# Finally - skiis



## jschaben (Jun 21, 2009)

Well, almost. Still got a couple of things to finish up. After much contemplation and a lot more procrastination, I finally got a ski jig put together. Likely much more complicated than need be, but I seem to have an inclination for that.
Cheeks are 3/4 MDF + 1/2 Birch plywood. Cheeks ride on 1/8" UHMW runners 1/8" wider than the cheeks. Support rods are 1/2" plated steel rods riding in 1/2" nylon bearings and attached with heavy duty (1/8" thick) conduit clamps. The base plate is 3/8" lexan and drilled for both my routers. I'm still deciding whether to drill it for the Trend.
Just doing the pics of the cheek development in this post as they were the most complex. After they were done, the rest was mostly assembly, with a couple of minor excusions with the supports.


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## Soapdish (Jan 18, 2010)

Really nice work John, looks like lots of thought and planning involved. I like the idea of using the conduit clamps. Where did u get the rod?


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## jw2170 (Jan 24, 2008)

Soapdish said:


> Really nice work John, looks like lots of thought and planning involved. I like the idea of using the conduit clamps. Where did u get the rod?


I agree, nice work John.:sold:


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## jschaben (Jun 21, 2009)

Soapdish said:


> Really nice work John, looks like lots of thought and planning involved. I like the idea of using the conduit clamps. Where did u get the rod?


Hi Jake - Got the rods from the local welding shop, have seen them at farm supply stores also, Orsclens, Tractor Supply etc. Haven't seen plated ones at the big box places. 
Conduit clamps were bit of a pain, had to order the heavy ones, no one around here had them except electrical contractor suppliers and they couldn't/wouldn't sell retail, no tax license or some such nonsense. Could probably have run down an electrician and begged some off him but was getting frustrated at this point. They took a little rework, ID was 11/16 and the bearings 3/4, die grinder and carbide burr fixed that.

Thanks James


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## almosta7ftr (Jul 29, 2010)

interesting project you have there. I am new to the forum, so forgive me if there were earlier posts, but could you explain what you use this for. I'm assuming you can smooth a surface and free hand cut patterns - anything else?


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## jschaben (Jun 21, 2009)

almosta7ftr said:


> interesting project you have there. I am new to the forum, so forgive me if there were earlier posts, but could you explain what you use this for. I'm assuming you can smooth a surface and free hand cut patterns - anything else?


Hi Dirk - I'm just getting involved with the things so I haven't got all the in's and out's figured out yet. A couple of other members here have put out some outstanding projects using them. One Member, Harrysin, has put together some tutorials, you may want to search for some of his posts and check his gallery out.
Welcome to the forum


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi John

Nice job,, you know me I will ask what it cost you to make your setup..

=====


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## jschaben (Jun 21, 2009)

bobj3 said:


> Hi John
> 
> Nice job,, you know me I will ask what it cost you to make your setup..
> 
> =====


Hi Bob- yeah, figured you would,, haven't got a good number. Much more than it should have just in shipping..  
Plywood and MDF were scrap. t-track was some leftover I had from drill press table build. When I order that stuff I usually just get the package deal from Rockler or Hartville so I usually have plenty laying around. Bearings were about a buck apiece and conduit deals around 50 cents each but about $10 shipping. h34r: Lexan off eBay. All told, probably a little better than $50, about half shipping. 
Gave me a bunch of interesting problems to work out though. Some still aren't worked out. Setup isn't as easy as I would like it to be. Gonna need some time to figure that out, just got it done enough to dry run it a bit today. Haven't got the bit opening in yet either. Will likely make that about 3 1/4 with a 1/4" ledge for inserts. Still haven't decided whether to include the Trend router on the bolt pattern either. That just showed up Monday. 
Still need to put locks on the rod supports too. Those are just 3/8 iron pipe nipples reamed out for the 1/2" rod. 
Just waitin on Harry to jump me for more pics


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi John

Thanks, I know I have said this b/4 but the HF plate makes the job easy and it's only 15.oo ea. on sale, all the center holes are in place and it's 3/8" thick just need to cut it down to size.. I just got 5 of them for many jobs around the shop that come up all the time..
The real plus with the HF plate you can pop in a brass guide very easy and get it tight than pop it back in place..almost like the Milescraft plate, but it will take on any bit size you want to use..

Search results for: 'router plate'

http://www.routerforums.com/attachm...fused-all-guide-bushings-options-100_1811.jpg

Just a tip<<3/8 iron pipe nipples, you can use the brass type to lock them in place the ones with the brass ball ring used on copper pipe the norm..not the type that pinch down but the type that can be taking off from to time to time, the brass ring type..

=======



jschaben said:


> Hi Bob- yeah, figured you would,, haven't got a good number. Much more than it should have just in shipping..
> Plywood and MDF were scrap. t-track was some leftover I had from drill press table build. When I order that stuff I usually just get the package deal from Rockler or Hartville so I usually have plenty laying around. Bearings were about a buck apiece and conduit deals around 50 cents each but about $10 shipping. h34r: Lexan off eBay. All told, probably a little better than $50, about half shipping.
> Gave me a bunch of interesting problems to work out though. Some still aren't worked out. Setup isn't as easy as I would like it to be. Gonna need some time to figure that out, just got it done enough to dry run it a bit today. Haven't got the bit opening in yet either. Will likely make that about 3 1/4 with a 1/4" ledge for inserts. Still haven't decided whether to include the Trend router on the bolt pattern either. That just showed up Monday.
> Still need to put locks on the rod supports too. Those are just 3/8 iron pipe nipples reamed out for the 1/2" rod.
> Just waitin on Harry to jump me for more pics


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Soapdish said:


> Really nice work John, looks like lots of thought and planning involved. I like the idea of using the conduit clamps. Where did u get the rod?


Hi Jake:

There are three (four) kinds of rod you can use. There is mild steel which is cheap, inconsistent in it's roundness and flexes terribly. Next, there's drill rod which is a lot stronger, dimensionally accurate with some flexing. Then there's a third, harder, stronger type. In French they call it "Thompson" however, I can find no reference for Thompson Rod or "Thompson" type of steel rod in English. It is stronger, more dimensionally stable than drill rod and flexes even less. Then, there's threaded rod which I rate akin to a router destroyer.


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## jschaben (Jun 21, 2009)

allthunbs said:


> Hi Jake:
> 
> There are three (four) kinds of rod you can use. There is mild steel which is cheap, inconsistent in it's roundness and flexes terribly. Next, there's drill rod which is a lot stronger, dimensionally accurate with some flexing. Then there's a third, harder, stronger type. In French they call it "Thompson" however, I can find no reference for Thompson Rod or "Thompson" type of steel rod in English. It is stronger, more dimensionally stable than drill rod and flexes even less. Then, there's threaded rod which I rate akin to a router destroyer.


