# Type Of Mortise Chisel To Square Slot



## Gaia (Feb 20, 2010)

Hi,
I'm into making interior, exterior house doors, I intend using a router with a straight cutter, aligned on the timber with 2 fences. What type of mortise chisel would be best to use to square up the ends of the mortise slot?
Sash mortise chisel, swan neck mortise chisel or standard mortise chisel? Internal doors are I think a standard 33mm thick, I'm thinking of using a straight cutter, I would pre drill half inch deep with a wood drill bit. On a 33mm thick door how wide should the mortise be, if say 12mm should I use a 12mm diameter drill to start off? Same query with the width of the mortise chisel.
Which type of wood drill bit should I use, flat wood bit, spur point bit or is there another type more suited to the job? 
Cheers.
Peter.


----------



## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Gaia said:


> Hi,
> I'm into making interior, exterior house doors, I intend using a router with a straight cutter, aligned on the timber with 2 fences. What type of mortise chisel would be best to use to square up the ends of the mortise slot?
> Sash mortise chisel, swan neck mortise chisel or standard mortise chisel? Internal doors are I think a standard 33mm thick, I'm thinking of using a straight cutter, I would pre drill half inch deep with a wood drill bit. On a 33mm thick door how wide should the mortise be, if say 12mm should I use a 12mm diameter drill to start off? Same query with the width of the mortise chisel.
> Which type of wood drill bit should I use, flat wood bit, spur point bit or is there another type more suited to the job?
> ...


 I would use a standard bevel edge chisel to square the corners and then use the mortise chisel to remove the waste at the bottom. If your mortices are deep and narrow you may not be able to get the swan neck style into the corner. 
Of course, one other alternative is to use your chisel to round the tenons to fit the mortice.
Unless you are using a plunge router with a plunge bit you will need a pilot hole. I would use a brad point or a Forstner. The flat style and bevel tipped metal style bits are more prone to wander.
Someone may come along with the proper ratio, but I would say between 1/3 and 1/2 of the total thickness for the tenons.


----------



## derek willis (Jan 21, 2009)

Round-off your tenons.


----------



## Gaia (Feb 20, 2010)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> I would use a standard bevel edge chisel to square the corners and then use the mortise chisel to remove the waste at the bottom. If your mortices are deep and narrow you may not be able to get the swan neck style into the corner.
> Of course, one other alternative is to use your chisel to round the tenons to fit the mortice.
> Unless you are using a plunge router with a plunge bit you will need a pilot hole. I would use a brad point or a Forstner. The flat style and bevel tipped metal style bits are more prone to wander.
> Someone may come along with the proper ratio, but I would say between 1/3 and 1/2 of the total thickness for the tenons.


Cheers, thanks for the advice.


----------



## Gaia (Feb 20, 2010)

derek willis said:


> Round-off your tenons.


OK thanks.


----------



## derek willis (Jan 21, 2009)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> I would use a standard bevel edge chisel to square the corners and then use the mortise chisel to remove the waste at the bottom. If your mortices are deep and narrow you may not be able to get the swan neck style into the corner.
> Of course, one other alternative is to use your chisel to round the tenons to fit the mortice.
> Unless you are using a plunge router with a plunge bit you will need a pilot hole. I would use a brad point or a Forstner. The flat style and bevel tipped metal style bits are more prone to wander.
> Someone may come along with the proper ratio, but I would say between 1/3 and 1/2 of the total thickness for the tenons.


Charles, I guess we both replied at the same time, as your post was not there when i posted.


----------



## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Peter,
Glad to help. One other option I didn't mention was to mortice both pieces and use a floating tenon. You must be using a jig to make your mortices so as long as you reference it to the same face, your mortices should line up perfectly. Lee Valley sells floating tenons, however, you can make them if you have a planer or can find material (plywood the right thickness would work very well) the right thickness.
Derek,
I was quite pleased that a woodworker of your caliber and experience saw the same solution as I did.


----------



## Gaia (Feb 20, 2010)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> Peter,
> Glad to help. One other option I didn't mention was to mortice both pieces and use a floating tenon. You must be using a jig to make your mortices so as long as you reference it to the same face, your mortices should line up perfectly. Lee Valley sells floating tenons, however, you can make them if you have a planer or can find material (plywood the right thickness would work very well) the right thickness.
> Derek,
> I was quite pleased that a woodworker of your caliber and experience saw the same solution as I did.


Thanks Charles,
Are there pros and cons using a floating tenon for house doors instead of M & T?
Why use a floating tenon instead of a M & T?
Cheers.


----------



## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Gaia said:


> Thanks Charles,
> Are there pros and cons using a floating tenon for house doors instead of M & T?
> Why use a floating tenon instead of a M & T?
> Cheers.


