# 220v wiring for dust control



## Bob Blooms (Jun 13, 2009)

Just picked up a used Delta 50-850 dust control unit. It is wired for 220v and based on what I've read I don't want to run it at 110v. So the question is how to I bring a 200 line to the dust control unit. I've added 110v circuits, but never 220v lines. The motor has a three wire plug on it.


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## xplorx4 (Dec 1, 2008)

Greetings and welcome to the router forum. Bob if you are not at least some what familiar with the innerworkings of an electrical panel, I think you might find a good eledtrican to run the circut for you. I kGreetings and welcome to the router forum. Bob if you are not at least somewhat familiar with the inner workings of an electrical panel, I think you might find a good electrician to run the circuit for you. I know I can do it but I would be very reluctant to try and explain it in a forum.  I hope you can find one soon and get your unit up and running before too long,now I can do it but I would be very reluctant to try and explain it in a forum. I hope you can find one soon and get your unit up and running before to long,


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## levon (Sep 14, 2008)

hi Bob

if you feel comfortable wiring 110 im sure you can wire the 220. some here try to make it rocket science, it isnt. i wired my shop a/c to run on 220. i would advise you to do research on it.im sure you can handle it. but if you think you cant dont attempt it!


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Bob

I have 220 ,100 amp service in the shop but run the dust control system on 110 volt,, it only runs a very short time the norm... 
Some tools it's must have item to get them to run in the shop,,so to say ,save the 220 when you really need it,,
If you put your money into a remote control box you can turn it on only when you need it and not into 220 line to run the system..

The only thing I use the 220 volt is for the tools that need it like table saw.welders,5 hp compressor, etc..


But that's just my 2 cents ..


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Bob Blooms said:


> Just picked up a used Delta 50-850 dust control unit. It is wired for 220v and based on what I've read I don't want to run it at 110v. So the question is how to I bring a 200 line to the dust control unit. I've added 110v circuits, but never 220v lines. The motor has a three wire plug on it.


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## jschaben (Jun 21, 2009)

Hi Bob, Welcome to the forums,
Levon is right, 220 isn't exactly rocket science but the other poster was also right in that if you are not comfortable working inside a breaker box. Leave it to an electrician.
220 simply put, is two 110volt lines that are out of phase with each other. 
Running the wiring is not different than running a 110 line except it is larger, for a 30 amp device, which I suspect your DC is, you would likely need to run 12-3 w/ground. At the device, wire according to the label instructions, should be one on or near the motor. At the breaker box you need to locate two ADJACENT open circuits, attach the red and black wires to the output sides of the double breaker and attach the white wire to the neutral buss and the ground to the ground bus. In some areas both neutral and ground are attached to the same bus. Then install the breaker. 
I tried not to get to detailed so if you understand this you are probably good to go, if you didn't you may want to consider an electrician or a friend to do the final connections after you have run the wiring. 
Good Luck,


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## levon (Sep 14, 2008)

"attach the red and black wires to the output sides of the double breaker and attach the white wire to the neutral buss and the ground to the ground bus. In some areas both neutral and ground are attached to the same bus. Then install the breaker"

its just that simple, i was thinking of how i wired my a/c and thats exactly how i wired it. 
black to hot, red to hot, white to neutral, ground to ground. i wanted to make sure before i told you. anyone that cant explain it to you should not be wiring 220. 

but as i said before, if you feel you cant , dont attempt it!


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## Hamlin (Dec 25, 2005)

First, you need a proper size breaker for the tool, also make sure to get the correct size of receptacle for the plug. These are rated in amps. Pending on the length of run you'll need, this will determine the correct size of wire as well.


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## xplorx4 (Dec 1, 2008)

Let's take a second swing at this because folks have said things that are true "except" and it is the exceptions that can get you into trouble. Is the panel you will be running your service from the main panel of sub panel?  If main panel it is OK to run the neutral and ground to the same buss. However if it is a sub panel it is not OK to run them to the same buss, but the ground must go to the ground buss and neutral to the neutral buss. 

The wire size for a 30 amp would be 10/3 plus ground. This is from Table 310-16 of the NEC found on page 70A-71 of the NFPA-70 for one and two family dwellings but taken from the NEC. If the unit is 20 amps or less it is OK to use the 12/3 with ground. 

If you are going to run the wire and set the receptacle yourself a few things to remember, the wire going into the receptacle box must be secured with in 12" of the box. At the panel it must be secured with in 2' of the panel but must also be secured where it enters the panel with and approved clamping device (ask the guy at the box store) when securing the ground into the ground buss no more than 2 wires are permitted under a buss screw, however only one neutral wire is permitted per neutral bus that is code.

When you have run everything to the panel disconnect the main breaker. In newer houses it is sometimes located near the meter on older houses it is generally the large breaker at the top of the panel and will have some large number like 100 150 amps and so on. At his point it is save to install the new breaker and connect the wire to the proper buss or breaker. After securing all connections turn off the new breaker before turning on the main. Once the main is on reset the new breaker and if nothing happens that is good. Use an appropriate meter to check that the neutral and one hot wire have not been crossed. Check that the ground is in fact grounded properly in the device and in the main panel. Now plug in your new DC and make sawdust and tell us how it all went. 

I have made this as not rocket science as I can, and for Lavon and John and myself it is very straight forward but if you have never messed inside the panel, set breaker and the like just be careful man, It may not be rocket science but it will kill you if you don't do it right so please be careful.

And if you already know all this then have at it.


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## levon (Sep 14, 2008)

sorry, i stand corrected, if you dont secure the wire within 12" of the box and 2" of the panel your dc will not work. just teasing, it will work, but jerry was talking about code. i think jerry was an inspector.


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## Cassandra (Mar 15, 2006)

Hi Bob:

The Delta 50-850 (DeWALT ServiceNET - Official Online Store for DeWALT, Porter Cable, Delta, and Black and Decker Parts) is configurable for either 110V or 220V, as shown in the user manual at the link I provided.

One thing to note: they show the neutral being switched in the 110V circuit. Check your local electrical safety code -- some jurisdictions (such as Canada) do not allow switched neutrals. This is a safety issue.

Cassandra


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## xplorx4 (Dec 1, 2008)

Cassandra said:


> Hi Bob:
> 
> The Delta 50-850 (DeWALT ServiceNET - Official Online Store for DeWALT, Porter Cable, Delta, and Black and Decker Parts) is configurable for either 110V or 220V, as shown in the user manual at the link I provided.
> 
> ...


That is a good thing to note, and thank you for that information. While non of this is rocket science, it is according a given set of rules for safty of all involved.


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## jschaben (Jun 21, 2009)

Nice catch on me Jerry, 12-3 for 20amp. One of the advantages of having more than a few eyes looking here. I also didn't know it was code for the the neutral and ground not to be tied together in a sub-panel, I just do it because it makes sense to me.

Oh, Cassandra  Is switching neutrals really in the manual???? 
I didn't think anyone was allowed to do that anymore.


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

Cassandra,

Good catch. The double-pole switch is precisely what is needed to operate the DC on 240V service, however.

Suppliers used to use double-pole switches because it simplified the conversion from 120V to 240V. It's one of those "safe under normal conditions" issues but safety standards have fortunately been raised over the years.


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## Cassandra (Mar 15, 2006)

jschaben said:


> Nice catch on me Jerry, 12-3 for 20amp. One of the advantages of having more than a few eyes looking here. I also didn't know it was code for the the neutral and ground not to be tied together in a sub-panel, I just do it because it makes sense to me.
> 
> Oh, Cassandra  Is switching neutrals really in the manual????
> I didn't think anyone was allowed to do that anymore.


 Hi John:

Yes, a switching neutral is shown in the manual. Besides the safety issue, this causes concern in that to do the 110V wiring, one would need to remove the neutral connection from the switch. Has Delta made this possible in the arrangement of the switch?

