# Ideas? RAS Fence



## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

When we moved 5 years ago, it was into a bank repo. It was shreded. I ended up reframing one whole side of the house, restructuring the inside rooms, complete kitchen, etc. I'm almost through with the last phase, the kitchen. This was all while living in the house... and trying to make a living.

Space was tight. My RAS (Power-Kraft TPC 2610C) was banished outside by the girlfriend. Even though it was covered by plastic and tarps, there was water damage. (Western Washington) The lift was frozen, bearings in the motor were frozen, the table looked like a slalom course.

I told the girlfriend I had to get it working to finish the kitchen like "she" wants it.

I had to take the lift mechanism to a machine shop/done. The bearings came in today and I'm getting them into the motor (between other projects). I have to make a lift handle. (Lost in move) Now I'm starting to think about and make plans for the fence.

I know how it was and some of the things I don't want to do this time... This RAS does radial saw, router, shaper, grinding/polishing, disk/drum sanding, drilling. I have the attachments for everything except the router attachment, but am having one machined to fit my needs... <-- All that is running rampant in my head for what I might want to include in a table this time -- Instead of just a basic table with a basic pony-fence. 

Any thoughts, ideas or pictures to give me ideas? I'm running around trying to get ready for family that's staying here this weekend -- with a pad and pencil in my pocket so I can write down ideas about this...


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## OPG3 (Jan 9, 2011)

Mike, this may seem silly, but have you looked around to see what RAS fences are available on the market that you could emulate to meet your requirements? Are there possibly some types that you could visit / measure / adapt? I will say this, though - since I know you are construction savvy...If you're going to make something really long with a plywood veneer - you may want to go with steel studs. They usually stay really straight, where long 2x's tend to deflect over time. Good luck,


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## GulfcoastGuy (Feb 27, 2012)

Yeah, How 'bout something like this from Kreg.










This one is for a miter saw but I'm sure a little ingenuity could be brought to bear to adapt it for your RAS.

GCG


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

OPG3 said:


> Mike, this may seem silly, but have you looked around to see what RAS fences are available on the market that you could emulate to meet your requirements? Are there possibly some types that you could visit / measure / adapt? I will say this, though - since I know you are construction savvy...If you're going to make something really long with a plywood veneer - you may want to go with steel studs. They usually stay really straight, where long 2x's tend to deflect over time. Good luck,


Sort of. Since moving here, I'm away from all the construction/woodworking friends I had there.

My old boss had one, but he moved to Eastern Washington.

Here, where I have my horses, he has 3 radial arm saws. In fact, one has a broken carriage and he's thinking on giving me that one. (Craftsman 2.5hp, no stand) He has just 1" particle board 24"x24" with an 18" fence of 3/4"x3/4". Pretty crude, but he uses it to trim what he cuts on his mill.

Only other 3 I've seen around here were at the Home Depot's here. Not one around here has any for sale.

My old table was 20"x24". Feeds on each side where 10 foot, 22 feet overall (One side of the old garage). I had a 4 inch fence the whole length. I used to clamp things to the fence(work, stops). There was enought of a lip on the main table to clamp work.

Yes Otis. I have lots of plywood 1/4 thru 3/4, 2's in x4, x6 & x8. Bar stock, Flat stock, Angle Iron, Round tubing, Square tubing... etc. I have limited funds (not been able to work in 3 years) but I have raw materials and a lot of imagination.

Although my old feed tables came in handy for straightening/joining boards (saw at 90, set to offside of fence and slide the stock down the fence...) I don't think I need that long a table anymore. And I am still a bit tight on space. In fact, you know how a dinner table slides longer to put in leaves? My RAS table height is at 3 feet. If I hinge it and build with a sliding joint like a dining room table, with fold down legs... With one table on each side of the RAS, I believe it would come out to about 14 feet altogether. ...And about 2 to 2 1/2 feet wide folded up. That would give me that room back to do other stuff.

The table would probably be 3/4 inch. I tend to overbuild things. I was thinking rectangular tubing on the feed table frame... but since it would only be 6 foot each side (in 3'+ sections) I think it wood would be good, especially with marine plywood for the tops. Strong and slick. 

I can route t-slots with the materials I have now. If I routed a slot into the side or on top of the fence, I could put jigs and slots that I clamped before.

If I route a few t-slots into the main table, I could hold work from that, But I'm not sure where just yet.

