# Diary of a router in use



## Tom76 (Aug 28, 2009)

*Diary of a router in actual use: not ideas of what could be done .*

Getting more from my router with the use of template guides.
This topic was introduced at my request some years ago as I was I trying to introduce new routing techniques in the past to create some interest in producing projects not considered suitable for producing on the router table, IMHO, to inform members that it is not always possible to produce 90% of all routing processes with the router in the table. I have not posted this to start any conflict among members but only to start a sort of Diary of what the router is capable of. A sort of daily use of the router in the workshop not what I have done in the past

This all started when I volunteered to produce three small tables for our local church: now I really mean SMALL. So I had to consider what mode I would use to produce the various processes required. There are a number of processes required to complete the design I have submitted. It has been necessary to produce some jigs to complete the processes and these will be posted, I suppose in the same way when we are doing dovetails we use a dovetail jig well I'm using my jigs that I have constructed.

It is not my intention to go into great detail on how the jigs were constructed, but simply to illustrate what I used. (Like the dovetail or finger joint jigs)

I will start of by posting a couple of pics of the two tables (by no means completed) as I still have to add the tops so that will require more processes.

You may wish to comment on how you would tackle the problem and I would appreciate any comments you have backed by what has been produced not by *'I think this would work'*

Both projects are three legged table joined to a Hexagonal column.

Tom 
(Template Tom)


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

*request please*

Hi Tom:

During this project please, please show us how to make precision templates. You and Harry keep showing us these fantastic projects but never show us the process by which you make the templates. The closest I've gotten to precision is with a striking knife and freehand skis and even that wasn't accurate enough. I'm thoroughly frustrated with how my templates are flawed. Even my straight line ones aren't that good, and that's using a table saw and a jointer. I typically use 1/4" luan plywood.


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## AxlMyk (Jun 13, 2006)

I made some plant stands with a similar base mounting arrangement. Worked well with dowels.
http://www.routerforums.com/show-n-tell/4001-plant-stand.html


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## BrianS (Nov 7, 2004)

Tom, I have to agree with Ron here... you have produced some nice things over the years, but for those of us not as experienced as you, a bit more information on process would be nice.

Your church should really appreciate these tables as they are really looking nice. Please post pics of the finished product.


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## Timberwerkz (Jan 1, 2010)

Tom

Did you use any other tools besides a Handheld router in the final shaping and joint cutting? If you only used the router in handheld I would like to see the jig you used for all of the bevel cuts on the legs,if you don't mind. I know that would be very easy on a table and am truly curious how to accomplish the same thing with a hand held router 

Chris


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## Tom76 (Aug 28, 2009)

AxlMyk said:


> I made some plant stands with a similar base mounting arrangement. Worked well with dowels.
> http://www.routerforums.com/show-n-tell/4001-plant-stand.html


Mike this is exactly what I meant backing up what you have already done with pics. I certainly have *no intention of saying* "I would not do it that way" but what I will post is an alternative method I used. 
Tom
(Template TOM)


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## Tom76 (Aug 28, 2009)

Timberwerkz said:


> Tom
> 
> Did you use any other tools besides a Handheld router in the final shaping and joint cutting? If you only used the router in handheld I would like to see the jig you used for all of the bevel cuts on the legs,if you don't mind. I know that would be very easy on a table and am truly curious how to accomplish the same thing with a hand held router
> 
> Chris


Chris The only tool I have used so far is the router in the hand held position, you say "that would be very easy" table I assume you were referring to a router in the router table. I was not prepared to attempt such a small item in the table mode.

Tom
(Template Tom)


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## Tom76 (Aug 28, 2009)

*Diary of a router in use Hand Held Part 1*

In both instances I decided to construct a Hexagonal column made from 40mm x 12mm material.

Each edge was produced at 60 degrees with the router as I considered the process could be achieved with greater safety. I am well aware that most members would use the table mounted router or maybe a circular saw (Two very large and expensive Jigs) and as I am trying illustrate how we can get more from our router if it is used in the hand held position, and also with the aid of the template guides. If I do have to use other machinery I will add it to the list, but for the moment just imagine the plunge router is all you have to work with.

*Hexagonal column:* 
Material maybe able to be produced dressed to size from your local timber supplier. 400mm x 40mm x 12mm

I put together a box 400mm x 300mm x 40mm deep. This is the same Jig Holder I mentioned in previous postings. Again the material can be purchased 40mm x 19mm
_
Note; This is one jig I constructed without the need to sit at the computer and design it so I have no such drawings to show_

All I did was place some blocks in position cut at an angle of 60 degrees then added a fence connecting them together. This held the material at the angle I required.

I needed some form of fixture for want of a better word so I added a base to the box to begin with then I inserted devices that would keep the material secure at the angle.

I produced a template which overhung the Jig Holder with a slot in it for the cutter to traverse as I pushed the router up and down to make the cut. In this instance I did not use the 40mm guide to control the router movement so I used the 160mm guide (Which is the base of my router) adding two strips to the top of the template to guide the router.

Rout one side, turn it over rout other side; *All done with Greater Safety Awareness.*

Repeat the process with the next 5 pieces and you are all set to glue them together. To see it in action visit You Tube and look for Routing with Tom O'Donnell where it is explained in detail. 

*Producing the legs for the smaller table: *

I already had the jig and templates for another larger three legged table design completed so I used what I had and simply reduced the size of the material I needed and inserted it into the Jig. 

This was more complex as it not only involved producing a small shape there was also added or I should say removed from the face of the material both sides simple to add some design feature.

The initial shape was produced with a 40mm guide and a 10mm cutter and the feature shape was inserted with the aid of a 40mm guide and a flat bottom beading cutter. 

Will have to come back on this as I have to go out
Tom
(Template Tom)


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## Timberwerkz (Jan 1, 2010)

Tom,

I didn't intend to start a well I can do that on table debate. I actually am very interested in your methods in the construction of the these tables and appreciate the depth of explanation you have given so far. I use my router table a lot and would like to learn alternative ways that can be faster and safer if applied properly.

I just watched the above mentioned video, that was a great idea 

Thank you again for sharing,

Chris


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## Tom76 (Aug 28, 2009)

Timberwerkz said:


> Tom,
> 
> I didn't intend to start a well I can do that on table debate. I actually am very interested in your methods in the construction of the these tables and appreciate the depth of explanation you have given so far. I use my router table a lot and would like to learn alternative ways that can be faster and safer if applied properly.
> 
> ...


