# Witness Sticks...



## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

Witness Sticks, this is one subject that I don't recall being discussed and/or mentioned during the time that I have watched this forum.

I find that the use of a measuring tape is limited in it's accuracy. It is a very good and must needed and a very useful tool of course but has it's limitations IMHO.

There are times, and they are quite often, that I use a "Witness Stick" to insure that a cut that I am about make is going to be correct or not and if not an adjustment needs to be tweaked before the final cut is executed. It's just a means of being certain that the fence on the TS is indeed set as close to being correct as I can set it. 

The witness stick as I call it is used for other confirmations on parts of a project that are to large for the dial calipers to be used.

I'm just wondering if other members do what I am referring to or not, I know that many of the members are of the opinion that I go way over board in regard to my hang up about accuracy and what I am talking about here may just be an extention of my accuracy quirk.

An example of what I'm talking about would be when cutting a table top that is to fit inside of an outer frame. If the frame is already contracted and the part of the table top that fits inside of the frame has not been cut, that part of the table top must be cut to exact dimensions so that it fits perfectly inside of the frame, is when I use a WS. 

I first cut a piece of scrap which I call my WS which will be used to check the setting of the fence on the TS before cutting the top to the proper width for example. WS is purposely cut just a tad long. Then by using the Micro Adust on the LS system begin to cut one end off of the WS a little bit at a time until the WS fits perfectly inside of the frame, and then make the cut on the workpiece. I repeat this procedure for the second cut, in this example the length of the workpece.

This insures that that the top will fit properly inside of the frame. In this example the piece has to just be glued inside of the frame and is clamped in place with a strap type clamp while the glue sets up, I do use additional clamps with the strap to insure that the frame is pressed against that interior oart of the table.

Jerry


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## MikeMa (Jul 27, 2006)

I have never used a dedicated witness stick. What I often do, where I need joinery to line up between two boards, is layout it all on the first board, then use that board to mark off the layout points on the second board. Basic same principle.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

I use something similar when I install drawer slides. I have a Richlieu jig that holds the common drawer slide perpendicular to the carcass face and I usually cut a "witness stick" (I just call this a spacer) for each drawer height and I set the jig on top of it to make sure that I get both sides the same height.


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

NiceG316 said:


> I have never used a dedicated witness stick. What I often do, where I need joinery to line up between two boards, is layout it all on the first board, then use that board to mark off the layout points on the second board. Basic same principle.


Mike,
Once again you and I have an issue with our communication, probably all my fault, but what I'm talking about in regard to a witness stick has nothing to do with joinery. I'm talking about get the length of a cut between the blade and the fence of the TS as close to correct as I can get it. I reserve the right to be one that is making this complicated like I so often do.

Jerry


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## MikeMa (Jul 27, 2006)

Then to better answer your question, I have not used such a device.


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

NiceG316 said:


> Then to better answer your question, I have not used such a device.


Mike,
You are experienced and know what your are doing, and so you probably don't have figure out out to do what ever it is that you happen to be working on. 

As a beginner, with nobody to coach me, I personally have to figure out for myself how to do some of this stuff and consequently, I just have to keep experimenting with my ideas to see what will work for me and what will not. That's probably why so much of what I put on the forum sounds so weird to those that are more experienced than I am. 

The example of cutting a table top to fit inside of a frame that is already constructed, presents a problem for me, that being that I can't measure the inside dimensions of the frame with a tape measure close enough to know where to set the fence.

The use of what I am calling a witness stick is the only way that I know how to set the fence properly before making the cut. Perhaps the term witness stick is a poor term, probably is. Call it what ever you want to call it, it's just a piece of scrap that I use to test the setting of the fence with before you make the real cut. All this does is to make sure that I don't make the cut to short and that the fit is good.

If I had a person to show me what is the right way to do some of this stuff I wouldn't have to to come with my own ideas all of the time. 

The reason for this thread is to ask if this method of setting the fence is one that others use or not, I am beginning to think that it is not, just wondered.

Jerry


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

???

Is there any difference between a "Witness Stick" and a "Story Stick"?

If the same, we have discussed "Story Stick's" here for years (by many members). Phil and I had mentioned that many times... and we were not alone in that.


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

MAFoElffen said:


> ???
> 
> Is there any difference between a "Witness Stick" and a "Story Stick"?
> 
> If the same, we have discussed "Story Stick's" here for years (by many members). Phil and I had mentioned that many times... and we were not alone in that.


Mke,
I believe that due to my being relative new to the forum, I wasn't watching when the story sticks were being discussed. I made up the name "Witness Stick" because I didn't know what to call them. I guess that we are on the same page in regard to the subject now.