Cassandra


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## Cassandra (Mar 15, 2006)

BigJimAK said:


> Cassandra,
> 
> Good catch. The double-pole switch is precisely what is needed to operate the DC on 240V service, however.
> 
> Suppliers used to use double-pole switches because it simplified the conversion from 120V to 240V. It's one of those "safe under normal conditions" issues but safety standards have fortunately been raised over the years.


 Hi Big Jim:

The double-pole switch is necessary (by code) for the 240V supply, as switches must disconnect all live wires to the device. The 120V supply has only one live, thus needs only a single pole.

Cassandra


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

"Running the wiring is not different than running a 110 line except it is larger,"

I can't agree with that statement, when you double the voltage the current (amps) is halved.

I=W/V 1HP=746watts therefore:

746/110=6.78 amps but 746/220=3.39 amps

I'm sure the purists will point out that Ohms law refers to DC, but the above is close enough to illustrate the point


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## jschaben (Jun 21, 2009)

harrysin said:


> "Running the wiring is not different than running a 110 line except it is larger,"
> 
> I can't agree with that statement, when you double the voltage the current (amps) is halved.
> 
> ...


Morning Harry, Who am I to dispute Ohms law :lol:. I was merely refering to the physical, 4 wire vs. 3 wire cable. Actually, you just pointed out one advantage to using 220 in that for a given amount of power, you can run a smaller guage 220 line than a comparable 110 line.


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

Cassandra said:


> Hi Big Jim:
> 
> The double-pole switch is necessary (by code) for the 240V supply, as switches must disconnect all live wires to the device. The 120V supply has only one live, thus needs only a single pole.
> 
> Cassandra


This made for an interesting discussion around the coffee pot this moring with some of my fellow EE's who are code-hounds. This is one of those little exceptions that I suspect led Jerry to initially defer on giving advice on this wiring over the net.

They pointed out to me that "appliances" that are designed to be plugged in are subject to different restrictions than those that are designed to be permanently integrated. (There was a divergence of position when you add a plug to a device intended to be hard-wired or hard-wire a device that comes with a plug). 

Appliances are not required to conforl strictly with the NEC or CEC, as they have their own standard. I went looking and found UL 61058 which is based upon IEC 61058-1, Edition 3.1 and has both CSA and UL endorsement. It is entitled "Switches for Appliances - Part 1: General Requirements". In it they show switches wired with and without the neutral switch (see page 48, Table 2, Class 7.1.13.1.3 at the below URL).


http://what110119.blog.dianyuan.com/u/54/1181361034.pdf

It is possible that another country-wide document, provincial document or local jurisdiction document may further restrict the use of a switched neutral . This is what makes "code requires..." so bloody complex!

I pasted the URL rather than pasting the document because as it is indicated on its cover, it is a copyrighted document expressly forbidden for distribution without permission.

With that in mind, the fallback is to look to see if it is stamped as meeting applicable standards (UL or CSA-us for use in the USA, CSA, CSA-ca or UL-ca in Canada).

Local jurisdictions have the power to override any and all national codes, so that would have to be checked out but it appears to me as if it is OK by Canadian code.

Even a fair-sized engineering company such as ours (~600 people) may have a divergence of position on code compliance. It's not unusual for a discussion to ensue on a particular unusual application, even within our local jurisdiction.

The answer to "how do I make it safe" doesn't always match code. For example, a properly sized jumper between the two neutral legs or wire-wrapping the neutrals together in the switch box would effectively make the neutral unswitched but whether or not it meeds code may depend upon a number of things including the size of the switch box, what's inside the box and how the switch was rated.

I don't blame Jerry for his reluctance. The devil is in the details. Granted, it can be "bubba-ed" and work OK for many years but one failure can be deadly. This is why the codes were written.


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## Hamlin (Dec 25, 2005)

Hi Harry,

I'm not going to dispute the OHM's law. I will point out that, the size of wire required depends completely on the amount of draw the tool/machine is going to be pulling. A 5hp motor will draw differently than one at 10hp. Meaning, you'll need to run a heavier gauge wire.

As has been suggested, it's always recommended to check your local codes.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

harrysin said:


> "Running the wiring is not different than running a 110 line except it is larger,"
> 
> I can't agree with that statement, when you double the voltage the current (amps) is halved.
> 
> ...


But, Harry, is wiring coded according to current, resistance or power?

I'm running 240V AC to my workshop for heat. I'm running a standard Romex 12/2. Is this adequate?

Allthunbs


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

Ron,

Wire is sized based on amperage, wire material (copper vs. aluminum), length and voltage.


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## billsue997 (Mar 10, 2009)

Hi Bob,..Read the name plate on your motor to determine the voltage, amps, watts, horsepower, and whether it is single, or three phase. If the motor is straight 220v, single phase you only need a two wire w/ ground cable. if you have something on 110v with the motor would be the only reason for a neutral (white) wire. The name plate should give you the full load amperage. The full, or continuous load amps (current) determines your wire size. The over current device (circuit breaker) can be sized higher than your running current to withstand your starting current which can be up to 300% of running amps. When grounding your motor with the bare conductor be sure and use a tapped hole, and threaded machine screw to terminate it. Proper grounding is a must. When you have the name plate info, perhaps you could google it, and get some pictures to the 1000 words.


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## TRN_Diesel (Feb 24, 2009)

My dust collection is a 2HP motor drawing 9.5 amps. I ran 12/2 wire on a dedicated circuit. To leave yourself some lee way I use a factor of 85%. 

12 gauage wire is designed for a 20 amp circuit. 85% capacity is 17 amps so I base this for calculating the current load on the circuit. In other words I addd up the draws on each machine ( PLate on machine tells you this) which will be connected to the circuit to base the total laod on the circuit.

It should be noted that when the machine starts up there is a spike in amperage and that is why you should leave a little wiggle room.

In my shop I put my Dust Collection on its own circuit.


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## xplorx4 (Dec 1, 2008)

Bob you have received some very good advice from some very knowledgeable people and most are my friends, but wire size, amps and voltage, breaker size, code or anything else we have talked about will not help you if you make a mistake. “All” and I mean “all” am saying is be safe. If you are not at ease in the panel and such, just get a friend or someone to be there and walk you through the procedure. 

I am not trying to undermine or go against anything anyone has said, my second post was going to be my first but I deleted it because I was not sure Bob was comfortable in the panel. It may be that there is only a 1% chance that a mistake would be made but that is all it takes. For my part I sometimes think anyone can do it and maybe that is the case, but I also know that too little knowledge is dangerous and so is "just enough" knowledge dangerous. The old saying that “familiarity breeds contempt” is too often the case for me. Sometimes I get too comfortable in the panel and think anyone can do this. 

We have a forum here called Shop Safety and I just want to keep that in mind. If you all want to blast me fine, If you all want to tell me I am over reacting fine and I might agree but I am reminded from my signature that I am “one decision away from stupid” so I will not delete this as I have nearly done three times now. 

Bob as I said before if your comfortable have at it, if not then get a friend or other person to walk you through it this first time.


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## Bob N (Oct 12, 2004)

I think Jerry has offered good advice on the safety issues involved. One can never be "TOO" safe in anything they do.


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## levon (Sep 14, 2008)

i agree with Bob, i think Jerry wants you to be as safe as possible and not get hurt. you have to appreciate him and his efforts. 

i also agree with Jerry that if you dont feel comfortable, let a friend or someone else help you. that way you can get it done right, safely and you wont have to pay an electrician. 

most projects are often like taking a trip. we can take different routes to get somewhere. in that vein, we all have our opinions and ways of doing things.

we may disagree on things, but stiil respect each other. Jerry, if i blasted you ,i apologize. i sure didnt mean it that way.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

My post was simply to point out that if you double the voltage, you half the number of amps and therefore can reduce the conductor size. This did not of course take into consideration local rules about which I know nothing. One point mentioned does however surprise me, mention of switching the neutral, this sounds VERY dangerous as the appliance is still live to earth when switched off.


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## jschaben (Jun 21, 2009)

I'm with Harry on the switched neutrals 
Those can definitely hurt you and maybe several other people.

Good example of being to familiar, one of my "what was I thinkin" deals.