Chris sorry if you thought I was getting at you it was never my intention people can produce the various processes any way they wish all I am showing is how I set out to do it. I look forward to your comments in the future as we can learn from each other.
Tom 
(Template Tom)


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## Tom76 (Aug 28, 2009)

allthunbs said:


> Hi Tom:
> 
> During this project please, please show us how to make precision templates. You and Harry keep showing us these fantastic projects but never show us the process by which you make the templates. The closest I've gotten to precision is with a striking knife and freehand skis and even that wasn't accurate enough. I'm thoroughly frustrated with how my templates are flawed. Even my straight line ones aren't that good, and that's using a table saw and a jointer. I typically use 1/4" luan plywood.


Ron I have enclosed pics of the templates I have used but it would take more than a few postings to explain all the set up required but hopefully you will be able to get started from what I have presented, if not I know I will get a few questions. To produce the curved shapes will require the use of a circle cutting jig capable of producing small circles. Just as a matter of interest I have produced a new technique with the circle cutting jig to trim edges and add decorative edges. No need to insert the router into the router table for a number of processes.
The latest pics will show the actual templates and my new style Jig holder (Wonder why I did not think of it before now) I suppose I am a slow learner, I must admit this is a great way to set up the material Jigs and templates.
Sorry I have been unable to upload my pics
Tom 
(Template Tom)


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

allthunbs said:


> Hi Tom:
> 
> During this project please, please show us how to make precision templates. You and Harry keep showing us these fantastic projects but never show us the process by which you make the templates. The closest I've gotten to precision is with a striking knife and freehand skis and even that wasn't accurate enough. I'm thoroughly frustrated with how my templates are flawed. Even my straight line ones aren't that good, and that's using a table saw and a jointer. I typically use 1/4" luan plywood.


Ron, I really must take exception to your comment that I never show how I make things. Every single one, and there have been dozens, of my projects have been accompanied by a full photo shoot showing EXACTLY how I produced the end result. I'll even give you an example by starting a new thread under general woodworking, showing HOW I made a trinket box from Jacaranda. Whilst this project didn't require templates, many of my previous ones did, and I show clearly how to make the required templates. By the way, you'll find that MDF is far better for templates.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

harrysin said:


> Ron, I really must take exception to your comment that I never show how I make things. Every single one, and there have been dozens, of my projects have been accompanied by a full photo shoot showing EXACTLY how I produced the end result. I'll even give you an example by starting a new thread under general woodworking, showing HOW I made a trinket box from Jacaranda. Whilst this project didn't require templates, many of my previous ones did, and I show clearly how to make the required templates. By the way, you'll find that MDF is far better for templates.


sorry


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

I can't hear you Ron!


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

harrysin said:


> i can't hear you ron!


:d


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## Bob N (Oct 12, 2004)

Nice to see you back Harry..... and in excellent form too! :dance3:


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## Tom76 (Aug 28, 2009)

*Diary of a router in use Hand Held Part 1*

I thought I had a video on You Tube showing routing the completed small table leg, then it was only a matter of reducing it to the size required, or even inserting a shorter piece of material in the first place (this is what I had done)
I'll have a go at submitting the photographs I could not post yesterday 

The pics I have presented show the Jig Holder/template (3)
Template (1) to produce the shape of the legs
Template (2) --(3): (2) to rout the top of the leg and if a full size leg was to be made rout the base of the leg..(3) was used to rout the recess on the side of the leg.
Jig Holder/Template (3) To position the material and also to complete the recess on the other side of the leg.

*Reminder;
Do not rout all the way through leave 1-2mm for trimming* as the material would 'float' in the jig.

If you not have access to a trimmer or a router table set up the router where you can complete the trimming (The router has been set up on my Circle cutting jig)

I suppose that is Stage 1 completed Now we have to think of what joint to use .(a) biscuit (b) dowel (c) mortice and tenon or (d) sliding dovetails. One of the problems I saw with *a b c* was clamping them to the column so I proceeded with option *d* This meant I had to produce two jigs to produce the male and female dovetail. 

I have seen this achieved many times on the router table but as I was conducting a Hand held session I had no choice but to produce the jigs. Which are all set up for the next time I want to produce this joint, also I felt more confident using it hand held where my fingers were not near any cutters

Tom
(Template Tom)


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Tom:

How do you get the sides of the template so clean and smooth? If I tried that I'd have divots all over the place ;-(


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## gav (Oct 12, 2009)

I'm wondering the same thing. Seems to me you might cut it on a scroll saw and then spend time doing some very careful sanding.

Is that how you make your templates Tom ?

Ok, I re read your post and now I understand that you are using a circle cutting guide to cut the curves in the templates and I suppose some kind of straight edge for the, well, straight edges.
Is that right ?
Do they require further filing or sanding ?
I'd like to see a specific photo tutorial on the method that both you and Harry use to make templates.


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## Santé (Jan 14, 2010)

gav said:


> I'm wondering the same thing. Seems to me you might cut it on a scroll saw and then spend time doing some very careful sanding.
> 
> Is that how you make your templates Tom ?
> 
> ...


Yes, and me too ! 
Other question: what is the material of yours templates ? I never see that

Thanks for the answer.

Santé


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## Tom76 (Aug 28, 2009)

gav said:


> I'm wondering the same thing. Seems to me you might cut it on a scroll saw and then spend time doing some very careful sanding.
> 
> Is that how you make your templates Tom ?
> 
> ...


Gav.. No scroll saw required (Trying to do it with a hand held router) And I suppose if I did there would be quite a bit of sanding to do, and yes this is an alternative method that could be used if a scroll saw is readily available.

As you see I have cut the shapes with the use of the circle Cutting Jig and I sometime do have a little sanding where the two curves meet. The straight edges are cut with the aid of a simple adjustable template for the various lengths required, usually with a trimming cutter.

If you study the initial drawing of the curved shape you will find centre-points that I have used. (The same centre points that would be required if we were to produce the item making the male template first then completing the process on the router table) What I have produced are 'Female' Templates.

*Making the templates* This is the *way I do it* not sure how Harry would tackle it. Like the drawings submitted in one of the previous posts you will see two centre lines Vertical and horizontal; from there I make my calculations to locate the centres required; first to draw the actual shape then to draw the cut-out shape and as you can see the template is flipped over as I make the outside cut then flip over to make the inside cut. _Note; nothing to stop you from drawing the shapes free hand as some members would suggest._ Of course in the new set-up I have introduced I have produced two legs at once
Tom 
(Template Tom)


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## Tom76 (Aug 28, 2009)

Santé said:


> Yes, and me too !
> Other question: what is the material of yours templates ? I never see that
> 
> Thanks for the answer.
> ...