 I can't see that there would be much difference in holding power. Both require a good glue bond. The floating style would be a little easier since you would use a jig to locate the mortice and by registering the jig to the same face of the door each time would pretty much guarantee that both pieces would lie flush when mated. The regular mortice and tenon joint requires very accurate measuring and machining. 
If you decide to go floating style and you make your own tenons make sure to score some grooves (2-3 mm deep) in the faces to allow air and excess glue to escape from the mortice. The easiest way to make the tenons would be in a long strip and cut off pieces as you need them.


----------



## Gaia (Feb 20, 2010)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> I can't see that there would be much difference in holding power. Both require a good glue bond. The floating style would be a little easier since you would use a jig to locate the mortice and by registering the jig to the same face of the door each time would pretty much guarantee that both pieces would lie flush when mated. The regular mortice and tenon joint requires very accurate measuring and machining.
> If you decide to go floating style and you make your own tenons make sure to score some grooves (2-3 mm deep) in the faces to allow air and excess glue to escape from the mortice. The easiest way to make the tenons would be in a long strip and cut off pieces as you need them.


OK thanks. " If you decide to go floating style and you make your own tenons make sure to score some grooves (2-3 mm deep) in the faces to allow air and excess glue to escape from the mortice. " If I use the standard M & T would I groove in the faces of the tenons too?


----------



## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Gaia said:


> Internal doors are I think a standard 33mm thick


Hi Peter

I'll repeat myself on this one. *UK* "standard" fire rated interior doors (and *UK* Building Regs often require these for new builds, especially flats), both commercial and domestic, in the UK are _circa 44mm thick_ if they are FD30 standard (30 minute rating). 1 hour doors (FD60) are circa 54mm thick and are generally only used for exterior doors. There are thinner doors available, 1in, 1-1/4in and 1-1/2in (25, 32 and 38mm metric equivalents) but they are not the required standard for most new build/refurbishment work as they cannot meet the fire, heat insulation and acoustic insulation standards now in force. It is generally recommended that when replacing doors they are upgraded to the new standard, although the thinner doors are still made for retrofit work. That said my own house had the original 1-1/8in doors on the top floor when I moved in which was apparently perfectly acceptable in Victorian England!

44mm has the advantage of being able to contain a 6-10-6 (mm, 22mm thick in total) double glazing insert together with sunk beadings either side



Gaia said:


> Are there pros and cons using a floating tenon for house doors instead of M & T?
> Why use a floating tenon instead of a M & T?


The con is that you they are more susceptible to weathering failure in exposed locations (seen enough factory made failures to realise that one). Also the short grain of a loose tenon isn't as strong as a through tenon (a bit of trade bias there!). 
But.... if you don't have the facility to make accurate tenons then it is probably the best solution. Just ensure that your glue is exterior rated (e.g. D3 PVA or urea formaldehyde such as Cascamite/Extramite) and that the loose tenons are (ideally) the same species as the door components. That may mean sizing your mortises to use the same size cutter as readily available stock (buying in specially made inserts seems overkill when you can sand rectangular section stock or even shape the sides in the router table with bull nose cutters such as these - note the metric sizes, just like timber is sold in here in the UK). So if your timber merchant sells 16mm pine, use a 16mm cutter and shaped the tenon edges by sanding or with a cutter such as the Wealden T2523-1/2. Preferably rout the mortises using a plunge cutter, as faffing around pre-drilling for a cheap cutter when you've bought probably one of the best trade plunge routers out there (the DW625, European made) is totally counter productive, IMHO



Gaia said:


> " If you decide to go floating style and you make your own tenons make sure to score some grooves (2-3 mm deep) in the faces to allow air and excess glue to escape from the mortice. " If I use the standard M & T would I groove in the faces of the tenons too?


Errrr. It's a mortise and tenon joint, not a dowel joint. It needs to be tight-ish, but loose enough to slide in and out dry. The glue should be applied to the sides of the mortise, not the bottom as there is absolutely no strength in an end grain glueing (again, trade bias, with respect) and no joint ever needs to be flooded with glue - if you need grooves then there's probably too much glue or the fit is way too tight (a piston fit). I know that isn't everyone's experiance, but properly fitting joints simply don't need huge gobs of glue to hold and if you need to depend on the glue to fill gaps in joints then a weak joint is the inevitable result (not ideal for doors).

Regards

Phil


----------



## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Phil is correct. If you paint the glue onto each piece you wouldn't need to worry about the grooves. He is also correct about the fit. If you have to use force to dry fit it, it is too tight. You have to leave enough clearance for the glue. I am not familiar with the glues he mentioned but polyurethane glue like Gorilla Glue here would also be a choice for the exterior as it is waterproof. Kind of nasty to use, you might want to pre-finish before gluing if you go with that type.


----------



## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> I am not familiar with the glues he mentioned but polyurethane glue like Gorilla Glue here would also be a choice for the exterior as it is waterproof.


