# Outdoor finish in Florida



## Barry747 (Jun 16, 2011)

I have a question about finishing that I’m hoping someone can help me with. I live in Florida and I’m going to make a small live edge bench that will live outside by our front door. The area does not get much sun and is somewhat sheltered from the rain but, this is Florida. The wood that I purchased, according to the guy who sold it to me, is called Samae. I never heard of it, and can’t find much about it on the Internet so I may have gotten the name wrong but, anyway, it is a tropical/subtropical hardwood. The salesman, who was very knowledgeable suggested that I finish the bench with either Tung Oil or Teak Oil. He said he uses whatever is cheapest and cuts it with Mineral Spirits for faster drying especially in our humid climate. He re-oils when the piece appears to be drying out.

I normally use poly on my indoor projects and the only oil finish I’ve ever used is Watco Danish Oil. I’ve done some research on the Internet and I’m a bit confused about what I should use. About the only things I’ve learned is that Teak Oil has UV protection, so that’s a plus, and that Teak Oil and Teak Oil Finish are different. One last thing, I’d prefer a satin finish. If that can’t be done with oils (I really don’t know) I could live with semi-gloss, not gloss.

Can anyone suggest the best finish to use for this outdoor bench? 

As always, I appreciate your help.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

I believe this is what you have...

Monkeypod (Samanea saman)

Common Name(s): Monkeypod, Monkey Pod, Raintree
Scientific Name: Albizia saman (syn. Samanea saman, Pithecellobium saman)
Distribution: Central and South America (Also planted/naturalized in many tropical regions of the world)
Tree Size: 100-125 ft (30-38 m) tall, 3-4 ft (1-1.2 m) trunk diameter
Average Dried Weight: 38 lbs/ft3 (600 kg/m3)
Specific Gravity (Basic, 12% MC): .48, .60
Janka Hardness: 900 lbf (4,010 N)
Modulus of Rupture: 9,530 lbf/in2 (65.7 MPa)
Elastic Modulus: 1,149,000 lbf/in2 (7.92 GPa)
Crushing Strength: 5,790 lbf/in2 (39.9 MPa)
Shrinkage: Radial: 2.0%, Tangential: 3.4%, Volumetric: 6.0%, T/R Ratio: 1.7

Color/Appearance: Color tends to be a golden to dark brown, sometimes with darker streaks. Sapwood is usually thin and yellow/white, clearly demarcated from the heartwood. Monkeypod is sometimes seen with highly figured curly or wild grain patterns.
Grain/Texture: Grain is usually straight, but can also be interlocked or wavy. Texture is medium to coarse, with medium to large open pores and a moderate natural luster.
Endgrain: Diffuse-porous; large to very large pores in no specific arrangement, very few to few; solitary and radial multiples of 2-3; heartwood deposits occasionally present; narrow rays usually not visible without lens, normal spacing; parenchyma vasicentric, lozenge, and confluent.
Rot Resistance: Rated as durable to very durable regarding decay resistance, Monkeypod is also resistant to most insect attacks.
Workability: Monkeypod is generally easy to work with both hand and machine tools, though any interlocked grain may result in fuzzy or torn grain during planing operations. Glues and finishes well.
Odor: No characteristic odor.
Allergies/Toxicity: Although severe reactions are quite uncommon, Monkeypod wood dust has been reported as an eye irritant. See the articles Wood Allergies and Toxicity and Wood Dust Safety for more information.
Pricing/Availability: Available as lumber, as well as craft wood in smaller sizes. Prices are in the mid to high range for imported wood. Monkeypod usually trends a little bit cheaper in price than Koa, all other things being equal. Boards with figured grain patterns are much more expensive.
Sustainability: This wood species is not listed in the CITES Appendices or on the IUCN Red List of Threatened Species.
Common Uses: Veneer, plywood, millwork/trim, carving, cabinetry, furniture, musical instruments (guitars and ukuleles), and other small specialty wood items.
Comments: So named for the spiral-shaped fruit pods which the tree bears. Outside of Hawaii, one of the most common names for the species is Raintree, which is due to the leaves’ tendency to fold up at night or during periods of rainfall, allowing rain to pass through its broad canopy to the vegetation below. Trees are commonly planted in tropical regions as an ornamental shrub or shade tree. 
Monkeypod is called by many different names in many different cultures, and its lumber is likewise used for a number of different purposes depending on the locale, ranging from utility wood and construction purposes to fine furniture.
Related Species: None available.


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## Barry747 (Jun 16, 2011)

Stick, I think you nailed it (pun intended). The sapwood is a dull white with streaks of black that give it a slightly grayish look. Very similar to pictures that I pulled up on the web. Thanks. The salesman said the sapwood would lighten up once it was sanded. Any suggestions on how to finish it?

