# Fuming White Oak?



## TrevortdogR (Feb 11, 2013)

I'm building speaker stands out of quarter sawn white oak and plan on fuming them.

What are you guys experiences with fuming?


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

dangerous..
do you know how to???
do you even have a source for straight ammonia???


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

No but I've read up on it a bit. It was common during the Mission Furniture period. H. H. Windsor wrote a series of articles that appeared in Popular Mechanics back about 100 years ago. It was compiled into a book eventually. Fuming was part of the look and one or more of the articles describes the process in detail. The copyrights have expired long ago and I've seen free downloads of the book on the net although the book is also available, usually at a reasonable price. It's a reasonably good investment if you like Mission furniture as the book is a series of designs which you can build or use for inspiration.

All of the designs Windsor intended to be made from white oak which is high in tannin which is what the ammonia vapors react with. Basically you just build a tent around the piece and leave a saucer of ammonia inside and wait. It takes days for the process to work. I have no idea what the strength of ammonia Windsor had available to him at the time but I would use the strongest that you can find.


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## TrevortdogR (Feb 11, 2013)

Stick486 said:


> dangerous..
> do you know how to???
> do you even have a source for straight ammonia???


Just what I have read & seen on the web, and I would only use the 10% grade that can be bought at ace hardware and I do understand ammonia is dangerous so I would use the protective gear necessary.


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## TrevortdogR (Feb 11, 2013)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> No but I've read up on it a bit. It was common during the Mission Furniture period. H. H. Windsor wrote a series of articles that appeared in Popular Mechanics back about 100 years ago. It was compiled into a book eventually. Fuming was part of the look and one or more of the articles describes the process in detail. The copyrights have expired long ago and I've seen free downloads of the book on the net although the book is also available, usually at a reasonable price. It's a reasonably good investment if you like Mission furniture as the book is a series of designs which you can build or use for inspiration.
> 
> All of the designs Windsor intended to be made from white oak which is high in tannin which is what the ammonia vapors react with. Basically you just build a tent around the piece and leave a saucer of ammonia inside and wait. It takes days for the process to work. I have no idea what the strength of ammonia Windsor had available to him at the time but I would use the strongest that you can find.


Pretty much what I have read & seen online.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Stick486 said:


> dangerous..
> do you know how to???
> do you even have a source for straight ammonia???


H. H. Windsor wouldn't have had access to straight ammonia Stick. He would only have had access to aqueous ammonia which would have been greatly diluted from pure anhydrous ammonia. Twice a year I head over to Alberta and haul anhydrous ammonia to the farmers who use it in their fields. Anhydrous is the cheapest form of nitrogen fertilizer being 82% by weight. You are quite right about the hazards. I have to take a course to handle it and wear a full face mask respirator as well as protective clothing. Depending on ambient temperature it is usually at a pressure of 50-100psi, it evaporates at -33C, and is extremely caustic.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

it's been a lot of decades since I've done any...
or Anhydrous ammonia wood bending either..
there must have been some very good reasons...
postponing my death is one that immediately comes to mind.......

FWIW...
fuming effects continue after the piece is removed from the fumes...
the fumes react w/ the tannin causing the wood to darken and it's grain to ''pop''...
results from household ammonia never seems to compare in results as when Anhydrous is used..


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## TrevortdogR (Feb 11, 2013)

I would use Ace Ammonia which contains 10% ammonium hydroxide.
http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=1272325


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

Why???

Herb


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

adds darkening to the wood w/o hiding the grain...
also makes the grain stand out...

and you MUST have final sanding done before you fume...

or all bets are off...


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## TrevortdogR (Feb 11, 2013)

Stick486 said:


> adds darkening to the wood w/o hiding the grain...
> also makes the grain stand out...
> 
> and you MUST have final sanding done before you fume...
> ...


What is the final grit for sanding when doing this, 180?


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

TrevortdogR said:


> What is the final grit for sanding when doing this, 180?


what ever you do normally...