Hi Chuck

By way of explanation PVA is what we generally see here in the UK (where both I and the OP live) as opposed to the aliphatic resin you use in the USA. According to a glue chemist I've talked to they are fundamentally very similar in structure (they are, after all, nothing more than modified starches). D3 refers to the usage type over here; D2 is interior use and can be reversed by adding water, D3 is a cross-linked type for exterior use in sheltered enviroments (i.e. not really for use next to a sea wall in west Wales!). Urea formaldehyde glue is related to the glue used to build the Mosquite aircraft and plywood PT boats in WWII. It is classed as D4, i.e. completely waterproof. But then so are polyurethane glues, such as Gorrilla Glue. Personally I'm not too keen on PU glues, they have a tendency to foam out and mark the work unless you are exceptionally careful, although there are 300/330ml "sticks" now available with minimal foaming which can be used in a mastic/skeleton gun

Regards

Phil


----------



## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi

How about using the JessEm plunge bits, 1/4" is 6" long and the 1/2" is 10" long..

====


----------



## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

bobj3 said:


> How about using the JessEm plunge bits, 1/4" is 6" long and the 1/2" is 10" long..


Hmmmm, a 250mm long cutter in a router with 80mm plunge capacity and about 30mm held in the collet - leaves you with 140mm sticking out. You couldn't start a cut with it, but you could certainly finish one *with great care*. Could be useful, Bob. Who sells them? (noticed you didn't give your usual URLs this time)

Note to the OP: I already use long bits (5in/125mm) in a DW625. They can't be used to start a cut and they are advanced it 3 or 4mm stages (6 to 10mm in particle core doors) to depth a cut. Each pass ideally needs to be cleaned out witrh a vacuum cleaner to avoid overheating the cutter

Regards

Phil


----------



## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Phil

No need for a router they can be used in a power hand drill just fine. 

Item Dimensions
Weight:	4.96 Ounces
Length:	10 inches
Width:	1 inches
Height:	0.75 inches

http://www.amazon.com/JessEm-Replac...ref=sr_1_1?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1312400417&sr=1-1


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VtVGnxlBrc
===
=



Phil P said:


> Hmmmm, a 250mm long cutter in a router with 80mm plunge capacity and about 30mm held in the collet - leaves you with 140mm sticking out. You couldn't start a cut with it, but you could certainly finish one *with great care*. Could be useful, Bob. Who sells them? (noticed you didn't give your usual URLs this time)
> 
> Note to the OP: I already use long bits (5in/125mm) in a DW625. They can't be used to start a cut and they are advanced it 3 or 4mm stages (6 to 10mm in particle core doors) to depth a cut. Each pass ideally needs to be cleaned out witrh a vacuum cleaner to avoid overheating the cutter
> 
> ...


----------



## Gaia (Feb 20, 2010)

Phil P said:


> Hi Peter
> 
> I'll repeat myself on this one. *UK* "standard" fire rated interior doors (and *UK* Building Regs often require these for new builds, especially flats), both commercial and domestic, in the UK are _circa 44mm thick_ if they are FD30 standard (30 minute rating). 1 hour doors (FD60) are circa 54mm thick and are generally only used for exterior doors. There are thinner doors available, 1in, 1-1/4in and 1-1/2in (25, 32 and 38mm metric equivalents) but they are not the required standard for most new build/refurbishment work as they cannot meet the fire, heat insulation and acoustic insulation standards now in force. It is generally recommended that when replacing doors they are upgraded to the new standard, although the thinner doors are still made for retrofit work. That said my own house had the original 1-1/8in doors on the top floor when I moved in which was apparently perfectly acceptable in Victorian England!
> 
> ...


I certainly have come to the right place to learn about routing and wood working, thanks loads everyone! Know how is very welcome, when one doesn't...... know how 

Phil I'm a lot happier with the idea of using the the Wealden T2523-1/2 to round the tenons. Do you know if there are less expensive versions around? As regarding using plunge cutters for the mortise slots, someone refered me to a Trend set costing around £70, that is why I was hanging onto the idea of drilling a pilot hole.£70, that amount is quite a lot to me, just at the moment. I will get a set of those £17 you put me onto, ta. I expect will be not as good quality as the more expensive set but fine to get some experience, practicing on scrap wood. Thanks for pointing out about fire doors I will find out more about this.
Peter.


----------



## Gaia (Feb 20, 2010)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> Phil is correct. If you paint the glue onto each piece you wouldn't need to worry about the grooves. He is also correct about the fit. If you have to use force to dry fit it, it is too tight. You have to leave enough clearance for the glue. I am not familiar with the glues he mentioned but polyurethane glue like Gorilla Glue here would also be a choice for the exterior as it is waterproof. Kind of nasty to use, you might want to pre-finish before gluing if you go with that type.


Thanks again.


