# Can a router = Oppertunity ?



## Mahaney (Oct 15, 2010)

Hey guys, I love the forums Ive been reading for a while now while im at work enjoying alot of the tips and the the posts everyone has been making here.

Ive really been wanting to master the skill of using a router, because Ive realized just how many things that this tool is capable of making. However, I would really like to specialize in one niche. Reason being I would like to eventually have a business with wood working. Ive come from a large family of carpenters, so wood working is in my blood and I gotta say If I can make a living doing it, then thats my number one choice.

Im only 19 years of age, purchasing a new freud router table set and I think the first set of bits I will be buying is the Wide crown moulding sets. Do you think it is viable to make money off of crown moulding? I would assume the wood would have to come from a mill and ripped from there to cut the cost down of manufacturing the Crown moulding. 

I would ofcourse be looking to install the moulding as well as selling. 

Do you think there is a more profitable niche out there? Im young with not a whole lot of over head to work with, so the least amount of money to create the finished product. 

I dont want to come off as a money hungry teenager looking to rip people off by any means, Im just really wanting to pursue a self employed career in this industry


----------



## AxlMyk (Jun 13, 2006)

Nothing wrong with your dream.

To make molding profitably, the better choice of tools would be a shaper. They are meant to do volumes of stock. But for smaller jobs, a router will do it.

You will most likely find that having more standard router bits will be a plus, instead of just crown molding bits.


----------



## Mahaney (Oct 15, 2010)

AxlMyk said:


> Nothing wrong with your dream.
> 
> To make molding profitably, the better choice of tools would be a shaper. They are meant to do volumes of stock. But for smaller jobs, a router will do it.
> 
> You will most likely find that having more standard router bits will be a plus, instead of just crown molding bits.


Right, Ill do some research on that.. now would there be a more viable niche? cabinet doors maybe.. Im open to all suggestions. Eventually im sure I'll find something I can run away with


----------



## DGK (Oct 8, 2010)

Maybe instead of finding a niche, you can develop a wide range of skills and build anything and everything you can imagine... or anything that someone is actually in the market for  Life gets pretty darned boring feeding material through a shaper and doing monotonous assembly work.


----------



## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

N/A, while you can earn money with crown molding you are selling to a limited market. I suggest you give some thought to the idea of building boxes, crates and tool totes. This can range from fine finished jewelry boxes to rough unfinished crates for storing CD's, DVD's... etc. People are always trying to organize, sort and store their belongings. Give it some thought.


----------



## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Mahaney said:


> ...purchasing a new freud router table set ...


Nope, niet, nada, non, no way! Make your own. That's how you learn. You'll do better making all the tools you can, yourself than buying. Buying is a convenience but you don't always learn. You need to learn, so learn.

The first thing you have to learn is that there are five types of tables for different purposes. To create crown molding, you need a torsion table to handle the length with a fenced table stuck in the middle for the accuracy of cut. Freud ain't gonna make that for you. If you're really bent on that marketplace, find a molding maker nearby. I live in Central Quebec and I have 4 molding manufacturers within an hour's drive of my home. They do the gammut: architectural molding, picture frames and the list goes on. Shaper and router, they do it all. There's your competition. How are you going to do better, faster, cheaper and smarter then what they are already doing?

Go to school and learn how to be a craftsman. A good school will shorten your learning curve by about 20 years. Expect to spend 4 years in school and 5 years as an apprentice. Then you can get imaginative, creative, know how to do it and have access to the marketplace. There are no shortcuts to being good at your craft.

Somewhere someone wrote that you need to spend 10,000 hours serving an apprenticeship. The Beatles did it as have most famous people. Attempt to take shortcuts and you're robbing yourself of the experience and knowledge that you'll need to be recognized in your craft.

Sorry for the rant.


----------



## Ralph Barker (Dec 15, 2008)

*woodworking careers*

As with other types of business endeavors, my feeling is that the potential for success depends on where you are and what that market is interested in buying. It also helps to remember that we operate in a "world market" - that is to say, there are likely workers in other geographic areas who can handle production-type work far more cheaply. 

