# Shop Fire (How should I rebuild?)



## YaBoyRob (Jan 13, 2013)

I hope this is the correct forum for this. I am new to posting here but have been lurking for a while. I recently had a fire that destroyed my small cinder block shop/shed. I lost EVERYTHING in it. The good thing is that I have insurance so I was thinking that maybe one of those prefab or shed kits, like the Morgan buildings, would be a good thing to look into. My cinder block structure was only 12x15, so I was thinking of maybe going into something 20x20 or something of that size? I am in the New Orleans area.

Does anyone know of a good resource or brand to look at that is around $5-6k for that option? I want to have enough room for a table saw, router table, workbench, scroll-saw, and maybe a drill press and was thinking about a planer..The DC system I will probably put outside under a water heater shed type structure. once again sorry if this is in the wrong place, but I didn't see any other are to put it in. 

I look forward to any opinions offered, as the knowledge here seems amazing from all that I have ever read here. 

Rob


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## greenacres2 (Dec 23, 2011)

We lost a 21' x 22' garage in 1996. With the insurance check for the building i could have had someone build the same size. Instead, i built 24' x 36', new concrete, 100 amp sub panel, 10' walls--and had a few thousand left over. I don't recall the actual numbers any more, but that doesn't matter anyway. The point is that if you can do your own building you may do quite well. 

Last summer i thought about adding a shed, and did some pricing. Kits tend to come with 2" x 3" studs and OSB walls--if you spend $20 to $50 on a set of plans you can buy stud grade lumber for equal money, i'm thinking it was less. 

As you consider what to do--does the $5000-$6000 budget include new electrical? Do you need a new concrete slab or could you use pressure treated plywood? What kind of permitting do you need to get? Any restrictions on doing your own work (i don't live in a subdivision or city--as long as i'm under 145 square feet on a project we're good. I'm told that the 145 square feet is on ONE project, but i could do more than ONE. I like it here!!)

good luck!!


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## OPG3 (Jan 9, 2011)

Rob, Welcome to the Router Forums! You mentioned in your thread starter that your building was "cinder block". That term is something rarely expressed, but rather CMU (concrete masonry unit) or simply concrete block. For fire safety, concrete block is FAR safer than anything you could build from wood. Now, if a fire gets super-hot and the fire department hits HOT block with COLD water - you will very likely suffer structural problems - even total wall failure, but a properly constructed footing, CMU wall and good tight roof are hard-to-beat. 

Often in years past, the term "cinder block" was used to describe lightweight concrete block. Even though they are still quite heavy, lightweight CMU are made using aggregates that most often have been heat-expanded (much like popcorn does).

If you still have the footings or a structural slab that the previous building was supported by - you should be able to re-use that and rebuild!

Good luck, and also it is good to plan a new building to have exterior corners of 90 deg. and make your wall lengths in multiples of 4'-0". Your building at 12' x 15' was not the most cost-efficient dimensions overall. The dimensions of 21' x 22' are not cost-effective, either as much as would be: 12' x 16', 16' x 16', 20' x 20', 20' x 24' or 24' x 24'. Choosing to build something in 4 foot multiples simply determines how much of your purchased materials become scrap. The more effective your efficiency with materials means more money goes where it is needed most.

Good luck, Otis Guillebeau from Auburn, Georgia


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## YaBoyRob (Jan 13, 2013)

I have 2k for electrical, besides the 6k. and also $1300 for what the roof would have cost. Probably about 5k for contents as well. This is from the electrical contractor:

1)220 volt 6 circuit breaker panel. Existing conduit to be reused. Feeder cable to be 30 amps 220 volts. 
2)4- Duplex GFI protected receptacles inside garage and two 20 amp circuits for same. 
3)2- four foot 2 lamp fluorescent fixtures and lamps for same and one single pole switch to control these fixtures. 
4)1-outdoor PAR security fixture with two heads and two PAR flood bulbs for same. Install one single pole switch to control same. 

His quote was $1985.79 for that work. I am not sure if this is a good deal or not? I hope this is enough to fill my needs. Wanted 220 as an option for my table saw. Hope this is the right decision. No permits or anything like that needed, I'm in the suburbs. 

I have a 15x15 concrete slab now, but had a sub floor (plywood) in the structure due to flooding (New Orleans is in the swamp!) I was thinking about finding some good plans earlier, but did not know where to start.


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## YaBoyRob (Jan 13, 2013)

Thanks for the replies guys! 

Regarding the cinder blocks, I bought this house post Katrina, and the structure has been here since 1975, it is VERY solid, that's my only reservation. It is just to small for my needs. 