I've decided to make the bench like a waterfall table that I've seen since the grain and live edge will look nice flowing around the edges. Since the sides will be attached at 45 degrees I'll reinforce the joint with either biscuits or a hidden spline. Because it will sit outside, I'll put something on the bottom of the sides so they won't sit in water after a storm. For hurricanes we'll take the bench inside. 

Now my challenge will be how to make the 45 degree cuts across the board. I don't have a miter saw, although I've been thinking of getting one. Because of the curve and the width of the board it might be too wide for a miter saw. The board is being delivered later this week, unfortunately I don't have a truck, so once it arrives and I lay out where the cuts will go I'll see if a miter saw could make the cuts. If so, I'll spring for one. If not, it's plan "B" which would be to make a 90 degree cut with a circular saw then make the 45's on the table saw. I'll probably loose a bit of the grain continuity but it should be close enough for an outside piece.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

finishing ... I don't go there... 
just the same I'd oil it so that it would be easily repairable... look to Sikkens...
https://www.perfectwoodstains.com/products/deck-stain
45° cut... clamped on anything straight edge and a circular saw w/ a cross cut blade for cross grain and a rip blade, well for rips...
test cut your angle setting on thick scrap..
I'm partial to Freud blades...


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## DonkeyHody (Jan 22, 2015)

Teak oil doesn't come from a teak tree, and may be a blend of several oils and varnishes. There seems to be no regulation about what has to be in teak oil. 

What you want to buy is 100% pure tung oil, which is about $30 per quart. A quart goes a long way. Thin it at least 1 to 1 with mineral spirits for the first 2 or 3 coats and allow 24 hours or more between coats to avoid a gummy mess. The last coat can be uncut, but wipe off everything that hasn't soaked into the wood after 30 minutes. 

Any product that has the word "finish" in the name is also highly suspect. It's almost certainly a film-forming varnish and may or may not have any real tung oil in it at all. The problem with film forming varnishes outdoors is the failure mode. They tend to fail by peeling and flaking, requiring sanding and refinishing. The beauty of a 100% tung oil finish indoors or out is that you can renew the finish at any time by simply reapplying before the wood begins to gray from the sun.


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## Barry747 (Jun 16, 2011)

Stick, I have a 60 tooth Diablo blade in my circular saw. The main cuts are crosscuts. Since I'm still waiting for the board to be delivered, I'm not sure of the thickness. I think it's about 3". If so, my circular saw won't be able to cut it since I can only get about 2" on a 45 degree cut. 

Andy, thanks for the info on Tung oil. What originally attracted me to Teak Oil was the UV protection. Do you know if there's such a thing as a UV additive for Tung oil? If not, I can go with re-oiling as needed. I really appreciate the advice.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

double cut...
cut one face.. flip it over and make the finish through cut..


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## Archi (Jan 6, 2015)

I use to use Watco but it water spots. About 38 years ago I found Velvit Oil. I discovered it is used for sealing log cabins up here in Wisconsin. So... I have never had a reason to try tung oil. It seems to work on all the woods I've tried(pine to ebony) with softer woods needing more than one coat. All I have talked to who have used Velvit oil ...love it. It is made in Neenah,Wi. I'm just a very satisfied customer.


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## Barry747 (Jun 16, 2011)

Stick, yes, that will be the challenge. I'll know more once i receive the board. The wanted to deliver it Friday but i have a Dr appt during the delivery time so it'll be sometime next week. 

Tim, I never heard of Velvit Oil but i'll do some research on it to see how it compares to Tung oil. Thanks for the recommendation.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Barry747 said:


> Stick, yes, that will be the challenge.


naw...
it's either mathematical or mechanical lay out..
which ever yur comfortable w/... 
draw it out on paper 1st...


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## Barry747 (Jun 16, 2011)

Stick - I'll do that. The board will be delivered Monday, just before I leave for a visit with the grandkids. It'll be a couple of weeks but I'll let you know how it turns out. thanks for your help.


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## coxhaus (Jul 18, 2011)

I tried Teak oil with UV protection on some smoker handles I made. It did not stand up well to Texas sun. It was better than Tung oil but not as good as spar marine varnish.

I would say 2 years for Teak oil with UV. Spar varnish you can get 3 to 4 years.


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## Barry747 (Jun 16, 2011)

Lee, Actually, spar varnish was my original choice, but, when I spoke to the guy who sold me the board, he said he used either Teak Oil or Tung Oil, whichever he can find cheaper. From my perspective, after the work I put into a project, a couple of extra buck for a better finish makes sense to me so the cheaper argument didn't work for me. That prompted me to do some research to see if Teak or Tung was the better choice. Going on line didn't help much, that's why I posted the question on the forum. 