So, you might study the demographics in your current area, figure out what will sell within that market, and give it a try. But, in doing so, don't ignore the value of working for someone else for a while.

The opposite approach is to determine what you want to do, and then move to an area where that effort will be marketable.


----------



## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Mahaney

Just my 2 cents 

Just do it so many say I wish I did that, you will fall down many times b/4 you find your thing, like they say it all starts with one foot out and than the other, you can't get from A to B by just saying I wish.. Ask Bill Gates how he made his money.

==========



Mahaney said:


> Hey guys, I love the forums Ive been reading for a while now while im at work enjoying alot of the tips and the the posts everyone has been making here.
> 
> Ive really been wanting to master the skill of using a router, because Ive realized just how many things that this tool is capable of making. However, I would really like to specialize in one niche. Reason being I would like to eventually have a business with wood working. Ive come from a large family of carpenters, so wood working is in my blood and I gotta say If I can make a living doing it, then thats my number one choice.
> 
> ...


----------



## Mahaney (Oct 15, 2010)

Thanks for all the replies. First response I have to give is to Allthumbs, I completely agree with your statement. I will be making my own router tables my Old man actually gave me the same lecture last night out in the shop, and it makes alot of sense to me. Not to mention saving 200 bucks off the get go  Now I understand that going to school would make sense for a lot of people, however I suppose im lucky to have teachers in my own back yard. My father and 3 of my uncles are all very skilled carpenters, now getting older they have retired and would only like to take on small jobs. When I purchase my tools I know I'll have a teacher (my old man) over my shoulder while im adventuring on all of my projects. I definately do not expect to make a million dollars the first year of using the equipment. 

Speaking of equipement, I was first thinking of making products from raw lumber to cut cost, but then I was looking into planers and all kinds of equipment which right now is most certainly out of my budget. What wood does everyone here mostly start thier products with? finished and ready to go, or rough / raw lumber?

When talking to my father he suggested to start working and learning how to build kitchens, as creating crown moulding and trim is hard to compete with manufacturers and today's MDF products. Kitchens seem like a pretty good way to start. Building cabinets and cupboard doors. ect, Ive had alot of critism from some neighbours and friends saying its way to hard to start a business, and im much to young, but hey.. If I dont try, I'll never succeed right? Even if theres compitition out there, I feel like the idea behind wood working is that the product should sell it self. 

Ive been researching companies that make cabinet doors and sell them online, 100-300 bucks a pop. Anyways I hope to purchase my first router on thursday and start playing with some small projects. I'll definately be using this site as a reference as already Im seeing alot of good and realistic feed back.


----------



## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi 

I would suggest you chat with
del schisler, he makes many items for sale and he is real nice guy and he will be right up front with about it...check out his post and his uploads and you will see what I mean. 

Router Forums - View Profile: del schisler

Just one of many post by del
http://www.routerforums.com/32992-post1.html

Just a note
"cabinet doors and sell them online, 100-300 bucks a pop.: = you can buy them all the time on ebay for 2 to 5.oo bucks, sometimes by the truck load by the lb. for peanuts and sometimes with the cabinets..so to say select the item you want to sale with care, you don't want a pile of firewood sitting around...

http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=cabinet+doors+&_cqr=true&_nkwusc=cabninet+doors&_rdc=1
=======



Mahaney said:


> Thanks for all the replies. First response I have to give is to Allthumbs, I completely agree with your statement. I will be making my own router tables my Old man actually gave me the same lecture last night out in the shop, and it makes alot of sense to me. Not to mention saving 200 bucks off the get go  Now I understand that going to school would make sense for a lot of people, however I suppose im lucky to have teachers in my own back yard. My father and 3 of my uncles are all very skilled carpenters, now getting older they have retired and would only like to take on small jobs. When I purchase my tools I know I'll have a teacher (my old man) over my shoulder while im adventuring on all of my projects. I definately do not expect to make a million dollars the first year of using the equipment.
> 
> Speaking of equipement, I was first thinking of making products from raw lumber to cut cost, but then I was looking into planers and all kinds of equipment which right now is most certainly out of my budget. What wood does everyone here mostly start thier products with? finished and ready to go, or rough / raw lumber?
> 
> ...