With the fire, it was contained pretty quickly, it just got so hot most of my tools melted, not burned. These are very heavy cement blocks so I guess it must have been like a pizza oven. There is also a small crack that runs about 12 inches down close to the only window in the structure. It is VERY thin, but I can see daylight through it.

The Fire investigator said it started under my router table which was set up on my workbench.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Rob; on the electrical...the number of breaker spaces available is _extremely _important! Nothing less than a *12cct, and preferably 16 cct panel*. Stick to your guns on that. Every receptacle should be a split receptacle, that is, the top and bottom are on separate ccts. That'll gobble up two spaces per receptacle (you can combine the top of one with the top of a different one across the room...same for bottoms...that'll mean you get two or three per cct. _Don't combine your lighting with anything else. _You severely limit what you can actually plug in and use if the demand on that cct. is already partly dedicated to the lighting. Think of every plug point as being used to the full 15 amps. Personally, I wire with #12 and use 20 amp breakers. That saves a lot of annoying breaker pops when the load on the cct. is very high. You'll need at least two or three double pole breakers for 220v machines...that's 4 to 6 spaces right there.
-Table saw
-compressor
-Radial Arm saw, Band saw, any other m/cs that require serious torque

_Absolute minimum_ of 40 amp /220v subfeed to the panel...60 preferred...100 would be nice, but really for a home shop you'll never need that kind of capacity. Unless of course you put in a kiln or a big welder(?). How many machines can you operate at a time?


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## greenacres2 (Dec 23, 2011)

I've got 4 circuits for 120 volt outlets--2 with 3 drops each, 1 with 2 ceiling outlets for lights (2 fluorescent fixtures), and one to plug in overhead openers. Since only one door has an opener, the other outlet powers the dust collector. Recently, i added a 240 volt circuit with 3 drops (i can only operate one tool at a time)--love it for my TS, BS and RAS. I also have 2 circuits for indoor lights and one for exterior lights. My 100 amp 16 cct box is full.

To Otis--i figured 24' x 36' cost very little more than 24' x 24'. Biggest additional expense was the extra 12' of roof and concrete--back wall was cheap, the front was an additional overhead door. Looking at it now--since we did 10' sidewalls with the 9' and 16' doors across the width, i could extend the front by 4' or 8' (making 28' or 32' x 36'), move the overheads to the new exterior wall--park the cars farther back. Pretty cheap except for the new headers and concrete, though that could be left in gravel.

I put a service door at each narrow end, and i built the 4 window openings (2 on back wall and one on each end) framed for 32" doors--then added cripples to carry the windows. If i decide to expand on the side instead of the front--i'll have a ready-made opening. Of course, money to do any of that is tight!!

earl


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## YaBoyRob (Jan 13, 2013)

Thanks for the reply. 

So what you are saying is the quote I received will not be sufficient? I am not the best when it comes to electrical nomenclature. 

I am by no means a professional. I am recently disabled (got injured at work), and a full time student now. Woodworking has been a hobby that has helped me not think about my pain, and it has been very relaxing to me. I only plan on having one 220V machine at this time.

Thanks again for the quick responses and advice!


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## OPG3 (Jan 9, 2011)

Usually, and only a "rule of thumb" is that you can look at rectangular shapes in 4'-0" multiples and determine the square footage required (or even better is to map-out your machinery positions and desired work flow). Here's an example: a 40x40 building is 1,600 square feet and has 160 linear feet of exterior walls, yet a 20x80 building is also 1,600 square feet, yet it has 200 linear feet of exterior walls. That long shape yields more exterior walls - which in many types of construction equates to more building costs. However, good estimating requires a good plan and in some cases; a non-square rectangular shape is your best choice. 

In a project such as this, you will need to determine where materials go-in and where your finished products go out... Example: some projects start with big raw materials and produce small finished assemblies - let's say you're using sheet goods (4x8) and producing dog houses for chihuahuas, then it is easier to move the small dog houses across the workspace than to trek through a maze with full sheets of plywood. The exact opposite can also be the case... Let's say you are building dining room tables, then you would bring-in dimensional lumber - yet outbound may be a large table! Many people build small shops very efficiently and have easy ingress and egress for raw goods and finished products. I know of a couple of small to medium sized shops that have garage doors at each opposite end. Also, make certain all equipment can easily fit. 

Personally, at almost 60, now - I find tools and carts on wheels make a lot of the moving of machines, raw goods and finished products be a much easier task. I do have help (most much stronger than me), but we have found the *wheel *to be a great invention. Note: some floors are more conducive to rolling heavy carts and tools than others. Rough floors are best avoided, but still can be useable with pneumatic tires. Smooth floors work great with solid tires. Clean floors are also imperative with either type of tire. On big machines such as table saws, there needs to be a method to get the machine to a stable non-rolling state prior to using said machine.