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## JFPNCM (Dec 13, 2009)

Brings to mind comments about mad hatters disease. If it is that dangerous and based on my basic knowledge of chemistry it definitely could be, why bother. Beauty is not worth your health.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Having worked in a blueprint shop when I was young, where amonia spills occurred once in awhile, I say find another finish. That stuff is far nastier than most people think.


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## CharleyL (Feb 28, 2009)

When I was a fireman I had to stop a major leak of Anhydrous Ammonia leaking from a semi tank trailer just up hill from the village that I lived in. Even with full body protection and a Scot Pack full face SCBA mask on (air supplied from a tank on my back), the stuff seeped into my gloves and boots (even though they were sealed to my hazmat suit with duct tape), making the cuticles around my finger and toe nails burn. This burning sensation continued for days afterward, and my nails didn't grow well for months after this incident. I had a scrape on my arm that had almost healed and the ammonia caused major pain in it to the point that I almost couldn't get the leak stopped, because my arm hurt so bad. It also took much longer to heal after that incident. 

Household ammonia is only 6-8% ammonia. The rest is water. Anhydrous Ammonia is nearly 100% ammonia. (Anhydrous means No or Nearly No Water). Besides being used by farmers, all of the food distribution warehouses, ice skating rinks, etc. have been switching back to anhydrous ammonia as a refrigerant because of it's high refrigeration efficiency and low cost, when compared with the Freons, in spite of the increased hazards associated with it. 

My #2 son is the senior refrigeration technician for a major grocery distribution center near me with about 1 million square feet of refrigerated space, and even though he has all of the training and specialized personal protection equipment to use when dealing with the stuff I still worry about him, based on my own experiences with that leak over 40 years ago. It's really nasty stuff, and I have no desire to ever use it for my woodworking, or even have any of it anywhere near my home or shop. 

Please do yourself and your family a huge favor, and find another way to color your wood. Don't even think about ammonia fuming of your projects. Your life and the lives of your family may depend on it. 

Charley


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Charley anhydrous will seek out water. I've heard of releases being drawn to dugouts, sloughs, ponds, even ditches if there was water in them. The people who watched it happen said it was somewhat spooky to watch. It is very dangerous regarding your eyes because that is a rich and easy source of water. Open sores are the same. It begins a chemical reaction when it finds the water which is the source of the burning. The aqueous form is much safer but many people find the smell extremely offensive.


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## TrevortdogR (Feb 11, 2013)

I have respirator cartridges for my mask, swimmer goggles and thick rubber gloves to protect me for this.


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## schnewj (Nov 18, 2013)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> Charley anhydrous will seek out water. I've heard of releases being drawn to dugouts, sloughs, ponds, even ditches if there was water in them. The people who watched it happen said it was somewhat spooky to watch. It is very dangerous regarding your eyes because that is a rich and easy source of water. Open sores are the same. It begins a chemical reaction when it finds the water which is the source of the burning. The aqueous form is much safer but many people find the smell extremely offensive.


The saving grace here is, that, the fumes will generally drive you away before you exceed the Threshold Limit Value (TLV) and cause permanent health issues.

We used to have a blue line printer and had an Ammonia bottle bank in on open Mezzanine hallway. Every once in a while a connection would leak. Just to get the K bottles to shut them off was a pain. We finally got rid of the bank/printers and went to plotters.

As a former safety professional I can not recommend anyone using this material if at all possible. It is dangerous; one misstep and it may be disastrous. You need experience and PPE not normally found at your local neighborhood big box store to safely handle it.


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## TrevortdogR (Feb 11, 2013)

I'm only using 10% ammonia hydroxide from ace hardware.


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## sunnybob (Apr 3, 2015)

Seems like Trevor is doing this regardless.
Good luck Trevor.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

The aqueous solution isn't overly dangerous, just very unpleasant except where your eyes are concerned. Your respirator needs amine cartridges to be effective against the smell. The standard OV cartridges (organic vapor) are only good against various dusts like wood and grain dust.

