# Looking For Some Advice



## chuckgray (Aug 2, 2015)

I'm making a base for a small box and I'm having problems with the miter joints. I cut them on my table saw using an Incra V27 miter set to the 22.5 deg notch. I normally don't have trouble cutting 90 deg or 45 deg miters because I have tools to help me set the angles precisely. However, I don't have anything for setting up a 22.5 deg angle. I used a stop block when making the cuts and I verified afterwards that all like pieces are the same length.

For reference purposes, the cherry frame is roughly 4.5" x 8" and the frame pieces themselves are 1" wide. The stock is 0.5" thick.

My question is how would you recommend that these cuts be made? Would you use a table saw or a miter saw?
Do you sometimes get the same imprecise results and then fine tune the angles with a plane or sanding block? Thanks in advance for your help.


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

I think you need one of those framing gizmos that Tom uses. He swears by it.


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## chuckgray (Aug 2, 2015)

John, I'm not sure what you're referring to. Do you have any specifics about the framing gizmo?


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

Tom should be by shortly -- he's the expert on it. He makes some mighty fine accurate and tight joints.


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## jj777746 (Jan 17, 2015)

chuckgray said:


> I'm making a base for a small box and I'm having problems with the miter joints. I cut them on my table saw using an Incra V27 miter set to the 22.5 deg notch. I normally don't have trouble cutting 90 deg or 45 deg miters because I have tools to help me set the angles precisely. However, I don't have anything for setting up a 22.5 deg angle. I used a stop block when making the cuts and I verified afterwards that all like pieces are the same length.
> 
> For reference purposes, the cherry frame is roughly 4.5" x 8" and the frame pieces themselves are 1" wide. The stock is 0.5" thick.
> 
> ...


 @chuckgray,I'm, fairly sure "Infinity Cutting Tools" have a 22.5 degree bit if that could help,or maybe not.Just sayin'


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

chuckgray said:


> John, I'm not sure what you're referring to. Do you have any specifics about the framing gizmo?


look for the lion miter trimmer/knife threads...
http://www.routerforums.com/tools-woodworking/90322-lion-mitre-knife-goes-under-knife.html
http://www.routerforums.com/tools-woodworking/85705-miter-trimmer.html
http://www.routerforums.com/show-n-tell/89185-finished-my-lazy-susan.html
http://www.routerforums.com/starting-off/39662-accuracy-general-hints-tips.html

if I was a betting man man ...
your blade has wobble - needs stiffeners or the arbor is sloppy.. 
and it isn't absolute 90° to the table..


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## kp91 (Sep 10, 2004)

I like the table saw over the miter saw for precision cuts. No flex in the head like a chop saw or slider. You should use a zero clearance insert, make sure your blade is square to the table, etc.

Frank howarth on YouTube has some videos on how he does the miters on his segmentation pieces, might be worth a look.

A shooting board and plane can help clean up joints some, but if they are too far out of whack your pieces willl get too short.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Hi, 
I use what used to be called a Lion miter trimmer. The picture shows how it looks, how it works is that the lever moves a set of extremely sharp cutters back and forth. You pre-cut the frame pieces to about 45 degrees and about 1/16th or so over size. The steel base has a stop for a small arm or mini fence. You slide your workpiece against the fence, then push maybe 1/32nd past the blade, then slide the blade across, trimming off a very tiny amount. This produces an exact 90 or 45 degree angle that is glass smooth. Theoretically you can cut other angles this way, but it is specific to picture frames, or making exact 90 rails and stiles. Mine is a Grizzly and has a couple of arms with a stop block to make sure lengths are exactly the same. This tool was originally made in the 1880s. My wife bought it for me to make frames for her paintings.

What you're makeing is going to require using something like a 22.5 degree router miter bit. You could also do this on a perfectly set up miter gauge, or my other alternative, which is a perfectly tuned Rockler table saw sled, which has a huge scale showing the exact angle in at least hundredths of a degree. But I had a lot of problems using thin kerf blades because the blad deflected just enough so I couldn't get a straight cut and ends wouldn't match up. Using a full kerf blade helped a lot. 

Another method is to use the Wixey angle gauge to tilt a table saw blade to an exact angle, with a full kerf blade. See picture. I'd want to use a perfectly set miter gauge to hold those small parts, and a good sacrificial fence.

I would not use a miter saw or chop saw, just not accurate enough to suit me, even my Bosch saw isn't accurate enough for this precision work.

But for your project, the router bit approach would work well. Finally, even with all of that, sometimes a little cover up is required, and for that, Timber Mate filler has worked best for me. Takes stain and finish well and stays put even in the tiny amounts I actually use.