Sante.. The material I have used in this instance is called HEX CORE what I used when I was refurbishing Executive Aircraft (Very Strong Very Light and VERY expensive) I did have some leftover material at the time
Tom
(Template Tom)


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

Tom76 said:


> Gav.. No scroll saw required (Trying to do it with a hand held router) And I suppose if I did there would be quite a bit of sanding to do,  and yes this is an alternative method that could be used if a scroll saw is readily available.
> 
> As you see I have cut the shapes with the use of the circle Cutting Jig and I sometime do have a little sanding where the two curves meet. The straight edges are cut with the aid of a simple adjustable template for the various lengths required, usually with a trimming cutter.
> 
> ...



Hi Tom,

Thanks for taking the extra time to pass on your methods.

I think your legs etc are so well shaped , we all thought they were complex 
shifting radius curves( as in a french curve).

I did not realise they were a number of fixed radius circles.

I remember Harry showing the pattern for his French Mantle clock and when you saw the radii points it became very simple.

Rgds
James


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

jw2170 said:


> Hi Tom,
> 
> Thanks for taking the extra time to pass on your methods.
> 
> ...


Perhaps these shots will give members a better understanding of template making.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Harry

I must ask why not just draw it out and cut it out with the band saw ? 

=======


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## Tom76 (Aug 28, 2009)

harrysin said:


> Perhaps these shots will give members an better understanding of template making.


Harry;
With reference to pic #1: I recall all those years ago giving you advice on how to make the template and I'm afraid that was not what I had described at the time of discussion in fact I cannot follow your procedure listed in the photograph.
Tom 
(Template Tom)


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## Tom76 (Aug 28, 2009)

allthunbs said:


> Tom:
> 
> How do you get the sides of the template so clean and smooth? If I tried that I'd have divots all over the place ;-(


Ron: When they are cut with the router cutter and guided by the use of the circle cutting jig or the template they turn out fine with very slight sanding required. Another trick I have is to edge the cut-outs with Iron on veneer (Not possible with an iron of course but with the aid of a heat gun)

Tom 
(Template Tom)


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## Tom76 (Aug 28, 2009)

jw2170 said:


> Hi Tom,
> 
> Thanks for taking the extra time to pass on your methods.
> 
> ...


James: I had a quick look at the pics I have posted and I think it shows clearly the centre points of the arcs required. I have inserted a small cross instead of a dot; with the small cross there is no problem locating the dead centre of the radii required. Usually presented this way in most drawings for improving the accuracy of the required point.

Tom
(Template Tom)


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## Tom76 (Aug 28, 2009)

bobj3 said:


> Hi Harry
> 
> I must ask why not just draw it out and cut it out with the band saw ?
> 
> =======


I thought I would ignore this comment but I was afraid some members may consider that as an alternative method. 

My answer to the suggestion is when it is cut out with the band saw you tend to weaken the template at least at one point.

Also as usual it will not render a true shape and another reason we may not have access to a band saw, plus I was working on using the router to it's full potential

Tom
(Template Tom)


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## Tom76 (Aug 28, 2009)

The weather here in the West has been very hot for quite some time.Too hot to spend in the workshop without air conditioning so I have not managed to produce the tops as yet. I was proposing to make the circular cutting the shapes with the router using my circle cutting jig again with the router in the hand held position.

I have produced drawings of what I propose to do attaching the legs, I had decided on sliding dovetails. Inserting this type of joint in more complex than first thought it would be, the problem being getting a nice fitting joint not too tight and of course not too loose.

I cut the dovetail in the column first using two routers one to make the initial cut with a straight cutter to remove most of the waste material, then complete it with the dovetail cutter. The jig I used was very simple a 40mm slot to control the 40mm guide. (of course you can use your own combination) For your information I used an Imperial cutter which measured 9/16th at the base of the cut with an angle of 15 degrees. Also I made the depth of cut 6mm deep.

What is constant about all the three cuts? _Depth, Angle,,,,measurement at the base of the cut-out,,,,width of the cut-out at the top or flush with the material_

This is what we have work on to produce the male section of the joint. For those who do not like working out the maths side to produce the joint would normally set up the cutter in the router table and with trial and error adjust the fence to achieve the final result and those who have made such a joint would tell you they did not get it correct the first time and there were many adjustments of the fence until it was correct.

How am I going to explain the method I came up with when it does involve some maths, some members seem to just ignore the maths involved keeping, in mind that I will not be using the router table.

The two Jigs submitted, one to rout the female cut which is quite straight forward , and Jig #2 to rout the male part of the joint. I will not include details of how I came to produce the size of the opening just yet, and who knows some may come up with the answer themselves.

Tom
(Template Tom)


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

I will be grateful if members would please study my post #24 above, and advise me what I need to change in order for you to understand my method of making the two templates, it appears that I'm lacking the ability to transfer my knowledge to the forum and I want to correct this inability as soon as possible.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Tom76 said:


> Harry;
> With reference to pic #1: I recall all those years ago giving you advice on how to make the template and I'm afraid that was not what I had described at the time of discussion in fact I cannot follow your procedure listed in the photograph.
> Tom
> (Template Tom)


 Most of us after leaving school sort the wheat from the chaff. Just imagine a world where everyone believed every word spoken by a teacher, we would be like zombies without the ability to think for ourselves. Education should be about training students TO think for themselves.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

bobj3 said:


> Hi Harry
> 
> I must ask why not just draw it out and cut it out with the band saw ?
> 
> =======


Bob, I know that this is a rhetorical question, but I'll answer it anyway!
#1...this is a ROUTING forum
#2...most members would know how to do it with a band saw
#3...lots of sanding would be required because a band saw doesn't leave a smooth edge
#4...freehand can NEVER be as accurate as with the use of a template
#5...every item produced with templates are identical

I'm sure that with a bit of thought I could come up with more reasons!


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## Santé (Jan 14, 2010)

Thanks all for yours anwers .
For Tom76: the marchand of my street do not have Hex core:haha::haha:


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

harrysin said:


> I will be grateful if members would please study my post #24 above, and advise me what I need to change in order for you to understand my method of making the two templates, it appears that I'm lacking the ability to transfer my knowledge to the forum and I want to correct this inability as soon as possible.


NUTS!

NO WAY!

You are you and I wouldn't change a damned thing. Just because my skull is too thick sometimes doesn't mean that you're not imparting information. There are others here that understand everything that you're saying. No way in hell are you at fault. I admire that you have the guts to stand up and be heard and pass on information that all of us will benefit from.