To handle anhydrous ammonia I have to wear a full face respirator which also protects my eyes, a rain suit, rubber gloves, and leather boots with a leather tongue or rubber boots. That's just to bleed off the connections between the truck I drive and the portable wagons I fill which is pipe about 5 to 6" long by 3/4" in diameter. If something like a blown hose or broken fitting happened I would move away a safe distance and let it go.


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## schnewj (Nov 18, 2013)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> The aqueous solution isn't overly dangerous, just very unpleasant except where your eyes are concerned. Your respirator needs amine cartridges to be effective against the smell. The standard OV cartridges (organic vapor) are only good against various dusts like wood and grain dust.
> 
> To handle anhydrous ammonia I have to wear a full face respirator which also protects my eyes, a rain suit, rubber gloves, and leather boots with a leather tongue or rubber boots. That's just to bleed off the connections between the truck I drive and the portable wagons I fill which is pipe about 5 to 6" long by 3/4" in diameter. If something like a blown hose or broken fitting happened I would move away a safe distance and let it go.


This is the type of equipment that I was talking about. Thanks. 

The respirators that you get at HD, Lowes and other BB stores are really junk. They are intended for particulate and light duty chemical use. In addition, they are supposed to be one use disposables but people don't treat them that way. 

Chemical cartridge respirators are not that expensive, but the cartridges can be. They are chemical specific; Organic Vapor, Ammonia, HEPA, et al. In addition, they are time restrictive. They are only supposed to be used for a maximum amount of time which is measured in hours.

When dealing with Ammonia I would have required, as Chuck stated, a full face respirator or at the very least a 1/2 mask, *chemical goggles* and a face shield if a FF wasn't available. A positive pressure supplied air would be even better but not always practical.

Sorry, but no matter the concentrations, ammonia is dangerous. Using it without adequate ventilation can be disastrous. 10% concentrations are pretty innocuous but can still be dangerous. A bad seal or cartridge on a respirator and you can become sensitized not knowing that you are breathing in harmful amounts and burning your lungs.

I know that no matter what I say, some will ignore the advice, but consider what experienced woodworkers have said here! Some pretty savvy and experienced WW have suggested that you stay away...what does that tell you?


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## schnewj (Nov 18, 2013)

Here is a link to a MSDS for 10% ammonia. Please pay attention to section(s) III and VIII.

http://hillbrothers.com/msds/pdf/Aqua-10.pdf

I see that the IDLH (Immediately Dangerous to Life and Health) level has been LOWERED to 300 ppm. 

Back in the 70's when sending my maintenance personnel into heat treat ovens to reline the asbestos interiors, they were only required to wear a dust mask and coveralls. Today I would be looking at potential jail time for allowing that. 

Point. Requirements change. We now look at long term effects and they are not always pretty.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

schnewj said:


> Here is a link to a MSDS for 10% ammonia. Please pay attention to section(s) III and VIII.
> 
> http://hillbrothers.com/msds/pdf/Aqua-10.pdf
> 
> ...


can't fight stubborn..
he's been advised...
let 'er rip...


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## TrevortdogR (Feb 11, 2013)

The cartridges I have for my respirator/mask for rated for ammonia and I have heavy duty gloves for hands and I will be using swimmer goggles for eyes that form a tight seal around the eyes.
These are 3M 6004 Ammonia/Methylamine cartridges for my mask.


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## aahwhatever2 (Oct 16, 2015)

Trevor,

The point that everyone is making is, no matter WHAT safety gear you use, it is not worth risking your health. There are a hundred different ways that you can finish the wood, but no matter the look, you could be putting you and your family at risk of harm.

That being said.... good luck with whatever finish you decide to use and HOPE to see your future Healthy posts!


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

listen to your fears and doubts Trevor...


