# Cut my first dovetail on Leigh D4R Pro help.



## 96BelisleAs (Aug 13, 2013)

I've only ever used a router maybe twice in my life and just got my new Leigh D4R Pro in the mail the other day so I figured I'd give it a shot. I cut my first through dovetail and it stunk, I took too much off and the fit was very loose. I watched the Leigh CD again and added a bit to my pins length to fix the loose issue. They seemed to fit perfectly the second time but I had a gap between my pins and tail. 

The gap was because my pin was too long. I cheated and chopped off the pins (maybe (1/16 )with my miter saw but was curious what caused it? Even after cutting it with a miter saw they are still a tiny bit unflush, nothing a little sanding wouldn't fix. I would say I am pleased with my second attempt. I feel with a little help my third will be perfect.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

how proud were the pins before you trimmed them????


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## 96BelisleAs (Aug 13, 2013)

If I had to guess 1/16. Like I mentioned after trimming it down the joints fit snug, but are still a tiny amount maybe 1/64 sticking out on each side.

Maybe shortening my straight router bit depth on my pin cuts would do it?


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

bit set to cut too deep or the setting on the gray scale needs tweaking...
both...
use a LA plane yo trim that 1/64'' or a paring chisel...
avoid sanding to remoce material because of the different grains of wood...


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## DonkeyHody (Jan 22, 2015)

Your bit depth is too deep by the amount the pins are too long. Check the manual, page 8-16 on adjusting bit depth. 

Rather than change bits and re-adjust, I've found it very helpful to have two routers with a bit in each.


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## cocobolo1 (Dec 31, 2015)

96BelisleAs said:


> I've only ever used a router maybe twice in my life and just got my new Leigh D4R Pro in the mail the other day so I figured I'd give it a shot. I cut my first through dovetail and it stunk, I took too much off and the fit was very loose. I watched the Leigh CD again and added a bit to my pins length to fix the loose issue. They seemed to fit perfectly the second time but I had a gap between my pins and tail.
> 
> The gap was because my pin was too long. I cheated and chopped off the pins (maybe (1/16 )with my miter saw but was curious what caused it? Even after cutting it with a miter saw they are still a tiny bit unflush, nothing a little sanding wouldn't fix. I would say I am pleased with my second attempt. I feel with a little help my third will be perfect.


Eric, for a guy who has only used a router a couple of times, I'd say you didn't do too badly.

Another hour or two of practice and you'll be knocking out perfect dovetails by the boatload. :smile:


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## 96BelisleAs (Aug 13, 2013)

Stick486 said:


> bit set to cut too deep or the setting on the gray scale needs tweaking...
> both...
> use a LA plane yo trim that 1/64'' or a paring chisel...
> avoid sanding to remoce material because of the different grains of wood...


That is what I figured. I like to think about what I think went wrong then ask to see if my conclusion was the right one. It was just my first test piece so I am not too worried about it for now. An orbital sander wouldn't work? I don't have any hand planers or chisels. 



DonkeyHody said:


> Your bit depth is too deep by the amount the pins are too long. Check the manual, page 8-16 on adjusting bit depth.
> 
> Rather than change bits and re-adjust, I've found it very helpful to have two routers with a bit in each.


From now unless I get comfortable with it I might set my depth a little shy of what I think it should be. I remember when making the cuts being worried it was too long. I do have another router but its a cheap Black and Decker Storm plunge router and wasn't sure if it was of good enough quality, I didn't want to risk it messing up my work.



cocobolo1 said:


> Eric, for a guy who has only used a router a couple of times, I'd say you didn't do too badly.
> 
> Another hour or two of practice and you'll be knocking out perfect dovetails by the boatload. :smile:


 I used one once when I was maybe 13-14 (over 20 years ago)and one for a few minutes last year. I am new to pretty much all of this but as long as I can follow simple instructions through online videos and articles, with the help from you guys, it is really not too difficult. 

My biggest issue is I have to get some lumber. I gave almost all of mine away to my neighbor when we built a tree house for his kids last fall. I literally have only a couple pieces to practice on at the moment. I need to get busy because I'll be starting my first project as soon as my friend gets their tax return back. I am going to build something like this (below)......and I want to incorporate through and sliding dovetails.


