# how do you START the safety issue ???



## Dimitri M (Oct 4, 2011)

In my country there is no easily available book-of-rules, and everyone is on his own about how to make the work safer for himself and the others. Between the British (who, imho, overdo it with safety) and the Greeks (who don't like precaution measures at all) what would your case be?

From my own experience - much more as an orthopaedic surgeon and much less as a woodworker - hazards and accidents start with bad mood, tiredness and loss of concentration on the work in hand. Thinking of the dozens (hundreds??) of carpenters I looked after over the years, it has always been a case of "hurry to give out the piece to get paid", "the **** who told me off - bla bla - " the wife who is never happy", other people calling while the tool is spinning etc.

I would very much appreciate any comments on this - do you work late? do you let others interrrupt you? are you lazy enough to just carry on when you see that you need to stop and lubricate etc?? do you work when upset or depressed??


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## xplorx4 (Dec 1, 2008)

Interesting topic, I shall enjoy following it, perhaps learn a bit.


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## derek willis (Jan 21, 2009)

Dimitri M said:


> In my country there is no easily available book-of-rules, and everyone is on his own about how to make the work safer for himself and the others. Between the British (who, imho, overdo it with safety) and the Greeks (who don't like precaution measures at all) what would your case be?
> 
> From my own experience - much more as an orthopaedic surgeon and much less as a woodworker - hazards and accidents start with bad mood, tiredness and loss of concentration on the work in hand. Thinking of the dozens (hundreds??) of carpenters I looked after over the years, it has always been a case of "hurry to give out the piece to get paid", "the **** who told me off - bla bla - " the wife who is never happy", other people calling while the tool is spinning etc.
> 
> I would very much appreciate any comments on this - do you work late? do you let others interrrupt you? are you lazy enough to just carry on when you see that you need to stop and lubricate etc?? do you work when upset or depressed??


Hello Dimitri,
I think we can all tell of times when an accident has occured and of those times when distraction etc. were the cause, or neglect is maybe more of an issue here, I have experienced both of these and fortunately have never had anything so serious as to be permanent. Once when using the bandsaw I heard a noise and turned my head (silly me) only to cut the tip of my finger more than half way, I just bandaged it with insulation tape and carried on, and not until the end of the day did I examine it and dress it properly. When working as a construction surpervisor, on a frosty morning I ducked under the scaffold to enter the building, (I did not have a chinstrap engaged on my safety helmet) caught the helmet on a scaffold clip and opened up my head to about three inches, not nice, both times due to neglect, and there are others.


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## Gene Howe (Jul 10, 2007)

Hurrying and stupidity have caused me to lose the use of one finger and compromised the use of another.


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## derek willis (Jan 21, 2009)

Gene Howe said:


> Hurrying and stupidity have caused me to lose the use of one finger and compromised the use of another.





Quite so !!!


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## rwl7532 (Sep 8, 2011)

When I worked sandblasting glass on site, I had a mental "zone" that I entered. There in that zone, time slowed down. It was and is similar to playing a musical piece to an audience (after dress rehearsals and all that). In that zone there is no room for errors. Since sandblasting glass is permanent the situation is even more so. Botch and it's your dime.

Strive to create that mental zone and learn how to enter it.


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## papawd (Jan 5, 2011)

What I try to do is always think through every step of the next task at hand, sometimes even doing a dry run of specific task with electrical power off,do I do this every time --no but it I try, also I think keeping tools and workplace clean makes a big difference especially tools while cleaning actually look them over for any signs of wear/damage and if needed fix or get rid of...I try and do this every time I work in shop..... Also ear plugs,safety glasses are 2 things I always have on.... I hope this helps.


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## curiousgeorge (Nov 6, 2006)

In most cases, state of mind and common sense (the most uncommon thing in the world) will dictate safety. I go by the maxim- If it doesn't look or feel safe, it probably isn't. Just to stop and think this tool can/will rip/tear parts of my body off should be enough to instill thoughts of safe usage of any tool.


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## kp91 (Sep 10, 2004)

In my work experience, the majority of incidents occur when the job is thought to be a simple or not dangerous one. It also seems to be the 'last cut of the day', when maybe attention is turning off or the worker is rushed that the incident occurs. 

In other cases, the incident occurs because either the proper safety equipment wasn't readily available, or the right tool was not at hand. Since only one cut was going to be made... there was no effort to get the right gear.

Also, failing to trust your gut that things don't feel right is usually a way to ensure a problem....

Unfortunately, I have even observed these symptoms at home from time to time, and it's a challenge to overcome them. It's only one cut, why the dust mask? or blade guard?