----------



## Gaia (Feb 20, 2010)

Phil P said:


> Hmmmm, a 250mm long cutter in a router with 80mm plunge capacity and about 30mm held in the collet - leaves you with 140mm sticking out. You couldn't start a cut with it, but you could certainly finish one *with great care*. Could be useful, Bob. Who sells them? (noticed you didn't give your usual URLs this time)
> 
> Note to the OP: I already use long bits (5in/125mm) in a DW625. They can't be used to start a cut and they are advanced it 3 or 4mm stages (6 to 10mm in particle core doors) to depth a cut. Each pass ideally needs to be cleaned out witrh a vacuum cleaner to avoid overheating the cutter
> 
> ...


Thanks again.


----------



## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Gaia said:


> I'm a lot happier with the idea of using the the Wealden T2523-1/2 to round the tenons. Do you know if there are less expensive versions around?


Hi Peter

Probably. The big beading cutter sells at around £42 (circa US $70) right now, which is quite a lot of money for a single cutter. I use one specifically for bull nosing on window boards because time really is money for me, but you could achieve the same effect by making two passes with a 1/4 round cutter such as a round-over or ovolo of the appropriate radius used in the router table. Low cost bits can be had for a few pounds. I wouldn't get too hung up on the radius matching exactly, though, after all once the joint has been made you'll never see it.



Gaia said:


> As regarding using plunge cutters for the mortise slots, someone refered me to a Trend set costing around £70, that is why I was hanging onto the idea of drilling a pilot hole. £70, that amount is quite a lot to me, just at the moment. I will get a set of those £17 you put me onto, ta. I expect will be not as good quality as the more expensive set but fine to get some experience


UK £70 (US $125) is a lot to anyone for a single task cutter set. The Faithful set I directed you to are good enough for me to use them for machining mason's mitre (invisible) joints on post-formed kitchen worktops. If I screw one of those up it can be £100 plus out of my own pocket. They're not quite as nice as a Trend cutter, but they are a mile better than something like a cheap B&Q or Screwfix cutter, and there are 4 cutters in the set - you can practice with the 50mm ones and use the 65mm one to give you the best cut with some extra depth when you cut your mortises. 

Happy mortising!

Regards

Phil


----------



## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

bobj3 said:


> No need for a router they can be used in a power hand drill just fine.


Thanks for that, Bob. We don't see all the JessEm range here, hence my question. have you any idea what type of steel is used, HSS or tool steel? Also, has this item been discontinued? Can't seem to find it anywhere (Amazon don't stock it any longer). The main downside for door making would seem to be its limit of 1-1/4in length of mortise. OK you can move the jig but that seems counterproductive in terms of accuracy, etc

Regards

Phil


----------



## Gaia (Feb 20, 2010)

Phil P said:


> Hi Peter
> 
> Probably. The big beading cutter sells at around £42 (circa US $70) right now, which is quite a lot of money for a single cutter. I use one specifically for bull nosing on window boards because time really is money for me, but you could achieve the same effect by making two passes with a 1/4 round cutter such as a round-over or ovolo of the appropriate radius used in the router table. Low cost bits can be had for a few pounds. I wouldn't get too hung up on the radius matching exactly, though, after all once the joint has been made you'll never see it.
> 
> ...


Spot on, " but you could achieve the same effect by making two passes with a 1/4 round cutter such as a round-over or ovolo of the appropriate radius used in the router table. Low cost bits can be had for a few pounds. I wouldn't get too hung up on the radius matching exactly, though, after all once the joint has been made you'll never see it. " I might have a couple of these in my Silverline set.
I've been having fun using the table saw to chop up old doors I got them out of skips to give me lengths of wood to practise on. I have some other nice sections of non door timber timber to use too. With doors I took care about any nails or pins, and used push sticks and blocks and other safety measures. ( dishwasher liquid does work a treat applied to wrap aroung gogs to prevent misting up! ) 

Now I've got the cutter out of the router I intend to practise on Sunday, doing some simple rebates, seems quite straighforward. 
I'm looking forward to having fun doing the floating tenons and mortices. I'm also interested in making wooden windows, Peter user name, istracpsboss, my friend on the forum has been very helpful, refered me to some joinery books that cover window construction. I also found a couple on my own before Peter refered me to the books he knew about.
I want to have a go at making replacement windows for my house, not commercially. I also found a large wooden window in a skip and took it home. Could see clearly how the cill was joined to the bottom of the frame. I took several pictures before I took to the dump. I hope is OK to post some pictures of it on Friday and ask your advice on clarifying a couple of construction points I have?
Becoming interested in door making, finishing, and starting to find out about wood working, characteristics of different species. I appreciate what an amazing resource timber is!
Once again, many thanks.
Peter.


----------



## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Peter,
I just got this email today from Lee Valley for a hinge mortising jig + router bit, plus a self centering bolt jig and lockset jig plus holesaws for about C$18. Seems like a smoking deal. The jigs aren't that hard to make but the bit and saws are worth that much.

