# Skis



## istracpsboss (Sep 14, 2008)

Hi

I just tried a search but, surprisingly, it didn't turn up anything and I know there have been lots of posts on these.

I've made the cheeks and was just wondering about the rails. Could one of you who uses these regularly please advise me as to how long they should ideally be?

I'd thought of putting a thread on the end of the two bars that came with my Ryobi, then thought that they may need to be more adjustable. Do you tend to keep the cheeks the same distance apart or do you find you need to adjust them a lot? I could use all thread but I thought using the bars would give a smoother ride for the router.

Cheers

Peter


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Peter

" cheeks/rails " = ???

They can be anything you want to use. the easy way to find ski items ,check the Gallery's out.....

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istracpsboss said:


> Hi
> 
> I just tried a search but, surprisingly, it didn't turn up anything and I know there have been lots of posts on these.
> 
> ...


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## Ghidrah (Oct 21, 2008)

I have a question too. 

I'm considering using my old PC 2 1/2 hp router for a ski jig. 1st I slid the fence rods in and discovered the they're sloppy in the holes made for them. Then I measured the holes and found that one side of the 
base has holes approx 7/16" and the holes on the other side are 1/2" or more.

So if the router slides back and forth along the rods and you expect the bit to maintain precise alignment and height don't you need to bore the through holes to the same diameter?

If so how does one go about guaranteed perfectly aligned through holes? If not what am I missing?


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

Boy, Ron... That's a new one on me... The rods don't necessarily have to be the same diameter as some don't slide the router on the rods per se, but use longer rods than the width of their stock to be cut and move the ski assembly. In fact, some use nuts on the rods to restrain the router from any movement. With that approach any sagging that may exists in the rods due to the weight of the router remains a constant and they get a level cut. In that way the weight of the router and pressure from the nuts should give a stable cut.

Others may offer an easy way to ream out the holes but its beyond my knowledge, beyond drilling them out or having them machined ($$$). .


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

HI guys

They can be diff. size but it's best to drill out the base to 1/2" on both holes,if you have the room in the base,easy job with a hand drill..it's almost impossible to screw up that type of job in Alum... 

========


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## Ghidrah (Oct 21, 2008)

I figured it was light cast material, the PC D handle base has ample material to bore out. If hand drilling works, maybe hit it with a tapered ream 1st? Yes ... No?

I tried some 1/2 threaded rod earlier and it had some room, I'm thinking it's actually a smidge shy of 1/2" due to the threading process. I may take the base to the lumb yd and try sliding some 1/2" solid through. 

Is there a standard limit for rod length to minimize sag? The PC7537 is pretty heavy?


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

" tapered ream 1st? Yes ... No? " = no, the bit will follow the hole in place..

" minimize sag? " 12" long,, but 36" is best, you can always just move the router to the center and move the skis in.. to minimize sag..think of it like a bridge..the load is in the center of the bridge..

That's one of the neat things you can do with all thread rod and you can't do with the plain rod..(threads on the ends only ) plus you don't need to use the big rod. unless you use a tank of a router to do small jobs. most of the tank router have big holes in the base (12 mm or 1/2" size ) in place for the edge guide rods..it comes down to if you want to load a 15 lb.router on your bridge or put a 5 lb. router on your bridge..

Most have the tank router mounted in the table and use light router for hand jobs like the ski jig..but some like to over kill the job with the tanks, it's like using a Cat. D9 to dig out a small drive way when a small Ford back hole will do the job just fine..

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Ghidrah said:


> I figured it was light cast material, the PC D handle base has ample material to bore out. If hand drilling works, maybe hit it with a tapered ream 1st? Yes ... No?
> 
> I tried some 1/2 threaded rod earlier and it had some room, I'm thinking it's actually a smidge shy of 1/2" due to the threading process. I may take the base to the lumb yd and try sliding some 1/2" solid through.
> 
> Is there a standard limit for rod length to minimize sag? The PC7537 is pretty heavy?