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## chuckgray (Aug 2, 2015)

Thanks everyone for your thoughts.

The Lion Miter Trimmer looks like a fine tool but I can't justify the price for as seldom as I would use it. I like the idea of the 22.5 deg chamfer bit but I'm not sure how to safely use the router with the small pieces.

Stick, you've always got a myriad of good ideas and I appreciate that. I checked the blade angle with my Wixey and it shows to be right on 90 degrees. There doesn't seem to be any play between the blade and arbor. Is there a way I can check for wobble? I'm using a Freud Industrial Glue-line blade, 1/8" kerf.


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## chuckgray (Aug 2, 2015)

DesertRatTom said:


> Hi,
> I use what used to be called a Lion miter trimmer. The picture shows how it looks, how it works is that the lever moves a set of extremely sharp cutters back and forth. You pre-cut the frame pieces to about 45 degrees and about 1/16th or so over size. The steel base has a stop for a small arm or mini fence. You slide your workpiece against the fence, then push maybe 1/32nd past the blade, then slide the blade across, trimming off a very tiny amount. This produces an exact 90 or 45 degree angle that is glass smooth. Theoretically you can cut other angles this way, but it is specific to picture frames, or making exact 90 rails and stiles. Mine is a Grizzly and has a couple of arms with a stop block to make sure lengths are exactly the same. This tool was originally made in the 1880s. My wife bought it for me to make frames for her paintings.
> 
> What you're makeing is going to require using something like a 22.5 degree router miter bit. You could also do this on a perfectly set up miter gauge, or my other alternative, which is a perfectly tuned Rockler table saw sled, which has a huge scale showing the exact angle in at least hundredths of a degree. But I had a lot of problems using thin kerf blades because the blad deflected just enough so I couldn't get a straight cut and ends wouldn't match up. Using a full kerf blade helped a lot.
> ...


Great ideas Tom. I think I'll give a try to tilting the blade on my table saw and see how that works. By using the Wixey, I believe I can set the blade angle on the saw more accurately than setting the angle on the miter gauge. If that fails, I'll go with the Timber Mate filler.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

chuckgray said:


> Great ideas Tom. I think I'll give a try to tilting the blade on my table saw and see how that works. By using the Wixey, I believe I can set the blade angle on the saw more accurately than setting the angle on the miter gauge. If that fails, I'll go with the Timber Mate filler.


The big deal is cutting every piece on any particular segment to exactly the same length as its opposite pair. If one is even slightly off, getting the angle perfect doesn't matter much. Stop blocks for longer pieces. For short ones, put a block on the fence to set the piece against. A sacrificial fence will help with tearout. I'd use a really good draftsmans triangle to set the miter gauge exactly 90 to the blade so you don't get an unusable compound angle. I also had to perfect the fit of the miter bar so there is zero slop in the fit as you slide it. You're already using a full kerf blade. 

Let the Timber mate dry completely, then sand smooth. You can get the filler in a variety of colors to match the wood you're using. While I'm thinking on this, I have begun using the new 3M flexible sanding sheets. The stuff lasts forever, and wrap around the sanding blocks shown in the picture. These make sanding a frame much easier and faster, particularly the beaded parts.


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## MEBCWD (Jan 14, 2012)

Chuck there is one more thing you need to look at and that is stock preparation. The stock needs to be square and straight. If the stock is not straight then you will never get the joints to closeup correctly because there is already error in you angles to start. The Lion trimmer is a good tool but if the stock is not straight then you still have the problem of registration to the blade.

Looking at the picture of your joints my first thought is that your blade might not be parallel to the miter slot and/or your blade is not square to the table. I would also make sure that there is no slop in the miter gauge bar in the slot. If the alignment of the saw and miter gauge is correct then I would look a possible blade deflection or vibration. Also make sure you don't overfeed the stock, this could cause problems also.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

All the 45° mitres on my many boxes were made on the router table. 22.5° router bits are readily available. It goes without saying that the opposite pieces in your case must be identical in length.

https://www.ebay.com.au/sch/i.html?...outer+bit.TRS0&_nkw=22.5°+router+bit&_sacat=0


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Mike, great information. Stock preparation is really important, and don't wait too long between jointing and planing and assembly. It doesn't take long for a twist to appear, and even a small twist or warping will thwart you.

And setting up your table saw is too easily assumed and very often overlooked. Thanks for the reminder.


