# CNC Purchase Decision



## rrrun (Jun 17, 2014)

I'm getting close to a purchase decision for my CNC ... and confusion is setting in. Given how many posters are talking about buying a CNC soon, I thought I better enter the discussion.

I'm a one man shop, currently making cutting boards & serving pieces in quantity for sale at craft shows. I'm beginning to do more B to B sales, and have decided it's time to add a CNC to my crowded 2-car garage.

I want a turn key solution. I have a real job in addition to my serious woodworking hobby; I don't have time for a DIY CNC build. I need a minimum 24" x 30" workspace.

I have basic computer skills, but I'm a beginner at CADCAM. On a positive note, I have a mechanical engineer and an operator of a small machine shop in the immediate family, so I have smart people I can call on. On the negative side, I don't know a local woodworker that has a CNC that I can call on for help.

I had all but decided to buy a Probotix: their Linux architecture and small business approach is *very like* the approach of the company I work for in my real job. That's appealing. However, I do question the scale of the operation and available design/training resources. I am looking at their top-of-the-line Nebula, which has a 37" x 50" workspace.

I know there are several Probotix fans in this forum, and I take that as a big positive for that choice.

The new contender for my budget is Legacy's bottom-of-the-line Explorer system, with the expanded 24" x 48" work space. It appears to me that their training program is quite advanced, which I like a lot. Their Utah home - where they host training - is more accessible than Probotix's Florida base. The system seems less well defined to me, though, and the expanded workspace (24" x 48") is still smaller than the Nebula's. I'm not sure that I can buy the bells & whistles I want for the system and keep it under budget.

Budget is $10k for the CNC + software. I'm going to spend a bit more on the shop to move cabinetry, install electrical and perhaps build a small outbuilding for lumber storage. Total cost will be under $12k.

Your thoughts & wisdom will be most appreciated.


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## difalkner (Jan 3, 2012)

Looking forward to the ride with you, Henry. On the Legacy 24x48, do you know if that's the true working area? Last year I built the first Saturn 2x4 and the actual cutting area on it is 26" x 50". That's still well under the Nebula's 37" x 50" but it is larger than the Saturn model name, so that allows me to get all the way around a 24" x 48" piece. Just curious...

David


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

Henry,

You've seen what I've done with my Nebula (got some stuff on my albums), and how intricate 4d gets with his. And I'm just a old retired trucker who has trouble checking his email.

You don't need to go anywhere for training if you get Aspire or Vcarve (get Aspire, do it right). Start playing with their free version which lets you do everything but download the files. And watch the tutorials. Go back and read MT Stringer's thread - he just got a Probotix Asteroid. All you have to do when you get it from Probotix is put the limit switches in, hook the wires up, put your thumbdrive (with your design file) in, and hit go. Decide on a spindle (I say go air cooled ) or router. You can be rocking for about $8k including machine, spindle, shipping, some bits, and Aspire. It comes with it's own computer already set up for your particular machine.

Just my opinion, Legacy makes a good machine but they are overpriced. When you call Probotix you can talk to the guy that built your machine and get great CS. With Legacy you get an employee who answers the phone who may or may not (most of the cases I've heard about) know what they're talking about. They are not noted for their CS in real life. But they do have some great software videos - which they say is their own, but is really Aspire. 

Once you know what you want to do you can redo the Probotix bed to your needs.

Just my opinion.


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

And you don't need an engineer or machine operator of any kind to do this. Just a little patience (my strongpoint- lol) and a few hairs to occasionally pull out. Once you start getting the hang of it, there isn't enough available time to play with it.

I suggest a good executive office chair, cable tv hookup, a fridge, microwave, and internet access in the immediate work area.


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## MT Stringer (Aug 15, 2012)

+ 1 What John said.

I started knowing nothing about CNC routers or the software for designing projects. The software part was the intimidating factor. So, I downloaded the trial versions of VCarve and started watching their tutorials and playing with the software. It came around pretty quickly for me. Not sure why, but I seem to be able to vision how a project should look and now I can design it.

I just got my Probotix Asteroid up and running. Heck I went to their shop and picked it up! Well, it was sort of a mini vacation for me and the missus. All I had to do was connect the cables to the control box and install the limit switches on the rails. They don't come installed from the factory for fear of being damaged during shipping. I agree fully.

I too have a cramped garage, but it is a one car garage. Lots of tools in that garage along with the usual - washer/dryer/freezer/insulation and mini -split AC :surprise::grin:

Getting back to the Asteroid, I have no experience with Linux, but it is pretty basic and easy to learn. Really easy. Kind of like a scaled down version of Windows. All you really need to figure out is how to find your files on the thumb drive and start the control software. Pretty easy.

The bottom line is the training is not really needed, it is the learning how to use VCarve software to design your projects. The videos help tremendously.