'nuff said...
I'm outta here...


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## schnewj (Nov 18, 2013)

TrevortdogR said:


> The cartridges I have for my respirator/mask for rated for ammonia and I have heavy duty gloves for hands and I will be using swimmer goggles for eyes that form a tight seal around the eyes.
> These are 3M 6004 Ammonia/Methylamine cartridges for my mask.


Trevor, this is the correct cartridge. However, *Swimmer goggles* are not adequate. They are not designed to be chemical resistant. I have seen non-chemical resistant equipment melt right into the wearers skin when splashed with an incompatible chemical. IT IS NOT PRETTY!

If you insist on proceeding, then at the very minimum: half mask respirator with Ammonia cartridges, CHEMICAL resistant goggles and a face shield, gloves and a rain suit or an apron with sleeves that are compatible with ammonia, and leather or rubber footware.

It is apparent that you are hell bent to proceed. No matter what those with VOE will say. I can only offer my expertise as a Safety Professional of four decades experience, and offer the CORRECT PPE. 

I'm done offering my advice to you...I wish you luck and I hope that you do not injure yourself in the process.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

schnewj said:


> I'm done offering my advice to you...I wish you luck and I hope that *you do not injure yourself in the process*.


for openers...


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

I have to disagree with everyone else Trevor. Just be careful not to splash it around and you should be fine with a 10% solution. I don't wear much more than that to handle 100% ammonia. The only thing I wear more than that is a plastic suit (basically a rain suit). Although the googles aren't necessarily rated for chemicals, neither ammonia solution nor 100% (anhydrous) are known to affect plastics or rubber or I wouldn't be able to wear them when I go to work. I've been handling anhydrous every spring and fall for 5 out of the last 10 years so I'm pretty confident about what I say. 

Should you get some of the liquid on you, the treatment is to irrigate the contact area for a minimum of 20 minutes with clean fresh water. If it is burning after 20 minutes then keep irrigating but I doubt it would be necessary.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Hope you guys aren't using Windex...
( I've used Ammonia as a degreaser/glass cleaner since since Noah got into the boat business; not changing my ways now. )


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

We're all gonna die! 
Ammonia Smell in Urine | New Health Guide
Is Human Urine Really an Effective Agricultural Fertilizer?


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## schnewj (Nov 18, 2013)

DaninVan said:


> Hope you guys aren't using Windex...
> ( I've used Ammonia as a degreaser/glass cleaner since since Noah got into the boat business; not changing my ways now. )


Good choice on the Windex Original, since it doesn't contain any Ammonia.:surprise:


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## TrevortdogR (Feb 11, 2013)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> I have to disagree with everyone else Trevor. Just be careful not to splash it around and you should be fine with a 10% solution. I don't wear much more than that to handle 100% ammonia. The only thing I wear more than that is a plastic suit (basically a rain suit). Although the googles aren't necessarily rated for chemicals, neither ammonia solution nor 100% (anhydrous) are known to affect plastics or rubber or I wouldn't be able to wear them when I go to work. I've been handling anhydrous every spring and fall for 5 out of the last 10 years so I'm pretty confident about what I say.
> 
> Should you get some of the liquid on you, the treatment is to irrigate the contact area for a minimum of 20 minutes with clean fresh water. If it is burning after 20 minutes then keep irrigating but I doubt it would be necessary.


Thanks!

I'm not concerned about it as I won't be walking around with a large open container. 
I will be pouring it from jug to a container on the floor of my porch and put it under a fumin tent I will make and that will be the extent of handling ammonia other than when I dispose of it.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

schnewj said:


> Good choice on the Windex Original, since it doesn't contain any Ammonia.:surprise:


Yes, it does...
Windex - Frequently Asked Questions


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

We Troglodytes have to 'Stick' together, Trev!


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## schnewj (Nov 18, 2013)

DaninVan said:


> Yes, it does...
> Windex - Frequently Asked Questions


Oh, boy! Here we go...this is going to be fun.