I installed a sub panel once. 125A subpanel but I didn't need that much runnin around out there and got a good price on the panel. Anyway I was feeding it off a 50 Amp double from the main panel. Got it all wired up, with the breakers in the sub off. I always turn the breakers on sequentially so that if I have a problem I can isolate it immediately. Anyway, I flipped on the 50 Amp and it said NO... not just NO but H.... NO. Went back down and sure enough, I had tapped the neutral to a hot side. Dumb, yeah, simple to do yeah. And I been in and out of panels quite a bit over the years.

Good Luck,


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## Cassandra (Mar 15, 2006)

TRN_Diesel said:


> My dust collection is a 2HP motor drawing 9.5 amps. I ran 12/2 wire on a dedicated circuit. To leave yourself some lee way I use a factor of 85%.
> 
> 12 gauage wire is designed for a 20 amp circuit. 85% capacity is 17 amps so I base this for calculating the current load on the circuit. In other words I addd up the draws on each machine ( PLate on machine tells you this) which will be connected to the circuit to base the total laod on the circuit.
> 
> ...


Dan:

85 percent is a bit high. Code usually states 80 percent. For example, a 15 Amp breaker should only be loaded to a high of 12 Amps. There are exceptions to rules -- 80 percent can be overridden if one has nameplate data, as you have.

As for wiggle room: The CEC calculates it as follows: add the total current draw of all loads on the circuit, then add 1/4 of the largest motor load on that circuit. Protective device and conductors should be no less than this total.

Cassandra


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## Cassandra (Mar 15, 2006)

xplorx4 said:


> Bob you have received some very good advice from some very knowledgeable people and most are my friends, but wire size, amps and voltage, breaker size, code or anything else we have talked about will not help you if you make a mistake. “All” and I mean “all” am saying is be safe. If you are not at ease in the panel and such, just get a friend or someone to be there and walk you through the procedure.
> 
> I am not trying to undermine or go against anything anyone has said, my second post was going to be my first but I deleted it because I was not sure Bob was comfortable in the panel. It may be that there is only a 1% chance that a mistake would be made but that is all it takes. For my part I sometimes think anyone can do it and maybe that is the case, but I also know that too little knowledge is dangerous and so is "just enough" knowledge dangerous. The old saying that “familiarity breeds contempt” is too often the case for me. Sometimes I get too comfortable in the panel and think anyone can do this.
> 
> ...


 Agreed!

Better to be able to say "Oops!" than pushing up daisies.

Cassandra


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## Ghidrah (Oct 21, 2008)

I gotta go with Bob3j on this one, regardless of whether you use a remote for the vac the length of time it runs, (for what its used for) doesn't warrant 220.

I'd save the 220-240 for items that get stressed like the 3hp TS, band saw, molder and or planer.


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## TRN_Diesel (Feb 24, 2009)

I disagree Ron I have run my 2 HP DC on 220 and the motor runs nicely on 220. In the long run I think you will find the motor will run cooler and this equates into longer life for the bushings.

The other nice thing of 220 is it draws half the amps and is more efficient to run. Now for some of us who pay through the nose for electricity it means lower electrical costs.

North Amercia is always afraid to follow suit with what happens in Europe but I have to say 220 makes so much more sense and thats why most of Europe and Australia run on 220.


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## AlanZ (Aug 21, 2008)

Half the amps at twice the voltage is exactly the same power draw. There is no savings.

For example, on my 1.5HP Delta dust collector, the motor states that it draws 6 amps at 220v / 12 amps at 110 volts

6 amps x 220 volts = 1320 watts
12 amps x 110 volts = 1320 watts


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## TRN_Diesel (Feb 24, 2009)

AlanZ said:


> Half the amps at twice the voltage is exactly the same power draw. There is no savings.
> 
> For example, on my 1.5HP Delta dust collector, the motor states that it draws 6 amps at 220v / 12 amps at 110 volts
> 
> ...


Oooops right you are what was I thinking? lol Your math adds up.

But still 220 is th eway to go IMHHO


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## Cassandra (Mar 15, 2006)

Hi All:

ShopNotes Vol. 18 Issue 105, has a two-page article (pp 40 & 41) on the 120V vs 240V issue. 

I'm with Dan on this issue. If a motor load is over 1-1/2 HP, I would prefer putting it on 240V. This would result is less imbalance between the two lives coming into the house. This is imbalance in current and in voltage. Increased current (as in using the lower voltage) leads to increased voltage drop and thus lower voltage. Also, with half the current for running load, the starting current is also much lower -- less impact on other loads in the house.

One issue that I don't seem to have read here is power losses in the motor. There are several power losses in the motor. One of these is the resistance loss (the I squared R loss.) By using the higher voltage, the current is halved and the I2R loss is only a quarter. Thus, three-quarters of the resistance loss is removed and this reduces the running temperature of the motor.

Cassandra


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## Hamlin (Dec 25, 2005)

I've recently rewired my Grizzly Hybrid TS, per Grizzly's instructions, from 110v to 220v. What a big difference it made in how that saw ran. All I can say is, if I had to completely redo my power tools, 90% of my tools would be running on 220v instead of 110v. My current DC unit is a simple 110v unit, it dims the shop lights much worse than my TS does. As Dan said, 220v is the way to go.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Ken

It sounds like the circuit for the DC is over loaded, I would suggest one line from the panel to the outlet for the DC, then it should not dim the lights if you have a 100 amp in the panel box.. 
I use my DC system that way and I don't dim the lights or trip the breaker,,,in fact the plug for the DC is plugged into a out let bar on the wall ( 15 amp type) with other tools plugged into it..and they run at the same time with the DC...like the band saw,router, etc.

===



Hamlin said:


> I've recently rewired my Grizzly Hybrid TS, per Grizzly's instructions, from 110v to 220v. What a big difference it made in how that saw ran. All I can say is, if I had to completely redo my power tools, 90% of my tools would be running on 220v instead of 110v. My current DC unit is a simple 110v unit, it dims the shop lights much worse than my TS does. As Dan said, 220v is the way to go.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

"Australia run on 220."

Not quite right Dan, a few years back Western Australia standardised from 220volts to 240v


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Tell me Bj, are you for or against 220volts? A while back you mentioned that you still wouldn't be able to use our tools because you have 60Hz against out 50Hz, I completely forgot that virtually all equipment here clearly states "50/60Hz", sure, motors run a bit faster but what's wrong with that?


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Harry

I'm not against 220 volt,,but in the states we all use 110 volts the norm..it would be a night mare if had 220 on all the tools,,,it's like the metric thing,, to me..plus we drive on the right side of the road...:cray::dance3::dance3:


I know all your funny tools are 220 volts but that's all you have to work with..  it would be nice if you had both...

======





harrysin said:


> Tell me Bj, are you for or against 220volts? A while back you mentioned that you still wouldn't be able to use our tools because you have 60Hz against out 50Hz, I completely forgot that virtually all equipment here clearly states "50/60Hz", sure, motors run a bit faster but what's wrong with that?


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Bj, why would it be better if some of my tools were for 110v? As a matter of interest I do have a very heavy duty double wound 200 to 250volts in and 110 and 220volts out transformer, a legacy of my TV repair days when migrants from around the world came to sunny Western Australia, complete with appliances and TV . The black and white ones I converted to our sound system but when colour sets came in, that was asking the impossible, there is NO way to convert NTSC to PAL.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Harry

" Bj, why would it be better if some of my tools were for 110v?"

They would be cheaper to buy just for one thing,the tools in the states are 1/2 the price in the states, tell me you can get a new router KIT for a 100.oo bucks in AU..or a GOOD used 32" TV for 10.oo bucks in AU.. 

=====




harrysin said:


> Bj, why would it be better if some of my tools were for 110v? As a matter of interest I do have a very heavy duty double wound 200 to 250volts in and 110 and 220volts out transformer, a legacy of my TV repair days when migrants from around the world came to sunny Western Australia, complete with appliances and TV . The black and white ones I converted to our sound system but when colour sets came in, that was asking the impossible, there is NO way to convert NTSC to PAL.


