# Router bits, and laminated hardwood plywood...UGH...



## tobnpr (Feb 5, 2013)

I posted my first thread here a while back after setting up a router duplicator for gunstocks and I received some helpful advice.

Well, with a couple dozen under my belt now, I'm more adept at the technique- and have discovered that round nose, or core box bits really aren't necessary despite it all being radiused. A 1/2", straight bit conforms well enough- and sanding fine tunes the rest.

The "problem" (it may just be reality) is bit life...

When working hardwoods- walnut, and had a customer send me three cherry wood blanks to cut- the bits cut fine; getting large shavings off the bit as I climb-cut my way across the blank.

It's the laminated wood that's giving me fits. After just one stock, it's nothing but dust coming off the bit. The amount of material removed on each pass is reduced, and so it takes many more passes- and thus time- to work around all 360 degrees of rotation.

Am I correct in assuming it's the glue with so many layers of plywood that's killing me here? I'm using Freud bits, mostly out of convenience because they're readily available at HD. Anyone think I'd see a significant difference in life expectancy with Whiteside- and are there any other "tips" to extend the life of the cutter beyond a few stocks?

Appreciate the advice!


----------



## TinyTiger (Mar 9, 2013)

Mike - It sounds like it is indeed bit wear, and those manmade materials are tough on bits. Most of the Freud Bits HD sells these days seem to be their "Diablo" Line which is made for construction use (check your bit package to verify this). If so, the amount of carbide is different than the Freud "Industrial" Line, Whiteside, or any of the other premium brands. You will probably see quite a bit of difference in life with a premium bit.


----------



## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Mike, life expectancy in a typical home shop is the purpose of the router bit testing we have under way. Next month will be the first check in from everyone who is participating.

I suggest you try a Whiteside bit. I have had very good luck with the ones I use. Don't toss out the old Freud bit, you can have it sharpened for less than the cost of a new bit. When you have a few that need to be sharpened send them in as a batch, this will usually reduce the cost.


----------



## tobnpr (Feb 5, 2013)

Didn't know I could have them sharpened, Mike... Where would I send them? I Have a half dozen already (various types).

Tiny- didn't know HD had their "house" Freud brand- but it doesn't surprise me. Reminds me of the Bostich framing nailgun I bought there once. Took it to my tool repair guy when it needed seals, and he told me that it wasn't repairable! A cheapo Bostich, that wasn't really a Bostich. Shame how some of these companies sacrifice their quality to meet a price point.

I just used one of the 1/4" bits for inletting- and the darn thing barely cut. It literally burned up- blackened metal from overheating- in a minute. I've got a cheap Ryobi bit I've had for months that still cuts better than that one new out of the box. I don't know if they turn out lemons occasionally, but that one's going back.

Where's the best price online to order Whiteside?


----------



## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

tobnpr said:


> Didn't know I could have them sharpened, Mike... Where would I send them? I Have a half dozen already (various types).
> 
> Tiny- didn't know HD had their "house" Freud brand- but it doesn't surprise me. Reminds me of the Bostich framing nailgun I bought there once. Took it to my tool repair guy when it needed seals, and he told me that it wasn't repairable! A cheapo Bostich, that wasn't really a Bostich. Shame how some of these companies sacrifice their quality to meet a price point.
> 
> ...


Diablo is not an HD "house brand", by the way. A quality bit will certainly last longer, but plywood will still dull them faster than many hardwoods.


----------



## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Plywood glue is hard on bits. You might have some success from slowing the rpm down some. Make sure the bit doesn't build a residue from the glue or pitch. That buildup builds heat. You may be able to extend the life of the bits a little by honing them with a diamond hone. I used to find them at sporting stores that sold archery gear in particular as they are handy for sharpening broadheads. They sell for under $10. Get the fine or extra fine.


----------



## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Mike, this is the reason we ask members to give us some information in their profiles... to direct them to services or good deals. You can check your Yellow Pages for tool sharpening. Many machine shops can sharpen tools. Many Woodcraft stores have a drop off service or you can send them to Whiteside Machine and let the router bit Pro's sharpen them.

Keeping your bits free of any build up really helps reduce heat which kills router bits. I use and highly recommend Trend Tool and Bit cleaner. List is about $12 for a good sized bottle.

Reducing the bit speed can also help but some materials just tear up bits. They are cutting tools and like a good knife they need to be sharpened on a regular basis.


----------



## TinyTiger (Mar 9, 2013)

Dmeadows said:


> Diablo is not an HD "house brand", by the way. A quality bit will certainly last longer, but plywood will still dull them faster than many hardwoods.


Duane is absolutely right (sorry for the possibly confusing sentence structure). Diablo is a line of Freud Bits aimed at contractors according to one of their company sales people I talked to. The Freud Industrial Line is their more premium line. I agree with Mike, though. Whiteside Bits seem to work really well.


----------



## tobnpr (Feb 5, 2013)

Thanks again for the input.
Another question, regarding heat buildup...
The progression in finding the "right" type bits, and the sequence to use them, has been an evolution. As I mentioned in my very first post, I started with round nose bits. Worked terribly for bulk wood removal, because the contact area of the bit is so small.

So I went to a 3/4" cutter, 1/2" shank and it worked very well. But, being 3/4" it doesn't conform as well to a radius as the 1/2" I now use does.

But I couldn't find the 1/2" cutter, in 1/2" shank at HD so I got the 1/4" shank.

It's chucked all the way up into the router, so I'm not getting any chatter. But the idea of heat transfer occurred to me. Is there a difference in longevity with the same bit in 1/4" shank vs. 1/2"? Sorry about the stupid questions...


