# Question from the UK



## andersonec (Jan 12, 2010)

Could someone explain to me what you chaps mean by 8/4 board or 4/4 board or eight quarter board or 4 quarter board etc? seen this many times on US sites but I am at a loss as to what it means, obviously very simple but then so am I.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Andy

8/4 board is a board that is 2" thick the norm, a 4/4 board is 1" thick board, a 5/4 board is 1 1/4" thick and so on. 

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andersonec said:


> Could someone explain to me what you chaps mean by 8/4 board or 4/4 board or eight quarter board or 4 quarter board etc? seen this many times on US sites but I am at a loss as to what it means, obviously very simple but then so am I.


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## Woodnut65 (Oct 11, 2004)

Hi Andy: It's pretty simple and dates back to inches. When dealing with hard woods 
oak, poplar, etc they use the terms in quarters of an inch. 4/4, 8/4 or spelled out
it is the same quarter inch, 4/4 would be 1 inch, 8/4 would be 2 inches. If the wood is 
plaaned down it would measure approx. 3/4 inch for the 4/4 and about 1 1/2 inches for the 8/4 boards. Hope this helps. woodnut65


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Well I'll be damned, and you guys reckon the metric system is complicated! One day someone will find a way to add a virus to the metric system so that it quickly spreads to the backward countries! (now ducking for cover)


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## Titus A Duxass (Jan 6, 2010)

harrysin said:


> one day someone will find a way to add a virus to the metric system so that it quickly spreads to the backward countries! (now ducking for cover)


pmsl!


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Titus A Duxass said:


> pmsl!


It's no joke Titus, I've been trying for over three years to convince our American friends that the metric system has a great deal to offer, don't you agree?


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Harry

I think we will use it as the default system when we drive on the wrong side of the road also.  :haha:

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harrysin said:


> It's no joke Titus, I've been trying for over three years to convince our American friends that the metric system has a great deal to offer, don't you agree?


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## Maurice (Sep 24, 2004)

Thank you BJ, I was always puzzled by those numbers.
Now all I have to do is remember them!


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## andersonec (Jan 12, 2010)

harrysin said:


> Well I'll be damned, and you guys reckon the metric system is complicated! One day someone will find a way to add a virus to the metric system so that it quickly spreads to the backward countries! (now ducking for cover)


I agree, Metric is good, use millimetres only and nothing else when woodworking and it gets very easy and more accurate, hence 1059mm is one thousand and fiftynine millimetres or one metre and fiftynine millimetres and so on, in fact if you use millimetres only, there is no need to write 'mm' after the measurement so a drawing stays very uncluttered, so two metres six hundred and forty seven millimetres reads as 2647, simples, there are no decimal places, no halfs, quarters eigths etc. to complicate matters. I think the mistake people make is to try and convert everything back to inches, if you use metric, use metric and do not convert, it gets very easy very quickly.

Thanks for the information on the 4/4 etc


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Hi Andy:



andersonec said:


> I agree, Metric is good, ...


Actually, metric or imperial has nothing to do with it. In the early days of house construction a person would use the materials at hand in the sizes easily produced and managed. Eventually, it was found that a board 2" thick and 4" wide was an ideal size for house construction. Some years later, governments started examining how houses were built and why they burned quickly. It was found that rough cut lumber caught fire much quicker than planed lumber. So government mandated the use of "planed" lumber. There were several other decisions that led to the use of kiln-dried lumber. 

However, they also standardized materials at that time. It was found that a large sawmill would use a circular saw with a 1/4" wide tooth whereas a small operation would use a much thinner band saw. Government mandated that a 2x4 would measure 1.5"x3.5" to allow for drying shrinkage, sawing, and planing. Then other materials, (i.e. gyproc) were produced to augment a stud wall in some way. They took the 3.5" thickness of a wall, add a vapour barrier and finally the gyproc to produce a 4" thick insulated wall, plus exterior cladding. 

When Canada switched over to metric it was found that converting building materials were so ingrained into imperial measure that it was found to be too costly to covert the industry to metric. 

Any attempts to convert the industry since then have been met with a confusion of machinery and standards all based on imperial measure. Canada examined carefully changing it's national building codes to metric but shortly into the project it was found that there were so many dependencies that it was impossible to engineer a migration path at that time. Perhaps sometime in the future. Perhaps Harry or some of the other metric proponents could save the world's governments billions of dollars and provide that "perfect" migration path.

To give you an idea of how pervasive imperial measure is, I bought 200 concrete retaining wall blocks. They were expressed in "approximated metric units" which turned out to be converted and rounded imperial measurements. It seems that the molds and machinery used to produce the blocks were made many years ago in imperial and are still in use. That's another source of problems for metrification. Who's going to pay to upgrade machinery that is 50 years old and still working economically and efficiently.