----------



## Mahaney (Oct 15, 2010)

bobj3 said:


> Hi
> 
> I would suggest you chat with
> del schisler, he makes many items for sale and he is real nice guy and he will be right up front with about it...check out his post and his uploads and you will see what I mean.
> ...



Thanks, thats some pretty good advice. never thought to bring ebay into the equation.


----------



## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

You can purchase small pieces of lumber that is sized from the big box stores. This will get you going for the least cash outlay. The simple truth is your first projects will most likely have some mistakes. There is no substitute for practice with your tools. This is another reason why I suggested you start with some boxes. You can build small boxes for just a few dollars of material. Fitting joints is the same on large projects or small, so gain your experience on a low cost item.


----------



## g19fanatic (Apr 3, 2010)

Mike said:


> You can purchase small pieces of lumber that is sized from the big box stores. This will get you going for the least cash outlay. The simple truth is your first projects will most likely have some mistakes. There is no substitute for practice with your tools. This is another reason why I suggested you start with some boxes. You can build small boxes for just a few dollars of material. Fitting joints is the same on large projects or small, so gain your experience on a low cost item.


As a very inexperienced woodworker myself, the above statement is/was sooo helpful. Gaining the experience cutting and making small boxes (I started with box joints) from the cheap materials (over and over...) really helped me become familiar with my tools.

No point in getting into stuff full speed w/o knowing if you'll like the work that goes with it


----------



## Ralph Barker (Dec 15, 2008)

*self-assignments*

Your next assignment, Paul, is a 36" high blanket chest, with hand-cut dovetails spaced an inch apart.


----------



## g19fanatic (Apr 3, 2010)

Ralph Barker said:


> Your next assignment, Paul, is a 36" high blanket chest, with hand-cut dovetails spaced an inch apart.


I don't even have a jig to do dovetails w/ a router... let alone try them by hand...
I'll stick w/ my (flakey at best) table-saw box joint jig 

It's actually funny that you suggest my next 'assignment' to be a 36" blanket chest... my wife recently requested a very similar piece about 2 weeks ago... added that to the list of things she wants... Right after the bathroom vanity (currently working on...), laundry room cupboards (plans drawn up in sketchup, mostly), drying rack (back of the napkin drawings), and kitchen center island (no idea yet...)

Lots of experience being gained here... lol


----------



## DGK (Oct 8, 2010)

g19fanatic said:


> Lots of experience being gained here... lol


... some of the best experience you can get is just going to places that sell antique furniture and and study how things were constructed... not some swanky joint where they really don't care for inquisitive people with tape measures in hand fondling their goods, but swap meets and flea markets and such. I did a lot of that as I was making my transition from being just another carpenter to becoming a pretty decent cabinet maker and it sure helped speed up the learning process for me.


----------



## RJM (Apr 11, 2010)

Lot's of good coments here. I agree that you should just do it and get practice building lots of stuff (router table, jigs, fixtures, push blocks, boxes, etc). I also think that learning to do lots of different things will come in handy in two ways; first, you'll learn a lot and second, you'll find out what you like the most. Learning different techiniques and mastering different skills could also lead to new, or different, applications.

Also, don't overlook miter joints. I think they are the hardest joint to make correctly.

One more thing, entry doors can be a profitable niche, especially if you have the ability to develop unique styles.


