# Is a laminated top necessery?



## tdale (Feb 18, 2012)

I made a 2" thick top of birch, which I intend to use as a router top. I might reduce the thickness a bit, but ït'll at least be 1,5". I planned to use it like that, with no formica, plastic or anything else on top. 

Is that a bad idea? I'm concerned that it might warp over time. I thought about routing a couple of dovetail slots across the boards underneath, and glue some hard wood in there, or even a couple of metal bars, to keep it flat. 

Any advice is appreciated. 

Tommy


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## The Russell (Feb 12, 2012)

The formica will give you a harder surface and you will not get a wear groove but make sure it is stuck down flat.


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## Marco (Feb 21, 2009)

I have a birch top that I keep a coat of paste wax on. It works for me but most people use a formica type cover for the top and bottom and a hard wood around the sides.

My top originally had formica on it. I used 3M's Super 77 adhesive on it and if it was out in the sun or got real hot it would peel right off................ so I eventually peeled it off and put on a coat of wax. I figure that when it warps I'll build another.


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## Jack Wilson (Mar 14, 2010)

Marco said:


> "most people use a formica type cover for the top and bottom"



Right, if you only laminate 1 side, there is a strong potential of that side curling as moisture can access the under side and cause it to swell.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi

Has anyone looked under the kitchen /bath room counter tops laminate/formica on one side only and they have water on them all the time.. and they last for years and years..  I have seen some with water marks as big as a bath tub and they still hold fast without any curling..
====


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## Marco (Feb 21, 2009)

bobj3 said:


> Hi
> 
> Has anyone looked under the kitchen /bath room counter tops laminate/formica on one side only and they have water on them all the time.. and they last for years and years..  I have seen some with water marks as big as a bath tub and they still hold fast without any curling..
> ====



I have Bob and that cheap old particle board that it's stuck to ain't warped one bit. I guess if you store or use your tools in the rain or snow you had better have your wood as close to waterproof as possible and 3 coats of paste wax on your tools.


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## ggom20 (Feb 1, 2012)

bobj3 said:


> Hi
> 
> Has anyone looked under the kitchen /bath room counter tops laminate/formica on one side only and they have water on them all the time.. and they last for years and years..  I have seen some with water marks as big as a bath tub and they still hold fast without any curling..
> ====


Hello!
Yes i use it too !
Its awfull, but its using a waterproof glue in case of kitchens and bathrooms
the aglomerate is green signaling it's water resistance.
In case of wood I' s quite different , the paint or waterproofing has to be 
applied on every side.Seen a nice sample of bending large plywood just painted one 
side , for use as support to an art painting live- event last year.
After 1 year, its all bended!

Told them to paint white both side , they did not care .
Regards


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## Jack Wilson (Mar 14, 2010)

bobj3 said:


> Hi
> 
> Has anyone looked under the kitchen /bath room counter tops laminate/formica on one side only and they have water on them all the time.. and they last for years and years..  I have seen some with water marks as big as a bath tub and they still hold fast without any curling..
> ====


Bob, now don't go giving me a hard time! I have laid plywood in the grass for a few hours and had it bow signifigantly. So there you go!


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Jack


hahahahahaha I'm not Jack,,, I have seen it used on the job sites for walk ways in the mud/snow and you are right it will bow in a heart beat..but then many will pull it up and put it on the floor or the roof for the sub floors the norm ..at 30.oo bucks each now days they don't waste it now days..  it will go flat one more time.
Once used in the WW11 for PT boats by the tons because they could get it wet and it would bend right around the shape of the boat ( PT 109 plywood boot )

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...McaXtwe23qizDQ&sqi=2&ved=0CGIQ9QEwAw&dur=2241

==



Jack Wilson said:


> Bob, now don't go giving me a hard time! I have laid plywood in the grass for a few hours and had it bow signifigantly. So there you go!


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## Marco (Feb 21, 2009)

Pop the bands on a new bundle of flat plywood and take a sheet off. If you don't use it that day it will be ready for the PT 109. No fun especially if it is tounge and groove. :no:


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

tdale said:


> I made a 2" thick top of birch, which I intend to use as a router top. I might reduce the thickness a bit, but ït'll at least be 1,5". I planned to use it like that, with no formica, plastic or anything else on top.
> 
> Is that a bad idea? I'm concerned that it might warp over time. I thought about routing a couple of dovetail slots across the boards underneath, and glue some hard wood in there, or even a couple of metal bars, to keep it flat.
> 
> ...