I am no electrician - FAR FROM IT, but you should work hard to avoid the use of extension cords. I even have some electrical outlets overhead for a few of the machines that move-around. This is often the best way to keep cord tangles and trip hazards to a minimum. All of my guys are given bonuses to suggest and/or implement safety and convenience ideas - so as you can imagine, we run a very clean shop.

Dependant on how you work in your shop, you may need to acquire new shelving. Shelving can be store-bought or made to suit your needs. I have quite a few shelving units - because we have a simple understanding, "A place for everything and everything in its place". If someone misplaces a tool, it slows-down everyone and decreases out output, which in turn reduces income. What I have been using over the past 7 or 8 years is shelves that do not reach the floor! My favorite shelving units are made from vertical plywood hangers (attached to end of span floor joists) which, in turn support horizontal ledgers that support (select) Southern Yellow Pine stair treads. Everything is supported by square-drive screws. We like the nice rounded nosing that this material has and it is considerably stiffer than 1x12's. Having used SD screws means these units can be taken-down in a matter of minutes!

This manner of shelving is so cool for many reasons! It takes no floor space and can stop at any height - which means under it can be kept clean and available for small item storage - such as waste cans and many types of recycling. A couple of weeks ago, a client was visiting me and his grandkids wanted to see the reptile collection. These shelves were something he liked so much that he asked if I will do a basement full of hanging shelves at his new home. We have agreed to a deal and will be starting in Mid April. It is a huge house and the basement is also going to be quite a nice project. We bust our butts to keep our customers happy with us and projects like this do pop-up every so often. It will be a nice change of pace!

I hope this helps!
Otis Guillebeau from Auburn, Georgia


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

I'm a little over the hill when it comes to heavy construction, so I am looking to hire a relative who has done construction for years, but is now short of work to put up a garage. He has done other framing work for me in the past. Bid for having a 20x24 free standing inside unfinished garage built is about $23,000, build it yourself finished space is closer to $8 K with serious insulation, only a bit more for 2x6 walls. Here in the Mojave, we get bitter cold winters, 110 degree typical summer heat, so insulation and cooling are musts. Having a helper do the rough work and roof (this guy did my roof perfectly a few years ago) would cost about $2 K more, but save my back. I have an electrician neighbor who can make sure I meet code on inside wiring to pass inspection, but the sub panel will set me back another $1600 or so. Just some numbers and another option since you are probably not going to want to do the framing and roof yourself. In my present shop, I have three 115v 20 amp circuits, one includes lights (CFL) and the cooler/heater. The second drives dust collection, the third any machine I want to use. I would like a 220 circuit, but don't really need one. This all runs from a 60 amp sub panel installed by a licensed electrician a couple of years ago. Hope this is helpful.


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## YaBoyRob (Jan 13, 2013)

Very nice guys!!! Appreciate all the good advice! Keep them coming if possible, the electrical is something I am going to have to research more, but with mid terms this week I've been studying like crazy! Thanks again.


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## Willway (Aug 16, 2012)

Hi Rob and welcome, As for the electrical I would go at least try to go with 60 amp, the contractor may still be able to use the same conduit. I would go as large as you can on the building. I would look for a local builder for metal buildings, check Graig's List then check the references. Don't try to go with a brand name building like Morton, a local builder will have access to the metal at a much lower cost and may be able to give you a total cost for everything. I used to do a lot of electrical and construction work after moving to Texas and that price seems a little high. You may be able to find a local electrician that can do it for much less. Almost any journeyman can do the work and you should be able to ask around and get references.


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## greenacres2 (Dec 23, 2011)

In '96 i paid $1,000 to get my building done with 100 amp, so the number quoted may not be that bad. The outlets for the fluorescents i ran last summer at a cost of about $35. The 240 volt with 3 drops (outlets) cost me right at $100 plus we made lunch for the electrician and his wife. It took some shopping...From e-bay (including shipping) $36 for 100' of 12-2, $20 for outlets, $16 for 10 male and 3 female plugs (Ace wanted $5 or $6 each--and i've got spares), $7 for the breaker. From Ace--boxes, covers, staples, colored tape, and such about $20. I looked at videos, asked questions, studied diagrams, more video, more questions for a few weeks until i got comfortable enough to install the boxes and pull the lines. One of my wife's guitar players is an electrician--so he came out on a Saturday, gave his blessing to what i'd done and "supervised" while i cut the power to the sub-panel, added the breaker and connected up. 

