# Dovetails . . . why still so popular?



## dawziecat (Dec 8, 2009)

Well I have to ask.

Why are people still so gung-ho on dovetails.
You need a router . . . and a jig to boot.

Seeing as how the router is necessary in the first place, why not forego the jig and just use a lock miter joint, or a drawer lock bit rather than dovetails? Seems it would be easier and at least as strong. Likely stronger, no?

Is it just a matter of tradition?


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## jlord (Nov 16, 2009)

Aesthetics, & tradition are part of it. I think people associate dovetails with quality & fine furniture.


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## Gene Howe (Jul 10, 2007)

And, don't really need a router or a jig.


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## jmg1017 (Apr 9, 2009)

dawziecat said:


> why not forego the jig and just use a lock miter joint, or a drawer lock bit rather than dovetails? Seems it would be easier and at least as strong. Likely stronger, no?


No. Strength on any joint that uses glue comes from long grain to long grain contact. Lock miter joints use end grain. Dovetails use NO end grain. The dovetail is also a mechanical joint. Assemble a dovetail drawer without glue and the pieces stay together with repeated closings. Try that with a lock miter joint.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

To me ,,people are lazy , most just want to get it done and the dovetail is one of the easy ones to do with the machne, it's stronger than most joints and it looks like you did a lot of work to get it in place but you didn't, I think it's a human thing. "look at what I did" show off thing for most..  if you didn't want to show off you would just glue it and put some nails in it and be done with it..

============


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

jlord said:


> Aesthetics, & tradition are part of it. I think people associate dovetails with quality & fine furniture.


+1 on this! Absolutely dead on if for no other reasons aside from the aforementioned post relating to strength. 

As for needing a jig, naaaaaaaa you can do em yourself. A skill well worth learning. The big issue IMHO is one of time. Doing DT's by hand takes a considerable amount of time no matter who ya are as opposed to using a jig.


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## jlord (Nov 16, 2009)

I do mostly half-blind dovetails for kitchen & bathroom vanity drawers. If you are doing it on a profit level use a router & jig for efficiency. The average person cannot tell & does not care how you made them. They just want that wow factor when they open a drawer. 

Only another woodworker can appreciate & understand the amount of effort in doing dovetails by hand.


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

jlord said:


> . The average person cannot tell & does not care how you made them. They just want that wow factor when they open a drawer.
> 
> Only another woodworker can appreciate & understand the amount of effort in doing dovetails by hand.


boy, isn't that the truth of it!!!


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

It makes recall the one and only time I when to a wood class and they said "we are going to make dovetail joints today ",, I said, great and I ask the guy next to me where are the routers and the dovetails jigs, I thought he was going to drop his load right on the spot , he must have turn 3 shades of red b/4 he said, your gone,,,I'm going to tell the teacher,,,poor old fart ,,,, hahahahahahaha LOL..


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## dawziecat (Dec 8, 2009)

Well, I certainly don't want to come across as some anti-dovetail zealot. I can appreciate the ascetics and tradition and that they are strong joints.

But I have a houseful of furniture to make and mastering the fine art of doing DT joints by hand is not in the cards. I am debating trying my hand at doing them with a router . . . but my lock miter and drawer lock bits are "in the mail."

I hadn't considered the point that these methods use end grain only though. Good point. Guess I was mesmerized by the total glueing area involved and forgot the end grain aspect.


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## timbertailor (Oct 4, 2009)

There is one other aspect of dovetail use that I did not see mentioned here specifically. And that is the contrast afforded by using dovetails with assorted woods. With today's tools, you can create designs that were only dreamt of a decade ago. Good joinery, no matter what you know about woodwork, just screams quality. Dovetails are one good example.


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## rwyoung (Aug 3, 2008)

I'll dump a few more thoughts onto the pile...

1) Mechanical locking joint. This has been pointed out before. All long grain style wedged joints only get stronger with the application of glue. Wedged through tenons, fox tenons, "sliding" dovetails, through, half-blind and full-blind dovetails. I'm forgetting some of the names but there are also a lot of oriental locking joints. And there is always the old line about finding dovetailed joints in the tombs of the Egyptian Pharaohs.

2) Aesthetic, or "the look". Exposed joinery for the sake of exposed joinery comes and goes as a fashion. A good example of exposed joinery NOT being in favor can be found in 17th and 18th century European casework. Often times the carcass dovetails were hidden by molding or cut as mitered or hidden dovetails. The mechanical locking action was more desired, visible end grain not so much. Drawers would frequently have the half-blind on the front but the back could be through dovetails, sliding dovetails or dadoed (possibly pinned).

