# I'm gonna need some advice on this one



## Bob N (Oct 12, 2004)

The little lady of the house, you know, the one who makes the rules,  has decided she needs a spice rack for some spice bottles given to her for Christmas. She is into period and antique stuff and has requested that I make her this little rack with quater moon ends (see pictures below). I have no problem with the spice rack itself, but I have a BIG problem trying to figure out how to route those roundovers on the table and still count to 10 on my fingers when finished. Also need some help on preventing chipout as well. I plan on cutting the quarter moons on the bandsaw and then going from there.

Okay, here's your chance to help a fellow wood worker keep his fingers so I can keep turning on the lathe after I finish this little honey do job


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## Bogydave (Nov 14, 2008)

I'm not a pro at this but I would cut the arc of the 1/4 moons on a larger board, do the round overs, then cut to size.
You could also use double sided tape to hold in place, use the larger pattern board to ride the bearing on.


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## CharleyL (Feb 28, 2009)

I would do the roundovers on a router table using a 2 screw wood clamp to hold the part and keep my fingers away from the bit. A couple of strips of wood might need to be added with screws or hot melt glue to each flat edge of the part for the clamp to grip to. Some sticky backed coarse sandpaper on the jaws of the clamp will also help to keep the part from pulling free of the clamp.

You could also round over these end parts while they are still attached to a larger piece of wood, then cut them free after the roundover step is complete. A backer board (scrap strip of wood) clamped against the trailing end of the roundover will prevent the part from chipping. It will chip out instead of the part when the router bit crosses it.

Charley


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## levon (Sep 14, 2008)

Bob, also as an inexperienced person at the risk of sounding dumb, couldnt you make a circle, round it over then cut into quarters? would that be too risky?


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## levon (Sep 14, 2008)

im sure my thoughts wont work, but i do like the clean straight forward design of the rack.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Bob

Here's just one way with blind dovetail joints and a easy to make jig..
and a bit with the bearing on the bottom ( pattern bit) or a brass guide mounted in the router table..

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Bob said:


> The little lady of the house, you know, the one who makes the rules,  has decided she needs a spice rack for some spice bottles given to her for Christmas. She is into period and antique stuff and has requested that I make her this little rack with quater moon ends (see pictures below). I have no problem with the spice rack itself, but I have a BIG problem trying to figure out how to route those roundovers on the table and still count to 10 on my fingers when finished. Also need some help on preventing chipout as well. I plan on cutting the quarter moons on the bandsaw and then going from there.
> 
> Okay, here's your chance to help a fellow wood worker keep his fingers so I can keep turning on the lathe after I finish this little honey do job


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Bj, what happened to keep it super simple, I'm sure that Bob doesn't intend to go into mass production.
For a one off I'd make an MDF male template about 3/8" thick on the bandsaw, jigsaw or whatever saw is handy, clean it up by sanding, using double sided carpet tape attach it to the roughly cut end cheeks and on the router table using a roundover bearing cutter go around the arc. For this operation it's essential to use the fence or starting pin when feeding into the cutter, rotating in an anti-clockwise direction. The whole operation won't take much longer than it has taken to pen these words of wisdom.

This edit is to add an after thought, why not be a little more adventurous and instead of a boring roundover something possibly like this.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Harry

This is a KISS jig,,,I know you don't use the brass guides in the router table but it's so easy,,,cut and sand one pattern, put in some blank stock no guide pin needed ,the jig has a place to get on and off the jig,, you don't need to pre cut the blank if you don't want to,, the brass guide and the bit will do all the work...the knobs are not a must have item but it makes it easy to use the jig for other patterns as well just slip them in place and lock it down no tape needed as well just a KISS jig will do all the and will always come right out on the button every time...

The blind dovetail joints are not a must have item,he can just screw it and plug the holes like the picture..

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harrysin said:


> Bj, what happened to keep it super simple, I'm sure that Bob doesn't intend to go into mass production.
> For a one off I'd make an MDF male template about 3/8" thick on the bandsaw, jigsaw or whatever saw is handy, clean it up by sanding, using double sided carpet tape attach it to the roughly cut end cheeks and on the router table using a roundover bearing cutter go around the arc. For this operation it's essential to use the fence or starting pin when feeding into the cutter, rotating in an anti-clockwise direction. The whole operation won't take much longer than it has taken to pen these words of wisdom.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

I agree with you Bob if you already have the jig, but for a one off, who is going to make that terrific jig, probably only those who's main source of enjoyment is making jigs and fixtures, don't laugh Bob, there are such people, I was one when I first got my metal lathe!


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

HI Harry

As you know it's hard to make two of anything the same way..you can always make a pair by sticking them together and cut both at the same time BUT they are not true copies of each other the norm..once the router bit is used on them.......

I'm just saying if it worth doing it's worth doing it right..  or try too ..

I guess that's why I make so many jigs  I know I can do it one time but can I do it more than once and in the same way...I don't think so with out the help from a jig.. 

Ping/Pong Harry

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harrysin said:


> I agree with you Bob if you already have the jig, but for a one off, who is going to make that terrific jig, probably only those who's main source of enjoyment is making jigs and fixtures, don't laugh Bob, there are such people, I was one when I first got my metal lathe!


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## woodnthings (Jan 30, 2009)

*Rights and lefts*

Bob, Forum Moderator, Bob, Unless my eyes deceive me you've got unequal length sides on these beauties and therefore need right hand and left hand pieces. EH? A circle cut into quarters woundn't quite work. However a piece shaped like a fingernail might. Just sticky tape the piece together with a 1/4' riser the same shape for the bearing to ride on, to the bench after sanding it smooth and run the profile with a bearing on the bottom. Cut it in half and use butt joints...or pre cut a dado down the backside centered on the cut and another at right angles for a rabbeted construction. Cut away everything that doesn't look like your project. Your done. That's my advice to you,Bill


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

bobj3 said:


> HI Harry
> 
> As you know it's hard to make two of anything the same way..you can always make a pair by sticking them together and cut both at the same time BUT they are not true copies of each other the norm..once the router bit is used on them.......
> 
> ...