Door Installation Tools - Lee Valley Tools

Thanks for the glue explanation Phil. I only use PU glues when water resistance is of primary importance. It is nasty stuff to use and if you don't at least pre-stain your wood you will get a blotched finish. Sometimes it is a necessary evil. I've tried urea formaldehyde glue (Resourcinol) but didn't have good luck with it weather wise. Titebond 3 is pretty good but I haven't subjected it to extreme weather yet. 
One other thing I have used for glue is fibre glass resin, the auto body repair stuff. It is totally waterproof, has 4 to 5 times the holding power of most wood glues, and will fill gaps, unlike most wood glues.


----------



## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Phil

You don't need to use the fixture a brass/steel guide or bearing will work just fine with them..I thing they are HSS steel but not 100% sure..

JessEm is big in the states and CD..

JessEm Tool Company Quality Router Tables, Router Lifts and Woodworking Tools.

JessEm Zip Slot Mortise Mill Loose Tenon Joinery System
08140 Replacement Mortising Bit 1/4"
08141 Replacement Mortising Bit 3/8"

======



Phil P said:


> Thanks for that, Bob. We don't see all the JessEm range here, hence my queston. have you any idea what type of steel is used, HSS or tool steel? Also, has this item been discontinued? Can't seem to find it anywhere (Amazon don't stock it any longer). The main downside for door making would seem to be its limit of 1-1/4in length of mortise. OK you can move the jig but that seems counterproductive in terms of accuracy, etc
> 
> Regards
> 
> Phil


----------



## Gaia (Feb 20, 2010)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> Peter,
> I just got this email today from Lee Valley for a hinge mortising jig + router bit, plus a self centering bolt jig and lockset jig plus holesaws for about C$18. Seems like a smoking deal. The jigs aren't that hard to make but the bit and saws are worth that much.
> 
> Door Installation Tools - Lee Valley Tools
> ...


Thanks Charles,
Just had a quick look, does seem a very good deal, will have a look to see whats available in UK. Interesting points about glue. I have a couple of cross cut, not felling but bucking saws, a 4ft and 5ft one. Used for scavenging wood for the wood burner
Cheers,
Peter.


----------



## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Gaia said:


> With doors I took care about any nails or pins


Yes, something to watch for. For some reason factory-made doors are full of small pins and staples  all of which can take nicks out of your cutters - one reason why I tend to resize such doors using a Festool saw and rail these days rather than a power planer. Sawblades last longer! 

BTW what type of windows are you thinking about making, casements or sashes?

Regards

Phil


----------



## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> I just got this email today from Lee Valley for a hinge mortising jig + router bit, plus a self centering bolt jig and lockset jig plus holesaws for about C$18. Seems like a smoking deal. The jigs aren't that hard to make but the bit and saws are worth that much.


Hi Charles

Yes, that's a pretty good deal. The problem about the barrel/cylinder locks that you use in Canade/USA is that they are rarely sold here _in the UK_ these days :fie:. About the only place I can recall using them was a hotel in Bradford (big French-owned place). 

For internal doors we tend to use tube latches like these in conjunction with a door handle set which incorporates a "blocker" if one-side locking is required (such as in bathrooms). They are installed using a couple of auger bits (too deep for spades, Forstners or brad points) and the face plate recess is chiselled out. Exterior doors (or lockable interior doors) are generally secured using a mortise lock, like these. They are available in deadlock (without handles) or latching styles. 5- or 6-lever are generally demanded by insurers these days as a minimum for exterior doors but many commercial and better quality domestic installations have gone over to using Euro-profile replaceable barrel locks which use this type of barrel mechanism. The barrels can be swapped out in a couple of minutes if keys are lost, tenants change, etc so the small addituional cost makes them attractive to many commercial organisations. I tend to fit anti-bumping, anti-snap barrels with anti-pick pins whenever possible. 

There's a good jig shown on the Trend web site for routing both the mortise and doing the side drillings for this type of lock, see here or here for a video (note, I tend to swing the door on the hinges, fit it to the casing/frame, then mortise the lock with the door hung - I don't recommend that for the faint hearted). That would also form the basis of a good home-made mortise jig IMHO. personally I use the Trend lock jigs for the purpose with a made-up jig for the side drillings and sometimes one for the striker plates, depending on how many doors I'm doing. The big drawbacks to the Trend lock jigs from the point of view of a home user is that they cost a lot of money, and in my trade I'm constantly adding steel lock templates (35+ and counting) at about £15.00 (US $ 25) a pop to handle yet another type of lock, although it's mainly the faceplates which require the templates as lock bodies seem to come in only 6 or 7 sizes (except for DDA locks)



Cherryville Chuck said:


> One other thing I have used for glue is fibre glass resin, the auto body repair stuff. It is totally waterproof, has 4 to 5 times the holding power of most wood glues, and will fill gaps, unlike most wood glues.


