# problems with getting face frames square



## cmac08 (Jan 7, 2013)

I am not a beginner with woodworking but I am with my OWN shop. My boss has all Grizzley tools,Kreg clamp table,shaper, cabinet makers table saw,planer,jointer etc. I have just started my own shop. Kreg router table,dewalt router, dewalt table saw, dewalt radial miter, home made cross-cut sled for TS,no fancy squares just a swanson tri-square,factory dewalt baldes. All bought new in last 6 months... I have got my miter saw down to .002 from square (luck) and my TS is .017 on my cross-cut sled.I do not have the big fancy Kreg clamp table im use to and am forced to use workbench and clamps... I do not Yet have the full Kreg pocket hole setup but just the mini Kreg. 

Ok now you see what im working with....I am making a end table...Using 3 face frames for the front and 2 sides. I planned my stock (red oak) to 3/4". ripped to 2"

I have went threw prolly 50' of stock and got nothing but a headache. I clamp my boards off of straight edge around my square pocket drill them... i have came out with either an un square frame, uneven face, or it pulls them together so much it bows as if my bevel on my TS is off but i have checked it 100 times and it looks to be dead on....

I have ben using my Kreg router table as jointer but that does not help with the ends of the boards.... im so lost at this point...PLEASE HELP!!!!


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## Marco (Feb 21, 2009)

Corey; I would recut then dry fit to see where the problem(s) are and go from there. My first thought would be the table saw. Raise the blade all the way up and slide that speed square up to it and see what you have. I learned the hardway about crosscut sleds.... they are either square or they are not worth using. Take the time to square up the one you have or build a new one.

With some patience You will find out what is throwing off your face frames. Start with the simpliest thing and work your way up till you find the culprit(s).

Good luck and let us know what you find out


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## papawd (Jan 5, 2011)

Welcome,Corey, I used to have problems with square picture frames also and found the best way to cut the 45's is with table saw and also cut all the same direction meaning do not move blade once it is setup . My old Dewalt miter saw when moved from one side to another (45 degree setting) would be off enough to throw the frame out of whack, I have since gotten in the habit of checking with a machinest square on all my blade settings , I hope this helps


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## cmac08 (Jan 7, 2013)

good idea i dont check for square untill im all together and just hoping for the best... my sled is cutting square acording to me cutting a board flipping and recutting and then guaging.... the bevel of my TS is plumb as far as using the square to check....


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## cmac08 (Jan 7, 2013)

papawd thanks for the help but i have NOT even dared to take on 45s face frames...im just doing the H config


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

cmac08 said:


> I am not a beginner with woodworking but I am with my OWN shop. My boss has all Grizzley tools,Kreg clamp table,shaper, cabinet makers table saw,planer,jointer etc. I have just started my own shop. Kreg router table,dewalt router, dewalt table saw, dewalt radial miter, home made cross-cut sled for TS,no fancy squares just a swanson tri-square,factory dewalt baldes. All bought new in last 6 months... I have got my miter saw down to .002 from square (luck) and my TS is .017 on my cross-cut sled.I do not have the big fancy Kreg clamp table im use to and am forced to use workbench and clamps... I do not Yet have the full Kreg pocket hole setup but just the mini Kreg.
> 
> Ok now you see what im working with....I am making a end table...Using 3 face frames for the front and 2 sides. I planned my stock (red oak) to 3/4". ripped to 2"
> 
> ...


Corey-

I'm assuming you tuned your miter saw and table saw right? On your crosscut sled fence, take a 0.017" feeler gauge, put it against your fence on the end that is shy. put a block against it. Clamp the block. Remove the screws on the end of the fence. Move the fence to the block. Put screws in new holes to secure it. That should get it within 0.002 of zero.

Then check it with a 5-cut method. If you don't know what that is ask and I'll post. With that you can dial in your sled fence. 

My work prep is done with my table saw, then miter saw. Actually, any piece that is too long a cut for my compound sliding miter saw, is done on the Radial Arm Saw, then if longer, the table saw. I do more on my table saw if I'm playing or practicing. On a table saw you have blade to miter and fence to miter... then blade to table angle. On a radial arm saw and miter saw you have blade to fence angle and blade to table angle. 

So my face stiles and rails are ripped on my table saw. My Glue edges for glue ups, same. Etc. I jointer for cabinetry on the table saw. I cut to length on the miter saw or in a sled... Whichever I'm in the mood for or is gong to be faster in the long run. I use stops for my lengths. I sometime use my router table to jointer cabinets pieces... again depending on my mood.

I check my bevel and square with a speed square or combo square. I usually have a few carpenter squares around. If in doubt I have a wixey digital angle meter. Check your equipment. If good, use them to check square of the cut work. If square, then the joinery... 

Pocket Hole Joinery- If you're doing it and care about tight joints and square... use clamps to hold the work together during drilling and screwing. Also use blocks clamped in to hold it in square during that drilling and screwing. I put the faces down while joining it together, so the face surfaces line up. Past experience tells me that if I don't use lots on clamps, I get loose pocket joints, faces that the surfaces don't line up well and are not square.

Higher end faces, I now do other joining techniques.