Bearing in mind that it's wood we're talking about, who is going to visit Bob armed with a laser guided micrometer. Nobody has eyes that can differentiate between one side 6" and the other side 6.005", and doing it the way I suggested wouldn't give an error much greater than that. I reckon by this time Bob's head is spinning so let us settle down and leave him to sort the wheat from the chaff and find another subject for us to "discuss".


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## Gerard_sr (Dec 7, 2008)

*Harry,* you know as soon as he makes *ONE*, the wife will want *ANOTHER* to give to a friend or a friend will then ask for *ONE*.
*I tend to agree with Bob in principal on this one. *
A simple jig would be the best way to still have all ten digits upon completion of the project and insure the next replication would be of the same quality.

*Dave also drives a good point* that a larger workpiece should be used and then cut to size.

*IMHO: I would use both methods. *Start with a larger workpiece, rout the groves that the shelves would sit in first on the insides of a pair of workpieces, accounting for the eventual trimming to both the contour with a second jig or template and accounting for trimming off the back and bottoms to size. Next the second template would give the contour. At this point I would also rout the quarter rounds on the exterior contoured edges. Finally I would trim the workpieces to size so that the back and bottom routs would become rabbits to hold the bottom shelf and the back of the top shelf. Method of attachment; small nails and glue on back and bottom, glue on top shelf.

But you know as soon as this nice piece is done, she'll want you to spray paint the lids so they match!


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## Ghidrah (Oct 21, 2008)

Do it this way,
Cut a 5.5X5.5 piece of 1X6,strike a line through the corners to locate true center. Strike a line from the sides through the center to create the 4 quadrants. 

Start with the straight bit then switch to the round over or whatever. The lines will allow you to adjust the size of each quadrant.

I believe if you 1st rip from 0° to 180° then 270° to 90° you'll have matching pairs.

http://www.routerforums.com/attachm...1232492950-lost-router-land-circle-cutter.jpg


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## Bob N (Oct 12, 2004)

WOW! I love this place including the ping pong :sold:

Looks like I need to study all these nice posts during the day and see what I come up with. It is much too early and I have not had enough coffee yet to make sense with anything.

Thanks to everyone who has come to my rescue with a reply.


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## kerrye (Feb 27, 2009)

This may be a simplistic way of looking at the project but I would turn the roundovers on a lathe with a faceplate then cut the disc in four pieces. Much faster.


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## curiousgeorge (Nov 6, 2006)

Hey, Bob. Another entry from the peanut gallery.
The way I made these shelves was to cut a circle (I used a band saw), round over the edges and cut in half. Of course you would want to cut into quarters. Can't get much simpler than that.


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## Bob N (Oct 12, 2004)

George,

I think you are reading my mind at this point


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## a1tomo (Dec 3, 2008)

I think Bogydave has the correct answer. 2 cents please.


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## Bob N (Oct 12, 2004)

Tom,

Yes, Dave has a great answer also.... matter of fact, there are a bunch of good answers  I just got to think about which one fits my limited skills the best


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## template tom (Sep 18, 2004)

*Routing with Safety*

Bob

Since no one else has mentioned the use of the template guides, I will, and the only reason for suggesting the guides is, *routing with safety*.

This is a typical project where the guides can be used and if more details of sizes and material are submitted I will prepare a drawing on how I would attempt to produce such an article. It will involve putting two screw holes on the underside of the sides of the rack, which can be covered up and painted as that seems to be the finish shown.

I think the whole project material could be inserted into the Jig Holder I have designed, and come out complete with shape, edge moulding and also the grooves on the inside.

This is a sample of a project that I would have my blind clients construct once the templates are produced. At least 2 templates will be required. It can be achieved with *Greater Safety Awareness*, without the use of the router table.

Tom


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## woodnthings (Jan 30, 2009)

*Rights and Lefts Revisited*

Bob, Forum Moderator, Bob,
Hey guy it's 3AM here and I'm thinking here about your question  and my reply, so I got up and made a drawing using a plastic cup and a toothpaste tube, sorry, the drafting table is out in the shop!
To express my idea more clearly here's the sketch/drawing. My point was, the legs of the rounded panels appeared to be of unequal length, hard to tell from the photo! But, if that's the case and if not, then for future use... this will allow more flexibility in the design of your project and others similiar. There are two ways to achieve the "look" in the photo, this is one way. I'll save the other for next time. 
In the drawing: Line A-B is shorter than line AA-BB, to allow for a taller vertical edge on the panel. I have greatly exaggerated this over what appears in the photo for ease of explanation. An optional rabbet is indicated in the section view below. This should be precut on the workpiece before hand for safety reasons, if such a detail is used. Hope this makes sense.
If one were to use only the profile between AA and A the shape would appear "whacked off" so to speak visually, and not as pleasant to the eye. By using the profile BB to B, exaggerated, the end result is "better" looking, my opinion.This is an old designers trick to fool the eye, and doesn't take much. Hope this helps,
I just learned to "zoom in" under "page" on the toolbar to 200% which makes the image larger.wow.
Well , it's later now 4:04 AM so I'll post the other version too. It's what I call the "Modern Look" as opposed to the "Retro" look in the photo and instead of coming off the radius at the 90 dregree tangents, you come off at an acute angle, giving it a "speedier" look, in my opinion. bill

BOB, from our conversation in PMs can I quote?: "I can say this much, you have the sharpest eye of anyone I have ever met by seeing that little variation in measurement. You are right though as the measurements do show the height at 4.5" and the depth at 4". I guess at this point, I could make the thing any size I want since it will not be an exact replica." We are only here to help! And therfore you will need Rights and Lefts. Our discussion evolved from how to make it, to one about design, which then gets back to how to make it. "All that meets the eye is not that which it appears"...
applies to the finer sex as well as in woodworking! or some such thing...It's been great! Later, bill


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## Bob N (Oct 12, 2004)

Bill,

Thanks for the drawings, they really helped me understand how the change in size is altered. I appreciate you taking the time to provide that and think that others will benefit from it as well. I apologize that my request caused you loss of sleep at 3 AM though


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## Bob N (Oct 12, 2004)

Template Tom,

Here are the dimensions given to me. I appreciate your offer and would love to see what you come up with. For some reason, doing this on the router table is not appealing to me and make my fingers want to hide in my pockets 

Measurements:
Height: 4.5"
Front of bottom shelf to the very back of the rack: 4"
Thickness of end pieces: .75" (end pieces are beveled/rounded off on the front outside edge)
Thickness of top shelf pieces and back piece: .25"
Thickness of bottom shelf: 5/8"
Depth of shelves: 1.75" 
Bottom shelf has a little piece on the front, rounded off at the corners, thickness .25" to keep the bottles on the shelf
Length of shelves for 12 bottles: 10.75"
Length of shelves for 18 bottles: 17"
Large bottle size with lid on: 4 1/8" tall; 1.75" square
Small bottle size with lid on: 3 5/8" tall; 1 7/16" square

Thanks for any help you can offer.