If you can study a bit, find an electrician who will let you pull your own wires (labor time--good savings) and have it ready for them to connect up--you might get a bit more bang for the buck without sacrificing the expertise where it's truly important. 
earl


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## N'awlins77 (Feb 25, 2011)

Hiya Rob! I'm just over the river from ya, over here on the BEST Bank!! ;o) 

Anyway, sorry about your fire! But after Katrina destroyed my wood shop and tossed my metal garden shed into my neighbors yard, I took the 4000 bucks my insurance company gave me (Besides sheds, I had minor damage to my house) and built myself (first time with anything this major) my own shed/shop. It is 10x16 and like I said, it cost me 4 grand. But it's all treated wood subfloor, Treated T1-11 (5/8ths thick), insulated walls and ceilings (hell yea, we live in south Louisiana!) and a shingled roof. The inside is finished with 1/4" paneling (walls and ceilings). And outlet on each wall. 4 - 4' double fluorescents (yea, it's bright in there!!). So just to give you an idea, no labor charge involved. My son did my shingled roof, my Dad lent a hand when I framed the roof, my wife and daughter helped me stand up the walls after I nailed them together, and other then those three things, I did it all with my two hands. No experience, just Google and some books from the home centers. The inspector that came out, was amazed that this was my first project, as he passed my inspection. So materials, for a 10x16, in and out, 4 grand, back what, 7 years ago.


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## Red Stick (Sep 7, 2011)

Rob:

I am in Baton Rouge, a woodworker, with a fair knowledge of electrical systems and metal buildings. If you want to, you can call me at 225-715-8369. Maybe I can share some experience.


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## YaBoyRob (Jan 13, 2013)

cool guys, great info!! Glad to see some locals here too!!! 

I may take you up on that Red Stick!!! 

Very nice job on your shop Nawlins! I am right across the river from ya in Da Parish! I'm sure nobody else has a clue what that means. I lived in Lakeview before the storm, close to the levee break, so I lost everything as well. Still trying to recover actually.


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## TRN_Diesel (Feb 24, 2009)

Rob when I converted my two car garage into a shop I did a lot of reading like you are doing. I found it best to break things down in sections (i.e. electrical, lighting, insulation, interior finish) When you come cross an idea you like write it down! 

Online you can find shop layout tools to place your equipment. I used this to figure out the spacing for the tools and if they would fit in my shop. Having your old shop you have a good idea of how you work and what flow you need. The nice thing is now you get to start over again and do it the way you want to. 

Lighting
The things I like about my shop are the lighting. I used T8 fluorescent bulbs and followed the guidelines in a Fine Woodworking article. 
Motion lights are good outside to keep your shop well lit and let you know if someone is snooping around outside. 

Power Outlets
I like the use of overhead power outlets to minimize the trip hazard and if your using a router the cord will not wrap around the piece your routing.
Consider placing power outlets in the floor for tools that will remain stationary like your table saw.
Split Receptacles are a must and consider using 20 amp for circuits requiring the draw dependent on the tools used. Spacing is important you can never have to many outlets. I placed them every 2 feet. In some areas I put in double boxes.

Flooring.
Go with a wood floor where you use hand tools. If you drop a chisel or plane they won't get damaged like they would if they fell onto a concrete floor. 
Standing on concrete is hard on your back and joints compared a wood floor.

Heating
In floor is nice and reduces dust blown around in the shop. 
My next shop will have a wood stove in it to burn the scrap wood I generate. This will also reduce my heating costs.

Windows

Place high up on wall to free up walls space for storage. The more natural light the better. 
Go with double pane and if you can afford it triple pane. On south walls use Low E window glazing to block UV light rays.

Air Lines

Run air lines to work assembly areas to be used for nailers.


Mechanical Room
If possible have a separate room for the air compressor and dust collection. 
This will reduce noise in the shop area when these machines start up.
Locate the electrical panel here as well.

Dust Collection (DC)
Install blast gates for each machine and invest in a remote start system for the DC
Use tin over plastic so you can ground the pipe and avoid static charge. 
Design a DC system based on your current requirements and any additions you may want to add in the future.

Construction Options

Solid core doors with steel frames for added security.
Dead bolt locks
2x6 studs for greater insulation value.
Tin roof with eaves trough to collect rain water.
Spray booth with explosion proof electrical. 

Fire Safety

Extinguishers
Smoke detectors
Sprinkler system

Phone line
(2) Cat 5 cable - one for alarm security and the other for internet
Coxial cable
Possible roof antenna mount for OTA if you want TV in your shop. Conduit from roof to shop with string to pull cable through.


