# Doors before floors or floors before doors?



## mpbc48 (Sep 17, 2010)

Hello all,

I have gotten both answers, but I'm not convinced they are any more than opinions.

I will be installing a porcelain tile floor in our entry as well as new entry doors. My main concern is for ease of installation. However, I am more interested in doing it correctly than taking the easy way out.

I am told that doing the floor first makes the door more difficult and door first makes the floor more difficult. I am better prepared for a more difficult door installation.

Based upon your experiences, which would you do first and why?

Thank you,
Mike


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## walowan (Jan 21, 2011)

I would do floors first....


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

So would I, floors first...... If you do the doors first you'll probably still have to take them off and plane them in after the floor has gone in

Regards

Phil


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Mike

I would suggest the door 1st...most doors need to be reworked after a tile floor job so why not do it to right up front, it's takes time for the tiles to set, the norm is over night..

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mpbc48 said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I have gotten both answers, but I'm not convinced they are any more than opinions.
> 
> ...


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## mpbc48 (Sep 17, 2010)

Thanks all,

I should have indicated that these are painted steel doors, so I won't be able to do any planing of the door.

Mike


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## newwoodworker (Mar 27, 2009)

Then I would say you would have to do the floors first and hang the doors accordingly seeing how they are steel I would hate to try and some how alter them after the fact.


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## RJM (Apr 11, 2010)

Definately tile first if you have the option. Tiles go under the casing - not around.


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## TomE (Dec 17, 2010)

If these doors are prehung exterior door units then go ahead and install on the subfloor and mitigate for water/air penetration.

The sills should give you enough elevation to install carpet, tile, hardwood etc. without needing to modify the door unit in any way. Butt the flooring to the sill. (caulk between tile and sill to allow for variant expansion and match color to the grout)

Leave interior casings off until the tile is complete or if you know the finished tile height cut the casings to allow the tile to slip under the trim (with a little wiggle room)


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## mpbc48 (Sep 17, 2010)

Thanks again everyone...

My plan of attack is becoming clearer.

Since all the trim and baseboard has been removed, I can yank the doors and see if there are any measurement issues with the pre-hung doors and the thickness of the tile.

Mike


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## paduke (Mar 28, 2010)

In residential construction the entry door is installed first, The door unit may need to be shimmed with plywood continuous across opening, to set the threshold at the proper height for transition make sure that the door will swing clear of new floor by using spacers equal to tile and substrate also with tile floor you will want a grout joint next to threshold and tile needs to be grouted the day after installation. so door first


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## tdublyou (Jan 8, 2010)

Mike,
I'm with the doors first contingent but do it while planning for the floor. What I mean by this is you need to set the doors sill height with the final floor height in mind. The trim can go on at any point but the tile should definitely go under the trim. 
It is FAR more important to have the doors air and water tight than it is to make the flooring job easier. If the doors leak, the floor, and a whole lot more will be ruined. Where I work, we replace doors and windows on a daily basis, to the tune of 30 different job sites a day, so I have seen all the horrors of not paying attention to installation and flashing details.
Tom is absolutely right about caulking, not grouting, where the tile meets the sill. If you grout it you will be redoing it annually if not more frequently.


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## mpbc48 (Sep 17, 2010)

Thanks again for all the help.

That pretty much settles it... if the pros install the doors first, that is what I will do.

Mike


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## Jack Wilson (Mar 14, 2010)

RJM60 said:


> Definately tile first if you have the option. Tiles go under the casing - not around.


Do you really want the weight of the door and casing setting on the tile? _If_ the tile should crack, how would you replace it? I always set doors first and bring the floor up to it.


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## derek willis (Jan 21, 2009)

Always floors first, then you can adjust to fit the finished floor but you cannot adjust a floor to fit a finished steel door.


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## reikimaster (Sep 29, 2005)

Definitely door first. Steel entry doors typically have a substantial sill. Get the door set with attention to that sill height in relation to finished floor height. This is a matter of planning. You need to see BOTH items in your mind. The door and the floor. I usually set a steel door such that the bottom of the door will clear the finished floor by half an inch. Less than that and you risk having the door touch the floor if anything is out of plumb or off level. REMEMBER THE THINSET as it has thickness in a tile floor installation. People forget that all the time. From a wood subfloor, you usually have some form of tile board whether it's cement board or kurdi or something, then the tile thickness, but don't forget that the thinset has thickness as well.
A sill height that is too high above finished floor is a tripping hazard. Plan, plan, plan. Measure, measure, measure. For those who do it all the time, it's easy. For those who don't, you have to think about it and plan it out.


