# holeless circle cutting



## pauli mac (Jul 18, 2010)

Hi all,
I want ot cut a 3-1/2" diameter disk out of 3/4"walnut without leaving a pivot point hole. Do you have any sugestions? I have a router table.

Pauli


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

pauli mac said:


> Hi all,
> I want ot cut a 3-1/2" diameter disk out of 3/4"walnut without leaving a pivot point hole. Do you have any sugestions? I have a router table.
> 
> Pauli


This is the way that I generally accomplish this task. To calculate the size of hole in the template: template guide dia. minus bit dia. plus the size of the disc you require.
For example, using a 1" guide and a 1/4" bit, we have: 1" - 1/4" + 3 1/2" = 4 1/4" hole in the template.


----------



## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Pauli

Just one more way, a hole saw will do the trick easy, just use it without the drill bit in the center of the hole saw..most of the hole saws(the better ones) have a way to replace the drill bit with a new one, just don't put it back in place and use in on the drill press..
http://www.amazon.com/DEWALT-DW1803...ref=sr_1_9?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1322928936&sr=1-9

One more way that works great also.
Trend Pivot Frame Jig - YouTube

You can order the jig from Amazon or make one easy like I did..

see it in my uploads

Just a note
Yes that's a 40mm guide you see in the snapshot that Harry made for me..

===


----------



## Mike Wingate (Apr 26, 2009)

Drill a hole in a scrap piece of wood or plastic smaller than the disc size you want. Tape or hot glue the piece of wood or plastic to the piece of wood you need the disc from. Use your router with chosen jig. Cut disc. Separate scrap from disc. Photo of my current jig.


----------



## Santé (Jan 14, 2010)

Hi all,
I use this jig : http://www.lescopeaux.asso.fr/Techniques/Docs/Sante_Tripode_Anglais.pdf
This PDF file is in english

Santé


----------



## Mike Wingate (Apr 26, 2009)

Really nice jig Santé.


----------



## giltic (Sep 27, 2010)

One of the options would be to make a template with an equation:
Template diameter=Hole diameter+Guide diameter-Bit diameter
For example:
Diameter of the hole I wan't to make:40mm
My guide diameter:30mm
Bit diameret:8mm
And the diameter of the template is:40+30-8=62mm
Regards


----------



## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi giltic

That's a great way but in the states we can't get a 40mm guide the norm and how did you make the template ...that must be dead on,,

===



giltic said:


> One of the options would be to make a template with an equation:
> Template diameter=Hole diameter+Guide diameter-Bit diameter
> For example:
> Diameter of the hole I wan't to make:40mm
> ...


----------



## giltic (Sep 27, 2010)

bobj3;
It was just an example. You can use whatever template and bit you have and calculate the hole with the equation I've wrote.
The template was made with ordinary hole cutting jig - the one you have to drill a hole for centering pin.
Harrysin gave the same example in inches.


----------



## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi giltic


No center pin needed, no hole needed at all  or template other than the jig and it will cut the hole out for the jig to run on the inside or out side . cir. cut out from 1/4" in diam to ~, one jig for MANY jobs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18CUKZo2JUE

===

=======



giltic said:


> bobj3;
> It was just an example. You can use whatever template and bit you have and calculate the hole with the equation I've wrote.
> The template was made with ordinary hole cutting jig - the one you have to drill a hole for centering pin.
> Harrysin gave the same example in inches.


----------



## giltic (Sep 27, 2010)

So; if you need a disc without pivot point hole ...
First we will make a wooden template with ordinary circle jig with pivot point. Then we will use a guide bushing (on the router) and our favourite bit to make a disc with a help of this wooden template we have just made.
So; how big should be the hole in the wooden template?

For example: I need a disc with 100mm diameter (without a pivot point hole in the middle of the disc)
My guid bushing on the router has 30mm diameter (homemade by myself on the lathe).
The bit I have in the router is a spiral bit with 8mm diameter.