Actually, there are dozens of alloys, all of which have different capabilities and attributes. Boils down to what makes sense for the cost/benefits.
McMaster-Carr


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Hi Dirk:



almosta7ftr said:


> interesting project you have there. I am new to the forum, so forgive me if there were earlier posts, but could you explain what you use this for. I'm assuming you can smooth a surface and free hand cut patterns - anything else?


Skis are one of the 25 methods of using a router. Skis are one of the first methods outside of the stock handles that you would use. Yes, you can even out a surface and it will increase control for freehand cuts.

Other members here use it for template work allowing that it provides them greater control over the router and some find the visibility better. 

I use them for jointery, in several ways. First, I use an illuminated magnifying glass. There are those that add lights and even lighted baseplates. When using the skis freehand I score my cut lines with a striking knife, bevel to the waste side, and remove the bevel in the cut. When you're working at those close a tolerances, the magnifying glass better be a good powerful one. Use a spiral bit and work carefully.

I also fix the skis and slide the router across the rods. However, I'm shopping around looking for a piece of nylon that I can squeeze into the holes to eliminate wear on the rod holes in the base. I'm thinking a small piece of UHMW might work too.

Then, you can get into the creative stuff. The skis are necessary for saddle work and are the fundamental element in pivot frames. You can also vary the height of each end of the rods on the skis and cut slight angles or do graduated sliding cuts.

There is one principal aid for skis. When you set the depth of cut or when you plunge the router it will cause the rods to dip, throwing off your measurements. I set my skis to "standard" heights and I use a block of wood to set those heights. I use the same block under the middle of the rods to stabilize the rods while I set the depth. After I start the cut, I carefully remove the block. It is sometimes handy to have someone carefully remove the block for you. Remember, they need full safety equipment too - hearing, eye and lung protection. It might be advisable to practice the movement before you commit to the final workpiece.

Any operation and most especially with skis, I practice the movements I'm going to make before I turn on the router. You have to remember that the skis stick out the sides of the router. It is my experience that tables aren't usually big enough for skis. I've done a complete setup only to redo it when, during practice, the ski slipped off the table. I'm also working on solving the hold down problem with skis, especially with larger pieces.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Jack, you have done a magnificent job but I really don't think that such precision is necessary. I can't think of a procedure where the router needs to be slid along the rails during routing. You're router has 12mm holes for the rods to go through so why reduce the depth of cut by adding a sub-base? Because the router holes are not super precision, cheap bright mild steel is fine for the rods and mine are still like new after extensive use over the last ten years. One final comment (I hope we can still be friends), there are occasions when the end cheeks need to run against rails, so no protrusion is a must. I really am a firm believer in the forums motto KISS, keep it super simple.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Dirk

I'm a big fan of the threaded rod, not all threaded rod is sharp, I use B7 Acme rod that is almost as flat as round rod and is very strong (4140 steel DHT) , the same stuff they use for most vise clamps, I also use 3/8-24 thread , that's almost the same as Acme rod because you have 24 threads in one in. and you get it for peanuts..


Note Dirk,,,, I also live in Denver, welcome to forum, my brother in law was a cop in Denver for 30 years, Det. Mike Linville, he has pass on but a great guy and a great cop..

Anyway Welcome to the forum 

=======


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## misterboo (Aug 25, 2007)

Ron, 
Thomson isn't a type of rod. Thomson is a manufacturer of linear motion components. Their website is thomsonlinear dot com. There are other mfgs as well. Try Googling "linear motion" 

Cheers,
Bill



allthunbs said:


> Hi Jake:
> 
> There are three (four) kinds of rod you can use. There is mild steel which is cheap, inconsistent in it's roundness and flexes terribly. Next, there's drill rod which is a lot stronger, dimensionally accurate with some flexing. Then there's a third, harder, stronger type. In French they call it "Thompson" however, I can find no reference for Thompson Rod or "Thompson" type of steel rod in English. It is stronger, more dimensionally stable than drill rod and flexes even less. Then, there's threaded rod which I rate akin to a router destroyer.


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## jschaben (Jun 21, 2009)

harrysin said:


> Jack, you have done a magnificent job but I really don't think that such precision is necessary. I can't think of a procedure where the router needs to be slid along the rails during routing. You're router has 12mm holes for the rods to go through so why reduce the depth of cut by adding a sub-base? Because the router holes are not super precision, cheap bright mild steel is fine for the rods and mine are still like new after extensive use over the last ten years. One final comment (I hope we can still be friends), there are occasions when the end cheeks need to run against rails, so no protrusion is a must. I really am a firm believer in the forums motto KISS, keep it super simple.


Hi Harry, you are probably right that I went a bit overboard on the project. I think I took it on as much as a challenge than anything. Notice, there are no protrusions on the inside of the cheeks and well above the workpiece on the outside. Most pictures I have seen any guide rails were clamped on the inside of the cheeks. The conduit clamps are drilled and tapped so the carriage can be locked in place and there are stop collars on the rods to limit lateral side movement. 
Like I said, as much of a challenge as anything.:blink:


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

jschaben said:


> Hi Harry, you are probably right that I went a bit overboard on the project. I think I took it on as much as a challenge than anything. Notice, there are no protrusions on the inside of the cheeks and well above the workpiece on the outside. Most pictures I have seen any guide rails were clamped on the inside of the cheeks. The conduit clamps are drilled and tapped so the carriage can be locked in place and there are stop collars on the rods to limit lateral side movement.
> Like I said, as much of a challenge as anything.:blink:


In that case John, mission accomplished, 10/10.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

mister boo said:


> Ron,
> Thomson isn't a type of rod. Thomson is a manufacturer of linear motion components. Their website is thomsonlinear dot com. There are other mfgs as well. Try Googling "linear motion"
> 
> Cheers,
> Bill


Hi Bill:

Thanks for the info. I took a look at your link and the linear motion topic, generally. An English-language brand, sometimes, becomes a generic term when it gets translated into French. So it is possible that rods used by Thomson has become a "class" of metal rod in French but I won't be able to follow up until Monday at the earliest.

I use skis and the more I use them the more I need to refine them. I'm trying to find rods with less flex than drill rod. I have some mild steel rod and the deflection would drive anyone, using skis, nuts. The drill rod is a vast improvement. However, I'm still looking for that definitive ski rod. I'm looking for almost no flex in a 1/2" (12mm) rod over about 24". I was hoping that the "Thompson rod" might be the answer but by your comments I'm back to the drawing board.


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## istracpsboss (Sep 14, 2008)

I've made my board with a matrix of tapped holes and made my skis.

