# Shop Lighting



## Bob N (Oct 12, 2004)

Okay, let's tallk about shop lighting. 

While in my shop the last couple of times, I noticed that my florescent lights are starting to grow dimmer and the longer summer days are beginning to give way to the approaching fall season, meaning that I need to replace my bulbs soon. 

I like to replace all 12 bulbs at once so that I don't have to fool with it constantly. I use the 48" 2 bulbs to the fixture and last time I replaced them with the 40W daylight bulbs which did a good job of lighting the shop up during the long hours of darkness, but did not last very long. These bulbs run over $4.50 each and I am wondering if they are really that much better than the regular ones.

I thought I would see what everyone else is using and maybe find a less expensive alternative that works equally as well. Any advice or opinions on this subject?


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Bob

I have 14 light fixtures in the shop ( 2ea. ,8ft bulbs per fixture) and I'm always replacing them,,I have been thinking of putting back the new type, ( the pig tail type,florescent ) one bulb in a screw in fixture, they say they last longer and are cheaper to run..we have now have put many in the house and they do to seem to last longer...and they seem to be just as bright (40 to 100 watt per. bulb ) 

I would also like to see what others are doing 

I have a meter on the shop,I guess I should jot some numbers down to see what's going on,I do it all the time when I'm doing a welding job to get the true cost of the job..



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Bob said:


> Okay, let's tallk about shop lighting.
> 
> While in my shop the last couple of times, I noticed that my florescent lights are starting to grow dimmer and the longer summer days are beginning to give way to the approaching fall season, meaning that I need to replace my bulbs soon.
> 
> ...


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## Hamlin (Dec 25, 2005)

2 yrs ago, I replaced all of my florescent light fixtures. I went back to the screw in type. Only these bulbs are the newer version of florescent bulbs. So far, so good. I've had to add more fixtures but, I'm still using less bulbs and now getting the same amount of lighting. As Bj pointed out, they are cheaper to run. Cost wise, for me, I usually buy these in bulk to make it cheaper yet. 

Just my $0.02 worth.


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## TRN_Diesel (Feb 24, 2009)

When I put in my new lights as I progressed in the Garage Overal thread I went with T8 bulbs. I have three banks of lights spaced 4 feet apart runing across the 22 foot garage. I bought 8 foot lights and ran them end to end for a total of 16 feet leaving 3 feet on each wall. 

My shop has no dark spots and I can easily see anything I am working on.

Cost me over $400 but it is the best 400 I have spent and the electrical bill is noticeably less as well.


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## Bob N (Oct 12, 2004)

Don't know why it never dawned on me, but the old style screw fixtures with the new florescent bulbs sound like a great idea. I wonder if I can still get by with 6 fixtures or need to increase them. My shop is only 212 SF (12 1/2 X 17). Is there any kind of formula that applies to get proper light?


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hey Ken

I see you are using them,,the ones I put in the house are used in the upside way and them seem to go out in a shorter time than if they are used in the right side up way (bulb on top of the base) , do you find that to be true also ??  
I did ask the BOSS about them and she said they are about 4 times the price of the standard light bulb ,how big of a break to get in bulk ( big box buy of them ) ?

=========


Hamlin said:


> 2 yrs ago, I replaced all of my florescent light fixtures. I went back to the screw in type. Only these bulbs are the newer version of florescent bulbs. So far, so good. I've had to add more fixtures but, I'm still using less bulbs and now getting the same amount of lighting. As Bj pointed out, they are cheaper to run. Cost wise, for me, I usually buy these in bulk to make it cheaper yet.
> 
> Just my $0.02 worth.


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## RMilgie (Feb 23, 2009)

Hi all I have six 4' Fixtures and 3 of the pig tails all florescent. I like the 4 foot units they seem to provide an even wash of light through out the room and I use the spots for extra lighting in critical areas table saw,band saw and drill press I am very pleased with them.
I had the original florescent bulbs in the fixtures to start with, but as they burnt out I replaced them with the daylight bulbs, seems brighter.


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## Hamlin (Dec 25, 2005)

Hi Bj,

That is a good question. All of mine, including what's in the house are hanging bulb down. I've yet to have to replace any of them. They are higher in price compared to normal bulbs. I was constantly changing out those 4' bulbs at a cost similar to Bob's. HD is the cheapest around in my area. But, about every 3 months was changing bulbs. Since I've replaced with the pig tails, I haven't had to change one yet. Again, these are going on 2yrs. I think the savings is around 10 - 15 cents cheaper when in bulk. The real savings comes from how long they last and they do use less energy.  I forgot to add, I think the true price savings depends on where you get them at. Again, here, the cheapest around me is, HD.

