# Router rotation questions??? help



## nokool (Jul 19, 2017)

Hey guys, im building a belt sander for racing and im using 2 Porter-Cable 690lr 1 3/4 hp routers to power it. in my build, i need to make one of my 2 routers rotate clock wise as opposed to the factory counter clockwise. the router has 3 wires going into it, a Green that grounds straight to the case, and a White and Black that goes into the coils.

i wanted to just switch the spring leads on the contacts and see if that worked, but the set screws have lock tight and i cant get them off. i tried switching the White and Black wires, and it still rotates in the same direction... Can any one help me figure out how to make this thing spin the other way?? 

I have a race this Saturday and really want to have it ready to run!!


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## Terry Q (Mar 2, 2017)

Since when did belt sander racing become a thing


In woodworking there is always more then one way to accomplish something.


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## hawkeye10 (Jul 28, 2015)

Has this ever been done before? If so ask your racing buddies how they do it because I don't have a clue.


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## nokool (Jul 19, 2017)

Terry Q said:


> Since when did belt sander racing become a thing
> 
> 
> In woodworking there is always more then one way to accomplish something.


from what I understand its been a ting since the 60's


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## CharleyL (Feb 28, 2009)

Welcome N/a. Please update your Account Settings (upper right below your login) so we will know more about you,

To reverse the rotation of the router, you will need to change the wiring inside the router in order to do this. Nothing at the power cord point will work for doing this. Probably swapping the wiring to the brushes will be the easiest to get to. The polarity of the armature with respect to the field coil needs to be opposite from what it is. Swap either the armaturs (brushes) or the field wiring and it should reverse. 

Don't leave it this way after you finish with your belt sander project or you may ruin some prospective woodworker's day.

Charley


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## nokool (Jul 19, 2017)

hawkeye10 said:


> Has this ever been done before? If so ask your racing buddies how they do it because I don't have a clue.



I would but they all use one router, I'm the only one I know of that will be using 2. So none of them know 😐


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## Terry Q (Mar 2, 2017)

I had to check it out on YouTube. I guess it is a thing. 


In woodworking there is always more then one way to accomplish something.


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## nokool (Jul 19, 2017)

CharleyL said:


> Welcome N/a. Please update your Account Settings (upper right below your login) so we will know more about you,
> 
> To reverse the rotation of the router, you will need to change the wiring inside the router in order to do this. Nothing at the power cord point will work for doing this. Probably swapping the wiring to the brushes will be the easiest to get to. The polarity of the armature with respect to the field coil needs to be opposite from what it is. Swap either the armaturs (brushes) or the field wiring and it should reverse.
> 
> ...


Thinks I wanted to do that first but the set screws that hold the brass case for the brush has lock tight on them and a cant brake them loose. I can try and cut the wires and swap them that way, but there's not much length to the wires. And these routers will never be used for anything else besides powering my racer. Ill post some photos tonight


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Using routers in a belt sander race sounds like the current uproar over Olympic transgender competition...


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

nokool said:


> Thinks I wanted to do that first but the set screws that hold the brass case for the brush has lock tight on them and a cant brake them loose. I can try and cut the wires and swap them that way, but there's not much length to the wires. And these routers will never be used for anything else besides powering my racer. Ill post some photos tonight


You could change direction if you geardrive off the router shaft.
Herb


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

10K plus RPM ...yup, that'll go fast! 
What grit belt do you use?

*It just occurred to me: if you used a couple of Bosch 1617's that'd be over 16 lbs for the routers alone!


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Terry Q said:


> Since when did belt sander racing become a thing


been around a long time...


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## nokool (Jul 19, 2017)

DaninVan said:


> Using routers in a belt sander race sounds like the current uproar over Olympic transgender competition...


Well I'm only doing what others are, besides I'm racing to win! If you not first your last! Lol


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## nokool (Jul 19, 2017)

DaninVan said:


> 10K plus RPM ...yup, that'll go fast!
> What grit belt do you use?
> 
> *It just occurred to me: if you used a couple of Bosch 1617's that'd be over 16 lbs for the routers alone!


Well actually 27,500rpm per router and I'm using 2 at a combined 3.5hp, I'm hoping it'll be fast, and I'm using 24 grit and 2 belts!