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## OPG3 (Jan 9, 2011)

Doctor Dimitri, Being in a hurry or working distracted is a prescription for disaster. For my situations, working with power tools is not a "spectator sport". I have to be in the right frame-of-mind and plan ahead. When the phone rings while I'm in my shop, I usually ignore it. That call can wait. We will never be able to pursue this hobby without safety issues, but many things can be shared (as you've encouraged herein) and learned from. Certainly we learn a lot from our own personal mishaps, but we should also learn from mistakes others have made. When I've run shops, I've been a "stickler" for safety issues. Things like long-sleeved shirts and jewelry can be major hazards! *OPG3*


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Many reasons for accidents. I spent 25 years as a logger in British Columbia, much of it cutting trees down with a chain saw. Back in the days when it was still all done by hand, 50-55 tree fallers a year were killed just in BC. Worker's Compensation Board of BC (now Worksafe BC) told us that it was the most dangerous job in the world according to statistics- even more dangerous than bomb disposal. They set about to change that back in the mid to late 80's. Basically it comes down to identifying the hazards, developing a plan to deal with them, and following the plan. Education of new workers and adequate supervision is mandatory in BC, here in Alberta, and I am sure in many other places. However, it is almost impossible to identify all the potential safety issues ahead of time so the most important thing to be taught is safety awareness. As someone else pointed out, if what you are doing seems like a bad idea, then it it probably is. Stop and rethink it through.


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## Dimitri M (Oct 4, 2011)

All your points taken into account, and since you all come from all corners of the earth, you helped me come to one conclusion: It's every man for himself, and this is why I gave such a title to the thread: we need to START the safety issue: start not with stories or with "I-think"s, but make a golden principle - sort of Moses' plaques which we will observe and tick before the power is switched on, all during the operations, and after the end. Also , you from well equipped countries please look into your social domains for safety rules re. the woodwork employees - amateur regulations can't be far from that.

And please come forward if you have any juicy results, let's make something from the beginning, or let's learn it if it exists. Keep in mind, moderation is virtue: don't start with exorcisms like "do not bite electric cables - they may be live" and also keep in mind that our answers lie in ways of thought and action, not is super-saver goodies worth only 4,999.99...
awainting your response,
I must add I am honored by the warmth of so many people - and for the sake or routing, don't call me Doctor - I am an amateur woodworker here.

Best wishes - and all your cuts ethereal and sweet.


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## rwl7532 (Sep 8, 2011)

Not mentioned yet is what are the rules for anyone else besides the tool operator.

I was helping my Dad last weekend. We took turns on the table saw. On his turn he didn't want me moving at all within his line of sight. Sound advice since any movement external to the table saw would be a distraction.


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

I've had most of mine when I was tired and should have stopped earlier... exhaustion and then the rushto "get done so I can stop" rather than putting off completion.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Dmitri, I must disagree that it is every man for himself. That is not the case here. When I was in the logging industry in British Columbia back in the 80s, the Workers Compensation Board of BC began looking at the accidents that were happening in various industries and what could be done to prevent them. Within a very few years we were hearing that many other jurisdictions in North America were copying what was being done there. I am now in Northern Alberta and working for a company that provides a service to oil field drilling rigs. The drilling rigs run 2 -12 hour shifts each day and before each shift starts that crew must have a safety meeting to outline the work they will be doing and review the hazards that will be faced. On some rigs, new workers are required to wear a green hard hat so that other workers will recognize them as still in training. Everyone is expected to watch out for himself and others.
The reason for all this is that it was realized about 30 years ago that not only were injuries costly to individuals and their families, but in our socialized country it was costly to the taxpayers in terms of medical costs, rehabilitation, and possible long term disability costs. It was much smarter and cheaper to prevent the accidents.
There is a great deal of information available from Worksafe BCs website (formerly the Worker's Compensation Board). Follow this link to their site WorkSafeBC.com - Home . Also of interest on their site are the hazard alerts. These are specific accidents, by industry, that have occurred. The second link will take you to it. WorkSafeBC Hazard Alerts - Thu Oct 13, 2011

There is a lot of information to be had from Worksafe BC for numerous industries. Interestingly, Worksafe statistics have shown that in many cases, employers who instituted a good safety program at their workplace had productivity increase.


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## Dimitri M (Oct 4, 2011)

Chuck, many many thanks. you covered my requests well: the site you directed me seems very knowledgeable, and the country under your name says a lot, Canada is a place where safety guides and regulations are of prime importance - yet, I must confess I was too busy today to go clicking in the labyrinth of this page you pointed me to, will give it a try during the weekend.

Best of luck to you all, as I keep re-reading your lines here, both with your expertise and with your stories, I am slowly making the obvious conclusions, and I think as
*RULE NUMBER ONE
start a job only if you have the time, energy, space, maintained tools and quiet needed to carry it out - if not, spend your time preparing whatever needs to do this next time.*how does it sound? all comments welcome!!!


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Dimitri M said:


> Between the British (who, imho, overdo it with safety) and the Greeks (who don't like precaution measures at all) what would your case be?