I will assume that everybody, or at least most of them, knows about what I'm talking about and the answer to my questions is simple. Everybody, or at least most people that are woodworkers know about what I'm talking about. 

I will add that the Incra Micro Adjust is a big help in the procedure.

Jerry


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

MAFoElffen said:


> ???
> 
> Is there any difference between a "Witness Stick" and a "Story Stick"?
> 
> If the same, we have discussed "Story Stick's" here for years (by many members). Phil and I had mentioned that many times... and we were not alone in that.



+1

And I thought you Americans had problems with my speech..........ROTFL.

Jerry, like any trade or hobby there are may words to describe similar actions.

If you search 'story stick', you may find what you are looking for.


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## Dutchmn (Jul 26, 2013)

I would call it a "Reference Stick" : sneaking up on cut on a scrap piece until it fits perfect and then cutting the real piece knowing that the fence is set correctly.


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## BCK (Feb 23, 2014)

I'm sure in some way or another, most woodworkers have used scap for test cuts in many ways and fashions..to make sure the cut will be accurate before doing to the actual piece.....as I know i have sat and cursed myself to many times to mention for being out just enough to have to start a piece over....lol, so a test on scrap is used often...


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

MAFoElffen said:


> ???
> 
> Is there any difference between a "Witness Stick" and a "Story Stick"?
> 
> If the same, we have discussed "Story Stick's" here for years (by many members). Phil and I had mentioned that many times... and we were not alone in that.


I would say the only difference is in the names. I make them when I need them, and always mark any pertinent data on them, so next time I use one, that is if I can still find it, I know just what I need to know. I think I call mine 'measuring sticks', but I know what story sticks are, and that is what mine are. I'm pretty sure the concept is as old as the pyramids, or older, by whatever name.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Jerry Bowen said:


> Mike,
> You are experienced and know what your are doing, and so you probably don't have figure out out to do what ever it is that you happen to be working on.
> 
> As a beginner, with nobody to coach me, I personally have to figure out for myself how to do some of this stuff and consequently, I just have to keep experimenting with my ideas to see what will work for me and what will not. That's probably why so much of what I put on the forum sounds so weird to those that are more experienced than I am.
> ...


Jerry, not true, I have made many attempts via direct email to guide you but you have at all times refused such advice, despite the fact that you asked for it and made it clear that your enjoyment comes not from actually making projects, but from attempting to invent new methods.


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## Gene Howe (Jul 10, 2007)

*Call it what you will.....*

....this works for me.









Not a one time jig and can be almost any length by simply using longer or shorter aluminum bars.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

As they say Gene, "a picture is worth a thousand words"


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

harrysin said:


> Jerry, not true, I have made many attempts via direct email to guide you but you have at all times refused such advice, despite the fact that you asked for it and made it clear that your enjoyment comes not from actually making projects, but from attempting to invent new methods.


Harry,
Snapped my garter one more time didn't you, I'm catching on to you Harry. I still think that you are a great guy, like myself, you have your onw personal little quirks, that's what makes us undividuals, I do things that bug the dickens out of you, it works both ways, just the way it is. I can except it hope you can too.

By the way, so often your advise to me has been such that I don't understand it, so it is of no value to me, not that that there is anything wrong with it, I just don't get it, you don't get it, and then you get after me as illustrated in the remarks above. You have very little tolerance for my ignorance and seems to frustrate you to now end, but I sincerely do appreciate your willingness to be of help to me, that's what makes you such a great guy and why I admire you so much. 

Jerry


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

harrysin said:


> Jerry, not true, I have made many attempts via direct email to guide you but you have at all times refused such advice, despite the fact that you asked for it and made it clear that your enjoyment comes not from actually making projects, but from attempting to invent new methods.



Harry,
When you say "not true" sounds like you are calling me a liar. 

Jerry


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Jerry, I don't intend to have a slanging match with you, just tell me if a single word in my thread is not an accurate summation of emails that have passed between us.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Jerry Bowen said:


> Harry,
> Snapped my guarter one more time didn't you, I'm catching on to you Harry. I still think that you are a great guy, like myself, you have your onw personal little quirks, that's what makes us undividuals, I do things that bug the dicken out of you, it works both ways, just the way it is. I can except it hope you can too.
> 
> By the way, so often your advise to me has been such that I don't understand it, so it is of no value to me, not that that there is anything wrong with it, I just don't get it, you don't get it, and then get after me as illustrated in the remarks above.
> ...