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## istracpsboss (Sep 14, 2008)

Well ! That was all a clear cut decision !

BTW, what is a Thinset please ? I haven't come across the expression before.

Cheers

Peter


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Right On Charlie

" Thinset please ? " = the glue that holds the tile in place.

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reikimaster said:


> Definitely door first. Steel entry doors typically have a substantial sill. Get the door set with attention to that sill height in relation to finished floor height. This is a matter of planning. You need to see BOTH items in your mind. The door and the floor. I usually set a steel door such that the bottom of the door will clear the finished floor by half an inch. Less than that and you risk having the door touch the floor if anything is out of plumb or off level. REMEMBER THE THINSET as it has thickness in a tile floor installation. People forget that all the time. From a wood subfloor, you usually have some form of tile board whether it's cement board or kurdi or something, then the tile thickness, but don't forget that the thinset has thickness as well.
> A sill height that is too high above finished floor is a tripping hazard. Plan, plan, plan. Measure, measure, measure. For those who do it all the time, it's easy. For those who don't, you have to think about it and plan it out.


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## TomE (Dec 17, 2010)

I'll throw some more wrenches into the works.

Older homes can also have entry doors that actually sit on the frame of the structure with the sub and finished floors (ie. hardwood strip) butting into the sill. To install a "modern" door unit, padding up from the floor frame is usually needed.

Depending on the floor coverings in the rest of the house, many like to get the tile up to level. Say, for instance, that you have hardwood throughout and you would like to get the entry tile 'bout flush. Might need to add sheet goods atop the exisitng subfloor before the new door, underlayment and tile goes in. 

Don't forget to account for the overall height of the existing rough opening when making any elevation changes. It'd be a shame to find out that the new door unit is too tall to fit.


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## mpbc48 (Sep 17, 2010)

This is what I was afraid of. Conflicting answers from people whose opinions I respect very much. I'm thinking if I remove the existing doors and prepare the floor up to but not including the "wet ingredients", I can dry fit the doors and see what I am up against. Does that make sense?

Mike


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## TomE (Dec 17, 2010)

"Dry fit" should work or you could remove the interior casings to acually locate the header and jack studs and measure the existing rough opening (header to subfloor, jack to jack). You'll just need to do the math to see if all the parts will fit.

You don't want the new door frame to take a structural load, ie. tight to the header and preferably leave yourself enough wiggle room to allow you get to plumb, level and square on the door unit.

If this was an interior door then doing the finish floor first is not a bad idea.


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## Jack Wilson (Mar 14, 2010)

*DOORS FIRST*. You won't regret it. Charlie took the time to spell it out, its much easier to have a conversation, but at the end of the day it's doors first. I have been doing this for over 30 years.


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## mpbc48 (Sep 17, 2010)

istracpsboss said:


> Well ! That was all a clear cut decision !
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Peter


Lol, Peter. At the time of your post it was five to five. 

Yeah... clear as mud. ":^)

As of this post, because of a ringing in my ears *":^)* , I'm leaning towards doors first.

Derek makes a good point though, I'd like to hear from the doors first people on his comment.

Mike


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## Jack Wilson (Mar 14, 2010)

derek willis said:


> Always floors first, then you can adjust to fit the finished floor but you cannot adjust a floor to fit a finished steel door.


Derek, I have to disagree with you on this one. The floor is much easier to adjust and manipulate, be it ceramic tile, hardwood, laminate, VCT, vinyl, carpet... It just doesn't matter. No matter the floor it can be cut around the door, and if you were using wood frame doors then you can even zipp 'em out with a fein tool, or knock of it, and slide your flooring underneath, but again, either way it's doors first. Trimmers dont wait for the flooring guy, they trim out the house, and _then_ the flooring guy comes in, wellll, for carpet. The doors are always installed first regardless, but if its not carpet then the trimmer may have to come back for the base trim. Also, putting the floor down first might compromise the rough opening for the door. If the're steel your out of luck.