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## woodnthings (Jan 30, 2009)

*There's nothing I would rather have been doing....*



Bob said:


> Bill,
> 
> Thanks for the drawings, they really helped me understand how the change in size is altered. I appreciate you taking the time to provide that and think that others will benefit from it as well. I apologize that my request caused you loss of sleep at 3 AM though


Well, maybe a couple of things, but glad to be of service here, Bill


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## Ghidrah (Oct 21, 2008)

I Added numbers and color to an 11" WoodNthings graphic diagram.

If you strike the centers and offsets on square stock before creating the circle and rnding it over it can make setting a parallel block for ripping the quadrants easier.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Ron's way will do it just right but I would suggest b/4 you make it round put the blind dovetail/dado slots in place then make it round. in that way you can hide the joints for the shelf(s) 


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Ghidrah said:


> I Added numbers and color to an 11" WoodNthings graphic diagram.
> 
> If you strike the centers and offsets on square stock before creating the circle and rnding it over it can make setting a parallel block for ripping the quadrants easier.


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## Lemuzz (Jul 25, 2008)

template tom said:


> Bob
> 
> Since no one else has mentioned the use of the template guides, I will, and the only reason for suggesting the guides is, *routing with safety*.
> 
> ...


There are vacuum generators and suction cups available at reasonable cost (probably less than $100.00) which use a small amount of compressed air to create the vacuum. These are excellent for holding smooth objects firmly and for anyone wanting to hold small items would be an invaluable investment. Not to mention a finger saver


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## Bob N (Oct 12, 2004)

Thanks for the Drawings Ron, they are very helpful. I never knew there were so many ways to slice a pie. 

Everyone has been so very helpful on this and I don't even know how to begin to say thanks.


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## woodnthings (Jan 30, 2009)

*A Brief Design Lesson*

This will be, Ok should be, my final post in this thread...you just never know!
The sketch below shows 2 radiused ends. Fig 1 has equal length sides and looks like someone took a quarter of a circle and made it fit. It's looks OK, but, it would look better if at least one side was longer as required in Tom"s sketch and that side would therefore have "lead in". When both side have a little lead in it looks the best. AND JUST WHO Do I think I am saying all this?
It's me woodnthings, 4yrs of architectural design in high school, 7 yrs of Industrial Design at the University of Illinois, 1 yr as an Instructor, 31 yrs at General Moters Design Staff, Warren Michigan, designing and modeling cars, appliances, motor homes trucks, buses, Corvettes and other secret government jobs! Now keep in mind this is only my opinion, but it comes with some street creds.  Ok guys, I'm outta here! bill


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## Bob N (Oct 12, 2004)

WOW Bill........ I don't think anyone can argue those credentials. 

Thanks again for so much!


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## template tom (Sep 18, 2004)

Bob At first I thought the shape could be part of an ellipse. When I set out to draw it, I came back to part of a circle with straight edges top and bottom (of different lengths),as has been suggested by others which I agree with. The dimension at the bottom was changed to suit what you had posted 4" to the outside of the shelf to the back. With the 1/4" for the face to prevent the bottles from slipping off. It may be a good idea to have both shelves sloping slightly toward the back. Design feature. 

If this is the shape you want, please confirm and I will submit a drawing with regards to the making of a template to rout the shape with safety. Maybe this could be a start to those who wish to try and use the template guides as the technique I will present will be using template guides exclusively and when the piece of material is inserted it will come out of the Jig holder complete no need for the router table.

With a second template the grooves for the shelves and back will also be inserted.

Tom


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## template tom (Sep 18, 2004)

Lemuzz said:


> There are vacuum generators and suction cups available at reasonable cost (probably less than $100.00) which use a small amount of compressed air to create the vacuum. These are excellent for holding smooth objects firmly and for anyone wanting to hold small items would be an invaluable investment. Not to mention a finger saver


Murray
Thanks for the reminder, but really they are not really suitable for this project IMHO. I did look as these some 25 years ago when I was in cabinetmaking. I suppose they were handy for holding flat material for working on but when it comes to shaping and adding trenches I did not rate them suitable.

Tom


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## template tom (Sep 18, 2004)

bobj3 said:


> Ron's way will do it just right but I would suggest b/4 you make it round put the blind dovetail/dado slots in place then make it round. in that way you can hide the joints for the shelf(s)
> 
> 
> =========


Bobj3

I suppose I would also use the blind dovetail though I would not suggest it at this stage. 

But now you have made the suggestion BJ maybe you could submit just how you would do it. I am sure there would be a number of interested router users wishing to learn new routing techniques
Tom


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## template tom (Sep 18, 2004)

woodnthings said:


> This will be, Ok should be, my final post in this thread...you just never know!
> The sketch below shows 2 radiused ends. Fig 1 has equal length sides and looks like someone took a quarter of a circle and made it fit. It's looks OK, but, it would look better if at least one side was longer as required in Tom"s sketch and that side would therefore have "lead in". When both side have a little lead in it looks the best. AND JUST WHO Do I think I am saying all this?
> It's me woodnthings, 4yrs of architectural design in high school, 7 yrs of Industrial Design at the University of Illinois, 1 yr as an Instructor, 31 yrs at General Moters Design Staff, Warren Michigan, designing and modeling cars, appliances, motor homes trucks, buses, Corvettes and other secret government jobs! Now keep in mind this is only my opinion, but it comes with some street creds.  Ok guys, I'm outta here! bill


Bill

I admire your workmanship and obviously you have a great deal of experience I am sure we can all learn from others. What about submitting your answer on how to make the object with greater safety awareness as that was what was asked for in the beginning. How can this be done safely.

