# Building furniture on a CNC from paper plans?



## LDBecker (Jun 16, 2015)

Not a CNC owner yet, but moving in that direction. However, I really don't want a CNC to make signs, plaques or "flat" furniture - i kind of want to make the real furniture... I like mission/Green and Green-style furniture, and I have done some of it with conventional tools. The results have been "OK," but not great - and I don't always have a huge amount of time (that darned regular job!).

I have a nice assortment of power tools (3hp 220v table saw, 16" 220v band saw, routers, sanders, Leigh dove-tail jig, 12" 220v jointer-planer, central dust collection, drill press, Festool track saw, Domino... and a bunch of other assorted stuff - and have been using them for decades (started with a Shopsmith 25 years ago or so). 

I've done SOME pattern routing, and i wonder, why not just do it on a CNC? Can't a guy scan in drawings from paper plans, lay out the joints (like mortise and tenon or even dovetail or box joints) - or even just set the parts up for using the Festool Domino (love that tool!)? 
I've looked online a LOT and I really don't see much in the way of something like, "Pay $25, here's the plan to build a chair, just add wood and a CNC machine. These are the bits you need, have fun!" I think THAT would really sell some machines. 

So - my question again - is it dumb to just scan in the plans, make vectors in the software, model it on screen, and cut? Is it really hard to, say, lay out tapered table legs or chair parts and have them cut and prepped on the CNC?

BTW, the machines I'm looking at are from Legacy - I think their tool profile method is pretty amazing (don't want to start a war on this - I know many have favorites, or want to make their own - just an opinion). 
Thanks! 
Larry
Edit - Yikes, this was my first post! Sorry for such a basic question


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## 4DThinker (Feb 16, 2014)

I teach furniture design at the university level, and we use 3 small CNC primarily for cutting complex furniture parts or joinery details on those parts. With a whole "conventional" shop also available the CNCs are not used for any job that is simply easier/quicker to produce using some other method. 

You'll want a CNC that permits clamping parts beneath the cutter at vertical and/or complex angles. You'll want a frame design that can support pieces thicker/deeper than the Z travel so they can have the CNC cut mortises or other details on existing parts. 

We don't use our rotary 4th axis much, but when we do use it it is because there was simply no better way to cut the desired part or detail on a part. 

I don't scan plans. It is to me more efficient to simply re-draw the parts shown in the paper plans, or just the part or fraction of a part I need to make a toolpath for. A drawing to have toolpaths generated from it doesn't need all the detail a paper plan has. 

With the right CNC, and clamping fixtures you can make to attach to it, very innovative/improved/precise joinery can be cut. Once you have the toolpaths to make one of anything, you can efficiently make as many duplicates as you desire (or can sell). 

4D


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

4D,

You got to hold a class or make a video on how to "draw" plans with Aspire.

HJ


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## LDBecker (Jun 16, 2015)

4DThinker,

Thanks for your helpful reply! Very much appreciated. 

I DO, as I said, have a good selection of conventional tools, so I'm after a hybrid approach - but interested in using a CNC for a LOT more than making the flat, odd-looking, easily assembled furniture that seems to be associated with CNC work, and I DON'T have much interest in making plaques or signs. The accuracy and design capabilities that SHOULD be inherent in a CNC are interesting to me. All the funky jigs (I am ABYSMAL with the Leigh Dovetail jig, even updated to the current iteration), and making accurate router templates is a pain in the posterior. I am QUITE computer savvy (build my own and do quite a lot with them), so the concept of doing the design work on a pc sounds great. 

Your point about being to clamp beneath the cutter at vertical or complex angles affirms what i was thinking - esp for end-joining - and I am amazed at how little Z-axis travel there is on some machines. 

The new Legacy Maverick seems to hit all these points well - but at a breathtaking pricepoint ($17k and up from there!)... do you, or others, have any recommendations on a machine that would do this? The Legacy machines seem of interest because they don't just whack away at the wood with a 1/4 or 1/8 bit - they use profile bits to shape the wood and the profiles are accounted for in the software. That sounds like the way to go...

Thanks again!

Larry


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## 4DThinker (Feb 16, 2014)

HJ,

I don't use Aspire to draw up complete plans. I do use it to work up the cuts I need to do on any part of a furniture project though. 

Aspire wants you to start with a rectangular job area and origin point. I typically set the material size to the rough dimensions of the part to be cut. If I'm cutting a part or parts from a larger piece of wood I set the job size to match the bigger board size. I'll set the origin point to somewhere on the board/part that I can most easily zero out (touch off) the bit to. I'll often use an offset of 1/2 the bit diameter so I can touch it to a side and top or bottom edge for zeroing. 

For complex cuts on an angled end of a part I usually draw side(s) and top view to determine real dimension of the area my cut will be contained within. High School drafting lessons come in handy here. The job size may then be reset to just the area of the diagonal slice through a part where my cut is going to be. 

Students often send me full plans of their project in an autocad or rhino file. After importing their file into Aspire, I isolate just the part a toolpath needs to be created for and delete the rest. I'll then set the job size to match the part I'll be cutting on. 

If you are making the whole piece, then the paper plans will serve nicely as your assembly instructions. Aspire only needs the few vectors to generate the toolpaths needed, one piece at a time. 

4D


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## 4DThinker (Feb 16, 2014)

LDBecker,

I have a Probotix Meteor that I bought specifically for the open t-slotted frame design and dual Y motors. We have a Meteor and a Nebula from the same company (probotix.com) in the fine furniture shop I teach in. I've made jigs that bolt into the front rail and hold parts at (almost) any angle to the router. We also have a center crossbar installed on them that permits easy vertical clamping. When I've needed to cut mortise arrays on the bottom of a mostly assembled piece of furniture I've made bridging supports to hang the carcass inside the frame. It is the potential of these CNCs from Probotix that permits my creative problem solving related to student furniture designs. You can buy their most expensive CNC for less then $6000. 