----------



## Mahaney (Oct 15, 2010)

Awesome, I apreciate all the feed back. Im definately willing to learn the trade before trying to make money off of it, that is absolutely expected. I do have some experience with finish work, installed tons of crown moulding, casing and all sorts of trim when i was installing windows/doors, so the basically measuring/fitting should be easy for me, its just getting used to the router I suppose. I plan on trying to make a small cabinet on friday, (sqaure with one door) to mount my router table on top of. I'll use the cabinet to store all of my bits. 

ill be grabbing the stile / rail and raised panel set from freud when I pick up the new router on friday. Ive done tons and tons of online research, I know hours of reading wont amount to a second of hands on, but I think I have a good idea of what im getting myself into 

Does anyone know of decent sites with free plans? I hate to be annoying, and I have no issue just learning on my own but the entry door idea also spikes my interest. Ive been thinking of that, only thing is can you install the glass with the same insulation/thermal pane that the big door companies can. I know a huge selling point is all in how the glass is installed / cut


----------



## jschaben (Jun 21, 2009)

Mahaney said:


> Awesome, I apreciate all the feed back. Im definately willing to learn the trade before trying to make money off of it, that is absolutely expected. I do have some experience with finish work, installed tons of crown moulding, casing and all sorts of trim when i was installing windows/doors, so the basically measuring/fitting should be easy for me, its just getting used to the router I suppose. I plan on trying to make a small cabinet on friday, (sqaure with one door) to mount my router table on top of. I'll use the cabinet to store all of my bits.
> 
> ill be grabbing the stile / rail and raised panel set from freud when I pick up the new router on friday. Ive done tons and tons of online research, I know hours of reading wont amount to a second of hands on, but I think I have a good idea of what im getting myself into
> 
> Does anyone know of decent sites with free plans? I hate to be annoying, and I have no issue just learning on my own but the entry door idea also spikes my interest. Ive been thinking of that, only thing is can you install the glass with the same insulation/thermal pane that the big door companies can. I know a huge selling point is all in how the glass is installed / cut


Here's a site with a bunch of plans. I linked to the dresser page. Dresser drawer projects are good practice for building boxes of which the majority of projects really are anyway.:dirol:

http://www.woodworkersworkshop.com/resources/index.php?cat=677


----------



## MikeMa (Jul 27, 2006)

First off, good for you wanting to go out there and go into business. We need more people like you willing to take that risk!

Finding that right 'niche' can be very difficult to do, but once you find it, it can bring you a lot of enjoyment, and also be profitable.

A couple things for you to do to help find that niche. First, talk with those that have experience in the area you are look to dive into. Unless you have invented a new technology or process, there will always be others who have already gone down the path you are looking towards. Take their advice, and use it develop your own plan. Next, do a SWOT analysis. (Strengths, Weaknesses, Opportunities, and Threats) While that may sound a bit academic, every successful business does this in some form, and does it continually. This will help you avoid getting into a market that is already over-saturated. Finally take a marketing class at your local community college. You will learn more about the SWOT, but also how to get your name out there. You can't get a paying customer if they don't know about you!

One last thing, be willing to change and evolve your business. That way you can always stay ahead of the curve, from the rest of those who may be competing with you. 

Good luck to you!


----------



## Mahaney (Oct 15, 2010)

NiceG316 said:


> First off, good for you wanting to go out there and go into business. We need more people like you willing to take that risk!
> 
> Finding that right 'niche' can be very difficult to do, but once you find it, it can bring you a lot of enjoyment, and also be profitable.
> 
> ...



Thats some very sound advice. First thing id like to say to everyone is thanks, for not jumping all over the idea of me going into business, As Ive had very mixed responses from friends and family. Some think its a great idea, others just pound the idea of never being able to compete with the big boys. I really don't care if it took 60+ hours a week in the shop to keep a business afloat, because I love doing it and if being my own boss and not needing to rely on working in a call centre (where my main income comes from now) then I would glady take on the challenge. Well, Tomorrow is the big day, when i can finally pick up some nice bits and a new router. The bits I will be picking up are the Raised panel door set from Freud. I havent seen another set in my local area to choose from to make nice cabinet doors. (home depot's ect) 

With that being said, the first niche Ive decided to dive into and learn the ins and outs is kitchen & bath Re-facing. Starting off by making some nice custom doors for kitchen cupboards and bathroom vanity doors to practice, and if the ones that end up in nice qaulity, I will finish/stain and hopefully start creating a nice selection of doors that potential customers can choose from. I do realize that you can ebay doors very cheap, but I still see them selling like hot cakes in my local home depot, and they arent the cheapest to purchase as a very generic pattern and style.


