# Mortice & Tenon or Dovetail



## knickam (Aug 31, 2015)

Starting to think about making a cabinet for a router table.

The framing will probably be made of oak. 

What would be the preferred method of joining the cross pieces to the vertical legs?


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

mortise and tenon...


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## OPG3 (Jan 9, 2011)

...OF THOSE TWO CHOICES, definitely A

Otis Guillebeau from Auburn, Georgia


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## knickam (Aug 31, 2015)

OPG3 said:


> ...OF THOSE TWO CHOICES, definitely A
> 
> Otis Guillebeau from Auburn, Georgia


Is there a better option than the 2 I mentioned?


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## phillip.c (Aug 9, 2012)

Why not build it like a modern cabinet and omit the oak frame? 

Unless you're referring to a face frame, in which case I'd say brad nails. 

If you still prefer the frame, you could build a plenty strong frame from soft wood.


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## Quillman (Aug 16, 2010)

Sliding dovetails have good pull strength.
But should be reinforced due to their short length.
And mortice and tenon, in a piece that is under a lot of stress, should be reinforced with hardware too.


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## DonkeyHody (Jan 22, 2015)

knickam said:


> Is there a better option than the 2 I mentioned?


If you are talking about a boxy cabinet instead of a simple 4-legged table, then you don't need fancy joints. The box itself is inherently strong. A simple but joint will hold till the cows come home. If you want to add more strength, glue a 3/4 X 3/4 square piece along the inside edges of the box. Save your time-consuming joints for places you really need them . . . unless you just want the experience on cheap wood.


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## OPG3 (Jan 9, 2011)

> Is there a better option than the 2 I mentioned?


"Better" is like Beauty; in that it is in the eye of the Beholder. Of your two initially provided options, IMHO the mortise & tenon is most often seen in a structure with legs as in your original question. There are numerous ways of constructing a cabinet that will fill your needs. Occasionally, there may be reasons that make one joint more desirable than another. Even when using mortise & tenon, one must decide if there are going to be one mortise and one tenon or two mortises and one (loose) tenon. BTW, a tenon is simply a rectangular dowel. Although they aren't often used interchangeably they basically work the same way. One single (round) dowel can rotate, whereas it would be extreme sloppiness if a rectangular tenon were to rotate in situ. 

Pocket holes with appropriate glued and screwed joints come to mind as potential viable options. Another quick thought could be metal bracketed connections. Many things are built with hidden metal brackets - that are extremely strong. Personally, I enjoy developing proficiency with a wide variety of joinery methods, but then I build lots of different types of things with many sorts of materials - on jobsites and prefabricated - whatever provides the ideal finished product. You can ask your questions to many people and get more answers than people that are queried.

Otis Guillebeau from Auburn, Georgia


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

Hey Ian, welcome to the community..

I built my table with pocket holes, going on 6 years old now or so and not a single separation. She remains rock solid...

btw.. this was my first go with pocket holes...so it can be done 

http://www.routerforums.com/140489-post10.html


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

I installed the stretcher on my workbench like Quillman shows in his link, cross dowels and bolts. They are actually fairly easy to do and stronger than the dovetail or mortice and tenon. Plus they can be tightened if the wood should shrink.


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## knickam (Aug 31, 2015)

DonkeyHody said:


> If you are talking about a boxy cabinet instead of a simple 4-legged table, then you don't need fancy joints. The box itself is inherently strong. A simple but joint will hold till the cows come home. If you want to add more strength, glue a 3/4 X 3/4 square piece along the inside edges of the box. Save your time-consuming joints for places you really need them . . . unless you just want the experience on cheap wood.


It is going to be boxed in with drawers.
It is based on a video on youtube of a mobile workbench.
I can't post it yet as my post count is too low.

But working on it:wink:


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## knickam (Aug 31, 2015)

OPG3 said:


> "Better" is like Beauty; in that it is in the eye of the Beholder. Of your two initially provided options, IMHO the mortise & tenon is most often seen in a structure with legs as in your original question. There are numerous ways of constructing a cabinet that will fill your needs. Occasionally, there may be reasons that make one joint more desirable than another. Even when using mortise & tenon, one must decide if there are going to be one mortise and one tenon or two mortises and one (loose) tenon. BTW, a tenon is simply a rectangular dowel. Although they aren't often used interchangeably they basically work the same way. One single (round) dowel can rotate, whereas it would be extreme sloppiness if a rectangular tenon were to rotate in situ.
> 
> Pocket holes with appropriate glued and screwed joints come to mind as potential viable options. Another quick thought could be metal bracketed connections. Many things are built with hidden metal brackets - that are extremely strong. Personally, I enjoy developing proficiency with a wide variety of joinery methods, but then I build lots of different types of things with many sorts of materials - on jobsites and prefabricated - whatever provides the ideal finished product. You can ask your questions to many people and get more answers than people that are queried.
> 
> Otis Guillebeau from Auburn, Georgia


I do want it to look nice, Now that I will have more time to try and make a nice job.