97% of the complex joints I create are cut with a simple end mill. Those complex profile bits are expensive, and while Aspire can be programmed to toolpath and preview for them they rarely get any use on our CNCs. Inlay can be done with simple V-Bits. Edge profiling is usually easier to do with a bit mounted in a hand held or table mounted router. 

4D


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## 4DThinker (Feb 16, 2014)

I just watched the Maverick CNC Video and want to say a few things about it.

The software that they use is Aspire, despite them calling it something different. You can use the same bits in the same way on any rotary axis (probotix sells one as an accessory) if you have Aspire. This doesn't come with the CNCs from Probotix, but you can buy it directly from vectric.com. I can reproduce any of those complex legs in exactly the same way with exactly the same bits on my 4th axis using Aspire. 

Their compound angle clamping jig looks impressive, but hinges the wrong way. You won't be able to slide long boards up to cut slots or angled mortises on their face as the gantry/spindle mount will interfere. You'll also not want to cut through joints into the aluminum face of that jig. 

8" of Z travel isn't as useful as clearance/access to large parts under the bit will be. No bit you use will ever be longer than maybe 3". Most will be under 1.5". It looks like the bed can be removed entirely on the Maverick, but you'll need a way to mount thick/assembled parts at specific heights under it. 

4D


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## LDBecker (Jun 16, 2015)

I really appreciate your input, 4DThinker! 

Your comments on the Legacy Maverick are really helpful - thanks so much for taking the time to watch it. It is interesting that they are using Aspire. The impression I got was that it was a Mach 3 proprietary software package, called "Artisan ATC CNC Ornamental Mill," seen at 5:13 into the "Setting Up your Maverick CNC Youtube video -(can't yet post a URL - Sorry) or is that just their machine's set-up and control software? 

On the compound angle clamping jig, re: it hinging the wrong way, couldn't you just turn the part you're machining around? I'm having difficulty understanding. 

Watching their video on making the 3 legged pedestal, the way they machine the pedestal is impressive to me. Using the dovetail bit like that is cool (2:55 in their Introducing the Maverick YT Video. Having the "5 axis turning center" (which, I think, means they can do tapers on their machines) also looks impressive. 

I would think that having an 8" Z travel would mean that you can place thick parts on the bed for machining. I'm not sure I can imagine how one would mount something below the bed at a specific height.

I looked at the Probotix web site and YT Channel. I'm not sure I understand the need for a linux system - does that mean that to run Aspire or other software, you need to have 2 computers?

Their machines look somewhat similar to what my local Rockler WW store is trying to sell me (Shark HD) or even Shopbots - but maybe a bit cheaper. 

Thanks for indulging my VERY beginner questions!

Larry


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

Larry,

Listen to Perfesser 4D. He's one of our top go to guys, especially on Probotix machines.

I have a Probotix Nebula -- got $8k in the machine and Aspire. It comes with it's own computer all configured in Linux. All you do is create your project on any computer of your choice - convert it into g-code (Aspire does this for you- one mouse click), load it on a thumb drive, and plug that into a USB port on the machine's computer. This way you can store your project files on the computer with Aspire and on the thumb drive. I keep a written record as well on what's on each thumb drive. Buy several, it helps to organize your projects. Like 4D said, once you have a file you will always have it at your disposal.

I looked at Legacy and Shopbot, too, but so far have no regrets going with Probotix. You can actually call and talk to the guy that
built your machine, and Len (the owner) is great to work with. They're in Peoria, Illinois.

HJ


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## 4DThinker (Feb 16, 2014)

I'm not familiar with what Shopbot sells. I do also own a CNC Shark Pro bought from Rockler. We have a Shark HD 2.0 next to the two Probotix machines. With the Sharks there is no way to clamp parts vertically, no limits switches, and the only one Y motor which eliminates any chance of opening up the t-track bed. The bottom of their machines and end panels are high density plastic. Their router mount is also plastic and breaks down after continued use. Not a horrible CNC, but limited in what it can do. 

As HJ stated, the CNCs from Probotix come with a PC running Linux and LinuxCNC to control the CNC. Already configured, and just needing to be plugged together. You will need a windows-based PC to run Aspire no matter which CNC you buy. 

I made a tilting clamping jig which I can mount to any rail on the Probotix CNC frame, and after using it on my center rail facing the same way as the Maverick has it mounted, I ran into interference from the way the router approached it. Trying to cut an angled slot half way down the face of a board, I couldn't extend the board high enough without the gantry/router having to pass through it. By mounting it on the inside of my front rail I can have a board sticking 3 feet above the CNC and still approach it with the router to cut slots or angled mortises on the face: A small version of the jig: Adjustable Angle Clamping Fixture - PROBOTIX

Some joinery I've come up with and cut on my Meteor: http://4dfurniture.blogspot.com/2016/05/creative-cnc-joinery-and-other-cnc-cut.html

4D


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## LDBecker (Jun 16, 2015)

Loved your joint examples, 4DThinker - and thanks for the pic of the angle clamping fixture - easier to understand in a pic. 