These are just a few ideas I have. Good luck with your build and take your time and plan plan plan and then do some more planning. You will not regret the time spent when you begin the build. Have a look at my thread when I did my rebuild it may help.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

You forgot the beer fridge, Dan!


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

DaninVan said:


> You forgot the beer fridge, Dan!


He can just leave that outside in the shade.....LOL


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## Web Shepherd (Feb 8, 2012)

> Every receptacle should be a split receptacle, that is, the top and bottom are on separate ccts. That'll gobble up two spaces per receptacle (you can combine the top of one with the top of a different one across the room...same for bottoms...that'll mean you get two or three per cct.


Dan, I was interested in your recommendations to Rob because I am wanting to build a work shop from scratch. Can you elaborate on the benefits of splitting up the receptacles (top and bottom)? What tools or work stations would be involved? Be specific because I am not an electrician. 

Rob, sorry about your shop fire. Looks like you are on the right track for getting things back in shape.


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## Willway (Aug 16, 2012)

Web Shepherd said:


> Dan, I was interested in your recommendations to Rob because I am wanting to build a work shop from scratch. Can you elaborate on the benefits of splitting up the receptacles (top and bottom)? What tools or work stations would be involved? Be specific because I am not an electrician.
> 
> Rob, sorry about your shop fire. Looks like you are on the right track for getting things back in shape.


Hi Bob, I think I can explain the split receptacle question for you. I worked over 50 years in electrical/electronic fields. It is a great idea to do this especially if you are going to be running 2 large tools off 1 receptacle, like a router and a large shop vac. A 20 amp circuit will not handle most of these combinations. This doesn't have to be a dedicated circuits to just one outlet, you can have several outlets on these 2 circuits. With a split receptacle you actually have two 20 amp circuits available.


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## Web Shepherd (Feb 8, 2012)

Dick ~ Thanks. Now that is really a neat idea. Thanks for explaining the concept. Now I understand why so many woodworkers are frustrated with existing outlets in their garages.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Rob; what Dick said. 
Up here, it's been a Code requirement for kitchens for as far back as I can remember, When I was contracting I simplified things by requiring duplex breakers, 14/3/1 Loomex, and only one split duplex receptacle per cct. There was never any chance of plugging in two countertop appliances into the same circuit, no matter where you were in the kitchen.
The other item is splitting the receptacle; on the side of the plug with the BRASS screws (!) there's a small piece of brass joining the upper plug with the lower plug. Break it off with a pair of needlenose pliers...carefully. Leave the SILVER side alone.
Your black wire goes to one of the brass screws (or push-in ports) and the red wire goes to the other brass screw/port ...the white wire goes to the SILVER side screw/port. The bare copper wire of course goes to the green ground screw. 
If you're going to use an additional receptacle on the same duplex breaker, you would have brought the two reds together (in the junction box) with a short 'pigtail' and connected them with a wire nut...the short wire running to the plug as above. Same for black, white and bare.
-Dan


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## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

DaninVan said:


> Rob; what Dick said.
> Up here, it's been a Code requirement for kitchens for as far back as I can remember, When I was contracting I simplified things by requiring duplex breakers, 14/3/1 Loomex, and only one split duplex receptacle per cct. There was never any chance of plugging in two countertop appliances into the same circuit, no matter where you were in the kitchen.
> The other item is splitting the receptacle; on the side of the plug with the BRASS screws (!) there's a small piece of brass joining the upper plug with the lower plug. Break it off with a pair of needlenose pliers...carefully. Leave the SILVER side alone.
> Your black wire goes to one of the brass screws (or push-in ports) and the red wire goes to the other brass screw/port ...the white wire goes to the SILVER side screw/port. The bare copper wire of course goes to the green ground screw.
> ...


Uhhh, don't know what your code says, but if you are drawing 15A on one recept and 15A on the other.... with a common 14GA neutral(white) wire, You are drawing 30A on the neutral, NO? Sounds like a fire hazard to me! That would require a 10GA neutral!!!  I won't even discuss what happens if you are on concrete floor where ground fault recepts are required!

PS Also won't talk about the possibility of there being 240V within a single duplex receptacle if adjacent 120V breakers are used! Yuuuuck! Better be really sure what you are doing on that one.