Bob, I've had 6 of the 4' lights, when I replaced them with the pig tails, I only added two additional fixtures to help spread the light around. 

I'm a firm believer in the newer pig tail bulbs, they last so much longer and they do save energy.


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## xplorx4 (Dec 1, 2008)

Most of my 4' shop lights I bought 6 years ago and have yet to replace one tube due to burn out. I am using both tube and pigtail now so I will see what happens.


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## TRN_Diesel (Feb 24, 2009)

Bob said:


> Don't know why it never dawned on me, but the old style screw fixtures with the new florescent bulbs sound like a great idea. I wonder if I can still get by with 6 fixtures or need to increase them. My shop is only 212 SF (12 1/2 X 17). Is there any kind of formula that applies to get proper light?


Yes there is Bob. I referenced a article called Shop Lighting and it has everything you need to know about lighting. When I get back to the Edmonton I will dig it up and email you the article. 

Sorry but it will be a week before I get to it.


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## TRN_Diesel (Feb 24, 2009)

Another option is to replace your Balast wit the new T8 type. The electronic ones are much more energy efficient. You can actually use one balast to run a few set of lights to save even more money.


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## Bob N (Oct 12, 2004)

TRN_Diesel said:


> Yes there is Bob. I referenced a article called Shop Lighting and it has everything you need to know about lighting. When I get back to the Edmonton I will dig it up and email you the article.
> 
> Sorry but it will be a week before I get to it.



Hey.... thanks Dan, there is no rush so a week will be just fine.


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## dirkost (Jul 8, 2009)

Hi Ho: I may be somewhat of a perfectionist, but as the eyes get older the need for better light becomes more acute. I use four 8-foot HO flourescent fixtures that are recessed between the ceiling joists (actually TJI's). I also have a row of can lights running along one side where I thought I needed additional light, but the shop is so bright from the HO lights they make little difference. The advantage to having them recessed is that there is no possibility of hitting them with something, and they don't collect dust like the exposed fixtures do. I use streamline molding to hold lenticular plastic covers in place under them.

These are especially good in unheated of sometimes unheated spaces as they will start with temperatures well below freezing. (I also use them in the garage)

These fixtures were about $50 each when I put them in. The only downside is a slight hum, but this doesn't matter much to me because I tend to make a lot of noise in the shop anyway.

Dirk


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## Glenmore (Sep 10, 2004)

I'm using 4 foot t12 florescent bulbs and they are working fine so far. Next I'm going to get some white paint/ primer to white wash the ceiling of the basement did this when I made the shop at the church had to wear sun glass's after doing this.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

I shan't disappoint you Bob by not adding my experience. When I had this shed erected close to seven years ago, I had four 4' twin fluos, evenly spaced along the centre of the 20' roof. I had reflective insulation for the dual purpose of keeping the place cool and reflecting the light. It has been completely successful on both counts and the daylight tubes are the originals, every one of them also the starters. I just took these shots, no flash and it's a very dark night. I wonder if the premature failure mentioned by some could be due to the 110volts against our 240V.
Regarding the so called compact fluo. globes, these are being pushed vigorously by our government and in fact incandescent globes will eventually be banned. the experience here is that the life span is nowhere near as long as is being advertised, this is due to the fact that most are used upside down and the heat dries out the electrolytic capacitors in the electronics. 
It appears that our government hasn't yet decided how to dispose of these lamps which contain Mercury. Whatever you decide, DO NOT use Halogen unless you want headaches and/or eye problems.


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## Bob N (Oct 12, 2004)

Harry,

Let me get this straight. You have just 4 each 4' twin flous to light your entire shop? WOW! That is very efficient to say the least and from the pictures you posted it looks like plenty of light without many shaddy spots. 

That foil backed insulation must really do the trick and something that I may need to look at. It would be fairly easy to foil my ceiling and get the the reflective benefit. Something that has not crossed my mind and I appreciate your post suggesting yet another great idea.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

"Let me get this straight. You have just 4 each 4' twin flous to light your entire shop?"

You've got it in one Bob, when I took the shots I measured them to make sure of my facts.


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## TRN_Diesel (Feb 24, 2009)

harrysin said:


> I shan't disappoint you Bob by not adding my experience. When I had this shed erected close to seven years ago, I had four 4' twin fluos, evenly spaced along the centre of the 20' roof. I had reflective insulation for the dual purpose of keeping the place cool and reflecting the light. It has been completely successful on both counts and the daylight tubes are the originals, every one of them also the starters. I just took these shots, no flash and it's a very dark night. I wonder if the premature failure mentioned by some could be due to the 110volts against our 240V.
> Regarding the so called compact fluo. globes, these are being pushed vigorously by our government and in fact incandescent globes will eventually be banned. the experience here is that the life span is nowhere near as long as is being advertised, this is due to the fact that most are used upside down and the heat dries out the electrolytic capacitors in the electronics.
> It appears that our government hasn't yet decided how to dispose of these lamps which contain Mercury. Whatever you decide, DO NOT use Halogen unless you want headaches and/or eye problems.