On the blog you have "pseudo-dovetail joints" - Isn't it possible to cut "real" dovetail joints - IF you use an actual dovetail bit? I would like to be able to completely bypass a dovetail jig with a CNC. Just like with a Leigh jig, I imagine you'd have to switch from a Dovetail bit to a straight bit for part of the operation. Or am I misunderstanding? I think I saw on the web somewhere that a guy developed a program for doing several kinds of joints on a CNC that could have the wood vertically mounted. - just looked it up, and there are a few: Jointcam uses a dovetail bit and a straight bit, but there is also something like Fingermaker/Tailmaker, 

As you can tell, I've been looking into this for a bit - thanks so much for adding to my understanding!

Larry


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## 4DThinker (Feb 16, 2014)

I made that pseudo dovetail joint example just to show an alternative way to make finger joints that have a locking feature in one direction. We also regularly cut what look like conventional through or half blind or tapered sliding dovetails using conventional 14 degree to 7 degree dovetail bits. Aspire won't preview them as they are undercutting, but once you know the profile/angle/true diameter of the bit it is not "too" advanced to draw up both male and female toolpaths for them. Not what I'd call a beginner process, but very accurate and precise fitting once you understand it. 

Aspire also has a gadget available for cutting both sides of a dovetail corner with the boards flat on the table using a small end mill. It too is a little "off", but makes a tight fitting and interlocking dovetail-ish corner. 

The joint I'm most proud of solving is the half blind mitered dovetail. Both halves of that joint need to be clamped at 45 degrees to the bit It makes a beautiful corner on cabinets or desks or small tables. These also can be cut on corners other than 90 degrees. 

4D


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## Nickp (Dec 4, 2012)

This CNC stuff is just too awesome...pretty soon a person can go shopping at "Bob's Furniture", take a picture of something they like, scan it into the computer and "Viola" it gets made...just throw in logs from the back yard...

Now that's woodworking...


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## 4DThinker (Feb 16, 2014)

There are machines out there that take rough dried wood in one end and spit out finished furniture parts from the other end. Not quite as simple as just scanning a photo. Someone still has to draw up and/or edit a drawing of each part of a project, then figure out how the best way to get the drawn part out of the rough wood. Not too far removed from the same process everyone used before CNCs came out. We use CNCs to do joinery and cut shapes reliably that are very difficult or impossible to do using any previous production method/tool. 

4D


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Nickp said:


> This CNC stuff is just too awesome...pretty soon a person can go shopping at "Bob's Furniture", take a picture of something they like, scan it into the computer and "Viola" it gets made...just throw in logs from the back yard...
> 
> Now that's woodworking...





4DThinker said:


> There are machines out there that take rough dried wood in one end and spit out finished furniture parts from the other end. Not quite as simple as just scanning a photo. Someone still has to draw up and/or edit a drawing of each part of a project, then figure out how the best way to get the drawn part out of the rough wood. Not too far removed from the same process everyone used before CNCs came out. We use CNCs to do joinery and cut shapes reliably that are very difficult or impossible to do using any previous production method/tool.
> 
> 4D


so much for the craft...
that's like fishing w/ lures by DuPont...


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## Gaffboat (Mar 11, 2012)

I'm not really interested in CNC work but I must say that this has been an interesting and informative discussion. Thank you Larry for your original question and 4D Thinker for all the educational answers.


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## LDBecker (Jun 16, 2015)

Thanks, Gaffboat and 4DThinker, HJ and others - I appreciate the welcome and patience. 

As I mentioned above, I HAVE conventional tools and HAVE used routers a fair amount (I have a Bosch 1613, a big PC mounted under the extension table of my UniSaw, a small PC in a kit to do door installations, a PC 890 kit, and my current normal use router is a Festool 1400 - eek! 5 routers - is there a support group for this?) - and I have done pattern routing and a LOT of router table-based routing, and endless attempts at perfection with my Leigh dovetail jig. I'm also computer-literate, so the CNC route seems a logical extension on that for me... i.e., making a pattern and following it with a router/bearing is not too far removed from designing it in software and implementing it. 

4DThinker - thanks so much for the examples, guidance and encouragement - really first class!

Larry


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## 4DThinker (Feb 16, 2014)

Router experience and PC experience will serve you well Larry. The CAD software (Aspire or whatever you choose) is where many with similar experience slow down. I had 2 years of drafting in high school and 2 design degrees well before I bought my first CNC, and felt very at home using it from the beginning. I've met many who never touched a CAD program though and found the terms used and drafting strategies required very foreign to them. 

Vectric.com has free trial versions of all their products avaiable for download. They also have several tutorial videos online that you can and should watch while you follow along in their software. Nothing they have goes deep into how to draft up orthographic views of a part to come up with a complicated joinery toolpath, but if you've been making furniture you should have some idea how to arrive at the info you'll need. 

Once you CNC you'll never go back. Have fun!

4D


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## LDBecker (Jun 16, 2015)

Yes, 4D (can I call you that? haha), I planned to download their trial version soon to play with it. 

I get what you're saying about drafting programs being a bit foreign - not my field at all (pastor), but I've been using Photoshop since the late 1980's, and have some experience with Illustrator. I tried Sketchup and found it disappointing (not nearly as cool/easy as I expected) and daunting, so I have a feeling that experience may fore-tell what's to come. Legacy actually has a LOT of videos showing how to use it, and since I expressed interest at one point in their machines, they invited me to watch their live weekly webinars (which are later put up on their YouTube channel). 


Thanks again!

Larry


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## 4DThinker (Feb 16, 2014)

You can call me whatever you want, Larry. I was in college when someone first called me a 4th dimension thinker. It came from me realizing that time was a variable (a dimension) to consider when designing furniture or interior spaces or whatever. I won a few awards for my furniture designs that had more than one phase they could shift into as time and how they were used changed. I was 40 the year when I first got on the internet and needed to come up with a user name. 4DThinker was the natural choice. There is another 4DThinker out there that google will find. Not sure how he came up with the name. He doesn't pop up in any of the topics I generally search for. 