My suggestion would be pull the second neutral(split the neutral side of the duplex recepts as well!) and make sure both circuits within a run of duplex outlets are on the same side of the 240V! Then each individual circuit can be on its own GFCI! Also I would run 12GA, not 14GA.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Duane; I'm not a an Electrical Engineer. Somebody else will have to explain why it's not an issue. If you have 15 A breakers, the only really good reason for using 12Ga over !4Ga is to reduce voltage drop. As i said in my original post, I use #12 and 20A breakers on my 15A ccts to prevent breakers popping with motors requiring the full 15A under extreme loads...especially my compressor when its being used to its full capacity.
As for the neutral issue, keep in mind that all the components are rated with a big safety margin designed in. Another issue is making certain that the two hot legs are fed from different phases on the panel. The final issue is using handle-tied breakers, which ensures that both sides of the plug are 'off' when the breaker is flipped off.
Multiwire Branch Electrical Circuits and Split-Wired Receptacles - Electrical Wiring Safety Requirements
GFCI breakers are expensive, panel hogs, and pointless with double insulated tools. They detect electricity travelling through the ground wire; if there _is_ no ground wire...


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

D'uh...it just hit me. Of course the answer is obvious; it's Alternating Current!
Phase A is in opposition to Phase B on the neutral. The neutral carries the unbalanced part of the Load, from either phase.
That's _why_ it's' critical that both legs of the split receptacle circuit be on _opposite phases of the panel_.


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## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

DaninVan said:


> D'uh...it just hit me. Of course the answer is obvious; it's Alternating Current!
> Phase A is in opposition to Phase B on the neutral. The neutral carries the unbalanced part of the Load, from either phase.
> That's _why_ it's' critical that both legs of the split receptacle circuit be on _opposite phases of the panel_.


Ah Dan, made you think!(made me think as well!)You are right of course! There is still the issue of 240V existing on different parts of a 120V outlet. You can literally run a 240V tool from that thing(in no proper arrangement admittedly). And the GFCI issue is still rather ugly.

I still prefer separate neutrals for both circuits. In a shop environment, I prefer to put the wiring in conduit, and pull separate wires, over using the romex type stuff.

The 12GA/20A breaker thing is probably why I have never had a breaker trip running my router(3.25HP) and shop vac on the same circuit. That and "15A" routers don't usually hit 15 amps! Those are about the only machines I ever run together on the same circuit. If a router table is wired so that both come on at the same time with one switch, kinda defeats the whole purpose as well. As far as kitchens go, I prefer to have high current appliances on dedicated circuits, period.

PS that current balance thing also depends on power factor!


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

"PS that current balance thing also depends on power factor!"
My Physicist neighbour used to obsess about power factor; my Electrical Contractor buddy just rolled his eyes...


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## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

DaninVan said:


> "PS that current balance thing also depends on power factor!"
> My Physicist neighbour used to obsess about power factor; my Electrical Contractor buddy just rolled his eyes...


Yeah, I think the built in safety factor would probably cover that, anyway


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## TRN_Diesel (Feb 24, 2009)

Ok you guys glad to see you worked this out. Now can we get back to the main topic of this thread which is helping him with his garage re-build!


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## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

TRN_Diesel said:


> Ok you guys glad to see you worked this out. Now can we get back to the main topic of this thread which is helping him with his garage re-build!


Oh, I don't know Dan, just trying to help keep him from going for shop number three! Shop Safety and all.


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## Willway (Aug 16, 2012)

Dmeadows said:


> Uhhh, don't know what your code says, but if you are drawing 15A on one recept and 15A on the other.... with a common 14GA neutral(white) wire, You are drawing 30A on the neutral, NO? Sounds like a fire hazard to me! That would require a 10GA neutral!!!  I won't even discuss what happens if you are on concrete floor where ground fault recepts are required!
> 
> PS Also won't talk about the possibility of there being 240V within a single duplex receptacle if adjacent 120V breakers are used! Yuuuuck! Better be really sure what you are doing on that one.
> 
> My suggestion would be pull the second neutral(split the neutral side of the duplex recepts as well!) and make sure both circuits within a run of duplex outlets are on the same side of the 240V! Then each individual circuit can be on its own GFCI! Also I would run 12GA, not 14GA.


Hi Duane, and all that are reading this. As far back as I can remember, which isn't as long as it used to be, the code (NEC) has required at least two 20 amp (#12 wire) circuits for all kitchen outlets. It would be my suggestion (and is my practice) to run all outlets in #12 wire and save the #14 wire for lighting only. As far as 220v in one box, I don't see a problem with that. All of Europe is wired that way, and think nothing about it. If anyone opens a box with an outlet with a black wire on one side and a red on the other* you should expect 220v*, and that is the only way you can avoid having 30amp on the neutral. *The big drawback to split outlets is it takes 2 breakers to kill all the power to that outlet and you have to be very careful.* I don't like the split circuits for that reason, I had rather use closer box spacing or double duplex boxes. I am a strong believer in GFCI circuits for all shop outlets, either breakers or feed through receptacles. There is a huge advantage to using 'feed through' GFCI outlets, only the first outlet in line needs to be a GFCI. It will protect all the other regular outlets in line on that circuit, and are much cheaper than breakers, and work just as well.