I am prepared to provide my interpretation of how I would go about producing the project and like you I have had over 60 years experience working with wood, teaching others, providing Professional development. establishing a cabinetmaking business, and even teaching blind people how to use the router. I am convinced you and I can give assistance to members of the forum and it would be of interest to me to see how someone else would tackle the problem.
Tom


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## Bob N (Oct 12, 2004)

template tom said:


> Bob At first I thought the shape could be part of an ellipse. When I set out to draw it, I came back to part of a circle with straight edges top and bottom (of different lengths),as has been suggested by others which I agree with. The dimension at the bottom was changed to suit what you had posted 4" to the outside of the shelf to the back. With the 1/4" for the face to prevent the bottles from slipping off. It may be a good idea to have both shelves sloping slightly toward the back. Design feature.
> 
> If this is the shape you want, please confirm and I will submit a drawing with regards to the making of a template to rout the shape with safety. Maybe this could be a start to those who wish to try and use the template guides as the technique I will present will be using template guides exclusively and when the piece of material is inserted it will come out of the Jig holder complete no need for the router table.
> 
> ...


Tom,

I would like to confirm the above and respectfully request your offered assistance in this project. I think many besides myself will learn much from what you are offering. Thanks so much for taking the time to teach us.


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## template tom (Sep 18, 2004)

Bob said:


> Tom,
> 
> I would like to confirm the above and respectfully request your offered assistance in this project. I think many besides myself will learn much from what you are offering. Thanks so much for taking the time to teach us.


Bob

It will be a pleasure to have the opportunity to demonstrate the versatility of the template guides, but we must also accept the offer of others to submit their solution to producing the article. I too would like to learn new routing techniques presented by others.
Tom


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## template tom (Sep 18, 2004)

Sorry Bob I forgot to include the drawing. Just as a matter of interest I was also dreaming up the method I would use in the wee small hours also I have a couple of designs for the end panels as well I suppose I really should go into my work shop and produce the item. Though I am convinced what I have in my mind will work I really should make the end items before I post them.
Tom


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## woodnthings (Jan 30, 2009)

*WoW! 60 yrs of Experience, no wonder you know so much!*



template tom said:


> Bill
> 
> I admire your workmanship and obviously you have a great deal of experience I am sure we can all learn from others. What about submitting your answer on how to make the object with greater safety awareness as that was what was asked for in the beginning. How can this be done safely.
> 
> ...


 Tom, You are by far more qualified than I to recommend a safe method for making the pieces, as most of my expertise and career was spent trying to keep young enthusiastic students and designers down to earth! My free time was spent creating things that were of interest or necessity to me.For those many years at GM I worked in the wax clay that softens with 150 degree heat. Unlike wood, clay can be added back on without embarrassment! My first post #11, in this incredibly long series suggests dadoing the back sides first at right angles, leaving extra for a saw kerf, making the template and double sticking it to the bench or other, and routing the profiles with a roundover and a bottom bearing. That would be my approach, but I am quite limited in experience compared to you and others here. My lengthy comments were more about the design, than the fabrication since that is my background. As someone here said recently a new approach sometimes comes from one who doesn't know any better! Or says "what if" and then takes a different road than the familiar.
Router Forums: Where the Inspiration and Information is Free! 
Can I leave now? bill


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## template tom (Sep 18, 2004)

template tom said:


> Sorry Bob I forgot to include the drawing. Just as a matter of interest I was also dreaming up the method I would use in the wee small hours also I have a couple of designs for the end panels as well I suppose I really should go into my work shop and produce the item. Though I am convinced what I have in my mind will work I really should make the end items before I post them.
> Tom


Bob

I have a problem

I started by drawing the project in imperial measurement and I must confess I got bogged down with trying to do the calculations necessary to complete the drawings. Now I know why I do not see any projects submitted to the forum with the aid of the guides. 

Contrary to what has been submitted recently to the forum about the pros and cons of both systems, the metric system *is much easier* to use to make all the calculations. There was no way I could possibly present the solution other than in metric form.

If the metric calculations are acceptable to you I will continue with the second section of the project - routing the grooves for the shelves etc. I have produced the drawing to make the shape of the ends also adding the moulding to the edge, all done with safety, if today I get time to put together the Jig and Template I have designed I will submit a photo shoot of the project.

Tom


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## Bob N (Oct 12, 2004)

Thanks Tom, I have no problem with metrics. I even have metric rules in my shop  Let's keep going forward as I think many will get something from this. Thanks for all your time and help.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

I agree with you Bob, lets keep going forward................will somebody, anybody, please make a flipping spice rack!


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Harry

I was going to but what a pain  all this over a spice rack.. LOL LOL



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harrysin said:


> I agree with you Bob, lets keep going forward................will somebody, anybody, please make a flipping spice rack!


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## template tom (Sep 18, 2004)

bobj3 said:


> Hi Harry
> 
> I was going to but what a pain  all this over a spice rack.. LOL LOL
> 
> ...


Come on BobJ3

Make the effort to detail how you would do it. It will be a good comparison as I suppose you would use the router table and I would use the template Guides. We can all learn from this project who knows I may have to admit the table method is better and Bob I am willing to do just that if that is the case. So let's both of us, present our method of achieving the spice rack. Not really a big project to do is it?.
Tom


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Bj, It appears that not everybody believes that you and I and countless other members are capable of making a spice rack!!!!

For those who want a simple super fast to make spice rack, here is a 15minute one just glued together.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Harry

I guess not,,, the last one I made was in high school wood shop class for my mom,with 4 card drawers if I recall  and 4 shelfs out of 3/8" thick hardwood... it was a real tank that could hold 48 jars of spice 



=======



harrysin said:


> Bj, It appears that not everybody believes that you and I and countless other members are capable of making a spice rack!!!!
> 
> For those who want a simple super fast to make spice rack, here is a 15minute one just glued together.


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## template tom (Sep 18, 2004)

BobJ3 and Harry

Bob's problem is not being answered with what has been posted. If the original post presented is fully understood Bob also has no problem making the spice rack he was asking for help to keep his fingers when producing the two ends. 