I was also thinking that I want to dado 90 degrees for a sacrificial strip. That's where most of the wear is. It needs to be wide enough to drop a drum sanding drum into... (edge sanding) In the past I did this with jigs, raising the work. 

That's the notes I have so far.


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

GulfcoastGuy said:


> Yeah, How 'bout something like this from Kreg.
> 
> This one is for a miter saw but I'm sure a little ingenuity could be brought to bear to adapt it for your RAS.
> 
> GCG


I guess I "could" look at miter fences and accessories. It is the same kind of table/fence and a bit more modern. (My RAS was made 44 years ago/1968...)


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

You might want to check these guys for your handle. Adjustable Handles They have lots of styles. It sounds to me like you might need a few different fences rather that try to make a do-all.

On another note, if after 5 years you think you still have a "girlfriend" you are deluding yourself. She is at the very least a "significant other". You appear to also have fallen victim to the "honey-do" list. Once the honey-do list is initiated it never ends. As you finish one item, two more take its place. Sometimes there is sincere gratitude for finishing an item on the honey-do list, possibly even sex, but that accomplishment tends to fade from memory in about two days and the focus turns back to the next items on the list. 
I am glad to see you have started to learn how to leverage the honey-do list to get tools. I.e. "Hon, if you want me to do that I'm going to need this new tool". This can be a little difficult to get by them at first as they are sceptical by nature where men are concerned, but as time goes on and they see you use the those new tools to finish some of the honey-do list it gets easier. I hope this helps. As Steve Smith from the Red Green Show says, "We're all in this together".


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

There's a clamp-on router table for Miter Saw kickstands? (HTC PM7010 Quick-Mount Router Table) Still looking through links (about 20 so far).


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> On another note, if after 5 years you think you still have a "girlfriend" you are deluding yourself. She is at the very least a "significant other". You appear to also have fallen victim to the "honey-do" list. Once the honey-do list is initiated it never ends. As you finish one item, two more take its place. Sometimes there is sincere gratitude for finishing an item on the honey-do list, possibly even sex, but that accomplishment tends to fade from memory in about two days and the focus turns back to the next items on the list.
> I am glad to see you have started to learn how to leverage the honey-do list to get tools. I.e. "Hon, if you want me to do that I'm going to need this new tool". This can be a little difficult to get by them at first as they are sceptical by nature where men are concerned, but as time goes on and they see you use the those new tools to finish some of the honey-do list it gets easier. I hope this helps. As Steve Smith from the Red Green Show says, "We're all in this together".


Spot on... We've been together for 7 years. I've been married 3 times. Her twice. It's more than boyfriend/girlfriend, but she's happy and in no hurry to get married. We introduce each other as fiance or partner. The honey do list is always there. The tools, yes. 

Bad thing was that right before we met, I was subcontracting as a Master Carpenter and was asked to leave my tools in the garage there over a holiday... which go broke into and lost everything that was there. Been rebuilding that ever since.

well, I'm going through designs and plans for miters saw tables. But I did find this:


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## skiroy56 (Aug 7, 2011)

I have several of R.J.'s books he wrote on the RAS. You might want to research them as he has a lot of great ideas and techniques for the RAS.
Laurence


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## Knothead47 (Feb 10, 2010)

I made a fence for my Delta chop saw. I used a 1X2 and fastened it to the base with a couple of drywall screws- holes were already in the base. I made a stop with two pieces of 1X2, two 10-24 screws and wing nuts. Move the stop and tighten the wing nuts. Same principle as GulfcoastGuy.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

*Wise Words!*



Cherryville Chuck said:


> You might want to check these guys for your handle. Adjustable Handles They have lots of styles. It sounds to me like you might need a few different fences rather that try to make a do-all.
> 
> On another note, if after 5 years you think you still have a "girlfriend" you are deluding yourself. She is at the very least a "significant other". You appear to also have fallen victim to the "honey-do" list. Once the honey-do list is initiated it never ends. As you finish one item, two more take its place. Sometimes there is sincere gratitude for finishing an item on the honey-do list, possibly even sex, but that accomplishment tends to fade from memory in about two days and the focus turns back to the next items on the list.
> I am glad to see you have started to learn how to leverage the honey-do list to get tools. I.e. "Hon, if you want me to do that I'm going to need this new tool". This can be a little difficult to get by them at first as they are sceptical by nature where men are concerned, but as time goes on and they see you use the those new tools to finish some of the honey-do list it gets easier. I hope this helps. As Steve Smith from the Red Green Show says, "We're all in this together".