3) Machine cut versus hand-cut. We had a thread a while back about this. Here again is my take on it. If you are in a time-is-money situation, go with a jig. Cutting a kitchen full of half-blinds for drawers by hand is not fun. However if you want the uber-skinny English tails or houndstooth or mitered dovetails, hand cutting skills are your friend. A router and jig cannot make the space between pins any narrower than the narrowest part of the dovetail bit. Cutting angled baslines for full mitered dovetails is beyond the work holding ability of most small shop fixtures. I think some of the big pneumatic machines can handle the work holding. A 3 or 4 axis CNC might be able to deal with the situation too.

4) Other joints besides dovetails are perfectly suitable for carcass and drawer construction. The locking miter is pretty strong but does rely on "modern" glues. However a rabbeted front with some nice contrasting wood dowels (heck, stainless steel or brass pins even) can look striking. And the industrial revolution brought us more kinds of machine cut interlocking joints such as Knapp joints, a predecessor to "Isolock" and other template based methods.

Personally, I think the hype over how "hard" dovetails are to hand cut is over rated. Cutting a PERFECT joint is hard but is just a mater of patience and sharp tools. That applies to hand cut and machine cut. Cutting a carcass quality joint that is going to be covered by molding or holds the back of something together, quick and easy. It is harder to cut any joint in small, easily handled objects. They are so easy to inspect that hiding that 0.001" over cut can be a challenge. 

Just going through the exercise and learning the hand skills even if you don't use them daily is a good exercise in improving hand-eye coordination (that doesn't require an XBox360 1st person shooter game), a good exercise in design and a very good exercise in stock prep and marking. All of those skills (except maybe the Xbox) translate well between hand and power tools.

One final thought, I think the hand cut dovetail is a gateway skill, much like learning to sharpen is a gateway skill. Once you have the tool control and concepts down, cutting other joinery and just hand work in general poses little problem.


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## Packard (Jan 23, 2010)

I put 7 pull out drawers in my kitchen pantry and all of them had dovetail joints. I'm the only one that noticed or cared. For me that was all that mattered. 

Dovetails are stronger and more lasting that the kitchen cabinets will ever be. It is sort of like putting a formula I racing engine in a Yugo.


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## Stefang (Feb 10, 2010)

Dovetails are traditionally a mark of craftsmanship because the are not easy to cut by hand and therefore require skill and practice to make. That is the primary reason why routers took over for the hand cut dovetails. I agree with you that there are plenty of other joints just as good today, especially when used with the modern glues that are available today. Seeing it in this light a dovetail today is perhaps more ornamental than just functional. Personally I like the look of handcut dovetails. I am able to achieve this look by cutting them on my scrollsaw. With a router you have to have the openings at the smallest ends wide enough to accomodate the the bit shaft which at a minimum is 1/4". I like an opening about 1/8" or less.


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## Stefang (Feb 10, 2010)

*Actually a lock miter bit doesn't use end grain.* The cuts while across the end grain actually expose long grain in the joint which then becomes the glued surfaces So you might say that it is a long grain joint. The lock miter joint is very strong, but of course on the condition that it is glued. In fact that's exactly what the joint is all about. More glue surface. I just mention that the LM bit is often used on long grain edges too, to make table legs and other similar type constructions.

Mike


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## Router Rog (Jan 28, 2010)

Before we had today's strong glues, dovetail joints provided strength like no other jointery. So if not for its strength, why do we still use dovetail joints? Well IMHO its done for the looks. To me box joints or finger joints with contrasting woods offer that look of quality and with the modern glues available a very strong joint. Box joints take far less time to make but still has a craftsman like look to it.


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## Stefang (Feb 10, 2010)

I have to agree with RouterRog. I think box joints are just as strong as dovetails and look just as good. My reason for this is that through dovetail joints only look good (to me) on the side you see the tails. The other side with the rectangular end grain aren't as attractive. Blind dovetails don't suffer from this problem, but probably don't look so good on a box. It might be over the top, but a compromise design wise could be a lock miter joint for easy glue-up clamping with dovetail or finger splines just for looks. Just a thought.

Mike


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## laxknut (Oct 17, 2008)

Great post from rwyoung. I make DTs because I enjoy doing it, good reliable tooling makes it a pleasure be it a jig or a simple Japanese saw.