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## nokool (Jul 19, 2017)

Oh and I'm using 3" pulleys on the routers and 1½ on my axles so it'll be closer to 100,000rpm


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

!... Holy s**t

My only experience with belt sander racing was accidental, and it was the 'track' that did the racing.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Heh...
Remember the 'good ol' days' before magnetic brakes, when if you weren't careful your circ saw would take off across the deck? Good times, eh!


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## BrianS (Nov 7, 2004)

WoW!!.... make sure you post the video!! Talk about needing a long cord.......

Well, just checked Youtube.... amazing!! I've never heard of this before, looks like fun.


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## nokool (Jul 19, 2017)

BrianS said:


> WoW!!.... make sure you post the video!! Talk about needing a long cord.......
> 
> Well, just checked Youtube.... amazing!! I've never heard of this before, looks like fun.


Ya its pretty big in a few states ran by bar owners here in south Texas


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## vindaloo (May 30, 2009)

DaninVan said:


> Using routers in a belt sander race sounds like the current uproar over Olympic transgender competition...


Nope, just like drag racing, there are different classifications! And they have an association, the BSRA (belt sander racing association).

So we can assume that the OP wants to enter the 'modified' classification. 

All the above said, I still think it's crazy, but I have an old cheapy belt sander....... let me think.... :wink:


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## nokool (Jul 19, 2017)

vindaloo said:


> Nope, just like drag racing, there are different classifications! And they have an association, the BSRA (belt sander racing association).
> 
> So we can assume that the OP wants to enter the 'modified' classification.
> 
> ...


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## ggom (Apr 5, 2017)

Hello!

when you will have this router turning opposite , you will have the collet nut self-opening option.
so it would hold nothing.

I'd really like to understand maybee see a drawing of your design..
For At first it seems to me that both routers could run the same direction...

Regards
Gérard


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## CharleyL (Feb 28, 2009)

If you can't swap the brush connections, maybe you can swap the field coil connections. 
(why am I helping with this, it's crazy stupid)

I was worried about the belt and gear drives surviving 27,000 rpm. I'm seriously concerned if you try to run the belt faster than that. Put a wood or steel box over it before powering it for the first, and probably last test run, for your safety, because I'm certain that parts are going to fly very fast, and far if not contained.

I think you would do better and it would be safer if you kept the speed lower and added some weight to create more traction. Even a standard belt sander has trouble accelerating at it's normal speed because of slipping. If your belt sander doesn't hurt you or a bystander at 100,000 rpm speed it's going to be a miracle. 

Do you want to apply for the Darwin Award now, or have a friend file it for you later?

Charley


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Are 'Airmiles' involved in some way?


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

You could stack the router motors offset, and let them turn the same direction. or maybe figure "8" your belt to change direction
Herb.


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## CharleyL (Feb 28, 2009)

The belt won't last a tenth of a second in a figure 8 at 100, 000 rpm. 

Charley


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## Bushwhacker (Jun 16, 2009)

Will the slope of the brushes be an issue?
David


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## Bushwhacker (Jun 16, 2009)

I can't believe I got involved in this.
David


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## nokool (Jul 19, 2017)

CharleyL said:


> If you can't swap the brush connections, maybe you can swap the field coil connections.
> (why am I helping with this, it's crazy stupid)
> 
> I was worried about the belt and gear drives surviving 27,000 rpm. I'm seriously concerned if you try to run the belt faster than that. Put a wood or steel box over it before powering it for the first, and probably last test run, for your safety, because I'm certain that parts are going to fly very fast, and far if not contained.
> ...





ggom said:


> Hello!
> 
> when you will have this router turning opposite , you will have the collet nut self-opening option.
> so it would hold nothing.
> ...





Herb Stoops said:


> You could stack the router motors offset, and let them turn the same direction. or maybe figure "8" your belt to change direction
> Herb.