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## TRN_Diesel (Feb 24, 2009)

harrysin said:


> "Australia run on 220."
> 
> Not quite right Dan, a few years back Western Australia standardised from 220volts to 240v


I lived in Darwin in 1995 for a year and thought it was 220 but I guess things change but my point was they are not on 110 volts for obvious reasons.

Like many others I converted my tablesaw from 110 to 220 volts and also went to a braided linked belt (red) and was amazed at how much more power I had and how my saw runs cooler. 

When it was on 110 volt the motor ran very warm but after working the saw ripping 8/4 Maple for over 30 mins it does not show any signs of over heating.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

bobj3 said:


> Hi Harry
> 
> I'm not against 220 volt,,but in the states we all use 110 volts the norm..it would be a night mare if had 220 on all the tools,,,it's like the metric thing,, to me..plus we drive on the right side of the road...:cray::dance3::dance3:
> 
> ...


The home market uses 110. Most of the professionals I've ever encountered in woodworking use =>240V. I don't thing I've ever seen a professional shop running 110V for principal tools. Some of the new shops setup for specialty markets use upwards of 600V.

BTW, historically, the right side of the road is the wrong side of the road. 

Allthunbs


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## Hamlin (Dec 25, 2005)

Hi Bj,

Single circuit it is on. It's just the initial startup that pulls all the power. The TS is on it's own circuit even when it was 110v. Now, it's 220v, it doesn't "pull" the lights down like it once did. It's the initial startup that's the big difference between the 2. Unless of course one wishes to goto 3phase 220v. Now this is something I'll let the pro's deal with.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Ken

Then to me it sounds like you are low on the amps. in the breaker panel, it's true the 220/240 will pull less amps..

You didn't say what you had in the sub.panel for amps..it sounds like 50 amp.drop..or less 

With two tools on the 220 (saw/vac.system) and breakers at 30 amps it's over loaded from the get go..

3 phz. would be nice but it's no no at most home shops..they just down have the lines for that type of drop..

======

=======



Hamlin said:


> Hi Bj,
> 
> Single circuit it is on. It's just the initial startup that pulls all the power. The TS is on it's own circuit even when it was 110v. Now, it's 220v, it doesn't "pull" the lights down like it once did. It's the initial startup that's the big difference between the 2. Unless of course one wishes to goto 3phase 220v. Now this is something I'll let the pro's deal with.


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## levon (Sep 14, 2008)

i have watched this thread closely and have seen not one drop of proof either way that one is better than the other. 

people that like 220 say my tool runs cooler on 220. in my opinion a tool designed to run on dual voltage will run equally well on either. in my humble opinion if you have a problem with your tool running to hot on 110 and it was designed to be dual voltage, your tool has major problems.

i have a tablesaw designed to run on dual voltage. mine doesnt overheat. it runs as designed. maybe if i had a super cheap version., i may have a problem with overheating.

i know that tools that were desingned to run on dual voltage had lots more engineering than any of us here are capable of.

before anyone gets upset, i include my self with you!

i think its a personal choice!


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## Hamlin (Dec 25, 2005)

DC unit is on a 15amp breaker, TS is on a 20amp I believe. The sub, I'd have to double check but, I think it's a 100amp. As I said before, I turn on the TS, hardly notice a flicker, turn on any 110v unit and watch the lights dim for the initial startup. If you watch closely in Norm Abrams shop, the lights have that slight flicker in them when he starts his TS.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Ken

I did not know they made a 15 amp breaker for a 220 v circuit ,I have seen two 15's pined up as a 30 amp breaker setup same for the 20 amp. breakers, most of the time the 15 amp breakers are set to one side for the light circuits and 20 amp breakers are setup for the 110 outlets.

Learn something new every day...


===========



Hamlin said:


> DC unit is on a 15amp breaker, TS is on a 20amp I believe. The sub, I'd have to double check but, I think it's a 100amp. As I said before, I turn on the TS, hardly notice a flicker, turn on any 110v unit and watch the lights dim for the initial startup. If you watch closely in Norm Abrams shop, the lights have that slight flicker in them when he starts his TS.


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## TRN_Diesel (Feb 24, 2009)

bobj3 said:


> Hi Ken
> 
> Then to me it sounds like you are low on the amps. in the breaker panel, it's true the 220/240 will pull less amps..
> 
> ...


I have a 30 amp breaker from the house to the garage sub-panel. My TS is 220 as is my DC. I start both up and have no problem with it tripping the breaker because of the lower amp draw. ON 220 my saw draws half the amps at 7.5 amps on 220 vs 15 amps on 110. The DC is 2 HP and draws 9.5 amps. 

Perhaps I would have an issue as you state if my saw was set up to work on 110 volt. BUt I guess we will never know because I have no intention of making it 110 anytime soon.

I think if people take the to understand what Cassandra wrote on her post:

"One issue that I don't seem to have read here is power losses in the motor. There are several power losses in the motor. One of these is the resistance loss (the I squared R loss.) By using the higher voltage, the current is halved and the I2R loss is only a quarter. Thus, three-quarters of the resistance loss is removed and this reduces the running temperature of the motor."

The light should come on and stay on and not flicker. lol BUt some peeople's mind may well be made up and they may get confused if presented with the facts.:sarcastic:


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Dan

I see what you are saying 
9.5 +15 amp for a 3 hp router = 24.5 amps, that's 5.5 amps left
for the lights and any other tool...that you kick on.. right ...

Do this just for kicks,, power up the TS then the DC then power up the router,and see what comes up..  I know it's not winter yet but kick on the heater/air filter system and have the lights at the same time.. just for kicks 

========


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## TRN_Diesel (Feb 24, 2009)

bobj3 said:


> Hi Dan
> 
> I see what you are saying
> 9.5 +15 amp for a 3 hp router = 24.5 amps, that's 5.5 amps left
> ...



Gee Bob how many hands you have to use a TS and router at the same time along with DC? :laugh:

My lights are on all the time and beleive me I have 48 4 foot T8 flourescents enclosed in 3 16 feet banks.

As for the heater is is a small draw and I should be ok. I guess when the snow falls and the mercury drops we will soon find out. 

BUt you have to show me how to multi task like that so I can get more done in a shorter period of time.:jester:


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Dan


multi tasking is easy when my son is the shop at the same time I am... and doing a project..

===========





TRN_Diesel said:


> Gee Bob how many hands you have to use a TS and router at the same time along with DC? :laugh:
> 
> My lights are on all the time and beleive me I have 48 4 foot T8 flourescents enclosed in 3 16 feet banks.
> 
> ...


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## levon (Sep 14, 2008)

TRN_Diesel said:


> Oooops right you are what was I thinking? lol Your math adds up.
> 
> But still 220 is th eway to go IMHHO


hi Dan,

dont we all get confused when presented with the facts , lol


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

When / If the lights flicker when you first turn on the saw (or any tool with a large induction motor) itoccurss due to the "inrush current". For a fraction of a second, as the magnetic fields are first being created within the motor, it can draw 5-6 times the nameplate current. 

This is why, back in the days of fuses, people would often put "slow-blow" fuses in circuits where large motors existed. Having a non slow-blow fuse does not necessarily mean it will trip but if you are having problems with it tripping within a fraction of a second after turning the motor on and you've checked that it isn't a short, it is often recommended that you replace it with a slow-blow fuse that will handle a spike in current for a short period of time (a few one-sixtieths of a second) yet still protect you if it goes on drawing that kind of power.

Current breakers are more "robust" for handling short-duration inrush currents than traditional fuses.

The inrush current is the reason I get a flicker when I first turn on my 5hp table saw (20 amps), even though the house has 200A service and I have a 100A sub-panel run into my garage. Once its up and running, even quickly feeding it 2" hard maple doesn't affect the lights (or the motor speed) in the least. 

This isn't a "chicken little" issue. As long as the flicker is short and not sustained and breakers don't trip, inrush isn't normally an issue. 

If you have problems starting a motor when running off of a generator, this is the reason why. Since the generator may be physically incapable of generating the inrush current, the motor may not start or may not come up to full speed. 