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## Mike Wingate (Apr 26, 2009)

Tradition, strength and aesthetics.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Guys

I must disagree , dovetail joints are stronger than box joints, they make so many machines now days to put in dovetails joints easy and quick, the dovetails bit will do a much nicer job than a saw and 10 times faster.
I don't care to much for the blind dovetails joints but a standard dovetail joints is the best of all joints IMOP, they are almost self locking unlike the box joint..

You can get a dovetail machine for 40.oo bucks to 400.oo bucks now days so to say why buy a hand saw and a chisel or two..when a jig will do it easy.

here's just one of many on the market now days.
The EZ Pro Dovetail Jig Instructional Videos

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## laxknut (Oct 17, 2008)

bobj3 said:


> Hi Guys
> 
> I must disagree , dovetail joints are stronger than box joints, they make so many machines now days to put in dovetails joints easy and quick, the dovetails bit will do a much nicer job than a saw and 10 times faster.
> I don't care to much for the blind dovetails joints but a standard dovetail joints is the best of all joints IMOP, they are almost self locking unlike the box joint..
> ...




When I'm doing work for myself, especially smaller projects, the hand cut DTs are fun and relaxing- as opposed to the little jet motor screaming away and clogging up my lungs.
I wish I had more time for said projects.


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## Stefang (Feb 10, 2010)

I can get just as good a dovetail cut with my scroll saw as with a router, and I can make them any style I want. In addition they can be cut without the router bit shaft dictating the size of the openings between the tales from the shoulder or the leading edge. I also like to cut them by hand, but if I'm in a hurry it takes too long. The router done dovetails are fine too for those that prefer that method. Personally I think the best way to do dovetails is the way you prefer.


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## GoonMan (Mar 22, 2005)

Hand cut and routered Dove Tails is one of the joints I have not learned but want too. It is still on my to do list, that I have avoided for way too long. When I look at a piece of furniture that has drawers in it the dovetail is the first joint I look for.

I have used the Lock Miter bit and I found it a tough bit to set up.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Mike

The scroll saw is a good way But most dovetail jigs can be set to anysize dovetail pattern ,quick and easy..  i.e like two sets to a 8" wide board if needed ..or the look of the big dovetail joint..
Like with the Katie dovetail jig

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Stefang said:


> I can get just as good a dovetail cut with my scroll saw as with a router, and I can make them any style I want. In addition they can be cut without the router bit shaft dictating the size of the openings between the tales from the shoulder or the leading edge. I also like to cut them by hand, but if I'm in a hurry it takes too long. The router done dovetails are fine too for those that prefer that method. Personally I think the best way to do dovetails is the way you prefer.


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## swigema (Feb 14, 2010)

Dovetails are more for a decorative look for show. I use a pocket hole jig at times to put drawers together, which is just as strong. When you are making furniture or cabinets, you want to use the quickest method rather than be time consuming making dovetails.


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## jlord (Nov 16, 2009)

swigema said:


> Dovetails are more for a decorative look for show. I use a pocket hole jig at times to put drawers together, which is just as strong. When you are making furniture or cabinets, you want to use the quickest method rather than be time consuming making dovetails.


In my experience in making cabinets for clients they do not want to see pocket screws in the drawers, especially furniture grade cabinets. The comments they have made is it reminds them of low budget & something they would see in the garage or shed. I usually end up making half-blind dovetails for cabinets & bathroom vanities. 

I have a Porter Cable dovetail jig, & dedicated router setup for these & once setup you do not have to adjust even for different thickness of stock. Machining the joints for drawers goes very quick. I do usually mill down to 5/8" for drawer boxes. Drawers held together with pocket screws are more suited to shop cabinets. 

I do use pockets screws for the faceframe & case, but not in the drawers. I would use a drawer lock bit before pocket screws.