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## cocobolo1 (Dec 31, 2015)

96BelisleAs said:


> That is what I figured. I like to think about what I think went wrong then ask to see if my conclusion was the right one. It was just my first test piece so I am not too worried about it for now. An orbital sander wouldn't work? I don't have any hand planers or chisels.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Certainly wish you all the best on your project. Quite ambitious for a first serious try.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

96BelisleAs said:


> That is what I figured. I like to think about what I think went wrong then ask to see if my conclusion was the right one. It was just my first test piece so I am not too worried about it for now. An orbital sander wouldn't work? I don't have any hand planers or chisels.
> 
> I am going to build something like this (below)......and I want to incorporate through and sliding dovetails.


sure an ROS would work but you need to be really careful because the face side of the wood will sand away much easier than the end grain leaving a wavy profile...
hold the sander as flat as you can and keep it moving...
100/120 grit is really course for this....
do you own any chisels at all???
can you sharpen really well...
if you want a decent life time set look to the Stanley Fat Max chisels *MADE IN ENGLAND*....
the made in China ones are a crap shoot...
just need to look for them...
Narex from the Czech Republic are very good buy/value and not bad chisels either.....

the dovetails...
do you plan to use them elsewhere other than the drawers...

nice well done center you have there...
for those shelves dado the side walls...
insert/glue the shelves into the dado...
pin/pocket screw the shelves from the bottom of the shelf into the side walls and avoid the fasteners and filler from the outside...


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## DonkeyHody (Jan 22, 2015)

96BelisleAs said:


> From now unless I get comfortable with it I might set my depth a little shy of what I think it should be. I remember when making the cuts being worried it was too long.


You only get one chance at bit depth with a dovetail bit. If you adjust the depth and make a second pass, you'll end up with notches on the sides of the cut. 

The only way I've found to get consistent results with the dovetail jig is to tinker with scrap OF THE SAME THICKNESS AS YOUR FINAL WORKPIECE until you get a good joint ON THE FIRST PASS. The reason is this: When you put the workpiece back in the jig for a second try, it will be a thousandth or so away from its original position. The router bit will shave that thousandth off one side of your pins or tails, but it doesn't put any wood back on the other side. So your pins or tails get narrower and the cuts get wider. That may make your test joint fit, but it's not easily repeatable. 

So keep tinkering with scrap. Cut the pins and tails off your two test pieces and try again until you get good joints on the first pass. Then you're ready to move on to your workpiece. 

That's why I like having two routers for dovetailing. Once you find the proper bit depth, you can quit fussing with that and only worry about adjusting the jig properly, and keeping track of the inside and outside of the drawer, and remembering to use the correct bit on the correct side of the jig, and I forget what else . . . .

Oh, you'll need a second guide bushing to use two routers. 

I took a Sharpie and wrote INSIDE 2 ME on one side of the jig and OUTSIDE 2 ME on the flip side of the jig. The color of the ink matches the color of the router I use on that side. That's after multiple screw-ups where I put the board in backwards or grabbed the wrong router. 

A lot of things have to be right to make good dovetails, and a momentary lapse of attention can leave you cursing. But it's wonderful when it all comes together. 
Keep at it, and Good Luck!


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## 96BelisleAs (Aug 13, 2013)

cocobolo1 said:


> Certainly wish you all the best on your project. Quite ambitious for a first serious try.


I am pretty confident as long as I take my time making sure everything is measured correctly and the tools are dialed in correctly it will turn out perfect. 



Stick486 said:


> sure an ROS would work but you need to be really care careful because the face side of the wood will sand away much easier than the end grain leaving a wavy profile...
> hold the sander as flat as you can keep it moving...
> 100/120 grit is really course for this....
> do you own any chisels at all???
> ...


I just started buying the tools to do this a month ago. I might own one chisel if I can find it, its probably in rough shape. I do have a double wheel stone grinder but rarely have used it. I was going to do sliding dovetails for the shelves so I didn't have to do any pocket screws. I wanted to see if I could possible do some sort of dovetailing for the overall boxes on the entertainment stand. 

All in all its going to come down to if I can find cheap enough lumber to work with. If not I'll have to go with oak veneer plywood which I would prefer not to do and it would limit me on how to build it. The chisels will probably have to wait a few months until I can get more funds. 

My biggest concern with the entertainment center is I'm not sure how I was going to connect the three segments (boxes) together and if I need to join to boards the best way to do so. Biscuits? I want to build something that is going to last that I can be proud of. Something that can be moved around without parts coming loose or falling apart. 

Whats the norm as far as a good brand of wood glue goes?