Sounds a bit like using West System epoxy. Probably a very similar resin, too

Regards

Phil


----------



## Gaia (Feb 20, 2010)

Phil P said:


> Yes, something to watch for. For some reason factory-made doors are full of small pins and staples  all of which can take nicks out of your blades - one reason why I tend to resize such doors using a Festool saw and rail these days rather than a power planer. Sawblades last longer!
> 
> BTW what type of windows are you thinking about making, casements or sashes?
> 
> ...


Just got in 22.32 will get back to you Friday evening, would be casement windows.


----------



## Gaia (Feb 20, 2010)

Phil P said:


> Yes, something to watch for. For some reason factory-made doors are full of small pins and staples  all of which can take nicks out of your cutters - one reason why I tend to resize such doors using a Festool saw and rail these days rather than a power planer. Sawblades last longer!
> 
> BTW what type of windows are you thinking about making, casements or sashes?
> 
> ...


Seems I've deleted the wooden windows folder. Will upload a sketch sometime over the weekend. A while back I got a value B&Q 1020W router for dong door hinges and stuff. Istracpsboss, before I bought it, told me it was actually a B&Q rebadged brand name router, so I got one
Regards,
Peter.


----------



## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Hi Phil,
The tube latch looked exactly like what is common here. The mortise locks were more common when I was young, the tube latch and knob have replaced for residential doors at least. The Euro barrel lock I haven't seen before.
The West System is probably a little better as it is made for wood. Either type, the wood will fail first so it becomes a moot point. Like PU glues, only when nothing else will work, it too is nasty to work with.


----------



## derek willis (Jan 21, 2009)

*locks*



Cherryville Chuck said:


> Hi Phil,
> The tube latch looked exactly like what is common here. The mortise locks were more common when I was young, the tube latch and knob have replaced for residential doors at least. The Euro barrel lock I haven't seen before.
> The West System is probably a little better as it is made for wood. Either type, the wood will fail first so it becomes a moot point. Like PU glues, only when nothing else will work, it too is nasty to work with.


Charles,
The euro cylinder lock is a wonderful device, in my opinion, never less that five levers, so good security, very neat in finish when set into handles or even into the door direct,Used on all Upvc products and alloy doors for neatness, appearance and security, together with the multi-locking systems, I am very surprised that you say they are not in use in the U.S.


----------



## Gaia (Feb 20, 2010)

Phil P said:


> Hi Peter
> 
> Probably. The big beading cutter sells at around £42 (circa US $70) right now, which is quite a lot of money for a single cutter. I use one specifically for bull nosing on window boards because time really is money for me, but you could achieve the same effect by making two passes with a 1/4 round cutter such as a round-over or ovolo of the appropriate radius used in the router table. Low cost bits can be had for a few pounds. I wouldn't get too hung up on the radius matching exactly, though, after all once the joint has been made you'll never see it.
> 
> ...


Am uploading a couple of sketches of how window cill was made and fitted to frame. Assume the internal window board is fitted in the same manner, suppose it would be possible to cut ears on the cill too if one wanted too. Forgot to draw in the drip groove under the cill. The frame was made with mortise and through tenons, quite rough and ready. The external sides of the frame had what I think are called weathering grooves machined into them. I assume the actual sash members are rebated and edges rounded over. I have found several sets of window and door cutters, think are called stick and cope cutters, might have got the name mixed up with something else. The frame was painted, don't know if that has any bearing on the jointing of the cill to the frame? As I would be staining my windows.Will upload some more sketches. I have the Triton bevel ripping guide which I can use to chamfer the cill. A lot of people are down on Triton but I think if one takes the time to carefully set up the saw in the saw table, one can get acceptable accurate results. In the cill sketch, A was actually quite a bit wider and B would be at a greater angle. In the frame sketch as you can see a slot was cut to accept the cill stub, if thats whats its called, the you know, that thingy bit on the side 
Cheers,
Peter.


----------



## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi

You are making a very easy job to hard, with a T & G router bit set it's a snap to get what you want..quick and easy.. 

3-Pc Tongue & Groove Cabinetmaking Set-Sommerfeld's Tools For Wood

==



Gaia said:


> Am uploading a couple of sketches of how window cill was made and fitted to frame. Assume the internal window board is fitted in the same manner, suppose it would be possible to cut ears on the cill too if one wanted too. Forgot to draw in the drip groove under the cill. The frame was made with mortise and through tenons, quite rough and ready. The external sides of the frame had what I think are called weathering grooves machined into them. I assume the actual sash members are rebated and edges rounded over. I have found several sets of window and door cutters, think are called stick and cope cutters, might have got the name mixed up with something else. The frame was painted, don't know if that has any bearing on the jointing of the cill to the frame? As I would be staining my windows.Will upload some more sketches. I have the Triton bevel ripping guide which I can use to chamfer the cill. A lot of people are down on Triton but I think if one takes the time to carefully set up the saw in the saw table, one can get acceptable accurate results. In the cill sketch, A was actually quite a bit wider and B would be at a greater angle. In the frame sketch as you can see a slot was cut to accept the cill stub, if thats whats its called, the you know, that thingy bit on the side
> Cheers,
> Peter.