Some of the regulations for on-site working we have "acquired" here in the UK (e.g. a ban on ladders for most purposes other than access) are onerous, but in general the shop regs in the UK are pretty much what the rest of northern Europe (i.e. Germany, Sweden, Netherlands, etc) require. A lot of it is now driven by the insurance industry with organisations such as SUVA (Swiss) and DIN at the forefront and these days with much more international co-operation with other countries such as Canada and Australia commonplace. The proof of the pudding is in the eating as they say, and in this country (the UK) industrial woodworking accidents (expressed as accidents per '000 workers) have decreased year on year for many years now as a direct result of improved legislation. Clearly the regulatory bodies have got something right, somewhere. 

I'm not a great believer in "common sense" or "mindset" being protectors of anyone. If you don't have any form of training (even self-teaching from an appropriate manual) "common sense" will not necessarily allow you to make a rational, reasoned evaluation of the risks you are running doing something outside of your normal area of competence/experience. Some people think that getting away with a (technically) dangerous procedure (such as using table saws without riving knives or adequate guarding) once or more often means that theior technique is "safe" for the future. Such individuals seem to consider safety legislation as just so much bunkum. When their accident eventually happens it is the same (untrained/ignorant) individuals who blame their machinery.

Regards

Phil


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## Dimitri M (Oct 4, 2011)

Hi Phil, thank you for your comments, I would like to add a few comments about safety in thhe UK, if I may: As you very well mentioned, insurance companies dictate the lot, and often their dogmas are ridiculous - as ridiculous as the claims many people make for their accidents. On the other hand, I wonder if there is anything written for consumers - us, amateurs, e.g. there are many information leaflets for those about to have a joint replacement, extremely helpful, why not about those who already have 4 - 5 power tools in the garage or the shed??? 
I only know two rules of safety for amateurs: One, as I stated above. This comes from my observations as a trauma surgeon over the years: it is the mental state of the individual and not the surrounding that causes the accident. Apparently many others have noticed this, even in RTAs, and for this reason they are now starting to call them "incidents" instead of "accidents". Two, I learned from my son who is an engineer: with power tools try to work well under their load limit - overloading them invites all sorts of trouble.

Please try to find if there are any already published leaflets in the UK.

with thanks


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## Ashore (Feb 26, 2008)

Here in Australia we have OH&S Occupational Health and Safety, there are some industries that have closed shop and moved overseas because by following the rules here makes some work totally unprofitable. 
It is hard to find that fine line that protects the foolish from injuring themselves and becoming a nanny state.
A case in point was the introduction of rules about electrical items on job sites, including leads and even radios. All had to be tested and tagged by a quallified person every month, with the paper work including the testers No available, cause the tags could only be purchased from the government. They have now relented to a 3 month check and the course to become a tester takes about 3 weeks.
Imagine as a carpenter with 20 electrical tools and equipment in your trailer, some you might only use once a year, but all have to be tested and tagged every 3 months.
Is that safety , or is it over the top .....or heaven forbid a money making excersize by the Government.


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## Dimitri M (Oct 4, 2011)

Ashore, thank you for your valuable point! Being neurotic with inspection is easy. Now let me make a counterpoint here: How many of us, amateurs, have allocated time for inspection of electric cables, lubrication, maintenance of our tools, and in order to keep track of time passing, how many have actually taken a note on a paper of when this was done ??? I admit for myself, full of promises that for many years I used to say "one day I will certainly do it" (like the alcoholics admit they will quit ONE DAY), and only two years ago I started such a book, which is extremely boring to keep updated. Now how often what should be done, it is up to everyone to define for himself - for me realistic means as close to punctual as possible - and I never am punctual.
So I would conclude as 
*RULE NUMBER TWO : ALLOCATE TIME FOR MAINTENANCE AND RECORD EVERYTHING DATED PROPERLY*

Anyone with more comments, please come forward


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## Ashore (Feb 26, 2008)

Unfortunately I would say 99% of us do running mainternance, ie...fix it when you see a problem , how many here oil or coat say their band saw table after each use compared to those of us that only do it after we see some surface rust 
We all intend to but what do they say about the road to hell is paved with


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## wbh1963 (Oct 11, 2011)

Thanks for your comment Russel! Not only does it describe me all to well, it brought this thread to my attention. After reading through it, I find myself curious about what percentage of 'power tool mishaps' happen 'working on the job' as opposed to how many happen in 'hobby pursuits'. The big point there being on the job the company/state makes the rules and at home people do whatever they want to do in accordance with there own perception of what is or isn't 'too risky'.

I noticed a lot of comments where people stressed how important it is to pay attention to 'instinctive' fear of a situation. When it comes to using machines designed to tear through steel, wood, concrete or whatever, it can take years to develop a comprehensive understanding of what noises, smells, tactile sensations or visual cues should trigger a 'something's wrong here instinct."