DonkeyHody said:


> You only get one chance at bit depth with a dovetail bit. If you adjust the depth and make a second pass, you'll end up with notches on the sides of the cut.
> 
> The only way I've found to get consistent results with the dovetail jig is to tinker with scrap OF THE SAME THICKNESS AS YOUR FINAL WORKPIECE until you get a good joint ON THE FIRST PASS. The reason is this: When you put the workpiece back in the jig for a second try, it will be a thousandth or so away from its original position. The router bit will shave that thousandth off one side of your pins or tails, but it doesn't put any wood back on the other side. So your pins or tails get narrower and the cuts get wider. That may make your test joint fit, but it's not easily repeatable.
> 
> ...


I think I was already hooked the second time I attempted them. Once I am ready to start my project I will do plenty of test passed on scraps before making my finals cuts. I have multiple bushings but will have to pick up more templates. Had I had more suitable scrap laying around I would have gone dovetail crazy.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

96BelisleAs said:


> 1... I am pretty confident as long as I take my time making sure everything is measured correctly and the tools are dialed in correctly it will turn out perfect.
> 2... I just started buying the tools to do this a month ago. I might own one chisel if I can find it, its probably in rough shape.
> 3... I do have a double wheel stone grinder but rarely have used it.
> 4... I was going to do sliding dovetails for the shelves so I didn't have to do any pocket screws. I wanted to see if I could possible do some sort of dovetailing for the overall boxes on the entertainment stand.
> ...


1... w/o a doubt..
2... same thing many of did decades ago and are still buying..
try to buy the best you can from the start so you don't have to buy it again later...
3... not a good move to to sharpen on a grinder.. 
you'll never get *''really'' *sharp...
4... dadoes are way stronger and simpler.. sliders the 1st time around can be an undertaking...
save the sliders for your drawer glides...
5... can't help you there...
6... buy one chisel at a time... 
start w/ a ¾'' and then move up and down from there..
or the 4 piece set should do you well + 1 really wide chisel... (use it as the paring/trimmer chisel)..
in the long run it's more expensive to do it that way but a smaller initial outlay...
get a really cheap chisel and use it a utility chisel.. ie: glue scraper...
7... screws, nuts an bolts but *NEVER EVER use drywall screws...*
8... Splines.. hard to beat and way better than biscuits...
A slot cutter set w/ multiple dia bearings is a very good way to go...
save the money you'd spend on a biscuit joiner and use it for something that you will get more mileage out of and will multitask for you....
get the joiner later if you still see the need..
Freud Tools | 2" (Dia.) Stacked Slotting Set
Buy CMT 800.506.11 Slot Cutter Router Bit Set 1/2"SH 1/8"-23/32"H 1-7/8"D at Woodcraft.com
9... dadoes w/ the pocket holes...
a slider if it's torqued can break at the neck of the pin...
good place to start... very handy little number...
Shop Kreg Mini Kreg Jig Pocket Hole Kit at Lowes.com
10.. most use the PVA glues ie: TiteBond made by Franklin... 
I use Franklin.. same glue for less money...

11.. Welcome to the club...

.


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## 96BelisleAs (Aug 13, 2013)

Thanks for the heads up. Unfortunately I already bought a PC Biscuit/Plate Joiner. I do already have a Kreg Pocket hole jig. Unless its something that is cheap my budget is completely tapped out for awhile and I'll have to make do with what I have for the time being.


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## DonkeyHody (Jan 22, 2015)

If you begin using two routers, you will probably find that your drawer sides and ends are offset like this (exaggerated for clarity). This is because the two router bushings are not identically positioned with respect to the bit. You'll need to fiddle with the bushing position to get it right. It's sort of counter-intuitive to me. Seems I had to move the bushing opposite to the way I thought it should go to get a better fit. Anyway, it's one more thing to fiddle with and get right while you're practicing on scrap. 

Then, once you have everything set up just like you want it, and you're making perfect dovetails, that's when you need to use a router for something else. That's why you buy a THIRD router, then a FOURTH and so on . . .


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## 96BelisleAs (Aug 13, 2013)

DonkeyHody said:


> If you begin using two routers, you will probably find that your drawer sides and ends are offset like this (exaggerated for clarity). This is because the two router bushings are not identically positioned with respect to the bit. You'll need to fiddle with the bushing position to get it right. It's sort of counter-intuitive to me. Seems I had to move the bushing opposite to the way I thought it should go to get a better fit. Anyway, it's one more thing to fiddle with and get right while you're practicing on scrap.
> 
> Then, once you have everything set up just like you want it, and you're making perfect dovetails, that's when you need to use a router for something else. That's why you buy a THIRD router, then a FOURTH and so on . . .