Lol...I was just going to suggest putting the _GF_ outside, rather than the radial arm...


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> You might want to check these guys for your handle.


FYI- Montgomery Wards Power-Craft TPC2610C. MG went out of business over 20 years ago, but Tool=Kraft still sells repair parts for it. If I wanted to pay for an original... But I don't care about that. 

I figured I could do just as well of better. Here's a quick sketch (attached) of that part of it. If I wanted it "prettier", once it's done, I could spray-arc transfer more mass to it and add some contours.

Been how to do some portable feed and outfeed tables, sliding or just quick attach (and hang on a wall), detachable main table for different purposes or an all-in-one with tslots...

The pro's on a folding sliding extension table is that it is very portable and out of the way. The con's is trying to figure out how to make a usable fence on it. I haven't thought of a permanently attached fence work on it. The reason I said it that way, Is that I could build a detachable fence with the tslots I want, a tape that starts from the main fence's scale... and make saddles in the table w/ toggle clamps to attach it and keep reference to square. The is I need "continuous" I could make some leaves.

The other style I am toying with a solid table that locks into a joint at the main table with folding legs at the end. This way the fence is always there. I've have to hang this up on a wall when not being used.

Legth. Ruled usually is outfeed half-length of feed. Still figuring out what I realistically need, rather than what I want. I guess I could always use some of my adjustable roller stands with a rocker... then I wouldn't need too long. I am pressed for space around it, but I don't want to cut myself short either.

I'm figuring ways to make the main table and fence solid, yet easily adjustable (zero and square) and replaceable. I've figured out the sacrificial strip... but the whole thing is really. I did figure out an easy evelation stop to save too much wear on the table.

One challenge for me- On 3-part sliding table extension joints, no matter if the joints are tslot or dovetail, you have 2 pins to prevent the joint from coming apart. It's been too long. I've forgotton where those pins go!!! Anyone?


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Back together mechanically. (Attached Photo's) 

Now I'm stuck. More research...


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## Chris Curl (Feb 13, 2012)

maybe something along these lines ...

THE ULTIMATE MITERSTAND - YouTube


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

I thought about it and here's what I came up with for the main table and fence (attached).

I've started on the main table rear so I can get it on the frame and see if I need to alter the depth.

The extensions- I'm thinking a detachable extension table on the left and the folding table for the right.

If I do it that way I can put a fixed fence on the right extension, the same height as the main tables base fence base (see sketch 3 in attachments). On the right extension, I'd then have time figure out a fence, but I'm playing with ideas of a detachable fence on that side. 

Since I tend to make things modular, adjustable and changeable... plenty of room to play with that.


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## Chris Curl (Feb 13, 2012)

it looks like you used some of the ideas from that miter stand video from ron paulk i posted. good deal.

he also designed an awesome workbench; i used some of his ideas when i was making mine.


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Chris Curl said:


> it looks like you used some of the ideas from that miter stand video from ron paulk i posted. good deal.
> 
> he also designed an awesome workbench; i used some of his ideas when i was making mine.


Yes = Holes in table for hold downs and the stop block.

Table itself... The original had a channel to slide/adjust. Then I looked at the Mr. Sawdust. 

On the mounting, I modified. Mr. Sawdust lifts the table about 2-3 inches above sets of unistrut... didn't like that. The original was limited and the leveling of it was 4 setscrews that never did do a good job. And this one is missing all those parts except the channels.

Then the adjustable fence proper is based on a router table's fence. I figure if I made the fence adjustable, then it opens up to do a straight edge cut, shaping and edge routing...


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Mike ( MAFoElffen )

Hope this helps a little bit
It's 20 3/4" X 32" the back side is 8" x 32" I use a 3/4" x 2" most of the time for the fence, I cut them up all the time and must be replace all the time..

Please? Measurements off yours.

"Could you please do me a favor the next time you go out to your shop? What is the measurements on your main RAS Table-->
- Width left to right of main table.
- From left edge to blade
- From fence to outboard edge.
- Inboard rip length on your RAS"

for MAFoElffen

==


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

bobj3 said:


> Hope this helps a little bit
> It's 20 3/4" X 32" the back side is 8" x 32" I use a 3/4" x 2" most of the time for the fence, I cut them up all the time and must be replace all the time..
> *


Bob,

Thank you very much. 