----------



## jeremy budgen (Oct 9, 2010)

As an experienced woodworker for the past 27 years you get to know all the little in and outs of wood working and its dangers as well as highs, there is something to be said of a wood worker with all his or her fingers so be careful when doing any work with electrical equipment.

I see that today you are going to buy a panel set for the frame and panel manufacturing of doors.

Just get used to large bits in a table mounted router (you must use a table, no free hand stuff with those cutters) be shure to route the tenons first before running down the length of the rails, with the panel side are you going to use solid wood or plywood panel, if solid is the choice then route the end grain first on one end and then rotate each side with the last side being the long grain routing.


----------



## jeremy budgen (Oct 9, 2010)

I am in the kitchen business here in South Africa, so if you need any advise just let me know.


----------



## Mahaney (Oct 15, 2010)

Ive picked up a 3 1/4 horse router and freuds rail and stile set (261) and I grabbed some 1 by 12 pine to do my first set of doors to put an uplift on my mothers kitchen. (I am using my fathers shop, so its only fair  ) So far ive made some nice rail and stile peices, seems to be great under the table, as long as im holding my wood tight and firm. Now, today I picked up a decorative bit, 

FREUD 1-1/2 In. x 1/4 In. Radius Classical Cove & Bead Bit - 38-352


Now im worried this wont work for what I wanted to use it for, I think im going to take it back after work today. Im planning on using this to create a nice decortive finish to the rail and stiles. It looks like its too big to use on the face of a stile or rail thats 3/4 thick ... should I bring this bit back?


----------



## Mahaney (Oct 15, 2010)

Mahaney said:


> Ive picked up a 3 1/4 horse router and freuds rail and stile set (261) and I grabbed some 1 by 12 pine to do my first set of doors to put an uplift on my mothers kitchen. (I am using my fathers shop, so its only fair  ) So far ive made some nice rail and stile peices, seems to be great under the table, as long as im holding my wood tight and firm. Now, today I picked up a decorative bit,
> 
> FREUD 1-1/2 In. x 1/4 In. Radius Classical Cove & Bead Bit - 38-352
> 
> ...




also, when im buying my raised panel bits ,should i always pick them up with a back cutter for table use?


----------



## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi 

You should ALWAYS use the big bits on the router table,never in a hand router, back cutter that's 50/50 thing for most ,I like them with the back cutter...the job is done with one bit..

Take the bit back and pickup a SET with all 3 bits or with 6 bits in the set..made for making cabinet doors..

Note the bigger bearing on the set below,it also come with the smaller bearing too,,it makes it safer to use the big bit..

6-Pc Cabinet Making Set-Sommerfeld's Tools For Wood

http://www.sommerfeldtools.com/Clearance/products/538/

Just a note they ship chop chop I'm almost sure you can have them in 3 days..at your door step..

=====



Mahaney said:


> also, when im buying my raised panel bits ,should i always pick them up with a back cutter for table use?


----------



## Mahaney (Oct 15, 2010)

bobj3 said:


> Hi
> 
> You should ALWAYS use the big bits on the router table,never in a hand router, back cutter that's 50/50 thing for most ,I like them with the back cutter...the job is done with one bit..
> 
> ...


Yeah ofcourse, I plan to only use a table. 

The reason I didnt buy the set is because it was 159.99.. when the rail and stile were 99.99 on their own, and in the set came a raised panel bit with no back cutter.. and i would rather spend 80-100 bucks on the back cutter panel bit, from what people are telling me.

Im just curious is that classic cove bead bit will work to make a nice finishing edge to the rails and stiles, or should i just focus on round over bits and face moulding bits for real decorative frames


----------



## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

HI 

You must take care using a round over bit or any other the profile bit on the door frame parts if you are going to use pocket hole hinges, you need the stock on the edge of the door frame parts , a min. of 9/16" to 5/8" thick the norm..but if you are going to used the standard hinges you need a min. of 1/2" thick stock the norm. 