Part of Bob's original post

_*"I have no problem with the spice rack itself, but I have a BIG problem trying to figure out how to route those roundovers on the table and still count to 10 on my fingers when finished.* Also need some help on preventing chipout as well. I plan on cutting the quarter moons on the bandsaw and then going from there."_

As you can see, he had a plan and was wondering if it was a good plan

Bob continues
*"Okay, here's your chance to help a fellow wood worker keep his fingers so I can keep turning on the lathe after I finish this little honey do job"* 

I fail to see any suggestions on how he should go about the process he was asking about. 

BobJ3 With all your experience I thought you would at least say, I'll go and prepare a method for Bob to follow which would be of interest to many others. It's not about being able to make a Spice rack it's about finding a safe method to shape the ends.

Tom


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Tom 

I did 
http://www.routerforums.com/103674-post6.html

I know you don't think it's safe but it is ..your hands all always on the jig..and a place for the bearing to get on the jig and to get off the jig or with the brass guide in the same way  many like to use the start/safety pin but I don't care for the pin the norm..it has it's place but not in this case... 

========




template tom said:


> BobJ3 and Harry
> 
> Bob's problem is not being answered with what has been posted. If the original post presented is fully understood Bob also has no problem making the spice rack he was asking for help to keep his fingers when producing the two ends.
> 
> ...


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## template tom (Sep 18, 2004)

*Spice Rack*

Bob
Sorry I fail to see the connection to the problem that was asked. There is no shape of the project presented with your jigs. I wonder if others were able to follow your presentation.
Tom


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Tom

The jig can be used for many profiles,,the pattern is cut out and locked into place...it's so easy to cut the profile out to match what Bob wanted to do..

One jig for many jobs..

=========



template tom said:


> Bob
> Sorry I fail to see the connection to the problem that was asked. There is no shape of the project presented with your jigs. I wonder if others were able to follow your presentation.
> Tom


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Every body who has been on this forum for more than five minutes knows that I'm a great believer in female templates, template guides and plunge routing, BUT, as I have said on dozens if not hundreds of occasions, for a one off simple project, the average woodworker, amateur or professional is not going to spend more time designing jigs, let alone making them, than the project itself is going to take. The methods that have been used for many years, whilst not as safe as plunge routing using guides and female templates, are nevertheless, inherently safe as evidenced by the low number of reported accidents.

The photo. shows just a few of my most used templates and jigs.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

I just asked my darling wife if she would like me to make the most beautiful spice rack that she had ever slapped eyes on and you know what she said, No thanks darling, all those kind of things are on the inside of the pantry door but if you're in the mood to do something for me, how about fixing our two bedroom touch lamps. So folks, tomorrow I may do a photo shoot in the lobby on how to repair touch lamps.


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## Lemuzz (Jul 25, 2008)

Bob said:


> The little lady of the house, you know, the one who makes the rules,  has decided she needs a spice rack for some spice bottles given to her for Christmas. She is into period and antique stuff and has requested that I make her this little rack with quater moon ends (see pictures below). I have no problem with the spice rack itself, but I have a BIG problem trying to figure out how to route those roundovers on the table and still count to 10 on my fingers when finished. Also need some help on preventing chipout as well. I plan on cutting the quarter moons on the bandsaw and then going from there.
> 
> Okay, here's your chance to help a fellow wood worker keep his fingers so I can keep turning on the lathe after I finish this little honey do job


On a scrap of 12mm MDF say about 400 X 400 cut the quarter round on a corner. Clamp this pattern to a piece of MDF or ply that you intend using for the ends, also much larger than your finished ends will be, perhaps also 400mm square (Any size large enough to allow you to clamp the two pieces together and still allow you to work round the clamps.)and cut the corner as per your pattern, flip the pattern over and on the adjacent corner do the same. Then with your round over bit run round the edge past your eventual finished sizes. At this stage if you want to house the shelves and backs into the ends, flip the sheet over and cut the slots to acept these in the correct position. (you could make a simple jig for this to give you the correct angle and position from 2 edges)
Then cut the ends to size using your router with a straight bit, or saw. You will still have all your digits intact.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

How long does it take to make a spice rack. Hasn't someone, somewhere made one to show us?


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## Bob N (Oct 12, 2004)

Be patient Harry.... we are getting there


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## xplorx4 (Dec 1, 2008)

Bob said:


> Be patient Harry.... we are getting there


That is just too good!!!   Or said a different way "How cool is that?"


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## template tom (Sep 18, 2004)

harrysin said:


> How long does it take to make a spice rack. Hasn't someone, somewhere made one to show us?


Harry as I have said in a previous post that it is not about making a spice rack it is about posting a safe way to produce the small shapes for the ends.

Tom


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Doesn't that confirm what I have said,"the average woodworker whether amateur or pro. will not, for a ONE OFF straightforward project take more time to design the templates, and I'm sure you are using a CAD program, and even longer to make the templates than it's going to take to make the actual project" I'm not going behind your back on this, I've said it to your face many times over the last few years.


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## template tom (Sep 18, 2004)

harrysin said:


> Doesn't that confirm what I have said,"the average woodworker whether amateur or pro. will not, for a ONE OFF straightforward project take more time to design the templates, and I'm sure you are using a CAD program, and even longer to make the templates than it's going to take to make the actual project" I'm not going behind your back on this, I've said it to your face many times over the last few years.


Harry
I have on many occasions gone to all the trouble to produce a jig and template for the construction of a ONE OFF straightforward project when I was refurbishing executive aircraft, or the project could not have been completed. That was where I first found out about the use of the template guides some 25 years ago. 

Yes I agree that the average pro and amateur would not go to the all the bother, but I am sure that the majority of pros and amateurs have not taken time to fully understand the advantages of the use of the template guides.

When I first started using the template guides I never had a computer to use Cad programs and I suppose my knowledge of technical drawing was a great advantage as I put pen to paper(MDF boards in those days) Yes I have progressed to using CAD which was not an easy progress to drawing when I first purchased the program.

I reiterate the problem is not making the object it is *making it with safety *and I am totally convinced that it is better to take the time in the preparation of the jigs and templates than spend a few hours in hospital. and then missing out on some woodworking waiting for the injury to heal. 