The single advantage I've found in the CNCs probotix makes is something I doubt even they realized until I came along. It has moved them to add accessories and change their descriptions for the CNCs they sell The open t-track frame has 4th dimension potential. You can use them just as they come. You can also modify and reconfigure them over time as what you want to use them for grows or changes. We have a large Multicam CNC in the college shops where I teach. It definitely does NOT have a 4th dimension. It will only ever be used to cut 2d and 3d work that it has been able to cut since the first day we got it. I cut things on my Meteor that I suspect no one else in the world had imagined cutting on a CNC. A web search for CNC joinery finds very little innovation beyond slightly modified versions of conventional woodworking joints. A flatpack CNC-cut cabinet might have it's own charm, but none I've seen get close to being "fine furniture" JMHO.

4D


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## edison auto (Nov 13, 2015)

Larry I have not cut any parts for furniture yet as I am still getting used to what my nebula can do with the aspire program. I have the fourth axis which I hope to use someday. I also bought my nebula to builder rocking chairs for friends and family with new children. I I currently build every new child a chair of some kind when they turn one. I hope to be able to duplicate them and give them to hospitals. I am not in for the money only the pleasure. I am looking forward to the convention in Orlando in october to learn more. Friday night dinner is still my treat. Hope see you and 4d there 
Mark


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## 4DThinker (Feb 16, 2014)

After taking a long look at the Maverick CNC it appears to have cross bars that would limit what you could mount below the gantry/spindle. Here is an example of why the t-slotted extrusion and open frame design of Probotix's CNCs comes in handy:

4D Furniture Thoughts: Supporting Assembled Projects Beneath the CNC.

4D


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## LDBecker (Jun 16, 2015)

Wow - I really hadn't thought of mounting things BENEATH the table... you're making my head explode!

Did you look at the Maverick video on the front page of Legacy's web site? Their example, at about 1:40 into the video, of a "tapered rope twist table leg," is REALLY interesting to me. Not that I would make such a thing, but the concept of using a ball end cutter (which would take "approximately 3 hours") vs. Legacy's method of using a "profile cutter," which would take "approximately 6 minutes." He also mentions being able to put in multiple bits in the same job with tool changes in it. 

Does that make sense? The profile cutter use seems like REALLY a good idea, and I don't see others doing that at all. The other recent video with the Maverick that's on their YouTube channel, called "Legacy CNC 3 station demonstration," where they build a 3-legged pedestal, blows me away and is the direction I'd like to go in making furniture (again, not that I need too many 3-legged pedestal tables) - but the tooling use seems really interesting. 

Larry


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## 4DThinker (Feb 16, 2014)

I've watched all the videos you mentioned. I can't seem to get any of my college students interested in making anything fancier than a simple tapered leg (or baseball bats) on the rotary axis we have, but you don't need a moving dead center to do tapered cuts. VCarve and Aspire both have a fluting toolpath that will move any bit down however much you want over the length of the chosen vector(s), down straight, down then back up, or down then straight then back up. It can do that in straight sloping moves or using arcing (curved) moves. To do spirals all you need is an angling vector that travels the diameter of the cylinder however many times you want and slopes across the cutting area to end up where you want after all those rotations. Legacy may have software that automates making those toolpaths, but it isn't really needed once you get to understand how Aspire and post processors work. 

If you need a shape that there is a profile cutter available to make, then of course it will be quicker to cut than making the shape a 3D model then using a small round nose bit to do it. A 2" cylinder can be made with 4 passes of a 1" radius roundover bit, and that is trivial to toolpath for in Aspire. Or you could make it with a small end mill and 150 to 180 passes down the length as the blank rotates a couple degrees each pass. You could also make the same cylinder by making several passes on the side or end of a straight bit moving slowly up the length as the blank turns. Have the bit follow a profiling path to end up with a much fancier (but not spiraling) leg. 

I don't see many people making or selling furniture with such fancy legs as the examples they show. You'll still have far more design and toolpathing time into one than might be recoverable when you sell it, but even simpler parts can be done with varying degrees of efficiency once you start to realize the options/possibilities. What no training or example videos will show you is how to do that original complex cut no one before you every imagined making. I get to do those fairly often as my design students come up with previously impossible things to make. 

Don't knock those 3 legged tables. Small tables like that are usually my best sellers when I do a craft show. Make sure you sell them as tables though. Chairs come with liability. 

4D


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## LDBecker (Jun 16, 2015)

4D,

I am so grateful for the time you're taking to help me sort this out! 

I think you're right when you say, "What no training or example videos will show you is how to do that original complex cut no one before you ever imagined making." There are obviously some SIGNIFICANT omissions in all these sales videos and examples-though I must say, Legacy is putting a lot of stuff out there, even a couple of times a week. Really don't see anyone else doing that. 

Have you ever been to a woodworking show and seen the demos of whatever machine or jig-of-the-day is being sold? The are so slick, and have that one fancy thing down and if you pry open your wallet, YOU TOO can, with the touch of a button, make this perfect thing, or this AMAZING, decorative joint (Incra? Leigh? Ugh!!!). 

And then there are the "Booth Babes," the very attractive young ladies at the demo booths (at least here in CA), who seldom, if ever, have any idea what they're trying to sell, but give the impression that buying THIS thing will enable you to perfectly do whatever, AND come with an adoring model to be so impressed... The first WW show I attend in California 20 or so years ago featured "Miss Makita" - um, what? Sorry for rant... But this kind of reminds me of that... Buy this CNC, push the button. And amazing things will magically appear. 