Education and training can inform a person as to what sorts of things are good habits that should always be done. It can also tell them what should never be done because of the increased risk involved. I have had several close calls through the years that could have been fatal without the benefit of foundational safe practices making up the difference. In my case the most vital safety education I received began in high school metal shop. My first working experience was in the US Navy, where the safety rules were of the finest quality. I'm not suggesting that safety rules are always followed in any work environment, so much as giving my opinion that the fleet's rulebook is exceptionally well done.

When my military experience was done, I found my first experience with the market's need to get the job done as cheaply, therefor as quickly as possible. Working in telecommunications, the inherent job hazards were almost zero as compared to life on an aircraft carrier, so I just flowed with it.

I wonder if there are any shopsafety.org type sites out there that allready have a good general curriculum done up going over the base always do this and never do that stuff?


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## Ashore (Feb 26, 2008)

It is indeed interesting to watch others at work ( play ) in their sheds.
So things I think are dangerious others are often oftenhand about and ignore my concerns and I must admit to fitting into the same boat
I suppose a lot of it comes down to your personal experience and knowledge and what you feel safe with.
As a young bloke helping dad ( who was a carpenter by trade ) I learnt a gerat deal about safety. He would take great pains in explaining things and making sure my brother and I didn't have accidents with any tools we used, so I am reasonably safe with hand tools.
I to went to sea as an engineer ( merchant navy ) for 30 odd years , and there safety was a priority, right up till you were broken down and in a problem situation then you cut whatever corners you had to , to get the lights on and get underway. 

I do believe though that most accidents that hapen in your own shed are on that last cut , or if you are rushing to finish a job. As we all know with todays power tools one slip and you can do a heap of damage quickly.


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## paduke (Mar 28, 2010)

Ignorance is also an issue Especially for novice woodworkers. A 3 hp router can do some quick damage. Even in the skilled trades people grab equipment they are not cleared to operate and ignorantly cause safety issues.


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## crash!!! (Jan 18, 2010)

*Work safety applies at home and vice versa!*

I have worked in utility construction in the United States. I find it is generally a safe business and accidents tend to happen due to more than one factor. I worked in the Alaska oil fields for a season and they encouraged us to take our safety glasses, gloves, hearing protection and more home. I was told if we use it more at home then at work we would be more safety minded. I find this true. I used to go out to the shop and wear only safety glasses. Now its safety glasses, apron, hearing protection, and gloves on some occassions. No matter what we should set up our own safety rules in our home shops and adhere to them strictly. 

CRASH!!!


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Let's not forget practical jokes and general asshattery on job sites. Smoking on the job is another one.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

On 'Ashore's' Oz observation:
Seems like a huge waste of effort. If a power cord is sliced this afternoon, and it pours rain overnight, dragging it through the puddles (hot) tomorrow morning isn't going to be served by an inspection a couple of months from now. 
A quick visual check by the guy using it however, seems eminently more practical; he's the guy standing in the puddle...


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## Dimitri M (Oct 4, 2011)

Many thanks for all contributions - I must say, being an amateur woodworker, that I never thought workers make practical jokes that endanger others - I find it awful.

A very smart point raised above, is the lack of training. We all have buttons on tools we use for years and we have long ago forgotten what they are for, not to mention that we know much less about the entrails of our tools than we should.

Once my son (who is an engineer) said, "if it doesn't work, RTFM" (what do you mean? I asked ... "Read The [email protected]#&*^~ Manual" he replied. I ask now, how many of us still have the manuals? and are the manuals of any use or do they start about potential dangers from bad weather etc, e.g. DO NOT EAT DRILL BITS THEY ARE POTENTIALLY DANGEROUS)

So, how is the idea that in big hardware stores, some people could give education in "hands-on" lectures on specific power tools? Any comments on that??


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## MEBCWD (Jan 14, 2012)

*The most important power tool in the shop is your BRAIN!* 
Turn it on when you enter the shop and make sure it is working properly before you turn on any other power tool. If it is not working right then may be it is time to do all the cleaning and maintenance that has been neglected on those days you just could not stop long enough to do them. The next time you go to the shop it will be ready when your *BRAIN* is turned on and is working correctly.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi

For me it's that little voice we all have in the back of your head,,if you ask it " is that safe, if you get a no re thing how you are doing the job until you get a yes from the little voice in your head. 

==



MEBCWD said:


> *The most important power tool in the shop is your BRAIN!*
> Turn it on when you enter the shop and make sure it is working properly before you turn on any other power tool. If it is not working right then may be it is time to do all the cleaning and maintenance that has been neglected on those days you just could not stop long enough to do them. The next time you go to the shop it will be ready when your *BRAIN* is turned on and is working correctly.


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## TWheels (May 26, 2006)

MEBCWD said:


> *The most important power tool in the shop is your BRAIN!*


Exactly, to the word, what I was intending to post! 
As has been stated several times over, fatigue, rushing-to-get-it-done, distractions, and to this list i would add colds, flu, etc all interfere with clear thinking. The router is a dangerous tool; one need only see some of the pictures posted in this subforum to see what can happen to even experienced users.