From my standpoint, I learn from a variety of sources and that both you and Tom chose to contribute is very much appreciated. Now that this discussion has taken on a much broader context with far more participants only stands to benefit us all. Tom uses special template materials, you suggest MDF and the list goes on. Everyone of these statements helps all of the members and gives us all a broad spectrum of materials and methods.

Tom is trying to show the purist method. But not everyone has the confidence to do it that way. I have levels of care in my work, quick and dirty, looks OK and eye candy. For the quick and dirty, I'd use the band saw. Maybe for the "Looks OK" too. But for the eye candy, it better be better than perfect.

Thanks to everyone that chooses to participate that we may all learn.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Thank you Ron for your thoughts. If in fact any member who admits admits to not fully understanding that post of mine, I have prepared another photo shoot that goes into more detail and will be happy to post it if requested. No doubt because of age, Tom has become a little confused. He had no part in the design or making of the template for my first French balloon clock. What must be in his mind is that when I told him that I intended to trim the bottom and top of the clock on my radial arm saw to make it level with the head, he designed and emailed me a dimensioned drawing of a template so that I could ROUT the bottom and the flat top to take the pediment. 
This shot of the template, posted a couple of years ago gives credit to it's designer, which is more than Tom gives for photos of projects that I made,and are shown on his various sites.


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## Santé (Jan 14, 2010)

i don't understand english very well, but with photos, Google translate and Harrap's dictionary, i understand the generality of yours posts. I don't find some expressions in Google or in Harrap's but, with a little imagination, i understand what you will say.
I discovered an other world on your forum for woodworking with the router 
Thanks for all and for perfecting my english too ! ))


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Santé said:


> i don't understand english very well, but with photos, Google translate and Harrap's dictionary, i understand the generality of yours posts. I don't find some expressions in Google or in Harrap's but, with a little imagination, i understand what you will say.


Vous avez seulement besoin de demander d'aide si tu ne comprends pas quelque choses.

You only need ask for help if you don't understand something.



> I discovered an other world on your forum for woodworking with the router
> Thanks for all and for perfecting my english too ! ))


Et nous avons bien apris avec votre contributions aussi. C'est une rue de deux directions. J'esperai que ca continue pour plusieurs d'annees.

And we have learned well with your contributions as well. It is a two way street. I hope it continues for many years.


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## Santé (Jan 14, 2010)

Thank you very much for your proposal and thank too for what you wrote on "livre d'or" of my french site lescopeaux.asso.fr


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## Tom76 (Aug 28, 2009)

To answer Harry’s Posting
Members
Sorry for the lengthy post to this topic but I thought it would be easier to follow what has been posted without jumping from one post to another, only from where Harry had submitted a few pics and explanation of making the Templates
Please Note; This is not intended and never has been to put anyone down and especially Harry for he has done wondesr to assist me in trying to get people to consider the use of template guides
Quote<Perhaps these shots will give members a better understanding of template making.>Quote
Harry;
With reference to pic #1: I recall all those years ago giving you advice on how to make the template and I'm afraid that was not what I had described at the time of discussion in fact I cannot follow your procedure listed in the photograph.
Tom
I will be grateful if members would please study my post #24 above, and advise me what I need to change in order for you to understand my method of making the two templates, it appears that I'm lacking the ability to transfer my knowledge to the forum and I want to correct this inability as soon as possible.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom76 
Harry;
With reference to pic #1: I recall all those years ago giving you advice on how to make the template and I'm afraid that was not what I had described at the time of discussion in fact I cannot follow your procedure listed in the photograph.
Tom 
(Template Tom)
Most of us after leaving school sort the wheat from the chaff. Just imagine a world where everyone believed every word spoken by a teacher, we would be like zombies without the ability to think for ourselves. Education should be about training students TO think for themselves.
Harry this was never intended to be used as a character assassination just simple to draw your attention to an anomaly on what you had presented. If you reflect back to the time when you were trying to produce the template when came round to ask a question and if you do recall I answered your question before you even asked it and it was not about the removing material from the top or reducing the sided to size; that conversation developed at a later date 
It was the method of producing the templates to produce the curved surfaces, and I still recall what I had advised you to do was not the method that you have presented here
As a school teacher I did exactly what you have said to my students “Think the problem through and if you do get stuck then come and see me” As a matter of fact I have tried to do exactly that here without handing everything out on a plate
Quote:
Originally Posted by harrysin 
I will be grateful if members would please study my post #24 above, and advise me what I need to change in order for you to understand my method of making the two templates, it appears that I'm lacking the ability to transfer my knowledge to the forum and I want to correct this inability as soon as possible.
NUTS!

NO WAY!

You are you and I wouldn't change a damned thing. Just because my skull is too thick sometimes doesn't mean that you're not imparting information. There are others here that understand everything that you're saying. No way in hell are you at fault. I admire that you have the guts to stand up and be heard and pass on information that all of us will benefit from.

From my standpoint, I learn from a variety of sources and that both you and Tom chose to contribute is very much appreciated. Now that this discussion has taken on a much broader context with far more participants only stands to benefit us all. Tom uses special template materials, you suggest MDF and the list goes on. Everyone of these statements helps all of the members and gives us all a broad spectrum of materials and methods.

Tom is trying to show the purist method. But not everyone has the confidence to do it that way. I have levels of care in my work, quick and dirty, looks OK and eye candy. For the quick and dirty, I'd use the band saw. Maybe for the "Looks OK" too. But for the eye candy, it better be better than perfect.

Thanks to everyone that chooses to participate that we may all learn.
__________________
Allthunbs 

Thank you Ron for your thoughts. If in fact any member admits to not fully understanding that post of mine, I have prepared another photo shoot that goes into more detail and will be happy to post it if requested. No doubt because of age, Tom has become a little confused. He had no part in the design or making of the template for my first French balloon clock. What must be in his mind is that when I told him that I intended to trim the bottom and top of the clock on my radial arm saw to make it level with the head, he designed and emailed me a dimensioned drawing of a template so that I could ROUT the bottom and the flat top to take the pediment. 
This shot of the template, posted a couple of years ago gives credit to it's designer, which is more than Tom gives for photos of projects that I made,and are shown on his various sites.