=========



Mahaney said:


> Yeah ofcourse, I plan to only use a table.
> 
> The reason I didnt buy the set is because it was 159.99.. when the rail and stile were 99.99 on their own, and in the set came a raised panel bit with no back cutter.. and i would rather spend 80-100 bucks on the back cutter panel bit, from what people are telling me.
> 
> Im just curious is that classic cove bead bit will work to make a nice finishing edge to the rails and stiles, or should i just focus on round over bits and face moulding bits for real decorative frames


----------



## Mahaney (Oct 15, 2010)

bobj3 said:


> HI
> 
> You must take care using a round over bit or any other the profile bit on the door frame parts if you are going to use pocket hole hinges, you need the stock on the edge of the door frame parts , a min. of 9/16" to 5/8" thick the norm..but if you are going to used the standard hinges you need a min. of 1/2" thick stock the norm.
> 
> =========


that went over my head, but im pretty sure im catching the drift. would the door look really strange if i left the hinge stile alone, and just decorated the far stile and the two rails


----------



## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

HI 

That would work but it would look a bit strange, a nice 1/8" or 1/4" round over will clean up the edge nice..and take off the sharp edge look..and feel..you know wood if you run your hand down it ,, it likes to leave something behind in your hand or rag..

=========





Mahaney said:


> that went over my head, but im pretty sure im catching the drift. would the door look really strange if i left the hinge stile alone, and just decorated the far stile and the two rails


----------



## Mahaney (Oct 15, 2010)

bobj3 said:


> HI
> 
> That would work but it would look a bit strange, a nice 1/8" or 1/4" round over will clean up the edge nice..and take off the sharp edge look..and feel..you know wood if you run your hand down it ,, it likes to leave something behind in your hand or rag..
> 
> =========


yeah that makes more sense, i think ill bring back this bit and pick up a round over set

I'll post some pictures tomorrow or the next day of my progress


----------



## Mahaney (Oct 15, 2010)

bobj3 said:


> HI
> 
> That would work but it would look a bit strange, a nice 1/8" or 1/4" round over will clean up the edge nice..and take off the sharp edge look..and feel..you know wood if you run your hand down it ,, it likes to leave something behind in your hand or rag..
> 
> =========


Freud - FREUD 1-1/2 In. x 1/4 In. Radius Classical Cove & Bead Bit - 38-352 - Home Depot Canada

This is the bit i picked up today.. definately wouldent work on a 2 1/2 by 3/4 frame ?


----------



## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

HI

It will work , but you can't use the full profile of the bit  ( just the 1/4 In. Radius of the bit but with care  this bit is made for 1 1/2" thick stock the norm..

Great bit for the Wainscoting type R & S frames.. 
Wainscoting Router Bit Sets Home Improvement Project

*
*


=========



Mahaney said:


> Freud - FREUD 1-1/2 In. x 1/4 In. Radius Classical Cove & Bead Bit - 38-352 - Home Depot Canada
> 
> This is the bit i picked up today.. definately wouldent work on a 2 1/2 by 3/4 frame ?


----------



## Mahaney (Oct 15, 2010)

ahhh, yes. On my lunch break i went and sat out in the truck holding the bit up to a peice of 1x12 pine, and i came to the same conclusion.. If i use half of the bit, (or just to the point where the widest cutting edge isnt touching my frame) It just might put a beautiful finish to the frame. 

thanks for that link!


----------



## RJM (Apr 11, 2010)

I like this bit for the outside edges of cabinet doors. It also eleiminates the need for door and drawer handles.

Freud Finger Pull Bitt 99-064

Note - this is the 99-064, not the 99-065 (which I don't like).


----------



## Mahaney (Oct 15, 2010)

RJM60 said:


> I like this bit for the outside edges of cabinet doors. It also eleiminates the need for door and drawer handles.
> 
> Freud Finger Pull Bitt 99-064
> 
> Note - this is the 99-064, not the 99-065 (which I don't like).


Agreed, that would be a neat little blade to have in the collection


----------