I am a woodworking hobbyist, so I have the luxury of being able to stop working when I get tired or of not starting if I know I am not thinking straight. Shortly into my professional career there was a revolution in the technologies used to study my subject, and allowed many spinoff industries. Safety was immediately a concern, and I became very conscious of safety issues in a much broader sense.

In spite of my own orientation toward safety one day, in a split second of not thinking I tried a climb cut that shot the workpiece away and my left forefinger made contact with the spinning router bit. Now the distal joint is a bit stiff, not from the injury itself but from being confined in bandages, and my fingerprint is altered.

One day I had driven my two sons to school then the 30 miles (50 km) into my place of work. I worked in my windowless office until mid afternoon and headed home. Only then did I recognize that the weather had not obeyed the forecast. I remember thinking the roads looked to be in good shape. I also had no reason to rush home. Then I had a brace around my torso with a chin restraint that kept me from looking down, my right arm was in a sling and held by velcro® to the torso brace,there were tubes in every orifice, the bed had side rails, there was a television high on the wall. I saw that my left forearm was all shades of red, purple, etc with cotton wads held in place with skin tape. It seemed very much like I was in a hospital. I asked a person, a young woman, wearing a white uniform, where I was and what day it was. It was 10 days later than I thought it was! I learned what had happened, and as I learned more about it, came to wonder how I had survived the traffic accident on the road that suddenly turned icy.
My point: accidents do happen no matter what; they cannot be eliminated entirely, but we should do everything possible to reduce their frequency.

Dimitri, Thanks very much for starting this thread and the valuable conversation it has stimulated.


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## newmexico (Jan 17, 2012)

I've always said that the wood shop is a "Thinking Man's Game." It's a "Red Zone" and no place for a person who can not focus. 

You don't want to drink-and-drive around equipment. If you've had a fight with the wife, then you might not want to work in the wood shop that day. Every machine has potential, even the belt sander, and we have a healthy respect for spinning equipment. I am personally scared of each machine and remind myself of that every day.

It's a mindset that you either have naturally or learn from experience. 

IMHO


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## Ironman50 (Jun 5, 2012)

I’m curious which country are you from?
I just read a post in this forum site where he had an accident with his finger because he started too early in the day before he was bright-eyed.
Full attention is always required when handling with a tool or a machine.


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

paduke said:


> Even in the skilled trades people grab equipment they are not cleared to operate and ignorantly cause safety issues.


You can say that again, Ryan! A couple of weeks ago two of us "old [email protected]" had to pull up a young carpenter three times to tell him he was using a router wrong. First time he was using the router back to front, so he couldn't reach the on-off switch. Second time he was pulling the router towards himself rather than pushing it away. Time after that he was cutting down the wrong side of the material (climb milling). The guy was trained and certificated, it's just that he'd seen other guys doing things wrong and aped them. He'd got away with his dangerous behaviour only because it was MDF and softwood. An accident waiting to happen IMHO



wbh1963 said:


> When it comes to using machines designed to tear through steel, wood, concrete or whatever, it can take years to develop a comprehensive understanding of what noises, smells, tactile sensations or visual cues should trigger a 'something's wrong here instinct."


I quite agree, Bill. I keep seeing people write that the most important item in shop safety is the brain, or commonsense, but neither works without training or experience IMHO. Personally I'd rather have a bit of primary safety in a tool's design and set-up _before I start using it_; that means crown guard in place on rip saw, also riving knife, also short rip fence, using routers or radial arm saws for housings (dados) rather than the table saw, and yes, thinking through the cut before making it - because when you have an accident it happens so quickly that your brain and body simply can't react fast enough (and I have the stitches to prove that one). 

Dimitri may not like me saying this, but taking a look at what the bodies who regulate industrial safety in many countries are legislating isn't necessarily a bad thing - some very good safety devices have come out of these bodies, e.g. the Suva guard for saws (overhead crown guard), the riving knife, chip-limiting router cutters, dust extraction, etc. As a professional I have to play by the rules because if I don't and I'm caught I can be fined or find myself without insurance cover - but what works to protect people in the trades also works for the hobbyist

Regards

Phil


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## darsev (Feb 3, 2012)

Permit me to have a bit of a contrarian view here. To state the obvious, safety is a primary concern, but I am not to sure that rules are always the right way to go, and in some situations they can actually be counter-productive in making a workshop safe. Having said that, rules can be useful - particularly during the experience building phase of operating equipment.

I am from Aus and it is now one of the most over regulated places in the world, and this actually works against creating a safe environment. There are too many rules to remember, so you end up breaking one of them somewhere or other on a regular basis. The food safety regulations for voluntary organisations alone is a pile of paper about 70-80mm thick (roughly 3"), and that is the abbreviated version compared to professional establishments. End result: cake stalls etc. are disappearing as they are just too hard to comply with the rules. There are frequently "discussions" at the factory about the details of various safety rules, and without clear results because no-one really knows. E.g. how far away should an observer be from a panel saw? 