----------



## Gaia (Feb 20, 2010)

bobj3 said:


> Hi
> 
> You are making a very easy job to hard, with a T & G router bit set it's a snap to get what you want..quick and easy..
> 
> ...


Thanks, the cill I seem to recollect, at maximum thickness was around 8cm.Sorry to ask a silly question, will these T & G cutter sets be able to handle this size of stock?
Cheers.


----------



## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi 

I'm sorry I don't speak Metric, how thick is that in fractions ?

The T & G sets I have will do up to 2 1/2" thick..all that's needed is a tall arbor so they can be stacked up..I do have one 1/2" arbor that will let me stack them to 4" tall but that is a shop made arbor..

======



Gaia said:


> Thanks, the cill I seem to recollect, at maximum thickness was around 80 cm.Sorry to ask a silly question, will these T & G cutter sets be able to handle this size of stock?
> Cheers.


----------



## jschaben (Jun 21, 2009)

Gaia said:


> Thanks, the cill I seem to recollect, at maximum thickness was around 80 cm.Sorry to ask a silly question, will these T & G cutter sets be able to handle this size of stock?
> Cheers.


80 *cm* thick?


----------



## Gaia (Feb 20, 2010)

bobj3 said:


> Hi
> 
> I'm sorry I don't speak Metric, how thick is that in fractions ?
> 
> ...


Hi Bob,
Try this, http://www.metric-conversions.org/length/millimeters-to-inches.htm
Regards,
Peter


----------



## Gaia (Feb 20, 2010)

jschaben said:


> 80 *cm* thick?


Was 8cm thick, my mistake if anything actually a little, thicker than 8cm, it was a garage window, made from pine. I can make a hardwood one much thinner. I can use a straight cutter to do the slot. not to sure yet, how I go about cutting the stub.
Cheers.


----------



## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi

" cutting the stub " = just do it on the table saw..and the "cill " also..  just five cuts on the table saw and you have it done,

=====



Gaia said:


> Yes, it is that size if anything actually, thicker, it was a garage window, made from pine. I can make a hardwood one much thinner. I can use a straight cutter to do the slot. not to sure yet, how I go about cutting the stub.
> Cheers.


----------



## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

80cm = 0.8m = 31.5" *thick*??? Wow!!


----------



## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

derek willis said:


> Charles,
> The euro cylinder lock is a wonderful device, in my opinion, never less that five levers, so good security, very neat in finish when set into handles or even into the door direct,Used on all Upvc products and alloy doors for neatness, appearance and security, together with the multi-locking systems, I am very surprised that you say they are not in use in the U.S.


Derek,
It does seem odd that they are not available here at all. I just checked over 30 pages on Home Hardware's website (Canada's largest chain) just to be sure.


----------



## Gaia (Feb 20, 2010)

BigJimAK said:


> 80cm = 0.8m = 31.5" *thick*??? Wow!!


Duh, sorry about that, of course 8cm...... thick


----------



## Gaia (Feb 20, 2010)

Gaia said:


> Yes, it is that size if anything actually, thicker, it was a garage window, made from pine. I can make a hardwood one much thinner. I can use a straight cutter to do the slot. not to sure yet, how I go about cutting the stub.
> Cheers.


Sorry my mistake of course, 8cm.


----------



## Gaia (Feb 20, 2010)

bobj3 said:


> Hi
> 
> I'm sorry I don't speak Metric, how thick is that in fractions ?
> 
> ...


Hi again Bob,
Regarding my earlier post I referred you to, regarding metric conversion. When you said you didn't talk metric, I thought you were having a little dig at me. Then I realised the cill thickness was actually 8cm not 80cm. I see now I misunderstood you, I hope haven't caused any offence.
Regards,
Peter.


----------



## Gaia (Feb 20, 2010)

bobj3 said:


> Hi
> 
> " cutting the stub " = just do it on the table saw..and the "cill " also..  just five cuts on the table saw and you have it done,
> 
> =====


OK thanks and I'd also do a water drip groove.

Regarding your earlier post, " The T & G sets I have will do up to 2 1/2" thick..all that's needed is a tall arbor so they can be stacked up..I do have one 1/2" arbor that will let me stack them to 4" tall but that is a shop made arbor. "

I did a search on arbor mounted cutters a few days ago, but only found a tiny bit of info regards them. I think they can be quite expensive and I don't have the money spare to buy any at the moment, I just bought the SCHEPPACH TIGER 2500 SHARPENER C/W WOODTURNERS KIT FOC for my woodcarving tools, http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SCHEPPACH...ies_Carpentry_Woodwork_ET&hash=item4aa88d944c though in a month or so and if work picks up, I think the spare will be available. So at the moment I have to practise working with the equipment at hand.
That said, those arbor mounted cutters sound quite versatile, sound a bit like stackable shaper cutters. Where can I learn more about them? I may well invest in some in the future.
Cheers.