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## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

Willway said:


> Hi Duane, and all that are reading this. As far back as I can remember, which isn't as long as it used to be, the code (NEC) has required at least two 20 amp (#12 wire) circuits for all kitchen outlets. It would be my suggestion (and is my practice) to run all outlets in #12 wire and save the #14 wire for lighting only. As far as 220v in one box, I don't see a problem with that. All of Europe is wired that way, and think nothing about it. If anyone opens a box with an outlet with a black wire on one side and a red on the other* you should expect 220v*, and that is the only way you can avoid having 30amp on the neutral. *The big drawback to split outlets is it takes 2 breakers to kill all the power to that outlet and you have to be very careful.* I don't like the split circuits for that reason, I had rather use closer box spacing or double duplex boxes. I am a strong believer in GFCI circuits for all shop outlets, either breakers or feed through receptacles. There is a huge advantage to using 'feed through' GFCI outlets, only the first outlet in line needs to be a GFCI. It will protect all the other regular outlets in line on that circuit, and are much cheaper than breakers, and work just as well.


Hi Dick, Yep, I agree with all you said. I never run #14 for any thing but lights. I have seen too many people, both electricians and non-electricians, do stupid things to trust just wire color to indicate the presence of 240V in a box! GFCI's are designed to trip on any mismatch between the neutral and hot wires, therefore if the neutral serves 2 circuits, it guarantees it will trip. I have seen this happen because someone wired a new light and pulled a neutral from here, and a hot wire from there. Took me several minutes to figure that one out! Fortunately both were on the same phase!

If I were going to split outlets, I would still run 2 neutrals and keep them on the same phase, with separate breakers. Still allows 2 high load devices on a box. No surprise 240v. No GFCI problems! Just need to keep total 120V circuits balanced on both phases. So if you are run say 4 total 120v circuits, put 2 on each phase, just not the 2 on the same duplex outlet.

Just my thoughts, with the disclaimer that although I am a professional electronic tech, I am _NOT_ a licensed electrician, though I have wired/rewired several houses and several shops!


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## N'awlins77 (Feb 25, 2011)

I've got some cuz's living in da Parish, Rob!! Did you go eat some mudbugs at the Festival, last week (I think it was) over there?


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## TRN_Diesel (Feb 24, 2009)

Willway said:


> Hi Duane, and all that are reading this. As far back as I can remember, which isn't as long as it used to be, the code (NEC) has required at least two 20 amp (#12 wire) circuits for all kitchen outlets. It would be my suggestion (and is my practice) to run all outlets in #12 wire and save the #14 wire for lighting only. As far as 220v in one box, I don't see a problem with that. All of Europe is wired that way, and think nothing about it. If anyone opens a box with an outlet with a black wire on one side and a red on the other* you should expect 220v*, and that is the only way you can avoid having 30amp on the neutral. *The big drawback to split outlets is it takes 2 breakers to kill all the power to that outlet and you have to be very careful.* I don't like the split circuits for that reason, I had rather use closer box spacing or double duplex boxes. I am a strong believer in GFCI circuits for all shop outlets, either breakers or feed through receptacles. There is a huge advantage to using 'feed through' GFCI outlets, only the first outlet in line needs to be a GFCI. It will protect all the other regular outlets in line on that circuit, and are much cheaper than breakers, and work just as well.


That is what I did for my shop, run 12 gauge wire into a GFCI box and off the load side ran power to remaining plugs downstream. This saved me a ton of money on breakers. Each wall is on a separate circuit wired this way with the lights being on their own `14 gauge circuit. I have three separate 220 volt circuits in my shop. One dedicated to dust collection, table saw and the other is shared between the jointer and band saw. Being a one man shop the only two machines I have running at the same time would be one machine (table saw) and the dust collection. This has worked for me and I have gotten by using just a 60 amp service.

The other thing I did was purchase a label maker and identified the circuits very CLEARLY with a printed label. When the electrical inspector came he looked at the wiring coming in all lined up and parallel and then saw the labels and smiled at me and said he wished more people would do it that way. The inspector passed my wiring and said I should consider becoming an electrician, well I was shocked by his comments! :dance3:


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## YaBoyRob (Jan 13, 2013)

Nawlins: I did NOT go to the Crawfish Festival this year sadly, I was out of town and just returned.