Good luck. Remember, we like pictures...lots of pictures! :smile:


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

honesttjohn said:


> I suggest a good executive office chair, cable tv hookup, a fridge, microwave, and internet access in the immediate work area.


What, no toilet? Downright uncivilized. :laugh2:


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## edison auto (Nov 13, 2015)

MT Stringer said:


> + 1 What John said.
> 
> I started knowing nothing about CNC routers or the software for designing projects. The software part was the intimidating factor. So, I downloaded the trial versions of VCarve and started watching their tutorials and playing with the software. It came around pretty quickly for me. Not sure why, but I seem to be able to vision how a project should look and now I can design it.
> 
> ...





JOAT said:


> honesttjohn said:
> 
> 
> > I suggest a good executive office chair, cable tv hookup, a fridge, microwave, and internet access in the immediate work area.
> ...


Adding to John's post I am all in at 10k with my mobile table, 32 inch monitor and robo arm. I went all in and got the 4th axis and went straight to aspire. I am getting ready to order the tool bit sensor touch pad. Mine is air cooled spindle as I did not like the thought of water around my table and wood.


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

JOAT said:


> What, no toilet? Downright uncivilized. :laugh2:


There's usually no plumbing for that ........ but one of those portable camping toilets would work, wouldn't it?


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## beltramidave (Jan 6, 2016)

+1 what HJ says. Probotix makes a decent ready to run machine. I have experience with several of their models, but not the Nebula. If you want a ready to run with good support, go Probotix.

I also know a guy who has had a couple of the Legacy machines and swears by them. He has hosted learning seminars at his shop in Colorado. Not aware of any training for the Probotix machines, but like several have already said, the machine will do what the software tells it, so the real training you need is on the software. I am also a Vectric software supporter.

I myself, just built the FLA Saturn 4x4. If you were in to a somewhat DIY machine, I would pressure you in to looking at them further.

Good luck on your decision.

Dave


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## Enios (Jun 10, 2017)

Hi Henry, You can save a much amount of money if you don't mind China CNC router. I bought same machine from China FALA CNC the price is USD7700


rrrun said:


> I'm getting close to a purchase decision for my CNC ... and confusion is setting in. Given how many posters are talking about buying a CNC soon, I thought I better enter the discussion.
> 
> I'm a one man shop, currently making cutting boards & serving pieces in quantity for sale at craft shows. I'm beginning to do more B to B sales, and have decided it's time to add a CNC to my crowded 2-car garage.
> 
> ...


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

I think the above guy sells those Chinese machines. Betcha you'd get a lot of support and parts availability.


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## Bentley (Mar 22, 2021)

rrrun said:


> I'm getting close to a purchase decision for my CNC ... and confusion is setting in. Given how many posters are talking about buying a CNC soon, I thought I better enter the discussion.
> 
> I'm a one man shop, currently making cutting boards & serving pieces in quantity for sale at craft shows. I'm beginning to do more B to B sales, and have decided it's time to add a CNC to my crowded 2-car garage.
> 
> ...


Hi. Not sure if my 2 cents worth will be any good but I'm awaiting for my ShopSabre 23 to arrive tomorrow. I was looking at all of them ( Camaster, Legacy, Axiom Precsion Elite ). I have an Axiom Precision AR6 Basic right now. Its accurate but the electronics are way underpowered for the size of the machine. Just sold a CWI HDX Professor last week to make room for the ShopSabre 23. I chose the 23 over all of them pretty well because of the sturdy design and also coming with VCarve Pro. I have VCarve Pro already but its a bonus. The Axiom is made in Taiwan. Very good craftmanship and way more accurate than the one I just sold, even though it cost way more. Mostly due to the fact it had the HSD spindle. Quality of the build of that machine was absolutely horrendous compared to the Axiom. ( chipped paint, missing or loose capscrews, no post processor with the machine, its not even listed in VCarve to choose a Post Processor) I also chose the ShopSabre because they have all parts in stock in case something were to ever break down. I would have a part in a few days even though I'm in Canada. I had my CWI down for over 3 months waiting for a stepper driver. Chinese manufacture. That's why I have 2 machines. Can't afford to be down that long. Even a couple of days I'm losing tons of money and I'm a small business. The 23 is also a true 30x40" cutting table. Another bonus. Hopefully its a good as I have been told. If you ever listen to their Podcast. Its a bit bias towards their machines but they mention a guy whom I contacted and he has the 23. He makes incredible stuff. I've seen it. So hopefully you take a bit of my advice. I just wish I had someone out there to guide me a bit.
Bentley


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

l don't have a CNC. But I taught marketing for almost 40 years and wrote the attached pdf about how I'd go about making money from CNC. A lot of what you're planning to do is spot on. Thought you might like to give this a read. Learning to work the machine is one thing, generating a steady flow of B to B clients is quite another.