Ron it is good to see others standing by Harry in what he has presented over the years but unless you can follow what he has presented as an answer and proceed to make the template then you should ask the question in the same way as I have done. I use a great deal of MDF for my templates, the only reason I used the Hexcore material was it was light and travelling round Australia doing demonstrations made life more comfortable. Also it was left over material I had when I was refurbishing Executive Jets
Again I have never tried to put Harry down only to make a point in the same way he has directed many questions to me over the years 
Harry I do not think I have become a little confused as I pointed out the reason for your visit with Geoff all those years ago. I appreciate the credit you have given me on this forum and I apologize for not adding your name to the little boxes where I assisted you when you were adding a design to the lid and if you do remember I introduced you to a new routing technique at that time.

Harry; again it was never my intention to put you down but only to assist you in your presentation. Please go back and look at what you have written and reconsider the contents.
Tom
(Template Tom)


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## Santé (Jan 14, 2010)

I don't read all this post because it is too hard for me to translate all but your sentence :"Just imagine a world where everyone believed every word spoken by a teacher, we would be like zombies without the ability to think for ourselves. Education should be about training students TO think for themselves." is mine too !
I was teacher too and y liked the student who contested what y sayed, that prouve that they think for themselves.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Santé said:


> I don't read all this post because it is too hard for me to translate all but your sentence :"Just imagine a world where everyone believed every word spoken by a teacher, we would be like zombies without the ability to think for ourselves. Education should be about training students TO think for themselves." is mine too !
> I was teacher too and y liked the student who contested what y sayed, that prouve that they think for themselves.


Daniel, what a shame that I didn't study under you at high school, after five years I learnt about five words in French, practically nothing about history or geography and very little about mathematics. But, because I had great physics and wood/metal work teachers, I left school with a great understanding of electronics and was very handy with tools.

So far as Tom is concerned, I have always acknowledged his skills with the router and ability to pass on these skills in a one on one situation, however,for years I have been attempting to get through to him that he has been going about trying to pass on these skills by text and technical drawings which leave most beginners with open mouths, the wrong way. He still doesn't believe that posting full photo shoots of projects from beginning to end is the way to attract a big following. Also I started telling him years ago that he was too interested in self-promotion by constantly pushing his background instead of letting members form their own opinions based on what he posts.
Finally to make sure that everyone understands how I designed and made the templates for the copy French balloon clock, here is a link to the complete photo shoot from design of templates to finished clock, which is the fisrt that I've made without a pediment and finial.

Perhaps Ron would be good enough to translate for Daniel, possibly by PM.

*http://www.routerforums.com/project-plans-how/14304-making-balloon-clock.html*


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

harrysin said:


> Perhaps Ron would be good enough to translate for Daniel, possibly by PM.


Daniel: demandez si vous avez besoin d'aide.

Daniel: ask if you need help.

Harry: finally, I've found alot of what I need. You put more work into the template than you do in the finished product. The secret to smooth templates is measure twice, cut once and use thin template materials.

All that information goes into the reference department for use when i get to that point.

Thanks Harry!


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## Santé (Jan 14, 2010)

Thanks, but it is not necessary, i undertood all what you say, only the 2 last words:"pediment and finial" have been more difficult for translate but now is ok.


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## Santé (Jan 14, 2010)

be glad to see that y understand more that what y thought after 3 years at 2 hours english per week at school. I went to school only until 16 years old, after learning sewing, after 21 years old 20 years tailor independant and after that, 20 years teacher of 
cuting and dresmaking for men.
That is my life


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

Harry,

I want to thank you for your presentation on template-making. Your 4-photo shoot is the best and clearest instructional set to introduce the construction of curved templates that I've seen. Your #1 photo in the post (#2 in the set) shows how you drew the shape of the clock, including the center points for your compass (also where your pivot point for where your circle-cutting jig will go). The straight lines between the compass center-points clearly show me where I'll stop cutting with one circle cut to let the next cut pick up with a smooth transition. If is unfortunate that the file uploader placed the #1 slide of the set as the #4 picture( it does jumble uploads sometimes), as it gives the overview of what you are going to be doing. The #2 photo in the post (#3 in the set) shows the resulting template you get when you use your circle jigs and the #4 photo (#3 in the set) shows it in use. It can't get much simpler and more straightforward than this.

For all (or at least the couple who had trouble following Harry's post), please go back at look at the photos again in the sequence of photos #4, v#1, #2 and last #3. I think it will become clear.

Harry...Any good educator knows when teaching a new concept, the best introductory example is the simplest-possible example that teaches the concept. You have chosen an excellent "simple" example of a complex-shaped template. 

With your photo shoot, I can now see how not only how to make a template for a complex shapes (two circles, where you want them to come together at their tangents to make a smooth transition), I can also see how this would be done if the complexity required you to use multiple overlayed templates to accomplish the cut.

All... If we *wanted* to use multiple templates to accomplish this cut, it would be straightforward to make one template with the two lower arcs and one with the center "clock face" arc, stopping each at the straight lines between the centerline of the circles. As long as the two templates were aligned perfectly on the stock, we'd end up with the same cut. Now while we would never do this for this particular cut, the same technique could be used if we wanted to make a shallow cut for an inlay around the inner edge, perhaps 1/4" in from the edge of the material. We would use the same paper drawing and just change the radius on the circle guide.

Tom.. You are correct in that a good instructor doesn't try to teach the student how to make a particular template but rather how to apply template-making to accomplish a complex cut. What you've missed is that a good teacher *does* use a very simple example to teach the student the basic concepts such that the student can extrapolate what they've learned to apply it to more complex problems in their routing. 

All: Some profess to be the "grand master" of template construction and their use, unlike us beginners who are trying to learn a new concept. Being a "grand master", I cannot fathom how they can fail to follow Harry's photo shoot. Are they really that dense or have they let their self-aggrandizing overwhelm their efforts to teach that which they profess as their "invention"?


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Santé said:


> Thanks, but it is not necessary, i undertood all what you say, only the 2 last words:"pediment and finial" have been more difficult for translate but now is ok.


pediment = fronton - le pied ou la base ou fondation d'une immeuble.

finial = fleuron - les feuilles ou branches ou orniment qui termine l'extreme hauteur d'une immeuble ou battis.


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## Santé (Jan 14, 2010)

Merci Allthunbs !
I finally understood what it was


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Santé said:


> Thanks, but it is not necessary, i undertood all what you say, only the 2 last words:"pediment and finial" have been more difficult for translate but now is ok.