Birch boards laminated together may move with humidity changes which would make the top useless as a router table. I made some cutting boards with about 1" x 2.5" boards and they move quite a bit. I also made a 14" wide mantle top by splining a 2x8 to a 2x6 and it hasn't moved but I kerfed the backside where it wouldn't show. Kerfs were about 3/8" deep x about 1.25" spacing. 
The boards will move across the grain with humidity changes so gluing to the backside will likely cause some of the joints to split apart. Metal strips might help but I would make the screw holes oversiz, or better yet make slots so that the screws can slide back and forth.
Sealing top and bottom might help but wood absorbs moisture easiest through the ends. I've seen someone blow cigarette smoke into one end of a 6" small square of red oak and the smoke came out the other end. 

Mdf and particle board are usually better chices because they are dimensionally stable so you can attach them to a good frame and they will stay put. But you already have the birch top so you might as well give it a try. The worst that can happen is that you'll have to replace it.


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## AxlMyk (Jun 13, 2006)

I use MDF. 2 sheets of 3/4". I glue the convex sides together )( to cancel out any bows/warps.
A good thick coating of furniture paste wax is all I use on the top.
Lasts for years and years.


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## MikeMa (Jul 27, 2006)

For what its worth, I have a router table, 2 TS wings, and a couple counter tops that I only put the laminate on the top, and have not had a problem with curling. 

The counter tops and router table have been around for about 6 years now. The counter tops are in a bathroom where the humidity jumps around rapidly, where the router table is in the garage with no climate control.

One thing that MAY help prevent curling is that the router table has been edge banded with some hardwood


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## Cochese (Jan 12, 2010)

My first was double MDF with a laminate top. No bowing.

My current is a double phenolic plywood top. Never put anything on it, but I suppose some wax wouldn't hurt.

My next table? No idea. May go back to laminate if I can find another piece cheap.


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## Mike (Nov 22, 2004)

Is laminate essential? No. There are some very good reasons to use it though. Formica is a very durable surface, much more so than wax on MDF or plywood. It forms an impermeable moisture barrier and adds rigidity. Formica on both sides of your top maintains a balance to counteract any stresses which might cause warping. The surface makes it easy for wood to slide. You can make pencil marks on Formica and it is easy to clean; zero maintenance. These reasons make sense to me so I build my tables this way.


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## espookid (Jan 2, 2012)

bobj3 said:


> Hi
> 
> Has anyone looked under the kitchen /bath room counter tops laminate/formica on one side only and they have water on them all the time.. and they last for years and years..  I have seen some with water marks as big as a bath tub and they still hold fast without any curling..
> ====


They don't ,they have a balancing sheet on the back,it is just a different colour


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## T...K21 (Feb 11, 2012)

I've never seen a router table that didn't have some kind of lamination on top. Not saying they don't exist or it couldn't be done.

I know you said you were avoiding adding another layer, but how about a piece of 1/4" melamine.

When I was kid we use to build RC boat kits that used birch ply for the exterior of the hull. We use to apply epoxy and sanded it down to a smooth finish. The finish was transparent, hard, slick, and waterproof.


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## gmiller25 (Dec 20, 2005)

When I rebuilt my router table top, I used the bottom layer of 3/4" thick MDF, which is pretty stable. On top of that, I added Corian with T-slots running front to back for fence lockdown, and one side to side for using a miter gauge and featherboard. The Corian is smooth enough to assist in easy use of a miter gauge, coping sled, or feeding stock.


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## Wood Chip (Apr 10, 2011)

Anyone have strong feelings about using marine plywood?


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## PURSITA2 (Mar 6, 2010)

I HAD A NYLON-TYPE CUTTING BOARD THAT WAS TOO LARGE (APPROX. 15' x 20" and 1/2" THICK) FOR EASY KITCHEN USE. I MOUNTED THIS ON REMOVABLE RAIL EXTENSIONS MADE FROM BED FRAME ANGLE IRON ATTACHED TO MY TABLE SAW. THIS HAS BEEN LARGE ENOUGH FOR EVERYTHING I NEEDED TO DO. OUTFEED SUPPORTS INCREASE THE EFFECTIVE SIZE. THE SURFACE IS QUITE SLIPPERY. THANKS FOR MAINTAINING THIS SITE.