I'm at the stage now of sorting out finances so I can order a CNC in late July or Aug. not in a huge rush, but his is much more complicated and expensive that I was originally thinking when I saw my first CNC machines at Rockler a year or two ago.

Thanks again, 4D
(Now, where are those Booth Babes?)

Larry


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## edison auto (Nov 13, 2015)

Larry I agree with you. So far with my nebula I have only done signs and plaques. Now I am ready to look at making small chairs and t tables for kids. I agree with 4d that there are things done conventional ways that may be quicker than drawing and programming my cnc . Experimental time is here and as HJ would say it is time to make some kindling for the fireplace. Lol
Mark


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## beltramidave (Jan 6, 2016)

Larry,

I know a guy in CO that bought one of the first Maverick's and raves about it and the support from Legacy. I think he (Doug) is featured on the Legacy website. If interested, I could give you his contact info. He is also on the Vectric forums as Creation in Wood. He is a very knowledgeable furniture builder as well.

Dave


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## LDBecker (Jun 16, 2015)

edison auto said:


> ...time to make some kindling for the fireplace. Lol
> Mark


Hah! I am GREAT at making kindling! And scraps for my "oops" bin of wood that is left over and may use for something sometime (I have pieces that are 10 or more years old... Some day).

Larry


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## LDBecker (Jun 16, 2015)

Hi, Dave,

I had actually noticed Creation in Wood's signature in the Vectric forum where he mentions the Maverick (I think it popped up in a Google search). Yes, since you offer, I might like to write to him. 

Thanks!

Larry

Edit: Holy Cow! I looked at Doug's stuff on Legacy's web site- that last piece shown, the Mission/Arts & Crafts-style desk, is EXACTLY the kind of stuff I am wanting to build!!!! I have been looking at that style for years, trying to master the "cloud lift" and ebony plugs. Stunned! Thanks!


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## beltramidave (Jan 6, 2016)

Email sent with Doug's email address. I am sure he would be more than willing to answer any of your questions.

Dave


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

Larry,

Just remember, there is a "learning curve" and you have to be able to "roll over" before you can crawl, let alone walk.

When I saw my first CNC demonstration live at a WW Show (and it was a Legacy) I thought you just scanned a picture, played with some settings and out popped a finished object. I was stoked and ready to jump in. This is cool and rather easy - Not!!!

I will say Legacy has some of the best tutorials I have seen (and 4D is right, it is Aspire they use no matter what they call it), but I still have no regrets going with Probotix, having dealt with Len and company. At Legacy you deal with employees, and customer support has had some unfavorable reviews. At Probotix you deal with the owner.

That, and a "whole lot" cheaper.

HJ

But Legacy does have a rather neat 3 head cutter, but it's mounted on a single gantry. But cool, nontheless.


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## LDBecker (Jun 16, 2015)

HJ,

Don't worry - I get the learning curve thing. And the WW Show type of demos you're talking about are what I was kind of making fun of myself about - the demonstrators know how to do a couple of things and they've done it HUNDREDS of times. Of COURSE it's easy for them to do. The wood is all precisely dimensioned and set up for them - it almost is that easy. But in the real world, you dimension the wood yourself, and it isn't always perfect... (my 12 inch jointer/planer was a little off for a while and it drove me NUTS - I took half a day and reset all the knives... sweet now!)

It IS funny to watch the attractive young girls lure the older geezers into the booths - though that hasn't been happening much since the recession hit a few years ago. 

I think one of the first WW show demos I saw was for a Legacy ornamental mill. I just Googled that and IT'S THE SAME GUY doing the setup and demo of the new Maverick CNC. He's a bit grayer now (as am I). Similar products are being made with the device - There's that 3-legged table again. 

I AM confused about their use of software. They do have the Vectric Aspire software, but when they talk about their 5 axis turning center, they never mention Aspire - they talk about their "CCAM" software. I wonder if Aspire is able to access the turning center, or if it's just their own software. 

I DO really like the Maverick having a table, horizontal mount and turning center (9"!) and table all accessible at the same time. It seems like it's trying to be an all-in-one system. But, as you say, others are a WHOLE LOT (HALF!) cheaper. 

I'm going to contact Dave's friend who bought one of the first Mavericks - I REALLY like some of the stuff he's doing. 

Another question - does the Probotix CNC have some way to mount things vertically, like for joinery? I think 4D made something for his... 

Larry


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

Larry,

4D is the go to guy using the vertical axis. You can quite easily engineer a jig for each application as it's needed. Now, both Edison Auto and myself got the rotary parts with our Nebulas, but haven't even tried to use them yet. I may never use mine, but I got the hookup for my machine. I'm still doing some text signs, but mostly 3d carving (which is very time consuming, but fun to create). Plus, converting to the vertical axis scares the bejeepers out of me. 

The nice thing about the Probotix machines is you can take part or all of the bed off, and you're only limited to how much space is available under the frame for material. The higher you mount it, the longer your vertical work length is. The Nebula will give you about a 3' x 4' work area. You can also "multitask" with that size bed.

Also, you can get all the parts "off the shelf" for Probotix machines. They are a relatively simple machine once you really look at it. You will also learn to be a technician, since it's quite impractical to have someone come out, if you can even find said person. So simplicity is a plus.

It's not quite as I envisioned, but it has been an "experience" - and a boost in my computer skills. You can check my (and others) albums and see the progression over time we've made.

HJ


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## LDBecker (Jun 16, 2015)

I was tracking with you ok until you wrote, converting to the vertical axis scares the bejeepers out of me." i'm not sure what that means. Don't you just cut the joint (e.g., a dovetail joint) onto the end of the vertical board and cut the corresponding part on a horizontal board? I'm thinking this COULD work like a computerize Leigh Jig. Or am more in a need for a nap than I thought?