My hesitation at this point is how often I'm going to have to refinish the bench. Every few years is expected. Every six months won't work for me. Depending on were you live in Texas, your climate and mine could be very similar. I'm on the west coast of Florida about 9 miles straight line distance inland from the Gulf so besides sun we get a lot of high humidity. I'm actually less concerned about the sun since the piece will sit outside of my front door and that's a northern exposure so most of the sun light will be reflected light. Still has UV rays in it. I'm more concerned about the humidity and reducing he possibility of the mold growing on the wood.

I guess that, due to some travel, it'll anywhere from 3 to 4 weeks before I have to decide on the finish. At least now I have something to keep me up at night.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

I lived in Tampa...
14 years...
now high altitude Colorado...
any film finish didn't/doesn't fare well in either location..
oil...
sleep well..


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## Barry747 (Jun 16, 2011)

Stick, Ok, you convinced me. With your experience living in Tampa I'll go with oil. Thanks.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

just make sure you use the real deal and not something that just says it is...
did you know there is no such thing ''Teak'' oil...
Teak oil is for teak, not of teak.... Teak oil, generally, is not much more than a marketing gimmick for amateurs.....
now..................
do we want BLO or Tung oil???
https://www.popularwoodworking.com/techniques/finishing/oil-finishes-their-history-and-use
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tung_oil


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## Barry747 (Jun 16, 2011)

AAAAAAaaahhhhh!!!! Ok, I'm calm now. I do know that Teak Oil is formulated for Teak, not from Teak. I was leaning towards Tung and had begun to shop around for it online before you introduce BLO in the mix, so to speak. However, after reading the two articles you listed I'm going with Tung Oil. I'll dilute pure Tung Oil 1:1 with Mineral Spirits for the first few coats until the wood stops absorbing it then go to straight oil for the last coat or 3. I will do my best to be sure each coat is dry before applying successive coats. I've read some horror stories of people who were in a hurry and ended up with a gummy mess that wouldn't dry. Should be an interesting experience. Since this was a very expensive board, I'll practice on a cutoff first. Time is not an issue so whether this takes a week or a month doesn't matter to me.

Quick update. The board arrived and measures 2 1/2 inches thick, 94" long and varies from 8" in the center to 13" at the ends. It's a reclaimed board, there are some screw holes in the bottom of it, so it's already flat with a uniform thickness. All I have to do, besides making the cuts for the end panels, is to sand off the old finish. After sanding I'll see if it absorbs the oil on a test piece which should help me determine if the existing finish is a film or oil. Either way, once I'm down to bare wood I'll go with the Tung oil.

If you think I said anything stupid in this post please let me know. Otherwise, once again, thanks for you advice.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

sanding happens *AFTER* you ''wash'' the old finish out of your slab....

Recipe for Fornby's or Hope's furniture stripper: 
Equal parts of acetone, methanol (wood alcohol), methylene chloride and tolulene 
soak or paint it on... little goes a long way... wrap/cover the object in a cotton towel and soak the towel... use a white one...
remove the towel and scrape the sludge of w. a plastic putty knife...
don't bother asking what happens if you use a synthetic fabric towel or one that has been dyed...

Always (paint/finish/oil formula/MSDS unknown) consider the probability of the paint being a lead and/or copper base being pretty good... it may fizz/boil/pop/what not a bit.... kinda like mixing Rice Krispies and Alka-Selzer together...

I trust you will be doing this out doors, in a breeze, while holding your breath and using chemical gloves ... 
just never forget you are dealing with unknown paint/finish/oil.. small segment to start 1st..


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

What kind of finish is on there already, Barry? Varnish, or something else?
You might want to try using a heat gun and scraper first. If it's something like varnish, you're going to gum up a lot of sandpaper (or belts).

*Ahhh...Stick beat me to actually posting. If you're going the chemical route try plain old lacquer thinner, and a scraper...and a vapour mask.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

Barry747 said:


> AAAAAAaaahhhhh!!!! Ok, I'm calm now.
> I'll dilute pure Tung Oil 1:1 with Mineral Spirits


keep reading...

.


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## old coasty (Aug 15, 2014)

Sikkens Cetol worked great on a boat in a salt water atmosphere in Maryland as well as total East Coast cruising, on the teak. Every two or 3 years, a light sanding and add another coat. Easily repairable without stripping down to bare wood and starting over like the varnish guys did.


