw at Lowes.com I buy them at Lowes although I think that HD carries something similar.


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## Ghidrah (Oct 21, 2008)

I'm pretty sure each Co has it's own color coding, I've used grip rite, fasten master, they're green and gray although the coatings are different. I prefer SST but understand people that require their fasteners to sorta match the wood color at installation.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Heh...I thought you meant the Rainbow Party Pak, Tom!
I like the Tan coloured ones; not sure who makes them but they seem to be fairly decent. Up here of course they're Robertson head.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Ghidrah said:


> I'm pretty sure each Co has it's own color coding, I've used grip rite, fasten master, they're green and gray although the coatings are different. I prefer SST but understand people that require their fasteners to sorta match the wood color at installation.


the color coding is for wood match.. think wood filler...
grip rite anything should be left on the shelf... their performance sucks...
Pressure Treated Wood and Building Materials Studies and Survey looking at the manufacturing profile of an industry in transition. Areas of analysis include product mix, preservative usage, wood species consumption, gross sales, and employment.

Fasteners made of the “300” series stainless steels, such as; 302, 302HQ, 303, 304, 305 (18-8 types) and 316 should be used in the newer pressure treated wood products.....


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## tomp913 (Mar 7, 2014)

Interesting article. When I filled in underneath my deck with vinyl lattice, I used SS screws sold by the lattice mfg. I take the lattice down every two years when I power-wash and recoat my deck. I'll pay attention to the screw threads when I do this next year to see if there's any signs of corrosion.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

bit more on Stainless steel...


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

All Stainless is not the same, some stainless stains wood.

HJerb


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Herb Stoops said:


> All Stainless is not the same, some stainless stains wood.
> 
> HJerb


200 series..


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## tomp913 (Mar 7, 2014)

So far, so good, looks like the Yellawood is going to work out OK. Just to be sure, I'm going to get the pieces glued and screwed together before anything starts to move. But it looks as if I have the 22-1/2° setting on the saw nailed, although I think there's a little wobble in the bearings - not bad for 25 years of hard work, a lot of landscape timbers have been under that saw.

FYI The Yellawood still has a little moisture, but nowhere near what you'll typically see from the stuff at Lowes - and I think that there are less knots too. One thing I did notice - I had to put them on a little bit of a diagonal to close the tailgate on the truck. Didn't really think about it, but realized why when they measured out at 97". I'm going to buy the material for the next ones a little ahead of time and see if I dries out without twisting.

Thanks again everyone for the suggestions.


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## Ghidrah (Oct 21, 2008)

Stick,
For GPs, I never cared for coated screws like fasten master or grip rite, Too many times I had to back them out for whatever reason and noticed the coating missing or worn down on the threads. One Builder/contractor required them and all or most composite decking requires specific fasteners for warranty. Considering the cost MEH!

Incredible but true story.
Apparently some of the older and or less rigidly manufactured SST wasn't, and I would never have even considered it if it wasn't for a customer with a severe case of OCD. Just so there is a clear understanding as I was prepping to leave the job one day I witnessed Dan collecting rocks from his graveled driveway and placing them in a cigar box. I couldn't help myself so I asked why, his answer was they don't match.

Even though by the late 90s I was already using SST for weather exposed structures within 3 miles from the coast, (unless specified different by contract) Dan was adamant on the SST fasteners and required that he be able to test all fasteners prior to use for magnetism. I'm guessing even if it looked like it might move when the magnet passed he would have pulled it out. When he was done all the screws were back in the boxes and all were facing the same direction.


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