I'm not ready to invest in a third or fourth router that is for sure. I'll make sure I hold onto my scrap from now on so I have plenty of wood laying around to test on. What are your opinions on instead of using biscuits or splines, using dowels to join two 1x8 pieces of wood to make a 1x16?


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

two routers for the jig...
one w/ a straight bit for hogging...
2nd for the DT bit...

if you set the straight really deep (over cut) you fill what will amount to small dado in the tail piece that you fill repair w/ a high contrast wood filler...


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## DonkeyHody (Jan 22, 2015)

96BelisleAs said:


> What are your opinions on instead of using biscuits or splines, using dowels to join two 1x8 pieces of wood to make a 1x16?


Edge-to-edge glue-ups have such large glue areas that they are plenty strong without any dowels or biscuits. I consider biscuits and dowels to be alignment aids instead of strength enhancers for these glue-ups. If my boards are both straight, I don't use anything but glue. Titebond III. 

Now end-grain glue-ups are a different story. The end grain soaks up glue, and the glued surface is usually small with potential for heavy loading forces. They need help in the form of biscuits, dowels, finger joints or dovetails or such.


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## 96BelisleAs (Aug 13, 2013)

Thanks guys. In case any of you guys ebay. For another 2 hours or so if you spend $75 or more on your total purchase you get $15 off. Code is C15SPRING I added 4 items to my cart all totaled up to $85 and it worked for me. Also since I was careful to make sure they were not listed in the Industrial category I got 2% back ebay bucks, 2% back on ebates, and 2% on my double cash card. So all in all I got a igaging vertical digital 3:1 guide, a igaging digital I54 Fractions Caliper 6", a brass igaging marking 2:1 tool and a Dowl It Wellman Self Centering Dowell Guide all for less than $65 shipped. 

Ebay has been having a lot of $15 for $75 or $20 off for $100 off days three in the last 10 days or so. So if you are like me and like picking up a few odds and ends when ebay has these deals let me know and I have no issue messaging anyone if and when I find out on the deals. They are normally only good for 5 hours or so.


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## 96BelisleAs (Aug 13, 2013)

Well I ended up buying my second Bosch 1617 Router so it would be easier to just switch routers instead of changing my bits. My issue is even though the dovetails are tighter than my first attempt I am having an offset issue. Meaning when I connect the boards together the edges do not align. They are off quite a bit maybe 1/8". I cut multiple times and the only thing I came up with is its not the set up of the jig but me using multiple routers. I am using the Bosch RA1125 Template Guides but never centered either so I am guessing that is the issue? I have never used a centering cone but did buy the RA1151. Both routers are using the same exact 7/16 template. Considering how perfect the boards lined up using one router am I correct that my issue is in the set up of the second router? 

The new fingers I cut fit into the first dovetails I cut and line up correctly. However the new fingers I cut do not fit into the new tails. The tail bit is on the new router I just bought. Do you guys who use this jig ever get joints where you cannot see daylight through any of them when holding it up to light? I am hoping my expectations are too high because it seems it might take forever to get them seem less.


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## DonkeyHody (Jan 22, 2015)

Yes, your issue is two routers with bushings not set up the same. See my post above with the red and yellow drawing. Always keep the same router handle in your right hand and try not to twist the router but go straight in and out. Then, if your bushing is off-center at least it will be consistent. 

Loosen the bushing on one router or the other and move it slightly to left or right and try again on scrap. Keep messing with it until the edges line up.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

are you using on router for the DT bit and the other for a straight bit for hogging out material???


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## 96BelisleAs (Aug 13, 2013)

Yes I am using one router for the tail bit (Leigh 80-8)and a separate router for the finger bit (Leigh 140-8). When I used one router when I originally made this thread my boards lined up perfectly. I changed nothing on my jig since that time nor did I ever remove the (Leigh 140-8) finger bit from my first router. The only thing that has changed in the equation is putting the tail router bit in the second router and using it. The tails fit fine (though there is a tiny gap in some of them where light can be seen through the space), they are just offset on the board edges when the tail is merged with the finger board.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

what am missing here..
you are set correctly for the DT bit...
and you are set light for the straight bit...
and you are cutting out of tolerance???