They can also create "impossible" situations. Again getting back to the panel saws, at one stage in the factory setup my machine was near two panel saws, and no matter which way I went, I could not move stock around without getting in the kickback zone of one of the saws. One of the managers found a loophole in the regs which allowed us to move stock, but in practice the safety issue was resolved simply by waiting until the saw was not being used before moving through the kickback zone.

It is also my opinion that the rules and regulations have over-protected the younger generation, and they rely too much on the rules for protection and don't take personal responsibility for their own safety. I know of one worker who claimed vehemently that it was illegal to stir up dust in the factory, yet operates a panel saw while wearing gloves for hours at a time. Yet another apprentice who thought he was 10 foot tall and bullet proof and intentionally put himself in the throat of a U shaped conveyor when a large counter was coming in such a way that it could have decapitated him, but yelled back at me when I told him to get out because it was unsafe!

Rules are useful, particularly when we are inexperienced and yet to develop that gut feel to know when something doesn't feel safe. However if we rely on them instead of understanding the principles involved, we will end up with a rule book so big that no-one can remember them all as people try to cover every eventuality. I am also convinced now that many of the safety regulations are in place not so much for the benefit of the workers but for the benefit of the lawyers so that they will have someone to blame. A relative of mine asked an OH&S investigator one day, and they said they will just keep looking and going up the chain until they find someone to blame. That's why they need the rules. 

I am not sure if we can actually get one answer to the best way to manage safety. Personally, I try to use Einstein's principle: make a solution as sophisticated as it needs to be to solve the problem, but no more than that. The simple solutions nearly always work the best. For my machine at the factory, I keep away from the bits that move and the bits that are hot. Works for me. In general, to manage risks I like to keep things predictable, and be alert for things that might change that predictability.

Dmitri, I wish you well in your endeavour to identify how to be safe in the workshop. I trust that my contrarian comments will help you refine your list, and that you come up with something better than the myriad of rules and regulations that we need to wade through here.

Darryl


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Hi Darryl

Your view isn't necessarily contrarian. From what you've written I'd say that you are probably a trained wood machinist. In that training they'd have told you about the whys and wherefores of using a short rip fence, riving kinife, crown guard, push sticks, run-offs, etc and of avoiding the kickback zone, etc. After you've been told a few hundred times (maybe less in your case ) it sort of sinks in and "safe working practice" becomes (or should become) second nature, however that approach to safety at work comes out of many thousands of accidents which have occurred all over the world and the investigations into those accidents are what has led to the legislitation which is supposed to protect us........ I have to admit, though, that some of the things we get told to do are just ridiculous (key one in my case at present being high level access and working at heights) - where it is obvious that the guys writing the rules have never done the job and don't really understand what we are tryng to achieve. In other words I do sometimes think that not enough credence is given to the real life experience of the properly trained and experienced person. But personal experience and "common sense" alone aren't enough, either

Regards

Phil


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## 57759 (Apr 8, 2011)

As an Industrial Education student many years ago I was taught that a majority of accidents, according to a study at the University of Missouri I believe, fall within six categories developed in the study.

I wish I had better records of the study but I believe they are listed in the order of frequency. Please don't hold me to that one but if one looks at the categories it seems reasonable to me. If a person gives these categories some thought while diagnosing accidents one or more can be attributed to the cause nearly every time.

1) a lack of safety knowledge

2) a lack of safety skill

3) emotional instability

4) improper safety attitude

5) physical being

6) mechanical failure


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## darsev (Feb 3, 2012)

Phil,

Thanks for your vote - I sometimes wonder if sanity exists any more in that narrow gap between the incompetent and the regulators. I need to set the record straight and say that officially I am not a trained wood machinist - just a labourer working as a machine operator (as a result of jobs in my profession being decimated by the GFC...) I have been brought up in a family of tradesmen though with a lot of on the job learning as we have worked together on various projects. I certainly understand your frustration with the working at heights rules - we have some clangers here too. One of the most notable is that extension ladders need to be secured at the top and the bottom before you use them. Pray tell, how do you secure the top of a ladder without climbing up to the top where you can secure it? Other people I know have discarded (unofficially) the safety harnesses they are supposed to use - the harnesses are just so big that they restrict movement and become a hazard in themselves. 

Probably the most notorious of the safety recommendations in Aus was for the surf lifesavers. After some major tragedies in lifesaving competitions where changes to safety precautions were obviously required, a coroner recommended that lifesavers wear bouyancy vests while swimming competitively through the surf. Anyone that's used one of those vests would know it is impossible to swim through the surf with much control in one of those things. On a different note, we had a government WHSO come through the workshop recently (I don't want to give too much detail for obvious reasons) and the WHSO issued breaches for some relatively trivial things that were basically an untidy workshop, while missing completely some more important safety issues that we are currently in the process of sorting out before the WHSO even turned up. It's things like that which don't give me much confidence in the regulators, and then like the boy who cried wolf, people become apathetic towards real safety issues.