The diameter of the hole in the wooden template should be:
*Diameter of the template hole=Diameter of the disc we want to make + Diameter of the guid bushing on the router + Diameter of the bit*
100+30+8=138mm
So...if we need a disc with 100mm diameter we must made a wooden template with hole, which has diameter of 138mm.

This is for my case and my accessories and my tools. If you have different diameter of router guid bushing and different diameter of the router bit and you want bigger or smaller disc just use a eqation.

I have attached the images just because I'm not sure, I have used the right names of accessories.


----------



## giltic (Sep 27, 2010)

bobj3;
It seems I was just writting an answer and I didn't see your post.
I have seen that jig and I like it.


----------



## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi giltic


It's Very old jig by Trend I saw it about 9 years ago that was about the same time Template Tom and Harry started to push the ski jig, as you know the wheel can move so much better than pushing or dragging a stick of wood around and it can do so much more....

http://www.routerforums.com/41244-post1.html
http://www.routerforums.com/attachm...-guide-bushing-chart-guide-bushing-chart5.gif
====



giltic said:


> bobj3;
> It seems I was just writting an answer and I didn't see your post.
> I have seen that jig and I like it.


----------



## giltic (Sep 27, 2010)

Here is an interesting circle cutting jig:
ShopNotes Magazine - Router Circle Jig - Video Online Extra

And here is another one :
The Automata / Automaton Blog: How to Make a Circle Cutting Jig for a Router

The second one is less complicated. You can make discs without pivot point hole with both of them.


----------



## Joe Lyddon (Sep 11, 2004)

giltic said:


> Here is an interesting circle cutting jig:
> ShopNotes Magazine - Router Circle Jig - Video Online Extra
> 
> And here is another one :
> ...


I think I like the ShopNotes one the best... COOL... :dirol:

Thank you.


----------



## gav (Oct 12, 2009)

Yet another jig for this task.
Disk compass - YouTube


----------



## Santé (Jan 14, 2010)

Oh, it's just the same of mine, but I have in addition a gauge to determine the diameter of the hole and a fine adjustment


----------



## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

HI

Looking good but they both look like a copy of the Trend jig..with a little add on items..

Amazon.com: Trend PFJ/SET/1 Pivot Frame Jig Set: Home Improvement

Many forget they got a great cir.jig,it came with your router,it's called a edge guide, just put in a pin or remove part of the edge guide and use it for a cir.jig one of the best edge guides is the DeWalt one all that's needed is a 1/4" bolt out the junk box and a nut or two...you don't need any extra rods they came with the edge guide, the DeWalt comes with two types of rods, but I have posted that tip many times..but many want to rein-vet the wheel all the time.. 

==



Santé said:


> Oh, it's just the same of mine, but I have in addition a gauge to determine the diameter of the hole and a fine adjustment


----------



## Nanigai (Feb 13, 2009)

*another holeless circle cutting Jig*

Just saw this yesterday, best and most simple and inexpensive jig I've seen.


How to Make a Router Circle Jig - YouTube

Cheers, Ian


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

That Ian is a very neat jig, and having a metal lathe very easy to make, the side fence appears to be a Makita and I have a few of those.


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

giltic said:


> bobj3;
> It was just an example. You can use whatever template and bit you have and calculate the hole with the equation I've wrote.
> The template was made with ordinary hole cutting jig - the one you have to drill a hole for centering pin.
> Harrysin gave the same example in inches.


The only reason that I often use Imperial on this forum is for the benefit of American members, many of whom prefer it that way, and they represent the majority of the membership.


----------



## Joe Lyddon (Sep 11, 2004)

Nanigai said:


> Just saw this yesterday, best and most simple and inexpensive jig I've seen.
> 
> 
> How to Make a Router Circle Jig - YouTube
> ...


Ian,

That is one SLICK Circle Jig... Hole or Holeless!!

The only drawback, if you want to call it that, it cannot handle Smaller circles...

Great job!

Thank you very much!


