# Rail and Stile and Undersized Plywood - Advice??



## woodknots (Mar 7, 2012)

Hello Folks

I'm about to make some doors for a kitchen island, using maple for the rails/stiles and maple ply for the flat panels. Doors will be stained.

Problem I've got is that my rail and stile set (ogee) cuts a 1/4" groove/tenon (not adjustable) and as we know, most plywood is undersized. I can use space balls, but this won't keep the panel from moving in and out due to the undersized thickness of the plywood.

If you've encountered this problem, and overcome it :surprise::grin: I could use some advice. Any suggestions are appreciated.

**Moderators - if this post is in the wrong place, please move it. I wasn't sure where to put it**

Vince


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

a layer of veneer on the back side...
hand sand to thickness if required....
or use screen spline instead of space balls..
or use backer rod...


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## hawkeye10 (Jul 28, 2015)

Stick486 said:


> a layer of veneer on the back side...
> sand to thickness if required....


Good idea Stick.

When stick speaks everyone listons. :wink:


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Finish all parts before assembly so all visible areas are finished. Stick's veneer suggestion is good. I'd still use spaceballs.


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## RainMan 2.0 (May 6, 2014)

DesertRatTom said:


> Finish all parts before assembly so all visible areas are finished. Stick's veneer suggestion is good. I'd still use spaceballs.


Now I have to google space balls . I watched the movie , but I suspect this is different :grin:


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## Terry Q (Mar 2, 2017)

Glue the plywood panel in place since you don’t have to worry about wood movement. Put a toothpick or brad in the gap on the back to push the plywood forward until the glue dries. 


In woodworking there is always more then one way to accomplish something.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Terry Q said:


> Glue the plywood panel in place since you don’t have to worry about wood movement. Put a toothpick or brad in the gap on the back to push the plywood forward until the glue dries.
> 
> 
> In woodworking there is always more then one way to accomplish something.


the rails and stiles need to move...


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

By the time you get two or three coats of any finish on, sprayed or brushed, those puppies aren't going to move. But shimming from the back to avoid having a visible hairline gap on the front face makes a lot of sense.
i don't even know how one would go about NOT having the finish bond the components..it's going to get pulled into any abutting surfaces that aren't previously sealed. 
That's always a problem with things like doors and doublehung windows.


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## Terry Q (Mar 2, 2017)

Stick486 said:


> the rails and stiles need to move...



Now I hate to disagree with stick, but

Space balls are to allow a solid wood raised panel to expand and contract, not the style and rails. Any movement of the relatively narrow 2 1/4 inch style and rails will be minimal, and there is nothing constraining the styles and rails from expanding outward. The rails constrain the styles from expanding inward by being glued between them anyway.


In woodworking there is always more then one way to accomplish something.


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## woodknots (Mar 7, 2012)

@Stick486 - screen spline and backer rod are both too thick - the gap between 1/4" groove and 5 or 5.5 mm panel isn't wide enough to accommodate either. Good idea with the veneer.
@DesertRatTom - the finish will be stain and varnish. I plan to finish the panels first for full coverage (in the event of movement) but finishing the rails/stiles before glue-up is a bad idea.
@Terry Q - I like the idea of a toothpick or brad to shim the back


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

...or...instead of a groove, make it a rebate, then use beading or equivalent to hold the panel in...sort of like making a glass door...

I like the veneer ideer...


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

vchiarelli said:


> @DesertRatTom - the finish will be stain and varnish. I plan to finish the panels first for full coverage (in the event of movement) but finishing the rails/stiles before glue-up is a bad idea.


I stand corrected. I do pre stain fancy, two toned picture frames (with the glue area masked carefully, then apply the final coats after glue up and putting in splines to reinforce the miter joints.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

vchiarelli said:


> @DesertRatTom - the finish will be stain and varnish. I plan to finish the panels first for full coverage (in the event of movement) but finishing the rails/stiles before glue-up is a bad idea.