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## 96BelisleAs (Aug 13, 2013)

Stick486 said:


> what am missing here..
> you are set correctly for the DT bit...
> and you are set light for the straight bit...
> and you are cutting out of tolerance???


Yep. Other than using a different router nothing has changed from the first time I made my dovetail. Its acting like I need to move over the part you butt your piece up to when you clamp it but of course I cannot. Here are a few photos, its a scrap piece I have been practice on.

First photo is the tail board I first cut when I used one router for both tail and finger boards a week ago. The finger board I just cut today. They fit pretty snug and the boards are flush when locked together.




Here is a picture of the same finger board I cut last week but in the new tail board I just cut today. Nothing on the jig has changed. The only thing that changed was I used a second router for the tail board. notice the off set, its roughly 1/16 or so.


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## DonkeyHody (Jan 22, 2015)

Stick486 said:


> what am missing here..
> you are set correctly for the DT bit...
> and you are set light for the straight bit...
> and you are cutting out of tolerance???


He has moved on from his original problem. He bought a second router, which introduced a new problem: The top edge of the drawer side doesn't match up with the top edge of the drawer back/front. 

The cause is that one or both of the guide bushings aren't centered with respect to the bit. As long as you only use one router, it doesn't matter because the error is consistent. But now that he has two routers, the bushing errors don't match. One is off to the left, the other to the right.


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## 96BelisleAs (Aug 13, 2013)

DonkeyHody said:


> He has moved on from his original problem. He bought a second router, which introduced a new problem: The top edge of the drawer side doesn't match up with the top edge of the drawer back/front.
> 
> The cause is that one or both of the guide bushings aren't centered with respect to the bit. As long as you only use one router, it doesn't matter because the error is consistent. But now that he has two routers, the bushing errors don't match. One is off to the left, the other to the right.


This is what I thought. So by using a centering cone on both routers this should fix the issue? I figured there might be a little play in it but I was surprised it was off by that much.


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## woodknots (Mar 7, 2012)

If I understand correctly, you are using *ONE* template guide (7/16) on two routers, so that means you are switching it from one router to the other.
If that is the case, since you bought the centering cone, you need to use it. I have the Bosch guides and centering cone and when I put the guide into my 1617 with a dovetail bit, the offset was obvious to the naked eye.

The only other possibility, although slim is that the second board wasn't butted up completely to the side stop on the jig.


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## 96BelisleAs (Aug 13, 2013)

vchiarelli said:


> If I understand correctly, you are using *ONE* template guide (7/16) on two routers, so that means you are switching it from one router to the other.
> If that is the case, since you bought the centering cone, you need to use it. I have the Bosch guides and centering cone and when I put the guide into my 1617 with a dovetail bit, the offset was obvious to the naked eye.
> 
> The only other possibility, although slim is that the second board wasn't butted up completely to the side stop on the jig.


No. I bought two of the templates sets. I never touched the other router after using it for my fingers when I first did them when I made this thread originally. As for not being butted up I've made multiple cuts with the same result. So the only thing it can be is the router.

I'll try and use my digital caliper and see if the templates are offset from one router to the next. I am almost certain it has to be the second router, its the only thing that has changed since I first made my dovetails.


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## woodknots (Mar 7, 2012)

96BelisleAs said:


> No. I bought two of the templates sets. I never touched the other router after using it for my fingers when I first did them when I made this thread originally. As for not being butted up I've made multiple cuts with the same result. So the only thing it can be is the router.
> 
> *I'll try and use my digital caliper and see if the templates are offset from one router to the next*. I am almost certain it has to be the second router, its the only thing that has changed since I first made my dovetails.


While you're there, check to make sure that the two templates are the same size


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## 96BelisleAs (Aug 13, 2013)

vchiarelli said:


> While you're there, check to make sure that the two templates are the same size


Of course I am using the same template. I measured it just to make sure they didn't put one of them in the wrong section in the case. I think I found the culprit though, looking at the space between the router bit hole in the template you can see the gap isn't even all the way around. Its off maybe 1/32. When I put the tail board back on the jig I can see there is more wood hanging out on the right fingers than on the left.

So now I just have to figure out how to use the centering cone and get the bit correctly centered on both routers.