The original formulation of windex, Windex Original, does not contain any ammonia. Reference Section 2

http://www.safety.vanderbilt.edu/msds/products/windexglasscleaner.pdf

Later, commercial, formulations of Windex contained trace amounts of Ammonia "D". This was later extended to retail, non-commercial versions. The "D" in the case of S C Johnson stands for disinfectant. Yes ammonia can be used as a disinfectant. Everyone thinks of alcohol as one, but it is really not that effective. Those alcohol swipes prior to an injection is mainly used to clean the area not disinfect it.

Minute amounts of ammonia were added to the Windex formulation, but it is for the most part a marketing ploy.

Recent MSDS/SDS's do not even list the percentage of chemicals in the formulations. Apparently S C Johnson all of a sudden determined under changing regulations that they had a proprietary formulation of water, alcohol, a surfactant, and, yes, Ammonia.

Around 2010 the way MSDS's were written changed. In the spirit of becoming globally universal they were modeled after the European methods of chemical hazard information. They are no longer referred to as MSDS, but are now SDS's.

Now back to the ammonia in Windex. 

OSHA 29 CFR1910.1200 dictates Hazard Communication criteria. To make a long document condensed, manufactures no longer have to list the percentage of chemical exhibiting hazardous properties if they are present in a non-hazardous amount.

In other words. If the 10% aqua Ammonia that they use is present in a percentage that when diluted does not exhibit properties that exceed the TLV/PEL limits, (in the case of Ammonia 25 ppm), it doesn't have to be listed.

The Ammonia that you may smell in Windex "D" is the result of the vapor pressure characteristic more so then the actual concentrations in the formulations.

So, what do we have? A product that smells industrial, streaks like hell on windows and mirrors, and is overpriced. It is effective, however, for certain cleaning purposes, but a homemade formulation of water, alcohol, and dish washing detergent can be just as effective.

So, carry on with the Windex! If it works for you, then who am I to judge? I hear that it is, also, good for arthritis if you spay it on the affect joint! Is it dangerous? Not unless you drink it or get it in your eyes!>>>


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

OK. Good to know...I prefer using the WIZARD AMMONIA anyway.


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## schnewj (Nov 18, 2013)

DaninVan said:


> OK. Good to know...I prefer using the WIZARD AMMONIA anyway.


LOL! Glad they added Bitrex to make it unpalatable to children! I sure would not want some child with no sense of smell to drink it.>>>


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## TrevortdogR (Feb 11, 2013)

I made my fuming tent and did some test pieces and their were no issues and I never felt it was unsafe at anytime and I could not smell the ammonia with the tent over ammonia. The only thing is with the test pieces is that after about 16 hrs. I noticed not much changed so I wonder if I should have changed out the ammonia after about 8-12 hrs. because it seems like it looses potency/effectiveness.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

What I read in H. H. Windsor's description is that it took days for it to work. You may be right about having to refresh it. If you can't smell it then I suspect it has either neutralized or dissipated. I'm not sure why. When I work with anhydrous we have to bleed our connections into a water barrel and it gets quite strong after a while. One of the workers took the solution home and put it on his lawn and it burned his grass. It was a little too strong. By the way, that is a good way to get rid of the old stuff. Just dilute it in a bucket of water and pour on your lawn or some flowers. A few farmers in the area where I work still use it in aqueous form and the fertilizer version is 20-0-0.


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## TrevortdogR (Feb 11, 2013)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> What I read in H. H. Windsor's description is that it took days for it to work. You may be right about having to refresh it. If you can't smell it then I suspect it has either neutralized or dissipated. I'm not sure why. When I work with anhydrous we have to bleed our connections into a water barrel and it gets quite strong after a while. One of the workers took the solution home and put it on his lawn and it burned his grass. It was a little too strong. By the way, that is a good way to get rid of the old stuff. Just dilute it in a bucket of water and pour on your lawn or some flowers. A few farmers in the area where I work still use it in aqueous form and the fertilizer version is 20-0-0.