Jerry, as I told you on more than one occasion, most if not all the things that you are inventing have long since been invented in a Superior way, usually by people cleverer than you or me and my remarks were simply intended to illustrate this fact. As I've also told you, don't be so touchy, I and other members are here to help, if genuine answers somehow upset you, well perhaps your questions are just meant to be rhetorical, no answers required. All my answers to you have been complete with photographs with added text which many members appear to understand and usually thank me for. So Jerry, would you please explain what you are hoping to gain from the forum.
This is an edit to remind you Jerry of the kind of guy that I am. I sent you this email in February.

Thank you for the hilarious video. The moment you stop experimenting and start to take notice, not just of me but from all the huge number of posts on the forum, the sooner you will be producing and posting projects that will attract lots of nice comments and no doubt many friendship requests. You will no longer be lonely and have no time to attempt to change members beliefs. This Jerry is sincere advice from someone who does NOT believe he is in any way superior to anyone else, just a very experienced hobbyist woodworker. I eagerly await a series of photographs showing the making of a box, from start to finish. Harry 



Harry,
I'm sure glad that I took your advice about not getting into the exotic wood yet, still dealing with other issues, but getting closer.

Your lonely Bible Basher friend from Texas, I had it coming Harry, I know it,

Jerruy


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Jerry, I don't consider that I'm breaking any confidence by posting this further email exchange in an effort to show members that I don't ridicule anyone, when advice is asked for I go out of my way to give the best that I can, often it means going into my shed in the late evening to make a mock-up and photograph it to help my answer. You must bear in mind the time difference between our two countries. The photo was the attachment to the email.

That is certainly quicker and easier than your original jig Jerry BUT, it still has to be accurately adjusted, so to take it a stage further, see photo! If just the holes are drilled without the countersinks you won't need a VIX bit. Harry


Harry,
Remember your thread entitled, "Two Heads Are Better Than One".

See Photos, have a chuckle, and bare with your analytical friend in Texas, hope your day went well.

Jerry


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

harrysin said:


> Jerry, I don't consider that I'm breaking any confidence by posting this further email exchange in an effort to show members that I don't ridicule anyone, when advice is asked for I go out of my way to give the best that I can, often it means going into my shed in the late evening to make a mock-up and photograph it to help my answer. You must bear in mind the time difference between our two countries. The photo was the attachment to the email.
> 
> That is certainly quicker and easier than your original jig Jerry BUT, it still has to be accurately adjusted, so to take it a stage further, see photo! If just the holes are drilled without the countersinks you won't need a VIX bit. Harry
> 
> ...



Harry,
Classic example of why we don't communicate well, you seem to forget that I'm almost blind, I cannot see a photograph well enogh to get the value of it. 

You communicate via sight, and that's a good thing for a persone with normal vision. It's that you apparently don't understand my limitations in both vision and knowledge that is causing part of your problem with me. Wish you could understand, I'd like to think that you thought more of me as a person and would except me as I am, I have feelings just like you do Harry. 

My vision has caused me to have to live outside of the normal world all of my life, I'm not complaining, just admitting the embarrassment that goes with the issue. Somethmes I have wished that I were completely bline, folks would better uncerstand that. It's very difficult for people to understand my problem, even the doctors tell me that thay have never seen a case like mine and don't know how to help me or even what to suggest, so I have had to find ways to get by, I call them "work arounds". I try to excel in all that I do and in order to do that I have t find ways to do things differently because I can't do them like other people. I do enjoy the challenge and is what I'm referring to when I tell you how much I enjoy finding ways to do things that I can't do like others do them. I issue of the drilling jig is a good example Harry, you told me from the get to that it wouldn't work, you were right, but I had to find out for myself because I couldn't do it the way you wanted me to, still can't. have found a way to cut my mortises, I can't see well enough to do them with a chisel like you tell me that you do them. I do them mostly by brale, or at least a lot by brale and am pretty proud of the fact tht I found a way to do them that works for me. You wouldn't understand that, I'm glad that you don't have to and can enjoy normal vision and blend in with the crowd and be respected for your knowledge and willingness to help and take your time to help by going to the shed and taking photos, yes, in that way I envy you as well as in other ways. I am just wanting to be excepted by a person that I admire so much, that person being you Harry.


I am just saying all of this in my attempt to get readers of this forum to better understand why I come up with some of the off the wall things that say and try to explain. I'm not asking for sympathy, just understanding that will justify my differences and be better excepted, especially by you Harry.

Jerry


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## TwoSkies57 (Feb 23, 2009)

Jerry,,,

You may find one or both of these of interest...

Veritas® Bar Gauge - Lee Valley Tools

Veritas® Bar Gauge Heads - Lee Valley Tools

b.


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

TwoSkies57 said:


> Jerry,,,
> 
> You may find one or both of these of interest...
> 
> ...