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## tdublyou (Jan 8, 2010)

I am amazed that this seemingly simple question has gotten to 3 pages and counting. 
The industry accepted best practice for entry doors and floors, is doors first and for good sound reasons. Not because it's someones opinion or preference.


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## mpbc48 (Sep 17, 2010)

tdublyou said:


> I am amazed that this seemingly simple question has gotten to 3 pages and counting.
> The industry accepted best practice for entry doors and floors, is doors first and for good sound reasons. Not because it's someones opinion or preference.


My research came up with both ways as being the best, so I'm not surprised there are supporters for each. However, here, I expected an 80/20 or at least a definite majority, not a near split. 

It wasn't my intention to start a Mac vs. PC type thread, but it seems clear there isn't a consensus on this subject.

For me, the compelling argument is from those who do this for a living; they appear to agree with doors first.

Mike


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## Jack Wilson (Mar 14, 2010)

mpbc48 said:


> As of this post, because of a ringing in my ears *":^)* , I'm leaning towards doors first.
> 
> Mike


Sorry for the ringing Mike, "can you hear me now"?:wacko::moil:, I didn't realize just how big that font was gonna be! Still, I did want to emphasize my feelings on this matter


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## mpbc48 (Sep 17, 2010)

No problem Jack, that font size actually did exactly what you intended it to. 

It influenced my going back over the thread to see what the people who make a living at this had written.

I appreciate *all* the points of view shared here. Without this dialogue it would be just opinions without substance.

Mike


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## TomE (Dec 17, 2010)

The next question will be floors or kitchen cabinets first.


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## RJM (Apr 11, 2010)

For an entry door, I would agree with door first since the floor will stop short of the entry saddle; however, for interior doors, I would do the floor first if I had a choice. Granted that professionals do ALL the doors first but I thnk this is an issue of coordinating the two trades rather than optimum timing.

*When trades aren't coordinated right:*

Regarding Jack's statement "Trimmers dont wait for the flooring guy, they trim out the house, and then the flooring guy comes in, wellll, for carpet .... but if its not carpet then the trimmer may have to come back for the base trim"; this is not always the case. All the trim in my tiled bathrooms and kitchen was incorrectly installed before the tile; it's all grouted in. Fortunately, the tiler left a gallon of Antique White sanded grout, so I was able to re-grout the bathroom tile when I had to repair a leaky pipe (can you believe that the trim installer shot a nail just above the nail plate - it pierced the front of the hot supply copper pipe and created a dent in the back - it was there since they built the house in 1998 and was barely leaking but over time, the bottom of the drywall weakend and created a hole. I fixed it Nov 2010).


My kitchen cabinets were also incorerectly installed before the tile and are grouted in place.


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## mpbc48 (Sep 17, 2010)

RJM60 said:


> For an entry door, I would agree with floor first since the floor will stop short of the entry saddle; however, for interior doors, I would do the floor first if I had a choice. Granted that professionals do ALL the doors first but I thnk this is an issue of coordinating the two trades rather than optimum timing.


The waters clear and then they muddy up again... or did you actually mean *door* first because it is an entry door?

Thanks,
Mike


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## TomE (Dec 17, 2010)

Think about it.

When building a house one needs to get it weathered-in before anything can happen in the inside in terms of mechanical, plumbing, electrical, insulation, drywall, paint, interior finishes etc.

Sure, tar paper on the roof and housewrap with plywood over the openings may be considered "weathered in" but that will only get the rough-ins started on my projects.

Most times we can't even get rough-in inspections until the roof is shingled and windows and exterior doors are installed, nothing else can happen inside until the rough-in inspections are approved.

Special circumstances like a roof covered patio with a brick pavers that continues into the foyer of the house might warrant installing the door after the pavers and thermal break is down but it would also warrant a whole lot of other considerations in the design/build of the house as well.


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## Jack Wilson (Mar 14, 2010)

TomE said:


> The next question will be floors or kitchen cabinets first.