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## woodknots (Mar 7, 2012)

96BelisleAs said:


> *Of course I am using the same template*. I measured it just to make sure they didn't put one of them in the wrong section in the case. I think I found the culprit though, looking at the space between the router bit hole in the template you can see the gap isn't even all the way around. Its off maybe 1/32. When I put the tail board back on the jig I can see there is more wood hanging out on the right fingers than on the left.
> 
> So now I just have to figure out how to use the centering cone and get the bit correctly centered on both routers.


I meant, check the two templates with your calipers to make sure they measure the same - I didn't mean two different sizes.

The centering cone shaft is 1/2 inch and 1/4 inch. Put either end of the shaft into the collet that's installed and snug with the cone portion like an upside down umbrella. The base plate should be loosely fastened. When you bring the base up to meet the cone, the base plate will center itself around the cone. At that point, tighten the screws holding the base plate to the base and your base plate will be centered. Do this without the templates in place.


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## 96BelisleAs (Aug 13, 2013)

You'd figure when you screw in the plate/templates that screwing them into already threaded holes would center it for you. When you guys make your dovetails, are your joints perfect, as in if you hold it up to light you cannot see any light in even the tiniest of gaps, or is there a slight gap allowance for expansion? I seem to get a few of them with no light and a few where I can barely fit in a piece of paper. I want to know what is acceptable when doing dovetails. 

I did check out some older furniture I have with dovetails and compared to what I am doing they look terrible but who knows what type of quality they are.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

too tight and there is no room for the glue..
I go for politely snug...
no real need for a mallet on assembly...


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

Eric...be careful with the self-centering jig...it requires the two boards you intend to join to be EXACTLY the same width...otherwise you will find a "step" when you assemble...


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## 96BelisleAs (Aug 13, 2013)

Stick486 said:


> too tight and there is no room for the glue..
> I go for politely snug...
> no real need for a mallet on assembly...


This is what I wanted to hear. I have a habit of trying to get things too perfect when it isn't needed. If that is the case I am doing just fine. However if they are mallet snug would you even need glue? Couldn't I just pop a few nails into them with a finishing nailer and call it good?



Nickp said:


> Eric...be careful with the self-centering jig...it requires the two boards you intend to join to be EXACTLY the same width...otherwise you will find a "step" when you assemble...


This is what happened when I didn't center either router. I figured same router model, same template sets, I shouldn't have to but I was wrong.


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

96BelisleAs said:


> This is what I wanted to hear. I have a habit of trying to get things too perfect when it isn't needed. If that is the case I am doing just fine. However if they are mallet snug would you even need glue? Couldn't I just pop a few nails into them with a finishing nailer and call it good?
> 
> 
> 
> This is what happened when I didn't center either router. I figured same router model, same template sets, I shouldn't have to but I was wrong.


Sorry...I was referring to the Dowel self centering jig...


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

96BelisleAs said:


> This is what I wanted to hear. I have a habit of trying to get things too perfect when it isn't needed. If that is the case I am doing just fine. However if they are mallet snug would you even need glue? Couldn't I just pop a few nails into them with a finishing nailer and call it good?


glue and no more than a couple of blind 23GA pins to act as clamps... three tops...
sparingly on the glue too...
the sometimes lighted gaps you might want to close up a light fuzz...


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

I guess I'll ask...

Why are two routers needed...?


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Nickp said:


> I guess I'll ask...
> 
> Why are two routers needed...?


one to hog w/ a straight bit and one to cut the dovetails...
I use a pair of Bosch MRC23EVS's...
and never experienced these issues...


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## DonkeyHody (Jan 22, 2015)

Nickp said:


> I guess I'll ask...
> 
> Why are two routers needed...?


I like having two routers because once you get a good joint, you don't have to remove the bits and readjust the depth again for the next drawer. Mine are set up for 5/8 inch thick drawer boxes and I never use those two routers for anything else. It makes dovetailed joints less frustrating and time consuming.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

DonkeyHody said:


> I like having two routers because once you get a good joint, you don't have to remove the bits and readjust the depth again for the next drawer. Mine are set up for 5/8 inch thick drawer boxes and I never use those two routers for anything else. It makes dovetailed joints less frustrating and time consuming.


now there's a man that's a thinker...


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## 96BelisleAs (Aug 13, 2013)

vchiarelli said:


> I meant, check the two templates with your calipers to make sure they measure the same - I didn't mean two different sizes.
> 
> The centering cone shaft is 1/2 inch and 1/4 inch. Put either end of the shaft into the collet that's installed and snug with the cone portion like an upside down umbrella. The base plate should be loosely fastened. When you bring the base up to meet the cone, the base plate will center itself around the cone. At that point, tighten the screws holding the base plate to the base and your base plate will be centered. Do this without the templates in place.