I was once out at a remote site helping a friend insulate his cabin. He had a 5kw generator and a cheap crapsman 240V 10A compressor with a universal motor. To get the motor running at all required blowing down the tank prior to starting and even then it only went to about half-speed. The owner made the concious decision to let it continue to run but, in the time it took to fill the tank the compressor motor got hotter than hades. He turned everything off when it was full and we let it cool way down before restarting. Fortunately little air was required (pneumatic stapling for insulation) so we only had to do this twice. By the end of the second run you could smell the insulation getting hot. He was willing to risk ruining the compressor and generator to get the job done. I don't know how well it worked when he got it home.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

You may be a routologist in training Jim, but you sure do know your electrics, you're spot on when you say that motor start up current is 5 to 6 times the running current.

Regarding the discussion concerning 110v against 220v, it reminds me of when a couple of us first introduced skis and plunge routing using female templates to this forum, most members were dead against these techniques, the leader of the pack being non other than my now friend Bj. Look at it now, skis are almost the norm and plunge routing with template guides is considered quite normal. So far as voltage is concerned, I'll wager that eventually the advantages of 220/230/volts and 3 phase will be realised. Never forget that the country that is first in normally ends up with the worst as others improve on the idea. Loyalty is fine, but try to keep open minds, this is a big world with clever people in all corners of it many thinking outside the square.


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## TRN_Diesel (Feb 24, 2009)

Well said Harry. Now if the USA can hop on board the metric system just imagine how easier it would make things.


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## levon (Sep 14, 2008)

hi Dan

we tried metric and it failed to catch on fortunately. lol
we have some leftovers in that we do now thanks to the metric system have to have 2 sets of tools.

but that is a product of everything made with cheap and child labor in other countries.


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## Hamlin (Dec 25, 2005)

Thank you BigJimAK, this is what I've been trying to explain.

Bj, my DC unit is a 110v unit NOT a 220v. As I've tried to say before. 110v units have a higher draw on the initial startup. More than what a 220v unit does. My lights are on their own circuit, just as each of my major tools are. There are certain "outlets" that are on their own circuits as well. These are mainly used for my routers, shop vac, circular saws. Difficult to overload or overtax a circuit when they are each on their own breakers. I only use 2 machines at a time max unless the air compressor kicks on. It's a 5hp 80 gal., when it kicks in, they dim just for a split second. Again, due to the initial startup.
At work, we run, 110v, 220v, 220v 3phase, and 430/480v. All with fuses that range from the size of a pencil lead up to a man's forearm. Everything has it's own breaker/circuits. Even there, at work, when we start up those big electric motors, the plants' lights will dim as well. Now, we run those motors to where they draw around the 200 - 250 amp range. The size or gauge of wiring varies widely, same goes for the size of motors we run. A 1/3hp up to 500+hp.


Levon, You won't "bog" down a 220v machine as easily as you will a 110v machine.


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## Hamlin (Dec 25, 2005)

harrysin said:


> You may be a routologist in training Jim, but you sure do know your electrics, you're spot on when you say that motor start up current is 5 to 6 times the running current.
> 
> Regarding the discussion concerning 110v against 220v, it reminds me of when a couple of us first introduced skis and plunge routing using female templates to this forum, most members were dead against these techniques, the leader of the pack being non other than my now friend Bj. Look at it now, skis are almost the norm and plunge routing with template guides is considered quite normal. So far as voltage is concerned, I'll wager that eventually the advantages of 220/230/volts and 3 phase will be realised. Never forget that the country that is first in normally ends up with the worst as others improve on the idea. Loyalty is fine, but try to keep open minds, this is a big world with clever people in all corners of it many thinking outside the square.



Hi Harry,

I've always been a big believer in 220v. The big problem here in the states is, as Bj pointed out. 220v 3 phase is found in major machine shops. Not for the home hobbiest.


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## TRN_Diesel (Feb 24, 2009)

Maybe I am missing something here Hamlin but 220 single phase is easily attained in the USA as well as Canada for home wood working shops. It is my understanding 3 phase is for large industrial shops and yes not for the hobbists.


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## AxlMyk (Jun 13, 2006)

Hey, they're running a new 120,000 volt system just up the road. I wonder if the neighbors would mind 100 foot power poles running to my house.
You're right Dan. As Hamlin stated, 3ph is for industry. It is no problem using 2ph in our shops.


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## Hamlin (Dec 25, 2005)

TRN_Diesel said:


> Maybe I am missing something here Hamlin but 220 single phase is easily attained in the USA as well as Canada for home wood working shops. It is my understanding 3 phase is for large industrial shops and yes not for the hobbists.



Hi Dan,

220v single phase IS readily available in the states. I'm not nor have I ever disputed that and I'm unsure has to how anyone thought I ever did.


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## levon (Sep 14, 2008)

hi Dan

220 single phase is available here. its just that its not needed for every tool. 

my ac is on 220. my ts could be. but i have a ts that works well on either.

we here in the U. S. dont need to run all of our toolls on 220. just the ones that need it.

it seems in some countries even routers run on 220. glad i dont have to!


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## levon (Sep 14, 2008)

Levon, You won't "bog" down a 220v machine as easily as you will a 110v machine.


hi Ken, i guess im lucky, i have no machines that get bogged down, if i did, i might change over.


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## gregW (Mar 14, 2007)

levon said:


> Levon, You won't "bog" down a 220v machine as easily as you will a 110v machine.
> 
> 
> hi Ken, i guess im lucky, i have no machines that get bogged down, if i did, i might change over.



from time to time I bog down EVERY power tool I own 

One of these days I will have a table saw that runs on 220v but even then I'm sure I will still manage to bog it down :happy:


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## levon (Sep 14, 2008)

hi Greg

mine runs on either but i have it on 110. sometimes people try to feed material too fast and have problems. sorry youre having problems Greg.


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## TRN_Diesel (Feb 24, 2009)

Hamlin said:


> Hi Dan,
> 
> 220v single phase IS readily available in the states. I'm not nor have I ever disputed that and I'm unsure has to how anyone thought I ever did.


Sorry Hamlin I misread your post I read it as 220 1 phase and not 3 phase as you stated in your post. These eyes are starting to squint maybe its time to get galsses.

PLease accept my appolgies.


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

What is typically run to the home are two runs of 120VAC RMS (measured to ground) that are 180 degrees out of phase. When you measure the voltage between the legs that are 180 degrees out of phase, you get 240 VAC, which is the standard for electric ranges and dryers.

Commercial installations, which typicall need more power are typically run 120VAC RMS (measured to ground) that are 120 degrees out of phase. When you measure the voltage between the legs you get 120 times the square root of 3, which is 208VAC. When you use this with a three phase motor, it is called 208V 3-phase, since the voltage between any two legs is 208V. How does the voltage measured across two legs of 120VAC equal 208V? It's in the mathematics of vector algebra and trigonometry and is beyond the scope of this post. 

Selecting their voltages this way permits the building to use any one of the legs and (measured to ground) run their 120VAC lights, tools and appliances. When you move to 480VAC 3-phase, they chose that voltage and the voltage for any one leg (measured to ground) is 277VAC. 

In the industrial facilities I design (oil production and treatment facilities), 120VAC is used only where necessary and 240VAC is unheard of. Virtually everything is 480VAC 3-phase or 277VAC single phase, even lights.

Whether we have 120VAC single phase (as we do in America), 220VAC (as the "unenlightened do <g>), or even if we used 480 or 2160VAC it would all work for us. The difference between them is a balance between the smaller / lighter wire you can use at higher voltages and the shock hazard at higher voltages.

One word of warning to anyone rewiring a circuit from 120V to 240VAC: 240VAC has killed more people in America than any other voltage, partially because it is so common and because 120VAC usually just gives you a *jolt*. Higher voltages are respected and 120V doesn't often kill. Many treat 240VAC with the same cavalier attitude as they do 120V. That can be a deadly mistake.