Good to hear from you.
Tom


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## Ralph Barker (Dec 15, 2008)

harrysin said:


> How long does it take to make a spice rack. Hasn't someone, somewhere made one to show us?


With the right design, it takes only a pinch of thyme, Harry.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Bob

I know your a fan of the RWS like I am,,,pull your COPY out of Bob R. making a corner shelf ( 3 tear ) note the jig he is using to make the shelfs,,the same jig can be use to make the ends for your project with the plunge router...with just a little bit of rework to the jig,,it's base on the circle cutting jig but a neat way Bob R. came up with to get the job done easy and quick ,the KISS way 



Just a add on ******** I know you must have this done by now, but I took the time to copy this off the TV and I guess I should post it so others can see how easy it can be done with Bob's R. jig.

=========

===============


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## template tom (Sep 18, 2004)

BJ

I was wondering where the template guide insert played a part. But on reflection it was not a template guide. 

I'm guessing here, was the brass bush used to connect the router to the circle cutting jig?.

Note; Using the circle cutting jig from the position shown will not produce the shape required unless it was used from a new centre point located on the material itself, and I suppose the point could be concealed on the inside surface. If that is the case then a second jig will also be required to hold the material to rout the other end.

Really is a simple method of producing the shapes with a simple circle cutting jig. KISS.

I was hoping some others would come up with a method, keeping in mind it is a fairly small item to work on, and as the original Bob had asked for was a safe method let's keep it safe. The final project produced with your method should also be posted, I find it pointless submiting a 'TRY THIS' approach we should be prepared to submit the finished article.

I have already sent some details to Bob to try, before I post my solution to the problem, and I suppose what he produces will tell me it was a safe method or not. I have also sent Bob photographs of the finished article. 

My suggestion to Bob was to not only rout the shape but also insert the Trenches for the small shelving at the same time. The material is placed in a Jig holder and not only routing the overall shape but apply a moulding to the edge. Two end pieces are placed in the jig holder and with the aid of two templates they are completed before they are removed from the Jig. 

I personally know that they can be achieved with safety, as I have already completed the shapes before I am willing to post a solution.

I know this is not an exercise on making Spice racks, it is a decision making time 'Can it be done with safety'? if not then scrap the idea.

This is a good project that could be introduced to our schools and I am sure Bj it will be achieved using different techniques that was demonstrated in your school days, when you produced the Spice rack, you referred to in an earlier post.

I will await Bob's reply to what I have sent him.

Tom


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Tom

brass guide
see picture 6516a in my 1st. post..

I'm sorry you don't get the RWS show on the PBS TV,,,I forget sometimes you are not one of the lucky ones to see Bob R. and Rick R. do the magic on/with the router table..

That's what got me hear in the 1st.place and many others I'm sure..

I know you think the plunge router is the only way to do it safe, but it's not, I see Bob R. and Rick R. both have all their fingers and no band aids every ... they push safety on every show they do.. it's the 1st. thing they do on every show.. 

======




=======


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## template tom (Sep 18, 2004)

Hi BobJ.

Sorry I don't see how the Brass guide is used in the last posting you put up, it certainly was not used in the same way as your first posting you referred me to.

I did comment of the final shape achieved using your method which is not really what was wanted, so how would you fix the problem. I certainly can see how the shape could be produced using the router table as long as a template is produced exactly to the shape and I agree it could be done safely as long as it was screwed as shown in your latest sketch posted which is no different to making a template and working in the plunge mode where additional advantage will be the moulding can be added at the same time subject to selecting a suitable cutter is is readily available. That same cutter could also be used in the router table with the jig you propose.

It is now some 40 plus years when I was introduced to the router and I suppose I would have been singing the praises of using it in the table mode as that was how I used it for a great number of those years. 

I still have three routers set up permanently in the table mode and I still use the method on many occasions for certain projects. I am not saying that the plunge mode is the only way to do it safe for everything, but I honestly believe that producing this small item can be produced SAFER in the plunge mode. You have presented your way and I mine I wonder what method Bob will use.

I have in the past conducted router workshops and in that time I introduced the use of the template guides for I found a number of projects that was considered unsafe and in some instances impossible to be achieved in the router table.

The material I am writing about is titled 'Getting more from my router' and I think I have presented a number of projects into my Gallery to show how versatile the router is when it is used in the plunge mode with the aid of the guides. 

If you wish to continue trying to do everything on the router table that is your choice I will proceed to try and convince more router users to 'Get more from their router' with the aid of the guides. Lastly would you consider asking a blind person to produce the article?. I would have every confidence in presenting this project to a totally blind person. 

Members who post to this forum are looking upon you and maybe myself to present methods of producing many items, before I make any postings I will complete the project first, even though it is just a simple spice rack.

Tom


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Tom, as I've told you in the past, the only way in which you will get a big following of your methods in America is to produce complete projects with photo shoots including the design and making of the templates, a bit like I do, rather than the schoolmaster giving homework approach. Just my two pennyworth.


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## Hamlin (Dec 25, 2005)

Hi Bob N.

If you have the RWS dvd series. Series 1, 2nd dvd, episode #114 (wall shelf). Bob an Rick give you the answer.


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## Bob N (Oct 12, 2004)

Thanks Ken and that same episode is on the Woodworking Channel


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## Lemuzz (Jul 25, 2008)

Hi I have risen to the challenge and made a pair of "spice rack ends. The complete project took 40 minutes which included making the template and the ends and sweeping up afterwards. Both hands on the router made this a completely safe way to do it. the only other tool used was a jig saw to rough cut the template and the rounded ends. I now have to get the "other half" to want a spice rack.


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## template tom (Sep 18, 2004)

Lemuzz said:


> Hi I have risen to the challenge and made a pair of "spice rack ends. The complete project took 40 minutes which included making the template and the ends and sweeping up afterwards. Both hands on the router made this a completely safe way to do it. the only other tool used was a jig saw to rough cut the template and the rounded ends. I now have to get the "other half" to want a spice rack.