None of that is going to matter if your bevel is off when you cut, as you suspect. Another way I check that is very saw I have, I have a machined steel block there near it. I can set that block against the blade and see if it's at 90.


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## cmac08 (Jan 7, 2013)

*New problem*

Ok I got all my saws cutting great... Got some new tools and new blades.... Now next problem has presented itself... I'm putting my face frames together with pocket holes from a kreg jig and pocket screws..... I'm clamping the boards down to my clamp table, applying glue, and then screwing together.... After I take off the clamps the stile is like it is bowed to the rail.... It's almost like the screw is pulling in too tight... But any looser and it leaves a gap... I know it's Not my cuts because everytime it's always bowed the exact same way.(bowed away from the opposite side of the screw) .... Sorry if this is confusing its just hard to explain in text.... I'm following the angle of the stepped drill bit in my pocket hole. It almost seems as if the angle is too much... Like it needs to be drilled flatter... I'm not arguing with the kreg, I have used them many times befor with no problems.... Just a lot better tools....
Any help would be awesome....
Thanks guys!


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## Finley West (Jan 15, 2013)

I have also the same problem facing to understand the accuracy.


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

cmac08 said:


> Now next problem has presented itself... I'm putting my face frames together with pocket holes from a kreg jig and pocket screws..... I'm clamping the boards down to my clamp table, applying glue, and then screwing together.... After I take off the clamps the stile is like it is bowed to the rail.... It's almost like the screw is pulling in too tight...


That used to happen to me also. Still does if I don't look out for it.

Assuming that the stiles are jointed square and rail ends are trimmed square... but you can see that when you dry fit.

Here is what I figured out what was happening and causes that... I used to just clamp the pieces so the front surfaces were even with the butt joint together. When you start the pocket screws in they start making threads in the first half of the joint, then when it hits the second half of the joint it tries to make it's way in, while creating threads... and would push the joint apart slightly as it did that.

If left to it's own accord, if you keep going, it creates those threads with that slight gap in the joint. When you snug it together, it then pulls that gap together and since the screw was at an angle, the faces of the joint are now off.

To get around that, I do a few different things.

First technique- Additional to your clamping, I use another clamp to try to keep the joint together ( rail to stile). I screw until it starts to go into the other side of the joint. When it starts going into it, I reverse the driver and back out the screw slightly. I tap the stile towards the rail to ensure there is no gap. I then screw it together.

Second technique- same clamping. Before assembly, after drilling with a pocket hole jig (I use other than Kreg brand), I re-drill the screw part of the hole in the rail (the first half of the joint) with a drill size that is large enough for the pocket screw to fit into. That way the screw can start into the stile without pushing the joint apart.

Third technique is to make yourself an "L" shaped jig. Clamp this jig the your stile. Then clamp it to the rail. Using this will help keep the 2 pieces together and square during assembly.

These are just a few things that have helped me with cabinet faces if using pocket screws. Hope it helps for you.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Mike, I think you hit on the problem with the pocket screws. If the screw pushes the second board away before it starts threading then that hole will be too low and the 2nd board will consistently wind up higher than the piece with the pocket hole. I thought that the step bit you use is supposed to provide a clearance hole that would keep that from happening?


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> Mike, I think you hit on the problem with the pocket screws. If the screw pushes the second board away before it starts threading then that hole will be too low and the 2nd board will consistently wind up higher than the piece with the pocket hole.* I thought that the step bit you use is supposed to provide a clearance hole that would keep that from happening?*


It does....
and the smooth shank between the threads and the head of the screw insures the correct draw up...
also remember to use your clamps...


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

Cherryville Chuck said:


> I thought that the step bit you use is supposed to provide a clearance hole that would keep that from happening?


You would think. That all depends how far up you put the stop collar on the bit... I like to have some meat left in the joint and tend to cut down just far enough to cut the relief for the head. If you cut it down too far, then there is loads of room for the screw head to be inside the relief, but not much meat left in that side to support the joint. The threads won't stick if you get down that far. 

I try to find a happy medium, which tends to outrun that nub on the step drill... So I end up with that nub barely peaking through the rail end-cut (if any at all). If it does peak through, I rub a chisel on it or a sanding block to ensure it's flat/to get a good tight joint. The threads on my pocket screws still grab a little in the hole of the nub of my step drill... unless I use a thinner pocket screw.

Most people get pocket screws from the big-box stores, who only carry size #8, coarse, in different lengths. There are also pocket screws in sizes #7 and #6... coarse and fine threads.

I think (and I may be wrong) the major use of the nub part of the step drill and the unthreaded shoulder of the pocket screw is to draw the joint up tight.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

MAFoElffen said:


> I think (and I may be wrong) the major use of the nub part of the step drill and the unthreaded shoulder of the pocket screw is to draw the joint up tight.


It's to prevent "bridging", when a screw is threaded into the first piece and doesn't start right away into the second piece which pushes it away. I usually drill a clearance hole into the first piece and then chuck a smaller bit for the countersink hole into the second piece. More work but it eliminates bridging. If you can clamp the two pieces together tight enough it won't happen and if you are drilling horizontal or vertical you can back it out and start over as you said. That doesn't work on an angled hole.

I think you might be right when you said the wrong size screw might have been used. It shouldn't have been able to thread into the clearance hole.


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