I centered it, but then noticed the template guide (Bosch RA1125) wasn't centered, so I centered that. Hopefully that will fix the issue. For you guys that use multiple routers for dovetails do you use a template kit similar to the Bosch RA1125? 

I am hoping if I do this to both routers and center it while leaving the Bosch Template guide in the router this will fix the issue. If not I'll have to go back to using one router. I do have a digital guide for routers so it wouldn't be a huge issue but still annoying to have to switch bits in and out if that is what it comes to.

I fiddled with everything on the jig a little and think as long as the routers are the same my joints should be perfect. I'd much rather have a bunch of routers for certain jobs and just leave them be then have to keep adjusting things.


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## 96BelisleAs (Aug 13, 2013)

Well I got the first router centered really well but the second one is giving me issues. Mainly just the Bosch Template/Bushings Guide. I wanted to cut some dovetails so I did it on one router. With the changes I made to the jig these are by far the best dovetails I made. The joints fit with essentially zero gap. I was lazy on my fingers and just set the depth by using the tail board I just cut. My depth on them was a tiny bit off but 1/64 maybe not even that, only issue I had is unlike the first time I cut the dovetails. Yet again I have a step/off set in the boards when combined. Its about 1/64. Is that normal/tolerable/acceptable or should they always come out perfectly flush? If its normal I think I got through dovetails down.


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## DonkeyHody (Jan 22, 2015)

96BelisleAs said:


> Well I got the first router centered really well but the second one is giving me issues. Mainly just the Bosch Template/Bushings Guide. I wanted to cut some dovetails so I did it on one router. With the changes I made to the jig these are by far the best dovetails I made. The joints fit with essentially zero gap. I was lazy on my fingers and just set the depth by using the tail board I just cut. My depth on them was a tiny bit off but 1/64 maybe not even that, only issue I had is unlike the first time I cut the dovetails. Yet again I have a step/off set in the boards when combined. Its about 1/64. Is that normal/tolerable/acceptable or should they always come out perfectly flush? If its normal I think I got through dovetails down.


1/64 is about as good as I get. Just sand the edges flush after glue-up.


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## 96BelisleAs (Aug 13, 2013)

The 1/64 isn't just for the ends of tails and fingers. Meaning my first and last finger edges don't line up perfect with the top and bottom of the other board. My board edges when the two boards are connected are off 1/64 that is my main concern. I just want to make sure we understand each other. If that is normal I must have just got lucky with the first dovetails I ever cut because the boards lined up perfectly.


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## woodknots (Mar 7, 2012)

Eric

Are the boards off by 1/64 on both edges, meaning top and bottom, one is proud the other is shy? If so, that tells me one of the boards wasn't flush against the side stop.

Can you post a picture of the full joinery including the top/bottom edge.


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## woodknots (Mar 7, 2012)

Eric

Further to my previous post, this video might explain what you are seeing. I know it's not the D4R pro and he's doing blind dovetails, not through, but the concept would be the same.


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## DonkeyHody (Jan 22, 2015)

Yes, I was talking about the sides and front/back being offset 1/64 or so at the top and bottom edge of the drawer. This can be caused by not being firm against the side stop in the jig, or when using two routers, if the guide bushings are not aligned the same with respect to the bit. If you keep fiddling with the guide bushings, you may get it perfect. When I got to 1/64, I just started sanding. Gotta sand the ends of the pins and tails anyway, I just sand the edges too.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

> For you guys that use multiple routers for dovetails do you use a template kit similar to the Bosch RA1125?


Yes... the 1125..


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## woodknots (Mar 7, 2012)

Eric - I'm not sure if you're still using two routers or one. I presume you have the manual for your jig. I had a look at it online at Leigh's website and found this:

See the attached screenshot of the relevant section.dddddd


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## 96BelisleAs (Aug 13, 2013)

vchiarelli said:


> Eric
> 
> Are the boards off by 1/64 on both edges, meaning top and bottom, one is proud the other is shy? If so, that tells me one of the boards wasn't flush against the side stop.
> 
> Can you post a picture of the full joinery including the top/bottom edge.