----------



## giltic (Sep 27, 2010)

Harrysin;
The units for measuring lenght that majority of world is using (metres, millimetres, ....) are not a rocket science. My 10 years daughter can convert from inches to millimetres.
1inch = 25.4millimetres and that's it


----------



## Joe Lyddon (Sep 11, 2004)

giltic said:


> Harrysin;
> The units for measuring lenght that majority of world is using (metres, millimetres, ....) are not a rocket science. My 10 years daughter can convert from inches to millimetres.
> 1inch = 25.4millimetres and that's it


*Here is a website that will make it easier for those that need it. *
:dance3: :dance3: :dance3:


----------



## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

HI

The key words are " majority of the membership " and that's it 

I sure your daughter can sklp rope, I can't or to say I don't want to I'm to old to pick new skills that I will not use . LOL 

If Metric is your bag ,some forums are in the Metric way like below..
http://www.woodworkforums.com/

One more in the UK but I don't have a link to that one. 

The WWW made it a small world after all 

BUT THIS IS THE BEST WOODWORKING SITE ON THE NET.

==



giltic said:


> Harrysin;
> The units for measuring lenght that majority of world is using (metres, millimetres, ....) are not a rocket science. My 10 years daughter can convert from inches to millimetres.
> 1inch = 25.4millimetres and that's it


----------



## giltic (Sep 27, 2010)

There is no need for a bad mood bobj3 just becase I have a mixed feelings whenever I see someone is using inches for precise work.
I guess inches are good enough for construction builders or lumberjacks. But if you want to make a precise tools (for examle microne thorns for hole measuring) which are manufactured in micron tolerances (for example 1/1000 milimetre tolerance) inches are somehow rough. Like repairing wrist watch with a crowbar, would you agree.
I wonder how would someone write one micron in inches?
Of course there are also mils but how much mils is 1 microne?
Sorry all about this. I just couldn't resist.


----------



## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi


Hahahahaha not in a bad mood  love to chat with you 

I just work with wood and 1/128" is good for what I do but most of the time it's 1/64" but I do use a pencil to mark the wood then it's off one more time, if you blow on some wood it will change..put a drop of water on some wood and watch it change right in front of your eyes, once a tree always a tree..

It cracks me up when I see someone using micron tolerances for woodworking.. LOL LOL
It's not a dead thing or to say it's not a stable thing..

===



giltic said:


> There is no need for a bad mood bobj3 just becase I have a mixed feelings whenever I see someone is using inches for precise work.
> I guess inches are good enough for construction builders or lumberjacks. But if you want to make a precise tools (for examle microne thorns for hole measuring) which are manufactured in micron tolerances (for example 1/1000 milimetre tolerance) inches are somehow rough. Like repairing wrist watch with a crowbar, would you agree.
> I wonder how would someone write one micron in inches?
> Of course there are also mils but how much mils is 1 microne?
> Sorry all about this. I just couldn't resist.


----------



## giltic (Sep 27, 2010)

No no bobj3; you got me wrong. I am a mechanical engineer and I work in that profession for about 20 years. I mostly design special tools and measuring devices so I use tolerances of 1/100 and 1/1000 mm. When working with wood I'm trying to forget my job and just use a ruler and a pencil. But sometimes I can't help myself and I automaticaly grab my digital caliper.


----------



## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi

hahahahahaha I'm not a mechanical engineer but I have 10 or so of the digital calipers and use them all the time in the shop  I have a small 4" digital caliper that's always in my shirt pocket.. 


====






giltic said:


> No no bobj3; you got me wrong. I am a mechanical engineer and I work in that profession for about 20 years. I mostly design special tools and measuring devices so I use tolerances of 1/100 and 1/1000 mm. When working with wood I'm trying to forget my job and just use a ruler and a pencil. But sometimes I can't help myself and I automaticaly grab my digital caliper.


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

giltic said:


> Harrysin;
> The units for measuring lenght that majority of world is using (metres, millimetres, ....) are not a rocket science. My 10 years daughter can convert from inches to millimetres.
> 1inch = 25.4millimetres and that's it


You know that, I know that but there are so many forum members who don't, and because most of my projects are made specifically for the benefit of forum members, where possible I use Imperial but believe me, as I constantly tell members, metric is SO EASY.