----------



## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Hi Peter

Cill sections are normally machined using very large cutter blocks (like this one) on spindle moulders, like this one. Even then they require a machine with 3HP plus and a power feeder for safe use (the steel body ones weigh in at circa 5 kg/10 lbs). These can be machined by simply sawing atr the appropriate angle (normally 9°) and finishing the surfaves with a rebate plane. they are too big a section to rout. Personally I'd just buy-in machined section for cills from a merchants such as Magnet Joinery or Travis Perkins as they have the right gear to make them accurately



Gaia said:


> That said, those arbor mounted cutters sound quite versatile, sound a bit like stackable shaper cutters. Where can I learn more about them? I may well invest in some in the future.


Peter, I'd be wary about overloading the relatively small bearings on a router. It isn't a spindle moulder and it isn't designed to safely handle extremely long arbors or cutter sets. If you need really big stuff then the appropriate tool is a spindle moulder - a machine with bearings as big as the body of your router. Even then very few spindle moulders have the ability to safely hold stacked cutter sets.



Gaia said:


> not to sure yet, how I go about cutting the stub.


Hand saw and square, or if uou have one a bandsaw and chisel. The sections you are dealing with are normally a bit big for router cutters



Gaia said:


> OK thanks and I'd also do a water drip groove


That is simply a saw kerf about 5 to 8mm deep. Nothing fancy. If you are being pedantic a small coving bit will do the job, but it's not needed

Regards

Phil


----------



## Gaia (Feb 20, 2010)

Phil P said:


> Hi Peter
> 
> Cill sections are normally machined using very large cutter blocks (like this one) on spindle moulders, like this one. Even then they require a machine with 3HP plus and a power feeder for safe use (the steel body ones weigh in at circa 5 kg/10 lbs). These can be machined by simply sawing atr the appropriate angle (normally 9°) and finishing the surfaves with a rebate plane. they are too big a section to rout. Personally I'd just buy-in machined section for cills from a merchants such as Magnet Joinery or Travis Perkins as they have the right gear to make them accurately
> 
> ...


Hi Phil,
Sorry for delay, thanks for info, and especially the safety tips!
Cheers.


----------



## Gaia (Feb 20, 2010)

Phil P said:


> Hi Peter
> 
> Cill sections are normally machined using very large cutter blocks (like this one) on spindle moulders, like this one. Even then they require a machine with 3HP plus and a power feeder for safe use (the steel body ones weigh in at circa 5 kg/10 lbs). These can be machined by simply sawing atr the appropriate angle (normally 9°) and finishing the surfaves with a rebate plane. they are too big a section to rout. Personally I'd just buy-in machined section for cills from a merchants such as Magnet Joinery or Travis Perkins as they have the right gear to make them accurately
> 
> ...


Hi Phil,
" Personally I'd just buy-in machined section for cills from a merchants such as Magnet Joinery or Travis Perkins as they have the right gear to make them accurately. "
I've been looking into the characteristics of various hardwoods, some are more rot resistant than others, some lend themselves to detail carving more than others. I'm thinking of carving some simple leaves, vines. Not really thought it through or done enough research regards, suitable timber yet. I expect could only get a couple of species from Magnet and Travis?
Regards,
Pete.


----------



## Gaia (Feb 20, 2010)

bobj3 said:


> Hi
> 
> " cutting the stub " = just do it on the table saw..and the "cill " also..  just five cuts on the table saw and you have it done,
> 
> =====


Hi again Bob,
What software did you use for the diagram of the cill cuts? I have Office 2000 which has PowerPoint 2000 but I find it a bit hard to follow.
Peter.


----------



## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Gaia said:


> I expect could only get a couple of species from Magnet and Travis?


Hi Peter

Youi'll probably only get something like redwood deal (that's a better quality pine, actually) or one or two hardwoods, possibly African mahogany (sapele) or agba. You might be lucky enough to find someone who can supply English/European oak; for that it might be worth ringing round a few of the local joinery firms to see if anyone has any useable section. Generally carving isn't on the spec sheet for these items, so I doubt that anyone will supply a "carving timber"! The best hardwood for carving is probably lime, but it is extremely soft and not durable

Regards

Phil


----------



## Gaia (Feb 20, 2010)

Phil P said:


> Hi Peter
> 
> Youi'll probably only get something like redwood deal (that's a better quality pine, actually) or one or two hardwoods, possibly African mahogany (sapele) or agba. You might be lucky enough to find someone who can supply English/European oak; for that it might be worth ringing round a few of the local joinery firms to see if anyone has any useable section. Generally carving isn't on the spec sheet for these items, so I doubt that anyone will supply a "carving timber"! The best hardwood for carving is probably lime, but it is extremely soft and not durable
> 
> ...


Thanks Phil.


----------