Again, no "chicken little"; just respect it, be sure what you are doing and be careful.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

You know what guys, some of the posts on this thread remind me of when we arrived in Australia from England in 1964, a high percentage of houses had septic tank systems even when deep sewerage had been installed in the suburb, when asked why they hadn't connected, the usual answer was "what was good enough for my father is good enough for me" I see a similarity here! Eventually, to make everyone connect, people's rates went up to that paid by those connected to the deep sewerage system.

Some people reckon that Australia is a backward country, yet most houses have access to three phase power. We had it connected about six years ago when we replaced the air conditioner with a five horse power one, that was before inverter units became common place, these don't have that enormous current draw at start up and even a five hp one can run on single phase.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

harrysin said:


> You know what guys, some of the posts on this thread remind me of when we arrived in Australia from England in 1964, a high percentage of houses had septic tank systems even when deep sewerage had been installed in the suburb, when asked why they hadn't connected, the usual answer was "what was good enough for my father is good enough for me" I see a similarity here! Eventually, to make everyone connect, people's rates went up to that paid by those connected to the deep sewerage system.
> 
> Some people reckon that Australia is a backward country, yet most houses have access to three phase power. We had it connected about six years ago when we replaced the air conditioner with a five horse power one, that was before inverter units became common place, these don't have that enormous current draw at start up and even a five hp one can run on single phase.


Hi Harry:

I'm not going to agree with that one. My personal philosophy is to embrace change when it proves itself to be worthy. Unfortunately, with the prevalence of spin doctors and word massagers it has become difficult to separate the chaff from the wheat. Look at the large number of supposedly wealthy people who have been "relieved" of their retirement by smooth-talking individuals. I refer to the recent spate of ponsi schemes. If people who can afford the means to do their research can be so easily separated from their wealth, I'm doubly careful and won't change a proven method until the proof is irrefutable.

I'm looking at installing a 240V heater in the workshop and will do so only with the specific direction of my local electrician. 

However, this thread has proven to me to "protect my butt" and do the job properly. Thanks all for your candor.

Allthunbs


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## Cassandra (Mar 15, 2006)

harrysin said:


> You know what guys, some of the posts on this thread remind me of when we arrived in Australia from England in 1964, a high percentage of houses had septic tank systems even when deep sewerage had been installed in the suburb, when asked why they hadn't connected, the usual answer was "what was good enough for my father is good enough for me" I see a similarity here! Eventually, to make everyone connect, people's rates went up to that paid by those connected to the deep sewerage system.
> 
> Some people reckon that Australia is a backward country, yet most houses have access to three phase power. We had it connected about six years ago when we replaced the air conditioner with a five horse power one, that was before inverter units became common place, these don't have that enormous current draw at start up and even a five hp one can run on single phase.


There are other idioms that come to mind:

"If it ain't broke , don't fix it." Many consider 120V not broken.

"A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush." Most North American homes are wired primarily for 120V ("a bird in the hand"), so converting tools to 240V is the "two in the bush."



Three phase power to houses? Maybe it's time for me to move to Australia.

Cassandra


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

"My personal philosophy is to embrace change when it proves itself to be worthy"

Ron, Ron, how in the world can you prove something is better (or worse) if you don't try it? Especially so when you don't trust so called spin doctors. Surely you of all people don't trust magazine reviews when said magazines carry advertising for the particular brand.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Cassandra said:


> There are other idioms that come to mind:
> 
> "If it ain't broke , don't fix it." Many consider 120V not broken.
> 
> ...


"If it ain't broke , don't fix it." Having spent a lifetime in the consumer electronics service industry, actively promoting the concept of regular maintenance for any equipment containing moving parts, ie: video and audio tape recorders, turntables etc. I can hardly agree with you on this point Cassandra.
On your second point, I've never mentioned that when going to 220v one should toss out the non adjustable 110v tools, only that existing dual voltage tools should change to 220v and when making new purchases, make them 220v.

How dull would the forum be without the occasional "in depth" discussion?


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

Harry,

I think that the biggest challenge to many people when you're talking about moving many things to 240VAC here is that it requires two breaker slots in the breaker panel. I understand that in theory you could power more outlets off of one 240V breaker but the way the NEC is written doesn't encourage that, unless people were to re-wire like many industrial shops, with a sizable bus and a fused local disconnect at every tool. There are restrictions on that, too.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

harrysin said:


> "My personal philosophy is to embrace change when it proves itself to be worthy"
> 
> Ron, Ron, how in the world can you prove something is better (or worse) if you don't try it? Especially so when you don't trust so called spin doctors. Surely you of all people don't trust magazine reviews when said magazines carry advertising for the particular brand.


Look at how long it took me to try skis, and I'm a curious ... I only said I'm not gonna do anything without my local licensed, documented, proven, reputed electrician's certification of safe usefulness, 240V or otherwise.

:nono:


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

I'm not sure that I understand your answer Ron, but if it's a question of safety, I can assure you that the number of electrocutions each year here and in the UK are infinitesimal and I would love to see comparative figures between our two countries taken on a per capita basis.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

harrysin said:


> I'm not sure that I understand your answer Ron, but if it's a question of safety, I can assure you that the number of electrocutions each year here and in the UK are infinitesimal and I would love to see comparative figures between our two countries taken on a per capita basis.


Boiled down --> let the electrician do it!

Allthunbs


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Ron

This off the point a bit, but talking about the ski jigs can you post a picture of yours..PLEASE 

I did check your gallery and I could not find it..

=======



allthunbs said:


> Look at how long it took me to try skis, and I'm a curious ... I only said I'm not gonna do anything without my local licensed, documented, proven, reputed electrician's certification of safe usefulness, 240V or otherwise.
> 
> :nono:


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

bobj3 said:


> Hi Ron
> 
> This off the point a bit, but talking about the ski jigs can you post a picture of yours..PLEASE
> 
> ...


All of my essays have been removed!


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Ron

Ok ,can you add this one please 

===



allthunbs said:


> All of my essays have been removed!


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## cbsjoez1935 (Mar 14, 2007)

Wow!
After going through all these posts, I think the main thought was he was not sure of how to do it. My rule of thumb has been to use 12 gauge for 110/20 amps and I might be overkill here, but feel it is safer to use 10/3 for 220/30 amps. All this would depend on the draw of the instrument plugged in. New clothes dryers here in my area, now require a 4 prong connector (no more hard wire, since you could not make a quick disconnect in case of fire). Bigger is maybe better and definitely safer. I would strongly suggest that the wire could be run between the outlet box and the breaker box, while not connecting anything to either end. Then bring in a licensed electrician who is familiar with the local town codes, to make the connections. Your homeowner's insurance will be covered in this manner.
Joe Z.


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## Cassandra (Mar 15, 2006)

cbsjoez1935 said:


> Wow!
> After going through all these posts, I think the main thought was he was not sure of how to do it. My rule of thumb has been to use 12 gauge for 110/20 amps and I might be overkill here, but feel it is safer to use 10/3 for 220/30 amps. All this would depend on the draw of the instrument plugged in. New clothes dryers here in my area, now require a 4 prong connector (no more hard wire, since you could not make a quick disconnect in case of fire). Bigger is maybe better and definitely safer. I would strongly suggest that the wire could be run between the outlet box and the breaker box, while not connecting anything to either end. Then bring in a licensed electrician who is familiar with the local town codes, to make the connections. Your homeowner's insurance will be covered in this manner.
> Joe Z.


 Hi Joe:

I'm away from my office, so will go on memory for now. 

12 Gauge in the NEC and the CEC is good for 20 amps for runs up to 50 ft. Beyond 50 ft, one should do a voltage drop calculation to see whether to upsize the conductor.

10 Gauge is good for 30 amps for runs up to 50 ft. Again, voltage drop calculations are called for beyond 50 ft. 

Some designers will use 75 ft, others use 100 ft, but I prefer to err on the side of safety. If I can't do the calculations (as now), I'll do the 50 ft limit.