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## jimini2001 (Mar 28, 2010)

IF you have a 2" thick table top I think it is up to you if you want a laminate on it or not. Most of us do things the way we do because that is the way we were taught or how we learned on our own as to what works best for us. If you live where there are large changes in humidity you may have a problem but laminating one side is not going to change that. If the humidity in your area is fairly constant and your top is attached to a good base then I would say it is up to you. Laminates are easy to clean and provide a smooth easy slide surface with low maintenance. The wood is easier to fix mars in if you happen to get any but takes more maintenance. With a 2" thick top I would say that it is up to you and your personal preference.


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## OPG3 (Jan 9, 2011)

Is a laminated top necessary? In one word: No. Here's the caveat, smooth and straight is absolutely necessary...It doesn't matter how you achieve smooth and straight. Now, to the finishes. The particle board under your kitchen counters is dry on both sides - unless you have holes in your surface treatment - and this is why it stays straight. Boards laid in the grass curl quickly...the top surface is exposed to more ventilation and the bottm surface picks-up moisture. Laminates are a great and inexpensive way to keep a surface straight and flat. To prevent bending, finish all sides similarly and support in a balanced-load method. And don't store your tools in the weather! Good luck!


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## boaterbob (Nov 10, 2011)

I think the solid wood top might be hard to keep clean and might even gouge more easilly than a laminated top. Also, you might think of hinging the top so as to make access to the router for bit change easier.


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## camelotww (Sep 30, 2004)

gmiller25 said:


> When I rebuilt my router table top, I used the bottom layer of 3/4" thick MDF, which is pretty stable. On top of that, I added Corian with T-slots running front to back for fence lockdown, and one side to side for using a miter gauge and featherboard. The Corian is smooth enough to assist in easy use of a miter gauge, coping sled, or feeding stock.


gmiller25,
Where did you get enough Corian to cover a router table. I love the idea, but I can't get Corian, locally, in large enough pieces. The local cabinet shops will sell me small scrapes, but that's all. To purchase larger pieces, I've been told I need some sort of license from the manufactures of Corian. Any help?
Thanks


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## ORBlackFZ1 (Jul 14, 2011)

*Did you use a straight on them?*



bobj3 said:


> Hi
> 
> Has anyone looked under the kitchen /bath room counter tops laminate/formica on one side only and they have water on them all the time.. and they last for years and years..  I have seen some with water marks as big as a bath tub and they still hold fast without any curling..
> ====


Did you use a straight edge on the counter tops to determine if they were flat across width, length and cross angle?

A flat router table top makes it much easier to produce consistent parts within tolerance.


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## gstewart (Jan 22, 2012)

*router top construction*



tdale said:


> I made a 2" thick top of birch, which I intend to use as a router top. I might reduce the thickness a bit, but ït'll at least be 1,5". I planned to use it like that, with no formica, plastic or anything else on top.
> 
> Is that a bad idea? I'm concerned that it might warp over time. I thought about routing a couple of dovetail slots across the boards underneath, and glue some hard wood in there, or even a couple of metal bars, to keep it flat.
> 
> ...


What I did was use two layers of 3/4" highdensity particle board with formica on both sides. The particle boards were glued using white woood glue and the formica was attached with contact cement. The edge was covered with hardwood strips gued with epoxy to seal it off completely from moisture. That might be overkill but is really not any more work. 

This makes for an attractive, very heavy and perfectly flat 1.5" top that allows virtually no moisture in. By using scrap formica pieces it is also very cheap to make.

The most important principle is that Bboth sides need to have the same covering to avoid warping.


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## JOAT (Apr 9, 2010)

*Re: Is a laminated router table top necessary?*

I say go with what you've got and see how it works. You can always replace it later.

My latest router table (several years now) is made with a 1/2" plywood top. It is three piece, not one, with the router plate also 1/2" plywood, which is why it wound up three pieces (not including the router plate), two are odd shapped and lock the router plate in place, it's just drop in. The top 'is' glued to a framework of 2X4s tho, so that probably helps. Probably cost me a grand total of less than $5 to put it together and works great, no warping so far. :dance3:


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## gppatnude (Jun 1, 2011)

*Laminated router table??*



tdale said:


> ... ... ... I planned to use it like that, with no formica, plastic or anything else on top.
> 
> Is that a bad idea? I'm concerned that it might warp over time. I thought about routing a couple of dovetail slots across the boards underneath, and glue some hard wood in there, or even a couple of metal bars, to keep it flat.
> 
> ...