Darryl


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

I've suffered from only getting 1-2 hours of sleep for over 25 years. For the most part, my body and mind has adjusted and thinks that is normal. When I worked as a carpenter, I tried to stay aware and tune out what else was going on around me (to a point). 

Do I work when tired, depressed or... ? Yes. All moods, tired or not. Everyday. That's just life right? You don't work, you don't get paid.

Things still happen- such as (in cramped space) holding a stringer on the other side of a joist, shooting a nail gun, being right on, but the nail follows some twist in grain or a knot and it taking an unexpected right turn through my finger. I hold things a little further out now.

Thankfully I still have all my fingers and am alive. I am grateful.

Two things come to my mind:

- The most important part of safety starts between our ears.

- Sometimes stupidity is unrecoverable.


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## Dimitri M (Oct 4, 2011)

Many thanks to all for their contributions, and please note that I dislike NONE of your comments here (Phil,) - all opinions and even stories are useful.

As an amateur, I find very hard to define the margin chalk line that separates an amateur from a professional in terms of the ability to buy (and use) power tools. At the age of 61 I plead ignorant of any professional associatinos here in my country to which I can turn for systemic concise and proved useful advice. So, I started this thread with a question that I answered myself after reading a few of your contributions here: How do you start the safety issue? ANSWER, You allocate time to it. Time to read the manuals, time to inspect the cables, time to clean and lubricate the tools, time to rest before it gets too tiresome to finish the job in hand.

Following that, all the other things mentioned here by all of you help with all other aspects, all respectable and in need of their place in everyone's mind. The final scope is to achieve zero accidents - as an orgthopaedic surgeon I assure you there are plenty of acidents of the carpentry area of interests - and let me add a most "colorful" accident that I had to look after in my early days:
A 50ish year old fellow shows up in A&E with a towel around his wrist and some blood dripping from it, and says what happened to him: "I wanted to cut off a lemon tree in my backyard and I only had a disc saw available ( ! ? never heard of tree cutting with a disc saw - lemon tree trunks are about 4" - 6" diameter), so I grabbed the tree trunk with one hand and tried to cut it by holding the saw so the disc cuts horizontal, but as I squeezed the trigger, the saw was so aggressive it jumped over the tree trunk and cut the back of my wrist". I found all tendons of the extensor area (the back of the wrist|) severed, and took a long time to stitch them up one by one. It is common knowledge that tendon repairs in the this area are successful, and on his final visit to the outpatient dept, the patient was very happy with the result and brought me a present. He was an artist specialising in chlidren's book illustrations, and had just finished a series of five volumes on the Greek mythology, and brought me the books and they were magnificent. The morale of the story is "*don't attempt to experiment with power tools*". He lacked common sense, and this could prove disastrous.

I am recovering from a big operation I had in March - I have restarted some carpentry recently but not the full menu yet - hope to be back in full power soon.

Dimitri


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

Hi Dimitri

I hope that your recovery is going well.

You mention manufacturers manuals, but if you talk to manufacturers reps on the subject it seems that the people who make the tools only want to give the bare minimum of safety information, possibly because ey feel it's, (a) not their job; (b) it may leave them open to litigation or (c) it costs too much money in any case. 

Take a table saw, for example; one well known model I am familiar with has about a whole page of bold type does and don'ts (mainly don'ts) which mainly seem to be there to protect said manufacturer's derrière. Other than saying all cuts should be made with the crown guard/riving knife in place and that using the (provided) push stick there's little practical help. Nothing about kickbacks, the need to have (build) run-off support, the reason for the adjustable rip fence and when to draw it back, etc, etc and certainly nothing about the root causes of dangerous practices. Not their problem, they think. On the other hand our HSE website has a leaflet which is 5 pages long has more useful safety gen than an entire book from that manufacturer. Some people find leaflets such as that prescriptive, but they are at least based on recommendations which have come out of analysis of accident reports from surgeons and doctors _such as yourself_. I feel it's a pity that manufacturers can't or won't go a step further in putting more concise stuff in their manuals, especially as in some cases (e.g. routers) the safety advice available is to say the least rudimentary - which is presumably why we continue to report accidents here and elsewhere as a result of climb milling, trapped milling and other dangerous practices.