I stand corrected. I do pre stain fancy, two toned picture frames (with the glue area masked carefully, then apply the final coats after glue up and putting in splines to reinforce the miter joints. For plain frames, I apply finish after glue up and sanding the whole thing. Mitered corners sometimes need a little sandpaper adjustment to look right.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Terry Q said:


> Now I hate to disagree with stick, but
> 
> Space balls are to allow a solid wood raised panel to expand and contract, not the style and rails. Any movement of the relatively narrow 2 1/4 inch style and rails will be minimal, and there is nothing constraining the styles and rails from expanding outward. The rails constrain the styles from expanding inward by being glued between them anyway.
> 
> ...


correct...


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

vchiarelli said:


> @Stick486 - screen spline and backer rod are both too thick - the gap between 1/4" groove and 5 or 5.5 mm panel isn't wide enough to accommodate either.
> Good idea with the veneer.


short pieces of spline used exactly like space balls...
I did forget to mention that the veneer is a 100% installation but done as numerous short pieces...
they don't fall out nor loosen...


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## Danman1957 (Mar 14, 2009)

Stick, 
Please educate me, what is backer rod ?

TIA 
Dan


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## Garyk (Dec 29, 2011)

My thought would be to edge the maple plywood with hardwood then machine the edges to fit the groves you have available.

It's been a while since I did any cabinets but best I remember the plywood coming from the big box stores was definitely undersized but the good stuff ($$$$) I was getting from my wood supplier was still 3/4 & 1/2 inch. In any event I have a set (3) of bits specifically made for the undersized stuff, made by Whiteside and they are perfectly sized for door panel grooves. I don't remember the price but I'm too cheap to pay too much for things.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Danman1957 said:


> Stick,
> Please educate me, what is backer rod ?
> 
> TIA
> Dan


Foam rope used to seal/close deep gaps and open joints before caulk is applied,.
Foam rope used behind/under caulking so that caulk forms two point adhesion...
two point (both sides of the joint) the allows the caulk to stretch/compress as designed/advertised and still maintain adhesion...
three point (both sides and bottom of the joint) makes for a poor/weak caulk joint that will break adhesion on it's own... wastes caulk too...
the smallest dia rod I'm aware of is ¼''... 100' roll is about 3 bucks...
great stuff for sealing window and door installations... way cheaper, cleaner and easier than spray in foams...
another item that works better than space balls is slices of sill barrier/seal...


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## jj777746 (Jan 17, 2015)

Stick486 said:


> Foam rope used to seal/close deep gaps and open joints before caulk is applied,.
> Foam rope used behind/under caulking so that caulk forms two point adhesion...
> two point (both sides of the joint) the allows the caulk to stretch/compress as designed/advertised and still maintain adhesion...
> three point (both sides and bottom of the joint) makes for a poor/weak caulk joint that will break adhesion on it's own... wastes caulk too...
> ...


Sill/barrier seal is real handy to have on hand at all times too


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## JIMMIEM (Apr 4, 2010)

Another option to space balls, screen spline, and backer rod is some dried silicone caulk. Run a 1/4" bead on a piece of wax paper. After it has dried cut to size and use as you would a space ball.


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## woodknots (Mar 7, 2012)

Folks - thanks for all the suggestions. I might have unintentionally misled you. After reading my initial post I realize I didn't tell you these were fake panels on three sides of the island and drawer fronts on the other side.

So I wasn't worried so much about the lateral movement of the panel, but more so about the in and out movement, due to the thickness of the plywood being less than 1/4".

What I've found, after putting a couple of the "doors" together today, is that there is just enough space between the undersized panel and the 1/4" groove to insert a double thickness of some small arborite strips and that eliminated the in/out movement and the rattle of the panel. Since the backs will never be seen, that solution will do just fine.

Thanks


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## Danman1957 (Mar 14, 2009)

Thanks Stick, I'm going to bed smarter tonight because of you. I like the concept and will see if the big box stores sell that here near Montreal.


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## CharleyL (Feb 28, 2009)

I've not found rail and stile router bits that adjust for thinner panels, so I frequently use thicker plywood and then rabbet the back so that the remaining edges are the right thickness. Nobody usually looks at the back side of the door to see the rabbet. 