First, your pictures showed me were I "should" have taken my measurements. Unlike most RAS tables, your table is centered on your saw blade instead of being centered on the post. Now that I see that, going off the saw blade really makes more sense as a point of reference. Most factory tables are centered on the frame and post (like mine was when it was new) and that's where I screwed up and am off.

Second is the your dewalt has a shorter power unit and yoke than mine... With that, yours goes back 3" further than mine at the center of the blade. So mine needs a 3-4 inch deeper rear table.

Third. Mine seems to have a longer incut reach by about 2-3 inches. My frame under it all is 18" wide by 29 1/4" deep (front to rear). Looking at Dewalts, they are about the same from front to rear, but allot wider than mine.

So if I center on my blade, and compromise on mitered cuts to only 45 degrees, that puts the table width at 36". If I go to 60 degrees, that puts the table width at 48 inches. 

(Thinking out loud)
Either way, I am going to have to build a frame extension. 12" to 17" teetered off the frame is a long ways to be unsupported. The right side is not too bad at 7"... But while I've got the plasma arc and MIG out and setup, it's not that much more work to do a second one. One while I'm at it, I might as well plan on a support the center. That would be 4-5 points of support in 4 feet.

I also notice that the machine stand I have it on... When I swing the arm to 45 degrees, it gets a bit tippy. I guess if I just bolted a support at the foot of the legs, that could steady it enough.


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Bob, 

I do have one last question of you. You said...

Quote:
"_I use a 3/4" x 2" most of the time for the fence, I cut them up all the time and must be replace all the time.._"

How is your fence mounted?


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi

It's just a drop in place fence, it's hard to see in the pictures but it's just two thumb screws that lock the back block in place that holds the fence in place at, the same time,1/4 turn will do all the work

===



MAFoElffen said:


> Bob,
> 
> I do have one last question of you. You said...
> 
> ...


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

bobj3 said:


> Hi
> 
> It's just a drop in place fence, it's hard to see in the pictures but it's just two thumb screws that lock the back block in place that holds the fence in place at, the same time,1/4 turn will do all the work
> 
> ===


Thanks. That gives me ideas. Redesigning everything...


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

First pic is for Otis...

Other pic's 
- Frame extensions. Left is 12". Right is 5 inch. That puts the blade (when at 0 degrees) at the center. It also:
- Arm swung left to 45 degrees. Center of arbor at edge of frame extension.
- Arm swung right to 45 degrees. Center of arbor at edge of frame extension.

That makes the frame 35 inches wide. My table is going to be 40-41" wide. I figure I could use 3 table supports. I could probably get away with 2, but I think that would really be pushing it. I know I said I was thinking 5 before, but I came to the conclusion that I already running a 1 3/8 inch thick table. I am not standing a steel gerter or beams on end atop it. Each support I add is also just one more piece to adjust.

Now thinking about a new table design...


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

During the pictures it was sprinkling. Then pouring and been ever since.

Here's what I came up with (attached).

Thinking that way. the front table could be fixed and the fence could go in 3 different places.

If I take the first cut at 0 degrees, then take the fence out and finish the cut... Then if I support it from underneath, then it would be adjustable (side-to-side).

One thing I'm still thinking on/playing with. I'm thinking if I make it all tongue and groove, then it wouldn't tend to lift and would provide a channel to adjust the fence.

If I didn't go tongue and groove, then I'd have to provide support from underneath. The only parts that would really raise (I think), would be the rear pieces... But that might tend to push the top of the fence forward.

Not sure of any of this. Just thoughts in my head and trying to think out all the possibilities.

Any thoughts?


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

small drawing

===


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

bobj3 said:


> small drawing
> 
> ===


Bob-

Here's what I've put together from way too many hours going through different manufacturer's RAS manuals and parts diagrams (attached).

EDIT-- If you look at in original size you could read it...


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

I mentioned to Otis that I was going to use construction adhesive to glue those pieces together for my table? Figuring that marine plywood wasn't porous and wouldn't do well with wood glue. 

I cut out all the pieces and glued them. Used all my clamps. That was 3 days ago. Checked them 2 days. Added some weight to help with a slight bend in one. Yesterday they looked great but wanted to give them another day to cure/dry.