Cassandra


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

Another caveat on running power is the 80% rule. What Cassandra says is 100% true for breaker sizing but the NEC (and CEC also Cassandra?) say that you should not load a breaker past 80% of its capacity. Therefore you should not run a 15A router on a 15A breaker. The max for a 15A breaker is 15A * 80% = 12A. For 20A this becomes 16A.

If this electrical stuff seems confusing, it's because it is. What we are giving are "rules of thumb", greatly simplified from all of the exceptions and exclusions. Also, as Jerry can attest, answering a seemingly simple question can require cross-referencing different sections of the NEC, augmenting them with still more. That's why many are hesitant to answer questions over the net. Selecting the cable gets into details such as whether the insulation is XHHW, THHW or any of the other insulations, ambient temperatures, proximity to other cables, what voltage in those cables, area classification, vapors in the air,... the list goes on and on.


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## Cassandra (Mar 15, 2006)

BigJimAK said:


> Another caveat on running power is the 80% rule. What Cassandra says is 100% true for breaker sizing but the NEC (and CEC also Cassandra?) say that you should not load a breaker past 80% of its capacity. Therefore you should not run a 15A router on a 15A breaker. The max for a 15A breaker is 15A * 80% = 12A. For 20A this becomes 16A.


 Hi Jim and All:

Per the CEC, how much you are allowed to load the circuit breaker is dependent on various factors. Generally, if the circuit breaker is labeled for "continuous operation at 80 percent of the ampere rating", then yes, one needs to derate the breaker capacity and limit the maximum continuous draw to 80 percent. (e.g. Limit of 12A for a 15A breaker.) Similarly, if the circuit breaker is labeled for "continuous operation at 100 percent of the ampere rating", then one uses the rated current (15A for a 15A breaker.) [See Rule 8-104, Sub-rules 4 and 5 in the CEC.]

Of course, there are exceptions. For example the CEC limits the loading of the circuit breaker to 80 percent for lighting circuits. There is no 100 percent here.

One thing I am not certain on, but believe to be true in the CEC, is that if the circuit breaker is not labeled for continuous operation at 100 percent, then one must use the 80 percent rule.

Cassandra


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## levon (Sep 14, 2008)

i have a question for all the engineers and inspectors, what is the major cause of electrical fires?


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## Cassandra (Mar 15, 2006)

levon said:


> i have a question for all the engineers and inspectors, what is the major cause of electrical fires?


 Klutz's who shouldn't touch electrical wiring and devices.

Kliuges that shouldn't be made and are a violation of the code.

Arcs on circuit closing and opening. For example, arcs within switches and outlets.

Probably the number one is incorrectly sized electrical component. For example, a breaker keeps tripping. So the klutz removes the 15A breaker and puts in a 20A breaker. The wire overheats. The wood studs that the wire passes through dries out. The continued heating hits the flash point of the dry lumber and poof, fire.

A titbit: What are circuit breakers protecting?

If you said yourself: wrong.
If you said what gets plugged in: wrong.
The correct answer is the breaker protects the wiring devices. This includes conductors, insulators, junction boxes, outlet boxes, switches, and such. 

The alarm clock or clock radio by your bed isn't protected by the cricuit breaker. it's protected by an internal fuse. For example, an alarm clock might need protecting at 1/2A. The 15A breaker won't help much if the alarm clock fails.

Cassandra


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Cassandra said:


> Hi Joe:
> 
> I'm away from my office, so will go on memory for now.
> 
> ...


Hi Cassandra:

So, if I have a 36ft long house, add 12' to the workshop then I'll need...

1 x 12ga on a 20A breaker for vacuum/dust collector shares conduit with below
1 x 14ga on a 15A breaker for lights - fluorescent, a few incadescent
1 x 12ga on a 20A breaker for router/other power tools
1 x 10ga on a 30A breaker for 240V ceiling heater

4 circuits run through 3 conduits 12' underground to the workshop, PVC flexible conduit both ends vented inside.

How do I calculate the voltage loss on the wiring beyond 50ft. I expect I'll have about a 56' run from the breaker panel to plug or switch and >6 ft to the tool. Does this sound reasonable?


Allthunbs


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## levon (Sep 14, 2008)

ok, i saw nothing mentioned about klutzs and kluiges or whatever. 

there seemed to be a lot mentioned about extenxion cords switches plugs and receptacles and rodents.

i wonder how many fires are caused by people shortcircuiting wires with staples?
i know the breaker should trip, but ive replaced bad breakers several times and bought one that was bad from the supply house.

im just asking does this happen? as a person wanting to know.

i just wanted to know for my own information, i am not being negatve.


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

A few years ago I heard that the main cause of electrical fires was extension cords, either run under rugs, getting under the edge of (old) TV's and pets chewing on the cord. Also not an insignificant cause of pet deaths.

How do you punish your pet for that? Tell 'em they're *grounded*?


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

Cassandra said:


> Probably the number one is incorrectly sized electrical component. For example, a breaker keeps tripping. So the klutz removes the 15A breaker and puts in a 20A breaker. The wire overheats. The wood studs that the wire passes through dries out. The continued heating hits the flash point of the dry lumber and poof, fire.
> 
> Cassandra


Either that or replacing a old-style automotive fuse with a .22 caliber bullet! :-D

Hey, I'm in a smart-a**ed mood tonight! Maybe it's because I'm off work in 30 minutes, going home to mount my fence to my new router table. Then it's alignment and checkout time. I can smell sawdust and see the firewood pile already! <g>


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## Cassandra (Mar 15, 2006)

allthunbs said:


> Hi Cassandra:
> 
> So, if I have a 36ft long house, add 12' to the workshop then I'll need...
> 
> ...


 Hi Allthunbs and others:

The attached PDF file contains the Voltage Drop Table and the instructions on using the table data. This table is for 3-phase. One needs to find a suitable table of factors for single-phase wiring, such as http://www.liteco.ca/Portals/_Rainbow/images/default/Tools/volt_drop.htm The same technique applies, just different factors.

I provide the information as a courtesy, but will not assume any liability in its use. If one doesn't know enough about electricity, then one shouldn't try to use this information.

Cassandra


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## Cassandra (Mar 15, 2006)

A couple of voltage drop calculators online:

Voltage Drop Calculator 

Voltage Drop Calculator JavaScript 

Although these are for USA NEC-based calculations, they should also apply to Canada.

Cassandra


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## TRN_Diesel (Feb 24, 2009)

This thread has gotten away some what form the original thread but still a very good discussion has emerged with varying opinions. 

Perhaps with my experience I can shed some light on what causes electrical fires since I am the guy putting them out when they start a fire.

Frayed cords that have been tugged on and become separated or worn can become a hazard especially when they have been overload. Those octopuses people use should be outlawed. Lots of time people use smaller gauge extension cords and then throw 6 devices on it and eventually overload the rated amperage of the cord itself and it heats up the insulation and ignites.

Other times renovations have caused fires due to a nail piercing hidden wires behind drywall. I have seen instances where they have notched the stud to feed a wire through between the drywall and the stud and failed to put a protector plate on and then someone comes along later and puts a nail into the stud not knowing the wire is not protected. 

When the wires overheat they heat adjacent combustible materials and if I may Cassandra the correct term here is Ignition Temperature. Ignition temperature in simpole terms is the temperature at which something catches fire and burns on its own independent of other sources of ignition.

Flash point refers to liquids either combustible or flammable. These liquids are differentiated by the flash point below (flammable liquid) or above (combustible liquid) 100°F . Flash point is defined as " lowest temperature at which it can form an ignitable mixture in air. At this temperature the vapour may cease to burn when the source of ignition is removed. A slightly higher temperature, the fire point, is defined as the temperature at which the vapour continues to burn after being ignited."

In another fire it was deemed to be caused by two 14/2 wires being piled one on top of another and stapled to the stud. The friction between the two cables comprimised the wire and insualtion causing a fire.

I hope this answers your question Levon and I hope it is alright to correct you Cassandra on the proper terminology when it comes to Fire related terms.


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## Cassandra (Mar 15, 2006)

Thanks, Dan, for the clarification between Ignition Temperature and Flash Point! It's nice to know the correct terms.