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

Larry,

The new Probotix beds come in two sections so you can take a third of it off and do your vertical work --- if it fits the space. Mine came with a one piece MDF bed that I added T-slots and cross members for support. The rotery runs the whole length of the bed and allows you "carve" all the way around the whole 360 degress of a piece, the same principal as a lathe. What you're talking about is cutting two pieces so one fits in another. I haven't tried that yet, either. What you're saying is true in a simple sense, but the computer work is more time consuming than the actual joint cutting. I'm not that great with this CAD and CAM stuff, especially when you need pretty accurate settings. You got to remember, us old codgers never grew up with this stuff. Calculators weren't even in use when I went to school. We figured everything by the long method. Drafting was same way. T squares, triangles, #4 pencils, scales, and the like. So there is somewhat a fear factor here.

I have some stuff I would like to try along those lines, but haven't made the time yet. One of these days I may make the plunge and try.

Come to Orlando in Oct and meet some real experts and pick their brains. These people do some amazing stuff and will share ideas and how they put them all together. 

HJ


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## 4DThinker (Feb 16, 2014)

Cutting finger joints or dovetails or tenons or pin arrays (my term) with boards clamped vertically is not much different than cutting boards laying flat. You have to be able to clamp the board securely, know how to draw up and make tool paths for what you want done, and then touch off (zero out X/Y/Z) the router a bit more precisely (for precise fitting joints). Clamping vertically is easier with a jig, although one accessory Probotix now sells is a Dovetail/Box Joint cross bar just for that purpose. Mainly just a 60mm x 60mm t-slotted extrusion with pre-inserted slot nuts you can bolt clamps to. 

I started out just c-clamping parts to my 30mm x 60mm standard center cross bar but found it might twist or be out-of-square with the frame given the type of l-brackets used to mount it. OK for small parts, but not for large/heavy boards. Now using the clamping jig I designed that clamps to the front rail, and a digital angle finder that I can calibrate to the frame those vertical or angled or compound angled joints/cuts that looks challenging to cut are really only just a slight challenge to draw up. 

Being a bit scared to do anything new is normal. I had a little fear to run my CNC Shark the first time, and it was just from there being a few unknowable things: Did I clamp the board well enough? Is my old router bit sharp enough? Did I have the feed speeds set right? Etc.. 

All those scary unknowns get answered with a little experience. My students only see my successful examples. There is often a piece of new scrap wood left behind with the mistake(s) on it though. A lesson they always learn themselves eventually. 

4D


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## edison auto (Nov 13, 2015)

Larry,
as HJ would say the mistakes are kindling for the fireplace. Unfortunatley i do not have a fire place in florida. My first cut i had the spindle turning backwards based on the wiring diagram that came with it. I broke the bit and moved the board and clamp. I now run anything that i am unsure about on purple project foam from home depot before chucking a piece of wood. Like HJ i have the rotary axis and may never use but if i want to try something then at least i have it. i am running the aspire 8.02 version and have not upgraded yet to the newest download. The tool sensor works perfect now that i figured out and i am going to order the z puck next. it is super nice to be able to talk to Len or one of his employees about a problem or a new piece that is coming out. My bed came with the 2 piece and had the cross support for vertical clamping. I looked at the Legacy machines because money was not a concern and was ready to pull the trigger on one of their $17k machines until i read the router forum and started tracking 4d. He is truly the professor of the group. You cant go wrong with the Probotic unit. I have the nebula.
Mark


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## LDBecker (Jun 16, 2015)

4D - Thanks for the affirmation of what I had pretty much sorted out on the vertical board routing. I knew it HAD to be similar to what a Leigh Dovetail Jig could do - same concept... In fact, poking around the Shopbot forums I found mention of a G-code generator that could make the code for cutting Dovetails, fingers and soon (according to the author), mortise and tenon joints. Here's the link:JointCAM - CNC Dovetails and Box Joints I believe there are other programs like it. I wonder if the Probotic machines will work with that... the linux computer running the machine is a little out of my field of expertise - I'm a PC guy (though I'm writing this on a souped-up iMac I use for video editing). 

Edison Auto/Mark - Money IS a concern for me - but not ultimately the last word on it. The Legacy Maverick looks amazing to me primarily for four reasons: 
1) the way they do tool paths using special bits to do in one or two passes things that other machines take 10 or 15 to do, and as their sales video says (I know, I know...), does in 6 minutes what other machines would take 3 hours to do. Their bits for ornamental lathe shaping seem amazing; 
2) The Maverick lets you have 3 stations set up at once (3 axis, vertical mounting, turning center).
3) The turning axis takes a 9" diameter by 5' piece of wood- um... wow... I don't plan to turn anything that big, BUT (and here's the interesting part to me), I THINK this means you can mount something in it STATIONARY, machine a carving or something on one side of it, tell it to rotate the part 90 degrees, and machine the other side, and so on. Basically 3D turning. Their video of the making of a hammer-head walking stick kind of shows this concept (at about 4:19 into the video): 



 I can't even begin to imagine the programming needed to make such a thing, but...
4) They make a big deal about their training - offered on-site and via videos. I would normally discount such things quite a bit, but they are actually doing it. In fact, I've been receiving invitations to join their on-line webinars for some time. I've watched a few, but without a machine or the program, it doesn't make much sense.

There are negatives as well - cost ($$$!!!), and some bad reports of their customer service (mostly about their older machines)

Am I (still) misunderstanding what I'm seeing? 