I'm not getting a very smooth movement when I move the skis along and I wondered what you guys interface them with. Are you using slick tape or something on the base of the skis or on the bottom of the sides of the skis where they bear against the matrix board edges? 
My skis are painted, as is the workboard the matrix board sits on, although the matrix board itself is plain MDF.

Cheers

Peter


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## jschaben (Jun 21, 2009)

istracpsboss said:


> I've made my board with a matrix of tapped holes and made my skis.
> 
> I'm not getting a very smooth movement when I move the skis along and I wondered what you guys interface them with. Are you using slick tape or something on the base of the skis or on the bottom of the sides of the skis where they bear against the matrix board edges?
> My skis are painted, as is the workboard the matrix board sits on, although the matrix board itself is plain MDF.
> ...


Hi Peter - I'm using 1/8" thick UHMW on the bottom of the skis. I cut them 1/16" wider so they actually overlap the ski cheeks a bit. Runs very smooth on the bench but, I confess I haven't tried them with the cam board yet. My plan is to add strips the the inside faces if there is a problem. I'm planning on making another cam board soon anyway as I have a few issues with this one I want to get resolved.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Guys

I do about the same but I use the tape..

UHMW Slick Tape

UHMW Plastic Sheets and Strips

=========


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

istracpsboss said:


> I've made my board with a matrix of tapped holes and made my skis.
> 
> I'm not getting a very smooth movement when I move the skis along and I wondered what you guys interface them with. Are you using slick tape or something on the base of the skis or on the bottom of the sides of the skis where they bear against the matrix board edges?
> My skis are painted, as is the workboard the matrix board sits on, although the matrix board itself is plain MDF.
> ...


Hi Peter:

Neither my table surface nor my skis are painted. I also note that my ski handles are at the surface of the table so I'm moving from the bottom of the skis, not from the top. You might have to sand off the paint if you can.


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## istracpsboss (Sep 14, 2008)

Thanks guys. As I can't get slick tape here, I might try slicing the edge off a chopping board.

Cheers

Peter


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Peter, I have always used iron-on edging strip and have no movement problems. If the movement is too slippery, it's likely to cause unwanted errors, a little stiffness gives better control (in my humble opinion of course!)


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Harry

That's a good tip ,I have also used some laminate stock on one set ,it's very thin and with the hot air gun it will mold right to the bottom of the skis and with some good contact glue it's in place..


=======



harrysin said:


> Peter, I have always used iron-on edging strip and have no movement problems. If the movement is too slippery, it's likely to cause unwanted errors, a little stiffness gives better control (in my humble opinion of course!)


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## matt1710 (Sep 21, 2010)

Just a thought re "a better rod" - that doesn't flex and sag - how about titanium? Very expensive I know - but surely stiff enough? It's hard to work with too - I've done it before and it destroys drills bits!


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## bobbotron (Jan 7, 2010)

I believe steel deflects less than titanium. Perhaps you'd be better off buying some 4130 steel from aircraft spruce, or a higher grade steel from metal supermarkets (or similar metal shop?)


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

bobbotron said:


> I believe steel deflects less than titanium. Perhaps you'd be better off buying some 4130 steel from aircraft spruce, or a higher grade steel from metal supermarkets (or similar metal shop?)


Hi Rob and Matthew:

Rather than trying to find stiffer rods, I add additional, temporary support, under the rods next to the router until the depth is set and the router is proceeding nicely. Then, I remove the blocks or have a "helper" remove them. They're nothing fancy, just a scrap block of wood of sufficient size to set the height of the rods and provide median support. I don't use it to set "zero" router depth or depth of cut.

I do use drill rod over other rod types. I find they're smoother and as I slide the router over the rails, they stay smooth. They don't chatter or catch, just glide. I'm trying to find a sliver of UHMW to fit between the router and the rods but not much success yet. I tried cutting a tiny bit off some that I have and that was a stellar failure. Even a sharp knife isn't sufficiently consistent. All I need is a sliver about the thickness of a piece of paper. Suggestions appreciated.


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## matt1710 (Sep 21, 2010)

Good idea. I guess going with the stiffest rod you can get is the best start-point, and then supporting it will only improve the situation.


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## jschaben (Jun 21, 2009)

allthunbs said:


> I'm trying to find a sliver of UHMW to fit between the router and the rods but not much success yet. I tried cutting a tiny bit off some that I have and that was a stellar failure. Even a sharp knife isn't sufficiently consistent. All I need is a sliver about the thickness of a piece of paper. Suggestions appreciated.


UHMW Plastic Sheets and Strips


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

jschaben said:


> UHMW Plastic Sheets and Strips


Thanks John:

I'll have to check if they ship to Canada. The dollar's almost at par at the moment so it's a good time to buy.

Ron


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## jschaben (Jun 21, 2009)

allthunbs said:


> Thanks John:
> 
> I'll have to check if they ship to Canada. The dollar's almost at par at the moment so it's a good time to buy.
> 
> Ron


Gotta scroll down the page to find this one. Pretty sure they ship
MLCS Bargain Bin HQ--Closeouts, Discontinued Items, Etc. Mean Big Savings


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

jschaben said:


> Gotta scroll down the page to find this one. Pretty sure they ship
> MLCS Bargain Bin HQ--Closeouts, Discontinued Items, Etc. Mean Big Savings


Hi John:

Thanks. I have a branch of Laird Plastics here so I'll check with them to see what they have in stock. Maybe cheaper, who knows ;-)


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

matt1710 said:


> Just a thought re "a better rod" - that doesn't flex and sag - how about titanium? Very expensive I know - but surely stiff enough? It's hard to work with too - I've done it before and it destroys drills bits!


Matt, please believe me, there is no sag when using 12mm mild steel rods with a Makita 3612C router. Even with thinner rods which some routers require, bearing in mind that the skis are operated from the end cheeks, there just isn't a problem. I'll repeat some shots to clarify measurements that you seem to be unsure of. I really don't see any advantage in using thicker material for the end cheeks, however use whatever you have in stock. Regarding the slots, I left an inch from the top and 3/4" from the bottom. Because I made this project especially for the forum where many members, especially beginners are miffed by metric, I used Imperial measurements.
By the way Matt, I received a complimentary PM from you just before my disagreement with the moderation team. I sent you a long answer but I'm not sure if you actually received it, if not, PM me again.


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## matt1710 (Sep 21, 2010)

Hi Harry

That sounds good - when I mentioned "drill rod" to my wood-work teacher (who also has access to the metal work workshop, where they have engineering lathes...) he looked horrified and said that the bits wouldn't be able to mill 12mm drill rod. So maybe they will be able to do 12mm mild steel - hopefully they do as I'll then go with that option. 

Thanks for the extra pic and measurements. How bizarre that anyone who works in imperial, could be miffed by metric. Imperial is the most bizarre measurement system ever!!