Regards

Phil

Edit: Having just read that, Mike, do we have a set of safety rules/advice posted here? Sorry to ask, but I don't go looking for that sort of stuff because of my background


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## darsev (Feb 3, 2012)

Phil P said:


> Having just read that, Mike, do we have a set of safety rules/advice posted here? Sorry to ask, but I don't go looking for that sort of stuff because of my background


I would second that Phil. If a set of safety / operational rules were put together by competent users I would find that very useful for myself. As you know from previous discussions, I don't have much time for those generic/academic safety rules that are prompted more by legal concerns than any genuine concern for the safety of those who use the equipment. The other reason for developing safety / operational rules in a forum like this is to keep up with current equipment and new practices required for them by the people who are actually using the equipment. For example, on the panel saws with digital rip fences at work, we frequently don't slide the fence back when doing a cross cut type cut. We set the fence at the required measurement. Hold the piece against the cross cut fence and slide out to the rip fence to get the right measurement. Then using the digital panel, move the rip fence back further and push the piece through the saw holding it tight on the cross cut fence without the piece contacting any of the rip fence at all. This is actually safer than using a short rip fence.

Darryl


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## MAFoElffen (Jun 8, 2012)

You mean something along the lines of- "Moving parts traveling at a high rate of speed, whether sharp or not, are inherently dangerous. Keep all body parts and articles of clothing away."

Rather than the- "Do not use hair dryer in standing water" type warnings that draw away from the real potential danger of the tool.


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## Dimitri M (Oct 4, 2011)

Phil, you touched a sensitive scar there; I bought 2 ys ago a chinese-made table saw, inside its carton box, and the assembly "manual" was totally illegible (and supposedly English) and the result, not to mention safety rules, is that I cannot use it at all (this is the ultimate security achievement - TO BE TOTALLY SECURE LEAVE THE TOOL IN ITS BOX AND GO PLAY OUTSIDE !!). Perhaps it is worth compiling a funny book with obviously silly safety remarks, like the hairdryer that Mike mentioned.

On the serious side now, IMHO it is a lot of work to compile safety advice: experienced users need to identify the specific dangers and remedies, then some other (literature people?) need to put the comments in VERY SIMPLE words, which is a difficult task, and then some others need to assess the efficiency of the statements. All in all, any idea to start some chart - generic and then model-specific charts? Will it be in chapters or in alphabetic order? You got me thinking.

Many thanks and wishes to all.

D


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## Timco (Jul 4, 2012)

Hi Dimitri.
Safety is not just a state of mind but an integral part of evryones working day!. In the Uk and Ireland you and others may suggest that we have a very strict code of practice but let me say that we need to work only to the minimum requirements. Not to say we should ignore any of the code but you have to take a practical view of all situations.
The guidelines are set down not for the sake of it but to protect you and your workmates.
Basically all you have to do is plan your moves and be aware of your working space. Be aware of what affect your task will have on you and your workmates.
Some very basic rules I know but having worked on heavy construction plant and machinery for the past forty years they have served me well. I and my workmates still have all our limbs and digits.

Hear endeth the sermon!.


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## darsev (Feb 3, 2012)

Hi Tim,
here in Aus we are caught between the British penchant for rules and systems, and the American need for litigation - not a good combination! Guidelines are just a name for unofficial rules that are still enforceable. If something go wrong, then all those involved had better have done everything that been put down on paper. If not, you are liable for something.

On the other hand, I think it would be a really good idea to have a set of guidelines accessible in this forum that helped people operate equipment and woodwork safely. I'm prepared to offer my editorial expertise in this. I have written several technical manuals in the past, and can co-ordinate the efforts of a team so that things happen. Do we have any other offers? I am keen to see a straight forward set of procedures that focus on being safe rather than avoiding litigation and am happy to assist.

Darryl


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

darsev said:


> Do we have any other offers? I am keen to see a straight forward set of procedures that focus on being safe rather than avoiding litigation and am happy to assist.


Hi Darryl

I'm up for it. I'm a working joiner with quite a few years shop experience behind me

Regards

Phil


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## AxlMyk (Jun 13, 2006)

MAFoElffen said:


> You mean something along the lines of- "Moving parts traveling at a high rate of speed, whether sharp or not, are inherently dangerous. *Keep all body parts and articles of clothing moving slowly*."


Fixed it for you.

.


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## Jerry Bowen (Jun 25, 2011)

Yes Doctor, I would like to respond and agree with you. I have not been a woodworker very long, just a little over three years. When I started doing this stuff, I knew that I could get hurt real bad if I were not very careful, in spite of that I have had several close calls, and in every case it was a matter of not paying careful attention. I decited to try to create a habit of talking to myself everytime I start to make a cut that could be a problem. I tell myself, "this could be the time" I check everything and try to concentrate on what I am doing, I mean completely concentrate. One of the best things that I did in regard to the issue of safety was to purchase feather boards and to use them every time that I need to make even one rip cut. I do know that I might be the victim of an accident at anytime, but what I have eluded to above will hopefully minimize the risk. That's all I have to say about that.

Jerry
Colorado City, TX


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## Fishinbo (Jun 11, 2012)

Very well said. I find this a good habit - to talk to ourselves for safety reasons. There should always be a constant reminder to remain focused before doing the work. This habit should cover it.


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