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## Stefang (Feb 10, 2010)

Hi BJ. Depending on the jig, different configurations can be done. But, you can't get away from that minimum 1/4" opening to accommodate the bit shank, unless there's something out there I don't know about, which of course is entirely possible. I grant you that the router is the quickest way to do Dovetails, but only when the number of them warrant the effort of jig set-up time and test cuts. But they are not best for me because I prefer a hand-cut look and I'm willing to take the extra time to achieve that look. I do realize that many folks aren't of the same opinion.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi 

"But, you can't get away from that minimum 1/4" opening to accommodate the bit shank"
??????,,, it's best to use 1/2" shank bits
You can use any bit size for the box joints or dovetail joints from 1/8" to 1"..
It's best to use the brass guide or with the bearing on the bit ,in the router table plate.
You would be amazed how well they come and how fast it can be with the router..no guess work ,it's always right on the button every time.

see video on the same web page
Pins and tails dovetail jigs
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Stefang said:


> Hi BJ. Depending on the jig, different configurations can be done. But, you can't get away from that minimum 1/4" opening to accommodate the bit shank, unless there's something out there I don't know about, which of course is entirely possible. I grant you that the router is the quickest way to do Dovetails, but only when the number of them warrant the effort of jig set-up time and test cuts. But they are not best for me because I prefer a hand-cut look and I'm willing to take the extra time to achieve that look. I do realize that many folks aren't of the same opinion.


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## Julie (Sep 11, 2004)

I use box joints on my drawers. I have used both the router table and the table saw to make them.

The funny thing is, more than once, I have had people say to me "Oh, you have nice dovetails there" and they aren't dovetails at all... they are box joints.

I have some pine bedroom furniture I bought many years ago and the drawers are all dovetailed. They are very, very poorly done with gaps and tearouts. (Of course at the time I bought it I had no idea what to look for) So, really a well done joint of any kind can look great and much better than a poorly done dovetail.

~Julie~


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## timbertailor (Oct 4, 2009)

Julie said:


> I use box joints on my drawers. I have used both the router table and the table saw to make them.
> 
> The funny thing is, more than once, I have had people say to me "Oh, you have nice dovetails there" and they aren't dovetails at all... they are box joints.
> 
> ...


Amen sister!


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## Mike Wingate (Apr 26, 2009)

There is a bloke in the U.K. who jigs up his bandsaw to cut dovetails, and very nice they are too. He sells a set of DVDs, bandsaw setup, use and jigs.


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## Mike Wingate (Apr 26, 2009)

Found him on YouTube selling his wares.
YouTube - The Compleat Bandsaw - The complete guide to getting the very best out of your bandsaw.


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

David Marks did a show on bandsawing dovetails... quite impressive. Made it look easy. But then again, that guy made everything look easy...


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## Stefang (Feb 10, 2010)

Hi BJ

What I am saying is that the opening between the tails on the end of the board have to be at least 1/4" to accommodate the smallest shank. 1/2" shanks require an even larger opening. An opening of 1/4" or more and the resulting width of the tails at the shoulder line are a telltale sign of router produced dovetails. To me this takes away from the idea of a hand done appearance. However, I have owned a Bosch dovetailing jig the last 13 years and I do use it when I've got a lot of joints to do and I'm more concerned about a quality joint than just it's appearance. I'm not demeaning router cut dovetails, but when I do a project to showcase my woodworking skills I either do it by hand or if I'm in a hurry I cheat by using my scroll saw. The difference in appearance between router and hand cut DTs are just my personal preference, but the distinction between the two are important to me. I would just mention here that the hand-cut appearance can also be produced on a tablesaw, though I have never tried it. It always amazes me that dovetails are such an icon to woodworkers, including myself. Are we brainwashed? Lol.


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## istracpsboss (Sep 14, 2008)

Mike Wingate said:


> There is a bloke in the U.K. who jigs up his bandsaw to cut dovetails, and very nice they are too. He sells a set of DVDs, bandsaw setup, use and jigs.


Hmm, Bandsaw jigs ! I feel a new set of jigs coming on !

Cheers

Peter


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## bestmcm1211 (Mar 27, 2012)

i like it soo much


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## KenBee (Jan 1, 2011)

bobj3 said:


> Hi Guys
> 
> I must disagree , dovetail joints are stronger than box joints, they make so many machines now days to put in dovetails joints easy and quick, the dovetails bit will do a much nicer job than a saw and 10 times faster.
> I don't care to much for the blind dovetails joints but a standard dovetail joints is the best of all joints IMOP, they are almost self locking unlike the box joint..
> ...


Hi Bob...It is not often that I would disagree with you, but this is the one time I have to based on the You Tube test link I posted. Even without the test I would probably disagree due to the fact box joints provide more surface area than dovetails if cut in identical length boards and/or boards of the same wood species. The surface area of dovetails by their very nature are less than box joints considering the dovetail is an angled joint having less meat at the base of the joint than the box joint thereby rendering it weaker for all intents and purposes.