I didn't receive the long reply - at least I don't think so. Please resend it. 

Matthew


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

matt1710 said:


> Hi Harry
> 
> That sounds good - when I mentioned "drill rod" to my wood-work teacher (who also has access to the metal work workshop, where they have engineering lathes...) he looked horrified and said that the bits wouldn't be able to mill 12mm drill rod. So maybe they will be able to do 12mm mild steel - hopefully they do as I'll then go with that option.
> 
> ...


Every now and then, when the forum gets gets stale, I raise the subject of metric. I started a new little routing project today using a mixture of Imperial and metric guides and cutters to enable me to achieve desired off-sets. ANY metal shop with a lathe can turn down and thread a mild steel rod Matt. As far as I can ascertain, the problem in the US isn't just difficulty in using metric, it's the fact that suppliers are still reluctant to produce cutters and template guides in metric, not enough woodworkers are insisting on them, once they create a need, they will be produced!


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## Neil Tsubota (Mar 20, 2010)

Nice Project. Since I am a Newbie.

Why did you pick 8-32 Treads for this project ?

Did you try 1/4" by 20 TPI ?

Thanks


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## jschaben (Jun 21, 2009)

Neil Tsubota said:


> Nice Project. Since I am a Newbie.
> 
> Why did you pick 8-32 Treads for this project ?
> 
> ...


Hi Neil - I assume you are asking about the project originally posted. I used 8-32 because they are just used to retain the t-tracks. 1/4-20 would have been much to large. Probably not needed at all, Spax or #6 wood screws would likely have been adequate. For that matter t-tracks are optional, was just going for a tool-less adjustment.

I think many here missed the point of the project. Many of my shop projects are far more complex than they need be as I view them as I view them as "skill builders". I try to incorporate some different processes or ideas into each just to see if I can accomplish it and shake out problems or oversights. As a result, many are way over budget and even further behind schedule but I have acquired knowledge and skills I otherwise would not have.
My signature is no joke:haha:


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## matt1710 (Sep 21, 2010)

harrysin said:


> Every now and then, when the forum gets gets stale, I raise the subject of metric. I started a new little routing project today using a mixture of Imperial and metric guides and cutters to enable me to achieve desired off-sets. ANY metal shop with a lathe can turn down and thread a mild steel rod Matt. As far as I can ascertain, the problem in the US isn't just difficulty in using metric, it's the fact that suppliers are still reluctant to produce cutters and template guides in metric, not enough woodworkers are insisting on them, once they create a need, they will be produced!


Yes, the mild steel would be ok there - but not the drill rod, apparently. He's also the wood-work teacher who would let me use the metal work lab - so wouldn't want me damaging anything trying to work something too hard for the equipment there. So I'll look for mild steel, 12mm rod - then all should go well.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

matt1710 said:


> Yes, the mild steel would be ok there - but not the drill rod, apparently. He's also the wood-work teacher who would let me use the metal work lab - so wouldn't want me damaging anything trying to work something too hard for the equipment there. So I'll look for mild steel, 12mm rod - then all should go well.


Yup, my machinist wasn't happy with my selection of drill rod, either. However, I was working out 30" long rods so I figured drill rod was the ticket. The machinist chucked in a carbide cutter and took small nibbles and multiple passes. Worked like a charm.


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## Soapdish (Jan 18, 2010)

*Concerning Inch vs Metric*

I for one prefer the metric system. I've worked for various Japanese companies over the last 15 years and of course that is all we use. When I'm called to work on equipment that is made in USA I cringe trying to figure out what allen wrench I've got to use. Metric is simple. 2, 2.5,3,4,5,6,8,10 mm. That is all you need. Also much easier to read a metric tape measure or scale. I'm with you Harry. Imperial system is junk. There I said it.


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## Ralph Barker (Dec 15, 2008)

jschaben said:


> . . . . As a result, many are way over budget and even further behind schedule . . .


Sounds like you should take up contracting with the government, John.


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## matt1710 (Sep 21, 2010)

allthunbs said:


> Yup, my machinist wasn't happy with my selection of drill rod, either. However, I was working out 30" long rods so I figured drill rod was the ticket. The machinist chucked in a carbide cutter and took small nibbles and multiple passes. Worked like a charm.


Having finally located a source of 12mm mild steel, and a machinist who would mill and thread the rods at a reasonable price, I discovered BJ's post re using lock collars. Whilst there are some issues with it (like having to use a clamp to tension the springs), I like the idea of being able to reduce the width of the ski stance - giving the router more support. So I'm going to try BJ's method first - and if I don't like it, can always get the rod milled and threaded and go with wingnuts. It also means that I don't have to involve the machinist at all, and can use some 12mm stainless rod a friend gave me - he's just finished his amazing 72' yacht (check it out : Haparanda Home) and had a few bits of stainless around. 

My question is (and this one will probably show me for the true newbie I am!) - how do I cut the 12mm wide slots in the cheeks? I've never seen a 12mm bit - the closest I have is a 1/2" (so 12.7mm) TC spiral downcut. All the bits I've seen here in NZ seem to be imperial size - which doesn't equate to 'whole' metric values. I figured I could use a smaller diameter bit (like a 1/4") and make several passes - constrained by fences on both sides?? Or is there an easier way? Bear in mind that I'm in the process of constructing my workbench, so have little in the way of equipment!

Matthew


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

matt1710 said:


> Having finally located a source of 12mm mild steel, and a machinist who would mill and thread the rods at a reasonable price, I discovered BJ's post re using lock collars. Whilst there are some issues with it (like having to use a clamp to tension the springs), I like the idea of being able to reduce the width of the ski stance - giving the router more support. So I'm going to try BJ's method first - and if I don't like it, can always get the rod milled and threaded and go with wingnuts. It also means that I don't have to involve the machinist at all, and can use some 12mm stainless rod a friend gave me - he's just finished his amazing 72' yacht (check it out : Haparanda Home) and had a few bits of stainless around.
> 
> My question is (and this one will probably show me for the true newbie I am!) - how do I cut the 12mm wide slots in the cheeks? I've never seen a 12mm bit - the closest I have is a 1/2" (so 12.7mm) TC spiral downcut. All the bits I've seen here in NZ seem to be imperial size - which doesn't equate to 'whole' metric values. I figured I could use a smaller diameter bit (like a 1/4") and make several passes - constrained by fences on both sides?? Or is there an easier way? Bear in mind that I'm in the process of constructing my workbench, so have little in the way of equipment!
> 
> Matthew


!2mm bits are readily available over here Matt., as cheap as a little over $3.00 each from Saw and Bits (unfortunately they no longer export) Having said this, the width of the slot is not critical, 0.5" is fine. The more that I think about Bj's spring system, the more difficult and long winded it seems to be to adjust compared with just moments with wing nuts as shown in one of the shots in my latest thread today, routing for beginners. Please do try both methods and let us all have your opinion Matt.