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

giltic said:


> There is no need for a bad mood bobj3 just becase I have a mixed feelings whenever I see someone is using inches for precise work.
> I guess inches are good enough for construction builders or lumberjacks. But if you want to make a precise tools (for examle microne thorns for hole measuring) which are manufactured in micron tolerances (for example 1/1000 milimetre tolerance) inches are somehow rough. Like repairing wrist watch with a crowbar, would you agree.
> I wonder how would someone write one micron in inches?
> Of course there are also mils but how much mils is 1 microne?
> Sorry all about this. I just couldn't resist.


That is where I would take out my trusty eccentricity gauge which I haven't used since I retired in 2000.


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Joe Lyddon said:


> Ian,
> 
> That is one SLICK Circle Jig... Hole or Holeless!!
> 
> ...


Hey Joe, you've only just returned to the forum after a long break and here I am agreeing with you! Mark will wonder what's happened!
Yesterday I went into the shed with the idea of making the circle jig from the video. I had a 10mm rod in the lathe ready to thread the ends to match a Makita side fence. Just before starting I thought it would be a good idea to check the range of circles it was capable of and once I saw that about 6" was the smallest using a full size Makita router, I aborted the project because my present jig gets down to something like 25 to 30mm and up to about 560mm (3/4" to 22"). Because these days I confine myself to fairly small projects there is no point in making the new one. Having said that, I may when I get time make a very similar one where no metalworking will be involved.


----------



## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Harry

It's very easy for me  if I want to see the funny metric numbers I just push the button on my digital caliper but no need the norm, if I'm using a set of plans it's in the Imperial way almost all the time..

But I have never seen a set of plans that states to see it Metric, see the back side of each page..and I have many,many,many,many plans/books for wood working projects.

If it's so good/easy why don't they do it the other away around ????.

==



harrysin said:


> You know that, I know that but there are so many forum members who don't, and because most of my projects are made specifically for the benefit of forum members, where possible I use Imperial but believe me, as I constantly tell members, metric is SO EASY.


----------



## Joe Lyddon (Sep 11, 2004)

harrysin said:


> Hey Joe, you've only just returned to the forum after a long break and here I am agreeing with you! Mark will wonder what's happened!
> Yesterday I went into the shed with the idea of making the circle jig from the video. I had a 10mm rod in the lathe ready to thread the ends to match a Makita side fence. Just before starting I thought it would be a good idea to check the range of circles it was capable of and once I saw that about 6" was the smallest using a full size Makita router, I aborted the project because my present jig gets down to something like 25 to 30mm and up to about 560mm (3/4" to 22"). Because these days I confine myself to fairly small projects there is no point in making the new one. Having said that, I may when I get time make a very similar one where no metalworking will be involved.


*Harry,

YES!*

*Isn't it absolutely AMAZING that we can agree about something?!* 
:dirol: :lol: :wacko: :dance3:​


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

bobj3 said:


> Hi Harry
> 
> It's very easy for me  if I want to see the funny metric numbers I just push the button on my digital caliper but no need the norm, if I'm using a set of plans it's in the Imperial way almost all the time..
> 
> ...


Joe, all advanced countries and many third world ones realised ions ago that metric is a very simple accurate system that measures, as has been stated, down to MICRONS. Even I am equipped to measure down to two microns, considering a micron equals 0.000039", how Joe would YOU express say 27µm (microns)


----------



## Dmeadows (Jun 28, 2011)

I don't think there is any difference in accuracy attainable with either system. A millionth of something small is VERY small in either case. As long as my inch or millimeter is the same as yours, either will get the job done! Thats the whole idea of a standard in the first place!

The only ones benifitting from 2 systems are the tool manufacturers. At least on this side of the pond, I have needed to have 2 sets of sockets, wrenches, etc since the 1970's.