Cassandra


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

"Although these are for USA NEC-based calculations, they should also apply to Canada."

Not bilingual. Won't pass language standards. Rejected! Not available in first nation's languages - rejected.

"I have seen instances where they have notched the stud to feed a wire through between the drywall and the stud and failed to put a protector plate on" 

How about... An electrician did a proper job. Drilled the web of the stud put through the wire, notched the edge of the stud and recessed what looked like 10ga plate screwed in with two screws. Renovation contractor comes along and puts a nail through the plate. Later, that "contractor" (my brother-in-law) complained how tough that stud was to nail into and considered it indicative of a "well built home." He went right through the common wire, connecting it to ground. I couldn't figure out for the life of me where the problem was.

Allthunbs


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Thanks for the Info Cassandra. Very useful - inventoried for future reference.

Ron


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## cbsjoez1935 (Mar 14, 2007)

One thing that I observed was not mentioned, regarding electrcal fires was using aluminum wire connected to a brass or copper outlet or switch. The constant plugging/unplugging or switching/unswitching causes these dissimilar materials to rub and heat up, eventually causing fires. In my area, and I guess its all over by now, there has to be a special jumper connection made to eliminate this. Beware aluminum house wiring, unless everything else connected to it is aluminum. Why they did it in the first place was, of course money. Aluminum is cheaper than copper.
Joe Z.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

TRN_Diesel said:


> Perhaps with my experience I can shed some light on what causes electrical fires since I am the guy putting them out when they start a fire.


Hey Dan:

Is it possible that two 24" box fans are enough to prevent roll-over? I was thinking one pushing to cool and the other pulling to vent -- standard interior house construction?

Allthunbs


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## levon (Sep 14, 2008)

hi Dan

i think you gave an excellant answer!


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

cbsjoez1935 said:


> One thing that I observed was not mentioned, regarding electrcal fires was using aluminum wire connected to a brass or copper outlet or switch. The constant plugging/unplugging or switching/unswitching causes these dissimilar materials to rub and heat up, eventually causing fires. In my area, and I guess its all over by now, there has to be a special jumper connection made to eliminate this. Beware aluminum house wiring, unless everything else connected to it is aluminum. Why they did it in the first place was, of course money. Aluminum is cheaper than copper.
> Joe Z.


Aluminum has a number of problems. One is the combination of soft material and the oxidation layer it builds up. This reduces the contact area between the aluminum and the other material when inserted and removed, since some but not all of the area has the oxidation scraped off. A reduced contact area is like using smaller wire; it can generate heat.

Another is the thermal expansion co-efficient of aluminum is much higher for aluminum than it is for copper. In Fairbanks (interior Alaska where a hot summer day hits 90F and a cold winter night hits -60F) they were experiencing newly-constructed homes burning down at an alarming rate. Aluminum wire was the suspect. While I was attending the University there they did a test of Aluminum wire along a couple of power poles. They installed it in the fall when it was cool but not cold. Despite the slack in the wire, when it got very cold it pulled so tight that it broke the wire. Needing power, they repaired it while it was very cold. That summer it drooped so much it was dangerously close to the ground.

The same phenomena can occur when aluminum wire is use to run run service to your meter (or other unheated connections) from the power lines. Wires are usually installed when its warm and tightened down in their lugs (or clamps). When it gets cold, the aluminum contracts faster than the copper lug (or clamp), becoming loose. This can cause reduced contact area or even arcing. Fairbanks was one of the early-adopters of the "no aluminum wire" rule. 


Jim


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

allthunbs said:


> Hi Cassandra:
> 
> So, if I have a 36ft long house, add 12' to the workshop then I'll need...
> 
> ...


Ron,

As Cassandra has said, the breaker is to protect the wire you run and the receptacles, not your tool. You can always up-size the wire (as long as the breaker and receptacle terminals are rated for it). 

Check the price on different sizes of copper wire. Yes, copper gets more expensive as you get larger, but compare the price with the cost of the tools in your shop and it's a pittance. If you're going to the trouble to run the wire, a few dollars extra spent on making sure the wire is amptly or oversized and adding extra circuits is nothing compared to the peace of mind it gives you knowing it's "hell for safe". 

You won't regret doing it, you might wish you had later.


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## TRN_Diesel (Feb 24, 2009)

That is why when I am doing a job outside I run a large 10 gauge extension cord and then connect my tools from there. People used to think I was crazy but I have never had any problems with a lack of power or "voltage drop" so yes I agree whole heartily it is money well spent.


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## Cassandra (Mar 15, 2006)

allthunbs said:


> "Although these are for USA NEC-based calculations, they should also apply to Canada."
> 
> Not bilingual. Won't pass language standards. Rejected! Not available in first nation's languages - rejected.
> 
> Allthunbs


 Well, our Quebec residents can do a search on the web for "table de chute de tension" and recherchez un substitut approprié. Ce n'est pas difficile. Je ne parle pas français. 

Cassandra


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## Hamlin (Dec 25, 2005)

This is why you should always check your local codes first. You will have state codes, county codes, district codes and city codes. If for any reason you have doubts, questions or concerns, contact an electrician. They are the ones who have to keep up with all the codes.

Cassandra, many thanks for those links.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Cassandra said:


> Well, our Quebec residents can do a search on the web for "table de chute de tension" and recherchez un substitut approprié. Ce n'est pas difficile. Je ne parle français.
> 
> Cassandra


WELL DONE!!! :thank_you2: I used to work for the Federal Governments and I know all of the appropriate escape clauses in a variety of languages.

Now, I know who to contact when I can't find an appropriate translation.

Allthunbs


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## Cassandra (Mar 15, 2006)

Hamlin said:


> This is why you should always check your local codes first. You will have state codes, county codes, district codes and city codes. If for any reason you have doubts, questions or concerns, contact an electrician. They are the ones who have to keep up with all the codes.
> 
> Cassandra, many thanks for those links.


 
You're very welcome!


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## Cassandra (Mar 15, 2006)

allthunbs said:


> WELL DONE!!! :thank_you2: I used to work for the Federal Governments and I know all of the appropriate escape clauses in a variety of languages.
> 
> Now, I know who to contact when I can't find an appropriate translation.
> 
> Allthunbs


Hi Allthunbs:

Yahoo! Babel Fish - Text Translation and Web Page Translation is the translation engine I have used.

Cassandra


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Cassandra said:


> Hi Allthunbs:
> 
> Yahoo! Babel Fish - Text Translation and Web Page Translation is the translation engine I have used.
> 
> Cassandra


and here I thought you were a cloaked bilingualist ;-)

thanks anyway for the consideration. I'm not french but when someone makes the effort to acknowledge french (or any other language for that matter) it is very much appreciated.

Allthunbs


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## Cassandra (Mar 15, 2006)

allthunbs said:


> and here I thought you were a cloaked bilingualist ;-)
> 
> thanks anyway for the consideration. I'm not french but when someone makes the effort to acknowledge french (or any other language for that matter) it is very much appreciated.
> 
> Allthunbs


 Hi Allthunbs:

When I was in high school and university, I took introductory courses in other languages. Not with belief that I would be able to speak or write the other languages, but to get a better understanding of English, my mother tongue. The languages that I have been exposed to are: French, Latin, Russian, German, Italian, and a few others. 

Cassandra


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Cassandra said:


> The languages that I have been exposed to are: French, Latin, Russian, German, Italian, and a few others.


I try to say hello to honour a man in his language. Nothing more. I've used English for years only to find I know less and less of my mother tongue every day. For example, trying to keep up with Harry's dialect can be a challenge 
and he's supposed to speak English. Ah well, such is life.

Allthunbs


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## sparky1945 (Dec 9, 2009)

Bob,
Been reading this thread with interest and just wanted to comment on the drawing diagram. It looks to me that the drawing is incorrect. First of all the switch would be installed after the circuit breaker not before. Also for the 110v connection they do not have the circuit breaker wire connected. I do not think the intent was to switch the neutral wire I think the intent was to switch the hot wire on the circuit breaker.
Sparky1945


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