You must be working on some top secret stuff Harry.lol Where are your windows? Looks like a metal building? DId you insulate the walls?

How wide is yourt shop? It is 20 feet long but how wide?


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## istracpsboss (Sep 14, 2008)

harrysin said:


> I shan't disappoint you Bob by not adding my experience. When I had this shed erected close to seven years ago, I had four 4' twin fluos, evenly spaced along the centre of the 20' roof. I had reflective insulation for the dual purpose of keeping the place cool and reflecting the light. It has been completely successful on both counts and the daylight tubes are the originals, every one of them also the starters. I just took these shots, no flash and it's a very dark night. I wonder if the premature failure mentioned by some could be due to the 110volts against our 240V.
> Regarding the so called compact fluo. globes, these are being pushed vigorously by our government and in fact incandescent globes will eventually be banned. the experience here is that the life span is nowhere near as long as is being advertised, this is due to the fact that most are used upside down and the heat dries out the electrolytic capacitors in the electronics.
> It appears that our government hasn't yet decided how to dispose of these lamps which contain Mercury. Whatever you decide, DO NOT use Halogen unless you want headaches and/or eye problems.


Hi Harry

Is _that_ why they don't last as long as claimed? I hadn't heard before and did wonder. As you can see, I've found Paint.net and I am very pleased with it !


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## TRN_Diesel (Feb 24, 2009)

Glenmore said:


> I'm using 4 foot t12 florescent bulbs and they are working fine so far. Next I'm going to get some white paint/ primer to white wash the ceiling of the basement did this when I made the shop at the church had to wear sun glass's after doing this.


Great idea on painting the walls and ceiling white. I did that in my shop and it has made a huge difference in lighting. As you get older you need more light and it is better to air on the side of caution when installing new lighting. 

You may want to consider using the new energy efficient T8 bulbs rather than the old T12's. Somebody could verify but I beleive T8's are at least 30% more efficient than T12's.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Harry

Thanks for the pictures ,off the point a bit But

You have had said you have a SHED many times for a shop but it didn't hit home until I saw the pictures of your work shop 

You can't buy any more tools Harry you don't have the room for anymore Mate..  I don't see how you do it now mate.

I don't see to many on wheels do you work out side a lot of the time but I know it's HOT in AU.. most of the time.. 

Now I'm really amazed you make so many neat items in your shed ..

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harrysin said:


> I shan't disappoint you Bob by not adding my experience. When I had this shed erected close to seven years ago, I had four 4' twin fluos, evenly spaced along the centre of the 20' roof. I had reflective insulation for the dual purpose of keeping the place cool and reflecting the light. It has been completely successful on both counts and the daylight tubes are the originals, every one of them also the starters. I just took these shots, no flash and it's a very dark night. I wonder if the premature failure mentioned by some could be due to the 110volts against our 240V.
> Regarding the so called compact fluo. globes, these are being pushed vigorously by our government and in fact incandescent globes will eventually be banned. the experience here is that the life span is nowhere near as long as is being advertised, this is due to the fact that most are used upside down and the heat dries out the electrolytic capacitors in the electronics.
> It appears that our government hasn't yet decided how to dispose of these lamps which contain Mercury. Whatever you decide, DO NOT use Halogen unless you want headaches and/or eye problems.


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

That's a very efficient use of light, Harry! Between the sloped reflecting roof and not having reflectors built into the light fixtures, you've made the whole roof one big reflector so it reflects from all angles and to all angles. Great design!

Also a very nicely equipped shop, of course. <g>


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## Old_Chipper (Mar 30, 2009)

I been replacing mine with the T8's, My fixtures are for 4- 48", But 3 of the T8's give more light than the 4 old ones, I been just replacing the ballast not the whole fixture.
Box of 10 for $100 on ebay. My old fixtures are over 20 years old, so it costs me a lot to use them. Time will tell if they will help $675 power bill.
For you young guys, plan ahead, what is plenty of light now will not be when you pass 65. Seems like my shop gets dimmer very day!!!