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## Cherryville Chuck (Sep 28, 2010)

Chuck the angles didn't look that bad except they aren't tight which makes me think that Stick's suggestion that you may have blade wobble may be correct. I had the same problem once and a set of stiffeners cured it. Some blades, especially thin rim blades, get pulled and pushed as they go through early grain and late grain (I.e. The wood density keeps changing which causes the blade to wander or wobble.) also, check your setup to make sure it's accurate as others have said.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

chuckgray said:


> Thanks everyone for your thoughts.
> 
> 1.... The Lion Miter Trimmer looks like a fine tool but I can't justify the price for as seldom as I would use it.
> 2.... I like the idea of the 22.5 deg chamfer bit but I'm not sure how to safely use the router with the small pieces.
> ...


1... once you get your hands on one.. there's no going back... LeeValley has one that is almost as good as the Lion and better than the Grizz.. you'll find you'll you'll use it for much more than..
2... small parts holders and/or a sled..
3... zero the wixey on the table and not the plate away from the blade in several locations then check your blade w/o changing any settings....
same for the throat plate..
also check the face of the miter gauge for 90° to the table...
you're looking for table and throat plate flatness...
4... Table Saw Test 2: Checking Arbor Flange and Saw Blade Run-Out | In-Line Industries
and of course there is YouTube...
make sure your arbor washers are clean and flat...
5... good blade.. add stiffeners just the same..
swap for a full kerf blade and test on some scrap...


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

Maybe it is just the picture, but it looks like the small pieces on the left hand side are longer than the right hand ones.
A router bit is not going to help you with what your are doing. I use my table saw ,like you do. I can truthfully say that even with careful attentions to everything, not every cut comes out right every time, so I make a substantial amount of extra stock to recut as needed. Also keep in mind that you are adding errors on top of errors such that when you get to the last cut it is not uncommon to have to do a little hand tweeking with a sanding block.

On 45 deg corner cuts you have only 4 miter cuts,here you have 8 cuts. You have doubled your margin of error.

I agree with Tom and his method with the Lyon trimmer, but he has the ability to shave off a micro bit to tighten things up, the same as a plane or sanding block.

Remember that a Machinist makes things that fit every time, and wood worker MAKES things fit.

Herb


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

a better way to go and it's invaluable...

Veritas® Poly-Gauge - Lee Valley Tools


.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

your miter gauge is sloppy in the the miter slot...
if you are using the take up washers it is sloppy... remove them...
layer the side of the bar w/ UHMW tape till you get a snug fit.. problem fixed forever...

Self Adhesive Tape UHMW 3/4"X6' | Klingspor's Woodworking Shop

adding a layer of 3'' wide to your fence is a giant step forward..
adding a layer of 100 grit PSA sandpaper to the face of your miter is a plus too..
no PSA paper...
use contact cement ot a dry rub on glue stick...

.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Herb Stoops said:


> Maybe it is just the picture, but it looks like the small pieces on the left hand side are longer than the right hand ones.
> 
> Herb


pay heed here...
off by a 32nd adds up big time... even a 64th will do it...


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## Herb Stoops (Aug 28, 2012)

Another idea that I use quite often is to make a small miter box that fits the width of your material and use a Japanese pullsaw to make the cuts, you will be surprised at how accurate you can cut miters.
Hebr


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## chuckgray (Aug 2, 2015)

Wow, a lot of good advice. It'll take a bit to get through it all. I performed a thorough setup of the table saw before I put it into service but it's been awhile so I'll begin by going through that process again. 

Stick, I also ordered the Veritas® Poly-Gauge from Lee Valley Tools. That should help me set up my 22.5 degree angles more precisely. Thanks for the link. I'll also be checking out my miter gauge as you suggested.

Harry, I would really like to use a chamfer bit but I'm still a bit concerned using it on the small 1" corner pieces. Even trying to hold those small irregular shaped pieces in a small-parts holder seems unsafe.

Herb, you said, "Remember that a Machinist makes things that fit every time, and wood worker MAKES things fit." That's so true. I had the opportunity to work in the Astronomy Department's machine shop while attending college and I was always so impressed with how precise I could make things even as a rank amateur. Exactness is more challenging with wood.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

more points...
always work w/ the same side up and same edge to the miter gauge.. avoid flipping the piece over...
a shooting board may be your answer over a miter trimmer...

.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

ding...
I can see this now...
you cut the leg of the frame at 22.5...
roll the piece over and cut again.......................................
so..........
any amount you are off in any plane or direction on the st cut is doubled on the 2nd cut...
it all adds up very quickly...
keep doing your cuts this way and you are just compounding problems...


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## chuckgray (Aug 2, 2015)

Your're right Stick, that's how I made the cuts. When my Veritas gauge arrives, I'll make a shooting board. That appears to be a solution that provides a lot of control over the cutting process.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

if the two edges are not parallel or the piece isn't perfectly straight getting where you want to be is very difficult...
consider a second miter gauge... one for each side of the blade and you won't be rolling/flipping the piece over but the two edges in parallel and straight is an absolute must...