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## levon (Sep 14, 2008)

BigJimAK said:


> Boy, Ron... That's a new one on me... The rods don't necessarily have to be the same diameter as some don't slide the router on the rods per se, but use longer rods than the width of their stock to be cut and move the ski assembly. In fact, some use nuts on the rods to restrain the router from any movement. With that approach any sagging that may exists in the rods due to the weight of the router remains a constant and they get a level cut. In that way the weight of the router and pressure from the nuts should give a stable cut.
> 
> Others may offer an easy way to ream out the holes but its beyond my knowledge, beyond drilling them out or having them machined ($$$). .



hi Jim,

even with the nuts sagging can occur and can ruin a cut, especially when template routing. so nuts are not a good answer to rods that are too small.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

istracpsboss said:


> Hi
> 
> I just tried a search but, surprisingly, it didn't turn up anything and I know there have been lots of posts on these.
> 
> ...


Peter, Ron and Jim:

This does take a bit of thinking ahead. I have two sets, one with 24" rods and one with 30" rods. The 24" are threaded and are used only under duress. 

The 30" are lovely. I used 12mm drill rod and the fit on my M12V is a bit sloppy. However, the M12V has two thumb screws that tighten the router on the rails. Both thumbscrews are on one side of the router so to ensure a perfectly vertical setup, I use a bit of paper or plastic to shim up the other side. 

The length of your rods will be dictated by the size of the table you're working on and by the type of job you'll be doing. My router table is going to get a new top, specifically for the skis. My 30" rods will use a 3' x 4' top.

Your next questions is going to be rails or no rails. What kind of holding method are you going to use? If you use cams, you need a smaller table and skis. If you use rails, things can get big quickly. If you're using cauls the table gets longer and narrow. I've not been able to figure out how to use dogs and muzzles yet with skis. Any experiments put them always in the way.

The last thing to determine length is control. I do some stuff freehand using a striking knife to mark. When I shift the router to the end and use a magnifying glass I can get right up to the mark and control is fantastic. 

A lot of ski work is experimentation as you learn what and how. It took me a long time to get the courage to let go of the router and hang onto the skis.

Thanks for the question. I'll update my notes accordingly.


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## levon (Sep 14, 2008)

its very easy to build an auxilliary table top to fit on top of your router table to use for the skis. you can build the top to whatever dimensions you want.

im not sure im following allthumbs, maybe he can give us a photo of how he is using the skis. a photo would help a lot.


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## Ghidrah (Oct 21, 2008)

I found some 1/2" rod at the Aubuchon's hardware but didn't buy it, the fit was a little tight and I didn't want to force it. 2ndly, the rod was a rusty mess, I think I might try one of the local sht mtl shop for some SST rod.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

I have shown these photographs on several occasions, The important points are:
the rods must fit the holes, a little slop is not a worry because the screws above the holes are tightened once the router is positioned.
the spacing must suit the router.
the length of rods must be such that the assembly can be manipulated around the bench without falling off the edge!
bright mild steel rod is readily available and easy to thread.


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## istracpsboss (Sep 14, 2008)

Thanks Harry. Those pics were great. They answered my question. I only need to tap the ends and I need to match the overal length of the rods to my table. Incidentally, I checked the rods on several routers. Most were 8mm, with the DeWalt 10mm. They were all metric.

Cheers

Peter


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## Ghidrah (Oct 21, 2008)

So the jig is fixed to one position and you slide the whole jig back and forth? 
Jeez I'm thick, I thought the jig was fixed and the router moved back and forth along the rods.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Ron

They can be used both ways,,if you use the plain rods BUT every time you lock the router down to the plain rods you will get a nick in the rods and every nick is a stopping point when you move it over the rods..

That's why I use long all Acme threaded rod, so I can move the sides in (skis) and move router to the right place then lock the router in place..to take the load off the bridge span..

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Ghidrah said:


> So the jig is fixed to one position and you slide the whole jig back and forth?
> Jeez I'm thick, I thought the jig was fixed and the router moved back and forth along the rods.


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## Ghidrah (Oct 21, 2008)

I thought about threaded rod, but wondered about the threads rasping the tubes in the base as it slid along them. Considering the light cast metal and repeated use wouldn't the tubes go out of round?


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Ron

They may if you use it like a file 

You can slip tubes over the rod to keep it clean and true but again you just need to slide the router over a little bit and lock it in place, you don't need to move the router up and down the threaded rods, if that's what you want to do then use the rod without threads in the center...

But I don't recommend the rods that are not full thread..you will see why the 1st.time you want to put in a slot in some stock..

Like below

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Ghidrah said:


> I thought about threaded rod, but wondered about the threads rasping the tubes in the base as it slid along them. Considering the light cast metal and repeated use wouldn't the tubes go out of round?