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## routertracks (Nov 29, 2010)

Marco said:


> I have a birch top that I keep a coat of paste wax on. It works for me but most people use a formica type cover for the top and bottom and a hard wood around the sides.
> 
> My top originally had formica on it. I used 3M's Super 77 adhesive on it and if it was out in the sun or got real hot it would peel right off................ so I eventually peeled it off and put on a coat of wax. I figure that when it warps I'll build another.


Hello Marco,

You should have used 3M's 90. It's used more for laminate and laminate type adhering.
77 is used for adhering materials like paper and fabric to substrates. There are contact adhesives made for exterior use but are very expensive.

Mike


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## Jack Wilson (Mar 14, 2010)

gstewart said:


> The most important principle is that Bboth sides need to have the same covering to avoid warping.


AMEN, thank you! I stand VINDICATED!!!! Well not really, but close enough. That was my point all along, not that laying plywood in the grass is the same as having it on a stand in the shop, but that having one side more exposed to moisture poses a potential problem. As for counter tops with laminate only on 1 side, for the record, YES, I have seen some that were bowed, not a lot but I have come across them, and for the cost, why mess with it? Just laminate both sides and call it a day!


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## cowtown_eric (Apr 30, 2010)

Regards from Canada...

Lots of folks make elaborate router tables. 

I once made one with a laminated top which would accomodate two routers. It wasn't the moisture , but rather the weight of the router hanging there day after day that I figure caused it to sag in the middle. It had two aluminium t-slot bars across it too!

Same thing that happened with my previous two iterations.

My first router table was an off the shelf unit with a hardboard top, and the sag that happened to it (always downwards, never up!) prompted me to build my own.

I always worry about floor space, and although I've got a router table tucked under the table saw extensions, My next clever idea is to purchase a cast iron Table saw extension with cutouts for routers....

As it is now, for smaller router bits, I manufactured a tight fitting insert for my table saw which holds a laminate trimmer. 

That lets me use my fences and dust collection with minimal fuss. 

Anyway, I'm figuring the cast iron extension table will not only free up some workshop space, but make set-up easier. 

Just my thoughts.

Eric
in Calgary


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## Pitzik (Jun 10, 2011)

Might I suggest MDF w/ Formica glued on top + a couple coats of wax. I have had this setup for about 10 years & it's still dead flat.


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## dlw7945 (Jul 17, 2011)

I would encourage you to focus on the point of contact, where work piece meets bit, you should have consistant pressure as you pass the material across the bit. Using feather boards, clamps etc. 

un-conditioned/conditioned space makes a big difference in movement of wood, seal all ends. you may not notice surface change under counter sink material, my guess the "thickness" changes with dampness over time. moisture underside is differant then moisture sitting on top of open grain material. Go for the Maple application, focus on the point of contact

Dennis


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## Woodwasp (Oct 29, 2011)

Having made and used a number of surfaces on router tables over many years, I have hit on the "ideal" material and it is cheap. A trip to the local kitchen cabinet manufacturer and they are happy to let me have their sink cut outs from the kitchen bench top for $5. In Australia this is usually 33mm thick water resistant particle board with formica/laminate one side and melamine the other - just NEVER warps or bends. The 33mm thickness is great too when you have routed in mitre or Tee tracks. There must be an equivalent available in any country that installs kitchen sinks.


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## tdale (Feb 18, 2012)

That's what I thought about too! They removed an old kitchen at my job, but I was too late to get the top before they trew it away. But IKEA sells 2' x 4' kitchen desk tops for about 50$. 

But what is the "ideal" size for a router table? I guess if I have the room for it, the table can't really be too big...? Does anyone here have a 2x4 ft table? 


Tommy


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## Cochese (Jan 12, 2010)

My first table was 24x48, but it was just too big. About 24x32 seems just about perfect for me.


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## tdale (Feb 18, 2012)

Thanks! 

For my guitar body routing, 32" is more than enough, but a long table is nice if you rout long stock... I guess I'll have to see the top in real life before I decide how much to cut off. 

Tommy


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## Tommyt654 (Apr 5, 2009)

bobj3 said:


> Hi Jack
> 
> 
> hahahahahaha I'm not Jack,,, I have seen it used on the job sites for walk ways in the mud/snow and you are right it will bow in a heart beat..but then many will pull it up and put it on the floor or the roof for the sub floors the norm ..at 30.oo bucks each now days they don't waste it now days..  it will go flat one more time.
> ...