Took the clamps off this morning. By the time I got all the clamps off all the pieces, the first piece had separated. The glue had never dried or kicked. It's just as soft and pliable as when I put it on 3 days ago!!! The other pieces were the same. I have a case of it // wondering if it froze in my garage last winter or something else. No matter.

I pulled all of them apart and am trying to clean them up to try with another glue. *Very Frustrating.*

EDIT-- More adventure. As soon as I got half way through scraping the first piece, it was dried. Chipping it off wasn't cutting it. Ended up having to heat with a torch and scrape. Will reglue tomorrow.


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Last 2 days I've spent more more time on this. Cut up and welded a lot of steel yesterday for the mounts and for the table fixture.

I ended up making the support mount to level and support the table. I had to come up with support braces for the left side table extension... was too wobbly hanging that far off the frame. If those don't cut it, I'll bolt on a piece of bar stock across the front.

I ended up doing the table in 4 pieces. 1 main, 2 in rear of different sizes and the fence. The fixture that holds it all together is similar to what Bob has on his. Loosen 2 thumb screws and it comes apart or adjusts. I can put the fence in 3 different positions. 

I added 2 tabs to each so that now and cut the fence all the way through (into 2 pieces. Loosening those thumb screws, I can now adjust the width of the opening (like a router fence). So the support for the fence pieces is the fence fixtures and the tabs.

Gosh, the table is 1 7/8" thick (2 x 3/4 + a 3/8" sacrifice). The table has some weight to it. I was concerned that with the twisted pieces of used/weathered plywood I glued together that I might have to plane them, but thankfully all the pieces turned out true.

I got it all together now. Leveling the table was painless. 

I can't turn the saw on to adjust it. It's late here and the neighbor sleep's with her window open... And her bedroom is right next to the garage. Oh well. Tomorrow then.

Will post some "finished" photo's tomorrow. The other adventure tomorrow will be to get it into the garage and give it a proper home. I can already feel the last 2 days in my back...

First project with it? That corner cabinet face - I built it as 30 - 60 (90). That was the whole reason I tld the girlfriend I needed to get the RAS going before I could finish this cabinet / her kitchen. 

After that I'm using it for the raise panel door. I have 4 left. Cove at 3/4 radius > 15 degree drop > 1/4 radius > straight >> front. I don't have that particular raised panel bit, but can now to with what I have.


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## Chris Curl (Feb 13, 2012)

MAFoElffen said:


> ...
> Took the clamps off this morning. By the time I got all the clamps off all the pieces, the first piece had separated. The glue had never dried or kicked. It's just as soft and pliable as when I put it on 3 days ago!!! The other pieces were the same. I have a case of it // wondering if it froze in my garage last winter or something else. No matter.
> ..


i recently had a similar problem with construction adhesive. i was wondering why it did that ... so freezing temps render it un-usable?


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Chris Curl said:


> i recently had a similar problem with construction adhesive. i was wondering why it did that ... so freezing temps render it un-usable?


You know- I never "thought" I needed to read the instructions and notes on construction adhesive. I always assumed that with a 20 minute work time, that it cured quickly. Boy was I wrong.

I went to their site:
- 20 minute work time. Support for 12 hours. *Takes 7 days to cure.*
- Doesn't have any storage notes about freezing. Just the opposite. They say if it's stored too hot...


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

*RAS Table Finished.*

Re-leveled table and adjusted the saw.

Made whole lots of sawdust.

Pic's attached. Picture 1 you can see all the parts of the table. If you look at picture 4 you can see the fence adjusted out. Picture 5 is the fence in the middle possible.


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## CharleyL (Feb 28, 2009)

I've always used a one piece fence and just let the saw blade cut slots in it. Moving your fence apart and away from the blade is very unsafe IMO. I would never use a RAS unless the fence clearance was very close to the sides of the blade.

Charley


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

CharleyL said:


> I've always used a one piece fence and just let the saw blade cut slots in it. Moving your fence apart and away from the blade is very unsafe IMO. I would never use a RAS unless the fence clearance was very close to the sides of the blade.
> 
> Charley


Very true... And it will be used at zero clearance. The photo showed that it was adjustable.

I also use dado's, shapers and do edge cuts. Each has different opening at the fence. Just like a router fence, I can now adjust to that zero clearance, at the point that the appliance goes through the fence, without having to replace the fence. 

As with most fixed fences, a few angles and the fence gets chewed up in several places down the fence. With this, adjust for it. If it does get chewed - Trim a little, adjust to zero... back in business.


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