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

yur shooting board...
do not use MDF... over time thinks and hardware holding power will fail...
use a LA plane w/ it because of the end grain...
make sure there is no sawdust build up against the fence...
trim one end of every piece...
set a stop block to control length to maintain lengths...
use your clamp to hold the piece... more fool proof..
I like this style...


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## chuckgray (Aug 2, 2015)

Stick486 said:


> yur shooting board...
> do not use MDF... over time thinks and hardware holding power will fail...
> use a LA plane w/ it because of the end grain...
> make sure there is no sawdust build up against the fence...
> ...


Thanks again Stick. I didn't know what an LA plane was and my first google attempt tried put me on a plane to Los Angeles. Then I tried LA Wood Plane and found out it stands for low angle. I'm almost afraid to ask you for a reasonably priced recommendation because you seem to deal in only the highest quality stuff. But I'll give it a try. Can you recommend a reasonably priced LA plane such as the least expensive one that you would still recommend?


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

chuckgray said:


> Thanks again Stick. I didn't know what an LA plane was and my first google attempt tried put me on a plane to Los Angeles. Then I tried LA Wood Plane and found out it stands for low angle. I'm almost afraid to ask you for a reasonably priced recommendation *because you seem to deal in only the highest quality stuff. *But I'll give it a try. Can you recommend a reasonably priced LA plane such as the least expensive one that you would still recommend?



not so.. best value and what will be in service decades from now 8is what I prefer......
I never think w/ my wallet but I don't loose sight of it either....
but I do like my Veritas...
there's lots of choices... nothing wrong w/ a Stanley, Record or a Woodriver V3 (version #3)... V1 and 2 leave a lot to be desired...
stay away from Asian and Mexican manufacture.. Leave the sweethearts by Stanley alone too...
up grade the iron... 
Blades - Lee Valley Tools
a jack or smoother will work nicely for a shooting board.. I think a block plane is a tad short in the nose for this job...

make sure the sole is flat...
make sure the sole is square to the sides..
make sure the adjustment work solidly w/o slop..
put the plane up against something solid and push hard... if the plane has points that dig into yur hand.. pass on it...

and before I forget...
get yourself a set of 30/60/45 drafting squares... small and large...


.


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

Wood River V3. I have several and they are very good with only minor tuning on the three I have so far. I like Veritas, of course or Lie Nielson, but they are above my pay grade, (I do have a veritas router plane that is sweet!) The iron (blade) must be flattened carefully 

I am something of a precision nut, but so far I have not yet successfully produced a shooting board that met my standard. Paul Sellers shows how to do it with hand tools on YouTube (It pops right up on search). But you're also going to have to figure out how to work with odd angles 22.5 for example, on short pieces.

I do like the idea of having two miter gauges, one for each side of the blade, but you're going to have to be very careful on setting angles relative to the blade. But that will set you back more than the miter trimmer. 

So I'm back to the router and a jig to carry the short pieces so you can keep your hands and fingers. Precision is the dilemma on miter joints, expecially with6 or 8 joints, not just four.

Which helps explain why custom picture frames are hudreds of dollars.

My 25 cents. - D.R. Tom


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## 197761 (May 2, 2017)

Wow, there's a lot of good information in this post!


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## chuckgray (Aug 2, 2015)

DerSchuhmacher said:


> Wow, there's a lot of good information in this post!


Sie haben richtig DerSchuhmacher! There's a cadre of active members on this forum that are very generous in sharing their knowledge and it's much appreciated by those such as me who are trying to learn.


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## honesttjohn (Feb 17, 2015)

DesertRatTom said:


> Wood River V3.
> 
> My 25 cents. - D.R. Tom


New name for Desert Rat Tom - which is too unbecoming for him.

How bout we start using .......... Dr Tom


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## DesertRatTom (Jul 3, 2012)

honesttjohn said:


> New name for Desert Rat Tom - which is too unbecoming for him.
> 
> How bout we start using .......... Dr Tom


DesertRat actually describes my usual appearance around home and workshop, although I clean up pretty well for work and my senior group, and if I'm taking my sweetie out. And it helps keep me humble, which is very much necessary, according to my sweetie.

I really love this Forum. Good guys and gals, lots of skill and generous sharing. And you all seem willing to put up with me.


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## MEBCWD (Jan 14, 2012)

DesertRatTom said:


> DesertRat actually describes my usual appearance around home and workshop.


That's the way I see it, you need to be comfortable in the shop and relaxing around the house. I usually put on nice clothes to go anywhere except the lumber yard , home center or somewhere like that and sometimes even for them.


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