Congratulations Lemuzz an excellent effort, not sure if you used the template guides or not to rout the trenches but does itmatter it was done with safety in mind.
Tom

Added Sorry Lemuzz I see you did use the guide to rout the trenches.
Tom


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## Lemuzz (Jul 25, 2008)

template tom said:


> Congratulations Lemuzz an excellent effort, not sure if you used the template guides or not to rout the trenches but does itmatter it was done with safety in mind.
> Tom
> 
> Added Sorry Lemuzz I see you did use the guide to rout the trenches.
> Tom


Yes I did use the template guide for the trenches. Doing it again I probably would also for the corners. I used a pattern bit which did the same but could have got away with only two bit changes using the guides, rather than three.


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## template tom (Sep 18, 2004)

harrysin said:


> Tom, as I've told you in the past, the only way in which you will get a big following of your methods in America is to produce complete projects with photo shoots including the design and making of the templates, a bit like I do, rather than the schoolmaster giving homework approach. Just my two pennyworth.


I may present the material as a schoolmaster Harry. It was not home work but suggestions on how to produce the article. I did present the material to Bob and was prepared to guide him through, but the answer I got back was. a request to give him time to digest what I had sent (detailed drawings) and as an ex school teacher that was the correct answer I would have accepted from my students. 

People do not learn from a picture without the details of how the dimensions were first obtained and this was the information I had sent out. I was going to wait so that Bob had an opportunity to at least try what I have submitted to him. Today I set out to produce more pics of the method I have used and the results will be submitted to the forum later.

I was pleased to see Lemuzz submit his method at least some one is really making the effort to answer Bob's question as well.

I would have thought Bj would have come up with a better solution after I had prompted him regarding producing the shape required. 

Tom


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Lemuzz said:


> Hi I have risen to the challenge and made a pair of "spice rack ends. The complete project took 40 minutes which included making the template and the ends and sweeping up afterwards. Both hands on the router made this a completely safe way to do it. the only other tool used was a jig saw to rough cut the template and the rounded ends. I now have to get the "other half" to want a spice rack.


Congratulations Lemuzz, a fine job, conforming to specifications and all in 40 minutes, that's what I consider such a straightforward project should be all about, quick and simple, it's not like a highly complex project, accurate to within a few thou. was called for. My only complaint is that you didn't post enough photos. to show how you made the template, I'm sure many members would like that and proceed to make a spice rack irrespective of whether or not their wives want one! Was CAD involved?


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

template tom said:


> I may present the material as a schoolmaster Harry. It was not home work but suggestions on how to produce the article. I did present the material to Bob and was prepared to guide him through, but the answer I got back was. a request to give him time to digest what I had sent (detailed drawings) and as an ex school teacher that was the correct answer I would have accepted from my students.
> 
> People do not learn from a picture without the details of how the dimensions were first obtained and this was the information I had sent out. I was going to wait so that Bob had an opportunity to at least try what I have submitted to him. Today I set out to produce more pics of the method I have used and the results will be submitted to the forum later.
> 
> ...



What started out as a very basic project is now becoming a long winded, complex work of art which is having details served up a bit at a time. Do you intend to describe all the steps taken to computer design the templates. Probably most members, myself included don't have access to CAD software and probably couldn't use it anyway. What we want is simple photo instructions to enable us to design and make our own templates. As I mentioned in an early post, the dimensions of the end cheeks are such that they can be safely made on the router table using a simple male template, talking about safety, it's just a matter of semantics, the way I suggested has been used since routers were invented.
Don't get me wrong, I'm on record as stating on many occasions that anyone wishing to learn routing should be taught your methods, once learned there will be no routing problem that can't be solved, but such methods can not be taken as the ONLY method, or as the only SAFE method.
I don't want to embarrass Bob, but I personally think that you have placed him in a position where he is obligated to attempt your method, however difficult it turns out to be, friends should never be put under any kind of obligation. Just my 25 cents worth.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

HI Guys

This thread has put me off , I will never try it let alone show how I would do it...from a VERY simple project into a real PITA project...now every time I see this type of project I will think of this thread and what it came to..  a real wood shop 101 project that you would see in high school wood class...

===

======


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## Lemuzz (Jul 25, 2008)

bobj3 said:


> HI Guys
> 
> This thread has put me off , I will never try it let alone show how I would do it...from a VERY simple project into a real PITA project...now every time I see this type of project I will think of this thread and what it came to..  a real wood shop 101 project that you would see in high school wood class...
> 
> ...


Me too. However the question was asking for help to make a potentially hazardous job safe. If we don't offer a safe way to do something are we not failing in our duty to help our fellow man?


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## Lemuzz (Jul 25, 2008)

harrysin said:


> Congratulations Lemuzz, a fine job, conforming to specifications and all in 40 minutes, that's what I consider such a straightforward project should be all about, quick and simple, it's not like a highly complex project, accurate to within a few thou. was called for. My only complaint is that you didn't post enough photos. to show how you made the template, I'm sure many members would like that and proceed to make a spice rack irrespective of whether or not their wives want one! Was CAD involved?


Hi harrysin. I made another template just to photograph for you. No CAD wasn't used nor needed. The template for the slots had dowells the correct distance apart. I had considered dowells to act as stops to position the template angle on the ends but opted against it. If I were to make multiple units I would do so to keep all units the same shape and angle


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Lemuzz

" failing in our duty to help our fellow man? "

You crack me up, hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha LOL LOL hahahaha


=====



Lemuzz said:


> Me too. However the question was asking for help to make a potentially hazardous job safe. If we don't offer a safe way to do something are we not failing in our duty to help our fellow man?


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## template tom (Sep 18, 2004)

*Spice Racks*



harrysin said:


> What started out as a very basic project is now becoming a long winded, complex work of art which is having details served up a bit at a time. Do you intend to describe all the steps taken to computer design the templates. Probably most members, myself included don't have access to CAD software and probably couldn't use it anyway. What we want is simple photo instructions to enable us to design and make our own templates. As I mentioned in an early post, the dimensions of the end cheeks are such that they can be safely made on the router table using a simple male template, talking about safety, it's just a matter of semantics, the way I suggested has been used since routers were invented.
> Don't get me wrong, I'm on record as stating on many occasions that anyone wishing to learn routing should be taught your methods, once learned there will be no routing problem that can't be solved, but such methods can not be taken as the ONLY method, or as the only SAFE method.
> I don't want to embarrass Bob, but I personally think that you have placed him in a position where he is obligated to attempt your method, however difficult it turns out to be, friends should never be put under any kind of obligation. Just my 25 cents worth.