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## knickam (Aug 31, 2015)

Ok got my 10 posts done:wink:

Thanks for all the sugestions. 
My appologies for not being clearer in my initial post about what I was planning to build.

My plan is to build my router cabinet along the lines of this mobile workbench video shown on youtube






There will be a few changes to fit in the router etc, But the main framework will be roughly the same.

In the video he uses the festool domino system, which I don't have and hence my question.

Regarding the tenons, Is there a rule of thumb how much material you cut away?


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

knickam said:


> It is going to be boxed in with drawers.
> It is based on a video on youtube of a mobile workbench.
> I can't post it yet as my post count is too low.
> 
> But working on it:wink:


your post count is good to go now for attaching links...


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

If the drawers are only on one side then the back will keep it square and hold it together. A rail on the front under the top and one at bottom front should be enough to hold it. A mortise and tenon joint would be good for attaching the rails. Putting a piece of ply behind the joint and overlapping it on the stile with glue and screws is also very strong. 

If you are putting drawers on front and back then I would install a panel between them.


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## DonkeyHody (Jan 22, 2015)

knickam said:


> Regarding the tenons, Is there a rule of thumb how much material you cut away?


The width of the mortise should be no more than half the width of the member it's cut into. If you get it too wide, you can blow out the side of the mortise. The mortise can be as long as the tenoned member is wide, but most people put at least a little shoulder on all sides of the tenon to hide the crack. The width of the tenon should be at least 1/3rd of the width of the tenoned member. If you get it too narrow, you can break the tenon off. 

For your cabinet, I'd do as Chuck suggested. Make each leg L-shaped by gluing two flat members edge to face. Then cut your plywood panels large enough to glue on the inside of the legs. They will appear to be floating panels, but since plywood doesn't move like solid wood, they can be firmly attached to the legs. The wide plywood panels will resist wracking forces as well as the best joints. If you have your heart set on making some Mortise & Tenon joints, put them on the rails at the top and bottom of the drawers. Me, I'd go with a glued pocket hole screwed joint and call it a day.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Lose the pedestal feet, Ian. Waste of time and serve no useful purpose.
Räder und Rollen mit gespritztem Polyurethan-Laufbelag , 8-LK-PATH, BK-PATH, BH-PATH


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## greenacres2 (Dec 23, 2011)

When i do a shop cabinet, i take one of two approaches:
a. Cobble together whatever is laying around any way i can (often pocket screwed)
or
b. Use it to learn or improve a specific technique. If i screw it up, it's in the shop anyway, and i'm better for the next piece of "real" furniture. SWMBO also has come to understand that much of what i do in shop pieces is done as a learning lab for something she might get later, someday, maybe--so she's more patient with me. 

So, if it was me right now, i'd probably be doing loose tenons since i've never done one before and i'm curious. But that's just me.

earl


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## Quillman (Aug 16, 2010)

Hardware, tho the step child of the woodworker, does work.


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## knickam (Aug 31, 2015)

greenacres2 said:


> When i do a shop cabinet, i take one of two approaches:
> a. Cobble together whatever is laying around any way i can (often pocket screwed)
> or
> b. Use it to learn or improve a specific technique. If i screw it up, it's in the shop anyway, and i'm better for the next piece of "real" furniture. SWMBO also has come to understand that much of what i do in shop pieces is done as a learning lab for something she might get later, someday, maybe--so she's more patient with me.
> ...


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

knickam said:


> greenacres2 said:
> 
> 
> > So, if it was me right now, i'd probably be doing loose tenons since i've never done one before and i'm curious. But that's just me.
> ...


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

That's a great looking portable workstation, Ian, but there's so much to modify to make it functional as a router table that you might want to give serious thought to starting with a dedicated RT design. There's a ton of them out there.

http://www.routerforums.com/table-mounted-routing/17212-wanted-pictures-your-router-table.html


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## knickam (Aug 31, 2015)

Stick486 said:


> knickam said:
> 
> 
> > machine cut or by hand???
> ...