I've come quite a way in my understanding of CNCs since I first posted here. This group is amazing and generous. Looking back, I see how naive and even silly my original question was - BUT you listened and responded anyway. How cool is that? 

My original question was about making something from paper plans - maybe not exactly possible, but perhaps taking the MEASUREMENTS from paper plans and developing some of the parts, or even templates for some of the parts to be manually routed or cut, is quite possible...

Again, thanks all so much,

Larry


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## 4DThinker (Feb 16, 2014)

Nothing wrong about what you've stated that the the Maverick can do. It only has one cutting head though. You can have three different projects clamped to it at one time but it will only cut one at a time. To that point I can do exactly the same on the nebula we have in our university shop. It has a rotary axis down one side, and the main area opens up so vertical parts can be clamped against an inner rail, and you can still clamp a part flat on the remaining flat area of the bed. You only have to put a bed panel back in place if you decide to cut something that starts out 2' x 4'. and you only have to cover the rotary well if you start with a 3' x 4' piece. Covering any area is as simple a dropping an MDF panel into the frame. 

Tool path creation to turn a rectangular block of wood into a fancy finished part can often be done several ways. I had a student who wanted to make 2" thick rocker rails for her design with a 1" rounded over edge I first drew up a tool path as a 3D object in Aspire. It took 2.5 hours to cut one test rocker half in foam. Our classes don't last that long. I went home and redrew it so I could use 2D profile tool paths and a larger ball nose bit to shape the roundover. That cut the time down to 15 minutes each. I then stumbled across a large 1" roundover bit in the back of a drawer. We were able to use a single perimeter vector to move that profile bit around the rockers in 3 depth passes. 5 minutes cut time. 

So although most cutouts, pockets, and joinery are done with end mills, and most 3D "carved" signs have to be done with a small ball nose, you can (as Legacy does) use any bit made to chuck into a router if you can just get the wood clamped under it the right way. You can draw up all the needed toolpaths in Aspire as I do, but extra cash can buy you other programs to automate some standard activities. 

I'm a windows guy, and had some trepidation about Linux when considering my Probotiix purchase. The version of Linux they include looks and acts very much like windows though. Stick a thumb drive into the machine and a file browser will pop up so you can find the file you want to cut. Drag and drop it to the desktop is what I typically do. I've set up my LinuxCNC install to look in the desktop folder when you ask it to open a new file. 

I get project plans from several places. Paper plans out of woodworker magazines. PDF files downloaded from the web. CAD files from my students. Original projects I've designed myself, etc.. With a paper plan your best bet is to simply redraw the parts you want to cut from it into Aspire. Not hard with the drawing tools provided. Some PDFs are drawn using vectors. I can often import them directly into Aspire, delete unneeded parts of the drawing, re-scale what is left to exact size, and set about making toolpaths. CAD drawings from students usually include far more than I need, and not exactly what I need to make the tool paths they'll need. 

The plans you get may show how to make a project using more conventional shop equipment and NOT a CNC. They may not have any view of how the tenons look from the end, but that's what you'll need to draw to cut them out with the board clamped vertically. You have a CNC though, and may be able to come up with a BETTER way to connect all the parts. Sliding tapered dovetails are relatively easy to draw up and cut on a CNC, yet very tricky and unlikely to be used when no CNC is available. My Pin Array is a far better joint than a single tenon in the same application, but no one will suggest such a joint using conventional shop tools. I can create that joint as a pocket for a 20 minute cut time, or spend a little more time drawing it up as a continuous (bit doesn't lift up) offset profile cut around each pin to cut the time down to 3 or 4 minutes each. The mortise array side of such a joint can be set up as a pocket, a profile, or a drill toolpath. Which you choose depends on the size of each hole and which bits you have available. 

I'm wary of the Maverick machine despite it's versatile design. I never make the same thing twice though, and it is the odd request I know I'll get eventually that I'm confidant I can configure my nebula for but not confidant the Maverick can be opened up to cut. I suspect I was the first meteor/Nebula owner to mount them on fours legs but not a table top. That pit beneath the cutting area is priceless, and the key reason I chose a machine with two Y motors and no under-bed gantry parts. Of all the things I've cut already, I'd say 2 to 3 percent of what we cut on our Meteor or Nebula could NOT be cut on a Maverick. Ours is an unusual shop though.  We build whatever the students come up with, even if it is impossible. 

4D


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

Well said 4D.

I can't, at least not yet, do all that stuff - but I got the machine to do it if I ever want to go that route. Actually, I'm having a ball creating these 3d signs and plaques. Not enough time in a day to do and learn everything I want to.

I got a small scale set of plans I want to cut out -- got to figure out how to get them laid out on 2' x 4' panels.

HJ


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## 4DThinker (Feb 16, 2014)

5th axis hype....

Not a bad trick to raise or lower the 4th axis alignment to make tapers, but completely unnecessary if you have Aspire or Vcarve Pro. No matter which part of a Maverick you use, the router bit can only move in 3 directions. X, Y, and Z. Rotating the work dynamically with a 4th motor gives you a true 4th axis. Tilting that axis but not dynamically during a cut doesn't add a 5th axis. That is no different than me clamping a board at an angle under the bit. I often rotate and clamp the board so the bit can approach it at a different angle other than flat. Do I get to call it 5 axis CNCing if the angle is a compound angle? X, Y, Z, plus rotated around the X axis plus rotated around the Y axis? Not if I'm not doing the rotation dynamically during a cut. 