For "too thin" plywood I have made filler strips of the same wood, and placed these in the panel slots to make the resulting groove the smaller size needed behind the panel and glued them to the rail or stile, but not to the panel.

For making jewelry boxes, I use "backer rod" of 1/2" or larger diameter cut to length, then covered with velvet so it makes great ring holders. The rings get pushed into the crack between two or more of these backer rods and are easy to remove, yet held securely in place. I frequently use 3/4" backer rod for this but have used larger and smaller diameters, depending on the room within the box and the size of rings that will be stored between them. Backer Rod can be found in many sizes, usually near the Weather Stripping in the Bog Box stores, and other locations that sell masonry supplies. The packaging is just plastic bags much like Weather stripping is sold in and it is open cell medium gray colored round foam of the labeled diameter, usually in 8' lengths.In it's packaging, it's easy to mistake it for Weatherstripping and not see it.

Charley


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## papasombre (Sep 22, 2011)

Garyk said:


> My thought would be to edge the maple plywood with hardwood then machine the edges to fit the groves you have available.


I use to use this trick


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## papasombre (Sep 22, 2011)

JIMMIEM said:


> Another option to space balls, screen spline, and backer rod is some dried silicone caulk. Run a 1/4" bead on a piece of wax paper. After it has dried cut to size and use as you would a space ball.


Since we do not have space balls here, I use this too.


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## Garyk (Dec 29, 2011)

JIMMIEM said:


> Another option to space balls, screen spline, and backer rod is some dried silicone caulk. Run a 1/4" bead on a piece of wax paper. After it has dried cut to size and use as you would a space ball.[/QUOTE
> 
> Good idea ! Sometimes the simple ideas are the best solutions. I, being brain dead (as my wife tells me) tend to over think things.


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## Mycrossover (Dec 29, 2017)

DesertRatTom said:


> Finish all parts before assembly so all visible areas are finished. Stick's veneer suggestion is good. I'd still use spaceballs.


Long strips of silicon squeezed out of tube onto wax paper and allowed to set. Cut into pieces. Fast and dirty space balls

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## Rebelwork Woodworking (Sep 11, 2004)

Years ago when this problem first started most guys in the shop just used space balls as usual and shop pins aimed at filling the gap in the back. This pressed the panel forward enough. 

You can also use glazing points


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## woodknots (Mar 7, 2012)

I solved my problem back in December, as I posted, by inserting a double thickness of some small arborite pieces and that removed the rattle.

Thanks for the continued suggestions as they may help others that are looking for a solution to the issue.


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## tomp913 (Mar 7, 2014)

For your application - fixed panels applied to the box of an island - why not make the "door" joints using stub tenons. That way the groove in the edges of the rails and stiles can be made an exact fit to the plywood panel thickness, and the tenon the same thickness. I've used that method for operating doors, and not had any problems - but I do glue the plywood panel into the grooves.

Sorry, just dawned on me that this wouldn't work if you were trying to match the profile on your existing cabinets. In that case, for your application, you could go ahead and make up the frame parts, glue them together (less the panel) and then cut away the back side of the profile and glue in the plywood panel - kind of like modifying a door to put glass in it - but shimming the back out is way quicker. Guess I haven't woken up yet.


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## Mycrossover (Dec 29, 2017)

Garyk said:


> My thought would be to edge the maple plywood with hardwood then machine the edges to fit the groves you have available.
> 
> It's been a while since I did any cabinets but best I remember the plywood coming from the big box stores was definitely undersized but the good stuff ($$$$) I was getting from my wood supplier was still 3/4 & 1/2 inch. In any event I have a set (3) of bits specifically made for the undersized stuff, made by Whiteside and they are perfectly sized for door panel grooves. I don't remember the price but I'm too cheap to pay too much for things.


Apparantly a lot of it is undersized as I have seen sets of "plywood " router bits for sale. They are undersized 1/4, 3/8, 1/2, etc. for cutting dadoes. The imported Baltic birch is actually metric so 12 and 18 mm are under sized approximations of 1/2 and 3/4.

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