----------



## jschaben (Jun 21, 2009)

Ralph Barker said:


> Sounds like you should take up contracting with the government, John.


:lol::lol::lol:Thanks Ralph:lol::lol::lol:


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## matt1710 (Sep 21, 2010)

Thanks once again Harry. I'll have to have a better look - surely they have metric sizes here in little old New Zealand! However, if you say that my 12.7mm cutter will be fine for the slots, with 12mm rod through them, I'll just use that. It's a Linbide spiral tungsten carbide bit and does a very, very good job in the 3612C. 

Will check out your latest post.


Matthew



harrysin said:


> !2mm bits are readily available over here Matt., as cheap as a little over $3.00 each from Saw and Bits (unfortunately they no longer export) Having said this, the width of the slot is not critical, 0.5" is fine. The more that I think about Bj's spring system, the more difficult and long winded it seems to be to adjust compared with just moments with wing nuts as shown in one of the shots in my latest thread today, routing for beginners. Please do try both methods and let us all have your opinion Matt.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Here is a link to one NZ company that have 12mm bits. I don't know if this pricing is indicative of NZ pricing.

PowerTool Shop: Linbide-Router Bit 2 Flute. From [Router Bit 2 Flute]


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## Router mann (Nov 2, 2010)

Jake, this is a work of art in itself! You'll make some amazing projects with it.


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## CASparky (Oct 14, 2004)

Harrysin,

May I ask where your Beginner Tutorials are hidden?
The ones that were in a recent newsletter, that seem
to have disappeared from my Inbox.
I tried doing several searches on this website to no avail.
Obviously I am not doing something right (besides not using my router).
Thanks, Lou


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## darrink (Sep 7, 2009)

Lou,
I believe these are what your are looking for. If not, Harry can point us both in the right direction.

http://www.routerforums.com/guide-bushings-templates/21306-routing-tutorial-beginners.html

http://www.routerforums.com/guide-bushings-templates/21412-routing-tutorial-beginners-2-a.html

http://www.routerforums.com/guide-bushings-templates/21898-routing-tutorial-beginners-3-a.html
http://www.routerforums.com/portable-routing/24253-part-4-routing-beginners.html


Darrin


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## CASparky (Oct 14, 2004)

Thanks Darrin.

For some reason (I seem to have a lot of those on here),
it will not let me Bookmark them. So I copy and pasted
the links so I'll have them.
Thanks Again Darrin, Lou


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Thanks Darrin for beating me to it, I'm sure that I would have taken longer than you to find them (it's an age thing you know)


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## darrink (Sep 7, 2009)

No problem Harry. As much teaching as you do here, it was the least I could do. And thankfully I got it right. Would you mind if I combined each tutorial into a PDF and uploaded them? I could put the link to the corresponding thread in the PDF so it would all be in one nice spot. I could also email them to you so you can look at them and upload them if you would like.

Thanks!


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Darrin

That would be great BUT the PDF would be to big to upload it to the forum..it will stop at 1.2 mb..but Mark is working on that ...some day maybe.. 

========



darrink said:


> No problem Harry. As much teaching as you do here, it was the least I could do. And thankfully I got it right. Would you mind if I combined each tutorial into a PDF and uploaded them? I could put the link to the corresponding thread in the PDF so it would all be in one nice spot. I could also email them to you so you can look at them and upload them if you would like.
> 
> Thanks!


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## darrink (Sep 7, 2009)

Hey BJ check it out.

Harry, let me know if this is okay. If you want me to remove it I will.

Thanks!
Darrin


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

darrink said:


> No problem Harry. As much teaching as you do here, it was the least I could do. And thankfully I got it right. Would you mind if I combined each tutorial into a PDF and uploaded them? I could put the link to the corresponding thread in the PDF so it would all be in one nice spot. I could also email them to you so you can look at them and upload them if you would like.
> 
> Thanks!


Darrink, and in fact all members, please feel free to do as you like with anything and everything that I post on the forum, if I can help just one member to improve his/her skills, then I shall have succeeded in what I set out to accomplish.


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## SrgB (Nov 16, 2010)

jschaben said:


> Well, almost. Still got a couple of things to finish up. After much contemplation and a lot more procrastination, I finally got a ski jig put together. Likely much more complicated than need be, but I seem to have an inclination for that.
> Cheeks are 3/4 MDF + 1/2 Birch plywood. Cheeks ride on 1/8" UHMW runners 1/8" wider than the cheeks. Support rods are 1/2" plated steel rods riding in 1/2" nylon bearings and attached with heavy duty (1/8" thick) conduit clamps. The base plate is 3/8" lexan and drilled for both my routers. I'm still deciding whether to drill it for the Trend.
> Just doing the pics of the cheek development in this post as they were the most complex. After they were done, the rest was mostly assembly, with a couple of minor excusions with the supports.


Hi, Jack!
I apologize for the bad English.
I'm a beginner.
I like skiing.
I admire your work.
Thank you!
Sincerely, Sergey.


----------



## SrgB (Nov 16, 2010)

*Thank you for the first lesson.*

[QUOTE = darrink; 211761] Эй BJ проверить его.

Гарри, дайте мне знать, если это хорошо. Если вы хотите, чтобы я удалить его я.

Спасибо!
Даррин
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Routing for Beginners - Lesson One.pdf (1.50 MB, 9 views)

[/ QUOTE]

Hello, Darrin!
I apologize for the bad English.
I'm a beginner. With a PC uncertain.

Thank you for the first lesson. Waiting for the continuation!
Sincerely, Sergey.


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

darrink said:


> Hey BJ check it out.
> 
> Harry, let me know if this is okay. If you want me to remove it I will.
> 
> ...


WOW! that's great.
*You must be in the publishing industry, I'm very impressed Darrink.*


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Darrin

I did and all I can say is WOW also, it was so good I forgot what the project was about 

Very nice job  now do the rest of Harry's zip files than have the Administrator, Moderation Team turn them into sticky notes so the others can find them easy..maybe a new header called the Best from Harrysin, PDF files work for everyone..


Just a a side note ,I wish Harry would put that 40mm guide back in the drawer and use a 1" one that everyone can get and use, he and TT got hung up on that guide and have been pushing it for a very long time. like they say keep in the KISS way..


======


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## matt1710 (Sep 21, 2010)

I love the 40mm guide too!! Why would one use a 12.7mm guide? Seems a very strange number... ;-)


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Matt

that would be 1" = 25.4 mm I think, many in states can't get a 40mm guide easy.