Everyone thanks so much, I have pasted all this info into a word doc and sent it to my electrician, he will know what to do and what I need I am sure. Looks like what he gave me was a bit under-powered.

As I rebuild I will take pics so everyone can see how it comes out, and thanks again!


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Wow, what a great series of posts! Opened my eyes to electrical in the shop i plan to build. Thanks to everyone. I do prefer 12 ga and 20 amp breakers. I like the idea of split boxes, but I've alternated circuits one and two with and outlet every 2 feet, so don't really have any shortage of available power, but I'm going to rethink that for the next shop.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Tom, and others; there's really no problem with #14 ga wiring. The issue is that you MUST not exceed 15A devices and protection with it. Unfortunately, a lot of machinery pushes the limits on that overload limitation, especially under heavy loading and/or start-up. 
Keep in mind that there are stringent limits to how much wire you can put into a junction box of any given cubic capacity. Using #12 reduces the number of wires that can be brought into the box. Just pointing that out in case anyone has forgotten about that! 
Also remember that the receptacle _also_ must be 15A -20 rated. You can't connect devices that are rated at less than the breaker rating. That doesn't mean that you can't plug your 15A router into the cct; just accept that the router will fail _before_ the breaker pops. 
The readily available (cheap) GFCI receptacles are NOT rated for a 20A cct. According to the code you _can't_ use them on a 20A breaker protected cct; you'd have to use a* 20A GFCI breaker*


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## Willway (Aug 16, 2012)

DaninVan said:


> Tom, and others; there's really no problem with #14 ga wiring. The issue is that you MUST not exceed 15A devices and protection with it. Unfortunately, a lot of machinery pushes the limits on that overload limitation, especially under heavy loading and/or start-up.
> Keep in mind that there are stringent limits to how much wire you can put into a junction box of any given cubic capacity. Using #12 reduces the number of wires that can be brought into the box. Just pointing that out in case anyone has forgotten about that!
> Also remember that the receptacle _also_ must be 15A -20 rated. You can't connect devices that are rated at less than the breaker rating. That doesn't mean that you can't plug your 15A router into the cct; just accept that the router will fail _before_ the breaker pops.
> The readily available (cheap) GFCI receptacles are NOT rated for a 20A cct. According to the code you _can't_ use them on a 20A breaker protected cct; you'd have to use a* 20A GFCI breaker*


Hi Dan, this may be the code in Canada, but there is no such code in the US. At least according to the NEC. 15 amp receptacles are allowed on a 20amp #12 wire circuit, unless that circuit only supplies one outlet. The circuit breaker's only purpose is to protect the wire, not what is hooked to it. I do agree 20amp receptacles should be used in a work shop because of the expected load.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi

When wire my shop up I used #10 and #12 wire most of the outlets are the 2 gang type (4 outlets) and are on the 20 amp breakers and all the lights are on the 15 amp breakers,I had a line dropped in from the pole to a 100 amp service I wish I had put in a 200 amp service because I have 4ea. 220 outlets ..can't have to many outlets in the shop..and yes I have 20A GFCI breakers, on the 20 amp.lines one each per line.

==


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

All wiring in my shop is 12 gauge. Outlets are all 20 amp rated. Lighting is on #12 and the circuit is shared with a cooler (soon to be replaced with an AC unit). Lights are all fluorescent of some sort, so very small load on the shared circuit.

One thing I did that is great: Workshop is located about 60 feet from back porch and it gets very dark here in the desert. Lots of critters around, so I put up several exterior lights on patio and workshop that use a radio type remote to turn on. All lights go on at once and there is a control in the shop and near the rear house door so I don't have to walk out in the dark. OK, I get nervous in the dark out here in Coyoteville, I admit it, and this was an easy cure. Turn lights off once I get in the workshop, but on again when I walk back to the house. I'm going to add a couple of motion detector lights for security purposes.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

" I'm going to add a couple of motion detector lights for security purposes. "

Me too I have them all around the shop and the house and the drive way and the walk way,it drives the Boss nuts when the dogs are out about but it's safe.

==


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## Willway (Aug 16, 2012)

Shop lighting is something to think about. My son and I are changing the shop over to large screw in compact florescent bulbs. First is the expense to operate, second is they don't have the cold weather starting problem of regular florescent fixtures, third is the long life of the bulbs. You can purchase a 10 pack of these CFL's for the less than the cost of a pair of conventional florescent bulbs. The roof of the shop is over 15ft so the fixtures will be mounted on the walls at a little over 8ft for easy access. Conventional florescent bulbs are on their way out of the marketplace, so plan ahead.


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