Just to make sure Daniel, this will make it clear, It's a shot of the clock that won me the Oakpark spacer fence kindly donated by Bob Noles some time ago.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Thank you for that write up Jim, I was beginning to think that there was something lacking in my threads which are intended to show beginners the way that I do things in a clear concise way. I realise that you are an engineer Jim so I'm still wondering if rank and file members understand procedures from the way that I'm presenting them. If not, I'm quite prepared to modify my teaching methods as required.


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## RustyW (Dec 28, 2005)

harrysin said:


> I'm still wondering if rank and file members understand procedures from the way that I'm presenting them. If not, I'm quite prepared to modify my teaching methods as required.



Harry, I'm pretty rank, and I own several files. Way back when I joined this forum, I found Tom's methods interesting, but a little hard to follow. I was only able to figure it out when you came along with your projects and pictorials. Between the two of you I have learned a very safe and satisfying way of using the router. Keep doing it the way you have been, if I can do it , anyone can.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

I love your sense of humour Rusty and am so pleased that my threads are generally easy to understand.


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## Santé (Jan 14, 2010)

harrysin said:


> Just to make sure Daniel, this will make it clear, It's a shot of the clock that won me the Oakpark spacer fence kindly donated by Bob Noles some time ago.


Thanks Harry Pediment i saw just but finial no. y saw finial as a décorative routing on the face of the clock:thank_you2:


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

Tom76 said:


> James: I had a quick look at the pics I have posted and I think it shows clearly the centre points of the arcs required. I have inserted a small cross instead of a dot; with the small cross there is no problem locating the dead centre of the radii required. Usually presented this way in most drawings for improving the accuracy of the required point.
> 
> Tom
> (Template Tom)


You are correct, Tom.

My apologies.

I did not look at the pics properly.
You even show the radii of the segments.

James.


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## RStaron (Sep 25, 2009)

harrysin said:


> Thank you for that write up Jim, I was beginning to think that there was something lacking in my threads which are intended to show beginners the way that I do things in a clear concise way. I realise that you are an engineer Jim so I'm still wondering if rank and file members understand procedures from the way that I'm presenting them. If not, I'm quite prepared to modify my teaching methods as required.


Harry, I'm new to routing and very new to the use of templates. I generally can follow your photos and posts and understand how to make the templates. the only trouble is with the conversion of metric to imperial measurements. Only a minor thing though. You are clear in your posts and photo shoots. Thanks. I am learning very much from both you and Template Tom on the full potential of the router and the use of templates and guides. 
Tom, you are very wise in the use of the router and making of templates, it took a little bit to get used to the way you present your ways of making things but I have a better understanding the more I read your posts. 
You both are very good teachers. Thank you both very much for your teachings.

Ron


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

RStaron said:


> Harry, I'm new to routing and very new to the use of templates. I generally can follow your photos and posts and understand how to make the templates. the only trouble is with the conversion of metric to imperial measurements. Only a minor thing though. You are clear in your posts and photo shoots. Thanks. I am learning very much from both you and Template Tom on the full potential of the router and the use of templates and guides.
> Tom, you are very wise in the use of the router and making of templates, it took a little bit to get used to the way you present your ways of making things but I have a better understanding the more I read your posts.
> You both are very good teachers. Thank you both very much for your teachings.
> 
> Ron


Thanks Ron for your kind comments. The only difference between metric and imperial so far as my projects go is that metric is easier to calculate, for instance, we want to rout the inside of a box which measures 200mm x 100mm and decide to use a 30mm template guide and a 10mm cutter, using the simple formula guide dia. - cutter dia. + inside measurement of the box gives us 30mm - 10mm + 200mm = 220mm, and for the width:
30mm - 10mm + 100mm = 120mm. Now we decide on an imperial box measuring 8" x 4" internal and decide on a 1 1/4" guide and a 3/8" cutter, then, 1 1/4" - 3/8" + 8" = 8"7/8" by 1" 1/4" - 3/8" + 4" = 4"7/8" so the template cut-out must be 8"7/8" x 4"7/8".
We could just as well use a 1" guide and a 1/4" cutter, in which case the calculation becomes: 1" - 1/4" + 8" = 8"3/4" by 1" - 1/4" + 4" = 4" 7/8", and so with this example the opening in the template will be 8"3/4" x 4"3/4"

This shot is to remind you how simple this type of template is to make, ignore the measurements as these were for an earlier project.


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## Santé (Jan 14, 2010)

harrysin said:


> Thanks Ron for your kind comments. The only difference between metric and imperial so far as my projects go is that metric is easier to calculate, for instance, we want to rout the inside of a box which measures 200mm x 100mm and decide to use a 30mm template guide and a 10mm cutter, using the simple formula guide dia. - cutter dia. + inside measurement of the box gives us 30mm - 10mm + 200mm = 220mm, and for the width:
> 30mm - 10mm + 100mm = 120mm. Now we decide on an imperial box measuring 8" x 4" internal and decide on a 1 1/4" guide and a 3/8" cutter, then, 1 1/4" - 3/8" + 8" = 8"7/8" by 1" 1/4" - 3/8" + 4" = 4"7/8" so the template cut-out must be 8"7/8" x 4"7/8".
> We could just as well use a 1" guide and a 1/4" cutter, in which case the calculation becomes: 1" - 1/4" + 8" = 8"3/4" by 1" - 1/4" + 4" = 4" 7/8", and so with this example the opening in the template will be 8"3/4" x 4"3/4"
> 
> This shot is to remind you how simple this type of template is to make, ignore the measurements as these were for an earlier project.


Hi all

a friend of mine make a little programe (minder of 400 Ko) that translate metric in imperial or imperial in metric mesurement you can find it at this adress:
http://www.lescopeaux.asso.fr/Divers/clic.php3?url=Docs/BL_Convertisseur.zip

Santé


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## RStaron (Sep 25, 2009)

Thanks, Daniel. I'll give it a try.


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## Tom76 (Aug 28, 2009)

So far as Tom is concerned, I have always acknowledged his skills with the router and ability to pass on these skills in a one on one situation, 

Finally to make sure that everyone understands how I designed and made the templates for the copy French balloon clock, here is a link to the complete photo shoot from design of templates to finished clock, which is the fisrt that I've made without a pediment and finial.

*http://www.routerforums.com/project-plans-how/14304-making-balloon-clock.html*[/QUOTE]

Congratulations on that final Photo shoot reference you have posted exactly the method I would use. Now will you please go back to your post 24 and correct the wording you have submitted; that was what I was trying to help you with at the time of my posting.

To support what you had submitted which I knew was incorrect (posting 24) I have taken you word for word and tried to complete the template that you were asking others to make, and here are the results. 