I'll have to get a picture tomorrow, if I remember. I watched the video. Looks like my joints are too tight. Is glue absolutely needed if your joints are really tight (if you use nails) on lets say something like drawers? I always make sure the board is completely butted up to the fingers and the stop every time. 

Tomorrow I'll try and get the second router set up and centered better, but for now it looks like I'll be using one router until I do. I'm not building anything yet, just getting familiar playing with the toys so no big rush. I just want to have through dovetails down and fully understand them before I move on.


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## woodknots (Mar 7, 2012)

96BelisleAs said:


> I'll have to get a picture tomorrow, if I remember. I watched the video. Looks like my joints are too tight. *Is glue absolutely needed if your joints are really tight (if you use nails) on lets say something like drawers?* I always make sure the board is completely butted up to the fingers and the stop every time.
> 
> Tomorrow I'll try and get the second router set up and centered better, but for now it looks like I'll be using one router until I do. I'm not building anything yet,* just getting familiar playing with the toys so no big rush. I just want to have through dovetails down and fully understand them before I move on*.


In my view, dovetails serve two purposes: strength and decorative
The dovetail joint is strong because it provides a lot of surface for glue.
Dovetails also look nice. So from a decorative aspect, I wouldn't use nails. Some joinery methods are designed to avoid mechanical fasteners.

Is glue needed? Depends on the application. In the case of drawers, what type of drawer is it? A kitchen drawer that might get pulled open several times a day, every day needs more strength than a small drawer in a jewellery box that might get opened only occasionally.

By the nature of the joint, and the way it is designed, even a loose fitting joint won't pull apart - it won't look good but that's another story.

Good plan on the testing and practicing. I don't have a D4R (too expensive, don't need one). I do have a less expensive jig and spent some time fiddling with it until I finally got the joint lined up. When I did, I used a digital dial caliper to measure the exact bit height, then recorded that information on the sample pieces along with the router I used.


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## 96BelisleAs (Aug 13, 2013)

vchiarelli said:


> In my view, dovetails serve two purposes: strength and decorative
> The dovetail joint is strong because it provides a lot of surface for glue.
> Dovetails also look nice. So from a decorative aspect, I wouldn't use nails. Some joinery methods are designed to avoid mechanical fasteners.
> 
> ...


That is why I like a tight fitting joint. It just seems better to me. The only issue I would run into would be when I glue it. There wouldn't be enough room and the glue would get pushed out. That and normal wood glue would expand the joint possibly breaking it. I was thinking about using something that wouldn't swell and could be used on tighter joints, maybe like the Titebond Liquid Hide Glue? 

I am still researching everything but it seems its personal opinion/preference on if you have a joint that needs to be set with a firm whack with a mallet or one that can be easily pushed in or out by hand. Since I am new to this I am sure my preference will more than likely change the more I learn and do.


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## 96BelisleAs (Aug 13, 2013)

Sorry for the late pictures. Here they are, other then being a hair long, I am really satisfied with the joints. The more I get used to the Leigh Jig the more I think the Porter Cable Jig System I bought and have yet to open is going to get returned unless there is a reason to own both.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

no reason to own both...


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## DonkeyHody (Jan 22, 2015)

Looks to me like you are ready for the real thing. Got to remember to put the opposite face of each board to the jig though, so your dado for the drawer bottom winds up on the inside of the drawer box. >


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## 96BelisleAs (Aug 13, 2013)

DonkeyHody said:


> Looks to me like you are ready for the real thing. Got to remember to put the opposite face of each board to the jig though, so your dado for the drawer bottom winds up on the inside of the drawer box. >


Thanks. Not my dado cut though, it was already cut when I got the boards. Came with the one of the jigs I bought. The first dovetails I cut are on the other ends of the boards so I just leave it as it is. 

Any advice on using the Titebond Liquid Hide Glue since the joints are so tight as opposed to the normal stuff?


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

I just use regular Franklin wood glue sparingly applied to half of the cuts so when you put them together the glue puses on to the surfaces w/o glue.....
put the joint together and use a speed square clamped to the inside to hold the joint at 90° till the glue sets...


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## DonkeyHody (Jan 22, 2015)

Stick got it right about the glue (as always). I have a plastic glue paddle from Rockler that I like for applying the glue to the surfaces of tails & pins. You could use a flat piece of wood about the size of a popsicle stick instead. Or a small brush, but I like the paddle better.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

still can't beat an acid brush...
if you cut the bristles down by half to two thirds their length you'll be golden...


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