Tom, great question! Usually the cabinets go in first, sometimes I am requested to raise them with some plywood to account for height loss with a tile or hardwood floor, occasionally I will raise them enough to allow the floor to just slip under and then go around the cabinets with some shoe base. Typically, because of the cost of flooring, the floor goes in second, why pay for the flooring under the cabinets when you will never see or use it? Flooring does go under the fridge, stove and dishwasher. These items will need to be removed at some point, (they will, that's just the way it is, things break or get upgraded), few things are more frustrating than trying to get a dishwasher out from under a counter top where it's been berthed below floor level.


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## RJM (Apr 11, 2010)

mpbc48 said:


> The waters clear and then they muddy up again... or did you actually mean *door* first because it is an entry door?
> 
> Thanks,
> Mike


I meant door first for entry door - I fixed my post. Thanks.


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## TomE (Dec 17, 2010)

Jack Wilson said:


> Usually the cabinets go in first, sometimes I am requested to raise them with some plywood to account for height loss with a tile or hardwood floor, .


Heh, I knew someone would bite 

I'm of the school of putting down the hard floors (or vinyl) first. If there is significant cost difference in terms of square footage then I'll pad the hidden areas needed to level the kitchen and let the floor guys cut around the plywood. 

The floor guys actually like the wide open area where they can focus on flooring and not messing up a cabinet, I've also found it easier to patch a mishap in drywall than repairing a cabinet.

Cardboard, paper and luan protect the floors pretty well when needed for the other trades and the floors have to be in for final trimout anyway. 

Not that I haven't put in kitchens first but normally it's a remodel, not new construction.


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## RJM (Apr 11, 2010)

TomE said:


> Heh, I knew someone would bite
> 
> I'm of the school of putting down the hard floors (or vinyl) first.


What about ceramic tile?


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## Jack Wilson (Mar 14, 2010)

RJM60 said:


> What about ceramic tile?


Tom? You wanna field this one?


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## tdublyou (Jan 8, 2010)

RJM60 said:


> What about ceramic tile?


I'm of the opinion that any tile, ceramic or otherwise gets installed after the cabinets but as Jack mentioned. I will usually build up the floor under the cabinets in order to let the tile slide underneath. The exception is in a bathroom. Because of the wet environment, and the usually small amount of cabinetry, I feel better tiling the whole floor. It's usually only a few square feet you are "wasting" and it's good piece of mind.
As for hardwood, I've found that the money you save by installing plywood under the cabinets is spent in having to carefully lay out the cabinetry and in cutting the hardwood around the plywood. It's much easier to just run the room, stain and give it 1 or 2 coats of poly then protect the floor. At trim out you simply screen the floor and give it the final coat.

Just my 2 cents


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## mpbc48 (Sep 17, 2010)

I thought this thread was finally dead...

Oh well... tomorrow I start on the *Doors first*.

Mike

Sorry Jack, I just had to do it. *":^)*


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## TomE (Dec 17, 2010)

Jack Wilson said:


> Tom? You wanna field this one?


Hard floors include ceramic. Carpet is pretty much the only floor we like to do after everything else is done. 

Last big job we did the entire house was floored with hardwood and tile before any trim and cabinetry was done.

After drywall and wall paint were completed we screwed and glued 1/2" ply-underlayment in all areas to be tiled, set our hardwood borders and transitions under bathroom doors and filled out the hardwood while the tile was being set.

Kitchen was fully tiled (the customer liked the idea and the tile guy gave us a little break on the cost) as well as two baths, a foyer and a handicap bath with roll in shower. All exterior doors were set (on the rough deck) well before insulation and drywall went up.

We did plan for hardwood and tile so our RO's were set a little higher and we might have padded the ext. doors up a little to allow for any "fat" throw rugs.

All floors were level except a low capped expansion joint in an archway
where the hardwood changed direction.

We prefinish our interior woodwork when feasible so after full interior trim-out and kitchen install it's mostly touchup and making sure the plumbers and electricians do their final thing without trashing the place.


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## Frank Lee (Nov 29, 2008)

Door first w/respect to finish floor. Frank Lee


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## Jack Wilson (Mar 14, 2010)

mpbc48 said:


> I thought this thread was finally dead...
> 
> Oh well... tomorrow I start on the *Doors first*.
> 
> ...


HAHA Mike!! I havent been around for a while and just noticed this, pretty Funny


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