# mlcs hss spiral bits



## gav (Oct 12, 2009)

Anyone have these bits or even just a general opinion ?
They are very cheap (practically disposable at $10), even with postage they would end up being less than half the price of the only spiral bits i can get here (festool hss spiral bits)

MLCS solid carbide router bits


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## Tempest (Jan 7, 2011)

I have some of their carbide spiral bits and they are pretty good. Don't know about their HSS bits. What are you cutting?

You can get 3 HSS bits at HF for $13 before the 20% coupon.

http://www.harborfreight.com/3-piece-spiral-mortising-router-bit-set-66733.html


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

HI Gavin

I have my share of the solid carb.spiral bits and they are great but back away from the HSS ones, unless you like the color of black and blue on bits..

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gav said:


> Anyone have these bits or even just a general opinion ?
> They are very cheap (practically disposable at $10), even with postage they would end up being less than half the price of the only spiral bits i can get here (festool hss spiral bits)
> 
> MLCS solid carbide router bits


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## Tommyt654 (Apr 5, 2009)

I don't really care about the color only the cut and I have used the ones from HF on occasion and have had no problems with them at all. I would venture to say they are prolly the same manufacturer as others but just rebranded under another name and price. For the money(I paid $6.99) they are well worth the price as most of the wood I used them on were pine and the cut thru that like butta. on hardwood they worked well also.


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## jschaben (Jun 21, 2009)

Thing that has me kinda tempted me is they are available in 5/8" and 3/4" CD. Haven't tempted me enough to spring for 'em yet though


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi

HSS steel can't hold the cutting edge, heat will kill any cutting tool. 

======


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## Ralph Barker (Dec 15, 2008)

The so-called catch-22 with bits is that, at least in theory, a sharper edge can be put on HSS than on carbide. But, the HSS edge is more prone to dulling quickly than carbide. So, a lot depends on what is being cut, and how the cut is being made. It should also be noted that the solid carbide bits are much more brittle than HSS. As such, particularly with the smaller bits, cuts need to be made gingerly to avoid breakage.


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

HI Ralph

When was the last time you tried to sharpen a spiral bit , I have tried and I got some great looking short dull tent stakes  I think one that trys that job will have a router bit on one end a fool on on the other end  spiral bits are on the very high end of router bit design..

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Ralph Barker said:


> The so-called catch-22 with bits is that, at least in theory, a sharper edge can be put on HSS than on carbide. But, the HSS edge is more prone to dulling quickly than carbide. So, a lot depends on what is being cut, and how the cut is being made. It should also be noted that the solid carbide bits are much more brittle than HSS. As such, particularly with the smaller bits, cuts need to be made gingerly to avoid breakage.


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## gav (Oct 12, 2009)

I have 2 festool hss spiral bits, and yes they did get too hot at some point and have changed colour, but they are still very sharp and able to perform their tasks. For the price of them though, I am disappointed. I think I paid close to 80 euros for the 2 !!
These harbour freight ones have caught my eye but the image of them does not match the description.
It says they are 1/4 inch shank, but the picture shows 3 different shank sizes, an I don't think you would have a 1/2 inch cutter on a 1/4 inch shank !?

Tommy, can you confirm the shank sizes for me ?


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## Ralph Barker (Dec 15, 2008)

bobj3 said:


> HI Ralph
> 
> When was the last time you tried to sharpen a spiral bit , I have tried and I got some great looking short dull tent stakes  I think one that trys that job will have a router bit on one end a fool on on the other end  spiral bits are on the very high end of router bit design..
> 
> =========


Bob, I didn't suggest that anyone should attempt to sharpen the bit. I simply stated that, _in theory_, HSS can be made sharper than carbide (by the manufacturer).


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## Tommyt654 (Apr 5, 2009)

1/4" x 3",1/2" x 3 1/4", 3/8" x 3" M2 HSS Double Flute, RH Twist 65 deg. up cut and draw angle. They work great for mortise and box joints IMO


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi

Note the shank size 

" * Precision ground up-cut spiral design allows maximum material removal while keeping bits free of chips and shavings
* M2 high speed steel runs cooler, lasts longer
* Includes sizes 1/4" x 3", 1/2" x 3-1/4" and 3/8" x 3"
* *1/4" shank*

Double flute, right hand twist design"

3 Piece Spiral Mortising Router Bit Set

It sounds like the cheap S & D dill bits almost .