Well I'm using 2 belts side by side and a single drive axle with a pulley at each end. If I has both routers on one side, not only would it be too heavy on that side but it would be too wide for the track 
























And I can't get the brass armatures to come out. I got the set screws out but they wont bufge and there's not much wire to cut and splice


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## gmercer_48083 (Jul 18, 2012)

nokool, Look at this websiteUniversal Motors - Learn about motors that can operate on both single phase AC and DC supply


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## nokool (Jul 19, 2017)

Oh and the nut on the reverse router has been tack welded to prevent it from un threading


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## mark greenbaum (Sep 26, 2010)

If the routers can be run in tandem, one CW and one CCW, if one lags just a little you'll be going in circles, not straight.


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## nokool (Jul 19, 2017)

mark greenbaum said:


> If the routers can be run in tandem, one CW and one CCW, if one lags just a little you'll be going in circles, not straight.


It doesn't matter if one lags just a little, both motors are on the same axle, the belts would just slip. And the track uses rails to keep them straight. And my sander will have rolllers to bounce it back


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Many years ago someone built a dragster that had 4 Oldsmobile engines, all of which were souped up. It didn't go very much faster than it would have with just one engine. It depends on how much a role torque plays in. Two routers will produce more torque but rpm will be the same and if rpm is the more important factor then the extra router won't make much difference.


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

I can envision the whole thing flipping over on it's back on startup if it doesn't have softstart on the routers. A 3.5hp router with a 3' dia. bit with normal on-off switching will jerk right out of your hands, and 2 of them starting at once, if it doesn't blow the breaker, who knows what they will do. Best warn everyone spectating to get way back. Winning a race at the expense of hurting someone is not wise.

Herb

I miss read the previous posts, you will have a combined 3.5hp. 
Maybe you could mount both routers facing the same direction on top of the sanding belt and instead of a single belt pulley on the belt drive use a double groove pulley.

The whole thing sounds crazy , and totally unengineered.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Good point, Herb! _That'd probably pop a 20A breaker let alone a 15A..._


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## ggom (Apr 5, 2017)

I don't like this project but anyway:

- reversing an universal motor is easy by swapping 2 wires,
but the reversed one will never work properly...
Less speed is for sure , the angle between brushes and stator 
is set for straight direction and will be wrong in reverse direction..

Heard you about pulley slippage but that will not help...
Its only a way to loose energy.
Adding a second motor adds weight and a badly working motor
is adding no power but dead weight.

Regards.
Gérard


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## nokool (Jul 19, 2017)

Well update. I got the other one turning the other way, idk if there's a loss of rpm, but i ran them side by side and they sound the same. Ive got my frame 90% done and I'm starting on my deck to mount the routers today. This is just a rough idea for yall how its going to be set up


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## gmercer_48083 (Jul 18, 2012)

How do you keep the rollers inside the belt from slipping?


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## nokool (Jul 19, 2017)

gmercer_48083 said:


> How do you keep the rollers inside the belt from slipping?


On the drive shaft I used 4 high strength cotter pins through the rollers and the shaft


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Nokool; I might be wrong, but I think Gary may have been referring to the roller to sanding belt contact (ie the back of the sanding belt slipping on the faces of the rollers)?


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)




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## nokool (Jul 19, 2017)

DaninVan said:


> Nokool; I might be wrong, but I think Gary may have been referring to the roller to sanding belt contact (ie the back of the sanding belt slipping on the faces of the rollers)?


Oh I just using the factory rollers from my donor sanders. I roughed up the rubber a little with sand paper though, the other racers who use routers do the same thing


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

Does this fall under the category of BELT SANDER ABUSE?

Next thing will be cordless drill helicopters.
The only thing related to wood working is the tracks, some nice work went into building them.
Herb


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## gmercer_48083 (Jul 18, 2012)

Back in the 60s, slot car racing was popular. We use to use zippo lighter fluid (naptha) to soften the tires which made them stick to the track for more traction.


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## 197761 (May 2, 2017)

I thought I entered the twilight zone for a few there. This is a real trip! Learn something new every day, as they say! Looks fun.

I just went to search these races and saw Tim the Toolman's sidekick Al, MC'ing one of the competitions in Las Vegas. That was funny, too.

Good luck on winning this next competition! I hope you provide us a video to see your race.


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## nokool (Jul 19, 2017)

Sorry I haven't gotten back guys been busy with work and changed my design. I'm putting my final touches onit, looks fast real fast


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