----------



## giltic (Sep 27, 2010)

We are far from the topic with this inches-milimetres thing but it's fun to talk something else then tenons and circles.
First we must ask ourselves who invented imperial measuring system. Imperial and US customary units derive from English units.
Then the Great Britain suddenly switched to metric system. So; the inventors of the imperial measuring system switched to metric system and this for sure means something I would say. Cold be that they found the metric system easier and more convenient? :yes4:
Wikipedia will tell you the answer, why the USA still holds to imperial measuring system:
Systems of measurement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Then we should ask ourselves who is still using imperial measuring system.
On this link are listed the countries still using imperial system. All that countries are for sure very well known and they are rather important for world economy:Burma, Liberia, Sierra Leone, Guyana, Saint Lucia, Myanmar, Antigua, Barbuda...etc etc.
Metrication - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Joe Lyddon (Sep 11, 2004)

harrysin said:


> Joe, all advanced countries and many third world ones realised ions ago that metric is a very simple accurate system that measures, as has been stated, down to MICRONS. Even I am equipped to measure down to two microns, considering a micron equals 0.000039", how Joe would YOU express say 27µm (microns)


Harry,

I agree with you again!

Quite honestly, I think we should be on the metric system because it is so much simpler!

BUT... (you knew there was a "BUT" didn't you?)

Our Imperial system is SO integrated into our lives it would make it difficult to do it 100% like just passing a law, set a date, and have it be done.... NOT that simple & probably impossible.

BUT... (I bet you didn't expect a second BUT did you?)

If we were to say that effective on a certain date, all wood products would be measured using the metric system, that might help... yes?
I don't think so...

How else could we partially switch to the metric system?

Woodworkers, furniture plans, lumber, hardware, software, etc. must adhere to the metric system... OK, when?

A simple switch date is not possible no matter how you slice it.

It has to start by doing everything with Imperial and Metric systems...
That software impact would be greater than the Y2K experience!
Once everything has had both systems present & running smoothly, THEN, set a date for the BIG switch. Then, one day when it finally comes, we will have switched to the Metric system!

What do think of that, Harry?


----------



## Lemuzz (Jul 25, 2008)

Joe Lyddon said:


> Harry,
> 
> I agree with you again!
> 
> ...




30 years ago New Zealand was faced with this dillema "How do you change from one system to another? It was decided that on 10th July 1967 that the change to Decimal currency would be made. There was concern that shoppers would be ripped off and that the relative cost of goods would skyrocket. This did not happen. It was soon realised that decimal currency was a vast improvement on imperial currency and had taken a few months and we thought in dollars and cents rather than pounds, shillings and pence even for the older generation.
3 or 4 years later, the decision was taken to complete the change from imperial measurement system to metric. This was a much bigger problem Miles to kilometers, Acres to hectares, pounds to kilograms, feet and inches to metres and centimetres. I was in an industry which had a large inventory of imperial stock which could not for various reasons be intermixed with other sizes. We pondered the answer and realised that the change would be made seamlessly as the only change was the number we were using ie; 1inch or close to 25mm. We were also producing a retail product which as with other foodstuffs were closely watched by government agencies to to protect the consumer. A product weighing one pound converted initially to 454 grams and 910 grams were later changed to 500g and 1kg. Likewise imperial tons were changed to metric tonnes. All this went relatively smoothly although at a cost to producers. The building trade were faced with additional problems. Wall board was in 8x4 sheets so studding was also at that height and metric wallboard was 2.400x1.200. The dilemma was the new sheets were 50 mm different. Even now some sheets are still in imperial. Modernising older houses is one of the few areas where problems exist although are easily solved. Shortly after the change to metrics I became involved in the engineering industry, I frequently worked to very close tolerences but with double sided measuring tapes rulers and electronic verniers and micrometers there was no problem. Just a change of numbers. A client would ask for a piece of steel say 4 feet long and this would be sold as 1.200mm. When needed to fit a bearing to a shaft, set your verniers to the bearing centre and then press the zero button. measure the shaft size and read the amount to be removed. there were no problems converting to the metric system. Some clients still think in imperial and some products are sold in imperial and metric sizes and this may continue for some years yet but as generations go by it will change. Most of the industrial countries have changed and the american auto industry has been partially changed for many years.
Having been brought with the imperial system and changed to metrics in my mid 30's If given the choice I would not change back to imperial.