And if you need to rotate the axis of the 4th axis accessory to make tapers the same way you can do that on a Meteor or Nebula by just a little modification of how it mounts to the frame. No need to, but doable none the less. I've made sets of tapered legs for students on my rotary axis. I can cut them with several passes of an end mill up and down the length using the fluting toolpath, a small stepover with a big ball end bit as the bit progresses in a taper down the length while the rotary spins, or a tapering profile pass down the side of the work using a long straight end mill as the rotary spins. 

A true 5th axis typically has the router/spindle mounted on a long stem. It can move the stem left/right, forward/back, or up/down, and also rotate the spindle dynamically about the Y axis and Z axis to approach the work from any side at any reasonable angle. 

4D


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## LDBecker (Jun 16, 2015)

I am absolutely blown away at your generosity of time and effort on my behalf, 4D. It's obvious that you're a teacher! You understand pretty well (probably better than I understand myself!) my concerns and questions. 

I am looking at CNC use as part of the next phase of my life - the "what's next" part of my journey as I move towards retirement (almost 62 now, maybe another 5 years or so), and I don't want to hit that point and have NO IDEA what to do or where to start. I have been learning the ins-and-outs of woodworking for more than 3 decades in preparation for this move... I kind of like seeing a path and where it leads, but am often surprised a bit.. but not much. 

I likely WOULD make a thing several times over for sale - maybe even dozens of times. I also currently make things for our church's advent craft festival - where we have kids/parents/grandparents make crafts together. A highlight has been a nativity scene that I make... dozens of them... on the scroll saw and/or bandsaw... it takes WEEKS of spare time, but it is always the highlight of the event, and I see them in peoples' houses every year. I imagine a cnc would make pretty quick work of such a thing, and enable it to be more detailed and much nicer. 

Any plans I would follow from a magazine or whatever would certainly have to be adapted for CNC use as well as things that I know how to use to speed up the process. For example, I use a Festool Domino to make loose tenon joints - holy cow, did that revolutionize my woodworking (HIGHLY recommended!). Using a CNC to cut the (for example) 8mm slots in parts to fit the Dominos would be child's play, and the placement would be precisely correct. The CNC would really help in making the curved parts of furniture and those pesky "cloud lifts" in the Green and Green-inspired furniture and crafts I like to make. 

I don't know which direction I want to go for a machine... a Probotix Nebula, fully configured with rotary axis and stand and so on, specs out at about $8,400 - then add the Aspire software and you're at $10,400. A similarly spec'd Legacy Maverick would spec out at $19.3k with the software. I'm trying to figure out if the differences are worth twice the money... 

(I've had this reply on my screen all morning and had too many interruptions - just saw your comment on the 5th axis)

(edited out snarkyness) - Edited - I'm not sure I fully understand the difference between a true 5th axis and a hybrid one that the Legacy machines seem to offer. I believe I understand your point, though, 4D...

I appreciate the help in thinking through all of this. I THINK my next step is to spend some time with the free Aspire trial and actually design some things that I want to make to see how it all works. I've watched enough videos on it... now to work. More questions may be following...

Larry


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## 4DThinker (Feb 16, 2014)

Just a note about the training videos Vectric supplies.... None that I know of show the unusual ways you can use a CNC that has the potential Probotix CNCs or even the Maverick does. Plenty of creative work can be done using just 3 directions of motion and a flat bed, so that's about all they cover. The software has far more capability than most bother using, and once you get past the point where their render engine can't give you a preview it gets a bit more challenging. Dovetail and t-slot bits undercut and that can't be shown. The render view can't show if your toolpaths will actually be cut on a board mounted at an angle or compound angle to the X/Y cutting plane. That is where the creative furniture joinery solutions usually lie though. That is where drafting knowledge and experience, and some faith (which you surely already have) come in useful if not absolutely necessary. Tenons on the square end of a board are trivial and easily drawn, previewed, toolpathed, and cut. Tenons on an angled or compound angled end of a board require knowing what the available volume is for the tenon when the board is cut at that angle. The tenon usually needs to be shifted toward the outer edge to still have enough room to be cut from the remaining wood. Happens often making stretchers for tables or chairs that have legs that splay out from vertical.

You are right to start with a CNC that has the capabilities we have been talking about though. I started with a CNC Shark and cut every student part for a year that we could imagine needed cutting on a CNC. No one imagined using a CNC to cut the fancy angled joinery I now cut because no one had ever seen it being done with a CNC. I kept fussing with my Shark bed to get it to where I could clamp something vertical under it but finally gave up. I then bought myself a Probotix Meteor not for what I now use it mostly for, but instead for just the larger bed size. My first bench for it had a top and the CNC simple sat up on it. I took the included MDF bed off so I could add t-track to it, and then realized how easily it would be to make jigs and fixtures for more complicated cuts given the open frame t-slotted design. 

It was only when I knew of the potential this open frame has that we started making more and more use of it for complex cuts. Students come to me with something they want to make/have done. I reflect on what I know about all the equipment we have in our college shop to come up with a solution. Every workshop machine has potential beyond how 99% of people use it, and we often exploit that potential. These CNCs we've been taking about simply have exponentially more potential than most simpler 3-axis CNCs do. You find it in the jigs/brackets/fixtures you can make to fasten to the frame. You can make a mounting bracket for a special part and use it once, or leave it in place and cut a few hundred similar parts with it. Any time I know I'll be using the same toolpath file more than a couple times I'll spend jig design time up front to simplify loading and clamping blanks into the CNC for cutting. Then I'll look into optimizing the tool path(s) to cut as quick as possible.

Legacy videos may reveal much of their machines' rare potential, but not show exactly how the tool paths to make those cuts were made. I live in that spooky zone between machine capability and the software used to create tool paths. If you want to use a CNC to make interesting furniture you'll need to be there too. 

4D


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