----------



## demographic (Aug 12, 2012)

I don't even know if they make them so please excuse my ideas which might be way off the mark but...

I've used a Polycrystalline diamond tipped ripsaw blade for cutting cement boards before, normal tungsten carbide tipped ripsaw blades (including multicut blades) were only lasting about two hours worth of cuts making sidings for a building. Using the PCd tipped blade (which cost about a hundred and sixty quid admittedly) and I still have it after another week and a half's worth of cuts. 
Amazing thing and so much more abrasion resistant that Tungsten Carbide that it was a revelation.
One thing though, with normal TCT ripsaw blades I can let the blade stick through the cut and it not really matter, with the PCD tipped blades the instructions clearly said NOT to let the blade protrude further than 1mm through the material being cut.

So, my thoughts are... Do they make PCD router bits and if so are they any use in this application?


----------



## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

demographic said:


> I don't even know if they make them so please excuse my ideas which might be way off the mark but...
> 
> I've used a Polycrystalline diamond tipped ripsaw blade for cutting cement boards before, normal tungsten carbide tipped ripsaw blades (including multicut blades) were only lasting about two hours worth of cuts making sidings for a building. Using the PCd tipped blade (which cost about a hundred and sixty quid admittedly) and I still have it after another week and a half's worth of cuts.
> Amazing thing and so much more abrasion resistant that Tungsten Carbide that it was a revelation.
> ...


Yes they do make PCD router bits. They might make a difference. Someone who would know would be Fred, known as "Onsrudcutter2010" who is a member of the forum and sells Onsrud bits. I haven't seen him participate in while but he could be private messaged.


----------



## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

I now have many of his bits ( THEY ARE GREAT) and some of his saw blades..

High Speed Steel Router Bits, Solid Carbide Router Bits items in LMT Onsrud Router Bits and Blades store on eBay!

==


----------



## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

from Diamond Router Bits - Router Bit Guide 

Polycrystalline Diamond (PCD) Router Bits


Excellent tool life in abrasive materials (up to 200 times longer than carbide), high initial cost, lower overall sharpening and maintenance cost, less machine downtime due to replacing dull tooling, brittle; excellent for long router bit runs in material where the router bit isn’t likely to break or get damaged prematurely. *An automatic feed machine is necessary (eg. CNC Router) to prevent tool breakage, any sudden jerking motion can shatter the brittle PCD diamond*. Limited profile selection, many times custom router bits.

Emphasis is mine. I'm sure there are applications where they are the best answer. Don't think general routing is one of them. YMMV.


----------



## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

bobj3 said:


> I now have many of his bits ( THEY ARE GREAT)
> 
> High Speed Steel Router Bits, Solid Carbide Router Bits items in LMT Onsrud Router Bits and Blades store on eBay!
> 
> ==


Me too. I also bought some of his miter saw blades and they are the sharpest I have ever used. The cuts look like they have been planed.


----------



## Knothead47 (Feb 10, 2010)

FWIW, I used to work for Fastenal. They had a tool sharpening service. Don't recall if they did things like router bits. Give them a call or check their website.


----------



## tobnpr (Feb 5, 2013)

Boy... *DID* I get me an "edumacation" today....

I saw Chuck's post at the top and the mention of Onsrud...
So, I called them...

The stars must have been aligned. I asked for tech support, and got a gentleman by the name of Bill. I began to explain my questions (feeling kind of stupid due to my ignorance on this subject, but hey- everyone starts somewhere) and problems I was having. He informed me that, as a matter of coincidence- he has a large, multi-spindle Terrco machine so was able to speak directly to the issues of that particular application of router bits.

First thing he said regarding PCB- as Dmeadows also stated in bold- is that these suckers are designed for very high feed rates- they'd never work on a manual machine.

As I said, I learned the basics, which I wish I had knowledge of from the get-go. Now that have an understanding of how things are supposed to work, I have a basis on which to proceed.

I had no idea that every router bit has a "chip load" that needs to be met for proper performance, and how to calculate the required feed rate. I had never so much as heard of, or seen, single-flute bits which are the most suitable for the low feed rates on these manual machines. He also enlightened me to the use of HSS bits- I had always assumed carbide was better- for very low feed rates. 

It really does help to have an understanding of basic metallurgy here...that it's the chips flying off the bit, that dissipate the heat. A bit resting against the wood, spinning but not cutting- not a good thing. Friction= heat, heat destroys the carbide...and that HSS is actually better for very low speed, low feed rate with little material being removed.

My education in metallurgy continues...and I'm ordering some single-flute bits from Onsrud. Will let all of you know how it goes...

Oh yeah...he gave me a link to a pretty incredible machine. If you haven't seen a multi-axis duplicator, well this is as close as you can get to a 4 axis CNC without the price tag (though, I bet this sucker is far from "cheap").

I can't post links yet, but check out the Clone 4D duplicator...


----------



## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

Here you go, Mike. Just one more post is all you need!

Clone 4D Copy Carver - The Most Versatile Router Duplicator On The Market

$5600 USD, shipped! It is a cool machine, though!


----------



## tobnpr (Feb 5, 2013)

Noticed in the video the guy's got no respirator.
Can't tell from the hoodie, but probably deaf by now, too...


----------



## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

I'm glad you decided to give Onsrud a call. I learned something too. I knew they would be to tell you feed rate, bit depth, etc. I've seen some good deals on eBay for HSS bitstream from Onsrud. I may have to reconsider about them.


----------



## TinyTiger (Mar 9, 2013)

Thanks for the great info Mike! I hadn't heard a lot of that before. Very useful. Looks like I got my Edumacation for today too.


----------