======



matt1710 said:


> I love the 40mm guide too!! Why would one use a 12.7mm guide? Seems a very strange number... ;-)


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## matt1710 (Sep 21, 2010)

Ahh - whoops! See how easily I get confused with that crazy imperial system! I was clearly thinking 1/2"...


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## Ralph Barker (Dec 15, 2008)

I usually use a guide bushing that measures .666". Small wonder that I have a devil of a time with everything, eh?


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Ralph Barker said:


> I usually use a guide bushing that measures .666". Small wonder that I have a devil of a time with everything, eh?


I hope that you don't attempt to use a 19mm cutter with that guide Ralph.


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## darrink (Sep 7, 2009)

*Lesson Two pdf*



harrysin said:


> WOW! that's great.
> *You must be in the publishing industry, I'm very impressed Darrink.*


Here is Routing for Beginners - Lesson Two.

Bob,
I'm not sure how to get the Admins or Moderators to make them a sticky. Can you help me out with that, or tell me what I need to do?

Thanks!
Darrin


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Darrin

They are sharp and should pickup on it, but just to make sure PM them..I would start at the top..  with Mark.

I must say the 2nd.one is as good as the 1st..Great Job and I'm sure Harry will like it also..it will be real PLUS to the forum..

I think I like it over the videos ( You-Tube stuff) you can look all you want and hold it in place ..I have a folder on the HD for PDF files and I'm going to add them to it...it's that good.. 

=======



darrink said:


> Here is Routing for Beginners - Lesson Two.
> 
> Bob,
> I'm not sure how to get the Admins or Moderators to make them a sticky. Can you help me out with that, or tell me what I need to do?
> ...


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

Darrin, this is one of a very few occasions when I'm stuck for words so I'll simply say, THANK YOU, you've done a wonderful job and hopefully it will enable many newcomers to the wonderful world of routing to get an overview of the various ways in which a router can be used, most books that I've seen concentrate on table routing, which of course is important but far from the only way to use a router. The ideal situation is to have dedicated routers, one in the table, one on skis and one, a nice BIG one for hand held use with a LARGE opening so that you can SEE the cutter. 
For newcomers it's a good idea to buy one of the low cost boxes of assorted cutters and gradually replace the often used ones with quality cutters. A good selection of template guides will make many projects possible.


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## darrink (Sep 7, 2009)

Harry, thanks for the kind words, they're not really necessary, but greatly appreciated. This is not that hard to do, but the zip file you uploaded really saves time versus downloading each picture. I am a Linux guy, not that great at the code, but there is a lot of free software that you can do a lot of things with. With Windows the only way I know how to combine all of the files together into a pdf is with Adobe Acrobat full version, and it definitely at free.

I have been on many forums before, (for many different topics) and I can truly say that this is by far the best one I have come across. Not to say there are not others on the same level, I just haven't found one yet. People on this forum tend to agree to disagree when something is said that goes against what they do or believe. That tells me that the people here are genuinely great people and realize things can be done different ways and still achieve the same results. Some like the KISS way, and others go full blown bells and whistles, while others fall somewhere in between. I am more the bells and whistles kind of guy.

Publishing is definitely not my field. I have been in the cryogenic industry for the past 23 years. We deal with a lot of pictures and combine them into one neat pdf so each picture does not have to be open individually. Before I got accustomed to the pdf's, opening each one was just the way it was done. You know what they say, ignorance is bliss, and if I would have never discovered how to combine them, I would have still been opening each one individually, and would have been okay doing it.

I didn't mean to hijack the thread. I am going to do as BJ suggested and PM one of the moderators and see if they can make a sticky out of a new thread with all of the pdf's in one place.

Thanks,
Darrin


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Hi Darrin:



darrink said:


> ... People on this forum tend to agree to disagree when something is said that goes against what they do or believe. That tells me that the people here are genuinely great people and realize things can be done different ways and still achieve the same results.


You must appreciate that skis constitute only one of the 25 ways that routers can be mounted and that each of those methods, one can have a myriad of jigs and fixtures. You've barely scratched the surface.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

darrink said:


> Harry, thanks for the kind words, they're not really necessary, but greatly appreciated. This is not that hard to do, but the zip file you uploaded really saves time versus downloading each picture. I am a Linux guy, not that great at the code, but there is a lot of free software that you can do a lot of things with. With Windows the only way I know how to combine all of the files together into a pdf is with Adobe Acrobat full version, and it definitely at free.
> 
> I have been on many forums before, (for many different topics) and I can truly say that this is by far the best one I have come across. Not to say there are not others on the same level, I just haven't found one yet. People on this forum tend to agree to disagree when something is said that goes against what they do or believe. That tells me that the people here are genuinely great people and realize things can be done different ways and still achieve the same results. Some like the KISS way, and others go full blown bells and whistles, while others fall somewhere in between. I am more the bells and whistles kind of guy.
> 
> ...


Hijacked the thread, not at all Darrin, once again I must thank you for such a great job. Cryogenics, does that mean that my wife can give you a call when I drop off the perch and have you pop me into a rather cold cylinder, enabling me to return some time in the future to see a metric AMERICA?


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

allthunbs said:


> Hi Darrin:
> 
> 
> 
> You must appreciate that skis constitute only one of the 25 ways that routers can be mounted and that each of those methods, one can have a myriad of jigs and fixtures. You've barely scratched the surface.


Well, I've demonstrated with words and pictures all the methods that I know of to use routers, I'm sure that there are other members like me who are intrigued by the figure 25 and would love to see some of these methods demonstrated. Perhaps Darrin would be good enough to assist you in the posting.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

harrysin said:


> Well, I've demonstrated with words and pictures all the methods that I know of to use routers, I'm sure that there are other members like me who are intrigued by the figure 25 and would love to see some of these methods demonstrated. Perhaps Darrin would be good enough to assist you in the posting.


I wouldn't dare Harry. I remember the last time I tried to contribute the results of my research; although I will say I got off easier than Tom did.


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## rctrout (Sep 13, 2008)

McMaster-Carr and most bearing supply houses can supply rods for Thompson linear bearings. It is not cheap, but almost impossible to beat.


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## Ralph Barker (Dec 15, 2008)

allthunbs said:


> I wouldn't dare Harry. I remember the last time I tried to contribute the results of my research; although I will say I got off easier than Tom did.


Aw, come on, Ron. I'd loan you my fire-resistant suit, but it's old and made of asbestos. 

Method #26: Put mattresses on the floor, and throw the router at the work from across the room, like a painter. (from _The Abstract Routist_)


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## gav (Oct 12, 2009)

Ok I'll see if I can get us all started on the list of 25.