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## Gene Howe (Jul 10, 2007)

Just a historical note: The reason for the 1/4" increments and how it is referred to, is because the first mechanical, powered saws used in mills had "dogs" to hold the log at a certain depth relative to the blade. These dogs were moved by a lever that had pre sets, or cogs, spaced 1/4" apart. 4 clicks (after the truing cut)=4/4 etc.


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

They weren't always 1.5 x 3.5, Ron. They were 1.75 x 3.75 when I was younger.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

BigJimAK said:


> They weren't always 1.5 x 3.5, Ron. They were 1.75 x 3.75 when I was younger.


Hi Jim:

Yup, and a wide variety of measurements in-between. Until standardization, measurements were all over the place. The thinking was that you could only use one supplier to build a house. No two suppliers products were of the same dimension. I still have some slightly less than 1.75 x 3.675 (1 3/4 x 3 5/8). That's what all my shop modules are made of.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

How Australia and now I believe the UK managed to change from Imperial to metric nice and slowly to come into line with most of the rest of the world indicates to me that it IS possible. Andy has surely made out a good case for metric.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

bobj3 said:


> Hi Harry
> 
> I think we will use it as the default system when we drive on the wrong side of the road also.  :haha:
> 
> =========


I rest my case Bob, you ARE driving on the wrong side of the road!


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Harry

hahahahahaha most of the people in the states use the right hand for the default one, and most things follow that suite.... walk on the right side ,drive on the right side,wipe with the right, march on the right side of the drill field, etc. hahahahaha...

I rest my case 
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harrysin said:


> I rest my case Bob, you ARE driving on the wrong side of the road!


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## gemnw (Aug 1, 2010)

Harry - It is an improvement, for someone who use to have Wittworth (?)


Ted, Oregon


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## istracpsboss (Sep 14, 2008)

But Whitworth threads are stronger. I've got works drawings for BR52 Kriegsloks (as you do !) and on the earlier ones, vulnerable threads are Whitworth, although everything else is metric. I assume the factory that made the Whitworth bolts got bombed, as later drawings show all metric.

Cheers

Peter


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## istracpsboss (Sep 14, 2008)

BTW, the Brits drive on the left, as they rode horses on the left, This leaves their right hand able to withdraw a left hung sword and defend themselves against someone approaching on their right. Anything else involves the necessity of fighting across your body.
As is well known, when we deported all our left handed rejects across the pond, the only way they could fight was by going on the wrong side of the road.

GDAR !

Cheers

Peter

PS

Just had lunch with a preacher from Alabama. Now I'm beginning to understand things !


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## andersonec (Jan 12, 2010)

Hi Ron,
I am extolling the virtues of metric when used in my garage/workshop, it's a virtual minefield outside that environment.
Here in the UK we are joined at the hip with all the other European countries who all use, you guessed it, metric. Now to be able to trade etc. with these countries the UK has had to change, or at least adapt, go into any builders merchants and you will hear stuff being ordered both in imperial ( the older age group) and in metric (the younger age group) imperial is no longer taught in schools. In the shops everything is still quoted in feet or inches or Lbs and ounces but everything also has to be labelled in metric, most everything is labelled with both.
Question for you, What do you replace the fifty year old machine with when it dies a death, which it certainly will one day, another imperial machine which could be obsolete very quickly or do you do you hop on board with the rest of the world and go metric, could be very hard to trade with other countries if nothing is done. I realise it is a massive problem but Sweden used to drive on the left and one day in 1967 they woke up and all the signs had been changed. Changing a country to metric cannot happen overnight and will have to take place very gradually, the future generations will no doubt benefit though.
Are Canada still metric?


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

hi Andy:



andersonec said:


> I am extolling the virtues of metric when used in my garage/workshop, it's a virtual minefield outside that environment.





> Here in the UK we are joined at the hip with all the other European countries who all use, you guessed it, metric. Now to be able to trade etc. with these countries the UK has had to change, or at least adapt, go into any builders merchants and you will hear stuff being ordered both in imperial ( the older age group) and in metric (the younger age group) imperial is no longer taught in schools. In the shops everything is still quoted in feet or inches or Lbs and ounces but everything also has to be labelled in metric, most everything is labelled with both.