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## Glenmore (Sep 10, 2004)

TRN_Diesel said:


> Great idea on painting the walls and ceiling white. I did that in my shop and it has made a huge difference in lighting. As you get older you need more light and it is better to air on the side of caution when installing new lighting.
> 
> You may want to consider using the new energy efficient T8 bulbs rather than the old T12's. Somebody could verify but I beleive T8's are at least 30% more efficient than T12's.


Thanks Dan I'll keep that in mind when the ones I have blow. Any savings in the bills is appreciated :sold:


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

*All shed questions answered*

It is a fact that most Aussie men have sheds, most are metal but the fortunate few have brick ones. Sizes vary from just 10' x 10' to over 20' x 30', mine is 15' x 20'. Less fortunate woodworkers have to move the car out of the garage and set things up for each session.There is even a book all about Aussie men and their sheds. Bj wonders how I get anything done with so many tools inside and assumes that I have to work outside, which I don't, except for cutting up large panels, the answer is WHEELS, lots of wheels!
Where I mentioned see next shot, I forgot to include it so it's now the last one.

By the way, I make no apologies for the mess everywhere, like Derek in England, I'm in my shed most days and whilst I do sweep up when it's ankle deep, I only have major two day deep cleans when I'm shamed into it by the likes of moderator Bob Noles.


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## kp91 (Sep 10, 2004)

harrysin said:


> Less fortunate woodworkers have to move the car out of the garage and set things up for each session.


The cars only have to come inside for REALLY bad weather.... and it takes less than 1/2 hour to do it. 


As for lighting my garage, I have 4 ft F40T12 fixtures for the main lighting, and incandescent task lights. I also have a Halogen light tree that I can "bounce" off the ceiling if I am working near the garage doors at night.

The sad thing is that when the garage was built, it only had two 60 watt incandescent fixtures... talk about a cave! The garage is two bays wide and around 35 ft deep. I someday plan on painting the overhead and the cinderblock walls white


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

" I someday plan on painting the overhead and the cinderblock walls white"

White paint can make a huge difference to light and temperature. For the first few years that I was in business, I worked from a home workshop, free standing 30' x 12' with a corrugated asbestos roof and the small air conditioner struggled to cope, that was until I painted the outside of the roof white, it made a huge difference in the inside temperature. The inside walls and ceiling were insulated with pre-painted white Caneite which made for a very bright workshop.


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## TRN_Diesel (Feb 24, 2009)

Harry I noticed you do not have insulation on the walls. Doesn't the shed heat up from the solar heat without insulation? I did however see you have an A/C unit.


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## Dr.Zook (Sep 10, 2004)

*Thanks for the pics Harry.*

Harry, you have a "wheely" :jesterpun intended) equiped shed. However, I didn't see any wheels on the metal working lathe??????????????:sarcastic:


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

istracpsboss said:


> Hi Harry
> 
> Is _that_ why they don't last as long as claimed? I hadn't heard before and did wonder. As you can see, I've found Paint.net and I am very pleased with it !


You soon mastered that Peter.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

TRN_Diesel said:


> Harry I noticed you do not have insulation on the walls. Doesn't the shed heat up from the solar heat without insulation? I did however see you have an A/C unit.


Most of the upper parts of the walls have either chipboard and/or cupboards and the sun doesn't drop low enough to cause much heat. Up till about noon, even on the hottest day I can work without the aircon. going and once I put it on, the place is cool to cold within a few minutes because it's an overkill at 2.5 hp, but it's what we had removed from the house when we had a 5 hp ducted reverse cycle system installed. In summary, it's a pleasant place in which to spend a high percentage of my retirement.


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

With *your* shop, Harry, it'd be a mighty pleasant place even without the AC.. The AC would just elevate it to something higher than that.


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## TRN_Diesel (Feb 24, 2009)

Bob said:


> Don't know why it never dawned on me, but the old style screw fixtures with the new florescent bulbs sound like a great idea. I wonder if I can still get by with 6 fixtures or need to increase them. My shop is only 212 SF (12 1/2 X 17). Is there any kind of formula that applies to get proper light?


As promised I found the article I referenced for shop lighting. The article was in Fine Woodworking called Light Up Your Workspace written by Jack L Lindsey.

The formula given your size of shop is based on how many 2 lamp 8 foot flourescent fixtures you will need to light a workshop uniformly to 100 fc of light.

10 ft x 20 ft (5) 60 watt
(4) 75 watt
(3) 110 watt 

Place fixtures 3 1/2 feet from the walls and space them 5 feet apart. Which means run two bannks down the centre of the room length ways.

There are diagrams I can send you just PM me with an email address so you can get a better picture.

Hope that helps you.