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

levon said:


> hi Jim,
> 
> even with the nuts sagging can occur and can ruin a cut, especially when template routing. so nuts are not a good answer to rods that are too small.


Levon,

I agree.. if the rods are too small, they are too small. As you know, all rods are going to deflect *some* amount as it's where the rod "gets" the counterforce to support it, the question is how much. My thinking was that with the router in a fixed location and the nuts squeezing the router to keep it in place on the rods, while there may some sag, as long as it was a constant, the depth would stay steady. Am I missing something here? It wouldn't be the first time.. <g>


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Ghidrah said:


> So the jig is fixed to one position and you slide the whole jig back and forth?
> Jeez I'm thick, I thought the jig was fixed and the router moved back and forth along the rods.


Hi Ron:

I have only experimented with a router locked on the rods and moving the skis to control the bit. I've not tried moving the router on the rods. My fear was that there would be too much deflection of the rods and create an uneven cut. As you pointed out earlier, there is some play in the holes in the base. Add that variance with potential deflection of the rods and you see an accumulation of errors.

Now, there's another side, rails. Rails are blocks attached to a table top and the skis adjusted to be guided by the rails when doing a cut. This will duplicate the action of running the router across the rods but without deflection and under total control. The router, in this case, would be locked to the rails.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

levon said:


> its very easy to build an auxilliary table top to fit on top of your router table to use for the skis. you can build the top to whatever dimensions you want.
> 
> im not sure im following allthumbs, maybe he can give us a photo of how he is using the skis. a photo would help a lot.


I'm trying to figure out how to show this in still photos  stay tuned.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Guys

Maybe it's just me but the rods don't support the router so to speak, they keep the router from tipping over to one side or the other ,but most of the time the router base is on top of the stock or just about 1/16" off the stock..

If you want to use it for a power planer then you need to use some rails to help support the router and keep it running true with the rails and then just plunge down to remove the stock under the router base...the rails can be flat or at a angle to taper the stock if needed..or to take out a bow or low spot in the stock..

It's true the bigger the rods the less the router will dip but a bigger base plate will do the same job as the bigger rods..once the base plates rides on the support rails that's are far as it can go down...but the rods will help the router from flipping or dipping over..

It's very much like the jig below, the side rails do the work..
see link below
Router Forums - View Single Post - Mortise & Tenon Jig for the Plunge Router

LUST ONE MORE THING YOU CAN DO WITH THE SKI JIG 
http://www.woodworkersedge.com/Gooseneck.htm
====


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## levon (Sep 14, 2008)

BigJimAK said:


> Levon,
> 
> I agree.. if the rods are too small, they are too small. As you know, all rods are going to deflect *some* amount as it's where the rod "gets" the counterforce to support it, the question is how much. My thinking was that with the router in a fixed location and the nuts squeezing the router to keep it in place on the rods, while there may some sag, as long as it was a constant, the depth would stay steady. Am I missing something here? It wouldn't be the first time.. <g>


hi Jim,

if your using a template and one side comes of the top and the other side of the router deflects you have a ruined work piece, thats all i was referring to. 

i really enjoy template routing a lot.


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## levon (Sep 14, 2008)

thanks Ron, i will be waiting.


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## George II (Nov 8, 2007)

istracpsboss said:


> Hi
> 
> I just tried a search but, surprisingly, it didn't turn up anything and I know there have been lots of posts on these.
> 
> ...


Peter,

My Ryobi has 5/16' holes for the guide attachment. When I constructed my rails I went with 3/8" rods...(rails) I had to drill the thru holes out to 3/8"..My thinking was what the hell, the guide doesn't know the size it only knows it can't move. However, the router will still sag..
I threaded my rods about 4 " and have the option of moving the router vis the router handles or repositioning the router on the rods and using the cheeks of the skis. 

I kinda hope this is clear, if not I'm sure Harry will soon suss this out..

Regards,
George Cole


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

George, I'm sure that 3/8" rods wont sag unless they are are incredibly long and even if in the unlikely event that there is a small amount of sag, so what, it will remain constant because the skis should be operated by the end cheeks NOT the router's handles. I fail to understand the reasons behind some members advocating using the handles, any change of pressure and the depth of cut varies, at least leaving circles.
I have to disagree with my good friend Bj, sitting the router on an uneven thickness piece of wood isn't really a good idea and in any case even with a gap of any size, means that the router is suspended on the rods. For most jobs I have the router well clear of the wood, this allows full view of the cutter and makes it easy to blow the chips away.