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Tommyt654 said:


> 1/4" x 3",1/2" x 3 1/4", 3/8" x 3" M2 HSS Double Flute, RH Twist 65 deg. up cut and draw angle. They work great for mortise and box joints IMO


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## gav (Oct 12, 2009)

I'll take tommy's word that they're all different shank sizes like the picture.

Bob, do you really think you could have a 1/2 inch cutter on a 1/4 inch shank ?


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## istracpsboss (Sep 14, 2008)

Why not, Gav? Lots of my bits are bigger than my shank sizes. Bob's reference to S+D bits, which you might know as blacksmiths' bits, covers drill bits up to a couple of inches on shanks that are rarely more than 1/2".

Admittedly sharpening spiral HSS bits is not something for a simple D/E bench grinder, but is quite feasible on a tool & cutter grinder. If I ever finish my Quorn, it was designed for such things.

Woodrat actually recommend and supply HSS cutters, although I've none with mine, but I'd be wary of the material I used them on if I did. Certainly not on MDF or plywood.
OTOH, one of Woodrat's reasons is that they can make much more delicate cutters in HSS, giving dovetail angles much nearer to hand cut ones, than is possible with TC. 

Cheers

Peter


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## gav (Oct 12, 2009)

I also have normal straight bits that have cutters larger than the shank but I have never seen a spiral bit that has a cutting diameter twice that of the shank.
Close to all the spiral bits I've viewed have cutters equal or less than the shank.
Maybe it's possible to have a 1/2 inch cutter on 1/4 inch shank, but I have looked at a lot of sprial bits online and never seen anything like it.

Would you be interested in getting the HF ones Peter ? Postage is cheaper spread over more items. I bought some bits from jvl and had them sent here via a friend in switzerland and didn't get stuck with any import costs. Pretty sure we can do the same from US.


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## OPG3 (Jan 9, 2011)

(GENERAL OPINION) I have never used these bits. I will say, though; $10.00 is truly a "disposable" price for a quality bit. It is an easy matter to sharpen drill bits - because all of the cutting is done on the tip, however; the tip is only a teeny-weeny fraction of the cutting edge on a spiral router bit. Buy the bits, if you need spiral bits! Why would one take the time to sharpen a "disposable router bit". GOOD LUCK! *OPG3*


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Gavin

The bits on the web page may not be 1/4" shanks size like they state but many can't use the 3/8" bit so it's just one more bit in the bit tool box..so you get two bits made of HSS ..for that price...that you can use..

I will say I have 3 bits made out of HSS (for the JessEm mill slot machine) but they suggest the max. speed of 500-600 rpm's for them..I would never spin them at 16,000 rpm's I know what they will look like in just short time..

1/2" cutter and bigger on a 1/4" shank is no big deal you will see them all the time..

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gav said:


> I also have normal straight bits that have cutters larger than the shank but I have never seen a spiral bit that has a cutting diameter twice that of the shank.
> Close to all the spiral bits I've viewed have cutters equal or less than the shank.
> Maybe it's possible to have a 1/2 inch cutter on 1/4 inch shank, but I have looked at a lot of sprial bits online and never seen anything like it.
> 
> Would you be interested in getting the HF ones Peter ? Postage is cheaper spread over more items. I bought some bits from jvl and had them sent here via a friend in switzerland and didn't get stuck with any import costs. Pretty sure we can do the same from US.


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## gav (Oct 12, 2009)

'1/2" cutter and bigger on a 1/4" shank is no big deal you will see them all the time'

Really ? I still can't find any trace of such a spiral bit.
Can you post a link ?


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

HI gav

Not the norm on spiral bits but the norm on carb.tip bits. but the other way around is norm on spiral bits ..

http://www.holbren.com/spiral-downcut-hss/

http://www.holbren.com/spiral-upcut-hss/

http://www.holbren.com/spiral-upcut/

http://magnate.net/index.cfm?event=showCategory&theID=39
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gav said:


> '1/2" cutter and bigger on a 1/4" shank is no big deal you will see them all the time'
> 
> Really ? I still can't find any trace of such a spiral bit.
> Can you post a link ?


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## Tommyt654 (Apr 5, 2009)

FWIW, I posted some pics of them miked and the packaging advise's not to use above 30K rpm, Thats good advice for most any router bit". However I have found these work best at about 10-12k rpm and for the money are hard to beat. Others here will continue to downplay HF tools and that's their perogative but these to me are inexpensive throwaway bits for mortising and box joints and do the job. If thats all you need and for the money they will do the work I would give them my TOMMYT654 seal of approvel for that price I can buy several sets and be happy with them


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## istracpsboss (Sep 14, 2008)

gav said:


> Would you be interested in getting the HF ones Peter ? Postage is cheaper spread over more items. I bought some bits from jvl and had them sent here via a friend in switzerland and didn't get stuck with any import costs. Pretty sure we can do the same from US.