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## Bob N (Oct 12, 2004)

Thanks Dan, I'll send you a PM for the diagrams. I ran up on Jack Lindsey at another forum and he sure knows his stuff.


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## Rutabagared (Jun 18, 2009)

TRN_Diesel said:


> As promised I found the article I referenced for shop lighting. The article was in Fine Woodworking called Light Up Your Workspace written by Jack L Lindsey.
> 
> The formula given your size of shop is based on how many 2 lamp 8 foot flourescent fixtures you will need to light a workshop uniformly to 100 fc of light.
> 
> ...


Thanks, Dan. I've always wanted a simple formula and this fits the bill nicely. Can you provide the issue # containing the article?

Joe


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## TRN_Diesel (Feb 24, 2009)

I beleive it is issue #154 page 56


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## BigJimAK (Mar 13, 2009)

Dan,

Does that article also give a "fudge factor" for those of us beyond the age of 40?

I remember reading an article long ago that gave a similar formula (I don't remember the numbers, I checked a few of my WW Shop books) but at the end it said that by the time we are ??45?? we need ??1.33x? as much as when we were younger and by the time we are ??65? we need another ?1,25x? the 45+ amount?

I wish I remember the details. All I know is I've always liked lots of light and, as I've gotten older I want / need even more. I hate to *think* what I'll want / need by the time I'm my fathers age (83).


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## Rutabagared (Jun 18, 2009)

TRN_Diesel said:


> I beleive it is issue #154 page 56


Thanks, Dan.


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## TRN_Diesel (Feb 24, 2009)

Jim I have found the light to be perfect and yes I belive it allows for you to age a bit but if you find the light is poor you can always add spot lights. 

I am very pleased with how mine turned out and now the aircraft coming in on final can use my shop as a reference point if their ILS is not functioning.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Dan

I have added some track lights for the dark spots in the shop ,the 50 watt lights add just the right light...at the right point.

The ones I have are about 6ft long and setup for 4 flood lights per.track.

=====


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## TRN_Diesel (Feb 24, 2009)

They make some nice track lighting now don't they? I bought some for my condo in Jasper and you can add lights to the track by simply sliding additional ones into it and clicking them in. The added feature of being able to direct the light as well is a nice feature.


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## Bill Thomas (Apr 17, 2009)

*Lumens And Also Outlets in The Ceiling*

The Westinghouse Lighting Handbook (printed 1976 but still valid) recommends for rough woodwooking 30 Footcandles and for fine (e.g. sanding and finishing) 100. These numbers also appear in the FWW No. 154 page 56 article. To make the math simple, assume uniform lighting from above. I.e. ignore reflections from walls, assume the intensity patterns under the fixtures overlap perfeclty, and perfect reflectors on the fixtures. Using a spacing one 4 foot fixture per 40 square feet, each pair of bulbs should provide 4000 lumens or 2000 per bulb. 

Personal experience caused me to add an extra fixture above the workbench and also the lathe. Spot lights at the drill press, bandsaw, and lathe eliminate shadows from either the machines to the work piece.

Outlets in the ceiling and using plugin 4 foot fixtures, makes adding and moving lights much easier than using fixtures directly wired in junction boxes. Also, the county building inspector does have to re-inspect everytime a you add or move a fixture.


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## Bob N (Oct 12, 2004)

Hi Bill,

Welcome to the community and much thanks for the great info in your post. Hope to hear from you more.


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## TRN_Diesel (Feb 24, 2009)

Bill Thomas said:


> The Westinghouse Lighting Handbook (printed 1976 but still valid) recommends for rough woodwooking 30 Footcandles and for fine (e.g. sanding and finishing) 100. These numbers also appear in the FWW No. 154 page 56 article. To make the math simple, assume uniform lighting from above. I.e. ignore reflections from walls, assume the intensity patterns under the fixtures overlap perfeclty, and perfect reflectors on the fixtures. Using a spacing one 4 foot fixture per 40 square feet, each pair of bulbs should provide 4000 lumens or 2000 per bulb.
> 
> Personal experience caused me to add an extra fixture above the workbench and also the lathe. Spot lights at the drill press, bandsaw, and lathe eliminate shadows from either the machines to the work piece.
> 
> Outlets in the ceiling and using plugin 4 foot fixtures, makes adding and moving lights much easier than using fixtures directly wired in junction boxes. Also, the county building inspector does have to re-inspect everytime a you add or move a fixture.


Is there an echo in here? LOL if you read back I posted the same information on the thread but it is always good to have someone else back you up.

I can honestly say I do not need any task lighting in the shop with the lighting I installed. The added benefit of recessing the lights between the rafters has saved me numerous times from hitting a fluorescent tube.


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