Factually incorrect about the PT boats, they weren't made of plywood an ancient myth that postdates war effort to repair them in combat situations with plywood as it was readily available, but never used to make a boat.

With accommodation for three officers and 14 enlisted men, the crew varied from 12 to 17, depending upon the number and type of weapons installed. Full-load displacement late in the war was 56 tons.

The hull shape of a PT boat was similar to the "planing hull" found in pleasure boats of the time (and still in use today): a sharp V at the bow softening to a flat bottom at the stern. PT boats were intended to plane at higher speeds, just like pleasure boats. The Elco and Higgins companies both used lightweight techniques of hull construction which included two layers of double diagonal mahogany planking utilizing a glue impregnated cloth layer between inner and outer planks. These planks were held together by thousands of copper rivets and bronze screws. The overall result was an extremely light and strong hull, yet it could be easily repaired from battle damage at the front lines.

As a testament to the strength of this type of construction, several PT boats withstood catastrophic battle damage and still remained afloat. For example, the forward half of future President John F. Kennedy's PT-109 (Elco) stayed afloat for 12 hours after she was cut in half by the Japanese destroyer Amagiri. PT-323 (Elco) was cut in half by a kamikaze aircraft on December 10, 1944 off Leyte, yet remained floating for several hours. Another was PT-308 (Higgins), had her stern sheared off by a collision with PT-304 during a night mission in the Mediterranean on 09 March 1945 and yet returned to base for repairs PT-167 (Elco) was holed through the bow off New Georgia on August 10, 1943, by a torpedo which failed to detonate. The boat remained in action and was repaired the next day.

In 1943, an inquiry was held by the Navy to discuss planing, hull design, and fuel consumption issues, but no major modifications were made before the end of the war. (Wooden Boat Forum) During the war, both Elco and Higgins came up with stepped hull designs which achieved significant increases in top speed, ("ElcoPlane" & "Higgins Hellcat") but the Navy rejected them for full production due to their increased fuel consumption and other considerations


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## ffjdh (Apr 16, 2010)

I'm thinking about using Formica for my table. Can anybody tell me how this stuff is sold? Is it sold in a full 4x8 sheet or in strips? Is it sold in one thickness or different thickness's? What do I use to glue it down? And how much should I expect to pay for it?


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## Jack Wilson (Mar 14, 2010)

guitardemon said:


> I'm thinking about using Formica for my table. Can anybody tell me how this stuff is sold? Is it sold in a full 4x8 sheet or in strips? Is it sold in one thickness or different thickness's? What do I use to glue it down? And how much should I expect to pay for it?


As far as I know, it is sold in 3x8, 4x8 and larger, and it is available in 2 thicknesses, a thinner for post forming, and then standard. I will update this post after some investigation if I find I am wrong. Also, just look for HPL, or high pressure laminate as it available from other manufactures besides Formica, Wilsonart and Nevamar to name the ones that I know of. 30"x96" is the smallest available sheet I've found. Try visiting a laminate shop and see if they have anything available that they want to get rid of.


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## boaterbob (Nov 10, 2011)

My local building supply has melamine coated (both sides) MDF. I used that for my router table top & good so far. Also, the melamine can be marked with a parminent marker to draw center lines. I printed some rulers on transparent lable stock for use with the fence.


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## grbrico (Feb 16, 2012)

Jack Wilson said:


> As far as I know, it is sold in 3x8, 4x8 and larger, and it is available in 2 thicknesses, a thinner for post forming, and then standard. I will update this post after some investigation if I find I am wrong. Also, just look for HPL, or high pressure laminate as it available from other manufactures besides Formica, Wilsonart and Nevamar to name the ones that I know of. 30"x96" is the smallest available sheet I've found. Try visiting a laminate shop and see if they have anything available that they want to get rid of.


I found a couple of pieces that are 30" x 96" but they were higher in price. The Formica Brand Laminate 48" x 96" White is only $42.00. I may just go that route. I'm thinking of using MDF and putting formica on both sides. We have a 8' x 16' steel layout table at work that I can lay the table top on and set a plate on top of it. Would that be a good way of doing it?

Greg


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## Chris Curl (Feb 13, 2012)

I was thinking about using 3/4" plywood or MDF and covering it with the Rustoleum countertop transformation system.

Anyone do that?

http://countertops.rustoleumtransformations.com/how-to-guide.php


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