Hi Gav

They are cheap enough for a punt. I might need to get a 1/4" collet for my DW625 as I'm thinking of them for using with that in the Woodrat for mortising. The only thing I've got a 1/4" collet for is the little Einhell and I use that for handheld stuff. It came with 6mm and 8mm collets but they sold the same model in the UK with a 1/4" collet so I got a couple sent over.

This is what the Woodrat site says about HSS:

The Finest Razor-Sharp High-Speed Steel

Myth: High-Speed Steel (HSS) bits lose their edge and have been superseded by Tungsten Carbide Tipped (TCT) bits. Nobody uses HSS anymore.

Fact: It’s true that TCT bits last a very long time. However HSS bits can be easily sharpened to a much finer edge using a Diamond Whetstone. Because they are engineered from a single piece of steel, HSS bits can be crafted to match the traditional shape of a hand-cut dovetail even at miniature sizes. Jigs that rely on TCT bits simply cannot produce this quality of work.

We also produce a range of straight bits in diameters from 1.6mm, for miniature Finger Joints, up to 12.7mm (1/2") for Pin Cutting and Tenoning.

One benefit often overlooked is that sharper bits can be run at lower router speeds, and lower speed means less noise. HSS = Quieter routing.



Of course, TCT bits are useful for cutting man-made boards and you can use them on the 'Rat with no bother. In fact, you can use virtually any router bit.


Postscript: In his book Woodworker's Guide to Dovetails, Ernie Conover says: "While amateur and commercial users think that carbide is superior to HSS this is not so. They are still used by industry because of their clean cutting of hardwoods and their ease of sharpening. This legend probably persists because years ago sets of inferior cast HSS bits were offered as premiums with routers. A good HSS bit will cut hardwood better because it can be ground to more severe rake angles than carbide."

Whilst this is all very well, the Woodrat HSS bits are straight bladed, making honing much easier.

I've no-one coming over from the States before the summer so they would need posting. Funnily enough when I was in Capodistria the other day I was thinking of checking what a post box costs there, but it would only make sense for Eu stuff.

Cheers

Peter


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## istracpsboss (Sep 14, 2008)

Hi Gav

I'm definitely up for it. I do have a 1/4" collet for the DeWalt.

Cheers

Peter


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## Mike Gager (Jan 14, 2009)

bobj3 said:


> The bits on the web page may not be 1/4" shanks size like they state but many can't use the 3/8" bit so it's just one more bit in the bit tool box..so you get two bits made of HSS ..for that price...that you can use..
> 
> ========


bob they make 3/8" to 1/2" collet adapters for the 3/8" bits

MLCS Woodworking Adaptor Bushings and Ball Bearing Guides


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Mike

Huuummm ,I didn't know that  that's good to know.. are the adapters harder than the bits..

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Mike Gager said:


> bob they make 3/8" to 1/2" collet adapters for the 3/8" bits
> 
> MLCS Woodworking Adaptor Bushings and Ball Bearing Guides


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## bobj3 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Mike

Just pulling your leg a little bit, I have two Full sets of adapters from MLCS, I use the 3/8" one all the time to hold my drill chuck in my router , along with the brass guides and the metric drill bits to drill the holes for the metric size shelf support pins. 
By the way the adapters are harder than the HSS router bits (spring steel adapters)

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## Racer2007 (Nov 3, 2010)

gav said:


> I have 2 festool hss spiral bits, and yes they did get too hot at some point and have changed colour, but they are still very sharp and able to perform their tasks. For the price of them though, I am disappointed. I think I paid close to 80 euros for the 2 !!
> These harbour freight ones have caught my eye but the image of them does not match the description.
> It says they are 1/4 inch shank, but the picture shows 3 different shank sizes, an I don't think you would have a 1/2 inch cutter on a 1/4 inch shank !?
> 
> Tommy, can you confirm the shank sizes for me ?