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## istracpsboss (Sep 14, 2008)

George II said:


> Peter,
> 
> My Ryobi has 5/16' holes for the guide attachment. When I constructed my rails I went with 3/8" rods...(rails) I had to drill the thru holes out to 3/8"..My thinking was what the hell, the guide doesn't know the size it only knows it can't move. However, the router will still sag..
> I threaded my rods about 4 " and have the option of moving the router vis the router handles or repositioning the router on the rods and using the cheeks of the skis.
> ...


Thanks George. It's an interesting idea. I've made my skis with parallel dual slots to suit the two different sizes of rods that match different routers. I've also seen an idea using stop collars instead of threading the bars.
Your explanation helped.

Cheers

Peter


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

levon said:


> hi Jim,
> 
> if your using a template and one side comes of the top and the other side of the router deflects you have a ruined work piece, thats all i was referring to.
> 
> i really enjoy template routing a lot.


If that happens I totally agree.. and must be avoided, no matter the technique.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

When template routing, there have been few if any occasions when skis would have had any advantage, normally the router would sit on the template and on the odd occasion that it gets too close to the edge, a support like this has solved the problem.


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## Ghidrah (Oct 21, 2008)

So now I'm thinking maybe no ski, except for, as in the jewelry box (planing a confined surface) within a project, I don't see much use. 

Bear in mind my lack of experience with skis, for the most part except for planing what does the ski do the the RT can't? 

Now I'm thinking a sheet of 3/8 or 1/2" clear Lexan or Poly fixed to the router to slide over rails.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Ghidrah said:


> So now I'm thinking maybe no ski, except for, as in the jewelry box (planing a confined surface) within a project, I don't see much use.
> 
> Bear in mind my lack of experience with skis, for the most part except for planing what does the ski do the the RT can't?
> 
> Now I'm thinking a sheet of 3/8 or 1/2" clear Lexan or Poly fixed to the router to slide over rails.


Ron. please do believe me when I tell you that once the ski method of routing is fully understood, you will be in a position to solve all manner of problems that otherwise would take longer and be more difficult to solve by more conventional methods. I'll repeat what I've said many times on this forum, skis are NOT the be all end all, they are simply another very useful tool in your shop like so many other tools that are not used all the time but when they are, the job in hand is completed so much easier. Here is another example where skis made a tricky job simple taken from my gallery where there are heaps of other uses illustrated for those with time to spend wending their way through the many illustrated projects.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

bobj3 said:


> Hi Ron
> 
> They can be used both ways,,if you use the plain rods BUT every time you lock the router down to the plain rods you will get a nick in the rods and every nick is a stopping point when you move it over the rods..
> 
> ...


I wonder if American mild steel is softer that the Australian product. I ask this because after considerable use over many years, my rods look perfect, as with tightening router collets, one must not over-tighten. As I mentioned elsewhere in this thread, sag isn't a problem because the ski assy. should be operated from the end cheeks, therefore the depth of cut will remain constant. Using smooth rods with threaded ends makes for almost instant adjustment of the router when required.
In conclusion, there is no law which dictates how individuals use a ski set-up, whichever way suits, use, all I'm attempting to do is give the benefit of my long experience using skis with great success.


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## jlord (Nov 16, 2009)

harrysin said:


> I wonder if American mild steel is softer that the Australian product. I ask this because after considerable use over many years, my rods look perfect, as with tightening router collets, one must not over-tighten. As I mentioned elsewhere in this thread, sag isn't a problem because the ski assy. should be operated from the end cheeks, therefore the depth of cut will remain constant. Using smooth rods with threaded ends makes for almost instant adjustment of the router when required.
> In conclusion, there is no law which dictates how individuals use a ski set-up, whichever way suits, use, all I'm attempting to do is give the benefit of my long experience using skis with great success.


We don't have anymore American steel. It's all imported. We import almost everything now.:help:http://www.routerforums.com/images/smilies/help.gif


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## Frank Lee (Nov 29, 2008)

Buy / create long bit---line bore to new or next size. Same process they used to bore poured babbet bearings, possibility, Frank---kingman A z.


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## Frank Lee (Nov 29, 2008)

There is a test process ( Rinelle , I believe ) that will answer that question with hardness. Again Harry no "eye test", LOL . Gaday Sir , Frank---Kingman, Az. U S A


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

levon said:


> thanks Ron, i will be waiting.