1) handheld freehand
2) handheld with templates
3) handheld mounted on skiis
4) vertically mounted in table
5) horizontally mounted in table
6) mounted in woodrat style mill
7) mounted on router lathe
8) mounted in copy router set up
9) mounted in router pantograph
10) over arm pin router
11) mounted in router pendulum (for creating concave surfaces)
12) mounted in cnc machine
13) mounted in planing sled
14) mounted in over head mill
15) handheld with jigs
16) mounted on guide rail (this might count as jig though )
17) mounted in my car to make it a hybrid

Ok, those are just off the top of my head.
Only 8 more to go for the rest of you.


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## gav (Oct 12, 2009)

It's been hours and still no takers on the remaining 8 :help:

There must be someone out there who can add to the list.


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## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

gav said:


> Ok I'll see if I can get us all started on the list of 25.
> 
> 1) handheld freehand
> 2) handheld with templates
> ...


I reckon that there is only one member capable of doing that and he has declined the offer. I must confess that, because hand held with and without templates is my main method, I hadn't considered the other methods that you mentioned .


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Guys

I don't get it ,I only see 3 total and maybe just two if you come down to it (hand router and the table way ) I think you can go over the deep end and list all the ways you can use one..BUT why...  25 hahahahahaha

=================


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

bobj3 said:


> 25 hahahahahaha


Precisely. It's Rocket Science.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

You crack me up, hahahahahahahahaha LOL LOL

=====



allthunbs said:


> Precisely. It's Rocket Science.


----------



## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

bobj3 said:


> You crack me up, hahahahahahahahaha LOL LOL
> 
> =====


actually I was quoting you!


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

I don't recall ever saying that But I may have said it's NOT Rocket Science ,than I say, I crack me up  LOL hahahahahahaha

=======



allthunbs said:


> actually I was quoting you!


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## gav (Oct 12, 2009)

Only 2 Bob ? Surely you must be more open minded than that.
Yes you could say all the methods used hand held are just one method, just as you could say all the methods when the router is mounted in a table is just one method.
But, if you're willing to be that general in descriptions then you may as well just say it's all one method, 'using a router'
But what about a router lathe ? I wouldn't class that as table or hand held.
A router mill where the work piece moves and the router is stationary, is neither hand held or table mounted, nor is a mill where the router moves and the work piece doesn't.

Ron, send me a pm with your 25 because I for one am interested !


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

gav said:


> ...
> 
> A router mill where the work piece moves and the router is stationary, is neither hand held or table mounted,


The function of moving a workpiece under an overhead router is a fixture, not a method. The extreme of this is Champy's table. However, Champy has combined horizontal and vertical table routing with a milling table fixture but not included an overhead router. But he has also added another twist and added angled table routing. So, that's three methods and one fixture, combined.



> nor is a mill where the router moves and the work piece doesn't.


I have defined that a method holds the router, a jig guides the router into the workpiece and a fixture slides and guides the workpiece into the router bit. Subtle differences but critical to defining ways a router is used.


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## Ralph Barker (Dec 15, 2008)

*jigs vs. fixtures*

Aren't the traditional definitions that a "jig" holds the stock, while a "fixture" holds the tool? Then, anything that moves one or the other would be a "method"? 

If so, wouldn't something that holds both, and can move either in relation to each other be a "jixture"?


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Ralph Barker said:


> Aren't the traditional definitions that a "jig" holds the stock, while a "fixture" holds the tool? Then, anything that moves one or the other would be a "method"?
> 
> If so, wouldn't something that holds both, and can move either in relation to each other be a "jixture"?


Hi Ralph:

Your definition of a "jig" agrees with mine. However, our definitions for "fixture" differ. Here's my reasoning:

With the router, you work several ways:

1. the router is supported in some way (the method -- which doesn't figure into your definitions) and the workpiece is brought to the bit

2. the workpiece is supported and the router brought to the workpiece, i.e. a dovetail jig -- the router is brought to the workpiece. In this instance, the router's handles would be the method of controlling the router.

3. I put a fixture where the workpiece is contained or controlled by a fixture and brought to the bit by the fixture.

I'm not sure what to do with "jixture?"

Is this reasonable? I've been trying to have this discussion for several years. Thank you.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Jake

You can get 25 types and more from
McMaster-Carr

from 1006 steel and up and it's all true size..
I used 4140 DHT steel Acme B7 rod...almost Impossible to bend.the same stuff they use on clamps..
=======
=======


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

allthunbs said:


> Hi Ralph:
> 
> Your definition of a "jig" agrees with mine. However, our definitions for "fixture" differ. Here's my reasoning:
> 
> ...


My dictionary defines jig, apart from a"folk dance" as "a mechanical device that holds and locates a part during machining" and fixture as "an object firmly held in place" So as not to completely confuse newcomers to routing, here are some shots that I posted a couple or more years ago.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Harry you do that so well 

========



harrysin said:


> My dictionary defines jig, apart from a"folk dance" as "a mechanical device that holds and locates a part during machining" and fixture as "an object firmly held in place" So as not to completely confuse newcomers to routing, here are some shots that I posted a couple or more years ago.


----------



## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

harrysin said:


> My dictionary defines jig, apart from a"folk dance" as "a mechanical device that holds and locates a part during machining" and fixture as "an object firmly held in place" So as not to completely confuse newcomers to routing, here are some shots that I posted a couple or more years ago.


Who's dictionary? What date? The French "gigue" fell into common use in England to put a handle to a type of dance that too was borrowed from the French. The beauty of English is that it lends itself so well to borrowing terms from other places. Speak Swahili? Sure you do. "OK" is a Swahili word.

However, your pictures do not demonstrate the difference in function between the actions that I call a fixture and those that I call a jig. You cannot use a template jig to demonstrate a fixture. That's the whole point of this exercise -- to be able to easily and simply demonstrate the difference in function between a jig and a fixture such that someone new can easily understand the difference.

A dovetail jig holds the workpiece firmly in place and the tool is applied to the workpiece. A template jig serves the same function.

A coping sled is a fixture because it holds the workpiece "firmly in place" and allows the workpiece to be applied to the bit. A template applied to a bearing would be a fixture. I can now ask "may I have an example of your template jig please" and you'll understand what I mean. Similarly, I can ask "may I have a fixture example of a Santa Clause template, please. I have a router table but not a template frame and motherboard and by my using the term fixture, you now know this and will give me a template that I can use on a bit with a bearing, on my router table.

I use these two terms, not for their classical definitions but because a method may have jigs and fixtures.

I could not find a "better" term to use so I devised a definition based on subtle differences between the classical definitions of jig and fixture. I was stuck because a dovetail jig is a most popular of jigs and thus difficult to "rename" so a workpiece holding device had to be a jig. That left the need for a term for the other type of function, so it became a fixture. I'm not reinventing the wheel, only bending the classical definition of "fixture" slightly.