Gav, thats the same thing I noticed in the picture. And my local HF didn't have any in stock to check out last week. Maybe the new one opening up closer will have them, plus maybe some good Grand Opening deals as well.
3 Piece Spiral Mortising Router Bit Set


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## Tommyt654 (Apr 5, 2009)

I think ya'll misreading the add as printed. What they mean is 3/8 x 3 1/4 inch not 1/4 inch shank and the photos I posted clearly show that. What gives, can folks not see that micrometer in the picture? Are they not showing up for anyone other than me? Hopefully these pics will clarify things for good


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## istracpsboss (Sep 14, 2008)

Got it ! Thanks for the clarification. 3/8" is a rum size for a router bit. I don't think I've seen 3/8" shank router bits before.

Cheers

Peter


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## Tommyt654 (Apr 5, 2009)

Not a problem,They actually work quite well for the money and with a 20% off coupon widely available they are cheap enough to get sevreral sets Peter


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## Racer2007 (Nov 3, 2010)

Tommy the package is marked correctly but the online ad does state 1/4" shank.
I also just found 1/4" with 1/4"shank and 3/8" and 1/2" with 1/2" shank 3 packs at the newly opened HF in my area for about $10 to $12 . they are not going to be the longest lasting bits but if your going to be cutting MDF or plywood that can be tough on the bits then these are better than trashing your more costly bits.


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## Phil P (Jul 25, 2010)

istracpsboss said:


> 3/8" is a rum size for a router bit. I don't think I've seen 3/8" shank router bits before.


Very old standard from years back, Stanley used to sell loads of them. deWalt still list a 3/8in collet for the DW625/DW624/DW626/MOF177e/MOF98/MOF77/3338/3339/T10/T11, reference DE6275. Another good reason to go MOF177 IMHO! :yes4:



istracpsboss said:


> Myth: High-Speed Steel (HSS) bits lose their edge and have been superseded by Tungsten Carbide Tipped (TCT) bits. Nobody uses HSS anymore.
> 
> Fact: It’s true that TCT bits last a very long time. However HSS bits can be easily sharpened to a much finer edge using a Diamond Whetstone. Because they are engineered from a single piece of steel, HSS bits can be crafted to match the traditional shape of a hand-cut dovetail even at miniature sizes. Jigs that rely on TCT bits simply cannot produce this quality of work.


Yes, but..... HSS spirals (in fact any spirals) can't be sharpened at home. It requires a special automated grinder to do the job. And the problem is that HSS spirals are generally so cheap that they're simply not worth sharpening. Ergo they are in effect a disposable product. I've bought HSS spirals from Clico in Sheffield in the past (it used to be their biggest product by far - used extensively in the aerospace industry on aluminium, plastics and composites) and they were certainly dirt cheap against SC (solid carbide) bits. What they don't do well is anything with aggresively abrasive adhesives in them - MDF, particle and flake boards, plywoods, etc for which carbide cutters are more appropriate

Regards

Phil


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## istracpsboss (Sep 14, 2008)

istracpsboss said:


> Hi Gav
> 
> Funnily enough when I was in Capodistria the other day I was thinking of checking what a post box costs there, but it would only make sense for Eu stuff.
> 
> ...


Got one ! They are free Gav. Worth checking the Post Office in the nearest Slovenian town over the border. I filled in a form and was given a key. My one is near enough that a Chinese take-away bought over the road from it was still warm when I got home !

Cheers

Peter


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## istracpsboss (Sep 14, 2008)

Phil P said:


> Very old standard from years back, Stanley used to sell loads of them. deWalt still list a 3/8in collet for the DW625/DW624/DW626/MOF177e/MOF98/MOF77/3338/3339/T10/T11, reference DE6275. Another good reason to go MOF177 IMHO! :yes4:
> 
> 
> Yes, but..... HSS spirals (in fact any spirals) can't be sharpened at home. It requires a special automated grinder to do the job. And the problem is that HSS spirals are generally so cheap that they're simply not worth sharpening. Ergo they are in effect a disposable product. I've bought HSS spirals from Clico in Sheffield in the past (it used to be their biggest product by far - used extensively in the aerospace industry on aluminium, plastics and composites) and they were certainly dirt cheap against SC (solid carbide) bits. What they don't do well is anything with aggresively abrasive adhesives in them - MDF, particle and flake boards, plywoods, etc for which carbide cutters are more appropriate
> ...


Thanks Phil. If I ever finish making my Quorn T+C grinder I can do spirals on that.

Cheers

Peter


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## RMCE (Jul 30, 2012)

I was having the some issues with HHS spiral bits. I wanted to sharpen them myself, so I bought a 7 axis tool grinder and now I spend more time sharpening bits for others than I spend cutting wood. I make a little $$ and I always hve sharp bits in my shop


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