----------



## Joe Lyddon (Sep 11, 2004)

Murray,

Heck, I was just thinking about the Feet / Inches part of it... in parts, furniture, etc. NOT roads, etc. . . . . . . . BUT, I guess that part should be included because we wouldn't have "feet" anymore... & we all know that there is 5,280 feet in a Mile! LOL

I think that's all I would change....

Leave the pounds, ounces, etc. the way they are... Every cookbook would have to be changed... NOT ready for that one! LOL

Thank you for your story... WOW!


----------



## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

Joe Lyddon said:


> Murray,
> 
> Heck, I was just thinking about the Feet / Inches part of it... in parts, furniture, etc. NOT roads, etc. . . . . . . . BUT, I guess that part should be included because we wouldn't have "feet" anymore... & we all know that there is 5,280 feet in a Mile! LOL
> 
> ...


Hi Joe,

A pinch of salt will not change with metric........Most cooks work to a "close enough" approach anyway.........:wacko:


----------



## Lemuzz (Jul 25, 2008)

Joe Lyddon said:


> Murray,
> 
> Heck, I was just thinking about the Feet / Inches part of it... in parts, furniture, etc. NOT roads, etc. . . . . . . . BUT, I guess that part should be included because we wouldn't have "feet" anymore... & we all know that there is 5,280 feet in a Mile! LOL
> 
> ...


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Other than the start of decimal currency was 14th of February 1966 here In Australia, our story is pretty much identical to that described by Murray. The complete changeover still hasn't happened, Bunnings, our big box stores only removed Imperial nut and bolts a matter of months ago. Television sizes are still quoted in both Imperial and Metric.


----------



## Joe Lyddon (Sep 11, 2004)

Harry,

I am surprised!

Here, I thought you guys were 100% pure and CLEAN Metric!!

I don't feel so bad now... LOL


----------



## dutchman 46 (May 23, 2007)

Sante! Your jig is fantastic, and so is Your page that shows the jig! 9 pages in PDF! Very nicely done, for sure!


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Joe Lyddon said:


> Harry,
> 
> I am surprised!
> 
> ...


I don't think that anyone ever suggested that such a changeover can happen overnight Joe but the sooner it starts the better, many countries have managed it successfully.


----------



## Joe Lyddon (Sep 11, 2004)

Well, I guess we HAVE Started...!!

Metric wrenches, other tools, plans, etc., etc. are being sold more & more...
Labels too are containing Metric values...

I guess it's just a start... getting a Toe into the door! 
:dance3: :dance3: :dance3:


----------



## NavyCharles24 (Feb 23, 2011)

Nice!


----------



## Joe Lyddon (Sep 11, 2004)

*I just received an email with THIS in it!*
*
MLCS Circle Cutting Jig Video
*
Looks really COOL to me...

Just thought you'd like to know...


----------



## MEBCWD (Jan 14, 2012)

Mike Wingate said:


> Drill a hole in a scrap piece of wood or plastic smaller than the disc size you want. Tape or hot glue the piece of wood or plastic to the piece of wood you need the disc from. Use your router with chosen jig. Cut disc. Separate scrap from disc. Photo of my current jig.


This will accomplish what you want to do easily. The scrap piece has the pilot hole in it and is temporarily bonded to the work piece. use a jig similar to the MLCS jig.
Remover the scrap piece and your piece is done. Keep the scrap piece and note on it what it is for. I always kept small jigs like this in a box under my table and everyone always came looking for a easy fix to what they thought was a real problem.

Hope this helps,
Mike


----------



## Joe Lyddon (Sep 11, 2004)

That's exactly what I was thinking too... 

Just a Cross of Dbl-Sided tape with a stub nail pushed through it would work!

... and you could do it for a lot less than $40! :lol: :dance3:


----------