All that being said, why go through this exercise? Bob3J creates jigs and fixtures. However, if I ask him for a "dovetail fixture," what is he going to give me? In his mind, a jig and a fixture are the same thing so he'll give me a jig. However, I need a fixture. 

A fixture is more versatile than a jig. I can create a coping sled and use it on my router table, table saw, band saw, even my disk sander. There are dovetail jigs that are clamped to the bench and away you go. However, there are also dovetail fixtures. These require tables to perform their function. 

Rob Rozendahl created a box-joint fixture. It will work on a router table and a table saw. I have seen box joint jigs with finger templates that will only work with routers.

If I were to ask "I need a fixture to control a curve while using an angler mounted on a pivot frame." What would you suggest? I'm using two methods combined, and a jig mounted in a fixture.

How would you define and describe the differences between a jig and a fixture and what terminology would you use? 

I note that is some of his programs, Rob Rozendahl uses both terms but I could not find them in the videos online to see how he differentiates between the two functions. 

I'm being arbitrary simply because this was created in a vacuum. When I attempted to raise this in the past, it was considered inane and relegated to jokes and derision. I'm hoping this will not happen again.


----------



## harrysin (Jan 15, 2007)

allthunbs said:


> Who's dictionary? What date? The French "gigue" fell into common use in England to put a handle to a type of dance that too was borrowed from the French. The beauty of English is that it lends itself so well to borrowing terms from other places. Speak Swahili? Sure you do. "OK" is a Swahili word.
> 
> However, your pictures do not demonstrate the difference in function between the actions that I call a fixture and those that I call a jig. You cannot use a template jig to demonstrate a fixture. That's the whole point of this exercise -- to be able to easily and simply demonstrate the difference in function between a jig and a fixture such that someone new can easily understand the difference.
> 
> ...


Call me thick, call me illiterate, but the only part of your post that I understood was "Who's dictionary? What date? "
These two photographs give you the answer.
If newcomers are following this post, perhaps they would join in and let me know if they follow and understand your detailed posts. If they do I shall consider enrolling in a night school course in English this coming autumn.


----------



## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi

I don't see the big deal 

If you ask me for Wrench or a Spanner you will get a tool that will do the job..same thing if you ask me for a dovetail jig I would hand you a tool that will do the job.
I would ask you what tool do you want to use with it a router table or a hand router.

=======


----------



## Ralph Barker (Dec 15, 2008)

allthunbs said:


> Hi Ralph:
> 
> Your definition of a "jig" agrees with mine. However, our definitions for "fixture" differ. Here's my reasoning:
> 
> ...


I think your definitions are logical, Ron. But, if they differ from those in common usage, their utility may be limited due to lack of universal adoption. 

I agree, too, that the traditional definitions ignore the "method" aspect. I'm not sure if that's a matter of the method being considered obvious, or whether that's simply left to the discretion of the craftsperson. To further confuse the issue, I'm guessing that most people lump fixtures in with jigs, making no distinction between the two. 

A few years back, there was, IIRC, a similar discussion of these definitions on the Fine Woodworking "Knots" forum. Although there was some diversity of opinions, I think a majority followed the "what's being held" concept. But, again, method was left out of the discussion. 

As to what to do with "jixture" - we're probably safe in simply discarding that one.


----------



## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

Hi Ralph:



Ralph Barker said:


> I think your definitions are logical, Ron. But, if they differ from those in common usage, their utility may be limited due to lack of universal adoption.


Therein lies the problem and one shared by almost every modern discipline. How to "coin meaningful words" for universal use that describes some esoteric concept. I recognized a situation and when I queried the membership, I came back empty. I ended up coining my own vocabulary. Thus, this discussion, not to qualify my vocabulary but to attempt to find the correct vocabulary.



> I agree, too, that the traditional definitions ignore the "method" aspect. I'm not sure if that's a matter of the method being considered obvious, or whether that's simply left to the discretion of the craftsperson.


When the use of a router was restricted to tables or hand held using templates or other jigs, the "method" aspect could be ignored. But, I've "collected" 25 ways that a router can be mounted and used that are exclusive to jigs and fixtures. How am I to refer to a pendulum method unless one has exposure to this way of mounting a router? Or, at least be aware that there are other ways to use a router. Thus, the term "method" to separate the "pendulum method" from the "table method" when one doesn't know about the "pendulum method." At least now you know that it's a way of mounting a router.



> To further confuse the issue, I'm guessing that most people lump fixtures in with jigs, making no distinction between the two.


Yes, and justifiably so. For most people, there is one way of using a router -- the way they're familiar with or the way the instruction manual says to use it. Then, people come to this forum and they find out about "The Router Workshop" and other ways of using a router and "through confusion comes understanding?"



> A few years back, there was, IIRC, a similar discussion of these definitions on the Fine Woodworking "Knots" forum. Although there was some diversity of opinions, I think a majority followed the "what's being held" concept. But, again, method was left out of the discussion.


I'm not familiar with "IIRC." Please explain.

I would expect that "Find Woodworking" is more involved with "more traditional" cabinet making methods using fixed blade technologies. There, a jig and a fixture could be considered synonymous. It is only recently that any comprehensive list of router "methods" has been assembled that requires an "adjustment" to terminology.



> As to what to do with "jixture" - we're probably safe in simply discarding that one.


However, that should be held in the "wings" in the event that we need another new term in the future.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

bobj3 said:


> Hi
> 
> I don't see the big deal
> 
> ...


But if I ask you for a dovetail fixture, what are you going to give me? Or, how would you call a dovetail "jig" that is holds the workpiece and slides across a table to be cut at the bit -- in two words or less.


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## allthunbs (Jun 22, 2008)

harrysin said:


> Call me thick, call me illiterate, but the only part of your post that I understood was "Who's dictionary? What date? "
> These two photographs give you the answer.
> If newcomers are following this post, perhaps they would join in and let me know if they follow and understand your detailed posts. If they do I shall consider enrolling in a night school course in English this coming autumn.


You're neither thick nor illiterate and no one is making any such insinuation. Neither do you need a night school course in English. 

I'm trying to determine what terminology should be applied to other ways of using a router. You are expert in the use of a router for templating. If all I knew about a router was the construction of a beam, how would you describe your discipline of templating to me?

The answer would be "another way of using a router." The next question would then be "how many ways are there of using a router?" That's what I'm trying to address.

My apologies that I was unable to better describe what I was trying to accomplish.


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## Mark (Aug 4, 2004)

I think everyone made their point here, I don't want to see anymore off-topic or unfriendly posts in here, any more unfriendly or off-topic posts will be removed. Lets keep this conversation friendly, if you guys can't do that then just drop it.


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## stanzee (Dec 9, 2010)

Really nice job.


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## stanzee (Dec 9, 2010)

Likeways makes no difference to me. The main thing is the use of routers.


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