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## Bentley (Mar 22, 2021)

Bentley said:


> Hi. Not sure if my 2 cents worth will be any good but I'm awaiting for my ShopSabre 23 to arrive tomorrow. I was looking at all of them ( Camaster, Legacy, Axiom Precsion Elite ). I have an Axiom Precision AR6 Basic right now. Its accurate but the electronics are way underpowered for the size of the machine. Just sold a CWI HDX Professor last week to make room for the ShopSabre 23. I chose the 23 over all of them pretty well because of the sturdy design and also coming with VCarve Pro. I have VCarve Pro already but its a bonus. The Axiom is made in Taiwan. Very good craftmanship and way more accurate than the one I just sold, even though it cost way more. Mostly due to the fact it had the HSD spindle. Quality of the build of that machine was absolutely horrendous compared to the Axiom. ( chipped paint, missing or loose capscrews, no post processor with the machine, its not even listed in VCarve to choose a Post Processor) I also chose the ShopSabre because they have all parts in stock in case something were to ever break down. I would have a part in a few days even though I'm in Canada. I had my CWI down for over 3 months waiting for a stepper driver. Chinese manufacture. That's why I have 2 machines. Can't afford to be down that long. Even a couple of days I'm losing tons of money and I'm a small business. The 23 is also a true 30x40" cutting table. Another bonus. Hopefully its a good as I have been told. If you ever listen to their Podcast. Its a bit bias towards their machines but they mention a guy whom I contacted and he has the 23. He makes incredible stuff. I've seen it. So hopefully you take a bit of my advice. I just wish I had someone out there to guide me a bit.
> Bentley


This is a follow-up to my above post. I just received my ShopSabre 23, two weeks ago. And I am totally blown away at the quality of the machine. I couldn't be more happy. Its solid, accurate, easy to use and the HSD spindle is unbelievably quiet. I am so glad I bought this machine. I for the life of me can never understand with the quality and the price and the backing why more guys aren't buying these machines. Never in a million years would I ever go back to a Chinese made machine. Especially for the price. Most of the Chinese made machines have very poor quality control. As far as service you have to call sometime between the hours of midnight and 6 am to talk to someone. Need a part. Maybe if your lucky the faster boat from China delivers it to you. I could say a few more but have to control myself.. I even had to have the machine imported, pay duties and taxes and am still extremely happy with my decision. 
Bentley


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## DeanS (Jul 27, 2021)

Bentley said:


> This is a follow-up to my above post. I just received my ShopSabre 23, two weeks ago. And I am totally blown away at the quality of the machine. I couldn't be more happy. Its solid, accurate, easy to use and the HSD spindle is unbelievably quiet. I am so glad I bought this machine. I for the life of me can never understand with the quality and the price and the backing why more guys aren't buying these machines. Never in a million years would I ever go back to a Chinese made machine. Especially for the price. Most of the Chinese made machines have very poor quality control. As far as service you have to call sometime between the hours of midnight and 6 am to talk to someone. Need a part. Maybe if your lucky the faster boat from China delivers it to you. I could say a few more but have to control myself.. I even had to have the machine imported, pay duties and taxes and am still extremely happy with my decision.
> Bentley


Bentley how much did it add to the bill to import the ShopSabre to Canada (duties, taxes and shipping). Also is there any CSA electrical requirements for the machine coming into Canada? I was just about to pull the trigger on an Axiom being the supplier is in London,ON and I live in Waterloo. But you peaked my interest in the ShopSabre. Cheers.
Dean


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## Bentley (Mar 22, 2021)

DeanS said:


> Bentley how much did it add to the bill to import the ShopSabre to Canada (duties, taxes and shipping). Also is there any CSA electrical requirements for the machine coming into Canada? I was just about to pull the trigger on an Axiom being the supplier is in London,ON and I live in Waterloo. But you peaked my interest in the ShopSabre. Cheers.
> Dean


Hi, Sorry it took so long to reply. Very busy and frustrating week. All you need to do is pay the taxes on the machine. Because its American made there is no duty. You'll have to pay for shipping but you will have to pay also for the Axiom. Its not CSA certified but if you are using it in your home there is no need. I asked my electrician buddy who does all my work and he said no you don't need it. I worked with him for over 25 years in an industrial environment. Hes an industrial electrician with oodles of tickets in the trade so I really trust him.

I have an Axion Precision Basic AR6 Basic which they don't make any more (Axiom that is). Its not a bad machine but no where near the machine the ShopSabre is. If I ever buy another machine if I move it will either be another ShopSabre 23 or their Pro series. I will just keep the 23 as a backup. Comparing the 2 machines is like comparing a hand screwdriver to a cordless impact driver. You can do the same thing but the one is way better. Also I would never buy a liquid cooled spindle. They are cheap to make and there are no industrial machines out there with them. That alone speaks volumes. If you do consider the ShopSabre. Contact Travis. He's a real good sales guy. Absolutely no pressure. Seriously. And whatever you do never buy anything from Busy Bee. Horrendous to deal with if you were to have any issues. One other thing to think about. Warranty and tech support. I am still waiting for an answer from Axiom that is over 2 months old about an issue I had. My buddy and I figured it out ourselves. 