Harry

I certainly have no intension of trying to get others to use the Cad program I have been using for years, which I must confess was important for me to learn the process when I was designing projects and still is. You came in just a little bit too early with your comments as I had sent Bob full size drawings of the template required all that is required was to place them on his blank template and do the cut-out. This was something new that came out of my presentation at the latest wood show, as I was fully aware of the problems of others producing templates. I do not really ask people to try and follow my Cad drawings step by step to produce the template I simple produce FULL SIZE drawings of what is required.

I have appreciated your support in the past to try and get others to use the template guides but even with your knowledge of the method and your presentations I think we are not making much progress that is why i was not submitting to the forum for a number of months. I could not look the other way when Bob made his posting for help and rather than post my material I sent the information to Bob by email for him to make his comments without interference from certain members. It was an opportunity for Bob to try it out. 

There was NO obligation intended for Bob to try the method, he was given the details and I left it to him. We have had further communication and I have sent him some more material (CAD Drawings) which explain the set up a bit more clearly.

Harry this was an ideal opportunity first to try and give advice and also the opportunity to get feed back on whether it was sufficient information or not.

*I have never said this is the ONLY SAFE way* but I have said there may be a safer method of producing many items and I have always looked at the problem before I begin, if it is safe to do it in the table so be it I do it, I have three router set up permanently in three tables, but if I consider it is SAFER to use the plunge mode then that is what I do, even though it does take time to produce the templates.

Tom


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## Lemuzz (Jul 25, 2008)

bobj3 said:


> Hi Lemuzz
> 
> " failing in our duty to help our fellow man? "
> 
> ...


Do you not think this is a safe way???????? and practical??????????? and efficient???????????? Do you have all your fingers as I do?????????? and have a desire to help others as I do??????????


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

HI Murray

" Do you not think this is a safe way " both ways are safe
" and practical " I use both ways
" Do you have all your fingers as I do " yes all of them
" and have a desire to help others as I do " yes, I have, say about 9,000 times or so but only if they truly need it..

Bob N. is very sharp, no real help needed ..he just put it out for the fun of it I think...slow day on the forum maybe 

====






Lemuzz said:


> Do you not think this is a safe way???????? and practical??????????? and efficient???????????? Do you have all your fingers as I do?????????? and have a desire to help others as I do??????????


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## Lemuzz (Jul 25, 2008)

bobj3 said:


> Hi Lemuzz
> 
> " failing in our duty to help our fellow man? "
> 
> ...


The little lady of the house, you know, the one who makes the rules, has decided she needs a spice rack for some spice bottles given to her for Christmas. She is into period and antique stuff and has requested that I make her this little rack with quater moon ends (see pictures below). I have no problem with the spice rack itself, but I have a BIG problem trying to figure out how to route those roundovers on the table and still count to 10 on my fingers when finished. Also need some help on preventing chipout as well. I plan on cutting the quarter moons on the bandsaw and then going from there.

Okay, here's your chance to help a fellow wood worker keep his fingers so I can keep turning on the lathe after I finish this little honey do job 


Hi Bobj3

If you can't read and understand the original question get someone close to you to explain what it means. Bob asked the forum to suggest how to do this and still keep his fingers. I offered a solution lets see you do the same!!!!!


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Lemuzz

" BOB" I plan on cutting the quarter moons on the bandsaw and then going from there."

Like I said Bob, had it down b/4 he posted ..the band saw is the very easy way to do it.. and the best way and the quick way ,, and to round over the edges on his OP table is duck soup..he has done it many times.and he has all his fingers 

It's no big deal 

" I offered a solution lets see you do the same!!!!! "
I did,,, show him the hard way,, If you can't read the other post maybe you should ask someone to give you a hand to find them, see above.. 

=====



Lemuzz said:


> The little lady of the house, you know, the one who makes the rules, has decided she needs a spice rack for some spice bottles given to her for Christmas. She is into period and antique stuff and has requested that I make her this little rack with quater moon ends (see pictures below). I have no problem with the spice rack itself, but I have a BIG problem trying to figure out how to route those roundovers on the table and still count to 10 on my fingers when finished. Also need some help on preventing chipout as well. I plan on cutting the quarter moons on the bandsaw and then going from there.
> 
> Okay, here's your chance to help a fellow wood worker keep his fingers so I can keep turning on the lathe after I finish this little honey do job
> 
> ...


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## Lemuzz (Jul 25, 2008)

bobj3 said:


> HI Murray
> 
> " Do you not think this is a safe way " both ways are safe
> " and practical " I use both ways
> ...


I rest my case lol


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## Hamlin (Dec 25, 2005)

Wow, getting a little off base here aren't we.


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## Lemuzz (Jul 25, 2008)

Hamlin said:


> Wow, getting a little off base here aren't we.


Good to see someone following the post


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## Mark (Aug 4, 2004)

Think we can drive this back on topic guys?


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

I'm afraid that Tom has once again missed my point which is, when a member decides to make a project for his/her sweetheart, that member wants to know how to design templates with the minimum of fuss, not to ask a professional to kindly produce full size plans to follow. I'm dam sure that if members realised how straight forward most templates can be to make, then the chances are that projects will where suitable, be made using female templates and template guides. I am in no way intending to undermine Tom's methods, only his method of presentation, he comes over as aloof and not as a fellow member.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Lemuzz said:


> Hi harrysin. I made another template just to photograph for you. No CAD wasn't used nor needed. The template for the slots had dowells the correct distance apart. I had considered dowells to act as stops to position the template angle on the ends but opted against it. If I were to make multiple units I would do so to keep all units the same shape and angle


Murray, that sounds much more personnel, thanks for doing that, you demonstrated what I hoped you would, no CAD necessary also quick and relatively simple to make and, and you can corner the Sunday markets with spice racks, all identical except for choice of finish.


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## Bob N (Oct 12, 2004)

This thread has totally derailed and no longer has purpose.

Time to close it.


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