Thanks for the tips!


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

If you want stronger N fertilizer, just buy the Urea crystals... it comes as *46*-0-0.


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## schnewj (Nov 18, 2013)

DaninVan said:


> If you want stronger N fertilizer, just buy the Urea crystals... it comes as *46*-0-0.


After Timothy McVeigh used this to blow up a government building it has gotten a little more difficult to get a hold of for the average gardener. If you are not a commercial farmer then most suppliers will play twenty questions with you (if they don't know you) before they will sell it to you in any larger quantity. If they do sell it, it may not be a guarantee that ATF won't come knocking at your door to see what you are using it for. 

It will burn the heck out of your plants, so you have to be careful how you apply it. The only thing that is hotter is horse or chicken waste. I used to let the horse manure cook for at least a year before using it in the garden.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

46-0-0 is not explosive Bill. Its the 34-0-0 that is. For that reason Canadian fertilizer companies quit selling 34-0-0 and only sell 46-0-0. Farmers preferred the 34-0-0 because it is stable. 46-0-0 will gas off some of the nitrogen if there isn't enough moisture in the ground for the nitrogen to attach to.


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## schnewj (Nov 18, 2013)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> 46-0-0 is not explosive Bill. Its the 34-0-0 that is. For that reason Canadian fertilizer companies quit selling 34-0-0 and only sell 46-0-0. Farmers preferred the 34-0-0 because it is stable. 46-0-0 will gas off some of the nitrogen if there isn't enough moisture in the ground for the nitrogen to attach to.


Ya learn something new everyday!


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

schnewj said:


> Ya learn something new everyday!


now don't go out and play...


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

I did not know (all) this...
*Urea is now prepared commercially in vast amounts from liquid ammonia and liquid carbon dioxide. These two materials are combined under high pressures and elevated temperatures to form ammonium carbamate, which then decomposes at much lower pressures to yield urea and water.*

urea | chemical compound | Britannica.com

Some background on the Ammonium Nitrate side of the discussion...
Why fertilizer can be an explosive mixture - Technology & Science - CBC News

I learn something new everyday, here!


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## TrevortdogR (Feb 11, 2013)

Well, I never fumed the white oak. I ended up staining, shellac and a top coat.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

It's all a mater of taste anyway Trevor ans that looks just fine to me.


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## Jack Wilson (Mar 14, 2010)

I have fumed oak, and still have quite a bit of ammonia left, (nearly 5 gallons), I use a mask Tha covers my whole face and filters that are ammonia specific. The fumes burn my eyes, hence the full face mask. Don't take chances, cover up before you start.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

those came out premium Trevor...


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## AndyL (Jun 3, 2011)

TrevortdogR said:


> Well, I never fumed the white oak. I ended up staining, shellac and a top coat.


They came out looking great, so I think you made the right choice not to mess around with fuming. I have a book on arts-and-crafts furniture that strongly advises against ammonia fuming. More trouble than it's worth, they say: you need nasty, industrial strength ammonia, it takes days and the results are inconsistent. The author recommends that modern stains will give perfectly authentic-looking results more reliably with less effort.

That said, I did try it ammonia fuming on a small test piece recently as an experiment. It was a roughly 1" x 1" x 2" offcut and I fumed it in a small tupperware-style box. It darkened way more than I intended in just 2 hours, with regular household (9.5%) ammonia. Not the result I expected! My guess is that it's not the % ammonia in the solution that's important, it's the concentration in the air. So in a small, well-sealed container, it works quickly even with weak ammonia solution. Probably the more concentrated ammonia becomes necessary to fill a fuming tent big enough for a whole piece of furniture. As the chamber size increases, effectively sealing it will become more of a problem too.
I was using European oak (Quercus robur), I don't know if that responds differently to American white oak (Quercus alba).


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