I do have regrets; that others simply accepted what was presented in the small photo shoot, without making the attempt to produce the template for themselves. It was only after I had made a comment regarding the content that you came up with the proper procedure. Yes it looked so easy and if you do not mind as the person teaching you how to produce it in the first place I had to draw your attention to the wrong wording that was presented.

Pics 1-6 are produced from the information you had presented on posting 24 not really what was in your mind, as you knew what to do in the first place, but what you had presented was wrong. So as a teacher I would have to give you 1 out of ten for the attempt. I would have been wrong to accept your presentation and give you full marks. So enough said about my teaching skills all I had in mind was that the next person to make this clock would have the correct procedure presented and you have with your photo shoot 

_Just as a matter of interest this posting was presented as an easy way to make templates, and had nothing to do with the shape I was presenting in the first place_

Tom
(Template Tom)


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Tom76 said:


> So far as Tom is concerned, I have always acknowledged his skills with the router and ability to pass on these skills in a one on one situation,
> 
> Finally to make sure that everyone understands how I designed and made the templates for the copy French balloon clock, here is a link to the complete photo shoot from design of templates to finished clock, which is the fisrt that I've made without a pediment and finial.
> 
> *http://www.routerforums.com/project-plans-how/14304-making-balloon-clock.html*


Congratulations on that final Photo shoot reference you have posted exactly the method I would use. Now will you please go back to your post 24 and correct the wording you have submitted; that was what I was trying to help you with at the time of my posting.

To support what you had submitted which I knew was incorrect (posting 24) I have taken you word for word and tried to complete the template that you were asking others to make, and here are the results. 

I do have regrets; that others simply accepted what was presented in the small photo shoot, without making the attempt to produce the template for themselves. It was only after I had made a comment regarding the content that you came up with the proper procedure. Yes it looked so easy and if you do not mind as the person teaching you how to produce it in the first place I had to draw your attention to the wrong wording that was presented.

Pics 1-6 are produced from the information you had presented on posting 24 not really what was in your mind, as you knew what to do in the first place, but what you had presented was wrong. So as a teacher I would have to give you 1 out of ten for the attempt. I would have been wrong to accept your presentation and give you full marks. So enough said about my teaching skills all I had in mind was that the next person to make this clock would have the correct procedure presented and you have with your photo shoot 

_Just as a matter of interest this posting was presented as an easy way to make templates, and had nothing to do with the shape I was presenting in the first place_

Tom
(Template Tom)[/quote]
Tom, please take a look at this annotated drawing of yours and tell me if you still have the same opinion. Perhaps at this point in time we should agree to disagree on our respective teaching methods.


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## Tom76 (Aug 28, 2009)

From Jim
Quote< Tom.. You are correct in that a good instructor doesn't try to teach the student how to make a particular template but rather how to apply template-making to accomplish a complex cut. What you've missed is that a good teacher *does* use a very simple example to teach the student the basic concepts such that the student can extrapolate what they've learned to apply it to more complex problems in their routing. 

All: Some profess to be the "grand master" of template construction and their use, unlike us beginners who are trying to learn a new concept. Being a "grand master", I cannot fathom how they can fail to follow Harry's photo shoot. Are they really that dense or have they let their self-aggrandizing overwhelm their efforts to teach that which they profess as their "invention"? >Quote

Jim 
This is the method I had taught Harry in the first place and how to apply the template to achieve what he was after at the time. My concern was when he produced the solution (posting 24) he had not considered fully what he had presented and I was only drawing his attention to it.

If you are making reference to me as being a "Grand Master" of template construction, I do not put myself in that category as I am still learning and introducing new routing skills even today. I have been fortunate to have discovered the potential of the use of the template guides to introduce new projects, skills that I had to teach myself or I would have been unable to complete the projects I was asked to do, namely refurbishing executive aircraft some 20 years ago. I had to inform Harry I had failed to follow his initial photo-shoot (posting 24) because what was written would not have been possible to produce the template to make the balloon clock. 

I would have been quite happy if his reply to my posting had simple been "Oops sorry about that, thanks Tom for drawing my attention to what I had written" So members ignore what I have posted and I will produce the photo shoot more clearly, which he certainly did, but unfortunately he left everyone to believe that what was presented was still correct and he had a go about my teaching skills, 

Tom
(Tempalete Tom)


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

"
I would have been quite happy if his reply to my posting had simple been "Oops sorry about that, thanks Tom for drawing my attention to what I had written" So members ignore what I have posted and I will produce the photo shoot more clearly, which he certainly did, but unfortunately he left everyone to believe that what was presented was still correct and he had a go about my teaching skills,"

Tom After my post above, #60, tell me what I said that isn't and wasn't correct. As I understand you, you reckon that I used the word "jig" instead of "template" which is totally incorrect on your part because I was describing how to make the TEMPLATE using the circle cutting JIG so when I said increase the diameter of the JIG by the diameter of the template guide, ie: 30mm, that is EXACTLY what I meant.
Do I understand you correctly and am expected to give you credit for each and everything that I learned from you? If so how far do we take this, should I thank my maths teacher each time that I manipulate a formula and my late friend Herman the German who taught me many things about woodworking, also Mr. Herbert who taught me technical drawing between 1945 and 1949.
Let me put this to rest once and for all, I have on numerous occasions on this forum and elsewhere given due credit to you for the enormous amount that I learnt about routing from you on a one to one basis, but I have also, in private and on the forum, criticised your teaching methods on this and several other forums. To keep things in perspective, I started using a router in 1974 and every one of the huge number of projects that I made, the router was used to some extent, but when I caught up with you in 2000 and we started to use each others sheds as our own, my routing skills increased dramatically, but remember, this was on a one on one basis. Please remember all the constructive criticism that I lavished on you in an effort to make your writings understandable to beginners. To slightly alter a phrase of yours, "use the same old methods and you will get the same old results" Just take the time Tom to think about that.


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## gav (Oct 12, 2009)

Harry, Tom, you both need to calm down. It must be hot in W.A. !
I can follow the logic of Harrys description of making the template, and although I have not made it(no circle cutter, and no desire), I can clearly see how it would work. 
Tom, you are wrong, you have proven it yourself by saying that Harry should have said 'template' instead of 'jig'. Perhaps you thought he was describing the making of the clock and not the making of the template. I'm also wondering if you are confusing the word 'waist' with 'waste' in harry's description. That would certainly explain why you can't follow his instruction.