Thanks Bill, 
Looks like a perfect solution to what I have been talking about, thanks for the tip.

Jerry


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

Jerry Bowen said:


> By the way, so often your advise to me has been such that I don't understand it,


And that is the point at which you ask for an explanation of the 'advice'.


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

Jerry Bowen said:


> Harry,
> Classic example of why we don't communicate well, you seem to forget that I'm almost blind, I cannot see a photograph well enogh to get the value of it.


And you're working with power tools? I shudder at the thought.


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

JOAT said:


> And you're working with power tools? I shudder at the thought.


Theo,
You just don't understand, but do appreciate your input. I wish that I could recall now Harry and I got onto the subject that is talking about. I think that I had told him about the drilling jig that I was trying to make and he immediately told me that it would never work. He told me how he would do it but I wanted to prove him wrong and I really tried to do it. 

My idea was about 95% right, but there was one small issue that killed it that I had not counted on, the problem was that of the small bit wandering just enough to not drill the hole dead on. So when Harry told me how he did it, drill the holes that is for a jewelry boxes' hinges, I wasn't ready to give up on my attempt to make the jig work. I had to find it out for myself which I did and finally ended up doing something similar to what Harry was talking about, not the same but similar and it does work for me. 

So, maybe this will clear up what Harry said about me and my unwillingness to take his advise. As I recall, and I may be wrong, I had only told Harry what I was up to and when he told me how he did it, it was unsolicited advise from him. I had it in my mind what I was attempting to do, who would give up on an idea that seemed to be a good one, just because somebody else was achieving what I wanted to achieve by doing it another way. Harry may not remember it the way I have described it, but it is the way I remember it.

Maybe this will clear things up, I hope so anyway, I don't want any hard feelings between myself and anybody. I do take some offense when somebody calls me a liar as Harry did.

Jerry


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## Gene Howe (Jul 10, 2007)

Theo,
I'm a member of a group that supports wounded veterans who want to get into woodworking. One of our newest projects is a young man who was injured severely by an IED in Afghanistan. As a result, he is blind. With the help of the VA and woodworkers who live nearby, he has become accomplished enough that he is selling some of his work.


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

Gene Howe said:


> Theo,
> I'm a member of a group that supports wounded veterans who want to get into woodworking. One of our newest projects is a young man who was injured severely by an IED in Afghanistan. As a result, he is blind. With the help of the VA and woodworkers who live nearby, he has become accomplished enough that he is selling some of his work.


Gene,
I bet that the courageous young man that you are referring to know a thing or two about "work arounds" as I call them. I read an article some years ago of about a woodworker that made beautiful furniture, he was completely blind and had never seen any of his work. Our insurance agent is has gone blind and still does woodworking. Being completely blind and doing woodworking is beyond my imagination, I am so thankful that I am only partially blind. I still can and do drive though with a restricted license. I confess that other than staying off of the interstate I do not always stay within the restrictiions. I know when I can see and when I can't.

Anyway, I don't know if you know the man personally that you are telling us about, but if you do, perhaps you can encourage hime with what I have told you. Really our only real limitations are those that we let discourage us. 

I told Harry that so much of what I enjoy about my woodworking is that of finding ways to do things that I cannot do due to my vision limitations. He may have not understood that. When it is all said and done about Harry, he is a great guy, very considerate and obviously loved by the members of this forum that know him including myself. I admire the respect that he has earned and receives by our members. He and I have just mis-communicated, stuff happens like this, and is one of the disadvantiages of having to communicate across continents via the means of writing to each other rather than visiting face to face. 

Jerry


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Jerry, there are things that still puzzle me about you, the main one being, considering your sight problem, why in the world are you seeking accuracies of one or two thousandths of an inch that most sighted hobbyists have great difficulty achieving, it's WOOD Jerry, like a barometer hand, it moves with the weather. Again, you have an Incra jig, I don't because I have great difficulty reading the graduations, even those on my Triton saw table which are 1mm apart, I have to move my finger along to accurately count the graduations.
Finally Jerry, if your aim in life and on the forum is simply to experiment inventing new methods with no wish for members advice, that's just fine, but PLEASE, make this clear to us all.


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

Gene Howe said:


> Theo,
> I'm a member of a group that supports wounded veterans who want to get into woodworking. One of our newest projects is a young man who was injured severely by an IED in Afghanistan. As a result, he is blind. With the help of the VA and woodworkers who live nearby, he has become accomplished enough that he is selling some of his work.


You say, "With the help". But I get the impression that Jerry is doing it all on his own.


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

This thread is getting WAY of topic and has been closed for further posting.


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