The ShopSabre is my 4th machine. I made a HUUUUGGGGE mistake buying a CWI Professor HDX. Piece of junk for accuracy and repeatability. The Axiom is a bit better than that one, but the ShopSabre is hands down way more accurate. And repeatability is outstanding. I will never buy anything but the ShopSabre now. It may cost a bit more in the initial purchase but will shine once you see what it can do.

Let me know if you have any more questions. Have a good one.


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## old55 (Aug 11, 2013)

Welcome to the forum @DeanS


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

Hi @DeanS welcomee to the forum..


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## Bentley (Mar 22, 2021)

Hi. Thanks. I hope I can help with guys or gals that are on the fence with their purchase decisions. I never had anyone out there to help out. If I even had half the advice I could have made a better decision at the time. I know now if you want to save money and are willing to accept that what you are getting then is very much a piece of crap. Most if not all that make this kind of decision are not wanting true quality work. If I was 30 years younger I would have gotten a few of the good guys I worked with and designed a very good machine. Whenever you want to save a bit of money it always costs you in the end. Anyways thanks for the welcome and have a good one.
Bentley


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## DeanS (Jul 27, 2021)

Bentley really appreciate the info. I have been on the router machine hunt for about a year mulling over the CWI and the Axiom (and my worries are what you described). In a few paragraphs you filled in alot of the question blanks that I was concerned about. Cheers. Dean


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## Bentley (Mar 22, 2021)

Hi Dean. Whatever you do DO NOT buy the CWI Professor. I even felt bad when I sold the machine to the guy who bought it. It was horrible for repeatability like I mentioned. When I got my new machine (ShopSabre) I couldn't figure out why some old pieces I had left over from the CWI to be glued into some of the new parts were so far off. The CWI I found out after the fact always cut undersized. By average 1/16" for a piece that was 10" long. You don't notice it when you are using all the pieces cut from the same machine but once you start assembling them to something made on another you really take notice. The Axiom is a bit better in this regard but no where as good as the ShopSabre. Last week when I had to cut some new pieces out to be glued together. I cut approximately 60-2"x10"x3/8" pieces out. When I laid them out beside each other on my planer infeed table. You know they looked like a solid piece of wood. There was absolutely no variances with the dimensions at all. When I did this on either the Axiom or the CWI they were all different. Especially on the CWI. So to say I'm extremely happy with my new purchase. I'm ecstatic. I would buy another ShopSabre in a heart beat. Even my wife can't get over the differences. She is my reference for quality. If she notices something she has no problem telling me. Now she just nods her head that it's good. If you have any more questions feel free to ask. I can even let you hear the difference between my spindle on the ShopSabre, the router on the Axiom or even the Milwaukee router they spec as a base model spindle option on the ShopSabre.
Bentley


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## UglySign (Nov 17, 2015)

Hey I'll drink what Bentley is having. I took the plunge w/ SS also.
Great company and all support is top notch.


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## Bentley (Mar 22, 2021)

UglySign said:


> Hey I'll drink what Bentley is having. I took the plunge w/ SS also.
> Great company and all support is top notch.


Hey Thanks. I just love my ShopSabre. I can't believe the difference in how this thing cuts compared to my previous machines and also my Axiom that I kept. Eventually I will sell the Axiom as if you breath to hard around it, it will actually skip steps. I would buy another one right now if my boss would let me(wife). You can't go wrong with the ShopSabre.
Bentley


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## UglySign (Nov 17, 2015)

Bentley said:


> I would buy another one right now if my boss would let me(wife).


10% off 2nd+ machine .... maybe you'll see a 2nd?


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## Bentley (Mar 22, 2021)

UglySign said:


> 10% off 2nd+ machine .... maybe you'll see a 2nd?


Lol. I will but not this year. Just bought a new Laguna thickness planer. It's made in Taiwan but from what I gather it was designed in California. I've only used it a few times since I got it last Thursday, but wow what a difference from the CRAPTEX machine Busy Bee reluctantly took back. That machine was literally a piece of junk. Even the pathetic repair guys at their headquarters couldn't fix it. On the new Laguna unit I honestly can hardly see any snipe at all. Maybe at the most one thou. Even the finish is glass like compared to the CRAPTEX. Sorry to get off topic but the planer is an integral part of my small shop. Oh and over the past few days I made a whole bunch of trivets for one of our customers. Every one was the exact same. I never had that before with the other machines. There was always slight variances. 
Have a good one.
Bentley


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