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## Tom76 (Aug 28, 2009)

harrysin said:


> "
> I would have been quite happy if his reply to my posting had simple been "Oops sorry about that, thanks Tom for drawing my attention to what I had written" So members ignore what I have posted and I will produce the photo shoot more clearly, *which he certainly did,* but unfortunately he left everyone to believe that what was presented (Posting #24) was still correct and he had a go about my teaching skills,"
> 
> Tom After my post above, #60, tell me what I said that isn't and wasn't correct.
> ...


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Purely so that members checking in after a good sleep aren't disappointed, I'll add that if the first three photographs of post #24 are viewed as a whole and not in isolation, then I still think that the process is fairly obvious.
Gavin, believe me, in spite of the high temperature here I'm not the slightest hot and bothered even though today's posts were all squeezed in between manicuring the lawns. I'm completely laid back over this thread which I realise is rather like two school kids arguing which conker is the best, so long as members are happy with the way that I present complete projects from woe to go with photo shoots then, when my time comes, I'll die a happy man!


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## opelblues (Aug 22, 2008)

once again tom as told everbody to turn the light bulb on, but forgot to tell everybody where the light switch is


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

All I wanted to do was find out how to clean up (smooth out) a template while retaining it's dimensional integrity. I didn't want to start a war!

Enough you two. Both of you go back to your corners and take a "time out!"

Tom, we appreciate what you've accomplished but sometimes it is difficult to follow what you're trying to say. It does take some time to figure it out but eventually we do. Maybe if you spent less time promoting your videos and more time thinking through what you're saying, it would lead to less confusion.

Harry, maybe you're justified, maybe you're not, but I thought you were bigger than to get caught up in a cat fight.


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

"you don't tug on Superman's cape, you don't spit into the wind, you don't tug the mask off of the old lone ranger, and you don't mess around with Slim"...

J.C.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

TwoSkies57 said:


> "you don't tug on Superman's cape, you don't spit into the wind, you don't tug the mask off of the old lone ranger, and you don't mess around with Jim"...
> 
> J.C.


Who's Jim?


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

*S*..ops.. correction made..


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Harry

Mate
Now I'm lost I can't find number 24

========


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## Bob N (Oct 12, 2004)

allthunbs said:


> Who's Jim?


Isn't he that fella from Alaska? :jester:


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

It's on page #3, I didn't realise that you too like a drop or two of Mr. grants medicine!


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Harry

Show me

======


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

How about this Bob?

http://www.routerforums.com/guide-bushings-templates/19956-diary-router-use-3.html#post163960


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## Cochese (Jan 12, 2010)

So what happened to the OP?


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

Mark (the founder of Routerforums) has permanently banned the original poster from the community for repeated violation of forum rules. This was not associated with this thread.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

What a pity that he wasn't prepared to take advice that was repeatedly offered.


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

It's not as though you didn't try, Harry.. in every way I can think of, short of physical violence...


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## gav (Oct 12, 2009)

I don't suppose someone could tell me which rules he broke so to avoid other people repeating them ?
I presume it wasn't just because he was stubborn.


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## opelblues (Aug 22, 2008)

Act mature and respect the other members opinions, you are not permitted to attack their idea you must only post your thoughts and leave it at that. When you are posting something towards another member, ask yourself if this is something you would say face to face, also ask yourself if this is something you would like said to you. If you have an issue with a member, do not harass, target or insult that member, contact a moderator immediately!

http://www.routerforums.com/routerf...al-community-rules-guidelines.html#post106517


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

opelblues said:


> Act mature and respect the other members opinions, you are not permitted to attack their idea you must only post your thoughts and leave it at that. When you are posting something towards another member, ask yourself if this is something you would say face to face, also ask yourself if this is something you would like said to you. If you have an issue with a member, do not harass, target or insult that member, contact a moderator immediately!
> 
> http://www.routerforums.com/routerf...al-community-rules-guidelines.html#post106517


You may not criticize a person directly or indirectly. You may disagree with an idea, concept or method and support your opinions with verifiable statements. But, a person is always a valuable contributor and must be respected as such. It takes guts to participate in a forum like this. People will contribute for a variety of reasons. I'll stick my neck out in the hopes that someone else will correct me and support their argument and from that I will learn. I won't accept someone calling me an idiot. 

Other fora allow criticism of the individual and they become havens for cliques. Our clique is world-wide, race blind, creed blind, gender blind, colour blind and blind to any other method of describing a difference between people.


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

gav said:


> I don't suppose someone could tell me which rules he broke so to avoid other people repeating them ?
> I presume it wasn't just because he was stubborn.


Gav,

Mark has asked that we divert all queries to him.. just PM him. 

Fear not gav, it's not something you'd do by accident; it was very intentional. Mark warned him repeatedly to quit or he'd be banned. Maybe he didn't believe it would happen? Mark's far more tolerant than most!

His banning didn't have anything to do with this thread or his belief that handheld is the way to go.


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## CanuckGal (Nov 26, 2008)

I believe he was banned for improper use of the PM system:



> You are not permitted to solicit users through the RouterForums.com private messaging system.


As stated in the Global Community Rules.


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## Genel41 (Feb 6, 2013)

*Here are two pictures you might enjoy*

This nice looking Navy clock the first one was found on line by my nephew and then he got a old black Navy clock at a yard sale and ask if I could make a base for the one he found so I did my best to do what I can . So his is the one that is black clock and I used my own cherry wood . I only had 1 inch and I glued together to get a piece big enough . 
And the a made a shelf of a Steam train . My daughter in law came to me with a small sketch of a train shelf for our grandson .:yes2:and ask if I could make on something like it . I used 1/2 inch veneer plywood and I made wheels and the cowcatcher on the front out of walnut as well as the upper part of the smoke stack and the what would be the roof of the engineers cabin . I made all of the shelves 3 inches in depth.


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

Genel41 said:


> This nice looking Navy clock the first one was found on line by my nephew and then he got a old black Navy clock at a yard sale and ask if I could make a base for the one he found so I did my best to do what I can . So his is the one that is black clock and I used my own cherry wood . I only had 1 inch and I glued together to get a piece big enough .
> And the a made a shelf of a Steam train . My daughter in law came to me with a small sketch of a train shelf for our grandson .:yes2:and ask if I could make on something like it . I used 1/2 inch veneer plywood and I made wheels and the cowcatcher on the front out of walnut as well as the upper part of the smoke stack and the what would be the roof of the engineers cabin . I made all of the shelves 3 inches in depth.



I would never have thought of that.......[clock base]:yes4:

Another great example of the benefit of this forum.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Very clever Gene, you're justified in wagging your tail!


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