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

knickam said:


> Stick486 said:
> 
> 
> > It will be machine cut, I have access to a morticer
> ...


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## knickam (Aug 31, 2015)

DaninVan said:


> That's a great looking portable workstation, Ian, but there's so much to modify to make it functional as a router table that you might want to give serious thought to starting with a dedicated RT design. There's a ton of them out there.
> 
> http://www.routerforums.com/table-mounted-routing/17212-wanted-pictures-your-router-table.html


Yes I know, Just using it as a a guide really for the basic frame and drawers. I have had a good look through the thread you mention already.

This is a rough sketch of a possible layout, No final decision until I get the router top and measure it up.


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## knickam (Aug 31, 2015)

Stick486 said:


> knickam said:
> 
> 
> > so what do you need to be brought up to speed on???
> ...


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

I know what you mean about trying something new. I think your sketch puts the routerr to one side. I think it is generrally placed in the middle so you have ample support on both sides of the router. I also suggest you get your mounting plate early since it bears on the size and placement on the table top. Use a very thick, flat material for the top, or consider buying a commercially made top with the mounting plate already in place. Be sure to match the plate to your router. What routerr are you going to use?


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## knickam (Aug 31, 2015)

DesertRatTom said:


> I know what you mean about trying something new. I think your sketch puts the routerr to one side. I think it is generrally placed in the middle so you have ample support on both sides of the router. I also suggest you get your mounting plate early since it bears on the size and placement on the table top. Use a very thick, flat material for the top, or consider buying a commercially made top with the mounting plate already in place. Be sure to match the plate to your router. What routerr are you going to use?


I am planning on getting an Incra 27" x 43" offset router table top with an Incra fence and an Incra Mast-R-Lift II.

There are very few routers in europe that fit this lift so I am going to be going for a new Auk Tools fixed base router. It has an option of a hard wired,variable speed NVR switch.
Speed adjustments can then be made from the NVR switch box.


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## knickam (Aug 31, 2015)

Would a softwood tenon in a hardwood mortice work?

Suspect not but see what the experts say:wink:


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

It wouldn't be as strong as hardwood to hardwood but it will still work. The combination of those woods might look a little out of place.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Re the Auk Tools decision...can't find any info on it. Have you got a link?
I'm somewhat confused by the comment that there's few choices in "Europe"; you're in the UK aren't you?
https://www.bosch-do-it.com/gb/en/diy/tools/routers-199905.jsp

OK...now I see what you mean. Compared to their NA website, the Bosch UK site is somewhat 'understated', to be polite.
Talk to Angie before you throw your money down.
Router Forums - View Profile: vindaloo

Further to the choices thing, I see that Angie uses DeWalt, and then there's Bosch as I mentioned, Makita, and for you guys over there, TREND seems to be big...
http://www.trend-uk.com/en/UK/productgroup/71/Power Tools and Safety.html

If you can find one with above-table ht. adjustment, you can likely eliminate the lift.


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## vindaloo (May 30, 2009)

Finding a 1/2" fixed base router in the UK is difficult, but *axminster sell the bosch GMF 1600 CE*. A bit expensive for me but it does come with the fixed and plunge bases.

The *routerraizer* works on *some* plunge routers like the DW625 (*see set up here*), which allows for above table adjustment.

Not done much research into this as I have a Ryobi in my table which I modified to allow micro adjustment using the built in micro-adjuster.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

knickam said:


> Stick486 said:
> 
> 
> > Have never done mortice and tenon before so I would just like to try making some.
> ...


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## knickam (Aug 31, 2015)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> It wouldn't be as strong as hardwood to hardwood but it will still work. The combination of those woods might look a little out of place.


The softwood would be internal for holding drawer runners and generally would not be visible.


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## knickam (Aug 31, 2015)

DaninVan said:


> Re the Auk Tools decision...can't find any info on it. Have you got a link?
> I'm somewhat confused by the comment that there's few choices in "Europe"; you're in the UK aren't you?
> https://www.bosch-do-it.com/gb/en/diy/tools/routers-199905.jsp
> 
> ...


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

knickam said:


> DaninVan said:
> 
> 
> > Re the Auk Tools decision...can't find any info on it. Have you got a link?
> ...


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## knickam (Aug 31, 2015)

Herb Stoops said:


> knickam said:
> 
> 
> > How much in US$ is that 169.00 Lift? That is a nice looking lift, and a motor and lift for 149.00 ?
> ...


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

knickam said:


> Herb Stoops said:
> 
> 
> > Roughly $260 for the lift, Router $230
> ...


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