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## Stick486 (Jan 4, 2013)

old coasty said:


> Sikkens Cetol worked great on a boat in a salt water atmosphere in Maryland as well as total East Coast cruising, on the teak. Every two or 3 years, a light sanding and add another coat. Easily repairable without stripping down to bare wood and starting over like the varnish guys did.


agreed...


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## CharlesWebster (Nov 24, 2015)

Stick486 said:


> keep reading...
> 
> .


Thanks Stick for that info. Very interesting and educational.


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## Barry747 (Jun 16, 2011)

I've attached some new pictures so you can see what I'll be working with. The pic of the edge is closer to the true color of the board than the other two.

What I didn't write last time was that I was going to try the three solvents that I have in my shop, mineral spirits, alcohol and acetone to see if any of those do anything. If not, then I was going to sand to see if I could get to bare wood. If so, it's some kind of film finish but my guess is, it isn't. I don't have a heat gun so I hadn't even thought of that. As a last resort I'll buy some furniture stripper like the ones Stick suggested. 

I don't have time to try any of this today since I'm headed out of town early tomorrow (Thursday) AM, to visit some grandkids in Boston, and won't be back until next week. I'll work on it then and let you know what happens. If none of that works, I'll be looking for the next approach. 

Thanks for your help. This is a totally new learning experience for me. For the last 12 years that I've been woodworking as a hobby I've always worked with raw lumber, starting with the big box junk and graduating to a real lumber yard where I can buy lumber and mill it myself. I get a kick out of face planing a board and seeing the grain and figure appear. I was planning on buying a rough cut slab for the bench but when my wife and I went to a warehouse full of second hand furniture and reclaimed lumber we fell in love with this board. I so don't want to screw this one up,.


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Lovely grain pattern and colour!


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## coxhaus (Jul 18, 2011)

I went and looked at my cans again just to be sure. I have Minmax Tung oil and Minmax Teak oil with UV. I bought them at Walmart and they both finish as a varnish more so than a BLO finish. I don't think either is great out in the central Texas sun. I have not used BLO outside so no comment. I have used spar varnish on a sailboat I owned 20 years ago which did better in the sun. But by the time spar varnish was bad you had to strip it all off before you stated again. There may be better finishes out there which you can touch up since my experience is 20 years ago. I also don't know what real Tung oil is like. It could be more oil like but you might want to check. 


I have used BLO and bee's wax on my workbenches and I have been quite happy with the finish. But they are not outside.

I used wipe on poly on my kitchen cabinets when I redid them a couple of months ago. It will be interesting to see how the sun through the windows affects the poly. It is Minmax oil poly without UV protection.


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## Barry747 (Jun 16, 2011)

I got back from visiting the grandkids in Boston late Monday. Today I had a root canal. While in the chair I was wondering, what's worse, the root canal, or the travel part of the trip. I haven't figured that out yet.

I tried the three solvents that I have in my shop to see if any of them had an effect on the finish on the slab. The 3 shop cloth pictures show the result of acetone, alcohol and mineral spirits. Even though the acetone had the greatest effect, I really didn't detect any difference on the slab itself. I wonder if the acetone just picked up dirt and cleaned the surface. 

I then tried 150 grit with my ROS and it did take some of the surface finish off. Being the novice finisher that I am, about all I can get out of these tests is that I can probably clean off any accumulated dirt with acetone and then give it a good sanding. I'd finish it with Tung oil, 50:50 with mineral spirits for several coats and then go straight Tung for a few coats, waiting a day between each coat to make sure it's dry. I don't know if I should sand between coats. I can feel for dust nibs and go lightly with 220 sand paper if necessary.

Based on what I've written and shown, is this the best approach?


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## DaninVan (Jan 1, 2012)

Mineral Spirits is a very gentle cleaner...unlikely to strip anything other than wax.
Try Lacquer Thinner and a scraper, or Lacquer Thinner and steel wool.
You're going to go through a lot of sandpaper.


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## coxhaus (Jul 18, 2011)

It has been a while so how did you finish stand up to being outdoors and what did you use?


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## Barry747 (Jun 16, 2011)

coxhaus said:


> It has been a while so how did you finish stand up to being outdoors and what did you use?


I ended up using pure tung oil. I didn't write down how many coats I used but I think it was 3. Your question encouraged me to take a closer look at it and the result is that it's due for some maintenance. There may be a bit of mold on the surface (after all, it lives outside in Florida) and it feels rough. The roughness may just be an accumulation of dirt. I'll clean it off and if it's still rough I'll sand it before recoating with the Tung Oil.

Thanks for the follow up. I'm going to add reminders to closely check the bench every 6 months from now on.


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