Levon: look here...

http://www.routerforums.com/show-n-tell/18466-skis-under-magnifying-glass.html#post150371


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

harrysin said:


> as with tightening router collets, one must not over-tighten. As I mentioned elsewhere in this thread, sag isn't a problem because the ski assy. should be operated from the end cheeks, therefore the depth of cut will remain constant. Using smooth rods with threaded ends makes for almost instant adjustment of the router when required.
> In conclusion, there is no law which dictates how individuals use a ski set-up, whichever way suits, use, all I'm attempting to do is give the benefit of my long experience using skis with great success.


My tightening gauge is to use the two wrench system and squeeze with one hand. I've got a reasonable grip, but nothing fantastic. The worst scenario is to have to use a spindle lock.

I will agree with your comments above Harry but I must also point out that setup method will have substantial influence on the end result. If you setup the height of the rods from the table and then tighten the router to the rods, your operation is predictable. If you setup the skis using the router base, your router will be set to an unknown and your work will reflect that. 

I've also discovered, in my case on an M12V, my left side and right side of my router do not sit the same way on the rods. I've begun to correct for this by inserting a tie-wrap between the router base and the rod in the holes in the base plate.

You state


> there is no law which dictates how individuals use a ski set-up


 however, I'm finding that every different method I use yields results with different characteristics. For example. Ron (Ghidrah) observed that a dado blade left glue channels that cannot be duplicated with a router bit. I found that when a router is tilted slightly on skis such that when slid across the rails with a very shallow cut creates a groove with tearout. These torn fibers along with the groove create an excellent gluing surface. Such "discoveries" are made by accident and seldom planned but all have interesting consequences. It may be that these characteristics can only be created under very specific conditions, hence "a law." 

don't ya just luv "s..t disturbers!"


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

This is good stuff!!!


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## Ghidrah (Oct 21, 2008)

Harrysin,
I couldn't agree more on the benefit of the single use tool when nothing else will do. I have a couple single use hand mades and boughts like insul rod hammered flat and ground to a 1/64" or better to push glue into grain splits, or a skinny screw driver ground down to an 1/8" accute chisel and used to open up the grain on wood so as to hide hand hammered brad heads. I got that one from an old trim man from Georgia. 

My lonely corner chisel and biscuit cutter. 

Question, are the ski cheeks secure enough by the nuts and washers not to flex when you're dragging it back and forth?

At the moment for me a drawback of the ski in its accepted form is the need for a large base to accommodate "cheek" movement. Another relates to an idea I'm mulling about for narrow template and guide routing. A sheet of phenolic would slide free and easy over a couple fixed cheeks with some UHMW stuck to their tops.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

I can't understand why some members are turning ski routing from a very simple concept that has been proven over many years by not only me, but even more so by those that I learned from in the first place, into a science. I suspect that individuals' logic is coming to the fore rather than practical experience. 
Ski routing is not only very useful in many instances but very pleasurable, in an early post, soon after becoming a member of this forum, I likened it to sex, I did however add that I was going by memory!


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## Ghidrah (Oct 21, 2008)

I suppose, but I think flat stock, (sheet or extended base) slid over the top of "cheeks" isn't so far from your process but shrinks the work surface.
If and when I do go through with this it will be specifically for recessed planes within flat surfaces. I don't see anything more single use than that.


Where all think alike, no one thinks very much. - Walter Lippmann (1889 - 1974)


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

harrysin said:


> I can't understand why some members are turning ski routing from a very simple concept that has been proven over many years by not only me, but even more so by those that I learned from in the first place, into a science. I suspect that individuals' logic is coming to the fore rather than practical experience.
> Ski routing is not only very useful in many instances but very pleasurable, in an early post, soon after becoming a member of this forum, I likened it to sex, I did however add that I was going by memory!


Hi Harry:

It's called learning. You and Tom presented us with excellent tools in their infancy. It is our generation (Ok, use persons of distorted imaginations) that will take your tool and expand the boundaries until your tool is unrecognizable. Look what happened to ships -- for centuries rigging, masts, sails were the norm -- today you can't even find a mast on most ships. 

Maybe in a century or so the router will be replaced with a laser cutter running on skis and you started the whole thing. Gee I wonder if in a century when a guy lops off a finger is he going to blame you?


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