I've said this before. Canada is an expert on systems of measurement. We have measurements based on the old French King, the new French King, English, British Imperial and Metric as well as US fluid measures. (I've run into much more but these are examples)



> Question for you, What do you replace the fifty year old machine with when it dies a death, which it certainly will one day, another imperial machine which could be obsolete very quickly or do you do you hop on board with the rest of the world and go metric, could be very hard to trade with other countries if nothing is done. I realise it is a massive problem but Sweden used to drive on the left and one day in 1967 they woke up and all the signs had been changed. Changing a country to metric cannot happen overnight and will have to take place very gradually, the future generations will no doubt benefit though.


If the market place is ready for conversion the machine is either rebuilt metric, rebuilt imperial, replaced with a 40 year old (rebuilt?) machine in either metric or imperial or, worst case, replaced with a new machine, usually, but not always, metric.



> Are Canada still metric?


Well, sort of, yes. Canada began the conversion process in (and before) 1973. (from what I can remember, the government began the planning process much earlier.) The problem is that not all of our customers have converted to metric either so until they do, our conversion won't be complete. (i.e. we can still sell grain in bushels)

I can buy food in metric but sawn wood construction materials in Imperial but concrete materials in Imperial or metric. Manufactured materials are available either metric or Imperial. Nails are English measure (i.e. 4d) bolts are metric or imperial. Interestingly, wood screws are Imperial but sheet metal screws are either. Car parts used to be a mix of the two but more and more are converting to metric.

Confused yet? The deed to my old house in Quebec was a nightmare. The original land grand was made to a Seigneury by the old French King. The land was sold to a British war veteran in 1815 in new French King measurements and converted to English land measure. By the time I got it the measurements were being converted to metric. BTW, in 1825, 825 acres of land changed hands for 1 shilling.


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## Gene Howe (Jul 10, 2007)

The Ace hardware near me had a bin of bolts that had metric threads, yet the bolt head was imperial. Where was it made, you ask? China


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## Swallow (Jan 13, 2010)

Well my house being built of ten sorta inches round pine logs is no biggie to figure out, they are neither imperial or metric just sorta in between. I guess it was just what the mill with the huge pencil sharpener thingy thought would look cool. My barn and shed however are both studded and raftered with full 2"x4" white oak but then again they were both built around the turn of the last century. Just try hammering a nail into that stuff without pre drilling. Even if I wanted to renovate those old buildings metric would be the very least of my problems.

And oh yeah the foundations are also neither imperial or metric but based on the fieldstone measurement system. Just a shade over four foot high, just a shade under three foot at the base and real sorta close to two foot in places at the top, solid Granite and mortar. In well over a hundred years they have never moved, I wish buildings were still built that way, Solid from the ground up.

In Canada metric will never be complete until all of the Mile roads are either moved closer together or further apart and I don't think that the Canadian government is that STUPID. Mind you based on their passed history perhaps I shouldn't be so sure.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

bobj3 said:


> Hi Harry
> 
> hahahahahaha most of the people in the states use the right hand for the default one, and most things follow that suite.... walk on the right side ,drive on the right side,wipe with the right, march on the right side of the drill field, etc. hahahahaha...
> 
> ...


I think that you're suggesting I'm the only one in the platoon who is out of step when I was thinking that I was the only one INSTEP!


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Swallow said:


> ... I don't think that the Canadian government is that STUPID. Mind you based on their passed history perhaps I shouldn't be so sure.


A buddy of mine worked in the Prime Minister's office during a Conservative administration and he was flabbergasted that we spent money to turn lettuce into cabbage and now we were paying to turn the cabbage back into lettuce. Make no assumptions as to stupidity when it comes to governments. Some silly servants can qualify their existence in the most glorious of terms.


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

And after all of this, you guys wonder why we Yanks have stuck with Imperial??? We've got enough problems with mixed metric and Imperial bolks and nuts. At least 98% of what we run into is a single system!!


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## Colyn (Feb 19, 2008)

*reply*



andersonec said:


> Could someone explain to me what you chaps mean by 8/4 board or 4/4 board or eight quarter board or 4 quarter board etc? seen this many times on US sites but I am at a loss as to what it means, obviously very simple but then so am I.


4/4 = 1 inch thickness
5/4 = 1 1/4 inch thickness
6/4 - 1 1/2 inch thickness
8/4 = 2 inch thickness ( eight quarter)
Etcetra

hope this helps


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

harrysin said:


> i rest my case bob, you are driving on the wrong side of the road!



+1



lol


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

HI James and Harry

PLEASE don't come to the STATES ,,,LOL LOL hahahahahaha.
Unless you have had a min. 60 days behind the wheel a real car and the wheel in on the left side of the car..LOL hahahah..
==



jw2170 said:


> +1
> 
> 
> 
> lol


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