Dovetail joint vs box joint strength test - YouTube


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Ken

I like all his videos he his very sharp guy but on this one he came off the mark a little bit for me, not so much of a test of the joint it's more of a test of the wood stock for me, I wish he use something like Oak for the test,many of them came out fine but the wood failed b/4 the joints let go...I will still say the dovetails would be a little stronger than a box joint just because of the strait sides of the box joints are made. almost a slip joint you could say or to say a slip out joint unlike the dovetail joint that has a lock in device built into the joint that will use the long fibers of the wood..i.e. Oak,Maple,etc.

For me the wedge way is always better to lock the joints and is stronger,they have been using the wedge for a very long time and the dovetail is just a off shoot of it, take a look at just about any hammer you have and the head is in place with a wedge not a box joint, you could say. 
==



Ken Bee said:


> Hi Bob...It is not often that I would disagree with you, but this is the one time I have to based on the You Tube test link I posted. Even without the test I would probably disagree due to the fact box joints provide more surface area than dovetails if cut in identical length boards and/or boards of the same wood species. The surface area of dovetails by their very nature are less than box joints considering the dovetail is an angled joint having less meat at the base of the joint than the box joint thereby rendering it weaker for all intents and purposes.
> 
> Dovetail joint vs box joint strength test - YouTube


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## KenBee (Jan 1, 2011)

bobj3 said:


> Hi Ken
> 
> I like all his videos he his very sharp guy but on this one he came off the mark a little bit for me, not so much of a test of the joint it's more of a test of the wood stock for me, I wish he use something like Oak for the test,many of them came out fine but the wood failed b/4 the joints let go...I will still say the dovetails would be a little stronger than a box joint just because of the strait sides of the box joints are made. almost a slip joint you could say or to say a slip out joint unlike the dovetail joint that has a lock in device built into the joint that will use the long fibers of the wood..i.e. Oak,Maple,etc.
> 
> ...


Hi Bob...I agree with you on the kind of wood he used for the test and was going to mention it, but forgot it in my original post. It looks to me like Poplar which even though considered a hardwood is far from hard in my opinion. Hell I can use my thumbnail to mark poplar. 

After thinking about it you could say the tests in the video were more of a test of glue strength rather than joint strength because the joints didn't break, the wood broke at the joint base.


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## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

The biggest point to me is that dovetails can fail from VERY SHORT with the grain cracks. Also box joints have many more "fingers" to glue. To me, one is as easy to make as the other, and both are stronger than 99 percent of my applications need them to be! With modern glues the wood is more likely to fail than the joint in either case.. even with oak!

Lock miter to me are to finicky to make.


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## jlord (Nov 16, 2009)

dawziecat said:


> Well, I certainly don't want to come across as some anti-dovetail zealot. I can appreciate the ascetics and tradition and that they are strong joints.
> 
> But I have a houseful of furniture to make and mastering the fine art of doing DT joints by hand is not in the cards. I am debating trying my hand at doing them with a router . . . but my lock miter and drawer lock bits are "in the mail."
> 
> I hadn't considered the point that these methods use end grain only though. Good point. Guess I was mesmerized by the total glueing area involved and forgot the end grain aspect.


How about Half-Blind dovetail joints for your drawers? You still get the dovetails on your drawer boxes. The drawer front can be the front piece of your drawer box to match the wood species of your piece as for flush mount drawers, or you can use an applied front. Quick to do with router & jig once your setup. Same setting can be used for a wide range of thickness material without changing setup. The Porter Cable jig for instance can machine Half-Blind Dovetails in 1/2" to 1-1/8" material with same setup.


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## Neil Tsubota (Mar 20, 2010)

*Yeah, I'm Lazy...but,*

Ok, I'm lazy and my wife knows it, but

If I want to keep things simple in my life, why do I need:

1) Faster Computers
2) More Internet Speed
3) LED Flat screen TV
4) LED lights

Do you remember a show called:

STOP the World, I want to get off !

Some of those "hippies" are now receiving Social Security Income .




bobj3 said:


> To me ,,people are lazy , most just want to get it done and the dovetail is one of the easy ones to do with the machne, it's stronger than most joints and it looks like you did a lot of work to get it in place but you didn't, I think it's a human thing. "look at what I did" show off thing for most..  if you didn't want to show off you would just glue it and put some nails in it and be done with it..
> 
> ============


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